11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 1st, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Annie Leeks ) 3 4 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 5 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 6 Julian Roy ) 7 Clem Nabigon ) 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) (np) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) 21 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Sworn 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 7 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 242 9 10 11 Certificate of Transcript 249 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 4 P-139 Four (4) poloroid photographs, 94 5 dated July 19/93; taken by 6 Scott Ewart, location - 7 Stoney Point. 8 9 P-140 Document No. 1002409, page 13 map of 117 10 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 11 Witness Glenn George, Feb 01/05 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. Good morning. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr. 9 Commissioner. The Commission calls the next witness, Mr. 10 Glenn George. Mr. George advises that he would be sworn 11 by the alternate oath. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. George. 14 MR. GLENN GEORGE: Good morning. 15 16 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE (MANDOKA), Sworn: 17 18 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: When you say, Miijwetch, I take it 20 that that means "thank you in your language? 21 A: That's one (1) of the things that 22 you're -- you're taught as a youngster, to be thankful. 23 Q: All right. Glenn, your -- just in 24 terms of the spelling of your name, it's G-L-E-N-N? 25 A: Yes.
81 Q: Because I've seen it spelt a variety 2 of different ways. 3 A: Two (2) N's. 4 Q: Two (2) N's? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And, Mr. George, your date of birth 7 is the 29th of March 1962? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That would make you forty-two (42) 10 years of age at this moment? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. You are -- you are 13 married and have three (3) children? 14 A: I have three (3) children but I'm not 15 married. 16 Q: You have a partner? 17 A: Yeah, I have a partner. 18 Q: All right. Fair enough. I 19 understand that your father was the late Dan George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Your mother was the late Melva 22 George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And just so I understand correctly, I 25 also understand that your folks had lived, at least for
91 part of their time, at the Kettle Point community? 2 A: Yes, they did. I'd like to add too 3 that in a lot of the things within the past where -- 4 where they used to ask that same question, that it was 5 always -- you'd always get a look because my mother was a 6 George and my father was a George; so I just wanted to 7 add that. 8 Q: Oh, I see. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Your mother was involved in the 11 government, if I can put it that way, of the Kettle Point 12 First Nation. She was a Band councillor. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. And I understand, Mr. 15 George, that one of her portfolios would have been to 16 look after land issues? 17 A: Yeah. It was the land claims 18 portfolio that she was given. 19 Q: A land claims portfolio. Now, that - 20 - did that include, on behalf of -- of the Kettle and 21 Stony Point First Nation, making a claim in relation to 22 the Stoney Point lands, that is to say those lands that 23 were appropriated by the Federal Government in 1942, 24 pursuant to the War Measures Act? 25 A: Yes, they were. I think they might
101 have used the term, "Camp Ipperwash" at -- on the 2 document. 3 Q: All right. But that's something that 4 your mother was involved with during the time that she 5 acted in an official capacity, as part of the band? 6 A: Yes, it was. Yeah. 7 Q: And I take it that you would have 8 become aware of some of the land issues by virtue of that 9 as well as by virtue of the fact that your father, Dan 10 George, was active in seeking the return of those lands? 11 A: Yes, he was. There's -- there's that 12 part of -- my grandfather, like my namesake, Morris 13 George, had also owned land on the West Ipperwash, which 14 is the beach on Kettle Point that was taken away too in 15 the -- the same type of dealings. 16 Q: I see. And I understand that that 17 was subject to some litigation or a formal land claim 18 that was -- that was eventually dealt with? 19 A: Hmm hmm. Like, they -- they always 20 spoke of those -- they -- they had them in a list of, 21 like, they -- there was the Camp Ipperwash, West 22 Ipperwash. They had Eniskillen listed on there and then 23 they -- they wrote "lake bed" at -- at the bottom which 24 dealt with Lake Huron and the -- be like the Lake Smith, 25 Lake Burwell, that used to be the hunting grounds that --
111 I remember hearing those constantly time and time again 2 that these were, you know, the things that were taken 3 away without, you know, being protected or they weren't 4 allowed to be stolen, but yet, you know, they were gone, 5 type of thing. 6 Q: All right. Now, we've heard 7 something about some of the history of -- of this region 8 and I take it that what you are referring to now are the 9 ongoing comments that your family and others from these 10 communities, that is Kettle Point and Stoney Point would 11 make about their traditional lands. Is that fair? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Just carrying on with your own family 14 background, Mr. George, your father's -- your father's 15 parents were Robert and Laura George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I take it that your grandmother 18 was Laura Dunbar -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- by her maiden name? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Your mother's parents are Edgar 23 Shawnoo and Phyllis George? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: You have a number of -- of siblings
121 including Graham George? 2 A: Yeah. He's my oldest brother. 3 Q: Now, Graham is also known by the 4 name, "Fletcher," true? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. Val George? 7 A: Yeah, she's my older sister. 8 Q: All right. Marcia Simon, who we've 9 already heard in this Inquiry? 10 A: Yeah, she's -- she's, like, in 11 between Val and Cheryl. 12 Q: And Cheryl -- you're referring to 13 Cheryl Stonefish, your sister? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Catherine Mandoka -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- is your sister as well? 18 A: She's -- she's kind of, like, my next 19 -- kind of like -- they're all like mothers to me, so to 20 speak. 21 Q: I see. Dan George, Jr.? 22 A: Dan George, Jr. is -- is my brother 23 that -- along with all my cousins they -- they always are 24 there for you. They -- you know, sometimes you -- you 25 might be seen as doing some things kind of off-the-wall
131 or something like that, but it was always, you know, they 2 were there to back you up, to reaffirm that what it -- 3 what it was that we were doing was, like, as a family 4 thing. 5 Q: All right. Warren George? 6 A: Warren George is the same. He's -- 7 Q: Okay. He's your younger brother? 8 A: No, no. I'm the youngest. 9 Q: Oh, okay. 10 A: I'm the youngest and -- and they're 11 kind of like the, being -- being raised in the -- in the 12 -- in the setting that we were raised, we -- we always 13 had that -- that part of the close-knit family where, you 14 know, you -- you need something, your brother's there; 15 that's what families area about. 16 Q: Just so I'm clear, we've heard from a 17 Warren George in these proceedings and he was also -- 18 also went by the name, "Waldo". 19 Is that one (1) and the same? 20 A: No, that's my nephew, that's -- 21 that's Warren's boy. 22 Q: Mark George and Chris Wakefield? 23 Those are your siblings as well? 24 A: Yeah. Mark's my brother over there, 25 with the eagle staff. He's two (2) years older than I
141 am. 2 Q: I noted as well, Mr. George, when you 3 were asked by the Registrar for your full name, you also 4 gave a further name. I take it that that is a 5 traditional family name? 6 A: Yeah. George Mandoka was the name 7 that when they -- when they started taking lists of -- of 8 the people that were living on these lands, that was how 9 they determined who was who. They used his first name as 10 -- as how everyone else was going to be listed. 11 It's a -- it's a common understanding that 12 if your name is George, well then that's the first name 13 of your grandfather is George Mandokar, that's how it 14 came to -- 15 Q: I see. So that's the genesis of the 16 George family name -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- as you understand it? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And your sister, Catherine Mandoka, I 21 take it then that that is a -- a revision of the surname 22 to the traditional surname? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. Mr. George, I understand 25 that you have been employed in the construction industry,
151 primarily as a heavy equipment operator? 2 A: That plus a general labourer. I -- 3 I've been working at several different levels of -- you 4 know, the -- it's like the developing part of, like, 5 building roads, sub-divisions, sewers, waterlines. Same 6 type of work that my -- my father used to do. 7 Q: Okay. Where did this construction 8 take place? I take it it's not -- not here, is it? 9 A: I travelled Sarnia, London. I've 10 worked in Florida. I've -- I've worked all over. The -- 11 the jobs, when they get finished you tend to move onto 12 the -- to the next one. 13 Q: And are you member of a union hall? 14 A: Yes, I am. The Labourers Union out 15 of London. 16 Q: And I think we've heard a bit as -- 17 we well, from perhaps it was your siblings, Mr. George, 18 who testified about the work that your father had done in 19 this region and that some of his work is still apparent. 20 A: Yes, he was -- he was one of the ones 21 that worked on a lot of the roads. His -- his view to us 22 was, you know, it was -- it was -- it was a tough thing 23 to deal with knowing that you had -- how do you word it? 24 It'd be like ancestors buried around the 25 countryside and if you're -- you're going to build roads
161 then you -- you had to always make sure that you were 2 going to be busy digging up your ancestors as you're 3 building a road. And it was a thing that he -- he spent 4 time telling us, that it was -- it was for communication 5 purposes that he was building a lot of the roads. 6 And he used to make the comment to us 7 about, you know, like the telephones and all the 8 technology today still didn't match the -- the moccasin 9 telegraph of communications, eh; that sometimes the word 10 of mouth is still works better than, like, somebody can't 11 find the time to pick up the phone to -- to talk to 12 somebody. 13 Q: Mr. George, your father, as we've 14 been told in this Inquiry, was -- was very active and his 15 attempts to repossess, I think it's probably fair to put 16 it, the -- the lands that I think you referred to as the 17 Ipperwash Military Base? 18 A: Oh yeah, like, that was an ongoing 19 thing with -- as -- like with myself being -- being the 20 youngest in the family, was always, you know, Mom's going 21 up there, you'd better get out there and give her a hand. 22 Okay. You know, well, we got to do -- go do it. 23 And a lot of times I seen my parents, you 24 know, demonstrating on, like, a lot of times it would -- 25 the Military used to have this thing called LG Day where
171 the Lieutenant Governor would come into the Camp and 2 they'd have like their marching ceremonies. And they 3 used to hand out information to -- to the public going 4 by, like whoever cared to stop. 5 A little short, little briefing about the 6 history of the land and what they were attempting to do, 7 raise awareness about the land being taken. 8 Q: All right. And did your father ever 9 express to you what his feelings were, what his 10 sentiments were about the -- about the loss of the land 11 and -- 12 A: Oh, we used to hear everything. 13 Like, people, you know, used to try selling land in 14 Kettle Point and he -- he never bothered with that part. 15 He just offered to lend them money if they needed it. 16 And he said, I live over there, pointing towards the Army 17 Camp. 18 Q: Had you ever had occasion, Mr. 19 George, to accompany your father or -- or, indeed, anyone 20 on to the lands that were known then as Camp Ipperwash? 21 A: Oh, yeah, several times. It was -- 22 it was an ongoing thing that -- that, within our family, 23 we used to -- we used to always take our rides down to 24 the lakefront there, where, you know, my -- my dad and 25 uncles, we used to -- we used to fish down there. And a
181 lot of times we never -- we never actually drove down 2 there. 3 Sometimes we went down just the end of the 4 road and we took a boat down. We used to talk about, 5 This is where I used to live -- this is -- as a 6 youngster, this is where I used to, you know, have to 7 hunt, and stuff like that to, you know, provide some kind 8 of food for -- for dinner, and stuff like that, eh. 9 Q: What approximate age were you when 10 you first started attending there? 11 A: I remember my dad took me fishing 12 down there, oh gees, I think I was probably before ten 13 (10), something like that. But it was a constant thing. 14 Every time we drove by, like, it was, There's where my 15 house used to be, you know, like, that was it. 16 Q: I'm going to -- I'm going to put up 17 on the screen here, or have Ms. Hensel put up on the 18 screen, a diagram that's been marked in these proceedings 19 as P-40, Mr. George. It's -- do you recognize that, 20 first of all, that map? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And I wonder if you might just 23 indicate to us the area that your father would point to, 24 I think as you put it, that's where my house used to be? 25 A: There --
191 Q: There might be a -- a pointer there 2 somewhere, a laser pointer. Perhaps you can use that to 3 indicate. 4 A: There used to be, right in this area, 5 there -- there's a steel building out there. And there's 6 a -- there's a big oak tree off to the side of it. And 7 that's right where the old homestead used to be, right 8 there. 9 Q: Do you know how much land your father 10 had then, when you say he had a homestead there? 11 A: That changed. I -- I used to always 12 hear him say thirty-nine and a half (39 1/2) acres and 13 forty (40) acres. And, like, I think my grandmother and 14 my grandfather had I think eighty (80) or something like 15 that. They had, like, a property twice the size that 16 they were given out. But that was -- that was always 17 something to changing, eh. 18 Like, sometimes you'd have farm -- 19 farmland where -- like, my understanding was when -- when 20 they were living there, the saplings were the size of 21 their fingers. Like, a lot of the logs and everything 22 had already been taken. 23 So, there was, like, basically, you know, 24 wherever they -- they could find soil that was good 25 enough for -- for growing, whether it be oats or corn,
201 that's where they moved it to. 2 Q: Okay. And just for the record, I -- 3 I want to say that you have indicated an area immediately 4 to the east of the rifle range and to the west of that 5 that is marked as "Magazine" on the map -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- to the north of what has been 8 described for us as Highway 21. 9 A: Yeah. That's, again, the -- the way 10 I was explained, it was a wagon trail, that that road 11 belonged to us. I think they -- they called the other 12 road that -- that it would be travelling along there and 13 the other way -- 14 Q: Go back. 15 A: -- you take it up, there's -- there's 16 another road that -- that goes along here and there's a - 17 - there's a row of walnut trees; that was the Bluewater 18 Highway. And this -- this land was leased to those 19 farmers, that -- that was leased to them by the community 20 prior to the -- to the Military taking the land, hey. 21 They -- they used to talk about, at the 22 time, they -- they used to hunt rabbits, jackrabbits out 23 there. They used to try to go to the corner store to buy 24 a box of shells and they would only sell them one (1) or 25 two (2), simply because they -- I guess they were the
211 store owner, I guess. 2 But it was -- it was one (1) of those 3 things that they -- they said they used to -- they used 4 to have this old coat that hung out in the barn, that was 5 a full-length one, that they used to wrap themselves up 6 in it. And they -- they used to wait until more than one 7 (1) jackrabbit came out and because they only had one (1) 8 chalet and they wait til they lined up and then they'd 9 shoot them. 10 Like that was -- that was the way of the 11 day, I guess. 12 Q: Just so I understand your earlier 13 comment, Mr. George, the -- the suggestion I think you 14 put is that what is -- what is known as Highway 21 or has 15 been pointed out to us to be Highway 21 on that map -- 16 A: Yeah, that's -- 17 Q: -- in fact had previously been, did 18 you say, a wagon trail? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: That's right -- right there. That's 22 Highway 21 that used to run through the -- through the 23 territory and like, even this road here, like, you can 24 see -- 25 Q: You're referring to --
221 A: -- there was never a road there -- 2 Q: -- what's been described as Outer 3 Drive on the -- 4 A: Yeah, I think Outer -- I think Outer 5 Drive, this road here is maybe only maybe at the most no 6 more than thirty (30) years old. Not even that, I don't 7 think. 8 So it's just a new road, eh? 9 Q: All right. And so I understand this, 10 Mr. George, the relevance of that is? 11 A: It's along the lines of the -- like 12 the -- the part of the perimeters, I guess, that 13 sometimes those change. Like to my understanding, 14 there's -- there's lands up in that -- like in the area 15 up in here that were never given away, they allowed -- 16 allowed for people to live on. 17 And -- and the old people they -- they 18 seen where cottages were encroaching on the Camp. Like 19 they -- they, themselves, have seen that. 20 Q: Okay. When you say lands that were 21 never given up, you're referring to what has been 22 otherwise described as unceded lands? 23 A: Yeah. Like the perimeters of the -- 24 the Base itself, those -- those were areas that the 25 Military was supposed to, kind of like, restrict entry.
231 That's what they were telling our people that it was 2 restricted entry. 3 But yet you seen development happen out 4 here in this area. 5 Q: Is there development in that area 6 now? And you're indicating, Mr. George, the area to the 7 north along the lakeshore -- 8 A: Yeah, it'd be like the -- 9 Q: -- of the inland lakes -- 10 A: -- north-east -- the north-east 11 corner of the property. Like, in that area right there. 12 Q: Okay. So west of Outer Drive along 13 the lakeshore? 14 A: That's like -- I guess it's west, 15 because to my understanding, like, from -- from this area 16 here to that area is due north. It's kind of -- 17 Q: And I recognize that that is not a 18 true north/south and I -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- think we've been using those 21 directions in an attempt to avoid saying northeast or 22 northwest -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and such -- 25 A: It's -- it's kind of like a -- this
241 is north from this point. Like that. That's like due 2 north. 3 Q: Okay, fair enough. For the purposes 4 of describing it though, you have indicated that there 5 was development encroaching on, I think you -- you 6 confirmed, unceded land, or at least suggest that that is 7 unceded land to the west of Outer Drive along the 8 lakeshore? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. You've indicated earlier, 11 Mr. George, that your father would take you fishing and 12 perhaps you would accompany others along the lakeshore. 13 Is that the same area that you're referring to? 14 A: All along here. They used to fish 15 around this little reef here. There was a lot of fishing 16 that went on right at the end of this road. I remember 17 as a -- as a young guy, my uncle -- he's still alive. 18 Uncle Cabbage used to -- he's a big man. 19 He used to throw his old boat right in the back of the 20 truck and let's go. We'd set a couple of nets right off 21 the end of that road and that would be like just prior to 22 the freeze up in the winter time, eh. 23 We never took a motor, we just rode out 24 and we were only -- you know, twenty (20) feet off the 25 shore in three (3) feet of water to about six (6) feet of
251 water. You know, we -- we had a truck full of fish just 2 in like two (2) nets. 3 Q: When you say Uncle Cabbage, did he go 4 by another name? 5 A: Calvin was his name. He's one (1) of 6 the ones in our family that's been overseas and come 7 back. 8 Q: When you say, "overseas," you mean as 9 -- as a Military person, as a soldier? 10 A: Yeah. Yeah, he's a -- I guess the 11 term -- one (1) of the warriors. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: It's -- it's a thing where I guess 14 where you -- you live it, you -- you see it, you breath 15 it. Sometimes you've got to go, yuck, because it -- you 16 almost taste that thing called war, eh? And it's the way 17 they viewed it to us. 18 Q: And speaking of war, Mr. George, we 19 are told that during a war, that that land was then 20 converted to the Military reserve, as it's now depicted-- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- and I'm assuming that you were 23 told something about that? 24 A: Well, I was told -- 25 Q: What can you tell us about that?
261 A: What -- what I was told was that, you 2 know, the -- the things that directly happened in my 3 family was my Uncle Tom and my Uncle Bruce had enlisted 4 into the Military. 5 And -- and there was -- there was a lot of 6 things prior to 1942 when they actually moved those 7 people out that they made several attempts to have legal 8 advice hired to represent their -- their -- their cause 9 as to, you know, they -- they didn't feel like the land 10 should be taken for that purpose because of the -- the 11 understanding that the -- our people have is, you know, 12 the -- the great law of peace is something that I think - 13 - to the general public they -- they -- they think of the 14 war cause as being something, you know, that everybody's 15 got to contribute. 16 But to -- to us that was kind of 17 forbidden, that we could only talk of peace; that we 18 couldn't -- we couldn't be war-like. And that's kind of 19 like the understanding of that, that when you -- you grow 20 up here and, you know, that your -- your uncles have been 21 overseas to war. And it was -- it was a thing that they 22 -- they talked -- they were going to protect the lands so 23 that nobody can come and take your land and, you know -- 24 Q: Okay, but this land was nonetheless 25 taken. We've been --
271 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- we've been told that and that is a 3 fact. 4 A: It is a fact that -- 5 Q: And you were told what about that? 6 A: I was told that, you know, that some 7 day when the war was over that they were going to give 8 the land back. 9 Q: Okay. And who -- who related this to 10 you, Mr. George? 11 A: My dad used to say that. And my 12 mother always had the -- the -- the view that, you know, 13 that the West Ipperwash was -- was also taken. And that, 14 you know, like the -- the part within my family, all my 15 brothers and sister they -- they had been a part of, 16 like, those old locatee meetings where they used to talk 17 about how these different lands were taken and for what 18 purpose and why, you know. 19 And I remember constantly hearing them say 20 that it made them frustrated because they talked that the 21 beach land was unsuitable for agriculture. and they -- 22 they used to laugh about it because there wasn't no sense 23 in being mad because it was -- it didn't help nothing 24 either. 25 Q: Sorry, you said, "Locatee Meetings"
281 and you'll forgive me if I'm not pronouncing that 2 properly? 3 A: They called themselves the Locatees, 4 like -- 5 Q: Loca -- 6 A: -- my -- my mother. 7 Q: Okay, I -- I see. Go ahead. 8 A: They -- they -- they used to host 9 meetings around the reserve, different houses. It was 10 like a little social thing that they used to have, you 11 know, coffee cakes and coffee, tea, that kind of stuff. 12 And they used to always try and formulate some kind of 13 plan on how they were going to get their land back 14 through that system that's out there. 15 Q: Okay. You've talked about some of 16 your uncles that have -- that had, rather, joined the 17 Military, that had gone overseas to fight to protect 18 their land. 19 And -- and again, I'm -- I'm counting on 20 you to correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. George -- 21 A: That would -- 22 Q: -- in terms of what you said. Is 23 Clifford George one (1) of those individuals as well? 24 A: Yes, he's one (1) of my dad's first 25 cousins that, you know, that -- I don't know what the
291 term would be, I guess, warrior. Like, that's -- that's 2 the thing that everybody wants to talk about a warrior 3 society. 4 And that's the closest thing to a warrior 5 society that I have in relation other than my uncles 6 that, you know, the -- to go overseas and fight for this 7 great cause that seemed to have undermined their efforts. 8 Q: All right. Your grandparents, Dan 9 and Melva, had also had -- 10 A: My dad -- 11 Q: I'm sorry? 12 A: My mom and dad. 13 Q: Your mom and dad, pardon me, were 14 grandparents, I should have said, to Marlin and Kevin 15 Simon? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And they were raised by 18 your -- by your folks? 19 A: Yeah, they -- it was a family. They 20 were like my little brothers. I -- I didn't have younger 21 brothers, I just got older brothers, so they were like my 22 younger brothers. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Even though they're my nephews. 25 Q: All right. In these meetings of
301 locatees, as you've called it, and subsequently, there 2 were plans formulated to try to get some strategy 3 together to reclaim these lands. 4 A: Yeah, the constantly they did 5 fundraising. It was always a -- like a reminder to them 6 that -- you know, that work is something, you know, that 7 we all have to work towards at. 8 I think through time, some of those work 9 ethics have kind of like, I guess, paid off. But I think 10 in the -- in the same -- same breath there's always been 11 the thing of where knowing my family, knowing -- knowing 12 that some of them had tried, like, the part of becoming a 13 part of the policing services in the area that -- that 14 that was going to be somewhere along the lines helpful, 15 somewhere in the future. 16 I -- I looked at it back then that, you 17 know, that it's similar to going to war in another 18 country to protect your land that's here and then to find 19 out the -- the type of treachery that comes with it. 20 I don't know. It's -- 21 Q: Okay, but certainly your mother 22 wasn't prepared to take those kinds of steps. We've seen 23 photographs, for example, of her holding a vigilant, if I 24 can put it that way, sitting in a lawn chair somewhere in 25 the vicinity of the Army Camp passing out pamphlets to
311 passers-by. 2 A: Yeah. It was a ongoing thing, you 3 know. I mean -- 4 Q: And I understand that you were 5 involved in that as well as a youngster? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: You would deliver pamphlets to cars 8 that would come by. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And what was the message on these 11 pamphlets? 12 A: A lot of them was -- they -- they had 13 little briefings that said what was here before and what 14 took place during 1942 and how many -- how many people 15 had to be taken off their lands. They used to change 16 from year to year. 17 I know at one (1) time they put on there 18 that there was I think, six (6) like, young kids that -- 19 that, you know, because of the unavailable, like, garden 20 area and freshwater that they -- some of them got sick 21 and had died because of the move in 1942. 22 It was things like that that they used to 23 put on them. 24 Q: I see. So it was a -- it was an 25 attempt to bring to the public some of the misery that
321 was faced by folks as a result of the relocation? 2 A: Yeah. It was just a -- it was like a 3 -- a -- sometimes they handed out pamphlets, even, like. 4 Sometimes there was -- there was like maps like this that 5 were -- that were put on there that they always let it be 6 known that there was a, like a cemetery in the area in 7 here. 8 And there was -- there was a part of the 9 Park that -- that -- which in our family we -- we were 10 always taught about, you know, who was buried in there 11 and -- 12 Q: Well, let's just talk about that for 13 a moment, shall we? You've indicated that it was -- 14 there was an attempt to make people, the public, 15 understand that there was a cemetery and you've indicated 16 with the pointer to the map somewhere in the -- can we 17 say the middle of the -- of that land base? 18 A: Yeah. It's on the ridge. 19 Q: There would appear to be a road 20 through there just to the -- well, east of what's defined 21 as the dump? 22 A: Yeah. There's -- there's an old 23 trail that they got here, like, nobody hardly uses it. 24 Like just to walk down. But that mound has -- has always 25 been there. There's a -- like the old -- the old stories
331 of -- of where the mound is, it was always that -- that 2 old man, the warrior that was buried sitting up in the 3 mound behind it, like, facing the lake, so he could sit 4 up and watch over his people. That was -- 5 Q: And that's one (1) of the teachings-- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- is it? 8 A: Yeah, that's what we were told, 9 that's -- he's still there, watching out over his people. 10 Q: And we're also given to understand, 11 Mr. George, that your father was buried there in 1990? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And, in fact, that he was one (1) of 14 the first people to be buried there in, what's been 15 called modern times. 16 A: Yeah, he's -- that was his last wish 17 was, Take me home, and everybody knew where his home was. 18 Q: And did you know -- or did you know 19 how that was facilitated; that is his -- his being buried 20 in -- in the traditional burial grounds of -- of your 21 people? 22 A: Yeah. Well, he -- he was the one 23 that said, Take me home, and just-- all I did was ask, 24 you know, brothers and cousins, that the old man wants to 25 go home, so that's what we did; we took him home.
341 Q: Do you know what kind of 2 arrangements, if any, were made to -- to have that 3 happen? 4 A: I know that there's people out there, 5 like my brother, Graham, and some of my cousins and some 6 of my uncles that were involved in that, but I was -- I 7 just asked them; I didn't have to do that part. I was -- 8 I was involved with, you know, the part of looking after 9 the things with my mom and that, eh? 10 Q: I understand. You've told us that as 11 a -- as a youngster you hunted in those areas, you were 12 taken there to fish in those areas. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: We've heard from other witnesses, Mr. 15 George, that in the inland lakes areas that -- that that 16 is also fruitful ground for other kinds of gathering, 17 traditional medicines, somebody said hunting for morels, 18 that sort of thing. 19 Were you aware of any of that kind of 20 activity? 21 A: Oh, yeah, that was -- that's like an 22 ongoing thing. It always was regardless if the -- the 23 Military was there or not that the people always gathered 24 medicines and, like, the morels is always still being 25 done every year. And even -- even though our people
351 weren't living there I know that there was always people 2 that went in there to gather those -- gather those foods. 3 It's -- it's one (1) of those things that 4 -- that you might be able to take away the land, but 5 you're not going to take away the medicines, I guess, so 6 to speak. Like, the way of life that we were brought up 7 is -- is -- is that we had to gather these things and 8 that, you know, was -- it was one (1) of those things 9 that you -- you're comfortable with looking at them 10 rather than looking for them. 11 Like, say, if it's snow-covered, you got 12 to go get these things before the snow covers them up 13 because you're going to have a hard time finding them if 14 the snow's there, that -- that's the way of live. 15 Q: We've also heard, I think, in these 16 proceedings, Mr. George, from other witnesses that there 17 would be permits provided by the Military to former 18 Stoney Point occupants to cut wood, for example? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Were you aware of anything like that? 21 A: Yeah. As a -- as a young kid I -- I 22 was -- I was always the guy they sent in -- sent in to 23 the Band Office to go get the -- the woodcutting permit 24 that they -- they gave the people two (2) days to -- to 25 cut wood inside the -- inside the Camp.
361 And I know with my -- my dad and my Uncle 2 Abe and my cousins, we used to -- we used to have, like, 3 tractors with trailers and old trucks with trailers that, 4 you know, sometimes it was -- it was hard, like -- like 5 some of my nephews and that, seeing how we work in the 6 bush when you got to gather wood, you -- you had to get 7 it done in -- in that time frame of two (2) days to -- to 8 burn all year. 9 And they used to look at us as kind of 10 like, almost like, little slaves or whatever, but, you 11 know, we didn't look at it like that, it was -- it was a 12 social gathering for us to -- to go in the bush and, you 13 know, you -- you had tea. 14 If you wanted hotdogs or sandwiches you -- 15 you packed your lunch and you went to work; that was -- 16 that was the kind of, I guess, the work ethic that our 17 parents put us in. 18 Q: And moving beyond that then, Mr. 19 George, you talked to us about meetings that were held by 20 the locatees about devising strategies to reclaim the 21 land. We've also heard the title, "Aazhoodena". 22 Can you tell us something about that? 23 A: Aazhoodena is -- is a -- is a the 24 name of the -- of the community. Aazhoodena Anjibek 25 (phonetic) would be like this -- this here is Aazhoodena
371 Anjibek. Anjibek is -- is like, this is the little town. 2 Odena is town in -- in our language. They -- they -- 3 they always had that part of an understanding that there 4 -- there was always our relatives in Odena, Wisconsin, 5 which is a part of the -- the Bad River Indian Reserve. 6 That's kind of, like, across Lake Superior from Thunder 7 Bay. 8 And that our relatives that -- I remember 9 they -- they used to talk about an old story about, in 10 this area, where my great-grandfather Albert George had 11 loaded up my grandfather Robert George -- not my uncle 12 but my grandfather -- that they took him in a canoe and 13 they -- they went across the lake to -- to Bark River, 14 Michigan; it's near Hannaville. 15 Hannaville is -- we have a lot of 16 relatives there that -- he had been just a youngster when 17 they -- when they took off and he had -- went back as a 18 grownup and they -- they recognized him even though he -- 19 when he was there he was -- he was just a baby. 20 They had a thing that they talked about, 21 it was, like, an old man named Stan Cloud, that they -- 22 they went over there and they built the church in Bark 23 River. It's -- is identical to the one in Kettle Point, 24 that's the first -- the first building on the Reserve 25 there.
381 Q: Let me just interrupt you briefly, 2 Mr. George. When -- when you had described Aazhoodena, 3 you were indicating the -- toward the map with the laser 4 pointer, and I think you were pointing to the perimeters 5 of what is depicted in P-40 being the Ipperwash Military 6 Reserve? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Secondly, when you referred to your 9 uncle Robert travelling, you were pointing to the area 10 that's shown on the map as Stoney Point? 11 A: Yeah. It was -- it was my 12 grandfather -- 13 Q: Grandfather, okay. 14 A: -- who was Robert. At that time, it 15 -- it was a thing that -- my dad talked about they -- 16 when they went it was -- it was like a thing of, you 17 know, the safe travel moon, they -- they travelled 18 regardless, you know, like, it's not like a lot of people 19 view travel today. 20 Like, you got -- if you got a canoe that - 21 - that's, like, been made out -- out of a tree, then you 22 use that part of the water -- the spirit, you said where 23 you wanted to go, you basically steered the canoe, you 24 didn't paddle it. 25 That's how the spiritual part of how they
391 were able to travel so far was, you know, it was a 2 spiritual thing to them. 3 Q: The second part I wanted to ask you 4 about in terms of your earlier comments, Mr. George, you 5 had motioned towards, with the laser pointer, that area 6 in the upper northeast section of what you've described 7 as Aazhoodena. It's depicted on P-40 as the Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park. And you've indicated that there were 9 other burials there. 10 A: Yeah. My grandfather Albert George, 11 they -- they used to call him Kamoni (phonetic), that was 12 the name that I always heard. Like, I never met none of 13 my grandfathers. All my grandfathers have all went on. 14 But I seen pictures of them and I -- I've 15 seen, you know, like the part where I seen my dad looking 16 and he seen a picture of my -- my grandfather Bob holding 17 my -- my uncle Fletcher. And my dad used to always tell 18 me that, that little guy is buried in the Park. 19 Q: And did he say where in the Park 20 that he was buried? And I -- I'm assuming we're talking 21 about your Uncle Fletcher? 22 A: Yeah. They always talked about that 23 he was buried in that area where that water treatment 24 plant is. In that area. And there used to be people 25 buried all in different areas in the Park that.
401 Like, the way you look at it now, it's 2 flattened out but at that time there used to be -- the 3 way the dunes are. The dunes were, like, they -- they 4 had mounds in there, that our People were buried on 5 mounds. And that's the thing, they didn't bury them in 6 the, you know, the -- the swampy areas, it was on mounds. 7 And the same thing with -- with my dad, 8 where, for him to tell his story about his grandfather, 9 meaning Kamoni was my great-grandfather, that -- that's 10 the way he explained it to me, was that's where he -- he 11 buried his brother. 12 Fletcher was near where his great- 13 grandfather, like my great-grandfather was, eh? 14 And that's kind of like the thing that I 15 guess a lot of people don't want to talk about because 16 that's something that went on in the area, eh? Like to 17 hear how they -- how they taken the hunting grounds, it 18 was the same story. 19 When you're looking at the -- the areas 20 next to the Pinery Park, they had -- they had dug this 21 Cut River, which drained those hunting grounds, that was 22 the same thing that they had done was unearth some -- 23 some of my relatives that were laid to rest there. 24 Nobody really talks about that simply 25 because it's -- it's already done. It's already -- it's
411 history. You can't change it. That's the only reason 2 they -- they don't really talk about it. 3 They all know about it. But it's -- 4 there's somewhere along the lines of a mechanism to get 5 on with the future. And it wasn't like you just forget 6 that, it's -- it's like you -- you will never forget. 7 And you know, you try to keep that optimistic view that 8 someday the -- you know where -- where my dad always 9 proclaimed to be where his inheritance for me was, was 10 within there. 11 That's the -- 12 Q: So Aazhoodena is something that you 13 have had described to you as your inheritance? 14 A: Aazhoodena Anjibek was like I told 15 you, within this and then when they talk about in our 16 language, Aazhoodena Anjibek that's the whole territory. 17 That's different. That's -- that's no different than 18 Wheelgadong is Kettle Point. 19 Aanjonong is Sarnia, Bkegnong is Walpole. 20 Those are all different names. Geographically different 21 places. They -- in our language, there wasn't no 22 Wiikwedong and Aazhoodena. There was -- it wasn't like 23 that. They were always as one. When you're dealing with 24 that big picture, you know, that's the way it was. 25 Q: Just let me see if I can understand
421 you, though, Mr. George. You described your father's 2 teachings to you that -- of your inheritance as being 3 that area. 4 You've just marked the perimeters of that 5 area on P-40 with the laser pointer and that was your 6 inheritance as was told to you by -- am I correct in 7 that? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. And insofar as that 10 inheritance, you had taken certain measures, I take it, 11 with others in the footsteps of your parents to bring to 12 the public attention that that -- that there was some 13 rights or some colour of right or some interest that you 14 had with respect to that property? 15 A: Yeah, it felt -- it -- it's always a 16 thing when -- say -- say for instance, you go to another 17 community and -- and like -- in a area, like, we got 18 relatives on all the other communities. And it's like 19 you don't -- you don't go there and you know, cry your 20 eyes out and feel sorry because those people over there 21 gone through the same thing. 22 It's -- it's a thing of having something 23 and then somebody putting up a fence for you, either to 24 fence you in or fence you out. Our people never had 25 fences. And it's a thing that, you know, in -- it's like
431 a learned thing, like, for humour purposes you used to 2 hear them talk about the -- the younger brother, meaning 3 the -- the white guy, was -- he's them guys that build 4 bridges over dry land type of thing. 5 The Indians, they only built them over 6 water, like that's what you see today. You know, that's 7 kind of like how they -- they had viewed that, eh, 8 because I heard stories, you know, my dad and them used 9 to go to meetings and say in -- in Walpole and they used 10 to have to take a ferry across, before they had the 11 bridge, eh? 12 And that was one (1) of the things that, 13 you know, they used to find something humorous about it 14 to just be able to live with the fact that, you know, 15 somebody's building perimeters for them. 16 Somebody's telling them, no, you can't 17 live over there, you got to live there. And, you know, 18 it was -- it was the thing of the day that our people 19 knew that, you know, that in the -- in the beginning 20 these old agreements were -- they were only given the 21 depth of a plough. 22 Like I -- I heard that so many times, but 23 yet you see them digging these great big holes and gravel 24 pits and mining under the ground, like -- like to me, I'm 25 not going into that type of an argument, but that's what
441 I heard from my dad. My dad talked about that because he 2 worked in it. 3 Q: All right. And if I can paraphrase 4 you, you are talking about a traditional understanding or 5 a -- a First Nations understanding of treaty 6 arrangements. Is that -- 7 A: Yeah, it was -- it was like a 8 collective thing, that happened to all of our people, 9 regardless as to what reserve they lived on. They -- 10 they lived in -- in -- in Walpole, it was the same thing. 11 They -- they had lands that were shrunken down. 12 They had, you know, we -- we -- we have 13 the same thing here where -- where, you know, you're -- 14 you're given an area under an old agreement that it was a 15 -- a shared thing, that we were going to share our land 16 with these people and then the next thing you know 17 they're -- they're fencing all this land off. 18 And, like, to this day you look at this -- 19 this perimeter of land here on this map, and you go 20 across the road and one (1) farmer's got more land than 21 that. And to think of how it is that -- that, you know, 22 you -- you try and find out how did these perimeters come 23 to be and, you know, like I've -- I've travelled to 24 Ottawa. Like, I've walked to Ottawa, I've done all these 25 things.
451 I -- I went to look in the -- the archives 2 to find records and I -- I kind of wondered how come the 3 Council minutes of the Stoney Point Council were doing -- 4 what are they doing in RG-10 trial in Ottawa? 5 See, these -- these are the types of 6 things that, to me, I -- I -- I can only ponder what went 7 on in, you know, my -- my dad and my uncles and my aunts 8 and even my relatives on the other reserves that are out 9 there that, here we are today struggling to survive. 10 And, you know, the -- the things that we 11 had do to survive kind of make people feel, I don't know, 12 scared. But I don't think they can ever live with the -- 13 the fear that, you know, having -- having a might of an 14 army coming in to move you off your land. 15 Like, my dad was twenty-one (21) years old 16 when this happened. And that's, you know, a part of me. 17 Like I've heard that on and on. Like my mother was taken 18 away and put in a residential school. And, you know, she 19 was able to come back and do the things to try and help 20 regardless as what it is that they taught her. Like, 21 there was certain things that I used to ask of my mother 22 and -- and she used to give me the same look when I used 23 to ask my uncles about more. 24 They used to say, No, I -- I don't want to 25 tell you. I -- you know, my uncle used to have
461 flashbacks. He was a -- he was a sniper. He was -- he 2 was one (1) of those guys that, you know, was taught how 3 to, you know, defend his country here. 4 And then it's -- it's, like, here you -- 5 here you go where, you know, these guys are, you know, 6 they never -- they never got their promised care that 7 they were -- they were being told that, you know, you 8 would be given land, you'd be given money, you'd be given 9 all of these things. 10 My uncle, you know, he died with nothing. 11 The Military never -- never done nothing to help him. He 12 was -- he was one (1) of the ones that, you know, was 13 pronounced dead during the war. The Military sent my 14 mother a letter stating that Milford was shot and killed 15 in action. 16 And my mother wrote back to Calvin and my 17 Uncle Cabbage said that Milford was dead and then they 18 had some of the troops coming in in Piccadilly Square 19 where my uncle was playing darts and he seen Milford walk 20 by; he thought he'd seen a ghost. These are things that 21 happened within our family. 22 Q: Would it be fair to say, Mr. George, 23 that as a result of the treatment of your uncles, that 24 you've described as warriors upon their return, the loss 25 of the land base, your mother's relocation, that they
471 were frustrated; that they were upset by this? 2 A: Yeah, to an extent, but life goes on. 3 Like, my mother was one (1) of those ones that, you know, 4 she, I think, protected me to that part where she didn't 5 tell me what went on in -- in the residential school. 6 And I -- I don't even want to try and imagine, you know, 7 like a lot of horror stories there about, you know, what 8 took place to a lot of the children. 9 I don't think it's as bad as what happened 10 to my dad, but, you know, there's a -- there's a thing 11 there that my dad used to always, you know, say these 12 things, say if he was having a drink or something, that 13 he would always almost be in tears about that subject of 14 not having any inheritance for his boys. 15 Q: Okay. So he was frustrated by that 16 and he expressed that to you? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And do I understand you correctly 19 that your mother attempted to shield you from some of her 20 pain or frustration? 21 A: Yeah. I remember -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- I guess -- I guess it -- it -- it 24 started to come out more when they -- when they had wrote 25 this book about the mush hole (phonetic). And it was a
481 combination of, like, the school that was in Six Nations 2 that was a residential school that she had met a lot of 3 other kids and going through the same thing. 4 It was -- it was a tough subject for them 5 to talk about as to what happened and -- and I think that 6 some of -- some of that stuff that took place kind of 7 made them tougher -- give them a thicker skin type of 8 thing to... 9 Q: All right. And -- and just before we 10 leave this -- this area, you had told us about being onto 11 the lands as a child and engaged in various activities, 12 traditional pursuits, perhaps it can be described as; was 13 there -- was there -- first of all, was there fences 14 around that perimeter when you were a boy? 15 A: I -- I remember that -- that along 16 the front -- along the front there -- there used to be a 17 rickety old fence, eh? 18 Q: Okay. And you're indicating that 19 area adjacent to Highway 21? 20 A: Yeah. The 21 Highway and this here 21 was never a road there, so that was kind of like -- they 22 had a post. 23 Q: You're -- you're indicating again, 24 for the record, Mr. George, that which has been described 25 as Outer Drive on the western --
491 A: Yeah. On Outer Drive. And I 2 remember as a -- as a -- as a young -- young kid, this 3 here along -- I guess they call it West Ipperwash or Camp 4 Ipperwash Road -- that I remember as a kid there wasn't 5 no fence there at this particular time. 6 I -- I was here with my Uncle Abe and my 7 dad and my cousin Elwood. And they were -- I don't know 8 what they were doing, but we wanted to go into the -- 9 well, we used to go get stuff out of the dump, like nails 10 and stuff. We used to have to pick them up and take them 11 home and straighten them out because we were going to use 12 them to build a shed -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- I remember at that particular day 15 there was a -- there was a soldier there that was in a 16 green -- like a little outhouse thing. It had a roof on 17 it and it was -- there wasn't no door, but it had a -- a 18 thing where you could sit on, but he was inside -- 19 Q: A guardhouse of some description? 20 A: It was like a small guardhouse, yeah. 21 And I seen right there that this guy and my dad and I 22 just come off of this road and started driving in there. 23 This guy come out and he had a -- he had a gun in his 24 hand. And I remember my -- my dad and my uncle, you 25 know, they -- they're telling this guy that, This -- this
501 is our land. 2 This is -- this belongs to us, and the 3 guy, Sorry, I can't let you in there and I -- I seen my - 4 - my dad and my uncle get mad because this guy's telling 5 them that they can't go on the land. And -- and I seen 6 that -- I think it was probably ten (10) -- fifteen (15) 7 minutes, my uncle and my dad made that soldier cry and he 8 - he just basically said, You want to go in there, go on 9 in there, I'm not going to stop you. 10 Q: And why -- why was the soldier crying 11 as far as you could understand at that time? 12 A: Because he -- I think he knew about 13 the -- the burial grounds because there was stone 14 sticking up and he knew that. And he knew that, you 15 know, the people in the area, you know, didn't really 16 like to -- to get into confrontations of any sort. 17 It was just, you know, like, when you want 18 to go gather something it was -- it was always put to my 19 parents that you had to go and ask somebody. You know, 20 you had to go the Band Office and ask somebody to go on 21 your land because they -- it -- it was being taken away 22 from my dad, my uncle and his family and there's other 23 ones, like Clifford and that were stripped of this. 24 See, this was the type of thing that -- 25 I'm kind of lost for words, as to how you -- how you view
511 when you -- you collectively go and you want to gather 2 something and somebody says you can't. 3 Well, even if there was fences like there 4 is today, it doesn't stop people from entering there and 5 gathering whatever it is they need to gather, whether it 6 be food or medicines or, you know. Sometimes it's just 7 where some people want to go and -- and -- you know, 8 offer tobacco or visit, you know, even just to go and 9 look at the old mounds that are in there. 10 Sometimes it -- it helps them to 11 understand, I guess, that that's where we all are going 12 to go some -- not so much in that one (1) mound, but you 13 go back to where you come from, I guess, in the ground 14 type of thing. 15 Q: Aside from that incident that you've 16 told us about where the soldier had initially attempted 17 to prevent your father, uncle, and yourself from coming 18 onto the land, are you aware, Mr. George, of any other 19 Military protests of being on the land? 20 Were you ever told or to your knowledge 21 were your folks ever told that they couldn't be on the 22 land? 23 A: There was a lot of things that went 24 on. I -- I could be here for days to tell you. Like, I 25 used to play hockey in this town of Forest. You know,
521 all my brothers did, too. 2 And I remember as -- as a young kid, I -- 3 you know, we -- we went down to the beach down there. I 4 remember there was a guy by the name of John Clark, they 5 called him Captain Clark, that used to manage hockey in 6 this town. 7 And they had a minor hockey beach party on 8 -- on the beach, like right in the centre -- right in the 9 centre of the beach, like right in this area right here. 10 Q: Okay. You're pointing to the area 11 that's adjacent to the -- to the reef -- 12 A: Yeah -- 13 Q: -- what you've described earlier as a 14 reef? 15 A: Yeah, there's a -- that's a reef 16 there. Like my dad told me that when you line up Kettle 17 Point and Blue Point there's a -- there's a thing about 18 five (5) miles out from this reef, there's shoal. 19 You see, and that's where they used to 20 fish, because that was one (1) of the things that -- you 21 know, in the -- when you look out there today, that's all 22 you see out there is trap nets all around that shoal and 23 that's kind of like where -- where's our fish? 24 You know? They basically got it cut off 25 so that you -- you're lucky to catch that, you know, net
531 full of fish anymore because the commercial fishing is -- 2 is basically over-fished and they -- 3 Q: Do I understand you that -- that your 4 father had explained to you where traditional fishing 5 grounds were as well? 6 A: Oh, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: It was -- 9 Q: Go ahead. 10 A: The -- the whole lake is those things 11 that were to be protected under our old ancient agreement 12 that, you know, it goes along that part of the safe 13 travel routes that, you know, our people made agreements. 14 I think it might be called the two (2) row 15 wampum, where -- you know, like our canoes can travel 16 with their boats in every waterway, highway, never to 17 cross, never to meet, never -- we would never impose 18 their laws on them and they would never impose their laws 19 on us. 20 And that we would share this -- this 21 country. 22 Q: And we've had some explanation of -- 23 of those historic agreements, Mr. George, by two (2) 24 experts that were called at the very outset of these 25 proceedings. So I think we do have some understanding
541 and appreciation of that. 2 I wonder if you might be able to comment 3 upon the activities, then, that you were engaged in by 4 way of the -- you've indicated you have walked to Ottawa, 5 for example. 6 I understand that you were involved in 7 other activities, again in the footsteps of your parents 8 in an attempt to try to reclaim these lands. What sort 9 of things were you involved with? 10 A: That, too, was another long story. I 11 remember hearing them talk about how do you do this in 12 that -- that political realm, that's out there? And I -- 13 I heard them talk about, you know, they -- they seen old 14 agreements, the peace agreements, like the treaty, again, 15 where they -- some of them had listed the league 16 (phonetic) subjects, whether they were sheriffs or 17 deputies or bailiffs. 18 And these things all, you know, like -- 19 like, I -- I heard them talk about, Maybe we got to serve 20 them with an eviction notice. And they used the bailiff 21 to do this. 22 They made letters out again, which they 23 had done, you know, around early '70s, they wrote to all 24 the politicians, whether they were at a provincial level, 25 local level or a federal level, and we done that again.
551 We done it again -- we done it again after we physically 2 moved onto the land. 3 Q: Okay. Just -- just let me stop you 4 there. I want -- I want you to focus, if you would, 5 please, on the letters that were written to the 6 politicians, as you've just described. 7 What was the nature of those letters? 8 What was the intention behind it? 9 A: The nature of the letters were to 10 bring that part of -- of an awareness of a promise that 11 was made. It was a letter to kind of, like, rekindle 12 that old fire that our people were still waiting for this 13 decision. I think it was one (1) of those things that 14 they -- they kind of made it known that, you know, that 15 there's another generation. 16 Basically, being told the same thing, that 17 they're going to do these things in that -- that peaceful 18 manner, to, I guess, wait for the war to get over. 19 There was a lot of things that were done 20 that they -- they still raise money. I don't know if the 21 -- if the lawyers ever get the money but I know that they 22 still do their fundraising. 23 It's not like, you know, multi-million 24 dollar things. It's, like, have a little bake sales and 25 stuff like that. That's still the way they raise money.
561 And they -- they've done things where 2 writing letters to -- to the different local politicians, 3 you know, like, I remember Marcel Beaubien and all -- all 4 of them. They were all sent letters. Even Jean 5 Chretien, you know, it was reminded to him that he was 6 the Indian agent in early '70s that -- the Indian Affairs 7 Minister that -- that had made the suggestion that they 8 should give the land back to the Stoney Point people. 9 And to find, you know, he -- he went on to 10 become Prime Minister. Again, it's like so easy to look 11 away to -- to have this -- this power to grant such a 12 thing, but yet ignore it. 13 Those -- those are the types of things 14 that -- that, you know, like, when -- when you, as a 15 child, see these letters right in front of you, that, you 16 know, you -- you gain this hope of, Oh, this guy is the 17 Prime Minister now and he -- he's going to help get your 18 land back. And you find that things like that, they -- 19 they come and go, just as -- 20 Q: And the walk to -- and the walk to 21 Ottawa, Mr. George, what was the intention behind that? 22 A: The intention, to me, I was -- I was 23 kind of put on the spot by the Elders. I just basically 24 said that I would do that. I would -- I would do that, I 25 -- I will walk for those ones that couldn't walk, I would
571 -- I would help in any way that I could. And it was a -- 2 it was a thing that -- it was a planned-out route to 3 every town. We had police escort. We had permission 4 from the -- their councils that we could take this route 5 to go through. 6 And, you know, we -- we told them we were 7 going to hand out little pamphlets. And they -- they 8 agreed. 9 Q: What did those pamphlets say? 10 A: We were walking for home. The Stoney 11 Point Long Walk for Home is what it was called. And it 12 was -- it was, again, like, it wasn't that people didn't 13 know every town that we went through, every city, you 14 know. Knowing the different place had different regions, 15 or the different police forces had given us, like, 16 escorts in -- in through the town and back to the 17 perimeters. 18 I think the -- maybe the OPP took on that 19 knowledge that we were going to Ottawa. It wasn't -- it 20 wasn't to go there to place threats or anything. It was 21 -- it was to try and, I guess, for the sake of it, to put 22 a face on those people that were making the decision as 23 to who was keeping the land from those people. 24 Q: Okay. And when you say that it 25 wasn't meant to go there to make threats and such, were
581 there discussions about the -- the nature of -- of the 2 walk, the way people would conduct themselves, the manner 3 in which the point that you were attempting to make would 4 be made? 5 A: Well, it was a thing of -- of 6 awareness, eh? Like, I know that there was -- there was 7 elders that were there, like, my uncle Cliff there, he 8 accompanied us all the way, you know. And he never -- he 9 never made no thing about needing a room or -- he slept 10 in his little pony car, you know. 11 And that was the thing that, you know, 12 like, when you -- when you're going to do these things 13 it's nice to have those old people as your witness; that 14 if somebody wants to question you, you have that right 15 there, you have your witness right there. 16 And it -- and it helped -- it helped to -- 17 to bring forth, I guess, an understanding with other 18 people, in those other communities, that not every 19 community had people there to greet us or, you know. 20 Like, we -- we weren't looking for that, we were -- we 21 were trying just to raise awareness. 22 But we did have that where people, you 23 know, they come out, they -- you know, they -- they had 24 some of their reporters. They had gifts, some had food, 25 some had -- you know they asked that, can we share a meal
591 with you, you know. Like, -- I -- I remember the -- we 2 were -- we were just outside of Toronto and the -- the 3 Mennonite Central Committee that -- that put us up in a - 4 - a summer camp, you know, and things just worked out. 5 Like my sister showed up with big pans of 6 lasagna and -- and Caesar salad and everybody had a great 7 big feast and she was just there to do that and she took 8 off. She had business elsewhere and things like that 9 happened. 10 Things -- you know, when you -- when you 11 do things in ceremony they -- they -- they fall together 12 perfect. There's no, like, questioning what it is that 13 we're doing. I might limp around today for -- I can 14 still feel my -- my knee aching from walking on the 15 lopsided shoulder of the road. But I look at it as, you 16 know, that's something that -- to me, that's nobody 17 else's business but my own, you know? 18 Q: And we're given to understand, Mr. 19 George, that the reason Ottawa was selected as a 20 destination, is that's where the politicians were -- the 21 Federal Politicians, in any event? 22 A: Exactly, yeah. 23 Q: And were you able to meet with them 24 and to -- to express to them the concerns that you 25 evidently reported along the way?
601 A: We tried to, but they had a media 2 blackout when we got there and there was no reporters, no 3 cameras, no radios, no nothing and it was a -- it was a 4 kind of thing that we expected that. 5 We didn't -- we didn't mope around. We 6 didn't -- we didn't get too excited about it because we 7 all knew that Indian Affairs building was located in Hull 8 and we didn't want to go demonstrate over there because 9 they don't allow demonstrations over there, and if you 10 do, they'll just basically shoot you. 11 And that's, kind of like, our 12 understandings that, you know, we knew what we were 13 doing. We had, you know, like, that part of a -- how do 14 you -- how do you word it, like -- like an understanding 15 of why we were doing this. And the reason we were doing 16 this was, you know, to try and find, like, who -- who are 17 these people that make those decisions because we were -- 18 we were trying to meet with them as -- as the youngs -- 19 youngsters that have grown up to -- to be adults. We 20 were trying to find, you know, some answers that would 21 justify their actions. 22 And that was the thing that I know on -- 23 on the way there, there was -- there was things like, I 24 remember just Peterborough, my -- my cousin, I -- I 25 received a message that my cousin had passed away. And
611 so I had to -- we had to go and get a rented car to give 2 my other cousins a ride home because that was their 3 uncle. And I wanted to stay just, you know, like, when I 4 made the statement that I would -- I would go and I'd see 5 this thing through, well, I had to go. 6 I had to go back and that was a six (6) 7 hour ride one (1) way, so in twelve (12) hours I was -- I 8 was back by Peter -- Peterborough area. And there was 9 things -- like that -- that was only one (1) incident, 10 but you know, it was a thing that sometimes you -- you 11 can't just march on down the road. Sometimes you've go 12 to pay your respects as you go. 13 Q: And the fact of the matter is, is 14 that you were unable, then, to meet with any Federal 15 officials? 16 A: None -- none of them were -- were 17 willing enough to meet with us, I think -- 18 Q: And because of the blackout that 19 you've told us about that there, in fact, was no media 20 coverage? 21 A: None, nothing, nobody from in that 22 building come out. Like it was -- it was a thing that -- 23 that I never been there before myself, but until that 24 day. I remember that it looked so -- so -- I'm lost for 25 words again, because I seen this fountain and there was
621 flames coming out it and -- and it kind of made that 2 thing about, holy, look at -- look at that, it's magic. 3 And I was walking up the -- the stairs as, 4 you know, we had -- we had our Aazhoodena flags and stuff 5 like that and eagle staff and we had a couple of pipes 6 that travelled with us. 7 I remember we got up so close and then 8 they looked up at this big, tall building and -- and you 9 look up and you see these -- these things poking out the 10 corners of -- of the building where you got these horns 11 and big fangs and what the heck is that? 12 We walked all the way here to -- you look 13 up and you -- they looked like these gargoyle things that 14 they put on TV, eh? I don't know what they are. They 15 look kind of -- 16 Q: Gargoyles. 17 A: -- scary looking, eh? And you'd kind 18 of question me if I was at the right place or not, so. 19 Q: And given the -- given the reception 20 that you received, I take it that there was -- in spite 21 of your -- your comment now that you didn't mope around 22 about it, was there not a certain sense of frustration? 23 A: Oh, yeah. It was -- it was thing 24 that we just hugged each other and we thanked each other 25 and you know, we -- we done what we could.
631 Q: This happened in 1993, Mr. George? 2 A: Gees, I'm lost for dates. I think -- 3 yeah, I think it was '93. 4 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that it 5 was shortly thereafter, or in and around that time, that 6 people took a more direct approach, if I can put it that 7 way. 8 And that is that there was a move onto the 9 actual Army Base, onto the range area, indeed, on May the 10 6th of 1993. 11 A: Yeah. May 6th of '93 is the day that 12 -- to me, dates when -- when I buried my dad in 1990 was 13 a -- was a thing that I used to question myself. 14 Q: Just let me interrupt you for a 15 minute. I've -- I've just been informed that, in fact, 16 the walk occurred after the move onto the Army Base. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. So I stand corrected. 19 A: I'll correct you next time if I -- 20 Q: Thank you. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: Let me just -- let me just ask you 23 about that incident of May the 6th of '93. You were -- 24 you became aware, I take it at some point, that people 25 moved on to the land?
641 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Were you aware that -- of that 3 intention beforehand, Mr. George? 4 A: No, no, I -- I used to -- like I 5 say, I used to go the -- go to those meetings, you know 6 the -- the Locatee meetings, that again, it seemed like a 7 forever thing that they were meeting and nothing was 8 being done, eh? 9 And it was -- it was -- it wasn't like a 10 gathering to create scare tactics or anything like that. 11 It was -- it was always the -- you know, we got to put a 12 face on the politicians as to who is making these 13 decisions. 14 And I remember -- I remember that that 15 part of moving on to the -- the Camp because I was at 16 work that day and I -- I was working for the council on 17 Kettle Point doing fire hydrants, like, I done -- it was 18 about a hundred and twelve (112) fire hydrants on a 19 contract. 20 I was hired as a contractor and we 21 replaced, I think, about seventy (70) fire hydrants that 22 were just basically a valve with a pipe in the ground and 23 some of them were bent over and we put all new fire 24 hydrants in and we added, I think, about thirty (30) more 25 new ones.
651 And my contract being terminated, they 2 give me this other job of -- where the sub-division is 3 behind the mall on Kettle Point. And it was right at May 4 6th there that I -- I heard, like, there was people moved 5 into the Camp. 6 Like, it wasn't a surprise to me. I knew 7 they were going to do it some day, but I wasn't involved 8 in that -- in that day where they were going to go and do 9 this. 10 Q: Just let me stop there for a moment. 11 In terms of the discussions of the 12 locatees and that this move came as no surprise to you, 13 in the discussions where perhaps they talked about taking 14 that sort of action, was there ever any discussion about 15 the manner in which they would do that; that is to say, 16 to what lengths were they prepared to go? 17 A: Well, to me it was always they -- 18 it's like knowing that you had family with the local 19 police force that you -- you think that you were going to 20 receive some kind of internal input on their part, but I 21 -- I don't know what was ever said, nor do I ever seen 22 any kind of physical input. 23 There was always, you know, the -- the 24 verbal support of, Yeah, like, that's what was needed to 25 be done. And to me it was -- it was like -- working with
661 my mom, this -- this is, you know, October 1990 I buried 2 my dad. And then May 6 of '93 was, you know, roughly two 3 (2) years after, that to me, I knew what it was going to 4 take if those people were to move in there then. 5 When I got home from work that day my -- 6 my mother had all these -- these sandwiches and cakes and 7 these coffee thermoses, and she had tea and coffee, she 8 had water, and she had all this stuff all packaged up. 9 And she -- she told me, she said that, Marlin and Kevin 10 are in there, you better go look after them, so, and 11 still there today. 12 Q: So, you didn't go in as part of the 13 original -- or initial group, rather? 14 A: No. I -- I went down there after 15 they were already in there and when I got there it was -- 16 there was a lot of people that, you know, they were kind 17 of viewing how they were going to spend the night. I 18 know they -- they kind of had this -- this look about 19 them that, You're not going to leave, are you, you know, 20 when I got there. I just got here, you know, and they're 21 -- they're already hinting around that, You're not going 22 to leave, eh. 23 So, I stayed there with them. 24 Q: Are you aware, Mr. George, that there 25 had been, prior to -- prior to this event and indeed
671 prior to -- let's just say prior to this event, that 2 there had been other entries onto the land for ceremonial 3 purposes; are you aware of any of that? 4 A: Oh, yeah. Like, I remember just 5 after we moved onto the -- the ranges, which is probably 6 -- would be around the long weekend in May there, 7 probably two (2) weeks later maybe, that they -- they 8 were living on the one side of this steel bridge, along 9 Highway 21. 10 And I remember there were -- there was 11 things that were happening within the group, that some -- 12 some people were coming and going and they weren't 13 sharing in some of the work, so, you know, gathering 14 wood, that kind of stuff. That -- I remember at that 15 time I went -- I went in I seen my Uncle Abe and -- and I 16 asked him to -- I want you to show me exactly where this 17 homestead was, because I -- I didn't want to get into 18 that part of bickering about who lived where and stuff 19 like that. 20 And that's when my uncle Abe came with me 21 and he -- he showed me where the house was, where the 22 barn was, where the shed was, where the well was. And 23 that was the -- the time, right then and there, that he 24 says, You've got to dig that well out, like, the Army 25 filled in our -- our whole homestead well, and now -- now
681 you've got to dig it out. 2 And I -- I feel kind of, you know, like, 3 being a hypocrite that -- that I didn't dig that well 4 out. It -- it hasn't been done yet, you know. I was 5 told to do something and I guess I'm only human, eh. 6 Like, maybe I got to go start digging it, you know, in 7 the spring type of thing, eh. 8 Q: When you -- when you went into the -- 9 to the range area to join the others that went in on May 10 the 6th, where did you stay? 11 A: I went in and like there was a -- 12 there's a creek along 21 Highway there, some of them 13 called one (1) of the creeks Mud Creek and the other one 14 was, like, I think they called it Golden Rod Creek, I -- 15 I forget. But anyway, it was -- it was on that one (1) 16 side there, eh, and then they had a tent there, but I 17 just slept in my car because I had to go to work in the 18 morning. 19 Q: And how long did you stay in your car 20 when you would go to work the next morning? 21 A: I would say it was right around that 22 time, like from May 6th to -- to around May 24 weekend 23 was, I think, about all that I could handle because the - 24 - the Council was kind of giving me the run-around 25 because I was working on the reserve and I was living on
691 the Camp and then, I don't know, it just seemed like I -- 2 I guess my -- my priority was more to the -- to helping 3 those people at the Camp than it was running a 4 construction crew. 5 Q: Okay. So do I take it from that that 6 you then moved onto the range on a more permanent basis, 7 that is, other than in your vehicle? 8 A: Yeah. It was -- it well, I had to go 9 get my uncle to help me on that, eh, because I -- I 10 needed to hear from him, like, reassurance as to where 11 the property was, eh? And that's basically what he did 12 and it was a thing that, you know, he -- he kind of took 13 that as the people needed that too, was to have, you 14 know, people that had this knowledge there -- right then 15 and there, you know, like, to have that witness, I guess. 16 Q: And I take it that you had built, 17 then, a more permanent type of a -- a dwelling? 18 A: Yeah. There was -- like, we -- we 19 had a cook shack, eh? Like, it had, like a tarp and we 20 had, like a tripod that we had for cooking over an open 21 fire and we had propane cookers like, you know, like -- 22 like a stove out of a trailer that was just a -- like a 23 hot plate. And we had those, that run by propane, and we 24 had, at that same time, a bus that was given to us by my 25 brother that he was going to use it for storing parts in
701 and it was still licenced to go on the road, eh? 2 I remember my -- my nephew was going to 3 use that for his living quarters, eh, and I remember 4 there was tents. It was like tent city. There was lots 5 of tents and I think at that -- at that same time, we 6 were busy, like we had been given some trailers that, you 7 know after the walk the -- the first place where we 8 stayed, there was a German family had given us this 9 trailer and after we got back from Ottawa we -- they let 10 us use a tractor and we brought it to the Camp. 11 I remember the Bailiff had a couple of 12 trailers that were being, I think -- I don't know if he 13 was -- if he was repossessing them or if they would just 14 give them to him, but, I mean, I helped dismantle them 15 and get them roadworthy to drag them down the road and 16 give the one (1) trailer to Dudley and there was some 17 young people that wanted to live in the other one, that 18 they were given a place to live, and that was the first 19 winter. 20 Q: When you say the -- "the Bailiff" 21 you're referring to -- 22 A: Scott Ewart was -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- the -- the guy that served them 25 with the eviction notice.
711 Q: He had served the Military with an 2 eviction notice on -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- the behest of -- 5 A: It was on behalf of the people from - 6 - you know, the -- the Stoney Point people were -- were, 7 I guess, always being pecked at where, you know, you're - 8 - were you from Kettle Point or were you from Stoney 9 Point? And to me, I'm -- my home will always be Kettle 10 Point, like that's the way I look at it, you know? 11 Like, I might live in -- in the Army Camp, 12 which is where my dad was born and raised, but you know, 13 I -- I grew up in Kettle Point, and you know, I -- I 14 honoured my dad's wish of going home, so you know, 15 sometimes I think I got to go home with him to look after 16 him and make sure nobody's going to dig him up, type of 17 thing. 18 Q: All right. I want to move, Mr. -- 19 Mr. George, to the relationship between the people on the 20 range and the Military and I'd -- I'd like to do that 21 after the break if I may, Mr. Commissioner, which perhaps 22 is an appropriate time now. 23 But maybe before we do that, I just want 24 to ask you, Mr. George, what the mood was among the 25 people that were living on the range, at that point?
721 A: I thought it was like -- there -- 2 there was a lot of people that were kind of looking at me 3 because I not so much walked off the job on Kettle Point, 4 it was -- I left that job in the hands of all these, 5 like, my older brother and my -- my cousins Kenny and Rob 6 that had basically taught me everything. 7 That I left that part with them and -- and 8 -- you know, they finished the job. They -- they got, 9 you know, more experience I think than I do, it's just 10 that I found myself being plucked into a -- you know, a 11 role of making sure I'm going to see this thing through, 12 type of thing. 13 And that was the feeling, the feelings 14 like when we left this little parcel of land on the one 15 side of the creek, that I -- I got my -- my uncle has 16 shown me where the homestead was, well, that's where our 17 camp's going to be then. 18 And hopefully my grandma and my grandpa 19 and all their siblings and all their grandchildren and 20 that will come there, you know, to check it out, you know 21 and -- 22 Q: And again, Mr. George, the feeling or 23 the mood among the -- among the people that were going 24 back onto the range or that had moved back onto the 25 range; what -- what was it?
731 A: I think it was more of an inspiration 2 because it was like I seen, you know, Mr. Cliff take that 3 initiation tool that, you know, he -- he's going to go 4 back too, where he remembers his homestead being. 5 You know, and I remember we had a -- we 6 had a little sweat going there right -- he had a trailer 7 and he had it under the tree. And then we had -- we had 8 the lodge there that one night and I remember he even 9 moved it up closer towards the barracks that, you know, 10 that -- that was the part of the inspiration that I think 11 that was going on within that -- the people in the -- in 12 the Camp there was that they were not so much being 13 encroached upon that day, we were doing the encroaching 14 and I -- I thought that was pretty cool to -- to see, you 15 know, old warriors doing that, you know what I mean? 16 Q: Well, we'll leave it at that and 17 after the break we'll come back to that point. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 a.m.
741 --- Upon resuming at 10:52 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: If I may just have a 6 moment, Mr. Commissioner. I see my witness has stepped 7 away briefly. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Mr. George, when we left off you had 13 indicated that you had moved back to the homestead, I 14 think as you put it, that your uncle had showed you, 15 that is, the homestead on the -- on the range area. 16 I think you've already indicated that to 17 be immediately adjacent to the west of what is described 18 as the rifle range, on the diagram marked as Exhibit P- 19 40? 20 A: Hmm hmm, yeah. 21 Q: During that -- that time when the 22 folks moved onto that range, what was the relationship 23 with the Military, who was also obviously still on the -- 24 on the land? They were occupying the built up area. 25 What was the relationship with the
751 Military? 2 A: I just seen them as they were still 3 there, type of thing, and I know a lot of -- a lot of the 4 people used to ask them, Why are you -- are you still 5 here or, Why are you here or ,You haven't left yet? 6 Q: Was there any discussion with the 7 Military? Did you have any discussion with any Military 8 personnel, for example? 9 A: Not in any -- like what's the term, 10 formal. 11 Q: Not any formal discussions? 12 A: No. 13 Q: What about informal discussions? 14 A: There was informal ones in the -- in 15 the area of, like, the sections of lands that were viewed 16 as, like, private property. Being like a homestead is -- 17 is sort of like a -- that's a family interest in that 18 particular parcel of land type of thing. That -- 19 Q: So, you're telling us that there 20 would be informal discussions with Military personnel 21 where it would be related, this was original homestead 22 sort of thing? Is that -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Am I understanding you right? 25 A: Yeah. And whatever they -- they --
761 Q: And who would these discussions be 2 with? 3 A: They were kind of like the patrols 4 that the Military had, doing perimeter -- perimeter 5 checks on -- on the property. 6 Q: Did you become familiar with these 7 persons -- Military personnel doing the -- doing the 8 patrols? 9 A: I got to know some of them, I didn't 10 get to know all of them, like, they changed. Some of 11 them had, I guess, been stationed in different places and 12 some would show up for, I don't know, a little while and 13 I never really got to have too much to do with them. 14 Q: What about anybody in superior rank 15 to those that were doing patrol? 16 A: They possibly could have been there. 17 I -- I never -- 18 Q: And I'm talking just about the early 19 days in 1993 -- in and around May '90 -- '93 in the -- in 20 the weeks following that. 21 A: Like -- I -- like I said, I -- I -- I 22 found out from my mom that the people moved onto the land 23 and to me I -- I guess, getting there later never really, 24 I guess, got approached as being one (1) of those ones 25 that were there moving onto the land.
771 Like, I remember a couple of times being 2 asked who I was and stuff like that, eh, where I remember 3 responding to them that this is, you know, after we moved 4 their camp was, This is the homestead of my grandpa and 5 my grandma. 6 Q: Okay. One (1) of the patrol officers 7 was an individual by the name of Daniel Peterson. Are 8 you familiar with that individual at all, Mr. George? 9 A: No. 10 Q: I can tell you that he supplied a -- 11 a statement and it is Inquiry Document 1004489, where he 12 reports that he had an incident involving yourself. Does 13 that assist you at all? 14 A: No. 15 Q: In fact, that -- that he suggests in 16 his report -- well, he doesn't suggest, he reports that 17 he's had several run-ins with you and on one (1) occasion 18 that you were -- you had to be subdued with pepper spray. 19 A: I've never been pepper sprayed in my 20 life. 21 Q: All right. He reports that he was 22 with Master Seaman Hudson. Does that name at all -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- ring a bell for you? 25 A: No.
781 Q: And this -- and this apparently was 2 at the same time when you were pepper sprayed. 3 A: Like, again, I've never been pepper - 4 - pepper sprayed, so I don't know what they would be 5 talking about. 6 Q: They describe your -- or Military 7 Personnel Peterson and I'm sorry, I don't know his rank 8 just off hand, reports that typically, and I quote: 9 "Typically Glenn had been drinking and 10 had a group of four (4) or five (5) 11 people with him." 12 Do you have any response to that? 13 A: I've been sober ever since I moved 14 there on May 6th of '93. So I don't know what this 15 person is talking about. 16 Q: Okay. And when you say, "sober", you 17 -- you're telling us that you haven't consumed alcohol 18 since May 6th of '93? 19 A: Yeah, that's what I give up with I 20 went to live there. 21 Q: All right. You did have an incident, 22 though, Mr. George, with -- that had something to do with 23 a spike belt; it flattened the -- the tires of your 24 employer's truck? 25 A: Yeah, that would be --
791 Q: I believe Marlin Simon had testified 2 of an incident occurring some time around November of 3 '94? 4 A: Yeah. I was -- I was employed by 5 William Johnson Construction (phonetic). That's a guy 6 that my -- my dad used to work for him and work -- he 7 worked for his dad. It was like a -- like a family 8 thing. 9 Like, I knew his family just like, you 10 know -- my cousin Sam, he used to work for him too. And 11 that we used to have, like, a -- when you work in the 12 same type of business you have, you know, like a -- it's 13 like a family type of setting. You work together and 14 that's -- that's who I was working for at the time. 15 Q: Okay. You had an incident with the 16 OPP at that time? 17 A: No. It was them who had an incident 18 with me. I was minding my own business. 19 Q: Let's -- let's have you describe the 20 incident they had with you then. 21 A: Well, at that -- at that time, I -- I 22 remember that we're -- like, I spoke of that -- that 23 road, the Bluewater Highway that -- that runs kind of 24 parallel with 21 Highway, there's a -- there's a row of 25 walnut trees and -- and the trailer that was up here, we
801 would -- used to say Dudley's place -- 2 Q: You're indicating, if I -- if I may, 3 Mr. George, to the west of the rifle range? 4 A: Yeah. It was -- it was the trailer 5 right -- right here and it was -- it was across on this 6 other road that we were -- the trailer used to have a 7 wood stove in it and we used to make a fire. It used to 8 get so hot in there that the front door was open in the 9 middle of winter, it would be snowing out and -- anyways, 10 to cool it off in there, hey. 11 I remember -- I remember at this time we 12 had the -- the door open, we could see the OPP cruiser 13 down here, on that -- on that road that runs by the 14 walnut trees. 15 Q: You're indicating an area south of 16 Highway 21, south of the rifle range area? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I guess it's -- I don't really know 20 the name of the road but it's got walnut trees on it, 21 hey. It's kind of like in -- in that parallel with 21 22 Highway. And I could see that cruiser from the trailer 23 that was there. 24 So -- what happened I think was we went 25 down the road and there was an entrance right here. We
811 went down Army Camp Road and the next thing we know, 2 there was a whole slew of police all through these roads, 3 all -- all the way around, even on the perimeters of it 4 there was -- 5 Q: And, again, just for the record, Mr. 6 George, pardon me but you are pointing to the various 7 roads that run inside the Military Base? 8 A: Yeah. They were inside too. There 9 was cruisers all over. That's -- I don't know, like, I - 10 - I kind of thought it was normal because of the -- like, 11 during, I guess, the May 2/4 weekend is usually when they 12 bring more police for Grand Bend. The Grand Bend has, I 13 think, probably about a population of seven (7) to eight 14 hundred (800) people and in summertime it shoots up to 15 over twenty thousand (20,000). 16 And so, that's what we kind of take as -- 17 like it has been in the past, where they used to bring in 18 more officers for patrol in the areas, hey. That's what 19 I understood that was. 20 But this is kind of like in November. I - 21 - I kind of wondered why -- why are they here now, you 22 know what I mean. 23 Q: So what was the incident? 24 A: The incident was I guess they -- they 25 wanted to pull me over for some reason, I don't know.
821 And I came down from the trailer on 21 Highway, I went 2 down this road and they followed me in. They -- they 3 followed me all along these roads, all throughout the 4 Camp, all of them. 5 We got to different corners and there was 6 one (1) or two (2) cruisers on that corner, so I had to 7 go this way. And, you know, I wasn't racing around. You 8 know, they were right behind me. And I remember going up 9 the front and went by Terry's trailer and by Clifford's, 10 and at that time there wasn't nobody awake, so I just 11 drove by. 12 And I remember coming up that hill -- 13 there's a -- there's a hill right in this area they -- 14 they call Moses Hill (phonetic), that's -- Moses was my 15 grandfather Bob's brother. That's where he lived and 16 that's why they called it Moses Hill. 17 And that's where I remember me and Marlin 18 were just going up the -- the hill and right at that last 19 second, that's when we seen the spike belt on the road. 20 And we made it to the top of the hill and the tires were 21 flat, so we couldn't go nowhere. 22 Q: Okay. I get the sense that you're 23 describing that you were being pursued by the police. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And did they have their lights
831 activated? 2 A: Oh, yeah. They had lights -- 3 Q: Is there a reason why you wouldn't 4 have pulled over? 5 A: I guess my reason was that to me, I 6 kind of -- I kind of felt like between me and my -- my 7 nephew that that's what we were doing was hunting, eh? 8 Like that was our plan. Like I was waiting for my -- my 9 nephew to come from London. 10 The -- he's told us earlier on that, you 11 know, we'll go out and we'll gather some food, you know? 12 That's what we were going to do and that -- that's the 13 thing that kind of happened. It was one of those things 14 that I guess, you know, they got radios and you got other 15 police that, you know, and you call them and that's I 16 guess, what they do. I don't -- I don't know what they 17 do. I know that's what I done. That's what happened. 18 Q: Why didn't you pull over? 19 A: To me I had a feeling that within the 20 boundaries of the -- of the Camp that -- you know, it was 21 like, if they wanted to pull me over they could do it in 22 the light of day not in the dark. 23 I'm not one for doing business after dark. 24 To me I have that same feeling that, yeah, if they're 25 driving in my backyard I'll pull them over, too and find
841 out what -- what are you doing? 2 Q: I understand in 1993, Mr. George, 3 that there was a meeting with the Ontario Provincial 4 Police at the Army range at one of the first structures 5 that was built there, initially as a church. It's been 6 described variously as the meeting place, or Council 7 Chambers or Argument hall. 8 A: They call it that, the Argument hall, 9 yeah. I'm not -- I'm not too really sure. I remember 10 hearing things put out into the -- into the community as 11 to that -- those were like, like a refuge or like a safe 12 haven it was -- 13 Q: You're talking about -- 14 A: -- use it as a building of -- of -- 15 like a church status, eh? 16 Q: And do you recall a meeting there 17 with the Ontario Provincial Police in 1993? 18 A: I remember the meeting and I don't 19 really remember who was all there. Yeah, I remember the 20 meeting took place. 21 Q: Okay. Do you remember that Clifford 22 George was there? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Can you remember any of the 25 discussion that went on and whether -- who led the
851 discussion and what was the nature of the discussion? 2 A: The nature of the discussion was the 3 -- the part of creating a dialogue with the OPP and the 4 Military and whoever else wanted to attend, whether it be 5 the RCMP. 6 I remember hearing that it was a -- a 7 setting to make sure that, you know, that these things 8 that it was like a political thing that -- I remember 9 hearing Cliff speak on that part about being in the 10 Military and having to wear a uniform and -- and meetings 11 like that where -- were asked that they be, you know, 12 plainclothes without sidearms, because that was like a 13 threat to -- to the people. 14 You know, coming to a meeting with -- with 15 the uniform and -- and guns wasn't the setting. The 16 setting was to -- you know, the -- express that line of 17 communication and -- and creating a dialogue so that we 18 have something to work with, eh? 19 Q: All right. And as a result of that 20 meeting, do you know whether there were subsequent 21 meetings along the lines of building a dialogue? 22 A: I remember these things were said 23 before and it was -- it was kind of strange that they had 24 to be reminded because they came there in that meeting 25 with a uniform and a side arm and that's -- that was the
861 -- the thing that we had informed other people from other 2 reserves of that meeting and -- and we asked them to 3 attend and some of them did. 4 Q: Just let me -- let me ask you on that 5 latter point, Mr. George. You had asked people from -- 6 or you said we had asked the people from other 7 communities to attend -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: What people and -- and for what 10 reason were they asked to attend? 11 A: The reason was to hear the Elders 12 and, you know, in -- in the Camp speak on that part of 13 the -- the issue of weapons, I guess -- guns. 14 Q: Was there discussion about weapons? 15 About guns? 16 A: That's what the meeting was about, 17 was we -- we were inviting, you know, the -- the police 18 services out there to honour what the Elders were asking 19 was, you know, we would meet with them at any given time, 20 any place, but to have that little bit of a respect for, 21 you know, some of the Elders that had been in the 22 Military that they've seen uniforms and -- and sidearms 23 constantly, that this wasn't why we were here -- to see 24 that and -- and it can be taken, you know, as a -- as a - 25 - as a threat to some of them that's been in the war that
871 possibly, you know, have flashbacks or something. 2 Like, we -- we didn't want to get into 3 that. We -- we tried to have it like a setting where, 4 you know, like right now, we don't have badges or guns or 5 uniforms or nothing. That's kind of what we were trying 6 to do. 7 Q: So the dialogue and -- and you said a 8 political thing -- it was an attempt to create a 9 political process. Is that fair? 10 A: I think when you -- when you go 11 through all the different avenues, like, you know in a -- 12 in a past -- I -- I can remember hearing, you know, the 13 different politicians that were asked to give witness and 14 -- or to try to help in the return of the lands that, you 15 know, I -- I can -- I can only, you know, speak on that 16 part of -- that's the things that I -- I can still go 17 home today and go through that old paperwork that, you 18 know, that our people had made, those types of 19 suggestions to -- to get the return of the land in a -- 20 in a peaceful fashion. 21 Q: Part of the process, then, to get 22 that message across, you told us that you wanted to meet 23 with the OPP, with the Military, and the purpose of 24 that -- 25 A: Was to have that open line of
881 communication that if there was things that happened 2 that, you know, that if -- if we could help in any way 3 that that was the reason for it. 4 Q: Were there, in fact, people from the 5 Military that attended this meeting? 6 A: I don't think so. I don't -- 7 Q: Do you recall any of the individuals 8 from the OPP that attended this meeting? 9 A: Gees, I'm kind of -- there's so many 10 of them. Like, I don't know if it was, like, Speck or -- 11 or Charlie Bowman or -- or both or Mark Dew. I -- I know 12 that there was -- there was two (2) that came in 13 plainclothes and one (1) came with a uniform. And 14 that's -- 15 Q: Did it seem to you, Mr. George, that 16 there was, in fact, any kind of agreement reached as a 17 result of this meeting that any subsequent meetings would 18 be attended absent uniform and sidearms by the police? 19 A: They basically said, No. They're 20 going to -- if you want a meeting, well, this is the way 21 we have to conduct their meetings and it wasn't the way 22 that we wanted the meetings it was basically told to us 23 that they're going to host meetings the way they choose, 24 not the way we choose, so -- 25 Q: All right.
891 A: -- I don't really know what followed 2 up after that. 3 Q: In the -- that summer of 1993, we are 4 -- we have been told of an incident that occurred at 5 Matheson Drive, in the intersection of that and Army Camp 6 Road. 7 We understand that there was a small 8 trailer or something erected by certain members of the 9 Stoney Point group, if you'll permit me to put it that 10 way; that there was some suggestion of, perhaps, tolls 11 being collected to facilitate access to the beach? 12 A: I don't think it was a -- a trailer. 13 I think it was just a lawn chair with an umbrella that 14 had a clamp on it. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And all -- and all they did was ask 17 for a donation for using the beach. I don't think it was 18 a toll booth, I think it was just basically part of our 19 fundraising, that we were trying to raise funds, you 20 know, like I told you before for lawyer fees and stuff 21 like that, that -- you know, that it was an ongoing 22 thing. 23 Fundraising was fundraising, eh? And I 24 don't -- I don't look at it as -- as getting rich, 25 because I don't think any of our people got rich off it.
901 And I don't know if any of the lawyers got any of the 2 money because I don't think we -- we raised all that 3 much. 4 Q: Were you around at that point, Mr. 5 George? Did you witness? 6 A: Yeah, I was there. And that's -- 7 that's the same thing, that they constantly had me, I 8 guess, warrants for my arrest. And that's what -- I was 9 on the inside of the fence, watching. 10 Q: We -- we already know that there were 11 people arrested as a result of that. 12 A: Oh yeah. Yeah. I got pictures of 13 that. 14 Q: And Mr. Clifford George in fact was 15 one of those that were -- was arrested and detained? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did you have a conversation or you 18 recall having a conversation just in and around that 19 event with one John Carson? 20 A: I don't remember -- remember meeting 21 with John Carson. I -- I experienced a few informal 22 meetings. Like, I remember at that -- at that time, that 23 -- I remember that I think -- I think I rode down there 24 with -- with Spike, I think. 25 Q: When you say "Spike", you're
911 referring to? 2 A: Ron, Ron George. I -- I think that's 3 at that time, that was going on. 4 Q: You don't recall a conversation with 5 John Carson? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Do you know that he was a ranking 8 officer with the Ontario Provincial Police? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: But I -- I don't recall having a 12 meeting with him about anything really. 13 Q: And that he suggested to you that the 14 protest should perhaps just end, that you'd achieved the 15 objective of obtaining media attention around that; does 16 that help you at all, Mr. George? 17 A: Are you talking of when Clifford was 18 arrested? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I don't remember talking to John 21 Carson, no. 22 Q: Okay. Now, I just want to try to 23 clarify the date of that event. There has been a 24 suggestion that the date on that was August of 1993. 25 A: The date that I got down is July
921 17th, '93. 2 Q: I see that you are referring to 3 something. What is that, Mr. George? 4 A: Pictures of what happened. 5 Q: Those are Polaroid pictures? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Who took those pictures? 8 A: I did. I had -- I had my -- my 9 bailiff buddy too, he was snap-shooting pictures. 10 Q: Were those pictures taken by -- by 11 your bailiff buddy or by you? 12 A: By Scotty Ewart. 13 Q: Okay. Now, there's -- there's a date 14 on that, I'm assuming? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And that date is? 17 A: On these ones here, it's got the 18 19th. And these other ones have the 17th. 19 Q: Would you permit us to put those into 20 evidence, Mr. George? 21 A: Only if I get them back. 22 Q: I can't comment on that. 23 A: I'm not -- I'm not donating nothing 24 to anybody. 25 Q: Perhaps what we can do then is that--
931 A: I'll share them, okay, I -- 2 Q: -- you permit us to obtain copies of 3 those and circulate that to other counsel here. 4 A: Okay. I got no problem with that. 5 Q: And we'll return the originals to 6 you. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps rather than 13 marking these now, Mr. Commissioner, what we can do is we 14 will be borrowing those from -- from the witness. We 15 will have to take them likely back to a facility that can 16 copy those for us and then circulate them. And we will 17 try to, at that point, have them marked as exhibits. 18 Mr. Millar gives me some good advice and 19 suggests that perhaps we can assign a number to them now. 20 And with the indulgence... 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-139, Your Honour, we'll 22 just reserve that then. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: 1-3-9? 24 THE REGISTRAR: 1-3-9. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you.
941 2 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-139: Four (4) poloroid 3 photographs, 4 dated July 19/93; taken by 5 Scott Ewart, location - 6 Stoney Point 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many are 9 there? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: What we have here, Mr. 11 Commissioner, is a series of four (4) photographs and if 12 I could see better I could tell you what they show. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: It would appear to be a couple of 16 golf -type umbrellas over top of lawn chairs, Mr. George, 17 you'll agree with -- with that? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: They're polaroid photographs bearing 20 a handwritten date of July 17th, 1993? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: There's one (1) photograph which 23 would appear to be police officers escorting someone 24 away? 25 A: I think it's either Johnny or Martin.
951 Q: And that would be Johnny? 2 A: Johnny George or Martin Kewageshig 3 (phonetic). 4 Q: Thank you. The third -- 5 A: I had one of Cliff. I know my kids 6 they got into my photo album. It's around the house 7 somewhere. I just couldn't find it. 8 Q: All right. Well, we'll have these 9 with the -- with the Registrar and before we make copies, 10 I'm sure people will want to have a stare at this. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: I want to move you to another 15 incident that we've heard something about, Mr. George, 16 and that is an allegation of a helicopter being shot in 17 and around the range, the Army range. 18 Were you -- were you present at the range 19 when this incident is alleged to have occurred? 20 A: I was -- I was there when the 21 helicopters came there and I -- 22 Q: I note you say "helicopters". I take 23 it that means more than one (1)? 24 A: Yeah. I remember seeing four (4) of 25 them coming across the field. What happened there was --
961 was kind of like a -- I guess the timing was different. 2 Prior to what you're talking about, they 3 use -- they were showing up at around two o'clock in the 4 morning and I remember this time they -- at that time 5 there was -- there was -- there was a cruiser that was 6 parked on the -- on the road right in front of the 7 trailer. 8 And there was one (1) at the corner of 9 Army Camp Road and there was another one at Outer Drive. 10 There was one (1) on -- on the hill by Outer Drive. Like 11 we -- we've had people constantly on our part patrolling 12 the interior and exterior of the Base, of the Camp. 13 And there was a lot of people that had 14 come in from the different directions that had seen 15 cruisers at all the different corners of the Camp. 16 And I remember having a sacred fire that 17 was burning. It burnt for six (6) months. That -- 18 that's what I was busy doing when these helicopters come 19 flying over where we were. 20 And to get into the shooting of it, I 21 don't -- I -- I had other things that I was tending to. 22 Like I was there. 23 Q: Did you hear shots? 24 A: I never heard no shots. 25 Q: Or a shot or gun shots?
971 A: No. But I -- I sensed all of these 2 things that -- that were -- there was people that were, 3 you know, when they hear that tch, tch, tch, tch 4 (phonetic) from a distance, you know, the -- the 5 spotlights come on. 6 Like all the different camps. All along 7 the ranges that were there. Everybody had spotlights. 8 Like that was the thing that -- doing things in the dark 9 was the reasons why we used to have lighting set up for 10 that purpose. 11 A lot of times they wanted to meet with 12 the people, they -- they -- we always tried to meet in 13 the light of day so you can see who you're meeting with 14 and that never happened. 15 Q: All right. I take it from that 16 response you don't know anything about the allegation of 17 a helicopter shooting? You heard no gunshots? 18 A: No. 19 Q: You were -- or you think you were 20 around at that time? 21 A: That's what I -- I said I was part of 22 taking care of a fire and if a person, like I -- I know I 23 have pictures of the sacred fire. And it had -- it had a 24 tin roof on it and you know, you -- you got like trailers 25 off to each side of you and, like -- be like from where I
981 was sitting, I could -- I could -- I could see Dudley's 2 trailer, I could see roughly where Terry was -- was 3 living and I could see on the other side, like, where the 4 -- the helicopters were coming from, you know. 5 And that was a thing that, you know, when 6 something like that happens it's like a -- a full-scale 7 alert goes out and, I guess it's kind of like a setting 8 of tent city that all the other people, they -- you can 9 tell they're up, the lights are on, but no, that's what 10 happened. That was -- 11 Q: Okay. Well, I can tell you, Mr. 12 George, there are -- there are suggestions in some of the 13 documents that have been provided that you were the 14 shooter. 15 What do you say to that? 16 A: I never killed anybody and, you 17 know -- 18 Q: No, no. I'm just talking about the 19 helicopter. 20 A: I -- I -- people can say whatever 21 they want, you know? I didn't -- I didn't go there to 22 shoot helicopters, I didn't go there to shoot people. I 23 didn't go there to, you know, to -- I don't know, the 24 term I heard I before was make a name for myself. I 25 didn't -- I didn't go there to do that. I didn't go
991 there to look for a title or -- 2 Q: Is -- is your answer, "no"? 3 A: No, like I -- 4 Q: Did you have a -- a gun -- a firearm 5 at that point? 6 A: I have three (3) or four (4) of them 7 that I kept in my house in Kettle Point. 8 Q: All right. And I may as well ask 9 you, what kind of firearms? 10 A: It was a .22 Magnum that -- that, I 11 think the -- the police had taken it away on me for 12 hunting down by the Pinery, this -- earlier on and I know 13 that my -- my nephew had the same gun that we were using 14 and he had it taken away on him for hunting in the same 15 spot and -- 16 Q: All right. And you've described you 17 had three (3) -- three (3) guns? Two (2) or three (3) 18 guns, did you say? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: What were the others? 21 A: A .22 and a twelve (12) gauge. 22 Q: And a twelve (12) gauge is a shotgun? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. And you maintained those 25 or -- or kept those at your residence in Kettle Point?
1001 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Did you have occasion to take them to 3 the range? 4 A: Of only when we went hunting. You 5 now, it was the only thing. 6 Q: In and -- in and around this time, 7 Mr. George, we are told that there were concerns raised 8 by the Ontario Provincial Police about finding property 9 on the Army Camp lands, stolen cars, in particular? 10 Do you have any comment on that? 11 A: I know just after we moved onto the 12 land that that was -- that was an ongoing thing of -- of 13 -- I guess people bringing cars there and burning them. 14 I -- I witnessed, like, my -- my Uncle Cabbage had come 15 and got me and he -- he said that this -- this guy who, 16 his daughter, Pat, he used to live with had a truck that 17 was stolen and burnt. 18 And anyway, I went for a ride with him and 19 by the time we got there on -- on Outer Drive, the -- the 20 truck had already been loaded up and hauled away. There 21 was just a burn spot on the road. And I told him, I 22 think there was close to two (2) dozen stolen vehicles 23 brought in there and burnt in '93/'94, I think -- part of 24 '94, but it was beyond our doings. 25 Like I -- I had no knowledge of who was
1011 doing it and I remember they -- they had a thing in the - 2 - in the paper that they had caught a couple of young 3 kids from London that had gotten caught right in the act 4 of doing that and I don't remember the names of them or 5 anything like that, but I remember that's kind of like 6 what was -- kind of like brought out was that it wasn't 7 so much the people in the Camp that it was a number of 8 people. 9 To me, I -- I never had no knowledge of 10 anybody coming in there with a stolen vehicle. I -- if I 11 caught them in there, I'd chase them out myself. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Like, that was the -- that was the 14 role that I had played all the time that I was there was 15 I used to do my own perimeters too, and that was my own 16 out-of-pocket thing, that I never had nobody coming 17 along, you know, wanting to share with me what I was 18 doing or wanting to buy me some gas to help me do what I 19 was doing. 20 It was a thing that I'd done simply 21 because I -- I had this part that -- I guess it come 22 along with that part when I buried my dad there. You 23 know, it was a little bit more along the lines of the -- 24 the respect that, you know, that my dad was buried there, 25 that I'm not going to -- I'm not going to allow anybody
1021 to jeopardize that part. Plain and simple, you know. 2 Q: So, it's not something that you would 3 have permitted? 4 A: No. 5 Q: In fact, Mr. George, you had been 6 assuming a leadership role within the group; is that not 7 right? 8 A: I -- I have to understand that part 9 of my own culture is that we're all leaders and that 10 we're not -- not one (1) person, you know, has -- has the 11 one (1) single voice to -- to make decisions. It's a 12 consensus thing, that if I'm going to, you know, do 13 things, I tend to go to my witnesses as to what happened 14 to them and how did they deal with things in the past and 15 stuff like that. 16 It was a thing where some of the Elders 17 that were there, they played a big role in that too. 18 Meaning that that was their inheritance that some of 19 these people, whoever these people were that were doing 20 things like burning the cars and, I guess, trying to 21 collect insurance or whatever, trying to make it seem 22 like the -- the people in the Camp were doing it. 23 I don't think it -- it worked, whatever it 24 is they were doing. Like, I mean -- I mean in the area 25 of -- of discrediting the people in the Camp.
1031 Q: Well, Mr. George, following the 2 allegation of the helicopter shooting, we know that there 3 was a search of the various residences on the Army range 4 belonging to the occupiers by the Ontario Provincial 5 Police. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: You were present at that time? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: You were reported on the 26th of 10 August, and it's in Inquiry Document 1007619, under the 11 heading of the newspaper article, "Natives say they were 12 set up", quote, end quote, and you're described in that 13 article as Councillor Glenn George; were you in fact a 14 Councillor? 15 And if so, how did you arrive at that 16 position? 17 A: I was called a lot of different 18 things. And I never went there to -- to claim to be a 19 Councillor or a Chief or whatever. I -- I went there to 20 basically do the work that, you know, these old 21 landowners wanted done. And that's basically what I did. 22 Q: Sure. And that's -- and that's fair 23 enough. You were presented in that article nonetheless 24 as a -- as a Councillor. 25 Do you not accept that you were a
1041 councillor? 2 A: I don't know what to accept because 3 it -- it's kind of like I -- I accept that role, is the 4 part of all the men who are, you know, they're all equal. 5 And, to me, I don't -- I don't go and give orders and I 6 don't tell anybody what to do, I don't get into that. I 7 don't -- I end up being the last guy on the scene usually 8 cleaning up the mess. That's usually what I've been 9 doing. 10 Q: Okay. And in that same newspaper 11 article, and I'm going to leave it here, you are -- you 12 are seen to be commenting as a Councillor of Stoney Point 13 in relation to the allegation of a helicopter shooting. 14 A: To me, I guess when you're put in a 15 position to speak on things, you don't -- you don't go 16 and turn and say, You go talk to that old person over 17 there. I'm going to leave the old people out of that. 18 If that's who they want to talk to, they want to talk to 19 me, well then they talk to me. Well then that's what 20 happened. 21 I can't -- I can't say that I was parading 22 around and pretending to be a Councillor. Like, I've -- 23 I've been nominated for Chief on Kettle Point, that the 24 person who nominated me never come and asked me, never 25 made any notions that could they do that. It's -- it's -
1051 - that never happened. 2 And the same thing on Kettle Point. They 3 -- they tend to have a process that you got to go and 4 appear to take your name off the list. Well I had to do 5 that. 6 And the same thing in -- kind of somebody 7 nominates you for something then they have an election 8 and they -- I declined. I didn't go there to get voted 9 for or voted against or anything like that. 10 But they went ahead and done these things 11 without my consent. And that's where I am today. 12 Q: Well, let's -- sorry. Let -- let me 13 just ask you about that, then, the elections. We're told 14 that there were elections at Stoney Point. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And did you participate in those 17 elections? 18 A: I never voted for nobody. I didn't 19 vote for myself. 20 Q: Okay. So you were neither a voter 21 nor a candidate? 22 A: No. I was fishing with Dudley that 23 day. I remember that, 'cause I remember he had -- he 24 written up a letter that he declined from running for 25 Chief and running for Council. I have that.
1061 Q: Did you do any such thing? 2 A: Did I write out a letter? 3 Q: You know, well, make a formal -- 4 decline formally? 5 A: I went right into the -- into the 6 argument hall and struck my name. 'Cause I didn't see no 7 name as to who nominated me. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: So I didn't let anybody know that -- 10 I just scribbled my name off. 11 Q: Do you know the outcome of that 12 election? 13 A: I think they told me that I got the 14 same amount of votes as Carl, I think. But I never -- I 15 never went around looking around because I -- 16 Q: Well, Carl was elected the Chief. 17 We're talking about Carl George or Carl Tolsmer 18 (phonetic). 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Correct? 21 A: Yeah. He got the same amount of 22 votes as I did, I guess. That's what they told me. 23 Q: You didn't see any official results 24 then? 25 A: No, I didn't. I had no part of it.
1071 Like, I don't know how you -- it's like somebody giving 2 you a name as a Councillor and you -- you --it'd be -- 3 it's different, I guess if -- if the people who do the -- 4 do that part of nominating you, you know, show their 5 face. 6 I never got to see the person, right? 7 'Cause to me, what I -- what I was doing was the part of 8 who was nominating these other people? Like I -- I 9 didn't know. And I never -- I never looked into it but I 10 seen it where one person might nominate all of the above. 11 See, like there's things like that that 12 have happened, eh? And I just -- this wasn't my setting. 13 This wasn't my doing. This wasn't my business. And 14 that's the way I treated it. I ... 15 Q: All right. Well let me move on. 16 There are other reports, and I will look at document -- 17 I'll refer Counsel to Document Number 7000288 that was a 18 document that was provided by way of federal productions, 19 Mr. Commissioner, and it -- but in any event, it 20 describes a white Pontiac Parisienne being driven by 21 yourself, Mr. George, with Dudley George as your 22 passenger entering the built up area. 23 And there was a confrontation that ensued 24 with the Military police who were of the assumption that 25 the purpose of your going in there in this particular
1081 vehicle was to provoke a confrontation. 2 And that an MP vehicle was driven into, it 3 was rammed. And they go on to comment that this was 4 overall part of the intimidation that you would engage 5 in? 6 A: I never been into the built up area. 7 I never been in there in a white Pontiac which I never 8 owned a white Pontiac. I never drove one. 9 To me, I never took it upon myself to 10 create a confrontation with the Military. Like, I 11 remember just once where my Midge (phonetic) was 12 gathering cedar where, you know, like, stopped to visit 13 with her and asked her if you needed some help. 14 And there was a Military truck that pulled 15 up. It was trying to find out what she was doing and I 16 just chased them away. That's about the extent of the 17 confrontations that I had. 18 And I just basically told them that my 19 auntie's gathering medicine and, you know, that's it. I 20 said you're not going to interrogate nobody, you know, 21 you're just going to leave, you're going to turn around 22 and leave. And they -- that's all they did, they turned 23 around and left, like. 24 Q: You had no confrontations with the 25 Military other than that one, Mr. George?
1091 A: Oh, there was times that -- that, you 2 know, you -- you go to visit somebody and then they -- 3 they tend to pull up and I -- I remember a few times 4 where I'm visiting different people where they, in turn, 5 have visitors and -- and you see the -- the patrols pull 6 up and -- and the first thing they start doing is, you 7 can see them writing down the -- the make of the car and 8 the licence plate and all that stuff and I seen that 9 happen lots, where sometimes there was egg throwing, 10 sometimes there wasn't. 11 Sometimes there was name calling, 12 sometimes there wasn't, but it didn't bother me. Like, 13 it made no difference to me, like -- 14 Q: Well, let me ask you about an 15 incident that is reported in Inquiry Document 2002889. 16 It's an incident log report; it's dated June 12th of 17 1995, and at page 10 of that report, Captain House -- is 18 that -- is that somebody that you can recall? 19 A: Captain House, I think, had been 20 around for a while. 21 Q: Do you know him? 22 A: I personally don't know him, but I -- 23 I know what he looks like. 24 Q: All right. Fair enough. He reports 25 that yourself and two (2) other male natives threw stones
1101 at a patrol vehicle. Is this the kind of incident that 2 you were just describing for us? 3 A: I don't think they were stones. 4 Like, to me it was like fish or eggs or something like 5 that -- that, you know, that -- I know -- I know we had 6 done a lot of fishing, that these guys used to show up 7 and want to look around and see what you're doing, eh, 8 and -- 9 Q: Well, the report goes on, Mr. George, 10 to say that, in fact, you told the Military personnel, 11 Don't tell these people to quit throwing stones, they 12 were told to do that. 13 A: I don't -- 14 Q: I -- I get the impression that you 15 told them to throw the stones. 16 A: I don't remember telling anybody to 17 throw stones at anybody. If I needed some stones thrown, 18 I'd throw them myself. I -- I don't need anybody to do 19 those types of things for me and I -- I don't recall 20 throwing stones at -- at Military. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall saying 22 things to the Military like, We'll pick you up, we'll put 23 you out -- out the front gate for good? 24 A: I don't recall saying that, but I 25 know that I've heard people saying that to them.
1111 Q: But I'm just asking about yourself, 2 Mr. George. 3 A: No, I, no. 4 Q: Further, at page 10 of that same 5 report, which relates to an incident of June 22nd of 6 1995, Captain House, again, goes on to report that there 7 was a yellow bus that they had discovered. It was 8 unoccupied and evidently one (1) of his subordinates had 9 boarded the bus and found a number of items on there. 10 In any event, you had returned together 11 with three (3) others to recover the vehicle. Do you -- 12 do you remember that incident? 13 A: I remember when I -- when I got to 14 that bus there, it was -- it was along Army Camp Road 15 right by the -- the chain link fence there. Right by the 16 -- right by built-up area and all's I remember doing, was 17 having a little drive and I seen the bus down there, so I 18 went down there to check it out and -- 19 Q: And who were you with? 20 A: I think I was by myself. I don't 21 think would have had three (3) people with me. 22 Q: All right. I take it from that 23 response, though, that you're not certain who you were 24 with, if anybody. 25 A: To me, I was by myself most of the
1121 time. I never had -- 2 Q: Well, you know how lawyers are? When 3 we -- understand, "I think" -- 4 A: I never a whole entourage of people 5 like they're saying, like the majority of the time, I 6 remember there was just me on that Camp. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: So, I don't know where they got all 9 these people from. 10 Q: So, you -- you recall the incidents? 11 A: What? 12 Q: Do you recall the incident? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: You come up to the bus and what 15 happens? 16 A: There was a guy right on top of the 17 motor when I got there and he had already taken the -- 18 the -- the rotor -- the -- 19 Q: From the distributor? 20 A: Yeah, he had the distributor cap off 21 and he took the rotor off. 22 Q: Okay. He took the -- 23 A: And when I seen him crawling down I 24 said, What the hell are you doing? That's all, that's 25 all I remember.
1131 Q: All right. Do you recall saying 2 anything further than that, Mr. George? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Well, let me ask you this. Did that 5 upset you, that you had somebody on the motor, that they 6 appeared to be removing parts that would surely disable 7 the vehicle? 8 A: Yeah. I was -- 9 Q: Wouldn't that upset you? Weren't you 10 upset by that? 11 A: There were things that made me upset 12 but it wasn't stuff like that. That was a -- that was a 13 gimme thing that -- 14 Q: Would that be something to upset you 15 enough to utter a remark like, I'll get my gun and I'll 16 get my rifle and kill you? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Have you said anything like that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Because I can tell you those kinds of 21 comments are attributed to you and I want to give you the 22 opportunity to speak to that. 23 A: I don't know how to speak to it when 24 it isn't true. Like, I just said no -- 25 Q: All right.
1141 A: -- that I didn't say that. I -- I 2 don't know how to tell you no, no, no, no, it didn't 3 happen. 4 Q: So, you deny that? You deny that? 5 You deny saying that? 6 A: I was there. All's I did was 7 basically go to my car and grab the rotor because -- I 8 put it back on and put the distributor cap on and drove 9 it away. That's all I did, I didn't -- I didn't get into 10 debates. 11 I know that there was a lot of things 12 that, you know the -- the people that were inside the 13 barracks were kind of like, to me, they were grasping at 14 straws too. You know, like, I -- I've heard it from, you 15 know, that John -- oh, Jeez, I can't remember his last 16 name -- telling me that he was about ready to retire. 17 And in the time that he was there he -- he 18 learnt the truth of what was going on. You know, like, I 19 don't know if that was in his, you know, testimonies of 20 whatever. Like, but I know that I had a couple times met 21 with him along the road and just we talked about, How's 22 things going, how -- how is it, you know, and -- you 23 know, when you -- when you find -- you're -- you're given 24 an opportunity to speak to some of these people one (1) 25 on one (1) and you -- and you get to, you know, have a
1151 conversation that, you know, that you kind of hope that 2 they would take that into the Camp and have, you know, 3 like, a little in-depth meeting with the people in there 4 to -- to express, you know, those types of concerns that 5 we weren't here to be at war-like, we weren't here to, 6 you know, to, I guess, crash around in the -- in the 7 Camp. 8 Because I -- I didn't go there to do that. 9 I -- I went there to, you know, to try and raise an 10 awareness that these people were coming home. That's -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: That's my intentions. 13 Q: There is another incident, Mr. 14 George, dated, apparently, to the 27th of June, and is on 15 -- at page 12 of the same report I referred to earlier. 16 And it was reported that on the 26th of June Captain 17 House put barricades on the first road north of the 18 observation post. 19 First of all, do you know where that -- 20 where that is I'm referring to or -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- or is being referred to? 23 A: What you're referring to is, this is 24 -- this is the road that goes back by the, like, the -- 25 the soccer fields.
1161 Q: Okay. Well, allow me just to attempt 2 to describe that for the record, as what -- to what 3 you're pointing at, because, you see, the record will 4 only pick up verbal cue. 5 You're indicating a road that runs north- 6 south on the -- I'm going to get this wrong -- 7 easternmost portion of the built-up area? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: You're right. And the last -- 11 there's a building right there that I know that, because 12 of the -- the hill in the wi -- in the wintertime, it's 13 real steep and icy. 14 Q: That's Moses Hill you're referring 15 to? 16 A: Moses Hill. 17 Q: That you've described for us earlier. 18 A: A lot of people couldn't make it up 19 the hill or -- or go down the hill without, you know, 20 like, skidding off the road, eh. And so, this was -- 21 this was the only other road that going through the Army 22 tank that would come out this way, in there. 23 And what they were doing, there's -- 24 there's a creek along here, that they put those things 25 along the creek.
1171 Q: Okay. I think there's a paper -- 2 A: Barb wire fence -- 3 Q: Yeah, just let me interrupt you 4 there, if I may briefly, Mr. George. There's a paper 5 copy of that map in front of you; do you have that? I'm 6 going to ask that that be assigned a -- an exhibit 7 number. I think that would be 140, Mr. Registrar. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-140. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-140: Document No. 1002409, page 13 11 map of Ipperwash Military 12 Reserve marked by Witness 13 Glenn George, Feb 01/05 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: And would you be good enough, Mr. 17 George, just to take that pen there to your side and 18 indicate with a Number 1 the location of what you were 19 just describing to us and then just continue with that 20 description if you would. 21 A: Okay, the -- there's a -- there's a 22 road that goes by the -- the sports track, okay? And it 23 -- and it goes back, I think they call it the mortar 24 range. And it -- and it goes across towards -- comes out 25 by the dump, okay? And where I was, was on this --
1181 there's a -- there's a creek that runs along there -- 2 Q: I'm sorry, Mr. George, I -- I perhaps 3 should have asked you to make those markings later. If 4 you could continue to refer as your describing this for 5 us on the map on the screen and then I will get you -- 6 A: There's -- 7 Q: -- later to make those markings on 8 the paper copy in front or you. 9 A: There's a -- there's a creek that 10 runs in there, and it must be right along here. There's 11 a creek there, maybe that's it, it don't look like it but 12 it's in that area. And like I said before, a lot of 13 people couldn't travel the hill and so this was the other 14 only way down to get to the lake and right there was -- 15 this is the soccer field. 16 Right there they had these -- these square 17 point -- pointed things. They had them across the road. 18 There's no lights. Sun goes down, it's all tree covered 19 and it's dark. 20 And that's what they had across the road 21 right there. And on the highway here, they had right 22 where the crick was, they blocked this road off with 23 steel fence posts and barbed wire. 24 And that's the part where that -- that's 25 the stuff that I yanked off the road. I said --
1191 Q: Now -- and would you just now take 2 that pen and mark on P-140 the location of where this 3 fence post -- fence posts, rather and barbed wire was 4 that you yanked off the road? 5 A: (INDICATING) 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: If I can also just get you to put a 10 Number 2, in the area that you've described for us as 11 Moses Hill. You can just put a Number 2 there. 12 A: (INDICATING) 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right, thank you. Could you go 17 on then, and just describe what it was that -- that 18 happened when you, as you say, yanked this barricade 19 away? 20 A: Yeah, I -- I was in the process of -- 21 of like I went and did a -- into the -- past the soccer 22 field to look for these -- these big spike things that 23 were used on the -- on that little road, like a tank 24 road, eh? 25 And I didn't find them, so I went back to
1201 -- to where this -- they put these on the road, eh? And 2 I proceeded -- I just hooked the chain on them and drove 3 away with the tractor, eh? And -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: That's when the Military guys come 6 out to watch me. Like I didn't -- I didn't go there to 7 look for a confrontation. I just went there to open up 8 the road. 9 Q: But you did have a con -- 10 confrontation with the MPs -- 11 A: Well it was -- 12 Q: -- did you not? 13 A: -- it was -- it was by their doings 14 not by mine. And I was -- I went there -- I told you, I 15 done what I done. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: You know, wrapped the chain around 18 and just yanked them out and drove away with them, that's 19 all I did. 20 Q: All right. We know that you drove, 21 or it's reported that you drove the tractor into the MP 22 vehicle. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You acknowledge that? 25 A: Yeah.
1211 Q: All right. And you were ultimately 2 charged, criminally, as a result of that? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And it's alleged that you had 5 threatened the MP's that if they didn't get off your 6 land, that they would be shot. 7 A: I never told anybody they'd be shot. 8 If I was to going to shoot somebody, I'd just shoot him. 9 I wouldn't tell him, I'm going to go get a gun and shoot 10 you. 11 Q: Tell us about -- tell us about that 12 incident with the MP's. What -- what was going on? What 13 happened when they came up? What would provoke you to 14 drive a tractor into their vehicle? 15 A: What provoked me was the part that I 16 went over to them and I told them that, These things that 17 you put on the road are very dangerous. You know, I work 18 in the construction business, I know what it's like to 19 deal with, you know, fifty thousand (50,000) commuters in 20 a day. And I know that if we're going to block the road 21 off, you've got to have signs, you've got to have lights, 22 you've got to have delinears, you've got to have all of 23 the above. 24 And they didn't have nothing, other than 25 these spike things. See, and that's where I come from.
1221 I had that understanding that, what I told them, I said 2 that, You know, if you're going to put these things up, 3 you know, you're going to put reflectors and all of that 4 other stuff. And I just told them, I said that, I 5 wouldn't want to be in your shoes if some of these people 6 get hurt by what you've put on the road. 7 See and that's -- that's the thing. Like, 8 what brought that up, was my cousin Stewart was on a 9 motorbike and he come through that road and that's what 10 he had to dodge on his motorbike, was those spike things. 11 See, that's what started this thing. 12 Q: Okay. Well, we -- we heard from your 13 cousin Stewart. And, in fact, he showed us one (1) of 14 those items that he tells us he collected at that 15 location. 16 A: Oh yeah. 17 Q: But I just want to ask you, further 18 to the incident itself, you report now, that you had a 19 discussion with the MP's. Did you not saying something 20 to them to the effect that you know where they live? 21 A: No. No. I never told them that. I 22 told them, I said that, you know, If any of these people 23 get hurt because of what you guys are doing, I said that, 24 you know, basically there would be something that would 25 come out of this, not by my doing, probably after I got
1231 better after, you know, like, getting wounded by these 2 things. But, no, there wasn't no -- no threat of that 3 sort, to me. 4 Q: Did they say anything to you? 5 A: To me, all they said was, Or what? 6 And they said that about thirty (30) times, Or what? And 7 I said something again, they said, Or what? Or what, 8 what are you going to do, or what; that was -- I didn't - 9 - I -- 10 Q: Were you armed at that time, Mr. 11 George? 12 A: Pardon? 13 Q: Were you armed? And by that I mean 14 did you have a firearm? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Were they? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Is there anything else about this 19 incident that you can tell us? 20 A: Only thing that I can mention to 21 anybody is that I got a criminal record now because of 22 this. 23 Q: In fact, you were convicted -- 24 A: And my -- and my statement was to 25 them, is that, This is my land and you're trespassing on
1241 my land and you're also trying to block off roads on my 2 land. And that's -- that's where, you know, my 3 statements were to -- was that, You don't come in here 4 and then build roads and then block them off, you know. 5 Q: All right. There was another 6 incident with a Military police by the name of Howard 7 Simcoe (phonetic), or a Military -- Military personnel I 8 should say. I don't know whether he was a -- an MP or 9 not. 10 A: That's what it said on his shirt, MP. 11 Q: Tell us about that. 12 A: He's just another one of those -- I 13 don't know what -- what you would term it, he was my -- 14 my nephew -- this thing started with me. I was -- I was 15 at my mom's doing laundry and my nephew come there and 16 said that the Military or somebody's going around 17 flattening tires and all the -- all the bicycles and 18 motorbikes and trailers and cars, everything was getting 19 flattened. That's what started -- 20 Q: Where were these tires being 21 flattened? 22 A: All over. 23 Q: All over the -- 24 A: All over the base. 25 Q: Okay. And whose tires were being
1251 flattened? 2 A: Everybody's. Everybody's bicycles, 3 everybody's motor bikes, everybody's cars. 4 Q: Now, just so I understand, when you 5 say everybody, I understand there were also Military 6 people that were on the Base -- on -- on the land. 7 A: Yep. 8 Q: So their tires were being flattened 9 as well? 10 A: No. The guy who you just mentioned 11 was found right about there. 12 Q: You're indicating just an area to the 13 south of possibly -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- the middle of what's marked as 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park on P-40? 17 A: It was Matheson Drive and we used to 18 take this road to go down there because we had -- the -- 19 the bus and trailer. People lived down here in the -- in 20 the summer months when it was hot. 21 Q: The beach area? 22 A: Yeah. They didn't live down these 23 areas because there was too many mosquitoes, so they -- 24 they moved to the beach. And when my -- when my nephew 25 came there he told me that they -- they're flattening all
1261 the tires. And well basically my response was that I -- 2 I had this understanding that there was young kids at the 3 beach that were, you know, they were there camped out. 4 And I don't know what these army people were planning on 5 doing. 6 It -- it was my -- my understanding that 7 I'm -- I'm going to go and look after these little kids 8 first and make sure that they're okay. That's what I was 9 going to attempt to do after coming from my mother's 10 place. Coming down this road and -- and that's about 11 where Mr. Howard Simcoe was walking down the road. 12 Q: And...? 13 A: And that's the end. That's what I 14 asked him, you know. What are you doing out here? 15 Because he wasn't in the camp, he was on Matheson Drive. 16 You see, to me after what I just got done hearing and it 17 was kind of like, he's kind of out of place here. 18 Like, he wasn't inside the -- the 19 perimeters of the Military camp, he was on Matheson 20 Drive. And from what I heard from my nephew Marlin about 21 the tires being slashed and all that, and then you see 22 this guy with a Military shirt that doesn't have a 23 vehicle and he's walking down the road. This is what 24 happened. I went up to him and I asked him, what are you 25 doing?
1271 And his response to me was, I'm from Rama 2 (phonetic), I don't want to be here. He was almost 3 crying then. And when I heard him say he was from Rama 4 that's when I almost freaked out. From Rama, well what 5 the hell are you doing here? 6 And that's when, you know, he -- he's kind 7 of sobbing away about, I don't know, he must have dome 8 something. I don't known what he done. I -- can only 9 assume that what I heard he -- he was part of what was 10 being done. 11 Q: Did you ask him if he was involved in 12 slashing tires? 13 A: Oh yeah, yeah. 14 Q: Did you get a response? 15 A: He was crying away and that's what he 16 said. I'm from Rama, I -- I don't know why I'm here. 17 And I said, You come to help us out did you? And he -- 18 he said yeah and I said, Wrong answer. Because I heard 19 that so many times about people coming to help us out. 20 Are you coming here to physically help us out of this 21 Camp or are you going to come and help us? And he gave 22 the wrong answer. 23 I just told him, I says you got the wrong 24 suit on to help us. And he took it off. He -- he, like 25 I -- yeah, I've heard stories about he had that shirt
1281 ripped off him. No, I just yanked it out of his hand. 2 He took it off himself. And that's what happened. 3 Q: Other Military personnel arrived 4 then? 5 A: They came up along Army Camp Road and 6 where they come from I don't know. I don't know where 7 they come from. All's I know is that by the time I went 8 to look at the bus on the beach and I came back, he was 9 gone up the road. He was already at the barracks. 10 Q: Was it -- was there anything else 11 that came out of this incident, Mr. George, that you can 12 recall for us now? 13 A: Well, that's -- that's the part of 14 where -- there was an old guy that -- that was working as 15 a commissioner. Because on my way up I stopped into the 16 -- into the gatehouse there and I told them what was 17 going on. 18 Q: So what did you say? 19 A: I told them that, you know, that 20 everybody's tires are flat thanks to you guys. And 21 that's when I seen Howard Simcoe was sitting in the -- in 22 this truck right at the gate. And he was facing outward. 23 And he was in there, like, he was crying away. 24 Q: This would have been after your 25 involvement with him just earlier?
1291 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. And when you say the 3 "main gate" that would be in the built up area? At the 4 gatehouse? 5 A: At the gatehouse. 6 Q: Right. And the commissioner that was 7 working there, would that be George Gange (phonetic)? 8 A: George Gange was there. I think he 9 was driving a truck, but the commissionaires were older 10 guys, old -- that just basically worked inside the 11 gatehouse. 12 Q: Okay -- 13 A: I don't know -- I don't know what 14 Gange's job was, but he -- he's the guy that tried to 15 kick me and -- 16 Q: Okay. I want to move into that in a 17 moment, but with respect firstly to Mr. Simcoe, what was 18 his condition relative to consumption of alcohol? 19 A: He just reeked of it. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: So go on, tell us what happens at the 25 -- at the front gate.
1301 A: It was one of those things that -- 2 that I seen him while he was in that -- in that -- it was 3 a Chevy 4x4 painted green with camouflage paint job on 4 it. And he was kind of pointing the way to -- kind of 5 like doing his identification of me and that's when I ran 6 right over to the truck and I just -- do you care to 7 point now? You didn't want to point down the road. 8 And he wanted so much to get out of that 9 truck, eh? He was in the middle. There was another guy 10 on his -- on his one side and that Gange guy was in the 11 driver's seat and he was in the middle. 12 And when I -- when I got to the gatehouse, 13 I -- and I seen him doing that, it was like -- I heard in 14 the courtroom that old guy said that I knocked him down 15 and I -- I never touched nobody. 16 Alls I did was I went up there and I went 17 aaaaaaaarrrggghhhh, like that and that old guy fell down. 18 That's -- I never touched nobody and 19 that's what happened. 20 Q: You were convicted, nonetheless, of 21 assault? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: See, that's the thing. Like to me, 25 that's part of this whole process that I've been
1311 incriminated by people from another Reserve, you know? 2 In the courtroom, I go to the courtroom and there's 3 Joanne Rogers, another one that's writing up all of these 4 charges on me. 5 Like, to me, that's the part where I 6 thought that if you had First Nation people in these -- 7 in these settings where they were going to help you and 8 they just a part of the process. They write you up the 9 same. 10 So it didn't make no difference. It make 11 no difference if you had family in the policing or family 12 in the Military, family in the courtroom. It make no 13 difference, treat you accordingly. 14 Q: Mr. George, at Inquiry Document 15 2002889 which is an incident log, and it deals with the - 16 - with this incident we've just been talking about of 17 July -- pardon me, June 28th, 1995; it's reported that 18 you chased the Military vehicle onto the base from Army 19 Camp Road. 20 A: Never happened. 21 Q: It's then reported that you got out 22 of your vehicle. Now you acknowledge that, certainly? 23 A: Oh, yeah. 24 Q: And that you approached the guard 25 shack and pushed Donald Robert Stephens (phonetic), a
1321 security guard. I'm assuming that's the commissionaire 2 you've referred to? 3 A: Hmm hmm. I don't know him but I 4 guess that's what happened. I -- I just told you what I 5 done. 6 Q: The allegation, though, and I -- I'm 7 -- I want to be fair with you, Mr. George, is that you 8 pushed this individual. 9 A: I just said no. I never pushed him. 10 I -- 11 Q: And that you then approached range 12 patrol officer Arthur Gange (phonetic) and started 13 yelling at Gange to get off your land? 14 A: I don't think that happened, no. It 15 was -- it was more focussed around Mr. Simcoe. 16 Q: All right. And it's then reported 17 that you punched Gange twice. 18 A: No, I never touched him. He's the 19 one that kicked me. 20 Q: And then -- then it's reported that 21 he did kick you. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: I remember he kicked me but I never 25 punched him.
1331 Q: And then I understand at that point, 2 from the report, that an MP stepped in and that you left, 3 were subsequently charged with two (2) counts of assault. 4 A: The MP never stepped in, all he did 5 was point his gun at me. 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: He was on the other side of the 8 fence, at the gate. He just held a gun at me and I 9 remember Worm says, Glenn he's got a gun. I said, Yeah 10 well you're going to have to use it, you know, don't just 11 point it at me. And that's when he put it away. And I 12 just walked away. 13 That was -- I don't know how they 14 sensationalise that kind of a story. To me, I was the 15 gun -- I was the guy that had the gun on me. And -- and 16 that's what happened. 17 Q: Okay. Well, let me just -- let me 18 just talk a little further about that. As a result of 19 that, you were charged, right? I think you've told us 20 earlier that you had no criminal record until you came to 21 the Army Base? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And, in fact, you were charged with 24 two (2) counts of assault and convicted? 25 A: Yeah.
1341 Q: One (1) charge of mischief under -- 2 I'm assuming it's under five thousand (5,000). I'm not 3 sure what it was at that point. 4 A: I think that's what it was. 5 Q: And I would -- I suspect that that's 6 in relation to the tearing down of the barricades you've 7 already described to us? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: You were convicted as well for 10 uttering threats as a result of this incident? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And for that you received a 13 suspended sentence and were placed on probation for 14 fifteen (15) months? 15 A: Yeah. I -- the part that I -- I 16 would like to add to that is that if that was the case, 17 like, to me, I, like everybody else, I read the paper. I 18 read in the Forest Standard later on that George Gange is 19 selling cottages for, you know, on Kettle Point and he's 20 got his -- his picture in the paper, he's a real estate 21 agent. 22 If somebody had made threats to somebody 23 like that, why is he right back over there selling, you 24 know, the properties? Like, to me, if there was such a 25 threat, wouldn't you go find your business elsewhere?
1351 To me, I don't believe that part. Just 2 like he don't believe it, to go right back into the same 3 area that he's talking about and wanting to sell real 4 estate. See that's what made humorous to me, that he 5 didn't fear that stuff that went on, it was all just a 6 big act, a big show, that they got -- whoever it is that 7 they can make a story up, that they're going to listen to 8 them. 9 Never mind listening to the people in the 10 Camp. Never mind listening to what they have to say. 11 Let's just take his word for it and that's what happened. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: To this day I've got him to thank for 14 having a criminal record. 15 Q: With respect to the incident that had 16 initially led to this, that is to say the tires being 17 slashed and such, being flattened I think is the -- I'm 18 not sure how you put it but you will correct me if I -- 19 if I don't quote you properly. 20 A: I think being flattened would be -- 21 there -- there's a whole different term, I guess, if -- 22 say if you run over a nail, you can fix it, where if you 23 slash it on the side, it's pretty well junk. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Regardless as to how you want to view
1361 it, they're -- they're basically garbage after that. 2 Q: But as a result of that, you had 3 attempted to have an investigation occur by the Ontario 4 Provincial Police? 5 A: I thought, yeah, maybe -- 6 Q: Did anything -- 7 A: -- nothing -- nothing that I ever 8 thought, you know, would happen, happened. You know, I 9 kind of thought that -- 10 Q: Well, what did you think would 11 happen; let's start with that? 12 A: I thought that maybe they would -- 13 they would raise the awareness of things like that being 14 done when, you know, when there's a peaceful protest 15 being done over land that's in dispute, that they would - 16 - they would, you know, find a way to -- to build stats 17 on a person to make it seem like, oh, they're -- they're 18 criminals and they've got to be dealt with in that 19 fashion. 20 Well, I guess, me, my own self, knowing 21 where my dad was born and raised and explaining to them 22 that this is a part of my inheritance that, because 23 somebody's occupying other than myself, then that's where 24 the final say rests. 25 That's what I seen happen come out of the
1371 courtroom, that the lawyer who I was constantly telling, 2 meaning Jeffrey House, I was telling him that, This is my 3 land, the place where I was, I was on my land and they 4 didn't want to talk about that issue in there and that's 5 how come I was convicted of these charges. 6 Q: Did you have a trial on that? Was 7 there an actual trial? 8 A: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, that 9 this is what come out of it. I -- I was given four (4) 10 twenty-five dollar ($25) fines for those four (4) 11 charges. I had to pay a hundred dollars ($100). 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Mr. George, in 1995 we have different 16 reports, one (1) of which is reported at Inquiry Document 17 7000308, which essentially talks about a shift in the 18 defacto leadership at the Base and that the new 19 leadership, if I can put it that way, centred around a 20 non-elected more confrontational Glenn George. 21 A: To me, statements can happen and, you 22 know, people will come and go and they'll say whatever 23 they want and I -- I got no control over what they say. 24 All's I know is that, you know, that the things that I 25 participated in were all ceremonial and the things within
1381 that realm of it is -- I basically accepted the role of a 2 subordinate head man that my Uncle Abe had volunteered to 3 be this head man and in that ceremony it was understood 4 between me and him that he was going to be the witness 5 and he said that he would do it as long as I would be the 6 guy there to do the work and whatever work that was, I 7 agreed that -- in the ceremony that I would do it. 8 And that's the part of it. The part of it 9 was to understand the old ancient history of Aazhoodena 10 Anjibek. And the understanding that at one (1) time 11 there were seventy (70) head men and to understand that 12 part of, you're going to serve your own people, that's 13 all it is. 14 Q: Just in relation to your earlier 15 comment with respect to your discussion at the -- with 16 the Military police, with Arthur Gange and others, I'm -- 17 I'm going to refer you to your own statement that you 18 gave to the SIU, Mr. George. Do you recall giving a 19 statement to the SIU? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: To one Mr. Allen on the 14th of 22 October, 1995? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And you are reported at page 27 of 25 that, that in your own words in discussing this incident,
1391 you say, I never touched anybody and I'm going to kind of 2 jump in here at about fourth down the line, it's at -- 3 it's Tab 13, Mr. Commissioner, of the documents in front 4 of you. 5 "All's I said to the guy at the front 6 gate is, I know where you live. I 7 says, I know where each and every one 8 (1) of you fuckers live. I had two (2) 9 years to figure it out. It's no big 10 secret. 11 That was the death threats and with the 12 -- the mischief out there on the field, 13 they had those things that -- that 14 punctured tires, they had barbed wire 15 right up across the road and all's I 16 did was rip them out with the fucking 17 tractor." 18 Okay? 19 A: Yeah, I -- I -- 20 Q: Do you acknowledge saying those kinds 21 of things? 22 A: I want to acknowledge that part of 23 the statement here was given in the place where I now 24 live and that whole business of the language was because 25 of my frustrations of the day. Okay?
1401 Q: Well, you'll agree with me that the 2 whole statement is filled with expletives, right? Swear 3 words. 4 A: Yeah. Yeah. 5 Q: But you'll also agree with me, Mr. 6 George, that what you told the SIU on that date in 7 October of '95 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: But you'll also agree with me, Mr. 12 George, that what you told the SIU on that date, in 13 October of '95 is a little at variance with what you're 14 telling us -- what you've told us here today about that? 15 A: I think I'm pretty close to what 16 happened but -- 17 Q: Right -- 18 A: -- I never -- 19 Q: And I realize that this is -- 20 A: -- made no threat -- 21 Q: -- a long time -- 22 A: -- to anybody's life, eh? 23 Q: I realize -- 24 A: I might have swore -- 25 Q: -- this is almost ten (10) years --
1411 A: -- a lot -- at -- at Wayne Allen, but 2 that's him. I never -- I didn't swear at just anybody 3 it's because of the -- the setting, too, was -- you know. 4 All this stuff, all bombards you after the fact and 5 that's why I was getting mad. That's all. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: You know? 8 Q: And the night you understand -- 9 A: I told him that, eh? 10 Q: I'm sorry? 11 A: I told Wayne Allen that. And he was 12 in the place where I live, eh? 13 Q: All right. And you'll understand, 14 Mr. George, the reason that I put these to you is that I 15 think we need to be fair to you as -- as a Commission, 16 give you an opportunity to speak to that. 17 A: To what happen with at the -- at the 18 gatehouse? 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: To me, like, what I got down there is 21 pretty close to what happened. I'm -- I never touched 22 anybody. The one who I was going to reach out and touch 23 was old Howard Simcoe. 24 To me, I don't know where you draw the 25 line just to -- somebody from another Reserve that --
1421 that shows up there and wants to do these things under 2 the cover of darkness does not sit well with me. 3 And maybe that's just me, I don't know. I 4 know that the things that -- that I put a lot of time and 5 effort into trying to keep whatever it is about me in the 6 -- in the part of this law abiding thing. 7 And that -- I didn't go out there looking 8 for a criminal record, either. But I got it. I didn't 9 go there looking for title or a councillor's position or 10 a name. I didn't go there for that either. But I got 11 it. 12 I don't know how to speak to you on these 13 things that people take it upon themselves to grant you 14 this what -- whatever it is they granted me, never -- 15 never come and help me pay my bills or anything. It 16 costed me. 17 It's cost me tires. It's cost me time. 18 Cost me my -- everything. My -- you know, I'm -- I'm 19 viewed as a -- I got a criminal record now, thank you. 20 You know, like this is something that my 21 dad explained to me that there was times that he was so 22 mad and there was times that, yeah, he wanted to look at 23 them in the eye but they weren't the ones that were 24 making the decisions. 25 They were just here in person, and
1431 personally doing what they're told to do. And if they're 2 there in person they're going to make stats on you, then 3 that's their job. They're winning by doing what they're 4 doing. 5 And for me to -- I don't know how -- I 6 never heard these things being spoken at any locatee 7 meeting as to where we are in this place and time. And 8 that was never talked about because that was unchartered 9 ground. 10 And I didn't just go on doing what I felt 11 was best, I constantly talked to the Elders, -- what is 12 it with these people. 13 Q: Let me just interrupt you there 14 briefly, Mr. George, and I want to just complete talking 15 to you about the incident where you removed the 16 barricades and the confrontation with the MPs at that 17 point. 18 I guess what puzzles me is that we had 19 been told by others that there was some kind of an 20 agreement as between the occupiers and the Military as to 21 respective areas that people would keep to? 22 A: That there is not a new statement 23 just because it comes from you. I remember hearing that 24 long time ago about the graveyards in the Park and the 25 graveyards in the Camp that they were known to be there
1441 and they knew whoever the authority position was that 2 they were supposed to have fences there and there wasn't. 3 And they were supposed to leave the grave 4 markers alone and they never. So why is it today that 5 because of time that who's to blame? Like am I to blame 6 because their inactions? 7 Or is it I'm the blame because somebody 8 needs a target? Somebody needs to made the scapegoat. 9 Somebody needs to be made the symbol as to -- you know. 10 You people want to go take back lands, you want to go 11 take back your country, well, we'll lock you up. 12 It's no different than what happened to 13 Leonard Pelletier, same thing. And the reason he was 14 locked up was because they knew that the people loved 15 him. And they loved him because he done the work of 16 gathering the wood, gathering the medicines, gathering, 17 you know, their own people to do whatever was ceremonies, 18 there you go. 19 So that's how they deal with those things. 20 If you're going to be the symbol of taking back your 21 land, well we're going to lock you up. And we're going 22 to do whatever we want to do to you to get you. And 23 that's what they did to me. 24 Q: Were you aware at the time, Mr. 25 George, that there had been perhaps even an informal
1451 agreement as between the Military and your people that 2 they would maintain respective areas? 3 A: I understood that, you know, those -- 4 those places like I mentioned, that were suppose to be 5 fenced off and kept out of bounds but that never 6 happened. 7 Q: I -- and I appreciate those 8 historical grievances still existed. But I -- I'm trying 9 to ask you if you could focus on -- just on that issue 10 for a moment. 11 A: That's what I'm trying to do. I'm 12 trying to focus on that part that yeah, there was places 13 that even they were told but they don't listen to nobody. 14 They must look for somebody I guess from an elected 15 system, I don't know. 16 All's I know is that I know for a fact, 17 family members have went there and made those types of 18 acknowledgements to them and where it goes from there, I 19 don't know. Like I can't -- I can't put a face on those 20 people. I don't know -- I know it happen time and time 21 again, you know. 22 We -- we've got Elders in the community 23 that are, you know, ones that used to stress that point 24 that they're now buried in that same place. And I can't 25 change that. I can't bring them back to life and say is
1461 this what happened? They're a part of what took place. 2 Q: You see from your -- from your 3 responses, Mr. George, I get the sense that because those 4 agreements with respect to the burial grounds that are 5 located on there, you've described the location of them 6 for us, that those weren't respected, that somehow any 7 arrangement that might have been made with respect to 8 keeping to your own areas, if I can put it that way, 9 should not be respected, is that -- am I understanding 10 you properly? 11 A: No. It -- it's more along the lines 12 of -- of -- say you moved back on there and you get 13 hungry you want to go and look for food and you go to -- 14 you don't go knock on army's door because they ain't 15 going to give it to you. You go fishing or you go 16 hunting or you go gather berries, you gather nuts or 17 whatever. 18 I mean you don't worry about that part. 19 And that's the way it is, you know. Somebody says you 20 can't go over here, you know, or you can't go there. I 21 know for a fact that my whole family, relatives, Kettle 22 Point no matter where, if they got to gather medicine, 23 they always went there and gathered medicine. They 24 didn't -- they didn't wait for somebody to give them 25 permission.
1471 Like that -- that part of going to get 2 firewood. Firewood is different. You got -- you got go 3 in there and you got to haul it out in a -- in a tractor 4 and trailer and pickup truck and stuff like that. 5 Whereas if you're going in there to gather your 6 medicines, you go walking in there and that's the way 7 it's always been done. 8 That never -- that never ceased. That 9 always took place even though the army was there. That's 10 the way it is. 11 Q: I intend to move on, Mr. George, but 12 before I do, as a result of your being charged in this 13 incident, you -- you eventually obtained another systemic 14 charge and that is that you were charged for failing to 15 appear in court. 16 A: I think they wrote me up half a dozen 17 times for failing to appear. 18 Q: I'm not -- not too interested in what 19 they wrote you up for, but were you -- and in fact were 20 convicted of fail to appear or were you not? 21 A: Yeah, I think I was charged but I 22 think they -- they -- they kind of put it aside because 23 of -- I think I was able to prove to them that there was, 24 I don't know, if I was in court at another day. 25 Like I had so many court dates I could
1481 write a book on them over this place. And it wasn't the 2 fact that just because it was confusing, it was more 3 along the fact of they were deciding these things, you 4 know, you go to court, Oh, by the way you got another 5 charge. 6 You know, it's no different than me walk 7 into the Park. Oh everybody gets charged. I wasn't even 8 there and yet I got charged. 9 Q: All right. With respect to this 10 charge of fail to appear, did anybody advise you as to 11 whether you needed to or not -- needed to or not appear 12 in court? 13 A: To me, there was -- there was so much 14 things that I was doing, dealing with lawyers and stuff 15 like that, as to trying to put a working agreement in 16 place with the Council in Kettle Point, and that we never 17 ever did get any kind of legal help or support or advice 18 to deal with these types of issues. 19 And I'm not here to beg for that either 20 because I -- I'll tend to those things myself. And I've 21 seen how every time something like this comes up, I -- I 22 know the politics on the Reserve that, Yeah I'm a band 23 member and I don't get that same kind of help or support 24 than elected officials. I seen that and I known that. 25 See, and this is a thing that I have to go
1491 and fend for myself. I've got to go get my lawyers. And 2 at the time there wasn't a lawyer in this whole area of 3 Lambton County that would help argue my point. 4 See, and it was through the Chiefs of 5 Ontario's office that I was able to find Jeffrey House to 6 -- to help me. That's who recommended him. See, and I 7 didn't -- I didn't have any say on the recommendation. 8 When he spoke about me making a deal with these people, I 9 just accepted it because I was to court, so many times, 10 over the same charges. 11 Like, I don't know offhand how many times 12 I was there but I was getting tired of going to Sarnia. 13 And then if I got charged for a failing to appear, it 14 wasn't because of that, it was because of how many times 15 I got to go there. 16 Q: All right. Well, I don't have any 17 record and I'm not suggesting, Mr. George, that we have a 18 record of your being convicted for fail to appear, 19 although -- 20 A: I don't acknowledge that part because 21 I don't -- I don't see it on my record. I don't know 22 what -- what ever become of it. I know that I've been 23 charged with a lot of different charges, that I don't see 24 them on my record. 25 Q: And the only question that I ask --
1501 that I wanted to -- to ask you arising out of that is 2 whether anybody told you, anybody in a position of 3 authority as to whether or not you should appear in 4 court? 5 A: Under my own personal understanding, 6 if I get a court date, then usually I try to attend. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I don't make it a practice of going 9 in the opposite direction, hey. It's -- it's like I'll 10 face these things. If I've got to go to court, I've got 11 to go to court, you know. It's -- it's not a scary 12 thing. Like, yeah, it's like that setting, but, you 13 know, for me -- I don't know if I should maybe write a 14 book. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps on that -- on 16 that thought, I would ask the -- Mr. Commissioner, if 17 this might be appropriate to take the lunch break. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 19 be an excellent time, let's take our lunch break now. 20 You could use a break too? 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 24 adjourned until 1:45 25
1511 --- Upon recessing at 12:32 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 1:50 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: Mr. George, before the break we had 9 left off, and I had put to you a number of circumstances 10 where you are named in various capacities and I think I - 11 - I will just continue with that line for the time being. 12 I want to refer you -- and I'll refer 13 other Counsel, to a document -- Inquiry Document Number 14 7000102 which is an OPP report, dated July 1st of 1995, 15 wherein, Mr. George, it is alleged that you were informed 16 about a warrant for your arrest. 17 However, at that moment there were some, 18 according to this document, thirty (30) to thirty-five 19 (35) people around you and because of the superior 20 numbers it would appear that the OPP chose not to execute 21 the arrest warrant for you. 22 Do you recall that at all? 23 A: I can recall several times being in 24 that type of predicament, but I need to know locations. 25 Q: Let me -- let me just carry on then;
1521 that there was some suggestion, then, that you had 2 advised the OPP that you would turn yourself into the 3 Forest Detachment of the OPP the next morning, that is on 4 July the 2nd of 1995, and that you had requested that 5 Captain Smith be in attendance when you turned yourself 6 in. 7 Does that assist you at all in recalling 8 whether, first of all, in recalling that event? 9 A: I don't -- I don't recall that event, 10 because I myself, I only remember meeting Captain Smith 11 and that was when the people moved into the barracks and 12 that's around the 29th of July. 13 So I -- that's the only time I met Captain 14 Smith or ever asked for Captain Smith or -- I didn't know 15 of him until the 29th and that was when the -- the people 16 moved into the barracks. 17 Q: I see. And apparently as part of the 18 same incident, it -- it goes on to indicate that the 19 natives, now it isn't attributed specifically to you, Mr. 20 George, but simply that the natives advised the OPP they 21 would be blocking the Military beach and policing it 22 themselves and that police will not be allowed on the 23 beach. 24 Do you recall anything like that? 25 A: Not at that time, no.
1531 Q: It goes on to say: 2 "In addition the natives stated that 3 they would be non-confrontational in 4 policing the beach." 5 Now was there some arrangement where the - 6 - the beach would be policed, and I'm assuming it's the 7 Military beach, would be policed by people from Stoney 8 Point? 9 A: I know that went on, but I don't 10 think that time frame what you're talking about on there, 11 is correct, because it's like I told you, the only time I 12 met this Captain Smith was when those people moved into 13 the barracks. 14 That's the only time I've ever met him and 15 that was -- that was the time that they -- they -- they 16 were doing the thing with the Military were teaching guys 17 like Dudley and all of them how to -- how to operate the 18 sewage plant, the water treatment plant and how to -- how 19 to turn the gas on and off within the kitchen and the 20 different areas. 21 I know that there has been, you know, like 22 meetings but I -- I don't -- I can't -- I never met the 23 man until that date. 24 So those dates that you're talking about 25 is, I don't know.
1541 Q: Well let me see if I can help you 2 here. I'm going to refer then to Document Number 3 2002889, and it's an incident log. It bears the date 4 July 1st of 1995, at 13:50. And at page 16 of that it 5 reports that "Sergeant Bowman..." 6 Do you know a Sergeant Bowman? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: "...attended the beach at the Army Camp 9 to remove people from the beach due to 10 ATV patrols." 11 And I take it ATV patrols is an all- 12 terrain vehicle? 13 A: I guess. I don't -- I don't remember 14 meeting with Charlie Bowman in there. 15 Q: Let me just go on then. It says: 16 "Numerous vehicles arrived containing 17 Glenn George, Bert Manning, Warren 18 George, Judas George, Dan George, Rose 19 Manning, Rick Henrick (phonetic), 20 Sherry Cloud, Laverne George, and 21 numerous others including children, who 22 arrived on the scene." 23 A: No. I wasn't there. 24 Q: It goes on to report, Mr. George, 25 that:
1551 "Glenn George was advised we have a 2 warrant on file for his arrest. Glenn 3 George and the Natives, who now 4 numbered twenty (20) to twenty-five 5 (25) --" 6 I'm assuming that this is still talking 7 about the same incident, although those numbers are 8 somewhat different. 9 A: See you've got me confused about that 10 date. I never met Captain Smith until the 29th of July, 11 which is so clear in my mind, when those people moved 12 into the camps, that's the only time I met him. And to 13 meet him prior to that, I have no knowledge of this 14 meeting or -- I just don't -- I -- I know when I met this 15 man, and that was -- he was -- he was a part of the 16 rangers that were sent in -- in as charge -- in charge of 17 the part of the Military that was to look after the -- 18 the functions at Camp Ipperwash. 19 And that's the only way I met him. And 20 that was after the 29th of July, when those people moved 21 into the Camp. Anything before that, I -- I know nothing 22 of this -- this Military Smith that you're talking about. 23 Q: And, again, I'm referring to an 24 incident that apparently occurred at the beach area, 25 where you were there with a number of other individuals;
1561 that doesn't -- you don't recall that? 2 A: No. The only thing I recall is the 3 number of individuals and the day that they moved into 4 the Park. That's the only -- it's the only time I 5 remember. 6 Q: Okay. And that the OPP was -- that 7 the OPP was using the beach in order to get from 8 Ipperwash to Port Franks; you don't recall getting that 9 advice? 10 A: I remember, I got home from work one 11 -- one day, I can't remember the date but it was -- the 12 thing that you're talking about was -- was -- I -- I 13 remember that Carl George had, I guess, given the police 14 the permission to patrol the beach on -- on R -- ATV's. 15 And I got home and my mother says to me 16 that, You better go check this out because Rose Manning 17 just got off the phone with me and she said that Carl 18 give them permission to patrol the beach. 19 And I -- I don't think this is the same 20 day what you're talking about. Like, that's the only 21 time that I remember hearing about that. And that's -- I 22 -- I've read the time in here, but it -- that's not -- 23 there's things that are confusing me with that part of 24 the Military Captain Smith guy, being around at the 1st 25 of July.
1571 Like, I don't remember him being around 2 there. I -- I met him on the 29th of July, when those 3 people moved into the barracks. And I can't -- I can't 4 picture what you're bringing out there. 5 Q: Yeah. I -- I'm sorry, I don't mean 6 to suggest that Captain Smith was at the beach on that 7 particular day, although I understand that you had made a 8 request that he be in attendance at the Forest OPP 9 detachment when you agreed to turn yourself in on July 10 2nd. 11 A: See, that's -- that's the thing that 12 I'm -- I'm getting to. I only met Captain Smith on the 13 29th of July, it was that same day that they moved into 14 the par -- into the barracks. And I can't -- I can't say 15 that I made this request because I -- I never made no 16 request for Captain Smith to be with me. Like, I don't - 17 - I don't recall that, like. And there's dates -- 18 Q: So your -- your evidence -- I'm 19 sorry, Mr. George. 20 A: There's dates that are -- like, I -- 21 I know for a fact I've -- I've only met him after the 22 29th of July. So, if someone says that I made a 23 statement wishing him to be in attendance, I -- I never 24 knew the man on July -- on July 2nd, like what you're 25 saying.
1581 I -- I never knew him, didn't know of his 2 existence. I only knew of him on the 29th, so I don't 3 know how or who made these statements of me making a 4 request for him. I've -- I've never ever had that. 5 I remember, you know, like a half a dozen 6 different times being where they wanted me under arrest, 7 like they issued warrants for me quite a bit. They 8 issued warrants for me in times I wasn't even around, you 9 know, like when they went into the Park they -- they had 10 me written up and I was on the -- on the Military side of 11 the road. 12 And I guess simply because I watched I 13 guess I'm guilty, I guess, of whatever that was. I -- I 14 had no part in that. Watching I guess is, on the part 15 like, I don't know. I don't know how to word it. I 16 watched what went on, that's it. I didn't -- I didn't 17 partake in moving into the Park. 18 Q: Let me just ask you about something 19 that you just commented on that you had mentioned that 20 Carl George -- that's one (1) and the same as Carl 21 Tolsma -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- had made some arrangements, is 24 that your understanding -- 25 A: That's --
1591 Q: -- with the OPP that they would 2 patrol the beach? 3 A: That's what I found out, yeah. 4 Q: And do you know why that arrangement 5 was made? 6 A: No, but I know that if there was 7 agreements like that that were going to be passed then it 8 was going to, you know, it was going to be heard by the 9 people in the Camp and I don't remember ever hearing 10 that. Neither does my mother and that's the thing that 11 my mother told me that, You better go and check it out, 12 and that's what I did. I went and checked it out. 13 Q: And the reason to go and check it 14 out, you didn't -- you didn't or she didn't or somebody 15 didn't agree with this arrangement? 16 A: The land is under dispute. If you're 17 going to be occupying disputed land, you're going to -- 18 you're going to patrol them yourself. You don't rely on 19 someone else to -- to do that and that -- that was the 20 understanding of, you know, the people in the Camp. 21 It wasn't -- it wasn't up for one (1) 22 person to decide these types of things and that's, you 23 know, the -- the prime example of somebody claiming to be 24 elected into a position to speak for people. And see, he 25 was never given that -- that permission by me to speak
1601 for me and I don't ever remember him asking me or me 2 telling him that he has this permission. 3 And see that's -- that's the way that the 4 -- the elected system takes it upon themselves as, you 5 know, somebody -- somebody might be coaching him, well 6 that somebody wasn't me because I -- I just told you 7 that, you know, if -- if it went in front of the people, 8 then they said, Yeah, well then it would be done, but 9 that was never done. 10 Q: And I understand that you then took 11 measures to put an end to that arrangement? 12 A: I wouldn't so much say put an end to 13 it, I -- I wanted everyone who was involved in making 14 these decisions to, you know, promptly show up and show 15 your face. Never mind making decisions with -- without 16 involving us, eh? 17 And that's -- that's kind of like what my 18 role was there was I -- I didn't go make decisions that 19 affected everybody unless I asked them. Same thing, that 20 -- that was all I asked for in respect back was if you're 21 going to make decision that affects this community then 22 you should, you know, involve the community. 23 Ask them if that's what they want and to 24 this day, I don't think anybody ever granted him that 25 right to go and do what he done. So I -- I don't -- I
1611 don't know how to, you know, try to make things sound 2 other than what I told you. 3 Q: All right. But you'll agree with me 4 that you did go to the Grand Bend Detachment? You did 5 speak to Officer Bowman? 6 A: Oh, I went -- I went right Carl's 7 place and I told him, Get on the phone and you tell them 8 whatever you told them that that's not the wishes of the 9 people. And I told him, I said, that I'm -- I'm going to 10 go to Grand Bend and by the time I get to Grand Bend, 11 hopefully you will have explained to them the position 12 that we're in. 13 And when I got to Grand Bend, Charlie 14 Bowman was there and he was aware that Carl had told him 15 that he wasn't -- wasn't given permission by the people 16 in the Camp to do what he done and that was it. 17 Q: All right. Mr. George, I'm going to 18 refer you again to the incident of June the 28th, and 19 this time it is as a consequence of an e-mail from a Mr. 20 Les Kobayashi which is produced in Inquiry Document 21 1009259 and it is under Tab 1 of the materials, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 But it refers to you, first of all, as the 24 acclaimed chief, Mr. George. Do you have any comment on 25 that, firstly?
1621 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: I don't know who -- who was 5 acclaiming this, it's not me. To me, I -- I explain 6 that part within our culture that, you know, that you're 7 -- when you're asked to -- to do those types of things as 8 a -- as a head man well you're, you know, you're 9 basically agreeing to do all of those things that involve 10 serving your people within your community. 11 And I never went to the Camp to look for, 12 you know, a title as a chief or councillor or a head man 13 or anything like that. It was -- it was one (1) of those 14 things that as -- as the community evolved that -- the 15 things that we had done was we -- we went into ceremony 16 as to -- like I explained, my uncle was risen up as the 17 head man and I was the sub-ordinate that would do his 18 legwork, his eyes, his ears. 19 You know, to -- to see this thing through 20 and that's the role. It's -- I don't -- I don't -- I 21 don't really know what that role of a chief is. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Other than what I share with you now. 24 Q: All right. And in just in referring 25 to that document, Mr. George, it was evidently reported
1631 to Mr. Kobayashi that you were accompanied by warriors, 2 that you took a tractor to remove the erected barriers 3 and stakes, and I'm assuming this is in reference to the 4 incident that we had talked about before the break? 5 Do you know where that comes from at all? 6 And again, I'm not asking you to speak for Mr. Kobayashi 7 but the reference to warriors is there. 8 A: Again, to me it's -- it's -- it's 9 like one of those things like if I -- if I was to have 10 gotten my uncle Cabbage to come in here and let you -- 11 let you hear from him, his interpretation, he would walk 12 around to each and every one of these people in here and 13 -- and he would give his personal, you know, thing, as to 14 that's -- that's the way they do things in -- as an older 15 person. 16 They -- they got to try and meet you first 17 to explain to you and they want to look into your eyes as 18 -- as if they're going to, you know, speak to you over 19 something that is held sacredly and -- and to me, like, a 20 lot of people have wroten a lot of things about me that I 21 -- I -- I don't know if I would want to believe 22 everything that is written. 23 Because I -- it's -- it doesn't really 24 shed any light on what it is that I was really doing, you 25 know. It's -- it's like somebody speculating that I'm a
1641 leader of a group of men that can't think for themselves 2 or -- or something like that. 3 To me, I don't have no part of that. I 4 deal strictly with men as men and deal with those things 5 as -- as this is a part of our inheritance that somebody 6 wants to smear me. Well, I -- I've been smeared, too, 7 but I -- that's -- I don't know how to answer that part 8 of that question. 9 Q: Well, let's --let's just look at that 10 second full paragraph. It says: 11 "He advised me of the following events 12 that recently occurred." 13 And I'm assuming this -- Mr. Kobayashi is 14 referring to his meeting with Staff Sergeant Bowman. And 15 it reads: 16 "June 26th, Military and Glenn George 17 acclaimed chief with warriors had a 18 confrontation." 19 I -- that's all I'm asking about, Mr. 20 George. One (1), whether you were the acclaimed chief 21 and two (2), whether you were with warriors, whatever 22 that means, in the context of this incident that we've 23 already talked about? 24 A: In here, I know these dates here and 25 these dates here I've -- I was only with my cousins and
1651 my nephews. 2 That's the only people around. If that's 3 the way things are viewed from outside, like, to me I -- 4 I kind of understood that upon my meeting this -- this 5 Charlie Bowman was -- I had a little brief ex -- 6 explanation from Rose Manning saying that he used to live 7 down the road from her. And you got me on where it was 8 that she lives. I -- I understood that it was in 9 Watford. And that's all I know of Mr. Bowman. 10 And I kind of had this -- this feeling 11 that they had already known each other because she told 12 me, He used to be my neighbour, he used to live down the 13 road. That's all I knew of him, other than the fact that 14 I had to go and meet with him over this -- this -- it's 15 like a -- a thing that -- I don't know at the time if it 16 was Carl George's decision or if it was Nobby's decision. 17 Q: When you say "Nobby" you're referring 18 to -- 19 A: Ro -- Robert George. 20 Q: -- Robert George? 21 A: I don't know if it was his decision 22 or -- or Carl's decision to do that. Regardless, it 23 wasn't known to the people in the Camp that this was 24 being done, this -- this was being approved, this was 25 being okay.
1661 I had no knowledge of it. All's I found 2 out was, when I got home from work that day and my mother 3 told me that -- that Rose -- she got off the phone with 4 Rose and Rose said that Carl let the cops patrol the 5 beach, and that's all I heard. 6 And that's what I had to deal with, is, I 7 went right to Carl's place and I asked Carl, Who told you 8 to do that? And his response was, They were going to do 9 it anyway. Then I said, B-S I'm going to patrol the 10 beach myself. That's what I told him. 11 And I told him that, You better get on the 12 phone and call them up, tell them I'm coming up there to 13 straighten this out. They're not going to be patrolling 14 the beach, not while the land's under dispute, and that's 15 as far as it went. 16 Q: Okay. And you were not part of a 17 group that would have met with Sergeant Bowman on the -- 18 on the beach? 19 A: No. I met with him in his office in 20 Grand Bend. I didn't go meeting on the beach. 21 Q: So, you -- 22 A: It was in his office. 23 Q: You have no recollection of any 24 meeting on the beach where there was -- 25 A: No. I met with him in his office.
1671 Q: -- the stoppage of the ATV patrols? 2 A: No. I met with him in his office. I 3 didn't meet with him anywhere else, just in his office. 4 Q: All right. And there was no 5 agreement by you to turn yourself in the next day -- 6 A: See, this is -- 7 Q: -- on these warrants for your arrest? 8 A: -- this is where -- see, I'm telling 9 you about this time, like, I -- I went right to his 10 office and I left his office. I -- I don't know where 11 this arrest warrant stems from. 12 It's like I told you, the only time I met 13 Captain Smith was on the 29th, the same day that they 14 moved into the barracks. I never knew of him before. 15 How can I call upon him on the 2nd of July when I never 16 met him until the 29th? Do you understand what I'm 17 saying? 18 Like, I -- I'm kind of lost because I know 19 that I've had several warrants for my arrest. Like, it 20 wasn't -- these things popped up left, right, centre, all 21 the time. I -- I go to the outhouse, I probably got, you 22 know a -- summons to appear or something like that 23 because there -- there was things that happened that I 24 had no knowledge of or I wasn't even there. Better 25 arrest Glenn, he's -- he's around here somewhere. That's
1681 -- that's the way I viewed it. 2 Q: I would direct attention then to the 3 Inquiry Document 7000253, which is part of the federal 4 productions, it bears the date of July 5th, 1995, and it 5 indicates there, Mr. George, that you had turned yourself 6 in at the OPP Forest detachment in respect to the 7 incident with the Military Police, and -- that we've 8 already talked about, which occurred in April of '95, 9 that you were taken to Provincial Court in Sarnia and 10 released on bail with conditions. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: What day was that? 13 Q: That would have been -- it's reported 14 as July the 5th of 1995. 15 A: I don't -- I don't really -- I don't 16 really recall that. Like, the time -- the time -- kind 17 of confusing here. Like, what -- what were the charges 18 that I'm being arrested for? 19 Q: I -- I would think it would have been 20 either on the fail to appear or the incident regarding 21 your altercation after pulling the barriers down, with 22 the Military Police. 23 A: I think there's something -- there's 24 something there a little bit more confusing to that. 25 Q: All right. Well, let me ask you
1691 this, do you recall turning yourself in at the Forest 2 Detachment of the OPP in relation to a warrant? 3 A: I turned myself in half a dozen 4 times. I'm trying to find out this -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- straighten this time frame out 7 here. Like -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- I had, like I explained to you, 10 the thing with the captain of the Military. I -- I never 11 met him until the 29th, okay. I don't know where in this 12 other stuff that you're -- that you're talking about me 13 asking him -- it's under that same date frame, right? 14 Q: I -- I believe so and again I have 15 documents to go by and that's -- you, know, that's the 16 best I can do and I -- I apologize if it's confusing. 17 A: Because I don't -- I don't really -- 18 I don't really remember who was all there when I turned 19 myself in. I know that I turned myself in. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Like, I'm just trying to think. 22 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest to you 23 that it occurred in the -- in the summer, in July of 1995 24 and that you did -- pardon me, you were released from 25 Provincial Court in Sarnia on conditions.
1701 A: I remember -- yeah, I was given -- I 2 was given, oh, gees, this is the -- the four (4) charges? 3 The -- the uttering death threats, the two (2) assaults 4 and the mischief? 5 Q: I'm assuming it is, sir, yes. 6 A: Because I -- I would like to know 7 because I don't know offhand. Like, I don't want to be 8 saying, yes, this was, because I -- I was given charges 9 left, right and centre. I need to -- I need to know real 10 clearly what -- what it is that you're asking because -- 11 Q: Well, again, I'm -- I'm simply trying 12 to find out from you, sir, what you can recall about the 13 dispute that you've told us -- the disputed land and the 14 patrols that had been undertaken of the Military beach by 15 the Ontario Provincial Police, which you had taken, as I 16 understand, some exception to. 17 A: Well, it's -- it's similar to, like, 18 hearing of a -- of a toll booth on -- on Matheson Drive. 19 Like it was -- it was a thing that, at that time, they 20 were -- they were doing it to raise money and I don't 21 know how you would allow someone to patrol the beach. 22 And then if you were going to have a toll where you're 23 going to allow people onto the beach, like, to me, I -- I 24 -- I didn't know all of the things that were going on, to 25 tell you the truth.
1711 I -- I'm still trying to figure that out 2 myself. And it -- it's nothing -- like, in the past, 3 like we've -- we've had different people, you know, like 4 they used to have garbage cans on the beach. And I 5 remember old Sockie (phonetic) and them guys used to go 6 pick up the garbage and they'd go dump it. 7 They -- they had talked about doing that 8 on the Military beach. As -- as a kid I remember hearing 9 them talk about doing that to allow people on the beach 10 and that they would pick up the garbage and they would -- 11 they would do those things, you know? 12 And I don't ever recall, like at that time 13 being, like, the part of under arrest because I was 14 sitting right in Charlie Bowman's office. If they wanted 15 to arrest me then, they could have arrested me then. 16 See, this is what I'm trying to get at you 17 is making me confused. Because I don't remember what 18 charges at -- at that time because I don't remember being 19 under any charges when I went into the -- into the -- 20 Charlie Bowman's office. See what I mean? 21 Q: I think I follow you, Mr. George. 22 A: It's like if I'm going to turn myself 23 in, here I am. You know what I mean? I wasn't going to 24 go walking in there and say, Oh, by the way, I -- I got a 25 warrant. I didn't know of any warrant at that time when
1721 I'm sitting in his office. Maybe they had a warrant 2 waiting for me, I don't know. 3 I don't know what kind of warrants they 4 wrote up. I know they wrote a lot of them. I don't know 5 offhand every one (1). But I know that I walked into 6 Charlie Bowman's office to explain to him that the land 7 was under dispute and that if we were going to patrol it, 8 we were going to patrol it ourselves free from any 9 police, free from anybody that has an interest in that 10 land other than ourselves. That's what it was about. 11 Q: And just in and around that period 12 when all of this was occurring, Mr. George, we understand 13 that from the reports, one (1) of which being at Inquiry 14 Document 1002089, it's an article from the Sarnia 15 Observer, dated July 7th of 1995. And the headline 16 reads: "Natives at Camps say Military started the 17 Trouble", and the article goes on, essentially, to talk 18 about Carl George had been disavowed as chief. 19 And it goes on to report that you had been 20 charged with mischief and threats and those sorts of 21 things. 22 A: Well -- 23 Q: Would you agree with me that all of 24 that sort of occurred around the same period? 25 A: Yeah, it was tons of that kind of
1731 stuff. Like, there was a lot of people that regardless 2 if there was an election of not, they -- they would have 3 never viewed Carl as a chief, because that's just the way 4 things are. 5 Like, I can't change that and to me I -- I 6 didn't go there to the Camp looking for a chief, either. 7 That's -- I got enough of them around now. And it's one 8 of those things that if you look at that document and you 9 see who it's written by, that there is my nephew Waldo's 10 uncle, Paul Morden (phonetic). 11 That's to me, anybody can write stories 12 like that and if you want to quote something you should - 13 - you should quote my stories instead of his, like, I was 14 there, you know. 15 Q: And that's what we want to do, Mr. 16 George, is to give you an opportunity to speak on the 17 record now. 18 A: To me I -- I know of the stuff that 19 you're talking about. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: You know, and -- and I didn't go 22 there to claim to be chief. I didn't go there to -- to 23 take something away from Carl. If Carl wants to be 24 chief, let Carl be the chief. I didn't go there, I 25 didn't say Martin -- Maynard, you're now the chief,
1741 you're not the chief. 2 Nobby was claiming to be the chief, you 3 know, there's Carl and Maynard and Nobby. I didn't want 4 nothing to do with this role. I was busy doing the stuff 5 that all of these guys claimed to think that they were 6 going to have this -- this role of giving orders and 7 everybody else was going to say jump and they're going to 8 say, how high? 9 And that didn't work either. Of all of 10 those people that claimed to be chief, I'm the only one 11 that's still living there. So I don't know, maybe I am 12 the chief. You see what I mean, they're not there, I'm 13 there, maybe I am. Maybe this guy Paul Morden knows more 14 than I know. 15 Q: You moved into the barracks, Mr. 16 George, in August of '95? 17 A: I think it was around then because it 18 was on July 29th that they moved in there. I remember 19 that like yesterday. 20 Q: Okay. And because of the convictions 21 that you had against you, and you've told us you hadn't 22 any criminal convictions prior to your coming there, was 23 it not the case that you were, as part of the conditions, 24 to stay away from that area? 25 A: Yeah. It was to stay away from the
1751 built up area, and that's exactly what I did. I wasn't 2 there when they moved in there. I know that they went 3 and moved in there. They come and told me, We're going 4 to do this. Fine, go ahead, do what you got to do. 5 I seen Rose Manning, Nellie Rogers, I can 6 list them all. I know they all -- they come to tell me. 7 Why you come to tell me? But they went and did it. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I know that, can't change that, 10 they're in there now, you know, like. Seeing those names 11 that I told you, they don't even live in the Camp any 12 more. 13 Q: And do you recall an incident, Mr. 14 George where you had a meeting, and I'm going to suggest 15 to you that it was at the beginning of August 1995, with 16 Sergeants Bowman, Wright and Speck that you were in 17 attendance along with Rose Manning and Terry George at 18 the main gate that was in relation to a motor vehicle 19 accident fatality that had occurred the night before? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And as I understand it, you had 22 wanted, if I can -- if I can use that phrase, the OPP to 23 implement the ride program? 24 A: Oh yeah, that was probably -- 25 Q: Can you tell us about that?
1761 A: Oh, again, it's too late, there is 2 already somebody dead. Like this -- this stuff when I 3 was talking to them was going around back '93 when we 4 first moved in there. The time when we were trying to 5 create a dialogue with them. We were making these types 6 of statements because the Elders, at the time, were 7 dealing with people that were drinking and driving around 8 in the Camp. 9 And to race around trying to chase them is 10 one thing, and to dealing with them is another. 11 And that was a part of the things that 12 were tabled back then when we wanted to create a 13 dialogue. And then it -- it always seems that after 14 somebody's dead, after something happens, that's when 15 they, oh, they want to set up the riot program. 16 Well, too much too late, you know. That's 17 -- that's the thing that always been happening. And -- 18 and, again, it's like those people, they -- they were 19 asked to come there by -- by Bert Manning. That was Bert 20 Manning's friend, as -- as you met him in training 21 school. And he had a little girl with him and that's -- 22 Q: You're talking about the person 23 that -- 24 A: Those people that are dead. They had 25 a little girl, they -- I was living on the beach in a
1771 trailer, and they come over and they asked if that little 2 girl could stay here. Sure, I didn't -- no problem. 3 And it just seemed so -- like -- like I 4 just got to sleep and I heard this knock on the door 5 like. What do you want? Ernie, It's Ernie. What do you 6 want, Ernie? You better come out we're got -- I've got 7 something to tell you. 8 And I let him tell me what is it and he 9 told me, There's -- there's a couple of people down 10 there, they're not moving. What do you mean, they're not 11 moving, they're dead? He nods his head, yeah. Then I 12 asked him what -- what went on. He says they -- they 13 drove off the end of the road. What kind of car? He 14 said he didn't know, it was all smashed up. 15 And that's that -- that thing that -- 16 like, that's what happens to me. You know, you get -- 17 you get these different instances where, you know, 18 somebody -- somebody's dead. You know, they -- that's 19 when they knock on my door and that's what I had to go 20 and deal with, the fact that that little girl that was 21 sleeping in the trailer with my girlfriend just become an 22 orphan. 23 And it was one of those things that, Yeah 24 I've got to go deal with this, and, the heck of a thing 25 to see. When you see somebody that -- that is
1781 motionless, dead, it's kind of reminds you about, you 2 know, the -- the sober way of life that you choose to 3 live, well, that's what I choose and I -- I've got to 4 deal with this stuff that -- I knew Bert Manning was the 5 one that had invited this guy down there and did not give 6 him a place to sleep or a place to rest or anything. 7 And, you know, they -- they took it upon 8 themselves to come and ask me if their little daughter 9 could come and sleep in the trailer where I was in. I -- 10 sure you can -- she can stay there. 11 Whatever it is that they did, that was my 12 understanding that Bert Manning was going to be the man 13 looking after them because he had invited them, and it's 14 out of my hands, other than the fact that I had to get a 15 hold of next of kin for this little girl, that I had to 16 go and burn tobacco for them people that laid motionless 17 on the side of the road. 18 That -- I don't know how -- how to explain 19 it. Like, you're given -- you're given that -- that 20 title, that role, but when something like this happens 21 you don't sit there and say, I'm the man. You just go 22 and look after it. You don't -- you don't get into 23 debates or anything like that. 24 And I remember telling Bert Manning that, 25 you know, You -- you don't invite people down here and
1791 then let them run free as to -- you know, you invite them 2 down here, you -- you give them a bed to sleep on, now 3 look it; and that's basically what happened. 4 Q: And the incident chart that I 5 referred you to, where this is reported, it also reports 6 you, Glenn, as saying you didn't want liquor on the Base, 7 that you didn't approve of liquor being on the Base, you 8 didn't want people getting drunk on the Base and driving 9 around, and that you wanted the road -- the riot program 10 rather? 11 A: Yeah. Every since I've been there 12 I've been sober, ever since May 6th of '93. If I had to 13 give it up, well then it doesn't mean I'm going to make 14 it a little haven for whoever wants to come in here and 15 get drunk and ride around. 16 Like, to me, I see it crippling the 17 Reserve right now, as we speak. And to me it's -- it's 18 one of those things, like, I can get into a whole big 19 story about the alcohol and the other little famous gifts 20 that we were given by the younger brother, dealing with 21 the old poison blankets, and you name it. 22 I know about it. Like, I -- I was -- I 23 was thought that this -- this is what's going to happen. 24 And that's this final gift was going to be the little 25 dollar sign that our Indian people aren't going to
1801 believe. They're going to be able to live if they ain't 2 got that dollar in their pocket and they never had it in 3 the beginning. But here it is, it's evolved to where we 4 are now. 5 And all these decisions that I see being 6 made by the elected system is all over money. And it's a 7 shame that this is the way it's evolved. People in the 8 Camp, they don't get it -- they don't get that money, but 9 you see the -- the part of the money isn't the evil 10 thing. People make it evil. 11 And here we are, I'm -- I'm supposed to 12 speak on -- on the fact that there was -- there was a 13 young girl that got run over on the road that, you know, 14 we -- we try our best to look after these things, but, 15 you know, when you -- when you -- when you get of age, 16 you get tired of babysitting adults. 17 When you got little kids, you want to look 18 after your little kids, versus babysitting adults that 19 seem to think that, oh, I need to go knock on Glenn's 20 door and Glenn will look after it. That's what happens. 21 Q: I can tell you, Mr. George, that in - 22 - at Inquiry Document 1008183, that it notes that you had 23 attended a meeting with the OPP at Kettle Point and that 24 the road -- Riot Program was set up outside of the Camp. 25 And they report you as saying that you wanted to tell the
1811 people this was not a -- a hole in the wall or a safe 2 haven for people to run to. 3 Is that what you were just telling us 4 about now? 5 A: Yeah. Because we've had -- we've had 6 car chases that come down the road where there's young 7 kids trying to get to Kettle Point that -- in a stolen 8 vehicle, a carload of people, they want you to open the 9 gate and you get tired of it after a while. 10 You get -- you get tired of the fact that 11 they wouldn't come and see you on payday, they wouldn't 12 come and see you on every given -- on any given weekend 13 and maybe share a little meal or something like that, you 14 never seen that. They just want you to open the gate, 15 oh, you recognizing that, you know, they might be 16 relatives down the road, but, you know, that was 17 happening, big time. 18 Q: Further on in that particular report, 19 Mr. George, there is a suggestion that you had been 20 appointed as head man along with six (6) elders and a 21 council of younger people. There was a ceremonial fire 22 conducted by a Fred Pine and it goes on to suggest that 23 Les Jewel -- or pardon me, to indicate, that Les Jewel 24 was urging you to become more militant. 25 Do you have any comments on that? First
1821 of all, do you know a Les Jewel? 2 A: Yeah, I've met him, yeah. 3 Q: And he has a brother, Russ Jewel? 4 A: Yeah, he's got a couple of brothers, 5 one (1) -- one (1) lives in Muncey. 6 Q: Those two (2) in particular, they had 7 spent some time in your company, I'm told? 8 A: I've met them, yeah. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Like, I didn't -- I didn't go and 11 summon them to come here and I don't know how it is. I 12 think they -- they at the time, brought Buck down. 13 Q: You're referring Buck Doxtator? 14 A: Yeah, Buck Doxtator and I don't know 15 where it is that -- that these guys were involved in. I 16 -- I used to hear of things that went on at -- at Oka and 17 things like that that, you know, that -- I'm not saying 18 that our family hasn't been there. Like, I've -- I've 19 got sisters that, you know, that have been here, there 20 and everywhere, that they, in turn, like when something 21 happens in Indian country, they're -- they're not going 22 to run and hide. They're going to gather what they can 23 to help their people. 24 That's the way Indians are. Like, I -- I 25 can't -- I can't say that I'm different because, you
1831 know, I -- I know that for a fact, that on that time, 2 when these things happened in Oka, that they had a -- 3 they had a thing on the -- on the ranges at the -- at the 4 Camp and I remember my dad going there to burn tobacco, 5 you know and -- 6 Q: In 1990? 7 A: In 1990. Just before he died, you 8 know, and these are things that, you know, my -- my dad, 9 you know, might not have been able to do too much, but he 10 knew how to burn tobacco, you know? 11 Q: Okay. And what of the suggestion in 12 the report that Les Jewel was urging you to become more 13 militant? 14 A: I never ever had anybody come to me 15 to tell me what I was doing wasn't right or good or 16 needed to do more. I just basically told him if you're 17 not here to help, you know, be on your way, you know. 18 And that's the thing and -- and what I was meaning as -- 19 as that part of wanting to help as the Potawatomi people 20 are fire keepers and, you know, it's like to understand 21 the part of the sacred fire, sometimes you got to gather 22 the wood to have a fire. And you ain't got the time to 23 gather the wood, you may as well carry on your little 24 journey, you know? 25 Because that's -- that's one (1) of the
1841 things that -- there's a ton of people out there that 2 they -- they have this thing about them that say they 3 want to go into a sweat lodge and they don't want to be 4 the ones to gather the rocks. 5 They don't want to be the ones to gather 6 the medicines or the wood or anything like that. They 7 just want to go in the lodge and have a sweat and leave. 8 That's the thing. 9 It's something if you were go to a 10 thirteen (13) moon process of doing these things as a 11 sacredness, you -- you'll -- you begin to understand that 12 that wood's going to warm you up half a dozen times 13 before you get in the lodge. 14 You're going to get warmed up from it by 15 gathering the wood, cutting the wood, splitting the wood, 16 carrying the wood. You're going to get warmed up -- 17 you're going to sweat long before you get in the lodge. 18 And that's the thing. There's a lot of 19 people that tend to be viewed by somebody outside there 20 looking in, and they say, Oh, somebody shows up here. 21 Oh, they're going to teach him what it is to be what 22 you're doing. 23 And I kindly learnt from my mom and dad, 24 you know. I didn't need nobody from who knows where 25 coming to tell me this is what I should be doing. I'm --
1851 I'm right in the spot where I'm supposed to be doing what 2 I'm doing. 3 Q: Okay. And as you're doing what 4 you're doing, Mr. George, did Les Jewel, Russ Jewel or 5 Buck Doxtator ever 1), urge you to become more militant 6 and, 2), did they offer you weapons, and in particular, 7 firearms? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did anybody offer you such items? 10 A: To me, no one's ever offered me 11 anything, you know? Like it's -- it's similar to -- like 12 just what I told you before about when something happens. 13 They just come knocking on my door and a lot of times you 14 kind of -- you kind of hope that, you know, through time 15 that there's other people that can help out with those 16 types of responsibilities, whether it's looking after the 17 living or looking after the dead. 18 You know, those are things that -- this is 19 your community, and these are your people. You do those 20 things accordingly. You don't -- you don't look out 21 there expecting that somebody's going to teach you how to 22 do these things. I was taught by my parents. 23 I don't know how to -- you know? I know 24 Buck Doxtator because I know my Mom went to school with 25 his mom and dad. And I know Buck Doxtator through the
1861 fact that my -- my uncles went overseas and come back 2 overseas with his dad. 3 And they used to gather together and have 4 fish fries down at my Uncle Cabbage's, you know? To me, 5 Alan Jacobs is -- he's the same, you know. Clyde Jacobs 6 (phonetic) went overseas with my uncles, come back home. 7 You know, today these guys, you know, well 8 known in that part of our spiritual family. And it's the 9 same type of view that they're viewed as being part of a 10 warrior society? Well, if they went over to war, well 11 maybe they are warriors from a warrior society. 12 I don't know. They're -- they've been 13 there and done that, not me. I'm -- I'm just here. 14 Q: Perhaps I should ask you about Ed 15 Isaac while I'm putting these names to you. 16 A: Same thing. They're relatives in 17 Walpole. I got relatives in Sarnia. I got relatives -- 18 Clarence Manderwov (phonetic) was a -- was a different -- 19 from a different family. 20 My great-grandmother, Amanda Richie, 21 (phonetic) was from Saugine. Clarence Manderwov, he was 22 a drill instructor for the Military, the US marines, 23 stationed in Hawaii. He was a great big man. 24 I didn't go look for these guys -- 25 Q: Was he the individual that died in
1871 this -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- motor vehicle accident we're 4 talking about? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: See, that's the thing that the -- the 8 time that I got to meet with him, I remember talking to 9 him about that and he knew what I was talking about. He 10 knew that somewhere down the line we were distant 11 relatives. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: What do you do? 14 Q: Mr. George, in this same incident 15 report at August the 8th, and specifically at page 30 of 16 that, there was some advice given by a Sergeant Speck 17 that you, Glenn George, had a handgun at the base which 18 used to belong to your father, although you didn't carry 19 it around. 20 A: My dad never had a handgun, never 21 owned one. He had guns in the past, but he never had a 22 handgun. 23 Q: And can we take it from that, that 24 you didn't have a handgun? 25 A: I didn't have no handgun.
1881 Q: Okay. 2 A: George Speck is pretty good 3 storyteller. 4 Q: You had indicated to various people, 5 including -- I suppose it's an Officer Linton, and it's 6 reported in a Incident Log at Inquiry Document 2002889, 7 on August the 1st of '95, that you indicated that 8 Matheson Drive and Ipperwash Park are both in dispute. 9 A: I don't remember saying anything 10 about that area. I -- I basically said that the beach 11 was. Maybe that's their assumption. To me, I think they 12 were busy trying to set up something along the lines of a 13 perimeter, I guess. I don't know. I don't know what 14 their plans were. 15 Alls I know is that I -- I've heard myself 16 making all these different statements that -- that I 17 didn't even -- I wasn't there to speak on them. I -- I 18 never witnessed them but I guess I said them. 19 So, in other words, I'm basically saying 20 that I had no part of it. But yet, somebody's writing 21 it. 22 Q: And -- and that's why I ask you, 23 simply because it is written and we want to afford you 24 the opportunity to comment on that. 25 A: It -- it's similar to, you know, that
1891 -- that part of, like, the -- the role of leadership, 2 like, I'm not -- I'm not saying that that's what I'm 3 there for or anything like that. 4 I'm saying that I'm not going to run away 5 from the offer, if somebody was to ask me to do these 6 things in a specific form, I would -- I would probably 7 say I would agree to it. But it -- it wouldn't be for 8 everything and it would have to be a shared thing also. 9 Like, I'm not -- I'm not about to -- to 10 label myself as -- as something. If these people don't 11 want that, well then -- then it ain't going to happen. 12 Q: Okay. And speaking of offers, Mr. 13 George, are you aware whether or not Ovide Mercredie, who 14 was then the National Chief of the Assembly of First 15 Nations, in the early part of August, offered his 16 services to attempt to mediate the dispute with respect 17 to the lands in -- in issue, and that you had refused 18 that offer to mediate? 19 A: I never -- I never refused nothing 20 like that. It just said -- I -- I'm trying to make it 21 become real, but it never happened. And I can't -- I 22 can't really make any, you know, any story on how it is 23 that Ovide got involved, or where Ovide was planning to 24 go, or what Ovide's intentions were. 25 Like, to me, I was trying to do that since
1901 May 6th of '93. You know, like, I've -- I've been busy 2 actually living that part. And, to me, for somebody to 3 want to show up, you know, with the cameras and you name 4 it, well, Come on, give me a hand, yeah, I'll accept your 5 help. But I never seen it. 6 It -- it's like I remember at one (1) time 7 asking, you know, I -- I went around, I travelled, I went 8 to Wisconsin, I -- I tried to get the Grand Medicine 9 Lodge of the Medeouins (phonetic) to come here, and they 10 didn't want to come here. They shown up and all they did 11 was mock the Elders. And that's why they're not there. 12 And, to me, I -- I made several kinds of 13 attempts even within the -- the Indian country there to, 14 you know, to look for that type of support. But there 15 was -- it didn't happen. I don't know why. But, hey, 16 it's something that when you're -- when you're in a 17 position like that, you don't turn nobody away. If they 18 want to help, Come on down, help. 19 And it's -- it's similar to, like, what I 20 was telling you about somebody wants to introduce the 21 riot program but there's already somebody dead, what's 22 the sense. They're already dead, forget it, never mind, 23 I'll do it myself. 24 It's the same thing when -- when Ovide 25 Mercredie wants to show up after the fact that somebody's
1911 dead, hum. 2 Q: No. I'm suggesting that he is 3 reported to have -- to have made this offer in August of 4 '95? 5 A: I've never heard it out of his own 6 pair of lips, to hear him make that offer. I can't only 7 just tell you what I just told you, that, you know, I've 8 heard it third or fourth hand that this offer was made. 9 But if he was just in what he was saying, he would have 10 just showed up. Just like everybody else. They just 11 showed up. 12 And it's -- it's -- to me, you know, 13 there's a whole number of people out there that were 14 claiming to be chiefs. Why didn't they bring them in 15 here, and they never either. So, I don't know how to 16 speak on that one. 17 Q: Then perhaps a simple yes or no might 18 do. Was there an offer? 19 A: I don't know. I don't know. 20 Q: Was there an offer by Ovide Mercredie 21 to mediate the -- 22 A: Ovide Mercredie never talked to me. 23 No, I don't know. 24 Q: Thank you. The Toronto Star 25 reported, at Document 1002089, there were supporters from
1921 other reserves at the Base, said the newspaper, and there 2 was pressure from Kettle Point to have some of these 3 outsiders leave, quote, "outsiders", and then you were 4 quoted, Mr. George, as saying: 5 "After coming here and weathering the 6 storm, we're not about to leave." 7 Do you recognize that as something that 8 you might have said in relation to -- 9 A: I think I -- I might still be saying 10 that. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: You know? Like, it's -- it's one (1) 13 of those things I know that in -- in '93 was one (1) of 14 the coldest winters in the last probably fifty (50) -- 15 sixty (60) years and to me that was the thing, that -- 16 that first winter. 17 I think it -- it made it a lot clearer to 18 the young men that, hey, this is fun, you know. I think 19 we'll stay. That's my understanding of the way things 20 were. 21 Q: Okay. I'll -- I'll carry on, Mr. 22 George. There's an Incident Log that's reported at 23 Inquiry Document 2002890, again moving ahead in time on 24 August the 14th of '95. This is -- again is Sergeant 25 Speck and he's reporting that after speaking to you:
1931 "It appears that Ipperwash Provincial 2 Park and Pinery Provincial Park are 3 still high on their agenda of places 4 that they feel they have a right to. 5 Glenn also spoke of land between the 6 Army Camp Road and Kettle Point as land 7 that belongs to them. He also advised 8 that it is brought up every day at the 9 Camp and that they should close off 10 Highway 21." 11 A: They still talk about closing off 12 Highway 21 and it's simply because of the lack of, you 13 know -- you -- you bring it out in a fashion that I'm not 14 going to deny you. Like, that's what they say. You 15 know, it's -- it's like, it's almost been ten (10) years 16 now that -- that Dudley's been shot, you know. And it -- 17 and it's like how do you -- how do you get this -- this - 18 - whoever this is, the Indian Affairs Minister, 19 Department of National Defence Minister. 20 How do you ever get their attention? Is 21 that what you do? I don't know. I know they still talk 22 about it and -- and it's basically trying to get these 23 politicians' attention. 24 I don't think it's a -- it's a thing to 25 create a standoff. I know the people in the Camp had
1941 their fill of standoffs, but it's still that -- that 2 thing that's tossed up in the air still as to whoever can 3 grab it can have it. 4 Well, I'm going to jump and try and grab 5 it, too. You know, I'm -- I'm the guy that's been living 6 on this land since May 6 and I'm not about to let someone 7 throw it up in the air for whoever can have it, you know? 8 I'll -- I'll hold that a little bit closer 9 to my heart than that because that's what's basically 10 been going on, that, you know, there's a lack of, you 11 know, the -- the things within the -- the politicians in 12 the area and the Minister of Indian Affairs, the Minister 13 of the Department of National Defence. 14 The list just goes on and on. You can 15 write them letters, you know, which we did. We got 16 responses, too, and they keep saying the same old thing, 17 Oh, the land will be returned after it's cleaned up and 18 all this other stuff. 19 Well, that's nice, too. I like hearing 20 positive stuff, but that positive stuff doesn't change 21 the fact. The fact is, these people moved home. And 22 then through the things that evolved, the people were 23 told that they were unfit parents because they're living 24 in a chemical dump type of thing. And it's -- I don't 25 know where these people come from because it ain't no
1951 different than Sarnia. 2 You -- you want to go for a ride down 3 Sarnia, you want to see a chemical dump? There you go. 4 You know, they got so many messes to clean up I think our 5 little corner of the world should, you know. They're 6 good at making messes, they should be pretty good at 7 cleaning them up, but I -- I -- I'm not about to get into 8 an argument about, I want to be the guy to clean up their 9 mess. 10 It's their mess, let them clean it up. I'm 11 not about to get into that, but I see people want to 12 follow that little weenie dollar sign around like I'm the 13 authority to clean up this mess and that's what I've 14 seen. 15 I -- I've seen that all through my time 16 being there and, you know, I've -- I've grown up hearing 17 that kind of stuff. And it -- it's old news, you know. 18 Q: And Mr. George, with respect to those 19 comments that were attributed to you that these places 20 were high on your agenda, or their agenda I think is to 21 be more accurate, that is Ipperwash Provincial Park, 22 Pinery Provincial Park, and the land in -- 23 A: I -- 24 Q: -- between Army Camp Road and Kettle 25 Point; you're not saying that you disavow those comments?
1961 A: I would have made those types of 2 comments, yeah. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Like I've made them, like, it's -- 5 it's not no big secret that you know, that the people who 6 want to go to the -- to the lands office by the 7 courthouse in Sarnia and they'll -- they'll hand you 8 over, you know, an abstract of all those lands that are 9 still listed under Stoney Point. That's no big secret. 10 And you got all these cottage people that 11 are living on your land. What -- what are you going to 12 do? How do you -- how do you raise their awareness as to 13 -- yeah, they're scream taxpayer. I'm a taxpayer. I 14 paid almost ten thousand dollars ($10,000) in taxes this 15 year and I don't get no services as a taxpayer. 16 And that's the only time you're going to 17 hear me crying about it is right in here. 18 Q: Okay. And your intention in making 19 these comments, if I follow your response, was to bring 20 some political attention to this? 21 A: Everything's been political, ever 22 since I was a kid. Like, I -- I watched my mother gather 23 up all these letters and as part of being on the council 24 in Kettle Point that they wrote to all the politicians 25 asking for their support for the return of the land.
1971 I seen all of that. I seen my older 2 sisters do up letters, drafting them to everybody that 3 was living in the Camp. Sent them to everyone of the 4 politicians at a provincial, local, municipal, federal 5 level, all of them. We listed them all, we all sent them 6 letters, even Dudley did. 7 I don't know how you -- you go about this. 8 Like, I had Tony help form -- formulate a working 9 agreement back in '93. We were trying to put tegether a 10 working agreement with the council in Kettle Point, 11 simply so that we would kind of like by-pass any kind of 12 confrontations or deaths over this land. 13 And I -- I done these things, you know, 14 I've -- I've handed out pamphlets with my Mom and my dad, 15 you know. I went on this walk to Ottawa to try and raise 16 awareness, I can go on and on. 17 I tried to raise these -- these questions 18 with the politicians in the area to try and raise or shed 19 some light on this -- this dark little corner of the 20 world here that nobody wants to talk about. 21 And it's here today that -- that they want 22 to try and fog you up a murder with a land claim, or is 23 it a murder with a -- you know, a little touch of a land 24 claim; I don't know. 25 I know that when you do these things in
1981 that forum and you want to stand up for what it is that 2 is yours, sometimes, you know, my cousin, he paid the 3 ultimate price. 4 And somebody says, what is that worth to 5 you? There's that old dollar sign again. What is that? 6 How is that going to fix it? It's like -- it's like the 7 old people, old Pearl, nice old lady, she was went 8 through that Ralph Brandt (phonetic) promise in 26 9 million going to rebuild her -- her community. Oh, she 10 was just happy. She's dead now. She never seen none of 11 that. 12 They just buried her day before Christmas. 13 What do you do? Where is this -- 14 Q: Mr. -- 15 A: -- where is this government that 16 promised the $26 million -- you know, rebuilding your 17 community? Whatever happened? Nothing happened. I've 18 had the same ones show up, going to promise to build a 19 healing lodge, that never happened. 20 And I have all the paperwork at home, I 21 show you where they bought the land, what they were going 22 to do with it and it never happened. They had that 23 opportunity. The money was there to build it and they 24 just turned it away. Said because they can't have nobody 25 come on that community that wants to share in any kind of
1991 traditional, cultural type of healing, because it's going 2 to shed some light on it. 3 And that's why. I know all about it. 4 It's sad but it's true. And it's kind of, like, after 5 the fact now. Why, it's hard to talk about this stuff 6 because the -- it -- it was there, they made the promise 7 and the media grabbed a hold of it. 8 Oh, made it sound so sweet, so pretty, so 9 beautiful, these guys are going to build a community in 10 Stoney Point. They're going to build a school, build 11 twenty-two (22) houses and all of the rest, the 12 infrastructures. Our old people are still dying. It 13 doesn't change nothing. 14 Q: Mr. George, I have one more area to 15 move into with you and that, of course, is the events of 16 September of '95. 17 And I'm wondering, Commissioner, if this 18 might be an appropriate time to break. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm on a roll. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 2:55
2001 --- Upon resuming at 3:10 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: Mr. George, prior to the folks moving 8 into the Provincial Park on September the 4th of 1995, I 9 understand that there had been some meetings, some 10 discussions about this occurring; were you aware of that? 11 A: I was aware of -- they had a -- a 12 feast the one (1) night. It was on that -- that sandy 13 road, there, right beside the Park, there, off East 14 Parkway and Army Camp Road there. And there was a little 15 feast there, I remember that. 16 Q: And just behind you, to your -- to 17 your right, there's a diagram there that's been marked in 18 these proceedings. Is that the location you refer to? 19 A: Yeah. The -- the location would be 20 right in this area, in here. 21 Q: It's been marked as P-23. And you're 22 -- you're indicating an area just in front of, I think, 23 what's been described as the turnstile? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And when was that feast
2011 held, Mr. George? 2 A: That would be just suppertime there, 3 I think. I know there's -- there's some things that I'm 4 not really quite sure of. I know that once they moved in 5 there, that's -- that's what they -- they had a feast 6 there. And that was the thing that -- as -- as part of 7 the ceremony that we were -- we were doing, was -- it was 8 like shedding some light on, you know, the spirits that 9 had been hungry. 10 We were -- we were there for a long time, 11 where the people never had access to -- to do those 12 things like that. And that's what the -- the Elders put 13 that together, that was -- that was the thing that -- 14 that was their doings, we basically, you know, got them 15 tables to sit on and stuff like that, and that's how that 16 happened. 17 As for any other type of meetings about 18 moving into the Park, I think that was a part of it that 19 they were kind of like -- I guess -- I guess it goes back 20 to prior to moving into the -- the Army Camp buildings, 21 like, the built-up area. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: The way that things happened there 24 was, I guess, similar to what went on. You know, like, I 25 guess it's around the 1st of June when some of these
2021 things were -- they had, like, charges on me for 2 whatever. 3 I -- I -- I have a hard time remembering 4 right now. But I -- I remember a lot of the -- the older 5 people were -- where they themselves were getting 6 frustrated that they were telling us that we couldn't go 7 near the built-up area if you had charges and stuff like 8 that. 9 And -- and that's their doings. They were 10 the ones that, you know, basically viewed themselves as 11 being next and that, you know, when you go to -- you go 12 to help those people and you -- you gather the things 13 they need. They -- they need water, you get them water; 14 they need wood, you get them wood. 15 You -- you do those things and, you know, 16 it's like, I guess that was their view on what it was 17 that they wanted to help, they wanted to do something. 18 They wanted to be active. 19 That's how that came to be and within our 20 culture, you know, you get some of the old people that -- 21 they're not going to tell you to do something. They 22 might suggest it to you that it would be nice if they'd 23 look after that Park because the water treatment plant is 24 located in there. And, you know, that was the extent of 25 the elders telling anybody.
2031 They told it to everybody and, you know, 2 that's something that I think their intentions weren't to 3 get anybody shot. I don't think it was their intentions 4 to harm anybody. I never heard them talk about, you 5 know, the -- the Pinery. I never heard them talk about 6 the cottagers or anything like that. It was just 7 strictly, you know, the -- the burial grounds in the 8 Park. 9 Q: Right. Now you referred to the water 10 plan and that's something that I think you -- you've 11 indicated that the elders had suggested to you it would 12 be nice if we -- I'm not sure how you just put it. But - 13 - but that is something that you had related to Officer 14 Speck at some point was it not, Mr. George? 15 A: I think I told Speck everything, to 16 tell you the truth, eh? 17 Q: But you were not -- 18 A: I didn't -- I -- 19 Q: You were not happy with the idea 20 that the water plant was within the perimeters of -- of 21 the Provincial Park? 22 A: To me there -- there was these -- it 23 was like the scales of what is -- what is just here. And 24 -- and when you -- when you hear it from the old people 25 talking about, you know, there being a -- a burial ground
2041 and there was no fence around it and -- and, you know, 2 and so on, there was no just to their actions as to 3 upholding whatever agreement of that day was. 4 And seems like today there's, I guess, 5 that opportunity to speak on that and that's all I know. 6 That's what I was told. 7 Q: Do you recall any specific meetings 8 where you might have relayed what it was you thought your 9 elders were suggesting or hinting at to you -- to others 10 -- with respect to moving into the Park, with respect to 11 taking over the Park? 12 A: Getting back to that last question, I 13 want -- I want you -- I want everybody here to know that 14 I know -- I've known George Speck for a long, long time 15 and I would never go into an in-depth thing with him 16 because he isn't worthy of it. 17 I know for a fact that in the past there 18 was a lot of people that made a lot of real clear, like, 19 statements to him and, you know, a couple other of his 20 colleagues about, you know, that things had shown up 21 without the uniform and the sidearms. 22 See, these -- these are things that were 23 said over and over again. It wasn't just said once, it 24 was over and over again. And still, to this very day, 25 they still show up with uniforms and sidearms.
2051 It's -- it's a -- it's a constant threat 2 to our Elders that this is, you know, something that they 3 asked for and it still goes on deaf ears. I don't know 4 how it is that, you know, you -- you confront them. I 5 don't think about the fact that you might have to beat it 6 into their heads, that's not the plan. 7 You -- you can only say things and 8 hopefully maybe somewhere, somehow the -- the ones in 9 charge or in authority take whatever it is to fix what 10 they done. Like, I -- I had this belief that -- that was 11 done there was wrong meaning them taking that land for an 12 Army Base, meaning them making a Provincial Park out of 13 an old cemetery. 14 And to me I know for a fact that they had 15 all of their documentation that proves what it is that 16 our elders have been telling us is true and that I know 17 we went through all of the different steps. Like, gees, 18 I should have brought a -- a list so I could put them up 19 there so you could see them because I went through so 20 many different avenues. 21 You know, speaking with Rosemary Herr 22 (phonetic), speaking with Robert Reid (phonetic), with 23 all of these different people about how can we do this 24 and -- and for some reason, you know, you try working 25 agreements and stuff like that.
2061 And somehow there's always somebody else 2 that -- that has this so-called chieftainship or whatever 3 that pulls the rug out from underneath you. And that -- 4 that's just the part of what took place. 5 So I don't -- I don't know how it is that 6 -- that some of these meetings -- if I could be 7 everywhere at those times I would have, but I'm only 8 human. I can't be in every spot at every given time and 9 I know for a fact that if was there, I would have had my 10 input and my say as to what it was that I was told as 11 what I believe is, you know, sacred grounds. 12 Q: Okay. So you're not denying that you 13 might have participated in meetings where there was 14 discussed the prospect of moving into the Provincial 15 Park? 16 A: I don't recall having a meeting with 17 -- with George Speck and them -- 18 Q: No, no, no. Not necessarily with 19 George Speck, but just generally, perhaps with others 20 from among the group. 21 A: Well I know for a fact that they -- 22 they spoke of all of the land but they only dealt with 23 this area right here as the -- the Military Park, the 24 Military training area. 25 And the issue of the Park was -- you know,
2071 the -- the water treatment plants in there and in that -- 2 it's -- it's like a safeguard that if you want fresh 3 water, safe drinking water, then you -- you have to look 4 after those things yourself. 5 And that was my understanding as to like 6 the reasons they moved into the Park. 7 Q: All right. Did you not -- did you 8 not tell Mr. Speck, though, or officer Speck that the 9 Provincial Park had been taken away from the natives by 10 the government? 11 A: I think I told all of them that. I - 12 - I wouldn't just say it was Speck. I think it was all 13 of the police, whoever come there. I think we told them 14 over and over again it was a -- it was like a broken 15 record, you know. 16 You know, you're given a new face, well 17 let's tell them the same thing. That's basically what we 18 -- we uncovered was every chance there was something that 19 went on, we got a new face, another uniform. 20 You know, we had, you know, consultants 21 from -- Jeez, it was ones from Ottawa that I met with. I 22 know there was consultants from, I think, pretty sure it 23 was out east somewhere. Manitoba, I think maybe. I know 24 that there was -- there was people that, like in Ottawa, 25 that supplied the -- at that time we asked for this
2081 information to -- to back up what it is that we were 2 talking about. 3 And if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure 4 that it was Carl George that had taken all this 5 information, you know. It was half a van load of stuff 6 from the RG-10 file loaded archives in Ottawa that he, in 7 turn, took to Kettle Point. 8 And these are the types of things that 9 were going on and those are the type of actions, I guess 10 that, you know that when you -- when you read things 11 where Carl being denounced as a chief, well, I didn't 12 claim to have him as my chief nor did I claim to let him 13 take information that just wasn't his that belonged to 14 all the people in the Camp. 15 In turn, he takes it to -- to Kettle Point 16 where they already have all that information. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: And see, these are the types of 19 things that -- that I think the people in the Camp have - 20 - went out of their way to explain their position on a 21 lot of those things that they -- they had the documents, 22 the proof to supply whoever these people were in 23 authority that the actions were just and that, you know, 24 it was a peaceful thing. 25 It was -- was directed to the politicians
2091 and, you know, when you -- when you got a council that, 2 you know, you know in the past was trying so hard to get 3 the land back and then once you're there occupying the 4 land, doing a about face, turn around and -- and call you 5 criminals, well, I myself, you know, I find it hard 6 talking to -- to police over things like that, you know. 7 It's a -- it's a-- it's a thing that I 8 felt myself getting worn down trying to educate people 9 about the land issue. But it's an ongoing thing. 10 Q: And I'm sure it's very frustrating, 11 Mr. George. Did you not -- you'll recall that you gave a 12 statement to the SIU, in October of '95, and I've 13 referred you to that earlier today. And in there at page 14 4, you had attributed the action -- the actions of the 15 people occupying the Park, to a failed land claim 16 litigation at Kettle Point. 17 I think you suggest something in your 18 statement, Mr. George, that the people were doing what 19 the judge should have decided. Now in fairness to you, 20 you also do mention the knowledge of the people about a 21 cemetery being in the Park but was it also your view that 22 that was one of the reasons that the people were in 23 there. Is that a view that you hold today? 24 A: Yeah. Oh yeah. Like I want -- I 25 want to -- I want to bring that out because they touched
2101 on it earlier on, that West Ipperwash was where my 2 grandfather Morris George had lived. See and that's the 3 thing that it was my grandfather Morris George had also 4 brought out the -- the fact that the Indian Agent at that 5 time was bribing those people. 6 He was -- he was paying them like fifteen 7 ($15) dollars to vote on the issue, you know. 8 Q: I can assure you we've had evidence 9 on that, but -- 10 A: And then another ten dollars ($10) to 11 vote yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: See and that was the thing that 14 Russell Rakes (phonetic) had taken this to -- to the 15 Supreme Court of Appeals where it was tossed out because 16 he couldn't produce one of those pieces of paper that 17 would prove there was a -- there was a bribery note 18 involved. 19 See this was my grandfather's land, see 20 and that's my -- on my mother's side. And then over here 21 to the -- to the Ipperwash Provincial Park they're 22 dealing with my -- great grandfather's burial grounds, as 23 to where he's buried and -- 24 Q: Is it your evidence, Mr. George, that 25 the people moved into the Park because it was traditional
2111 lands of the Stoney Point people number one (1), and 2 secondly, because there was a burial ground there? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And on September the 4th, 1995, I 5 understand that you were not present when the people 6 moved in? 7 A: I -- I was at the Park and then -- 8 pardon me, not the Park but I was on the beach where I 9 was living. And I remember coming up the beach and 10 coming up that Matheson Drive and I remember seeing a -- 11 a cruiser on -- like coming down the road, like, Matheson 12 Drive is along here, I think. 13 Q: Okay. You're pointing at a diagram 14 on the screen that's been marked as P-61, Mr. George. 15 A: Okay. I was coming up this road 16 here. It's a part of Matheson Drive and I was -- I was 17 living on the beach out this way and I come up this road 18 and there was a cruiser coming down the road here and 19 another cruiser there. And I got by the corner there and 20 there was a cruiser there and a cruiser sitting there and 21 I could see another one at the corner there. 22 And so what I did was I went around this 23 road and went back down there and I walked over to the 24 fence and I said, Hey, boys, there's -- there's a ton of 25 cruisers. And that's his -- that's my involvement right
2121 there. That's all I -- I never went in the Park. There 2 was -- 3 Q: Now when you say, "Hey boys," who 4 were you referring to? 5 A: There -- there was -- there was a 6 bunch of guys right at the end of the road here. There 7 always been, ever since '93 when this Park was full we 8 used to always have people right there because there was 9 people from the Park that used to lay right in the middle 10 of the road, right there. 11 I says as we try to come on their beach, 12 they'd lay right there trying to create that and I -- 13 I've got pictures of it. And it's the thing that, to me, 14 I've seen how the -- the part of being provoked even -- 15 even at that Park where these -- these people they -- 16 they knew that this beach was part of the land being 17 disputed. Just like this Park. Just like the Camp 18 Q: And for the record you've indicated 19 the upper most portion of Ipperwash Park on the east 20 side? 21 A: Hmm hmm. It would be the part that's 22 adjacent to the Military Camp. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. 24 A: And, you know, it's -- it's sad 25 sometimes, eh, like in this area here, the Military, they
2131 had their own little, they -- they called it the marriage 2 patch. And they have all running water, hydro that comes 3 out of this Park that supplied the Military personnel 4 there with their little own little trailer park. And the 5 remnants are still there. 6 I don't know if the Commission had 7 opportunity to travel through there to see that, that I 8 remember as a kid going through there and -- and driving 9 down this -- this road. It was always a thing that, I 10 guess, that I asked my dad and that, Hey let's -- let's 11 go camping out there. You wouldn't want to camp in 12 there. 13 You know, that's the way he put it to me, 14 eh, and the way he would say that to me, was, it's nice 15 around the beach, eh. 16 Q: Okay. I can tell you, Mr. George, 17 that we have had occasion to, as Commission and a -- a 18 counsel to the parties, to go out to that area and we've 19 had a chance to -- to take a view there. 20 A: Of the marriage patch? 21 Q: Yes. And secondly, we've also had an 22 opportunity to review a video. So, I think people in 23 here are familiar with what you -- with what you're 24 speaking to. 25 On that note, Mr. George, do you know
2141 whether or not -- and we've had others that have 2 testified that they believed that the OPP or the Ministry 3 of Natural Resources had been given prior notice that the 4 Park would be occupied at this particular point in time? 5 A: Beyond me, I -- I never knew that. 6 That's news to me. 7 Q: And on September the 4th of 1995, 8 you've already indicated that there were police cruisers 9 at various points around Ipperwash Provincial Park. 10 Did you notice any other police activity 11 in the area? 12 A: I basically was trying to, you know, 13 do what I've got to do just to look after myself because, 14 you know, it was like this being in, like, September and 15 I remember, like, prior -- prior to 1993, I -- I just was 16 working at Kettle Point at the time and by -- delay my 17 job simply because of the -- the part of the management 18 wasn't really helping me do my job. So, you know, I 19 handed it over to -- to the guys that were working there. 20 And then, '94 was -- was the time that I 21 went back to work in the -- in the union with Bill 22 Johnson Construction, you know. And it -- it was a thing 23 that, you know, worked there all the -- that whole year. 24 And then coming into '95, I -- I never got called back to 25 work because of, like, my boss was asking me these
2151 questions about a old pickup truck that -- 2 Q: I'm sure that's all very interesting, 3 Mr. George, I'm just wondering though about the question 4 I asked you -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- whether you had noticed any other 7 police presence on that day? 8 A: That's what I'm working on. I'm 9 trying -- I'm trying to explain that to you here, that I 10 -- I've had -- 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just a minute please, 12 Mr. George, this is a little bit unusual but I'm doing it 13 for your benefit and the benefit of the Commission. 14 There's going to be a long transcript and many times 15 people want to see what's the question and what's the 16 answer. 17 So, if it is that -- it would be of great 18 assistance if you listen the question of Commission 19 Counsel, you give him his answer. Later on, when I'm up, 20 I can brush up anything else that you want to. But if he 21 asks you, Did you speak with a police officer, the answer 22 could be yes or no. 23 And I -- I sort of strongly suggest that 24 for the benefit of the record and the Commission, that we 25 -- we just try to shorten the answers. We -- we can't
2161 tell you what to say. You're the witness. You've got to 2 put your position on the record, but if you can put it in 3 a compact form, I think it would be of help to all of us. 4 Thank you. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I seen lots of cops 6 around. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: Thank you for that, Mr. George. 10 A: Every -- every time I went to the 11 store, every time I went to Forest, every time I went to 12 Thedford, you name it. 13 Q: All right. And on -- 14 A: And they still patrol the area to 15 this very day. 16 Q: All right. And on that particular 17 day, and again I'm referring to September the 4th of '95, 18 were you in the presence of Bert Manning and several 19 others at approximately 7:30 in the p.m. and engaged in a 20 conversation with one Sergeant Korosec? 21 A: Not me. 22 Q: Do you know a Sergeant Korosec? 23 A: I met him a couple times, yeah. 24 Q: All right. And if there is a report 25 that has you yelling and swearing and claiming the Park
2171 and telling Sergeant Korosec that all of the people who 2 lived west of the Park to Ravenswood, that you would be 3 taking that land next, and that the chain on the fence 4 was then cut; what do you say to that? 5 A: I wasn't there. I know who you're 6 talking about, I know when these things happened, but I 7 wasn't there. 8 Q: All right. Do you know an officer 9 Larry Parks? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. Did you have any conversation 12 with him around this time? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And what was the nature of that? 15 A: The nature of that conversation was I 16 was standing in the -- in the area of the -- the marriage 17 patch and I remember that Larry Parks was -- was down -- 18 he was about half way to the beach, because across from 19 the marriage patch is the gateway that they're talking 20 about, they cut the gate. 21 And I was up right there on the edge of 22 the marriage patch and I was watching. 23 Q: Okay. So you deny yelling? 24 A: I wasn't yelling. I just heard -- 25 Q: Okay. That's all I'm asking.
2181 A: I just heard Larry Parks say to me, 2 did you pay your fine yet? And I says come on over here 3 and get your fine. That's all I said. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And that was -- that was my 6 involvement in it-- 7 Q: And if there was a suggestion that 8 Bert Manning had made an agreement to meet with Sergeant 9 Korosec the following day, and you came along and ended 10 that arrangement, you -- 11 A: I don't ever remember going to any 12 meeting -- 13 Q: -- don't -- 14 A: -- with Bert Manning. 15 Q: I'm sorry? 16 A: I don't remember any meeting with 17 Bert Manning. 18 Q: Evidently, if it -- well, if it's 19 suggested that an agreement had been made prior to your 20 arriving there, but you cancelled that meeting, is that 21 something that -- that you recall? 22 A: No. 23 Q: That you can adopt or that you deny? 24 A: I -- I've no knowledge of any meeting 25 with Bert Manning and this police officer. I -- I don't
2191 ever remember that because half the time Bert Manning 2 wasn't around. 3 And the other half he'd be staring at his 4 nose and for me to think that I was partaking in a 5 meeting with him, is another one of them sensationalised 6 stories that people want to involve me in stuff that I 7 had no part in. 8 Q: Okay. So aside from your watching 9 from an area that you've described as, and has been 10 described by others as the marriage patch, which is on 11 the Camp side adjacent to Ipperwash Park, you had no 12 involvement in the entry of the Park on the 4th of 13 September? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. On September the 5th, I 16 understand that you had attended at the Park on that day, 17 that you had attended at a -- at a feast that was held 18 there. Perhaps even part of the preparation for that? 19 A: I'm only aware of going to a feast on 20 the -- it would be like the night before Dudley got shot. 21 They had -- they had a feast on there and that's the only 22 one that I remember going to. 23 Q: And you say that that was at night, 24 or in the evening? 25 A: It was at supper time. It's the only
2201 one that I remember going to. 2 Q: And would it have been the same time, 3 Mr. George, that there had been some picnic tables that 4 had been moved into the parking lot? 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: All right. Were you part of that 7 moving of picnic tables into the parking lot? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. Were you aware that the police 10 had arrived and that there was some interaction as a 11 result of those picnic tables being in the parking lot? 12 A: I -- I heard that yeah, they rammed 13 into them but I never -- I never seen that part happen. 14 I was -- I was there that -- to share in the feast, that 15 was it. 16 Q: Okay. And I know I'd asked you this 17 earlier, but we have a report at Inquiry Document 1002058 18 where there was evidently an intelligence report that 19 suggested there were seven (7) natives from Oneida that 20 were going to come to Ipperwash and offer you armed 21 support. 22 There was some suggestion that they were 23 to be in possession of semi-automatic assault rifles and 24 9mm Glocks which I understand to be side arms or pistols. 25
2211 Do you know anything about that at all? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Had anybody come to you offering 4 weapons, whether from Oneida or anywhere on the planet? 5 A: No. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Aside from the feast that you -- did 10 you -- you attended the feast, I gather, on the 5th of 11 September? 12 A: This is the day before, right? 13 Q: This is the day before, yes. 14 A: That's when I was there, the day 15 before, like. 16 Q: And aside from that, I take it you 17 didn't stay in the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: You didn't have any interaction with 20 OPP? 21 A: I remember there was -- there was 22 stuff that was going on, you know. I know George Speck 23 was around in there because I -- I got there just shortly 24 after his window got smashed. So I don't know what day 25 that was. I'm lost on days as to that -- when that
2221 happened. 2 But I remember I was -- I was there just 3 shortly after. 4 Q: Okay. Just on that note, were you in 5 the Park or were you outside the Park when -- when Mr. 6 Speck's window got smashed? 7 A: I wasn't there. I just got there 8 after. I come from -- 9 Q: I see. 10 A: -- I come from the beachfront because 11 I -- I heard there was stuff going on and I come there to 12 check it out and that's what was going on. There was a 13 window smashed out. 14 Q: And I take it that at -- in the -- on 15 the evening of the 5th of September you would have stayed 16 at your residence at the built-up area? 17 A: I was living down on the beach plus I 18 was still cleaning out that -- that area where I'm living 19 now. Like that's -- that was a job that, you know, it 20 took a while to clean out because it was -- 21 Q: You may have been at your residence 22 at the beach then -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- is that -- is that fair? 25 A: Yep.
2231 Q: And on the 6th of September you were 2 at the Provincial Park. At least at some point in the 3 afternoon in the presence of David George, Nicholas 4 Cotrelle, Rose Manning. 5 Do you recall those individuals being 6 there? 7 A: I -- I seen everybody in there. 8 Everybody, you know, that lived in the -- in the -- in 9 the Camp at one point in time, went in and out, even 10 you -- 11 Q: So if somebody observed you in the 12 Park at around 2:30, three o'clock in the afternoon on 13 September the 6th of '95, you wouldn't dispute that? 14 A: Well I was probably -- I was probably 15 in there because I didn't -- I didn't really hang around 16 there, you know. It was something that, you know, there 17 -- there was this thing happening. It was in the air, 18 you could -- you can sense it that, you know, was -- 19 there was this thing of uncertainty. You know. 20 Q: There was tension. 21 A: That too, yeah. 22 Q: All right. And we've had a -- a 23 witness in fact just the previous witness, Mrs. Gina 24 George, who testified that there were a couple of 25 officers that were outside the Park fence that were
2241 attempting to engage people inside the Park in some kind 2 of a discussion. You're aware of that? 3 A: Yep. 4 Q: And that in fact you had a discussion 5 with an OPP officer, now deceased, by the name of 6 Margaret Eve. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Can you -- as I understand that 9 conversation, she wanted to talk about negotiating the 10 departure from the Park of the people that were in the 11 Park? 12 A: I don't know what her intentions 13 were. All's -- all's I heard out of her was that I was 14 the leader and that I led all these people in there and 15 as soon as I heard that, I just told her to run back 16 where you come from, you know. 17 She -- she kind of hinted around that part 18 of -- of -- she had once said to me that she was the 19 negotiator. And I just told her that, you know, my 20 understanding under a land dispute, there's -- there's to 21 be like a third party tribunal made up of all of these 22 people involved. And I just looked at her and said, 23 you're not that negotiator and I walked away. 24 Q: And she wasn't that negotiator, why, 25 Mr. George?
2251 A: I just got done telling you. See, 2 land negotiations are -- are to be, you know, by -- by a 3 third party tribunal. Not by somebody who claims to have 4 authority. Like, I don't know what her authority was. 5 She said she was a negotiator but I kind of think now 6 back at that, that she was, you know, she was a part of 7 this plan to come in there and shoot people when they 8 talk of a negotiator. 9 Is this the standoff thing that -- or is 10 this a land claim thing? See my understanding was it was 11 a political thing to -- to raise awareness on how to get 12 the land back. See and -- and their view to me, what I 13 find out now, that somebody's dead and now they -- they - 14 - they have a negotiator that what did they negotiate? 15 See like -- like that was the thing that 16 left me kind of questioning. Where -- where are these 17 people coming from? Like, who are these people? What do 18 they want? 19 You know, they show up with a gun and a 20 badge and they say they're a negotiator. Like, come on 21 now, like, wasn't born yesterday, it was one of those 22 things that, you know, like, I know for a fact that 23 Indian Affairs knew about these things. I know that the 24 DND knew about these things. 25 Provincially, I knew that they knew about
2261 the things within the Park, that -- I was told that there 2 was an old document that -- that was put in the RG-10 3 file that talked about the old Indians that used to go 4 there and cut wood for -- like, off the limbs. 5 And I -- I read these old documents where 6 the guy in the Park, there, said -- said to the guy, I 7 need to have some kind of protection. So they issued him 8 a gun just because the Indians were in the Park with an 9 ax cutting wood. 10 I know all of these things as to what 11 stockpile of papers my mother had, and I used to read 12 these things. And -- and me knowing that these people 13 knew exactly what it is that the people that are in there 14 are doing, what they're doing -- 15 Q: Mr. George, I'm sure that that's very 16 much appreciate. I'm -- I'm wondering though if you 17 could speak to the question, and that is did you have a 18 conversation with Margaret Wright, was she in the company 19 of one Sergeant Wright -- pardon me, Margaret Eve, was 20 she in the company of one Sergeant Wright? 21 A: Yeah. Oh yeah. 22 Q: And this occurred in the afternoon 23 and it occurred on -- with one (1) party on one (1) side 24 of the fence and the other on the other? You spoke over 25 the fence, in other words?
2271 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: But that was the extent of it, just 4 like what I told you. 5 Q: And as this conversation was going 6 on, can you tell us whether or not Dudley George was in 7 the vicinity? Do you recall him being in the vicinity 8 and saying something to the effect that, We'll do our 9 negotiating with guns? 10 A: I don't know what he said. I -- I 11 wasn't there. I -- I know that I seen Dudley here, 12 there, everywhere that day, you know, like, just like any 13 other day. If -- if you see somebody, you know, 14 sometimes you invite him over for coffee or something 15 like that. 16 And I don't know if that happened even 17 that morning because I usually made that a part of my 18 morning if I seen somebody, Come on over for coffee, 19 we've got the coffee on. Like, that's the way it is. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I didn't see him that morning. So, 22 to me, what was said to -- to that woman and that man, I 23 don't know what was said before I got there. All's I 24 know is what I told them. 25 Q: That's what I'm asking you whether,
2281 in your presence, did you hear any such thing coming 2 from -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- Mr. Dudley George? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. We are told that there 7 was an incident that occurred somewhere in the vicinity 8 of that intersection, just over your right should -- 9 left shoulder, Mr. George, that involved Stewart George 10 and Gerald George? 11 A: I wasn't there. I know nothing about 12 that. 13 Q: In your statement to the SIU, which I 14 -- I referred to you earlier, you reported that you had 15 observed Gerald George after the incident though? 16 A: Well, I -- 17 Q: Does that -- does that assist you at 18 all in recalling whether or not you seen -- 19 A: I -- 20 Q: -- Gerald George, and I'm not asking 21 about the incident itself. I appreciate your answer that 22 you didn't see it. 23 A: I was -- I was coming down Army Camp 24 Road and right along here I seen Gerald George talking to 25 -- there was a -- there was two (2) cruisers and there
2291 was about, I don't know, six (6) or seven (7) officers 2 that were -- that were standing. 3 And I'm -- I'm coming from the built-up 4 area and I'm going down the road in a dump trunk and I 5 see this. That's the extent of what I -- I didn't know 6 what happened prior to that. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I just seen him there, that -- and 9 I'm looking. And I'm -- I'm not so much scratching my 10 head like this but I'm saying, This guy's a councillor, 11 what's he doing talking to the -- to these cops over 12 here? And so, I watched it for a little while and I 13 drove down to the Park. Then I find out that this is 14 what happened, just like I -- 15 Q: I see. 16 A: -- just like -- 17 Q: You indicated that you were operating 18 a dump truck? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And why the dump truck as opposed to 21 any other vehicle you may have had at your disposal? 22 A: Gees, I can't remember now. I know - 23 - I know that my car was -- was leaking oil, that's why I 24 basically quit driving it at the time. I was putting 25 more oil in it than gas.
2301 Q: Did it appear to you that your 2 operation of this dump truck was drawing more attention 3 than you might have, had you been operating any other 4 vehicle? 5 A: Well let me share with you this, that 6 -- that dump truck was basically sent in there by my 7 brother, just like the bus that, you know, my nephews 8 were going to be, you know, putting this thing to work 9 and that's what it was for, like. 10 I don't know. If -- you know, if I was to 11 raise a question about how many dump trucks go by on 21 12 Highway and how many people would stop to respond to me, 13 saying, why are you driving down there, you know, we want 14 to know what you're hauling. 15 You know, like, maybe that's what we need 16 to do. I don't know, like -- 17 Q: But in fairness -- 18 A: -- you know, barricade the highway. 19 Q: -- Mr. George, you know, people 20 driving down 21 might not necessarily be engaged in the 21 same things that was going on at the time. 22 A: Well, as far as I'm concerned, like 23 that was the only other set of wheels other than the 24 tractor. 25 Q: All right. Thank you. Earlier or --
2311 later on in that evening, you were observed in the 2 company of others and I believe we had a witness here 3 who's indicated to us that you had provided perhaps not 4 so much instructions, as advise, to get wood and to make 5 sure that the fires are burning. 6 A: I -- I wasn't one for going around 7 giving orders. If -- if there's people that said I did, 8 well then maybe I did, but I don't -- I don't recall 9 telling anybody to go get this or go get that. 10 It was one of those things that, you know, 11 like I was there long enough on my own that if I wanted 12 to go get firewood, I'd go get it myself if that's what 13 it was. I -- 14 Q: And I take it that around this time, 15 Mr. George, that you would have then went back to the -- 16 to the barracks or to the range and it was reported that 17 you had attended on Mr. Clifford George to speak with 18 him. 19 A: Yeah, I've ... 20 Q: Can you tell us about that? 21 A: This -- yeah, this is just prior to 22 what was going on because I was kind of trying to find 23 out what exactly was happening because I know there was 24 things that were going on that just seemed kind of 25 strange, like there wasn't no traffic going by.
2321 There was -- there was things that -- that 2 you felt this thing where there was people that were 3 uneasy. They were stirring about. They were -- they 4 were active. Usually you seen them where they -- they 5 basically never really moved around too fast, period. 6 Even with that -- that I went and talked 7 to Clifford. I was asking Clifford as to what -- what is 8 this? What -- what's going on here? Is this -- is this 9 what, you know -- has evolved here. 10 And he kind of -- I think he might have 11 mentioned to me that, you know, there was talk of in the 12 -- in the other families that were in the Camp that some 13 of them were moving out because of a -- of police build- 14 up, eh? 15 And that's about as much as I know. 16 That's kind of like what I guess trying to find out what 17 -- what do you do? Like, what -- what's going on? Like, 18 I was trying to ask around questions about what -- what's 19 happening here, you know? 20 Like, is -- it seemed that everything was 21 calm until that time when I went down the road and I seen 22 Booper talking with the cops. Like, to me, ever since 23 then that's -- it's like the eerie feeling after that. 24 Q: All right. And during the time that 25 you were speaking to and seeking the advice of Mr.
2331 Clifford George, we are told that this altercation, this 2 fight took place in the sandy parking lot, and that 3 Dudley George was subsequently shot and killed. 4 A: I don't think it happened that fast. 5 I think there was a couple of hours in between that. 6 Like, I remember it was in the light of day that I was 7 driving down around and I said there's old Booper over 8 there talking to the cops, you know -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I don't think -- oh, jeez, I think it 11 was around eleven o'clock, I think when I --I found out 12 Dudley got shot. 13 Q: What time was it when you were 14 speaking with Mr. Clifford George, if you can recall? 15 A: It would be probably after dark, 16 after -- after this stuff was -- with Booper and Stuart 17 went on, because I was coming down the road and it was 18 still daylight. I could see them. And I then I went and 19 talked to them about what was going on, what happened. 20 And then that's when I -- I went up the road and -- and - 21 - and I seen that -- that thing again, just like -- just 22 like the day before. There was cops everywhere again. 23 See now, and that's the thing that it -- 24 it wasn't by our doing in the Camp, it was somebody that 25 come in there and it wasn't from -- it wasn't from
2341 Oneida, it was Kettle Point. And these guys were 2 councillors. That's what made it seem so eerie. 3 Here -- here it is where you've got 4 councillors that -- that, you know, like I remember 5 reading it myself in the newspaper, calling everybody 6 Army Camp Indians and a bunch of assholes. 7 Like, I'm not saying that if I -- if I 8 wasn't there to see this that -- that I would stop it, 9 I'd -- I'd probably go over there and slap the guy in the 10 head myself for saying that. You know, to -- to claim to 11 be a councillor and then say things like and, you know, 12 he -- he shows up at a time like this. To me, there's 13 nothing right about that. 14 Q: When you refer to Booper, you're 15 referring to Gerald George? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And again, just so I 18 understand, Mr. George, between the time that you were 19 speaking to Clifford George seeking his advice and such 20 and the time that you found out Dudley was shot, how much 21 time had elapsed? 22 A: I think I -- I think I was talking to 23 Clifford -- it would be around just after dark. And then 24 I think that would be maybe, what, 8:30 -- nine o'clock 25 in the -- in -- around that time of year, in September?
2351 And then, I think it was around 11:00 when Dudley got 2 shot, I think. Somewhere around there, a little after 3 11:00, probably two (2) hours. 4 Q: All right. And in that intervening 5 two (2) hours, I understand that you had built a fire at 6 -- somewhere along the -- the road that runs adjacent to 7 Army Camp Road inside the Camp? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And where would that be, if you could 10 point it out on P-40 up on the big screen? 11 A: Probably right about there. 12 Q: And you're indicating a location just 13 to the north of the built-up area? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Would you also take the pen and mark 16 on the paper copy in front of you? I think if you would 17 put a number 3 there? I believe that's number 3, Mr. 18 Registrar? 19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, number 3. 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was -- it was one 21 (1) of those things that when -- when I pulled up there 22 at that time I was -- I was still in the truck, eh, and 23 this is what I seen on me right here. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:
2361 Q: And you're pointing the laser -- 2 A: This is -- this is what I seen on me 3 is lights like that, all over me. That's what I seen. 4 That's why I made that fire. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And then I don't know why, but it 7 just so happens there was straw, there was old screen 8 doors and old -- old screens off the windows and, like, 9 crates. I bet you I had a fire bigger than that ceiling 10 in about a minute. 11 Q: Okay, so you built a large fire? 12 A: Yeah, but that didn't stop the lights 13 from shining on me. 14 Q: With respect to those lights, do you 15 have -- do you know what they were? 16 A: I don't think it was this. I think 17 they were looking at me like this. 18 Q: All right. And did you get to the 19 Park at any time after that? 20 A: From the time I lit that fire and the 21 time when I got down there, that was when I helped pick 22 Dudley up and put him in the car. 23 Q: Okay. And just on that event, what 24 is your recollection on that, Mr. George? 25 A: To my understanding, like, when I --
2371 when I grabbed him I said, I'm going to pick you up now 2 and he wasn't like spaghetti, he -- he went like that. 3 He -- he stiffened himself up because we picked him up. 4 He was conscious. I -- I talked to him; he -- he 5 responded to me, eh? 6 Q: Did you notice who else was around 7 the area? 8 A: I remember J.T. because J.T. got in 9 the car. 10 Q: That's J.T. Cousins? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I remember, oh, gees, everybody when 14 they -- when you think about it there's -- there's so 15 many different things that -- now I think about it I 16 can't even remember who was driving the car. 17 I don't know if it was -- I just remember 18 J.T. and I remember -- because I grabbed Dudley like that 19 -- that -- just told him, Hang on, that's when he 20 stiffened up we were able to pick him up and put him in 21 the back of that car. That's kind of like where -- 22 Q: Did you see the car leave? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I understand you made a phone 25 call from the phone in the Park?
2381 A: Well, I seen the car go up the road 2 and that's -- that's as much as I remember as to -- I 3 don't -- I -- I never knew what went on up the built-up 4 area, I never -- I never seen who got in the other car. 5 I didn't -- I didn't -- I knew nothing of it. 6 Q: Okay. Did you see Nicholas Cotrelle 7 at all in the -- in the vicinity? 8 A: I'm pretty sure he was being taken 9 out there at the same time. And to me it was -- it was 10 one (1) of those things that -- that after -- after the 11 Park I remember after Dudley had been taken up towards 12 the front, I remember I seen -- I seen Elwood over at the 13 fire and I think this was -- 14 Q: Which fire are we talking about? 15 A: The fire in the Park. There was a 16 fire in the Park that -- I remember Elwood was cooking 17 hamburgers after Dudley got shot and they were taking 18 away. We burned tobacco and he made some hamburgers up 19 and thought maybe somebody would eat but I -- I don't 20 know if anybody ate. 21 We -- we stayed by the fire. And for some 22 reason I had this feeling over me that I had to go and 23 check on something. I didn't know what and when I got to 24 the front, the first thing where's my mom, that was the 25 next thing that went through my -- my mind was where's my
2391 mom. 2 Q: And again, Mr. George, when you say 3 you went up to the front, you mean up to the barracks 4 area? 5 A: Yep. And that's -- 6 Q: Were you at -- were you at the Park 7 when the Park store was burned? 8 A: I remember hearing them say, Torch 9 it, that was when Dudley was pronounced dead. That's 10 what I -- that's what I heard. 11 Q: And aside from hearing that, did you 12 have any participation in that? 13 A: No. I think I was trying to -- I 14 think maybe use the phone I think because I was trying to 15 find out where my mom was. Like I was -- I was trying to 16 do all of the above but, you know. If I had enough arms 17 and legs, I would have probably burnt the building down 18 too. But I was too busy, you know. 19 But I, you know, like to me I -- you got - 20 - you got a -- like a thing that's happening and it's see 21 -- you've got a ton of things running through your mind, 22 you know. And you kind of get these things flashing on 23 you and you kind of wonder, you know, are they still 24 waiting for you to get out in the open or something like 25 that, eh.
2401 And even though with all that I still 2 wasn't worried about anything. Like they can only kill 3 you once type of thing. And but it wasn't -- that wasn't 4 what we went there for and that wasn't why we were there, 5 it was, you know, to look at somebody wanting to shoot 6 you or get shot or to shoot somebody. 7 That wasn't what we were there for. So it 8 kind of changed the way that a lot of people had viewed 9 why are we here. 10 Q: Right. And as a result of being at 11 the Park, you've told us that you were charged for that. 12 You were charged with forcible entry as I understand? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And acquitted. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: If you can just give me a moment, Mr. 17 George. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: I think, Mr. George, those are all 22 the questions that I have right now. And there are other 23 Counsel here that I'm sure will be interested in speaking 24 to you, as well. And I'm sure you'll give them your 25 attention.
2411 I'm wondering, Mr. Commissioner, if 2 perhaps it would be appropriate to canvass other Counsel 3 and -- and perhaps give an estimate as to where we might 4 be with this witness then. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's five 6 (5) after 4:00, so let's just see what the lay of land 7 is. Who is expecting to cross-examine this witness? 8 Okay. Okay. Yes, Ms. Esmonde...? 9 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Maybe ten (10) 10 minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 12 minutes. And Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 14 Commissioner, I anticipate that I would be about an hour. 15 To be quite candid, perhaps with the benefit of the 16 evening I can get a better estimate, in light of the fact 17 that Mr. George has covered an awful lot of area that 18 impacts upon my Client. It's difficult for me to provide 19 you with a firm estimate. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you were 21 to make an estimate now it would be an hour? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 We'll wait until tomorrow. We may do this again but 25 we'll see.
2421 Yes, Ms. Jones, on behalf of the OPPA? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, at 3 this point in time I take it to be two (2) to three (3) 4 hours. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 6 Downard...? 7 MR. PETER DOWNARD: One (1) to two (2) 8 hours, subject to the Commission. 9 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: I expect five (5), 10 maybe fifteen (15) minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 What should we do? Should we try to get some of it done 13 now? I think so. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: There are -- there are 15 some parties that have indicated an abbreviated time -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: -- time frame and 18 perhaps it might be useful to use this time. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 20 start. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 24 is Jackie Esmonde. I'm one (1) of the lawyers 25 representing the Aazhoodena and George Family Group,
2431 which includes some of your brothers and sisters. I have 2 a few questions for you arising from your testimony 3 earlier. 4 Just before you finished this afternoon 5 you said that you went to the front to find out about 6 your mother? Sorry, this was on the evening of September 7 6th, after the shooting? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And can you tell me what happened 10 when you went to the front to find out about your mother? 11 A: Well, I found out that -- again, it's 12 like subject to change, I don't -- I don't know, I heard 13 that they went straight across and then I heard that they 14 went towards Port Franks, down Highway 21. And that's as 15 far as I found out that night, eh. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And that's -- 18 Q: Okay. And -- 19 A: -- I don't know what happened. I -- 20 I only wished to hear that later on, eh. 21 Q: Okay. So, from what you had heard, 22 you had heard that she had left the Camp? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And nobody knew where she was? 25 A: Well, I knew that she had left with
2441 my sister Marcie and I didn't know where they were going, 2 eh. They -- they indicated at the gate when they were 3 leaving that they were looking for a phone -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- and wanted to go and try to phone 6 for help, I think. 7 Q: And I take it you were concerned 8 about them, about what had happened to them? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now, this morning you made reference 11 to the Great Law of Peace and I was wondering if you 12 could just explain to us what that is? 13 A: I don't think there's enough hours in 14 today to do that. 15 Q: Okay. Is it possible to give us a 16 brief sense of what you mean by that? 17 A: The Great Law is a -- is a -- is a 18 covenant that the -- the Great Spirit, Gennadoe 19 (phonetic), the Creator had given to us as to how we 20 would govern ourselves. It's a part of a wampum belt 21 that I -- I remember reading in the McKenzie Institute 22 about a -- about a Mohawk flag being flown. That's -- 23 like, the whole McKenzie Institute is -- can't be worth 24 anything. 25 So, to understand the Great Law of Peace
2451 is -- is a thing that a person would have to take that 2 time to understand the cultural aspects in this area that 3 they -- it comes with seven teachings that are seven (7) 4 sacred rocks in this area, and that the alter of the 5 Great Law of Peace is at Pipestone, Minnesota. That's 6 where all the sacred peace pipes come from. 7 To understand that, that's -- that's -- to 8 me, the way I was told, it was over a four (4) day -- 9 saying teachings that they had taken me through to teach 10 me the stuff about the sacredness of Aazhoodena and the 11 role that it plays. And that to me, I kind of look at 12 that as -- as -- it'd be nice to teach everybody in this 13 room. 14 It'd be nice to teach all of the OPPs and 15 all of the RCMP, all the Military, but I think it's too 16 much too late that I'm not going to -- I'm not going to 17 indulge all of this stuff after my cousin's paid the 18 ultimate price. That's why we had the flag flying then 19 was hoping that they would have asked then what is that 20 flag? 21 See, because they wouldn't be acting war- 22 like, they'd be acting more peacefully. See, and to 23 respond to that part about Mrs. Marg Eve, that's what was 24 explained to her that this is a peaceful thing and that 25 that part of the ceremony of the great law of peace was
2461 done by a peace pipe. And that anybody that wants to 2 come here and be warlike will face that great law of 3 peace and they will be made peaceful real peacefully. 4 That's the understanding that I'm going to 5 share with you that those ones that don't want to be like 6 that will find their perpetual peacefulness in the 7 graveyard. That's the way the great law of peace works 8 and it's not me, it's that guy up there. That's his 9 doings and that's the -- that's the understanding that, 10 to us, these people that come there under the cover of 11 darkness had no knowledge of a war that took place there 12 seven hundred (700) years prior to them coming there. 13 And the things that they endured and the 14 things that they are going to be going through is that 15 they are going to be made peacefully, real peacefully. 16 Like -- that's the thing that they can't hide under the 17 cover of darkness under that great law. 18 Q: Thank you for sharing that. I 19 understand then it's a sacred teaching central to your 20 people and I won't ask you to spend four (4) days 21 explaining it to us. I appreciate what you've shared 22 with us. 23 Now, I think I understand from what you've 24 told us today that your desire is to have the land 25 returned to the Stoney Point people?
2471 A: That's kind of like those questions 2 when you use the English language makes it hard, you 3 know. The -- the Aazhoodena has always been Aazhoodena. 4 And, you know, like they -- the old Indian Agent of the 5 day seemed to bring Kettle Point/Stoney Point as one (1) 6 when in our language, Wiikwedong and Aazhoodena are two 7 (2) separate geographical places. 8 And I don't -- I don't ever think that, 9 you know, London's going to ask Windsor to look after 10 their internal stuff. I don't think it happens like 11 that. Maybe they do, you know, like, stranger things 12 have happened. Like, I've -- I've seen TRU Team members 13 come from all over, so maybe they do. 14 Q: Okay. But from what I understand, 15 you spoke about the dollar and your -- what your desire 16 is, is to have the land back. You're not looking for 17 money in replacement for the land, for example? 18 A: To me, I want to be rich. I want to 19 be the richest guy in the world. What kind of question 20 is that? Is that what you're asking? 21 Q: My question is: If there was going 22 to be some kind of settlement with the Canadian 23 Government over these land claims, or with any 24 government, your desire is for the land, it's not for 25 money in place of the land, for example?
2481 A: Well, the way I look at it 2 personally, if -- if -- if that's what those people want, 3 then that's what they should get and if that's what they 4 get, then so be it, that's their choice. That's -- to 5 me, my job would be done and then I could go in the bush 6 somewhere and live as a hermit or something like that. I 7 wouldn't have to worry with the things that follow money. 8 Q: Thank you. Those are all my 9 questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. Even though it's not quite 4:30, I think this 12 is a good time to break and come back tomorrow morning. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Thank you. 14 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. Thank you very much. Are you okay to come 17 back tomorrow morning at nine o'clock? 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much. 21 22 (WITNESS RETIRES) 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 25 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, February the 2nd at
2491 9:00 a.m. 2 3 --- Upon adjourning at 4:13 p.m. 4 5 6 Certified Correct 7 8 9 10 11 ________________________ 12 Wendy Warnock 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25