11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 7th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 24 Michelle Pong ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) Student-at-law 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) 12 13 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 18 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 19 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 20 21 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 22 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 23 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 8 Robyn Trask ) 9 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 10 11 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 12 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 13 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 14 Julian Roy ) (np) 15 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 16 Linda Chen ) (np) 17 Chris Darnay ) 18 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 19 20 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 21 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 22 23 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 24 Matthew Horner ) (np) 25 Kathleen Lickers ) (np)
51 2 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 3 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 4 Craig Mills ) (np) 5 Megan Mackey ) (np) 6 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 7 Erin Tully ) (np) 8 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 9 Maanit Zemel ) 10 11 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 12 Anna Perschy ) 13 Melissa Panjer ) 14 Adam Goodman ) (np) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 Anthony Gilbert Parkin, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 315 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Kim Twohig 318 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 330 10 11 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 342 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1057 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 4 Parkin/Linton, 21:53 hours, 5 Sept. 05/'95. 91 6 P-1058 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 7 Parkin/Carson, 07:22 hours, 8 Sept.06/'95. 91 9 P-1059 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 10 Parkin/Linton, 23:07 hours, 11 Sept.06/'95. 144 12 P-1060 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 13 Parkin/Wright, 00:57 hours, Sept. 14 07/'95. 193 15 P-1061 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 16 Parkin/Wright, 04:05 hours, Sept. 17 07/'95. 198 18 P-1062 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 19 Parkin/Wright, 04:07 hours, Sept. 07/'95. 222 20 P-1063 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 21 Parkin/Wright, 04:31 hours, Sept. 07/'95. 240 22 P-1064 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 23 Parkin/Linton, 06:05 hours, Sept.07/'95. 250 24 P-1065: Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 25 Parkin/Peterman" 06:20 hours, sept 07/'95.258
81 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-1066 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 4 Parkin/Linton, 07:32 hours, Sept. 5 07/'95. 266 6 P-1067 Anthony Parkin audiotape transcript, 7 Parkin/Gordon, 09:05 hours, Sept. 07/'95 292 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, everybody. 12 13 ANTHONY GILBERT PARKIN, Resumed 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Good morning, Mr. Parkin. 17 A: Good morning, sir. 18 Q: We left off yesterday, sir, when 19 reviewing the telephone conversation, the transcript 20 rather, the telephone conversation of September the 5th 21 at 09:43 hours between yourself and Inspector John 22 Carson. 23 Do you recall that? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And simultaneously, we -- pardon me,
101 we also looked at your handwritten notes which is Exhibit 2 P-499 and were I think finishing up at page 27 of those 3 notes which I think you agreed at the end of the day that 4 those essentially corresponded with the transcript of the 5 conversation that I had just referred you to. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And I just wanted to bring your 8 attention back if I may, sir, to page 27 and perhaps I 9 would start there with you. And you told us yesterday as 10 you read through these entries as to what essentially 11 that meant and how it corresponded with the transcript of 12 that conversation with John Carson. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And you see right at the bottom of 17 the page you talked yesterday about the press: 18 "Marilyn informed Sergeant Babbitt. 19 Fax releases." 20 A: Yes, sir? 21 Q: Do you recall speaking of that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you'll see there's a couple of 24 entries just at the bottom of that page beyond that. It 25 says:
111 "Confirmed taping of private line." 2 And then: 3 "Daryl Smith, MNR." 4 Just at the bottom of that page 27 -- 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: -- in your handwritten notes? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Okay. I was just going to ask you a 9 little bit about your note making or note taking 10 practices, and I think I may have asked you a little bit 11 about that yesterday. 12 But I wonder if you might tell us when 13 these notes that we've just referred to at -- at page 27, 14 for example, when -- when would you have recorded those? 15 A: These notes on the 5th would have 16 been recorded, I would believe, shortly after the phone 17 call with Inspector Carson. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I don't know how long after the phone 20 call or if it was immediately after I hung up. 21 Q: All right. Because I'm -- I'm going 22 to suggest to you that that confirming of the taping of 23 the private line as well as the reference to Daryl Smith 24 of MNR, that you will see may come up later. 25 And we're going to come to that
121 conversation next. And that's a conversation between 2 yourself again and Inspector Carson of September the 5th. 3 And this conversation which we will get to in a moment 4 you will find at Tab 2. And that conversation bears the 5 time stamp of 11:37:42. 6 Okay. So, we'll come to that in a moment. 7 But again just in terms of your -- of your note making, 8 and I'm going to ask you to jump ahead a little bit in 9 your -- in your personal notes, if you go to page 35 of 10 your handwritten notes; that's under the date of 11 September the 11th you'll see the entry there, Mr. 12 Parkin, at 11 -- pardon me, at 07:45 hours? 13 And it would seem to indicate that -- 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: -- that that was at least one (1) 16 instance of where you actually make an entry about the 17 note making? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And I hadn't been able to find any 20 entries with respect to note making previously, and are 21 we to take from that that all of these notes were made on 22 the 11th of September as that would indicate or might 23 seem to indicate? 24 A: No, sir, I can't -- why I wrote "note 25 making" there, it may have been in particular to catching
131 up this morning here, but those notes were made at the 2 time or sometime after that. Do you want me to explain 3 where the -- the note taking is out of sync? 4 Q: If you would please because we -- we 5 will come to that question or certainly I expect that 6 perhaps one of My Friends might raise that. 7 A: Yes. The notes on Wednesday the 6th 8 of September which is page 30 and starts at 19:50 hours, 9 those notes were made at or around approximately 05:00 10 hours. And you see on page 31 I had 05:00 hours: 11 "Attended at Grand Bend Detachment to 12 set up operational centre." 13 Q: I'm sorry, just give me that 14 reference again please? 15 A: Page 31. 16 Q: I have it. Thank you. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: And so that's when the notes would 19 have been recorded of the -- of the Wednesday -- 20 A: Of those -- 21 Q: -- the 6th of September? 22 A: -- of those pages, those two pages. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And then I have the rest of the day 25 spent on operational planning. And then the notes of 07
141 September on page 32 at 18:00 hours, those would have 2 been made in or around that time. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: The reason that the notes prior to 5 05:00 hours on the 31st and on page 30 weren't written 6 until later is because I had travelled to Forest to see 7 John Carson; I had asked him about coming down and Chief 8 Superintendent Coles indicated that he would go down with 9 me. 10 We were just going down to basically show 11 our support for them and show the officers out there that 12 we were aware of what they were doing. And we took 13 around -- took a drive around the Park and we met with 14 John at Forest. 15 We left and I believe what happened was we 16 went in Chief Superintendent Coles' car as opposed to 17 mine. And whether we dropped mine off at my house or left 18 it in Forest, I can't -- I'm not 100 percent sure. It 19 was probably dropped off at my house. Regardless, I was 20 with Chief Superintendent Coles. 21 So to shorten the story, once everything 22 started to happen and I was getting called at night with 23 respect to the bus and the car incident and what was 24 taking place, I didn't take any notes at that time. 25 And when I got the call that there had
151 been a fatality and I was notifying Criminal 2 Investigations Bureau because we knew we were going to 3 have to call SIU to attend the scene and then I was in 4 touch with Chief Superintendent Coles, he indicated -- I 5 said that I was getting into my uniform and was going to 6 go down to the scene, he asked me to stop by his place 7 and pick him up which I did. 8 When I got to -- down to Forest to see 9 John and then subsequently to Grand Bend, I didn't have 10 my notebook with me. Everything had been happening so 11 quickly and so fast so I sat down finally at Grand Bend 12 at 5:00 in the morning trying to capture some of what had 13 taken place. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: So that's the explanation as to what 16 happened there. After that time, then everything else 17 would have been recorded approximately, you know, 18 hopefully within minutes but perhaps within hours of when 19 it took place. 20 Q: As soon as it was practical for you 21 is that what you're saying? 22 A: As soon as it was practical. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: If I can take you back then to
161 September the 5th, just those notes on page 27 at the 2 bottom and perhaps what we'll do is we'll carry on with 3 that. 4 And I will be asking you in a moment when 5 we come to the tape of -- to the transcript of the 6 subsequent conversation about confirming the taping of 7 the private line and I'll bring you that -- back to that 8 in a moment. 9 So maybe what we can do, and I'll ask you 10 to turn to Tab Number 2 of the audio -- of the audio 11 briefs -- the transcripts of the audio. 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Again, this is a conversation between 14 yourself and John Carson and that is time stamped at 15 11:37 and 42 hours, do you see that? 16 A: Yes, that's -- 17 Q: We have a copy up -- up on the screen 18 as well. And this has previously been entered as well, 19 as an exhibit. It is the -- sorry, just one second. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 24 looking for the exhibit number? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry?
171 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 2 looking for the exhibit number? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: At 444 -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 444A? 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Right. And I believe 6 that that's at Tab 11 of that particular exhibit, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: And I'm -- I'm going to ask you to 12 confirm for us, that in fact what it is, is that 13 Inspector Carson providing you with an update as you had 14 previously agreed that the -- the day before -- or an 15 earlier conversation rather that you would get a call 16 approximately every two (2) hours. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And this was your two (2) hour 19 reporting or briefing from -- from Inspector Carson? 20 A: Yes. The two (2) hours was a very 21 flexible time schedule. I mean if he was busy at the two 22 (2) hour marker, then I wouldn't expect a call at that 23 time. 24 Q: All right. So you're initially 25 talking to another person, one Edginton.
181 A: We -- 2 Q: Pardon me, Carson is talk -- 3 Inspector Carson is talking to one Edginton and then he 4 asks for you. 5 Do you see that at the bottom of page 64? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And you come onto the conversation at 8 the top of page 65. Do you see -- that's where Mr. 9 Carson is advising you that there has been trees being 10 chopped down, and then he goes on to tell you that there 11 is an Interministerial meeting at 11:00 a.m. that day to 12 discuss the injunction or the support for the injunction? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: I take it that that would have been 15 the first that you were aware of that -- of that 16 Interministerial Committee Meeting to occur at that -- at 17 that point? Was that the -- 18 A: I -- 19 Q: -- first information you received of 20 that? 21 A: I would believe so. 22 Q: If you go down to the bottom of that 23 page there was some discussion. You'll see that Mr. 24 Carson -- Inspector Carson -- is trying to arrange for 25 Vince George who you know he knows all the players down
191 there. And -- and is this in -- in terms of -- in 2 reference to the negotiations that were attempting to be 3 undertaken or was this as part of the identification 4 aspect that perhaps Mr. Vince George could assist with? 5 A: I believe he was discussed in -- for 6 both options. 7 Q: All right. And if we could must move 8 beyond that to the next page at page 66 in the middle of 9 the page, Mr. Parkin, right after Inspector Carson says, 10 "That's right", the entry is, Parkin: 11 "Okay. Your line, are you on the 12 direct line now? 13 [And he says] Yes." 14 And you ask him: 15 "Is this taped also? 16 [And you say] Yes." 17 All right? And as I had asked you earlier 18 with respect to your notes, your handwritten notes of -- 19 on page 27 under the date of September the 5th -- 20 A: Yes, sir? 21 Q: -- you see that -- I'd asked you 22 earlier, confirm taping of private line. Is it possible 23 that this entry on your notes of September the 5th came 24 from this discussion of -- of 11:37 as opposed to where 25 you do have it recorded under the 10:10 conversation?
201 A: That's possible. 2 Q: All right. And just lastly to finish 3 that point, sir, on page 67 at the bottom of the page 4 there's a reference to Daryl Smith who is with the 5 Ministry of Natural Resources media. Do you see that? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And that perhaps might explain the 8 entry on your page 27 of your handwritten notes under the 9 10:10 entry of September the 5th, the reference to Daryl 10 Smith? 11 A: That's correct, sir. 12 Q: Okay. Well, let's go back to this 13 inquiry that you had made as to whether or not that this 14 line was also being taped. 15 And perhaps you might just tell us about 16 what was the practice of that day insofar as recording of 17 -- of OPP lines and that sort of thing? 18 A: Well, going back to the days when I 19 was an incident commander it wasn't standard practice to 20 tape all of our conversations. Now, today we've 21 transitioned into a world where there's a lot of 22 accessibility to that type of equipment. When I was 23 doing it, we didn't have the availability of so many cell 24 phones, pagers, and taping equipment. 25 What basically happens here is when I'm
211 talking to John, what was practice when I was managing an 2 incident, because the local lines would very soon get out 3 into the community and if it was a high profile event 4 they certainly would always end up with the media and 5 other interested persons. 6 So eventually what would happen is when 7 you were trying to get a hold of somebody that you wanted 8 to talk to in the Command Post which was usually a 9 detachment, sometimes you didn't even have the luxury of 10 a detachment you might be out in the field, the lines 11 would be all tied up. 12 So it wasn't unusual for us to get a 13 couple more lines installed and when we did that we would 14 restrict where those numbers went to so that we could 15 always call and get a hold of somebody. So they were -- 16 and basically we would have those lines installed at the 17 time of the incident. 18 Those numbers were kept private so that we 19 could have direct communication with whoever we wanted to 20 talk to and never have difficulty getting through or 21 busied out, because again, going back to my day the -- 22 the communication system quickly got overwhelmed. 23 When I talked to John and he first told me 24 that some of the lines were being taped that was unusual 25 to me. We didn't normally tape our administrative calls
221 to one another in Detachments. 2 So that's why I asked about the lines and 3 that was the only reason. 4 Q: Okay. And if you can see you've 5 asked -- you've asked him "Is this line taped" and he 6 confirms that and you ask him: 7 "So all your private line is taped?" 8 He says: 9 "Right?. 10 "Command post?" 11 "Yes." 12 I take it that that's in reference to the 13 command post line was also taped? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: All right. 16 "Forest Detachment?" 17 And he says: 18 "No, only at the command trailer." 19 And your response: 20 "Only the command trailer. We're 21 probably going to need a line at some 22 point where we can talk to you." 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: All right. Again, your explanation 25 is, is that those lines that you had previously referred
231 to may get busy. Is that -- was that your explanation? 2 A: That can certainly happen, yes. 3 Q: All right. And the purpose of 4 recording police lines, what was the logic behind that? 5 And I know that you'd mentioned that it was just starting 6 to come on stream. 7 A: Yeah, we -- we transitioned over the 8 years in the way we deal with incidents. Today, 9 virtually everything at a major incident is taped. 10 When I was doing incidents, you didn't 11 have that availability. You always usually had a scribe 12 -- somebody with you trying to write notes and capture 13 what was going on as best they could. 14 But clearly the -- in this era with the 15 availability of all the equipment, the technology that's 16 here, it's just standard operating practice now that 17 virtually everything in the command post or the TOC is 18 taped. 19 Q: Okay, sure. And in 1995 the purpose 20 for taping those conversations would be the same as 21 today, would it not? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that was to ensure the accuracy 24 of the record. 25 A: If that was the only issue that you
241 were dealing with, correct. 2 Q: All right. Would there be any other 3 purposes beyond ensuring an accurate record? 4 A: Well sometimes during an incident you 5 just want to -- blue sky issues, bounce things off of one 6 another, or you may even talk about things, depending on 7 the time of the incident, not related to the incident. 8 Q: Okay. I -- I think I may have asked 9 that question improperly and I -- and perhaps I can -- I 10 can ask this again. 11 Is there any other reason for recording 12 conversations beyond ensuring that you have an accurate 13 record, even in 1995? 14 A: I'm not sure I follow this question, 15 sir. 16 Q: I'm sorry. Maybe I'll just withdraw 17 that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It seems 19 like a question that the Witness could answer if you 20 asked it again. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: Well, let -- well let me take another 24 stab at this. 25 You've already indicated that -- that you
251 were coming into a transition with the advent of newer 2 technologies to start recording all of the police 3 communications in an incident, especially a high profile 4 incident, correct? 5 A: There was more availability to do 6 that, yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. And the reason for doing 8 that was what? The reason for recording -- 9 A: To capture the conversations. 10 Q: For the purposes of? 11 A: Whatever they may be used for in the 12 future. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: But if I wanted to talk to John on 15 some unrelated issue, that -- whatever it might be, that 16 we would have free-line where I could get into the 17 Detachment and get a hold of him, even if he was out in 18 the command post tied up with other work. 19 Q: All right. If you go to the bottom 20 of that -- the bottom of that page of the transcript. 21 We're at page 66, so that same conversation, and again, 22 it's still on the -- on the issue of recorded lines. 23 He tells you that -- this is the last line 24 that I had mentioned to you, Mr. Parkin where you say: 25 "Only the command trailer. We're
261 probably going to need a line from time 2 to time so where we can talk to you." 3 And I guess the question that I would ask 4 you first of all is, who is 'we' in terms of 'if we need 5 to talk to you'. You're referring to yourself and...? 6 A: It could be myself, it could be Chief 7 Superintendent Coles. 8 Q: Okay. And the kinds of discussions 9 that would require another line other than a recorded 10 line, what would those entail? 11 A: Personnel support, logistics, 12 discussion how are you doing, how are things going. 13 Q: But those are things that you could 14 discuss just as easily on a recorded line, are they not? 15 A: Yes, they could. This had nothing to 16 do with John Carson, this was my questioning of him. 17 What we probably just had was a different mentality in 18 the way we did incident command and at the end of the day 19 the tapes were still on and all the conversation are 20 there. 21 Q: So if we continue on page 67, the 22 upper portion of that transcription again just completes 23 that dialogue with respect to the taped conversations and 24 Inspector Carson indicates to you that he would try and 25 I'm paraphrasing here, you'll certainly correct me if I'm
271 wrong, Mr. Parkin, that he would try to get to the 2 Command -- pardon me, into the detachment office in order 3 to call you on an unrecorded line? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: There is then a conversation about 6 the media relations and I take it that Doug Babbitt is -- 7 was with the OPP media relations? 8 A: Doug Babbitt at the time, I believe 9 he was a Community Services Officer who would take on the 10 role of dealing with the media. 11 Q: I see. And you see your -- your next 12 question there; you say: 13 "Is he dealing with Marilyn Murray or 14 Media Relations?" 15 And who would Marilyn Murray be? 16 A: Marilyn Murray is a civilian. She 17 was employed by the -- and still is employed by the 18 Ontario Provincial Police. She had expertise in -- in 19 the news area, the media area, and at that time she was 20 in charge of that section of our general headquarters. 21 She would be someone that the field people 22 who were dealing with the media, if they were uncertain 23 as to what they should be releasing or saying, they could 24 call her and she would offer her expertise. 25 Q: All right. Thank you for that. And
281 if you just carry on you'll see you -- you then make some 2 comments: 3 "Okay, okay. I'll call him [Then] 4 because we want to make sure that he 5 does that because we all want to make 6 sure is that MNR doesn't start making 7 press releases that we're not aware 8 of." 9 So you -- you wanted to make sure that 10 there was some coordination as between the Ontario 11 Provincial Police and what other agencies might be doing? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. And that's the reference 14 then to Daryl Smith just beyond that? 15 A: I believe so, yes. 16 Q: And Daryl Smith was with MNR media; 17 is that correct? 18 A: I believe that that was his role. He 19 was with the MNR but I'm not certain of that. 20 Q: Thank you. And at the top quarter 21 page of page 68 there's then a discussion about the 22 warrants that were being obtained. 23 Do you see where that starts? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
291 Q: And I guess I should ask you, Mr. 2 Parkin, are you asking him -- you'll see right after he 3 says: 4 "Okay, Peter -- or I believe Peter 5 Sturdy would be the guy." 6 And your comment: 7 Okay. Okay. So basically that's -- 8 the warrant's being obtained, trees are 9 being chopped down and the main gate -- 10 that's your information anyway." 11 And I -- I take it you're simply 12 confirming the information. 13 A: Trying to make sure I'm -- I would 14 suggest, I'm trying to make sure I'm accurate. 15 Q: And Inspector Carson confirms that 16 for you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then he goes on to say: 19 "So they could see nobody approached 20 them. What we may attempt to do here 21 in a little while is maybe send in a 22 half a dozen or ten (10) guys just to 23 walk along the beach and see, you know, 24 how they react to that. But I'd just 25 like to have the cover of the
301 helicopter so that they would have an 2 eye on who's moving where inside the 3 Park." 4 Okay? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And that is tactical information? 7 That is operational talk if I can put it that way? 8 A: I agree. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I believe -- and he's just thinking 11 out loud. 12 Q: Okay. And similarly when you ask, 13 What about -- what's going out on the water and he tells 14 you that there is -- what type of craft are out there? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And that there would be another 17 craft, perhaps a larger one for the night-time operation? 18 That's also similarly -- 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: -- operational type discussions? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Yeah, okay. At the top of page 69, 23 Mr. Parkin, there's then a discussion about the situation 24 in British Columbia. Inspector Carson asks you: 25 "Any -- anything on the news, ah, from
311 BC at all?" 2 And I take it that's in relation to 3 Gustafsen Lake? 4 A: I believe that that would be what he 5 was referring to. 6 Q: Where there was an armed occupation 7 by Aboriginal people, as I understand it? 8 A: That's correct, sir. 9 Q: Okay. And you told him that there 10 were shots fired last night. Do you see that? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And you report that that one seems to 13 be escalating. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: Can you tell us where you got that 16 information from, if you can recall today? 17 A: I know that we had Inspector Jim 18 Hutchison; he had gone out to visit with the RCMP and to 19 take a look at the Gustafsen Lake situation. And whether 20 I was talking to him directly or in another conversation 21 that I had some time during the day with general 22 headquarters, in any case it would have come to me 23 through someone, probably from Inspector Hutchison, but I 24 can't recall for sure. 25 Q: Okay. And that information, that
321 would have probably been passed to you by Inspector 2 Hutchison, did that have any role in the decision making 3 insofar as you were concerned? 4 A: Not as far as I was concerned, sir. 5 Q: Do you know whether it played a role 6 in terms of the management of the police operations at 7 the Park as far as you know? 8 A: Not to my knowledge, sir. 9 Q: And then there's a discussion about 10 whether or not there were any weapons seen among the 11 occupiers at the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 12 Again, I'm paraphrasing this -- this 13 portion of the conversation. 14 A: Correct, sir. 15 Q: I think it's acknowledged to you by 16 Inspector Carson that there was the sighting of a hunting 17 rifle, or he says, I believe -- 18 "There's hunting rifles in the Park and 19 there's no doubt about it." 20 He was pretty certain about that? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I think the essence -- 25 A: Correct, sir.
331 Q: -- the essence of the information is 2 that there was a native who attempted to take a rifle out 3 of the trunk of a vehicle but was told by one of his own 4 not to do so and it was put away. 5 A: That's correct, sir. My hesitation 6 was I was looking for the part where you were talking 7 about the hunting rifles. 8 Q: Right. And by all means, please take 9 -- please take as much time as you need to confirm these 10 things, all right? 11 A: Thank you. 12 Q: At the bottom of that page, there's 13 the discussion, then, about negotiations. You're asking: 14 "Have we tried to establish any 15 negotiation, any discussion?" 16 Do -- 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: -- see that? And then you're told 19 that there's potentially or there is to be a meeting at 20 noon, but that opportunity hasn't arisen yet? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And I take it that that's, given the 23 time that this conversation is taking place, it is still 24 yet before noon? 25 A: It would appear so, sir.
341 Q: And if we can turn to the top of the 2 next page, and this is again in reference to the attempts 3 at negotiations the previous night. 4 And Inspector Carson, again I'm 5 paraphrasing, informs you that because of the use of 6 alcohol which is described in the transcript as, Awful 7 lot of alcohol involved, those negotiations really didn't 8 go anywhere? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: All right. And so your comment is, 11 "Well, they were all pissed up, eh?" and he agrees with 12 you that that's right. 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: All right. And then the last two (2) 15 items which appear at page 71 that I just want to draw 16 your attention to, Mr. Parkin, there's a -- a comment 17 where you say, the -- approximately the middle of page 18 71: 19 "All right. We've got Billy Watkins 20 out there to pick up a copy of the 21 operational folder." 22 And I take it that that is Operation 23 Maple? 24 A: Correct, sir. 25 Q: All right. And lastly, we have --
351 that again I want to draw your attention to, is Inspector 2 Carson tells you: 3 "Okay, we'll work on negotiations and 4 particularly where we're going to 5 strive for now and I'll call you back 6 by two o'clock." 7 A: Correct. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And if I can just take you back to 12 your -- to your handwritten notes for a moment at page 13 28? 14 At the top of page 28 there's the entry 15 "11:45, Carson"? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. And can we agree that 18 this portion under 11:45, those entries relate to the 19 conversation, the transcript of which I had just taken 20 you through? 21 A: Correct, sir. 22 Q: All right. Is there anything in 23 there that -- that doesn't correspond to the transcript 24 that I've just taken you through? 25
361 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I don't see anything, sir. 4 Q: All right. Thank you. At Tab 17 of 5 the binder of documents in front of you there's an e-mail 6 from yourself to Nancy Mansell and Mr. Duffield, 7 Inspector Fox, dated September 5th of 1995. It's Inquiry 8 Document 1001101 and it's Exhibit P-511. 9 And you report in that e-mail that 10 negotiations have stalled due to the fact that the 11 occupiers had consumed quite a bit of alcohol and were 12 very hostile. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And that -- and you go on to report 22 that Inspector Carson hopes to open the lines of 23 communication shortly and that's in reference to the 24 12:00 noon anticipated meeting that he had reported to 25 you?
371 A: I believe so, sir. 2 Q: All right. Now, did you have any 3 contact with the Commissioner's office that day that you 4 can recall regarding the occupation, Mr. Parkin? 5 A: Not that I can recall, sir. 6 Q: Did you have any conversation with 7 anybody at Queen's Park that you can recall? 8 A: Queen's Park? 9 Q: Yes, sir. 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: All right. Your next notes indicate 12 at 14:35 hours, and perhaps you can just take us through 13 that if you would please, just to end of the warrants 14 aspect of that? 15 A: Mark and Brad Seltzer? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: "Went to the Park. No on came. Went 18 to the Military Camp. Bert Manning 19 came out and said, Burial Ground. 20 Appeared disorganized. Wanted OPP 21 roadblocks taken. We declined. Video 22 not covered. Grand Bend. Emergency or 23 regular injunction two (2) weeks. 24 Elgin Austin access to light armoured 25 vehicle from GM. Not comfortable with
381 getting involved. Tom Coffey, GM, 2 looking into getting one. Warrant -- 3 warrants three (3), Roderick George, 4 Stuart George, and David Abraham 5 George; possession weapons, assault 6 police officer, mischief." 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Do you -- 9 Q: So -- 10 A: -- want me to continue? 11 Q: No, no, that's -- that's fine. And I 12 just want to ask you some questions about that particular 13 entry at 14:35. In non-military time that's 2:35 in the 14 afternoon? 15 A: Correct, sir. 16 Q: All right. And as I look through the 17 various conversations and the transcripts that we have 18 that are recorded there is no recorded conversation for 19 that. 20 Do you agree with that? 21 A: If you don't have one, I agree with 22 that, sir. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. If I can 24 refer you to Tab 19 of the Book of Documents -- pardon 25 me, 18, I'm sorry, of the Book of Documents in front of
391 you which are scribe notes. They've been previously 2 entered as Exhibit 3 P-426, that is Inquiry Document 1002419. 4 If I can take you to page 37 of those 5 scribe notes, there's an entry at 14:35 hours which would 6 seem to correspond with the entry on your handwritten 7 notes of 14:35 hours. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. And do you see that entry 13 at 14:35 hours? And we have one up on the screen. It 14 says: 15 "Inspector Carson contacted 16 Superintendent Parkin to update him. 17 Updated on tanks, press release by the 18 Town of Bosanquet and contact with the 19 Natives." 20 A: Correct, sir. 21 Q: All right. And can you tell us 22 whether that phone call, I mean the time certainly 23 correspond, but can you tell us whether in fact that 24 update is -- is what you have noted in your -- in your 25 own notes on page 28 under that same time?
401 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: The tanks that you were updated on 3 for example, that would be the reference in your 4 handwritten notes to Elgin Austin, access to light 5 armoured vehicles from GM; is that it? 6 A: Yes, I think the word 'tanks' is the 7 wrong terminology there. 8 Q: But that's a scribe note and -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- I certainly don't suggest in any 11 way that that is your doing, all right? 12 A: No. 13 Q: The notation about Bert Manning 14 coming out and said "burial ground" can you recall 15 anything beyond what you've indicated right there? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Do you know where Inspector Carson 18 was when he called you at this particular time to update 19 you? 20 A: In the Forest area, sir. 21 Q: All right. He didn't tell you for 22 example that he was now in the detachment, he was on a 23 secure line, anything like that? 24 A: If he did -- 25 Q: Do you have any recall of that?
411 A: -- if he did I don't recall. 2 Q: All right, thank you. Perhaps we can 3 then turn nextly to the conversation that's recorded -- 4 the transcript of which first of all is at Tab Number 3, 5 the date is September the 5th and it's time stamped at 6 16:04 hours. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Tab 24? 11 Q: Tab -- it's Tab 3 of the audio -- of 12 the audio brief in front of you. 13 A: I've got it now, sir. 14 Q: All right. And just before we refer 15 directly to that transcript, I just wand to take you to 16 your handwritten notes at page 28. There's an entry that 17 starts at the bottom of that page at 16:15 hours and 18 continues on page 29, just the top of the page. 19 A: Correct. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And can you tell us if that entry at 24 16:15 hours corresponds to your notes of this 25 conversation that you're having with John Carson on
421 September 5th at 16:04 hours? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And certainly I don't means 6 corresponds verbatim. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: All right, thank you. Let's maybe go 12 then to the beginning of that transcript. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: It commences at page 155 and it looks 17 like Inspector Carson is calling and he is asking for you 18 and he's asked to wait for a bit, and eventually you come 19 onto the -- onto the line at page 157, at the top of page 20 157. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Okay. And you were getting 23 essentially what I -- what I take to be an up -- an 24 update, another briefing on this and perhaps you can just 25 confirm that for us.
431 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: One of the first conversations you 6 have at the bottom of page 157 is the installation of 7 various monitoring equipment? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Okay. You were hoping that that 10 could be done? I expect you were both hoping that that 11 equipment could be set up and running? 12 A: Correct, sir. 13 Q: And there were some difficulties with 14 that which obviously didn't please you? 15 A: Well, this is an area that I wouldn't 16 have overall direction of. These are specialty -- expert 17 people that do technical installations, so I don't know 18 their job. But at the end of the day, I know from being 19 an incident commander what they're capable of doing, with 20 respect to video and audio monitoring. 21 So you request those types of 22 installations, but then the experts have to do that and 23 they work out of general headquarters for another bureau. 24 And because we don't have the expertise our self to do 25 it, we have to rely on them getting it done for us.
441 Q: And did you make any direct inquiries 2 with technical services as to the installation of any of 3 this equipment or -- or asking them if they could 4 expedite things? 5 A: I may have had discussions. I really 6 don't recall directly anybody that I spoke to. Most of 7 that would have been done by Inspector Carson. 8 Q: Thank you. The conversation then 9 continues at the bottom of page 158 and you are informed 10 that GM Diesel was not prepared to participate with us, 11 and I take it that's again in reference to the light 12 armoured vehicles that were being attempted to be 13 secured -- 14 A: That's correct, sir. 15 Q: -- or -- pardon me, okay, thank you. 16 The conversation continues on the -- on 17 the next page that evidently there was some desire on the 18 part of GM to go through some sort of a protocol process 19 before they -- 20 A: That's -- 21 Q: Before they were willing -- 22 A: That's -- 23 Q: Yeah. I'm sorry, I was talking over 24 you. 25 A: I'm sorry. That's what I was being
451 told, yes, sir. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And at the bottom of page 166, 7 there's then this discussion about the media and 8 Inspector Carson is telling you that this is what 9 appeared on the media, that is identifying the charge of 10 people. 11 "The local news here just went off at 12 four o'clock." 13 A: What page are you on, sir? 14 Q: I'm on page 166, I'm sorry. 15 MR. CAMERON NEIL: 161. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: 161, pardon me. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 THE WITNESS: Can I hear the question 21 again, sir? 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Again, the discussion is about the 25 media that is -- that is out there.
461 A: Yes, sir? 2 Q: Something had come on the news at 3 four o'clock, that the release from the Town of Bosanquet 4 there took up a lot of it? He's telling you that -- 5 A: Yes, sir? 6 Q: -- there was a lot of public 7 attention on this issue; it's -- it's becoming higher 8 profile? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then you go on to discuss the 11 checkpoints at page 162 and beyond that. And Inspector 12 Carson advises you that as far as he knows it's simply a 13 checkpoint. People are being asked for identification 14 and as far as he knows there's no searching of vehicles. 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And at page 164 Inspector Carson 21 tells you at the second full entry after your -- you 22 answer, "All righty": 23 "Carson: So that's about where we 24 are. Have I talked to you since the 25 guys got back? Yes, I did.
471 Parkin: From Bert Manning and them? 2 Carson: Yeah, yeah. So we haven't 3 had anymore discussion since that 4 time?" 5 And I take it that that was the inquiry 6 about what happened with this meeting that was supposed 7 to have occurred at 12:00 noon that day? 8 A: I believe so. 9 Q: All right. The discussion then is 10 about the helicopter and about when that -- when that 11 resource might be available? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: All right. And then beyond that you 14 have discussions which are, I'm going to suggest to you, 15 are essentially tactical or operational issues that 16 you're being informed on. 17 A: Correct, sir. 18 Q: If you turn to page 168 of that 19 transcript you see where you say: 20 "I agree with you but it sets up a big 21 problem for you." 22 And there's something unidentified beyond 23 that?. And Inspector Carson replies: 24 "Oh, I know, I know, but until we can 25 get control of that perimeter and the
481 Park itself we're at loss." 2 And you reply: 3 "I don't mind it so much in the daytime 4 but at night." 5 Okay. And I take it that that's an 6 expression of concern on your part with respect to the 7 perimeter and being able to control the perimeter 8 especially at night? 9 Can you tell us anything -- anything 10 further beyond that? 11 A: Again I'm sorry. What page are we 12 on? 13 Q: I'm sorry, I'm at page 168. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: All right. And what was your -- what 19 was the -- the concern that you seemed or appeared to be 20 expressing there? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Most likely I was concerned about our 25 officers being on the road, the traffic, stopping
491 vehicles. 2 Q: All right. And then lastly if we can 3 turn to the -- to the next page, right at the top of the 4 page Inspector Carson says: 5 "No, I appreciate that because you have 6 -- you talking to Ron Fox?" 7 You reply: 8 "Yeah, I have been. 9 CARSON: Yeah, yeah. That Blockade 10 Committee, sounds like there's some 11 waffling going on there by some 12 individuals." 13 And you reply: 14 "Yeah, and apparently they want to go 15 for the regular injunction." 16 I guess the only question I have for you 17 about that, what was your understanding of the type, 18 nature and type of injunctive relief that was being 19 sought? 20 A: Well, just that they would serve 21 notice, attend the hearing, both sides would give some 22 explanation as to why an injunction was being sought and 23 wait for a decision, which may have taken -- I don't know 24 exactly how long but it would've taken some time to put 25 together.
501 Q: All right. You had some 2 understanding though of -- of a -- there was some 3 difference in -- in the kinds of injunction that could be 4 obtained. A regular injunction or an emergency 5 injunction I believe you -- you used those -- 6 A: The terminology 'emergency 7 injunction' was out there, yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Or an ex parte injunction. I think 10 both terms were used. 11 Q: All right. And if you can just go 12 down a couple of lines after Mr. Carson says: 13 "And we're prepared to live with that." 14 And you replied: 15 "Depends on who you listen to 16 apparently. The uh -- the -- the people 17 from uh the 18 Government are saying uh, and you know 19 why don't we treat them just like a 20 bunch of bikers." 21 That's -- that's your comment. Do you 22 know where you would've got that information from? 23 A: In discussion with somebody. I 24 don't -- 25 Q: You don't have a recall today?
511 A: I don't have an actual recall of who 2 that person might have been. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: But I do say I was talking to Ron 5 Fox, it could have been Ron Fox. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. And at page 7 170, just the next page over, you're continuing with this 8 discussion and Inspector Carson says: 9 "But -- but if they're prepared for 10 that, then let's just get the emergency 11 injunction and get on with life." 12 You reply: 13 "Yep." 14 And Inspector Carson says: 15 "You know, if -- if that's their 16 feeling about it, I mean, let's have 17 the appropriate support in line and 18 deal with it." 19 Okay? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. And you agreed with that 22 approach up to that point, obviously? 23 A: Yes. An injunction was something 24 that we had wanted prior to and all through the process. 25 Q: Okay. Then you go on to have the
521 discussion about Inspector Carson's relief and that would 2 have been Inspector Dale Linton? 3 A: Correct, sir. 4 Q: And you'll see that at the end of 5 that conversation, he reports to you that Inspector 6 Linton would be coming around at about seven o'clock. I 7 believe he says that just at the bottom of that page. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: All right. And again, just going 10 back to your own notes at page 29 of your -- of your 11 handwritten notes, the last entry that you have in there 12 is that Inspector Linton is coming on at 19:00 hours and 13 that would correspond with that. 14 A: Correct, sir. 15 Q: All right. Did you have any further 16 conversations regarding the Ipperwash matter on that date 17 with anybody? 18 A: I'm sure I probably did but I don't 19 recall. 20 Q: And you don't have any -- any record 21 of that? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: Did you attend at the command centre 24 at the -- or at the Ipperwash area on September the 5th? 25 A: Yes, sir.
531 Q: And you've also indicated that you 2 had continued to provide informational updates to the 3 Commissioner's office on that date and to receive, 4 similarly, updates from Inspector Ron Fox. 5 A: Correct, sir. 6 Q: All right. And did you know at that 7 point that the Incident Commander had -- and I -- I may 8 have asked you this yesterday and I apologize, Mr. 9 Parkin, but did you -- did you know that the Incident 10 Commander John Carson had direct contact with Ron Fox? 11 A: I was aware of that, yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. Did you have any concerns 13 about the propriety of that? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: You were concerned at did express 16 certain concerns however about the kinds of information 17 that seemed to be making to the -- to the Minister's 18 office faster than you hoped that it might? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And -- and you eventually learned 21 that it was coming through sources other than -- than 22 your members? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: All right. And I think as you had 25 told us yesterday, and we've also heard from Chief Coles
541 on this point, that eventually Inspector Fox was called 2 and was told that maybe he shouldn't be contacting the 3 Incident Commander directly. 4 A: I believe Chief Coles made that -- 5 that call. 6 Q: Okay. And did you have any input in 7 making that call at all? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: I think you told us yesterday that 10 you had a sufficient comfort level with Mr. Fox's 11 competence that you weren't concerned about the kinds of 12 information that he would pass along? 13 A: That's correct. I'd worked with Ron 14 Fox since early in my career as a constable. We worked 15 at the same detachment together on occasion and then our 16 career paths went different ways, but we still obviously 17 met each other; a very professional police officer and I 18 knew -- I had full confidence in his ability to do his 19 job. 20 Q: All right. And similarly you had 21 that same full confidence in the incident commander, in 22 John Carson? 23 I think you've confirmed that for us as 24 well yesterday? 25 A: Absolutely. Yes, sir.
551 Q: All right. You were informed at some 2 point, Mr. Linton (sic), that -- that there was some 3 difficulty of any individual from within the Park 4 identifying themselves as a spokesperson? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. Did you know at that 7 point whether the OPP had identified negotiators? 8 A: Negotiators were part of the plan of 9 Project Maple. 10 Q: I want to turn next to a conversation 11 between yourself and Inspector Linton. The time on that 12 is September the 5th at 21:53 hours. 13 And, Mr. Commissioner, this is one of 14 those that I would intend to have played at this moment. 15 And perhaps what I would ask is that we simply go ahead 16 and play this and then I would, rather than interrupting 17 the playing of the recording, then ask whatever questions 18 I might have following that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you all 20 set up to play it right now? 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah, we are. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW)
561 Region 4 2 Supt. Anthony (Tony) Parkin and Inspector Dale Linton 3 September 5, 1995 21:53 hrs 4 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 5 [DL = Inspector Dale Linton] 6 7 AP: Hello. 8 DL: Get the news on yet? 9 AP: Ah, actually I was just reading the local 10 bulletin news as I was channel flipping 11 there -about an arrest? 12 DL: Yeah. 13 AP: That was all. 14 DL: We're not on there? 15 AP: Well - hold on - what ah - let's see - 16 I've got the news coming in here - 17 headline news?DL:Are we? 18 AP: Well I don't know. 19 DL: Well I heard the Minister of Natural 20 Resources was on the local news here at 21 six o'clock saying that they wouldn't 22 tolerate this but we - we heard the rumour 23 that the Solicitor General was going to be 24 on and he wasn't but ah - anyways ah - 25
571 AP: I don't know which - but of course its 2 only ten o'clock eh. 3 DL: Yeah. 4 AP: And the local news comes on at - 5 DL: Eleven. 6 AP: Hold - hold - oh. 7 DL: Anyways, everything's quiet here. 8 AP: Yeah. 9 DL: We've got One and Two ERT teams. We've got 10 twenty-six members on the ground. 11 AP: Ah huh. 12 DL: ...Three and Six are back at the 13 Bluewater... 14 AP: Did you make an arrest tonight? 15 DL: No. 16 AP: Okay, see - something... The local cable 17 channel - you know how they print out the 18 news scan -the local news? 19 DL: Uh huh. 20 AP: They've got it on there as one of the 21 Georges' being arrested. 22 DL: No arrests tonight. 23 AP: No arrests, okay. 24 DL: No. We've got four arrest warrants. 25 AP: Yeah, well that's probably what they've
581 misinterpreted. 2 DL: But ah - no arrests. 3 AP: Okay. 4 DL: Umm - so we're you know we've got 26 ERT 5 out same location. We've got four 6 checkpoints. Ahh - so we've got it locked 7 down pretty well. We've got eight right at 8 the - at the ah - Army Camp Road at 9 Twenty-One there... 10 AP: Ah huh. 11 DL: .... the main gate and there's a fair bit 12 of action in and out of there. But no 13 problems. But they're recording all of the 14 information on vehicle check logs. And we 15 got four at the other locations, one 16 pretty well down Army Camp Road, down near 17 Matheson, and another one over on East 18 Park Drive with four guys at it that is 19 right where our TOC is. 20 AP: Mmhmm. 21 DL: And the other one down at - well actually 22 we moved it in a little bit from Ipperwash 23 Road towards the TOC and its pretty well 24 sealed off. And that ah - that St. John's 25 Ambulance - Command Post, that's great.
591 Have you seen that before? 2 AP: No, I haven't. 3 DL: We - John got access to that and we 4 dragged it up here and its - well actually 5 its got its own little - little tractor 6 unit, tractor trailer unit. 7 AP: Oh yeah? 8 DL: Its -its got to be about a thirty footer. 9 So Command Post, radios, computers, great 10 little deal. So we put the Vitrux aerial 11 up and - just happy campers down there. 12 Anyways we've got the TRU team arrive from 13 London about 6- 6:30 type of thing. 14 They're all briefed and they're going to 15 stay at the Pinery and Kent's here, Ken 16 Deane is a secondary. 17 AP: Yeah? 18 DL: Ahhh - 19 AP: 'Cause the TRU team's there basically just 20 to... 21 DL: Yeah - they're - they're gonna stay at the 22 Pinery and we're only going to deploy 'em 23 if need be, they're going to have no 24 assigned duty... 25 AP: Right.
601 DL: ...and we get - get to shooting, or get 2 something really active we'll activate 3 them and then back in there, they're out 4 of sight. But all the guys are - all the 5 ERT guys are eating down in there. They're 6 going back in. They've got their cooks 7 brought in. I guess the game plan is that 8 ah - ah - we're going to keep the Two 9 District TRU guys here and if there's any 10 calls in One or Two District - 11 AP: Well, they can still go to them. 12 DL: Well, I would prefer they didn't. I think 13 we'd be pretty - you know we'd be - I 14 would prefer to send the Barrie guys. 15 AP: Bring somebody else down? Yeah. 16 DL: Yeah. 17 AP: Yeah, whatever. 18 DL: And ah - I guess if we - There's supposed 19 to be an injunction tomorrow. 20 AP: Mmhmm. 21 DL: As early as tomorrow... 22 AP: As early as tomorrow? 23 DL: Yeah. 24 AP: Oh that's a change - 'cause today when we 25 were talking to them they were going for -
611 they hadn't even [inaudible]... 2 DL: To look at a twenty-four hour injunction? 3 AP: Yeah, the emergency or the standard. And 4 they were looking at the standard 5 injunction which is two weeks. But that's 6 good. 7 DL: Errr - Les Kobyashi was in tonight. He'd 8 been talking to Peter Sturdy. And Peter 9 was tapping away on it and he was ah - 10 thinking of probably getting it signed 11 tomorrow morning and taken before a judge. 12 AP: Yeah 13 DL: So they were thinking probably -maybe as 14 early as midday tomorrow. 15 AP: Oh! 16 DL: And um - so I guess at that point in time 17 we'll have to make a decision with MNR - 18 you know - what we want to do and how we 19 want to do it. Now what we've got 20 happening tonight is Mark Dew is - is 21 doing up a map of vulnerable points. And 22 where -where they've dragged cars in, 23 they've got some cement barriers against 24 gates. And there were some vulnerable 25 spots too. So he's just going to do a
621 little - a little diagram of you know - 2 the strength and weaknesses of the 3 perimeter. 4 AP: Right. 5 DL: And ah - the other thing of interest I 6 guess is the MNR helicopter landed about 7 seven o'clock. 8 AP: Okay, I got that one eh. 9 DL: It'd come in from Sudbury I believe... 10 AP: (interrupting) Yeah, it got weathered in 11 somewhere, [inaudible]... 12 DL: They had to fly the guy in from Dryden to 13 get in the helicopter but its here and its 14 just parked out back of the office next 15 farm (?), its about a hundred metres back 16 and so we're - there's no problem with 17 that. But they did a fly-over - ahhh - 18 seven-thirty, eight o'clock type of thing, 19 with George Speck. They got some -some ah 20 - video and they're gonna fly in the - 21 errr- fly in - they're gonna bring in the 22 ah - oh - the machine that the TRU team's 23 got in London - I forget what you call it 24 but it takes your videos and it still- 25 frames them...?
631 AP: Yup. 2 DL: ...and that's comin' in and not many 3 people in there. Six or eight cars 4 basically on the main road. They got a 5 couple small fires burning now, like just 6 keep-warm type of thing and ah... 7 AP: Yeah. 8 DL: So no - no real action. Ahh - couple 9 little verbal things say out on the road 10 but nothin' - 11 AP: Yeah. 12 DL: ...nothin' serious eh. Ummm, so short of 13 that I guess we're waiting for seven- 14 o'clock in the morning to arrive. 15 AP: Well yeah. Well hopefully you'll have a 16 quiet night... but ya - you never know. 17 DL: No. (laughs) 18 AP: (laughs) You never know. 19 DL: No but I guess if ah - ya know, we'll 20 have to talk at - considerable length - if 21 - you know when that injunction comes in. 22 How we're gonna go about movin' in there 23 and ... 24 AP: (interrupting) Well, oh you're definitely 25 right there. We're gonna have to take a
641 look at that because that's - that's - 2 DL: (interrupting) Because that's when we'll 3 be getting down to the crunch. But ah - 4 AP: Well, that's right. And we've got - you 5 know. We're kind of looking at two 6 options. I mean you've got ah - Because of 7 the thing that's going on out west, and 8 the length of time that's dragged on that, 9 you know. They may have some security that 10 we wouldn't go in... 11 DL: Yeah. 12 AP: ...So therefore we may still have an 13 element of surprise that we could use if 14 we [inaudible] the dynamic thing. And then 15 the other is to kind of go up to the front 16 door at ah - you know eleven o'clock or 17 something and say hey this is the 18 injunction and you're out of here and try 19 to do it peacefully. 20 DL: Yeah. 21 AP: And - so those are the decisions we're 22 going to have to make. 23 DL: The ah the other thing of interest I guess 24 is the armoured vehicles and of course 25 that's what they're using out west.
651 AP: Right. 2 DL: ...Because their guys got pinned down 3 yesterday on a changeover I guess. 4 AP: Yeah, yeah. More shooting, yeah. 5 DL: ...But its my understanding from John, he 6 did all the - the negotiations. It was my 7 understanding from him that he has access 8 to one through London Police Service who 9 work with GM Diesel down there...? 10 AP: Yeah but that - that fell through. Ah - 11 London - 12 DL: (interrupting) Well no. As of - 13 AP: Something new come up? 14 DL: Well, as of seven o'clock tonight - 15 AP: (interrupting) Yup! Something new came up! 16 (laughs) 17 DL: ...London reluctantly had said they will 18 get it and they will supply two people to 19 operate it. 20 AP: How? 21 DL: With great reluctance. Umm - however, he 22 went ahead and he made plans with the 23 military to get us two vehicles. And we 24 were finding - we've identified four of 25 our people who can drive 'em. Former
661 military people. 2 AP: Uh huh. 3 DL: And ah - I think the plan was by maybe 4 sometime late tomorrow to try to get them 5 and drive them over to London on floats or 6 something. But ah - giving that some more 7 thought, I would say that if they're 8 mobile they come right to - right down 9 here. I mean why would you leave them in 10 London. 11 AP: Yeah. 12 DL: You know if we have a problem where we 13 have to get somebody out, we sure as hell 14 don't want to wait an hour and a half to 15 get ah - the armoured vehicles down here. 16 AP: Hmm. 17 DL: So I'll talk to John in the morning about- 18 about his connections and ah - 19 AP: Yeah. 20 DL: ...And they should be on floats right-you 21 know here so we can drive them down 22 Matheson Drive and drop 'em off and away 23 they go. You know - 'cause shit if we get 24 somebody shot or something you don't 25 wanna...
671 AP: Yeah, that's right. Then you don't want to 2 be scrambling looking for the equipment. 3 DL: No. No. So. And that's the only way you're 4 going to get in - I mean Christ if those 5 guys are in the bush -ah, you know, and 6 somebody's downed and there's rifle fire - 7 Christ - you know you - you can't be 8 sending TRU or ERT guys through heavy 9 brush 'cause you're gonna have half a 10 dozen guys shot. 11 AP: Yeah, yeah. 12 DL: And - the other thing is we - we didn't 13 bring any dogs in here. I - I - I guess 14 that's a debatable thing you know. If you 15 bring dogs you've got to have two dogs you 16 know, One and Two Districts, to rotate but 17 - ah- I guess the logic was - it was a 18 discussion about earlier that - you know 19 we have so many people here that if 20 there's a pursuit or something we'll be 21 hot on their heels anyways but I don't 22 know. That's something we should think 23 about. Do we put canine here or do we - 24 AP: (interrupting) I don't have a problem with 25 that. If you people - if you
681 [inaudible]... 2 DL: (interrupting) I'll talk to John in the 3 morning about it... 4 AP: ...if you want canine down there then you 5 get canine down there. 6 DL: Yeah, its not a clear issue but - 7 AP: Have you got the - has TSB got the video 8 up and running? 9 DL: Yeah. The two videos are ah - being 10 monitored at Grand Bend. 11 AP: What are they showing - do you know? 12 DL: Well all I know is that one is at the - 13 the kiosk - and the other one's at the - 14 mechanical shed - [inaudible]? 15 AP: So apparently no - I guess we can - they 16 haven't found yet. 17 DL: No. 18 AP: 'Cause those could -you know. 19 DL: Because ah... 20 AP: ...Clearly they were cutting some trees 21 down near the kiosk. It would be nice to 22 have those up and running today but - 23 DL: Well, they told me that they were to be up 24 and running at nine o'clock... 25 AP: Yeah.
691 DL: ...and I asked about eight o'clock if 2 things were going on schedule and they 3 said they were. I haven't called down but 4 for all intents and purposes TSB were 5 there and we had a guy, Chris Martin was 6 going in to monitor them at nine o'clock 7 in Grand Bend so I'll call over but I'm - 8 I feel fairly comfortable saying that. 9 AP: Yeah, that'd be something. Ah - I mean I 10 certainly hope we'd have them up and 11 running for tomorrow morning. 12 DL: Okay. What I'm hearing now is that we had 13 them goin' and one of the lines - the one 14 to the maintenance shed has gone dead - is 15 it something that can be fixed - probably 16 externally or? Okay. They had them goin' 17 and the maintenance shed line has gone 18 dead on them. 19 AP: Okay. Now they've broken into the 20 maintenance shed right? 21 DL: Yeah. 22 AP: Yeah. 23 DL: So whether they've found it or whatever I 24 don't know but - 25 AP: We'll have to wait and see.
701 DL: But of course there were four probes, eh - 2 that are not activated - that would 3 require an authorization but - 4 AP: Yeah right. I - I ... 5 DL: One of those in the maintenance shed. 6 AP: I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't be 7 far from getting an authorization but we 8 can talk to TSB tomorrow. 9 DL: Yeah. 10 AP: We certainly got - you know, criminal 11 activities that've taken place. 12 DL: Yeah. 13 AP: And we've got warrants outstanding. 14 DL: Anything else you can think of? 15 AP: No, no, no. I'm just - That was just off 16 the top of my head. No. I think you've got 17 everything under control there and like 18 you say - touch up those couple of issues 19 with John tomorrow and depending on that 20 injunction and depending on the political 21 will we'll -we'll make our decisions 22 accordingly. 23 DL: I got a call from Tom Bressette about noon 24 today. You know who he is eh - the 25 Chief...
711 AP: Yup. 2 DL: ...at Kettle Point. 3 AP: Yup. 4 DL: He was pretty pissed off. Ah - you know 5 basically - he ah - you know - this is a 6 provincial issue now, you can't be hidin' 7 behind the army, you know their 8 indecisiveness, what are you going to do 9 type of thing. 10 AP: What are you going to do. 11 DL: Got him settled down a little bit and then 12 he passed on a little bit of information. 13 He said the - there's a couple of 14 cottages, right at the end of ah - of 15 Outer Drive? 16 AP: Mmhmm. 17 DL: And ah - that border on the east side of 18 Camp Ipperwash opposite the Park. And he 19 was saying that the rumour is that you 20 know that they'll try to take those over 21 either soon or after they're finished with 22 the Park issue. 23 AP: Well what will Tom Bressette do if we kick 24 those people out of there? What will the 25 rest - what's his opinion on the...
721 DL: (interrupting) Tom Bressette. Tom 2 Bressette... 3 AP: ...opinion of the rest of the First Nation 4 people. 5 DL: Tom Bressette has never supported any land 6 claim on Ipperwash Provincial Park. And he 7 says we should be kicking their asses out 8 of there. 9 AP: Yeah, I think ah- unfortunately I'm - I 10 mean as much as I like to hear that, 11 unfortunately I think he's a bit of a lone 12 voice. 13 DL: (interrupting) No he's - 14 AP: I think even if we did it, I don't know 15 how strongly he would come out on our 16 side. 17 DL: Ah - he's not a lone voice. That was 18 unanimous - according to him - unanimous 19 decision at the most recent counsel 20 meeting that not one person at the meeting 21 supported the - ah - the invasion of that 22 Provincial Park. Not one. And ah you know 23 - so I think he's an ally and you know he 24 basically said to me on the phone today - 25 whether he comes through -if there's
731 anything I can do to help you guys with it 2 let me know. 3 AP: Well, yeah, that's - 4 DL: So. 5 AP: ...good stuff. 6 DL: And he went as far as to talk about the 7 Manning boys selling booze out of the 8 trunk of their car. And selling drugs. And 9 you know, that kind of stuff. So. 10 AP: Hmm. 11 DL: But I guess the one that's of interest to 12 me were those cottages at the end of Outer 13 Drive, there's two or three cottages just 14 tucked in there and I don't think that 15 there's any great fear that they're going 16 to march in there and throw the people our 17 into the road but he's basically saying 18 that that's the next target and then 19 Pinery Park is the one after that. And ah 20 - you know and he's saying if you don't 21 stop these people they'll just keep on - 22 you know - 23 AP: He's right there. 24 DL: Oh sure he's right. 25 AP: That's our concern.
741 DL: And its like we said to Marcel Beaubien. 2 This is an ideal situation we find 3 ourselves in now because we basically have 4 an abandoned park, its all provincial 5 property. There's no private interests. 6 You know some guys saying oh you know this 7 is my farm, you know. 8 AP: Yup. 9 DL: Its kind of isolated, down on the point 10 there. You've got the water on one side, 11 and although, you know its not good for us 12 being exposed to so much bush, its pretty 13 vulnerable but... 14 AP: Yes, that's true. 15 DL: ...I mean so far as I'm concerned, its an 16 ideal place to make a stand. So. We'll 17 see. 18 AP: We certainly will. We'll be around 19 (laughs) to see how the picture unfolds. 20 DL: Well, I'll let you get back to your news. 21 AP: Yeah, okay. Well you have a good night and 22 hopefully it will be a peaceful night and 23 ah - ah - we'll be talking to you down the 24 road. 25 DL: (interrupting) And welcome back from your
751 training, right? (laughs) 2 AP: Oh yeah. Yeah, right. (laughs) 3 DL: Yeah I told the guys at the course, I said 4 I'd better take a little rest now because 5 I think that shortly after I get back I'm 6 going to be busy so. 7 AP: Well you proved yourself right. 8 DL: Well John Carson did a hell of a fine job 9 setting this up you know. He had 10 everything up and running, good plan and 11 you know. 12 AP: Well that works well. 13 DL: Yeah, good guy. 14 AP: Team [inaudible] 15 DL: Good guy. 16 AP: Good stuff. 17 DL: Thanks Tony. 18 AP: All right. We'll be talking to ya. 19 DL: Good-bye. 20 End of conversation 21 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps this might be 23 a good place to take a break, Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you.
761 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for fifteen (15) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 10:16 a.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 10:33 a.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Thank you 11 for that, Commissioner. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: Mr. Parkin, we just played that 15 recording of your discussion with Inspector Dale Linton 16 of September 5th, 1995 which is time stamped 21:53 hours. 17 A: Correct, sir. 18 Q: And if we look at your handwritten 19 notes at page 29 which we had left off last time, there 20 is no notation for this particular conversation in your 21 handwritten notes. 22 A: Correct, sir. 23 Q: Again, I'm not -- I -- I wouldn't ask 24 you to get inside of the comments or the head of Mr. 25 Linton or Inspector Linton and you'll see -- first of
771 all, you were able to follow the transcript as the 2 recording was playing? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: All right. And but for a couple of 5 minor perhaps errors, the -- the transcript is 6 essentially accurate. Do you agree with that? 7 A: I'll accept that, yes. 8 Q: All right. And if you look at the 9 first page of that transcript, you see that where Dale 10 Linton or a comment attributed to him: 11 "Well, I heard the Minister of Natural 12 Resources was on the local news here at 13 six o'clock saying that they wouldn't 14 tolerate this but we heard the rumour 15 that the Solicitor General was going to 16 be on but he wasn't anyway." 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: What did you take about -- take from 19 that if anything? And I'm speaking specifically with 20 respect to the comment that the Minister of Natural 21 Resources wouldn't tolerate this. 22 Do you know what that was about at all? 23 A: I don't know. I mean Dale was just 24 passing on information that he had become aware of from 25 somewhere.
781 Q: In any event you didn't see any news 2 on that and you were watching the news at the time you 3 recalled at home, I take it? 4 A: I was watching TV, I don't recall 5 whether I was watching the news. 6 Q: And you go on to have discussions 7 with Dale Linton as he's -- as he's giving you certain 8 information. For example at page 3 you're speaking about 9 the TRU team, right, that they've arrived from London and 10 they're basically there and he says: 11 "They're -- they're going to stay at 12 the Pinery and we're only going to 13 deploy them if we need them." 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: All right. You have a discussion 16 with him about the armoured personnel carriers; that 17 comes up at page 6. And that's a discussion about 18 working at -- working through with GM Diesel. 19 I think we've agreed earlier that that 20 was about the armoured personnel carriers that were -- 21 A: That -- 22 Q: -- being sought? 23 A: -- that's correct, sir. 24 Q: And at page 8 of that same transcript 25 there's discussions there about the video, the
791 surreptitious video that was set up for surveillance 2 purposes? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And again those are all logistical 5 issues or operational matters related to Project Maple? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Nothing extraordinary about that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Let me just take you back to page 4 10 if I may of that transcript, Mr. Parkin. 11 And at the top of -- top of page 4 12 Inspector Linton tells you that there's supposed to be an 13 injunction tomorrow and you agree with -- or you go, Hmm 14 hmm, acknowledging his -- his comment to you, I take it? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And he tells you as early as tomorrow 17 and you ask the question: 18 "As early as tomorrow?" 19 And I'm -- I'm going to suggest to you 20 that I heard a note of surprise in your voice. 21 A: Yes, on this whole issue of 22 injunction I guess I -- if I can clarify a little bit, I 23 wasn't involved in the discussions around the timing of 24 the injunction, specifically who would be attending. I 25 know that John and Dale, they certainly were hearing
801 information. 2 So I was out of the loop on the injunction 3 side simply because that was something essentially we 4 were leaving to the Ministry of Natural Resources, albeit 5 we may have to provide a witness. 6 Q: All right. And then you'll -- you'll 7 note that Inspector Linton says: 8 "Yeah." 9 And you say: 10 "Oh, that's a change because today when 11 we were talking to them they were going 12 for -- they didn't even have..." 13 And he says: 14 "...to look for a twenty-four (24) hour 15 injunction?" 16 And your reply: 17 "Yeah, the emergency or the standard." 18 And I'm going to suggest to you that 19 there's a word missing there: 20 " [That] they were looking at the 21 standard injunction which is two (2) 22 weeks but that's good." 23 So this was new information from what you 24 had previously been told in your conversation at 16:04 25 hours with Inspector Carson?
811 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. And when you say earlier: 3 "Because when we were talking to them 4 today they hadn't even..." 5 Who was talking to whom? Who were you 6 referring to? 7 A: Where are you exactly, sir? 8 Q: Again I'm -- I'm just going back to 9 your earlier comment when you say, "As early as 10 tomorrow." And he says: 11 "Yeah." 12 And you reply: 13 "Oh, that's a change because today when 14 we were talking to them they were going 15 for -- they hadn't even..." 16 And I'm at the top of page 4. 17 A: Yeah, I've got it, sir. 18 Q: Can you tell us who you were 19 referring to when you say, "We were talking to them?"? 20 A: I would think somebody with the 21 Ministry of Natural Resources, possibly Les Kobayashi. 22 We had a lot of conversation. 23 Q: All right. And I'll take it from 24 that answer that you don't have a direct recollection 25 of --
821 A: No, sir. 2 Q: -- who it was that was being spoken 3 with? All right. 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: Had you any further conversations on 6 that day -- and obviously there's none recorded in your 7 personal notes relative to the situation. 8 Had you received any further briefings 9 that you can recall for us today? 10 A: This call here is at almost ten 11 o'clock on the 5th and I was at my residence. So not 12 that I recall, sir. 13 Q: All right, thank you. Let's maybe 14 move in your notes then which is Exhibit 499 to your page 15 30 and it commences at Wednesday 06 September of 1995. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. And I understand that you 18 had received a phone call that day and you were briefed 19 with respect to the events that had occurred overnight by 20 Inspector Carson. 21 Do you recall that, sir, that you would 22 have received a phone call at approximately 7:30 in the 23 morning? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Okay. You were apprised of the
831 situation involving picnic tables and that sort of thing. 2 Does that -- does that ring a bell for 3 you? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. We have a further audio 6 tape, Commissioner, and it will be found at Tab 5 of the 7 Audio Brief and it's a call between Superintendent 8 Anthony Parkin and Inspector John Carson. It's dated 9 September 6th, 1995, timestamp of 7:22 hours. 10 And I understand that this is not yet made 11 an exhibit and perhaps I would ask that that tape be 12 played. 13 But perhaps just before we get into that, 14 I just want to point out that what we intend to do here 15 is that once we've played all of the tapes that we intend 16 to which have not yet been made exhibits, that we will 17 prepare a separate disc and then file that with the 18 Registrar as -- as one (1) single exhibit, if that's all 19 right with you, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many are 21 there? 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I believe there's 23 about seven (7) conversations that we intend to play that 24 haven't been made exhibits as far as I know. 25 So if we could play that -- that
841 particular call and we'll follow along in the -- in the 2 transcript. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This one is 4 at Tab 5 in the audio? 5 MR. DONALD WORME: It's at Tab 5 and it's 6 -- it's fairly brief. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 9 10 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 11 [JC = Inspector John Carson] 12 13 AP: Hello? 14 JC: Good morning. How are you today? 15 AP: Not too bad. How are you? 16 JC: Good, good. Just thought I'd give ya a 17 quick update here before we get into some 18 other ah - meetings here and get tied up. 19 AP: Okay 20 JC: ...'Cause I thought you'd want stuff as 21 early as possible. 22 AP: Great! 23 JC: Ah - last night we got a bit of an ambush. 24 AP: Oh? 25 JC: Oh around eleven o'clock, eleven-thirty.
851 They set a fire on -on Army Camp Road 2 itself. So the ERT guys themselves to 3 check it out and got bombarded by rocks 4 from people that were over the Park gate. 5 Ahh - [inaudible] - 6 AP: (interrupting) Some of the militants... 7 JC: (interrupting) Yeah. 8 AP: ...were throwing them from behind the gate 9 eh? 10 JC: Right. 11 AP: Okay. 12 JC: Okay? So we got three - three damaged 13 cruisers from - so windows damaged. 14 AP: And nobody hurt? 15 JC: No. No. We got out of there okay. Ahh - 16 but overnight they ahh - ahhh - ahh - ahh 17 piled a bunch of picnic tables over the 18 fence, between the fence and the first 19 cottage, right at the beachfront. 20 AP: Okay, now let me get this. Over the fence, 21 on the beach? 22 JC: Yeah. Okay, if you drove down Army Camp 23 Road and continued straight off the end of 24 it, you go onto a -a big ah - public 25 parking area...
861 AP: Okay. 2 JC: And that takes you right down to the 3 waterfront. 4 AP: Okay. 5 JC: So what they did is - that area between 6 the first cottage and the fence to the 7 Park, which is either Township or County 8 property, I don't know which... 9 AP: Yeah. 10 JC: ...They piled a whole slew of picnic 11 tables in there. And ah - we don't know 12 why. You know they did it to create a 13 humungous bonfire or what I don't know. 14 I've got somebody going down right now to 15 check it out to see exactly what's there. 16 AP: Uh huh. 17 JC: And ah - ah - I've got MNR arranging some 18 vehicles - trucks and that - and we're 19 going to haul them out of there. 20 AP: Okay. 21 JC: And ah - we'll put the helicopter up to - 22 to provide the eye for cover in the event 23 that - that they try to you know cause us 24 any aggravation. We got the nighttime ERT 25 teams are just being debriefed now and
871 I'll have them just stand by while the 2 dayshift ERT go in and take them out. 3 AP: Okay. 4 JC: Okay? 5 AP: Yup. 6 JC: But I think we got to get them out of 7 there. Because if they set a fire we can't 8 even get the damn fire department in there 9 to - to prevent it from spreading to the 10 next door house. If its - if it's the way 11 I think it is. 12 AP: Yeah. I guess its somebody lives 13 [inaudible] house. I guess its not just a 14 cottage or something. 15 JC: Well, I think it's a - I think its not a 16 year-round residence - I don't believe. 17 AP: Yeah. 18 JC: But it's a significant cottage in cottage 19 terms. 20 AP: Right. 21 JC: Yeah. 22 AP: Right. 23 JC: Yeah. So, from a public perspective I 24 think we got to address that. Quick, 25 quick.
881 AP: That's great. 2 JC: Okay? 3 AP: Umm - the videos. 4 JC: Yes. 5 AP: Working? 6 JC: Yeah, umm yeah, yeah. No problem. The one 7 place is ah - ah getting information. The 8 other one - no activity. 9 AP: Oh, okay. Good. 10 JC: Okay? 11 AP: Good. Okay, well that's great. 12 JC: Yeah. 13 AP: That's good. 14 JC: And we got - we got a video from the - 15 from the sky. 16 AP: Yeah? 17 JC: And we got a video printer from TRU so we 18 can print out some pictures and see some 19 of the activity going on inside. We're 20 gonna work on that some more today. 21 AP: Again I guess the next thing you'll have 22 to explore is - audio. 23 JC: That's right. 24 AP: Okay! 25 JC: Okey-dokey?
891 AP: So basically, fairly quiet. Except for the 2 one incident there where our guys got some 3 bottles and stuff thrown at them... 4 JC: Yeah. 5 AP: No injuries, a couple cruisers with some 6 minor damage, 7 JC: Yep. 8 AP: Umm - were there any negotiations 9 [inaudible] at all? 10 JC: Not overnight. 11 AP: We're talking... 12 JC: No, we're going to push that a little bit 13 today. 14 AP: Do you expect to hear anything from MNR 15 today? 16 JC: Ahh - hopefully. Ahh - Peter Sturdy was 17 working on the affidavit overnight and I 18 hope to hear right away. The Park 19 superintendent and the enforcement guy is 20 here this morning. So we're expecting 21 information as soon as its available. 22 AP: Okay. All right then. [inaudible] to hear 23 from you next and I'll update to Phil 24 Duffield this morning. 25 JC: Okay. And Ron Fox has already called and
901 he's got the majority of that information 2 already. 3 AP: Great. 4 JC: Okay? 5 AP: Okay, fine. Have a good one... 6 JC: (interrupting) Okay! 7 AP: ...Talk to you later. 8 JC: Okay. Bye. 9 End of conversation 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: All right. And you were able to 13 follow that along in the transcript? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And the transcript fairly represents 16 the audio recording? 17 A: I would agree, sir. 18 Q: All right. Mr. Commissioner, Mr. 19 Sandler's helpfully pointed out that it might be less 20 confusing if -- if I would mark the transcripts as we go 21 along, and I think that that makes sense. 22 So what I'm going to ask is that the 23 transcript that we had looked at earlier, the transcript 24 of the September 5th call at 21:53 hours be marked as the 25 next exhibit and I'll provide the Registrar with a copy
911 of that. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 4? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: That's Tab 4, correct. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1057, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1057: Anthony Parkin audiotape 8 transcript, Parkin/Linton, 9 21:53 hours, Sept. 05/'95. 10 11 MR. DONALD WORME: And perhaps just 12 before we move on, I would ask that this transcript at 13 Tab 5, being the phone call of September the 6th at 7:22 14 hours between Superintendent Parkin and Inspector Carson 15 be marked as Exhibit then P-1058. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1058: Anthony Parkin audiotape 19 transcript, Parkin/Carson, 20 07:22 hours, Sept.06/'95. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: So you get an update from Inspector 24 Carson, as we've heard, that there have been certain 25 events that had occurred overnight?
921 A: Correct. 2 Q: This bit of an ambush, I think, as he 3 has described it, and you can see that the transcript 4 does speak for itself, that there was some damage to some 5 cruisers, but no officers were injured. 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Yeah. You go on to talk about other 8 issues including some of the surveillance equipment that 9 had been put in place and inquiring whether or not that 10 had been working? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And at page 4, in the middle of page 13 4, when you ask if there's been any negotiations, there 14 were none overnight, but there was going to be then a 15 push to get on with negotiations on that day? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. Did it occur to -- to 18 you, sir, or to anybody within the command structure that 19 perhaps people might not come forward from among the 20 occupiers to identify themselves as spokespersons? 21 A: Well, it was clear that John was 22 having difficulty. But different people had, on 23 different occasions, stepped forward. I think what John 24 was looking for was somebody to provide continuity. 25 Q: All right.
931 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And can you -- can you recall, sir, 4 whether or not even in a debriefing following this 5 incident, whether that issue was discussed at all; that 6 is to say the likelihood that someone might not come 7 forward to identify as -- as spokesperson, what would the 8 reaction of the police be in that instance? 9 A: I can't specifically recall if that 10 was discussed in the debrief that took place a 11 considerable amount of time after this -- this event. 12 Q: Okay. And I understand that at least 13 in -- in more contemporary times that there is an 14 Aboriginal response team that might be involved in this 15 type of a situation. 16 Do you know when that came about? 17 A: That was evolving in the two (2) 18 years just pri -- I'm -- I'm guesstimating here. I 19 believe approximately with -- within the two ( 2) years 20 that I retired. 21 Q: But it wasn't something that was -- 22 there wasn't a resource that was available at the time, 23 to your knowledge? 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: All right, thank you. I want to turn
941 next -- those all the questions that I have on that 2 particular transcript, Mr. Parkin. I want to turn nextly 3 to the transcript at Tab 6 of the audio -- audiotape 4 brief. 5 It's already been entered as an exhibit. 6 It is marked as P-444A at Tab 27 and you'll find it at 7 Tab 6 I think is -- as I've said. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: All right. And that is a discussion 10 between yourself and John Carson and that is September 11 the 6th. The time on that is 9:49. 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: All right. Approximately ten (10) 14 minutes to ten in the morning, okay. And you're speaking 15 to him and he tells you that -- he gave you the update 16 this morning about the picnic tables. 17 Do you see that at the bottom of the page; 18 near the -- near the bottom third of the page? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: All right. Confirms for you that a 21 vehicle went down and all -- all the picnic tables were 22 loaded up and they were taken away. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Okay. And if we turn to the next 25 page, at the top of that page he tells you that there
951 were two (2) tents and two (2) male parties who were 2 camping in the tents and it has a fire grate from the 3 Park below, that sort of thing. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And if you go right to -- to his next 6 response to you, and that: 7 "It was all setup and, uh, the tables 8 were kind of setup in a semi-circle 9 like -- kind of like a barricade 10 protecting them from the roadway and 11 when the cruiser came around the 12 corner, two ( 2) guys were running. 13 All you could see was dust heading back 14 to the Park. So they disappeared right 15 quickly." 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And then he tells you: 18 "Oh, by the way, this line I call you 19 on now has been changed, it's no longer 20 recorded." 21 A: Correct, sir. 22 Q: So he's under the -- under the 23 misapprehension obviously that the line is not recorded 24 because we do have a transcript here. 25 A: Correct, sir.
961 Q: All right. He tells you that: 2 "So we don't need to worry about this 3 any further." 4 Do you see that just a couple of lines 5 down? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: You then have the discussion on the 8 next page about the video that they're running, the video 9 in the maintenance shack is running. 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: All right. And if we turn to page 12 223 of the transcript, see right about in the middle of 13 the page it's your response: 14 "Great. Any problem or do you have any 15 problem if the Chief and I take a drive 16 up there today?" 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And I take it that you did drive up 19 to the Ipperwash area up to the command post on that 20 date. 21 A: Chief Coles and I did. I'm not sure 22 -- I believe we were in his vehicle. 23 Q: All right. And what can you tell us 24 about -- about that, your travel down, about where you 25 went, what you did, who you would have spoken with?
971 A: Well, after I called John to ask if 2 it was all right if the Chief and I came down -- and the 3 reason that I -- I ran that by him first is it can be 4 problematic to have senior officers showing up on the 5 scene without the Incident Commander having some prior 6 knowledge of that because you get people wondering what's 7 going on. 8 So we wanted to make sure that he 9 understood the rationale for our visit and that the 10 constables and the other people that would be around and 11 see us, understood that we were simply going down to -- I 12 think the expression is 'wave the flag' to be seen. 13 To be seen as supportive of our people. 14 They were out under a very stressful situation and as the 15 leaders in the region, it's important to -- to show that 16 support. 17 We went down to Forest Detachment; we had 18 some conversation with John. We weren't always together, 19 Chief Coles and myself. 20 I do recall being out in the garage and 21 mingling with some of the emergency response people and 22 different constables that were there. They had that set 23 up as a bit of a coffee shop and such. 24 We were there for a little while, I don't 25 recall exactly how long, and then we took a drive out
981 around Army Camp Parkway Drive. 2 We drove into where the forward command 3 post was, which was in a little parking area off of -- 4 off the Parkway Drive and we chatted with the officers 5 that were there. They were mainly emergency response 6 people. 7 Continued our drive and then I believe we 8 would have headed to home and I -- that's why I believe 9 that Chief Coles dropped me off at home. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: What we may have done is left in two 12 (2) separate vehicles, dropped my vehicle off at my 13 residence and I continued on with Chief Coles. 14 Q: Okay. Well, let me just take you 15 back then, but on the after -- to the afternoon of 16 September the 6th, you did arrive at the command post 17 along with the Chief, I think as you've indicated. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Do you know what time you might have 20 arrived there? 21 A: It would have been in the afternoon. 22 Q: Do you know how long you would have 23 stayed at the command post? 24 A: I know we weren't there for an 25 extremely long period of time because we didn't want to
991 be seen hanging around there, if you will. We did want 2 to stop in and say some pleasantries and talk to the 3 people and then move on. 4 Q: All right. Do you recall having a 5 meeting with John Carson together with Chief 6 Superintendent Coles in the -- in the command post? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And specifically, Inspector Carson 9 asking the scribe to leave so that there could be a 10 private discussion as between the three (3) of you? 11 A: I don't recall that happening, but he 12 very well may have. 13 Q: Okay. And if I tell you that 14 Inspector Carson testified that you attended there at 15 around noon, would that assist you at all in recalling? 16 A: For time frames it doesn't assist me, 17 but I'll accept that. 18 Q: Okay. And would you equally accept 19 that Inspector Carson, when he testified on May the 18th, 20 and that can be found in the transcript at pages 179 to 21 81, I'm talking about the transcript of the Inquiry 22 proceedings, where he indicated that he thought that the 23 meeting would be fifteen (15) or twenty (20) minutes? 24 In fact, it turned out to be something of 25 a couple of hours, in that range. Is that -- does that
1001 assist you at all, sir? 2 A: That seems like a long period of time 3 to me, I don't recall it as being that long. But if he 4 has specific recollection of that, I'll accept it. 5 Q: And in terms of the discussion that 6 you would have had, it is your evidence that you don't 7 have any specific recall of what it was that you would 8 have talked about? 9 A: Well, I don't have any specific 10 recall, and I do recall that I -- I wasn't in the meeting 11 for the duration of that meeting. 12 Q: I see. 13 A: I was there initially, and I know we 14 -- we would have had some discussion around logistics or 15 how people were feeling, how things were going, because 16 that's the type of information we were looking for. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: But then I -- I do recall, I 19 separated from Chief Coles and that's -- I believe in 20 that period when I said I was out in the garage at Forest 21 Detachment because there was some other officers from 22 another Force that I -- that I ran across or I ran into 23 there. 24 So I know the Chief and I got separated, 25 but how long I was in the meeting with John, I can't be
1011 totally sure. 2 Q: And that's fair enough. During the 3 time that you were together with Chief Superintendent 4 Coles, did you hear him giving any advice with respect to 5 the operation as to how it should unfold to the Incident 6 Commander Inspector Carson? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: Did you give any such direction or 9 advice to the Incident Commander? 10 A: That wasn't the purpose of my visit, 11 so I can't see why I would have done that. 12 Q: And I appreciate that but I do have 13 to ask the question. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Specifically, did you hear any advice 20 or instruction being given that the CMU should be 21 deployed that evening? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: At page 30 of your -- of your notes, 24 that's Exhibit 499, that's where I'd left you at 25 Wednesday, 06 September, 1995.
1021 The first entry is 19:50 hours? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: So the events that we've just gone 4 through, none of that is recorded in your notes? 5 A: No, sir. 6 Q: All right. And you have at 19:50 7 hours and perhaps I'll just leave that for you to -- to 8 go through and I wonder if you could just tell us about 9 what that says and go up to the next entry? 10 A: Starting at, "I received a call from 11 Inspector Linton?" 12 Q: Yes, please. 13 A: "I received a call from Inspector 14 Linton who advised that Mark Wright, 15 Detective Sergeant, had Notice to Serve 16 on occupiers that MNR, Ministry of 17 Natural Resources, was seeking an 18 injunction. He advised the women had 19 left the Park as there was going to be 20 trouble. Gerald George, a Kettle Point 21 Councillor, was leaving a meeting of 22 concerned citizens on Parkway Drive and 23 was stopped by the Park by a group of 24 natives. His car was damaged and he 25 was threatened. Stuart Bradley George
1031 aka 'Worm', thirty-five (35) to forty 2 (40) years was ID'd. He was angry and 3 drunk, to be charged with mischief." 4 Q: All right. 5 If I can just get a moment please? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: In the book of documents in front of 10 you, Mr. Parkin, at Tab Number 18 there's an exhibit I've 11 previously taken you to. It is marked as Exhibit P-426 12 and at page 78 of -- of that... you'll just let me know 13 when you -- when you get there. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes, sir? 18 Q: You have that -- that call received 19 from Inspector Linton at 19:50 hours? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: I guess what I'm trying to simply 22 figure out is whether or not there is a transcript that 23 would -- that would accompany that and... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1041 Q: So I'm asking simply if you have any 2 explanation as to that particular time as to when this 3 call would have came to you? 4 I know you've already explained to us 5 earlier that you had made your notes sometime after the 6 fact? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: The -- I would have received this 10 call at home. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: So I don't know about a transcript. 13 Q: All right. What I want to do is I 14 want to move and play the -- the next audio recording. 15 And this is a audiotape which is time stamped at 21:42 16 and it's between yourself and Inspector Linton. You'll 17 find that at Tab 7 of the audio brief in front of you. 18 It's already been marked -- I'm sorry. 19 Let's go ahead and play it. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 23 (dialing of phone...ringing in) 24 25 UNKNOWN: Hello.
1051 LINTON: Is Tony there please? 2 UNKNOWN: Yeah just a moment. 3 PARKIN: Hello. 4 LINTON: Tony...yeah it's Dale. Hello. 5 PARKIN: Hello. 6 LINTON: It's Dale. 7 PARKIN: Yeah how are you doing Dale? 8 LINTON: Well we're it looks like we're in the 9 thick of it. 10 PARKIN: Oh Jesus. 11 LINTON: Uhm about two hours ago ah a car went down 12 ah it was on the Army Camp Road... 13 PARKIN: Yeah. 14 LINTON: There was a group of people Bosanquet 15 Township people met ah citizens and they 16 expressed their displeasure, now this was 17 the people that Fred THOMAS was leading 18 he's the Mayor of Bosanquet... 19 PARKIN: Yes. 20 LINTON: And they were irate that nobody's doing 21 anything in the meeting earlier and I 22 guess one of the people from that meeting, 23 we believe from that meeting drove ah down 24 Parkway and onto right at the corner there 25 at ah Army Camp Road, just in front of the
1061 the gate to the Park. 2 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 3 LINTON: And there were eight Native males out 4 there with baseball bats, four of them had 5 bats and stuff and they started banging on 6 her car and ah so... 7 PARKIN: On her her car? 8 LINTON: Yeah, so she had a damaged vehicle so were 9 taking a statement on that and and ah this 10 which is outside the Park ah that's where 11 where the fire was this morning. 12 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 13 LINTON: And ah Mark WRIGHT had driven down they 14 told him to get out of there, that you 15 know to get off the road, so we were so we 16 were we ah were planning on sending ERT 17 down to make arrests and while we were 18 doing that ah they they were moving their 19 ah bus back to that area and the dump 20 truck back to that area... 21 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 22 LINTON: And they were in the kiosk pulling down 23 the blinds, so it looked like they were 24 setting us up like come on down here... 25 PARKIN: Hmm hmm.
1071 LINTON: And ah so we called the TRU guys, we 2 didn't bring the vans into town but the 3 TRU guys are in now and the Three and Six 4 District guys from day shift are held over 5 and all the women and children on the base 6 were at the ah at the front gate up at 21 7 Highway and they were all supposed to be 8 evacuated, they said they were all leaving 9 ah earlier this evening cause there was 10 going to be trouble tonight. And now 11 there's ah bonfires down at the at the 12 bottom by the entrance to the Park... 13 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 14 LINTON: Ah and there's maybe ten/twelve people 15 down there and more congregating and 16 there's another big bonfire up at 21 and 17 there's twenty or thirty people 18 congregating there. 19 PARKIN: Up at 21? 20 LINTON: Right up at you know... 21 PARKIN: At the Military Base. 22 LINTON: Military Base gate. 23 PARKIN: Yeah. 24 LINTON: So... 25 PARKIN: But inside the grounds?
1081 LINTON: Yeah. 2 PARKIN: Yeah. 3 LINTON: But the ones down below are are out or 4 were out so we've got ah TRU is down at 5 the TOC and they've got two Sierra 6 Teams... 7 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 8 LINTON: Ah doing surveillance we just want to know 9 what we got, we don't want to go in there 10 and arrest the ah the guys out ah out in 11 front of Ipperwash if we're going to get 12 sniper fired. 13 PARKIN: Well and the other thing is too probably 14 if you start sending people down there, 15 they're going to retreat back into the 16 camp into the bush. 17 LINTON: Well they may but the other thing was, we 18 had a whole list of automatic weapons that 19 that ah somebody gave us ah this evening 20 too that are supposed to be down there. 21 PARKIN: Supposed to be yeah well I heard ah we 22 were there today and ah talking to John 23 and ah that that's the information that 24 this Buck DOXTATOR has supposedly 25 brought...
1091 LINTON: Yeah. 2 PARKIN: Some weapons out. 3 LINTON: Yeah, well John John is down at the ah the 4 TOC and I'm at the Command Post up here. 5 PARKIN: Oh okay. 6 LINTON: And ah so what's happening now is TRU is 7 going to do their ah their observations 8 and see what they got and see if there's 9 any threat to us and ah... 10 PARKIN: Well is is there any threat to us... 11 LINTON: Well this we you know I mean they 12 defiantly were out on the road and... 13 PARKIN: Yeah. 14 LINTON: And ah... 15 PARKIN: We can block the road off, right? 16 LINTON: Yeah we have. 17 PARKIN: Okay, ah this woman... 18 LINTON: Yeah. 19 PARKIN: Ah that that went down there... 20 LINTON: Yeah. 21 PARKIN: You say that she was at ah some kind of a 22 council meeting tonight? 23 LINTON: No she was at ah just like a public 24 meeting... 25 PARKIN: Public meeting.
1101 LINTON: It was actually it turned out to be right 2 by our TOC area... 3 PARKIN: Oh okay. 4 LINTON: Unbeknownst to us. 5 PARKIN: Alright alright and the Mayor was there? 6 LINTON: And ah I understand that Fred was there 7 and... 8 PARKIN: Alright. 9 LINTON: And the people were quite irate and what 10 what's going on and... 11 PARKIN: Okay so then she drives from there... 12 LINTON: But ah... 13 PARKIN: How... 14 LINTON: But he got them settled down like they're 15 they're not a problem to us now, they're 16 gone home. 17 PARKIN: Oh okay. 18 LINTON: Okay. 19 PARKIN: But then she drove down from there... 20 LINTON: She...yeah. 21 PARKIN: And that by... 22 LINTON: I believe she was one of the people at the 23 meeting and then she gets her vehicle 24 damaged with baseball bats as she drives 25 by the entrance.
1111 PARKIN: She was driving by or... 2 LINTON: Yeah. 3 PARKIN: Yeah, mmh. 4 LINTON: And there's eight or ten people on the 5 road and they whacked the vehicle and 6 ah...but at the same time like when we're 7 going to respond then they really build up 8 big time inside so that you know our 9 original plan was go down and arrest these 10 guys, unlawful assembly, mischief, ah 11 willful damage that kind of stuff. 12 PARKIN: Whatever yeah. 13 LINTON: But they've built us so fast inside and 14 were pulling the blinds down in the kiosk 15 so that you know it became obvious that 16 they were probably setting us up. 17 PARKIN: What are you getting on the videos back in 18 Grand Bend? 19 LINTON: The videos are getting almost nothing out 20 of that kiosk, they're blurry and you know 21 you can't see people coming and going, 22 uhm... 23 PARKIN: I was in the ah...we stopped at Grand Bend 24 too and I took a look took a look at the 25 videos and they were very clear
1121 pictures... 2 LINTON: Yeah. 3 PARKIN: But they due to the lack of lights or 4 whatever... 5 LINTON: Yeah, but ah so what's happening now is ah 6 the TRU Team is down there and they're 7 doing that those observations... 8 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 9 LINTON: And if anybody is out ah there's a lot of 10 traffic along the beach too from Ipperwash 11 to ah Army Camp Road... 12 TONY: From Ipperwash to ah okay... 13 LINTON: With their vehicles and ah if the people 14 are outside the fence and lighting fires 15 and got clubs and stuff then they're going 16 to make arrests. 17 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 18 LINTON: Ah going to use ah the Three and Six 19 District ERT Teams with the TRU Team and 20 then they're going to use ah One and One 21 and Two Teams just as a (I/A) stuff. 22 PARKIN: Okay so basically I mean you're you're 23 kind of saying that if if something 24 happens on the road or off of the Park... 25 LINTON: Yes.
1131 PARKIN: Proper... 2 LINTON: Yeah. 3 PARKIN: You're going to take whatever action is 4 reasonable. 5 LINTON: Yeah. 6 PARKIN: And but if it stays inside the Park... 7 LINTON: Yeah. 8 PARKIN: We we're not planning on going in? 9 LINTON: No. 10 PARKIN: Okay. Ah well you've already talked to 11 John then and I guess you're aware that 12 they're going for the injunction... 13 LINTON: Okay I have copies of all that stuff that 14 ah a guy named McCABE sent me down, ah Tim 15 McCABE... 16 PARKIN: Hmm hmm. 17 LINTON: Ah about forty pages and he just faxed it 18 and he he called and he said he'd like us 19 to try to serve it on them tonight, I just 20 about... 21 PARKIN: Serve what? 22 LINTON: Serve copies... 23 PARKIN: Oh. 24 LINTON: Of the ah notice that they're seeking an 25 injunction with all the grounds and I just
1141 called him back and said we ah we can't 2 get near the place they're ah...so he said 3 well that's even better probably than 4 serving it the mere fact that... 5 PARKIN: Who who sent that down ah Dale? 6 LINTON: Tim McCABE. 7 PARKIN: And and who is he? 8 LINTON: He's the Ministry Ministry Attorney 9 General...and it's the full ah the full 10 application for an injunction. 11 PARKIN: Well you (I/A) it, yeah see the... 12 13 (inaudible background conversation) 14 15 PARKIN: But they were trying to get time early 16 tomorrow morning... 17 LINTON: Huh huh. 18 PARKIN: In the in the courts to go ahead with the 19 ah the emergency injunction. 20 LINTON: It's on for 9:00 o'clock in Sarnia. 21 PARKIN: 9:00 o'clock. 22 LINTON: Yeah. 23 PARKIN: But ah...that's a little ridiculous to 24 send us out to serve. 25 LINTON: He just wanted to make sure that they
1151 ah... 2 PARKIN: When you think of it. 3 LINTON: Knew what was happening but when when he 4 that he didn't he wasn't aware that ah 5 neither we were that this ah ah 6 disturbance was going to take place. 7 PARKIN: Yeah. 8 LINTON: But right now I mean there's no way you 9 can go in there it's ah... 10 PARKIN: No, not to try and serve papers on a bunch 11 and and they're probably all boozed up 12 they're probably drinking. 13 LINTON: Yeah yeah, they're setting fires and 14 there's some rumour they stole thousand 15 gallons of gas of whatever gas they could 16 today from ah from an MNR tank in there as 17 well. And ah you know the rumours of 18 Molotov Cocktails and that kind of stuff 19 so... 20 PARKIN: Yeah but ah... 21 LINTON: So it looks like ah tonight's the night, 22 they're they're revved up for action the 23 women and kids and leaving and it really 24 surprised me that they'd ah you know be 25 this aggressive.
1161 PARKIN: Yeah...the women and kids are leaving 2 that's that's a bit unusual too. 3 LINTON: So I'll ah I'll let you know when we have 4 ah... 5 PARKIN: Well...that that injunction surprises me 6 because the one the one that they were 7 going for, ah and I guess John told you 8 what happened today about me going up the 9 MNR side about the possibility of 10 automatic weapons. 11 LINTON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: And then that hit the fan down in Toronto. 13 LINTON: Yeah. Well that didn't come from us I'm 14 just wondering how that ah... 15 PARKIN: No no, no it went up through the MNR side, 16 KOBAYASHI reported that up... 17 LINTON: Okay. 18 PARKIN: But I can't really blame him I mean he's 19 he's working in amongst our people and he 20 heard it and ah... 21 LINTON: Yeah. 22 PARKIN: You know and he reported it and of course 23 it but it went up that side... 24 LINTON: Yeah. 25 PARKIN: And then it got...the next thing it was ah
1171 sitting in the ah in the ah Deputy 2 Solicitor General's Office, ah so there 3 was some concern that you know maybe we 4 weren't doing the right thing. 5 LINTON: Marcel BEAUBIEN was in tonight and he had 6 talked to the Solicitor General and ah... 7 PARKIN: Yeah. 8 LINTON: The Attorney General and they were 9 comfortable but he, he... 10 PARKIN: Well that's right we we called the 11 Commissioner ah tonight... 12 LINTON: Yeah. 13 PARKIN: And he had been talking to RUNCIMAN and 14 they were more than pleased with what they 15 OPP were doing so it was no problem there. 16 What happened though by that by that ah 17 information about the automatic weapons 18 going up the MNR side, they went from that 19 that regular type of injunction ash to the 20 emergency type...which ah you know which 21 isn't really in our favour... 22 LINTON: Yeah. 23 PARKIN: We want a little bit more time. 24 LINTON: Yeah. 25 PARKIN: But but they've they've they've gone for
1181 that and then that's why those papers must 2 have come down tonight for us to serve, 3 but I would suggest that it's not up to us 4 to serve those initially. 5 LINTON: No. 6 PARKIN: It's up to the MNR to serve those. 7 LINTON: Yeah. 8 PARKIN: It's an MNR injunction... 9 LINTON: Yeah. 10 PARKIN: And we would assist them in serving that. 11 LINTON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: Uhm you know but this is typical where we 13 get kind of caught and well ul ultimately 14 the ball's going to be in our lap anyway 15 if they get this injunction tomorrow. 16 17 (Inaudible background conversation) 18 19 PARKIN: Uhm but I guess what we would rather have 20 happen is if we can if you can lock that 21 place down so that you know the general 22 public isn't put in any danger... 23 LINTON: Yeah. 24 PARKIN: And ah you know if they went to burn 25 picnic tables if they want to act like
1191 yahoos back in there, fine. If they come 2 out into your turf and we can safely make 3 arrest well then that's fine too. 4 LINTON: Yeah. Well... 5 PARKIN: So... 6 LINTON: It looks like if if it stays as active 7 down on the point as it is right now we're 8 going to have to evacuate ah six or eight 9 houses probably and and ah that's going to 10 really....well I mean it's for their own 11 safety but it's really going to piss them 12 off because ah I've already had... 13 PARKIN: It probably will. 14 LINTON: Conversation with them today and they're 15 you know the attitude well you know you're 16 moving me out of my house it's...those 17 guys should be moving not me type of thing 18 but but we'll go ahead and do it anyways 19 it's it's a safety issue we'll we'll have 20 to do it. 21 PARKIN: Yeah. Well yeah you're right I mean 22 you're going to at least have to try. 23 LINTON: Yeah. 24 PARKIN: And okay so John's down in the TOC. 25 LINTON: He's down in TOC, I'm up at the Command
1201 Post and ah we've got ah sixty ERT guys 2 and ah ten TRU people and Wade, Wade 3 LACROIX'S in. Ah... 4 PARKIN: What's Wade doing? 5 LINTON: He's looking after the Team they suited 6 him up, he knows the area really well 7 so... 8 PARKIN: Mmm okay well just ah...ah alright Wade's 9 a good guy and I've worked with Wade a lon 10 a long time...uhm just make sure that you 11 or John control it... 12 LINTON: Oh yeah John John is right down at the TOC 13 where they were and Wade'll be there. 14 PARKIN: Yeah, okay. 15 LINTON: Okay so ah...you know it's not ah that 16 things are going to get away on us I don't 17 think. 18 PARKIN: No no, okay ah alright ah just let me know 19 if things start to to really take a 20 tumble. 21 LINTON: Alright unless ah unless it unless we have 22 something really ah horrendous I won't 23 bother you again but ah... 24 PARKIN: Well ah don't ever worry about calling but 25 ah you know ah especially if things really
1211 start to get bad. 2 LINTON: Alright. 3 PARKIN: But other than that ah I appreciate the 4 call. 5 LINTON: Okay. 6 PARKIN: And good luck. 7 LINTON: Alright. 8 PARKIN: Okay. 9 10 End of Conversation 11 12 MR. DONALD WORME: And that's the end of 13 that conversation. 14 Mr. Commissioner, I can tell you that the 15 transcript has already been marked as an exhibit in the 16 proceedings. It is P-469. 17 The audio portion of this conversation, as 18 I mentioned earlier, we'll -- we'll make as part of one 19 (1) complete audio file together with the others that we 20 will play. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Mr. Parkin, you were able to follow 25 that --
1221 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: -- in the transcript? And that 3 conversation has been stamped at 21:42 hours. Do you see 4 that? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. And it would -- it would 7 seem at least that some of what you've indicated in your 8 notes of September the 6th under the heading 19:50 hours 9 would seem to be part of this information. Do you agree 10 with that? 11 A: I do, sir. 12 Q: All right. And do you have any 13 explanation for the discrepancy in terms of the time; 14 your notation is 19:50 and the time stamp is 21:42, if in 15 fact that is the same conversation? 16 A: Yes, the explanation as I said 17 earlier is when I went down in the afternoon with Chief 18 Coles, whether I left my notebook in his cruiser, whether 19 I left it back at the office -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- the reality is I didn't have it. 22 When all this started to happen I was at home and the 23 first opportunity that I got to sit down and try and put 24 something down to paper was approximately 5:00 in the 25 morning at Grand Bend Detachment.
1231 So in my mind I tried to backtrack, 2 recalling those calls. Clearly what took place as 3 between the bus and the shooting incident and leaving my 4 residence, going to pick up Chief Coles, going down to 5 Forest to check with John and then going to Grand Bend, I 6 didn't have my notebook. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I, trying to recall times, so I put 9 times down as best I thought I could. Then when I was in 10 Grand Bend there was a log laying around that had some 11 times on it also. It was -- I don't know whether it was 12 a scribe log or something that had been prepared by 13 someone and forwarded there and there was some times. 14 That's why when I -- when I started to see 15 that and I looked at that log and you can see where I put 16 a little note, "from log 23:13," because clearly I knew 17 my times were out. 18 But rather than blacken them out so that - 19 - and change the whole thing, that's why I did that. 20 Also what had transpired, at one point in time, clearly I 21 get a call from Dale telling me about a woman that had 22 her car damaged. 23 And clearly, in my notes, by this time, 24 after going through Forest, gathering more information, I 25 had learned that it wasn't a woman, that it was a man.
1241 So in my recollection and trying to get it down, that's 2 what I put in my notes. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you for that. Let's 4 maybe just go through that transcript briefly, if we 5 could. I do have a couple of questions for you. 6 You've already indicated that the report 7 to you from -- from Inspector Linton about this attack on 8 a woman's car, you've already indicated that that was 9 subsequently corrected for you, and you've made the 10 correct notations in your own personal notes, your 11 handwritten notes. 12 A: That's correct, sir. 13 Q: All right. Do you know what impact 14 or effect that this piece of information, at least as it 15 was given at 21:42 hours, do you know what impact that 16 that had on the way that the operation unfolded? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: All right. At page 40 of the 19 transcript it's reported to you that they're pulling the 20 blinds down in -- in the kiosks, it looks like we're 21 being set up, that sort of thing. 22 Do you see that? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And he tells you about the decision 25 to call in TRU.
1251 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. And the information he 3 goes on that there is more congregating, there's another 4 bonfire at twenty-one (21), there's twenty (20) or thirty 5 (30) people congregating there. 6 Do you see that at the bottom of page 40? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And so he advises you, at the middle 9 of page 41, that this is what you have down there in 10 terms of resources, TRU is down at the TOC and there's 11 two (2) Sierra teams that have been set out. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And he tells you, just beyond that, 14 that -- and let me just read this. 15 "Doing surveillance..." 16 This is Inspector Linton. 17 "Doing surveillance. We just want to 18 know what we got. We don't want to go 19 in there and arrest the guys out in 20 front of Ipperwash if we're going to 21 get sniper fire." 22 So he's telling you of a potential threat. 23 A: He was relaying to me his concern 24 about that potential scenario. 25 Q: Okay. And you tell him that, Well,
1261 if you start sending people down there, they're just 2 going to, you know, one of the things they might do is 3 run back into the bush. 4 A: That's correct. They could, well, 5 they conceivably could have gone anywhere. 6 Q: All right. Did you have any view, at 7 that point in time, about the -- about the likelihood of 8 that threat, about what you thought of the concern that - 9 - that Inspector Linton was providing you? 10 A: Clearly, they were dealing with this 11 group of individuals that -- I don't believe that they 12 actually knew where they had come from. 13 But clearly, in all likelihood, they were 14 thinking that they were from the Park. They had vehicle 15 damage by this group so they were concerned about it. 16 And they were -- Dale was basically 17 reviewing those facts with me and somewhat, again, 18 speaking out loud about potentials and options. 19 Q: Okay. And you give him the 20 additional information that you had received from 21 someplace about automatic weapons. Do you know where you 22 would have got that information? 23 I'm looking at the top of page 43, sir. 24 So Inspector Linton tells you: 25 "We had a whole list of automatic
1271 weapons." 2 And you say: 3 "Supposed to be." 4 So I take it you were aware of that and 5 you go on to tell him about what you'd heard about Buck 6 Doxtator and I'm just asking where you might have heard 7 that information. 8 A: I -- it says in here in talking to 9 John, I would think -- 10 Q: All right. 11 A: -- that was probably where I heard 12 it. 13 Q: You ask Inspector Linton at the 14 bottom of the page: 15 "Well is there any threat to us?" 16 And he tells you: 17 "Well, you know, I mean they were 18 defiantly -- were out on the road." 19 I heard 'defiant' and it may well be 20 'definite' and I can't -- I couldn't really tell. But 21 did -- do you recall him telling you that there was a 22 certain defiance that was being expressed by those 23 individuals on the road? 24 A: I can really only go by what the 25 transcript says to that, sir. I can't recall.
1281 Q: Thank you. At page 47 of the 2 transcript you were confirming with him that they would 3 take whatever reasonable action as was necessary. 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And you say: 7 "Ah, but if it stays inside the Park 8 we're not planning on going in." 9 And he tells you: 10 "No." 11 You were familiar that that was the 12 objective were you? 13 A: That's correct. That was adherence 14 to the plan. 15 Q: All right. And then he goes on to -- 16 to tell you that he has the materials that Tim McCabe had 17 sent down with respect to the injunction. And there's 18 some discussion subsequent to that about serving this 19 material? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. And I believe, if you go 22 to the bottom of that -- to the bottom of page 48, again 23 this is continuing with the discussion about the 24 injunction. You say: 25 "But they're trying to get time early
1291 tomorrow. 2 Inspector Linton: Uh huh. 3 Parkin: And the -- and the courts go 4 ahead with the emergency injunction." 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. Okay. And if we can just 7 continue on to the next page you're talking then, it 8 seems to me, about service, and Inspector Linton says: 9 "Well, we didn't know about this 10 disturbance." 11 I take it the disturbance he's referring 12 to is the information he just provided you about the 13 baseball bats and the -- and the vehicle? 14 A: That's correct, sir. 15 Q: All right. And your response is: 16 "Yeah." 17 And he tells you: 18 "But right now, I mean, there's no way 19 you can go in there. It's a --" 20 And your response: 21 "No, not to try and serve papers on a 22 bunch and they're probably all boozed 23 up, they're probably drinking." 24 Do you know where this came from, where 25 this assumption came from?
1301 A: Well, prior to that I had had 2 information from John that alcohol had been observed or - 3 - by some of the officers that ride in the Park -- in the 4 Park area, so I was aware of that information. These 5 individuals, whoever they were or wherever they were 6 from, were certainly acting out of character, banging a 7 vehicle with bats or whatever on the roadway. 8 And, you know, after thirty (30) plus 9 years of policing, my experience would tell me that 10 usually when people act out like that, that alcohol is, 11 at least, something you have to be concerned about. 12 Q: Okay. Fair enough. Thank you. If 13 you go to the next page on page -- page 50, right at the 14 top of the -- at the top of the page you say: 15 "Well, that injunction surprises me 16 because the one that they were going 17 for and I guess John told you what 18 happened today about me going up the 19 MNR side about the possibility of 20 automatic weapons." 21 Okay. So there was some surprise about 22 the -- about the injunction. And you go on to say: 23 "And it hit the fan in Toronto." 24 And I take it that that's the kind of 25 information that you would have received from Inspector
1311 Fox? 2 A: Inspector Fox or Chief Coles. 3 Q: You go on to have a discu -- as part 4 of that discussion the concern about operational 5 information coming up the MNR side. 6 Do you see that? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And then at the bottom of page 51, 9 I'm going to suggest to you that this is, again, part of 10 the -- part of the same thread of conversation with 11 respect to the injunction. And it says: 12 "And he had been talking to Runciman." 13 You're referring to the Commissioner? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: "And they were more than pleased with 16 what the OPP were doing so it was no 17 problem there. What happened though, 18 by that -- by that information about 19 the automatic weapons going up the MNR 20 side, they went from that regular type 21 of injunction to the emergency type 22 which, you know, really isn't in our 23 favour." 24 So can we take from that, Mr. Parkin, that 25 that -- that your information, with respect to the
1321 automatic weapons, that's why, at least in your mind, the 2 change from a regular type of injunction to an emergency 3 injunction occurred? 4 A: Well, I believe I got that 5 information, and I'm not sure of the exact time frames, 6 from Chief Coles, who had been in discussion with the 7 Commissioner at some point in time. 8 Clearly, there was an issue with 9 information getting up there and not coming from us. So 10 the information about automatic weapons would certainly 11 have an impact. 12 Q: All right. But in your mind, that 13 was the turning point, at least, why the direction 14 changed from a regular injunction to an emergency 15 injunction, as you've indicated? 16 A: That might have been one reason. 17 Q: All right. And at -- just lastly, 18 with respect to that portion of -- of your comments, 19 which at the end of that, you say: 20 "Which, ah, you know, really isn't in 21 our favour." 22 I'm just wondering what you -- what you 23 mean by that and I -- and you can look at the top of the 24 next page where you say, "We want a little bit more 25 time."
1331 Is that the explanation for that? 2 A: We were prepared to take as much time 3 as they required, and the injunction was only part of -- 4 of that. I mean, the injunction was -- it certainly 5 would be something from the Court giving some direction. 6 But all in all, it would still come to us 7 as far as the safety issue as to when we would do 8 anything about it. 9 Q: Okay. And I note that you -- you 10 state at the bottom of page 52: 11 "Ah, you know, but this is typical 12 where we kind of get caught. Well, 13 ultimately the ball's going to be in 14 our lap anyway if they get this 15 injunction tomorrow." 16 A: Typically, when these type of civil 17 disputes arise and get to the point where the police have 18 to become involved, we usually end up being the focus of 19 whatever it is that we're at and you're caught in the 20 middle. And as I say, later, I mean, ultimately it ends 21 up in our lap because it -- typically, everybody else, it 22 seems, with an interest, backs off. 23 Q: Okay. Let me turn you, lastly, 24 insofar as this transcript is concerned, to page 54. 25 You're being advised that -- of the resources that you
1341 have. 2 You have sixty (60) ERT guys and ten (10) 3 TRU people with Wade Lacroix. You ask, well, what's Wade 4 doing? 5 He's looking after the team, they suited 6 him up. He knows the area well. 7 And then your comment: 8 "Okay, well, all right. Wade's a good 9 guy and I've worked with Wade a long -- 10 a long time. Just make sure that you 11 or John control it." 12 Can you tell us what that's in relation 13 to? Is -- is there a suggestion there that we should 14 take that you were somehow concerned with Mr. Lacroix's 15 involvement? 16 A: Absolutely not. Rather, the OPP 17 probably didn't have a more qualified or better trained 18 person with respect to tactics. 19 As I explained yesterday, I'd worked on a 20 number of calls, personally, with Wade Lacroix and I'd 21 known him for a long time. 22 He has a very strong personality and -- 23 which is what you want in a leader, and he's not adverse 24 to giving you his opinion or telling you what he thinks 25 should be done which, again, is what you want.
1351 But I was subtly trying to reinforce the 2 fact that they were the incident commanders and 3 ultimately they had to make the decision. 4 What you want is your people to give you 5 options, not tell you what to do. You make the decision 6 based on that. 7 So I had no concerns about Wade. Like I 8 said, there was nobody probably with a better resume with 9 respect to these types of situations. 10 So our people were in good hands, but I 11 did put the cautionary note that they were the decision 12 makers. 13 Q: All right. They being the -- 14 A: Incident command. 15 Q: -- incident command, both Inspector 16 Linton as well as Inspector Carson. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And I anticipate, sir, that a 19 suggestion may be put to you that the reason that CMU and 20 TRU were marched up East Parkway towards the Park was 21 because of this information about a female non-Aboriginal 22 woman being attacked by Natives with bats. 23 Do you have any -- any view on that? 24 A: I hate to ask you to repeat that 25 question, sir, but I'm just not sure exactly what you
1361 said at the start of it. 2 Q: All I've indicated is that I think we 3 can anticipate that a suggestion may be made -- perhaps 4 I'll wait for -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 6 minute. Yes, Mr. Downard? 7 MR. PETER DOWNARD: It's not exactly my 8 issue but I -- I would think it would be more appropriate 9 if the Wit -- if there was no suggestion made to the 10 Witness and the Witness was asked as to what his 11 understanding was as to why. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 13 that's right. I think you should ask the question in a 14 more general way. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: That's -- and that's 16 entirely fair. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: I appreciate Mr. 19 Downard's assistance on that. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: Do you know the reason why TRU and 23 CMU were marched down the road to the Park on the evening 24 of September 6th, 1995? 25 A: Well, I believed at this time was
1371 that they were sent down to address a group of people 2 that were on the roadway or in the vicinity of the Park 3 to find out what was going on but not -- and I believe 4 they were given instruction not to go into the Park. But 5 I learned that after the fact. 6 Q: Do you know if Inspector Carson had 7 the same information that was given to you by Inspector 8 Linton as to the -- the female being attacked by Natives 9 with bats at that particular corner? 10 A: I would believe he would at least 11 have that information. I wouldn't know whether he had 12 received anymore current information. 13 Q: Subsequent to this event, sir, you 14 would have received a phone call from Inspector Linton 15 shortly after eleven o'clock? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. And what I'd like to do 18 at this point then is to play that -- is to play that 19 recording and it is a recording of September the 6th, 20 1995. 21 It's from the OPP post -- command post 22 logger transcript. It's time stamped at 23:07 hours and 23 a conversation between Dale Linton and Tony Parkin. 24 A: Is that Tab B? 25 Q: Yes and you'll find that at -- at Tab
1381 8 of the audio -- audio file -- audio brief, pardon me. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 5 23:07 HOURS 6 PARKIN: Hello. 7 LINTON: Tony. 8 PARKIN: Yes. 9 LINTON: Yeah, it's heating up, we got T.R.U. guys 10 were fired on from a vehicle, from inside 11 the Park and ah a school bus tried to run 12 them over and they returned fire, but they 13 don't believe they hit anybody, none of 14 our people are hit and they've backed off 15 now and they're going back to the ah the 16 T.O.C. and John is suggesting that we get 17 another T.R.U. down, we can send the 18 Barrie Team down. 19 20 (BACKGROUND RADIO TRANSMISSIONS) 21 22 LINTON: cause ah, we got ah volatile situation to 23 say the least and AH we can't have them 24 coming out of the Park out into the public 25 area obviously and now they're shooting.
1391 PARKIN: Yeah. 2 LINTON: So I'll think we'll if you concur, we'll 3 activate the Barrie T.R.U. Team to come 4 down. 5 PARKIN: Yeap. 6 LINTON: And ah. 7 PARKIN: Yeap do that ah. 8 LINTON: Jesus you know ah, guys are unpredictable. 9 PARKIN: Where were, where were our people when 10 they were fired on? 11 LINTON: They're right, they had ah arrested one 12 guy by the fence. 13 PARKIN: Okay. 14 LINTON: And ah they were fired on right, right at 15 the same location right as you go down the 16 hill there. 17 PARKIN: We still got the guy that we arrested or 18 did we lose that. 19 LINTON: No, they, they've still got 1092? 20 21 (BACKGROUND CONVERSATION) 22 23 LINTON: They, they confirmed a 1092 was coming 24 back in and the prisoner van went down and 25 since this other got going we haven't
1401 heard any more about it so. 2 PARKIN: Okay. 3 LINTON: No reason to believe we don't, but no 1092 4 in relation to the shoots fired. 5 PARKIN: No, and that was from the Park. 6 LINTON: Yeap. 7 PARKIN: Ah, ah. 8 LINTON: From, from a vehicle in the Park is the 9 way it came in and then apparently Wade 10 yelled that the school bus tried to run 11 over them. 12 PARKIN: Yup. 13 LINTON: And they returned fire. 14 PARKIN: Returned fire at the school bus? 15 LINTON: Yes, and ah so it's it's still sketchy, I 16 haven't had 17 PARKIN: Yeah. 18 LINTON: ah, but ah then he did a head count of his 19 E.R.T. guy er his T.R.U.'s and our guys 20 are okay, they've all counted for so we're 21 moving ehm back to the T.O.C. And ah, but 22 we believe they'll probably come back out 23 on the road again, and we just, we just 24 can't have them out there. 25 PARKIN: Okay.
1411 LINTON: So. 2 PARKIN: All right. 3 LINTON: Just a second, just a second. 4 5 (BACKGROUND CONVERSATION) 6 7 LINTON: Okay a 8 9 (BACKGROUND CONVERSATION) 10 11 LINTON: Okay a 911 call came in from 9780 Army 12 Camp Road. 13 PARKIN: Uhm uhm. 14 LINTON: And the person reported on the 911 call 15 that there were two people shot, and ah 16 I'm just advised now we have a pursuit 17 going and John has requested the Barrie 18 T.R.U. Team and he's also requested fifty 19 members, ah fifty officers ah preferably 20 E.R.T. and we've already got 1, 2, 3 and 6 21 here, and I think we should probably go 22 E.R.T. as opposed to uniform this thing, 23 so ah, we're looking at two more. 24 PARKIN: Okay. 25 LINTON: At least two more E.R.T. Teams, Jesus.
1421 PARKIN: Okay, you, you get a hold, you get those 2 personnel. 3 LINTON: Okay. 4 PARKIN: And call ah Barrie direct. 5 LINTON: Yeap. 6 PARKIN: Uhm and ah request their T.R.U. Team to 7 get down there, uhm. 8 LINTON: Now with E.R.T. were looking at 5 and ah 5 9 and 7 maybe, we'll have every E.R.T. 10 officer in Western Ontario down here, what 11 do you think? 12 PARKIN: Ah. 13 LINTON: Looks like, looks like was probably shot a 14 couple of people, not confirmed, but 15 possible. 16 PARKIN: We have an address that that call came 17 from? 18 LINTON: Yes. 19 PARKIN: So we should be able to get back to that 20 house. 21 LINTON: Yeah. 22 PARKIN: We got to find out what's going on there. 23 LINTON: Yeah. 24 PARKIN: And ah well start, get the T.R.U. Team 25 going first.
1431 LINTON: Okay. 2 PARKIN: Uhm get the 5 District E.R.T. Team, and 3 settle for that for right now. 4 LINTON: Okay. 5 PARKIN: Uhm, and then we'll see where we are in a 6 little bit, and I"ll be here, I'm gonna 7 make a couple calls and ah I'll probably 8 be back there. 9 LINTON: Okay I"ll call ya, I'll call you back if 10 we get anything more on these people shot. 11 PARKIN: Yeah, call, call me back as soon as you 12 hear something different in on that. 13 LINTON: Okay. 14 PARKIN: Okay. 15 LINTON: Yeah, thanks. 16 17 End of Conversation 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: You were able to follow that in the 21 transcript? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: All right. And I'd ask the 24 transcript be marked as the next exhibit please? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1059, Your Honour.
1441 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1059: Anthony Parkin audiotape 4 transcript, Parkin/Linton, 5 23:07 hours, Sept.06/95. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: That would have been the first report 9 that you would have received of gunfire in the Park? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. And aside from that I 12 take it that your only function at that point was to 13 await as you've indicated at the end of that conversation 14 further information? 15 A: Clearly they were trying to get some 16 confirmation and some -- a good handle on the situation. 17 Q: All right. If we turn to your 18 handwritten notes at page 30, Mr. Parkin, your indication 19 is 23:00 hours there's that question mark and you've 20 already explained that there's a further entry just to 21 the right of your notation of 23:00 hours with the time 22 23:13 and a further notation from the log? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: All right. And if I refer you to Tab 25 Number 18 of the book of documents in front of you, the
1451 large brief, at Tab number 18. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And at page 80 of those materials. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. And you'll see at the -- 11 at the entry 23:13 hours, do you see that on page 80, the 12 middle of page 80? 13 "Dale Linton calling Superintendent 14 Parkin. TRU guys fired on. Scopers 15 tried to hit them. They returned fire. 16 Don't think any casualties. Request 17 very TRU to be activated." 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: All right. Is that -- is that 20 perhaps where you might have got your entry 23:13 from? 21 A: That could be where I got it from, 22 yes, sir. 23 Q: And of course, you'll note that the 24 transcript that we have just been following along with 25 and I've just now marked, that bears the stamp of 23:07
1461 hours, okay? 2 Slight discrepancy in -- 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: -- terms of the time. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: I agree. 8 Q: But that would be on and the same as 9 far as -- as far as we can tell, correct? 10 A: I believe it to be. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: All right. I next want to go to Tab 16 9 of the audio brief file. It's a call that you receive 17 at 00:02 hours. 18 I know, Mr. Commissioner, this tape has 19 already been played, but I would suggest that it might be 20 useful if we played it now and I have some questions that 21 would arise out of that. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 23 long tape, I think, is it? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: It's a little bit -- 25 it's a little bit longer.
1471 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: It's currently marked 3 as part of Exhibit P-444B. It's found at Tab 62 and the 4 transcript of this is found at Tab 9 of the audio brief 5 in front -- in front of yourself and the Witness. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 CARSON and PARKIN 10 11 September 7, 1995 12 TIME: 00:02:37 hours 13 Track 3.wav 14 (dialling of phone...ringing in) 15 (inaudible background talking) 16 CARSON: (We we've got that '70 Nova is one of our 17 cars for the guy on the (I/A) there.) 18 (Background...sorry) 19 CARSON: (That '70 Nova is one of our guys in our 20 total the big the big guy, the six foot 21 four guy, '70 red Nova SS.) 22 (Inaudible background talking) 23 CARSON: Yeah I'm trying to get BABBIT and ah he's 24 not answering. 25 TONY: Hello.
1481 CARSON: Tony. 2 TONY: Yeah. 3 CARSON: John CARSON. 4 TONY: How are you now? 5 CARSON: I've been a fuck of a lot better. 6 TONY: Yeah. Anybody hit? 7 CARSON: Not our, our guys are all okay. 8 TONY: Yeah. 9 CARSON: Yeah it was two Natives ah apparently took 10 ah are on their way to the hospital took 11 some shots. 12 TONY: Is that confirmed now? 13 CARSON: Ah one one's in an ambulance and the other 14 one is delivered in a private car headed 15 to ah Strath. They went to a house over 16 in ah Arkona but the extent of the 17 injuries I don't know. 18 TONY: Okay well we better have somebody attend 19 at the hospital. 20 CARSON: Yeah but that's being well... 21 TONY: Yeah. 22 CARSON: Trying to address some of those issues. 23 TONY: Yeah I know. 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 TONY: We got one TRU Team coming...
1491 CARSON: Okay. 2 TONY: And one ERT Team. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 TONY: Ah (I/A). 5 CARSON: Okay well we went we went we we've went 6 back to plan B remember the ah plan from 7 '93 the checkpoints ah back away from the 8 Military Base and all that. 9 TONY: Huh huh. 10 CARSON: Ah we got a checkpoint right at ah the ah 11 ah where the TOC is there on on ah Parkway 12 Road, we're going to do evacuate everybody 13 ah from the TOC down to the ah ah beach to 14 where the ah Park is and we're going to 15 evacuate those on ah Army Camp Road as 16 well... and ah ah go back to those other 17 positions and and detour traffic around 21 18 Highway until we can get a handle on what 19 the hell's going on here. 20 TONY: Oh yeah. 21 CARSON: They they tried to mow our our guys down. 22 TONY: Where did this school bus come from? 23 CARSON: Well that that's a school bus they used ah 24 up at... 25 TONY: (I/A).
1501 CARSON: Yeah yeah that's the same one. It it came 2 through the fence pushing the ah garbage 3 bin ah side by side with a car and pushed 4 a garbage pin and they went right like our 5 guys had had ah they they wrote the ah ah 6 on that area where we moved picnic tables 7 today... 8 TONY: Yes. 9 CARSON: We went in and moved them back and they 10 went over the fence and no problem and and 11 we ordered them back ah they they barked 12 right out ah to the ah to the pavement and 13 and just ah you know took up ah defensive 14 position. 15 TONY: Right. 16 CARSON: Some of the guys came back over the fence 17 and they went forward and ah scooped one 18 guy and ah next thing you know this ah 19 they they were just going back ah against 20 to a take cover, they were ordered to take 21 cover they were they were actually they 22 were just ah forming up to ah back right 23 up to come back to the TOC and this thing 24 came through the ah the ah fence, hit the 25 ah ah ah garbage dumpster pushed it out
1511 with the bus ah a four a four door full 2 sized vehicle right beside it went right 3 through our guys and ah ah the one vehicle 4 the car I believe came right down the 5 fence the guys ordered split left and 6 right. A bunch of guys ran for the fence 7 and they went right through there a couple 8 of our guys were hit and went flying but 9 they're not seriously in not you know no 10 injuries to any significance they just got 11 some bumps and bruises. But two guys were 12 pinned between the fence and the car and 13 and just just within you know inches of 14 mowing them down and as it as the car ah 15 or as the bus the bus or the car...as one 16 vehicle went by anyway a hand gun comes 17 out the window and fired right into the 18 guys. 19 TONY: A hand gun? 20 CARSON: Yeah. Yeah they they opened fire on our 21 guys, our guys returned fire and the 22 sniper we had ah TRU, TRU ah Sniper Team 23 just you know observing. 24 TONY: Hmm hmm. 25 CARSON: And ah ah snipers opened fire and ah ah a
1521 long gun come out of the other vehicle and 2 they ah fired on it from that vehicle as 3 well. 4 TONY: Out of the bus? 5 CARSON: Ah out of both vehicles the car and the 6 bus were both being it ah shooting from. 7 TONY: So the snipers fired? 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 TONY: And so then we suspect that the people 10 that were hit were the people in the car 11 or the bus? 12 CARSON: One of the other yeah, I mean they they 13 just opened fire in return like just you 14 know... 15 TONY: And then they took off. 16 CARSON: Yeah, yeah. 17 TONY: Back into the Park? 18 CARSON: That's right. 19 TONY: And now they're on route to the hospital. 20 CARSON: Yeah. 21 TONY: Where did this 911 call come from... 22 CARSON: No idea...Tom now I I just got information 23 that they were in the maintenance shack 24 and used the telephone, now whether you 25 know how how fresh of information that I
1531 cause I just walked in here I was I was 2 out ah because of the Comms here, I went 3 down and when the Crowd ah Management ah 4 Unit was moving or going to be deployed, I 5 went down and stayed in the ah with the 6 with the TRU Team leader there. 7 TONY: Yeah. 8 CARSON: While they were doing the cover for the 9 Crowd Control. 10 TONY: Yeah I think we... 11 CARSON: So... 12 TONY: I think we better get ah uhm some audio 13 picked up. 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 TONY: We certainly got enough now. 16 CARSON: Ahhhh... 17 TONY: And I think ah should call them tonight... 18 CARSON: Okay, yeah I'll I'll handle that. 19 TONY: Call call ah call Duty Officer. 20 CARSON: Yeah, well I think they're here. 21 TONY: Oh okay well... 22 CARSON: I'm sure they were working on it earlier 23 this afternoon. 24 TONY: Well then get them writing the paper. 25 CARSON: Well they were working on it ah I forget
1541 the guy's name but I I don't know them 2 personally but ah... 3 TONY: Oh okay. 4 CARSON: Them and Trevor was were at working at 5 this afternoon. 6 TONY: Okay ah who are our officers that did the 7 shooting? 8 CARSON: Uhm well I know LECROIX was one ah but 9 which which other ah...well he was right 10 in there ah ah but which the other guy in 11 ERT I I couldn't tell you off hand. Uhm 12 the ah ah...I believe it's BEAUCHESNE ah 13 DEANE and KLYM ah were the ah TRU Team 14 shooters. 15 TONY: Okay. Has anybody called SIU? 16 CARSON: Ah I haven't got that far. 17 TONY: No ah it's... 18 CARSON: Ah another thing before before I we get 19 into that ah a press release I just I just 20 got a call here from the the ah GLOBE AND 21 MAIL I just told them ah they got through 22 to me and ah when I realized who it was I 23 just said I'm too busy to talk to you. 24 TONY: Hmm hmm. 25 CARSON: I got a call from Ovide MERCREDI another
1551 news media we we've we're screening the 2 phone calls here better now but ah another 3 media guy got through to Dale here but we 4 just told them we're busy. Ah but they're 5 hounding us we called Bob BABBIT out to 6 handle that... 7 TONY: Yeah. 8 CARSON: Ah but we're going to have to say 9 something. Ah how do you want me to 10 handle that? 11 TONY: You say you got a call from MERCREDI? 12 CARSON: Yeah he he called here...just when the 13 shooting was going on ironically. 14 TONY: Talk did anybody talk to him? 15 CARSON: Ah Mark WRIGHT talked to him very briefly 16 all he said he said you know we're not 17 prepared to discuss anything right now and 18 he what he wanted to know was were we ah 19 we weren't going into the Park were we. 20 TONY: Nerve. 21 CARSON: Yeah, well we we were actually withdrawing 22 from the damn thing when when they came 23 out and charged them. They went back into 24 the Park and that's what well one once 25 they were back in Park I told the guys to
1561 back out. 2 TONY: Okay I think three things have got to be 3 done. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 TONY: Number one is that they are on route to 6 the hospital. 7 CARSON: Right. 8 TONY: They may in fact be taking the car that 9 they were shot in. 10 CARSON: Okay. 11 TONY: If that's the case we need that car. 12 CARSON: Okay. Okay. 13 TONY: Ah and ah I doubt there would be any 14 weapons in it that is also a possibility 15 that they may have the guns still in the 16 car. 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 TONY: So that's got to be done, we got to be 19 down there to interview them and 20 everything in any case. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 TONY: Attempt to interview them. 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 TONY: Uhm the officers that did the shooting... 25 CARSON: I'm sorry?
1571 TONY: The officers that did the shooting... 2 CARSON: Yes. 3 TONY: We're going to have to get their guns. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 TONY: And give them other guns. 6 CARSON: Alright. 7 TONY: But we're going to need those those guns 8 put aside. 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 TONY: And secured somewhere. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 TONY: And be able to account for the continuity 13 of that. 14 CARSON: Yeah. Yeah okay. 15 TONY: And a press release ah...don't do anything 16 on the press release till we talk to Media 17 Relations. 18 CARSON: So do you want to do that or do you want 19 me to handle it? 20 TONY: Ah... 21 (inaudible background talking) 22 TONY: We're not going to give anything out right 23 now. 24 CARSON: Well the problem is are we going to 25 confirm that there were shootings? Are we
1581 going to confirm... 2 TONY: We're simply saying that there was...are 3 they calling to find out about that. 4 CARSON: Oh fuck they're all over the place yeah 5 there's ah a TV truck there at the 6 checkpoint when I come out. 7 TONY: Ohhh. Oh okay so they're right on the 8 scene. 9 CARSON: Yeah oh yeah. 10 TONY: Oh okay. 11 CARSON: Like we're screwed that way. 12 TONY: Well I guess there's nothing not too much 13 we can do about that, and...so we're 14 probably going to have to confirm the 15 fact...shots have been fired and they may 16 have heard them. 17 CARSON: Alright I guess guess my only concern is 18 we we probably have a window of 19 opportunity here to kind of set the record 20 as straight as we can before SIU puts the 21 gloves on us. 22 TONY: Well I don't think SIU is going to 23 anything at this time like that situation 24 is still going on and I don't think 25 there's going to be any investigation
1591 concluded. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 TONY: Well that's what I think ah in the in the 4 cool light of day they may come down ah to 5 Forest or something but you know ah...I 6 hope that they're not stupid enough to 7 want to go ah right there right now. 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 TONY: But so we can't interfere with that 10 anyway. 11 CARSON: Alright. 12 TONY: And ah...and I guess we better get a hold 13 of CIB. 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 TONY: So uhm what you should start doing is 16 having Babbit ah prepare a press release. 17 Ah well actually no actually we shouldn't 18 have any press release because once SIU is 19 involved we can't give out a press 20 release...correct? 21 CARSON: Well again like I say there's a window of 22 opportunity here. 23 TONY: Mmmh. 24 CARSON: Like we're we're being hounded by them and 25 like if we don't if we don't at least
1601 confirm that I think we're going to be you 2 know looking like egg on our face or 3 trying to say that there was or there 4 wasn't you know not admitting there is 5 something going on and we we're we're now 6 into you know re-routing traffic off of 21 7 Highway until we get a handle on this. 8 Ahhh... 9 TONY: If what they're asking has any shots been 10 fired we can confirm that shots have been 11 fired. 12 CARSON: Ah okay ah just play devil's advocate here 13 but they're going to ask were shots fired 14 by police or the Natives? Like I would 15 like personally my my opinion ah Tony is 16 that ah ah that our guys ah these vehicles 17 drove drove... 18 (background...one of their...Dudley's dead. Dudley's 19 dead) 20 CARSON: What? 21 (Background...Dudley...he's dead. Trevor's at the 22 hospital he's dead. The other guy Nicholas Cottrelle 23 Cottrelle Trev thinks he's going to live, the other guy 24 we don't know who he is, we're not sure whether he's 25 doing to live or not...)
1611 (Background...(I/A) we might have three dead ones there). 2 CARSON: Hear that? 3 TONY: What? 4 CARSON: We got one dead anyway...Dudley, Dudley's 5 dead. 6 TONY: ...oh I got to write this down. 7 TONY: Dudley. Dudley GEORGE is dead. 8 TONY: GEORGE. 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 (inaudible background talking) 11 TONY: (I/A) or something. 12 CARSON: No Dudley he's a really ah he's from (I/A) 13 big time ah ah source you know... 14 TONY: He's he's been (I/A) confirmed dead? 15 CARSON: Yeah Trevor's at the hospital. 16 TONY: At the hospital. 17 CARSON: RICHARDSON and Randy... 18 TONY: So is there one wounded? 19 (Background talking...other guy's dead) 20 CARSON: I'm sorry I got just a minute I got two 21 things going here, I'm sorry Tony? 22 TONY: One dead... 23 CARSON: Yeah. 24 TONY: Dudley GEORGE. 25 CARSON: Yeah.
1621 TONY: And one wounded? 2 CARSON: One wounded (what's wrong with the third 3 guy you said?) 4 (Background...he's alive) 5 CARSON: (We don't know what his injuries are?) 6 (Background...well just yeah we know his injuries) 7 CARSON: (So where's he at?) 8 (Background...Strathroy they're all at Strathroy) 9 CARSON: (All three of them.) 10 (Background...all of them) 11 CARSON: Okay all three of them are in Strathroy. 12 TONY: Strathroy okay. 13 CARSON: Trevor's there. 14 TONY: Yeah, has he got has Trevor got somebody 15 with him? 16 CARSON: (Whose with Trevor?) 17 (Background...Trevor, Mark, DEW) 18 CARSON: (How many guys are there?) 19 (Background...I got five, five or six Crime guys there, 20 Randy's going to replace Trevor because 21 Trevor's going to be like a pallbearer to 22 his family tomorrow. 23 CARSON: Okay five there's five five or six crime 24 guys are there. 25 TONY: Okay you better make sure that there's
1631 enough there in case a bunch of those 2 Indians go over there and go crazy. 3 CARSON: That's right, well yeah we're going to 4 have that's right cover that. 5 TONY: Yeah and ah...see that(I/A). 6 CARSON: One one of the unknown person we don't 7 know who he is. 8 TONY: Okay but one's dead. Okay. 9 CARSON: (Whose the other guy?) 10 (Background...don't know we don't know) 11 CARSON: (Well you had three names) 12 (background...I had two I've got Nicholas, Catrel...) 13 CARSON: Catrel. 14 (Background...and Dudley) 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 (background...and that's it I don't know this other guy 17 and I 18 don't know if he's still living, Trevor's 19 going to find out). 20 CARSON: Okay okay well okay. 21 TONY: Okay John... 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 TONY: Okay, the guys who did the shooting... 24 CARSON: Yeah. 25 TONY: Get them ah isolated somewhere.
1641 CARSON: Yeah. 2 TONY: (I/A) 3 CARSON: Yeah. 4 TONY: Get their guns. 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 TONY: Make sure they're secured. 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 TONY: Okay and if they want ah legal 9 representation... 10 CARSON: I've I've already told them I've already 11 suggested that. 12 TONY: Okay, alright that's all (I/A) ah...I'll 13 call ah the Chief... 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 TONY: Let him know what's going on, ah we'll get 16 a hold of ah CID. 17 CARSON: Hmm hmm. 18 TONY: And ah SIU. 19 CARSON: So you'll you'll handle all that? 20 TONY: Yeah. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 TONY: Like ahhh...I didn't go back to the office 23 today ah have you got the GHQ the Duty 24 Officer number? 25 CARSON: Ah...the new yes I think I got the new
1651 number here. They changed with the move 2 to ah...Orillia (rustling noise). Oh here 3 we go...GHQ Duty Officer...329-6950. 4 TONY: 329-6950. Okay so you do that ah if you 5 get hounded by the press on this or they 6 show up at the hospital you better get 7 somebody to deal with the media at the 8 hospital. 9 CARSON: Yeah. 10 TONY: And ah confirm only that the fact ah shots 11 were fired... 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 TONY: And uhm...yeah an exchange between police 14 and First Nations persons. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 TONY: Okay? 17 CARSON: Yeah. 18 TONY: And an investigation is being conducted. 19 CARSON: Okay. 20 TONY: And that's all for now. 21 CARSON: Okay. 22 TONY: Okay you look after that and I'll get ah 23 back to you. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 TONY: What's your number?
1661 CARSON: Ah I'm at 786-1262. 2 TONY: 786-1262. 3 CARSON: Yeah. 4 TONY: Okay. 5 CARSON: Thanks. 6 TONY: Alright. 7 CARSON: Bye. 8 9 End of Conversation. 10 11 MR. DONALD WORME: That's the end of that 12 conversation, Commissioner, and given the -- the time 13 perhaps we can break for lunch at this point. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 15 is a good time to break for lunch. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 17 adjourned until 1:15. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 12:03 p.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 1:15 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed, please be seated. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, 25 Commissioner.
1671 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 2 afternoon. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, Mr. 4 Parkin. 5 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: Mr. Parkin, just before the -- the 9 break I had played the recording, the audiotape which you 10 will find at Tab 9 which was recorded at :02 hours on 11 the, I guess, early morning of the 7th. 12 Just before we go into that I just want to 13 take you back to the earlier recording that I played for 14 you and that is the recording between yourself and 15 Inspector Linton which you'll find at Tab 7. It's 16 already an exhibit, that's P-469. 17 And I was -- there was a number of 18 questions that I just had to -- just to finish off that 19 particular aspect of it, if I may. That's where 20 Inspector Linton had advised you that -- that a woman's 21 vehicle had been attacked by a number of Natives wielding 22 baseball bats, that sort of thing? 23 A: Yes, sir? 24 Q: And you've indicated that at some 25 point in time you found out that in fact it wasn't a
1681 woman, that in fact it was Gerald George, and your notes 2 would seem to indicate that. You had an opportunity to 3 find that out at some point? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. Can you tell us when it 6 was that you found out it was a man, Gerald George, and 7 not a woman that -- whose vehicle had been damaged? 8 A: I don't have specific recollection 9 but it would have been between the time I picked up Chief 10 Superintendent Coles and the time we eventually arrived 11 at Grand Bend Detachment. And I'm thinking that was 12 approximately 4:30 to 5:00 in the morning. 13 Q: And you also found out at some point 14 that the -- the vehicle belonging to this individual was 15 not hit by a baseball but, in fact, was struck with a 16 rock? 17 You did find that out, did you? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I can't be 100 percent positive but I 22 -- I seem to think there was maybe both involved. 23 Q: You might have received that 24 information at the same time, is your best recollection? 25 A: That would be my best recollection.
1691 Q: All right. Thank you for that. If 2 we can then carry on. If I can ask you to turn to the 3 transcript that you'll find at Tab 9 of your audiotape 4 brief; that's the phone call between yourself and 5 Inspector Carson at 00:02 hours? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. And you're getting -- 8 you're getting advice at that point in time that there 9 were two (2) Natives on the way to the hospital, that 10 there -- that there had been some shots taken? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And there is some discussion about 13 evacuation of the area. You'll find that at page 372 and 14 373; that's evacuation of the local area, the cottages 15 perhaps in the -- in the immediate vicinity? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Okay. And at pages 373 and 376 you 18 have Inspector Carson's account of the events that had 19 just occurred? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Through 374. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at 375, the -- the indication was 24 given to you by Inspector Carson that there were shots 25 coming out of both vehicles, that is to say both the car
1701 and the bus that had exited the Park? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Okay. At page 377, sir, at the top, 4 with Carson: 5 "So, Tony, I think we'd better get, um, 6 some audio picked up." 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Do you see that? And is that in 9 relation to the probes that were -- that were earlier 10 planted? 11 A: I would believe so, yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. And do you know whether 13 any of that audio was eventually picked up? Did you have 14 occasion to see any such -- any such evidence? 15 A: Audio, no. 16 Q: Right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And at page 378, it starts with: 21 "Them and Trevor was -- were at -- 22 working this afternoon. 23 TONY: Okay, ah, who are our officers 24 that did the shooting? 25 CARSON: Um, well, I know Lacroix was
1711 one of, but which other, ah. [and then 2 he says] Well, he was right there, but 3 ah, which other guy at ERT, I couldn't 4 tell you off hand." 5 Now, do you recall whether there was 6 something that was said in there, and I certainly didn't 7 pick up anything on the audio, but did you ask him a 8 question if somebody was involved? 9 A: I didn't hear anything, sir. I don't 10 recall. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. And then you 12 asked, the very next line: 13 "Has anybody called SIU?" 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. And at the bottom of the page 17 there's that discussion about receiving a call from Ovide 18 Mercredi? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Right. If you turn to the next page 21 at 379, you're talking about Ovide Mercredi or Mr. -- 22 Inspector Carson is telling you about his call from Ovide 23 Mercredi, okay? 24 And he tells you, at the middle of the 25 page:
1721 "CARSON: Ah, Mark Wright told -- 2 talked to him very briefly and he said, 3 you know, we're not prepared to discuss 4 anything right now and he wanted to 5 know -- what he wanted to know, [pardon 6 me], was were we, ah, we weren't going 7 into the Park were we? [and your 8 comment is] 9 Nerve." 10 What -- do you want to speak to that? 11 A: Probably a little exasperation on -- 12 on my part that being questioned when all this was 13 happening. 14 Q: All right. It was more the timing of 15 the events -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- more than anything? All right. 18 There's then the discussion where you 19 advise Inspector Carson that he should ensure that the 20 car that had transported Dudley George to the hospital 21 was seized. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Out of the appearance, at least, that 24 it may well have been involved in the altercation that 25 had just occurred earlier?
1731 A: Given the information that had been 2 passed on to me, it seemed certainly a potential. 3 Q: And that it may yield some evidence 4 insofar as -- 5 A: It could -- it could hold some -- 6 Q: -- you -- 7 A: -- evidence and it was something that 8 at least couldn't be overlooked until it was checked out. 9 Q: Okay. At the bottom of page 389 you 10 begin to speak about the press release. 181 -- 381, 11 pardon me. 12 A: I'm sorry. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: "And the press release, don't do 17 anything on the press release until we 18 talk to media relations." 19 Do you see that? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Okay. So you have a bit of 22 discussion with Inspector Carson about that. He's making 23 certain inquiries of you, or what are we going to say, 24 that sort of thing. 25 And at the bottom of page 382 he tells you
1741 that his only concern is that we probably have a window 2 of opportunity here in order to set the record. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: As straight as we can before SIU puts 5 the gloves on us, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he says it again at the bottom of 8 page 383 after you continue this discussion about what 9 SIU might be doing in the interim. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you indicate that you would be: 12 "I guess we better get a hold of CIB." 13 And that's the Criminal Investigations 14 Branch. 15 A: Yes, it is, sir. 16 Q: Right. And so just at the bottom of 17 that same page, at 383, there's the notation: 18 "Tony: So what you should start doing 19 is having Babbitt prepare a press 20 release. Well, actually no -- actually 21 we shouldn't do -- we shouldn't have 22 any press release because once SIU is 23 involved we can't give out a press 24 release, correct?" 25 And it seems to me you're asking Inspector
1751 Carson just for his -- his view on that. 2 A: I don't know -- I don't know if I'd 3 agree I was asking, I may have been putting it in -- in a 4 terminology such as, 'correct.' 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Not asking, just stating. 7 Q: And his view again is that, well at 8 that point in time, is that we still have this window of 9 opportunity and -- and he's suggesting that that should 10 be part of the consideration I think -- 11 A: Yes, it was -- 12 Q: -- is that fair? Perhaps just before 13 we go on, Mr. Parkin, what was the protocol where there 14 was a police shooting at that time in September of 1995, 15 insofar as involving the Special Investigations Unit, 16 alerting them and having them involved? 17 A: Well, there were a number of types of 18 occurrences that might necessarily require a call to SIU 19 by the protocol; a serious bodily injury or death. 20 Clearly, this is a type of issue that we were dealing 21 with here. I was aware of the fact that, by the 22 protocol, we had a duty to notify SIU. 23 And that is what I was prepared to do. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I was also aware that because of the
1761 protocol, when SIU is involved and when they exercise 2 their mandate, there's -- they then assume the 3 responsibility for any news or media releases. 4 And we were in that timeframe where I was 5 going to call SIU on behalf of John. And in my mind, 6 clearly, I knew that this was the type of occurrence that 7 SIU would invoke their mandate. 8 Within the OPP our -- our broader 9 guidelines with respect to dealing with SIU was always 10 that we would fully co-operate. But you have to 11 appreciate that the relationship between the police in 12 general and SIU has been a -- a work in progress. 13 We've worked through a number of different 14 directors and sometimes the relationship perhaps wasn't 15 always as smooth as it may have been. As we were getting 16 comfortable with their role in these types of 17 occurrences, investigations, and I think on their part, 18 with them coming in and working through their mandate, it 19 had to be done very carefully. 20 That's why we would always contact, in 21 these types of cases, a shooting, our Criminal 22 Investigations Bureau. And they would attend -- they 23 would assign somebody who would attend at the site also 24 and assume the responsibilities for the criminal 25 investigations with respect to the OPP, and they would
1771 liaise with the SIU. 2 So the discussion that I'm having with 3 John and John is talking about a window of opportunity, 4 that -- that's his terminology, it wasn't uncommon back 5 in those times that some police agencies, and this is not 6 a criticism by my of any police agency, but some police 7 agencies -- and there was a -- a general belief that that 8 was an opportunity, there was an opportunity before the 9 SIU invoked their mandate to make a press release. 10 Clearly, my position on the phone with 11 them, at the time, was a given that I knew that they 12 would invoke their mandate that we shouldn't get too deep 13 in the media releases. 14 So that's where I'm basically agreeing 15 with them that, well, we should, in fact confirm what 16 they may have already heard, but that was about as far as 17 I was prepared to go. 18 Q: Okay. He also informs you that he's 19 surrounded by media, that there was media, I think you 20 said, right at the -- right at the site that he was at? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And they were, to use his words 23 again, hounding him to get something out? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And ultimately you agreed that
1781 something should get out and I think you left it that it 2 would be -- 3 A: The confirmation of the fact that 4 there had been an exchange of gunfire. 5 Q: And that there was an investigation 6 ensuing. 7 A: I don't recall that I said that but I 8 may have. 9 Q: Okay. Just -- just insofar as 10 alerting CIB and SIU at page 389 of the transcript, you 11 indicate that you would call the Chief, that you would 12 let him know what's going on and you'll get a hold of CIB 13 and SIU and Inspector Carson asks you: 14 "So you'll handle that?" 15 And at the top of page 390 you say: 16 "Yeah.". 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. And you asked him for the 19 number for General Headquarters? 20 A: Yes, this relates to what I had said 21 earlier. I was at home and I didn't have my phone book 22 which I usually keep in -- along with my notebook and 23 other work equipment. 24 Q: All right. We know that this 25 telephone conversation with Inspector Carson occurred at
1791 approximate two (2) minutes past midnight. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: All right. And if I could ask you to 4 turn to Tab Number 18 of the book of documents in front 5 of you, that is the scribe notes, at page 82. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes, sir? 10 Q: You see that entry at page 82 at 11 00:09 hours? 12 "John Carson called Superintendent 13 Parkin at residence and disclosed 14 events." 15 That would seem consistent with what we've 16 just heard and what you've just testified to? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: All right. And if you just go down 19 to 00:25 hours: 20 "Off phone. Superintendent Parkin to 21 notify SIU and Chief Coles." 22 Do you see that? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And he goes on -- the scribe note 25 goes on to record other information which would seem
1801 consistent with the information and the discussion that 2 you just had with Inspector Carson. 3 A: That's correct, sir. 4 Q: All right. The next thing I want to 5 take you to then is... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: The next thing I want to take you to 10 is the general log. It's Inquiry Document 5000326 and 11 I'm not -- I don't believe that we've put this in our 12 list of documents, Commissioner, but I can tell you that 13 it is simply the -- the log from the General Headquarters 14 Duty Log. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: All right. And if you turn to the 17 second page which is numbered 134 at the top under the 18 time 00:35. Do you see that entry there? 19 "Superintendent A. Parkin, West Region 20 telephoned to request CIB signing 21 officer phone him re. two (2) shootings 22 by officers at Ipperwash Provincial 23 Park and also advise Ms. Murray to 24 telephone him." 25 A: Yes, sir.
1811 Q: That would have been the call that 2 you would have placed as a result of your conversation 3 and advice to Inspector Carson that you were going to do 4 so? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. I'd ask that this be made 7 the next exhibit. 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: It's Exhibit -- 9 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 10 I'm just -- 11 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- P-595. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: It is already an 13 exhibit, it's P-595. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: And do you -- do you recall who it 17 was that you would have called at General Headquarters in 18 order to pass this information along? 19 A: General Headquarters, the GHQ Duty 20 Office is -- there's somebody there twenty-four (24) 21 hours, and it normally would be a sergeant that I would 22 be speaking to. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: The name I can't recall. 25 Q: All right. Does the name Larry
1821 Edgar, does that mean anything to you? 2 A: Yes. Larry -- I would have called 3 GHQ, they would have paged Larry Edgar, got the message 4 from GHQ and then Larry Edgar, who works with CIB -- 5 Q: I see. 6 A: -- would have called me. 7 Q: Beyond your calling the general 8 headquarters to pass along this information, did you have 9 any further obligation insofar as, as you put it, the 10 duty to notify SIU? 11 A: Yes, I -- I took on that 12 responsibility. 13 Q: And beyond phoning the general 14 headquarters, did you do anything further insofar as 15 contacting SIU? 16 A: No. What takes place is I notify 17 CIB, they're the conduit that we have arranged when the 18 field, and this was a field occurrence, requires SIU. 19 Larry Edgar, after talking to me, would 20 then have gotten a hold of SIU. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. But that 22 would essentially have discharged your obligation? 23 A: That's correct, sir. 24 Q: Thank you. Do you know whether or 25 not you had received a call back from Larry Edgar?
1831 A: Yes, I did, sir. 2 Q: And did he advise you as to who would 3 have been assigned? 4 A: Yes he did. He gave me a preliminary 5 thought that it would be, I believe it was a Detective 6 Inspector Wally Baker. 7 Q: And did you have any further 8 dealings, at that point in time, insofar as either 9 alerting the Special Investigations Unit or doing 10 anything further with them? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: All right. Let me just take you back 13 then to -- to the transcript. I know I jumped ahead a 14 little bit. 15 We left off looking at page 383 where this 16 discussion about the window of opportunity came up, and 17 you've already spoken to that. 18 And if you go to page 384, that discussion 19 would seem to be continuing and Inspector Carson is 20 asking you: 21 "You know, we're going to be asked how 22 many shots were fired or who shot, 23 rather, whether it was shots by the 24 police or by the Natives." 25 Do you see that, right in the middle of
1841 the page? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And right at the moment, that's when 4 we hear over the transcript, that: 5 "Dudley is dead, Dudley is dead." 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. At that point in time did 11 you know who Dudley George was? 12 A: No, sir. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And you have this discussion about 17 ensuring them that there are sufficient officers at 18 Strathroy Hospital, correct? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And at page 387, after getting 21 certain advice as to what resources are available at the 22 Strathroy Hospital, there's a comment attributed to you 23 towards the bottom of the page: 24 "Okay, you better make sure there's 25 enough there in case a bunch of those
1851 Indians go over there and go crazy." 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: All right. I just want to give you 4 an opportunity to speak to that comment, if you would, 5 please. 6 A: Well, it was a very emotionally 7 charged situation; there had been a death, or at least a 8 death had been reported to me. Clearly, there had been 9 an altercation between the police and the First Nations. 10 I was having officers attend at the 11 hospital. There was a potential of seizing the vehicle. 12 I don't think it would have been out of the question for 13 anybody, regardless of whether the police that had been 14 involved with the First Nation shooting, or any other 15 culture, that when those people arrived at the hospital 16 looking for their loved one, and the first thing that 17 they're going to confront is the police, that clearly 18 they wouldn't be happy with, in all likelihood, in any 19 case, and the police are going to have to take some 20 action. But there's a potential there for further 21 confrontation. 22 My terminology may not have been the best 23 or most professional, but that was the message I was 24 trying to get across. 25
1861 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: As the incident commander, did you 4 have -- did you -- I take it you felt it was necessary to 5 provide the Incident Commander, Inspector Carson, with 6 that sort of instruction? 7 A: I'm sure he would have taken those 8 steps but given that we were on the phone call it was an 9 opportunity for us to both kind of work together during 10 that phone call. It was something that came to my mind, 11 I suggested it to him. 12 But I'm sure that in all likelihood these 13 steps were already were already in process regardless. 14 Q: Thank you. Perhaps if I can just 15 have you refer then to your personal -- your handwritten 16 notes; if you go to page 31 of those notes, sir. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: I take it there is no note of this 19 conversation with Inspector Carson. 20 A: Are you referring to the taped 21 conversation that we just listened to? 22 Q: Yes, that's right. 23 A: Yes, that's correct. 24 Q: All right. And if we just go through 25 your notes it would seem that on the 7th of September,
1871 you start them at 0:10 hours when you get in touch with 2 Chief Superintendent Coles to advise him of the 3 situation? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: All right. And you have the notation 9 that 00:35 when you spoke to Superintendent Larry Edgar. 10 A: That's correct. Again I'm trying to 11 go from my memory. 12 Q: And that coincides with the document 13 that I had just taken you to -- the log from the general 14 headquarters? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: All right. And at 02:00 hours -- and 17 there's a question mark there, do you see that? Just 18 behind it? 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: That you would have then picked up 21 Chief Superintendent Coles and you drove to the Forest 22 Detachment? 23 A: Correct, sir. 24 Q: All right. In between that time, it 25 would seem that there was another phone call that you had
1881 had with Tony -- pardon me, with Mark Wright. 2 Do you recall having a conversation first 3 of all with Mark Wright subsequent to your conversation 4 with Larry Edgar? 5 A: I believe my -- I'm aware of it now. 6 Q: Perhaps what we can do is just go 7 ahead and play that -- play that tape. You'll find that 8 at Tab 10 of the audio brief file. 9 A: Thank you. Thank you. 10 Q: The transcript of that, that is. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 15 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 16 17 AP: Hello? 18 MW: Hello. Superintendent? 19 AP: Yes. 20 MW: Hi. Its Mark. 21 AP: How are you doing Mark? 22 MW: ...well. I'm okay I guess. Look I'm sorry to 23 bother you but John needs six hands and eight 24 mouths and I need some information. 25 AP: Yes.
1891 MW: I know he talked to you and you guys were 2 looking after notifying SIU, right? 3 AP: Yeah. And CIB. 4 MW: Okay. That's what I needed to know. CIB. Like 5 is somebody - is somebody from CIB going to get 6 back to me about who's rockin' and rollin' down 7 here, or...? 8 AP: Okay. I talked to Larry Edgar. 9 MW: Yeah? 10 AP: I just got off the line with him. 11 MW: Yeah? 12 AP: He's going to sign - he's looking - he's 13 probably going to get Wally Baker. 14 MW: Good. I know him real well. 15 AP: Right. And he's in the Goderich area. But he 16 probably hasn't got a hold of him yet. He's 17 trying to do that as we speak.. 18 MW: [laughs] Okay. 19 AP: And he's also going to notify SIU. 20 MW: Okay. 21 AP: I'm just getting my uniform on and I'm coming 22 down. 23 MW: Good. 'Cause its fuckin' nuts here! 24 AP: Yup. What - is anything more happening? Any 25 more shots, any...?
1901 MW: No. No. We had an - we had an armed take-down 2 at Forest detachment here. It took - it was a 3 brother, one of the guys we hit. We turned him 4 loose. Now we've got Spike George, the ex- 5 inspector, with the brother of the dead guy, in 6 our perimeter waiting to speak to somebody. So 7 he's going to speak to John. But John's talking 8 to media relations. 9 AP: Good. Okay, that's the other thing I called 10 Marilyn Murray and... 11 MW: [interrupting] That's who he's talking to. 12 Right now.. 13 AP: All right. So - those things are all being 14 done. 15 MW: Yup. I've got a cast of thousands at Strathroy 16 Hospital. Crime. Ident. I got John Stevens from 17 2 District doing the PIO there for me, I got... 18 AP: Strathroy? Is the PF aware of this? 19 MW: Not yet but I've got Strathroy OPP staff 20 sergeant down there handling security. I said I 21 want at least ten uniformed officers down there 22 right away. 23 AP: Okay. Make sure somebody lets the city know 24 what's going on in case we have an incident at 25 the hospital.
1911 MW: Okay. I got Smethurst who's the acting DS down 2 there - I got him rolling to give my guy some 3 hand up there. The only thing I missed was the 4 Strathroy PD. 5 AP: Just in case something blows there, its their 6 area... 7 MW: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 8 AP: And like I said I'm just going to pick the 9 chief up and we'll probably be there - but you 10 know its going to be an hour and a half. 11 MW: Yeah I know, yeah, yeah. Everybody's working on 12 adrenalin here now. 13 AP: But as far as anything else, just try ... 14 MW: (interrupting)...and maintain. 15 AP: The best you can is just contain. 16 MW: Yeah, I understand. 17 AP: Okay. 18 MW: Yeah, maintain. Don't let things deteriorate. 19 AP: You guys haven't done anything wrong. So we... 20 MW: [interrupting] No, no! Neither do I! I don't 21 have any problems with that. 22 AP: We don't have any problems with this at all. 23 MW: I appreciate your support but I don't have any 24 problem with it either. I know we did what we 25 had to do. They shot at us.
1921 AP: That's right. 2 MW: Thank Christ none of our guys got hit. 3 AP: That's right. That's the important thing. 4 MW: I heard it over the comms and fuck, I'm ten 5 years older. So, I can't believe it. 6 AP: I know. Okay, well, we'll be talking with you 7 personally shortly. If you need me you can get 8 me - either, well, you can get me on the cell 9 phone in the car. 10 MW: Yeah, I just needed to know if CIB was coming 11 'cause I'm in the dark here. 'Cause I - I can't 12 control any scene down there because fuck 13 its... I'm not going down there with any... 14 AP: Don't jeopardize safety down there. 15 MW: No. I'm not doing nothing down there right now. 16 AP: Don't worry about it. 17 MW: Yeah, okay. 18 AP: If you can do it safely that's fine. If you 19 can't we'll tell 'em later, hey we just 20 couldn't do it. 21 MW: That's right. Got it. 22 AP: Okay? 23 MW: Okay Boss. 24 AP: Okay, be talking to you. 25 MW: Okay, bye.
1931 End of conversation 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: You were able to follow that in the 5 transcript? 6 A: Yes, I was, sir. 7 Q: Perhaps I can ask that that 8 transcript be marked as the next exhibit please? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1060, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1060: Anthony Parkin audiotape 12 transcript, Parkin/Wright, 13 00:57 hours, Sept. 07/'95. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: And I take it, Mr. Parkin, at this 17 point your -- your job is still simply to try to find out 18 what went on, to try to get some further accurate 19 information? 20 A: Yes, sir, basically to try and keep a 21 handle on what is happening. 22 Q: All right. And then, of course, you 23 inform him that it was your intention to pick up the 24 Chief and then attend to the -- to the Command Post? 25 A: That's correct.
1941 Q: All right. And I believe you were 2 just telling us that you were in the process of -- of 3 doing so and your notes would seem to indicate that at 4 approximately 02:00 hours? I'm referring now to your 5 handwritten notes at page 31? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: During the course of your travel from 8 London to Forest, did you receive any further phone calls 9 on the cell phone that you had advised Sergeant Wright 10 that you would be available on? 11 A: Chief Coles and I were together. I 12 can't independently recall getting another phone call on 13 the way there. 14 Q: And your notes would indicate that 15 you did arrive at -- at Forest Incident Command Post, 16 that you spoke with Inspector J. Carson and Detective 17 Sergeant Trevor Richardson; briefed on what had occurred? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Did you receive any further 20 information in terms of that briefing that you haven't 21 already testified to or that we haven't heard? 22 A: Not that I can recall, sir. 23 Q: And following that you had attended 24 to the Grand Bend Detachment where an operations centre 25 was set up?
1951 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Your next entry, sir, on the next 3 page, on page 32, it's under 07 September 1995 or '95 4 rather, 18:00 hours? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: When you arrived at the Command Post 11 in Forest, did you find that there was any issues that 12 needed your attention or the attention -- the attention 13 of Chief Superintendent Coles? 14 A: I'm not sure I clearly understand 15 what you mean, Mr. Worme. 16 Q: Is there anything that you haven't 17 recorded that sticks out in your mind today that you can 18 tell us, that you would have learned in the course of 19 your attendance at the command post, in Forest? 20 A: There would have been a lot going on 21 and, of course, when we got to Grand Bend, there were 22 some things that had to be set up there. 23 To start going about what we were going to 24 try and do with respect to de-escalating the situation 25 and bringing some order.
1961 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: The command post has also been called 5 the executive command post; is that fair? 6 A: That's fair. What we clearly wanted 7 to establish was a -- a separation from where the 8 incident was being run and where the incident commanders 9 were to us and what we wanted to take on at our role, of 10 course, was dealing with general headquarters and those 11 areas that needed to know. 12 Q: All right. And do you recall having 13 a conversation with Mark Wright at approximately 4:00 in 14 the morning? 15 A: I -- I'm aware of it now. 16 Q: All right. Perhaps we can just play 17 that tape as well. And you'll find that, Mr. Parkin, at 18 Tab 11 of the audio brief. 19 20 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 [CP = Command Post] 23 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 24 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 25
1971 CP: Command Post. Peterman 2 ??: [static] ...I couldn't get through on 3 3705. 4 I'm going to transfer Superintendent 5 Parkin [inaudible] 6 CP: Okay. Go ahead. Hello. Hello? 7 AP: Hello. 8 CP: Yeah. Hold on a sec, okay? 9 AP: Yes, I will. thank you. 10 [brief pause] 11 MW: Superintendent? 12 AP: Yes. 13 MW: Hi, its Mark. 14 AP: Mark. How are you doing? 15 MW: Not bad. 16 AP: Are you on a - on a secure line or... ? 17 MW: Yup. No its - its not secure. Do we have 18 one that - isn't? 19 ??: 62 is not taped. 20 MW: Sixty-two. You'll have to call me back at 21 - what's - 786- 1262. 22 AP: 786-1262? 23 MW: Yeah. 24 AP: Is that line free now? 25 MW: Yeah, it is.
1981 AP: Okay. From Grand Bend - would that be just 2 a local call? 3 MW: Is Grand Bend to here long distance. I 4 think it is, isn't it? Yes its long 5 distance sir. 6 AP: Okay, Mark, I'll call you back. 7 MW: Okay. I'll sit right here on the phone. 8 AP: Okay. 9 MW: Okay bye. 10 End of conversation 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: All right. You were able to follow 14 that as well? You were able to follow that? 15 A: Yes. I heard that. 16 Q: Perhaps we can have that marked as 17 the next exhibit? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1061, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1061: Anthony Parkin audiotape 21 transcript, Parkin/Wright, 22 04:05 hours, Sept. 07/'95. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: And you're asking in there are you on
1991 a secure line and he tells you initially that it is and 2 then somebody says, "62 is not taped", and you're asked 3 to call back on 62? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Give -- you're given a number for 6 that. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And I take it you did call back? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: All right. Now, perhaps we can just 11 go ahead and play the next recording which you will find 12 at Tab 12; that is a further conversation. 13 Incidentally, just for our record, Mr. 14 Commissioner, the timestamp on that recording we have 15 just heard is 04:05 hours. And the next recording that I 16 want to take you to, Mr. Parkin, is September 7th at 17 04:07 hours, so approximately two (2) minutes later. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: All right. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 23 [CP = Command Post] 24 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 25 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright]
2001 2 MW: Command Post. Sergeant Wright. 3 AP: Sergeant Wright. 4 MW: Yeah, sir. [puffing] Sorry. 5 AP: Okay. We're back together. 6 MW: Yes. 7 AP: Listen - ummm. When you were talking to me 8 earlier... 9 MW: Yeah. 10 AP: About the shooting. 11 MW: Yep. 12 AP: Ah - we have to report this to the deputy's 13 office. 14 MW: Yeah. 15 16 Dispatcher(s) interference noises 17 18 AP: And I want to make sure we're sending as 19 accurate information as we - as we can. 20 MW: Okay. 21 AP: And we've got a couple of different versions. 22 MW: And I've got - I've been updated as well since 23 I talked to you. 24 AP: You've been updated as well. 25 MW: Yeah.
2011 AP: Is Dale Linton around? 2 MW: No. I don't- I don't know - I thought Dale 3 Linton was with you to be quite honest with 4 ya. 5 AP: No. 6 MW: So he's here? Last - I'm told - the last - 7 apparently he's here. I'm in the - up here, 8 he's down in detachment. I think - he might be 9 with SIU - I don't know. 10 AP: With SIU. 11 MW: Yeah. Johnny's in there too. And Bobby 12 Goodall's here too. May - yeah. 13 AP: What I want to know is - as accurately as 14 possible. Do you feel you have a good handle on 15 what took place there now? 16 MW: Yes, I think I do. And - but - and - I've got 17 the TRU team leader who was - 18 AP: [interrupting] Is Kent there? 19 MW: Yeah. He's right on the ground there. 20 AP: Okay. All right. 21 MW: But I - ahh - maybe I should turn him over to 22 you. But what I can tell you is, you know I 23 said we had that guy in custody and then he was 24 shot? 25 AP: Yes.
2021 MW: Well, apparently he wasn't shot. It appears 2 that - they - they - they appear to be 3 flashlight-inflicted wounds to the head. 4 AP: Uh-huh. 5 MW: Okay. So a blunt instrument to the head. Rather 6 than a round to the head. 7 AP: All right. So let's take it to the - just take 8 it back to the start here. 9 MW: Yeah. 10 AP: Ahh. The ERT teams were down there. 11 MW: Right. 12 AP: And they were down there as a result of there 13 being a previous incident with the car being 14 damaged. 15 MW: Right. 16 AP: That the councilor was in. 17 MW: Right. 18 AP: Is that correct? 19 MW: Correct. 20 AP: So that puts them down there. 21 MW: Yeah. 22 AP: And when they were down there, there was a 23 large group of - 24 MW: Yeah. 25 AP: ...First Nations.
2031 MW: Yup. 2 AP: ...And they came out of the Park. 3 MW: They were already out of the Park. 4 AP: They were already out of the Park when we 5 arrived? 6 MW: Yes. [emphasis] Yes. 7 AP: Okay. So, the plan was then to put them back 8 into the Park? 9 MW: That's right. 10 AP: So the ERT team moved in ... to do that? 11 MW: Right. Supported by TRU team because we had - 12 we were concerned about weapons in there. So 13 the TRU team was covering them. 14 AP: Okay. So the ERT team moved in. 15 MW: Yeah. 16 AP: ...moved the people back. 17 MW: Right. 18 AP: ...into the Park. 19 MW: Right. 20 AP: And they had cover - umm - provided by the TRU 21 team... 22 MW: Right. 23 AP: Because of the concern about weapons - 24 MW: That's right. Because we had heard automatic 25 gunfire the night before, as you're aware.
2041 AP: Okay. 2 MW: And when I talked to these guys about - ah - 3 three o'clock in the morning, the one guy 4 said,- you know, I was talking to him, "we 5 need to talk" etcetera etcetera he says "we'll 6 do our talking with guns". 7 AP: Right, okay. 8 MW: Okay? 9 AP: All right. So we've got the TRU team, they're 10 supporting them in case there is any weapons. 11 MW: Right. 12 AP: The ERT team move in to move them back. 13 MW: Right. 14 AP: With shields? 15 MW: Ah - yes. Some of them had shields. Yes. 16 AP: Oh. Some of them had shields. 17 MW: It's a full CMU they call it - Crowd Management 18 Unit. Two full teams together with a staff 19 sergeant in charge as per policy. 20 AP: Okay. A full Crowd Management team with a staff 21 sergeant in charge. 22 MW: Yeah. Lacroix. 23 AP: Okay. That was Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 24 MW: Yup. 25 AP: Okay. So they move in to push them back.
2051 MW: Yeah. 2 AP: Were they successful? 3 MW: They did. They moved them back to the - the 4 people moved back into the fence line. 5 AP: Okay. So they were successful in moving them 6 back into the fence line. 7 MW: That's right. 8 AP: And then... 9 MW: The... the... 10 AP: ...we started to retreat? 11 MW: Right.. They started to back up. 12 AP: Okay. We started to back up. The ERT team. 13 MW: Yeah, yeah. 14 AP: Then, the First Nations came off of the Park 15 again. 16 MW: Right. Right back out. 17 AP: Right back out. 18 MW: That's right. So the TRU - the ERT team moved 19 in again. 20 AP: The ERT team moved in again. 21 MW: And then they - no that's not right. What 22 happened was the- the First Nations came back. 23 Okay? 24 AP: Yeah. 25 MW: The ERT team was moving back.
2061 AP: Yeah. 2 MW: And then a TRU team guy said he thought one guy 3 had a rifle. So Lacroix had the - the - Crowd 4 Management Unit split, and go to one knee. 5 AP: Okay. So the TRU team guy,... 6 MW: Yeah. 7 AP: Thought that he - thought that one of the - 8 First... 9 MW: natives 10 AP: ...had a... 11 MW: Weapon. Long gun. 12 AP: ...So he communicated that to... 13 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. The C.M. - Wade Lacroix. 14 AP: Wade? 15 MW: ... The leader. Yeah. 16 AP: So Wade split the team. 17 MW: Split the team - and they all went down on one 18 knee. 19 AP: And they all went down on one knee. 20 MW: ...One knee. And the TRU team - uumm - 21 AP: The TRU team was still keeping observation. 22 MW: Yeah. They had the bead on them. They had two 23 - what they call Sierra teams on them, sniper 24 teams... 25 AP: Sniper teams
2071 MW: ...and a- and a reaction team, I forget what 2 they call that but ... 3 AP: Immediate reaction 4 MW: Yeah. 5 AP: Yeah. 6 MW: And ah - there was a few minutes like that. And 7 then it came from TRU that he did not 8 [emphasized] have a rifle. It was a - a - a 9 stick or a ... 10 AP: Okay, so then... 11 MW: ... a piece of wood of some sort. 12 AP: All right. So TRU - ahh- identified that in 13 fact the individual did not have a weapon... 14 MW: Yeah. 15 AP: ...it was a stick or something... 16 MW: That's right. 17 AP: All right. And then what happens? 18 MW: Then, that's - that's the second time that 19 they've come over, okay? 20 AP: Right. 21 MW: And again, before that, when they jumped over 22 the fence the first time, its quite clear on 23 the tape, and I recall this, you know, very 24 clearly, that Wade gets it from - Wade tells - 25 the Command Post, where John is, that they're
2081 back in the Park and the message comes back, do 2 not enter the Park. Take a defensive mode. And 3 that's what Wade - Waddie - gives to his 4 people. So there's no attempt whatsoever to go 5 into the Park. Okay? 6 AP: Yeah, yeah. That's fine... 7 MW: That's the first time. 8 AP: ...so we're just taking a defensive mode. 9 MW: Right. So then we move back and they come 10 across and then there's this thing about maybe 11 this guy's got a gun and he doesn't - and then 12 Waddie moves his people in to - to move them 13 back, and they engage. 14 AP: Okay. So, they're down on one knee... 15 MW: Yeah. 16 AP: ...and then its clear that the fella doesn't 17 have a gun... 18 MW: Right. 19 AP: ... so now they get back up in formation? 20 MW: Yeah 21 AP: So now they reform. 22 MW: Yeah. 23 AP: And now where do they go? 24 MW: And they - they engage - the First Nations 25 people.
2091 AP: Okay. So now they engage the First Nations 2 people. 3 MW: Yeah. 4 AP: All right. 5 MW: At a - in the public area. 6 AP: In the public area. 7 MW: Yeah. And they make an arrest. They effect an 8 arrest. And one ERT guy is assaulted with a 9 two-by-four over his back, during this. 10 AP: Okay. So what - during the arrest - 11 MW: Yeah 12 AP: ...one ERT member... 13 MW: Yeah 14 AP: ...is assaulted... 15 MW: [interrupting] ...with a two-by-four to the 16 back. 17 AP: With a two-by-four to the back. 18 MW: That's right. 19 AP: Okay. So they've got this individual under 20 arrest? 21 MW: Yeah. 22 AP: And they - 23 MW: Thy pull - and they're - pulling back. They're 24 all pulling back because all the rest of them 25 are back over on the ahh...
2101 AP: Was the arrest made because we were assaulted 2 with - by the...? 3 MW: I don't know, Sir. Its - you know. I couldn't 4 tell you that. Don't know. 5 AP: But that happened at the same time as the 6 arrest was being ... 7 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. Yeah. 8 AP: Okay. 9 MW: Like - like our position was to arrest them, 10 anybody we found in there, because there was - 11 they were committing the offense of mischief 12 with respect - that's pub - public property. 13 AP: Yes. 14 MW: And also, also possessions of weap - 15 possessions of weapons dangerous because of the 16 clubs and stuff they had in their hand. So 17 anybody we found in there, we were going to 18 arrest. 19 AP: Okay. 20 MW: Okay? 21 AP: Okay. So, they've got the guy under arrest. 22 MW: Yeah. And then they're back... 23 AP: While they were arresting him, one of our ERT 24 team members gets hit over the back... 25 MW: Yeah.
2111 AP: ...by a club. 2 MW: Yeah, yeah. 3 AP: And so, they're still withdrawing when this 4 guy...? 5 MW: [interrupting] Yeah, yeah, that's right. And 6 then all of a sudden - it hits the fan. 7 AP: So now, the bus comes driving...? 8 MW: through 9 AP: ...out of the Park. Through the fence? 10 MW: Yeah. Well no. There's a - they've got a large, 11 industrial garbage container... 12 AP: Yeah 13 MW: ...blocking a gateway... 14 AP: Right 15 MW: ...And the bus comes through, that. 16 AP: Okay. So the bus comes through - knocks an 17 industrial garbage container out of the way... 18 MW: Yeah. Into our guys. In the direction of our 19 guys. 20 AP: It knocks it towards our people. 21 MW: And the bus comes barreling at our people with 22 a car right behind it 23 AP: Okay. So the bus comes out, with the car behind 24 it. 25 MW: Right on.
2121 AP: All right. 2 MW: And ah, then the -the guys - our ERT team 3 starts to scatter, 'cause they're trying to get 4 away of this and from what I understand, some 5 of our guys are - receive minor injuries 'cause 6 they're knocked by the bus and/or the car. 7 AP: So, okay. When the bus comes out, its followed 8 by the car. Now, does the car get up beside the 9 bus? 10 MW: Don't know. 11 AP: Don't know. Okay. But they - but our ERT team 12 now starts to scatter because they're - 13 basically running for their safety? 14 MW: That's right! Yeah. 15 AP: To get out of the way. 16 MW: Yeah. 17 AP: All right. And then what happens? 18 MW: And ahh - ahh - I remember John telling 19 Bressette this, was that it actually was like 20 brushing our guys in - there's a bit of a bluff 21 there on one side - and the bus was pushing our 22 guys up against it, trying to push them into 23 that bluff. And he says they were being knocked 24 down like dominoes, he said. 25 AP: So some of our guys were knocked down by the
2131 bus? 2 MW: Yeah, yeah. 3 AP: Okay. 4 MW: Yeah. That's my understanding. And some 5 received minor injuries. 6 AP: Okay. 7 MW: And then there's - gunfire. Coming out of the 8 bus, and the car. 9 AP: Okay. Now there's gunfire. Coming out of the 10 bus and the car. 11 MW: That's right. 12 AP: Okay. 13 MW: And then, ahhh - we returned fire. 14 AP: And we returned fire. 15 MW: That's right. And then it gets real quiet. 16 AP: And then - things got quiet. 17 MW: Yeah. And then - the next thing I hear - I 18 don't know how the bus or the car got out of 19 there or whether they turned around. I don't 20 know how that - how they left the scene, but 21 ummm... 22 AP: You - you don't know where the bus went? 23 MW: I don't know where the bus - I don't know if it 24 stopped and turned around and went back - 25 AP: [interrupting] Is Skinner there?
2141 MW: He just left, but can you get - Skinner? He's 2 the - TRU Team Leader. 3 ??: [unknown female] Ken right? 4 MW: Yeah, Ken. And ummm- but anyways -they ahh - 5 the next thing I - I hear is that there's ummm 6 - Waddie comes over and he says that there's 7 been ummm - ummm - gunfire exchange - something 8 to that effect. And they need ambulances there. 9 AP: Okay. So Wade comes on the air saying that 10 there's been gunfire 11 MW: Yeah 12 AP: ... and that they need ambulances. 13 MW: That's right. 14 AP: Okay. 15 MW: And then ahh - Wade calls - umm - there's an 16 arrest van there and he tells his people to get 17 behind the arrest van, and he wants a count of 18 his people. So there's a count made of his 19 people, and everybody's accounted for. 20 AP: All right. Is Kent back there yet? 21 MW: No. 22 AP: 'kay. What I want to know, is after the gunfire 23 was exchanged - 24 MW: What'd they do? 25 AP: Yeah. Where'd the bus go? Where did the car
2151 go? 2 MW: Yeah, he's right here. 3 AP: Oh, okay. 4 MW: Ken- where - after the gunfire was exchanged, 5 do you know how the - how the bus, and the car, 6 like, where did they go? Did they turn around 7 and go into the Park? Or... (pause) He doesn't 8 know either. And ahh - we don't have - we 9 don't have anybody here that was down there do 10 we? There's nobody here that was down there. 11 ??: [inaudible] ... 'cause they're on the ground 12 still... 13 MW: Yeah. TRU team's still on the ground., so I 14 don't have that for ya. 15 ??: [inaudible] 16 MW: Yeah, 'cause the TRU team . Brian... Deevey's 17 TRU team's here, so they're going in, and 18 they're - his TRU team's coming out, but... 19 AP: Yeah, but the crunch we're in is... 20 MW: [interrupting] ...Is where did the bus and the 21 car go - right? 22 AP: Well yeah, that's part of it - Do you have the 23 names of the individuals -? 24 MW: That - fired? 25 AP: That - that were shot. We know that there's
2161 Dudley George... 2 MW: Yeah. 3 AP: Do we have the other names yet? 4 MW: Just a sec - I think - [pause - long sigh] I'm 5 busy right now, I can't help them. Ummm... 6 [long sigh] ...Jesus... okay, well I think - so 7 this doesn't turn into a cluster, I - you want 8 to know where the vehicles went, you want to 9 know who the peop - who the injured parties 10 were, ... 11 AP: Yeah 12 MW: Right? And I'm not going to give you a half- 13 assed answer, so I prefer to go - what else do 14 you want? 15 AP: Okay. We want to know where the vehicles went 16 after the shooting... 17 MW: Yeah, got it. 18 AP: ... Okay. Ahh... the names of the... 19 MW: [interrupting] Yeah 20 AP: ... victims... 21 MW: Yeah. 22 AP: ...How they got to hospital? 23 MW: [clears throat] 24 AP: Okay. Now earlier you had said to me, that we 25 had a guy in custody...
2171 MW: Yeah. 2 AP: ...and then, that puts Dudley - was he driving? 3 MW: I - I don't know if he was - I don't know if he 4 was driving, but he was shot in the ahhh- up in 5 the clavical area ... 6 AP: yeah 7 MW: Okay? So the guy said he must have been sitting 8 right in the car bec -you know... 9 AP: ...in the car 10 MW: Yeah. And pow! 11 AP: And somebody else is in the car. Are there 12 only... 13 MW: [interrupting] There's three people in the car, 14 plus him is my understanding. But I'll - I'll 15 confirm that, okay? 16 AP: Confirm that. Confirm who was in the car; 17 and... 18 MW: [interrupting] our numbers in the hospital 19 AP: ...in the hospital; who's dead. 20 MW: Yeah. 21 AP: The guy under arrest - where did he end up? 22 MW: He's - been transferred to London with injuries 23 to the head. 24 AP: He's been transferred to London... 25 MW: Yeah
2181 AP: ...with injuries to the head. 2 MW: Right. He's the flashlight or blunt instrument 3 guy. 4 AP: And we don't know how that was caused? 5 MW: Nope! 6 AP: Okay. Now, okay. Umm - all right. Get that 7 information for me. 8 MW: I will. 9 AP: As quickly as possible. 10 MW: 238 -2305 11 AP: [interrupting] And! I have another question. 12 MW: Yeah. 13 AP: Did Ovide Mercredi call you? 14 MW: Yup. 15 AP: Do you have the number for him? 16 MW: I think its still on the chalkboard - hang on 17 okay? I'll be right back, all right? 18 AP: Okay. 19 [Pause] 20 MW: Got it! Area code 613. 21 AP: Area code 613 22 MW: 830 23 AP: 830? 24 MW: 22 - 25 AP: 22.
2191 MW: 11 2 AP: 11. Excellent. Is that - you don't know 3 whether that's a home or a -? 4 MW: I have no idea. 5 AP: Well, when he called... 6 MW: Yeah 7 AP: How did he - did he ask for anybody in 8 particular? 9 MW: Well, he was given - he called the Comm Centre 10 I think... 11 AP: Called the Comm Centre - is that what he did? 12 MW: ... in Chatham ... 13 AP: in Chatham, yeah... 14 MW: ... is that what he did? Yeah, and they gave 15 him my name. 16 AP: And they gave him your name. So then when he 17 called and asked for you! 18 MW: Yup. 19 AP: And he - what did he ask you? 20 MW: Well, he identified himself... 21 AP: Yup. 22 MW: ...And he said - and he said who I am and I 23 said I know who you are! [laughs] 24 AP: Yup. 25 MW: And he says I received a call from Tom
2201 Bressette's wife. 2 AP: He received a call from Tom Bressette's wife. 3 MW: Yeah. Earlier that evening about the situation 4 down at Ipperwash Provincial Park. 5 AP: Okay, earlier in the evening about the 6 situation in Ipperwash, yeah. 7 MW: Yeah. And his information was that - ahhh - we 8 - umm- you know- that there were some people 9 out on the public area and that we were going 10 to move them back. 11 AP: What- what was the end result? 12 MW: What was the end result? 13 AP: Yeah. 14 MW: He wanted to know whether we were going to put 15 them into the - we were going into the Park - 16 that night. 17 AP: He wanted to know whether we were going to go 18 into the Park. And... 19 MW: And I told him that I wasn't in a position to 20 answer his questions ... 21 AP: 'kay. 22 MW: ...and that I would get a hold of my commanding 23 officer and that he would return his call and 24 we never did. 25 AP: Okay. All right. Well that was a good answer.
2211 MW: Yeah. That's what I thought too. [ laughs] I 2 asked him who he represented - like was he - 3 was he now calling on their behalf or was he 4 asked to be their representative and he said no 5 I'm just calling as the Grand Chief, and my 6 concern is for all First Nation's people. So, 7 okay, so as far as I was concerned you know 8 he... 9 AP: [interrupting] All right. Get onto that other 10 [inaudible] 11 MW: [interrupting] Yup. 12 AP: We need the names... 13 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. A.S.A.P. 14 AP: Yeah, because... 15 MW: [interrupting] Yeah, I know. You got to get it 16 on. 17 AP: ...call... 18 MW: Right on! 19 AP: No, I meant... 20 MW: [interrupting] 238-2345. Right? 21 AP: Yeah. Grand Bend detachment. 22 MW: Yup. I'll get on it- I'm working on it right 23 now. 24 AP: Thank you. 25 MW: Okay sir.
2221 AP: Bye. 2 MW: Bye. 3 End of conversation 4 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps I could have 6 that marked as the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1062, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1062: Anthony Parkin audiotape 10 transcript, Parkin/Wright, 11 04:07 hours, Sept. 07/'95. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: That's the transcript of the phone 15 call between yourself, Mr. Parkin, and Mark Wright of 16 September 7th at 04:07 hours. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: All right. And you'll probably 19 notice that in the last several of the -- of the audios 20 that we played, it repeated the first couple of sentences 21 I think. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I just wanted to make that note for 24 the record, Commissioner. 25 I take it then that this is the phone call
2231 that you would have placed back on, what was described to 2 you on the previous phone call, as line 62? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And it was reported to you that that 5 was a secure line, that is to say that it was not taped 6 as far as you knew? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: All right. When you go down to the - 9 - to the middle of the page, Mr. Parkin, you're talking 10 about having to get something out that is information as 11 to what happened and you want to send as accurate of 12 information as you can. 13 Do you see where I'm at there? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: We're right on -- on the first page, 16 the bottom of the first page. And you say: 17 "And we've got a couple of different 18 versions." 19 And I'm just wondering if you can tell us 20 what -- what versions at that point in time that you 21 might have been referring to? 22 A: I can't specifically recall what two 23 (2) versions -- there may have been three (3) or four (4) 24 that information, as I'm sure you can appreciate was 25 coming fast and furious and they were still trying to
2241 pull things together. 2 Q: Absolutely. And indeed Mark Wright, 3 you'll see in his very next response to you, indicates 4 that he has been updated as well since he had talked to 5 you. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: In fact one of the -- pardon me, one 8 of the things that he was updated on was the person that 9 was in custody, and he talks about that to you at page 2 10 of the transcript, towards the middle of the -- the page. 11 And he informs you that the person wasn't 12 shot but rather had what he described as flashlight 13 inflicted wounds to the head, what appeared to him to be. 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Or appears to be; whether or not he'd 16 seen them actually but that was the report that he passed 17 along. 18 A: Those were his words, yes. 19 Q: And then clarifies that just a bit 20 later; a blunt instrument rather than a gunshot wound. 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And if you turn to the top of the 23 next page at page 3 of 18, you were asking that the ER 24 team -- ERT teams were down there. He says, "right". 25 And at the top of the page you say:
2251 "And they were going down there as a 2 result of there being a previous 3 incident with the car being damaged." 4 Right? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. So you knew at -- and 7 then he says, "right", and you say, "that the councillor 8 was in". 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: So obviously at that point, you knew 11 it wasn't a woman who was involved in that earlier 12 altercation and you now that it was a councillor. 13 A: Yes, sir. I'd been updated somewhere 14 along. 15 Q: Thank you for that. And he reports 16 to you that they were our of the Park and that they were 17 successful in moving the people back into the Park. 18 I think that's the gist of the -- the 19 information being passed along. 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: If you turn to page 6 of 18, he's 22 continuing with his account or his narrative of what had 23 occurred. 24 All right. He initially reports to you as 25 I've just indicated that the ERT had pushed the people
2261 back to the fence line, they were beginning to back up. 2 Can you see where -- where he says: 3 "And they were moving in again." 4 And then he corrects himself and he goes 5 on to say: 6 "The TRU team guy thought one (1) guy 7 had a rifle so Lacroix had the crowd 8 management unit split, go to one 9 knee." 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: All right. And I take it you found 12 out, subsequently, that that wasn't quite the chronology? 13 Or was that ever corrected for you, Mr. 14 Parkin? 15 A: It very well may have been, I'm not 16 sure exactly when. 17 Q: And at page 8 of 18, he completes his 18 narrative of where Waddie, as he describes him, moves his 19 people back into formation, okay? Do you see that? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And then they make an arrest towards 22 the bottom of the page and he reports to you that: 23 "One (1) ERT guy is assaulted with a 24 two (2) by four (4) over his back." 25 Do you see that?
2271 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And do you know whether that 3 information had ever been confirmed for you, or denied to 4 you? 5 A: I believe that some time later, if 6 I'm not mistaken, the ERT guy turns out to be Wade 7 Lacroix. 8 Q: And he certainly described being -- 9 being assaulted in some fashion with -- with an 10 instrument. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: All right. If you can turn to page 13 9, and Mark Wright is reporting to you: 14 "Like -- like our position was to 15 arrest them and anybody we found in 16 there because there was -- they were 17 committing the offence of mischief 18 with respect, that's pub -- public 19 property." 20 Do you see that? 21 A: I do, sir. 22 Q: And just beyond that, you say: 23 "Yes." 24 And he says: 25 "And also -- also possession of weap -
2281 - possessions of weapons dangerous 2 because of the clubs and stuff they 3 had in their hands. So anybody we 4 found in there, we were going to 5 arrest." 6 And how did you take that when he was 7 describing, "anybody we found in there," or -- and again, 8 he repeats it in the second line, "Anybody -- anybody we 9 found in there we were going to arrest." 10 A: The extension of Army Camp Road, 11 there's a sandy area that leads down to the water, 12 outside of the -- outside of the fence. 13 Q: Okay. And that's how you took that? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: All right. The last place I want to 16 take you to in this group of materials, Mr. Parkin, is at 17 page 13. 18 So he's completing, that is Mark Wright, 19 is completing his narrative of the event to you as he 20 understood it. Talks about the exchange of gunfire, 21 okay? 22 "There was nobody there that was on 23 the ground." 24 That is where he was so that he could get 25 a better first hand report on what occurred.
2291 A: Correct, sir. 2 Q: Yes. And then he says: 3 "Yeah, 'cause the TRU team, Brian 4 Deevey's TRU team here, so they're 5 going to go in and they're -- his TRU 6 team's coming out, but -- [and your 7 comment] 8 Yeah, but the crunch we're in is -- 9 [and Mark Wright says] 10 Is where did the bus and car go, 11 right? [And you say] 12 Well, yeah, that's part of it." 13 And you go on to ask the question: 14 "Do we have the means or the 15 individuals?" 16 And I'm just interested, if you can tell 17 us, what the crunch was that you were in? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I would believe just the crunch of 22 trying to get accurate information. 23 Q: Right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2301 Q: Sorry. We also have audio 2 transcription of you trying to get a hold of Mark Wright 3 or Dale Linton and subsequently you were put on hold. We 4 don't have a transcript of that, but it turns out you 5 didn't actually get a hold of either of those 6 individuals. 7 Do you have any recollection of that 8 occurring? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: The next transcript we have, Mr. 11 Parkin, you will find at Tab 14. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: First of all I should maybe ask you, 16 do you have a recall of a conversation with Mark Wright 17 at 04:31 hours, quite independent of the transcript? 18 A: No. I know I was on the phone quite 19 a bit that morning but specifically who I called each 20 time, no. 21 Q: Thank you. Perhaps we'll just go 22 ahead and play that tape then. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 25
2311 [GH = Sergeant Gary Hamilton, Grand Bend Police] 2 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 3 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 4 5 GH: Provincial Police Grand Bend. Sergeant Hamilto 6 n. 7 MW: Hi Gary. It's Mark. 8 GH: Yeah Mark. 9 MW: Can I speak to Superintendent Parkin please? 10 GH: O-kay... 11 MW: Big tall thin guy... 12 GH: Huh? 13 MW: Big tall guy. 14 GH: Oh, I know Tony. Known him a long - Okay, he'll 15 be at 42-20. Hold on here. 16 MW: Won't Charlie be surprised when he walks into 17 Grand Bend? 18 AP: Superintendent Parkin. 19 MW: Hi sir, its Mark. 20 AP: Yeah! 21 MW: Got those answers for ya. 22 AP: Great! 23 MW: Okay. Ready? 24 AP: Yes I am. 25 MW: Vehicles, how'd they get - where they go after
2321 the shooting? 2 AP: Mmhmm? 3 MW: They went back into the Park. 4 AP: Okay. 5 MW: Okay. Dead, is Anthony O'Brien George. 6 AP: Okay. Dead. 7 MW: Yes. 8 AP: Anthony. 9 MW: Yeah. O'Brien. 10 AP: O'Brien. 11 MW: Yeah. George. 12 AP: Ahh - that's not Dudley George? 13 MW: Yes it is. 14 AP: Oh, it is? 15 MW: Yep. 16 AP: Oh, so "Dudley''s his nickname? 17 MW: Yup. 18 AP: Okay. 19 MW: Okay, in serious condition is Bernard Cecil 20 George. 21 AP: Bernard Cecil George. 22 MW: Being transferred to London hospital. I don't 23 know which one. 24 AP: Transferred to... 25 MW: [interrupting] Being transferred I would say
2331 would be accurate because when our guys left, 2 that was the information they got but he hadn't 3 actually been put in anything and taken away 4 when they left so - 5 AP: And he's serious? 6 MW: Serious. Would be accurate. 7 AP: Yup. 8 MW: The other guy is Nicholas Cottrelle. And ah - 9 I'm - he's described to me as ahh - like a 10 grazed - ahh - bullet to the lower back. Looks 11 like its grazed - both sides of his back. I 12 mean, on either side of his spine you know? 13 AP: Yeah. 14 MW: But he's going to be just fine. Right Dewey?- 15 Yup. He's going to be just fine. 16 AP: Okay. Good. Do we have ages? 17 MW: Do we have ages? No. 18 AP: Okay. 19 MW: Not at this time. They're all adults. We can 20 tell - to say that, right, Nicholas? No? 21 Dew: No. Cottrelle is a - is a young offender. 22 MW: Cottrelle is a young offender. 23 AP: Y.O. eh? 24 MW: Young person. 25 AP: Okay. Ummm- all right. So...
2341 MW: 'kay... 2 AP: The vehicles leave. Now - 3 MW: I've got some more information if you want it. 4 AP: Okay. Go ahead. 5 MW: Okay. Nicholas Cottrelle got to the hospital 6 via Forest District Ambulance. 7 AP: Okay. 8 MW: Bernard George got there via St. John's 9 ambulance. 10 AP: Yeah. 11 MW: And Anth - Dudley - got there by a white car. 12 AP: White car. 13 MW: Yeah, now. At the - in the white car when it 14 showed up at Strathroy Hospital, there were 15 four people in it. 16 AP: Yeah. 17 MW: Dudley. A guy by the name of J.G., he's a Y.O. 18 - fourteen years. 19 AP: Yeah. 20 MW: And Kenny - and - sorry - Perry and Caroline 21 George, who are brother and sister of Dudley. 22 AP: [whispered] Oh, Jesus. [long sigh] Yeah. 23 MW: Now J.G., age fourteen, is charged with 24 mischief - 25 ??: Arrested.
2351 MW: Arrested for mischief - pardon me. 2 AP: Yeah. 3 MW: And the other two are under arrest for attempt 4 murder. 5 AP: Do they think that they were in the car when 6 the shooting took place? 7 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. But don't hold your breath 8 for those charges ever sticking. 9 AP: Okay 10 MW: ...but that's the word hanging round. 11 AP: You got the vehicle. 12 MW: We got the vehicle. 13 AP: Okay. Ahhh - All right. Now - so who - 14 MW: Who? 15 AP: ...was the individual that's being transferred 16 to London with the head trauma? 17 MW: Bernard Cecil George. 18 AP: Okay. So he was - he was not in the vehicle. He 19 was - ours. 20 MW: He was ours. Yeah. He's got injury to his head 21 consistent with blunt instrument. That's not 22 from a doctor, that's from my detective that 23 was down there. Right Dewey? 24 Dew: That's right. 25 MW: Yeah. Front and back.
2361 AP: [inaudible]... on the bus? 2 MW: Well. Maybe the bus, maybe while he was under - 3 being placed under arrest - who knows. 4 AP: Okay. All right. So then - our officers would 5 have loaded him into the St. John's ambulance? 6 MW: Yeah. 7 AP: Okay. Nicholas Cottrelle. He goes in Forest 8 ambulance. 9 MW: Yeah. And George disappears. 10 AP: [interrupting] But he left the scene in the 11 vehicle with Anthony George. 12 MW: Well we don't know - well - one - one - well 13 Cottrelle could have been in the bus too. 14 'Cause he was shot - but he could have been in 15 the bus too. Like I don't know who they're 16 trying - 17 ??: [interrupting] He may have been in the bus. 18 Yeah. [may be Mark Dew] 19 [Dew?]: The story I overheard... 20 MW: Hang on a sec. 21 [Dew?]: The story I overhead was he was standing beside 22 the car, when he was shot - and then he sat 23 down on the passenger side of the car but you 24 know that's... 25 ??: So the car stopped?
2371 ??: ...bullshit... 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: I just ask that that tape be stopped 5 there, Mr. Parkin, because you can hear that there's a 6 voice interrupting in the background. You'll hear that 7 Mark Wright had stopped and somebody else is talking. It 8 may have been in the bus. 9 Do you have any idea who that voice might be? 10 Do you recognize that voice? 11 A: I don't recognize the voice, no, sir. 12 Q: All right. Perhaps we can just carry on. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 15 16 MW: Yeah, I - He could have been - he could have 17 been in the car. Unknown if he was in the car 18 or in the bus. I think that's the most accurate 19 description. 20 AP: Okay - Nicholas Cottrelle? 21 MW: Yeah. 22 AP: Okay. All right. 23 MW: Yeah. I have Inspector Carson here. 24 AP: Yeah. 25 ??: You had!
2381 MW: I- [laughs] I had? Shit! He's made a liar out 2 of me again. He's busy bebopping around here. 3 ... but do you want me to go track him down? It 4 won't be hard and you can go over this again 5 with him because he was at the TOC - as the 6 Incident Command and so he - 7 AP: What - what - what time did it take place? 8 MW: Around elevenish is what we can best figure. 9 AP: Best - or - best you can figure is around 10 eleven? 11 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. Around eleven o'clock. 12 AP: Okay. Oh yeah, it was totally dark in there? 13 MW: Yeah. 14 AP: Any overhead lighting in there? 15 MW: Where? 16 AP: Where - where that Park ground... 17 MW: [interrupting] No! No overhead lighting. Not in 18 that place. Not that I recall sir. 19 AP: Okay. Very dark. 20 MW: Yeah. 21 AP: Okay. So it took place around eleven o'clock. 22 MW: Yeah. 23 AP: All right. - ahh - no, I don't - we'll leave it 24 at that for now. If you get an opportunity to 25 talk to John about it - If there's something
2391 really different from - that he - about how it 2 took place, get back to me, other than that, I 3 don't want to keep bugging you with this stuff. 4 MW: Okay. 5 AP: Okay? 6 MW: Okay Boss. 7 AP: All right. 8 MW: Okay. We'll be here! 9 AP: Yeah. Okay. 10 MW: I - I don't know how much longer I'll be here, 11 'cause I got to get ready - I got to get ready 12 for court. 13 AP: Yeah. 14 MW: But ahh - Andre Clelland is taking my place up 15 here. 16 AP: Andre? 17 MW: Clelland. C-L-E-L-L-A-N-D. 18 AP: C-L-E- L-L-A-N-D? 19 MW: Yeah. 20 AP: And he's a sergeant? 21 MW: No. He's a Detective-Constable. 22 AP: A Detective Constable. Okay. 23 MW: Okay? 24 AP: Yup! 25 MW: So be gentle.
2401 AP: Okay. 2 MW: Okay? [laughs] 3 AP: Thanks. 4 MW: Bye. 5 6 End of Conversation 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: All right. You were able to follow 10 that transcript, Mr. Parkin? 11 A: Yes, I was, sir. 12 Q: Perhaps I can ask that that be made 13 the next exhibit then please? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1063, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1063: Anthony Parkin audiotape 17 transcript, Parkin/Wright, 18 04:31 hours, Sept. 07/'95. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: I just have very few questions with 22 respect to this particular transcript, Mr. Parkin, and 23 the first one is at page 8. You are being advised by 24 Mark Wright of the arrest of three (3) individuals at the 25 Strathroy Hospital. Page 4 of -- of 8?
2411 A: Page 4? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: All right. And he describes them to 5 you, it's Perry and Caroline George, brother and -- and 6 sister of Dudley? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And J.G. age 14? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: He advises you that J.G. has been 11 arrested for mischief? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And the other two (2) are arrested 14 for attempt murder? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: You ask the question, do you think 17 they were in the car and Mark Wright tells you: 18 "Yeah, but don't hold your breath that 19 those charges ever sticking." 20 How was that taken by you? What did that 21 mean, as far as you were concerned? 22 A: He was expressing his opinion, I 23 would take it. It's not unusual for the police to 24 initially lay some charges that at the end of the day are 25 either reduced or changed.
2421 Q: Okay. And it wasn't your position at 2 that point to question any of that? That was just 3 information he was relaying along to you? 4 A: I didn't have the depth of knowledge 5 to do that. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. The next 7 recording that we have, and we have a transcript of that 8 at page -- at Tab 15 of the audio brief in front of you, 9 Mr. Parkin. 10 And it's a transcript of a call between 11 yourself and Inspector Linton. It's time stamped at 12 06:05 hours, September the 7th, 1995. Perhaps we can 13 just go ahead and play that one. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 16 17 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 18 [CP = Command Post - Elaine] 19 [DL = Inspector Dale Linton] 20 21 DL: Yeah, Elaine. Is Chief Superintendent Coles 22 there please? 23 CP: Yes, just a moment please. 24 [Pause - ringing - background noises] 25 AP: Superintendent Parkin.
2431 DL: Yeah Tony, its Dale. Ah - 2 AP: How are you? 3 DL: Uh, I'm all right. 4 AP: How're you holding up? 5 DL: Well, not bad. John's gone to catch a few 6 winks. 7 AP: Yeah, I got Jim Gordon on the way. 8 DL: Okay. 9 AP: So I... 10 DL: Umm - 11 AP: ...He should be there to - probably in an hour 12 and a half or two. 13 DL: Good. Umm - The Chief had asked me to get a 14 hold of Tom Bressette, which I just managed to 15 do... 16 AP: Mmhmm. 17 DL: ...And I guess there were some rumours 18 abounding that we'd shot somebody else, down on 19 the Base. But I told him that's completely 20 without substance. And the other thing he'd 21 heard was we were gonna march on the fire 22 situation on Twenty-One Highway at County Road 23 Seven and I said no that's - we roadblocked 24 around it obviously and there's no plan of 25 action to ah- you know, to challenge anybody.
2441 And he said he appreciated that. You know he's 2 - he's down there now at Twenty-One and Seven, 3 and he said tensions are really high because 4 the stories they've been told about how this 5 shooting took place there. He didn't say what 6 it was but he said much different than what he 7 believes happened. So I said well you know, the 8 people ran the gate and tried to run over our 9 people, and fired shots. He said well that's 10 not the story that's going around here. And I 11 said well, you know, that's unfortunate, but 12 that's - that's what happened. And ah - so he 13 said he's trying to - he said I can't take a 14 side because he said if I -you know if I say 15 you know you guys screwed up he said they'd 16 lynch me right here on the road. So he said all 17 I'm doing is saying here's what happens when we 18 play hardball, you know - people are killed and 19 injured - let's negotiate. He said he thinks 20 he's making some progress and they're now 21 talking about maybe Mercredi coming in and... 22 AP: Yeah. Actually the chief was just talking to 23 Mercredi. He's going to be - he's supposed to 24 be calling Bressette at seven o'clock. 25 DL: Yeah, so ah - you know but Tom keeps saying its
2451 really hot and you know they're volatile but 2 he's just trying to tell 'em you know here's 3 what violence got us and let's negotiate so he 4 ah - I guess he's cautiously optimistic. And I 5 said if you've got any concerns, you're hearing 6 rumours that are heightening tensions, for 7 God's sake call me and you know we can dispel 8 that stuff 'cause all we want to do is - is 9 negotiate this thing and get it - get it sorted 10 out. We don't want to attack anybody. So he was 11 - he was okay with that. I hear from Johnny 12 Carson was just telling me that Ed Isaac is 13 stirring things up down in Walpole now. 14 AP: Well, yeah. Apparently that's the word. That's 15 he's trying to get some warriors to head up 16 there. 17 DL: Oh well we're pretty -well he's been up there a 18 lot too eh. 19 AP: Mmhmm. 20 DL: He's been seen up there a lot. He's the asshole 21 that was leading the revolution down there 22 against the chief and counsel. 23 AP: That's right, that's right. 24 DL: But I know Joey Gilbert pretty well and I've 25 been working with Joe Johnson, the chair of the
2461 civil authority, just you know... 2 AP: Yup 3 DL: ...all along, so I think we can - In fact I'll 4 probably give Joey a call - well, maybe I'll 5 call him right now. And just ah - ask for his 6 support in keeping the community calm. 7 AP: What's your - what's your spin on the shooting 8 incident? 9 DL: Well - 10 AP: (interrupting) How did it take place to your 11 knowledge? 12 DL: Okay. The ah - there was those eight or ten 13 guys on the road that had damaged the car. And 14 they were - 15 AP: Yeah 16 DL: ...around the houses... 17 AP: Yeah. 18 DL: ...and blocking traffic so our TRU guys were - 19 ah - and the ERT guys challenged them with the 20 intent of forcing them back into the Park. 21 AP: Right. 22 DL: And that in fact did happen. 23 AP: Right. 24 DL: And shortly after they got back in the Park, 25 they got the school bus, and another vehicle,
2471 and they rammed through their own fence - they 2 barricaded their fence as you go down the hill. 3 And at that time we had a large number of ERT 4 and TRU people there. And they drove through 5 the fence, and drove right at our people. 6 AP: Mmhmm. 7 DL: Like tried to run them over, no doubt about it. 8 AP: Yup. 9 DL: And somebody fired a long gun out of the - out 10 of the bus. 11 AP: Mmhmm. 12 DL: And they - a car came out behind the bus and 13 also tried to ram our guys. And everybody says 14 they don't know how somebody didn't get killed. 15 And a guy with a handgun was shooting at our 16 people from the car. 17 AP: Right. 18 DL: And of course, ah - three TRU members and four 19 ERT members returned fire and ah - then they 20 retreated back into the camp. We had no idea - 21 we -we - we called our people to ground, did 22 the head count. As far as we knew everybody's 23 accounted for, nobody hit. We're checking the 24 bus now. Of course then we don't know what 25 happened inside but 9-1-1 call comes in saying
2481 you know - there's a guy at the hospital with a 2 gunshot wound, and it unfolded from there. So. 3 But there's no question that - we're looking at 4 attempt murder, trying to run over our guys, 5 shooting at them, ah. 6 AP: Okay. Ah - just one question. Were you aware 7 when that took place, whether or not we had 8 anybody under arrest? 9 DL: We arrested a person before that. 10 AP: Yeah. 11 DL: Yeah. 12 AP: And we still had custody of him when it all 13 took place? 14 DL: Yeah. 15 AP: All right. That's good. 16 DL: Now - I - what about that - meeting with 17 Beaubien and Thomas? 18 AP: Yeah. We can get that set up later today. 19 DL: Okay. 20 AP: [inaudible] 21 DL: (interrupting) Okay, okay Wade's in no 22 condition to do it. 23 AP: Yeah. 24 DL: Or probably even be there. He's rattled. 25 AP: Yeah. No that's fine.
2491 DL: And so I'll - I'll try to set it up. 2 AP: Okay. 3 DL: And the other thing was the synopsis. I'll fax 4 that to Grand Bend then? Are you going to be in 5 Grand Bend or are you going to go back to your 6 office? 7 AP: Ah - I'm in Grand Bend. 8 DL: So that's where I should fax that. 9 AP: Yeah. 10 DL: Okay. 11 AP: Please. What time would you be doing that? 12 DL: Well, my scribe is handwriting that feverishly. 13 If you want it handwritten, I can probably send 14 it off by seven o'clock. 15 AP: That's fine. 16 DL: If you want it typed, we can do that in a half 17 hour. 18 AP: No, that's fine. 19 DL: Okay. 20 AP: As long as its legible. 21 DL: Yeah. 22 AP: Okay. 23 DL: Okay. 24 AP: Thank you. 25
2501 End of conversation 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: And you were able to follow that 5 transcript, Mr. Parkin? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: All right. If I could ask that that 8 be marked as the next exhibit please, Commissioner. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1064, Your Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1064: Anthony Parkin audiotape 13 transcript, Parkin/Linton, 14 06:05 hours, Sept.07/'95. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: Just a couple of questions that arise 18 out of this transcript, Mr. Parkin. If you look at page 19 1 right after Mr. -- Inspector Linton tells you that 20 John's gone to catch a few winks, you say: 21 "I got Jim Gordon on the way." 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: As I understand it Inspector Gordon 24 would take over as Incident Commander? 25 A: Well, as one of the Incident
2511 Commanders, yes. 2 Q: As one of the Incident Commanders and 3 the other one would be...? 4 A: I believe we ended up giving a number 5 -- Inspector Jerry Thompson was brought down from Barrie. 6 Inspector Rick Turnbull was brought over from Belleville 7 and Inspector Bob Pilon was brought up from Burlington. 8 Q: All right. But in the immediate Jim 9 Gordon would be the one that would -- that would be first 10 to -- to arrive? 11 A: He was -- 12 Q: Sorry. 13 A: He was the closest, yes, sir. 14 Q: All right. Thank you. You ask for 15 Inspector Linton's take on things if I can put it that 16 way, at page 3, at the top of page 3. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: See when you -- when you ask: 19 "What's your -- what's your spin on 20 the shooting incident? 21 How did it take place to your 22 knowledge." 23 You see that? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And he starts out by -- in terms of
2521 his narrative as to what his spin is, that is how it took 2 place that there were eight (8) or ten (10) guys on the 3 road that had damaged the car. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: So it would seem, at least according 6 to Inspector Linton, that that event, the attack on the 7 vehicle, was a pretty significant event in terms of 8 getting this sequence of events rolling in the direction 9 that it became. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And not only were these eight (8) or 12 ten (10) guys that damaged the car, but apparently, 13 according to the information that was being passed along 14 too, they were also around the houses? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And blocking traffic. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And therefore that -- and so our TRU 19 guys, as he then tells you, and the ERT guys, challenged 20 them with the intent of forcing them back into the Park? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: All right. And he continues on, of 23 course, and I don't mean to -- I don't mean to cut you 24 off, but at least that's where his narrative begins with 25 you, insofar as what triggered these events?
2531 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: If you go to the next page at page 4 3 of 5, he -- he's asking you now, What about the meeting 4 with Beaubien and Thomas, and I take that to be MPP 5 Marcel Beaubien? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And the Mayor, Fred Thomas? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And he reports to you 10 that Wade is in no condition to do it, and that is, I 11 take it, participate in the meeting? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I don't know if that's the case or 16 the setting up of the meeting. 17 Q: All right. But he says: 18 "Wade's in no condition to do it, or 19 probably even be there." 20 He tells you. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. And he's referring, of
2541 course, to Wade Lacroix who was the -- the team leader of 2 CMU? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: All right. Thank you. Just on the 5 last -- the last issue on the last page, pardon me, the 6 last question on the last page, page 5, that is. 7 Inspector Linton tells you, at the top of 8 that page: 9 "And the other thing was the synopsis. 10 I'll fax that to Grand Bend then." 11 What was he talking about? He was talking 12 about a synopsis; is this the synopsis of the events that 13 he's just recited for you? 14 A: Yes, I would take it to be that; a 15 collection of the current or the most current information 16 that he had at the time. 17 Q: All right. And do you recall ever 18 receiving such a synopsis by fax at the Grand Bend office 19 where you told him you were? 20 A: I can't say I recall. I would have 21 expected him to have done it. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. And the purpose 23 for that synopsis would be simply to get the most up to 24 date information in your hands? Was that the idea, or 25 was there some other purpose to that?
2551 A: Well, that's correct. It would be so 2 then I could -- first of all the Chief and I would have 3 the latest information and then we would be able to keep 4 General Headquarters and Commission Officer -- the 5 Commissioner's office apprised. 6 Q: From the executive command post that 7 you had established at Grand Bend? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: All right. The next audio recording 10 we have, you'll find a transcript of that at Tab 16, and 11 it's a trans... 12 You'll find that at Tab 16. It's a 13 transcript of a call between yourself, Mr. Parkin, and 14 Rose Peterman and it's time stamped at 06:20 hours, 15 September the 7th, 1995. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. Perhaps we can just go 18 ahead and play that. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 [AP - Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 23 [RP - Rose Peterman, Command Post] 24 25 RP: Command Post, Peterman.
2561 AP: Yes, Superintendent Parkin. How are you? 2 RP: Just fine. How are you? 3 AP: Oh, not too bad. Is inspector Linton 4 there? 5 RP: Ummm. As a matter of fact he's right - 6 ohhh. Yes. He's right over here. Can 7 you hold on a moment? 8 AP: Is he free? 9 RP: Umm, well, he's just talkin' to the guys. 10 AP: Ummm. I'll tell you what the situation 11 is. I'm in Grand Bend. 12 RP: Un huh. 13 AP: Okay and what's happening now is we're 14 getting a number of phone calls over here 15 of people wanting to know whether or not 16 they can go out on the roads or whatnot. 17 RP: Mmhmm. 18 AP: Do we have ah - somebody that we could 19 refer those call to be able to tell them 20 which roads are blocked off. 21 RP: Umm. Well, they might want to refer them 22 over to umm - Sergeant Babbit over at the 23 media - ah number. 24 AP: Is he aware of the road closures? 25 RP: Yeah. Yeah. Because we gave it out to
2571 umm - to ah - the media as well. 2 AP: You did, eh? 3 RP: Yeah. 4 AP: Okay. What the number there then? 5 RP: 2-4-3- 6 AP: 2-4-3 7 RP: 3-4-9-1. 8 AP: 3-4-9-1. 9 RP: Now, if he's been flooded with media calls 10 he might not ah - want to deal with it but 11 umm - if he doesn't that's fine. Just 12 refer them back here. 13 AP: Well. You're in the Command Post, eh? 14 RP: Yeah. 15 AP: You really don't need those calls in 16 there. So I'll just five them that 17 number. And we'll refer the calls to 18 them. 19 RP: Okay. 20 AP: Okay? 21 RP: Okay. Sounds good. 22 AP: Than you very much. 23 RP: All right. Bye bye. 24 25 End of Conversation
2581 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: And you were able to follow that as 3 well? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: If we could have that marked then as 6 the next exhibit please, Commissioner? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1065, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1065: Anthony Parkin audiotape 10 transcript, Parkin/Peterman" 11 06:20 hours, sept 07/'95. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: So you're just talking about a number 15 of calls that -- that would have been received regarding 16 which roads are blocked off. The -- the advice at the 17 end of the day is that this would go on to be dealt with 18 by Sergeant Babbitt? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Okay. And a media -- a media release 21 has already gone out insofar as the road closure 22 information; is that -- is that correct? 23 A: That's what she informed me, yes. 24 Q: All right. Commissioner, I have two 25 (2) more tapes to play and actually just three (3) more
2591 issues. I wonder if this might be a good spot to take an 2 afternoon break? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 We'll take our afternoon break now. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 6 for fifteen (15) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 2:45 p.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 3:05 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Mr. Parkin, I wanted to direct you 19 next to the transcript at Tab 17 of the audio brief in 20 front of you. It's a transcript of a telephone call 21 between yourself and Inspector Linton. It's time stamped 22 07:32 hours, September 7th, 1995? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Perhaps we can just go ahead and play 25 that one?
2601 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 4 [CP = Command Post, Archibald ???] 5 [DL = Inspector Dale Linton] 6 7 AP: Its ah - Superintendent Parkin calling, 8 how are you? 9 CP: Very good sir! Yourself? 10 AP: Ahh, not too bad. Listen, we're over at 11 Grand Bend. 12 CP: Yes sir. 13 AP: Ah - when I was over there earlier this 14 morning, I saw a copy of a press release. 15 CP: Ah huh? 16 AP: Ah - would you have a copy there? That - 17 could you fax a copy to us at Grand Bend? 18 CP: Okay. 19 AP: Have you seen that yourself? 20 CP: I personally haven't seen it. Ummm - what 21 I can do is attempt to track down Sergeant 22 Babbitt. He would have been the one that 23 sent it out. 24 AP: Yeah. I know that when I was over there 25 like I said I saw one in Forest Detachment
2611 CP: Okay 2 AP: One of the officers walking around had it 3 in his hand. 4 JC: Okay. I'll track it down and have them fax 5 it. 6 AP: That would be appreciated. And the other 7 thing is umm - is there an inspector there 8 that's free? 9 CP: Ahh - yeah. Its just a matter of getting 10 him to a ph - a free phone. That'll be the 11 thing. It'll be Inspector Linton. 12 AP: Okay. 13 CP: Okay? 14 AP: Okay. I just need him for a couple 15 minutes. 16 CP: Okay sir. Hang on one. 17 [PAUSE] 18 DL: Yes Tony. 19 AP: Dale? 20 DL: Yup. 21 AP: Ahh- when you were talking to me the other 22 night, you said that - about that light 23 armoured carrier? 24 DL: Yeah. 25 AP: That London city has?
2621 DL: Yes. 2 AP: And they were going to change their 3 position on it? That they would allow us 4 to have it? 5 DL: Yes. 6 AP: Ah - can we make some moves to get that 7 thing closer to where we are? 8 DL: Yeah. Ahh - I can. I was talking to John 9 about the permanent ones and he was saying 10 [clears throat] probably four or five days 11 so London is it. They were going to run 12 that vehicle. They have - I guess - it's a 13 four day course so I could call London 14 Police Service and see, and I guess if it 15 can be transported we probably like it to 16 be - err - Some people were suggesting 17 Pinery - other people were - should be out 18 of sight. Because if people see that thing 19 comin' in. 20 AP: Well - well [static] I'd like to - I'd 21 like to know number one - how they 22 transport it in - like is it a cube van or 23 something? 24 DL: Yeah. 'Cause it - people see it. And the 25 other thing was that we were very
2631 sensitive to it - I - I - they refer to it 2 as a GM Diesel but I - I'm thinking its 3 probably military coloured? And the 4 military do not want anything with their 5 colours. They - You know they'd want it 6 painted with OPP on it or something. But - 7 but I'lll make those calls now and find 8 out. 9 AP: Okay. 10 DL: Now I've got Marcel Beaubien and Fred 11 Thomas in my office right now. And they're 12 willing - 13 AP: (interrupting) Where can we meet with 14 them? 15 DL: Well - they're here. Or they could come 16 to Grand Bend. 17 AP: Could they come to Grand Bend? 18 DL: Yes. 19 AP: We would really appreciate that. 20 DL: Okay. And I'm just finishing up - this 21 little briefing with people (laughs). Its 22 hard to do it, but - 23 AP: I know, I know. We'd really like to talk 24 to - 25 DL: In fact I could probably send it up with
2641 them in an envelope. I'll seal it. So 2 they'll be up there in about half hour? 3 AP: Half hour? 4 DL: Okay. And I'll have called you by then 5 with some kind of an answer about this - 6 this vehicle. 7 AP: Okay that's fine. Umm - yeah - that - 8 that's good. And ah - I was talking to the 9 officer that answered the phone - they 10 were looking for a copy of the press 11 release that went out. 12 DL: Yeah. 13 AP: Yeah, I know I saw one earlier this 14 morning at Forest Detachment. By the way, 15 I apologise for not taking -having the 16 opportunity to talk to you when I was 17 there. I saw you walk by a couple of 18 times. 19 DL: Well, I mean I had just got back. I was 20 out seizing those handguns eh so. 21 AP: Yeah. 22 DL: Well the long guns for the TRU and the 23 handguns for the other guys. 24 AP: Yeah, I know. So yeah, anyway you're 25 hanging out okay.
2651 DL: Yeah! 2 AP: Okay. Jim Gordon will probably be arriving 3 fairly shortly. 4 DL: Okay. 5 AP: But I'd like you to - I'm sorry? Its 6 Command Post. (small pause) Do you happen 7 to know off-hand if Smith - Lorne Smith is 8 around? 9 DL: I haven't seen him. At all. Haven't seen 10 him. 11 AP: You -- you haven't seen him. Is Pierre 12 Jacques there? 13 DL: No. 14 AP: Just -just hang on one second. (background 15 noise) All right. If you could - that 16 other officer was going to look for a copy 17 of that press release. We'd just like a 18 copy faxed over here. 19 DL: Yeah. 20 AP: Ah - 'cause ah - the Commissioner was 21 looking for a copy. 22 DL: Okay. 23 AP: When we get it we'll send it in. 24 DL: Okay. 25 AP: Okay?
2661 DL: Yip. 2 AP: Thank you very much Dale. 3 DL: Okay bye. 4 End of conversation 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: And you were able to follow that 8 along in the transcript as well? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Yes, thank you. If we could have 11 that marked as the next exhibit please, Commissioner. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1066, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1066: Anthony Parkin audiotape 15 transcript, Parkin/Linton, 16 07:32 hours, Sept. 07/'95. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: All right. I see initially in your - 20 - in your discussion with the command post, you're asking 21 for a copy of the press release. 22 Do you see that at page 1? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And then subsequently when you're 25 speaking with Inspector Linton, and that's on page 3 of
2671 3. It says: 2 "I was talking to that officer that 3 answered the phone. They were looking 4 for a copy of the press release that 5 went out." 6 Right? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: Are you with me on that? Just before 12 that, if you go up just a few lines where Inspector 13 Linton says: 14 "Okay. And I'm just finishing up this 15 little briefing with people. It's 16 hard to do that." 17 And you say: 18 "I know, I know. We'd really like to 19 talk to --" 20 And he says: 21 "In fact I could probably send it up 22 with them in an envelope. I'll seal 23 it so they'll be up there in about a 24 half an hour." 25 Do you know what he's talking about? Was
2681 he referring to the briefing that he's just indicating 2 that he's trying to finish with some people there? 3 A: I would expect so, yes, sir. 4 Q: All right. And the press release, 5 did you eventually get a copy faxed to you? 6 A: If I had asked for it and they found 7 it I -- I would have received it. 8 Q: Okay. There's a document in front of 9 you, it's Inquiry Document 1009047. It's been marked in 10 these proceedings as Exhibit P-440. It would appear to 11 be under the letterhead of the Ontario Provincial Police. 12 It says: 13 "News release communique for release 14 September 7th '95." 15 Have you had a chance to look at that? 16 A: I have two (2) in front of me, sir. 17 Q: We'll start with the first one that's 18 approximately four (4) paragraphs. Well, it is four (4) 19 paragraphs. 20 A: The single page document, sir? 21 Q: The single page document. At the 22 bottom of it it says: 23 "Contact Sergeant Doug Babbitt." 24 And it gives a phone number there. 25 A: Yes, sir.
2691 Q: And can you tell us if this document 2 looks familiar to you? 3 A: I'm sure I would have seen it. 4 Q: It's just been pointed out by Mr. 5 Falconer, if you turn to document upside down there seems 6 to be a telefax stamp from OPP media Ipperwash, phone 7 number, September 7th, 1995 at 6:09 a.m.. 8 Do you see that? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. And does that help you 11 out at all in terms of your recollection of whether you 12 would have seen this in and around that particular time? 13 A: No, but I -- I don't doubt that I 14 would have seen this at some point in time. 15 Q: Thank you. The other document that 16 we placed in front of you, Mr. Parkin, is a four (4) page 17 document, and again it's under the heading of Ontario 18 Provincial Police. 19 This is Inquiry Document Number 1001088 20 and it's been marked as Exhibit P-546 under the 21 letterhead of Ontario Provincial Police and it's titled, 22 "News Release Communique." It's from General 23 Headquarters for release September 7th, 1995 and you see 24 it's titled, "Clarification of Events." 25 A: Yes, sir.
2701 Q: And did you see this document? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I don't definitely recall seeing it 6 but, again, I'm sure I would have at some point in time. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. I'm sorry, 8 there's a -- there's a second part to -- to that 9 document. And if you'll turn two (2) pages in there's a 10 document that is -- bears the same inquiry document 11 number and it's attached as part of this exhibit and it's 12 entitled, "Chronology of Events, Incident at Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park." 14 A: Yes, sir? 15 Q: A copy of which is up on the screen. 16 And does that look familiar to you at all? 17 A: I may have provided the information 18 for that chronology. 19 Q: All right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And you'll recall, in the previous 24 conversation that you had, it was indicated to you that 25 there would be a synopsis provided to you.
2711 And I guess the question I'm simply asking 2 is whether this is the synopsis that you had been -- been 3 seeking or that Inspector Linton indicated in your 4 telephone conversation of 06:05 hours, whether that was 5 the -- the synopsis he was going to send to you? 6 A: It could have been, sir. 7 Q: The discussion also talks about the 8 fact that MPP Beaubien and Mayor Fred Thomas were wishing 9 to meet, and you had invited them to come to Grand Bend. 10 I take it they did come to Grand Bend? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Were you aware at the time that 13 Marcel Beaubien was at the Command Post? 14 A: With John Carson? 15 Q: Yeah. Prior to this? 16 A: I don't know if I was aware that he 17 was, prior to. I did come to learn that. 18 Q: And once you had learned that did -- 19 did you have any -- any issues around that? 20 A: Given the circumstances, no, sir. 21 Q: Do you have a recollection that MPP 22 Beaubien was wishing to have a press release of his own 23 in and around that time? 24 A: There was discussion. I can't recall 25 definitely if it was Marcel or Fred Thomas or a
2721 combination. 2 Q: But in any event a meeting was set up 3 at Grand Bend and I think you've confirmed that they did 4 attend there? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Can you tell us anything about that - 7 - about that meeting? 8 A: Again, I don't -- I believe that 9 meeting was mainly between Chief Superintendent Coles. I 10 may have been in and out of the room while they were 11 there. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: At some point in time you would have 17 been involved in appointing Inspector Gordon as incident 18 commander. 19 Do you have a recall as to when that might 20 have occurred, sir? 21 A: Sometime early that morning. 22 Q: All right. And in fact, you put 23 together a roster of incident commanders, as you've 24 already confirmed for us. 25 A: I don't know that I put it together.
2731 I -- I made some calls as -- probably was assisted. They 2 would have prepared their own roster for working. 3 Q: All right. Thank you. The last 4 recording that I want to take you to, you'll find a 5 transcript of same at Tab 19 of the audio brief, that is 6 a call from yourself to Inspector Gordon. 7 And you'll see that later on in that 8 conversation Inspector Linton comes on line. It's time 9 stamped at 09:05 hours, September the 7th of 1995. 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: All right. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 [CP = Command Post, Sergeant Moffat] 16 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 17 [JG = Inspector Jim Gordon] 18 [DL = Inspector Dale Linton (deceased)] 19 20 CP: Command Post. Sergeant Moffat. 21 AP: Yeah, Sergeant Moffat, Superintendent 22 Parkin. How are you? 23 CP: How are you Tony? 24 AP: Well, we're okay. 25 CP: Yeah, me too I think.
2741 AP: Okay. 2 CP: We're here. 3 AP: Good. Ah, Inspector Gordon please. 4 CP: Okay. Hang on a sec. 5 AP: Thanks. 6 [brief pause] 7 ("What is that?" - spoken while on hold) 8 JG: Tony. 9 AP: Yes. 10 JG: How are ya? 11 AP: Not too bad. 12 JG: Okay. 13 AP: Before you start, a little bit of news for 14 ya. 15 JG: Mmhmm? 16 AP: Ahh - you'll - we got twelve TRU enroute 17 from Belleville. 18 19 JG: Okay. 20 AP: Okay? Just so you're aware of that. 21 JG: Yeah, I'm gonna make a note of it. 22 AP: Okay. And are you aware that umm - that 23 you have audio in the hookups in the Park? 24 JG: I understand that, yeah. 25 AP: Okay.
2751 JG: Yeah. 2 AP: Now, you had something for me. 3 JG: Yeah, well that audio's going back to 4 Grand Bend though isn't it? 5 AP: Yup. 6 JG: Yeah, okay. Well - ah - ah - I'm here. I'm 7 assuming you want me to take over from 8 Dale. I haven't seen Jerry Thompson yet. 9 AP: Ah, we didn't call Jerry. 10 JG: Oh, I thought you did. 11 AP: No - 12 JG: I thought you said you were calling him. 13 AP: We - well, we were thinking about that. Ah 14 - what we hope to do is now that you're 15 here, and we'll go with three. Umm - 16 John's sleeping now? 17 JG: John? Carson? He must be, he's not here. 18 AP: Yeah. Dale's still there? 19 20 JG: Yeah. 21 AP: Okay. And Dale will bring you up to 22 speed. 23 JG: Yeah. 24 AP: And then, he can crash. [inaudible - 25 background noise]
2761 JG: Where are the - okay. What are ah - what 2 are you doing -you fellows doing over 3 there in Grand Bend? What part are you 4 playing? Just so I know, what you want me 5 to do? 6 AP: Okay. You are the Incident Commander. 7 JG: Yeah. 8 AP: The same as - of course John was. 9 JG: Yeah. 10 AP: And Dale. 11 JG: Yeah. 12 AP: We are dealing with the Commissioner's 13 office, First Nations Policing. Ron Fox. 14 We just met with Marcel Beaubien and the 15 mayor of ah - 16 JG: Marcel is the MPP? 17 AP: Yeah. The MPP for the area of Petrolia. 18 JG: Yeah, I met him. 19 AP: Okay. And also we just met with the mayor 20 of Bosanquet. 21 JG: Uh huh. 22 AP: Ah - so we are trying to get those things 23 in gear. Trying to get people from outside 24 to try and - try and negotiate [inaudible] 25 . We've been talking to Ovide Mercredi
2771 this - this morning. 2 JG: Uh huh. Well - 3 AP: (interrupting) So that's what we're doing. 4 JG: Okay. 5 AP: That's why we're here. So that there isn't 6 confusion as to who's in charge there. 7 JG: Okay. What I - okay what we've discussed 8 and what we plan to do is that we have ah 9 - information that there's going to be a 10 large gathering of natives on that reserve 11 and they may try to march up to Pinery. Or 12 up to the Ipperwash Provincial Park. And 13 our plan is- is -is to try to deflect 14 them. To prevent them from getting in 15 there. 16 AP: Why are they planning on doing this? Do we 17 know? 18 JG: We don't know yet... 19 AP: Okay. 20 21 JG: ...But that's just sort of information 22 coming in. And what we're trying to do is 23 to deflect that ah- so that - its still a 24 crime scene. 25 AP: Yes.
2781 JG: And ah - I don't know where - what - where 2 ah - 3 AP: We don't have the scene, but you're right, 4 it is a crime scene - somewhere. 5 JG: And I don't know who's - who's -I don't 6 even know where the negotiators are yet? 7 Do we have any negotiators around here? 8 AP: They did have negotiators. Brad Seltzer 9 was a negotiator... 10 JG: 'kay. 11 AP: Ah - 12 JG: But we're not in contact with anybody 13 inside the - 14 AP: (interrupting) Oh no! Nobody's talking to 15 us from inside. 16 JG: Yeah. And we don't know how many are in 17 there. 18 AP: Well we've tried numerous - numerous times 19 over the last few days. 20 JG: Okay. 21 22 AP: No we don't have an exact head count of 23 how many are in there. 24 JG: Okay. So my position would be that we keep 25 a - deflect all the traffic, divert all
2791 traffic that's coming into the area. Away 2 from the Park. Ah, ah, to keep a minimum 3 number of people in there. 4 AP: Yeah. That - I think that the plan they 5 were going with and basically what they 6 were trying to do last night was simply 7 prevent ah innocent people from - from 8 being harassed and ah what happened though 9 was a councilman that had attended a 10 meeting down in that area- 11 JG: Yeah 12 AP: ...was driving home and met up with a 13 group on the road and they ended up 14 banging up his car - 15 JG: Yeah 16 AP: ...Our officers went down and of course 17 you know it all hit the fan. 18 JG: Yeah 19 AP: So we now of course have roadblocks - 20 JG: Yeah 21 AP: ...as you are aware and we're - we're 22 basically back into contain and we're 23 going to try to attempt to negotiate. 24 JG: Yeah, okay. We have some Ind- some native 25 negotiators arriving from different areas,
2801 and talking to the chief down at Kettle or 2 Stoney - I'm not sure which one it is just 3 yet. Do you want us to let them in? 4 AP: Ah - I don't know who you're talking about 5 Jim. 6 JG: Ah - some guy ah - When you say ah - we're 7 trying to arrange negotiations... 8 AP: (interrupting - inaudible) 9 JG: ... If the native leadership shows up - do 10 you want me to - 11 12 AP: (interrupting) We're not aware of anybody 13 going down to do that for us. 14 JG: Tony. Do you want us to let these - I 15 guess - do you want us to let these 16 natives - negotiators in? Or - 17 AP: (interrupting) Well - 18 JG: (interrupting)... Or how do we do it? How 19 are they going to make contact with these 20 people in there? 21 AP: Well, first of all - Tom Bressette. We - 22 we - we had allowed him - There's a - a - 23 a woman. That was cooking meals for them 24 and whatnot. 25 JG: Uh huh?
2811 AP: She's a council - councilwoman for the - 2 ah - ah - Stoney... 3 JG: Mmhmm. 4 AP: ...Stoney Point -legitimate band. 5 JG: Yeah. 6 AP: So the chief - umm - Tom Bressette, from 7 Kettle there. He is ah - he asked us early 8 this morning if she can go in there. And 9 she is gone in and she is trying to talk 10 to them to get them to give this thing up. 11 JG: Okay. 12 AP: Now, as far as anybody else. We don't know 13 of anybody else that's going down there to 14 try and start negotiations... 15 JG: Okay. 16 AP: ...Because we haven't got any commitment 17 from Ovide Mercredi, Bressette. We're also 18 trying to get a hold of - umm... 19 JG: But that will come through us. Here. Ah - 20 Like I mean - these people are - I mean if 21 we're dealing with these people they're 22 not going to - deal with you - ah ah - 23 then we get it second hand. That idea. You 24 know what I mean. 25 AP: Ah - no. We - we're just trying to get it
2821 kick started. 2 JG: Yeah. 3 AP: From a broad field. If somebody says 4 yeah, we're agreeable to do that, then the 5 first thing you're going to hear is a 6 phone call from us saying listen. You 7 know. We've got somebody to help ya. 8 JG: Okay. Because we don't want to send 9 anybody or let anybody in there that we 10 don't know anything about. 11 AP: No. And I agree with that. As much 12 as possible, you're going to freeze that 13 place... 14 JG: Yup, yup. 15 AP: ...And if you have somebody that says they 16 are down there on our behalf, then simply 17 call us. 18 JG: Okay. 19 AP: Because we will be calling you if it gets 20 that far. 21 JG: Okay. Okay. Anyways just - I just want to 22 know what my position is so that when I - 23 right now I'm trying to contain it. And 24 not let anybody in. 25 AP: That's right.
2831 JG: (interrupting) And - and - 2 AP: And basically I'm sure Dale will tell you 3 the strategy is to simply - all we want to 4 do right now is to contain. And under no 5 circumstances do we want to be sending 6 people into that Park. Or being baited to 7 go into the Park. 8 JG: No. 9 AP: Or where we got - what happened last night 10 when they came out of that Park and they - 11 they attacked us outside of the Park. 12 JG: Right. 13 AP: And we were simply in the - self-defense 14 mode ourselves. That's why [inaudible] 15 contain, contain, contain and we'll try 16 [inaudible] you know, trying to get this 17 thing to calm down a bit. 18 JG: Okay. 19 AP: All right? 20 JG: And you're in agreement though that we 21 don't let anybody go in. 22 23 AP: Yeah! 24 JG: Yeah? 25 AP: I don't have any problem with that at all.
2841 JG: Okay? Yeah. That's right. 2 AP: But if somebody - if we get some movement 3 on somebody that's prepared to negotiate 4 or somebody that they think will listen to 5 them, then we'll call you and set it up. 6 JG: All right, okay. Okay, Dale wants to talk 7 to you. And ah - I'll talk to you later. 8 AP: Okay. 9 DL: Tony? 10 AP: Yeah. 11 DL: Ah - I just talked to Tom Bressette and he 12 ah - It kind of worked backwards. We had 13 somebody come to one of our checkpoints, 14 actually at Ipperwash Road and Twenty-One, 15 and say he was supposed to be negotiating 16 - at the request of the Stoney people. So- 17 and Tom Bressette. So we told him to go 18 down to ah - to Kettle Point and see Tom 19 Bressette. In the interim, Tom Bressette 20 just phoned me and said you know I'm 21 expecting a guy, did you guys stop him? 22 And I said yeah, we just sent him down 23 there so. We had a guy named Bruce Elijah 24 and B- and a Bob Antone from Oneida. 25 AP: Oh yes. I know the second name.
2851 DL: Do ya? I guess we could get our 2 Intelligence guys maybe doing something. 3 AP: Is it Bruce? Elijah? 4 DL: Bruce Elijah. 5 AP: Yeah. 6 DL: Bob Antone. 7 AP: ...and Bob Antone. Okay well he ah - if 8 I'm not mistaken, Bob Antone was out at 9 Oka. Elijah. Well Howard Elijah is the - 10 ah - head of the traditionalists on - the 11 ah - on the Oneida Reserve. So he's 12 probably a relative of his. 13 DL: What Tom Bressette says is I said what do 14 you think of these guys and he says well - 15 they're not bad but he said if they're the 16 guys that the Stoney people have asked for 17 ah- he said I would recommend that you let 18 them go on and ah - see what they can do. 19 AP: Mmhmm. 20 DL: Because- no - we're not making any 21 progress in the other way. Umm - he is in 22 conversation with Mercredi I guess and uh- 23 24 AP: Apparently, yeah. 25 DL: And there's another guy - another guy that
2861 keeps phoning and he was talking to Tom 2 Bressette a few minutes ago - a Ronald 3 French - who is with the Office of 4 Ministry of Indian Affairs and Northern 5 Development. So he's supposed to come here 6 at eleven o'clock. But I don't know what 7 you know - 8 AP: Yeah, I don't know where that came from. 9 DL: What's up to him. But anyways I guess the 10 issue is - Elijah and Antone - do we - do 11 we decide to let them go on and try to 12 negotiate or do we keep them out? 13 AP: Well I think first of all we talk to them. 14 You know, they're going down to negotiate 15 on whose behalf. Ah - 16 DL: Well the question I had - that's the 17 question I asked of Tom and he said to 18 just negotiate ah - its one way 19 negotiation where he - he figures they're 20 going to try to convince the ah - the 21 Stoney Point dissidents to ah - to reach a 22 peaceful solution so really its not a 23 negotiation. It's a - you know. It takes 24 two sides to negotiate. 25 AP: Well yeah, that's right. It be nice to
2871 know that - it'd be nice to hear them say 2 that I guess. 3 DL: So we - we - we could intervene, I 4 suppose. They're at his office now. And 5 ah - 6 AP: At who's office? Bressette's? 7 DL: Yeah. Well, that's where they're headin'. 8 AP: Yeah. Well I think that if that - if that 9 is their - their purpose then ah - we 10 should be apprised and ah - on board with 11 what they're going to attempt to do and 12 how they are going to attempt to assist 13 us. 14 DL: Okay, I'm just ah - wondering how we can 15 best do that. I suppose I can go down 16 there and - 17 AP: Well, first of all. I guess - just call 18 Tom. 19 DL: Yeah. 20 AP: You know, just kind of get the background. 21 You know, who invited these people down? 22 And what their plan of attack if going to 23 be? 24 25 DL: Well, I can - I can answer that. The - The
2881 Stoney Point made it - made him aware that 2 they're the people he wanted. And he 3 agreed to it. 4 AP: Okay. Then somebody from that ah - from 5 the militants - 6 DL: Yeah. 7 AP: ...asked for them. 8 DL: Yes. 9 AP: Okay then. I think its fair that we ask ah 10 - Antone and Elijah - umm- how they 11 propose to go about what they're doing. 12 And will they give us - will they feed 13 back information to us? 14 DL: Okay. 15 AP: To assist us in a peaceful resolution of 16 this issue. 17 DL: I suspect they're going to say we're going 18 to go in and talk to them and you're not 19 part of the thing. We're just gonna try 20 to - 21 AP: Yeah, but I guess the reality is we are 22 part of it because as you said - er - or 23 as Jim said, I mean we've got a crime 24 scene down there. 25
2891 DL: Yeah. 2 AP: And its - its - its not about the land 3 issue anymore. 4 DL: No. Well - ah - 5 AP: (interrupting - very faint) [inaudible] 6 ...about attempt murder. 7 DL: Yup. Yup. 8 AP: ...being investigated... 9 DL: Yeah. 10 AP: [inaudible] ... negotiators... 11 DL: And we're prepared to keep them out of 12 there if need be. Ummm- I guess probably 13 the best way is since I know Tom Bressette 14 probably better than - well probably 15 better than anybody else that's here, 16 maybe that I should do it. And ah - 17 AP: Yeah. 18 DL: If we're comfortable if they're going in 19 for the right reasons then I'll call you 20 back and... 21 AP: (interrupting) Yeah, yeah. After you've 22 talked to them and you've got a - you've 23 got a - some kind of a - a better sense of 24 what they're all about yeah give us a call 25 back and let us know.
2901 DL: All right. I'll ah - I'll head up there 2 now. 3 AP: Okay. 4 DL: Thanks. 5 AP: All right. 6 DL: Oh! You're still there? 7 AP: Yeah. 8 DL: Here's Jim. 9 JG: One other thing. Martin Brown is Sergeant 10 from the ah - the ah - he's doing the 11 press releases. He's - 12 AP: Yes. 13 JG: He's at the Pinery Centre. And I sent him 14 some information over there but I don't 15 know how much you want to release. Or how 16 much we can release with respect to SIU 17 being involved. 18 AP: Okay. Don't release anything. Umm - 19 without - Bob Goodall's the CIB inspector. 20 JG: Yup. 21 AP: And any release should be done by him. And 22 I think what the agreement that they've 23 come up with is that they will - ah - try 24 to make joint agreements with the SIU. 25 JG: Okay.
2911 AP: Because the SIU is given the nod to him as 2 a lead investigator because the attempt 3 murder. 4 JG: Yeah. 5 AP: Ah - ah - they're - they're just here to 6 look at the shooting of the - of - Dudley. 7 JG: Okay. Okay. I just wanted to pass that 8 information on. 9 AP: Yeah. No problem. 10 JG: Okay. Yeah. Any releases go through - go 11 with Bob. Or - 12 AP: Yup. 13 JG: And SIU. 14 AP: Yup. 'Cause its his - its his 15 investigation now. 16 JG: Okay. 17 AP: Okay? 18 JG: Yip. 19 AP: All righty. 20 JG: I'll talk to you later. 21 AP: Good. 22 JG: Right you are. Bye. 23 24 End of conversation 25
2921 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: And again, sir, you were able to 3 follow that? 4 A: Yes, I was, sir. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: And that could be 6 marked then as the next exhibit, commissioner. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1067, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1067: Anthony Parkin audiotape 10 transcript, Parkin/Gordon, 11 09:05 hours, Sept. 07/'95 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: I noted that you did appoint 15 Inspector Gordon as the Incident Commander. At least it 16 would appear so at page 3, page 3 of 13. Inspector 17 Gordon asks you: 18 "What are you doing? What are you 19 fellows doing over there in Grand 20 Bend. What part are you playing just 21 so I know. What you want me to do?" 22 And you say: 23 "Okay. You are the Incident 24 Commander." 25 A: That's correct, sir.
2931 Q: Would that -- would that be the 2 appointment or the actual appointment? 3 A: That's correct, sir. 4 Q: You go on to describe the meeting 5 with Marcel or give him a bit of an update at least with 6 Marcel Beaubien and the Mayor of Bosanquet. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And having heard this conversation, 9 can you recall anything of that meeting? 10 A: Not specifically but I -- I know that 11 the intent of the meeting was to reassure then with 12 respect to the policing of the area and that we were 13 trying to bring calm back to the community. 14 Q: Right. And you go on to explain -- 15 or go on to talk about then what was going on. And you 16 were provided with the information from Inspector Gordon 17 of potentially this large gathering of Natives on the 18 Reserve and that there may be a march up to the Pinery or 19 to the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 20 Can you see that at the top of page 4? 21 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 22 Q: And the -- the plan, at least at that 23 moment, was to try to contain the situation and that it 24 was still considered to be a crime scene. 25 A: Yes, sir.
2941 Q: In spite of the fact that you didn't 2 have containment over the crime -- crime scene, that was 3 still the hope I take it? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And towards the bottom of the page 6 around the discussion around negotiators you've advised 7 Inspector Gordon that nobody's talking from the inside in 8 spite of the fact that there have been numerous attempts 9 to do so over the past several days. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: All right. The conversation at the 12 middle of page 5 is about Native negotiators and I think 13 it continues on. And I -- I expect that ultimately what 14 happens is there's this -- continues with the discussion 15 that you have with Inspector Dale Linton at page 8, and 16 that he identifies Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone as 17 potential negotiators. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And you go on to simply to describe a 20 -- a plan of how they might be useful within that 21 process. 22 A: Clearly. 23 Q: Is that fair? Thank you. 24 A: Yes, it's fair. 25 Q: Inspector Linton advises you at -- in
2951 the middle of page 9 that Ronald French from the office 2 of the Ministry of Indian Affairs and Northern 3 Development was suppose to attend at eleven o'clock. 4 Do you know whether or not he ever did 5 attend? 6 A: I have a recollection, I believe he 7 in fact attended at Grand Bend very briefly. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I seem to recall that because I 10 believe he had a business card. 11 Q: Can you recall any discussion that he 12 might have been involved in? 13 A: Not that I was directly involved with 14 him. I just vaguely remember him introducing himself, 15 that type of thing. 16 Q: All right. And just the last thing 17 that I want to ask you with respect to this transcript, 18 Mr. Parkin, at page 12. It actually continues from -- 19 from the bottom of the previous page when Inspector 20 Gordon tells you that Martin Brown, Sergeant, is doing up 21 a press release and you inform him, Don't do anything 22 without going through CIB, Mr. -- Officer Goodall. 23 A: That's correct. When -- anytime in 24 the field when we had a -- a major occurrence, major 25 enough for an investigator from CIB to be sent and
2961 assigned, then they would look after the press releases 2 for that investigation which they were overseeing. 3 Q: I wonder if you might just go on then 4 and describe, even with reference to your notes, if you 5 would, your handwritten notes, which I think we left off 6 at page 32, Mr. Parkin. If you can describe your 7 activities and conversations for the remainder of -- of 8 that day, September the 7th of '95? 9 A: Starting at 18:00 hours? 10 Q: Unless there's anything that you can 11 recall prior to that? 12 A: No, I -- I think most of the day was 13 spent making phone calls, general discussions, and then 14 around six o'clock we attended at the Pinedale Motor 15 Hotel. I was accompanying Chief Superintendent Coles for 16 a meeting with Ovide Mercredi and Grand Chiefs to deal 17 with the situation. 18 The meeting eventually started around 19 20:00 hours. It started with their traditional 20 ceremonies which led into negotiations. 21 23:15 hours we negotiated points for the 22 OPP to look into and those for the First Nations to 23 address. 24 There was some agreement to arrange joint 25 patrol of cottage area, West Beach with a First Nation
2971 and OPP officer. 2 Obtain a copy for the injunction tomorrow. 3 Check re. guards of prisoners at the 4 Strathroy hospital. 5 Call Bob Goodall treatment of young 6 offender in hospital. 7 Continual questioning. 8 Complaints of the mother. 9 Check our process at roadblocks. 10 Next meeting was going to be at four 11 o'clock on the 8th of September in Kettle Point. 12 Q: All right. I -- I don't intend to 13 ask you about any of your involvement in the matter 14 subsequent to that point in any kind of specific terms, 15 but as I understand it you -- and from looking at your 16 notes you maintained some presence throughout the next 17 period of time? 18 A: Yes. Once we made the -- the 19 progress by having this initial meeting and there were 20 quite a -- a large number of First Nations 21 representatives there at the Pinedale. 22 So after that meetings were set up and we 23 continued that process as often as need be, trying to de- 24 escalate the situation, bring some sense of normalcy back 25 into the community, make progress with respect to what it
2981 was that the occupiers wanted. 2 We also, while we weren't acting on behalf 3 of the Ministry of Natural Resources, we were still 4 trying to get -- as time went on, there were certain 5 things that had to be done in the Park to insure it for 6 the winter coming on and the water supply, those types of 7 things. So -- and I was assisting Chris. 8 I would go with him and, basically, when 9 the issues around the Ministry of Natural Resources came 10 up, we would speak to them but we couldn't commit for 11 them. And then we go back and we would talk to Les 12 Kobayashi from the Ministry and he, in turn, would go up 13 the chain through his people to see if that was agreeable 14 and then he'd get back to us. 15 It was -- it was a bit of a slow process 16 but, regardless, we were making progress and so we 17 continued to work on it. While sometimes Chief Coles was 18 doing other things, I was meeting with the Town of 19 Bosanquet because they had concerns about numerous issues 20 and community groups and local residents. 21 So I was out there trying to assure the 22 community that we were doing everything that we could to 23 ensure the public safety and meeting with them to answer 24 any questions that I could. 25 And that carried on for a straight, I
2991 believe it was around eighteen (18) days straight and 2 then it slowed down to meetings every other day or 3 whatnot and we met into '96, continuing the process. 4 Q: All right. Within that initial 5 period, there were eventually certain agreements that 6 we've come to understand were reached as between the 7 people in the Park and the OPP. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And one of those had to do with 10 patrolling the area. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And ultimately a return of the scene 13 as well as return of certain equipment that was taken 14 from the TOC centre. 15 A: Those -- those issues were all 16 eventually worked out, yes. 17 Q: All right. And part of the 18 discussion that -- that we heard in that last transcript, 19 in that last recording, the Native negotiators, Bruce 20 Elijah and Bob Antone, did they play a role in this, to 21 your knowledge? 22 A: Absolutely. They played a very 23 important role. They -- they provided that continuity in 24 the first throes. 25 As -- as we went along, sometimes there
3001 were changes as to who was there, but they certainly were 2 extremely helpful and beneficial to -- to moving the 3 yardsticks and eventually getting things returned to, I 4 won't say normal, but to a much better state. 5 Q: All right. Sir, the last area that I 6 want to ask you about is that eventually it came to your 7 attention that there was a First Nations employee with 8 the Ministry of Natural Resources that had some concerns 9 about certain things within his workplace. 10 A: That's correct, sir. I -- I received 11 a, I believe it was a phone call from Staff Sergeant 12 Charlie Bouwman advising me that an employee of the MNR 13 had come forward with a number of complaints. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: We'll put in front of you, sir, two 18 (2) separate binders. They're entitled, Ipperwash 19 Inquiry, Privileged Documents. It's Volumes I and II. 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And there -- they were previously 22 marked as an exhibit, and that is P-1051. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3011 Q: No, 1052. My sight isn't what it 2 used to be, thank you. 1051 and 1052, that's correct. 3 And if you could turn to Tab number 16 at 4 Volume I, that is at 1051. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Number 16? 9 Q: Tab number 16, please. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And result -- 14 A: Well -- 15 Q: As a result of receiving this 16 information from Staff Sergeant Bouwman, I take it that 17 you would have prepared something? 18 A: Yes, I eventually did. Initially, he 19 call -- called me to tell me that he did have some 20 complaints and concerns about some t-shirts and other 21 things that had taken place in the Ministry buildings. 22 And so I asked him to, you know, go back and get the 23 information for me. 24 Normally, when somebody comes to complain 25 about the police there's a -- you take a statement and a
3021 public complaint from the individual. 2 That seemed to be taking a long time and I 3 eventually, I believe, was talking to Charlie and he was 4 having some difficulty getting that initial statement of 5 complaint. 6 Given that I had an understanding of what 7 was involved and the seriousness of it, I chose to 8 initiate an internal complaint, which allowed us to get 9 on with the investigation, notwithstanding that we didn't 10 have a formal, public complaint. 11 But I didn't want it to -- to linger 12 without something being done on it. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And I eventually assigned an 15 investigator. 16 Q: I don't want you to mention that 17 investigator's name, because you can see from that 18 document in front of you that that name has been 19 obliterated -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- right? Or redacted. But is that 22 document at -- at page 16, which bears the date 17th of 23 October '95, it has your name typed on it so I take it 24 that's not your signature? 25 A: No. That's Inspector Carson's. He -
3031 - he signed it for me which isn't unusual. I had it 2 initiated and he signed it for me to get the process 3 moving. I might not have been in the office when the 4 documentation was drawn up. 5 Q: All right. Thank you. 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, I should just 7 point out that actually the investigator, who is Staff 8 Sergeant Atkin, his name is -- is not redacted, by 9 agreement. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Oh, I'm sorry. 11 MR. MARK SANDLER: So I just wanted to 12 clarify that. And -- and the other thing, just while 13 we're on the topic, is that I believe in the 14 photocopying, in the materials that you have, the final 15 page, page 19 of Detective Sergeant -- Staff Sergeant 16 Atkin's report wasn't reproduced. 17 So we should make sure that all counsels 18 get a copy of that as well. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 My copy ends at page 17. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No it's got -- past 17 22 has, which is Staff Sergeant Atkin's report, goes down to 23 page 18. The 17 that you're referring to is simply the 24 document number. 25 But if you go back three (3) pages, you'll
3041 see page 18 and it's -- I guess we're missing page 19. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The copy I 3 have, the pages aren't numbered. Do you want a number -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. No. Sir, if you 5 go -- if you -- they are actually, but what you need to 6 do is look down -- if you go back in from the back -- 7 five (5) pages from the back, then you'll see -- go down 8 the page to the first writing on the page at the top, it 9 says page 18. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 11 sorry. I do see that now, yes. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And so I guess we're 13 missing page 19. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 15 Roland...? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, 17 with respect to Staff Sergeant Dennis Atkin, he has 18 agreed to consent to the disclosure of his name as the 19 investigator. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. 22 Carry on, Mr. Worme. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: I stand corrected on that and do
3051 believe I heard, actually, Ms. Vella report to that 2 yesterday morning and I apologize if that has caused any 3 confusion. 4 I was looking, Mr. Parkin, at the 5 redaction on -- on the actual complaints processing 6 report. 7 Do you see that at Tab 16? 8 A: Yes, sir, I do. 9 Q: Traffic Staff Sergeant and there's a 10 name that's been redacted. That's all that I was 11 referring to. 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: All right. Thank you. As a result 14 of your filing, then, this internal complaint, can you 15 tell us what happened, what the process is? 16 A: After filing the complaint and 17 assigning an investigator, then I would leave it to the 18 investigator to contact Staff Sergeant Bouwman and 19 interview whoever he felt necessary, and basically get to 20 the heart of the issue and see exactly what went on. 21 Q: All right. And did you have any 22 further involvement -- any further involvement in terms 23 of being any part of that investigation, beyond 24 appointing the investigator? 25 A: No. Not until it was concluded.
3061 Q: Okay. And I'll come to that in a 2 moment. But what was your understanding of the concerns 3 at -- at that time when you initiated the complaint? 4 A: I believe he -- the complainant was 5 concerned about some pictures on a -- on a chalkboard. 6 Concern about the way he was being -- or was being 7 treated or perceived he was being treated within the MNR 8 area. There was issues around t-shirts being produced 9 coffee mugs. 10 Q: With respect to those t-shirts and 11 coffee mugs can you recall anything specific on that? 12 A: With respect to what was on them? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: My -- the logo on the t-shirt had the 15 TRU and ERT and there was a -- a feather underneath the 16 crest, I believe -- believe it was the OPP crest. 17 The coffee mugs, there were two (2) 18 versions I was to find out. I don't know if I knew that 19 at the start. Were -- one (1) I believe was Camp 20 Ipperwash '95 and the other one was a logo with a -- with 21 an arrow through it. I think it was Team Ipperwash. 22 Q: All right. And as a result of those 23 concerns and your appointment of an investigator, did an 24 investigation occur? 25 A: Yes, sir, it did.
3071 Q: And what was the outcome of that 2 investigation? 3 A: A lengthy report was put together. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Many interviews were conducted with 6 MNR staff, OPP officers of all ranks, and I received a 7 report back from Staff Sergeant Atkin with his findings. 8 Q: All right. If you can turn to Tab 9 Number 17 of that last exhibit we were just looking at, 10 there's what purports to be a report there dated January 11 the 8th of 1996. It's addressed to the Regional 12 Commander of Western Region, 150 Dufferin Avenue, Suite 13 806, London, Ontario, re. Internal Complaint, Actions of 14 OPP. 15 Is that the -- the report that you would 16 have seen? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And if you look at the subsequent 19 documents number 18 through to the, I believe, the 20 balance of the documents in Volume 2, if you just maybe 21 have a -- have a quick look at those if you haven't had a 22 chance to look at those already. I'm just -- I'm just 23 talking about the documents -- 24 A: Number 18? 25 Q: -- from -- under Tabs 18 and on.
3081 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I should ask you, had you looked at 4 it or seen any of that material as part of your review of 5 the report? 6 A: Yes, I have, sir. 7 Q: All right. And if you can maybe just 8 have a quick look through that and confirm for us that 9 that is the material that you've -- had reviewed? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes, I believe it is, sir. 14 Q: Thank you. If I could just get one 15 (1) moment please? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And beyond reviewing this material, 20 sir, did you have any further involvement in -- in that 21 issue that it deals with aside from what you've testified 22 to? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: All right. Commissioner, I don't 25 have any further questions of -- of Mr. Parkin.
3091 But I can tell you, Mr. Parkin, that one 2 of the things that we have asked every witness at the 3 conclusion of their examination-in-chief is whether they 4 might by virtue of their experience and their 5 involvement, knowledge, et cetera, whether they might 6 have any recommendations or observations that you would 7 want to put on the record that might assist the 8 Commissioner in -- in discharging his mandate in -- in 9 this Commission of Inquiry? 10 A: I realize that I'm quite far along in 11 the number of witnesses that have attended at this 12 Inquiry. I don't know that I could probably add a lot of 13 new recommendations to those. 14 But I guess from my point of view, the one 15 frustrating issue in all this is the length of time that 16 this situation was allowed to fester and the frustration 17 going back from 1942 up until the first movement into the 18 Camp, the Military Camp in '95 or '93, excuse me. 19 I firmly believe there has to be some way 20 of moving peoples that had the authority and the ability 21 to resolve these issues prior to getting the police 22 involved. 23 Simply because once we become involved, 24 and if the reason that we become involved is become -- is 25 because it's become an issue of public safety, things
3101 seem to go downhill very quickly because nobody wants to 2 get involved any more and these issues get left to the 3 police. 4 It seems to me that whether it's 5 government, in this case Federal and Provincial, First 6 Nations, we get into a state where people dig in and 7 essentially leave it to the police to fix and we can't 8 fix it. 9 We don't have the authority to fix these 10 things. We don't have the knowledge. 11 So I realize that recommendations which 12 there'll be many, the difficulty to me is the import -- 13 or the importance to me is getting those recommendations 14 implemented so that there are safeguards and teams if you 15 will, to sit down and resolve these types of situations 16 before it ever gets to the fact where the police have to 17 be involved. 18 And that's all I have to say on that, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much, Superintendent. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Parkin, My Friends 25 may have some questions of you and this might be a good
3111 time, Commissioner, if we would enquire of -- of counsel 2 as to who, first of all, wishes to cross-examine and 3 perhaps an estimate of what time they might require -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Hensel, 5 would you keep track? If anybody wishes to ask any 6 questions, would you please stand up. 7 The Ontario -- the order of cross- 8 examination will be starting with the Ontario Provincial 9 Police Association. 10 Mr. Roland...? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: Two (2) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) 13 minutes. 14 The Province of Ontario, Ms. Twohig? 15 MS. KIM TWOHIG: About fifteen (15) 16 minutes. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Fifteen (15) minutes, 18 Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. McAleer, 20 on behalf of Mr. Harris? 21 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Oh, on behalf of 22 Mr. Downard, an hour approximately. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: One (1) hour, 24 approximately. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Horner,
3121 Mr. Runciman, Mr. Hodgson -- Mr. Sulman on behalf of Mr. 2 Beaubien? 3 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Fifteen (15) 4 minutes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 6 minutes. 7 Ms. Perschy...? 8 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Twenty (20) minutes to 9 half hour approximately. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 11 didn't hear that. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) minutes to 13 half an hour, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 15 Alexander...? 16 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 17 just so you're aware. The Estate and ALST will be 18 switching positions for this Witness in terms of our 19 cross-examination order and I've heard no objections from 20 other Aboriginal Counsel regarding the switch. 21 I'll reserve half an hour to forty-five 22 (45) minutes on behalf of the Estate. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 24 how long are you reserving? 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Half an hour to
3131 forty-five (45) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an hour 3 to forty-five (45) minutes. 4 And Mr. Rosenthal? 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About three (3) 6 hours, Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 8 Neal? 9 MR. CAMERON NEAL: Two and a half -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 11 can't hear you. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Two point five (2.5) 13 hours. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About five 15 (5) hours? 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Two point five (2.5), 17 sorry. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two point 19 five (2.5). 20 Mr. Henderson...? 21 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: One point five 22 (1.5). 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that on 24 behalf of the First Nation and the Chiefs or -- because 25 there's nobody here on behalf of the Chiefs.
3141 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I believe 2 somebody may be here -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, Mr. -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thirty (30) minutes on 5 behalf of the Chiefs. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thirty (30) 7 minutes on behalf of the Chiefs. 8 Aboriginal Legal Services...? 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Commissioner, a 10 half day to a day. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A half day 12 to a day. I can hear you. 13 Does anybody have any idea how long the 14 total is? As you know I'm really most anxious to 15 complete the cross-examination of Superintendent Parkin 16 by the end of Thursday. 17 Does the time estimate allow us to do 18 that? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's seventeen (17) 23 hours, so that's three (3) days. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 25 to have to try to find some way to squeeze it up. I'm
3151 most anxious to complete the cross-examination of 2 Superintendent Parkin by the end of Tuesday. His 3 examination-in-chief took under two (2) days, I think we 4 should be able to complete the cross-examine. 5 But I'm not going to ask any specific 6 party to shorten it up. I just ask everybody to please 7 keep in mind that I'm most anxious to complete the cross- 8 examination of Superintendent Parkin by the end of 9 Thursday. 10 There should be sufficient time. If 11 everybody uses the time they've allocated to the maximum, 12 it may not be, but that often does not happen, so let's 13 carry on and see where we are. 14 We'll start with the two (2) minutes that 15 Ian Roland has estimated. I think we can handle that in 16 the balance of today. We'll complete our day today at 17 4:30. I don't want to keep you beyond 4:30 given that 18 you start at nine o'clock in the morning. We'll stop at 19 4:30. 20 Yes, Mr. Roland...? 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 23 Q: Thank you. Mr. Parkin, I'm -- my 24 name is Ian Roland, I act for the Ontario Provincial 25 Police Association. I have one (1) question for you or
3161 one (1) area and that has to do with the loss of 2 containment of the Park on September 4, 1995 in which you 3 gave evidence yesterday that -- that you supported the 4 decision because you said, in fact, Stan Korosec was the 5 one who made the decision, not John Carson; that is to 6 withdraw from the Park? 7 A: Correct, sir. 8 Q: Do you remember giving that evidence 9 yesterday? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And I want to point out to you the 12 evidence of John Carson given on May 16, 2005 at page 142 13 in which he indicated beginning at -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry, could I 15 get that reference again, Mr. Roland? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: 172. Page 172. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What date? 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: May 16/05. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: He was asked about the conversation 22 with Sergeant Korosec at the time the decision was made 23 to withdraw. The question: 24 "And can you tell us what you recall 25 of the conversation?
3171 A: I can only tell you what is in 2 the notes, sir. Basically, I've 3 articulated to him that we don't want 4 anybody hurt. Back off. Do what's 5 safe. Have everybody report back to 6 Forest." 7 And then over, or down the page at line 8 22: 9 "Q: And then so you -- your order to 10 Sergeant Korosec was to leave? 11 A: Yeah. Pull out." 12 Now, I take it you weren't familiar with 13 the fact that there was this conversation between 14 Sergeant Korosec and the Incident Commander John Carson 15 in which John Carson, as he testified, ordered that the 16 officers under -- then under the immediate direction of 17 Sergeant Korosec, withdraw? 18 A: No, sir, I wasn't directly aware of 19 that information. 20 Q: Okay. And I take it you take no 21 issue with that? 22 A: I take no issue the right decision 23 was reached. 24 Q: Yes. And that decision, it appears, 25 was John Carson's decision?
3181 A: Yes, sir, it does. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Roland. 5 Ms. Twohig...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Thank you, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KIM TWOHIG: 13 Q: Mr. Parkin, my name is Kim Twohig and 14 I'm here on behalf of the Province of Ontario. 15 During your examination-in-chief you were 16 taken to an excerpt from your notes, I believe, or from 17 Document 1000935 which was an e-mail that I believe you 18 sent to Nancy Mansell, perhaps? 19 Unfortunately, Mr. Commissioner, I haven't 20 had an opportunity to check my references here. 21 But you may recall that in that e-mail it 22 was stated that the MNR was concerned to a greater degree 23 than warranted about the possible takeover of the Park 24 and about winterization of the water system. 25 Do you recall that?
3191 A: I recall that. 2 Q: And Mr. Fox was to attend a meeting 3 to guide the issue. I think the word 'guide' was used in 4 that e-mail. 5 Do you recall that as well? 6 A: I do. 7 Q: I take it that Mr. Fox was going to 8 try to calm people down and get the MNR to back off the 9 issue, so to speak. 10 Would that be your assessment? 11 A: I don't know if he was attempting to 12 get them to back off. I know that he would, in his role, 13 be trying to provide them with confirmed, or the most 14 accurate information that he could share with them. 15 Q: Right. And at that time, he didn't 16 think that there was cause for the type of concern that 17 the MNR was expressing. 18 Would you agree with that? 19 A: Is that what he said? 20 Q: No. I'm just referring to the e-mail 21 where he says that the MNR was concerned to a greater 22 degree than warranted. So in other words, your 23 understanding was that he didn't think the MNR should be 24 as concerned as it was about the situation. 25 A: That would appear to be correct, yes.
3201 Q: And he did not think that the MNR 2 should be doing anything in response to the situation, as 3 it was then, at the beginning of August 1995. 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Now, I think you mentioned, in your 6 examination-in-chief, that you believe that Ron Fox 7 continued to act as a police officer in his role as First 8 Nations Advisor at the Ministry of the Solicitor General 9 and Correctional Services; is that correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Did you have any involvement in the 12 terms of his secondment to the Ministry from the OPP? 13 A: No. No, I didn't. 14 Q: Okay. When Mr. Fox had been with the 15 OPP, prior to his secondment, did he report to you? 16 A: No. Inspector Fox, at that time, was 17 never in a position that reported to me. 18 Q: Did you ever assign him work before 19 his secondment? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: So I take it you weren't aware of any 22 change in his reporting relationship after he was 23 seconded to the Ministry? 24 A: I would have been in some other part 25 of the Province, I believe, when he was seconded to that
3211 position. At some point in time I would have found out 2 that he was there, and I would have just had a working 3 knowledge of the fact that he was there. 4 Q: And you wouldn't have known about his 5 reporting relationship, either with the OPP or within the 6 Ministry; is that correct? 7 A: I believe I thought that he was there 8 to advise the Minister's office with respect to policing 9 issues, OPP policing issues across the Province, those 10 that were either newsworthy or of that level that they 11 would have to be apprised. 12 Q: We've heard evidence from the then 13 Deputy Solicitor General, that while Mr. Fox was on -- on 14 secondment to the Ministry, that he reported to her. 15 Would you have any reason to dispute that? 16 A: No, I wouldn't. 17 Q: And she also testified that, as far 18 as she was concerned, he was acting as a civil servant 19 during the period of his secondment. 20 Would you dispute that? 21 A: I wouldn't dispute that. 22 Q: You became aware that the Ministry of 23 Natural Resources was going to apply to the court for an 24 injunction, on or about September 8th, 1995; is that 25 correct?
3221 A: I would have been generally aware. 2 Q: And can I take it from your evidence 3 and from the tape we heard, that you were not entirely 4 supportive of the injunction? 5 A: I really didn't have any input in 6 what type of injunction, at the end of the day, the 7 Ministry of Natural Resources sought. 8 It -- there were a number of calls, as 9 we've heard, that apparently were made direct to the 10 command post, to Inspector Carson and Dale Linton, as it 11 turns out, that I wasn't aware of and only became aware 12 of when they advised me. 13 So as I say, I wasn't directly involved in 14 getting the injunction. It was just the OPP's position 15 that we would like to have an injunction. 16 Q: And were you aware that Inspector 17 Carson had been asked by Mr. McCabe whether he thought 18 there were grounds for an emergency injunction, and that 19 Inspector Carson had said he believed there were? 20 A: I don't believe I'm aware of that 21 conversation. 22 Q: Had you ever talked to Inspector 23 Carson about whether or not there were grounds for an 24 injunction, either emergency or otherwise? 25 A: No, I don't recall having any
3231 specific discussion with Inspector Carson with respect to 2 what was needed for the Ministry of Natural Resources 3 injunction. 4 Q: Did you ever talk to Mark Wright 5 about the fact that he was going to testify? 6 A: We -- there was discussion. I 7 believe I was involved in conversations where it was Mark 8 Wright and then it was -- at one point it was going to be 9 John Carson. 10 Q: And you had no objection to either of 11 them attending to give evidence in respect of the 12 injunction? 13 A: Well, no. The reality would be that 14 if we were -- if we, the OPP, were required to provide 15 evidence to support that injunction, then we would do so. 16 Q: And you didn't voice any objection to 17 that? That is, to the OPP supporting the injunction by 18 way of giving evidence? 19 A: I didn't, no, ma'am. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: I believe you said, on one of the 24 tapes, that you did not think the OPP should serve the 25 injunction documents on the occupiers of the Park, but
3241 that the OPP would assist the MNR in serving the 2 injunction; is that correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Do you recall that? How would you 5 propose that the OPP would assist the Ministry staff in 6 serving the injunction documents? 7 A: That would have been a decision that 8 we would have had to have made once we had the 9 injunction, saw what the terms in it were and decided -- 10 made a decision as to how we were going to go about that. 11 Q: So from -- from your answer, I take 12 it that you were thinking of serving an injunction order 13 after it had been obtained from the Court; is that 14 correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Right. So you weren't suggesting 17 that Ministry staff should have served the Application 18 for the injunction, before the matter was heard in Court? 19 A: If that had been required for the 20 type of injunction that they were obtaining, and there 21 was a need to serve documentation on the occupiers for 22 that purpose, I'm certain that we would have been in 23 discussions with either Peter Sturdy or Les Kobayashi on 24 how the best way we could go about that would be. 25 Q: Okay. I take it, then, that you
3251 weren't aware of a conversation between Mr. McCabe and 2 Inspector Carson in which Mr. McCabe asked Inspector 3 Carson to serve the application for the injunction on the 4 occupiers, if at all possible, on September 7th? 5 A: I believe I became aware of that in 6 one of the phone conversations. I certainly remember the 7 name Mr. McCabe being mentioned to me, but that might 8 have been Dale Linton telling me about Mr. McCabe's 9 desire. 10 Q: I take it, though, that you would not 11 have objected -- have objected to the OPP working with 12 the MNR to serve the injunction application on the 13 occupiers, if it had been possible and feasible, on the 14 night of September 6th or 7th? 15 A: Certainly, we would have had no 16 difficulty in assisting them but, certainly, how we 17 provided that assistance would depend on the 18 circumstances that we were faced with at the time. 19 Q: And on the evening of September 6th, 20 would you have insisted on MNR staff attending at the 21 Park to serve the documents? 22 A: I don't know that we would have been 23 in a position -- I'm not in a position to say whether we 24 would have done that on the 6th at this point in time, if 25 we had the injunction.
3261 If there -- if there were safety issues, 2 then, clearly, we would have to come up with a plan as to 3 how we were going to go about serving the notice. 4 Q: Okay. Because as I understand it, 5 the call was made by Mr. McCabe to the Incident Command 6 post asking if the OPP could serve the application for 7 the injunction, and this was on September 6th in the 8 evening. 9 And the papers were, in fact, faxed to the 10 Incident Command post. 11 Were you aware of that? 12 A: No, I don't recall being aware that 13 the papers were, in fact, faxed. I may have been, but I 14 don't recall that. 15 Q: Okay. And at the time, one of the 16 officers was asked to serve the application for the 17 injunction, but found that he was unable to do so given 18 the circumstances around the Park at that time. Do you 19 remember that? 20 Or was that the context in which the -- 21 the tape that we heard was played? 22 A: I believe the tape that was played 23 was a discussion where I was informed that this was a 24 possibility that these papers might be coming down. 25 Q: All right. But I take it the OPP was
3271 not refusing to serve the application for the injunction. 2 A: Well, if we were -- if we were named 3 in the injunction, but if it was directed to the Ministry 4 of Natural Resources, and they were charged with the 5 responsibility of serving it, clearly, given the fact we 6 were working with them through the situation, if they 7 felt that they required assistance, I'm sure we would 8 have provided it. I can't say to what extent. 9 Q: But the OPP weren't able to serve the 10 injunction application on the occupiers the night of 11 September 6th, were they? 12 A: I don't know that we ever tried. 13 Q: And the reason that you never tried 14 was because the situation was heating up on the ground; 15 isn't that right? 16 A: I wasn't on the ground, ma'am. 17 MS. KIM TWOHIG: It's very difficult 18 without having the tape, the transcript in front of me, 19 Mr. Commissioner. So I wonder if I might come back to 20 that, if necessary, tomorrow. But I'll try to complete 21 my cross-examination without it. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3281 CONTINUED BY MS. KIM TWOHIG: 2 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions 3 for now. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Ms. Twohig. The transcript will be on the website, 6 obviously, tonight. 7 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you have 9 something you need to ask in the morning, we'll do that. 10 MS. KIM TWOHIG: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sandler. 12 I did not ask you how long you estimated because I 13 assumed you would want to wait and see how everybody else 14 does. 15 Is that fair? 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: If there were no 17 cross-examination, I would have no questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, 19 right. That's fair. 20 Ms. McAleer, I think you said that Mr. 21 Downard was going to do the examination on behalf of Mr. 22 Harris. 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Yes, that's right. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he's not 25 here now?
3291 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: He isn't but he 2 anticipates that he's going to be an hour. So I don't 3 know if you want -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well if he 5 were here we could start, but he's not. Is he here? Is 6 he in the -- 7 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: No, he isn't sir. 8 I apologise. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 That's fine. And should we play around and see if we can 11 do -- Mr. Sulman, could you do your examination and 12 complete it in the time we have? 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Not in eight (8) 14 minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 Let's see how far you get. Will you -- 17 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: We'll go a bit 18 beyond that, but I think -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 20 can't hear you when you're back there. 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: That's right. My 22 voice isn't very strong. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Will you be 24 able to finish in the time we have or close to it? 25 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Not in the eight (8)
3301 minutes that we have. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How much 3 would you think? 4 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I think if you're 5 willing to go on a bit further than that, we can probably 6 complete it. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A bit 8 further meaning by -- 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Assuming that the 12 answers come quickly. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 Then let's try and do it because I want to try to keep 15 the ball rolling. 16 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: If I had all yeses, 17 sir, I think I could do it very quickly. 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 20 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Parkin. 21 A: Good afternoon, sir. 22 Q: And it may be quick because I'm going 23 to focus simply on August 11th, 1995 and ask you 24 questions on the meeting that you had on August 11th, 25 1995 with Mr. Linton, Mr. Carson. I won't use the
3311 titles, I think it would be easier if we just do it that 2 way, meaning no disrespect. 3 Wade Lacroix and Marcel Beaubien. So in 4 that regard, I'm going to simply look at very few 5 documents so I'm going to give you a little advance on 6 that. It will be Tab 13 of the Commission materials, Tab 7 14 of the Commission materials, and your handwritten 8 notes, but only from the handwritten notes on Friday llth 9 August, 1995. 10 And I have the Inquiry document number but 11 I don't have the -- if there is an Exhibit number. I 12 don't know whether that helps Mr. Parkin or not in any 13 event. 14 A: Tab 13 and 14? 15 Q: Tab 13 and 14 and your handwritten 16 notes of Friday, 11th August. 17 Do you have those in front of you also? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And the time period I'm looking at is 20 -- it starts at 0800 and runs to ten o'clock. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: Do you have those in front of you, 23 sir? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Okay. So you'll recall yesterday Mr.
3321 Worme asking you questions regarding this meeting, right? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And in the summer of 1995, if I can 4 take you back there for a moment, you were -- you had 5 responsibilities for the Ipperwash area, Pinery park, 6 Port Franks, other areas of course, too, but if we could 7 focus on those areas. 8 A: In a -- in an overall capacity, yes. 9 Q: Yes. And in your capacity and having 10 responsibility for those areas, you were receiving 11 information from various sources to keep -- to keep a 12 handle on what was going on in those areas, correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And you were aware from those sources 15 that cottagers in the area were concerned about 16 activities spreading from the Ipperwash Army base to 17 their properties, correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. And I'm not asking you for 20 details of that, sir, just -- you're generally aware of 21 that; correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you received information from 24 various sources that some of the cottagers were 25 frightened as a result of the activities going on at the
3331 Army base at that period, correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And you were informed from various 4 sources that cottagers were frustrated by the activities 5 at the Army base and they were also frustrated from their 6 perception of the OPP's response to what was going on 7 there; correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And you had heard about the 10 cottagers' fears and frustrations before the meeting of 11 August 11th with MPP Beaubien, correct? 12 A: I believe I would have. 13 Q: Sure. And from the various sources 14 that you had in the community; correct? 15 A: I might not have got the information 16 direct from people in the community. It might have come 17 to me through Inspector Carson, different officers. 18 Q: Certainly. Citizens in the area, if 19 I can be more correct, citizens in the area and officers 20 in the area, were the sources of your information, 21 correct? 22 A: I would agree. 23 Q: And so when you heard from MPP 24 Beaubien about the frustrations of the cottagers and the 25 concerns that they may take matters into their own hands
3341 as a result of their frustrations or concerns, this came 2 as no surprise to you. 3 He was merely confirming what you'd heard 4 from other sources, right? 5 A: He was expressing his concerns to me 6 which were along those lines. 7 Q: Well, I understand from your notes 8 that he was expressing the concerns of the cottagers. 9 Am I incorrect in that? 10 A: You're not incorrect, sir, but I 11 believe he was certainly expressing concern with respect 12 to the West Ipperwash beach cottagers. 13 Q: In that area? 14 A: Yes, in that area. 15 Q: Okay, very good. And while at this 16 meeting on August 11th, Mr. Beaubien was expressing the 17 concerns of the West Ipperwash beach cottagers, he wasn't 18 expressing any personal concerns or frustrations about 19 the OPP policing in this area? 20 A: I can't recall at that meeting him 21 specifically saying that he wasn't happy. 22 Q: Well, maybe if you could turn up your 23 -- your own e-mail to Nancy Mansell, copied to Ron Fox, 24 which is Tab 14. 25 And although it's -- do you have that in
3351 front of you, sir? 2 A: Yes, I do. 3 Q: Take -- 4 A: This -- 5 Q: Take a quick look at that, the second 6 paragraph. 7 A: This is the one that I have 8 difficulty seeing up here. 9 Q: Well, that's good. I'm having the 10 same problem with this one. Maybe it'll come up bigger. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 14. 15 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Tab 14. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: 18 Q: This is the -- as you can see Tab 14, 19 sir? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It's -- it's related to the August 22 11th meeting as it says but it's your e-mail sent on 23 August 14th, okay? 24 And I want to refer you to the, what 25 appears to be the second paragraph, first line?
3361 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And my question to you had been that 5 Mr. Beaubien or the suggestion I put to you was that Mr. 6 Beaubien didn't express any personal concerns about the 7 OPP policing in the area, rather he was expressing the 8 concerns, frustrations of the cottagers. 9 And isn't that exactly what you said on 10 August 14th to Nancy Mansell and Ron Fox in your e-mail? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Okay. And that's what -- that's what 13 I wanted to understand. Okay? 14 And he didn't, that is Mr. Beaubien at 15 that meeting didn't tell you, Lacroix, Linton, or Carson 16 how to carry out your sworn duties did he? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: And you didn't get the impression and 19 he didn't tell you directly that you -- let's -- let's go 20 to impressions. 21 He didn't give you the impression that he 22 was attempting to influence or tell you, Carson, Lacroix, 23 or Linton how to do your sworn duties at that meeting 24 either did he? 25 A: No, sir.
3371 Q: And back to what we have on the board 2 here, your e-mail, it says his concern was more about the 3 frustration of the cottagers and what they might do, 4 correct? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Now, just so we can -- and the 7 reason I'm doing this is I want this to be clarified on 8 the record. 9 Your notes, if you could turn those up 10 again, August 11th? 11 A: Yes, sir? 12 Q: When you write notes and Mr. Worme 13 did ask you about your methodology of writing notes and I 14 take it that they aren't verbatim, they're a short form 15 of -- of reminders to you of what occurred, correct? 16 A: Very much so. They consist of 17 paraphrasing and point or bullet notes just to capture 18 the gist of what may have transpired. 19 Q: Okay. And at ten o'clock, I just 20 want you to look at that note, it says: 21 "Met with Lambton area MPP Marcel 22 Beaubien. He understood OPP position 23 relating to Ipperwash Base." 24 It says: 25 "Concerned about Park and cottage
3381 owners - very frustrated. May do 2 something." 3 And I suggest to you, sir, that when you 4 look at the note and then you look at your...and those 5 are short -- short form, but when you look at the e-mail 6 that you sent it's clear that the "who" that's referred 7 to, the "who" may do something is in fact the cottagers, 8 not Mr. Beaubien? 9 A: Correct, sir. 10 Q: Okay. And other than Mr. Beaubien 11 expressing his frustration that he wasn't getting any 12 direction from Queen's Park and his telling you what he 13 was hearing is from his constituents that you already 14 knew from other sources in any event, you didn't leave 15 the August 11th meeting feeling any pressure from Mr. 16 Beaubien on how you or the other officers should carry 17 out your policing operations in the Ipperwash area did 18 you? 19 A: That's correct, sir. 20 Q: And Mr. Beaubien indicated that he 21 would be communicating with the Solicitor General, the 22 Attorney General, and the MNR. 23 You told us that yesterday, right? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And was it your impression that he
3391 told you he would be talking to these ministries because 2 on August 11th he didn't think those Queen's Park 3 ministries really understood the seriousness of the 4 situation at Ipperwash. 5 Is that correct? 6 A: I don't know if it was the fact that 7 they perhaps didn't understand it; that may have been 8 part of it. I got the sense that he was frustrated that 9 he was out there and was seeking some assistance. 10 Q: And he wasn't getting it from Queen's 11 Park? 12 A: That seemed to be his concern. 13 Q: Okay. And -- but when Mr. Beaubien 14 said to you he'd be communicating with MNR, the Solicitor 15 General, and the Attorney General you didn't think he was 16 telling you that to somehow impress you or pressure you 17 or your fellow officers into doing something that you 18 wouldn't otherwise do; did you? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you 21 told Mr. Worme yesterday that it was your understanding 22 that Beaubien wanted some direction on the government 23 position in his role in the situation, not the OPP role, 24 right? 25 A: Well, I knew that I didn't need any
3401 direction. Those -- that letter that he put together, 2 that was his terminology, his wording and he clearly did 3 say that he wanted to speak to those people within his 4 areas so it wasn't for my good. 5 Q: Right. And when you -- you left that 6 meeting of August 11th you weren't looking for any 7 direction from Queen's Park in any event? 8 A: None at all, sir. 9 Q: Right. Now, at this August 11th 10 meeting I take it that the OPP present, the senior 11 officers that were there and the -- and the Staff 12 Sergeant and Mr. Beaubien had no discussion whatsoever on 13 tactics or strategy that the OPP would or should employ 14 if the Army Base expansion or occupation expanded to the 15 Provincial Park? 16 A: Absolutely not. 17 Q: And Mr. Beaubien certainly gave you 18 no instructions from the Provincial Government on August 19 11th on how the OPP should carry out its activities did 20 he? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: And you had no further meetings with 23 Mr. Beaubien or any communications with Mr. Beaubien 24 between the August 11th meeting and September 6th, 1995? 25 A: Not that I recall, sir.
3411 Q: Okay. And none that you've recorded 2 anywhere that we have. 3 Is that correct, sir? 4 A: I don't believe so, sir, and I've 5 reviewed my notes before so I'm -- I'm not aware of a 6 meeting. 7 Q: And you had no discussions with Mr. 8 Beaubien on September 6th, 1995, the day of this 9 incident? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Thank you, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Sulman. I think with that we'll call it a day. 14 We'll adjourn for today and reconvene tomorrow morning at 15 nine o'clock. Thank you very much. 16 17 (WITNESS RETIRES) 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, February the 8th at 21 9:00 a.m. 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 4:36 p.m. 24 25
3421 2 3 4 Certified Correct, 5 6 7 8 9 10 ___________________ 11 Carol Geehan, Ms. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25