11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 9th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) (np) 17 Megan Mackey ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) (np) 21 Melissa Panjer ) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 CARL OTTO TOLSMA, Sworn 6 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 12 7 8 9 10 Certificate of Transcript 245 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-163 Document 4000407 April 04/'93 Letter 4 (4 Pages) TO DND - Correspondence 5 43-004C From Maynard T. George 6 (Researcher) and Carl O. George 7 (Chief) 17 8 P-164 Document 1002409 Map of Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park and area "Welcome to 10 Ipperwash!" Marked by Witness Carl 11 Tolsma, February 09/'05 31 12 P-165 Document 2002259 OPP Letter Re: Request 13 for assistance from the Ministry of Natural 14 Resources Re: Illegal fishing, Lake Huron, 15 near Kettle Point Reserve Oct 16/'87 46 16 P-166 Document 2002643 OPP Letter May 06/'93 17 from J.F. Carson, Staff Sergeant No. 5582, 18 Detachment Commander, Reference: First 19 Nations Occupation - CFB Ipperwash 50 20 P-167 Document 2001199 Briefing note May 21 06/'93 prepared by Inspector T.F. 22 McKenna 'A' Division No. 1 District 23 Re: Native Demonstration, Camp Ipperwash 24 10:00 Hrs May 06/93 (Property of Dept. of 25 National Defence) 59
71 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-168 Document 1002409 Page 13, Map of 4 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 5 Witness Carl Tolsma February 09/'05 61 6 P-169 Document 2001202 OPP Fax Cover sheet 7 from Supt. T.C. Randall, May 18/'93 71 8 P-170 Document 2000667 OPP letter May 18/'93 9 from E.B. Beacock NO. 2156 Acting Staff 10 Sergeant Re: First Nations Occupation CFB 11 Ipperwash 76 12 P-171 Document 1006450, May 19/'93 letter 13 from Stoney Point First Nations Reserve 14 No. 43 to Ministry of Natural Resources 82 15 P-172 Document 1007802, May 19/'93 Letter 16 to Honourable Ralph Ferguson MP from 17 Chief Carl O. George and Councillor 18 Maynard T. George 84 19 P-173 Document 1007626, Sarnia Observer 20 article "Natives Seize Camp Ipperwash, 21 Wooden Building Moved On Site" May 19/'93 89 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-174 Document 2002549 OPP letter May 20/'93 4 from E.B. Beacock No. 2156, Acting Staff 5 Sergeant to the Supt. OPP Chatham re: 6 First Nations Occupation CFB Ipperwash, 7 Ipperwash Provincial Park 93 8 P-175 Document 2002607, OPP Letter May 22, 9 1993 to the Superintendent, OPP, Chatham 10 from W.C. Watkins No. 7932 re: First Nations 11 Occupation 95 12 P-176 Document 2002603 OPP letter May 23/'93 13 to the Superintendent, OPP Chatham from 14 J.F. Carson, Inspector Re: First Nations 15 Occupation 100 16 P-177 Document 1007797 May 26/'93 "E-mail to 17 Ron Baldwin, from Les Kobayashi, MNR-Parks 18 and Recreation Re: Maynard George Telecon 19 May 26/'93 102 20 P-178 Document 2002612, OPP Documentation 21 of Ipperwash occupation chronology of 22 events: 15 July '92 TO 24 May '93 109 23 24 25
91 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-179 Document 1007621 Sarnia Observer article 4 June 28/'93 "Bosanquet Wants Quick 5 Settlement of Natives' Camp Ipperwash 6 Occupation" 121 7 P-180 Document 1006004 E-mail from Jayne 8 Layton, MNR Legal Services Branch to 9 Distribution List Re: Final Draft 128 10 Letters - I.P.P. June 01/'93 11:55 A.M. 11 P-181 Document 2001235 OPP Letter June 09/'93 12 (12:50 Hrs) to Superintendent OPP Chatham, 13 from E.B. Beacock NO. 2156 Acting Staff 14 Sergeant Re: First Nations occupation CFB 136 15 Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 P-182 Document 2002536 OPP Letter June 11/'93 17 (1200 HRS) to Superintendent OPP Chatham 18 from E.B. Beacock No. 2156 acting Staff 19 Sergeant re: First Nations Occupation, 20 C.F.B. Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial 21 Park 139 22 P-183 Document 2003514 Interview Report 23 between Carl George and J.K. Potts 24 OPP August 26/'93 151 25
101 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-184 Document 2001744 Toronto Globe and Mail 4 article "Band Chief Denies Natives Shot 5 at Coptor" 154 6 P-185 Document 400325 Toronto Star article 7 "Sniper Fires on Military Helicopter 8 August 25/'93 page A10 154 9 P-186 Document 2001717 Toronto Star article 10 "Natives Cry Foul In Coptor Shooting" 11 August 26/'93 156 12 P-187(a) Photo 0326 159 13 P-187 Document 2004113 "Officer Statement 14 Report of Patrick J. Mullin OPP CIB 15 Case NO. 955-10-2003-100 November 03 16 -January '04 159 17 P-188 Document 2001810 Sarnia Observer 18 article "Police Seeking Evidence After 19 Helicopter hit August 25/'93 175 20 P-189 Document 2002488 London Free Press 21 article 'Native Trek To Ottawa To 22 Raise Cash, Profile" 181 23 P-190 Kettle and Stony Point Council letter 24 to Carl George August 27/'93 189 25
111 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-191 Document 2002460 OPP letter to the 4 Superintendent OPP Chatham from 5 Sergeant S.J. McDonald No. 4813, 6 January 18/'94 re: First Nations 7 occupation, CFB Ipperwash 198 8 P-192 Document 1010308 e-mail to Ron 9 Baldwin, from Dan Elliott, MNB- 10 Native liaison officer re: Updated 201 11 note on Ipperwash, May 27/'94 12 P-193 Document 2003357 statement of Staff 13 Sergeant K. Bouwman re: Contacts with 14 people living on C.F.B. Ipperwash, 15 November 17/'94, 1155 HRS. 218 16 P-194 Document 1003678 Sarnia Observer 17 article "Outsiders Say They're 18 Staying at Ipperwash" August 03/'95 231 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
121 --- Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Ms. Vella. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. The Commission calls as its next witness 10 Carl Otto Tolsma. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Tolsma. 12 MR. CARL TOLSMA: Good morning. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 14 the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath, sir. 15 MR. CARL TOLSMA: On the Bible. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Would you take the Bible 17 in your right hand please, sir. State your name in full. 18 MR. CARL TOLSMA: Carl Otto Tolsma. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Could you spell your last 20 name for us, please? 21 MR. CARL TOLSMA: T-O-L-S-M-A 22 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 23 24 CARL OTTO TOLSMA, Sworn: 25
131 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Tolsma. 3 A: Good morning. 4 Q: I understand that you were formerly 5 known as Carl Otto George, is that right? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: When did you change your surname to 8 Tolsma? 9 A: I'll have to refer to background 10 paper here. It was around about in '97 roughly. 11 Q: And what were the circumstances that 12 gave rise to changing your surname? 13 A: Well, for years I've been looking for 14 my real father and I found him in '95 and at that time I 15 more or less took his -- I took his last name and that's 16 what I have today. 17 Q: Okay. I noted that you were looking 18 at a piece of paper there? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Could you just tell me what's on that 21 piece of paper? 22 A: It's just my -- my wife wrote this 23 down. It's the reason for changing my name. The day I 24 found my real father and the change of name. Well, she's 25 got it down here, October 16th, '96.
141 Q: Okay. So that's to -- 2 A: She's more -- can pinpoint 3 everything. 4 Q: All right, fair enough, thank you. 5 Now I understand that you were on July 4th, 1951? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: You're married? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And your spouse's name is Shirley 10 Tolsma? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: You have two (2) children? 13 A: Tow (2) boys. 14 Q: And what are there names and ages? 15 A: My oldest one is Carl, Jr., he's 16 thirty-two (32) and my youngest is Michael and he's 17 thirty (30). 18 Q: Thirty (30)? 19 A: Thirty (30), yes. 20 Q: Thank you. What were the names of 21 your parents? 22 A: My mother's name was Barbara; her 23 maiden name was Barbara Johnson, she -- my father's name 24 was Otto Tolsma. 25 Q: Okay. And what were the names of
151 your mother's parents? 2 A: John Johnson and Mary Johnson. 3 Q: And were your maternal grandparents 4 formal -- former residents of the former Stoney Point 5 Reserve? 6 A: That would be Levi -- Levi Johnson. 7 Q: All right. Levi Johnson is who in 8 relation to -- 9 A: My grandfather's father. 10 Q: Fair enough. Did Levi Johnson hold 11 any position of authority? 12 A: Well, he was a chief at one (1) time. 13 Q: Chief of what? 14 A: Well, he was a chief on Stoney Point 15 and his father was a chief and on down the line. It goes 16 back to roughly around the 1800s. 17 Q: All right. Was your great- 18 grandfather a traditional chief or hereditary Chief? 19 A: Traditional? I can't answer that one 20 if he was a traditional chief or not, but like I said, 21 the -- the whole line of my great-grandfathers -- they 22 were all chiefs down there. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. What is your 24 current occupation? 25 A: Right now I'm unemployed. I was
161 driving school buses. 2 Q: All right. What was your occupation 3 between 1980 and 1990? 4 A: I was working as a custodian and -- 5 no, wait a minute, that's after. I was employed -- 6 employed by National Defence. 7 Q: And where you -- what location were 8 you employed at? 9 A: Well, I was at Camp Ipperwash. I was 10 what they call on the bull gang during the summer and 11 during the winter I would work for the engineers. 12 Q: How long did -- were you employed at 13 the Camp Ipperwash facility? 14 A: Roughly around about ten (10) years I 15 worked there. 16 Q: Did your grandparents, to your 17 knowledge, have a location ticket with respect to any 18 parcel of land at the former Indian Reserve Number 43, 19 which I'll refer to as the Stoney Point Reserve? 20 A: Yes. My grandfather did. He had a 21 location ticket and his father before him had a location 22 ticket. 23 Q: I wonder if you would kindly go to 24 your binder of documents, Tab 3, which is part of Inquiry 25 Document Number 4000407 and it is a letter dated Sunday,
171 April 4th, 1993 and on the third page there appears to be 2 your signature. Is that your signature? 3 A: I'm just trying to -- 4 Q: Tab 3. 5 A: Tab 3. 6 Q: And the third page. 7 A: Yes, that's my signature. 8 Q: I'd like to make this the next 9 exhibit, Commissioner. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-163. One 11 sixty-three (163). 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One sixty- 13 three (163). 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-163: Document 4000407 April 04/'93 16 Letter (4 Pages) TO DND - 17 Correspondence 43-004C From 18 Maynard T. George 19 (Researcher) and Carl O. 20 George (Chief) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: I note that on page 2 of this letter 24 is a list of homeowners in 1942 at Stoney Point Reserve 25 Number 43. That list proceeds onto page 3 with an
181 amendment on page 4, and Item 10 reflects John Johnson 2 and Mary Johnson and were those your relations? 3 A: John Johnson and Mary Johnson were my 4 grandparents. 5 Q: Can you tell me it indicates that 6 they -- they were homeowners and had location tickets -- 7 can you indicate to me what the basis of your information 8 was in -- in preparing this list? 9 A: Preparing what? 10 Q: The list of homeowners that's in 11 front of you? 12 A: Oh. It was just to show that they 13 had a location ticket and they were from that reserve. 14 Q: And where did you find that they had 15 the location ticket? What was the source of your 16 research? 17 A: Where did I find it? If I remember 18 correctly, my mother had my grandfather's location ticket 19 and another lady give me my grandfather's father's 20 location ticket. That would be Gertie (phonetic) 21 Bressette. 22 She -- she had quite a few of those things 23 and she approached me one (1) day and give me a copy of 24 it. So I -- I have Levi's location ticket also. 25 Q: All right. Thank you. Did either of
191 your parents then grow up at the Stoney Point Reserve? 2 A: My mother did. She went to school 3 there as a little girl. And I think it was in '42 that's 4 when National Defence came in and give them a time frame 5 and I think it was one (1) week to pack up and move out. 6 And they give them, oh, I forget the 7 amount, a little bit of money to move their house and buy 8 a small parcel of land to put it on. And if they didn't 9 move within that time frame, they were just pushed out. 10 Q: And did your mother tell you these 11 things? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Did your mother tell you about her 14 childhood at Stoney Point? You said she went to school 15 there? 16 A: Very little. She said she grew up 17 there, she went to school and she said there was -- when 18 you grow up some place and you're used to it and she said 19 she played with a lot of kids. They had to, you know, 20 walk a distance to go to the neighbours and she just had 21 a lot of fun when she was small I guess. 22 Q: Okay. Now you indicated that your 23 mother told you that -- that her family was given a small 24 amount of money to buy a parcel of land. 25 Where were they to buy that parcel of
201 land? 2 A: Yes, they -- they were given a small 3 amount of money to buy land. My grandfather had a friend 4 on Kettle Point which he bought an acre of land and he 5 moved the house down there. And they didn't have much 6 to, you know, put it on a frame, footing and stuff like 7 that. 8 So they just had a team of horses and 9 moved a big rock and set the corner of the house on a big 10 rock on one (1) side and then a rock on the other end and 11 built up the other two (2) corners and how the house sat 12 there. 13 Q: Do you know how much land your 14 grandfather had possessed on the Stoney Point Reserve? 15 A: No. I would have to look back on 16 paperwork and stuff like that to actually find out. 17 Q: Was the land that they bought in 18 Kettle Point comparable to the land they lost at Stoney 19 Point? 20 A: No. Because where they put the house 21 down in Kettle Point, it was put more or less like in a 22 swamp, it was always wet. 23 And my mother, she told me she says she 24 can remember living there and in the spring there's water 25 that after the snow melts and then the summer so that he
211 can hear the -- well on the swamp down here we had a lot 2 of black snakes. And you can hear them thrashing around 3 out in the water and just outside the door. And that's 4 the kind of conditions they had to live in. 5 Q: All right. So in other words the -- 6 the quality of the land was -- was worse -- 7 A: It was very poor. 8 Q: All right. Now, did your mother talk 9 about the impact that the move from Stoney Point to 10 Kettle Point had on her? 11 A: Well, she said it was very hard, 12 because when she moved to Kettle Point, a lot of the 13 people on Kettle Point didn't like people coming in. And 14 so it was very hard for her to grow up and -- until 15 probably, you know, they finally got used to you, and 16 then you made friends. Just like any place you go, you 17 move, you got to make friends, but it takes a long time 18 to do that. 19 Q: Did she ever express any form of 20 regret to you with respect to having had to leave Stoney 21 Point? 22 A: Well, she said it was hard and she 23 wished she could go back, but she always wanted to go 24 back. But until after, you know, you learnt what 25 National Defence -- all the chemicals they buried and
221 stuff and what has happened there. And it's just not 2 suitable for, you know, anybody to move back there and 3 live healthy, like. 4 Q: Were you ever told about the 5 existence of burial grounds in relation to the Stoney 6 Point lands? 7 A: Yes. There's burial grounds right on 8 Stoney Point. And there are also from my knowledge and I 9 read it in one (1) of the documents, there is also three 10 (3) -- three (3) more on -- in the Provincial Park, small 11 ones. 12 So, totally I know of four (4). 13 Q: All right, and you've indicated three 14 (3) at the Provincial Park location and where is the 15 other one? 16 A: It was, well, where the built-up area 17 is at Camp Ipperwash. It's about half a mile towards the 18 lake and I would imagine it's right -- if I had to say, 19 it'd be about in the middle of the -- the land. 20 Q: Now is this the -- is this a burial 21 ground cemetery which had a fence around it when you were 22 working at the Camp Ipperwash? 23 A: Yes. Like I said, I -- I worked 24 there and the old fence that was there, we tore down. 25 And I was working for the engineers and I was one (1) of
231 them that tore the old fence down that -- what was left 2 of it and we put up wire mesh fence around it. 3 Q: Okay. And do you recall when, 4 approximately, that occurred? 5 A: For the year, I -- I can't remember. 6 Q: All right, we know that you were 7 working there between 1980 and 1990, so would it have 8 been within that time -- 9 A: It would have been in -- in there 10 somewhere, but like I say, I just can't remember the 11 year. 12 Q: All right, and when you viewed the 13 what -- when you viewed the cemetery, did you notice -- 14 you said that the fence wasn't in good repair, wasn't all 15 there. 16 Did you notice anything else with respect 17 to the condition of the grave sites? 18 A: Well, there was a lot of, like, 19 there's a road in front of it and there's like, cement, 20 like, pillars and on top of it, it had metal ornaments on 21 there and they were shot at. 22 Like, you could see the bullet holes in 23 them and a lot of the headstones were shot at. You can 24 tell, like, there's corners chipped out of them and a lot 25 of the stones that originally was there, they were
241 missing. 2 And a lot of the stones were just 3 demolished and at that time, there was some stones -- 4 headstones that were found in London at the Military Base 5 there, for what reason I wouldn't know why they wanted a 6 headstone. 7 Q: And how do you know that there were 8 some in London at the Military Base? 9 A: Well, at that time there was -- I 10 can't say who, because nobody knows, like there was -- 11 word came that you should check London Base for 12 headstones and they wouldn't say their name. And I can't 13 -- I think it -- I think Scott Ewart was one (1) of them 14 that knew about it and I know Clifford George, he -- I 15 think he tried to go there. 16 Q: I guess my -- my question is, did you 17 -- did you find these yourself or -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- or is this based on information 20 you received from others? 21 A: I didn't find them myself, it was 22 just information based on others. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, you 24 indicated, as well, that there were three (3) small grave 25 sites that you're -- you were aware of in the Park, are
251 you able to tell us where within the Park? And if I put 2 a map on the screen would that assist? 3 A: Yeah. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. We're going to start with 8 Inquiry Document Number 2000327. And that's Exhibit P- 9 40. Now, you'll see that the Park is in the corner, the 10 top left corner. 11 Is that map large enough for you to -- 12 A: Oh, yes. 13 Q: -- place the approximate location. 14 You'll see there's a laser pen in front of you? That's 15 it. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And if you could point -- 18 A: Okay, somewhere around here is where 19 the maintenance building is. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: Right in the back corner or -- the 22 battery's gone dead in that. 23 Q: Perhaps if -- if you'd like to look 24 at where the maintenance is, why don't I put a different 25 map up for you --
261 A: Okay. 2 Q: -- and you can be a little more 3 specific. And this is P-61 and you'll see there where 4 the -- the maintenance building is marked. There's a 5 closeup map of the Park. Do you see where that -- the 6 maintenance is? At the bottom of the map there's the 7 word, Maintenance. Let me just show you. There, sorry. 8 There it is. 9 A: Oh. 10 Q: The maintenance, just to give you an 11 orientation. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Perhaps you can tell us where in 14 relation to the maintenance shed? 15 A: Okay, the -- the maintenance building 16 is roughly around there, then. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: And there was a grave site in the -- 19 if I remember correctly, it was in the left back corner 20 and then again there -- 21 Q: Of the building you mean? Where the 22 building was built? 23 A: Yes. Either it was right in the back 24 or it was built right on top of the grave sites? 25 Q: All right.
271 A: Like, it was a very, very small one 2 and there also was another one roughly around this area 3 here. It was about the same size and then -- 4 Q: And -- 5 A: -- in the camping grounds there was a 6 very small one around over here. 7 Q: And when you -- I'm sorry. 8 A: Now these are -- there was a map that 9 I came across and it was marked on it, but I don't have 10 those maps anymore. 11 Q: All right. And for the record, the 12 second grave site area was near the word, Permit, on the 13 map, the permit office and -- 14 A: Well, it was around that area 15 roughly, yes. 16 Q: Yes. And the other was near the 17 campsites? 18 A: It was on the campsite there, yes. 19 Q: I think you pointed around the Number 20 618 and 626. It's hard to distinguish the numbers up 21 there but for the record, in that general vicinity? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right, thank you. Now when you 24 say small grave sites, were these single grave sites? 25 A: No. Like the smallest one would
281 probably be around about maybe five (5), six (6) grave 2 sites. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And the other ones would be a little 5 bigger. So there might be around about ten (10), twelve 6 (12) maybe. 7 Q: And what is the source of your 8 information with respect to the existence and approximate 9 location of these burial sites? 10 A: I came across a map where it was 11 marked on but like I said, I don't have those maps 12 anymore. 13 Q: Do you know who made the map? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you receive any information from 16 -- from any of your relatives in relation to burial sites 17 at the -- at the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right, thank you. To your 20 knowledge were any of your relatives buried either within 21 the Park or Camp Ipperwash area? 22 A: As far as I know, they're buried at 23 Camp Ipperwash. 24 Q: And which relatives would those be? 25 A: That would be my great-grandfathers
291 and my great-great-grandfathers. Like my grandfather and 2 grandmother are buried on Kettle Point. 3 Q: All right. Thank you. When did you 4 first become involved in any efforts to reclaim the 5 former Stoney Point lands? 6 A: I think it was in '93 in the spring. 7 It's a long time ago. I can't recall the exact day 8 unless I went to some kind of a document. 9 Q: All right. Well, we can pinpoint it 10 more precisely. But I just wanted to have a general time 11 frame. And just for clarification what land area did you 12 consider to be the Stoney Point lands? 13 A: Like, the built-up area where the 14 Camp Ipperwash was and the Provincial Park and the 15 lakefront that would have been Stoney Point, all of that 16 was. 17 Q: I'm just going to put up Exhibit P-40 18 for you again and perhaps using that map you would 19 indicate with the laser, the approximate boundaries of 20 the -- what you consider to be the Stoney Point lands. 21 And we'll just -- just wait til we fit that inside the 22 screen. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
301 A: Now the -- from the highway, this 2 would be the highway here, and this -- the whole thing 3 like the whole map you got there would be the Stoney 4 Point lands. 5 Q: All right. And, just for the record, 6 you've indicated I believe, Highway 21 along one (1) 7 side? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The waterfront? 10 A: The waterfront, yes. 11 Q: Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And on the right what road would be 14 the approximate marker? 15 A: Outer Drive. 16 Q: Outer Drive? Thank you very much. 17 Now in front of you I believe there is a map with respect 18 to the Park Camp saying the Welcome to Ipperwash map. 19 Not that one, underneath the barracks map there. That's 20 it. 21 And just for the record I wonder if you 22 would, using your pen, mark the approximate locations of 23 the burial sites, the four (4) burials -- or the three 24 (3) burial sites which you referred to? 25 A: (INDICATING) Yes, using an "X".
311 Now, this is just roughly, it's not -- it's just 2 approximately on there. 3 Q: I appreciate that. We'll make that 4 the next exhibit, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One sixty- 6 four (164)? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-164. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-164: Document 1002409 Map of 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 12 area "Welcome to Ipperwash!" 13 Marked by Witness Carl 14 Tolsma, February 09/'05 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: All right. And I think we're 18 familiar with the fenced in cemetery that you're speaking 19 of at the built-up area. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Now, were you aware of 22 any prior efforts to reclaim the Stoney Point lands, that 23 is, efforts early -- by others earlier than 1993? 24 A: Yes. The Kettle Point Council, I can 25 remember them trying to talk with the government to
321 regain the land. But at the time they tried it, along 2 Outer Drive, that's the only part that -- I think it was 3 about maybe a hundred (100) -- two hundred (200) feet in 4 from the road there, they said that they could have that 5 back at one (1) time and because it was the only piece of 6 land that was never used. And then -- 7 Q: I'm sorry, what -- what mass, if you 8 will, of land would that be? What area? You said it's a 9 couple of hundred feet in from Outer Drive, but -- 10 A: It was like a -- a stretch of land 11 along the highway -- Outer Drive. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And like I said, it was about a 14 hundred (100) to maybe two hundred (200) feet in, if -- 15 if I recall right, and that's the only parcel of land 16 that was never used. And that was years ago and they 17 were willing to return that, but it never ever happened. 18 And another time I can recall was when I 19 was working at Camp Ipperwash there was a few people that 20 went in and they lit the -- the sacred fire and you have 21 to be there for three (3) days, three (3) nights and one 22 (1) of them I do remember was Bernard Cecil George or 23 Cecil Bernard George. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And I was working in the bull gang at
331 the time, it was during the summer. And National Defence 2 allowed it and they went in for three (3) days, three (3) 3 nights. 4 And, you know, I was riding around on the 5 truck doing my work and I looked at everything there and 6 I seen that, you know, they allowed them in and they 7 wanted them to come in and do what they have to do and 8 then they're going to leave. They didn't take anything 9 serious, they didn't care. They let them be. It didn't 10 bother them. 11 Q: You're referring to the -- the 12 Military, are you? 13 A: The -- the Military, yes. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And more or less what they were 16 thinking, let them in, let them do their thing, they're 17 gone. We don't have to worry about them. 18 Q: Now, how is it that you formed this 19 perception of that -- that impression? 20 A: Well, I watched -- I watch and I do a 21 lot of watching people and how they act and stuff. I 22 pretty well watch everything and that's the -- the idea I 23 got out of it. 24 Q: And where in the -- the Military Camp 25 were the sacred fires held, typically?
341 A: There's a portion of the built-up 2 area, it was near the hospital. 3 Q: All right. So, it's right in the 4 built-up area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It's right in between the hospital 8 and the highway. 9 Q: All right. Did you form any 10 impressions with respect to the effectiveness of -- of 11 these efforts -- the efforts by the Kettle and Stony 12 Point Band that you were aware of and the efforts by 13 individuals to come onto the land and -- and build sacred 14 fires? 15 A: Well, it's just like I -- I didn't 16 know anything about when they were going to do it. I 17 just -- like I said, when I was working there I just seen 18 them there one (1) and they stayed for three (3) days and 19 that's what I seen, that's what I watched. 20 Q: Did you observe any other forms of -- 21 of demonstrations around the Army Camp Base when you were 22 working there by people from Kettle and Stony Point? 23 A: Yeah, there was one (1). Well, some 24 of the Elders and a lot of -- lot of the youth marched up 25 and down with signs and to return the land. But that's
351 about the only one that I know of. 2 Q: All right, now with respect to that 3 demonstration, was there any type of intervention by the 4 Military or the police that you saw? 5 A: No, it was all -- it was pretty well 6 all peaceful and National Defence didn't do anything and 7 Provincial Police didn't do anything. 8 Just -- the police were there. They were 9 just mainly watching for traffic and kept people off the 10 highway and kept the traffic flowing. 11 Q: Now, you indicated that your first 12 active involvement in efforts to reclaim the Stoney Point 13 lands happened in around the spring of '93. 14 Can you tell me, what gave rise or what 15 motivated you to become active at that time? 16 A: Well, I only can speak for myself. 17 But, like I said, I watched all these things happen and I 18 watched National Defence. They just ignored it. 19 And when I was working there, I heard a 20 few of them talking and they were just saying, when are 21 they going to leave, you know, they're tired of it. And 22 -- you know, to myself, it's like they didn't care, they 23 just wanted everybody out of there. 24 And the government, they never took notice 25 and they didn't care so I just thought to myself, what --
361 what can you do to more or less shake them up and make 2 them see. 3 So that's when I talked to a few other 4 people and they felt the same about, like, what if we 5 went in? And I said naturally they're going to think 6 it's just another three (3) day demonstration and they're 7 going to let us in and what happens if we don't leave? 8 So they thought it was a great idea. So a 9 few of us talked and, you know, we talked for quite a 10 while. We just didn't do everything, just right there 11 and then. It took about a good three (3) -- three (3) 12 months. 13 We talked everything over and everybody 14 agreed and there was a small group of people that went 15 in, probably anywhere from twelve (12) to I'll just say 16 maybe thirty (30) with the children also. 17 But, you know, I was right. When we went 18 in -- 19 Q: I wonder -- 20 A: -- the guard -- 21 Q: -- I'm sorry. I'm going to -- just 22 before we get to that, I am going to ask you -- 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: -- about the initial entry, but just 25 to provide a little more detail to the Commission.
371 Who -- who did you have these meetings 2 with during the three (3) months, approximately, that 3 preceded the entry? 4 A: There was Robert George and his son 5 Ron George, Maynard T. George, Janet Cloud, Marlene 6 Cloud, and I think that was about it. 7 Q: You -- you recall whether Marcia 8 Simon was involved at this time? 9 A: At -- she may have been there now and 10 again, but not to too many of the -- our meetings we had. 11 Q: All right, and Robert George, does he 12 have -- go by the nickname "Nobby" from time to time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. All right, and did you have 15 meetings with members of the Department of National 16 Defence, in advance of this event? 17 A: Yes, we did. 18 Q: And did you attend at those meetings? 19 A: At first, yes. A lot of them I can't 20 remember -- recall, but most of them I can. 21 Q: All right, you recall how many 22 meetings -- well, let's look at Tab 3. Mr. Registrar, 23 what was the exhibit of that, the exhibit number? 24 THE REGISTRAR: 163. 25
381 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Exhibit 163. And this is the letter 3 that you've identified as having your signature dated 4 April 4th, 1993. It indicates that there was a meeting - 5 - that were topics of discussion on March the 29th and 6 30th, 1993. 7 And I take it that those were meetings 8 that you attended at with the Department of National 9 Defence? 10 A: Well, we -- we probably did. Like 11 this has been a long time ago and it's kind of hard to 12 remember, but we met with some of them there, yes. 13 Q: And was -- I'm sorry -- what was the 14 purpose of the -- the meetings? 15 A: Well, just to inform them that we 16 were preparing to come into the Camp, but we didn't say 17 how long we were going to be there. And we said it's 18 going to all be peaceful and we weren't going to cause a 19 problem for -- at that time the cadets were there. 20 Well, they weren't there yet, but they 21 were coming. And it's like they -- like I said earlier, 22 they didn't really care. They figured we're just going 23 in and then we'd be back out of there again. 24 Q: All right. Now, did these early 25 efforts focus on -- on the Military Base as distinct from
391 the Park or was this all one (1) -- one (1) and the same 2 to you? 3 A: To me it was all one (1) and the 4 same. 5 Q: All right. And were you aware that 6 the Park was a Provincial Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so why did you think this effort 9 would advance the effort to reclaim both the Military 10 Base and the Park given that you were dealing with the 11 Federal Government? 12 A: Well, I thought if -- if I could get 13 their attention, like, maybe they could, you know, talk 14 to the Provincial Government and say, Well, maybe you 15 better return this. And -- I just had an idea that I 16 wanted to try and open their eyes to do something about 17 it, that was my -- what I was focussed on. 18 Q: All right. In your view, had the 19 Chief and -- and Band Council over at Stoney Point made 20 sufficient progress in their dialogues with the Federal 21 Government in relation to the return of the lands? 22 A: Well, they were talking to them, but 23 I seen even there they weren't making too much of a 24 progress. They were -- kept being promised this and that 25 and for years they were promised a lot of stuff and
401 nothing ever came about. 2 Like, over the years they, like it gets 3 frustrating. And even for myself this is mainly the 4 reason why I got involved and I wanted to do something is 5 because nothing was moving and they kept promising 6 everything and giving nothing. 7 Q: All right. Now, the discussions you 8 had with the Department of National Defence in advance of 9 entering the Camp, did you actually indicate that it was 10 your intention to move onto the Camp lands? 11 A: Well, yes, I told them we wanted to 12 come in and we were -- we had a few trailers and they 13 said, No problem. Like, well, we didn't say, "trailers" 14 we said, "tents", but in the beginning someone brought a 15 small eight (8) foot raggedy old trailer. And the rest 16 of the people just had pop-up tents -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: -- and that's -- that's all they 19 thought we -- we had was tents. 20 Q: All right. Did you discuss anything 21 else with the Department of National Defence? I see that 22 you provided them with a list of the homeowners as at 23 1942. Why -- was that requested of you? 24 A: Well, we -- at the time we thought it 25 would have been probably the best reason to educate them
411 that this was a native reserve. And at the time it was 2 supposed to be returned after the war and -- which they 3 failed to do. So we give them the documents with who was 4 our elders, who was born there and they had location 5 tickets and more or less to say we had the right to the 6 land and we want our land back. 7 Q: Fair enough. All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I've just been asked to put the 12 document that we're referring to, on the screen so 13 everyone could have a look at it. It's Inquiry Document 14 Number 4000407 and it's Exhibit P-163. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And it is in the -- in our disclosure 19 in the Supertext database. In any event, I'm happy to 20 make an extra copy available. Thank you. 21 All right now just before we -- we move 22 onto the actual entry into the Camp, I wanted to review 23 one (1) other issue with you. Were you involved in any 24 efforts to assert fishing rights prior to 1993? 25 A: Well, the fishing rights -- I was
421 involved in that. Everyone -- a lot of us are fishermen, 2 and we made our living and -- with gill netting. And the 3 way it was suppose to be is that we have our fishing 4 rights from along Lake Huron shores from I believe it was 5 from Sarnia up to Goderich. 6 And we went up -- this one (1) particular 7 day and we lifted our nets and apparently MNR was waiting 8 for everyone to return. And they arranged a raid and 9 they got help from the States, from a few of the game 10 wardens there. And like me and my cousin, Al Bressette, 11 we'd had a eighteen (18) foot outboard alone and boat. 12 And we were on our way back home. Like he 13 was driving the boat and I was sitting on a seat facing 14 him so I seen the waves breaking oh maybe a couple of 15 miles behind us. But when you're fishing you pretty well 16 know where everyone is. And everyone was on the side of 17 us or in front of us or a little behind. 18 And at that time you -- you can't identify 19 who it is. And all I seen was the water breaking and a 20 big boat racing towards us and I told my cousin, I said, 21 we better get in fast. I said, I don't like the looks of 22 this. But apparently we couldn't go too fast because 23 they caught up to us like we were standing still. 24 And the boat got closer and we were about 25 the first ones to get caught. The boat was coming up and
431 when it got closer I seen someone standing, like three 2 (3) people standing in the front of the boat. And one 3 (1) of them had a -- a rifle pointing at us and his arm 4 was on the wind -- front windshield of the boat and the 5 barrel of the rifle was going up and down hitting the 6 waves. 7 And I told my cousin, I said, I think 8 there's a problem here. So anyway in order to stop us 9 they rammed the side of our boat and pulled off to the 10 side. And we stopped and asked him what the problem was 11 and the boat came closer. And the OPP that -- it was an 12 OPP that was holding the rifle. And he said we're being 13 charged for illegal gill netting. 14 And he told us not to move, he says, or 15 else he'll shoot. And my cousin was reaching -- he had 16 his left hand on the throttle of the outboard and he 17 reached with his right hand to turn it off and his sleeve 18 got caught in the -- in the throttle somehow. And the 19 police officer pointed the gun at him. He says, I told 20 you not to move, so. And he tried to explain and the 21 police officer just hollered over his voice, he says, 22 Don't move. 23 So I spoke up and I said, his sleeve is 24 caught. And he says, Okay, undo it. And then he pointed 25 the rifle at me and he said, don't you move.
441 And that time he was making me mad, so I 2 stood up and I said, If you're going to shoot, shoot me 3 right now. I said, get it over with. 4 And then he proceeded, he says, Load those 5 nets on our boat. I said, If you want them, you'd better 6 come and get them yourself. So he had a couple of young 7 guys on there. I -- pretty sure they were from the 8 States and they were scared. They were shaking and, I 9 told them if you want them? Come and get them. 10 So we let them take them and as he took 11 all of our nets and the fish and he says, This is the 12 last time you're going to be fishing out here. Don't be 13 out here tomorrow or the same thing's going to happen. 14 And then he took our nets and then they 15 continued -- well, they pulled away and they went after 16 someone else. And then we went into shore. There was 17 only a few people that, you know, got away, because there 18 was more than one (1) boat out there. 19 And -- but they were in closer, so they 20 head in for the rocks, the big boats couldn't get in 21 there. They hit a few rocks and they decided they better 22 turn around. 23 So there's a few that got away, but pretty 24 well everybody else got caught. 25 Q: Now was your boat searched for guns?
451 A: Guns? No. 2 Q: Did you have any with you? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Were you ultimately charged with 5 these offences? 6 A: We were charged for illegally fishing 7 with gill nets. 8 Q: And do you recall what year this 9 event took place in? 10 A: No, I can't remember the exact year. 11 Q: Would you kindly at the Tab 1, 12 Inquiry Document Number 2002259 and this is a letter 13 dated October 16, 1987 from Detective Sergeant GA 14 Matthews of the Ontario Provincial Police. 15 And it is -- it appears to be a report by 16 the Detective. You'll see on page -- at the bottom of 17 page 1, there's an indication that fish and nets were 18 seized from Alan Bressette and Carl George of Kettle 19 Point. 20 And does that help you -- help refresh 21 your memory as to when this event likely occurred, 22 approximately? 23 A: Yeah. I remember when it happened, 24 like, what happened that time, but looking at this 25 document in -- in '87, that was quite a while ago.
461 Q: All right. It indicates on page 3, 2 September the 27th, 1987. Does that sound about right to 3 you? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. Can I make this the -- 6 the next exhibit, Commissioner? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-165. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-165: Document 2002259 OPP Letter 10 Re: Request for assistance 11 from the Ministry of Natural 12 Resources Re: Illegal 13 fishing, Lake Huron, near 14 Kettle Point Reserve Oct 15 16/'87 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: And were the -- the Chief and Band 19 Council supportive of your -- of yours and others fishing 20 efforts, notwithstanding the -- the involvement of the 21 police and the Ministry of Natural Resources? 22 A: Well, we went to the chief and 23 council and right away they -- they got a lawyer and they 24 said we have to fight this, because everybody thought we 25 had our fishing rights. And everybody, like the MNR and
471 OPP, well they knew about it but they kept saying, No, 2 you don't have your rights. 3 So Chief and Council hired a lawyer and 4 represented all of us. 5 Q: And what was the outcome of the 6 charges with respect to yourself? 7 A: Well, they all got dropped and we got 8 our fishing rights and we got our nets back, what was 9 left of them. 10 Q: All right. And was this event 11 instructive to you with respect to pursuing your rights - 12 - aboriginal rights? 13 A: It only -- to me it only made me see 14 and understand that anything has to do with the 15 government, Indian Affairs, MNR, they don't take people 16 seriously. They really don't care for what rights we 17 have -- we had. 18 It -- it made me understand that and made 19 me think about it a lot. And just made my eyes open a 20 lot more than, you know, what I -- I never really thought 21 about it before until it started happening to me. 22 Q: All right. And so now to -- to move 23 forward, then, to 1993 and your decision to walk onto the 24 Camp Ipperwash lands. You indicated that you gave 25 advance notice to the National -- the Department of
481 National Defence. 2 Did you also provide notice of your 3 intention to walk onto the Camp Ipperwash lands to the 4 Ontario Provincial Police? 5 A: Yes, I -- I talked to them also and I 6 explained to them that what we were going to do, it was 7 going to be peaceful, we weren't there to cause a 8 problem, like make trouble and it was all, like I said, 9 supposed to be peaceful. So they said, Go ahead, as long 10 as you're not doing anything illegal or else we'll -- we 11 will arrest you. 12 Q: Do you recall who, specifically, you 13 spoke to on behalf of the Ontario Provincial Police? 14 A: No, I'm bad with names and it was a 15 long time and I talked to so many. 16 Q: Okay. I wonder if you would look at 17 Tab 4 of your binder. It's Inquiry Document Number 18 2002643 and it's a letter dated May 6th, 1993 from Staff 19 Sergeant J.F. Carson to the Superintendent, Ontario 20 Provincial Police Number 1 District Headquarters and it's 21 referenced First Nations Occupation CFB Ipperwash. And 22 I'll read the letter in part, it indicates: 23 "Please be advised that at 24 approximately 9:30 hours this date 25 Chief Carl George, Stoney Point First
491 Nation attended this office to advise 2 that members of Stoney Point were 3 commencing to occupy the Military Base 4 CFB Ipperwash." 5 The third paragraph reads: 6 "Chief George indicates that the 7 occupation will be continued until 8 negotiations with the Federal 9 Government are successfully concluded. 10 Approximately twelve (12) persons are 11 expected to be -- take part in the 12 occupation. He assures this office 13 that all aspects of this action will be 14 peaceful. They do not want any other 15 groups to participate or interfere with 16 their efforts." 17 Now, does that sound like an accurate 18 reflection of your discussion when you attended at the -- 19 the -- the detachment? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And would May the 6th, 1993 sound 22 about right in terms of the date that you had this 23 meeting? 24 A: Yeah, that sounds about right, yes. 25 Q: I'd like to make this the next
501 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-166. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 166. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-166: Document 2002643 OPP Letter 6 May 06/'93 from J.F. Carson, 7 Staff Sergeant No. 5582, 8 Detachment Commander, 9 Reference: First Nations 10 Occupation - CFB Ipperwash 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: Thank you. Now, you are identified 14 in this document as Chief George of the Stoney Point 15 First Nation. And is it fair to say that -- that you 16 were presented as Chief of the Stoney Point First Nation 17 on that occasion? 18 A: Well, that's what the -- the group 19 that I went in with wanted to call me, but I wasn't -- I 20 didn't -- I didn't like the -- the title because I wasn't 21 a chief. I was only a spokesman at that time. 22 Because later on we -- we did have an 23 election and I figured well if that's what they want then 24 give it to them for, you know, for a while and see what 25 happens.
511 Q: All right. Is it fair to say that -- 2 that you -- you accepted though, this -- this title with 3 respect to your discussions with the police? 4 A: Well I kept telling them that I'm 5 only a spokesman, not a chief. But letters came back as 6 Chief Carl George and that's, you know, I kept telling 7 them, I'm only a spokesman here. 8 Q: Now you indicated that there was la - 9 - subsequently an election but you indicated a group of 10 people wanted you to be chief. 11 So was there a consensus with respect to 12 the people you were meeting with that you should be 13 chief? 14 A: They just suggested it, that in the 15 beginning. 16 Q: All right, fair enough. And when 17 you walked onto those lands, did you have a long term 18 vision as to how this process would go? 19 A: Yes. Like the vision I had was -- I 20 seen what happened with -- when they had their sacred 21 fire they stayed for three (3) days, three (3) nights. 22 Every -- everyone ignored them. When they left it was 23 all forgotten. And I know -- I know to the people it was 24 something but to the governments like National Defence 25 and the federal, provincial, they just forgot about it,
521 it was gone, it meant nothing to them. 2 And when I seen that it kind of made me 3 think like, okay, well, maybe they'll think the same 4 thing when we go on the land. But, we're not going to 5 tell anybody anything what we had planned. Like, once we 6 got on the land we were going to stay there until some 7 kind of a talk happened. 8 What I wanted to accomplish was to get 9 them talking and something in place, then I can kind of 10 phase out of the picture and let chief and council take 11 over from there. But earlier that -- that things 12 happened, they -- they didn't take notice, they didn't 13 really -- they didn't care. 14 Q: So your intention was to try through 15 this form of direct action, to get -- get something going 16 with the government and then once a process was in place, 17 you were -- you would have been content for the chief and 18 band council of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation to 19 carry on the negotiations? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And when you walked onto that land, 22 whose interests were you intending to represent? 23 A: Well I was intending to represent the 24 small group that I was with and also like, Kettle Point 25 and Stoney Point, everyone as a whole. Not just one (1)
531 small group here and one (1) small group there. 2 Like what I was doing was for everyone. 3 Like I never told anybody what my intentions were. I 4 never even told chief and council. I wanted to keep it 5 quiet and naturally a lot of people didn't know about it 6 and a lot of people didn't care. So, you know, a lot of 7 people didn't agree with me, but at the time I didn't 8 tell anybody. 9 Q: Now when you say you were doing it 10 for everyone can you be a little more specific? 11 A: Well, okay, if I was doing it for 12 everyone then I wanted to get the government's attention. 13 And I wasn't there just to talk for a small group I had 14 that was with me. Like everyone that had location 15 tickets and the government said they were suppose to 16 return the land after the war, which they failed to do. 17 And to this day it's still not returned 18 but I had intentions to stay on the land, make them take 19 notice that they can't get away with this no more. Like 20 I wanted to do it in a peaceful way and which I tried to 21 enforce and I just wanted the government to take notice, 22 that's all. 23 Q: All right, fair enough. Now you said 24 that you did not tell either the OPP or the Military that 25 not only did you intend to go on to the land, but that
541 you intended to stay for an indefinite period. 2 Why didn't you tell them that? 3 A: Because if they knew what we intended 4 to do, they would have never of allowed it. They would 5 have done anything to stop us. 6 Like when we first went in to the -- 7 through the gates, the guards there, you know, they -- 8 they laughed, they smiled and they talked and they joked 9 about us going in. They laughed at our little tents and 10 someone had, like I said, an eight (8) foot old raggedy 11 trailer. 12 They laughed at that and they allowed us 13 in. But after three (3) days went on, they knew that we 14 weren't going to leave. And other people tried to come 15 in with trailers and they stopped them. 16 Q: All right -- 17 A: They said no. 18 Q: Well let me just back you up for a 19 second, then. Going to the map, Inquiry Document Number 20 2000327, and using your laser pointer, can you firstly 21 tell me what day did you -- would you kindly indicate 22 what date you entered the Army Camp? 23 A: Well from the paper there, I -- I 24 think it said May the 6th. 25 Q: All right, and where did you enter?
551 A: I think it was the front gate and I 2 can't see the map that good, but it's somewhere around in 3 here. 4 Q: Are you talking about the main -- 5 A: The main -- 6 Q: -- gate -- 7 A: The main gate -- 8 Q: -- to the built up area? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay, thank you. How many people do 11 you think entered with you? 12 A: Well, like I said, it was around 13 anywhere from twelve (12) -- in between twelve (12) and 14 thirty (30) with -- with the children that they took in, 15 too. 16 Q: Where did you go, once you entered 17 through the main Army gate? 18 A: We mainly went to the range, around 19 here, this part along the -- the road that they had 20 there. 21 Q: Yes, the road that was parallel to 22 Highway 21? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: At around the rifle range area? 25 A: Around there, yes.
561 Q: Oh all right, and did -- was there 2 any -- did you -- was there any media coverage of this 3 event? 4 A: At first, no. 5 Q: Did you subsequently -- was there 6 publicity? 7 A: Like the first day we moved -- we 8 went in, I don't think there was, I can't recall any. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Later on, after that there was. 11 Q: Did you alert the media to this 12 event? 13 A: You mean when we went in? 14 Q: Either when you went in or once you 15 were in, did you alert -- 16 A: Once we were in, yes. 17 Q: All right, and what was the purpose 18 of that? 19 A: Well, once we were in there, I kind 20 of figured nobody could do anything about it and the best 21 coverage we could get would be the newspaper and -- and 22 the camera crews. 23 Q: And what was the purpose of that? 24 A: More or less to -- for everyone to 25 take notice, mainly the governments and National Defence
571 at that time, to know the -- understand that we weren't 2 going to be leaving there and we intended to and we want 3 our land back. 4 That's what we were mainly saying. 5 Q: All right, now you indicated the 6 Military did not stop you from entering. Was there any 7 police presence on -- on May the 6th when you entered? 8 A: Not that I can recall, no. Because 9 like I say, we didn't tell anybody when we were -- what 10 we were doing at that moment, because I figured they'd 11 try and stop us. 12 Q: All right, you told them you were 13 entering but they were left with the impression that you 14 were only going for a short term. 15 A: Yeah, yeah. 16 Q: Fair enough. 17 A: That's why I kept everything kind of 18 quiet. 19 Q: Now were there any weapons taken in, 20 any guns or rifles taken in -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: -- by the people? 23 A: No. Not if it was supposed to be 24 peaceful and that's what we -- we tried to get out there 25 that we were doing this in a peaceful fashion and, no, we
581 didn't have any weapons whatsoever. 2 Q: Can you recall who were in the 3 initial group of people who entered with you through the 4 main Army Camp gate? 5 A: Well there was Maynard T. George, 6 there was Janet Cloud and her daughter. I can't -- I 7 don't know all their younger ones' names. Let's see, who 8 else? I think it was her -- Maynard's other sister, 9 Noreen; I can't pronounce her name, Koejic (phonetic) and 10 her husband and I think it was her son and daughter. 11 There wasn't too many of us there. 12 Q: All right. And just for record, the 13 -- the map that you were just referring to is Exhibit P- 14 40. Now, were any ceremonies held on May the 6th, 1995 15 associated with your entry onto the land? 16 A: No, they -- they never had any, like 17 the sacred fire they had? No. 18 Q: All right. Fair enough. 19 A: They didn't have it there at the 20 time. 21 Q: Now, I'd like you to go to Tab 5 of 22 your documents, it's Inquiry Document Number 2001199 and 23 it's a briefing note dated May 6th, 1993 by Inspector TF 24 McKenna, "A" Division Number 1 District. And it's a 25 background, it's reported as being a demonstration that
591 you have reported and that you were, reportably: 2 "A peaceful occupation of the Army Camp 3 pursuant to ongoing native claims for 4 return of this land to them and that 5 the Base Commander, Sergeant Major Fred 6 White of the Base advises that the Camp 7 personnel will cooperate to the extent 8 possible. There has been no police 9 involvement or presence to this time, 10 nor has been -- there been a request 11 for same. And the initial report from 12 George was for our information only." 13 Now, does that sound like accurate -- 14 accurately reflect the conversation that you had with the 15 Inspector on May the 6th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. We can make that the next 18 exhibit, Commissioner. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-167. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 167. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-167: Document 2001199 Briefing 23 note May 06/'93 prepared by 24 Inspector T.F. McKenna 'A' 25 Division No. 1 District Re:
601 Native Demonstration, Camp 2 Ipperwash 1000 Hrs May 06/93 3 (Property of Dept. of 4 National Defence) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. Now, going back to 8 Exhibit P-40 which is the map of the Military Base and 9 the Park and you have a copy of that map in front of you, 10 Mr. Tolsma. That's it. And I wonder if you would, on 11 the mark -- on the map, mark the approximate location 12 where the initial families put up their tents and 13 trailers. Perhaps you could use a circle to indicate the 14 general area. 15 A: (INDICATING). 16 Q: And mark that with a Number 1, 17 please? 18 A: Now, this is just roughly where they 19 were. I can't pinpoint exactly where they were because 20 everybody moved around different -- different spots. 21 Q: And for the record I think that you'd 22 indicated it was along the -- the road parallel to 23 Highway 21 and the rifle range area? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: All right. We'll make that the next
611 exhibit, Commissioner? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-168. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 168. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-168: Document 1002409 Page 13, Map 6 of Ipperwash Military Reserve 7 marked by Witness Carl Tolsma 8 February 09/'05 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Now, describe -- describe the general 12 mood of the occupants during this time in May of '93? 13 A: Well, they were happy to go in and 14 happy to be a part of something and thought they were 15 going to -- it was, well, I could say a joyous time 16 because they wanted to do something just -- just like I 17 did at the time. 18 Q: And after the three (3) days passed, 19 did -- was there any intervention or contact with either 20 the OPP or the Military personnel with respect to the 21 fact that you -- you were not leaving, you were clearly 22 not leaving? 23 A: Well, if I recall right, there's 24 other people that tried to come in through the main gate 25 but the guards wouldn't allow them in --
621 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- and at that time I -- I think we 3 let the Military know that we weren't going to be 4 leaving. I'm trying to recall, right -- I think we just 5 let the Military know, I'm not sure. 6 Q: Well, did in fact, other people join 7 you shortly thereafter? 8 A: Yeah, like I said, other people tried 9 to come in but they weren't allowed through the gate to 10 bring any trailers or anything in. So they -- what they 11 done was, jump over the fence along the highway. And 12 after a while we -- we took the fence down, like, where 13 the roads were to get onto the highway and that's how 14 they got in, with their trailers. 15 Q: Was there a gate that was locked 16 which -- which had the lock broken open or cut open -- 17 A: Yes, that was down near Outer Drive 18 and that was later on after a lot more of the people 19 already came in. So we got a hold of the newspapers and 20 cameras to -- just to show that we were -- we were going 21 in through there. 22 And I believe it was Bert Mannings that 23 had a hacksaw and both me and him broke a link on the 24 lock to take it off, and we opened the gate to -- more or 25 less to say, Whoever wants to come in, they can come in
631 now. 2 Q: Now, approximately how long after May 3 6th did this happen? 4 A: I think it was during the -- in the 5 summer. 6 Q: Of 1993? 7 A: I'm pretty sure. 8 Q: And what other families joined your 9 occupation over the course of the spring and summer of 10 '93? 11 A: I think there was the Mannings 12 family, Glen George's family. There was a lot of -- a 13 lot of other people that came in. There was a Cloud 14 family. Like I said, a lot of people came in, they 15 stayed, but a lot of people came in for a weekend and 16 they left. A lot of people just came in and left 17 constantly, so. 18 Q: All right, so there was a 19 fluctuation? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Did Dudley George join you? 22 A: Yes, he did but I can't remember 23 exactly when he came. 24 Q: All right, was his presence welcomed 25 by you?
641 A: Oh, yes. 2 Q: Why? 3 A: Well, he was kind of a guy that we 4 talked and I think at the time I talked with Glenn and he 5 said, Well, he has nothing to do and he wants to come. 6 So I think at that time we got a trailer and we said, 7 okay, this will be Dudley's trailer where he can live. 8 And as far as I knew, knowing Dudley, he 9 was, more or less, kind of a happy-go-lucky guy and he 10 just, more or less, got along with everybody. 11 Q: Now what was the reaction, to your 12 knowledge, of the Chief and Band Council to -- to your 13 actions in occupying or commencing an occupation of the - 14 - part of the Camp Ipperwash lands? 15 A: Well, I don't think they liked it too 16 much. Like I said, I didn't tell too many people what I 17 had planned until I seen where -- it was time for me to 18 tell them. Like after -- after a while when I went to 19 Tom and I explained to him that -- what I had planned, 20 and he was okay with it, he understood. 21 But I had to tell him that I couldn't tell 22 anybody because, you know, if you got a group of people 23 and someone doesn't like what you're doing then they're 24 going to do something opposite, so everything would have 25 got messed up.
651 So I couldn't tell anybody what I wanted 2 to do. Like I said, a lot of people hated my guts for it 3 but that goes along with whatever you got to do. You got 4 to do what you got to do. 5 Q: All right. Now on May the 7th I 6 wonder if you would go to Tab 6 of your document -- part 7 of the Inquiry Document Number 3000723. And it's 8 entitled "Camp Ipperwash Occupation Chronology of 9 Events". It's the 3rd page in. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 11 what tab is that? 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 6. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 6? 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: And this is a document that appears 17 to be historical background and chronology of events in 18 May. And at May the 7th, there's an indication that at 19 08:00 Maynard, Carl, and Clifford George attempt to bluff 20 Camp secretary, they depart on arrival of Military staff. 21 Now, do you have recollection as to what 22 that was about on May the 7th? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And at 1:30 or 13:30 indicates there 25 was a staged media event that Carl George presents
661 detective with legal papers. Do you recall serving legal 2 papers on the Military on September the 7th? 3 A: I -- well, we probably did but I just 4 -- I can't remember what papers they were. 5 Q: There's an indication that -- that 6 you had a meeting at 14:00 with Captain Dodson and that 7 you were told that you were trespassing and that you 8 would be responsible for any and all activities. 9 Now, do you recall having a meeting with 10 the Military early on in which -- 11 A: I -- I remember those words what we 12 were told, yeah. But it takes a little bit for 13 everything to come back. 14 Q: Fair enough. It was a long time ago. 15 A: Yes, it was. 16 Q: Ten (10) years ago so... 17 A: I remember them saying that, yes. 18 Q: All right. And what was your 19 reaction when you were given that advice? 20 A: Well, my reaction -- I had to accept 21 it. And I told them how that it was suppose to be 22 peaceful and like they had the documents stating that 23 this was reserve land at one (1) time and they were 24 supposed to give it back. And that's what we kept, you 25 know, pushing -- pushing at them.
671 Q: In other words you -- you stayed on 2 the land notwithstanding that notice -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- or that advice? 5 A: We -- we stayed, stayed on the land, 6 yes. 7 Q: Now if you look over the next page, 8 May 11th evening, I'm reading from the document. 9 "Carl George asked OPP for assistance. 10 He intimates possibility of violence by 11 other Band members against Stoney Point 12 group." 13 Do you -- do you recall having a concern 14 in that regard and making a request for assistance? 15 A: I can remember a -- a little bit. 16 Like I -- I probably did call them because a lot -- like 17 I said, a lot of people didn't like us being there. And 18 at that time a lot of people -- because we were on the 19 land, said that we were on their parents', grandparents' 20 property and they didn't like the idea of us being there. 21 Q: So these were other people from the 22 Kettle and Stony Point community who you had concerns? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Did those concerns ever - 25 - were they ever realized in May of '93? Was there any
681 difficulties? 2 A: Myself, I knew that it would happen, 3 that's -- that's the reason why I didn't want any other 4 group coming in. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: But after we came in then, you know, 7 it -- it was kind of hard to stop people from coming in. 8 Like, I -- I couldn't really say, well, you can't come in 9 here, we don't want you here. It was more or less where 10 we tried to welcome everybody and -- but tried to keep a 11 -- a lid on everything at the same time. 12 Q: But was there any -- were there any 13 incidents of violence amongst the -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- occupants in May of '93? 16 A: I -- I can't recall any. Just a lot 17 of arguing and that was about -- that's the end of it. 18 Q: And did you call the OPP for 19 assistance? 20 A: I must say, I can't remember. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall any members 22 of the Ontario Provincial Police coming onto the -- the 23 land in May of '93? 24 A: Well, yeah, they -- they raided us 25 one (1) time.
691 Q: All right. I think that -- are you 2 referring to a -- an execution of a search warrant? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right, I believe that that was a 5 little later. But I'm talking about May, the first -- 6 the first month of your occupation. 7 A: For the OPP to come in? 8 Q: At your request. 9 A: At my request? Well, I did talk to 10 one (1) officer from Grand Bend Detachment. I got along 11 pretty good with him and he did come and he talked with 12 me to, you know, give me advice and help me out with 13 different stuff, more or less just to keep the peace. 14 That's all I can recall, any police officer coming -- 15 Q: And do you -- 16 A: -- on the land. 17 Q: -- recall the name of this 18 individual? 19 A: I believe -- I think it was Rick 20 Bouwman. 21 Q: All right. So it's fair to say that 22 you developed a -- a good working relationship with this 23 police officer? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And he attended from time to time to
701 have discussions with you? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what types of discussions did you 4 have with him? 5 A: Well the -- we talked about 6 different, you know, demonstrations and stuff and he said 7 to me, well, you know, I says if you do -- keep within 8 the law, you know, we won't have a problem. 9 Different things like that and the 10 concerns he had, like, with -- well this was later on, 11 like, with, you know, patrolling the beach front and more 12 or less to say, okay, we have a good working relationship 13 here and if you want this to be peaceful you won't have a 14 problem with it. 15 And I did agree with it because I thought 16 it was a good thing to do because of the cottagers, they 17 were uneasy. They thought we were violent and that was 18 the furthest thing away from our mind. 19 But, you know, stuff like that. Let the 20 people know we weren't violent and we were willing to -- 21 we only want our land back and that's all we want. We 22 weren't there to cause problems for anybody else. 23 Q: All right, thank you. Commissioner, 24 it's 10:30. Is it time for the morning break, perhaps? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely.
711 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take a break 3 now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:48 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Now did you, in fact, do you recall 17 whether or not a trespass notice was served on behalf of 18 your group, on the Military? 19 A: Yes, I think there was. 20 Q: I'd ask you to kindly look at Tab 8 21 of your book of documents, it's part of Inquiry Document 22 Number 2001202, the fax cover sheet from the Ontario 23 Provincial Police, dated May 18, 1993, and the third page 24 of that document appears to be a Notice. 25 And you'll see there's a back to it as
721 well, and under Agent, there's a signature; is that your 2 signature? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is this in fact the Notice of 5 Trespass, dated May 18th, 1993, which was served on 6 behalf of your group? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I'd like to make that the next 9 Exhibit, Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-169. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 169. May 13 18th. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-169: Document 2001202 OPP Fax 16 Cover sheet from Supt. T.C. 17 Randall, May 18/'93 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: All right. Now, what was your intent 21 in having this Notice served on the Military? 22 A: Well, they were supposed to return 23 the land after the war, and they -- which they never, so 24 we figured, you know, if we serve this, then, naturally, 25 it's going to go to the headquarters and from there who
731 knows where it's going to go. 2 But it's more or less to start the ball 3 rolling, make people understand. 4 Q: All right. And did you provide 5 notice of your intention to have this Notice served to 6 the Ontario Provincial Police? 7 A: Probably did, yes. 8 Q: Would you kindly look at your 9 document at Tab 7, it's Inquiry Document Number 2000667, 10 it's a letter dated May 18, 1993, from Acting Staff 11 Sergeant Beacock to the Superintendent Number 1 District 12 Headquarters. 13 And you'll see that at the second 14 paragraph, it's indicated as follows: 15 "At 10:35 hours, Maynard George, Stoney 16 Point member, Historian, contacted 17 myself by telephone and advised me that 18 the Stoney Point First Nations people 19 would be having a Notice served on the 20 Camp personnel by Bailiff J. Scott 21 Ewart, Bailiff for the Province of 22 Ontario, and following that service, 23 structures would be moved over to Camp 24 Ipperwash. 25 I attended the site and spoke with
741 Chief Carl George and Maynard George. 2 Maynard George gave me a copy of the 3 Notice, which was left at the Main Gate 4 Building, tacked to the wall." 5 Now, does that assist -- do you recall 6 having a meeting with the police officer in relation to 7 this Notice? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It further indicates that, I was, and 10 I'll quote: 11 "I was also advised by Maynard George 12 that they would be serving a member of 13 the Ministry of Natural Resources and 14 moving buildings onto the Ipperwash 15 Province Park this date." 16 this date being May 18th, 1993. And indeed was notice 17 also provided to the Park officials? 18 A: I remember something like that, but 19 the -- I remember Maynard writing -- telling me about 20 this. I didn't -- like it says here, I didn't -- I 21 wasn't with him when he went up to the front main gate. 22 I remember Scott George serving the paper. 23 Q: Scott Ewart, you mean? 24 A: Scott Ewart. 25 Q: All right.
751 A: Yes. And I know the guards wouldn't 2 take it, so he did tack it to the wall. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And I remember Maynard meeting with 5 the MNR head guy there. But to put a, like you say, put 6 a building on the land, but at that time we -- we just 7 wanted to more or less hand information out. We weren't 8 going to put any building on the land. 9 Q: All right. To distribute information 10 at the Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. But the point is really, 13 did -- did you intend and did you provide notice to both 14 Park officials and the Army Camp Military officials of -- 15 of your position that they were trespassing? 16 A: Trespassing. Yeah I'm pretty sure we 17 did, yeah. 18 Q: All right. And just for the record, 19 Maynard -- the Maynard George of whom you have been 20 speaking was Maynard Travis George; is that right? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Thank you. Make the May 18th, 1993 23 letter at Tab 7 the next exhibit please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-170. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-170.
761 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-170: Document 2000667 OPP letter 2 May 18/'93 from E.B. Beacock 3 NO. 2156 Acting Staff 4 Sergeant Re: First Nations 5 Occupation CFB Ipperwash 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Now why -- why were you giving 9 advance notice to the police of what your next step was 10 going to be? 11 A: So they knew that we were doing 12 everything in a peaceful fashion; we weren't going to 13 rush in. That's the main thing I -- like I said, I kept 14 trying to stress. I didn't want any violence to happen, 15 I didn't want -- I tried to let the Provincial Police 16 know up to that point everything what we were doing; that 17 we weren't going to block the roads and, you know, just 18 to keep everything in a peaceful fashion. 19 Q: All right. Now, do you recall also 20 entering into discussions with people from the Ministry 21 of Natural Resources in relation to trying to form an 22 understanding or co-management arrangement with respect 23 to the Park and in particular relating to your ability to 24 distribute information at the Park? 25 A: Yes.
771 Q: I would like you to look at a 2 document at Tab 9 of your Book of Documents, it's Inquiry 3 Document Number 1006450, the letter dated May 19, 1993. 4 And perhaps you could look at the second page of that 5 letter. 6 Is that your signature over the line Chief 7 Carl O. George? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: Okay. And it indicates -- it's 10 addressed to the Ministry of Natural Resources. It says: 11 "Subject to a meeting between Chief 12 Carl O. George, Maynard Travis George 13 and Provincial Park official Mr. 14 Kobayashi, Ontario Provincial Police 15 4th Detachment on the status quo of the 16 operations management of the former 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park, the 18 following letter is of understanding 19 its issue." 20 And this indicated: 21 "That on March the 9th, 1993, 22 approximately thirty (30) days was 23 given the Ministry of Nature Resources 24 hereafter MNR via the Honourable Howard 25 Hanson (phonetic), MPP for the Province
781 of Ontario, a written notice to vacate 2 the above mentioned lands." 3 Now do you recall providing a notice to 4 vacate to the Honourable Howard Hanson? 5 A: Yeah, we probably did. Like I say a 6 lot of these things -- it's been quite a while now and 7 yeah, we probably did. 8 Q: And in the next paragraph it says: 9 "On May 18th --" 10 So the day before this letter -- 11 "1993, notice was served by a Mr. J. 12 Scott Ewart, a Bailiff for the Province 13 of Ontario on the Ipperwash Provincial 14 Park in right of Section 129, 129 (c), 15 (d) and (e) of the Protection of 16 Reserves in Upper Canada, dated 17 November 8, 1850, that the Stoney Point 18 First Nation Number 42 of Aazhoodena 19 territory has seized lands in right of 20 our exclusive enjoyment and use as 21 Chippewas First Nations members." 22 And do you recall that now whether or not 23 that notice was delivered? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then there is some principles
791 that you've outlined here. 2 " 1) A structure of approximately six 3 (6) metres square or twenty (20) feet 4 for an information booth on Native 5 Titles and History was sought to be 6 constructed at the Park. And equitable 7 division of the two hundred and sixty- 8 six (266) campground sites for 50/50 9 entitlement, utilizing regular 10 Ipperwash documentation for the 1993 11 season. 12 A third use of defined areas of this 13 for historical plaques commemorating 14 the uprooted families and veterans who 15 died while waiting to return home; 4) a 16 ceremony on Remembrance Day in right of 17 the living veterans and landowners at 18 Stoney Point with MNR officials and 19 other veterans." 20 Now, were these the principles that you 21 advanced with respect to an understanding to be reached 22 as between yourselves and the Provincial Government 23 concerning the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you receive a response?
801 A: Hmm. I can't -- again, I can't 2 remember if we did or not. 3 Q: Do you recall whether or not you were 4 allowed to put up a structure in the Park for that 5 purpose? 6 A: Well, they probably said, No, but the 7 idea was to -- I think it ended up like they said that we 8 could have one (1) -- a portion in the store or something 9 like that to hand out pamphlets -- 10 Q: All right. 11 A: -- but I can't remember if that -- if 12 it was part of the store or another small building. I 13 know they said that we could have a -- a little section 14 there somewhere. 15 Q: All right. Were you given access to 16 half of the two hundred and sixty-six (266) campground 17 sites? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Were there historical plaques 20 erected, or at least locations designated for their 21 erection? 22 A: We pointed out where the grave sites 23 -- we figured they were, but that was about all I -- I 24 think. 25 Q: And was a ceremony held on
811 Remembrance Day, as suggested with respect to the 2 veterans in Stoney Point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And I see that there are 5 a number of other signatures. This indicates that you 6 are presented as the Acting Chief, Maynard Travis George 7 as a Councillor, R. Janet Cloud as Councillor, Marlene 8 Cloud as a Councillor, Clifford George as a Councillor, 9 and Rosalie Manning (Elijah), with no such designation. 10 Was she also a Councillor or -- or -- what was her 11 position? 12 A: She was also a Councillor, but at 13 that time just prior to that we -- I think that's around 14 about the time that we figured we better have a -- people 15 wanted an election to just more or less have one (1) 16 person as spokesman and -- because we were having a 17 little bit of problem at that time. 18 Q: All right. So the election hadn't 19 happened yet. How did these people become the -- at 20 least come to present themselves as the Councillors at -- 21 A: Well -- 22 Q: -- at Stoney Point First Nation? 23 A: Maynard T. George had a problem with 24 writing documents and he wanted everything to look 25 professional and the rest of the people, they just went
821 along with it. 2 Q: All right. So is it fair to say that 3 there was a consensus as amongst the -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- Occupants that these people would 6 be presented for purposes of this letter in those 7 capacities? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Thank you. Would you kindly, 10 Commissioner, make that the next exhibit, please? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 171. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-171. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-171: Document 1006450, May 19/'93 16 letter from Stoney Point 17 First Nations Reserve No. 43 18 to Ministry of Natural 19 Resources 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Did you actually have any meetings 23 with the Honourable Howard Hanson -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- or -- or any other politician in
831 relation to your proposal? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you recall whether you had a 4 meeting with any Park officials in relation to this 5 proposal? 6 A: Well, Maynard T. George, he pretty 7 well went and met with them himself and maybe a few 8 others. I can't rightly remember, but I -- I know I 9 never really went to a meeting to meet with them. 10 Q: Okay. In any event you've relayed 11 your understanding of the Government -- the Provincial 12 Government's response to your proposal? 13 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 14 Q: Is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. All right, I'd like to go 17 next to Tab 12 of your documents. This is part of the 18 Inquiry Document Number 1007802. It's a letter dated May 19 19th, 1983 and its enclosing a Notice under the Trespass 20 Act. 21 Sorry, a notice under the Criminal Code 22 and the Protection of Indian Reserves and Upper Canada 23 Act, dated May 18th, 1993. 24 And I'll ask you first, is that your 25 signature on the letter to the Honourable Ralph Ferguson,
841 MP, Lambton, Middlesex constituency? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: And is your signature also reflected 4 on the May 18, 1993 Notice as Agent? 5 A: That's right, it is. 6 Q: Let's make that the next exhibit. 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-172. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 172. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-172: Document 1007802, May 19/'93 13 Letter to Honourable Ralph 14 Ferguson MP from Chief Carl 15 O. George and Councillor 16 Maynard T. George 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: And to your knowledge, was this 20 Notice then -- firstly this is the Notice that -- that 21 was delivered in relation to what lands? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Oh, it's got the -- Enniskillen
851 lands. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: All right, perhaps you can tell me 6 what the Enniskillen lands were? 7 A: Well, the Enniskillen lands is just 8 outside of Petrolia and it was also a reserve quite a 9 while back. And since then I think it has been resolved 10 or a compensation package was handed out, I'm pretty 11 sure. 12 Q: And the second -- 13 A: And I didn't -- 14 Q: Sorry. 15 A: I didn't keep too close tabs on -- on 16 that. 17 Q: The second paragraph indicates that 18 the Notice as being transmitted within the -- to -- 19 within the Stoney Point Indian Reserve Number 43 on 20 Aazhoodena territory. 21 Does that assist with respect to what this 22 Notice related to? 23 A: It probably had something to do with 24 it, yes. 25 Q: All right. And the last paragraph of
861 the letter reads: 2 "We consider any payment made by the 3 Federal Government known or unknown by 4 our people to the council of the Kettle 5 Point Reserve Number 44 under the 6 heading of the Kettle and Stony Point 7 Council and acts to prohibit or 8 diminish our credibility and legal 9 right to proceed on our legal seizure 10 and repossession of our lands." 11 Does that assist you then, in 12 understanding what this Notice related to? 13 A: Well, I have to explain there's a lot 14 of times that Maynard T. George, he wrote a lot of these 15 letters and up -- and he explained to me real quickly and 16 I just more or less signed them, because -- to get things 17 moving and, you know, I kind of trusted him in certain 18 ways and so a lot of these I can't even -- I can't even 19 recall half of them. 20 Q: Let me ask you this, then: Was it 21 part of your plan to occupy any other lands, like the 22 Enniskillen lands? 23 A: No, it wasn't. 24 Q: All right. And was there any further 25 action taken with resp -- to your knowledge, by your
871 group with respect to advancing this claim, with respect 2 to the Enniskillen -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- land? Thank you. And we'll make 5 that the next exhibit. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 173. 7 THE REGISTRAR: What document is that? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, it's 1007802. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 10 sorry, that's 172. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, my 12 apologies. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 document 170 -- Exhibit P-172. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is, Your Honour. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: All right. Now, it is fair to say 20 that, from time to time, you gave interviews to the 21 media? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do you recall giving an interview 24 on May the 19th, 1993 to the Sarnia Observer? 25 A: I probably did.
881 Q: Would you kindly look at Tab 10 and 2 part of Inquiry Document Number 1007626. It's an article 3 entitled, "Natives Seize Camp Ipperwash, Wooden Building 4 Moved On Site." Sarnia Observer, May 19, 1993 by Paul 5 Morden. 6 And if you would kindly look at the -- the 7 second column at the very last line, a quote is 8 attributed to you as follows: 9 "We have to do something, said Chief 10 George. We've got to do something to 11 open their ears in Ottawa." 12 And one (1) paragraph following: 13 "Chief George said, The only way we can 14 do it is to fight them with their own 15 laws." 16 And this is in reference to the service of 17 the notice at the Camp gates by Scott Ewart. 18 Now, did that accurately reflect your 19 sentiments with respect to the purpose of serving the 20 notice at the Military Base? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And make that the next exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-173. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25
891 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-173: Document 1007626, Sarnia 2 Observer article "Natives 3 Seize Camp Ipperwash, Wooden 4 Building Moved On Site" May 5 19/'93 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: And again, was this interview part of 9 your strategy to draw public attention to what the 10 actions of your group was? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, you indicated earlier that you 13 couldn't remember whether or not a small structure had -- 14 was permitted to be moved onto the Park. 15 If you would kindly look at document -- 16 Tab 13, the letter dated May 20, 1993, Inquiry Document 17 Number 2002549, a letter by Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock 18 of the Ontario Provincial Police to the Superintendent 19 Number 1 District Headquarters re: First Nations 20 Occupation CFB Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial Park. 21 And the letter states in part: 22 "Further to the above mentioned, please 23 be advised at 1500 hours, May 19, 1993, 24 Chief Carl George and historian Maynard 25 George -"
901 I take that, again, it's Maynard T. 2 George: 3 "...met with Park superintendent Les 4 Kobayashi; Brett Dodson, Aylmer 5 District Enforcement Specialist and 6 Terry Humberstone, MNR First Nations 7 Specialist at Ipperwash Provincial 8 Park. The above Parties agreed the 9 First Nations people would move a small 10 structure into the Park either later 11 May 19, 1993 or in the early morning of 12 May 20, 1993. 13 This building is to be manned between 14 0800 and 1630 hours daily for the 15 purpose of handing out information 16 pamphlets and possibly the sale of 17 artifacts. At 1530 hours May 19, 1993 18 Acting Sergeant L.J. Parks and myself 19 spoke with Chief Carl George and 20 Maynard George at Ipperwash Park. They 21 both were made aware of our concerns of 22 any confrontation that could develop 23 due to the large number of persons 24 using the Park this holiday weekend. 25 Both Parties informed me their
911 intention is to continue their original 2 plan of a peaceful occupation of the 3 Camp and the Park and would do 4 everything in their power to control 5 the activities of their members." 6 Now, do you recall, first of all, now 7 whether or not there was an agreement by the Government 8 to allow -- Ontario Government to allow you to put in a 9 small booth in the Park? 10 A: Well, since going over the letter the 11 -- yes, I do recall it now. We met in the maintenance 12 building and that's where we talked, there, but to put a 13 building up there, I don't think it ever happened. 14 Q: All right. Do you recall having a 15 discussion, then, with the -- with the police officer in 16 the maintenance building or with just the Park official? 17 A: I can't remember who actually was 18 there. 19 Q: Do you recall there being a concern 20 raised with respect to the possibility of some type of 21 confrontation or interaction, if you will, as between the 22 Occupants and Park attendees? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And was that a concern for you? 25 A: Yes, we didn't want to -- well, a lot
921 of people -- it was always a concern for me because 2 people -- when it comes to the Native people, they always 3 think, well, there's always going to be violence 4 involved. 5 The majority of the people will understand 6 but we didn't really want to give them that kind of an 7 outlook to -- that's why we said just to hand information 8 out; that's all we wanted and more or less just to keep - 9 - keep out of the way, only for the people that's coming 10 or leaving. 11 We didn't want to give the campers 12 anything to, you know, be afraid of; more or less just 13 leave them be and let them enjoy the summer and it was 14 just mainly to hand information out, that was it. 15 Q: And did, in fact, members of your 16 group hand out information at the Park on that weekend? 17 A: I think they did on the roadway, I 18 believe. 19 Q: And were there any unfortunate 20 incidents, to your knowledge? 21 A: Where there was two (2) times, I'm 22 trying to refer to. The first time there was no problem. 23 And the second time was when we tried to -- like, when we 24 set a toll booth up. 25 Q: Okay. I'll get to that in a moment.
931 A: Oh, okay. 2 Q: So we'll get -- I was just interested 3 in whether there was any incidents during this weekend 4 when information was handed out and I think you've 5 indicated not to your knowledge; is that fair? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: Could we make the next -- this letter 8 the next exhibit please? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-174. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 174. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-174: Document 2002549 OPP letter 13 May 20/'93 from E.B. Beacock 14 No. 2156, Acting Staff 15 Sergeant to the Supt. OPP 16 Chatham re: First Nations 17 Occupation CFB Ipperwash, 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Now in May of 1993, was it part of 22 your long-term strategy to ultimately enter into the 23 built-up area of Camp Ipperwash, to the best of your 24 recollection? 25 A: It wasn't my intentions, no.
941 Q: All right. Are you certain about 2 that? 3 A: We may have mentioned maybe but it 4 was never my intention. 5 Q: All right. I wonder if you would go 6 to the document at Tab 14, Inquiry Document Number 7 2002607, letter dated May 22, 1993 by Police Officer W.C. 8 Watkins to the Superintendent Number 1 District 9 Headquarters of the Ontario Provincial Police. 10 And it indicates -- this is clearly a 11 report by the police officer concerning the activities of 12 the Park and Camp Ipperwash in relation to the 13 occupation. But I'm interest in the -- the second last 14 paragraph and I'll quote: 15 "Of interest is a statement made by 16 Carl George to MNR officials on May 20, 17 1993 that they "haven't occupied any 18 buildings yet". Information now is 19 that the First Nations feel that their 20 land claim is for twenty-two hundred 21 (2200) acres." 22 And I'm just wondering if you recall 23 making that statement to an MNR official and if so, what 24 buildings you were actually referring to? 25 A: Hmm. I can't really recall it. And
951 what buildings -- really we didn't -- we weren't going to 2 occupy any building, really. 3 Q: And that -- could it be in relation 4 to the Park as opposed to the -- the barracks? 5 A: Yes, yes. 6 Q: And did you have any intention to 7 occupy Park buildings at that time? 8 A: No. 9 Q: But you may have made that comment 10 nonetheless? 11 A: I may have. But I can't recall it. 12 Q: Make that the next exhibit please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-175. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 175. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-175: Document 2002607, OPP Letter 17 May 22, 1993 to the 18 Superintendent, OPP, Chatham 19 from W.C. Watkins No. 7932 20 re: First Nations Occupation 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Now, did you have conversations, to 24 the best of your recollection, with the Military 25 officials and I appreciate I'm jumping between and the
961 Park and the Army Camp here, on the issue of Victoria Day 2 celebrations at Camp Ipperwash and the possibility that 3 members of your group would enter into a demonstration on 4 that day; do you recall? 5 A: We probably did, because I know it 6 would have been -- I just can't really recall it, but I - 7 - faintly I can. Like I say, it's been a long time and 8 it's really hard to remember all this stuff again. 9 Q: And I appreciate that. Do you recall 10 there being some type of a demonstration at the parade 11 square on Victoria Day weekend? 12 A: I can't recall it, no. 13 Q: Perhaps you would go to the document 14 at Tab 15, Inquiry Document Number 2002603. It's a 15 letter dated May 23, 1993 by Inspector J.F. Carson, he's 16 a Superintendent Number 1 District of the Ontario 17 Provincial Police. 18 Now the second paragraph indicates -- 19 sorry, the second paragraph indicates that there was a 20 report that a notice had been served on the Military at 21 CFB Ipperwash by a bailiff that indicated the First 22 Nations people would be setting up checkpoints. The 23 checkpoints are to be set up around the parade square and 24 the barracks for this Victoria Day weekend there are 25 about nine hundred (900) cadets and militia using the
971 Base. 2 Now, do you recall there being any notice 3 provided by Scott Ewart with respect to an intention to 4 set up some type of checkpoints around the parade square 5 on Victoria Day? 6 A: Well, it's -- like I say, I -- for 7 the life of me I can't recall this one. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But, I have talked to a lot of the 10 people that were in charge of the cadets and there was a 11 concern -- like a lot of the parents were calling in and 12 they were worried about the -- their children being 13 there. 14 Q: Which children? 15 A: Like, for the cadets. And like I 16 said, I met with a lot of the -- the people that was in 17 charge, and I told them that they have no worries, that 18 we're not going to be doing anything when the cadets are 19 there, because that's not our -- that wasn't a concern. 20 And, like I suggested to them, I wouldn't 21 want my kids going to some Camp and having somebody 22 harassing them, so that was the furthest thing from my 23 mind, especially when there's young kids there, because, 24 you know, that's -- kids are our future and there's -- 25 you got to be a pretty sick person to go and cause a
981 problem for children. 2 But I told them at that time that we 3 weren't going to be doing anything so the -- you know, 4 the parents could be set at ease and there was a lot of 5 parents calling in at that time. 6 Q: All right, all right. And how did 7 you know that parents were calling in? 8 A: Because I was told by the ones that 9 were in charge. 10 Q: All right. And so is it fair to say 11 that you had a -- a constructive relationship at this 12 point with the Military officials? 13 A: I knew -- I knew quite a few of them 14 because I worked there and when I was working for the 15 maintenance engineers, you know, I -- we'd go from 16 building to building fixing them. 17 And we finally got to know them by name 18 and we joked around with them and talked to them and I 19 got to know some of them pretty good. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So, yeah, I did have a pretty good 22 relationship with them. 23 Q: Fair enough. Now, I'd like to draw 24 your attention to the last paragraph on the first page of 25 this letter.
991 "Acting Staff Sergeant E.D. Beacock and 2 Inspector J.F. Carson attended the area 3 of the Base where the Stoney Point 4 people have arranged their main Camp. 5 There was a lengthy discussion with 6 Carl George (Chief). He advised that 7 although the initial understanding that 8 the demonstration would be confined to 9 a small area at the northeast corner of 10 the Base, several members needed their 11 privacy and subsequently relocated to 12 various locations closer to the 13 barracks and parade square. 14 When reminded of the original 15 assurances about these locations, 16 George stated that he could not stop 17 the people from moving about the Base." 18 And over onto the next page: 19 "Carl George explained that the main 20 issue is for the Stoney Point people to 21 be recognized as a separate band. At 22 this point the recognition rests with 23 the officially elected Kettle and Stony 24 Point band. He further advised that 25 once -- once this -- once this
1001 recognition is achieved the people will 2 commence building on the Base." 3 Now, did an issue arise with respect to 4 members of your group setting up their camps beyond the 5 original area that was set aside for your occupation? 6 A: Like, this letter here, I -- I can't 7 even remember anything about this. Like, this is 8 something new to me. 9 Q: You don't recall a meeting -- 10 A: I can't recall anything concerning 11 anything to do with this -- this letter here. 12 Q: All right. Do -- do you recall 13 making any -- do you recall that being an issue, though, 14 a concern that people -- 15 A: No, no I can't. 16 Q: That's fair enough. Do you recall 17 making any statements in relation to the desire of your 18 group to be recognized as an independent First Nation? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. Fair enough. Thank you. 21 Make this the next exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-176. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-176: Document 2002603 OPP letter
1011 May 23/'93 to the 2 Superintendent, OPP Chatham 3 from J.F. Carson, Inspector 4 Re: First Nations Occupation 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. Now, do you recall having 8 a meeting with Les Kobayashi, who was a Park official -- 9 Park Superintendent, in fact, of the Ipperwash Provincial 10 Park, on May 25, 1993, to discuss some issues in relation 11 to the Park? 12 A: The only time I met with anyone from 13 the Park was in the maintenance building on the 14 Provincial Park and like I said, to remember who was all 15 there, I -- I can't remember who was all there at the 16 time. I think he was there. 17 Q: All right. And was this with respect 18 to the discussion about disseminating information 19 pamphlets at the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And if you'd look at 22 document -- the document at Tab 17 and if you look at the 23 back side of the cover e-mail, it's Inquiry Document 24 Number 1007797 and it's a letter dated May 25, 1993 to 25 Carl George from L. K. Kobayashi.
1021 Did you receive -- take a moment to review 2 it and can -- can you tell me whether or not it's likely 3 that you received a copy of this letter? 4 A: I kind of remember receiving this 5 letter, yes. 6 Q: All right. I'd like that to be made 7 the next exhibit, Commissioner? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-177. 9 COMMISSIONER SYDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-177: Document 1007797 May 26/'93 12 "E-mail to Ron Baldwin, from 13 Les Kobayashi, MNR-Parks and 14 Recreation Re: Maynard George 15 Telecon May 26/'93 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Thank you. All right. I'd like you 19 to go next to Tab 18 of your book of documents, Inquiry 20 Document Number 2002612 and it's entitled, "Ipperwash 21 Occupation Chronology of Events." And this came from the 22 OPP database so I assume it's from their documents. 23 I'd like to really just review some of the 24 events that are listed here, just to confirm or not the 25 accuracy of the -- the chronology insofar as you can help
1031 us. 2 Do you recall whether or not there was a 3 demonstration at the Camp on July 15th, 1992? 4 A: Yes, there was. 5 Q: Do you recall whether in May -- May 6 6th, 1993 at 9:30 in the morning, you attended at the OPP 7 detachment to advise of the intent to occupy the Camp 8 Ipperwash land? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And on May 6th, 1993 that the 11 peaceful occupation by Stoney Point First Nations 12 commenced? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: On May 7th, 1993 Staff Sergeant 15 McGuire of the Military police advised you that -- or 16 advised -- sorry, you won't know that. May 18th, 1993 17 whether Maynard T. George advised Staff Sergeant Beacock 18 that the Stoney Point First Nations would be having a 19 notice served on the Camp by Scott Ewart? I believe 20 that's something that we reviewed already. 21 A: I remember, like I said, I remember 22 Scott Ewart serving some of these. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: But I -- I'd say yes. 25 Q: And just to go back to the May 7th,
1041 1993 entry, it indicates that the Stoney Point First 2 Nations persons were on the Base passing out pamphlets 3 indicating they would be taking over the women's quarters 4 of the -- or the gas house. 5 Do you recall whether or not that 6 happened? 7 A: No, it never happened. 8 Q: Okay. May 18, 1993 Acting Staff 9 Sergeant Beacock discusses with Chief Carl George and 10 Maynard George that OPP presence was to maintain the 11 peace and enforce the Criminal Code as applicable? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Also May 18, 1993: 14 "Chief Carl George cut lock from a 15 chain that secured a gate onto Base 16 property from Highway 21. Several 17 vehicles and a small structure moved 18 onto Base property. Events were 19 recorded by various media and no 20 Military presence and no incidents. 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Indicates on May 18th, 1993 over onto 23 the second page there, at the top; 24 "Information is that there is some 25 dissension within the Stoney Point
1051 occupiers and the more militant faction 2 is occupying an area by the pond. 3 Information indicates these people to 4 be Dexter Jackson, Bert Manning and 5 Doug Manning." 6 Now is that accurate that, 1) that they 7 were occupying that area and 2) that they were considered 8 by you to be a militant? 9 A: They were occupying that area; yes. 10 To be militant; no. 11 Q: On May 19th, 1993 occupation activity 12 increasing as now a barbecue set up on the firing range; 13 do you recall that? 14 A: No, I can't. 15 Q: May 19, 1993, this is the fourth 16 entry I'm looking at: 17 "Agreement between Chief Carl George 18 historian Maynard George, Ipperwash 19 Park Superintendent Les Kobayashi, 20 Brett Dodson, Aylmer District 21 Enforcement Specialist and Terry 22 Humberstone, MNR First Nation 23 specialist at Ipperwash Provincial 24 Park, agreed that the First Nations 25 would move a small structure into the
1061 Park later 19 or 20 May, 1993. This 2 building to be manned 08:00 to 16:00 3 daily on weekend to dispense First 4 Nation's brochures." 5 I think you have indicated that that was 6 only partially accurate? 7 A: Yes. Because they said we -- they 8 could -- someone could, like in the store part, I -- it 9 was suggested. And then there was, like, another little 10 building, like, at the gate, just enough for one (1) 11 person to stand in. And I -- I kind of think someone was 12 in there handing pamphlets out, but it didn't last very 13 long. 14 Q: All right. And going over to the 15 third page of that document, the first entry: 16 "May 22,, '93 at 19:00, Captain R. 17 Dodson, CFB London calls Forrest OPP 18 Detachment 19:00 advising that a notice 19 had been served on the Military at CFB 20 Ipperwash by a bailiff. The notice 21 indicated that First Nations people 22 would be setting up checkpoints. 23 Checkpoints are to be set up around the 24 parade square (barracks)." 25 Do you know where -- where -- was a notice
1071 served that day indicating checkpoints would be served -- 2 set up? 3 A: Once again, I -- I can't remem -- I 4 can't recall any checkpoints being set up and I still 5 don't -- I don't think there was and I -- I can't recall 6 any. 7 Q: All right. And May 22nd 1993, it's 8 reported that Inspector John Carson and acting Staff 9 Sergeant Beacock attended the Base and discussed at 10 length with you that -- that people, essentially, should 11 not be moving outside of a pre-designated area and you 12 are reported to say that you don't have absolute control 13 over your people's actions. 14 A: Like we may have talked about it, but 15 -- and I -- like I talked to a lot of these ones that 16 were in charge, but I still say I can't recall any 17 checkpoints being set up. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: We may -- like I said, I -- we may 20 have talked about it, but -- 21 Q: Well, this isn't the checkpoint -- 22 A: -- anywhere 23 Q: I'm sorry, this isn't the checkpoint 24 in issue, this is the issue of whether people were now 25 setting up their campsites beyond the area that -- that
1081 was originally designated, according -- 2 A: Well, if -- 3 Q: -- to the Military. 4 A: Not on to the built up area. 5 Q: No. 6 A: We -- there was a few people that 7 moved closer to the built up area -- 8 Q: Right. 9 A: -- that was just on the edge of the 10 bush line. 11 Q: And do you recall having a discussion 12 with the OPP about the propriety of that action? 13 A: I probably did. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But at the time I told -- I think I 16 told them we weren't moving into the built up area, and 17 just that people wanted to move a little closer and 18 that's as far as it went. 19 Q: All right, and finally entry at May 20 24, 1993, it's reported that you telephoned the OPP 21 Forest Detachment to explain that someone had stolen a 22 dog from a First Nations people occupying Camp Ipperwash 23 and that you were going to start proceedings of theft 24 against the Minister of Defence, Kim Campbell, and 25 Sergeant Major Fred White of Camp Ipperwash.
1091 Do you recall making that report? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: Okay. And was any such proceeding, 4 to your knowledge, started for theft? 5 A: For stealing a dog? I can't remember 6 anything like that. 7 Q: All right. Do you recall the 8 incident? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Fair enough, thank you. Can I make 11 this the next exhibit, Commissioner? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-178. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 178 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-178: Document 2002612, OPP 16 Documentation of Ipperwash 17 occupation chronology of 18 events: 15 July '92 TO 24 May 19 '93 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Now, I wonder if you would describe 23 your general with the Ontario Provincial Police, in May 24 of 1993. I know you've talked about a constructive 25 relationship with one (1) particular police officer.
1101 Can you advise as to your gen -- the 2 general relationship with the OPP, in relation to the 3 occupation? 4 A: Well I talked to quite a few of them 5 and, like I say, I can't remember all their names but I - 6 - one (1) of them I talked to was Carson. 7 And I always tried to keep a good 8 relationship with them and let them know every move we 9 made. 10 Q: All right. And was it your view that 11 it was a two-way good relationship? 12 A: Yeah, I -- I thought it was pretty 13 good. 14 Q: All right, and you've talked about 15 the Military personnel and your relations with them, 16 having been a former employee. 17 Now during May of 1993, so the first month 18 of the occupation, was there any significant presence of 19 any members of warrior societies at the Camp? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Were you consulting with the Oneida 22 Longhouse or any warriors at all -- warrior societies at 23 all with respect to the actions -- 24 A: Well, -- 25 Q: -- that you were taking?
1111 A: Yes, later on they did -- a few of 2 them did come and at that time, along with Bernard Cecil 3 George and myself, we went to the Longhouse. 4 Like you have to get invited there and we 5 got invited to more or less tell our story, 'cause they 6 wanted to understand and I -- we thanked them and we said 7 we no longer need your warriors' help. 8 We would like to get underway with, like, 9 talking with the government and if any, you know, anybody 10 else was there it would kind of put a halt to everything 11 and we just thanked them and the Chiefs there said that 12 they would pull any warriors that was there out of there. 13 Q: All right. Now, I was referring you 14 to 1993. Did this event happen in '93 to the best of 15 your recollection? 16 A: I can't remember what year it was, 17 no. 18 Q: All right. Was it -- but it was 19 clearly when you were still at the -- the Army Camp 20 lands? 21 A: Like, there -- there was some there 22 while I was there, a very of them, but the majority of 23 them came after I left from there. 24 Q: Okay. Can you recall who -- who 25 those members were who were at the Army Camp's land while
1121 you were there? During the time period that you were 2 there? 3 A: Like, which -- 4 Q: Which individuals fall into that 5 category as -- as you've characterized -- 6 A: Warriors? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: No, I didn't know any of their names, 9 no. 10 Q: Okay. And did the -- the longhouse 11 abide by your wishes and -- and were these individuals -- 12 did they leave? 13 A: They abided by our wishes, yes. They 14 pulled their warriors out, but there was, you know, a few 15 stragglers like, that went out on their own. They -- 16 they just hung around, they didn't listen -- even listen 17 to their own Chiefs, what they said. 18 Q: Do you know what the purpose of those 19 people -- those warriors being at the Camp was? 20 A: To give their support and -- mainly 21 it was to give their support. 22 Q: All right. And did that pose a 23 difficulty from your perspective? 24 A: It did have a problem -- I had a 25 problem because we couldn't more or less do anything.
1131 Like, it -- it messed up all my -- my plans to have a 2 peaceful stay there and if there was any other group 3 there it would look like -- to me it would look like we 4 were starting a confrontation or something and that's the 5 furthest thing from my mind. I didn't want anyone to 6 think that. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: So I had to, you know, put a -- put a 9 stop to it any way I knew and as fast as I could. 10 Q: Now, was this -- was the difficulty a 11 difficulty of perception? In other words that outsiders 12 might perceive that with the presence of these 13 individuals it could lead to violence or was this in fact 14 a -- a real concern you had that it would lead to 15 violence? 16 A: The concern I had, it -- it would, 17 like, everybody wouldn't have the same id -- look at the 18 same ideas I had and if there's someone that don't 19 listen, then they've got different ideas and that's when 20 everything starts falling apart. 21 Q: All right. Okay. 22 A: It's what I didn't -- I tried to 23 stop. 24 Q: Okay. Now, to your knowledge, did 25 any of these individual warriors bring any firearms or
1141 weapons onto the -- the Camp lands while you were there? 2 A: Not that I know of. 3 Q: All right. And I should ask this 4 now, did you move onto the Camp lands yourself? 5 A: I moved on there, yes. 6 Q: And did you have a trailer? 7 A: I had a -- I think it was a sixteen 8 (16) foot trailer or twelve (12) foot trailer, I forget 9 now. 10 Q: Did you -- did you also maintain a 11 separate residence elsewhere? 12 A: Well, like everybody else we moved 13 here and there, yes. 14 Q: And where was your other residence? 15 A: I had my -- my own house on Kettle 16 Point. 17 Q: All right. Did you divide your time 18 in some way between the Army Camp and Kettle Point? 19 A: Mainly on the weekends I stayed there 20 or I spent a few nights during the week, but the majority 21 of my time I stayed at home because, you know, I had -- I 22 got two (2) boys and my -- and my wife, so that was my 23 home so, you know, that's where I lived. 24 Q: And by which you mean Kettle Point? 25 A: Yes.
1151 Q: Okay. Now, at some point in time did 2 you have a -- was there an election, a Band election or 3 sorry -- a Band Council election at Stoney Point? 4 A: Yes, there was. 5 Q: And did you stand for election? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And were you elected? 8 A: Yes, I was. 9 Q: And what were you elected to? 10 A: The Chief of Stoney Point. 11 Q: Do you recall when that election 12 occurred? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Perhaps you would go to Tab 22, and 15 it's part of Inquiry Document Number 1007621, and it's 16 the first article in -- in the Tab entitled 'Bosanquet 17 Wants Quick Settlement of Native's Camp Ipperwash 18 Occupation' sorry, to the Sarnia Observer. And it 19 appears to be dated June 23, 1993. 20 And it indicates in the last column, the 21 following: 22 "Chief George and the new council were 23 elected recently, but the residents are 24 also re-establishing traditional forms 25 of leadership including a circle of
1161 Elders made up from some of the 2 remaining original residents of Stoney 3 Point. 4 He said the group has been selected -- 5 sorry, has, sorry: 6 -- has asked the Military to hold off 7 using the Camp until ownership of the 8 land can be established by the courts." 9 And it's part of Inquiry Document Number 10 1007621, but I appreciate there's a number of documents 11 in that particular tab. In any event I'll just carry on: 12 "The group carried out what is 13 described as a legal seizure and 14 repossession of Camp Ipperwash and the 15 adjoining Ipperwash Provincial Park. 16 They haven't used any acts of 17 aggression, Chief George says." 18 So my first question is -- is it -- were 19 you elected some time just prior to June 23, 1993, as 20 Chief of Stoney Point? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was there also a form of 23 traditional leadership or decision making that was 24 instituted at the same time, involving the Eld -- a 25 circle of Elders?
1171 A: The -- there probably was. I kind of 2 -- kind of recall it, yes. 3 Q: Well, perhaps I can ask you to 4 describe for us, for the period of time that you were 5 Chief, what was the decision making process employed by 6 the community, at the Army Camp? 7 A: What was the decision? 8 Q: How were decisions made? 9 A: Oh, we went to -- we put this 10 building up that was the -- the foundation, like it was a 11 cement pad that was already on the range and so we used 12 the -- the floating pad that was there and we just built 13 a building on top of it, and we used that as a church, 14 what we call a argument hall, a meeting place; that's 15 where we had all of our meetings. 16 Q: All right. And were decisions made 17 along the consensus model or was it by a vote, if you 18 will, of -- by the Chief and Band Council members? 19 A: On consensus. 20 Q: And did the Elders have any 21 particular role to play with respect to the decisions 22 that were made? 23 A: We took their advice and that's when 24 we made -- had consensus with the rest of the people 25 also.
1181 Q: All right. Do you recall who the 2 initial Band councillors were, after this election? 3 A: Well, I'd have to go back to the 4 document but just recalling on memory, I can only say a 5 few and there was Clifford George, Rose Manning, Janet 6 Cloud, Maynard T. George; that's the only four (4) that I 7 can remember. 8 Q: All right. And this is in 1993? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Was Glenn George a councillor at that 11 time? 12 A: Oh yes, he was too. 13 Q: All right. Thank you. And were 14 there community meetings, were they held on a -- on a 15 regular basis or as- needed basis? 16 A: In the beginning it was as needed, 17 but we tried to put them on, like, a regular basis. 18 Q: All right. From time to time were 19 members of the Ontario Provincial Police invited to any 20 of these meetings that you were at? 21 A: I believe maybe once or twice they 22 were. Like, I -- I -- if I can recall correctly, I think 23 it was Rick Bouwman from Grand Bend Detachment and I 24 think he was invited to at least one (1) -- one (1) 25 meeting we had more or less to get his advice and let him
1191 know what our next move was. 2 Q: All right. Do you recall whether or 3 not another police officer named George Speck would 4 attend from time to time? 5 A: No, I can't. 6 Q: All right. Were members of the 7 Military invited to any of these meetings from time to 8 time? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now, my understanding is that in 1994 11 for a brief period of time there was another -- well, 12 there was another elect -- band election in '94; is that 13 right, at Stoney Point? 14 A: There probably was. 15 Q: And do you recall whether you were 16 re-elected Chief? 17 A: I only remember one (1) -- one (1) 18 where I was elected in. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: If there was another one I can't 21 rightly remember that one. 22 Q: All right. How long were you Chief, 23 then, the elected Chief of the Stoney Point? 24 A: Maybe for just -- maybe a year, maybe 25 a little bit longer.
1201 Q: All right. And did -- did Maynard T. 2 George succeed you? 3 A: Well, in the beginning, the people 4 wanted me in charge because Maynard T. George was just 5 going off and doing things on his own and they wanted 6 somebody to more or less control them. 7 Q: Is it fair to say that -- that 8 Maynard T. George had -- had an abuse -- substance abuse 9 difficulty? 10 A: Well, at that -- that time there, he 11 -- he liked his alcohol and he -- he liked his Tylenol 3s 12 at the same time. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: So he was more or less addicted to 15 them. 16 Q: And as a result did he take some time 17 off from that position? 18 A: Yes, he did. 19 Q: And were you then acting Chief? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And is it fair to say that you 22 remained Acting Chief until you left the Army Camp? 23 A: Well, that's about the time we had 24 our election, I believe, around about that time when 25 everything started happening and I think after I left --
1211 I left the Camp was -- I think it was in the summer some 2 time -- '94 or '95, somewhere around there. 3 Q: All right. Okay. I wonder if we'd 4 make the -- this newspaper article the next exhibit, 5 please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-179. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-179: Document 1007621 Sarnia 9 Observer article June 28/'93 10 "Bosanquet Wants Quick 11 Settlement of Natives' Camp 12 Ipperwash Occupation" 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, I just want to go back to the 16 issue of -- of the presence of -- of warriors and I'd 17 like you to got Document -- at Tab 20, Inquiry Document 18 Number 1007625, the document from the Ontario Native 19 Affairs Secretariat. The cover e-mail is dated June 1, 20 1993 -- or covering memorandum, I should say. 21 Now, these are minutes of an inter- 22 ministerial official's committee on aboriginal emergency 23 meetings held May 27, 1993 and I wonder if you would just 24 go to the second page on the back side, so it says page 4 25 in the bottom left -- bottom right corner.
1221 And there's the title "Camp Ipperwash" 2 sub(a) MNR Rod Baldwin -- Ron Baldwin, excuse me; do you 3 see that? 4 A: On the -- 5 Q: Go to the second -- second page, or 6 the third page maybe is the way to do it, on the back 7 side. You see the heading "Camp Ipperwash"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And sub(a) MNR Ron Baldwin? 10 And he's reporting that there was a meeting, apparently, 11 with chief Bressette and the MNR in which chief 12 Bressette, or at least in which there were concerns 13 raised, verified by the OPP of the presence of warriors 14 from other First Nations including Oneida, Saugeen, and 15 Moraviantown and this is a meeting dated May 27, '93. 16 So is this the -- the concern -- is this 17 one (1) of the concerns rose with respect to the presence 18 of warriors which then prompted your meeting with 19 longhouse? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Now I should just ask 22 you, what is your understanding of a warrior society? 23 A: A warrior society is Mohawk and more 24 or less they're there to give their support to whoever 25 needs it.
1231 Q: And what is your understanding of -- 2 of -- of what that means; to give support? And what is 3 the role of the warriors, to your understanding? 4 A: Well, give us support, that it's -- I 5 mean anything. Like if it's peaceful or if it's 6 militant, they give their support on anything. 7 Q: All right, and did you have any 8 impression with respect to what -- what the intention was 9 of these particular warriors, in terms of how they were 10 going to give their support? 11 A: Well, I -- like I said, I didn't want 12 anything to get out of hand and like our intentions was 13 supposed to be peaceful, and that's why I went to the 14 longhouse and spoke to the chiefs to tell them our story, 15 because I didn't want, you know, anything to get out -- 16 get out of hand. 17 Q: And did you have any impression from 18 the longhouse that -- that -- that they would not abide 19 by your wishes in terms of the peaceful nature of the 20 occupation? 21 A: No, the chiefs there, they -- they 22 listened and they -- they agreed. They said, yes, you 23 should get on with your talking with the government. So 24 that -- at that point we, you know, we told our story and 25 we thanked them and after the meeting we had a meal and
1241 we went our separate ways and shortly after that they 2 called their warriors out and they left. 3 And like I said, a few of them, 4 stragglers, stayed behind because they really didn't 5 listen to their chiefs. 6 Q: That was your impression? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And were you -- did they give you any 9 -- any evidence or signs that they were going to try to 10 alter this from a peaceful confr -- occupation to some 11 form of aggressive or violent occupation? 12 A: The ones that were left, or -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- the chiefs? 15 Q: The ones that were left. 16 A: Well, they didn't give any kind of 17 indication but I was worried about it, yes. 18 Q: All right. And did you take any 19 steps to deal with that concern? 20 A: I believe we had a meeting at Kettle 21 Point that time, with all -- most of the -- all of the 22 chiefs came down to Kettle Point and I think we -- we had 23 a big discussion about that. 24 Q: All right. And you say, "all the 25 chiefs." Are these the chiefs from the longhouse or are
1251 there other communities represented? 2 A: There was other communities that were 3 there. 4 Q: And was an understanding ultimately 5 reached? 6 A: Yes, they all said that they were 7 going to take care of their -- their people and make them 8 withdraw. 9 Q: And can you recall approximately when 10 this occurred? 11 A: It had to be, I don't know, '94 -- 12 somewhere around there. 13 Q: All right. Fair enough. And were 14 the -- your concerns resolved in 1994, then? 15 A: With the, like, the warriors that 16 were there? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: The majority of them, yes, they -- 19 they all left, pretty well. Like I said, there was, 20 maybe -- at that time after that, there was maybe one (1) 21 or two (2) that stayed and that's the way it stayed until 22 after I left. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recall the names of the 24 one (1) or two (2) who stayed? 25 A: No, I -- I didn't take notice to who
1261 -- whoever they were. 2 Q: All right. Now, do you recall ever 3 receiving any official response from the Ontario 4 Government in relation to your claim, if you will, with 5 respect to the Ipperwash Provincial Park or in relation 6 to your notice that you served asserting rights over the 7 Provincial Park? 8 A: There was a lot of letters sent and I 9 probably got a letter that explained -- and they tried to 10 explain that we didn't have a right to the land. But 11 like I said, there was a lot of letters and I can't -- I 12 can't remember all of them. 13 Q: Were they prepared to negotiate for 14 the return of the land or -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. And I wonder if you'd go 17 to the document at Tab 21, then, of your book of 18 documents. It's part of Inquiry Document Number 1006004. 19 And if you'd just go to the third page, it's a draft 20 letter to -- to Mr. George, to yourself, and -- to be 21 signed by Howard Hampton. I -- I stress it's a draft 22 letter. 23 I wonder if you would look at it for a 24 moment, in particular the third paragraph which states: 25 "You should be aware that the lands
1271 which comprise Ipperwash Provincial 2 Park have no relationship to the lands 3 which were the subject of the Federal 4 action in 1942, rather the lands on 5 which the Provincial Park is situate, 6 were surrendered for sale by the 7 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point in 8 1928 to the Federal Government and were 9 subsequently patented by Canada in 1929 10 to a private individual pursuant to 11 Federal Patent Number 21685. 12 In 1938 the Ontario Government, for 13 purposes of establishing a provincial 14 Park, purchased a hundred and nine 15 (109) acres from four (4) private 16 individuals. In consequence, Ontario 17 believes it is in lawful possession of 18 the lands comprising Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park." 20 Now, does that express the sentiments that 21 you understood to be the position of the Ontario 22 Government? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And do you recall whether or not you 25 received a final form of that letter?
1281 A: I probably did, it sounds familiar. 2 Q: All right. Would you kindly make 3 that the next exhibit? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-180. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-180: Document 1006004 E-mail from 7 Jayne Layton, MNR Legal 8 Services Branch to 9 Distribution List Re: Final 10 Draft Letters - I.P.P. June 11 01/'93 11:55 A.M. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Now, what was your reaction to the 15 position and the reliance by Ontario, or the apparent 16 reliance by Ontario, on the 1928 surrender and subsequent 17 patent and sale? 18 A: Well, back then they -- they had 19 Indian Agents and they took care of everything. And at 20 that time, even down at Kettle Point, they had some 21 people from the States, the Potawatomi. And a few of 22 them young -- younger ones came to Kettle Point. 23 And if I can remember correctly, a few of 24 the minutes and councils that I did read, they had a 25 problem with the Potawatomis because they were coming to
1291 Kettle Point and they were selling the shale and selling 2 the kettles. 3 And then they moved to the, like the west 4 Ipperwash beach and also with the -- the beachfront on 5 Stoney Point, Indian Agents -- one (1) of them approached 6 three (3) youths around -- I think it said that they were 7 around about fifteen (15) to sixteen (16). 8 And they said they wanted to buy the 9 lands, the beachfronts and they offered them fifteen (15) 10 I think it was, fifteen dollars ($15) a piece for their 11 signature. And at that time, fifteen dollars ($15) was a 12 lot of money, so for fifteen (15), sixteen (16) year old 13 boy. 14 So naturally they signed their name 15 because they weren't -- you know, part of Kettle Point or 16 Stoney Point and that's how all this problem started 17 with, you know, the beachfronts. 18 And that's how they -- it was taken from 19 the reserve. 20 Q: So did you accept the Ontario 21 Government's position that the surrender was a valid one? 22 A: No, I wasn't -- I didn't like it at 23 all, how it occurred. 24 Q: And was the Ontario Government 25 prepared to -- to discuss your view of the surrender and
1301 the validity or lack thereof, of it? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did they make any offer of -- of a 4 compromise or -- in terms of joint usage or compensation, 5 to your knowledge? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And what was your reaction to that 8 lack of response? 9 A: Well, I expected it and it's only 10 normal, it comes from the Federal or Provincial 11 Government. They promise a lot of stuff and they give 12 nothing. They never, ever did. 13 Q: Thank you. Commissioner, it's noon. 14 I wonder if it's appropriate to take the lunch break at 15 this point? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure, if you 17 want to break now. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh, would you like to-- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 20 go a little longer or -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, we can go a 22 little longer -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's up to 24 you. If you -- 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, I'm happy to
1311 proceed til 12:30 -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 3 go to 12:15? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12:15? All right, 5 thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: All right, now I'd like you to turn 9 to Tab 23, please, of your -- I'm sorry, we should make 10 that the next exhibit, if I haven't -- 11 THE REGISTRAR: You have. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I have? Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: If we could go to Tab 23, then, 16 please. This is Inquiry Document Number 2001235, it's a 17 letter by Inspector Carson to the Superintendent Number 1 18 District, dated June 9, 1993 with an attached Notice to 19 the Department of National Defence dated June 9, 1993. 20 And my first question is: Do you 21 recognise the signature on the bottom of the Notice? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I think you're looking on the wrong
1321 page. If you look -- 2 A: Twenty (20) -- 3 Q: No, no. The right -- no, turn it 4 back and look on the right-hand side, the right -- 5 A: Oh. 6 Q: That's it. It's entitled "Notice" -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes. Is that your signature? 9 A: That's my signature. 10 Q: All right, and there's an indication 11 that at approximately 10:30 a.m. on June the 9th, Scott 12 Ewart served that Notice under the Trespass to Property 13 Act which was accompanied by a certificate in that from 14 the Registrar Indian Lands on Sergeant Major John Taylor 15 at Camp Ipperwash. 16 First of all, was such a -- was that 17 Notice, to your knowledge, served on that day on the 18 Camp? 19 A: It probably was, but like I said 20 before, it's really hard to recall all these things. 21 Q: All right. Well, do you recall the 22 Notice being served, let's put it that way? 23 A: Well, I can recall -- I can remember 24 a few of them being served but -- 25 Q: Well, let me --
1331 A: It probably was. 2 Q: -- let me. Okay. Now the Notice 3 indicates it's giving notice to the Department of 4 National Defence with respect to the Camp Ipperwash Cadet 5 Camp. 6 And it is serving notice that they, the 7 Military, are to leave the property known as Stoney Point 8 First Nation Number 30 -- 43 and legally described as 9 being near the mouth of the River Aux Sables in the said 10 Township of Bosanquet and County of Lambton and bounded 11 on the north-west by Lake Huron and on the south-east, 12 north-east and south-west by the lake road lots and the 13 18th and 19th concessions of the said Township of 14 Bosanquet. 15 And that they are to leave this property 16 within thirty (30) days from the -- date of this service. 17 And that they are further prohibited from re-entering the 18 land other than to clean up and remove the Military and 19 manmade contaminants of war. And then there's a penalty 20 proposed if they fail to do that. 21 And at the backside of that document is 22 the certificate from the Registrar of Indian Land. 23 Now, my first question is: Do you recall 24 what area of property this was meant to -- to refer to in 25 terms of the Notice to Vacate?
1341 A: Well, to go back, you said about the 2 Aux Sables River, that goes back quite a few years 3 because my understanding that the people lived -- like 4 the land base was initially bigger than what it is today. 5 It was quite a bit bigger but again there 6 -- like the people that was there, there was, like, a 7 group here or groups there and the Indian Agents went in 8 and if they didn't see anyone there, then they said, 9 Well, there's no one living here. 10 But back in those days the people had to 11 move around for hunting purposes. And the Indian Agents 12 they mainly just went along like a path where the highway 13 was, is right now, and that they didn't see anybody, they 14 said no one was here. So that kind of explains why the - 15 - the Aux Sables River was mentioned. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: That's my understanding anyway. 18 Q: Well, what was the primary purpose of 19 this -- of delivering this document to the Military Base? 20 A: Again, Maynard T. George wrote a lot 21 of these up and he kind of got the whole broad -- like 22 everything and brought all into one (1). And just more 23 or less I guess to say that from -- where the Stoney 24 Point land is now, it was bigger than that and to leave - 25 - like all of the land.
1351 Q: All right. And who should be leaving 2 the land? 3 A: Well, it would be the Military. 4 Q: And so was part -- the purpose of 5 this document then to advise the Military that they 6 should leave the entire Military reserve including the 7 barracks in the built-up area? 8 A: More or less, yes. 9 Q: And what was -- did you -- what was 10 the Military's reaction? Did you have a meeting to 11 discuss it? 12 A: I don't think so. It was more or 13 less just to get the point across to them, because we -- 14 I knew very well like we said this to them, then they're 15 going to go to their superiors and, you know, it's going 16 to go even higher than that. 17 Q: And if you look at the letter, the 18 covering letter by -- by Inspector Carson, first page, 19 last line. He's indicating that Maynard George, I assume 20 that means Maynard T. George, had stated that the above 21 notice was served, giving the Military thirty (30) days 22 to vacate the premises or their, quote, "the Natives", 23 close quote, next step may be to move in with the 24 bulldozers. 25 Now, to your knowledge was -- was that
1361 within your intentions if -- if they did not leave? 2 A: That was not my intentions to -- like 3 that's using force and I -- I didn't have that in mind. 4 Q: And in fact, was any -- were the 5 bulldozers -- brought in after thirty (30) days? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay, fair enough. We'll make this 8 the next exhibit please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-181. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-181: Document 2001235 OPP Letter 12 June 09/'93 (12:50 Hrs) to 13 Superintendent OPP Chatham, 14 from E.B. Beacock NO. 2156 15 Acting Staff Sergeant Re: 16 First Nations occupation CFB 17 Ipperwash, Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 21 would be a good time to break. We're close enough to 22 12:15 and we can break now, is that all right? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, that's 24 absolutely fine. Thank you very much, Commissioner. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands
1371 adjourned until 1:30. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 12:14 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 1:32 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: Good afternoon. I wonder, Mr. George 11 -- or Mr. Tolsma, if you would please go to Tab 24 and 12 it's Inquiry Document Number 2002536. It's a letter 13 dated June 11, 1993 from acting Staff Sergeant Beacock to 14 the Superintendent, Number 1 District Headquarters. 15 And the officer is relaying that he is 16 informed that yourself and Maynard George attended 17 Bosanquet Township office on June 14, 1993 with large 18 maps indicating land claims from Ravenswood Road, east to 19 Park Hill and north to Goderich with the exception of the 20 village of Grand Bend. 21 And I'm just wondering if you recall that 22 attendance and what the purpose of it was? 23 A: Yes, I recall that visit there. And 24 why went there is more or less to compare their maps and 25 I guess we weren't expected at that time because there
1381 was one (1) gentleman that let us in and he asked us to 2 wait in a certain room and -- where all the maps were and 3 he went out and told the guy that was in charge and right 4 away he came back shortly after that and he -- they kind 5 of rushed us out of there. 6 Because while we were in there, they had 7 all these big maps all spread out and marked on 8 boundaries, quite a while ago where the reserve lands 9 actually were. But that's a long, long time ago, back -- 10 quite a ways back. 11 And they rushed us out of the room and 12 they took those -- like the maps were like in a big book 13 and they took them out of the -- the place there and -- 14 so we just, you know, showed them our maps that we had 15 and the guy just listened to us and well he agreed to 16 some things, but mainly he just listened and we left. 17 But we wanted to come back again and I 18 think we made the second visit and we asked to see some 19 of those books and a few of them were -- weren't there 20 any more. So they moved them to a different location. 21 Q: And you indicated that it was to 22 compare maps, is one (1) -- the reason why you attended 23 at that office. According to this letter, it indicates 24 that -- suggested that that the lar -- you had brought 25 large maps indicating land claims.
1391 Was it your intention to assert a land 2 claim through this attendance at the Registrar for the 3 Township? 4 A: No, no. 5 Q: All right. We'll make that the next 6 exhibit, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-182. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-182: Inquiry Document Number 11 2002536. Letter dated June 12 11, 1993 from acting Staff 13 Sergeant Beacock to the 14 Superintendent Number 1 15 District Headquarters. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: And if you would go next to Tab 24, 19 which is Inquiry Document Number -- sorry, 25. Inquiry 20 Document Number 1007819. It's a letter dated June 14, 21 1993 from Ron Baldwin, District Manager with the Ministry 22 of Natural Resources, I believe, to Chief Tom Bressette. 23 And the contents, essentially, say that in 24 the second paragraph: 25 "Mr. Maynard George and Mr. Carl George
1401 have approached the staff of Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park on a number of issues 3 recently." 4 And it's relaying the -- he's relaying -- 5 relaying the government's possess -- position that the 6 Ontario -- the Provincial Park is -- is, in fact, 7 Ontario-owned property. 8 I just would like to know whether or not 9 this letter or its contents were shared with you by Chief 10 Bressette? 11 A: I got a letter -- well, I -- I don't 12 see it here, but I read it at -- at my house. And I 13 remember getting that letter, yes. 14 Q: This letter; a copy of the letter to 15 Chief Bressette or another letter? 16 A: Well, I -- I don't have it but I 17 can't really -- 18 Q: Another letter you're talking about 19 with similar contents? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay, fair enough. Did you have a 22 discussion with Chief Bressette in or around this time 23 period, June of '93, with respect to the government -- 24 provincial government's position concerning ownership of 25 the Park?
1411 A: I probably did. Because I -- I had 2 quite a few meetings with them. 3 Q: Do you recall whether or not Chief 4 Bressette or at least whose position he agreed with? 5 A: Well, a lot of stuff he did agree 6 with. But there's something he didn't agree with 7 because, you know, I -- I didn't know the legal stuff and 8 how the government operates. I just do everything the 9 simple way and the best that I knew. 10 Q: I guess what I'm asking is whether or 11 not Chief Bressette advised you as to whether he agreed 12 with Ontario's pos -- excuse me, possession at the 13 province owned park? 14 A: Yeah. Yes, he did. 15 Q: All right. And what was your -- your 16 reaction to that? 17 A: Well, I -- I knew that the province 18 owned it but in order to get it back, you know, he said 19 the federal government and the provincial government has 20 to talk and is that's the only way. But which I already 21 knew, but still, with what was happening and when we were 22 on the land, somewhere along the line they're going to 23 have to talk. 24 Q: All right. Now, you mentioned this 25 morning an incident or a situation involving Clifford
1421 George and a toll. 2 I'm wondering whether you can advise the 3 Commission about your knowledge about this situation? 4 A: Well, we -- we wanted to set up like 5 a toll gate up for people that wanted to get into the 6 Park like just to more or less just to get the attention 7 of the government again. And I -- I think we told the 8 poli -- OPP's that. And a few people, non-Natives, went 9 in and they were in support of us and there's other 10 people that went in also, like, Native people. 11 And when Clifford got arrested he -- he 12 went in and he says, well, he said, Let's see if they're 13 going to arrest an old man. So you know, we couldn't 14 talk him out of it. He says, Well, let's see what 15 they're going to do. So he went and he paid and they 16 went up to his car and they arrested him, pulled him out 17 of his car and they took him in. 18 Q: And were you in -- in -- was the 19 community at Aazhoodena in support of setting up this 20 toll gate? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was the purpose of the toll 23 gate? 24 A: To get support and to get the 25 attention.
1431 Q: Were you actually charging fees or 2 admission fees to get into the Park? Was that the 3 intention? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And where was this toll gate located? 6 A: Matheson Drive. 7 Q: Now were you present at an incident 8 which reportedly occurred involving a Scott Ewart and an 9 OPP officer, surrounding the toll gate? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you tell us, to the best of your 12 recollection, about that? 13 A: I don't know what was said actually. 14 But I can recall Scott Ewart parked on the side of the 15 road, watching. 16 And I went over to see him, and I got in 17 his jeep on the passenger side and one (1) of the 18 officers approached him, coming up from behind, and he 19 had his window down, and he gave him a smart remark 20 like -- 21 Q: And did you get -- 22 A: -- I can't say exactly what he said. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: But it was a smart remark. And he 25 looked in, and he seen me sitting there and he backed off
1441 and took off right away quick. 2 Q: All right. And do you know who this 3 police officer was? 4 A: I can't say for sure, no. 5 Q: Fair enough. And this incident 6 occurred at the time that the toll gate was set up? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: How long did the toll gate stay set 9 up? 10 A: For only about three (3) hours. 11 Q: Okay. And do you recall what day 12 that was? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Perhaps you would look at the Tab 54 15 of your documents, it's Inquiry Document Number 1002264, 16 the anticipated evidence of J. Scott Ewart. 17 Now, let me just ask you this first of 18 all. Do you remember, was this -- did the incident -- do 19 you remember what year the incident occurred? 20 A: The year? 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: It had to be late '93, in '93 near 23 the end or '94, somewhere around there, I'm not -- I 24 can't say for sure. 25 Q: All right. And do you recall what
1451 month it occurred, or what season? 2 A: Well, it was nice and warm out by 3 then. 4 Q: So likely the summer? 5 A: It probably was the summer, yes. 6 Q: Okay. That document isn't as helpful 7 as I thought it would be. All right. All right. 8 Did you become aware of an incident 9 involving the reported shooting of a helicopter over the 10 Army Camp Base? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And where were you the night of the 13 reported helicopter shooting? 14 A: I was at my home on Kettle Point. 15 Q: Do you recall what day that -- or 16 what night that was? 17 A: The day, no I can't remember, I just 18 kind of remember that -- Robert George came and he told 19 me that -- that there was a helicopter flying around and 20 he said, Somebody shot at it, so he says, And we gotta go 21 down there right away. 22 Q: All right. And Robert George is also 23 known as Nobby? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And he came to your house
1461 at Kettle Point -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and told you this? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And as a result, did you go and 6 attend at the Army Camp? 7 A: On the way down there, he told me, he 8 said, he said Abraham George shot at the helicopter and 9 so we went there first -- 10 Q: And is Abraham George also known as 11 Hamster? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you. So you attended at Mr. 14 George's tent or trailer? 15 A: Yes. Robert George done most of the 16 talking. He asked him, he says, did you shoot at the 17 helicopter, and he says, Yes, I shot up in the air at it, 18 he said, I don't know if I hit it or not, he says, 19 Because -- and he says, What kind of a gun do you got. 20 So he pulled out a, to the best of my 21 recollection, it was a shotgun, and he says, okay, he 22 says, I'm gonna have to take this home with me to get it 23 out of here, and he -- and Abraham says, Yeah, okay, he 24 said he agreed with it. 25 And at that time I think we went around
1471 and talked to other people because they said that they 2 were shining lights at the cars going by or something. 3 And there was lights back in the -- amongst the trees and 4 they just -- it was a weird night because you knew 5 something was happening, because there was, you know, 6 lights here and there and something -- you had just a 7 uneasy feeling. 8 And a lot of the people said, Well, we 9 heard something. We heard a noise, sounded like a 10 firecracker or something like that. And -- and other 11 people, I can't remember exactly who they were, but they 12 said they seen all these lights shining now and again and 13 they said something was about to happen. 14 Q: Now did anyone else admit to you that 15 they had shot at a helicopter that night? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did anyone admit to seeing Abraham 18 George shoot at the helicopter that night? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And as a result of receiving that 21 information what, if anything, did you do? 22 A: Well, Robert George took the gun home 23 with him. 24 Q: All right. Did you go with him? 25 A: To --
1481 Q: To -- out -- back out of the Army 2 camp or did you stay? 3 A: Yeah, I went back with him, yeah. 4 Q: Did you have any conversation with 5 the occupants with respect to the propriety of their 6 shining lights at cars? 7 A: Yeah, I asked that question and they 8 said no. 9 Q: Did you see any lights or spotlights 10 out and on, or at least out in -- in -- on the premises? 11 A: No, I never seen anything. 12 Q: All right, and were you interviewed 13 by the police about this incident in 1993? 14 A: I believe so, yes. 15 Q: Would you kindly go to Tab 32 of your 16 book of documents. Inquiry Document Number 2003514 and 17 you'll see that the first page appears to be handwritten 18 interview report, with respect to an interview conducted 19 of yourself on August 26th, 1993 and on the back of the 20 page is a transcription of that interview. 21 My first question is: Is that your 22 signature at the bottom of the handwritten interview 23 report? 24 A: Yes, it is. 25 Q: And do you recall being interviewed
1491 on August 26th, 1993, by a J.K. Potts? 2 A: Vaguely. 3 Q: All right, the -- 4 A: I don't remember -- 5 Q: -- police -- 6 A: -- real clear. 7 Q: -- officer? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And would you take a moment, perhaps 10 we'll -- I'll review this statement with you: 11 "On the -- on the 23 August, '93, 12 Monday night, I was at home in Kettle 13 Point and Robert George came and got me 14 at about 7:30 p.m. and told me a 15 helicopter was shot. 16 Robert said, You better go down and see 17 what was going on. Robert and I came 18 to the reserve. We went to the blue 19 tent and I asked if anyone had shone on 20 any cars on the highway. 21 The answer we got was, Yes, we did, and 22 asked them not to be shining lights on 23 the highway. 24 I asked if anyone has any guns and has 25 took a shot at the helicopter. Robert
1501 interjected and we don't want to know. 2 They started telling us of noises and 3 flashlights in the bush. 4 We proceeded to the next camp west and 5 we honked the horn. Harry George came 6 out. We asked if anyone has a 7 spotlight not to shine it on the road. 8 We explained that someone could be 9 blinded driving and it's hard to focus 10 and it could cause an accident. 11 Some more people came out and I asked 12 if they heard any shots. Some said, 13 Like a firecracker or something like 14 that. They didn't know what it was and 15 didn't pay much attention. 16 We repeatedly reminded them of the 17 spotlight and went home." 18 Now is that the statement that you 19 provided to police officer Potts? 20 A: Yeah, that -- that sounds pretty well 21 it. 22 Q: All right. I'd like to make that the 23 next exhibit. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-183. 25
1511 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-183: Inquiry Document Number 2 2003514 Handwritten interview 3 report, with respect to an 4 interview conducted on August 5 26th, 1993 together with a 6 transcription of that 7 interview. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: Did you tell Officer Potts about the 11 gun that night, on August the 26th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you tell Officer Potts about what 14 Robert had told you, concerning Abraham George? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you tell him that Abraham George 17 in fact had admitted that he had shot at the helicopter? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Why didn't you tell him any of this 20 important information? 21 A: Well, Abraham was an Elder and, you 22 know, we try to protect our Elders and he didn't need the 23 aggravation so I didn't say anything because I was trying 24 to protect him and I didn't want him to be bothered. 25 Q: Did you give interviews to the media
1521 with respect to the allegations that someone from Stoney 2 Point had in fact shot at a helicopter? 3 A: I don't think so, no. I can't 4 remember ever saying that. 5 Q: All right. Perhaps you would go to - 6 - do you recall giving some interviews though, do you 7 not -- 8 A: Oh yes. 9 Q: -- about the incident? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Would you go to Tab 26 please? 12 And it's Inquiry Document Number 2001744 or at least part 13 of that. It's an article entitled, "Band Chief Denies 14 Natives Shot at Copter." It's article in the Globe and 15 Mail; do you have that in front of you? 16 A: What tab did you say it was? 27? 17 Q: Sorry, it's 26. 18 A: Yes. I remember that. 19 Q: All right. And if you look at the 20 first paragraph, I'll read it to you. 21 "The Acting Chief of the Stoney Point 22 First Nation says a shot fired at a 23 helicopter on Monday may have been 24 staged to discredit the Indian Band's 25 attempts to get back land expropriated
1531 by the federal government. "I feel -- 2 I get the feeling we were set up," said 3 Acting Chief Carl George, said 4 yesterday." 5 And then if you go down further in that 6 column, second last paragraph of the first column. 7 "Mr. George said he doesn't know who 8 did the shooting or what really 9 happened. 'The Military could have 10 arranged it. I'm not saying that they 11 did.' 12 But he is suspicious of what provincial 13 police investigators say they have 14 found in search of the occupying 15 Natives' trailers and tents." 16 Now, do you recall making statements to 17 the effect that you had the feeling that Stoney Point was 18 getting set up and that you did not know who did the 19 shooting? 20 A: Yes. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make that the next 22 exhibit please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-184. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 184. 25
1541 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-184: Globe and Mail article 2 entitled, "Band Chief Denies 3 Natives Shot at Copter." 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: To next go please to Tab 28, which is 7 Inquiry Document Number 4000325. It's an article in the 8 Toronto Star, published August 25, 1993, entitled, 9 "Sniper Fires on Military Helicopter." 10 If you go to the second page of that 11 article about half way down is the following: 12 "Carl George, Acting Chief of the 13 breakaway Stoney Point Band admitted 14 that Band members had been shining 15 spotlights on Military aircraft but he 16 said he had no knowledge of who may 17 have fired the shot?" 18 Do you recall saying that or words to that 19 affect? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make that the next 22 exhibit please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-185. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-185: Inquiry Document Number
1551 400325. Article in the 2 Toronto Star published August 3 25, 1993 entitled, "Sniper 4 Fires on MilitaryHelicopter." 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 7 Q: And finally if you would go to Tab 30 8 please, Inquiry Document Number 2001717. It's another 9 article from the Toronto Star dated August 26th, 1993. 10 First paragraph: 11 "'Natives occupying a Military Base 12 have been set up to take the blame for 13 a bullet that was fired at a Canadian 14 Forces helicopter this week,' acting 15 Chief Carl George said yesterday." 16 And then a little bit further down, the 17 third paragraph: 18 "Provincial police say Elders from the 19 native group living in tents on the 20 base north of Sarnia told investigators 21 they believe one (1) of their people 22 was responsible for shooting the 23 helicopter." 24 And then further two (2) paragraphs 25 subsequent to that:
1561 "But George said yesterday that story 2 is just a rumour. It was a surprise to 3 our people that this statement was 4 going around. Nobody seems to know 5 where it came from", 6 End of quote. Do you recall making those 7 statements or words to that effect? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: I'll make that the next exhibit, 10 please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-186. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 186. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-186: Document 2001717 Toronto Star 15 Article "Natives Cry Foul in 16 Copter Shooting" August 17 26/'93 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Mr. Tolsma, why did you tell the 21 media that you thought the Military was setting the 22 Stoney Point group up and that you had no idea who shot 23 at the helicopter, given the information and the 24 conversation you had had with Robert George and Abraham 25 George?
1571 A: Well, as I said first, I -- I didn't 2 want anybody bothering Abraham and he was one (1) of the 3 Elders that everybody looked up to. And the gun we got 4 was a shotgun and I'm not too good at weapons, but as far 5 as I know, a shotgun is only good for a certain distance. 6 And if it's a shotgun, then it's going to spray anything, 7 like the helicopter, like pepper, all scattered out. 8 And the hole that was in the helicopter 9 was triangle. And there was an individual that 10 approached us and he was -- used to be in the army and he 11 was familiar with weapons. And he said he had material 12 the same as they build helicopters with and he used a 13 high powered rifle to shoot at from different angles and 14 distances. And he said that he could not get a triangle 15 shot in that metal. 16 Q: Well, can you tell me who this 17 individual was? 18 A: No, I can't, because I only met him 19 just the one (1) time he brought the -- the metal to us 20 and he introduced himself but I can't remember who -- 21 what his name was, no. 22 Q: Well, did you believe Abraham George 23 when he indicated that he shot at the helicopter? 24 A: Well, yes, I believed him but he said 25 he didn't know if he hit it or not.
1581 Q: And so your question was with respect 2 to whether or not he actually hit the helicopter and 3 caused the hole in question? 4 A: Well, I know he -- I know he didn't 5 hit it, because of the hole that they said was in the 6 helicopter. 7 Like at the time, the guys that were in 8 the helicopter they said that they could hear a thud in 9 the helicopter and they were, you know, going on and on 10 like they were in Vietnam and they never got shot at. 11 And they come home, they give a sad story saying, well, 12 as soon as we come back home then we get shot. 13 But in my -- my knowledge about and it's 14 not -- I don't know too much about helicopters, but if 15 you're in a helicopter -- if you're driving a helicopter 16 you should have headgear on and the motor. And the -- 17 and the -- the noise the helicopter gives off and if 18 somebody did shoot at it, how could you hear a thud in 19 there? 20 Q: Well, is it -- is it fair to -- to 21 say that -- that you were speculating and assuming that - 22 - that this shotgun that you saw could not have made the 23 hole? 24 A: That's right, yes. 25 Q: All right. Now, I wonder if you
1591 would look behind you, and this is a photograph 2 identified as Photo 0326, produced by the Ontario 3 Provincial Police. And this photograph purports to show 4 the bullet hole, or at least the hole in question, in the 5 side of the helicopter, it's entitled, "Search Warrant, 6 Camp Ipperwash 1993." 7 Is that the bullet hole to which you are 8 referring? 9 A: It looks like it, yes. 10 Q: I'd like to make that the next 11 Exhibit, please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-187. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 187. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-187(a): Photo 0326 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-187: Document 2004113 "Officer 19 statement Report of Patrick 20 J. Mullin OPP CIB Case No. 21 955-10-2003-100 November 22 03-Jan '04 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Now, did you subsequently advise the
1601 OPP of your conversation with Robert George and Abraham 2 George? 3 A: I believe so. 4 Q: If you kindly go to Tab 61, -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you say 6 sixty-one (61) or fifty-one (51)? 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sixty-one (61), please. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: Inquiry Document Number 2004107, is 11 an Officer Statement Report, by A.R. Fox, and it's a Will 12 State. And if you will look at the third page, under 13 November 15, 2003, it indicates as follows: 14 "Carl Tolsma did not arrive for a 15 prearranged meeting. At 10:18 a.m., I 16 attended Tolsma's residence and spoke 17 with him. He advised that he doesn't 18 want to provide a written or audio 19 statement. He stated that the night of 20 the incident, Nobby picked him up and 21 they went CFB Ipperwash. They spoke 22 with Abe George and he said that he 23 shot at the helicopter with a shotgun 24 and Nobby took the shotgun from him. 25 Tolsma further stated that David and
1611 Clayton George were grandchildren of 2 Abe's. Further, that he and Nobby left 3 the Camp with the shotgun. 4 At 11:15 a.m. I attended the Hubert 5 and Brenda residence," et cetera. 6 Now, do you recall making a statement to 7 that effect, or conveying that information to the police 8 officer on November 15th, 2003? 9 A: Not -- not really. That's -- if I 10 did, a lot of that stuff has been changed around in that 11 one. 12 Q: Well, it conveys the notion that you 13 conveyed the fact that Abraham George had indicated that 14 he took a shot at the helicopter with a shotgun. Is that 15 -- do you recall saying that to -- 16 A: No, I never, ever -- I never, ever 17 told the police that. 18 Q: This is in 2003. 19 A: 2003? Honestly, I can't -- I can't 20 recall that one. 21 Q: All right. Well, perhaps we could go 22 to Tab 63 then, this is a Further Officer Statement 23 Report, by Patrick J. Mullen, it's another Will State. 24 And if you will look over second page, first full 25 paragraph, it's Inquiry Document Number 2004113, and it
1621 states as follows: 2 "On Saturday, November 15th, 2003, D.C. 3 Fox and myself attended the residence 4 of Carl Tolsma, a.k.a. Carl George. 5 The Tolsma residence is located at," 6 And it's blanked out, 7 "Mr. Tolsma was the Chief of the Stoney 8 Point Reserve at the time of the 9 shooting. Tolsma would not come in for 10 a formal interview or go on the record, 11 as he feared retaliation from members 12 of the Stoney Point Band. 13 Mr. Tolsma did state, while standing 14 on his front porch, that on the night 15 of the shooting he knew that the 16 helicopters were flying low over the 17 Base again. He was picked up by Nobby 18 and driven to the occupied area of the 19 Base. He spoke to Abe, who told him 20 that he had shot at the helicopter. 21 Nobby took Abe's gun away from at that 22 time. 23 Abe further stated he shot at the 24 helicopter with a shotgun and that was 25 what Nobby had taken from him. He used
1631 a Number 4 shot red shell". 2 Now, do you recall giving that interview 3 to the police officer on November the 15th, 2003? 4 A: I remember talking to them, but most 5 of this, them coming to my place, honestly I can't 6 remember that kind of stuff. That's new to me. I can 7 remember giving a statement that -- that we went down 8 there and -- but I -- a lot of this I can't remember, 9 honestly, I can't. 10 Q: But to be clear, do you remember that 11 you did advise the police in 2003 of the statement made 12 by Abraham to you? 13 A: I probably did, you know. I can't 14 honestly remember all that stuff. I probably did. 15 Q: All right, and there's indication 16 that -- that Abe -- Abraham George had used a Number 4 17 shot red shell -- 18 A: I remember something along that line, 19 like when you -- when you mention the red Number 4 shot, 20 I do remember that part. Like I only trying to pick up 21 on a few things. 22 Like I said, it's been so long now, I 23 can't remember everything, but when you mentioned Number 24 4 red shot, it brings something back but I can't recall 25 everything, no.
1641 Q: All right, now can you just help me 2 and tell me what is the capability of a -- a Number 4 3 shot red shell or bullet? 4 A: Well, it -- it'll scatter and it's 5 only good for maybe -- as far as I know, about fifty (50) 6 feet. 7 Q: In terms of the range? 8 A: The range, yes. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: As far as I know. 11 Q: And what -- can you describe what 12 type of shotgun Abraham had that was turned over to 13 Robert or Nobby. 14 A: It would have been a .12 Gauge. 15 Q: And do you know what the typical 16 range of a .12 Gauge shotgun is? 17 A: Well, that's what I said, it's about 18 fifty (50) feet as far as I know, Number 4 shell. 19 Q: And have you ever used a Number 4 20 shot -- 21 A: I have -- 22 Q: -- red -- 23 A: -- yes. 24 Q: And would a bullet of that type be 25 capable of making the hole in your view, of the -- that
1651 we saw in the -- in the prior exhibit? 2 A: No. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Because I done a lot of -- 7 Q: Hang on -- there's just -- I think 8 there's going to be a comment. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 10 Tuck-Jackson? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, Mr. 12 Commissioner. I just want to be careful and want to put 13 on the record my concern that this witness hasn't been 14 qualified as providing expertise in this area. 15 And if this area is going to be pursued 16 then I would like to hear some evidence as to his 17 purported expertise. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I note My Friend's 19 comments and I agree that we laid the -- he's not being 20 called as an expert. He has not been called as an 21 expert. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, the only thing I 23 can -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just hang on and I'll - 25 - I'll just finish my statement if I may.
1661 Now we did establish that he has used this 2 type of bullet before. And I asked, based on his 3 experience, whether or not in his view, the bullet could 4 make this kind of a hole. 5 Obviously it goes to weight, in my view, 6 and not -- not admissibility. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 8 going to pursue this though, are you? 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm not pursuing it any 10 further. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: But could I make -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross -- 15 THE WITNESS: -- one (1) little 16 suggestion now? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 20 minute. Just one (1) minute -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Hang on. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 23 Tolsma. 24 Yes, Mr. Ross...? 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just to follow up, I
1671 agree with Mrs. Tuck-Jackson. First thing is that a 2 shotgun doesn't fire a bullet. A shotgun fires a pack -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And, you know, I'm 5 just trying to establish -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 7 understand. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- what Ms. Tuck- 9 Jackson said, there's merit to it and this witness should 10 not be drawn into that area. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much, Mr. Ross. We're not going any further down 13 that road. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No we're not, 15 Commissioner, thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The witness 17 wanted to say something. Do you want to ask him? 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, just that my knowledge 19 about it, I hunted rabbits with Number 4 shot, that's all 20 I know. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And I think that's fair 23 and this goes to the Witness's belief and the foundation 24 of his belief with respect to his testimony. And again, 25 it goes to weight, but it's perfectly appropriate to
1681 establish the basis of his belief. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Now, Mr. Tolsma, why did you give 7 this admitted information to the OPP some ten (10) years 8 after the fact? 9 A: Well, like I said, I didn't want 10 anybody bothering Abe and I was trying to protect him 11 because like I said we respected our Elders and he didn't 12 need the aggravation of being bothered and harassed. 13 Q: My question is: Why change -- what 14 caused you to change your mind ten (10) years later? 15 A: Well, because by then everybody was - 16 - knew that he shot at it, the helicopter. 17 Q: Well, what is the basis of that 18 comment? 19 A: Well, everybody knew about it and 20 they were going around talking and everybody knew about 21 it by then. 22 Q: And when you say everybody, what 23 group are you indicating? 24 A: The ones on Stoney Point. 25 Q: And what do you base your -- your
1691 knowledge or your belief on? Is this something you 2 overheard or...? 3 A: Yes. What I overheard. 4 Q: All right. Were you present when a 5 search was conducted immediately following the helicopter 6 shooting? 7 A: Yes, I was. 8 Q: And how did you find out about it? 9 A: I was contacted by the OPP's. 10 Actually who told me, I can't remember that one. But 11 they told me that they were coming in the next day to 12 search for weapons. And they explained if anyone locks 13 their trailer doors, they have crowbars, they would pry 14 them open and the doors wouldn't be, you know, no good to 15 go in and out. 16 So I went around and told everybody, I 17 said, we have nothing to hide and leave your trailer 18 doors open. Let them go in, let them look for what they 19 want to look for. And I waited at the building where we 20 called the argument hall, and they went through the 21 trailers and they finally made their way down to the 22 argument hall. 23 They came inside and one (1) of the 24 officers was talking to me because there's a bunch of 25 people on the highway, on the other side of the fence
1701 along the road. And the other officers were searching 2 through the boxes and they said to find weapons. 3 And the officer I was -- I was talking to 4 he was kind of distracting me asking, Well, who's this 5 person, is that Tom Bressette out there? And I said yes 6 it was. And he says, Who's this other one? 7 And I kind of caught on at that point and 8 I turned around and the officers that were searching 9 through the boxes had cameras and they were snapping 10 photographs of the papers that we had. And I told them, 11 I said, Well, aren't you suppose to be looking for 12 weapons, not taking pictures of our documents. 13 And there was another young fellow there 14 that had a camcorder and he was recording the police 15 officers snapping the photographs of the papers. And at 16 that point he said -- he told his officer, he says, Well, 17 there's nothing here, we'll continue on. 18 Q: All right. Now do you recall what 19 papers they were snapping photographs of? 20 A: I didn't see what papers they were 21 snapping photographs of, but they were just looking 22 through them, flipping through them and taking pictures 23 of certain papers that they wanted, I guess. 24 Q: And were you advised by the police 25 officer who contacted you about the search as to what the
1711 -- the parameters of this search was to be? 2 A: Well, they wanted to search all the 3 trailers that were out on the range for any weapons. 4 Q: Did they advise you that the search 5 warrant would extend to taking photographs of papers 6 belonging to the Band -- or to the First Nation? 7 A: No. They were just searching for 8 weapons. 9 Q: Were you shown -- ever shown a copy 10 of the search warrant? 11 A: Not myself, no. 12 Q: Now, you indicated that you were 13 advised the night before of the -- of the fact that there 14 would be a search warrant and that you didn't have any 15 objection to that? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: Did you advise the community that 18 there was going to be a search of -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: When did you advise them? 21 A: I think the ones that I got a hold 22 of, I told them that night, I believe. And I went back 23 the next day and I told the rest of them and I made them 24 aware of it. 25 Q: And did you advise that they should
1721 co-operate? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And so they were given advance notice 4 of the fact that this search was going to happen? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Did -- to your knowledge, did 7 the search result in any -- in any seizures by the 8 police? 9 A: What they found was a BB gun, a flare 10 gun and a slingshot. 11 Q: Now, of course, you knew that -- that 12 the item that -- that they were interested in was no 13 longer at the -- at the Army camp? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And that it was at Robert or Nobby 16 George's house? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You didn't tell them that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Now, when did Abraham George die? 21 A: I can't answer that one, I don't 22 remember. 23 Q: Do you recall whether he had died 24 prior to the communication you had with the police 25 officer in or around 2003?
1731 A: It was after that, but to be -- give 2 the exact date, no, I can't. 3 Q: All right. Did you actually watch 4 the -- any of the searches conducted with respect to the 5 trailers and tents? 6 A: No. I waited at the argument hall 7 for them to come that way. 8 Q: And about how long did it take for 9 this search to be completed? 10 A: It took about -- I'd say maybe four 11 (4) hours. 12 Q: Okay. Would you kindly go to Tab 27, 13 Inquiry Document Number 2004114 and it is a Will State of 14 P.C. Potts, dated August 25 -- sorry, offence dated 15 August 23, '93 at 22:23 hours. 16 Now, according to this statement on Page 17 3, at 11:36 a.m. and this would be on the 24th, the day 18 following, he attended at the front gate of CFB Ipperwash 19 and executed the warrant prior to entering the grounds. 20 Now, were you at the front gate when 21 police officer Potts arrived with this search warrant? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Does it -- does 11:30 in 24 the morning sound like about the time that the search was 25 commenced?
1741 A: Roughly, yeah, yeah. 2 Q: And according to this, a couple of 3 lines later, at 8:00 p.m. the search ended and he 4 attended at the Forest OPP station for a debriefing. 5 That indicates that the search was about 6 eight and a half (8 1/2) hours. Does that refresh your 7 memory? 8 A: It could have been. Like I said, I 9 can't remember all this stuff too good. 10 Q: All right, fair enough. Now at this 11 point in time was there a concern of yours that the 12 matter, in light of the reported helicopter shooting, 13 could escalate tensions and anxieties and perhaps 14 escalate into violence or confrontation? 15 A: Well, there -- there is always that 16 doubt, yes. 17 Q: And did you express that concern or 18 at least what -- what did you do to -- to deal with or 19 address that concern? 20 A: Well, I think Glen George and myself 21 called reporters to give statements on that. 22 Q: And would you go to Tab 29 of your 23 documents brief. It's Inquiry Document Number 2001810, 24 article from the Sarnia Observer, dated August 25, 1993. 25 The article's entitled, "Police Seeking Evidence after
1751 Helicopter Hit." 2 And if you would go to the second column, 3 partway down, paragraph: 4 "Acting Chief, Carl George, called for 5 calm and asked Band members for 6 cooperation to prevent a recurrence of 7 the 1990 Armed Standoff between the 8 Mohawk Warriors and Government Forces 9 near Oka, Quebec, quote, 'We want to 10 settle this in a non-violent way,' end 11 of quote. Chief George said, quote, 12 'If it comes to a standoff," 13 standoff is in brackets, 14 "I will have to take these people off 15 the land. I am responsible for the 16 safety of children here." 17 end of quote. 18 Now, do you recall making statements or 19 giving words to that effect to the media? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Can we make that the next Exhibit, 22 please? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-188. 24 25 ---EXHIBIT NO. P-188: Article from the Sarnia
1761 Observer, dated August 25, 2 1993, entitled, Police 3 Seeking Evidence After 4 Helicopter Hit. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Now, if we go on to page 2 of this 8 article, or maybe page 3, you will see a picture of an 9 OPP police vehicle and the third par -- column, at the 10 bottom, it says: 11 "About a hundred and twenty Stoney 12 Point members have, quote, 13 'reoccupied,' closed quote, several 14 square kilometres of the forested Base 15 for the past three and a half months. 16 They have built -- they have set up 17 make-shift homes, built a Church and 18 formed a Band Council on land 19 expropriated by Ottawa during the 20 Second World War." 21 Now, were there about a hundred and twenty 22 (120) Stoney Point members now, who were part, in one (1) 23 way or another of this occupation, as of August of '93? 24 A: I don't think there was that many, 25 no.
1771 Q: Okay. 2 A: Like it always remained as a small 3 number. People came and they left and it -- the numbers 4 kept going up and down. Were a hundred and twenty (120) 5 people there constantly? No, no. 6 Q: All right. Now, I understand that, 7 or at least we've heard some evidence, that a march 8 occurred, from Stoney Point to Ottawa, in the fall of 9 1993; are you aware of that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you tell me, were you one (1) 12 of the organizers of this? 13 A: Well, we suggested it, yes, I was one 14 (1) of the organizers. We thought it would be a good 15 idea. 16 Q: What was the purpose of this walk? 17 A: Well, to make Ottawa, like, we never 18 got no response and nothing ever came about, so we 19 figured if we had a walk to Ottawa, then go right to the 20 Parliament Buildings there, like, we'd -- we'd get 21 noticed and made a lot of friends on the way there. 22 And -- but when we actually got to Ottawa, 23 no one would speak to us. Like, the newspaper, TV 24 cameras were there, but, you know, that's as far as it 25 went.
1781 Q: And did you in fact speak to the 2 press, concerning this walk to Ottawa? 3 A: I -- yes, I probably did. 4 Q: Would you look at Tab 35, which is 5 Inquiry Document Number 2002488. And it's a -- there's a 6 covering letter, dated August 30, 1993, by Sergeant 7 McDonald to the Superintendent Number 1 District, but 8 attached to that and following it, is an article 9 entitled, "Native Trek to Ottawa to Raise Cash Profile." 10 It's an article in the London Free Press. 11 It indicates in the second paragraph: 12 "It's hoped the long, quote, 'long walk 13 for Stoney Point,' closed quote, to 14 begin September 12, from their 15 resettled homeland along Highway 21 16 will bring in enough cash to provide 17 housing and better facilities for 18 residents, Acting Chief Carl George 19 says." 20 Now, does that sound like it's words to 21 the effect that you gave to the media? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in fact, did the walk start on 24 September the 12th? 25 A: I'm pretty sure it did, yes.
1791 Q: And you go on, you're quoted later in 2 the -- in the column, as follows: 3 "We have to do something for our 4 elderly people for the winter, said 5 George standing near a still unfinished 6 church the community recently 7 constructed on reclaimed land. We've 8 got to start thinking about that cold 9 weather now and move back, said 10 George." 11 And does that sound like a quote that -- 12 statement you made to the press? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then it says: 15 "The walk, a seven hundred (700) 16 kilometre trek over an estimated 17 nineteen (19) days through cities such 18 as Stratford and Peterborough also aims 19 to heighten awareness of the groups 20 claim to the Military Camp lands where 21 members or their ancestors once lived." 22 Do you agree that that was one (1) of the 23 reasons for this trek? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the other reason was to raise
1801 funds for the community? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: Did you actually go on this trek? 4 A: No, I didn't. 5 Q: Do you know how many people did? 6 A: There was quite a few, and that exact 7 number, no. It was roughly anywhere from -- to be safe 8 I'd just say around about thirty (30), you know, I don't 9 know the exact number. 10 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that, 11 to the best of your understanding, no one at the 12 parliament, or at least on behalf of the government, 13 would speak to any of the -- any of the trekkers? 14 A: No, they wouldn't. 15 Q: And what was your reaction to that? 16 A: Well, I didn't think they would. 17 But, you know, it was -- we give them the chance. We 18 were right outside their doors and they still wouldn't 19 come out and even talk. I think everybody had the same 20 opinion that they -- they wouldn't come out and say 21 anything. Which everybody was right, they still wouldn't 22 come out. 23 Q: Now, I'd like to make that the next 24 exhibit, the newspaper article? 25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-189.
1811 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-189: Document 2002488 London Free 2 Press article "Native Trek to 3 Ottawa to Raise Cash, 4 Profile" 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Were you involved as chief in any 8 activities to educate the public with respect to what 9 your community was attempting to achieve through the 10 occupation of the army camp? 11 A: Probably, like I done a lot of 12 talking to point out what we were after. And like, I 13 always said that we were after -- we wanted our land 14 back. The DND was -- promised to give it back after the 15 war, which they never, and we -- that's what we were 16 fighting for. 17 Q: And you say, you did a lot of 18 talking; were you invited to speaking engagements? 19 A: Yes, we were -- we went quite a few 20 places. 21 Q: All right. And this was out in the 22 non-native community that you spoke? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Did you participate in a burying of 25 the hatchet ceremony?
1821 A: No, I wasn't. 2 Q: To your knowledge, were there 3 firearms kept at the Camp Ipperwash community, aside from 4 what we've heard about Abraham George's firearms? 5 A: Yes, there was one (1). Marlon Simon 6 had a rifle and he used that for hunting deer. And he 7 had a four-wheeler and he'd, you know, ride back in the 8 bush and that's what he used for hunting deer. 9 Q: And were there any understanding or 10 protocols in place within the community with respect to 11 having or using firearms for hunting at the camp? 12 A: Well, we agreed that we wouldn't have 13 any weapons on the property. And everybody agreed, but 14 then after a while then it was like nobody paid too much 15 attention to it. 16 Q: All right. And -- and in what 17 respect did they start to not pay attention to that? 18 A: Well, when we made agreements up, we 19 said that we would all -- we all were in favour of it and 20 we were going to do everything peaceful. 21 And as far as weapons were concerned, we 22 didn't want any on the land and if anything happened, 23 they -- they were supposed to approach the -- the council 24 and myself and say what they were bringing and if we 25 didn't want it we'd say, No.
1831 Q: And were you approached from time to 2 time with respect to a request to bring rifles or guns 3 onto the property for -- for hunting or any other 4 purposes? 5 A: No. 6 Q: To your knowledge was hunting being 7 carried on, notwithstanding? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And is it fair to say that you were 10 aware that -- that there was more than one (1) individual 11 who hunted at the Stoney Point Group? 12 A: There was more than one (1), but most 13 of them would go -- wouldn't hunt on the land, they'd go 14 hunting deer, say -- they'd go up to the farmers and ask 15 the farmers and -- to get permission. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: There was more than one (1) person 18 that was hunting. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: Not -- not on the land, though. 21 Q: All right. Well, from that, did you 22 gather that -- that these individuals has guns or 23 firearms with them? 24 A: As far as I know I only knew of the 25 one (1) rifle.
1841 Q: All right. And what type of a rifle 2 was that? 3 A: I can't say for sure. Alls I know it 4 was a rifle -- high-powered rifle for hunting deer. 5 Q: And did Mr. Simon ask permission of - 6 - of the council to -- to have a rifle at the premises? 7 A: Not that I can recall. 8 Q: And did you take any steps with 9 respect to approaching him about his use of a rifle? 10 A: I believe we mentioned it and we just 11 left it at that. 12 Q: Why did you just leave it at that? 13 A: Because at that time there was a lot 14 of things happening and I figured it was kind of useless 15 trying to enforce something that nobody would listen to. 16 Q: Were you concerned or did you form 17 the opinion that -- that the -- that the carrying on of 18 hunting activities, either at the Camp or around the Camp 19 posed a threat to the safety or the internal stability of 20 the Camp? 21 A: I was concerned, yes, because there 22 was one (1) incident I -- where along Outer Drive there 23 was a -- I think it was the guards that -- they done a 24 circle check. And they said that they heard a shot and 25 they raced to the front.
1851 So I can recall something like that 2 happening and they said they feared for their lives. But 3 everybody knew nobody would be shooting at another 4 person, but they made it sound really bad, but I think it 5 was just, you know, somebody hunting for deer. 6 Q: And was that? You said, the guards. 7 Who -- who were they? 8 A: Well, there was quite a few guards 9 there, but, you know, I can't remember their names, 10 neither. 11 Q: I'm sorry, but were these from the 12 Military? 13 A: Oh, the Military, yes. 14 Q: All right. And do you recall when 15 this incident was reported to you? 16 A: I remember it was reported to me, I 17 heard about it. To give an exact time and day, I can't 18 do that. 19 Q: What about a season and a year? 20 A: Well, it was in the summertime, I 21 believe, or early fall. I'm pretty sure it was in the 22 early fall or late fall, either one. 23 Q: And would this be '93 or '94? 24 A: It was pretty close to '94 at that 25 time.
1861 Q: All right. And did you conduct or 2 have conducted an investigation of any sort? 3 A: No. At that time we, like, National 4 Defence was -- there was quite a few things happening and 5 it didn't seem quite right. Like, they reported this and 6 we asked around and they said nobody was hunting at that 7 time. And that brought a concern up because I didn't 8 know what was happening and we couldn't find out at all 9 who -- if there was actually a shot or what. I mean, it 10 could have been like they said, a few -- some cars went 11 by. 12 But -- and then we figured well maybe it 13 was somebody threw a firecracker or something. But even 14 the guards from National Defence they couldn't tell if it 15 was a firecracker or a gunshot. 16 Q: All right. And were the police 17 called in? 18 A: Probably the Military called them in. 19 Q: Did they do you know? 20 A: They probably did, I don't know. 21 Q: You don't know? 22 A: I don't remember. 23 Q: You weren't questioned by the police? 24 A: I probably was, but like I said I -- 25 it's really hard to recall all this stuff.
1871 Q: Okay. 2 A: Honestly, I can't answer that one, 3 no. 4 Q: Were there any other specific 5 incidents that you can recall involving the -- the 6 alleged use of firearms at the army camp during the time 7 that you were living there? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Now, can you tell us what 10 -- can you describe the relations that you had with Chief 11 Bressette and the Kettle and Stony Point Band council 12 over this period of time in relation to the occupation of 13 the Army Camp? 14 A: Well, I kept in touch with Tom 15 Bressette and we talked. Like I said, we talked quite a 16 few things over and I don't know, there's a number of 17 stuff we talked about. And whenever I needed to talk to 18 him, he -- I was allowed to go in right there and then. 19 Q: And how would you describe the 20 overall nature of you relationship with the chief in 21 relation to these matters? 22 A: It was pretty good. Like we grew up 23 together and we got along good with each other, yeah. 24 Q: All right. And so would you 25 characterize the working relationship as -- as
1881 constructive? 2 A: Well, I was already in a position so, 3 you know, I guess really I put him in a position where he 4 couldn't -- he had to talk to me. But at the time, you 5 know, I couldn't tell anybody, like, the goal I wanted to 6 achieve. 7 Like, what I had planned was to get the 8 attention of the government and which almost happened. 9 Like, if I can, I don't know when it was, but if I can go 10 a little further or back a little further. 11 Whenever Kim Campbell was in power for the 12 short period of time she was there, like she came down in 13 a helicopter and flew around and close to the, you know, 14 just hovering around the area there and she looked the 15 place over. 16 And shortly after that I think it was the 17 very next day, and she wanted to, you know, return the 18 land. And at that time this is what I wanted to 19 accomplish, was to get their attention and get them to at 20 least talk and give -- start the process. And then I 21 could more or less back off and let, you know, the Chief 22 and Council that was in power already, take over from 23 there. 24 Q: All right. Did you receive from 25 Chief Bressette, a letter, I'm going to show you a copy
1891 of it dated August the 27, 1993 enclosing a letter from 2 the Minister of National Defence Siddon, Tom Siddon, 3 dated August 19, 1993 and addressed to Chief Tom 4 Bressette. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes, I recognize that one. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 10 this letter and enclosure the next exhibit please. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where is it 12 in our -- in my binder? 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, this is a new 14 production that we distributed the other day to Counsel. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-190. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-190: Kettle and Stony Point 18 Council letter to Carl George 19 August 27/'93 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: And in this letter, the letter to 23 Chief Tom Bressette there is a mention by the Minister of 24 National Defence that they will not conclude negotiations 25 until the current trespass at Camp Ipperwash ends.
1901 And then they -- he indicates that he has 2 instructed his officials to discuss a proposal as 3 follows: 4 "That there would be a site set aside 5 for use of the occupants, a two hundred 6 (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre 7 parcel in the extreme southeast corner 8 of Camp Ipperwash." 9 He says that this would be a: 10 "Short-term symbolic measure and there 11 would only be temporary structures 12 erected, only small numbers would 13 gather on the site at any one (1) time 14 and the demonstrators would agree to 15 leave all other sites and stay off all 16 other areas of the Camp." 17 Now, do you -- do you recall there ever 18 being an agreement from the National -- the Department of 19 National Defence to the effect of setting aside a 20 specific parcel of land for your exclusive use? 21 A: It was mentioned, but to set off a 22 site -- a parcel of land, no. 23 Q: Right. Now, were you involved in any 24 negotiations with the Federal Government surrounding the 25 return of Camp Ipperwash?
1911 A: Well, later on, after that, we were 2 allowed to join the negotiating committee on Kettle Point 3 and there's a few of us that who was on that committee 4 and we talked with one (1) of the negotiators from the 5 Federal Government, yes. 6 Q: And who were the designated members 7 on behalf of the Stoney Point group who were on that 8 negotiating team with Kettle and Stony Point Band? 9 A: There was myself and Glenn George, 10 Janet Cloud. I'm not really sure about the rest. I 11 can't remember all of them. 12 Q: All right. And you indicated that 13 you actually attended at certain negotiation sessions? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how long were you involved in 16 this process? 17 A: It wasn't very long because we didn't 18 really get along with the rest of them that was on there 19 and they didn't really want us there. And all we done 20 was argue. So it was slowly, one (1) by one (1), each of 21 them, more or less, quit, backed off. 22 And there were a few of us that stayed on 23 a little bit longer. And shortly after that I, kind of, 24 backed off. I just -- I just had enough of it. 25 Q: And what would you say was the -- the
1921 main source of tension amongst the negotiating team? 2 A: Well, there was a majority of the 3 people they understood that we have to work together. 4 But there was one (1) individual that took a kind of a 5 like an outlook that we were after only one (1) thing for 6 us Stoney Point people that was there, we were just 7 looking out for our self and nobody else. 8 But we kept trying to say, you know, we're 9 there for everyone, that's why a lot of us, kind of, 10 backed off and quit the committee. 11 Q: Do you know what the outcome of -- of 12 that negotiation process was? 13 A: Well, the negotiator that we talked 14 to at the time, I can't remember his name, but he kept 15 promising stuff, promising stuff and would do nothing. 16 And finally, we agreed that we'd ask for another 17 negotiator and he was taken off. 18 And so they got another guy on there and 19 he promised some stuff but he gave very little and 20 promised more and never received anything. And after a 21 while that's -- I think that's when I got out of it and 22 they got another negotiator in there. 23 Q: All right. So, I gather from your 24 comments that -- that you didn't find the process with 25 the negotiator -- the Federal Government negotiator to be
1931 particularly satisfactory? 2 A: No, they kept promising and stuff and 3 they give nothing. 4 Q: All right. And was the Park ever on 5 the agenda, if you will, or on the negotiating table? 6 A: Yes, it was. 7 Q: And in what context? 8 A: Well, we explained that -- how it was 9 sold, more or less. Some people said it was stolen, but 10 they said, Oh, it was bought, you know, within the law. 11 It was legally bought, but we tried to explain how it -- 12 it come to that, but they weren't interested in that. 13 They were only interested in how they bought it. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Anything before that, they weren't 16 interested in. 17 Q: And was there anyone from the 18 Province at the table? 19 A: Near the end, they had just lawyers 20 representing them. 21 Q: All right. Fair enough. 22 Commissioner, I note that it's quarter to 3:00, I believe 23 it's time for the afternoon break? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If it's appropriate.
1941 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 2:49 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 3:06 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Thank you. Mr. Tolsma, for the 12 majority of 1994 were you recognized as Chief of -- of 13 the Stoney Point First Nation? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Who was, then? 16 A: Nobody was in place. 17 Q: Well, were you not identified by the 18 media as the -- as the Chief or Acting Chief? 19 A: I was identified yes, but there was a 20 time, I think it was in '94 when I was finished down 21 there. 22 Q: We'll get to that, but did you not 23 leave Stoney Point in '95? 24 A: It could have been, I can't remember 25 the exact year.
1951 Q: All right. Well, let's put it this 2 way, for the time that you were at Stoney Point; for the 3 majority of the time that you were at Stoney Point, were 4 you the Chief -- recognized as the Chief or Acting Chief? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. And did -- as 7 long as you were there, was the same decision-making 8 process that you described earlier, did it continue to 9 apply? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the same day-to-day activities of 12 the Camp occurred? 13 A: Pretty much, yes. 14 Q: And were the negotiations that you 15 were a part of, did they continue on into '94 with you as 16 a -- as a party? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you continue to maintain a 19 permanent residence at Kettle Point? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And then you would occasionally on 22 weekends and some nights, sleep over at the Army Camp? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. I'd like you to go to Tab 25 39 of the book of documents, it's Inquiry Document Number
1961 2002460, letter dated January 18, 1994 from Inspector -- 2 sorry, from Sergeant McDonald to the Superintendent 3 Number 1 District Headquarters, reference First Nations 4 Occupation CFB Ipperwash. 5 And the report being conveyed in -- in the 6 second paragraph is that there are presently 7 approximately fifteen (15) people living at the Army Camp 8 full-time. And then on weekends those numbers appear to 9 increase as there are sometimes seven (7) or eight (8) 10 more vehicles observed in the occupied areas. Does that 11 sound about right to you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And this, of course, was because in 14 the winter time it was difficult for people to stay at 15 the facility? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: So I understand that there was no 18 running water, is that right? 19 A: No, we didn't have any. 20 Q: Or electricity? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And so it was only a small 23 number of people like Clifford George, who stayed the 24 winter? 25 A: That's right.
1971 Q: Also, indicates that: 2 "Up until last week there appeared to 3 be weekly meetings being held every 4 Wednesday at the Native Church, where 5 up to thirty (30) vehicles were 6 counted." 7 I think you said that that was also known 8 as Argument Hall? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: But did weekly meetings, nonetheless, 11 more or less continued throughout '94. 12 A: I'm pretty sure it did, yeah. 13 Q: And that: 14 "There's a report that there are 15 gunshots are still heard on occasion, 16 as it is believed that the Natives are 17 still hunting. It would appear that 18 those living -- still living there are 19 concentrating on surviving." 20 Does that sound accurate? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: The next line: 23 "Carl George has been designated by the 24 Stoney Point Council as Chief and their 25 spokesperson."
1981 That's accurate? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And: 4 "The former Chief Maynard --" 5 That's Maynard T. George: 6 "-- has fallen out of grace with the 7 Stoney Point Council, due primarily to 8 his alcohol abuse." 9 Is that fair and accurate? 10 A: Yes. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Make that the next 12 exhibit please? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-191. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 191. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-191: Document 2002460 OPP letter 17 to the Superintendent OPP 18 Chatham from Sergeant S.J. 19 McDonald No. 4813, January 20 18/'94 Re: First Nations 21 Occupation, CFB Ipperwash 22 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just as a matter of 24 housekeeping, Mr. Millar has -- has alerted me to the 25 fact that the photograph, Mr. Registrar -- what exhibit
1991 number? 2 THE REGISTRAR: 3026, 187(A). 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay, thank you very 4 much. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: All right. Now, in 1994, did there - 10 - were there incidents or altercations involving members 11 from your community that gave you concern? 12 A: A few of them, yes. 13 Q: And are these matters over which you 14 had discussions with the police or the Military from time 15 to time? 16 A: Not -- not with the ones that are 17 living there. 18 Q: Perhaps you would go to Tab 44, 19 Inquiry Document Number 1010308. It's an e-mail from Dan 20 Elliott, MNR Native Liaison Officer to Dan Elliott -- or 21 to -- to Ron Baldwin, dated May 27th, 1994. 22 And if you would look at the sixth 23 paragraph on the first page, at the bottom. It says: 24 "The meeting today was called by the 25 Township of Bosanquet as a result of
2001 this past weekend's activity in and 2 adjacent to both Camp Ipperwash and 3 Ipperwash Park. At 3:00 a.m. on May 4 21, 1994, two (2) non-natives left 5 Ipperwash Park and went for a stroll in 6 the sand dunes adjacent to the park on 7 the old Military Base. They were 8 confronted and assaulted by ten (10) 9 Natives who were camped out in the 10 dunes. At 5:00 a.m., a hitchhiker on 11 the highway fronting the Military Base 12 was assaulted by four (4) Natives in a 13 passing vehicle. At 10:30 a.m. a 14 Native person in the Park was drunk and 15 disorderly and assaulted a camper. The 16 OPP suspect that the occurrences were 17 related to the Native group camped in 18 the sand dunes on the base. The OPP 19 approached the new Chief of Stoney 20 Point, Carl George, and some Elders 21 about the occurrences. Chief Carl 22 George and the Elders were upset to 23 hear of the occurrences, and ripped out 24 the camp from the sand dunes. The OPP 25 have apprehended some of the offenders
2011 and are continuing the investigation." 2 Do you recall these allegations being 3 brought to your attention? 4 A: Now that you mention the sand dunes, 5 yes. 6 Q: And did you in fact take action with 7 respect to removing the camps from the sand dunes? 8 A: I'm pretty sure I did, yes. 9 Q: I'd like to make that the next 10 Exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-192. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-192: Document 1010308 E-mail to 14 Ron Baldwin, from Dan 15 Elliott, MNR-Native Liaison 16 Officer Re: Updated Note on 17 Ipperwash, May 27/'94 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Now, was there any increased concern 21 about -- on your part, about the existence of any 22 firearms at the community, the Stoney Point community at 23 the Camp Ipperwash? 24 A: Firearms? 25 Q: In 1994?
2021 A: As far as I can remember, I don't 2 think so. 3 Q: Now, were there any new -- new 4 members who were moving on to -- who moved on to the 5 Stoney Point lands in 1994, on a full-time basis? 6 A: There was some, yes, but I can't 7 remember all their names. Like, I remember one (1), that 8 would be Les Jewels. 9 Q: All right. And was Les Jewel a 10 member of -- of the Stoney Point First Nation or the 11 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 12 A: No, he wasn't. 13 Q: Was there any controls over who was 14 allowed to become a resident member of the community? 15 A: We only more or less adopted one (1) 16 person, and that was Scott Ewart. 17 Q: Okay. But were there -- was there a 18 process in place or a protocol, with respect to someone 19 who would like to become a full-time resident at the 20 Camp? 21 A: It was just more or less consents. 22 Q: Consensus? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. So that person had to ask 25 permission?
2031 A: Yes. 2 Q: To your knowledge, did Les Jewels ask 3 permission? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And were you able to -- what was your 6 reaction when you found out that he was now resident on 7 the campsite? 8 A: Well, there was a lot of things 9 starting to happen, and I knew very well that it wouldn't 10 do me no good more or less saying, well, you can't be 11 here. 12 And there was a lot of people around, and 13 I didn't want to, you know, cause a scene. So I just let 14 it be and I just watched and seen where it was going to 15 lead to. 16 But I never, ever approached him and told 17 him he couldn't be there. 18 Q: Did you have any concern with respect 19 to the fact that he appeared to move into the community? 20 A: Well, from hearing things, like I 21 learned later that he was in Manitoulin and causing a 22 problem up that way and he was forced off the reserve. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And I believe that the -- it was on, 25 oh, I think it was Sucker Creek, I think that's the one,
2041 the women up there, all the women got together and walked 2 him to the edge of the reserve and told him not to come 3 back. 4 Q: When did you find out that 5 information? 6 A: That was shortly after he came to 7 Stoney Point and, it wasn't long after that. 8 Q: All right. Now, we reviewed 9 allegations earlier with respect to the beach and some 10 problems that were reportedly occurring on the beach. 11 Did the police raise any proposals with 12 you to assist in managing those situations? 13 A: I talked to Rick Bouwman at the Grand 14 Bend Detachment, -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- and at the time I agreed that 17 something should be in place to monitor that there's no 18 drinking in the sand dunes and just to more or less keep 19 peace, because we didn't want, like, the campers across - 20 - just directly across the road, in the Provincial Park, 21 I wanted to more or less make them feel that everything 22 was under control and more or less they would be safe 23 while they were camping. 24 Q: All right. And as a result, was 25 there an agreement reached with the police in relation to
2051 the -- the management, if you will, of the beach and dune 2 area? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And what was that 5 arrangement? 6 A: Just that they would ride back and 7 forth on their four (4) wheels and kind of patrol it. 8 Q: The OPP would? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Would you kindly go to 11 Tab 44 -- I'm sorry, not 44, 46. It's Inquiry Document 12 2003357. It's the statement of Staff Sergeant K. Bouwman 13 and it's titled "Contacts with People living on CFB 14 Ipperwash". 15 And I'd like to take you to the second 16 page and the entry April 20, 1994. It reads as follows: 17 "Contact with Carl George, reference 18 use of ATVs on beach to patrol and get 19 to Ipperwash and Port Franks. Stated 20 he had no problem with this." 21 Does that reflect the approximate timing 22 that the arrangement was made to have a patrol of the 23 beach? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And go on to say:
2061 "Also stated there was a high powered 2 rifle in a closet at Dudley George's 3 place and that Dave George had a sawed 4 off shotgun in a shack on the range and 5 they have no plans for a celebration 6 for 6 May." 7 Now, did you tell the officer that there 8 was a high powered rifle in the closet at Dudley George's 9 place? 10 A: I can't recall that. 11 Q: Do you know whose high powered rifle 12 that was? 13 A: As far as I know the only one I knew 14 of would be Marlin Simons'. 15 Q: And would this be the kind of thing 16 that you would feel at liberty to report to the police? 17 A: I probably would have, yes. And -- 18 but I -- like I said, I can't remember if I did or not. 19 Q: All right. And did you report that 20 Dave George had a sawed off shotgun? 21 A: I can't recall anything about a sawed 22 off shotgun. 23 Q: Do you recall knowing about one? 24 A: Right now, I -- no, I don't think I 25 ever knew about one.
2071 Q: All right. 2 A: I can't recall it, anyway. 3 Q: But is the type of thing, again, that 4 you would feel at liberty to report to the police? 5 A: I probably would have, yes, because I 6 didn't want any kind of weapons there at all. 7 Q: And of course, this was -- is this 8 Sergeant Bouwman, the person with whom you had developed 9 a relationship? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And it's likely that he's 12 the person that you would report these things to? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And I see -- okay, thank 15 you. Now, what was the reaction of the community to the 16 fact that you agreed that the OPP could patrol the 17 beaches and the dunes? 18 A: Well, at first everything was good 19 and like I said, I lived at Kettle Point and Glen George 20 and they call Judas, they came down and they didn't like 21 the idea of it and I was told to call into the Detachment 22 and get rid of the OPP that was patrolling there. 23 So after I di -- they left and I did call 24 and I told them that he has to stop the patrolling of the 25 beach front because I didn't want any kind of conflict or
2081 anything starting, just more or less trying to keep the 2 peace. 3 So he agreed and he said that he would 4 stop. 5 Q: Now, do you recall did this 6 conversation occur in 1994 or 1995? 7 A: It might have been in '94. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I really can't remember. 10 Q: Did the patrolling by the OPP, 11 nonetheless, resume in 1995? 12 A: No, because when I called them they - 13 - they stopped. 14 Q: Okay, and I just want to make sure 15 you have the chronology accurate. Would you kindly go to 16 Tab 46. It's the document we were just referring to, the 17 statement of Staff Sergeant K. Bouwman, Inquiry Document 18 Number 2003357. And would you kindly look on page 3 at 19 the entry dated May 15, 1995, the bottom of the page. It 20 reads: 21 "Called Carl George and advised him 22 ATV's would be patrolling the beach and 23 laying charges if any infractions were 24 reserved -- sorry, were observed." 25 Did you -- does that refresh your memory
2091 with respect to whether or not there was any patrolling 2 occurring, at least in May of 1995 -- early May, mid-May? 3 A: It -- like I said, they -- they did 4 patrol, but for myself to recall the day and the year, it 5 was pretty hard, but I -- I recall this that they would 6 lay charges if anybody was caught drinking or anything 7 like that. 8 Q: And that patrolling would continue? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. All right. Now, over the 11 course of 1994, was your working relationship with Chief 12 Bressette the same as the prior year, in relation to the 13 occupation issues? 14 A: Yes. I had to also explain to him 15 what I was doing. Like -- like I told him, like -- at 16 first --the beginning I couldn't -- like I said, I 17 couldn't tell everybody what I had planned because like I 18 said, I didn't want no other group coming in, 19 interfering, because it would have messed whatever we had 20 planned to do. 21 And the plan what we had to do was get the 22 Government's attention somehow and this is a way we 23 figured we could do it, by going on the land and staying 24 there because they didn't want anybody on the land and if 25 we stayed there then they would kind of open their eyes
2101 and -- and, like, the Chief Tom and the Council -- I 2 didn't even tell them what we were going to be doing. 3 So they didn't agree with it and like I 4 said, a lot of people didn't like what I was doing so, 5 you know, I got a lot of, you know, lip from that and so 6 finally I just went to him and I told him what we had 7 planned and I said, Well, if the land comes back, I said, 8 We -- I had to do this and the rest of the people had to 9 do this because we wanted to get the attention. 10 We -- this is going on long enough and I 11 said once I start talking and I said, Then I'm more or 12 less, I'm going to back right off because I'm not made 13 out for this kind of stuff and the Chief and Council will 14 take over from there, talking, with the Government. 15 Q: Now, did this conversation -- do you 16 think that happened in '94 or '95? 17 A: Well, it must have happened in '95. 18 Q: All right. Now, you told us that you 19 had been involved in some negotiations. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: But you didn't back out in terms of - 22 - of leaving the -- the Camp lands, so what -- what were 23 you -- what were you meaning when you said you -- 24 A: I was -- on the negotiating team, 25 leaving the land, we weren't going to -- just because I
2111 was on the negotiating team, I didn't ask the people to 2 leave the land. 3 Q: All right. Did you have any 4 understanding as to whether or not the Chief and Band 5 Council of the Stoney and Kettle Point First Nation, 6 whether they were -- what their position was with respect 7 to the occupation or the ongoing occupation of Camp 8 Ipperwash by your community? 9 A: They didn't like it too -- too much. 10 Like I said, there was a lot of accusations and they 11 didn't like it, but again they -- we had to do something 12 to get their attention and the people were just tired of 13 sitting there and being promised a lot of stuff and -- 14 and nothing was happening, so we had to, you know, try to 15 get their attention somehow and this is what we set out 16 to do. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: But, like, the Council didn't -- 19 wouldn't understand and didn't like what we were doing, 20 no. 21 Q: Were they prepared, nonetheless, to 22 continue to have discussions with you? 23 A: The Kettle Point Council? 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: We talked with them, yes. They --
2121 they would talk to us anytime we wanted. 2 Q: Okay. And I'd like to move onto 3 1995, and did you continue to act as Chief and spokesman 4 for Stoney Point, at the beginning of 1995? 5 And I've just showed you some 6 communications with Sergeant Bouwman, which indicate that 7 you were still at the -- still had a presence at the 8 Camp? 9 A: As far as I can remember, it was in 10 the spring, and I was -- I think it was in '95, it had to 11 be. I had a trailer in there and I moved it down closer 12 to the built up area. And at that time it was in amongst 13 the trees, and I -- Glenn came along with a tractor and 14 he pulled the trailer out for me, because I was going to 15 -- I wanted to take it out of there, because then the 16 wife had plans that we'd try to buy a little bit bigger 17 one. 18 But at that time, I took it home, and it 19 sat there, and I never took any -- any trailer back down 20 there. 21 Q: Were you basing any increasing 22 difficulties in relation to the activities of some of 23 your group members, in 1995? 24 A: Yes, I was. I -- I had the opinion 25 that nobody would really say, and they didn't really take
2131 me serious on what we wanted to accomplish, and nobody 2 took serious what I said, so everybody kind of done their 3 own thing, so I kind of got the impression that I was no 4 longer wanted there. 5 So, I figured, well -- and I talked it 6 over with my wife and I said, well, I said what's the use 7 in me doing anything? I said, I think we -- I done what 8 I achieved to do, I got the Government's attention. I 9 said -- and I was getting really frustrated, so I said, 10 okay, that's it, I said, I'm done with it. 11 So, I went home and I more or less just 12 washed my hands of it, and I said that -- that's it, I 13 had it. 14 Q: Was it your sense that some of the 15 people at the Stoney Point community were -- were losing 16 patience with respect to your approach? 17 A: Yes. They said that -- I got the 18 opinion that they figured it was taking too long, but 19 you've got to understand the Government doesn't move fast 20 for anybody. 21 Q: And as a result of -- of this sense, 22 were there breakouts of -- were there at least tensions 23 and conflicts that were starting to develop within the 24 community? 25 A: Well, like I said, the people started
2141 doing whatever they wanted, and I just left it as that. 2 I was a -- you know, there were certain things I got in 3 the mail. I got a threatening -- like I got a news 4 clipping, and it was from -- well, it was from like an 5 RCR, and the newspaper took a -- a shot of it, like the 6 RCR had a gun and he was pointing off to the side of the 7 camera like. And that was ripped out of the newspaper 8 and there was writing on it and it said that -- well it 9 used some pretty vulgar language and said, You're next, 10 and it was like a little child's handwriting. 11 And at the time, like my son, my oldest 12 son was married to Maynard T's daughter, Marsha. And she 13 said, Let me see that. And she recognized the 14 handwriting, she said, that's my niece. She said, that's 15 probably my aunts that done that. Janet Cloud and 16 Maureen Koejic, I think that's how you say it. 17 But you know, stuff like that was getting 18 out of hand, so I just said, that's it -- 19 Q: Now. 20 A: -- I wanted -- I wanted out. 21 Q: -- did you keep a -- did you keep 22 this --this piece of paper, this news clipping? 23 A: Yes, I did. I'm still trying to find 24 it at home but I'm pretty sure I got it some place. 25 Q: If you do locate it, will you -- will
2151 you provide it to the Commission? 2 A: Yes, I can. 3 Q: And did you ever -- did you ever talk 4 to Janet Cloud or anyone else just -- just to ask them 5 whether this was something they may have generated? 6 A: No. 7 Q: So did you take -- make any 8 investigations other than just looking at the document? 9 A: No. Because I already knew -- I was 10 already told by their niece, Marsha, that she identified 11 the handwriting of her little niece and you probably -- 12 she said it was probably her aunt that put the little 13 child up to that. 14 Q: Well, -- and you said something about 15 RCR. 16 A: It was a picture of an RCR -- 17 Q: I'm sorry, what's an RCR? 18 A: It's like -- well they come in and 19 they -- like a weekend -- guys in the army. We call them 20 RCR's. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And they took a snapshot of him in 23 uniform and holding a rifle. 24 Q: Okay. Suggest -- could it be the 25 militia reserve?
2161 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Now did you find yourself 3 becoming a source of conflict within the Stony Point 4 community? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And as a result did you begin to feel 7 that -- that you could no longer continue? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And can you tell me please, what the 10 main reasons and factors giving rise to your conclusion 11 that -- that you were becoming a source of conflict and 12 could not be useful any longer? 13 A: Well, other people had their own 14 ideas what they wanted to do and they just done them. 15 And they wouldn't listen anymore so. And whatever I had 16 planned and I wanted to do was -- well I couldn't get 17 anywhere with it so I just backed right out. 18 Q: You indicated that there are -- that 19 people were doing what they wanted to do. 20 Are you suggesting that you no longer had 21 the ability to exercise authority or control over the 22 activities of some of the people? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And were there particular activities 25 or situations that were developing which caused you
2171 concern and which you could not control? 2 A: Well, it was just the -- the things 3 that everybody was doing. They just wouldn't listen, 4 they done whatever they wanted and regards to the -- 5 taking over the built-up area, like, I -- I was out of it 6 before that even took place. 7 Like I just got the opinion and the 8 feeling that nobody would listen anymore and I just had 9 enough. 10 Q: Now did you tell anybody that -- that 11 you were intending to not return after the trailer was 12 taken out? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Why not? 15 A: Because I had a strong feeling that 16 something was going to happen. 17 Q: What do you mean? 18 A: Like, I just had a bad feeling. 19 Q: All right. And are you aware that 20 certain individuals in the community gave the -- at least 21 -- gave information that they had in fact ousted you? 22 A: No. 23 Q: I wonder if you could go to Tab 46. 24 This is Inquiry Document Number 200-3357 and we've 25 referred to it before and I think perhaps we should be
2181 making an exhibit for the record. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 3 what tab was it, 42? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, 46. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 46? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-193 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-193: Document 2003357 Statement of 9 Staff Sergeant K. Bouwman Re: 10 Contacts with People Living 11 on CFB Ipperwash, November 12 17/'94, 1155 Hrs. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, let me just ask you this. Was 16 the issue of the police patrolling of the base, did it 17 continue to be a sore point in the community? 18 A: Well, it was stopped after I phoned 19 them. 20 Q: All right. And perhaps you would go 21 to the entry on page 4 of this document, May 17, 1995. 22 Indicates that Rose Manning called to advise, they did 23 not want the cops on the beach at the Army Base, they 24 will post no trespassing signs, stated that Carl George 25 has no authority over them and that Glenn George speaks
2191 for them as their Councillor. 2 Now, were you aware of that? 3 A: Let me see. I think that's after I 4 left before I found out about that. 5 Q: All right. And then it indicates, 6 the next entry, a call from Carl George, states Glenn 7 George and others came to see him this morning and they 8 do not honour him as their Chief or spokesperson. They 9 do not want the OPP on the beach and will seize our 10 vehicles, our ATVs. Carl George is going to tell his 11 group to leave the Army Base as he feels the Manning 12 group will cause problems. 13 Do you recall relaying that information by 14 telephone over to a police officer, a Sergeant Bouwman? 15 A: I remember phoning him and telling 16 him to stop the -- the patrolling of the beachfront. 17 Q: And do you recall having a meeting 18 with Glenn George and others, at which you were told that 19 they did not honour you as their chief anymore? 20 A: I -- I can't really recall that, no. 21 Q: Do you doubt that you made this call 22 to Sergeant Bouwman? 23 A: I made the call, yes. 24 Q: All right. You just can't recall the 25 contents clearly today?
2201 A: Well, I remember specifically to -- 2 because it was made to me very clear that they -- the 3 people wanted the patrolling of the beach to stop. 4 Q: All right. I -- I was really 5 focussing on the issue of whether or not you had a 6 meeting, at which you were told you were no longer the 7 chief? 8 A: There, I -- I can't remember that 9 part. 10 Q: All right. And then the next entry 11 is 12:15, Glenn George, Judas George, and one (1) other 12 male native, attended Grand Bend Detachment, advised by 13 Glenn George that they had a Council Meeting last 14 weekend, and that Carl George was kicked out as their 15 chief and that Glenn was now in charge and their 16 spokesperson. 17 Now, were you -- 18 A: I -- I wasn't part of that meeting. 19 Q: Were you informed of the fact, or of 20 -- of their being a Council Meeting at which you were 21 ousted? 22 A: I believe I was after about a week 23 later. 24 Q: And I just wanted to go back to an 25 earlier comment. The statement here, it's attributed to
2211 you that -- that you were going to tell your group to 2 leave the Army Base, as you felt that the Manning group 3 will cause problems. 4 Can you give me a sense as to what that 5 was about? 6 A: I think that had to relate to the -- 7 the drinking that was done down in the dune area. Like, 8 I can't be 100 percent sure, but I'm pretty sure that's 9 what it relates to. 10 Q: Okay. And if you would go over to 11 the next page, please, there's an entry dated May 18, 12 1995, at 14:00, this is from Sergeant Bouwman again. 13 And what he records is that he called and 14 spoke to Carl George, who stated that Glenn George 15 indirectly threatened him yesterday, along with two (2) 16 other people. Glenn George also told him that if any 17 white person came onto the Army Base this weekend, they 18 will forcefully remove him, all of his threats so far 19 have been veiled threats. 20 Now, do you -- can you help me out and 21 advise me as to whether or not there was an indirect 22 threat and what -- what that was? 23 A: There -- there may have been a call 24 like that, but right now, I just can't recall any kind of 25 a threat made like that. I can't remember it anyway.
2221 Q: Okay. At any point, well, all right. 2 You indicated that you received a document in the mail, 3 you interpreted that as a threat. Were there any other 4 gestures or incidents which you took to be as a threat to 5 you? 6 A: No, it's just that one (1) document 7 that was, like, written on there and I took that as a 8 threat. 9 That was about the only -- only one. 10 Q: Did you tell people or did you 11 recommend or advise that people leave the Army Camp in 12 the spring of '95? 13 A: No, I don't -- I don't think so. 14 Q: So then you're suggesting that 15 Sergeant Bouwman would be in error if he recorded that? 16 A: I just can't remember. 17 Q: You can't remember? All right. Were 18 you developing the view that -- that the community was, 19 perhaps, becoming unstable? 20 A: Yes, they were coming unstable. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Because everybody was doing what they 23 wanted to do and nobody was trying to work together. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2231 Q: All right, did you become aware of a 2 -- a new group who were emerging as the leaders of the 3 Stony Point community upon the time that you were 4 leaving? 5 A: Well, every -- yes. Like, everybody 6 -- well, they wouldn't listen to me any more. And at 7 that time at the beginning, everybody was more or less 8 kind of arguing who's was going to be -- more or less 9 who's in charge. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: Like there was the Mannings, and I 12 know Glenn was arguing with them. And like more or less 13 everybody was arguing with each other and it wasn't 14 getting anywhere. 15 Q: And -- and was -- was Glenn George 16 one (1) of the individuals who was emerging as a leader, 17 in your view? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And did you have any concerns about 20 the -- the new emerging leaders? 21 A: Well, yes, because I didn't want to 22 see anything getting out of proportion and I didn't want 23 to see anybody getting hurt, because like I said what I 24 had focussed was everything was to be peaceful and we 25 tried to fight the government with, you know, their own
2241 paperwork. 2 We tried to throw it back in their faces, 3 what they promised. And, more or less, I didn't want to 4 see anything get out of proportion. I didn't want to see 5 anybody -- anything get hurt, anybody. 6 Q: And -- and what was it about -- that 7 you saw that gave rise to your concerns that things might 8 become out of proportion and that people might get hurt? 9 A: Well, like I said, there was a lot of 10 people arguing and a few of the -- like Les Jewels was 11 still there and he was talking to a lot of people and 12 more or less he had also his own ideas about stuff. And 13 he was talking traditional ways and people were getting 14 mixed up. 15 Q: And what -- what -- what did you 16 understand to be his -- the -- the concept of traditional 17 ways that were being advanced by him that caused you 18 concern? 19 A: Well, there was -- I'm not 20 traditional, so -- but from what I understand of it, 21 there's different traditions. 22 Like Mohawk have their own, Chippewas have 23 their own, and as you go along. And a lot of the people 24 were taking a little bit out of each and using it what 25 they wanted to see.
2251 Q: All right. 2 A: And that's just not how it works. 3 Q: And was the nature of the decision 4 making changing at Stoney Point in the spring of 1995, as 5 you were leaving? 6 A: It was pretty quiet around about that 7 time, but slowly, yes, I seen it changing. 8 Q: And in what respect was it changing? 9 A: Well, it was getting out of hand and, 10 like I said before, people weren't listening to me. They 11 were doing whatever they wanted and I didn't like -- I 12 just got a bad -- bad feeling out of everything. 13 Q: And before you talked about the basis 14 of decision making being consensus. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And was it changing from consensus to 17 a different form? 18 A: Well, before I backed off, like I was 19 getting a lot of arguments when we went to the argument 20 hall. And I couldn't, more or less -- I couldn't get 21 anywhere with the people. Because more or less they 22 were, more or less, just piling on my back and arguing 23 about anything. 24 Q: When -- as you were leaving was there 25 any significant presence on Stoney Point at Camp
2261 Ipperwash of non-Stoney Point individuals? You talked 2 about Les Jewel, were there -- did you notice there was 3 an increasing number of other people? 4 A: There was a few stragglers coming in, 5 yes. 6 Q: All right. And at some point did you 7 become concerned that perhaps there was too many non- 8 Stoney Point people taking up residence on the Camp? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And as a result was there a meeting 11 at Kettle Point to discuss this issue? 12 A: Yes, there was. 13 Q: And did you attend at that meeting? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: Would you kindly look again at Tab 16 46, sorry, what exhibit was that from? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-193. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: P-193, and would you kindly look at 21 page 11. This is, again, the statement of Sergeant 22 Bouwman. And at the entry of July 30, 1995 at 21:50, 23 indicates as follows: 24 "Spoke with Carl George. Advises 25 Kettle Point has called a meeting for
2271 tomorrow. If in agreement, will march 2 onto CFB and ask or force Warriors and 3 Mohawks to leave. Les Jewel is leading 4 them and put together this last 5 episode. 6 Belongs to Warrior Society in the 7 States and is a Mohawk from Cross 8 Village in the US. Was thrown off 9 Sucker Creek on Manitoulin Island 10 several years ago. Also states G. 11 George has been having meetings at his 12 house with Les Jewel, Buck Doxtator, 13 and other Warriors." 14 And do you recall having a conversation 15 with Sergeant Bouwman and giving him this information? 16 A: Vaguely I can remember something like 17 that. 18 Q: And can you tell me what was the -- 19 the reference to the last episode? This last episode 20 that Les Jewel apparently was involved in? 21 A: Well, when I -- when I was still 22 there he was talking to a lot of the people like on the - 23 - walking on the beach like the non-Native people, and 24 telling them, you know, about the traditional ways and 25 stuff. But I didn't stick around too much to listen to
2281 it. 2 I went down on the beachfront and -- but, 3 you know, I got the feeling I wasn't wanted there so 4 nobody really would talk. So I kind of -- I just took 5 off and like I said I got word about Les Jewel what with 6 what happened to him at Manitoulin. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: And I was told he was nothing but 9 trouble. And there was different things but I can't 10 remember everything really what happened, what I heard I 11 mean. 12 Q: Can you tell us what happened at the 13 meeting at Kettle Point? 14 A: Well, there was a lot of other chiefs 15 also there and the concern I think it was about Les Jewel 16 and, like, I can remember the name Doxtator. But there 17 was one (1) chief there that -- well, he called himself a 18 chief but he is a self-appointed. 19 And there were other chiefs said we want 20 these individuals out of there and they more or less kind 21 of -- went at this one (1) person. 22 Q: Who was that? 23 A: I don't remember his name. Like I 24 said he was a self-appointed chief. 25 Q: All right.
2291 A: He was supposed to be a traditional 2 chief, like, for the Warriors. 3 Q: Do you know from what nation? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. And what was the result of 6 this meeting at Kettle Point? 7 A: Well, like I said, they all went at 8 him and said, Well, I'll deal with it right away. And 9 like, he took off right away, quick, and some of them 10 left but like I said, there was a few, the odd straggler 11 still a little bit behind. 12 Q: Now, was there a march to -- to force 13 these individuals to leave? 14 A: Not that I was involved with. 15 Q: All right. After you left Stoney 16 Point in and around the spring of 1995, did you -- did 17 you return over the summer or fall? 18 A: No, I didn't. 19 Q: All right. Had you any involvement 20 with an individual named Bruce Elijah or with Bob Antone 21 prior to leaving to the -- leaving the community at 22 Stoney Point? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you have any reason to believe 25 Oneida renewed its involvement, notwithstanding your
2301 prior request that they not become involved? 2 A: Well, like I say, when I left -- when 3 we met with chiefs or the warriors, they -- they were 4 told they were supposed to all leave. And the majority 5 of them, they did -- they didn't never, ever came back. 6 Like, there -- like I said, there was only 7 a few people that wouldn't listen to their chiefs, so 8 those are the only ones that came back. 9 Q: In view -- in your view, were these 10 matters that you've talked about positive or negative 11 developments with respect to the efforts to reclaim the 12 Stoney Point land? 13 A: To me it was negative. 14 Q: Why? 15 A: Because I seen that problems could 16 occur there. And in my opinion, if there's a problem, 17 nobody's going to listen to you. They won't -- they 18 won't do anything, everything will come to a standstill, 19 and that's not what I wanted to accomplish. 20 Q: I'd like you to turn to Tab 48 which 21 is Inquiry Document Number 1003678. It's an article in 22 the Sarnia Observer, dated August the 3rd, 1995. It's 23 entitled "Outsiders Say They're Staying at Ipperwash". 24 And if you look on the third column, 25 second paragraph, it reads as follows:
2311 "Carl George who was elected but then 2 denounced as the occupiers' chief, said 3 today, 'A small handful of outsiders 4 maybe four (4) or five (5) are behind 5 the agitation. I don't know what their 6 purpose is. They may think they're 7 helping, but they're not'." 8 Do you recall making statements to that 9 effect to the media? 10 A: I probably did. 11 Q: Can we make that the next exhibit, 12 please? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-194. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 194. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-194: Document 1003678 Sarnia 17 Observer Article "Outsiders 18 Say They're Staying at 19 Ipperwash" August 03/'95 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Now, when is the first time that you 23 found out about the occupation of the built-up area? 24 A: That was after I left. I believe it 25 was in the summer.
2321 Q: Right. 2 A: Of '95. 3 Q: And how did you find out about this 4 occupation, this advancement and the occupation? 5 A: Well, when it did happen everybody 6 was talking about it. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: So everybody was talking about it, so 9 everybody knew about it. 10 Q: Did you have any advance notice that 11 there was an intention to take over the barracks? 12 A: No. 13 Q: What was your reaction when you found 14 out what had happened? 15 A: Well, I -- it was a shock to me and 16 it was nothing that I wanted to see happen. But since it 17 happened, it happened and there's nothing I could have 18 done about it or anybody else. 19 Q: Did anyone from the Ontario 20 Provincial Police or the Military attempt to contact you 21 to seek any advice or views, given your -- your prior 22 association with the group? 23 A: Not that I can recall, no. 24 Q: Did Chief Bressette ask you for any 25 assistance or advice?
2331 A: No. 2 Q: When did you first find out about the 3 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 4 A: Well, I think that was probably 5 around the same time the -- when Dudley got shot, because 6 I, like I said, really, I washed my hands of it and I 7 didn't keep close tabs on anything at that time. 8 Q: Did you have any advance notice of an 9 intention to occupy the Park on September the 4th, '95? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And what was your reaction 12 when you found out that this had happened? 13 A: Well, once again, that wasn't part of 14 what I figured and it was a shock and I didn't like it, 15 because I felt somebody would have probably got hurt. 16 Q: Again, did anyone from the OPP 17 attempt to contact you to seek any assistance or advice 18 with respect to this matter? 19 A: I don't think so. 20 Q: Did anyone from the Chief and Band 21 Council of Kettle and Stony Point -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- contact you? And what was your 24 reaction when you found out about the fate of Dudley 25 George?
2341 A: About the what? 2 Q: Dudley George? 3 A: Well, it was a shock and it was -- it 4 was sad, and -- because Dudley was, to me, like I said, 5 he was, like a happy-go-lucky guy, he tried to help 6 everybody. I never known him to carry a weapon. He 7 drank, but, you know, that's -- that's what everybody 8 known him and everybody joked around with him, laughed 9 with him, and... 10 Like even to DND, while he was there, 11 like, they had thought it was amusing because Dudley 12 would, when they rode by, Dudley would go out and he'd 13 scream and holler, and he give them the finger, and 14 they'd stop, and they would make a joke and say, yeah, we 15 know we're number one (1), and Dudley just burst out 16 laughing. And there's times he just went out there and 17 talked with them. 18 So every had known him as, like I said, 19 just a happy-go-lucky kind of a guy. 20 Q: All right. And you indicated that 21 you never knew him to have a gun. Did you know as to 22 whether or not he hunted from time to time? 23 A: I never known him to go hunting, no. 24 Q: And we looked a little bit earlier at 25 a statement, Tab 46, under the entry, April 20th, 1994,
2351 it was Inquiry Document 2003357, page 2, and it's 2 Exhibit P-193, wherein, you reportedly indicated that 3 there was a high-powered rifle in the closet at Dudley 4 George's. 5 Now, can you explain whose rifle that was? 6 A: Well, he told me that it was Marlin 7 Simon's. 8 Q: All right. Now, did you understand 9 that some people from the Stony Point community thought 10 that you were a traitor? 11 A: Well, yeah, I was told that. 12 Q: And we have Minutes of a General Band 13 Meeting, dated August 1st, 1995, it's Exhibit P-43, and 14 according to this, you were in attendance at this 15 meeting, with Chief Tom Bressette and others; do you 16 recall that? 17 A: Not off hand, I don't. 18 Q: Now there's -- the following is 19 attributed to you, I'll quote: 20 "I would like to speak on this paper 21 here. Three years ago, we started 22 talking about this here. A lot of 23 people don't like me right now, but I 24 push for this because I thought 25 everyone should be treated fairly.
2361 There was a lack of communication. 2 The only thing we were trying to do was 3 to get people to pull together. With 4 this paper here, I had a few friends or 5 I thought I had, but they are against 6 me now, but I don't know what else to 7 do. 8 I work with Tom and I'm hated for that, 9 called a traitor. I know I have made a 10 lot of mistakes but I am man enough to 11 admit them. 12 I hope we can try to pull together. I 13 feel sorry for the people at Stoney 14 Point but I'm not wanted there any 15 more. People are coming in from other 16 reserves and from the States. 17 It was suggested that the council go 18 there and exert their authority but 19 everyone has to be behind them, 20 everyone on this reserve. 21 We have to get something resolved here 22 and fairly fast. This has gone on long 23 enough. I lost a brother over this. 24 It's not easy." 25 Now, do you recall making statements like
2371 that at a Band council meeting? 2 A: Since you read it, yes, it does bring 3 back -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- a few memories about a letter like 6 that, yes. 7 Q: And is this -- these -- these are 8 sentiments that you were feeling at the time? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what was your aim at the meeting 11 through these statements? 12 A: To get the people to understand that 13 they have -- they have to work together and they can't -- 14 nothing's going to get solved when everybody's arguing 15 and -- arguing amongst each other and they had to more or 16 less pull together and work as one (1) so we can get 17 somewhere. 18 Because the government will not talk to 19 anyone that's arguing and they even said that, I think if 20 I can recall, there's one (1) -- was one (1) clipping of 21 a newspaper saying that they can't even control 22 themselves. 23 But this is the whole scheme, in my 24 opinion, that the government is looking for and -- in 25 regards to saying, well, we're not going to deal with
2381 this because they're arguing. 2 So that's another stalling tactic as far 3 as I'm -- I'm concerned. And I think a lot of people 4 will agree with the same thing I -- I'm saying. 5 Q: And did you see the need for the -- 6 the people at the Kettle Point reserve to -- to take an 7 active role in what was going on over at Stoney Point? 8 A: To try to work together, that's what 9 I tried to accomplish and to take a role in what was 10 happening. You know, it was up to them, but my opinion 11 was to try to get everybody working together. 12 Q: And did -- were you successful in 13 that -- in that request? 14 A: A lot of people did understand, but 15 not everybody, no. 16 Q: And I'm just noticing the last 17 statement in -- in the piece I read to you. You said: 18 "I lost a brother over this. It's not 19 easy." 20 Can you tell me what that was in relation 21 to? Did this have anything to do with the occupation? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2391 Q: All right, that's fine. 2 A: I can't speak on that. 3 Q: That's -- if it didn't have anything 4 to do with the occupation, then I don't think that it's 5 relevant, thank you. 6 Now on reflection, what do you think might 7 have been done in order to prevent the confrontation 8 which ultimately occurred on the night of September the 9 6th, 1995 at the Park? 10 A: Well, the government has to deal with 11 problems instead of making excuses. Like for years they 12 -- like Stoney Point is the smallest land claim in 13 Ontario and they can't deal with it. They keep giving 14 excuses. 15 What they got to do is get off their butt 16 and deal with it instead of giving excuses and letting it 17 lead on and on and on. Because the way -- the reason why 18 they -- the outcome of their leading stuff on and giving 19 promises, is when people try to take charge of stuff and 20 it's the people that gets hurt. 21 The government, the way I feel, they -- 22 they have everything planned. They want excuses so they 23 can't deal with it, but they have to sooner or later, 24 fulfill the agreements that they said they were going to, 25 like, give the land back, why don't they? Like
2401 everything takes so long. 2 And I can look back at a few of the other 3 land claims, and people are still fighting to this day. 4 Q: And what do you think should now 5 happen to the Park and the Army Camp lands? 6 A: Well, I think it should be, like, 7 given back, but I think everybody knows that there's so 8 much chemicals and stuff buried and that on the land, it 9 wouldn't even be safe to live on. 10 Like, if they tried to clean it, it's 11 impossible, they could dig 'til their heart's content and 12 they would never get to the bottom where the -- there's 13 chemicals, because it'll keep rising and rising, no 14 matter how much dirt they took out. 15 I heard that they even suggested they take 16 six (6) feet out, but six (6) feet you can fill back in 17 and then in a year's time, all that stuff is coming to 18 the top anyway, and there's a lot -- so much stuff buried 19 in there. 20 What they should do is get money so that 21 they can buy more land and just leave, like, the -- the 22 Camp part there as a wild preserve, give the beachfront 23 back, and the Provincial Park, the Reserves and the 24 people can use the land and they can do something for 25 themselves, because Native people have all the bad land.
2411 All the good stuff is taken from them or cottages, and 2 the people live back in swamps and stuff, and I think, 3 like, the people are just getting tired of this. 4 Q: Thank you. I want to thank you, very 5 much, Mr. Tolsma; that concludes my Examination. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I wonder if, before we 7 break for the day, we might canvass counsel with respect 8 to their projected cross-examination. I'm advised, and I 9 just wish to confirm, Mr. Tolsma, that you would be 10 available on February the 21st, -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- to attend? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Can 16 we get a rough indication at this time about who wishes 17 to cross-examine and how long you might expect? Would 18 somebody write this down? Terry, you got it? Okay. 19 Yes, Mr. Klippenstein...? 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: I would say 21 three-quarters of an hour to an hour and a quarter. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Mr. 23 Rosenthal...? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An hour and a half 25 to two (2), sir.
2421 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Mr. 2 Ross...? 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: An hour and a half, 4 depending on the answers from Mr. Klippenstein and Mr. 5 Rosenthal. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we 7 understand that. And, Mr. George...? 8 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: One (1) hour. 9 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: Twenty (20) minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Ms. 11 Tuck-Jackson...? 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: An hour and a 13 half to two (2) hours. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 15 Roland...? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Three (3) to four (4). 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three (3) to 18 four (4) hours? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not days? 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Half a day. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three (3) to 23 four (4) hours. And Ms. McAleer...? 24 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Two (2) to three 25 (3) hours.
2431 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Sulman...? 3 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Fifteen (15) to 4 twenty (20) minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, I'm not 6 sure which goes first, probably you do. 7 MS. MELISSA PANJER: Possibly for a short 8 time. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 10 Eylofson...? 11 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Maybe five (5) 12 minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it looks 14 like we have a bit of time, and that will be the week of 15 February 21st, right? We're not here next week. We do 16 Mr. French tomorrow, and then we come back and do cross- 17 examination. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's correct. You 19 will recall that we had scheduling issues, which is why 20 we're breaking the examination, and postponing the cross- 21 examination. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I 23 don't think I want to start now at 4:15. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't think that 25 would be advisable either.
2441 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, we will 2 adjourn now until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 3 And we will see you again, Mr. Tolsma, on 4 Monday, the 21st of February. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And that would be at 6 10:30 -- 7 THE WITNESS: 10:30. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- we would be 9 starting. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 10:30. 11 That's right, because we come up from out of town that 12 morning. Is 10:30 all right with you? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's fine. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. We will adjourn now for the day. 16 17 (WITNESS RETIRES) 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday February the 10th at 21 9:00 a.m. 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 4:15 p.m. 24 25
2451 2 Certified Correct 3 4 5 6 7 ______________________ 8 Wendy Warnock 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25