11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 7th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodie-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) (np) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) (np) 20 Melissa Panjer ) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 CAROLYN GEORGE, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 18 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 23 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 49 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 59 11 12 HENDRIKUS WILHELMUS VEENS, Sworn 13 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 65 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 86 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 88 16 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 92 17 18 JEREMIAH JAMES GEORGE, Sworn 19 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 20 21 Certificate of Transcript 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-156 8"x11" "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 63 4 September 20/95, Marked by Witness 5 Ms. Carolyn George, Feb 07/05 6 P-157 Audio Disk of Document 5000215, 76 7 9-1-1 Call from Hank Veens Sept 8 6/7/1995 9 P-158 Document 5000215 Transcript of 9-1-1 77 10 Call from Hank Veeks Pages 11 2662-2673, Sept 6/7, 1995, 12 Pages 12 P-159 Document 1002953, 9-1-1 Call from 83 13 Hank Veens September 06/95 14 23:26:49 P.m. Received by 15 Forest/Bosanquet 16 P-160 Document 1002002 Emergency Call 84 17 Narratives Between Hank Veens 18 and Ambulance Dispatch September 06/95 19 Notified 23:31:03 Hrs 20 Cancelled 23:55:59 Hours. 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:31 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. Before we begin Mr. Ross wanted to say a 8 few comments. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning, Mr. Ross. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Good morning, 12 Commissioner. This, sir, relates to the evidence -- a 13 portion of the evidence that was given by Glenn George. 14 At one (1) stage I was speaking with him about the 15 occupation on the range and my effort was to address 16 whether or not it did constitute a trespass. 17 And I made reference to -- I might have 18 said an agreement, it should have been correspondence 19 from the Minister of Indian Affairs to Chief Tom 20 Bressette which was forwarded by Chief Tom Bressette to 21 Carl George. 22 And you'll recall that Carl George from 23 time to time carried the designation chief of Stoney 24 Point. And it is a letter from the Minister dated August 25 19, 1993 which referred to and, I will just read the one
81 (1) sent -- two (2) sentences. 2 "I have instructed my official to 3 discuss this with your directly. The 4 proposed site would be a two hundred 5 (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre 6 parcel in the extreme southeast corner 7 of Camp Ipperwash." 8 And I just wanted to confirm that there 9 was a communication so in the event that there was a 10 trespass, it would raise the questions whether or not the 11 trespass had been ameliorated. 12 Now, I do not think that is going to be 13 necessary to recall Glenn George for the purpose of these 14 documents. They can go in through Carl George or through 15 Chief Bressette. And I was not sure -- I -- I was under 16 the impression that I may have handing them off to 17 Counsel -- Commission Counsel, I notice the original was 18 still in my file and decided to draw it to you attention. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much, Mr. Ross. Mr. Millar, how do we get these 21 documents into the record? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we'll deal with 23 it but the -- the point from our perspective is that we 24 did not get these documents from Mr. Ross. And perhaps 25 Mr. Ross will now give us the documents.
91 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning, Ms. Vella. Good morning, Ms. George. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning, Ms. George. 9 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, Ms. 11 George, may I remind you that you are still under oath? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 14 15 CAROLYN GEORGE, Resumed: 16 17 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: How much time do you spend at the 19 Army Camp today? 20 A: Today? 21 Q: On average. 22 A: I live there. So most of the time. 23 Q: And how do you feel about the police 24 today? 25 A: I -- I'm still -- I don't trust them.
101 I -- I don't like it when I feel like they're still 2 following me down the road and stuff like that. 3 Q: Do you think that that trust will 4 ever return? 5 A: I -- I really can't say. Because, 6 you know, I -- I thought when things were, you know, 7 like, done in '95 I thought the police would leave me 8 alone. But I felt that they have still been chasing me 9 and harassing me and my family. Even to this year when I 10 was still putting in complaints about them. 11 Q: And when you say "complaints," is 12 this drawing it to the attention of the requisite 13 individuals at the community? 14 A: Well, okay, this is this year. This 15 is 2005 but when the Commission started last year, I 16 complained to my lawyer then. 17 Q: All right. And will you just give -- 18 tell us what types of activities that you feel that 19 you've been subjected to with respect to the police? 20 A: You mean like last year when -- 21 Q: Last -- in the last year or so. 22 A: I thought they were, you know, like 23 stopping my kids unnecessarily. There was three (3) of 24 them stopped within one (1) month. No real particular 25 reason. They never got charged with anything. I got
111 pulled over too. 2 Q: All right. And were -- were you as a 3 result of being pulled over, were you charged at all? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you know what the reason for 6 pulling you over was? 7 A: Well, I -- I became angry and I 8 jumped out of the vehicle and I went over and -- and then 9 the police says, I didn't know that was you. I didn't 10 know that was you. 11 Q: Okay, all right. And did anything 12 else come of that then? Or were you allowed to proceed? 13 A: Yeah. They just told me to get back 14 in your vehicle and -- and I left, but I still feel like 15 that was unnecessary, too. 16 Q: All right. How have the events of 17 September the 6th and 7 affected you? 18 A: In particular the police, you mean? 19 Like -- like, I'm afraid that they would shoot me any 20 time, too. I mean, like, there was no reason that, you 21 know, like, that they shot my brother. And what's to 22 stop them from even shooting me? 23 I was very afraid of them going down the 24 road alone. I was -- after a number of years, I did try 25 to start doing things away from the Army Camp. You know,
121 like, just even going visiting. You know, like, driving 2 by myself but I'd always see a lot of cops and it just 3 made me nervous. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And then even to go over to my 6 daughter's for barbecues and stuff, the police would ride 7 up and down the road and it was like you couldn't go 8 anywhere without them just being right there, and... 9 Q: So it's fair to say that you're -- 10 you're very, very alert to the presence of the police? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And how has the -- how has the loss 13 of your brother affected you and your family? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Dudley was like the -- a mainstay for 18 us, to like, during my divorce and my dad dying at -- 19 like that occurred the same time and Dudley would be like 20 there for us and someone to go to, someone to talk to, 21 someone for my kids to go to. 22 And any time we were feeling down, he 23 could always make us feel a lot better. I mean, help us 24 see the situation in a different way that we would be 25 laughing instead of feeling bad.
131 Q: Did you and your brother, Pierre, 2 attempt to -- to get answers with respect to the -- what 3 happened to your brother, Dudley? 4 A: Pierre was doing a lot more than me 5 because I was so much more upset by the police and I felt 6 a lot safer staying at Stoney Point. 7 Q: Did you -- were you part of the -- 8 were you one (1) of the persons asking for an Inquiry? 9 A: Pierre was asking on my behalf, also. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Could I say something to that -- the 15 last time we were here, I was saying how I became too 16 nervous to even stay at my job -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- too afraid to be travelling at 19 night by myself. And it was -- like I had managed to 20 work til April but then I just couldn't handle it anymore 21 and then not too longer after that, the -- the Mennonites 22 came to our community. 23 Well, they had been there before and they 24 knew a lot of the people and they brought a young student 25 to stay with us. And I felt a lot better having him
141 there, because I knew if anything happened in -- anything 2 happened to him that the -- the police would have to look 3 into that. 4 Where, and like -- when it was my brother 5 shot, they -- well, there just really looking at it now. 6 Q: And how did you come to meet the -- 7 the Mennonite community? 8 A: I believe -- I don't know whether I 9 first met them when we lived on the ranges. But I know 10 the other guys knew them and then when they came to -- 11 they came after Dudley was shot and they helped out in 12 our community with a lot of donations. And I was working 13 on a quilt, too, a fundraise too. So a lot of the women 14 came and helped me sew on the quilt. 15 And did raise some money for the community 16 with that and -- but it was the student, John, being 17 there. I felt a lot safer with him there, like, he was 18 right next door to me. And he just helped -- helped a 19 lot to -- and the women, too, to provide me with some 20 acceptance and -- because I was being treated very badly 21 by a lot of people when I did leave Stoney Point. 22 Q: And how is it that they came to come 23 into your community? Were they invited or did they just 24 -- they come and ask if they could help? 25 A: I know they were already -- when the
151 guys want to -- went on the walk to Ottawa, they camped 2 out at Rick's place along the way. 3 Q: So in other words, they were already 4 people whom members of your community trusted? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- and so they're -- I take it 7 that their continued support was welcomed in your 8 community? 9 A: Very much. They're still there today 10 for me, too. 11 Q: And in retrospect, do you think that 12 the occupants of the Park would have been inclined to 13 talk with police if there had been a trusted intermediary 14 to facilitate those discussions? 15 A: That probably could have happened. 16 Q: What are your current objectives and 17 hopes for your community at Aazhoodena? 18 A: I'd like to see it up and running 19 like any other reserve in Canada. We should be able to 20 have our own school, library, gas stations, stores there, 21 programs, all that any other reserve has. 22 Q: Do you see yourself ever leaving this 23 present community? 24 A: No. I feel safe there. Well, even 25 after this here, like, I noticed myself -- I would go
161 into my house and I'd lock the door. It was just safety 2 measure. It wouldn't matter if there was somebody still 3 outside behind me. They'd have to knock to get back in. 4 I -- so I know that it was bothering me. 5 Q: What do you think should now happen 6 with the Army Camp Base and the Park? 7 A: You mean the land that it should -- I 8 would like it see returned to the native people that were 9 from there. I feel all the people that had been living 10 there, there was a huge part of their lives taken away. 11 Something that can never, ever be given 12 back and there's going to have to be a lot of rebuilding, 13 a lot of healing. And I feel also, you know, like, 14 Kettle Point was also put out because they didn't really 15 want the people over there, either. 16 So it was -- if we got our own land back, 17 Kettle Point can have their own land back and then 18 everybody could be happy. 19 Q: Do you have any recommendations to 20 share with the Commissioner with respect to how to 21 prevent similar acts of violence in the future? 22 A: I think there needs to be a lot more 23 education of the people, education that starts back in 24 the younger grades. And there should be more what I felt 25 was -- Canada is now a multi-cultural country and a lot
171 of the books don't reflect any of the multi-culturalism. 2 Like, there isn't a lot in there about Natives but 3 there's -- there should be a lot more. 4 And all the new people coming into the 5 country if they're citizens of here there should be 6 something about their cultures and stuff like that. So 7 there would be a greater understanding amongst the 8 different cultures. And if there was more understanding 9 there might -- there wouldn't be so much fear of other 10 people. 11 A lot of it is you fear what you don't 12 understand or know. And I also know that the -- the 13 Mennonites now they have a peace team that are willing to 14 go in between any protests or things like that. I know I 15 certainly welcome them there where they're willing to put 16 their lives there for you so that there wouldn't be 17 anymore violence. 18 And I think the -- the Federal Government 19 should be answering for a lot of this because it was them 20 who created this in the first place by not giving back 21 the land to the right people when they were supposed to. 22 We wouldn't be sitting here now if they would have done 23 what they were supposed to do over fifty (50) years ago. 24 And there's a lot of other land claims out 25 there too that the -- the government is just not dealing
181 with. And -- and that needs to be dealt with. And I 2 think too there should be more things towards Natives; 3 there should be more statues, more programs, museums so 4 that Native people have their rightful place in this 5 country. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 7 Those are my questions, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. Which parties intend to cross-examine Ms. 10 George? Mr. Rosenthal...? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Five (5) to ten 12 (10) minutes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 McGilp...? 15 MR. IAN MCGILP: About twenty (20) 16 minutes, twenty-five (25) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 18 O'Marra...? 19 MR. AL O'MARRA: Five (5) to ten (10) 20 minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 22 begin. Mr. Rosenthal...? 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Good morning.
191 A: Good morning. 2 Q: I think you know that my name is 3 Peter Rosenthal and I'm representing some of your 4 relatives. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Under the name Aazhoodena and George 7 Family Group. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I just have a couple of questions to 10 ask you because your testimony has covered most of the 11 important points. You -- you mentioned briefly the other 12 day when you were testifying that you were asked by Tom 13 Bressette at one (1) point why you were there in Stoney 14 Point. And you told him, That's because that's where I'm 15 from. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: What did you feel about the general 18 way that Chief Tom Bressette dealt with the occupation of 19 the Army Camp and then of the Park? 20 A: I didn't have a lot of knowledge of 21 what he was doing with a lot of the things that were 22 going on there. 23 Q: I see, okay. Thank you. Now you 24 testified that you saw Dudley just before the 25 confrontation on the night of September 6th, I believe;
201 is that right? 2 And at that time -- and then you saw him 3 go towards the area where the confrontation was taking 4 place, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And as you saw him at that -- if you 7 could take your mind back to that moment, did he have 8 anything in his hands at all, Dudley? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And as he ran towards the area where 11 the confrontation took place, did you see him stop to 12 pick up anything? 13 A: No. No. 14 Q: And in particular, there weren't any 15 guns around at that point that you saw, certainly, is 16 that right? 17 A: No, no guns. It was supposed to be a 18 peaceful occupation and we didn't want any guns there. 19 Q: Yes. It was supposed to be a 20 peaceful occupation and as far as the occupiers were 21 concerned it remained that way? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, then just skipping ahead to when 24 you and Pierre and Dudley and JT were en route to 25 hospital, you told us how you stopped at a farmhouse to
211 ask for an ambulance to be called. 2 And then you decided that since nothing 3 was happening you would try and make it towards the 4 hospital. 5 As you went towards the hospital at that 6 point, were you hoping that an ambulance would come to 7 meet you so...? 8 A: I figured it would be coming right 9 towards us, that it would be coming out of Strathroy and 10 that we would probably meet it right -- right along that 11 ways there. 12 Q: So -- and that's what you hoped would 13 happen? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And just skipping ahead to something 16 you told us a little bit this morning, you told us when 17 John moved close to you, you felt safer -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you said something to the effect 20 that if anything happened to him, the police would 21 investigate, as opposed to the situation with Dudley. 22 And do you recall your saying that a few 23 minutes ago? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now I wanted to explore why you were
221 meaning that distinction. Is that because you feel that 2 the police didn't give proper respect to Dudley as a 3 First Nations person as opposed to John not being a First 4 Nations person? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So you're reflecting your thought 7 that a Caucasian person who was mistreated by police 8 would be a much more serious issue to everyone than a 9 First Nations person being mistreated? 10 A: Yes. Also the fact that he had been 11 placed in there by the Mennonite church. 12 Q: And that would have, again, given 13 some comfort? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you very much for your 16 testimony. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Mr. McGilp...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. IAN McGILP: Good morning, 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 morning.
231 MR. IAN McGILP: Good morning, Mrs. 2 Bressette. Or, Ms. George, I'm sorry. 3 Commissioner, you'll notice that Ms. 4 Newell just will not leave me alone as I'm preparing. 5 She always has one (1) more question for me at the last 6 moment. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN McGILP: 9 Q: Ms. George, my name is Ian McGilp and 10 I'm one of the lawyers who represent the OPP Association. 11 You told us on Thursday, I believe, that 12 you moved onto the rifle ranges in June or July of 1993 13 and that you stayed there until October, approximately 14 October of that year. Is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: I was wondering, Ms. George, did you 17 participate in any -- in any elections for councillors or 18 chief -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- while you were there? Were you 21 aware of any elections being held during that year, that 22 summer? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You weren't aware of there being -- 25 A: No.
241 Q: -- any elections? And do you -- was 2 -- was there in place, as far as you understood, a -- a 3 chief and council during 1993 in the summer? 4 A: I wasn't aware of it. I was mostly 5 just cooking. 6 Q: You weren't aware of that at all? 7 And I take it -- is -- would it be the same in 1994 and 8 1995 that you told us that you were at the -- at 9 Aazhoodena less often during '94 and '95? 10 Were you aware of there being elections 11 held for Chief or Councillor during those years? 12 A: No, mostly I was just going to visit 13 Dudley between '94 and '95. I wasn't participating in 14 the elections or that, I was mainly there to visit 15 Dudley. 16 Q: I see and did other people that you 17 knew who were on -- in the -- in the former Army Camp, 18 did they tell you about elections being held in those 19 years or were you aware of there being elections? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Thank you, Ms. Bressette -- I'm 22 sorry, I keep calling you that, Ms. George. I've been 23 reading too many notes. 24 On Thursday, Commission Counsel, Ms. 25 Vella, asked you, you may remember, whether on September
251 the 4th you observed any altercation between the police 2 and occupiers. And you said that at one (1) point that 3 there were some -- you saw some of the people, the 4 occupiers, standing on top of a little hill. 5 And you said that you knew something was 6 going on, but you couldn't see what it was because you 7 were too short. Do you remember that evidence? 8 A: You got a little more there? 9 Q: I'm sorry, I can take you to it. You 10 were asked the following question: 11 "Did you observe any altercations as 12 between any members of the police force 13 and any of the occupants?" 14 And I should point out we're talking about 15 September the 4th here. 16 "A: Oh, no, I'm -- there was people 17 around. I -- I know something was 18 going on, but I couldn't see it because 19 I'm short. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: The road was there and then there 22 was a little hill and the people 23 standing on top of that. 24 Q: So you could see something 25 happening, but you couldn't see it very
261 well. 2 A: I knew something was happening, 3 but I don't know, I couldn't see what 4 it was." 5 Does that refresh your memory? 6 A: Yes. The roads down there are all 7 paved and even and then where you got the edges of the -- 8 the ground is kind of built up, so it's a little bit 9 higher. And I was on the road so I was really at a 10 disadvantage to see. 11 Q: At a disadvantage. I understand. 12 Could -- could you indicate on the map for the benefit of 13 the Commissioner, please, where you saw the people 14 standing on the little hill that day? 15 A: It's not on that map. 16 Q: It's not on that map at all? 17 A: No. It was on that side of the Park 18 store. 19 Q: And -- but, as I understood it and as 20 I read it to you, you were asked -- the question you were 21 asked about -- was about whether there was an altercation 22 or an incident involving the police and the occupiers. 23 Now, the police would have been on the 24 outside of the Park? 25 A: No, I believe that was when the --
271 when the -- that was when the police were escorting that 2 last RV out of there. 3 Q: I see, I'm sorry. I should have 4 asked you, Ms. George, do you recall at all what time of 5 the day on September the 4th that was? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was it -- was it quickly after the 8 time that the people first entered the Park or was it 9 later in the evening? You -- you don't recall? 10 A: I don't check a watch all of the 11 time. 12 Q: I understand. But in any event, 13 you're telling us you believe now that the incident you 14 were referring to last Thursday occurred at the point 15 when the police were still escorting the last RV out of 16 the Camp? 17 A: No, it would have been after the RV 18 was out of there. 19 Q: Out of there? And do you recall 20 whether it was shortly after that time or was it, 21 perhaps, an hour or two (2) hours later? 22 A: It could have been, like I said, I 23 had drove -- went and got my other car, drove in, the 24 police let me in and this would have been -- I don't know 25 whether I sat around there for a while then or how long
281 it was. Really, I don't know. 2 Q: So if I can just at least understand 3 the sequence correctly, I think you told us that you 4 first entered the Park from the beach side; you came up 5 from the beach into the area by the Park store; is that 6 correct? When you first entered the Park that day? 7 A: No, I was over -- way over, where you 8 got -- this is the west side of the Park. I'm talking 9 about the east side of the Park where I walked just on 10 the beach and then I was in the Park. 11 Q: And then you were in the Park, and -- 12 I see. And then at some point after that, you got in 13 your car and drove back up to the built up area; is that 14 correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then did you stay there for a 17 length of time or did you turn around and go back to the 18 Park immediately? 19 A: Yeah. I mean yes, I got in the car 20 and I drove down the Highway, the road -- the Army Camp 21 Road -- 22 Q: Army Camp Road -- 23 A: -- and I went to the Park and I drove 24 in and the cops all let me in and everything, and I don't 25 know how long I stayed in there at that time or how long
291 the police were there or anything. 2 Q: But it was after you returned to the 3 Park in your car and the police let you in, it was after 4 that that you were aware of some incident between -- 5 involving the police and the occupiers; is that correct? 6 A: There was a big group of people so I 7 -- I assumed there was something going on. 8 Q: Going on. And you're telling us 9 today that that group of people that you're referring to 10 was somewhere on -- inside the Park in an area that is 11 not shown on the map behind you; is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. You also told 14 us on Thursday that on September the 6th, which was the 15 day of the confrontation, that you had come to the Park 16 that evening to see if people were hungry; that shortly 17 after your arrival there, Mr. Robert Isaac told you that 18 there was something going on and we needed more guys down 19 there and then at that point you volunteered to go back 20 up to the built up area to look for help. 21 Is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you also said that before you 24 left, you saw something, a light I think it was you said, 25 on a little hill?
301 A: Yes. 2 Q: Could you mark -- could you show -- 3 indicate on the map for us, please, where you saw that 4 light? 5 A: It would have been right up in there. 6 Q: Right in that area there? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Ms. George, do you still have the 9 paper copy of that map. I forget the exhibit number. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-23. 11 MR. IAN McGILP: P-23. No, I think 12 that's -- 13 THE WITNESS: No. This wouldn't do -- 14 well -- 15 MR. IAN McGILP: Just one second, Ms. 16 George. 17 THE WITNESS: It's got the -- 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 20 Q: We'll get you the exhibit. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I think I marked it on that map. 25 Q: I thought you marked some things on
311 that map, but my reading of the transcript, you did not 2 mark that. Just a second, Ms. George. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Ms. George, Ms. Vella is giving you a 7 copy -- a smaller copy of the map that is behind you on 8 the board. And could you just mark on that map, please, 9 with a -- perhaps a letter "H" -- the area that you just 10 indicated with the laser marker on the large screen? 11 A: An "H"? 12 Q: An "H" would do fine, yes, for hill. 13 A: Oh, okay. 14 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now you -- 15 when you were interviewed by the SIU, you told the 16 investigators that you saw two (2) guys and the words you 17 used were, Up on the shelf, that you said that you saw 18 the police were coming in their formation, arm to arm, 19 and that you saw two (2) individuals up on the shelf; 20 that one (1) of them had a gun and that the other one had 21 a flashlight. 22 Do you remember telling the SIU that or 23 would you -- would it help you if I read you that segment 24 of your interview with the SIU? 25 A: I seen two (2) guys but only one (1)
321 light. 2 Q: But one (1) light and did you see the 3 other individual had a gun? 4 A: I assumed it was a gun. 5 Q: Thank you. And is that -- so that's 6 an accurate des -- what you told the SIU then, that you 7 saw two (2) individuals, one with a light and the other 8 you assumed had a gun. 9 That was an accurate description of what 10 you saw on that hill that you've marked there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Thank you. Could you see what the 13 individuals were wearing? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No. Now moving on, Ms. George, when 16 you went back to the -- after you saw the individuals on 17 the hill, you went back up to the main gate at the Army 18 Camp or the former Army Camp; is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that you -- and when you got 21 there you told us that you asked people there where 22 everyone was. 23 Now the first question I have, were there 24 very many people at the main gate when you arrived that 25 evening?
331 A: Pierre, Edie and Marlene sitting on 2 the curb and that's about all I seen. 3 Q: So there was only about three (3) 4 individuals at the gate at that time? 5 A: That I noticed. 6 Q: And do you recall who you asked where 7 everyone was? Do you remember who you asked that 8 question to? 9 A: It was probably Pierre. 10 Q: Pierre. And do you remember what he 11 told you? 12 A: Probably just that he didn't know 13 where anybody was. 14 Q: You don't recall him telling you that 15 he knew people were here or there; he didn't seem to 16 know, thank you. Now you said that, if I have it 17 correct, you said that you waited after you asked Pierre 18 what or where everybody was, you got back into the car 19 with Marlene Cloud I believe and that you saw some lights 20 coming from the east. And that you waited to see what 21 those lights were and it turned out to be the dump truck. 22 And that the dump truck headed down 23 towards the Park and then you followed it at a distance 24 in -- in the direction of the Park; do I have that 25 correct?
341 A: Yes. 2 Q: Thank you. I wanted to ask you were 3 there any people in the back of the truck as it -- as you 4 saw it go past you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Were there any -- could you see how 7 many people were in the front of the truck, in the cab of 8 the truck? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So you wouldn't be able to tell us 11 who was in that truck at all? You couldn't -- could you 12 see who was driving it? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And you couldn't see if there was 15 anybody else in the truck at all? 16 A: No. Dump trucks are big and you get 17 out of their way. 18 Q: I appreciate that. Was there anybody 19 else -- was the dump truck the only vehicle -- the only 20 individual or individuals that went down to the Park 21 ahead of you that night or was there anybody else? 22 A: That's all that I noticed. 23 Q: That's all. So no one other than the 24 dump truck responded to your search or your quest for 25 help that night?
351 A: Well, I didn't even find them. 2 Q: You didn't even find them; that's 3 quite correct. Do you know where the dump truck had 4 been? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Thank you. I'm wondering, I 7 understand from your evidence on Thursday that by the 8 time you arrived back up to the gate, the main gate of 9 the -- of the former Army Camp, that Mr. Dudley George 10 had already been transferred from the "OPP Who" car into 11 your brother Pierre's car, is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you know why the decision was made 14 to transfer him from the "OPP Who" car to your brother's 15 car? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Was your brother's car a good 18 vehicle? I understand it was not licensed. 19 Do you know if it was in good repair? 20 A: They had Dudley in there so I assumed 21 they figured it was a good enough car to get us there. 22 Q: To get you there. Thank you, Ms. 23 George. Now I just have some questions about your arrest 24 at the Strathroy Hospital that night. 25 You told us on Thursday I believe, that
361 you arrived at the hospital, that you hopped out of the 2 car and were attempting to get Dudley George out of the 3 rear seat of the car when the police grabbed you from 4 behind by both your arms; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you also said, I believe, that 7 you were struggling with the police officers, because you 8 wanted to help get Dudley out of the car and get someone 9 to look at him; is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when you were interviewed by the 12 SIU investigators, you told them also that the police 13 grabbed you by both arms as you were trying to help 14 Dudley out of the car and you told them that you were 15 trying to get away, because you wanted to see how your 16 brother was doing. 17 Now I take it you meant by that, that what 18 you were trying to do is get your arms free from the 19 police officers who had grabbed you; is that right? 20 A: Yes. I wanted to see how my brother 21 was. 22 Q: I understand. I anticipate we're 23 going to hear evidence from the police officers that 24 arrested you that night, that you were a pretty good 25 match for them and that they, in fact, had considerable
371 difficulty -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I've 3 seen this lady. I don't think she can come up with a 4 hundred and fifty (150) pounds. Now, if he wants to say 5 that this lady is going to be a good match for two (2) 6 police officers, he better tell us about them. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 8 at the moment you're saying that that's what you expect 9 the evidence will be? 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 12 Q: I anticipate the evidence will be 13 that these two (2) police officers, two (2) female police 14 officers, one (1) of whom -- each of whom had you grabbed 15 by one (1) arm, had considerable difficulty pinning your 16 arms behind your back in order to place the handcuffs on 17 you. 18 A: I wanted to see my brother. 19 Q: I understand -- I understand that. 20 I'm just asking you if you -- 21 A: I wanted to know how he was. 22 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. 23 A: Wouldn't you at least try to do that 24 if your brother was shot? 25 Q: Well, I cannot answer that question,
381 Ms. George, but I do understand. 2 A: Well, just hope it never, ever 3 happens to you, then. 4 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. I believe you 5 said on Thursday that you can't recall whether you were 6 advised of your rights -- of your legal rights, when you 7 were arrested at the hospital; is that correct? 8 A: I was very worried about my brother. 9 I -- I might -- may have said something in my interviews, 10 I -- 11 Q: You can't -- 12 A: My main concern was finding out how 13 my brother was. 14 Q: I understand that. And I'm just 15 asking you if it's correct, my recollection is correct 16 that you said that you can't recall whether the police 17 officers read you your legal rights at that instance; is 18 that right? I can take you to your evidence, if that 19 will help you. 20 Question, and this is at -- for the 21 record, it's at Page 170 of Thursday's evidence, and the 22 question is: 23 "Did they advise you anything else with 24 respect to your rights, for example? 25 A: I don't recall."
391 Does that -- I'm just trying to ask you, 2 do you recall whether the police officers read you your 3 rights or not when they arrested you at the hospital? 4 A: Could you read that again? 5 Q: Yes, ma'am. 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 7 hate to rise on something like this, but I mean, "I do 8 not recall," is the best answer, unless he wants her now 9 to say, yes, I recall it and then use that to -- to 10 confront her. She says she didn't recall; I think that's 11 the answer on the record. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's just 13 asking her now if she can recall saying I don't recall. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, I see. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think. Is 16 that what you're doing? 17 MR. IAN McGILP: That's exactly what I'm 18 doing, Mr. Commissioner. And I'm also giving Mr. Ross 19 occasion to rise this morning, aren't I? 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 22 Q: Ms. George, the police officers -- I 23 anticipate we're going to hear evidence from the police 24 officers that they did read you your rights when they 25 arrested you and I guess the question I have is a simple
401 one. Are you in a position to contradict that evidence 2 today? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: You changed your original question 7 here. I want to try answer you what you're asking me, 8 but now you're asking me in a different way, so I -- 9 Q: I'm sorry. Do you recall when the 10 police officers arrested you, whether they read you your 11 legal rights? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. You told us 14 also, on Thursday, that when you were in the jail at the 15 Strathroy -- Strathroy Detachment that your clothes were 16 taken at some point; do you recall that? 17 A: My clothes, yes. 18 Q: Yes. And I anticipate we're going to 19 hear evidence from the police officers that they spoke to 20 Mr. Ron George that evening and that Mr. Ron George 21 indicated that he had spoken to you and that you and your 22 brother, Pierre, were both willing to provide your 23 clothes to the police, but that neither of you was 24 prepared to make any statement of any kind. 25 The question I have, do you agree that
411 when the police asked you for your clothes that evening, 2 you provided them voluntarily after having spoken with 3 Mr. Ron George? 4 A: Yes, I provided them voluntarily, 5 although I didn't see any reason why they wanted them. 6 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now, if I 7 may, I'd like to go back to the period of 1993. When Mr. 8 Roderick George or Judas George, as he's sometimes known, 9 was here on November the 23rd, he told the Commission 10 that he saw Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone off and on at the 11 Army Camp, from 1993 on. 12 Did you see Bruce Elijah or Bob Anyone 13 when you were at the Army Camp, or the former Army Camp, 14 in 1993 or '4? 15 A: No. 16 Q: You didn't see them at all? 17 A: No. 18 Q: What -- what about Layton Elijah; did 19 you see him? 20 A: In '93? 21 Q: '93 or '4? 22 A: No. 23 Q: What about in '95, prior to the -- 24 prior to September the 4th; did you see any of those 25 three (3) individuals at the Army Camp in that time
421 frame? 2 A: Prior to when? 3 Q: Between -- in 1995 prior to the 4 occupation of the Park on September the 4th? 5 A: I know I never seen Layton and I 6 can't really recall whether I had seen Bob or Bruce. 7 Q: You can't recall? Thank you. I 8 believe you said that you saw Mr. -- the Jewel brothers, 9 Russ and Les, in the built-up area, after the takeover of 10 the built-up area on July the 29th, 1995. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you -- you mentioned that their 14 sister made a lot of donations to the cause; do you 15 remember that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Could you -- were those donations by 18 way of money or food or do you recall? 19 A: Food and she done the cooking. 20 Q: And she done the cooking? Do you 21 know what the sister's name is? 22 A: Not offhand. 23 Q: Do you know where she lives today? 24 A: Not really and I didn't really know 25 then either.
431 Q: The -- the reason I ask, to explain 2 it to you, Ms. George, is that the Commission has been 3 unable to contact either Russ or Les Jewel in order that 4 he have an -- they have an opportunity to give evidence 5 here and I was just wondering if you could help us in any 6 way through the sister. 7 A: No. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 A: I never met them before that and I 10 don't know where they are now. 11 Q: Thank you. And you don't know where 12 the sister is or what her name is either? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Thank you. Your son is -- one (1) of 15 your sons is Glenn Bressette, that's correct? 16 A: Only son. 17 Q: Your only son? And when -- when he 18 gave evidence on November the 10th at this Inquiry he was 19 asked if he knew Robert Isaac and he answered, Yes, it 20 was my brother's (sic) boyfriend. The -- the question I 21 would ask: 22 Is that an accurate description of your 23 relationship with Robert Isaac? 24 A: Whose? What -- what are you saying 25 here? You were saying that it was my brother's
441 boyfriend? 2 Q: No, no. No, no. Glen -- Glen 3 Bressette told the Commission on November the 10th that 4 Robert Isaac was his mother's boyfriend? 5 A: Yes, okay. Well, he was my friend. 6 Q: He was your friend? Thank you. When 7 did you meet Robert Isaac? 8 A: In '95. 9 Q: In '95? Was that prior to the -- 10 prior to the takeover of the built-up area on July 29th 11 or after? 12 A: It would be after. 13 Q: It was after July 29th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. Did you also know Ed 16 Isaac and Sam Isaac? 17 A: After, I would have met them 18 Q: After what, ma'am? 19 A: After Dudley was killed. 20 Q: After the confro -- after Dudley was 21 killed is when you first met Ed and Sam Isaac? 22 A: I met Ed then and his wife. I met 23 Sam sometime around there. 24 Q: But you think you met Sam after 25 September the 6th, also?
451 A: Oh yes, after. 2 Q: Afterwards. 3 A: Definitely not before. 4 Q: When Marlin Simon was here and gave 5 evidence, he mentioned that there was a 4th Isaac 6 brother, he said, whom he called Skid. 7 Did you ever know of a relative of -- of 8 the Isaac brothers who was known as Skid? 9 A: No, that's not his name. I'm trying 10 to think of it, it's not Skid. I can't think -- Skib. 11 Q: I'm sorry, did I get that correct; 12 Skib? 13 A: You said Skid. 14 Q: Oh, I said Skid, S-K-I-D is what Mr. 15 Simon told us. Are you indicating that you remember 16 there is a 4th Isaac brother? 17 A: Skib, S-K-I-B, I guess. 18 Q: Is -- is his name. Thank you. Do -- 19 do -- is that a nickname or is that a -- 20 A: That would be a nickname. 21 Q: Do you happen to know what his -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- given name is? Thank you. Now I 24 take it from time to time that you would have had -- or 25 perhaps I should ask you. Did you from time to time --
461 would you like a moment, Ms. George? 2 A: I'm just thinking how happy he'd be 3 hearing you call him that. 4 Q: I -- I won't ask you any further 5 questions about -- 6 A: Just hope he doesn't see this. 7 Q: Ms. George, did you from to time, 8 have conversations with Robert Isaac relating to the 9 Stoney Point people's efforts to get their land back? 10 You said he was your friend and I'm just 11 wondering if you had talked to him, from time to time, 12 about the efforts the Stoney Point people were making to 13 reclaim their lands? 14 A: Not really, we were friends, we 15 didn't spend a lot of political time. 16 Q: You didn't? Would you say that Mr. 17 Robert Isaac supported the idea of -- of taking over the 18 Park or the built-up area, based on what you knew from 19 talking to him? 20 A: I can't really say what his opinions 21 were on anything. 22 Q: He didn't, in any of those 23 conversations, indicate to you what he thought about the 24 idea of taking over the built-up area or the Park? He 25 never voiced an opinion on those matters to you?
471 A: We never really talked about a lot of 2 things like that. I said we were friends. 3 Q: Thank you. Now when you were last 4 Thursday, Ms. Vella asked you some questions about 5 warrior societies and warriors. 6 And as I have it -- as I recollect, you 7 told us that warriors had a certain number of 8 responsibilities and that they included protecting the 9 lands and returning the lands and protecting women and 10 children and ensuring that there was enough food for the 11 community; do you recall? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now one of the documents that's been 14 disclosed to this Commission, is the minutes of the 15 Stoney Point negotiating team and a meet -- of a meeting 16 that was held on January the 24th, 1996. And for the 17 record the document number is 1010734. One (1) of the 18 individuals that was at that meeting is someone named 19 Yellow Fox. 20 And when Tina George was here and she was 21 also present at that meeting -- I'm amusing you again 22 with names; am I? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Tina told -- Tina George told the 25 Commission on January the 20th that Yellow Fox was in
481 fact Robert Isaac. Did -- did you ever know Robert to go 2 by that name? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. Now at that meeting, the 5 minutes indicate that at that meeting, Mr. Isaac told the 6 meeting that he could bring a thousand (1,000) warriors 7 here. 8 And the question I have for you is: Did 9 Mr. Robert Isaac support the idea of bringing individuals 10 or warriors from other First Nation communities to help 11 the Stoney Point people protect their lands and people? 12 A: He never, ever mentioned it to me. 13 Q: He never mentioned that idea to you? 14 A: No. I was a cook and a friend. I 15 was not a -- what they're doing, you know like, that 16 wasn't -- I was just there to cook. 17 Q: That was not something you ever spoke 18 about with Mr. Isaac? 19 A: No, I chose not to become involved in 20 a lot of that. 21 Q: Ms. George, you'll be pleased to know 22 that I have no more questions about Skid or Yellow Fox or 23 anyone else and thank you very much for your co- 24 operation, you've been very helpful. 25 A: Please say Skib.
491 Q: I'm sorry. Skib. 2 A: Thank you. 3 Q: Thank you very much, Ms. George. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 5 O'Marra...? 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 8 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. My name is 9 Al O'Marra and I appear on behalf of the Chief Coroner. 10 And he's involved in this Inquiry to assist in 11 principally looking at the events that followed the 12 shooting of your brother. 13 There are two (2) areas that I'd like to 14 ask you questions on, and one is with respect to that 15 horrific journey that you and your brother and JT went on 16 to the hospital at Strathroy. 17 And the second is with respect to the 18 effect upon you and others as a result of the shooting of 19 your brother, Dudley. 20 In terms of the movement from the main 21 gate to the hospital, as I understand it, it was about 22 half way or a little short of half way that the car tire 23 blew and that you went into the farmhouse. 24 You and your brother both -- Pierre, went 25 there, into the farmhouse?
501 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And -- and as we've heard, a 3 phone call was made to try to obtain assistance by 4 getting an ambulance sent to that location, yes? 5 A: Yes. I'm sorry. 6 Q: And we also heard from JT, who we -- 7 we know never left the car, he stayed with your brother. 8 He did indicate that he felt that there was no offer of 9 assistance from the house, but that's contrary to what 10 you experienced when you went there. 11 They were very helpful, as much as they 12 could be, to you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And indeed, in addition to 15 making the telephone call and remaining on the phone 16 while you and your brother drove to the end of the lane, 17 they'd also provided you with some towels and ice in the 18 assistance of some -- some way to -- in the treatment of 19 your -- of your -- of your brother? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Okay. I expect we will hear directly 22 from them on that. But in terms of the journey from the 23 main gate to the hospital, I understand that it's 24 approximately fifty (50) kilometres and you indicated 25 last day that it -- it would take normally about forty-
511 five (45) minutes -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- to do that drive? "Yes." 4 And that this was about half way and that 5 you'd spent at least five (5) minutes at the house, 6 before driving to the end of the lane way; is that 7 correct? 8 A: We were at the house the amount of 9 time to make the phone call and then we dec -- we decided 10 to wait out at the road because we figured we would meet 11 the ambulance at the road instead of making them go all 12 the way up the driveway. 13 Q: So there was time both at the 14 farmhouse and then at the end of the lane way? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And then the decision was made 17 to proceed down what we know now as Nauvoo Road to the 18 stop sign at County Road 22? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And you stayed there for a 21 period of time, as well? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: In the hope that you'd see the 24 ambulance coming from some direction? 25 A: Yes. The intersection there would
521 have had -- if the ambulance came down the 402 it would 2 have had to come by the road where we were sitting at. 3 Q: Yes. The -- the 402 is just beyond 4 that stop sign. 5 A: Yes, you could see the traffic from 6 where were. 7 Q: And 22 is another direct route from 8 Strathroy? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And when you left that -- that 11 location, of course you're driving into Strathroy on -- 12 on at least one (1) flattened tire? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now you talked earlier about the 15 first part of the trip that, of course, your -- your 16 brother was driving as fast as that vehicle could 17 possibly travel until the -- the blowout? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, I understand, you know, your 20 concerns at that time, but would it be fair to say that 21 when you moved, after the farmhouse, that the vehicle was 22 -- was going somewhat slower because of the flattened 23 tire? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Now, when you drove into
531 Strathroy, as we saw in the map, you turned onto Centre 2 Road, which goes right down into the community. You also 3 drive down past the OPP station. 4 A: You -- you mean did we or -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I -- I don't think we went by there, 7 but I'm not too sure. Pierre was the one who knew how to 8 get to the hospital and I let him do the driving. 9 Q: All right. Was -- was your attention 10 focussed on the back seat and your brother? 11 A: Yes, most of my attention was 12 focussed back there. I was, you know like, worried about 13 Dudley and -- and certainly didn't need a backseat driver 14 at that time. 15 Q: No. And -- but you did observe as 16 least a police car or police cars when you got into 17 Strathroy? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And I -- I'm not sure whether 20 you were aware of this -- and I expect that we will hear 21 -- but perhaps you could confirm if -- if you are aware, 22 that because of this flattened tire that as the vehicle 23 was driving down the street it, in fact, was spraying a - 24 - a -- a -- or shooting out sparks as a result of the -- 25 the metal rim; were you aware of that?
541 A: Not really. Wouldn't that make the 2 car blow up? 3 Q: I think we will hear that there was a 4 -- a hail of sparks as a result of that, but my question 5 is -- is this, that -- did you -- did you have any sense 6 that the -- the police vehicles that you did see made any 7 attempt to -- to try to stop or intervene as you moved 8 towards the hospital? 9 A: They followed behind, there was none 10 that pulled out in front of us stopping us, they just 11 pulled in behind us. 12 Q: Okay. I have no further questions of 13 you about the -- that horrific journey, but let me now 14 turn to the second area and that's the effect upon you 15 and -- and others. 16 You answered in questions to my Friend Ms. 17 Vella about your not being able to continue with work? 18 A: That's true. 19 Q: And also that -- that you've -- you 20 have this continuing distrust or mistrust of -- of 21 police? 22 A: Oh, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And we heard about JT who was 24 in the car, directly from him, about the effects that it 25 has had on him.
551 Has there been additional affects upon you 2 in terms of your -- your own relations and your ability 3 to function in your community? 4 A: A great deal. I don't really feel 5 safe a lot of times, unless I'm at home at Stoney Point 6 or within the boundaries of Stoney Point. Even if I go 7 to, you know, like my daughter's place. Like, I was 8 already saying that I'd go there for a barbecue, then the 9 police would be riding up and down the road and I was 10 even very afraid to drive down the road myself. 11 I have told people before that, like, if I 12 was by myself I -- I was not stopping in my car for any 13 police, I was just going to drive right until I got to 14 Stoney Point until I knew there was somebody there. 15 Q: When you were working -- when you 16 went back to work -- you were working at a -- a school in 17 the -- in the community here? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Was there any offer of appointment -- 20 or employee assistance because of the difficulties that 21 you were experiencing? 22 A: What do you mean exactly? 23 Q: Well, counselling or any kind of 24 assistance that would help you deal the traumatic death 25 of -- of your brother and the circumstances in which you
561 were directly involved? 2 A: My boss there was giving me like a 3 two (2) year leave of absence. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: And my doctor thought that it would 6 be better for me if I went back to work and got back on a 7 schedule and that would help me get back into a routine. 8 Q: Yes. What of counselling services? 9 Let me ask you just specifically. 10 Were you provided any grief counselling 11 following the death of your brother? 12 A: They had some over at Kettle Point 13 but I didn't feel safe travelling over there. 14 Q: Perhaps within your family, you and 15 your brother were the most directly involved in the -- in 16 the circumstances of -- Dudley's death. While 17 counselling was offered through Kettle Point, did -- you 18 didn't -- you didn't access it or it wasn't -- was it not 19 available to you or just -- you chose not to? 20 A: I didn't really feel safe going over 21 there a lot of times. There was a lot of people in 22 Kettle Point who were quite unfriendly towards us at 23 Stoney Point. I have talked to Native counsellors in 24 recent years but in the beginning there, no. I was too 25 afraid to go places.
571 And like -- like the -- the police over at 2 Kettle Point. It was like they're always watching out 3 for me to, you know, like I said if I went to my 4 daughter's place, they would be right there. 5 And I just didn't have -- any trust in 6 them and I just didn't feel safe to go anywhere where 7 they would know where I'm at and they would be right 8 there to -- be -- just, like, harass me. 9 Q: Now we heard from Gina George who 10 spoke about the effect this has had upon her husband as 11 well as her son and -- and herself. 12 And she spoke about the services being 13 available through Kettle Point but nothing directly in to 14 Stoney Point, and -- and that was your experience as 15 well? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now you indicate that there were at 18 least some -- there was some assistance through the faith 19 community, the Mennonites had come into Stoney Point; any 20 others? 21 A: The Native healers you mean? 22 Q: Well, what -- however you would 23 describe the faith community. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. Now I anticipate that we
581 will hear from your brother Pierre, although I understand 2 he's not well at the moment. Tell us about, from your 3 observation, the effect upon -- this event on -- on his 4 life. 5 A: My brother Pierre chose to speak out 6 about the racism and police brutality and he was accosted 7 by the police a few times there where he's had it I feel, 8 a lot worse than I have had. Because I at least like 9 I'll -- I'll stay at Stoney and just go out when I feel I 10 -- it's safe to do so. 11 And -- but my brother Pierre, he's -- I'd 12 say he's a lot more shaken up by the events that have 13 happened to him, caused to him, by the police. 14 Q: Like yourself, did he have -- did he 15 have difficulty in terms of his employment or continuing 16 to work afterwards? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Are you aware as to whether Pierre 19 had available to him any kind of counselling or other 20 services to help him in the aftermath of the death of 21 your brother? 22 A: I can't really say about all that he 23 done. 24 Q: Let me just ask you, finally, Ms. 25 George, as being a family member who was directly
591 involved in the circumstances, has there been any 2 apology, officially or otherwise to you? 3 A: From the police? 4 Q: From anyone. 5 A: From anyone? 6 Q: Officially? 7 A: No. Although -- who was it -- I seen 8 this man named Jim Potts and he -- he apologized. He -- 9 he says he didn't know what all had happened to me. I 10 seen him just in January and he apologized then because 11 he says he didn't know what all had happened to me. 12 He says he listened to the tapes a couple 13 of months ago and he finally learned. 14 Q: And Jim Potts is -- is who? 15 A: Something to do with the OPP. 16 Q: All right. Thank you, Ms. George, 17 those are my questions of you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. Mr. Ross...? 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I'll be just a few 21 minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: Ms. George, I want to ask you just 25 about three (3) areas. Number one, the easiest one, with
601 respect to your clothes, Counsel for the OPP has 2 suggested that this was voluntary. 3 How much choice did you think you had when 4 they asked you for your clothes? 5 A: I didn't think I had any. 6 Q: I -- I -- I -- 7 A: I thought they were just going to 8 take them anyways, whether I gave them or not. 9 Q: And I understand that when you were - 10 - that you were arrested at some point and they told you 11 you were going to be charged with attempted murder; that 12 was your evidence? 13 A: Yes, that we were going to me -- 14 well, we were arrested for attempted murder. 15 Q: Did they tell you who you attempted 16 to murder? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I see, just attempted murder at 19 large, I see. And with respect to this arrest, were any 20 papers served on you? Did they give you any papers? 21 A: No. 22 Q: So even when you left the police 23 station, having been arrested for attempted murder, 24 nobody told you and nobody gave you any papers or 25 anything?
611 A: No. 2 Q: Did they ever get back to you and 3 say, look, that the arrest was improper, they made a 4 mistake, that you didn't try to murder anybody, to their 5 knowledge? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And you spoke about your visits to 8 your daughters, and the word -- I noted you said that 9 about the police harassing you. 10 Now this -- where did your daughters live? 11 A: In Kettle Point. 12 Q: So when you were down at Kettle Point 13 and you were being harassed, this was by OPP officers? 14 A: Kettle Point police mainly. 15 Q: Kettle Point police? And as far as 16 Stoney Point is concerned, you say that you -- you don't 17 like leaving Stoney Point, you feel safe there? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: Yeah. Now as a First Nations person, 20 do you believe it's right for anybody to feel they've got 21 to hide in any one little area in this big country? 22 A: No. This is supposed to be all of 23 our land. 24 Q: And as far as this Inquiry is 25 concerned, I must ask you first, when did you first move
621 on to -- on to the Camp site? 2 A: The built up area -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- was July 30th. 5 Q: And were you living on -- on the site 6 before then? Were you at the range? 7 A: I was living on the range, yes. 8 Q: So you lived on the range and you 9 moved to the built up area. Now why did you think it was 10 necessary to have to move onto the range in the first 11 place? 12 A: Our people had been trying to get our 13 land back for over fifty (50) years and they were 14 building up to buildings on the -- up the barracks, they 15 were refurbishing them. You knew they weren't going to 16 give the land back so when the other people moved onto 17 the ranges, I went and moved there, too. 18 Q: Would you agree that this more of a 19 political statement, wanting Government to changes its 20 position? 21 A: I think so. 22 Q: So you weren't really doing this 23 expecting that you'd get a deed in your name, it was part 24 of a movement to say, Give us back the land which was 25 ours in the first place?
631 A: Yes. 2 Q: And with the relationship that exists 3 now between the Occupiers, the people at Aazhoodena and 4 Kettle Point, if these lands are returned, what do you 5 think would happen if they returned under the management 6 of Chief and Council down at Kettle Point? 7 Would that be a good thing, a bad thing 8 and why? 9 A: Well, I'd say it would be bad for it 10 to go to Kettle Point because all of this time, they -- 11 they weren't trying to get our land back for us, they 12 were accepting money from the Government for 13 compensation, but they weren't trying to get our land 14 back. 15 Q: Thank you very much, Ms. George, 16 you've been very helpful. Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much, Mr. Ross. Ms. Vella...? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just one (1) matter. I 20 wonder if we could make the map that you marked for the 21 OPPA Counsel the next exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-156. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-156. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-156: 8"x11" "Stan" Thompson Drawing,
641 September 20/95, Marked by Witness Ms. 2 Carolyn George, Feb 07/05 3 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That concludes the re- 5 exam. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Ms. George, for coming here and giving us your 8 evidence. We're finished now and I think this would be a 9 good point for us to take a morning break. Thank you. 10 11 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 14 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 11:50 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 12:06 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, the 22 next Witness of the Commission is Hendrikus Veens. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, just 24 have a seat, Mr. Veens. 25 MR. HENDRIKUS VEENS: Okay, thank you.
651 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Veens, do you prefer 2 to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath? 3 MR. HENDRIKUS VEENS: I prefer to swear 4 on the Bible. 5 THE REGISTRAR: State your name in full 6 for us, please. 7 MR. HENDRIKUS VEENS: My name is 8 Hendrikus Wilhelmus Veens, just call Hank for short. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. Now could you 10 spell your first two (2) names for us, please. 11 THE WITNESS: Hendrikus, H-E-N-D-R-I-K-U- 12 S. Wilhelmus, W-I-L-H-E-L-M-U-S. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 14 15 HENDRIKUS WILHELMUS VEENS, SWORN 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Veens. I 19 understand that you also sometimes go by the name Hank? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Your date of birth is January the 22 7th, 1955? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I understand that you are married 25 and that you have seven (7) children?
661 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what is the name of your wife? 3 A: Mary. 4 Q: And where is your current residence? 5 A: We live at 6840 Nauvoo Road, R.R. 1 6 Arkona. 7 Q: How long have you resided there? 8 A: Since '67. 9 Q: And can you just give us a sense 10 where is your -- your house in relation to 22 -- County 11 Road 22 and Townsend? 12 A: I'm about from Highway 22 -- I'm 13 about a mile and a quarter from the stop sign. 14 Q: All right. And what -- 15 A: Oh, Townsend Line, I'm -- I'm about 16 two (2) miles away. 17 Q: All right. Thank you. All right. 18 Now, Mr. Veens, I'd like you -- I understand that you 19 were home the night of September the 6th, 1995 in the 20 evening. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And would you kindly tell us to the 23 best of your recollection, some years later, what 24 transpired that evening. 25 A: It was an evening -- it was fact a
671 warm evening. We went to bed, let's say eleven o'clock 2 or quarter after eleven, I don't remember exactly. And 3 about 11:30 we heard this tire -- car going up the -- up 4 the road and I rolled over and said to my wife, this 5 car's got a -- got a flat tire. And I -- you could hear 6 it you know, thumping down the road. 7 And then it came up our lane way, oh boy, 8 it's going up our lane way. And shortly after there was 9 a pounding on -- one the door and I answered the door and 10 two (2) people were -- were there, Carolyn and Pierre. 11 And they mentioned they need help, their brother was 12 shot. 13 And right away I took a quick glance 14 outside -- just a quick glance and then I went to the 15 phone which is at the other end of the room. So, dialled 16 9-1-1 as quick as possible and told then what happened 17 and the ambulance was on the way. 18 Q: All right. Now, let's just back up 19 for a moment. You -- you indicated the first indication 20 of their appearance was that you actually heard the -- 21 the thumping of the flat tire? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Now, there was a pounding 24 on the door and you -- were you on -- were you alone when 25 you answered the door?
681 A: My wife came down, too. It all 2 happened very quick -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- that time. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I just ran down the stairs, opened 7 the door up and the two (2) people were -- were there. 8 Q: Now, you indicated that you now know 9 those individuals to be Pierre and Carolyn, I take it you 10 knew -- did you know them at the time? 11 A: No, I never met them. 12 Q: Did they tell you who there were? 13 A: Yes, they did. 14 Q: Did they actually give you their 15 names? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And approximately what time 18 was it that the door -- that you heard the door knock? 19 A: Well, 11:30. 20 Q: All right. And how is that you can 21 be certain about that time? 22 A: I don't remember too much about it, 23 just reading the notes and stuff like that. It's, you 24 know, it's -- 25 Q: Okay. But it was typically your
691 habit, was it at the time, to be -- to go to bed between 2 11:00 and 11:15? 3 A: Yes, by eleven o'clock. 4 Q: All right. Now, when you saw these 5 two (2) individuals in front of you, can you -- can you 6 describe what their emotional, if you will, or their -- 7 their appearance was at the door? 8 A: They were very -- they looked very 9 concerned. They needed help and -- and I tried to help 10 them by dialling 9-1-1. 11 Q: Did they give you any cause to be 12 fearful? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Did you notice the car? 15 A: I took a quick glance. Yes, it was - 16 - it was actually -- they had it running hot, steaming, 17 and I didn't notice the flat tire, but I -- I -- a just - 18 - I definitely heard a flat tire. 19 Q: All right. Did you ever see the occu 20 -- the other occupants of the car? 21 A: No, I did not. I did not. I -- 22 after I ran to the phone the operator made sure I stayed 23 on the line. 24 Q: All right. Well, let's get to that 25 telephone call then. First of all, prior to making the
701 call, did you or your wife offer any assistance to them? 2 A: It was during the call my wife 3 offered some assistance. 4 Q: All right. Who made -- who initiated 5 the telephone call? 6 A: I did. 7 Q: And who did you call? 8 A: 9-1-1. 9 Q: All right. What did you tell them? 10 A: A person is on my yard and he's shot. 11 Q: Did you tell them anything else? 12 A: That's about it. 13 Q: Did you request anything? 14 A: I requested an ambulance as soon as 15 possible. 16 Q: All right. And did you provide them 17 with your address? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: And the address you provided them 20 with, was that -- is that a street -- a municipal address 21 or a 9-1-1 phone number? 22 A: I gave them -- I don't quite what I 23 all gave them, I'm -- I'm almost sure I would have given 24 them my 9-1-1 number and my -- our Arkona address. 25 Q: All right. Were you asked any
711 questions by the operator? 2 A: Yes, I was. One (1) time the 3 operator asked me if they had guns? I that was -- oh, 4 that's something. 5 Q: Why did you think that? 6 A: Well, I just -- no, I -- I thought, 7 you know, just strange to ask that question. 8 Q: All right. Did you provide them with 9 a response? 10 A: Yes, I said they didn't have guns. 11 Q: All right. And was this question 12 relative to the length of the conversation -- towards the 13 beginning, middle or end of it? 14 A: I would say it was in the middle of 15 the conversation. 16 Q: Approximately how long did you have 17 the 9-1-1 operator on the line? 18 A: I estimate it ten (10) to fifteen 19 (15) minutes, well that I was on the line and then I 20 walked outside. I got my wife to hold the line and then 21 I walked outside to see if they needed any assistance and 22 when I walked outside they -- they were gone. 23 Q: All right. And you indicated 24 approximately what -- what time had lapsed between them 25 coming to your door and then you going back out and
721 seeing they were gone? 2 A: I would say fifteen (15) minutes, but 3 things were happening very fast then. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Because Carolyn came in a couple of 6 times in between there asking, Is the ambulance coming? 7 And I said, Yes, the ambulance is coming because the 8 operator assured me the ambulance was coming. 9 Q: All right. Now, you indicated 10 earlier that at some point in time, something was taken 11 to -- to these individuals? 12 Did you take anything out to these 13 individuals? 14 A: Oh, my wife tried to help these 15 individuals with ice cubes and a few clean diapers. 16 Q: Okay. All right. At some -- did -- 17 where was the car located when Carolyn and Pierre first 18 approached the door? 19 A: Right beside the house. 20 Q: And did it remain there? 21 A: Yes. I walked -- oh, maybe I might 22 have instructed them to park at the end of lane, because 23 the ambulance was coming, should be here any time. 24 Q: Now, you indicated that when you went 25 back outside after being on the 9-1-1 call and you said
731 that Mary, your wife, was still on the line, that the car 2 had left? 3 A: Yes, the car was gone. 4 Q: And obviously you -- you hadn't been 5 aware that they were planning to leave? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Did you advise the 9-1-1 8 operator that they had left? 9 A: Yes, I -- I must have walked back to 10 the house and, yes, I said they had left; that was 11 fifteen (15), twenty (20) minutes after. 12 Q: Did -- did you advise the 9-1-1 13 operator to cancel the ambulance call? 14 A: I think I have, yes. I am not sure, 15 though, but... 16 Q: All right. Well we have a -- a tape 17 of that 9-1-1 call which we will play later, and I'll you 18 to identify and that may refresh your memory in that 19 respect. 20 A: It should. 21 Q: All right. In -- in your -- have you 22 ever had occasion to -- to request ambulance assistance 23 to your house prior to this? 24 A: I -- I have. One time, yes. 25 Q: All right. And can you tell me
741 approximately how long, if you can recall, it took the 2 ambulance to arrive at your house after calling for them? 3 A: Well, this particular time -- this 4 particular time we were baling straw and I had my hired 5 man on -- on the wagon and I was driving the tractor and 6 I stopped, he fell off and he broke his arm. 7 So I -- I ran to the house and dialled 9- 8 1-1 and he was there very quick. I think dispatch came 9 from Watford but I'm not sure. He was there, I felt, 10 very fast. 11 Q: And can you just give a sense as to 12 how -- how quickly that was in terms of minutes? 13 A: I would say ten (10) minutes. 14 Q: All right. And you believe the -- 15 the ambulance came from Waterford, did you say? 16 A: Watford. 17 Q: Watford, all right. 18 A: Yes, I just -- I don't know where it 19 came but I just assumed it did. 20 Q: In September of 1995, to your 21 knowledge, was there still an ambulance dispatch there? 22 A: I think there was but I'm not sure. 23 Q: Did the operator indicate to you 24 where the ambulance was being -- 25 A: No.
751 Q: -- dispatched from? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you make any assumptions in that 4 respect? 5 A: I felt it came from Forest or from 6 Watford. From Forest it should have been there, if 7 stepped on, I think just over ten (10) minutes should 8 have been there. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: And Watford, it should -- it could 11 have been there in six (6), seven (7) minutes. 12 Q: All right, okay. If I recollect, 13 Watford is just the other side of the -- of the 22? 14 A: Yes, it's about three (3) miles. 15 Q: All right. Now did you -- did you 16 come to find out what had happened with respect to the -- 17 the car and its ultimate trip? 18 A: No. I've -- if I had found out it 19 was about -- would have been a few months after the 20 incident -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- like I -- I heard it over the news 23 that, you know, they weren't treated very good. Now I 24 hear how good they were treated, so I ... 25 Q: Did you ever see either Carolyn
761 and/or Pierre George again? 2 A: I seen Pierre about a month after. 3 He thanked me for trying to help. 4 Q: Did he -- and -- and where did this 5 conversation take place? 6 A: On the farm. 7 Q: Right. We'll I'd like to now -- if 8 you'll just give us a second. We will go to the tape of 9 the 9-1-1 call and for the record, we have a transcript 10 of that -- of the entire proceedings of the 9-1-1 11 conversations, which are not just the one (1) involving 12 Mr. Veens but other ones as well. 13 It's Inquiry Document Number 5000215. And 14 what we will do is -- we will mark the disk itself 15 containing the audio file as the next exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-157 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 157 is the 18 disk. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-157: Audio Disk of document 21 5000215, 9-1-1 call from Hank 22 Veens, September 6/7, 1995 23 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And then the transcript 25 from the tape of September 6th and 7th, 1995 as the next
771 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-158. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-158. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-158: Document 5000215 Transcript 6 of 9-1-1 call from Hank Veens 7 pages 2662-2673, September 8 6/7, 1995, 12 pages typed on 9 September 26/'95. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: Mr. Veens, we're going to provide you 13 with a copy of the transcript as well and at some point 14 we will be stopping the tape to ask you some questions. 15 A: Okay. Thank you. 16 17 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Okay. I've just interrupted that 21 tape. Do you -- did you recognize the voice of that 22 recent male caller? 23 A: Not really. I guess it's me. 24 Q: Okay. All right, can you continue to 25 play that passage for me, please.
781 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: All right, having had a chance to 5 hear that segment, are you able to confirm that that's 6 your voice? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is that -- that was the 9-1-1 9 operator who you spoke to, as far as you can recollect? 10 A: As far as I can recollect, yes. 11 Q: All right, thank you. And at this 12 time, were the -- were Carolyn and Pierre at -- at the 13 door? 14 A: Yes, they were. 15 Q: And is that there -- Pierre's voice 16 we heard in the background, indicating where the gunshot 17 wound was to you? 18 A: I -- I guess so. I can't remember 19 that no more. 20 Q: All right. Well, who would you have 21 received that information from? 22 A: Now, when I think back, I think I got 23 the information from Carolyn. 24 Q: All right, fair enough. And 25 obviously, you passed that along to the operator?
791 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Perhaps you could resume the 3 tape. 4 5 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: All right. Now just that passage 9 that we've heard between the female caller and the OPP 10 operator, do you recognize the voice of the female? 11 A: That's my wife. 12 Q: All right. And just for the record I 13 should note in the transcript this conversation is at 14 page 10 and 11 and Mary Veens is identified as Caller- 15 Nauvoo-Female. 16 And earlier on I should have indicated the 17 prior passage was at page 8 of the transcript and Mr. 18 Veens is identified as Caller-Nauvoo-Male. All right. 19 We'll -- sorry? That's page 8. Yeah, it's just page 8. 20 I'll resume, now, the balance of the tape. 21 22 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. That further exchange,
801 again, do you recognize the name of the voice making the 2 call? And that was who? 3 A: That's me. 4 Q: All right. And just for the record, 5 that exchange occurred at page 11 of the transcript and, 6 again, Mr. Veens is identified as Caller-Nauvoo-Male. 7 And was that, in fact, the end of the 8 telephone call? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: And just to be clear, either you or 11 your wife was on the telephone the entire time; is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And now that you have 15 heard this segment of the tape, does it refresh your 16 memory as to whether it was you who cancelled the 17 ambulance? 18 A: I guess it was me that -- yes. 19 Q: Well, I don't see the word here, 20 "cancel". I think you indicated that -- 21 A: They had left. 22 Q: That they had left. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Is that -- is that as far as you 25 went?
811 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough. And you 3 indicated that the car had gone to the hospital. 4 A: I assumed. 5 Q: You assumed? And which hospital 6 would that be? 7 A: Strathroy. 8 Q: And would that be obvious to the 9 operator? 10 A: I would think so. 11 Q: All right. And why is that? 12 A: Well, that's the closest hospital 13 from -- from where I was. 14 Q: Fair enough. And approximately how - 15 - how long would it take -- normally, take to make the 16 trip from your house to the hospital at Strathroy? 17 A: If you get on the 402, just over 18 twenty (20) minutes, twenty-five (25) minutes. 19 Q: All right. And do you recall now 20 what colour the car was that had pulled up in the 21 driveway? 22 A: Yeah, I -- I kind of remember it as 23 kind of a white car. 24 Q: All right. And do you recall what 25 make or how large it was?
821 A: No. It was a good sized car. I'm 2 guessing, you know, it was a GM model. 3 Q: All right. Fair enough. And I'm 4 just going to play the balance of the tape for you. 5 6 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 7 8 Q: Now having heard that, do you recall 9 whether or not you received a further telephone call from 10 -- from the 9-1-1 operator? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Well perhaps we can 13 refresh your memory. 14 A: Oh, oh. 15 16 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: All right. I've stopped the tape at 19 that point, but in any event, you've now had a chance to 20 hear that last part of the tape that we've just played. 21 Do you recall now whether or not the 9-1-1 22 operator called you back to ask about guns? 23 A: I remember the guns. I thought it 24 was during the -- that first call when we made it at -- 25 that the operator had asked me that, but I guess it came
831 after. 2 Q: All right, fair enough. And if you 3 look at your documents binder and if you would look at 4 Tab 1. This is a document, Inquiry Document Number 5 1002953, it's a computer printout of Forest/Bosanquet 9- 6 1-1 calls from September 6, '95. 7 And you'll see near the bottom, there's a 8 registered notation of a call from Hank Veens, September 9 6, 1995 at 11:26:48 p.m. 10 Does that sound like about the time you 11 would have originated or initiated your call? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if you would please -- perhaps 14 we'll make that the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-159. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 159 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-159: Document 1002953, 9-1-1 Call from 19 Hank Veens September 06/95 20 23:26:49 P.m. Received by 21 Forest/Bosanquet 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: And if you would now look at Tab 2, 25 which is Inquiry Document 1002002, and it's entitled
841 "Central Ambulance Dispatch Details for September 6th, 2 1995", you'll see, and this is from the ambulance 3 dispatch, that the ambulance was notified at about 4 23:31:03 and then the call cancelled, in terms of the 5 ambulance, at 23:55:59 p.m. on September the 6th, 1995 6 which means that approximately twenty-five (25) minutes 7 lapsed as between the initiation of your call and the end 8 of it. 9 Does that sound like about right to you? 10 A: I would think so, yes. That sounds 11 close. 12 Q: Let's make that the next exhibit 13 then, please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-160. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-160. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-160: Document 1002002 Emergency Call 18 Narratives Between Hank Veens 19 and Ambulance Dispatch September 06/95 20 Notified 23:31:03 Hrs 21 Cancelled 23:55:59 Hours 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: All right. Now, did an ambulance 25 ever arrive at your residence, either that night or
851 September the 7th, in the morning? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did a police car ever arrive? 4 A: Not that night. A inspector came, I 5 think, a couple of days after the incidents. 6 Q: All right, thank you very much. 7 Those are my questions, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Ms. Vella. Does anybody intend to cross-examine this 10 witness? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Five (5) to ten 12 (10) minutes, sir. 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Two (2) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 15 try do it before lunch then. Do you want to try and do 16 it before lunch? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I am at your 18 disposal, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 Let's try and finish it. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think we should 24 finish it if we can. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
861 very much. Mr. Rosenthal...? 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Orkin...? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 4 sorry. Mr. Orkin's first. Doesn't matter? 5 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Doesn't matter. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, 10 Commissioner. Good afternoon. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: I'm Peter Rosenthal. I'm 14 representing some of the people from Stoney Point and 15 Aazhoodena and George family, and I've lost my document, 16 excuse me a second. 17 Picking up from the end, Ms. Vella asked 18 you about the twenty-five (25) minutes and you said that 19 sounded about right. But you told us that you would have 20 expected ten (10) minutes at the outside for an ambulance 21 to get to your house; right? 22 A: I felt, yes. 23 Q: And according to the records, it 24 seems that it was about three (3) minutes from the 25 beginning of your call until they notified the
871 ambulance -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- and that still leaves twenty-two 4 (22) minutes before the ambulance was cancelled and it 5 didn't get to your house. 6 A: Yeah. Nobody -- nobody showed up, 7 nobody. 8 Q: Did you get the -- as you were 9 talking to the ambulance dispatcher, did you get the -- 10 any negative feeling about attending this call? 11 A: I -- I asked -- no, Carolyn kept 12 asking me, is the ambulance coming? And I asked the 13 ambulance and they kept assuring me it was coming. 14 The negative feeling that I got is after 15 the -- after the episode was -- was all done. 16 Q: So when you look back on it, after 17 the episode was done, you got a feeling that they weren't 18 so anxious to answer this call? 19 A: I had a feeling they weren't going to 20 come anyways. 21 Q: Thank you. Now, are you located 22 between Birnam and Brickyard Lines? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So that is accurate? 25 A: Yes.
881 Q: And you told us that about a month 2 later, Pierre came to thank you for your assistance? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And he came knocking on your door to 5 thank you? 6 A: Yeah, it was -- actually I was 7 outside. It was a Sunday afternoon, midday, and, yes, he 8 just drove up the laneway and I -- I greeted him and we 9 just talked and he thanked me. 10 Q: Thank you. Well may I also thank you 11 for your assistance and for your testimony. Thank you 12 very much, sir. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. Mr. Orkin...? 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Veens. My name 18 is Andrew Orkin. I'm co-counsel to the Dudley George 19 Estate and the Sam George Family Group. I have just a 20 couple of questions for you. Along with the rest of the 21 people here I'm sure you listened quite carefully to the 22 -- to the tape that was just played. 23 From your own perspective listening to 24 that tape, do you gain an impression that there was or 25 was not an effort being made to get an ambulance to your
891 premises in -- in -- in any kind of forthright or 2 impressive way? 3 A: They didn't sound too excited. They 4 were just, I don't know, yeah, they weren't -- my 5 impression was things were just going through -- through 6 the motion. 7 Q: And listening to the tape with the 8 time frames that you had in mind which you testified 9 about, did you gain a sense from that tape that your 10 testimony may have been underestimating or overestimating 11 the amount of time that this all took in terms of the 12 delay? 13 A: It was go -- at that time I felt 14 fifteen (15) minutes, you know. My period of time with 15 the Georges but it may be a little longer. But I was 16 mostly on -- on the phone. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: The operator made sure I stayed on 19 the phone and -- and at the end, yeah, I handed the phone 20 over to my wife and I watched to see what was going on 21 with a cup of water. But they -- they were gone. 22 Q: Right. Could you remind me please, 23 how long it was in -- the sense you had that the -- the 24 vehicle from the point you heard it arriving at your -- 25 at your home to the point that it departed, how long
901 might that have been? 2 A: Well in -- in my sense just, you 3 know, just -- in my sense I felt, yeah, twenty (20), 4 twenty-five (25) minutes. 5 Q: So the car was perhaps on your 6 premises for -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- that amount of time? 9 A: In my sense, yes. 10 Q: Right. And during that time you were 11 mostly on the phone but you and your wife were taking 12 assistance outside, as best as you could? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Could you perhaps elaborate on what 15 it was that you saw in the car? 16 A: When they came up the laneway and 17 parked, I greeted them at the door and I just glanced at 18 the car. And that's really all I seen of that car. I 19 didn't see the occupants in the car. I just met Carolyn 20 and Pierre and that was about it. 21 Q: At your doorstep? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Right. You mentioned in response 24 briefly to a question from My Friend that you had no 25 contact at that time with police officers of any kind but
911 you did have some contact subsequently? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Could you tell us how that contact 4 came about? 5 A: I think he called -- I'm just going 6 to -- off the top of my head because it's been a long 7 time ago. 8 Q: Yes, of course. 9 A: I think he called in the morning that 10 he was coming down. A couple of days after the -- the 11 incident and he came down noon, eleven o'clock. I'm 12 just -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- just -- could have been three 15 o'clock, I don't really know no more. 16 Q: So a few days after the incident -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- you had a call and on the same day 19 an officer from the OPP arrived at your place or -- it 20 was a police officer? 21 A: Yeah. It -- it was an investigator. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: And a grey car -- had a grey car. 24 Q: Could you elaborate on -- on the 25 contact you had within the questions you asked or the
921 questions that you were asked? 2 A: Basic -- he just asked me for his 3 report, the best of knowledge, of what went on that night 4 when the Georges showed up at -- at the house. 5 Q: Did you ask the officer perhaps about 6 the -- your sense of how long it had taken for an 7 ambulance to arrive and -- 8 A: I probably did quiz him on it. 9 Q: Did you get a response of any kind? 10 A: Oh, must have been busy. 11 Q: Thank you, those are all the 12 questions I have. 13 A: Okay. 14 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, 15 Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 17 Vella...? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just briefly, 19 Commissioner. 20 21 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: You indicated a little bit earlier to 23 My Friend that you developed a feeling that the ambulance 24 was not going to come. You said after all this. 25 When did you first develop that feeling?
931 A: It was just -- I think after they had 2 left and nobody -- no one showed up, no policemen showed 3 up after. This -- cause I think is a serious thing. 4 When somebody shows up at the doorstep that's shot, they 5 should follow up that night, but nothing -- nothing 6 follow up. 7 Q: All right. Was there anything that 8 was said to you during the course of the conversation you 9 had with the 9-1-1 operator that led you to that view? 10 A: No, this -- no I -- basically when 11 they had left I had bad feelings -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- that I couldn't help them, I 14 guess, you know. 15 Q: That you couldn't help them yourself? 16 A: More, yes. 17 Q: Okay. Fair enough. I think back 18 now, you know, I wish I just threw them in the van and -- 19 and went, but there was no -- you always felt when you 20 dial 9-1-1, you ask for assistance and they assure you, 21 it -- it comes. 22 Q: All right. Thank you very much. 23 That -- that concludes my re-examination. Thank you 24 very, very much, Mr. Veens, for coming today to testify. 25 A: Okay. Thank you.
941 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Mr. Veens. Thanks for coming. 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, thank you. 4 5 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it. 8 I think we'll take a lunch break now. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 11 reconvene at 2:30. We'll adjourn for lunch. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 13 adjourned until 2:30. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 1:16 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:30 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed, please be seated. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 23 afternoon, Mr. Worme. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: The next witness we'd 25 call is Jeremiah James George.
951 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 2 George. 3 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 4 THE REGISTRAR: I understand that you 5 prefer to be sworn on the Bible? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Please take the Bible in 8 your right hand. State your name in full for us please. 9 THE WITNESS: My name is Jeremiah James 10 George. 11 JEREMIAH JAMES GEORGE, Sworn: 12 13 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME. 14 Q: First of all, Mr. George, thank you 15 for being here. I know that it was a long trip for you, 16 a difficult trip as well. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Mr. George, you are currently twenty- 19 nine years of age. You were born December the 8th, 1975? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: You were born in Sarnia, Ontario. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Your parents are Genevieve -- 24 A: Geneva. 25 Q: Pardon me, Geneva?
961 A: Yeah. 2 Q: In fact she's here today to support 3 you. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And I understand your father Cecil 6 George has since passed on? 7 A: Yes, he has. 8 Q: You go by a nickname sometimes Fin? 9 A: Yeah. Fin. F-I-N. 10 Q: I wonder if you might just take a 11 moment, Mr. George, and if you could tell the 12 Commissioner who your siblings are? Your brothers and 13 sisters? Perhaps you could start at the eldest and work 14 your way down? 15 A: All right. I'm the youngest of ten 16 (10). My oldest sister is Judy and then I have Bernard, 17 Jessie, Stan, Tommy and my -- and another sister that 18 passed away, Norma, Selena (phonetic) she's here present 19 with me tonight, Stacey and Albert. 20 Q: And then you would come in at the end 21 I think you said? 22 A: Yeah. I'm the youngest. 23 Q: And when you referred to -- to 24 Bernard, he also is known by Cecil Bernard? 25 A: Yeah. Cecil Bernard. I always call
971 him Bernard. 2 Q: Your grandparents who I understand, 3 Mr. George, you never had an opportunity to meet. Alma 4 Wild (phonetic) and Archie Bressette? 5 A: That's correct. I never got to meet 6 any of my grandparents. 7 Q: But -- but those in particular, Mr. 8 Bressette and -- and Mrs. Wild, they were both from 9 Stoney Point? 10 A: yes. 11 Q: And your father's parents were Harvey 12 and Dora George? 13 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Mr. George, I understand that you 16 might have heard something though about your 17 grandparents. Perhaps your in the course of growing up 18 you might have learned something about them when they had 19 lived at Stoney Point. Is there something you can tell 20 us about that? 21 A: Well, my mom talked about them once 22 in a while. And she said that they had a large -- a 23 large amount of property down there. And that they had 24 livestock and like animals on the farm. 25 Q: And you're of course aware that they
981 would have then been moved from Stoney Point to Kettle 2 Point in 1942? 3 A: Yeah. They were moved off. 4 Q: And do you know how much land that 5 they would have received in Kettle Point if any? 6 A: I'm not sure of that, how much they 7 received or if they received any, I'm not sure. 8 Q: Okay. Do you know whether your 9 grandparents after being moved from Stoney Point in fact 10 resided in Kettle Point? 11 A: If they resided in Kettle Point? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Yeah. I'm pretty sure they moved to 14 Kettle Point. 15 Q: All right. And you were -- you were 16 born in Sarnia, but you grew up in Kettle Point? 17 A: Yeah. Yeah, I grew up there and my 18 whole life. 19 Q: Okay. You went to school there? 20 A: I went to school in Forest. 21 Q: Okay. And what education do you 22 have, Mr. George? 23 A: I'm a Grade 12. 24 Q: And you received that where? 25 A: In Sarnia, Ontario.
991 Q: Okay. And I understand you'd 2 attended university, at least for -- was it a semester or 3 more? 4 A: No, it was just college. Just for a 5 semester. 6 Q: Which college was that? 7 A: Lambton College. 8 Q: And then in 1996, you moved away from 9 -- from Kettle Point? 10 A: Yeah, I just -- just to Sarnia, 11 though. Where -- yeah. 12 Q: And you went to -- you lived other 13 places as well? 14 A: Yeah, I lived in Sarnia for a while, 15 then I moved to Windsor, back to Sarnia then to London, 16 and now I'm living in Calgary. 17 Q: All right. And as you were moving to 18 these different places, what was it that you were doing? 19 A: Work. Just like labourer, 20 construction. 21 Q: You're in the construction industry 22 now, in Calgary? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: What is it you do there? 25 A: Build infrastructures that can be
1001 assembled for various reasons. The Army uses a lot of 2 them for their military, for tanks and stuff like that, 3 or whatever they need them for. 4 Q: Let me just talk to you, then, a 5 little bit about the land at Stoney Point. 6 You're familiar with that land? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: You've been there from time to time 9 as you were growing up? 10 A: Yeah, pretty much like -- I went 11 there a few times when I was a teenager but more so when 12 I got older into my teens or I don't know, yeah. 13 Q: And your purpose for going there? 14 A: To -- I don't know, because I -- my 15 grandparents grew up, or that was more where my 16 grandparents were from so I just liked how it looked 17 there so I wanted to get to know it a little bit, so 18 hopefully, someday I could actually call it -- call it 19 home as well. Sorry. 20 Q: It is fair to say that you consider 21 both Kettle Point and Stoney Point to be your home? 22 A: Right now I can't really consider 23 Stoney Point to be home, because there's just too much 24 that -- no, I can't -- just Kettle Point, really. 25 Q: Okay.
1011 A: I would like to call it home, though. 2 Q: I'm sorry? 3 A: I would like to be able to call it 4 home, but there's just too much conflict there and I 5 don't know. 6 Q: And if those conflicts were resolved, 7 I take it you would be happy, then, to go there? 8 A: Yeah, I would be. I'd more than 9 pleased to, because in Kettle Point I do have -- I do 10 have land that I inherited from my father, which is only 11 good for, like, cutting the trees down into firewood, 12 because the land is so, like, it's under swamp so much 13 that it would take so much backfill just to build on it, 14 so. 15 The -- Stoney Point, well, like, there's - 16 - it's beautiful down there. 17 Q: Had you ever had occasion, Mr. 18 George, to go hunting at Stoney Point? 19 A: Yeah, I went hunting occasionally 20 there. 21 Q: And who would you go with? 22 A: My brothers, cousins. 23 Q: All right. What about any kind -- 24 had you ever had occasion to learn anything about various 25 other resources that are located at the land? The
1021 medicines, for example, that we've heard something about 2 here? 3 A: Yeah, I had a chance -- I went with 4 my brother. I can't recall the year that I went, well he 5 -- he -- we went down with a Elder, Rachel Shawkence and 6 she showed us what -- it's a ginseng root. And she 7 showed us how the flower looked, what to look for, just 8 to find that -- that ginseng root. 9 And then it would -- it only grew in two 10 (2) places in Stoney Point. We looked in both places. 11 We did find one but it was like -- it was small. It was 12 too small to pick because it takes a few years to grow, I 13 think. You can't pick it premature, it won't grow back 14 and that's like -- that's -- I did learn that, but that's 15 the only thing that I did learn from there. 16 Q: All Right. In order to -- to go onto 17 that land with Rachel Shawkence as you've just told us 18 and your brother, do you know whether there was any 19 permission that was obtained, for example, from the 20 Military in order to enter the lands? 21 A: Yeah, when we went -- we went through 22 the front gate and we didn't have any problem going in 23 there. I'm not sure if Rachel or Bernard had made 24 arrangements to that for us to be able to go in freely, 25 but we did go in freely and we didn't have an escort or
1031 anything like that, we were able to go in. 2 Q: The times that you hunted on that 3 land, did you have any difficulty accessing? 4 A: No, actually, no. I only went, I 5 think twice, though, I wasn't -- I'm not much of a 6 hunter, more of a fisher. 7 Q: More of a fisher? Is that you said? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you have occasion, Mr. George, to 10 attend at the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 11 A: Pardon? 12 Q: Did you ever have occasion to go down 13 to the Ipperwash Provincial Park as you were growing up 14 at any point? 15 A: When it was a campground? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Yeah, I went -- I went there as a -- 18 when I was a teenager. 19 Q: Had you ever been informed that there 20 may have been burial grounds there or any such thing? 21 A: No, I wasn't aware of anything like 22 that. 23 Q: Had you ever been told that some 24 people regarded that as part of the traditional territory 25 of Stoney Point?
1041 A: No, I wasn't aware of that either. 2 Q: That's not something that you were 3 told or that -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. No. The only burial ground 5 I knew was when Dan, the -- the one that was buried 6 there, that's the only part that I knew about any burial. 7 Q: Dan George, we're told, was buried 8 there in 1990. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And you attended that funeral, did 11 you? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Was there anything that -- that you 14 can recall from that event -- from that ceremony? 15 A: It was big, one (1) of the biggest 16 funerals I've been to. 17 Q: I see. 18 A: Actually, I think it is the biggest 19 one I've been to, so. 20 Q: All right. Do you know anything 21 about the arrangements that were made in order to have 22 that funeral there? 23 A: No, I wasn't aware of any -- I -- I 24 didn't even know that it was going on until it actually 25 took place.
1051 Q: Was -- I see you're -- I see you're 2 looking at the documents that you've had occasion to 3 review, I wonder if you just might maybe put those aside 4 for now though, Mr. George. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Sorry. 8 Q: As a result of that funeral in 1990 9 of Dan George, incidentally were -- are you related to, 10 or were you related to Dan George? 11 A: To my knowledge, even though my last 12 name's George, I don't know if I am nor not. 13 Q: What about Dudley George? Do you 14 know whether or not you are, or were related to him? 15 A: Yeah. He's a relative. 16 Q: I take it you would have been 17 familiar with him? 18 A: Yeah, yeah. I knew Dudley. 19 Q: I was asking you about the funeral in 20 1990 and as a result of that funeral, do you know what, 21 if any, impact that had on well, I guess, your people, 22 the people from Stoney Point? 23 A: Well, before that a lot of natives 24 have worked there, but that's as far as it went for 25 anybody, like, I never -- well, until then it wasn't
1061 pursued, I guess, to try and have any -- any sort of 2 involvement, I guess, until -- until that, but -- 3 Q: Are you -- are you suggesting that 4 after the funeral that there was greater activity insofar 5 as attempting to reclaim the land? 6 A: Yeah, like it kind of -- that's when 7 stuff started to move forward, I guess, and or, like 8 towards getting the land back, I guess, because we've -- 9 previous to that, it was just people went there to work. 10 Q: I see. Are you aware, Mr. George, 11 that there was certain community meetings that were held 12 at the Army Camp; that there was some discussion about 13 moving -- moving onto the range, for example? 14 A: No, I wasn't aware of anything like 15 that. 16 Q: And that, in fact, in May of 1993, 17 there was a group of people that did move onto the -- 18 onto the Army range? 19 A: Hmm hmm. I wasn't really aware of 20 that, either. 21 Q: And how did you become familiar with 22 that? 23 A: My brother had moved there, moved in 24 when they took it over. 25 Q: And that would be your brother --
1071 A: Burger. Stacey. 2 Q: All right. I take it, though, that 3 you would have had occasion to go -- go there and visit 4 or -- or such, from time to time? 5 A: Yes. I went and visited my brother, 6 time to time, for a few hours at a time. 7 Q: Anybody else? 8 A: At that particular time it was -- it 9 was mainly him I just went to see. 10 Q: I take it you had other relatives 11 there, though? 12 A: To my knowledge, yeah, there was a 13 few other -- a few other people that were staying there 14 and ... 15 Q: People like who? Do you recall any 16 of them at this time? 17 A: I think Dave -- Dave Cloud and 18 Charlie Cloud. I believe they were staying there. They 19 were staying close to my brother. 20 Q: And would they be the same 21 approximate age as yourself? 22 A: Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're 23 the same age. Maybe a year older, two (2) years older. 24 Q: And you mentioned that you would go 25 and visit for a few hours at a time. I take it you
1081 didn't stay there? 2 A: No, I never -- I never stayed -- 3 Q: What about stay overnight or 4 anything? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Any reason for that? 7 A: I was going to school at that time. 8 Q: Okay. During that time, Mr. George, 9 did you see whether or not there was any Military 10 personnel around? 11 A: Yes, I seen them time to time. They 12 were around the barracks area, but they never -- they 13 never came to where my brother was, where he had his -- 14 like he had a tent set up. He was staying in a tent and 15 they never -- they never came, like, in the area that he 16 was. 17 Q: All right. I'm just going to see if 18 we can put a map of the Military Reserve or the Camp up 19 on the screen. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: This diagram, Mr. George, has been 24 marked in these Proceedings as P-40. Do you recognize 25 that, first of all?
1091 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. There might be a laser printer 3 just -- a pointer, rather, just on the table there in 4 front of you. And if you could maybe indicate on the map 5 where it was that you recall your brother had his camp? 6 A: Is this the front? Like where the 7 entrance is off the Army Camp Road, is that what that is? 8 Q: That's what we've been told, Mr. 9 George. 10 A: And this is 21? 11 Q: And that would be Highway 21, yes, I 12 agree with you. 13 A: Okay, well, he was around in this 14 area -- wait. Okay, these are barracks? 15 Q: Those -- 16 A: -- and those are barracks? 17 Q: Those would be the rifle range, I 18 think, in sort of the middle there. 19 A: Okay, well he was around this area. 20 Like, right along in here, because I believe there's like 21 a -- I don't know if this is to indicate a -- like a 22 river or creek, but he was close to that, off of Highway 23 21. 24 Q: Okay. And when you would see the 25 Military personnel, where would they be?
1101 A: At the barracks. 2 Q: So they stayed in the barrack area? 3 A: Yeah. Occasionally they would drive 4 -- there was a line at -- like right beside where the 5 range is there's trees, a lot of trees in there. They 6 would drive down that road that was beside those, but 7 they wouldn't -- they wouldn't come on closer like where 8 the range was. 9 Q: And during that time did you see any 10 interaction between that Military personnel and any of 11 the people that were occupying the ranges? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you have any kind of interaction 14 with the Military Police at all? 15 A: No, I didn't, because there was an 16 entrance around here and that's how I got in to go and 17 see my brother. 18 Q: Okay. Just for the record, you're 19 indicating an entrance somewhere adjacent to Highway 21 20 perhaps toward the middle of the diagram? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: We were also told, Mr. George, that 23 there was an allegation of a helicopter shooting in 1993; 24 do you know anything about that at all? 25 A: The only thing I know is what I heard
1111 on the news and it's not even very clear what I heard or 2 what I remember from it. But I -- that's as much as I 3 know. 4 Q: And in the course of visiting with 5 your brother and others within the range, do you recall 6 whether you might have heard any discussion about that 7 incident? 8 A: No. I don't recall anything like -- 9 of hearing about that. 10 Q: Speaking of discussions of those in 11 occupation of the Park, had you heard any discussions 12 about what their plans would be beyond living on the 13 ranges in tents I think you told us? 14 A: Can you repeat that please? 15 Q: Yeah. If I can. 16 A: Sorry. 17 Q: Had you heard any talk about what the 18 people that were living on the ranges, your brother and 19 others, what it was that they intended to do next, if 20 anything? 21 A: Well, the talk was always -- the 22 whole purpose was to try and -- well, to have their land 23 returned. So, but as to what they were going to do next, 24 I don't -- I don't recall anything about what they were 25 going to do next.
1121 Q: Are you aware, for example, that -- 2 and we've heard other testimony on -- on the issue that 3 there were various attempts to engage different 4 governments in discussions about this? 5 A: No. I'm not aware of any of that. 6 Q: About walks to Ottawa to try to get a 7 message across or a message out? 8 A: Yeah. I heard about the walks to 9 Ottawa. 10 Q: Did you participate in that at all? 11 A: No. 12 Q: We've heard something about letter 13 writing campaigns where the issue about seeking the 14 return of these lands was published. 15 A: Yeah. No, I didn't hear anything 16 about that either. 17 Q: And you wouldn't have participated in 18 that -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- I take it? 21 A: No. 22 Q: In 1995, Mr. George, at the end of 23 July, the people that were living on the range we are 24 told, had then moved into the barracks area, to take over 25 the barracks area.
1131 A: Okay. 2 Q: You're aware of that? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And could you tell us how you came to 5 learn that? 6 A: I didn't hear about it until after it 7 happened. Until -- 8 Q: You weren't part of the group that -- 9 that went in? 10 A: No. Until they had -- they had moved 11 in there. 12 Q: And do you know when it was you might 13 have heard this and how it was you heard this? 14 A: I don't actually really recall how. 15 Probably just on the reserve. Usually when something 16 happens the next day you hear about it. 17 Q: I take it in July you wouldn't have 18 been in school. 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you ever have occasion to go to 21 the barracks area after it was taken over, after July of 22 1995? 23 A: Yeah. My brother had a -- he had 24 moved into the barracks there so I went to visit him when 25 I could.
1141 Q: I take it on more than one (1) 2 occasion? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And during the time that you were 5 there, did you have an opportunity to go hunting again as 6 you had -- as you've told us, been hunting when you were 7 younger? 8 A: I -- I know I could have, like, a lot 9 easier or not easier, but I could have, but I -- as I 10 stated previously, I'm not much of a hunter, haven't 11 really been so... 12 Q: What about others? Are you aware of 13 whether others that were now living in the Army barracks, 14 whether or not they were -- they were hunting? 15 A: Oh, I -- yeah. A lot of people were 16 doing hunting because even in Kettle Point there was a 17 lot of deer, like a lot of people had deers hanging up 18 that they had -- they were able to get. 19 Q: So people from Kettle Point would 20 go -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- would go to -- to Stoney Point to 23 go hunting? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And you're aware then that people
1151 from Stoney Point as well would also go hunting out 2 there? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Do you know where they might have 5 kept firearms that they would have used in terms of 6 hunting? 7 A: No idea. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: During the time that you visited your 11 brother and -- and others in the barracks area, did you 12 see any weapons around? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you hear any talk about weapons 15 at all? And -- and when I say, weapons, I -- I mean 16 specifically, firearms. 17 A: Specifically firearms? No. 18 Q: I take it as well, Mr. George, that 19 you were aware that there was a difference in views, if I 20 can put it that way about how to accomplish the objective 21 of getting the land back as between some of the people in 22 Stoney Point and some of the people at Kettle Point? 23 A: Hmm hmm. I -- I feel that some of 24 the people felt it was taking -- nothing was getting 25 done. I guess I could say that. They felt that nothing
1161 would get done if they kept just -- without action, I 2 guess, without -- without being recognized, so they -- 3 yeah. 4 Q: Did you have a view on that, Mr. 5 George? Did you have a view as to how things should be 6 done? 7 A: Yeah, I -- I feel that things are set 8 a certain way so that it's -- everything stays in order, 9 I guess. 10 Q: Well, let me -- let me put it this 11 way. Did you support the way things were unfolding at 12 Stoney Point? 13 A: You mean where they had gone in and 14 taken over the -- the Army Base? 15 Q: Okay. Let's -- let's ask about that 16 first. 17 A: I -- I don't know if I can really 18 have too much to say because I don't know how -- how they 19 went in and took it over on either occasion where they 20 went in and they were just along the -- the one (1) area 21 where the range was. 22 And when they went into the barracks, I 23 don't know the way that they went in that way and I never 24 sat in any meetings, so I don't know if I can really say 25 how I feel about that.
1171 Q: All right. And that's fair enough. 2 Did it seem to you that -- that some of those folks had a 3 different political outlook than you did? 4 A: Which folks? 5 Q: Well, the folks that were first on 6 the range and then into the -- into the barracks, your 7 brother and -- and others. 8 A: That they had a different -- a 9 different view on how I -- how I viewed it? 10 Q: Well a -- a different political 11 view -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- than -- than the way you might 14 have seen things? 15 A: Okay, well, yeah. I think they did 16 because they didn't agree with how council was being run 17 in Kettle Point. They didn't -- they didn't like how the 18 chief was running it; they didn't feel that he was doing 19 anything, that he wasn't doing his job. And I feel that 20 he's a good Chief, you know, that's -- that's how I feel; 21 that -- that he was doing his job. 22 Q: Okay. But there was a difference of 23 opinion, is -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Fair enough. What about moving into
1181 the Ipperwash Provincial Park? How did you become aware 2 of that, first of all, and when did you become aware of 3 that? 4 A: When did I become aware of it? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I'm not sure exactly how I'm -- how I 9 was aware of it, how I found out that they moved in 10 there. I'm not particularly sure. 11 Q: Did you then go to the Park at any 12 time? 13 A: I don't believe I have. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: After the people moved into the Park, 19 I take it you have no recollection of going there, of 20 seeing them, or visiting with anybody? 21 A: No, I just knew that there were 22 people that were -- that had taken it over and that they 23 were down there. So I don't recall going in -- going 24 down there, no. 25 Q: All right. And on the day that
1191 Dudley George was -- was shot and killed, I understand 2 that you had been visiting with your brother, Bernard? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I wonder if you could just tell us 5 about that and what time of day was this, and what 6 happened? 7 A: It was in the evening. I'm not sure 8 about the time. And I was going to my brothers in Kettle 9 Point, my brother being Cecil Bernard. 10 And when I arrived to his place, he told 11 me that -- that the police were moving in to Stoney Point 12 and that they had -- well, he heard over the scanner that 13 they're -- the police are moving in and that they had 14 warned the occupants there that they were moving in and 15 they're moving in with force and that the women and the 16 children should be evacuated. 17 And Bernard didn't feel that they had 18 given this warning, so he wanted to go there and -- just 19 to make sure that they had received that warning. 20 Q: And how was it that he had heard 21 this? 22 A: Over a police scanner, or a scanner, 23 I don't know if it's a police -- well, it's just a 24 scanner, it can hear all the frequencies. 25 Q: And can you recall specifically the
1201 kind of -- kind of warning? Was it something that you 2 heard, first of all or something that was relayed to you? 3 A: This is what had been relayed to me 4 through Bernard. I didn't hear it. 5 Q: And he indicated to you that a 6 warning was issued of some -- 7 A: Yeah, to the -- 8 Q: -- some description? 9 A: Yes. It -- it was -- it was issued 10 to the occupants in Stoney Point and he didn't feel that 11 it was given. 12 Q: And what did he say about that, as 13 you recall today, Mr. George? What did your brother say 14 about that? 15 A: He just said he had to go down there 16 and make sure that they got this warning, because he knew 17 as well as I, that there was kids down there and there 18 was women down there. 19 Q: So what happened after that? 20 A: Afer that, I was -- like I was just 21 walking into his house and he told me all of this, that 22 he was going down there. So I -- I told him that I was 23 coming with him. So after -- after he told us meet and 24 we got in the -- got into his truck. I -- I, myself and 25 Bernard and Roseanne.
1211 Q: And Roseanne is? 2 A: His wife. 3 Q: Okay. Roseanne George? 4 A: Bressette. 5 Q: Bressette? So you get in his truck 6 at his residence on Kettle Point and where do you go from 7 there? 8 A: We went to -- we were heading to the 9 Provincial Park. 10 Q: Do you recall the -- the route that 11 you would have taken and whether or not you had met 12 anybody as you were heading there? 13 A: From his house, I believe the road is 14 -- -- called the side road, I'm not sure. We drove up 15 that to another road that is centre side road to 16 Ipperwash, then towards the beach. 17 Q: When you say "Ipperwash," if I could 18 just interrupt you momentarily, Ipperwash Road? 19 A: Yes, Ipperwash Road then we drove 20 towards the beach. 21 Q: And then Ipperwash Road, again 22 forgive me, would run approximately from Ravenswood at 23 Highway 21 approximately due north to the -- to Lake 24 Huron? 25 A: No, that's not the road that we went
1221 down -- wait -- Yeah, Ipperwash runs to Lake Huron, yes. 2 And then we turned on East Parkway I think, or something 3 Parkway. 4 Q: Okay. It might start as West Parkway 5 and then change to East Parkway. 6 A: Yeah, yeah. 7 Q: Go ahead. 8 A: And -- and okay then we drove that -- 9 in that direction and about a mile and a half from -- 10 from the Provincial Park is where we were -- where we 11 were stopped and told that we couldn't go any further. 12 Q: All right. Who stopped you and told 13 you you couldn't go any further? 14 A: We were stopped by, like, a police 15 barricade. They were -- had the road completely blocked 16 off and -- 17 Q: Can you describe that barricade at 18 all? 19 A: A lot of cop cars, like, I don't 20 know. It was -- I don't know how many cop cars were 21 there but like we couldn't get -- there was no way even 22 if we tried to get through, we couldn't, because it was 23 just completely -- the road was shut off and -- 24 Q: I take it that there were police 25 offic -- that were police officers around as well?
1231 A: Yes. There was, like, a lot of 2 police there as well. 3 Q: And can you describe how they were -- 4 how they were dressed? 5 A: In SWAT -- SWAT gear, like -- 6 Q: Can you tell us -- 7 A: They didn't have handguns. They had 8 assault rifles and riot gear. 9 Q: Okay. I wonder if you might just 10 take a moment and describe what you mean by riot gear? 11 A: Riot gear; they had like the hat -- 12 not a normal police helmet, they had like a hard hat with 13 a shield on it, bullet proof -- bullet proof vests on, 14 shields and assault rifles. 15 Q: Okay. I take it you know something 16 about firearms? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Can you tell us anything further 19 about these weapons other than they were assault rifles? 20 Could you describe for example the make or calibre or 21 anything like that? 22 A: No. I -- I know guns but I don't 23 know like what kind of guns they were. 24 Q: Okay. And speaking of guns, your 25 brother Bernard, when he testified here, told us that at
1241 that particular time he was a collector of -- of 2 firearms. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And that he had firearms at his 5 residence; you know that? 6 A: Oh yeah, yeah. 7 Q: And on that occasion when you 8 accompanied Bernard and -- and his wife Roseanne to go 9 and -- to go to the Park as you were telling us, did he 10 take any weapons with him? 11 A: No, he didn't. 12 Q: Were there any in the vehicle? 13 A: No, there wasn't. 14 Q: Okay. Was there any discussion about 15 taking any weapons? 16 A: No, there wasn't. 17 Q: So go ahead. What -- what happens. 18 A: After we were turned around by the 19 police, we went nearly a quarter mile in the direction 20 that we just had came and me and Bernard exited the 21 vehicle and went towards Lake Huron. And we went through 22 somebody, like, somebody's -- went down somebody's land 23 way and went down onto the beach. 24 Q: Okay. Can you describe what -- well, 25 do -- do you know what time it was at -- approximately at
1251 this time? 2 A: No, I don't even know. It was -- I 3 believe it was -- the sun had gone down. 4 Q: And when you and Bernard then exited 5 the vehicle and went down to the beach of Lake Huron, did 6 you take anything with you, either of you? 7 A: I don't -- I know I didn't have 8 anything, I don't remember what he was carrying. And 9 just from reading my statement, when we met my brother he 10 said that he had radios, but I don't -- I don't recall. 11 Q: What's the next thing that you do 12 recall, Mr. George? 13 A: Okay, from when we left or we got -- 14 exited the vehicle and we went towards the Park because 15 that was our whole purpose of going down there was to 16 warn -- warn them that they were moving in and that they 17 had -- we had to make sure that they got the warning, 18 like that the women and children got the warning that 19 they were moving in. 20 So we exited the vehicle, went along the 21 beach towards Stoney Point and that's when I -- right 22 there I'm -- met my brother Stacey George. 23 Q: And where did you meet your brother? 24 A: On the beach -- on the beachfront and 25 he had a -- a fire going.
1261 Q: Okay. 2 A: I don't recall how long we talked to 3 him. It wasn't -- it wasn't very long, though, when I -- 4 when I ran into hi -- or when I met him. 5 Q: There's a diagram just over your 6 right shoulder that has been marked in these proceedings 7 as P-23. Do you recognize that, first of all? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: And that is the intersection of East 10 Parkway and Army Camp Road? Yes? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And to the -- on the upper right-hand 13 side of that diagram is what has been referred to as the 14 sandy parking lot; do you agree with that? 15 A: You mean right here? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there's a line of bushes. I take 19 it that that's a fence line as well that separates the 20 lot from the balance of the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Does that help you out at all 23 in terms of being able to assist us as to where you met 24 your brother Stacey? 25 A: Yes that is, I met my -- I met my
1271 brother right in that area right there. 2 Q: Okay, and you're indicating with the 3 laser pointer at the extreme top right end -- right side, 4 rather, of the diagram. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you indicated he had a fire 7 going? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: I take it that fire was to the -- on 10 the east side of the fence? 11 A: Meaning here? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: In your discussion with him do you 17 recall what that was about? I take it you would have at 18 least informed him of what you had known at this point? 19 A: Pardon? 20 Q: That is to say you -- you would have 21 told him what you had been told by Cecil, by Bernard? 22 A: Yes. All -- when we -- when we got 23 there, Bernard was the one that was explaining him -- to 24 him what he had heard over the radio -- over the scanner. 25 Q: Was there anybody else around other
1281 than your brother Stacey? 2 A: I think there was two (2) other 3 individuals, but I don't really recall who they were. 4 Q: Okay. And what's the next thing that 5 happens? 6 A: After that me and -- me and my 7 brother Bernard walked to the front -- yeah, right at the 8 gate where there was Occupants right here and we talked 9 to them right in this area. 10 Q: Okay, you're indicating just around 11 the turnstile area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the Occupants in the Park that 14 you've just mentioned, do you recall who they were? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Do you recall how many of them there 17 were? 18 A: No, I can't even recall. 19 Q: Do you recall how the area might have 20 been lit up at all, if it was, Mr. George? 21 A: I think there might have been a fire 22 around here. 23 Q: Okay. You're indicating to the east 24 side of the -- the fence line, somewhere near the -- the 25 turnstile area?
1291 A: Yes. 2 Q: And as it was your intention, or at 3 least Bernard's intention to go up there and to ensure 4 that a warning was provided with respect to evacuating 5 women and children, did you -- did you notice whether 6 there were women and children present? 7 A: To my recollection, I believe that 8 there was still women and children there when we arrived 9 there. 10 Q: And as a result of Bernard giving 11 this information, I take it he would have explained, as 12 well, to the occupiers as you put it, at the turnstile 13 that -- just what he had finished telling Stacey? 14 A: Yeah, yeah, that's -- yeah, that was 15 our whole purpose of going there, to just ensure that 16 that's -- that they had got that warning and to our, 17 like, to me, I don't believe that they did receive that. 18 Q: Okay. Did anybody say anything about 19 whether or not they did, to your recollection? 20 A: I think they -- somebody had said 21 that they never received anything. I can't recall who it 22 was. 23 Q: As a result of giving them that 24 information, did you see whether -- well, did you see 25 what was done?
1301 A: Oh, the -- there wasn't too many kids 2 or women that were left there. 3 Q: All right. And do you know what they 4 did with the information that was given to them? 5 A: Yeah, they asked that our -- when 6 Bernard had said that and that they were moving in with 7 force, that then I -- I believe that they -- they really 8 believed that they were moving in, because they had 9 always felt that they -- the police were going to be 10 moving in, but they weren't sure when and... 11 Q: And as a result of their getting this 12 information, did you see what actions, if any, the people 13 in occupation of the Park had taken? 14 A: I believe that there was -- I can't 15 recall what it was, but they did have some people that 16 were told that they have to leave, like, little kids and 17 stuff like that; that they were evacuated. 18 Q: And then we've heard something, Mr. 19 George, about once the altercation did occur that there 20 were rocks being thrown, there were sticks thrown. Did 21 you see whether, for example, there was anybody 22 collecting those kinds of items? 23 A: No, I don't really, because I didn't 24 -- I didn't have too much time to go, like, from when I 25 left my brother's -- Bernard's until we got there, it was
1311 already dark by the time I got there, so I didn't see any 2 of -- any of this taking place. 3 Q: Okay, so Bernard gives the people in 4 occupation this information, the police are coming, 5 they're going to move in, in force -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: You should make sure that the women 8 and children are gone. 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: Right. What do you guys do at that 11 point? 12 A: Well, Bernard -- me and Bernard 13 wanted to see if the police were, like, if they were 14 going to start moving in. So we walked from the front of 15 the gate down -- down this -- I'm not sure which -- 16 Q: You're indicating you went -- well, 17 which is -- we've been calling it west, and I recognize 18 that it's not true west, but you walked west on East 19 Parkway Drive? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And how far did you go? 22 A: Maybe a half a kilometre. 23 Q: What did you see, if anything? 24 A: At first we never seen anything. 25 Then we sat there for -- for -- I'm not sure amount --
1321 how long the amount of time was that we sat there. But 2 then we seen the police moving towards us, towards the 3 Provincial Park. 4 Q: And tell us about -- 5 A: And they were about -- 6 Q: -- that if you would -- 7 A: -- a kilometre down the road. 8 Q: -- Mr. George. 9 A: Okay. Well, like I said earlier, 10 they had all their riot gear on and they were walking 11 shoulder to shoulder and they were taking up not only the 12 road, but the side of the road as well. And they were 13 moving in -- they were walking towards the Provincial 14 Park. 15 Q: And in order to cover the road and 16 the shoulders of the road as you've indicated, as they 17 were walking shoulder to shoulder, how many officers 18 would you estimate were standing shoulder to shoulder? 19 A: It would have to take at least twenty 20 (20) to twenty-five (25). 21 Q: When you seen these officers marching 22 shoulder to shoulder covering the road as you've 23 indicated, what did you think? 24 A: Well, seeing the barricade earlier I 25 didn't -- I didn't grasp how -- how many there actually
1331 could be there until I actually seen that many moving on 2 the road towards the Park. 3 Q: Could you estimate how many you would 4 have seen? I know you've told us that it would have been 5 twenty (20) to twenty-five (25) in order to cover the 6 road. I take it there were more behind them. 7 A: There were a lot more behind them. 8 Like I could see a lot behind them. 9 Q: And what kind of lighting allowed you 10 to see these individuals? 11 A: There was a street light on the right 12 hand side. 13 Q: Are you able to estimate for us 14 today, Mr. George, as to how many police you would have 15 seen? 16 A: How many I seen? Probably about two 17 hundred (200). 18 Q: Carry on, what happens? 19 A: Well, as soon as we started to see 20 them coming, Bernard -- Bernard told me to run back to 21 the front of the gate of the Park and tell them that they 22 were on their way, that the police were marching and that 23 they were coming, and for them to get ready. 24 Q: Get ready to what? 25 A: I don't know; that's what he told me.
1341 He just told me to go back to the Park and tell them that 2 the police were moving in and for whatever they -- 3 Q: Did you go back to the Park? 4 A: Yes, I went back to the front of the 5 gate. Then after that I -- I went to see where my 6 brother had his fire when I met him in between the gate 7 and his fire that he had going. I met him around 8 halfway. And I told him that -- 9 Q: Let me just -- let me just slow you 10 down here if I may for a second, Mr. George. How far 11 down the road -- you indicated you were -- 12 13 A: About a half a -- 14 Q: -- about a half a kilometre? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And so you run back to the front 17 area. I take it that's the turnstile area you told us 18 about earlier. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you recall who it was that you 21 would have spoke to in order to give the information that 22 Cecil or Bernard asked you to relay? 23 A: I -- I don't recall who it was that I 24 -- I met with down there because there was a lot of new - 25 - like new faces that I hadn't seen or that I -- I don't
1351 even know. 2 Q: Approximately how many people -- are 3 you able to tell us now? 4 A: How many -- 5 Q: As to how many you would have seen of 6 the occupiers in the Park when you ran back to give them 7 this information? 8 A: There was maybe twenty-five (25) 9 maybe. 10 Q: Do you recall whether any of them 11 were holding anything or carrying anything? 12 A: I don't even recall. 13 Q: And aside from the fire that you've 14 told us about that gave some light to the area. 15 Do you recall seeing vehicles parked there 16 that would have been able to shine their lights down or 17 perhaps somebody with spotlights? 18 A: I don't -- I don't recall. 19 Q: Okay. So you give them this 20 information and I take it from what you've just told us 21 that you would have then head -- headed back down toward 22 the beach? 23 A: Yeah. I -- I was going to look for 24 my brother to -- inform him that the police were moving 25 in as well. And I spoke to him briefly, I told him that
1361 I was going along the beach so like check that way as 2 well. And like he don't even remember me talking to him, 3 so... 4 Q: Can you tell us what you were 5 thinking or feeling at that -- at that time? 6 A: At that -- I don't even know how I 7 was feeling actually. 8 Q: And did -- 9 A: So I didn't -- I didn't like involve 10 myself or anything. I was going there just like to 11 support my brother, like, be with him so he wasn't going 12 there by himself and I knew how many police were there. 13 And I knew he wasn't --he wouldn't go 14 there --or he was going and he wouldn't, like, turn 15 around, so I just -- I went with him. 16 Q: And when your brother Bernard told 17 you to go back and get this information to the people in 18 the Park; do you recall whether he had anything in his 19 hands at that time? 20 A: No, I don't recall. 21 Q: And you've told us that it was then 22 your intention, and as you told Stacey, you were going to 23 go down the beach? 24 A: Yeah, I was going to go check on the 25 beach to see if any police were coming up that way as
1371 well. 2 Q: And I take it you did that, you went 3 down to the beach area? 4 A: Yeah, I went -- I went down to the 5 beach and I -- I don't recall how long I was down there. 6 While I was down there, I heard -- I heard a lot of noise 7 starting to take place. 8 Q: What kind of noises? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Like yelling and I don't know. 13 Q: Okay. How long did those noises go 14 on? 15 A: I don't even recall that, either. 16 Q: Okay, what happens after that? 17 A: It went silent for a little -- like, 18 not long. And at that point I didn't know what -- like, 19 I didn't know what to think or what to do. And then I 20 heard shots fired. 21 Q: Can you describe those for us? 22 A: I heard a few -- I'm pretty sure I 23 heard a few shots go off then shortly after that I heard 24 a lot of shots for -- I don't know. I can't explain how 25 that -- the only way I could explain is on TV when you
1381 see a war scene going on, that many shots, when they're 2 in full battle; that's how many shots I heard. 3 Q: Okay. Let me just ask you a few 4 questions about your -- your earlier response, when you 5 said you heard a few shots go off, how many is that, in 6 your estimation? 7 A: Probably about eight (8), maybe. 8 Q: And I take it that there was a break 9 between that? You -- you then said "shortly after" you 10 heard a lot of shots? 11 A: Yeah, it was -- well, it wasn't much 12 of a break, though. It was -- I heard a few shots and 13 then a lot of shots. 14 Q: And were you able at all to -- to 15 make an estimation as to how many "a lot of shots" is? 16 How many you heard? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I'd say a hundred (100) to two 21 hundred (200) repeatedly. 22 Q: Could you tell us, Mr. George, 23 whether the one hundred (100) to two hundred (200) shots 24 that you heard might have been from an automatic weapon? 25 Do you know what an automatic weapon is?
1391 A: You hold the trigger down and it 2 fires repeatedly. 3 Q: And is that something that you might 4 have heard? 5 A: Yeah. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: After you heard those shots, Mr. 10 George, what did you -- what did you do? 11 A: After I heard those shots, I became 12 really scared, terrified, because I was by myself for 13 one. And my -- my brothers were -- were in the area 14 where the shots were being fired. 15 So after I heard the shots the only thing 16 I could do was try and find cover. So I ran in the 17 direction that I was previously dropped off at, towards, 18 I believe it's Ravenswood Road. I didn't -- I ran maybe 19 a quarter of a kilometre, maybe not even that, up into a 20 sand -- a sand hill and I laid on the top of that hill 21 there. 22 Q: And as you're laying on this sand 23 hill, I -- I take it this is just off the beach? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it would be east toward Kettle
1401 Point? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: All right. And as you're laying up 4 there, do you -- do you know how long you might have 5 stayed there, first of all? 6 A: No, I don't. I don't remember. 7 Q: Did you -- did you hear any further 8 sounds coming from the area that you've described as a 9 lot of noise and then the -- the shooting? 10 A: Well, in between from where I was at 11 and the road, East Parkway or whatever road that is, I 12 heard -- I heard some cops -- I don't how many -- they 13 weren't that far from me, maybe here to that back wall 14 there, on top of the stage; that's about maybe the 15 distance they were from me and I could hear them saying 16 that they -- they have to check along the beach to see if 17 there's anyone along there. 18 So I just laid -- I just laid there until 19 I didn't hear them, so I don't know how long I was there. 20 Q: Okay. The area that you referred to 21 in the room, the -- the back wall? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: If I suggested to you that that was 24 forty (40) feet? 25 A: That's about right, about forty (40)
1411 feet. 2 Q: Did you see the officers that you 3 heard? 4 A: No, I didn't see them. 5 Q: Okay. How did you know they were 6 officers? 7 A: Because I heard a radio. No, I 8 didn't hear a radio, I just -- I heard them say that they 9 have to check along the beach to see if there's any -- 10 any -- anyone along the beach and I knew if it was any -- 11 any natives then they wouldn't be looking for any cops 12 because they never had any weapons, so I knew it wasn't 13 them. 14 I knew it was -- plus, I couldn't 15 recognize the voice, well, I don't know, it could have -- 16 yeah, I didn't -- I just knew it wasn't -- it wasn't any 17 natives, so I -- 18 Q: All right. And aside from these 19 words that you heard them say, did you hear anything 20 further? 21 A: No, I just heard them walk -- 22 Q: And -- and I'm sorry, did you tell us 23 the number of individuals that you heard? 24 A: There was, I'd say, two (2) to four 25 (4) -- two (2) to four (4) different voices I --
1421 Q: Excuse me one (1) second. 2 Commissioner, I wonder if this might be an appropriate 3 time for our afternoon break, I was just asking Mr. 4 Millar. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was hoping 6 to go about quarter to 4:00, but if you think this is a 7 good time, we'll break now. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: We certainly can, 9 yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 11 let's break now. Okay? 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 3:35 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 3:55 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, 22 Commissioner. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: Mr. George, before the break we had
1431 left off and you had just finished telling us that you, 2 after hearing this -- this number of shots, became quite 3 scared -- terrified, I believe you'd said; that you were 4 concerned about your brothers who were in the vicinity of 5 where you heard the shots come from and that you then 6 went to find cover. 7 And as you were laying on the sand hill 8 you heard a number of voices come by that you believed to 9 be police officers? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: What did you do after that? 12 A: Well, I laid there until I didn't 13 hear -- hear anybody. Then -- 14 Q: Do you have any idea how long you 15 might have laid there, Mr. George? 16 A: Half hour. I don't even know, maybe 17 longer. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: After I didn't hear any voices, I 22 still didn't feel that it was safe that I was --like 23 where I was, because I didn't want to be -- I didn't want 24 to be found -- found there in the area. I just wanted to 25 get -- get to a place where I felt that I'd be safer.
1441 Q: And who did you think you would be 2 found by and who was it you needed to be safe from? 3 A: The police. I didn't want to be 4 found by them because of what -- it -- the gun -- the 5 gunshots that I'd just heard. And so where I was, I 6 didn't -- I didn't feel safe at all, because I was by 7 myself. I didn't have any weapons on me. I didn't have 8 nothing. 9 Q: And speaking of weapons, and before 10 we leave that, during the time that you were at the Park, 11 and spoke to the occupiers do you -- did you note whether 12 or not they had any firearms? 13 A: I -- I never seen any. 14 Q: Or hear any discussion about that? 15 A: I didn't hear any discussion about it 16 either. 17 Q: Any discussion with your brother, 18 Stacey? 19 A: No. I had -- I -- when I talked to 20 him, I didn't talk to him much, Bernard was the one that 21 did most of the talking. And the second -- the second 22 time I seen him, I -- it was brief and I know he didn't 23 have any weapons, either. I know that for a fact, he 24 never had any. 25 Q: So you didn't feel safe there. And
1451 what did you do? 2 A: After -- after I laid there and I -- 3 I didn't hear anybody around me, I got -- I got up and I 4 took off -- I was wearing a camouflage coat. And I took 5 that off as I was running towards Ravenswood Road. I 6 think that's what it's called, I'm not sure. 7 And I was heading west. 8 Q: Would this be on the beach? 9 A: Yes, on the beach. 10 Q: Yes, go ahead. 11 A: I ran along the beach until -- like, 12 I -- I didn't know how far I had to go or what until I 13 felt safe, but I seen the chief, chief of Kettle Point, 14 Tom Bressette, and Gerald -- Gerald George, that's my 15 cousin, and Roseanne and her sister and -- 16 Q: That would be Roseanne -- Roseanne -- 17 A: Bressette. 18 Q: -- Bressette, your sister-in-law? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: I'm sorry, your -- and her sister? 21 A: Her sister. I'm not sure of her 22 correct name. Alls I know her by is Gig (phonetic). 23 Q: Gig? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Right.
1461 A: I seen them and -- 2 Q: And where about did you see them? 3 A: On the beach, at the end of 4 Ravenswood Road, I think. I'm not the -- I'm not correct 5 on the name of the road. 6 Q: Okay. Would it be correct to say 7 that there is a store just -- just up aways from the 8 beach, known as Wallygators (phonetic), we've heard 9 something about that? 10 A: Yeah, it's just like a bar and grill, 11 I guess. Yeah, it -- it's right at the end of there. 12 Right on the beach; that's where I -- 13 Q: So you met Chief Tom Bressette and 14 Gerald George who were on the beach? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: What were they doing there? 17 A: They had -- had their cars parked and 18 they were -- they were facing towards Ipperwash -- the 19 Park. I'm not -- but I'm pretty sure they were there 20 just -- I don't know. I don't remember any conversation 21 I had with them, like, what -- what they -- what they 22 were doing there or anything. 23 It was kind of obvious that they were 24 there and they -- like that's as far as Tom could really 25 go anyway.
1471 Q: And why -- why was that? When you 2 say that was as far as Tom could really go, why was that 3 so, Mr. George? 4 A: Well, he couldn't go to the -- to the 5 Park because he's a -- he's the chief. Well, I don't 6 know. There was all -- there was -- 7 Q: There was the conflict -- 8 A: -- conflict -- 9 Q: -- you've told us about? 10 A: Yeah, and well he knew that me and 11 Bernard had went there and Bernard at the time was a 12 councillor with Kettle Point. And as well as he's a good 13 friend of Bernard's so -- but I -- I don't recall what -- 14 what they had said or anything like that why they were 15 there. 16 Q: Do you recall what you might have 17 said? I take it you would have told them about what you 18 had just seen and heard? 19 A: Yeah. And I told them what -- what 20 had happened and Roseanne was really upset and worried 21 about Bernard. And I -- I just told her, Well, I 22 couldn't -- I couldn't do anything. There was nothing 23 that I could do. And my cousin said, Well, yeah there -- 24 well you know, there wasn't -- there wasn't nothing I 25 could do.
1481 Q: Do you know whether anybody among the 2 group that you would have now ran into or bumped into at 3 that time, whether or not they had anything like a police 4 scanner or scanner I should say? 5 A: Bernard always had one in his truck. 6 It was -- it was attached to his truck so that was in the 7 truck probably at the time, it was probably on. 8 Q: Do you recall whether there was any 9 further information that was being -- being relayed or 10 delivered? 11 A: Well, I believe that they heard over 12 the scanner that -- I think they heard three (3) people 13 were shot and several wounded. And that they had heard 14 that Bernard was one (1) of the -- one of the people that 15 were shot. 16 Q: I take it they would have heard this 17 before you arrived there -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- and that would have explained your 20 sister-in-law Roseanne's -- 21 A: Yeah, yeah. 22 Q: -- upset condition. 23 A: Oh yeah. She was really upset. 24 Q: And as a result of hearing this 25 information, what happened?
1491 A: Well, Roseanne from that point she 2 wanted to -- she wanted to find out for sure. And 3 hearing over the scanner was -- wasn't a definite answer. 4 So she wanted to go to the police Detachment in Forest to 5 see if she could get any answers. 6 Q: Okay, go ahead. 7 A: From there we -- we got in the 8 vehicle which -- I mean they was myself, Roseanne and Gig 9 and we drove -- 10 Q: Just incidently, Gig is Deanna 11 Bressette we're told. 12 A: Okay, Deanna Bressette. 13 Q: Does that -- does that help you out 14 at all? 15 A: I still don't know either. I've 16 never known her by her correct name so. 17 Q: Fair enough. In any event the three 18 (3) of you get into the vehicle. 19 A: And, yeah, we all -- we got in the 20 vehicle and we drove towards Wallygators. I'm not sure 21 of that road, the name of that road, up towards 22 Ravenswood. 23 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that 24 that's Ipperwash Drive. Does that help at all? 25 A: Ipperwash Drive, yeah. Okay, we
1501 drove up Ipperwash Drive towards -- 2 Q: And just incidently where were you 3 situate in the vehicle? 4 A: I was in the back -- back of the 5 truck on the left-hand side behind the driver. I was 6 sitting in the back of the truck in the cab part and 7 there wasn't a camper on it. So it was just like -- 8 Q: An open pickup bed? 9 A: Yeah, an open pickup bed. And we 10 were driving towards Highway 21 and there was a barricade 11 there. Like with -- there was police there. And we were 12 stopped and being like scared, terrified what would 13 happen if they found me in the back. 14 I hid from them on the side, on the left- 15 hand side of the truck with my back facing the edge of 16 the truck and looking towards the right side of the 17 truck, just laying on -- on my side. 18 And when we were stopped there was a -- I 19 don't -- I don't recall how many officers were there or 20 what they -- what kind of firearms they had or anything 21 they were wearing. But there -- there was a woman 22 officer that was questioning Roseanne and she didn't 23 question her very long. 24 And she briefly looked in the back with 25 her flashlight, she didn't see me and she let Roseanne
1511 go. 2 Q: Well, let me just stop you there for 3 a moment. Why was is that you felt the need to hide, Mr. 4 George? 5 A: I was terrified. I just heard a lot 6 of gunfire go off and I didn't know what -- what they 7 would do if they found me in there or what would have 8 happened being so close to the vicinity of the 9 altercation, so I was -- I was scared. 10 Q: You mentioned earlier that you had 11 taken your camouflage jacket off; was there a reason for 12 that? 13 A: Also just wearing it and being native 14 and being -- being there in that area. 15 Q: You were concerned that you might be 16 targeted; is that right? 17 A: Yeah. I -- I -- I was very -- that's 18 exactly what I thought; that I would be targeted. 19 Q: Did you have the feeling that you had 20 done something wrong? 21 A: No. Because I -- I didn't do 22 anything wrong. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I was trying to relay a message, 25 supporting my brother to go there and say, you know, the
1521 police are moving in with force and are there women and 2 children here? If so, they should evacuate. I don't 3 feel anything was wrong with doing that. 4 Q: Okay. So you -- you went undetected 5 at the barricade at Ravenswood and Highway 21? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: And you -- you've indicated that the 8 vehicle was allowed to proceed at that time? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: So what happened? 11 A: After that point, I believe we 12 carried -- we carried on through Ravenswood and we went - 13 - we continued up -- we passed Highway 21 where the 14 barricade was, drove up, and there's a corner that comes 15 around some concession. And it cuts off and cuts onto 16 another concession that leads to Highway 21 again, that 17 heads into Forest, which is where we were going, to the 18 Forest Detachment and -- 19 Q: And the reason for going to Forest 20 Detachment? 21 A: Was to try to find out where my 22 brother was because we had heard that he got shot and 23 that's what we wanted to fi -- try to find out when we 24 got to the police station. 25 Q: Okay. I take it you still had your -
1531 - your jacket with you, although you had taken it off 2 earlier on the beach? 3 A: Yeah, I took it off and I put it 4 under the spare tire of the truck, in the back of the 5 truck, in the cab. 6 Q: Okay. Did you get to the Forest 7 Detachment of the Ontario Provincial Police? 8 A: Yeah, we got -- we got there. 9 Q: And tell us about that. 10 A: I'm not sure of the time, but when we 11 were almost to the Forest Detachment, still on Highway 12 21, Kentucky Fried Chicken -- I recall we passed a -- a 13 white -- a white van that never had any markings on it. 14 But I -- I knew it was an officer, or there were police 15 in the -- in there so I -- I knew it was a police -- a 16 police vehicle because he seen me in the back. 17 Q: How do you know he seen you, Mr. 18 George? 19 A: At that time I was sitting up. I was 20 sitting up, like I wasn't -- I wasn't hiding in the side 21 anymore, I was sitting on the spare tire. And as soon as 22 he seen me, he spun around and I -- I believe it was the 23 passenger, a female officer, on the radio, radioing into 24 the -- I don't -- I don't know who she was radioing. But 25 when we got to the police Detachment the van that's --
1541 circled around and came up behind us. 2 The driver and the passenger, and I 3 believe there was -- I don't how many else -- how many 4 other officers, but they got out with their guns drawn. 5 And when they got to the police station, he pulled up, 6 they all exited and drew -- drew their guns and the cops 7 that were at the cop shop had their guns drawn. 8 Q: Okay. Let me just slow you down 9 there for a moment. The people that exited the white van 10 you said drew their guns. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it's your recollection that there 13 were three (3) of them, two (2) males -- 14 A: And a female. 15 Q: -- and a female. 16 A: That were sitting in the -- the 17 female was sitting in the front. 18 Q: And they all drew weapons? 19 A: They all drew weapons. 20 Q: Do you recall the kinds of weapons? 21 A: The two (2) -- I believe that those 22 ones had hand -- hand -- handguns? They all had 23 handguns, the ones that were in the van. 24 Q: And when they drew these weapons, 25 what did they do with them?
1551 A: They -- they pointed them at -- at 2 the truck where -- like they were pointing at all three 3 (3) of us, but the ones that were in the van had them 4 pointed at me. 5 Q: I'm sorry? 6 A: The ones that were in the van, they 7 all had their guns -- they had their poi -- their guns 8 pointed at me. And I don't recall how many were in front 9 of the police station had all their guns drawn, also, on 10 the vehicle. 11 Q: And do you know what kind of guns 12 they had, that is, the police officers that were at the 13 Detachment? 14 A: They had assault rifles and handguns. 15 Q: And again, do you have an estimation 16 for us as to how many officers you observed? 17 A: In the front of the police station I 18 would say there's maybe fifteen (15) to twenty (20). 19 Q: Okay. As these fifteen (15) to 20 twenty (20) officers have their guns drawn on you and the 21 two (2) other people in your vehicle, I take it the 22 vehicle is stopped? 23 A: Yes, yes. We were -- we were parked 24 and it was -- the vehicle was shut off. 25 Q: All right.
1561 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Was there anything being said? 3 A: They were hollering and they were 4 ordering the passenger out of the vehicle first. 5 Q: And that would be Gig -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- as you told us. 8 A: Gig. 9 Q: Deanna Bressette. 10 A: And they ordered her out, ordered her 11 to get on her knees and her hands behind her head. 12 Q: Did she do that? 13 A: Yeah, she got out and she done -- she 14 done that. Then they ordered Roseanne out and do the 15 same as well, and she got out beside Deanna and she did 16 the same. 17 And I was in the back and at that -- at 18 this time, I had -- I was standing up and I had my -- my 19 shirt pulled up to roughly my waist and I had my other -- 20 my left hand in the air and I -- I said I was unarmed. 21 And they kept yelling at me to get out of 22 the vehicle -- get out of the vehicle or we're going to 23 use force and I just kept yelling, where's my brother, 24 where's my brother, Bernard? I want to know where my 25 brother Bernard is.
1571 And I looked at Roseanne and she was -- 2 she was really emotional and she pleaded with me to get 3 out of the vehicle. 4 Q: What was she saying, Mr. George? 5 A: She asked me, she said brother, can 6 you please get out of the -- out of the truck, she said. 7 I -- she said -- because she thought that Bernard had 8 died, that Bernard had got shot and that he was killed. 9 And she said, I -- I don't want to lose anybody -- 10 anybody else. Can you please get out of the truck. 11 So, when I seen her crying, and I got -- I 12 don't even know how I was feeling, I -- I can't ex -- I - 13 - I don't know. I really didn't have too many emotions. 14 I was -- I was mad and scared and I didn't -- I don't -- 15 I don't recall how I felt exactly, but when I seen her I 16 just -- I had -- I got out of the vehicle. 17 And they were ordering me to do the same 18 as the -- the two (2) women had done and I was going to 19 do that. 20 Q: You were going to get on your knees? 21 A: Yeah, I was going to get on my knees. 22 I had my hands behind my head and I was going to get on 23 my knees and I was tackled before I could even do the 24 instructions that I was given. I was tackled by, like, 25 four (4) cops.
1581 Q: Okay. 2 A: And they put the cuffs on me and 3 like, I went in the dirt face first. 4 Q: Were you injured at all when you were 5 tackled by four (4) cops, as you put it? 6 A: I don't -- I don't recall. I know my 7 wrists were sore the next day. But any like scars or 8 scratches, no, I didn't -- I didn't encounter those. 9 Q: They -- they put the cuffs on you; 10 were you handcuffed in front of your body or behind? 11 A: No, I was handcuffed behind my back. 12 Q: Okay. What happens after that? 13 A: Well, after that they -- they 14 assisted me to my feet and escorted me -- me and the 15 other two (2) women into the police Detachment garage. 16 And when we got into the garage we were forced against 17 the wall with -- we were instructed to look only at the 18 wall with our heads facing towards the ground. 19 And that we weren't to look around at 20 anybody, just to look straightforward. 21 Q: Okay. And up to this point, were you 22 told by anybody that you were being detained or that you 23 were under arrest or anything beyond what you've told us? 24 A: To my recollection, I don't remember 25 being told that I was under arrest except being cuffed.
1591 I don't recall saying why they were cuffing me because I 2 didn't see -- to this day I don't -- I hope that anybody 3 that goes to the police Detachment for help that this 4 doesn't happen to them. 5 You know, they go to a police station to 6 try and get help, not to get thrown in the dirt and 7 cuffed. Just because it was this particular day. If it 8 was today and somebody went to the police station this 9 happened to, I'm sure it would be quite different. Now 10 if I went there, you know, you don't go to the police 11 station for this kind of altercation, I guess. 12 Q: So you were taken into the police 13 garage and I'm sorry you said, Forced against the wall? 14 A: Yeah, forced against the garage wall 15 and instructed to look forward at the ground. And I -- 16 my emotions were all over and I wanted to see who -- 17 because there was an officer behind me with his hand -- 18 his right hand on the back of my head, pushing my head 19 against the garage door because I was trying to look 20 around to see -- to see -- try see faces, you know, to 21 see who was doing that, like, forcing my head against the 22 wall. 23 And they weren't giving us any kind of -- 24 any kind of information on where my brother was and that 25 was my whole purpose of going there and being treated
1601 like that, you know, I was -- I was even -- I was even 2 more mad. 3 Q: Did you continue to ask where your 4 brother was -- 5 A: I kept -- 6 Q: -- while you were -- while you were 7 in the garage? 8 A: I -- I asked and asked from the time 9 I got there until the time I left. 10 Q: Did you hear whether or not the other 11 two (2) people, Roseanne and -- and Deanna, were -- were 12 they asking anything? 13 A: Roseanne was asking, there was -- the 14 one -- the one officer was asking us our information, who 15 we were and Roseanne kept asking him where -- where 16 Bernard was. 17 Q: When you say an officer was asking 18 you your information, I take it that is your -- your 19 name, address and that sort of thing? 20 A: Yes, that's correct. 21 Q: Did you provide that information? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: Do you know whether or not Roseanne 24 and Deanna did? 25 A: Yes, they did.
1611 Q: Are you familiar with a -- a Kettle 2 Point police officer by the name of Walter Kuzenowski 3 (phonetic)? 4 A: Yes, I know -- I know. 5 Q: And did you see him at -- at the 6 Forest Detachment at that particular time? 7 A: No, I didn't, I didn't see him. I 8 was -- I was trying to focus on the one officer that kept 9 pushing my head against the garage door, which was on my 10 left side and -- yeah, no I didn't -- I didn't see him. 11 Q: All right. Did you hear your sister- 12 in-law or Deanna Bressette asking anybody and in 13 particular Mr. Kuzenowski for any kind of assistance 14 A: I didn't -- I didn't -- I wasn't 15 aware of Wally's presence until we had left the 16 Detachment. So, no, I -- I did not. 17 Q: So you learned that some other time. 18 A: Yeah. That he was there? Yeah I 19 did. 20 Q: Were you provided any information 21 about your brother's whereabouts or his condition? 22 A: I wasn't given any inf -- not -- 23 nothing. 24 Q: All right. And after you had 25 provided your information to the -- to the police, what
1621 happened? 2 A: After we provided informat -- or we - 3 - we gave our information on who we were and they ran, I 4 guess, their police checks, they didn't have any sort or 5 warrants or not like -- nothing that could've kept us 6 there. 7 And they checked the vehicle and there 8 wasn't nothing in the vehicle, no firearms or nothing 9 except the coat that I was wearing; they released us. 10 Q: Did they say anything to you as you 11 were being released? 12 A: I don't recall but -- no, I don't. I 13 don't remember them saying anything further. 14 Q: Had you ever received any kind of 15 explanation for what happened on that instance from 16 anybody in authority? 17 A: Pertaining to why we were treated the 18 way we were? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you know whose vehicle it was that 22 you were riding in when you were in the -- who -- whose 23 pickup this was that you were in the bed of? 24 A: Yeah, it was Bernard's. 25 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not
1631 Bernard carries a handgun in -- in that particular 2 vehicle? 3 A: I don't -- I've never seen Bernard 4 with a handgun. 5 Q: And do you recall how the vehicle 6 entered the parking lot at the Forest Detachment before 7 you came to a stop? 8 A: Well, it was -- 9 Q: I guess what I'm asking is, do -- how 10 was Roseanne driving? 11 A: She was driving, probably a little 12 bit more cautious than, like, normally because there were 13 so many cops out that day and not only that, I was in the 14 back of the truck, so I'm pretty sure she was driving 15 pretty cautiously. 16 Q: Do you get the sense that she was 17 driving erratically at any point in time -- 18 A: No, she was -- 19 Q: -- during the -- the course of this 20 drive that you've just described for us? 21 A: No, she wasn't. Because I was in the 22 back of the truck from all -- all of the time. 23 Q: As -- 24 A: So she wasn't driving all -- 25 Q: As you were driving into the parking
1641 lot could you see as you were coming in or were you 2 looking back and I-- I'm just trying to get a sense, Mr. 3 George, what it was you were able to see as you were 4 coming to the Forest Detachment. 5 A: I was looking backwards. I was 6 sitting on the -- the spare tire and the passengers and 7 the driver -- well, the driver was up here and the 8 passenger here. I was -- I wasn't facing towards the 9 Detachment when we arrived. 10 Q: Okay. Did it seem to you that the 11 approach into the parking lot was unusual in any way? 12 And I -- and I understand you were looking the opposite 13 direction. 14 A: Unusual? You mean what -- how -- how 15 we entered the parking lot -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- or the Detachment, how it 18 appeared? 19 Q: No, no. How -- how you entered the - 20 - the Detachment parking lot? 21 A: Not -- not -- no way nobody else 22 would enter. You know, it was typical pulling into a 23 parking lot. 24 Q: And I take it that when you arrived 25 in the parking lot that your intention, as you've told
1651 us, was to find out what happened to your brother 2 Bernard. 3 And so rather than responding to the 4 police demands that were made of you immediately, you 5 just continued to ask them questions; is that -- is that 6 fair, Mr. George? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. Do you recall the tone of 9 voice you were using? 10 A: I was mad. 11 Q: You were probably shouting at them? 12 A: I probably was, yeah. 13 Q: Do you know how many cruisers, that 14 is police vehicles, you would have observed in the 15 Detachment parking lot? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Okay. And just so I understand and 18 give you an -- opportunity, the officer that was 19 instructing you to come down as you were -- I take it you 20 were exposing your -- your midriff, you waist, to show 21 you didn't have a weapon. Is that -- is that right? 22 A: Yes, that's correct. 23 Q: And you mentioned something that he 24 was going to use force? 25 A: Hmm hmm. The one -- the -- the
1661 driver of our -- the driver of the van was the one that 2 was saying that he was -- they were -- that they were 3 going to use force, not he was going to use force, that 4 they were going to use force to -- if I didn't exit the 5 vehicle. 6 Q: Are those the words that you 7 remembered? 8 A: Yeah. Yes, they are. 9 Q: And did you get any sense about -- 10 about why this was happening from the -- from the police 11 perspective? I realize you can't get into their mind 12 obviously, but did you have a sense as to why this 13 reaction was -- was being taken? 14 A: I -- I don't know. I don't even know 15 why they -- I -- I don't because I don't even know why 16 they opened fire on -- on Ipperwash at the Park. 17 Q: All right. And after the -- after 18 you were released, then, from the custody -- from custody 19 at the Forest Detachment; what did you do? 20 A: We returned to Kettle Point, to the 21 Kettle Point Plaza where there was a -- a large amount of 22 natives from Kettle Point that had gathered. 23 Q: Do you recall what time of day that 24 might have been now, Mr. George? 25 A: Oh it was -- it was getting pretty
1671 late by then. 2 Q: Getting late or bright? 3 A: Yeah, it was getting late, like 4 11:00, maybe. 5 Q: Okay. Carry on. 6 A: I didn't -- I can't recall if they 7 had already built a fire off Highway 21 or if it was 8 after I -- I returned up there. Because at that time I - 9 - I don't -- actually I don't even recall too much after 10 that, what had happened when I got to the Plaza or if it 11 is -- it was even the Plaza I went to. 12 I -- I think I might have went to 13 Bernard's, to his residence on Kettle Point. I think 14 that's more -- like, I did go -- I'm not even too sure of 15 that. 16 Q: At some point in time you ended up at 17 the Plaza at -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- Kettle Point? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you observed a bonfire on Highway 22 21. 23 A: There was two (2) different fires. 24 There was the one that was there and the one that was at 25 the beginning of, I believe, Eagle's Drive or Eagle's
1681 Landing. 2 Q: Is that in the Plaza? 3 A: It's --it's along Lake Shore, and 4 it's the last -- well, the -- actually, when you're 5 coming from Sarnia on Lake Shore, it's the first turn off 6 to Kettle Point. 7 Q: And with respect to either of those 8 fires, Mr. George, did you have any hand in starting 9 those or maintaining them? 10 A: No. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Did you eventually find out what 15 became of your brother, Cecil Bernard George? 16 A: Yes, I did find out that he was 17 severely -- severely beaten and that he was in critical 18 condition. I'm not positive of when I heard -- when I 19 got the information, though. 20 Q: Did you learn at some point in time 21 about what happened to Dudley George? 22 A: I learned that in -- in the early 23 morning as well, or probably around the same time I heard 24 what had happened to my brother. 25 Q: And do you recall how this
1691 information was provided? 2 A: I don't even -- I -- I'm not sure of 3 that. It was probably the media, I think, maybe. 4 Q: And after this information was 5 provided, can you tell us how many people, first of all, 6 were at the Plaza? 7 A: No, I -- I don't even know. 8 Q: Would an estimate of a hundred (100) 9 or -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- two hundred (200) be -- 12 A: I'd probably say a hundred (100) if - 13 - maybe not quite that many. 14 Q: Okay. And do you -- is it your 15 recollection that everybody learned the information about 16 Dudley George and your brother Bernard George, at the 17 same time? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And what was the reaction to 20 receiving this news? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: It -- at that point, I felt that a 25 lot of people from Kettle Point wanted -- they -- they
1701 changed their -- their tone, I guess, or their political 2 view or -- you know. 3 And they -- they put that aside and they - 4 - they looked at, you know, there's not too many natives 5 that are down there and they were -- they're down there 6 by themselves and, like, all of this just happened. And, 7 you know, thought why -- why did this happen. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: They changed their view with respect 12 to the people that were in occupation at the Army Camp? 13 A: Yeah. I feel that they did. 14 Q: Okay. And we know that there was a 15 group of people, a group of individuals, a large number 16 of individuals as a matter of fact that then left the 17 plaza and began walking toward the Army Camp down Highway 18 21? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And were you part of that group, Mr. 21 George? 22 A: Yes, I was because I wanted to -- 23 Q: In -- 24 A: -- I wanted to find out how my other 25 brother was, Stacey George, because I haven't -- I didn't
1711 hear anything about him and I didn't hear the other 2 people that were injured or -- 3 Q: And what can you tell us about that 4 walk? 5 A: It didn't seem long and right now 6 it's a pretty long walk if you want to just get up and go 7 for a walk, you know, but that -- that walk there that 8 day, it -- it -- it was pretty short. It didn't seem 9 like it -- I -- 10 Q: What was the mood among the people 11 that were walking? 12 A: They probably -- well, to me it felt 13 like they -- they wish they could have got there faster, 14 that they would have been there maybe, or -- 15 Q: And along the way was there any 16 encounters with any police officers or -- 17 A: They barricaded -- like, the police 18 had made at -- what did you say -- what was the road 19 there, West Ipperwash? 20 Q: And Ravenswood. 21 A: And Ravenswood that was still there, 22 but there wasn't any altercation they just let us pass 23 through because they weren't blocking off Highway 21, 24 they were blocking off West Ipperwash and we were walking 25 on 21.
1721 Q: All right. And I take it after what 2 seemed like quite a short walk you did arrive at the Army 3 Camp? 4 A: Yeah. When I got -- when I got to 5 the front of the gate I -- I seen my brother and I walked 6 up and put my arm around him and, like, he had a -- a 7 large relief, sigh, like he was really emotional because 8 he had no idea where I -- where I was all night. 9 He didn't know what happened to me because 10 he heard that a couple of people were shot and he thought 11 I might have been one (1) of them. He went to the beach 12 after all of that. 13 I don't know what time it was, but he said 14 he -- he looked for me and until he actually seen me that 15 morning he was -- that's when he could -- that's when he 16 felt better, I guess. 17 Q: I take it at some point during that 18 day you had occasion to go down to the Park? 19 A: During that day? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Did you go into the Park? 23 A: There -- yeah, I did go into the 24 Park. I believe I went down in the back of a pickup 25 truck.
1731 Q: You would have been aware that the 2 store had been burned or, perhaps, was even still 3 burning? 4 A: I think it was still smouldering when 5 I arrived there. 6 Q: And I gather from that response that 7 you didn't have any role in the burning of that building? 8 A: No, it was ashes when I got there. 9 Q: And when you got there, having caught 10 a ride in the back of a pickup, what did you do? 11 A: Me and my other individuals, I don't 12 recall who I was with that day, we looked for bullet 13 casings. We were just trying to find some -- some sort 14 of evidence that -- I don't know, that they -- that they 15 did open fire because -- 16 Q: Did you find any? I'm sorry. 17 A: Like, we didn't -- any -- nobody that 18 was down there had a video camera to tape this, I don't - 19 - I don't believe, so we were trying to find, like, a -- 20 a shell. 21 I don't know, from all the ones that went 22 off there should have been -- we should have at least 23 found a couple, but couldn't find any. 24 Q: All right. Do you know who all was 25 looking for casings besides you?
1741 A: My brother. I -- like I'd -- this is 2 before, I don't -- I don't really remember who was all 3 down there that day. 4 Q: Were there any police officers around 5 at this time when you were -- again, I take it you're in 6 that area that is marked -- marked as P-23, that 7 intersection. 8 A: There wasn't any police. In the area 9 that I was looking was around in this area. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And there wasn't any police in the 12 whole area. 13 Q: And you're pointing at the -- at the 14 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And how long did this attempt 17 to find casings go on? 18 A: Approximately an hour. 19 Q: And as far as you're aware, none were 20 found? 21 A: As far as I'm aware, I -- there was 22 none found. 23 Q: At least you didn't find any? 24 A: I never found any, and my brother, 25 the people -- individuals that I talked to.
1751 Q: Okay. Let me just take a moment to 2 talk about some of the individuals. Did you recognize 3 those individuals? 4 A: I seen a few tapes or like media -- 5 Q: Media clips? 6 A: Media clips. And the only one I can 7 really recall is Dave George. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I remember Joe Cloud was there. But 10 I don't remember him at the Park, I only remember him -- 11 remember him from where the police had their command 12 post. 13 Q: Okay. I was going to get to the 14 command post in a moment, but just with respect to some 15 of the people that were in occupation at the Park, were 16 you aware that there were non-Stoney Point members there, 17 if I can put it that way? 18 A: At that time, yeah. There was a lot 19 of people that I didn't recognize. 20 Q: Okay. What about the day before, the 21 evening before, when you were there? Were the same 22 people there that you didn't recognize on the 7th, were 23 they there on the evening before, the 6th, if you can 24 recall. 25 A: As -- as I recall it was dark and I
1761 don't even really remember if I seen people that I did 2 know, except my brother and -- 3 Q: All right. But on the 7th, 4 certainly, there were -- there were people there that you 5 didn't know. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And aboriginal, non-aboriginal? 8 A: Aboriginal and media. There was a 9 lot of media there that were -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- non-Aboriginals -- 12 Q: And the Aboriginal people that you 13 observed there, were they -- do you know what communities 14 they were from? 15 A: No. 16 Q: The media that were there, were they 17 Aboriginal or non? 18 A: They were non-Aboriginal. 19 Q: Okay. And what were they doing? 20 A: They were -- they had gone to the 21 Provincial Park with a few vehicles. 22 Q: And you're aware that there was a 23 Ministry of Natural Resources' parking lot just further 24 on down East Parkway Drive? 25 A: That's correct.
1771 Q: And I take it that that is where you 2 were just going to tell us about? 3 A: Yep. 4 Q: So would you go ahead? 5 A: Okay, well, after we searched the 6 area that I indicated, we couldn't find any -- any 7 casings or any sort of evidence and so we walked towards 8 the command post that they had set up. 9 Q: Okay. Tell us about the command 10 post, first of all, that they had set up. 11 A: Well, in particular...? 12 Q: Well, where was it, what did it look 13 like? 14 A: It's...you indicated or you said that 15 this was west? 16 Q: Well, that is west. 17 A: Okay, well, okay, we're going -- 18 Q: I'll go out on a limb here and 19 suggest it's west. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. 20 A: Okay, well, the command post was down 21 this -- down this way. And the parking lot that was -- 22 it had maybe fifteen (15) to twenty (20) cruisers that 23 was in there and a few other vehicles. 24 Q: What kind of vehicles, if you can 25 recall? Can you describe them for us?
1781 A: A few vans. St. Ambulance -- St. 2 John's Ambulance van or a few of -- a few of those -- I 3 think there was two (2) of those; a trailer, a couple of 4 trailers. I'm not even sure actually. I'm just going by 5 what I seen on the -- on the clips. 6 Q: I see, you don't have any personal 7 recollection of these events today? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Just from what you've seen on 10 different media clips? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. Did you see any police 13 officers there? 14 A: Yeah, there was a few. There was -- 15 yeah, there was a few officers there, maybe fifteen (15) 16 at that time, fifteen (15) twenty (20). 17 Q: You've described them as not dressed 18 in typical police uniforms I think earlier. 19 Were these officers that were at the MNR 20 parking lot dressed in the same way? 21 A: They didn't have on their full gear. 22 They -- they just had on -- they didn't have on police 23 uniform. They had on green -- green uniforms. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Black boots.
1791 Q: Sometimes called fatigues maybe. 2 A: Yeah. I don't know the correct term 3 for what they were wearing. 4 Q: Excuse me one second. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I'm showing you an exhibit that's 9 been marked as 131 in these proceedings, Mr. George, and 10 is that a scene that you recognize at all? 11 A: I don't remember that particularly. 12 But, yeah, that's -- that's what they were wearing. 13 Q: And is there anybody in that 14 photograph that you recognize? 15 A: The first one closest, I think -- 16 Q: I wonder if you could just hold that 17 up so that Mr. Commissioner can see and that some of the 18 lawyers that are in the room can also see. 19 A: I think this is Sherry. I'm not 20 sure, Sherry George? And this is I believe Dale. 21 Q: All right. Would you agree with me 22 that that is the MNR parking lot that you're talking 23 about? 24 A: Yeah. I believe that's the beginning 25 of the -- when you're walking from Provincial Park
1801 towards the -- yeah, that's the beginning of the -- right 2 there and then that person right there is Dave. I don't 3 know anybody else in there. 4 Q: Dave? 5 A: Dave George, I think. 6 Q: All right. We are told that the -- 7 that the police in order to avoid a further 8 confrontation, left that parking lot. 9 A: Yeah, that's -- 10 Q: And in fact, you were together with 11 your brother -- 12 A: Yeah, I was. 13 Q: -- as they were leaving. 14 A: Yeah, I was beside him. 15 Q: Your brother has testified here that 16 he had shouted at the officers as they were leaving. 17 A: Hmm. 18 Q: That -- that's a "yes"? 19 A: Yes, yes, sorry. 20 Q: And did any of the police officers 21 that -- that had -- before they had left, did any of them 22 point any weapons at you, in particular? 23 A: At that particular time, none of the 24 officers did point any of their -- any of their weapons. 25 Q: After the police departed the scene,
1811 Mr. George, you had observed others damaging some of the 2 property that was left behind. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And in fact, you may have had a hand 5 in that? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: Or a foot perhaps more properly? 8 A: Yep. 9 Q: Can you tell us what it was that you 10 did? 11 A: I kicked the ambulance -- ambulance 12 vehicle two (2) times, I believe. 13 Q: Did you go into the ambulance 14 vehicle, any of them? 15 A: No, I didn't. 16 Q: Okay. Did you see any equipment, any 17 items, any property being taken away from there? 18 A: No, I didn't see any. 19 Q: Did you take any property? 20 A: No, I didn't 21 Q: I understand, Mr. George, that you 22 were charged with mischief with respect to a St. John 23 Ambulance vehicle but, ultimately, either acquitted or 24 the charge was dismissed as against you? 25 A: Yes, that's correct.
1821 Q: You're recall perhaps, Mr. George, 2 that you had surrendered yourself to the police on 3 November the 2nd of 1995? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: In order to deal with this charge? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And that is how it was dealt with by 8 way of a discharge or -- the -- the charge was 9 discontinued? Or -- or do you know? 10 A: It was discontinued at court, if 11 that's what you're implying. 12 13 Q: You don't recall whether there was a 14 trial or not, or whether it was just at an appearance? 15 A: I don't û- I don't remember if it was 16 my first appearance or if it went to trial. I can't 17 recall. 18 Q: Mr. George, many of the folks that 19 had testified here had told us that they hadn't thought 20 about this incident for a long time. 21 What û- what's your position with respect 22 to this; is this something that you have contemplated, 23 thought about? 24 A: I thought about it for a while and 25 then I didn't like the way it was making me feel against
1831 authority, so, I try to not think about it. 2 Q: And how did this situation make you 3 feel with respect to authority and in -- in particular, 4 the police? 5 A: I started to hate û- well, from that 6 date I started to hate û- hate police. 7 Q: How did you feel about û- about them 8 before, about the police authority? 9 A: I wanted to be a û- a officer myself 10 and I didn't like the fact that I was û- I was starting 11 to hate somebody that I wanted to be. 12 Q: Okay. Is there anything else, Mr. 13 George, that you want to share with us, that you can tell 14 us about you think is important with respect to this 15 event? 16 A: No, I can't think of anything. 17 Q: Okay. I think those are the 18 questions that I have, Mr. Commissioner, and Mr. George. 19 There are a number of other Parties here 20 that are represented and they will perhaps have some 21 questions for you and, Mr. Commissioner, if it's all 22 right we might just canvass other Parties at this moment 23 to see who would wish to cross-examine Mr. George? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 I think that's all we'll do is just canvass everybody and
1841 then adjourn for the day. 2 Does anybody wish to cross-examine Mr. 3 George? Please -- the usual number. 4 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Two (2) to three (3) 5 minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) to 7 three (3) minutes for Mr. Orkin. 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Five (5) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 10 minutes for Ms. Jackie Esmonde. Mr. Ross...? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this your 13 Client? 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, thank you, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Maximum ten (10) 20 minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maximum ten 22 (10) minutes? I'm not sure of the sequence. I think the 23 next is OPP? 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Possibly ten 25 (10) minutes.
1851 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And OPPA? 2 Mr. Roland...? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Less than an hour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 5 Hourigan...? 6 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: Five (5) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 8 minutes? Mr. George...? 9 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I think in the 10 sequence I would follow Mr. Ross - five (5) minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 12 minutes? 13 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: I only have about 14 five (5) minutes of questioning. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 16 minutes. Well, we should be able to complete the cross- 17 examination tomorrow in the morning, perhaps even. 18 So I think rather than embark on it right 19 now at ten (10) minutes to 5:00, we'll adjourn to 20 tomorrow at nine o'clock. 21 Will you be able to be here tomorrow 22 morning at 9:00? 23 THE WITNESS: I'll try. I'll be here. 24 25 (WITNESS RETIRES)
1861 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 5 Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 9 adjourned until tomorrow Tuesday, February the 8th at 10 9:00 a.m. 11 12 --- Upon adjourning at 4:49 p.m. 13 14 15 16 17 18 Certified Correct, 19 20 21 22 ______________________ 23 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 24 25