11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 2nd, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) (np) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) 17 Megan Mackey ) (np) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) 21 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Resumed 6 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 7 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 48 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 209 10 11 Certificate of Transcript 268 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 4 P-141 Photograph of Dudley George at 124 5 Stoney Point Beach 1993 Taken 6 by Glenn George 7 P-142 Document 2002693, June 14/93 8 London Free Press Article 9 "Maynard T. George Is Acclaimed 10 Chief" 132 11 12 P-143 Document 1003680 May 18/94 13 Sarnia Observer Article 133 14 "George Heads Stoney Point" 15 P-144 Document 2001976 April 18/'95 16 London Free Press Article 133 17 P-145 7"x11" "Stan" Thompson Drawing 18 September 20/'95, marked by 19 witness Glenn George, February 20 02/'05 207 21 P-146 Document 7000257, the Information, 22 containing the charges against 23 Glenn George 208 24 P-147 Document 7000301, Recognizance re 25 Glenn George dated July 6th, 1995. 208
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Resumed: 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and 17 I'm here to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: I wonder if we could have Exhibit P- 20 40 up whenever Ms. Hensell is ready, thank you very much. 21 Mr. George, yesterday you spoke to us about the land mass 22 that you believe belongs to your people. And I want to 23 make sure that I'm clear as to what your view was in 1995 24 about that area. 25 So I'm asking you -- I suspect that your
81 view in 1995 is the same as it is in 2005, is that 2 correct? 3 A: I -- I've seen like the area closer 4 to the Fort Franks area being encroached upon. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: That's -- that's the thing that we 7 noticed that in '95 that -- 8 Q: Okay. We're going to get to that, 9 that's exactly what I was anticipating. So as I 10 understand your evidence, back in 1995, you regarding as 11 your land, the land belonging to your people, is the area 12 bounded by Lake Huron to what we're going to call the 13 north. 14 A: Yeah. This -- this is the area in 15 here that -- we've always had that understanding prior to 16 Outer Drive being built. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: Like Outer Drive might be twenty (20) 19 or so some odd years old. And that's the road that runs 20 this way from 21 Highway to the -- to the water's edge, 21 well almost to the water's edge. But it was after that - 22 - like '93 that we had moved in there, that we had 23 started to see how the encroachment was taking place in 24 there, in that area. 25 Q: All right. You -- you've anticipated
91 my next question which was: Back in 1993 and continuing 2 into 1995, you believed that those cottagers that 3 occupied the land, in that northeast corner, were 4 encroaching on your territory? 5 A: They -- that was already a done thing 6 that it was the ability to look down the hydro lines that 7 -- that were on the road and you could see cottages built 8 on the other side of those -- the line that they built on 9 the road. 10 And that's what -- when everybody started 11 noticing all of these different changes to the land, that 12 -- that these were the things that, you know, was a -- it 13 was a thing that if you -- if you weren't going to do 14 something, you know, like, there -- it was all going to 15 be developed with or without you. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And that's -- that's where the people 18 that -- that moved into the -- into the Military Camp had 19 that -- all understood that, you know, that they -- they 20 shared that view, eh? 21 Q: All right. And I also understand, 22 sir, that the area that is bordered on the west by Army 23 Camp Road -- see the Army Camp Road on the western side 24 of -- of the land mass? 25 A: Along here?
101 Q: Right. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: You believed that the area east of 4 that, towards Outer Drive, belonged to your people; 5 correct? 6 A: Yeah. This -- this whole area right 7 here. 8 Q: Thank you. And for the purposes of 9 the record Mr. George is outlining the entire man -- land 10 mass, excuse me, bordered by Highway 21, Army Camp Road, 11 Outer Drive and Lake Huron. 12 Now, what I'm interesting in confirming, 13 Mr. George, is that in 1995, I understand that you also 14 maintained -- and I'm not here to challenge it, I want 15 you to understand that -- but you also maintained that 16 the area west of the Park along what we call East Parkway 17 Drive, also belonged to your people? 18 A: West, this area here? 19 Q: Yes, along the lake. 20 A: Those things there, that was, like, I 21 don't know how -- how you -- how you view it when a lot 22 of the Elders that -- that used to speak in the -- at 23 these Locatee meetings always spoke about, is there 24 relatives in -- in the other communities like Nawash, 25 like Walpole, like, all of them.
111 They all had the same thing whether they 2 were checkerboarded, meaning this land was theirs; that 3 land wasn't. This was theirs; that land wasn't. 4 And they all had that same thing happen to 5 them, like, the -- the neighbours from where our 6 territory met with the Nawash community was that they had 7 three (3) main land -- I wouldn't call them surrenders. 8 They -- they -- they put it right on their letterheads, 9 on -- on everything that belongs to them that there's 10 three (3) main dates of lands that were taken away from 11 them. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: And this is all, like, the -- the 14 common knowledge as to how, like if -- if you were to 15 look at the -- the treaty books on -- on the size of the 16 -- the lands that they had -- once had, and then you look 17 at what they got now, it's major changes. 18 Q: I understand. All right, let's go 19 back to my question. The area that runs west, from what 20 has been described by some as Ipperwash Provincial Park, 21 running along East Parkway Drive on Lake Huron, where all 22 those cottages are today -- 23 A: All of these cottages that are in 24 there? 25 Q: And running west, sir.
121 A: All -- all the way along here? 2 Q: No, sir, that's running south. I'm 3 referring to the area that runs west in the area towards 4 Raven's Wood. 5 A: In this area? 6 Q: That's right, sir. I trust it was 7 your position, back in 1995, that that area that I've 8 just identified, also belonged to your people? 9 A: That's a -- that's a question that -- 10 that you're going to find a lot of different answers to. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I -- I think I shared with the people 13 here yesterday that West Ipperwash was, as my namesake 14 Maurice George, had lived on this land that was his land 15 and it's gone. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: I don't know how you want me to 18 explain, this is no different than right there? So, you 19 want -- you want the same answer to the -- to the 20 different question? Because that's what you're -- you're 21 basically implying to me that I have no ties to that land 22 on West Ipperwash because of what you're asking me about 23 this. 24 Q: No, sir. Mr. George, I want you to 25 listen really carefully because --
131 A: I listened carefully. I'm explaining 2 to you, to the best of my knowledge what you're asking 3 me. 4 Q: What I'm asking you is, I don't care 5 what anybody else believed, I'm interested in what you 6 believed. 7 A: I just told you. 8 Q: So the answer to my question, I 9 gather, is yes, you -- 10 A: If I -- if I was living in there, 11 then it would be mine, but I'm not living in. 12 Q: All right. Fair enough. 13 A: Okay? 14 Q: All right. That's -- that's the 15 answer I was looking for. 16 A: I'm called an occupier I guess, you 17 know what I mean? It's like occupying this place. Is 18 that what you want to hear? 19 Q: No, sir. 20 A: Oh, okay. 21 Q: No, all I want to hear is -- is what 22 was in your mind at the time, all right? In your mind 23 back in 1995 those cottages that sit on East Parkway 24 Drive, in your mind, they were encroaching on your land; 25 correct?
141 A: No. 2 Q: No? 3 A: That part was already done. We -- we 4 stuck to the -- to the Military because we've been like 5 sixty (60) years trying to put a face on these people as 6 to who was involved in physically taking the land; that's 7 what we were dealing with right there. All this other 8 stuff is somebody else's story, somebody else's belief. 9 I never had no belief of going after 10 cottages. If I wanted a cottage, I'd build it myself. 11 Q: Okay. When you spoke with the police 12 from time to time, in the summer of 1995, because I -- I 13 think it's pretty clear that indeed you did speak with 14 the police from time to time in the summer of 1995? 15 A: I -- I would like the rest of the 16 people in here to understand that I spoke with them long 17 before I moved over there. I -- I was a very active 18 person with the police and having fund raising activities 19 for -- for them to do whatever they wanted. 20 And I had a pretty good relationship with 21 them that -- you know, let's deal with that part first 22 before '95. Because I thought I made it pretty clear with 23 a lot of people that I was a pretty peaceful person. 24 Q: I understand. 25 A: And to me, like -- like when you --
151 when you ask questions like that, it -- it doesn't really 2 shed the light on -- on the fact that, you know, I used 3 to play hockey in this -- in this arena here raising 4 money with the OPP's that I got relatives that are OPP's, 5 that you know. I kind of understood that all of this 6 stuff was, you know, like it wasn't strangers amongst us. 7 Q: And I -- I don't take issue with that 8 at all, sir. 9 A: Okay. Do -- do you understand just 10 what I was trying to say? 11 Q: I do, sir. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: What -- what I'm wanting to pin down 14 is that in order to educate the police officers with whom 15 you spoke in the summer of 1995, you told them the kinds 16 of things you've been telling us about the land that you 17 felt that belonged to your people. Would that be fair? 18 A: I would have to say yes because, you 19 know, it was a known fact. 20 Q: Okay. Exactly. And -- and that 21 doesn't surprise me. I just wanted to confirm that. 22 Yesterday, My Friend Mr. Worme took you to a statement by 23 a police officer named Stan Korosec and I -- I always 24 butcher that man's name. Korosec, I get the syllable in 25 the wrong place. All right, could Mr. George have the
161 book of materials placed in front of him, please? In 2 particular, Tab 8, the officer's -- fair enough. 3 Mr. George, could I ask you to turn to Tab 4 8? And fair to say, Mr. George, that you weren't very 5 happy about the way that the land that you believed and 6 still believe belong properly to your people, you weren't 7 very happy about all that had gone on ahead of you, as to 8 how that land was taken from your people? 9 A: I don't know if you're going to find 10 too many people that are very happy with it to this very 11 day. 12 Q: So the answer to your question is, 13 no, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, I wasn't very happy. 14 A: Don't put words in my mouth, I don't 15 need that. I'm just like anybody else. I had this 16 ability to, like, interpret what, you know, the old 17 people are saying just like their, you know, their 18 desires to actually go home, all of the above. 19 And as for however things like this 20 happened, I basically, you know, being forty-two (42) 21 years of age, some of these things took place I guess 22 within that time period of 1942 'til now. And I don't -- 23 I don't know all of the answers to those types of 24 questions as to -- you know. But I know what I heard and 25 what I heard is that, you know, that we come from a
171 pretty -- pretty big territory. 2 Q: Right. And you weren't happy about 3 the way that territory was taken from you? 4 A: My main concerns was the fact that I 5 had buried my father there in 1990 and that I wasn't 6 about to, you know, the -- like, allow whatever was going 7 on to basically, I guess, go on forever, type of thing. 8 It was -- it was a time in my life of major change. 9 That's kind of like where in '93 when the 10 people moved onto the land that, you know, it was -- it 11 was made really clear as to my intentions, knowing that 12 my -- my dad was buried there that, you know, these -- 13 these lands are going to remain sacred in that -- in that 14 aspect, eh? And that's the only thing that we -- we 15 stuck strictly to the -- the Military Camp. 16 I -- I might have heard, you know, like, 17 throughout time, that there -- there was these -- these 18 things that took place, like no -- no different than 19 other side of Highway 21, that's no different. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: They talked of all of those lands. 22 Q: You talked of all of those lands? 23 A: No, no, no. I mean Elders talked of 24 all of those lands. 25 Q: Thank you. All right. We know that
181 your people moved into the rifle range in May of 1993; 2 correct? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Sorry, you'll have to give us a 5 verbal answer. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: We know that they pushed on into the 8 built-up area of what is sometimes described as Camp 9 Ipperwash in July of 1995; correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And we know that a number of your 12 people pushed on further into an area that has been 13 described by some as Ipperwash Provincial Park, on 14 September 4th, 1995; correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And we've also heard evidence that 17 some of those people pushed even further and moved into 18 the parking lot, in that area just outside of the Park, 19 on September the 5th, 1995. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You're aware of that? 22 A: Yeah. Yes. 23 Q: And I trust that you agreed with each 24 one of those decisions because you believe that your 25 people were entitled to all of that land?
191 A: I believe that's so but, you know, 2 it's like when -- when you list it like that it -- it 3 sounds like it -- it's like a -- a land claim thing, but 4 it -- it was viewed to the Elders as a -- 5 Q: Reclaiming. 6 A: -- repossession. 7 Q: I don't take issues with that. 8 A: The repo man give them an eviction 9 notice type of thing. 10 Q: All right. So, in effect, you had 11 evicted the people from the rifle range and when I say 12 you, I mean as a group. You had evicted anyone who might 13 be in the rifle range; correct? 14 A: I would have to say the whole Camp. 15 It wasn't just the rifle range. 16 Q: You've anticipated my next question. 17 You evicted people from the built-up area; correct? 18 A: I think that was done first. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: They served them first at the built- 21 up area. 22 Q: Fair enough. I understand. And then 23 you evicted the people from the Provincial Park; correct? 24 A: Not me, no. 25 Q: No, when I said "you," I'm talking
201 about a group of your -- 2 A: You're going to have to ask them. 3 Q: I think I've made my point, sir. I'm 4 going to move on. 5 A: I wasn't there. 6 Q: The fourth page in on the document 7 you have before you, sir, I anticipate that this officer, 8 Stan Korosec, will testify that right around the point 9 where a number of your people cut the chain to enter the 10 Park, he heard you say words to the effect that he should 11 tell all the people who lived west of the Park to Raven's 12 Wood that they will be taking that land next. 13 Do you recall saying that, sir? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You don't recall saying that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Is it possible something like 18 that was said? 19 A: There was a lot of things being said 20 at that time and I wasn't -- I wasn't there where you're 21 talking about, the chains being cut. I was still in that 22 part of the marriage patch when those things were going 23 on and it was a -- it was like a thing of -- there was -- 24 there was police presence closer to the shoreline on -- 25 on that part of Matheson Drive.
211 Do you know where I'm talking? 2 Q: I do, sir. 3 A: That -- that area is probably right 4 in here where I was and -- 5 Q: And for the purposes of the record 6 you are pointing to that part of Matheson Drive -- 7 A: -- that -- 8 Q: -- that runs north/south -- 9 A: Korosec was down there -- 10 Q: -- at the lake. 11 A: See, like, I know what he looks like 12 and where I was, I was up here on the dunes so I could 13 watch what was going on there and what I could see going 14 on there and I couldn't see what was going on all the 15 time, like -- like to -- to see from right here where I 16 was on the dune, I was trying to keep an eye on what was 17 going on there and what was going on there because there 18 is a bench right there. 19 Q: And again you are -- you're pointing 20 to the area -- 21 A: It's -- 22 Q: -- on Exhibit P-40 right at the 23 Base -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- or the most southerly point of
221 Matheson -- 2 A: See the -- 3 Q: -- Road and beach, on the west side 4 of that street. 5 A: Yeah, on -- on this area right here 6 there was a bench and that's where the ones who you 7 listed there were talking with the police, right there. 8 And I remember when I was standing up here, that I seen 9 Larry Parks and he's the one that said to me, Glenn, have 10 you paid your fine yet? 11 And I says, Larry, come on over here and 12 get your fine. And he -- after he got the attention that 13 he was looking for he kind of shrugged up and kind of 14 tried to mix in with the rest of the police there, 15 because he come after me. 16 He wasn't looking for nobody else, he come 17 after me. And that's what I seen and that's my 18 understanding of what it is that went on. 19 Q: All right. So we have your evidence 20 that you did not say this to Officer Korosec. 21 A: I never said nothing to him. 22 Q: Thank you. I also anticipate, sir, 23 that we're going to hear from an officer by the name of 24 Mark Wright, and you knew Mark Wright back in 1995, I 25 understand, because you'd met with him on several
231 occasions; correct? 2 A: I wouldn't say several, I think -- 3 I'd say close to one (1) or two (2). 4 Q: I think actually it was two (2) as a 5 matter of fact. I'm going to get to that in a minute, 6 but -- 7 A: Well, let's keep them a little bit 8 more exact, too, because I know exactly what's going on 9 too. I was there and to me, I don't need to be, you 10 know, in a position where I want to share with this 11 Inquiry dealing with a shooting here, okay? 12 And whatever it is you feel is important, 13 is your business, eh? Like to me, I have views, too. 14 Q: Yes, sir. I appreciate that. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I understand, sir, that at the 19 beginning of August you had two (2) meetings, which 20 included Mark Wright. One (1) meeting occurred very 21 shortly after the motor vehicle accident that we heard 22 about yesterday and a second meeting which is the one I 23 want to focus on for the moment, arose in relation to 24 executing an arrest warrant for Wade -- not Wade Jacklin, 25 Lincoln -- excuse me, Lincoln Jackson.
241 A: I wasn't there with any kind of 2 Lincoln Jackson, I -- 3 Q: No, no, no -- 4 A: -- I wasn't at a meeting about that. 5 I -- 6 Q: You don't recall -- 7 A: I can't recall -- 8 Q: All right. And it maybe because of 9 the passage of time that you can't recall that there was 10 a meeting involving yourself, Mark Wright and several 11 others that I'll get into in a minute, about the arrest 12 warrant for Cleve Lincoln Alexander and I'm quite certain 13 the last name is Jackson, but we'll get to that in a 14 minute. 15 And I anticipate that we're going to hear, 16 sir, that towards the end of the meeting you told officer 17 Wright that your people rightfully owned Matheson Drive, 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park and the farmer's field south of 19 the Army Base. Now first of all, do you recall saying 20 that to Officer Wright? 21 A: I don't recall a meeting where that 22 was brought up. I don't recall being at a meeting to 23 discuss Lincoln Jackson. Those things there could have, 24 you know, like to me I'm kind of -- it gets confusing 25 when, you know, like I myself at so many different times
251 where I had arrest warrants for myself. 2 Q: I'm not talking about arrest warrants 3 for you, sir. 4 A: And when you -- when you want to 5 bring up arrest warrants for somebody else, I -- I did 6 good to look after my own interest in that form. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: So to me I'm -- I'm basically telling 9 you that you're making it confusing to me when you're 10 asking about Lincoln Jackson or someone else. Because in 11 our culture, heads of family looks after their own family 12 and I don't recall meeting Mark Wright to talk about 13 Lincoln Jackson or I don't recall saying anything about 14 the perimeters of the camp. 15 Q: All right. Let's move on then to 16 communication. I anticipate that we're going to hear 17 from Officer Korosec, that on the early evening of 18 September the 4th, 1995, he overheard you in an exchange 19 with Bert Manning -- you're laughing but let me finish my 20 question, all right? 21 He overheard you, in an exchange with Bert 22 Manning, say that there was going to be no meeting with 23 the police. And just again to give you a context for 24 what I understand was this conversation, Bert Manning had 25 earlier spoken to the officer and he had agreed, that on
261 Tuesday the 5th at 10:00 a.m., there would be a meeting 2 between members of your community and the police before 3 there was actually movement into the Park for the 4 purposes of a re-possession. 5 A: I don't recall any meetings with Bert 6 Manning with the police. I don't recall any kind of a -- 7 like meetings where they were to come to the rest of the 8 people and acknowledge anybody to attend the meetings 9 that they were hosting. 10 Like to me, I don't -- I don't recall Bert 11 Manning ever coming to me and asking me to attend a 12 meeting with him. A lot of times those -- that family 13 made their own meetings and they held their own 14 discussions. 15 Q: And that may have actually occurred, 16 what -- what I'm getting at, sir, is that when you 17 learned -- this is what I anticipate the evidence will 18 be. When you learned that Bert Manning -- and he may 19 have done it on his own without consulting anybody else, 20 when you learned that he had agreed to a meeting with the 21 police, you said to him, in Officer Korosec's presence, 22 there'll be no meeting. 23 Do you recall that, on the early evening 24 of September 4th? 25 A: No. I don't ever remember discussing
271 anything -- any kind of meetings with the police with 2 Bert Manning. It never happened. 3 Q: And would it be fair -- would it be 4 fair to say, sir, that by September the 4th, you had 5 absolutely no interest in speaking with the police about 6 the repossession issue? 7 A: I never talked about any kind of 8 repossession issue with the police. I think -- 9 Q: No, that's not my question, Mr. 10 George. My question, sir, was -- was it your position 11 that you had no desire to meet with the police? Because 12 as far as you were concerned there was nothing to discuss 13 about the repossession of the Park. 14 A: Well that's another question. You -- 15 you tried to ask me that I was at a meeting with Bert 16 Manning, and I -- and I said, no. And then you -- you 17 further that -- that question to me about repossessions. 18 I -- I didn't -- I didn't have no discussion with this 19 police officer. 20 Q: I understand that, sir. I want you-- 21 A: And if he overheard me, I don't know 22 if I ever spoke to him, I usually spoke directly to 23 people. I didn't -- I didn't make it so that everybody, 24 you know, in a police force was going to hear me. If 25 they were right there in person I usually went up to them
281 and talked to them in person. 2 Q: Okay. This is my question. By the 3 evening of September the 4th, was it your position that 4 you had no desire to speak to the police on the issue of 5 repossessing the Park? 6 A: I didn't know that was, you know, the 7 -- the topic of the day. If that was, well, I don't know 8 who these police are that you're talking about that, you 9 know -- What are you saying? 10 Q: I'm asking you, sir, what was in your 11 mind, whether or not you had any interest in talking to 12 the police on the night of the 4th about the issue of 13 repossessing that Park? 14 A: There's -- like, I -- I remember 15 seeing Mark Wright and Marg Eve. 16 Q: We're going to get to that in a 17 minute. 18 A: And I -- I -- 19 Q: I'm not asking about that, sir, I'm 20 asking about -- 21 A: I never -- I never made it an issue 22 to talk about repossessions of anything with anybody. 23 Q: Because for you it wasn't up for 24 discussion? Is that what you're telling us? 25 A: This is a thing that was -- there was
291 an eerie feeling in the air during this time and what 2 you're asking is if I was going to go around and ask if 3 there was repossessions that were going to take place 4 here, there and everywhere? No, I -- I had no knowledge 5 of what you're talking about. 6 Q: All right. I think I'm going to move 7 on. I want to take you to some evidence that we've heard 8 from Roderick George in November of this -- of last year, 9 because I -- I have to say when I read Officer Korosec's 10 statement, I wasn't terribly surprised by it when I then 11 heard Roderick George's evidence. 12 I want to read that to you if I can. And 13 for the benefit of my Friends and Mr. Commissioner, I'm 14 referring to the transcript of November the 23rd, 2004, 15 and I will begin at page 134. 16 And Roderick George was testifying at that 17 time about seeing officers at the fence line wanting, it 18 would appear, to open up some type of a dialogue with 19 those people who had repossessed the Park area and he 20 wasn't sure whether what he described occurred on the 5th 21 or the 6th, so that on the day of Dudley George's 22 shooting or the day before. All right? But he did 23 indicate the following, that it was along the fence line 24 above the sandy parking lot and at page 35 commencing at 25 line 3, he had the following to say:
301 "Well, I pulled up there and there was, 2 I think it was Glenn, and that Scott 3 guy and several others were there and 4 they say, I don't know, who's that guy 5 standing at the fence line? He said, 6 Oh, he's, like, a guy called Mark 7 Wright and another officer was a 8 woman." 9 Dropping down to page 136. Question by 10 Commission Counsel commencing at line twelve: 11 "And so Glenn George and who else? 12 Scott -- Scott was --" 13 Answer: 14 "Scott was there, yeah." 15 Dropping down to line 21. 16 "Q: So Glenn pointed out the police 17 officer -- two (2) police officers and 18 referred to one (1) as Mark Wright? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what -- what -- after he's 21 pointed out one (1) of the police 22 officers was Mark Wright, what 23 happened? 24 A: I just asked him who -- who they 25 were, why were they here and said
311 something, I believe it's, He wants to 2 talk to somebody." 3 So what appears, Mr. George, is that 4 Roderick George was conveying to us this conversation 5 that he was having with you. All right? I'm going to 6 continue. 7 "Q: Glenn. Glenn George told you that 8 the police officer wanted to talk to 9 someone? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A: And he goes, meaning you, he goes, 13 you go talk. I don't want to talk to 14 him. I don't want to talk to no police 15 officers. 16 Q: So Glenn said that he didn't want 17 to. Glenn said -- 18 A: No, he didn't want to. He asked me 19 if I wanted to go talk to them. I 20 said, I don't want to talk to them, so 21 I ended up going over anyways just to 22 tell them to politely 'F' off." 23 That's the testimony that Roderick George 24 gave in relation to what seems to be the same incident 25 that you described yesterday on the afternoon before
321 Dudley George was shot. Do you recall having that 2 conversation with Roderick George? 3 A: I seen him there. But I don't 4 remember getting into a big discussion over that. Simply 5 because I myself went over and talked with Mark Wright. 6 And that was like a real basically two (2) second 7 conversation where he introduced this Marg Eve as a 8 negotiator; that's all he basically said. 9 And my response to them was I was kind of 10 hoping for a third party tribunal to them to -- to deal 11 with the land issue. And they said that they don't 12 negotiate that and that was the end of the discussion. 13 As for talking with Judas, I don't remember getting into 14 a big discussion about who wanted to go and talk to them 15 or not. 16 Because to me it wasn't -- it wasn't in 17 the -- the air of the -- of that time for me to even -- 18 what would you want to talk to them about? I wasn't 19 there to talk about, you know, like repossessions of 20 land. No, that -- that wasn't the topic. 21 Q: So the bottom line was that you 22 really didn't see any point opening up a dialogue with 23 the police at that point? 24 A: To me, my attempts to create a 25 dialogue go further back, go back to '93 and that, you
331 know, I made it clear that, you know, the Elders and 2 myself witnessed, you know, the asking of them to, you 3 know, to come there with no uniform, no sidearm and that 4 we could have a discussion where if there were things 5 that were, you know, concerns of cottagers or whatever, 6 then those things would have been tabled then; not at 7 that time. 8 At that time it seemed like it was a 9 little too late to try and explain actions of those 10 people. Like, I -- I was there just like them and to me 11 I was only in there after that -- that part of -- they 12 were in there. They already anchored in there. I never 13 partook in that part. 14 Q: You -- you played no role in going 15 into the Park, that's your evidence? 16 A: I witnessed some of the entry, that's 17 it. I -- my -- my feeling to that was just like Larry 18 Park (phonetic) stated to me that, you know, did you pay 19 your fine and I didn't have no money to pay my fine so I 20 reluctantly stayed inside the camp. 21 Q: I understand -- excuse me, I 22 anticipate, sir, that Mark Wright is going to testify 23 that he made two (2) attempts to try and speak with the 24 people who were, as you put it, repossessing the Park. I 25 anticipate we're going to hear that he made an attempt on
341 the Tuesday at 12 noon and that again he made the second 2 attempt on the Wednesday afternoon at three o'clock. 3 And I further anticipate that we're going 4 to hear that on each occasion, he specifically asked to 5 talk to you. Does that -- 6 A: That might be so. I don't know. 7 What he says and does is his business. 8 Q: You're quite correct, sir. What I 9 wanted to ask you was that had anyone let you know that 10 Mark Wright had asked for you; and I trust the answer is 11 no. 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. I anticipate, sir, that we're 14 going to hear that Mark Wright never did get to see you 15 on the afternoon of the 6th and have a conversation with 16 you; that's why I'm curious about your account, as you've 17 claimed that you actually came up to the fence line. 18 Is it possible that you could have that 19 mistaken; that you didn't speak with them on the 6th at 20 the fence line? 21 A: I -- I remember talking to him and 22 that woman and like I said, it was, like, a two (2) 23 second conversation as to -- he introduced her as a 24 negotiator and I seen this uniform, which told me that 25 she wasn't a part of a third party tribunal that was
351 going to deal with any kind of a land -- as to what the 2 people were in the Park for and to me, you know, you can 3 say, hello. 4 Is that -- is that considered as, you 5 know, like, a -- an interview or a meeting or whatever? 6 Like, to me, I greet a lot of people on the street and on 7 the roads and -- and buildings or whatever and I try to 8 be polite and I sometimes, you know, greet people just 9 like they greet me and -- 10 Q: And -- 11 A: -- sometimes I -- I don't recall 12 getting into a big meeting with them. 13 Q: Oh, I'm not suggesting there was a -- 14 a meeting with them. You'd agree, sir, that Mark Wright 15 was not dressed in uniform? 16 A: I can't recall. I just -- I seen a 17 uniform. 18 Q: What -- what you've described, sir, 19 up to this point is Marg Eve being in uniform. I'm going 20 to suggest to you that Mark Wright was not dressed in 21 uniform. 22 A: I -- I can't remember that. I -- I 23 remember seeing a uniform, whether they both had them on 24 or not, I can't -- I can't remember. 25 Q: All right. Let's, then, move on to
361 the two (2) meetings that I understand Mark Wright and 2 Charlie Bowman were involved with you. And I anticipate, 3 sir, that we're going to hear that on August the 1st, so 4 not long after the takeover or the repossession of the 5 built-up area -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- and right after the motor vehicle 8 accident, there was a meeting at 4:30 p.m. on August the 9 1st at the main gate of the area previously described as 10 Camp Ipperwash and present was Officer Bowman, Mark 11 Wright, and George Speck and on behalf of those in the 12 built-up area there was Rose Manning and yourself and 13 someone by the name of Terry George. 14 Do you recall a meeting involving those 15 people? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Okay. This was the meeting where 18 there was discussion about setting up a Ride program near 19 the area. Does that help refresh your memory? 20 A: I'm pretty -- pretty sure that at 21 that time that you're talking about that I remember that 22 there was -- there was that issue of those -- those 23 people that were -- that were killed in that -- in that 24 car accident and that there -- there was a -- a statement 25 of a -- of a ten (10) day period that -- that was going
371 to be brought out and -- and I'm pretty positive that -- 2 that the talks of a -- of a Ride program were before that 3 event took place. So I'm kind of confused. I -- I don't 4 recall going to a meeting about setting up a Ride program 5 after that happened. 6 Q: After what happened? The -- 7 A: After those women -- the woman and 8 the -- and the man got killed in that car accident. 9 Q: So the Ride program meeting -- you 10 thought those discussions were before the accident 11 occurred? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I'm pretty sure they were. 15 Q: I understood from yesterday's 16 evidence, sir, that you said it had occurred after the 17 fact and that it was too much too late? 18 A: Possibly could have. I'm -- I'm kind 19 of stuck where -- I'm positive that it -- that meeting of 20 wanting to have the Ride program was before we even moved 21 into the Camp. 22 Q: Okay. There may have been several 23 meetings about Ride programs. 24 A: Meeting at the built-up area which 25 was on the 29th of July?
381 Q: Yes, sir. 2 A: I remember going in there on the 29th 3 of July and this happened. I can't remember if it was on 4 the 29th or the 30th. 5 It was right then, right close to that 6 time when all of this was going on, but it was people 7 that were inside the barracks area and at that time, I 8 was -- I was living still on the beach. 9 That's where my place where I was living. 10 I never moved into the -- into the barracks area until 11 about a week after, maybe two (2) weeks after. 12 I still stayed at the beach. I basically 13 -- through the Court, was told to stay away from the 14 built up area and me going to a meeting in -- in that 15 area of the barracks area where I was told to stay away 16 from, I'm having a hard time remembering if I actually 17 went in there, because I was told to stay out of there, 18 okay. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: And this -- this was an Order by the 21 Court that I was trying to abide by. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: And to me, I -- I seemed to be 24 getting pulled into a meeting here by a whole lot of 25 people that I -- I never had a chance to -- to go over
391 this statement or whatever it is that you have in front 2 of you, to view that for myself and I'm sharing with you 3 what I -- was going through my head at the time, because 4 to me, I remember bringing up that -- that issue of a 5 Ride Program in '93. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Because that was a -- that was the 8 time of my -- my sober -- like I became sober on May 6th 9 of '93. 10 Q: I understand. 11 A: And that's the reasons. 12 Q: All I'm trying to do, sir, is I'm 13 trying to -- to provide you with some information that 14 might help refresh your memory. 15 I anticipate we're going to hear that 16 during that meeting, Rose Manning said things to the 17 effect that Matheson Drive and Ipperwash Park belonged to 18 your people and that they'd never given it up. 19 Does that help refresh your memory? 20 A: I can't recall Rose Manning saying 21 that. Like, to me, I -- I've heard Elders say a lot of 22 things but I -- I'm still kind of trying to find in my 23 memory if I was at this meeting or not and you're asking 24 me questions that -- to me, it's a -- it's a -- I -- I've 25 had the opportunity to hear several Elders speak on that
401 issue, that they didn't want to see, like, alcohol. 2 My mother was one of them. There's -- 3 there's a lot of things that come out of that before 4 which makes it kind of where -- when somebody -- somebody 5 loses a life, it was -- it was a thing that -- to me, I - 6 - I had to deal with several things at that time. 7 Q: I understand, sir. But let me give 8 you another piece of information. I understand that 9 during the course of this meeting, and I anticipate that 10 we'll hear this, there was a discussion about a lock on a 11 gate at Matheson Drive. 12 Does that refresh your recollection? 13 All right, you're -- you're -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- shaking your head. I anticipate, 16 sir, that we're going to hear that during the course of 17 this meeting, the police said to you that they had to 18 remain neutral to be able to respond to everyone's 19 concerns and problems, whether it was those expressed by 20 your community, those that lived up at the Kettle and 21 Stony Point reserve or those non-aboriginal people who 22 lived in the community. 23 And because of that, and because of the 24 need that they had to respond to all of them, they had to 25 remain as a neutral party.
411 Do you recall any of that type of 2 discussion? 3 A: No. 4 Q: But, again, you don't disagree that 5 in early August you -- you did meet with Mark Wright? 6 A: I can't recall offhand, like, like I 7 -- yeah, I've been going through my notes, too, but I 8 can't recall that, no. 9 Q: You were keeping notes of your 10 meetings or what was going on in July and August of 1995? 11 A: There is copies in -- in -- in the 12 camp, but I'm -- I'm talking about these -- these books 13 here that I've been -- I've been trying to find where and 14 when and what time I had met with him, because I 15 remember, like, yesterday, we were talking about Mr. 16 Smith that -- I never met him until the people moved into 17 the barracks and Mr. Wright, there, he is somewhere along 18 that same time frame that I -- I don't recall meeting him 19 until, I think, time around when that meeting at the 20 fence. 21 So, like, I -- I might have known him by, 22 like, an introduction, but I've never sat and talked with 23 him. I don't know why he was here or what -- his rank, 24 or whatever, that I -- I basically didn't know. 25 Q: All right.
421 A: All's I know is that -- that it was 2 always a confusing state that having family, first 3 cousins, OPP's , that you -- you -- you understood that 4 their dad was my uncle and you understood that they, 5 hopefully understood this whole area as to their 6 inheritance, too. 7 Q: I understand, Mr. George. 8 A: And those things were made confusing 9 when you would see someone like Mr. Wright or Ms. Eves 10 showing up and wanting to talk to these people who were 11 in here and were in the Park. There wasn't no -- it was 12 like a -- you -- you talk of continuity as to somehow 13 could we have a dialogue that we could see these first 14 cousins of ours face to face to try and share in-depth, 15 like what you're asking. 16 Q: All right. Well -- 17 A: And that was -- that was the strange 18 part to us. 19 Q: Let -- let me pick up on one (1) 20 thing, because I also anticipate that we're going to 21 hear, during this meeting on August the 1st, that there 22 was a discussion about involving officers such as Vince 23 George, Phil George, Luke George, about coming to talk 24 with the people at the built-up area, on an informal 25 basis?
431 A: I -- 2 Q: Do you remember that discussion? 3 A: No. What I -- I -- it's like right 4 now I'm -- I'm all ears, you know, like, to me those were 5 the types of things that if -- if they were -- if they 6 were there it would have kind of made it somehow easier 7 to explain, like what I'm trying to explain to you. 8 You -- you -- you asked me if I remember 9 Mark Wright and Marg Eve at -- at the -- the fence line 10 there. Well, yeah, I remember seeing them there. I 11 remember seeing pictures of them there. I remember 12 hearing on the new that the -- the kids were shining 13 mirrors at them and stuff like that. Well, yeah, I -- I 14 remember that part, but I don't remember getting into an 15 in-depth conversation with them. 16 I remember hearing the statement that Marg 17 Eve was a negotiator and, you know, it would have been 18 different if you were looking at your relatives that were 19 supposed to know the same history as the people in the 20 Park, as the people in the Camp have. 21 See, because that -- that whole issue of 22 the burial grounds affects them too, because that -- 23 that's their relatives, too. See, and -- and you see 24 this whole business being isolated where, you know, I 25 remember hearing those guys talk to me about when I was
441 in the -- in the -- in -- being arrested in -- in Forest 2 that it was all full of First Nation police officers that 3 are OPP's and they -- and they said -- I -- I heard the 4 statement that, Oh, twenty (20) years ago you would have 5 never seen this. 6 To me, twenty (20) years ago doesn't make 7 no difference, to me. Here it is where you've got all 8 these people who are your relatives that -- 9 Q: Mr. George, perhaps I can -- I can 10 interrupt. I just want to get you focussed on the one 11 (1) question. 12 Is it your evidence that during a meeting 13 with Mark Wright and Officer Bowman and Officer Speck, 14 that you did not discuss the potential involvement of 15 First Nations persons who were also OPP officers? Is 16 that your evidence or you -- you can't say one (1) way or 17 the other? 18 A: I -- I -- I'm positive that I made 19 that -- that type of statement in '93 or '94 and -- and 20 when these things took place it just seemed like it was 21 falling on deaf ears that there was this -- this fact 22 that, you know, that there was police officers that were 23 in -- wearing uniforms who are my relatives, my first 24 cousins, okay, thinking that if there was an issue 25 dealing with the -- the Park area meaning over there,
451 that they had this ability to bring forth these relatives 2 of mine with the badge and everything to speak on that 3 part. 4 See it -- it just alienated things worse 5 when they bring in somebody who claims to be a negotiator 6 and to me I would have understood that if there was a 7 third party tribunal that yeah, it might be made up with 8 some of these people who have descendants buried in that 9 Park. 10 Q: Okay. Let's -- 11 A: And this never happened. 12 Q: Let's move on to the second meeting 13 that I want to talk to you very briefly about. And I 14 understand it occurred on either August the 3rd or August 15 the 4th. I've seen two (2) different dates. 16 That I understand and I anticipate that 17 we're going to hear that you and Les Jewel were present 18 together for a meeting with Officer Wright, Officer 19 George Speck and an Officer Lickman (phonetic). 20 And that they met with you at the area 21 described as the Base? 22 A: I can't recall going to a meeting 23 with Russ or Les Jewel or any Jewels. 24 Q: All right. Then I -- I'm not going 25 to ask you any questions about that, sir, no further
461 questions about that. 2 You -- you were asked yesterday about your 3 meeting with John Carson, another officer with the OPP in 4 the summer of 1993 when you were as you've described, 5 doing your fund raising on Matheson Drive? 6 A: I don't -- I don't recall meeting 7 here. Like I've been put in meetings and -- and I'm 8 going to explain to you that I -- I was -- got a warrant 9 for my arrest and I don't recall meeting with -- Carson. 10 Q: Sir, you didn't have -- you didn't 11 have a warrant for your arrest I don't believe in -- in 12 July of 1993, right? 13 A: I just got done saying I -- I believe 14 I had one. I -- I need to see some kind of record here. 15 I -- because I had so many of those eh? 16 Q: Okay. I -- I anticipate, sir, you 17 recall the incident where Clifford George was charged 18 with -- with mischief for -- for asking people for money 19 in order to access the Park through Matheson Drive? 20 A: I -- yeah, I -- I understood that 21 part but what I remember is I -- I was with Ron George, 22 he was -- he was there that day in particular. Because I 23 remember he was the one that give me a ride down there 24 inside the -- the camp. 25 And -- and he drove down to there to
471 witness what was going on at Matheson Drive when they so 2 called had this toll booth there but it was -- I never 3 had a meeting. 4 Q: Sir, I anticipate -- I anticipate 5 we're going to hear from Officer Carson that on July the 6 16th he was speaking with you and Maynard T. George in 7 that area of Matheson Drive about toll collections. 8 And I anticipate that we're going to hear 9 that he was encouraging the two (2) of you to avoid 10 creating a confrontation with the police. 11 Do you have any recollection of any 12 exchange like that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And again, sir, it's -- 15 it's a long time ago and it's hard to ask you to recall 16 those kinds of details from such a long time ago. 17 A: Well I -- I remember with the help of 18 my pictures. I took pictures there. 19 Q: I understand. Sir, those are my 20 questions, thank you for your time. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. We'll take a short break now. We'll take the 23 morning break. It's a bit early but I'd like to take a 24 break. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
481 for fifteen (15) minutes. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 10:00 a.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 10:18 a.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. Ms. Jones...? Good morning. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 11 Commissioner. Good morning. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 15 A: Morning. 16 Q: My name's Karen Jones and I'm one of 17 the lawyers who represents the Ontario Provincial Police 18 Association. 19 A: Good morning. 20 Q: Mr. George, you had told us yesterday 21 about the entering into the Army camp on May the 6th of 22 1993. 23 When you got to the camp on May the 6th, 24 were there about ten (10) people that -- that were there, 25 staying the night? Do you remember?
491 A: On May 6th -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- I know that my two (2) nephews 4 were, from my understanding -- my mother -- my mother 5 told me when I got home from work that -- 6 Q: Sure -- 7 A: -- you're to go look after your 8 nephews. And when I got there, there was more than ten 9 (10) people. There was like fifty (50) people maybe -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- maybe more. 12 Q: But in terms of the people that 13 stayed overnight and camped out, were there about ten 14 (10) people that did that? 15 A: I would have to say more than that -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- maybe -- maybe twenty (20), maybe 18 more. 19 Q: Okay. And you told us yesterday that 20 the original camp that people stayed in was on one side 21 of the steel bridge along Highway 21 -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Do you remember that? I'm wondering, 24 could we have P-40 please? 25 I just wasn't sure, Mr. George, where the
501 steel bridge along Highway 21 was, and I'm wondering if 2 you could use that pointer that's in front of you and you 3 could show us where the original camp was? 4 A: I'm pretty sure it was on -- I think 5 this is the creek -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It was on this side, in this area. 8 Q: Okay. And that's Mud Creek, is that 9 right? Is that what it's called? 10 A: I think Mud Creek is this other one-- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- this way. 13 Q: Okay. So just to be clear for the 14 record, you indicated with your pointer an area just 15 adjacent to Highway 21 that is on the east side and it is 16 east of the rifle ranges, is that right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah, okay. And then you told us 19 that within a couple of weeks, people had moved onto the 20 range area. 21 Do you remember that? 22 A: Yeah, it was -- I think it was the 23 May 24 weekend -- 24 Q: Yeah -- 25 A: -- the long weekend.
511 Q: Right. And do you agree with me that 2 the range area was part of the training area at the time 3 for the Military? 4 A: I'm under -- my impression is the 5 whole area was training area. 6 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not at 7 that time, the Military was using the range area? 8 A: I don't know, I -- 9 Q: You don't know? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 12 from other witnesses, and I just wanted to check with 13 you, Mr. George, was it your -- did you, or do you know 14 if anyone else of the people who occupied the Base on May 15 the 6th, did you or anyone that you know of that was 16 there, tell the Kettle Point Band that you were planning 17 that occupation? 18 A: I don't know. I -- 19 Q: You didn't? 20 A: No, I didn't know. No, I didn't tell 21 them -- 22 Q: Okay. And we also heard some 23 evidence previously, Mr. George, that that occupation was 24 not done with the approval of the Band or the Council. 25 Did you know about that?
521 A: No, I didn't. 2 Q: Okay. And we saw earlier a press 3 release that the Kettle and Stony Point Council had 4 issued on May the 7th of 1993 saying that the chief and 5 Council did not sanction the occupation of the camp. 6 Did you ever see that press release? 7 A: No, I never -- 8 Q: Did you ever hear from members of the 9 council or the chief of the Kettle and Stony Point Band 10 that they didn't approve or sanction the occupation? 11 A: There's a lot of things that come out 12 of their Council. I -- I remember hearing a press 13 release to Indian Affairs about finding a place for them 14 Georges somewhere up near Sudbury. I remember seeing 15 that. 16 Q: You don't remember seeing that press 17 release or hearing from the chief or the Council that 18 they didn't sanction the occupation? 19 A: I don't know of any. Like, I -- I 20 was still working for the Band at that time. 21 Q: Right. And we also heard earlier 22 that in 1980 the Federal Government had paid about $2.5 23 million to the Kettle and Stony Point Band as, at least, 24 partial compensation for the expropriation of the Base? 25 Were you aware of that payment?
531 A: I remember getting a thousand dollars 2 ($1,000). I don't know if it was in '81 or '85 or -- I 3 remember everybody was given a thousand dollars ($1,000). 4 It's -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I -- I didn't -- I didn't read no 7 document or anything like that that was a -- that tied 8 any of that to the money. I -- I have no knowledge of 9 that. I'm -- I wasn't on Council. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I don't remember seeing the Council 12 explaining in full any details of the thousand dollars 13 ($1,000) that they were paying. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I'm just like anybody else that -- 16 that isn't part of the -- the Council. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Because the -- the Council has, I 19 guess -- I don't know, those on file. 20 Q: Okay. So you knew nothing about the 21 $2.5 million or its distribution? 22 A: I just told you, I got a thousand 23 dollars ($1,000) -- 24 Q: One thousand dollars ($1,000). 25 A: -- just like everybody else, but I
541 never read no documents on it. 2 Q: One (1) of the documents, Mr. George, 3 that is in the document database that we've been given by 4 the Commission is a document that's entitled, "Resistance 5 at Stoney Point Continues." And for the assistance of 6 Counsel, it is at -- oh, I'm sorry, it doesn't seem to 7 have an Inquiry number here. 8 Let me tell you what it says. It is an 9 article that was on the native net and on the second page 10 -- and I'll read this to you and I'll see -- and then 11 I'll ask you some questions to see if you recall speaking 12 to the reporter. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 14 article in the materials that we have? I know it -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I don't -- in my 16 material I don't see it as being in the document 17 database. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: It was one (1) of the documents that 21 we listed as being -- as referring to -- It says: 22 "In 1980 the Government took advantage 23 of this confusion and intensified it by 24 offering a compensation package of $2.4 25 million and a reiteration of the
551 promise for an eventual return of the 2 land to the Band. To this date, the 3 DND continues to incorrectly refer to 4 these two (2) separate bands as the 5 Kettle and Stony Point Band." 6 And it goes: 7 "This error may not be an oversight, 8 but a deliberate attempt at the age-old 9 imperialistic divide and conquer 10 routine by creating friction between 11 the two (2) bands. The DND's 12 compensated -- compensation package 13 gained the approval of 80 percent of an 14 apparently very small number of Kettle 15 Point people attending that meeting." 16 And then there's a quote from you. It goes on: 17 "No Stoney Point people voted for 18 acceptance of the DND's offer and they 19 did not receive any of the compensation 20 money. In fact, an earlier 21 compensation package of fifty thousand 22 dollars ($50,000.00) that was issued by 23 the Government in 1942 to assist in the 24 movement of Stoney Point people to the 25 Kettle Point reserve was
561 misappropriated by an Indian agent." 2 And it goes on a little bit and then there's another 3 quote from you that's saying: 4 "For some of the people pulled off the 5 land, it was like pulling their life 6 support systems because they lived off 7 the land, says Stoney Point Band 8 Councillor, Glenn George." 9 And I'm wondering if you recall having a 10 discussion regarding the compensation money and how it 11 was distributed? 12 A: I would like to know who -- who I was 13 supposedly having a conversation with because I -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- I need to -- 16 Q: It's an article that's dated March 17 the 17th, 1994 and it says it's by Alloz (phonetic) the 18 Activist. I don't know if that gives you any assistance 19 at all. 20 A: Alloz the Activist? 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: To my understanding I know there's -- 23 there's a -- there was a lot of things that were out and 24 about in that part of the issue of payments because I -- 25 I remember seeing a video where, at that time, the -- the
571 chief, Bonni Bressette, was on TV making a statement. 2 I think it was the Fifth Estate where 3 there was a million dollars held in trust from this 4 agreement and I still to this very day, I don't really 5 know the complete particulars of what took place. 6 I just told you, I remember I got a 7 thousand dollars ($1,000). To me, I know that there was 8 other monies that -- that were seen to have been put on 9 paper with the numbers and the zeros and the dollar 10 signs. 11 But I don't remember ever hearing from my 12 dad as to what he ever received out of that, because he - 13 - he always spoke on the part of -- there was -- there 14 was houses that were basically uprooted and moved. 15 Some of the houses were uprooted and fell 16 apart and the way he viewed it to me was, you know, you 17 can uproot those things, you can uproot a tree and if you 18 don't water it when you go to replant it, it just 19 basically dies. 20 So I don't -- see -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- I don't know if the dollar sign is 23 a -- is a remedy or not, like. 24 Q: Okay. And just so I understand what 25 you said earlier, Mr. George, your view was you told us
581 that you got a thousand dollars ($1,000)? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And you got it in 1995? Is that what 4 you said? 5 A: No, no, no. I think it was '85, I 6 said. 7 Q: Sorry, 1985. 8 A: I think so. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I don't really know offhand. I think 11 it was '85 that -- 12 Q: Okay, okay. 'Cause I wanted to refer 13 back to the Kettle and Stony Point Council press release, 14 and for the assistance of Counsel that's 7000132. This 15 is again the press release that was issued by the Kettle 16 and Stony Point Council on May the 7th, 1993. 17 And you'll see if we go down the page just 18 a little bit, it says: 19 "The Chief and Council would like to 20 clarify the following issues as well," 21 And under Point 1: 22 "Equal distribution payments were made 23 to every man, woman and child who was 24 eligible at the time when the 25 compensation payments were handed out
591 in 1980, and clearly --" 2 A: There you go, it is 1980. 3 Q: "And clearly identifiable records are 4 available for review". 5 Is that the -- the records that you're 6 talking about that had dollar figures and numbers 7 attached to names? 8 A: That's not the -- the information 9 that I was talking about. The information that I -- I 10 had seen was -- were listed the houses back in 1942 -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- that were being moved and the 13 amount of monies that they were paying for labour to 14 uproot the houses and move them. That's -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- this is 1980. This is a different 17 thing here, that -- that I -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: This is my first time actually seeing 20 this letter. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Like I -- I remember getting a 23 thousand dollars ($1,000) and like I remember the -- the 24 meeting was at the ball Park and there was a lot of 25 people at the ball Park that -- you know, some thought it
601 was good and some had their different opinions. 2 Q: Okay. And I think you've given some 3 evidence yesterday about when you first occupied the 4 Base, that is in May of 1993. 5 I think you told us that you don't recall 6 being told by anyone from the Military that you were 7 trespassing or that you ought not to be there. 8 Is that -- do you recall that? 9 A: When I got there, there was just my 10 relatives and some of the old people and their kids and 11 their grand kids, that's -- there wasn't no Military 12 people around when I got there. It was later on and 13 towards the evening time when -- when I got there, like 14 after work, eh? 15 Q: Okay. I want to ask you then, over 16 the course of May of 1993, did you receive or did any of 17 the occupiers so far as you know, receive a letter from 18 the Military saying that you had been given a verbal 19 warning, that you were trespassing and the letter also 20 said that you're being told to leave and take all your 21 personal possessions. 22 Do you recall that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. I'm just wondering if we can 25 put that document up on the screen and maybe that would
611 assist you in terms of whether or not you've seen that. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, 3 I'm referring to the Inquiry Document Number 7000283. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: And you'll see that's a letter, Mr. 7 George, signed by Captain Dodson dated May 15th, 1993 8 saying number 1, that the Department of National Defence 9 is the legal title holder for the lands known as Camp 10 Ipperwash. 11 And second, having been given a verbal 12 warning that you were trespassing on Department of 13 National Defence property. And I just wanted to stop 14 there. 15 Were you told that you were given a 16 verbal warning that you were trespassing? 17 A: No, I wasn't. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know of did you have 19 information if any of the other occupiers were told that 20 they were trespassing on Department of National Defence 21 property? 22 A: I remember hearing them talk about 23 that. Like at the Camp on -- on that side of the creek 24 there, I was still at work, eh. I -- the next -- I 25 worked -- I worked til about May 24 weekend --
621 Q: Okay. 2 A: --- for the Council at Kettle Point 3 doing a sewer project that they had and I was arriving 4 towards the evenings over there and I used to hear the 5 things that were being told to those people that were 6 there during the day. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I used to leave in the morning to go 9 to work and come back after work to -- to the Camp site 10 there and I remember hearing them say that they -- they 11 were at that time talking of being told they were 12 trespassing. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And -- and I remember at that same 15 time they -- they were -- they were going over old 16 documents about how they were going to use the system. 17 Meaning they -- they had a peace agreement -- I can't 18 remember which one it was whether it was the Treaty of 19 Ghent or there -- there was another peace agreement that 20 -- that listed in there that they -- they were just in 21 what they were doing because they -- they had used a 22 bailiff who was a league subject to serve these people 23 with an eviction notice. And -- 24 Q: I'm sorry, just to interrupt, that 25 bailiff was Scott Ewart?
631 A: Scott Ewart. 2 Q: Okay. And he was someone who was 3 retained by the occupiers to serve papers on the 4 Military? 5 A: I -- 6 Q: Or he did that for you? He did that 7 for the occupiers? 8 A: I really don't know. I -- I know 9 that he was acting on behalf of the people of Stoney 10 Point Aazhoodena. I don't if the term occupiers was who 11 he was retained by or -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- I never -- I never was present to 14 -- to witness him being retained. It's like this letter 15 here, I wasn't there when that hap -- when that was 16 delivered. Like I heard of it. 17 Q: Okay. Okay. You just heard about 18 it. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And at that point in time as I 21 understand, the -- and when I -- I want to -- I want to 22 see if I can use language that hits the spot a little 23 bit. Just so you know over the course of the Inquiry to 24 date often, that people who were in the basin in the Park 25 have been referred to as occupiers. But if there's
641 another term that makes more sense to you, I'll try to 2 use that. 3 So if the Stoney Point people is better 4 language for you? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Is that -- is that language -- that 7 that would be better? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. So at or about that time that 10 is in May or the summer of 1993, I understand that the 11 Stoney Point group had also retained Tony Ross to 12 represent them? 13 Did you know about that? 14 A: I -- I'm not sure on dates. I think 15 it was more around June maybe. 16 Q: Around June of 1993? 17 A: I think it might have been at the end 18 of May, 1st of June, I don't -- I have I think some of 19 the documentation at home but I -- I don't think I can 20 remember right off hand. 21 Q: Okay. And I wanted to move on then 22 into the summer of 1993. You were asked some questions 23 yesterday about the helicopter shooting. And I 24 understand that you were on the Base that night -- 25 A: Hmm hmm, yes.
651 Q: -- and you told us that you were 2 attending to a fire that night? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And there was -- there was a 5 couple of things I wanted to ask you about that. One of 6 the documents that we've been given by the Commission is 7 a document that describes an interview with Cleve 8 Jackson. 9 Do you know him? 10 A: I know Cleve Jackson. 11 Q: Okay. And in that interview -- and 12 that's at -- for the assistance of Counsel, that is the 13 Inquiry Document Number 2004137. 14 One (1) of the things he says in that 15 document is that on the night of August the 23rd, that is 16 the night of the helicopter shooting, that you were -- 17 you were -- you were on the Base and you were attending a 18 ceremony feast for Cleve's dead mother. 19 Do you recall attending that? If you 20 think back a little bit? 21 A: This is August 23rd? 22 Q: August 23rd, 1993. 23 A: August 23rd -- I'm -- I'm not quite 24 sure. Is this a -- is this -- is there such a thing as a 25 Cleve, Jr.?
661 Q: Well, let me just go through this a 2 little bit with you and see if we can make sense of this. 3 It's an interview with a Cleve Lincoln Jackson. 4 A: Cleve Lincoln Jackson? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: I -- 7 Q: And he gives his date of birth in the 8 interview, but it's been blacked out so we can't see it 9 so I can't help you if he's the younger or the older. 10 A: Oh, you just -- you just explained 11 that. Like, Cleve Jackson is -- is his father and Cleve 12 Lincoln Jackson is -- he -- he goes by, "Lincoln." 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: Yeah, I -- I don't remember the 15 feast, but I do remember arriving at an accident scene 16 where I helped pull the van off of his mother. Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I remember that, but I -- I don't 19 remember attending a feast. 20 Q: Okay. And -- and I just -- I'll just 21 read you a little bit of an excerpt from this statement 22 and I'll just see if that helps refresh your memory a 23 bit. Maybe you recall it and maybe you don't, or maybe 24 you disagree. I don't know, but I just want to try to 25 put a little context in it for you.
671 He says -- there's a question asked: 2 "So, on the night of the helicopter 3 shooting you're having a ceremony for 4 your deceased mother and this was held 5 at the Camp?" 6 And what the response is: 7 "In the Georges' Camp. There was Abe's 8 trailer, Cliff -- I believe Cliff 9 George's trailer was around there. 10 Dave wasn't too far away. I really 11 can't recall, there were at least five 12 (5) trailers in the vicinity of --" 13 And then there's a question: 14 "Okay, do you recall who was there? Or 15 whoever you can recall, first and last 16 names, that might have been in the Camp 17 that night?" 18 And what he says is: 19 "My aunt, Joanne Jackson; my aunt, Jane 20 Manning --" 21 And there's some other inaudible things, 22 and then he says: 23 "And, like, Dave was around. He wasn't 24 participating. A lot of people weren't 25 participating, like, Glenn George was
681 there." 2 So, I wonder if that helps you a little 3 bit to put your mind back to -- 4 A: I -- I don't really recall that, but 5 I know if there was a -- a ceremony where people needed 6 help, I usually helped out; that was my nature. I 7 didn't -- 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: -- I didn't leave, you know, people 10 where if they needed help, I generally helped them. 11 Q: Okay. And I just -- you had talked a 12 little bit about timing yesterday; that is, when the 13 helicopters or helicopter was often flying over and you 14 said it was often at two o'clock in the morning? 15 A: The -- the -- 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: -- first experience that I had was at 18 -- 2:00 in the morning and -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- I'm positive there was three (3) 21 to four (4) other times, maybe -- maybe two (2) to three 22 (3), maybe four (4) to five (5). I don't know for sure, 23 but I know that they were all at -- at -- around two 24 o'clock. 25 Q: Okay. Because I anticipate that
691 we're going to hear evidence that on the night of August 2 23rd, 1993, the night of the helicopter shooting, that 3 the helicopter was flying over the Camp and it was at 4 about 10:23 at night. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Okay. And I anticipate we're going 9 to hear evidence that a light was shining from the 10 helicopter onto the ground. 11 Do you remember that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Lighting up the area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that the helicopter's floodlights 16 were turned off; that is, it went dark and almost 17 immediately after that, the helicopter was lit up from 18 spotlights in the Camp. 19 Do you recall that? People shining their 20 spotlights on the helicopter? 21 A: I think they shined the lights on the 22 helicopter before the lights come on the helicopter. I'm 23 -- I'm pretty positive of that. 24 Q: Okay, okay. So the helicopter was 25 lit up from the spotlights in the Camp?
701 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Not a helicopter, helicopters. There 4 was about four (4) of them. 5 Q: On the night of August 23rd, you're 6 saying -- 7 A: Every night there -- they didn't come 8 with one (1), there was always four (4). 9 Q: Okay. I want you to think really 10 carefully, because I anticipate the evidence is going to 11 be there was one (1) helicopter that night. 12 A: No, there was never one (1) -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: There was always four (4). They 15 always came -- 16 Q: You're saying -- 17 A: -- in four (4) -- 18 Q: -- there were four (4) -- four (4) 19 helicopters that night? 20 A: All the times that I seen the 21 helicopters -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- come there, there was always four 24 (4). 25 Q: Okay. And I wanted to then move on
711 to the winter of 1993 and 1994. Because we've heard some 2 evidence previously that on February the 22nd, 1994, the 3 government announced that the closure and return of Camp 4 Ipperwash to the Band, that is the Kettle and Stony Point 5 Band was part of the 1994 budget. 6 Did you hear that? Are you aware of that? 7 A: I remember hearing them list 8 closures, yeah. I remember hearing that. 9 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 10 previously that the government would only negotiate with 11 the Kettle and Stony Point Band about the return of the 12 Base. 13 A: I -- 14 Q: Was that something that you were 15 aware of at the time? 16 A: I think I heard that, yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And I take it your view at the 18 time was that the Stoney Point people ought to be 19 involved in the negotiations for the return of that land; 20 that is, the Base. 21 A: I, myself had that understanding that 22 ever since 1942 that they themselves had wanted to, you 23 know, talk about the return of their community. Not 24 somebody else. Not -- no geographical different place or 25 community.
721 Q: Okay. And in your view at the time, 2 could the Kettle and Stony Point Band negotiate about the 3 return of the land on behalf of the Stoney Point people? 4 A: I, myself by the help of my Mom and 5 my Dad were always under that impression that, like, the 6 land claims themselves were basically kind of like 7 treated as whoever had the time and energy would -- if 8 that's what they wanted to do, basically, then they would 9 do it. 10 It's no different than the West Ipperwash 11 land which belonged to my grandfather Morris George that 12 my Mother's side of the family, she -- she had always 13 been active in that role of trying to reclaim those lost 14 lands. 15 And that my dad had the similar -- similar 16 story as to being uprooted at the age of twenty-one (21) 17 from the Stoney Point lands that -- that was just another 18 creation of a -- of a thing that my dad had to live 19 through as being viewed as a -- basically a -- what do 20 you call those where people are moved from one place to 21 another without any kind of knowledge or -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- planning? It was -- 24 Q: But -- but to get back to my 25 question. At that time, were you content with the Kettle
731 and Stony Point Band negotiating the return of the Base, 2 or was it your view that the Stoney Point people ought to 3 be doing that negotiating? 4 A: See, to me, my understanding is I 5 never got chance to finish there. Right from 1942, right 6 on up to -- to where we actually physically had to move 7 onto the land, that's where the decisions came a lot 8 clearer, that you could always get people that would want 9 to try and negotiate these things to physically see it 10 put on paper and then wawauna (phonetic), wawauna 11 beaujour (phonetic) is -- is you're going to make it 12 real. 13 That's what come out in our language is 14 wawauna, you're going to make it real, you had to 15 physically move there. 16 And that was how the term, where our 17 Elders would being our witnesses, that we were basically 18 the ones that were uprooted, were the ones that were 19 basically telling us that those lands were private 20 property and not viewed as communal lands that -- that 21 council has -- had that view that they were communal 22 lands that -- that they were to make decisions on it. 23 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me just stop you 24 there so I understand. Those lands were private 25 property, that means the -- the land at the Base was
741 private property -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- for the Stoney Point people. 4 A: The ones that were uprooted were the 5 -- were the ones that had that I guess challenge before 6 them to move there. 7 Q: Okay. So it wasn't something that 8 was for the Kettle and Stony Point Band to make a 9 decision about? It was for the Stoney Point people to 10 make a decision about? 11 A: I'm -- I'm sharing with you the time 12 frame of -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- from 1942 to the time that they 15 moved in there, it was a collective thing. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: That it was a job that all of the 18 people tried to get the land back because of the 19 circumstances at hand that exists this very day, where 20 you have people that basically are imposing upon another 21 group of people. And that's what we are dealing with -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- today where there's a group of 24 people that have been imposed upon and there's a group of 25 people that have been basically uprooted.
751 Q: Right. 2 A: And that was the -- the remedy that 3 they had sought after, was to basically move home without 4 disrupting, you know, the -- the reserve at Kettle Point. 5 Q: Okay. So once -- once the Stoney 6 Point group moved onto the land, at that point in time 7 was it -- and by moving onto the land I mean moving onto 8 the Base. 9 Once they took that step and it was 10 private land, was it really their dispute with the 11 government to get that land back? 12 A: That's who had basically uprooted 13 them, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 15 questions yesterday about your role as a councillor and a 16 chief. And I wasn't sure I understood some of your 17 evidence, so I just wanted to go back briefly to a 18 couple of things about that. 19 I understand that in June of 1993, there 20 was an election among the Stoney Point group and that 21 Maynard T. George was acclaimed as the chief of the 22 Stoney Point First Nation. 23 And you were one of the councillors that 24 was elected; is that right? 25 A: Here we go again, day 2. I had no
761 involvement of -- of the election. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I know I heard that Carl was the one 4 that was elected. 5 Q: I'm talking about 1993 and maybe I 6 can give you some assistance here, Mr. George. 7 A: That's what I mean, 1993. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: I'm pretty sure that Maynard and 10 Carl, I -- I forget, there was someone else that -- that 11 was having this election and -- 12 Q: Okay. If you wait for one minute, 13 I'm going to see if we can get a document put on the 14 screen and see if that helps a little bit, okay? And 15 it's the document of the Commission, 2002693. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 And if we can go down to the bottom of 20 that page you'll see an article and this is from the 21 London Free Press dated June 14, 1993. It says: 22 "Maynard T. George is acclaimed chief." 23 And if we look at the paragraphs below 24 that, it says: 25 "Maynard T. George was acclaimed
771 Saturday as the chief of the Stoney 2 Point First Nation. Elected to council 3 in the first election the Band has had 4 were, Glenn George, Dean Cloud, Janet 5 Cloud, Carmen Roger Sr., Clifford 6 George and Bert Manning. 7 Now do you recall the election in the 8 summer of 1993, where Maynard George was acclaimed chief 9 and you were one of the councillors that was elected? 10 A: I -- I don't remember even taking 11 part in the election. 12 Q: The question to you is, do you 13 remember that you were a councillor? You were elected a 14 councillor in the summer of 1993? 15 A: I don't recall -- 16 Q: Don't you? 17 A: -- anyone, like, coming to me and -- 18 and saying to me that, I'm going to nominate you for this 19 position. I had the -- the same type of thing happen to 20 me in Kettle Point where I was also nominated for chief 21 and nominated for Council over there and none of those 22 people who nominated me cared to ask me or let me know 23 that they were going to do this on my behalf or their 24 behalf or whatever. I -- I just basically let those 25 people do what those people were going to do.
781 Q: Sure. 2 A: I didn't disrupt what they were doing 3 simply because I, you know -- 4 Q: And I'm going to suggest that you 5 were elected? They did what they were going to do? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you were elected, in the summer 8 of 1993, as a councilor? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Yeah? Okay. And then I'm going to 11 suggest to you that, in 1994, there was another election 12 and you were re-elected again as councilor; do you 13 remember that? 14 A: I'm -- 15 Q: Okay. And I'll help you out here 16 again, okay? So, this is the Commission Document 1003680 17 and this is an article from the Sarnia Observer dated May 18 18th, 1994, and it says: 19 "Carl George has been re-elected chief 20 at the Stoney Point Group." 21 And it says: 22 "He defeated challenger, Janet Cloud." 23 And then if we go over a little bit on the 24 right-hand side of the page on the second column halfway 25 down, you'll see it says:
791 "Group members elected to council on 2 the weekend were Glenn George, Roberta 3 George, Terry George, Roderick George, 4 Bruce Manning, and Marlene Cloud." 5 And do you remember, in May of 1994, being 6 elected a councilor again? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: No? You don't remember councillors 9 with those people? 10 A: All's I remember is that I used to 11 share that same interest of -- of basically getting the 12 land back. I don't recall being -- given this title. 13 Again, it -- it's that part of I was never asked type of 14 thing and -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- I don't remember casting any 17 ballots or -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- in any election. I -- I never 20 partook in any kind of election on Stoney Point until 21 this day. 22 Q: Okay. And you don't recall being 23 elected to council, in May of 1994? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And you told us a little bit
801 about the fall and the winter of 1994 and you talked a 2 little bit yesterday and we heard evidence earlier that 3 stolen cars were being taken into the Base and burnt 4 there often or left there and I think you told us 5 yesterday something like two (2) dozen were -- stolen 6 cars were on the Base. 7 Do you -- do you recall that? 8 A: I -- I heard through the people in 9 there that, yeah, they had dealt with numerous, like, 10 people were driving right through the fence and -- 11 Q: And that's the fence at Outer Drive? 12 A: All the fences. 13 Q: All the fences? 14 A: There -- there was -- there was times 15 that they come in from down by the lake over the dunes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: There -- there was occasions that I - 18 - I seen them come in off of Army Camp Road. I seen 19 them, you know, like -- like the -- the fences where 20 people just drove right in, drove around for a while and 21 that was it. They torched them and then left. 22 Q: Sure. And I anticipate we're going 23 to hear evidence that in the fall of 1994, as a result of 24 all these stolen cars being on the Base, or coming into 25 the Base, that the Municipality decided to dig a ditch
811 along Outer Drive in an attempt to stop that traffic 2 coming in. Did you know about that? 3 A: I know that -- I think it was Carl, 4 at that time that was heading that, because I think he 5 was -- I think more so there during the day type of 6 thing. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Like, in 1994, I -- I had gone back 9 to work for Bill Johnson and I'd been -- a lot of times I 10 was getting there, like, towards evening. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: I'd be gone, like 6:00 in the morning 13 and get home at 6:00 at night -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- and that went on to -- I think I 16 worked the whole year. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So there's things -- 19 Q: I an -- yeah. Let me just go on a 20 little bit, though. I anticipate that we're going to 21 hear evidence that on November 10th, 1994, the municipal 22 road crew was digging that ditch along Outer Drive and 23 from inside the Base, a vehicle drove along the fence 24 line where they were, and three (3) gunshots were fired. 25 Did you hear about that?
821 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And I also anticipate that 3 we're going to hear some evidence that after that, that 4 is after November the 10th, 1994, Charlie Bowman who 5 you've told us you know, came to speak with you and 6 Roderick George to try and encourage you to assist the 7 municipality in getting that ditch dug safely. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A: I don't remember if Roderick was 10 there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I'm having a hard time picturing 13 Charlie Bowman coming there other than -- I think it was 14 -- I think it was the -- the time I met with Charlie 15 Bowman was when the -- the police were wanting to patrol 16 the beach. 17 I think that's about the only time I think 18 I met with him. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall that Carl George 20 had already had discussions about letting that ditch be 21 dug and that you were concerned because he hadn't 22 consulted with you or others, before making that 23 decision? 24 Do you recall that? 25 A: I remember after everything was done
831 that -- that I had to kind of like bring an awareness to 2 them because it was -- it was a thing that was against 3 our culture that -- that inside the barracks, which is 4 basically fenced off and then you got the Military Base 5 itself that was fenced off, that I remember explaining to 6 them that I had read in the -- in the old council minutes 7 that -- that were taken from the RG-10 file in Ottawa at 8 the archives that I remember seeing in there that they -- 9 they used to fence the gardens off in case some of the 10 livestock got loose, that they usually had them penned 11 in. 12 But if they got loose, it was a thing that 13 when people were living as they -- as they used to be 14 inside the Camp that they were -- they were fencing their 15 gardens off so that -- in case of a horse or a -- or a 16 pig or a cow or something like that got loose, that it 17 wouldn't eat your -- your food supply that -- it would be 18 able to roam wherever and then they'd go and retrieve it 19 whenever they found out it was missing. 20 That -- that's -- that was the reasons 21 they fenced those things off. Same thing as like the -- 22 the cemeteries. They -- they used to basically put 23 borders around them and it was a thing that some of them 24 used to talk about that they -- they never used to put a 25 doorway on them.
841 Like they would put like a border around 2 them, they wouldn't fence it out. It would be kind of 3 like where they weren't dying to get in or they weren't 4 dying to get out, type of thing. 5 Q: Sure. Did you have a concern, 6 though, in or around November of 1994, that Carl George 7 was making decisions on your behalf and the other Stoney 8 Pointers behalf, without consulting you first? 9 A: I -- like again, I kind of heard the 10 -- the -- the part about the stolen cars. Like I -- I've 11 only seen one (1) and it was a truck that was burning. I 12 never seen the two (2) dozen cars. I -- this is what was 13 shared within our -- our little meeting place that we had 14 built that we were encountering these -- these people 15 coming and doing these things. 16 And I -- I remember hearing that part 17 being proposed that we were -- they were going to put a 18 stop to it somehow and I said, well, if you got to do it, 19 you got to do it, I'm at work. If you can look after it, 20 fine. 21 You know, that's the way that we dealt 22 with those types of things and if -- if Carl is viewed 23 as, you know, as the chief making that decision, well 24 then he's the chief that made the decision. 25 Q: And in your view, he would have had
851 every right to do that, as the chief, at the time? 2 A: I don't think you need to be a chief 3 to -- to block a road off. It was basically a whole in a 4 fence, that's all it was. 5 Q: Okay. But to make the decision on 6 behalf of the Stoney Point group, is it -- 7 A: I -- I, myself, I -- I never 8 addressed Carl as a chief simply because I wasn't a 9 chief. And to me I don't really truly understand how, 10 you know, like the -- that view of someone being a chief, 11 you know, making a decision over how stolen cars are 12 going to be stopped from coming in and out. We just 13 basically viewed we're going to put a stop to what it is 14 that's going on some way or another. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Because we had reinforced the fence 17 and they drove right through it. We reinforced it again, 18 they done it again. So it was like sooner or later 19 somebody was going to dig a little trench to -- to block 20 them off. And it wasn't you had this title to go and do 21 this. It was basically -- I would have done it myself if 22 I wasn't at work. 23 Q: Okay. So your view, I take it then, 24 was that you agreed with the ditch being dug and you 25 didn't have a concern about discussions Carl George had
861 with the Base or the Municipality about digging that 2 ditch? 3 A: I don't really recall him -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- sharing with me as -- as a meeting 6 with Bosanquet Township or anybody. I just -- I was 7 under the assumption that this was something that was 8 there and it needed to be done and I wasn't in -- in the 9 position to say you go do it or you go do it and neither 10 was he. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: It was just a thing that had to be 13 done and it got done. 14 Q: Okay. And I'm going to ask if we can 15 have another document put up on the screen and this is 16 Document Number 2001976. And I'm putting this up because 17 it is a newspaper article that is date April 18th, 1995 18 and I just want to see if I can refer to a couple 19 passages in it and see if we can get a better sense of 20 what was happening in the spring of 1995. 21 Now this is a little hard to read I can 22 see, but if you -- we go to the right-hand side of the 23 document and just to put a little context around this for 24 you, Mr. George, this was an article about the 25 environmental assessment that the Department of Natural
871 Defence -- National Defence was going to conduct before 2 the Base was turned back over. 3 And do you recall discussions in the 4 spring of 1995 about the environmental assessment? 5 A: I'm pretty sure -- I'm pretty sure 6 that those discussions happened constantly ever since we 7 moved there from '93 right on up. And as -- as far as 8 I'm concerned I -- I think that there was that political 9 realm from -- from Kettle Point that was using the media 10 to -- to -- I don't know if it was like to ruffle the 11 feathers of the people in the Camp or what it was. 12 But it was like to my understanding there 13 was no real dialogue with that Chief and Council with 14 anybody in -- in the Camp. 15 Q: Oh. I think -- I was going to ask 16 you about that. Because on the right-hand side we'll see 17 there's a bullet point that says, Carl George. If we 18 just go up a little bit on the right hand side. I don't 19 know if that move over a little bit more. It doesn't 20 work very well. Anyway it says: 21 "Carl George, Chief Stoney Point First 22 Nation. The Stoney Point natives are 23 trying to reach through lawyers, a 24 working agreement with the Kettle and 25 Stony Point Bands to put aside their
881 differences. 2 We don't want to argue with Kettle 3 Point council. All we want is for the 4 council to listen to us. We should be 5 able to have a say." 6 And I wanted to ask you a little bit about 7 that and see if you know what was going on at that time; 8 that is in April of 1995. 9 And first of all, from your knowledge was 10 your lawyer and a Kettle and Stony Point lawyer having 11 discussions to try and resolve the differences between 12 Stoney Point and Kettle and Stony Point? 13 A: I myself was involved in -- in a 14 working agreement that goes back to '93 that myself and 15 some of the Elders and some of the younger people were 16 involved trying to formalize a -- a working agreement 17 with the Chief and Council at Kettle Point. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And it is to my understanding now 20 that Carl George had never really lived on the Base and 21 that there was -- there was information that -- that we 22 had gotten from consultants out of Ottawa that consisted 23 of about twenty (20) boxes of information dealing with 24 this whole Kettle and Stony Point property here? 25 Q: Yes.
891 A: That it's -- it's kind of evident now 2 that, like, where Carl is, he's -- he's gotten himself a 3 job and he's gotten himself a -- a brand new house in -- 4 on Kettle Point. And to me it was -- it was kind of like 5 he -- there he is, he's sitting pretty high and mighty 6 now and I'm still living in an old barracks that, you 7 know, I've -- I've been there since the day that these 8 people moved in there. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And -- 11 Q: Let me -- let me just go back to what 12 you said a little bit -- Was Carl George involved in the 13 discussions with Kettle and Stony Point Band in terms 14 of -- 15 A: I can't -- 16 Q: -- the Stoney Point lands? 17 A: I -- can only share with you what I 18 just got done telling you. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I -- I know he -- he must have had 21 some kind of discussions with them, he's got a brand new 22 house and he's got a job that -- that he works down 23 there. And, you know, I -- I know there for a fact that 24 this information that come from our consultants that we 25 had gotten out of Ottawa, that he had taken that to
901 Kettle Point with him. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So, I don't know how it is that, you 4 know, when -- when you're asking me of him being a chief, 5 it -- it would only seem to me to explain to you where he 6 is now, because I don't know how to answer those types of 7 questions. 8 Q: Okay. When I listen to you talk, Mr. 9 George, it sounds like what you're saying is that Carl 10 George was acting on behalf of the Kettle and Stony Point 11 Band and not the Stoney Pointers? 12 Is that what you're saying? 13 A: I'm not going to say, I'm going to 14 let you say it, because I would like to see, like, all 15 the people in -- in Stoney Point have nice houses too. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: That's -- I'm not just saying that if 18 you come to -- into the Camp and then you leave and then 19 you go back to Kettle Point, you're going to get a house. 20 I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's what happened. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: But I'm not saying that everybody 23 that -- that's come there, like, I know Clifford come to 24 live at the Camp and he went back to Kettle Point and 25 they never give him a house, how come?
911 Q: Okay. 2 A: See, this is what I'm saying, that -- 3 is -- is that certain people have, I guess -- 4 Q: Benefited in ways that others 5 haven't. 6 A: -- priorities of -- of -- 7 Q: Right. 8 A: -- getting housing, I guess. I -- I 9 don't know. I don't know what kind of -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- agreements he's made. That's -- 12 Q: Okay. Because we've heard some 13 evidence back in the fall from Marlin Simon that he had 14 heard rumours that Carl George was having or coming up 15 with deals with Kettle and Stony Point Band and the 16 Military that he and other people at Stoney Point didn't 17 know about. 18 And that was a concern? Was that 19 something that you had a concern about at the time? 20 A: These -- 21 Q: Or you developed since? 22 A: These were meetings in '95? 23 Q: What the information from Marlin was, 24 that his understanding about why Carl George was no 25 longer chief -- I asked him some questions about that and
921 he talked about a few concerns that he had heard of. One 2 (1) was that Carl George was entering into deals or there 3 were concerns he was entering into deals with the 4 Military and Kettle Point that other Stoney Pointers 5 weren't aware of. 6 A: I would have to agree because I don't 7 know of any agreements like that, either, but if Marlin 8 has, then I don't really know. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I -- I've never been -- 11 Q: My question was, though: Did you 12 have any concerns at the time; that is in the spring of 13 1995 -- 14 A: In this spring of 1995? 15 Q: -- about whether or not Carl George 16 was acting on your behalf, and by "you" I mean the Stoney 17 Point Group or whether you had concerns that he might be 18 doing other things that would benefit him, maybe, and not 19 you? 20 A: I think what he's gotten benefited 21 him. It didn't benefit me and I -- I don't know too much 22 about the spring of 1995 of him having meetings. I know 23 that there's a lot of different meetings that take place 24 between numerous individuals. And I don't know, like, 25 and I want -- I want to bring this back again to that, I
931 don't know who was involved in -- in allowing the OPP to 2 -- to patrol the beachfront. 3 See, this -- this is the thing that I 4 remember. I -- I got home from work that day and my 5 mother said that she just got off the phone with Rose 6 Manning and she said to my mother that Carl let them 7 patrol the beach and my mother says to me, You better go 8 and straighten that out because it's disputed land. 9 Q: Okay, well let me go back to that a 10 little bit because I anticipate we're going to hear 11 evidence that the OPP had been conducting ATV patrols of 12 the beach area from Kettle Point to Point Franks ever 13 since the summer of 1994? 14 A: Maybe so, I -- 15 Q: That that had happened the summer 16 before. Do you recall that? 17 A: I -- I don't really know if they were 18 out there patrolling. Like I patrolled the same area on 19 -- on the beach front and even when I go to Kettle Point 20 and visit my relatives or go home to the old home or 21 whatever, I usually sometimes take the beach because it's 22 a nice little cruise. 23 Maybe you might find -- you know, do your 24 little beach combing, maybe find some fish lures or 25 something like that. It was always -- this was viewed as
941 our beach and that's why we used it. 2 And I don't know where -- you know like 3 when -- when one person starts making decisions, I don't 4 really -- I don't really know all of them, like -- 5 Q: Well, let me go back just a little 6 bit. I anticipate we're going to hear evidence that in 7 1993, for the first time the Stoney Point group set up a 8 Camp or camps on the Military beach area. 9 Do you recall that? People moving down 10 there in the summer time? 11 A: I probably was a part of that. 12 Like -- 13 Q: Sure. And I anticipate we're going 14 to hear evidence that there were a number of concerns 15 raised from cottagers and other people in the area about 16 the drinking that was going on in the beach and other 17 concerns about how the occupiers were behaving. 18 Did you hear any concerns like that, or 19 were they expressed to you in 1993? 20 A: I, myself, living in that area, I've 21 -- I've -- I don't know of those exact things that you 22 speak of, but I know for a fact that living on the 14th 23 Concession which is called Rawlings Road now, basically 24 the first house on Kettle Point, taken straight down to 25 West Ipperwash is -- is basically where my grandfather
951 had owned that land. 2 Like, in between the Army Camp and Kettle 3 Point beach there was always that constant drinking going 4 on there, too. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: See, and that's the thing that, to 7 us, you know, I don't know how it is you would really 8 want to like answer that. Because I've seen boats come 9 from way off in the distance come ashore there and unload 10 stuff and take off and do it again. 11 And this wasn't the people from the 12 community at Kettle Point or Stoney Point that was doing 13 these things. 14 Q: Okay. So a variety of people then 15 would be drinking on the beach, not just the Stoney Point 16 group? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah. And I anticipate we're going 19 to hear that because of complaints and concerns about 20 what was happening on the beach, that in 1993 the OPP 21 starting conducting ATV patrols of the beach area, all 22 the way from Kettle Point to Point Franks and -- 23 A: I -- 24 Q: -- did you know that at all? 25 A: -- have no knowledge of that.
961 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 2 you that having the OPP patrol the beach area then, or 3 say that they were going to patrol the beach area in the 4 summer of 1994 wasn't something that was new? 5 It had already been ongoing for some time? 6 A: I can't really remember what -- what 7 time that was that I -- that I went and approached Carl 8 because I'm kind of lost at dates right now. 9 I know that, yeah, I went to him and I 10 went to -- you know, and told him that he's not the guy 11 giving anybody that kind of permission to do such a 12 thing. 13 And I made it clear that -- you know, that 14 I didn't consent to that because I had told him that that 15 land was under dispute. 16 Q: Well, it -- wasn't it even a little 17 bit more than that. Not only was the land under dispute, 18 but you -- you meaning the Stoney Point group, was 19 occupying it -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- at the time and you didn't want 22 the OPP or other people coming onto the land. 23 A: Exactly. 24 Q: Yeah. And so that was your concern? 25 A: No, we was -- I told you --
971 Q: Oh, no -- 2 A: -- my mother called me up and told me 3 this, eh? 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Like I had no knowledge of what -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- he was doing. 8 Q: Okay. In any event -- 9 A: It was the Elders -- 10 Q: -- you told us -- 11 A: -- that raised -- 12 Q: You told us -- 13 A: -- that concern to me. 14 Q: -- you had this discussion with Carl 15 George saying that he couldn't say that on your behalf or 16 other people's behalf -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: Right? And -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- I anticipate we're going to hear 21 evidence that Carl George after that time, that is at or 22 about early May of 1995 was no longer considered the 23 chief of the Stoney Point group. 24 A: I don't look at him as ever being a 25 chief. I don't know why you're dwelling on him. I think
981 there's more important things to dwell on here. Yeah, 2 this is just my -- 3 Q: I am just here asking you questions, 4 Mr. George. 5 A: Sure. 6 Q: And I understand that you were one 7 (1) of the people that told Carl George he couldn't speak 8 on your behalf? 9 A: I don't recall telling him that. I 10 remember telling him that he's -- he's not going to grant 11 anybody permission to do what he was doing on the beach, 12 eh? Like, he -- he -- he was the guy that -- who I had 13 heard -- see, and this -- I got to go through it again. 14 Rose Manning called my mother stating that 15 Carl gave the OPP permission to patrol the beach and I 16 got home from work that day and my mother says to me, she 17 says that Carl let the police patrol the beach and so you 18 better find out what's going on. 19 So, on my way I went to Carl's and I 20 asked him, Is this true? Did you do that? And his 21 response to me was, They were going to do it anyway. And 22 that's when I told him the land was under dispute and if 23 anybody was going to patrol it that the people of Stoney 24 Point would patrol it and here we are today, patrolling 25 the beach.
991 Q: I anticipate that we're going to hear 2 evidence, Mr. George, that on May 17th of 1995, that you 3 and another person went to see Charlie Bowman in -- at 4 the Grand Bend Detachment and you told -- 5 A: That was May 17th? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: Let me write that down. 8 Q: Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Okay. I anticipate we're going to 13 hear evidence that on May 17th, 1995 you and another 14 person from the Stoney Point group went to the Grand Bend 15 Detachment and told Charlie Bowman that you had had a 16 council meeting and that Carl George was kicked out as 17 your chief. 18 Do you recall that? 19 A: I don't recall ever making the 20 statement that Carl being kicked out his being chief. I 21 don't ever make the statement of him as being a chief. I 22 went to talk to Charlie Bowman to tell him that -- that 23 part of what was said and done was not agreed upon by the 24 Stoney Point people as a whole because it was where, I 25 just explained to you, that my mother told me when I got
1001 home from work that Rose Manning had told her -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- that Carl let the police patrol 4 the beach and that you better straighten that out because 5 it's disputed land and you want me to say it again 6 because I'll say it again? 7 Q: If you -- if you'll listen to my 8 question and you answer the question -- 9 A: I -- I told you. 10 Q: -- we'll go a little bit faster. 11 A: -- Carl was never a chief. 12 Q: Okay. So, the question -- 13 A: Is that what you want to hear? 14 Q: I want you to answer my question, and 15 my -- 16 A: Because he doesn't exist by Carl 17 George no more. He changed his name even, it's Carl 18 Tolsma (phonetic). I just want to help you speed things 19 up. 20 Q: Oh, okay. Well, if you listen to the 21 question and answer the question, it'll go a little 22 faster. 23 My next question then, is: Did you tell 24 Charlie Bowman at that meeting that -- or did you hear at 25 that meeting, the other person you came with, say that
1011 you were now the person in charge and spokesperson? 2 A: No, I never made those statements. 3 Q: Okay. And after May of 1995 -- after 4 May 17th of 1995 -- did Carl George have any ongoing 5 involvement in the Stoney Point group or was he back at 6 Kettle Point? 7 A: I don't know what Carl done. I've 8 more things to do than to follow him around and keep tabs 9 on him. I don't know what Carl George was doing and it's 10 right there in front of you that I didn't know what he 11 was doing back then, just like I don't know what he's 12 doing now. 13 Q: Did you have any contact with Carl 14 George in May or June or July or August of 1995 about the 15 Stoney Point group? 16 A: I don't think so. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And -- and if I did -- 19 Q: To your knowledge -- I'm sorry. 20 A: -- I -- I wouldn't really have much 21 of a, like a, dialogue with him. I'd -- 22 Q: Okay. To your knowledge, did anyone 23 else at -- at -- of the Stoney Point group have ongoing 24 contact with Carl George in May or June or July or August 25 of 1995 about the affairs of the Stoney Point group?
1021 A: I can't answer that question. I 2 don't know. I can tell you that as of '93 right on up 3 there was Maynard T. George that was, I guess, having the 4 title as chief. 5 And I know that Carl was and I knew that 6 Nobby George was. There was -- there was a lot of them 7 that were claiming to be Chiefs. And all of the above 8 weren't there, weren't -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Like -- 11 Q: Did Carl George live at the Stoney 12 Point land at any time from 1993 to 1995? 13 A: I think he was there briefly. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: In the trailer. 16 Q: Okay. And Mr. George, I anticipate 17 that we're going to hear evidence that after May of 1995, 18 and in particular after Carl George was no longer chief, 19 that there was a significant increase in violence and 20 problems between the Military and the Stoney Point group. 21 And is that something that you experienced 22 was in that spring and summer of 1995, more conflict and 23 more tension with the Military? 24 A: I don't -- I don't think that changed 25 anything. I just -- I just seen that, you know, there
1031 was ones like Carl and -- and Maynard and some of them 2 were claiming to be Chiefs. 3 I know to this day Maynard is still 4 claiming to be chief, involved in adopting Chinese people 5 into the Band. These things are beyond my control -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Bringing them from Toronto, taking 8 them across into the States. It's still happening to 9 this very day and I can't control it. It's out of my -- 10 out of my reach. I -- I don't know -- 11 Q: But I'm asking you about your 12 personal experience -- 13 A: I'm sharing with you -- 14 Q: -- and that is -- 15 A: -- my personal experience -- 16 Q: -- in the -- 17 A: -- and it's still going on today 18 that -- 19 Q: -- there's no -- 20 A: -- there's people claiming to be 21 chiefs who are not chiefs. 22 Q: No. My question to you was, in the 23 spring and summer of 1995, did you experience an increase 24 in the number and the type and the range of problems 25 between the Stoney Point group and the Military at the
1041 Base? 2 That was my question to you. 3 A: That's never changed. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: That -- the only time that changed is 6 when the Military physically left; that's the only time 7 it changed. 8 Q: Okay. Well, what I want to do then, 9 Mr. George, is take you through some of the incidents 10 that I understand we'll hear evidence about and see if 11 you knew they occurred and what you knew about them, 12 okay? 13 And I want to start off in May of 1995. 14 And I anticipate we're going to hear evidence that on May 15 26th, 1995, the control tower was burnt on the Base. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: Control tower? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Control tower? I know -- I know that 22 there used to be about three (3) of those control towers 23 and -- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- and I know that there's none
1051 today. 2 Q: Okay. Do you recall that one was 3 burnt on May 26th, 1995? 4 A: I heard of it. Like, I remember it 5 being there but I don't -- I don't recall that as being a 6 thing that had anything to do with Carl being there or 7 not or -- 8 Q: I'm not -- I'm not asking you if it 9 had anything to do with -- 10 A: Maybe Carl burnt it -- 11 Q: -- Carl being there or not. 12 A: -- I don't know. 13 Q: I'm asking you if you recall on May 14 26th, 1995 -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- a control tower being burnt? 17 A: No, not -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: There's -- 20 Q: And do you recall that when the fire 21 department came to try and respond to the call, that they 22 were told by the Stoney Point group they couldn't have 23 access to the area? 24 First of all, do you recall that 25 personally?
1061 A: No. 2 Q: Or did you hear about it? 3 A: I heard about it. 4 Q: You heard about that? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And I also anticipate that 7 we're going to hear that in June of 1995 there were at 8 least three (3) occasions when the bus was used to chase 9 the Military personnel when they were on patrol. 10 And did you hear about those incidents, 11 Mr. George? 12 A: I heard of, you know, like cars and 13 busses and trucks and you name it, racing around in the 14 built-up area, yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And did you also hear about 16 them chasing or following or otherwise tracking the 17 movement of the Military when they were patrolling? 18 A: Those events went on from '93 right 19 on up until the Military left. 20 Q: Okay. And I'm -- I'm going to 21 suggest to you that the number of those incidents 22 increased and the problems increased. I'm going to 23 suggest to you for the first time in the spring and 24 summer of 1995 for example, that the Military had their 25 vehicles rammed or run into when they were patrolling
1071 around the Base. 2 A: I know that I myself was charged for 3 doing that with a tractor. 4 Q: Sure. And you did it, you told us 5 that. 6 A: And to me I -- I have this to remind 7 me on my record to this very day. 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: And I can only basically speak on 10 that because there were so many things that were going on 11 back then -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- and now that the-- the Military's 14 gone we don't have the problem period. 15 Q: Sure. Sure. You got them out and 16 they're gone. 17 A: They're gone. The problem's gone. 18 Q: Sure. And I'm just suggesting to you 19 that in the spring and summer of 1995 that there were 20 more problems. And some of those problems involved 21 incidents where Stoney Point group people or cars or 22 trucks or other vehicles made contact with or rammed the 23 Military vehicles? 24 A: I -- I seen that going on ever since 25 I went there.
1081 Q: Okay. 2 A: In '93 it was going on, '94 it was 3 going on, '95 the same thing, you know. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And as far as myself, I basically, if 6 I was going to do these things which I agree to, yeah, I 7 did them and I did them in the light of day. 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: I didn't do the things that I'd done 10 in the -- in the cover of darkness. 11 Q: Not like some people who did them in 12 the cover of darkness. 13 A: And what I done was in the light of 14 day. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: And that's the way I feel about these 17 things that I'm not going to try and hide under the cover 18 of darkness. I've got a little bit more respect for 19 things dealing with my inheritance -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- that if these things happened I 22 basically -- I'm telling you now I never had control over 23 Carl George or anybody else for that matter. I can only 24 be responsible for my own actions and that's the way it 25 is.
1091 Q: Okay. 2 A: I -- I need to add to this that to 3 this very day, I'm still being viewed as this -- this one 4 with a title that things like -- Maynard wanted to adopt 5 Chinese people into the Band like I'm not racist or 6 anything or whatever that term may be. 7 But I too have these questions relayed to 8 me from other communities as to, is this happening? Are 9 -- are you aware of this? And to me it's like I -- if I 10 could be everywhere and anywhere I could look after these 11 things in -- in the light of dark or whatever. Be there 12 in the middle of the night to look after them, I would. 13 But I -- I honestly can't be here, there and everywhere. 14 Q: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. George, 16 I suspect that Ms. Jones is going to ask you about a 17 number of incidents. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Either you 20 know about them or you don't. If you know about them, 21 you tell her. If you don't, you can tell her. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25
1101 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: One (1) of the incidents that I 3 anticipate we're going to hear evidence about, and you 4 were already asked some questions about yesterday, was 5 incidents that took place on June 22nd, 1995 that 6 involved the bus. 7 And I anticipate we're going to hear 8 evidence that the bus had gone into the built-up area and 9 had been ran into one (1) of the Military vehicles in the 10 built-up area and had then been driven away and that it 11 ended up by the training area, stopped, and that the 12 Military Police found the bus and boarded it. And we 13 heard yesterday that they reported finding empty beer 14 bottles and marijuana roaches in the bus. 15 And while they were in that area, you came 16 along and you had a confrontation with the Military 17 Police. Now, -- 18 A: This is in June? 19 Q: In June of 1995. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And I'm going to -- I anticipate that 22 we'll hear evidence that you yelled at the police -- the 23 Military Police -- and threatened to get your rifle and 24 to kill them. Do you recall that? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder if I just
1111 might interrupt briefly for a moment? 2 Mr. Commissioner, My Friend has made 3 reference to remarks that were made yesterday about the 4 finding of marijuana ends or whatever or beer bottles. 5 I'm looking at the record now; I don't seem to have that. 6 If she can refer me to that I would be happy, indeed, but 7 I don't think that that's on the record. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 10 Q: Mr. Commissioner, I can check the 11 record, but if I misspoke I apologize. I'm referring to 12 a document which is the Commission Document Number 13 7000293. And this is, just so you understand, Mr. 14 George, I appreciate that -- I -- I want to give you the 15 background on this. 16 This is a Situation Incident Report, so 17 it's a report that's put together by the Military and 18 it's about the incidents of June 21st, 1995 and it goes 19 on to June 22nd. 20 And one (1) of the paragraphs talks about 21 what happened with the bus inside the built-up area. And 22 one (1) of the -- the next paragraph then goes on to talk 23 about what happened when the Military Police found the 24 vehicle by the training area, and that was the paragraph 25 that I was referring to.
1121 But what it says in that paragraph is that 2 when you came upon the bus and the Military Police were 3 there, that you started yelling at them and swearing at 4 them and you said that you were going to get your rifle 5 and kill them. Do you recall that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And there are also, in other 8 incident reports, there are a number of different items 9 that are referred to and I just want to go through and 10 ask you, first of all, if you know of them or knew of 11 them? 12 And I'm referring now to the document that 13 is 700411, the DND Camp Ipperwash Situation Report dated 14 June 12th, 1995. And it talks about, in a five (5) -- in 15 a three (3) day period, that is, between June 9 and June 16 12 of 1995, there were five (5) incidents that occurred. 17 And the first one is that a bag of rotten 18 fish and other garbage was thrown at Military personnel. 19 And I think you told us yesterday that that was something 20 that you had done and you knew of being done, of 21 throwing things at the police? 22 A: I don't recall myself saying that. I 23 -- I recall saying that I -- I know that there was eggs 24 and fish thrown at them, but -- 25 Q: Okay.
1131 A: I never took it upon myself to do 2 that. 3 Q: That wasn't something that you, 4 personally, did? 5 A: No. 6 Q: But you knew of other Stoney Pointers 7 that did that? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yeah? Okay. And there's another 10 incident that is for June 10 of 1995 in the evening when 11 a car entered the built-up area into the parade square 12 and fired rocks, at the Military Police that were there, 13 with a slingshot. 14 Was that something that you were there for 15 or heard about? 16 A: I have no knowledge of that one. 17 Q: Okay. And another incident was on 18 June the 11th of 1995, which is when a car with male 19 natives in it entered the built-up area. 20 And I think you've told us that you know 21 of situations back to 1993 where the Stoney Point group 22 would enter the built-up area in their cars and other 23 vehicles. 24 A: I, myself, I know that a lot of the 25 people used to go up right up into the buildings. I
1141 don't know why this is being brought out now, like to me, 2 they're still doing the same thing, you know? 3 They still walk into the buildings and 4 that's what they do, I guess. I -- I -- 5 Q: And did you know or did you hear of 6 that period during that time, '93 to 1995 that when 7 people walked into the built-up area and entered the 8 buildings, that from time to time there was vandalism and 9 theft? 10 A: No, I don't know that. Like, I know 11 there was a lot of things that happened, burnt buildings, 12 like some of those old sheds there. 13 Like, when you -- when you brought up that 14 part about the towers, I remember there used to be three 15 (3) towers and now there's none. Just like there used to 16 be one (1), two (2), three (3) -- three (3) other sheds 17 there and now there's only two (2). 18 And the one (1) is -- the one (1) that we 19 had built in '93 that was on a piece of cement that was 20 left from the burnt building, eh? Which that building, I 21 think, was burnt probably ten (10) years prior to us 22 moving in there. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: So that's -- it's only like, a tin 25 shed that's out there now. "Mike Harris and Tom
1151 Bressette are lovers" on it and there's -- there's a shed 2 that we had made for a meeting place on there, that's -- 3 that's still our meeting place that we still host 4 ceremonies in there and -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- we still have, you know, our day 7 to day functions that we have to do. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. And there's an incident 9 that's described in this document on June the 12th of 10 1995 which is when a vehicle entered the training area, 11 one (1) of the patrol vehicles entered into the training 12 area and came into view, it says: 13 "...of you and two (2) other male 14 natives, one (1) of which started to 15 throw stones at the vehicle." 16 And do you recall being in that area with 17 others and stones being thrown at vehicles or at a 18 vehicle? 19 A: I don't recall, no. I wasn't one for 20 throwing fish or eggs or stones. 21 Q: And what the incident goes -- report 22 goes on to say is that the two (2) Military personnel 23 then got out of their vehicle and tried to talk to you 24 and the other people that were with you. They tried to 25 tell you that they were just on patrol and that they
1161 didn't mean to bother you in any way. 2 Do you recall that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And the incident report goes on to 5 say that you, then, made comments to the Military 6 personnel telling them that there was no need for them to 7 be in the area and that soon they would be removed from 8 the area. 9 Now do you recall in the spring and summer 10 of 1995 having the view that the Military Police ought 11 not to be doing patrols around the Base? 12 A: Can you say that again? Like -- 13 Q: Did you have the view in the spring 14 and summer of 1995 that the Military should not be doing 15 patrols around the Base? 16 A: I think my view on that was when I 17 moved in there in '93 that they should be done with their 18 patrols. 19 Q: That -- I'm sorry, I didn't hear what 20 you said. 21 A: Since May 6th of 1993, I think that 22 they should have been done with their patrols. 23 Q: They should have been done with...? 24 A: Their patrols. Like what you just 25 asked.
1171 Q: Okay. I -- I'm not doing very well 2 here. Was your view that they shouldn't be patrolling or 3 that someone else should be patrolling? 4 A: I'm -- I'm jotting down the '95 -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- incidents here -- 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: -- and I just explained to you that 9 my view on them patrolling was -- should cease to exist-- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- as of May 6 of '93. 12 Q: Okay. So they shouldn't have been 13 there at all? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: As soon as you got onto -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- the area, they should have left. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And they shouldn't be there at all? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And I take it, then, that 22 their continuing to be there through 1993 and 1994 and 23 1995 was getting more and more irritating? 24 A: I, myself, when I -- when I was given 25 this information from the Commission Counsel that I seen
1181 that -- that ever since my getting to the -- to the Camp 2 that day started writing their stats on me, well, then to 3 me that would be -- my only obvious view is that would be 4 the end of them being here if that's they're going to do 5 is write stats on me. 6 Like, I don't think that them -- them 7 being there was basically protecting anybody's interest 8 other than their own job, you know. Other than that, 9 like, to me, you're -- you're -- you're basically looking 10 at somebody that, you know, I told you my story about my 11 parents being uprooted from there and here I am today ask 12 -- answering questions about the Military patrolling the 13 place, that was to have been closed. I don't know what 14 their purpose there was, really. 15 Q: Okay. And I'm also going to suggest 16 to you that in the spring and number -- and summer of 17 1995, that what you and others did, was you started doing 18 more of your own patrols, and in particular, patrolling 19 the Military beach area? 20 A: That was going on from '93, ever 21 since we moved there. 22 Q: Okay. Okay. I'm just going to 23 suggest to you that more and more, you and others in the 24 Stoney Point group wanted to make sure that people didn't 25 come onto your land?
1191 A: Again, it was that -- that part that 2 we were dealing with. You know, there was -- there was 3 ones that wanted to bring burnt cars there and burn them. 4 There was that kind of stuff that we had to try and make 5 sure that, you know, they're -- they're not going to 6 trash the place, they're not going to, you know, steal 7 things. 8 They're not going to, you know, create a 9 thing that, you know, that I see, like, my -- my cousin 10 Dudley, had -- had paid this ultimate price that -- that 11 all of these things -- all of the above could have been 12 avoided if there was, you know, action on whoever hired 13 these people, whoever is the ones making these decisions. 14 I think it's been a -- a political 15 statement on behalf of those Stoney Point people, that 16 ever since May 6th of '93 that, you know, their 17 intentions were to be peaceful and -- and I don't know if 18 things got frustrating to some of them. Some of them 19 possibly did, like I can't really speak for them. 20 I -- you know, they basically speak on my 21 own behalf and it's a -- it's a thing that -- it's a -- 22 it's a real strong feeling that, you know, the -- the 23 people are basically home now, that they -- they've 24 accepted that responsibility and -- and, you know, it's a 25 -- it's a thing that they've -- being off their land for
1201 close to sixty (60) years, that they -- that they're 2 getting comfortable with that part of being home and I -- 3 I don't know. Like, I don't -- I don't hear of them, you 4 know, like, talking about, like, the -- the way things 5 went, it was -- it was something that had happened. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I know that they -- they wish that, 8 you know, their -- their cousin would still be here 9 today. I think that their -- their efforts were kind of 10 like, there was a lot of young people that, you know, 11 that -- in my own family who I can only speak on behalf 12 of that, nephews, that, you know, that had been put in 13 jail even though he was never really given his -- his 14 total disclosure. 15 You know, there's -- there's things like 16 that, that -- that kind of make people wonder as to what 17 is really happening on -- on that part where we don't 18 seem to get that -- that part of justice, you know and -- 19 I don't know. 20 Q: Okay. I want to go back to the 21 summer of 1995, because I anticipate we're going to hear 22 evidence that on numerous occasions both people from the 23 Park and cottagers and other people who were on the 24 Military beach, were told by Natives and they seem to be 25 of the view it was probably the Stoney Point group, that
1211 they ought to get off that beach. 2 And were you -- you've told us earlier 3 that you yourself were one of the people that was 4 patrolling the Military beach, in the summer. Did you or 5 did you see others telling people to get off the beach? 6 A: I took pictures of it, yeah. 7 Q: Yeah. And I anticipate that we're 8 going to hear evidence that on some of those occasions, 9 cars were driven up the and at people on the beach in 10 order to make them get off. 11 Was that something that you saw? 12 A: I -- yes, I saw that. I -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- I have pictures of that. 15 Q: Okay. And you keep on referring, Mr. 16 George, to material you have -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- and one of the things that's a 19 little frustrating is I don't know what you're talking 20 about. Do you have material here that we can see? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I have a picture here of -- of Dudley 25 standing there doing this. What are these people doing
1221 on the beach? And you can see in this picture the 2 barricade that the Provincial Park and these people that 3 are from out of the Park and I also have other pictures 4 where they're laying right on the road in between the 5 barricades that are on the beach right next -- adjacent 6 to the Provincial Park. 7 Q: And is that a picture that you 8 yourself took, Mr. George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. So you've described -- and one 11 of the things that happened yesterday when you had 12 pictures that no one had seen before, was first of all 13 Mr. Worme asked you to describe what was in them, and 14 then he asked if you would give them to the Commission so 15 they could make copies. 16 Because one of the things that's very hard 17 in one of these proceedings is if you have something that 18 nobody else has seen. So I'm going to ask you today if 19 you would do the same thing? Is if you can walk us 20 through the pictures that you have and then if the 21 Commission can have a chance to review them and copy them 22 for you? 23 A: Sure, right there. 24 Q: So that other people can see them? 25 Okay so you've --
1231 A: They're right here. 2 Q: -- got a picture of Dudley on the 3 beach. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Now was Dudley one of the people that 6 would go on the beach and get people off it? 7 A: Oh, it wasn't like that the way 8 you're wording it. It was one of those things that -- in 9 1993 the -- when the people had moved in there, it was -- 10 it was an understanding that the -- the lands were under 11 dispute and that we never put those borders up. 12 Those weren't our fences that were there. 13 And to me -- I -- I don't know how to answer that type of 14 question. Like I know that I have pictures of these 15 people laying in the road. Like -- 16 Q: My question to you was, do you know 17 or did you see Dudley George taking steps to remove 18 people from the Military beach? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Everybody did, not just Dudley. 22 Q: Okay. Okay. Okay. So you've got us 23 -- you've shown us one picture of Dudley. Can you tell 24 us what your other pictures are? 25 A: That's of a peace tree being planted
1241 there -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- and we took part in the -- my 4 other -- my other pictures are at home of that -- of the 5 people on the beach. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Like I got one here like I thought I 8 had them all. Like, I got more at home. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. What I'll -- 10 maybe I'll do then, Mr. Commissioner, if you're in 11 agreement is we could give that picture an exhibit number 12 now and then if Mr. George is kind enough to give the 13 picture to the Commission, we can get copies made. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-141, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-141: Photograph of Dudley George 19 at Stoney Point Beach 1993 20 Taken by Glenn George 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN 141. We'll 23 give it back to you. I know you were concerned 24 yesterday, you wanted to make sure you get your pictures 25 back, we'll make sure you do.
1251 2 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 3 Q: I anticipate, Mr. George, that we're 4 going to hear evidence, that by June 26th of 1995, that 5 the Military was concerned about the number of times that 6 the Stoney Point group had gone into the built up area 7 and about a number of the incidents, some of which had 8 force or violence involved. 9 And that as a result of that, the Military 10 decided to put up a barricade between the Stoney Point 11 group and the built up area, in an attempt to either stop 12 or slow down that traffic. 13 And you've told us, yesterday, a little 14 bit about your understanding of that barricade going up; 15 remember that? 16 A: Well there's -- there's things that I 17 can remember and things that I can't because I -- there's 18 -- there's things within there that I -- I'm still trying 19 to find my exact records on the -- the -- the warrants 20 for my arrest. 21 Because I remember around that -- that 22 time it would be like a month before, so that would be 23 like, I think July of '95, July 29th was the day we moved 24 into the Camp, I mean the barracks. And it would be like 25 a month before that, that I -- I remember -- I think -- I
1261 think I might have been charged and -- 2 Q: I'm going -- 3 A: -- told to stay away -- 4 Q: I'm going -- I'm going help you with 5 that stuff, because you've told us before that you're 6 having difficulty placing the warrants -- 7 A: Well -- 8 Q: -- different warrants -- 9 A: -- you're asking me of that -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- in that same time frame that's 12 all -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- I need to understand is the time 15 frame that -- 16 Q: The time frame I'm talking about is 17 June of 1995 and I'm talking about before you had the 18 incident where you pulled down the barricade and then you 19 had the altercation with the Military police officer. 20 I'm talking just before then, because -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- I anticipate we'll -- that we'll 23 hear evidence that the tractor incident, the one where 24 you were pulling down the barricade, happened on June 25 27th.
1271 A: Okay. 2 Q: And I anticipate we're going to hear 3 evidence that the barricade was put up on June 26th, 4 okay? 5 A: See, because would -- would -- what 6 confuses me is that I -- I think that during that time 7 and I don't know for sure, that I might have been under 8 that -- that thing where I might have had a warrant for 9 my arrest and -- and I just don't -- 10 Q: Well I -- I don't know what all 11 warrants you had for your arrest -- 12 A: Well, that's -- 13 Q: -- but the warrant -- 14 A: -- what I'm just trying to tell you. 15 Q: -- for your arrest dealing with the 16 barricade incident and the incident at the gate of the 17 Army Camp. I have all of that information in the 18 documents -- 19 A: Hmm, hmm. 20 Q: -- and I'll show you, because I'll 21 help you out a little bit with that, okay? But I'm going 22 to suggest to you that the purpose of the barricade that 23 was put up, was to keep the Stoney Point group out of the 24 built up area or to at least try and stop the traffic, 25 make it more difficult for you to get into that area.
1281 A: They didn't seem to stop them from 2 going -- 3 Q: No, they sure -- 4 A: -- in there -- 5 Q: They sure didn't seem to -- 6 A: But I -- 7 Q: -- stop you. 8 A: But I -- I can only respond to that 9 part of, yeah, it was me with the tractor and yeah, I 10 yanked these -- these -- 11 Q: Yeah -- 12 A: -- things off the road. 13 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 14 George, that that barricade had high visibility signs 15 around it and it was illuminated with white light at 16 night, so -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- that it was clearly visible. 19 A: No. 20 Q: And you've told us a little bit, Mr. 21 George, about the incident with the tractor and just to 22 help you out with timing, I'm going to -- there's going 23 to be no dispute about this, I don't think. 24 The incident with the tractor happened on 25 June 27th, 1995. But I want to just go back one step.
1291 You talked about having documents at your home. You've 2 talked about having notes, having pictures, having other 3 information. 4 Did -- were you ever asked by the 5 Commission or by your Counsel to provide documents you 6 had that were relevant to this Inquiry when you were -- 7 so that we would -- we would know the documents you're 8 referring to? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross has 10 an observation to make. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 12 think My Learned Friend is treading on a little bit of 13 wrong ground when she's going to ask this witness about 14 discussions with his Counsel. 15 My view is that's a proper question maybe 16 to direct to me or Commission Counsel; but not to this 17 witness, thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 19 sure. Can she ask about what the conversation -- 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I don't 21 -- I don't have any problem with her -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- as 23 Commission -- 24 MR. DONALD WORME: -- asking this 25 witness. There is no privilege insofar as the questions
1301 that I have put to this witness -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 3 I thought. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: -- whether it was in 5 preparation or indeed on record. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 7 you could confine your question to Commission Counsel. 8 MS. KAREN JONES Well Mr. -- Mr. 9 Commissioner, one -- one thing that is of concern of 10 course is this is now -- we've now had more than one 11 witness whose come in the stand and said that they have 12 documents or no -- that -- that they have documents that 13 are relevant to their evidence and we don't have them. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps I can say 15 this, in the hopes that it may satisfy My Friend and not 16 only her concerns but I'm sure other Counsel would have 17 similar concern if this sort of thing were -- were to 18 continue, as I suspect it may. And that is certainly a 19 reasonable inquiry. 20 I can tell you that when we are advised in 21 preparing a witness that they have documents, 22 photographs, diagrams, whatever it may be, Mr. 23 Commissioner, that we have asked, through their Counsel, 24 that they be supplied to us that we examine those 25 documents or whatever items it might be to determine
1311 their relevance and we make a judgement call as to 2 whether or not they will be produced. 3 In some instances they have been and in 4 some instances they have not. And indeed and there have 5 been instances where they have not been produced to us or 6 advised to us as indeed yesterday when Mr. George 7 helpfully provided the photographs that were since 8 distributed, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, it's 11 almost twelve o'clock and I'm going to go into a bit of a 12 chunk of a segment. I'm wondering if now would be a good 13 time for lunch break or if you would like me to carry on? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How much 15 longer do you think you might be? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: I think I'm going to be 17 at least two (2) hours more. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 19 be a good time to have a lunch break. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 22 adjourned until 1:15 p.m. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 1:20 p.m.
1321 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed, please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 10 A: Good afternoon. 11 Q: Mr. George, just before -- actually, 12 Mr. Commissioner, can I just take care of a couple of 13 housekeeping things before we start? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I had referred Mr. 16 George to three (3) newspaper articles and I wonder if we 17 might make them exhibits in this proceeding? The first 18 was the London Free Press article dated June 14th, 1993 19 and that was 2002693. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-142. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 142. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-142: Document 2002693, June 14/93 24 London Free Press Article 25 "Maynard T. George Is Acclaimed
1331 Chief" 2 3 MS. KAREN JONES: The second document was 4 the article from the Sarnia Observer, dated May 18th, 5 1994 and that is Commission Document 1003680. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-143. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 143. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-143: Document 1003680 May 18/94 10 Sarnia Observer Article 11 "George Heads Stoney Point" 12 13 MS. KAREN JONES: And the third document 14 was a London Free Press article, dated April 18th, 1995 15 and that is Commission Document 2001976. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-144. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 144. Thank 18 you very much, Ms. Jones. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-144: Commission Document 2001976, an 21 article from the London Free Press 22 dated April 18th, 1995. 23 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Just as, perhaps, one 25 (1) further matter, Mr. Commissioner, the Witness had,
1341 during the course of his answering questions for Ms. 2 Jones, had made a mark, I think it was on Exhibit 140 and 3 I just wanted to see that that is properly recorded by 4 the Registrar. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have we got 6 that? 7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. It's number 4 8 on P-140. Is that correct, Mr. George? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 10 right? 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: Sorry, Mr. George, I didn't mean to 17 interrupt you. Before we left on the lunch break, I had 18 asked you a couple of questions about -- and we were on 19 June 26th of 1995, which was when the barricade got put 20 up between the Stoney Point group in the built-up area 21 and then I want to ask you some questions about June the 22 27th, which was the day of the incident where you were on 23 the tractor and were taking down the barricade. Okay? 24 And I understand, Mr. George, that when 25 you were taking down the barricade, you were accompanied
1351 by two (2) others in a brown station wagon? 2 Do you agree with that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Do you agree with me that that brown 5 station wagon was one that was driven by Russ Jewel? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And do you agree that one (1) 8 of the questions that you put to the Military Police when 9 they showed up while you were taking down the barrier 10 with your tractor was, what was the idea of putting 11 things on the road? And that you stated a concern that 12 if people were injured you would hold the Military Police 13 accountable. Do you recall that? 14 A: It was something like that, yes. 15 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 16 you were told in return, that the barriers were a 17 precaution to prevent personal injury to the Military, 18 and particularly in the built-up area; do you remember 19 that? 20 A: I -- I don't recall that part. 21 Q: Okay. And do you agree that you told 22 -- that you then said that the Military personnel 23 shouldn't be on any part of the Base and that they should 24 get off the land? 25 A: Along the lines, I don't recall
1361 saying that. 2 Q: Okay. Do you recall telling the 3 Military personnel that they shouldn't be there in the 4 first place? 5 A: I think that's what I told them. 6 Q: Something like that? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 9 at or about that time there were some Military police in 10 and around you, in the area? 11 A: I only seen the ones that were in 12 that truck. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: That's all -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- there was just me and those guys 17 in the truck, that's it. 18 Q: Okay. And do you recall telling them 19 that: 20 "You tell the cop and the bitch to back 21 off or I'll get my gun and shoot you 22 all." 23 A: That wasn't -- there wasn't no female 24 there. 25 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that
1371 you said that: 2 "You and everyone else and all this 3 shit and get the fuck out of here?" 4 Or words to that affect? 5 A: I might have said that, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And I understand you then 7 backed up your tractor and you then drove it into the 8 Military vehicle. 9 A: That didn't happen like that. 10 Q: Okay, what happened? 11 A: I drove up to the vehicle. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That was it, I didn't back up, I 14 drove right up to it. 15 Q: You drove into it? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 18 you that on the early morning of June 28th, that an 19 incident occurred, again involving that brown station 20 wagon, which I anticipate we'll hear evidence was in the 21 care of Russ Jewel, attempted to drive off a Military 22 vehicle off the road at a high rate of speed. 23 Did you know about that incident? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And later -- and again on that day
1381 then, June 28th of 1995, there was a perimeter patrol 2 being done by the Military police and at the corner of 3 Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road, a vehicle that you 4 were in and Stewart George were in chased that Military 5 vehicle; do you recall that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And you told us a little bit 8 yesterday about the incident involving the slashed tires 9 on Marlin's -- Marlin George's ATV; do you recall that? 10 A: I remember everybody's bicycles and 11 trailers and cars being slashed, I don't recall just 12 Marlin. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall that it was 14 Marlin that came and got you to get some assistance? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall that Marlin told 17 you that his ATV's wheels had been slashed? 18 A: I'm pretty sure he mentioned 19 everybody's tires were getting slashed. 20 Q: Okay. And I understand that you then 21 got Stewart George? 22 A: Yep. 23 Q: And you and Stewart came down to the 24 Base area? 25 A: Yes.
1391 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 2 found a drunken Military police officer walking in and 3 around the area of Matheson Road? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 6 told him to take his jacket off or his uniform off? 7 A: That -- yeah, I remember telling him 8 but there was other things too that were told. 9 Q: What other things did you tell him? 10 A: I asked him what he was doing. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And that's when he replied and he was 13 -- he was sobbing at that time that he said he was from 14 Rama. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And that he -- he didn't want to be 17 here. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: And that's when I asked him, you're 20 from Rama? Because to me that part about being from 21 another First Nation and being along Matheson Drive where 22 the MP shirt was kind like the term the Military use, 23 it's out of bounds. 24 Like, he was out of bounds, type of thing, 25 and what are you doing over here?
1401 Q: Right. 2 A: And I remember at that time, that's 3 when he -- he mentioned being from Rama that I asked him 4 if he was here to help us and he said yes. And I -- I 5 responded that it was the wrong answer. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: That if you were here to help us out, 8 that you shouldn't be wearing that kind of a uniform. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: I didn't -- other than that, he took 11 it off, eh? 12 Q: Right. 13 A: And that's when he took it off, 14 that's when I grabbed it. 15 Q: Right. And I'm going to suggest that 16 you then hit him with the coat. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Yeah? And we heard some evidence 19 from Stuart George, on November 2nd, 2004, that after you 20 hit him with the coat, you gave him, "a little bit more 21 shit," after that. 22 A: What -- what's the date on that? 23 Q: November 2, 2004. 24 A: November? 25 Q: 2 -- this is when -- sorry, this is
1411 when Stuart George gave evidence at this Inquiry, okay? 2 He's someone who has testified already and he described 3 this incident for the Commission -- 4 A: So this is Jan -- June 28th -- 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: '95? 7 Q: Yeah. And he says that after you 8 grabbed the coat and slapped Mr. Simcoe with it, that you 9 gave him, "a little more shit". Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And what did you do when you 12 were giving him a little more shit? 13 A: I basically told him that he should 14 be in Rama looking after the things in Rama and not to -- 15 not to be getting caught outside the Camp wearing a 16 uniform like that and -- and that this place was under 17 dispute and, to me, it just -- it was a -- kind of like a 18 little speech of knowing that the people in Rama pro -- 19 possibly need, you know, that type of help over there and 20 that he should go over there and help them out. 21 Q: Okay. And then, at least according 22 to Stuart, you and Stuart left Mr. Simcoe and you went 23 down to the beach. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. So you left Mr. Simcoe alone
1421 then? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so you were done with him; is 4 that right? 5 A: Well he took off -- 6 Q: You had said your piece to him? 7 A: He took off running and we went the 8 other way. He went that way, and we went down to the 9 beach. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And so how was it then, I mean I 13 anticipate that we'll hear evidence that Mr. Simcoe then 14 got in a Military vehicle and was driving down towards 15 the gate for the Army Camp. 16 A: It's possible. 17 Q: Okay. And I anticipate that we'll 18 hear some evidence that you and Stuart followed that 19 Military vehicle. 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Well according to Mr. Stuart George, 24 on his evidence on November 2nd, what he said was that 25 after you and he went down to the beach, when you got
1431 back to Matheson Drive, you noticed some tail lights 2 going off Matheson Drive, turning up the road, and you 3 followed them. 4 A: I -- I don't recall that. I remember 5 going up to the -- to the gatehouse, that's -- I don't 6 remember chasing any vehicle. 7 I just went from down the beach back up, 8 made sure the kids were all right and I went -- went up 9 to the gatehouse and that's where I seen that -- that 10 truck that -- I think it was George Ganche (phonetic) and 11 -- and Howard Simcoe and it might be Hennessey 12 (phonetic), I think his last name was. 13 There was three (3) of them. 14 Q: Yeah? 15 A: That were there. 16 Q: Okay. And then as I understand, you 17 went into the Camp; is that right? 18 A: Hmm, hmm. Yes. 19 Q: And at that point in time, the gate 20 was closed? 21 A: Yeah, they were -- 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: -- one (1) -- one (1) had a fence and 24 the other one had a -- had a gate. 25 Q: Okay. And I -- then -- I'm going to
1441 put to you, Mr. George, that you then on your way in, 2 pushed the commissionaire. 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Mr. George, I anticipate that 5 we'll hear evidence that on -- during the day of June 6 28th, that Charlie Bowman met with you and a number of 7 others and I anticipate that we will hear evidence you 8 told him that you did push the Commissionaire. 9 A: I don't recall pushing anybody. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I didn't even push Howard Simcoe. 12 Q: Okay. And do you also recall that 13 during -- sorry, let me just go back a little bit. But 14 you were charged with pushing Mr. Simcoe and you were 15 convicted of that; isn't that right? 16 A: I don't think so, no. 17 Q: You were -- there were two (2) 18 assault charges levied against you; isn't that right? 19 A: Yeah, I think I got two (2) assault 20 charges. 21 Q: Yeah. Let me help you out here a 22 little bit because you were having problems with this 23 before. 24 A: I think the barricades is where I got 25 those charges from, I'm pretty sure. Because the
1451 mischief charge was when I drove the tractor into that 2 truck. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: I don't -- I don't recall what -- if 5 -- what if there was any charges. I -- I can't remember, 6 I know that when I went to that gate and -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- that -- that old guy was -- was 9 standing by the gate, I went, "Blah" like that and that's 10 when he -- he fell over. 11 Q: Let -- let me help you out here, Mr. 12 George. We have, from the Commission a document, and for 13 the assistance of Counsel, it is 700257 and maybe we 14 could get a copy of that up on the screen so you have a 15 chance to look at it and we can verify what the charges 16 were that were made against you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And you'll see, Mr. George, that that 21 -- that this is a document -- on the left-hand side it 22 says, "Canada, Province of Ontario." It's the 23 information of G.M. Speck relating to you, Glenn Maurice 24 George and it says: 25 "On or about the 28th day of June, 1995
1461 --" 2 And I'm going on: 3 "So, first of all, did assault Donald 4 Stevens, contrary to Section 266 of the 5 Criminal Code of Canada." 6 You'll agree with me that you were charged 7 for assaulting Mr. Stevens? 8 A: Do you want to take a minute and read 9 that? I know you've had some questions about the 10 charges. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: So, can I -- can I see these other 15 charges that -- that come from the barricade also? 16 Q: This -- this document that I have has 17 -- has, so far as I know, all of the charges that were 18 laid by Mr. Speck and as you'll see, there's four (4) of 19 them. One (1) was assault on Donald Stevens, one (1) is 20 assault on Arthur Ganche, one (1) is a mischief charge 21 for damaging property and one (1) is a threat to cause 22 death to Allan House. 23 And I'm going to suggest to you that the 24 first two (2) charges arose out of the incident at the 25 Army gate and the second two (2) --
1471 A: See the one (1) says the 27th and the 2 other one says the 28th, and you've got the 28th day 3 listed there and then it goes to the 27th -- 4 Q: I'm going to -- 5 A: -- and then it goes down here to the 6 twenty-seventh. See the -- this is where -- 7 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, if you 8 take a minute, that on -- that the charges related to the 9 twenty-eighth, that is the assault on Donald Stevenson 10 and the assault on Arthur Ganche relate to your conduct 11 at the gate of the Army Camp. 12 I'm going to suggest to you that Charges 3 13 and 4 that is the mischief charge and the uttering death 14 threats charge, which are dated June 27th, relate to the 15 incident with the tractor. 16 I'm going to suggest that those charges 17 came out of the two (2) incidents that we've been talking 18 about. 19 And that's all you were charged with at 20 that time. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: See that's what -- that's what kind 25 of puzzles me is that I knowingly assaulted Howard
1481 Simcoe, but I never -- I never done nothing to Mr. George 2 Ganche or I never -- I never done nothing to Mr. Donald 3 Stephens. See, these are -- 4 Q: Well, you were -- 5 A: -- these are the things that I -- I 6 explained yesterday that -- that whatever it is that they 7 wrote, I can't control that or change that, that -- I 8 just expressed that part that -- 9 Q: And -- and you told us yesterday, Mr. 10 George, that you went to a trial about these charges and 11 you were convicted of all four (4) charges. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. And I'm then going to show you 14 another document, because it may assist you with some 15 timing issues, and for the assistance of Counsel it is 16 Document 7000301. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And this is a little bit hard to 21 read, Mr. George, but if you look at it, you'll see that 22 it is your recognizance after your bail hearing that was 23 held on July the 6th, 1995. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1491 Q: And you'll see again the four (4) 2 charges are listed on that document. And you'll also see 3 close to the bottom of the page the conditions on which 4 you were released. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you'll see that one (1) of the 9 conditions is not to communicate at all with Donald 10 Stephens or Arthur Ganche. And you'll see that one is to 11 remain away from the main gate and the built-up area of 12 the Base, and one is not to use or possess firearms or 13 ammunition; do you recall that? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. So does that assist you with 18 timing, then, about the charges when -- when the charges 19 were laid and when you had your bail hearing? 20 Do you want to write those down so you're 21 a little clearer? 22 A: So the -- the bail hearing would be 23 on the -- the -- July 26th -- 24 Q: July 6th -- 25 A: July 6th?
1501 Q: July 6th, 1995. 2 A: '96 -- yeah. 3 Q: Yeah? And I anticipate, because 4 unfortunately the documents we have, the information has 5 one (1) side, but I anticipate that we'll hear that the 6 warrant for your arrest was issued on June the 30th, 7 okay? 8 A: Where is the June 30th date? 9 Q: I'm just saying I anticipate we will 10 hear evidence that the warrant was issued on June the 11 30th, 1995, okay? 12 A: June the 30th, okay. 13 Q: Okay. So now you know the dates, now 14 you know the charges, and there's no dispute about your 15 bail conditions, okay? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Okay. And I want to now move back to 20 during the course of the day, on June the 28th, okay? 21 And I anticipate as I said earlier that we'll hear some 22 evidence that Charlie Bowman came to the Base and spoke 23 with you and others; do you recall that? 24 A: Whose the others? 25 Q: Do you recall seeing Charlie Bowman
1511 at the Base -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- on June 28th? 4 A: No, no. 5 Q: Okay. And I'm going to tell you that 6 I anticipate Mr. Bowman will not -- will testify that he 7 spoke to you and one (1) of the things that you and he 8 talked about was the fact that the tires on Warren 9 George's car had been punctured; do you recall that? 10 A: Oh gees. I wish -- I wish Waldo was 11 here he'd -- he'd answer you, but no, I don't recall 12 that, no. 13 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 14 you that the only two (2) vehicles that you or anyone 15 else complained about, in terms of having the tires 16 tampered with, was Marlin George's ATV and Warren 17 George's -- pardon me -- Marlin Simon -- I'm sorry and 18 Warren -- and the tires on Warren George's car. 19 Do you agree with that -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- or do you disagree with that? No? 22 A: No. 23 Q: What other vehicles did you know? 24 A: Gees, I don't know. There was so 25 many of these res bombs (phonetic) around that -- that --
1521 I remember, oh gees, I know the tractor tires were -- 2 were slashed just from going through the field. Other 3 than that I don't -- I don't recall any -- 4 Q: Sure. That was it, that you recall? 5 A: See if I -- when Marlin came and seen 6 me I can't remember that date off hand, but I -- I 7 remember he told me, he said that it would have to be on 8 the 28th when Howard Simcoe was found wandering around. 9 That's the same night that these tires were being 10 punctured and slashed and all the above. 11 I don't -- I don't -- I don't recall going 12 around taking inventory on what -- what was flattened. 13 Q: Sure. 14 A: I just know that I had to go and fix 15 -- like fix a lot of tires with plugs. 16 Q: And I anticipate, Mr. George, we're 17 going to hear that on June the 29th of 1995, the gas hut 18 at the Base was burnt and according to the notes it was 19 fire bombed. Did you know about that incident? 20 A: Trying to be a law abiding citizen 21 myself, I understood that I was suppose to be away from 22 this area and I don't know nothing about that and to me I 23 -- I'm still trying to visualize these control towers 24 that were burnt and stuff like that, that I don't -- I 25 don't remember too clearly.
1531 Like I remember as a kid you used to see 2 three (3) of those towers and I used to see these other 3 buildings that there no longer there. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 8 George, that one (1) of the things that was going on 9 during June and July of 1995, was that you and others of 10 the Stoney Point group were making efforts to conduct 11 surveillance on the built-up area. 12 A: I would have to take that back 13 further to May 6th of '93. 14 Q: Okay. I'm going to suggest to you 15 that, starting in June and going through to July, you and 16 other members of the Stoney Point group were taking extra 17 steps to maintain surveillance on the built-up area. 18 A: I have to disagree there. 19 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 20 you knew in June and July of 1995 that the Army was 21 removing things from the Base and was cutting back on the 22 manpower that was kept at the Base? 23 A: I don't know too much about the 24 Army's operations, I -- 25 Q: Sure. But from your observations,
1541 Mr. George, would you agree with me that there were fewer 2 people in the built-up area? 3 A: I never went around doing any head 4 counts, no I don't, no. 5 Q: Okay. And do you agree with me that 6 more and more of the buildings were being closed down? 7 A: It's possible. There's a lot of 8 things that were going on. 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: Maybe, yeah. 11 Q: And I understand we'll hear evidence, 12 Mr. George, that as of July of 1995, that the Military 13 was no longer conducting patrols in the range area. Do 14 you agree with that? 15 A: I can't recall that. I -- my -- 16 myself used to do perimeters and I kind of -- I kind of 17 thought that around July was -- was a lot of things going 18 on that I remember the -- the date of July 29th real 19 clear in my head. 20 That was the day that those people moved 21 into the -- the -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- built-up area. 24 Q: I anticipate that this Commission 25 will hear evidence that you and another person met with
1551 Inspector Dale Linton on July 12th, 1995. 2 Do you recall that? 3 A: July 12th? 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: Not offhand, no. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm going to -- I 7 anticipate that there will be evidence that the 8 discussion concerned things such as the ramming of 9 Military vehicles and an attempt to run over tourists on 10 the beach. Do you recall that? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And according to Inspector Linton, 13 you told him that your people, that is the Stoney Point 14 group, wanted control of their land. Do you recall that? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: No. 18 Q: And also that the laws that Inspector 19 Linton worked under don't apply to you or to the Stoney 20 Point group. 21 A: I don't recall the meeting with Mr. 22 Linton, no, I don't. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: No. 25 Q: Do you agree with me, Mr. George,
1561 that you had a view at the time and you still do, that 2 the laws that were being applied by the OPP shouldn't 3 apply to you when you're on the Stoney Point land? 4 A: Can you rephrase that again? 5 Q: I said, do you agree with me that 6 then, in July of 1995, and even after that period of 7 time, you had the view that the laws as were being 8 applied by the OPP shouldn't apply to you when you were 9 on your land? When you were on your private property. 10 A: I think I might have made those types 11 of statements when I was in that court hearing on June 12 30th, because I repeated what I had told those Military 13 personnel that there was things that in my statements to 14 them, I was claiming to them that they were on my land. 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: And -- 17 Q: And you had the right to control what 18 went on, on your land, not them. 19 A: Well, can I finish? 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: What I was expressing to them is that 22 I basically -- I'm not trying to put anything on any of 23 those other people that were in there. I just basically 24 was looking after my own actions here, that I was -- you 25 know, this is basically my inheritance, this land here,
1571 and that I was trying to express to them that that's why 2 I am here in person. 3 That -- I don't know, I -- it's not a 4 personal thing. But they were there in person, too, 5 whether they have ties to the land also. I tried to 6 express that view to them but it -- it's like -- I'm 7 still trying to get that view across today. 8 As for the part of the question, it's -- 9 it's I don't know. Like sometimes I got to hear it over 10 and over again. Like, it's -- it's hard sometime. Like 11 I remember being told to stay away from that built-up 12 area and I remember like I say, that date of -- on July 13 29th is -- it's etched right here that I -- I remember 14 those people moved in there. 15 And all -- when all that stuff was going 16 on I was -- I was still at the beach. Like, I don't 17 know, I think this is on or about the time, I think, I -- 18 I met with that Captain Smith who was there around that 19 same time. And I -- I have a hard time, like, I -- I 20 think I was -- I had to visit. There was visitors that 21 came and got me down the beach to -- to give me -- they 22 come to this. 23 There was -- I think they had a meeting 24 with the Elders were in that one (1) garage building. I 25 think it was called the Camp headquarters.
1581 Q: Is that on the day -- 2 A: That's on the -- 3 Q: -- of July 29th? 4 A: -- yeah. 5 Q: Okay. I want to go back earlier. 6 I'm asking you about an earlier period of time. I'll 7 come to that -- I'll come to the entering the built-up 8 area very soon. But I want to go back a little bit. 9 I want to -- my question to you was, in 10 July of 1995, first of all whether you had a view that 11 the laws as the OPP were enforcing them ought not to 12 apply to you and to the people at -- on the Base? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross is 14 on his feet. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS Yes, Commissioner, that 16 very question was asked. The response was that he made 17 those statements in court. By asking the same question 18 again, I don't know if it's gets any further. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 20 that he answered the question as it was asked. He may 21 have. Let's be alive to that, Mr. Ross. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And see what 24 happens. I'm not sure that the answer was completely 25 responsive to the question. Can you ask it again --
1591 MS. KAREN JONES: I wasn't -- I wasn't 2 sure either and that's why I was just trying -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to go back and 5 clarify that, Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 7 The question was very specific so see if you can answer 8 it. The question was -- well, do you want to repeat it? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, let -- let me -- 10 let me try it one (1) more time in a little bit of a 11 different way and just see if this makes it a little bit 12 easier. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Let me put this in three (3) parts. 16 Maybe that'll help a little bit. First of all, in July 17 of 1995 and I take it after that, you would have had the 18 view that the Stoney Point group wanted to have control 19 over their land? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Yeah. And also that the laws that 22 were being enforced by the OPP shouldn't apply to them as 23 First Nations people? 24 A: Is that directed at me as the First 25 Nation people or the people as a whole. Like they --
1601 Q: Directed to you as a First Nations 2 person. 3 A: Because I -- I think I -- I answered 4 that part about myself going into the courtroom, eh? 5 Like I -- 6 Q: And so you said you agreed with that. 7 A: -- I plead guilty to these -- to 8 these charges and you want me to say I'm guilty and 9 guilty and guilty four (4) times to those four (4) 10 charges? Because I myself told the court that I felt 11 that these lands were my lands that I was on. And that 12 these charges that being on my land as -- as a landlord 13 of these lands that I -- I'm trying to find out who can 14 prove to me that they are not my land. 15 And that's what's making it hard to -- to 16 talk about what law is -- is there that -- that I kind of 17 understand that possession is something like nine-tenths 18 (9/10) of the law. 19 Like I don't think -- know anything about 20 the law but I know that when you're there in person you - 21 - maybe I am an occupier, maybe I'm not. If that's -- if 22 that's what the role of an occupier is when they take 23 possession of their lands, this is where the question of 24 whose law protects whom. 25 Q: Applies, right. Whose law applies,
1611 right? 2 A: Yeah. Yeah. 3 Q: Okay. And then the last part is, is 4 I take it, your view would have been in July of 1995 that 5 you and the other Stoney Pointers ought to -- ought to be 6 able to essentially police yourselves. 7 You ought to be able to look after your 8 own affairs in the Base? 9 A: I'm pretty sure that's something -- 10 somewhere along the lines that I heard the Elders quoting 11 at that time, yeah. Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 13 you, Mr. George, that I'm going to hear evidence that in 14 July of 1995, one (1) of the things that Commander Smith 15 did was he held a cross-cultural awareness -- training 16 session that was led by Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone 17 (phonetic) for the Military personnel. 18 Did you know about that? 19 A: I heard about it, yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And I understand that we'll 21 hear evidence that Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone spoke to 22 you in July of 1995 about a meeting to be held at Oneida 23 on August 26th. Do you recall that? 24 A: August 26th? I -- I know that there 25 was dates of -- of these meetings and -- and I don't know
1621 if I was -- I -- can't remember if I tried to attend 2 these meetings, because -- 3 Q: Okay. I'm not -- I'm not suggesting 4 there were meetings. My question to you was, do you 5 recall in July of 1995, speaking with Bruce Elijah and 6 Bob Antone about a meeting that was supposed to occur at 7 Oneida in August? Do you recall that? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: Okay. I anticipate that we're going 10 to hear evidence that they spoke to you about this at 11 least three (3) times. 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Let me see if I can help you a little 14 bit to see if I can refresh your memory. The meeting, I 15 -- I anticipate we'll hear evidence that the meeting was 16 to be between people from Kettle and Stony Point, people 17 from Stoney Point, the Military, M.M. Dilon, the Kettle 18 Point Police and the OPP. 19 And the purpose of it was to be to work 20 out a plan so that the environmental assessment could get 21 done and the Base could be turned over. Now, do you 22 recall discussing that with Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone? 23 A: I -- I remember hearing some things 24 directed in that area, but I know that the stuff that 25 Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone were helping with at that
1631 time was how the -- the part of moving into the -- the 2 built-up area on July 29th -- that was my understanding 3 of -- of their involvement. 4 And if there -- if there was meetings 5 after that, I -- I -- basically I have no knowledge of 6 that. Like -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I -- I remember them -- 9 Q: So -- 10 A: -- being involved on that date -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- when we moved into the barracks. 13 Q: Yeah, no, this was before this. This 14 -- this was in the middle of July before the move into 15 the -- into the built-up area. And I anticipate we'll 16 hear evidence from Bob Antone and/or Bruce Elijah that 17 the Stoney Point group, through their discussions with 18 you, had agreed to attend the meeting and would be 19 sending three (3) people. 20 Do you remember that? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: Okay. Now, you gave some evidence 23 yesterday, Mr. George, about the takeover of the built-up 24 area. And I think you told the Commissioner yesterday 25 that you knew as a result of your bail conditions that
1641 you weren't allowed in the built-up area. 2 Do you remember that? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And you told him you didn't go in 5 there on July 29th. Do you remember that? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you said that others had told you 8 about a plan to go in. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. Now I'm going to suggest to 11 you, Mr. George, that you were active in planning to take 12 over the built-up area. Do you agree with that? 13 A: I have to answer you, yes. Ever 14 since I was born, I guess I was active in wanting to take 15 over the Camp. 16 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 17 George, that you took part in a meeting or meetings with 18 people who were from the Stoney Point group and who were 19 on the Base, about taking over the built-up area. 20 A: I, myself never attended no meeting. 21 I was given information that those people that went in 22 there, they come and told me what they were going to do 23 and that -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- that's all my involvement was.
1651 Q: I got to tell you, Mr. George, we 2 have heard from a number of witnesses at this Inquiry so 3 far, that you were part of the meetings to plan taking 4 over the built-up area. For example, we heard from 5 Wesley George on November 30th, 2004 that you were 6 present at the meeting on the beach about taking over the 7 built-up area. 8 A: That place at the beach was where I 9 was living and -- and I never invited anybody there. 10 They showed up to tell me their intentions and that's 11 what happened. 12 Q: And we heard evidence from Harley 13 George on January 20th, 2005 that you were at the 14 meeting, planning to take over the built-up area. 15 A: I have to answer that -- that 16 question there the same way that these people who 17 actually moved into the barracks had come to where my 18 lodging was to come and tell me these things. 19 I can't -- I can't control those -- those 20 young men, because those same two (2) young men that 21 you're talking about were in the back seat of that car 22 that those two (2) people that died and it's the same 23 thing. 24 I never told them to get into the car. I 25 had no knowledge of them -- those people driving around
1661 and I can't control the -- those people, and I never made 2 any statement as such that they should go do this, or 3 they should do that, that -- that's kind of like opinion, 4 so to speak. 5 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 6 George, that on July 29th, 1995, you were one (1) of the 7 people who took over the built-up area. 8 A: No. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: We have a document, Mr. George, and 13 for the assistance of Counsel it is Document Number 14 7000243. And according to that document, three (3) 15 things happened almost simultaneously when the built-up 16 area was taken over. 17 First of all, the school bus came through 18 the north access gate. Secondly, about a hundred (100) 19 people came through the Camp on foot by the main gate, 20 and thirdly, you and other people removed the barriers 21 located on the Strand Road and came into the built-up 22 area. Do you recall that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And we heard evidence from Marlin 25 Simon on September 28th, 2004 is that you were one (1) of
1671 the people who entered the Base on July 29th. 2 A: The only time I went to the Base that 3 day was when I was asked to go there to meet with Bruce 4 Elijah and Bob Antone and Mr. Captain Smith, I think his 5 name was. And that was it. 6 Q: And we heard evidence from Nicholas 7 Cotrelle on January 18th, 2005 that you were in the 8 built-up area and you were at the parade square, just 9 after the bus crashed into the drill hall. 10 A: No, I wasn't. I wasn't around no bus 11 crashing into no drill hall, no. 12 Q: And we heard from Harley George on 13 January 20th, 2005 that you were present at the takeover 14 and you were an apparent leader. 15 A: I thought I was a councillor or the 16 chief. Now I'm the leader? Thank you. Thank you. I -- 17 I have to thank these people, you know, like if they, in 18 turn, wish to ask me if that's the title that I wish to 19 have, well then, I would agree to have that, but no, I 20 never. 21 Q: Mr. George, I'm suggesting to you 22 that you're not being honest when you say that you 23 weren't part of the group that took over the built-up 24 area. And I'm telling you that a number of other people 25 have given evidence you were there. I anticipate --
1681 A: I wasn't there. 2 Q: -- we're going to hear evidence, in 3 the future, you were there. 4 A: I'm telling you I wasn't there, I was 5 at the beach. 6 Q: And I'm giving you a chance -- 7 A: And all of these people who you are 8 mentioning come to where I was living to tell me their 9 intentions and that's all. I never went to the built-up 10 area. 11 You, yourself, spoke about a hundred (100) 12 people going in there. I never told a hundred (100) 13 people to do this. I never told those young men to do 14 that, that was their plan, that was their doings. 15 Q: And you were asked some questions, 16 Mr. George, yesterday by Mr. Worme about whether you knew 17 Les Jewel or not. And I think you told Mr. Worme that 18 you had met him and I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 19 George, that in fact, Les Jewel was living with you at 20 the time. 21 A: No. 22 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that when 23 you moved into the built-up area, Les Jewel was living 24 with you. 25 A: When I moved into the built-up area
1691 my old girlfriend had cleaned it out. It's the old 2 storehouse right next to the gatehouse and I don't recall 3 moving up there until the middle of August. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: So -- 6 Q: -- I'm going to suggest to you -- 7 A: -- to -- to me, I don't know how 8 these people here claimed to move in there. I know I 9 didn't clean the building out to -- to house somebody 10 else. They -- they can clean their own building out. 11 Q: We heard evidence from Glen Bressette 12 on November 10th, 2004 that when you lived in the built- 13 up area prior to September the 6th, that Les Jewel was 14 living with you. 15 A: Les Jewel, I think had been evicted 16 out of his house. I think he was living in Roseville 17 (phonetic), Michigan. 18 And the events that you're talking about 19 was -- I wasn't in the Camp at the time. And what 20 happened was, these people who you speak of, showed up 21 with lock, stock and barrel from their house in Roseville 22 and they basically unloaded this -- this truck into the 23 place where I am living still today. And to me they 24 basically needed a place to store their stuff to get it 25 off the truck and they did not live with me.
1701 Q: Okay. And when you say -- 2 A: And during that time, they had moved 3 into another building on their own. 4 Q: Okay. Well, we heard from Roderick 5 George on November 23rd, 2004, that again, that Les Jewel 6 was living with you. 7 A: Again, do you want me to tell you 8 again that it was like a storage place. Okay? I, 9 myself, told you I didn't clean it out to be used as a 10 storage place. I wanted to use it for my own living 11 quarters and if I helped him out, I helped him out. I 12 didn't live with him. 13 Q: And, Mr. George, you also gave some 14 evidence yesterday about the taking over of the Park. 15 And I'm going to suggest to you that the 16 same as with the built-up area, you were one (1) of the 17 people who planned the takeover of the Park. 18 A: Me, going to move there on May 6th, 19 1993, I guess I -- I being present living on -- on these 20 lands now. I guess somewhere, somehow whoever out there 21 is writing these things that, you know, that I know that 22 I was basically the only one visual for the longest time 23 from '93 right on up to this time that you're speaking 24 of. 25 But yeah, everybody around there that
1711 drove by down the road used to see me. Everybody walking 2 down the road used to see me. Everybody riding in a boat 3 down on the beach used to see me. See, these are the 4 things that -- because I'm in the area, yeah, somehow 5 along the lines I -- I've acquired all of these charges 6 that -- that now I have a criminal record and -- and now 7 you -- you're looking for someone to build your case for 8 you. Well, no, I -- I never -- 9 Q: Mr. George, I'm -- I'm asking you -- 10 A: -- went around canvassing door to 11 door trying to look for people to go in there and take 12 over the Park. I never did that. 13 Q: No, I asked you, I suggested -- 14 A: No, I never had no -- 15 Q: -- to you -- 16 A: -- part of moving in that Park. 17 Q: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 19 moment. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 22 Q: Well, I'm going to -- we have heard 23 evidence at this Commission, Mr. George, that a meeting 24 was held the night before or the day of September the 25 4th, 1995 that when the Park was taken over, and we've
1721 heard that you were present at that meeting. 2 A: Which day is this? 3 Q: The Park was taken over on September 4 the 4th, 1995 and I'm suggesting to you that you were one 5 (1) of the people who attended a meeting within a day of 6 that and planned the takeover of the Park. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I don't recall being at a meeting, 11 no. 12 Q: Okay, because we heard evidence from 13 Clayton George on November the 4th, 2004 that you were 14 present at the meeting along with Les Jewel, the night 15 before, that is on September the 3rd -- 16 A: September the 3rd? 17 Q: And the meeting -- and the meeting 18 was about taking over the Park. Do you recall that? 19 A: So this meeting is on the -- on the 20 3rd of September? Is that what you're saying, on the 3rd 21 of September? 22 Q: I told you that Clayton George -- 23 George's evidence was -- was that there was a meeting. 24 It was the night before the takeover of the Park and you 25 were there with Les Jewel.
1731 A: I don't recall that, no. 2 Q: And we also heard from Roderick 3 George that you were one (1) of the people that was 4 discussing taking over the Park. 5 A: This is on the same day? 6 Q: I'm -- I'm telling you that that is 7 the evidence of Roderick George. Do you agree with that 8 or do you disagree with that? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And -- 11 MR. DONALD WORME: I wonder if I could 12 just interrupt briefly. I hate to interrupt My Friend. 13 I know that she's in the middle of a very important 14 point. And a lot of these questions have been asked, Mr. 15 Commissioner, and I recognize that My Friend wants now to 16 put to the Witness the testimony of other witnesses, and 17 I think, to some degree, that ought to be allowable. 18 But I think it's also fair to present to 19 the Witness, and I think he's asked for it, the specific 20 date as to when the witness Roderick George, for example, 21 has alleged to have made these statements and in 22 reference to what. 23 And I think it's fair that that be put to 24 the Witness. Otherwise we're going to continue to get 25 the answer he said a number of times, I wasn't at a
1741 meeting. And if she could be more specific in that, then 2 perhaps that might be helpful. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I am 4 being as specific as I can about what the previous 5 witnesses have said. And so, for example, with Clayton 6 George when he gave a specific date, a specific time, and 7 a specific location, I've provided that to Mr. George. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: If I have that 10 information, I will do that. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Have 12 you got much more on this point? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: I do not. I am almost 14 done. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's finish 16 it. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: And we heard evidence from Tina 21 George on January 19th, that there was a meeting on the 22 beach and that Les Jewel said to you, Well, when are you 23 going to go into the Park, then? 24 And that you said, I don't know. And 25 someone else said, Now's as good a time as any. Do you
1751 recall that? 2 A: No. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And lastly I'm going to suggest to 7 you, Mr. George, that you surely were one (1) of the 8 people who were involved in the takeover of the Park, 9 that you came into the Park with the other Stoney Point 10 people. 11 A: Say what you want. I know what I did 12 and I wasn't in there. I told you that, you know, I was 13 watching these things as -- as they -- as they happened. 14 I was standing on the dunes next to the -- to the 15 marriage patch and to my -- as far as I can recall I 16 remember that where the police had showed up and there's 17 -- moving on from there that I seen people that went in 18 and entered the -- the Park, and I didn't even go into 19 the Park. And again, it was I got charged for detaining 20 a Park and forcible entry to a Park. 21 And I was managing to watch these things 22 happen in front of my own eyes and here I am again. I 23 got charged for doing all of these things and I had no 24 part of it. 25 Q: Sure. And we heard from Glenn
1761 Bressette on November 9th, 2004, that you and Dudley and 2 Glenn, that is Glenn Bressette, went into the Park with a 3 group of other people. And we heard from Gabriel 4 Doxtator, on November 29th, 2004, that you were in the 5 Park, then. 6 A: I was always in the Park prior to us 7 moving into the Military Camp. I -- 8 Q: No. On September the 4th -- 9 A: -- was always in there regardless. 10 Q: -- on September the 4th 1995 -- 11 A: On September the 4th there was a lot 12 of people that might say all of these things and to me I 13 -- I'm just like anybody else, you know. I've never had 14 a chance to view what statements they had stated to you 15 or to the Commission; I never seen these. And as far as 16 I'm concerned some of the ones that are making those 17 types of statements maybe they were pressured into making 18 those statements or whatever. 19 I -- I don't know. I -- I never talked to 20 them. And as for the date, at hand, there was a lot of 21 things that took place in September 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 22 8th. I don't really recall. I'm doing my best here to - 23 - to help you and to help this Inquiry. 24 Q: Well I'm trying to help you, Mr. 25 George. Because your evidence about your activities,
1771 both in the planning and the takeover of the built-up 2 area and the Park, is at odds with a number of other 3 people and the contemporaneous documentation. 4 A: To me, I don't make the minds up of 5 other peoples, I only make the mind up for my own self. 6 And if a lot of those people feel like I guess that I'm 7 the leader, I'm the councillor, I'm the chief, then I 8 guess that's their view. I again, state I never had any 9 involvement in any type of elections or anything like 10 that. 11 And I guess it's something that people 12 bestow upon you I guess that maybe that's a part of my 13 inheritance. Maybe it's something to do with the lineage 14 of my ancestors. But to me, I -- I don't go around 15 telling people what to do and I don't recall being at a 16 meeting with Les Jewel. 17 I know Les Jewel to see him, I don't take 18 no direction from him. I know that he has a family, he 19 has -- he's got a couple of brothers and a sister and 20 that's about all I know of the man. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 22 You've answered the question now. Do you want -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- do you 25 want to move on or?
1781 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Mr. George, I wanted to ask you some 5 questions about the statement that you gave to the SIU on 6 October the 14th, 1995. This was something that Mr. 7 Worme reviewed with you yesterday and it's something I 8 think you indicated that you had read. 9 Do you recall that? 10 And if it gives you some assistance, I 11 think you have the Binder of Documents there. And can 12 you turn to your interview with the SIU, I believe it's 13 your Tab 12 but I could be wrong. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is the 18 interview with Wayne Allen, right? Ms. Jones, this is 19 the interview with Wayne Allen on October 14th? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this the 22 interview with Wayne Allen? Am I looking at the right 23 document? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, it is and I'm 25 sorry. I should have been a little bit clearer about
1791 that. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 3 fine. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Yeah. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: And if you turn to page 5 of that 8 document. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And you'll see there's a question 13 from Mr. Allen, answer from you, Mr. George. 14 Question from Mr. Allen: 15 "You were talking about Dudley knowing 16 the history of --" 17 And then an answer by you, and as I 18 understand from looking at that passage, you were 19 explaining to Mr. Allen about the land that you believed 20 belong to Stoney Point. And I know people have asked you 21 some questions about this. I'm just not exactly sure of 22 what all land you say belongs to the Stoney Point group 23 or a combination of that and the Kettle and Stony Point 24 Band. And I'm wondering if you can help us with that 25 today?
1801 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Ms. Tuck-Jackson took you through the 4 first part of it where you're talking about from Camp 5 Gate Road to Ravenswood Road. And there's also a section 6 below where you're talking about the Aux Sable River 7 right in the Pinery and I take it by that you were 8 referring to the Pinery Park? 9 A: See, even that there where these 10 statements that were from the SIU, even myself was -- was 11 never really given. I know that they were taped. Even 12 myself was never really given the time to read over them 13 because I would have straightened out that part of the -- 14 the writing there where it talks about the Aux Sable 15 Indians, lived on the Aux Sable River; that's part of the 16 -- the term that the community, I guess, was given when, 17 I guess the French were, I guess in power, so to speak, 18 that they termed them the Aux Sable Indians. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I don't know if you've read that in 21 any of the history in the past that was given. 22 Q: Okay. Can you tell us today, in your 23 view, what -- what is the description of the land that 24 the Stoney Point group and -- 25 A: Here --
1811 Q: -- or the Kettle Point groups -- 2 A: I'll show, it's right there. 3 Q: Okay. So, you've held up Exhibit P- 4 40 and you're referring to a diagram of the Base and -- 5 is that P-40? Did I get that right? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-140. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 9 Q: P-140. I'm sorry, that's my mistake. 10 And that includes everything within, essentially, the 11 square; is that right? 12 A: That's what the people inside the 13 Camp from 1993 right on up until now are dealing with, is 14 that piece of property. 15 Q: Okay. So that goes from Outer Drive 16 on the east side to Army Camp Road on the west side; is 17 that right? 18 A: I think they match. Yeah, that's it. 19 Q: Right. So the boundary is on the 20 east side, Outer Drive down to the lake, right? 21 A: I'm pretty sure that's the way that 22 it is there. 23 Q: Okay. And on the west side you're 24 talking about Army Camp Road and extending that down to 25 the lake.
1821 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Right? And bordered on the south end 3 by Highway 21? Is that right? 4 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 5 Q: And is that all of the land that, in 6 your view, is at issue with the Stoney Point group and 7 the Kettle Point Band? 8 A: To my understanding that's what it 9 is. 10 Q: Okay. And if you turn to page 6 of 11 your statement and it's just about in the top third of 12 the page. And again you were talking about things that 13 Dudley knew. You say, and I'm about 8 lines down: 14 "Dudley knew everything about this 15 place. You know, like he might have 16 been a, you know, labelled as an 17 alcoholic or whatever else, you know. 18 It's a story that -- that the whole 19 family had went through." 20 Do you see that -- that part of the 21 paragraph? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what 24 you're referring to there? Why were you saying that 25 Dudley might have been labelled as an alcoholic or
1831 whatever else? 2 A: It's like what we were all going 3 through. We were all being labelled as Army Camp 4 Indians, squatters, you name it. I think we were all 5 called it and those are the types of things that when -- 6 when this statement was given, I remember that if you 7 even yourself was to look at it that, you know, you see 8 that part of where all of these things that took place 9 within the boundaries of this Camp, that -- that these 10 were basically where we lived. 11 And yeah, there is a history on the other 12 side of the fence. Just like there's a history down the 13 road and to me I don't know if I can change the past. If 14 I could, I would, but I can't. So here it is the -- 15 these things that might be written like that that -- you 16 know, it was something that, I, myself would like to see 17 some of those things that, you know, that are being 18 brought out here fixed. 19 Because some -- some of this stuff hurts. 20 It hurts, you know, to the fact that my cousin is no 21 longer here to witness this stuff. And paying that 22 ultimate price, it's yeah, he -- he knew these things. 23 It's like I -- I myself I -- I'm just like him. I'm 24 still trying to cure myself of those things. 25 Q: Okay. And if you go onto page 18 of
1841 your Statement, I think you talk a little bit about that. 2 If you look at the bottom of page 18, you say: 3 "It's not real. You look at -- you 4 look at what happened with a lot of 5 these, you know, young men here. 6 Shit, there was guys down there, 7 fourteen (14), fifteen (15), even 8 little kids, ten (10), twelve (12) and 9 you ain't going to change what they 10 seen. You ain't going to change 11 anything about them, you know. What 12 they seen is real." 13 And you go on to say, at the bottom of 14 that paragraph, that: 15 "It's beyond this place now, you know. 16 It's like if anybody goes missing or 17 anybody shows up dead, I'm going to 18 tell you right now there's going to be 19 a fucking war." 20 And there's a question, a war between who? 21 And the answer is, 22 "There's going to be a war against 23 whoever, whoever wants to use force on 24 our people, you know. Like our people 25 still believe in pillaging and raping
1851 and whatever it is that it takes. 2 It's just like our instructions, tell 3 us you don't lay down and let somebody 4 fucking shoot you. You have the right 5 to defend yourself in your earth 6 mother." 7 A: Isn't that all after the fact? They 8 give -- like to me -- like I know what was said there. 9 And this was said in -- in the place where I live today 10 right now. 11 Q: Sure. 12 A: And to me when I was giving this 13 statement, yeah, there was -- there was a lot of anger 14 there. And to me, I'm -- I'm still working on that part 15 of getting rid of that anger because I know for a fact I 16 wasn't born with it. But here it is now that, you know, 17 there's -- there's this opportunity, this chance to 18 change these things to make it better, and that's what I 19 kind of hope that is coming out of this. 20 And if I got to read this whole thing 21 through I -- I could and I would change it. And that's 22 what I hope that the future allows us to do is to change. 23 Q: Okay. And if you move onto page 23 24 you, and I just want to make sure you have a chance to 25 read that page, especially at the bottom. Because you
1861 were asked some questions about Vince George. And you 2 talk a little -- a little bit about his brother, Luke, as 3 well as Carmen Bressette and, I guess, Spike. 4 And you talk a little bit on that page and 5 the page over about your views about those people. And I 6 take it those are all people from Kettle Point who have 7 become police officers? 8 A: Those are my first cousins. 9 Q: Right, right. 10 A: Just like Dudley was a first cousin. 11 Q: Sure. And is it your view that 12 having -- 13 A: Having first cousins as police, it 14 didn't help Dudley any. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: I can't change that. 17 Q: Right, okay. What was -- 18 A: I mean, what do you want? 19 Q: -- what was your view that having 20 first cousins as police, what was your view that it would 21 change or it could change? 22 A: I was positive in thinking that maybe 23 what happened wouldn't have happened. That's -- that's 24 where we are. 25 Q: Okay. And I then just wanted to -- I
1871 have a -- just a few more questions for you, Mr. George. 2 I wanted to take you back to September 5, 1995 and that 3 is the day before Dudley George was shot. 4 And I understand from your evidence that 5 you had a dump truck at the Base? 6 A: Those were things that if you were to 7 look on the truck it says "W. A. George". That's my 8 brother, Warren George and the father of my nephew, 9 Warren George junior. Same thing with the bus. It was 10 my -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- brother. 13 Q: I had understood from your evidence 14 yesterday, Mr. George, and maybe I got it wrong, was that 15 you were the person who was driving the dump truck in and 16 out of the Park on September -- at least 5th and 6th. 17 A: I remember that -- that -- that day I 18 was driving the dump truck, on it'd be September the 6th. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: That day. 21 Q: And were you the only person -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- that drove the dump truck, so far 24 as you know? 25 A: After I -- after that -- that
1881 shooting I know that there was several different drivers, 2 because it only lasted -- 3 Q: After when? 4 A: After Dudley got shot. 5 Q: Okay, before Dudley -- 6 A: There was several different drivers. 7 Q: Okay. Before Dudley -- 8 A: And then the truck broke down. 9 That's -- 10 Q: I'm sorry. Before Dudley got shot. 11 So on the 5th and the 6th, so far as you know, were you 12 the only person who was driving the dump truck? 13 A: Gees, I don't know. I -- I know -- I 14 know my nephews and my brother and that were in and out 15 of it, too. I -- I just wasn't the only one. But -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- I know that prior to the -- to 18 what happened with Dudley, I was -- I was going down the 19 road in the dump truck, yeah. 20 Q: I'm sorry? I just didn't hear what 21 you said. Prior to...? 22 A: That night when Dudley -- 23 Q: Yeah -- 24 A: -- got shot -- 25 Q: Yes.
1891 A: I said that I was driving that truck 2 down there that night. 3 Q: Okay. Okay, and I'm asking you that 4 because I anticipate that we'll hear some evidence that 5 on the night of September the 5th, people heard the -- a 6 front-end loader and the dump truck working in the Park. 7 And so I wanted to ask you if, first of all, if you were 8 the person who was in the dump truck on September the 9 5th? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you know who had the dump truck? 14 A: No. 15 Q: On the night of September the 5th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you keep the 18 keys to the dump truck? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Who did? 21 A: To my knowledge, they're still in it. 22 Q: Okay. So you would -- you would 23 just -- 24 A: Nobody -- 25 Q: Okay.
1901 A: Nobody touches it. It's like they're 2 probably -- the keys are probably still in the bus -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- too. 5 Q: During the period September 5th and 6 6th, when you weren't in the dump truck, would it have 7 been your habit to leave the keys there or would you have 8 put the keys somewhere else? 9 A: I turned the key like that, started 10 up driving if I need it. I didn't take the keys because 11 somebody else might have needed it and -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- we don't -- we don't worry about 14 things being stolen like that. 15 Q: Okay. And I just wanted to move on 16 to September 6th and make sure that I understand what 17 your evidence is about what happened that evening. I 18 think you told us that you were in the Park, in and out 19 of the Park, on September the 6th; is that right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: So you're going between -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- the Park in the Base? 24 A: I was down the beach a few times, -- 25 Q: The beach.
1911 A: -- that's -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- and I still used to live down 4 there, when it was hot out and... 5 Q: Okay. And you told us, I think, that 6 you saw Gerald George talking to the police on Army Camp 7 Road? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And you told us that sometime 10 around between 8:30 and nine o'clock, you spoke with 11 Clifford George at his trailer? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And were you driving the dump 14 truck at the time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And do you recall Marlin Simon 17 coming down to Clifford George's trailer while you were 18 in the trailer, and telling you and Clifford George that 19 stuff was going down in the Park? Do you recall that? 20 A: Not offhand, no, I don't. 21 Q: Okay. And do you recall going back 22 to the Park after you met with Clifford George? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: Okay. And what did you do after you 25 went back to the Park in the dump truck? So that was
1921 after you met with Clifford. 2 A: After I met with Clifford, -- 3 Q: Right. 4 A: -- on -- on my way to the Park, I 5 made this fire, by the chain-link fence, which is on the 6 -- on the, I guess it'd be along Outer Drive, or not 7 Outer Drive, but Army Camp Road there, right on the -- on 8 the, it would be the -- inside the chain-link fence, 9 right, it would be the built-up area. 10 Q: Right. And we heard some evidence 11 from David George on October 20th, 2004, that when he was 12 going back and forth between the Park and the Base, that 13 he noticed that there were a number of police on Army 14 Camp Road, just by the gate. 15 Is that about the area where you say you 16 saw the police? 17 A: Who are you asking, Dave or me? 18 Q: Pardon me? 19 A: You asking me about a fire, or are 20 you -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- asking about where Dave seen cops, 23 or what are you talking about? 24 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest to you 25 that, or I want to check, I'm assuming, and maybe I'm
1931 wrong, -- 2 A: My fire, I made it right along there. 3 Q: -- that where you fire was, was 4 across the road in the Base from where the police were? 5 A: Say that again. 6 Q: Can -- let me do this a little 7 simpler. Can you use your pointer, and can you show us, 8 first of all, where your fire was, and you've just 9 indicated that -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- it is north of, sorry, -- 12 A: It would -- it would be -- 13 Q: -- yeah, north of the built-up 14 area, -- 15 A: It was in that chain-link fence, -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- inside the built-up area, right... 18 Q: Okay. And where were the police that 19 you saw? 20 A: Oh, I seen them here at the corner, 21 about here just almost to the gate, and I seen them right 22 there, right across from where I was, I seen them go 23 halfway down here. And I seen them on that -- on that 24 hill, this is the ridge right here, I seen them here and 25 I seen them about halfway down again, and I seen them
1941 right about here, is where about they were talking with 2 Gerald George, Booper, -- 3 Q: Okay. And I'm going to -- 4 A: and that's just along that road, 5 that's -- there could have been more, but, -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- I remember there was probably 8 about a dozen cruisers. 9 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. 10 George, you've told us about making the fire, I'm going 11 to suggest to you that there were a number of people with 12 you, when -- when you made the fire, that you weren't by 13 yourself. 14 A: I was there making a fire and -- and 15 the reason I seen these -- these -- the OPPs, to my 16 understanding, I thought -- I seen them cutting the fence 17 and that was at that time when I -- I stopped the truck. 18 And I -- at that area where this fire took place, there 19 was -- there was straw, there was crates, there was old 20 screen doors, and screens for the windows that -- I went 21 like that with a match, and I had a big fire. 22 Q: Sure. 23 A: I wasn't -- 24 Q: What -- what I'm suggesting to you, 25 though, is that there were a number of people with you at
1951 the fire, you weren't by yourself, that's number 1. Do 2 you agree with that or do you disagree with that? 3 A: Number 1 is, there was Brenda -- 4 Brenda George and Jane Manning, I think her name was. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Those were the two (2) women that 7 came to me and told me to take my fight somewhere else. 8 Q: Okay. I don't understand what you've 9 just said, so I want to go back a little bit. 10 A: I'm just telling you what went on 11 here. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: You -- you talk about other people, 14 well I'm telling you what I went through and what I seen. 15 Q: Okay. So, are you saying, then, that 16 there were two (2) other people in addition to yourself? 17 A: Those two (2) other people -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- came there after the fire was 20 going and I was just getting in the truck and I was going 21 back down to the Park. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: That's what happened in between the 24 time I left Clifford's and the time I got to the Park, 25 was I made this fire.
1961 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 2 you that at the time that you made the fire, and you were 3 at and around the fire, you had your dump truck there. 4 A: Yeah, that's what I said I was 5 driving -- 6 Q: For sure. 7 A: -- the dump truck. 8 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 9 you that there were other vehicles there as well as your 10 dump truck? 11 A: I can't recall, I can only drive one 12 (1) thing at a time and I remember I was driving the 13 truck. 14 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 15 one (1) of the things, in addition to starting a fire, 16 that you did, was that you would shine the lights of your 17 dump truck onto the police; do you agree with that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 20 other vehicles who were -- that were there around your 21 dump truck would also do the same thing. 22 A: No. I can't -- I can't speak for 23 them. 24 Q: That you were spotlighting the 25 police.
1971 A: I can only speak for myself. 2 Q: Okay. And how soon after you met 3 with Cliff, at 8:30 or 9:00, how long did it take you to 4 build the fire? 5 A: I'm pretty sure that from the time I 6 left Clifford's it would be probably -- from the time 7 that I left Clifford's and the time that this fire took 8 place and the time that I got to the beach was -- I had 9 just picked Dudley up. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: When he was on the ground, I helped 12 pick him up. I don't know what time I left Clifford's. 13 I don't know how long I was at this fire. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I know it wasn't -- the fire was up 16 and burning like this. It was high as the ceiling and 17 about maybe five (5) minutes, maybe, no more than that. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: So I don't know what time it is that 20 they put on -- what time Dudley got shot, but when I got 21 there I helped pick him up and put him in the car. 22 Q: Okay. Now, one (1) of -- I have two 23 (2) more areas to cover with you and I don't expect 24 they'll take too long. I just wanted to let you know 25 where I'm at here, Mr. George.
1981 We heard some evidence that after Dudley 2 George was shot, that a number of people, including you, 3 went out into the sandy parking lot area and along Army 4 Camp Road and East Parkway and were picking up casings; 5 do you recall that? 6 A: I remember doing that in the morning. 7 Q: Okay. And when you got -- when you 8 were in the Park in the morning and you were going out in 9 the sandy parking lot area and along East Parkway and 10 Army Camp Road, we've also heard some other evidence that 11 the sandy parking lot had a lot of debris in it; stones 12 and sticks and, in one (1) case we heard about a broken 13 shield or shields. 14 Do you recall seeing that? 15 A: I seen these things after, but I 16 never stopped to pick anything up or anything like that. 17 Like -- 18 Q: No, no. I'm just -- I'm just asking 19 you about -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- the condition of the sandy parking 22 lot on September the 7th. That's all I'm asking you 23 about. 24 A: I can't recall. I think a lot of 25 that stuff was already picked up and gone by the time I
1991 come around there. 2 Q: Okay. Who -- who would have picked 3 it up and taken it away? Why was -- why was that being 4 cleaned up? 5 A: Your guess is as good as mine, I 6 don't know. 7 Q: Okay. And we heard, again, about the 8 picking up of casings and can you tell us what you did 9 when you were picking up casings? Where you went and 10 what you picked up? 11 A: Oh, gees. I was -- I was kind of 12 trying to find out these things as to what happened with 13 my mother, that was my main concern at that time. And 14 that when those people come from Kettle Point they'd 15 locked down the road, I remember that's the only time 16 that I went down to where that shooting took place in -- 17 in the morning. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And I don't -- I don't recall. I -- 20 I -- I remember a lot of the people that came there had 21 been picking up casings and they were finding them in the 22 -- in the sand and they were finding them in the grass 23 and stuff like that. I -- I was -- 24 Q: Okay. Now do you recall yourself 25 picking up casings?
2001 A: I think I found one (1), yeah. 2 Q: Okay. Do you recall what you found 3 and where you found it? 4 A: I'm pretty sure it was a -- I don't 5 know if it was a forty (40) calibre, I think it was. 6 Q: Okay. And where did you find it? 7 A: Right at the intersection, right in 8 this area I guess. 9 Q: And -- and just for the record, what 10 you're pointing at is the curve between East Parkway and 11 Army Camp Road, and you're pointing to the -- the tarmac 12 area? 13 A: It was right in this area right in 14 here. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And then -- 17 Q: Just -- just -- 18 A: -- just off to the side of the -- 19 like it had tar and chip on the road and there was sand 20 off to the side. 21 Q: Okay. You might be of assistance, 22 Mr. George, because it's hard to keep track of these 23 things. You may have before you, a smaller version of 24 that map of the intersection? 25
2011 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm just -- I actually -- I'm sorry, 4 Mr. George, I don't think you do. So Mr. Millar's just 5 going to help you out here and get you one. And I'm just 6 wondering if -- when he does, if you can mark on that 7 where you recall finding the casing, okay? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And while we're waiting for that, we 12 heard some evidence from Glenn Bressette on November the 13 9th, 2004, that in the morning of September the 7th, a 14 group of people went out to where the shooting had been 15 and were picking up empty shell casings. 16 And one (1) of the things that Glenn 17 Bressette said is that he particularly remembered you 18 picking up shell casings and putting them in a bag. 19 A: That's possible. I remember picking 20 one (1) up, maybe there was more. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I kind of, you know. I try to 23 remember everything but I -- 24 Q: No, I understand that. Glenn 25 Bressette also gave evidence on November 10th, 2004, that
2021 you had counted the casings that were found and that 2 there were twenty-nine (29) of them, and you had them in 3 a little bag; do you recall that? 4 A: I know there was -- I know there was 5 about three (3) or four (4) people that -- this -- this 6 took place as they were -- they -- they got there and I - 7 - and I remember, pretty sure, some -- there was a radio 8 station, two (2) radio -- or television stations that had 9 cameras going, and I can't remember exactly how many that 10 were there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And I don't recall who had taken the 13 -- the casings that were in the bag. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I know that, Yeah I found them, big 16 deal, here you -- here's your souvenir, I don't want 17 them. 18 Q: I just wanted to ask you though; you 19 didn't have the bag of casings? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? Okay. And you don't know who 22 did? 23 A: Not off hand, no. I -- I know that I 24 -- I remember reaching down and picking up one (1) but I 25 remember looking around, there was all kinds of them,
2031 yeah, there were lots of them. 2 Q: Well what -- what did you see? Tell 3 us what you saw. 4 A: I just told you. I told you I seen 5 lots of them. I -- I -- 6 Q: Okay. Well -- 7 A: -- I seen other people picking them 8 up. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Okay. Mr. George, Mr. Millar's just 13 told me that he'll get one (1) of those maps for you but 14 we'll do it at a break, okay? And I just have one (1) 15 more thing I wanted to ask you about, Mr. George. 16 And that is you had made some comments to 17 Mr. Worme yesterday about the guns that you had and a gun 18 being taken from you; do you recall that? 19 A: Well I'd like to have it back is what 20 -- is what you were asking. And I -- I don't believe in 21 them taking my guns away, there's any just to that. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: But, yeah, I do have, like a .22 24 magnum that -- 25 Q: Okay.
2041 A: -- I -- I had, I mean. 2 Q: Right. And -- 3 A: But I do have a .22, yeah? 4 Q: And I understand that you were 5 arrested on October 26, 1997? 6 A: '97? I think so. 7 Q: Regarding that gun? 8 A: October? 9 Q: Yes. Let me just -- let me just ask 10 you if I have the right incident. I understand that you 11 were driving at night with Randall Pru (phonetic), near 12 Highway 21 and Pinery Park; is that right? 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And you had the gun in the car and 15 that it was loaded? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Is that right? 18 MR. DONALD WORME: If My Friend can show 19 us the relevance of this, if I'm not mistaken, she had 20 referred to a period that I'm not sure that this 21 Commission is entitled to deal with. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's two (2) 23 years after. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I had 25 understood Mr. George yesterday, to make some comments
2051 about this and relating it to things that have happened 2 to Marlin Simon. And it wasn't particularly clear what 3 he was referring to and what happened with Marlin Simon. 4 And if it's helpful, I can -- 5 THE WITNESS: I know that as a -- as a 6 guy in school, I remember I had a -- a .22 taken away 7 when I was hunting, also, that I had gotten back, but I 8 never got my .22 magnum back yet. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: Okay. Well, was it that, you were 12 talking about in school or were -- were you talking about 13 the gun that was taken from you in 1997, by Constable 14 Wondergem? When you were at -- 15 A: I'm still waiting to get that gun 16 returned. 17 Q: All right. But is that the incident 18 you were talking about? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. And when you were 21 making a comment about Marlin Simon, that was because in 22 October of 1995, he had been charged with Unlawfully 23 Hunting and Unlawfully Possessing a Firearm, and it was 24 the same gun. Isn't that what you were talking about? 25 A: Yeah.
2061 Q: Okay. And those are my questions, 2 Mr. Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. You'll get that document on the break, or 5 during the break? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, it has to be 7 printed and Mr. George could mark it and then we can mark 8 it. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 Well, this would be a good time to take a break. Thank 11 you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 2:57 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 3:16 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 22 Q: And, Mr. George, just for 23 housekeeping purposes, I now have a small copy of the 24 document that's behind you. Do you have one (1) in front 25 of you too? Mr. George...? Okay. And you've marked on
2071 there where you found the casing. 2 A: Right here. 3 Q: And, can you mark that -- well, is 4 that with a "1" or an "X"? What -- how did you mark it? 5 A: It's a "5". 6 Q: A "5". Okay. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And you've said that you saw other 9 casings in the area. Could you mark on there where you 10 saw the other casings? 11 A: They were the same area. 12 Q: The same area? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, could 15 we have that document made an exhibit in this Proceeding? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-145. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-145. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-145: 7"x11" "Stan" Thompson 21 Drawing September 20/'95, 22 marked by witness Glenn 23 George, February 02/'05 24 25 MS. KAREN JONES: And lastly, just for
2081 housekeeping, Mr. Commissioner, I had taken Mr. George to 2 two (2) documents, the Information and the Recognizance, 3 and I'd ask both of those be made Exhibits. 4 The first is the Information, containing 5 the charges against Glenn George, and that was 6 Document 7000257. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-146. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-146. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-146: Document 7000257, the 11 Information, containing the 12 charges against Glenn George. 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the 15 Recognizance? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Of Glenn George, dated 17 July 6th, 1995, and that was Document 7000301. And I'll 18 make -- 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-146. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 147? 21 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 147. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-147: Document 7000301, Recognizance 25 re Glenn George dated July 6th, 1995.
2091 MS. KAREN JONES: And I'll provide you 2 with clean copies of those as well because mine are 3 mucked up. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you very much. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, Mr. 8 Downard on behalf of former Premier Harris. 9 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thank you, 10 Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 13 Q: Sir, my name's Peter Downard and I 14 act for the former Ontario Premier, Mike Harris and I 15 just have a few questions for you about subjects you've 16 covered in your -- your evidence so far. 17 Now, you recall that earlier today we had 18 the newspaper article up on the screen that reported on 19 Maynard T. George being acclaimed Chief in June of 1993. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A: June of '93? 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: I -- I seen the -- the clipping 24 after. 25 Q: Oh, okay. You -- well, you can take
2101 it from me that's a clipping dated June 1993. And what 2 I'd like to refer you to, you'll see that I've put in 3 front of you a thick binder, which I don't expect to 4 refer that much to, and I've taken the liberty of 5 providing a -- a copy to Commission Counsel and the 6 Commissioner. 7 And, sir, if you can take a look at Tab 5 8 under that brief, you'll see there's a document -- it's 9 Inquiry Document number 2002480. 10 There's the description page on the first 11 page under the tab. No, I don't think you've go the 12 right one, it's under Tab 5 and it is a -- a letter dated 13 September 5, 1993. Do you see that? 14 A: September 5th, 1993? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: It's a letter to the Superintendent 18 of the Ontario Provincial Police from one (1) Acting 19 Sergeant W. D. Silverman and I just want to refer you to 20 part of the text of this letter and ask you if you know 21 anything about what is being referred to here. 22 You'll see that in the -- the second 23 paragraph on the -- the first page -- and by the way, 24 would you like to have an opportunity to read the whole 25 letter before I go on?
2111 A: Sure. 2 Q: Okay, why don't you do that? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 7 Q: You've had a chance to read the 8 letter, sir? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. Now, you'll see that in 11 this letter it appears to refer to an officer looking for 12 Maynard T. George regarding a -- a rented van. Right? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And then it goes on to say, and I 15 quote: 16 "I attended at the native Camp at CFB 17 Ipperwash and spoke to Glenn George, a 18 councilor for the Stoney Point Band. 19 He could not say where Maynard was and 20 requested that if I did find Maynard, 21 that I pass on a message to Maynard 22 that there is a letter at the Camp to 23 be served on him by the Stoney Point 24 Band indicating that he is no longer 25 their Chief and does not represent them
2121 any longer." 2 Unquote. Now, do you recall anything 3 about telling a police officer in or about September -- 4 A: I know Wayne Silverman and I don't 5 remember talking to him. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 7 wait until he finishes, otherwise you're both speaking 8 and it won't get recorded on the transcript. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 11 Q: I think I do understand your answer. 12 I was going to ask you whether you have any recollection 13 of speaking to a police officer about Maynard T. George 14 and a letter for him at the Camp saying that he didn't 15 represent the Stoney Point Band any longer in September 16 of 1993 or about that time. 17 I take it your answer is, you don't recall 18 this discussion referred to in this letter? 19 A: When I -- when I read this letter I 20 seen that Wayne Silverman's name on the bottom, I don't 21 recall talking to Wayne Silverman about a truck or 22 Maynard or anything like that. 23 Q: Okay. But -- but you'll see that 24 where it's signed it says W.D. Silverman, Number 5200 25 Acting Sergeant for E.B. Becock (phonetic) Number 2156,
2131 Acting Staff Sergeant. 2 Do you recall having any discussion with 3 Acting Staff Sergeant Becock at around this time? 4 A: No, I don't. No. Like I -- I know 5 Wayne Silverman. I know -- I know him from .. 6 Q: I take it though that it's your 7 recollection that at some point Maynard T. George stopped 8 being a so called Chief. And I know you say a number of 9 people used the term, but that at some point he stopped 10 being a Chief of the Stoney Point people? 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: I don't know Maynard's business. I - 13 - you're -- you're asking something from me that I -- I 14 would leave that up to Maynard. I know that there was a 15 lot of people that were concerned of the -- the way that 16 the term leadership had been conducting business. 17 Like even I myself was not there to claim 18 a title or to say I'm a chief or whatever. I -- I didn't 19 go there for that. I don't know how like I just read 20 this for the first time here. 21 And I don't remember hearing anything from 22 any of the other people that knew of a truck being rented 23 or anything like that. Because I -- I guess I wasn't 24 worthy of it I guess. I don't know. 25 Q: Yeah. I'm -- I'm not interested in
2141 the truck. I'm just trying to understand whether as a 2 person who was living on the lands in that time frame, 3 you've any recollection of concerns that existed among 4 the people, the First Nations people, living on the lands 5 about Maynard T. George in that 1993 period. 6 A: I myself I -- I never personally had 7 thought of myself as a Chief nor Maynard or Carl or 8 anybody. 9 Q: Well when Roderick George was here, 10 he testified that after a time when Carl George stepped 11 down as Chief of the Stoney Point people which was a 12 point in time subsequent to the time frame we've been 13 looking at with this letter. 14 There was no new Chief elected and the 15 Council that exists for the Stoney Point people 16 dissolved. And within a year it was replaced by what he 17 referred to as principal men. And -- 18 A: I never -- I don't know who -- who's 19 making these suggestions. I wasn't a part of claiming to 20 be any of these principal man or leaders or chiefs or 21 whatever. I -- I went there to basically look after that 22 part of the interest within my own family that through 23 our culture we have heads of family as head men. 24 That when things happen, you usually have, 25 you know, like the input from one (1) family brought
2151 forward from -- usually that position is like a head man 2 that -- that things like these were -- were brought out. 3 And I don't recall ever meeting with like Maynard as 4 claiming to be the Chief. 5 I know that -- I think it was for media 6 purposes so that -- that's why he was doing what he was 7 doing. But to me I think I made it clear to him that he 8 wasn't my Chief type of thing. 9 Q: Okay so I just want to put to you 10 though, the rest of what Roderick George said about this 11 and just to get any comment you -- you have on it. 12 And I -- and I may have that comment 13 already, now, but to complete it, he had said that within 14 a year after Carl George stepping down as -- as Chief, he 15 was replaced by what he referred to as principle men and 16 he identified the principle men as you and himself, 17 Roderick George, and possibly also Clifford. 18 Does that square with your recollection or 19 not? 20 A: That could be so. It's like I told 21 you in our -- in our culture that, you know, there -- 22 there's the heads of families and at that time I think 23 there's, you know, like a -- a few families that were 24 there, maybe even more than a few that they were also, 25 you know, expected to chair somebody that -- that's how
2161 the collective interests were being brought forward. 2 You know, like, that was -- to my 3 understanding when we first moved in there in '93 that 4 that's what was taking place. 5 I kind of, I guess, accepted that part on 6 behalf of my family by being present and living on the 7 land and that, in turn I guess, is where other people 8 claimed to me as being a spokesperson and Chief or leader 9 or whatever. I -- I never heard them say these things to 10 me, but I guess that's what their interpretation is, like 11 now, I guess. 12 Q: So, your evidence then, if -- if -- 13 and tell me if I'm wrong, is that when you've said that 14 you were a head man, that was a head man in the sense of 15 being a head of your family? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And that's not being a head man in 18 the sense of people in your family and other people 19 living on the land as well. Is that right? 20 A: There's a number of families there 21 and -- 22 Q: Sure, but -- 23 A: -- each family is expected to have 24 their voice brought out through their head man of their 25 family.
2171 Q: Each -- each family is to have their 2 own head man? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And it isn't the case where the head 5 man of one (1) family is the head -- head man of the 6 other families, too. Right? 7 A: I'm pretty sure that's right, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. I -- I'm just trying to get 9 clear on your description of the situation. 10 Now, I want to ask you about this concept 11 of Stoney Point people as something that is different 12 from the membership of the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 13 Now -- 14 A: I know that through time there's been 15 several families that were adopted into the band at 16 Kettle Point. Those are things that took place -- be, 17 like, pre-Confederation and I think the -- the -- the 18 Inquiry, I think has record of those. As for how some of 19 those people today that were adopted into the band, it -- 20 it -- it still puzzles a lot of those families as to how 21 they acquired their voice. 22 See, it's like the -- the elected systems 23 that the Indian Affairs likes to, I guess, view as their 24 recognized entity that -- that's where the issue of the 25 way that the land at -- at Stoney Point was being dealt
2181 with as -- as private property. 2 See, because when you have an elected 3 system and you have people that are adopted into the band 4 wanting to speak for people who had owned this property, 5 those uprooted families, those are the ones that are to 6 speak on this land, not someone who is adopted into the 7 band and elected by the majority. 8 That's not an issue there. The issue is, 9 if they had been there as part of the -- the families 10 that had adopted them in, it's the family that adopted 11 them in that grants them this voice. And see, sometimes 12 I -- I guess through time, I guess that the -- I guess 13 the way that Indian Affairs deals with things is -- is 14 through, I guess the -- what's the term -- majority rule 15 type of thing? 16 And that when you're -- you're dealing 17 with the heads of family, you're usually dealing with the 18 part of consensus. I'm pretty sure I -- I think that's 19 what you're asking. 20 Q: Well, let me try to come at it a 21 little bit differently. I take it that in 1995 it was 22 your view that the people who had an ownership interest 23 in the lands at Stoney Point, were at least the members 24 of the families that had been uprooted from Stoney Point 25 in 1942; is that fair?
2191 A: I think that's what -- I'm getting 2 pretty close to being positive that that's the -- the 3 intentions of the consensus that was trying to be 4 obtained by having those families produce a head man, to 5 deal with the fact that they -- they too were like 6 descendants of the lands at Stoney Point. 7 Q: All right. So, in -- in 1995, it was 8 your view that the -- the Stoney Point people, as -- as 9 it were, the people who had an interest in the Stoney 10 Point lands, were any surviving members of the -- the 11 families that were moved off the lands in 1942 and their 12 descendants; right? 13 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 14 Q: Anybody other than those people have 15 an ownership interest in the lands, in your view, in 16 1995? 17 A: Gees, I really never got a chance to 18 look at all the paperwork, to tell you the truth. I'm 19 still working on that, like, still gathering up things 20 like old Council Minutes that I -- I remember reading in 21 the past. 22 There were some people that were granted 23 permission to reside on Stoney Point and the same thing 24 for Kettle Point, I remember there was different families 25 that were allowed to reside there under -- under the
2201 Council's direction, as to, you know, you had to -- you 2 had to state that they were going to be of good behaviour 3 and stuff like that and... 4 Q: So, then, in 1995, it would have 5 possible -- it would have been possible then, in at least 6 in theory, that there might have been some other people, 7 apart from the -- the members of the uprooted families 8 and their descendants, who would have an interest in the 9 Stoney Point lands, but you're not sure about that? 10 A: Well, to my best knowledge, I know 11 that there's -- there's a lot of men and women that are - 12 - that are married to possibly, I guess, other Band 13 members, non-Natives, that they too share that -- that 14 lineage. 15 Q: Okay. I take it you're not aware of 16 -- of any settled lists that would define who, at least 17 on the basis we've been discussing, has an interest in 18 the Stoney Point lands and who doesn't? 19 Is it something that hasn't been reduced 20 to paper as far as you know? 21 A: I seen several lists of people that 22 made, like declarations to be, like, descendants of these 23 families. I know that they've changed throughout the 24 years and I know, going back to probably around the, like 25 early '70's, that there.
2211 I guess I'm kind of positive that the 2 whole Kettle and Stony Point communities, along with all 3 the other ones, had basically had this understanding that 4 our lands are all getting smaller and somehow we -- we 5 have to have this collective view from, you know, even 6 dealing with the people in Walpole, Sarnia, Kettle Point, 7 Stoney Point, Muncey, Saugeen, we all have that same 8 thing that we -- it's -- it's, I guess, a sovereign thing 9 as to the solidarity part of how it is that you're going 10 to help one another to reclaim lost lands, I guess, I 11 don't know. 12 Like I don't know how to answer a question 13 like that, eh, like it's... 14 Q: Well, in 1995, did you have any sense 15 of how many First Nations people that were out there? 16 Whether they were living on -- on the lands at Stoney 17 Point or in Kettle Point or anywhere else, who had an 18 interest in those lands because they part of or 19 descendants of uprooted families? 20 A: You're getting pretty tough questions 21 here. I -- I'm pretty sure that dealing with my -- my 22 dad's family and -- and like my -- my aunts and uncles 23 that, you know, some of them, you know, married into 24 Kettle Point, some of them moved off the reserve, some of 25 them, you know, they have -- they have, like, children,
2221 grandchildren. 2 Like I got probably, I think they counted 3 something like over a hundred (100) when my grandmother 4 died. Those were just grandchildren and I -- I can't 5 recall offhand the amount of great grandchildren. I'm 6 pretty sure that some of those other families are pretty 7 close to about the same size. I mean -- 8 Q: But when you're talking about a 9 hundred (100) grandchildren, you're just talking about 10 one (1) family? 11 A: Yeah. And then I think that there 12 was something like twenty-two (22) houses at that time in 13 1942. So I never really seen like a -- a Band list of 14 members that of -- like today and can only imagine that 15 it would be probably -- probably upwards to maybe a 16 thousand (1000) maybe. Within my own family there's over 17 a hundred (100). 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now we come to the occupation of the 22 Park. As I understand your evidence, your evidence is 23 that the people who went into the Park on September 4th 24 didn't consult with you in advance of their doing that, 25 right?
2231 A: I -- I'm just -- I basically look 2 after my own self here and I -- I know that part of the 3 head men that I view as, the ones that are living on the 4 land with their families. It -- that it was my 5 understanding that like on this map here that this was, I 6 guess, the area in here and that going into the Park was 7 -- that part of knowing that our great grandfather Albert 8 Comonee and George Mandoka had lived there. 9 And that it was -- it was very close to, 10 well, Fletcher, meaning my uncle, who was just a young 11 guy that had passed away that he was buried near our 12 great grandfather. And those are the types of things 13 that I know that some of those families that were there, 14 they had, you know, I guess an understanding the same as 15 me and a lot of them are older than myself, that maybe 16 they have more information. 17 I -- I always grant that part of -- of, 18 you know, the age of a person who usually has a lot more 19 knowledge. I can't really explain, like, other than 20 myself knowing that my great grandfather and uncle were 21 buried there that that's reason for me for having the 22 understanding that that land had belonged to the people 23 of Stoney Point. 24 Q: Okay. But let me just come back to 25 my -- my question which was pretty narrow. My
2241 understanding of your evidence, so far, is that the 2 people who went in and occupied the Park on September 4th 3 did not consult with you before they did that on 4 September 4th, right? 5 A: I -- I was -- I watched it happen. 6 Q: Right, I understand. 7 A: I watched it happen and I wasn't 8 about to go and say you got to ask me or whatever. I 9 watched it happen. 10 Q: Right, but they didn't ask you, 11 right? Before? 12 A: They won't ask me they just -- I 13 think I told you, I watched it happen. I didn't -- I was 14 up on the dune and I seen it right before my eyes happen. 15 And I -- I didn't go around canvassing, is this what 16 you're going to do or is that what you're going to do or 17 whatever. 18 I -- I have no knowledge of what was 19 happening. But it took place and it happened for a 20 reason. I don't know why. I just -- 21 Q: To your knowledge, did the people who 22 went in and occupied the Park on September 4th consult 23 with members of uprooted families or their descendants 24 who lived away from the Stoney Point lands before they 25 made that decision and took that action to take the Park?
2251 A: I don't know. 2 Q: Do you have -- perhaps you -- you can 3 help me on this. At the time the Park was occupied, 4 about how many First Nations people were living on the 5 Stoney Point lands, in a rough estimation? 6 A: Gees, I think -- I think old Rose 7 probably got about, maybe, thirty (30) in her family that 8 were -- you know, give or take a half a dozen. On a -- 9 on a -- on a weekend I think -- I think she used to have 10 her whole family there. 11 Myself, I can recall brothers and sisters 12 that were there. I -- I can't really put a number on it. 13 I know that in -- in the -- in the area when they -- when 14 they lived out on the ranges, I know that that used to be 15 pretty close to a hundred (100). 16 And then some of them had, like, younger - 17 - younger children and they had houses elsewhere that -- 18 I know that some of them had to take the kids because, 19 you know, they -- they needed to be a little warmer so 20 they -- I don't think they left to never come back. I 21 think they -- they had to, I guess, seek out some warmer 22 housing for the purposes of having younger kids. 23 Q: Okay. I was trying to get a sense, 24 if you could give it to me, of how -- how big, in terms 25 of numbers, the occupying community of First Nations
2261 people was at -- at the -- the Army Camp at the time the 2 Park was occupied. 3 And you're telling me that's too difficult 4 to put a number on or is there a rough number? 5 A: I -- be safe to say about a hundred 6 (100) I guess. 7 Q: And to your knowledge, did all of the 8 people who were -- all the First Nations people who were 9 living on the Stoney Point lands at the time the Park 10 became occupied, participate in that occupation of the 11 Park, or were there some who didn't? 12 A: I'm -- I'm pretty sure that there was 13 -- there was a lot of them that went in there because 14 there was -- there was a lot of them that attended that 15 feast that they had. And I, again I'm -- I'd have to say 16 around a hundred (100), I guess. 17 Q: So, to your recollection, were -- 18 were there any First Nations people residing on the 19 Stoney Point lands in early September of 1995 who did not 20 participate in the occupation of the Park? 21 A: I think so, yeah. 22 Q: You think there were some? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: About how many did not participate? 25 A: Gees, I don't know, probably -- I
2271 know that there was a lot of them that were being moved 2 out, like, for, I guess that -- I guess that feeling of - 3 - of something happening. I think there was some -- some 4 women that were taking the children out. 5 I don't know a headcount on how many had 6 moved out, but I -- I do know that after that happened, I 7 know that there was a lot that moved back in. So I don't 8 really -- I don't really know. 9 Q: Okay. But when -- when you talk 10 about people moving out, you're -- you're talking about 11 people who were in the Park in the first day or two (2) 12 of the occupation, the first two (2) or three (3) days, 13 and who left the Park at some point in that early phase? 14 A: What I -- what I was getting at was 15 there was families that -- that had, like, I remember 16 some of the Elders at this feast and some of them had 17 spoke that, you know, that they were expecting their 18 entire families to be there. But some of them, they -- 19 they got up and spoke that they -- they couldn't make it 20 there. 21 And, like, to me, I was -- I was there on 22 behalf of my family and that was -- I think I might have 23 had a sister, brother, stuff like there -- some nephews. 24 Q: Okay, well I'm going to move on from 25 this point. What I'd like to -- to talk to you a bit
2281 about, though, is the litigation involving the Kettle 2 Point beachfront, like, the -- west Ipperwash beachfront 3 that, I understand was decided by a Judge in the summer 4 of 1995, before the Park occupation. 5 Do you recall that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. Well, if I can refer you to 8 your SIU statement, and there's a -- a copy at -- this is 9 the same statement you've been taken to before, there's a 10 copy at Tab 64 of the brief that's in front of you, it's 11 -- it's Tab 12 of the Inquiry materials, and it's 12 Document 1002523. 13 And -- okay. So, what I'd like to you is 14 just take you to the fourth page of that statement. And 15 it's the one that has the number 385 stamped in the top 16 right corner. Do you see that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And six (6) lines down there's 19 a sentence that starts in the -- the middle of a column, 20 "It's the same thing..." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Okay. And so, it reads: 24 "It's the same thing what they did with 25 the beachfront at Kettle Point when
2291 they had this -- this real estate group 2 or developers come in, pay these 3 Indians to -- to vote on a -- on a land 4 lease and then pay them some more to 5 vote yes to lease it, and then to rule 6 later that we know there was 7 wrongdoings but we have to rule in 8 favour of the ones that are in 9 possession. And our -- and our people 10 knew what happened. Our people seen 11 what happened. And it's like, What's 12 that Park? The Judge ruled because 13 they were in -- in possession of the 14 lands at Kettle Point and that our 15 people took possession of the Park." 16 You see that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And so, does that help you? 19 Do you recall that in -- in that summer the Judge had -- 20 had made a ruling saying that the First Nations people 21 couldn't get possession of the -- the Kettle Point 22 beachfront? 23 A: I would like to see those documents 24 that you're speaking about because I haven't seen them. 25 Q: Okay. Well, all right.
2301 A: I know my facts that I have within 2 me, myself, is Morris George's great-grandson that -- or 3 grandson, that that used to belong to my grandfather. 4 Q: Well, I -- 5 A: So, if I make a statement in here, 6 okay, I'm basically telling you I was born into this, 7 okay, and I didn't go there basically not knowing. You 8 know what I mean? 9 Like, I'm still, you know, I got to go 10 down to the beach and I still got to see these -- these 11 new housing units that are being built on my 12 grandfather's land. And that I remember hearing my 13 mother telling me that there was supposed to have been a 14 -- like a hotel-motel type of thing that -- for -- for 15 the use and benefit of the Indians on -- on this -- on 16 this Reserve, that they were to receive annuities until 17 eternity. 18 And I see now that there's brand-new 19 houses built on that square piece of land that was left 20 vacant until this time where, I think it's in '95 that 21 that was part of my understanding that my grandfather had 22 -- at least was able to make that kind of clear, that 23 there would be these annuities paid til eternity. 24 Because that was, I guess, the way I was 25 informed by my -- by my mother who had a long time of
2311 dealing with lands that were stolen or sold or given 2 away, or I -- I don't know what the term is. It -- it 3 was made unclear to a lot of people as to what the 4 position of the Kettle Point Council was when it was 5 dealt with on that land, whether the issue of money or 6 the return of the lands, that was never made clear. 7 I don't know, I'm only speculating on -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- what it is you asked. 10 Q: Okay. I didn't intend to explore 11 with you the -- the details of that historical issue and 12 that -- that problem with the Kettle Point -- 13 A: I -- I was born into that one there 14 and 15 I'll -- 16 Q: I understand. 17 A: -- carry that wherever I go. 18 Q: I've got you on that. But what I'm 19 trying to do is -- is to understand what you were saying 20 when you -- you said these words that I've read to you 21 from your statement. 22 And what -- what I took from those words 23 is that you were saying that in the summer of 1995, when 24 the Judge ruled that First Nations people couldn't get 25 the beachfront back at Kettle Point, that first the Judge
2321 had done that because there were people who were actually 2 in possession of that beachfront. 3 And secondly, First Nations people took a 4 lesson from that, in that they then took possession of 5 the Park, in order to advance their claim to that Park 6 land. 7 Is that -- is that a fair understanding of 8 what you were saying in your statement? 9 A: Again, my statement that -- that I 10 gave to Mr. Wayne Allen, was on the date, let me see 11 here, what was the date here, the date would be -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross is 13 on his feet, Mr. Downard. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: My Lord, sorry... 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suppose 16 you're going to say the witness has already answered 17 that? 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, I'm going to do 19 better than that, Mr. Commissioner. And forgive me for 20 this My Lord thing, I'm just stuck with it. 21 Mr. Commissioner, very frankly, I don't 22 know where this thing is leading. I mean, we have seen 23 documents released by the government, for instance, 24 Volume 3, Document Number 1003947, at page 5 of 5, where 25 a Judge in 1997, is ruling that these people are the
2331 under colour of right. 2 And whether or not he understands one (1) 3 court decision and another one, I don't know where we're 4 heading with that. So my idea is, as far as this witness 5 is concerned, I think we can narrow it down to something 6 that he can really respond to, because regardless to the 7 -- to the answers he gave you, I don't know how much 8 weight they're going to carry. 9 This thing is something, in my view, more 10 for argument than it is for trying to extract from the 11 witness, something that goes down almost a legal channel. 12 Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Sir, the reason I ask 15 the question is because I'd submit that it's of interest 16 to the Commission to have an understanding of all of the 17 considerations or purposes that the First Nations' people 18 had in mind, when they took the Park, in September of 19 1995. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. PETER DOWNARD: And this gentleman 22 was a -- a member, I'd suggest, a prominent member of the 23 community at -- at the time, and the statement suggested 24 to me that the Judge's Decision on the Kettle Point 25 Beachfront, may have had an influence on the decision to
2341 occupy the Park, and whether this witness could -- 2 whether -- whether that is what the witness was saying in 3 his statement, and if -- if so, whether he confirms that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This 5 statement was taken in '95. 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes, it was -- it was 7 taken shortly after the occupation. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. PETER DOWNARD: And so I thought it - 10 - that might add to its weight, in terms of explaining 11 what was motivating the occupation. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 13 thought that's what you were asking. You're asking about 14 what he said in this statement, which was taken just 15 shortly after the incident, -- 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and what 18 he meant, or what he said. 19 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 21 that's a fair question. Does anybody have any comments? 22 By Counsel? No. Carry on. I don't know how much more 23 you need to do on it, but -- 24 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I might -- I might 25 have my answer.
2351 2 CONTINUE BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 3 Q: But, to your recollection, you were 4 saying earlier, possession is nine-tenths of the law. 5 A: I was saying earlier also too, that I 6 was born into it. 7 Q: You were, you were, indeed. Was it 8 your understanding that one (1) of the reasons, in 9 September of 1995, that people took the Park, was that it 10 would strengthen their land claim, if they were actually 11 in possession of the Park? 12 A: I can only speak for myself, I can't 13 speak for those other people. 14 Q: What was your understanding at the 15 time? 16 A: My understanding to me was they were 17 going do this and gees, I hope that nobody gets hurt or, 18 you know, that I know that all -- all the time that I was 19 involved with the Military Base was done through the 20 political realm of those things, and that we had numerous 21 attempts throughout, I think, from 1942 up to date, that 22 I basically followed the footsteps of my -- my dad and my 23 mom. 24 I used to -- the land that you talk about 25 on Kettle Point was, like, my grandfather's land and the
2361 land that you talk about in Stoney Point was my 2 grandfather's land, and I don't know how many other 3 grandfathers I got to go through to get my point across 4 that some of these things were -- that you -- you -- 5 you're born into something like this and you can only 6 hope that, you know, there's a positive outcome. 7 To me, the land that you talk about was 8 something that my mother held very close to her and she 9 had also made those types of statements to me that 10 sometime, somewhere, somehow, you might hear down the 11 road, these lost lands get tabled and you might be able 12 to somehow share my voice if I'm no longer here. Same 13 thing with my dad. 14 Those were the types of things that, you 15 know, my dad went home in 1990 in a box and to me those 16 are the types of things that -- my parents had done those 17 things out of, you know, their last breath. 18 I, myself, I didn't expect what happened 19 to Dudley to happen. It was -- it was part -- like my 20 part to educate the area, the -- the politicians, the -- 21 the police, RCMP, you name it, the Military. I think I 22 was a part of that -- part of trying to do these things 23 in the most legal law-abiding manner and that I never had 24 any intentions of creating a standoff of whatever sort. 25 I really don't know.
2371 Q: Okay, sir, let me just put it to you 2 this way. It's early September '95. 3 Did you think it would be easier to have 4 the parkland for your people if First Nations people 5 actually took possession of it instead of making a claim 6 through whatever legal processes might exist? 7 Did you think it would be easier if they 8 just took the land and worried about the legalities 9 later? 10 A: Again, it's a possibility. It's also 11 a possibility that those people were to do those things, 12 I imagine, that, you know, what is documented as to their 13 whole territory that if -- if those were the wishes of 14 the day, that they'd go after their whole territory, but 15 I don't think that was so. 16 Q: Okay. And it was -- it was also of 17 practical importance in early September of 1995 that the 18 water treatment plant was in that Park. Right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you -- and you -- you told us in 21 -- in your evidence yesterday that there was some 22 suggestion from the Elders it would be -- be nice if -- 23 if you, and I quote, 24 "Look -- look after the Park because 25 the water treatment plant is located in
2381 there." Unquote. 2 And that was your understanding as to why 3 they moved into the Park; right? 4 A: I think that's a part of it, yes. 5 Q: Because if -- if that water treatment 6 plant or if the supply of water from the plant was -- was 7 cut off by non-First Nations people or whoever, then 8 there was no water for the Army Camp. Right? 9 A: I would have to say the built-up 10 area. I wouldn't say the Army Camp. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I know that when I first moved in 13 there I was told to -- to dig the old well out on the 14 homestead because the Army filled it in. Yeah, well, we 15 were -- we're still waiting to do that. 16 Q: Right. And was it a -- was it a 17 consideration that, to -- to your knowledge in early 18 September 1995 -- you may know, you may not -- whether 19 securing that -- that beach front in front of the Park 20 was another reason for occupying the Park? 21 A: Gees, I, myself, I had always had, 22 like, an understanding that, I guess, if the land at the 23 Military Base being adjacent to the Park and everyone 24 knowing that there's the burial ground in there, I think 25 it was a logical move on behalf of those people to do
2391 what they did. 2 Like, I can only speak on my own self. I 3 can't say that that's what their decision was because I 4 don't know. I -- I explained to you the -- the heads of 5 family had done things that I wasn't -- I -- I watched 6 them. I -- when I come here, I'm telling this Inquiry 7 that I -- I -- I watched them. What more do you want me 8 to say? I -- I was born into this I -- 9 Q: Just -- just -- just what you recall, 10 sir. And you've testified quite a bit about what one 11 could call the historical struggle on the part of 12 uprooting Stoney Point families to get the Army Camp 13 lands back; right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I take it it was your 16 understanding that -- well, let me put it to you this 17 way. When -- when Roderick George testified here, he 18 said that the purpose was -- of the occupation of the 19 Park, was to take back the Park land and keep it forever, 20 and that this was a consensus among the occupiers. 21 Do you disagree with that or do you agree 22 with that? 23 A: I myself, I have to agree with that 24 because I -- I had heard, you know, at these Locatee 25 meetings that my mother used to host every once in a
2401 while, that -- I'm pretty sure that -- and I think it 2 was, you know, their plan eventually to do that. 3 I don't know, like, their -- my mother and 4 my father are no longer alive to -- to give their 5 interpretation but I know that if my dad was here, my dad 6 would tell you, you know, that this has been long enough 7 as -- as a Park, that the people that were uprooted have 8 basically no land to farm, to grow their food, to 9 basically house their own growth, that I don't know -- it 10 was all of this -- this talk of how the Indian agent at 11 the time had, you know, dealt them this, I guess, an 12 understanding on how they were silently surrendering 13 their land, type of thing. 14 I don't -- I -- I'm still trying to figure 15 those types of documents out when I had this 16 understanding that, I think, the whole territory and the 17 whole -- the creation of ceded lands were to be 18 untouched. And that, I think, the way it is understood 19 to myself was it was a shared thing that the rest of the 20 land within the territorial boundaries that are listed in 21 those old treaty books, I -- I'm pretty sure that's the 22 way I understood -- 23 Q: Okay. Well -- 24 A: -- from my mother. 25 Q: -- let -- let me come back away from
2411 historical things to things you actually observed on the 2 evening of September 4th, when the people first went into 3 the Park. You -- you talked about how you were in the 4 marriage patch and that -- that you saw people going in. 5 And then I believe you said the other day 6 you were in the Park on the evening of September 4th 7 shortly after George Speck got his window smashed? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And when you got there, did 10 anybody say anything to you about George Speck having 11 gotten his window smashed? 12 A: Oh, everybody told me. 13 Q: What were they saying? 14 A: Just what you said. 15 Q: Okay. Did anybody -- and -- and this 16 was -- you were told that Roderick George had smashed the 17 -- the rear window -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- of the police cruiser? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. Did anybody express any 22 concern to you that Roderick George had smashed that 23 window? 24 A: Well, they told me about it. I -- I 25 never heard no concerns. I -- what I heard was that they
2421 were planning to have a feast and that was the -- the 2 thing that -- I know when it comes down to that -- that 3 part of the ceremony, that it took place on that sandy 4 parking lot, that that's the reason why -- basically went 5 into the Park, was the -- the Elders at the bay, that's 6 what they were planning. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I was there at the -- at the little 9 feast they had. 10 Q: And Roderick George told the Inquiry 11 that when he was in the Park he saw people taking a 12 refrigerator or an upright freezer out of the Park store. 13 Did you ever see anything like that or was 14 that something that was told to you during the -- those 15 first few days of the Park occupation? 16 A: I seen a -- a truck -- a brown truck 17 with a -- with a freezer on the back, but no one 18 explained to me I'm -- 19 Q: You didn't know where it came from? 20 A: Not at the time, but I found out 21 later. 22 Q: When did you find out? 23 A: After the truck went by. 24 Q: Well, okay, but I'm -- I'm asking you 25 when you found out where that freezer came from?
2431 A: After the truck went by. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I found out where the truck -- the -- 4 the freezer come out of the store. Yeah, that's what -- 5 I wasn't there, but I seen -- seen it go by and thought 6 what the heck's going on, and they said they'd be -- they 7 were already in there unloading. It's Rose Manning's 8 family that was busy loading up. 9 Q: So, they -- they were loading up the 10 -- the freezer into a truck and taking it away? 11 A: It was loaded up and it was heading 12 out when I seen it. 13 Q: Okay. Anything other than a freezer? 14 A: I can't recall. 15 Q: Okay. Did you have any concern about 16 that at the time? 17 A: Should I? 18 Q: I'm -- I'm not -- 19 A: I -- 20 Q: -- going to tell you one (1) way or 21 the other, I'm just asking you what he did. 22 A: I can ask questions, I guess, but it 23 doesn't serve nothing. I -- I don't know, like, should I 24 have concerns over a freezer? 25 Q: Well, of people taking appliances out
2441 of the Park store and driving away with them; whether 2 that was of concern to you? 3 A: I guess. I -- I don't know. 4 Q: Not -- not very much, though? 5 A: It wasn't mine. 6 Q: Okay. And during those first few 7 days of the occupation of the Park and I'm -- I'm talking 8 now about the period of time prior to the violence on the 9 night of the 6th. 10 During that period of time, did you hear 11 from anyone that the government or anyone might be 12 seeking an injunction in the courts against the occupiers 13 in the Park? 14 A: I -- I don't know of anybody within 15 the -- the area where I was, you know, knowing of an 16 injunction. I know that, like, all of those -- those 17 events that -- that happened at that night, I -- I sensed 18 the -- the eerie feeling as to me, my own self, that I 19 kind of felt strange about the fact that there was a -- a 20 councillor that was talking to the police and that going 21 down into -- into the Park, prior to Dudley getting shot, 22 that there was another councillor there that -- that was 23 -- just seemed kind of strange to me, that, you know, it 24 was -- it wasn't -- it wasn't a part of the political 25 realm of what I was attending to -- to the Military Base.
2451 How these people showed up and why they 2 showed up is beyond me. I -- I -- I got no knowledge of 3 them confiding in anybody, within the Camp, of coming to 4 their aid or their support. 5 Q: So when you talk about these 6 councillors, you're talking about the Kettle Point 7 councillor, Gerald George, who you've talked about 8 earlier in your evidence and also the Kettle Point 9 councilor at the time, Cecil Bernard George; correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And there's a -- a document -- 12 let's see. Yes, if you look at Tab 65 of the book that's 13 in front of you, there's a -- a document, its Inquiry 14 Document number 7000245. It's also Tab 39 in the 15 Inquiry's brief and you'll see that this is a -- a DND 16 report and it's dated November 3, 1995, and why don't you 17 take a minute to look at the -- the first page of -- of 18 that and that's -- and I'm only going to be referring to 19 the first page, the other pages deal with other subjects. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: So, have you finished the first page, 24 sir? 25 A: Yeah.
2461 Q: Okay. So, you'll see that in the 2 last four (4) lines to the bottom it reads, and I quote: 3 "Glen George and Les Jewel, both SPG.." 4 A: This is on November? 5 Q: Yeah, this is on November of 1995. 6 A: November 3rd? 7 Q: Yes. That's the date of the report, 8 anyway. And the report says, and I quote: 9 "Glen George and Les Jewel, both SPG, 10 spoke to the maint team..." 11 I presume that's maintenance team, 12 "...at the Pumphouse and stated that 13 Tom Bessette..." 14 I presume that's Bressette, 15 "....(KSPB Chief) had 'set them up' 16 with the OPP at the Prov Park and was 17 responsible for the fatal shooting 18 incident," unquote. 19 So, there's two (2) questions: First, did 20 -- did you say that or something like that to someone, at 21 or around this time, and if you did, what basis did you 22 have for saying that? 23 A: It's -- I -- I possibly could have 24 said that, and I guess the basis of me stating that is 25 that I had -- I had found a letter that had come from
2471 Indian Affairs that -- that Chief Tom Bressette was -- 2 was trying to find a place for the Stoney Point people, 3 through Indian Affairs, up near Sudbury. 4 And to me, I don't know who, in -- in 5 November of, what is it, '93 or '95? 6 Q: Right. 7 A: To me, I don't -- I don't really 8 know, like, who -- who this -- took this information, 9 Captain Smith maybe, I don't know. 10 But that's my understanding, that if -- if 11 someone like that, that's supposed to be an elected 12 official that -- that I'm supposedly a part of this 13 Kettle and Stony Point Band, possibly making statements 14 as such, I -- I didn't agree with hearing that part, plus 15 reading it. 16 To me, it's one (1) of those things, I 17 guess, that happens. 18 Q: Okay. But I guess what I'm trying to 19 understand is whether there's -- you had any other basis 20 at the time, in the fall of 1995, for possibly saying 21 that Tom Bressette had set you up with the OPP and was 22 responsible for the fatal shooting incident? 23 Is there anything else you can tell us 24 that would support your having made a statement like 25 that?
2481 A: Well, it's -- it's the same thing as 2 the -- as the Councillors that -- that showed up that 3 same night when Dudley got shot, that there was a -- 4 there was a letter prior to that event that -- that was 5 in the Forest Standard that -- that come from that same 6 Councillor, Gerald George, that was directing right at 7 the people within the Camp. 8 And to me, I -- I felt kind of basically 9 offended by that statement that if, you know, a person 10 that's supposed to be elected official, that, you know, 11 this -- this Council accepts these -- these, I guess, 12 responsibilities as they accept the funding on behalf of 13 the Federal Government, I guess. 14 I don't -- I don't know, I -- I'm not 15 really sure on how the buck get passed there. To my 16 understanding that, if you're -- if you're a member of a 17 Band and that -- that Council is, to the best of their 18 ability, to secure and protect you. 19 That's just my understanding. I don't 20 know if that happened, I don't think it happened. They 21 didn't protect my cousin Dudley, and for them to show up 22 at a time like that, just doesn't mesh with anything that 23 dealing with the lands at the -- at the Military Camp or 24 the Park, has any well feelings with a lot of people that 25 were inside the Camp or the Park.
2491 Q: Okay. Well, let me move to something 2 else then. You were saying, and now I'm going to ask you 3 about the -- the takeover of the built-up area on July 4 29th, 1995. You were saying in your earlier evidence 5 that you remember that like yesterday, right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Right. And I take it your evidence - 8 - your evidence is that -- that you weren't there when -- 9 when the people went in, but shortly after you went in; 10 have I got that right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And it was drawn to your 13 attention that there's -- there's been evidence of one 14 (1) of the people who went in driving a bus into the 15 drill hall doors. Harley George was here and he told us 16 about that. And there's evidence about him backing up 17 and backing up into a Military vehicle. 18 I take it that would have been brought to 19 your attention when you did go into the built-up area 20 shortly after the people went in there, at the end of 21 July? 22 A: I -- I remember washing his eyes out 23 down in -- in the Park. 24 Q: Harley George's eyes? 25 A: Like -- like, right on that road next
2501 to the Park, in -- on the Military beach. We went right 2 down and his eyes were burning. I washed his face off, 3 washed his eyes out. 4 Q: And that was Harley George? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And had you been informed that he had 7 smashed the bus into the drill hall doors? 8 A: I think that's what he was saying is 9 he got pepper-sprayed in the face. I think that's what 10 happened. 11 Q: Okay. Well, did you have any 12 concerns about this young man having driven a bus into 13 the drill hall doors? 14 A: I was having concerns about his eyes, 15 he couldn't see -- 16 Q: I -- I understand that. 17 A: -- and he couldn't breathe. And -- 18 Q: I understand that. 19 A: -- to me, I think this -- the bus was 20 still over there. I was at the beach with him, washing 21 his eyes out. 22 Q: Okay. So, I take it you -- you 23 weren't concerned that he had smashed the bus into the 24 drill hall doors? 25 A: Ah, gees, I was more concerned
2511 washing his eyes out at the time. 2 Q: Was there ever any subsequent 3 discussion among First Nations people in the built-up 4 area in the following days, about whether Harley George 5 had acted properly or improperly in smashing the bus into 6 the drill hall doors; do you recall any discussions along 7 those lines? 8 A: I -- I think I had discussions with 9 Captain Smith and Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone, but I -- I 10 can't recall talking about Harley. 11 Q: All right. And to turn to another 12 subject which followed, as I understand it, just a few 13 days after the takeover of the built-up area in early 14 August. 15 Do you recall it coming to your attention 16 around that time that Chief Bressette of the Kettle and 17 Stony Point Band intended to bring a -- a letter to the 18 Army Camp which would request that people from outside 19 the Kettle and Stony Point Band, leave the Army Camp? 20 A: Gees, I can't recall, I -- I remember 21 him making all types of attempts to stop welfare from 22 being issued to the people. I remember him and some of 23 the people talk about the, you know, the -- the food 24 bank, being told that -- not to give those people in the 25 Camp food.
2521 Gees, I -- I don't know how many different 2 attempts that -- that had come out of that Council. I -- 3 I recall a -- a letter that was sent to the Long house in 4 Oneida asking the people from Oneida to leave on behalf 5 of Tom Bressette. 6 I don't know, there's -- there's a lot of 7 things as to him serving people letters. I never ever 8 had the opportunity for him to ever come and meet me face 9 to face. So, I don't know what -- what letters were -- 10 were being given out or handed out or -- 11 Q: Okay. Well, just in case it -- it 12 assists you, let -- let me tell you that -- I think it's 13 fair to say that evidence before the Commission, so far, 14 has been given to the effect that Tom Bressette, on 15 behalf of -- of the Kettle and Stony Point Band, had a -- 16 a letter from the Band prepared which, in respectful 17 language, asked that people from outside the Band leave 18 the Army Camp area. 19 And that Chief Bressette and other members 20 of the council attended at the Camp to try to deliver 21 that letter, but no one would accept it and that they 22 left a stack of the letters and as they were driving 23 away, someone threw the stack of letters into one (1) of 24 the trucks that was driving away. 25 Now, did that incident ever come to your
2531 attention, that you recall? 2 A: Oh, gees. When was this? 3 Q: Early August of '95. 4 A: Early August of '95? 5 Q: First few days of the month. 6 A: I know there was a lot of things that 7 were going on ever since they moved into the -- into the 8 - the barracks and that's a possibility that that had 9 taken place. I know that, you know, people were -- I 10 know there was reporters at -- at one (1) time, there was 11 -- it just seemed like, to me, I don't know what purpose 12 him bringing letters there were, because we've never seen 13 any kind of support that what -- what the people in the 14 Camp were doing. 15 There was basically no -- I don't know 16 what the term would be -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- dialoguing with myself. Maybe -- 19 maybe Carl was talking to him. Maybe -- maybe these 20 other guys who had these titles, I guess, were talking to 21 him, but not myself. 22 Q: Okay. Well, let me refer you to 23 something and just see if it helps you a -- a little bit. 24 A: Do you have a copy of the letter? 25 Maybe I'll read it now.
2541 Q: Well, actually, it -- there's no 2 evidence that the letter ever -- ever came to you, but 3 what I wanted to refer you to was Tab 49 of the brief 4 that's in front of you, and if you look at, let's see, 5 the -- the seventh page under the tab and the Inquiry 6 Document number is 3000519. 7 These are some excerpts from notes of 8 Sergeant Bowman and this is -- this is actually the -- 9 the last page under the tab and you'll see that at the 10 top of the page it says, quote -- and this is just to the 11 right of the name, "Bowman". It says, quote: 12 "-- at CFB and met with G. George and 13 Les Jewel." 14 Unquote. Do you see that? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And then -- I don't intend to 17 ask you about the other stuff in that box until we get 18 down to the fourth last line and you'll see that it 19 reads, and I quote: 20 "Glenn George also stated --" 21 Are you with me? It's the fourth last 22 line in that top box on the page? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. Quote: 25 "Glenn George also stated Tom Bressette
2551 and his council were at the main gate 2 yesterday at about 3:30 p.m. Only 3 persons there were kids and Rose 4 Manning. They wanted to serve a letter 5 on them. Rose wouldn't take it; Glenn 6 laughed about this." 7 Unquote. Does that ring a bell with you? 8 A: So this is -- this is Charlie Bowman 9 that wrote this? 10 Q: Yeah. Do you -- do you recall this 11 meeting with Sergeant Bowman at which matters like this 12 were discussed? 13 A: To me I -- I -- I can't remember if - 14 - if I was there at that specific time. I know that I 15 had seen, I think it was Allan Frog (phonetic), I think 16 was the -- was the councillor that I think that I seen 17 and I know that I'm pretty sure Woody taped that, so if 18 you -- if you ever get a chance to talk to Woody, I think 19 Woody has that on tape -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- and that's, I think, the closest 22 that I came to that. 23 Q: All right. Well, between the time of 24 the takeover of the built-up area and the commencement of 25 the occupation of the Park in early September, did you
2561 have any desire to engage in discussions about the 2 situation of the First Nations people on the Camp 3 Ipperwash lands, with Chief Tom Bressette? 4 A: I'm pretty sure that I tried to do 5 that all through 1993, '94, '95, and to me, I -- I can't 6 recall ever wanting to talk with him after the fact that 7 -- that Dudley had been shot. 8 I know that I was still trying to create a 9 dialogue with the Chief-in-Council, I'm -- I was present 10 in the Chiefs of Ontario office, back, I think it was in 11 November of '93, along with Ron George, there was a 12 couple of the Elders and some of the younger people, that 13 there was a -- a working agreement that was being worked 14 upon. 15 And these things here were still even 16 being done, even though you hear letters from Gerald 17 George, in the newspapers, you -- you get letters out of 18 Indian Affairs, saying Tom Bressette wants to move all 19 the George's to Sudbury, even through all of that, we 20 were still trying to find a working relationship with the 21 Chief-in-Council in Kettle Point. 22 Q: Okay. What, if anything, did you do 23 between the time the built-up area was taken over, on 24 July 29th, '95, and the time the occupation of the Park 25 started on September 4th, '95, to attempt to build a
2571 dialogue with Chief Tom Bressette? 2 A: Gees, I don't know. I thought I was 3 working pretty hard at doing that, you know. I was 4 working over there in '93, about '91, '92, '93, I think 5 it was '92 and '93 that I was working at Kettle Point, 6 doing water mains, stuff like that. 7 And I kind of thought that, you know, that 8 the -- the moving into the Camp was a -- a thing that the 9 community as a whole shared those same type of views, but 10 I guess I was wrong in my assumption, that I thought 11 that, you know, that the Chief-in-Council was going help 12 the, you know, the people like myself in -- in occupying 13 these lands, but I had to find out the hard way. 14 And until this day, I still try to find, 15 you know, that part of where it is that I can somehow 16 find a working relationship that might bear some fruit, 17 so to speak. 18 Q: All right. Well, so, is there 19 anything else that you can tell us as -- as to what you 20 actually did, between the time of the takeover of the 21 built-up area, on July 29th, 1995, and the commencement 22 of the occupation of the Park, on September 4th 1995, to 23 build a dialogue with Chief Tom Bressette? 24 Is there anything else that you recall? 25 A: Oh gees, give me -- you'll have to
2581 give me a moment. 2 Q: Just -- just if there -- if there was 3 some -- if there was some event -- yes, between July 4 29th, 1995 and September 4th, 1995. 5 A: Gees, I'm kind of -- I'm kind of lost 6 for -- for that, like I -- I know that I -- I've done 7 things in the past that, you know, I -- I was travelling 8 to Toronto to, you know, to try and find some kind of 9 mechanism, some type of funding for legal representation, 10 there -- there was a lot of time and effort that -- that, 11 you know, that I -- I had put into this from '93 right on 12 up to that time. 13 And, again, it's -- it's one (1) of those 14 things that's tough to do when you're, you know, you're - 15 - you're being looked at for, you know, outstanding 16 warrants and stuff like that, that I can only do so much 17 and I'm not Superman. 18 To me, I tried my best to, you know, to 19 keep, like, my family informed on -- on what was 20 happening, but I kind of take it as, you know, like when 21 you read things in the -- in the newspaper that are 22 coming from his Council, and you -- and you take things 23 from the -- the Chief of that Council as to wanting to 24 find you a place up near Sudbury, I don't know -- I don't 25 know how it is I -- I -- I -- I kind of must have
2591 exhausted my -- my attempts there so, and you know it's 2 like -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- I -- I -- I'm lost here, like -- 5 Q: Okay. Well, there's -- there's just 6 -- I'm going to move on then. There's just two (2) more 7 subjects I want to ask you about. One (1) is the 8 allegation of a helicopter shooting in July of 1993. 9 You've already testified that you are 10 aware that there's an allegation that that had happened 11 at that time, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right. And what was the response 14 within the occupying community, at the time, to this 15 allegation that a Military helicopter had been shot? 16 A: There was things that we had done, 17 like, you know, like, they -- they come in. Like -- 18 like, for some reason I -- I can't remember hearing shots 19 being fired. I -- I hear, you know, the sound that a 20 helicopter makes and you multiply that by four (4). It's 21 pretty tough to hear those things. 22 To me, I know that a lot of things, again, 23 were -- were happening. There was -- there was cars that 24 were being parked on the road. There was people that 25 were coming and going that had reported seeing these --
2601 these cruisers in different places around the Military 2 Base. Gees, I -- 3 Q: Okay. Well, -- 4 A: Tons of things happening. 5 Q: Okay. Well, do you recall whether 6 people -- First Nations people, living on the Army Camp 7 lands at the time, attempted to investigate this 8 allegation of a helicopter being shot? 9 A: Again, I don't know of too many 10 people that wanted to go and look for the helicopter to 11 have a look at it. I know that myself, I, you know, I 12 was busy myself trying to find out, you know, if in such, 13 these things had really happened. 14 I know that the people, including my -- my 15 family, my -- my sisters, you know, my -- my cousins had 16 trailers and -- and other -- other dwellings that, you 17 know, the -- the police had, you know -- we -- we gave 18 them access to, you know, to look for these things. 19 And only to find they trashed these -- 20 these trailers and stuff like that that -- I guess it's 21 one (1) of those things that when you allow -- when you 22 allow them to -- to help conduct in a -- in a search for 23 weapons like that, that you -- you -- you get, I guess 24 you -- you got to watch them, I guess, I -- I don't know. 25 Alls I know is I had to deal with a bunch of angry people
2611 because their -- their buildings and their trailers were 2 trashed. 3 Q: Okay. Do you recall anything else, 4 though, about anything that was done among the First 5 Nations people at the Army Camp lands to attempt to 6 investigate whether this had happened and whether someone 7 who was living on -- on the Army Camp lands had shot the 8 helicopter? Do you recall anything else? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. And the last thing I want to 11 ask you about is a document that's at Tab 62 of the brief 12 that's in front of you and this is Inquiry Document 13 1002051. And it's a document that starts at the fourth 14 page under the tab and it's headed, "Aazhoodena" and it 15 bears a date, September 1995. Do you see that? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And if you turn over four (4) pages, 18 you'll see at the bottom this document is signed, "Glenn 19 M. George, spokesperson, Aazhoodena Stoney Point 20 Territory." Do you see that? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. So, are you familiar with this 23 document? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: What is this document?
2621 A: This is a document that I'm pretty 2 sure -- I know my -- my sister Mars (phonetic) and my 3 cousin Barb Bressette had kind of like gathered up some 4 of these things that happened and that were being, I 5 guess, distributed to whoever cared to read them, I 6 think. 7 Q: That was in September 1995 in the 8 period after the shooting? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did you write this document? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Did you read this document 13 before it was distributed to the public? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Because there's -- there's just 16 some passages in here about the -- the history of the 17 Aazhoodena people that I had trouble understanding, and 18 maybe you can help me to understand it and maybe you 19 can't. 20 At the -- the second page of the document 21 you'll see there's a heading, "Chronology of Events"? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you'll see there's a reference, 24 towards the top of the page, to the year 1936; you see 25 that?
2631 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And it reads, and I quote: 3 "One thousand three hundred and thirty- 4 three (1,333) acres of Aazhoodena was 5 leased to the military for a period of 6 ten (10) years or until World War II 7 was over, for one dollar ($1), and was 8 then to be returned to the People. 9 This tract of land was later to be the 10 site of the murder of Anthony O'Brien 11 Dudley George. This area is directly 12 adjacent to the existing Stoney Point 13 Nishnawbe territory." 14 Now, you -- you weren't the author of this 15 document but you read it before it went out? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did you have an understanding at the 18 time as to what the one thousand three hundred and 19 thirty-three (1,333) acres were? 20 A: I think in 1936 that -- I can't 21 recall seeing a document but I remember hearing, like, 22 there was a -- there was a ten (10) year period that it 23 was adjacent to, like -- it's like the land -- I can't -- 24 I can't remember if it was below the ridge or if it was 25 from the ridge up --
2641 Q: Is -- 2 A: -- on -- it would be on the -- the 3 left side of -- facing the lake of Army Camp Road. 4 Q: Is this part of -- is this the land 5 that -- is the land that -- that's being referred to the 6 land that subsequently became the Provincial Park or is 7 it other land? 8 A: Well, I think it was this land here. 9 Q: You're -- you're referring to land 10 that's -- 11 A: On -- 12 Q: -- on the west side of Army Camp 13 Road? 14 A: Yeah. It would be like that the west 15 side there, I'm pretty sure I -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- I'll have to go and dig out my 18 papers. 19 Q: Okay. So, let me then move down to 20 where it refers to 1956. 21 A: I think this is the area in 1936, I 22 think, I -- I'll have to go and check, I don't know -- 23 Q: Well, it's just -- I'm just asking 24 what your understanding was at -- at the time as to what 25 was being referred to in this document, you know, when --
2651 when the document was published, in September of '95. 2 Anyway, I think -- I think we -- we have 3 that. That was your understanding at the time, right, 4 that it was this land to the -- the west of Army Camp 5 Road? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And then further down the page 8 there's just a reference to 1956; do you see that? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And the document says that, quote: 11 "Ipperwash Provincial Park was moved 12 from the 1936 leased land to the 13 appropriated land of 1942 onto a sacred 14 burial ground of the Aazhoodena 15 people." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And it says: 19 "This land was repossessed by the 20 Aazhoodena people on September 4, 21 1995." 22 Okay? Now, when you read this document, 23 and it was published in September of 1995, was it your 24 understanding, that in 1956, the Ipperwash Park was moved 25 from that land to the west of Army Camp Road to the land
2661 in the northwest corner of the Stoney Point square; is -- 2 was that your understanding? 3 A: I'm pretty sure that's, yeah, my 4 understanding, I guess, I think. 5 Q: All right. Well -- 6 A: I'm pretty sure. 7 Q: All right. Well, was it -- was it 8 your understanding that the land that was Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park, to your understanding leased after 1956, 10 was appropriated land of 1942; was that your 11 understanding in September of 1995? 12 A: I think that -- that the Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park was -- was created before that. 14 Q: Right. Okay. That's why this 15 paragraph puzzled me a little bit. 16 A: It puzzles me too. 17 Q: Okay. Well, with that, Mr. George, 18 thanks very much for answering my questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. It's twenty to 5:00, but do you have some 21 questions? 22 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: No, I don't. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 24 have any questions? 25 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I don't.
2671 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we're up 2 to Mr. Ross, and I presume you would prefer that we wait 3 until tomorrow morning? 4 MR. DONALD WORME: And there may well be 5 a bit of re-exam as well, Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Re- 7 examination as well? So, do you have any questions, Mr. 8 Ross? 9 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, yes, yes, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you don't 12 want to start now? 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Absolutely not, Mr. 14 Commissioner. At my age I need to sleep. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think the 16 witness needs a rest. We will adjourn now until nine 17 o'clock? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9:00 a.m. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until nine 20 o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank you very much. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 22 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, February the 3rd, at 23 9:00 a.m. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 4:44 p.m.
2681 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 _________________________ 9 Wendy Warnock 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25