11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 10th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodie-Lynn Waddilove ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) (np) 17 Megan Mackey ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) (np) 21 Melissa Panjer ) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 LARRY ALLEN FRENCH, Sworn/Affirmed 5 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 6 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 69 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 70 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 74 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Bill Hourigan 122 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 125 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 132 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now in 4 session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden presiding. 5 Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Our next witness is 11 Mr. Larry French. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. French. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. French. 16 Do you prefer to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an 17 alternate oath, sir? 18 THE WITNESS: It don't matter, I'll use 19 either one -- both. 20 THE REGISTRAR: You want to use both? 21 THE WITNESS: It don't matter. 22 23 LARRY ALLEN FRENCH, Sworn/Affirmed 24 25 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
71 Q: Mr. French, I understand that you're 2 here as a result of a summons having been issued to you 3 by the Commission; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And as I understand it you were born 6 on June 29th, 1947? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And you're a member of the Chippewa 9 of the Thames First Nation? 10 A: Yes, that's right. 11 Q: And you operate a horse farm at the 12 Chippewa of the Thames First Nation? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the Chippewa of the Thames First 15 Nation is located southwest of London? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And, while you don't use this name, 18 you're sometimes been called "Dutch" or "Dutchie;" is 19 that correct? 20 A: That, among a lot of other things. 21 Q: But we've been heard -- we've heard 22 you described as "Dutch" or Dutchie" and that is a 23 nickname that people use with -- with you? 24 A: I guess I can recognize it, yeah. 25 Q: And one thing, I think we're -- the
81 Reporter's having difficulty, could you just pull that -- 2 is it okay? Okay, thank you. 3 And I understand that you have three (3) 4 children? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: The oldest -- your oldest daughter is 7 thirty-four (34)? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Your son is thirty-three (33)? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And your youngest daughter is twenty- 12 three (23)? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And if I could take you back in time 15 for a moment, but before I go there, from 1986 to 2000 16 you were an elected Band councillor at the Chippewa of 17 the Thames First Nation, is that correct? 18 A: Yeah, somewhere in there -- somewhere 19 in those years, yeah, twelve (12) years. 20 Q: Twelve (12) years? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So '86 -- '88 to 2000 or -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- there are twelve (12) years in 25 that period?
91 A: Let me -- I can give you a correct -- 2 yeah, I think '86. 3 Q: '86? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And you were a Band councillor for 6 twelve (12) years? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And if I could take you back in time 9 to when you were younger, I understand that you attended 10 the Mohawk Residential School outside of Brantford? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And that you attended the Residential 13 School for -- from the time you were eight (8) until you 14 were twelve (12) or thirteen (13)? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that your experiences at the 17 Residential School were very bad? 18 A: If you could -- bad's not really the 19 word for it. But -- 20 Q: What word would you use? 21 A: Well, let's settle for bad right now, 22 because I have other words that it would -- 23 Q: And that over the period of when you 24 were at the Residential School you left the School on 25 numerous occasions?
101 A: Yes. 2 Q: And when you were twelve (12) or 3 thirteen (13) you left the school and walked over one 4 hundred (100) kilometres back to your home at the 5 Chippewa the Thames First Nation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And as a result of that walk of over 8 a hundred (100) kilometres you froze both your feet? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And after that walk you never went 11 back to the Residential School? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And if I could turn to another 14 subject, when you were sixteen (16) I understand that you 15 pleaded guilty to a charge of theft under Section 280 of 16 the Criminal Code and were sentenced to thirty (30) days; 17 is that correct? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And when you were seventeen (17) you 20 were con -- you pleaded guilty to theft of an auto and 21 were given a three (3) months sentence? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And at -- on the same day in 19 -- 24 March 5th, 1964 you were -- pleaded guilty to two (2) 25 additional charges of theft of an auto and given four (4)
111 months each concurrent; is that correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And again when you were seventeen 4 (17), in November 1994, you pleaded again to theft under 5 Section 280 of the Criminal Code and were given a 6 sentence of thirty (30) days? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And in September of 1966, when you 9 were nineteen (19), you were charged with mischief and 10 pleaded guilty and were given a sentence of three (3) 11 months? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And on August 6th, 1968 you pleaded 14 guilty to theft under Section 280 of the Criminal Code 15 and was sentenced to six (6) months? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And on the same day you pleaded 18 guilty to dangerous driving and were given a sentence of 19 three (3) months and prohibited for driving for two (2) 20 years; is that correct? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And then in October 1978, you were 23 convicted, after a trial, of robbery under Section 303 of 24 the Criminal Code and sentenced to ninety (90) days 25 intermittent and a fine of five hundred dollars ($500)
121 and the fault of which you were to be incarcerated for 2 three (3) months; is that correct? 3 A: Yeah. They called it robbery, I 4 didn't call it robbery. Robbery sounds like it -- sounds 5 like it was a vicious attack, but it wasn't. 6 Q: What was it? 7 A: Well, something like I call 8 jackrolling which I had been jackrolled many a times 9 myself so that's -- what goes around comes around. 10 Q: And you paid the fine of five hundred 11 dollars ($500)? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And then on August the 3rd, 1982 you 14 were convicted, as a result, as I understand it, of a 15 Negotiated Plea During the Course of a Trial, of Assault 16 Causing Bodily Harm, and given a one (1) month sentence? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And you pleaded guilty to Pointing a 19 Firearm and given a six (6) months sentence, consecutive 20 to the first sentence? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And you were convicted as -- pleaded 23 guilty as well, to Failing to Appear, there were two (2) 24 charges, and you were given seven (7) days on each charge 25 consecutive; is that correct?
131 A: Correct. 2 Q: And I take it the Failure to Appear 3 arose out of the other charges disposed of at the same 4 time? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: The same day, you pleaded guilty to 7 Causing a Disturbance, and given a seven (7)-day sentence 8 consecutive to the other sentences for that charge; is 9 that correct? 10 A: I think, yeah. 11 Q: And on the same you pleaded guilty to 12 Possession of a Narcotic, and were sentenced to ten (10) 13 days? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Is that correct? Then on February 16 22nd, 1984, after a trial, you were convicted of Theft 17 Under Two Hundred Dollars ($200) and fined one hundred 18 and fifty -- two (2) charges of Theft Under Two Hundred 19 Dollars ($200), and fined a hundred and fifty dollars 20 ($150) in default of payment of the fine, thirty (30) 21 days on each charge; is that correct? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And you paid the fines? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Then on December 2nd, 1988, in
141 London, you were convicted after a trial, of Theft Under 2 a Thousand Dollars ($1000) and given a suspended sentence 3 and two (2) years probation, and a Restitution Order was 4 made; is that correct? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Then on December 7th, 1990, you were 7 -- pleaded guilty to Driving while Impaired, and given a 8 sentence of three hundred dollars ($300) fine in default, 9 thirty (30) days, and you were prohibited from driving 10 for one (1) year; is that correct? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you paid the fine? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And in -- on February 18th, 1982, you 15 were convicted of Driving While Disqualified, and you 16 pleaded guilty to that, and were given a sentence of 17 thirty (30) days and prohibited from driving for two (2) 18 years? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And, as I understand it, with respect 21 to the charge in 1982, the charges that we dealt -- we 22 discussed in 1982, there was also a Prohibition Order 23 with respect to firearms? 24 A: Yeah, I understood -- yeah, I think 25 there was a ten (10)-year prohibition or something like
151 that. 2 Q: Ten (10)-year prohibition? And the - 3 - if I could turn to another subject, can you tell me 4 when you first became aware of the issues surrounding the 5 land at Stoney Point, the Army Camp? 6 A: I'm not sure of the years, but I'm 7 not sure if I was on Council at the time, but I do recall 8 coming down here on a bus. 9 Q: And was that sometime in the '70's, 10 when the bus -- there was a bus trip down from the 11 Chippewa of the Thames First Nation to -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- the Army Camp? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And that was part of a -- what was 16 the purpose of the bus trip? 17 A: Well, it was support -- support of 18 the Stoney -- Stoney Tribe, to -- to have their land 19 returned to them. 20 Q: And as I understand it, the Chippewa 21 of the Thames First Nation, had land taken by the Federal 22 Government during World War II for military purposes; is 23 that correct? 24 A: That's correct, yeah. 25 Q: And after the War, that land was
161 returned to the Chippewa of the Thames First Nation? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I understand that you knew, know 4 and knew, many people who lived at Kettle and Stony 5 Point? 6 A: I knew a few, yeah. Not everybody, I 7 knew a few. 8 Q: And you knew Dudley George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you were friends with Dudley? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you -- when did you first meet 13 Dudley George? 14 A: Oh, I don't know, we were younger, 15 probably back in the 80s. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: Early 80s. 20 Q: -- you were a -- you knew Melvin Dan 21 George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I understand that you knew -- 24 you've known them for over -- you knew them for over 25 thirty (30) years before their deaths?
171 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And you knew Judas George who's also 3 called "Roderick"? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And Cecil Bernard George? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you've known Roderick George and 8 Bernard George for many years as I understand it? 9 A: Bernard, I knew for a very long time, 10 but I just met Roderick prior to the -- prior to -- 11 Q: The events in 1995? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And the -- prior to September 1995, 14 had you visited the Ipperwash -- Ipperwash Provincial 15 Park? 16 A: As a camper one (1) time, I brought 17 my children down. 18 Q: And that was the only time? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that was when your children were 21 younger? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And were you aware of the movement of 24 the people from Kettle and Stony Point First Nation onto 25 the Army Camp, in 1993?
181 A: I may have -- I may have heard, I 2 can't -- I don't really recall '93. I think I heard -- I 3 didn't know they moved in or just started negotiating or 4 what the deal was. I -- I may have been out of the 5 country at the time, I'm not sure. 6 Q: Okay. And -- 7 A: But I -- rumours I heard, you know. 8 Q: And you visited Kettle and Stony 9 Point First Nation from time to time? 10 A: Yes. Yeah. 11 Q: And I understand you, at some point, 12 played ball -- baseball down there? 13 A: Yeah, we played regular tournaments 14 around -- 15 Q: And from the period 1993 to 19 -- 16 September 1990 -- the beginning of September 1995, did 17 you visit the Army Camp? 18 A: Come back again? 19 Q: From -- from 1993 to when you went 20 down at the beginning of September 1995, did you visit 21 the Army Camp? 22 A: No, no. 23 Q: And I understand that you are a 24 hunter? 25 A: Yeah, I used to be.
191 Q: You used to be? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And you don't hunt now? 4 A: No, I haven't hunted since they 5 prohibited me from carrying a weapon. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: I made a living by hunting and then 8 after that I had to go to work. 9 Q: So prior to that you were a hunter 10 and that's how you made your living -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- and after that -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- had to change -- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- you stopped being a hunter and got 17 another job? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you own a firearm today? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And in 1995 did you own any firearms? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And have you owned any firearms since 24 1982 -- the prohibition order? 25 A: No.
201 Q: And -- 2 A: I've handled them. I mean I -- I've 3 handled them, but I haven't -- they weren't mine, you 4 know. 5 Q: And if I could take you back to 6 September of 1995, you attended at the Army Camp on 7 September 5th, 1995; is that correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And how did you come to attend at the 10 Army Camp on September 5th, 1995? 11 A: Some of my friends from back home 12 approached me and wanted a ride down and said that Dudley 13 wanted me to come down and visit and so they -- they 14 asked if I could give them a ride, so I came down. 15 Q: And the people that you came down 16 with were Chuck George? 17 A: Yes, one (1) of them. 18 Q: And Al George? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And Buck Doxtator? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And Gabriel Doxtator? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And how long did you -- when you 25 decided to come down, what if anything did you know,
211 personally know, about the Ipperwash Provincial Park and 2 the events at the Park, on September 5th? 3 A: Not a whole lot, I -- I was under 4 the assumption that -- I heard that they had gave -- the 5 MNR had gave the keys to the guys in the Park and I was 6 under the assumption that they returned it back to them 7 so I was happy for them, you know, that was -- that was 8 my feeling at the time, until I got here. 9 Q: Okay. And when -- when you made the 10 plan to come to the Army Camp on September 5th, how long 11 did you intend to stay? 12 A: Afternoon. 13 Q: Just for the day? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And so your intention was to come 16 down and then go home that evening? 17 A: Yes more or less. Yeah basically. 18 Q: And can you tell us what happened 19 when you arrived? Commissioner, excuse me for a minute. 20 I think I have a technical problem with the power on this 21 computer I believe. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Excuse me for one minute. Mr.
221 French, I'm putting up behind you a diagram, do you -- 2 and this diagram was marked Exhibit P-40 in these 3 proceedings; do you recognize that diagram? 4 A: Vaguely. 5 Q: And do you know what it depicts? 6 A: Yeah I guess it -- presume the Army 7 Camp, is it? 8 Q: You have to -- if -- Mr. French could 9 I ask you to pick up that microphone that's on the end of 10 the table and use that please? Now, when you -- on this 11 diagram Highway 21 is on the bottom, Lake Huron's on the 12 top on the lefthand side which is the west side, is Army 13 Camp Road and on the right side is where Outer Drive now 14 is the line on the right side of the map. 15 Can you tell us what happened when you 16 arrived at the Army Camp on September the 5th? 17 A: I was pulled over right at -- right 18 off of 21 at the main gate there. 19 Q: Okay, perhaps what we'll do is we'll 20 go back to use this one. This one doesn't seem to be 21 working, Mr. French. 22 A: Maybe I haven't got it on, is it? I 23 don't need it. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I'll speak up a little bit.
231 Q: Thank you. You were -- you arrived 2 at the Army Camp and were pulled over on -- at the 3 intersection of -- 4 A: Yeah right at the main gate to the 5 entrance to the Army Camp. 6 Q: On Army Camp Road? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And who were you pulled over by? 9 A: The OPP. 10 Q: And the -- did the OPP have a 11 roadblock or some other -- how did you come to stop? 12 A: There was a roadblock. 13 Q: Okay. And how many officers were 14 present at the roadblock? 15 A: I didn't count them. There was wall 16 to wall cars I seen. 17 Q: And what happened when you were 18 stopped? 19 A: My passengers jumped out and they 20 went inside and I had -- I was driving a vehicle and I 21 had to adhere to their riff raff, you know. 22 Q: Well, what did the -- what did the -- 23 what do you recall the OPP officer said to you? 24 A: Well, he asked me what I was doing 25 there, why I was going there and I got, you know I -- I
241 didn't see that it was any of their business because I 2 was going there to visit. I mean, I don't get, you know, 3 they were going to visit someone, I don't imagine, you 4 know, that they would have to tell anybody that -- where 5 they were going. 6 Q: And so did you -- so what did you say 7 to them? 8 A: Well, they made me get out of my 9 truck and I think they -- they looked through it and -- 10 and I -- I asked them -- I asked them what they were 11 doing, you know. I said, Why -- why are, you know, why 12 are you guys -- you know I says these -- 13 And then they started giving me a little 14 low-down on it, what they were doing there, that people 15 were in there illegally. I says, They're not there 16 illegally. I said, That's their land. 17 I said, The -- the reason you're standing 18 here with this monkey suit on is because they fought for 19 your freedom, you know, some of these people that own 20 that land, you know? And they weren't -- they weren't -- 21 they weren't professionals, I'll put it that way. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: They weren't professionals, who I was 24 talking to, you know. There was no professionalism 25 involved in their attitude.
251 Q: And after the exchange with the 2 officers you were permitted to go into the Army Camp? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And the officers looked through your 5 vehicle before they permitted you to go in the Army Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the -- do you know what the 8 officers were looking for? 9 A: I had no idea. 10 Q: And did you have with you any 11 firearms when you arrived at the Army Camp on September 12 5th, 1995? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And to your knowledge, did anyone 15 else that came with you have any firearms? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And can you tell us approximately 18 when you arrived at the Army Camp? And I know it's a -- 19 a long time ago, Mr. French. 20 A: What time? Early afternoon, I guess. 21 Q: And what did you do when you arrived? 22 A: I sat around visiting and then I 23 started asking them questions what was -- what was -- 24 what all -- what all the company was about. 25 Q: And by, "The company," I -- I take it
261 you mean the Ontario Provincial Police Officers? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what were you told? 4 A: The guys I talked to didn't really 5 understand why they were there, you know, I guess it was 6 just because they were -- I -- I don't know it's -- what 7 -- what can I say? I mean, you know, I mean it's their - 8 - it was their land. They were home as far as I was 9 concerned, you know, I didn't -- I wasn't questioning 10 nobody about their presence being there and -- 11 Q: And what did you do during -- after 12 your ride on September 5th at the Army Camp? You visited 13 in the built-up area, what did you do for the balance of 14 the afternoon and early evening? 15 A: I just sat around up front there. I'd 16 rode around -- I rode around the Camp, the Park, all over 17 other place. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: I mean that was the first time I ever 20 got to really view the place, you know, to look at it and 21 see what they had lost, you know. 22 Q: So -- 23 A: So, that's what I had done. 24 Q: -- you -- you drove around the roads 25 in the Army Camp --
271 A: Toured the whole Camp, yes. 2 Q: Toured the whole Camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you went up to the inland lakes? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you got up to the beaches? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you go to the -- in the 9 evening of September 5th, did you attend at the Park? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you tell us what you did at 12 the Park? What were you doing at the Park? 13 A: What was I doing? Nothing, I mean, 14 just sitting, you know, still visiting. 15 Q: Visiting? And what was the mood like 16 when you went into the Park? 17 A: We had -- we had a good mood. 18 Everybody was happy. 19 Q: And when you went down to the Park on 20 the evening of September the 5th, did you go outside the 21 Park to the -- what is know as the sandy parking lot -- 22 what we've been calling the sandy parking lot, to the 23 west of the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And if you could take a look over
281 your left shoulder, there's a diagram there that's been 2 marked Exhibit 23 in these proceedings. Do you recognize 3 that intersection, Mr. French? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And when you were in the Park on the 6 evening of September 5th, were there picnic tables out in 7 the sandy parking lot, outside the Park? 8 A: When you say tables, I don't know if 9 there was tables, I know there was one (1), because I 10 went and joined some company at one (1) table, so I paid 11 much attention if there was two (2) or three (3) or how 12 many there was. 13 Q: Okay. And could you just speak into 14 the mike a little bit, perhaps you could just pull it 15 towards you a bit. 16 A: You guys need hearing aids. 17 Q: That may very well be true but, at 18 any rate, you need to speak up just a bit. 19 And the -- so when you were -- was the 20 picnic table or picnic tables out in the sandy parking 21 lot when you got down there at -- on the evening of 22 September 5th? 23 A: Yes, it was. 24 Q: And, so, can you tell us what 25 happened. You were visiting around the sandy parking
291 lot; whereabouts were the picnic tables in sandy parking 2 lot? Can you point out on Exhibit 23, where the picnic 3 tables were? 4 A: Right in this area right here. 5 Q: And you're pointing to an area just 6 to the west of the turnstile and a gate into the Park? 7 A: Yes, in between the gate and the 8 turnstiles. I believe it was -- right in this area, 9 right here, between the turnstiles and the main gate 10 there -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- by this, whatever that is there. 13 Q: Thank you. And can you tell us, did 14 an incident occur when you were at -- outside in the 15 sandy parking lot, with -- by the picnic tables? Did 16 something happen? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Can you tell us what happened? 19 A: The OPP approached us and I don't 20 know they -- I don't know what they said, that we were -- 21 if we were trespassing or what the deal was, but they 22 wanted us moved. 23 Q: And, where did they -- they wanted 24 you to move out of the sandy parking lot? 25 A: I presume so, I don't know where they
301 wanted us to go, you know. 2 Q: And, what -- can you recall what the 3 OPP officers or officer said to you, to the group? 4 A: Well, there's a lot of ladies in 5 here, but I don't really want to get into that kind of 6 language, but you know, like I said earlier, they weren't 7 very professional people. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: And they, you know, they asked us to 10 move, like, put it that way. 11 Q: Okay. And then what happened? Did 12 you move? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And why didn't you move? 15 A: Well, why -- why should we? I mean, 16 what were we doing wrong? We weren't doing nothing 17 wrong, we were sitting -- we were, as far as I knew, I 18 mean, it's a public place, you know. I mean, there was 19 nobody trying to get by us, there was nobody -- we 20 weren't in nobody's way, we weren't blocking anybody from 21 going in or out. 22 Q: So people could have gotten by you, 23 by these picnic tables if they wanted to go up to the 24 lake? 25 A: Easily. Yeah.
311 Q: So then what happened? 2 A: Well, some dummy come up there with a 3 police cruiser and ran into us, pushed the table, while 4 people were sitting on it. I was standing at the end 5 with my foot on the -- with my foot on the bench, I 6 wasn't sitting down, I was standing up on the end of it. 7 And then the guy just kept shoving it and 8 shoving it with his cruiser, until finally, I mean, when 9 things start cracking, the table start breaking, and 10 everybody jumped up and moved off it. 11 Q: And did you observe anyone taking a - 12 - picking up a picnic table and doing something with the 13 picnic table? 14 A: Yeah. We were -- we were right 15 there, I mean, when we were -- I was on the end of it, 16 and we grabbed it and we flicked it over on the -- on the 17 cruiser. If he wanted it so bad he can have it. 18 Q: And then what happened? 19 A: Well, I'm not sure if the officer got 20 out of his cruiser or what, but I heard one (1) his 21 peers, I don't know if it was his boss or his sergeant or 22 whatever you call them, but he called him a stupid 23 mother-fucker and told him to get out of there. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: And I presume he was talking to the
321 OPP because there was no other stupid mother-fuckers 2 there, because were weren't. 3 Q: And then what happened? 4 A: Well, we -- a bunch of them, I don't 5 know what -- they -- they backed off, I think they backed 6 off, they took their -- took their cars and -- backed 7 down the road, I believe. 8 Q: And were -- did you observe -- did 9 the people in the sandy parking lot that you were with 10 throw stones at the police officers? 11 A: Yeah may have been some stone 12 throwing. I didn't -- I didn't -- I know there was a lot 13 of, you know, commotion going on, a lot of racket, a lot 14 of yelling. 15 Q: So there was yelling both ways? The 16 people you were with were yelling at the police officers 17 as well? 18 A: Yes. It was a -- it was a setup. It 19 was an intimidation thing, you know. You know what I 20 mean. 21 Q: By the -- you felt that it was an 22 intimidation by the police officers? 23 A: Yes. Yes. 24 Q: And after the incident with the 25 picnic tables in the parking lot, what did you do after
331 that incident on September 5th? 2 A: Back into the Park, after a while -- 3 yeah we went back -- I don't know, I'm not too sure. I - 4 - I went back into the Park. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. And on September 5th, did 6 you observe helicopters in and around the Park? 7 A: I'm not sure I -- well I was there, 8 you know, just a couple of days. I mean, yeah, there 9 was helicopters -- I thought there was helicopters all 10 the time it seemed to me. 11 Q: Okay. And do you recall an incident 12 involving a police officer and Mr. Dudley George while 13 you were in the Park on September 5th? 14 A: Well, yeah, they came back after the 15 picnic table ordeal. And they came up to the fence and 16 everybody was yelling back and forth and I heard, you 17 know, Dudley was standing up at the front closer to the 18 fence than I was and I presumed they were talking to him 19 but somebody said, you know, you know, that -- there was 20 -- it was just a crazy thing, you know. 21 I think I said, you know you got, you 22 know, you need a lesson in psychology, you know, or a 23 psychiatrist to describe their actions, you know -- you 24 know where I'm coming from because I'd never seen nothing 25 like it in my life. And I was not prepared for nothing
341 like that. 2 It was a disturbing act and crazy, crazy. 3 That's all, you know. And there was obscenity call -- 4 calling them, you know, I don't know if they knew Dudley 5 but they were pointing fingers and saying you're going to 6 get it and stuff like that, you know. 7 I don't know who they were. I couldn't 8 identify them. 9 Q: Pardon me, I can't hear you. 10 A: I couldn't identify nobody to -- they 11 all looked the same to me. 12 Q: And this incident, how far were you 13 from the fence or from Mr. George when this incident took 14 place? 15 A: I don't know, twenty (20), twenty- 16 five (25) feet, maybe thirty (30), I don't know. 17 Q: So you were inside the -- twenty-five 18 (25) feet away from the fence, inside the Park? 19 A: Yeah, yeah. 20 Q: Twenty (20) of twenty-five (25) feet? 21 And the -- did you -- I take it -- did you stay? What 22 did you do after the incident with the police officers 23 when they came up to the fence? How long did this take - 24 - the exchange take place? 25 A: It didn't seem like it was very long.
351 I don't know, maybe half hour or something like that. 2 Half hour, maybe longer I don't know. 3 Q: This is the incident with the police 4 up at the fence line on September 5th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And where did you stay the evening of 7 September 5th? 8 A: Up at the main Camp. 9 Q: And who did you stay with? 10 A: Stayed in Glenn George's residence. 11 Q: Okay. And on September 5th, did you 12 observe any firearms in the Park? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And if we could go to September the 15 6th, during the day on September 6th, what did you do? 16 A: What did I do? I toured -- toured 17 the Camp again. Because, you know, as I did earlier the 18 day before, I just looked around and checked things out. 19 Q: Okay. Did you go to the beach? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And both at the Provincial Park and 22 the beach in front of the Army Camp? 23 A: I may have been to the Park two (2) 24 or three (3) times that day, you know, I was just driving 25 around. I had my vehicle there and was just riding
361 around looking at things, you know, looking at the land 2 that was stolen. 3 Q: And the -- in the evening of 4 September the 6th, were you in the Park when it -- early 5 in the evening, do you recall? 6 A: September the 6th? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Yes, I was -- like I said, I was back 9 and forth, you know. 10 Q: And, did you observe an incident 11 involving Stewart George? Do you know who Stewart George 12 is? His name -- his nickname is Worme? 13 A: Yes. Yeah. 14 Q: And do you know a Gerald George, 15 whose nickname is Booper? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And the -- did you see Gerald George 18 on the evening of September 6th? 19 A: I didn't -- I didn't recognize him, I 20 didn't know it was him, but I heard it -- heard it was 21 him, I didn't see him in the car, or I guess he was in 22 the car. 23 Q: Can you just tell us what you saw? 24 A: I just arrived and I guess there was 25 a argument, confrontation out there, I guess, between
371 them. I don't know what was going on, I just got there, 2 and I just got the tail-end of it, and Worme gave him a 3 shot in the head, I believe. 4 Q: And, when you got there, you were 5 inside the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you were -- how far away were you 8 from the incident where Stewart George and -- was 9 standing? 10 A: I was in -- I was right up to my 11 vehicle, I was back by the -- there was a row of trees 12 and I was quite a ways away, I'd probably say, I don't 13 know, probably the length of this building, you know, I 14 mean this room here, you know. 15 Q: So -- 16 A: Or at least here to the doors over 17 there, maybe further. 18 Q: So all you saw was Stewart George 19 appear to hit someone and you didn't see who he hit? 20 A: No, I didn't. I had just heard later 21 that it was Gerald. 22 Q: And where were the -- where was 23 Stewart? And was Gerald in a car or on foot, or...? 24 A: I -- see, he might -- I don't know if 25 they were outside arguing, but when I got there, he was
381 in the car. 2 Q: Okay. And then the car left? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And could you, on Exhibit 23, can you 5 describe where you observed Stewart George standing when 6 you arrived? 7 A: It would be right around this area 8 here. 9 Q: And you're pointing to the area just 10 to the top -- just around the sandy parking -- the sand 11 pile that's marked The Sandpile? 12 A: Yeah. Right in this area here. It 13 seemed like it was out from here, kind in the centre of 14 these -- 15 Q: Okay. If you could just describe it 16 again in the mic, Mr. French. 17 A: Yeah, right here by this sandy pile, 18 I guess you call it. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, after the 20 incident that -- when you arrived and Stewart George -- 21 you saw Stewart George out in the sandy parking lot, do 22 you recall if there were other people in the sandy 23 parking lot with Stewart George? Or in the sandy parking 24 lot, outside the Park? 25 A: I don't know, there may have been,
391 I'm not sure, I didn't paid much attention to it. 2 Q: And did -- do you recall if the 3 people outside were -- had anything in their hands? 4 A: No, I just said I'm not sure that I 5 even seen anybody out there, other than Worme. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And Worme, I didn't see him with 8 anything in his hand. 9 Q: Okay. And on the evening of 10 September 6th, after this incident, what was the mood 11 like in the Park? 12 A: To me, it was a -- myself, I was 13 still in the same mood as I was when I -- I knew there 14 was tension there, but I seen the tension building as, to 15 what I didn't like, was a division. 16 And it seemed to me that they were feuding 17 amongst -- the feud was amongst both tribes -- you know, 18 the -- see them out there every day, I didn't know there 19 was a difference, I didn't know Stoney and Kettle Point 20 was two (2) different reservations. I thought it was one 21 (1) -- one (1) reservation. 22 Q: You saw -- you understood it to be 23 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation -- one (1) 24 reservation? Even though -- 25 A: Well, as a young fella, I just knew
401 Kettle Point, I didn't, you know, it was years down the 2 road that I found out that Stoney Point even existed, you 3 know? 4 Q: But on the evening of September 6th, 5 did you observe feuding inside the Park or was this 6 something that you just heard about? 7 A: Repeat that again, please? 8 Q: I'm just talking about the mood in 9 the Park on the evening of September 6th. 10 Q: My mood? 11 A: The -- the mood of the people, were 12 they -- 13 Q: I can't -- I can't speak for anybody 14 else's mood, I'll speak for my own mood. And I said that 15 I was in a mood that -- that was starting to get to me a 16 little bit because I seen a division there amongst the 17 two (2) -- the Kettle Point and -- the Stoney Point 18 people. And it seemed to be affecting the negotiations 19 somehow. I don't know what -- what was going on. 20 Q: And you said there was rise -- there 21 was tension on the evening of September 6th? Why was 22 there tension? Why do you think there was tension? 23 A: Well, first of all, we just about got 24 run over by a damn police cruiser and then -- 25 Q: This is the next night?
411 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And then -- and then this stuff 4 happens. Like, I didn't see, I don't know what -- what - 5 - what they were talking about. I don't know, I presume 6 it had something to do with us being in the Park or the 7 Camp, whatever. I don't -- and I wasn't involved in 8 those talks. I had no part, it was none -- none of my 9 business. 10 It was -- I was -- I was there -- I'm glad 11 I was there, now that it's over with, but at the time I 12 wasn't too happy about being there, you know. It -- 13 because I seen the way things were going on, you know? 14 Q: And why didn't you leave if you 15 weren't happy being -- 16 A: I wasn't -- I didn't think -- I 17 didn't know if I'd be safe leaving, actually, to be 18 honest with you. 19 Q: And why did you think you wouldn't be 20 safe leaving, Mr. French? 21 A: Well, all I seen was, you know, I 22 didn't see another civilian other than, you know -- all 23 we seen from the time I got there was nothing but 24 bluecoats, you know? 25 Q: And by "Bluecoats" you mean police
421 officers? 2 A: I guess that's what you'd call them. 3 They -- that's what -- that's the profession that they 4 want to carry but it sure is no damn profession to me. 5 Q: And can you tell us what happened on 6 the evening of September 6th later on in the evening? 7 Did you see Cecil Bernard George at the 8 Park? 9 A: Yeah, he came into the Park. 10 Q: And can you tell us -- can you recall 11 when that was that Cecil Bernard George came to the Park? 12 A: Oh, I think it was right around 13 sunset, or just before sunset or maybe even -- I think it 14 was just before sundown. 15 Q: And did you -- what happened? Where 16 did Cecil Bernard George come from? 17 A: Oh, I have no idea, I never asked 18 him. It was none of my business -- 19 Q: Well, where did you -- where did you 20 see him? Was he inside the Park when you saw him or 21 outside on the sandy parking lot, or where was he? 22 A: No, he came in the Park; I spoke with 23 him briefly, you know, and said, Hello, and he was a 24 little -- he was a little nervous. I seen that in him 25 and, you know, I -- all I could tell you is, you know, he
431 wasn't himself, you know? I knew Slippery a long time 2 and, you know -- 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: I said I knew Slippery a long time 5 and I knew his actions, you know, and he wasn't acting, 6 you know, himself, you know, like he was nervous. 7 Q: And did he say anything to you about 8 the Ontario Provincial Police or did you hear him say 9 anything about the Ontario Provincial Police? 10 A: He wasn't really speaking to me 11 directly, he was talking more to his -- his relatives 12 that were there, but I overheard that -- that they were 13 coming in, you know, they were coming in to, I guess, to 14 arrest us or do something with us -- kill us or 15 something. 16 Q: And do you recall whether or not 17 Cecil Bernard George had some walkie-talkies or a scanner 18 with him? 19 A: I -- I heard about it, I'd heard. 20 Never paid much attention to -- I never seen him talking 21 on one, you know. 22 Q: So you -- you -- 23 A: I think he did, yeah, he did have one 24 in his hand, yeah. I think -- I mean its years ago what 25 I'm tell -- what I'm telling you here. Or its going to
441 be hearsay because I hear he was giving them out and I 2 didn't get one. I didn't ask for one and -- 3 Q: And you didn't see him giving them 4 out? 5 A: No, I never seen him giving them out, 6 no. 7 Q: And did you observe Cecil Bernard 8 George go down the East Parkway Drive -- down -- on the 9 evening of September 6th? 10 East Parkway Drive is the road that leads 11 directly west from the Park. 12 A: I didn't see him go out. I heard 13 somebody say that he may have went out. But I think 14 that's all I heard was a bunch of banging going on and 15 the bluecoats were pounding on their chests and their -- 16 all their armour, making a bit racket and I think he went 17 to meet them. 18 Q: And you can tell us, where were you 19 when you heard the noise from the police officers? 20 A: I was still back by my truck, but I 21 was standing in front of it -- I'm going to speak up 22 okay. Yeah, okay, let's get rid of this damn thing. 23 Q: No, it has to be recorded, Mr. 24 French. 25
451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Can you tell us, in your own words, 4 what happened when -- you were inside the Park on the 5 east side of the fence line in the parking lot, you'd 6 parked your truck, you heard the police officers coming 7 down. 8 When did you observe the police officers 9 at some point? Did you see them? 10 A: I guess they were police officers. 11 They had blue -- they were all dressed and covered up -- 12 big shields, like soldiers pounding at them and making a 13 racket and they -- crazy. 14 Q: And can you describe the -- they had 15 shields, did they -- what else did they have on? 16 A: Helmets, gloves. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: I didn't pay attention how they were 19 dressed that much it's all I seen. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: I know they were covered up a little 22 more than we were. 23 Q: Yes, and what did -- tell us what 24 happened. The police officers were coming -- they came 25 down the road. Did they come into the sandy parking lot?
461 A: Yes. No, I don't know. Yeah, I 2 think they did, yeah. Yeah, they did, yeah. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: And that's when we were -- we went 5 out to meet them. Well, everybody went out to meet them, 6 greet them, I guess. 7 Q: Oh -- 8 A: Welcome them. 9 Q: So that when the police officers 10 first came into the sandy parking lot, were there people 11 outside the sandy parking lot, as you recall when they -- 12 the police officers entered the sandy parking lot? 13 Did you see anybody outside the fence when 14 they first arrived? 15 A: No, I didn't see anybody out there 16 when they arrived -- I heard Slippery went out there, you 17 know. And then I don't -- I'm not sure what time frame 18 there or, you know, where it was. It was kind of a -- 19 you know, a little commotion there, you know, I mean 20 everybody, you know, what do you do? 21 Q: So that you heard -- did you see 22 Bernard George go out into the sandy parking lot? 23 A: No, somebody just told me that he 24 went out -- went out there. 25 Q: And after he went out, do you -- do
471 you recall anything of what the police did prior to 2 Bernard George going out -- you being told Bernard George 3 went out into the parking lot? 4 A: I know there was a -- I know there 5 was a commotion. I don't know if you'd call it a fight 6 or not, I mean, it wasn't much of a fight. It didn't 7 seem like it lasted long enough to be called a fight, 8 because they took off running, you know, real fast, you 9 know, and I guess that's when they took Slippery with 10 them. 11 That's what I, you know, that's the way I 12 understand it happened. That's the way I think it 13 happened. 14 Q: Yeah -- 15 A: I -- I -- I -- if yous have a 16 different view, but I -- then you have to explain that 17 me, but that's what I think happened, that when they took 18 off running they took Slippery with them. 19 Q: Yeah, I'm just trying to ask you, Mr. 20 French, what you saw on the evening of September 6th as 21 you can -- 22 A: That's what I saw. 23 Q: -- remember today. 24 A: That's what I -- that's what I -- 25 that's what I saw.
481 Q: Did you go out into the sandy parking 2 lot? 3 A: Yeah. By time I got out, everybody 4 was -- they were retreating. 5 Q: Who -- the police were retreating? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And did you observe people with 8 sticks and stones in their hands? 9 A: I wasn't paying attention to guys on 10 the -- on Anishnaabe people, I was paying more attention 11 to what the -- what the Bluecoats had in their hands, you 12 know, and their weaponry. 13 Q: And, during that evening, what was 14 the lighting like, after it got dark? 15 A: Poor to nil, I mean, you know, I 16 mean, I think somebody had a car light on, I believe. 17 Q: And was there -- were there any fires 18 inside the Park? 19 A: Yeah, I think there was a fire up by 20 the gate there, I believe. 21 Q: By the -- 22 A: Inside, you know. 23 Q: Inside the Park on the turnstile, by 24 the gate or turnstile? 25 A: Yeah.
491 Q: And can you tell us, was it at the 2 gate or at this turnstile or somewhere in between? 3 A: I'm not -- not totally sure if it was 4 outside the gate or inside the gate. I believe it was 5 back inside the gate, kind of to the right, it would be 6 to the -- to the west, I guess, of the gate, I believe. 7 Q: Well, if it would be inside the gate 8 it would be east. But it was inside the Park? 9 A: Yeah, I believe it was, yeah. I'm -- 10 Q: And did you observe any other fires? 11 Did you observe a fire up by the -- up by the beach on 12 the top of the block by the beach? 13 A: No, I never -- I don't pay attention 14 to that. 15 Q: So, can you tell me what -- you said 16 that you went out into the sandy parking lot, you saw the 17 police officers going down East Parkway Drive, did you 18 observe a school bus in the parking lot that evening? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And can you tell us what you saw the 21 school bus doing? 22 A: Well, after, when it drove out, it 23 drove out down the road, down the road. 24 Q: Did you see how far it went down the 25 road?
501 A: I didn't go very far, it went maybe, 2 I don't know, I'm guessing fifty (50), a hundred (100) 3 yards, maybe, I don't know. 4 Q: And where did -- where were you on 5 location -- where were you in relation to the school bus 6 when you were in the sandy parking lot? 7 Were you on the north side of it, the 8 south side of it, in front of it, behind it? 9 A: I was on the lake side of it. 10 Q: And how fast was the school bus 11 going? 12 A: Not -- not that fast, because it 13 didn't really leave. There was some of us walking or 14 running or whatever and it didn't really get away from 15 us, so it wasn't going, you know, forty (40) or fifty 16 (50) mile a hour or anything like that, you know. 17 Q: How fast do you think it was going? 18 A: Well, I don't know, I mean it's hard 19 to say, I -- I can -- I can probably run twenty (20) mile 20 a hour, maybe twenty (20), thirty (30). 21 Q: Okay. And what -- how far -- 22 A: If that fast, it didn't even seem 23 like -- 24 Q: You can't really remember? 25 A: No. Like I said, it wasn't -- didn't
511 seem like it was, you know, I was parallel with it, and I 2 was, you know, I was keeping up with the bus, so, and I 3 was on foot, you know so. 4 Q: And how far out in the sandy parking 5 lot did you go? Did you get to the pavement? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And how far down East Parkway Drive 8 did you walk or go? 9 A: That was about it. That's where -- 10 that's -- I got out there and that's when I heard a gun 11 fire. 12 Q: And where did you see gunfire? Did 13 you observe where it was coming from? 14 A: Well, I -- I couldn't tell where it - 15 - I knew it was coming at me, let's put it that way. I 16 don't know where it was, you know, I couldn't -- I knew 17 it was coming from down that -- the way we were headed, 18 you know. 19 Q: It was coming down the East Parkway 20 Drive? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And what did you do when you heard 23 the gunfire? 24 A: Well, we -- I backed up and I got 25 behind the steel bin.
521 Q: And was that steel bin near the gate 2 to the entrance of the Park? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And had you seen the bus hit that -- 5 that steel bin on its way out of the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what did the bus do, push it out 8 of its -- out of its way? 9 A: Sort of, the bin wasn't really in the 10 way. It was just, probably, partially covering the gate, 11 you know, the way -- as I recall then. I know we were in 12 and out of the gate so -- 13 Q: By, "the gate," your meaning the main 14 gate or the turnstile? 15 A: The main gate. 16 Q: Okay. And so you went back to the 17 steel bin and what did you do when you got to the steel 18 bin? 19 A: Took cover. 20 Q: And did you observe a car go out into 21 the parking lot? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And where -- did you see where the 24 car went to? 25 A: It went down to where Dudley was
531 laying. 2 Q: No, but, the -- this was after Dudley 3 had been shot you saw a car? 4 A: I don't recall a car going out the 5 same time as the bus. I never seen it, unless it was 6 behind the bus. I was -- like I said, I was parallel 7 with the bus. 8 Q: So you didn't -- 9 A: I didn't look behind me, I was 10 looking -- 11 Q: -- you didn't see a car go out at or 12 about the same time as the bus went out? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And, so, you went back -- you heard 15 the shooting, you went back behind the steel bin and what 16 did you do then? 17 A: Stayed there for a little while, I 18 mean until the -- I don't know, I just -- just stayed 19 there because there was a lot of gunfire going on. 20 Q: And how many shots did you hear? 21 A: I didn't go there, because I -- I 22 haven't got a clue, I mean, you know, like I -- I -- in 23 my estimate, I don't know, it would be out in right field 24 or what, but I wouldn't -- I wouldn't be scared to say 25 two (2) or three hundred (300), you know.
541 Q: But you don't -- you don't really 2 know. 3 A: No, I -- I couldn't count that fast; 4 I couldn't count that high at the time. I was in no mood 5 to be counting bullet shots. 6 Q: And was there anyone with you behind 7 the steel bin? 8 A: A young fella, I don't know -- I 9 don't know who it was because he was running by and I 10 told him -- I hollered at him and I said, Hey, get over 11 here. I said get in here, better get behind this bin. 12 Q: And so he came over and got behind 13 the bin? 14 A: Yeah, but he didn't stay here, he 15 just stayed for a minute and the gunfire was still going 16 on and he took off running back in the Park and -- and 17 bullets were flying and -- 18 Q: And what did -- what happened next? 19 You were behind the bin, the young boy ran back into the 20 Park, what happened next? 21 A: I went back into the Park. I -- I 22 thought everybody had made it back into the Park. I 23 thought everybody had got back into the Park and -- 24 because I seen people going by me, so I went -- I went in 25 the turnstile and as I went through -- between the
551 turnstiles I could hear bullets hitting the trees, like 2 between it. 3 The turnstile was in between two (2) trees 4 and the very next day some guys pulled bullets out of 5 that and that's -- I guess those were meant for me, I 6 guess, I don't know. 7 Q: So you went back into the Park 8 through the turnstile? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what happened then? 11 A: That -- that was -- well, that's when 12 I heard somebody holler Dudley was down. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: So then guys turned -- turned around 15 and then that's when I seen the car go back out there -- 16 or went out, I didn't see it go out in the first place, 17 but then I seen the car there and went down my -- you 18 know, over that way they had Dudley, putting him in the 19 car, you know? 20 Q: The car that you saw was the car that 21 Dudley was being put into? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And was -- did you -- was that the -- 24 do you recall what car what -- it was? Was there any 25 markings on the car?
561 A: Yeah, it was an old -- old white car. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: It was an old white car that was 4 around the Camp. 5 Q: They -- 6 A: I don't know whose car it was, I had 7 no idea whose it was, but -- 8 Q: The -- the -- just to help refresh 9 your memory, it's -- the evidence has been, Mr. French, 10 that the car that was down in the Park was called the 11 "OPP Who" car, that had "OPP Who" on it. 12 Do you recognize it? 13 A: It had some writing of that sort on 14 it, yeah. 15 Q: Was that the car that Dudley George 16 was put into down in the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what happened next? 19 A: They took him -- they took him up to 20 the front. 21 Q: And did you know who was driving the 22 bus, that school bus that went out into -- 23 A: No, I had no idea. 24 Q: And did you learn later who was 25 driving the bus?
571 A: I heard later on, a few minutes 2 later, yes. 3 Q: And did you -- who did you learn was 4 driving the bus? 5 A: I didn't know his name and I still 6 doesn't -- I still, you know. I hear, you know, you 7 know, but I didn't know him at the time, he was just a 8 young fellow and, you know. 9 Q: Did you hear the nickname Uga? 10 A: Yeah, I think that's it. 11 Q: Is that the name of the person that 12 you think was -- 13 A: Yeah. Yeah. 14 Q: And did you -- were you told anything 15 about the young man who was driving the bus? 16 A: Yeah, I heard he was wounded. 17 Q: And what did you do after the -- 18 Dudley George was taken out of the Park? Did you stay in 19 the Park or go to the built-up area? 20 A: I stayed at the Park. 21 Q: And how long did you stay in the 22 Park? 23 A: I estimate two (2) three (3) hours 24 maybe. A couple of hours, I'm not sure. 25 Q: And -- and where were you when you
581 heard that Dudley George had passed away? 2 A: I was still at the Park. 3 Q: And prior to this point in time on 4 September -- on September 6th, did you see any firearms 5 in the Park? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And on the evening of September 6th, 8 did you see any firearms in the hands of the people that 9 you were with in the Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: In the morning of September 7th prior 12 to the point you heard that Dudley George had died, did 13 you observe any firearms in the Park in the hands of the 14 people you were with? 15 A: Still none. No. 16 Q: No? And what happened after you 17 heard that the group in the Park heard that Dudley George 18 had died? 19 A: Well, everybody became very upset. I 20 mean, you know. 21 Q: And did -- were you around the Park 22 store at -- 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: And were you there when the Park 25 store was burned?
591 A: Yes, I was. 2 Q: And did you participate in that? 3 A: No, but I was glad to see it go. I 4 was glad to see anything. 5 Q: And why were you glad to see it go, 6 Mr. French? 7 A: Because I was angry. I was pissed 8 off. 9 Q: And did you see the gatehouse -- did 10 you ever see the gatehouse by the main -- on the -- from 11 the main entrance to the Park? It was a brown building. 12 A: I -- I probably seen -- I know what 13 it looked like, I remember it, yeah. 14 Q: And did you see it burn that evening? 15 A: No, I didn't pay much attention I 16 can't. 17 Q: And after the -- after the store was 18 burned, did -- what did you do? 19 A: I think I went back up to the front, 20 up to the -- up to the Camp. 21 Q: The built-up area? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And then you stayed there for the 24 balance of the night? 25 A: Yeah.
601 Q: And what -- after daybreak did 2 anything significant happen? 3 A: Yeah, we had some brothers, sisters, 4 comrades, whatever you want to call them, come in which 5 we were glad to see, I mean, you know. 6 Q: And these were people who marched 7 down, walked down Highway 21 from Kettle and Stony Point 8 First Nation? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And why were you glad to see them, 11 Mr. French? 12 A: Because we had no idea what -- what 13 the next move was going to be and there was only -- at 14 the time there didn't seem to be -- it seemed we were 15 outnumbered thirty (30) or forty (40) to one (1), you 16 know, maybe more. I have no idea what it was, you know. 17 Q: And when you were in the Park and the 18 confrontation took place with the police on the evening 19 of September 6th, how many members of the group that you 20 were with were in the Park? How many were there of you? 21 Do you recall? 22 A: Well, I didn't hold their hands. I 23 wasn't staying right beside them. We were separated. We 24 were all over the place, you know, I mean, you know. I 25 was -- everybody was, you know, chumming around with
611 everybody else, you know. I mean, you know, anybody -- 2 Q: So you're not certain how many people 3 were there on the inside of the Park? 4 A: On the inside of the Park? 5 Q: Yeah. In the group of people that 6 were at the Park or out in the sandy parking lot -- 7 A: Oh, okay. 8 Q: We're just trying to find out how 9 many people -- 10 A: Okay, I thought you meant the guys 11 that I went down there with. 12 Q: No, no, no. 13 A: Oh, okay. 14 Q: I'm just trying to find out, at the 15 point when the confrontation started with the police 16 officer, how many people were in the Park that were non- 17 police officers in and around the Park? 18 A: Oh, I'm guessing twelve (12) to -- 19 twelve (12) to fifteen (15). 20 Q: And were there any -- at this point 21 in the evening were there women and children in the Park? 22 A: There was a few women and I -- I 23 think there was some children, a couple -- two (2) to 24 three (3) children running around. 25 Q: And do you know how many police
621 officers -- can you recall how many police officers you 2 observed in the sandy parking lot or coming down East 3 Parkway Drive? 4 A: Oh, I don't know. Depending how much 5 -- how big they were, I guess. I don't know. They had 6 the road covered anyway, I mean, you know, the width of 7 the road and -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: I don't know how many rows there was. 10 There was, you know, like, I don't know, I looked at the 11 front row and, you know, I seen them coming, heard them 12 coming and making a noise like, I don't know what that 13 racket was for. 14 Q: And the -- the morning of September 15 7th, did you go back down to the Park? 16 A: Yeah, I -- I was probably there two 17 (2) or three (3) times going back and forth. 18 Q: Did you go down -- did you go down 19 East Parkway Drive to the Ministry of Natural Resources 20 parking lot? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? 23 A: I was out in the -- 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: Oh, you're talking about out down the
631 road, down the -- 2 Q: Down the road? 3 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't go down 4 there. 5 Q: And how long did you stay at the Army 6 Camp after September 7th? 7 A: Til the day we buried Dudley. 8 Q: And then you left? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And have you been back since? 11 A: Never. 12 Q: No? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And -- excuse me for a minute -- 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, one (1) of the things that the 19 Commissioner has to do, Mr. French, is -- one (1) of his 20 tasks is to make recommendations to try to avoid violence 21 in circumstances such as this in the future. 22 And is there anything that you would like 23 to tell the Commissioner with respect to recommendations 24 or is there anything else you would like to tell the 25 Commissioner before I'm finished with your examination?
641 A: Well, I don't know. I mean, you 2 know, recommendations, like I said, I was a -- a 3 councillor for -- involved in politics for twelve (12) 4 years. And I -- I've seen recommendations, resolutions 5 that would probably fill a forty (40) foot trailer -- a 6 fifty-three (53) foot trailer. And God knows where they 7 are, they're probably in that trailer somewhere. 8 And my main -- my biggest -- what the -- 9 what the Canadian Government has to do here is, they have 10 to get racism out of politics. There's racists all 11 through the world, that we can live with. We can live 12 with that in restaurants, bars, and on the street. 13 That's something everybody has to live with. 14 But when you have it in politics and 15 you're dealing with the minority groups, then it has to 16 go. It has to get out of politics. You've got to start 17 -- political people have to get the hell out of there if 18 they're prejudiced against anyone that they have to deal 19 with. 20 Q: Is there anything else you would like 21 to say, sir? 22 A: No, not -- you know, I mean I'd like 23 to see -- I'd sure like to see the land returned to the 24 rightful owners without any more bloodshed over it. And, 25 you know, and I'd like to think that Dudley died for a --
651 for a reason that he believed in and not something that's 2 going to be ten (10) -- fifteen (15) years down the road 3 from now sitting in the same damn boat as you are today, 4 sitting here trying to make recommendations yet. 5 And these recommendations that you're 6 making today or whenever you make them, be halfway in the 7 trailer and you're going to bury them with some more 8 recommendations, no, I don't want to see that shit. You 9 know, I mean, I want to see -- Dudley died for a reason, 10 at least someone should have the balls enough to -- to -- 11 in a politics -- in politics I'm talking about, 12 politicians, they're racist son-of-a-bitches. 13 Excuse me, I got to -- 14 Q: Thank you very much. We'll have a -- 15 perhaps we'll have a break now, Mr. French. 16 A: Okay. Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will have 18 a break now. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 22 for fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 10:17 a.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 10:33 a.m.
661 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 4 we begin, I had one (1) additional question I wanted to 5 ask Mr. French. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Prior to September 1995, Mr. French, 9 had you attended at other, or at protests, or 10 occupations, by members of the First Nations? 11 A: Yeah, I've been at a few, yeah. 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: Yeah, I've been at a couple here and 14 there, yeah. 15 Q: And -- and why did you go to those 16 occupations or protests? 17 A: Well, one (1) was for Leonard 18 Pelletier, another man wrongfully convicted. 19 Q: Yes. You went to show your support? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Those are my questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Can you tell us what were the most
671 significant protests or occupations that you went to, 2 either -- the Leonard Pelletier matter? 3 A: I went to a few on his -- on his 4 behalf, Toronto, Washington, DC. I can't recall them, 5 you know, it's been years ago, you know. 6 Q: Okay. And any other ones that you 7 can recall? 8 A: There was a -- I had one in 9 Aquasasnee, Aquasasnee in New York, I happened to be 10 there, the wrong place at the right time, I guess. 11 Q: And did you go to Oka? 12 A: I was in Oka. I wasn't at -- I 13 wasn't in Oka when the -- when they -- when they, 14 whatever -- whatever happened there, but I went down 15 afterwards to show support and took food. 16 Q: Any other significant? 17 A: No, not, no, not the -- a few little 18 demonstrations here and there. 19 Q: Thank you. And thank you very much, 20 Mr. French, for attending. My Friends will have some 21 questions for you. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And who's next? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're trying 24 to find out how much Cross-Examination there might be 25 now, Mr. French, so I'm going to ask, if anybody intends
681 to Cross-Examine Mr. French would you, please, stand up 2 and give us an idea of how long you might be? 3 Okay, Mr. Klippenstein? 4 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Perhaps five 5 (5) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 7 minutes. And Mr. Rosenthal...? 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About one (1) 9 minute, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About one 11 (1) minute, that's going to be a record. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Don't hold me by 13 the second. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 15 Roland is next? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Less than an hour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Less than an 18 hour? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 21 Hourigan...? 22 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Five (5) minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 24 minutes. And that's it? And Mr. Ross, who may have, or 25 Mr. Scullion, who may have some questions as well. So
691 let's start. Mr. Klippenstein...? 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 4 Q: Mr. French, I'm one (1) of the 5 lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George, and for brothers 6 and sisters of Dudley George, and I'd like to ask you a 7 few questions. 8 We've heard evidence in this Inquiry about 9 a Treaty in 1828 which identified a reserve at Stoney 10 Point -- 1827, I apologize, which treaty identified a 11 reserve at Stoney Point that was roughly square and went 12 up from the lakeshore all the way to Highway 21 and 13 included all the lands that later became the Army Base 14 and the Provincial Park. 15 And we've heard evidence that in that 16 treaty the British Crown promised that that Stoney Point 17 reserve would be Indian land forever. 18 Would you agree with me that if the Crown 19 had honoured that treaty promise, the violence that you 20 saw on September 5th and 6th, 1995 at Ipperwash, would 21 have been avoided? 22 A: Most -- most definitely. I can't say 23 I wouldn't be anywhere else if the -- else places though 24 -- plenty of those treaties around. 25 Q: Let me ask something else about what
701 you saw and heard on September 5th and 6th. You had 2 quite a few occasions on September 5th and 6th, 1995 to 3 see and hear quite a few police officers in various 4 settings and various activities. 5 Based on what you saw and heard, did any 6 of the officers in anything they said or did at 7 Ipperwash, on September 5th or 6th, 1995, seem to you to 8 have any awareness of treaty promises made to natives at 9 Stoney Point? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Thank you, I have no further 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 Mr. Rosenthal...? 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Good morning, Mr. French. 18 A: Morning. 19 Q: My -- my name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm 20 representing some of the descendants of Dan and Melva 21 George at this Inquiry under the name Aazhoodena and 22 George Family Group. 23 Now, sir, one (1) thing I wanted to ask 24 you about was on September 6th, 1995, the night that 25 Dudley was killed, before the confrontation -- the actual
711 confrontation, did you see police officers before they 2 marched down the road that night? Did you see them in 3 the bushes or anywhere else? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Can you -- can you tell us as best 6 you recollect what you saw and approximately time it was, 7 sir? 8 A: I seen them up on the -- let me point 9 it out, this is where I seen -- I guess people seen them 10 all over the place, but I seen them up where this -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take the 12 microphone. 13 THE WITNESS: I seen them up there, here, 14 in this area. Up -- there was, like, a hill here, a 15 mound and they were up in -- up in here, over in here -- 16 all along these bushes here. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: I see. And approximately how much 20 before the final -- the confrontation was that, that you 21 saw them? An hour or two (2) or more? 22 A: Yeah. Yeah, approximately. I, you 23 know -- I -- I came and -- I came and went, you know, and 24 I just, you know, I seen them there, you know. 25 Q: Was it already dark when you saw them
721 there, or getting dark? 2 A: It was -- it was sunset, around 3 there, yeah. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: Getting dark, yes. 6 Q: Okay. I want to thank you very, very 7 much for your testimony and your insistence that we 8 shouldn't have too many more recommendations, we should 9 have some action. Thank you very much, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 11 Rosenthal, did you want to verbalize the places that he 12 indicated on the map that he saw because it wouldn't be 13 on the record unless you did. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Your 15 Honour. That -- that would be very appropriate. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: Sir, could you, again, point to the 19 places where you saw the officers and then I will try to 20 describe it on the map so that the -- the transcript will 21 have that in the record as Mr. Commissioner suggested. 22 A: Yeah, right in this area here by the 23 -- on the bend going towards the lake. 24 Q: Okay. So, wait a second. Now, the 25 first area you pointed to, then is, in the map that's P-
731 23, it's right -- 2 A: What is this? 3 Q: -- right near the first driveway 4 there; is that correct? 5 A: There's a house here, right? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Is there a house there? 8 Q: Yes, I believe that -- that's a 9 cottage. 10 A: Right up in this area here, the 11 bushes there, and over here and over here. 12 Q: So the bushes, a little bit to the 13 east of the -- the first -- the nearest cottage to the 14 sandy parking lot. That's the first location. And 15 what's the next location, sir? 16 A: Down past the laneway and over in 17 this area here on -- this is the road here, over in here 18 I guess. What's this? Oh, that's just the road. I 19 don't know. Some of these lines are -- mean anything. 20 Q: Okay. So, sorry the second location 21 that you described was to the west of that driveway then 22 and further down towards the -- towards -- well somewhat 23 further -- further south and further west, slightly 24 further south and west from the earlier location on the 25 other side of the driveway.
741 And the third location you've described is 2 down on the other side of East Parkway Drive. In other 3 words south of East Parkway Drive just a little bit west 4 of the bend; is that correct, sir? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And in each of these locations, can 7 you give us a rough idea as to how may officers you saw 8 or? 9 A: I wasn't -- then again, I don't know. 10 I don't know. There was movement, you could see, you 11 know, movement, I don't know. 12 Q: okay. 13 A: Maybe a dozen, a couple dozen, I'm 14 not 15 sure. 16 Q: Thank you very much, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Mr. Roland...? 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: Good morning, Mr. French. My name is 22 Ian Roland and I act for the Ontario Provincial Police 23 Association. 24 Q: Let me ask you some questions. First 25 of all, picking up from where Mr. Millar left off, you
751 said you had some involvement in some other Native 2 protests. We heard from the evidence from Marlin Simon 3 that you'd been involved in some other protest. 4 Do you know Marlin Simon? 5 A: Yes. Yes, I do, yes. 6 Q: And you know him as -- as a Stoney 7 Pointer who was an occupier in September in '95 and prior 8 to that? 9 A: '95, yeah. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Not prior to it, no. 12 Q: And -- and he told us in evidence 13 that you were at Wounded Knee in 1973. Were you at 14 Wounded Knee? Now he said he was at Wounded Knee. 15 That's -- well the Pelletier -- was --there was -- there 16 was a conviction, there was a -- 17 A: Wrongful conviction. 18 Q: -- I think a wrongful conviction 19 subsequent to that. But that arose out of Wounded Knee, 20 were you at Wounded Knee in '73? That's in South Dakota. 21 A: No. I was in Wounded Knee but later 22 on after the -- after the fact again. 23 Q: I see. Because we know that -- that 24 Mr. Pelletier was convicted as a result of the incidents 25 at Wounded Knee and you, I take it, were at
761 demonstrations involving that conviction were you? 2 A: I was -- I was at a few, like I said 3 earlier, yeah. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I was at his trial in Fargo. Fargo 6 in North Dakota. 7 Q: Yes. All right. And you -- you told 8 as well you were at Aquasasnee. Were you involved in 9 some of the demonstrations that occurred; there were a 10 number of them I think at Aquasasnee. One was closing a 11 bridge, were you involved in that? 12 A: No, I wasn't. No. 13 Q: No. And there was -- I think there 14 was -- there were some other -- there was I think a fire 15 burning of a building, were you involved in any of those? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Those matters? 18 A: No. 19 Q: What was your involvement at 20 Aquasasnee? 21 A: At the time I went down there, it was 22 for a -- a -- I then again went with some friends down to 23 do their -- they were going down to do some ceremonies at 24 their longhouse and I'm not a longhouse person so I just 25 travelled along with them.
771 And then while I was there, again some 2 hell broke loose down there that the Band office wasn't 3 getting along with the traditionals. So that was another 4 division amongst the -- amongst their people there. 5 And then there was a confrontation -- a 6 confrontation broke out over that and I happened to be 7 there at the time. 8 Q: You were there while the 9 confrontation occurred? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And were you involved yourself 12 in the confrontation? 13 A: No, not really. I -- I was with 14 people, the traditionalists -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- that eventually secured their 17 travel building and that was the extent of it. 18 Q: Is there an Ojibway Warrior Society? 19 A: Ojibway Justice System. 20 Q: I see. 21 A: Warriors, that's a Hollywood term. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: Isn't it? 24 Q: Well, we've heard -- well it may be 25 as far as the Ojibway are concerned, but we've heard from
781 Buck Doxtator, that he was a member of the -- his Warrior 2 Society, and that so -- according to him, so was Chuck 3 George a Member of the Warrior Society at Oneida. And he 4 indicated as well that Al George was. 5 Were you aware that they were members of 6 an organization called The Oneida Warrior Society? 7 A: No, I -- I've heard rumours of it, 8 like again, I said I don't -- I don't practise what 9 Hollywood teaches. That goes way back to days of braves, 10 warriors, and savages, and so on and so on. 11 And my -- I had enough of that teaching 12 when I went to this residential school that -- that I was 13 a savage, and that stuck with me throughout life and it's 14 still with me today. 15 And, because my history teacher, we had 16 two (2) twenty (20) foot chalk boards, and two (2) or 17 three (3) times a week, she would fill those boards and 18 every other paragraph, the word savage was in there. And 19 I was puzzled, at that age, why we were savages. 20 And then when I -- I never seen a TV 21 before I went there. And then after I came out of there 22 I start hearing about warriors, braves, and squaws and 23 stuff like that, and that's when I first learned about 24 them. 25 And to me, they may call -- they may
791 belong to the Warrior Society, I'm not part of it, I'm -- 2 I mean, I believe in Ojibway Justice System, and a 3 justice society. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And that's it, you know. 6 Q: I mentioned three (3) people, and 7 they were all people that you came to Stoney Point with. 8 You actually drove them on September the 5th, 1995, that 9 is, Buck Doxtator, Chuck George, Al George, and there was 10 also Gabriel Doxtator. 11 Let me ask you how you knew each of them. 12 First of all, how did you know -- when did you first meet 13 and how did you come to know Buck Doxtator? 14 A: I attended school with Buck. 15 Q: I see. This is the residential 16 school? 17 A: No. After I came out of the 18 residential school. 19 Q: Okay. And so, you've known him from 20 the time you were a teenager? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And how about Chuck 23 George? How did you come to know him? 24 A: Chuckie, I had met, they live across 25 the road right from where I live and people meet, I don't
801 know, I can't say the year, I've known him for a few 2 years, you know. 3 Q: And how about Al George? How did you 4 know him? 5 A: Al, I knew him probably a little 6 longer than I did Chuckie or Gabe, you know. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And so, the ones you 8 knew more recently were Chuck and Gabe; is that right? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Of George and -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- and Gabe Doxtator? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. Now, we've heard some 15 evidence that you were present at the beach, at Stoney 16 Point, at a meeting at the beach, the evening of 17 September 3, '95, that is two (2) days before you went 18 down with, in your truck, as you've told us, on September 19 the 5th. 20 We heard that evidence from Clayton 21 George, that you had been present with others at a 22 meeting prior to Labour Day, you said it was day before 23 Labour Day, and he recalls that you were one (1) of the 24 persons present there; do you recall that? 25 A: No, that's not true, I was not there.
811 I was -- that's a false statement. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: He must have thought I was there, 4 maybe, I don't know. Well, who's this? I don't even 5 know who you're speaking of. 6 Q: This is -- this is Clayton George, 7 it's, for the purpose of the record, it's -- it's on 8 November 8th, 2004, page 108. He put you as one (1) of 9 the persons present at this meeting, on the night of 10 September the 3rd, for the purpose of -- of discussing 11 the next step; that is, the takeover of the Park on the 12 next day. 13 A: No. No, I would -- would not have -- 14 Q: You weren't there? 15 A: I don't know a Clayton George. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And I don't know if he knows me. 18 Q: All right. And then you tell us 19 that, as I understand it, you hadn't -- you hadn't been 20 at the -- at the Camp at all in 1995, in the summer of 21 1995, prior to September the 5th, '95; is that -- 22 A: That's -- 23 Q: -- is that what you're telling us? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. So, just so that you
821 know, Roderick George -- you know Roderick George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: He testified on November 23, '94 in 4 the proceedings, at page 93 of this transcript, that you 5 were -- you had attended there to show support during the 6 summer of '95. 7 A: No, I wasn't down there. I didn't -- 8 I was -- I stated the first time I was there was when -- 9 when we took two (2) busloads down and I never went back 10 until September the 5th, 1995. 11 Q: So, he's wrong too, I take it, that-- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- you weren't there? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: I -- I'd met Roderick just recently 17 at the time of that -- that's when I met him, on the 5th. 18 So, if there was someone there that he thought was me, 19 you know, I don't know what's going on there. 20 Q: All right. And now, we know that the 21 Park was occupied first on September the 4th, the day 22 before you went down. Did you learn of that occupation 23 of the Park before you went on September the 5th? 24 A: Well, I wouldn't call it occupation 25 but I was, just as I stated earlier, that I was under the
831 assumption that they had the keys returned to them, that 2 it was returned to the people that it rightfully belonged 3 to. And I -- that's the assumption I had. 4 Q: I'm -- I'm not -- 5 A: So -- 6 Q: -- trying to get you to -- to 7 acknowledge or admit the character of it so much, it's 8 just the timing. But as -- as I hear from you in your 9 evidence, that you -- you realized before you went down 10 on September the 5th, that the -- the occupiers at the 11 Army Base had gone in and taken possession of the Park? 12 A: I -- I didn't separate the two (2) of 13 them. I had no -- I, like, I knew the Park was there but 14 I also knew later or as -- as I learned earlier on, that 15 -- that it was all one (1) parcel of land that belonged 16 to the same people. 17 Q: All right. Fair enough, Mr. French. 18 But isn't it so that the reason you went with others; 19 that is with Bob Doxtator and Gabe Doxtator and Chuck 20 George and Al George, was to give support to the Stoney 21 Pointers who had, the day before, taken possession of the 22 Park; that was why you went there? 23 A: No. The reason I went there is 24 because Isaac asked me to go there and take him there, 25 and I -- and he also told me that Dudley wanted to see me
841 sometime and come down and visit. And so, I went there. 2 Q: Didn't -- didn't -- 3 A: And then, when I got there I seen 4 what was going on. 5 Q: Well, didn't Buck -- didn't Isaac 6 Doxtator, Buck Doxtator, tell you that the reason he 7 wanted to go down there was to show support for the 8 occupiers or for the -- the Stoney Pointers who had taken 9 possession of the Park? 10 A: I can't speak for Buck, what he -- 11 what he was doing or, you know, I can't speak for anybody 12 but my own actions there. You know, like, why he went, 13 he said he wanted a ride down there and that Dudley 14 wanted to see me, wanted to visit, and that's why I went. 15 Q: I see. All right. So, all you say 16 you understood from -- from Isaac Doxtator, Buck 17 Doxtator, was that Dudley George wanted to visit with 18 you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You didn't understand that -- that 21 you were also going there to show support for those 22 persons, those Stoney Pointers who had taken possession 23 of the Park? 24 A: Well, you -- you're insisting that I 25 say I showed support, now which I did say I -- I was glad
851 that I was there to support the actions when -- when all 2 this hell broke loose. But I had -- I went there with 3 not those intentions, is what I'm saying. 4 Q: But you knew that they had taken over 5 the -- 6 A: I knew that they took over the Park, 7 yes. 8 Q: It was a pretty exciting moment, 9 wasn't it, to be able to actually physically take over 10 the Park? 11 A: No, it was not exciting. 12 Q: It wasn't a moment of something to 13 note? 14 A: It was a good feeling. It was a good 15 feeling. 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: It was a good -- it was a good 18 feeling that -- that I thought that -- that government 19 had done their justice and turned the land back to the 20 people who rightfully owned it. That's what I thought 21 when I heard that the keys were returned to the people 22 that owned -- owned the Park and that were at the Park. 23 Q: So, you -- 24 A: That's what I heard before I went 25 there, that the keys were given to the people, Glenn
861 George, I believe. I don't know who got the keys or who 2 -- who got them or what, I don't know. 3 Q: But you'd agree with me, Mr. French, 4 that this is a very important moment in time that this 5 event had occurred? 6 A: The most important moment in time was 7 when they took it and never gave it back. 8 Q: Well, let's talk about the second 9 most important moment in time, then. Isn't that an 10 important moment in time, to get it back? 11 A: Is it -- do they have it back? 12 Q: Well, you've told us that. 13 A: Does the government have it? 14 Q: That's your view of it. 15 A: Did the government rightfully give it 16 back yet? 17 Q: All right. So you didn't see 18 September the 4th and September the 5th as a -- an 19 important moment in time? 20 A: It was a -- 21 Q: As a result of this taking back of 22 the Park or occupying of the Park or taking possession of 23 the Park? 24 A: I went there, I've heard Occupiers, 25 I've heard demonstrators, protestors, none of that I
871 agree with. Them people were at home and I was there 2 visiting them at -- at their homeland. 3 Q: Now, was it -- was it Buck Doxtator 4 that phoned you up and asked you to drive him and others 5 down there on September the 5th? 6 A: Not like he phoned me. I think he 7 came to my house. I used to run a business and he come 8 along and seen me and asked me if I had time to run him 9 down to Stoney Point. 10 Q: I see. Well, did he come -- did he 11 drive to your place? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: I see. Well, why was it, then, that 14 he just simply didn't drive himself down to the -- to the 15 Park? Why was it that he asked you to drive him when he 16 had his own vehicle? 17 A: I don't think his vehicle is -- I 18 don't think his vehicle is roadworthy. 19 Q: I see. And who did he have with him 20 when he came to your business -- 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: -- on the morning of September the 23 5th? 24 A: I don't recall if he was by himself 25 or who was with him.
881 Q: Because we know that you went down 2 with three (3) others. Were they with Buck at the time 3 or did you then -- or did they come to your place or did 4 you pick them up? How did it happen that you gathered up 5 the five (5) of you to go down there? 6 A: I went over to pick Buck up at his 7 house and they were there. 8 Q: I see. And he said, These guys want 9 to go -- go along -- go along too, so, Come on, jump in. 10 I said, all right. 11 Q: So, Buck drove to your place and then 12 you drove with -- you drove your vehicle and Buck drove 13 his -- his vehicle back to your house, or his -- I mean 14 back to Buck's house? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then there were -- there -- 17 present at Buck's house there was Gabe and -- and 18 Doxtator, Al George and Chuck George and all of you went 19 down together? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: All right. And this was -- you had a 22 -- a brown pickup, is that right? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Yeah. And how many could sit in the 25 cap of the pickup?
891 A: I had bucket seats, so just two (2) 2 of us sat up there. 3 Q: And so the other three (3) sat in the 4 back? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. And we heard -- we heard 7 from -- from Gabriel Doxtator that you all had bags of 8 clothing that you took with you. Do you recall that, 9 that you took some clothing with you? 10 A: I never, no. I had to call my wife 11 and -- three (3) or four (4) days later to bring me some 12 clothes down. 13 Q: I see. So, you say you didn't take 14 any clothing. Did you notice that the others had bags of 15 clothing? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: They did? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And did that occur to you then 20 it probably wasn't just a -- a half-day visit if they 21 were taking bags of clothing? 22 A: I said I was the one going for an 23 afternoon, not them. 24 Q: So you thought you were going to drop 25 them off and they were -- and you'd stay the afternoon?
901 They would stay and you would return? 2 A: That's what -- that's what I stated 3 earlier, yes. 4 Q: Okay. Sorry, I just didn't 5 understand that. So, you anticipated although you 6 wouldn't stay, they would stay? 7 A: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And why did you understand the others 12 were going -- why Al was going and Chuck and Gabe were 13 going with you? What was their purpose in going, as you 14 understood it? 15 A: Well, there's a park there, there's a 16 beach there, there's, you know, numerous reasons. They 17 could have wanted to swim for a week, you know, I don't 18 know, camp -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: I don't ask everybody's business, 21 it's not my -- not my way. Unless they're willing to 22 tell me their business, then I'll listen. I'm not going 23 to pry into people's business. 24 Q: All right. Now, when you got there 25 to the barracks area, you told us that there was a police
911 blockade and they -- the police searched your truck and 2 then you drove it into the Park or into the -- into the 3 Camp, I should say, right? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And -- and you had some discussions 6 with -- you visited with some of the Stoney Pointers who 7 were there and you told us that you stayed that night at 8 Glenn George's residence. 9 Did you discuss matters with Glenn George 10 after your arrival that afternoon on September the 5th? 11 A: Discuss matters? I just -- we sat 12 around and shot the breeze. 13 Q: Yeah? And was -- was Glenn George -- 14 A: I -- 15 Q: One (1) of the persons you sat around 16 and shot the breeze with? 17 A: Yeah. Glenn -- there was Glenn 18 there, Dudley, Pierre, there were a few guys around. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: I didn't know too many of them. I 21 didn't know who was all living there or, you know. 22 Q: All right. And let's just stop for a 23 moment at Glenn George. How did you first come to know 24 Glenn? When did you first meet him? 25 A: Oh, I've never known Glenn for a
921 whole length of time, it was -- 2 Q: Sorry, I didn't that, could you say 3 that again? 4 A: I -- I didn't know him too long 5 before that -- 6 Q: All right. 7 A: -- you know -- 8 Q: And do you remember how you came to 9 meet Glenn George? 10 A: I think I met him at Kettle Point or, 11 you know -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- Kettle Point. 14 Q: Within a year or two (2) of that? 15 Earlier or -- 16 A: Yeah, maybe. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I'm not sure, a couple of years. 19 Q: And you said that you -- you -- 20 you've known Dudley since the 80s. How did you come to 21 meet Dudley George? 22 A: Well, I used to hang out at Kettle 23 Point, you know, once in a while. I'd go down there to - 24 - hockey, you know, we played hockey, baseball, pow-wows, 25 different activities, you know and you meet people when
931 you go out and that and you have a good time. That's 2 what they're all about, you know -- 3 Q: I see. 4 A: -- you meet people and that's how I 5 met him. 6 Q: So he was at -- 7 A: What I met him at, I don't know if it 8 was a ball tournament, a hockey tournament, or -- 9 Q: Yeah? 10 A: -- or a pow-wow. I -- I'm not sure. 11 Q: But that was when you first met him 12 and then did you -- did you develop a friendship with him 13 after that? 14 A: Yes, yes. 15 Q: And how did -- how did you then 16 interact with him? Did he come to visit you? Did you 17 visit him? How did it come that you -- 18 A: He was down to my house a couple of 19 times and Roger -- Roger George, Cribs (phonetic) and -- 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: -- a few guys and, you know, and 22 that's the extent of it. We just -- we just -- we were - 23 - we were just friends, you know, and then I'd -- vice 24 versa. We never talked, you know, other than sit around 25 and what friends do is, you know, maybe guzzle a few or--
941 Q: Right. 2 A: -- you know, or do nothing and just 3 sit back and relax, you know, and talk, you know, I don't 4 know. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Different things friends do. 7 Q: And before September the 5th, '95, 8 what was the -- the last time before that that you'd seen 9 Dudley? 10 A: It'd be a while. It'd been a -- I 11 think it had been a -- been a while -- it'd had been a 12 year -- a number -- a couple or three (3) years, 13 something like that. 14 Q: All right. So when you -- when you 15 got a message, then, from Buck Doxtator that Dudley 16 wanted to see you, wanted to -- wanted you to visit on 17 September the 5th, you not having seen him for a couple 18 of years -- 19 A: He heard I was back in Canada and he 20 wanted, you know, he didn't know I was where I was, so he 21 heard I was back in Canada, so we were back on the res. 22 and he said, Tell him to come down and visit, you know. 23 Q: I see. And did you not -- did it not 24 occur to you that the -- the request for you to visit on 25 September the 5th, since you hadn't seen him in a couple
951 of years was likely in relationship with the recent 2 takeover of the Park, that there was some connection? 3 A: No, not really. I just -- you know, 4 I just -- Like I, you know, like I -- I may sound, how 5 would you call it -- what would be the word for it, 6 stupid, dumb -- 7 Q: I think you better get a little 8 closer to the mic, sir. 9 A: I may sound a little stupid or dumb 10 on the situation but -- but to me, I thought that they 11 gave the land back and they were living there legally 12 home. And that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Go 13 take it but run whatever you want to do with it from 14 there. I don't care, man. 15 Q: Now let me just ask you a bit about 16 some of the events that Mr. Millar took you through at 17 the Park on September the 5th and 6th, 1995. And he -- 18 one (1) of the things he asked you about was an incident 19 that occurred in the sandy parking lot involving a picnic 20 table. 21 And let me ask you a couple of questions 22 about that. Do you recall that there was a fire in the 23 sandy parking lot in the location of the picnic tables as 24 well that the occupiers or the Stoney Pointers had built 25 at the time that you were there?
961 A: I wasn't aware. I thought the fire 2 was back inside the gate myself. I mean, I -- I wasn't 3 aware of a fire being out there. 4 Q: And do you recall whether or not 5 there was a tent in the sandy parking lot; do you recall 6 seeing a tent? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? All right. 9 A: There may have been, I don't know, I 10 never paid -- I don't know. 11 Q: You were there I take it in the 12 evening of September the 5th as you've told us. Were you 13 there beyond or around midnight, on September the 5th. 14 A: I think I was, yes. 15 Q: All right. Now let me ask you about 16 your life experiences with machinery. Do you -- do you 17 know how to operate heavy equipment, like front end 18 loaders? Have you done that in your -- 19 A: No, not really. I -- 20 Q: -- in your occupations? 21 A: I can drive a back-hoe or something. 22 I'm not a heavy equipment operator. 23 Q: All right. And how about trucks, 24 have you driven dump trucks? 25 A: Prior to that, no.
971 Q: No? 2 A: I can now. 3 Q: You can now? 4 A: I could now, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And do you recall -- 6 A: In case the situation comes again, 7 I'll know how to drive next time. 8 Q: Do you recall about mid -- 9 A: I'm sure it will. 10 Q: Sorry. 11 A: Which I'm sure it will. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: You guys don't give up. 14 Q: I don't think I'm going to go there. 15 Let me just ask you about September the 5th. About 16 midnight or so, do you recall seeing or hearing a front 17 end loader or a dump truck or both being operated in the 18 Park? 19 A: Yeah I -- jeez I don't know. I don't 20 really recall that, you know. I may have been -- I may 21 have been -- I may not have been there. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: I may have been somewhere else. I 24 may have been up the front drink -- getting a coffee or 25 something up in the Camp cafeteria, I don't know. I'm
981 not sure but I -- I don't recall that. I -- I recall it 2 happening, I guess I'd heard about it but I -- I don't 3 like to say hearsay, you know and so. 4 Q: Okay. That's fine. 5 A: Now let me just understand a little 6 bit about -- more about the confrontation that occurred 7 with the police on September the 6th, late at night. We 8 know it occurred around eleven o'clock at night, I think 9 somewhat before and somewhat after eleven o'clock in that 10 time frame. 11 Q: And as I -- as I understand it from 12 your evidence to Mr. Millar, that you recall the police 13 coming into the parking lot, the sandy parking lot, which 14 we see on Exhibit P-23 and that the -- you and the other 15 Stoney Pointers or occupiers because there were -- they 16 weren't just Stoney Pointers, went out from the fence 17 into the parking lot and engaged the police. 18 Is that right; that is, engage the police 19 in a fight or a skirmish, I think you called it? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Is that right? 22 A: That's what they wanted, they kept, 23 you know, as I said, -- 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: -- it was intimidation, intimidation,
991 intimidation; what do you do? I just finally gave in. 2 Q: Do you recall that the police came 3 to -- 4 A: So I went out and kicked their ass 5 and they ran. 6 Q: And you kicked their ass and they 7 ran? 8 A: No, I said the guys kicked their 9 asses. 10 Q: The guys did? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: These are the people that you were 13 with, in the Park? 14 A: Well, they wanted, you know, they 15 wanted... 16 Q: Yeah. And I take it, in kicking the 17 police's ass, you saw that they -- these other occupiers 18 with you had sticks and pipes and bats and rocks. 19 A: As I said earlier, I was only paying 20 attention to what -- what my opponents had, not the 21 people that was -- that I was sided with. I never had 22 nothing and I wasn't paying attention to what anybody 23 else was carrying. 24 Q: So you weren't -- you weren't engaged 25 in kicking the police's ass yourself?
1001 A: No, by the time I got, as I said 2 earlier, they were on the run. They were on the run down 3 the road. 4 Q: Oh, I see. So you arrived after the 5 main -- to the extent that there was a skirmish, you are 6 saying you arrived, really, at the location after that 7 had -- that skirmish had occurred? 8 A: I -- I was there, there was guys, you 9 know, a few guys went out, half a dozen, I don't know how 10 many guys went out, I don't even know if anybody went 11 out. But I know -- well, somebody did go out, I mean, we 12 eventually all went over the fence, you know. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: But, -- 15 Q: Well, what I'm trying to get at, Mr. 16 French, is, because I think you've told us now that, you 17 arrived at some stage after the fighting or skirmishes 18 with the police had already started; is that fair? 19 A: I went out into the parking lot after 20 that, I was there behind the fence where everybody was -- 21 Q: All right. 22 A: -- in the -- I was in the parking lot 23 of the -- in this here parking lot right here. 24 Q: Let's look at P-23, you're referring, 25 behind you, if you could for a moment, when you're
1011 referring to the parking lot, do we agree that it's -- 2 A: It's inside of the gate there, 3 anyway. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: Inside of the gate. 6 Q: You were inside the gate. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: So, do I have it that you stayed 9 inside the gate, you didn't engage in the skirmish or 10 fight with the police until the end of the -- the 11 confrontation with the police, which -- which was when 12 the bus, and we know, a car, came out from the Park into 13 the sandy parking lot; that's the -- that's the moment 14 you went out into the sandy parking lot? 15 A: When they -- 16 Q: Is that the -- 17 A: Yeah. That's when I heard that they 18 grabbed Slip and run back, drug him, drug him, and that's 19 when everybody went out. Or, not, I don't know, not 20 everybody, you know, I don't know if everybody went or 21 who went, or -- 22 Q: All right. Well, just let me ask 23 about -- 24 A: -- how many bodies was out there, I 25 don't even know that.
1021 Q: Mr. French, let me just ask about 2 you. I just want to see if we can get it accurately or 3 as best you can recall. 4 You've told us that you did ultimately go 5 out into the sandy parking lot from the Park, that is, 6 you crossed through the gate or through the turnstile, 7 and you went out into the sandy parking lot. 8 And do I understand you from your 9 evidence, that you did that at the same time that the bus 10 went out into the sandy parking lot; that was when you 11 went out? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. And you hadn't been out 14 into the sandy parking lot before that, confronting the 15 police? 16 A: Yeah, there was -- there was a little 17 skirmish there, you know, like, -- 18 Q: I understand others were out, but I'm 19 talking about you, were you out into the sandy parking 20 lot with the others before the bus left the Park and 21 moved into the sandy parking lot? 22 A: Yeah, I was out there. 23 Q: You were? And so you were -- and you 24 were having part -- you were part of the skirmish with 25 the police?
1031 A: Well, I didn't, I just got out there, 2 like I said, you know, I just had got out there and by 3 the time I got there, they were -- they were running, 4 they took off running. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: And they went running down the road 7 and somebody said that they got Slippery. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And then that's when, I presume 10 that's when the bus went -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- bus went down the road. 13 Q: Fine. So -- 14 A: You know. 15 Q: -- we have it that you were out just 16 before the bus came out? 17 A: Well, yeah. 18 Q: But after the police had -- had 19 retreated down East Parkway Drive? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And then, as I understand 22 your evidence, you were on the -- as the bus came out, 23 you proceeded in a westerly direction along East Parkway 24 Drive on the lake side of the bus, you described? 25 A: Yes.
1041 Q: Yes. And you -- you stayed up with 2 the bus or were you behind the bus? 3 A: I was probably at the centre of the 4 bus, somewhere in that area. 5 Q: I see. And you say you were running 6 to keep up with the bus but it -- you were able to do so? 7 A: Yeah. It wasn't going that fast and 8 I -- and I wasn't running -- I wasn't running very fast. 9 Q: And did you fall, at some stage, 10 behind the bus? Did the bus get ahead of you along East 11 Parkway Drive? 12 A: Yeah, it did, right by the -- right 13 by the -- by the road division there, where it turns. 14 Q: All right. If you can turn around 15 and look at P-23 again behind you, so that you understand 16 the diagram, because I gathered from some questions and 17 answers with Mr. Rosenthal, even though Mr. Millar had 18 taken you to it, you really didn't understand what the 19 lines on P-23 were. 20 And so, let me just help you understand 21 what those lines are. You'll see in the middle of it 22 there's a curve that goes from the bottom of P-23, it 23 goes up the exhibit and then it -- it moves to the left, 24 or west. It's a big rounded curve. You see that? 25 A: Yeah.
1051 Q: And that represents, as I understand 2 it, the paved -- the edge of the paved portion of Army 3 Camp Road and then when it becomes East Parkway Drive, 4 first on the east side of Army Camp Road and then, as it 5 curves around, on the north side of East Parkway Drive. 6 You understand that now? That's what it's supposed to 7 represent. 8 And you -- and you see the -- the line 9 that -- that is parallel to that line I've just 10 described, but to the -- on the lower part, to the left 11 of it, and then it again turns and moves in a westerly 12 direction. That's the -- you described that as the west 13 side of the paved roadway on Army Camp Road. And then it 14 turns in a westerly direction, becomes the south side of 15 East Parkway Drive. 16 So, between those two (2) lines is the 17 paved portion of the road. You understand that now? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. So, when -- when did the bus - 20 - when did the bus get ahead of you? Where were you on 21 P-23 when the bus proceeded to be ahead of you instead of 22 -- instead of you being beside the bus? 23 A: Probably right -- right in here 24 somewhere. 25 Q: Okay. So, you're -- you're
1061 indicating east of the curve in the -- the sandy parking 2 lot, just, I guess, below -- straight below the -- the 3 arrow that shows north, all right. And in that -- in 4 that area. 5 Now, did you see how far the bus went down 6 East Parkway Drive? 7 A: It didn't go very far. 8 Q: You said, I think, fifty (50) to a 9 hundred (100) yards you told us? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Is that fifty (50) to a hundred (100) 12 yards along the paved portion? 13 A: I -- I don't know. I should know 14 this but, you know, like, I -- I don't -- it didn't seem 15 like it went very far, you know, like, I mean, I could 16 see the bus, it didn't get out of my sight and, you know, 17 I could see -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: -- very -- very plainly, big and 20 yellow, you know. So, it wasn't that -- from here to the 21 doors maybe, I -- 22 Q: Now, we know in the evidence that 23 following the bus was a car, it was a brown -- large, so 24 or brown sedan, Chrysler -- a Chrysler New Yorker, and it 25 -- it came behind the bus and it went, as well, down East
1071 Parkway Drive. Did -- did you notice that car pass you? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You -- you didn't notice it at all? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. And did you notice, as 6 you looked down East Parkway Drive, that there was a car 7 that was -- had been -- that was following the bus? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And was there -- do you think -- what 12 were you doing? Was there some reason you think why you 13 didn't notice this? Were you engaged in a skirmish with 14 a police officer, or do -- do you remember? 15 A: No. The police were all gone. They 16 had took off -- they had took off running -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- down the road. 19 Q: All right. And were there a lot of 20 other of the occupiers, the First Nations people that 21 were with you, were they around you while you were out in 22 the area of the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Well, there wasn't a lot of us. I 24 said earlier there were maybe twelve (12) to fifteen (15) 25 of us and I -- I take it there was guys on each side of
1081 the bus. I happened to be on the lake side of the bus and 2 there was few, there was probably a half a dozen, maybe, 3 of us, on that side of the bus. 4 And I don't know who was on the other side 5 of the bus or -- or where anybody, you know, where 6 anybody looked. I looked back and I was hoping to see a 7 hundred (100) people behind me, but there wasn't. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: There was nobody behind us. 10 Q: All right. And when you were out 11 there at that stage did you have anything in your hand? 12 Did you have any kind of -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- weapon at all or rocks or 15 anything? 16 A: No, no I never. 17 Q: You didn't? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Had you noticed that the other -- 20 some of the other Occupiers had, for instance throw -- 21 were throwing rocks and sticks; did you notice that? 22 A: I wasn't paying attention what guys 23 were doing. Like, you know, like I said, I, you know, 24 it's hearsay if somebody said they had a club and they 25 whacked somebody with it and that's probably what they
1091 done, but I -- I was paying more attention to what, you 2 know, as to -- to Number 1. 3 Q: Well, when you were back in the Park, 4 for example, and you were -- the incident was -- I'm just 5 taking you back in time a bit before the bus went out, 6 you were in the Park and the skirmish was occurring in 7 the parking lot with the Occupiers and the police. 8 Did you notice that there were burning 9 sticks being thrown by the Occupiers from the Park 10 towards the police in the sandy parking lot; did you 11 notice that? 12 A: I don't know, you know, like, I don't 13 know, jeez. I don't know, that's -- I guess there was a 14 lot of stuff thrown, you know, rocks, clubs. We didn't 15 throw no bullets, though, they were throwing them. 16 Q: All right. Let me back you up in 17 time a little bit for the -- on the September the 6th, 18 you told us that you saw Cecil Bernard George arrive 19 earlier that evening and although, as I -- I think I 20 heard your evidence this morning, you -- he had walkie 21 talkies or scanners, you didn't -- you weren't given one? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you -- were you aware that 24 somebody, maybe it was you, called to someone at Oneida 25 to speak to them about getting the police code for the
1101 scanners; did you do that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were you aware of anybody doing that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. You -- you went back to 6 the Park the next day on September the 7th, you said, and 7 did you see -- first of all, maybe you can tell us about 8 what time. 9 Do you recall when it was on September the 10 7th you went back to the Park? 11 A: I said earlier that I went back there 12 numerous times because there was guys that came in the 13 gate that wanted to go to the Park. Instead of walking, 14 I was giving guys a ride back to the Park. I would drop 15 them off, come back, go up to the front, sit around. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: If somebody else wanted a ride, I 18 would give them a ride. 19 Q: Well, let me ask you when you first 20 went down to the Park on September the 7th; about what 21 time was that? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Was it in the morning? 24 A: Probably, I -- I have no idea. It 25 was a sleepless night. I didn't know morning from -- I
1111 don't know what time it was. 2 Q: And when you went down there, did you 3 go into the sandy parking lot area? Did you leave the 4 Park and go into the sandy parking lot area? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And did you see or look for any 7 bullet casings? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: So, I'll -- then I'll have asked you 10 two (2) questions, so let me break it down. You looked 11 for them, did you? 12 A: Didn't look for them. Didn't have to 13 look very hard, they were laying all over the place up 14 there. 15 Q: Okay. You -- 16 A: Not on the sandy park, they were -- 17 they were on the -- down the road on the -- 18 Q: On the paved portion of the road? 19 A: Yeah. Found a few of them. 20 Q: So, tell -- maybe you could tell us 21 on looking at the map behind you or the diagram behind 22 you on P-23, where you saw the shell casings. 23 A: Right in that area right there. 24 Q: All right. So you're indicating just 25 at the westerly portion of the curb where it becomes East
1121 Parkway Drive; that area? 2 A: Right here. Where that is -- 3 Q: Yeah, okay. 4 A: -- right there. 5 Q: All right. I think that's a fair 6 description of it. And how many did you see? 7 A: I probably picked up a handful and I 8 give them to -- I was with Isaac there at the time and he 9 had a bag and we threw them in the bag and I have no idea 10 where they went to. 11 Q: Okay, you were with Isaac Doxtator? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Everybody was picking them up. There 15 was bags of them, I don't know -- 16 Q: Was Isaac Doxtator collecting all of 17 them? Or was someone else collecting them as well? 18 A: I don't who was collecting them. He 19 collected some and I guess they got turned into -- turned 20 into someone, I don't know. 21 Q: Well, let me ask you, Mr. French. 22 Did -- you saw -- you said Isaac Doxtator had a bag and 23 you put some in his bag. 24 Did other people put some in his bag as 25 well?
1131 A: No. There was just I and him, 2 everybody else was walking around. I don't know what 3 guys were doing with them, pockets -- putting them in 4 their pockets or what they were doing. 5 But I -- I think everybody put them in a 6 bag I believe because they were -- at the time they were 7 -- at the time we were -- everybody was under the 8 assumption that they were going to be used as evidence 9 somewhere down the road, you know. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. And how many people -- when 11 you say everybody, about how many people were there with 12 you when you were picking these up? 13 A: Oh, I don't know, there was like a 14 half a dozen of us, I don't know who was there. I said I 15 was with Isaac and I, you know, I knew a couple of other 16 people that had came down there, dug some bullets out of 17 trees, you know, and whatever happened to those I don't 18 know. 19 Q: Okay. Well, let's -- we'll get to 20 the trees in a moment. Let me just deal for the -- right 21 now with the casings that you say you picked up and 22 others, there were some -- 23 A: I said I put them in a bag. 24 Q: Yes. I know, I -- 25 A: Why would you ask me again then?
1141 Q: -- yeah you put -- picked up and then 2 were some six (6) others of you or so that picked up 3 casings and put them in a bag. I just want to make it 4 clear, did you -- 5 A: I said I put mine in a bag. I don't 6 know what they done with theirs. 7 Q: You don't know. Okay. And did you 8 notice was there anybody else with a bag besides Isaac 9 Doxtator? 10 A: Yeah, they had a bag. Somebody -- 11 somebody else, I don't who it was. 12 Q: So there was more than one (1) bag? 13 A: Yeah. I don't know they might have - 14 - I don't know what they done with them. 15 Q: All right. And then you say that 16 there was also some fellows who went down to the Park and 17 removed some bullets from -- from trees; who -- who did 18 that? 19 A: I just know the one (1) guy by Brian. 20 I'm not sure of his last name, but he was there and I was 21 describing to him what happened and that I had went 22 through this turnstile and as I went through there, 23 bullets were hitting the trees and -- or hitting there 24 and we looked and sure enough there was bullets in the 25 trees and he dug them out and what he done with them I
1151 don't know. I wasn't interested in having them. I was 2 just glad to be alive. 3 Q: And how many bullets did Brian remove 4 from the trees? 5 A: Oh, I think he dug one (1) out. I 6 don't know, there was a couple in there. I think there 7 was a couple, I'm not sure. 8 Q: All right. And can you indicate on-- 9 A: I -- I wasn't -- I wasn't in the mood 10 for that, you know, to be describing that to anyone -- 11 Q: Let me just ask you one (1) more 12 question about -- 13 A: -- the situation. 14 Q: Let me ask you one (1) more question 15 about this, Mr. French. If you turn to P-23, can you 16 indicate on it where the tree is that you say Brian 17 removed the bullet. 18 A: Where that little X is there, where 19 the turnstile is. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So it's the -- it's the tree that 23 would be what -- immediately north of the turnstile? The 24 first one north of the turnstile? 25 A: There was a tree right beside the
1161 turnstile, right. 2 Q: On the -- on the north side of the 3 turnstile? 4 A: Oh, I don't know north, west, south. 5 Q: Well, if you look at the map you'll 6 see -- 7 A: Which way is -- which way is the 8 lake? 9 Q: North. 10 A: North, okay. 11 Q: On the north side, on the lake side? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. French, you say that 14 -- that one (1) of the reasons you stayed, on September 15 the 5th and September the 6th, is you felt -- you weren't 16 intending to stay overnight but you stayed overnight 17 because you felt, I gather, that it was unsafe for you to 18 leave; is that -- is that fair? 19 A: That's fair enough to say, yeah. 20 Q: And so it's because you felt it was 21 unsafe for you to leave because of the police presence in 22 the area that you, instead of going back to your home on 23 -- on the evening of September the 5th, which you had 24 initially intended to do, you remained? 25 A: Yeah.
1171 Q: Is that right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And did you -- did you realize that 4 there were a number of other people that left the Camp 5 area, the barracks and Camp area on September the 5th and 6 September the 6th? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you realize that Dudley George, 9 himself, left on September the 6th? 10 A: I -- I heard -- I heard he left but I 11 heard that they had a hard time getting out the gate. 12 Q: All right. So, but he left and he 13 came back, didn't he? 14 A: Who? 15 Q: Dudley George, on September the 6th? 16 A: Oh, I don't know if he left the date 17 of September the 6th, I know he left that night. 18 Q: Now, I'm talking about during the 19 day -- 20 A: That' the only time I knew he left -- 21 Q: -- before the incident, I -- 22 A: He never came back that time, he only 23 came back -- 24 Q: I understand. But you're saying that 25 you felt --
1181 A: I'm going to have -- I'm going to go 2 and run back there to the rest room for a minute. Okay? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 4 short break. Let's just take a five (5) or -- or ten 5 (10) minute break. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for ten (10) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 11:33 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 11:42 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: Mr. French, just a couple of other 17 questions. We were talking about other people who were 18 at the Army Camp and at the Park on the 5th and the 6th 19 as occupiers, leaving and coming back. And I just want 20 to take you through some of what the record shows so far. 21 We know from the record that Bonni 22 Bressette, on September the 6th, left and went to Kettle 23 Point during the day. This is -- this is during the day, 24 not in the evening, so that -- because the issue is -- is 25 whether or not you can get out of the Army Camp during
1191 the day on the 6th. 2 And you -- you've left -- have left us 3 with the impression that it's too dangerous to do so. 4 And -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 6 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: That's not the issue 8 this witness has put forward. He said that, I felt that 9 I couldn't. And it's not a question of proving that 10 people had gone in and out. It's simply how he felt that 11 day. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 And you don't want to go too far down -- 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: I won't go too far, but-- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: Did you -- did you know that others 20 like Bonni -- did you know Bonni Bressette? 21 A: I know Bonni, yes. 22 Q: Did you know that she left on the 6th 23 of September -- 24 A: I didn't -- 25 Q: -- went to Kettle Point?
1201 A: -- I didn't even know she was there. 2 Q: All right. We know in the evidence 3 that Cecil Bernard, earlier in the evening of September 4 the 6th, before sunset, came down -- came from Kettle 5 Point to the Park and then left and went back. 6 Did you realize that when you were there 7 on September the 6th, that he'd came down and left? 8 A: Well, I -- 9 Q: In his truck? 10 A: -- I knew he got -- I knew he got 11 there, I didn't know he left again. 12 Q: Now, you see, there were two (2) -- 13 there were two (2) occasions that he was there. One (1) 14 early in the evening, before sunset -- 15 A: That's when I seen him. 16 Q: And -- well, and he came back later, 17 after dark? 18 A: Oh, I didn't know he left. 19 Q: You didn't know he left? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: I thought he was there for the -- 23 Q: For the whole time? 24 A: Yeah. I thought he'd come down there 25 to -- to support his brothers.
1211 Q: And how about -- did you -- did you 2 know Tina George? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did you realize on September the 5 6th that she'd left the Army Camp and gone to Thedford? 6 A: No, I wasn't aware. 7 Q: All right. Now, finally, just to -- 8 just to understand where you stayed while you were there. 9 You told us on September the 5th, night of September the 10 5th, that you stayed with Glenn George at his residence 11 at the barracks. 12 Did others of your group stay with him as 13 well? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: All right. All -- did all your group 16 stay with him, the people that you'd come down with? 17 A: My group -- 18 Q: Al George -- 19 A: -- after I got there, my group, I -- 20 I hung out with Dudley around there. 21 Q: But that night on September the 5th, 22 did -- did Chuck George, Al George -- 23 A: Yeah, we all -- 24 Q: -- Gabe Doxtator and -- 25 A: -- we all slept on the floor in -- in
1221 one (1) of the barracks there, where -- I guess it's the 2 barracks, wherever -- where Glenn lives and -- 3 Q: Where Glenn lives. You all slept 4 there? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And did you stay with Glenn 7 from then until you left after Dudley's funeral? 8 A: Yeah. Well, no, I -- I had -- some - 9 - some of the boys from -- from home came down, from my 10 Reservation, came to Stoney and I had moved in another 11 barracks with them. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. Those are my 13 questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. Mr. Hourigan...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BILL HOURIGAN: 18 Q: Mr. French, my name is Bill Hourigan. 19 I act for Mike Harris. 20 There is just one (1) area I wanted to 21 cover with you. During the course of September 5th or 22 6th, did you see any police officers, at any point, 23 attempt to engage in discussions with the leaders of the 24 occupying group? 25 A: No, no, I didn't, because I wasn't
1231 really aware who was -- who was a leader. 2 Q: Well, that may well be, but -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- did you see police officers 5 specifically, did you see them come to the fence and try 6 to engage in discussion with leaders? 7 A: I seen them trying to engage, but it 8 wasn't no discussion. 9 Q: I see. Did you see them trying to 10 identify leaders? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And did anybody from the occupying 13 group identify themselves as leaders to the police? 14 A: Not -- not that I recall. I'd, see, 15 like I wasn't about to get involved in any discussions 16 because that was not part of my, you know, that was not 17 part of my business. I mean, that's for the Stoney Point 18 people to negotiate, not -- not me to negotiate, you 19 know. 20 Q: No, I appreciate that, sir. But, my 21 question is, did you see anybody from the occupying 22 group, identify themselves, as a leader, to the police, 23 at any point? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you, sir.
1241 A: Well, excuse me, I mean, there was 2 maybe a -- let me take that back. I mean, I think maybe 3 Judas might have spoke up and, you know, and tell them 4 that -- tell them -- telling them that about the Treaty, 5 about the land, and you know, but that's as far as that, 6 you know, that's as far as that went, you know. 7 Q: And specifically, did he identify 8 himself as a leader of the group? 9 A: No, he just spoke up, you know. This 10 is our land and that's, you know, that's it. 11 Q: And as far as you're aware, no police 12 officer attempted to identify leaders of the group or 13 engage in conversation? 14 A: No, a police officer tried to 15 negotiate, if that's what you're trying to -- 16 Q: That's what I'm trying to get at. 17 A: Yeah. No. 18 Q: Can you tell me about that? 19 A: No, I said there was none, no. 20 Q: There was none of it? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. 23 A: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. Mr. Scullion, or Mr. Ross? I know if Mr.
1251 Ross is not -- is out of the room. Are you going to do 2 it or is he? 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'll step up. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we 5 take a short break? I'm sorry, do you have something -- 6 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Sorry. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you want 8 to do? Just back up for a second. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. BILL HOURIGAN: 11 Q: Just to be clear, Mr. Millar just 12 raised the point with me. Did you see a police officer 13 try to engage in conversation, with any of the group? 14 A: No, not -- I seen them trying to 15 engage in a fight, not a negotiation. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 18 us to wait for Mr. Ross, or are you going to do it? 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: No, I can do it. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: There's no need. 22 I'll be quick, Mr. Commissioner. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 25 Q: Mr. Roland had asked you a number of
1261 questions, actually a series of questions, about the 2 group that you came to the Stoney Point with on September 3 5th; do you recall those questions? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Now, this isn't the first time you 6 had visited a First Nation, is it? You had gone to a 7 number of First Nations before? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you were always accepted at the 10 First Nation when you arrive? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you've gone with more than one 13 (1) person before, haven't you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And when you arrived at, or 16 when you came down Army Camp Road, you ran into a police 17 roadblock, didn't you? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And at that point in time, the rest 20 of the group that was in your car, or in your truck, 21 simply got out and walked into the Army Camp, while you 22 were left to deal with the police that were in roadblock? 23 A: Yes. Yeah. 24 Q: They asked you questions on what you 25 were doing, where you were going, and then let you go
1271 into the Army Camp -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- correct? And if I recall 4 correctly, you had mentioned they went through your 5 truck, or they took a look at what was in your truck? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I was shocked to see them. I had -- 9 I had no idea that they were there when I came across 10 21 Highway, I seen all them cruisers there and I didn't - 11 - I was shocked, I didn't see, you know, I seen -- I seen 12 them there and -- 13 Q: It was a big surprise to you that 14 they were there? 15 A: Yeah. I had, you know, I didn't know 16 why they were there, that's why I asked them why they 17 were there. 18 Q: Well, if I understand your evidence 19 correctly, you thought that the keys had been turned over 20 to the Stoney Point group and that the land had simply 21 been returned? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You weren't aware or you didn't think 24 that it was an occupation as it's been described in a 25 number of the questions?
1281 A: No, I don't agree to the occupy -- 2 occupation, protest or -- it bothers me to see Dudley's 3 picture in the paper every other day with the big word 4 protester underneath it. 5 Dudley wasn't -- Dudley was at home living 6 his life and they're calling him a, you know, he's still 7 alive even though he's in the spirit world. He's still 8 being put down as a, you know, that -- that's my view you 9 know what I mean. 10 Q: Yeah. You thought they'd returned to 11 their land? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yeah. And it turned out it was a bit 14 different situation when you arrived? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you put your truck in the Army 17 Camp. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that didn't leave the Army Camp 20 until you left after Dudley's funeral? 21 A: No. It stayed there for a long time 22 afterwards because I left it there for the guys to ride 23 or, you know. 24 Q: Okay. But your -- your truck didn't 25 leave the Army Camp on the 5th or the 6th of September?
1291 A: No. 2 Q: And you didn't leave the Army Camp or 3 the Park on the 5th or 6th of September. You stayed -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- in the area? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You were never interviewed by the 8 SIU, were you, in relation to these events? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Were you ever contacted by the SIU? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Were you ever charged by the police 13 with any -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- crime relating to these events? 16 A: I didn't do nothing. What are they 17 going to charge me with? 18 Q: You -- you didn't do anything and you 19 were never charged with anything were you? 20 A: I didn't do nothing wrong, no. 21 Q: You never testified at any of the 22 trials that occurred in relation to these events? 23 A: No, I never, no. I don't want to be 24 here either but you guys convinced me to. 25 Q: Well, you -- you're here under
1301 summons. When was the first time you were contacted 2 about testifying here? 3 A: Oh, I don't know, a couple of months 4 or a month back or so. 5 Q: And when you were first contacted, 6 can you share, with the Commissioner, your feelings at 7 that point in time? 8 A: I didn't want to -- I didn't want to 9 come here and sit here and have to live through that 10 night. My first -- I'm not saying that -- that I've been 11 trying to for -- no way, forget Dudley and what he died 12 for, but -- but I'm trying to put some of those 13 situations of what happened in that -- that night of the 14 6th, behind and to get them out of my -- because after 15 the first -- after I talked to these guys about it and I 16 went another three (3) or four (4) nights with, you know, 17 you know, you just -- it bothers you, you know. 18 Three (3) or four (4) of sleepless nights, 19 you know, you just roll and think about all the, you know 20 its -- what bothers me mostly on it is the -- is the part 21 that the way the actions are that -- that the province -- 22 the way it was handled is -- is just outrageous. 23 I mean, it was the most stupidest, 24 stupidest thing I ever, you know, could ever -- could 25 ever imagine, let's put it that way. I mean, you know,
1311 it was just dumb. 2 I mean, I -- I don't if I answered your 3 question. I don't know what your question was, I forgot 4 now. 5 Q: Well, I think you've covered off the 6 question. Thank you, Mr. French. Those are all my 7 questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Scullion. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we have 11 no questions in the re-examination. 12 I would like to thank you very much, Mr. 13 French, for coming here today. I appreciate it was 14 difficult and I appreciate that having to go back in time 15 to that evening was difficult but we thank you very much 16 for coming. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would like 18 to thank you as well, Mr. French, for coming and giving 19 us your evidence, thank you. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 21 22 (THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 25 Millar...?
1321 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We don't -- Mr. French 2 was our only witness scheduled for today so we're -- we 3 have no other witnesses for today. We're going to 4 continue with Mr. Tolsma on February 21st at 10:30 when 5 we come back. So we're ready to adjourn. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 7 think anybody's going to protest. Thank you very much, 8 Mr. Millar. 9 We will now adjourn until -- 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: February 21st at -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On Monday, 12 February 21st at half past 10:00. Thank you. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 14 adjourned until Monday, February 21st at 10:30 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 11:55 a.m. 17 18 19 Certified Correct 20 21 22 23 __________________________ 24 Wendy Warnock 25