11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 6th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 24 Michelle Pong ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) 12 13 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 18 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 19 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 20 21 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 22 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 23 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 3 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 4 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 5 Ian McGilp ) (np) 6 Annie Leeks ) (np) 7 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 8 Robyn Trask ) 9 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 10 11 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 12 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 13 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 14 Julian Roy ) (np) 15 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 16 Linda Chen ) (np) 17 Chris Darnay ) 18 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 19 20 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 21 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 22 23 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 24 Matthew Horner ) (np) 25 Kathleen Lickers ) (np)
51 2 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 3 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 4 Craig Mills ) (np) 5 Megan Mackey ) (np) 6 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 7 Erin Tully ) (np) 8 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 9 Maanit Zemel ) 10 11 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 12 Anna Perschy ) (np) 13 Melissa Panjer ) 14 Adam Goodman ) (np) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 Opening Comments 8 5 6 Anthony Gilbert Parkin, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 28 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 188 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1051 OPP Discipline Files Privileged 4 Documents Volume I. 24 5 P-1052 OPP Discipline Files Privileged 6 Documents Volume II. 25 7 P-1053 OPP Discipline Files Cossitt Documents. 8 (3 documents) 25 9 P-499 (REPLACEMENT) 10 Document number 2005524. Handwritten 11 notes of Anthony Parkin May 31/95 to 12 Feb.28/96 and Document Number 2003790 13 Statement of C/Supt. Anthony Parkin March 14 30/04. Replacing handwritten notes only 15 of Tony Parkin Document Number 2003790. 62 16 P-1054 Curriculum Vitae of Anthony Parkin. 73 17 P-1055 Document Number 3000435. 09:42 hours. 18 E-mail from Tony Parkin to Nancy Mansell 19 re. Update Camp Ipperwash, August 02/'95. 115 20 P-1056 Document Number 1000921. 12:01 hours. 21 E-mail from Tony Parkin to Nancy Mansell 22 re. Ipperwash Update, August 04/'95. 125 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 10:32 a.m. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 morning. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 7 presiding. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 14 Vella...? 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 morning. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Before we call our next 20 witness, I have a number of documents to enter into 21 evidence as exhibits. These documents are the entire 22 discipline files in the possession of the Ontario 23 Provincial Police relating to various complaints made 24 against the various police officers, which bear some 25 connection to the Ipperwash policing operation.
91 Before I tender these documents, however, 2 I wish to give a brief description of the circumstances 3 leading to the situation in which we are now able to 4 tender these documents, without the need to go to the 5 Divisional Court for a further adjudication. I will then 6 provide a general description of the documents, so that 7 the record will be clear and the public informed. 8 By way of background, on June 15th, 2005, 9 you issued a summons to Commissioner Gwen Boniface of the 10 Ontario Provincial Police to attend before the Inquiry 11 and produce, amongst other things, the discipline files 12 maintained by the OPP in respect of the alleged 13 discreditable conduct of Detective Constables James Dyke 14 and Daryl Whitehead. 15 You will recall that this allegations 16 related to the contents of a tape-recorded conversation 17 between these two (2) officers while on duty under 18 surveillance outside the Ipperwash Provincial Park on 19 September 5th, 1995. The day before the shooting death 20 of Dudley George. 21 The allegation was that during the course 22 of this taped conversation inappropriate comments were 23 made describing a subject as quote, "a great big fucking 24 Indian", close quote, and purporting to describe a plan 25 in which five (5) or six (6) cases of Labatt's 50 beer
101 would be used to bait the occupiers into a pit. 2 Second, the summons required production of 3 the discipline files in relation to the distribution of 4 mugs and t-shirts to members of the Ipperwash police team 5 which contained symbols including on the mugs and OPP 6 shoulder flash with an arrow through it and the words 7 'Team Ipperwash' written on it and t-shirts which had an 8 eagle feather laying down under an OPP crest. 9 After the summons was issued, you issued a 10 further summons to the OPP requiring Commissioner 11 Boniface to produce further discipline files, this time 12 in relation to the production and display of a Labatt's 13 Blue beer can sitting on a shelf in the bunkhouse at 14 Pinery Park. 15 You will recall that Pinery Park was the 16 temporary housing facility for the various members of the 17 OPP policing team. The beer can had OPP yellow tape 18 wrapped around it, two (2) feathers sticking out the back 19 and a hole in the front of the can. This was seen in the 20 time period immediately following the shooting death of 21 Dudley George. 22 The second summons also required 23 production of discipline files relating to a target 24 placed on the side of an OPP cruiser door at the Pinery 25 Park during the same general timeframe. The target
111 consisted of a bull's eye and arrow. 2 As well, the summons addressed generally 3 any documents relating to any discipline and 4 investigation relating to alleged police misconduct 5 relating in any way to the events at Ipperwash Park or in 6 the related policing operation. 7 This led to yet another discipline file, 8 namely, that of Constable Christopher Cossitt who, it was 9 alleged, uttered falsehoods when he testified at the 10 trial of Kenneth Deane. 11 The Commission's jurisdiction to compel 12 production of these files was challenged by the OPP, the 13 Ontario Provincial Police Association and the Province on 14 the general basis that there are provisions contained in 15 the Police Services Act which these parties say render 16 the discipline filed inadmissible at this Public Inquiry. 17 The motion was heard by you on July 19 and 18 20, 2005. On August 15th, 2005 you released part of your 19 decision. You held amongst other things that the Police 20 Services Act did not apply -- sorry, did not apply to 21 Public Inquiries and hence did not constitute a statutory 22 bar to the Commission receiving the informal discipline 23 files and tendering them into evidence if relevant to the 24 work of the Inquiry. 25 Subject to further deciding whether,
121 notwithstanding the inapplicability of the Police 2 Services Act, the documents in question were nonetheless 3 privileged and relevant. If these documents were 4 privileged, then under the terms of the Public Inquiry 5 Act the Commission cannot receive these documents into 6 evidence unless that privilege is waived by those whose 7 privacy rights are engage, in this case, the individual 8 police officers and witnesses themselves. 9 In order to assist you in determining 10 whether or not these documents were privileged and 11 relevant you determined that it was necessary to review 12 the discipline files and you so directed. 13 Accordingly, the OPP produced the 14 discipline files relating to all of the matters and your 15 counsel commenced a detailed review. In the meantime, 16 the Ontario Provincial Police Association requested that 17 you state a case to the Divisional Court as it wished to 18 challenge a ruling dated August 15, 2005 and in 19 particular the determination that the Police Services Act 20 had no application to the Public Inquiry and your 21 direction to produce the confidential discipline files to 22 your counsel for review. 23 The OPP and Province indicated they would 24 join in the OPPA's request. 25 I should pause here to indicate that had
131 this matter been forced onto judicial review by way of a 2 stated case before the Divisional Court, it would likely 3 have taken months to be heard and determined and the 4 unsuccessful party would have had the ability to seek 5 further appeals. 6 Thus the conclusion of the Inquiry would 7 have been considerably delayed and the public put to the 8 expense of additional legal fees. We are able to avoid 9 this outcome by settlement which we negotiated on your 10 authority with the Ontario Provincial Police, the Ontario 11 Provincial Police Association, and the Province. 12 Let me describe the settlement in simple 13 terms. The OPP, OPPA, and Province have consented to 14 releasing the discipline files to the Commission for 15 distribution to the Parties on the following conditions. 16 First, the names and information which 17 could reasonably identify the police officers who had no 18 involvement with the events from September 4th to 6th, 19 1995, have been redacted and second the names and 20 information which could reasonably identify the MNR or 21 the Ministry of Natural Resources personnel who were 22 interviewed by the OPP investigators have been redacted. 23 Let me be clear, however, as to what is 24 remaining in the records. First, the names of all police 25 officers who had some involvements in the events from
141 September 4 to 6, 1995, remain in the record and are 2 disclosed by virtue of their consent. 3 This includes references made to and/or 4 statements given by the Incident Commander then Inspector 5 John Carson, then Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark 6 Wright, Staff Sergeant Klaus Bouwman, Sergeant Kent 7 Skinner, then Superintendent Anthony Parkin. 8 As well, other officers have consented to 9 their names being publicly disclosed including 10 Commissioner Gwen Boniface, former Deputy Commissioner 11 Nagel, former Commissioner Tom O'Grady, and the lead 12 investigator on the Omnibus complaint, Dennis Atkin. 13 It also includes the three (3) subject 14 police officers who were involved in the events from 15 September 4 to 6, 1995, being Detective Chris Cossitt and 16 Detective Constables Whitehead and Dyke. 17 Second, of the police officers whose names 18 have been redacted, none of these officers had any 19 involvements in the events of September 4 to 6, 1995, but 20 rather came after September 6th, 1995. Further, none of 21 these police officers were local; that is none were 22 assigned to the Forest detachment at the relevant time 23 period. 24 Two (2) other conditions were attached to 25 the proposal by the OPP, OPPA, and the Province. First,
151 they have consented to the release and public disclosure 2 of this information without prejudice to their positions 3 as originally argued before you regarding the 4 applicability of the Police Services Act and the 5 existence of privilege. 6 Second, while they do not consent to these 7 documents being made exhibits in this proceeding they 8 will not challenge the admissibility of the files and the 9 circumstances of the resolution of this matter so that 10 the Inquiry may continue to complete Part 1 without the 11 interruption and delay which would be caused by court 12 proceedings. 13 Your Counsel carefully considered these 14 conditions in their review of the discipline files and 15 have concluded that they are fair and reasonable and will 16 not prejudice the Commission's investigation. 17 The material condition for our purposes 18 was the redaction of names and identifying information 19 relating to certain police officers and the MNR 20 personnel. We believe that this information is not 21 relevant to the work of the Inquiry since these police 22 officers had no involvement with the events from 23 September 4th to 6th, 1995. 24 Similarly, the names of the MNR witnesses 25 interviewed in the course of the police investigation are
161 not relevant nor are they material to assist in the -- 2 the Inquiry in its work, that is, an inquiry into and 3 reporting on the events surrounding the death of Dudley 4 George. 5 What is important is what is left intact 6 and remaining in the records, namely, the substance of 7 what these officers and MNR personnel saw, heard, and 8 understood in relation to these matters as well as their 9 candid views as to the propriety of these episodes. As 10 well, the complete investigation, analysis, and outcome 11 of each of the discipline investigations are fully 12 revealed. 13 In addition the names of those officers 14 who did have some involvement with the events of 15 September 4 to 6, 1995, are transparent and revealed 16 fully in the records. 17 Hence, the public will now know the extent 18 to which the allegations were found to be true, whether 19 or not they were found to constitute discreditable 20 conduct and what, if any, discipline was administered as 21 well as the OPP institutional response to these events. 22 From a systemic perspective the public will know what 23 others who witnessed or were a party to the various 24 episodes thought about the propriety or lack thereof of 25 those episodes.
171 For these reasons, we recommended this 2 proposal to you as an appropriate and complete resolution 3 to the matters raised by the original motion and you have 4 agreed. 5 Now, let me describe briefly for the 6 record and the public's benefit what we are about to 7 tender into evidence. 8 First, there are a total of three (3) 9 discipline files. The first relates to officers Dyke and 10 Whitehead. 11 The second is an omnibus complaint which 12 dealt with the mugs and t-shirts, the beer cans, the 13 bull's eye and arrow, the newspaper cartoons, certain 14 alleged inflammatory comments and alleged offensive items 15 on a blackboard at the Pinery Park. 16 The third file deals with Constable 17 Cossitt and the findings of the presiding Judge at the 18 Kenneth Deane trial. 19 Second, we have a total of a hundred and 20 twenty-one (121) documents. In general, these documents 21 consist of the following groups. 22 Documents 1 to 15 all relate to the 23 Whitehead and Dyke proceedings. 24 Document 1 is the report of the 25 investigator and contains the findings, conclusions and
181 recommendations. 2 Document 16 to 102 relate to the 3 investigation into a complaint arising from the 4 distribution of certain mugs and t-shirts, the display of 5 a beer can with a feather and police tape, the posting of 6 a bull's eye and arrow target on the side of a cruiser 7 and depicted in a photograph and the posting of cartoons. 8 These events were all treated as one (1) 9 complaint in which Superintendent Anthony Parkin was the 10 complainant. 11 Document 16 is a copy of the Parkin 12 complaint and Document 17 is the comprehensive report of 13 the investigating officer, then Staff Sergeant Dennis 14 Atkin. 15 Documents 19 to 21 are photographs of the 16 impugned doc -- objects. 17 Documents 24 to 30 are the statements and 18 duty reports of the subject police officers. 19 Documents 31 to 35 are the statements of 20 the non-police officer complainants and other involved 21 persons. 22 Documents 36 to 71 are the statements of 23 the witness police officers. 24 Documents 72 to 88 are the statements of 25 the MNR personnel.
191 Documents 89 to 102, with the exception of 2 Document 100, are the follow-up discipline records, 3 tracing the carrying out of the informal discipline. 4 Documents 103 to 119 are post-discipline 5 documents, including institutional responses. 6 And documents 120 and 121 are additional 7 statements of a witness police office and one of the 8 subject police officers. 9 I do not intend to review the 10 investigations or the outcomes at this time, but rather 11 will leave that to the witnesses who will be called and, 12 in some cases, recalled, commencing with former 13 Superintendent Parkin. 14 Commissioner, at this time, I propose that 15 the two (2) volumes of documents which we will call OPP 16 discipline files be marked as the next two (2) exhibits, 17 and the Cossitt file will then be the third exhibit, 18 subject to any comments which you may wish to make. 19 Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. I do wish to make some -- I see Mr. Falconer 22 on his feet. Do you have something to say before I make 23 some comment? 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 didn't know you were about to comment and I don't want to
201 interrupt you. I simply was waiting until My Friend was 2 finished, but prior to My Friend proposed to tender them 3 as exhibits, I did have something to say. 4 But I'm happy to wait for you to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 6 happy to hear what you have to say, because I'm going to 7 make some comments. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 Mr. Commissioner, I appreciate, obviously 11 -- Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto brought a Motion 12 some time ago, in June or July of 2005 in respect of 13 these records, and you issued summonses and My Friends 14 have been obviously extremely busy trying to resolve this 15 matter in a way that served the public interest. 16 And so, on behalf of Aboriginal Legal 17 Services of Toronto, I certainly want to say that it's 18 appreciated on behalf of my client. 19 We received notice that the documents were 20 -- were going to be produced on Friday at the end of the 21 day -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And to be fair to 24 most of us, that's put us in a -- in a rather difficult 25 position. So I -- my hesitation is this -- My Friend is
211 proposing to file these as exhibits. From the point of 2 view of Commission Counsel, they meet whatever standard 3 they felt was appropriate to apply on your behalf and 4 their own in terms of filing them. 5 Whether or not parties to this proceeding, 6 including my clients, actually agree and ought to have an 7 opportunity to be heard on the issue is a live matter. 8 I have, of course, looked at your rules, 9 Mr. Commissioner and in terms of the process that we're 10 now at, we're in a bit of a grey area with respect to 11 your rules, with respect. 12 In other words, there's not obviously a 13 process contemplated once Commission Counsel and the 14 party asserting privilege have arrived at a settlement 15 without input from others, and I'm not being critical. 16 There's not necessarily a formal process identified. 17 With great respect, not meaning to drive 18 your process down, I think it's essential that there is a 19 process. I'm -- I -- I -- what I would respectfully 20 propose is that I speak to your counsel because I've 21 heard of all this for the first time this morning, I -- I 22 speak to your counsel during a break and canvas that. 23 Because what -- I'm sure you would want 24 not want to have happen, Mr. Commissioner, is that these 25 matters simply get addressed without any input whatsoever
221 from interested parties. 2 So, I don't want to provide that input on 3 the record and take up time when I'm not operating from 4 an informed point of view. And -- and so I simply say 5 prior to making them exhibits, we should -- or we can 6 make them exhibits without prejudice to potential 7 alterations down the road. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 9 fair. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And I'm -- I'm in 11 your hands but I -- I want -- before they're made 12 exhibits I don't want to be seen as tacitly agreeing or 13 implyable agreeing to a process that I don't really 14 understand yet -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- because I 17 haven't had a chance to read them. And I apologize for 18 interrupting your process but I thought perhaps your 19 Commission counsel, Ms. Vella and I and others could have 20 a brief chat on a process that would allow some level of 21 input from the parties on what's happened today. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella, 23 do you have any comment on -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I appreciate My -- My 25 Friend's concerns and he's quite correct, it was mid-
231 afternoon before we were able to provide the documents to 2 all the parties. 3 In terms of making these exhi -- documents 4 exhibits now, this is not a trial, we are content and 5 satisfied that they meet the requirements for an exhibit. 6 I think that they should nonetheless be made exhibits. 7 However, noting My Friend's concerns or 8 reservations I welcome his input and if necessary we can 9 address the matter further on if -- if appropriate. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 I want to commend counsel -- or Commission counsel and 12 all counsel who worked very hard to achieve this 13 objective. I understand that Mr. Falconer and others may 14 have some comment down the road. 15 But at this point, we're able to produce 16 an incredible number of documents relating to discipline 17 files which will allow a fulsome cross-examination on 18 issues that I believe are relevant to this Inquiry 19 without the necessity of having a stated case. 20 So, I wish to commend counsel. Now we'll 21 leave the -- I think we should mark them as exhibits 22 subject to whatever Mr. Falconer and you discuss and if 23 you have some alterations or additions, we'll deal with 24 that later on. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that is
241 appropriate. For example, there have been some consents 2 obtained recently which will relate to some further 3 un-redacting of the documents. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 5 if it's necessary for me to make any more comment at this 6 time. I think I'll just leave it at that. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, why 9 don't we just label these documents. Have you got the 10 numbers? 11 THE REGISTRAR: Would -- Ms. Vella, 12 Volume I and II as one (1) exhibit or separate exhibits? 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think the Volume I 14 should be the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. That would 16 1051, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1051 for 18 Volume I. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1051: OPP Discipline Files 22 Privileged Documents Volume 23 I. 24 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Volume II will be the
251 next exhibit please. 2 THE REGISTRAR: 1052. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1052: OPP Discipline Files 5 Privileged Documents Volume 6 II. 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There are 9 some documents respecting Cossitt which -- 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: There are three (3) 11 documents which comprise the Cossitt discipline file; 12 would you kindly make that collectively the next exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: 1053, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1053: OPP Discipline Files Cossitt 16 Documents. (3 documents) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. So do you have a comment too, Mr. Sandler? 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: I was just going to 21 say this, that just to be clear, these are the documents 22 that -- that a fulsome search obtained. I can't vouch 23 that it's every document that ever existed in relation to 24 these things and I think everybody understands that 25 because we're -- we're ten (10) years later.
261 The other thing I should just note, just - 2 - just to clarify the record and I know Commission 3 counsel knows this that in relation to the Cossitt file 4 also as I understand it what was contained in the 5 discipline file were the transcripts from the Deane trial 6 itself, but those aren't being reproduced for obvious 7 reasons. Those are already accessible and available to 8 everyone. 9 And -- and the only other comment that I 10 wanted to -- to make is -- is you'll recall, 11 Commissioner, just to be clear, that -- that I always 12 took the position on the part of the OPP that -- that you 13 were entitled to know about these incidents described by 14 Ms. Vella, that you're entitled to know what discipline 15 was or was not imposed, what other action was taken by 16 the OPP in relation to the matters, but we did take a 17 principled approach. 18 That -- and I tried at one point during 19 the -- during the submissions to -- to try to reach some 20 sort of a determination. But I'm in -- fully in 21 agreement with -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 We don't need to rehear the submissions now. 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: No, I understand that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
271 MR. MARK SANDLER: That's all I wanted to 2 say. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 The documents are now exhibits and they can be referred 5 to by Counsel in their cross-examination 6 So, you are now going to call your next 7 witness or is there some more that needs to be done 8 before we do? 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I wonder if we might 10 take a very brief recess to set up for the next witness? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 10:55 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 11:03 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 morning. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Your 22 Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 24 Worme...? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr.
281 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 morning. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: The Commission calls 5 as the next witness Anthony Parkin. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Parkin. 7 MR. ANTHONY PARKIN: Good morning. 8 9 ANTHONY GILBERT PARKIN, Sworn 10 11 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Perhaps I can simply start, Mr. 13 Commissioner, by thanking the Witness for appearing here 14 on -- it has been short notice and as you'll know that 15 there was a bit of re-jigging of the -- of the agenda and 16 we certainly appreciate his being made available to us 17 and coming back here in terms of getting ready for -- for 18 this day. 19 Just by way of process I should -- I 20 should perhaps indicate so that My Friends know where I'm 21 going on this today is that we will start by reviewing 22 the background with Officer Parkin -- or pardon me, 23 former Officer Parkin. As I understand he presently has 24 retired from the Force. I will get into his background. 25 I'm going to talk to him a little bit about his various
291 experiences and then talk about his involvement in the 2 Ipperwash situation that brings us all here. 3 I expect that perhaps as early as this 4 afternoon or -- or hopefully by -- by this afternoon to 5 get into some of the conversations that have been 6 recorded between he and other officers relative to the 7 matter in front of us and then ask him a series of 8 questions with respect to that. 9 I have placed a book of documents in front 10 of Mr. Parkin. At Tab 1 of that is a curriculum vitae 11 which he was good enough to provide to us and that has 12 been distributed for My Friends. 13 I would put a copy up on the -- up on the 14 screen but I'm advised that the copy is illegible so I'm 15 afraid that I do not have a copy but for those that would 16 require a copy we can certainly make one (1) available. 17 As I say My Friends have a copy available to them. 18 So, with those -- with those comments, Mr. 19 Parkin, if I can ask you to turn then to Tab 1 which is 20 the curriculum vitae that you have provided to us; that 21 is the document? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. And it -- it commences 24 with a statement that you had been a member of the 25 Ontario Provincial Police since the 15th of March 1970?
301 A: That's really the 16th of March, 1970 2 but, yes, that's correct. 3 Q: All right. And you retired, as I 4 understand, in March of 2005? That's correct, is it? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. Throughout your 7 experience, and I can perhaps take you that, in -- in 8 1970 to 1982 you were a provincial constable? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: And you would have trained at the -- 11 at the Police College -- 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: -- located then in Aylmer? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: All right. Just in terms of that -- 16 of that training I wonder if you might just describe just 17 in very general terms and -- and, clearly, we do have 18 other evidence with respect to the training but is there 19 anything that you can tell us with respect to the 20 training that you received at that stage? 21 A: At Aylmer, at that time, there was 22 what was referred as an A and a B course, so is -- I 23 believe it was twelve (12) weeks long and there was an 24 interim period between going on the part A and the part 25 B.
311 There was a minimum requirement of 75 2 percent, I believe, to be successful. There were a 3 number of courses that were provided; evidence, Highway 4 Traffic Act, Criminal Code, miscellaneous statutes, that 5 type of thing. 6 There was physical training along with 7 police holds, and just a general introduction to all 8 facets of policing and various legislation. 9 Q: Your curriculum vitae then notes that 10 you were placed at various Detachments, commencing with 11 Guelph; is that correct? 12 A: Guelph Detachment was my first 13 posting and then I was transferred to Downsview 14 Detachment in Toronto for the opening of what was then 15 Ontario Place. And the OPP were selected to police 16 Ontario Place, so I was part of that contingent. 17 I was there for a couple of years and then 18 I was transferred to Burlington Detachment where I did 19 general law enforcement duties. I was on patrol and I 20 rode a motorcycle. 21 Q: All right. And I see that you were 22 subsequently then placed at Simcoe? 23 A: Yes, I transferred to Simcoe in 1978 24 and again, I was a general law enforcement and I got into 25 the area of criminal investigation at that time, as a
321 constable. 2 Back then we were referred to as Detective 3 Constables. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: And that's when I got my first 6 experience, if you will, with policing from a front line 7 level, First Nations communities. 8 Q: I wonder if you would go ahead and 9 just tell us about that, sir? 10 A: Simcoe Detachment bordered on 11 Brantford Detachment area and it -- part of the policing 12 area bordered, for us, bordered on the Six Nations Indian 13 Reserve as it was called. 14 So, there were a number of First Nations 15 people living off of the Six Nations and in our area, and 16 from time to time from a front-line perspective, I would 17 become involved with them. 18 Q: Did you have any kind of specific 19 duties with respect to liaising with that community, that 20 is, the Six Nations Indian Reserve as you've described 21 it? 22 A: Not when I was working at Simcoe 23 Detachment, but in 197 -- or, excuse me, in 1982 I was 24 promoted to Corporal and I was transferred to Brantford 25 Detachment.
331 Q: And I understand the Brantford 2 Detachment had a sub-office in Oshweken which is located 3 on the Six Nations Territory? 4 A: Yes, it was a sub-office. And 5 shortly after arriving at Brantford, I was there for a 6 few months, and then they asked me to take over the 7 responsibility for supervising the policing contingent 8 that we had for the Brantford area -- for the Brantford 9 Six Nations. 10 I was a Corporal at that time and we had 11 eight (8) Constables, and we did all the police patrol 12 and enforcement at that time for the territory. 13 Q: When you say "we", I take it you're 14 referring to the Ontario Provincial Police? 15 A: The Ontario Provincial Police. This 16 was just prior to the transition to First Nations 17 policing. 18 Q: And were you there for the transition 19 to First Nations policing? And I'm speaking specifically 20 about your posting as -- as Corporal at the Brantford 21 Detachment. 22 A: Yes, sir, I was. I can't recall 23 exactly what year it was, but we had two (2) First 24 Nations officers that came to Brantford from the north 25 and they worked with us and we basically trained or
341 assisted them in front-line policing. 2 Q: As part of this duty and as part of 3 your -- your involvement as Corporal, did you have any 4 involvement with the elected council of the Six Nations 5 Indian Reserve and, if so, what was that -- what kind of 6 interaction? 7 A: Part of my responsibilities as 8 supervisor -- I was also the liaison officer for 9 Brantford Detachment to the territory. I would attend 10 council meetings on a monthly basis and I would appear 11 before them and report on overall OPP policing activity 12 referring to different types of occurrences that may have 13 taken place or those types of policing issues that the 14 community would be interested in without revealing 15 obviously sensitive areas or operational issues. 16 Q: All right. In terms of your 17 involvement in other detachments that were unconnected to 18 First Nations territories or Indian reserves was there 19 any difference in terms of how you went about your 20 business? 21 A: Well, when we were -- when I first 22 got to the position the policing was essentially to a 23 large degree the same as it was off of the territory. 24 But as time went by, I mean, certainly we became aware 25 that the community had different goals, different
351 aspirations in the way that they wanted their community 2 policed and so they had a policing commission that was 3 part of the Council. And I think we tried to work with 4 them to resolve any differences of opinion that may have 5 arisen from time to time. 6 Clearly from a policing perspective we had 7 a view to enforcement where enforcement was appropriate. 8 But, sometimes there were differences of opinion as to 9 what the appropriate enforcement action might be. 10 Q: Okay. Can you provide us with any 11 more detail as to what it is the policing commission 12 attached to the Council thought -- 13 A: It was sometimes -- 14 Q: -- in terms of that difference of 15 opinion? I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm sorry. 16 A: There was a strong sense of having 17 more community involvement as to how an individual might 18 be dealt with with respect to maybe being taken home and 19 letting elders in the community deal with the situation, 20 that -- that type of thing. 21 It wasn't a formal process that we had any 22 structure to, it was just what we tried to develop in a - 23 - and I'm going to say basically we were trying to police 24 the community with respect yet we were still trying to 25 enforce the laws of Ontario and sometimes it came into
361 conflict. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I should say a difference of opinion 4 rather than conflict. 5 Q: In 1987, Mr. Parkin, you were 6 promoted to a sergeant and then to Staff Sergeant at Long 7 Sault Detachment? 8 A: That's correct, sir. I was 9 transferred to sergeant which at that time was the 10 detachment commander rank for that particular detachment. 11 During the time I was there there was an organizational 12 change, the rank was changed to a Staff Sergeant. My 13 responsibilities there included the management of the 14 detachment plus we had a liaison officer, First Nations 15 liaison officer which worked -- who worked for me. 16 And we were responsible for liaising with 17 the residents of Akwesasne. And the Akwesasne had a 18 police agency of their own but we assisted them from an 19 administrative point of view. 20 That also required me on a number of 21 occasions to attend Council meetings and meetings on the 22 territory of Akwesasne. 23 Q: You've described having meetings with 24 Council or the commission associated with the Council in 25 Six Nations in your -- in your previous role?
371 A: Yes. 2 Q: And now you -- you also met with 3 Council at Akwesasne? 4 A: Yes, but not specifically in the same 5 capacity. As I said I -- I had a First Nation -- First 6 Nations liaison officer working out of my detachment so 7 he did most of what I had done in -- in Brantford with 8 respect to reporting on policing events and keeping that 9 ongoing liaison. 10 But I would become involved when something 11 maybe a little more high profile was being anticipated in 12 the community or as a matter of interest I was invited to 13 attend, or if I just took it upon myself to go over to 14 the Council meeting with Constable Carrier (phonetic). 15 Q: All right. In terms of anything that 16 they might call you for is there anything, sir, that 17 sticks out in your mind today as -- to give us an example 18 of the types of issues that you might attend on? 19 A: Well, one (1) issue that I became 20 involved in with the Chief at that time, Mike Mitchell, 21 there was a march that was going to take place over the 22 bridge at Cornwall with respect to the Jay Treaty and the 23 bringing of goods from the United States into Canada. 24 And there was issues between the community of Akwesasne 25 with Canada Customs.
381 They wanted it to be done in a peaceful 2 manner and they wanted -- but it was going to require 3 tying up the bridge for a period of time. So along with 4 the Customs officials, along with the RCMP, the OPP and 5 meeting with Mr. Mitchell, we were able to orchestrate it 6 so that the demonstration went ahead, customs didn't 7 interfere with respect to prolonging the border crossing. 8 The bridge was tied up for a period of 9 time but there was no adverse affect on public safety or 10 the community. So everybody achieved their -- their 11 goal. 12 Q: And was this your first experience 13 with there being assertions of Treaty rights by 14 Aboriginal groups and -- and providing policing around 15 such assertion? 16 A: I would think that that was probably 17 one of the more significant ones that I can recall. But 18 clearly there were issues also around the management of 19 wildlife, fishing; that was also another issue that was 20 taking place at that time in the -- in the St. Lawrence 21 around Cornwall Island. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: At that time Akwesasne was demanding 24 that people, non-Native, that were fishing within the 25 waters around Cornwall Island actually have a license
391 that they would sell. And of course there was some 2 differences of opinion again there between the non-Native 3 anglers who wanted to fish in that area and the 4 enforcement officers for Akwesasne who were charged with 5 looking after what would be our -- for the Province would 6 be the Ministry of Natural Resources. 7 But they had their own officers that 8 looked after that. 9 Q: And just on that particular issue 10 around the assertion of what I take, that you're 11 describing an assertion of jurisdiction over resources 12 within Cornwall Island area? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Was there a role for the Ontario 15 Provincial Police in -- in policing that -- that issue? 16 A: We had to be cognisant of it from the 17 -- from the perspective that you can appreciate some non- 18 Native anglers in that area that might be approached by 19 the First Nations wanting or demanding that they purchase 20 a license, it set up the possibility for a confrontation 21 with respect to them not wanting to pay. 22 Q: All right. And just going back to 23 the -- to the demonstration, I think as you've described 24 it, by Chief Mike Mitchell of the Akwesasne territory or 25 reservation, I take it that that wasn't a blockade per
401 say? 2 A: No, sir. I wouldn't call it a 3 blockade. 4 Q: Up to that point in time, Mr. Parkin, 5 had you been involved in any types of situations or 6 demonstrations where blockades were employed by First 7 Nations demonstrators or protesters? 8 A: I don't recall any, sir. 9 Q: Okay. In 1989 you were promoted to 10 Inspector and transferred to the London District 11 Headquarters? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And your primary duties at that point 14 in time or your primary role, can you describe that for 15 us? 16 A: I was the Inspector for the District 17 as it was known at that time. I was second in command. 18 There would have been two (2) inspectors and we reported 19 to a superintendent. 20 I was in charge of the operation side of 21 the District and the other inspector would have had the 22 administration. And basically my role was to look after 23 -- to ensure that from an enforcement aspect, that we 24 were managing all of our programs, that the Detachments 25 were functioning properly; I would be on top of those
411 issues. 2 Q: As part of that role, did you have 3 any interaction with any First Nations communities in the 4 vicinity? 5 A: Not as hands on as I had been in the 6 other locations that I have spoken to, but clearly, if 7 there was an issue that was becoming of concern to a 8 Detachment, that had risen to a level that I had to 9 involve myself, then I would. 10 And there was an occasion that that did 11 take place in London Detachment. 12 Should I go on? 13 Q: Would you, please? 14 A: London Detachment was responsible for 15 providing policing services to the Oneida Settlement, 16 which is just to the south of London. 17 Now, they had First Nations constables 18 working, but sometimes, because they only had a few, 19 sometimes maybe two (2), sometimes maybe four (4), but 20 not always available, London Detachment would get calls, 21 perhaps to a bad car crash, perhaps to some other type of 22 incident that required immediate response. 23 London Detachment officers were responding 24 to those calls, but on a number of occasions, once they 25 entered the confines of the settlement, they would find
421 themselves being blocked off by unknown vehicles. And 2 then there was a demand by people in those vehicles to 3 know why they were there, where they were going, what 4 their purpose was. 5 The problem for our officers was that they 6 were seeing this as an officer safety issue. They didn't 7 like the fact that they were being confronted when they, 8 in their view, were being asked to respond to these 9 calls. 10 So clearly, we couldn't have this -- this 11 situation continue for fear that, at some point in time, 12 there was always a possibility that things could get out 13 of hand and something could go wrong. 14 So I was able to pull together a meeting 15 of -- not just one (1) meeting, but there was a number of 16 meetings, but with representatives from Oneida and from 17 the Detachment. We sat down and discussed how we were 18 going to resolve this issue. 19 Because clearly, it was uncomfortable for 20 both sides, but yet a policing service had to be 21 provided, and yet how could we do it safely? 22 And a protocol was developed which 23 essentially allowed that if a First Nations constable 24 wasn't readily available at -- at the time that the 25 police response was needed, and these were for more
431 serious occurrences, not things that could maybe be put 2 off for a while until a First Nations officer returned to 3 duty, a list of contact people was developed on Oneida 4 and contact people at the Detachment. 5 So even though it seemed to be a little 6 bit of a convoluted process, what would happen is, if a 7 call came in, then the dispatcher would immediately get a 8 hold of the first line supervisor who would, in all 9 likelihood, be a Sergeant running that Detachment at 10 night. He would have a list of the contact people on 11 Oneida; he would call them, advise that we had this call, 12 we were responding, and could they respond also. 13 And that, although it was very different 14 to the style of policing that the Detachment had been 15 used to providing, seemed to resolve those situations. 16 And the fact that, while it took a little longer, maybe, 17 to get through the process by having the First Nations 18 people attend and mediate, we stopped those 19 confrontations from happening on the roadside or just 20 inside the territory. 21 Q: Okay. In terms of the discussions 22 that led up to the -- to this policing protocol, do you 23 know who was involved in that from the First Nations 24 side? 25 Who would you have been working with?
441 A: Well, the Chief at that time was, and 2 I -- I can't remember his first name, but I believe it 3 was Day. 4 I have recollection that it was -- I 5 either dealt with Bruce Elijah at that time as one of the 6 -- one of the participants. 7 Q: Insofar as the development of this 8 protocol, how was that taken within your Detachment among 9 -- among the members under your command? 10 A: There was resistence by some because 11 it was a different way of providing policing. And at 12 that time I think that the police officers at that 13 Detachment viewed their role, from their training, as to 14 provide policing across the Province in the same fashion, 15 regardless of whether it involved First Nations territory 16 or not. 17 So it caused some of them concern as to 18 why are we doing this. We conducted some meetings, I 19 explained the rationale of the process, why we were 20 trying to do this. And, over time, I think it was 21 generally accepted. 22 Q: Okay. And I understand that, in -- 23 in and around 1989, that you were involved, at least in 24 some fashion, with the First Nation's blockade or -- or 25 some protest of some description on the 401.
451 Can you tell us something about that? 2 A: I wasn't directly involved in that, 3 sir. That was taking place in what was then called 4 Number One District down by Chatham. That was a 5 demonstration where First Nations, and you have to 6 forgive me if I don't get the exact details of this, but 7 they -- they wanted to hand out pamphlets to motorists on 8 the 401, basically outlining their concerns. As you can 9 appreciate, the 401 is a very heavily travelled high 10 speed highway. 11 So what they were able to co-ordinate was 12 through the OPP in Chatham, with our assistance; we 13 provided some resources with respect to personnel and 14 cruisers. And they were able to funnel the traffic down 15 to one lane on the 401, slow it down so that it could 16 safely pass by the First Nations persons that were on the 17 highway to give out their pamphlets. 18 And the concession from the First Nations 19 at the time was that -- they would only carry it on for, 20 I believe, an hour. And it went off and it was done in 21 safety. 22 Q: All right. And as I look at your 23 curriculum vitae under the entry of 1989 to '93, I'm 24 looking now at the third full sentence: 25 "Developed the skills and abilities
461 required for incident command in 2 relation to supervising and directing 3 team participation at serious 4 occurrences." 5 Perhaps you can just tell us what -- what 6 that entails. 7 A: Yes, I can, sir. I would like to 8 qualify that incident command at that time, when I was an 9 incident commander, is significantly different than the 10 expectations of an incident commander when I retired. 11 What I mean by that is, in 1989 when you 12 were promoted to a commission officer or inspector and 13 you were at a field location, that is, essentially, 14 anywhere outside of general headquarters, part of the job 15 was that you were an incident commander. So it wasn't a 16 voluntary process. 17 The expectation was, by virtue of your 18 rank, you would assume that responsibility. Now there 19 was training provided. I took courses in -- at the 20 Ottawa Police College with respect to barricaded and 21 hostage situations, negotiator training. I took courses 22 within the OPP with respect to incident command. 23 But the rest of the training that I 24 developed was through experience, hands on, responding to 25 calls, by going out with the tactical team and watching
471 them go through their training scenarios, by firing their 2 weaponry, not to any level of expertise but just so that 3 I was familiar with what it was. 4 But that -- that was essentially the 5 training. It was a lot of -- the -- the more calls you 6 went on the more experienced you got and the more you 7 could do yourself to help your skills, that's how you 8 developed. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: It's much different today. 11 Q: And just with respect to that 12 training, you took training as -- as you described it 13 over the period of 1989 to 1993; is that fair? 14 A: That would be fair. 15 Q: All right. You've served then as a 16 Level 2 Incident Commander and I appreciate it might not 17 have been called a Level 2 Incident Commander? 18 A: That's correct. That terminology 19 didn't come in -- I forget exactly when the Level 2 20 terminology came in. But an incident commander, again 21 back in 1989, it required that a commissioned officer, 22 every time there was a tactical call or a TRU Team was 23 dispatched that an incident commander of a commissioned 24 officer level had to attend with them. 25 Q: Okay. You've described some of the
481 training and the experience that you had or -- or rather 2 the training on the job, if I can put it that way, 3 insofar as at least the experience? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Can you tell us about some of those 6 particular incidences? 7 A: Over -- over the years there -- there 8 was many calls that -- that I went to, most would be 9 along the barricaded -- individual barricaded person in a 10 residence with a gun. One (1) of the criteria for 11 dispatching a TRU team was that there was knowledge of -- 12 of weapons. 13 And so those were, I don't what to call 14 them routine but those were frequent types of calls. 15 But, then again, there were of course more unpleasant 16 ones such as hostage taking or murder/suicide. 17 Q: All right. I understand that you 18 would have attended at a particular incident where you 19 would have worked with John Carson, Inspector Carson? 20 A: Yes, sir, that's true. It was in the 21 town of Bell River. For whatever reasons they didn't 22 have an incident commander readily available from the 23 area so I was sent down from London. 24 I arrived at the command post, was quickly 25 being brought up to speed with what was taking place and
491 -- and this was a barricaded individual in a house 2 threatening suicide. And subsequently John Carson came 3 over to the Command Post from the negotiating room and I 4 believe that that was the first time that I met John 5 Carson. And at that time he was in the capacity of the 6 team leader of the negotiators. 7 Q: I see. Do you know how that -- how 8 that situation resolved if it -- if -- 9 A: Yes, it carried on for a fairly 10 lengthy period of time. I'm -- I'm not talking weeks, 11 but I believe it was over a day and eventually the 12 individual came out of the house and gave himself up -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- through the negotiations. 15 Q: You've also mentioned, sir, that you 16 would have attended with tactical teams as part of the 17 experience that you would have gained as an incident 18 commander? 19 A: Yes, there would have been a tactical 20 team involved in that one and the murder/suicide that I 21 did in Delaware involved a tactical team. Because it -- 22 at the time of course we didn't know what we were dealing 23 with. 24 Q: All right. The murder/suicide that 25 you've described or that you've alluded to in Delaware,
501 you would have been involved with Wade Lacroix at that 2 point? 3 A: Yes, sir, I was. Wade Lacroix was 4 the leader of the tactical team that -- that I worked 5 with on that call. 6 Q: All right. And just so I understand 7 these two (2) incidents that you've described, were those 8 in relation to First Nations territories or individuals? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Had you ever had any experience in 11 calling TRU to First Nations communities or with respect 12 to an incident involving First Nations up to that point? 13 A: I'd never worked with the TRU team on 14 a First Nations territory. No, sir. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: You've told us earlier, sir, about 20 you developed or come to develop an understanding about 21 how policing and First Nations communities might be 22 approached differently, if I can put it than way, than 23 non-First Nations communities, and you would go through a 24 process of, perhaps, informing members under your command 25 as to why that was so.
511 A: Yes, sir. Starting -- going back to 2 Six Nations, by the virtue of the fact of being a liaison 3 officer and I don't purport to have had an extensive 4 knowledge of First Nations culture prior to that, but 5 when I was working directly down there, of course, and 6 reporting to council, inevitably you got into 7 conversations dealing with the local representatives and 8 meeting the local people. 9 So, slowly over time you start to learn 10 and, of course, every place that I went to after that, 11 again, was, you know, a further learning experience. 12 Q: Okay. As part of this learning 13 experience, and as part of your becoming knowledgeable of 14 -- of the governing structures of First Nations 15 communities, what did you learn about the governing 16 structures insofar as perhaps divisions that might -- 17 A: Well, I did -- I also might add that 18 I did have -- it wasn't called a cultural awareness 19 course at that time, but it was a course specifically 20 designed for OPP members that were involved in First 21 Nations liaison. 22 So, in fact it -- it did provide some 23 cultural awareness, so I had that training also. 24 But, I mean, I clearly started to learn 25 about the fact that many territories had an elected
521 council and then there was also a hereditary side to the 2 -- or traditional, if you will, side. 3 And sometimes they didn't always agree 4 with respect to the governance of the particular 5 territory and I began to see that it became clear that 6 sometimes the -- the Chief of the council himself had a 7 difficult time sometimes trying to work with and ensure 8 the goals of all his people were met. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: And the council, I felt, the local 11 councillors, at least the meetings that I met to, were 12 somewhat like some city councils would be. 13 I mean, their representatives were there 14 from their different respective areas of the territory. 15 They asked me questions with respect to policing in their 16 areas. 17 It's like over time you -- you developed, 18 I'm not going to say an expertise, but at least a level 19 of knowledge that decidedly made you aware that some of 20 the requirements in policing those communities was 21 different, and had to be dealt with differently. 22 Q: All right. And I was just going to 23 ask you that. How -- how if -- if at all, did that 24 impact, that is the fact that there was, in some 25 instances at least as you've described it, an elected
531 council and perhaps a hereditary council? 2 How did that impact on policing issues? 3 A: Well, I think from the time frames of 4 my -- my career, as you can see, back in the '70's, 5 things have changed immensely with respect to how we 6 provide policing services to First Nations territory over 7 the years. 8 And it continues to evolve and we continue 9 to be -- to be better at it. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I'm not putting myself here as if I 12 was the only one seeing this. I think the organization 13 as a whole was -- was coming to grips with the fact that 14 it just wasn't as easy as we were the police and we will 15 basically tell you how we're going to do it. 16 There had to be discussion and what we 17 started to do was to develop a policing methodology, much 18 like we would do with respect to, say, London City. We 19 were the OPP. We patrolled around London City, but we 20 didn't police London City. But sometimes our policing 21 requirements took us into the City. 22 So we would never go in there without 23 asking, so why would we expect to do that anywhere else. 24 So we began to take that type of approach to these 25 issues.
541 Q: All right. Given that there was this 2 accommodation if I can put it that way and I -- I realize 3 you've already told us that you've had no experience in 4 calling TRU to a First Nations community, but did your 5 standard operating procedures -- 6 A: Sir -- 7 Q: Sorry, go ahead. 8 A: -- I had no experience at that time 9 with being on the ground with the tactical team. But 10 later on in my career I -- I did have occasion where I 11 would have called an inspector, appointed him as a 12 incident commander to work through an issue that was 13 taking place on a territory. 14 Q: All right. And the question that I 15 simply wanted to ask you is, when TRU is called to a 16 First Nations community, was there any distinctions made 17 as to your standard operating procedures as to how that 18 would unfold? 19 A: That was evolving as clearly as we 20 were -- as I was a superintendent, I believe. They were 21 -- we were moving towards -- once I was promoted to 22 superintendent and I went up to Sault Ste. Marie, I 23 essentially left behind the role of incident commander 24 unless there was -- there wasn't an inspector available. 25 I still had the ability to do the job but
551 that would be then put down an inspector. 2 Q: Your curriculum vitae indicates that 3 you were promoted to superintendent in 1993, you were 4 then transferred to Sault Ste. Marie, I think you've just 5 confirmed that. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Your responsibility at 8 that point then was for all policing within that area? 9 A: Yes, and the District of Algoma. And 10 again that was back when we had the district system. I 11 was up there and of course my -- I had overall 12 responsibility for all the provision of policing services 13 within that area. 14 I was senior commanding officer in that 15 district. 16 Q: All right. And within that district 17 I take it that you might have some involvement with First 18 Nations communities? 19 A: Yes. Again at a -- at a different 20 level, at a higher level if you will. The expectation 21 would be that the Detachment commander in -- in the local 22 area whether it be Serpent River, or Rankin, Garden 23 River, would do that first line, if you will, liaison. 24 But from -- from -- I made it a personal 25 goal of mine when I was there to get to every territory
561 in the district at least once during the year to meet the 2 chief. And some of them as you can appreciate in that 3 area, were fairly remote. 4 So, I tried to make sure I supported the 5 Detachments in trying to provide liaison, work with First 6 Nations. 7 Q: Were there First Nations policing 8 services in these communities that you've just described 9 in that district to your recollection? 10 A: Yes, there was in -- in Garden River. 11 But in some of the communities there wasn't so that would 12 be provided by the OPP Detachment nearest to that 13 territory. 14 Q: All right. And the relationship that 15 you've described earlier insofar as a protocol, do you 16 know whether there was any difference when you were the 17 superintendent of that district as to how those 18 communities were policed? I'm sorry, it's -- 19 A: Which protocol, sir? 20 Q: Just the -- just the protocol that 21 you've described earlier where if you were going to be 22 policing a particular territory that -- that perhaps 23 advance contact might be made to let the community know, 24 that sort of thing? 25 Do you know if that sort of continued?
571 A: Sorry. Certainly as a district 2 commander I would have Detachment commander meetings. 3 And we would discuss different operational policing 4 practices and I'm sure I would have reinforced a need for 5 sensitivity in those areas. 6 Q: Okay. At that was the question I was 7 going to ask you, whether you had any role in confirming 8 that that sort of sort of sensitivity continued to -- to 9 be applied. 10 A: That would have been the message that 11 I would have delivered to the Detachment commanders and 12 the liaison officers. 13 Q: Thank you. In June of 1995, you were 14 appointed the operational superintendent of Southwestern 15 Ontario, reporting to Chief Superintendent Chris Coles. 16 A: That's correct, sir. 17 Q: And we were told something about this 18 by Chief Coles himself that there had been a transition 19 or a change in the policing structure. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. As operational 22 superintendent, what was your general duty, sir? 23 A: Well, at that time it was very multi- 24 faceted and I think we all wore many hats. Even though I 25 was -- was referred to as the Operational Superintendent,
581 not only was I responsible for trying to assist 2 detachments in ensuring that we were providing 3 operational policing services to the public, both from 4 criminal investigation as well as traffic enforcement and 5 marine and all those other operational requirements, we 6 were also trying to pull together this new region which 7 was a -- was a very large task. 8 And there was -- there was a lot of 9 budgetary issues, personnel, there were new positions 10 being created that we hadn't had before. We were trying 11 to break down the old district walls and everybody become 12 part of this one (1) western region. And so it was -- it 13 was a very busy time. 14 Q: You would have had a counterpart as 15 administrative superintendent? 16 A: Yes, Superintendent Baranoski. 17 Q: And the relationship between you and 18 Superintendent Baranoski, what was that? 19 Q: We would have had a very close 20 relationship at that time. And many times we would have 21 probably been crossing into each other's areas and 22 assisting one another. 23 Q: Did you work out of the same office? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Around the same time Ron
591 Fox would have become involved or you would have become 2 involved with him in some fashion? 3 A: Well, Ron Fox came to the region, I'm 4 not sure exactly when, if it was late '95 or maybe '96, 5 but I had known Ron Fox for most of my career. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I want to take you next, sir, to your 11 handwritten notes which are at Tab 2 in the book of 12 documents before you. 13 A: Your Honour, may I refer to my copy 14 of my own notes? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are they the 16 same? 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps, Commissioner, 18 what I -- what I simply want to indicate at this point is 19 that there seems to...we have distributed a more 20 expansive copy of Mr. Parkin's notes and you'll find 21 those at Tab 46 of the book of documents in front of you. 22 They cover the period from May 31st, 1995 23 to February 28th, 1995. These documents are properly -- 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: '96. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry? '96, correct.
601 I stand corrected on that. It's February 28th, 1996. As 2 I've indicated they are a more expansive version of the - 3 - of the notes that had previously been provided and they 4 are, as well, properly redacted. They are some one 5 hundred and four (104) pages long. 6 What we do have in front of us at Tab 2, I 7 believe, is Officer Parkin's notes, as he was then, from 8 July 29th until September the 8th and they -- they've 9 already been marked as an exhibit 499. 10 And what I'm going to suggest is that 11 those notes that I've just referred to at Tab 42, the 12 more expansive and properly redacted copy, replace the 13 notes that are at Tab 2; in other words replace Exhibit 14 499. 15 I -- I suppose the alternative is, is I 16 could simply ask that they be made the next exhibit, but 17 I don't want to add the additional confusion that that 18 might entail. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 20 what's the best way. I don't know if we want to replace 21 499. Why don't we just add the exhibit? I mean, do you 22 have -- 23 MR. MARK SANDLER: I think the thinking 24 was that -- that we were replacing this exhibit because 25 some redactions were inadvertently omitted in the
611 original notes when they were -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I see. 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- filed as an 4 exhibit. So this is -- this is more complete in a 5 sense -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A more -- 7 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- that it's a wider 8 period but the redactions are correct and -- and approved 9 of by the -- by the Commission. 10 And -- and Mr. Parkin has with him his 11 original notes that correspond. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which is the 13 same as what appears at 46; is that right? 14 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct, 15 Commissioner. 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. You 18 want to replace Exhibit 499? 19 MR. DONALD WORME: I would like -- I 20 would like to have that replaced, and again, the primary 21 reason is that it is more -- a more complete record and 22 perhaps, more importantly, is that it has been redacted. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So this 24 would now become Exhibit 499, is that your suggestion? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: That's what I would be
621 asking. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Does 3 anybody have any objection? I can't see why anybody 4 would, it's a more fulsome copy of the notes and that's 5 the one you're going to be referring to. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 8 why don't we make that Exhibit P-499. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-499, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-499 (REPLACEMENT): 12 Document number 2005524. Handwritten 13 notes of Anthony Parkin May 31/95 to 14 Feb.28/96 and Document Number 2003790 15 Statement of C/Supt. Anthony Parkin March 16 30/04. Replacing handwritten notes only 17 of Tony Parkin Document Number 2003790. 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And replace 20 the abbreviated version which is now P-499. Abbreviated 21 and redacted. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:
631 Q: I should say that that new -- the new 2 exhibit then, 499, is Inquiry document number 2005524. 3 Sorry, excuse me one moment. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And just more for the record, as 8 well, that those -- that Inquiry document 2005524 had 9 been sent out to the parties as of last week. 10 Just before we get into your actual notes 11 then, Mr. Parkin, I wonder if you could describe your 12 note -- your note taking, what was your training in that, 13 what was your habit, if I can put it that way, insofar as 14 the creation of -- of your own notes? 15 A: Well, as a Superintendent at that 16 level, they were different than notes that I may have 17 taken when I was an investigating officer actually 18 investigating occurrences or crime scenes. 19 I took notes more in an administrative 20 capacity, to jot down significant thoughts or issues, 21 perhaps, of the day. 22 Some phone calls; I certainly wouldn't 23 have recorded all the phone calls that I was involved in. 24 Essentially, anything that I thought I should make a note 25 of, I may have to refer to or get back to somebody on.
641 But they weren't as detailed. 2 Q: All right. Let's maybe then turn to 3 your notes. At the first page, the heading that I have 4 is May 31st -- pardon me, Wednesday, 31st May, '95. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: All right. And I don't -- I don't 7 expect to take you through everything, but just so as I 8 get a sense of this, at 08:15 hours you're at district 9 headquarters. That would be in London? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That was your London office, and 12 you've described it as administrative duties. 13 A: Yeah, that would generally be 14 reviewing some paperwork, talking to whoever was in the 15 office about perhaps anything that might be going on, or 16 things that we had to do. 17 Just generally getting prepared for the 18 day. 19 Q: And at 09:45 hours: 20 "Admin preparing for transfer." 21 I take it that that's the transfer from 22 Sault Ste. Marie to London? 23 A: I would take it to be that, yes. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Probably doing some paperwork related
651 to that or dealing with house relocation. 2 Q: All right. And at page 2 of that 3 document it looks like you then travelled from Sault Ste. 4 Marie to London? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: On Monday the 5th of June, 1995 you 7 were now at the London Regional Office? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And having moved into this new 14 position, I wonder if you would just go ahead and 15 describe for us what the command structure was, what your 16 role would be? 17 A: As a superintendent of operations I 18 reported directly to Chief Superintendent Chris Coles, 19 who was the Regional Commander. 20 We had a number of inspectors at that 21 time; they weren't all physically relocated, but they 22 were part of the new structure. 23 We had an inspector for criminal 24 investigations, for traffic and marine programs, for 25 staff development and training, those types of issues.
661 And those -- and we -- then it would go 2 down to your detachment commanders who were deployed in 3 various detachments throughout the region. 4 Q: All right. And so the chain of 5 command up would be yourself reporting directly to Chief 6 Superintendent Coles? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Would you have direct contact with 9 the Commissioner? 10 A: If I did, it would be very infrequent 11 and it would be very unusual that I would pick up the 12 phone and call him. 13 Q: Would you have any contact with the - 14 - with the Ministry's office from your position as 15 operational superintendent? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Would you be aware of any contact as 18 between the Minister's office and any other level of 19 authority; the Commissioner's office, for example? 20 A: Well, you know, clearly there was a 21 relationship at the Deputy Commissioner and 22 Commissioner's level with respect to the Deputy Minister 23 and the Solicitor General. 24 And an information flow and exchange in 25 government priorities with respect to policing, those
671 types of discussions, yes. 2 Q: All right. But no direct contact 3 between your offices and -- and the Ministry? 4 A: Not from my -- not from me. 5 Q: Okay. I want to turn next to the -- 6 to the Ipperwash situation and perhaps just ask you, 7 generally, when did you first become aware of -- of a 8 situation involving either relative to the CFB Ipperwash 9 or the Provincial Park? 10 A: I -- I can't recall the exact dates 11 but I would -- I had been in Number 2 District prior to 12 my transfer; I was transferred in '93 up to Sault Ste. 13 Marie. During that time, of course, there was the 14 movement into the outlying area of the military base. 15 I was made aware of it, whether through 16 the media or discussions with other officers, personnel; 17 I was aware that that had taken place. I became aware of 18 the helicopter incident while I was up north, again, 19 probably through the media and -- and internal 20 discussions. 21 Q: Okay. Do you have recollection of 22 any of the specifics of what you might have become aware 23 of, either through the media or particularly through 24 internal discussions? 25 A: No. Anything -- I was just aware
681 that, in general, this was taking place in Southern 2 Ontario. 3 Q: All right. Sir, we -- we were told 4 something about a management committee that also existed 5 within the command structure of the Ontario Provincial 6 Police. 7 A: That was at General Headquarters. At 8 that time it was called Management Committee. It was 9 where the Commissioner and the Deputies and various 10 Chiefs from General Headquarters and Regional Commanders 11 would meet on a monthly basis, generally monthly, to 12 discuss force wide issues, everything from money, 13 financial, human resources, operational issues. 14 Q: And did you have any role in -- in 15 either attending at or participating in these Management 16 Committee meetings? 17 A: The only time at that point in my 18 career that I would have, would be if Chief Coles was 19 unavailable or asked me to attend in his stead. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Given the -- the fact that you have 24 now moved to the London office and responsible for the 25 district that covers Ipperwash --
691 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: -- were you aware of the command 3 structure that had been established to deal with the 4 Ipperwash situation? 5 A: I became aware of the fact that John 6 Carson had been the Incident Commander, with respect to 7 this issue, for some time. 8 Q: All right. And do you know when you 9 became aware of that? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: All right. Can I ask you to turn to 12 your page 5, which is Tuesday the 20th of June 1995 of P- 13 499? 14 A: 20th of June? Yes. 15 Q: Correct. And you'll see at 10:00 16 hours there's a meeting re. Camp Ipperwash, Stoney Point 17 situation. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And Detective Serg -- Detective 20 Sergeant Mark Wright, and then there's an indication of 21 Staff Sergeant -- is that Inspector Carson? Does that 22 carry on there? 23 A: No, it goes: Inspector Carson, 24 Inspector Hutchison, Chief Superintendent Coles, myself, 25 and Superintendent Baranoski. I left the -- I left the
701 Staff Sergeant's name out. 2 Q: All right. And you'll see that that 3 meeting had resumed at 13:00 hours? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: All right. And identified as being 6 responsible for operational issues in the region. I take 7 it that that refers to yourself since you were the 8 Operational Superintendent? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. Can you recall, sir, 11 whether Inspector -- Inspector Linton was present at that 12 meeting? Of course I note it -- it's not in your notes 13 but do you have an independent recall whether Inspector 14 Linton would have been there? 15 A: No, sir, I don't. 16 Q: All right. And the only reason I ask 17 you that is that when Inspector Carson testified -- 18 testified here he spoke to the meeting of June 20th and 19 his recollection was that Inspector Linton was in fact 20 present. 21 Does that -- does that help you at all? 22 A: It doesn't help me but I wouldn't 23 disagree. 24 Q: All right. And would it be fair to 25 say that this meeting was one of the first where
711 everybody was sort of coming up to speed in terms of what 2 the situation was at Ipperwash? 3 A: I believe that that was the 4 preliminary meeting, yes. 5 Q: Commissioner, I know we -- I know we 6 just started just a little over an hour ago but I wonder 7 if we just might take a few moments? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 9 like to take a break now? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not lunch, 12 just a short break? 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Just a short break. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 Let's do that. Let's take a morning break. We haven't 16 had a morning break except for a change in witness or 17 making arrangements for the Witness. So let's take a 18 break now. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 12:04 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 12:22 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
721 resumed. Please be seated. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, 3 Commissioner. Perhaps just before I continue I just want 4 to speak to a couple of matters. The exhibit that I had 5 re-numbered as 499, the old 499 contained a statement 6 which you will find at Tab 44 of the book of documents 7 which is Mr. Parkin's statement of March 2004; that -- 8 that was not made part of the new Exhibit 499. 9 I apologize for that but I would ask that 10 that be made part of that exhibit as well please. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. So 12 this -- 13 MR. DONALD WORME: And I thank Mr. 14 Registrar for bringing that -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: -- to my attention. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 So it was 499 and it still is? 19 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: The other -- the other 22 thing and that I had neglected to make Mr. Parkin's 23 curriculum vitae an exhibit and I would ask that be made 24 an exhibit now, please. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1054, Your Honour.
731 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1054. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1054: Curriculum Vitae of Anthony 5 Parkin. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: And perhaps lastly, just before I 9 carry on, I've placed in front of Mr. Parkin a briefing 10 note from the Interministerial Policy Forum dated 11 November 26th of 1991. 12 It's marked already as Exhibit P-472 and 13 it's under the issue protesters/blockade/dissent and it 14 simply sets out an Interministerial policy which we've 15 had much evidence about already in these proceedings. 16 I simply want to ask Mr. Parkin whether or 17 not, (1) he's familiar with this particular document, 18 whether you had any role in its creation and lastly 19 whether you were aware of the policy that it seems to 20 reflect? 21 A: I can't recall ever seeing this 22 particular document, but I am aware of the general policy 23 that it lays out and I have read this policy. I just 24 don't know if it was on this document. 25
741 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Okay, thank you. We were looking at 4 your handwritten notes, then, and that is found at our 5 Tab 46; that is the new Exhibit 499. 6 If I can ask you to -- I think we left off 7 at what I've -- what I've got marked and what other 8 Counsel will have marked as page 5 at the top. I realize 9 that our numbering may not coincide. 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And that was Tuesday the 20th of 12 June, 1995. 13 Perhaps I can ask you then to turn to your 14 page 7, which would be your notations of Wednesday the 15 28th of June 1995. Do you see that, sir? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And at 0815 hours in the morning 18 you're again at District Headquarters on that date. 19 Administrative duties, I take it, is what you've got 20 notated there? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: At 0900 hours you're reviewing or 23 engaged in the process of reviewing important issues and 24 concerns Ipperwash heating up. 25 First of all, sir, do you have a specific
751 recollection of that meeting on the 28th where this 2 review had occurred? 3 A: I don't know if that was a meeting, 4 sir. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: It could have been a phone call that 7 was -- that brought this information to my attention. 8 Q: In any event, it's now brought to 9 your attention that Ipperwash is heating up, as you've 10 indicated there. There's some notation of criminal 11 activity by, I take it that's Glenn George? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And an invest? Is that an 14 investigation by provincial Constable George Speck? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And if you'll just help me out here. 17 "Charges of assault and threatening 18 pending"? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. 21 "Captain Doug Smith, military police, 22 being assigned by the military"? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Beyond which you have noted here, do 25 you have any recollection and again, you might have
761 already spoken to this, sir, but do you have any 2 recollection of any further detail beyond that? 3 A: I just believed that there had been 4 an altercation between Glenn George and somebody at the 5 base, at the military base, and he had been assigned or 6 was investigating. 7 I don't believe I was talking to George 8 Speck. The information would have been provided to me 9 that George Speck was investigating and that those were 10 the possible charges that might result. 11 Q: All right. And at 1330 hours you 12 would have attended "to Ipperwash, to Grand Bend and to 13 Forest with Inspector Carson"? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: All right. Aside from the -- the 16 notations that you have, do you have any independent 17 recall of -- of those, and I realize that that is some 18 considerable time ago. 19 A: I somewhat recall the trip. Again, 20 this was also a -- provided me with an opportunity to get 21 a general awareness of the area, to -- the lay of the 22 land, so to speak. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Meet -- I believe I had -- I didn't 25 know Charlie Bouwman that well, so it gave me an
771 opportunity to go to the Detachment and interact. 2 Q: And it would appear that Staff 3 Sergeant Bouwman might have given you some information 4 regarding the investigation, I take it, that he was 5 involved in? Is that -- 6 A: I doubt that he would have been 7 involved in them. He was probably just telling me about 8 some of the things that might have taken place at the 9 military base overnight, given that he was the Detachment 10 Commander and -- and responsible for policing in that 11 area. 12 Q: And the last notation on that date is 13 at 19:30 hours, that you would have gone back to District 14 Headquarters together with Inspector Carson, by the 15 appearance of your note? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: On Thursday the 29th of June, which 18 is the next notation, sir, on your page 7, commences 19 again at 08:00 hours at District Headquarters and 20 administrative duties seemed to be the order of the 21 morning. 22 Do you see that? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: You met, subsequently, it would 25 appear, with Staff Sergeant -- that would be Kent
781 Skinner? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: All right. And he is the TRU leader? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Your notes would indicate: 6 "Reviewed new responsibilities with 7 regional perspective." 8 Can you tell us whether or not Ipperwash 9 was part of the discussion? 10 A: No, sorry, I -- I could not. 11 Q: Can you -- can you tell us anything 12 about that meeting with TRU leader Kent Skinner? 13 A: I sense that meeting would have been 14 more around the fact that the -- because we -- we're now 15 becoming a region, that that would impact somewhat on the 16 deployment of the Tactical resources and that they would 17 be available to a broader area and be...so as to how that 18 would work, call out procedures, more the internal 19 workings of the Tactical Team within the region. 20 Q: Okay. And so this is along the lines 21 of the transition that you've described for us earlier? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: From -- from the district to the 24 region concept? 25 A: Yes.
791 Q: All right. At 13:00 hours you were 2 at Regional Office and discussed operational issues with 3 Chief Superintendent Coles, ie. Ipperwash. 4 Again, I'm going to ask you whether you 5 have any particular recollection of what that discussion 6 was about, what sort of operational issues might have 7 been discussed? 8 A: No, sir, I don't. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I -- I do with the second part of it, 11 if that's part of your question. 12 Q: And -- and what is that? 13 A: Well we had discussion around a call 14 that had taken place in another location within the 15 region and a debriefing with respect to how it was 16 handled. 17 Q: All right. Okay, fine. Sir, on June 18 30th you had attended at the Forest Detachment to meet 19 with Inspector John Carson and Acting Staff Sergeant 20 Wright? 21 A: What date is that, sir? 22 Q: The 30th of July 1995. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
801 A: Sunday the 30th of July, rest day? 2 Yes, sir. 3 Q: And notwithstanding that that was a 4 rest day, it would appear that your next entry is that 5 Chief Superintendent Coles called and requested that you 6 attend at the Forest Detachment. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And that, specifically, as your notes 9 would indicate, in relation to the takeover of the 10 military base at Camp Ipperwash. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Okay. And having an opportunity to 13 review your notes, can you tell us what was discussed at 14 the meeting, what focus was taken? 15 A: Well, on the instructions of Chief 16 Coles, I -- I did attend Forest Detachment. By the time 17 I got there, there were a number of people. I probably 18 don't have them all captured and perhaps don't have all 19 their names captured in my notes. 20 But John Carson was there and Mark Wright, 21 and basically they gave me a briefing on the events as to 22 what had taken place. 23 And then there's the actions that -- that 24 I took with respect to calling Chief Superintendent Coles 25 and subsequently, of course, he made calls to Deputy
811 Commissioner Nagel and Marilyn Murray so that, 2 essentially, the people that had to know what was taking 3 place within the province were aware. 4 And there were -- military media relations 5 were there, Mark Boffi and a Captain Landale. It would 6 appear I received information that Sergeant Scott Patrick 7 was talking to the Ontario Native Affairs Secretariat. 8 Q: And just let me stop you there for a 9 moment. You're familiar with Sergeant Scott Patrick? 10 A: Yes, sir, I am. 11 Q: And what was his role? 12 A: Well, at that time I knew that he was 13 working in conjunction with Ron Fox. Specifically what 14 his role was I -- I don't believe I was aware of at the 15 time, I just knew that he was working in that area. 16 Q: All right. Go ahead, continue. 17 A: And I had discussion with John Carson 18 and Mark Wright in -- to develop an operational plan. 19 I'm sure much of that would have already been done by the 20 time I arrived there or in the process of being done. 21 Q: In terms of the discussion about an 22 operational plan with those two (2) individuals, what was 23 your role in terms of developing that operational plan, 24 if any? 25 A: It would be more listening than
821 talking. I would -- I would expect that by the time I 2 got there that most of this would have been done. As 3 John, again, was in that incident commander role he would 4 have been well ahead of me in thinking about the 5 necessary steps to take. 6 But, clearly, we did discuss public -- 7 public safety, given the situation, the Camp Ipperwash, 8 with respect to policing, and it had come out that, 9 again, there was a concern with respect to the Provincial 10 Park, Ipperwash Provincial Park. 11 Q: And just on that note, sir, with 12 respect to the concern about the Provincial Park, do you 13 know how that was raised or what specifically the concern 14 was? 15 A: I think it was to the extent that 16 that was the -- the next issue we were going to have to 17 deal with and somebody overheard that comment being made, 18 I believe, was -- how it came about. 19 Q: All right. And just continue, if you 20 would, please? 21 A: And they -- they would be telling me 22 this. So they were attempting, and that would be whoever 23 John had assigned to that, to develop a communication 24 with an identified spokesperson for the occupiers. 25 They had developed, again, like I said, a
831 -- they'd already developed a basic plan which was 2 twenty-four (24) hour, two (2) person uniformed patrols 3 of the Ipperwash Park. 4 There was a plan to put some plainclothes 5 members in the Park camping area, as campers, strictly 6 for the purposes of the intelligence gathering, if 7 possible. 8 The ERT which would be Emergency Response 9 Team, that's not a -- not a tactical team but Emergency 10 Response Team would be housed off-site for rapid response 11 in an emergency. So that was just an ability that if 12 additional resources were needed, that they would be 13 handy, not that they were there to be used. 14 A media officer, a press officer, was 15 identified. 16 Q: Now, was that at the bottom of that 17 page because I think my page is -- is cut off? 18 A: Yes, it is, a press officer 19 identified. I don't have noted who that was. 20 Q: I take it you don't have an 21 independent recall of who that might be? 22 A: No, sir, I don't. 23 Q: All right. It continues on the next 24 page which is page 14. 25 A: Yes, they were going to continue to -
841 - and attempt to open dialogue at the front gate of the 2 Base. Bert Manning, apparently, was the one presently 3 speaking. 4 Q: Just let me back you up a bit. This 5 -- this continued attempt to open a dialogue at the front 6 gate, your note would indicate, "with the militants," and 7 I'm just interested in the -- in the recording of that -- 8 of that word 'militants'. 9 Was that the term that was used to 10 describe? 11 A: I think there were many terms used, 12 that may have been just one that I used at that time. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 14 to object to a question, Mr. Falconer? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I don't want to 16 object -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, okay. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- to the question. 19 I do want to raise an issue. I think Mr. Worme quite 20 properly put on the record that there's portions of the 21 officer's notes in his original that aren't reproduced on 22 the copy. 23 For example, the bottom of the last page-- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- he just did.
851 I'm just wondering if we can create some kind of formal 2 process by -- without bogging us down, by which -- 3 MR. MARK SANDLER: We did. You got an e- 4 mail about the entries, all of them. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's solved, 6 problem solved? 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Apparently the 8 problem is solved. I simply didn't see the e-mail. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. I 11 apologize. 12 MR. MARK SANDLER: A notice has been sent 13 out with the entries -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The bottom 15 pieces. 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- that didn't make 17 their way -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, the 19 last line -- 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: I apologize, I didn't 21 know -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 23 thank you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:
861 Q: I thank My Friend for that. I was 2 going to mention that and I ought to have done so -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: -- immediately. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: I'm sorry. Mr. Parkin, you'd 8 indicated that just beyond that, that that was one of the 9 words that -- that might have been used and it's one that 10 obviously you've recorded. 11 A: Yes. That may have been my word. 12 Q: Okay. And then beyond that, the next 13 entry is: 14 "Bert Manning presently speaking." 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: All right. Can I get you just to 17 continue with that -- with that particular entry? 18 A: They were going to continue to 19 attempt to gather intelligence information. Apparently 20 George Speck and Detective Sergeant Mark Wright had been 21 assigned that overall task. 22 They were planning to have twenty-four 23 (24) hour NCO supervision to be instituted and John, 24 apparently, was going to pick those individuals himself. 25 And I -- and I used the word competent and I believe he
871 wanted people that were aware of the location, the issues 2 surrounding the base and that weren't, let's say, taken 3 from a Detachment somewhere that had no knowledge of what 4 they were dealing with. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Again, emergency response teams in -- 7 in 2 and 6. That would be districts 2 and 6, put -- 8 basically would be called to be put on standby, just a 9 heads-up to keep their kit and equipment ready. 10 An issue sheet would be submitted. Again, 11 up through channels to keep general headquarters apprised 12 of the situation. 13 Police were to protect public safety and 14 try not to become the focal point of the dispute. 15 Monitoring capability only. 16 Q: Is that capacity, perhaps? 17 A: Yes. Thank you, yeah. Monitoring 18 capacity only, yes. 19 Q: Thank you. 20 A: Ministry of Natural Resources, Don 21 Matheson, who was the assistant Park superintendent was 22 brought in and advised of our position, that would be the 23 OPP position and our concerns. 24 That would have taken place in -- I think 25 he came late to the meeting, if I --
881 Q: I -- 2 A: If I'm correct. 3 Q: All right. And that's what I was 4 going to ask you, if I can -- if I can maybe just 5 interrupt, that some of the things that you're 6 discussing, previous to that, would seem to be 7 operational issues. 8 Would you agree with that? 9 A: Some of them, yes. 10 Q: All right. And the fact that you've 11 recorded it as Don Matheson, assistant Park 12 superintendent was brought in, and -- and your 13 recollection now is that he came in late to the meeting, 14 would he have been privy to these kinds of discussions, 15 that is, some of the operational matters that were 16 discussed? 17 A: He certainly could have become aware 18 of them. 19 Q: Okay. And if he did become aware of 20 them, would that present any concern to you? 21 A: Given the -- the -- the generalities 22 of what we're dealing with here, it wouldn't have been a 23 major concern. 24 Q: Okay. Carry on then. 25 A: He was a -- and he was prepared and I
891 think speaking on behalf of the Ministry of Natural 2 Resources, the Park, to assist in any way possible. 3 Inspector Ron Fox was advised of the 4 situation by Inspector John Carson at 13:45 hours, 1:45. 5 Q: Okay. Were you present for that -- 6 for that advice, when that advice was given to Inspector 7 Ron Fox? 8 A: I -- I don't believe I was sitting 9 beside Inspector Carson when he made that call, no. 10 Q: All right. If you could continue 11 please? 12 A: There were three (3) issues that 13 seemed to be identified which was the Ministry of Natural 14 Resources policy, if the Natives were to move into 15 Ipperwash Park, and Inspector Carson was following up on 16 that. 17 Q: In terms of the MNR policy, if the 18 Natives move into the Ipperwash Park, would that be 19 consistent with the document that I had showed you 20 earlier, that is the briefing note for the 21 Interministerial Policy Forum, P-472? 22 A: I don't believe John would have been 23 thinking in terms of this document. I believe he would 24 have been looking with respect to, did the Ministry of 25 Natural Resources, specific to this issue, have -- had
901 they contemplated any policy or direction that they might 2 give to their people in the eventuality? 3 Q: All right. 4 A: The position of the Military versus 5 Kettle Point substantially known. Spokesperson for 6 militants being worked on by Staff Sergeant Charlie 7 Bouwman. And at eight o'clock that evening I left 8 Forest. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: If I could ask you to refer to Tab 6 13 of the book of documents in front of you. It is a 14 document dated August the 2nd, it bears Inquiry Document 15 Number 1007930 and it has been marked as Exhibit P-877 in 16 this. We're told that this is a memo to file by Mr. 17 Matheson. 18 Had you occasion, first of all, to see 19 this document before? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I don't recall seeing this document. 24 Q: What I'm interested in is that on the 25 second page of that document, Sunday, July 30th -- under
911 the notation, "Sunday, July 30th, 3:30 to 4:15 p.m.," if 2 I can just have you read that paragraph? 3 A: "Sunday, July 30th, 3:30 to 4:15 p.m. 4 To Forest OPP Detachment with 5 information on the campsite at 6 Ipperwash Provincial Park. Met with 7 Inspector John Carson, Superintendent 8 Tony Parkin, George Speck, and Captain 9 Ross from the Military Police. Captain 10 Ross advised that a Native person 11 remarked to him, on Ross' exiting of 12 CFB Ipperwash, the evening of July 13 29th, words to the effect, 'Tell your 14 buddies at the Park that they are our 15 next target.'" 16 Q: And do you recall that conversation 17 or that part of the conversation? 18 A: I remember something around the fact 19 that the Park had been mentioned as a potential issue. I 20 don't recall the exact words. 21 Q: All right. In terms of your 22 awareness of the attempts to open a dialogue with the -- 23 with the militants, as you've described it, at the front 24 gate, what could you tell us about that? 25 What was your knowledge of those attempts?
921 A: Well, I knew John Carson by his local 2 knowledge and he had -- they were trying to get people to 3 speak to the issue and somebody to speak on behalf of the 4 occupiers so they could get an understanding of what they 5 might want. And they were having some difficulty. 6 Clearly Bert Manning was speaking, to some 7 extent, but whether or not he was speaking on behalf of 8 the occupiers or not, I believe -- I don't believe that 9 was known. 10 So they were trying to determine, 11 essentially, who was the spokesperson. 12 Q: All right. If I can ask you then to 13 turn to the next page of your handwritten notes, Mr. 14 Parkin, which is page 15. And the notation at the top is 15 Monday, 31 July '95. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And if you could just go through some 18 of that with us please? 19 A: Again, I was at the Region Office, 20 did some administrative review. I received an issue 21 sheet with respect to Camp Ipperwash. Chief 22 Superintendent Boniface called. 23 I believe at that time she was in staff 24 development at General Headquarters; it might have been 25 called Human Resources at that time.
931 Q: Okay. 2 A: And excused from a meeting at 16:00 3 hours re. HR Inspector position, she will call tomorrow 4 for input. That -- I don't believe that had anything to 5 do with the Ipperwash issue. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. I was going 7 to ask you that? 8 A: That would have been a -- speaking to 9 the structure and who was going to get certain positions. 10 Q: It would appear that at 08:20 hours, 11 the update from Inspector Carson. This is getting back 12 to the Ipperwash matter though, is it not? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: All right. Just tell us about what 15 that notes. 16 A: Apparently there were some fliers 17 being circulated on Kettle Point advising of an emergency 18 council meeting to discuss the takeover of the military 19 base by the militants. Possibly of discussing if they 20 want to remove the occupiers. 21 John trying to get one of the fliers. 22 Trying to either attend the meeting or have informant 23 there. 24 Contingency plans re. more emergency 25 response teams. Chief Superintendent Coles called and
941 was updated prior to leaving on annual leave. 2 Superintendent Currie called, he was 3 briefed on Ipperwash and satisfied. He advised that 4 unless he called and requested I attend, there was no 5 need to attend management committee. 6 And this would be one of those occasions 7 where it appears Chief Coles was going on holidays and I 8 would have filled in for him. 9 Q: All right. Just let me ask you, with 10 respect to your notation of Chief Superintendent -- 11 pardon me, of Superintendent Currie, what was his role in 12 this -- in this matter in that he had to be briefed? 13 A: He must have been filling in for 14 somebody at that time in an acting capacity. Other than 15 that I'm not sure. I can't recall exactly what he was 16 doing at that time. 17 Q: Do you want to carry on at 14:30 18 hours? 19 A: "Received an update from Inspector 20 Carson. They'd identified Glenn George 21 as spokesperson and Les Jewel as an 22 alternate. Note that Jewel is American 23 well known to Customs, being checked by 24 FBI. 25 Militants are forming an Elders Council
951 and will meet with OPP tomorrow. The 2 emergency meeting on Kettle Point will 3 take place 14:30 hours on the 1st of 4 August and is open. 5 Militants will be invited. Presently 6 fifty (50) to seventy-five (75) Natives 7 on the beach erecting flagpole east of 8 Ipperwash Park." 9 Q: And the last entry of that -- of that 10 day in relation to Ipperwash is at 15:10 hours? 11 A: "15:10 Ron Fox advised and e-mailed 12 sent to Nancy Mansell and Inspector 13 Linton and Carson." 14 Q: And they would have been advised of 15 what you had just recorded here? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I don't known if they'd have been 19 advised in as much detail or -- but they would have got, 20 in a general sense, that information. 21 Q: All right. Do you know who updated 22 Ron Fox? I take it that would have been you? 23 A: I believe so, yes, sir. 24 Q: All right. And from your answer, I 25 take it that you don't have a specific recall that that
961 was, in fact, something that you would have undertaken? 2 A: No, but I did -- I do recall sending 3 e-mails to Ron Fox. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: As part of your overall duties as the 8 operational superintendent, I take it that you would have 9 been providing information up the chain of command, 10 ultimately to the OPP Commissioner's office? 11 A: I was and one can say that I was 12 probably doing that because of the transition stage we 13 were going through. 14 Normally, somebody would have been 15 assigned to take that role on, but in this case it seemed 16 for expediency, just as appropriate for me to do it while 17 I was dealing with it. 18 Q: Okay. Your various -- your e-mails 19 that you've described at 1510 hours to Nancy Mansell, we 20 understand that Ms. Mansell was in the Commissioner's 21 office. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Or perhaps more correctly, at
971 regional headquarters as -- 2 A: No, she wasn't at regional 3 headquarters. She had been in general headquarters. She 4 certainly would have worked in the area of the 5 Commissioner. 6 I'm not sure that she was in -- directly 7 in the Commissioner's office, but she would have been the 8 person that we would have sent them -- those -- that type 9 of information to, because she co-ordinated that 10 information for him and wherever it had to go. 11 Q: Okay. Perhaps I can ask you to turn 12 to Tab number 3 of the book of documents in front of you. 13 It is Inquiry Document 2000984, it's been marked as 14 Exhibit P-501. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And it's an e-mail from yourself, 19 sir, Parkin, Anthony, Region West to Mansell, Nancy, 20 copied to Ron Fox and to Dale Linton and it would appear 21 to be an update FYI on the Ipperwash situation dated July 22 31st of 1995 with high priority. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And that would be the -- an example 25 of the type of e-mail, in fact the e-mail that you would
981 have sent on that date as described in your notes? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And going back to your handwritten 7 notes, Mr. Parkin, at page 16 thereof. I'll take you 8 next to the entry at the 1st of August. It looks like at 9 23:00 hours Inspector Carson advises you that en route to 10 Ipperwash -- perhaps you -- I'll just let you explain 11 what it is that that -- at that notes. 12 A: Well, I'd gone off duty at five 13 o'clock. It would have been -- I was at home and John 14 Carson called me in the middle of the night, essentially, 15 to tell me -- I believe that's 23:00 hours, which would - 16 - eleven o'clock at night. 17 "Inspector Carson advises he's en route 18 to Ipperwash and there was some 19 natives in the Park and at 3:15 call 20 from Carson again advising of a double 21 fatality. OPP not involved. Single 22 vehicle MVA, motor vehicle accident. 23 But two (2) occupiers of the camp were 24 killed." 25 Q: Okay. And this would have been just
991 as a part of the general information that would have been 2 coming up to you for you to flow through the chain of 3 command? 4 A: Yeah, in the OPP there's normally 5 what's referred to as a duty officer. There's a duty 6 officer at general headquarters, but every district and 7 then as we're moving to regions, every region, had some 8 type of duty officer notification. 9 So that if any significant event took 10 place within the area with respect to policing that 11 number 1 there -- there's a -- there's a number of things 12 that are mandatory to notify the Duty Officer of, 13 homicides, serious sexual assaults, those types of 14 things, shootings. 15 But on top of that of course anything 16 that may be newsworthy, controversial, or have a 17 significant reason that -- that the investigating 18 officers feel that they should notify somebody it would 19 come up through the chain of command from the detachment 20 and then the Duty Officer would be notified and we would 21 make a decision with what we were going to do with it. 22 Q: All right. So you were notified at 23 23:00 hours and it would appear that you went on duty at 24 07:00 hours on the 1st of August? 25 A: Correct, sir.
1001 Q: It would appear that the first thing 2 that you did then is as you've indicated send that 3 information along the chain of command? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And that's what that denotes is it? 6 A: That's what that denotes, "notified 7 General Headquarters Duty Officer of the above events" 8 and at that time of the morning I -- I would have called 9 him so that it would have been circulated by the time 10 that Acting Deputy Commissioner Currie and First Nations 11 people arrived and for media relations people so that 12 they were again aware of it. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: That explains why I would have been 15 in discussion with Bill Currie also because right there 16 he was obviously Acting Deputy Commissioner at the time. 17 Q: Okay. And I -- and I was going to 18 ask you about that. 19 On the previous page at 11:40 hours 20 you've described him as Superintendent Currie if that is 21 one and the same person? 22 A: Yes, Superintendent Currie acting in 23 the capacity of Deputy Commissioner. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you for that. 25
1011 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And just further to that it would 4 appear that at 09:20 hours you would have again similarly 5 updated Nancy Mansell? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Okay. The next entry that would have 8 anything to do with this it seems is the one at 12:00 9 hours? 10 A: "Inspector Carson called. Advised 11 things quiet. We discussed his relief. 12 Inspector Linton to attend tomorrow for 13 briefing and take over as Incident 14 Commander over the long weekend. The 15 Number 1 District Emergency Response 16 Team was to be stood down and replaced. 17 Patrols will be two (2) man ERT but in 18 regular uniform during -- during the 19 day. At night there will be three (3) 20 two (2) man cars, one (1) in the Park, 21 two (2) on the perimeter. A 22 chronological log is being kept as to 23 the activity and OPP response." 24 Q: All right. Let me just stop you 25 there, Mr. Parkin, and if I can ask you to turn to Tab
1021 Number 4 there's an e-mail from yourself to Nancy 2 Mansell. It's dated August the 1st of 1995. It's 3 Inquiry Document 2000984 and marked as Exhibit P-563. 4 A: That's... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: That was Tab 4? 9 Q: Yes. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes, sir? 14 Q: And that would seem to be consistent 15 with what you've just -- just told us -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- and what your notes would seem to 18 indicate. 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: The only thing that I noticed might 21 be different and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, in the 22 second full sentence on the first paragraph: 23 " Some minor verbal warnings to Park 24 campers were overheard." 25 Now, you've testified that that's
1031 something that was within your -- within your knowledge. 2 You don't have that in your notes but it's 3 something that you do report a lot, yes? 4 A: Yes, sir, I -- I obviously do. 5 Q: And the other thing I wanted to ask 6 you about, in the third full paragraph: 7 "Inspector Carson will be enjoined by 8 Inspector Dale Linton from Chatham to 9 be briefed and take over as Incident 10 Commander for the long weekend." 11 That's something you've already told us 12 about, correct? 13 A: Correct, sir. 14 Q: And you would have known Inspector 15 Linton? 16 A: I knew Inspector Linton. He was a 17 commissioned officer, I was a commissioned officer. I'd 18 been on some courses with him. I'd never worked 19 extensively with him and of course when I came back from 20 Sault Ste. Marie to -- to London to pull together this 21 new region, that was probably where I got to know him the 22 most. 23 Q: All right. And did you have any 24 concerns about his competence with respect to incident 25 commander?
1041 A: No, sir. 2 Q: All right. If I can ask you next to 3 turn to Tab Number 7 of the Book of Documents in front of 4 you. That is Inquiry Document 100935 and marked as 5 Exhibit P-414. It's an e-mail from Ron Fox to yourself 6 dated August the 2nd.A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Updating again re. Camp Ipperwash. 8 A: Yes, correct. 9 Q: Part of what he's telling you is that 10 the Aboriginal Issues Committee was going to be meeting? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: "The MNR concerns being described by 13 Julie Jai as to a degree [pardon me] to 14 a greater degree than is probably 15 warranted." 16 What did you take that to mean, sir? 17 A: Well that was in Ron's view. 18 Q: And -- and I understand that and I 19 don't -- I don't ask you to get inside his head but how 20 did you under -- what did you take it to mean? 21 A: Ron's experience as a police officer 22 and his knowledge around information, he might not take 23 something at face value as readily as somebody else 24 might. 25 Q: Okay.
1051 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I note 2 the time is now after 1:00 and perhaps this might be a 3 good time to take the lunch break. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would be 5 a good time. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 8 lunch break now. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 10 adjourned until 2:20 p.m. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 1:06 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 2:28 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, 18 Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 afternoon. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, Mr. 22 Parkin. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: Mr. Parkin, when we left off we were
1061 looking at the e-mail from Ron Fox to yourself dated 2 August 2nd of '95 and that's at Tab 7 of the book of 3 documents in front of you? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And you'll see that in the sentence, 6 about halfway -- a little more than halfway through the 7 e-mail, it says: 8 "Julie tells me the MNR are concerned 9 about both issues." 10 And I asked you already about that. It 11 says: 12 "In my view [quote] to a greater degree 13 than is probably warranted." End 14 quote. 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And then he goes onto explain that as 18 a result of that, that the Aboriginal Issues Committee -- 19 we've come to know it here by various other names 20 including the Interministerial Committee. 21 Are you familiar with that name? Or the 22 Blockade Committee? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And that's one in the same, you'll 25 agree with that? That's one and the same?
1071 A: I believe -- I believe it to be so. 2 Q: Yes. So essentially you're informed 3 that that IMC meeting would occur on that -- on the 2nd 4 of August 1995. It gives you the time of that and then 5 he goes on to make the comment: 6 "I am a member and will attend to, 7 quote, "guide" the discussions in this 8 area. 9 And just before I move on with that, what 10 did you take that to mean in terms of his use of the word 11 'guide' in quotations as it is? 12 A: Probably along the lines of assisting 13 where possible. 14 Q: Okay. And I'm interested in the next 15 line that -- that he puts down and it reads: 16 "If you or John are available by 17 telephone at this time, it may be of 18 assistance should any points arise in 19 the discussion that may need further 20 explanation/interpretation." 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And can we take it that that was an 23 invitation by Inspector Fox to either yourself or the 24 Incident Commander that you would attend the 25 teleconference I'm assuming at the Interministerial
1081 Committee meeting? 2 A: I took it as that. 3 Q: All right. And would you have any 4 concerns about that? I note you didn't participate in 5 that meeting. Am I correct on that? 6 A: You're correct. I didn't 7 participate. We were busy and I didn't have any desire - 8 - particular desire to sit in on a teleconference call 9 with a group of individuals who I didn't know. I 10 wouldn't be aware of, perhaps, where the conversation 11 might go. 12 Q: All right. And as Inspector Fox was 13 there what capacity did you understand him to be in 14 attendance at this IMC meeting at? 15 A: Well, in his capacity as a advisor to 16 the Minister's office, he would keep the Minister's 17 office up to date on those policing issues which were 18 sensitive or high profile that they would need to be 19 somewhat informed about. 20 And with relation to the First Nations, I 21 knew he had a First Nations capacity, so he would also 22 provide them with the OPP's position on certain issues 23 respecting blockades or whatever. 24 So, I saw him as strictly as an advisor 25 and to assist them in any questions that they may have.
1091 Q: All right. And let's talk a little 2 more about what Inspector Fox's role was at the -- at the 3 Solicitor General's office. You knew he was at the 4 Solicitor General's office? 5 A: Yes, I did, sir. 6 Q: I think the title that perhaps was 7 described to us here was that he was liaison? A liaison 8 officer; is that -- is that how you understood it? 9 Maybe I should just ask: How did -- what 10 did you understand his role to be or his title to be? 11 A: I don't think I recall it being 12 referred to as liaison. I -- I thought he was in -- 13 actually the position of an advisor. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: But that may have been a term that I 16 applied to it. 17 Q: Okay. And if there were policing 18 issues in the field, it would be his -- his job to 19 provide those issues to the Minister or the Deputy 20 Minister? 21 A: That's correct. With his experience 22 he could perhaps provide some insight into the nuances of 23 policing. 24 Q: Okay. Did you understand him to be 25 an OPP officer --
1101 A: I knew him to be -- 2 Q: -- in that capacity? 3 A: -- I knew him to be an OPP officer in 4 that capacity. 5 Q: All right. And just so -- again, so 6 I'm clear because there has been some -- some confusion 7 perhaps about -- about whether or not he was an OPP 8 officer or not. There's no such confusion on your part? 9 A: No such confusion on my part, sir. 10 Q: At the end of July of 1995, Mr. 11 Parkin, you became aware of an allegation of a burial 12 ground within the boundaries of Ipperwash Provincial 13 Park? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And do you know where you would have 16 come to that knowledge? Where did you learn this? 17 A: Where -- where are we referring to 18 now? Are we still on this e-mail? 19 Q: I -- I'm just asking you generally. 20 A: Oh. 21 Q: First of all you acknowledge that at 22 the end of July you certainly became aware of this 23 allegation and I'm just wondering if you have an 24 independent recollection as to how you came to this 25 information?
1111 A: I would have been advised of that 2 information. Exactly who advised me right now I can't 3 recall. 4 Q: All right. Perhaps I can ask you 5 then to turn to your handwritten notes. I'm looking at 6 page 17 of that and we'll commence with the date 7 Wednesday, 02 August '95? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Are you there? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And it seems that your day started in 14 typical fashion; you're at the Regional Office in Admin? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And at 08:30 hours -- perhaps you can 17 just carry on from there and tell us what that indicates? 18 A: Yes. 19 "John Carson advises Staff Sergeant 20 Bouwman met with Glenn George. Agreed 21 to OPP patrols for public safety 22 including ride checks. Agreed to 23 barricade Matheson Drive after dark to 24 prevent traffic problems; the gate to 25 be opened during the day. They still
1121 feel the roadway is theirs. Mayor of 2 Bosanquet notified to research -- to 3 research. Still -- still feel the Park 4 is theirs. Old burial ground. George 5 will talk to militants to stop hassling 6 campers." 7 Q: Okay. I just wanted to draw your 8 attention to that notation of the old burial ground. 9 A: Yes, sir? 10 Q: And can you recall for us today, sir, 11 whether or not that notation of old burial ground is in 12 reference to the Park or is that in reference to some 13 other area? 14 A: That would be in reference to the 15 Park, to Ipperwash Park. 16 Q: And does that assist you in terms of 17 recalling when you might have first learned about -- 18 about the -- 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: -- the allegation of a burial ground? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: All right. Did you want to just 23 continue from -- from there please, Mr. Parkin? 24 A: "Kettle Point meeting not much to 25 pass BCR [that would be a Band Council
1131 Resolution] telling outsiders to get 2 off land. Americans, Saugeen, Oneidas, 3 et cetera. 4 And George talked of a press release 5 supporting police patrols re. public 6 safety." 7 I updated Nancy Mansell, an e-mail sent. 8 I -- then I just reviewed some mail and various memos, 9 administrative-type activity and finished work that day 10 at 16:30. 11 Q: Okay. Perhaps I can ask you to turn 12 to Tab Number 5 of the book of documents in front of you. 13 And at that tab there is a Minister of the Solicitor 14 General Issue Note. It's dated August 2nd, 1995, at 7:30 15 a.m. It's marked as P-563. 16 A: Yes, sir? 17 Q: Do you recall ever -- ever seeing 18 this document? 19 A: I probably at some point saw this 20 document. 21 Q: And you wouldn't have any -- 22 A: I don't recall specifically. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Information I may have provided may 25 have contributed to it.
1141 Q: And you've had a chance to -- to scan 2 that document I take it? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And that is consistent with what 5 you've just testified to in terms of your recall and your 6 notes of that date? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Sorry, just hold on one (1) sec. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And if we can look at Tab number 8, 19 it's an e-mail from yourself. 20 A: From myself, yes, sir. 21 Q: To Nancy Mansell. It's dated August 22 2nd, at 09:42 hours. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And you'll note that the first 25 sentence talks about the meeting that was finally
1151 arranged as between the OPP and Glenn George, who was 2 identified there as the spokesperson for the occupiers of 3 the military base. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And you'll see, at the end of the 6 second paragraph, the last -- the last sentence at the 7 end of the second paragraph: 8 "They now allege there's a burial 9 ground within the Park boundaries." 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. And that, essentially, is 12 a confirmation of what you've just told us? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I'm just trying to see whether that 18 is a -- an exhibit. Can I ask that that be made the next 19 exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1055, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1055: Document Number 3000435. 23 09:42 hours. E-mail from 24 Tony Parkin to Nancy Mansell 25 re. Update Camp Ipperwash,
1161 August 02/'95. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: If I could take you back to your 5 notes again, please, Mr. Parkin. If we can go to page 6 18, that deals with August the 3rd, 1995. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: Okay. And can you just take us 12 through that, Mr. Parkin? 13 A: Again, I report to region. I have 14 discussions and phone calls with Inspector Dale Linton, 15 Nancy Mansell, reference Ipperwash. Notes were recorded 16 on e-mail and included. Lunch. Came back to the office. 17 Mail memos. Update Commissioner's office re. strategy in 18 worst case scenario for Ipperwash. 19 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you there. 20 And I wonder if you can tell us what -- what was the 21 worst case scenario, what was it that the Commissioner's 22 office would have been briefed on, or updated on? 23 A: I would believe that my terminology 24 there, I would be just referring to the fact that, in 25 fact, there was an occupation of the Park.
1171 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: At Tab 10 there is an e-mail from 4 yourself to Nancy Mansell, copied to -- pardon me, to Mr. 5 Fox, to John Carson, to Dale Linton and that is all dated 6 August 3rd of 1995. 7 It's Inquiry document 1000923 and it's 8 marked as Exhibit P-416. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: That was Tab 10? 13 Q: Tab 10, yes. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And you've recorded, it looks like, 19 that it was fairly quiet over the night before. You then 20 report the criminal activity of a confrontation, being a 21 bus ramming the barricade in a military jeep. 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And it identifies an individual as 24 the operator of that, and I understand that ultimately a 25 warrant for that individual was obtained?
1181 A: That's correct, sir. 2 Q: Okay. It would appear that there was 3 some kind of co-operation as between the occupiers and 4 the military, at least insofar as operating the 5 infrastructure? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Something with respect to signage as 8 well, and unexploded ordinance? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. And lastly, it would 11 appear that there was a common agreement that an 12 environmental assessment ought to be done, and you report 13 this up? 14 A: Those discussions took place. I 15 wasn't involved in them, but I was aware of them. 16 Q: Okay. And you would have received 17 this information through your normal reporting processes? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And then your job is, I think you 20 pointed out earlier, was to then report that up the chain 21 of command? 22 A: That's true. Some of this 23 information, that I took it upon myself to report up, may 24 not necessarily have come within my job specs, if you 25 will.
1191 Q: All right. And I was going to ask 2 you about that. Do you know where this information came 3 from, any part of the information that we've just had a 4 brief look at? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Well, I spoke to Dale Linton that day 9 and I indicate that I -- my notes I recorded on an e- 10 mail, so that's -- I would say that's where that 11 information came from. 12 Q: And I take it you wouldn't have any 13 idea as to where he would have got that information? I - 14 - I get from your answer that you're not entirely certain 15 that that came from Inspector Linton, although your notes 16 seemed to indicate such -- 17 A: Well, my notes would seem to me to 18 confirm that, in fact, that's where I would have got that 19 information because I make reference to the fact that I 20 recorded the discussion, basically, on an e-mail. Where 21 he might have got it; I would think he would have got it 22 probably from Captain Doug Smith because I knew he did -- 23 had communication with him. 24 Q: All right. If I can ask you to turn 25 to Tab Number 11. That is an e-mail from yourself to
1201 Nancy Mansell, Ron Fox, John Carson, Dale Linton and it's 2 dated August 3rd of 1995 now at 14:04 hours? It's marked 3 as Exhibit P-417. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And it describes a press conference 6 that was held on that day. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: It goes on to describe Ovide 9 Mercredi's offer to mediate. 10 A: Yes, sir? 11 Q: As I'd asked you earlier, with 12 respect to the information that you had provided in your 13 previous e-mail, do you know where this information would 14 have came from? 15 Perhaps is that the same source or -- or 16 can you tell us? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: I would believe so. 21 Q: It would appear that you're also 22 reporting that there was now some negotiations or at 23 least a desire to negotiate at least one (1) of the 24 issues that we know to be a land issue that underpinned 25 some of this -- this incident.
1211 And you're reporting that it would appear 2 that things are slowly moving towards a peaceful 3 resolution, although not all of the occupiers listen or 4 take direction from the people speaking for the group. 5 A: Clearly, that was information that 6 was coming to me that did seem to be that there was some 7 discussion taking place and that there was an offer -- 8 offer by Chief Mercredi to assist. 9 Q: All right. And the last entry on 10 that e-mail is your reference to the occupiers seizing 11 videotape of a -- of a sacred fire? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: Which was, I take it, in relation to 14 the -- as you report there, the two (2) people killed in 15 the car accident? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: Yes. And no one from OPP was 18 involved, right? No consequences, I think? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Well, it appears that one (1) of our 23 members was called to assist. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Global turned over the video and one
1221 (1) of our members was called to assist. 2 Q: Thank you for correcting that. All 3 right. But at the end of the day nothing become of it. 4 There was no desire on the part of the person from whom 5 the tape was seized to do anything about it? 6 A: No, they acquiesced. 7 Q: Can I ask you nextly to turn to the 8 document at Tab Number 12. And that is a further -- 9 pardon me, just before we move on, perhaps I should have 10 that made as the next -- I'm sorry that is already an 11 exhibit. I'm sorry. 12 If we can look at the document at Tab 12, 13 it's an e-mail from yourself again to Nancy Mansell, 14 copied to Ron Fox, John Carson and Dale Linton dated 15 August the 4th at 12:01 hours. 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And it refers to a report from the 18 Military from Captain Smith, that the Prime Minister, 19 that Indian Affairs, and the Military would be meeting on 20 the 9th of August and that on the 10th of August the 21 Military would attempt to meet with Chief Bressette. 22 Do you see that? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And you go on to describe an attempt 25 by Chief Bressette and the Band Council to serve a letter
1231 on the occupiers at the base and Rose Manning's refusal 2 to accept that. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Do you know where you got this 5 information from, Mr. Parkin? 6 A: Again I would have got it from 7 somebody who was in command or working in the area. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Perhaps we can take a look at your -- 12 at your notes again. I'm sorry to keep switching you 13 back and forth but it seems... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: See on August -- August the 4th on 18 page 18? Friday, 4th of August '95 at 09:30 hours? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And at you're Region -- Region 21 Office. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Perhaps you can just continue from 24 there? 25 A: "I received an update from Inspector
1241 Linton, put on e-mail and forwarded it 2 to Nancy Mansell." 3 Q: All right. And does that help you in 4 recalling that you were informed by Inspector Linton on 5 that -- 6 A: Yes, it would be -- 7 Q: -- on those -- 8 A: -- Dale Linton. 9 Q: Okay. The last entry on that e-mail 10 of August the 4th, it says: 11 "Contingency plans remain in place for 12 the long weekend." 13 Can you tell us what the contingency plans 14 were over the long weekend? What were they at that 15 point? 16 A: Well, I -- I believe, I'm just 17 referring to the fact that we had Incident Commanders 18 available. There was a plan should something take place 19 at the -- at the Park. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: All right. Can I have that marked as 24 the next exhibit please? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1056, Your Honour.
1251 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1056: Document Number 1000921. 4 12:01 hours. E-mail from 5 Tony Parkin to Nancy Mansell 6 re. Ipperwash Update, August 7 04/'95. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: We've already talked a little bit, 11 Mr. Parkin, about the role that Inspector Fox played. 12 Can you tell us the kind of information that you would 13 have received and conveyed throughout this situation as 14 to the nature and type of that; for example, would that 15 be operational information? 16 Or how might you characterize the 17 information that you would have sent along, that you 18 would have received and sent along? 19 A: I didn't have many phone 20 conversations with Inspector Fox. I may have -- I 21 certainly may have had a few. Whether I talked about 22 operational issues with him, in the broad sense, I may 23 have with the fact that along the lines of things that he 24 probably would have presumed we were doing as far as 25 planning and contingencies.
1261 But as far as getting into specific 2 logistics, no, we didn't get into a lot of that. There 3 was no need. That wasn't information that really served 4 too many purpose. 5 Q: All right. Did you ever speak to any 6 -- any officer working as a liaison officer in the 7 Solicitor General's office regarding policing matters? 8 A: Well, I spoke to Ron about policing 9 matters, but he would be the only one. 10 Q: And do you have a view on incident 11 command speaking directly to a Ministry liaison officer 12 as Mr. Fox was? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: In his capacity, he needed certain 17 information to do his job. As long as he wasn't passing 18 on some operational information that he may have 19 received, there was no problem with that. 20 We worked in the same organization. He 21 needed to know what was going on to put him in ability to 22 advise those that he had to with -- with some informed 23 knowledge. 24 But because of his experience and it made 25 it an easier discussion than if you were dealing with
1271 somebody who didn't have an acute awareness of 2 operational policing. 3 Q: All right. If we look at Tab 9, 4 there's an e-mail from Ron Fox to Elaine Todres an N. 5 McKerrell; that's dated August 2nd of 1995 and it's been 6 marked as Exhibit P-502. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You see where Mr. Fox indicates that 9 he -- I have been in continual contact with Chief 10 Superintendent Chris Coles, OPP West Region commander; 11 Superintendent Tony Parkin, OPP West Region operations 12 officer and Inspector John Carson, the assigned OPP 13 incident commander at CFB Ipperwash, right? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And so the kind of information that 16 you're telling us you would have passed on to him would 17 be so that he could properly fulfil his obligations to 18 inform the Ministry on things they needed to know; is 19 that -- 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: Okay. And in so doing, would you 22 provide Mr. Fox just the bare minimum of information or 23 can you tell us the kinds of information that -- perhaps 24 you've already answered this in part. 25 A: Well, I think --
1281 Q: The -- 2 A: Sorry? 3 Q: Again, just the kind of information 4 that you would have passed along. 5 A: When inspector Fox talks about being 6 in continual communication with myself and Chief Coles, I 7 can't speak to what he means by "continual contact". I 8 know he did have a number of direct conversations with 9 Inspector Carson and maybe more than he had with me. 10 But if he called me, he may have been 11 looking for specific information that I could provide him 12 or get for him so that therefore he could then take that 13 back to who was ever asking him for some information. 14 And I may have, in fact, told him in some 15 areas of operations. But again, knowing him and my 16 confidence in his abilities, that he would have vetted 17 what he needed to before he would have passed that 18 information up. 19 Q: All right. So not withstanding the 20 kind of -- or nature of information you passed along, you 21 would rely on his discretion. 22 Is that -- is that putting that fairly? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Okay. 25
1291 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You knew that part of the planning in 4 place is that the OPP would only take action with respect 5 to the Park after an injunction had been sought -- pardon 6 me, with respect to the -- with respect to the Military 7 Base after DND applied for an injunction. 8 A: That had been the direction given 9 prior to my arrival in the London area. 10 Q: All right. And to your knowledge, 11 that was never followed up on? 12 You may have already commented on that. 13 A: It wasn't followed up to my 14 knowledge. 15 Q: All right. But given you knew about 16 the possibility now of an occupation of the Provincial 17 Park, do you know whether there was any similar kinds of 18 planning -- plans in place as to when the OPP might take 19 action relative to Park. 20 A: Yes, there were discussions with 21 respect to an injunction should that take place within 22 the Provincial Park; that would be one (1) of the -- one 23 (1) of the things that the OPP would want the Ministry of 24 Natural Resources to -- to obtain. 25 Q: On the 11th of August, Mr. Parkin,
1301 you had attended a meeting with MPP Marcel Beaubien along 2 with other OPP officers. 3 Do -- do you recall that? 4 A: Yes, sir, I do. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And what can you tell us about that 9 meeting, sir? 10 A: On the 11th of August I met with 11 Staff Sergeant Lacroix, Inspector Carson, and Linton, I 12 believe at Petrolia Detachment, and then we went to a 13 meeting with the MPP Marcel Beaubien. 14 Now, my recollection how that started, I 15 believe I received a phone call from Staff Sergeant 16 Lacroix advising me that they were going to be meeting 17 with Mr. Beaubien. And I can't recall whether I was 18 invited to the meeting or I chose to go on -- on -- 19 basically included myself, to have an opportunity to meet 20 Mr. Beaubien. 21 And there -- I knew that there had been 22 some policing complaints with respect to areas of the -- 23 of his constituency which he was concerned about, so I 24 accompanied them to the meeting at Marcel's office which 25 was located directly across from the OPP Detachment.
1311 Q: All right. Do you -- do you recall 2 whether or not, during the course of this meeting with 3 MPP Marcel Beaubien, that the relationship between peace 4 -- police and government, whether that was a topic of 5 discussion? 6 A: I don't recall whether it was a topic 7 of discussion in that context. Clearly, he was -- as I 8 said this was the first time I had -- I had met him so we 9 did some self-introductions, but it became quite clear 10 that he was very concerned about policing, in general, 11 with respect to the Park, the cottage owners. He was 12 apparently under a lot of pressure from his constituents 13 who were very frustrated and wanted something done. 14 I think it would be fair to say that there 15 was a lack of satisfaction from some of the residents in 16 the area with the police enforcement or what the police 17 were being seen to do. That concerned him. 18 There was an issue over the West Ipperwash 19 Beach area which had been a civil dispute that had been, 20 as I understood it, I didn't know very much about the 21 whole issue when I was there, but it had been very costly 22 and time consuming and, again, another very frustrating 23 issue between those residents and the First Nations. 24 So he was dealing with all these issues 25 and it was clear he was -- he was frustrated. I think he
1321 felt that he was out there trying to do all this on his 2 own and he wasn't getting any assistance from his own 3 government. 4 Q: Okay. Did you get the sense that he 5 was -- aside from being frustrated was he critical of -- 6 of the policing efforts that had been undertaken, up to 7 that point? 8 A: I can't recall him using those 9 specific words but, clearly, by his demeanour and his 10 concerns, I -- I would take it that he wasn't enthused 11 with what the police were doing. 12 Wade, who was the detachment commander of 13 the area, of cour -- well, not specifically of the area 14 of West Ipperwash Beach, but in the general area, I think 15 were trying to give him a comfort level that the police 16 were doing what they were required to do. And it was 17 just a matter of trying to work through these issues with 18 him. 19 Q: And did you get a sense from -- from 20 MPP Beaubien as to what it was that he wanted you to do 21 insofar as policing that area? 22 A: Well, there was great animosity for 23 what they saw as unequal policing. That's, you know, the 24 only way that I can put it, that they felt that they were 25 being victimized and they didn't like the situation at
1331 the military base. So they were frustrated. 2 And I think because the -- the community 3 was frustrated, he was upset. 4 Q: All right. Do you want to just 5 continue in terms of your notes at 10:00 hours that -- 6 that speaks to the meeting with MPP Beaubien? 7 A: He understood the OPP position 8 relating to Ipperwash base. And I think the major 9 concern there was the fact that this was what was 10 referred to as a no-go zone and that criminal activity 11 was allowed to take place and the police did nothing 12 about it. 13 "Concerned about the Park and the 14 cottage owners. Very frustrated. May 15 do something." 16 Q: Now, what does that refer to? "May do 17 something." 18 A: I can't recall specifically if that - 19 - what that referred to. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I think it was a general comment, 22 just may do something. 23 "He will be... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1341 A: ...pushing. He will be pushing 2 Runciman and Harnick and MNR for 3 direction and a position. I have no 4 complaints about policing or OPP." 5 But I believe that would be a reference to 6 any specific complaints. 7 Q: So other than the general complaints 8 that you've already told us about, there was nothing 9 specific that you made note of? 10 A: No. He didn't -- he didn't leave me 11 with -- other than, yes, the general concerns about the 12 base and the Military Base and the frustration, he didn't 13 say, and I want to complain about this particular issue. 14 Q: If I can next ask you to turn to Tab 15 Number 13, the document at Tab 13. It's Inquiry Document 16 1012239, it's marked as Exhibit P-418. 17 And the cover sheet is from Parks Ontario 18 to Peter Sturdy from Jim Jackson. You'll see the 19 contents of that is a two (2) page letter dated August 20 14th of 1995 under the hand of Marcel Beaubien, MPP. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And it refers to a consensus that was 23 reached between Mr. Beaubien and the OPP present at an 24 August 11th meeting including yourself. 25 Do you see that?
1351 I'm looking at the last full paragraph at 2 the bottom of the page. Well, let me just start at the 3 top. On August 11th he goes: 4 "I met with the following individuals 5 from the Ontario Provincial Police." 6 And your namer appears at the top of that 7 list of four (4). 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: "They were there to discuss issues at 10 the Park and West Ipperwash Property 11 Owners' Association and the First 12 Nation of Kettle and Stony Point." 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Okay. It goes on to indicate that: 15 "We are not concerned with the takeover 16 of Camp Ipperwash Army Camp as this is 17 a Federal matter." 18 And I think that's what you've just 19 explained to us as a no-go zone? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: All right. And if you just skip the 22 next paragraph and drop down to the next one it reads: 23 "The representatives from both OPP and 24 myself have reached the following 25 consensus."
1361 I guess what I wanted to ask you about 2 that, and -- do you recall, first of all, reaching a 3 consensus as part of this meeting of the 11th of August? 4 A: No I don't recall any formalized 5 structure to our meeting. 6 Q: As far as the four (4) points that 7 are then noted in that letter, number 1: 8 "As the Ipperwash campground is 9 provincially owned, we should be in 10 position to legally uphold this 11 property." 12 A: Certainly there was discussion around 13 documentation, ownership, with respect to the Province. 14 Q: All right. And was it the knowledge 15 of this group that, in fact, the campground was 16 provincially owned and that the issues of title were -- 17 were not in controversy? 18 A: Well, they certainly believed that, 19 yes. 20 Q: If you go to the second page, number 21 2: 22 "Enforcement is only a short term 23 solution." 24 A: I don't recall that terminology. 25 Q: Number 3:
1371 "The Ministries involved have to give 2 the OPP clear guidelines for law 3 enforcement." 4 Is that something that, as OPP, you would 5 be in consensus with? 6 A: These are Mr. Beaubien's words. I 7 had no input into this letter. I wasn't aware of it 8 being drafted. I did see it sometime afterwards. 9 The discussions around enforcement is only 10 a short term solution, I can't disagree with that term. 11 I mean, I think with -- with the issue, the resolution 12 was more than enforcement. 13 But I don't know what he is referring to 14 with respect to Ministries involved have to give the OPP 15 clear guidelines for law enforcement. 16 Q: All right. Is that a statement that 17 you would -- you would agree with or not agree with or -- 18 A: No, we wouldn't have needed any 19 direction with respect to law enforcement. 20 Q: All right. And the last point on 21 that: 22 "The long-term solution is a negotiated 23 settlement." 24 A: I think that that would be a fair 25 point.
1381 Q: And I appreciate, sir, that you 2 weren't the author of this and you didn't have any input 3 in it and indeed nor were you copied with it, by every 4 indication. 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. But I simply wanted to 7 afford you an opportunity to -- to speak to it as it 8 would appear at least in -- in the letter writer's view, 9 that you were part of a consensus on those -- at least on 10 those four (4) points. 11 A: That appears to be his impression, 12 yes, sir. 13 Q: All right. Did you attend this 14 meeting, Mr. Parkin, with a view to seeking or receiving 15 direction from Mr. Beaubien or any government official as 16 -- as part of your obligations or the obligations of the 17 Ontario Provincial Police? 18 A: No, sir. In fact, I took it as an 19 opportunity to meet the local MPP, given the 20 circumstances and the situation what was taking place, 21 and his concerns that he had made well known to Wade and 22 Inspector Carson, in my position -- it also gave me an 23 opportunity to become more familiar with the issue we 24 were dealing with. 25 And I think that may have been the first
1391 time I had any in-depth discussion around the West 2 Ipperwash beach situation. 3 Q: At Tab 14, there's a Ministry of 4 Solicitor General issue note. It's dated August 8th of 5 '95 at 10:33 in the a.m. It's marked as P-590; it's 6 Inquiry Document 2000982. 7 A: That's about all I can read on my 8 copy, sir. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: It's just -- it's just a blurred 11 photocopy, so if I can... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Oh, pardon me. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Sorry, excuse me. Sorry, if you 20 could just bear with me, Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: You may not have this in front of you
1401 but we have, as part of that document there is an e-mail 2 from yourself to Nancy Mansell. Do you have that as part 3 of your -- as part of your package, Mr. Parkin, under 4 that same tab number? 5 A: Under Tab 14? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I have two (2) pages. One (1) is the 8 Native Occupation Camp Ipperwash and it's an MSGS issue 9 note. 10 Q: Perhaps I can put this document in 11 front of you. It's up on the screen right now but I'll 12 have a copy placed in front of you. 13 A: Thank you. 14 Q: That's your e-mail of August 14th 15 date, marked as P-591. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And the only thing of note there is 20 the second paragraph that I wanted to take your attention 21 to where you indicate that on Friday, August 11th, you 22 met with local MPP Marcel Beaubien. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: In that e-mail you indicate that he 25 was satisfied with the actions of the OPP and what they
1411 were doing and then you go on to express what his 2 concerns were. 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Okay. I apologize for that 5 confusion. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Just going back to this -- to this 10 meeting do you recall whether -- one (1) of the concerns 11 that was indicated to you by -- by Mr. Beaubien was the 12 fact that the OPP did not go onto the Army Base, correct? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And the direction that was being 15 sought from the Ministries, do you recall whether or not 16 that direction was in reference to having the OPP go onto 17 the Army Base? 18 A: I wasn't seeking any direction from 19 any Ministry with respect to policing of the Base. 20 Whether Mr. Beaubien was looking himself to get that 21 direction I -- I don't know. 22 Q: All right. Sorry. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1421 Q: And if you'll look at the last line 2 of -- of your e-mail -- pardon me, second last line, the 3 last line of the last full paragraph he was going to be 4 talking with the Solicitor General and Attorney General 5 as well as MNR officials because he wants them to 6 understand the seriousness of the situation and provide 7 him with some direction. 8 And that's consistent with your 9 understanding? 10 A: That was my take on the meeting, yes, 11 sir. 12 Q: All right. Thank you for that. As 13 part of this where he indicates that he would be talking 14 to the Solicitor General did you know whether or not he 15 was going to be speaking personally to the Solicitor 16 General? Is that the indication that you received? 17 A: I didn't have any knowledge as to how 18 he would handle those communications. 19 Q: And he didn't tell you? 20 A: All he -- the way I've related it, 21 basically, in my notes, basically he was going to -- to 22 do that. How he did it, he didn't specify. 23 Q: And if we turn to page 23 of your 24 notes at 15:45 hours, you have a discussion with 25 Inspector Linton.
1431 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Perhaps you can just tell us what 3 that entry says and what it relates to. 4 A: "I spoke with Dale Linton. 5 Apparently Glenn George has again said 6 that after Labour Day the Park will be 7 theirs. 8 George Speck obtained this information 9 tonight. There's a meeting on Walpole 10 Island for the Police Authority 11 Committee to discuss issues re. 12 policing." 13 That's another issue. 14 Q: All right. That doesn't have to do 15 with this? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: What about the next entry then? Ed - 18 - does that say Ed Isaac? 19 A: "Ed Isaac is a warrior from Walpole, 20 has shown up on Ipperwash Camp to meet 21 with Glenn George." 22 Q: That would be in relation to 23 Ipperwash though? 24 A: There would be a connection there, 25 yes, sir.
1441 Q: And do you know what the relevance of 2 that entry is? 3 A: That would have been more information 4 that I had received from George Speck. 5 Q: Can I just take you back to the page 6 previously, Mr. Parkin, at the entry at 11:10 hours? You 7 have Deputy Commissioner Boose called. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Do you see that? Can you just carry 10 on with that -- with that entry please? 11 A: "Deputy Commissioner Boose called. 12 Commissioner concerned that we say we 13 will enforce the law but are we doing 14 that? Related bus ramming incident. 15 I advised that investigation was done. 16 Charges laid and suspect in custody. 17 Also updated him re. meeting with 18 Marcel Beaubien and his concerns over 19 frustration of cottage owners. 20 Advised everything on e-mail and Nancy 21 Mansell has same." 22 Q: All right. Do you know what prompted 23 this call from Deputy Commissioner Boose? 24 A: I don't specifically know what 25 prompted it.
1451 Q: All right. And did you feel that, 2 given this phone call from your Deputy Commissioner, that 3 you were under some incentive or pressure to handle 4 things other than how you had been handling things up to 5 that point? 6 A: No, not at all. My assumption simply 7 was they needed some information and they wanted some 8 assurance. And, again, in my position I'm accountable to 9 them and if there's an explanation required as to what's 10 going on within the region, then I should be able to have 11 the answers. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. And I had 13 asked you already about the entry at 15:45 where you're 14 advised that Glenn George has apparently said that after 15 Labour Day the Park will be theirs. 16 And that Ed Isaac, warrior from Walpole, 17 has been showing up at the Ipperwash Camp. You've 18 already identified that as information that you would 19 have received in the -- in the normal course. 20 Is that -- is that right? 21 A: Yes, sir. In a given phone call I 22 may receive a lot of information, that's just what I've 23 captured. 24 Q: And what was done with that 25 information, as far as you know?
1461 A: With respect to the information about 2 -- again, about the -- the Labour Day time frame for the 3 Park, I'm sure that that would have been -- at some point 4 in time I would have relayed that information. I would 5 certainly have made the Chief aware of it. 6 And only for the fact that it was kind of 7 starting to reinforce what seemed to be becoming somewhat 8 common knowledge. 9 Q: And that is the... 10 A: That there was a potential for an 11 occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park sometime 12 around the Labour Day weekend. 13 Q: All right. Thank you. And if we can 14 go back to your notes, at page 24 under August 17th. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And there's one entry at 09:30 hours 19 that I suggest is perhaps relative to the Ipperwash 20 matter. 21 Can you tell us what that means, at all? 22 A: "Linton advised..." 23 That's the one you're referring to? 24 Q: Yes. 25 Q: "Linton advised that Miles Bressette
1471 called and advised that last night 2 Kettle Point had a community meeting 3 and government." 4 All I can say with respect to that is that 5 apparently there was a meeting on Kettle Point involving 6 the community. I don't know what I meant by "and 7 government." 8 Q: Okay. Did you have any discussions 9 with Miles Bressette about the planning of police 10 operations around Ipperwash, prior to the 7th? 11 A: Ipperwash Provincial Park? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: Do you know whether or not Inspector 15 Carson had any such conversations with Miles Bressette? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Had Inspector Car -- Parkin ever 18 advised you that he had any such discussions with Miles 19 Bressette? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He is 21 Parkin. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He is 24 Parkin. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Oh, pardon me.
1481 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 3 Q: With Inspector Linton? 4 A: Had Inspector Linton had discussions 5 with Miles Bressette? 6 Q: Yeah, had you ever -- had he ever 7 suggested or told you that he had such discussions with 8 Miles Bressette? 9 A: Not that I recall, sir. 10 Q: Is that something that you think 11 might have or should have occurred? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: There certainly would be nothing 16 wrong with it. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: With respect to the legal title of 21 the Park, I understand that at some point in time you had 22 occasion to seek that kind of documentation from the 23 Ministry of Natural Resources. 24 A: Yes, I can't recall exactly when, I - 25 - but I know through conversations that I had with Les
1491 Kobayashi, who was the superintendent of the Park at that 2 time, given that we were dealing with this potential, not 3 knowing whether or not it would, in fact, take place, the 4 occupation I'm referring to, but I felt -- and I was only 5 offering a suggestion to him -- I mean it -- we -- at 6 this point in time, I mean, this was a Ministry issue and 7 clearly the police had no desire to become involved. 8 But I suggested to him that they may want 9 to do their research to totally satisfy themselves with 10 respect to the ownership of the Park and whether or not 11 there was anything to this information with regards to a 12 burial ground. 13 I think he -- they would have done that on 14 their own, but I know I had the discussions with Les. 15 Q: All right. Now, you mentioned the 16 burial ground was part of the suggestion when they do 17 their homework or their research, was it also to research 18 the -- the allegation that you were aware of, of a burial 19 park (sic) within the Park? 20 A: Well, I don't believe there -- 21 Q: Burial ground, rather. 22 A: It wasn't just I that was aware of 23 that information; Les, I'm sure, was aware of the 24 information, we discussed it. So I simply suggested 25 that it would be in their interests and ours, from the
1501 perspective that if we did get involved it would be nice 2 to have that document -- documentation on file. 3 Q: And do you recall a discussion about 4 the implications, what the implications might be if, in 5 fact, there was a burial ground within the Park? 6 Do you recall that being part of -- part 7 of the discussion? 8 A: I don't specifically recall that, 9 sir. 10 Q: All right. At the end of August 1995 11 you had attended a meeting at District Headquarters to -- 12 to now discuss the development of a formal operational 13 plan or a more formal operational plan, perhaps, if I can 14 put it that way, dealing specifically with the possible-- 15 A: We -- we did -- we did do that, sir, 16 I just -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- I'm not sure where I am with you 19 on the pages. 20 Q: If you can turn to page 25 at August 21 31st, the entry at 08... 22 A: Yes, sir? 23 Q: 08:00 hours. Okay? 24 A: Yes, at 08:00 hours at district 25 headquarters we had discussion with Inspector Carson
1511 regarding a contingency plan for Ipperwash and -- and 2 that was referencing the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 3 Q: Specifically, about possibility of -- 4 of an occupation of that -- 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: -- Park? And we understand that 7 Chief Coles had some role in terms of assigning tasks? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Well, I believe Inspector Carson was 12 given the role because of the fact that he had been the 13 Incident Commander through this protracted chain of 14 events, going back almost to -- to '93. There was no one 15 that was more knowledgeable, both of the local area, a 16 lot of the -- the people, the First Nations residents, 17 the -- the geography of the area, the history. 18 He was the perfect fit, if you will, to 19 continue in that role and he was assigned to pull 20 together a contingency plan. 21 Now, he wouldn't have done that on his 22 own, of course, but that would have been left to him as 23 to who he used to assist him in pulling that together. 24 Q: All right. And he -- he was already 25 designated Incident Commander earlier?
1521 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And his task now was to begin to put 3 the operational aspect of that contingency plan together? 4 A: That's right. He was -- he was 5 caught in a -- in a rather unenviable position that this 6 -- the -- the continuity of all -- of this issue was 7 resting with him. 8 Q: All right. Let's -- I want to ask 9 you if you can talk a little bit about your role then as 10 -- as an incident commander's immediate supervisor, which 11 I understand you were. 12 A: I was his immediate supervisor, yes. 13 Q: All right. And with respect to the 14 Incident Commander's duties what is -- what is your role 15 then, as the immediate supervisor? 16 A: Once an inspector, in this case, is 17 designated as the Incident Commander at a situation, then 18 they have -- they are in charge, they have full decision 19 making authority as to what operational activity they are 20 going to do. 21 We're all accountable for our actions but 22 we put them in -- in place because we have confidence in 23 them. They have proven the skills and abilities, they've 24 had the training, the experience to deal with these types 25 of situations, so when they're out there we rely on them
1531 and their expertise and their decision making. 2 If they choose -- if an incident commander 3 would choose to call me for advice there's certainly 4 nothing wrong with that, but that wouldn't be a normal 5 event. Usually, in incidents, things are happening so 6 quickly, there's so much information coming into the 7 Command Post, that another call to another person would 8 only complicate the matter. 9 So it -- it's a very tough position to be 10 in as an incident commander; you have to rely on your 11 instincts and the information that you're provided and 12 make the best decisions that you can. After you make 13 those decisions and we -- we live with the outcomes, but 14 it's not for me as a superintendent sitting in my house 15 to try and second-guess decisions that are being made at 16 the frontline, because I'm not there. 17 Q: I appreciate you said that an 18 Incident Commander may call the immediate Supervisor for 19 advice which I -- I think you said it would probably be 20 unusual. 21 What about call -- 22 A: Unusual but not unheard of. 23 Q: All right. What about calling for 24 approval? 25 A: At the time in most of these
1541 circumstances you called for approval, you may have lost 2 your opportunity to do whatever was you were 3 contemplating. 4 It's one of those things that sounds nice 5 but the practicality of it is in these situations there 6 just isn't the time. 7 Q: All right. I appreciate you've 8 already told us the reasons why Incident Commanders are - 9 - are designated because there is the -- a level of trust 10 and comfort in their expertise. 11 A: If you don't have that then you 12 wouldn't put them in that position. 13 Q: And in the -- and in the odd 14 situation perhaps it may arise whereas an immediate 15 supervisor may not agree with an action taken by an 16 Incident Commander, what is the obligation there? 17 A: Well, I don't think any two (2) 18 Incident Commanders -- I mean, in an incident there are 19 some standard operating procedures which basically are -- 20 are processes and steps that you take to try and handle 21 all situations in a similar fashion to put all the 22 safeguards in place. 23 But at every incident something happens 24 that you have absolutely no expectation of happening; be 25 it communications breaking down. And when I'm talking
1551 communications it could be as simple as phone systems or 2 radios in the field. 3 And you have to adapt, you have to use 4 your knowledge and skills to -- to work around some of 5 those situations. So, it -- it -- while you try and 6 handle all the occurrences the same way, I think you -- 7 you have to always be prepared that nothing is ever going 8 to go smoothly. 9 There's always going to be some problems. 10 It's the nature of the business. 11 Q: And again if you disagree with 12 something that -- that an Incident Commander has taken, 13 what -- what would your response be? 14 A: When you say if I disagree, are you 15 referring to if an Incident Commander was to call me to 16 ask permission to do something? 17 Q: Okay. Let's go with that. 18 A: Well, in that case if that Incident 19 Commander had enough time and ability to make that kind 20 of call to bounce something off me, we would discuss it. 21 And hopefully we would come to an 22 agreement as to the best course of action. That very 23 seldom happens as -- as I explained earlier because 24 things happen too quickly. 25 If after an incident, I had some concerns
1561 about something that was done from an operational point 2 of view, that -- at that point in time we would debrief 3 it. Take a look at that particular issue and say, Okay, 4 should this have been done? Was there a better way to do 5 it? 6 And bearing in mind that my view may not 7 always be right either, so we would have to discuss it 8 and -- and just try to come to an agreement. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Unless it was flagrant. 11 Q: And -- and if it was? 12 A: Well, if I had an Incident Commander 13 in the field who was clearly making poor decisions, poor 14 judgments and dropping the ball, then my alternative at 15 that point in time if I had lost confidence, would be to 16 get in my car and go out to the site and relieve him of 17 his duties until I found somebody else that I was 18 comfortable with to bring in and run it myself. 19 You can't sit at home and continually 20 criticize or second guess people. 21 Q: Okay. If I can ask you to turn 22 nextly to Tab Number 15 -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 24 good spot to take a break for the afternoon now? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I think it is.
1571 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps this 2 would be a good time to. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 4 for fifteen (15) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 3:38 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 3:58 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed, please be seated. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. 14 Mr. Parkin, just before the break I -- I 15 was going to ask you if you would turn to Tab 15 of the 16 book of documents in front of you. That is Inquiry 17 Document 3000768. It's marked as Exhibit P-574. 18 It's an e-mail from Nancy Mansell to 19 Thomas O'Grady and you are not copied on that. It is 20 dated September the 1st of 1995 at 13:53 hours and it 21 simply indicates, as you can see in the first line: 22 "I have confirmed with Superintendent 23 Parkin that there [pardon me] there is 24 no concrete information that would lead 25 us to believe the Kettle and Stony
1581 Point residents intend to take over 2 Ipperwash Provincial Park on the Labour 3 Day Weekend. [Next paragraph] 4 However, there are rumours afoot that 5 they may enter the Park on Tuesday 6 after the campers have gone. 7 Contingency plan is in place in the 8 event this actually happens, for your 9 information." 10 Do you recall having a conversation and 11 providing that kind of information to Nancy Mansell? 12 A: I don't recall the conversation. 13 Q: Would that be the kind of information 14 that you would pass along? 15 A: If Nancy had called me looking for 16 maybe some specific answers or a comfort level with some 17 issue that may be being discussed, that wouldn't be 18 totally unusual, and there's nothing there that I would 19 have concerns about sharing with her. 20 Q: That's -- that's something that you 21 would agree with, in terms of what is expressed here, 22 that there was nothing concrete in terms of any 23 information that would lead to believe that there would, 24 in fact, be an occupation of the Park? 25 A: No, it was comments made that were
1591 overheard and, as you say, the rumour mill. Clearly, 2 there was enough to cause us to have to be prepared -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- in the eventuality. 5 Q: That's the contingency plan that you 6 referred to. 7 A: That's the contingency plan, yes, 8 sir. 9 Q: And did you have a personal view as 10 to -- as to the likelihood, one (1) way or another, of -- 11 of an occupation occurring? 12 A: I took the concern seriously, but 13 based on the information, you know, it was fifty/fifty 14 (50/50). 15 Q: All right. If I could ask you to 16 look at your handwritten notes again at page 26 under the 17 entry, "Friday 01 September '95. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes, sir? 22 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 23 you that the first several entries, up until after the 24 noon hour, have nothing to do with the Ipperwash matter, 25 on my reading of it.
1601 A: Yes, sir? 2 Q: And the entry at 12:50 hours, I 3 wonder if you would just tell us about that. 4 A: "I spoke with Nancy Mansell who 5 advised that the Hiawatha First Nations 6 are moving to kick campers out and take 7 over Serpent Mounds Provincial Park on 8 Rice Lake. 9 This Park is on their land which the 10 MNR leases from them and have a lease 11 to spring of '98. 12 Apparently, they are in leasing 13 negotiations. This may be a result of 14 the Conservative Government repealing 15 the Williams' Treaty which exempted 16 First Nations from the Fish and Game 17 regulations, the community harvesting 18 and conservation agreement." 19 Q: All right. And can you tell us where 20 you would have got that information from? 21 A: Nancy Mansell. 22 Q: Oh, I see, she advised you. Pardon 23 me. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right.
1611 A: I'd been -- I was on the phone with 2 Nancy. I can't recall what I was speaking to her about, 3 or in fact, whether she called me. But regardless, she 4 simply passed this information on, given the issue which 5 she was aware of, from her position, as to what was 6 taking place or potentially could take place at Ipperwash 7 Provincial Park. 8 Q: Okay. And did the receipt of that 9 information did it have any impact on what you were doing 10 insofar as your role? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: And I see from your notes that you 13 were then on rest days from September the 2nd, September 14 the 3rd. 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: All right. Monday September the 4th 17 is Labour Day stat. I take it you were referring to the 18 statutory holiday? 19 A: Statutory holiday, yes, sir. 20 Q: Okay. Over that course of time, and 21 I see you have no entry of it, but do you know whether or 22 not you would have spoken to Inspector Carson about the 23 Park becoming occupied on the 4th of September? 24 A: I don't have an entry. I -- I 25 believe I was away, but I can't be a 100 percent that he
1621 didn't call me. 2 Q: All right. Were you aware that 3 Inspector Carson had spoken to Chief Coles at that time? 4 A: I became aware of it. 5 Q: Okay. And does that assist you in 6 terms of recalling whether or not you would have received 7 that information, perhaps in and around that time, that 8 is to say the 4th of September '95? 9 A: No, sir. I -- and I can't recall 10 exactly when I became aware that he talked to Chief 11 Coles. It -- the reason he may have called Chief Coles 12 instead of myself is because I was away. 13 Q: All right. Fair enough. 14 A: That wouldn't be unusual. 15 Q: On page 27 of -- of your handwritten 16 notes, Mr. Parkin, it commences at the top with the entry 17 05 Sept -- I take it that's September of '95? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Perhaps you can just go ahead and 20 tell us what -- what those entries indicate. 21 A: It's Inspector Carson I'm -- I'm 22 speaking to. 23 "It's 10:10 approximately. And he's 24 out -- we're just outlining what is 25 taking place."
1631 The "every two (2) hours", is that he'll 2 contact myself with basically an update. 3 "A copy of the operational plans are to 4 be obtained." 5 That would be what's commonly referred to 6 as Project Maple. 7 A spokesperson appeared to be Bert 8 Manning, possibly, but it kept changing. 9 "The Stoney Pointers are occupying. 10 Tom Bressette, no support. 11 No demands. Park and Matheson Drive 12 there is -- their land. 13 19:30 hours. Went in, confronted the 14 OPP. Told to leave, told they were 15 trespassing. Les Kobayashi, MNR, went 16 to gate to serve notice that the Park 17 was closed and they were trespassing. 18 MNR pursuing an injunction. Feedback 19 to Grand Bend. General warrant needed 20 for video and audio. 21 Current status, checkpoint at 21 and 22 Army Camp. Then Silver Birch Trailer 23 Camp, Parkway Drive, West Ipperwash. 24 We don't have containment. Matheson 25 Drive blocked. Marine being put in.
1641 Next meeting 11:00 hours, warrants 2 being obtained. Mischief and assault 3 police. Subjects identified 4 approximately forty (40) women and 5 kids. 6 and 3 District ERT 1 and 2 in 6 bed. 7 Relief Linton. Press. Marilyn inform 8 Sergeant Babbitt fax all releases. 9 Confirm taping of private line. 10 Darryl Smith, MNR spoke to media, Peter 11 Sturdy." 12 Q: In the audio tape brief in front of 13 you, Mr. Parkin at Tab 1 there is a transcript of a 14 telephone conversation between yourself and Inspector 15 Carson and the time appeared to be indicated at 9:43 -- 16 9:43, 48 hours, it's marked as Exhibit P-448 and it 17 appears at Tab 6 in that exhibit. 18 Okay, are you with me on that? 19 A: I'm not sure. Tab 1? 20 Q: At Tab 1, yes, of the -- 21 A: Yes, John Carson and Tony Parkin, 22 okay. 23 Q: You see that? It starts out, Korosec 24 and he answers apparently, Sergeant Korosec. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't intend, Mr.
1651 Commissioner, incidently that -- that I would play this 2 particular tape. It has been played on a number of 3 occasions. 4 But what I do want to do is simply take 5 Mr. Parkin to a number of these entries as it relates to 6 the testimony that he's just provided and then ask him 7 some questions on that. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 9 that you do have some tapes that you will be playing. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: There will be some 11 tapes that we will be playing, yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: This is not one of 14 them that I intended to play unless there's any violent 15 objection by My Friends. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 17 how it goes. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: All right, thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: And as I understand, Mr. Parkin, 22 you've had occasion to review this transcript on an 23 earlier occasion? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: So if you go down a couple of lines,
1661 you'll -- you'll see that you get through the initial 2 introductions, you're asking each other how you are and 3 Mr. Korosec tells you, well I'm lying saying when I'm 4 saying I'm okay. But -- and then he laughs. 5 And you appreciate that he's -- that 6 things are a little hectic. 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: He tells you that things were a 10 little tense last night. I will just see if I can find 11 that -- it's at the top of page 22. You asked him: 12 "How -- how are you keeping? 13 Oh, not bad. Not bad. It was -- she 14 was a little tense last night." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And he goes onto say: 17 "Uh, we were down in the Park when this 18 thing hit the fan and it was nose to 19 nose for a while and they outnumbered 20 us at the one point so we had no choice 21 but to be safe." 22 Okay. And he continues on and he tells 23 you: 24 "I -- I don't know their -- their -- 25 the group inside. They -- they are
1671 very divided. They have a different 2 leader about every ten (10) minutes." 3 And you say: 4 "Ah is that right? 5 Korosec: Yeah but there's a few real 6 jerks. I'll get you, ah, the Inspector 7 right now." 8 A: Yes? 9 Q: Is this the first that you would have 10 heard of the events of the previous evening? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I believe so in any detail. 15 Q: All right. 16 And from this conversation that you had 17 with Officer Korosec what -- what was your impression as 18 to what went on the previous evening? 19 A: Well, as he indicated to me that they 20 were in the Park; that being him and other members of the 21 OPP when some confrontation took place between people 22 that were coming into the Park 'cause he says they were 23 nose to nose. The potential was there for more violent 24 confrontation and they chose to back off or he chose to 25 back off.
1681 Q: All right. And can you tell us where 2 you were when you were involved in this conversation with 3 Stan Korosec, Sergeant Korosec? 4 A: I would think I would have been in 5 the office. 6 Q: All right. You then go on at the 7 bottom of page 21 to ask for Inspector Carson and you do 8 get on the line eventually with him I think by the middle 9 of the next page? 10 A: Page 22? 11 Q: Pardon me, page 22. That's right. 12 A: Yes, I eventually get Inspector 13 Carson. 14 Q: All right. You indicate to him that 15 you don't like bothering him and he goes on to say well, 16 it's no problem but you have to -- you have to call 17 right? 18 And I think that's where you make the 19 arrangement? 20 A: For the two (2) hours? 21 Q: Right. 22 A: The whole issue there is having been 23 in the position myself things can be fairly hectic and 24 the last thing you need is another phone call from 25 somebody asking you yet another question.
1691 So it tends to run a little easier at the 2 start if the Incident Commander at a certain time can 3 call a designated person to give them an update. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Unless there was something extremely 6 important that just required a call be made. 7 Q: Okay. If we can look at the entry 8 right in the middle of page 23 where you say: 9 "The Chief, he's on the phone to Ron 10 Fox now and he will handle Gerry Boose 11 and unidentified." 12 Can you tell us what that was about? 13 A: Well, Chief Coles obviously was on 14 the phone with Ron Fox. I don't know what the call was 15 about but I'm sure it would be about the situation and 16 apprising him of what had taken place or giving him some 17 further information. 18 And then after he was finished with that 19 call he would go through the same process with Gerry 20 Boose who was the Deputy Commissioner and that would be 21 who Chief Coles would directly report to. 22 Q: Okay. If you look just at...Carson 23 says, Okay and then you say: 24 "And he's expecting a call from the 25 Commissioner."
1701 That would be the Chief that's expecting a 2 call? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: Were you with Chief Coles at that 5 point in time? I take it you were as you knew that he 6 was on the phone. 7 A: We were in separate offices but in 8 proximity. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And I take it the plan would be then 13 that it would be Chief Coles and yourself to deal with -- 14 with Inspector Fox and the Commissioner, to liaise with 15 them so as to allow the Incident Commander to do his job? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right. Were you aware that 18 Inspector Fox had direct contact with Inspector Carson 19 the Incident Commander? 20 A: I became aware of that through the 21 process. 22 Q: All right. Did you have any view on 23 that, on the propriety of that direct contact given what 24 I think you've agreed was the arrangement, and that is to 25 say, that yourself and Chief Coles would deal with
1711 Inspector Fox and the Commissioner? 2 A: Well, I'm not sure when we made any 3 arrangement that excluded Ron Fox from dealing with 4 Inspector Carson. 5 I know later on there was an issue around 6 -- around Ron calling Inspector Carson direct, but prior 7 to this point, yes, in general we would be putting the 8 information up to the Minister's office or to Ron, but I 9 don't think we had, that I'm aware of, precluded Ron if 10 he needed to, to make a phone call. 11 Q: Okay. At this point? 12 A: Not to my knowledge that's correct. 13 Q: All right, thank you. I want to ask 14 you a number of -- a number of different specific issues, 15 then. Specifically let's start with the delivery of the 16 Project Maple document, you've already told us something 17 about that, at page 26 of that transcript. 18 You see right at the top, it says 19 "operational plan" and Carson says, "Yes, it is done"? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Okay, and you ask whether there's a 25 copy of the operational plan and he responds:
1721 "Yes, they're all here. In fact, I 2 wanted to get one down to the Chief, 3 uh, today." 4 And you say: "So it's forthcoming?" 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. I take it you did 7 actually obtain your copy of that operational plan? 8 A: Yes, I did, sir. 9 Q: All right. And do you know whether 10 or not the Chief had obtained his copy as well? 11 A: I'm sure he did. I didn't see it 12 delivered. 13 Q: Fair enough. At page 27, this in 14 relation to your discussion about who would be the 15 spokesperson for the group. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Right in the middle of 18 the page, you say: 19 "A spokesperson for the group?" 20 And Carson responds to you: 21 "We haven't a name because the -- it 22 looks like Bruce Manning or Bert 23 Manning, I mean, but that seems to 24 change. And we spoke to them last 25 night to some degree. Tried to serve
1731 them a notice and they said they would 2 talk to us at noon today." 3 And that's consistent with what you have 4 in your notes as well, correct? 5 A: Yes, my -- my notes are basically 6 bullet points of our conversation. 7 Q: All right. At page 28 in the middle, 8 you're asking, then, about what the demands of the people 9 in occupation are and Inspector Carson tells you: 10 "Ah, none. Ah, it's just it's their 11 land, the Park and Matheson Drive. Our 12 information is we -- okay, just to give 13 the kind of Reader's Digest version of 14 what happened last night. Like, ah, 15 they're -- like they swarmed in there 16 and they get into a verbal barrage. 17 The back window or a cruiser was, ah, 18 smashed out. There was a flare thrown 19 at one of our guys and that started at 20 7:30." 21 Okay, when you asked him as to what time 22 that was, and you confirm with him that that was after 23 the campers had left the Park. 24 A: I don't -- I don't know if I'm 25 confirming or asking.
1741 Q: Okay, fair enough. Okay, in any 2 event, he does tell you that the campers were out but 3 that there were still day users in the Park. 4 A: But -- and that's what I was trying 5 to clarify, that there were still people in the Park. 6 Q: Okay. At page 29, you're now talking 7 about the confrontation. Do you see where you ask: 8 "So how did we get into an altercation, 9 just protecting ourselves?" 10 And I think you're asking that question. 11 It's the fifth entry down. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Did you have some advance information 18 or did you have some information as to what went down? 19 Is this from your conversation earlier with Sergeant 20 Korosec why you -- you come with the -- with the 21 suggestion that we were just protecting ourselves or that 22 -- that question? 23 A: Well, Stan had given me some cursory 24 information while I was waiting to talk to John that may 25 have been in my mind.
1751 Q: Okay. He tells you that there were 2 no officers hurt? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that they were told that they 5 were trespassing. 6 If I can refer you to the next page there 7 is your reference to the Notice of Trespass that you've 8 already testified to. Your notes correspond I would 9 suggest to you to that portion where you talk about: 10 "They went back around 11:30 and a 11 Superintendent of the Park, Les 12 Kobayashi. [You go] Hmm hmm. 13 Carson: Although they weren't able to 14 deliver, to hand over a copy of a 15 notice they did have a conversation 16 with somebody at the gate who -- who 17 would not accept it and, you know, they 18 kept backing away from them but they 19 are aware we have a piece of paper for 20 them that in fact relative to the 21 trespassing issue." 22 And he goes on: 23 "It's just a notice that the Park is 24 officially closed by the Superintendent 25 and they are trespassers. MNR is
1761 pursuing an injunction." 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: With respect to the videotaping issue 7 just the line following that you're asking him: 8 "How did they set up the video? Is it 9 the case where somebody has to go in 10 and retrieve the tapes?" 11 This was the surveillance video that you 12 were aware was being set up in the kiosk as well as in 13 the... 14 A: I was generally aware that they were 15 being installed, yes, sir. 16 Q: Do you know where they were being 17 installed? 18 A: I don't believe I knew where they 19 were being installed prior to the installation; that 20 would have been left up to the technical support people 21 who actually do those types of things. But that 22 obviously would have been a key area. 23 Q: And you had some discussion with 24 Inspector Carson about the requirement for certain -- 25 certain legal requirements, specifically a general
1771 warrant for the video? Do you -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you see that part of the 4 conversation? Did you have anything to do with -- with 5 that end of the issue; that is in terms of obtaining a 6 videotape warrant or audio warrant? 7 A: No, I was just relating to John 8 conversations that I had overheard from some of the 9 criminal investigators and the technical support people. 10 That is all investigative aid and I have no hands on 11 discussion or gave no direction with respect to that. 12 Q: And on the issue of loss of 13 containment at page -- pages 33 onto 38 -- if you look at 14 the bottom of page 33 firstly. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Page 33, yes. 19 Q: Okay. Do you see right -- right at 20 the very bottom: 21 "Parkin: So I guess what I'm hearing 22 is we don't have containment?" 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And Inspector Carson goes on, on the 25 next, page to explain to you that it's not containment as
1781 we would normally understand it; words to that effect. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And you become aware that the -- or 4 you probably were aware previously that the Army Camp was 5 immediately adjacent to the Park on one (1) side. 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And that would allow as you -- as 8 you've indicated: 9 "So that they can go in between the 10 Park and the ground without us being 11 aware." 12 And Inspector confirms that for you. 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Do you see that? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And if you go to the bottom of page 17 35. "I'm only going to ask this 18 question because I'm sure that the 19 Chief is probably going to ask it, how 20 did we given the fact that we have 21 people down there when all this 22 happened, how did we lose containment? 23 And then there's something unidentified 24 beyond that but essentially the question is -- is put to 25 -- to Inspector Carson.
1791 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. And he goes on to explain 3 that: 4 "It was a matter of safety and that 5 people would be hurt." 6 Now the suggestion, Mr. Parkin, may be 7 brought that your questioning of Inspector Carson in 8 losing containment was in fact being critical of him. 9 Do you have -- do you have a view on that? 10 A: No I -- I wasn't being critical at 11 all. That's probably in my position as basic a question 12 as I could ask an Incident Commander knowing full well 13 that at some point in time I'm going to have the 14 discussion with the Chief. 15 I'm having -- I'm talking to the Incident 16 Commander and it's -- it's basically a fact that as I 17 said earlier, you may be the Incident Commander but at 18 the end of the day you're still accountable. 19 And the question what happened, is -- is a 20 pretty basic one. I'm sure if I hadn't have asked John 21 at some point in time, he would have simply told me. 22 Q: And in terms of the explanation he 23 had given you as to why containment was lost, you were 24 obviously accepting of that, of -- of his decision? 25 A: More than -- more than accepting, I
1801 was supporting it because in fact Stan Korosec was the 2 one who made the decision, not John Carson. 3 Again, for the safety of everyone 4 involved, he made the decision to back off and escort the 5 day campers out of the Park. 6 Q: All right. Sorry. Page 38, top of 7 page 38, Inspector Carson tells you: 8 "Because what I would like to do like - 9 - like -- or even if we can achieve it, 10 is to get ERT inserted into the Park so 11 at least we're just in there and in 12 their face even, you know, not to 13 physically scoop them and drag them out 14 but just to be in there and keep an eye 15 on their activities." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And you go onto say: 19 "But you can't, your problem now is as 20 I understand it is you can't drive into 21 Matheson." 22 A: Can't drive on to Matheson, yes, sir. 23 Q: All right. In terms of what 24 Inspector Carson is telling you what he would like to do, 25 you don't offer him any advice or -- or any such thing?
1811 A: I suggest that what he's thinking 2 about doing is that he can't because there's a problem 3 with it. I know -- I know where he's going with his 4 thought process but I'm not in full agreement. 5 Q: Is there anywhere in that transcript 6 where you indicate that you are not in full agreement 7 with that, Mr. Parkin? 8 A: Well he's telling that: 9 "He would like or if we can achieve it 10 to get ERT inserted into the Park so at 11 least we're just in there and in their 12 face, you know, not to physically 13 scoop them and the rest of that." 14 And then I say to him: 15 "But you can (sic) because your problem 16 is, as I understand it, [or as I 17 understood at that time] that you 18 couldn't drive onto Matheson Drive." 19 Matheson Drive, of course, goes around the 20 perimeter of the Park but it's on the other side of Army 21 Camp Road joining the Military Base and the Ipperwash 22 Park. 23 So to me that would be problematic to try 24 and put anybody in there. I'm not as strong I -- I 25 suppose as saying, No, you can't do that, I'm just
1821 raising the issue. 2 Q: All right. If we turn next to page 3 42 and this is I would suggest to you again a comment 4 with respect to containment. You see in the middle of 5 the page, you say -- you say at the top: 6 "Yeah, I'm -- I'm just -- I guess it's 7 unfortunate we couldn't maintain the 8 Park. [And] Carson: Well huh. 9 Parkin: But that's a decision that 10 has to be made by the people as you 11 say. I mean if we're going to get beat 12 up for that reason." 13 Can you just tell us what that is in 14 reference to? 15 A: Can I just have a moment to -- 16 Q: Absolutely. 17 A: -- review this? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Okay, yes. I'm expressing the fact 22 that it's unfortunate that we couldn't maintain or 23 contain the Park but then I'm conceding that regardless 24 of what my personal thoughts are that's a decision that 25 has to be made by the people that are on the ground so to
1831 speak, that are there at that moment in time. 2 And that gets back to one (1) of those 3 issues where -- that I mentioned. There would be no time 4 there to call me and ask for my advice. Similarly, Stan 5 Korosec had no time to call John Carson and ask for his 6 advice. He had to make that decision. And so -- and I 7 fully support that. 8 Q: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: So he goes on to tell you that, well, 13 certainly you could have maintained the Park if we had -- 14 we had the numbers, that sort of thing? 15 He talked to you about safety of the 16 officers or it would have meant somebody getting hurt, 17 maybe not necessarily officers, but somebody might have 18 gotten hurt and hence the decision was made? 19 A: Correct. Stan Korosec had -- was 20 confronted with that decision as to whether to not -- try 21 and get maybe more police officers in, to try and resist 22 the people that were trying to -- to occupy and that's 23 right. That's what could have potentially occurred. 24 So he took the position which was the 25 position of the plan if confronted to remove anybody that
1841 was in the Park peacefully. 2 Q: Okay. And the reason that you were 3 concerned about loss of containment is that that is a 4 question that would come up in the normal course of your 5 briefing and flowing information along? 6 A: Most definitely. 7 Q: You weren't told for example by Chief 8 Coles, Go and ask these questions? You wouldn't need to 9 be told that? 10 A: No, I didn't need to be told that. I 11 -- I knew that that would be something he would simply 12 ask me. 13 Q: By this point in time you would have 14 or would you have been aware that one (1) of the -- one 15 (1) of the main focus points of Project Maple would be a 16 negotiated solution? 17 A: I was, sir. 18 Q: All right. And at page 37 on the 19 topic of negotiations -- sorry to jump back, on page 37 20 of the... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: You see at the bottom you're saying - 25 - you're saying:
1851 "Yeah. No. Yeah, sorry, bad question. 2 Where -- where are we doing our 3 negotiations from?" 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And his response is: 7 "Well, we don't know yet. They said 8 last night they were prepared to talk 9 to us at noon and, like, you know, 10 we're -- we're -- we'll have to play 11 that by ear as we develop that, okay?" 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: There's no issue about Inspector 14 Carson asking you advice about how to get the 15 negotiations on the move? 16 I mean, you didn't offer any advice with 17 respect to that? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Well, I knew that negotiations were 22 part of the plan. One of his first requirements before 23 he could really get started doing too much would be to 24 try and open up some communication. 25 The plan called for certain people to be
1861 used as negotiators and that whole area, I would have 2 been leaving to him. 3 While I -- I did ask the question, where 4 are we doing them from? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: The last area I just want to cover 9 with you, with respect to this transcript, Mr. Parkin, at 10 page 38. Just at the bottom of that page on the entry: 11 "Parkin: Okay, um, you're getting 12 calls from -- is anybody getting to you 13 the Park and Government officials. 14 We've been talking to Beaubien this 15 morning. 16 Carson: Yeah. He, er, called Lacroix 17 and Lacroix's handled that so he's kind 18 of run interference for us that way." 19 Okay, and the reference is in respect to a 20 Government official. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: All right. And in terms of that 23 particular communication, did you see anything wrong with 24 that? 25 A: Which entry, sir? The -- the "we've
1871 been talking to Beaubien this morning"? 2 Q: Yeah, just about -- just about those 3 kinds of things or about Lacroix has -- has talked to -- 4 has handled that. 5 And I'm assuming that it means that he was 6 talking to MPP Beaubien. 7 A: I didn't have any concern at that 8 time. Given the prior meeting that I'd had with Mr. 9 Beaubien, I knew he was very, very concerned about 10 everything that was taking in -- taking place within his 11 area, and I'm sure that he was receiving many calls from 12 his constituents again, so. 13 Q: All right. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I know 15 that we typically will go 'til five o'clock on Monday. 16 It's about eighteen (18) minutes thereabouts before 5:00. 17 I'm going to go into another area. I 18 expect to be a fair bit on that, and I wouldn't 19 necessarily finish. I'm wondering if we might break for 20 the day at this point, to give me an opportunity to 21 perhaps refine some of the things that I'm doing. 22 I realize the sluggish pace is trying for 23 everybody. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 We'll adjourn now and reconvene tomorrow morning at nine
1881 o'clock, okay. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: All right, thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Parkin, 4 thank you. 5 6 (WITNESS RETIRES) 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 9 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday February the 7th at 10 9:00 a.m. 11 12 --- Upon adjourning at 4:40 p.m. 13 14 15 Certified Correct, 16 17 18 19 ________________ 20 Carol Geehan, Ms. 21 22 23 24 25