11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 3rd, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Annie Leeks ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) (np) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) (np) 17 Megan Mackey ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) 21 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 9 7 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 47 8 9 CAROLYN GEORGE, Sworn 10 Examination In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 59 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 214 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-148 Document 1002051 Aazhoodena 4 Fact Sheet, September 1995 8 5 6 P-149 Article dated 10th September, 1995 118 7 from Toronto Star, authored by Peter 8 Edwards. 9 10 P-150 Document 500004, Page 12, 22, 23, 11 Three Maps Showing Route Travelled 12 by Anthony (Dudley) George, in Car 13 Driven by Pierre George, Marked 14 by Witness Ms. Carolyn George, 15 February 03/05 150 16 17 P-151 Empty Plastic Bag Containing Personal 18 Items of Carolyn George Tagged 19 "OPP Exhibit No. 020 Collected 20 Sept 07/95 05:13 Hrs and Minister 21 of the Solicitor General 1J97312 22 Sept 07/95 00:22" 175 23 24 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-152 Document 5000146, Page 01, 4 September 07/'95, 0614-0645 hrs. 5 Carolyn George re: OPP 6 Declaration 179 7 P-153 Document 5000148, pages 1999, 8 2000, 2001 re Ms. Carolyn 9 George's statement 182 10 P-154 Photographs No. 1, 2, 7, 8, 10, 11 11 and 13 taken September 07 or 12 September 08/'95 on CD Rom 203 13 P-155 Document No. 1000709 London Free 14 Press Article "Sister, Trying to 15 Save Dying Kin, Displays OPP 16 Handling Bruises, September 09/'95 213 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding, please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Glenn George is 13 still in the box and he's just coming. And I think Mr. 14 Downard wishes to address one issue before we start. Mr. 15 George, good morning. Just take a seat please. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Just as a matter of 17 housekeeping, sir. The last document we referred to 18 yesterday in my examination which the witness identified 19 as having been distributed September 1995. It's at Tab 20 62 of the Brief I handed out. I just would like to have 21 that marked as an exhibit as a matter of housekeeping. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-148. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 148. 24 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
91 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-148: Document 1002051 Aazhoodena 2 Fact Sheet, September 1995. 3 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We provided a copy to 5 the -- to the Registrar and that was Inquiry Document 6 Number 1002051. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1002051. Thank you. 8 And it's now Mr. Ross, Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. Good morning, Mr. Ross. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Good morning, 12 Commissioner. 13 14 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Resumed: 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: Mr. George, I will start by 18 addressing one (1) matter which was raised by counsel by 19 the OPP or OPPA yesterday, where there was a suggestion 20 that the OPP wanted to be fair to the occupiers, to the 21 Kettle Point group and to the non-aboriginal community. 22 Do you remember that line of questioning? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now on this whole question of 25 fairness, could you perhaps tell the Commissioner, your
101 view on how fair the OPP was to the occupiers; your view. 2 A: My -- my view, I have -- I think I 3 have several views, but I'll -- I'll kind of keep to me, 4 I guess. 5 Q: Well, don't give us the whole 6 thermos, just give us cup. Synthesize them and just let 7 us know what your -- your -- your experience. 8 A: Well, my experience was having -- 9 having, like, a working relationship, I guess, with 10 family and stuff like that and I don't know, ever since 11 going there I've -- I've never had a criminal record. I 12 know that a lot of the -- a lot of the people in the -- 13 in the Camp were getting pulled over all the time, some 14 of them getting charges on them that -- that, I guess, 15 made it -- made life more for -- of a test to them to -- 16 to be there on that land. 17 I know that a lot of them that were there, 18 some of them were young kids that, I guess, they became 19 men now. It -- it goes on and on that to me it just 20 seemed like my -- my dad had -- had something that he 21 kind of held to his heart going home there and it -- and 22 it was kind of like an inspiration, I guess, for other 23 people to want to go there. To me, I just -- I just feel 24 uncomfortable with the fact that I have a -- a criminal 25 record from occupying lands that basically is my
111 inheritance that, you know, that a lot of the old people 2 want to go home, type of thing. 3 Q: How old were you when occu -- when 4 you moved onto the -- the lands back in 1993? 5 A: I'm forty-two (42) now and that's -- 6 be twelve (12) years, probably thirty (30), around there. 7 Q: Okay. And at thirty (30) you had no 8 criminal record and no problems with the police? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And for the first two (2) years when 11 you were on the -- on the range and before occupying the 12 built-up area, was there any problems with the police at 13 that time? The two (2) years that you were up on the 14 range? 15 A: Oh, there's a lot of things. I -- I 16 remember -- 17 Q: Just between yourselves and the 18 police? 19 A: Yeah, I got -- a lot -- a lot of 20 times I'd go to pull out of the Camp and I'd get pulled 21 over. It was -- it was an ongoing thing that everybody 22 that seemed to come and went from the Camp at that time 23 were being followed and, you know, having Military Police 24 basically doing the same thing. I remember being visited 25 by the native liaison from the RCMP at the time.
121 I kind of tried to keep dialogues with all 2 of them, but, you know in the -- in the same breath 3 trying to -- trying to do one (1) thing and then, you 4 know, you -- you work on having working agreements and 5 stuff like that and at the same time you're being 6 targeted by, you know, the -- the police wanting to 7 nitpick everything that you're doing and so on, it was -- 8 it was ongoing and still is today. 9 Q: So would it be fair to say then that 10 up to the time that you moved onto the range you had a 11 normal relationship with the police and after moving onto 12 the range, it changed? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And did it change for the better or 15 did it change for the worse? 16 A: To me it changed for the worse. 17 Q: And was this just your experience or 18 from your knowledge and discussion with people in the 19 Camp, did other people have these experiences? 20 A: I'd have to say almost everybody had 21 those same experiences? 22 Q: Okay. Fine. Now, I want to step you 23 back. It's going to be a total break from what we were 24 talking about. I want you to explain to the Commissioner 25 what your experiences were living on the Kettle Point
131 Reserve and what -- what -- what prompted you to move 2 onto the range in 1993? Don't tell me anything after 3 1993 yet. 4 You're coming up and you're living over at 5 Kettle Point. May 1993 comes around and you move onto 6 the range; why would you do that? 7 A: I think it was a combination of 8 things. I -- I -- I buried my dad there in 1990 and it 9 was -- it was a kind of a fall-type ceremony in August -- 10 or October I mean. And it was a -- it was a constant 11 thing from my mother and a lot of the other old people 12 that used to attend those Locatee meetings as to they 13 were getting old and they were -- and they were failing, 14 like they were getting tired and they wanted to go home. 15 It was one of those things that they 16 wouldn't, I guess, say to themselves but it was being 17 said so that the younger people would hear it. So that I 18 think they basically got frustrated with the fact that 19 some of the things that were going on on Kettle Point, 20 you know, the -- the things like the services, stuff like 21 that, where it come to housing. 22 All those things they were basically being 23 denied and stuff like that where some of them just got 24 tired of that and just wanted to go home. 25 Q: Okay. Now on the word 'home'. You
141 were born on Kettle Point, were you? 2 A: I lived there, yeah. I was born in 3 Sarnia. 4 Q: You was -- you were born in Sarnia? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: But you lived -- you grew up on 7 Kettle Point? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And why did you still regard Stoney 10 Point as home? 11 A: Well it was a known fact within our 12 family that that's what I heard constantly from my dad 13 was that's where I was born and raised. And he used to 14 talk about, you know, how he missed that part and he -- 15 he felt saddened that he didn't have a -- a -- like a 16 place for his boys and his family basically to inherit 17 because the Military had taken it from him. 18 And he used to get frustrated because he - 19 - he never had the ability to go into a bush on Kettle 20 Point and he just cut wood if he needed. He had to -- he 21 had to go to the Band office to get a wood cutting 22 permit. 23 Q: To cut wood on Kettle Point? 24 A: No. To cut wood in the -- in the 25 Camp.
151 Q: To cut wood on Stoney Point? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Yeah, I see. Now you also spoke 4 about housing. How was housing distributed? How was the 5 housing program managed at Kettle Point? 6 A: Jeez, I -- I think it was just like 7 it is today. Like you -- I guess if you have money, you 8 can just do whatever you want. But a lot of times 9 housing is -- I don't know, it's a different type of 10 thing now with the CMHC. I know back then it was funded 11 through the -- through the council's housing department. 12 And I don't really know the particulars. 13 All's I know is when my -- my mother at the time had 14 asked for renovations and they at one time agreed to give 15 her renovation dollars and she never ever did receive 16 them. 17 Q: So housing really was dependent on 18 the will of council? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And what about other services? 21 A: Well if you -- if you were living on 22 the reserve a lot of times they -- they still do it 23 today, a lot of the -- a lot of the men I know, a lot of 24 my relatives that usually fish for a living, some of them 25 -- the fishing's no good so they -- they try to rely on
161 welfare and some of them they -- they're basically told 2 you got to sell your nets and your boat and everything 3 before you can receive any kind of assistance. 4 I don't -- I don't know the ins and outs. 5 I know that a lot of times when I was kind of in need and 6 I -- I tried to go there and I basically was told that 7 you don't qualify, type of thing, so I never -- I never 8 made it a habit of going there and asking. 9 Q: Yeah. Well, was also, was there any 10 difference in treatment with respect to housing and other 11 services at Kettle Point, between people who were 12 traditionally from Kettle Point and people who came over 13 from Stoney Point? Did you observe a difference in 14 treatment? 15 A: Yeah. I noticed there was -- there 16 was a lot of the people that -- that my relatives like 17 you said, that are, I guess -- more so like from my dad's 18 side, that found it kind of rough, hard to get any kind 19 of help with housing. But it was different on my 20 mother's side because that -- that's where she was from. 21 I noticed that a lot of them had been 22 given new houses and stuff like that without having to, 23 you know, go into an in-depth thing on land or assets or 24 anything like that. It was easier for the ones on my 25 mother's side to -- to receive those.
171 Q: I see. Now, as far as elections are 2 concerned, elections down on Kettle Point. My 3 understanding is that Tom Bressette was the chief in '90 4 and '93. Is this your understanding? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Now my understanding also is that the 7 election -- that it was also for a two (2) year term. 8 Was that your understanding? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: So that if he is chief in 1993, he 11 had to be elected either in 1993, 1992, or 1991? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. And around that time, if you 14 were a Band member and you were not a resident on Kettle 15 Point, could you vote? 16 A: No. 17 Q: So that the election really related 18 to the people eligible were Band members who were 19 resident on the Kettle Point reserve lands? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: So that when there was a move onto 22 the range, if there was an election that year, the Band 23 members who were now living on the range, could they 24 vote? 25 A: No. They were told, No.
181 Q: Now, as far as the entry onto the 2 range is concerned, you've indicated it was some time in 3 May 1993? 4 A: May 6th, of '93 is the exact date. 5 Q: And you remember that because that is 6 your stop drinking day; am I correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I see. And what kind of support did 9 the Occupiers get from Chief and council, at Kettle 10 Point, when they went onto the range? 11 A: I -- they didn't get no support. I - 12 - I remember yesterday they were asking about a -- a 13 letter at the -- at the gate being served, but I remember 14 more clearly that they -- I remember seeing Tom Bressette 15 out on Highway 21 trying to hand a -- hand a letter over 16 the fence to ask these people to get off of the -- the 17 Camp and I -- I'm not too sure on what time. I know it 18 was in May. 19 Q: No, no. Stop for a minute. What I'm 20 speaking about is up on the range -- up on the rifle 21 range? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And that's what you're speaking about 24 when there -- there was this effort to hand the letter 25 over?
191 A: Yeah. 2 Q: I see. So you did not -- so the 3 Occupiers did not get any support from Chief and council? 4 A: No. 5 Q: No. And during the summer of 1993, I 6 understand that there were some meetings down at the 7 offices of the Chiefs of Ontario, down at Gord Peterson's 8 (phonetic) office. Do you remember those meetings? 9 A: Some of them. There was a few of 10 them, yeah. 11 Q: And what were those meetings about? 12 A: In the beginning I think we were 13 working on formalizing and putting together, like, a 14 working agreement type of thing, that it was going to be 15 like a collective thing of all the people. I -- I'm -- 16 to my understanding it was -- it was going to be directed 17 to the DND, the Department of National Defence. 18 Q: But you see, who -- which groups were 19 represented at that meeting down at Gord Peters' office, 20 down at the Chiefs of Ontario; which groups? 21 You were there as -- on -- as part of the 22 protestors; am I correct? 23 A: Yeah. The Stoney Point Group was 24 asking that the -- the Chiefs of Ontario office help them 25 and assist that -- to work with the -- the Kettle Point
201 Council at the time. 2 Q: I see. It was a working relationship 3 trying -- you were trying to put together a working 4 relationship with the Kettle Point, through the Offices 5 of the Chiefs of Ontario? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the working relationship, you 8 spoke about DND. How -- how did the DND tie into this? 9 A: I think DND was kind of like what the 10 people in the Camp were trying to put a face on, who -- 11 whoever it is that they -- they got to contact to -- to 12 negotiate how they were going to return the land and 13 that's where they, you know, we -- we were trying hard to 14 work with the council at Kettle Point at that time where, 15 you know, there -- there -- there was things like -- like 16 I just told you. 17 There was a -- there was a -- a letter 18 being served to get off the land and -- and yet I still 19 tried working with them. 20 Q: Okay. And so this working 21 relationship, how far did it get? 22 A: Oh, jeez, I -- I remember we had a 23 little, I think it was a Memorandum of Understanding and 24 a Statement of Principles. There was -- there was a -- 25 oh, jeez, there was almost to the point where we had the
211 contacts with DND. I can't remember if it was Captain 2 Prentice or Major Walsh. I -- I know I had viewed -- oh, 3 not much viewed, but I remember talking on a conference 4 phone in -- in the Chiefs Ontario Office with Fred 5 McGuire. He was on the phone. 6 Q: So, that's Fred McGuire from DND? 7 A: Yeah, Fred Maguire. 8 Q: And Captain Prentice from DND? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And Major Walsh from DND? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: These were the people involved? And 13 so you say that you got your Statement of Principles 14 pretty well down and -- and almost worked out? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Did it ever go forward or did it go 17 sideways? 18 A: It went sideways, I guess. It -- it 19 more or less along -- along the lines of -- of I think it 20 had that -- that Kettle and Stony thing by the -- by the 21 Military. I think it was the Military that wanted -- if 22 it was to go any further that it had to be under that 23 part of the Kettle and Stony Point. 24 It could have been, I -- I'm kind of 25 confused because there was -- there was a lot of meetings
221 that -- that I was attending at -- at this time. And I 2 was -- I was basically being where I kind of like dodging 3 these police that had warrants for my arrest throughout 4 the same time. 5 Q: No, no, no. Don't get into that, 6 let's -- let's deal with what I ask you if you don't 7 mind. So as far as these settlement principles and this 8 working relationship; it was documented but it just went 9 off the rails? 10 A: Yep. 11 Q: I see. Was Maynard George heading up 12 the -- the occ -- the group of occupiers at that time? 13 A: I know there was a -- 14 Q: Now if you can't remember please tell 15 me, because I've got other things I want to ask you. 16 A: Yes. I think so. 17 Q: Was Maynard George heading it up? 18 A: Yeah, Maynard. 19 Q: Thank you. Now after that I 20 understand that there was this march to Ottawa and you 21 were involved in that? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Did you get any support from chief 24 and council with respect to the march to Ottawa? 25 A: No. No. No support there.
231 Q: And later on, still in 1993, around 2 November, do you recall whether or not further efforts 3 were made to put together another working agreement with 4 Kettle -- between the occupiers and Kettle and Stony 5 Point and Kettle Point chief and council? 6 A: Yeah. I think round -- round 2 in 7 that -- in that time was lawyers. I think Ron Spike, 8 yourself, Russell Riggs. Those guys were kind of like 9 taking the direction as to somehow trying to formulate 10 some kind of an agreement to work together. 11 Q: And was that done -- well it was Carl 12 George at that time directing the affairs for the 13 occupiers? 14 A: Yeah. There is some in -- in the 15 time frame where Maynard was -- like he was wanting to be 16 the research man and -- and I think I was in -- like I 17 was saying, being wanted or something here there and 18 everywhere and so Carl was like being in attendance to 19 these types of meetings, eh? 20 Q: I see. So the transition from 21 Maynard to Carl, was this a confrontational one or was it 22 by agreement, could you -- can you recall? Was he a 23 problem? 24 A: No. It was -- it was along the lines 25 of -- I guess one guy carrying that -- that part of that
241 fight whatever that means with trying to find some 2 mechanism to get to the Department of National Defence. 3 And we had to have someone over here to -- to gather, you 4 know, information, documents and stuff like that. 5 And I think that's what Maynard was 6 directing some of his energies to because I -- I can't 7 remember if he was on council on Kettle Point at the time 8 or not. I --I -- there's a ton of things and -- 9 Q: However, however Maynard was looking 10 after research and as far as directing the group of 11 occupiers, Carl was doing some of that? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. Now in the latter part of 14 1993, do you recall whether or not there were any 15 meetings with representatives from the Department of 16 National Defence? 17 A: I -- 18 Q: In London, Ontario. 19 A: Yeah. I -- I was in London. I -- I 20 attended some meetings. I -- I remember one was taped I 21 think. I can't remember who was it, Captain or Major 22 Walsh or -- I never had a -- a meeting with Fred McGuire 23 and so I'm pretty sure it was Major Walsh and maybe -- 24 maybe Captain Prentice too, I think. 25 Q: So those names come to mind and you
251 recall a meeting in London, Ontario -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- when the meeting was tape 4 recorded? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: I see. Did you ever get a copy of 7 that tape recording? 8 A: No. I think the DND's had -- that 9 was their tape so -- 10 Q: Now the short answer is no, Mr. 11 George, and you give me that. At -- do -- do you recall 12 around the time when you said the lawyers were involved, 13 I think you said Spike George. 14 A: Ron George, yeah. 15 Q: Ron George and another lawyer working 16 for the Stoney Pointers and Russell Rakes (phonetic) 17 working for Kettle Point? 18 A: Oh yeah, I forget his name. He was - 19 - he was from Alberta. Oh gees, I can't remember his 20 name offhand. 21 Q: No problem. No problem. You gave 22 the names, as I recall, Ron George and some Ross guy and 23 Russell Rakes? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Yeah. Now, at any of these meetings,
261 do you recall whether or not any minutes were taken? 2 A: Oh, yeah, there was always minutes 3 taken. There was -- 4 Q: Do you recall whether or not any 5 meetings were held at the Council Chambers down at Kettle 6 Point? 7 A: There was meetings there, yeah. 8 Q: And do you recall whether or not at 9 those meetings anybody took minutes? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Do you recall who took minutes? 12 A: I -- oh, there were several ones. I 13 -- the ones in particular I remember would be Brenda 14 Gibbons (phonetic), Diane Thomas. I can't remember if 15 Faye Jackson was there or not. I think she was there too 16 in the -- in the earlier stage. 17 Q: But remember those -- give me the 18 names -- Brenda --? 19 A: Brenda Gibbons. 20 Q: Brenda Gibbons? 21 A: Diane Thomas. 22 Q: Diane Thomas and -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- probably Faye Jackson? 25 A: Yeah, Faye Jackson.
271 Q: And are these people First Nations 2 people? 3 A: Yeah, they're cousins. 4 Q: Cousins of yours? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Residing where? 7 A: On Kettle Point. 8 Q: On Kettle Point. I see. So then we 9 move forward. Your -- your meetings with -- with DND and 10 the officers that you've identified: Walsh, Prentice, and 11 probably McGuire, did these go anywhere? What happened 12 with those discussions? 13 A: Gees, I don't know. I -- I was kind 14 of -- I was kind of trying to find out from -- from the 15 legal advisors at the time what -- what exactly went on. 16 I know there was a -- I know there was a thing like I -- 17 I mentioned earlier about where the DND had wanted the -- 18 this working agreement to be headed by the -- the Chief 19 and Council at Kettle Point and there was a -- there was 20 a thing about who the chief was back then of Stoney Point 21 and how it was that they were to, I guess, portray their 22 -- their autonomy, I guess, to the DND type of thing. 23 Q: I see. So, a question came up as to 24 whether or not Stoney Point was a group that could be 25 negotiated with?
281 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And DND took what position? 3 A: Their position was they -- I think 4 they basically wanted to just deal with their federally 5 recognized Band, I guess. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: So then as we step back a bit, here 9 we are in 1993 where the chief is voted in by people on 10 Kettle Point? 11 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 12 Q: A group move to what was to -- to 13 Stoney Point, without any assistance of Chief and Council 14 and in opposition to Chief and Council -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: Correct so far? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: They go on a march to Ottawa, no 19 support from Chief and Council. Correct so far? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, they're negotiating -- they -- 22 they try to put together working agreements with Kettle 23 Point? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And Kettle Point Chief and Council,
291 to some degree, cooperating and trying to put a working 2 agreement together? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then when it comes to the land 5 the Government of Canada, through the DND, says, No, 6 they're not going to talk to you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: But they will talk to the Chief and 9 Council of Kettle Point who didn't support this move all 10 the way through? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: As far as some of the personalities 13 are concerned, you say that Ron George was involved in -- 14 in some of these dealings? 15 A: Yes, Ron George was finishing up 16 his -- 17 Q: Just give me an answer, please. 18 A: There was -- 19 Q: Ron George was involved? 20 A: Yeah, he was. 21 Q: Yeah. And Carl George was involved? 22 A: Yeah. Earl George -- 23 Q: What about Greg George? Was he 24 involved? 25 A: No. Greg wasn't around at that time.
301 Q: What about Clifford George? Was he 2 involved? 3 A: Oh, Clifford was always involved. 4 Q: What about Rose Manning? 5 A: Yeah, Rose was involved. 6 Q: And Bert Manning? 7 A: To an extent, yeah. 8 Q: And Bruce Manning? 9 A: Yeah, Bruce was there. 10 Q: And Hubert George? 11 A: Hubert was there, yeah. 12 Q: And Dean Cloud? 13 A: Dean? Yeah, he was there. 14 Q: And Carmen Rogers? 15 A: Yeah, he's -- he was there, too. 16 Q: And Gordon Cloud? 17 A: Gord Cloud? Yeah. 18 Q: So these were people who were some of 19 the occupiers who were involved in these processes trying 20 to -- to engage with Kettle Point? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yeah. Now you also mentioned the 23 name Rosemary UAR. Tell us a little more. What happened 24 and how -- how was her name featuring in this? 25 A: I remember --
311 Q: Who was she? 2 A: She'd be like the MP. I think she's 3 a Liberal -- Liberal MP in the area. 4 Q: Yeah. The Federal MP for this area? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: And -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- I remember we had a round table 10 discussion. I -- I'm lost for dates. I just remember 11 what happened. I -- I remember there was Robert Reid 12 (phonetic), Rosemary Ur -- 13 Q: When you say Robert Reid, do you mean 14 Judge Robert Reid? 15 A: Justice Robert Reid, yeah. There was 16 -- I can't remember the name of that guy -- I think it 17 was Don Adams, gees I forget from Bosanquet Township we 18 had -- we had -- it wasn't the mayor, the business 19 manager. I can't remember off hand. I remember Irv 20 (phonetic) George was the Chief at the time. 21 There was -- I -- I can't remember the 22 dates but I remember we -- we hosted the meetings trying 23 -- trying to somehow find a mechanism again to I guess 24 initiate talks or working relationships to somehow get 25 the land back.
321 Q: I see. Do you recall whether or not 2 there was any correspondence sent to Rosemary Ur, any 3 letters? 4 A: Oh I -- I kind of think that we sent 5 letters to all of the politicians of the day. I -- I 6 remember having to participate in -- in a demonstration 7 in Point Edward when Kim Campbell was in Point Edward 8 speaking. 9 I remember -- I remember different things 10 like that that we -- we tried at all levels, federal, 11 local, municipal, provincial. I'd sent letters to 12 basically everyone involved even like Indian Affairs 13 Department and stuff like that. 14 Q: Very good. Now, in 1993 there was a 15 federal election and the government changed. Now after 16 the government changed -- sorry, there was suggestion 17 that when you moved -- when the occupiers moved onto the 18 range that DND took the position that you were 19 trespassing. 20 Do you recall that discussion yesterday? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Now as far as this trespass is 23 concerned, could you tell us whether or not at any time 24 DND gave permission to occupy a section of the range? 25 A: I know at that -- at that same time
331 we were being told we were trespassing and then in the -- 2 in the -- out of Ottawa there was this -- this letter 3 that -- that granted the people that were occupying that 4 piece of land on the other side of that steel bridge, 5 that they granted them a two hundred (200) metre by two 6 hundred (200) metre area. 7 I remember seeing that -- I -- I can't 8 find it in my papers. But I remember hearing that. 9 Q: Now that's all right. I -- a copy 10 Commission counsel now has a copy of that letter. I just 11 wanted it through you. So here's this letter from 12 Ottawa -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- giving permission to occupy two 15 hundred (200) by two hundred (200) area? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Two hundred (200) metre by two 18 hundred (200) metre area. So that in fact if you were 19 trespassing before there's a question now whether or not 20 with permission you're still trespassing. 21 A: I don't know. They give you a place 22 to occupy I guess. 23 Q: Okay. If you will excuse me a 24 minute? 25
341 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: So, as I continue, Mr. George, so 4 there was this letter from some department in -- some 5 Government department in Ottawa -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- authorizing the use of a section 8 of the range? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, do you know of a chief by the 13 name of Doug Miracle (phonetic)? 14 A: Yeah, I do. Yes. 15 Q: Do you remember involve -- attempts 16 to involve him in negotiations to -- to develop this 17 working relationship with Kettle Point? 18 A: There -- there is a lot of times that 19 I used to go to that office in London to get some of my 20 papers copied. The -- at that time they used to let us 21 do that and I used to share with them the -- the goings 22 on within the -- the Camp to let them know at that -- at 23 that level, like, what exactly is going on. 24 Doug Miracle was always one (1) of those 25 guys that -- that, like, family friend type of thing that
351 you, I guess, share that -- that type of -- you know when 2 you -- when you got documents you want to -- you want to 3 -- need copies so that you can go back and give people 4 copies in the Camp, that, you know, you -- you leave them 5 one (1) and, you know, that's -- that's a -- that was, 6 like, at the beginning, but I remember they -- they were 7 offering more support along the way once they were 8 getting more and more information. 9 Q: And he was with the Association of 10 Iroquois and Allied Indians? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the name, Rocket Robart 13 (phonetic), do you remember that name? 14 A: Rocky Robart, yes I do. 15 Q: And in what context do you remember 16 that name? 17 A: I remember I -- 18 Q: Who was he, sorry, who was he? 19 A: Rocky was a big guy, he was a -- I 20 think he was a CSIS investigator type of thing. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: I can't remember offhand what -- I 23 think it was CSIS who he worked for. I only met him 24 once, but that's -- jeez, that's going way back. I know 25 me and Carl and Clifford had met with him over -- we were
361 looking to get those investigations on the, I think they 2 were swastikas at the time that were being painted on the 3 trees inside the Camp -- inside the Military Camp. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: And I know that at the time we 6 couldn't basically go to anybody in the Military or the 7 RCMP or the OPP to help us in those types of 8 investigations, so I think Clifford was the guy that -- 9 that headed that one I think, I'm pretty sure. 10 Q: Now, I don't propose to walk you 11 through what happened between July 1995 and around August 12 6th -- sorry September 6th or 7th, 1995. I think there's 13 enough coverage on that. But I want to ask you about the 14 interview that you had given to the SIU around September 15 the 12th, 1995. 16 You recall that interview, do you? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: Now, in response to some questions 19 yesterday, you expressed a view that -- that there was a 20 level of frustration at the time of giving that 21 interview? 22 A: Yes. I was more along the lines of 23 anger, I think. 24 Q: I see and I think that came out in -- 25 in the document. The -- the -- apart from the language,
371 could you perhaps enlighten us. If you were to be given 2 an interview today, would you give it in those -- in 3 those words? 4 A: No, I wouldn't, it's a different 5 setting now. I still feel a little bit of the anger, but 6 I don't think I would allow it to be taped. I don't 7 think I would speak it in that manner. I think the 8 frustration part will always probably be there to an 9 extent, but I think I've -- I've kind of -- was able to 10 change through time, I hope. 11 Q: For instance, there's a section in 12 that interview where you're referring to -- you were -- 13 you were very colourfully, expressing what would happen 14 if people were to use force against your people. 15 Would you agree with me that the language 16 was a bit extreme? 17 A: Oh, yeah. I was -- I was mad, like I 18 was -- there was things that were going through my mind, 19 you know, like, I -- I -- sometimes have -- have a thing 20 where I'm lost for words, like, I remember talking to 21 that part about the raping and the pillaging and I, you 22 know, when you're mad you say things like that, and I -- 23 jeez. 24 I guess you say those things when you're 25 in your own home and that's kind of like, the setting was
381 -- I still live in those buildings where that statement 2 was taken and I don't talk like that now, so. 3 Q: Statements made in extreme anger and 4 frustra -- and out of real frustration? 5 A: Yeah. Yes, that's what that was. 6 Q: But I take it that, in spite of all 7 of this, even if you turn back the hands of time, would 8 you still go onto the range? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And would you still move into the 11 built-up area? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And would you still be in favour of 14 the taking of the Park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And what about up on the corner up at 17 Fort Franks where there are some cottages, what's your 18 view on that? 19 A: Maybe that's a thing for another day, 20 type of thing. I've got to sort one (1) thing out at a 21 time, but I -- I have that belief of, you know, there's - 22 - there's a territorial boundary in these old Treaty 23 books that, I don't think that can be scratched out of my 24 mind. 25 It's -- it was a thing that my mother had
391 always referred to and my father had always referred to 2 and it's a thing that exists to this very day, where the 3 people in Awash (phonetic) still come to meet with us as 4 they always did prior to any other change that has 5 happened. 6 And, yeah, I probably would do the same 7 thing again, given the circumstances as the people 8 wanting to go home. I -- I don't know, there's -- 9 there's all of these things about when you -- when you 10 look at how our people have no land for, you know, our 11 future generations to prosper, to grow, to live, and you 12 see the young men that, you know, that have stories 13 what's in their own families, about having hunting 14 grounds, that, we don't have no hunting grounds no more 15 and it's like the lake, the water, the water and lake is 16 getting polluted and fish are being depleted. 17 There's -- there's so many different 18 things that, I don't know, if doing things like taking 19 back all your land is going to change that or make it 20 better at this point. I think it's kinda almost beyond 21 repair, type of thing, I don't know. 22 It's -- you're asked to do some things for 23 Elders, you basically, you either honour them or you 24 don't. And sometimes it was -- I always said, you know, 25 if they ask you to do something like get water or wood
401 and you say no, then they basically never ask you to do 2 ever -- anything ever again and they don't look at you, 3 they don't talk to you, they basically disown you, so. 4 Q: And I take it, sir, that it is fair 5 to say that a lot of what happened was driven by the 6 views of the Elders? 7 A: Yes. Yes, it was. 8 Q: And accepted and agreed to by the 9 younger people? 10 A: Yeah. Yes, sir. 11 Q: And as far as going onto the range, 12 moving into the built-up area and later going to the 13 Park; were you doing this for Glen George personally? 14 Did you expect to get a deed, something that said, this 15 land is yours personally? 16 A: I might have even made those 17 statements, but no, I never, ever, got no nothing. It 18 was mostly for the Elders and the old people, the -- the 19 young ones, the unborn ones, type of thing. You do that 20 for them and hopefully that maybe they can have a future, 21 I guess. 22 Q: Would you say it was a traditional 23 and cultural obligation that you felt you had? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, there are a couple things more I
411 -- there's one thing that I've got to go back to, the 6th 2 of September, around the end of the day, the setting is, 3 that the police are already massed, there is a sense that 4 a problem could develop. 5 And then there's a triggering event. 6 Something happens as a result of which there's 7 confrontation, shooting, wounding, and death. What do 8 you -- what -- what -- what triggering event do you 9 identify as really the match that is being thrown on this 10 explosive situation? 11 A: I, myself, going through the things I 12 went through is that at that time it was -- it was so 13 strange to see councillors like Bernard George and 14 Slippery George make, you know, grand entry appearance, 15 whatever. Through all the time I never seen support from 16 that council, chief, councillors. 17 Just seeing that at that time was -- to 18 me, that eerie feeling started when seeing these people, 19 I guess -- I guess the term, "wanting to help you out" -- 20 help you actually out of the -- out of the Camp -- out of 21 the Park. 22 I sensed that and that was the reason I 23 had went and wanted to talk with Clifford at -- at that 24 time because I was trying to find out from him if he had, 25 you know, heard anything or noticed anything. And -- and
421 it was, I guess, a -- a thing where, you know, when some 2 of the other people were, you know, gone; some of them 3 had moved out that you -- you kind of -- you kind of 4 monitored those types of things as to reasons why. 5 But it was just -- to me it was a -- it 6 was a big question mark in the back of mind as to, you 7 know, what I -- what I really -- I literally seen Gerald 8 talking to -- to the police. And -- and I was there for 9 a while and -- and at that time, I remember seeing the -- 10 the police actually stand in front of Gerald so that I 11 couldn't see him no more. They all lined up along that 12 car that he was sitting in. 13 And that was, I guess, my cue to take off, 14 I guess. And I -- and then I -- I went down to -- to 15 where that incident had taken place, right basically 16 where Dudley got shot. 17 And it was just a -- it was just an eerie 18 feeling as to I -- I couldn't put that part together at 19 the time as to, you know, reading a letter in the 20 newspaper in, like, the Forest paper, which everybody 21 reads in the area where this councillor's making those 22 types of statements about the people occupying the Camp 23 and occupying the Park and stuff like that, that he would 24 show up, you know. 25 And it was a -- it was a thing that I -- I
431 can't -- I can't figure out why he would be there. And - 2 - and what exactly it is that -- that my cousin Stewart 3 had done is -- is kind of like possibly the thing that I 4 would have done if I was there, you know? Somebody don't 5 want to come to me and face-to-face to say those types of 6 things and uses the media and the newspaper to -- to say 7 them and then come there in person, didn't seem right. 8 And to me I -- I -- have this feeling 9 today that that there was the thing that led to Dudley 10 being shot, to tell you the truth. And it just seemed 11 kind of so strange now when I look back at it that you 12 never really get those answers, like, say, what happened 13 to Bernard being almost beaten to death. And, you know, 14 none of the police remember that. 15 And it just seems strange about they would 16 remember a helicopter being shot that, you know, people 17 in here would ask such a question and the amount of 18 questions about a helicopter. Well, the helicopter's 19 probably still alive today, but my cousin isn't. 20 To me, I get frustrated, too, when, you 21 know, you're -- you're asked to give evidence and stuff 22 like that and I didn't come here to mock this -- this 23 Inquiry, but some of those things just didn't seem right 24 to -- to -- to what it is that we're trying to -- to do 25 here.
441 Sometimes it -- it's hard to try and put 2 words in -- in a fashion like my -- my statement to the 3 SIU, that was -- that was something that was coming right 4 from here and -- and I was basically lost for words 5 there. And I -- I kind of showed my frustrations to this 6 investigator which I never -- I never got to see these -- 7 these -- the print of it, eh. 8 But it was a taped conversation too, eh. 9 And man, if I could change things -- like if I could 10 change the past I'd -- I'd probably go way back beyond 11 that. 12 Q: Did you get a copy of the tape from 13 the investigators? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And you never got a copy of the -- 16 the transcribed document? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Now as far as the -- the -- would -- 19 would it be fair to say that between the occupiers and 20 down at the -- and the administration down at Kettle 21 Point, there's a high level of tension? 22 A: I don't really know. I wasn't really 23 there at Kettle Point at that time. 24 Q: No, no. I don't think you got my 25 question. You guys moved onto the range.
451 A: Yeah. 2 Q: You didn't get any support from 3 Kettle Point? 4 A: Yeah, that's right. 5 Q: If you got to move back to Kettle 6 Point at this stage, what do you think your life would be 7 like? 8 A: It would probably be the same it was 9 when I left to move onto the Camp. 10 Q: Which is what? 11 A: Basically, you know, you basically 12 couldn't get a job on the reserve. You'd have to go get 13 a job off the reserve. You -- if you wanted to build 14 your house you basically have to build it with your own 15 money and you wouldn't be able to seek that kind of 16 funding from the Band. I don't think the banks would 17 want to lend you any money either because you're on 18 reserve land. 19 So you're basically better off to go find 20 somewhere in the city or something like that. Or in the 21 bush or something where, you know, you could live like a 22 hermit type of thing. 23 Q: So, really, you couldn't go back. 24 You couldn't live back at Kettle Point, could you? 25 A: I probably could if I wanted to but I
461 -- I, myself had set out in a direction as to being 2 raised in Kettle Point, that I -- I'm in this direction 3 and that's the direction that I'm to go type of thing. I 4 think if I was to go anywhere if I -- if I was being 5 moved out of the Camp I think my next option would be the 6 Pinery I guess. 7 I don't know. That's -- that's the 8 direction that I left Kettle Point so I'd probably keep 9 on going in that direction. 10 Q: I see. Now as a kind of a wrap-up 11 question, I'll ask you to give the Commissioner your 12 views on what this Commission can do with respect to the 13 problems which led to the occupation of the land, that's 14 number 1. And what could be done for the people? 15 And 2) in the event of such another 16 occupation, how to ensure that it comes to a peaceful, 17 rather than a violent, conclusion. So let's deal with 18 the first one first, the occupation. Your -- your views 19 to the Commissioner. 20 A: I think my view is that I think it's 21 a -- it's a thing that I think even with myself I -- I 22 kind of proven that the Chief and Council at that time 23 strictly dealt with the -- the people living on the -- on 24 the reserve. And I don't know if there's decisions that 25 have ever changed that, where let's -- I've never -- I
471 haven't seen any support or help come my way yet. 2 So I don't know if it's in the power of 3 the Commission to give the land back or -- I -- I -- I 4 don't know who to go to. I -- I can only speculate that, 5 you know, if there was something that was positive that 6 would come out of it that that would be part of it; that 7 you know, that -- that the people, you know, Dudley's 8 family, they don't have a place to live if that's where 9 they choose to live that, you know, he -- he stood for 10 that. 11 I know the old people over there, the 12 Elders, they basically were tired of, you know, the way 13 they've ever been treated in Kettle Point and I think 14 that was the -- the part of what -- would -- made them 15 want to move. I think it would be, you know, something 16 special to them to see that where that became real -- 17 wamana (phonetic) -- in our language, or make it real by 18 giving, you know, those lands back to the ones like 19 Clifford. 20 And those ones that are still alive, like, 21 I think there's still a handful of them left that, you 22 know, come from there that witnessed the, you know, Army 23 coming there and using that might of an Army to move them 24 off their little corner of the world. 25 I think -- I think sometimes, somewhere,
481 somehow the -- the honouring of the old past treaty 2 agreements that were made be basically honoured. I know, 3 myself, I feel all the time that, you know, no problems 4 going to work elsewhere that -- that issue of the 5 taxation thing has always been a -- a thing that, you 6 know, when people hear them talk about their 7 constitutional rights. And -- and you hear about, you 8 know, you still have to pay these taxes that you were 9 told that you were to be exempt from. 10 You see how the -- the present day 11 government's creating new taxes like the -- the GST that 12 basically is a slap in the face to all the aboriginal 13 people of Canada. 14 You see those types of things that be 15 brought out that, you know, you -- you see them 16 constantly attacking them in that type of fashion that I 17 -- I just feel frustrated thinking that, you know, that I 18 have no problems with that. But I don't get those types 19 of services as being a taxpayer, so it's -- it's a -- 20 it's a no-win situation in that aspect. 21 But I'm always trying to be positive in -- 22 in those areas, but it's -- it's kind of like a -- a 23 lifestyle that, I guess, given the fact that you now -- 24 Q: Mr. George, I think you're straying a 25 little bit too -- too far. What I wanted to know is
491 about the land. I think you've given us some idea about 2 the frustration of the Elders and so on. 3 Now, I -- I don't want to just go off on a 4 tangent. Now, in the event that such a sit-in -- 5 something like this happens again in the future, what can 6 you say -- I mean, how do you avoid the violence? How do 7 you avoid police shooting? It seems as though, number 1, 8 the police -- I must ask you -- around the time when you 9 -- when the Camp was occupied, were there any guns in 10 that area? 11 A: No. 12 Q: So there's no guns and then the 13 police seem to have -- had the view that there were guns. 14 How do you deal with that and prevent a situation where 15 the police say, Well, I thought they had guns and as the 16 evidence falls, they didn't? 17 How do you deal with that kind of 18 situation? 19 A: I -- I -- I have a hard time 20 answering such a thing because I know that I have 21 relatives in the States side that live on a reserve 22 that's called Gun Lake. 23 The issue of guns has always been there, I 24 guess, and you've seen old documents where people today 25 were asking, you know, to -- to have those specialists
501 there to repair their guns, because they were -- on 2 behalf of the -- the Crown Loyalists. I don't know where 3 those things have changed and, you know, I don't -- I 4 don't look at my lifestyle as laying around having a gun 5 to -- to be able to survive. 6 I know it helps and I don't -- I don't 7 view myself as a natural born killer to some of the shows 8 you see on TV as to how weapons like that seem to be 9 brought up as to, you know, like there's so much things 10 that I seen telephone -- or television broadcasts of what 11 went on at the Camp and what went on in Gustafson Lake. 12 It just seemed like you -- you can't 13 control those things. It's out of our hands. People put 14 guns in our hands down there and we never had guns. I -- 15 I don't know. 16 Q: Those are my questions, Mr. George. 17 After much hesitation, I want to still ask you, is there 18 anything further you want to tell the Commissioner? If 19 the short answer is, "no", it's "no". 20 A: I know that there's -- there's always 21 that chance to -- to negotiate these things, I guess, 22 and, I don't know, maybe that's where the future lies, I 23 think. If those things could happen that -- I know that 24 there's enough legal experts in this room, I guess, that 25 can help piece those things back together and I think if
511 the province is going to adopt those responsibilities 2 that were at a federal level, maybe that's part of the 3 mechanism, I don't know, I'm -- I'm lost right now. 4 Q: Mr. George, I thank you. And those 5 are my questions, thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much. I think there's some re-examination. You're 8 going to do it, Mr. Millar? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. I have just a 10 few questions. 11 12 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: One issue I wanted to just try to 14 clear up was the issue of the charges and -- that arose 15 as a result of the events in June of 1995. 16 And you told Mr. Worme that you were 17 convicted after a trial. You told Ms. Jones the same 18 thing but also in an answer to Ms. Jones you, I believe 19 as part of a lengthier answer, said that you pleaded 20 guilty. 21 And I'm just trying to understand, did you 22 plead guilty or was there a trial or do you recall? 23 A: I remember I -- pretty sure that I 24 been to the courthouse on several occasions, that I 25 remember Geoffrey Howes (phonetic) told me, he said
521 that -- 2 Q: You don't need to tell us what 3 Geoffrey Howes said to you about the advice that he gave 4 you. But the -- 5 A: In -- in short terms he just said 6 that they're proposing twenty-five dollars ($25) each, 7 for each of those charges and he said I think it's going 8 to cheaper on -- on you to just, you know, plead guilty 9 to them and you can go. 10 Like that was the -- the thing because I 11 basically wanted to argue that that was my land and he 12 didn't -- he didn't say that in a -- in a roundabout way 13 he basically told me that I couldn't afford it. 14 Q: But the -- so that there was a 15 negotiation and a plea, is that your understanding? 16 A: I basically told him that, yeah, I'd 17 go and pay the fine. 18 Q: Now another question, Ms. Jones 19 asked you about on the evening of September the 6th, when 20 you were at the area that you built the -- the fire, just 21 outside of -- on the north side of the built-up area. 22 Do you recall telling us about that fire? 23 A: Yeah, I recall. 24 Q: And Ms. Jones asked you a question 25 about whether or not you lit up the police officers who
531 were on Army Camp Road. Do you recall being asked that 2 question. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I think you said no. The 5 question I have, you were at the point as -- in the dump 6 truck at this point when you built this fire? 7 A: Yeah, I was driving the dump truck at 8 that time. 9 Q: And was the dump truck equipped with 10 a spotlight. 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you own or have in your 13 possession that evening, September 6th, a spotlight, a 14 portable spotlight? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And the -- you told My Friend Mr. 17 Ross about the two hundred (200) by two hundred (200) 18 metre area in the rifle range that there had been a 19 negotiation with the Department of National Offence 20 about. 21 Can you point out on Exhibit P -- a copy 22 of P-140 or it's also P-40 that's on the screen, the area 23 that you're talking about and also mark it on the copy of 24 P-140 in front of you? 25 A: I know the -- the area that -- this
541 was the area that -- that was received, that was along 2 the creek there. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And it was on -- it would be the -- 5 this side of that creek; that's where the people were, 6 like, there -- there is a -- there is, like, a driveway, 7 that's where they -- they drove in, over here. 8 But this is where they had the Camp. And 9 that part of the Camp there was -- that's the spot where 10 I went the -- towards the evening on May 6, after I got 11 home from work. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: And I remember that that's the -- 14 that's the area where that fence is, by the -- there's a 15 stone quarry right there. There's a driveway, it's still 16 there today; that's where they -- they cut the chain and 17 drove in and this is where they set up their Camp. 18 And it was this area here that, I 19 remember, that was the area that they -- they had been 20 given the -- another paper by the Military, telling them 21 to leave. 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: And I don't know their exact timing 24 of that because I was at work. I remember seeing it aft 25 -- after work when I got there and the -- the letter that
551 come from the Military, I can't recall when that was 2 brought, because I remember there was -- there was a 3 letter that was -- that was given, stating that there was 4 a two hundred (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre area 5 given to them to -- to Camp. 6 Q: And, but I'm -- what I'm -- the -- 7 initially the -- the occupiers went onto the Army Camp, 8 and we've heard this from others, at the east end of the 9 Army Camp through the gate that's near the stone quarry. 10 A: Yeah. That's right there. 11 Q: And perhaps you could mark that on 12 the Exhibit 140 in front of you, and mark -- 13 THE REGISTRAR: Number 5. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: -- it would be a Number 5, Mr. 17 George, if you could just put an arrow where they -- 18 where you -- the approximate area of the gate is, where 19 you're pointing on the map, and put a Number 5 beside it. 20 And the initial Camp that you went to on 21 the evening of May the 6th, was just to the east of, I 22 think it's called Mud Creek? 23 A: Yeah. It's right there, I think 24 it's -- 25 Q: And could you mark a Number 6, mark
561 where that was on Exhibit P140 and put a Number 6 beside 2 that, sir. 3 A: I've got a Number 4 right there, 4 right now. 5 Q: Oh, have we identified that before? 6 Perhaps we did. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Number 4 is the steel 8 bridge. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Put a Number 6 right beside the 13 Number 4. And put a circle around the Number 6, please. 14 And, as I understand it, the Military gave 15 a piece of paper to the people who were at that area, 16 saying that they were trespassers -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- in May. Now, the piece of paper 19 that, we will have to locate it, but that piece of paper 20 you told My Friend, Mr. Ross, about, about the two 21 hundred (200) by two hundred (200) metres, where -- where 22 were the two hundred (200) by two hundred (200) metres 23 located? What was your understanding? 24 A: I -- I myself, I was never really 25 given a staked-out area. I know that that's where they
571 went in and that's where the Camp was, and like, with 2 myself, I was over here to the old homestead. 3 Q: I appreciate that and we've heard 4 evidence that other members of your family were there as 5 well. And the area you're pointing to, I think you've -- 6 you've noted that already on the, where the old homestead 7 was, have you noted that on Exhibit P140? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Could you mark a Number 7 on, 10 with a Number 7, where they -- where you moved to after 11 you moved on to the Camp and where your family's Camp 12 was. 13 But the two hundred (200) by two hundred 14 (200) metre area that, as I understand, from what you 15 told Mr. Ross, people were permitted to Camp on. Do you 16 know, can you tell me what your understanding of where 17 that two hundred (200) by two hundred (200) metre area 18 was? 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: You don't know? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 23 questions then. Thank you very much, Mr. George, for 24 coming and assisting the Commission by giving your 25 evidence. And it's been -- you've been here for a little
581 over two (2) days and I wish to thank you very much for 2 coming. 3 A: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much, Mr. George. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 7 8 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 11 would be a good place for us to take a morning break. 12 You're moving to the next witness now, aren't you. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, we are. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 15 shorter day. We're stopping at 3:30 so I think this 16 would be a good point to take a break and call the next 17 witness. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:10 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:28 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
591 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 morning. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 5 its next witness, Carolyn George. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Please state your name in 7 full. 8 THE WITNESS: Sha Kazhin Nimke Kwe 9 Mandoka. I am also known as Carolyn George and I reside 10 at Aazhoodena, the former Army Camp Base. 11 12 CAROLYN GEORGE, Sworn: 13 14 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: I understand that you have a 16 nickname? 17 A: Cully. 18 Q: C-U-L-L-Y? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And what is your date of 21 birth? 22 A: November 2nd, 1950. 23 Q: What are the names of your parents? 24 A: Their full names? 25 Q: Yes. As far as you can.
601 A: Reginald Ransford George Sr. and 2 Genevieve Pauline George nee Rogers. 3 Q: Were either of -- either or both of 4 your parents from the Stoney Point -- the former Stoney 5 Point Reserve? 6 A: My father was from Stoney Point. 7 Q: And can you also tell us the name of 8 your grandparents? 9 A: Robert and Laura George. Those are 10 my paternal grandparents. My maternal grandparents are 11 Fred and Edna Rogers. 12 Q: Thank you. I understand that your 13 paternal grandmother's maiden name was Dunbar? 14 A: Yes. Laura Dunbar. 15 Q: And was your paternal grandfather 16 also from the former Stoney Point Reserve? 17 A: Yes, he was. 18 Q: And I don't know about your 19 grandmother. Was she also? 20 A: No. She -- 21 Q: All right. 22 A: -- she was from another Reserve. 23 Q: Thank you. Your maternal 24 grandparents, what reserves -- reserve were they from? 25 A: Sarnia Reserve.
611 Q: Do you have any children? 2 A: Four (4). 3 Q: Can you name them in order of age? 4 Starting with your eldest. 5 A: Candice Erika -- do you want their 6 present last names or? 7 Q: Sure, that would be fine. 8 A: She's Myers. Candice Erika Myers, 9 Claudette Joan Bressette, Glenn Carlyle Bressette, and 10 Jodi Gail George. 11 Q: All right. And is your son, Glen 12 Carlyle Bressette, is he also known as J.R.? 13 A: Yes, he is. 14 Q: Would you also give me the names of 15 your siblings, commencing with your eldest? 16 A: Okay, eldest is Reggie George -- or 17 do you want his whole name? 18 Q: First and last is sufficient. 19 A: Okay. Reginald George and then I 20 would be next and then there's Sam -- I mean Maynard 21 George, Pierre George, Joan Price. Then there would be 22 Pamela George and Laverne George. I'm just trying to 23 think of their real names; they all have nicknames. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you. And would you also 25 name your deceased siblings, please?
621 A: I had a older brother Michael that 2 died when he was six (6) months old from pneumonia. I 3 had a older sister who died in a car accident in 1969 4 and -- 5 Q: I'm sorry, what was her name? 6 A: Karen Gail -- okay, now I forgot to 7 give her name. 8 Q: That's all right. 9 A: Okay and that was Karen Gail killed 10 in that car accident, in 1969. My brother Peter died, I 11 think it was around '79, something like that, I'm not too 12 sure. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Be 1970 -- no, it's later that that. 15 Q: That's all right. I'm more concerned 16 about the names. 17 A: And then Dudley -- Dudley George. 18 Q: All right. And also known as Anthony 19 O'Brien George? Thank you. 20 A: That's his -- yeah, that's his real 21 name. I give his nickname this time. 22 Q: No, that's fine. Thank you. Where 23 is your current residence? 24 A: Aazhoodena, Stoney Point, the former 25 Army -- Army Base.
631 Q: Can you tell us also, where your 2 childhood residence was? 3 A: I lived on Kettle Point for about 4 four (4) years and then my parents moved to Sarnia and we 5 lived in Sarnia for approximately ten (10) years and then 6 moved back to Kettle Point for a couple of years and then 7 -- then I got married and my parents, by then, moved to 8 Forest. 9 Q: All right. What was your residence 10 immediately prior to moving into the Army Camp base? 11 A: I was living at Kettle Point. 12 Q: And how long had you lived at Kettle 13 Point during that time period? 14 A: I'm trying to add -- about thirty 15 (30) years. 16 Q: Thirty (30) years? All right. And 17 did your father ever talk to you about the Stoney Point 18 reserve lands? 19 A: Yes, he told me about them. He told 20 me a lot about when he lived there about how they used to 21 go cut wood and he'd have to take the horses out to haul 22 the wood back in. He told me about how deep the snow 23 used to get then, where they couldn't get out the door. 24 But they -- and he told me, too, about going with my 25 grandparents to the market to take things that they had
641 made to sell. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: My grandfather used to make axe 4 handles and other woodwork and things and my grandmother 5 made baskets, she done lace and quilts. I don't ever 6 recall them, you know like they had gardens and stuff, 7 but I don't think they ever took their produce there. 8 Q: Okay. Now, when did he start talking 9 to you about his life at Stoney Point? 10 A: When I was young. I -- I don't know, 11 maybe I was asking him questions and stuff, but he would 12 -- you know, might say that he used to live there and how 13 they had to move away when the war came along. And -- 14 and that he was told that they would be able to go home 15 after the war. And he said he joined up the Army so that 16 he could help get the war over, so he'd be able to move 17 home. 18 Q: And did he tell you what happened 19 when it was that the war was over? Was he allowed to 20 move home? 21 A: No. He -- he purchased a house from 22 my uncle Tom who was also in the war, had a war bride and 23 they went back to England and my dad got that house from 24 them. But it was eventually too small and my dad worked 25 in Sarnia by then, and it was just easier for him to get
651 back and forth to -- to work. And -- and besides, that's 2 where my mom was from and I think she liked being close 3 to her family. 4 Q: All right. Did your father ever 5 express to you any regrets regarding what had happened to 6 the Stoney Point reserve? 7 A: He'd always be -- like when he spoke 8 about Stoney Point it was really wistful that -- you 9 know, like, I guess I was about thirteen (13) at the time 10 and -- you know, like, really sad, like -- like he had no 11 hope of ever getting the land back even though they had 12 promised to give it back. 13 You know, like to him it wasn't looking 14 hopeful at all. 15 Q: All right. And you said that your 16 father joined up with the -- the Canadian Army, and where 17 did he meet your mother? 18 A: I don't know where he met my Mom for 19 sure, but I know they were both stationed at the 20 Ipperwash. My mother was in the Army also and I don't 21 have the exact dates and everything, but... 22 Q: So your father and mother were 23 stationed at Camp Ipperwash during the war? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And -- all right.
661 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: My mother was also the -- one (1) of 4 the youngest ones to sign up for the Army also. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: Like she went to try and sign up and 7 they wouldn't let her right away, because she wasn't 8 exactly old enough, so. 9 Q: And were your parents, both of them, 10 stationed at Camp Ipperwash for the duration of the war? 11 A: I don't believe so. 12 Q: Do you know where they went? What 13 their jobs were? 14 A: Well, yeah, okay. You mean the -- 15 their stay. I know my dad went to Petawawa. I don't 16 know if I'm -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- pronouncing that right. 19 Q: Petawawa, yes. 20 A: Yeah, I know he was up there for a 21 while and I know that he -- he was going to be shipped 22 out and my grandmother became ill, and so he had a pass 23 to go home and see her. 24 And during that time the -- the war 25 overseas had stopped but he -- but he was going to --
671 when he went back he was going to be shipped out to where 2 it was not quite done with. And then that got over with, 3 so he actually didn't have to see any action, as they 4 call it. 5 Q: Any combat? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Fair enough, okay. Thank you. And 8 did your father ever talk to you, as a child or teenager, 9 about any burial grounds? 10 A: He did take us in there to see the -- 11 the burial grounds as they are on the map today. You 12 know, the ones that we use today. 13 Q: Is that in Camp Ipperwash? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But, like, he used to take us in 17 there and -- and I seen, you know, like when I was 18 younger that there were stones there and they were in 19 good shape and stuff at that time. 20 Q: Was this prior to, or after -- oh, I 21 guess this would be after the war, wouldn't it? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And was there a fence around 24 the burial ground, that you recall? 25 A: I don't recall.
681 Q: All right. Did your father ever talk 2 to you about the lands that were the Ipperwash Provincial 3 Park, when you were growing up? 4 A: No. I didn't really question a lot 5 because it, like -- he didn't lead you to ask more 6 questions. He was, like -- like sad that he wasn't 7 there, I -- I believe, and it would just upset him. 8 Q: Sad that he wasn't where? 9 A: Able to live on his own reserve. 10 Q: Okay. And by -- which you mean -- 11 which property? 12 A: Stoney Point. 13 Q: And would you just define that for me 14 please; what properties comprised Stoney Point that you 15 are -- you're referring to? 16 A: The -- the former Camp Ipperwash. 17 Q: Yes. Okay. Thank you. 18 A: The land expropriated for the war. 19 Q: Right. Thank you. I just want to be 20 clear that that's what we're talking about. Thank you. 21 When did your -- let me ask you this. Did 22 your father provide you with any traditional teachings in 23 relation to burial grounds and practices? 24 A: No, he didn't tell me a lot about 25 them.
691 Q: Did he pass on any traditional 2 knowledge with respect to herbs or medicines, in relation 3 to the -- to the Stoney Point Reserve lands? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: Or your mother for that matter? 6 A: It was more my grandpa and my uncle 7 and -- it would be them. They were -- 8 Q: Your grandparents? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And what traditional knowledge did 11 they pass on to you in relation to the -- the former 12 Stoney Point Reserve? 13 A: There was my maternal grandparents -- 14 or, yeah, my maternal grandparents -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- and then an uncle on my mom's side 17 that -- I witnessed them using different herbs for 18 different things that were needed to be done. 19 Q: Okay. And they were -- were they 20 resident on the Sarnia Reserve? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Thank you. When did your 23 father die? 24 A: 1985, I'm pretty sure. 25 Q: And where -- where is he buried?
701 A: My dad is buried at Kettle Point. 2 Q: Did your family hunt when you were 3 growing up? 4 A: My brother did. 5 Q: Which brother? 6 A: Reg -- Reggie. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I call him, "Reggie". 9 Q: All right. And did you ever go 10 hunting with your brother Reggie? 11 A: He'd let me sometimes as long as I 12 would clean his squirrels and rabbits and things. I had 13 small hands that would fit inside. 14 Q: And did you resume -- or did you ever 15 hunt yourself, as a child or teenager? 16 A: No, they thought I was too noisy. 17 Q: You were -- 18 A: Too noisy. 19 Q: Noisy? Okay. 20 A: To scare everything away. 21 Q: And did you ever hunt as an ad -- as 22 an adult? 23 A: No. I just figured if I went along 24 then they would be teaching me more work to do. 25 Q: Wasn't cleaning your thing?
711 A: Have you ever cleaned a deer? 2 Q: I can't say that I have. All right. 3 I take it that wasn't your favourite job? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Fair enough. 6 A: It's easier to cook. 7 Q: Fair enough. And did any of -- of 8 your other sisters or brothers hunt when you were growing 9 up, aside from Reggie? 10 A: I'm sure my brother Reggie took them 11 -- different ones at different times because once I 12 wasn't cleaning his game he had to have somebody else. 13 Q: All right. Now, based on your own -- 14 well, did you ever own or possess a gun or rifle of any 15 type between 1993 and 1995? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Have you ever owned a gun? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Based on your personal knowledge, was 20 your brother Dudley a hunter? 21 A: On my personal knowledge, no. But 22 I've heard that, you know, like he did actually get a 23 deer. Well, that's quite a feat. 24 Q: Yes, no, I appreciate that. All 25 right. And you never saw him hunt yourself?
721 A: No. 2 Q: All right. And you said you heard 3 that he did hunt and he got a deer. Based on your -- 4 your knowledge, when he did start to hunt? Do you know 5 that? 6 A: It would have been when he lived at 7 Stoney Point. 8 Q: All right. So after he moved onto 9 the --the Army Camp lands? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Thank you. Prior to 1993, were you 12 involved in any efforts to reclaim any of the Stoney 13 Point lands? 14 A: Not really. 15 Q: Why not? 16 A: I had a family and my duty was to be 17 raising the kids. 18 Q: All right. And at that time, were 19 you also employed outside of the family? 20 A: In '93? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Yes, I was a custodian with Lambton 23 County Board of Education. 24 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was 25 your brother Dudley involved in any efforts to reclaim
731 the Stoney Point lands prior to 1993? 2 A: Not to my knowledge. 3 Q: All right. Were you aware of any 4 efforts to reclaim the Stoney Point lands by members of 5 the Kettle and Stony Point Band prior to 1993? 6 A: Could you repeat that? 7 Q: Were you aware of efforts by others 8 to reclaim the Stoney Point lands prior to 1993? 9 A: I know that Kettle Point received 10 some money for the lands but it -- just some 11 compensation, not actually to obtain the land. 12 Q: All right. And do you recall whether 13 that occurred in the early 1908's? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Were -- were you qualified or 16 eligible to vote for the -- the compensation offer at 17 that time? 18 A: At that time, they brought a petition 19 around for people to sign that they wanted -- they had to 20 have enough signatures, so that the people would be given 21 the money instead of the Band putting it to their use or 22 whatever. 23 And I didn't sign it, because that was 24 supposed to be Stoney Point land money for that. 25 Q: Okay. Right. To your knowledge, was
741 the -- was the compensation offer ultimately accepted by 2 the Band? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And as a result, did you receive any 5 compensation, any share of that compensation? 6 A: Yes. It was given out to everyone. 7 Q: All right. And was that -- do you 8 remember how much that was? 9 A: Not enough. 10 Q: Okay. All right. Were you aware of 11 the peace march to Ottawa? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And is that something that you 14 participated in? 15 A: No, I stayed behind to watch the 16 Camp. 17 Q: All right. Sorry, watch the what? 18 A: Where we were living at, on the 19 ranges. In '93. 20 Q: Okay. Were you -- were you part of 21 the initial group who walked onto and took residence up 22 on the rifle ranges at Camp Ipperwash in May of 1993? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And can I ask you why not? 25 A: I hadn't heard anything about it.
751 Q: All right. Did you subsequently 2 learn of it? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And as a result, did you at anytime 5 move onto the rifle ranges? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you live there full time? 8 A: Basically, yeah. 9 Q: Did you -- were you maintaining 10 another residence at the same time? 11 A: The residence in Kettle Point. 12 Q: All right. Do you recall 13 approximately when it was that you moved onto the rifle 14 ranges? 15 A: It would have been late June of '93 16 or July. 17 Q: Did you stay over for the -- the 18 winter months as well? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. And did you live back at 21 your house at Kettle Point at that time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So between 1993 and the summer of 24 1995, what months of the year did you actually live at 25 the rifle ranges?
761 A: Only in '93 I lived out on the ranges 2 til I guess October when it got really cold out and wet, 3 and I became ill. 4 Q: Okay. And in '94? 5 A: I'd only stay occasionally. 6 Q: Stayed occasionally? 7 A: Well, go down and stay overnight. 8 Q: Yeah. And how about '95 up -- up to 9 I'd say June of '95? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You didn't go there very often or you 12 didn't go there at all? 13 A: Probably not at all. My daughter was 14 pregnant at the time and I was working full time and -- 15 Q: All right, fair enough. And were you 16 still working as a custodian? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you ever bring your -- any of 19 your younger children over to the -- the rifle ranges 20 when you'd either -- either initially when you stayed for 21 a few months or afterwards? 22 A: By that time they were -- they were 23 old enough to make up their own minds or to decide. If 24 they wanted to come over, they knew I was there, they 25 could come and visit if they wanted, their decision.
771 Q: All right. 2 A: I -- no, like, I took them over to 3 visit but a lot of times they went on their own. 4 Q: All right. Were you ever told by 5 anyone either at -- from the Military Base or from the 6 Ontario Provincial Police that you were trespassing on 7 those lands? 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: Were you ever asked to leave? 10 A: I don't think so. 11 Q: Were you present during the night of 12 an alleged helicopter shooting? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Were you present when the members of 15 the Ontario Provincial Police Service executed search 16 warrants at the rifle ranges? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Can you describe what you saw? 19 A: I seen the police coming right across 20 -- well, okay. This was the range just towards the road 21 and then the cops just came like one (1) big wave right 22 across the whole area, and then going through the -- the 23 trailers. And if someone wasn't -- wasn't there to open 24 them up they would just kind of rip them open and go 25 through everything.
781 Q: Did you have a permanent or a semi 2 permanent resident at the rifles during this search? 3 A: No, I was staying in my cousin's 4 trailer. 5 Q: Which cousin? 6 A: Cathryn (phonetic), Cathryn. 7 Q: Cathryn? 8 A: George. 9 Q: George. Okay. And was her trailer 10 searched in your presence? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you just tell me did -- did 13 any police off -- was she there? 14 A: No. 15 Q: But you were there? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did any police officer shown you any 18 paper or a search warrant giving them authority to do 19 this? 20 A: They didn't show me any. 21 Q: Now do you have any direct 22 interaction with any of the Military people from the Base 23 while you were at the rifle ranges? 24 A: What do you mean by direct? 25 Q: Any -- any verbal exchanges?
791 A: Maybe one (1) day. 2 Q: Can you tell me about the one (1) 3 day? 4 A: There was some guys there drinking 5 and one (1) guy threw a beer bottle at the patrol going 6 by and he hit the back tire and the MP got all excited 7 and he says, You were trying to hit me and I just went 8 over there and told him that if he was trying to hit you, 9 he would have hit you. He's got a good aim. 10 Q: And -- and who was the person who 11 threw it? 12 A: Stewart. 13 Q: And do you know what gave rise to 14 that; why he did it? 15 A: I think he was just a little under 16 the influence. 17 Q: Okay. And did anything else come of 18 this incident? 19 A: Not that I really know of. 20 Q: All right. And did you at some point 21 have a conversation with a -- a cadet? 22 A: Yeah. I was sitting out by the fire 23 one (1) night and he just kind of came up and scared the 24 heck right out me, like right out of the darkness. And 25 he was telling us that the Army was telling him not to
801 come over there to, you know like don't -- don't go past 2 the tree line; that the natives over there couldn't speak 3 English. 4 And they had a whole bunch of arms and 5 they would never be seen again. The only time they'd be 6 seen is floating on the water somewhere. 7 Q: The cadet said that? 8 A: Yeah, that's what they were told, 9 yeah. 10 Q: And do you remember the name of the 11 cadet? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you remember what year this 14 occurred? 15 A: It'd be '93. 16 Q: And -- all right. So, it's somewhere 17 between the summer and -- and fall; do you remember? 18 A: It would be summer. 19 Q: Summer? Okay. And did you make any 20 response to the cadet with respect to this information he 21 told you? 22 A: I told him I was talking in English 23 to him and, No, we don't have no arms and I told them 24 that they were probably telling them that just to scare 25 them to stay away from us.
811 Q: Were you aware of there being any 2 arrangements in place or an understanding that the 3 aboriginal people would have an area -- one (1) area of 4 land and the Military would have another? 5 A: I just know that, you know they -- 6 they road by on their patrols routinely and they didn't 7 come right up and tell us anything there. It's, you know 8 like, they just went on their little route and -- 9 Q: All right. And so that was the -- 10 the majority of your contact with the Military people? 11 And did you witness any significant -- any other 12 significant interactions, as between any of the Occupants 13 and any of the Military personnel? 14 A: LG Day. 15 Q: Sorry? 16 A: LG Day. 17 Q: Can you tell me what that stands for? 18 A: Lieutenant Governor -- it's -- comes 19 in and inspects the cadets. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: We knew the cadets all marched around 22 the parade square and that the Lieutenant Governor would 23 be there and all the cadets would be graduating and all 24 their parents and everything and we just said we should 25 let them know we're here and we took signs that said,
821 "Welcome to Stoney Point." And me and another girl were 2 dressed in native attire and carrying our banners and as 3 soon as the end of the parade went by we joined right in 4 and went right around the parade square with them and -- 5 Q: You joined the -- the march, so to 6 speak? 7 A: Yeah, right behind them and -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Welcome to Stoney Point. 10 Q: All right. And did anything come of 11 that? Was there any reaction by the Military? 12 A: Not a lot. 13 Q: Not a lot? Did anyone tell you you 14 should get out of the parade square? 15 A: Well, before we started, an MP came 16 over and he was going to try and take the banner. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: But he stepped on my foot and I just 19 said, hey that's assault, you assaulted me and one (1) of 20 the other guys come up and just asked the MP to leave the 21 lady alone and he backed away and let us go. 22 Q: All right. How many people, 23 approximately, from your group participated in this 24 march? 25 A: Me and Marcia were the first ones,
831 so, I didn't really look behind me to see who was behind 2 me but I'm -- I know there was another banner. 3 Q: Okay. And you say you and Marcia, 4 which -- is that Marcia Simon? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And what -- you remember 7 what year that occurred? 8 A: '93. 9 Q: Okay. Thank you. 10 A: That was the last year they had 11 cadets there then. 12 Q: Right. During the times that you 13 were at the Army Camp in or around the rifle ranges, did 14 you ever see any firearms at the Army Camp at any time? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Were you aware that some of the 17 occupants hunted at the Army Camp during this time? 18 A: No. 19 Q: I think you said to me earlier that - 20 - that you became aware that Dudley hunted -- 21 A: Oh, yeah, that -- you know, I wasn't 22 right there when they were doing any of that, so. 23 Q: You didn't see it, but you aware of 24 it? 25 A: Yeah, that they hunted to -- to have
841 food. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough. Are you 3 aware of what the decision-making structure at the Army 4 Camp was between '93 and -- and the spring of '95? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Were you present at a birthday party 7 that was apparently held at the Army Camp for -- for 8 Dudley George? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yeah, yeah. 13 Q: All right. And what do you recall 14 about that event? 15 A: That Marcia had written a tribute to 16 Dudley and it was also a happy birthday to Cliff. 17 Q: Okay. And do you know what the 18 tribute was about? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Offhand, no. 23 Q: Can you describe for us, what your 24 relationship with Dudley was during this time period? 25 A: There -- there isn't very many of us
851 left in our family. Like, our parents have died and 2 there's only a few of us kids and some of us were closer 3 to each other and since Dudley was living at Stoney Point 4 and they asked me, do you want to come and check it out, 5 and I figured it'd be good to be there and my brother was 6 there. 7 So I figured it would be okay and there'd 8 be somebody to help me out if I needed help and, you 9 know, like from -- like from -- in '93 was when they 10 asked me to be there and -- and I was very close to 11 Dudley. 12 Dudley had stayed at my place different 13 times and I was close to him. 14 Q: And would you describe -- describe -- 15 how would you describe Dudley George? 16 A: Dudley was a person that could always 17 make you feel good, feel happy that you were around him. 18 He would make you laugh. 19 If there was something really serious that 20 -- otherwise everybody would be, like, bawling their eyes 21 out, he'd come in and say something just to make you 22 laugh to get the mood lighter and just generally make you 23 feel better. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. All right. 25 A: And he was always willing to help
861 out. I mean, not willing, but he would and I just 2 enjoyed being around him. 3 Q: Okay. And would you describe his 4 relationship with your children? 5 A: He was very close to my kids. He -- 6 he was almost like a father figure because by then I had 7 divorced and so I, like, I was the only parent there and 8 I was the one who had to lay down the law and stuff and 9 if my kids were upset or something they would talk to 10 Dudley and Dudley would help smooth it out and help them 11 get through a lot of their problems in their lives and it 12 was like they -- they would go to him if there was a 13 problem. 14 Q: Now, were you part of the group who 15 initially entered the built-up area on or about July the 16 29th, 1995? 17 A: No. 18 Q: At some point did you move 19 permanently into the built-up area? 20 A: The next day when I knew that they 21 had moved into the built-up area I went down there and 22 there was no more Military around and my brother Pierre 23 was moving into one (1) building and I says, Okay, fine. 24 If you're living there, I'll -- I'll take 25 that building so I can just be across the street and
871 Carrie (phonetic) and Edie can go over there and we'd be 2 just right there, but that reminded me, like, I had been 3 at work a couple of weeks before that -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- and I had a dream that I -- I was 6 in a new place, like -- like I had moved and I was 7 comfortable in there and it had white walls and 8 everything. Well, not white, beige, and then I -- I went 9 to work and I told the girls at work. I says, You know, 10 I almost think I'm moving, but I don't have no plans to 11 move. 12 I had a dream, like, I'm -- I'm -- I've 13 had these dreams before where, okay that means I'm moving 14 and I told them that and but then after this happened on 15 July 30th, I went down there and the building I picked 16 out, I had never ever been in before and I went inside 17 and it had the -- the beige walls. 18 Q: Hmm. 19 A: And so I moved in and went back to 20 work the next day and told the girls, Guess what? I 21 moved. 22 Q: All right. And you said your brother 23 Pierre also moved in -- into the barracks area? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And any of your other brothers or
881 sisters? 2 A: Well, Dudley was already living down 3 there, but I saved the building next to me for him. 4 Q: All right. And do -- do you recall 5 what the -- the names of those buildings were? What -- 6 can you identify those for us? 7 A: In the building numbers? 8 Q: Sure. Yeah that would be -- 9 A: Buildings -- I was in 117, Dudley was 10 in 116 and these are like, little trailers. It's not one 11 (1) of the "U" buildings. It -- it -- there was a "U" 12 building there, but it -- it had burnt down and they 13 replaced it with trailers and -- 14 Q: Okay. And Pierre? Remember what 15 number his building was? 16 A: No, but it's right across the way 17 from me, the old fire hall? 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. And you say that 19 there were no further Military personnel at the -- at the 20 built-up area once you moved in? 21 A: No, there weren't. 22 Q: All right. And you said that you 23 were asked -- were -- were you asked to move in? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No, you just went down and -- and did
891 it? 2 A: Well, they're not here no more. I'm 3 going to move in and we've got -- I'd have a place to 4 stay now. 5 Q: All right. And were there any 6 persons who were not from either the Kettle or Stoney 7 Point communities who took up residence at the built-up 8 area, in the summer of 1995? 9 A: I'm trying to think. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I guess it was mainly the ones that, 14 you know like, had been out on the ranges. I wouldn't be 15 able to say definitely if there was other ones had moved 16 in for sure. 17 Q: But do you recall, for example, 18 whether a Wayne Pine moved in? 19 A: I remember seeing him there but that 20 doesn't mean he moved in. 21 Q: Okay. Did -- did you know who he 22 was? 23 A: I would have probably been introduced 24 to him. 25 Q: Can you just tell -- where was he
901 from? 2 A: I can't help you there. 3 Q: Okay. Do you know why he was there? 4 A: If he had a specific reason, I wasn't 5 aware of it. 6 Q: Did either or both of the Jewel 7 brothers, Russ and Les, were they at the built-up area in 8 the summer of '95 after the move in? 9 A: They were around there. 10 Q: Okay. And do you know where they 11 were from? 12 A: Not really. 13 Q: Do you know why they were there? 14 A: Their sister made a lot of donations; 15 that's what I know. 16 Q: Okay. Fair enough. All right. Now, 17 what were your objectives in moving from Kettle Point to 18 the built-up area, in 1995? 19 A: Well, one objective was I needed a 20 place to live. And since there was no more Military 21 there, I felt I was able to move home. I should have 22 been able to grow up there. 23 Q: And once you did move there, did you 24 -- did you have any plans or, you know, hopes for this 25 community?
911 A: Very many. 2 Q: Can you tell us about those? 3 A: Well, I'd like to see, you know like, 4 Stoney Point up and running as a full functioning 5 reserve, as any other reserve in Canada. 6 We -- we -- you know, like, we should have 7 everything there that any other reserve has. It was all 8 there before the land was taken. 9 Q: All right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Can you describe the way the 14 community at the built-up area operated on a day-to-day 15 business over -- over -- basically over August and early 16 September of '95? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Other than, well, I was doing a lot 21 of the cooking, you know. You get up in the morning, go 22 over and you start cooking and the people would gather in 23 the kitchen and have coffee and I was more into making 24 sure that there was food and the place cleaned up and not 25 into so much of how the place was run.
921 Q: All right. Okay. And did you -- did 2 you attend at any -- were there any meetings at which you 3 attended which discussed how the community should make 4 decisions and operate on a day-to-day basis? 5 A: I didn't really attend. 6 Q: All right. Now, at any time between 7 July 30th and September 3rd, did anyone, to your 8 knowledge, attempt to tell you that you were trespassing 9 or that you shouldn't be at that area? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Not really, I felt it was my right to 14 be there. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: That was my -- my home. 17 Q: Are you aware as to whether or not 18 there was any attempts made by the chief and Band council 19 at the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation to encourage 20 you to leave? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I heard they came there one time with 25 some papers and stuff but I never seen any of the papers
931 and I was asked one time, by Tom Bressette, why I was 2 there and I just told him that's where I'm from. 3 Q: All right. Do you remember when that 4 conversation occurred? Was it before or after the 5 occupation? 6 A: Oh, I think it was still when I was 7 living on Kettle Point, because he asked me what I was 8 doing down at Stoney Point. 9 Q: Okay, so this was sometime between 10 '93 and '95, before the occupation of the barracks? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. Now was there a -- a 13 warrior society at Stoney Point when you -- when you 14 arrived? 15 A: A warrior society? 16 Q: A warrior society. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: What do you call a warrior society? 21 Q: We've heard -- we've heard some 22 evidence from prior witnesses in respect of their being a 23 society, and they've given evidence about teachings by 24 Marcia Simon and -- and what that meant to them. 25 So, is that something that -- were you
941 familiar with these efforts? 2 A: To me, most natives are warriors, and 3 whether they're living up to their duties and 4 responsibilities would determine whether they are a 5 warrior or not. 6 Q: Okay. And could you share with us 7 your understanding of what those responsibilities, 8 typically, are? 9 A: Protecting the lands, returning the 10 lands, protecting the women and the children, public 11 speaking for the good of the people, ensuring that 12 there's food for the people. 13 Q: And what are the responsibilities of 14 the women in the community? 15 A: Cooking, watching the children, 16 teaching the young ones roles and responsibilities, their 17 duties. The, like, boys, I see them staying with their 18 Mothers for a little while and then off they go with 19 their parents where the women they teach the children. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: You know, like cooking and cleaning 22 and gardening and sewing and -- 23 Q: All right. And was that a role that 24 you took on in this community? 25 A: Yeah, I guess so. Like I had beads
951 and stuff that I was teaching some to do beadwork and I 2 was doing a lot of cooking. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: A-- and I had my daughter there with 5 her new baby. She was three (3) weeks old then and her 6 husband was working long hours and I went to see how she 7 was doing and she just start crying and so you know, I 8 couldn't leave her there, so I took -- took her with me. 9 Q: Okay. So that was -- that took up a 10 lot of your time over that summer, did it? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Now, I'm just wondering, 13 was there any noticeable police presence at or around the 14 Army Camp that you saw between July 30th and September 15 the 3rd, of 1995? 16 A: Well police are always there, always. 17 So you almost get to the point where they're there so 18 often it's like they're part of the landscape. 19 Q: And when you say they were there, can 20 you just give me a sense of -- of how it was that they 21 were there? What -- what do you mean by "a presence"? 22 A: It was like they were watching us, 23 seeing what we were doing and they didn't really bother 24 us a lot right, after July 3rd yes I would say. 25 You know, like, I could still come and go
961 to, like, I was still going to work then. 2 Q: Okay. All right, so they were 3 around, but they weren't disturbing you? 4 A: No more than the usual. 5 Q: Well was there any unusual activity, 6 then? 7 A: Not -- not a lot then. 8 Q: All right. And did you notice any 9 police presence down at the beach front area during that 10 time frame, July 30th to September 3rd? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you see any -- any 13 interactions or altercations involving your brother 14 Dudley and police? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Were -- were you part of the group 17 who initially entered into the Ipperwash Provincial Park 18 on Monday, September the 4th, 1995? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Everybody else was going in to sit on 23 benches, so I went in and sat down, too. 24 Q: All right. And when you went into 25 the Park, did you have any appreciation as to the
971 significance of what was happening, at that time? 2 A: I -- I seen the police escorting like 3 a RV out of there and I figured, well, oh they're just 4 taking them all out so that -- you know, like, our land 5 would all be given back to us. 6 Q: All right. Were you at a meeting on 7 the beach, at which it was discussed as to whether you'd 8 be going into the Park? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Where did you enter the 11 Park from? 12 A: We had a bonfire on the beach and it 13 as just -- just walk down the sand. 14 Q: All right. From the beach? 15 A: Yeah, right on the beach. 16 Q: Okay. Were there any prior community 17 meetings that you're aware of, to discuss the possibility 18 of taking over the Park? 19 A: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Did you subsequently come to realize 24 that -- the act of walking into the Park on the 4th was 25 intended to be an occupation?
981 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I just figured it was part of our 4 land. And it was --you know, I think it was part of the 5 whole parcel, so -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- it was already ours. 8 Q: Had you -- had you ever been to the 9 Provincial Park, prior to this day? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Why not? 12 A: I didn't enjoy camping. 13 Q: All right. And I'm just trying to 14 understand, if -- if you felt that on the 4th, going in 15 was -- was natural, because it was part of your land, why 16 hadn't you gone onto the Park before? 17 A: Well anybody else going there was 18 just going to Camp. 19 Q: All right. In terms of the -- the 20 occupation, what -- what did you understand, if anything, 21 was to be the nature of the occupation of the Park? 22 A: Well I knew it was closed down for 23 the season, so I figured it was just closed, closed. 24 Q: All right. But my question is: Did 25 you have any understanding as to how the occupation was
991 to be carried out? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. When you entered the 4 Park, you indicated that you saw police officers 5 escorting campers out of the Park? 6 A: Just one (1) RV. 7 Q: One (1) RV, okay. And these were 8 uniformed police officers? 9 A: OPPs. 10 Q: Did you see any other police presence 11 in the Park when you walked in? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: You have to speak for the record. 16 A: No, just -- just a couple of OPPs. 17 Q: All right. And do you know where 18 they went after they escorted the RV? Did they leave the 19 Park or stay? 20 A: They were closer to the road I guess. 21 They -- like that one (1) RV was right in the middle of 22 the Park. I seen them there and then they take them out 23 and then they would have been over the edge towards the 24 road. 25 Q: And which road is that?
1001 A: Army Camp Road. 2 Q: All right. Okay. And you didn't see 3 any other police presence within the Park at that time? 4 A: Yeah. They -- I think there were a 5 couple more than that. Like, let me see, I went into 6 the Park, I seen that and then I came back out of the 7 Park. I went back up front to the built-up area and I 8 got in my car and then I drove down Army Camp Road and I 9 went to the gates to Park. 10 And there were police there and they just 11 waved and let me in so I figured, Well they're just 12 letting us go in. 13 Q: All right. So how -- how long do you 14 think you initially spent in the Park when you first 15 walked into the Park? 16 A: I don't know. Maybe -- maybe an hour 17 or so. I don't know. 18 Q: All right. And then you left with 19 your car, did you say? And you went back to the built-up 20 area and how long did you stay up there? 21 A: Just grabbed the other car and drive 22 down to see if the police were going to let me in or if 23 they were going to try and stop me. 24 Q: All right. And when you re-entered 25 the Park then, that -- later that day, were there still
1011 police within the Park that you could see? 2 A: You mean when I drove in with the 3 car? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Yeah. They just waved at me and let 6 me go by. 7 Q: Well, but you said they were at the 8 gates. Were they inside the Park? 9 A: I guess there might have been a 10 couple more up the road there a little ways. But they 11 didn't tell me anything either. 12 Q: No, I'm just interested in knowing if 13 there were still police cruisers within the Park? Inside 14 the Park when you came back? 15 A: Yeah, I think there were. They had - 16 - I think they had a car there. 17 Q: All right. Now when you went back 18 into the Park, did you have anyone with you? 19 A: My grandson. 20 Q: Okay. And were you bringing anything 21 else into the Park? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. And you say the police 24 officers waved you through? 25 A: Yeah. They just waved and let me
1021 drive by. 2 Q: And they didn't ask for your name or 3 to look in your car or anything like that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. And how long did you then 6 stay in the Park? 7 A: Probably not that long. 8 Q: Did you observe any altercations as 9 between any members of the police force and any of the 10 occupants? 11 A: Oh. No. I'm -- there was people 12 around. I -- I know something was going on but I 13 couldn't see it because I'm short. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: The road was there and then there was 16 a little hill and the people standing on top of that. 17 Q: So you could see something happening 18 but you couldn't see it very well? 19 A: I knew something was happening. But 20 I didn't know, I couldn't see what it was. 21 Q: All right, fair enough. Okay. And 22 how long did you stay in the Park then? 23 A: I think I probably went home then. 24 Q: So you didn't stay long? 25 A: I -- no, not really.
1031 Q: And you drove back to the built-up 2 area? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And did you again -- did you exit via 5 Army Camp Road or did you go through the internal roads? 6 A: Internal roads. 7 Q: And were there any attempts to stop 8 you by the police? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Did you see anybody in 11 the Park that day with firearms of any kind? 12 A: The police. 13 Q: All right. Anyone else? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Now given that this had been 16 the first time you'd ever been in Ipperwash Provincial 17 Park, and given your earlier statement that you always 18 considered it to be part of your lands, how did you -- 19 what was your reaction or how did you feel when you 20 realized that the people had walked into the Park? 21 A: I was happy and I -- I guess I just 22 figured that, you know like, once the summer Park season 23 was over, that they were just going to vacate it and give 24 us our land. 25 Q: All right. And do you have any
1041 reason for that -- do you have any basis for that belief 2 at the time, that they were just going to let you have 3 the land? 4 A: The police weren't stopping me from 5 going in there. 6 Q: Okay. Did you notice the presence of 7 any other people, other aboriginal people than self- 8 identified Stoney Point people, in the Park, on the 4th? 9 A: You mean like Dudley and my son and-- 10 Q: I mean, people who were not -- 11 A: Oh -- 12 Q: -- self-identified Stoney Point 13 people. 14 A: Oh, no, no. 15 Q: Okay. Did you observe anyone 16 drinking alcohol in the Park that night? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. Did you see anyone 19 throwing flares at -- at -- towards police officers? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Or did you see anyone striking at a 22 police cruiser that night? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you go to the Park on Tuesday, 25 September the 5th, 1995?
1051 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you recall approximately how 3 much time you spent at the Park that day? 4 A: Maybe two (2), three (3) hours or 5 tops at that. 6 Q: Did you go during the day time or the 7 night time or both? 8 A: I would say it was in the afternoon. 9 Q: In the afternoon? 10 A: Probably late afternoon. 11 Q: Okay. Give me a second. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: We're just going to put a copy of the 16 map of the Park onto the screen and I'm going to ask you 17 where it was that you spent the majority of your time. 18 There it is. 19 A: Oh. 20 Q: That's Exhibit P-61 and we'll get rid 21 of that box in the middle. And this is a -- a diagram -- 22 a diagram of the Park. And can you tell me where, using 23 the -- your -- your laser pointer where you -- you spent 24 the majority or all of your time, on the 5th? 25 A: I got to try figure out which way
1061 you're going with this. 2 Q: Okay. The -- the lake is at the top 3 of the map. The Army Camp would be at the -- towards the 4 bot -- past the bottom of the map. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: And Army Camp Road would be to the 7 left and Matheson Drive across and then Outer Drive to 8 the right. Sorry? Not Outer Drive? Well, no, I know 9 Matheson curves around. 10 A: I think it would have been right 11 about round there where we were. 12 Q: Okay. And is that by the Park store? 13 A: Yeah, that would have been where the 14 Park store was, I think. 15 Q: And which side of the store did you - 16 - did you stay on, was it the side towards the road, Army 17 Camp Drive -- Road or -- or on the opposite side? 18 A: Right here, by -- right -- right by 19 that little curvy thing. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I believe the fire was around there. 22 Q: Okay. And this is by the Park store? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And from your location there, could 25 you see very well, the -- the sandy parking lot and road
1071 access that was off of Army Camp Road? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. Did you go with anyone to the 4 Park on the 5th? 5 A: My daughter and granddaughter. 6 Q: Okay. And is this your three (3) 7 week old granddaughter, or how old, I'm sorry, how old 8 was she? 9 A: Three (3) weeks. 10 Q: Three (3) weeks, old. Okay. 11 A: I was a proud grandmother. I was 12 dragging her all over the place. 13 Q: Okay. And how did you spend your 14 time in that two (2) to three (3) hour period? 15 A: Sitting around the fire just eating, 16 drinking some pop, talking to different people. I'm 17 pretty sure that was the day that Bonnie was there. 18 Q: Bonnie Bressette? 19 A: Yes, and she had her daughters and 20 their grandchildren there and I had lots of people to 21 show my granddaughter to. 22 Q: Okay. Proud grandmother? 23 A: Oh, yes. 24 Q: All right. And did you attempt to 25 leave either the Army Camp or the -- through -- at the
1081 gate -- the main gate that day, on Tuesday? 2 A: I don't remember. 3 Q: Do you recall whether you went 4 through any police checks on Tuesday, September the -- 5 the 5th? 6 A: I know I did go through sometime, it 7 would have been either that Tuesday or the next day. It 8 might even have been both days but the Cops were there 9 and they were, you know like, asking you for 10 identification and everything and I got kind of upset 11 because every time you would pull out they would pull you 12 over and ask you again and I'd just tell them, Jeez, you 13 already got that information this morning. 14 Q: All right. And, but did you -- when 15 you were asked to, did you pull over and show your 16 identification? 17 A: Yeah, they were stopping you right 18 there on the road. 19 Q: Okay. And were they asking or did -- 20 did they ask to look into your vehicle? 21 A: Well the one (1) time I had my -- I 22 had some guys in the back and I was giving them a ride 23 and they -- they tried to ask me who they were, but I 24 just told them they couldn't ask that and all they could 25 do was ask about me.
1091 Q: And what was the reaction of the 2 police when you told them that? 3 A: Well they kind of got -- gives me my 4 licence back. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. Did he let you go at that 6 point? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And who were the men in the back of 9 your car? 10 A: My cousin Stewart. 11 Q: Stewart George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And who else? 14 A: I don't even remember. 15 Q: Okay. Was it another relative or -- 16 A: Probably, I was giving them a ride to 17 Kettle Point. 18 Q: Okay. Did the police at any of these 19 checkpoints ask if you were one (1) of the people who 20 were occupying the Park? 21 A: I don't think so. 22 Q: Okay. Did they suggest to you that 23 you shouldn't be in the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Now, going back to your
1101 time in the Park on Tuesday, the two (2) to three (3) 2 hours, did you observe any police presence around the 3 Park when you were there? 4 A: They might have been outside of the 5 fence there, but I didn't pay any attention to them. 6 Q: All right. When say you didn't pay 7 any attention, did you observe what they were doing? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Did you hear anything; 10 did you hear them trying to call over? 11 A: They could have been. 12 Q: All right. Now, did you observe any 13 helicopter activity on Tuesday? 14 A: Yeah, they were flying around, coming 15 down real low, blowing up a lot of dust; just being 16 irritating, harassing. 17 Q: Did you happen to notice whether or 18 not they had any camera equipment on the helicopter? 19 A: I didn't really look up, but I -- I 20 know afterwards that somebody said there was a camera on 21 there. 22 Q: All right. But you didn't see that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. Did you see anybody throw 25 rocks at the helicopter when you were there?
1111 A: No. 2 Q: No. Did you see anyone give it any 3 gestures, any gestures, or make any gestures towards it? 4 A: Like somebody mooning it? 5 Q: For example? 6 A: Do I have to tell on them? I guess 7 they already got it on camera, hey. Tina. 8 Q: Tina George? She mentioned that to 9 us. 10 A: Oh, okay. So I guess I didn't tell 11 on her. 12 Q: Okay. And when that occurred, was 13 that by the Park store, or was that somewhere else within 14 the Park? 15 A: Well, no, no, that would have been -- 16 I -- I think it was right around the Park store there. 17 Q: All right. Did you happen to notice 18 whether there were any boats out on the water that -- 19 that appeared to be watching over the Park? 20 A: Yeah, there was one that just stayed 21 there. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: You don't get many boats that just 24 sit right there. 25 Q: So that drew your attention, did it?
1121 A: All right. Oh, yeah. 2 Q: Now, did you notice whether or not 3 any -- anyone from within the Park was flashing mirrors 4 and using mirrors to flash sunlight into the eyes of 5 police officers that day? 6 A: Well, I heard the kids were doing 7 that. 8 Q: But did you see that? 9 A: Not -- not per se. 10 Q: Okay. Were you -- were you there in 11 the evening at all? 12 A: If I was, it would have been just for 13 a little while, just go down there for something and just 14 go back. 15 Q: All right. So you don't have any 16 specific recollection of that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Do you recall whether or not you 19 observed any -- anyone with firecrackers at the Park on 20 Tuesday? 21 A: There could have been. I mean, kids 22 just love to blow them off around you and make you jump 23 and scream. 24 Q: Was that something that -- that you 25 had experienced at the Army Camp?
1131 A: Well, people scaring me? Yeah. 2 Q: Well, the use of firecrackers. 3 A: If they had them, they'd use them, 4 yeah. But I can't really recall that day or not. 5 Q: All right. Now did you have any 6 discussions with your brother, Dudley, on Tuesday, 7 September the 5th, which made an impact on you? 8 A: He came and he told me the police 9 said they were gonna get him first. And -- and the words 10 that came out of my mouth was, it's a good day to die. I 11 don't know, words come out of my mouth sometimes. 12 But he said it kind of jokingly, like, 13 like he didn't want to take it serious, he didn't want to 14 believe that. Now, I didn't want to believe it either, 15 because I would, you know, I -- if I believed him then -- 16 then they were gonna shoot my brother. They told him 17 they were gonna get him first. 18 Q: Do you recall where this conversation 19 took place? 20 A: It was down in the Park. I was, you 21 know, like, where we were, where we had our fire, where 22 we were all sitting around talking and -- and he was kind 23 of sad. 24 Q: He was sad? 25 A: He was, and he tried to make light of
1141 it. I didn't really believe they would do that. But 2 they -- they told him that. 3 Q: At the time that you had this 4 conversation with your brother, were you concerned about 5 his safety? 6 A: I didn't really think they'd do that. 7 Q: All right. And so, were -- were you 8 serious when you responded, It's a good day to die? 9 A: The words just came out of my mouth. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: I don't even know where they came 12 from. It was just -- it kind -- like, trying to ease his 13 worrying too, you know, like, where -- where they don't 14 really mean that, I mean, they're just -- just trying to 15 harass us, and intimidate him, and scare him. 16 Q: Did he tell you about the -- the 17 circumstances at which this alleged statement was made to 18 him? 19 A: Not a lot. He just came and told me 20 that. 21 Q: All right. Did he tell you or did he 22 describe the -- the police officer who made that 23 statement? 24 A: No. Because I think -- I think he, 25 you know, I think he was hoping that they were, like,
1151 just joking around. And I didn't really take it serious. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I mean, if he would have, like, he 4 probably would have given a full description and 5 everything. But he didn't, you know, like -- 6 Q: Did you do anything as a result of 7 receiving this information from your brother? 8 A: Well, I didn't believe they would do 9 that either. So, I thought they were just saying that to 10 scare him. 11 Q: Did you continue to -- to visit the 12 Park after that statement? 13 A: Yeah. I stayed there for a while 14 longer and I -- I had my -- my daughter and granddaughter 15 there. And I -- I didn't really believe that was going 16 to happen. 17 Q: To your knowledge, had Dudley George 18 had any incidents with the police or any history with the 19 police, if you will, prior to the Park occupation? 20 A: When isn't a Native -- person in 21 trouble with the police? I don't think Dudley had been 22 doing any -- anything like -- well, I guess some things 23 would be considered serious. He -- he had a little bit 24 of trouble there. After my mom died, the boys were 25 harder to handle at home and stuff and --
1161 Q: Hmm hmm. Was that one (1) of your 2 roles as the eldest sister, to look after the younger 3 boys when your mother died? 4 A: I kind of watched over them. I 5 didn't have to live right with them, but offer some 6 guidance. 7 Q: Do you recall relaying or reporting 8 this conversation you had with your brother concerning 9 the -- the statements to the media in September of 1995? 10 A: You mean after? 11 Q: After, yes, after the -- the 12 shooting? 13 A: I believe so. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: If you would look at Tab 10 of the 19 brief in front of you. And it's Inquiry Document Number 20 1008975. It's an article from the Toronto Star dated 21 September the 10th, 1995, authored by Peter Edwards. You 22 see that there? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Do you recall being interviewed on -- 25 on September the 10th?
1171 A: I know I was interviewed. I know 2 after it happened -- the stuff -- they -- I went to the 3 gate and gave an interview there. 4 Q: If you look on the third column, and 5 this is, I'm -- I'm quoting from the article now: 6 "She added", and they're referring to 7 you, 8 "that her brother was told by OPP early 9 last week that he would be among the 10 first shot if gunfire broke out. Her 11 brother laughed at -- off the threat, 12 she said." 13 Do you recall saying something like that-- 14 A: Yes -- 15 Q: -- on September the 10th? 16 A: -- because, you know, like, he didn't 17 really seriously think that that would happen. 18 Q: All right. And we've just -- Mr. 19 Millar has just put the article on the screen for the 20 benefit of the -- the people here. 21 Commissioner, I'd like to make that the 22 next exhibit, please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-149. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 149. 25
1181 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-149: Article dated 10th September, 2 1995 from Toronto Star, 3 authored by Peter Edwards. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: And I should note that I'm not 7 tendering this for the truth of the content but rather 8 for the fact of the statement on or about September the 9 10th, 1995. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now we understand that -- that Tina 14 George was occupying the maintenance building at the 15 Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: On the 5th. Were you aware of that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did you go over to visit her 20 there? 21 A: I probably stopped in. 22 Q: And did you have any knowledge as to 23 whether or not there was a -- a surveillance camera in 24 the shed? 25 A: I didn't know there was one.
1191 Q: All right. Were you aware that 2 individuals were using the gasoline in the tanks at the 3 maintenance shed? 4 A: Not soon enough. 5 Q: Meaning? 6 A: For me to get any. 7 Q: I was going to ask you, did you fill 8 up your car? No? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Now we under -- we've heard some 11 evidence from Marlin Simon that -- that he filled up a 12 number of tanks, containers full of gas. Did you see any 13 such containers in the Park? 14 A: You mean just like the little gas 15 tank things? 16 Q: I think they were a bit bigger than 17 that. 18 A: I wouldn't have noticed them then. 19 Q: All right. All right, did you say 20 that you -- were there small gas containers? 21 A: I was asking, were they -- you mean 22 like the -- the red plastic things that they use now? 23 Q: Have you seen -- did you see any of 24 those? 25 A: You mean at the -- at the maintenance
1201 building? 2 Q: Or at the Park, within the Park? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. Did you see any 5 interactions with the police on Tuesday, September the 6 5th, '95, aside from the checkpoints? I'm talking about 7 down at the Park. 8 Did you have any direct communications or 9 contact with the police? 10 A: I don't think so. 11 Q: Did you see anyone else having direct 12 contact or communications with the police that day? 13 A: You mean -- that would have had to 14 have been out by the -- 15 Q: Round the Park. 16 A: -- the fence, you mean? No. 17 Q: All right. Did you personally ever 18 go over to the sandy parking lot area next to East 19 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? During the -- during 20 the Tuesday? 21 A: I don't think so. 22 Q: All right. Did you see any incidents 23 involving picnic tables and police? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you witness any attempts by
1211 either police or Park officials to gain the attention of 2 the occupants, either for negotiations or for discussion 3 purposes? 4 A: I never. 5 Q: You never saw that? 6 A: No, I never saw that. 7 Q: All right. Do you have any 8 understanding with respect to whether or not the 9 occupants were willing to speak with the police or Park 10 officials, concerning the occupation? 11 A: I have no knowledge of -- 12 Q: All right. Now, did you go back to 13 your home at the barracks after your afternoon visit to 14 the Park or? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And did you sleep there 17 that night? 18 A: At the -- the barracks, yeah. 19 Q: Now did Dudley George ever talk to 20 you about his beliefs concerning the former Stoney Point 21 Reserve lands? 22 A: Only that it's our land; that we 23 should have been growing up there, that we should have 24 had, you know like -- be able to live there and hunt and 25 fish.
1221 Q: Hmm hmm. And did he talk to you 2 about these beliefs before or after 1993? 3 A: It would have been after. 4 Q: Did he talk to you ever about his 5 beliefs with respect to the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 6 A: No. We didn't sit down and have real 7 deep philosophical conversations, okay? 8 Q: Fair enough. All right. To your 9 knowledge, were there any peacekeepers at the Park 10 between September the 4th and 6th, 1995? 11 A: To my knowledge? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Were you aware as to 15 whether or not there had been any discussions involving 16 Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone with respect to the 17 occupation of the Army Camp? 18 A: No. I wasn't aware of -- 19 Q: All right. Did you observe any non- 20 Stoney Point people at the Park, anyone who wasn't from 21 either Stoney or Kettle Point at the Park, on the 22 Tuesday? 23 A: There was always people stopping in, 24 seeing how we were doing. Even when we lived down on the 25 ranges in '93 there was always people stopping in all of
1231 the time. 2 Q: Okay. Did you happen to observe Russ 3 Jewel at the Park on Tuesday? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Or Les Jewel? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Or Buck Doxtator? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Gabriel Doxtator. 10 A: No. 11 Q: How about Larry or Dutchy French? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you see Al -- Al George? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Or Chuck George? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Or Wayne Pine? 18 A: Not really. Some of those people 19 sleep different hours. 20 Q: Okay. Did anything else of 21 significance then occur on Tuesday, September the 5th, 22 1995, that you can recall? 23 A: No, not that I can recall. 24 Q: Did you see at any point in time, any 25 firearms in the Park on Tuesday?
1241 A: No. 2 Q: Did you see any firearms at the 3 built-up area or Army Camp? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did you witness anyone with alcohol 6 in the Park on Tuesday? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you witness anyone who appeared 9 to be suffering from the affects of inebriation on -- on 10 Tuesday? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you hear any 13 gunshots, either at the Park or at the Army Camp on 14 Tuesday, either during the day or night? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. Did you hear anything 17 that may have been mistaken or sounded like gunshots that 18 -- that night? 19 A: I can't really say. 20 Q: All right. It may be that the 21 Inquiry will hear evidence in relation to gunshots being 22 heard in or around the Army Camp on Tuesday night. There 23 was some conflicting testimony by Tina George in that 24 respect. 25 Would that evidence refresh or alter your
1251 -- your recollection in any way? 2 A: All I can think of it would be 3 somebody's car backfiring. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: If anything at all. 6 Q: But you don't recall hearing 7 gunshots -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- Tuesday night? Thank you. 10 Commissioner, I believe it's noon and perhaps it would be 11 appropriate to take the lunch break? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's break 15 now until approximately 1:15. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 17 adjourned until 1:15. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 12:02 p.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 1:20 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
1261 Q: Good afternoon. 2 A: Good afternoon. 3 Q: We'd like to move on to Wednesday, 4 September the 6th, 1995 and I'm going to ask you some 5 questions about the daytime first. 6 Did you go to the Park on Wednesday the 7 6th during the day? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: How long do you estimate you spent in 10 the Park during the day? 11 A: Maybe a couple of hours. 12 Q: Okay. Similar to the day before, 13 then? Similar to the day before? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did you go again to the same area 16 beside the Park store, generally? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And what were you doing 19 at the Park on Wednesday? 20 A: Just visiting with people who were 21 there. 22 Q: Okay. Did you have your grandchild 23 with you still? 24 A: Oh, yes. 25 Q: Of course? Did you observe any
1271 police presence around the Park, during the day? 2 A: Not really. 3 Q: All right. How about around the Army 4 Camp? 5 A: Just leaving up near the main gate on 6 the highway. 7 Q: All right. How would you compare the 8 level of police presence on Wednesday during the day as 9 compared with the day before? 10 A: I guess it was a bit more. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: Like, they were just kind of always 13 there and I didn't really notice a lot more, it was just 14 they were there and pulling cars over and -- 15 Q: At the checkpoints? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. Did you leave the -- the 18 vicinity of the Army Camp and Park that day? 19 A: I don't know if I did. I don't 20 recall. 21 Q: All right. While you were at -- well 22 firstly, what time of day were you at the Park? 23 A: It would have been afternoon. 24 Q: And while you were at the Park in the 25 afternoon on the 6th, did you see any firearms at the
1281 Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were you aware of there being 4 firearms at the Park? 5 A: Not any of our people. 6 Q: Okay. When you say not any of your 7 people, were -- 8 A: If -- if -- if there were guns, it 9 would have been the police who had them outside of the 10 Park. 11 Q: Okay. You didn't see any, in any 12 event? You have to say no. 13 A: No. I forgot. 14 Q: That's all right. Fair enough. Now, 15 during the course of the day, did you see children or 16 adults with mirrors flashing sunlight into the eyes of 17 the officers? 18 A: I heard that the kids were doing 19 that. 20 Q: All right. Did you see Warren 21 George's bus in the Park, during the day? 22 A: I don't recall if it was. 23 Q: All right. Do you recall seeing a 24 dump truck in -- in the Park, during the day? 25 A: I don't recall.
1291 Q: Were there any vehicles in the Park? 2 A: I guess just pretty well what people 3 were driving. 4 Q: All right. Did you witness anyone 5 with alc -- with alcohol at the Park, on Wednesday? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you see anyone who appeared to 8 you to be visibly impaired? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you have any direct contact with 11 police officers on Wednesday, during the day? 12 A: If I did it would have been -- it 13 would have been at the checkpoints, leaving. 14 Q: All right. And you've told us about 15 those encounters already. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Did you witness any interactions, as 18 between the police and the Park Occupants, during the 19 day? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you see any incidents involving 22 Darryl George, that day? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you speak to your brother, 25 Dudley, on Wednesday?
1301 A: On -- only in the evening. I like -- 2 Q: All right. Okay, we'll stick to 3 the -- 4 A: -- that I would remember, you know? 5 Q: All right. So nothing of note during 6 the day? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. I'd like, then, to move 9 to the evening of Wednesday, September the 6th, 1995. 10 Did you go to the Park that night? 11 A: In the evening, yes. 12 Q: All right. Do you recall 13 approximately what time of night? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Was it early, mid or late evening? 16 A: It was dark out, I guess. 17 Q: All right. What was the purpose of 18 attending at the Park, that night? 19 A: I had been cooking, like, a meal in 20 the kitchen and I was going to tell the guys that the 21 food was ready and ask them if they were going to come up 22 to the kitchen to eat or if they were going to -- if they 23 wanted me to bring it down there. 24 Q: All right. And how -- what -- what 25 mode of transportation did you use to go to the Park?
1311 A: My son's car, a Chevette. 2 Q: Do you recall what colour the 3 Chevette -- 4 A: Brown. 5 Q: Okay. Is it dark or light? 6 A: Medium. 7 Q: Medium, okay. And was anyone else in 8 the car with you when you travelled down to the Park? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you take the internal route, if I 11 can use that, between the Camp and the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Did you notice any police 14 activity along Army Camp Drive as you -- or Road -- as 15 you went down the street? 16 A: When I went down the road, I got so 17 far down the road and then spotlights come on me shining 18 and -- 19 Q: And where -- could you tell where 20 these spotlights were coming from? 21 A: From the highway. 22 Q: From the highway? 23 A: Outside of the internal road. 24 Q: Okay, the Highway 21? 25 A: No, the Army Camp Road.
1321 Q: Okay. And in terms of the lights 2 flashing, was that -- where was that relative to the 3 location of the Park? 4 A: It would have been approximately half 5 ways down, I'd say. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: But they were spotlights shining 8 right on me, they weren't flashing. 9 Q: Okay. Sorry, shining. And did that 10 -- had that -- had you experienced that before? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did that cause you any concern? 13 A: Well, I wondered why they were doing 14 that. 15 Q: All right. And then you proceeded 16 into the Park? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what entrance did you take into 19 the Park? 20 A: Just inside it, the -- you mean like 21 -- I just went straight down the road -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- and then I went through where -- 24 where the maintenance building is and -- 25 Q: Okay, past the maintenance building
1331 and into the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that, of course, is in the Park, 4 but that -- that road. 5 A: Yeah, that road. 6 Q: All right. And where did you -- 7 where did you go, where -- where did you stop, I should 8 say, once you were in the Park? 9 A: I -- I had a little bit of food with 10 me that, you know like, took it down there and to -- to 11 go give Dudley and my son, Glenn, you know like, a little 12 bit to eat. I thought they might be getting hungry by 13 that time. 14 So I pulled up, there's, like you know, 15 the fence and it's got a row of trees and then there's 16 another row of trees over and I kind of pulled up there 17 and started asking where Dudley was. 18 Q: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I just put the -- the Ipperwash map 23 on the screen again, and perhaps you can use your red 24 laser to mark where it was you stopped; as you've just 25 described it?
1341 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: It would have been -- let's see. 4 This -- this is right -- is that the fence line there? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Okay. And there's that row of trees 7 there. Is that supposed to be a row of trees there? 8 Q: Let's assume it is. 9 Q: Okay, that's where I would have been 10 parked at. I'm shaky, eh? 11 Q: Oh, that's fine. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: All right. So at the top lefthand 14 corner of the map onto the right of the -- between the -- 15 the parking lot and the line of trees; is that right? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And just for the record, that's P-61. 20 All right. So you stopped there. Did you get out of the 21 car? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you find your son and Dudley? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did -- and what -- can you describe
1351 what -- what it is you were noticing around you? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: There were people moving around and 6 stuff and, you know like, I told them what I went there 7 for, asked them if they were hungry and -- and give them 8 that little bit of food I had. 9 And I don't know whether I even had a 10 chance to ask them if they wanted me to bring the food 11 down there or whatever. I was telling them that it was 12 done, but then they said something was going on. And I 13 believe it was Robert came over and said that we needed 14 help because they were -- that they needed more guys down 15 there and needed help, because something was happening. 16 Q: And you say Robert; Robert who? 17 A: Isaac. 18 Q: All right. And did he tell you what 19 the "something" was that was going on or did he just say 20 something was going on? 21 A: He said something was going on. But 22 when I looked over I seen like, a whole row of police. 23 Q: All right. Where did you see the row 24 of police? 25 A: Outside of the fence. That would be
1361 what you referred to as the sandy parking lot. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: They were shoulder to shoulder, 4 coming up towards the fence. 5 Q: All right. And were they in the 6 process of walking towards the fence then? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And just -- just for the 9 record, that's the sandy parking lot located just off of 10 East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when you saw that, what, if 13 anything, did you do? 14 A: I said I would go to get help. One - 15 - one other girl said she would go to help and I asked 16 her if she had a car and she said she didn't, so I said I 17 would go. 18 And before I left, I -- I did see up on -- 19 there was like a little hill there, and like it's outside 20 -- it's right outside the fence on -- on Army Camp Road. 21 Q: Why don't you like at the diagram 22 behind you, the intersection of Army Camp Road and -- and 23 East Parkway Drive; is the little sandy hill there? Or 24 can you point where it would have been? 25 A: Yeah, it would have been in -- in --
1371 right around there. I thought it was kind of closer, but 2 it would have been just probably my line of perception. 3 Q: Okay. So the Park side of the -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- sandy parking lot? 6 A: No, outside. Here's the fence and 7 the row of trees and this was outside. 8 Q: All right. So there's a -- is it 9 marked there on the intersection? 10 A: Sandpile. 11 Q: We're just looking at Exhibit P-23. 12 Is it -- is it marked there, "the sandy pile"? 13 A: Sand pile, yes. 14 Q: Okay. So that -- 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: All right. Are -- was it the -- 19 we've heard some evidence that sandy hill, there's some 20 issue about whether or not that was there or not at -- on 21 the night in question. So you just look at the 22 intersection and -- but you -- you tell me to the best of 23 your recollection what -- 24 A: I thought -- I thought I seen the 25 light more from here that it was closer to the fence line
1381 there. 2 Q: Yes, okay. 3 A: I thought it was right about in 4 there. 5 Q: To the right of the sandy pile that's 6 marked? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay, fair enough. All right. And - 9 - sorry, carry on. I'm sorry. 10 A: So like I said, I would go for help 11 so I took off back up front. That's the built-up area. 12 Q: All right. In your car? 13 A: Yeah in the little brown Chevette. 14 And when I went back up the road, the spotlights were on 15 me again as I drove by. And I went to the gate and I was 16 asking where everybody was and -- and -- 17 Q: And you're talking the main gate at 18 the army camp now? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: And I noticed Marlene Cloud sitting 22 there on the curb and she looked just all pale and shaken 23 up and -- didn't look good anyways. So like I asked her 24 if she wanted to go for a ride with me back down to the 25 Park so she could tell me what -- like try and get her
1391 calmed down and stuff. 2 And -- and I -- I didn't know where any of 3 the guys were up there or anything, but when I was 4 getting ready to take off, I seen lights coming down the 5 road. 6 Q: All right. So just so I -- I 7 understand. At this point are you outside of your 8 Chevette car? 9 A: No we're in -- 10 Q: You're in it? 11 A: -- we're in the car and I told her to 12 get in and we were just kind of sitting there and I'm 13 like, you know, I -- where do I go look for anybody but I 14 seen lights coming along the road that's right along the 15 Highway 21. 16 Q: So are talk -- Highway 21 or Army 17 Camp? 18 A: 21. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Because by then I was inside the gate 21 going -- like going inwards so I was facing, east that 22 would be. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And -- and I could see the lights 25 coming.
1401 Q: Along the Highway? 2 A: Yeah. It was in -- that's the 3 direction, but the lights were there and so I thought I 4 would just sit there and wait and see if there was 5 anybody going to go down to the Park and the -- it was 6 the dump truck that went by so -- 7 Q: Went by you, from -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I just decided to wait there because 11 if it was somebody going to help them I didn't want to be 12 in the way. I, you know like, wanted to keep the road 13 clear for them. So they went by and I went following 14 them and then Marlene was telling me that the police 15 wouldn't let her in, to the camp. 16 And she was all upset because she felt she 17 should at least get into the camp and tell us that 18 something was going on, that they wouldn't let her in 19 there. 20 Q: How was it that -- that you found her 21 then? 22 A: She was sitting on the curb at the 23 main gate. Like inside of the gate, just sitting there. 24 I didn't -- 25 Q: Okay.
1411 A: -- she could have been like going 2 into shock. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And so she went with me and we went, 5 you know like, back down the road but by the time -- 6 well, yeah, went by the lights again and as we got closer 7 to the Park -- 8 Q: So you're driving back down towards 9 the Park behind the dump truck, is that right? 10 A: No, the dump truck was way ahead of 11 us. 12 Q: Was way ahead of you, okay. 13 A: It was a dusty road and -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- you couldn't see if -- there was 16 lots of dust, so I just kind of let them get ahead of me. 17 So by the time I got down there I -- I seen -- I didn't 18 even make it right -- right to the Park, I would say. I 19 seen lights and they were -- the roads in the Park are 20 all curvy and you could see the lights go flashing this 21 way, that way and -- 22 Q: The lights from what? 23 A: A -- a vehicle. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And I figured they were coming back
1421 and fast so I just sat there again and waited for them to 2 go by. And remember Chevettes are very little cars. 3 Q: Yeah. All right. So now, you're not 4 in the Park, you're on the road that's parallel to the 5 Army Camp Road, you're facing the Park, now a car comes 6 by you; is that right? 7 A: Whole bunch. 8 Q: A whole bunch? Okay. And then what 9 happens? 10 A: And then I followed them. 11 Q: So you turned around and -- 12 A: Turned around and followed them back. 13 Q: -- went back to the built-up area? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Fair enough. Okay. All right. Then 16 what? 17 A: By the time we got back up there, 18 there was -- I could -- there was bunch of people around 19 the gate, but I couldn't get close. There was too many 20 people, so I just hopped out of the car and I went 21 running over and that's when they told me Dudley had been 22 shot and -- 23 Q: Do you remember who told you? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay.
1431 A: But I remember Robert saying that 2 they needed a woman to go and I just said, I'll go, 3 that's my brother. 4 Q: To go where? 5 A: To go with Dudley to the hospital. 6 Q: All right. And at this time do you 7 know where Dudley was? 8 A: They already had Dudley in Pierre's 9 back seat. 10 Q: All right. So, this is your brother 11 Pierre's car? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I mean, yes. 15 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you look at 16 Dudl -- your brother before you got into the car? 17 A: I was going to hop in the back seat 18 with him, but JT was already in there. He says, I'm in 19 there and I says, all right, you -- you keep pressure on 20 his wound. I, like, I was jumping in the front seat at 21 the same time and, you know like, I did turn around and 22 look but I didn't assess, like, check any of the vitals 23 or anything. 24 Q: All right. Can you just tell me how 25 your brother looked when you looked back at him?
1441 A: Unconscious. 2 Q: All right. And what -- what side of 3 the car did you get into? 4 A: I got into the passenger side of the 5 front. 6 Q: All right. Okay. And where was 7 Pierre at this time? 8 A: He'd be in the driver's seat by then 9 because everybody got there before me. 10 Q: Okay. What happened next? 11 A: We took off out of the gate and then 12 headed up towards the highway -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- and -- I don't know whether we 15 really discussed which hospital to go to, but Pierre kind 16 of decided Strathroy and I figured, sure, because he -- 17 he had been there. 18 Q: All right. Now, just before you 19 describe the route, as you left -- exited the Camp -- 20 Army Camp -- at the main gate, did you have to go through 21 any police check or barricade of any kind? 22 A: There were police cars there, but 23 they weren't stopping us. 24 Q: All right. Did you consider stopping 25 for them?
1451 A: I figured they would pull us over 2 because we didn't have a licence plate and I figured if 3 they pulled us over they could at least call for an 4 ambulance. 5 Q: What about -- to your knowledge had 6 an ambulance been called? 7 A: Not to my knowledge. 8 Q: Did you consider asking the police to 9 call an ambulance? 10 A: Well, I just figured if they pul me 11 over they -- they would at least call an ambulance. 12 Q: And did they pull you over? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Just give me a second. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: We're looking at Inquiry Document 19 Number 500004. It comes from the Coroner's brief, and 20 it's entitled "Route Travelled by Pierre George". It's 21 also entitled "Route Travelled by Anthony George". 22 And just for the record, there are three 23 (3) parts to this map. So we have the first part 24 identified as Page 21 on the Inquiry Document number. 25 And I'm going to bring a copy up to you,
1461 Ms. George. 2 A: Good. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: All right. And just starting -- 7 first of all, just have a look at it and orient yourself 8 to the points in the map there. 9 A: I can't see with my glasses on. 10 Q: Okay. Can you first look for Army 11 Camp Road there and Highway 21. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: You see that -- where that is? Okay. 14 A: Okay, yeah. 15 Q: All right. Yeah, we'll it's 16 identified as both Highway 21 and Lakeshore Road on the 17 map. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: All right. Now focussing on this 20 first part of the map and perhaps you could use the laser 21 pointer on the screen, could you show to the best of your 22 recollection what route you took for the first part of 23 this journey. 24 And tell us -- identify the streets and 25 the direction that you were travelling in?
1471 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Okay, there's the corner there. 4 Q: Of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 5 A: Hmm hmm -- yes, I mean. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I was sure we came right down this 8 road and then -- 9 Q: What's the name of that road? 10 A: It's Army Camp Road. 11 Q: Right, okay. 12 A: And Ravenswood line? No. Is that 13 what it is? It's marked different. Okay. I just -- we 14 -- I'm sure we come over there and then we just came 15 along this road that went to -- this is the one to the 16 Highway, isn't it? 17 Q: Is that -- you're looking at 18 Northville now -- Road? You cut over to Northville? 19 A: Okay, there's the Army Camp. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Right over to this road that takes 22 you right over to this road, right down this road. 23 Q: Okay. And that appears to be 24 Ipperwash to -- just name the roads for me. 25 A: Okay.
1481 Q: And I will have you mark it on the 2 map, so we have a hard copy of it. 3 A: Good. Okay. That's Ipperwash Road 4 you got marked there, that -- it goes around -- right 5 around, so that would be the same Ipperwash Road. 6 Q: Does it become Ravenswood by any 7 chance or -- 8 A: I always thought it was Ravenswood 9 line. 10 Q: Okay, yes. 11 A: And -- and then just up to this 12 road -- 13 Q: Northville? Is that Northville? It 14 looks like -- or what did you know? 15 A: Yeah, Northville Road is just a 16 highway to the highway. 17 Q: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough, 18 and -- 19 A: There -- there -- just -- 20 Q: Right to the end of that map, then? 21 A: Yeah, right down to the end to 22 Townsend line, I think that's Townsend line. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Okay, then you just go over here a 25 little ways and then down again.
1491 Q: All right. Now, I wonder if you 2 would -- just using the map that's in front of you and do 3 you have a red pen there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that red? Okay. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: All right. So would you just, using 8 a red line, reconstruct the route that you've just told 9 us you took? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Is that red? Okay. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. So would you just -- 17 using a red line, reconstruct the route that you've just 18 told us you took? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: All right. And I'd like to make that 23 the next exhibit, please? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-150. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 150.
1501 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And just for the record 2 I'm going to make all three (3) parts of the map the same 3 exhibit. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-150: Document 500004, Page 12, 22, 6 23, Three Maps Showing Route 7 Travelled by Anthony (Dudley) 8 George, in Car Driven by 9 Pierre George, Marked by 10 Witness Ms. Carolyn George, 11 Feb 03/05 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Now, did anything of significance 15 occur during this first branch of the trip? 16 A: No. 17 Q: After the initial police cars that 18 you saw, did you see any further police along this part 19 of the route? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. And I'd ask you to look 22 at the second page of this exhibit, and it's marked page 23 22 of Inquiry Document Number 5000004. And you'll -- can 24 you just locate Northville and Townsend at the top left 25 corner?
1511 A: Down -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: That's to Townsend? 4 Q: Okay. It's also noted here as County 5 Road 12. In any event, taking your -- your time, can you 6 now show us the second part of the route that you took 7 with Pierre? 8 A: We just go to that road, just went 9 down here a little ways and then down this road. 10 Q: And this road is Nauvoo Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Okay. And then where did 13 you go from there? 14 A: That's where we got a -- our flat 15 tire. 16 Q: I will ask you some questions. I 17 just want to finish off this part of the route and then 18 I'll go back. 19 A: Oh, you mean -- yeah, I was just in 20 that road, though, so -- 21 Q: And after Nauvoo Road, where did you 22 go? Just to finish off this part of the route? 23 A: Oh, we would have went down -- you 24 mean with our tire? 25 Q: Yes.
1521 A: I don't know where -- let's see. 2 Okay, well, we would -- we came down to there and then we 3 would have went down this road. 4 Q: Okay. So that's Eagermount Drive or 5 County Road 22? And what direction is that, that you 6 were travelling? 7 A: East. 8 Q: Right. Okay. All right. And taking 9 the map in front of you and your pen, would you again 10 mark down the route that you've just told us you took? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: All right. Now, I should have asked 16 you, could you describe your brother's car? The car that 17 you were travelling in with your -- your brothers and JT, 18 just describe the car. 19 A: It was white and big. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Now, 21 along this route, did anything of significance happen? 22 This part -- along this part of the route? 23 A: We got a flat tire. 24 Q: And can you tell me approximately 25 where you got a flat tire or what street at least? Where
1531 did the flat -- 2 A: Oh, well, I can't pronounce that 3 name. 4 Q: Nauvoo? 5 A: Nauvoo? Okay. 6 Q: I don't know if I'm pronouncing it 7 right, either, but let's call it that. 8 A: It -- it's the road to Whatford. 9 Q: It was on that road, that's N-A-U-V- 10 O-O Road. All right. And do you know approximately 11 where along the road the flat tire occurred? Can you 12 tell? 13 A: I'd say almost a half ways up. 14 Q: All right. Halfway along, 15 approximately? And what did you do after getting the 16 flat tire? 17 A: We pulled into a farmhouse. 18 Q: All right. And do you recall the 19 address of the farmhouse? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you recall the name of the people 22 who own the farmhouse? 23 A: No. I -- I never met them. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I mean I was speaking with them that
1541 night but I didn't take time to introduce myself. 2 Q: Okay, fair enough. And was that 3 house also about halfway along the road? 4 A: Yeah. It was, I'd say, the first 5 house after we got the flat. 6 Q: All right. If I -- okay, that's 7 fine. And let me just ask you this. Approximately how 8 fast had Pierre been travelling up until you got the flat 9 -- tire? 10 A: Fast. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: Just fast, I wasn't -- 13 Q: Fair enough. Do you think you were 14 going over the speed limit? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I think almost as fast as the car 18 would go. 19 Q: Fair enough, all right. And you 20 pulled into the driveway of this farmhouse. What was the 21 purpose of that? 22 A: We went to ask these people if they 23 would help us out and let us use their phone -- 24 Q: All right. 25 A: -- to call for an ambulance.
1551 Q: Did -- and did you actually go up to 2 the door yourself? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: With Pierre? 5 A: I went up first and I believe Pierre 6 was turning the car around. And I was banging on the 7 door really hard and -- and then shortly afterward Pierre 8 was right behind me. 9 Q: All right. And was it a man or woman 10 who answered the door? 11 A: A man. 12 Q: Okay. What did you tell him? 13 A: I asked him if we could use his phone 14 to call for an ambulance, that my brother had been shot 15 and that he needed a -- that he had a gunshot wound to 16 his chest and we needed an ambulance. 17 Q: Would you like a moment? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. And what was the response 20 of this individual? 21 A: He was very helpful. He got right on 22 the phone and start calling and they asked for the 23 emergency number for -- 24 Q: The 911 call number? 25 A: Yes. And he had to yell upstairs for
1561 his wife to -- because she was the one who knew it. And 2 so she yelled it down. They -- they were very helpful to 3 -- to us, I mean. 4 Q: All right. And did you overhear any 5 of the conversation with the 911 operator? 6 A: Not that I can recall. 7 Q: All right. And what did you do then 8 after -- did you -- did you stay for the whole call? Or 9 did you go back to the car? 10 A: Pretty well stayed for the whole call 11 and we said we -- you know like we wanted an ambulance 12 and that we would wait out on the road. It was -- it was 13 a farmhouse and it had a real long driveway and we just 14 figured we'd be closer if we were waiting by the road and 15 that they would see us then. 16 Q: All right. And so as a result what 17 did you do? Where did the car go? 18 A: We -- we went out to the road and sat 19 there and waited. 20 Q: And so this would be at the top of 21 the driveway of this house? 22 A: Yes. Right -- right by the road. 23 Q: All right. And in the meantime where 24 was -- where was JT during all of this? 25 A: In the back seat?
1571 Q: Okay. And did you have any 2 communication with him with respect to your brother 3 Dudley? 4 A: Yeah. I kept reminding him to keep 5 pressure on there and don't let up. 6 Q: All right. Did you -- did you, at 7 this point, look at your brother or attempt to assess him 8 at all, or -- 9 A: It was very dark out. 10 Q: All right. Fair enough. And how 11 long did you and Pierre and JT and Dudley, how long did 12 you wait out at the top of the driveway, approximately? 13 A: About five (5) minutes. 14 Q: Okay. Did you -- 15 A: At least I thought it was five (5) 16 minutes. 17 Q: Did you -- what did you do next? 18 A: Well, we waited there and it seemed 19 like forever and nobody coming along. And we thought, 20 well, if we go down the road we would come to the next 21 intersection and if -- and we figured if an ambulance was 22 coming, it would be coming from Strathroy because we were 23 closer to there then. 24 And we figured because of the two (2) 25 roads going by there, we thought we would sit there. And
1581 if the ambulance came down the 402 it would still have to 2 go by us, and if it came down the road we were on, it 3 would be right -- it would be right there. 4 Q: All right. So you -- you assumed 5 that if you waited at this intersection, you would meet 6 the -- the ambulance? It would have to pass you? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Can I just ask -- ask you, did -- did 9 you tell the farmer or did Pierre tell the brother in 10 your presence that -- that you were intending to go to 11 Strathroy? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I -- I just assumed that it's -- of 15 myself, you know, like Strathroy was pretty close to 16 where we were. 17 Q: All right. It was the closest 18 hospital to you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And can you show me on this 21 map, is the intersection that you stopped at on this map? 22 Or is it on the next one? 23 A: No. It would be at -- it would be 24 right there. 25 Q: All right. So you're pointing at the
1591 intersection of Nauvoo and Eagermount or -- 2 A: Evermount. 3 Q: -- County Road 22, also known as? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And on your map, would you kindly do 6 two (2) things for me. Mark -- 7 A: An X? 8 Q: -- with an X where the approximate 9 location of the farmhouse was and put a 1 beside that. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And with another X, and 2, the 12 intersection at which you stopped with your brother in 13 the car. 14 A: (INDICATING) 15 Q: Thank you. Now did you have any -- 16 any sense in your mind as to how long you thought it 17 should take the ambulance to meet up with you? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: I figured where we were it shouldn't 22 have been no more than twenty (20) minutes. 23 Q: From where you were, meaning what 24 location? 25 A: From the farmhouse.
1601 Q: Okay. And what was the basis of your 2 estimate? 3 A: Normally it takes about forty-five 4 (45) minutes to get to Strathroy. 5 Q: Okay. And so why twenty (20) -- 6 A: And I figured we were about half way, 7 so. 8 Q: Okay. So you mean from -- from the 9 Army Camp, about forty-five (45) minutes? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. Okay, fair enough. And 12 did you wait at the intersection then, for a while? 13 A: Yes, we waited there, too. 14 Q: How long do you estimate you waited 15 at the intersection? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Well, it seemed like forever, but I 20 think it was probably about five (5) minutes. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: It was almost like we realized that 23 no one was coming to help. And Dudley was just going to 24 die if we sat there. So we decided to go ahead to at 25 least try and get there.
1611 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: Flat tire or not. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: But we didn't want to just sit there 5 and let him die. 6 Q: Okay. And at that point in time, it 7 was your belief that he was still alive? 8 A: Yes. JT told us that Dudley's heart 9 was still beating when we were at the hospital. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: If Dudley's heart would have stopped 12 beating, JT would have told us. 13 Q: And to your knowledge, did he 14 continue to apply pressure to the wound? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, while you were waiting at the 17 intersection of Eagermount and Nauvoo Roads did you see 18 any police cars whatsoever? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you see any ambulance pass? 21 A: No. 22 Q: I'd like you to now move to the third 23 part of the map, please. And just for the records it's 24 marked, Page 23 of Inquiry Document Number 5000004 and 25 just take a moment to orient yourself. Can you -- thank
1621 you. Can you locate Eagermount Drive for us? 2 A: This. Oh, you want it on here? 3 Q: Yes, please. All right. And now 4 would you please, as you are doing, show us the routes. 5 You went east along Eagermount Drive to what street? 6 Centre Road? 7 A: Yes. I'm not really sure, because -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- I -- I had never been there 10 before. 11 Q: To Strathroy? 12 A: No, to the hospital. 13 Q: Oh, to the hospital? Okay. So you 14 turned -- did you turn into Strathroy from Eagermount? Is 15 that fair? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And then you travelled 18 directly to the hospital? 19 A: Pierre was driving and I assumed he 20 knew the way since he had been there before. 21 Q: Okay. And on this part of the route 22 -- or firstly, I'll ask you to kindly mark as best you 23 can on -- on your map in front of you, the route that you 24 believe you took. 25
1631 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: All right. Thank you. Now during 4 this last part of the route, did you see any ambulance in 5 your vicinity? 6 A: Not -- not near us, no. 7 Q: Did you see any police cars? 8 A: Going into Strathroy there was 9 streets we had to go by and there was, you know like, the 10 intersection. There was police cars both sides, facing 11 to the street. 12 Q: Facing into the intersection? 13 A: Into -- well, we were on the street 14 and they were facing to the street. 15 Q: Okay. All right. And did you go by 16 these police cars? 17 A: Yes, we went by them. 18 Q: Did they try to stop you? 19 A: I don't think so. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I -- I don't know whether their 22 lights were flashing or not, but they were just sitting 23 there, they -- 24 Q: Okay. So you went by them and did 25 you notice what, if anything, the police cars did as you
1641 went -- or after you went by them? 2 A: The police cars? They came behind 3 us. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And Pierre got kind of worried then 6 and I says, Well, I think they probably know we're going 7 to the hospital. If they were -- if they're going to do 8 anything, they'll just do it there. 9 Q: All right. And as a result did 10 Pierre stop at all? 11 A: At the emergency. 12 Q: He didn't stop until he got to the 13 hospital? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- and just so that I know, did 16 you see or hear any attempt by the police officers to ask 17 you to stop or to pull over? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. All right. Now you 20 indicated that Pierre drove into the hospital or to the 21 hospital? 22 A: I'm here. No. No, he just drove up 23 to Emergency. 24 Q: The Emergency door? Okay. 25 A: Yes.
1651 Q: And at that point did he stop? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recall approximately what time 4 this would have been? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And you indicated a little bit 7 earlier that at this point in time that -- that JT 8 indicated that Dudley's heart was still beating? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Now can you tell me, just 11 as carefully as you can, what happens at the moment you 12 stopped the car or at least Pierre stops the car at the 13 Emergency Department parking lot? 14 A: He stopped the car, we hopped out, 15 there was an attendant standing by the door and I said, 16 bring a stretcher. And I turned around to -- to get the 17 back door and the attendant was still standing there so I 18 got a bit upset and told him to bring a stretcher. 19 Q: You can -- you can be as -- you know 20 as -- as -- 21 A: Use my own words? 22 Q: Precise as possible, yes. 23 A: Bring a fucking stretcher. 24 Q: And then what happened? 25 A: I seen the police nod his head.
1661 Q: And where was the police standing? 2 A: He was right up by the -- by the 3 hospital doors there and once he nodded his head I 4 noticed the attendant started to move, but -- and that's 5 when they grabbed me. 6 Q: Now tell -- tell me, who grabbed you? 7 A: It was the police because they 8 grabbed my arms and put them -- put them behind my back 9 and put me right down on the ground and I'm -- my face 10 went right through some shrubs and got my glasses knocked 11 off. And I was trying to ask them to let me see my 12 brother. 13 Q: Your -- your brother Dudley? 14 A: My brother Dudley, yes. 15 Q: And do you recall the number of 16 police officers who -- who were in the process of 17 detaining you? The number of police officers arou -- 18 involved in -- in -- 19 A: I don't know how many were behind me. 20 I -- I could barely see that Pierre was held up against 21 the -- the wall, the cement wall and like his face right 22 up against it. And I don't if that's when they -- you 23 know like, Pierre was asking what they were doing and 24 they said we were under arrest for attempted murder. 25 And -- and Pierre said something like well
1671 for what? And they said the first shot came out of a 2 white car. 3 Q: And what did you understand that to - 4 - to mean if -- if -- 5 A: Well I didn't understand why they 6 were arresting me in the first place because we were just 7 taking Dudley to the hospital and then to be handcuffed 8 and they wouldn't even let me see Dudley. I -- I didn't 9 know what was going on. 10 Q: And during the process you indicated 11 that -- that you were put down to the ground with your 12 face through bushes? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that your glasses were knocked 15 off? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that you were handcuffed? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And your -- were you handcuffed 20 behind your back? 21 A: Behind my back. 22 Q: And during this process, were you at 23 all struggling? 24 A: Yes, I was struggling because I -- I 25 -- like we were attempting to get Dudley out of the car
1681 and -- and they grabbed my arms and I just wanted to get 2 Dudley out and get him -- get somebody to look at him. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And I wanted to see how he was. 5 Q: And were you able to -- did you -- 6 were you able to -- did you tell the police officers that 7 that was your brother in -- in the car? 8 A: No, I think I must have been in shock 9 or something that -- that I didn't understand why they 10 were arresting me. And -- 11 Q: All right. Could you see -- could 12 you see what was happening to Dudley at this point? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Could you see what was happening to 15 JT? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Could you hear what was happening 18 with respect to Dudley? 19 A: I never seen Dudley after that. I 20 mean, from trying to get him out of the car -- 21 Q: As I understand it, then, when the 22 arrests started you were at the car door trying to remove 23 Dudley from the back seat. Is that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And how long do you think
1691 your face was in the bushes? 2 A: Not really that long. 3 Q: And when -- I presume you were put 4 back on your feet? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at that time could you see your 7 brother Dudley? 8 A: It was like they took us right -- put 9 us in a police car and took us right out of there. 10 Q: All right. So immediately putting on 11 -- you on your feet, then -- then you were put into a 12 cruiser. Is that right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And was your brother Pierre in the 15 same cruiser? 16 A: I'm pretty sure he was. 17 Q: All right. And do you know where JT 18 was? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And were you able to -- to look back 21 out the -- the -- well, what happened to the police 22 cruiser that you were put on -- into? 23 A: They took off with us. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I don't remember if I had my glasses
1701 on. I can't see too much without them unless it's a 2 paper up close. 3 Q: All right. Now, in the course of -- 4 of putting your arms behind you, did you feel any 5 discomfort? 6 A: Just before that I was -- I had hurt 7 my shoulder at work. 8 Q: Is that your right shoulder? 9 A: My right shoulder and I was off work 10 to give it some time to heal and then the way it was put 11 back there that made it very, very sore. I -- I still 12 have trouble with it today. 13 Q: Now, when -- when you were in the 14 process of being arrested you indicated that the police 15 officer or officers told you that you were being -- you 16 and Pierre were being arrested for attempted murder? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did they advise you anything else 19 with respect to your rights, for example? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: At the moment that you left your 22 brother Dudley and placed into the cruiser did you 23 believe him to be still alive? 24 A: Yes, I did. JT didn't tell me any 25 different. He said his heart was still beating when we
1711 got there. 2 Q: All right. Now, in the car, did you 3 have any conversation with the police officers? 4 A: I don't know. I probably was still 5 telling them that I wanted to see my brother and how he 6 was doing. 7 Q: And did a police officer at any time 8 respond to your request to see your brother, either in 9 the cruiser or when you were in the parking lot? 10 A: No, they just took us right to jail. 11 Q: Okay. What happened to you -- or I 12 should say, what occurred once you were taken to the 13 police detachment? 14 A: I was put in one (1) cell and Pierre 15 was put in the cell next to me. When I got inside the 16 cell, they took the handcuffs off me and I went and sat 17 down on the bunk. And I turned around and looked and 18 there was a cedar leaf laying on the floor. Cedar is one 19 of our medicines. 20 And to me that was a sign from the Creator 21 that -- that medicine was in between and them and I had 22 the protection of the Creator. And even if things didn't 23 look good right than and there, that it would turn out 24 all right because the Creator give me that sign. 25 Q: Did you feel that you needed the
1721 protection of the Creator while you were in the jail? 2 A: Yes. The police just shot my 3 brother. I didn't know whether I was ever going to get 4 out of that jail again. There was other Native people 5 who have been in prison all of their lives for what has 6 been said against them. I thought I'd be the next one 7 spending the rest of my life in jail. 8 Q: Now were you allowed -- were you 9 searched at all? 10 A: Yeah, I'm sure I was searched. I 11 don't know whether, you know, like whether it was right 12 at the jail or they kind of frisked me quick when they 13 arrested me or -- I know they did though. 14 Q: Did you -- were you allowed to keep 15 your clothes that night? 16 A: No. They took them, gave us hospital 17 gowns. 18 Q: Do you recall at what point in time 19 your clothes were removed? 20 A: I was sure it wasn't long after we 21 got there. 22 Q: Did you ever receive your clothes 23 back? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you remember approximately
1731 when -- when it was you received them back? 2 A: I think that would be approximately 3 about three (3) years ago now. It was two (2) or three 4 (3) years ago. Pierre requested them back and they gave 5 them back to us. 6 Q: And when you received your clothes 7 back did they -- were they provided in a -- in a bag? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And were there tags on that bag? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: I'm going to show you a bag and ask 12 you 13 -- ask you if you can identify it. I should indicate, 14 Commissioner, that I've just received this bag so My 15 Friends haven't had a chance to look at it yet. But I'll 16 just see if the -- the witness can identify it. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Oh yes. 21 Q: And is that the bag that you received 22 containing your clothes? 23 A: My cigarettes were in there too. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: After that many years.
1741 Q: And there were two (2) tags on it. 2 Were those tags on the bag when you received them? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now the one tag reads 'Ontario 5 Provincial Police Exhibit Number 20' and date, time 6 collected is September 7, 1995, at 05:13, do you see 7 that? 8 A: 05:13 there, yeah. 9 Q: And then there's a long tag and it 10 reads 'The Ministry of the Solicitor General, Type of 11 Sample: Property, Date: September 7, 1995, Time: 0:22'. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now seeing those two (2) different 14 times, that is 12:22 a.m. and 5:13 a.m., can you help me 15 out with what time approximately your clothes were likely 16 collected? 17 A: I thought it wasn't long after we got 18 there. 19 Q: All right. And do you recall 20 21 with what time, approximately, your clothes were likely 22 collected? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1751 A: I thought it wasn't long after we got 2 there. 3 Q: All right. And do you recall 4 approximately what time, then, you got there? 5 Approximately? 6 A: No, I didn't have my watch on. I 7 didn't know what time it was. 8 Q: Fair enough, all right. Thank you. 9 I'd like to make that the next exhibit, Commissioner? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: 151. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 151. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-151: Empty plastic bag containing 15 personal items of Carolyn 16 George tagged "OPP Exhibit 17 No. 020 Collected Sept 07/95 18 05:13 hrs and Minister of the 19 Solicitor General 1J97312 20 Sept 07/95 00:22 21 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella, 24 do you want to take a break this afternoon or skip it? 25 I'm not sure that we can let the witness go right
1761 through. 2 We're going to break at 3:30 and it's 3 already almost 2:30. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, I -- perhaps we 5 should take a brief -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 7 should take a short break -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- break -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and then 10 continue to 3:30. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 13 right? 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for ten (10) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 2:25 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 2:40 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Thank you. Now, at some point while 25 you were at the detachment, were you asked to make a
1771 statement to the police or were you interviewed by the 2 police? 3 A: Yeah, they were asking me if I knew 4 what had happened but I told them I wasn't there and -- 5 Q: Were you advised that you had the 6 right to contact a lawyer in advance to speaking with the 7 police? 8 A: I don't really recall, but -- and 9 like, we -- they -- I didn't know who to call anyways to 10 -- like -- 11 Q: Were -- were you aware that -- that 12 you had the -- the right to remain silent? 13 A: Yeah, I watch TV shows. 14 Q: Okay. And as a result did you -- did 15 you decline to provide them with the answers to their 16 questions? Do you recall? 17 A: I don't really recall, but I don't 18 think I was ready to give any answers because I didn't 19 really know a lot -- what happened. 20 Q: Do you recall approximately what time 21 this interview took place? 22 A: No, not really. 23 Q: I wonder if you would kindly look at 24 your Tab 3 and it's Inquiry Document Number 5000146 and 25 that's page 1 of a -- it appears to be a statement.
1781 A: Okay, I see this. 2 Q: And it's dated September 7, 1995. 3 Time started is recorded as 6:14 a.m. and the time 4 completed 6:45 a.m. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it says that you may be charged 7 with attempt to commit murder contrary to Section 239 of 8 the Criminal Code of Canada. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And under the section do you 11 understand this charge? It says: 12 "I understand it, I'm falsely charged." 13 A: Yeah, I remember the -- 14 Q: Do you recall saying something like 15 that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And a little bit further down there's 18 a -- you're being advised of -- of your right to put you 19 in contact with a Legal Aid Duty Counsel lawyer for free 20 and: "Do you understand this right?" 21 And -- and the answer recorded is: 22 "My answer -- my lawyer says, Yeah, 23 don't say anything." 24 And then there's a question: 25 "Do you wish to call a lawyer?
1791 A: I don't see no reason to bother 2 him again." 3 Do you see that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, do you -- does that help refresh 6 your memory in relation to whether or not you were 7 advised of your right to contact a lawyer? 8 A: Yeah, because we -- we had called 9 Spike. 10 Q: Spike? Is that Ron George? 11 A: Ron George. 12 Q: All right. And is he related to you? 13 A: He's a cousin. 14 Q: And at the time was he also a -- a 15 practising lawyer to your knowledge? 16 A: To my knowledge. 17 Q: And did you call him in -- in his 18 capacity as a lawyer? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. I'd like to make that the 21 next exhibit, Commissioner. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-152. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 152. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-152: Document 5000146, Page 01
1801 September 07/95, 06:14-06:45 2 Hrs, Carolyn George Re: OPP 3 Declaration. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: And if you would look over at Tab 4, 7 Inquiry Document Number 5000148, it's a separate Inquiry 8 document number, but it appears to be a continuation of 9 the statement as page 2 of Carolyn Joyce George 10 statement. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And it appears to be a transcript of 15 a conversation between yourself and the police officer 16 named Harwood (phonetic). Does that -- do you recall 17 that? 18 A: Yeah, it sounds like something I 19 would have said. 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether that was 21 a interview that -- that occurred at approximately 6:15 22 a.m. on September the 7th? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1811 A: Could you say that again? 2 Q: Do you recall whether this is part of 3 the -- the interview that started at 6:15 a.m? 4 A: Yeah, that would be. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And it indicates that a supplementary 9 caution was re-read and the -- advice given to you as to 10 what it meant, whether or not -- giving you the right to 11 speak to the police officer or not. 12 Do you recall that being told to you 13 again? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And in that respect, you indicate 16 later on that you've just been woken up and that you're 17 under duress and not feeling well. Do you recall that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Were -- were you, in fact, not 20 feeling well at that point? 21 A: I'd say I wasn't feeling very well, 22 considering everything that had happened. 23 Q: All right. And I understand that -- 24 well, I should make this the next exhibit, Commissioner. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-153.
1821 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 153, thank 2 you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-153: Document 5000148 OPP 5 Declaration, September 07/95, 6 06:14 Hrs to 06:45 Hrs re Ms. 7 Carolyn George's Statement. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: And I understand that the -- that you 11 do -- that you have a medical condition? 12 A: I'm hypoglycemic. 13 Q: All right. And can you just tell me 14 what that means for you? 15 A: I have low blood sugar which requires 16 me to eat smaller meals more often. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Like breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, 19 supper, snack. 20 Q: And had that -- had you raised your 21 medical condition during the course of that evening in -- 22 in the jail? 23 A: I don't think I said anything then 24 because it was like -- I didn't think they were listening 25 to me -- what I was saying anyways.
1831 Q: Well, okay. Let me ask you this, 2 then. Did you, in fact, call your cousin Ron George 3 prior to this interview? 4 A: Yeah, we had called him through the 5 night there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: We felt we should let somebody know 8 what was happening to us. 9 Q: Okay. And I'm not asking you to 10 reveal the details of the communications between yourself 11 and your lawyer as that -- you're entitled to -- to a 12 solicitor/client privilege over that conversation; but I 13 am interested to know that you did contact your lawyer 14 that night. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did he come and visit you at some 17 point? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall when it was he 20 came? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Was it before this interview or 23 after? 24 A: It would have been before because he 25 was there through the -- through the night.
1841 Q: Okay, fair enough. Now -- thank you. 2 All right. Now, I just want to go back to the night time 3 that you were in the jail, before this interview occurs 4 and did you know what was happening to Pierre and JT? 5 A: Pierre was next to me. I couldn't 6 see him or anything, there was a big wall; but I knew he 7 was on the next -- in the cell next to me. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I didn't know where JT was. 10 Q: And as you were sitting in your -- 11 well, let me ask, as you were sitting in your cell, what 12 -- what thoughts were going through your mind? 13 A: Well, considering the charge that 14 they had us there for, I -- I did think that, quite 15 possibly, I'd be spending the rest of my life in jail. 16 Q: Did the police tell you at anytime 17 what the condition of your brother Dudley was? 18 A: No. They never said anything and 19 when we first got there I -- I told them about Dudley's 20 medical conditions and that, you know, like if they were 21 going to be treating him that they should be watching out 22 for -- like was allergic to penicillin and he shouldn't 23 have that, and that he had a heart murmur. 24 Q: And to your -- did they advise you 25 that they would relay that information to the hospital?
1851 A: More or less, yes; that they would do 2 that. 3 Q: Did you ask them to keep you advised 4 as to the status of his medical condition? 5 A: No. I didn't think they were going 6 to tell us anything anyways. 7 Q: And in -- in fact, they didn't tell 8 you the status of his condition? 9 A: No, they didn't. 10 Q: So as you sat in your cell, then, you 11 -- you didn't know what -- where JT was, you didn't know 12 what the medical condition of Dudley was and you didn't 13 know what was going to be happening to you? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Did you know where your children were 16 at this point? 17 A: Well, that was another thing I was 18 worried about. I didn't know what was happening to 19 anyone at Stoney Point. I didn't know whether my 20 children were okay or if the police were going to go in 21 there and shoot them next. 22 And it was like we were in limbo where we 23 were stuck right there and we were not getting no 24 communications, like to know what was going on with 25 anyone or whether, you know, like my children were okay.
1861 Q: Were you permitted to make any phone 2 calls to find out about your children? 3 A: Pierre made his one phone call to his 4 girlfriend or woman and I made my -- my phone call was to 5 the lawyer. 6 Q: Okay. All right. And so at that 7 point did you find out about your children? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Now do you know what happened to -- 10 to Pierre's car? The car that drove -- that was driven 11 to the parking lot at the hospital? 12 A: They impounded it at the police 13 station. 14 Q: And to your knowledge were there any 15 firearms in Pierre's car when they found it? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And where there any firearms on the 18 persons of you or any of the passengers in the car or 19 Pierre himself? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Was there ever any claim made to you 22 by the police that they had found firearms in your car -- 23 in the car? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you -- while you were at the
1871 jail, did you raise your -- your own medical condition at 2 any point to any police officer? 3 A: Not 'til the following day. 4 Q: And can you just tell me about that? 5 A: They brought us something to eat 6 about -- I would say about ten o'clock in the morning and 7 it was McDonald's food. I don't normally eat there and 8 it's kind of like processed food. It -- I -- my 9 hypoglycemia, I'm suppose to have high protein, low 10 carbohydrate, diet, solid foods, no processed. 11 And they brought me that about ten o'clock 12 and I was already -- I had already missed breakfast time 13 for eating. Then they brought me that of which was no 14 food value. 15 And I said I never usually eat McDonald's 16 anyways and I didn't want to eat that. And -- and I was 17 getting concerned that, you know, like, I have fainted 18 before from not eating on schedule and, like, by that 19 time then I was getting concerned and that's -- I wanted 20 to call a lawyer. 21 Well, I was upset about that and then one 22 (1) of the police in there, he goes, Ha, ha, ha, it looks 23 like you need to eat. I am a little bit overweight but 24 that's kind of the territory when you have to eat that 25 much.
1881 And, I mean, I shouldn't eat as much, but 2 -- but I didn't think it was nice of him to say that. 3 And -- and I did complain about him that I didn't want 4 him around me anymore and, you know, like. So they -- 5 they took him away but after that then I was wanting to 6 call a lawyer to tell him that, you know, like, if -- 7 if -- 8 Q: Well, I don't think you need to tell 9 me what you were telling your lawyer. But as a result of 10 the phone call to your lawyer, did anything happen? 11 A: Yeah, they released us then. 12 Q: Okay. Now when and how did you 13 eventually learn of your brother's fate? 14 A: My brother Sam came in. 15 Q: Came into the jail? 16 A: To the jail, to tell us that Dudley 17 died. 18 Q: Do you -- do you remember how long 19 you had been in -- in the jail when he came? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I think it was about at least a hour, 24 maybe two (2). 25 Q: Two (2) hours, one (1) to two (2)
1891 hours later, okay. 2 A: I didn't really know how long we'd 3 been there. 4 Q: All right. And to your knowledge, 5 based on your observations, did Sam know that -- realize 6 that you had -- had not been told in advance of your 7 brother's fate? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Could you repeat that? 12 Q: Certainly. To your knowledge, did 13 Sam know whether or not you had already been told about 14 Dudley's fate? 15 A: I -- I don't -- I don't think so. I 16 think he -- he came to let us know himself. 17 Q: All right. And what were your 18 emotions when you learned of this? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I was very upset. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1901 A: I figured there was a lot of ways 2 that Dudley could still be alive if we -- you know, like, 3 I'd gotten some help along the way. Well, even if the 4 police didn't start shooting. But... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: To my knowledge, Dudley was still 9 alive when we got to the hospital and they wouldn't even 10 -- even help -- you know, like bring out a stretcher. I 11 felt like Dudley didn't -- didn't -- shouldn't have died. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Who else was with you, aside from 16 yourself and Sam when he gave you this news? 17 A: I don't even recall, like it's -- I 18 became very upset when I found out that Dudley had died. 19 Q: Were you in a -- in a private room 20 when you were told? 21 A: In the jail cell. 22 Q: In -- in your jail cell or -- okay. 23 And do you know how long Sam was with you? 24 A: Just a little while. 25 Q: And then he had to leave? Yes?
1911 A: Yes. I'm sorry. 2 Q: No, not at all. Did you speak or -- 3 did you speak with anyone else about Dudley's fate that 4 night? 5 A: Probably a little bit with Spike, 6 but -- 7 Q: With your lawyer? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Were you allowed to talk to Pierre 10 about -- 11 A: I could speak -- 12 Q: -- about this? 13 A: We could hear each other, but I 14 didn't want to be saying anything that the police might 15 misconstrue or say I said this or I done that or 16 whatever. And I didn't want to become overly upset 17 because I was afraid Pierre would get really upset, too, 18 Q: And so you essentially just stayed in 19 your cell quietly? 20 A: Basically ,yes. 21 Q: Now you -- you indicated that you 22 were released the next day after a phone call to your 23 lawyer? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you recall approximately what time
1921 of day you were released on the 7th? 2 A: I think it was about ten (10) after 3 4:00. 4 Q: In the afternoon? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you were released did the 7 police advise you as to why you were being released? 8 A: No, they -- I just figured it was 9 because of the call in to Spike. 10 Q: All right. Were any conditions 11 attached to your release, to your knowledge? 12 A: No. 13 Q: When you found out you -- well, were 14 your -- you indicated earlier that your clothes weren't 15 released for some time after the fact, so did -- did you 16 have any clothes to wear when you left? 17 A: Pierre, he was talking to his woman 18 and he -- she -- she brought clothes for us. 19 Q: All right. How about for JT? 20 A: JT was trying to phone to get himself 21 some clothes and -- and it just happened that Pierre's 22 woman had brought the clothes just about the time they 23 released us. So we had a ride, you know, like, 24 otherwise, you know, like they would have released us and 25 -- and -- and said, Go, but there wouldn't be no ride,
1931 which happened to JT. 2 They told him, You can go, but he didn't 3 have no ride, no clothes and because he was released the 4 same time as us and -- and we just asked him, Do you want 5 to go with us or do you want to wait until your family 6 gets here with your clothes? And he just says, No, I'll 7 go in these -- in his hospital gown and paper slippers. 8 Q: All right. And as you left the -- 9 the jail or the detachment, what was your understanding 10 with respect to the status of the charge of attempted 11 murder as against you? 12 A: I believe that when called to Spike I 13 told him, Tell them to either charge me or get me out of 14 here, either or. If they're going to do something, let's 15 -- because I want, you know like, it's either, you know, 16 like they were going to charge me or they were going to 17 have to let me go. 18 Q: All right. All right. So is it your 19 impression that you never formally charged? 20 A: No. I -- what I thought it was, I 21 was arrested for attempted murder, but I was never 22 charged. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now did you 24 experience any incidents on the way home? 25 A: Yes.
1941 Q: Can you tell me what happened? 2 A: Oh, that was -- Mouse driving us 3 home. 4 Q: Sorry, who's Mouse? 5 A: My sister Mouse. 6 Q: Okay. Her -- her other name is? 7 A: Pamela. 8 Q: Thank you. All right. 9 A: We got pulled over. 10 Q: By whom? 11 A: By police with great big rifles and 12 Pierre jumped out of the car and I jumped out too. And 13 we were, What's going on. And -- and they said, Get back 14 in the car. And -- and Pierre's like, Get back in there, 15 get back in there. 16 And -- and they were holding their rifles 17 on us. You know, like just banging on that whole bunch 18 around us and it was very scary and Pierre told them that 19 we had been released from jail and we were allowed to go 20 back to Stoney Point because they -- they said they 21 weren't letting, you know, like really letting anybody 22 through there. 23 Q: So it was a -- a roadblock, to your 24 knowledge? 25 A: I think it was. Because we had to
1951 stop. 2 Q: And were you still within the city 3 limits of Strathroy? 4 A: No, no. this was closer to home. 5 Q: All right. Do you recall where this 6 occurred? 7 A: It might have been on Jericho 8 (phonetic) Road. 9 Q: All right. Okay and on your way back 10 to the army camp? 11 A: On the way back, yeah. We were just 12 a couple of roads over then. 13 Q: And what was going through your mind 14 as -- as there were rifles drawn? 15 A: I thought they were going to start 16 shooting. I jumped back in the car pretty quick so that 17 they wouldn't. 18 Q: Do you recall how many police 19 officers were actually outside of their cars with rifles? 20 A: There was at least two (2) right 21 there. One (1) in front and then another one come around 22 and I, as I said, I got scared and I jumped back in the 23 car. 24 Q: All right. And did anything further 25 happen after Pierre provided his explanation to the
1961 police? 2 A: They let us go. 3 Q: Did you have any other encounters or 4 incidents on the way back home? 5 A: No. Just -- just that one (1) and we 6 went back home. 7 Q: Now when you got back home what did 8 you find? 9 A: There was people all over the place. 10 All kinds of chiefs and stuff, over in the drill hall 11 going to have a meeting. 12 Q: All right. And could you tell me, 13 did you go down to the Park or to the command post that - 14 - were you aware there was a command post set up off of 15 East Parkway Drive? 16 A: I was aware afterwards. After 17 getting home there. 18 Q: And on the 7th of September, did you 19 go down to that -- either the Park or to the command post 20 area? 21 A: I don't think so. 22 Q: At any time did you see or collect 23 any bullet casings? 24 A: No. Not me. 25 Q: What was the ultimate disposition of
1971 the charges or, at least, the -- the circumstances 2 arising from the arrest? Did you ever have to go to 3 court? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you know -- were they ever 6 pursued? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Now, you told me a little bit earlier 9 that at the hospital when you were being arrested and 10 detained, the police said to you that shots had come from 11 a white car. 12 A: The first shot came from a white car. 13 Q: All right. And I think you said to 14 them at the time you didn't really have an understanding 15 as to what that meant? 16 A: No, I didn't. The white car we were 17 in was parked up at the gate. It was Pierre's car and 18 Pierre was watching the gate and he had his car sitting 19 right in the gateway. If anybody come in, he'd have -- 20 he would move his car and then put it right back there. 21 Q: All right. So basically, that night, 22 the night of the 6th, Pierre's car was -- was at the main 23 gate? 24 A: Yes, sitting right where the cars 25 pull right in. It was highly visible.
1981 Q: All right. Did you subsequently 2 learn of -- that there was a car that was involved in a 3 shooting down at the Park? 4 A: Not a white one, though. 5 Q: All right. Do you recall whose car 6 that was? 7 A: Waldo's car? 8 Q: Warren George? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: I mean, yes. 12 Q: That's fine. And -- and were you 13 familiar with his car at that time? 14 A: Not really. 15 Q: Did you know what colour it was? 16 A: It was a brown -- 17 Q: All right. Now I'm showing you a 18 picture of a car, it's part of Exhibit P-24 and it's 19 Photo 19.0A. Do you recognize that car? 20 A: Is that Pierre's? 21 Q: That's what I'm asking you, do you 22 know? 23 A: Well, it don't look the same today. 24 Q: No, but I understand this photograph 25 was taken close to the event.
1991 A: It's a big boat like Pierre's, yeah. 2 Q: All right. And I wonder if you could 3 put up the next photograph? And this is from the same 4 exhibit, Exhibit P-24 and it's photograph Mag 42 or 7.12. 5 6 Do you recognize that car? 7 A: Not really. I'm not good with cars, 8 though. 9 Q: All right. Well, I can tell you that 10 others have identified this as Warren George's car. 11 A: I wasn't really familiar with his car 12 before then and when I did see it afterwards it had dust 13 on it. 14 Q: All right. Fair enough. 15 A: So it would be a lighter colour. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: A dust colour. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. Did you 19 suffer any physical injuries which you attribute to the 20 arrest? 21 A: Well, I said my shoulder is still 22 sore. I'm told I have arthritis in it now and I -- my 23 arms did get all bruised up when I was being arrested. 24 Q: Were any photographs taken of your 25 bruises?
2001 A: Yes. 2 Q: And who took photographs? 3 A: Graham George. 4 Q: Is that your brother? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Oh, sorry. How is he related to you? 7 8 A: Cousin. 9 Q: Thank you. I'm showing you a 10 photograph, it's identified as Number 1. And, 11 Commissioner, these are photographs I've acquired which I 12 have not been able to disclose to My Friends but will 13 certainly make copies available to them after today. 14 Is this a photograph of yourself? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And taken by Graham? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what was that photograph 19 attempting to depict? 20 A: The bruises on my arms. 21 Q: All right. Can you go to the next 22 photograph, please? Number 2. Again, is this you in the 23 photograph? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And again taken by Graham?
2011 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you recall approximately what 3 date these photographs were taken? 4 A: I think they were taken at the next 5 day. I don't know whether it was when we came home, when 6 we got home from jail that day or it was the next day 7 afterwards. 8 Q: So either the 7th or the 8th of -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- September, 1995? And were there 11 bruises there on that part of your arm? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you show us where approximately? 14 A: On that arm? 15 Q: On that arm. 16 A: Most of the ways up. 17 Q: Most of the way up on your forearm? 18 A: Forearm, up to my elbow. 19 Q: All right. If you now go to 20 photograph Number 7, please. And this is a photograph of 21 your left arm, now. Did you have bruises there? 22 A: Yeah, you could see these ones. 23 Q: And can you just use the pointer to 24 demonstrate where the bruises were? 25 A: Right in there.
2021 Q: All right. Okay. 2 A: And I had more down in there, too, 3 like. 4 Q: Okay. Were they smaller bruises 5 close to your wrist? 6 A: More like fingers, you know, like 7 lines from how fingers would be -- 8 Q: Grasped around your wrist? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Go to photograph Number 8, 13 please. This is the back of your right arm. And were 14 there bruises there? 15 A: There must have been. 16 Q: Do you recall? 17 A: Yeah, I had bruises all up my arms. 18 Q: All right. And photograph Number 10, 19 please. This is your right arm towards your shoulder. 20 Were there bruises there? 21 A: Yes, up in there, too, because that's 22 kind of where I think they grabbed me first of all. 23 Q: All right. And photograph 11. This 24 is your left arm, now? 25 A: Oh, you can really see them bruises,
2031 eh? Yeah. That's -- 2 Q: Those were the bruises that you 3 attributed to the -- that you attribute to the arrest? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And finally Photograph 6 13, please. And this is your right arm, back of it, 7 towards your shoulder; were there bruises there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: We have these photographs on a CD Rom 10 and I propose to make the CD Rom the next exhibit. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: 154. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 154. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-154: Photographs No. 1, 17 2,,7,8,10,11, & 13 Taken 18 September 07 or September 19 08/95 on CD Rom. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Did you receive any medical treatment 23 in relation to these injuries? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You indicated that you had a pre-
2041 existing injury in your shoulder? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did this -- the arrest aggravate that 4 injury at all? 5 A: Yes, it did. 6 Q: And in what respect? 7 A: I can't really use my arm, you know, 8 like to pick up any weight or anything. 9 Q: And so you were able to use your arm 10 before the incident in that respect? 11 A: I was off of work, because at the 12 time what we were doing, we were carrying big pails of 13 water, like five (5) gallon pails, sham -- shampooing the 14 carpets -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And when I hurt my arm, I couldn't 17 carry those pails any more so I was taking some time off 18 to get my arm, I mean my shoulder, in better shape for, 19 you know, like, the school year. 20 Q: Yes. And at -- before your arrest, 21 had you any specific -- how much progress had your 22 healing made? 23 A: I think I -- I was supposed to be off 24 of work maybe one (1) two (2) more weeks at the most. 25 Q: All right. And were you able to go
2051 back to work then within that one (1) to two (2) weeks? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And is that as a result of the -- the 4 injuries? 5 A: Not so much the injuries. But I was 6 really -- I'd say traumatized. I was really afraid to go 7 anywhere. I was scared the police would be shooting me 8 next. 9 Q: This is even after you were released 10 from jail? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And how long did that fear -- how 13 long did you have that fear for? 14 A: I still don't trust the police today. 15 They were like always there, anytime I would leave the -- 16 the Stoney Point it would be like within five (5) minutes 17 there would be a police car following me and -- and I was 18 just afraid that, you know, like -- like they already 19 killed my brother. What's to stop them from killing me? 20 Q: Did you -- you said that the police 21 cars would follow you? 22 A: I don't know if they were having 23 regular patrols or anything but I know I'd be only out on 24 the road and within five (5) minutes or so they'd be 25 right there.
2061 Q: Is this subsequent to your release 2 from jail? 3 A: Yes. And -- it -- it was really 4 upsetting to me and -- and I complained about it and the 5 guys at Stoney there, they were getting mad too and they 6 were telling those guys just, you know, why do they got 7 to follow me around and -- and keep upsetting me. 8 And even at that time they -- they would - 9 - they said they wouldn't be following me so much, but 10 then after that, well, the black and white cars went away 11 so much but then there was plain cars that would be 12 following me. 13 Q: Well did these -- did -- did these 14 cars pull you over or attempt to pull you over? 15 A: I don't know if they -- you know, I 16 can't recall whether they were specifically pulling me 17 over. But it was always like they were always there just 18 -- just harassing me. 19 Q: How -- how long did you observe this 20 pattern? 21 A: It went on for a while but eventually 22 my doctor told me to go back to work and -- and like in 23 January he says maybe that will help me get over being so 24 nervous and if I got back to my regular schedule. 25 Q: Yes.
2071 A: So I went back to work. 2 Q: In January of '96? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And -- 6 Q: Did that help? 7 A: It was good to, you know, to be out 8 doing other things again and I, you know, I thought I 9 would give it a try -- try and get myself back to living 10 -- trying to live a normal life. 11 And I was there at work for a while and -- 12 and there would be the nights though, you know, like I 13 worked usually 4:00 'til midnight and then the way I come 14 home I would come around that one building where the 15 lights are down there but there's a building on the 16 corner and then as I would come by there, cops would 17 come right out behind there and they'd come right up 18 behind me and -- 19 Q: And where is this, I'm sorry. 20 A: Just the main intersection. 21 Q: In Forest here? 22 A: In Forest. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I worked in Forest here. 25 Q: Okay.
2081 A: And the high school's over that way 2 so I would be coming this way and they'd come out and 3 come right up behind and make like they were going to 4 pull me over. And -- and they wouldn't and some nights 5 they would go ahead of me and then just go park down the 6 road, wait for me to by. 7 And I -- I was upset different times where 8 I'd ask my son to drive me to work and pick me up, but 9 that was really hard on him because he had to be to his 10 own job in the morning and -- and I -- I even told my 11 brothers that. I said, the cops are really following me 12 around. They said, Ah, they wouldn't do that and -- but 13 they were. 14 Q: Hmm hmm? 15 A: I mean, it was me by myself out there 16 in the middle of the night and I was very afraid of them 17 and then it got to the point where I just couldn't make 18 myself go to work anymore. 19 Q: And when was that point? 20 A: In April. 21 Q: Of 1996? 22 A: Yes. I -- I didn't even make it 23 three (3) months back to work. 24 Q: And did you ever return to your job 25 thereafter?
2091 A: No. I -- I was just -- I got to the 2 point where I wouldn't even ride in my car anymore. I 3 mean, I'd barely leave the Army Camp. A lot of times I 4 would be in the back seat of somebody else's car because 5 it felt like they were just watching for me. 6 Q: And so did it come to the point where 7 you developed the -- the perception that the police were 8 following you all the time? 9 A: Yes. It felt like it. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: I wasn't even at work long enough 12 that time to -- to even be able to collect unemployment, 13 but I was so upset and everything that I didn't even 14 argue the point. I got to the point where I wouldn't 15 even drive my own car, I just let it go. 16 Q: You said that you made a complaint at 17 one (1) time. Who did you make a complaint to? 18 A: Which time? 19 Q: I think you indicated that as a 20 result of -- of feeling that police cars were following 21 you, you made a complaint. 22 A: This -- this was probably right 23 around that time when -- when -- just before I went back 24 to work -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
2101 A: -- and -- and I don't know who it 2 was, but they said they would kind of lay off of me; 3 leave me alone. 4 They -- the black and white cars weren't 5 following me, but it was, you know, like, I noticed when 6 I was driving home then, there was this one (1) white car 7 that came out right behind and then it passed me and went 8 up the road pretty fast and then as -- it turned down one 9 (1) of the back roads, but by the time I got up to 10 Ravenswood, that's the next road over from Army Camp 11 Road, and that car was coming out of there like -- like 12 it was heading me off at the pass. 13 Q: Okay. I -- I just would like to 14 know, who did you make the complaint to? 15 A: Probably to -- just the guys at -- at 16 the -- at Stoney Point. 17 Q: Okay, so this is -- 18 A: They -- they -- they had people that 19 they had liaisons or whoever talk to the police. 20 Q: Okay. All right. Fair enough. And 21 how long did your -- how long did it take for the bruises 22 to disappear from your arms? 23 A: I don't really recall, probably -- 24 probably about a week. 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall showing your
2111 bruises to members from the media at either an interview 2 or news conference September the 9th of 1995? 3 A: I know that people came to my 4 building and says that I needed to go and talk to -- talk 5 to the media and show them the bruises and tell them what 6 happened. 7 Q: All right. I wonder if we can put on 8 the screen Inquiry Document Number 1000709. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella, I 10 know -- 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you don't 13 have much more to go, but -- 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, I -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- what's 16 your suggestion, do you want to try to -- try to finish 17 your direct examination? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I am in the hands of my 19 colleagues here, I -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 21 to have to -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to finish 23 it if I could. You know, I should be able to finish by 24 4:00, maybe a little earlier. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we
2121 should adjourn as we planned and finish your examination 2 in-chief when we come back, 'cause there will probably be 3 some cross-examination in any event. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. I'm in your hands 5 that way. Perhaps we can just -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just finish 7 this point. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- finish this last 9 point if I might -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just finish 11 this point. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: And this is an article in the free -- 16 Free Press London -- London Free Press, excuse me, 17 September 9, 1995. And it's titled "Sister trying to 18 save dying kin displays OPP handling bruises". 19 Did you -- do you recall then, 20 demonstrating the -- showing the bruises to members of 21 the media on that day? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. I'd like to make that the 24 next exhibit, Commissioner. Again, not for the truth of 25 the content but for the fact of the demonstration of the
2131 bruises on that date. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-155. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-155. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-155: Document 1000709, London Free 6 Press Article "Sister, Trying 7 to Save Dying Kin, Displays 8 OPP Handling Bruises, 9 September 09/95 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: And with that, Ms. George, I'll 13 finish for the day. I'm adjourning the balance of my 14 examination but we will resume on Monday at 10:30. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 10:30, is 16 that all right? Will you be available? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. We'll adjourn now 'til Monday morning at 23 10:30. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until Monday, February the 7th, at 10:30 a.m.
2141 --- Upon adjourning at 3:31 p.m. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Certified Correct 10 11 12 13 14 15 ______________________ 16 Wendy Warnock 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25