11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 8th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 28 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 61 10 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 65 11 12 WARREN GEORGE, Jr., Sworn 13 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 67 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 214 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-111 Document 1002409, page 13, Map Of 83 4 Ipperwash Military Reserve, Marked 5 by witness Mr. Warren George, 6 December 08/04. 7 P-112 "Stan" Thompson drawing September 165 8 20/95 marked by Witness Mr. Warren 9 George December 08/04 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon convening at 10:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. I thought that for the benefit of 10 everyone, that I might just outline the plan for the 11 balance of the week. When we're finished Mr. Bernard 12 George this morning, we will be calling Mr. Warren 13 George. We anticipate that Mr. Warren George will be the 14 balance of the day and into tomorrow. 15 We do not want to call a witness tomorrow 16 that would -- who would not be finished -- who would be 17 hanging over for a month and so we will stop tomorrow 18 with -- when we're finished Mr. Warren George, we will 19 stop until January 10th. So I just wanted to let 20 everybody know so they can plan accordingly. 21 But we will -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- not be calling Mr. 25 Leland George this week.
81 2 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 5 morning. 6 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 8 Jackson...? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 10 Mr. Commissioner. Good morning, Mr. George. 11 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 14 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and 15 I'm here today on behalf of the OPP. 16 Sir, as I understand your evidence, the 17 first time you tried to diffuse the situation at the Park 18 was when you addressed the Crowd Management Unit as they 19 marched along East Parkway Drive. Do I have that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yesterday, sir, you raised the issue 23 as to why the Anishnaabek police of Kettle and Stony 24 Point did not play a role during the occupation prior to 25 the shooting of Mr. George.
91 And I anticipate that we're going to hear 2 evidence why the OPP did not involve them at that 3 particular stage, but I want to ask you a number of 4 questions on that issue. 5 It's correct as I understand it, sir, that 6 you were a member of the Band Council in 1995? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And as I understand it 9 and I do want you to correct me, sir, if my understanding 10 is inaccurate, the Anishnaabek police at Kettle and 11 Stoney Point were accountable to a police committee in 12 that territory? 13 A: Part and parcel, yes. 14 Q: Part and parcel? And again I'm -- 15 I'm restricting my questions to the time frame of 1995. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Just so that we're clear on that. 18 Can you explain to me then what you mean by part and 19 parcel? 20 A: Well there was -- there was a 21 committee yes, within that Band from Council and there 22 was also -- there was also involvement with Anishnaabek 23 which their -- their head office was in the north in the 24 Sault Ste. Marie area. 25 So they -- I guess they were accountable
101 to -- to the head office and Sault Ste. Marie and also 2 accountable to the Band Council as well as the committees 3 that were formed to help further structure that. 4 Q: Which makes sense. The committee, 5 the police committee, was it established by the council? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Back, sir, in 1995 did you sit 8 as a member of that police committee? 9 A: No, I didn't. 10 Q: Were you involved in any way, sir, in 11 its establishment? 12 A: Partially, yes. 13 Q: Okay. I -- I trust, sir, and I don't 14 want you to take it as a criticism but I just want to 15 clarify it. 16 I trust, sir, that at no time during the 17 period of September 4th to the 6th did you approach the 18 Anishnaabek police at Kettle and Stony Point with a view 19 to having them become involved in the occupation? 20 A: No, I -- I talked to officers about 21 it but not -- no, directly I did not get involved heavily 22 into that issue. Like I mentioned I was working at the 23 time and the police had their business but I -- I talked 24 to some of them individually about it. 25 Q: And I'm sorry, you talked to
111 individual members of the that police service? 2 A: Yes, that were police officers. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: My Friend Mr. Millar has just, as he 7 often does, whispered something in my ear -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No comment. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 11 Q: In an entirely professional manner I 12 should clarify. And I -- I want to clarify that in 1995 13 the police service that had primary jurisdiction of the 14 Kettle and Stony Point territory, was that properly 15 called the Anishnaabek Police or was it properly called 16 the Kettle and Stony Point Police Service? 17 A: It was the police services and they - 18 - later on they -- the name changed to Anishnaabek 19 Police. 20 Q: All right. All right, fair enough. 21 So let's back up then, sir, you indicated 22 that you spoke to individual officers within that police 23 service and you did so I gather during the period of the 24 4th to the 6th or sometime after that period? 25 A: Before and after.
121 Q: Before and after, but not during? 2 A: I know I spoke to -- because one (1) 3 of them, one (1) of the police officers is one of my -- 4 he's a relative of -- he's my first cousin, Wallace 5 Kuzinowski (phonetic) and I talked to him about it 6 briefly. 7 Q: And I'm just -- I'm trying to 8 establish the time frame that you did that. And as I 9 understand what you're -- 10 A: I -- I can't pinpoint any specific 11 day but I knew I was talking to him about when that was 12 happening. When they were in the built-up area of the -- 13 of the base there, and I may have spoken to them briefly 14 before that happened. 15 Q: Before the occupation of the Park? 16 Or before the occupation of the barracks? 17 A: No. Because it was only within a 18 couple of days that that happened. I -- I can't recall 19 if I really talked to him about it. 20 Q: Okay. All right. So just so that 21 I'm -- 22 A: I know, I know I was talking with 23 them. 24 Q: All right. But you can't assist us 25 as to whether you actually talked with these officers
131 during the Park occupation between the 4th and the 6th? 2 A: No. I'll say no to that, no. 3 Q: Thank you, all right. You told us 4 yesterday, sir, that no one would come out and try to 5 talk to us. And -- and I don't have the actual 6 transcript in front of me, sir. I'm going by my notes of 7 your evidence. And you made that comment when you were 8 expressing what formed the basis of some of the 9 frustration that led -- that in turn led to your actions 10 in the parking lot that night. 11 And I wanted to ask you a little bit about 12 your impression that no one would try to come out and 13 talk to us. I trust, sir, what you were referring to is 14 the fact that no one was trying to reach out to the 15 occupiers in the Park to talk to them? 16 A: That's the way I took it, yes. 17 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And I also 18 trust, sir, that by no one you also included in that 19 category, the OPP? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. We've already heard 22 evidence to this effect and I anticipate that we're going 23 to hear further evidence on the point, about efforts made 24 by the OPP on September 4th, September 5th and September 25 the 6th, to actually open up a dialogue with the
141 occupiers. 2 And I trust, sir, based upon your evidence 3 yesterday that you were unaware of the efforts that were 4 made by the OPP to open up a dialogue with the occupiers 5 of the Park? 6 A: Yes. I -- like I mentioned I never 7 spent a lot of time there and I had no idea what took 8 place prior to my getting there. And I -- I kind of 9 stayed away from the area just drove by and watched and 10 that's as far as I really went up until the day that that 11 happened. 12 Q: I understand, sir. 13 A: I had no idea that they were trying 14 to communicate. Only through TV -- you watch the TV and 15 you watch what's going on and you begin to wonder what is 16 -- what is taking place, why is it happening and what is 17 going to happen. 18 I mean that's -- I didn't go there, you 19 know, a lot. I -- I felt that there was, like I 20 mentioned earlier when an individual feels that they want 21 to be heard, then that's their right to do that. I have 22 no -- no right myself to tell anyone that they can't 23 speak or do anything. If I feel -- I could only mention 24 but that's -- that's all I can do. 25 Q: I understand, sir. You mentioned
151 that on September the 6th during the two (2) occasions 2 when you went down to the Park, that you did have a 3 chance to speak with some of the occupiers, albeit 4 briefly, but you did have a chance to speak with a number 5 of the occupiers, do I have evidence correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I trust, sir, that during your 8 contact with those individuals on September the 6th, at 9 no point did they say to you that they wanted to speak 10 with a member of the OPP? 11 A: No, I never heard that conversation. 12 Q: Or that they even wanted to -- to 13 reach out and speak with the police? The OPP in 14 particular? 15 A: No. I guess I -- my purpose of going 16 there was to let them know that was -- what was going 17 outside of the area that they -- they couldn't see 18 because some of them -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- had never left that area. Maybe 21 they were afraid they would be arrested for some reason 22 or another so they -- I guess they basically stayed 23 inside of that area. I was only informing them what was 24 going on outside. 25 Q: I understand. I simply wanted to
161 clarify that during the course of your discussions with 2 them, that at no point did any of the occupiers indicate 3 that they wanted to speak with the police? The OPP 4 rather. 5 A: Not to my knowledge, no. 6 Q: And I trust also, sir, that at no 7 point did any of those same individuals with whom you had 8 contact, at no point did they say to you, I want to speak 9 with someone from the Kettle and Stony Point Police 10 Service? 11 A: No. Not that I can recall. 12 Q: No. 13 A: If they would have mentioned that, 14 then I would have went and talked to them. I assumed 15 that because what was taking place, that our -- our 16 Police Service down there might have been notified of 17 what the intention was going to be. That's what I -- I 18 took it. I mean because they're always notified of other 19 things and why not. 20 Maybe they weren't made -- they weren't, I 21 -- I don't know that. I know later they were involved in 22 it, but later was too late. 23 Q: Wells as I -- I indicated, sir, I 24 anticipate that your questions in that regard will be 25 answered later on during this Inquiry.
171 A: Yes. 2 Q: You were asked some questions 3 yesterday, sir, about your observation as to a collection 4 of -- of rocks or other materials by the fence line. The 5 fence line that separated the Park from the area that we 6 refer to as the sandy parking lot. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 9 that indeed, you did see the piling up of what looked 10 like rocks along the fence line when you were down there, 11 on September the 6th. 12 And it may be that you don't recall that, 13 and I'm going to assist you in that regard if that's the 14 case, but first of all I'm going to suggest to you that, 15 indeed, you did see something to that effect. 16 A: I may have, yes, that was years ago. 17 But I -- like I mentioned before, I wasn't really looking 18 for a pile of rocks, I was looking just for my sister and 19 brother. 20 Q: You had your priorities right. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I may have seen then but I -- 24 Q: Just to -- 25 A: -- my mind's not clear on that.
181 Q: That's fine, sir, and what I want to 2 do, because you've given a number of statements to the 3 SIU over the years, I want to take you to those 4 statements just so that we can clarify the point. 5 You have a couple of binders in front of 6 you, sir. I'm going to ask you if you can open up the 7 binder and look at Tab 28. It's in Volume II, I'm 8 advised. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And I'm advised that it's Inquiry 13 Document Number 1005689. And if you look, sir, I 14 understand that this is a transcript of an interview that 15 you had with the SIU on September the 2nd, 1997. You'll 16 see the date right at the top of Page 1. 17 A: What was that number? Could you 18 repeat it? 19 Q: The date is September the 2nd, 1997. 20 A: Yes, you're on page -- the first 21 page? 22 Q: I am, sir. And if you look at the 23 bottom of that first page you'll see that the officer 24 appears to have given you a copy of transcripts of your 25 two (2) previous interviews with the SIU, one dated
191 September the 7th, 1995 and one dated July the 18th, 2 1996. Do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And it would appear, sir, that you 5 were given an opportunity to read those transcripts and 6 to verify that they accurately reflected what you wanted 7 to tell the police on those occasions? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And so you recall then, I gather, 10 sir, reading those statements and agreeing as to the 11 correctness and accuracy of their contents? 12 A: Yes, I probably did. 13 Q: Actually, if you turn the page and 14 you look at top at Page 2, you'll see indeed that that 15 is what you did. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Good, all right. So, I'm now going 18 to ask you to flip to Tab 21, which I suspect is in the 19 other Volume. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No? In the 22 same Volume, I'm told. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 25 Q: And for the record, that's Document
201 Number 1002272. And you'll see, sir, this is a 2 transcript of your interview of July the 18th, 1996. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. If I could ask you, sir, 5 to turn to Page 10 of that interview transcript. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And about half way down the page, 10 sir, you'll see that officer Kennedy asked you the 11 following question: 12 "Did you know First Nations people that 13 you saw that night had firearms?" 14 And your answer was as follows: 15 "No, I did not see anyone with any -- 16 any sort of firearm except for sticks 17 and looked like they were piling up 18 rocks or something along the fence or 19 something. I don't know what they were 20 piling up. I didn't go -- as like as I 21 mentioned, I just -- I stayed along the 22 fence line there." 23 I trust, sir, then that that assists in 24 refreshing your memory that you saw something, at least, 25 being piled up along the fence line which --
211 A: Yes. One (1) of the people there 2 with my brother Stacey, he was piling up firewood. And 3 like I mentioned earlier they had two (2) fires in there. 4 I didn't really look at exactly what he 5 was doing. I know he had some firewood piled up there 6 and there was another pile of stuff that was kind of -- 7 it wasn't really lit up in there. 8 Q: I understand. 9 A: It might have been a pile of rocks, 10 it might have been sticks there beside it but I wasn't 11 really paying attention to what he -- there was. 12 There was a pile of something but -- like 13 I said I'm not exactly sure what it was. I said in my 14 statement it might have been stones, sticks, I'm not 15 exactly sure. 16 Q: I understand, sir. I'm also, sir, 17 and it -- it's again the same lines. You very fairly 18 acknowledged yesterday that having regard to the passage 19 of time, your recollection of some of the details is 20 understandably, not perfect. 21 And I wanted to also suggest to you that 22 when you went back to the Park, on that second occasion, 23 some time between ten and eleven o'clock at night I think 24 you told us was the time. 25 I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that at
221 that time you actually saw occupiers in the sandy parking 2 lot, outside of the Park. 3 A: On my way there? 4 Q: Once you got there. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: Are you agreeing that that's the 7 case? What I can do, sir, again I have two (2) areas 8 that I can take you to in the materials that might assist 9 you in refreshing your memory. And I want to be fair to 10 you in that regard. 11 A: When I got there, I'm trying to 12 recall, this was years ago, my brother was down on the 13 north end of that Park gathering firewood and I told him 14 be careful. 15 And I looked around, and I -- my mind's 16 not really clear on -- like there wasn't a lot --a lot of 17 movement in the area of the sandy parking lot, because it 18 was -- it was kind of -- it was dark in that area and you 19 could see the fire up below the hill as you're coming 20 along the beach, you could see the fire glowing. 21 And you could see people moving, the 22 shadows, it was hard to tell if they were outside of that 23 fence or inside of that fence at -- where I was standing 24 below the hill. We could just see the shadows moving. 25 Q: Okay. I'm going to take you to two
231 (2) documents that might assist you in this regard. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you still have Tab 21 open there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. I would like to take you 6 to page 2 and page 3 of that document. You'll see, sir, 7 at the bottom of page 2, you're referring to your brother 8 Jeremiah accompanying you as you're walking along the 9 beach. So we know that what you're about to speak of is 10 your second trip to the Park. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And if you turn to the next page, if 13 you count down about ten (10) lines from the top, it 14 says: 15 "And my concern was the safety of the 16 people that were there around that Park 17 -- in that Park wherever they were. I 18 didn't know until I got there and there 19 was -- there was some people walking 20 around outside the area of the -- of 21 the Park. On the area of which this 22 took place outside the Park." 23 Now I acknowledge that later on you also 24 refer to seeing people down at the beach. 25 A: Yes, it was my brother.
241 Q: And -- and I don't take issue with 2 that but I trust, sir, that when you were speaking of 3 'the area of which this took place' the only thing we've 4 heard of of any significance that took place -- took 5 place in that sandy parking lot. Would you agree with 6 that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Does this assist you then, 9 sir, in recalling that when you got there between 10:00 10 and 11:00, there were actually occupiers in the sandy 11 parking lot? 12 A: There may have been. I'm still not 13 really clear, yeah, I made that statement, I'm still not 14 really clear about that one (1). I did actually reach 15 that area. 16 Q: I trust, sir, you'd agree with me 17 that your recollection of the events would have been 18 fresher in your mind in July of 1996, than they are 19 today? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Just by virtue of the passing of 22 time. And -- and no doubt, sir, you were telling the 23 truth to the police when you -- you indicated that to 24 them? 25 A: Just -- I'm thinking about when I got
251 there. I -- obviously I can't really remember that they 2 were walking around outside that Park, yet I had 3 mentioned it in -- in a statement to the police. 4 Q: Okay. Let me take you to another 5 passage that again might assist you. And if you could 6 turn, sir, to Tab 32 of the materials in front of you. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I understand, sir, that you were 11 called to testify at the trial of Warren George. Is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I understand, sir, that you gave 15 evidence in that regard on December the 15th, 1997? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And if you look at Tab 32, we have a 18 transcription of your evidence, and that for the record, 19 is Document Number 1004977. And if I could take you, 20 sir, to Page 85 of the transcript. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And again, just so that you know to 25 which trip you are referring, if you look back at Page 84
261 around Line 15, you'll see that you are referencing your 2 walking along the beach with your brother Jeremiah. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. So, if we turn to Page 85, 5 you're talking about coming along the beach and at the 6 top of the page, you indicated to the Court: 7 "It looked like they were trying to 8 build a fire or something there, so I 9 told them, I says, things don't look 10 good. I says, there's a lot of police 11 up over there. I don't know what the 12 heck's going to go -- I don't know what 13 the heck's" -- 14 I guess it's "going on", 15 "I told them to be careful. And then I 16 walked up along the road. There's a 17 little roadway and that goes up onto 18 the little parking lot there." 19 Then you go on and you talk about speaking 20 to some of the people at the fence line and then you go 21 on, at the bottom of the page and you indicate: 22 "I say, I'll go out on the road" 23 And I'm at about Line 28, Mr. George, just 24 so you can follow me, 25 "I say I'll go out on the road and see
271 what's going on and let you know if it 2 is safe or not. So there was a couple 3 of other guys that were walking around 4 outside the fence in the parking lot 5 area." 6 If you turn the page, you go on: 7 "They were walking around right at the 8 corner where it turns and heads west 9 away from the Park area. 10 Q: And this is on Parkway Drive? 11 A: Yeah, they were just walking around 12 outside in that parking lot area." 13 Now, again sir, I trust because of the 14 timing of this particular evidence, it was given in 15 December of 1997, closer to the events in question, I 16 trust that your memory would have been better at that 17 point -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- as to the events? All right. So 20 you'd agree with me, sir, that in all likelihood, you 21 indeed saw some of the occupiers in that sandy parking 22 lot when you arrive there at your second trip? 23 A: It may have been, yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: If I had made that statement then
281 that's probably the way it was but to this date I -- I 2 can't -- my mind's kind of -- kind of blank that way. 3 Q: I understand, sir. Mr. George, thank 4 you very much for your time and for your candour. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Mr. Downard...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Morning, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 17 Q: Good morning, sir, my name's Peter 18 Downard and I appear for the former Ontario Premier Mike 19 Harris. And I would just like to ask you a -- a few 20 questions mainly involving your experience as a 21 councillor of the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 22 And first of all I -- I take it that in 23 1995 the Kettle and Stony Point Band sought to represent 24 the interests of all members of the Band? 25 A: Yes.
291 Q: And that would include people who 2 resided at Kettle Point at the time? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And people who resided at the Stony 5 Point lands at the time? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And would that also include people 8 who lived off the Kettle Point reservation and -- and 9 away from the Stony Point lands? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you recall roughly how many 12 members of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band there were in 13 1995, in that period? 14 A: No, I can't -- exact numbers, no. 15 Q: Oh I would -- it's not a quiz. Do 16 you have any general recollection of a -- of a rough 17 estimate of about how many members there were? 18 A: Three thousand (3000). Off and on 19 the reserve. 20 Q: And I -- I take it that there would 21 be a Band list identifying -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- identifying the members of the 24 Band? 25 A: Yes.
301 Q: And in 1995 as I understand it that 2 the chief and the council were elected by those members 3 of the Band, based on the list, who chose to exercise 4 their right to vote? 5 A: Yes. I -- I said three thousand 6 (3000), that would be tops. It's probably less than 7 that. 8 Q: But the chief and council in 1995 9 were elected by those of the members who decided to vote? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And in 1995 how -- how often were 12 elections held? 13 A: Every second year. 14 Q: And would there be campaigning in 15 these elections? 16 A: Yes, some did campaign, others 17 didn't. 18 Q: And once the election was held and 19 the chief and council of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band 20 had been elected, I take it it's fair to say that they 21 had a democratic mandate from the people who voted for 22 them to do their jobs? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I take it that in carrying out 25 that mandate, the Kettle and Stoney Point chief and
311 council while you were involved dealt with a -- a wide 2 variety of issues of -- of concern to its membership of 3 First Nations people? 4 A: There were a number of issues, yes. 5 Q: A wide variety of issues? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I take it that as -- as far as 8 you have observed in your experience with the council, 9 that in carrying out those tasks, the -- the Kettle and 10 Stoney Point Band chief and council, acted with the 11 intention of advancing the interests of all the members 12 of the Band, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, I take it that in the -- the 15 course of the work of the Band chief and council while 16 you were involved, the chief and council developed a good 17 deal of knowledge about concerns and issues affecting 18 First Nations people in the Stoney Point and Kettle Point 19 area? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And so would you agree that, as a 22 result of that, if -- if someone wanted information about 23 what the issues and concerns of First Nations people in 24 the area were, it would be reasonable for them to look to 25 the -- the Band Chief and Council for that information?
321 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I understand also, that in 1995, 3 there was a -- a Band administrator named Elizabeth 4 Thunder. Did you know her in 1995? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how long had she been the Band 7 administrator at that time? Do you recall? 8 A: A year or two before I became one of 9 the Council. 10 Q: So that would be a year or two (2) 11 before 1992? 12 A: Yeah. It was around there. I'm not 13 exactly sure. 14 Q: Sure. And was she from the local 15 community? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And from your perspective as a 18 Councillor, while -- while you were on the Council, what 19 were her functions, generally speaking, as a Band 20 administrator? 21 A: Her functions were wide. They were 22 taking care of many of the areas that we had to deal 23 with. There was a wide area that she had to take care 24 was -- that she was involved in negotiations of the 25 return of the lands from -- at Stony Point, health,
331 education. She had a wide variety of operations she had 2 to deal with. 3 Q: She was a full-time employee? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I -- I don't know about full time. 7 That's kind of a tricky word to use when you're employed. 8 So she was employed, I'll put it that way. 9 Q: But in any event, she was extensively 10 engaged in -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- working for the Band? Right? 13 That's correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. So I take it that you 16 would agree that as well, if someone in 1995 wanted 17 information about positions of the Kettle and Stoney 18 Point Band and Council on particular issues, it would be 19 helpful and reasonable for them to contact Ms. Thunder as 20 the Band administrator? 21 A: Yes, there was other means of 22 obtaining information if you needed them. 23 Q: Yes, but she would be one reasonable 24 source, right? 25 A: Yes.
341 Q: And from time to time she might be 2 authorized to inform people about the Band's position on 3 issues? 4 A: She had a certain position, yes. 5 Q: A "certain position"? 6 A: Yeah, to -- like -- she could -- her 7 responsibilities were not full that she had full 8 authority to make decisions on her own. These -- part of 9 these came from direction of the chief and the Council. 10 Q: Okay. And did she have authority to 11 communicate with the public about matters of concern to 12 the Band? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. All right. Now, as I 15 understand it, one of the things that the Band did quite 16 obviously, on behalf of its Members, during the 1995 17 time, was to deal with land claims, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And in particular in 1995 there was a 20 land claim regarding the beaches at Kettle point, that 21 had been in negotiation with the federal government for 22 some time? 23 A: Yes, the whole area in -- down -- 24 down there was -- they were looking at that, yes. 25 Q: And, in fact, there was a lawsuit
351 commenced over that in, I believe, May of 1995. Does 2 that accord with your recollection? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, in 5 1995 the Kettle and Stoney Point Band employed a land 6 claims researcher named Victor Gilowich (phonetic)? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you knew of him in 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: How long had he been working with the 11 band? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Two (2) maybe three (3) years. I'm 16 not exactly sure on approximate time that he did his 17 investigations into the land claim. 18 Q: Okay. But that's your -- your -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- rough estimate? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was he from the local community? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. And from your perspective 25 as a councillor in 1995, what was Mr. Gilowich doing?
361 A: It's his job was to research and 2 identify information that was -- would be important to -- 3 the research and return of these lands down there at 4 Stony Point, along with other -- any information that he 5 gathered during his -- his -- the course that he was 6 employed by the Band. 7 Q: So -- so that would often be 8 historical information? 9 A: Yes, it was not only to deal with the 10 lands down there. There was other lands that we had 11 questioned and he was researching a wide area of -- 12 trying to update information for us. 13 Q: So -- so he was reviewing a -- a wide 14 area of historical questions? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I -- I take it then that if 17 someone wanted information about the Band's position or 18 the state of its knowledge about land claims and that a - 19 - a good person to speak at the time would have been Mr. 20 Gilowich right? 21 A: Yes, he -- he knew quite a bit about 22 the research that he was obtaining for us. 23 Q: And at the time he would probably be 24 the person with the best information on those subjects, 25 right?
371 A: He was gathering it, yes. And he was 2 putting information together as more -- as he went 3 along. 4 Q: So he was probably the best source of 5 information? 6 A: Yes. I wouldn't say the best. There 7 was different areas, but he was -- that was his position 8 to research for us. 9 Q: It was -- it was certainly something 10 that -- that as far as you could perceive, he developed a 11 good deal of expertise? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. All right. Now I -- I want to 14 turn to the -- the matter of burial grounds in the Park. 15 And the Inquiry has heard evidence, from a number of 16 Stony Point people, describing information that had been 17 given to them by Elders and others, prior to September of 18 1995, regarding the existence of burial grounds in the 19 Park. 20 And it's a -- it's a matter of public 21 record, at least to the extent that one can regard print 22 media as public record, that the Band said that it did 23 not know about burial grounds in the Park at the time. 24 And just to assist with that, I'd refer to 25 an article ...
381 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And just for the assistance of 5 counsel, this is Document 1009635, and I just want to 6 refer to a couple of these articles by way of background 7 then I'll be asking you a question about them. Oh, if 8 you'd like to take a moment to -- to read the article as 9 well, please take as long you'd like. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And I'm just going to be referring to 14 the article at the top part of the page, sir. And 15 perhaps you could just let me know when you're finished. 16 And if you could verbalize your answer, please, sir. 17 If you could speak your answer because of 18 the -- the transcript that's being taken. A nod 19 doesn't -- 20 A: You'll have to repeat that question 21 there. 22 Q: Sure. I just wanted you to tell me 23 when you were finished reading the article in the top 24 half of the page? 25 A: Yes, I'm done.
391 Q: Thank you. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Mr. Commissioner, 3 I think, in fairness to the witness, he should be given 4 the time and permitted, indeed encouraged, to read the 5 entire article rather than simply the part My Friend 6 wishes to refer to. 7 MR. PETER DOWNARD: That's not -- I 8 haven't intended to refer the witness to only part of the 9 article. The only article I'm referring to is the 10 article that is at the top half of the page. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 12 MR. PETER DOWNARD: And I don't -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The bottom 14 half doesn't refer to the same -- 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: No. It's a carry 16 over from another story. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 18 okay, Mr. Henderson? The top part of the page is, I 19 think, the whole article. I think. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 24 Q: Have you seen this article before, 25 sir?
401 A: Yes. I may have read it the News. 2 Q: And then if -- if you had read it in 3 the news you probably would have read it on or about the 4 day of its publication which was the 7th September, 1995? 5 A: I think I might have been in custody 6 at that time and I never had access to newspapers. 7 Q: Sure. Okay. Now, you'll see that in 8 the -- the first two (2) paragraphs of the article, and 9 I'm just going to direct you to this report of this 10 statement and then another one and then I'll ask -- I'll 11 be getting to a question. This is just background. 12 But you'll see that it says: 13 "There's some speculation that natives 14 occupying Ipperwash Provincial Park are 15 there because a sacred burial ground is 16 on the land. But Victor Gilowich land 17 claims researcher for the Kettle and 18 Stoney Point Band says he can find no 19 evidence of a burial ground at the 20 site." 21 Unquote. And then there's one more 22 article I want to show you as well, sir. And this, for 23 the record, is document 1000671. And, it's an article 24 from the Windsor Star, dated December 7, 1995, and I 25 apologize for the small print; that's what I got when I
411 pressed print on the computer. 2 But perhaps if you could take a minute to 3 read that article. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we put 5 this on the screen? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I can put this on the 7 screen, yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because the 9 print is just too fine to read, I think. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, one of 14 the things we could do is -- is simply take the copy of 15 the article that Mr. George has and have it blown up on 16 the photocopier because it is very difficult to read. 17 And it's difficult to read, even on the screen. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The article 19 on the screen is a little easier to read than the hard 20 copy. Can you read it, Mr. George, either on the screen 21 or in a hard copy? Pretty hard to read but I think it's 22 easier on the screen? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's easier on the 24 screen. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I can -- well perhaps,
421 Mr. George, if you would let -- if you would like to read 2 it on the screen, just let me know and I can move the -- 3 move the article when you're done. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, I could read it here. 5 Just some of the words are -- letters are close together. 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Commissioner, I only 7 intend to take the witness to a very small portion of the 8 article in the third column, but again, given My Friend's 9 concerns, I -- I want the witness to read it all. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 Millar...? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 16 sorry to interrupt. I think we have a better copy and 17 it'll be clearer on the screen. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 19 thank you very much. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's Inquiry 24 Document 2001764 and I'd like to thank Ms. Jones for 25 pointing that out.
431 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, thanks. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 9 Q: Sir, have you now read the document? 10 A: Yes, and it wasn't very clear on the 11 first part. But I went through most of it, yes. 12 Q: Now, sir, if you look at the first 13 column in the -- the document in the second paragraph, 14 you'll see there's a reference to Elizabeth Thunder, the 15 Band administrator for the Kettle and Stoney Point -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- Band. All right. And then if you 18 can go over to the third column, at the top of the third 19 column there's -- there's reference to a person from the 20 Ministry of Natural Resources and I'm going to read -- 21 it's -- into the record the little segment here above the 22 sub-headline "Frayed Nerves". 23 It reads, and I quote: 24 "Daryl Smith, an Information Officer 25 with the Ministry of Natural Resources
441 called the occupation illegal. He 2 noted the land is private property and 3 the occupiers are trespassing." 4 Paragraph: 5 "He said there is no land claim, quote, 6 'that we're aware of', unquote, on 7 Ipperwash Park." 8 Paragraph: 9 "An archeological study turned up no 10 evidence the land was ever a tribal 11 burial ground. That has been one of 12 the motives attributed to the occupiers 13 for taking over the Park. 14 Thunder confirms that there has been no 15 historical land claim on the Park and 16 she added that native Elders are 17 unaware of any burial grounds there." 18 So, this is a fairly long way around to 19 the questions. But, the question I have for you, sir, as 20 someone who was closely involved in Band governance at 21 the time, is whether you're aware of any explanation for 22 statements about Stony -- by Stony Point persons about a 23 burial ground existing in the Park and their knowing 24 about a burial ground in the Park, prior to 1995. 25 And, on the other hand, the apparent
451 statements of the Band administrator and land claims 2 researcher at the time, being so different. 3 In other words, on the one hand we've 4 heard a number of Stony Point people saying that before 5 1995 they had been informed by Elders and others that 6 there was a burial ground in the Park. 7 On the other hand, at the time -- I think 8 there's an objection. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 10 you've got to finish your question, don't you? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I have to wait until 12 after I've heard him anyway, go ahead. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm still 14 writing down your question, so... 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 17 Q: I was wondering whether as a matter 18 of fact, sir, given your experience at the time, as a 19 member of the Band Council, whether you are aware of any 20 facts which could explain this apparent difference -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, do you 22 want -- I'm sorry, are you finished? 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 25 Q: And I was just going to specify, the
461 differences between Stony Point persons saying that they 2 were informed prior to September of 1995 about a burial 3 ground in the Park and the Band administrator and the 4 Band claims researcher saying at the time in the context 5 of the press reports we've looked at, in September of 6 1995, that they were not aware of any burial ground in 7 the Park. 8 I'm just wondering whether, in your 9 experience, you have any facts that you're aware of that 10 could help us to understand why there was that 11 difference? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, are you 13 objecting to that question, Mr. Ross; and if so, on what 14 basis? 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, to be 16 facetious, I should ask him to repeat the question but I 17 wouldn't do that. But what I would do -- what I would do 18 is to draw to your attention, Mr. Commissioner, that when 19 I referred to Inquiry Document Number 1003921 and I was 20 getting into this section where it reads: 21 "But a week after George's death, 22 federal Indian Affairs Minister Ron 23 Irwin made a bombshell announcement 24 about the Park." 25 Irwin, that's the Minister, the guy who a
471 little above Liz Thunder, says: 2 "Irwin released papers that suggested 3 Indians were right and there indeed was 4 a Chippewa burial ground in the site." 5 Now the point is, that when I was 6 referring to these documents, Mr. Commissioner, very 7 correctly, you and Commission Counsel indicated that it's 8 a newspaper article and we cannot take it as fact -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And I just like to be 11 sure that we will be consistent with that approach where 12 we read another newspaper article. Thank you, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have a different 16 objection. The -- my objection is the question is, as I 17 understand it, there is a difference between what the 18 Stony Point -- as My Friend Mr. Downard said, the Stony 19 Point people and -- on -- as of September 7th, 1995 and 20 what was said by Ms. Thunder and how can -- do you have 21 any facts that explain the difference? 22 In my submission that's not a proper 23 question for this witness. The -- he can be asked what 24 he knows, what he did, he -- it's -- it's -- he can't 25 explain the Stony Point -- the people that we've heard of
481 from Stony Point have given their evidence and there's a 2 -- I -- I agree with My Friend, Mr. Ross that a newspaper 3 article is simply a newspaper article. 4 But apparently Ms. Thunder made these 5 comments and it's -- I don't know how this witness can 6 say well, why did the Stony Point people say these -- 7 this issue -- this, and why Ms. Thunder said that. 8 He just can't answer it. He can -- he can 9 answer questions as to what he knew, what he did, what he 10 observed, not what other people were thinking. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 12 yes, Mr. Downard, I think that makes sense. 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well I'll -- I'll 14 move on, Mr. Commissioner, I -- I -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- I could debate it 17 with My Friend, but I'm not going to. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 20 Q: You did tell us, sir, in your 21 previous evidence here, that you visited the -- the 22 occupied land quite a number of times from 1993 through 23 1995? 24 A: A number, yes. Not -- not a real lot 25 just -- I went there and I was just -- now and then.
491 Q: You -- you camped out in 1993, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you visited your sister there, 4 particularly in 1995? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you did testify those were 7 relatively brief visits? 8 A: Not a lot. No I would just go there 9 shortly to see how she was and left. 10 Q: And you testified that there other 11 councillors who visited the Stony Point lands and the 12 occupiers there from time to time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And during the period of 1993 to 1995 15 there were a number of meetings and contacts and 16 discussions between members of the Kettle and Stoney 17 Point Band council, and the occupiers? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And to your knowledge, as of 20 September of 1995, had the people occupying the Stony 21 Point land, at that time, ever come to the Kettle and 22 Stoney Point chief and council and ask for assistance in 23 protecting a burial ground in the Provincial Park land? 24 Do you recall that ever happening? 25 A: No, I'm not aware of that, no. There
501 may have been but I was -- I'm not aware. I didn't have 2 a lot of dealings what was going on at that time -- our 3 chief at the -- at that present time may have a better 4 answer than I. 5 Q: Sure, maybe we'll hear in this 6 Inquiry from Ms. Thunder or Mr. Gilowich? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And we expect to hear from Mr. 9 Bressette as well, the chief. Now, on Monday, you spoke 10 about attending the army camp in 1993 and Maynard T. 11 George refused to let you onto the land, do you recall 12 that? 13 A: I'm not exactly sure what year it 14 was. It was when they first moved onto the land in the 15 range area, whatever year that was. Yes, he denied me 16 access. 17 Q: Okay. And when this happened he said 18 that you needed a Stony Point card to enter the land 19 there and you just shook your head and walked away? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And why did you shake your head? 22 A: I was -- thought it was useless 23 talking to that person at that time because I felt he 24 never really understood why he was there and the real 25 purpose of why he was there and his whole intentions. He
511 was kind of -- I -- I -- just couldn't understand him and 2 a lot of people couldn't. 3 Q: What was this thing called a Stony 4 Point card? 5 A: I have no idea. It was what he 6 mentioned to me and I just -- that's why I just shook my 7 head and walked away. 8 Q: Okay. And we have heard evidence 9 about some First Nations people with historical ties to 10 the Stony Point lands considering Stony Point people to 11 be a separate Band from the Kettle and Stoney Point Band. 12 Are you aware of -- of those sorts of 13 views being -- existing in the area? 14 A: There was all kinds of discussions 15 and talks about separation and a lot of them came from 16 him. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: And I told him he should be careful 19 on a word -- on the words he chooses, between people 20 'cause some are going to disagree with him. And I just - 21 - I told him, don't be using that kind of word. 22 Q: Okay. Now, next question you may not 23 know about, but as someone who was involved in governance 24 in the Kettle and Stoney Point Band in the 1995 period, 25 were you aware of the extent to which a separate Band,
521 calling itself the Stony Point Band, had been organized? 2 Whether it had any established governing 3 structure or established membership, and so on? 4 A: I was not involved in discussions 5 from the ones who were in their talks. There was all 6 kind of rumours and stuff like that, but I -- I didn't 7 really take to rumours and, yes, there was -- there was - 8 - I'll be honest that there was talks and that word came 9 -- came about and I -- I couldn't -- I didn't want to see 10 that. I didn't want to hear that. 11 Q: So that's not -- that's not something 12 you were closely involved in? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Now, Monday you said that you 15 discouraged your sister from moving onto the -- the Army 16 camp. Do you recall that? 17 A: I talked to her about it and -- 18 before she moved on -- into the barracks area. I told -- 19 I let her know, you know, to be careful and if she wanted 20 to do that, then I couldn't stop her. 21 I told her it wasn't a good idea, but I 22 told her if she wanted to I can't stop her and be 23 careful. 24 Q: And why did you think it was not a 25 good idea?
531 A: I just felt tense about -- about her, 2 because she was kind of living on her own and her -- her 3 son, he was just at a young age then and she was going 4 through an experience in her life that I don't think she 5 really understood, so I was kind of trying to guide her 6 but I couldn't stop her. 7 You asked -- I think you're referring to 8 is -- you're trying to tell me that it was not a safe 9 place? If I didn't feel it was a safe place, I wouldn't 10 -- I wouldn't have let her go in there. I would stopped 11 her directly, but I felt it was safe for her to go in 12 there, so. 13 Q: I wasn't trying to tell you anything. 14 I was just trying to find out -- 15 A: Well, I -- 16 Q: -- what your reasoning was -- 17 A: Sorry, that's the impression I 18 received from you. 19 Q: People get that impression from 20 lawyers, sometimes. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I don't know where they get it. 23 That's a lame attempt at humour. 24 A: I'm -- 25 Q: All right. And -- and as I
541 understand it, as of July of 1995, Chief Tom Bressette 2 had -- had publicly stated that the Kettle and Stoney 3 Point Band did not support the occupiers to the Stony 4 Point lands. Is that your recollection? 5 A: That was his words, yes. That was... 6 Q: And, at the August 1 meeting which -- 7 which you described of the Band Council and -- and the 8 public, Chief Bressette indicated at that meeting that 9 he'd been working with Carl George. 10 Do you recall that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And Carl George said at that meeting 13 that he had had difficulties with the Stony Point people, 14 the people in occupation of the lands, because he had 15 been working with Chief Bressette. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: I wasn't part of -- a lot of the 18 meetings that the Chief and Carl had together. They -- 19 sometimes he came and approached the council and had some 20 meeting with the chief and council but not all the time, 21 no. 22 Q: But -- but do you -- what I'm 23 suggesting is that -- 24 A: Yes, I recall some of the times that 25 Carl met with the chief.
551 Q: -- yes, so -- so you recall that -- 2 that Carl expressed concern that he was being criticized 3 by some Stony Point occupiers for working with Chief 4 Bressette? 5 A: I don't recall it but I -- I know he 6 was kind of -- I'm trying to think of the word now. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Well, sir, -- well, sir, Exhibit P-43 11 in the Inquiry is a copy of the -- the meeting notes, a 12 transcript of the discussion that Mr. Millar reviewed 13 with you on Monday, which is also Document 6000354. 14 And you'll see, if you look at -- at page 15 17 of the minutes, there are some words attributed to 16 Carl George, at about the middle of the page, as follows. 17 Do you see that, sir? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And, I propose to simply read 20 the paragraph into the record. He is quoted as saying, 21 and I quote: 22 "I would like to speak on this paper 23 here. Three (3) years ago we started 24 talking about this here. A lot of 25 people don't like me right now. But I
561 push for this because I thought 2 everyone should be treated fairly. 3 There was a lack of communication. The 4 only thing we were trying to do was to 5 get people to pull together. With this 6 paper here I had a few friends, or I 7 thought I had, but they are against me 8 now. But I don't know what else to do. 9 I work with Tom and I'm hated for that 10 -- called a traitor. I know I've made 11 a lot of mistakes but I'm man enough to 12 admit them. I hope we can try to pull 13 together. I feel sorry for the people 14 of Stony Point but I'm not wanted there 15 anymore. People are coming in from 16 other reserves and from the States. 17 It was suggested that the council go 18 there and exert their authority. But 19 everyone has to be behind them. 20 Everyone on this reserve. We have to 21 get something resolved here and fairly 22 fast. This has gone on long enough. I 23 lost a brother over this, it's not 24 easy." 25 Unquote. Now, sir, does that assist you or
571 refresh your memory as to Carl George expressing concerns 2 that he was being criticized by people among the Stony 3 Point occupiers for working with Chief Bressette, during 4 this time frame? 5 A: That was true, I guess. 6 Q: Well is that your recollection of 7 what was going on at the time? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes? Thank you. And Mr. Millar 10 asked you about the -- the letter, stating certain 11 principles, upon which the -- the Kettle Point and -- 12 Kettle and Stoney Point Band people and the Stony Point 13 occupiers could hopefully move forward in dealing with -- 14 with the issues that -- that concern them. A letter that 15 was produced as a result of this meeting. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And, as I understand it, you were not 19 involved in the attempt to deliver that letter to the 20 Stony Point occupiers, right? 21 A: No, I was not. 22 Q: But I -- I take it though that you -- 23 you were informed that Chief Bressette attempted to 24 deliver that letter to the occupiers and they would not 25 accept it, right?
581 A: I don't know what took place down 2 there, discussions that anyone had. I just -- the word 3 that came back was there was a lack of communication and 4 that's all I understand. 5 Q: And do you recall that after that 6 lack of communication, Chief Bressette said publicly that 7 he would not approach the Stony Point occupiers again? 8 A: I don't recall that, no. 9 Q: Okay, well we'll take that up with 10 Chief Bressette when he arrives. Did you -- did you have 11 any understanding as to why there was this lack of 12 communication when the Chief sought to deliver this 13 letter? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Now, I'd like to ask you 16 a little bit about the local town governance, the local 17 Mayor and municipal Council. 18 And -- and I take it that the -- well, 19 first of all, what I would like to know is whether the 20 Kettle and Stoney Point Band and the local town 21 governance ever engaged in meetings or communications 22 about the occupation of the former Army camp lands, to 23 your knowledge. 24 A: No, I don't -- if there was, then 25 there may have been, but I might have not of -- I don't
591 recall them. I know that I attended quite a few of the 2 meetings and there was not no -- like I mentioned in my - 3 - it may have been short meetings. 4 Q: But -- but you're -- 5 A: I can't recall. 6 Q: But you're not aware of any 7 communications between the two (2) governing parties -- 8 A: No, no. 9 Q: -- about the issue? 10 A: No. There was concern. I mean there 11 might have been private discussions between the Chief and 12 -- or governments outside of the Kettle Point but, no ... 13 Q: Right but we -- we can only be 14 assisted by what you recall and what you observed. 15 A: Yes, the Chief had a lot more 16 responsibility than others. 17 Q: Sure. Now, you were also saying 18 that, I believe this morning, that -- or you indicated 19 this morning that at the -- the time of the occupation 20 you watched news about the occupation in early September 21 '95, on television? 22 A: Yes. It was mainly about -- not 23 directly involved about the occupation at the Park. It 24 was about the people that were inside the land down 25 there. There wasn't really lot about the occupation of
601 the Park in the media. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And then it just came just like that. 4 It happened so quick. I mean it... 5 Q: Sure. Do -- do you recall, though, 6 that once it happened on -- on the 4th, there was local 7 media coverage -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- that you saw? 10 A: Yes. I believe seeing bits and 11 pieces on TV. 12 Q: Okay. And, I believe you also 13 indicated this morning that -- that when you went down to 14 the Park, you wanted to inform the people there of what 15 was going on outside? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you sought -- you attempted to do 18 that, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, did it come to your attention, 21 because I don't intend to take you to all these 22 documents, but there are numerous -- there are numerous 23 contemporary media reports, and I'll just rhyme off some 24 document numbers for the record; 1000657, 1009634, 25 1000662, 1000661, and 1003834, indicating that -- and,
611 pardon me, and 1006677, indicating that, prior to the -- 2 the events of the night of September 6th, the government 3 could be seeking an injunction against the occupiers in 4 the Park. 5 Did you have any awareness when you 6 arrived at the Park on the evening of the 6th, that an 7 injunction could be sought against the occupiers; that 8 you -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- had gained from the media? 11 A: Yes, there was word that that could 12 possibly take place. 13 Q: And did you convey that to any of the 14 occupiers in the Park? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: Okay. All right. Thank you very 17 much, sir. Those are my questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much, Mr. Downard. 20 Mr. O'Marra, you said you had a couple of 21 questions? 22 MR. AL O'MARRA: I do, sir, thank you. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 25 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. My name is
621 Al O'Marra and I appear on behalf of the Chief Coroner. 2 We're assisting the Commission principally 3 on issues involving emergency medical services around the 4 events of September 6th of 1995. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. And I have just a -- a couple 7 of questions that I'd like to ask you, one around your 8 condition during the transport of you from the area of 9 the Park, to the hospital in Strathroy on September 6th, 10 the first area. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the second is any observations 13 you made about that Ministry of Natural Resources parking 14 lot on East Parkway Drive on September 6th. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Now, as you know, Mr. George, 17 one of the purposes of the Inquiry is to ensure that the 18 public record is correct and if there is any 19 misconception of events, that they be corrected. 20 A: That's what I'm aware of, sir. 21 Q: Yes. Now, as I understand it, Mr. 22 George, it had been reported in some publications about 23 these events that during the time that you were being 24 transported by ambulance, that you had no pulse, that 25 your heart had stopped. Had you heard this?
631 A: Bits and pieces, yes, and I read 2 through some of the documents that -- but I don't recall 3 too much of what happened on that ride there. 4 Q: No, you were in and out of 5 consciousness throughout that ride. 6 A: Yes, I guess I was. 7 Q: Okay. Now during the time that you 8 were in hospital, and indeed afterwards, did any doctor 9 say to you that your heart had stopped? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And certainly, if that had 12 been the case, that was something that you would want to 13 have known? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And I anticipate, Mr. George, 16 that you will hear in the course of the Inquiry that -- 17 that that was an error in the perception of an ambulance 18 attendant. 19 So perhaps that might provide you with 20 some consolation that, in fact, your pulse and your heart 21 did not stop. 22 A: I don't know that. 23 Q: Okay. Did you receive any 24 information that that was a misperception on the part of 25 a -- a volunteer ambulance attendant?
641 A: No. 2 Q: No, okay. Now the other area that I 3 wanted to ask you about was when you were in the area of 4 the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot, and I 5 understand you were in that area twice on September 6th, 6 one when you originally were going into the Park and then 7 secondly as you moved back up towards the parking lot 8 just before the conflict -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- the confrontation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: When you were in that -- that area, 13 on either of those occasions, did you see vehicles that 14 appeared to be ambulances or had markings of ambulances? 15 A: There was different vehicles in there 16 but I really -- didn't really see what type they were -- 17 Q: No -- 18 A: -- 'cause there was police officers 19 that were standing all around and they were to the left 20 of the -- to the left of us and to the right and there 21 was a number of vehicles but I -- I can't specifically 22 identify any of them. 23 There was a lot of cruisers. Other than 24 that, I -- I couldn't really tell what type of vehicles 25 they were.
651 Q: All right. 2 A: It had started to get kind of dark by 3 then. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. George. Those 5 are my questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 Mr. Henderson...? 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, 9 Commissioner. We have no questions at this time. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Millar? 12 13 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: I have one question. You were asked 15 by Ms. Jones in her examination about the list of weapons 16 that you owned back in 1995 and I take the weapons you 17 owned -- and I take it that list was the list from 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you referred to 22's and shotguns 20 and then -- and automatics and the question that I wanted 21 to know was the -- with respect to the automatic weapons, 22 did you own automatic weapons back in 1995? 23 A: Semi-automatic, yes. 24 Q: They were semi-automatic? 25 A: Yes.
661 Q: Not automatic. 2 A: No. 3 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 4 So I would like to on behalf of the Commission, thank Mr. 5 George for appearing and giving his evidence here at the 6 Public Inquiry. Thank you very much, Mr. George. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 8 say the same thing. Thank you very much for coming here 9 and giving us your evidence, Mr. George. You're finished 10 now, you're done. Thank you. 11 12 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would suggest 15 perhaps it would be an appropriate time for the morning 16 break. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 18 so. I think we'll take a fifteen (15) minute break right 19 now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 11:49 a.m. 25
671 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Right, good morning, 4 Mr. Commissioner. The Commission calls as the next 5 witness, then, Warren Anthony George. 6 7 WARREN ANTHONY GEORGE, JR., Sworn: 8 9 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 11 A: Good morning. 12 Q: Mr. George, you're presently a 13 resident of the Stony Point traditional territories, 14 formerly known as Ipperwash Army base, Army camp? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. And as I understand, you had 17 originally been a resident, or you had been raised and -- 18 and brought up in Kettle Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Your parents, can you just tell us a 21 bit about who they are? 22 A: Warren? My parents split up when 23 they were -- when I was about ten (10). My Mom lives in 24 Petrolia. 25 Q: Okay. Your mother is Kim Rude
681 (phonetic). Is that -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did I pronounce that properly? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And your father is Warren George, 6 Sr.? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And where -- where does 9 he reside? 10 A: Kettle Point. 11 Q: I understand that your birth date is 12 the 23rd of December, 1972? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So you will be thirty-two (32) years 15 of age here fairly shortly? 16 A: I think so, yes. 17 Q: And when you say "I think so", I get 18 the impression you're not sure. 19 A: I don't pay attention to dates too 20 often. 21 Q: All right. You were related to 22 Dudley George. Can you tell us how you were related to 23 the late Dudley George? 24 A: Dudley's father was my grandpa's 25 brother.
691 Q: And that would be Dan George Sr.? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So your grandfather is Dan George 4 Sr.? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And we understand that he was an 7 original or originally from the Stony Point reserve? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And your grandmother then would be 10 Melva George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And she had died just recently, as I 13 understand. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And she was originally from Kettle 16 Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And your mother's parents are Shirley 19 and George Morden (phonetic)? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. I understand that your 22 grandfather, George Morden, has passed away? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And your grandmother, where is she 25 now?
701 A: Living in Sarnia. 2 Q: Okay. You have brothers and sisters, 3 Mr. George. Could you tell us about -- about them, 4 please? 5 A: Harley, Leanne and Nola (phonetic). 6 Q: Okay. Are they younger than you, 7 older than you? 8 A: All of them are younger. 9 Q: Okay. And I understand that you're 10 currently employed, Mr. George. Could you tell us about 11 that? 12 A: Yeah, I'm in charge of a water and 13 sewer treatment system down at the Army camp. 14 Q: All right. And what does that entail 15 in terms of being in charge of that? 16 A: Making sure the water tower is full 17 of water and making sure the sewage treatment system is 18 running right, and greasing the motors here and there. 19 Q: All right. Do you have any duties 20 insofar as ensuring water quality? 21 A: Chlorinating and testing the water, 22 yes. 23 Q: Right. And we're certainly familiar, 24 since the Walkerton Inquiry that that's an important job. 25 A: Yes.
711 Q: I take it you have some training in 2 that. 3 A: Very little. Like you mean from a 4 school? 5 Q: Well, any kind of training. Somebody 6 had given you instructions in -- 7 A: Yeah, yeah -- 8 Q: -- terms of -- 9 A: -- I was given instructions, yeah. 10 Q: All right. That's -- and that's all 11 I'm getting at, Mr. George. You'd indicated to us that 12 your grandfather was Dan George Sr. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And we are told that he had passed 15 away in 1990? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that he was buried at the 18 traditional burial grounds at Stony Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You were at that funeral as I 21 understand, Mr. George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Prior to his passing, did you 24 have any discussions with your grandfather about the 25 Stony Point lands?
721 A: Yes. 2 Q: What did he tell you about that? 3 A: He told me that he'd -- that's where 4 he lived when he was a kid and he was removed -- removed 5 without a say. 6 Q: All right. Go ahead. 7 A: And that that was his land and he was 8 going to move back there some day. 9 Q: Did he ever indicate to you that that 10 land would be returned to him or -- or to the people from 11 that reserve at any point in time? 12 A: Did he know it was going to be 13 returned? 14 Q: Yeah. Did he ever mention to you 15 that it was to be returned or that he hoped it would be 16 returned? 17 A: Yes. He -- he hoped it would be 18 returned. 19 Q: And in terms of when you said that he 20 was -- he was removed from there, did he tell you about 21 the circumstances of how the land was taken and how he 22 was removed? 23 A: Some. 24 Q: What did he say about that? 25 A: The people who were living there were
731 more or less moved without their consent. 2 Q: And the people that were removed 3 without their consent, do you know whether they were 4 given an indication as to whether they would be entitled 5 to come back? 6 A: They were -- they were told they were 7 -- they would be able to come back when the war was over. 8 The army no longer needed it for -- to be used. 9 Q: Is this something that you 10 grandfather had related to you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did he ever express to you how he 13 felt about having been removed without his consent? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Can you tell us about that, Mr. 16 George. 17 A: He was upset and he didn't agree with 18 it. 19 Q: And as a result of his being upset 20 and not agreeing with it, I understand that he and others 21 had engaged in certain demonstrations and protest in 22 order to try to reclaim the land, is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and what can you tell us about 25 that insofar as your knowledge or your involvement in any
741 of those activities? 2 A: There was a demonstration on Highway 3 21 around 1990 where they were handing out information 4 pamphlets. 5 Q: Were -- were you part of that, Mr. 6 George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And can you tell us who was 9 there to your recollection? 10 A: Me and Melva my grandma, I believe 11 Marlin Simon was with me too and others, but I don't 12 recall any other names. 13 Q: All right. You would have been 14 fairly young at that point, seventeen (17) or so, sixteen 15 (16)? 16 A: Around there, yes. 17 Q: Okay. Had you been involved in any 18 other activities to -- along the same lines? 19 A: Around '93, we wrote some letters to 20 various politicians. 21 Q: Okay. Let -- let's just stick with 22 this 1990 demonstration. And you'd indicated that there 23 were pamphlets that were being passed out? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And who were these being given to?
751 A: Any motorists that would stop, stop 2 by and talk. 3 Q: And do you recall what it was that 4 the pamphlets that were being passed out to any motorists 5 that would stop by, do you know what it -- do you recall 6 what it was that it said. 7 A: Not exactly. But I believe it was to 8 try and put pressure on the government to return the 9 land. 10 Q: You confirmed with me a moment ago, 11 Mr. George, that you'd attended at your grandfather's 12 funeral in 1990. 13 Do you recall whether this demonstration 14 you've just told us about now was before that funeral or 15 after? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: All right. In terms of that funeral 18 is there anything that stands out in your mind? I mean 19 obviously it was your grandfather. 20 A: It was the first time and quite a few 21 years that somebody was buried -- buried in the cemetery 22 back then. 23 Q: Okay. And in attending at that 24 cemetery, that is the Stony Point Cemetery -- 25 A: Yes.
761 Q: -- did you make any observations about 2 -- about the condition that that cemetery was in? 3 A: It had -- appeared to be unkept. The 4 grass wasn't cut and the -- the headstones were damaged. 5 Q: When you say "damaged", what -- what 6 kind of damage did you observe? 7 A: Broken. 8 Q: Go ahead, anything else? 9 A: That's about all I can think of right 10 now. 11 Q: All right. During that period of 12 time in 1990 I understand that the cadet program was 13 still a regular part of the summer activities at the Army 14 camp. 15 A: During 1990? 16 Q: Yeah, in -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- 1990. And I understand as well, 19 Mr. George, that you were employed at the Army camp? 20 A: Yeah, for a little while. 21 Q: Well could you tell us about that? 22 A: I was a dishwasher for about three 23 (3) weeks when I was about fifteen (15). 24 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 25 A: I got fired after three (3) weeks, or
771 let go. 2 Q: And why were you fired or let go 3 after three (3) weeks, Mr. George? 4 A: For fraternizing with the cadets. 5 Q: All right. What does that mean or... 6 A: When we first started working there 7 and nothing was told to us. But after a week or two (2) 8 of working there we were told that we weren't to 9 fraternize with the cadets. 10 Q: And in terms of fraternize with 11 cadets, what did -- what did that mean to you or what 12 does that mean to you? 13 A: Talk to them, I guess, anything 14 associated with them. 15 Q: Okay. And so what had happened that 16 caused you to be fired or to be let go? 17 A: I was going out with one of the 18 cadets and I lent my jean jacket to her and she hid it 19 underneath her bed in her barracks there and they found 20 it. The army -- the army guys found it. 21 Q: Go ahead, and what happens? 22 A: And I was called to a building the 23 next day and they asked me if it was my coat and I said 24 yes. And I was let go. 25 Q: You had mentioned earlier, Mr.
781 George, that you were involved in other activities 2 insofar as trying to reclaim the Stony Point traditional 3 lands? 4 A: We wrote some letters to various 5 politicians around '93 or '4 or somewheres around there. 6 Q: Go ahead. 7 A: Just demanding the return of the Camp 8 Ipperwash to the Stony Point people. 9 Q: And when you say "various 10 politicians", who do you recall those being directed to? 11 A: Prime Minister, Minister of Indian 12 Affairs, various MPs. 13 Q: Okay. How about any provincial 14 politicians? Do you know whether or not any such letters 15 were directed to them? 16 A: Pardon? 17 Q: Do you recall whether or not any such 18 letters were directed to provincial politicians? 19 A: Could have been, but I don't recall 20 specifically. 21 Q: Okay. You don't recall today? 22 A: No. 23 Q: As a result of sending out these 24 various letters and the activities you've told us about 25 earlier, did it seem to you that anything was being done?
791 A: No. It didn't seem like it. 2 Q: Okay. And did those kinds of 3 activities continue, Mr. George? Were you -- did you 4 stay involved in -- in letter writing campaigns and other 5 kinds of protests or demonstrations at roadsides, passing 6 out pamphlets, that sort of thing? 7 A: Not that I recall. 8 Q: Now we understand from the various 9 testimony before this Commission of Inquiry that some 10 people began to move, or began to camp in the Army camp 11 around May -- in early May of 1993? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You were aware of that? Were you 14 part of the initial group, Mr. George, that moved into 15 the Army camp in May of 1993? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay, where were you living in May of 18 1993? 19 A: Kettle Point. 20 Q: There's an exhibit up on the screen 21 which has been marked as P-40 in these proceedings. Mr. 22 George, you also have a hard copy on the table in front 23 of you. 24 And I wonder if you would just with the 25 laser pointer that you have, simply confirm for us,
801 firstly, that is the Ipperwash Military Reserve or Stony 2 Point Traditional Reserve, is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I'm not sure how you -- how you refer 5 to it and perhaps I should ask you that. How is it 6 that -- 7 A: Aazhoodena? 8 Q: Okay. So that's Aazhoodena? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And in early 1993, people began to 11 camp there, began to move in. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Were you -- and were you part of the 14 initial group that went in and we understand that date to 15 be May the 6th of 1993? 16 A: No. It was shortly after. 17 Q: Okay. And do you recall when after - 18 - when shortly after? 19 A: A few days. Few days to a week. 20 Q: And so could you tell us what it is 21 that you did a few days to a week after that initial 22 group moved in and set up camp in the Aazhoodena? 23 A: We started setting up camp further -- 24 further down more towards the rifle range. 25 Q: Where did you -- where did you
811 initially enter and who did you come in with, Mr. George? 2 A: Glenn George and Marlin Simon, I 3 believe. 4 Q: Okay. And where was it that you 5 would have came in? If you could just use that laser 6 pointer in your hand and indicate on the map on the 7 screen. 8 A: There was a gate over in the corner 9 here they were using. Right around there somewhere. 10 Q: And you're indicating at the south -- 11 I believe that's the south -- southeast corner, is that 12 fair? 13 A: That's the northeast; isn't it? 14 Q: Well I'm going to suggest to you that 15 the north is the top of the map and that is the lake up 16 there. 17 A: Oh yeah, okay. 18 Q: Does that -- does that help you? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And the line in -- right next -- 21 right at the bottom -- towards the bottom of the map, 22 that would be Highway 21. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the line that runs up on the 25 eastern border of -- what you've described as Aazhoodena,
821 that would be Outer Drive? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So you would've came in at a gate 4 that's located at the corner of Outer Drive and Highway 5 21? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that's where you had initially 8 set up your camp? Is that -- am I understanding that 9 properly? 10 A: No. We -- our camp was set up over 11 here and that's where we even drove in. But we set up a 12 tent -- kitchen tent over -- over here on -- beside the 13 rifle range. 14 Q: Now I understand that -- that the 15 camp had moved on a number of occasions. Is it your 16 recollection that that's where you first would have set 17 up your camp? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that's adjacent to the -- what's 20 marked on the map as the rifle range? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And your -- your testimony is that 23 you entered with Glenn George and Marlin Simon to your 24 recollection? 25 A: Yes.
831 Q: Did you set up your camp with them as 2 well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You indicated that you had set up a 5 kitchen. Where was that kitchen located, Mr. George? 6 A: Roughly right around and beside the 7 rifle range there. To the edge of the trees. 8 Q: All right. I wonder if you would 9 just maybe take the -- the hard copy map that you have in 10 front of you and one of the pens there, and if you could 11 put a mark there. If you could make a number 1 and 12 circle it as to where you think the -- the kitchen was. 13 Perhaps, Mr. Commissioner, so that the -- 14 the witness can continue to refer to this, I would ask 15 that that be marked as an exhibit. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-111. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-111. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-111: Document 1002409, page 13, Map 21 of Ipperwash Military Reserve, Marked 22 by witness Mr. Warren George, December 23 08/04. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:
841 Q: And your camp would be located 2 somewhere in the vicinity then of the kitchen that you 3 had set up and marked as number 1 on P-111? 4 A: Yeah, very close to it, yeah. 5 Q: Okay. Can you maybe put a number 2 6 there if you would please, Mr. George, as to where that 7 was located? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Can you tell us why, Mr. George, 12 people moved onto the land and decided to set up camp as 13 you did, there? 14 A: Why we set up in that spot? 15 Q: Well, first of all, why you -- why 16 people moved onto the -- onto the Army base? 17 A: Because the government didn't appear 18 to be owning up to its promises. 19 Q: And the promise you referred to us 20 earlier that was that it would be returned. 21 A: Return of the land, yes. 22 Q: Okay. You've indicated earlier as 23 well, that some of the other activities that were engaged 24 in, the letter writing campaign, the protests and 25 demonstrations, didn't seem to be effective?
851 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Were you part of the 3 decision makers that made -- made the decision to move 4 into the Army camp, Mr. George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And how was it that that 7 decision was arrived at? 8 A: It was discussed over a fairly long 9 period of time over the previous year, I would say or so. 10 Q: While people were -- before people 11 moved onto the range? 12 A: Could you repeat the question again 13 please? 14 Q: So the discussion to move into the 15 Army camp onto the range was made over the previous year, 16 is that what I understand you to -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- say? 19 A: To where we were -- where we set up 20 camp? Is that what you're talking about? 21 Q: I'm just trying to get a sense, Mr. 22 George, of how the decision was made to move onto the -- 23 onto the Army base in the first place. 24 A: I don't know. I don't know. 25 Q: Okay. So just to be clear, you
861 weren't part of that decision -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- is that fair? 4 A: No. Yeah, that's right. 5 Q: Okay. How was it that you learned 6 about people moving onto the Army base? 7 A: My cousin and uncle. 8 Q: And their names are? 9 A: Marlin and Glen. 10 Q: Okay. In finding out that people 11 were going to move onto the Army base and in fact that 12 they did move onto the Army base, do you know whether 13 there was any -- anything else discussed or agreed upon 14 as to how that would occur? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you know whether there was any 17 decisions taken as to what would happen if there was 18 resistence met? For example, if the military was there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: During the time that -- that -- when 21 you initially moved in, do you know whether or not 22 anybody had brought any weapons with them? By weapons 23 I'm referring specifically to firearms. 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you bring any weapons with you,
871 Mr. George? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. The people that you were with, 4 Glen and Marlin, do you know whether or not they had 5 brought any firearms with them? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was there any discussion among you, 8 Glen or Marlin as to whether or not you should have 9 firearms? 10 A: Somewhat, yes. 11 Q: And what was that? 12 A: If we did bring firearms in, it would 13 be an excuse for the military or the OPP to shoot us. 14 Q: Okay. So I gather from that response 15 that it's probably a good idea, you thought, not to bring 16 firearms? 17 A: Yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Can you tell us what other -- what 22 other folks you would have seen that had moved onto the 23 base by the time you had moved in? 24 When you came in with Glen and -- and 25 Marlin, can you tell us who else you might have observed
881 there? 2 A: There was Clifford -- Clifford was 3 living there and there was another -- 4 Q: You mean Clifford George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And there was another group of tents 8 down by the stone quarry. 9 Q: I wonder if you might just indicate 10 on the map that is marked as P-40, Mr. George, where 11 you're referring to when you say the stone quarry? 12 A: I believe -- believe that's the stone 13 quarry right there. 14 Q: And again for the record, you're 15 indicating at the lower right hand corner of the picture, 16 of the diagram? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what group of people were camped 19 there, Mr. George? 20 A: There -- Clouds, their last names 21 were Clouds and there was some last names with Mannings 22 living or camping around there. 23 Q: Okay. Perhaps you just might mark a 24 number 3 on the exhibit in front of you P-111. 25 A: Where they were camping?
891 Q: Yes. You can designate that as 2 number 3, where the Clouds and the Mannings were 3 residing. You've done that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: You mentioned that Clifford George 6 was there as well. Where was he residing in -- in your 7 recollection when you moved in the 6th, pardon me, in May 8 of 1995, 3, pardon me? 9 A: I don't recall where he was staying 10 at at that time. 11 Q: Anybody else that you recall, Mr. 12 George, that was -- that was there in 1993 when you came 13 in? 14 A: That was camping? 15 Q: That's right. 16 A: Dave -- Dave George had a trailer or 17 a tent type thing set up on the rifle range. 18 Q: Okay. Could you maybe mark that with 19 a number 4? And perhaps for the benefit of -- of all of 20 us, if you would simply point out on the map, the 21 diagram, where that might be? 22 A: Right around there. 23 Q: For the record the rifle range is 24 adjacent to Highway 21 at the lower end of the diagram 25 and you're pointing to what appears, at least to me, to
901 be the second box from the top in the area marked rifle 2 range? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Is there anybody that you 5 can recall that was camped there when you came in in May 6 of '93, Mr. George? 7 A: No. I don't recall. 8 Q: Do you recall whether Joe George was 9 there or Dudley George? 10 A: They were in the area, yes. 11 Q: And do you know where they were 12 camped? 13 A: On the 6th? 14 Q: Or whenever it was when you came in, 15 do you know where -- where Joe George for example was -- 16 was staying? 17 A: No. No, I don't. 18 Q: And what about the late Dudley 19 George? Do you know where he was residing at that time 20 in 1993 when you first came in? 21 A: He -- he didn't have a place there 22 when I first came in. 23 Q: I see. During the --during that 24 initial period when you came into the army camp, was 25 there any interaction between you or others of the
911 occupiers with the military? 2 A: The military was doing, they called 3 it routine patrols. 4 Q: Okay. I wonder if you could just 5 describe that? What -- what do you mean when you say 6 routine patrols done by the military? 7 A: They had a loud -- loud diesel pickup 8 truck and they would drive by our campsites and always 9 watching us. 10 Q: Perhaps you might just use that laser 11 pointer and indicate on P-40 on the screen as to where 12 they would be doing these what you've called routine 13 patrols. 14 A: Well, when we were living on the 15 range there, they would -- they would drive up this road 16 here and then they would drive to the back of the rifle 17 ranges and -- and come back out and drive along here and 18 more or less the perimeter of the reserve of Aazhoodena. 19 Q: You've indicated again just for the 20 record, from the what's -- what's been identified as the 21 built-up area which is located on the diagram on the 22 bottom right -- left-hand corner, there's a road inside 23 the camp -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- adjacent to Highway 21?
921 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then there's a road that runs 3 adjacent to the rifle range? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And then there's a perimeter 6 road that runs essentially around the entire army camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I wonder if you might just 9 describe for us this -- this diesel pickup truck. 10 A: It was loud and annoying, driving by 11 at all hours of the night. 12 Q: Okay. So I take it would be 13 disturbing to people that were camped there? 14 A: It would wake you up when you were 15 sleeping. 16 Q: Was there any interaction between the 17 -- the military who was doing these routine patrols and 18 the people who were camped there? 19 A: Some. 20 Q: What do you recall of that 21 interaction? 22 A: I recall Dudley telling them to leave 23 one morning. 24 Q: Okay. And this would be in 1993 25 after the people were still camping -- pardon me, when
931 they first moved in? 2 A: No, that was later on I believe, when 3 he was living in the trailer. 4 Q: All right. And in that initial 5 period, do you know whether or not there was any 6 interaction between the people that were camping there 7 and the military? 8 A: The military, when we first started 9 setting up camp at Number 1 there, they tried to tell us 10 that we couldn't -- couldn't set up camp there. 11 Q: Okay. Do you know who it was that 12 you were talking to from the military, or that was 13 speaking to you, telling you you can't set up camp there? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Was it a ranking officer, do you 16 recall or was it someone of lower rank, or perhaps an MP? 17 A: Perhaps an MP. 18 Q: You're not -- you're not sure, I 19 gather? 20 A: No, I'm not exactly sure, no. 21 Q: Okay. And when they -- they were 22 talking to you, do you know who all was -- who all it was 23 that was being spoken to? 24 A: I believe me, Glen and Marlin were 25 there at that time.
941 Q: And they had indicated to you that 2 you couldn't set up your camp there? What -- what did 3 they tell you? 4 A: They told us they wanted to try to 5 contain us to the -- the far corner to where the first 6 campers had been camping. 7 Q: And that -- you've indicated that -- 8 A: But -- 9 Q: -- to be the stone quarry -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- and it's marked as Number 3? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And beyond that, did they 14 tell you that should leave the Army camp altogether? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. As a result of their giving 17 you this advice that you couldn't camp there, where 18 you've indicated, or you couldn't set up the -- I think 19 you told us the kitchen -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- what happened? 22 A: Nothing. We carried on as we were. 23 Q: Okay. Why -- and why was that? 24 A: Because I -- I believe that was the 25 area where -- around where my -- my grandpa used to live
951 before, and they were -- they were the ones that were 2 trespassing. 3 Q: All right. So, in essence, you were 4 -- you were reclaiming what was to your knowledge, your 5 grandfather's land? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Aside from this 8 conversation, was there any other interaction between the 9 occupiers and the military that you can recall, again 10 during that early period in '93? 11 A: No, not that I recall. 12 Q: Was there any interaction with the 13 cadets that would have been at the Army camp from time to 14 time during the summer of the -- of '93/94 at least? 15 A: Sometimes they would drive by on 21 16 coming from Grand Bend, yelling obscenities at us. 17 Q: When you say "obscenities", what do 18 you mean specifically, Mr. George? 19 A: Trying to tell us to go home. 20 Q: All right. Anything else? 21 A: That's all I can recall. 22 Q: When you say "obscenities", telling 23 someone to go home doesn't necessarily fit in that 24 characterization. 25 A: I believe they were calling us "waa-
961 hoos" at one time there. But there was a number of 2 different times and I don't recall exactly what was said. 3 Q: Okay. And again, I'm just getting to 4 your comment about yelling obscenities. I take it that 5 they were swearing as well, is that -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You've told us earlier that Dudley 8 George would make comments from time to time to the 9 passing military routine patrols. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Anything beyond that, Mr. George? 12 A: There was one time when we were back 13 --back by the cemetery, the roads are narrow back there 14 and only one vehicle can pass at a time, and they were -- 15 they were coming toward us and Dudley made them back up 16 and turn around and go the other way. 17 Q: I wonder if you might just indicate 18 on -- on the map on the screen as to where that's 19 located? 20 A: Right around that area there. 21 Q: Okay. For the record, on P-40 you're 22 indicating an area just below the "S" in "reserve"? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And which road are you 25 talking about that was so narrow that only one vehicle
971 could go through at a time? 2 A: This road right here. 3 Q: So you and Mr. -- Mr. Dudley George 4 were on that road? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Were you in a vehicle? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Who was driving? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Okay. And -- and just again if you 11 wouldn't mind, tell us what it was that happened. I 12 think you said they had to back up or something? 13 A: Yeah, like they couldn't pass, so 14 Dudley got out and walked towards them and they backed up 15 and turned around and went the other way. 16 Q: Was there any kind of verbal exchange 17 to your recollection, between Mr. Dudley George and the 18 military who backed up and went the other way? 19 A: I believe so, but I couldn't hear 20 what was said. 21 Q: Had you every heard Mr. Dudley George 22 indicate to the military routine patrols that -- anything 23 to the effect that they were trespassers or such? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay.
981 A: When we were living on the ranges in 2 the trailer there, we would have to -- the outhouse was 3 across the road and he's walking to the outhouse and the 4 military were doing their routine patrol and he asked 5 them when they were going to go home. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And they said as soon as we receive 8 our orders. And Dudley just told them, well I just gave 9 you an order. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: And that was about it for that. 12 Q: Was there any instances, Mr. George, 13 when you would have made observations of Dudley George 14 doing more than simply making verbal comments to the 15 routine patrols -- the military? 16 A: After a while their routine patrols 17 were getting pretty annoying and we started to whatever 18 we had, rotten eggs or rotten fish laying around, we 19 would throw it at their truck. 20 Q: All right. And what effect would 21 that have? 22 A: They were driving by the trailer 23 faster than before anyway. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Rolling their windows up.
991 Q: All right. During this period of 2 time, Mr. George, how were you making your living? 3 A: In '93? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I believe I was working in Kettle 6 Point at that time. 7 Q: Okay. And what were you doing in 8 Kettle Point when you were working there? 9 A: Heavy equipment operator. 10 Q: Okay. What kind -- what kind of 11 heavy equipment are you able to operate? 12 A: Bulldozer, excavator, packer. 13 Q: You have some training in that, do 14 you? 15 A: You mean did I go to school for that? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. You learned it on -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- on the job, kind of thing? 21 A: Well my dad has a tractor back hoe, 22 too, so I had some knowledge prior to that. 23 Q: Okay. So you've been around heavy 24 machinery? 25 A: Yes.
1001 Q: Yeah. And aside from -- from working 2 at Kettle Point, I gather you're staying at -- at what 3 you've described as Aazhoodena, so you would travel back 4 and forth, did you? 5 A: Yes, bicycle. 6 Q: Okay. Did you do anything beyond 7 that in order to -- to supplement your -- your income? 8 A: I would go on hunts with the other 9 guys and fishing. Do odd jobs for my dad, changing oil 10 and greasing the buses. 11 Q: I understand your dad had a -- was 12 operating a busing business back then? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you said you would go on 15 hunts with the guys, what -- can you explain that for us, 16 please? 17 A: Well, we would have -- we would drop 18 a bunch of people off on one end of a bush and have them 19 push all the deer to the other end of the bush where the 20 shooters were. 21 Q: Okay. And what was your job? 22 A: To push the deer out to the shooters. 23 Q: Okay. Is there a name for that? 24 A: A hound. 25 Q: Okay. Besides hunting, what else did
1011 you -- do you do? 2 A: Fishing. I did fishing with gill 3 nets down Kettle Point for Joe George. 4 Q: Okay. Joe George was a -- is a 5 commercial fisherman? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: In the sense that he catches fish and 8 he sells them, right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And during that period of time in 11 1993, did you make any observations about helicopters, 12 particularly military helicopters? 13 A: Yeah, there was a helicopter that 14 would fly low above the trees there quite often. It was 15 fairly close and sort of put fear into whoever was down 16 there. 17 Q: Okay. When you say quite often, how 18 often is that? Would that be daily basis, more than once 19 a day, less than? 20 A: Once or twice a day for a week or two 21 (2). 22 Q: And when they would fly low over -- 23 did you say just above the trees? 24 A: Yeah just above the tree line, real 25 low.
1021 Q: Okay. And would it be flying fast or 2 slow? 3 A: Fairly slow. 4 Q: Okay. During this time, were you 5 aware of an allegation that a helicopter had been shot? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 8 A: A helicopter had been shot as we were 9 going to work the next morning there and we were pulled 10 over by a OPP and he searched our car looking for a -- a 11 gun. 12 Q: Okay. When you say we, who were you 13 with? 14 A: Kevin Simon. 15 Q: And when you were pulled over by the 16 OPP, where did that take place, Mr. George? 17 A: Just before the barracks on Highway 18 21. 19 Q: All right. And the officer indicated 20 that they were looking for a gun, what happens? 21 A: He searched behind the seat and found 22 a rubber snake and let us go. 23 Q: Did the rubber snake have anything to 24 do with him letting you go? 25 A: I think so. It sort of startled him.
1031 Q: Now -- excuse me for a moment. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: The officer indicated that he was 6 looking for a weapon? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah. Did he find one (1) in your 9 vehicle? 10 A: No. 11 Q: I think you indicated earlier, you 12 didn't have a weapon there? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Just to follow up on that for a 15 moment, have you ever -- do you own a weapon, Mr. George? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Have you ever owned a weapon? 18 A: I've had a .22. 19 Q: And do you still have that .22? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. Did you ever have a 22 firearm at the -- at the Army base or Aazhoodena as 23 you've described it? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You've indicated that you were living
1041 next to the rifle range. Did you ever see anybody using 2 those -- the rifle range or the firing ranges? 3 A: While we were living there? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I don't think so while we were living 6 there. 7 Q: What about previous to that? 8 A: I remember seeing the OPP using the 9 pistol range from time to time. 10 Q: Where is the pistol range located 11 that you would have seen the OPP using? 12 A: Right around that area. 13 Q: And you are indicating a spot 14 adjacent to the rifle range marked thirty (30) -- thirty 15 (30) yard range? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that's the firing range for short 18 pistols? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: Okay. How many times did you observe 21 the OPP using that range? 22 A: Two (2) or three (3) times. Maybe 23 two (2) times a year or so. 24 Q: Your recollection is that occurred 25 before you moved onto the range?
1051 A: Yes. 2 Q: And if I can just get back to the 3 helicopter shooting, do you know what -- what happened as 4 a result of the allegation that the helicopter was shot? 5 A: The next day I was told the OPP 6 formed a line from Outer Drive and searched all the way 7 to the barracks. 8 Q: Perhaps you can just explain that 9 further for me, Mr. George? 10 A: The OPP formed a line across here -- 11 Q: Okay, you're indicating a line from 12 Highway 21 north on Outer Drive? 13 A: Yes. And then they walked -- walked 14 west -- west of the barracks. 15 Q: Okay. Now this is not something, I 16 understand from your testimony, that you actually seen? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I think My 23 Friend, Mr. Worme, just clarified. I want to be careful 24 that this witness is only giving evidence that he 25 actually witnessed as opposed to relating to hearsay to
1061 us about the events in relation to that investigation? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 3 he's clarifying that. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: Again, just -- just in terms of that, 7 you were not present for that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: But you were given some information 10 that a line was formed, they advanced and did -- did 11 what? 12 A: Searched their -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We now have 14 Ms. Karen Jones with an objection. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, Mr. Chair. I 16 thought actually Mr. Worme had clarified that this 17 witness wasn't here and didn't have direct knowledge. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he did. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: And if that's the case, 20 then I'm going to suggest it's not going to assist you or 21 anyone else to have him recount to you what other people 22 told him about an event that he wasn't present at. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have 24 allowed some hearsay. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I appreciate My
1071 Friend's advice -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 3 think it's -- 4 MR. DONALD WORME: -- on that point -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 6 necessarily -- 7 MR. DONALD WORME: -- and I don't expect 8 to go any further -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: -- on that, Mr. 11 Commissioner. I would simply note, though, that this is 12 the first witness that told us about the -- the search 13 done in any kind of co-ordinated fashion and I'm hopeful 14 that we will hear evidence at some point from others -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 16 MR. DONALD WORME: -- along those lines. 17 And that's the only reason that I -- that I would raise 18 that at this point. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He has no 20 knowledge of it, so I think we should leave it at that 21 for now. Or no direct knowledge, no personal knowledge. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: That's right, Mr. 23 Commissioner, thank you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:
1081 Q: At some point after you had moved in 2 there, do you recall whether or not Mr. Dudley George had 3 been hunting or was a hunter? 4 A: Yes, he -- he got a deer at one (1) 5 time there. 6 Q: And do you know when that was, Mr. 7 George? 8 A: Either the winter of '93 or four (4), 9 somewheres in that area. 10 Q: All right. And why does that stick 11 out in your mind? 12 A: Because he told me it was his first 13 deer he shot. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know what -- do you 15 know how it was that he shot it or where he shot it? Was 16 that explained to you? 17 A: He -- he told me he shot it be -- 18 beside the rifle range at the back. 19 Q: Did you ever see Dudley George with a 20 firearm? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Did he tell you whose firearm 23 he may have used in order to shoot this deer at the 24 location you've described? 25 A: No, I assumed he borrowed it.
1091 Q: And again, just to follow up on that 2 point. Mr. George, did you see any firearms during that 3 period of time on the range? 4 A: You mean were they stored on the 5 range, you mean? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: No, no. 8 Q: Okay. Where were weapons stored, 9 that is, where were firearms stored? 10 A: Kettle Point mostly. And then we'd 11 borrow them. 12 Q: You're aware that in -- that in 1995, 13 the barracks or the built-up area was occupied? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And were you part of the decision to 16 engage in that occupation of the barracks, Mr. George? 17 A: I may have had a part in -- in that. 18 Q: What can you tell us about the part 19 that you may have had it that? 20 A: We had discussions about it prior. 21 Q: And the nature of those discussions 22 were? 23 A: To get the government to start to do 24 something about the return of the land. 25 Q: Okay.
1101 A: Draw attention. 2 Q: You mentioned earlier, Mr. George, 3 that you had engaged in the -- letter writing campaign. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I take it others were involved in 6 this letter writing campaign? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you know who all was involved in 9 that? 10 A: Kevin and Marlin Simon for sure, and 11 there were others that I don't recall. 12 Q: Do you know many letters would have 13 been written and I think you've told us earlier it was to 14 various politicians including the prime minister? 15 A: I -- I don't know how many letters 16 were written. 17 Q: Do you -- do you recall how many 18 letters that you might have written or signed off on? 19 A: Half a dozen roughly. 20 Q: Did you ever get any response to 21 those, by the way? 22 A: Yes. I think so. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: And just said they were looking into 25 it and that was it.
1111 Q: Beyond them looking into it, was 2 there any kind of action taken insofar as the letters 3 that you had written? 4 A: It didn't seem like it, no. 5 Q: All right. And so that was part of 6 the role that you might have had in terms of coming to a 7 decision to take over the barracks? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Was there anything else that you're 10 aware of that you might have done in order to come to 11 this decision? 12 A: No. I don't recall. 13 Q: All right. And do you recall who 14 would have made the decision to move into the barracks or 15 the built-up area? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Would this have been a decision that 18 would have been taken by one (1) individual? 19 A: A number. A number of individuals 20 would have agreed upon it. 21 Q: And do you have any recollection 22 today who among those number of individuals would have 23 agreed upon it was actually involved? 24 A: Just Kevin and Marlin that I can 25 recall at this time.
1121 Q: I understand that around that point 2 in time, something was located at one (1) of the 3 residences, one (1) of the -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- trailers or -- or campsites? 6 A: Terry George had a trailer at the 7 back of the rifle range and he'd come over and brought us 8 over to have a look at the dome shaped thing he found 9 underneath his trailer. 10 Q: I wonder if you could describe that 11 for us first of all and then I'm going to get you to 12 indicate just on the map there where Terry George had his 13 campsite. Perhaps we can do that first. 14 A: All right. 15 Q: Do you want to just take the pointer 16 and -- 17 A: His trailer was roughly around that 18 area. 19 Q: You're indicating, for the purposes 20 of the record, just on the east side or the right side of 21 the rifle range where it's written rifle range. 22 Between that and the note thirty (30) yard 23 range? 24 A: Yes. It -- it looked like a salad 25 bowl with the top part covered and you couldn't see
1131 inside of it. 2 Q: And what was this object? 3 A: We believed it to be a listening 4 device. 5 Q: And this was found where? 6 A: Underneath Terry's trailer. 7 Q: Do you know what happened to this 8 device that you believed to be a listening device? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: You had an opportunity, though, to 11 examine it? 12 A: I had a look at it, yes. 13 Q: Was there any markings on it? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Can you tell us -- well, you've told 16 us it looked like a salad bowl, beyond that I -- I take 17 it it was metal? 18 A: I think so. I -- I don't recall what 19 type of material it was. 20 Q: And -- and again, do you know what 21 happened to this? 22 A: As far as I know, Terry -- Terry has 23 -- I don't know what happened to it from there. 24 Q: Mr. George, in 1995 you had reported 25 an incident to the Ontario Provincial Police.
1141 A: My tires were slashed on my car. 2 That's about a '83 Parisienne white. 3 Q: Right, go ahead and tell us about 4 that. 5 A: George Speck came down to inspect the 6 car and he seemed more interested in looking at the 7 serial numbers than he did at the tires. 8 Q: That's Detective Constable Speck with 9 the OPP? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Right. Do you know the date that you 12 might have made this complaint? 13 A: Not exactly, no. 14 Q: If I suggest to you that it was the 15 28th of June, 1995, does that help you? 16 A: That sounds about the area. 17 Q: Okay. And when you say your tires 18 were slashed -- 19 A: They were cut -- 20 Q: I take it that's more than one (1) 21 tire? 22 A: All four (4) of them. 23 Q: All right. And what had happened to 24 them? 25 A: They were cut on the side.
1151 Q: Okay. On the wall? 2 A: Yeah, on the side wall, yeah. 3 Q: And do you know what happened as to 4 how they came to be slashed or cut on the side wall? 5 A: I believe the Army guys slashed them. 6 Q: Did you indicate this to Detective 7 Constable Speck when he attended? 8 A: I think so, but I don't recall for 9 sure. 10 Q: Okay. Did you receive any further 11 information as to the investigation that Detective 12 Constable Speck was engaged in? 13 A: Nothing. 14 Q: Did you inquire with the OPP as to 15 what has become of the investigation of the complaint 16 that you had lodged? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Why is that, Mr. George? 19 A: I -- it didn't seem like they were 20 going to do anything just by their attitude. 21 Q: When you say "they", I take it that 22 there was someone -- 23 A: George -- 24 Q: -- else -- 25 A: -- George Speck --
1161 Q: -- in the company of -- 2 A: Just by -- from George Speck that day 3 when he inspected my car he had -- he didn't look like he 4 was going to do too much for it. 5 Q: And, in fact, you never did receive 6 any information as to what became of that investigation? 7 A: None whatsoever. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Later on that summer, Mr. George, the 12 barracks were occupied. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And were you part of that -- that 15 group that engaged in the occupation of the barracks or 16 the built up area? 17 A: Not, no, not when they first went in 18 there. 19 Q: Right. Where were you when -- when 20 they first moved in. 21 A: I was best man at a stag and do at my 22 parents' place in Kettle Point. 23 Q: Okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1171 Q: At what -- at what point in time did 2 you come into the -- into the built-up area, Mr. George? 3 A: Either the next day or the day after 4 it was taken over. 5 Q: Now there's a diagram up on the 6 screen there, just beside you. Do you recognize that as 7 being the built up area or what's been referred to as the 8 built-up area -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- of the barracks? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when you came in there, either 13 the next day or the day after, what did you do, what did 14 you see? 15 A: I was more or less looking for a 16 place to stay. 17 Q: You seen other people there? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. First of all, let me ask you, 20 did you see any military personnel there? 21 A: No, I didn't see any. 22 Q: Do you know what became of the 23 military personnel? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. So you were looking for a
1181 place to stay? I -- I gather you found a place to stay? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And where was that? 4 A: Right about there. 5 Q: Now I'm not sure how to describe that 6 for the record, but is -- is that -- 7 A: The number on the side of the 8 building calls it "1". 9 Q: Number 1? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And where do you reside now, Mr. 14 George? 15 A: The same place. 16 Q: Okay. And can you tell us anything 17 about the mood of the people that you observed there when 18 you came in either the day after or -- or the next day of 19 the initial occupation of the barracks? 20 A: I don't really recall. 21 Q: All right. How did you feel about 22 it? 23 A: I was glad not to be living in a tent 24 over the wintertime again anyway. 25 Q: All right. With respect to the
1191 infrastructure of the built-up area, do you know who was 2 operating that? 3 A: At what time? 4 Q: At the time when people first moved 5 in, in occupation of the barracks? 6 A: I believe the -- the keys were turned 7 over to Judas. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And instructions were left with him, 10 but I -- I don't know exactly how it was done. 11 Q: All right. And that would 12 essentially be the instructions to maintain the physical 13 infrastructure? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: The water, the sewer, the stuff that 16 you do now? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Is there anything else 19 about that period of time when you -- when people first 20 moved into the built-up area, Mr. George, that you can 21 tell us about here today? 22 A: I -- no. 23 Q: Mr. Commissioner, I'm going to move 24 in to -- to the occupation of the Park. And I wonder if 25 this might be an appropriate time to break for the -- for
1201 lunchbreak. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 3 Let's take our lunchbreak now, an hour and fifteen (15) 4 minutes. I can't see the clock exactly -- about five (5) 5 to. Let's say ten (10) after 2:00. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 8 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:10. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 12:52 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 2:10 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed, please be seated. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. When we 18 left off this afternoon or left off earlier this 19 afternoon, that is, we were just moving into the 20 occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 21 I'll give you a moment to -- to -- now 22 that's your witness binder and I would prefer actually, 23 Mr. George, if you didn't refer to that while you are 24 testifying. 25 A: All right.
1211 Q: Yes. But on September the 4th of 2 1995, Mr. George, you were aware that there was a group 3 of individuals that moved into Ipperwash Provincial Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And up on the board -- up on the 6 screen beside you is a diagram that has been entered in 7 these proceedings and it has been marked as P-61. 8 Do you recognize that diagram first of 9 all, Mr. George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: I wonder if you would just use the 12 laser pointer then and indicate -- well let me ask you 13 this; you were part of that initial group that went into 14 the Park? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And can you recall who you were 17 accompanied by or who you accompanied on the initial 18 entry into the Park on the afternoon of Monday, September 19 the 4th, 1995? 20 A: Marlin Simon, Kevin Simon, Judas 21 George, Nicholas Cottrelle. That's all I can recall 22 right now. 23 Q: Do you know whether Dudley George was 24 there? 25 A: Yes.
1221 Q: All right. And I wonder if you could 2 just then point to the -- using the laser pointer, point 3 to the diagram and indicate where it was that you would 4 have entered along with these other individuals, the 5 campground? 6 A: It was through a gate in the fence 7 right about there. 8 Q: And for the purposes of the record, 9 you were indicating -- I guess it's -- it's difficult for 10 me to say, but it looks like there's a roadway that runs 11 essentially through the -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- the centre of the Park area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you're indicating that there is a 16 gate at that end; is there? 17 A: Yes. Yes. 18 Q: And would you just tell us then what 19 it is that -- that was done in order to gain entry? 20 A: We had to use our bolt cutters to cut 21 a chain to open the gate. 22 Q: I see. And do you know who was -- 23 who used the bolt cutters to cut the chain to enter the 24 gate? 25 A: I don't recall. There was a cement
1231 block blocking that gate prior to that, a day or two (2) 2 before that that moved by the MNR I believe. 3 Q: All right. Did you see them move 4 this cement block that was in front of the gate? 5 A: No. No, I never. 6 Q: How do you know that it was the MNR 7 then that moved that cement block? 8 A: It couldn't be moved by a person. It 9 had to be someone who was working inside the Park. 10 Q: I see. So the cement block was on 11 the inside of the Park blocking the gate? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. When you and this group 14 of other individuals then cut the chain and entered the 15 Park on the east side of the Park, was there anybody else 16 in the Park, Mr. George? 17 A: Just police officers. 18 Q: And can you describe where they might 19 have been located, what it is that they were doing? 20 A: They were just watching us, observing 21 us. 22 Q: And where were they located when they 23 were observing you? 24 A: Scattered about in this area. 25 Q: Okay. For the purposes of the
1241 record, you're indicating at the upper right-hand portion 2 of the Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that's a campground area is it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Can you tell us how many 7 police officers you seen there observing you? 8 A: Three (3) or four (4). 9 Q: Okay. Were they on foot, were they - 10 - did they have vehicles, were they marked police 11 vehicles? 12 A: I'm not sure where their vehicles 13 were parked. I didn't see the vehicles. 14 Q: You didn't see any police vehicles? 15 A: Not that I recall. 16 Q: But you did see three (3) or four (4) 17 police officers? 18 A: Yeah, dressed in uniform. 19 Q: Okay. Anything distinctive about the 20 uniform or is it the standard Ontario Police uniform? 21 A: Yeah, standard -- standard uniform. 22 Q: All right. Did you recognize any of 23 the individual officers, the three (3) or four (4) 24 officers that were observing you? 25 A: No.
1251 Q: Okay. Do you know whether there was 2 any conversation or any -- any dialogue, any attempts to 3 communicate between the three (3) or four (4) officers 4 that were observing you and the people that you 5 accompanied into the Park? 6 A: Some -- some people were talking to 7 them, yes, but I -- I wasn't. 8 Q: Okay. Do you know who was talking to 9 them? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: Okay. And do you know what was being 12 said? Could you hear that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: I take it that you were further back 15 then? 16 A: Yes. Away from them where I couldn't 17 hear them talking. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Far enough away where I couldn't hear 20 them. 21 Q: And aside from the three (3) or four 22 (4) uniformed officers, was there anybody else in the 23 Park that you were able to discern? 24 A: I believe there was a couple or more 25 in the trailer or motorhome undercover -- undercover
1261 police officers. 2 Q: And where was this trailer or 3 motorhome located, Mr. George? 4 A: Somewheres up in this area here, I 5 believe. 6 Q: Okay. Now there's a road that 7 appears to run north and south and you're indicating just 8 adjacent to that road through the camp area on the upper 9 right-hand portion of the diagram? 10 A: Yes. Somewheres in that area. 11 Q: And when you say that there were 12 undercover officers there, what makes you think that? 13 A: I'm assuming that because the rest of 14 the campers had left. The Park was closing. 15 Q: Okay. Were there any other campers 16 in the Park that you could see, other than this one (1) 17 trailer or motorhome? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you see that one (1) trailer or 20 motorhome leave the Park at any time? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Mr. George, do you know 23 whether or not there was any communication either to the 24 Ontario Provincial Police or the Minister -- Ministry of 25 Natural Resources about the intention of the group that
1271 you were accompanying to come into the Park? 2 A: I believe it was told to the OPP 3 prior to that, like the summer before. 4 Q: Over the course of the summer of 5 1995? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what was it that you believe was 8 told to the Ontario Provincial Police? 9 A: That we were going to move into the 10 Park and take it back. 11 Q: And was it indicated, to your 12 knowledge, why you were going to move into the Park and 13 take it back? 14 A: Because burial grounds had been 15 desecrated and I believe there was a -- that was part of 16 the original Aazhoodena. 17 Q: Now when you say "burial grounds were 18 desecrated", are you meaning the burial grounds where you 19 had informed us earlier that you'd attended the funeral 20 of the late Dan George? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Is that the burial grounds that 23 you're referring to when you say burial grounds were 24 desecrated? 25 A: No. The ones in -- inside of the
1281 Park. 2 Q: Okay. I wonder if you just might 3 tell us about that, that -- how -- how did you become 4 aware that there were burial grounds inside the Park? 5 A: Through my grandfather. 6 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what it 7 was that he had indicated to you as far as there being 8 burial grounds? 9 A: There was a burial ground in the -- 10 in the Park and the government was supposed to erect a 11 fence around it and keep care of it. 12 Q: Do you know where in the Park that 13 this burial ground was supposed to have been, that your 14 grandfather told you about? 15 A: Not exactly, no. 16 Q: Okay. Did he indicate to you with 17 any kind of detail as to where that might be? 18 A: Not that I recall. 19 Q: You've told us earlier that you 20 believed that the Ontario Provincial Police were informed 21 of the intention to come into the Park and the reason for 22 that is that it contained the burial grounds. 23 Do you know who it was that gave this 24 information? 25 A: Gave this information to the OPP?
1291 Q: Yes. 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay. Do you know where this 4 occurred? 5 A: We have a small building out by 6 twenty-one (21) where we used to -- used for meeting. 7 Q: A small building on -- adjacent to 8 Highway 21? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: I'm just going to see if we can get 11 that diagram back up on the board. If you can just use 12 that laser pointer and indicate where it is. 13 A: I believe it's right around in this 14 area here. 15 Q: You're indicating the area just 16 adjacent to what's marked as the Sten Range below the 17 thirty (30) yard Range? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Mr. George, we've been advised that 20 that building has sometimes been referred to as Argument 21 Hall; is that what -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- you're referring to? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And so is it your information
1301 that during the summer of 1995 there was meetings between 2 the residents of Aazhoodena and the Ontario Provincial 3 Police? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: At that hall? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Would you know the names of the 8 officers from the Ontario Provincial Police that would 9 have attended these meetings? 10 A: George Speck may have been there, but 11 I can't be sure on that. 12 Q: Is there anybody else that comes to 13 mind? 14 A: I don't recall, no. 15 Q: And do you know who it was that would 16 have provided this information to members of the OPP? 17 A: I don't recall, no. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know whether anything 19 was delivered by way of writing of this intention to move 20 into the Park? 21 A: I don't recall, no. 22 Q: Do you know, Mr. George, why that 23 particular date was chosen to move into the Park, that is 24 to say September the 4th as opposed to September 10th or 25 -- or --
1311 A: Because -- 2 Q: -- July or earlier? 3 A: Because the Park was closing for the 4 season and there would be no -- no campers in there, and 5 they don't have no use for it during the winter. 6 Q: Okay. Are there any campers there 7 after the long weekend typically, Mr. George, to your 8 knowledge? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And entering the Park, do you know 11 whether or not there was any interaction with officials 12 from the Ministry of Natural Resources and the people who 13 came into the Park that you accompanied? 14 A: I heard that they handed over the 15 keys to the building and let him know about the 16 maintenance that had to be done. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: The keys were handed over. 19 Q: And I gather from the way you phrased 20 that, that you weren't actually there to see that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: In terms of people that came into the 23 Park, you've indicated that Roderick George was there, 24 Judas? 25 A: Yes.
1321 Q: Glenn George was there? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Kevin Simon and Marlin Simon? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Nicholas Cottrelle? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you know an Isaac Doxtator? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you know him as Buck? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Right. Was he there? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: Gabriel Doxtator, do you recall if he 14 was there? 15 A: You're -- you're talking about when 16 we went through the fence and broke the chain? 17 Q: That's right. On September the 4th 18 of '95, going into the Park. 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Perhaps what I can do is simply ask 21 you whether you know these individuals and you can 22 indicate for us -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- whether or not they -- you do know 25 them.
1331 A: Yes. 2 Q: So you know -- you know Isaac 3 Doxtator. And can you tell us whether he was among the 4 group that went into the Park on the 4th of September; if 5 you can recall? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: Gabriel Doxtator, are you familiar 8 with him? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you recall whether or not he 11 was part of that group that went in on the 4th of 12 September? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: Russ -- Russell Jewel? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You're -- you're familiar with him? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And do you know whether he was one 19 (1) of those that you accompanied into the Park? 20 A: Yes, I think so. I'm pretty sure. 21 Q: He has a brother, Les Jewel? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you -- you are familiar with him? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was he part of this group that
1341 went into the Park on the 4th of September? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you know Al George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was he part of this group, to 6 your recollection? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: How about Sam Isaac, Mr. George? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Do you know him? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And you don't recall 13 whether he was part of that group that went in on the 4th 14 of September? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Ed Isaac? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You know him? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And was he part of this group? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: Robert Isaac? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You're familiar with him? 25 A: Yes.
1351 Q: And do you know whether he was part 2 of this group? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 Q: Do you know Charles George, sometimes 5 known as Chuck? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you know whether he was part 8 of that group? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Do you know a Wayne Pine, Mr. George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you know whether he was part of 13 the group that entered on the 4th of September? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Similarly with respect to Bob Antone? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you know who he is? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And have you any recollection whether 20 he was part of that group that you would have 21 accompanied? 22 A: When we first opened the gate, no, I 23 don't believe he was there then. 24 Q: I take it that he came at some later 25 period of time --
1361 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- did he? Do you know when that 3 might have been? 4 A: Not exactly, no. 5 Q: Do you know a Bruce Elijah, Mr. 6 George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you know whether he was part 9 of the group that went in on September the 4th of '95? 10 A: I don't believe so. 11 Q: Are any of those people that I've 12 just mentioned, commencing with Isaac Doxtator to Bruce 13 Elijah, are they members of -- of Stony Point? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Do you know where they would 16 have -- where they're from? 17 A: Some are from Oneida. Oneida, 18 Muncey, Chippewa of the Thames, that area. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And some were from Walpole. 21 Q: And these names, Oneida, Chippewa of 22 the Thames, these are -- 23 A: Different -- 24 Q: -- different Indian reservations 25 located in the area?
1371 A: Yeah, about a hour away. 2 Q: Walpole Island, similarly is an 3 Indian reserve? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: And do you know how it was that these 7 people came to be? I take it all of them were at the 8 Park at some point in time, although they weren't 9 necessarily part of the initial group that went in? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I take that at some point in time 12 each of these individuals was at the Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And do you know how it was 15 that they came to be there? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: All right. I guess what I'm getting 18 at, would they be there on invitation or would they be 19 there on their own, if you can tell us? 20 A: Just for a -- to visit. 21 Q: All right. Do you know, Mr. George, 22 whether or not there was any media coverage of this event 23 on September the 4th of '95 when you and these others 24 entered the Park? 25 A: No, I don't know of any.
1381 Q: And any of the police officers that 2 you've described whether uniform or undercover, whether 3 any of them had any kind of cameras or -- or other 4 devices? 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: Mr. George, you had -- had indicated 7 to me earlier that there was -- that the Park had 8 initially been located at some other location. 9 Is that your understanding? 10 A: Yes, yes. 11 Q: And what can you tell us about that 12 and how was it that you came to -- to know about this? 13 A: I knew that the Park was on the other 14 side of the road from my grandpa and I used to drive a 15 dirt bike down to the dunes in the Army camp there once 16 in a while, and I would go through the -- the old part 17 where the Park used to be. 18 Q: If I can just draw your attention to 19 the diagram on the screen, marked as P-40. 20 A: It would have been over here. 21 Q: Okay. So you're indicating an -- an 22 area -- is that -- that's west of Army Camp Road? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And would that be south of East 25 Parkway Drive?
1391 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. You'll forgive me, Mr. George, 3 you had indicated that you had driven -- I'm sorry -- a 4 dirt bike in that area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when would that have been? And - 7 - and what was it that you observed? 8 A: In my early teens. And you could -- 9 you could tell the small roadways inside there and where 10 that campsites had used to be, and there are still some 11 Hydro polls up around there. 12 Q: All right. Did your grandfather 13 indicate to you when it was that the -- the Park had been 14 relocated? 15 A: I believe I read it somewheres. I 16 think it was around 1937. 17 Q: Okay. So you didn't get that 18 information from your grandfather; is that what I'm -- 19 A: Yeah. Yeah. Part -- partially from 20 him and partially from reading. 21 Q: Okay. Just with respect to the move 22 of the Park, and I -- I recognize that you were part of 23 the initial group that went in, was there any discussion 24 prior to moving into the Park as to what would happen if 25 you were encountering officials from -- from the Ministry
1401 of Natural Resources or the Ontario Provincial Police? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Was there any discussion about 4 whether or not it would be prudent to take firearms in? 5 A: Some. 6 Q: And can you tell us about that 7 discussion? 8 A: We agreed not to take firearms in 9 because it would made an -- an excuse for the army or the 10 police to shoot at us, kill us. 11 Q: Okay. And as far as you're aware, 12 did everybody maintain that position? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I can ask you about you. Did 15 you, at any point in time, Mr. George, take a firearm 16 into the Park? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Either on September the 4th of any 19 subsequent date? 20 A: No. 21 Q: I had asked you earlier about the 22 undercover officers that you believed were present. Do 23 you know of any encounters that any members of your group 24 may have had with these individuals? 25 A: Prior on -- earlier to that, I'm not
1411 exactly sure of the date but Kevin told me about a time 2 when they went into the Park and tried to get a ice cream 3 at the store inside of the Park. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 6 Tuck-Jackson? 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, Mr. 8 Commissioner. I fully appreciate that the Rules of 9 Evidence are not as they would be at a traditional trial 10 in -- to extent that hearsay is permissible. 11 And I also fully appreciate that in the 12 context of hearing out-of-Inquiry statements, if I can 13 put it that way, from people who are now deceased, people 14 who otherwise can't come to the Inquiry, it is 15 appropriate to hear that information. 16 But, in my respectful submission, when 17 we've all, for example, heard from Kevin Simon, it is 18 inappropriate for this witness to be permitted to convey 19 evidence for the proof of the truth of its contents, as 20 to what Kevin Simon told him transpired. It's not 21 helpful to you, sir. You've already heard from Kevin 22 Simon. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Kevin Simon 24 has testified. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: That's -- that's fine,
1421 Mr. Commissioner. I don't intend to pursue that any 2 further. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: I understand, Mr. George, that you 7 then left the Park at some point on the 4th of September 8 1995? 9 A: Around 7:30. 10 Q: Okay. And where did you go and what 11 were you doing? 12 A: I went to Lucan (phonetic) and spent 13 the night at my uncle's house. And the next day I went 14 to London and did a roofing job. 15 Q: Okay. Now you're going to help me 16 here if you would, please. Where is Lucan? 17 A: Twenty (20) minutes away from London. 18 Q: And your uncle, who is that? 19 A: Roy Wakefield (phonetic). 20 Q: Okay. And -- and the following day, 21 that would be the 5th of September? 22 A: I went to work again in London. 23 Q: Okay. And you were working with your 24 uncle, were you? 25 A: Yes.
1431 Q: All right. Did you return at some 2 point to the Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when was that? 5 A: The evening of the 6th. 6 Q: Do you recall what time on the 6th of 7 September, Mr. George, you would have came back to the -- 8 to the Park? 9 A: Around 7:00. 10 Q: Okay. And can you tell us how you 11 got there? 12 A: I -- from -- got there from Lucan or 13 got there from my house? 14 Q: Well, let's start with Lucan. 15 A: Well, I got a ride from my uncle and 16 his son, from Lucan to the -- to the base. 17 Q: Okay. And in coming to the base with 18 your uncle, I take it that's Roy Wakefield? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Can you tell us whether there 21 was anything that occurred on that, that stands out in 22 your mind? 23 A: There was a checkpoint just before 24 the gatehouse. One (1) police officer was standing on 25 the road and stopped us, and I believe one (1) or two (2)
1441 more came out of the ditch after we were stopped. 2 Q: I wonder if you could just explain 3 that to me. What do you mean, "came out of the ditch"? 4 They were standing in the ditch, were they? 5 A: They were hiding. I didn't see them 6 when we first pulled up. 7 Q: Okay. And you came to the -- 8 A: Across 21, along Army Camp Road. 9 Q: If you might just refer to the -- to 10 the diagram, P-40 on the screen. 11 A: We were coming up this way, Army Camp 12 Road and across 21 and then there was a checkpoint right 13 there, just before the gatehouse. 14 Q: Right before the main gate at the 15 intersection of 21 and Army Camp Road? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. There was one officer that 18 you'd indicated that was on the road? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you tell us how this individual 21 was dressed? 22 A: Baggy clothing. He had a rifle. 23 Q: Okay. Was this the same clothing 24 that you'd observed on the officers in the Park, the 25 three (3) or four (4) officers that you observed in the
1451 Park two (2) days previous? 2 A: No, they -- it looked more like Army 3 fatigue. 4 Q: Okay. Is there anything else about 5 this person that sticks out in your mind that you can 6 tell us about today? 7 A: No. 8 Q: The two (2) officers that you say 9 emerged from the ditch, what about them? Is there 10 anything that sticks out in your mind? 11 A: I just wondered why they were hiding 12 in the ditch. 13 Q: Was there a vehicle there as well? 14 A: I don't think so. 15 Q: All right. So I take it your uncle 16 stops. What happens? 17 A: They asked our names. And one (1) of 18 the officers reached in the back of the truck and picked 19 up my bag of clothes, and just let it go -- go back down, 20 dropped it. 21 Q: All right. Did they say anything to 22 you besides asking for your names? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. And you'd indicated that 25 the one officer had -- did you say -- did you say a
1461 rifle? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. What about the other two (2)? 4 First of all, can you tell us how they were -- how they 5 were attired, how were they dressed? 6 A: In Army baggy clothes. 7 Q: In the same fashion as the one you've 8 described earlier? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did they have any weapons apparent to 13 you? 14 A: I believe they had rifles, too. 15 Q: Okay. And aside from the generic 16 description of rifle, are you able to give us any detail 17 on that as to what make, model, that sort of thing? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did they do anything with these -- 20 with these rifles, other than simply holding? 21 A: They just held them. 22 Q: Okay. Are you aware, Mr. George, 23 whether there were any further checkpoints other than the 24 one that you've indicated on Army Camp Road or -- or 25 otherwise on the 6th of September, 1995?
1471 A: There was one further down the road 2 on Army Camp Road -- somewheres in this area here there 3 was another checkpoint. 4 Q: Okay. Would I be correct in saying 5 that it was somewhere to the south of Matheson Drive on 6 Army Camp Road? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And how was it that you knew that -- 9 how was it that you know that, Mr. George? 10 A: When I was heading down to the Park, 11 driving down to the Park parallel to Army Camp Road on 12 the dirt road. 13 Q: Inside -- inside the reserve? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. So when you're heading 16 down the road on the -- on the gravel road adjacent to 17 Army Camp Road? 18 A: I seen a spot checker, police 19 officers with a cruiser. 20 Q: Okay. Do you know how many police 21 officers with a cruiser that you would have seen at that 22 spot check? 23 A: Approximately two (2). 24 Q: After being dropped -- dropped off by 25 your uncle, at the built-up area, what's the next thing
1481 that happens, Mr. George? 2 A: I started looking around for my car 3 and found my car and headed down to the Park. 4 Q: And what car are we talking about? 5 A: Chrysler New Yorker or LeBaron. 6 Q: A Chrysler New Yorker? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So you went to the -- to the Park 9 after you located your car did you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you take the gravel road 12 adjacent to Army Camp Road from the built-up area to the 13 Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I take it you were driving your 16 vehicle, Mr. George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you have anybody with you? 19 A: I believe I had Al George with me. 20 Q: All right. And how -- how are you 21 related to Al George? 22 A: I'm not. 23 Q: I gather he's not from Stony Point is 24 he? 25 A: I believe he's from Oneida.
1491 Q: When you arrived at -- there's a 2 picture up on the screen, Mr. George. It comes from the 3 book of photos that's marked as Number 40 from P-24, do 4 you recognize that vehicle, Mr. George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And is that the vehicle that -- that 7 you owned in 1995, September? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when you arrived at the Park, Mr. 10 George, what time did you get to the Park, if you can 11 recall, approximately? 12 A: Approximately 7:30. 13 Q: All right. And what was going on 14 when -- when you arrived at approximately 7:30 at the 15 Park? 16 A: There was men, women and children 17 around. A couple of campfires. People cooking and 18 eating. It seemed fairly relaxed. 19 Q: Can you give us an estimate as to how 20 many men, women and children you seen around the Park 21 area? 22 A: About thirty (30). 23 Q: And you said there was a couple of 24 fires burning? 25 A: Yes.
1501 Q: And I'm just going to put a map of 2 the -- can you use that laser pointer first of all, Mr. 3 George, and indicate how it was that you came into the 4 Park? 5 A: I -- I don't remember exactly, it 6 could be one (1) of two (2) ways. Either this road or 7 this road. 8 Q: You're indicating the roads into the 9 Park either from the south near the maintenance -- 10 A: Shed. 11 Q: -- shed or the east where you'd 12 indicated earlier that you had initially entered. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the two (2) fires that you 15 noticed burning, where were they located? 16 A: I believe one (1) was around in this 17 area here and I think there was another one out here, 18 somewheres in that area. 19 Q: Okay. And for the purpose of the 20 record, the first fire you'd indicated is somewhere near 21 what has been identified for us earlier as the turnstile? 22 A: To the lakeside of the turnstile, 23 yes. 24 Q: Okay. And then secondly somewhere in 25 the vicinity of the Park store?
1511 A: Yeah, this side of the Park store. 2 Q: When you -- 3 A: Somewhere -- 4 Q: -- when you say "this side", which 5 side is that? To the -- the north side. 6 A: North side, yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Somewheres around in the parking lot 9 there. 10 Q: And what are these approximately 11 thirty (30) men, women and children doing. You said the 12 mood was fairly relaxed. 13 A: Yeah, just cooking hotdogs and 14 marshmallows around the fire and talking. 15 Q: Okay. Did you notice whether there 16 was a police presence at that time anywhere outside of 17 the Park area? 18 A: No. 19 Q: You didn't see any cruisers or -- 20 other than the -- the checkpoint that you had mentioned 21 earlier to the south of Matheson Drive? 22 A: Yeah, just the checkpoint and they 23 weren't visible anywhere else. 24 Q: Okay. And what about on the -- on 25 the lake side? Did you notice anything in the lake?
1521 A: Big -- big boat, a fair ways out the 2 lake. 3 Q: All right. And did you know who that 4 boat belonged to? 5 A: I assumed it was the OPP. 6 Q: Did you see any helicopters flying 7 around at that point in time, Mr. George? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Were you aware of any interaction 10 with the police that evening, either earlier that 11 evening? 12 A: I heard a story of occupiers -- 13 Q: Okay, so I gather you didn't see 14 anything in terms of any interaction with police at that 15 time then? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Right, just if I can for a moment 18 take you back to the 4th of September. 19 Were you aware of any or did you observe 20 any interaction with the police on that date, either 21 between Judas George or anybody in the group that you 22 accompanied in and the Ontario Provincial Police? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Right. And similarly, on the 6th of 25 September, once you arrived there at approximately 7:30,
1531 you didn't see any interaction with the police up to that 2 point? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You may have been told something 5 about that, but you have no direct evidence on that 6 point? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Mr. George, I understand that given 9 your background as a heavy equipment operator that you 10 had undertaking -- undertaken certain tasks, in and 11 around the Park area, is that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us what it was that 14 you were involved or engaged in doing in the Park area? 15 A: At what time? 16 Q: Well, I'm not sure at what time. 17 Just with respect to -- did you have occasion to operate 18 a tractor back hoe? 19 A: Yes, I had a tractor back hoe down 20 there. 21 Q: Can you tell us what it was that you 22 were doing with the tractor back hoe? 23 A: We moved some cement blocks along the 24 fence line so the police couldn't drive their cruisers 25 into the Park.
1541 Q: All right. And using the laser 2 pointer up on the -- up on the screen is the Park 3 diagram, where would these cement blocks be moved, Mr. 4 George? 5 A: This -- this is the fence line here? 6 Q: I'm assuming that is, yes. 7 A: Well right along that fence line 8 there. 9 Q: Okay. And how many blocks did you 10 move -- cement blocks did you move with the tractor back 11 hoe along that fence line? 12 A: Three (3) or four (4), about. 13 Q: Right. What else did you do, Mr. 14 George? 15 A: I -- I dug a hole at the end of the 16 fence line closest to the beach there. Piled the sand 17 beside it. 18 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of 19 that, Mr. George? 20 A: I -- in case somebody needs to keep 21 an eye on the beach for any OPP coming up. 22 Q: All right. And I take it that you 23 did these tasks at somebody's behest, that is somebody 24 asked you to do it or instructed you to do it? 25 A: Yes.
1551 Q: And can you tell us who it was that 2 asked you to do that? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 Q: All right. Can you recall for us, 5 Mr. George, when it was that you performed those tasks 6 you've just described for us? 7 A: I don't recall exactly when it was. 8 I think it was after Dudley was shot. 9 Q: Okay. Can you tell us whether it was 10 at night or in the daytime? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: Okay. You don't recall if it was 13 dark out when you were doing this? 14 A: I -- I think it was light out. 15 Q: And, again, just to be clear, you're 16 not sure if it was on the 6th or at some subsequent date? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: All right. 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just to correct the 20 record, Mr. Commissioner, the witness said it was after 21 Dudley George was shot. We know he was shot the night of 22 the 6th, so it had to be the 7th or later. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: I understand, Mr. George, when you
1561 were at your uncle Roy Wakefield's house that you had an 2 opportunity to watch TV there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you made certain observations and 5 you learned certain things about what was going on in the 6 area of -- of the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: What was it that you found out? 9 A: I don't re -- recall specifically 10 what it was. More and more police buildup, I remember 11 that. 12 Q: When you returned back to the Park, 13 Mr. George, did you have any -- what -- did you have any 14 expectations as to what might happen? 15 A: Not particularly. 16 Q: Okay. Did you expect, for example, 17 that there might be a confrontation with the police? 18 A: Yes, I -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 20 Jones? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 22 appreciate that for some portions of evidence it's 23 probably helpful to you and helpful to everyone to lead a 24 witness. But I believe that we're now on the evening of 25 September the 6th and I really object to leading
1571 questions about the 6th. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We -- we've 3 noted some leading questions and I think for this part 4 you should at least, try not to ask any leading 5 questions. If you do, I'm sure somebody will object. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I appreciate that as 7 well. And I would invite My Friends to remind me if I 8 should stray off those instructions, Mr. Commissioner. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: I take it, Mr. George, that you have 12 some recollection of testifying at your own trial in 13 1997; you were charged as a result of your involvement in 14 these events? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you did testify at your own 17 trial? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you testified as to what your 20 expectations were at that trial, in December of 1997; do 21 you recall that, Mr. George? 22 A: Somewhat. 23 Q: I have provided you with a transcript 24 of your testimony from that date. And for the -- the 25 assistance of My Friends, that is Inquiry Document
1581 1004977. And, Commissioner, it's at your Tab 15, and at 2 page 28 in particular. 3 Did you have occasion, Mr. George to read 4 -- to read that transcript? 5 A: I glanced over it, yes. 6 Q: Did it assist you at all in 7 refreshing your memory? 8 A: Very little. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 10 Jones? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. I -- again, Mr. 12 Commissioner, I think what will be helpful for us is to 13 know what this witness has in his mind today. If he 14 gives evidence about what he recalls. 15 If he needs some assistance in his 16 refreshing his memory about something, I'm sure, that no 17 one has any objection to assisting him in doing that by 18 looking at previous matters or if there are 19 inconsistencies. But he ought to be given a chance to 20 say what he recalls, at least, first. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 22 that's what Mr. Worme was doing. I'm not sure. What are 23 you -- isn't that what you're doing? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: I thought I had asked 25 him the question earlier whether he had any recollection
1591 of this. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And now 3 you're trying -- 4 MR. DONALD WORME: And I was simply to 5 ask him whether or not that assisted him. And perhaps I 6 misstated that. And I don't know if My Friend has any 7 further comment on that, but that -- that certainly was 8 the intention. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Carry 10 on. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: The question then was, is having read 14 the portion of that transcript that I've provided you, 15 did that assist you in refreshing your memory as to what 16 you had said at that time? 17 A: A little. 18 Q: Okay. And does that help you today 19 in terms of telling us what your recollection is about 20 any expectation you might have had when you came back to 21 the Park on that evening of September the 6th, 1995? 22 A: A little. 23 Q: Would you go ahead and tell us then? 24 A: Tell us what -- what am I telling 25 you?
1601 Q: Okay. What you had in your mind when 2 you came back to the Park? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 Q: Did you see Mr. Bernard George at any 5 point on the evening of the 6th of September, 1995, Mr. 6 George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And can you tell us when it was that 9 you seen him, if you can recall? 10 A: What time it was? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: Shortly after ten o'clock. 13 Q: Okay. And what if anything did -- 14 did you do with Mr. George or did you have a chance to 15 talk to Cecil Bernard George? 16 A: No, I didn't. He was talking with 17 others. 18 Q: Do you know whether he was there on - 19 - was he there at the time when you arrived at 20 approximately 7:30 on the 6th of September? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: Okay. But you would have seen him at 23 some -- some three (3) hours or so later; is that your -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- your recollection?
1611 A: Yes. 2 Q: And do you know whether or not he had 3 brought anything with him to the Park or whether he was 4 carrying anything? 5 A: I believe he brought a couple of 6 radios and maybe a scanner. 7 Q: Okay. And the purpose of these 8 radios or scanners, do you know what -- what the purpose 9 for those items were? 10 A: The scanner was to monitor the OPP. 11 Q: Okay. And why would you want to do 12 that, Mr. George? 13 A: To know if they were going to attack 14 us or not. 15 Q: All right. Now was that an 16 apprehension that you held on the 6th of September '95? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: In anticipation of this, did you do 19 anything, are you aware of anybody else doing anything? 20 That is you -- you had suggested a concern about being 21 attacked. Did you do anything as a result of that? 22 A: I don't think so, no. 23 Q: Okay. At some point in time, Mr. 24 George, are you aware of people that were in occupation 25 of the Park doing certain things like gathering rocks or
1621 sticks? 2 A: I don't know if that was before or if 3 that was after Dudley was shot. But there was gathering 4 of sticks and rocks, yes. 5 Q: Okay. Were you involved in that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. Tell us what happened -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Worme, 9 we've had some considerable evidence on some of these 10 from other witnesses. I think for this witness we should 11 just see what he knows and what he could say, I think. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: What is it that you can tell us that 17 happened next, Mr. George, that you can recall of that 18 day? 19 A: There was a couple of our guys down 20 East Parkway Drive that noticed the OPP marching towards 21 us. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: A number of them and they were 24 dressed with shields and helmets and clubs. 25 Q: When you say a couple of our guys
1631 were down East Parkway Drive, do you know who those were? 2 A: One (1) may have been Slippery and 3 I'm not sure who the other one was. 4 Q: And Slippery, we know, is Cecil 5 Bernard George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Right. You don't know who the other 8 is? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: All right. And they communicated to 11 you something, and what was that? 12 A: They're -- they're coming. They're 13 marching toward us. Something along that line. 14 Q: Go ahead, tell us what happens next. 15 A: They -- they were marching down the 16 road and started banging their batons on their shields as 17 they were marching. 18 Q: Okay. I'm going to draw your 19 attention to a diagram immediately behind you, Mr. 20 George. 21 I wonder if you could take a look at that 22 and tell us firstly if you recognize what that depicts? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Perhaps what you can do, 25 is if you want to take that hand held microphone there.
1641 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And if you could perhaps just 4 indicate where -- where you were at the time when you 5 heard somebody say, They're coming, they're coming. 6 A: I was -- I was -- I was roughly 7 around here. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 9 the mike is on. 10 THE WITNESS: I was roughly around here. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: That's better. Now we're going to 14 assume that that is a depiction of a -- of a fence line, 15 perhaps some bushes around it? Is that fair, Mr. George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And if I -- if -- I wonder if you 18 would just point again to the location where you 19 indicated that you were? 20 You're indicating the northernmost area of 21 that, towards the lake? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Were you inside or outside of that 24 fence? 25 A: A little of both.
1651 Q: Okay. So you would go back and 2 forth, is that -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Perhaps we can have that 5 diagram marked as an exhibit, Mr. Commissioner, and then 6 I would ask the witness if -- 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-112, your Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-112. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-112: "Stan" Thompson drawing 11 September 20/95 marked by 12 Witness Mr. Warren George 13 December 08/04 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Perhaps, Mr. George, you could take 17 the black felt marker there in front of you and if you 18 could put a number 1 at the location where you believe 19 you were when you heard the reports about they're coming. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Does that look like a "1"? 24 Q: Yeah, that's -- you covered a lot of 25 ground. All right, after you hear the report that
1661 they're coming, what happens next, Mr. George? 2 A: They were marching toward us, banging 3 on their shields and they came to the fence line of the 4 cottages and spread out across that, forming a line. 5 Q: I wonder if you would just put a 6 series of Xs there, Mr. George, as to where they spread 7 out, as you've termed it? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And can you tell us how many police 12 officers there were that were spread out in that area, 13 now that you've just marked with a series of Xs? Perhaps 14 you can put a number 2 beside those Xs if you would, 15 please? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Twenty (20), thirty (30). 20 Q: And can you tell us how they were 21 dressed? 22 A: Shields, helmets, boots, clubs. 23 Q: Okay. Can you give us any details 24 about any of those items you've just described for us? 25 The shields, how big were they?
1671 A: Three (3) or four (4) feet tall and a 2 couple of feet wide. 3 Q: All right. Go ahead. What else -- 4 what else -- you've described clubs. Can you describe 5 those? 6 A: The ASP batons -- retractable clubs. 7 Q: These are metal? 8 A: Yes. And tall boots, big boots 9 going up past their knees. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Looked like hockey shin pads. 12 Q: All right. Anything else? 13 A: Helmets with visors. 14 Q: Okay. The colour of this equipment? 15 A: Dark, dark coloured. 16 Q: Okay. Could you tell whether they 17 had any gloves on? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: Any forearm guards, to your 20 recollection? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: Anything over their chest areas? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: Was there anything in your 25 recollection, Mr. George, that would indicate that they
1681 were police officers? Were there any markings that said 2 "Police", for example? 3 A: I don't recall any, no. 4 Q: All right. Having spread out in the 5 formation that you've indicated in that location, where 6 were the other of the occupiers that you were with? 7 A: Do you want me to mark it on there? 8 Q: Yes, would you please...? 9 A: They were spread out along here. 10 Q: All right. You've -- you've put a 11 wavy line, perhaps you could just mark that with a "3", 12 would you please? 13 And you've indicated that they were spread 14 out along the area in the sandy parking lot outside of 15 the fence; is that fair? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And aside from the -- did you 18 say thirty (30) or so officers, did you see any more and 19 were there any vehicles or any such thing that they might 20 have been accompanied by? 21 A: There was more -- more officers 22 behind the -- the front line officers that didn't have 23 the -- their riot squad outfits. 24 Q: And where were those other officers 25 that didn't have the riot squad outfits?
1691 A: Behind the -- behind the officers 2 with the riot squad outfits. 3 Q: Okay. So they were immediately 4 behind them? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that would account for the number 7 of, I think you said approximate thirty (30), so that 8 would include both those that were attired in riot gear-- 9 A: Yes, yes. 10 Q: -- and those that were not? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And in terms of the 13 occupiers that you've marked with a number 3, in the 14 sandy parking lot on the outside of the fence, how many 15 people were there, approximately? 16 A: A dozen or so. 17 Q: Okay. And of that dozen or so of the 18 occupiers who were in the sandy parking lot, did anybody 19 have anything in their hands? 20 Let me start with you. Did you have 21 anything in your hands? Were you carrying anything? 22 A: Not at first, but after I had rocks. 23 Q: Okay. Do you know if at first 24 anybody else was carrying anything or had anything in 25 their hands, to your recollection?
1701 A: May have had sticks, sticks in their 2 hands. 3 Q: Okay. And was anything being said as 4 between the occupiers who you've marked there and the 5 police officers who you've also indicated their 6 formation? 7 A: Bernard was trying to tell them 8 something. 9 Q: And what was Bernard trying to tell 10 them? 11 A: More or less trying to tell them to 12 leave us alone and... 13 Q: Okay. And this is something that you 14 heard...? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Did you see him when you 17 indicate that he was trying to tell them something? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And where was he when he 20 was trying to tell them something? 21 A: About here. 22 Q: Okay. Perhaps we can mark that as a 23 "4". And could you tell whether he anything in his hands 24 when he was trying to tell them something? 25 A: I don't recall.
1711 Q: All right. Go ahead, Mr. George. 2 What happens next? 3 A: An officer standing up on the hill 4 here, ordered a punch-out. 5 Q: Perhaps you can just mark that and we 6 will put a "5" beside that. Now we've had that described 7 in various ways, including a grassy knoll and I 8 understand that there's a hydro pole somewhere in that 9 location as well...? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And is that the area that this 12 officer was standing? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Can you describe that officer to us 15 firstly? 16 A: He was dressed in regular police 17 uniform, didn't have the riot outfit on. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I believe he had a flashlight in his 20 hand. 21 Q: Go ahead. Anything else...? 22 A: Not that I recall. 23 Q: All right. And you had said 24 something that this person seemed to be giving orders? 25 A: Yes.
1721 Q: All right. And you mentioned the 2 word, punch-out; tell me about that. 3 A: They would run -- run ahead for about 4 fifteen (15) feet and stop. 5 Q: Okay. Do you want to give me some 6 more detail on that? When you say, They, I'm assuming 7 you mean the police? 8 A: The -- the front line officers that I 9 marked here in the Xs. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: With the riot -- riot outfits on. 12 Q: And approximately how many of those 13 officers were there? 14 A: Approximately twenty (20). 15 Q: Okay. And when you -- you heard the 16 order given, Punch-out...? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And describe for us again in -- in 19 some detail if you would, please, Mr. George, what would 20 happen upon the issuance of that order? 21 A: The officers that were lined up in 22 the front would run ahead fifteen (15) feet and stop. 23 Q: Okay. And what would the occupiers 24 do when these officers would run up and then stop? 25 A: Began grabbing rocks and throwing
1731 rocks and whatever we could find at them. 2 Q: Okay. Did anybody of the occupiers 3 retreat back to the inside of the fence at -- at any 4 point in time, to your knowledge? 5 A: Some -- some may of, yes. 6 Q: All right. Did you? 7 A: At one time, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And when the order was given 9 to punch out and these officers would run forward, was 10 there any contact as between those officers equipped in 11 the riot gear and the -- and the occupiers? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What would happen? 14 A: They would -- clubs, try and club I 15 guess. 16 Q: They would try and club? Who -- who 17 would try and club, Mr. George? 18 A: All -- all the above, whoever was 19 there. 20 Q: All right. Perhaps you can take your 21 -- your chair again. Do you recall, Mr. George, how many 22 such orders you might have heard to punch out? 23 A: At least two (2), maybe three (3). 24 Q: And on each occasion, Mr. George, 25 would that activity occur, that is to say that the police
1741 officers dressed in the riot gear would run forward; is 2 that your language? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. As they were running forward, 5 would they be doing anything or saying anything? 6 A: They may have been tapping on their 7 shields with their ass batons. 8 Q: They may have been tapping on their 9 shields? 10 A: May have, yeah. 11 Q: All right. I gather from that 12 response you're not exactly sure; is that fair? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And on each of these 15 occasions, the two (2) or maybe three (3) times when the 16 order was given and they would come forward, you said 17 that there was then clubbing on both sides? 18 A: Yes. And whoever didn't back up when 19 they ran forward would be overrun. 20 Q: All right. Would you get overrun, 21 Mr. George? 22 A: No. I kept my distance from them. 23 Q: All right. Would that mean that as 24 they came forward you retreated? 25 A: Yes.
1751 Q: You talked about throwing some rocks 2 earlier; when did that occur, Mr. George? 3 A: Around the first punch out. 4 Q: Okay. And what did you do 5 specifically? 6 A: I ran and got rocks and threw them at 7 them. 8 Q: Where did you -- where did you run to 9 to get the rocks to throw at them? 10 A: The sandy parking lot. 11 Q: Okay. So right around the area that 12 you were in? 13 A: Yeah. Where my car was and around in 14 that area, yes. 15 Q: All right. Where was you car by the 16 way? 17 A: Just inside of the fence there. 18 Q: And is there sufficient room on that 19 -- on the diagram 112, P-112 behind you, to indicate 20 where your vehicle was? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I wonder if you would go ahead and 23 use the marker there and just indicate where that was. 24 You can mark that with a "6", if you would, please. I 25 just want to, before we move away from this point, Mr. --
1761 Mr. George, you had indicated a number 5 what is -- I 2 believe that it is marked on the diagram as a sandpile? 3 A: Yes. Yes. 4 Q: Do you know whether that sandpile was 5 in fact there on the 6th of September or not; is that 6 something that you can recall for us today, Mr. George? 7 A: I remember piling sand there with a 8 tractor backhoe but I don't know which day it was. 9 Q: Okay. And is it possible, sir, that 10 -- well, we'll just leave that for now. Let me take you 11 back to your vehicle, that you've marked with a number 6. 12 When did you put your vehicle there? 13 A: As soon as I went down the Park, 14 about 7:30 that night. 15 Q: Okay. So you left your vehicle 16 there, you didn't move it at any point in time up to 17 then? 18 A: Not that I recall. I don't recall. 19 Q: And was there a reason for putting it 20 in that particular position? And I gather the -- the 21 arrow that you've drawn is the front -- depicts the front 22 end of your vehicle? 23 A: Yes. So I could shine the lights 24 down the road to see if anybody was coming. 25 Q: All right. Other than your
1771 headlights, was there any other light that would have 2 illuminated the area? 3 A: There was a spotlight coming out -- 4 used off of my car. 5 Q: Okay. And who was operating the 6 spotlight that was used off of your car? 7 A: Gabrielle, Gabe Doxtator. 8 Q: Any other light besides that to your 9 recollection? 10 A: There may have been another 11 spotlight. I'm not exactly sure on that. 12 Q: You'd mentioned that there were about 13 thirty (3) men, women and children in the Park when you 14 first arrived there at 7:30, or approximately 7:30. 15 Can you tell us if at that point in time 16 that -- where the police were in the formation you'd 17 described and the occupiers were lined up along the fence 18 in the sandy parking lot, whether there were women among 19 those -- those group of occupiers? 20 A: There could have been. 21 Q: I take it from that, you're not sure. 22 A: No, I'm not. 23 Q: What about children? You'd mentioned 24 there were children there earlier? 25 A: Yes.
1781 Q: Were there children present at that 2 point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you know if they were also 5 lined up in the -- in the formation of the occupiers that 6 you've described and marked as number 3 on that exhibit? 7 A: I don't believe they were, no. 8 Q: Do you recall if at any point prior 9 to that event occurring, Mr. George, was there any 10 discussion about whether it was a good idea or not for 11 the women and children to be present? 12 A: Yeah. They'd fear they should go 13 tonight. 14 Q: And who figured they should go 15 tonight? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: And I gather from what you've told us 18 that at least some children were not -- did not leave the 19 area? 20 A: Just one that I can think of, It was 21 Leland. 22 Q: That would be Leland? 23 A: George. The one that was on the bus. 24 Q: Also known as Leland White, am I 25 right?
1791 A: I guess so. I never heard him be 2 called that before. 3 Q: All right. So as -- as the police 4 officers would come forward the two (2) or three (3) 5 times, Mr. George, that there would be an altercation, 6 that there would be clubbing back and forth, and those 7 people that were overrun, what would happen to them? 8 A: They would be clubbed or arrested I 9 guess. 10 Q: To your knowledge was anybody 11 arrested? 12 A: Just one. 13 Q: And who was that? 14 A: Cecil Bernard George. 15 Q: I wonder if you could tell us about 16 that if you know what happened? 17 A: He was trying to tell the police to 18 leave us alone and a punch out was ordered and they ran 19 past him and started kicking and clubbing him. 20 Q: Okay. And when you say they started, 21 who are you describing? 22 A: The OPP. 23 Q: And how many of them were doing the 24 kicking and clubbing? 25 A: Four (4) to six (6) people.
1801 Q: And what happens after that? 2 A: After Bernard was being beat, he was 3 dragged to the back of the crowd behind the -- the riot 4 squad members. 5 Q: Okay. Did you see who it was that 6 was dragging Bernard George. 7 A: Police. Police officers. 8 Q: Okay. And as he was being dragged by 9 police officers, what's happening? 10 A: Someone yelled out, we need the bus, 11 we need the bus. 12 Q: Okay. As he was being dragged, did 13 you see how he was being dragged, first of all? 14 A: I -- sort of. It looked like he was 15 being dragged by the back of his hair, but it could have 16 been from the back of his collar or something. 17 Q: Okay. So I'm assuming that, perhaps, 18 he was face down? Is that -- is that your recollection? 19 A: At times, yes, yes. 20 Q: Okay. And how far back of the front 21 line was Bernard George dragged? 22 A: I only seen for a short distance and 23 then I went -- went for my car. 24 Q: Okay. I wonder if you might just 25 refer to the map behind you and where was it that you
1811 would have seen Bernard George dragged to before you went 2 for your car? Perhaps you would be good enough to mark 3 that, as well, with a "7". 4 A: Somewhere towards this way here. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Just for the purposes of our record, 9 Mr. George, you said something as you were making that 10 mark? 11 A: Somewheres towards this direction. 12 Q: Okay. And you're pointing towards 13 the direction of East Parkway Drive? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you see him actually reach the -- 16 the paved area, that is the tarmac, what it's been 17 referred to as? 18 A: No. 19 Q: So he was still in the sandy parking 20 lot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you had described him being 23 clubbed and -- and kicked earlier, did that -- 24 A: He was curled up in a ball as he was 25 being kicked and clubbed.
1821 Q: And as he was being dragged, did that 2 kicking and clubbing stop, to your observation? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Go ahead, Mr. George, what happens 8 next? You had said that somebody had called for 9 something. What was it that you heard? 10 A: Something like, we need the bus, we 11 need the bus, they got Slippery. 12 Q: Do you know who said, we need the 13 bus, we need the bus, they got Slippery? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: Okay. Was the clubbing back and 16 forth still going on when -- when you heard this, we need 17 the bus? 18 A: He was out of sight by then. 19 Q: Okay. But was the clubbing back and 20 forth between the riot equipped -- riot gear equipped 21 police officers and the occupiers -- 22 A: It may have -- may have been. What-- 23 Q: Was that still going on when you 24 heard, we need the bus? 25 A: I -- I don't know.
1831 Q: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. George, tell us 2 what happens from there. 3 A: I ran for my car and Gabe was holding 4 a spotlight, and I said I need the car, I need the car, 5 get the light. And the cord from the spotlight wrapped 6 around the mirror, so I had to play with that a little 7 bit and I got my car and followed the bus out through the 8 gate. 9 Q: All right. Mr. Commissioner, I'm 10 wondering if this might be an appropriate spot to break. 11 We want to see if we can fix just a small technical 12 difficulty that might be able to speed things up this 13 afternoon. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 15 fifteen (15) minute recess. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 17 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 18 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 15:24 21 --- Upon resuming at 15:42 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 24 Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, Mr.
1841 Commissioner. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: Mr. George, you were describing for 5 us the various activities of the police officers and the 6 activities of the occupiers after certain orders were 7 given, specifically orders to punch out, that the police 8 would come forward, that there would be clubbing back and 9 forth and at some point in time, I think you'd indicated 10 there was at least two (2) orders to punch out, perhaps 11 three (3)? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that at some point in time you 14 observed Cecil Bernard George being dragged away? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And someone had yelled for the bus? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Right. Can you just take it from 19 there, Mr. George, and tell us what happens from there? 20 A: I -- I went for my car after I heard 21 someone yell for the bus and Gabe was holding a spotlight 22 out of my car, and I told them I gotta -- I need the car. 23 Then I got in my car and backed it up and followed the 24 bus through the gate. 25 Q: So the bus went through the gate
1851 before you? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: If you could just indicate on the 4 map, behind you, and perhaps put -- just where -- just 5 where the gate is without marking the map. 6 A: Right there, that's already marked, 7 it says, Gate. 8 Q: All right. And the bus went ahead of 9 you...? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And where did the bus go, Mr. George? 12 A: Down East Parkway Drive. 13 Q: Okay. And how far down East Parkway 14 Drive did the bus go? 15 A: Approximately to the first driveway 16 on the right. 17 Q: And is that indicated on that diagram 18 behind you which you've marked as '112'? 19 A: It says: Driveway No. 6842. 20 Q: Would you just point to that, please. 21 All right. And I'm going to suggest to you that there is 22 another driveway just behind the area that you marked 23 with a number '7'. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Is that a driveway?
1861 A: Yes. 2 Q: So, would you be -- would I be 3 correct in saying that the bus went up to the second 4 driveway then? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Did your car go that 7 distance as well? Did you drive up -- yes, you've told 8 us you were following the bus; did you ever -- 9 A: Just -- just before the second 10 driveway, that's about as far as I went. 11 Q: All right. I wonder if you could 12 maybe just take that felt marker again and if you can 13 indicate position of the bus, as far as you would have 14 seen it going, and then the position of the car as far as 15 you advanced your vehicle. 16 A: The furthest point they advanced...? 17 Q: Yes. And you can mark with a Number 18 '8', the bus. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: So you marked with a Number '9', the 24 -- your vehicle, Mr. George? 25 A: Yes.
1871 Q: And it seems to be pointed directly, 2 well almost into the driveway that you've identified for 3 us...? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Go ahead and tell us what 6 happens at that point. First of all, can you tell us how 7 fast the bus was going when it exited the Park? 8 A: Less than 10 kilometres. 9 Q: Per hour...? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And on exiting the Park, 12 do you know whether the bus came into contact with 13 anything? 14 A: It may have had to push at a large 15 garbage dumpster that was blocking the gateway. 16 Q: It may have...? I gather you didn't 17 see anything like that? 18 A: I caught a glimpse of him pushing on 19 it, but it -- it wasn't rolling out of the way, so I -- 20 some of the occupiers helped and rolled the dumpster out 21 of the way. 22 Q: Okay. And you followed the bus...? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What was the purpose of your -- 25 getting your car? What was the purpose, first of all,
1881 when somebody said "We need the bus"? 2 A: To try and help -- try and help 3 Slippery, or Bernard. 4 Q: Right. And what was your purpose in 5 getting your vehicle and following the bus? 6 A: I wasn't exactly sure on that. 7 Q: Okay. What speed were you 8 travelling, Mr. George, when you left the Park with your 9 car? 10 A: I wouldn't say more than 20 11 kilometres an hour. 12 Q: Okay. I take it from that you're 13 driving faster than the bus? 14 A: Not very; roughly the same speed. 15 Q: And I -- the police officers that -- 16 that you had drawn in formation and marked with a Number 17 2, I gather they would have moved, did they? 18 A: They were backing down East Parkway 19 Drive, walking backwards. 20 Q: Walking backwards? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: Go ahead. What happens as they're 23 walking backwards down East Parkway Drive? 24 A: I followed the bus out and to the 25 pavement and they seen a crowd of officers where I
1891 assumed Slippery would be. And I headed towards them and 2 an officer stepped in front of me and pointed a gun at 3 me. 4 I turned the wheels to the right and 5 stepped on the brakes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And hit -- hit a number of officers 8 and knocked a couple, few of them down, and backed up and 9 started backing up. 10 Q: At what point in time, Mr. George, 11 did you hit a couple of officers and knock them down? Is 12 that the location that you drove -- drew and marked 13 number 9 on P-112 behind you? 14 A: Yeah, that's when I stopped. 15 Q: You indicated that you turned your 16 wheel to the right and that therefore the direction that 17 you drew your vehicle in? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: And -- 21 Q: The officer that drew his weapon and 22 pointed it at you, what happened? 23 A: He started shooting at me. 24 Q: And what did you do? 25 A: Reversed and cranked my wheel to the
1901 right to distract him with my front bumper to -- from 2 shooting at me. 3 Q: Okay. How many times were you shot 4 at by that officer, to your recollection, Mr. George? 5 A: Four (4) or five (5) times. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: From that officer. 8 Q: And can you tell us what happens 9 next? 10 A: I was backing up and I heard a lot 11 more shots go off. I was kneeled -- my elbow on the 12 middle of the seat and one (1) hand on the steering 13 wheel. 14 I backed up to the edge of the pavement in 15 the sandy parking lot and stopped and waited for the bus. 16 I could hear gears grinding, like he was trying to get it 17 in reverse. So I waited til he started to back up and 18 then I could feel my tire going flat, losing traction. 19 So I knew I had to get back into the Park. 20 I backed into the Park and parked my car. 21 Q: All right. While you were in the 22 car, Mr. George, and you were being fired upon, was there 23 any damage to your vehicle that you were aware of at that 24 point? 25 A: The driver wind -- driver window
1911 shattered. 2 Q: Okay. And in relation to observing 3 the officer with his weapon pointed at you, at what point 4 in time did your window shatter? 5 A: While I was reversing. 6 Q: Okay. And do you know whether it was 7 gunfire that shattered your window? 8 A: I -- 9 Q: Do you have any idea? 10 A: I assumed it was. 11 Q: All right. And do you -- 12 A: When I -- when I knocked down three 13 (3) or four (4) of the officers a few of them clubbed my 14 hood with their ASP batons. 15 Q: Go ahead. 16 A: And then I started backing up and 17 that's when the firing started. 18 Q: Okay. Hmm hmm. As you're driving 19 backwards, you indicated you heard more gunfire. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: How many shots did you hear in total, 22 Mr. George? 23 A: It sounded like a pack of 24 firecrackers going off. 25 Q: Okay.
1921 A: So a number of them. 2 Q: Can you provide us with an estimate 3 today? Do you have any recollection as to what that 4 might be? 5 A: A real rough estimate would be twenty 6 (20) or thirty (30). 7 Q: Okay. When you travelled back into 8 the parking lot, how fast were you going then? 9 A: No faster than I travelled out of the 10 parking lot. 11 Q: And as you were travelling out, you 12 indicated maybe twenty (20) kilometres per hour? 13 A: Approximately, yes. 14 Q: All right. And as you're travelling 15 out of the parking lot toward the place where you 16 indicated you came to rest, did you see Bernard George at 17 any time? 18 A: I thought I had a glimpse of him 19 being dragged towards a paddy-wagon. 20 Q: Okay. And that was the group of 21 officers that you've indicated you then drove towards -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- assuming that they had him? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I see. Could you see what Bernard
1931 George was doing at that point in time, as you were 2 driving toward him, or whether -- what he was doing, if 3 anything? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. As you were driving 6 toward this crowd of officers, can you estimate for us 7 firstly how many officers might have been -- might have 8 been there, that you were driving toward? 9 A: In this crowd, roughly a dozen. 10 Q: Okay. Did you have your headlights 11 on or off; if you can recall? 12 A: I believe I had my headlights on. 13 Q: Okay. All right. You indicated that 14 you were leaning to your -- to your right; is that right? 15 A: Yes, to the centre of the car. 16 Q: Okay. And the purpose for that was? 17 A: To avoid being shot. 18 Q: Okay. And as you were leaning over 19 to the centre of -- of your vehicle, could you see out of 20 your windshield? 21 A: Yes, I could see overtop of the 22 dashboard. 23 Q: All right. And being able to do that 24 then, you were able to observe the officer that was 25 shooting at you?
1941 A: Yes. 2 Q: Mr. George, is there a distinction in 3 your mind between fifteen (15) miles per hour and twenty 4 (20) kilometres per hour? 5 A: I'm not exactly sure. I usually go 6 by the -- the new stuff there. 7 Q: Kilometres? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And the reason that you - 10 - that you stopped and cranked your wheel to the right 11 was why? 12 A: To avoid being shot. 13 Q: All right. The gunfire that you 14 heard that sounded like a pack of firecrackers, Mr. 15 George, how long did that go on? 16 A: Fifteen (15), twenty (20) seconds. 17 Q: Okay. And as the -- the officer is 18 pointing his weapon at you and -- and fires, could you 19 see the muzzle flash of that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Mr. George, did you have a -- a 22 firearm in your vehicle when you came out of the Park? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. To your knowledge, was 25 there a firearm in the bus at all?
1951 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And just to be clear, to your 3 knowledge, were there firearms among any of the occupiers 4 in the Park on that day? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Or in the days previous? 7 A: No. 8 Q: As you began to back your vehicle up, 9 did the shooting stop? 10 A: Maybe when I almost reached the sandy 11 parking lot or the paved shoulder. 12 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us, Mr. 13 George, that the reason to go out of there was to try to 14 intervene on behalf of Cecil Bernard George -- No? All 15 right. 16 Well, let me -- let me ask you this. Did 17 you -- what was your intention in terms of going out in 18 your vehicle, Mr. George? 19 A: To try and help Slippery. 20 Q: All right. To try and help Slippery 21 do what? 22 A: Get away from the police. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps My Friends 24 wish to say something, Mr. Commissioner. I -- I know if 25 we look at the record, it seems to me that it was his
1961 evidence earlier. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 3 think there's anything wrong with what you've done up 4 until now. If somebody wants to object, they can. But I 5 think you should carry on with -- 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, Mr. 7 Commissioner. 8 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Just -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're 10 going to get some objections. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, my 12 understanding of this witness' evidence, was he was asked 13 why the bus went out and he had an answer for that. And 14 then he was asked why he went out, -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why...? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and he said, I 17 really don't know. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you're 19 right. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: And so, he actually 21 said his view, and so to suggest something else to him as 22 though it was his evidence and get him to confirm it, 23 again, is a problem, when you're asking a witness what he 24 recalls and what his own evidence is. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He did say
1971 that. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: I think My Friend, Ms. 3 Jones, is absolutely right, and I do apologize for that. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: Perhaps I can draw your attention to 7 some documents that had been provided to you, Mr. 8 George... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: Mr. George, you gave a statement to 14 the SIU in September 9th, of 1997, and it has been 15 disclosed as Inquiry Document, Mr. Commissioner, 1005694; 16 you'll find that at Tab 8 in the binder of materials 17 before you. 18 Mr. George, you had an opportunity to 19 review that statement that you provided at that time to 20 the SIU...? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I wonder if you could just refer to 23 that in your materials there, -- 24 A: This one here...? 25 Q: -- and confirm for me whether or not
1981 that is the document that you had reviewed. You can find 2 that at Tab 8. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is that a -- is that a document 5 that is familiar to you? Do you acknowledge making that 6 statement to a Mr. Kennedy of the Special Investigation 7 Unit on the 9th of September, 1997? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You were in the company of others 10 during this, a one (1) Jim Kennedy and a Bob Muir 11 (phonetic) ? 12 A: I believe so, yes. 13 Q: You had a chance to read that, Mr. -- 14 Mr. George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And if I can refer you to the second 17 page of that, at the bottom of that page you gave a 18 response to Officer Kennedy in connection with his 19 question as to why you drove a car into the police 20 officers; do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You gave a response to Mr. Kennedy on 23 that date; do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And does that help you today in terms
1991 of assisting or refreshing your memory, as to -- as to 2 what your intention was in leaving the Park? 3 A: A little, yes. 4 Q: Okay. And what was your intention, 5 Mr. George, on leaving the Park? 6 A: To try and help Bernard. 7 Q: After you got your vehicle back into 8 the Park, I think you indicated you waited at the edge of 9 the sandy parking lot...? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Outside of the fence, in order to 12 wait for the bus...? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You hear the bus gears grinding, I 15 think you've indicated...? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And because your tire was going flat 18 you moved back into the Park? Is that what I understand 19 to be your testimony? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. What happens once you get 22 back in the Park, Mr. George? 23 A: I assessed the damage to my car. 24 Q: What kind of damage did you see on 25 your car, Mr. George?
2001 A: Some bullet holes, a smashed window, 2 and a flat tire. 3 Q: Do you recall today, sir, how many 4 bullet holes you might have observed on your vehicle? 5 A: Six (6) or seven (7). 6 Q: Okay. I take it those bullet holes 7 weren't there when you exited the Park...? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Did you see the -- the 10 police at that point when you were assessing the damage 11 on your vehicle? 12 A: They were retreating down East 13 Parkway Drive. 14 Q: You told us earlier that they were 15 retreating, walking backwards; was this the same thing? 16 A: I don't know if they were still 17 walking backwards or not. I don't think so. 18 Q: Did you leave the Park at all, Mr. 19 George, that -- that night? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. Did you leave the Park at some 22 point? 23 A: 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. 24 Q: Okay. At some point in time, Mr. 25 George, did you hear about who had been -- whether there
2011 was any injuries, first of all, from the confrontation 2 that you've described for us. 3 A: We heard Dudley died around one 4 o'clock or so. 5 Q: Okay. Anything else, Mr. George? 6 A: That I heard? 7 Q: Yeah, about any -- any other injuries 8 that may have been sustained -- 9 A: Oh, and -- 10 Q: -- in this confrontation? 11 A: Nick -- Nicholas may have had some 12 bullets in him, Nicholas Cottrelle. 13 Q: Right. Is that it? 14 A: That's -- yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And as a result of -- of 16 hearing this news, what did the occupiers do, if 17 anything? 18 A: Burnt the Park store down. 19 Q: Did you participate in that, Mr. 20 George? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: What did you do? 23 A: I threw a gas bomb on it. 24 Q: Did you return to the barracks at any 25 point after that?
2021 A: About 4:00 or five o'clock in the 2 morning. 3 Q: All right. And having returned to 4 the barracks, did you leave the barracks? 5 A: Not for a while, no. 6 Q: Why was that? 7 A: Fear of the police, I suppose. 8 Q: Okay. I'm going to show you a series 9 of photographs, Mr. George, which we will put up on the 10 screen. You have a book of photos there in front of you 11 and they've been marked as P-24 in these proceedings, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 In that booklet of photographs, marked as 14 MAG Number 1, do you recognize that depiction in that 15 photograph, Mr. George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And tell us what it is? 18 A: It looks like you're looking down 19 East Parkway Drive towards the Park. 20 Q: Towards the MNR Park? 21 A: Yeah, yeah. 22 Q: MNR parking lot, pardon me. 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2031 Q: I'm informed by -- by Mr. Millar that 2 that, in fact, might be looking toward the Park from East 3 Parkway Drive. 4 A: That's what I said, isn't it. That's 5 what I meant, anyway. 6 Q: Okay, thank you. Can we go to the 7 next one? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Do you recognize that, Mr. George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I'm going -- I'm going to draw your 14 attention to what appears to be a sand pile next to the 15 hydro pole there. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you see that? 18 A: Area here? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Perhaps we can go to another -- the 22 next photo and we may get a better shot of that. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2041 Q: That sand pile right there, I'm going 2 to suggest to you, Mr. George, is the same one from the 3 previous photograph. Do you see that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And can you tell us today, 6 sir, whether or not you recall that sand pile being there 7 when you exited the Park? 8 A: I don't believe it was there. I 9 believe I put it there afterwards -- after Dudley was 10 shot, with the tractor back hoe. 11 Q: Okay. Having said that, and 12 returning your attention back to the map right behind you 13 that's marked as P-112, you put a number 5 to indicate 14 where an officer was standing who was giving orders to 15 punch out. 16 And if I'm not mistaken, you put that 17 number 5 on top of the sand pile. 18 A: Yeah, it's a little bit more closer 19 to the -- to the hydro pole. 20 Q: Okay. Perhaps you can take that 21 marker and if you would make that amendment then, please, 22 as to where you think the -- the officer that was giving 23 the orders was standing. Okay. 24 A: Number 5 still, or what? 25 Q: Yes. And just put a line through the
2051 previous marking you made there. Thank you. Okay, next. 2 That I -- do you recognize that, Mr. George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that is what? 5 A: Looking from the Park down East 6 Parkway Drive. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Do you recognize that picture at all, 12 Mr. George? 13 A: Yes. It looks like you're looking 14 from East Parkway Drive down Army Camp Road. 15 Q: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: There's a cement block in the middle 20 of this photograph which is marked as number 13, Mr. 21 George, do you -- do you recognize that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did -- did you have anything to 24 do with that cement block being there? 25 A: I think I put it there.
2061 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: There's a cement block in -- in 4 photograph number 18, Mr. George, do you recognize that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you tell us where that is 7 located, whether you had anything to do with that being 8 there? 9 A: I believe I put it there, and it's in 10 front of the arbour that was built for Dudley. 11 Q: And the gate that is depicted in 12 that? 13 A: That's the gate I drove my car 14 through. 15 Q: And that's the gate that the bus 16 would have come through as well? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: The sandpile on the right-hand side 19 of the photograph, Mr. George, is that the sandpile 20 you've indicated that you built? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And the reason for those 23 -- for those there, the -- the cement block as well as 24 the sandpile? 25 A: In case the police or the army guys
2071 were going to come back. 2 Q: Thank you for that, Mr. George. You 3 indicated a bus, Mr. George, does that look familiar to 4 you at all? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: You've identified this earlier, Mr. 10 George, as your vehicle? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. You had told us something, Mr. 13 George, about the officers that you came into contact 14 with with your vehicle, striking your vehicle? 15 A: Yeah. I believe those were from the 16 ass batons. 17 Q: Okay. And there's a number of dents 18 on the -- what would appear to be the hood of your 19 vehicle; that's what you're referring to; is it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: That's another shot of your vehicle,
2081 Mr. George, from the passenger side? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Which wheel went flat? Which tire? 4 A: I believe it was the back driver 5 side. 6 Q: All right, go ahead. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Was the -- I notice that your light 11 is broken out on that. Do you know if that occurred then 12 or at some other time? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: That is from the passenger side, Mr. 19 George, there are -- is there anything about that, that 20 you can tell us about today? Driver's side, pardon me. 21 A: That's the window that was blown out, 22 in the driver's door. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2091 Q: And photograph number 45, Mr. George, 2 I wonder if you would just take the laser pointer there 3 and -- 4 A: These are the bullet holes from the - 5 - the officer with the handgun that was standing in the 6 middle of the roadway. 7 Q: You're indicating the front quarter 8 panel and the driver -- on the driver's side as well as 9 the driver's door? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. How many do you count there, 12 sir? 13 A: Five (5) right there. There was a 14 grazed one right there. 15 Q: All right. All right. Photograph 16 number 46 is another depiction of those bullet holes and 17 the -- and the graze mark that you've indicated? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Forty-seven (47), again, is a further 24 depiction, indicating the five (5) bullet holes -- 25 A: Yes.
2101 Q: Four (4) bullet holes and one (1), to 2 be technically correct, one (1) glancing shot, if I can 3 put it that way? 4 A: I believe that was his last one, 5 judging by the angle. His last shot. 6 Q: And this is a close-up of the one (1) 7 into the driver's door? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Photograph number 48? Okay. Mr. 10 George, as a result of your involvement and particularly 11 the involvement of driving your vehicle out towards the 12 police officers, and coming into contact with them, you 13 were charged with a variety of criminal offences; that is 14 correct, sir? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You were ultimately convicted of 17 criminal negligence, causing bodily harm? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: That would have been in April of 1998 20 at the Court in Sarnia, Ontario? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And for that particular conviction, 23 you were given a six (6) month sentence as well as 24 prohibited from driving for two (2) years. 25 A: Yes.
2111 Q: Concurrent with that conviction, you 2 were also convicted with assault with a weapon. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you were given a six (6) month 5 concurrent sentence for that. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: As well as prohibited from possessing 8 any firearm ammunition or explosive substances for a 9 period of ten (10) years. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Of that six (6) month sentence, sir, 12 how long did you serve, where did you serve that? 13 A: Four (4) months, part of it in 14 Sarnia, and one (1) night in Hamilton, and the rest in 15 Guelph. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Aside from those two (2) convictions, 20 do you have any other entries on your criminal record, 21 Mr. George, prior to that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Mr. George, is there anything further 24 that you can tell us that you think might be important 25 that I haven't canvassed with you, in -- in your
2121 examination here? 2 A: Not that I can recall. 3 Q: Is there anything, sir, that you 4 would wish to add, perhaps your observation as to how 5 this might have been prevented? 6 A: The government could have returned 7 the land. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Okay. Those are all 9 the questions that I have, Mr. Commissioner, of this 10 witness. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps it might be a 13 moment where the other Counsel could be canvassed as to 14 the amount of time that they might take. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I am 16 going to do that. Do you have a copy? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Anybody who 19 intends to cross-examine this witness, please stand up. 20 Thank you very much. On behalf of the Estate of Dudley 21 George, how long do you think? 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Five (5) to ten 23 (10) minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 25 sorry...?
2131 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Five (5) to ten 2 (10) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any other 4 Aboriginal? No...? Okay. Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thirty (30) to 6 forty-five (45) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thirty (30) 8 to forty-five (45) minutes. Ms. Jones...? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Two (2) hours. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) 11 hours. Mr. Downard...? 12 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Reserve half an hour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an 14 hour. And Mr. Sulman...? 15 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Perhaps ten (10) 16 minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 18 can adjourn for the day now. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner, we 20 would start tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Start 22 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock and we should be able to 23 complete the cross-examination tomorrow. And we're not 24 calling any more witnesses. So whenever we finish, 25 that's it for the day, for the week.
2141 MR. DERRY MILLAR: For the day. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For the 3 term. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 5 Mr. George. You will have to come back tomorrow morning 6 at nine o'clock. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 10 Public Inquiry is adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 11 November 9th, at 9:00 a.m. 12 13 --- Upon Adjourning at 4:20 p.m. 14 15 16 17 Certified Correct 18 19 20 21 22 ____________________ 23 Dustin Warnock 24 25