1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 21st, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 3 Walter Myrka ) (np) 4 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 5 Michelle Pong ) (np) 6 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) 21 22 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 23 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 24 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 25 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 3 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 4 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 5 6 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 7 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 8 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 9 Ian McGilp ) (np) 10 Annie Leeks ) (np) 11 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 12 Robyn Trask ) (np) 13 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 14 15 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 16 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 17 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 18 Julian Roy ) (np) 19 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 20 Linda Chen ) (np) 21 Chris Darnay ) (np) 22 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 23 Sunil Mathai ) 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 4 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 5 6 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 7 Matthew Horner ) (np) 8 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 9 10 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 11 Craig Mills ) (np) 12 Megan Mackey ) (np) 13 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 14 Erin Tully ) (np) 15 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 16 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 17 Patrick Greco ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) 21 Melissa Panjer ) 22 Adam Goodman ) (np) 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 Mark Anthony Wright, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 231 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1085 Curriculum Vitae of Mark. A. Wright. 10 4 P-1086 D/Insp. Mark Wright notebook entries, 5 1993 to 1996. 29 6 P-1087 D/Insp. Mark Wright handwritten notes, 7 Feb. 26/'95, Feb. 28/'95, June 28, 29, 8 30/'95 and May 18/'95. 30 9 P-1088 Document Number 2001523. Fax from Mark 10 Wright to Inspector John Carson, July 20, 11 1993. 42 12 P-1089 Document Number 2001525. Letter to 13 Registrar from D/Sgt. M. A. Wright, 14 number 5901, OPP Petrolia re. Complaint 15 against Mr. Scott Ewart, July 24/'93. 48 16 P-1090 Document Number 2001528. Letter from 17 Registrar , Collections Agency Act to 18 Det. Sgt. M. A. Wright , July 23/'93. 49 19 P-1091 Document Number 1003575, Memo to Dale 20 McConaghy from Teri Kirk Re: Park 21 Bailiffs: CRAT Matter and Ipperwash 22 and attached Decision, Sept. 14/'95. 52 23 P-1092 Document Number 2004116. Interview of 24 Mark Wright, August 24/'93. 64 25


1 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1093 Document Number 2000341. Lambton 4 County Training Manual, including 5 miscellaneous memoranda. Originated 6 by Officers in charge including 7 Mark Wright, June 1994. 82 8 P-1094 Document Number 2001356. Letter from K. 9 Bouwman to Superintendent of OPP re. 10 Citizen's letter, Sept. 08/'94. 93 11 P-1095 Document Number 2000860. Scribe notes, 12 CFB Ipperwash Incident, July 29/'95. 112 13 P-1096 Document Number 2001695. OPP Proposed 14 Median Release re. Public Safety, August 15 01/'95. 181 16 P-1097 Document Number 2001696. Final Press 17 Release re. Public Safety August 02/'95 182 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Commission calls 13 as its next witness, Detective Inspector Mark Wright. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Wright. 15 MR. MARK WRIGHT: Good morning. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, do you prefer to 17 swear on the Bible or affirm. 18 MR. MARK WRIGHT: Yes, the Bible. 19 20 MARK ANTHONY WRIGHT, Sworn 21 22 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Mr. Wright, I understand -- or 24 Detective Inspector Wright, I understand you're forty- 25 seven (47) years old?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And that you joined the Ontario 3 Provincial Police on April 20th, 1980? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And at Tab 1 of the book in front of 6 you there is a curriculum vitae; is that a copy of your 7 curriculum vitae? 8 A: Yes, it is, sir. 9 Q: I would ask that be marked as the 10 next exhibit please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1085, Your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1085. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1085: Curriculum Vitae of Mark. A. 15 Wright. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And as part of your training, what 19 education if any, did you receive with respect to the 20 history of the First Nations in Ontario or in Southern 21 Ontario? 22 A: As part of my police training? 23 Q: Yes, back in 1980. 24 A: I don't recall any specific training 25 in 1980 with respect to those issues.


1 Q: And what knowledge, if any, did you 2 have of the history of First Nations people in Southern 3 Ontario, if any, prior to joining the OPP? 4 A: Well, I grew up in St. Thomas and I 5 have an uncle who would come over from the United States, 6 he had a masters in Canadian history. 7 And he would take my brother, I'm a twin, 8 my brother and I and his two (2) boys and he would take 9 us into what he referred to as 'Indian country'. 10 And we would go to -- we travelled in this 11 part of Ontario, we went to Kettle Point, we were at 12 Chippewa Muncey, down at different monuments and he would 13 explain to us the -- the history of -- of those -- those 14 settlements and with particular interest in -- in the 15 conflict of 1812 between the Americans and the Canadians. 16 And I learned from him about the treaties 17 that the Canadian Government or the colonies, at that 18 time I guess, engaged in with the First Nations people in 19 which to fight the Americans with respect to the invasion 20 of Canada. 21 And I understood from him that this -- 22 this was a partnership between the First Nations people 23 and the -- the people of Canada with respect to this sort 24 of arrangement and as a result of that, that certain 25 treaties were signed and land was ceded to First Nations


1 people. 2 So I -- I felt I had fairly reasonable 3 understanding of -- of the situation. I mean, I was a 4 young boy into a young teenager. And it wasn't strictly 5 First Nations trips; he took us to the Donalee (phonetic) 6 cemeteries and, you know, I was fortunate that my uncle 7 took the time to do that with us. 8 So I had that kind of a upbringing with 9 respect to that. 10 Q: Okay. And once you joined the 11 Ontario Provincial Police, I understand from 1980 to 12 1990, you were a Provincial Constable with the Glencoe 13 Detachment? 14 A: Yes, sir, that's correct. 15 Q: And your duties included general 16 policing for West Middlesex County? 17 A: Yes, sir, that's correct. 18 Q: And part of that included the 19 Chippewa and Muncey First Nation territories? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And can you tell us -- tell the 22 Commissioner what the -- your duties included with 23 respect to Chippewa and Muncey? 24 A: Well, it was what we would call 25 general patrol. There were First Nations constables


1 working on the territory down on Chippewa Muncey and we 2 worked very closely with them. Glencoe Detachment at 3 that time was somewhere around twelve (12) or fourteen 4 (14) officers. 5 And we supplemented the policing down on 6 those territories and we doubled up with the First 7 Nations officers many times on -- on routine patrol and 8 we answered just about every type of occurrence you could 9 think of down on those territories. 10 Q: And I understand that in 1987 you 11 received a Bachelor of Arts from the University of 12 Western Ontario? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And did you have a Major and what was 15 your Major? 16 A: It was just General BA with -- it was 17 basically history and physical education was what I was 18 interested in. 19 Q: And in 1988, you were promoted to 20 Sergeant? 21 A: Well, in 1988 I passed a promotional 22 exam that made me eligible for the Sergeant position. It 23 wasn't until 1990 that I actually received my promotion; 24 was transferred to Sombra Detachment. 25 Q: And so when you became a Sergeant in


1 1990, you were transferred to Sombra Detachment and 2 became the -- a shift supervisor? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And you were at Sombra Detachment 5 from 1990 to 1993? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And Sombra Detachment is located near 8 Sarnia? 9 A: Yes. It's down river from -- from 10 Sarnia, west of Sarnia I would call it, if you consider 11 the lake to be north, and it's also a general duties 12 detachment and also included, as part of its patrol area, 13 Walpole Island First Nation. 14 Q: And I understand that the river that 15 Sombra is on is the St. Clair River? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And if you could go to page 2 of Ex - 18 - the Exhibit P-1085, your CV. The -- your role -- can 19 you just tell the Commissioner what a shift supervisor's 20 principle duties are? 21 A: Well, a Sergeant, that's the rank I 22 was at the time, is a first line supervisor and you're -- 23 you're on patrol with a platoon of Provincial Constables 24 and you provide supervision for them, frontline 25 supervision to those officers in respect to the duties


1 that take place during a regular tour of duty. 2 Also included that -- when -- that would 3 be performance reviews and mentoring and counselling if 4 that was required, and assisting in investigations. 5 Q: And a platoon would typ -- typically 6 be how many officers in a period 1990 to 1993? 7 A: At Sombra Detachment a platoon would 8 be approximately six (6) -- six (6) officers. But that - 9 - that wouldn't include the First Nations officers that 10 were on Walpole. I didn't directly supervise them at the 11 time, but we would be working with them. 12 Q: And I understand that in addition to 13 your duties as a shift supervisor you acted as the number 14 1 district emergency response team leader in 1992 and 15 1993? 16 A: Yes, I was -- I initially started as 17 the 2IC of the Emergency Response Team in what was then 18 Number 1 District and then with the promotion and 19 transfer of the -- the ERT team leader I became the 20 Emergency Response Team Leader for a time. 21 Q: Okay. And you acted as the 22 Detachment Commander at Sombra during the leave of the 23 Staff Sergeant Commander? 24 A: Yes, there were three (3) sergeants 25 at that detachment and we would take turns in an -- in an


1 orderly rotation when the Detachment commander was off to 2 supervise the Detachment as a whole. 3 Q: And your duties also included being 4 the Joint Course Coordinator NCO Workshop Number 1 5 District Chatham. What does that refer to? 6 A: That was a major overhaul of this 7 general supervision within the district itself and there 8 was a committee struck to go over what were the specific 9 duties of frontline supervisors and to provide training, 10 some pretty in-depth training with regards to that and I 11 took part in that. 12 Q: And I also note that you were the 13 Walpole Island First Nation Police Liaison Officer? 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 16 what that involved? 17 A: Yes, well, I've watched some of the 18 Inquiry and I'm -- I'm aware that you're aware of the 19 relationship between the OPP and the First Nations 20 policing with respect to how we were involved with the 21 monitoring of that program, so I was -- wasn't going to 22 go into that. I'll just deal with my position as a 23 liaison officer. 24 Q: Certainly. Tell us what you did as 25 Liaison Officer. And it was really -- you acted under


1 the -- with respect in that role as part of the First 2 Nations Policing -- 3 A: Program. 4 Q: -- Program? 5 A: Yes, that's correct and I -- I was 6 the liaison between the OPP Detachment and the -- and the 7 Walpole Island Police Force on -- on the territory. And 8 that was to provide a link, a formal link between the OPP 9 Detachment and that First Nations Detachment or police 10 office. 11 And my duties were varied. I assisted the 12 supervisor. There was a supervisor, and I think three 13 (3) -- three (3) First Nations constables at the time, 14 and I would assist him with the production of a duty 15 roster, assisting him with doing his month ends; all the 16 administrative work, monitoring the overtime, helping him 17 in ordering supplies, uniforms, providing courses for 18 them. 19 And in addition to that I was part of the 20 Walpole Island Civil Authority Committee and I was the 21 OPP representative on that committee. And that's much 22 like a police committee. 23 It said the Chief of Police would be on 24 that. I was there. There would be a representative -- an 25 elected official from the Band would carry the portfolio


1 for that civil authority and then other members of the 2 public would form the rest of that committee. 3 And -- and on that committee we dealt 4 with, basically, the policing issues as they impact -- 5 impacted upon the people of Walpole Island, and that was 6 public complaints and internal complaint and how they -- 7 hours of service and the relationship between the OPP and 8 the -- the First Nations police unit there at the time. 9 And in particular we were interested 10 during my time there was -- was with getting more 11 officers for Walpole Island because they were -- they 12 were certainly understaffed with respect to the number of 13 occurrences they did. So I became involved in -- I know 14 Mr. Joseph Gilbert was here several weeks ago and alluded 15 to a presentation in regards to an attempt to get more 16 officers on the Walpole Island Force. 17 And I was the author of that document for 18 that presentation where I showed that the number of 19 occurrences at the Walpole Island officers did as 20 compared to the Sombra OPP Detachment demonstrated that 21 clearly Walpole Island was short of officers. And we 22 were successful in eventually getting four (4) additional 23 officers to come to the -- the Walpole Island. 24 And I set up the -- well the entire 25 process by which we hired them; the advertisement and the


1 -- the production of the Board questions and organizing 2 the Board itself and I was involved in the -- in the -- 3 in the -- the oral interviews of the candidates. 4 Q: And that resulted in four (4) 5 additional First Nations constables on Walpole Island? 6 A: Yes. And I don't want to -- it's not 7 like it went from seven (7) to four (4). I mean there 8 was -- there was I think at that max there was maybe -- 9 and this is going quite some time ago but I think there 10 was maybe five (5) of them there with the supervisor. So 11 people were leaving and we were bringing other people on. 12 But, you know, it was -- it was productive 13 in that we got -- we were able to obtain brand new 14 officers there. 15 Q: And I understand as well that as part 16 of your duties, you liaised with the Band Chief on 17 matters dealing with the OPP and First Nations police 18 issues? 19 A: Yes. The Chief at the time was Mr. 20 Gilbert. I got to know him very well. He was an 21 exceptional -- he is an exceptional individual as far as 22 I'm concerned and I very much enjoyed my time and 23 interaction with him. 24 We also had Mr. Dean Isaac, who I think is 25 the Chief down there now, also provided us -- myself and


1 the rest of my Detachment Members at Sombra Detachment, a 2 day of training with respect to First Nations issues at 3 the Cultural Centre there one day. And that was part of 4 something that I organized as the liaison officer. 5 Q: So that was a training with respect 6 to -- you're referring to Dean Jacobs I think? 7 A: I -- yes. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I believe that's who I said did I 10 not? 11 Q: No. You -- Dean Isaacs. 12 A: Oh, thank you. Yes, I meant Dean 13 Jacobs. 14 Q: And Chief Jacobs organized the one 15 (1) day of training for all of the officers at Sombra 16 Detachment? 17 A: Yeah. The entire Detachment. My 18 recollection is the entire Detachment went and it was 19 very informative. 20 Q: And -- and that related to, about the 21 history of Walpole Island? 22 A: Yeah, he talked about Walpole Island 23 but he -- he talked more in the general sense of a First 24 Nations community. You know, I -- I recall being quite 25 struck with the information he gave us with respect to


1 that Indian Agent and the control that he wielded, I 2 guess, over the First Nations community. 3 I didn't have any idea of the power that 4 that individual had over the people of -- of a Reserve. 5 Q: And then as part of your duties as 6 the liaison officer, you assisted with respect -- the 7 Walpole Island First Nation police officers with respect 8 to serious criminal investigations? 9 A: Yes. Absolutely. That -- that 10 wasn't so much my position as a liaison officer, you 11 know, that had something to do with it as well, but in 12 addition that I was a first line super -- a front-line 13 supervisor at Sombra Detachment. 14 And we would -- we would work hand in hand 15 with those officers. We had a very close successful 16 working relationship with the officer of Walpole Island. 17 Q: And you, as well, facilitated the -- 18 obtaining police related courses for the Walpole Island, 19 the First Nation police officers? 20 A: Yes. That would be part of my 21 duties. I was the advocate as far as they were concerned 22 or I was concerned with regards to getting them 23 additional courses. 24 Q: And I understand from 1993 to June of 25 1995 you were a Detective Sergeant Area Crime Supervisor


1 and can you tell us -- the Commissioner of what your 2 duties were with respect to that? 3 A: Yes. I was -- in January of 1993 I 4 was designated as an Area Crime Supervisor. There was a 5 brand new program within the OPP called the Crime 6 Management Program and that program was such that they -- 7 they identified a -- a frontline supervisor, sergeant, to 8 be responsible for serious criminal occurrences which 9 they defined as benchmark crimes, and my area of 10 responsibility was all of Lambton County that was policed 11 by the OPP. 12 So I went from being a shift supervisor at 13 Sombra Detachment to being the area crime sergeant or 14 detective sergeant that would cover the Detachments of 15 Sombra, Petrolia, Forest and Grand Bend, summer when that 16 was up and running. 17 Q: And so you're responsible for the 18 major crimes in that whole area? 19 A: Yes, and then -- and in addition to 20 that -- that -- that linked me to Kettle Point First 21 Nations territory because there was a police service on 22 that territory as well, and I would provide assistance, 23 when requested, to that force. 24 Q: Okay. And in 1993, do you recall who 25 the Chief of the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation


1 police service was? 2 A: I believe it was Miles Bressette. 3 Miles and I had first come to know each other, he was a 4 First Nations constable on Chippewa Muncey when I was a 5 constable in Glencoe -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- back in the early '80's. 8 Q: So you had known -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- the -- Mr. Bressette for some 11 years? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then we'll come back to this, but 14 you were -- as you know -- we all know, you were involved 15 with the -- in Ipperwash -- the West Ipperwash beach land 16 claim, it's -- and -- and Ipperwash Park -- the Base and 17 the Provincial Park, but I understand that you were 18 promoted to Detective Staff Sergeant September 2002, and 19 in August 2003 you were promoted to Detective Inspector? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you've listed on the fourth page 22 of your CV the involvement you've had with a number of 23 First Nations from 1993 to the present, including 24 Moraviantown First Nation, Walpole Island First Nation, 25 the Sarnia Reserve, Chippewa and Muncey First Nation,


1 Oneida First Nation and Six Nations Territories; is that 2 correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I note as well, you've taken a 5 number of courses and they're listed on the first page of 6 Exhibit P-1085. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Now, with respect to Kettle and Stony 9 Point First Nation, the -- and your inter-reaction with 10 the Chief of the -- Miles Bressette, can you tell us 11 what, from -- was your understanding of the relationship 12 between the Forest Detachment and the Kettle Point police 13 -- Kettle and Stony Point police? 14 A: My recollection, sir, is that it was 15 at an administrative level. There was somewhat of a 16 antagonistic relationship on the ground, if I may use 17 that term, with respect to the officers. 18 There was -- we enjoyed, as far as I was 19 concerned, the OPP officers and the First Nations 20 officers, a very good working relationship. And that 21 would also include our -- my personal working 22 relationship with Miles Bressette and I think the other 23 sergeants there as well. 24 But as I recall what was going on there at 25 the time is that Miles was attempting to arrange in such


1 a way that he would report to general headquarters as 2 opposed to going through Forest Detachment. 3 The normal course would be for the local 4 First Nations police Detachment would go -- would either 5 go through the First Nations' liaison officer and/or the 6 Detachment Commander and the flow would -- would move 7 that way with respect to the chain of command or any 8 requests through the local Detachment and up through to 9 General Headquarters and -- 10 Q: And that's with respect to resources 11 to assist the -- the operation of the police service? 12 A: Right. Resources and -- and 13 equipment. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And I -- I think Miles was, you know, 16 strictly trying to assert some autonomy with respect to 17 the -- the Detachment that he was running so that he 18 could report directly to the First Nations Policing 19 Program in I guess that would still be Toronto at the 20 time in -- in '93, '94, '95. 21 Q: Before the move to Orillia? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And prior to the summer of 1995, or 24 excuse me, prior to May of 1993 had you been involved in 25 any blockades or occupations?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And were you the -- were you involved 3 in a -- a bridge problem at Walpole Island? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what was that? 6 A: I don't recall the date but I recall 7 the incident was that there were -- there was an 8 allegation that a number of individuals from Walpole 9 Island were going to take control of the swing bridge. 10 There's only one (1) way onto Walpole Island and that is 11 from the mainland is -- and that's by a bridge that -- 12 that swings when operated in that manner. 13 And there was a concern that a number of 14 people were going to take control of that bridge and the 15 -- my recollection is the Chief of the Band requested OPP 16 assistance with respect to dealing with this matter. And 17 I attended to deal with that situation with Staff 18 Sergeant Lacroix and then eventually then-Inspector 19 Carson became involved because I recall post incident 20 Inspector Carson and I attended a -- a meeting with the 21 people who were involved in this situation in 22 Wallaceburg. 23 Q: And as a result was the situation -- 24 was there a blockade at the bridge or -- 25 A: No, I would say there wasn't and it


1 was -- the incident was resolved in a peaceful manner 2 and they -- they -- the people involved certainly had 3 some issues by my recollection is the bridge was never 4 blocked. 5 Q: And prior to September 1995 had you 6 any experience acting as a negotiator in a hostage or a 7 barricade situation? 8 A: No, I haven't since or before or ever 9 have I had any experience in that. 10 Q: And what about acting as a negotiator 11 generally? Do you have any experience other than -- 12 A: As a negotiator? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Any -- no, not any -- nothing formal. 15 I mean because of my particular job I would, the odd 16 time, find myself at a barricaded person occurrence and 17 while awaiting for the negotiators to attend I would be 18 forced to engage in conversation with the individual. 19 But I tried to stray away from that because it's not in 20 our policy and I'm not trained to do that. 21 Q: Now, what -- before we proceed can 22 you tell us, as a police officer you made notes? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what was your practice with 25 respect to making your notes in the period 1993, 1994,


1 1995? 2 A: Well, generally speaking, as a matter 3 of practice I would make my notes as soon as practicable 4 immediately following the incident where I felt that it 5 was noteworthy and that notes were required. 6 Q: And in front of you there is a blue 7 binder of notes that cover the period 1993 to 1996. And 8 the -- these notes -- does the book contain your notes, 9 Detective Inspector Wright? 10 A: Photocopies of my notes, yes, sir. 11 Q: And the notes have been organized to 12 pull out matters -- to include matters relating to the 13 Ipperwash area. 14 Can you tell the Commissioner how you went 15 about organizing your notes into what became this 16 particular binder? 17 A: Well, I literally took every 18 individual notebook that I had going back from 1993 and 19 went through each page of each notebook and read each one 20 and attempted to locate any entry that had anything to do 21 with Ipperwash or the Ipperwash area and I photocopied it 22 and I -- came together with this package. 23 Q: And there are a number of -- a number 24 of notes, for example, if you go to page 1 there's -- 25 after Tab 1, Inspector Wright, there's a handwritten note


1 on the lefthand side, May 20 '93, and was that inserted 2 by you after the photocopying? 3 A: No. This was inserted by me pri -- 4 yes, after the first photocopying, yes. 5 Q: After you photocopied your notes, you 6 then went through and highlighted the dates and -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- in certain areas added some text? 9 A: Right. Correct. 10 Q: Perhaps, Commissioner we could mark 11 this book; it's entitled, Detective Inspector Mark Wright 12 Notebook Entries 1993 to 1996, as the next exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1086, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1086: D/Insp. Mark Wright notebook 16 entries, 1993 to 1996. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Then as well we have -- you'll find 20 on the inside of the -- that black binder that's in front 21 of you, some additional notes that were requested that 22 deal with February '95 and June 1995, from June 28th, 23 29th, 30th, 1995 and these are copies of your notes as 24 well? 25 A: Yes, they are, sir.


1 Q: And I would ask that the five (5) 2 page -- separate five (5) pages be marked as Exhibit P- 3 1087, please. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1087. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1087: D/Insp. Mark Wright 8 handwritten notes, Feb. 9 26/'95, Feb. 28/95, June 28, 10 29, 30/'95 and May 18/'95. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And when did you first become 14 involved with the events of -- at Ipperwash -- at Camp 15 Ipperwash? 16 A: Well, the -- I guess the very first 17 time I became involved would be the 20th of May where I 18 called the Detachment Commander of Forest Detachment and 19 offered up my services with respect to any criminal 20 investigation of any occurrences that occurred with 21 respect to Ipperwash -- the Ipperwash area. 22 By this time, a number of First Nations 23 individuals had occupied the east portion of Canadian 24 Forces Base Ipperwash. 25 Q: And so your first -- you had called


1 the Forest Detachment and offered your services and spoke 2 to Sergeant Beacock, I think he was -- 3 A: That's -- that's correct, sir, I did. 4 Q: And then what happened after that? 5 A: Then, I believe, on the 24th of May I 6 attended at -- at that Detachment -- at Forest Detachment 7 and I was briefed by Sergeant Beacock regarding the 8 Ipperwash occurrence. 9 And I also had discussion with two (2) 10 individuals, and I'm using my notebooks to refresh my 11 memory here, a Mr. Paul, I think it's Brown, I -- it says 12 Brow but I think it's Brown and David Klein who were from 13 the Special Investigations Unit of the National Defence 14 Department. 15 And I read over all the paperwork and that 16 would be all the occurrences in regards to whatever had 17 taken place in that area. And I was briefed by a 18 Constable Watkins as well as Constable Neil Morris from 19 the Intelligence Branch of the London OPP. 20 Q: And that as I understand as well you 21 had a meeting on May 29th involving John Carson? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: And what was the purpose of that 24 meeting? 25 A: My recollection is it -- it is at


1 that time that we established a reporting relationship 2 that Inspector Carson was going to act as the incident 3 commander for any occurrences in respect to that 4 particular area and -- but he was now working out of the 5 London area and I was the area crime sergeant for that 6 County so the arrangement was that I would deal with the 7 day to day hands on occurrences and report with respect 8 to those occurrences to Inspector Carson. 9 Q: So your role as the crime sergeant 10 for Lambton County -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- was and -- in relation to Camp 13 Ipperwash, you were going to report to Inspector Carson 14 in London? 15 A: Among others. I mean at this time, 16 and I -- I understand that the Inquiry has heard about 17 the re-organization process in the OPP, so I won't bother 18 to get into that, but I -- 19 Q: There were a number of people you 20 reported to? 21 A: Yes, sir, I did. 22 Q: And one of the people you reported to 23 was John Carson with respect to Camp Ipperwash and items 24 dealing with Camp Ipperwash? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: And now in 1993, were you aware of 2 what the policy was with respect to someone occupying 3 someone else's land, the policy of the OPP; how that 4 would be treated? 5 A: I understood that -- well, at that 6 time, all I understood with respect to that particular 7 situation was what I was aware of in what we called our 8 Police Orders, which was that basically in a property, 9 we, being the police officer, was not to get involved in 10 taking sides in a -- in a property dispute; that we were 11 there to basically keep the peace and that they would 12 have to make arrangements through some sort of civil 13 proceedings with which to deal with it. 14 But other than that, I was not aware of 15 any formal policy. 16 Q: And -- and the yellow folder in front 17 of you on -- left hand front of the page there's a copy 18 of Exhibit P-472 which is a briefing note for the 19 Interministerial Policy Forum dated November 26, '91 and 20 it's signed by then-Commissioner Thomas O'Grady. 21 Had you ever seen this document before -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: And the -- if you could take a moment 24 and read it. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And were you aware of this policy in 5 1993? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And were you aware, if not of the 8 actual piece of paper, did you have any understanding or 9 were you aware of the contents of the policy? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And I understand that over the years 12 you've had a number of nicknames? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you tell us what those 15 nicknames are? 16 A: Okay. I've been called Gilmore for 17 my apparent resemblance to Doug Gilmore of the Leafs, and 18 I've been called Ponch after my apparent resemblance of 19 the TV character on the CHIPS TV show way back when, and 20 I've been called Mouse and, frankly, I have no idea why 21 they called me that. And I've also been called Popcorn 22 as well. 23 Q: And what was your understanding of 24 the -- how did you come to acquire the nickname Popcorn? 25 A: Well, I certainly appreciate that it


1 wasn't meant as a term of endearment and I'm aware of 2 that. And that comes as far as I know from my time as a 3 sergeant, a uniformed sergeant, back in the early '90s in 4 Sombra. 5 I was always and still am a very high 6 energy individual and I was supervising a number of 7 officers for unsatisfactory work performance and I -- my 8 understanding is they didn't take too well to that and 9 hence the nickname was born. 10 Q: And do you still have that nickname? 11 A: Well, it's -- I mean I've -- I've 12 heard it the very odd time. I certainly heard it here 13 but I haven't been called that in a very long time. 14 Q: Now, if I -- I understand you were 15 involved in the summer of 1993 with respect to the 16 incident at the intersection of Matheson Drive and Army 17 Camp -- Army Camp Road? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you tell us what your role 20 with respect to that incident was? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And -- that's -- I understand a toll 23 both had been erected? 24 A: Yes, that was on the 17th of July, 25 1993. And I was actually at a family function in London


1 when I was alerted to that and Inspector -- then 2 Inspector Carson who came and picked me up in -- at the 3 family function and we went on our way to Math -- the 4 corner of Matheson Drive or the intersection of Matheson 5 Drive and Army Camp Road. 6 And there we found three (3) individuals 7 with -- attempting to take five dollar ($5.00) toll from 8 each vehicle that drove off of Army Camp Road on to 9 Matheson Drive. Matheson Drive curved towards the lake 10 and a number of day campers would use that -- that road 11 to get down to the beach and avoid having to pay the cost 12 of admission as it were to Ipperwash Provincial Park. 13 Q: So that at this point in 1993 14 Matheson Drive ran east off Army Camp Road along the 15 boundary of the Provincial Park and then turned north 16 towards the lake along the eastern boundary at the 17 Provincial Park up towards Lake Huron? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And on the eastern side of the road 20 was the boundary with respect to Camp Ipperwash? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And on the southern part of the road 23 when the road was running east off Army Camp Road the -- 24 the -- Camp Ipperwash was to the south of the road; is 25 that correct?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And it was your understanding that 3 day campers would use Matheson Drive, go up to the beach, 4 then didn't have to pay the toll at -- the charge at the 5 provincial camp? 6 A: Yes, that was my understanding. 7 Q: And so that there was -- we've heard 8 that there was a -- the toll booth erected, there were 9 three (3) individuals involved and what did you do? 10 A: Well, it was a -- it was a very 11 peaceful episode, but in any event we or I -- I arranged 12 for the Sombra OPP cruiser to attend because having been 13 a member of Sombra Detachment prior to becoming a 14 Detective Sergeant I was aware that that office had a 15 camera equipped car which was a relatively new item in 16 policing as far as the OPP were concerned, and so I 17 wanted that cruiser brought out to the scene so that we 18 could capture on video what was taking place. 19 And again I took my directions from 20 Inspector Carson. He was there at the scene as well and 21 we were there for sometime. My notes say that I was 22 there from approximately 3:20 -- starting at 3:26 and I 23 think I was there most of the day. 24 In any event a number of individuals went 25 through and some tolls were taken. We had conversation


1 with the individuals that were there. The only one I 2 remember is a Mr. Clifford George. I can't remember who 3 the two (2) other individuals were. 4 And we -- we made the point that we felt 5 that that was a criminal offence and of course they made 6 the point that they felt they -- they were exercising 7 their right over land that they felt was theirs. 8 And we took statements from a number of 9 individuals who were asked and did in fact pay the toll 10 and eventually we arrested the three (3) individuals for 11 I believe it was mischief in relation to the roadway. 12 Q: And prior to arresting the 13 individuals had you asked them to stop? 14 A: Yes, numerous times. 15 Q: And if they had stopped what would 16 have happened? 17 A: Then that would have been the end of 18 it; that would have been fine with us. 19 Q: And after you arrested the three (3) 20 individuals what did you do? 21 A: Well, we took them back to Forest 22 Detachment and what we wanted to do was release them 23 immediately. 24 It was pretty common practice back then 25 that there Justices of the Peace in the -- in these


1 communities and there was one (1) in Forest. And we 2 arranged for that Justice of the Peace to attend at the 3 Detachment so that we could process them and release 4 them. 5 But unfortunately, one (1) of the 6 conditions we wanted was that they -- they not go back 7 and do that again. And they weren't prepared to agree to 8 that so we had to continue the arrest. And they were 9 held in custody for a bail hearing the -- I think it was 10 on the -- the 20th is when we had the -- that's when I 11 anticipated we were going to have a bail hearing so I 12 attended court on the 20th. 13 Q: And were the three (3) individuals 14 moved from Forest to some other place on the evening of 15 July 17th? 16 A: I don't have a recollection of that 17 but normal procedure would be that we wouldn't house 18 those individuals at Forest Detachment. We just -- there 19 was -- there's only two (2) cells there anyway so I 20 expect what we did was we took them to the Sarnia jail. 21 Q: And this was on -- the 17th was 22 Saturday I believe. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And so on July 20th what did you do? 25 A: July 20th I -- I attended the Crown's


1 office in the City of Sarnia -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- and spoke to an Assistant Crown 4 Attorney in regards to conditions that we would have 5 preferred to be imposed upon the people that were charged 6 with that offence pending that release and... 7 Q: I note on page 9 of your notes July 8 20th, 1993 there's a note: 9 "Disagreement between Assistant Crown 10 and myself regarding the conditions for 11 the three (3) accused parties." 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And then what was the concern? 14 A: My concern was as I refer to my notes 15 was that I was concerned that the -- the conditions that 16 she was proposing were not defined clearly enough to keep 17 the three (3) parties away from future acts of stopping 18 vehicles on Matheson Drive and the Crown disagreed with 19 me. 20 Q: And at Tab 2 of the book in front of 21 you there's a fax, Inspector Wright, that is from you 22 Detective Sergeant M. Wright to Inspector J. Carson dated 23 July 20th, 1993, at the time of 11:35 a.m. It's Inquiry 24 Document 2001523. 25 And this appears to be sent by Andrea


1 although it's over your name. Can you tell us what this 2 is? 3 A: Well, it appears to me to be a fax 4 from the Assistant Crown Attorney to Inspector Carson 5 with the suggested terms of a release regarding the three 6 (3) charged parties in -- involved in the Matheson Drive 7 incident. 8 Q: And were these terms of release that 9 -- what happened with respect to these proposed terms of 10 release? 11 A: My understanding was these 12 individuals were eventually released on conditions. 13 Q: And these conditions or some other 14 conditions? 15 A: I couldn't say for sure. 16 Q: And did -- do you know from your own 17 information if Inspector Carson agreed to these 18 conditions? 19 A: I seem to recall that we were in 20 agreement with -- eventually we came to an agreement with 21 the proposed conditions. 22 Q: But you can't recall if they were the 23 ones reflected in this -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Perhaps, we just, because


1 we've referred to it, we'll mark this as the next 2 exhibit. It's Inquiry Document 2001523. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1088, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1088: Document Number 2001523. Fax 7 from Mark Wright to Inspector 8 John Carson, July 20, 1993. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And there's a note -- can you tell 12 us, on July 20th -- actually if I could take you to page 13 10 of your notes that it appears that there's a note 14 continued from notebook number 53, 21 July '93. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And looks -- what happened here? Did 17 you change notebooks? 18 A: Yeah, I changed notebooks and I -- I 19 say on the side there, it says, this should read 20 July 20 '93 as opposed to the 21st because it's the same day, 21 I've just put the wrong date on there. 22 Q: When you put -- when you started your 23 new notebook you put the wrong date on it? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And the -- what else happened, if


1 anything, of -- on July 20th of -- with respect to the 2 release of the individuals? 3 A: Well, I ended up having a 4 conversation with their -- their lawyer, Mr. Ron George, 5 in the foyer of, I think, the third floor of the Sarnia 6 Courtroom in regards to the matter. 7 Q: And can you tell us what -- about 8 that discussion? 9 A: Sure. Mr. George was acting as their 10 advocate of the -- the three (3) accused persons and in 11 particular Mr. Clifford George and he made -- he wanted 12 to make the point to me that he felt that, you know, Mr. 13 George was seventy-three (73) years old and that some 14 special consideration should be given to him because of 15 his service during World War II and that my notes say 16 that he thought we -- there was -- the OPP were being 17 politically motivated to influence these charges. 18 And, you know, frankly, I appreciate the 19 fact that Mr. George was again, like I said, being an 20 advocate for Mr. Clifford George and I knew of Mr. 21 Clifford George's reputation and -- and his service to 22 our country, but, you know, I explained to Ron George 23 that, you know, we were -- we were just trying -- we 24 would treat everybody fairly and that it was an offence 25 against the Criminal Code and we had exercised our


1 authority with respect to that. 2 Q: And what -- as a result -- was there 3 a bail hearing held on July 20th or -- 4 A: No, no there wasn't. I was prepared 5 -- that's why I was there. I expected we were going to 6 release them but my notes say that Mr. George asked for 7 another two (2) days to prepare for a bail hearing. And 8 I think the question was about his clients didn't want to 9 be put in a position where they'd have to agree to not go 10 near Matheson Drive. 11 Q: And ultimately the three (3) 12 individuals, including Mr. George, were -- Clifford 13 George, were released? 14 A: Yes, they were. 15 Q: And I asked you this before, but do 16 you recall what the conditions were, of the release, if 17 any? 18 A: No, I don't. I don't recall. 19 Q: And at the -- at or about that time, 20 there was a incident with respect to or perhaps not an 21 incident, but you took some steps with respect to a man 22 by the name of Scott Ewart? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you tell us what you did with 25 respect to Scott Ewart and why did you do it?


1 A: Well Mr. Ewart first came to my 2 attention on the initial -- the day of the initial 3 occupation of Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash on -- I 4 think it was the 6th of May when I was watching the TV 5 news that night and an individual I later learned was Mr. 6 Ewart, was seen on television serving notice on the 7 Canadian -- Canadian Armed Forces Base personnel at CFB 8 Ipperwash. 9 And then I became -- that's the first time 10 I became aware of Mr. Ewart and then at some point 11 Inspector Carson -- then Inspector Carson and I had a 12 conversation about him because we weren't quite sure -- 13 he served notice and we -- we had been given a copy of 14 that notice that he had served on the Base personnel. 15 And on that it identified Mr. Ewart as a 16 bailiff for the Province of Ontario. And the -- the 17 next time I saw Mr. Ewart was again at the -- that I 18 recall, was at the Math -- Matheson Drive toll bridge 19 incident and he was -- my recollection was, parked across 20 the -- the street on Army Camp Road. 21 And I was delegated by Inspector Carson to 22 go over there and talk to Mr. Ewart. And so I went over 23 there and -- and spoke to Mr. Ewart and I asked him what 24 it was he was doing there and he told me he was a bailiff 25 and that he was there to provide legal advice to the


1 First Nations people 2 And that I told him that they were -- and 3 -- and he was polite, and I told him that they were 4 committing an offence and -- a criminal offence and then 5 after some time he drove away. 6 But he was parked lawfully on the side of 7 the road and my recollection was that -- that was 8 basically the end of that as far as that incident's 9 concerned. 10 Q: And before I go on, the -- on your 11 note of July 20th indicates that the hearing -- the bail 12 hearing was put off for two (2) days; that would be July 13 22nd. 14 Do you know if the bail hearing took place 15 on July 22nd, Inspector Wright, and whether Mr. George 16 and the other two (2) individuals were release on July 17 22nd? 18 A: My recollection was that they -- they 19 were released on that day. 20 Q: On that day? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And turning back to Scott Ewart for a 23 moment, if I could ask you to turn to Tab 3, there's a 24 copy of an Exhibit, P-404, Inquiry Document 2002648. 25 It's a letter from you to Sheriff Ed Finlon, Middlesex


1 County and it's -- this letter was signed by you. 2 And did you write this letter? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And why did you write this letter? 5 A: Because I was delegated -- delegated 6 to by Inspector Carson. I had prior to make -- preparing 7 this letter I had done some checking to see what 8 authority if any, Mr. Ewart had to act as a bailiff in 9 Lambton County. 10 And I had conversation as I recall with 11 the Sheriff of Middlesex County. At some I ended up 12 talking to him and he made me aware of a number of things 13 that being that Mr. Ewart was licensed for Middlesex 14 County only as I recall and that that authority extended 15 only to that County and not into Lambton County and that 16 if a complaint -- if I was -- if I wanted to make a 17 complaint, I would have to do it formally by way of memo. 18 So I recall passing that message onto 19 Inspector Carson and he delegated me to prepare the memo 20 and I did and you'll note that there's a cc. to Inspector 21 Carson at the end of that memo. 22 Q: Yes. Inspector Carson indicated that 23 he asked you to write this -- to deal with this issue and 24 write the letters. 25 A: Right.


1 Q: Now, the letter, Exhibit P-404, 2 refers to the notice -- a notice and attached to this 3 document, the fourth page, it's a notice dated May 18th, 4 1993 and is that one of the -- is the note -- is that the 5 notice that you're referring to? 6 A: Yes, sir, it is. 7 Q: And then at Tab 4 there's a letter, 8 it's dated July 21, 1993, as well, to Marie -- Ms. Marie 9 Dignum, D-I-G-N-U-M, deputy registrar, Bailiffs Act in 10 Toronto and this letter is signed by you as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 2001525 13 and I would ask that that be the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1089, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1089. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1089: Document Number 2001525. 18 Letter to Registrar from 19 D/Sgt. M. A. Wright, number 20 5901, OPP Petrolia re. 21 Complaint against Mr. Scott 22 Ewart, July 24/'93. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And that -- did you speak to Ms.


1 Dignum and were advised to send her a copy of your -- of 2 the complaint? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And at Tab 4(a) of the book in front 5 of you, there's a copy of a letter dated July 23, 1993 6 from you -- excuse me, addressed to you from Stephen Dean 7 Moody, Registrar, Collection Agencies Act. It's Inquiry 8 Document 2001528. 9 Did you receive this letter, Inspector 10 Wright? 11 A: I don't have any recollection, but I 12 take no issue with the fact that I did. 13 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 14 exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1090, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1090: Document Number 2001528. 18 Letter from Registrar, 19 Collections Agency Act to 20 Det. Sgt. M. A. Wright, July 21 23/'93. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And the -- with respect to this issue 25 of -- there's a -- could I ask you to turn to, in your


1 notes, Exhibit P-1086 to December 21st, 1993. It's page 2 21, Inspector Wright. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: In this book here -- 7 Q: Yeah, in the blue book, excuse me, 8 yeah. 9 A: Page -- 10 Q: The blue book -- 11 A: Page what -- 12 Q: Blue book of your notes. 13 A: What page, what are you -- 14 Q: Page 21. It's just the last page 15 before Tab 2. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, sir, I'm there. 20 Q: And there's a note December 21, 1993, 21 Ewart Matter, and can you tell us what this note relates 22 to? 23 A: I -- my notes indicate that I was -- 24 contact made with the Sheriff of Middlesex County and I 25 was advised that Consumer Commercial Relations branch


1 would be conducting an investigation into the matter in 2 regards to Mr. Ewart. 3 Q: And do you recall today what your 4 next involvement with the Ewart matter was? 5 A: I think it was on the 29th of June, I 6 -- I think, in '95. I attended a hearing and gave 7 evidence -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- in Toronto. 10 Q: And on Exhibit P-1087, the fourth 11 page in there's an entry on June 29th, 1995 and that 12 entry deals with attending at the hearing? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And you gave evidence on that date? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And a decision was ultimately 17 released with respect to -- by the Commission of 18 Registration Appeal Tribunal with respect to Mr. Ewart; 19 is that correct? 20 A: Well, I -- I've since read that, but 21 my recollection is, I was never aware of the final 22 results of that hearing. 23 I re -- I recall going and -- and my 24 recollection is that's the last I heard of it. 25 Q: And when did you learn about the


1 Decision? 2 A: I read that last night. 3 Q: Maybe -- we have, Commissioner, a 4 copy of the ultimate decision. It's part of the 5 database, Inquiry document 1003575. The Decision's dated 6 September 11, 1995. 7 And just -- and there's a memorandum of -- 8 dated September 14th, 1995 from Teri Kirk, Director Legal 9 Services to Dale McConaghy, Executive Assistant to 10 Minister attaching the decision. 11 And I would ask that this be marked as the 12 next exhibit; it just completes this story. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1091, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1091: Document Number 1003575, Memo 16 to Dale McConaghy from Teri 17 Kirk Re: Park Bailiffs : CRAT 18 Matter and Ipperwash and 19 attached Decision, Sept. 20 14/'95. 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The memo plus the 23 attached decision that's dated September 11. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Now, if I take you back to the summer 3 of 1993 and August 1993, and there was a -- a matter at 4 the Army Camp relating to a helicopter. Do you recall 5 that? 6 A: Yes, sir, I do. 7 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 8 what role you played with respect to the helicopter 9 matter in the summer of 1993? 10 A: Yes, I was involved in the 11 investigation of -- of that matter. I was called out at 12 approximately one o'clock in the morning on the morning 13 of the 24th of August. And I was called out -- my notes 14 say that I was called out by Inspector Carson to attend 15 at Ipperwash, Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash. 16 So I left from my residence in Lambton 17 County -- in Lambton County, and attended at the Base. 18 And Inspector Carson left from his home in London and my 19 recollection is we got there just about the same time. 20 Q: And your notes with respect to this 21 begin on page 14 of Exhibit P-1086; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And on your arrival what did you... 24 A: Pardon me? 25 Q: What -- what -- upon your arrival at


1 Camp Ipperwash what were you asked to do if anything and 2 what did you do if anything? 3 A: Well, the first thing that I did was 4 I attended at 21 Highway along the fence line of Canadian 5 Forces Base Ipperwash where I found an OPP cruiser parked 6 perpendicular to the fence line of -- of the Base. And 7 there were two (2) OPP officers tucked behind the trunk 8 portion of the vehicle behind the -- the cruiser and 9 there was a pickup truck parked perpendicular to the 10 fence line with the lights shining down on the cruiser 11 and there was an overhead deck light as well on that 12 pickup truck shining down on the -- on the cruiser. 13 So by this time I was aware that, as I 14 recall, that I'd got some information that there'd been a 15 -- a report of or an allegation that a helicopter had 16 been shot, Canadian Forces helicopter had been shot. So 17 my immediate task there was to look after that situation 18 and de-escalate that because it appeared to me to be a 19 fairly tense situation, more so on the officers' part 20 than the First Nations' part as far as I was concerned. 21 In that -- and by that I mean the officers 22 looked much more concerned about the situation than did 23 the First Nations individuals. 24 Q: And when you say you "de-escalated" 25 that what did you do?


1 A: Well, I -- I removed one (1) of the 2 officers and I talked to the First Nations individuals 3 there and told them that, you know, we had -- we got a 4 complaint about the helicopter and we were going to seal 5 off the area as best we could and we were going to 6 conduct an investigation. 7 And -- and so we had additional 8 individuals attend and we set up as best we could a 9 perimeter around Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash and, you 10 know, as best -- as best we could; heavy emphasis on 'as 11 best we could'. 12 And we returned to Forest Detachment to 13 organize the investigation. It was such that a CIB 14 inspector was assigned. Detective Inspector Terry Hall 15 was assigned and he'd be there to manage the overall 16 criminal investigations. 17 We have Inspector Carson there who's the 18 Incident Commander looking after the -- the incident as 19 it relates to Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash, but 20 Detective Inspector Hall there in charge of the overall 21 criminal investigation. 22 So one of the very first things that were 23 delegated to me was to prepare an information to obtain a 24 search warrant so that we could enter on that property 25 and search that area.


1 So I busied myself with obtaining the 2 information from the officers who were there as well as - 3 - by this time we had sent officers to go to interview 4 the personnel on the helicopter. 5 Of course, all that information would be 6 required in order to write the information to obtain to 7 make the link between the offence and -- and the search 8 on the property for items that we felt were relevant to 9 that investigation. 10 Q: And so you -- as part of the work 11 that you did with respect to the search warrant, I note 12 in your notes there was a reference to Assistant Crown 13 Attorney D. Foster (phonetic)? 14 A: Yes. I called Ms. Foster in the 15 middle of the night and she assisted me with the -- with 16 the preparation of the information to obtain because my 17 concern was how to identify the property. 18 Our intention was to go in there to search 19 vehicles and tents and temporary buildings on the eastern 20 part of Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash. So I wanted to 21 be able to articulate in the information to obtain, what 22 we were going to do and where we were going to search. 23 Q: And at that time in August of 1993 24 the people who had moved onto the Army Camp were living 25 along Highway on the -- on the Army Camp along Highway 21


1 east of the built-up area of the Army Camp is that 2 correct? 3 A: That's -- yes, that's exactly how I 4 would describe it. 5 Q: And so what else did you do? 6 A: We had Number 1 District ERT team 7 attend and I had an operational meeting. My notes 8 indicate that Inspector Turner also attended. 9 Now he would be -- we would still be in 10 the throes of reorganization within -- within the OPP and 11 Inspector Turner would be the inspector from Chatham 12 because technically Ipperwash Provincial Park and Ipper - 13 - that Ipperwash -- Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash was 14 still in the area that was referred to as Number 1 15 District. 16 So, as well as Detective Staff Sergeant 17 Matthews, he would be my immediate supervisor vis-a-vis 18 crime management. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And also Serg -- Staff Sergeant 21 Lacroix and Sergeant Korosec, Sergeant Korosec would be 22 the ERT team leader. He -- I would have just left my 23 duties as the ERT team leader, Korosec was my 2IC when I 24 was running the Number 1 District ERT team. So he was 25 now in charge of the ERT team that I had just left.


1 Q: All right. And so that -- I note in 2 your notes Army personnel attended and the -- the note 3 indicates operational plan agreed upon; that was -- was 4 with respect to the search? 5 A: That would be with respect to that, 6 yeah. With respect to the search as well as the 7 continued attempt at containment of the scene as well. 8 Q: And then did you obtain -- did you -- 9 the next note is at 11:35 at scene. Did you attend in 10 Sarnia with respect to the issue of the search warrant? 11 A: No, I did not. Constable Potts I 12 believe -- 13 Q: John Potts? 14 A: -- yes, swore to the information. 15 Q: Okay. You -- you did the work up and 16 he did the -- swore the information? 17 A: He -- yes, he did, yes. 18 Q: And a search warrant was obtained? 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: And then what role if any, did you 21 play with respect to the search warrant? 22 A: Well, my notes -- if you go to the 23 next page, you'll see that I have an item that says 24 "note" that prior to leaving for the scene we had a -- a 25 meeting with the Chief of Stoney Point, Mr. Carl George


1 at the time. 2 And we alerted him to the fact that we 3 were obtaining -- we were about to obtain a Criminal Code 4 search warrant and that we were going to enter onto the 5 property and our intention was to search that area of CFB 6 Ipperwash. 7 So he was giving -- he was given prior 8 warning that we were going to attend, so as to allow him 9 time to go tell the residents there that we were, in 10 fact, going to attend. 11 Q: And when did this meeting with Chief 12 Carl George take place? 13 A: That happened prior to us attending 14 to execute the warrant. 15 Q: So sometime during the morning or -- 16 A: Yes. At -- I believe he attended the 17 Detachment and we spoke to him right at the Detachment. 18 And my notes also indicated that I asked 19 him if it was possible for him to have the individual 20 responsible give himself up to us, as it were, so as to 21 avoid the search, but the Chief didn't think that that 22 was possible, that he would have a problem if he 23 attempted to do that. 24 Q: So that the -- there's a note on page 25 16 of your notes, in the exhibit, at 11:35 at scene, and


1 I take it that's at Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And then the note that relates to 4 Chief Carl George, that's on page 17 under note, it 5 relates to a time before 11:35? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And can you tell us -- you were at 8 the meeting with Chief George, Carl George? 9 A: Yes, yes. 10 Q: And after the meeting you went to -- 11 back to Camp Ipperwash. In your note it says 11:35 and 12 what, if anything, did you do with respect to the search? 13 A: Well, we -- prior to leaving that we 14 were -- we were absolutely sure that the Chief had been 15 given sufficient time with which to let his people know 16 that we were coming, so this was absolutely no surprise 17 whatsoever that we were -- we were going to attend. And, 18 in addition to this, by this time, Detective Inspector 19 Hall would have arrived and with him, the OPP helicopter. 20 And so we entered the Base and we began a 21 search of the -- that part of the Base occupied by the 22 First Nations individuals in the non-built-up area, the 23 eastern part of the Base. 24 Q: Along Highway 21? 25 A: Correct. Along Highway 21 and then


1 moving northward, well into the Base. 2 Q: Along, I think it's called the rifle 3 ranges -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- where some individuals camped on 6 the rifle ranges farther north from Highway 21. 7 A: Right. And in addition to that, we - 8 - during the day we had additional ERT teams arrive and 9 we actually went to the dunes that abut Lake Huron on the 10 -- would be the northern edge of the northern part of 11 Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash, and we searched in there 12 as well. 13 Q: And there were campsites along -- in 14 the dunes along by Lake -- in the norths -- northern part 15 of the Camp by -- 16 A: I don't know -- I don't recall there 17 being campsites but the warrant authorised us to search 18 the entire area. And were -- we were interested in -- in 19 primarily, a firearm is what we after, primarily. 20 Q: And the -- as part of the search, how 21 long did the search go on? 22 A: We were there all day just until it 23 was getting to be dusk. It says that at -- it would be 24 8:30 the search was completed, and I took part in the act 25 -- in the actual search with the ERT team. I -- I joined


1 the line search with the ERT officers and searched 2 throughout the day with them. 3 Q: And what, if anything, was found as a 4 result of the search? 5 A: My recollection is that we found some 6 Military trip wires, some casings, spent and unspent 7 casings, a flare gun and a pellet pistol, is my 8 recollection. 9 Q: And I would ask you to turn to Tab 5 10 of the book in front of you, a copy of Exhibit P-34. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And at the -- page 16 your name 13 appears. Is this the document that you prepared? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And what was this document? 16 A: This was a case history that I was 17 asked to prepare and send to Inspector Carson. 18 Q: And the report indicates -- 19 A: If I may, sir, on page 12/13 the 20 results of the search because I was doing that from 21 memory but it says here: 22 "Several high voltage handheld 23 spotlights, one (1) pellet pistol, one 24 (1) flare gun, Military trip wire, 25 several boxes, several rounds of


1 ammunition of various calibre." 2 So... 3 Q: And that's -- what was a -- as a 4 result of the search that's what was found and seized? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And were any arrests made? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And the -- can you tell us, at the 9 seventeenth page, it's the page after your -- your name 10 appears, there's attached to it a case sufficient dated 11 August 26th, 1993, and what is this? 12 A: This is a Centre of Forensic Sciences 13 document that is attached to a piece of evidence which 14 would have been -- which was a copper jacketed 15 projectile. I believe that was taken from the helicopter 16 and it was submitted by the Ident officer, Identification 17 officer Senior Constable Glen Hall. 18 So this document would accompany the 19 exhibit or evidence to the Centre of Forensic Sciences 20 for testing. 21 Q: And the cartridge -- the copper 22 jacketed projectile that was submitted to the Centre was 23 -- where did this projectile come from? 24 A: My recollection, it came from within 25 the helicopter, from the body of the helicopter.


1 Q: That -- 2 A: It was extracted from the body of the 3 helicopter by Constable Hall. 4 Q: And the drawing that's the last page 5 of you report, who prepared that drawing? There's some 6 initials on the lower left-hand side. 7 Do you know who prepared that drawing? 8 A: It looks to me like the initials of 9 Glen Hall. There's a date and a time. 10 Q: And at Tab 6 there's a statement and 11 a -- a three (3) page statement and that's a statement -- 12 your statement? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what was that prepared for? 15 A: Well, that -- that would just be -- 16 as part of the criminal investigation I prepared a 17 statement outlining my involvement in that investigation 18 so we'd have it for the file. 19 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 2004116, 20 if we could mark that the next exhibit? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1092, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1092: Document Number 2004116. 24 Interview of Mark Wright, 25 August 24/'93.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And no arrests were made with respect 4 to this incident? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Perhaps this would be a good time for 7 the morning break, Commissioner? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly, 9 this would be time for a morning break. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 11 for fifteen (15) minutes. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 10:23 a.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 10:42 a.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 17 resumed. Please be seated. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: If you could move forward, Inspector 21 Wright, to 1994 and the first entry we have in Exhibit P- 22 1086 is a note for April 28th, 1994 and the actual note 23 is actually for April 29th, 1994 and can you tell us what 24 this relates to and what you did? 25 A: Yes, sir. I attended at Chatham


1 District Headquarters with Staff Sergeant Lacroix who was 2 the Detachment Commander of Petrolia Detachment, as it 3 was known back then, regarding the May 6th anniversary 4 planning with regards to Ipperwash Provincial Park. 5 That would be the anniversary of the 6 occupation of -- sorry, Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash. 7 Q: And did the OPP anticipate that there 8 would be some sort of -- something happen on -- on May 9 6th, the anniversary of the occupation of the Park? 10 A: Well, my recollection is just from 11 what I have here, but I think what we had was that -- 12 that there was intelligence information that there would 13 be a large gathering taking place on the property in 14 conjunction to the anniversary date, so we did what 15 amounted to some contingency planning. 16 Q: And what was the purpose of the 17 contingency planning? 18 A: Well, I think if you look on -- I 19 have a document here, I don't know how I refer to this 20 document. 21 Q: That's -- you're referring to Tab 7, 22 it's Exhibit P-408, Inquiry Document 2000716. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And this is a copy of a letter that 25 you sent -- it appears to the Superintendent Ontario


1 Provincial Police, Number 1 District Headquarters in 2 Chatham. 3 A: Yes. The -- thank you. The meeting 4 took place and as a result of the meeting that's in 5 reference -- that's referenced in my notebook, I prepared 6 this document and then it would have gone to the 7 Superintendent of Number 1 District for overall approval. 8 But in answer to your initial question, I 9 think the answer is under "Objective" on page 2 of the 10 report, and that was to maintain a highly visible 11 presence outside the perimeter of CFB Ipperwash, 12 primarily on Highway 21, to gather intelligence on the 13 number of persons entering the premises, their 14 association, if any, to any group, i.e., warriors or any 15 other particular interest groups. This is to include 16 persons from out of Province and/or anyone not normally 17 associated to the Stoney Point First Nations Band. 18 The enforcement of Federal and Provincial 19 Statutes outside the premises, if they occur, and to 20 assist Military personnel on the continuation of any 21 arrest and the processing of arrested persons after they 22 have been lawfully transported to Forest OPP Detachment. 23 This is not to preclude the occasion of 24 members acting in the lawful performance of their duties, 25 to protect the lives of any persons present on or off the


1 premises. 2 Q: So the -- the basic objective was to 3 deal with issues outside the Army Camp? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And to deal with arrested persons 6 after they had been removed from the Army Camp, unless 7 there was a threat to someone's safety? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And this was the plan that had -- was 10 developed and was sent off. And what happened on -- I 11 take it this plan -- the work went on with respect to 12 this plan for some time, because I note that you have a 13 note on May 1st where you were dealing with the plan; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then on May 2nd there's a note, 17 concurrence -- 18 "Occurrence, prepare memo regarding 19 policing for policing on CFP Ipperwash 20 passed by Staff Sergeant Lacroix" 21 And I take it that that's Exhibit P-408? 22 A: I think so, yes. 23 Q: And what, if anything, happened on 24 the weekend of May 6th,7th and 8th? 25 A: Nothing, as far as I can tell.


1 There's -- I wasn't even on duty at that time, it would 2 appear. I certainly wasn't in the area of CFB Ipperwash. 3 Q: Yeah. And then... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: The -- starting at Tab 8 of the book 8 in front of you, there's a extract from Exhibit P-411. 9 And this is a document entitled, CFB Ipperwash Incidents, 10 and my question for you is -- it's Inquiry Document 11 2002889, what role, if any, did you have in the 12 preparation of this document? 13 A: This is P-411? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: This is a log that I had instituted 16 by one of the detective constables working for me on the 17 1st of June, I think, is when I -- I had him start -- 18 start this. 19 Q: And there's actually a note at page 20 33, June 1, '94: 21 "Direction, prepare log of events of 22 Ipperwash." 23 A: Right. So the -- the detective doing 24 this was an officer by the name of Dowell, and he's 25 obviously gone back in time. And what I wanted was I was


1 interesting in maintaining a -- a log of both proactive 2 and reactive incidents that happened in and around, not 3 only CFB Ipperwash but West Ipperwash beach, because 4 there were a number of -- there was a complex policing 5 problem in and around the West Ipperwash, Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park, CFB Ipperwash area. 7 And my concern was that in the event 8 something were to happen, we would be able to show a 9 sustained attempt to police those very difficult problems 10 that we found ourselves in the midst of, in regards to 11 that particular area. 12 Q: And so the -- the log was simply to 13 keep track of all of the -- the incidents for planning 14 purposes or -- 15 A: Well, it wasn't so much for planning, 16 it was -- frankly, I was -- I was concerned about, again, 17 the complex issues that were there. 18 There was a lot of -- specifically West 19 Ipperwash, the West Ipperwash beach problem was of most 20 concern to me at this particular time when -- when we 21 instituted this log. And I wanted to be able to 22 demonstrate that we, being the OPP, that policed that 23 area had attempted to do everything we could in order to 24 deal with the incidents as -- as they occurred, to 25 demonstrate an even handed approach that covered how long


1 that this problem was going to continue. 2 Q: And we'll come to it in a moment, but 3 the West Ipperwash beach matter related to the cottages 4 that were on the east side of Kettle and Stony Point 5 First Nation along Lake Huron that had been built on land 6 that had been surrendered to the -- by the First Nation 7 back in 1928, I believe, and was the subject of a lawsuit 8 by the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation with respect 9 to the title to the land that some of these cottages were 10 built on? 11 A: Correct. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I hope you 13 don't ask to repeat that question. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And with -- and the action, as well, 17 was against the Federal Government? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you were aware of that action in 20 1994? 21 A: Against the -- I don't know if I was 22 aware that it was against the Federal Government. I -- I 23 don't think I was. I was pretty zeroed in on the fact 24 that there was a land claim issue like you've just 25 described and that -- that the First Nations people had


1 what I came to understand as colour of right with respect 2 to this property. 3 And of course this caused considerable 4 concern with the people who owned property in the area 5 that you previously mentioned and we found ourselves in 6 the midst of that, attempting to police that -- that 7 problem. 8 And that insofar as CFB Ipperwash was 9 concerned we -- frankly, it didn't represent, for me, 10 personally, as the Area Crime Sergeant, a great concern 11 with respect to policing. I mean, these individuals had 12 occupied the Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash, they seemed 13 to be -- of course we had the helicopter incident but 14 after that, really, they seemed to co-exist pretty 15 peacefully. 16 There was -- there was some difficult 17 occurrences between the Military Police and the occupiers 18 because they were -- they were cohabitating in that area 19 for obvious reasons but as far as the OPP or -- or me, 20 personally, was concerned, we really didn't have a whole 21 lot of problems there; that -- that was basically looking 22 after itself and my attention was more focussed on the 23 West Ipperwash policing problem as it dealt with that 24 land claim issue. 25 Q: And, as well, as I understand it, in


1 this period of time in 1993 and subsequent there was a -- 2 an issue with respect to the use of the beach? 3 A: Yes, there certainly was. 4 Q: And the -- there were differences of 5 opinion between the residents of Kettle and Stony Point 6 First Nation and some of the cottagers with respect to 7 the use of the beach? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I note in your book at Tab 2, 10 page 26, there's an entry for May 15th, 1994 and -- 11 A: Page what, sir? 12 Q: Page 26. 13 A: Yes. Oh, yes. 14 Q: And there's an indication: 15 "West Ipperwash cottage owners 16 meeting." 17 And this entry starts at 6 -- 18:00 hours; 18 that's 6:00 p.m. in the evening? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you tell us about this 21 meeting? 22 A: Yes, I can. I remember it well. It 23 was a meeting at Chatham District Headquarters and there 24 was a representative group from the West Ipperwash 25 Cottage Owners' Association and there were a number of


1 officers there; Lacroix was there, I believe, and I was 2 there, and I believe some of the Command staff was there. 3 And generally speaking the -- they were 4 rather irate -- 5 Q: The -- who was -- 6 A: -- the cottage owners -- 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: The cottage owners, with respect to 9 what they perceived as a lack of policing in -- in that 10 area. They felt that our policing was not adequate and 11 that they felt that they were being mistreated by the 12 First -- some of the First Nations people that were 13 coming on -- on their property or through their property 14 to the beach. 15 And I remember, quite frankly, explaining 16 to the people that, you know, our approach was we were 17 going to deal with this in a very even handed fashion and 18 that when we got a complaint we would get there as soon 19 as we could, because one (1) of the main concerns was how 20 long it took the OPP from the time of the call to the 21 time of attending. 22 And I recall, clearly, that I -- and I 23 explained to them that, well, we would get there and if 24 we couldn't get there then one (1) of the Kettle Point 25 officers would get there but, in any event, there would


1 be an officer there to deal with that. 2 And they weren't interested in a First 3 Nations officer attending, they wanted an OPP officer 4 attending because they felt the mere fact that a First 5 Nations officer would attend would mean that they 6 wouldn't get fair treatment, so -- 7 Q: And what was your reaction to that? 8 A: I was shocked, to be frank. And we - 9 - we explained to them that that was the working 10 relationship we had with those officers; they'd covered 11 for us and we covered for them and that was the way it 12 was going to be. And certainly an officer -- an OPP 13 officer would eventually attend because that was 14 technically our area, if I may use that term. 15 But that was the way we were going to 16 police that issue. So it didn't end -- the meeting 17 didn't end very well, but be that as it may, it became 18 evident that we were -- this was going to be even more of 19 a problem, potentially. 20 So we needed to institute some type of 21 training so that regardless of who the officer is who 22 attended that particular area for those types of calls, 23 that they would understand the background of the 24 complaint, the issue of colour of right and how to deal 25 with what we consider were the most likely types of


1 occurrences that would take place in that area, and so we 2 did that. 3 Q: And then there's an entry May 26th, 4 1994 and it appears to be a meeting to deal with the 5 issue of the Ipper -- west -- it says Ipperwash problem 6 but here you're referring to Ipperwash -- West Ipperwash 7 Beach? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And there's a reference to Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park and West Ipperwash Beach, and a tour, is 11 that what that refers to? 12 A: Yes. I would -- I've now -- my notes 13 demonstrate that my -- I now have a new boss and his name 14 is Detective Staff Sergeant O'Hagan who has now replaced 15 Detective Sergeant -- Detective Staff Sergeant Matthews 16 who is now an Acting Inspector, all in the reorg -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- that we were going through. So I 19 was introducing him to the area and showing him West 20 Ipperwash Beach and the Provincial Park and CFB 21 Ipperwash. 22 And that's -- and -- and after that you'll 23 see that we attend a meeting regarding Sunday and 24 Saturday surveillance as a matter of course. And they're 25 -- these are all in the logs as well, is that I organized


1 numerous, what I would call proactive policing approaches 2 where we would put officers in plain clothes. 3 But, you know, they'd be in bathing suits 4 and -- and they'd actually be on the beach at West 5 Ipperwash and they'd have cameras and they'd have radios 6 and they'd be supported by uniform officers close by. 7 And those officers were there to watch what was going on 8 in regards to any type of confrontation between the 9 cottage owners and any First Nations' person. 10 And my recollection is -- and I took part 11 in a number of these and my recollection is while we were 12 there we never saw any sort of confrontation of any kind 13 whatsoever between the parties involved. 14 Q: And I note that on May 28th there's 15 another -- there's a note and it's with respect to 16 surveillance and there appears to be a reference to it 17 being set up in the dunes area of the beach near CFB 18 Ipperwash? 19 A: Yes. And -- and what was occurring 20 then is that Ipperwash Provincial Park was still just 21 that, Ipperwash Provincial Park, and there were campers 22 in there and they would wander beyond the boundary of the 23 camp and onto Canadian -- the -- the Base, Base 24 Ipperwash. 25 And there are -- there are dunes there --


1 Q: This is along Lake Huron, the north 2 part of the -- the Camp Ipperwash and the Provincial Park 3 as in the northwest corner? 4 A: Right. So this would be east -- 5 east -- 6 Q: Of Matheson Drive? 7 A: Right, east of Matheson Drive. And 8 there's a, you know, what I would refer to as a 9 spectacular beach there. And day campers would wander 10 over there and we would have -- the Military police was 11 doing -- were doing patrols down there. 12 And the concern was that these 13 individuals, who had no idea about the land claim issue 14 that was taking place on Ipperwash -- Canadian Forces 15 Base Ipperwash, would wander onto that beach and become 16 involved in a potential altercation with one of the 17 occupiers of the Base. 18 So in an effort to do some proactive 19 policing in regards to that matter, I organized that we 20 put people -- we'd go to the Park and we'd actually go 21 sit in the dunes to see what, if anything, happened. 22 And on this particular incident I've noted 23 in my notebook that there were Natives on ATV's providing 24 apparent security patrols and we took some photos of 25 that. And at the end of the day -- and there were some,


1 what I'm going to refer to as civilians, as far as the 2 day campers are -- the campers, they were over in that 3 beach area. 4 And the Military came over and they didn't 5 know who we were and we identified ourselves and we told 6 them that our position was that because there were 7 civilians in the dunes, we told them, Well, if you move 8 them out then we're going to leave, but we're not going 9 to leave and leave these people here. 10 And my recollection is at the end -- there 11 was no confrontation with any First Nations person or 12 anything of that, I mean, people just stayed on the 13 beach. And then at the end of the day we identified 14 ourselves as police officers to these rather startled 15 civilians and we moved them off the dunes area and back 16 into the Provincial Park. 17 Q: Okay. And then on May 29th, 1994 18 there was a meeting with respect to -- in your note 19 there's a meeting with respect to West Ipperwash; is that 20 correct? 21 A: On the 29th, sir? 22 Q: Yeah, what did you do on May 29th? 23 A: I think what that is alluding to is 24 where, once again, on the beach, in an undercover 25 capacity and we're watching what's going on.


1 Q: And at the Provincial Park as well? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Now, if I could turn to your note at 4 May 30th, 1994. 5 A: May 30th? Okay. 6 Q: Page 31 of Exhibit P-1086. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And there's a heading, "Training of 9 Lambton Officers of Land Dispute History and Correct 10 Response to Calls." 11 And there's a couple of notes and as well 12 a document that I'm going to take you to, but can you 13 just generally tell the Commissioner what this related 14 to? 15 A: This is what I've alluded to earlier. 16 This is -- it's a discussion with my superiors with 17 respect to preparing a training package so that we have a 18 uniform response to any occurrences at the West Ipperwash 19 beach area. 20 Q: And at Tab 9 of the document in front 21 of you, there's a copy of a document that's entitled 22 Inquiry document -- it's Inquiry document, excuse me, 23 2000341. 24 It's -- this happens to be -- it appears 25 to be Brad Seltzer's copy, but the second page in there's


1 a memorandum from Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix and then 2 behind it there's a letter dated May 30, 1994 that 3 appears to have been authored by you and Wade Lacroix; is 4 that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And this was -- this package was used 7 for the training with respect to the West Lambton 8 officers? 9 A: Do -- 10 Q: I mean the Lambton Officers. 11 A: Yeah, in -- that's right, Lambton 12 County. 13 Q: Lambton County Officers. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And this particular package of 16 material relates to both 1994 and 1995, which we will see 17 shortly, but was there training in both 1994 and 1995? 18 A: I recall a two (2) day training 19 session in '94. I don't recall... 20 Q: At the back of the document there's a 21 -- the document's not -- is -- isn't numbered, Inspector 22 Wright, but about ten (10) pages in from the back -- 23 A: I see. 24 Q: -- there's a memo, March 29th, 1995, 25 then April 20th, 1995, relating to training and the -- in


1 1995? And then there's a note May 18th, 1995, 2 instructors were Bouwman, Wright, and Seltzer? 3 A: Well -- 4 Q: Does that help you? 5 A: -- I stand to be corrected but I 6 think that he's used the wrong year. I -- I just -- I 7 don't recall doing this -- this twice. 8 Q: Okay. But in any event in 1994 you 9 participated in this training? 10 A: Yes. Just -- if I can just have a 11 moment. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I would 16 ask that this package of material be marked the next 17 exhibit? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1093, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1093: Document Number 2000341. 22 Lambton County Training 23 Manual, including 24 miscellaneous memoranda. 25 Originated by Officers in


1 charge including Mark 2 Wright, June 1994. 3 4 THE WITNESS: I only have a -- my -- my 5 memory only serves me that I conducted this training 6 once. I don't recall doing it twice but clearly there's 7 a date here that says it would have appeared to have 8 happened twice but I don't recall that. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And if I could take you to the 12 beginning of this document, P-1093, Inspector Wright. 13 And the first memorandum is a memorandum from Staff 14 Sergeant Wade Lacroix and the third paragraph down is a 15 reference to -- the -- the first paragraph actually 16 refers to CFB Ipperwash and then the third paragraph 17 relates to the response -- what the response would be 18 when called by the Military to occurrences on the Base. 19 And this deals principally with the 20 Military Base; is that correct? 21 A: Yes it -- right. Correct. 22 Q: And at the top of the second page of 23 the memorandum of Wade Lacroix it's -- there's a heading: 24 "It is imperative that the Ontario 25 Provincial Police be seen by all


1 parties as neutral in this ongoing land 2 dispute." 3 And that's the land dispute at CFB 4 Ipperwash? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that was the position of the OPP 7 at the time? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then the -- there's a reference 10 to -- in that first paragraph in at the top of the second 11 page asking off -- directing officers not to take coffee 12 breaks or extended visits at the Military Base, that 13 serious criminal offenses should be investigated if there 14 was an obvious eye-witness and officers should not take 15 it upon themselves to enter into the occupied area to 16 effect an arrest or interview witnesses without first 17 noting -- notifying the area crime sergeant; and that was 18 you? 19 A: Yes. And the prob -- I see there's 20 no date on this document. And, I mean, I don't know that 21 this memo necessarily flowed with this package. 22 Q: So it may have been a separate -- 23 A: I -- I think it's separate because 24 this -- it -- at that time there were two (2) staff 25 sergeants in Lambton County; Lacroix was one (1) and


1 Bouwman was the other. And although this area would have 2 normally been in Bouwman's area, Lacroix was put in 3 charge of incidents revolving around that particular 4 area. That's -- 5 Q: Around the Military Base. 6 A: Yeah. And I think what he's doing 7 here is he's identifying the standard operating procedure 8 with respect to occurrences on CFB Ipperwash. But I 9 don't think -- my recollection is that this memo is not - 10 - was not part of the training package with respect to 11 West Ipperwash problem. 12 I -- I have no -- I recall this memo now 13 that I've seen it and I know that was our standard 14 operating procedure and this is how we were going to 15 deal, this is how we wanted things dealt with with 16 regards to the -- the Base. 17 I don't take issue with that. I just -- 18 I'm not so sure that there's -- 19 Q: It's in the wrong place. 20 A: -- a nexus between these two (2), 21 yes. 22 Q: The -- the Wade Lacroix memorandum 23 may be in this package of material now but you don't 24 believe it was back in 1994 that it didn't go with your - 25 - the training that you were doing?


1 A: I -- I'm just not sure. I don't know 2 if he's taken the opportunity at this particular time to 3 -- to put this into -- you know, we have a policing 4 problem at West Ipperwash Beach and by the way, this is 5 how we're going to operate on -- at Canadian Forces Base 6 Ipperwash. 7 Because the problem here, and I think it 8 needs to be said, is that Lambton County at this time was 9 separate Detachment so there was still not a sense like 10 it is today where it's one (1) large working Detachment 11 and they're all belong -- they're one (1) entity. 12 There was definitely separate entities at 13 that time. And so one needed to do some politicking to 14 get people to understand that you know, a policing 15 problem in what was known as, used to be Forest area, was 16 now also Petrolia's area and Sombra's area because we 17 were all Lambton County. 18 So, you know, this is I think an attempt - 19 - one of many attempts to get the message that everybody 20 had a stake in the policing of that area. If you were a 21 Lambton County officer regardless of where you, you know, 22 reported to in the morning, this was potentially your 23 problem, the whole area. 24 Q: The whole area. In effect getting 25 everyone -- helping the integration process from the


1 separate Detachments to the more unified approach that 2 was taking place. 3 A: Yeah. And it was important -- I was 4 -- crime management was relatively new and the situation 5 existed where normally an incident would take place at a 6 Detachment and whoever the uniformed sergeant was, 7 regardless basically of the call, short of murder or 8 something very serious, they would handle it. 9 Well, now they instituted, like a crime 10 management program where I was, you know, coming to a 11 Detachment that I didn't belong to if I may use that 12 term, and taking over the -- the management of that call 13 which was somewhat problematic to begin with. 14 So Lacroix here is paving the way for me, 15 that, you know, there's going to be occurrences and part 16 of the notification got to be the area crime supervisor 17 which is me which makes things a little easier for me to 18 deal with the situation. 19 Q: Okay. And at page 3 of this document 20 there's a document May 30, 1994, and it's the memorandum 21 by you, the first three (3) pages and then an addition by 22 Wade Lacroix; is that correct? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And this was the document that you 25 used with respect to the training?


1 A: Right. 2 Q: And as you indicate in the third 3 paragraph of this letter, the -- you're referring to the 4 West -- the Ipperwash Cottage Owners' Association and 5 their concern. You indicate: 6 "The Reader's Digest version of what 7 they had to say can be summed up by 8 saying that they were under the 9 impression that they would receive 10 little to no action on our part when 11 they call for police to deal with 12 Natives [quote] 'harassing' [close 13 quote] them, their families and their 14 property." 15 And then you set out the position about 16 the -- the lawsuit, the issue of colour of right, the 17 issue with respect to trespass charges and then indicate 18 what can be due -- can be done with respect to any 19 complaint, be it from a cottage owner or a member of the 20 First Nation with respect to the beach. 21 A: Right. And I -- sir, I'd also like 22 to make the point, because again I think it's important, 23 because I still police in this community, is that the -- 24 when I say that I met with members of the West Ipperwash 25 Cottage Owners Association and it was related to me about


1 their concerns about a First Nations officer, I didn't 2 mean to suggest that everybody living in the West 3 Ipperwash beach area was of that opinion. 4 And I want to make sure that I -- that 5 that's clear, that that concern was from a specific and 6 very minute number of people insofar as the entire number 7 of people who were living there, and I wouldn't want 8 anybody to get the wrong impression about the people that 9 lived down there. 10 Q: So that there were some people who 11 were concerned and many others who didn't express their 12 concern? 13 A: Yeah. Oh, well I guess the point I 14 make -- trying to make here, apparently not very well, is 15 that there were some individuals who obviously had a 16 problem with the fact that a First Nations Off -- a First 17 Nations Officer was going to attend, just the mere fact 18 that they were First Nations was problematic. 19 Well, I just want -- the point I'm trying 20 to make here is that that was -- that's not indicative of 21 the entire population down there; that was a very few 22 people that made that complaint to me that I explained 23 that I was taking aback by. 24 But I just wanted to make sure that I made 25 that point crystal clear because there's a lot of good


1 people living in this area and I certainly wouldn't want 2 to have anybody infer that that wasn't the case. 3 Q: And the -- the training as well, as I 4 look through it, I'm not going to go through this 5 training manual, deals in part with Ipperwash Provincial 6 Park at the same time as the West Ipperwash beach? 7 You may not recall that, but -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- there's at least one (1) 10 indication dealing with -- item 18, that complainant 11 advises that persons had blocked Matheson Drive. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- and are charging admission; that 14 related to -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And then the next, 19, again deals 17 with the Ipperwash beach. You -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Now, the training took place, at 20 least in 1994, according to the roll on the 15th of June 21 and on the 14th of June. And it appears that a total of 22 eighty-two (82) officers in Sombra -- in Lambton County 23 plus three (3) MNR employees have received the training? 24 A: And as well as all the First Nations 25 officers from Kettle Point.


1 Q: And the Kettle Point First Nations 2 officers as well? 3 A: Yeah, the whole unit, including their 4 supervisor. 5 Q: And that -- at that time it was -- 6 A: Miles Bressette. 7 Q: Miles Bressette. And there -- the 8 training as well dealt with West Ipperwash beach, 9 principally in 1995 although there's a reference and a 10 memorandum from Ms. -- Sergeant Bouwman dated April 20th 11 to CFB Ipperwash and it appears that the training took 12 place on May 18th, 1995 with you, Sergeant Bouwman and 13 Sergeant Seltzer and that's Brad Seltzer? 14 A: Yes. We -- we must have done it 15 twice and I -- I don't recall. 16 Q: And then it appears that Inspector 17 Linton attended one of the -- 18 A: Oh, yeah. 19 Q: -- one of the training sessions? 20 A: Right, yes. 21 Q: Okay. Now, at Tab 10, there's a let 22 -- a document, Inquiry Document 2001356, and it's a 23 letter from Staff Sergeant Bouwman dated September 8th, 24 1994 and it's addressed to the Superintendent and it 25 relates to -- have you seen this letter before, Inquiry


1 Document 2001356? 2 A: Before today? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Yes, I have. 5 Q: And this was a complaint lodged 6 against you, Constable Speck, and Garnet Matthews? 7 A: Yes. I -- I think what's going on 8 here is Wessels and MacNally respond to a complaint in 9 the West Ipperwash Beach area, actually I'm sure of it, 10 this is what's going on here, and they respond pursuant 11 to their training. 12 And the individual who's the recipient of 13 this measured response makes a complaint, and because 14 I've done the training I think they're reverting the -- 15 the -- complaint is coming back to my superintendent 16 because these officers are acting pursuant to the 17 training that they got, and this individual is taking 18 issue with that -- 19 Q: And what -- 20 A: -- I think. 21 Q: -- if anything, happened as a result 22 of this? 23 A: Nothing. I don't -- all I recall -- 24 I've read this before I came here today but before that I 25 have no independent recollection of this, frankly.


1 Q: So -- and -- but did you see this 2 letter in the fall of 1994? 3 A: I'm sure I would have, yes. 4 Q: Perhaps we would mark that the next 5 exhibit? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1094, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1094: Document Number 2001356. 9 Letter from K. Bouwman to 10 Superintendent of OPP re. 11 Citizen's letter, Sept. 12 08/'94. 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 15 the -- for the public copy, that the names of the 16 individuals other than the elected officials be redacted. 17 Commissioner, is that...? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 19 fine. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Now this was a -- as I read the 25 complaint, it was a complaint made by one (1) of the


1 cottage owners with respect to the -- someone being 2 arrested or someone being dealt with on the beach by one 3 (1) of your officers? 4 A: I -- I don't know -- I don't know 5 that. 6 Q: You can't recall? 7 A: No, and they -- and I should make the 8 -- they wouldn't be one (1) of my officers. I was -- 9 Q: One (1) of the -- 10 A: -- a mere sergeant then, yes. 11 Q: One (1) of the OPP. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: A member of the OPP? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, in 1994, other than the training 16 and what you've told us, is there anything of -- any 17 other items of significance that you dealt with in 1994 18 in relation to Ipperwash, either the Camp Ipperwash, the 19 West Ipperwash Beach or Ipperwash Provincial Park? 20 A: Not that I recall, sir. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: It's the -- I'm not -- the redactions 25 -- we're not redacting the names of the police officers


1 it's simply the -- the citizens. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 3 civilians, the citizens. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. The non police 5 officers? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Non police 7 officers. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Everybody, it's just 9 that it's -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 11 better term, a better term. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now, can I take you to 1995 and 15 there's an entry that deals with Ipperwash on May 20th, 16 1995, it's page 40A. Can you tell us what this relates 17 to? 18 A: This is, again, surveillance on the 19 beach at CFB Ipperwash with a number of officers and I've 20 made notes here that: 21 "Numerous Natives are driving along 22 beach and into the dunes. Photos 23 obtained. Natives also attempting to 24 sell fish and 25 hot dogs and hamburgers on DND area.


1 Numerous patrols by MP's along beach 2 and into dunes area." 3 Q: And so that was simply you attended 4 on May the 20th and made those observations? 5 A: Yeah. We were there, once again, 6 just to see if there was potentially a problem with 7 campers wandering onto DND property and creating a 8 problem. 9 Q: And then the next entry is June 20th 10 1995 at -- can you tell us what that's about? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I attended a meeting. Now, I'm an 15 acting detective staff sergeant, as opposed to an area 16 crime sergeant and I'm meeting with Inspector Carson, 17 acting Inspector Martin, Superintendent Parkin, 18 Superintendent Baranoski, Chief Superintendent Coles, 19 Inspector Linton and Staff Sergeant Bouwman regarding 20 potential problems at CFB Ipperwash. 21 But I don't have an independent 22 recollection of what we did at that time. 23 Q: And -- and perhaps we could take a 24 look at Exhibit P-499. And... 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me for a 4 moment, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And the -- Inspector Parkin had a 11 note with respect to this particular meeting, Inspector 12 Wright, identified as something responsible for 13 operational issues in region. 14 Does that assist you at all? 15 A: Well, I note that there's a rather 16 large gathering of Commissioned officers there and I 17 suspect perhaps what's going on here is that, once again, 18 we're having -- it's a reorg issue where a number of 19 individuals, reorg take -- the reorganization of this -- 20 our particular area is -- has now come to a point where 21 these senior officers are coming down to chat and to be 22 briefed on the issues surrounding CFB Ipperwash. 23 Q: Inspector John Carson, when he 24 testified, indicated that it was an update meeting -- an 25 update of the issues regarding Ipperwash.


1 Carson gave a historical review to date, 2 an update on intelligence information and the Military 3 involvement and criminal activity that had been taking 4 place in the area. 5 Does that assist? 6 A: Right. And -- and I think, you know, 7 if you -- one went into the logs that we were doing in 8 and around that time, that that would be indicative of -- 9 of what, if any, activity was going on at CFB Ipperwash. 10 Q: And in June of 1995, as well, there's 11 in Exhibit P-1087, you have a note of June 28th that has 12 a reference to Ipperwash. 13 Can you tell us what that is, sir? June 14 28th, 1995. It's in the separate little group of 15 materials. 16 A: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: It says here I guess the -- the part 21 that is of concern here is -- I'm having a difficult time 22 reading my own writing but -- 23 Q: It says "Meeting with Linton and 24 O'Hagan regarding new Ipperwash problems. 25 A: Right. And I -- I wouldn't know 28th


1 of June -- I wouldn't know what they are without some 2 sort of assistance or going into the logs to see if 3 there's anything that correlates back to that. 4 Q: But there was an issue -- there's 5 refuse -- it refers to an issue of taking place. We know 6 that there was some activity from other evidence at the 7 end of June 1995 and that would be probably relating to 8 that without going there. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: Now if I could take you back to the 11 June 20th meeting, there's in Exhibit P-499. The -- 12 Superintendent Parkin indicated that at the June 20th 13 meeting he was briefed on the Ipperwash situation around 14 -- what had transpired in 1993 when some First Nations 15 persons had moved onto the Army Base: 16 "We discussed the general methodology 17 used by the OPP in dealing with the 18 occupation given that it was a land 19 dispute relating to ownership and that 20 part of the occupation had been 21 peaceful. 22 The OPP had advised the Military that 23 we would not remove those occupying the 24 lands and the Military should seek 25 resolution through court process and


1 seek a court injunction for direction 2 on the occupation." 3 Does that assist you with respect to the 4 discussion? 5 A: I know that that was in fact the 6 case. I know if you go back to -- oh, pardon me, I'm 7 getting my chronology mixed up because I know when they 8 take over the -- the built-up area, Inspector Carson 9 makes that clear to -- 10 Q: But this is on June 20th? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: The meeting with -- attended by among 13 others, Mr. Parkin. Then in -- June 30th there's a note: 14 "Inspector Linton regarding reporting 15 update on Ipperwash. Call made to 16 Speck regarding instructions covering 17 the rest of Glenn George and [then 18 someone else]." 19 Does that -- can you tell us what that 20 note refers to? It's June 30th, 1995. 21 A: I think that's -- 22 Q: That's in the handout. 23 A: Right. I think that's in regards to 24 an allegation of an assault on a -- I don't know if it 25 was an officer or a Commissionaire, somebody from CFB


1 Ipperwash. I think as I recall I think that's what 2 that's about. 3 And an arrest warrant I think. I don't 4 know if we actually did the arrest then or not. But I 5 believe that's what that relates to. 6 Q: And that's with respect to an 7 incident at CFB Ipperwash? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: When did you first learn of the 10 takeover of the built-up area of Camp Ipperwash? 11 A: The day it happened, on -- on the 12 29th of July. 13 Q: And how did you learn? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I was -- I got a call from the: 18 "Communications centre and advised 19 that some Natives had taken over the 20 built up area of the Base and had 21 rammed an MP vehicle and smashed 22 through the gates and wall of the mess 23 hall." 24 Q: And what did you do? 25 A: I attended the location.


1 Q: And who did you attend with? 2 A: And I attended -- I attend -- I was 3 in London at the time and Carson pick -- acting super -- 4 I've got in my note that "acting Superintendent Carson 5 picked me up from London." 6 So -- and I only recall him picking me up 7 from London on one(1) occasion and I think and please 8 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I said that at the 9 Matheson Drive incident he picked me up in London and 10 that can't be right. 11 It would have only been -- my recollection 12 is he only did that once, this call here. 13 Q: So the -- the -- he picked you up in 14 London with respect to the July 29th, 1995 -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- takeover to the Provincial -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- the built up area. 19 A: Yeah. I just -- I don't remember him 20 picking me up twice -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- in London. And we attended 23 together and we arrived at what I called the kiosk which 24 is the main entrance to CFB Ipperwash. 25 Q: And that's the main entrance just


1 north of the intersection between Army Camp Road and 2 Highway 21? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And it's on the west side of the Park 5 but the east side of Army Camp Road? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Okay. I mean the west side of the 8 Army Camp, but the east side of the Army Camp Road? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: Okay. Yes, and what happened then? 11 A: And I attended there and it was a 12 rather tense situation. There were some other uniformed 13 officers there. We were briefed by a Captain McDonald, 14 that's what my notes say. I'm not so sure if that's the 15 right officer, but that's what my notes say. 16 And I've got in my notes that: 17 "The OPP's position was they were the 18 landlords and we would require an 19 injunctive to move the Natives off. 20 Our position that Natives were 21 trespassing. However, if you freely 22 gave them access to the buildings they 23 were committing any criminal offence." 24 And this is -- I'm basically regurgitating 25 in my notes what Inspector -- or acting superintendent


1 Carson is telling the Military official. 2 Q: At this point in time, the occupiers 3 were in three (3) buildings and had been permitted by the 4 Military to go into those buildings? 5 A: Right, that's my recollection. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And we called a number of officers in 8 and we called an identification unit in and we wanted to 9 go inside beyond the -- the barrier and go into the Park 10 proper in order to do some -- 11 Q: This is the camp proper? 12 A: Sorry, thank you very much. Into the 13 camp proper to conduct our criminal investigation, 14 particularly in regards to our identification officers 15 because the jeep had been rammed and we wanted to take 16 some pictures and that sort of thing. 17 So it was a bit of a problem with that 18 because, as I recall, the Military said we wouldn't -- 19 we, the OPP, wouldn't enter onto the Base without our 20 firearms and my recollection is acting Superintendent 21 Carson took issue with that, that that was part of our 22 working uniform. 23 And I frankly don't recall how that issue 24 was resolved, but I know we entered onto the Base proper 25 to do what we needed to do with respect to conduct our


1 criminal investigation. 2 Now, we didn't go very far and I 3 personally -- I -- I went into the Base, onto the Base 4 and I would have -- wouldn't have been any further than 5 thirty (30) feet from that kiosk at any one time. 6 I mean, we were right there at the 7 opening, 'cause that's as far as where I went and the 8 other officers didn't go much farther than that, either. 9 Q: So that you went in thirty (30) feet, 10 approximately thirty (30) feet from the entrance to the 11 Army Camp and most of the other officers stayed in the 12 same area; didn't go beyond that either. 13 A: Yeah, that's my -- we were -- 14 everything was basically there that I recall that we 15 needed photographs of. 16 Q: And what else happened on that day? 17 Can you -- do you have any recollection or...? 18 A: Yeah, we brought -- we brought some 19 ERT officers down to supplement the patrols and, you 20 know, there's -- there's much mention of ERT throughout 21 the -- my notes. 22 And as a general theme and frankly one of 23 the -- the major reason why we called ERT out was because 24 the OPP was such that, you know, to get fifteen (15) OPP 25 officers in one place at one time rather quickly was


1 somewhat difficult because most Detachments weren't that 2 big. So to pull fifteen (15) people out of Forest 3 Detachment for example would constitute a significant 4 drain on their manpower with which to police anywhere 5 else. 6 But if one (1) called for the One District 7 ERT Team that team composed of fifteen (15) officers from 8 Detachments throughout what was once called Number 1 9 District so you, you know, to coin the phrase you kind of 10 shared the hurt throughout that area so not any one 11 Detachment is particularly impacted by the fact that 12 we're -- we're pulling fifteen (15) OPP officers to one 13 particular area. 14 So that was a commonly -- and we -- 15 certainly I was aware of that, Inspector Carson was aware 16 of that, anybody who was doing any kind of major 17 occurrences or potential major occurrences was aware that 18 that -- that was available and that was a very quick way 19 to bring people to bear to a situation. So that's what 20 we did. 21 Q: So that -- the -- here -- ERT team 22 was called out and as you said the -- calling out an ERT 23 team would mean that officers would come from a number of 24 different Detachments and not for example all from the 25 Forest Detachment?


1 A: Yes, and -- and what's particularly 2 helpful with that, not only would fifteen (15) officers 3 come but they'd come with one (1) or two (2) NCO's with 4 which to supervise them directly which is very helpful as 5 well. 6 Q: And so that the fifteen (15) officers 7 would come with a -- with a -- 8 A: ERT sergeant. 9 Q: And the ERT sergeant was he counted 10 among the fifteen (15) or was he or she separate? 11 A: I think he -- I think he was. I 12 think he was. 13 Q: So it was a fifteen (15) person unit? 14 A: Right. Correct. 15 Q: Then there's a reference: 16 "Attend strategy meeting with Carson 17 while waiting outcome of meeting with 18 Camp Commander and leaders of these 19 people. Upon conclusion of meeting 20 told by Captain that he would give them 21 the three (3) buildings and..." 22 A: "They would try to co-exist" is what 23 that says. 24 Q: Try to co-exist? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And then he was going to await 2 personnel from Toronto? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And then what did you do? 5 A: Well, so we organized a schedule for 6 the ERT officers regarding a patrol and there's a note in 7 my notebook: 8 "Discuss -- discussion [pardon me] 9 regarding threat to Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park." 11 And I don't -- I don't remember this 12 specific threat that was made in regards to Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park but certainly throughout the summer we -- 14 we were aware that there were -- I don't know if the 15 proper term is allegations or... 16 The -- the message had come to us, us 17 being the police that perhaps that may be property that 18 may be involved in an occupation, that is Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park. 20 Q: And on -- you can't -- your note on 21 July 29th, 1995, indicates that there was a discussion 22 regarding the: 23 "The threat to Ipperwash Provincial 24 Park and review reactive approach to 25 any attempt to take Ipperwash


1 Provincial Park?" 2 A: Right. So that -- 3 Q: And -- 4 A: Sorry. 5 Q: And so -- but you can't recall today 6 what you were referring to regarding the threat to 7 Ipperwash Provincial -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: "And review reactive approach to any 10 attempt to take Ipperwash Provincial Park.' What's that 11 refer to, sir? 12 A: Well, I think what that means to me 13 is that if they were going to take -- if they were going 14 to occupy Ipperwash Provincial Park, that we had, it 15 would appear, some sort of reactionary plan to deal with 16 that potential occupation. That's what I take from my 17 notes. 18 Q: Okay. Do you have any other 19 recollection today? 20 A: No, no. 21 Q: Then, if I could -- what time did you 22 finish on July 30th? 23 A: Well -- 24 Q: I mean July 29th -- 25 A: Right.


1 Q: -- this is July 29th. 2 A: Well what -- what we -- Inspec -- no, 3 Acting Superintendent Carson and I went from that call to 4 a barricaded person down in Windsor. So my recollection 5 is we didn't stop working until the wee hours of the next 6 morning after we had gone down to the Windsor area, dealt 7 with that major occurrence. 8 And then we made our way back to, as I 9 recall, Wallaceburg and some time in the early morning 10 hours we took a room there. 11 And then we turned around and we went 12 right back to -- to deal with the CFB Ipperwash problem 13 because we knew that an officer from Toronto was coming - 14 - an officer in a -- and I mean -- what I mean by that is 15 a Military officer was coming from Toronto to the Base. 16 Q: Okay. And at Tab 11 of the Book of 17 Documents in front of you, there is a copy of a document 18 2000860 which appears to be the scribe notes, CFB 19 Ipperwash incident, 29 July 1995, it's three (3) pages. 20 Have you seen these doc -- these -- this 21 document before, Inspector Wright? 22 A: Before today? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And can you tell us what these are?


1 A: These are -- appear to me to be 2 scribe notes prepared by Provincial Constable Fitzgerald 3 regarding some of the incident involving CFB Ipperwash 4 and the takeover of the built-up area of the Military 5 Base. 6 Q: Okay. And there's a reference on the 7 second page, 18:29: 8 "Detective Sergeant Mark Wright, ATS 9 Forest." 10 What's that mean? 11 A: That's, 'At the scene, Forest.' 12 Q: And then you left the Forest and went 13 to, as you said, to Wallaceburg and -- 14 A: First Windsor -- 15 Q: To Windsor. 16 A: -- the Windsor area, then back to 17 Wallaceburg, then back to Forest area. 18 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 19 exhibit. These three (3) pages. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1095, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1095: Document Number 2000860. 23 Scribe notes, CFB Ipperwash 24 Incident, July 29/'95. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then your notes on -- can you tell us 3 what you did on, it says 30 August but it's crossed out, 4 30 July '95, what you did with respect to CFB Ipperwash? 5 A: I returned back to the Base and I 6 noted that the Base signs had been spray painted with 7 Stoney Point First Nation. And I had a discussion with 8 Inspector Carson in regard to the likelihood of a 9 takeover of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 10 And there's -- there's a notation in my 11 notebook. 12 "Information from informant that 13 Natives had weapons and also plan to 14 take Park." 15 Q: And -- 16 A: And it says -- it goes on to say: 17 "Decision was that there may be a 18 likelihood of an attempt to take 19 Ipperwash Provincial Park in addition-" 20 And then I go on and on and on. But, 21 basically, is that we're concerned about the potential 22 takeover of Ipperwash Provincial Park so we begin to 23 discuss planning for -- to deal with that. 24 Q: And what -- do you recall, today, 25 what information that you received that there may be a


1 likelihood of the takeover of Ipperwash -- 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: You don't? 4 A: I don't. 5 Q: And do you recall, today, the 6 information that the occupiers had weapons? 7 A: What the source of that was or...? 8 Q: What information was received -- 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: And you were aware and had been aware 11 prior to July 1995 that the occupiers, many of them were 12 hunters? 13 A: Absolutely. 14 Q: And many of them, as hunters, had 15 rifles, or hunting rifles? 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: And was that what you were referring 18 to in this note or do you recall? 19 A: Well, I don't think it's -- I don't 20 think it was anything ominous, I think it was just the 21 mere fact that the Natives had weapons. 22 I mean, it was just -- I'm somewhat 23 limited because of my lack of recollection, frankly, but, 24 you know, I think you could take it for just -- if I had 25 any more concerns than that I think I would have alluded


1 to that in my notebook. 2 Q: Okay. And then what -- by this time 3 on July 30th, 1995 were you aware that the Military had 4 left the built up area? 5 A: Was I aware? I -- I seem to recall 6 that -- I don't remember exactly if it was that day. My 7 recollection is that this officer came down and they 8 decided, very shortly thereafter, that they were going to 9 leave. 10 Q: And the Military did leave Camp 11 Ipperwash? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us what else you did 14 on July 30th, 1995? 15 A: Sure. Eventually Superintendent 16 Parkin came down, attended the scene, and we -- we 17 developed a strategy with regards to how we were going to 18 deal with our concern about Ipperwash Provincial Park, 19 and I think, to be fair, by the time Superintendent 20 Parkin arrived, Inspector Carson and I had -- were well 21 on our way to developing this plan. 22 Q: And the plan is set out in your 23 notes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that -- can you just tell us what


1 the plan was as reflected in your notes or as you can 2 recall it? 3 A: Sure. We wanted to -- we wanted to 4 have patrols of the -- of Ipperwash Provincial Park and 5 we wanted to have supplementary officers stationed there, 6 so we once again dipped into the ERT team reservoir of 7 officers that -- that I've alluded to earlier. 8 And what we did was we put campers in the 9 Park, four (4) officers, two (2) male, two (2) female in 10 an undercover capacity, in a -- in a trailer that we 11 rented. And we put a two (2) man -- two (2) person 12 patrol that was going to patrol Ipperwash Provincial Park 13 full time, 24/7, for the immediate time being. 14 And there was going to be -- ERT officers 15 were going to be stationed at Pinery Provincial Park and 16 they would act as an immediate response unit, should 17 officers require any assistance at the Park. 18 So there were duty NCO's assigned, and 19 vehicles, and I busied myself with the minutia of that -- 20 that sort of an undertaking, surveillance vehicles and 21 cell phones and where we were going to get the -- who 22 were the campers going to be and how long they were going 23 to be there and all that stuff that needs to be done. 24 And the strategy was the two (2) man unit 25 in the -- the two (2) man unit in the Park, as meaning


1 the patrol vehicle, was to watch for criminal activities 2 on the part of Natives with respect to Ipperwash 3 Provincial Park. If there was a small group involved 4 they were -- they would take appropriate action, and if 5 they required assistance, the ERT team would respond. 6 And then there was -- the undercover OPP 7 officers would also be available in the event that the 8 two (2) person patrol ran into a problem. And the ERT 9 team coming from the Pinery hadn't -- hadn't made it 10 there, then those four (4) officers would -- would engage 11 in the situation, whatever that happened to be, and 12 provide assistance, the appropriate resistant -- 13 assistance to the two (2) officers. 14 Q: Then what -- there's a note on page 15 49: 16 "If there is a threat to the campers at 17 the Park, campers will be removed. The 18 beach will be evacuated by the OPP, not 19 Natives." 20 What's that referring to? 21 A: Okay. That's -- that's about if -- 22 if there is a problem in the Park to the extent that the 23 campers in the Park need to be evacuated, then we, the 24 OPP, would remove the civilian campers and not the First 25 Nations people.


1 They wouldn't be -- we weren't going to -- 2 we didn't want them to be ushering the day campers out, 3 we were going to deal with that. 4 Q: "Then the MNR, as the landlords, will 5 be asked for direction with respect to 6 their wishes if they wanted trespassers 7 removed, and we got authority from 8 Orillia we would remove the 9 trespassers." 10 What's that refer to? 11 A: Well, that's -- that's the flavour 12 from the senior ranks at the meeting there. That's -- I 13 mean, that's nothing that I came up with. 14 And that, I think, in -- in hindsight now 15 dovetails with the, you know, our policy that I -- I 16 wasn't aware of at the time with respect to this was how 17 we would deal with a -- a land claim issue because it 18 dovetails, you know, into this -- into our policy. 19 So -- and clearly, I put it in my notebook 20 so it was made clear to me that this was going to be our 21 policy in the event -- in the event it was going to take 22 place. And by -- what I mean by Orillia is by -- by then 23 our headquarters had moved from Toronto to Orillia. 24 Q: And this particular note doesn't 25 refer to an injunction. And was there any discussion


1 about an injunction, at this point in time, on July 30th, 2 at the meeting you attended? 3 A: Hmm hmm. No, but my -- my sense was 4 always that that was -- I know it's not in my notebook 5 but my recollection is that was part and parcel with -- 6 with the -- with the instructions. They're the 7 landlords. We're not going to act until they do. 8 And I seem to recall talk of an 9 injunction, but, frankly, as you well know, I -- I was 10 intimately involved in an injunction a little later on 11 and I'm not sure if one (1) is overlapping the other. 12 Q: And was there any understanding or 13 had -- was there any discussion at this meeting, at this 14 time on July 30th, the number of people that you 15 contemplated might go to the Provincial Park? 16 A: Pardon me? 17 Q: The number of people that might be 18 involved that you were planning for? 19 A: Not that I -- not that I note in my - 20 - not that I've noted in my -- my notebook entries. 21 Q: Is there anything else you can recall 22 about this meeting? 23 A: No. No, sir. 24 Q: Perhaps it would be a good time to 25 break for the lunch break?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 We'll break for lunch. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 4 adjourned until 1:15. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 1:16 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed. Please be seated. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: On a housekeeping note, Commissioner, 14 the -- over the lunch break Inspector Wright checked his 15 notes with respect to May 18th, 1995, and in fact you 16 were involved in training in May -- on May 18th, 1995, 17 with respect to the response of officers? 18 A: Yes, I was, sir. 19 Q: And I suggest, sir, that we add the 20 one (1) page; there's one (1) page of notes, May 18th, 21 1995, that we added -- simply added to P-1087. 22 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the small bundle 24 of documents. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Now, we were at July 30th when we 3 broke for lunch. Can you tell you tell us what you did 4 with respect to the -- Camp Ipperwash on July 31st, 1995, 5 Inspector Wright? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: On July 31st at about ten o'clock at 10 night I received a telephone call at my residence from 11 Detective Constable Mark Dew. My notes indicate it was 12 in regards to movement of Natives throughout the 13 Provincial Park. 14 And the information that I received from 15 Detective Dew at that time was that an individual by the 16 name of Dudley George was attempting to harass, and I've 17 got "edge" but I'm sure that should be 'egg people on'. 18 Confrontations at -- at the area that divides Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park and CFB Ipperwash. 20 Q: And that would be the area at the end 21 of Matheson Drive as it goes out to the beach? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And I made a call to Inspector Carson 25 I and left from my home and he left from his and we


1 attended the area. There were some ERT officers there to 2 assist at the scene and my recollection of what took 3 place was, the information I got from Dew was that Mr. 4 George was I guess confrontational is what you'd call it 5 with some campers there and -- and my recollection is two 6 (2) different sets of campers. 7 Somebody who was taking their boat off of 8 the -- bringing their boat out of the lake -- 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: -- as well as another couple in and 11 around the area. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: In any event my notes say that I 14 observed a large campfire about 1 to 1 1/2 kilometres 15 down the beach and I saw one (1) male and one (1) female 16 Native and I've got "guarding" in quotation marks the 17 area between the Camp and the Park. There were a large 18 number of campers walking down to the water near the 19 dividing line; that would be the Matheson Drive -- where 20 Matheson Drive would end. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: And there were a number of cars were 23 driving on the beach at a high rate of speed, fish- 24 tailing and -- and generally disturbing -- making a -- 25 rather large disturbances but -- with vehicles, the sound


1 of the engine, and -- and the manner in which they were 2 being operated. 3 Q: That was on the Camp Ipperwash side 4 of the beach? 5 A: Yes. That's correct. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: So we arranged for some additional 8 patrols and I recall a vehicle leaving the area at a 9 rather -- well I remember it driving in a very erratic 10 fashion and then leaving the area via Matheson Drive. 11 And Inspector Carson and I stayed. Things 12 eventually settled down and quieted down. And Mr. George 13 wasn't anywhere around when I got there. Not that I 14 would know who he was but -- 15 Q: Yes. I was going to ask that 16 question. Did you know who Dudley George was? 17 A: No. I did not. 18 Q: Okay. Yes. Then -- 19 A: And then so we had -- Inspector 20 Carson I guess more accurately had had some additional 21 law officers from the ERT people stationed in Pinery down 22 to supplement the patrols. And by the time we left 23 things had -- had quieted down to what I would say what 24 would -- that I would describe as normal. 25 Q: And did you have any discussions with


1 any of the First Nations people on the Ipperwash -- Camp 2 Ipperwash side of the beach? 3 A: Not that I recall. 4 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 5 A: Then I left with Inspector Carson and 6 we checked into a local motel and then shortly -- 7 Q: That was the Forest Golf and 8 Country -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- Motel? 11 A: Yes. Forest Gold and Country Club, 12 yes it was. And my notes say I checked in at 1:30 and at 13 two o'clock in the morning I -- I received a call. 14 And I was called back out again in regards 15 to a fatal motor vehicle accident that had taken place at 16 the intersection of Matheson Drive -- not at the 17 intersection, but in that general location where Matheson 18 Drive intersects with Army Camp Road. 19 Q: It's the T-intersection as I 20 understand it. It was a T-intersection where Matheson 21 Drive entered Army Camp Road? 22 A: That's correct. And upon my arrival 23 I was directed -- my attention was directed to the ditch 24 on the west side of the roadway; the roadway running 25 north and south. And there was a motor vehicle --


1 Q: The roadway being Army Camp Road? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And there was a motor vehicle down in 5 the ditch. I -- I recall it being quite deep. Frankly, 6 I -- I had driven by that not too awful long ago and had 7 a look there and my recollection, it was much deeper than 8 it is today -- the -- the drop. 9 In any event, there were two (2) victims 10 of a fatal motor vehicle accident with respect to that -- 11 that vehicle and -- and my recollection is that's the 12 vehicle that we last saw fish-tailing out on Matheson 13 Drive at a high rate of speed. That's my recollection. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: And I -- I recall the uniformed 16 officer that was there. He conducted a -- was conducting 17 a fatal -- a motor vehicle accident investigation and a 18 number of First Nations people -- I don't know how they 19 became aware that there was a fatal. 20 But in any event, while I was there a 21 number of First Nations people came across. And I can't 22 remember the number of them but they wanted to perform a 23 -- an Aboriginal ceremony on the recently deceased 24 parties. And by this time we -- the officers had 25 actually gone down into the ditch and -- and brought the


1 people up out of the water. 2 And we had them on the side of the road 3 and I remember them doing a ceremony with tobacco. So we 4 -- we moved a respectful distance away and -- and that 5 ceremony was completed. 6 Q: Okay. And do you recall who was 7 among -- do you recall any of the names of the 8 individuals who came across to -- carried out the 9 ceremony? 10 A: No. I -- I know there was more than 11 one (1) and my recollection it was a man conducted the -- 12 the ceremony, because I -- I had never seen that done 13 before and I was watching. 14 Q: And then what did you do? 15 A: Well, you know, it was a -- it was a 16 tragic incident there. We -- we -- as any fatal is, as 17 any death scene is. 18 You know, you try to deal, you know, I 19 tried to deal with the people that were there. They were 20 upset about the loss of life and we concerned ourselves 21 with may -- making notification regarding next of kin. 22 And I know we talked about -- my notes 23 there -- my notes say we had additional ERT officers out 24 there, and that would be again, ERT officers as in 25 additional officers that we can handle -- get our -- we


1 can assign to whatever had to be done in that area. 2 Q: And you had, at this point, ERT 3 officers at Pinery. Were they the -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- ERT officers that were called out? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: And then it says here about our 9 community service officers who was called out to prepare 10 a press release. And my notes say that at 5:30 in the 11 morning I went off duty, but I was back in again at ten 12 o'clock to deal with the situation. 13 Q: And then you were off duty at 5:30 on 14 July 31st then back on duty on August the 1st? 15 A: Well, I'd be off at 5:30 in the early 16 morning hours -- 17 Q: Of -- of August 1st? 18 A: -- of the 1st of August and back in 19 at four and a half (4 1/2) hours later on the morning -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: -- of the 1st of August. 22 Q: And when you say you were back in, 23 were you at -- where were you at? 24 A: Forest, I went to -- 25 Q: Forest?


1 A: -- Forest Detachment. 2 Q: Yes. And what did you do on August 3 the 1st? 4 A: Well, my notes indicate that I busied 5 myself with the replacement camp -- campers, replacement 6 campers, replacement ERT team and replacement duty NCO 7 for that camping detail and that plan that we had put 8 together that I'd spoken to -- alluded to early -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- earlier. And then at about four 11 o'clock in the afternoon, I met with Glenn George at what 12 I call the kiosk to CFB Ipperwash. 13 Q: And the kiosk again is the entrance 14 gate to the -- the Army Camp? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And did you know Glenn George? 17 A: I dealt with -- yes, by -- I knew Mr. 18 George, because I had dealt with a number of people at 19 the gate throughout the summer and throughout this whole 20 ordeal off and on, depending on what the occurrences 21 were. 22 Because we -- we would -- there would be 23 occasions where there would be motor vehicles that we 24 would want to retrieve off of the CFB Ipperwash and we 25 would -- we would talk to somebody at the gate. And many


1 times I was involved in that sort of thing and so I got 2 to know Mr. George, amongst others, I guess -- 3 Q: And when you say at the gate that -- 4 was it a gate along Highway 21, prior to July 29th, 1995 5 or would you meet Mr. George or others at the main gate 6 of the Army Camp during the period of time the Army was 7 still there? 8 A: No. I didn't -- the answer to your 9 question is I wouldn't -- I didn't meet anybody at the 10 kiosk until the First Nations people were in control of 11 the entire property. 12 Q: Okay. And when you -- the gate that 13 you referred to before was along Highway 21? 14 A: Right. I'd meet them -- 15 Q: Well, I'm just trying to clarify 16 that. So you had a meeting with Glenn George. Do you 17 recall, was there anyone else present? 18 I believe Inspector Carson was -- was 19 Inspector Carson at this meeting? 20 A: I don't think so. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: No. I'm sure he sent me to go see 23 Mr. George, because I was there to go -- talk to him 24 about a number of issues, because our concern was, 25 obviously, the fatal motor vehicle accident that we had


1 had the night before. 2 Q: Okay. And who else -- do you recall 3 who else was at the meeting? 4 Was Mr. Speck at the meeting? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I don't recall. I don't have it 9 noted in my -- in my notebook. 10 Q: What about Mr. Bouwman? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I -- I certainly recall the conver -- 17 I recall being engaged in a conversation with Mr. -- Mr. 18 Glenn George -- 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: -- and we talked about -- there was a 21 -- a gate, a swing gate at the end of Matheson Drive as 22 it comes to the T-intersection with Army Camp Road. And 23 normally that would be locked -- that would have been 24 locked by MNR, but since the takeover the -- my notes 25 indicated that the -- the occupiers had -- had a key to


1 this and we agreed that we were going to give the key to 2 MNR so that they could lock down that road at the -- at 3 night so that people couldn't take that roadway at night. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: Because rather -- if -- coming -- 6 moving east to west on Matheson Drive as it approaches 7 Army Camp Road, it's very, very dark there so, you know, 8 that -- that created a hazard on its own and when you 9 have excessive speed potentially you have a, you know, a 10 serious problem. 11 In any event, we also agreed that we put 12 out a joint press release regarding ride checks and what 13 had -- what had taken place in -- as a result of the 14 accident, what -- a statement by the First Nations people 15 that were occupying the Park. 16 We wanted to be seen as working together 17 because Mr. George was concerned about what had happened 18 and he was concerned that there were a number of people 19 coming onto the property that weren't -- weren't living 20 there but were there for the weekend, and -- and this 21 caused him concern. I've got here: 22 "Concerned about Natives from other 23 areas coming in and creating trouble." 24 And, you know, it was -- we had a very 25 productive -- I recall we had a very productive meeting.


1 He was genuinely very concerned and upset and -- and, you 2 know, there was a real positive spirit of cooperation as 3 far as we need to do something about this. 4 Q: Okay. I wonder if we could provide 5 the -- to Inspector Wright a copy of Exhibit P-411, 6 please? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And if you could go to page 43, turn 14 to page 43? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And you'll see a note. This is the 17 log that you asked to be kept, the CFB Ipperwash 18 Incidence Log? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And you'll see an entry at 16:00 21 hours. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: On page 43. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And there's -- it's a meeting with,


1 and although it's redacted it's -- the meeting was with 2 Glenn George; we know that. And the -- this, I take it, 3 was entered as a result of -- from your notes? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And if you could turn the page 6 there's an entry of Staff Sergeant Bouwman, it's on page 7 44? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And his entry starts at 4:30. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the entry attributed to him says: 12 "Meeting at CFB main gate. Present was 13 Sergeant Wright and Speck." 14 And the names that are blacked out are 15 Glenn George, Rose Manning, and Terry George. And do you 16 recall -- did the meeting -- do you recall Constable 17 Speck, Sergeant Bouwman, being at the meeting? 18 A: Vaguely. I remember that now, with 19 the assistance of this. 20 Q: And do you recall, in addition to 21 Glenn George, two (2) other individuals being repre -- 22 people from the Army Camp being at the meeting? 23 A: I don't remember that. 24 Q: And with respect to the notes from 25 Mr. -- Sergeant Bouwman, the -- there's -- he reflects


1 that the discussion about the Park -- excuse me, about 2 the gate and then he indicates that, and I believe this 3 is Glenn George, stated the road and the Park was theirs 4 and never given up by them, advised that, as far as we 5 were concerned, legally, the road belonged to Bosanquet 6 and the Park belonged to the MNR. 7 And do you recall then, Sergeant Bouwman 8 goes on: 9 "Again stated the Park was theirs. 10 They never agreed to give up the Park 11 because it contained their cemetery and 12 burial ground. Someone to shut-up 13 twice before she finally did. 14 Advised them that we would not get 15 involved in their land disputes, that 16 was for them to work out." 17 Does that assist -- do you recall that 18 discussion happening at the meeting? 19 A: No, I -- no, I don't have an 20 independent recollection of that, sir, but that was the 21 whole point. I don't take issue with the fact that that 22 took place and that was the whole idea of why we did 23 these logs, so that, you know, we'd capture that -- that 24 -- these sort of things. 25 But I don't remember those details.


1 Q: Okay. And then on the next page 2 there's a discussion about the lock, and the key to the 3 lock, and then: 4 "Talked about OPP First Nations 5 officers coming to talk to them, B. 6 George, P. George, L. George and T. 7 Bressette, on an informal basis. 8 Advised him it was up to individual 9 officers to do so on their own, in own 10 time. Explained our people have to 11 remain neutral to be able to respond to 12 everyone's concerns and problems such 13 as Kettle Point, Stoney Point and non- 14 Natives alike." 15 Now was there a request, by Glenn George 16 or the other people at the meeting, that First Nations -- 17 OPP First Nations officers be used to speak to them? 18 A: I don't -- I don't recall that. 19 Q: And do you recall that suggestion 20 being not taken up by you and Sergeant Bouwman and 21 Constable Speck for the reasons set out in this entry? 22 A: Not being taken up, I don't 23 understand what you mean. 24 Q: Well that -- do you have any 25 recollection of a discussion about the First Nations


1 officers? 2 A: No, I don't. No. I know I have a 3 note in my notes that -- that upon returning back to the 4 Detachment, I received information from Constable L. V. 5 George that he had attended a meeting on Kettle Point and 6 it did not solve anything with respect to Kettle 7 Point/Stoney Point dispute. 8 And I recall that there was some kind of 9 meeting where there was a -- where there was an attempt 10 to discuss the differences between the people from Kettle 11 Point First Nations territory and the people who were now 12 calling themselves -- calling themselves Stoney Point, 13 who were on the Base. 14 There was a meeting in order to see if 15 they could, I think, come to sort of arrangement with 16 what was going on at the Base and that didn't work. 17 Q: And was that reported to you by -- on 18 August the 1st by Luke George? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And at the top of your note on page 21 53 of August 1995, there's a note, "Inspector Linton". 22 What -- do you know what that refers to? 23 Is that -- it's a carry over from the page 24 before. 25 A: I think that's in -- in regards to


1 we're -- we're changing the guard, as it were, with 2 respect to the operation as it related to Ipperwash 3 Provincial Park, and that Inspector Linton was advised. 4 Q: Okay. And had you worked with 5 Inspector Linton before August 1995? 6 A: At some point he -- he ends up in 7 Chatham District Headquarters as I would -- I think the 8 best way to refer to that would be the officer in charge 9 of what was, I think, no longer Number One District, but 10 there was -- they still had a commissioned officer there 11 which would have been Inspector Linton. 12 And I think this refers to, sir, that I've 13 got -- if you look, I've got, on page 15 of my -- or page 14 52 of my notebook, I have duty NCO underlined and then I 15 -- I note who the duty NCO's are and then I -- I have 16 Detective Staff Sergeant and I underlined that and I -- I 17 put in my notebook who that is, that's Detective -- 18 Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Wayne Lickman and then I 19 have Inspector with a line under it and then it's Linton. 20 I think I'm just -- in my notebook 21 demonstrating the chain of command with respect to the 22 next set of people going in there. That was -- Linton 23 was now being involved in what was going on here. 24 Q: In the -- with respect to acting as a 25 Incident Commander or acting with John Carson on the


1 Ipperwash -- Camp Ipperwash matter? 2 A: Yeah. I -- I don't -- I wouldn't 3 phrase it as he would be an incident commander. I think 4 what we have is -- again, is Inspector Carson is in 5 London, geographically speaking, but still looking after 6 this incident, but Inspector Linton is out of Chatham and 7 is overseeing an area that includes this. 8 So it would -- it would just make sense 9 that he know what's going on. 10 Q: Okay. So it was more information -- 11 A: Well yeah. And -- and of course I 12 would report, you know, there's some matrix relationships 13 going on here where I would report to Carson because he 14 was the Incident Commander. 15 But I -- I would also have to report to 16 Linton because he was this commissioned officer for the 17 area in which I was policing. 18 Q: And the question that I'd ask was, 19 had you worked with him before and you said that you 20 would report to him at one point when he came to Chatham 21 and -- 22 A: Yeah. I -- I'm -- I'm sure when that 23 took place, but I believe I'm an Acting Detective Staff 24 Sergeant at this time and he's the Inspector in Chatham, 25 so we would have a rather active relationship with


1 respect to reporting. 2 Q: And then on your note at page 53, at 3 the bottom it says: 4 "Go back and brief Inspector Carson." 5 And that's with respect to the meeting 6 that you had with Glenn George? 7 A: Yes. There was an agreement that we 8 were going to a press release together and -- I mean 9 that's what I recall as the overriding position that -- 10 that concerned me or that I recall, is that we really 11 wanted to get a joint press release out and Mr. George 12 was in agreement to that. 13 I think subject to, you know, him taking 14 it back to the others for them so that they would have a 15 general agreement but, in any event, that's what we began 16 on, is this press release. 17 Q: And was there a joint press release 18 put out? 19 A: Yes, there was, yes. 20 Q: And now turning to August the 2nd, 21 can you tell us what you did with respect to Camp 22 Ipperwash or the Provincial Park on August the 2nd? 23 A: Well it looks like I'm speaking to -- 24 I was spoken to by Captain Martin regarding the 25 negotiations with the Stoney people. I've got, "for


1 Friday turnover," so I'm wondering if that's the day that 2 the official turnover of the Park -- the Ipperwash -- 3 Q: Of the Camp? 4 A: -- yes, went from -- and the 5 Department of Defence personnel actually left. I suspect 6 that's what that's alluding to. 7 Q: Well, we understand that actually 8 they did leave on the night of July 20th; that's the 9 evidence up-to-date. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: But there are certain things that had 12 to be done with respect to the maintenance of the Camp -- 13 A: Yes, and I have those. I think this 14 is more of an -- they may have left, but I think this is 15 alluding to more of an official departure because there 16 are specific instructions given to the First Nations 17 people with respect to the property that I can get -- I 18 can allude to in my notebook, if you like? 19 Q: Sure. I just would -- why don't you 20 just tell us what you did on -- what your notes talk 21 about on August the 2nd? 22 A: Sure. I met with the Captain who had 23 a meeting with the Elders, that's what my notebook entry 24 says, and they had agreed upon that Friday, August the -- 25 on the 4th that they were going to put up signs; No


1 Trespassing, Danger, Unexploded -- Unexploded Ordinance, 2 Keep Out; that Military personnel and Natives were to 3 erect those signs; that there were going to be five (5) 4 signs, three (3) four by eight (4x8) sheets posted on 5 fence line and two (2) four by eight (4x8) sheets posted 6 at the high water mark facing the lake at the north end 7 of the property; that the water and hydro were to be left 8 on indefinitely; that there was going to be a transition 9 team in on Friday morning at ten o'clock in the morning 10 to teach the Natives how to look after the water 11 treatment plant because there was a water treatment 12 plant, if memory serves me right I think it was in the 13 Park. 14 Q: There's a reservoir and water -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- and -- and a pumphouse in the 17 Park. 18 A: Right. And I think that that 19 supplied the water to CFB Ipperwash. So they were going 20 to receive instructions on that. 21 And then on the 11th of August, at ten 22 o'clock in the morning, everyone on the Base was to get a 23 range safety course regarding unexploded ordinance. 24 There was an agreement on an environmental 25 study and that the First Nations people were now in a ten


1 (10) day mourning period with respect to the fatal motor 2 vehicle accident that had taken place. 3 The Military was to continue to make 4 perimeter checks with commissionaires to start August the 5 4th, and the patrols were to go from dusk to dawn, and 6 check for cuts in the fence. 7 And then, I believe he was the Captain, 8 the Captain identified the Elders as -- would you prefer 9 me to go on, sir? 10 Q: Sure. 11 A: Abraham George, Glenn George, Rose 12 Manning, Janet Cloud, Pearl George, Joanne Jackson, 13 Brenda George, Nellie Rogers, Melva George, and Karen -- 14 I'll spell her last name -- K-E-W-O-G-E-S-H-I-G, I 15 believe is what I have in my notebook. 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: And all of this information was 18 passed on to Detective Sergeant Hudson, because Hudson 19 was now my replacement as the Area Crime Sergeant or 20 Detective Sergeant in Lambton County. 21 And -- and he had a longstanding working 22 relationship with First Nations people because he had 23 been at Forest Detachment as a uniformed sergeant for 24 quite a length of time. And I believe he was the -- the 25 liaison officer for Kettle Point. So he was my


1 counterpart -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- with respect to those duties. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: Hmm hmm. So I -- my notes say that I 6 spoke to P/C Pinnegor and he'd be the intelligence 7 officer based out of London. And I have here to take 8 surveillance photos, update Inspectors Carson and Linton 9 with regards to what I had become aware with. 10 And then I attended Pinery Provincial 11 Park and briefed the Number 6 District ERT Team as to 12 their patrol procedures and area patrol. Basically, this 13 is yet another new unit of ERT individuals who were now 14 at the Pinery, so I went there and -- and briefed them 15 accordingly as to what we were doing and what was the 16 plan with respect to the campers and Ipperwash Provincial 17 Park. 18 Q: They were replacing the first ERT 19 team that came in -- 20 A: Whomever that was, yeah. 21 Q: Then -- 22 A: Then I returned to the Detachment. 23 And then I was advised that -- that -- that a Military 24 police officer who had been assaulted on the -- during 25 the occupation of the built up area of CFB Ipperwash, the


1 person -- the person who was responsible for that had 2 apparently been a -- had been identified by a photo line- 3 up as Cleve Lincoln Jackson. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: Pardon me. And arrangements were 6 being made for an arrest warrant to be obtained in the 7 morning for assault police, mischief over, I think it was 8 five thousand (5,000), dangerous driving and breach of 9 probation. 10 And it would appear that that's what I 11 busied myself with until I went off duty at approximately 12 7:00 p.m. that evening. 13 Q: Okay. And then on August the 3rd 14 what did you do? 15 A: On August the 3rd I attended Forest 16 Detachment for a briefing, and Inspector Carson and 17 Linton were both there. 18 And I was informed at that time that Grand 19 Chief Ovide Mercredi may be coming to the area to mediate 20 the -- the situation as it related to CFB Ipperwash. 21 And I also received -- my notes say that I 22 received in -- information that missiles/rockets may be 23 on the Base, but I've got, in brackets, "(unlikely)". 24 And I -- I don't recall what report I 25 read, attending -- prior to my attendance here, but my


1 recollection is that the information -- they were 2 shoulder launch rockets, I think is -- is the 3 information. 4 But, obviously, like I say, my -- I've got 5 in my notes that that was unlikely. 6 Then I became aware that there was a bit 7 of an incident with a Global News television crew in that 8 they were videotaping a very private and sacred ceremony 9 that was being conducted on the CFB Ipperwash, connected 10 to the mourning and the death of the individuals in the 11 fatal motor vehicle accident. 12 And some First Nations people had gone 13 over there and -- and -- and retrieved the tape, and the 14 Global News didn't have a problem with that. 15 I mean, weren't -- they weren't making a 16 complaint, so that was the end of that. But I had to 17 deal with that -- I spent some time dealing with that 18 incident. 19 Q: And then I note at 2 -- 14:30 you had 20 a meeting with Glenn George at the Army Camp entrance? 21 A: Yes, I was -- I went there and Glenn 22 George was there with an individual by the name of Les 23 Jewel. And I advised them that we had a warrant for 24 Cleve Lincoln Alexander for those offences that I've 25 alluded to earlier.


1 And -- and I went there to see that, in 2 the spirit of -- of co-operation that we had spoken to 3 earlier, if -- if there -- there was some way that we 4 could arrange for Mr. Alexander to give himself up either 5 to me there, or at the Detachment, or at Court. 6 And they advised that they would have to 7 consult with the Elders and would give us an answer by 8 around noon the following day. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And there was also talk about the 11 mass -- Matheson Drive gate being busted by Natives, and 12 I think what happened was the lock was put on the gate on 13 Matheson Drive and, as I recall, a vehicle had gone 14 through and -- and -- and gone through the locked gate. 15 So Mr. George stated that he would speak 16 to the people on the property about our agreement with 17 respect to that gate being closed. 18 And I forget the exact times we were going 19 to close the gate but we had an agreement. I think it 20 was basically night time hours. 21 And then we -- I guess I told him that -- 22 I have a note here it says: 23 "Also told press we would have a 24 release." 25 Q: So that's -- you're referring to the


1 press release? 2 A: Yes. And before I left my notes say: 3 "George said that they rightfully own 4 Matheson Drive, Ipperwash Provincial 5 Park and the farmer's field south [but 6 that should read 'west'] of -- of the 7 Army Base." 8 And my notes -- my notes I say: 9 "I told him I was not prepared to 10 discuss this; that this was not the 11 purpose of the meeting. [and] I 12 returned to the Forest Detachment and 13 briefed Inspector Linton." 14 Q: And the -- you say that it -- 'south' 15 should read 'west'. Was Mr. George referring to the land 16 to the west of Army Camp Road on the north side of 17 Highway 21? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Then what did you do? You returned 20 to Forest? 21 A: Returned to Forest and we -- the 22 press release was prepared and it was -- 23 Q: It says you briefed Inspector Linton? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes?


1 A: Yes. And then the press release was 2 prepared and we released that joint press release and 3 then it appears that I spoke to reporters from the Sarnia 4 Observer newspaper and CBC Radio I suspect in relation to 5 the fatal motor vehicle accident. 6 And my notes say I had a dis -- discussion 7 with P/C Vince George and -- 8 Q: And do you have any independent 9 recollection -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- what that was about? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Yes. Was the note -- 14 A: Yes. And I -- I had -- it says here 15 in my notes say that I was -- I debrief with Staff 16 Sergeant Bouwman with regards to the meeting with Glenn 17 George and Les Jewel that I had. 18 Q: And did Staff Sergeant Bouwman attend 19 with you at the meeting? 20 A: I don't recall if he did or not. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And if I could take you back for a 25 moment to Exhibit 411 which is the log that I handed to


1 you. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And there's a note if you go to page 4 49 and August the 1st there's an entry: 5 "Linton meeting Base, kiosk lawyer John 6 McNair, Charlie [and I take it it's 7 Charlie Bouwman] George Speck, Mark 8 Wright." 9 What -- did you attend a meeting on August 10 the 1st with Inspector Linton? 11 This appears to be the meeting that you -- 12 or is the briefing -- 13 A: If I can -- if I can just have a -- 14 Q: -- a briefing to Inspector Linton? 15 A: I think this is Linton adding to the 16 -- the Ipperwash log that -- I think he's summarizing 17 what it is he knows about what's -- what has taken place, 18 because I think he's talking about a meeting that we had 19 and then -- then he moves on to -- talking about a 20 Military spokesperson, Captain Doug Smith and Captain 21 Landall (phonetic) and -- 22 Q: If I could take you back, there's an 23 entry: 24 "Said First Nations officers on OPP 25 should be more involved. We refused


1 this request." 2 A: Page 49 are you referring to? 3 Q: Page 49. It's the fifth line down. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yes, I read that. 8 Q: And that was the suggestion that we 9 see in Staff Sergeant Bouwman's note at page 45, or there 10 is a suggestion about the OPP officers. 11 Does this assist you with respect to what 12 was said about the First Nations officers on the OPP? 13 A: Only in so much that I recall that 14 there was a concern about using the OPP -- the OPP First 15 Nation officers -- my recollection is in particular, the 16 Georges -- because of the -- it would potentially put 17 them in an uncomfortable situation because the -- the 18 George family is a well known family on Kettle Point. 19 I don't know too much about this other 20 than I know that there were -- there were, for lack of a 21 better term, politics between the people of Kettle Point 22 as I understood it and the people of Stoney Point, that 23 being the people who were occupying the Army Base, with 24 regards to who had lawful ownership to CFB Ipperwash. 25 And so that -- that was if I may use the


1 term, kind of internal politics within the First Nations 2 population. And Kettle Point's a small place and we had 3 some First Nations OPP officers, the George officers 4 working for us, and my recollection is that that would 5 have put them in a very potentially uncomfortable 6 situation and -- and conflict position in dealing with 7 occurrences at Stoney Point. 8 Q: And was there any thought that you 9 were aware of at the time of bringing in other First 10 Nations officers from other areas if the George -- the 11 OPP officers from the George family you felt would be in 12 a difficult position? 13 A: Me personally? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Well, I know we -- with regards to 16 First Nations officers there was no suggestion that -- 17 well, there was no option about using First Nations 18 officers from Kettle Point because, as I recall, 19 Inspector Carson, the information that I got was that the 20 -- the Band Council or the Band Chief and/or Miles and 21 I'm not sure exactly who but my message that got back to 22 me was they weren't an option available for us to police 23 that area, CFB Ipperwash. 24 Q: And what about other First Nations 25 officers in the OPP from other areas?


1 A: That would have been beyond my scope 2 of -- wouldn't -- wouldn't have been something that I 3 would be making decisions on. Inspector Carson was the 4 officer in charge and frankly I don't know if we talked 5 about that or not. 6 Q: Okay. That's what I was really 7 getting at. 8 A: We -- we -- 9 Q: Was there a discussion about that? 10 A: I -- I don't know. 11 Q: Then August the 4th. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And it tells what you did on August 14 the 4th? 15 A: Once again I was -- I briefed 16 Inspector Linton on the day's activities and I prepared 17 for the -- I'm at Forest Detachment again and I'm 18 preparing again for the arrival of new campers and an ERT 19 team; basically, again, the changing of the guard as it - 20 - as it deals with the Ipperwash Provincial Park 21 assignment that we had initiated. 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: And new -- my notes indicate that new 24 campers arrived -- campers; by that I mean OPP officers. 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: And then there's an introduction of 2 detective -- the acting detective Staff Sergeant Lickman. 3 He was my counterpart in London at this time and he now 4 became involved because we were using -- the number of 5 officers we were using started to encroach upon the 6 detective constables that he had under -- detective 7 constables and sergeants that he had under his command, 8 so he became involved in that as well. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: So I basically showed him around and 11 introduced him to the people and explained to him the -- 12 the circumstances surrounding this operation. 13 And I have a note that I attended CFB 14 Ipperwash and spoke with Glenn George and Rose Manning. 15 I asked them if they were prepared to turn over the 16 subject of the warrant and they replied no. 17 And that's in relation to what we had 18 discussed earlier about the individual with a warrant for 19 his arrest for a number of incidents as they related to 20 the -- the MP in the Military Base. 21 Q: And then if I could take you to 22 Exhibit P-411, again, at page 59. 23 Do you recall if Staff Sergeant Bouwman 24 attended with you? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Page 59, sir? 4 Q: Yes, there's a note: 5 "14:10, Bouwman, at CFB. And met with 6 also present OPP Lickman, Speck, 7 Wright." 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Yes, I remember this. The -- the 12 triggering point here is the information about the 13 firefight -- firefighters because of the concern about if 14 there was a fire, how were we get the firemen onto the 15 Base, so -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- I recall that, yes. 18 Q: This was the same meeting that's in 19 your notes where you indicate you attended at CFB 20 Ipperwash and spoke with Glenn George and Rose Manning? 21 A: Yes, I believe it is. 22 Q: And so that Staff Sergeant Bouwman, 23 Lickman -- Sergeant Lickman, Constable Speck and yourself 24 were all -- all there? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And so there was a discussion about 2 the firefighters and what was the resolution, if 3 anything, with respect to the fire fighters coming on to 4 the Base? 5 A: That they could and that they could - 6 - there was a negotiation ensued with regards to the 7 number of OPP cars that would enter onto the property 8 with the firefighters. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And that came to a -- a successful 11 conclusion. 12 It was the policy that we'd send at least 13 two (2) units for the protection of everyone to make sure 14 that, you know, children wouldn't get close to the fire 15 and traffic control and that was agreed upon. 16 Q: Okay. And then I take it from your 17 notes you introduced Detective Sergeant or Staff Sergeant 18 Lickman to the people at the Provincial Park and at the 19 Pinery Park, back to your notes. 20 A: Right. And -- and if I may jump back 21 a bit because I -- I think this is relative -- relevant, 22 is that I made a note that it was my understanding that 23 Ovide Mercredi may be coming to resolve the situation or 24 mediate. And my recollection is, he was coming to mediate 25 that difficulty between the Stoney pea -- Stoney Point


1 people that were occupying CFB Ipperwash and the people 2 of Kettle Point First Nations territory in respect to the 3 property, that being Kettle Point -- I mean CFB 4 Ipperwash. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Well, I just -- that -- that's my -- 7 he was coming there to mediate that -- that situation; 8 that's my understanding. Not a police -- not an OPP -- 9 Q: You say it wasn't between the police 10 and -- but between the Stoney -- the occupiers of the 11 Army Camp and the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 12 A: Yes. Because the -- the Stoney Point 13 people were -- had until moving onto the -- the Base had 14 lived, as far as I know, and been part of Kettle Point 15 First Nations territory. 16 Q: Okay. And then on August the 7th you 17 have a note relating to Ipperwash and at the bottom of 18 the page there's a reference: 19 "Discussion with Carson [something] 20 intelligence." 21 A: Reference. That's "reference 22 intelligence". 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And unfortunately that's all there is 25 and I don't have any recollection of what that


1 intelligence might be. 2 Q: And then -- 3 A: And then the -- the decision is that 4 the campers will continue to -- that -- that operation's 5 going to continue until September the 10th because -- and 6 I've got it in my note. Like here, it says, info was 7 that Indians to take the Park right after Labour Day 8 weekend. 9 So at this point -- at this point it would 10 appear that we were of -- we had information that would 11 lead us to believe that the takeover of Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park was going to take place after Labour Day 13 weekend. 14 Q: And did you have any understanding in 15 the early August 1995 as to when Ipperwash Provincial 16 Park normally closed for the season to campers? 17 A: Yeah. Labour Day weekend. 18 Q: And you -- can you recall today who 19 the source of the information was that there might be an 20 occupation of the Provincial Park after Labour Day 21 weekend? 22 A: No. I can't remember who that was 23 but I recall being, you know, I recall knowing that 24 information and -- and that it being fairly well known to 25 those of us who were dealing with that problem, that in


1 all likelihood that's the -- the occupation of the Park 2 would take place immediately after the Park closed for 3 the season. And that in fact was what happened. 4 Q: Okay. And then on page 63 there's a 5 note still on August the 7th at Ipperwash Provincial Park 6 and -- 7 A: That's -- I picked up two (2) 8 officers and returned them to Forest Detachment. So I've 9 gone down to the Provincial Park and for whatever reason 10 we've rotated a female officer and a male officer from 11 there. 12 And then it says here, logistics regarding 13 new campers and ERT team arriving. So -- and once again, 14 we're changing people around. The old -- the new campers 15 and ERT teams are moving into the area. 16 Q: And then the information from the 17 campers was put into the CFB Intelligence log which was 18 marked as Exhibit P-413 and there's an extract from that 19 in your book at Tab 12. 20 Is that am I -- my understanding correct 21 that the information to campers was put into this 22 document, Exhibit P-413? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Okay. Then on August the 8th you had 25 a briefing of unit commanders -- commanders, can you tell


1 us about that? 2 "Attend weekly briefing of unit 3 commanders. Crime unit --" 4 A: Yes. What -- what -- 5 Q: "-- meeting. Updating officers 6 regarding CFB Ipperwash and the Ipperwash 7 Provincial 8 Park?" 9 Just -- was this two (2) meetings or one 10 (1) meeting? 11 A: This was two (2) meetings. 12 Q: Okay. Tell us about the meeting -- 13 A: Well -- 14 Q: -- that dealt with the Park and the 15 Army Camp. 16 A: Right. Every Monday, and I -- I 17 don't have a calendar with me but I suspect the 8th of 18 August was a Monday, we would meet at Chatham District 19 Headquarters and the unit commanders would meet. 20 So there would be Inspector Linton, who 21 would be in charge of Chatham, and the -- the officer in 22 charge of the Ident Unit, and the officer in charge of 23 the Training Unit, and the officer in charge of the 24 Traffic Unit, and I would represent Criminal 25 Investigations.


1 So all those different departments that 2 make a district headquarters run, would meet on a Monday 3 morning and we'd go over, you know, the previous week and 4 the weekend's noteworthy activities. So this is just 5 indicative of that weekly meeting. 6 And I would have, as a matter of course, 7 just briefed the people that were attending -- the unit 8 heads that were attending that meeting with respect to 9 what I knew about the state of affairs at -- in and 10 around that area so that they would be aware, because we 11 were all conducting -- we were all doing policing and 12 that's where we exchanged information amongst our -- our 13 -- each other so that we -- everybody there who had a 14 management position had a feel for all the policing 15 issues within our area of responsibility. 16 Q: Okay. And there's a note at the top 17 of page 64: 18 "Ipperwash Provincial Park then [dash] 19 - discussion with Inspector Linton." 20 And what does that refer to? 21 A: Well, you'll see that -- on page 63, 22 that I've got,"Topics Covered," and that's in regards to 23 what I discussed at the meeting. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: So the first meeting is the Unit


1 Commander's meeting and I updated them on CFB Ipperwash 2 and Ipperwash Provincial Park. And then, "Topics 3 Covered," are issues other than Ipper -- crime related 4 matters other than Ipperwash Provincial Park. 5 And so I've just blacked out or redacted 6 those parts of the meeting that are not relevant to 7 Ipperwash. And then I -- I have here, "discussion with 8 Inspector Linton," and probably that would have been 9 better to be redacted as well because I'm -- I'm 10 discussing with him the following items that are 11 unrelated to the Ipperwash incident. 12 Q: And do you recall, today, what you 13 told the individuals at this meeting on August the 8th 14 what was happening -- what was happening at CFB Ipperwash 15 and the Provincial Park? 16 A: Exactly? No. 17 Q: And now, there's a note August the 18 9th and the first item is: 19 "Briefing [it looks like] from 20 Inspector Carson?" 21 A: Yes, I would agree, "Briefing from 22 Inspector Carson." I think that -- what that's about, if 23 you continue to read, is he's telling me that I'm going 24 to meet with a lady by the name of Sue Lloyd and, 25 frankly, I -- I'm embarrassed to say I don't know what


1 rank she was or even if she was a police officer or 2 civilian. I think she was a police officer. 3 And -- and she was from Strategic 4 Intelligence General Headquarters, so my task was to 5 instruct her, was to brief her on the points that are in 6 my -- with respect to CFB Ipperwash and the Kettle Point 7 Reserve conflict. 8 And what I mean by that is the -- what I 9 attempted to allude to earlier here, that friction or 10 what I understood to be friction, let's put it that way, 11 what I understood to be friction between the people of 12 Kettle Point First Nations and the Stoney Point people 13 who had occupied CFB Ipperwash. 14 Q: Okay. And then the note goes on: 15 "Adding info received from Detective 16 Speck via Captain Smith." 17 And does that relate to your discussion 18 with Sue Lloyd at strategic intelligence? 19 A: No, I -- I don't believe so. I think 20 what's happening now is that I -- I'm now aware of that 21 there is -- we've come -- we have information that 22 apparent -- that approximately two hundred (200) youths 23 might be attending CFB Ipperwash for a youth conference 24 via Oneida Reserve for a breakfast meeting. 25 Q: Okay. And if I could just stop you


1 there for a second. To go back, what was the purpose of 2 meeting with Sue Lloyd from strategic intelligence? 3 A: Well, as I recall she -- I -- I was 4 reporting to her to give her an understanding of what was 5 taking place on -- on and around Ipperwash, Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park, Ipperwash -- Canadian Forces Base 7 Ipperwash. 8 So that -- I suspect she was going to 9 prepare a document to take back to general headquarters, 10 specifically the intelligence unit, so they would have 11 that information and be alive, I guess, to what was going 12 on in our part of the province. 13 Q: Do you know what she did? 14 A: No idea. 15 Q: Okay. And then on the next pages 66 16 -- on 66, simply it looks like there's planning with 17 respect to the two hundred (200) youths coming to the CFB 18 Ipperwash? 19 A: Yeah, the -- the -- there's planning, 20 contingency planning being done for the -- the potential 21 that this might occur. 22 I don't even recall if it did or not. 23 Q: Okay. You don't know if -- you can't 24 recall if it did or not? 25 A: No.


1 Q: And then there's a note August the 2 10th, 1995, Chatham District Headquarters: 3 "Prepare for Ipperwash on Friday." 4 A: Friday, yes. 5 Q: And what's that refer to? 6 A: Is -- is -- I wonder if that relates 7 to the two hundred (200) youths attending -- attending 8 Ipperwash. 9 Q: Perhaps -- 10 A: I can only -- I can only guess that 11 that's what that is. 12 Q: And then August the 11th, 1995 13 there's a reference to you attending in Forest Detachment 14 and can you tell us what that's about? 15 A: That's about -- it's eight o'clock in 16 the morning and I am moving -- once again, we're changing 17 the campers around and it looks like we've got some new 18 ERT members. And it says here that: 19 "Attend campers location and watch the 20 movement of Natives." 21 So I must have been alerted by the -- the 22 campers, the officers, that there was some sort of 23 activity in and around that area, so I went down to look 24 myself. 25 But, obviously, it was not much -- not


1 very noteworthy because there's nothing else in my 2 notebook. 3 Q: Then your next entry with respect to 4 Ipperwash is August the 29th and I note that your shown 5 as to having been off duty on vacation, August 21st to 6 27th and August 19th and 20th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, do -- were you aware, back in 9 August of 1995, that John Carson, Tony Parkin, Dale 10 Linton and Wade Lacroix met with Marcel Beaubien in 11 Petrolia on August the 11th, 1995? 12 A: No. I don't have any recollection of 13 that. 14 Q: And you have no recollection of being 15 told that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And would it have been normal for you 18 to have been told of such a meeting? 19 A: No, I can't -- no. 20 Q: It would have been -- 21 A: That was -- 22 Q: That would have been out of the 23 ordinary? 24 A: Yeah, I don't know why they would -- 25 it had nothing to do with me, obviously, from the rank


1 that was going to that meeting, for whatever reason that 2 was. 3 Q: Okay. Then moving down to August, 4 the end of August, 1995. 5 On August 29th, 1995 there's an entry, 6 page 68 of your notes, and can you tell us, generally, 7 what you did with respect to what this refers to and what 8 work you did? 9 A: Okay. This is the beginning of some 10 contingency planning, what eventually turns into 11 Operation Maple. And this is -- I attended at London 12 with Korosec who would have been the ERT team leader and 13 P/C Dean, and I believe that's Acting Sergeant Ken Dean 14 and he would have been the TRU team representative. 15 And we met and we -- we began to discuss a 16 working model to deal with the eventuality that Ipperwash 17 Provincial Park might be occupied. And I had recently 18 returned from Ottawa from the Canadian Police College 19 where I'd taken a -- a course that was called, Major Case 20 Management, which was a relatively new way of conducting 21 criminal investigations or complex investigations. 22 And so I brought that model with me to 23 this meeting in an effort to try and organize ourselves 24 so that we could deal with this situation. 25 Q: And Inspector Carson, I think you


1 said, was at the meeting? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yes? Yes? 4 A: Yes, sir, he was. 5 Q: Okay. And go on. What else 6 happened? 7 A: So what we did was we -- I -- I gave 8 those people there an idea of what Major Case Management 9 was and basically how it worked. 10 And then we identified a chain of -- I 11 think my notes say we identified a chain of command and 12 we identified unit commanders within that model. And we 13 prepared a strategy with respect to the police response 14 in the event that the Park was taken over. 15 So the -- the idea here was that in the 16 event we had an occurrence involving a large number of 17 people. And by that I mean a large response by OPP 18 officers, involving a num -- a number of different skill 19 sets, that we had to have a -- a plan in place where that 20 everybody understood who was in charge of each particular 21 venue or operat -- or area of concern and how the chain 22 of command works. 23 So that the attempt here was -- or the 24 intent here was so that information flowed properly both 25 up and down the chain of command in -- in an occurrence


1 involving a large number of people -- officers. 2 So that was the -- that was the intent of 3 this plan. And so we talked about attempting to identify 4 and I -- I prefer to use the term 'unit heads' to define 5 the different avenues that need to be dealt with. 6 And so we sat down and we put our minds to 7 who it was would be best suited to run those different 8 sections. And we had -- we were fortunate that -- the 9 Chatham area was referred to as One District and the 10 London area was referred to as Two District. 11 And I started as a constable in Two 12 District and got promoted and went to One District and 13 then Inspector Carson started off in -- well was in One 14 District and got promoted and went to Two District. 15 So there was a nice crossover vis-a-vis 16 knowing the people in a significantly -- significant part 17 of that geographical area and -- and who were the people 18 best suited for those jobs. 19 So, you know, we went about identifying 20 who were the best people suited for those particular 21 assignments, and that's what we did. 22 Q: And were the -- did you discuss 23 different scenarios of the potential takeover of the 24 Park, do you recall? 25 A: It says we prepared a strategy with


1 respect to police response as a result of a takeover of 2 the Provincial Park. So I would say that we did. 3 Q: And do you have any independent 4 recollection of that? 5 A: No, I don't. I know what Operation 6 Maple ended up being in the end and -- but I can't say it 7 -- it germinated from here or it changed from the time it 8 started here until it hit paper. 9 Q: And then there's a note: 10 "10-8 to Ipperwash Provincial Park with 11 Inspector Carson." 12 And that means travelling to Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park? 14 A: Yes, sir, it does. 15 Q: And what did you do when you got 16 there? 17 A: Well, I remember the day. We walked 18 around the Park. There was very few people there, if 19 any, because it was the end of the summer. And we looked 20 around at the -- at the grounds and there was -- there 21 was a discussion about where cameras and/or probes might 22 be installed in the different buildings by Technical 23 Support Branch, which is the acronym in my notes, TSB. 24 They would be the -- the installers of that type of 25 equipment.


1 Q: And it says: 2 "Arrangements made for TSB to install 3 cameras and probes." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Was that made that afternoon? 6 A: I didn't -- I -- I can tell you, I 7 didn't have anything to do with that part of the plan. I 8 know we walked around and there was talk about -- and I - 9 - I seem to recall, you know, talks about where the 10 cameras and/or probes were going to go, but that was 11 outside my realm of responsibility. 12 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 13 "MNR to remove barriers and..." 14 A: Picnic tables. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: And the idea of that was in the event 17 that Ipperwash Provincial Park was occupied, that we 18 wanted to -- we wanted to remove anything that could 19 possibly lead -- possibly be used as a barricade or a 20 barrier. So that was the idea here was that we wanted 21 MNR to move any, to my recollection anyways, any 22 barriers, picnic tables, we wanted all that removed so 23 none of that was in the Park. 24 Q: And do you recall where the barriers 25 were?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And by -- 3 A: Well -- well, I remember there were 4 some along the -- where Matheson Drive ends, there's a 5 bit of beach there and then before the water, before the 6 lake, and so there were barriers, concrete barriers there 7 that would stop people from driving along the beach from 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park, I guess, into the Ipperwash 9 Base. But, I mean, I'm sure that the point here was not 10 to remove those barriers, I'm -- I'm positive we wanted 11 them left. 12 And I know there were other barriers 13 around but I just can't remember exactly where they were. 14 Q: And if -- perhaps if I could ask you 15 to turn to Tab 15 of the document book in front of you, 16 this is a copy of a map -- excuse me -- it's Exhibit P- 17 422 marked by John Carson when he testified and it's 18 actually a copy of Exhibit P-40. 19 And the number "2", you will that on the 20 east side of the Provincial Park. Do you see that? 21 A: Yes. Yes, I do, sir. 22 Q: And that's -- Inspector Carson and 23 others have testified that there was an entrance into the 24 Park at that item number 2 off Matheson Drive? 25 A: I recall that, yes.


1 Q: And it's my understanding there were 2 barriers at that fence, that entrance from Matheson 3 Drive? 4 A: Yes, I recall that. 5 Q: Does that assist you? 6 A: Yes, yes. I don't know if those are 7 the ones we're alluding to that we -- we wanted removed, 8 but I certainly remember there were barriers there. 9 Q: And we've heard evidence that they 10 were removed by MNR and would you -- if they were 11 removed, does that assist you with whether or not they 12 were among the ones that you wanted removed? 13 A: Well I suspect Inspector Carson had 14 those removed. Those would absolutely be the ones that 15 we wanted removed. 16 Q: And were there any others that you 17 can recall; barriers? And by the barriers here, we're 18 talking about concrete barriers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And -- 21 A: And your ans -- my answer to your 22 first question was no, I don't recall -- 23 Q: Recall that -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: And then item number 3, replacements


1 for PC Martin, and that's just dealing with Constable -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- Martin as a camper? 4 A: Yes. He -- he -- yes. He needed to 5 be removed for other duties. 6 Q: And then the next item. 7 A: Re -- return of night vision 8 binoculars to Grand Bend. We had a set of Forest Detach 9 -- Forest/Grand Bend Detachment had a set of night vision 10 binoculars that had been donated by some service group 11 and we were using them down with the campers. 12 So I think that's just alluding to me 13 returning it back to the Detachment. 14 Q: Okay. And then there was -- there's 15 a note: 16 "To Forest Detachment to make 17 arrangements with Inspector Carson for 18 meeting on Friday. 19 A: Yes, I think that's what it says, 20 meeting on Friday. 21 Q: And the meeting on Friday, I believe 22 Friday was September the 1st. 23 A: Let -- is -- I'm in your hands, it's 24 Friday September the 1st. 25 Q: You can take it that it was.


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: Then perhaps this would be a 3 opportune time for the afternoon break? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 I thought we'd go to about a quarter to, but -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, that's fine. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if this 8 is a good time -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll deal with -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we'll 11 stop now. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no, we can carry 13 on. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until 15 quarter to. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Now, August the 30 there was a -- 19 another meeting that -- or you did some work with respect 20 to Ipperwash. Can you tell us what you did, generally? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Well my notes say that arrangements 25 throughout day to prepare for Ipperwash briefing, conduct


1 a -- I think what is happening here is I've called these 2 individuals who end up being -- the majority of them end 3 up being either unit heads or they need to attend at the 4 meeting for the following Friday. 5 Some of them turn out to be unit heads and 6 some of them, for instance, Staff Sergeant Bouwman wasn't 7 a unit head but he was -- he was a staff sergeant in that 8 area and -- and it would be reasonable for him to be 9 there. And Detective Speck was not a unit head but he 10 had been a longstanding police officer in the Forest area 11 for a great number of years and would be able to provide 12 information for that meeting. 13 Karen Shaw was the steno, or scribe. 14 Inspector O'Hagan was now, he was, as you recall, 15 Detective Staff Sergeant O'Hagan who was now acting 16 Inspector O'Hagan, so he was attending as representative 17 of what used to be number 1 district headquarters, 18 Chatham. 19 And then the rest of these individuals are 20 people who became involved in Project Maple. 21 Q: Okay. And at Tab 13 of the book in 22 front of you, the last book in front of you there's a 23 copy of Exhibit P-874, Inquiry document 1010263. 24 And this is an e-mail that is from -- 25 dated August the 29th, I believe, from Rob Burnett to Les


1 Kobayashi and it refers to a request by Sergeant Martin - 2 - Mark Wright for the number of buildings located in 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park and whether these buildings 4 have electrical and telephone service. 5 Do you recall making that request? 6 A: No. I don't take issue with the fact 7 that I did, I just don't recall it. 8 Q: And with respect to -- but you don't 9 take issue that you may have made that -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- makes some sense. 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, on September 1st you had another 14 planning meeting? 15 A: September 1st, yes, sir. 16 "London with everybody whose going to 17 be involved in Operation Maple, if, in 18 fact, it takes place." 19 Q: Yes. And then there your notes 20 indicate that: 21 "Briefing included history of events 22 and duties assigned. Comprehensive 23 meeting took place throughout day 24 regarding duties and assignment and how 25 plan would [it says] and fold [but


1 unfold]." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the -- at Tab 14 there is a copy 4 of Exhibit P-421. It's Inquiry Document 3000574. 5 A: Where -- where is that, sir? 6 Q: At Tab 14 of the black book in front 7 of you. 8 A: Correct, got it. 9 Q: And do you have any independent 10 recollection of the meeting bef -- on the Friday? 11 A: With all these individuals? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Vaguely, sure. 14 Q: Tell us what you remember. 15 A: I remember that we got everybody 16 together in regards to who was going to be involved in -- 17 in the potential incident and the planning. And we went 18 over what it was we expected from them and that they were 19 to pick the people that they felt were appropriate, that 20 could assist them with that, in addition to potential 21 replacements depending on who -- what their job was. 22 An outline of -- there was a general 23 outline of the history of what had taken place and that 24 we -- the potential -- and the reason for them being 25 there, i.e., the potential takeover of Ipperwash


1 Provincial Park by those individuals who were on CFB 2 Ipperwash. And it also included a discussion about what 3 the plan would be in the event such an -- such an 4 incident took place, so -- 5 Q: And what is your recollection today 6 as to what the plan would be that was discussed on 7 September the 1st? 8 What was the plan? 9 A: Well, the -- the plan is -- I don't 10 know how you would like me to answer this. 11 Q: Describe what you remember was -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- you being discussed -- 14 A: Without -- without benefit of looking 15 at the plan, is that what you're talking about? Because 16 obviously what we talked about was incorporated in the 17 plan, so, I mean, I'm not trying to be difficult, I don't 18 know if you want to do this without -- 19 Q: No but what do you remember of the 20 plan? We could go and look at Project -- 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: -- Maple that -- just -- you might 23 just tell us generally what you remember about the plan? 24 A: Okay, sure. Well, the idea was that 25 in the event that the -- the people were going to occupy


1 the Park, we were going to populate the Park with 2 officers so that we could cohabitate with the occupiers, 3 and that we were going to put officers around the 4 perimeter of the Park to try to discourage people from 5 coming in -- from coming into the Park. 6 And then it was going to be basically an 7 attempt to begin negotiations with them with respect to 8 the occupation of that Park. And I believe that, without 9 going into the -- the plan, but I believe there was a 10 discussion about that -- an injunction that if -- if in 11 fact this took place that -- that the landlord which 12 would be, I guess, MNR as I understood it, would have to 13 seek to get an injunction and then based on that 14 injunction which was a court order then we would act 15 under the authority of that court order. 16 Now, I recall there was absolutely no 17 doubt in my mind in any way that that Park belonged to 18 the Province of Ontario. In my mind that's where I stood 19 and because Inspector Carson had told me that he had 20 caused that to be researched and that there was clear 21 title of the Park to the Province and that -- to the 22 Province generally, and that MNR, the Ministry of Natural 23 Resources, was maintaining that property on behalf of the 24 Province of Ontario. 25 So that was clearly my understanding and


1 I'm sure it was the understanding of everybody else that 2 that was the, in fact, the -- the state with respect to 3 the -- the ownership of that property. 4 Q: Okay. And -- 5 A: You can only say what was in your 6 mind not everybody else's. You said it was in everybody 7 else's mind. 8 THE WITNESS: Pardon me. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 10 sure about that. 11 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 I can see Mr. Falconer rising. I'm saving him the 14 trouble. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, he can... 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 17 good time -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or do you 20 want to finish? Do you want to finish this -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no, that's fine. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 23 good time to take a break? 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a


1 break now. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for fifteen (15) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 2:47 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 3:08 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 11 Commissioner. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Inspector Wright, before we continue 15 there's -- there's a matter I'd like to just go back to. 16 In front of you on the left-hand corner of 17 the table is a copy of Inquiry Document 2001695 and 18 2001696. And they're two (2) press releases. 19 The first press release is entitle -- it 20 has at the top "Public Safety August 1, 1995" and there's 21 a note -- a handwritten not: 22 "Gave Glenn George the original of this 23 to copy at 20:55, 1 August '95 at main 24 entrance to CFB [and it looks like] K. 25 Bouwman Staff Sergeant."


1 And do you recognize this document, it's 2 2001695? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: And it's got at the top, "Proposed 5 media release"? 6 A: Yes, sir, it does. 7 Q: And was this the media release that 8 the Ontario Provincial Police proposed to Mr. George? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 11 next exhibit. And that's -- 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1096, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 96. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1096: Document Number 2001695. OPP 16 Proposed Median Release re. 17 Public Safety, August 01/'95. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And that's with respect to the motor 21 vehicle accident at the end of Matheson Drive and Army 22 Camp Road on the evening of July 31st? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then the next document is 2001696 25 and it's the proposed press release, proposed by Mr.


1 George, is that correct? 2 A: No, I think this is -- this would be 3 the final release. 4 Q: The final release? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I note that the principle change 7 is to insert the name Aazhoodenaang Enjibaajig and then 8 in brackets (Stoney Point people) in place of Stoney 9 Point First Nation people in the copy of P-1096. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And so 201696 (sic) is the press 12 release that was actually issued? 13 A: That's my understanding. 14 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 15 exhibit. It would be P-1097. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1097: Document Number 2001696. 19 Final Press Release re. 20 Public Safety August 02/'95. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Thank you. And if we could go back 24 to Exhibit P-421. These are were, we're told by 25 Inspector Carson or then-Inspector Carson, were notes of


1 the meeting of September the 1st and it's noted that the 2 objective was to contain and negotiate the peaceful 3 resolution. 4 Was that your understanding of the 5 objective of the plan? 6 A: Absolutely. 7 Q: And there's a note, the second -- the 8 third large paragraph on page 1: 9 "If the Park is taken over possibly 10 approximately twenty (20) people will 11 enter the Park and not willing to 12 leave. MNR will be responsible to tell 13 these individuals to leave because 14 they're trespassing. 15 If they do not, then OPP will be 16 advised and we will attend to advise 17 them they are trespassing. 18 If they do not MNR will issue a court 19 injunction to have these people 20 removed. This may take some time to 21 obtain. 22 The problem is to keep the people out 23 rather than trying to get them out." 24 And was that one of the basis of your 25 planning?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then the next paragraph: 3 "Try and the manage area to keep the 4 people out." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Then on page 2, there's a reference 7 about halfway down the page -- at the top of the page 8 actually, there's a note: 9 "There's potential for violence." 10 And then a note with respect to TRU and 11 then: 12 "Mark is John's assistant. He has the 13 knowledge of the history of this entire 14 investigation." 15 And that Mark is you, is it not? 16 A: It is. 17 Q: And you were the Assistant to 18 Inspector Carson throughout Project Maple? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Or at least on September 4th, 5th and 21 6th? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then there's a note on page 2 -- 24 excuse me. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: On page 3 there's a note about six 4 (6) paragraphs down: 5 "Even if this is peaceful, the best we 6 could hope for is to see a Court Order 7 twenty-four (24) hours later. While 8 waiting for the injunction, the ERT and 9 TRU will be there, working operational. 10 11 The reason for containing is we are 12 trying to stop any additional people 13 coming into the Park. 14 We cannot stop anyone from going right 15 up to the fence at Ipperwash Provincial 16 Park, this includes the press, when 17 there is no injunction." 18 And do you recall, today, what discussion 19 there was with respect to the timing for an injunction, 20 Inspector Wright? 21 How long it would take to get an 22 injunction? 23 A: My recollection is that it would take 24 at least twenty-four (24) hours. 25 Q: And where did that information come


1 from, do you recall today? 2 A: Where did that informat -- that -- 3 Q: Where did you get that understanding? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I may have read it in a scribe note. 8 I think -- 9 Q: This is September the 1st. 10 A: Right, right. You're asking at this 11 point in time -- 12 Q: As of September the 1st. 13 A: I see. No, I -- I didn't know how 14 long that would take. 15 Q: And did you recall someone 16 mentioning -- 17 A: Well, sorry, sir, pardon me. It 18 says: 19 "Even if this is peaceful, the best we 20 could hope for is to see a Court Order 21 twenty-four (24) hours later." 22 So, I -- I -- 23 Q: No, no, I appreciate that, but I'm -- 24 do you re -- the question was, and I didn't make my 25 question clear, Do you recall the discussion about


1 twenty-four (24) hours at the meeting? 2 A: Do I recall that specifically? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: No. I don't recall that 5 specifically. 6 Q: Do you recall anything about a 7 discussion relating to an injunction, today? 8 A: At that point? 9 Q: At that point. At this meeting on 10 September the 1st. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: My -- my recollection is, is that 15 when I left there I was of -- of the understanding that - 16 - I guess the sort answer is yes. 17 I was of the understanding that, assuming 18 that the people entered the Park, that we were going to - 19 - we were going to need that injunction or a Court Order 20 or -- I think it was referred to as a Court Order there. 21 I don't know if he used the word 22 injunction, if Inspector Carson used it at the time, but 23 I was of the understanding that we weren't going to 24 unilaterally move on the people in the Park if they moved 25 into the Park.


1 Q: And -- but -- so today you can't 2 remember anything else about the injunction on this -- 3 the discussion about the injunction on September 1st? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Then the -- what part on -- on 6 September the 1st, what part did you play in terms of the 7 meetings? 8 I understand from Inspector Carson that 9 people broke up into different groups and came up with 10 what they're -- each team was supposed to be doing, the 11 plan for the team, and is that your understanding? 12 A: Yes, that is. 13 Q: And what -- what did you do? Where 14 were you? 15 A: I don't recall specifically where I 16 was. I know we -- there was a briefing that took place; 17 Inspector Carson explained to them what was going on. 18 I believe I -- I explained to them again, 19 and there's -- it's alluded in here about -- that the 20 major case management model was an RCMP model. And I 21 believe I explained the importance of reporting, 22 following the -- the chain of command up and down the -- 23 the chart that we provided so that they could see where 24 everybody fit within the -- the plan, as it were. 25 Q: And is the chart that you're


1 referring to, if you could turn to Tab 16, this is a copy 2 of Exhibit P-424 entitled, Project Maple, September 1995. 3 And is the chart that you refer to the 4 chart that appears at the third page? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And on September the 1st was that 7 chart provided to the party or to the -- the attendees? 8 A: I think the -- the first chart they 9 got was without the intelligence box and -- 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: -- Detective Sergeant Don Bell, that 12 was an error of omission on my part. 13 Q: So did you prepare this chart 14 initially? 15 A: That's my recollection, yes. 16 Q: And initially -- and you used 17 software -- some sort of software program to create it? 18 A: I don't know if I actually hit the 19 stroke keys to do this but this is -- 20 Q: You had some -- 21 A: -- I am the author of this -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- chart. 24 Q: And the chart that was used on 25 September 1st did not have "Intelligence"?


1 A: I don't think right -- no, I don't 2 think it did. 3 Q: And "Intelligence," was added 4 afterwards by you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there was -- Detective Sergeant 7 Don Bell though was at the meeting on September the 1st? 8 A: Yes, that's my recollection. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- the chain of command that you 12 refer to using the chart that appears as part of Exhibit 13 P-424, how -- could you tell the Commissioner how the 14 reporting was supposed to work? 15 A: Okay. Well, the officer in charge 16 would have been Chief Superintendent Coles because of his 17 overall command of the region at the time and that the -- 18 the CIT Commander or the -- the individual with specific 19 control over the -- this particular incident or the on 20 scene commander, Incident Commander, would have -- would 21 be John Carson. 22 And he would have a direct reporting 23 relationship up to the Chief and that would move up and 24 down that avenue between the Incident Commander and Chief 25 Superintendent Coles.


1 Q: And Chief -- and -- and 2 Superintendent Parkin was part of that as well? 3 A: Yes, but you'd have to appreciate 4 that we were still relatively new within a regional 5 dynamics and for instance if I were doing this today the 6 person now doing the job of retired Chief Superintendent 7 Parkin would be -- there would be another box there. It 8 would go from Carson to Parkin to Coles. 9 And in any event the -- Carson -- the -- 10 the communications supervisor and that has more to do 11 with the -- that's actually -- I never really had a 12 really good look at this but I would say that's an error. 13 That should be Media Liaison and Communications 14 Supervisor should be down where Media Liaison is. 15 Q: Yes, and what was the role of 16 Communications Supervisor? 17 A: Well, that would have been the -- the 18 individuals running the COM's in the communications 19 during the incident. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: But the idea here is, and although 22 it's not on this -- it's incorrect on this diagram, it 23 did in fact happen as that. What you want with Media 24 Liaison is -- and -- and sergeant -- I think he was -- he 25 was a sergeant at the time -- Babbitt, you really want


1 the Media Relations Officer to be speaking direct to the 2 -- to have that direct feed to the Commander because you 3 don't want the -- necessarily the Media Relations Officer 4 reporting up through the line to what are basically 5 operations people because there may be a need -- there -- 6 there may be a need to provide information to the media 7 that -- to the Media Relations Officer -- that isn't 8 completely encompassing what's going on there -- on at 9 the time for -- for operational purposes, because you 10 don't want to put your press person in the position where 11 they're going to lie or tell an inaccuracy to the press. 12 So you put them in a position where you 13 tell them what you feel they need to know and then they 14 can speak to the press and give them the information that 15 they have. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: So -- so it -- it -- it makes -- 18 provides for that mistake not to happen, to put a press 19 officer in an embarrassing situation where they may -- 20 they may be possessed of information and may be asked and 21 may find themselves in a difficult situation with respect 22 to whether or not to answer or not. 23 Q: Okay. And so that the ERT team, the 24 -- for example, on -- under emergency services there is 25 the ERT and the TRU --


1 A: Right. 2 Q: The ERT district 1, district 2, 3 district 3, district 6 ERT teams; was the idea they would 4 report up through Sergeant Korosec? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And Sergeant Korosec would report to 7 who? 8 A: Well, he would have a -- a -- a 9 lateral reporting relationship to the -- to the TRU team 10 officer because of their -- potentially their close 11 roles. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: But -- but those officers would 14 report up to the -- to Inspector Carson, up that line and 15 either to me or to Inspector Carson. 16 Q: So that if they reported to you, you 17 then report it up to Inspector Carson. 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And if they reported to Inspector 20 Carson, how did you find out what they were doing? 21 A: Well, normally what would happen, 22 they would -- they would report to me and Inspector 23 Carson, the idea -- 24 Q: At the same time? 25 A: Yeah. And -- and the idea here was


1 that that information that came to me -- because you 2 don't want a whole lot of people coming to the Incident 3 Commander because he's trying to manage the overall 4 scene. 5 So the idea here is that, you know, that 6 in the normal course of running that incident that 7 there's going to be housekeeping information and -- and 8 other information that's going to come up that can be 9 vetted through me, and then I can, when -- when time 10 permits -- you know, it's information that the Inspector 11 would need, but perhaps not at that particular moment 12 because he was busy with something else, so that's a way 13 of -- of trying to control the -- the speed of non- 14 critical information to the Incident Commander. 15 I mean, if it was something of a critical 16 nature, obviously it would go direct to the Incident 17 Commander. 18 Q: And then there's, on page 2, again of 19 back -- if we could go back to Tab 14, Exhibit P-421. 20 There's a note: 21 "If you're not available, then, when 22 this occurrence occurs, it is your 23 responsibility -- at any time, as long 24 as this plan is on, it's your 25 responsibility to find a replacement."


1 This is an RCMP model. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And is the RCMP model the -- the 4 replacement idea. I'm just trying to understand -- 5 A: No. No, the RCMP model is -- is 6 the -- 7 Q: Case management. 8 A: -- the case management module. 9 Q: Now, then: 10 "All the ERT teams fall under Korosec, 11 the team leaders can communicate with 12 each other, but Wright and Carson have 13 to know what is going on. 14 All personnel under the team leader 15 should be advising their team leaders 16 with any information or suggestions." 17 So would team leaders report directly to 18 you and John Carson? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: What you wanted to avoid is, perhaps, 22 if I can give an example, is you have an -- you have an 23 ERT officer at a checkpoint and he's coming off duty and 24 he feels that he may have some information that's 25 pertinent and he -- he -- he goes right to the Inspector


1 looking after the Incident Commander. 2 Well, that necessarily means that his ERT 3 leader doesn't know what's going on, which is 4 problematic, and then -- and the Incident Commander is 5 being inundated with all sorts of people coming to the 6 door, as it were, because they had information that they 7 -- they feel is relevant. 8 So, you know, you're in a group, that's 9 the group you belong to, you know -- you know who you 10 report to, if you have anything that you feel that is 11 relevant you report that to that person and that person 12 moves along the chain so that the information comes 13 quickly and in a -- in a uniform and orderly manner. 14 Q: Okay. Then on -- can I ask you to 15 turn to the fifth page. 16 A: Fifth page. 17 Q: And... 18 A: The page marked 5, sir? 19 Q: Mine doesn't have page numbers on it. 20 A: "Administration Support," or -- 21 Q: No, no. This is back -- I'm sorry, 22 I'm taking you back to Tab 14, "Inspector Wright." 23 A: Tab 14. Okay. 24 Q: Haste makes waste sometimes. 25 A: And page what, sir?


1 Q: The fifth page. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if we -- at the bottom of page, 4 you go up one (1), two (2), three (3), four (4), five 5 (5), six (6) paragraphs, there's a paragraph: 6 "ERT and TRU: [It's the 7th] Stan, 7 inner- perimeter requires twenty-four 8 (24) men, two (2) teams, map will be 9 attached for their location, uniform 10 and equipment issues will be the grey 11 tactical issues. Long guns to ERT in 12 the trunk. We're going to be on the 13 outside of the fence because if for 14 some reason we're not trapped inside. 15 John's perception is the main emergency 16 concern is from the camp. Discussion 17 occurred and it will be discussed 18 further later. 19 Gate at maintenance yard will be open. 20 JOHN: When we approach the Natives to 21 leave, we always stay in their face. 22 MARK: The Natives will be using women 23 and children. Sees threat from 24 outsiders trying to get into the Park. 25 JOHN: This is the main concern for


1 our perimeter. The whole reason for 2 cordon is to maintain the amount of 3 people in the Park." 4 And can you tell us what that refers to -- 5 your understanding what those paragraphs refer to? 6 A: Sure. The first paragraph is just 7 dealing with the number of people that would be -- be 8 required in the event we were going to -- this was -- 9 assuming this was going to work, that we were going to 10 put officers in, and the number of people that would be 11 required to provide a perimeter would be twenty-four (24) 12 -- twenty-four (24) officers. 13 And that this was the -- there was a 14 discussion with regards to what their uniform and 15 equipment would -- would be including long guns in the 16 trunks of the vehicles. 17 And that if we were going to be doing 18 this, we were going to be -- we were going to be 19 providing that perimeter on the outside of the fence 20 because it was -- and the reason for that, as I recall, 21 is that if for some reason we had to withdraw, we didn't 22 want to have our officers trapped within the body of the 23 Park, that they could leave quickly and easily. 24 So it's a matter of personal safety -- 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: -- officer safety. And it's, you 2 know, the comment that John's perception is the main 3 emergency concern is from the camp and I think what he -- 4 what that is and -- if -- that we were going to have a 5 problem, that it would come from people from the camp 6 into the Park. 7 Q: More -- more people would come into 8 the -- into the -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- into the Park from the camp. 11 A: Right. And there was a -- there was 12 a gate at the maintenance yard, which is off of Matheson 13 Drive, and we wanted that gate open so in the event we 14 had to exit, we could. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: So it was -- it was another -- it was 17 another exit available to the officers. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And when we approach the Natives to 20 leave, we always stay in their face. My recollection 21 from that is that Inspector Carson wanted us -- if we 22 were going to be in the Park and this was going to take 23 place, then he didn't want the officers at one corner of 24 the Park and the occupiers in another corner of the Park. 25 He wanted them in and amongst them, if at all possible,


1 and to engage in conversation and -- and try to open up 2 this communication so we -- we could deal with the 3 situation. 4 So we wanted them right in amongst the 5 people who were going to be occupying the Park. 6 Q: And this is on the cohabitation 7 model? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Okay. Then there's a reference to 10 you? 11 A: Yes. Just that -- that as -- that it 12 was my experience, based on what happened at CFB 13 Ipperwash, that if they were going to take the possession 14 of the Provincial Park that, in all likelihood, in all 15 likelihood, women and children would be involved in the 16 occupation of the -- of the Park and that we should be 17 alive to the fact that we're potentially going to be -- 18 have to be dealing with women and children. 19 And my position was the threat was to 20 outsiders and that was -- as I recall, my concern was not 21 so much the people at -- of -- that were occupying the 22 CFB Ipperwash, but those who were not from the area. 23 Q: Your concern was not for the people 24 who were at the Army Camp or from Kettle Point, but from 25 people outside this general area?


1 A: Yeah, in that I -- I guess when I 2 say, "my concern," I -- I expected that people from the 3 Army Camp were going to be involved in the occupation, my 4 concern was that if there people from outside that area 5 involved. 6 Q: And why was that a concern? 7 A: Well, because of the conversation I 8 had had with Glenn George, and frankly I agreed with him, 9 was that, you know, that we had had a reasonable working 10 relationship with the people on CFB Ipperwash. 11 I mean, they'd been there since '93, to 12 some extent, on the Base, and that seemed to work 13 reasonably well. And when we did have some problems they 14 were identified from coming from people who didn't see 15 that as their community, as it were, but were there for a 16 night or two (2) or -- or saw that as a potential cause. 17 Q: Okay. And then on the last page 18 there's a -- a reference: 19 "John does not want to be in a verbal 20 barrage when they're sitting in there. 21 You can cohabitate if you want without 22 any major problems; that would be fine. 23 The more in the face you are, the less 24 risk you are. If the people inside 25 want to leave, that's fine."


1 Do you recall what that reference was? 2 A: Oh, here it is. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Basically what I was alluding to 7 earlier is that John, John being Inspector Carson, did 8 not want confrontation, verbal confrontation with the 9 people in the Park. If we were going to cohabitate with 10 them that was fine. And, you know, the more you were 11 around, the more you communicated, the less chance that 12 there was of -- the less risk you are in because you're 13 in dialogue with these people. 14 And if the people inside the Park wanted 15 to leave then, you know, absolutely that would be fine, 16 that would have been just fine. 17 Q: And then there's a note attributed to 18 you: 19 "When people come into the Park we will 20 see them and we'll arrest them." 21 And what's that refer to? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I -- I really don't know, unless it


1 has to do with -- I mean if they were coming into the 2 Park and they were -- I -- I know initially we were 3 talking about they were trespassing, but I suspect -- I 4 mean they would have to -- they would have -- common 5 sense would say they would have to be committing an 6 offence before they could be arrested or there wouldn't 7 be -- there wouldn't be any point to that, so I don't 8 know what my mind set was there, frankly. 9 Q: Okay. And were you aware back in 10 September 1st, 1995 that when the Camp closed for 11 overnight campers, that day users might use the -- not 12 the Camp, I meant the Park, closed for overnight campers 13 that it might be used by day people? 14 A: Yes, that -- yes, I was aware of 15 that. 16 Q: And those day people would include -- 17 could include people from the Army Camp? 18 A: Sure, anywhere. 19 Q: Now, then the last line: 20 "Give a copy to Mark Wright and we will 21 have the master plan typed." 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And what's that refer to? What's 24 your understanding of what -- 25 A: That -- that was -- they were tasked


1 with preparing their particular portion of the plan 2 including, you know, who their replacement was and who 3 was going to assist them, and they were going to deliver 4 it to me and I was going to have it typed and we were 5 going to put it together into a package and -- and then 6 you had the formulation of the plan. 7 Q: And the -- on September the 2nd 8 there's a note at page 71 of Exhibit P-1086 and could you 9 tell us what you did on September 2nd with respect to 10 this matter? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: From my notebook entries, sir? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: That -- 17 Q: Or from memory if you -- that helps. 18 A: Yeah. I just -- I contacted 19 Inspector Carson re. additional planning as well as -- as 20 well as an incident in Ipperwash, so I'm not sure whether 21 or not we had a -- a separate incident at Ipperwash that 22 I felt needed to be reported to him or not. 23 Q: And, in any event, the plan was typed 24 up and turned into what is now, at Tab 16, Exhibit P-424, 25 Project Maple?


1 A: Right. 2 Q: And in August of 1995 did you have 3 any discussions with the Military about -- excuse me -- 4 prior to August, July 29th, 1980 -- '95, did you have any 5 discussions with the Military as to what was happening on 6 Camp Ipperwash? 7 A: Prior to -- 8 Q: The takeover of the built-up area by 9 the -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- occupiers? 12 A: Did -- did I have any comms.? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: No. 15 Q: And did you receive reports from the 16 Military -- 17 A: About what? 18 Q: -- you personally, about incidents at 19 the Army Camp? 20 A: About incidents at the Army Camp? 21 Not that I -- 22 Q: The -- 23 A: Not that I recall. 24 Q: For example, if there was an 25 interaction between one (1) of the occupiers on the range


1 and a Military police officer? 2 A: Well, yeah, sure. If they -- if they 3 had made a complaint to us with respect -- and it -- but 4 it would be in the -- 5 Q: The Incident Log? 6 A: -- if that in fact happened it would 7 be in the log, yeah. 8 Q: And that would be the log Exhibit P- 9 411? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And were you aware that in 1995, in 12 the summer of 1995, that the Military called what they 13 were doing, Operation Maple? 14 A: Was I aware back then? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Absolutely not. 17 Q: When did you become aware of that? 18 A: When I watched the Inquiry. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: And -- and Deputy Commissioner Carson 21 was giving evidence to that effect. 22 Q: Now, if I could take you to your 23 notebook for September the 3rd? 24 A: September the 3rd? 25 Q: It's page 72.


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: And what, if anything, did you do 3 with respect to the Ipperwash Provincial Park on that 4 day; that's Sunday, September the 3rd? 5 A: Right. I'm making some calls to some 6 officers, Detective and -- Detective Sergeant Richardson 7 and Parent were handling the crime side of the package 8 and I -- call made -- I made a call to Provincial 9 Constable Evans who was the Ident Officer. 10 And as I recall, I called him so that he 11 was aware that he was going to be in charge of the Ident 12 Section and that I'm sure it was in relation to his part 13 of the plan. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: And I called Sergeant Korosec and I - 16 - I'm sure about -- I suspect there were discussions 17 regarding his part of the plan, the ERT portion of it. 18 And apparently I made another call to Richardson later 19 and I'm sure it's all in dealing with the preparation of 20 this plan, getting these things together. 21 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to P- 22 424, Project Maple. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you have any responsibility with 25 respect to vetting the various proposals made by the


1 different groups? 2 A: Not that I recall. 3 Q: And if -- on the intelligence plan 4 which appears at, "Intelligence Function," at page 8, the 5 assignment appears to be -- to identify the people who 6 are occupying the Base or visiting the Base? 7 A: Are you talking about page 4 as it's 8 marked on the package itself? 9 Q: I mean page 8. It should be -- I 10 thought I said page 8. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: It says, "Intelligence Function." 13 A: Mine doesn't say that. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Oh, here we are. Sorry, there's -- I 18 skipped by that and gone through another page 8, yes, 19 I've -- it's over here. Okay. 20 Q: Okay. The first page 8. 21 A: The first page 8. 22 Q: Do you see that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what was your understanding as to 25 how that would relate to the Provincial Park?


1 Was their role also to identify the people 2 going into the Park? 3 A: Well the idea here is that the people 4 that would be going into the Base would have access into 5 the Park. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: So the idea was to obviously get an 8 idea of the number of people and -- and who they were as 9 far as who might -- who we might come in contact with 10 down at the Park. 11 Q: And it appears that the primary, at 12 least from reading this page 8 in Exhibit P-424, the 13 primary duties was to really identify the people who 14 might be in the Park or might be in the Base going to the 15 Park. 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And that was your understanding? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now the -- at page 2 of the copy of 20 Exhibit P-425 that you have in front of you, it indicates 21 the objective was to contain and negotiate a peaceful 22 resolution of the problem, that's -- 23 A: P-424 you mean, right? 24 Q: P-424, the Project Maple. 25 A: Right.


1 Q: If you look at page 2. And that was 2 the objective? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the third page in with the little 5 number 3 at the top, "Community Liaison." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And talking to the effected 8 stakeholders including local municipal officials, the 9 Kettle and Stony -- Chief of Kettle and Stony Point Band 10 were people that were to be communicated with -- as part 11 of this plan? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And who was to do the communication? 14 There's a note at the bottom: 15 "Personal assigned to liaison duties 16 have a sound understanding of the local 17 historical issues." 18 A: Well I know who was assigned. It was 19 Sergeant Seltzer and retired Staff Sergeant, I think -- 20 yeah, retired Staff Sergeant Lorne Smith was -- was the 21 one who consulted with the -- or -- yeah, consulted with 22 the Chief of Kettle and Stony -- Stony Point Band. 23 And I know at certain times I was 24 delegated to deal with some local municipal officials and 25 in particular the Mayor of Bosanquet Township.


1 And then Inspector Carson dealt with other 2 officials. 3 Q: Okay. And so that it was either 4 Inspector Carson, yourself or Sergeant Seltzer and -- or 5 Lorne Smith that were involved in the communications with 6 local stakeholders? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now turning to September the 4th, can 9 you tell us how did you become aware of the takeover of 10 the Provincial Park or the occupation of the Provincial 11 Park by the occupiers? 12 A: I was called at home at -- by 13 Sergeant Eve -- 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: -- at approximately seven o'clock at 16 night and I was told that a number of Natives had taken 17 possession of the Park -- Ipperwash Provincial Park. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: We still had in place the -- the ERT 20 team up in that area and the Park was closing down at the 21 time. I was -- I was told that the Number 1 District ERT 22 team was on scene. 23 And I told Sergeant Eve that I would 24 attend as soon as possible and I told her to call Staff 25 Sergeant Dennis and Detective Sergeant Richardson and


1 Sergeant Babbitt and advise them to attend as well. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And then I've been told that -- that 4 a cruiser had been damaged by an individual by the name 5 of Judas George and I have the word Judas in quotation 6 marks. I took that to be a nickname of sorts. 7 Q: And now I note that you're referring 8 to your notes at page 73 of Exhibit P-1086 and if you 9 look at page 72 of your notebook it indicates notes in 10 Major Event notebook 04 arrow 20 Sep '95, notes in 11 separate notebook. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And you maintained a separate 14 notebook for the period September 4th to September 20th, 15 1995? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And with respect to the notes in the 18 separate notebook, what was your practice with respect to 19 the notes -- putting the notes in the Major Events 20 notebook? 21 A: What was -- I -- I would put my -- I 22 would put pen to paper I guess as soon as practical after 23 -- after whatever it was I was doing that when I felt 24 there was need to put it to -- in my notebook. 25 Q: And what -- did you follow any


1 procedure -- how did you decide what you were going to 2 put in your Major Event notebook, Inspector Wright? 3 A: Well there was also a scribe -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- at the incident as well and I was 6 aware that the scribe was taking down any information 7 that would be pertinent or important and however I did 8 when I could, put -- make my own independent notes 9 depending upon what was going on. 10 And as the incident unfolded whether or 11 not I -- whether or not I put information in my notebook 12 and the time at which I got to my notebook was largely 13 dependent upon how I was otherwise engaged with respect 14 to the multitude of things that were going on during that 15 particular timeframe. 16 Q: And in your notebook at page 73, you 17 indicate that you arrived "20:13 arrived Forest 18 Detachment." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then it says: 21 "All actions on my part taken down by 22 scribe, Provincial Constable Shawn 23 Johnson." 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And so the things that you might


1 otherwise have put in your notebook are in the scribe 2 notes? 3 A: Yes. And -- and that's I mean I'm -- 4 I'm putting that in my notebook; that's a rather sweeping 5 comment by me at September 4th that because Constable 6 Johnson would then be replaced by yet another scribe and 7 so that's not necessarily accurate that Constable Johnson 8 was responsible for capturing everything that I did. It 9 was just when I got there Johnson was doing the scribe. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: Scribing. 12 Q: But the note indicates that some of 13 the activities that you undertook -- undertook would be 14 entered only in the scribe note? 15 A: Right. Correct. 16 Q: And can you tell us what you did 17 generally the evening of September the 4th? 18 A: What I did generally the evening of 19 September the 4th. 20 When I got there I was aware that Korosec 21 was in the Park with a number of his officers and in very 22 short order -- well, I got there with -- and Carson 23 showed up as well shortly thereafter and then Sergeant 24 Korosec was having a -- a difficult time dealing with the 25 people who are occupying the Park because of what he felt


1 was potentially a violent... 2 It wasn't -- it wasn't a peaceful 3 occupation of the Park to begin with so he was somewhat 4 concerned. He moved back. The instructions were as I 5 recall that for him to try and maintain a position at the 6 bridge. 7 There was a bridge. If you go into 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park you immediately after getting 9 past the kiosk there's a bit of a bridge there and if you 10 turn right there's the maintenance shed and Inspector 11 Carson wanted him to attempt to hold at that location 12 because the idea was we wanted to cohabitate or co-exist 13 within the boundaries of that Park. 14 And I -- I know the scribe notes will have 15 it in there and the radio log show that so I'm not 16 exactly at what point this happens but Korosec calls a 17 10-78 which is a -- a code for officer needs assistance 18 and it's a very -- an officer doesn't make that call 19 lightly. 20 In any event we quickly tried to find out 21 how many people were in -- in the -- in the area, in the 22 County, to start -- so that we could send to assist but 23 it became very obvious very quickly that Korosec had to 24 pull out because of the -- the violence that had taken 25 place.


1 The cruiser, one of the cruisers had been 2 -- the rear window of one of the cruisers that Korosec 3 had with him there, I don't know if it was Sergeant 4 Korosec's cruiser per se, but one of the ERT team 5 officers, whoever was driving that particular car, the 6 back window was smashed and by Mr. -- as I recall Judas 7 George and so Korosec felt it prudent that he needed to 8 remove his team from the Park so he did because of 9 officer safety. 10 So we set up -- Inspector Carson set up a 11 -- a perimeter quickly around the -- the outside of the 12 Park as I recall and then there were -- eventually there 13 were road checkpoints set up and Korosec came back and 14 reported in. 15 And Mr. Kobayashi from the Ministry of 16 Natural Resources attended and we turned our attention to 17 attempting to make service upon the people within the 18 Park with respect to that the Park was closed and that 19 they were trespassing and that they needed to leave. 20 And as I recall Staff Sergeant Dennis 21 worked on the -- the wording of that document and, of 22 course, time is marching on when this is taking place and 23 Provincial Constable Vince George, an OPP officer, was 24 enlisted to attend at the gate or the kiosk of the Park 25 with Les Kobayashi to make service. So, the --


1 Q: Of the notice. 2 A: Of the notice, that's right. So 3 there was a lot of logistics involved in that sort of an 4 enterprise in ensuring that, you know, are they going to 5 be safe when they do this and how do we ensure their 6 safety and additional officers in and around them and was 7 officer -- Constable George prepared to do this, because 8 we appreciated, certainly, that that was putting him in a 9 difficult situation. 10 In any event, you know, to his credit he 11 agreed to do -- to do that and he went with Mr. Kobayashi 12 and they attempted to make service and they -- they 13 didn't make literal service of the document, as I recall, 14 but Kobayashi made it clear that -- he made verbal -- he 15 gave verbal notice, that's my understanding, with respect 16 to that the Park was closed and that they were 17 trespassing and they ought to leave. 18 So, that having been accomplished, and I 19 believe, and again it's in the scribe notes and/or -- and 20 I believe it's in the scribe notes, but my -- my 21 recollection of this is that we were told to come back 22 the next day at noon, 'cause they didn't want to talk to 23 us then. 24 And so Officer George and Mr. Kobayashi 25 came back and they reported what had taken place and I --


1 as I recall Korosec had said that his feelings were that 2 some of the occupiers had been drinking and I think 3 Constable George reported that to us upon his arrival at 4 the command post. 5 Q: Okay 6 A: In any event, that having been done, 7 there was a mobile command post that was situated in 8 London and Inspector Carson made arrangements for that to 9 start to make its way to Forest Detachment and there were 10 notifications that Inspector Carson had to concern 11 himself with, with respect up the chain of command. 12 And we had people starting to come that 13 were involved in the -- the unit heads, as it were, and 14 ERT teams, and I can't -- I think it was 1 and 2, but 15 once again it will be in the scribe notes, as to exactly 16 the ERT teams that were assigned to do the checkpoints 17 and patrol that evening. 18 And we had, as I recall it, 6 and 3 coming 19 -- 6 and 3 District ERT teams coming for the morning. 20 So, the -- the emphasis that evening was 21 to attempt to make -- attempt to coexist with them; that 22 didn't work. 23 To move out of the Park; we moved out of 24 the Park; to attempt to make service, we did that 25 verbally, as far as I'm concerned, and to contain the


1 situation with checkpoints and patrols and bring in the 2 assets that we needed for however this -- long this was 3 going to take. 4 And some time late into that -- or into 5 the morning, we all left to get some sleep and we came 6 back early the next morning, which would be the morning 7 of the 5th. 8 Q: Okay. And on your notes, Exhibit P- 9 1086, there's an indication you went off duty at 03:00? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And now at Tab -- 12 A: Sir, if -- if I may -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: I think I can assist you with the -- 15 my comment with respect to: 16 "If we see them come in the Park, we 17 can arrest them." 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: I think what I'm alluding to is that, 20 and I believe it's in our package, is that if -- if the 21 Park was supposed to close that day. 22 So the idea was that if -- if the Park 23 closed and a small number of people came in to the Park, 24 a small number of First Nations people came into the 25 Park, then they would be told that they were trespassing,


1 that the Park was closed. And if they failed to abide by 2 that, then they could be dealt with pursuant to the 3 Trespass to Property Act, and they'd be found committing 4 under the Provincial Offences Act and they could be 5 arrested. 6 That was if a -- there was a small number 7 of them and it -- and under those conditions that -- that 8 -- that could take place. 9 So, I -- what I'm alluding to there is 10 Part 1 of the plan -- well, not so much Part 1, but if a 11 small number of people came in, that can be dealt with in 12 that matter, then that's the way it was going to happen. 13 However, if a larger number of people came 14 in, then the cohabitation plan, as it were, would start 15 up. 16 Q: And what was your understanding on 17 the evening of September 4th as to how many people 18 entered the Park? 19 A: Again, it would be in the scribe 20 notes but my recollection is twenty (20) to forty (40) 21 individuals. 22 Q: And perhaps I could ask you to turn 23 to Tab 18 of the black book in front of you, the one that 24 your left arm is sitting on. 25 A: Thank you.


1 Q: And that's a copy of a portion of the 2 scribe notes. It's Exhibit P-426. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I had just some questions for you 5 and the -- when you attended at the -- at -- in Forest on 6 the evening of September 4th, the project was -- the 7 operation command post was inside the Forest Detachment 8 initially? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were you in the same -- where 11 were you in relation to John Carson? Were the two (2) of 12 you together or -- 13 A: Yes. Very close by, I'm sure I would 14 have been. 15 Q: And were -- where were you located in 16 the -- in Forest Detachment? Was there a large room or 17 was there an office or -- 18 A: Well, Forest Detachment is a very 19 small -- it's your typical, small OPP Detachment with one 20 (1) large room that dominates the -- the middle of the 21 building and that's where the constables' work stations 22 are and that -- those are just a -- a number of desks. 23 And then there are three (3) small 24 offices, one (1) for the Detachment -- one (1) for the 25 steno, one (1) for the Detachment Commander, one (1) for


1 another steno and a breathalyser room. 2 So there's four (4) other rooms plus this 3 large room and -- and I think in the project it 4 identifies what rooms belong -- are going to be run -- 5 are going to be taken over by what section, and it's a 6 pretty reasonable diagram of Forest Detachment. 7 Q: And at -- that's at Tab 16 of your 8 book. It's the third page from the back. There's a 9 diagram, Forest Detachment. 10 A: From the back, sir? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Yes, that's it, yeah. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the incident commander is 18 identified as going in to what appears to be a sergeant's 19 office? 20 A: Correct, that's right. 21 Q: And that was to take place until the 22 mobile command unit arrived? Do you know if -- if it 23 worked out this way? 24 A: Yes, it did. 25 Q: Okay. And so you and John Carson


1 were working together in pretty close proximity? 2 A: Yes, although once the mobile command 3 post came, the communications are in the mobile command 4 post and my recollection is, is that Inspector Carson 5 moved his command position to the mobile command post. 6 Q: Okay, we'll get to that in a moment. 7 The mobile command -- when the mobile command post 8 arrived because I have some questions about that. 9 But on the evening of September the 4th, 10 there's an entry on page 2, at 21:26 hours: 11 "Mark Wright called back Sergeant Eve, 12 Grand Bend to main gate Petrolia to 13 Forest. Two (2) man Kent to South 14 Lambton. Call Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 15 Advise Lambton deployed. Sergeant 16 Korosec called 10-78." 17 And this is the reference to Sergeant 18 Korosec and the code 10-78? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And were you the one who was -- who 21 called Staff Sergeant Lacroix? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: No.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: I would be -- I -- I suspect what I'm 3 doing there is I'm telling Marg Eve to do this. I called 4 Sergeant Eve back and... 5 Q: So you're telling her to call -- 6 A: To do -- you had to do these things. 7 Q: -- to do these things? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then at -- there's a note at 10 21:28 hours: 11 "Inspector Carson speak to Sergeant 12 Korosec, Don't get anyone hurt. Just 13 back off. Do what is safe. Everyone 14 report to Forest." 15 Were you present when Inspector Carson was 16 on the phone to Sergeant Korosec or was it a radio 17 communication? 18 A: I think it was a radio communication. 19 Q: And did you hear the radio 20 communication? 21 A: Yes, I recall that. 22 Q: And then 21:30: 23 "John Carson advised Mark Wright brief 24 as cruiser window smashed. Troops 25 regroup."


1 And that's an advice by Mark -- John 2 Carson to you? 3 A: I -- I think that's supposed to be 4 "John Carson advised Mark Wright." 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I think what's happened is he's in 7 communication with Korosec. I must have left the room or 8 who know and -- and he's making me aware that Korosec has 9 had a vehicle damaged. 10 Q: And then at 21:45 on page 3 -- excuse 11 me, at 21:40: 12 "Mark Wright and John Carson speak of 13 possibility of tonight versus tomorrow. 14 Decide what to do if unable to regain 15 access. Speak if we keep control of 16 bridge. John Carson and Mark Wright 17 let's see." 18 Now, what do you recall was being 19 discussed? Was this the discussion about whether or not 20 you could go back in and -- and go to the bridge? 21 A: Go. Well, I -- I think what this is 22 is a conversation between John Carson and I about can we 23 cohabitate within the body of the Park? Do we attempt to 24 do this tonight or are we better off leaving this for 25 tomorrow?


1 We hadn't and Inspector Carson hadn't 2 because clearly he's the man making the decisions here 3 that -- as to what to do but -- and we -- we were talking 4 about well, what we -- what is it we were going to do if 5 we couldn't regain access to the Park because as you know 6 that was generally speaking the plan. 7 So that constituted an immediate problem 8 because we were going to have to adapt. So that's my 9 recollection of -- of what -- that's -- that's about 10 regarding moving back into the Park as -- as tonight or 11 tomorrow morning up to I suspect the location of the 12 bridge. 13 Q: And do you have any independent 14 recollection of Les Kobayashi coming and his discussion 15 with you and John Carson? There's an entry at 21:45. 16 A: Yes, I see that, yes. I -- well, as 17 I said I -- I recall that and I will have to look here 18 but my recollection is that -- 19 Q: What -- 20 A: -- Staff Sergeant Dennis was -- was 21 elected to draft the Trespass Notice because Kobayashi 22 was there and they were going to make note -- they were 23 going to -- they were going to deal with that. 24 So I recall Mr. Kobayashi -- Kobayashi 25 being there and talk about that being done.


1 Q: And there was the discussion about a 2 press release and an injunction? 3 A: Yes, there's a note in here that 4 Kobayashi -- attributed to Mr. Kobayashi that if we serve 5 the -- the notice tonight that Peter and I think that's 6 an individual from his Ministry, I think. I don't really 7 know and I don't really -- 8 Q: Were you aware of Peter Sturdy? 9 A: I've heard the name but I -- 10 Q: You don't know who the Peter was? 11 A: No, no. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That he can work on -- on the 14 injunction. I was -- I was -- I was rather naive to 15 exactly -- I had a rough idea what an injunction -- I had 16 an idea of what an injunction was going to let us do that 17 it was a court order. 18 I understood what a court order was but I 19 certainly didn't understand at this time and until much 20 later, the complexities involved in obtaining an 21 injunction. 22 Q: Okay. And the -- was there a 23 division of responsibility between you and John Carson 24 when you were both on duty, you as his Number 2 as to who 25 did what?


1 A: Well Inspector Carson was the man in 2 charge. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And there was never any doubt of that 5 with -- certainly as far as I was concerned. And as far 6 -- we worked very close together and I was dealing with 7 the -- I would say I was dealing with the -- not always, 8 but with the minutia and he was dealing with the bigger 9 picture. 10 So I was, you know, dealing with Korosec 11 and the people coming in and out and -- and cars and all 12 those sort of things. But I was certainly alive to the - 13 - the very important things that were going on because I 14 was very fortunate to have an exceptional working 15 relationship with then Inspector Carson. 16 And -- and we were able to work very well 17 together and that -- that ability to pass information 18 back and forth worked reasonably well for the most part. 19 Q: And so that in general terms, 20 Inspector Carson dealt with the more big picture of 21 issues and you dealt with making sure the cars were there 22 and people were there and the -- the equipment and people 23 that were needed were there in Forest and at Ipperwash 24 Provincial Park? 25 A: Yes. But I -- I -- with respect I


1 just -- I don't want -- I'm a little concerned about 2 that -- 3 Q: I'm just trying to understand. 4 A: Yeah, I appreciate that. 5 Q: You explain to me. 6 A: The concern is on my part is that, 7 you know, Inspector Carson dealt with a lot of issues and 8 he -- and he as well dealt with minutia as I've described 9 it as well as certainly the major issues there. 10 He was a man of many tasks and -- and he 11 was able to -- to deal with that very effectively. And 12 yes, I dealt with things that I felt needed to be done 13 and -- but he included me in important -- the important 14 part of this plan as he did the other officers as well, 15 those unit heads. 16 So I -- I just don't want to make it 17 sound like I was overly important or not important 18 whatsoever and I suspect there's a fine line here but I 19 just -- I'm trying very hard to explain to you my 20 position there. 21 It was a very unique position. I was a 22 jack of all trades as it were as it related to that 23 operation. 24 Q: And -- and Inspector Carson as he 25 then was, was -- to use a term an inclusive leader? He -


1 - he worked closely with all of the people he worked 2 with? 3 A: Yes. Yes. 4 Q: That's what you're trying to say? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now can I ask you to turn to page 4 7 of the scribed note? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, it's 12 almost 4:25 and it might be appropriate -- I think our 13 witness and -- is perhaps getting a little tired and it 14 might be an appropriate time to stop for the day. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I still hope 16 you will finish sometime tomorrow; that's still a 17 possibility? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, I will for sure. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You will 20 finish tomorrow? That's fine, then, let's stop for the 21 day. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's stop 24 for the day. We'll reconvene tomorrow morning at nine 25 o'clock.


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 2 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, February the 22nd at 3 9:00 a.m. 4 5 (WITNESS RETIRES) 6 7 --- Upon adjourning at 4:19 p.m. 8 9 10 11 Certified Correct, 12 13 14 15 _________________ 16 Carol Geehan, Ms. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25