11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 8th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 Jeremiah James George, Resumed 6 Cross-examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 7 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 11 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 14 9 Cross-examination by Mr. Ian Roland 21 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Hourigan 75 11 Re-Direct Examination br Mr. Donald Worme 84 12 13 Charles Francis George, Affirmed 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 87 15 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 197 16 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 201 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 214 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 260 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 272 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-161 Document 1002409, Page 13, Map of 97 4 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 5 Witness Charles George, February 08/05 6 7 P-162 "Stan" Thompson drawing September 122 8 20/'95 Marked by Witness Charles George, 9 February 08/'95 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner. We still have the witness Jeremiah George 8 on the stand and I've reminded him that he remains under 9 oath. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. Good morning. Who's first up. I guess it's 12 Mr. Orkin. 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Good morning, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 16 morning. 17 18 JEREMIAH JAMES GEORGE, Resumed: 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 21 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 22 A: Good morning. 23 Q: My name is Andrew Orkin. I'm Co- 24 counsel to the Dudley George Estate and the Sam George 25 Family Group and its members. I have only a few
81 questions for you. 2 Yesterday you testified that as a result 3 of hearing and your brother hearing on a police scanner 4 that it was likely that the police were moving in on the 5 occupiers at the -- at the Camp. 6 That as a result of hearing that, you and 7 your brother made efforts to go down to the Camp, is that 8 correct? 9 A: Yes, it's correct. 10 Q: To the Park, excuse me. 11 A: Yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Mr. 13 Roland is rising. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: My Friend has to get the 15 evidence right. As I reviewed the evidence last night, 16 this witness said he didn't hear anything on the scanner 17 himself. It was his brother who heard on the scanner and 18 relayed it to him. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's correct, 20 sorry. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: My Friend has then said 22 you heard it on the scanner with your brother which isn't 23 the accurate. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much, Mr. Roland.
91 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you for the 2 correction, Mr. Roland. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 5 Q: It was as a result of his brother 6 having heard and he having heard from your brother? 7 A: Yes, sorry. 8 Q: Thank you. You then made efforts, 9 you testified, to get down to the Park and having failed 10 to get there via a police checkpoint, you went there by 11 another route? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: You did manage along with your 14 brother to reach the vicinity of the Park and boundary of 15 the Park? 16 A: Yes, that's correct. 17 Q: And to engage in conversation with 18 some of the people who were occupying the Park at that 19 time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: In the course of engaging in that 22 conversation, were you able to gain a general impression 23 of the circumstances in the Park at that time, the number 24 of people and the mood and the amount of activity? 25 A: Yeah, but not fully.
101 Q: Not fully? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: But within the vicinity in which you 4 were standing? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that was in the vicinity of the 7 sandy parking lot and the -- and the boundary of the 8 Park? 9 A: Not the full parking lot. 10 Q: Not the full parking lot? 11 A: Yeah, just a few minutes before -- 12 Q: You then testified that you had seen 13 or saw a number of police officers wearing what you 14 called riot -- riot gear? Riot police gear? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. And you gave us an impression 17 that you -- you -- you saw a -- a number of -- a certain 18 number of police officers. 19 Could you -- could you remind us what that 20 number was? 21 A: I said maybe thirty (30) wide and I 22 don't know how many behind us, roughly one (1) to two 23 hundred (200), I believe I said that. 24 Q: Right. In your view, on the basis of 25 what you saw in terms of numbers of people in the Park at
111 that time, occupying the vicinity of the Park that you 2 saw, was there anything in -- in your view as an observer 3 that justified the number of police officers you saw in 4 riot gear? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Was there anything that justified in 7 your view looking at what you saw in the Park in terms of 8 activity that justified a riot force, which we would 9 understand from its name is to confront riots? 10 A: No, I don't believe that was 11 justified as well. 12 Q: Thank you. Those are all of my 13 questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Mr. Orkin. Ms. Esmonde...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 18 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 19 A: Morning. 20 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde, I'm one 21 (1) of the lawyers representing the Aazhoodena and George 22 Family Group which includes some of the descendants of 23 Dan and Melva George. I also just have a few questions 24 for you this morning. 25 Now, I understand you were nineteen (19)
121 at the time of these events in September of 1995; is that 2 correct? 3 A: Yes, I -- yes. 4 Q: And you understood from your brother 5 Bernard George, you told us yesterday, that the police 6 were moving in in force. 7 And do I understand you that it was your 8 understanding from what was told to you that the police 9 were moving into the Park? 10 A: That they were moving in to move the 11 occupiers out, yes. 12 Q: To move the occupiers out of the 13 Park? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Now, later after you had heard the 16 shooting and you were on the beach you told us about your 17 encounter with Chief Tom Bressette, Gerald George, 18 Roseanne (phonetic) Bressette and Deanna (phonetic) 19 Bressette. 20 Did you hear Chief Tom Bressette say 21 anything to the effect of, It's Mike Harris' fault, 22 that's what he wanted? 23 A: No, I don't recall that statement 24 particularly, no. 25 Q: When Gerald George was here January
131 13th of 2005 he said, We were all saying that, some -- 2 that we were all saying it was Mike Harris' fault. 3 Did you ever say Gerald George say 4 anything to that effect? 5 A: No, I don't remember that statement 6 completely, no. 7 Q: Now, you told us yesterday that you 8 had kicked the St. John's Ambulance vehicle in the MNR 9 parking on September 7th? 10 A: Yes, that's correct, I did say that. 11 Q: And why did you do that? 12 A: I had a lot of emotions then. I just 13 probably felt -- I don't know -- 14 Q: Now, I've come to learn that hunting 15 season is generally from fall -- fall to winter, perhaps 16 October to February? Is that right? 17 A: I also stated I'm not much of a 18 hunter, so. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I couldn't tell you the seasons. 21 Q: Okay. You were telling us about 22 people hunting at Stoney Point and hunting for deer? 23 A: I just recall seeing deer. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: So, it's just a normal thing for
141 natives to do, I guess. 2 Q: Is it your understanding that people 3 were hunting during the hunting season? 4 A: Yeah, I believe I did see deer. 5 Q: And when you saw deer it was in the 6 fall or winter? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Thank you, those are all my 9 questions. Thank you very much for coming. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. Is that Mr. Ross, are you -- did you have any 12 questions, I don't recall. Yes. Anybody else? Mr. 13 Rosenthal, no, Ms. Esmonde has just done it, so that's 14 fine. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 19 Q: Mr. George, my name is Anthony Ross 20 and I represent the residents of Aazhoodena. Now you 21 were living at Stoney Point in 1993. Am I correct with 22 that? 23 A: No, I've never lived in Stoney Point. 24 Q: Sorry, Kettle Point in 1993? 25 A: Yes, yeah.
151 Q: Now, that was the year when people 2 moved onto the range. Do you -- do you recall that? 3 A: Yes, I recall people living on the 4 range. 5 Q: Did you visit the range at any time? 6 A: Yes, I did. I believe I stated I 7 did. 8 Q: You believe what? 9 A: I believe that I stated that I went 10 to see people. 11 Q: Did you overnight on the range from 12 time to time? 13 A: Pardon me? 14 Q: Did you overnight? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: I see. You just visited from time to 17 time during the occupation after May 1993? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Now did you understand the reason for 20 the occupation in May 1993? 21 A: The reason has always been to try to 22 get the land back. 23 Q: Trying to get the land back. Is it 24 fair to say that it was an effort to bring political 25 pressure on the Government of Canada so that they'll
161 change their position and return the land? 2 A: Yes, that's correct. 3 Q: And do you agree with me that that 4 was a worthwhile approach after years of unsuccessful 5 negotiation? 6 A: Yes. I believe it was. 7 Q: And throughout 1993 there were not 8 any incidents or con -- no confrontation that led to any 9 problems. 10 Is that correct, to the best of your 11 knowledge? 12 A: To the best of my knowledge. 13 Q: And the same for 1994? 14 A: Yes, that's correct. 15 Q: And would you agree with me that but 16 for what happened around September 1995 -- would you 17 agree with me that but for what happened in 1995 around 18 September it still would have been a good idea to keep 19 occupying the range until the government responded 20 seriously to the claims of the original owners of that 21 land? 22 A: If they would have just stayed in the 23 range? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And never moved any -- anywhere
171 further? 2 Q: Well, now you recognize that around 3 July of 1995 they moved and occupied the barracks? 4 A: I -- I'm not sure of the dates, no. 5 Q: You were -- but -- but you knew that 6 they occupied the barracks at one (1) point? 7 A: Yeah, I knew they occupied the -- 8 Q: And that did not result in any 9 confrontation. The Military moved out, gave them the key 10 showed them how to operate different systems? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: That was not a problem, was it? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No. So really the difficulty results 15 from the occupation of what was Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 and the confrontation thereafter. 17 Is that a fair statement, in your view? 18 A: Can you say that again? 19 Q: The difficulty developed after the 20 occupation of what was Ipperwash Provincial Park and the 21 confrontation which flowed from it, resulting in the 22 death of Dudley George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. So that -- and you moved away 25 from the area in 1996, am I correct?
181 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And was it a permanent move? Did you 3 go to -- to Edmonton or to Alberta and stay there or -- 4 or have you back for periods of time? 5 A: No, I just recently moved to Calgary. 6 Q: You just moved to Calgary. In your - 7 - my -- my understanding of your evidence to -- to Mr. 8 Worme that you -- you moved away in 1996. 9 A: Yeah. I moved away from Kettle Point 10 and I stated that I moved to Sarnia and Windsor and 11 London. I just recently moved to Calgary -- 12 Q: I see. 13 A: -- like, seven (7) months ago. 14 Q: I see. I see. As far as the -- the 15 individuals who -- who made the move onto the range back 16 in 1993, my understanding that nobody was looking for -- 17 for any individual gain. There was no idea for instance, 18 that Carl George or -- or Maynard George or anybody was 19 looking for a deed in their own name. It was party of a 20 political move on behalf of the original owners of that 21 land. 22 Was that your understanding? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, recognizing that you were just 25 around nineteen (19) at that time, is it fair to say that
191 you -- you had heard stories about attempts by your 2 people to get back those lands since 1942? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And you were living at Kettle Point 5 when Clifford George was arrested in 1993? 6 A: I'm not aware, I don't -- 7 Q: You weren't aware of that? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: You don't recall that? Fine. Were 10 you aware that Clifford George was arrested with respect 11 to actions on that land? 12 A: No, I wasn't aware of that. 13 Q: Okay. But you heard from your elders 14 about attempts to get the lands back going back to 1942? 15 A: Yes. I'm not sure of, like, all 16 instances or, like -- but I -- I knew that they did want 17 it back. 18 Q: And there were general efforts 19 attempting to get the land back? 20 A: I'm not particularly sure of any, 21 like, of all or what circumstances were -- 22 Q: No, I'm not asking for all of them, 23 I'm asking just about the general understanding that this 24 land was never abandoned and it was always the intent to 25 get that land back to the original owners.
201 A: Yes. Okay, yes, that's -- that's a 2 fair statement. Yeah. 3 Q: And negotiations did not appear to be 4 going anywhere as evidenced by the fact that up to 1993 5 the lands were still in the hands of the Federal 6 Government? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: So the actions in 1993, as far as the 9 occupation is concerned, is it fair to classify these as 10 political actions intended to influence government 11 policy? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you very much, sir, those are 14 my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I have no 18 questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have no 20 questions. 21 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: I have no questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 23 questions? Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I have no 25 questions either, Commissioner.
211 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Roland...? 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: Good morning, Mr. George, my name's 6 Ian Roland and I represent the Ontario Provincial Police 7 Association and I have a few questions for you this 8 morning. 9 Let me begin with the evidence really 10 largely in the order in which you gave it yesterday in 11 response to Mr. Worme's questions. And early in your 12 evidence he asked you about hunting at Stoney Point and 13 you indicated that you -- you were hunting there 14 occasionally. You were asked who you hunted with and you 15 said, My brother's cousins. 16 Now, Mr. Worme didn't ask you which 17 brothers and which cousins, so I'm going to ask you that 18 question. Which brothers and which cousins did you hunt 19 with at Stoney Point? 20 A: I don't know if I find that a 21 relevant question or -- 22 Q: Well, that's for the Commissioner 23 to -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 25 answer the question, sir; that's the way to determine
221 that they're not -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. I said -- I said my 3 brother and some cousins and I didn't say my brother and 4 his cousins because they'd be -- we'd be the same 5 cousins. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: No, no. You said, "My brother's 9 cousins" and let's start with your brothers, which -- 10 A: Well, maybe it didn't come out 11 clearly. I meant to say my brother and his cousins. 12 Q: All right. Sorry. 13 A: Which is -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I mean, my brother and -- and 16 cousins, like -- because they'd be the same cousins as 17 mine. 18 Q: Whatever, just -- 19 A: Yeah, okay. 20 Q: -- tell -- tell us who the 21 individuals were if you could? 22 A: At the time it was -- it'd just been 23 people that I've always hung out with, Darryl Riley 24 (phonetic), Wolf Boslow (phonetic) -- 25 Q: Sorry?
231 A: Wolf Boslow, Marshall Bressette -- 2 Q: Can you spell -- Wolf Boslow? I don't 3 know who -- 4 A: Wolf -- Wolfie? 5 Q: Wolf? 6 A: Boslow. I don't know how you spell, 7 Boslow. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I couldn't if I tried. 10 Q: All right. Sorry, after that? 11 A: Marshall Bressette. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Albert George would be my brother. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: That's about it, really. 16 Q: Okay. And when you were hunting with 17 your brother and cousins, were you hunting deer? 18 A: I only went a few times and didn't 19 get anything the times that I went. 20 Q: What were you trying to hunt? What 21 were you looking for to hunt? 22 A: At that time it was rabbits were in 23 season and deer. 24 Q: Okay. Now then Mr. Worme asked you 25 about visits to the barracks once the occupiers had
241 entered the Army barracks and you were asked if you had 2 an occasion to visit. And you said that you went to 3 visit your brother when you could. Mr. Worme then asked 4 you, I take it on more than one (1) occasion. He assumed 5 it was more than one occasion and you said, Yeah. 6 About how many occasions did you visit the 7 barracks between July 29,'95 which was the date that they 8 were occupied by the occupiers and September 6th, '95? 9 A: Twenty (20) or thirty (30) times 10 maybe. 11 Q: Twenty (20) or thirty (30) times? 12 A: Yes. Somewhere around there 13 Q: So almost on a daily basis? 14 A: Actually wait -- no. From -- okay 15 where did you say? 16 Q: July -- the barracks. To help you 17 the barracks -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- were occupied by the occupiers on 20 -- who had been on the range, on July 29, 1995. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: A little over a month later the 23 incident occurred at the Park. We know that Dudley 24 George was shot and killed on September 6th, '95, so 25 we're talking about a month and a week, maybe five (5)
251 weeks. And it's that five (5) week period I'm asking 2 about. 3 How often you visited your brother in the 4 barracks? 5 A: Actually no, it wasn't that many 6 times. Two (2) three (3) times maybe. 7 Q: Okay. Now Mr. Worme asked you 8 yesterday about folks who were the occupiers of the 9 barracks, he referred to them as folks, with a different 10 political out -- outlook. Do you remember that? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: He asked you about that and you said 13 yes, you had to have him explain what he meant, but you 14 then said, that you think there was some disagreement on 15 how the council was being run at Kettle Point. And you 16 talked about the fact that they, the occupiers, didn't 17 like how the chief was running it and so on. 18 Do you remember saying that yesterday? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And I'm going to ask you 21 about a matter that occurred during the occupation. But 22 before I do, I want to ask you a little bit about your -- 23 your brother Cecil Bernard George. He's -- he's quite a 24 lot older than you I gather? 25 A: Yeah, he's older than I am.
261 Q: And are you close to him and were you 2 close to him back in 1995; that is, did you have a close 3 relationship as brothers? 4 A: Probably close as an older brother 5 and younger sibling can have I guess. 6 Q: Yes. And did you see him quite 7 frequently? 8 A: Typically, I guess. 9 Q: Like more than -- more than weekly? 10 A: Not more than weekly, no. 11 Q: So you didn't see him on a daily 12 basis? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Would you see him at least once a 15 week or a couple of times a week? 16 A: Maybe once a month, maybe. 17 Q: Once a month, okay. We know that and 18 you've told us this, on September the 6th you went to his 19 home, you visited him at his own on September the 6th. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Yes. And when you were visiting or 22 meeting or seeing him, would you tend to visit him at his 23 home? 24 A: I just stated -- maybe once a month. 25 Q: Yeah. Okay. Where did you live
271 yourself in September -- in August and September of '95 2 at Kettle Point? 3 A: My mother's residence. 4 Q: All right. And was that close to 5 your brother's residence or not? 6 A: No, it wasn't. 7 Q: Now we've heard that there was a 8 meeting of the members of the Kettle Point residents on 9 August the 1st, '95. It was a meeting that immediately 10 followed the occupation, which remember I've told you 11 occurred on July 29, '95 and it was a fairly large 12 meeting. There were a lot of Kettle Point residents and 13 I assume a few Stoney Point residents in attendance. 14 Did you attend that meeting? 15 A: No, I didn't. 16 Q: All right. Did you hear about the 17 meeting? 18 A: I wasn't even aware of it until now. 19 Q: All right. Were you aware that, as I 20 gather, during August of '95 that there was some -- as 21 Mr. Worme would call it, some political difference 22 between the Stoney Point occupiers and the Kettle Point 23 residents about the -- the propriety of the occupation, 24 whether they -- the Stoney Pointers should have taken 25 over the barracks or not?
281 A: I don't know, I'm not -- I'm not 2 aware of any meetings or anything that took place. I 3 didn't involve myself in any meetings whatsoever so I 4 couldn't make any kind of statement on any kind of 5 meetings. 6 Q: All right. So you -- you didn't -- 7 apart from meetings were you aware of a difference 8 between the Stoney Point occupiers on the one (1) hand 9 and the Kettle Point residents on the other concerning -- 10 the difference was concerning whether or not it was 11 something that -- that the occupation was something that 12 should or shouldn't have occurred? 13 A: Yes, I was aware of that. I've 14 heard -- 15 Q: You heard that? 16 A: I've heard that. 17 Q: Okay. And did you know that your 18 brother Cecil Bernard, on Saturday, August the 12th went 19 to the barracks and issued a warning to Les Jewel that he 20 and his warriors are to leave the Camp by that day? 21 A: Like I said, I don't know, I wasn't 22 aware of any sort of political action that took place. 23 I -- 24 Q: So you didn't know that your brother 25 had done that; that he had gone --
291 A: No. 2 Q: -- to issue that direction and 3 warning to Les Jewel and the -- referred to as, the -- 4 "his warriors" to leave the Camp barracks? 5 A: I'm not aware of that, no. 6 Q: For the record, I'm referring to a 7 recently produced DND document that indicates this 8 incident occurred. We've just come across this, it's 9 Document 7000358. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, in the course of giving your 14 account of what you saw on the roadway on the evening of 15 September the 6th, you referred to the police dressed in 16 bullet-proof vests with shields and assault rifles. And 17 having said that, Mr. Worme asked you: 18 "Okay, I take it you know something 19 about firearms?" 20 He seems to assume you do, and you say: 21 "Yeah." 22 And then you go on to say, when he asks 23 you about -- more particular about the firearms and to 24 describe them you say: 25 "I -- I know guns, but I don't know,
301 like, what kind of guns they were." 2 Do you remember saying that yesterday? 3 A: Yeah, I remember saying that. 4 Q: And let me ask you about firearms. 5 You say you're not much of a hunter? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And so I take it you don't use, and 8 haven't in your life, used firearms much, if at all? 9 A: I've used firearms. 10 Q: You have? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And do you collect firearms? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: Do you own firearms? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Have you ever owned firearms? 17 A: No, I don't, or I haven't. Sorry. 18 Q: Have you ever purchased any firearms? 19 A: No, I haven't. 20 Q: Have you ever had any training -- 21 formal training -- in fire -- use of firearms? 22 A: No, I haven't had any sort of 23 training. 24 Q: Okay. So you don't really know that 25 much about firearms then, do you?
311 A: I know enough. 2 Q: Well, -- 3 A: I -- I feel I know enough. I can 4 load one, but -- 5 Q: You can load one and you can -- 6 A: Clean one, I -- I don't know. I just 7 don't -- I'm not particular on what makes and models 8 and -- 9 Q: Kinds of firearms? 10 A: -- types of bullets. Yeah. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: I don't know. I guess I know 13 firearms, but I'm not an expert. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: Is -- if that's what you're implying. 16 Q: Yeah. And so it -- and I take it you 17 couldn't -- if shown a firearm you couldn't tell whether 18 it -- what -- what calibre it was or what make it was and 19 so on? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: You could not tell that? 22 A: If it was a particular gun I knew I 23 could, but if it was, I don't know, like a -- 24 Q: A gun you weren't familiar with -- 25 A: -- M-15 I wouldn't know.
321 Q: Okay. 2 A: You know? 3 Q: Okay, let me then take you to 4 September the 6th. And you told Mr. Worme yesterday that 5 it was in the evening time and you went to your brother's 6 house, that is Cecil Bernard's house, at Kettle Point. 7 And can you tell us about what time you 8 did that, what time you went? 9 A: I believe I said it was in the 10 evening, so. 11 Q: And was it still -- was -- was it, at 12 the time you went to his house, not when you left, but 13 the time you went to his house, was it still -- 14 A: It was getting dark. 15 Q: It was getting dark, was it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Was -- had the sun set at that stage? 18 A: It was about setting. 19 Q: It was about to set? 20 A: Yeah, like, half hour to go maybe. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: It was getting pretty dark, yeah. 23 Q: All right, and so -- and how long 24 were you at his house? 25 A: Not very long, half hour, because
331 when we left his house it was dark. 2 Q: It was dark? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Because you told us -- 5 A: I believe it was dark. 6 Q: You told us yesterday that when you 7 left his house and your drove with your brother and 8 Roseanne, his wife, that you went towards the Park and 9 you were stopped by a police barricade and you backed up 10 and got out to the beach. And you said at that stage 11 when asked at approximately what time it was, you said: 12 "It was, I believe the sun had gone 13 down". 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right, now you're down at the beach-- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- and the beach faces -- when you're 18 at the beach, you're facing in a -- in a north and 19 westerly direction, right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And the sun sets in the west, we all 22 know that? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And was it twilight? Could you see 25 to walk along the beach or was it dark at that stage?
341 A: It was dark. There was -- I believe 2 there was a full moon, I think. I don't know, I don't 3 remember. 4 Q: You don't remember? 5 A: Particularly, no. 6 Q: All right, and -- and so it was about 7 then, you say, it was about twilight, the sun had gone 8 down. 9 You went to your brother's house, you were 10 there half an hour or less? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: You then went -- drove along to get 13 to the Park, were stopped, backed up, went to the beach, 14 walked along the beach with your brother. He's testified 15 that took about five (5) minutes to get to the Park; is 16 that a fair estimate? 17 A: Yes, about five (5) minutes. 18 Q: All right, and so have -- having left 19 your brother's house and getting to the Park, would it be 20 fair to say that would be ten (10) maybe fifteen (15) 21 minutes? 22 A: To get from my brother's to the Park? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Yeah, like it's probably, roughly. 25 Q: Okay.
351 A: Not exactly fifteen (15) minutes. 2 Could be over, could be under. 3 Q: All right, all right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now, did you -- had you realized at 8 that stage that your brother had been to the Park earlier 9 that evening? Had he told you that? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: All right, and did he -- do you 12 recall that he had, at some stage, been to the Park, and 13 left a scanner at the Park? 14 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall. 15 Q: Yeah, all right. You've told us that 16 don't recall your brother carrying anything with him when 17 you and he walked along the beach? 18 A: That's -- yeah, that's what I said 19 and that's -- I don't believe he was carrying anything or 20 I can't remember. 21 Q: All right, but we do know from his 22 evidence and from others, including your brother Stacey, 23 that he had walkie-talkies with him. And you -- you've 24 told us, I think, you told Mr. Worme yesterday that you'd 25 reviewed that evidence from others, from either Stacey or
361 your brother when you came to prepare to give your 2 evidence here. 3 And you realized that they had indicated 4 that -- in their evidence, that he had walkie-talkie 5 radios? 6 A: In their statements, yeah well, 7 that's to their recollection, not to mine. 8 Q: Yeah. So you don't disagree that he 9 had them, you just don't remember? 10 A: I don't remember. 11 Q: Now when you arrived at the -- at the 12 Park at the location where the beach of the Park begins, 13 we know and we've seen on the map that was put up that 14 there's a boundary line. 15 And I understand your evidence yesterday, 16 your brother Stacey was near the beach -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- on the east side, that is the Park 19 side of that boundary line? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And he was there at a fire? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. And you said to us that 24 you don't know how long you talked to him. I gather that 25 was a fairly short discussion though, was it?
371 A: Yeah. It wasn't extensive. 2 Q: And Stacey testified before us that 3 you told him that were a bunch a lot of police and that 4 the police had guns. 5 Do you remember saying that to Stacey? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: And he said that you had made your 8 observations at the end of East Parkway Drive because 9 that's where you and your brother, Cecil Bernard, had 10 walked up from. Do you remember telling him that? 11 A: No, I don't remember saying that. 12 Q: And he testified that you asked him 13 to leave to go to Kettle Point and he thinks that you 14 were scared for his safety; that is Stacey's safety. 15 Do you remember -- do you remember having 16 that emotion of being worried for Stacey's safety? 17 A: I believe I probably was. 18 Q: And did you remember asking him to 19 leave to go to -- go to Kettle Point with you? 20 A: No, I don't recall that statement. 21 Q: And Stacey says that when -- when he 22 decided not to go to stay, that you left and you left the 23 same way you came in, that is, along the beach. 24 A: I don't know if it's whatever his 25 statement. I don't know what he's -- what he remembers.
381 Q: That's what he recalls. But you say 2 you didn't leave at that stage. 3 A: I didn't leave at that stage, no I 4 didn't. 5 Q: You actually went up you say to the 6 turnstile area? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And I gather you were with Cecil 9 Bernard at the time? 10 A: Yes. Yeah I was. 11 Q: Now in Cecil Bernard's evidence, he 12 said that when he and you came upon Stacey, that he let 13 people know to be careful, that there were a lot of 14 police down the road west of the Park. 15 Do you remember Cecil saying that to 16 Stacey and the others that were with Stacey? 17 A: It's -- well I don't remember his 18 particular -- what he said in particular. I don't recall 19 any sort of statements that he made to anybody. 20 Q: So that's -- so -- you don't really 21 remember what Cecil said at all at that stage? 22 A: I don't remember, no. 23 Q: Now we know that -- that from Cecil's 24 evidence that he said he was there a very short time 25 talking to Stacey and then he walked up -- he says over
391 the hill and crossed over the fence into the Park. Did 2 you go with him? 3 A: I don't believe -- I don't remember 4 him going into the Park, no. 5 6 Q: You don't remember Cecil going into 7 the Park? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: So when you walked up from the 10 location where you had, for a very short period of time, 11 spoken to Stacey at the beach up to the turnstile area 12 inside the Park, were you with your brother or not, that 13 is, with Cecil? 14 A: I don't remember if we split up for a 15 couple minutes or two (2) or what happened during that 16 time frame there but I know I was down the road with him, 17 at some point in time. 18 Q: You were down? 19 A: On East Parkway Drive. 20 Q: Yes. All right. 21 A: With -- 22 Q: But you don't recall whether you were 23 with Cecil Bernard coming up from the beach up to the 24 turnstile area? 25 A: Then going into the Park, I can't
401 recall if I went into the -- with him at that point or if 2 I walked along the fence and met up with him at the 3 beginning of the gate. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And then proceeded to go down East 6 Parkway, I can't recall. 7 Q: You can't. Okay. Did you -- but did 8 you -- were you with him from the time that you were at 9 the turnstile gate, were you with Cecil Bernard from that 10 moment thereafter as you went down East Parkway Drive? 11 A: For a short amount of time, yeah, I 12 was with him. 13 Q: All right. Did -- before you went 14 down East Parkway Drive with Cecil Bernard, did he or you 15 go to the -- the store and make a telephone call? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: No? 18 A: I didn't make any phone calls. 19 Q: And do you recall whether Cecil made 20 any phone calls? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: And is that because you weren't with 23 him or it's because you simply don't remember? 24 A: I simply don't remember. 25 Q: Now, you were asked by Mr. Worme
411 about the lighting of the area of the turnstile and you 2 said that you thought there was a fire in the area of the 3 turnstile, on the Park side of the -- of the boundary; 4 right? 5 A: I said I wasn't exactly sure, but I 6 said there might have been. 7 Q: I see. And given that if there might 8 have been a fire, I take it you don't recall how large 9 the fire was or how much light it was giving off? 10 A: No, I don't remember. 11 Q: And you were asked by Mr. Worme about 12 how the area might have been lit up, if at all. You did 13 mention there might be a fire. 14 Was there any other lighting that you 15 recall? 16 A: No, not that I can recall. 17 Q: And it was a -- it was a dark night, 18 wasn't it. 19 A: Yeah, it was fairly dark. 20 Q: And I take it's because it was fairly 21 dark, -- 22 A: Dark enough. 23 Q: -- that you really weren't able to 24 recognize the people who were there in the area of the 25 turnstile when you came up. You've told us you didn't
421 really -- you weren't able to see them very well because 2 it was dark; is that right? 3 A: That's correct. I don't -- I don't 4 know, yeah, I just don't remember. 5 Q: How long did you and Cecil Bernard 6 remain in the Park area near the turnstile before you 7 and he headed down East Parkway Drive? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Was it -- 10 A: I can't make -- 11 Q: -- five (5) minutes, half an hour, an 12 hour. 13 A: -- I can't make any sort of 14 statement, because I don't remember. 15 Q: So it could have been a substantial 16 period of time? 17 A: It could have been, it could have 18 been a short time. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, we've heard evidence from your 23 brother, Cecil Bernard, about going down the road, and he 24 said to this Inquiry in evidence, that he had a stick in 25 his hand and one of the radios that he had brought in,
431 when he went down East Parkway Drive. 2 Do you remember him having a stick in his 3 hand and a radio in -- in the other hand? 4 A: I believe I said I didn't remember 5 what he was carrying. 6 Q: Do you remember if he was carrying 7 anything? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You don't? 10 A: No, I don't remember. 11 Q: So, as far as you can recall, he 12 wasn't carrying a thing? 13 A: I -- I can't remember if he was or if 14 he wasn't. If that's his statement, then I guess he was 15 carrying something, so why would he say he was when he 16 wasn't? I don't know. 17 Q: In any event, Mr. George, he 18 testified, that is your brother, Cecil Bernard, testified 19 that -- that two (2) young fellows came along with him, 20 and he said that it was David George and Kevin Thomas. 21 He didn't mention you, in his evidence. 22 Do you find that a little odd? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: And do you remember that David George 25 and Kevin -- do you know David George?
441 A: Yeah, I know David George. 2 Q: And do you know Kevin Thomas? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: I don't -- 6 Q: Well, when you went along East 7 Parkway Drive with Cecil Bernard, do you remember the -- 8 there were two (2) -- that David George and another 9 fellow were also with you? 10 A: No, I don't recall them. 11 Q: And David George also talked about 12 going along the -- the -- East Parkway Drive, but he 13 didn't mention you. 14 Did you see David George at all going 15 along there? 16 A: I don't remember. 17 Q: Okay. Now, you told Mr. Worme 18 yesterday that if there was any kind of lighting allowed 19 to see the police down the -- East Parkway Drive and you 20 said there was a streetlight on the right-hand side. 21 Can you tell us where that streetlight 22 was? 23 A: From the corner it was the distance 24 normal streetlights usually are, I guess, from -- where 25 the corner -- the corner here is.
451 Q: And you're -- the Witness is pointing 2 to P-23 and -- and Mr. George, could you indicate to us 3 on that if you could if -- if that exhibit represents the 4 area where the streetlight, could you indicate to us 5 where it was? 6 A: Where the streetlight was? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: It wouldn't -- it wouldn't be on 9 this, it would be down further. 10 Q: It would be -- it'd be west from P- 11 23? And how far from -- you see the driveway that is on 12 the -- that leads off from East Parkway Drive, north from 13 it, if you look at P-23. 14 A: It's probably approximately -- 15 Q: How -- how much further west of that 16 driveway? 17 A: Four (4) laneways. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Five (5)? 20 Q: And you say that streetlight allowed 21 you to see the police officers? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And were the -- when you 24 saw the police officers where were they in relationship 25 to the streetlight? Were they further west, under it, or
461 east of it? 2 A: East of it. 3 Q: They were east of it? They'd already 4 passed under it had they? 5 A: No, they were -- they were still that 6 way. 7 Q: That's -- sorry, I think that's west. 8 A: Well, west. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: They were west of it. 11 Q: So they were further along East 12 Parkway Drive than the location of the streetlight? 13 A: Yes, correct. 14 Q: And -- and when you first saw them, 15 how much beyond the streetlight were they? 16 A: I don't recall. I can't remember 17 how far, exactly, they were. 18 Q: Well, were they close enough to the 19 streetlight that you could see them visibly as a result 20 of this -- the illumination of the streetlight? 21 Were they that close to it? 22 A: They were close enough where I could 23 see there was a lot of them. 24 Q: Yeah. You've said -- you said 25 yesterday that you estimated there were about -- probably
471 about two hundred (200). And I think this morning to the 2 response of somebody else you said a hundred (100) to two 3 hundred (200). 4 The evidence is -- is going to be, I 5 understand, that there were, I think, fairly between 6 forty-five (45) and fifty (50) officers that were there 7 visible. I think the actual number, at least, shown in 8 the records is forty-two (42), but -- on the street, but 9 there may have been a few others as well. 10 Can you explain how you seemed to have 11 thought there was a hundred (100) to two hundred (200) 12 when the evidence, apparently, is going to be that there 13 were between forty (40) and fifty (50)? 14 A: Well, if that's what the evidence is, 15 then that's what it is, but to me it appeared to be that 16 many. 17 Q: It just seemed like there were a lot? 18 A: Yeah, an excessive amount of cops 19 that didn't need to be there. 20 Q: I'm sorry? 21 A: There was an excessive amount of cops 22 that didn't need to be there. 23 Q: I see. Now, so that I understand 24 your evidence, when you saw those police officers, which 25 you estimated at between a hundred (100) and two hundred
481 (200) were you next to Cecil Bernard? Were you right 2 beside him? 3 A: I can't recall where I was. 4 Q: I take it -- 5 A: Or how close he was. 6 Q: You were close enough that he spoke 7 to you and told you to go -- run back to alert -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- the people at the Park, right? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So you were within a fairly close 12 distance to him in that sense, right? 13 A: Yeah, I guess I was. 14 Q: And did you notice that he had a 15 radio in his hand at that stage and was using the radio, 16 on his evidence, to alert the people in the Park, to call 17 back on the radio to the people in the Park? 18 Did you notice that? 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: Did you hear that? 21 A: No, because we weren't hollering -- 22 Q: I'm sorry? 23 A: I said we weren't loud when were 24 there, so he could have been, like, just whispering to 25 them and then, like.
491 Q: Okay, then you say you went back to 2 the people in the Park to alert them that the police were 3 coming, let them know the police were coming? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yeah, that's what you've been -- you 6 say you were told by your brother to do, and you did it? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And then you immediately went down to 9 the beach area, you say, where your brother Stacey was? 10 A: Yeah, and that's when I talked to him 11 a second time and -- 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: I said that's when I talked to him 14 for the second time. 15 Q: Yes. And did you -- what did you say 16 to him at that stage? 17 A: I just told him that I was going 18 along the beach and to see if there was any -- any 19 officers coming up from that point. 20 Q: And why did you want to see if there 21 were any officers coming up along the beach? What was 22 your purpose? 23 A: What was my purpose? To see if there 24 was any officers coming from that point. 25 Q: But why?
501 A: I don't know. I felt that's what I 2 was going to do next, so that's what I did. 3 Q: And if you saw some officers coming 4 up the beach, what did you intend to do as a result of 5 seeing officers on the beach? 6 A: I don't know my full intentions. I 7 don't -- like my intentions were to go down there and 8 alert the occupants that the police were moving in with 9 force and that they should, like, evacuate. 10 I wasn't going there to assist them and -- 11 to have a confrontation with the police. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That wasn't my intention, so I don't 14 know what you're -- that's -- I don't know what I would 15 have done if I would have confronted -- if I would have 16 met into the police. 17 Q: So if you -- if you'd seen police on 18 the beach, you don't know what you would have done as a 19 result of that? Is that what you're telling us? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And when you got to the beach, I 22 gather it was pretty dark by then? 23 A: Yeah, it was. 24 Q: Yeah. You couldn't see very far at 25 all, could you?
511 A: No, I never had a flashlight either. 2 Q: Yeah, so without a flashlight, you 3 couldn't see much at all, could you? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Right, and you then walked in a 6 westerly direction along the beach? 7 A: That is towards Kettle Point? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Yeah, you -- I think Mr. Worme, with 11 great respect, was a little challenged by distances. On 12 the record he suggested you walked east towards Kettle 13 Point, rather than -- 14 MR. DONALD WORME: I won't argue with 15 that. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: -- west and so that -- but the 19 record, I think should be clear that you were walking 20 towards Kettle Point, which is -- we've treated as a 21 westerly direction. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And how far from the point of -- of
521 the Park boundary, that is the western part of the Park 2 boundary which carries down to the beach, towards Kettle 3 Point did you walk along the beach? 4 A: How far did I walk before what? 5 Q: Before you heard -- you say you heard 6 some gun shots? You heard some noise, first of all? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I wasn't that far. I was on the 11 beach, pretty much. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: I -- I was on the beach. 14 Q: You were on the beach -- 15 A: But I'm not sure exactly how far I 16 was. 17 Q: Well then maybe you can help us in 18 time. How many minutes did you walk along? 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: All right, so you don't know how far 21 and you don't know how long you walked along before you 22 heard noise? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: I don't recall.
531 Q: Okay. 2 A: This all happened really, like, fast. 3 Q: Okay, and so -- and then you say you 4 heard noises, yelling, and -- and you said, Like yelling 5 and I don't know. 6 Did you hear sounds like clashing of -- of 7 metal pipes or sticks against police shields? Did you 8 hear that kind of sound? 9 A: I don't know how it sounds when you 10 hit a police shield, so I can't say it was that sound 11 that I heard. 12 Q: Well, did you hear -- I gather what 13 you're saying is that you heard sounds that you weren't 14 familiar with. They were sounds that weren't sounds that 15 are part of your -- 16 A: Part of nature, no, they weren't. 17 Q: Part of nature or part of your usual 18 world -- 19 A: Yeah, they were -- 20 Q: -- because they were unusual sounds 21 were they? 22 A: Yes. Yeah, that's correct. 23 Q: All right. Then you say shortly 24 thereafter you heard some shots, first a few and then 25 many. And Mr. Worme asked you:
541 "Could you tell us, Mr. George, whether 2 the one hundred (100) or two hundred 3 (200) shots ..." 4 Those are the many that you said you heard 5 -- that you heard: 6 "...might have been from an automatic 7 weapon?" 8 Q: Do you know what an automatic 9 weapon is? 10 A: You hold the trigger down and it 11 fires repeatedly. 12 Q: And is that something you might 13 have heard? 14 A: Yeah." 15 Let me ask you, first of all, before 16 September the 6th, had you personally heard the sound of 17 automatic weapons? 18 A: Yes, I have. 19 Q: And in what circumstances had you 20 heard the sound of automatic weapons? When was that? 21 A: A few years ago. 22 Q: A few years prior to -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- '95? And where were you? 25 A: In Kettle Point.
551 Q: And who was firing automatic weapons? 2 A: My cousin. 3 Q: Who's that? 4 A: Gerald George. 5 Q: All right. And where was he firing? 6 A: I don't know, he just purchased a new 7 gun and he was just shooting it off towards a, like a 8 river, like a can or something. 9 Q: I see. Is that -- any other 10 occasions that you heard the sound of automatic weapons? 11 A: I don't know, I can't recall. I just 12 know at that particular time that I can say I remember. 13 Q: And what -- what was the gun that 14 Gerald George had, he was using as an automatic weapon? 15 A: I can't recall the name of it. 16 Q: Now, had you kept walking between the 17 time you heard the yelling and the unusual sounds and the 18 time that you heard the gunshots, had you continued to 19 walk along the beach in a westerly direction? 20 A: After I heard the gunfire? 21 Q: No. After you heard the yelling and 22 before you heard the gunfire, did you continue to walk 23 along the beach in a westerly direction? 24 A: I can't recall what I -- what I done. 25 Q: All right. And then when you heard
561 the gunshots, did you continue to walk or was it that -- 2 is that stage that you say you ran up about a quarter of 3 a kilometre? 4 A: No. I didn't say I'd ran -- 5 Q: Up into a sand hill? 6 A: No, I don't -- I can't remember if I 7 said that I ran a quarter kilometre -- 8 Q: Let me just give you -- 9 A: -- up to a hill, no. 10 Q: This is your evidence yesterday. 11 "Q: After you heard those shots, Mr. 12 George, what did you -- what did you 13 do? 14 A: After I heard those shots I became 15 really scared, terrified, because I was 16 by myself for one and my brothers -- my 17 brothers were in the area where the 18 shots were being fired. So after I 19 heard the shots, the only thing I could 20 do is try and find cover. So I ran in 21 the direction that I was previously 22 dropped off at, towards I believe it's 23 Ravenswood Road. I didn't -- I ran 24 maybe a quarter of a kilometre. Maybe 25 not even that up into a sand -- a sand
571 hill and I lay on top of it -- that 2 hill there." 3 So you told us yesterday when asked what 4 you did, you said you ran in a westerly direction. Maybe 5 a quarter of a kilometre, maybe not that much up into a 6 sand hill. This is what you told us yesterday; do you 7 want to change that? 8 A: Yeah, that's about what I -- I don't 9 know if it was quite a quarter of a kilometre though, 10 that I ran to seek cover. 11 Q: So it was a quarter kilometre or 12 less, but you ran some distance? 13 A: I was about the distance from -- like 14 about a quarter kilometre from the beginning of the beach 15 of the Provincial Park, towards Kettle Point. 16 Q: And then Mr. Worme asked you: 17 "And as you're laying on this sand 18 hill" 19 And he suggests this answer to you: 20 "I take it this is just off the beach?" 21 You say: 22 "Yes." 23 And then you tell us that -- a little 24 further on -- that you heard voices on East Parkway, 25 persons on East Parkway?
581 A: I thought I said they were in between 2 there from the beach and East Parkway. 3 Q: Okay, well, let me just -- maybe I 4 have it wrong from your evidence and let's get it 5 straight. You were asked the question: 6 "Did you -- did you hear any further 7 sounds coming from the area that you 8 described as the -- as a lot of noise 9 and then the shooting?" 10 A: Well, in between from where I was 11 at -- was at and the road, East Parkway 12 or whatever that road is, I heard -- I 13 heard some cops." 14 So I take it you're saying they were 15 between the road -- you and East Parkway Road, were they? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: They weren't on the road? 18 A: They weren't on the road. 19 Q: All right. And how far were you from 20 the road or did you know? 21 A: I was at the -- pretty much the 22 beginning of the beach on the top of a hill. 23 Q: All right. And so somewhere south of 24 you, which was East Parkway, the police officers were 25 between you and East Parkway?
591 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And you say you didn't see them, that 3 they were police officers, you simply heard them speaking 4 and you assumed they were police officers? 5 A: Well, what they -- the wording that 6 they used I knew they weren't -- I knew that they were 7 police. 8 Q: And what wording was that? 9 A: They said, Well, we should go along 10 the beach to see if there's anyone down there. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: I think one (1) particular officer 13 said that. 14 Q: One (1) of the persons said that? 15 A: Yeah, one (1) of the -- one (1) of 16 the people -- 17 Q: And you assumed because they said, We 18 should go down to the beach and see if there's anyone 19 there, you assumed they were police officers? 20 A: I assumed because they said, We 21 should check if there's anyone along there. 22 Q: Right. Anything else that they said 23 that led you to assume they were police officers? 24 A: I can't really recall exactly what 25 they said.
601 Q: All right. Nothing you can recall 2 that they said that led you to assume they were police 3 officers? 4 A: Well, I know they said something that 5 made me believe that they were police officers, but I 6 can't recall exactly what they said. 7 Q: All right. Then -- and you then told 8 Mr. Worme that you were there for about half an hour, 9 maybe longer -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- lying on the sand dune. 12 A: It might have been shorter. 13 Q: I see. So, it was half an hour you 14 told Mr. Worme, maybe longer. Now you're telling me 15 maybe shorter? 16 A: It could have been shorter. 17 Q: Okay. So, is half an hour your best 18 estimate? 19 A: I'm not exact -- I'm not, like 100 20 percent sure on how long I was there. It was so long 21 that I've been trying to -- for the longest time, get all 22 of this stuff out of my head and try and move on from it, 23 so I can't remember details. 24 Q: All right. And then you -- and you 25 say you wanted to get to a safe place, you didn't feel
611 safe because you were by yourself and you said to Mr. 2 Worme: 3 "I didn't -- I didn't feel safe because 4 I was by myself. I didn't have any 5 weapons on me. I didn't have nothing." 6 I'm not sure what you were trying to tell 7 us there, Mr. George. Were you trying to tell us that 8 you would have felt safe if you had weapons? 9 A: If I had something. I just heard the 10 whole of gunfire go off and wouldn't you want to protect 11 yourself in some sort? 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Mr. George, you then told us that you 17 went along the beach and you met with Roseanne Bressette 18 and Deanna Bressette and they were there along the beach 19 and I gather they were -- there was also Tom Bressette 20 and Gerald George, right? You came upon the four (4) of 21 them? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And at that stage I gather Roseanne 24 Bressette had your brother's, Cecil Bernard's, blue pick- 25 up truck?
621 A: Yes, she had the blue pick-up truck, 2 yeah. 3 Q: And you tell us that there was a 4 scanner in the truck? 5 A: Yeah, he's -- 6 Q: And is -- 7 A: -- always had a scanner in his truck. 8 Q: And is that -- was that a scanner 9 that was fixed in the truck, that was a permanent feature 10 of the truck? 11 A: It's always been in his truck, yeah. 12 Q: I see. But is it -- my question was: 13 Was it fixed or was it portable? 14 A: I don't know the difference so. 15 Q: Could you take it out of the truck? 16 A: You mean like a handset one? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: No, it wasn't one of those, it was -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- a square box kind. 21 Q: And did you know that -- that then, I 22 gather Cecil Bernard George had more than one (1) 23 scanner, if he had one fixed in his truck. We've also 24 heard that he had a scanner, a portable one that he had 25 taken to the Park.
631 Did you -- were you aware that he appears 2 to have had more than one (1) scanner? 3 A: He's always had a lot of -- well, not 4 -- I don't know -- I don't know how many he has exactly, 5 but I -- I know he didn't just go purchase them that day, 6 he's always had walkie-talkies and -- 7 Q: And more than one (1) scanner? 8 A: I don't know. But I know he's always 9 had that kind of equipment. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: I'm not sure exactly on everything 12 that he has. 13 Q: Now, you told Mr. Worme yesterday 14 that, I gather you didn't hear it over the scanner, but 15 that you -- you understood that Roseanne and Deanna 16 heard, over the scanner in Cecil Bernard's truck, that 17 three (3) people were shot and several wounded; that's 18 what they told you? 19 A: I don't really -- I don't really 20 remember what -- that's -- that's what I believe I heard 21 at some point. 22 Q: So you're not sure where you heard 23 that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay, because we have an SIU Will Say
641 from Deanna Bressette, about that -- about the occasion 2 that you met them at the -- at the beach as you've 3 described it, and there's nothing in her Will Say that 4 speaks to having heard over a scanner that three (3) 5 people were shot and several wounded. 6 A: Well, I don't really remember exactly 7 when I heard it. 8 Q: But you may -- 9 A: I just remember -- 10 Q: You may have heard it on a complete 11 different occasion? 12 A: I could have, yes. Yeah. 13 Q: And, as I understand your evidence, 14 you got in the back of the blue truck and Roseanne and 15 Deanna got into the -- Deanna got into the driver's and 16 passenger seat and you proceeded, I think it was, up 17 Ipperwash Road, away from the beach. 18 A: Yeah, that's correct. 19 Q: Now, let me just tell you that, in 20 the Will Say or the -- certainly not the Will Say, the 21 SIU statement given by Deanna Bressette, that will no 22 doubt be referred to later, when she comes to testify, 23 that she says that you proceeded up Ravenswood Road, 24 where there was a barricade, We circled around Thedford 25 Highway. Do you remember doing that?
651 A: To my recollection, no I don't recall 2 doing that. 3 Q: And then she says: 4 "We went up to Highway 21 and the 5 police had a roadblock, so we went 6 straight towards Thedford, we circled 7 around and we came down Army Camp Road 8 to get down here to get to the main 9 gate". 10 Now, she says that you and -- you and she 11 and Roseanne, went in the truck to the main gate of the 12 Army Camp. And she says: 13 "Terry George was at the gate and Gina 14 George and they told us the police took 15 Bernard to Forest." 16 Does that refresh your memory that you 17 went first to the Army Camp gate? 18 A: That's her statement, I don't -- I 19 don't recall. 20 Q: You don't recall that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Well, you were in the truck. Is it - 23 - are you saying that it didn't happen or that you just 24 may not recall? 25 A: I'm just saying to my recollection
661 that, like I'd -- I'd said previous, I was trying to -- 2 Q: I'm sorry? 3 A: I said, to my recollection previously 4 I stated that I don't remember exactly all -- all things 5 that happened that -- that day, that -- at that time, 6 because I've been trying to forget all of this. 7 Q: So that could have happened, you just 8 don't recall? Is that what you're telling us? 9 A: It could have happened, I just don't 10 recall. 11 Q: And she goes on to say that -- that 12 "they didn't tell us", this is referring to Gina George 13 and Terry George, 14 "They didn't tell us that Bernard was 15 hurt or that he was beaten. They -- 16 well, they warned us not to go down to 17 the Park because we were going to the 18 Park, you know, for Bernard. They told 19 us not to go down there. So this is 20 when we went to the police station out 21 in Forest and we had Jeremiah with us, 22 he came along with us." 23 Now do you remember, then, going along 24 Highway 21 to the Forest Police station? 25 A: I read her statement before I came
671 here and if I remembered -- remembered that, I would have 2 said that when I was here. I don't recall that. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Why -- why would I read something and 5 then don't remember it and come to Court and lie? I 6 don't recall. 7 Q: And that -- and having read it -- the 8 statement, it didn't refresh your memory at all? 9 A: No, I don't remember. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I swore on the Bible saying I'd tell 12 the whole truth and nothing but the truth and that's what 13 I can recall, so that's what I'm going to state. 14 Q: All right, and I gather it makes 15 sense, does it, when you think back though, Mr. George, 16 to go to the police station if you don't know that Cecil 17 Bernard has been shot or hurt, because if you'd -- if 18 he'd been seriously injured or -- or shot, it's likely he 19 wouldn't be at the police station, he'd be at a hospital; 20 isn't that right? 21 A: To find out what's going on, you 22 usually want somebody that would know and you go where 23 you can get some sort of answers. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Why would we drive all the way to a
681 hospital when he could be in jail? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now you told us that you were hiding 6 in the back of the truck at some stage. You think it was 7 when you were going through a barricade. 8 A: I know it was when I was going 9 through a barricade when I was laying on my side. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: I know exactly where I was. 12 Q: And were you also hiding in the back 13 of the truck when you got to the -- or when you 14 approached the Forest OPP station? 15 A: If I was hiding in the back at that 16 time, I wouldn't have seen the vans circle around. No, I 17 wasn't hiding, I was sitting up. 18 Q: Having seen the van, did you then 19 hide? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Before we get further on that, are 25 you sure that you went through a police barricade,
691 because Deanna Bressette gave a statement to the SIU much 2 closer to the events than today, and she has -- she makes 3 no reference to going through a police barricade in the 4 truck in which you were in. 5 So are you sure of that or could you be 6 mistaken on that as well? 7 A: What, that I went through a 8 barricade? The statement I made, that's what I'm saying. 9 I went through a barricade. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: That's her statement, this is what I 12 remembered. 13 Q: Now, we understand that there may be 14 police evidence, certainly that's -- we've been produced 15 a document to this effect that you were observed at the 16 police station in the truck jumping up from hiding in the 17 box of the vehicle by a police officer; this was 18 Constable Finch. 19 And he says he was not aware that you'd 20 been hiding in the back of the box of the truck and he 21 found your actions startling, not only for himself but 22 for the other officers present, now -- 23 A: Oh, if that justicates what they did 24 then that's his statement, but I wasn't hiding in the 25 back of no pick up truck. If I was hiding and they had
701 their guns drawn, they would have shot me. 2 Q: Well, what he says was -- 3 A: I wasn't going to be popping out and 4 jumping -- jumping out at anybody that was, like, already 5 trigger finger happy, so why would I do that? 6 Q: Well, what the statement says is that 7 you were initially at the police station hiding and then 8 you jumped up. 9 A: Well, that's his statement, I guess; 10 that's not what I -- that's not what I stated. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I wasn't hiding. 13 Q: Were you lying down in the back of 14 it? 15 A: No, I wasn't -- I wasn't hiding. 16 Q: All right. And we have a -- from 17 Constable Fitzgerald, who was there as well, that when 18 the truck approached the detachment from Highway 21 that 19 it stopped abruptly on the grass shoulder of the roadway 20 adjacent to the Forest Detachment. 21 Do you recall that the -- the blue truck 22 you were in stopped abruptly, not in the parking lot, but 23 on the grass shoulder? 24 A: So what you're indicating is that she 25 was driving kind of erratically?
711 Q: Well, I didn't -- didn't say, 2 erratically I said it stopped abruptly -- 3 A: Stopped -- 4 Q: on the grass shoulder. 5 A: I -- she wouldn't be driving, like, 6 or stopping kind of unusually with me sitting in the back 7 not having any sort of seatbelt on or anything. 8 Q: And did it -- 9 A: And I -- 10 Q: Did it stop on the grass shoulder? 11 A: I don't remember exactly where it 12 stopped. 13 Q: Okay. Now, we were also told by the 14 same statement of Constable Fitzgerald that the whole 15 incident from the time that the truck first arrived at 16 the station until the time you were released took a total 17 of fifteen (15) minutes; is that a fair estimate? 18 A: I think we were there longer than 19 that. 20 Q: And how long do you say you were 21 there? 22 A: Under a half hour. 23 Q: All right. So between fifteen (15) 24 minutes and a half hour? Okay. Sorry, you have to -- 25 you have to say for the record, yes or no. I think if
721 you could just say "yes." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, you told us, as well, that you 4 went back the next day, September the 7th to the 5 barracks, marched back and then you went -- hitched a 6 ride in a truck down to the Park. 7 And you looked around the area of the 8 sandy parking lot where it meets the intersection of Army 9 Camp Road and East Parkway for shell casings? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you were there with your brother 12 and with a number of other people looking for shell 13 casings and none of you appeared to have found anything? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: What time of day was this? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Well, was it -- was it before or 18 after lunch, do you recall? 19 A: I -- before lunch I think. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Could have been one o'clock. I don't 22 remember eating so I can couldn't give you a time. 23 Q: And there were a lot of people 24 around? 25 A: The only thing that I remember is
731 just viewing the videos and I don't -- it's all kind of a 2 -- still a haze. I'd rather forget it, I don't know. 3 Q: So you -- sorry, which videos are you 4 talking about? 5 A: Pardon? 6 Q: You say, viewing the videos, what 7 videos? 8 A: The -- the media clips. 9 Q: And you viewed those video clips 10 before you came to testify here today? 11 A: I -- I just remember seeing them. 12 Q: When did you see them? 13 A: I don't recall, really. 14 Q: Well, did you see -- have you seen 15 them in the last few weeks or months or are you talking 16 about back in 1995 or when -- what are you talking about? 17 A: The last few months, I guess. 18 Q: Okay. And so you -- you were shown 19 the video clips to what; to assist you to refresh your 20 memory? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And did they help you 23 refresh your memory? 24 A: Not really, no. 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall when you
741 were down there at the intersection of East Parkway Drive 2 and Army Camp Road on September the 7th, seeing sticks 3 and stones and other kind of articles around the sandy 4 parking area and the intersection of the two (2) roads? 5 A: I don't remember any of that. 6 Q: You don't -- so if -- and would -- is 7 that something you would have remembered if you'd seen 8 it? 9 A: I don't -- I don't remember. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: That's -- I wasn't there looking for 12 sticks and sticks and stones, wasn't making a fire. 13 Q: Well, let's -- let me ask you about 14 that, because we've heard evidence about a fire on the 15 roadway just slightly west of the intersection of East 16 Parkway Drive on the north side, which was built at about 17 that time, to mark the place where it was thought Dudley 18 George had been shot. 19 Do you remember that fire? 20 A: No, I don't, because I -- as I just 21 stated, I don't -- I wasn't making a fire. I wasn't 22 looking for sticks and stones. I stated I was looking 23 for shells, casings. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
751 Q: Thank you, Mr. George, those are my 2 questions. 3 A: Have a good day. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. Mr. Hourigan...? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm wondering if 7 perhaps it might be a good opportunity -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 9 not sure if -- 10 MR. DONALD WORME: -- for the morning 11 break? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is Mr. 13 Hourigan the last cross-examiner? Then let's see if we 14 can -- 15 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: I will be five (5) 16 minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 18 minutes. Let's do it. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: 21 Q: Mr. George, I represent Mike Harris 22 and I had a couple of points from your testimony 23 yesterday that I wanted to review with you and get some 24 clarification. 25 On two (2) occasions, you made reference
761 to conflict within the native community; do you recall 2 that? 3 A: Yeah, there was conflict. 4 Q: And in particular, you testified the 5 conflict was of such a nature that it prevented the 6 chief, Chief Bressette, from going to the Park on 7 September 6th; correct? 8 A: I -- I think he could -- he wished he 9 could have -- 10 Q: He wished he could have? 11 A: Yeah, and involved -- 12 Q: But he couldn't? 13 A: -- himself in some sort of -- some 14 sort of manner that it didn't escalate to the point that 15 it did. 16 Q: Right, and what I'm trying to get 17 clarification on, Mr. George, is the nature of the 18 conflict, who it's between, for example? 19 A: The nature of the conflict? I'm not 20 like -- like who? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I can't point fingers. I don't know 23 who was -- 24 Q: Did you understand -- 25 A: I just know that there was a conflict
771 between Kettle Point and Stony Point. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And there always has. 4 Q: And what did you understand the 5 nature of that conflict to be? 6 A: I'm not sure. 7 Q: Well, did you understand that it 8 related to the taking back or the occupation of the 9 barracks at the Army Camp; was that a source of conflict? 10 A: Yeah, it was a conflict. I believe 11 it was. 12 Q: And did it also similarly relate to 13 the taking of the Ipperwash Provincial Park -- 14 A: Yeah -- 15 Q: -- was that a source of conflict? 16 A: -- that was, as well. 17 Q: And you understood, sir, that Chief 18 Bressette did not support the occupation of the barracks; 19 correct? 20 A: I'm not exactly sure on his -- on his 21 standings of it. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: I'm sure he felt that if he wasn't a 24 chief and, or, you know, councillor and his -- his 25 standings in this certain circumstances, I'm sure he
781 would have supported in some -- some manner. 2 Q: But you don't know? 3 A: I'm not -- no, I'm not particularly 4 sure. I can't make a statement. I don't know his 5 political views on exactly how he stands. I can't make 6 any sort of statement like that. 7 Q: I see. Do you -- and was it your 8 understanding that Chief Bressette supported the 9 occupation of the Park? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: You don't know? But he certainly 12 wasn't entitled to go to the Park, was he? 13 A: Oh, he -- he's in -- in his 14 standings, he wasn't -- he -- he couldn't, basically. 15 Q: Why couldn't he? 16 A: I guess he could have, but if he went 17 there he would have been support just, like, supporting 18 them, saying that it was -- that they were allowed -- I 19 guess, allowed to be there. 20 Q: Right, and he didn't want to do that? 21 A: I don't think he could, being a 22 chief, unless he's, like, I don't know. 23 Q: So I take from that, sir, you correct 24 me if I'm wrong, that he didn't support the occupation of 25 the Camp? He couldn't be seen to be there and seen to be
791 supportive; is that true? 2 A: That he couldn't be supportive? 3 Q: Right. 4 A: Being a chief, yeah, like -- 5 Q: So, I take from that, that he didn't 6 support the occupation of the Park; is that fair? 7 A: It's -- I don't know if I can say 8 that that's fair. I don't -- I don't know if that's a 9 fair statement. 10 Q: Yesterday you also testified with 11 respect to the time period when you came back to the 12 turnstile to warn people about the -- the native 13 occupiers there with respect to the police presence. 14 Do you recall that? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you'll recall as well that you 17 indicated that there was, quote: 18 "A lot of new faces." 19 Do you recall giving that testimony? 20 A: I don't know if I -- if there was at 21 that time or if it was later on that day. 22 Q: Well, let's -- 23 A: I seen a lot of new faces that, like, 24 well, the following day, so -- 25 Q: I'm just going to take you back to
801 your testimony. The question Mr. Worme asked you was -- 2 it's at the bottom of page 134: 3 "And so you run back to the front area. 4 I take it that's the turnstile area you 5 told us about earlier? 6 Yes. 7 And do you recall who it was that you 8 would have spoken to in order to give 9 the information the Cecil or Bernard 10 asked you relay?" 11 Your answer was: 12 "I -- I don't recall that it was -- 13 that I -- I met with down there because 14 there was a lot of new, like, new faces 15 that I hadn't seen or that I -- I don't 16 even know." 17 Do you recall giving that testimony? 18 A: Yeah, there was people from Stoney 19 Point that I didn't know, so -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- that were there at that particular 22 time, so, yeah, there was new faces down there, but they 23 didn't just come down there that -- that particular time, 24 like occupy the Camp. They were -- I mean the Park -- 25 they were at the Camp previous to that, like a lot of new
811 faces that I had -- I never seen. They didn't just come 2 there that day so, yeah, there was -- 3 Q: And when was the first -- 4 A: -- new faces there. 5 Q: Sorry, when was the first time you 6 visited the Camp after it had been occupied? 7 A: The barracks? 8 Q: No, the Camp. Or, sorry, I 9 apologize, the Park? 10 A: When was the first time? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I think it was that day. 13 Q: That day? And the individuals you 14 saw, I take it they were native supporters? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And they weren't from Stoney Point? 17 A: Well, they were from -- there was 18 Stoney Point and -- Stoney Point people there, Kettle 19 Point people and there was people from other reserves. 20 Q: I see, and did you recognize those 21 people who were from Kettle Point? 22 A: A few, I remember a few that, like, 23 that I know have always been down there. 24 Q: Right and do you recognize those 25 people --
821 A: But particularly that day when that - 2 - that instant, I don't -- I don't remember who they 3 were. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: It's not that I don't -- maybe I 6 don't know, or I know them, but I just can't remember. 7 Q: I see. I see. Now, did you 8 recognize those individuals who were there from Stoney 9 Point? 10 A: I don't remember who, like, who I saw 11 that -- that particular time. 12 Q: All right. And did you recognize any 13 of the other individuals who were there who were not from 14 either Stoney Point or Kettle Point? 15 A: Those are the people I didn't know, 16 yeah. 17 Q: Those were the people you didn't 18 know? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. And how many of those 21 people were there? 22 A: I don't -- I don't remember. I don't 23 remember how many people were down there that day. 24 Q: Well, you've testified about twenty- 25 five (25).
831 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And then you've also testified that a 3 lot of people were there and what I take from your 4 evidence a lot of people were there who were not from 5 Stoney or Kettle Point and I'm trying to get an idea of 6 the numbers -- these were the new faces you saw. 7 Can you tell me? 8 A: No, I can't. 9 Q: Do you have an estimate? 10 A: There was Kettle Point, Stoney Point 11 and a few other people. I don't know. I can't give you 12 any numbers. I don't know, it was dark that night. I 13 don't know who was down there that day. 14 Q: You've certainly -- you've certainly 15 been able to recognize that there were new faces there? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. And you can't tell me 18 today then, sir, is that your evidence, how many new 19 faces you saw, is that fair? 20 A: That's fair. 21 Q: Okay. Those are my questions. 22 Thanks. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. Mr. Worme, any re-examination? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Just very briefly, Mr.
841 Commissioner. 2 3 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: In re-examination, just two (2) 5 items, Mr. George, if I may. You were asked -- you were 6 asked by the -- the lawyer for the Ontario Provincial 7 Police Association as -- as to whether you were aware, 8 that in August of '95, whether your brother Cecil had 9 went to the Camp in order to warn Les Jewel that -- that 10 he ought to vacate, together with his warriors. 11 First of all, do you know who Les Jewel 12 is? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: All right. And were you aware or 15 ever made aware that there were anybody connected to, I'm 16 assuming it was the Stoney Point or the Camp Ipperwash 17 Base, that would have been associated with warriors? 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: Secondly, then, I just want to give 20 you an opportunity, Mr. George. Mr. Hourigan, who had 21 just finished asking you questions, had asked you to 22 comment on your views with respect to Tom Bressette. 23 And I seem to gather from your answer that 24 you were drawing a distinction as between Tom Bressette, 25 civilian, and Tom Bressette as a chief.
851 Did I understand you correctly? 2 A: Yes. That's correct. 3 Q: And is it your evidence that Tom 4 Bressette, as a civilian, and I don't want to put words 5 in your mouth, but did you say, probably would have 6 supported? 7 A: Yes, that's correct. 8 Q: And is it also your evidence, then, 9 that he was inhibited, at least in your view, and 10 certainly we will be asking him these questions, 11 inhibited by his position as chief from openly supporting 12 the occupation of the Park; is that what I understand you 13 to say, sir? 14 A: Being native and having some sort of 15 a -- I'm sure, some sort of family that lived in Stoney 16 Point and at a certain time he probably felt that it was 17 time to finally get the land back, yeah. 18 You know as a -- being a descendant in 19 some manner, yeah, he, you know, he was probably glad 20 something was finally happening. 21 And for the reserve itself, you know, 22 there's no room for growth, you know, nobody can't build 23 a house down there. I got land there, I can't build a 24 house there. There's, you know, just -- yeah, I believe 25 that he would, in some way, wish he, like -- like, could
861 have been there that night, helped out in some -- some 2 kind of way. 3 Q: All right. Thank you. Thank you for 4 that, Mr. George. 5 And on behalf of the Commission, I want to 6 thank you for attending here. I know you had been ill 7 and I know you had some trouble getting here and getting 8 off of work, so we're very much appreciative of your 9 being here. 10 A: Well, thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much for coming and giving us your evidence. Thank 13 you very kindly. You're finished now. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 16 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 19 would be a good time for us to take a break. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:55 a.m. 25
871 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, the 4 next witness called is Charles George. I can advise that 5 Mr. George, with the assistance of Mr. George, was just 6 in the back, and they have smudged themselves, and he 7 would, at this point in time, then, be affirmed. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. George. 10 MR. CHARLES GEORGE: Yes. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Please state your name in 12 full for the record. 13 MR. CHARLES GEORGE: Charles Francis 14 George. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 16 17 CHARLES FRANCIS GEORGE, Affirmed: 18 19 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: Mr. George, you're born April the 4th 21 of 1969? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that would make you how old 24 today? 25 A: Thirty-five (35).
881 Q: Thirty-five (35) years? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Your parents are Sandra George and 4 Randall George; correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And they are not a George family that 7 is otherwise connected to the Kettle or Stoney Point? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: All right. And I understand that 10 your parents currently are resident in Oneida in New 11 York? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You are -- you are married in the 14 sense that you have a common-law spouse? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And four (4) children? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: You sometimes go by the name, Chuck, 19 or do you prefer the -- 20 A: Chuck, yeah. 21 Q: -- you prefer the nickname Chuck? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. Or the name, rather. And 24 you are currently a resident of the Oneida settlement and 25 you have been since 1974, Mr. George?
891 A: Yes, around there, yeah. 2 Q: Okay, give or take -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And when I say the 5 "Oneida Settlement," I mean the one that is located near 6 the out -- near the outskirts of London, Ontario, as 7 opposed to the New York -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- Oneida. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yeah. Your parents -- parents as 12 well were from Oneida in Ontario and it is the same 13 community where you presently reside? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You've also advised, Mr. George, that 16 you had been involved in a fairly serious car accident in 17 approximately 1997/98. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I understand that in -- as a 20 consequence of that accident, you had sustained a fairly 21 serious head injury? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I note that you do have, and I 24 don't mean to embarrass you, but I note that you do have 25 some scarring as a result of that accident.
901 A: Yes. 2 Q: And can you tell us, sir, what 3 effect, if any, that that has had on your either short 4 term or long term memory? 5 A: I can't remember, like, short term. 6 But longer -- farther away I can remember better. 7 Q: And so the events that you were here 8 to tell us about in 1995 and there before, those things 9 you can tell us about, but you may have some difficulty 10 with respect to things that might have happened three (3) 11 months ago; is that fair? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Mr. George, I had given 14 you an opportunity to review certain documents. You have 15 that document in front of you and, Mr. Commissioner, it 16 is at Tab -- the first document that I would refer him to 17 is at Tab 3 in the binder. 18 For the benefit of Counsel, it is Inquiry 19 Document 1005292 which is a transcript of the R. and 20 Deane trial. 21 That particular evidence that I will refer 22 you to, Mr. George, is your evidence dating from April 23 the 3rd of 1997 and in particular, I would refer you to 24 Pages 125 and 126. You were asked a series of questions 25 at that time by the lawyer who was examining you with
911 respect to your criminal record. 2 And if I may, sir, I'd like to just 3 briefly take you through that and ask you if you can 4 confirm, Number 1, that that is your testimony and, 5 secondly, that that is your record as it stood then and 6 as it stands now. 7 So, firstly, in 1989, sir, you had a 8 conviction for theft under a thousand dollars ($1,000) 9 which you received a fourteen (14) day jail sentence; 10 correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you were similarly convicted for 13 possession of a narcotic, and I understand that you were 14 sentenced to an additional five (5) days in jail for 15 that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Further, you were convicted for theft 18 over a thousand dollars ($1,000) and possession of stolen 19 property under a thousand dollars ($1,000) for which you 20 had received a three (3) month jail sentence, all of this 21 in 1999 -- '89, pardon me. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, sir, in 1995, you were convicted 24 for possession of property obtained by crime for which 25 you had received a four (4) month jail term?
921 A: Yes. 2 Q: And a fail to appear charge, 3 presumably arising out of those other charges, for which 4 you received a fifteen (15) day consecutive sentence? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And fifteen (15) days concurrent to 7 that for a theft under five thousand dollars ($5,000)? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And possession of break-in 10 instruments, an additional forty-five (45) days? I would 11 assume that that would have been consecutive? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And attempted theft under and failed 14 to appear, for which you received thirty (30) days 15 consecutive? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And lastly, possession of a 18 restricted drug for which you received a fifteen (15) day 19 sentence? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And I trust, Mr. George, as of the 22 6th of September, 1995, that constitutes your record? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Thank you. Mr. George, if I could 25 take you back then, to your earliest or earlier
931 recollections with respect to the Stoney Point lands and 2 perhaps we might put up on the screen the -- 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And, Mr. George, I can tell you that 7 this map up on the screen, firstly do you recognize that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it has been marked in these 10 proceedings as P-40 and you'll agree with me that that is 11 a diagram of the Ipperwash Military Reserve? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Otherwise known as the Stoney Point 14 traditional lands? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And -- and how is it that -- 17 that you would have first became familiar with respect to 18 what is depicted in that map? 19 A: Pardon? 20 Q: How did you first become familiar 21 with that area, with that land -- land Army? 22 A: Well, my -- my uncle told us about 23 it, that they had it stolen from them years ago. 24 Q: Okay. And your uncle -- 25 A: Larry Chris John (phonetic) told me.
941 Q: Larry Chris John? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I take it he would be from Oneida as 4 well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And he had told you and it -- again 7 that it had been -- 8 A: It was stolen from the -- the People. 9 Q: All right. And beyond that, what -- 10 what did you know about the land? 11 A: Just -- that's all. This is what the 12 -- the people from there told me. 13 Q: And I take it at some point in time, 14 because you spoke to the people from there that you had 15 occasion to go there. 16 Can you tell us when the earliest or the 17 first time you might have attended there, if you can 18 recall for us? 19 A: I don't know what day it was, but I 20 know I went there and went fishing with Dudley a few 21 times. 22 Q: Okay. And in terms of a year, could 23 you estimate when that might have been? 24 A: '95, '94, something like that. 25 Q: Okay. And we know about the incident
951 of September of 1995 and we'll get to that eventually. 2 Can you tell us how long prior to that, 3 that you might have attended there to go fishing with 4 Dudley? 5 A: About a year, maybe a little bit 6 more. 7 Q: Okay, so perhaps the summer of '94? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Is that your -- your best 10 recollection? 11 A: Yeah. I can't remember exactly what 12 year it was, but maybe '94, '93. I used to go visit him 13 in his trailer. 14 Q: Fair enough. They were -- he was 15 already living in the trailer on the -- on the range, was 16 he? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And would you just take the laser 19 pointer there in front of you, Mr. George, and if you 20 could indicate on that map, if you are able, where you 21 would visit Dudley George at his trailer? 22 A: I think it was around in here some 23 place. I'm not quite sure, it's around here some place. 24 Q: Okay, and for the record, you are 25 indicating just -- just to the -- just to the west of the
961 -- is that the tank range? 2 A: This is grenade range down here. 3 Q: Grenade range, thank you, Mr. George. 4 A: Yeah, it was around -- around here 5 some place, his trailer was. I'm not exactly sure where. 6 Q: All right. And during that initial 7 visit, first of all, can you tell us any more about that 8 visit, how long were you there? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 10 you continue, Mr. -- 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, I'm -- 12 I'm sorry to interrupt My Friend, but I think it would be 13 assistance to all of us in these proceedings if Mr. Worme 14 followed the course they've done with other Witnesses; is 15 providing a blank map so that the Witness can mark on it. 16 And we can have a better record in -- of 17 where it is that he's indicating because with this -- 18 with this oral record it's very hard in the transcripts 19 to figure out where the Witness is indicating without 20 having it as a -- as a concrete visual record. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: I think that's 22 excellent advice, Mr. Roland, thank you for that. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: Mr. George, you will have in front of
971 you a hard copy diagram of the map on the screen. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if I could ask you if you would 4 just take the red pen in front of you. And if you would 5 start by simply indicating, perhaps, with a Number 1 and 6 mark on that map if you would, please, the location 7 you've identified on the map on the screen as to where it 8 was that you would -- you visited, rather, Dudley George 9 in his trailer. 10 A: (INDICATING) 11 Q: You've done so? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Perhaps, Mr. Commissioner, I could 14 ask if that would be marked as an exhibit, please, I 15 think we're at one five (15) -- 16 A: I think that -- 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-161. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: 161. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-161: Document 1002409, Page 13, 21 Map of Ipperwash Military 22 Reserve marked by Witness 23 Charles George, February 24 08/05 25
981 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will there 2 be other marks on this map? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: There may well be 4 other marks on this map. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then you 6 want him to put a number on it. He's put a mark on it, 7 but not a number. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Okay. Perhaps if I haven't already 11 asked you to do so, Mr. George, could you put a Number 1 12 there, please? 13 A: I already did. 14 Q: Yes, thank you. 15 A: It's approximately, I'm not exactly 16 where it was. 17 Q: I understand that and thanks for that 18 clarification. I believe I had asked you if -- if you 19 could tell us how long it was, on that first occasion, 20 when you visited Dudley at the location you've now marked 21 for us, on 161, how long you might have visited Dudley 22 and -- 23 A: I don't know, we got -- got there 24 around 12:00 and didn't leave til dark. I don't know, 25 about five (5), six (6) hours.
991 Q: All right. Had you ever had occasion 2 to stay over, whether at his camp or at anybody else's? 3 A: No. No, I went home right away. 4 Q: I'm sorry. 5 A: No, I never. 6 Q: All right. And you -- you had 7 indicated that you had went there to go fishing. Did you 8 in fact go fishing? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Perhaps while I'm asking 11 you about those kinds of activities, had you ever had 12 occasion to go hunting, -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- at the Stoney Point lands? 15 A: No, I never. 16 Q: During that initial visit with 17 Dudley, I gather in the five (5) or six (6) hours that 18 you were there, that you might have had an opportunity to 19 see around in the inside of his trailer? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you would have talked with him 22 about his activities there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you recall, sir, whether 25 there was any -- now, first of all whether there was any
1001 discussion about firearms or those weapons of that 2 nature? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: And did you see any weapons, and in 5 particular, firearms, in the trailer of Dudley George? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you visit anybody else in that 8 period of time, Mr. George, that you can tell us about 9 today? 10 A: No, just -- Dudley and -- whoever was 11 -- there was more than one (1) person there. 12 Q: Do you recall who else might have 13 been there? 14 A: No, I can't remember who it was, but 15 there was about five (5) or six (6) people that was 16 there. 17 Q: During that visit, when you had 18 spent, as you have indicated, five (5) or six (6) hours 19 there, did you see any Military personnel around? 20 A: Yes, driving around in their trucks. 21 Q: And was there any interaction as 22 between them and the five (5) or six (6) people that were 23 also at Dudley's trailer? 24 A: No, we -- no. 25 Q: Okay. Was there any discussion about
1011 the Military people driving around in their trucks. 2 A: Yes. But I can't remember exactly 3 what we were talking about. 4 Q: We are told, Mr. George, and the 5 evidence has been in this -- in this Commission of 6 Inquiry, that in July of 1995, people that were on the 7 range moved into the barracks area. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And as I understand it, you had an 10 opportunity to go to the barracks area at some point. 11 A: But I don't think it was until after 12 September I was inside the barracks. 13 Q: And we're talking September of '95, - 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- obviously. All right. So I take 16 it that between this first visit in 1993 that you've told 17 us about, with Dudley George at his trailer, there were 18 five (5) or so other people there. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you have other opportunity to 21 attend at those lands? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And can you tell us about that? 24 A: Well, I just went there to go 25 fishing. Every time you go there, it's to go fishing, go
1021 visit, talk. 2 Q: You would be visiting with -- with 3 anybody else besides Dudley; can you recall? 4 A: I don't -- I can't remember their 5 names. But I know there -- there was more than -- 6 everybody would just stop by every once in a while, just 7 sit there and visit and leave. I can't remember 8 everybody's name. 9 Q: And aside from fishing, and I -- 10 you'll forgive me if I haven't, or if I've asked you this 11 already, did you have any opportunity to go hunting 12 there? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Again, with respect to those lands? 15 A: No, I never. 16 Q: All right. During any of the time 17 that you were there, -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- did you observe any firearms in 20 the hands of any of the occupiers or in the residences of 21 any of the people that were in occupation of those lands? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you have any discussions about 24 firearms with any of those people in occupation of those 25 lands?
1031 A: Not as far as I know. 2 Q: Did you, sir, transport or deliver 3 any kind of firearms to those lands? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: All right. And I take it that you 6 would have been fishing, not only in Lake Huron, but 7 perhaps in the inland lakes; is that right? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And I understand that you had an 13 opportunity to visit with one Glenn George, you know who 14 that is? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You had a chance to visit at his 17 residence at the barracks? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Can you tell us anything beyond that 20 you visited him, about what happened on that -- at that 21 time? 22 A: Not really, just sat there and 23 talked, visited. 24 Q: And can you recall what the 25 discussion might have been about?
1041 A: Mostly about the land. 2 Q: Okay. And can you assist us any in 3 terms of what that discussion about the land was? 4 A: He was just telling us about when it 5 was taken away and how they -- they took it back. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I can't remember too much else. 8 Q: That it was taken away from them -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- and that they had taken it back? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. During any of this time, 13 either in visiting with -- with Dudley George at his 14 trailer or anywhere for that matter, or with Glenn George 15 at his -- at his residence at the barracks, do you recall 16 any discussions about what their next intentions might 17 be? 18 A: I can't recall. 19 Q: And I appreciate this is -- this is 20 difficult to recall, not only with the passage of time, 21 but the other factors you've -- you've indicated -- 22 A: It's been ten (10) years since it 23 happened, so it's hard to... 24 Q: And I appreciate that -- that it's 25 difficult to recall, sir. But can you recall whether
1051 there was any discussions, for example, about moving to 2 the Provincial Park and about taking over that area? 3 A: I don't know. It -- no, I don't 4 remember any discussions about that. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you did hear at -- at some point 9 after September the 4th of 1994 -- 5, pardon me, that 10 there was an occupation of the Provincial Park? 11 A: I didn't know til I got there. 12 Q: Well, perhaps maybe what I can do, 13 Mr. George, if you could just tell us how it is that you, 14 first of all, got there; who it was you -- you travelled 15 with; where you came from, okay? And what it was that 16 you learned when you arrived. 17 A: I was just -- come from Oneida, went 18 out there with Buck and Gabe and Al George and somebody 19 else can't remember what his name is. 20 I just went out there and when we got 21 there there was all kinds of cops. 22 Q: All right, well, we'll come to that 23 in a moment. And let me just ask you to clarify, if you 24 would please, when you refer to Buck, you are referring 25 to Buck Doxtator?
1061 A: Yes. 2 Q: And Gabe would be Gabe Doxtator? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: They are both residents of Oneida? 5 A: I think so, yeah. 6 Q: And you mentioned Al George. I take 7 it he is from Oneida as well -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- is he? And he's a relative of 10 yours? 11 A: As far as I know he's my cousin. 12 Q: What about Larry French? Do you 13 recall whether or not he was also in attendance? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Anybody else beyond -- beyond 16 that? 17 A: I don't think so. 18 Q: Can you recall how it was that you 19 travelled, then, from Oneida to -- to Stoney Point? 20 A: I was just asked to go for a ride, 21 and go visit, so I decided to go. 22 Q: And do you recall who it was that 23 asked you to go for a ride before you decided to go? 24 A: I think it was Al. 25 Q: And --
1071 A: We -- we went fishing quite a bit 2 together, did a lot of hunting together. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Okay. And was there any in -- pardon 7 me, any intention on this occasion, as you can recall it, 8 Mr. George, to go either hunting or fishing as you were 9 going to Stoney Point on -- 10 A: Just fishing. 11 Q: Okay. Do you recall what the date 12 was that you would have gone with these other individuals 13 as you've indicated? 14 A: I can't remember. I think it was the 15 5th or the 4th or something. 5th, I think. 16 Q: Okay. So your recollection is, 17 perhaps it was the day before Dudley George was killed? 18 A: I think so, I'm not sure. 19 Q: Okay. As far as you can recall, Mr. 20 George, do you know whether or not any of these 21 individuals you've identified for us, had previously been 22 to the -- to Stoney Point? 23 A: I thought they were all there at one 24 point. 25 Q: Okay. And do you know what their
1081 reasons would be for going there? And you've already 2 told us yours was to go fishing. 3 A: Go visit. 4 Q: Okay. I think you've already 5 indicated that Al George was a fishing and hunting 6 partner of yours. 7 Did you go fishing or hunting with him 8 there? 9 A: I went fishing with him there. 10 Q: Okay. And I suppose I should ask you 11 whether or not you had ever been hunting at the -- at the 12 Stoney Point lands? 13 A: Never. 14 Q: Okay. And perhaps just so it's 15 clear, had you ever had occasion to use a firearm while 16 at the Stoney Point lands? 17 A: No. When I was there, I haven't see 18 -- I didn't see no firearms while I was there. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And your -- your travel mate, Al 23 George, who had also been a fishing partner of yours, I 24 understand that he has passed on? 25 A: Yes.
1091 Q: And can you tell us when that was? 2 A: I'm not quite sure what -- it was a 3 while ago. 4 Q: All right. So on this occasion, when 5 you attended at Stoney Point with the people you've 6 indicated, can you just go ahead then, and let us -- tell 7 us what happened? 8 A: I just went to visit, that's all. We 9 just went to visit them, that was it. 10 Q: And you went to visit? 11 A: Mostly Dudley. 12 Q: Okay. I take it there were others 13 that you would have visited or that perhaps some of -- 14 A: Just at his -- 15 Q: -- the people that you travelled 16 with? 17 A: Just at his trailer, is where we 18 mostly seen everybody. 19 Q: I take it others, then, from Stoney 20 Point would come to Dudley's trailer, is that -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Is that fair? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. And in terms of the visit 25 on this instance, and I think you've told us that it was,
1101 to the best of your recollection, the 5th of September? 2 A: I think so, I'm not sure. 3 Q: All right. And as difficult as it 4 is, are you able to tell us what time of day you might 5 have arrived? 6 A: No, I can't. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: You visited Dudley's trailer, and I 11 take it that at some point either that day or -- or 12 perhaps the next, but in any event at some point, you 13 went to the Provincial Park? 14 A: Yes, I don't know what -- I think it 15 was the 5th or something, went down there, went to go 16 swimming. 17 Q: I'm just wondering if that's being 18 picked up by the... 19 A: To swim. 20 Q: I'm sorry, go ahead, Mr. George. 21 A: No, go ahead, I can't. 22 Q: Was it your response, sir, that you 23 believe that it was on the 5th? 24 A: Yes, I think so, sir. 25 Q: And it was on the 5th that you
1111 believe that you would have attended to the Provincial 2 Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you recall the -- the way in 5 which you got to the Provincial Park and who it was that 6 you would have been in the company of, if anyone? 7 A: I can't remember. I know Al was 8 there with me. I can't remember who else was. 9 Q: I'm sorry, you were there with? 10 A: Oh, Al -- 11 Q: With Al George? 12 A: Yes. I can't remember who else. 13 Maybe all of us went together -- we went on down there 14 together, like. 15 Q: And those are the individuals -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- that you had mentioned, Buck, Gabe 18 and Larry and Al -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And whose vehicle were you travelling 21 in? 22 A: I'm not sure. 23 Q: So I understand, do you know whether 24 or not any of the individuals that you were in the 25 company with, that travelled from Oneida to Stoney Point,
1121 had any firearms with them? 2 A: No, I never. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: What I understood was they give the 5 keys and everything over to them, so I thought it was -- 6 they give it back to them, so I don't know. 7 Q: I'm sorry, I may have -- I may have 8 not expressed myself properly. I'm just trying to get a 9 sense of whether or not you were aware if there were any 10 weapons, -- 11 A: No, there was no weapons. 12 Q: -- firearms, in the vehicle, that 13 might have belonged to others. 14 A: There was no weapons there at all. 15 Q: All right. And I'm sorry, you had -- 16 you were of the impression that the keys were handed over 17 to the people in occupation? 18 A: Yes. I thought they were given back 19 to Park, I thought. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall how it was 21 that you came to this understanding, that the Park had 22 been given back to them? 23 A: Because I was told that they were 24 given the keys for the water plant and everything. 25 Q: And do you recall who it was, Mr.
1131 George, that would have told you that the keys to the 2 water plant and everything were given to them? 3 A: I'm not sure who it was. I though it 4 was Judas, but I'm not sure. 5 Q: And when you say Judas, you are 6 referring to Roderick George? Are you familiar with -- 7 with that name in relation to the person you identify as 8 Judas? 9 A: No, I just know him as Judas. 10 Q: All right. You won't disagree with 11 me when I tell you that Roderick George and Judas are one 12 in the same? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Mr. George, do you recall 15 what time of day, and I -- forgive me if I've already 16 asked this, what time of day it might have been when you 17 got to the Park? 18 A: I can't remember. 19 Q: Can you tell us what it is you recall 20 seeing when you arrived at the Park on -- on what I think 21 you have suggested was the 5th of September, 1995? 22 A: It was a roadblock in that area. 23 Everybody was stopping everybody. 24 Q: Okay. Can you tell us a bit about 25 that, please?
1141 A: We stopped and we went in. 2 Q: Now is this at the Park or at the 3 Army Base? 4 A: The Army Base. 5 Q: Okay. So just in relation to the -- 6 just in relation to that map up on the screen, which is, 7 I've indicated earlier, is P40, can you tell us where you 8 recall a roadblock being? 9 A: We were out here someplace. 10 Q: And you're indicating just to the 11 east of Army Camp Road on Highway 21? 12 A: It was on -- it wasn't on Highway 21, 13 it was on the other road, I think, I'm not sure. We got 14 stopped in here in front of their -- right in front of 15 their -- the reserve there. 16 Q: I'm sorry, I didn't get that -- 17 A: We got stopped right in front of the 18 reserve there, right in front of the gate. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: So we just walked in. 21 Q: And would you be good enough, sir, 22 just to take the pen again and mark the Exhibit P-161, 23 and if you would put a Number 2 there, that would -- in 24 the approximately location of where you recall a -- a 25 roadblock.
1151 And before I move off on that point, I 2 wonder if you would describe for us, what your 3 recollection is of that roadblock? 4 A: They just asked us our names and we 5 went in. 6 Q: Okay. When you say, they, I'm going 7 to assume that it's the Ontario Provincial Police. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you tell us how many there were 10 there and what the roadblock looked like? 11 A: I can't remember how many was there. 12 There was a few of them. I can't remember. 13 Q: So they inquired of your names? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you provided that, I take it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And were there any questions beyond 18 that that you can recall today for us? 19 A: No. Well, they asked us if -- I 20 can't remember what they said, they asked us something, I 21 can't remember. 22 Q: Do you recall, sir, whether or not 23 there was a search of your vehicle? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: So, you were then allowed to -- to
1161 proceed, you entered to the Army Base, -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- the barracks area. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I -- do I understand you that you 6 would have went straight to Dudley George's trailer? 7 A: Well there was a -- there was a bunch 8 of people inside that were just visiting -- went to a -- 9 visited in there for a while. We seen -- we seen Glenn 10 there, and visited him for awhile. 11 Q: Glenn George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: In the barracks area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And was it at that time 16 that you had learned, or at -- when did you learn that 17 there was an occupation of the Park, that the keys had 18 been turned over to them and what you've already advised 19 us? 20 A: At that -- at that time when it wa -- 21 Q: Okay. And then you went up to the -- 22 to the Camp, did you? Pardon me, to the Park. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you went in the company of those 25 people that you've already describe for us?
1171 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you recall how you got there? 3 A: On a truck. 4 Q: Okay. Do you know whose truck? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: It might have been Larry's, I'm not 8 sure. 9 Q: Do you think that it might have been 10 Larry's truck that you came to Stoney Point in -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- from Oneida? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. And once you arrive at 15 the Park, can you go ahead and tell us what you did and 16 what you seen? 17 A: I think we went fishing or swimming 18 first and there was a bunch of people around there. 19 Q: And what do you recall those people 20 doing around there? 21 A: Just talking. 22 Q: Okay. Did you recognize any of the 23 people that you seen around there just talking? 24 A: Yeah, Dudley was down there. He got 25 down there and a couple of other people.
1181 Q: All right. 2 A: I can't remember exactly what their 3 names are. 4 Q: Okay. But you certainly knew Dudley? 5 A: Pardon? 6 Q: You knew Dudley? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the others you were not entirely 9 familiar with? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did you see Glenn George around there 12 at -- at that stage? 13 A: I can't remember. I don't think so. 14 Q: And you've indicated that you're 15 familiar with Judas -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- that is, Roderick George, and did 18 you see him around there? 19 A: Once or twice I seen him around 20 there, yeah. 21 Q: All right. Did you see an incident 22 involving Roderick and the Ontario Provincial Police? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you hear about an incident, 25 perhaps, where Roderick George had broken the window of a
1191 OPP car? 2 A: No. It might have happened, I can't 3 remember. 4 Q: As you're in the Park, Mr. George, 5 did you see any Ontario Provincial Police officers in the 6 vicinity, whether inside or outside of the Park? 7 A: Yes, there was a few down there. 8 Q: Okay. Were they inside or outside of 9 the Park fence? 10 A: They were outside of the Park fence. 11 Q: And can you provide us with any 12 indication as to how many you might have observed outside 13 the Park fence? 14 A: I don't know, about maybe twenty (20) 15 or thirty (30). 16 Q: Okay. Did you have any discussion 17 with them or did you see anybody else have any discussion 18 with them? 19 A: Well, the -- the day before -- the 20 day before they killed Dudley, one (1) of the -- there 21 was a bunch of cops out there and they -- the wanted to 22 fight. And they threat -- he -- he told Dudley, You're 23 the first on our list. The next day they -- they killed 24 him. 25 Q: Okay.
1201 A: They more or less murdered him, I'd 2 say. 3 Q: Over your right shoulder, Mr. George, 4 is a -- a map that's been marked -- I'm sorry, the other 5 -- the other side, there is a map that has been marked as 6 P-23. Do you recognize that, first of all? 7 A: Yes. Yes. 8 Q: You'll agree with me that that is a 9 depiction of the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 10 Parkway Drive? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And do you recognize the 13 area that is marked as a turnstile, the -- the entrance 14 of the Park? 15 A: Over there, yeah. Yes. 16 Q: All right. In relation to that 17 diagram and what you've just described to us as, there 18 was a number of police officers in the area, is that the 19 area that they were in? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And can you, with the laser pointer, 22 just indicate if you would, please, the area that the 23 twenty (20) or so police officers -- 24 A: Around here. 25 Q: Okay, and for the record you're
1211 indicating what has been described as the sandy parking 2 lot area? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Just one (1) moment, please. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And if I could ask you, Mr. George, 9 if you would simply take the red pen, again on the table 10 in front of you, and if you would mark the map that you 11 have just pointed to with the laser pointer. You can go 12 right up on the map, that's -- 13 A: Up on here? 14 Q: -- that's up on the board. Yes, sir. 15 And if you want to just go ahead and -- and make a number 16 of markings where you had observed the officers. 17 A: They were around here some place. 18 Q: All right. And where was -- where 19 were you when you heard this exchange? 20 A: Over here. 21 Q: I'll ask you to put a Number 2 there, 22 if you would please. And perhaps on the earlier marking, 23 if you would put a Number 1. 24 And, Commissioner, if I could have that 25 map marked as an exhibit? I think we're at 162.
1221 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, your Honour, P-162. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-162. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-162: "Stan" Thompson drawing 5 September 20/'95 Marked by 6 Witness Charles George, 7 February 08/'95 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Now, in relation to where you've made 11 those markings for us, Mr. George, how far away would you 12 say that you were when you -- when you heard this? 13 A: Around twenty (20) feet. 14 Q: Okay. And can you tell us where 15 Dudley George was when this was said? 16 A: He was standing behind me. Around 17 right on this -- 18 Q: Perhaps you can put a Number 3 there, 19 if you would please. 20 A: I think it's around that area some 21 place. I'm not quite sure, it's been so long. 22 Q: And I appreciate it's difficult, Mr. 23 George, because of the passage of time to recall these 24 things, but can you tell us again what it was that you 25 heard and what reaction, if any, Dudley George had?
1231 A: It was like -- all I remember is that 2 police officer -- you're the first -- he said you're the 3 first on our list, Dudley. Like, I don't know -- know 4 what he felt. 5 Q: Did you see any visible reaction from 6 him? Did you -- did you look at Mr. -- at Dudley George 7 when this was said? 8 A: He was walking away at the time. 9 Q: Okay. And before this was said, do 10 you know whether there was any interaction, whether there 11 was any exchanges, verbal or otherwise, as between either 12 Dudley George and the police officers or anybody else, 13 inside of the Park? 14 A: Just that one (1) police officer who 15 said he wanted to fight with Judas, then he said, Anybody 16 else? 17 Q: One (1) police officer wanted to 18 fight with Judas? 19 A: Yeah, he asked for Judas and he said, 20 Anybody else? 21 Q: Was Judas around when -- 22 A: No, he wasn't. 23 Q: -- this invitation was given? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Can you describe the
1241 person who, as you put it, wanted to fight? 2 A: He was a -- a short, blonde guy, kind 3 of stocky. 4 Q: All right. And beyond wanting to 5 fight, can you tell us about how that came about, what 6 was said, what actions were taken; if you can recall? 7 A: I can't remember what was called -- I 8 can't remember -- I can't recall what was said, but at 9 one (1) point they said, Welcome to Canada. 10 Q: Did it seem to you, Mr. George, that 11 these various comments and invitations to fight, and 12 welcoming and that sort of thing, was that by more than 13 one (1) officer or was it the one (1) officer as you've 14 described? 15 A: It seemed like they were all -- they 16 were all acting like that, talking like that. Welcome to 17 Canada, a bunch of them said that. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know whether there was 19 any indication given, Mr. George, either in -- in your 20 presence or were you told about any invitation for the 21 people in the Park to leave the Park? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I can't remember.
1251 Q: Did the police tell you -- 2 A: I don't -- I don't -- 3 Q: -- to leave? 4 A: I don't remember hearing them say 5 leave? They might have, I can't remember. 6 Q: We are told something as well, or we 7 have been told, Mr. George, something about picnic tables 8 in that same area you've described for us. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And is there something you can tell 11 us about that? 12 A: They were just sitting on the tables 13 and the Cops drove into it with their cars and just 14 pushed them out of the way. 15 Q: All right. Do you recall what day or 16 what time of day this might have occurred? 17 A: It was at nighttime, the night before 18 they shot Dudley, I think, I'm not sure. 19 Q: All right. And in relation to that 20 map that's now been marked as one sixty-two (162), the 21 map up beside you, would you be good enough to take that 22 red pen and simply indicate where the picnic tables were? 23 A: (INDICATING) 24 Q: And I take it it's -- you've made an 25 "X" there, is that --
1261 A: With a "4". 2 Q: A Number 4, thank you. And I take it 3 that there was more than one (1) picnic table or was 4 there only one (1)? 5 A: There was -- I don't know how many, 6 but there was a few. 7 Q: Do you know how those picnic tables 8 got out there? 9 A: Somebody must have put them there to 10 sit down. 11 Q: Okay. And do I take it from that 12 response, Mr. George, that picnic tables were already in 13 that location when you came upon them? 14 A: They weren't there, somebody must 15 have put them there. I don't know who did it, though. 16 Q: All right. You didn't? 17 A: I can't remember. 18 Q: Okay. Besides the picnic tables, can 19 you recall whether there was, perhaps, a fire in that 20 location? 21 A: I think there might have been. 22 Q: All right. What about a tent or 23 anything like that or some -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- kind of an arbour or covering?
1271 A: I can't remember. 2 Q: Do you know why the -- if, in fact, 3 there was a fire there, do you know what the purpose of 4 that would have been? 5 A: Keep warm. 6 Q: All right. And do know what the 7 purpose of having the picnic tables in that location, 8 that you've now indicated with a Number 4, what the 9 reason for the picnic tables being there was? 10 A: No, I don't. I don't know. 11 Q: Okay. You've described then that 12 those picnic tables were rammed or pushed. 13 A: Yes, they were rammed by the poli -- 14 by the cruisers. 15 Q: Okay, and when you say, Cruisers, I 16 take that to mean more than one (1)? 17 A: Yes, I don't know how many, though, I 18 can't remember. I know there was more than one (1). 19 Q: Could you describe that event, as to 20 what happened? 21 A: We were sit -- sitting on the tables 22 and the Cops wanted to start pushing them with their 23 cars. 24 Q: All right. And when you -- 25 A: People were jumping off the tables,
1281 trying not to get run over. 2 Q: And when you say, We were sitting on 3 tables and people were jumping off, how many people were 4 on the tables and who were they, if you can recall? 5 A: I don't know who it was and I can't 6 remember how many. I know there was a few of us sitting 7 down. 8 Q: Okay, and you were certainly on 9 there? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you jump off the table? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. What happened to the tables? 14 What became of them? 15 A: I can't remember. They were just -- 16 they were just pushed out of the way. 17 Q: Okay. Was anything said to you 18 before this ramming of the tables with police vehicles? 19 A: No, they just came up and just pushed 20 them, as far as I can remember. 21 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 22 anybody was injured as a result of that event you've 23 described? 24 A: I'm not quite sure. 25 Q: Were you injured?
1291 A: No, I jumped out of the way. 2 Q: And after you jumped out of the way 3 and the tables were pushed, where were they pushed to? 4 A: Just around -- just pushed out of the 5 way. The cars hit them and they're -- went sliding out 6 of the way. 7 Q: Okay. Did they -- were they moved 8 from the location that you've marked with a Number 4? 9 A: They were pushed aside by the cars. 10 Q: Okay. Do you know why that was done? 11 A: I don't know. Probably try and run 12 us over, I guess, I don't know. 13 Q: Okay. So, that's what you took it 14 as? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. What happens after that, 17 Mr. George? 18 A: I can't quite recall now, like, it 19 all blurs together. It happened so fast, everything. It 20 was so long ago. 21 Q: All right. What's the next thing, 22 that -- then, that you can recall for us? 23 A: I think rocks were being thrown that 24 time too. 25 Q: And who would be throwing the rocks?
1301 A: I thought the cops were throwing 2 them. And we started throwing them back. 3 Q: All right. Did you see any -- any 4 cops, as you've put it, outside of their vehicles as -- 5 A: Throwing rocks, yeah. 6 Q: -- this was going on? 7 A: After. After they pushed -- pushed 8 the tables out the way. 9 Q: All right. Now you've described in 10 that location earlier, and you've made a marking on that 11 map, Mr. George, twenty (20) or so officers. 12 Can you recall now at -- at this point in 13 time that you're telling us about, how many officers 14 there might have been? 15 A: I can't remember. 16 Q: It's your recollection, however, that 17 they were throwing rocks at you? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And the response was to throw rocks 20 back? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you know whether anybody was hit 23 as a result of this exchange? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: We have been told something about a
1311 motor vehicle that was painted with the words, "OPP Who" 2 on the side of it, and it's been described variously as 3 the "OPP Who" car. 4 Do you recall seeing that there, Mr. 5 George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you recall who the operator of 8 that vehicle might have been? 9 A: I think his name is Robert. 10 Q: Do you know his last name. 11 A: I think it's Isaacs, I'm not sure. 12 Q: And aside from seeing him, you did 13 see him drive this vehicle? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you tell us anything about 16 the manner in which he was driving, what he was doing? 17 A: It was on -- everybody seen it on the 18 news, he was spinning around. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: But he wasn't like that all the time 21 though. 22 Q: All right. You were in the Park at 23 the time? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: In order to see that, I guess you
1321 were there. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: Unless I seen it on the news. 5 Q: Okay. And that's what I'm trying to 6 get clear as to whether you have an actual recollection 7 of seeing this -- 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: -- or whether you have a recollection 10 of observing this on the news? 11 A: Well, both. 12 Q: Did you stay at the Park that night, 13 Mr. George? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And aside from those events that 16 you've described for us, is there anything else that you 17 can recall for us today, sir, that sticks out in your 18 mind, from the day before Dudley George was shot? 19 A: No. No, sir. 20 Q: And do you know where you might have 21 stayed that night? 22 A: I can't remember, just stayed 23 someplace. 24 Q: All right. Certainly not in the 25 Park?
1331 A: No. 2 Q: And you returned to the Park on the 3 6th of September, 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you know what time you might have 6 returned there? 7 A: Maybe around noon or just before 8 that. 9 Q: Okay. And as you returned to the 10 Park around noon or just before that, do you know how you 11 would have got to the Park, first of all? 12 A: I got a ride with somebody, I can't 13 remember who it was. 14 Q: Do you know the route that you would 15 have gotten a ride to the Park? 16 A: Went down that one (1) road, the one 17 that went from the Camp down to the Park. 18 Q: Okay. Again, just so that everybody 19 can see where you're indicating, up on the screen to your 20 left, pardon me, your right, -- 21 A: It must be that -- that road right 22 there. 23 Q: And for the record, you're indicating 24 the road to the north of the barracks, adjacent to Army 25 Camp Road, on the inside of Stoney Point?
1341 A: Yeah. It goes all the way down 2 there. 3 Q: As you're travelling on that road and 4 getting a ride, were you able to make any observations as 5 to the presence of police? 6 A: Yeah, there was a few of them parked 7 around there. 8 Q: And did it seem to you that there was 9 any difference in relation to what you had seen the day 10 before? 11 A: No, around the same. 12 Q: All right, now you've already told us 13 that there was a road block or a barricade at the 14 intersection, approximately at the intersection, of Army 15 Camp Road and Highway 21? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did you see any other like barricades 18 either along Army Camp Road or anywhere else? 19 A: I never seen them, but there was cops 20 parked along the road there. 21 Q: Along which road? 22 A: This one right here. That road that 23 was right on this side, just outside of the Park. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Or outside side of the Camp there.
1351 Q: And that is -- we know that that is 2 Army Camp Road; you're aware of that? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And when you seen cops parked 5 there, I take it, well, let me ask you, how many, first 6 of all? 7 A: I can't remember. There was a few 8 cars parked here and there. 9 Q: Did it seem to you whether -- well, 10 were they there the day before; can you recall? 11 A: Yes, I think so. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And once you got to the Park, I think 17 you've indicated around noon or so, or afternoon, what 18 was going on? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I can't really remember. 23 Q: Okay, can you remember what you did 24 at all, that -- that day? 25 A: I was sitting around there. There
1361 was a helicopter flying around there. I remember seeing 2 that. 3 Q: Can you tell us about that? Do you 4 recall any details about a helicopter flying around 5 there? 6 A: I just seen it flying around, that's 7 all. 8 Q: Can you recall whether you would have 9 seen anybody inside the helicopter and if so -- 10 A: I -- I never looked. I just seen it 11 flying up there. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Just above the trees. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know what that 15 helicopter was doing there? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Was there any discussion among the 18 occupants in the Park about that helicopter flying just 19 above the trees? 20 A: Yeah, but I can't remember what was 21 said. 22 Q: Okay. In terms of the police that 23 you seen in the area that day, can you describe how they 24 were -- how they were dressed? 25 A: No, I can't. I can't remember how
1371 they were dressed. 2 Q: Okay. And at any point in the day, 3 did you have opportunity or occasion to see that parking 4 lot? 5 A: Yes. That -- during the day 6 sometime, the day -- I think it was the same day that 7 they murdered Dudley, they -- there was a couple of cops 8 -- there was a few cops running around on -- on the -- 9 the prop -- the grass right beside the sandy beach there, 10 the sandy parking lot. 11 They were rolling around with, they had -- 12 well, they had little rifles like this. 13 Q: You've just indicated with your hands 14 approximately a metre wide, a metre long, pardon me? 15 Perhaps less than that? 16 A: Well, maybe a foot or so. Maybe a 17 little bit longer. Looked kind of far because we were at 18 -- on the other side over there. 19 Q: All right. And I'm going to ask you 20 about some details on that in a moment, but what was it 21 that was more than just over a foot long that they were 22 rolling around with. 23 A: It looked like they had rif -- little 24 rifles. 25 Q: Okay.
1381 A: That's what it looked like to me. 2 Q: And they were -- 3 A: I can only say what I seen. 4 Q: Yes, absolutely. And it seemed to 5 you that they were rolling around, did you say? 6 A: Yeah, well like they were diving and 7 rolling and crawling, Army crawl. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know how many of 9 them there might have been that were doing this? 10 A: I thought I seen about, maybe ten 11 (10). 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I can't exactly say how many. 14 Q: Do you know whether anybody else had 15 seen this? 16 A: I thought a few of them seen it, I'm 17 not sure. 18 Q: Okay. Did you have any discussion 19 with anybody about this? 20 A: Just -- yes, somebody said, look at 21 that; that's why I looked and seen them. 22 Q: All right. Now, if you can just 23 refer to the map. Is -- is that the area that you would 24 have observed this activity? 25 A: Right around here, on the grass.
1391 Q: Okay, I wonder if you might just put 2 a marking there again. Perhaps a line in the general 3 vicinity of where this activity had occurred and I think 4 if you can put the next number. Is that a Number 5? 5 A: I believe it was in here. In this 6 area here. I think that's where it was. 7 Q: All right. Could you describe how it 8 was that those people were dressed I -- 9 A: They were dressed -- 10 Q: It seems to me I may have just asked 11 you 12 A: They were dressed all in black or 13 grey -- really grey or black or it was darker. 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: Like a -- like a dark grey or light 16 black or something. 17 Q: All right. So, dark grey shirts? 18 A: They had bullet-proof vests on. They 19 had suits on. They had bullet-proof vests on. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: That's all I could see. 22 Q: Do you recall any head covering? 23 A: It looked like they had those hats 24 with the shields on them. I can't remember. 25 Q: And -- and they had what appeared to
1401 be small -- 2 A: Yeah. It looked like -- it looked 3 like those rifles they had in that picture of them when 4 they were running through the -- away from that little -- 5 where they had those ambulance and stuff. It shows a 6 picture in the newspaper of that cop carrying that rifle; 7 that's what they looked like. 8 Q: Yeah. Hang on -- hang on one (1) sec 9 if you would, please? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: That is a photograph that's been 14 marked as (131), Mr. George. 15 A: Yeah. It looks like these -- those 16 little rifles there. 17 Q: And there are two (2), what I'm going 18 to suggest are police officers, one (1) of whom is 19 carrying -- a female officer who is carrying a long -- it 20 looks like a silver-barrelled weapon. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And there's another individual and I 23 -- there's not a real clear picture of the item that that 24 individual is carrying. 25 A: It looks like a little rifle.
1411 Q: Okay. And that's what it seems to 2 you -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- that these individuals you've 5 described for us, were carrying? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And in terms of those individuals 8 that you've described in the area that you've marked with 9 a Number 5, they -- 10 A: That day their suits were -- they 11 weren't that colour, they would like be grey. 12 Q: All right. And you're referring to 13 the photograph marked as one thirty-one (131). They are 14 dressed in what appears to be green fatigues. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And it looked like -- something like 18 that little one right there -- was how big they looked. 19 Q: Again for the record, you're pointing 20 to the second individual on the -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- right side of the photograph -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- who appears to be carrying a small 25 item that you think is consistent with what you've seen
1421 on that day. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Is there anything about 4 that particular event, Mr. George, that you can tell us 5 about? 6 A: No, I can't remember too much else. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I think I left after that. 9 Q: Okay. You left to where? 10 A: Went to get something to eat. 11 Q: And where would you have left to get 12 something to eat at? 13 A: At the, what they call the barracks, 14 I guess. 15 Q: All right. The barracks or the 16 built-up area? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: During the course of -- of the day 19 that you were there or the days previous, at the Park 20 that is, did you see any activity involving mirrors and 21 shining -- shining mirrors, that sort of thing, 22 reflecting sunlight? 23 A: Yeah I seen -- yeah I seen some 24 people doing that. 25 Q: What can you tell us about that?
1431 A: Some of them were shining lights at 2 each other, that's all. 3 Q: I'm sorry? Some of them -- 4 A: They were just shining the mirrors at 5 the -- from the sunlight at each other. The -- the cops 6 were doing it too, I think. They were shining at each 7 other. 8 Q: Do you recall who, first of all, from 9 the -- from inside of the Park was doing this? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: All right. And you've said that the 12 Cops were doing this and I think you also said, I think, 13 and it -- 14 A: Yeah, I can't remember, it's been so 15 long. 16 Q: All right. Fair enough. Before you 17 left to get something to eat or after you came back, did 18 you observe whether there were any women or children in 19 the Park? 20 A: There are always women and children 21 in the Park. 22 Q: And did it seem to you that they were 23 concerned or alarmed or anything extraordinary, out of 24 the usual, was going on? 25 A: I can't -- I -- I can't say what they
1441 were thinking or anything, I don't know. 2 Q: But did it seem to you like any of 3 them, whether women or children, were -- were alarmed? 4 A: Not at that moment. They were just 5 pointing, and saying, look. 6 Q: Pointing? 7 A: At -- when -- when those -- at the 8 police when they were running around with their little 9 rifles there, they were -- 10 Q: And this is before you left to go get 11 something to eat? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And if you arrived there at around 14 noon or just after, do you recall what time it might have 15 been, when you went to get something to eat? 16 A: I can't remember. 17 Q: Okay. And did you return to the 18 Park, sir, after you got something to eat? 19 A: Sometime after, I don't know when. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: We were -- I was there, like, going 22 back and forth all day. 23 Q: Commissioner, it would be my 24 intention to move into the -- into the events of the 25 evening of September the 6th, and I'm wondering, and
1451 again I -- I'll be guided by you as to what you wish to 2 do, whether this might be a time to take the lunch break. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you think this would 4 be a good time? I mean if I have to -- 5 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm just not sure what 6 time we -- we typically would be breaking. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we could go a 8 little longer. I think we're going to break at 4:30 this 9 afternoon, I don't want to break too early. Why don't we 10 go to 12:30? 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Certainly. Thank you, 12 sir. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: You would have returned, in any 16 event, Mr. George, at some point, to the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I take it you would have 19 travelled the same route, the same route as you've 20 indicated earlier, the road adjacent to the Army Camp 21 Road inside of the Base? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And when you returned back to the 24 Park then, on this occasion, after getting something to 25 eat, can you tell us anything about, first of all, the
1461 time of day, as to whether it was -- 2 A: It was daylight, yeah, it was -- 3 Q: It was still daylight. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Go on. 6 A: I just -- I can't remember too much 7 of it. 8 Q: Can you recall whether or not there 9 were more people in the Park, whether there were less 10 people in the Park? 11 A: Around the same. 12 Q: Whether there were more police 13 outside of the Park? Well, first of all, whether there 14 were any police outside of the Park? 15 A: There are always police outside the 16 Park, it seemed like. 17 Q: And did it seem to you that there 18 were more or less or the same am -- same amount as 19 previous? 20 A: Well, when I went back down there, 21 there was no -- there was nobody down there after, anyone 22 -- there was no cops down there for a while, I think, I 23 can't remember so. It's hard to remember that long ago. 24 Q: I understand. But is it -- it seems 25 to be your recollection that when you returned that there
1471 were no police outside of the Park? 2 A: That one (1) time, yeah. 3 Q: Okay. What's the next thing that you 4 can recall then, having returned to the Park after 5 getting something to eat, Mr. George? 6 A: I can't -- I can't remember too much, 7 it blurs together. After a while there's a -- it was 8 dark out and those cops were walking down the -- coming 9 toward us, there was a whole bunch of them all across the 10 road. 11 They had shields or side -- their shields 12 were almost -- it seemed like they were touching, they 13 were that close together. 14 Q: Well, I'll have you describe those 15 shields for us then, would you? 16 A: They were just, you know, like big 17 plastic shields. 18 Q: You're indicating with your hands -- 19 A: They were -- I don't know how big 20 they were, they were wide enough to cover you up. 21 Q: Okay. Two (2) or three (3) feet 22 wide; is that fair? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And how long? 25 A: I don't know, about -- I don't know -
1481 - I can't -- I can't -- there's enough shields they're 2 holding like this. 3 Q: Okay. And you're indicating with 4 your forearm in front of you. 5 A: Yeah, they had -- only they had 6 straps, were holding them like this. 7 Q: Okay. And these are clear shields -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- steel shields? 10 A: No, like they were clear shields. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: They had riot gear on. 13 Q: And would you describe that for us. 14 What do you mean by riot gear? Did you see -- 15 A: Looked like they had all black 16 clothes on with bullet-proof vests and, you know, like 17 they had -- they had steel batons and little -- like 18 little rifles on their side. 19 Q: Okay. You seen little rifles? 20 A: I -- I thought I did. I'm not sure. 21 Q: Okay. What about sidearms? 22 Handguns? 23 A: No, I think they all had sidearms. 24 Q: Okay. And it seems to you that, at 25 least you think someone -- somebody had little guns; is
1491 that what -- 2 A: That's what it looked like the police 3 had. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Can you tell us how many police 6 officers you -- you would have seen that were carrying 7 the shields almost touching? 8 A: I don't know. I'd say about -- I'd 9 say at least a hundred (100), hundred and fifty (150) it 10 looked like to me. 11 Q: All right. And I take that it would 12 have been difficult to see? You've told us that it was 13 dark out -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- by this time. 16 A: There was people out -- they were all 17 the way across the road it takes quite a few -- quite -- 18 quite a bit of people and they had more than one (1) row, 19 there was -- 20 Q: They went all the way across the 21 road, we understand from -- from others who have 22 testified that they were coming down East Parkway? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And again, in reference to the map 25 that's been marked as 161, where were you when you made
1501 this observation? 2 A: Around here some place. 3 Q: And you've made a Number 6 there? 4 A: Yes, they was around that area some 5 place. 6 Q: And is it just behind the turnstile? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And where were these 9 officers as you've described them, where were they? 10 A: They were here. 11 Q: All right, would you put a Number 7 12 there, where you just drew that line? Thank you. 13 A: I think there was about three (3) or 14 four (4) rows of them, I can't remember. 15 Q: And how many, in your -- in your 16 estimation, Mr. George, were standing so their shields 17 were almost touching and spread all the way across the 18 road? 19 A: I don't know, about -- I don't know, 20 about twenty (20) or thirty (30) maybe. They had three 21 (3) or -- they had three (3) or four (4) rows and there 22 were more than one (1). 23 Q: And then three (3) or four (4) rows 24 behind -- 25 A: Yeah.
1511 Q: -- the front line, is that -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And could you tell whether or not 4 that those in the lines behind the front line also -- 5 were they dressed the same? 6 A: They come down -- they were marching 7 down the road together. 8 Q: Did you hear them saying anything as 9 they were marching down the road together? 10 A: Somebody was saying something, I 11 don't know what. 12 Q: Okay. And aside from marching down 13 the road together, were the people that were doing the 14 marching, were they saying anything that you can recall? 15 A: I don't know. No, not that I can 16 recall. 17 Q: Okay. I take it there were others 18 inside the Park beside you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you recall who it was that was 21 beside you? 22 A: No. There was a bunch of us. 23 Q: Do you know how many people in the 24 Park, when you say "a bunch of us," how many that might 25 have been?
1521 A: About fifteen (15), twenty (20) 2 maybe. 3 Q: Fifteen (15) to twenty (20)? 4 A: Yeah, around that -- that amount. 5 Q: And do you know whether they were 6 men, women, children? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: Men and women and children. 10 Q: I see. And can you recall for us 11 today what the breakdown of that might be in terms of how 12 many men, how many women, how many children? 13 A: I can't say because I don't -- I 14 don't know. 15 Q: Okay. Do you know what, if anything, 16 that they were doing, the others that is, this fifteen 17 (15) or twenty (20)? 18 A: We were just standing there, watching 19 them. 20 Q: Do you know what the feeling was 21 amongst the others as you were standing there watching 22 this? 23 A: I'm not sure. 24 Q: Can you tell us what your feeling 25 was?
1531 A: I don't know, I thought they were 2 going to kill us all. 3 Q: Okay. Can I take it from that, that 4 you were somewhat fearful? 5 A: Not really. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: All we do is defend burial grounds, 8 every time we defend the burial grounds, somebody to try 9 to kill us. 10 Q: All right. Just let me -- just let 11 me touch on that for a moment, Mr. George, in terms of 12 burial grounds, okay? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: What do you know about burial grounds 15 in that -- in that area or region? 16 A: I was just told there was a burial 17 grounds in that area there. 18 Q: Okay, and when you say "that area" 19 are you referring -- 20 A: To the Park. 21 Q: -- to the Park area? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Can you recall for us who would have 24 told you that? 25 A: I can't remember who it was.
1541 Q: Were you told where the burial 2 grounds were inside of the Park? 3 A: I can't remember. I just remember 4 that somebody said there was burial grounds in there. 5 Q: Okay. And then I take it from that, 6 then, that it was your feeling that what was being done 7 there was defending these burial grounds -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- is that what you had said? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Could you determine what the 12 feelings were among the others that you were standing 13 with inside the Park? 14 A: No, I couldn't. 15 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 16 there had been any forewarning of the fact that the 17 police were coming down the road? 18 A: I'm not sure. 19 Q: Okay. You didn't have any -- any 20 warning that they were coming? 21 A: We just seen them coming. 22 Q: Okay. And before you seen them 23 coming, Mr. George, did you know that they were going to 24 be coming? 25 A: No.
1551 Q: Okay. How was it, Mr. George, that 2 you were able to see that there this number of officers, 3 that they were standing shields together? How was it 4 that you were able to see them? You've told us that it 5 was dark, that it was night. 6 A: I don't know. I think there was 7 lights on the -- out there some place, police had lights 8 set up, I think. 9 Q: Okay. And what's your -- what's your 10 recollection about how you think the police had lights 11 set up. 12 A: Because you could see the lights on 13 the -- on the road. 14 Q: Okay. Lights behind them? 15 A: No, they had them on their -- there 16 was some lights on the road. I don't know what that -- I 17 don't know when they got there but I remember seeing the 18 cops walking down there. There was a police van there, 19 too, I know when I got there. 20 Q: This would be some kind of portable 21 lights, if we could -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- just stay with the lights -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- for a moment? A floodlight type
1561 of -- 2 A: I think so. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I can't remember, it was so long ago. 5 Q: As they're coming up the road, at 6 least, you're able to -- to determine that there's a fair 7 number of them, that they're spread across the road, that 8 they are standing shield to shield and marching toward 9 you? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And can you recall for us where the 12 lights were; whether they were behind this group of 13 individuals or in front of or beside? 14 A: I thought they were already on the 15 road, I thought, right here. I thought there was some 16 lights up here. I'm not sure. I think that's where the 17 -- where there were some. 18 Q: So you recall some lights being there 19 at some point? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps you might just put a - 22 - the next number on there. Is that an 8? 23 A: Around here some place, I think. I'm 24 not sure. 25 Q: Okay. But in any event, there was a
1571 -- there was a light somewhere -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- that allowed you to make those -- 4 A: There was a couple -- 5 Q: -- observations. 6 A: Yeah. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Worme, I 11 know we said we'd go to 12:30, but would you like to stop 12 now? 13 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm happy to continue, 14 Mr. Commissioner. 15 THE WITNESS: I'd like to stop. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, you've 17 had a long morning. Why don't we take the break now 18 then. That's fine. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: All right, thank you, 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 22 the lunch break now. 23 THE WITNESS: All right. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 25 adjourned until 1:30.
1581 --- Upon recessing at 12:11 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I see, Mr. 7 Commissioner, that our witness is ready to go. I am 8 loathed to commence. I note that the Counsel for the 9 OPPA is not present, and I don't know what your wish is, 10 Commissioner, but it strikes me that we ought to provide 11 them an opportunity to be here. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're still 16 on your Examination-in-Chief? 17 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would just 19 carry on. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm certainly prepared 21 to do so, Commissioner, if that's -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would just 23 carry on. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Thank you. 25
1591 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Mr. George, just before the break, I 3 was asking you about the events now that, where you 4 arrived at the Park, and you make certain observations 5 about police coming down East Parkway Drive -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- towards the Park, and I understood 8 you to say that they were dressed in riot gear. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Do you -- do you recall 11 incidentally, Mr. George, that you had given a statement 12 to the SIU, Special Investigations Unit, on February the 13 14th of 1996? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: A Mr. Kennedy and a Mr. Allen, I 16 believe were questioning you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And for the benefit of counsel, it's 19 Document 1002462, and Mr. Commissioner you will find that 20 at Tab 2 of your Document. And I just wanted to -- to 21 see if you might be able to clarify -- 22 A: What page was it? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Mr. 24 Roland is here now, do you want to wait for him to sit 25 down? I know you had some discussions with Mr. Roland --
1601 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- over the 3 break. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: And -- and that's why 5 I was hoping that, you know, we could pause for a moment. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll wait 7 for you to sit down, Mr. Roland. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. You 12 were dealing with the SIU statement, 1002462. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: That's correct, Mr. Commissioner, and 16 it is a statement that bears the date, February 14 of 17 1996, and it's a statement that you would have given, Mr. 18 George, to a Mr. Kennedy and a Mr. Allen? 19 You've had that -- an opportunity to 20 review that document before; you recall that? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And you recall giving that statement, 23 do you, in 1996? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And I just wanted to --
1611 to get some clarification, if I may, from you Mr. George. 2 It strikes me that this morning, in your testimony about 3 the events that we are now arriving at, did you say this 4 morning, that you were there earlier in the day, or that 5 you had just arrived at that point? 6 A: I was -- I was there earlier that 7 day, yeah. 8 Q: And if you go to the bottom of page 1 9 of that statement, the question was put to you by Mr. 10 Allen; 11 "Q: Yeah, just go ahead and tell me 12 whatever happened that you remember." 13 And your answer is: 14 "A: Ah, well, well, I come up here and 15 then I was going back down there. When 16 we got there, as you know, those -- we 17 went down to the beach and there was a 18 riot. Riot people were coming down, 19 riot gear on, the police." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: "Q: Hmm hmm. Carry on." 22 And he tells you to carry on then you -- 23 you in fact go on to -- to discuss that and I just wanted 24 to get a sense from you, Mr. George, I gather from 25 reading that, that you had just arrived at the Park at
1621 that moment? 2 A: That minute? 3 Q: Well, just at the moment when you, 4 and again, I want you to -- to tell me, did you just 5 arrive at the Park at the area where you made the 6 observation about the riot police -- 7 A: Not too long before that, yeah. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Because they were coming down the 10 road just after I got there. 11 Q: Just after you got there? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I think, it's been so long. 15 Q: And I appreciate it's difficult to 16 recall this. The other question I wanted to get some 17 clarification, Mr. George, was whether or not you were 18 there earlier that day, if you can recall? 19 A: Yes, I was. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: You were there earlier that day? 24 A: Yes. 25
1631 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And if we turn to Page 12, Mr. 4 George, and if we go down to the -- your third response. 5 The question was put to you: 6 "Okay, now when the police first came 7 down there, down the road, as they're 8 marching, what did -- what's the first 9 thing that they did?" 10 And your answer: 11 "I wasn't there when they, like, the 12 very first time when they first got 13 there. I was -- that's when I was just 14 getting there." 15 Right? Now I'm just trying to get a sense 16 from what you've told us earlier, and what you had told 17 the Special Investigation Unit, in February of 1996, if 18 you can recall for us today, sir, when did you arrive on 19 the scene and what was it that you seen when you got 20 there? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: What I -- what I remember is there -- 25 they were coming down -- they were coming down the road
1641 aft -- just after we got there. Because I got up there 2 and they were just coming down the road then. 3 Q: All right. And when you say "when 4 you got there" -- 5 A: Down to the Park. 6 Q: And I guess I'm trying to understand 7 how it was that -- or where were you earlier? You've 8 mentioned that you were in the Park earlier that day. 9 A: Yeah. But I went up to the Camp a 10 few times. I went back and forth all day. 11 Q: All right. And the reason for going 12 back and forth all day, was -- was there a particular 13 reason? 14 A: No reason. 15 Q: I know you've already told us you 16 went back once to get something to eat. 17 A: No reason particularly. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: But in any event, so you arrived 22 there and you see the police coming and I wonder if you 23 just might take it from there and tell us what you 24 recall? 25
1651 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I can't remember too much. I just 4 remember -- I just remember they came to the fence and 5 backed up a couple of times. 6 Q: And when -- 7 A: It was all blurry. I can't really 8 remember that good. 9 Q: And I appreciate it's difficult and I 10 know that I'm asking a lot of you, Mr. George, but I am - 11 - I am hopeful that you are able to -- you know, to 12 provide us with some -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- answers on this. 15 A: Because they were -- they were 16 yelling or something. I can't really -- somebody reached 17 over and sprayed some pepper spray at us during this 18 time. It's all confusing, because it's -- it seems like 19 it all blends together. It was all blurry, it happened 20 so fast. 21 Q: And do you recall what it was, first 22 of all, that they were yelling? Let me ask, who was 23 doing the yelling? 24 A: I can't remember. Mostly the -- the 25 cops, I think. Probably both sides.
1661 Q: All right. And do you recall what 2 was being said as yelling was happening from both sides? 3 A: No, I can't remember. I don't 4 remember what was said. 5 Q: All right. And you seem to recall 6 that at some point there was some pepper spray -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- used, and who was -- who was 9 spraying this? 10 A: The cops. 11 Q: And did you get any on you? 12 A: I thought I did, but it never -- 13 didn't sting or nothing, so I don't know. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Mr. George, at that same document 18 that I had referred you to, at Tab 2, that is the SIU 19 statement. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: That is Document 1002462, the 22 statement of February 14 of 1996, and at page 2 of that 23 document, after you had given the response on the 24 previous page, which I have read into the record for you, 25 you were asked to carry on and your response was:
1671 "Ah, they -- they come to the fence and 2 they told us to leave and they backed 3 up." 4 Does that help you at all, sir, in 5 recalling what it was, if anything, that was said? 6 A: No, it doesn't. 7 Q: And if I can refer you to the 8 document at Tab 3, which is your testimony of April 3rd, 9 1995 at the trial of R. and Deane, it's Document Number 10 1005292 and at page 128 of that document -- first of all 11 do you -- do you recall giving that testimony? 12 A: No. 13 Q: You testified at the trial of Kenneth 14 Deane on April 3rd of 1997 -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- in Sarnia? You don't recall 17 giving that testimony? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. I won't go there. So 20 what happens after you see the police coming down in the 21 manner that you've described for us, Mr. George, what 22 happens after that? 23 A: I can't -- I just remember they came 24 back up -- back -- backwards and came up a couple of 25 times and at one (1) point the -- the dogs went out there
1681 and the cops started beating it up. 2 Q: And can you describe that? Did you 3 see it? 4 A: Yeah, the dogs were -- they were 5 hitting the dogs with those batons. 6 Q: Okay. Do you know why that happened? 7 A: I don't know, it's because he was out 8 there. 9 Q: Do you know -- do you know whose dog 10 it was? 11 A: I can't remember. 12 Q: And what happens after you -- you 13 observe this? 14 A: I think that's when we went out there 15 to try to save that -- because they were fighting over 16 that -- that dog and beating that dog up or something. I 17 don't know, I can't remember. I think that's where the 18 fighting started. They started fighting after that. 19 Q: Okay. As -- you've described the -- 20 the police as coming toward -- am I right in assuming it 21 was toward the fence? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then they would back up? 24 A: Yes. Then they'd come forward again. 25 Q: And how many times did that happen in
1691 your recollection? 2 A: Two (2) or three (3) times. 3 Q: And as they were doing this are they 4 saying anything or doing anything? 5 A: I don't know what they were saying. 6 They were saying something, I don't know what. 7 Q: Were they doing anything besides -- 8 A: They were hitting their shields. 9 Q: Sorry? 10 A: They were hitting their shields with 11 their -- they had -- I think it was their steel batons 12 they were hitting it with. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Somebody would show them something 15 and they'd go up, then they'd move backwards and they'd 16 move up. 17 Q: And in terms of the two (2) or three 18 (3) times that they came up to the fence and moved back, 19 do you know when the dog went out as you've described it? 20 A: I can't remember. I just remember he 21 was -- the dog went out there and then they started 22 beating the dog up; that's when we tried to save the dog 23 and that's when we got in a fight. 24 Q: Is it your view today that the reason 25 people went out was to save the dog?
1701 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And during the two (2) or 3 three (3) times that the police came up to the fence was 4 there any interaction as between the people inside the 5 Park and the police officers? 6 A: I can't remember. I remember the 7 police were right up there yelling at us. 8 Q: Okay. Aside from the pepper spray 9 that you've described for us earlier, you don't recall 10 today whether there was any interaction between? 11 A: It happened so fast I can't -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I can't remember. 14 Q: Then you say that at -- at that 15 point, that is when the dog goes out and is being beaten, 16 what happens? 17 A: I think that's when everybody started 18 fighting. We got -- I think we got into a couple of 19 fights. We fought with them, then they backed up and 20 they come up and then we'd start fighting again, I think. 21 I can't -- and one (1) of those times, that's when they 22 got Slippery. 23 Q: All right. Okay, tell us about that. 24 A: They started -- I can't really 25 remember. I think they were -- they were beating him up,
1711 too. Just like -- just like that dog. They were 2 treating him like that dog they were beating up. 3 Q: Okay, and...? 4 A: That's -- after that, that's when the 5 bus -- the bus went out there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: The bus -- 8 Q: What happens when the bus goes out 9 there? 10 A: Well, it just went out there and 11 everybody followed it out, tried to save Slippery. 12 Q: And when you say, Everybody, you've 13 told us that there were -- was it fifteen (15) or twenty 14 (20) people that you -- 15 A: I don't know exactly how many but 16 around that amount. 17 Q: Okay, did everybody follow the bus as 18 far as you know? 19 A: Not everybody. 20 Q: All right. How many people followed 21 the bus? 22 A: Well, there was a few women there 23 that never went out there. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I don't remember any of the women
1721 walking out there. 2 Q: And referring to the map, or the 3 diagram P-161, where did the bus come from and where did 4 it go? 5 A: Came from around -- that Number 6 is 6 in there -- went over toward Number 7. 7 Q: All right, could you maybe draw a 8 line for the -- the route that the bus took and where it 9 would have stopped, to the best of your knowledge? 10 A: I believe it came here. I thought it 11 come this way, I don't know, around here some place. 12 Q: All right. And what were the police 13 doing when the bus came out and went along that line that 14 you've drawn? Perhaps you might put a number -- a Number 15 9 beside that line, please, as to where the bus would 16 have stopped in your recollection. 17 A: Well, it went up there and it backed 18 up and it stopped. I think it stopped back over here, 19 near Number 6 again. 20 Q: Okay. But let's just -- let's just 21 pause for a moment. So the bus comes out of the Park. 22 Did you see it actually enter -- exiting the Park? 23 A: I was behind it. Yes. 24 Q: All right, and did you see whether it 25 had any difficulty either in manoeuvring out of the Park
1731 or were there any objects blocking it, to your knowledge? 2 A: I think it pushed the garbage -- that 3 garbage bin out of the way. 4 Q: Okay. Go ahead, and -- 5 A: And just drove by there and backed 6 up. 7 Q: And can you tell us how fast it was 8 going, for example? Could you tell us who was -- 9 A: It just seemed like it -- 10 Q: -- operating the vehicle? 11 A: I don't know who was operating it. I 12 wasn't -- it wasn't moving very fast. I didn't think it 13 was. 14 Q: Okay, now you say you were behind it? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what are you doing? 17 A: I was -- went -- we started fighting 18 over here in this -- threw a couple of sticks at the 19 cops. 20 Q: Okay, you threw a couple of sticks at 21 the cops? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: After you followed the bus out? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Go ahead.
1741 A: That's all I can remember. Then we 2 come back over here and that's when Dudley was shot. 3 They started shooting right after I threw a stick and I 4 hit -- I think I hit a cop in the mask and broke it and I 5 threw another Military and they start shooting. 6 And I was going to throw a third one, I 7 just dropped it and started leaving. Stood there, at 8 first, and just looked around. 9 Q: Okay, why did you stand there at 10 first and just look around? 11 A: They were shooting at me. I just -- 12 I don't know, just shock I guess, I don't know. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Just stopped and seemed like 15 everything got clear after that. I just, Holy shit, I 16 got to get out of here. 17 Q: Okay. Now I want to -- I want to get 18 to that point when everything gets clear, but before 19 that, you say the bus is going out, you're behind it -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Can you tell us how fast it was going 22 beyond what you've already told us; that is say, not very 23 fast? Could you estimate -- 24 A: Well, I was running behind it and it 25 wasn't too far in front of me.
1751 Q: I'm sorry? You were? 2 A: I was running behind it and it wasn't 3 too far in front of me. 4 Q: So the bus was -- 5 A: Couldn't -- 6 Q: -- travelling -- 7 A: -- be going that fast -- 8 Q: at a running -- at a running pace, 9 is -- 10 A: Yeah, it must have been. 11 Q: -- pace, is that what you're telling 12 us? 13 A: I can't run that fast so it couldn't 14 have been going that fast. 15 Q: Okay. And did you catch the bus up? 16 A: No. The bus came over this way and I 17 was -- I don't know what I was doing here someplace -- I 18 was over there someplace. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's a 20 microphone over here, Mr. George, just take it. 21 THE WITNESS: I was right here. I was 22 right here some place. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: You might -- may have 24 to turn it on. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The mike's
1761 not on. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sure it's not on. 3 THE WITNESS: How does it work? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: It's on now, thank you, 5 Mr. George. 6 THE WITNESS: I was right here some 7 place. I think -- 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Now you're indicating what -- what 11 has been described as the tarmac area -- 12 A: Yeah, as they come up -- I come up 13 here, I was standing here some place when I thrown those 14 two (2) sticks. 15 Q: And the bus had continued on ahead of 16 you? 17 A: Yeah, the bus was up here already. 18 Q: And you've marked where you thought 19 it stopped in and around the second driveway off of -- 20 north off of East Parkway? 21 A: Yeah, I think so. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Yeah, I think that's where -- around 24 where it was. 25 Q: All right. So the bus then begins
1771 backing up, does it? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Carry on. 4 A: By the time it started backing up, 5 that's when they were already shooting, the cops were 6 shooting. So I start walking back toward that sandpile. 7 Q: Okay. Tell us about what you mean by 8 the cops started shooting. Where was the gunfire coming 9 from? 10 A: Where all the cops were standing. 11 Q: And where were they standing, Mr. 12 George? 13 A: There was a police van up over here 14 someplace, and, I don't know exactly. I don't know 15 exactly where it was, but there was a police van out 16 there, there was a bunch of cops standing around there. 17 Q: Did the bus drive past the police 18 van? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you've indicated somewhere to the 21 -- that the police van, as you were pointing, somewhere 22 to the west of that second intersection north -- second 23 driveway, rather, north off of East Parkway? 24 And I see you've marked that now with a 25 Number 10?
1781 A: Yeah, I think it's around there, I'm 2 not exactly -- exactly sure where it was. 3 Q: Fair enough. And the gunfire was 4 coming from officers that you say were standing around 5 there? 6 A: Yeah, because it -- the -- there was, 7 like, that car was around there too, and they were 8 shooting from there and they were shooting from on top 9 the hill over there. 10 Q: Okay. We'll come to that in a 11 moment. You've just mentioned, now, a car. Where -- 12 where did the car come from? 13 A: It was behind the bus. 14 Q: And you had told us that you were 15 behind the bus? 16 A: Well, I was behind the car, it must 17 have been. Because the car was -- the bus went out first 18 and then the car went out. 19 Q: All right. So you -- 20 A: I don't know exactly where -- I was 21 behind the bus someplace, maybe the car went -- went by 22 me, I can't remember. It happened so fast, it's -- 23 Q: Okay. As the bus is coming back, did 24 you see where the car was? 25 A: It was near the police van.
1791 Q: And did you -- do you know what 2 happened to the police that you've described, were around 3 that, as either the bus or the car was coming toward 4 them? 5 A: I don't know. I seen them jumping 6 out of the way. 7 Q: Okay. Tell us about that. 8 A: Well, I just seen them jumping out of 9 the way. The bus was going toward them, they were 10 jumping out the way. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: But I don't know what there was -- 13 there weren't -- I don't know what they did with Slippery 14 by then. 15 Q: And by Slippery, you mean Bernard? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And I take it that he was 18 -- he was with them. When you say that you don't know -- 19 A: The police must of had him -- 20 Q: -- what they did with -- 21 A: -- by then. I don't know where he 22 went to, I... 23 Q: Okay. Let's -- let's just back up a 24 bit then. I'm -- I'm not sure that I'm -- that I'm quite 25 understanding this clearly, Mr. George, and that's --
1801 that's my -- my mistake. 2 You say the dog went out first, -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- it's being beat up. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: And then Bernard goes out? Or was -- 7 did he go out when everybody else did -- 8 A: I thought we all went out. 9 Q: -- to save the dog? 10 A: Yeah, I think so. 11 Q: Okay. And then is it your evidence 12 that he somehow ended up, I think you put it, being 13 treated in the same way? 14 A: Yeah. He -- they were kicking him, 15 hitting him with their -- their batons. 16 Q: And it's at that point that you 17 observed the bus coming out? 18 A: Yes, I think so. 19 Q: Okay. Well, I need a -- I need -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- to get it from you, actually. 22 A: Yes. I drove -- they went out there 23 and I was right behind them, yeah. 24 Q: Okay. You were behind the bus and 25 the car?
1811 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And you see -- 3 A: I think that -- I -- like, I can't 4 really remember where it happened, but I remember the car 5 went past me at one (1) point, so... 6 Q: All right. And then you see police 7 officers jumping out of the way? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And with respect to the map, 10 can you tell us where they, or the diagram, can you tell 11 us where the police were jumping out of the way? 12 A: No, I can't. It was along here, I 13 guess. I can't really -- there -- that just happened. I 14 just don't know. I can't remember. 15 Q: All right. What can you tell us that 16 you do recall, as -- as in terms of what happens next, 17 Mr. George? 18 A: I just remember I was -- after they 19 started shooting, I started backing up and I went out 20 toward where -- where the Park was. I was walking toward 21 the Park and I seen Dudley and somebody else coming this 22 other way, so I said -- I think I said, Let's -- they're 23 shooting, let's -- let's go. 24 And he said, What about everybody else and 25 we turned around and they were all coming and so he said,
1821 We're coming. So I started leaving, then he said, I'm 2 shot, I think they hit me. I think they got me. 3 Q: Okay. And where were -- where you in 4 relation to Dudley when he said that? 5 A: He was behind me. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: He was right -- he was coming this 8 way and I met him like that I started going out. 9 Q: Okay. Can you -- can you indicate on 10 the diagram -- 11 A: I don't -- I don't know exactly where 12 I was. 13 Q: All right. What does he do after he 14 says this? 15 A: He fell over. 16 Q: And can you -- can you tell us in 17 terms of the diagram again, where it was that he would 18 have fell over? 19 A: I don't know. In here some place. 20 Q: Okay. Would you be good enough 21 simply to -- to make a mark on that map again, please? I 22 think we're up to number -- 23 A: (INDICATING) 24 THE REGISTRAR: 11. 25
1831 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: 11? 3 A: I'm not exactly where -- I'm not 4 exactly sure exactly where it was. 5 Q: But that's your best estimate -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- for us at this moment? Did you 8 actually see the weapons being discharged, Mr. George? 9 Did you see, for example, muzzle flash. 10 A: They had their hand stuck out like 11 this, that's all I could see and hear things. 12 Q: And how many police officers did you 13 observe with their hands stuck out like that, as you've 14 indicated? 15 A: All of them. All of ones I seen 16 were -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- they -- they were all shooting. 19 Q: -- in terms of numbers, Mr. George, 20 how many would that be? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: How many is all of them, the ones 23 that you've seen? 24 A: All the cops I seen. I don't know 25 how many there was.
1841 Q: Okay. 2 A: I know there was a bunch of cops on 3 the road, looked like they were all shooting. 4 Q: Were you struck -- 5 A: I could -- I could feel things 6 hitting me in the legs. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: And hear -- it sounded like something 9 whistling by my head, a whole bunch of whistling sounds. 10 Q: And what -- what were those whistling 11 sounds? 12 A: I don't know, maybe they were 13 bullets, that's what I thought they were. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: It sounded like a whining. 16 Q: Can you describe the gunfire, whether 17 in terms of what you've seen or what you heard? 18 A: To me it sound -- to me it sounded 19 like they opened -- like they -- like a rapid fire and a 20 pause and a rapid fire again. It seemed like they 21 reloaded a couple of times or paused or something. 22 Q: And did you ever have any estimate as 23 to how many rounds were fired? 24 A: I don't know, must have been a 25 hundred (100) or two (2).
1851 Q: Okay. Had you begin -- had you 2 begun going toward the Park by the time the gunfire had 3 commenced? 4 A: Yes. When -- what do you mean, when 5 it started? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: I was already -- I was on the road. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: On the pavement. 10 Q: And once the gunfire started -- 11 A: Then I started leaving, going toward 12 -- back toward the Park. 13 Q: Where was the -- the bus at that 14 point when you began heading to the Park? 15 A: Where I have that Number 9 on there, 16 around that area, I think. 17 Q: All right. Did the bus go back into 18 the Park? 19 A: I think so, I can't remember. 20 Q: Were you in the Park before the bus 21 if you can recall? 22 A: I can't remember. I just remember 23 grabbing Dudley and turned him over and started dragging 24 him toward the Park. I grabbed his arms like that and I 25 was pulling him. Another guy that was standing there, I
1861 told him to grab his -- grab his legs. 2 Q: And who was that guy? 3 A: I'm -- I thought it was Robert, I'm 4 not sure. Robert Isaacs is who I thought it was. 5 Q: Okay. And what was it that you had 6 recalled Dudley George to say? 7 A: To me it sounded like he said, They 8 got me. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Or, I think they got me or something 11 like that. 12 Q: And what did you do with Dudley 13 George after you -- 14 A: We put him in the OPP car -- "OPP 15 Who" car and they -- they took off with. 16 Q: Where was the "OPP Who" car located? 17 A: Somebody pulled up with it. We threw 18 him in the back of the car. 19 Q: And would that be in the location 20 that you've marked on the map? 21 A: Near that six (6). 22 Q: I wonder if you would just, with the 23 laser pointer, indicate where that Number 6 is, so we 24 might see that. 25 A: (INDICATING)
1871 Q: So you've indicated now on the inside 2 of the Park, if I can put it that way -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And we've had all kinds of evidence 9 as to people who would have assisted Mr. Dudley George 10 and, in terms of one (1) of those statements, I have that 11 at Tab 1 of your document. 12 That is Inquiry Document 1002255. It is a 13 statement that was given by Gabriel Doxtator, October 14 14th of '95. You've told us that you're familiar with 15 Gabriel, that he attended with you, and in fact he was at 16 the Park at the time in question here; yes? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And at page 19 of that document, and 19 you can take it from me, Mr. George, that Gabriel 20 Doxtator states that Chuck, that is you, and Buck who 21 you've earlier identified as Buck Doxtator, assisted 22 Dudley into the car. 23 Does that accord with your recollection 24 today or is your recollection, as you've told us -- 25 A: Yeah, Buck was there. I can't -- I
1881 seen him after Dudley was shot, but I can't remember. 2 Q: Right. But your recollection, in 3 spite of what Gabriel Doxtator says, is that to the best 4 of your knowledge, it was Robert Isaac that assisted you? 5 A: He grabbed -- he grabbed his legs. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And do you know where the vehicle, 10 the "OPP Who" car went with Dudley in it -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- after they left? 13 A: They said they were going up to the 14 front to get an ambulance or something. 15 Q: Do you know who was operating the 16 "OPP Who" vehicle? 17 A: No, I don't. I can't remember. 18 Q: Before you heard Dudley utter those 19 words, or words to that effect, did you see him out in 20 the -- in the skirmish? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us whether you 23 recall if he was holding anything, carrying -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- anything?
1891 A: I don't remember him having anything 2 in his hand. 3 Q: All right. When you seen -- did you 4 see him go down? 5 A: I turned around, he fell over, yes. 6 Q: And when you turned around and saw 7 him fall over, did you see whether he had anything -- 8 A: No, he never -- 9 Q: -- in his hands or on his person? 10 A: He was holding himself like this and 11 he said, I think they got me. He fell over. 12 Q: And you're indicating by clutching 13 your hands over your chest area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And you say that you went 16 up to him at that point -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- and tell me again, what it was 19 that you did? 20 A: I turned him over and I grabbed his 21 arms and I started dragging him. 22 Q: You turned him over onto his back? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right, and did you observe what 25 it was that he had -- what he was holding?
1901 A: Bloody chest. 2 Q: All right. Can you tell us what you 3 did after that, Mr. George? 4 A: I grabbed him and started carrying 5 him to the car. 6 Q: And after you put him in the "OPP 7 Who" vehicle, and that vehicle left, can you tell us what 8 you did? 9 A: I had a cigarette, that's all I 10 remember. 11 Q: Okay. And you recall this -- you 12 recall that there was a store there in the Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you recall that that store was 15 burnt? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did you have any part of that, the 18 burning of the store, Mr. George? 19 A: Not as far as I recall. 20 Q: Okay. Did you stay at the Park after 21 that? 22 A: For a short -- short time, and went 23 back up to the Camp area. 24 Q: And the Camp, you're referring to the 25 -- what's been called the built-up area --
1911 A: The -- 2 Q: -- the barracks? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And do you know where you went 5 and where you stayed, what you did? 6 A: I can't remember. I slept some 7 place, I don't know where, if I even slept at all. 8 Q: And I take it that you would have 9 found out at some point that Dudley George had died? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you know when that was that 12 you would found this out? 13 A: By morning, anyways, I can't 14 remember. I don't -- I can't remember, it happened so 15 long ago. 16 Q: Did you also learn, Mr. George, what 17 happened to some of the other people that -- that we've 18 heard about, for example, Bernard George? 19 A: Yeah, I knew he was -- somebody said 20 he was arrested or something, so I don't know. 21 Q: And beyond that did you know what -- 22 A: Nothing. 23 Q: -- what -- what condition he was in? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Did you learn anything
1921 about Nicholas Cotrelle? 2 A: Not until the next day, I think. 3 Q: All right. And we are told that the 4 next day, Mr. George, that there were a number of people 5 that came from Kettle Point way -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- down Highway 21? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And they came to the Army Camp. Were 10 you at the Army Camp when this -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- when this happened? What can you 13 tell us about that? 14 A: Nothing, I just seen a bunch of 15 people walking down the road, coming there for support. 16 Q: We've also been made aware, Mr. 17 George, that a number of people went to the Ministry of 18 Natural Resources parking lot, which is located east down 19 East Parkway Drive. 20 First of all, do you know the location 21 that I'm referring to? 22 A: Yeah, I think so. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I think I do. 25 Q: And are you aware that there were a
1931 number of people that attended there at some point on the 2 7th of September, 1995? 3 A: Yeah, I think so. 4 Q: Were you part of that group? 5 A: Was it that -- that same day you had 6 that -- that picture? Was it that the same day? 7 Q: I believe that's so, but I need to 8 know from you -- 9 A: No, I wasn't -- I wasn't there when 10 they were there that -- when that -- you showed me that 11 picture, I wasn't there that time. 12 Q: All right. When -- were you ever 13 there? 14 A: I went there once, yes. 15 Q: And can you tell me when that was? 16 A: Right after -- the next day after the 17 shooting, I think. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Or -- yeah, the next day, I think, in 20 the morning or something. 21 Q: And what did you do there? 22 A: I was looking around. Where -- we 23 walked through the trail and I found a whole bunch of 24 beer bottles and whiskey bottles and looked inside the 25 garbage -- the garbage thing in that -- where that
1941 ambulance, and that's what was in there is a bunch of 2 whiskey bottles in the garbage there, too. 3 Q: The ambulance where? 4 A: At the -- that little -- that little 5 Parkone it was at. 6 Q: Okay. We have been told that there 7 was equipment and other items taken from those vehicles. 8 Were you aware of that, sir? 9 A: Yeah, I guess so. 10 Q: Okay. Did you take any items from 11 there? 12 A: No, I never. 13 Q: All right. Did you see others taking 14 items from there? 15 A: I never seen nobody take no items. 16 Q: But you're aware that things were 17 taken? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you know who might have taken 20 anything and if so, what -- 21 A: Not to my knowledge. 22 Q: All right. Did you stay at the MNR - 23 - pardon me, at the Army Camp after this event, Mr. 24 George? 25 A: For a short time, yes.
1951 Q: Okay. Just before we move away from 2 the MNR parking lot, you said something about going 3 through the trail there. 4 A: Yeah, there was -- we had a -- there 5 was a trial there and there was a bunch of whiskey 6 bottles and beer bottles that were there. 7 Q: Can you describe where that trail is 8 located? 9 A: I don't know exactly where, back 10 there some place. I don't know where, it was out in the 11 field. 12 Q: Is it on the north side or south side 13 of East Parkway Drive? 14 A: South side, I think. 15 Q: Okay. And who were you with when you 16 were on this trail? 17 A: A few guys, I can't remember their 18 names. 19 Q: Can't remember any of them? 20 A: I think Gabe was there. I think Buck 21 was there, I'm not sure. I can't remember, it was just 22 long ago, so it's ten (10) years ago. 23 Q: All right. So after this -- after 24 this incident, what did you do? Did you stay at the Army 25 Camp? A: For a short time, yeah.
1961 Q: Just excuse me one (1) second. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Mr. George, most of the witnesses had 6 been asked and afforded an opportunity to provide us with 7 their views as to how this incident might have been 8 avoided. Do you have anything to offer in that respect? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. George. There 11 will be others who will wish to -- to ask you questions. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: All right. Those are all my 14 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 Do you need a rest, Mr. George? Do you feel you need a 17 rest? 18 THE WITNESS: No, it's okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're okay. 20 Okay. Who wishes to cross-examine this witness? 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I'll be very brief, 22 just five (5) minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 24 Tuck-Jackson...? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Five (5) to ten
1971 (10) minutes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 3 Roland...? 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'll be under an hour. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Under an 6 hour. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I appreciate 9 you making your best estimate, I really do. Thank you. 10 Okay. Then let's begin. Ms. Esmonde...? 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 14 is Jackie Esmonde. I'm one (1) of the lawyers 15 representing the Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Now, the presence of non-Stoney Point 18 people at the Army Camp has been an issue in this 19 Inquiry. So I -- I wanted to ask you some questions 20 about -- that relate to that. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now, you've told us that you were 23 visiting Stoney Point. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that you had done so on several
1981 occasions, from 1993 to 1995. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I take it, it wasn't uncommon for 4 you to visit other reserves? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Had you gone fishing at other 7 reserves? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you were generally welcome to do 10 that? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: I understand as well that, it would 13 not be uncommon for First Nations people to support other 14 First Nations when they were involved in political 15 issues -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- is that not the case? And do you 18 feel that that is in part what you were doing when you 19 were at the Park on September 6th of 1995? 20 A: I guess so. I was -- I was just 21 visiting at first, and then I don't know what happened. 22 Q: And then you were there as a 23 supporter? 24 A: Yeah, I guess so. 25 Q: And you were welcome to do so?
1991 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And I take it, when you have visited 3 other reserves in the past, it wouldn't be your practice 4 to ask permission to do so from a Band Council? 5 A: What does a Band Council have to do 6 anything with the reserves? 7 Q: Right. So you could go and express 8 your support and visit -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and you didn't need permission to 11 do so? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now earlier you -- you described to 14 us, of the police officer who you heard, make a threat to 15 Dudley George. And you described him as blonde and short 16 and stocky. 17 A: Yeah, I thought that was what -- 18 might have been him, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And do you recall in your 20 interview with the Special Investigations Unit, you did 21 describe this man? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you told them that you could 24 recognize this officer if you saw them -- saw him again. 25 A: At the time I could have.
2001 Q: At the time you could have, in 1995? 2 And were you ever shown any pictures of any police 3 officers to try to identify the individual? 4 A: No. 5 Q: I take it from your answer that you 6 don't feel you could recognize that officer today? 7 A: I don't know, I might -- I don't 8 know, hard to say. 9 Q: It has been almost ten (10) years, as 10 you've noted. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And Mr. Worme had asked you, 13 he took you to a -- a point in your SIU interview and he 14 quoted to you where you had said that you heard the 15 police telling you to leave the Park -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- and you said that you couldn't 18 remember that today? 19 A: No, I don't remember it. 20 Q: Do -- can you recall today if you had 21 the impression at the time that the police wanted you to 22 leave the Park or that they were there to evict the 23 people from the Park? 24 A: I guess so. 25 Q: You --
2011 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: I guess so. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you, sir, those are my 5 questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 12 Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 afternoon. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 17 Q: Sir, my name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson, 18 I'm going to be asking you some questions on behalf of 19 the OPP this afternoon. 20 Sir, you have six (6) convictions for 21 crimes of dishonesty, correct? 22 A: I don't know, I guess so. 23 Q: Well, we can go through them together 24 again, but I added them up and I'm going to suggest to 25 you that you have six (6) convictions for crimes of
2021 dishonesty. 2 A: What's dishonesty? 3 Q: Doing something that's not truthful, 4 like theft, for example. 5 A: Oh, I never -- I never lied when I 6 got caught. 7 Q: I'm sorry? 8 A: I said I never lied when I got 9 caught. 10 Q: No, I understand. Are you suggesting 11 that by stealing something, you're not acting in a manner 12 that's dishonest? 13 A: Well, you're -- you're making it 14 sound like I'm lying when I do that. 15 Q: I'm suggesting to you that when you 16 steal something, that's a act of dishonesty. 17 A: I guess so, if -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- that's the way you see it. 20 Q: You've claimed today, sir, that on 21 September the 7th, when you were walking in the area near 22 the MNR parking lot, west on East Parkway Drive -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- you claimed that you saw some 25 whiskey bottles --
2031 A: No, I did see them. 2 Q: Let me finish, sir. You claimed that 3 you saw some whiskey bottles in a garbage can? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And they weren't on the ground, I 6 gather, from your evidence, sir -- 7 A: Yes, there was. 8 Q: So they were both on the ground and 9 in a garbage can, is that -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- your evidence now, sir? 12 A: I said that earlier, too. 13 Q: I may have not heard you. I was 14 having difficulty hearing some of your evidence, sir. 15 And is it your evidence, sir, that seeing 16 these empty alcohol bottles, I trust they were empty, is 17 that your evidence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I trust that this concerned you? 20 A: Well, I thought that all the police 21 officers were drunk. 22 Q: Pardon? 23 A: I thought all the police officers 24 were drunk. 25 Q: And I trust that you thought that
2041 because of how they smelled on the night of September the 2 6th? 3 A: Well, you can't tell if it's liquor, 4 cologne, it -- sometimes it's -- you smell it. 5 Q: Well, let me ask you this, sir. What 6 led you to believe that the officers on the night of 7 September the 6th, were intoxicated? 8 A: Well, there was bottles in that -- 9 that thing where they -- that ambulance thing. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: There was a whiskey bottle in the 12 ambulance thing, too. 13 Q: There were whiskey bottles in the 14 ambulance -- 15 A: Small one. 16 Q: -- trailer? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. So now, as I understand 19 your evidence, there were whiskey bottles in the area 20 outside of the trailer in a garbage can -- 21 A: No. I said it was in the trailer 22 where the garbage can was. 23 Q: I apologize. I thought you said 24 earlier that they were on a trail. 25 A: There was some there, too.
2051 Q: All right. So, just to be clear 2 then, you saw empty liquor bottles in a garbage can 3 inside of a trailer? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right, and we've heard evidence 6 about a trailer that had St. John's Ambulance symbols on 7 the side of it. Is that what you're talking about? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay, good. Now, getting back to my 10 original question, I gather you were concerned by finding 11 these empty liquor bottles in this mobile command centre, 12 as it appeared to be? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Because you were concerned, I gather, 15 that the officers must have been intoxicated on the night 16 Dudley George was shot? 17 A: I don't know, I can't say what they 18 were doing. 19 Q: Didn't you just tell us a moment ago, 20 sir, that you were concerned that they were intoxicated? 21 A: No, I never said that, I said that 22 there was liquor bottles in there and there was liquor 23 bottles out there. And you don't know what -- because 24 when they were close you could smell, like, I just smell 25 other people's cologne that smelled like liquor, it
2061 smells like alcohol -- that cologne and stuff, so you don 2 -- I don't know. 3 Q: So you smelled cologne -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- on the night of the 6th? Yes? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. And you thought that was, 8 perhaps, masking the smell of alcohol? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: Okay. In any event, was there 11 something by their behaviour or the actions that led you 12 to believe that they were intoxicated on the night of the 13 6th? 14 A: I have no idea. 15 Q: All right. But in any event, when 16 you discovered these empty liquor bottles in the St. 17 John's Ambulance trailer, I assume that you knew that the 18 police had actually been in that trailer? 19 A: No, I wasn't there. I -- I don't 20 know. 21 Q: You didn't know that? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Who did you think had been in that 24 trailer, sir? 25 A: I have no idea.
2071 Q: You have no idea, but finding these 2 liquor bottles was a matter of interest for you? 3 A: I guess so. Whoever was there was 4 drinking. 5 Q: Pardon? 6 A: Whoever was there was drinking at one 7 (1) time or another unless they just poured it outside. 8 I don't know. 9 Q: All right. My Friend Mr. Worme has 10 already taken you to the statement that you provided to 11 the SIU officers on February the 14th, 1996. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: It's at Tab 2 of the materials in 14 front of you, would you turn to it please? 15 You'd agree with me, sir, that on that day 16 you spoke with the officers for approximately twenty-five 17 (25) minutes? 18 A: I guess so, I don't know how long it 19 was. 20 Q: Well, you'll see at the first page 21 that the interview begins at 1:48 p.m. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you'll see at the last page that 24 it concludes at 2:14 p.m. 25 A: Yes.
2081 Q: So that's about twenty-five (25) 2 minutes. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if you turn to the first page of 5 that transcript, of that statement, you'd agree with me 6 you were being taped, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you'll agree with me at the first 9 page of that transcript about halfway down, Officer Allen 10 says: 11 "Okay, Chuck, is that we believe that 12 you have some information relating to 13 an incident that occurred here outside 14 of the Ipperwash Provincial Park on 15 September the 6th, 1995; is that 16 correct?" 17 And you reply, "Yes." 18 You're then asked: 19 "Can you just, in your own words, tell 20 me what you know about that incident." 21 You then say: 22 "Like, what happened?" 23 The officer goes on and says: 24 "Yup, just go ahead and tell me 25 whatever happened that you remember."
2091 Do you recall that exchange -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- with officer Allen? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: He's -- he's a police officer? 7 Q: You're not going to suggest, sir, 8 that you didn't know at the time that you were speaking 9 with police officers? 10 A: He told me he wasn't a police 11 officer. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: He told me he wasn't a police 14 officer. They both did. 15 Q: Well, that's curious, sir, because if 16 you look at the very top of the transcript it says: 17 "Today is February the 14th, 1996. The 18 time now is 1:48 in the afternoon. I'm 19 sitting in a car in the Camp Ipperwash 20 Base with Jim Kennedy who is also an 21 investigator with Special 22 Investigations Unit and Charles 23 George." 24 A: Yes. I asked him this, if he was a 25 police officer and they both said, No.
2101 Q: So, you're claiming that these men 2 represented to you that they were not police officers. 3 A: That's what they told me. 4 Q: Okay. Well, we -- we'll ask them 5 when they come to testify -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- what they said to you. The very 8 last page of the transcript, sir, you'll see at page 18. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: About six (6) lines up from the 11 bottom, Officer Allen, he's about to finish off the 12 interview and then he says to you: 13 "Do you have something else, Chuck, you 14 want to say?" 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you recall being asked that 18 question? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So it would appear that at the very 21 end of the interview, the officer gave you an additional 22 opportunity to add something that perhaps you had 23 forgotten before. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Right. You'd agree with me, sir,
2111 that at no time during this twenty-five (25) minute 2 interview, do you mention anything about finding liquor 3 bottles in the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 4 A: No, I never. 5 Q: No. You could have? Right? If it 6 had occurred, you could have mentioned it. 7 A: I guess so. 8 Q: Right. You then testified, sir, in 9 the Trial of the Queen and Ken Deane, on April the 3rd, 10 1997; I appreciate at this time you have no memory of 11 that. 12 A: No. 13 Q: Would you have any reason to disagree 14 with me, sir, if I suggested that at no time during your 15 evidence, did you mention anything about finding liquor 16 bottles in that mobile trailer? 17 A: No, I never. 18 Q: No, you didn't. 19 A: I guess not. Not when I read this, I 20 never said nothing, I guess. 21 Q: Pardon. 22 A: I read it and I don't say that, I see 23 that I said anything. 24 Q: Good. Thank you. And then I 25 understand, sir, that you met yet again, with the SIU on
2121 September the 26th, 1997. You are going to see a 2 transcript of that interview at Tab 5 of your materials. 3 A: Yes. I don't remember this, either. 4 Q: You don't remember this interview? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Again, sir, this is a much shorter 7 interview, it only lasts approximately ten (10) minutes. 8 It commences at 1:25 and you will see at the very end it 9 concludes at 1:35 p.m.; correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And again, with an opportunity to 12 speak with these two (2) individuals, you'll agree with 13 me that you did not mention anything to them about liquor 14 bottles? 15 A: I guess so. 16 Q: No, you didn't. When you went into 17 the St. John's mobile trailer and you saw the liquor 18 bottles as you claim, in the garbage can, were you with 19 anybody else in the trailer? 20 A: There was somebody else there, but I 21 can't remember who it was. 22 Q: A woman, perhaps? 23 A: I don't know. I thought it was a 24 guy. 25 Q: Does the name Kevin Simon sound
2131 familiar? 2 A: I know him. I don't remember if he 3 was there or not. 4 Q: Okay. Do you know a Tina George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you recall if she was there at the 7 trailer with you? 8 A: I can't remember. 9 Q: In an effort to be fair with you, 10 sir, I need to let you know that we heard from Tina 11 George. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: She testified that she had seen one 14 (1) or two (2) liquor bottles in the bush area outside of 15 the trailer. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But she never mentioned anything 18 about seeing bottles inside the trailer, even though she 19 had gone in it. Does that assist you in refreshing your 20 recollection as to what you may have seen in that 21 trailer? 22 A: I know I seen those, they were small, 23 small liquor bottles, plastic ones, I think. 24 Q: You didn't take a picture of them? 25 A: I thought somebody did, but I don't
2141 know. 2 Q: You think someone took a picture? 3 A: I thought somebody did, but I'm not 4 sure. 5 Q: Well, I'm sure if that photo exists, 6 then we'll see it. And again, I want to be fair to you, 7 we've heard from Kevin Simon, -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- and my recollection of his 10 evidence is that he too went into that trailer. But at 11 no time did he mention before this Inquiry, that he had 12 seen any liquor bottles inside of it. 13 A: We can't testify what he seen. 14 Q: I'm suggesting to you, sir, that this 15 is something that you're making up. 16 A: You can suggest whatever you want. 17 I'm just telling the truth, like I was told to. 18 Q: Thank you, sir. Those are my 19 questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 Mr. Roland. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 25 is Ian Roland. I act for the Ontario Provincial Police
2151 Association. 2 Let me start by asking you whether you are 3 a Member of the Oneida Warrior Society? 4 A: What's that? 5 Q: Sorry? 6 A: What's that? 7 Q: You don't know what it is? 8 A: Not really. 9 Q: So -- since you don't know what it 10 is, I take it you're not a member? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No. 13 A: I -- 14 Q: I noticed that you're wearing a -- 15 A: (ONEIDA LANGUAGE SPOKEN), I'm part 16 of. 17 Q: I'm sorry? 18 A: (ONEIDA LANGUAGE SPOKEN) 19 Q: I'm sorry, I don't understand. 20 A: That's not my fault. 21 Q: Can you explain that to me? 22 A: It's Oneida. 23 Q: I see, and what does it mean? 24 A: It's what we are, we're men. We're 25 supposed to take care of our family, our kids, our women,
2161 our children, our land. 2 Q: Well, do you know -- but you've never 3 heard of an Oneida Warrior Society? 4 A: I don't know what that is. 5 Q: Fine. I -- I noticed that on the 6 front of your jersey -- sweatshirt, there's something 7 called "Homeland Security" -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And there appears to be figures on if 10 of persons holding firearms, is that it? 11 A: It's Geronimo. 12 Q: I see, and it -- and what's the 13 wording on the bottom? 14 A: It says, "Fighting Terrorism Since 15 1492". 16 Q: I see. And what -- what is Homeland 17 Security? What does that represent? 18 A: I don't know, it's a shirt. 19 Q: Do you -- well, you're wearing it. I 20 thought maybe you might have some idea what it means. 21 A: I never made it. 22 Q: I see. So, although it -- you're 23 wearing it on your shirt, you have no idea what it means? 24 A: I'm not -- I never made it. 25 Q: I'm sorry?
2171 A: Homeland Security. Like, defending 2 our country forever, our men. 3 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us that you 4 came on September the 5th to Stoney Point from the Oneida 5 reserve and you were accompanied by a number of others, 6 you've told us, those being Buck Doxtator, Gabe Doxtator, 7 I think you said Al George and Larry French. 8 Is that right? 9 A: Yeah, I think so. 10 Q: And -- and do I have it from your 11 evidence that you now remember that you came in Larry 12 French's truck? 13 A: I said I didn't know if it was his 14 truck or not. I don't know whose truck it was. 15 Q: But your best recollection, it was 16 his truck? Is that it -- is that what we have? 17 A: I don't know, I don't know whose it 18 was. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: He was driving it, but I don't know 21 whose it was. 22 Q: All right. In any event, it was a 23 truck driven by Larry French? 24 A: I guess so. 25 Q: Okay. And there were five (5) of you
2181 in it. Were you all -- is the truck able to seat five 2 (5) of you? 3 A: I was in the back. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: I was in the back of the truck. 6 Q: Well, is there a cab on the back of 7 it? 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: Was it an opening -- an open bed in 10 the back of the truck? 11 A: I think so. 12 Q: I see, and you were sitting in the 13 back of the open bed? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And were some others with 16 you, sitting in the back -- in the back of the open bed? 17 A: I can't remember. 18 Q: All right. And we heard that -- from 19 Buck Doxtator that he and -- he said the others, 20 including you, came to Stoney Point to support the 21 occupation with the blessing of the Oneida Traditional 22 Council. 23 Did you understand that's what you were 24 doing as well? 25 A: I was going to visit. I didn't know
2191 nothing about nothing. 2 Q: I see. Do you know about the Oneida 3 Traditional Council? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you know that, at least Buck 6 Doxtator, understood that you had -- you and he had the 7 blessing or the support of the Oneida Traditional 8 Council? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Mr. Commissioner? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 14 I'm sorry. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm objecting at 16 this point. He's already indicated he knew nothing about 17 any background information that Mr. Doxtator had. He's 18 now being asked about what Mr. Doxtator thought that they 19 had in coming to Stoney Point on that day. He's not in a 20 position to answer what Mr. Doxtator has already spoken 21 to. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: All right, let me just put it this 25 way. Did you have any discussion with Buck Doxtator
2201 about the reason he understood that he -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- and you were going? All right. 4 Now, you've told us that you thought you were going 5 fishing? 6 A: I did go fishing while I was there. 7 Q: And you thought the only purpose of 8 going to Stoney Point that day, on September the 5th, was 9 to go fishing? 10 A: And visit. 11 Q: And to visit? And who was it you 12 were visiting? 13 A: Dudley. 14 Q: I see. You knew Dudley from previous 15 times with him, fishing at Stoney Point? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did you also know Glenn George? 18 A: I met him after. 19 Q: You -- you didn't know him at that 20 stage on September the 5th? 21 A: I don't know. I can't remember. I 22 know I was talking to him there at Dudley's trailer one 23 (1) time. 24 Q: That was before September the 5th, 25 '95?
2211 A: I think so. 2 Q: All right. So you think you'd met 3 Glenn George earlier at some earlier times -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- visiting Dudley at his trailer? 6 A: I think so. 7 Q: And the trailer, I gather, you're 8 referring to is the trailer that was on the range -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- before the occupation of the 11 barracks? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Now, I'm sure I don't 14 have it -- how many times before September the 5th that 15 you'd been to Stoney Point fishing? 16 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. 17 Q: Or visiting? 18 A: A few times. 19 Q: That's two (2) or three (3) or four 20 (4)? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: Less than ten (10)? 23 A: Yeah, probably less than ten (10). 24 Q: And apart from Dudley George, did -- 25 were you visiting anybody else in those occasions at
2221 Stoney Point? 2 A: Mostly went to see him. 3 Q: All right. But -- 4 A: Everybody -- all the people I'd met 5 was at his place. 6 Q: So, the first person, I take it then, 7 you knew of the Stoney Point occupiers was Dudley George? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: Well there's -- might have been a 11 couple of people I knew, but not from -- I knew from 12 London. 13 Q: I see. You knew them from London. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Sorry, were they Stoney Point 16 occupiers? 17 A: I don't know, but they're from Stoney 18 Point. 19 Q: They're from Stoney Point? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Who's that? 22 A: One (1) guy's name's Donny Shawnoo. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: I don't know what the other peoples' 25 name were.
2231 Q: All right. In any event, do I have 2 it that the extent that you met any other Stoney Point 3 occupiers, you met them by visiting Dudley George and -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- meeting them at his trailer? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And -- and you say there was Glenn 8 George, who else? 9 A: I don't know. I can't -- my mind's - 10 - I don't know names that well. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: I can't remember names. 13 Q: All right. Now we heard from Gabe 14 Doxtator that on September the 5th, he said he and he 15 thought others took bags with them when they -- when they 16 went on September the 5th, that is bags of clothing and 17 so on. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did you take a clothing bag with you? 20 A: I don't know, I can't remember. 21 Q: Did you note that the others did? 22 A: There was bags in the back of the 23 truck, yeah. 24 Q: So, was it apparent to you, then, 25 that at least the other people you were going with may be
2241 staying longer than simply the day? 2 A: They might have stayed overnight. 3 They might have took enough -- a set of clothes -- you 4 never know, they get dirty. They get wet, you have to 5 put dry clothes on. 6 Q: Now, before September the 5th, did 7 you know Larry French? 8 A: Yeah, I think so. 9 Q: And how did you know him? 10 A: Seen him. 11 Q: He -- he's not from Oneida is he? 12 A: No. 13 Q: He's a Chippewa? 14 A: I don't know what he is. 15 Q: Yeah, okay. So you saw him. 16 A: If I call him Muncey, he'll get mad 17 at me. 18 Q: All right. In any event, do you 19 recall where you first met or saw Larry French? 20 A: No, I can't remember. 21 Q: And -- so can you tell me then, how 22 did you first come to meet Dudley George? When did you 23 first meet him? 24 A: I don't know the exact date. 25 Q: Did you -- and how did you meet him?
2251 A: Through my cousin Chicken -- Al 2 George. 3 Q: Al George. And where did you meet 4 him? 5 A: At his cabin. 6 Q: So -- 7 A: In his trailer. 8 Q: -- so, did -- do we have it, then, 9 that you and Al George went to Stoney Point and met him? 10 A: Almost every time I went, I went with 11 Al. 12 Q: All right. And the first time you 13 met Dudley you went with Al? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Now, do you know a "J" -- 16 initial "J" Doxtator? Somebody with the first name that 17 starts with "J" living at Oneida? 18 A: I know about ten (10) people that 19 starts with "J". 20 Q: With the last name Doxtator? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. Were you aware that a call had 23 been made from the phone at the Ipperwash Park on 24 September the 6th to a person by the name of J. Doxtator 25 at Oneida?
2261 We were -- we -- we've been told that a 2 call was made -- to be fair, we weren't told it was made 3 on that phone, but we've now got the phone records, but 4 we -- we've been told a call was made to someone in 5 Oneida to get the code for a scanner, a police scanner, 6 to assist in listening to the police calls. 7 Did you have any -- do you have any 8 knowledge of any of that? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Do you know Ed Isaac? 11 A: Who? 12 Q: Ed Isaac. 13 A: Ed? 14 Q: Ed. 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: How about Sam Isaac? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Maybe. 20 Q: You -- 21 A: I don't know names very well, I told 22 you. 23 Q: I see. You did know Robert Isaac? 24 A: Yeah, I think so. 25 Q: All right. Let me then take you to -
2271 - to September the 5th. You said that you -- when you 2 arrived at the Park on September the 5th, you were 3 stopped by the OPP at a roadblock near the entrance to 4 the barracks. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you walked in then, into the 7 barracks? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you -- we know from your evidence 10 that later, Larry French's truck came through because you 11 then -- you later rode that truck down to the Park? 12 A: I think I was in it when I went down 13 to the Park, I'm not sure. 14 Q: Yeah. All right. And I gather from 15 your evidence that you had a discussion at that stage, 16 inside the barracks, with Glenn George? 17 A: I seen him at one (1) point in there, 18 yes. 19 Q: Yeah. Well, you said I think, this 20 morning, that once inside the barracks, you -- you saw 21 Glenn George and you learned from about the takeover of 22 the Park, -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and the keys being turned over. 25 A: No, he never, no, I never said that?
2281 Q: You didn't say that? I'm sorry, I 2 must have taken it down wrong. So, when did you -- who 3 did you learn about the takeover of the Park from, on 4 September the 5th? 5 A: I said that Judas was the one that 6 told me about that. 7 Q: All right. And then you went to the 8 Park later that day, you say, and you went fishing and 9 swimming first? 10 A: I went swimming first, I didn't -- I 11 don't remember saying I went fishing first. 12 Q: Okay. Well, I guess I got that down 13 wrong as well. So you went swimming but you didn't go 14 fishing? 15 A: I went fishing while I was there, but 16 not -- 17 Q: On -- on the 5th of September? 18 A: I don't know. I went fishing while I 19 was there. I can't remember what day it was. 20 Q: All right. Well, did you go on the 21 5th or the 6th of September? Before the incident of the 22 night of the 6th? 23 A: I can't remember. I know I went 24 fishing sometime. 25 Q: Do you remember who you went fishing
2291 with? 2 A: Allen and I can't remember who else. 3 Me and Allen George went fishing sometime. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: Me and Allen George went fishing 6 sometime, I don't know what day it was, or what time. 7 Q: How long did you stay? You arrived 8 on the 5th of September, when did you leave? 9 A: I left -- left a number of times. 10 Q: No, I'm sorry, not the Park, I'm 11 sorry, my question isn't precise enough. When did you 12 leave Stoney Point? 13 A: I left a number of times. 14 Q: Well, when did you first leave Stoney 15 Point, having arrived on September the 5th, when did you 16 first leave -- 17 A: I think it was the 9th or the 10th or 18 something. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: And then -- 22 A: I left sometime. 23 Q: And then you came back a number of 24 times and left again; is that what you're saying? 25 A: Yeah.
2301 Q: All right. And why did you -- why 2 did you come back? 3 A: They had good fishing. 4 Q: All right. Now, you've been asked 5 about your SIU Statement that you gave on September 14, 6 1996. And from hearing your evidence, Mr. George, I 7 assume that that statement given September 14, '96, -- 8 A: '97, isn't it? 9 Q: No, it's September 14, '96, is the 10 one I'm referring to. 11 A: Where's that? 12 Q: Tab 2, I believe. Tab 2. 13 A: February 14th? 14 Q: Yes. Valentine's Day, 1996. 15 A: Well, you said September. 16 Q: No, February 14 -- sorry, February 17 14, '96. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Document 1002462. Do you have that? 20 A: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. I think 22 you did say September. You meant February. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm sorry, then I'm 24 confusing this. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But that's
2311 why he was confused. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: All right. February 14. I should -- 5 we all should know Valentine's Day, it's coming up. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So that's almost exactly nine (9) 8 years ago. And I gather at that stage, you hadn't had 9 your serious accident that caused head injuries? This 10 was before your accident, wasn't it? 11 A: Yeah, I think so. But around that 12 time I was hit on the head with a big piece of wood, 13 about that big around. 14 Q: This was -- and this was in addition 15 to your accident? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: I see. Because, as I have it from 18 your -- from your evidence that's been -- you've been 19 taken through this morning from your transcript at the 20 Deane trial, that you were released on parole, January 21 the 6th, '96, that is about five (5) weeks before this 22 interview. 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: And I take it, then, you'd been in -- 25 you'd been in jail for sometime before January 6, '96?
2321 A: January '96. Maybe a month or two 2 (2). 3 Q: All right, and so do you remember, 4 was your -- did you have an accident between the time you 5 were released from patrol -- from parole -- for parole on 6 January 6th, '96 and this interview of February 14, '96? 7 A: I don't think so. 8 Q: All right, so your memory was better 9 then than it is today? 10 A: I never said that, either. 11 Q: I'm sorry? 12 A: No, I've always had a bad memory. 13 Q: I see. But it -- fair enough, some 14 of us have better memories than others. But to the 15 extent that we can compare your memory and back then, I 16 take it it was better back then, than it is today? 17 A: I can't say, I don't know. Maybe 18 it's better now. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: I do remember some things now that I 21 couldn't remember then. 22 Q: Okay, one of the things that you were 23 asked about by Mr. Worme, and you indicated in this 24 statement, is that on the -- at -- on the night of 25 September 6th, of the incident that occurred that
2331 involved the -- the police and which resulted in Dudley 2 George being shot and killed, you say that the police 3 used pepper spray at the fence? 4 A: I thought it was pepper spray. They 5 sprayed something in a can over the thing. 6 Q: Because that -- you -- let me just 7 tell you, Mr. George, as I -- and I stand to be corrected 8 if My Friends say I'm wrong, but I think that you're the 9 first witness in all of this testimony, and we've had 10 very many of them who were involved, who mentioned pepper 11 spray in that incident. 12 I don't think there was -- there was an 13 earlier incident the day before in which there was pepper 14 spray involved, but nobody's mentioned pepper spray in 15 that incident. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 17 a different recollection, Mr. Scullion? 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: My Friend did ask me 19 to correct him if we had a different recollection. I 20 believe that Buck Doxtator also testified that there was 21 some sort of spray, some sort of pepper spray that 22 evening. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At this 24 precise time? 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Yes.
2341 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Again, I may stand 3 to be corrected as well -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: In any event, we've heard from, I 8 think, dozens of -- a dozen or more people who were there 9 with you that night, and although many of them talked 10 about who were involved in an incident the day before 11 involved pepper spray, none of them with maybe one (1) 12 exception, mentioned any kind of spray or pepper spray 13 that night. 14 Are you -- and certainly the police 15 records and the police evidence we're going to hear 16 doesn't indicate there was any pepper spray in that 17 incident. 18 And so I wonder if maybe -- 19 A: Well, they had something in the can 20 and they sprayed it at us. 21 Q: I see. Were you involved in an 22 incident that -- the day before, involving police at the 23 fence? Any other incident? 24 A: I'm not sure, might have been. 25 Q: And because we've heard about another
2351 incident the day before in which it is said there was 2 some pepper spray used, and I'm just wondering, maybe you 3 got it confused with an earlier incident? 4 A: No. 5 Q: You don't think so? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland, 12 I don't want to rush you. I want to take a break now, 13 and after the break -- 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's fine -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 16 continue after the break. We'll take a break now. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 18 for fifteen (15) minutes. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 2:50 p.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 3:06 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed, please be seated. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead.
2361 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: Mr. George, let me take you, if I 4 could for a moment, to the incident that occurred on 5 September the 5th, '95, that you told Mr. Worme about, 6 involving, you said, twenty (20) to thirty (30) officers 7 in the sandy parking lot, in which there were some things 8 said by the officer you've described, short, stocky, 9 blonde hair, to -- to Dudley George, and I think to 10 others as well. 11 And I -- and you have in your SIU 12 Statement, described that officer as being in uniform, an 13 ordinary policeman's uniform? Do you remember that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that he had a police vehicle 16 there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I gather from your recollection 19 and description about it, that the officer wanted to 20 fight somebody? He was inviting -- 21 A: Anybody. 22 Q: -- Judas or somebody, to come across 23 and fight with him? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that he seemed to know and be
2371 able to identify some of the occupiers by name? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Including, he could identify Dudley 4 by name? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: I take it you didn't know him and he 7 didn't identify you by name? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So I gather it was apparent to you 10 that this was an officer who likely policed in the area? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: You don't know. 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: All right. Then, you also told us 15 about the picnic table incident -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- on September the 5th. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you say in that incident, that 20 what you remember, I gather, near the end of the 21 incident, was that rocks were thrown, that the police 22 officers threw rocks and you said, we threw them back. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, let me just help you here a bit, 25 Mr. George, that we've heard from a good number of
2381 occupiers who were part of that incident at the picnic 2 table, and many of them testified that they threw rocks 3 at the police vehicles, and indeed damaged the police 4 vehicles by throwing rocks at them; but no one suggested, 5 until you today, that any police officers threw rocks at 6 the occupiers. 7 Are you sure that police -- you say police 8 officers threw rocks at the occupiers? 9 A: Yeah, I seen a couple of them throw 10 rocks. 11 Q: I see. So, that you saw something 12 that no one else saw. 13 A: I guess so. Unless everybody forgot 14 it. I don't know. 15 Q: And I take it that's a remarkable 16 event. You don't often see police officers throwing 17 rocks at citizens? 18 A: Usually they're shooting at them. 19 Q: I see. You haven't seen anybody -- 20 you can't tell us of another incident of police officers 21 throwing rocks at citizens, I gather? 22 A: I don't know. Guess not. 23 Q: Now, do you recall in that incident 24 of the picnic tables, some of the occupiers there putting 25 or lifting picnic table on the top of a cruiser front
2391 hood? 2 A: No, I don't remember that. 3 Q: You don't remember that? If you were 4 there and participated in this, and it happened, isn't it 5 something you'd likely remember? 6 A: I don't know. 7 Q: Sorry? 8 A: I don't remember it; but I was there. 9 Q: You were there. It's not something 10 you often see either, is it, seeing persons lift a picnic 11 table and -- on top of a police hood? 12 A: Usually you don't see police driving 13 into people either. 14 Q: Right; but you say you have no 15 recollection of that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Now, you indicated that you -- you 18 stayed overnight on September the 5th, but you didn't 19 tell us where, I gather you stayed -- 20 A: I can't remember where. 21 Q: Well, I gather -- let's start with 22 the barracks. I gather you stayed in the barracks, did 23 you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes. And you don't remember in whose
2401 residence you stayed? 2 A: I can't remember. 3 Q: And you don't remember which 4 residence you stayed in? Neither whose nor which? 5 A: No. 6 Q: You don't remember the location 7 either? 8 A: I can't remember exactly where it 9 was. 10 Q: Did you stay in the same place -- 11 A: I might -- I might even have slept in 12 a car that night. 13 Q: Okay. Did you stay in the same -- 14 did you sleep -- 15 A: Or I was up all night in front of the 16 fire. I'm sorry. 17 Q: You were -- you think you were up all 18 night in front of the fire? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. On September the 5th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Well that's -- 23 A: I thought you said 6th. 24 Q: Yes. No, I'm talking about the night 25 of September the 5th through the 6th.
2411 A: I thought you said the -- the night 2 of the 6th. 3 Q: No, no, I'm talking about the night 4 of the -- 5 A: The 5th. 6 Q: -- of the 5th, the morning of the 7 6th, that -- 8 A: I -- I don't know where I stayed. I 9 can't remember. 10 Q: All right. And do you remember what 11 time you went up to the barracks? 12 A: No. 13 Q: You said -- you said you didn't get 14 back down until late in the morning on the -- September 15 the 6th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can we assume from that, you were 18 likely up fairly late on September the 5th? 19 A: I guess so. 20 Q: All right. And do you -- when you 21 were at the Park before you left to the barracks on 22 September the 5th -- late on September the 5th -- do you 23 recall seeing or hearing any machinery being operated in 24 the Park? 25 A: I can't remember.
2421 Q: All right. 2 A: I do not remember. 3 Q: All right. Let me ask you a bit 4 about yourself. Do you -- do you know how to operate 5 heavy equipment? 6 A: What's heavy equipment? 7 Q: Front end loaders -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- trucks -- no? All right. We're 10 going to hear some evidence that there was somebody in 11 the Park late on September the 5th around midnight 12 operating a front end loader and a truck. 13 Do you have any recollection of that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You wouldn't have operated it, but do 16 you have any recollection of seeing it or hearing it? 17 A: I don't remember. 18 Q: All right. All right. Let's -- let 19 me take you, then, if I could to the night of the 6th, 20 but sorry, before we get to the night of the 6th, let's 21 go to the afternoon of the 6th. 22 You say that in the afternoon of the 6th 23 police officers were shining mirrors into the Park? 24 A: I thought they were, like, that's 25 what I remember.
2431 Q: We -- I don't think we've heard any 2 evidence of that either, that's something that no one 3 else has testified to. 4 A: I must be the only one that seen it, 5 then. 6 Q: What we do know, I think, is that on 7 the 6th there were some media there and do you think it 8 might have -- what you might have seen is some reflection 9 from some media lights or cameras or something like that? 10 A: I guess so, I don't know. I just 11 know what I seen. 12 Q: Well, that's what we're trying to 13 find out. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: What you did see. 16 A: Well, I don't -- I don't know. I 17 just -- I thought I seen them going like that with a 18 little light, little -- little -- little mirrors. 19 Q: Okay. And then you say during the 20 6th you went back and forth to the barracks all day and 21 when Mr. Worme asked you why you went back and forth to 22 the barracks all day you said, no reason. You had no 23 reason for going back and forth all day. 24 A: I don't know. I can't recall doing 25 everything that -- why I do everything over the years.
2441 Q: Isn't it fair to say, Mr. George, 2 that you must have had a reason, but -- but you don't 3 remember what it is? 4 A: Maybe. Maybe I forgot something up 5 there, I don't know. 6 Q: Yeah, you wouldn't have done it for 7 no reason, you would have had some reason. 8 A: Not really. 9 Q: You just do things for no reason at 10 all? 11 A: Not really. 12 Q: Yeah, that's what I thought is, you'd 13 have some reason. Isn't it fair to say you had some 14 reason for going up to the barracks, but today you don't 15 remember why? 16 A: I guess so, I don't know. 17 Q: All right. In the -- in your SIU 18 statement, you said that you only went up once to the 19 barrack that day. This is at page 4, you were asked the 20 question: 21 "Where were -- where -- were you there 22 all day on September the 6th that -- 23 that day? [referring to the Park] 24 I -- I was there most of the time, but 25 I came up here once and went back down
2451 there." 2 See that about a third of the way down the 3 page? 4 A: Yes, I see. 5 Q: And so you seemed to be saying that 6 on September the 6th, at least when you gave this 7 interview, some -- 8 A: Well I remember different now. 9 Q: -- six (6) months later that you only 10 went up once. 11 A: I must have went up more than once. 12 I know I went up there more than once. I must have been 13 around -- I don't know. 14 Q: All right. And then you were asked 15 about the incident itself and let me turn you to page 5. 16 A: That was just during the day. 17 Q: I see. 18 A: I must have misunderstood that 19 question when he asked it to me. 20 Q: Okay. Let's actually turn to page 12 21 because Mr. Worme read you some of the SIU interview that 22 was taped and transcribed, but he stopped before, I think 23 we covered the topic of you coming back from the barracks 24 at the time of the commencement of the incident at the 25 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road
2461 around eleven o'clock that night. 2 And he read to you the -- the part that 3 begins: 4 "Okay, now when the police first come 5 down there, down the road, as they're 6 marching, what did -- what's the first 7 thing that they did?" 8 And you say: 9 "I wasn't there when they, like, the 10 very first time when they first got 11 there. I was -- that's when I was just 12 getting there." 13 And then he didn't read the -- the next. 14 I want to read that to you. 15 "Q: Okay, you said, and I just go 16 there, like when the police were 17 already there when I got there. The 18 police were already there when I got 19 there." 20 And then: 21 "Okay, so when you get there, what's 22 the first thing you see the police -- 23 the police doing? 24 A: They told us to leave the Park." 25 So you're saying that's the first thing.
2471 They're already when you arrive, and they told us to 2 leave the Park. 3 Does that help you refresh your memory? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No? And -- 6 A: I was there when the police come down 7 the road. 8 Q: Well, that doesn't seem to be 9 consistent. You say that, but it doesn't seem to be 10 consistent with what I've just read to you. 11 A: Well, they wait -- they waited a year 12 to do it. 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: They waited almost a year to do it. 15 Q: No, I think it's not almost a year. 16 It's September to February which is about -- 17 A: Four (4) months. 18 Q: -- six (6) months, and you've agreed 19 to me that your memory would have been much better then 20 about that incident which happened six (6) months earlier 21 than today, nine (9) months -- nine (9) years later. 22 A: Well, it seem like I remember it more 23 now than I -- what I said in here. Don't forget, we were 24 being shot at. It's kind of -- gets to you. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. All right, well let's take
2481 you to some of that. 2 A: I could have been still in shock, I 3 don't know. 4 Q: Because you talked -- they asked you 5 about the incident that occurred and if we go to Page 5, 6 if you look about half way down, the question is asked -- 7 actually before we get there, about a third of the way 8 down, Alan asks you: 9 "Do you know Dudley? Did you know 10 Dudley George? 11 A: I knew him a bit. I, like, I knew 12 him to talk to him and stuff like that. 13 Q: Hmm and did you see him there? 14 A: Yes, I did." 15 Then they change the tape. You go on: 16 "Yeah, I seen Dudley there 'cause we 17 were talking together before, just 18 before that happened. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And he -- he was one in front of 21 me on -- on this side. 22 Q: Yep, you're indicating with your 23 right hand, so he's out to your -- to 24 your right side? 25 A: Yeah, just a bit, just in front
2491 of me. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 [You say] There was somebody else right 4 in front, just right in front of me and 5 they started shooting at us here. 6 Could hear that -- the bullets 7 whizzing right by my head and something 8 hit me in the leg. So I must have been 9 hit in front of me -- so it must have 10 hit in front of me ;cause little pieces 11 of rock and stuff hit me in the leg. 12 Allan: Hmm hmm." 13 You go on: 14 "Because I had little wee bruise on my 15 leg, it got -- it hit me on both sides, 16 so I started going back towards the 17 Park, where the Park is. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: And heard somebody say something 20 about being shot. Somebody said that 21 either he -- he was shot or they said I 22 think I'm shot but I know they said 23 something about being shot. I turned 24 around and I seen him fall over and I 25 ran over there, 'cause he was -- he was
2501 right by me. 2 And I turned around and I turned him 3 over and there's blood on the front of 4 him, like that, on his shirt. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Hmm hmm." 6 You carry on: 7 "So I hollered at a couple of other 8 guys, help them carry him back on the 9 other side and we carried him over 10 there. We carried him over there and 11 laid him down or they got the car, they 12 picked him up, put him in the car and 13 they took him to the front up here. 14 Q: Where was the person who said, you 15 know, who the person was now that said, 16 I'm hit or -- 17 A: He was right behind me. 18 Q: Yeah, but you know who that person 19 was? 20 A: It was Dudley. 21 Q: It was Dudley and whereabouts? I 22 know you said he was right behind you, 23 but whereabouts was he and when this 24 happened -- when this happened were you 25 on the road or were you on the sandy
2511 parking lot? Where were you?" 2 Your answer: 3 "I was standing on the pavement. 4 Q: You were standing on the pavement 5 so Dudley is a little bit -- he's in 6 front of you until you turn around, now 7 he's behind you. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Is that what you're saying? So, 10 would he be on the pavement as well?" 11 Your answer: 12 "Yeah, I think he was." 13 Okay, so what we have here, Mr. George, it 14 appears within six (6) months of the incident, what 15 you're saying, as I read this, is that you were on the 16 pavement, the shooting began, you think some shots hit 17 near you and little bits of pavement or asphalt hit your 18 leg -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- and Dudley was in front of you -- 21 that is further west of you -- you turned around and 22 started heading back to the Park and you heard something 23 -- you heard him say something about being hit and you 24 turned around and he was on the pavement, having been 25 hit, that's what it appears you said.
2521 So maybe you can describe from the -- for 2 us on the diagram behind you where that occurred on the 3 pavement? 4 A: It wasn't on the pavement. 5 Q: Well, it certainly indicates it's on 6 the pavement in your SIU trans -- transcript of your 7 taped interview. 8 A: Is it the same thing it says that 9 when I went to court? 10 Q: I'm sorry? 11 A: Is it the same thing said that when I 12 went to court? 13 Q: Well, it's hard to -- to do it from 14 the court because -- which was later -- because it 15 requires Exhibit 19A, which was a diagram that was -- in 16 which you indicated placements. And we don't seem to 17 have that in the database. 18 I don't know where that is, whether it's 19 available, but there was an exhibit entered in that 20 proceeding in which you made some markings and I -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have it in Toronto. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: We don't have it. All 23 right. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: We don't have it here. 25
2531 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: It's not in the database and so we 3 don't seem to have it. What -- what you did say in the 4 transcript, of course you don't remember your evidence, 5 but what you did say at page 135 line 6, you say: 6 "I was standing over here and something 7 hit me in the leg, it must have been a 8 piece of asphalt or something. I could 9 hear whining noses -- noises going by 10 my head." 11 So it's consistent that when you were -- 12 when the shots were first being fired that you were being 13 hit by a piece of asphalt, which means you were on the 14 asphalt. 15 A: Yes, I was. 16 Q: Yeah, which is -- 17 A: Well, I -- I was right around here 18 some place. 19 Q: Yeah? 20 A: I went back here when I seen Dudley. 21 We were coming from over here some place and went over 22 here. He was walking toward me, then he was behind me 23 after a while because I turned, because I'm facing 24 towards you right now, right? 25 Q: Yes.
2541 A: Looking at you? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: He was walking toward me and I turned 4 and started walking this other way and that put him 5 behind me. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: All right. Let me ask you about the 10 location of the bus at the time that the shooting began. 11 As I understand your evidence today, the bus was down by, 12 I think, Number 9 on the diagram that you've marked, near 13 the driveway? 14 A: I think that's where -- I think 15 that's where it was. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Where's the curve on there, because 20 there's a curve there, too, someplace. Whereabouts is 21 it? 22 Q: I think it's considerably west. 23 A: Way over here? 24 Q: Yes. And you had earlier said in 25 this SIU statement that Dudley was ahead of you, that he
2551 was ahead of you and to the right. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Was that at the time that the 4 shooting began, when the bus was still down -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- the roadway? And so that put him 7 further west of you, right? 8 A: What way's west? 9 Q: Yeah, because you're heading 10 westerly, you're walking towards the bus, or running you 11 told us, towards the bus, and you say Dudley is ahead of 12 you -- 13 A: Way down that side. 14 Q: So he would have been further west of 15 you? 16 A: He was on this side of me. 17 Q: He was on your right side. Well, you 18 said to the SIU investigators, he was ahead of you and to 19 the right. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And so that would have put him to 22 your right and further to the west of you? 23 A: I guess so. 24 Q: Right. And you've indicated that you 25 were really towards the south side of the pavement. If
2561 we draw a line east and west showing the south side of 2 East Parkway, you were towards -- on the pavement towards 3 the south side of East Parkway, at the intersection? 4 A: Where's that? 5 Q: Right? 6 A: Can you show me where that is that 7 you're talking about? 8 Q: Yeah, well, you indicate that you 9 were on the pavement. Show us again where you say you 10 were on the pavement where you were -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 12 to take the microphone in your hand, and that way we'll 13 get it on the record. 14 THE WITNESS: I was around here some 15 place. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: All right, do you want to mark that? 19 We'll mark a "10" there. 20 THE REGISTRAR: 12. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, 12. All right. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know, round here 23 some place, I think. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
2571 Q: All right. 2 A: I can't tell you for sure. 3 Q: And so Dudley George was west of you 4 and to your right? 5 A: When I came out, I came out through 6 here, and that's when he was on that side of me. When I 7 come over here, he was on the -- he was on that side of 8 me over here, but over here I don't -- I can't remember 9 where everybody was, because I was being shot at, at the 10 time. 11 I couldn't put anybody in the place where 12 they were. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Because when I come back this way, he 17 come from over this way. He come this way, and we were 18 together and come out that way. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Okay, once you were shot at, you 23 turned around and faced east, I take it, heading back 24 into the Park? 25
2581 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I believe I went north, first, then 4 east, according to this map. 5 Q: All right, you went in a northerly 6 and east -- well, it's fair to say you went in a north- 7 easterly direction -- 8 A: No, no, north then east -- 9 Q: -- and then went back towards to the 10 Park. All right, all right. So you went -- you're 11 saying you turned around and headed back into the middle 12 of the sandy parking lot? 13 A: No, from this way. 14 Q: Yeah, well, I think that's a fair 15 description. You're saying you headed -- after you were 16 shot at, you headed towards the sandy parking lot? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right, towards the middle of the 19 sandy parking lot? 20 A: I went this way. 21 Q: Yeah. All right, well I think -- 22 A: Because this -- this thing doesn't 23 look exactly as when you're out on the street there. It 24 looks different. 25 Q: Of course. And at that stage, Dudley
2591 George was behind you, right? 2 A: I told you, I was coming toward him 3 like this and he turned this way and -- see I turned here 4 and I went this way -- we were facing each other here and 5 turned -- turned this way and he was behind me after 6 that. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: All right, a couple of other 11 questions and I'll be concluded. Do you know Les Jewel? 12 A: I know of him. 13 Q: And how -- how do you know of him? 14 A: Because I seen him there. 15 Q: All right. And what about Russel 16 Jewel. 17 A: Russ is his brother. 18 Q: And do you know him as well? 19 A: I don't know him well. 20 Q: No, I mean -- 21 A: I know who he is. 22 Q: You know who he is? And did you see 23 him there as well? 24 A: I seen him there at one (1) point, 25 yeah.
2601 Q: And I gather they were there when you 2 arrived on September the 5th? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: And they were there when you left on 5 September the 9th? 6 A: I think so. 7 Q: All right. And do you know why they 8 were there? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: Did you speak to them? 11 A: At one (1) point. But I never asked 12 him what he was there for. 13 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. Those are my 14 questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. Roland. That's it, this is your client so 17 it's up to you, Mr. Scullion. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Just a couple of 19 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 22 Q: You've been asked a number of 23 questions, Mr. George, about your discussions with the 24 SIU, and in fact, there was one (1) in 1996 and another 25 one again in 1997.
2611 A: Yes. 2 Q: Do you recall those questions? And 3 just to put it in perspective, we have transcripts from 4 tape recordings that appear to be done from one (1) of 5 the investigating officer's car. 6 A: Hmm, hmm. 7 Q: Is that where the first interview 8 took place? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And is that where the second 11 interview took place? 12 A: I can't remember. 13 Q: All right. Well, to assist you in 14 that regard -- 15 A: I don't even remember the second one 16 at all. 17 Q: All right. It does indicate on the 18 transcript that it was taken while you were in, again, in 19 the car with the investigator. 20 A: Oh yeah. Yeah, I think I remember 21 now. 22 Q: Okay. You weren't working from one 23 (1) of these maps at the time that you were talking to 24 the SIU? 25 A: No.
2621 Q: And we've gone through -- 2 A: I told them -- when I was doing this, 3 I told them that I didn't know if that was exactly 4 correct or not. 5 Q: Sure. 6 A: And they said they agreed with me. 7 Q: Sure. And you're going from your 8 memory without a diagram beside you, where you could 9 point to places on the map where you're describing. 10 A: It would be totally different if we 11 were out -- we were out there on the street doing each 12 one, it would be different than having that map there. 13 Q: Okay. And when you were testifying 14 at the Dean Trial, you did have the assistance of a map 15 in the background, didn't you? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you were asked to make markings 18 on that map as to where a number of these events 19 occurred? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your descriptions in the 22 transcript from the Trial were in relation to the map 23 that you were pointing to at that time? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And a number of the witnesses have
2631 testified so far that the first interview that they did 2 with the SIU, they were told that this was to focus on 3 the incident of September 6th, regarding Dudley George. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now do you recall being told that by 6 the officer? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at the second interview that you 9 had, was to focus on the incident regarding Slippery or 10 Cecil Bernard George. 11 Do you recall being instructed in that 12 regard, for the second interview? 13 A: Not really. 14 Q: No? 15 A: I can't really remember too much -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- about that one. 18 Q: All right. Well, there's been some 19 comments that you were simply asked to tell everything 20 about this incident. 21 I would suggest to you that you were asked 22 questions by the officers along the way? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that a number of issues were left 25 out, not because you forgot to tell them, but because you
2641 weren't asked any questions about them? 2 A: And I mentioned it, they said it 3 wasn't relevant. 4 Q: Well, were you asked about the next 5 day going to see this ambulance? 6 A: I think I was, I'm not sure. 7 Q: Asked about it, in the course of the 8 interview? 9 A: I don't know if not -- if it's not in 10 there, I guess I never. 11 Q: That's right. If it's not in the 12 transcript, presumably you weren't asked that specific 13 question -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- by the SIU? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You weren't asked about the ambulance 18 the next day? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You weren't asked about any liquor 21 bottles -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- that you found in the ambulance? 24 You weren't asked about your reaction, finding an 25 ambulance full of liquor bottles?
2651 A: I think I -- I said something to them, 2 at one (1) point about that, and they -- they said, I 3 forget, I can't remember what they said. 4 Q: Right. So if you had mentioned it 5 along the way, it's simply not in the transcript, because 6 the recording wasn't going? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Is that fair? 9 A: Exactly. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: It wasn't on the whole time I was in 12 the car. I was in there for a good hour, longer than 13 this was taken. 14 Q: Okay. You testified In-Chief to 15 finding liquor bottles both in the ambulance -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- and along a pathway? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, is it fair to say that you went 20 into the ambulance first, saw the liquor bottles, came 21 out of the ambulance, and then followed a trail? 22 A: I think somebody else found the 23 bottles outside first, and I went to look at them then we 24 followed that trail of bottles to that ambulance, where I 25 seen those in the garbage there.
2661 Q: Okay. So it happened in the reverse. 2 You found bottles and followed the -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- trail. And the trail went through 5 the woods on the south side of East Parkway Drive? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And finding bottles in that location 8 concerned you, didn't it? 9 A: Yeah, I guess so. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Because we asked anybody if they were 12 drinking, nobody said they were drinking. Everybody said 13 they weren't drinking around that area. 14 Q: Everybody that was part of your 15 group? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: As opposed to police officers that 18 were in the area. 19 A: Well we weren't talking to police 20 officers. 21 Q: In fact, there weren't any police 22 officers -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- in that area, were there? 25 A: No. There was also something they
2671 never put in here. We were picking up shell cases the 2 next day, but I never said nothing in here. 3 Q: There's nothing in the transcript 4 about that either is there? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now, lastly, Mr. Roland started off 7 his examination with a series of questions about you 8 visiting Stoney Point. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you recall that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You drove up, not being a driver, but 13 a passenger in a truck that drove up with Al George -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- Larry French -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- yourself, Buck Doxtator -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- and Gabe Doxtator, none of whom 20 are Stoney Pointers. 21 A: No. 22 Q: You drove up that day, you thought 23 you were going fishing and you were going to spend some 24 time with Dudley. 25 A: Yes.
2681 Q: You arrive and find a police 2 roadblock at the front of Arm -- on Army Camp Road. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: The truck goes through the roadblock, 5 into the Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right? You saw police officers 8 at the roadblock? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Presumably, the police officers saw 11 you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You went into the Camp and you spent 14 the next two (2) to three (3) days, at least, in the 15 Camp -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- and in the Park. You're there on 18 September 5th, the day before Dudley's shot -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- and you recall an incident with a 21 police officer asking people to come out and take him on? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: He wanted to fight somebody and he 24 named Judas, he named Dudley, but he didn't name you, did 25 he?
2691 A: No. 2 Q: And he didn't name Larry French, we 3 also know as Dutchie. 4 A: Those are the only two (2) he 5 mentioned. 6 Q: Those are the only two (2) he 7 mentioned? None of the other visitors that came on the 8 4th? 9 A: Nobody else from there either. 10 Q: That's right. On the 6th, you're 11 part of this incident that occurs where Cecil Bernard 12 George is beaten? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And Dudley's shot. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Were you ever charged with anything 17 relating to this incident? 18 A: No, I have not been. 19 Q: Unlawful or forcible entry? 20 A: Nothing. 21 Q: Forcible detainer of the Park? 22 A: Nothing. 23 Q: Unlawful occupation? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You weren't charged with anything
2701 relating to this incident? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Thank you, Mr. George, those are all 4 my questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 6 Worme...? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: That is the -- that is 8 all the question that we have. There is no re- 9 examination for this Witness so thank you, Mr. George, 10 for attending here, for answering questions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much, Mr. George, for coming here and giving us your 13 evidence. Thank you. 14 15 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the next 18 witness is Mr. Carl Tolsma who will be here tomorrow 19 morning. We don't have a witness for today, for the 20 balance of the day. One thing I wanted to mention, 21 however, is that we have brought the exhibits from the 22 Deane trial of -- on every occasion except this occasion, 23 unfortunately, and if -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 25 Roland knew that.
2711 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and if Mr. Roland 2 or anyone else, they're very large diagrams like this, 3 would give us a heads up that we'll try to make sure that 4 it doesn't happen again, but anyway, we'll have Mr. 5 Tolsma. 6 Now, what were going to do is because Mr. 7 French can only be here on Thursday, we were going to 8 deal with Mr. Tolsma in chief. Assuming it goes most of 9 the day, perhaps we could do some cross-examination, but 10 the bulk of the cross-examination would then have to be 11 adjourned to February 22nd because Mr. Tolsma cannot be 12 here on February 21st, but because of the problem with 13 Mr. French, can only be here on Thursday, we need to move 14 them around. So that's the way it's going to work out. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if Mr. 16 French starts on Thursday -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I would expect Mr. 18 French will be finished on Thursday. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But if he's 20 not, can he be available on the following Monday? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The week -- Monday -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or is he 23 just -- 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we'll have to 25 figure that out.
2721 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because if 2 he's only available the one (1) day, we have to do -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or we 5 can't finish him on that day. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll have -- 7 hopefully we will. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 That's fine. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So we'll start with 11 Mr. Tolsma at nine o'clock tomorrow morning, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much, we're adjourned for the day. We'll reconvene 14 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 16 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, February the 9th at 17 9:00 a.m. 18 19 --- Upon adjourning at 3:42 p.m. 20 Certified Correct 21 22 23 24 __________________ 25 Wendy Warnock