11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 7th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 102 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 106 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 173 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-109 Stan Thompson drawing, September 14 4 20, 1995, marked by witness, Cecil 5 George, December 7, 2004 6 P-110 Document 1005720, pages 223 - 245, 84 7 11 photographs of Mr. Cecil George 8 taken by SIU, September 07/95 9 14-2a, 14-4a, 14-5a, 14-7a, 14-8a, 10 14-12a, 14-13a, 14-14a, 14-17a, 11 14-19a, 14-22a, and CD ROM of 12 photographs, CD marked "Longboat/Alliance" 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon convening at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. George...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 15 A: Good morning, sir. 16 Q: Yesterday when we finished we were at 17 the point when you had arrived at the police checkpoint 18 on East Parkway Drive and had been not allowed to proceed 19 down East Parkway Drive towards the Park. 20 And you told us that your wife backed up 21 your truck and you and your brother, Jeremiah got out of 22 the truck and went from East Parkway Drive over to the 23 beach. Do you recall that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And when you got to the beach did you
81 observe any police cars or police officers on the beach? 2 A: No one was there. 3 Q: And the point where you arrive on the 4 beach, I take it, it was close to the intersection of 5 East Parkway Drive and the road that runs from Raven's 6 Wood north to the beach? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And after you got to the beach, what 9 did you then do, Mr. George? 10 A: We continued on east along the beach 11 to -- towards the Park. 12 Q: And as you were walking along the 13 beach did you observe any people or any police officers 14 on the beach? 15 A: No one was there. 16 Q: Did you observe any lights on in the 17 cottages as you walked along the beach? 18 A: There might have been the odd light 19 on, yes. 20 Q: And how long -- do you recall how 21 long, approximately, it took you to get from where you 22 first went on to the beach down to the Park? 23 A: Five minutes or so. 24 Q: And when you reached the area of the 25 Park, did -- what did you do?
91 A: Well, I -- I seen a few people 2 walking around the fire that was kind of down close to 3 the water's edge, like the bottom of the hill. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: They were -- they were -- I can't 6 recall if it was right on the beach or up higher. I know 7 there was a smaller fire burning there. 8 Q: So that -- 9 A: No one was in the -- in the sandy 10 area -- the -- the parking lot area. 11 Q: So when you approached the -- the 12 area north of the sandy parking lot where the sandy 13 parking lot goes down to the beach, the -- back in 1995 14 was there barriers at the edge of the -- the -- that part 15 of the beach in front of the cottages and another barrier 16 on that part of the beach in front of the Provincial 17 Park? 18 A: Yes, there was a barrier separating 19 the Park from the rest of the beach. 20 Q: And then was there a barrier 21 preventing automobiles and separating, as well, the beach 22 in front of the cottages from the driveway -- the 23 extension of the driveway -- the sandy park lot -- down 24 to the beach? Do you recall that? 25 A: Yes, I believe there was.
101 Q: So that the fire that you saw was 2 either on the top of the bank or down on the beach? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if it was on top of the bank, I 5 take it, it would be on -- on the Park side level -- more 6 or less level with the rest of the Park along the fence 7 line? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall today which 10 location it was or simply it was one or the other? 11 A: I believe it was kind of on top of 12 the hill. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: Not right on top of the hill, but 15 kind of partially down below the hill a little. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I'm not exactly sure, but I know 18 there was a smaller fire there. 19 Q: Okay, and when you observed that, did 20 you see that fire as you and your brother, Jeremiah -- it 21 was Jeremiah that was walking with you -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- as you approached the -- 24 approached Provincial Park? 25 A: Yes, sir.
111 Q: And did you -- you said there some 2 people around the fire. Can you -- 3 A: One (1) of them was my other brother, 4 Stacey, known as Burger -- nicknamed Burger. He was at - 5 - near the bottom of the hill. They were walking around 6 inside the Park. 7 Q: On -- on the beach side of the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The Park side of the beach? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes? And do you recall who else was 12 there? 13 A: There may have been a couple of other 14 people there. I didn't really see who they were because 15 it was kind of dark in that area. 16 Q: Okay. And were these -- 17 A: I think they were gathering firewood 18 something. 19 Q: And were these individuals on the 20 Park side or on the -- outside the Park? 21 A: They were on the inside of the Park. 22 Q: On the inside of the Park? And what 23 did you do when you saw these individuals? Did you go 24 speak to them? What did you do next? 25 A: Shortly I -- I just let them know to
121 be careful, that there was a lot of police down the road 2 at the -- at that Ministry of -- the next parking lot 3 that was west of the Park. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: I told them that there was a lot of 6 police and be careful. 7 Q: And did you -- how long did you 8 remain with the people at this fire? 9 A: Just a very short time, just to let 10 them know to be careful. 11 Q: Then what did you do? 12 A: Then I walked up along over the hill 13 and I crossed over the fence into the Park. 14 Q: And at what point did you -- do you 15 recall that you crossed over the fence into the Park? 16 A: Just as the hill starts as you go 17 down towards the beach area, I walked halfway up the hill 18 and then I walked -- I just jumped over the fence. 19 Q: And did you observe anyone at the 20 point where you jumped over the fence? 21 A: There were not a lot -- large amount 22 of people in that area. I couldn't really tell who was 23 who because it was dark in that area and there was 24 another fire burning up on top of the hill. 25 Q: And the fire that was on top of the
131 hill, Mr. George, was it up near the bank or down towards 2 the gate and the Park store? 3 A: No it was near an entrance to that by 4 the parking lot there were referred to as by that 5 turnstile. 6 Q: Okay. And -- 7 A: Back in behind there a little bit. 8 Q: Pardon me? 9 A: It was probably about maybe thirty 10 (30) feet away from the fence line separating the parking 11 lot and the Park. 12 Q: And the -- and it was by the -- near 13 the turnstile? Or thirty (30) feet away from -- 14 A: Yes. Yes it was inside the Park. 15 Q: But how close would it be -- would it 16 have been to the turnstile? 17 A: Probably about maybe thirty (30), 18 forty (40) feet somewhere around that. 19 Q: And so it was thirty (30) or forty 20 (40) feet east of the turnstile? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so that behind you there's a copy 23 of Exhibit P-23 which is the Stan Thompson drawing. And 24 I'm going to ask, Commissioner, Mr. George to make some 25 marks on this drawing. And so rather than -- what I
141 would like to do is mark it as the next exhibit now which 2 I think would be P-109. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-109, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-109: Stan Thompson drawing, 6 September 20, 1995, marked by 7 witness, Cecil George, 8 December 7, 2004. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: On the -- behind you is a drawing to 12 scale of the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army 13 Camp Road immediately behind you, Mr. George. 14 And is the area of the fire that you 15 observed on the evening of September 6th by the turnstile 16 -- I take it it would've been, if you take a look at this 17 map P-109, it would have been off the map? 18 A: It was somewhere right around -- 19 Q: Perhaps you could mark number 1 with 20 a circle where -- with that black marker where you think 21 the fire was? Thank you. 22 A: Somewhere in that area. 23 Q: Thank you. In that -- more or less 24 in that area? 25 A: Somewhere in that area.
151 Q: Okay. Thank you. And can you 2 describe the fire for us? Was it a small fire, a medium 3 fire, a large fire? 4 A: It was -- I'd call it a medium fire. 5 It wasn't really large. It was big enough to light up 6 the area that was around in there. 7 Q: And did you observe whether or not it 8 cast any light out onto the sandy parking lot? 9 A: Yes, it did but not a lot. 10 Q: Not a lot? And did you encounter any 11 people at the -- when you got to the fire at location 12 number one? 13 A: There were, like I mentioned earlier, 14 there was a number of people in there and there was women 15 and the younger men. And I looked around for -- to see 16 if there was any smaller children in the area and I 17 really didn't see any. And there was some -- some of 18 them I -- I couldn't recognize because it was kind of 19 dark and they were standing back away from the fire. 20 Q: And at the point in time when you 21 returned to the Park the second time, can you tell me 22 what time it was? It was clearly after dark? 23 A: Yes, it was -- it was dark by then. 24 I couldn't really see a lot of what kind of vehicles were 25 in that, there were some cars in there and I really can't
161 say if I had seen that bus in there or any trucks or 2 anything. I was more concerned about the people that 3 were there. 4 Q: Okay. But I'm just trying to, and I 5 know it's nine (9) years ago and only lawyers ask these 6 kinds of questions, but if you have any idea as to what 7 time it was when you arrived back the second time? 8 A: Well, I'm sorry, it was ten o'clock, 9 between 10:00 and 11:00, somewhere in that area. 10 Q: And the fact that you didn't see 11 small children, would that be unusual having regard to 12 the fact that there was school the next day? 13 A: Could have been, yes. 14 Q: And they may have been home getting 15 ready to go to -- get -- 16 A: At that time of night, yes. 17 Q: At ten (10) to eleven (11)? And did 18 you -- was your sister Gina Johnson there, did you see 19 her? 20 A: She was in that area. I'm trying 21 hard to think of -- I know she was there but I didn't 22 really see her at that -- these few moments that I was 23 inside that Park I may have talked to her but I -- my 24 thinking kind of -- is kind of jammed. 25 Q: And at the time when you went into
171 the Park, you took with you the -- the two (2) walkie 2 talkies? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And the scanner? 5 A: I believe I did, yes. 6 Q: And who did you give the walkie- 7 talkies and the scanner to? 8 A: I can't recall who I -- the exact 9 person I gave it to, I just handed it out and told them 10 they might need some communications up front at the 11 buildings at where they were staying. 12 Q: And what was your intention with 13 respect to the walkie-talkies when you say, up front at 14 the buildings you were -- they were staying? Are you 15 referring to one (1) of the radios being in the built-up 16 area and one (1) radio in the Park? 17 A: Well, then I thought that maybe I -- 18 I would probably need one because I told them I was going 19 to go outside our Park and -- and walk down the road and 20 see what was going on down there. 21 So I just handed one (1) of them over and 22 I can't recall who I gave it to. I know I handed one (1) 23 to another individual there, and I kept the other radio. 24 Q: And do you recall who you gave the 25 scanner to?
181 A: No, I -- I believe that I -- I kept 2 it for -- in my -- on my own person. 3 Q: And I think you told us yesterday 4 that the radio could pick up other communications if the 5 communications were close enough to the radios? 6 A: Yes, you -- you could. I picked up 7 different frequencies off these radios before that. 8 Q: And did you -- do you recall speaking 9 to Roderick George at the time you entered the Park with 10 the radios? 11 A: I may have spoken to him, it may have 12 been -- there was a -- a few different guys standing 13 around in there that I was talking to and, like, I'm 14 thinking hard about who -- who exactly was there, but I 15 know I seen a couple guys that I never recognized before 16 or I didn't know. 17 Q: Did you -- did you recall giving one 18 (1) of the radios to Isaac "Buck" Doxtator? 19 A: I may have, yes. 20 Q: And do you recall anything else of 21 the discussion or the conversation between yourself and 22 the people in the Park? 23 A: I informed them that there was a 24 large amount of police buildup to the west of the Park 25 area there and that I wasn't really sure, I says it -- I
191 just had a funny feeling that something might take place, 2 and be careful and -- and I just told them that I was 3 going to go back outside the Park here and down the road. 4 Q: And did -- do you recall any of the 5 occupiers saying anything to you? 6 A: Watch yourself. 7 Q: And what was the mood of the people 8 that you spoke to in the Park at this time? 9 A: The mood was -- I guess there was a 10 number of different moods I -- that I sensed. I mean 11 that I could feel that they had was one (1) of them was 12 probably fear because of not understanding and not 13 knowing what was down that road. 14 Another one was curiosity. Everyone was 15 curious, I mean who wouldn't be in -- at that time in 16 that surrounding. It was -- for some reason the lighting 17 was not in that area like it usually was. That corner 18 was usually lit up. 19 There was -- I -- I really never sensed 20 any anger within anybody -- frustration. and that's only 21 a few that I -- that I could see that was inside some of 22 these people that were there. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: That was only a few that I could 25 sense; that I could feel from these that were there.
201 Q: And you said that that corner was 2 usually lit up. It's our understanding, Mr. George, that 3 the streetlight that exists today, and I anticipate the 4 evidence will be that that light went into -- at that 5 corner in 1996 after these events. 6 So when you're referring to the 7 intersection normally being lit up, what are you 8 referring to, Mr. George? 9 A: It may have been because of the -- 10 the Park -- the lighting in the Park, because they had 11 lighting in the Park. I mean I -- I went -- I walked 12 through that area when I used to hunt down there before 13 that took place and there was already a lot of lighting 14 around in there and it just seemed like it was darker 15 than normal for some reason. I -- I don't know why. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: It was just a feeling that I felt to 18 me. 19 Q: There were lights in -- in -- 20 normally when the Park was open there were lights in the 21 Park store? Do you recall that, having been there 22 before? 23 A: Some lighting, yes. 24 Q: And there were light standards around 25 the Park store. Do you recall that prior to September
211 4th? 2 A: Yes, there was some lighting around-- 3 Q: And -- 4 A: -- around that building. 5 Q: -- on the night of September 6th, do 6 you recall what lighting was around the Park store or did 7 you get that -- get close to the Park store? 8 A: No, I didn't even bother noticing 9 that building in there. I just had concern that it was - 10 - what was down the road. 11 Q: And, so, you left -- how -- how long 12 did you remain in the Park near the fire? 13 A: Just a few moments. 14 Q: And you then decided to go outside 15 the Park and go down East Parkway Drive? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And why did you decide to go down 18 East Parkway Drive? 19 A: I was curious, I was -- I wanted to 20 know why the police buildup was -- that was the biggest 21 area where I -- I'd seen most of the police vehicles and 22 police. 23 And I mentioned earlier when I left, the 24 last time I -- we went through that checkpoint and I 25 noticed that the police were carrying rifles and I
221 thought that was highly unusual to have police carrying 2 that type of firearms. The last time I seen them and -- 3 was down in Kettle Point when I got involved in the -- 4 Q: In the incident with Mr. Darryl 5 George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now -- 8 A: Same -- similar type of a firearm -- 9 a rifle. 10 Q: Did you ask the police officers -- 11 and I don't think I asked this yesterday -- when you were 12 turned back at the checkpoint on the second time that you 13 went to the Park -- why they wouldn't let you through? 14 A: No, they -- that was -- I was 15 wondering why they wouldn't let us through again. 16 Q: But did you ask them why? Did you -- 17 did you indicate to them that you were a councillor? 18 A: No, I did not. I may have at the 19 first time coming through but I didn't this time, no. 20 Q: And they were -- they were different 21 officers the second time? 22 A: It was fairly -- it was dark that 23 time. I -- I -- 24 Q: Couldn't really see? 25 A: No. I -- I seen some in the
231 headlights of a vehicle and they were still in the 2 greyish uniforms. 3 Q: And so you -- take us back now to the 4 Park. You're in the Park and decide to go down East 5 Parkway Drive, you leave the Park and proceed down East 6 Parkway Drive? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what if anything did you have 9 with you as you proceeded down East Parkway Drive? 10 A: I had a stick in my hand and I had 11 one (1) of the radios 12 Q: And can you tell us what -- describe 13 the stick please. 14 A: It was probably about three (3) or 15 four (4) feet in length, maybe a little bit longer and it 16 wasn't too big a stick. I mean it was probably maybe an 17 inch or two in diameter and four (4) feet long. 18 Q: And why -- 19 A: Maybe a little longer, five (5) feet. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: About four (4) or five (5) feet long 22 somewhere. 23 Q: And why did you have a stick? 24 A: To be honest, I was -- had fear 25 inside of me also for what unknown was down that road and
241 what might happen if I walked down the road and they 2 might have -- the police might have thought that I was 3 one (1) of the occupiers and jump me and I more or less 4 had it for -- like a self -- self -- for my protection. 5 I always -- I always carried a stick when 6 I walk around, to a point -- it was one of the things 7 that you see a lot of people who are carrying a stick 8 along the road. I carried it because I had fear inside 9 of me that I might be jumped by a police officer because 10 they thought I might have been one (1) of the occupiers 11 there at that Park. 12 Q: And the -- you said that you normally 13 carried a stick when you're walking. And why was that? 14 A: Out of habit I guess. 15 Q: And when you were in the Park at this 16 point just before you started down East Parkway Drive, 17 did you observe any guns in the Park? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: And did you observe anyone drinking 20 alcohol? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: And did you observe anyone who 23 appeared to be intoxicated? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: And prior to arriving at the Park the
251 second time, had you had anything -- consumed any 2 alcohol? 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: And had you consumed any alcohol the 5 first time that you drove down to the Park? 6 A: I -- it was probably about eight (8) 7 months before I even had any alcohol. I don't consume it 8 very often. 9 Q: So it had been -- 10 A: Maybe twice a year I give in to it. 11 Q: And -- so it had been around eight 12 (8) months -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- since you had any alcohol? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when you went over the fence, was 17 -- do you recall if there were people inside the sandy 18 parking lot to the west of the fence? 19 A: No, there wasn't anyone in that 20 parking area. 21 Q: And so did anyone else go with you 22 down East Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yes, there was a couple of other -- 24 there was two (2) other younger fellows that came outside 25 of the Park when I did.
261 Q: Do you recall who they were? 2 A: No. I can't -- there was two (2) of 3 them. They were younger than myself and they kind of 4 walked along the top of the hill, along the road looking 5 at -- into the cottages. I'm not really sure who they 6 were. They were the two (2) younger fellows. 7 Q: Was one (1) David George? 8 A: It may have been, yes. 9 Q: Was one (1) Kevin Thomas? 10 A: Thomas? 11 Q: Or, your friend -- 12 A: That I -- 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: It may have been, yes. I know there 15 was two (2) younger fellows besides myself that were 16 outside in that area. 17 Q: So, how far down the road did you go, 18 Mr. George? 19 A: I went almost halfway to the area 20 where the police were situated. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Maybe a third of the way. Between a 23 third and -- and half way, it was over a quarter way 24 there. 25 Q: And there's -- there's a curve in the
271 road that unfortunately we don't have a diagram of, but 2 did you get down to the curve in the road? 3 A: Yes, I went past a curve in the road. 4 Q: And the -- on your way down, what did 5 you observe, if anything? 6 A: Well, I couldn't really -- I -- in -- 7 in the distance I could see the headlights of vehicles 8 moving around, you can hear the -- 9 Q: That was after you went around the 10 curve? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And I observed -- that's what I could 14 observe but I could also hear... 15 Q: What did you hear? 16 A: I could hear, to the left of me, hear 17 -- there was a -- a smaller building right around the 18 corner that -- where the curve is, it curves around and 19 heads west towards that -- away from the Park. 20 I could hear sticks cracking in that area 21 and it sounded like faint voices like, I always -- what I 22 could -- you could hear so that it -- someone was in 23 there, and -- 24 Q: That was on the south side of East 25 Parkway Drive?
281 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was that in the area close to 3 Army Camp Road? On -- behind you on Exhibit P-109 you 4 will see some buildings that were in a lot that was at 5 the southwest corner. Is that what you're talking about 6 or farther down the road? 7 A: That's the area I -- I referred to. 8 Q: The area that's on the -- and the -- 9 so that as you were moving down the road you heard noise 10 from on the south side of the road, near the buildings 11 that are shown on Exhibit P-109? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us any more about it 14 than what you've done? What could you -- 15 A: Well, I could hear, like I mentioned, 16 there was sticks cracking and it sounded like faint 17 voices from that area. So I just stopped there for a 18 little while and listened. 19 And while I was on the roadway there, I 20 never really left the roadway. I -- I was pretty much on 21 the roadway all the time. So I radioed back to whoever 22 the person was, and I -- I don't recognize the voice who 23 I was talking to on the -- on the radio, the walkie- 24 talkie. And I told him that I could hear things and -- 25 but I -- I can't really see anything yet.
291 Q: And at the -- even though it doesn't 2 show on Exhibit P-109, there's a substantial amounts of 3 trees in that lot to the west of those buildings; is that 4 not correct, north and west of those buildings? 5 A: Yes, there was an opening behind the 6 -- the buildings there, there you get into a bush -- bush 7 area. 8 Q: So you heard the noise in this area 9 by the buildings on the southwest corner of East Parkway 10 and Army Camp Road. Did you hear any other noises? 11 A: Yes, I heard some more, it sounded 12 like sticks cracking up in the cottage area and I stopped 13 and listened to make out and I turned to look behind me 14 and the two (2) fellows that were behind me had gone back 15 towards the Park. 16 Q: Okay. And the -- can you recall 17 where you were when you heard the noise on the north side 18 of East Parkway? I take it it was on the north side of 19 the cottage? 20 A: Yes, it was up in the cottage area I 21 heard, it sounded like some moving up in there, it was -- 22 Q: Was it farther down or was it in the 23 same spot? What we've -- what you can see on Exhibit P- 24 109, is the entrances to the first two (2) cottage areas, 25 the driveway, Mr. George, that - that runs from the sandy
301 parking lot, leads up to the big white cottage on the top 2 of the hill. Do you know that area? 3 A: Yes, it was up in this area here. 4 Q: So, it was up past the second parking 5 lot, which I think is -- the number on it is sixty-eight 6 forty-two (6842). Is that correct, Mr. George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So that it was west of the entrance 9 that's marked sixty-eight forty-two (6842)? So, what did 10 -- you heard this noise. Did you hear any speaking? Did 11 you hear anything else or just a cracking noise? 12 A: Well, I heard some crackling noise 13 like a stick breaking or -- and like I mentioned, I -- it 14 was -- sounded like faint voice -- voices, so I just 15 continued on around down the road further towards where 16 the police buildup was. 17 Q: And so, when -- tell us what you -- 18 you proceeded down the road. Did you hear any more 19 noises as you went down the road? 20 A: No, I was getting pretty tensed up at 21 that -- by that time. 22 Q: And so, you went down the road, you 23 went around the corner? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what did you observe when you
311 went around the corner? 2 A: I observed the same movement -- 3 vehicles -- you could see headlights turning around and 4 then it kind of went dark after that. There was not so 5 much movement of vehicles in the area of the -- where the 6 police buildup was. 7 Q: And the police buildup was at -- 8 could you see where they were? Were they at the -- the 9 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then what happened? 12 A: I went, probably like I mentioned, 13 about a third of the way between the Park and the parking 14 lot area where the police were and I stopped. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: And I talked to the person -- whoever 17 was talking on the radio and I told him, I says, I've got 18 a funny feeling, this -- this don't look good. And then 19 I looked again and I could hear movement. I couldn't 20 really see a lot, but I could hear movement -- footsteps 21 on the road. 22 You could hear them because it was fairly 23 calm that night. It wasn't windy, it was fairly calm and 24 I could hear footsteps coming down the road and there was 25 -- sounded like a lot of footsteps.
321 Q: And how long did you -- you heard the 2 footsteps, what did you then do? 3 A: I just stood there and I got on the 4 radio and I told them, I think they might be coming this 5 way and I stood there for a while and I -- I thought I'd 6 seen little, like little penlight coming down the road -- 7 a bunch of little penlights, like the smaller -- this 8 type here. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And I wasn't exactly sure and -- 11 until they got closer and then it ended up that the 12 penlights that I saw was a reflection off of objects. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: They were completely almost across 15 the road. 16 Q: And can you describe the -- what you 17 saw when you first saw the objects across the road, what 18 they were and can you -- what were they? 19 A: I come to realize that they weren't 20 flash -- little penlights anymore, that they were a 21 reflection off of an object, but I -- I couldn't really 22 tell because it was dark -- completely dark. I didn't 23 have a flashlight myself and I stood there until they got 24 closer to me -- 25 Q: Yes?
331 A: -- so I could see what exactly was 2 coming down the road. I knew they were police officers 3 and so I wanted to see what -- why they were coming down 4 the road in the dark like that without, you know, having 5 any lighting or -- they just -- they came down the road 6 in the dark. 7 Q: And -- so you waited, and how long 8 did you wait? 9 A: It wasn't very long, maybe three (3) 10 or four (4) minutes -- five (5) minutes or -- it's kind 11 of hard to tell the time when you're nervous and you're - 12 - it wasn't very long. 13 Q: And did you -- were you able to 14 eventually make out the -- what you believe were the 15 police officers coming down the road? Could you -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you describe for us when you 18 saw them, how they were dressed and what the police 19 officers were doing? 20 A: I got close enough at night because 21 the reflection in the moon that was shining on. And I -- 22 I knew -- knew they were carrying shields. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: I could see them, they had -- they 25 were in a formation and covering the whole roadway coming
341 in the direction that I was. 2 Q: And when you say they were covering 3 the whole roadway, can you -- what do you mean by that? 4 The police officers were -- 5 A: They were completely from one (1) 6 side of the road to the other side. 7 Q: On the paved part of the road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Yes? 10 A: And they were coming in my direction 11 at a kind of a slow pace at first. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Then they stopped. For some reason 14 they stopped and I didn't hear no movement. It was kind 15 of quiet and they came to a complete stop for just a 16 little while and I could hear voices. And I was trying 17 to make out what the voices were -- they were saying but 18 I -- I couldn't. It was like that for a short time, 19 maybe a couple of minutes. 20 And then they started moving towards me 21 again. So I -- I just stood there and I talked to 22 someone that was on the other radio and told them that 23 the police were coming, to get ready and do what -- 24 whatever they're going to do then. It don't look good. 25 Q: And when you first saw the police
351 officers you said that they had the shields, did you see 2 any -- can you tell us whether you saw anything else 3 about their uniforms? 4 A: Then I realized that they were riot 5 police. 6 Q: And when you say they were -- you 7 realized they were riot police, what do you mean by that 8 and -- 9 A: They were dressed in -- in out of the 10 normal wear. That's the first time I ever -- I only seen 11 it on TV. I have never seen that sort of incident in 12 person before. I've only seen it on TV. 13 Q: And what did you see? 14 A: I seen them dressed in their uniforms 15 and they were carrying shields. The moonlight lit them 16 up really well. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: When you -- like any -- any person, 19 when you're in the dark looking you can see a little bit 20 better than when you walked in from a lit up room or 21 lighting into a darker area your -- your eyes get 22 focussed at night. So I -- then I realized that they 23 were riot police and I started to backup. 24 Q: Did they have helmets on? Could -- 25 could you see that?
361 A: At that point I couldn't really tell. 2 All I seen was the shields -- the moon -- the moon was 3 reflecting of the shields. 4 Q: So that -- but you thought they were 5 riot police and you started backing down the road? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And what did you do? 8 A: I backed down the road probably maybe 9 fifty (50) to a hundred (100) feet and I stopped and they 10 kept advancing. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And my first thought was try to talk 13 to them. That's the first thing I could think of was 14 tell them something. Ask them -- ask them to put their 15 weapons away and -- and I did that. That was one of the 16 first things I -- I told them and they weren't -- they 17 weren't that far away from me that they would have heard 18 me. 19 Q: And when you said this to the police 20 officers, can you tell us where you were on East Parkway 21 Drive? We're in an area -- 22 A: I was up past that lane where we 23 marked G on the map. 24 Q: The lane way that 68-42, you were 25 west of that -- in that area?
371 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Could you mark a two (2) on the map 3 where you were approximately when you started to speak to 4 the police officers? And so, can you tell us what you 5 can remember saying to the police officers when you were 6 at Point Number 2 on Exhibit P-109? 7 A: The first thing I -- I told them and 8 I said it loud enough so that they would hear me, and I 9 know they heard me because it was quiet down there. 10 And, the only -- the only things that you 11 could hear was themselves walking down the road and they 12 were probably touching each other's shield, a little 13 clanking, clunking noises and whatever they were 14 carrying, with their -- whatever they had on their person 15 you could hear, you know, the clunking noise. I could 16 hear them and I could hear their footsteps. 17 So, I'm -- I -- and it wasn't -- it wasn't 18 really windy down there and it was sort of calm that 19 night and I said it loud enough for them to hear me and I 20 knew they heard me. 21 Q: Well, when you say you knew they 22 heard you, how can you say that? Did anyone respond to 23 you, Mr. George? 24 A: No one responded to me. 25 Q: Did anyone say anything to you,
381 anything to you at all, at this point? 2 A: No, sir, nothing. 3 Q: So, what precisely did you say to the 4 police as best as you can remember now? 5 A: The first thing I told them to -- 6 was, put their guns away. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: Then they -- when I started to speak, 9 it seemed like the pace -- the pace that they were -- a 10 slow pace turned into a -- a more of a -- a faster pace. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: When I start speaking that's when 13 they advanced to me at a more rapid pace. And I start 14 backing up and I -- and I told them again, I spoke again 15 and I told them not to do this to these people behind me, 16 to leave them alone. 17 And I -- they just kept advancing so I -- 18 I backed up and I stopped again. Then I told them, that 19 if we wanted to fight to deal with me, leave these people 20 alone. And they -- they were -- their rate of advance 21 was even quicker, by then I was already back past that -- 22 that driveway. I know I went past the driveway and their 23 advance, their pace that they were on was -- it was 24 picking up faster. 25 Q: The time that you -- the second time
391 that you spoke to the police officers, the -- and said 2 that, about the fight, were you on the sandy parking lot 3 or still on the pavement? 4 A: No, I was still past that driveway. 5 Q: You were still in the area -- the 6 area of Number 2 or just a little closer to the Park? 7 A: Yes, I -- I think I -- I know I told 8 them to, if you wanted to be like real men, deal with me. 9 Q: You're sure that was at this time 10 when you were out on the parking -- on the pavement? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And after that you then -- 13 what did you then do, Mr. George? 14 A: Well, I -- by then I was realized 15 that they were picking up pace so I -- I backed up. The 16 closer I got to the corner, the faster I backed up. 17 And I -- and I told them, don't do this, 18 as I was backing up, but, by then they were walking 19 faster and I don't know if they would have heard me when 20 I told them and I kept telling them, don't do this, even 21 though I was backing up. 22 Q: And the police officers kept coming 23 towards you. Can you tell us at this point could you see 24 more of the police officers? 25 A: Yes.
401 Q: And can you tell us, how many police 2 officers do you remember were there? 3 A: There was a large amount, when I got 4 -- the closer I backed up and then when I told the person 5 that was on the other walkie-talkie, I told him that 6 they're coming. 7 By -- by then I can't exactly recall what 8 I told him on the radio, I just him that they were 9 coming, to get ready, and maybe get the women out of 10 there and get ready, they're coming, it didn't look good. 11 Q: And -- but how many police officers, 12 can you recall? 13 A: They were all across the roadway, I - 14 - I couldn't -- I couldn't count them. 15 Q: And so after you're getting closer to 16 the sandy parking lot, you're still speaking to the 17 police officers, they're marching at -- moving towards 18 you at a faster pace; what did you then do? 19 A: I turned around to see if anybody was 20 in the area of the parking lot and I -- I seen a few 21 turning and starting to go into the Park and I was -- I 22 was almost at the corner and I -- I heard vehicles start 23 up behind me in the parking lot and I seen cars starting 24 to move -- looked like they were leaving the area, and it 25 was, you know, it was -- there was a lot of movement,
411 people starting to move around, and a light -- lights 2 came on. Vehicle lights started to shine down the road 3 in the direction that I was, inside the Park -- 4 Q: From the -- inside the Park -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- out onto the sandy parking lot 7 and -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- down East Parkway? Yes? 10 A: Yes, and I believe it might -- may 11 have been a spotlight came on -- a bigger -- a bigger 12 spotlight came on and it shone in the direction that I 13 was and I turned to look and then I realized that they 14 were riot police and I -- you could see their shin pads 15 on and their -- their sticks that they were carrying -- 16 their billy sticks and their shields and they had helmets 17 on with face shields on and I knew that there was -- it 18 was not good. 19 Q: And at any time when you were on the 20 road do you recall hiding in the ditch? 21 A: I was kneeling on the side of the 22 road, I wasn't really hiding in no ditch and I had no 23 reason to hide. 24 Q: And when you were kneeling on the 25 side of the road, why were you kneeling on the side of
421 the road? 2 A: I was touching the ground with my 3 hand. 4 Q: To -- but -- but why? 5 A: I don't know why. 6 Q: Oh. And so -- 7 A: I don't -- I don't know what made me 8 put my hand on the ground, but I put my hand on the 9 ground and I kneeled in there. 10 Q: And so the lights came on in the Park 11 -- the spotlight came on. You could see the police 12 officers, see their helmets, their shields, their -- 13 their uniforms, how they were dressed. What, then, 14 happened? 15 A: Then their pace picked up a lot 16 quicker. The closer I got to the Park, the faster the 17 pace got. By then I was in this area. 18 Q: And by then you would -- by then -- 19 so, perhaps you could mark a -- a number 3 on the -- and 20 at this point where you put the number 3, it's at the -- 21 on East Parkway Drive just west of the point where Army 22 Camp Road turns into East Parkway Drive. 23 At this point the lights are on in the -- 24 the car lights are on the Park and the spotlight's on? 25 A: They were on before that.
431 Q: They were on? 2 A: They started coming on when I told 3 them, They're -- they're coming, get ready. 4 Q: And so at point number 3, the police 5 have picked up their pace, you're -- at that point -- 6 then what did you do? 7 A: There was nothing I could do but back 8 up. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: I was still backing up at that point. 11 Q: And did you eventually turn around 12 and go back into the Park or did you -- 13 A: I thought about turning the direction 14 that I was going and go up towards Highway 21, but a 15 feeling came inside of me not to do that, to go back with 16 these people there. 17 Q: And so at one time you thought that 18 you might go up Army Camp Road towards Highway -- 19 A: Yes, I thought about it, but I 20 remembered my sister and brother and friends that were 21 behind me and I -- I -- I didn't want to leave. 22 Q: So, what did you do? You went back 23 across the sandy parking lot into the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And --
441 A: At that time I was -- I was -- they 2 were right behind me, only a matter of feet -- a short 3 distance. They were almost right on top of me by then. 4 Q: And the -- did you see any other 5 Occupiers in the sandy parking lot as you were moving 6 back towards the Park? 7 A: There was -- there may have been -- 8 yes, there was -- not very many, a couple of them 9 standing outside along by the fence there and -- 10 Q: And when the police officers moved 11 into the sandy parking lot, what -- what did the police 12 officers do? Did they spread out? Did they stay 13 together? 14 A: They spread out. They started 15 spreading out of the -- near the parking lot area. I was 16 backing up watching them. I backed up right to -- almost 17 to the edge of the road at the corner there. 18 Q: Yes? And -- 19 A: I was still backing up where number 3 20 is. 21 Q: And you say the police officers 22 started to spread out as you -- when you were still at 23 number 3? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And as you backed up into the sandy
451 parking lot and the police were behind you, when the 2 police entered the sandy parking lot, what did the police 3 do? 4 A: They seemed to spread out and I had 5 to turn and they forced me to go inside the Park. 6 Q: Okay. And once you went inside the 7 Park, can you tell us what the formation of -- of the 8 police formation was in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: They were all spread all the way 10 across the whole roadway on, partly on top of, there was 11 a little hill near the side of that parking lot and they 12 were up right to that point all the way across they 13 pretty much came and -- 14 Q: Can -- 15 A: -- spread across the whole roadway. 16 Q: Can you just -- there's a separate 17 microphone on that table or there should be, Mr. George. 18 Could you just pick up the other microphone? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 20 behind the screen. Yes, right there. It should be right 21 there. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Sorry, Mr. George, it's normally on 25 the table. And could you turn around and show us on P-
461 109, as you -- when you went back into the Park, how the 2 police -- what the police were doing and what formation 3 they were in? 4 A: Is it on? 5 Q: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 7 THE WITNESS: They were starting to 8 spread all the way across this whole complete area right 9 in here. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And you're drawing, with your pointer 13 you're illustrating the -- from the northern -- north -- 14 north line of the sandy parking lot near the first 15 intersection which I believe has a number 11-02 on it. 16 And down to the area on the south side of the sandy 17 parking lot just to the west of the -- the sand pile. 18 Do you know if that sand pile was there on 19 September 6th, do you remember that sand pile on P109? 20 A: I believe it may have been, yes. 21 Q: You don't know? 22 A: Yes, I think it was there. 23 Q: Okay. And so they were spread out the 24 -- and they then advanced in a straight line towards you? 25 When you went back into the Park, how were the police --
471 where were the police officers? Could you draw a line on 2 Exhibit P-109 where the police officers were when you 3 went back into the Park and put a number 4 on it please, 4 Mr. George? 5 And how close -- could you put a number 4 6 just beside that line please? And the -- how close to 7 the fence did the police come the first time they came 8 into the sandy parking lot? 9 A: They were leaning right over the 10 fence. 11 Q: And what was happening at the -- when 12 they were leaning over the fence? What were they doing? 13 A: They were swinging their billy sticks 14 at the ones that were inside the Park. 15 Q: And did -- what was happening -- what 16 were the people -- you could put that microphone down now 17 I think for the moment. And what were the people inside 18 the Park doing, this? 19 A: That angered them. 20 Q: Yes. But what did they do? 21 A: They started throwing sticks and 22 stones and burning sticks in the fire. 23 Q: And did -- what did the police do? 24 They came up to the fence that -- you indicate they were 25 at the fence with their clubs. Did they then retreat, or
481 move back, away from the fence? 2 A: They did after they realized that 3 they angered the people that were there by swinging their 4 clubs because when I was backing up and when I was forced 5 over that fence into the Park, I didn't really want to go 6 inside that Park again but... 7 Q: Why didn't you want to go inside the 8 Park? 9 A: Because I never really understood 10 about the issue surrounding why they -- why they went 11 inside the Park and I -- there was really no answers to 12 yet why they were there and what they -- what the ones 13 that were there were trying to tell the Government, 14 trying to tell someone that it wasn't -- it was too short 15 a time for anyone to really understand why, especially 16 when you don't realize it yourself, you don't understand 17 it, you're trying to learn about it. 18 So I felt that I had the -- I had the 19 right to be on the roadway, they give me that right to be 20 on that roadway but I was never -- that's just the way I 21 felt. 22 Q: Okay. And you say that the police 23 retreated or moved back because they knew they had 24 angered the people in the Park now. You can't really 25 say, Mr. George, can you, what the police were thinking,
491 that was your supposition? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You agree you can't -- you can't say 4 what the police were thinking when they made the movement 5 away from the fence? 6 A: What I was thinking that they were -- 7 this is what I thought at that time when it was happening 8 to us, is that they were coming in, because they never 9 mentioned anything to us before they got there. 10 They never tried to talk to me, they 11 didn't try to use any kind of loud-speaking device to 12 tell us not to be there or to clear the area, there was 13 no -- they didn't inform us whatsoever. 14 Q: So that, there was no warnings by the 15 police officers -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- as they came and -- 18 A: They just rushed in and came right up 19 to the fence and started swinging at people that were 20 close to the fence and I don't know, they may have been 21 in contact with other individuals that were inside that 22 Park, I -- they were awful close and there may have been 23 contact with other individuals. 24 I was at -- when I -- when I started to 25 see that happen I -- a funny feeling started coming
501 inside of me. And then that went on for not very long, 2 just... 3 Q: And, Mr. George, when the police were 4 at the fence line, did the police attempt to come in over 5 the fence into the Park? 6 A: No, they -- they came to the fence 7 line and leaned over and that's as far as they came with 8 their -- you know -- with swinging their billy sticks. 9 Q: But they stopped at the fence line? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when the police, at one point, 12 after a few minutes, the police left the fence line? 13 A: Yes, they backed up. 14 Q: And where did they back up to, Mr. 15 George? 16 A: They backed up to the other side of 17 the roadway, the parking lot. 18 Q: And so they backed up to the west 19 side of the -- of the sandy parking lot? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you, using the laser, can you 22 just point out on Exhibit P-109, where you recall the 23 police officers backing up to? 24 And could you draw a line on Exhibit P- 25 109, Mr. George, the approximate location of the police
511 officers when they backed up across the sandy parking 2 lot? And could you put a number 5 on that -- by that 3 line, Mr. George, please? Thank you. So the police 4 officers are lined up on the west side of the sandy 5 parking lot along the west edge of the sandy parking lot. 6 Then what happened? 7 A: Then I tried to speak to them again. 8 There was -- at that time there was still rocks being 9 thrown at them and burning sticks were being thrown at 10 them. That angered them, the ones that were -- the ones 11 that were in the Park. 12 Q: That angered the people in the -- the 13 people in the Park were angry at the police officers? 14 A: Yes, sir, they brought -- they 15 brought on anger to the people that were there -- great 16 anger. 17 Q: And So the people inside the Park 18 were throwing rocks and sticks at the police officers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at this point, approximately how 21 many people -- Occupiers -- were inside the Park? 22 A: Not a lot. I -- there wasn't very 23 many people there. I can't give an exact, but around 24 twenty (20) -- twenty-five (25), more than that. 25 Q: Okay. And you were, at this point,
521 inside the Park, and whereabouts -- where was your 2 location inside the Park? 3 A: I was right inside that turnstile you 4 keep referring to as a little hole in the fence there. 5 Q: Yes? And could you mark on Exhibit 6 P-109 with a small "x" and put the number 6 beside it 7 where you were standing on the inside of the Park? 8 A: It was -- 9 Q: No -- 10 A: -- I marked that I -- I kind of 11 looked around to see where all of the police were 12 standing and they were kind of up on the hills a little 13 bit behind me. They weren't just on the ground, they 14 were up -- you could see them standing there. 15 Q: when you say, "They were on the 16 hills," they were -- there's a slope up from the sandy 17 parking lot to the west, so they were backed up -- 18 A: Yes, there was a little hill there 19 and there was other police officers that were standing up 20 in that area, too. 21 Q: And can you point on Exhibit P-109 22 that's behind you with your laser, where the police 23 officers on the hill were? And were they -- on the east 24 side there's a fence at that point in the sandy parking 25 lot. Is that not correct, Mr. George? Do you recall
531 that? That's up -- 2 A: I can't recall if there was a -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- fence there or not. I know there 5 was -- there were -- there were some police officers 6 standing up higher than the rest. 7 Q: And were they dressed in the same 8 uniforms? 9 A: No. 10 Q: What -- can you describe how those 11 police officers looked? 12 A: They weren't -- they didn't have a 13 shield and a helmet like the rest of them did. They were 14 -- who else would be standing there but police officers 15 and they were up -- and I kind of looked to my left and 16 it looked like there was -- may have been more. 17 Q: Okay, let's do this one (1) -- let's 18 do this one (1) step at a time. Can you mark on Exhibit 19 P-109, where the police officers that you said were on 20 the hill, where they were located? Can you just simply 21 mark that with your marker? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 23 think he's marked where he was yet. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we're going to 25 come back to that I think.
541 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The number 2 might -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I'll -- I'll come 4 back to -- I'm going to change the order here. We'll 5 come back, Commissioner, to... 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And how many police officers did you 9 observe up there? 10 A: Number 6 -- you want me to write in 11 that? 12 Q: Yeah, write number 6 there, Mr. 13 George. We'll scratch the first six (6). And how may 14 police officers were there? 15 A: I can't recall, but they were 16 standing up there. 17 Q: Okay. And you said that you saw some 18 other police officers on a -- another hill? 19 A: They kind of caught the corner of my 20 eye. It looked like they were standing on that sand pile 21 right on the corner of the road there. Right at the 22 corner. 23 Q: Okay. Now the evidence most -- the 24 evidence that we've heard, Mr. George, is that sandy -- 25 that sand pile that's on Exhibit P-109 was not there the
551 evening of September 6th. But that there to the -- 2 there's a bank that runs along the south side of the -- 3 of the sandy parking lot that's higher than the sandy 4 parking lot. It's a -- it's a bank of sand and -- 5 A: I know I -- I looked to my left and I 6 -- I know they were standing in there too, in the -- 7 Q: Could you speak up a little bit, Mr. 8 George. 9 A: I know -- I knew they were standing - 10 - they were covering the whole area like that. They 11 weren't just in front of us. They were to the left of us 12 and they to the right. 13 Q: And the -- can you point out on 14 Exhibit P-109 where the police officers were that you saw 15 on the left side. 16 Q: And how many police -- 17 A: Marked that number 7. 18 Q: Okay. At point number 7, how many 19 police officers were there, Mr. George? 20 A: I don't know. They kind of formed a 21 line. There was two (2) lines of riot police, one front 22 and one back and there was some more up in the area I 23 pointed out in number 6. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: And I looked over to my left and I
561 seen them at the corner of the road. 2 Q: And at that corner where you've 3 marked number 7, what were those police officers wearing? 4 A: I couldn't tell they were -- you 5 could see figures moving in that area but I don't know. 6 Q: Could you tell how many police -- how 7 many people were there? You assumed there were police 8 officers but could you tell how many people were there? 9 A: No. I cannot. 10 Q: So at this point you're inside the 11 parking lot by the turnstile, could you mark on Exhibit 12 P-109 with an X and the number 8 where you were standing 13 on the inside of the Park, Mr. George, please. 14 And do you recall who was standing near 15 you? 16 A: There were different people standing 17 around in that area there. I can't exact -- I can't 18 recall who exactly where they -- who they were. 19 Q: So you're on the inside of the Park. 20 The -- some police officers -- the police officers with 21 the shields and the riot gear had backed up to the west 22 side of the Park. 23 You observed the police officers on the 24 little hill where you've marked number 6 and as well at 25 this point you observed the police officers at number 7?
571 A: Yes. 2 Q: Then what did you do? The police 3 officers were well away from the fence line. 4 A: They weren't well away but it was 5 just a short distance and I know they heard what we were 6 trying to tell them. There was a lot of yelling going 7 on, there was anger that filled that area. There were a 8 lot of different mixed emotions that were taking place at 9 that time. 10 And I decided I would try to speak again. 11 But I -- after they backed up and took their stance. 12 Again I tried to mention what I thought was the best at 13 the time because the ones involved in that type of 14 scenario, it's not an easy thing to be involved in. 15 I was never involved with anything like 16 that before. Neither were the ones that were down there 17 were involved in that type of -- it made it really 18 difficult to think of the right words to -- to try to 19 tell these police officers that were -- that retreated 20 and just stood there. They were banging on their shields 21 with their sticks, as a show of some kind of force to 22 bring anger to us or bring fear to us. 23 I felt that there was -- the fear was 24 starting to leave, knowing that they weren't -- they 25 weren't afraid anymore, because they -- they were acting
581 in self-defence. The fear was starting to leave the 2 people down there and the anger was building. 3 And not only -- not only in the ones that 4 were initially in the Park, I think it started to build 5 within me, but I tried to keep my anger inside the best I 6 could, and then I told them that our grandfathers were 7 buried there. 8 Q: And were you on the inside or the 9 outside of the Park at this point? 10 A: I was on the inside. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And then if they continued to do this 13 to the people there that they would have no respect and 14 no honour. I told them not to do this. And I told them 15 that there's young ones -- the younger ones that were 16 there, everyone that was there were a part of the seventh 17 generation. 18 What importance that has, I guess, this 19 country will find out what the seventh generation is. I 20 only understand bits and pieces about the seventh 21 generation I refer to and I -- I knew that the police 22 there, they -- they had fear inside of them. They 23 probably had anger inside of them. 24 And I looked around and -- and I was 25 wondering where the Anishnaabeg police were. I was
591 looking for Indian cops but they were no where in the 2 area. 3 I kept thinking back to the time where I 4 had to help our cousin Darryl on Kettle Point, where they 5 listened, they tried to understand what -- what I went 6 through there and there was no Indian cops there to help 7 us communicate. 8 Q: So what did you do, Mr. George? 9 Would you like a minute, Mr. George, we could take a 10 short break. 11 A: No, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take 13 the morning break now. Unless it's too completely 14 inappropriate, I think -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps we can-- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 17 to go on? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, Mr. George would 19 like to go on. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 21 to go on? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 24 THE WITNESS: Before I continue on, I'd 25 like to mention one other important part of what took
601 place down there, is that, I travel to different parts of 2 the country, can't understand why this took place and why 3 it happened, especially when he was a friend, to what -- 4 what they did to us. We lost a brother, we lost a 5 friend, and I was part -- I was involved in it. I was 6 front and centre. 7 Mankind then filled me with so much anger 8 at that point, to this day I'm still trying to understand 9 what took over me. Everything that I understood from 10 life, what I learned about, what I've seen, about our 11 land, about our people. Then I got filled with a feeling 12 that I wish nobody has, that will ever come to them. 13 The subconscious mind, whatever that is, 14 it took over me. At that point, I have nothing left 15 inside of me but anger for what they did and what they 16 were continuing to do because no one would stop, no one 17 would come out and try to talk to us. I tried talking, 18 but it seemed like they were there to do a job that they 19 were trained to do. No one knew why whether they were 20 there except for they were there, to show force. 21 I knew why. I knew something bad was going 22 to happen when that feeling took over me -- took over me. 23 I had a radio that I was carrying. I put it down on a 24 stone. The stick that I was carrying outside, I believe 25 I threw it down. Maybe a scanner I was carrying, if I had
611 it I -- I can't remember. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: I picked up what I believe 6 was a stick. It took me years, to think about what I had 7 in my hand. I know I mentioned in previous testimonies, 8 that it was a stick. I talked to our Creator to try to 9 help me understand. I changed my decision. It was a 10 pipe. 11 I live with this feeling day after day. 12 Hour after hour. Month after month. Year after year. 13 Searching inside, looking for an answer. Sam's family 14 was looking for an answer. Sam's family wanted the 15 truth. I went to the hills, I went to the mountains, 16 talking to our Creator about what happened. 17 I stood on a hill, our sacred hill. In 18 the United States -- I stood with our spirits on that 19 hill. We know Little Big Horn. I prayed there, I prayed 20 for mankind to understand our nation, not to treat us 21 like that anymore. I thought about Dudley there. 22 Everywhere I found part of my answer, about why I didn't 23 run and hide. I found part of the answer who I am. I 24 wanted just to know that. 25
621 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE WITNESS: Don't treat us like you 4 don't understand us. It's a terrible feeling to have, 5 the feeling that I had when I picked up that pipe. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. George, would you like to stop 11 for -- take a break for a minutes now? 12 A: No. Sam wants to know what happened 13 and I have to tell them the truth. 14 Q: There's some water there, Mr. George, 15 if you need some water. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's also 17 a Kleenex there, Mr. George, if you'd like to use it. 18 THE WITNESS: When I picked up that pipe, 19 I didn't realize that I would lose friendship, that I 20 would lose a brother. And I went back over that fence, 21 every feeling that I had inside of me left me and I don't 22 want to remember what I'd said after that. 23 I remember telling them that there were 24 people watching them for what they were doing to us; to 25 leave them alone.
631 I heard other comments being yelled at 2 them, about mayflower, then I couldn't hear any more. I 3 couldn't hear any more voices. When a human being 4 reaches that point, I had feelings I can't really put -- 5 I couldn't hear anything any more. All I 6 could see were these police officers in front of me. I 7 can see their eyes right through the shield. I seen the 8 eyes. I wanted to run, I had nowhere to go. My friends 9 were there, my family was there, I had to defend them. I 10 had to defend myself. 11 And they charged. They came forward. I 12 couldn't hear the people that were behind me anymore. I 13 heard one voice saying punch out. When I heard that 14 voice say punch out I knew they were coming to punch me 15 and punch everyone else that was in their way because 16 they had no feelings. They were full of fear, they were 17 scared of the Indians. The Indians had sticks and stones 18 and they had guns. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Always protect yourself. Protect the ones 23 you love behind you at any cost. I raised what I had in 24 my hand and I wanted to run but I -- I couldn't. When I 25 seen that one person blink his eye I swung what I had in
641 my hand, and all I heard was an echo. And I was in a 2 nightmare, a nightmare that I dreamt about, and I was 3 fighting with my nightmare, and voices were talking to 4 me. 5 And I could see strange stars, they were 6 colourful stars. But I tried to get away from the 7 nightmare and they kept me in the circle. I was inside 8 of a circle, fighting with a nightmare. I couldn't feel 9 anything. I had no feeling. I was in a nightmare and in 10 nightmares you don't have feelings. But I heard voices. 11 Then I started feeling, I had a feeling 12 inside of me that came from inside, not from the outside, 13 it came from here on the inside and it started to come 14 through me to the outside. 15 And I seen shadows around me, hitting at 16 me, trying to kill me. That was my dream, they were 17 going to kill you, because they were afraid of you, that 18 you're an Indian, they're going to kill you. So I fought 19 the dream back. 20 Then my dream ended and I realized it was 21 no longer a dream. It got bright. Then I realized where 22 I was. I was in the dirt, with a mouthful of dirt. I 23 was tasting our mother, so I closed my mouth, and tried 24 to get up. 25 Whether those voices told me to say or to
651 give up, a voice came to me and said, give up, tell him 2 to give up. He gave up. So I said that. I told him I 3 give up. Whatever they were doing to me, they -- they 4 were afraid of me. They were afraid of the Indian, 5 because they don't understand them. 6 And I can't remember what happened. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Perhaps, Mr. George, -- 10 A: I couldn't breath anymore. 11 Q: Mr. George, perhaps it would be a 12 good time to take a break. 13 A: I don't need to break. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I would like to tell you what 16 happened. 17 Q: Okay. We'll carry on then. 18 A: When I realized they were trying to 19 arrest me, when reality finally started coming back, I 20 tried to get away and I told them the second time I quit. 21 Something made me stop fighting. So I stopped. And I 22 can't remember. I couldn't feel anything anymore. I 23 think they left me alone at that point because I can't 24 remember. 25 I felt my hair being pulled, then I
661 realized I was being taken somewhere. I don't know if I 2 was being dragged or if they carried me. I don't know if 3 they had handcuffs on me. At that point I found it hard 4 -- difficult to remember that part. At points I couldn't 5 -- there was nothing, blank, I could not remember 6 anything. All I seen was different coloured stars 7 everywhere. 8 I heard voices. It was not their voices. 9 Until I started to realize that they were moving me and 10 then I heard voices, their voices. My feelings started 11 to come back and I started to feel hurt. I hurt all 12 over. And I tried to remember what I did but I could 13 hardly remember parts. I tried to think back what 14 happened, I tried to think about what hap-- what was 15 behind me, what the treatment that the people behind me 16 were getting. 17 When they moved me to -- help me in a 18 vehicle somewhere, it was not a ground, because I heard a 19 door shut. However, they were talking to me, or they 20 were talking to someone else. I heard someone swear. 21 Both when I was on the ground and when I was in the back 22 of that vehicle. If it was savage I heard, it may have 23 been a different English word, but to me it sounded like 24 that, I'm not positive. 25 I kept wanting to go to sleep. I was
671 tired. They moved me to another place. I could feel the 2 vehicle moving. When I was inside that vehicle, I don't 3 know if they were hitting me any more or not. Something 4 told me inside to keep still, don't fight no more, 'cause 5 they're going to get you, so I didn't. 6 When I was in that vehicle, I heard 7 popping noises. I thought it was stones being thrown at 8 the vehicle I was in, then my memory started to slowly 9 come back about what happened before I got to that point. 10 And I remember them angered at the fence, 11 throwing rocks, so I thought they were throwing rocks at 12 the vehicle I was in and they were angry for what the 13 police were doing. 14 And I felt the vehicle moving. And they 15 moved me to another vehicle. I felt tired. There was a 16 lady there in that other vehicle and I realized it was 17 probably an ambulance I was -- my thinking still wasn't 18 very clear. I was trying to remember what had happened. 19 But I told her I wouldn't hurt her. All my anger had 20 left me, and I hope it never returns. 21 And then I went -- stuck into a hospital. 22 I wasn't really sure where, and I was still trying to 23 think. Later, I got -- my feelings started coming back 24 and I was hurting everywhere. But I had no anger, got 25 the last of me.
681 When I was at the hospital, one of the 2 police came up and he asked me to put my hand on some 3 type of device, I remember that. They said you were -- 4 were looking for gunpowder burns, and I refused to touch 5 it. 6 My wife came there and her brother, Rudy, 7 and Roseanne. They came there to look for me. She was 8 the one that told me that Dudley had been shot and he 9 just died. 10 From that point I had to -- I didn't know 11 what to think. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. George, we're 16 going to take a break now for a few minutes and we'll 17 start again after our break. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 19 should take a break now. Mr. George, we're going to take 20 a break now and we'll come back in about fifteen (15) 21 minutes, is that all right? Thank you. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 11:57 a.m.
691 --- Upon resuming at 12:10 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, with 6 your permission, I suggest that we break for lunch now 7 until about 1:30 and resume then? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It makes 9 sense. We're adjourned now until 1:30 and see what the 10 situation is at that time. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 12 sir. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 14 adjourned until 1:30. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 12:11 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 1:31 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 22 George. I have to take you back and ask you some 23 questions about what you told us this morning, and I 24 appreciate that this will be difficult, but I do have to 25 go back and ask some of those questions.
701 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you need 2 a break, or you want a break, or you want to stop, all 3 you have to do is say so, and we'll do it. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: You told us this morning that you -- 8 when you came out of the Park you had this steel pipe in 9 your hand and the police officers charged and that you, I 10 believe you said you swung the -- the pipe and heard an 11 echo. 12 And can you tell me what the -- a little 13 bit more about what the echo was that you heard? 14 A: The echo was of glass breaking. 15 Q: And the -- do you recall where you 16 were holding the steel pipe when you swung it at the 17 police officer? Was it over your head, was at the side? 18 A: I just -- probably to my side. 19 Q: And do you recall, Mr. George, saying 20 to the police officers when you were out in the sandy 21 parking lot, I will take you on, you fucking assholes? 22 A: I never made that remark whatsoever. 23 Q: Okay. And can you tell us -- point 24 out on the Exhibit P-109 where you were standing, if you 25 can recall, when you -- you and the police off -- the
711 police came together? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And could you take the black marker 6 and put an "X" and it would be the Number 9, I believe is 7 the next number -- 8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: -- beside where you were standing 12 where you and the police -- you struck -- the police came 13 up to you and you struck the police officer with the -- 14 or you heard the shield breaking, or glass breaking, 15 excuse me? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And after you heard the glass 20 breaking which you had described as an echo, you said 21 that you then entered into a nightmare. And can you tell 22 us what that nightmare was and what you meant by that, 23 Mr. George? 24 A: It seemed like I had had a dream 25 before about being there. I can't explain why but, it
721 was -- like it wasn't real, it was like a dream. When 2 you dream I -- I don't -- I don't think you have any 3 feelings. That's -- it's kind of hard to explain. 4 Q: Do you re -- 5 A: We all have nightmares of different 6 sorts. Some can remember dreams when you wake up, and 7 some can't. 8 Q: Do you re -- no, I appreciate that, 9 but -- and do you recall when after you -- the sound of 10 the shattering glass, what happened? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And do you recall being grabbed by a 13 police officer or police officers? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And do you recall being on the ground 16 in the sandy parking lot beyond what you told us before? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you tell us what was -- what 19 happened when you were -- from what you can recall when 20 you were on the ground in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: I was -- I know I was trying to get 22 away and they were hitting at me. 23 Q: And when you say that you were trying 24 to get away, were you struggling with the police 25 officers?
731 A: I was -- I was on my back and I 2 believe I was trying to more or less kick at them and 3 protect my face because I knew they were hitting at me. 4 Q: And so that the police officers were 5 striking you with their batons and you were kicking at 6 the police officers? 7 A: I was trying to defend myself, yes. 8 Q: And do you recall if this is when you 9 were first went on the ground out at the area of number 10 9? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you recognize any of the 13 police officers that were striking you at -- striking 14 you? 15 A: No they -- all I seen was 16 silhouettes. 17 Q: And do you recall moving from the -- 18 the spot you were in in the sandy parking lot at X-9 back 19 towards East Parkway? 20 A: No, not really. 21 Q: And do you know if -- can you recall 22 if -- if you were carried back there or walked back or 23 were dragged back? I know you told us at one point you 24 felt you were being dragged. 25 But can you tell us at this point in time
741 at the beginning how you were moved from X-9 to the back 2 of the -- the west side of the sandy parking lot? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I remember saying that I gave up, 7 that way, maybe twice. They were still hitting me on the 8 back -- 9 Q: And is this -- 10 A: I was on my hands and knees trying to 11 get up and get away. 12 Q: And is it fair to say, Mr. George, 13 that you were struggling still with the police because 14 you were trying to get away? 15 A: That's all I was trying to do. 16 Q: And the -- was this on the west side 17 of the -- the sandy parking lot? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: It was in that area, I don't exactly 22 know where. 23 Q: And at some point, did you observe 24 police officers that were in different uniforms than the 25 riot squad?
751 A: No, I can't say that. I was -- I 2 have a hard time trying to recall what was going on at 3 that time. 4 Q: And do you recall or have any memory 5 of police officers who were not carrying shields around 6 you? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And do you recall anything else that 9 the police officers said to you beyond what you told us 10 this morning? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I think I mentioned I heard voices. 15 I'm think -- trying to think hard of what -- was being 16 said. They may have been talking to each other. They 17 may have been talking to me but, I don't know that. 18 Q: And when you were in, I think you 19 said, the first van you heard popping sounds? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you described the popping sounds 22 as being, you thought they were stones? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And at this point can you recall -- 25 do you remember anything else other than just the popping
761 sounds? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Well I was on my hands and knees. 6 Q: In the van? 7 A: No, it was -- I could still feel sand 8 in my hands. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I could feel something but it wasn't 11 -- anyway I was in the sand somewhere. And I was being 12 kicked. I believe I was being kicked because I couldn't 13 breath. I tried to breath and I couldn't breath. And I 14 felt -- I felt, I felt like things across my back, and on 15 my side. 16 I had very little feeling. I had no pain 17 but I still had a sense of some kind of feeling. 18 Q: And I understand -- 19 A: And I blacked out again. I -- I 20 can't remember. 21 Q: But as I understand it, you heard the 22 popping sound when you were in the police van, is that 23 correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the -- you, I take it, assumed it
771 was a police van? 2 A: I don't know. It was a vehicle of 3 some sort -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: -- because I heard a door shut. 6 Q: And you were then -- do you recall 7 hearing any -- the sound of shots? 8 A: No. No, I had a difficult time 9 trying to understand what was going on. 10 Q: And I understand that you were going 11 back and forth into more consciousness and less 12 consciousness during this period of time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you went out from behind the 15 fence into the sandy parking lot, had you been asked to 16 do that by the occupiers? To go speak to the police? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And that was your decision to go out? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you know if any other people 21 came out behind you? Can you recall? 22 A: There may have been. I... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
781 A: I'm trying to think real hard. When 2 I was standing outside that fence I seen shadows, but I 3 don't know if they were on the same side of the fence I 4 was on or if they were still on the other side of that 5 fence. All I seen was shadows behind me. 6 Q: Okay. And you've told us this 7 morning that you were moved to what you believed to be an 8 ambulance and there was a -- a -- a woman in the -- in 9 this vehicle? Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you recall -- and you said that 12 you told the person that she shouldn't be frightened that 13 you're not going to hurt her or words to that effect; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And why did you say that? 17 A: The feeling that was inside of me 18 before that had left me. 19 Q: And the feeling was, as you told us 20 this morning, the feeling of anger and -- and upset had 21 left you by this time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do you recall whether you were 24 conscious? Do you remember the trip in the ambulance 25 beyond what you've just told us? About speaking to the
791 woman in the -- in the -- the ambulance or what you 2 assumed to be the ambulance? Which we know now was an 3 ambulance? 4 A: I can't recognize the person that was 5 in there. It was bright. I don't exactly recall what 6 she had said to me -- come back or, you're not going 7 anywhere. I -- I -- whether it was her talking to me or 8 another person, I -- I was -- I had a difficult time 9 trying to think about what happened. I was tired; I 10 wanted to go to sleep. 11 Q: And do you recall saying that you 12 apologized if you hurt anyone? 13 A: I may have said that, yes. 14 Q: And can you recall anything else 15 about this -- the trip in the ambulance to the -- the 16 hospital? 17 A: No, I think I went to sleep. 18 Q: And when you arrived at the hospital 19 -- it was the Strathroy Hospital -- did you realize which 20 hospital it was when you arrived in the ambulance, Mr. 21 George? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? When did you realize that you 24 were in Strathroy? 25
801 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: They were asking me if I knew where I 4 was. 5 Q: Yes...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: At first I didn't -- I didn't know 10 which one I was at, you know. 11 Q: And did they tell you which one you 12 were at? 13 A: Yes, later on they mentioned that we 14 were at -- you were in Strathroy and... 15 Q: And the -- you told us that the 16 police -- the Ontario Provincial Police came to see you 17 or spoke to you at the Strathroy Hospital. How long was 18 that after you arrived, can you recall? 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: Do you know if it was during the 21 morning of the night time after midnight on September 22 7th? 23 A: I have no idea of time when that 24 happened. 25 Q: And how long were you in the
811 Strathroy Hospital? 2 A: That night, the next day, and I 3 believe they let me -- released me from the hospital the 4 day after and I was taken to jail from there. 5 Q: So you were in the hospital for two 6 (2) or two and a half (2 1/2) days? 7 A: Couple of days, a day and a half, two 8 (2) days, somewhere around there. 9 Q: And can you tell us the injuries you 10 had when you arrived at the hospital? 11 A: The biggest injury that I -- I had 12 was inside of me, deep inside of me. I hurt all over, 13 but not as much as I hurt from the biggest injury that -- 14 emotionally. It was the biggest one that -- other than 15 that it was -- I didn't really look in the mirror until 16 later on. 17 I only seen what I could see from my arms 18 and legs. I hurt all over my whole body from physical 19 injuries that you want me to describe? 20 Q: Yes, and I'm going to show you some 21 photographs that were taken at the time, but if you can 22 describe the injuries that we can -- if you could just 23 briefly describe the injuries that you sustained? 24 A: Briefly describe? My arms hurt, both 25 of them. My legs -- I couldn't really look at them at
821 the time until I gone into another room and there was two 2 (2) police officers there. 3 I tried to talk to them and they said 4 nothing to me. I told them that they shouldn't have did 5 that to us down there. No comment. I tried to talk to 6 them but they wouldn't say one (1) word to me, they just 7 sat there. 8 First they were staring at me and then 9 when I tried to talk to them they put their heads down, 10 like they didn't want to hear me. 11 Q: And was this, Mr. George, before or 12 after that you had heard of the fact that Dudley George 13 had passed away? 14 A: It was after. 15 Q: After? And the two (2) -- you were 16 in a hospital room and the two (2) police officers were 17 there with you in the hospital room? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And was it the room that you stayed 20 in? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And how long were the two (2) police 23 officers in the room? 24 A: All the while. 25 Q: While you were there?
831 A: Yes. 2 Q: And perhaps what I'll do, Mr. George, 3 I understand that Dr. Mar, I anticipate will say that 4 your injuries included an abrasion over the eye, do you 5 recall that? 6 A: Later on, yes. 7 Q: And that you had a bruise in the 8 middle of your forehead, through here? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that you had swelling around your 11 left eye? 12 A: Later on, yes. 13 Q: And that you had tenderness over your 14 cheek bone? 15 A: My whole head hurt. 16 Q: Okay. And that you had bruising and 17 tenderness over the bridge of your nose? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you had a swollen upper lip that 20 had to be stitched? 21 A: Yes. I seen blood on my hands I 22 realized that I had been cut somewhere. I didn't really 23 know exactly where. I started feeling around and I knew 24 I -- my lip had been cut. 25 Q: And your -- your lip on the inside
841 was swollen and tender, both the lip and the gum, do you 2 recall that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that you had tenderness under 5 your chin? Was your chin sore? 6 A: Yes. A couple of my teeth were loose 7 also. 8 Q: Your teeth were loose too? That you 9 had redness and tenderness over the -- your right upper 10 chest? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You had tenderness and abrasions on 13 your right thigh, do you recall that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Your left knee was tender with 16 abrasions on your knee? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Your left shin was tender and had 19 abrasions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Your lower abdomen was tender? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You had abrasions and tenderness to 24 your hands and wrists? 25 A: Yes.
851 Q: And was it both wrists or one wrist 2 in particular? 3 A: Maybe one (1). The other one (1) was 4 also sore but not as much as the one (1) that was -- 5 could hardly move it. 6 Q: And which wrist was that, Mr. George? 7 Do you recall? 8 A: I believe it was my right arm. 9 Q: And you had a laceration which was 10 stitched at the top of your skull -- on your head? The 11 back of your head? 12 A: At the back, yes. 13 Q: And you had bruisings and abrasions 14 as well on your head? 15 A: Yes, I had bumps all over my head. 16 Q: And you had what Dr. Mar described as 17 a linear bruise with abrasions under your arm. Do you 18 recall the bruises under your arm? 19 A: I couldn't see, I could only feel. 20 Q: But it felt sore? 21 A: All over, yes. 22 Q: And you had bruising and tenderness 23 in a wide area over the posterior of your left shoulder, 24 the back of your left shoulder, do you recall that? 25 A: Yes.
861 Q: And you had bruising on your back? 2 A: I hurt on my back but I couldn't see 3 anything until later. 4 Q: And you had tenderness, swelling and 5 abrasions to your right forearm? I guess that's the arm 6 that you just told us about. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you had a decreased range of 9 motion with your right wrist, that's what you just told 10 us about as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And do you recall any other injuries 13 that I haven't listed? 14 A: When I -- after I was moved from one 15 (1) room to another where these two (2) police officers - 16 - they never left the room, and I believe that the Band 17 lawyers came in and had some questions for me. 18 Q: But what I was asking was, did you 19 have -- were there -- I've listed the injuries, did you 20 have any other injuries, physical injuries? 21 A: Yes. I had others but I didn't 22 really notice them until I was moved from one (1) room 23 and it got daylight and I couldn't -- I couldn't rest 24 comfortable because I hurt all over. So I had to sit up 25 and try to move around and -- because I couldn't lay
871 down. I found it very difficult trying to lay down. 2 Or I -- later on, yes, I got up and they 3 moved me into another room. And when daylight came I 4 looked in the mirror and my legs hurt and I looked at my 5 legs and there was skin taken off my legs, both of my 6 legs, and I hurt, the back of my legs hurt. 7 And I tried to turn to look at what had 8 happened. 9 Q: And did you have any injuries in your 10 groin area? 11 A: I hurt there, yes. 12 Q: And the -- you say that you were 13 moved to another room and -- and the second room that you 14 were moved to, the two (2) police officers were no longer 15 inside the room? 16 A: No, they were right outside the door. 17 Q: So they had moved when you moved from 18 one room to the -- the next, the police officers were 19 moved to outside the door? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Mr. George, I'm going to show you
881 some photographs that are part of the number of 2 photographs, Commissioner, that were taken by the SIU and 3 for the benefit of My Friends these photographs are found 4 at Inquiry Document 1005720 and they're pages 323 to 345. 5 But I've only selected -- there's only 6 eleven (11) photographs and they were the same 7 photographs used at one of the trials. And perhaps 8 before I begin the -- I've got a copy of the photographs 9 and a -- an electronic version, Commissioner, of the 10 eleven (11) photographs. Perhaps we could mark the next 11 exhibit, it would be Exhibit 110. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-110. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit P- 14 110? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-110. What we'll do 16 is, Commissioner, I'll give you a copy of the original so 17 that you could take a look at these as we go along and 18 we'll mark those originals. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-110: Document 1005720, pages 223 - 21 245, 11 photographs of Mr. 22 Cecil George taken by SIU, 23 September 07/95 14-2a, 14-4a, 24 14-5a, 14-7a, 14-8a, 14-12a, 25 14-13a, 14-14a, 14-17a, 14-
891 19a, 14-22a, and CD ROM of 2 photographs, CD marked 3 "Longboat/Alliance" 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And, Mr. George, I take it that -- I 7 know this is difficult, but this is a photograph of you? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the photograph, this next 10 photograph which has got a number. It's easier, the -- 11 the different numbers, it's Photograph 14-5(A), and 12 that's a photograph of your back and you can see the 13 bruising on -- on your back. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it's not clear in this picture, 16 but there's other abrasions down on your lower back. 17 That doesn't come across clearly on the screen. And this 18 again, it's Photograph 14-4(A), that's a photograph of 19 your right side? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your -- in this Photograph 14- 22 4(A), your wrist has been bandaged up and your hand had 23 been -- your right hand and wrist and forearm had been 24 bandaged up; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
901 Q: And the next photograph is Photograph 2 14-7(A) and this again is a photograph of your upper 3 right arm? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you -- the next photograph 6 which is 14-8(A), I believe shows the cut in your head -- 7 one (1) of the cuts in your head? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And these photographs were taken by 10 the SIU? 11 A: Yes, they were. 12 Q: And was it the same night or the next 13 day 14 A: It was the next day. 15 Q: And then next photograph, which is 16 Photograph 14-14(A) shows a bruise that's not as clear on 17 the screen on your upper right chest? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And 14-12(A) shows -- again, it's not 20 as clear on the screen, but there's a bruise on your 21 upper -- at the -- your left shoulder -- at the back of 22 your left shoulder? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And 14-13(A) shows a bruise -- again, 25 it's not as clear on the screen -- on your upper right
911 shoulder? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And 14-17(A) shows the -- your lip 4 and the -- your swollen lip and the stitches in your lip? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And Photograph 14-19(A) shows -- and 7 it's not as clear on the screen, but -- bruises to your 8 right leg? 9 A: Yes, I had them on both legs. 10 Q: And you can see bruises on your other 11 leg as well and Photograph 14-22(A) shows marks and 12 bruises on the back of your legs? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that was back to the -- so you 15 told us that you were in the hospital for two and a half 16 (2 1/2) days and the -- at the end of that period you 17 were moved to a police station? 18 A: Yes, I was. 19 Q: And which police station were you 20 moved to, Mr. George? 21 A: I believe first they -- they took me 22 to a police station in Strathroy and they put me in a 23 cell out there for not very long. I'm trying to recall 24 who else was there in the cell, but I can't remember. 25 Q: Can you tell me before we go on, how
921 long you were -- the bruising -- how long you were sore - 2 - your body was sore from the physical injuries? How 3 long did that take to heal up? 4 A: A week and a half -- two (2) weeks. 5 Q: You started to feel better after a 6 week and a half to two (2) weeks? 7 A: Yes, after all the swelling went down 8 and all the real dark purple went away, then a week and a 9 half -- two (2) weeks. 10 Q: And do you, today, have any physical 11 -- any physical injuries that are still with you as a 12 result of what happened on that evening? 13 A: Other than scars that were -- that 14 were left. 15 Q: And -- and the scars -- the scars -- 16 where are the physical scars? 17 A: On my face. 18 Q: Okay. And when you were in the 19 hospital and the two (2) police officers were outside 20 your hospital room, were you told that you were in 21 custody? 22 A: I believe when I was in one (1) of 23 the rooms with the -- the two (2) police officers, I was 24 told I was charged with attempted murder and assault and 25 another charge. I'm not really sure about what they told
931 me and I just know that I was under -- being under -- I 2 was arrested for that. 3 Q: And when you went to the Strathroy 4 Police Station, were you told there what the charges 5 were? 6 A: I can't even recall what they said to 7 me there. I didn't really feel like talking to them at 8 that point. 9 Q: Okay. And when you were speaking to 10 the police officers in the -- when they were in the room 11 with you at the Strathroy Hospital, I know that you 12 indicated that the police didn't say anything to you, did 13 you tell the police that you were sorry if anyone was 14 hurt? Do you recall that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And why did you say that to the 17 police? 18 A: To let them know that we're not 19 really the type of people that some picture us to be. We 20 -- we can apologize like anyone else if we -- if you feel 21 that something went wrong or someone was hurt. So I did, 22 yes I -- I told them I was sorry. I didn't have to but I 23 wanted them to know that what I had felt. 24 I was feeling bad enough in there, but yet 25 I still told that to him when I did -- I don't know which
941 ones it was. I -- there was a female officer in that 2 room with me and I can't even -- I don't even know -- I 3 wouldn't even be able to describe her today, the one that 4 were, and I -- my mind went kind of blank for a while and 5 -- if she came up to me or if they came up to me and 6 stood in front of me, I wouldn't even be able to identify 7 who they were. 8 Q: And while you were at the Strathroy 9 Hospital you spoke to the SIU I guess on the next day 10 when they took the pictures? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And did anyone at anytime ever 13 apologize to you for the injuries that you suffered? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And after you were taken from the -- 16 taken to the Strathroy Hospital -- from the Strathroy 17 Hospital to the Strathroy Detachment of the OPP, you said 18 you weren't there very long. Was it less than a day? 19 A: It wasn't very long, maybe an hour if 20 that. 21 Q: And then where were you moved to? 22 A: Then I was -- moved to -- they said 23 they were taking me to Sarnia, and they put me in an 24 unmarked vehicle with plain clothes police officers. I 25 thought they were RCMP. I -- I didn't know because they
951 were -- and I seen a lot of cruisers around the area. 2 They were in front of us, and they were behind us. 3 Q: So that you were in a-- it was an 4 unmarked police car? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there was a cruiser -- a marked 7 police car -- cruiser in front of you and a marked 8 cruiser behind you, from what you could see? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And where were you taken to? 11 A: I was taken to Sarnia -- to the 12 county court buildings. 13 Q: Yes...? 14 A: And once there they put me in a room 15 by myself, and they were -- I guess they were trying to 16 get me in to speak to a Judge or, they didn't really say 17 what they were going to do with me. 18 And then they took me out of there, out of 19 the room by myself, and they handcuffed me to another 20 group of prisoners that were outside the Courtroom. 21 And the prisoner I got handcuffed to, he 22 was a Native -- Native fellow, and he just looked at me 23 and he said, are you Slippery? And I just nodded my 24 head, yes. 25 And the one -- the police officers that
961 took me there, they -- they uncuffed me. There was 2 orders to take me separate from everyone else. 3 Q: And how did you know that, Mr. 4 George? 5 A: I heard them. 6 Q: Okay. You heard the police officers 7 say that you should be separated and taken by yourself? 8 A: Yes. So they took the handcuffs off 9 me that I was handcuffed to the other Native fellow, I 10 don't know who he was, I -- he knew who I was, but I 11 didn't know who he was. There was some other non-Natives 12 there that were -- they were taking them through the 13 tunnel area to the County Jail from the Court buildings. 14 And they took me away from that group of 15 prisoners that they had and put me in another room, and 16 they said they want to -- I was over listening that they 17 wanted me segregated. 18 So they took the first prisoners through 19 the tunnel, and they took me through there by myself, and 20 on the way over I heard them having conversations that 21 they wanted the holding area cleared of all inmates. 22 When I got there, there was no other 23 inmates in that holding cell area, and they put me in and 24 they said they wanted me segregated from all the other 25 inmates, and I was wondering why. It was like they were
971 trying to hide me from -- from something. 2 Q: And were you put in a segregated 3 cell? 4 A: Yes. I was put in, they call it, the 5 hole. The inmates in the County Jail refer that place as 6 to the hole, they call it segregation. So that's where I 7 was put, I was put in -- they put me in the hole. 8 It's a isolated cell away from all the 9 other inmates, so that you come in -- with no contact 10 with any other inmates except for the Guards. 11 Q: And, how long were you at the Sarnia 12 jail? 13 A: About a day and a half, two (2) days. 14 Q: And then were released? 15 A: Yes. There was -- I was sitting in 16 that cell talking to our Creator, praying, and I had 17 tobacco in my hand and I was wondering where I could put 18 it and I just stood with the tobacco in my hand. 19 And then the door opened, I heard the door 20 open and there was a -- someone came in and asked me how 21 I was doing, and I never really recognized the person 22 before and I just thought he might have been another 23 police officer, that came in and asked me how I was doing 24 and I told him I was alright. 25 And at that time I just stood there,
981 wondering what to do. I was praying for everything that 2 had happened and I heard the door open. And they said 3 you have someone to visit you. 4 And my sister was there. They took me 5 down to the visiting room. 6 Q: And that's your sister, Gina? 7 A: Jessie. 8 Q: Jessie? 9 A: She was there at the visiting room, 10 and I told -- she was asking me how I was. So I made a 11 request to the guards that, I found that, very strange 12 that they answered my request to hand the tobacco over 13 that I held in my hand, to my sister, so she could put 14 that tobacco in the grass somewhere under a tree, and 15 they give it to her and I thought that was kind of odd. 16 Then they took me back to the cell. 17 Q: And then you were eventually released 18 after the two (2) or two and half (2 1/2) days? 19 A: I was there for a while. I lost 20 track of time in there. 21 Q: And I understand that what you were 22 actually charged with was assault with a weapon, assault 23 a police officer and mischief, and the mischief related 24 to being on the sandy parking lot. Is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
991 Q: And you went to trial on those 2 charges and the charges were dismissed? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is there anything else that you 5 would like to tell the Commissioner before you and I are 6 finished, Mr. George? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I keep going back to why -- why 11 weren't some native police involved in that. They had -- 12 they had enough time to call the native police to come in 13 and perhaps solve that or help to solve what was going on 14 but -- because all of the things that I went through, 15 what I mentioned, my criminal record was brought up. 16 That made me look like a bad guy, and I 17 probably was a bad guy in the eyes of certain 18 individuals, but I went through times where I was 19 arrested by different police officers, city police 20 officers from Sarnia. 21 I got -- got my hair pulled. I got hit 22 maybe once with a stick, twice. And they pile-bagged me. 23 There was a lot of police at one time when I got arrested 24 and they just pile-bagged me and held me down and that 25 was it.
1001 I can't understand why they never involved 2 the native police into dealing with natives. It worked 3 before on Kettle Point when I was in -- when I tried to 4 help my brother Darryl, I felt it worked. 5 And I felt it would have worked at -- that 6 night that it happened down there but it didn't. But it 7 -- if some of these charges that were brought on to me in 8 my past. I got my hair pulled over stolen property that 9 I didn't even know was stolen property that I didn't even 10 know it was stolen. I got dragged around over things 11 that should have never been done to me. 12 I was treated -- a fellow who wasn't 13 treated right for a bag of stolen french fries and a can 14 of pop I got dragged around by the hair. For a bicycle I 15 didn't know that was stolen, I got dragged around by the 16 hair and I tried to tell them that I didn't know it was 17 stolen. 18 Q: Can you -- 19 A: I feel that the police need to look 20 better to understand an individual when he -- not only 21 Natives, they need to have a little bit more care inside 22 of them. They don't need to go beat on some people and I 23 felt that there was enough police officers down there and 24 if they felt that I did something wrong, they could have 25 pile bagged me and held me down, and I...
1011 Q: What do you mean by pile bagged? 2 A: More than one (1) jump on you and 3 hold you down. I had that happen to me several times. 4 And sure I got -- you know, my anger can take a person so 5 far and all through these times that I've been arrested 6 and got my hair pulled out, I -- I never hated anyone for 7 it. 8 If I did something wrong then I guess it 9 was my own -- but I think they need to think more about 10 the job that they do and the people they deal with. You 11 can't -- you can't assume that these people are wild 12 because what you do to a person is what you get back. 13 And I knew I -- I knew I did wrong by picking up that 14 pipe and hitting -- striking at those officers. 15 But yet I did it to protect what I felt 16 needed to be protected. My sister was behind me, like I 17 mentioned. My friends were there. And the police gave 18 me permission to go on that road. Sure I went into that 19 Park because I cared about what was going on. 20 Q: When you say the police gave you 21 permission to go on the road, it was a public road, was 22 it not? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And so what do you mean by the police 25 gave you permission to go on the road?
1021 A: The first time when I -- I went down 2 there. But the second time is when -- 3 Q: Oh I see, you mean permission by 4 letting you through the checkpoint? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But when we were denied access the 8 second time, I knew that something was not right. And 9 you couldn't hold -- you couldn't hold anyone back if 10 their family's there. No matter what you do. Especially 11 when you see police officers with guns, with rifles. You 12 know something's not right. 13 Q: And can you tell us, Mr. George, what 14 the impact on your family was of the events of September 15 6th? 16 A: It was not only my family that was 17 impacted on what had happened down there. That spread 18 across the whole -- the whole area down there. We felt 19 bad enough on Kettle Point. There was anger for what 20 happened. There was sadness. There was many feelings 21 surrounding that. 22 I just -- I can't understand why our 23 Native police weren't involved in that at the beginning. 24 Why were they left out? They were brought into that area 25 after that happened. Why did they bring them in after
1031 that happened? It was too late, why didn't they bring 2 them in before that? 3 When I -- I don't know where I was at, at 4 the time, if I was still in the back of that police 5 vehicle or the ambulance. My wife came back looking for 6 me and out of all the fear that she had that was inside 7 of her taking place. And she came there looking for me 8 and she went right through the police road check -- road 9 check, looking for me, because they were there and they 10 heard the shooting. 11 Even when she went to the police station 12 in Forest to look for me, because someone told her that 13 the police had taken me. When they arrived there, all 14 they seen was police everywhere. They had it barricaded 15 off, and when she drove up to the police station, she 16 drove into nothing but firearms being pointed at her 17 from... 18 My brother was there and my sister-in- 19 law -- 20 Q: And your sister-in-law's name was -- 21 is? 22 A: Deanna (phonetic). 23 Q: Deanna? And her last name? 24 A: Bressette. 25 Q: Bressette?
1041 A: They got pulled over with the truck 2 and all Roseanne wanted to know where I was and they 3 dragged them out of the truck and they dragged my brother 4 Jeremiah out of the truck and they threw him on the 5 ground at gunpoint and they pulled her out and made her 6 get on the ground at gunpoint. 7 And they moved them into the police 8 station and stood them against the wall at gunpoint and 9 they had no guns. They went there to look -- to see 10 where I was. Why were they treated like that? They 11 didn't need to be treated like that. 12 All they had to be told was I was under 13 arrest and I was taken to the hospital and they didn't 14 need to point guns at her. There was many things that 15 happened that a lot of people don't know about. 16 One (1) of the questions you asked me 17 about my family was my direct family, my sons, my 18 daughters, how they were affected by it. It was -- 19 they're still affected. 20 They hide it. They wish not to bring it 21 up, because they know probably how I feel about it. One 22 (1) of my sons -- both of them -- no one knows what we 23 had to go through after that, because they thought the 24 police were coming to our house next to get us. Deeply 25 affected and that is a family matter that I wish not to
1051 discuss here. 2 Q: Thank you. And lastly, you've told 3 us some things, but one (1) of the jobs that the 4 Commission is, I think you understand, is to make 5 recommendations to avoid violence in similar 6 circumstances in the future. 7 And you've told us that you think more 8 involvement of Aboriginal police officers would be a good 9 thing. I think that you've told us that -- I interpret 10 it as more education for police officers and 11 understanding of other -- other people would be a good 12 thing. 13 Is there any other -- other -- have I 14 stated, have I stated correctly what you've taken what 15 you've said correctly, Mr. George? 16 A: I feel that when -- when there's a 17 request come from -- from individuals, when they come 18 together and they feel they have a right to come 19 together, especially with -- you know, what we've been 20 gone through on Kettle Point and Stony Point, is that 21 there needs to be some kind of system by the government 22 set up so that these people can be heard. 23 Sure the government was willing to discuss 24 matters with the elected Council but there's people that 25 need to be heard also.
1061 There needs to be some way so that these 2 people can be heard. It will solve a lot of frustration, 3 a lot of anger and it will save a lot -- a lot of hurt. 4 No one needs to get hurt. There needs to be more 5 communication with the system that we have, education 6 like you said. 7 Maybe then there'll be less hurt. 8 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. George. The 9 -- I have now finished my questions and the other lawyers 10 have the opportunity to ask you some questions. I know 11 that you understand that. And perhaps it would be a good 12 idea if we could have a short break -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 14 before we do, we'll sort of do a canvas around. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's do a 17 quick canvas around and then we'll have an afternoon 18 break. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 20 Mr. George. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Those who are 22 intending to cross-examine Mr. George, please indicate by 23 standing up. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We can't hear you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry.
1071 If you're going to cross-examine, stand up so I can get 2 an idea. Thank you very kindly. How long do you think 3 you might be? 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Probably five (5) 5 minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 7 minutes on behalf of the Aazhoodena. I understand that 8 the OPP and the OPPA are going to switch orders. 9 How long do you think you might be, Ms. 10 Tuck-Jackson? 11 MS. TUCK-JACKSON: Thirty (30) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 13 Jones? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: One (1) to two (2) 15 minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 17 Downard? 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Thirty (30) minutes 19 to an hour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 We'll take an afternoon break and we'll start the cross- 22 examination right after. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay, thank you. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.
1081 2 --- Upon recessing at 2:37 p.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 2:56 p.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. My name 10 is Jackie Esmonde, I'm one (1) of the lawyers 11 representing the Aazhoodena and George Family group which 12 includes some of the children of Dan and Melva George. I 13 just have a very few questions for you this afternoon. 14 First, you've told us that you were 15 walking down East Parkway Drive and you were going down 16 the road to see if you could see what the police were 17 doing. 18 Can I ask you were smoking while you were 19 walking down the road? 20 A: I may have been, yes. I can't 21 recall. 22 Q: And you've told us how worried you 23 were for your friends and family who were occupying the 24 Park? 25 A: Yes.
1091 Q: Can you tell me what were afraid was 2 going to happen? What did you think the police were 3 coming down the road to do? 4 A: To arrest them. Especially when I 5 seen the -- the rifles that they had when I left that 6 area before I went back to Kettle Point. Usually when I 7 -- when you see guns like that you know they have them 8 there for a reason and that's when I really started 9 thinking, well, what was taking place. 10 Q: Were you concerned that the police 11 might enter the Park area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Did you have any reason to believe 14 that you couldn't be in the sandy parking lot that night? 15 A: Did I believe that I had no reason? 16 Q: Did the police say anything to you 17 that -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- about being in the sandy parking 20 lot? 21 A: No, except for we were denied access 22 on my way there the second time they had. But I thought 23 it might have been no-one was allowed in the area which 24 they were -- a meeting area where they were. That's kind 25 of what I had thought.
1101 Q: So if I understand you then, you -- 2 you thought that the police didn't want people in the 3 area around the -- 4 A: Around where they were. 5 Q: -- the parking lot, that -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- the MNR parking lot? 8 A: That's what I thought at that time, 9 yes. 10 Q: Okay. Okay, now you've told us about 11 how you went out the second time from the Park into the 12 sandy parking lot, once the police had backed up to what 13 you've marked as a number 5? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you heard the words "punch out" 16 and the police then started moving forward? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that -- were they moving very 19 quickly? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Would you describe them as running? 22 A: Kind of a real fast pace, yes. They 23 didn't walk real slow, they kind of rushed in. 24 Q: And then you've described how you 25 came into contact with a police officer. Was that -- can
1111 you recall today if that was somebody who would have been 2 in the front line of the police that were moving towards 3 you? 4 A: Yes, it was. 5 Q: There was more than one (1) line? 6 A: Yes, there was two (2). 7 Q: And you came into contact with an 8 officer from the first line? 9 A: Perhaps several of them. I had -- I 10 don't recall how many I came in contact with. I know it 11 was the first line of police officers. 12 Q: And in your memories from what 13 happened from then on, you're on the ground? 14 A: Yes, I believe I was. 15 Q: And I just wanted to clarify one (10 16 other point. In your testimony earlier today you spoke 17 about hearing the word "savage". 18 Do I understand that you heard a police 19 officer calling you a savage? 20 A: It may have sounded like that. He 21 may have been talking to someone else, but it sounded 22 like, yes, that word. 23 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Those are 24 all of my questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
1121 Ms. Esmonde. I think Ms. Jones is up now. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: Good afternoon Mr. George. My name's 7 Karen Jones and I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the 8 Ontario Provincial Police Association. 9 Mr. George, I'm going to take a little bit 10 longer with you because you're sort of in a unique 11 position as a Councillor and yet you had some dealings 12 with both Kettle and Stony Point Band and with the 13 occupiers that I wanted to ask you about. So I'll take a 14 little bit longer than other people have. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: If you get tired, you should let me 17 know. 18 A: No, it's okay. 19 Q: Okay. I also wanted to say, Mr. 20 George, that what you did today was a very hard thing and 21 I really appreciate your honesty and I know that we all 22 do and we know how hard it is. So thank you very much. 23 A: Thank you. 24 Q: Mr. George, I just -- I wanted to 25 start out though, first, with the night of September the
1131 6th and you've told us what you can recall when you went 2 out into the sandy parking lot with your metal bar and I 3 just wanted to make sure that I have the sequence of 4 events right and I understand what happened after that. 5 Okay? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can you hear me okay? 8 A: I think you need to speak just a 9 little louder, I -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- I have a problem hearing with -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- my right ear. 14 Q: Okay. You had told us, Mr. George, 15 that when you went out in the sandy parking lot you were 16 really overcome with anger at that moment in time. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And you had picked up the 20 metal pipe before you went over the fence. And one (1) 21 of the things, Mr. George, that sometimes happens to 22 people when they're full of anger or they're in a rage, 23 is that they have a hard time remembering exactly what 24 happened. 25 Does that -- is that consistent with what
1141 you -- what happened with you? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And the reason I'm asking you 4 that is because much of what you said about what you did 5 when you went out in the sandy parking lot, is really 6 similar to what the police officer said who was -- who 7 you hit with the metal pipe. But he said a couple of 8 other things as well and I just wanted to see if what he 9 says lines up with what you recall or what might have 10 happened. 11 And the person I'm referring to is a 12 police officer called Wade LeCroix and he said that what 13 he recalled was that he recalled you and other people 14 coming over the fence and I think you've told us there 15 might have been people around you, but you didn't recall. 16 Is that right? 17 A: Yes, I kind of looked behind -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- and like I mentioned, they -- I 20 don't know if they were on the same side of the fence I 21 was on when I crossed to that turnstile, all I -- all I 22 seen was shadow, but -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- I don't know what side of the 25 fence they were on.
1151 Q: Okay. And what the police officer 2 says is that when you were coming towards the police, and 3 you had your metal or your -- your metal pole, that you 4 were sort of swinging it to the left and to the right. 5 And that what happened when you did that, was it caused 6 the front line of police officers to sort of split in the 7 middle. Do you recall that? 8 A: No, I -- I don't -- I don't believe 9 that I was swinging and -- swinging that object that I 10 had in my hand in that fashion. I -- I believe I was 11 just standing there. 12 Q: Okay. And what he says then is that 13 you swung the pole over your head and you swung it 14 towards his head and he raised his shield up. 15 Do you recall that? 16 A: No, I -- I believe I -- I didn't 17 swing it over my head, but I knew I swung it like you 18 were playing baseball. 19 Q: Okay. So you had two (2) hands on 20 the metal pole when you swung it? 21 A: Yes, I believe -- 22 Q: You were holding it like a baseball 23 bat? 24 A: Yes, I -- 25 Q: Yeah?
1161 A: I think -- I believe that's what 2 happened. That -- 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: That -- I don't think I swung it out 5 directly over my head, I'm -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- trying to think. No, I -- I 8 believe I swung it like one plays ball. 9 Q: Okay. And what he says then is that 10 when you hit, he says that he raised his shield up when 11 the iron -- or the metal bar was coming towards him and 12 when the metal bar hit his shield, it cracked the shield. 13 Do you recall that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. You've told us that after you 16 swung the pole you heard a crack that sounded like glass 17 breaking. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You do recall that? And you've told 20 us after that that it was like a nightmare and you were 21 fighting in a nightmare and you were talking about the 22 time when the police were arresting you. Is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. And when I listened to you 25 talk about it, Mr. George, it sounded like when you were
1171 in that state, it was hard for you to get a sense of what 2 was going on around you. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. And I also heard you talking 5 about trying to get away from the police, kicking at them 6 and being on your hands and knees. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And I anticipate that we'll 9 hear from the police that you were struggling and kicking 10 and trying to get away from them, so that would be 11 consistent with what you remember. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And then you told us that you 14 stopped fighting, and after you stopped fighting they 15 left you alone. 16 A: I think they might have hit me again, 17 'cause I kind of think -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- at that -- at that time, I know I 20 told them I give up, -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- I still felt they were hitting me. 23 Q: Okay. And do you -- do you remember 24 getting -- having handcuffs being put on your arms or on 25 your legs?
1181 A: No. 2 Q: You don't recall that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you 5 said, Mr. George, that you can't recall much of the trip 6 to the hospital; is that right? 7 A: Bits and pieces, I remember a -- a 8 lady talking to me and...I felt really tired. 9 Q: Yes. And one of the things I wanted 10 to ask you, Mr. George, it looked like from the photos 11 that we saw, that at the time you had quite long hair? 12 Hair that went down almost to your waist? 13 A: I had long hair -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- most of my life. 16 Q: Sure. Was your hair loose that 17 night, the night of September the 6th? 18 A: Yes -- no, I had a -- usually keep it 19 -- pony-tailed it all the time. 20 Q: Okay. And Mr. Millar asked you some 21 questions about what you saw and what your injuries were 22 when you were at the hospital, and you've told us a 23 little bit about the fact that you had a cut on your 24 upper lip...? 25 A: Yes, I could feel that.
1191 Q: Okay. Okay. 2 A: My lip was swollen and I had -- it 3 had been cut. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I couldn't see until later when I -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- looked in the mirror. 8 Q: And I understand from looking at the 9 medical reports that it took two (2) or three (3) 10 stitches to close that cut? Did you -- 11 A: Yeah, something like that. 12 Q: Yes. And in terms of the cut on the 13 back of your head, I understand that it took three (3) 14 sutures to close that cut; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes. And I understand from looking 17 at your medical record, Mr. George, that you didn't have 18 any broken bones? 19 A: NO. 20 Q: And you didn't have any internal 21 injuries? 22 A: I hurt inside for quite a while after 23 that. It's -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- I started getting sharp pains and
1201 then -- excuse me -- it led to a point where I had to be 2 admitted into the hospital and I had surgery. 3 Q: Right. And I -- I've looked at your 4 medical record, Mr. George, and I understand at that time 5 you had pancreatitis? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yes. And the doctors thought that it 8 was caused by gallstones? 9 A: They're the medical professions, I -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Yes, I guess. 12 Q: Yes. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And I wanted to take you back before 17 you went out into the sandy parking lot, because you had 18 told Mr. Millar when you looked out over the sandy 19 parking lot that you saw the line of police that were on 20 the west side of the parking lot. And I think you drew 21 the line behind you with the 5. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And you also said that you 24 saw, and I just want to make sure I understand what you 25 did see, people behind that line in the cottage area, and
1211 people on the sandy hill to the south of the parking lot. 2 And you marked that as a 7 on that diagram. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yeah. And could -- can you help us 5 understood, Mr. George, the people that you saw on the 6 hill by the sandy hill at the south of the parking lot, 7 and up north by the cottages? 8 I take it from what you said, that what 9 you could really see was outlines of people? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yeah. So you couldn't see who they 12 were or what kind -- or any -- anything more about them? 13 A: They didn't have shields like the 14 ones that were standing almost on the roadway on the edge 15 of the parking lot. 16 Q: Sure, sure. Could you see what they 17 were wearing? 18 A: They were dressed in dark uniforms. 19 Q: Okay. Could they have been dark 20 clothes? 21 A: They were darker clothes, yes. 22 Q: Yeah? Okay. And can you give us 23 some idea about how many figures you would have seen in 24 or around the sand pile to the south of the sandy parking 25 lot?
1221 A: It wasn't -- it wasn't a lot, three 2 (3) or four (4) maybe. There wasn't a lot of them there. 3 They were mostly to my front and to my right. That would 4 have been around numbers five (5) and six (6). 5 Q: Right. And in terms of what you saw 6 of the people who were up to the -- in the cottage area, 7 can you -- again can you give us some estimation about 8 how many figures you saw there? 9 A: There wasn't very many up there. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I seen a couple moving but -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- I was mostly focussing on directly 14 -- that was -- the ones that were directly in front of 15 me. 16 Q: Sure. And did they have dark clothes 17 as well or could you tell what they were wearing? 18 A: They were dressed in darker clothes, 19 yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: But I didn't see any reflection of 22 shields or like the ones that were standing directly in 23 front of -- in front of us, on the road. 24 Q: Right. Whoever it was on the sandy 25 pile and in the cottage area was dressed differently than
1231 the police were dressed. 2 A: They were dressed darker. Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And, Mr. George, one of the 4 things that happens in these proceedings because so many 5 people give evidence and -- and people have different 6 recollections, is that they -- they talk about events a 7 little bit differently. And I just wanted to let you 8 know in a couple of areas what other people have said, 9 and see what your views are about that. 10 You had told us when the police sort of 11 did the first rush towards the fence, you told us that 12 they went right up to the fence, is that right? 13 A: Yes, they were leaning right over the 14 fence. 15 Q: Okay. And we've heard from a number 16 of people who were in the Park at the time and some say 17 that the police came up to the fence. Others say that 18 the police didn't, and for example, Roderick George and 19 Glenn Bressette and Clayton George have all said that the 20 police didn't come up to the fence. They came in a rush 21 towards the fence but not up to the fence. And that 22 there was no clubbing over the fence. 23 Does that help with your memory or is that 24 different than what you recall? 25 A: No that's what I had seen.
1241 Q: Okay. And you told us that when the 2 occupiers were behind the fence, and the police were in 3 the sandy parking lot, you said that there were twenty 4 (20) or twenty-five (25) people or more behind the fence 5 in the Park? 6 A: Not much more than that. There 7 wasn't a lot of people in there. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: I -- I don't know exactly how many, 10 there wasn't -- 11 Q: Sure. 12 A: -- that many, though. 13 Q: And you -- you told us that you 14 didn't know everyone who was in the Park. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Can you -- can you give us some idea 17 about how many people were there that you didn't 18 recognize? 19 A: Well, it was -- it was dark and -- 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: -- there were people moving around. 22 Some were not standing close to the fire where you could 23 see who they were and I -- 24 Q: So it was hard to tell who was there? 25 A: Yes.
1251 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And Mr. Millar asked you some 6 questions about the SIU and I understand that on 7 September the 7th of 1995, that is the next day, that the 8 S.I. U. came to see you in the hospital? 9 A: Yes, they did. 10 Q: And they interviewed you? 11 A: Yes, they did. 12 Q: And they took some pictures? 13 A: Yes, they did. 14 Q: Yeah. And I understand that we'll 15 hear some evidence that in 1997 the Commissioner of the 16 OPP, who was then Thomas O'Grady, asked the SIU to look 17 into the officers' conduct towards you on September the 18 6th. Did you know that? 19 A: I missed part of your -- 20 Q: I'm sorry. I understand that we'll 21 hear evidence that in 1997 the Commissioner of the OPP 22 asked the SIU to look, again, into the officers' conduct 23 towards you on September the 6th. 24 Did you know that there was a further 25 investigation in 1997?
1261 A: I wasn't aware of all the 2 investigations that were taking place. I -- I knew there 3 was certain investigations, but -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- that day the SIU -- I'm referring 6 to came to my house, twice I believe, and questioned me 7 about what had taken place down there. 8 Q: Right. And I understand that the SIU 9 came to see you again in 1997? 10 A: Yes, they did. 11 Q: Yeah. And you know that the S.I. U. 12 is independent and separate from the OPP? 13 A: I really never understood SIU until 14 time went by, yes. 15 Q: Okay. And the SIU issued a report 16 about its investigation, and did you have a chance to 17 look at that report? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. I wanted to ask you some 20 questions about it because the -- it sounds like from 21 that report, that some of the conclusions at least that 22 were reached are similar to your views about the matter. 23 And Mr. George, I have a copy of the 24 Director's report and it says, "Director's Report Custody 25 Injury of Cecil Bernard George, 6 September 1995" and it
1271 says, "the SIU File". And this was a report that was 2 issued February 8th, 1999? And for the assistance of 3 Counsel, this is one zero zero four six one nine 4 (1004619). 5 And what I'd like to do, Mr. George, so 6 you have a chance to follow along, is give you a copy of 7 the report, and there's a couple areas that I wanted to 8 take you to and ask you some questions about. 9 A: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 11 it? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. KAREN JONES: And to assist Counsel, 16 as you know, Mr. Commissioner, there are many duplicate 17 docket -- documents in the database and this is also 18 1005368. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's at Tab 2 of 20 the book at the front. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1005368, 22 yes, I see it. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The one (1) ... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1281 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: And first of all, Mr. George, you've 3 told us that you know you were interviewed again by the 4 SIU in 1997. Do you know whether or not any of the other 5 occupiers or your family were interviewed also in 1997? 6 A: I understood that there was going to 7 be questions asked from whoever was in that area when 8 that took place down there. Yes, I understood that there 9 was a number of people that were being interviewed as 10 time went by. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And, Mr. George, if I can ask you to 16 turn to Page 41 of that book. And I wanted to start you 17 off there Mr. George, 'cause there's sort of a pre-amble 18 here, about what the SIU determined, and then why they 19 determined it. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And so if you go to the third 22 paragraph from the bottom, and this was a document that 23 was written by Peter Tinsley (phonetic), who at the time 24 was the Director of the SI -- Special Investigations 25 Unit.
1291 And he -- he found two (2) things in the 2 report. The first was, he says: 3 "In the absence of sufficient evidence 4 establishing identity, I find that 5 there are no reasonable grounds upon 6 which to proceed with the criminal 7 charge with respect to the events 8 surrounding the altercation with and 9 arrest of Cecil Bernard George during 10 the confrontation." 11 Then he says: 12 "In the alternative, I arrive at the 13 same conclusion by also finding, based 14 on the available evidence, that there 15 are no reasonable grounds upon which to 16 believe that excessive and therefore 17 criminal force, was applied against 18 Cecil Bernard George on the night of 19 the confrontation." 20 And if you turn the page, Mr. George, to 21 Page 42, Mr. Tinsley outlines how he comes to that point 22 of view, and you'll see in the first paragraph on the top 23 of Page 42, first of all he starts off with reviewing -- 24 he had concluded that the CMU officers were engaged in a 25 lawful course of conduct,
1301 "When following their retreat back to 2 the edge of the sandy parking lot, they 3 punched out towards a group of 4 protesters who had emerged from within 5 the Park." 6 And he says: 7 "the evidence establishes that many of 8 the protesters were at this time 9 carrying weapons of one sort or 10 another, variously described as sticks 11 and clubs." 12 And, Mr. George, when you were behind the 13 fence with the occupiers, do you agree that many of them 14 had sticks or clubs? 15 A: Some may have, yes, but I know I 16 picked up a -- 17 Q: The metal bar? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah? 20 A: I can't say that for what anybody 21 else -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- had in their hands -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I was only kind of concentrating on
1311 what was directly in front of me. 2 Q: Right. And you've also told us that 3 at or about that time, people who were in the Park were 4 throwing rocks and sticks and firebrands -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- towards the police. And what Mr. 7 Tinsley then says is that he is talking about you here, 8 Mr. George. He says that: 9 "Mr George, he, admitted to having a 10 stick in his possession as he emerged 11 from the Park property onto the sandy 12 parking lot." 13 And he says: 14 "Prior to this full punch out 15 manoeuvre, the group of protesters was 16 advancing towards the CMU formation. 17 And my question is, Mr. George, you've 18 told us that the police were on the far side of the sandy 19 parking lot on the west side and what Mr. Tinsley 20 concluded was that you and others went over the fence 21 towards the police while they were still on the west side 22 of the parking lot. Do you agree with that? 23 A: I know I did and I mentioned -- 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: -- several times -- I don't believe
1321 that they came in behind me. I -- I had trouble trying 2 to focus on what was in front and what was behind me. 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: And I looked to my right and I never 5 seen anyone out on the other side of the fence to the far 6 right of me but what was directly behind me I, like I 7 mentioned, I only seen shadows and I think may have been 8 on the other side. I'm not positive. 9 Q: Right. And what Mr. Tinsley then 10 says was that this act of venturing out onto the sandy 11 parking lot area after the CMU and he calls the police 12 CMU because that's the Crowd Management Unit -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: That's how they were referred to -- 15 had retreated from the southern boundary fence of the 16 Park can only be described as confrontational in nature. 17 And I take it you'd agree, Mr. George, 18 that coming out into the sandy parking lot was something 19 that was confrontational to the police. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. And what Mr. Tinsley took from 22 that is that the fact that, I'm sorry -- 23 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'm sure Mr. 24 Tinsley did a very fine job in his inquiry by his own 25 statement which My Friend has quite fairly read in. He
1331 did not have the benefit of any officers who stood 2 forward and said, I did what I did on that night because 3 he couldn't identify them. 4 He is, to this extent, going through the 5 same exercise that you, sir, are going through to 6 determine what happened on the night of September the 6th 7 and events in relationship to the death of Dudley George. 8 Bringing this in and with respect to boot 9 strapping it through the evidence of this witness in 10 times -- at times for example, in the last question, the 11 third time he's gone through and been put through the 12 same evidence is with respect by not only not helping 13 this Commission, but to some extent usurping its 14 function. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How do you 16 intend to proceed with this? 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, as -- 18 as I said when I first had this document put before Mr. 19 George, that it struck me having listened to him today, 20 that there are many things that he says that are in 21 agreement with this document. And I'm wanting -- I'm not 22 going through the entire document but there is a few 23 areas where I wanted to see whether or not Mr. George 24 agreed or disagreed. 25 And frankly, Mr. Commissioner, I don't
1341 think this usurps you at all. You have before you and 2 you will have before you more information about what a 3 variety of adjudicators and investigators have found or 4 have thought and that certainly doesn't mean that you can 5 or you should. 6 Not -- I -- I mean as -- as the 7 Commissioner in this Inquiry, you still are in a position 8 where you listen to all the evidence and you make a 9 determination about what you believe the facts are and 10 what conclusions ought to be drawn from them. So having 11 this report before you, Mr. Commissioner, I don't think 12 usurps your function at all. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, having 14 the report -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: It's further 16 information that may or may not be of assistance and 17 you'll determine that in due course. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's no - 19 - there's no problem with having the report before me. I 20 have the report. I've looked at the report. It's in my 21 -- it's in my material. It's the use you're putting of 22 the report that I think Counsel's objecting to. Perhaps 23 we should hear from Mr. Horton. 24 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Mr. Commissioner, 25 just at the risk of -- of repeating what's been said, but
1351 the coincidences or lack of coincidences between the 2 evidence of any particular witness and the conclusions of 3 some prior report is not a relevant subject for this 4 Inquiry, in my respectful submission. 5 I mean, if that were the case, with all 6 the reports and judgments that have been written, each 7 witness could be taken through findings of prior 8 proceedings or reports to have them comment on whether or 9 not they agree with the characterization put on their 10 evidence and that's not use -- that's -- first of all, 11 it's not useful. 12 The second point, and this is really a 13 very important point, in my submission, is that the 14 conclusions that came at the end of this Inquiry came at 15 the end of that Inquiry. They came after all the 16 evidence that was available to that particular process. 17 The conclusions that would need to come out of this 18 Inquiry will come after the -- all of the evidence has 19 been heard from this Inquiry. 20 So, just taking one (1) witness' evidence 21 at a certain point in the Inquiry when, as we all know, 22 there's a lot of evidence still to be heard -- a lot of 23 evidence that's in the -- that's in the Commission's 24 files that have not yet come out. And to -- and to 25 prematurely put to a particular witness what conclusions
1361 are appropriate, based on their evidence, is -- is a 2 totally counterproductive exercise. 3 This Inquiry, if it's going to do its job 4 as -- as you've very clearly laid out, Mr. Commissioner, 5 is to take a fresh look at these things and come to its 6 own independent conclusions. 7 So, why can't the Witness simply be asked 8 if there's any lack of clarity or if Ms. Jones wishes to 9 challenge his evidence or reconfirm his evidence on some 10 point, just -- she can do that. She doesn't have to do 11 it in the context of every other report or Inquiry that's 12 ever been conducted, in my respectful submission. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 14 any comment, Mr. Millar? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I think that 16 it's fair to -- to put facts -- if there's a fact, but I 17 agree with my other Friends that -- that the conclusions 18 that the -- Mr. Tinsley drew are not appropriate to put 19 to this Witness. 20 He drew those conclusions based on his 21 apprehension of the material he had before him, but 22 having said that, they -- so I agree with Mr. Horton and 23 -- and -- and Mr. -- Mr. Henderson. But if there's a 24 fact that -- that this Witness might have that relates to 25 this Witness, I think that it's fair to ask the Witness
1371 about the fact. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 3 I agree with that, Ms. Jones and I have no problem with 4 receiving this report. As I say, I've already received 5 it, it's part of our documentation, and for the record, 6 I've read it. So -- and I'm entitled to read it. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. Yes, you surely 8 are. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I think 10 that you -- by reading the conclusions of the Special 11 Investigations, I think you are confusing matters a bit. 12 So I think if you have statements, which you've done 13 before -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- from 16 witnesses -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and ask 19 this Witness about them, I think that's fair, but I don't 20 think it's useful or helpful to read conclusions from 21 another tribunal or trier of fact. We know that Special 22 Investigations Unit does not conduct a hearing in the 23 classic sense and see witnesses -- 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in that
1381 sense. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the 4 witnesses are certainly not subjected to cross- 5 examination and so forth and so on. It's a completely 6 different procedure than this one is. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Hmm hmm. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 9 unnecessary for you to -- to read the conclusions of the 10 Special Investigations Unit Director to the Witness. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They are 13 before the Commission though, as I said. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This report 16 is part of our documentation and -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I have 19 viewed it and I will view it. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Would it be of 21 assistance then, Mr. Commissioner, if we made it an 22 exhibit pending identification? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
1391 It would be Exhibit...? 2 MS. KAREN JONES: And then it's -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's subject 4 to identification -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes, absolutely. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- by 7 whoever -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- whoever-- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Mr. Commissioner, 12 just to keep the procedure right, I think when this sort 13 of topic came up before, where a document had not been 14 formally proven, we had said that it would be 15 sufficiently identified by the Inquiry Document Number so 16 that it actually becomes an exhibit when it's proven. 17 And I -- I know we've done that with at least a couple of 18 other documents -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've kind 20 of mixed and matched -- 21 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- before. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that. 23 We've done it both ways. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's happened both 25 ways. We've marked --
1401 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps this 2 is a good time -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- we've marked it 4 with an "I" -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to 6 clarify that, Mr. Millar. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and we've marked it 8 with -- we've just referred to the Document Inquiry 9 Number. And... 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 11 satisfied to do that. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: If I might speak 16 in a word, Commissioner? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 18 Henderson. 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: The -- I think 20 the process of sorting out the -- the exhibits per se and 21 when they are to be introduced perhaps might be deferred 22 to a later date and is probably more complex than we want 23 to work out in the next five (5) minutes. 24 The question of making this particular 25 document an exhibit in light of the objections just
1411 raised about it, while Mr. George is a witness, I think 2 is particularly inappropriate because -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may be 4 right. 5 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- he is -- he's 6 never seen the report before, as far as we know -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 8 you're probably right. It doesn't make sense to 9 introduce this document with this witness. 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 12 that's right. For the time being, we can refer to the 13 document by its document number, and when an appropriate 14 witness is brought forward, you can introduce it as an 15 exhibit at that time. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, thank you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: Mr. George, I wanted to go back to 22 the -- actually let me take this in a little bit better 23 order. You had told us that on September 4th, that is 24 the day that the Park was occupied that you didn't go to 25 the Park at all, you drove by it; is that right?
1421 A: Yes, I believe it might have been in 2 the day after when I -- the first time I went there. 3 Q: Okay. And you told us as well, that 4 on September the 5th, you drove by the Park but you never 5 went into the Park. 6 A: No. 7 Q: And I was going to ask you, Mr. 8 George, did you go into the base on September the 5th? 9 A: No, I didn't. 10 Q: Not at all? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And you had told us on 13 September the 6th, the first time that you went to the 14 Park, you drove down there with your wife and with Kevin 15 Thomas? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Okay. Now we've heard a little bit 18 about Kevin Thomas from other witnesses. And I was 19 wondering, can you help us, does he -- is he someone who 20 lives at Kettle Point? 21 A: No -- yeah, he lived at Kettle Point 22 and he more or less went to -- down to Stony Point to 23 kind of show some support. 24 Q: Okay. And do you know if he went 25 down to Stony Point before or after September the 6th?
1431 A: After. 2 Q: Before or after. Do you know when it 3 was he went down to the base to show support? 4 A: Oh, I picked him on the road on my 5 way there that day. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And he -- like I mentioned, he would 8 come and go between both areas. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know if before 10 September the 6th of 1995 -- 11 A: No, I -- 12 Q: -- whether -- 13 A: No, I don't know. 14 Q: You don't know? 15 A: Because he was always on the move, 16 that fellow. 17 Q: Okay. Have you known him for a long 18 time? 19 A: Quite a few years, yes. 20 Q: Okay. And we heard from Marlin 21 Simon, and again this is one (1) -- the question I'm 22 going to ask you, Mr. George, is to help us put into 23 context some other people's evidence because as I say, a 24 number of people can say different things. 25 A: Yes.
1441 Q: We heard from Marlin Simon on October 2 the 18th that the passengers in your truck were Jeremiah 3 and Delbert. 4 Do you recall whether or not you ever took 5 Delbert with you to the Park? 6 A: No idea. 7 Q: No? 8 A: I don't -- I don't believe I did. 9 Q: Okay. You recall Jeremiah, though? 10 A: Yes, he -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: He went -- accompanied me the last 13 time I went down there. He was at my home. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: At Kettle Point. 16 Q: Okay. And you saw -- you said that 17 when you got to the Park, you saw some people and this 18 was the first time that you went to the Park. So this 19 was in daytime in or around your dinner time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You said that you saw people in the 22 Park, some of whom you knew and some of whom you didn't 23 know. Can you tell us whether or not you knew the 24 families who -- who were Stony Point families and had 25 been at the base? I take it they would have been part of
1451 your community? 2 A: Yes, we all lived together on Kettle 3 Point at one (1) time. 4 Q: Sure. 5 A: And -- 6 Q: And so, can you give us some idea 7 about the number of people that you saw in the Park when 8 you got there in the afternoon of September the 6th? 9 A: There wasn't a lot of -- a large 10 amount of people there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I keep sticking with a number of 13 about twenty (20) in that area, maybe a little bit more, 14 not much more than -- than that. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Why I said I didn't recognize some of 17 the people there was because when I -- first time I got 18 there they were walking away and had their backs turned 19 to me and I -- I didn't -- can't tell who -- who a person 20 is from behind. 21 Q: Okay. Sure. So there were a number 22 of people that you couldn't identify either because you 23 just couldn't see who was there? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay.
1461 A: Most of them were the ones that lived 2 up in the barracks area. 3 Q: I'm sorry...? 4 A: The ones that lived up in the barrack 5 area, that stayed in that area for the past couple years, 6 the ones that... 7 Q: Okay. One (1) of the things that 8 we've heard from a number of witnesses, Mr. George, is 9 that during at least September the 6th, was that there 10 was a buildup of defensive things in the Park, that 11 people had gathered, bricks and rocks and sticks and 12 metal objects and that kind of thing. 13 Did you see that going on when you were 14 there? 15 A: Not while I was there. No, everybody 16 was just kind of walking around with a -- I didn't see 17 anybody gather no sticks and stones, they were -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- I guess, gathering up some 20 firewood. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I mean, I never really noticed anyone 23 piling rocks or anything anywhere. 24 Q: Okay. Did you see some rock piles by 25 the fence?
1471 A: No, I did not. I can't recall. I 2 wasn't really looking for rock piles, I was... 3 Q: You were worried about your 4 sister...? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes. And you had told us, I think 7 that, when you first went to the Park, the first time on 8 September the 6th, that you had drove your truck to the 9 sandy parking lot. 10 And we've -- I anticipate that we will 11 hear some evidence and we've already heard some evidence, 12 that in the afternoon and early evening of September the 13 6th, that there were some of the occupiers out in the 14 sandy parking lot. 15 Did you see them in the sandy parking lot 16 when you were there? 17 A: Not when I pulled up. No, everybody 18 was meeting inside of the Park. 19 Q: Okay. And you told us that you were 20 at the Park for a short time, you then went home, and you 21 picked up the walkie-talkies and made sure they worked. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then made your way back to the 24 Park. And again, in terms of just trying to make sense 25 of some of the evidence, we heard from Roderick George on
1481 November 23rd, that you gave one (1) -- one (1) of the -- 2 set of the walkie-talkies to him...? Do you recall that? 3 A: It may have been. Yes, I -- it's 4 been a while back and -- 5 Q: Sure. 6 A: -- I know I gave one (1) of them to - 7 - to one (1) of the guys in there and he may have passed 8 it to somebody else, I -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- I can't specifically point at a 11 certain person that I did give it to. 12 Q: Okay. We also heard from Isaac 13 Doxtator on November the 25th, that's Buck Doxtator, that 14 you gave one (1) of the walkie-talkies to him. 15 A: I may have, yes, I -- I could have 16 mentioned -- I gave it to someone, but I'm not exactly 17 sure. 18 Q: Okay. And you had told us a little 19 bit about your going down East Parkway with your walkie 20 talkies because you were curious and you wanted to see 21 what was going on with the police. 22 And we've heard from a number of different 23 people now about who went down East Parkway with you. 24 And I'm just going see if you can give us some help with 25 that in terms of what you recall.
1491 We heard from Roderick George, that is, 2 Judas George on November 23rd that Kevin Thomas and maybe 3 David George went down East Parkway with you. 4 And can you tell us if you recall when you 5 went down East Parkway if Kevin Thomas was with you? 6 A: He may have been because I took him 7 down there earlier that day. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: The first time I give him a ride and 10 he stayed down there. 11 Q: Okay. And how about David George? 12 A: I know there was two (2) fellows out 13 there but I'm not exactly sure who they were. I just 14 said, Be careful guys. 15 Q: Okay. And you told us earlier I 16 think that they were two (2) young fellows? 17 A: Yes. They were younger than myself. 18 Q: Okay. Did Isaac Doxtator, that is, 19 Buck Doxtator go down the road with you? 20 A: No, not that I recall, no. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: He may have come out after I'd walked 23 a certain distance down towards where the police were. I 24 -- I don't know. 25 Q: Okay. But he didn't go out with you.
1501 Did you have communications? 2 A: Yes. I had one of the walkie 3 talkies. 4 Q: Right. Did you have communications 5 with Buck Doxtator during the time you were on East 6 Parkway? 7 A: Did I have...? 8 Q: Communication by walkie talkie with 9 Buck Doxtator? 10 A: Yeah. I -- I don't know if it was 11 Buck Doxtator or who it was. I was just talking to a 12 male. I couldn't recognize the voice. 13 Q: Okay. And you've told us about 14 coming back down East Parkway and ending up back in the 15 Park when the police were advancing down East Parkway. 16 And I just wanted to make sure about your evidence. 17 As I understood from what you said earlier 18 and if that's incorrect, please let me know; that you 19 were still in the sandy parking lot when the police were 20 coming down the road and were getting close to the 21 parking lot. 22 Is that right or -- or were you already in 23 the Park when the police were entering the sandy parking 24 lot? 25 A: They were right behind me. They were
1511 probably right on the road on the paved part of the road 2 and I was getting to the sand -- they were from you to me 3 behind. 4 Q: Close quite close to you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm asking you that again 7 because we've heard some evidence from different people. 8 We heard from David George on October the 20th that you 9 were inside the fence. That is inside the Park when the 10 police were approaching. 11 And we heard from Elwood George on 12 November the 3rd that you were back in the Park five (5) 13 minutes before the CMU appeared or came into sight. 14 And we also heard from Isaac Doxtator on 15 November 23rd that you were already behind the fence when 16 the police came to the sandy parking lot. And I'm 17 wondering if hearing that helps your memory or changes 18 your view at all. 19 A: No, it doesn't. They were right 20 behind me. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Because I backed down that road and I 23 didn't turn and almost running til they were in the sandy 24 parking lot area. They were not very far behind me. 25 They weren't five (5) minutes behind me and that was for
1521 sure. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: They were -- they right behind me. 4 Q: Okay. And I understand that on the 5 night of September the 6th, that you were wearing a 6 camouflage jacket? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah, okay. And you had given some 9 evidence that you believed that you might have had the 10 police scanner in your truck when you first went to the 11 Park on September the 6th. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. We heard some evidence earlier 14 from Kevin Simon on December the 1st. He told the 15 Commissioner about an incident that had happened to him 16 in August of 1995, that is, in the summer. 17 He said that he was in Kettle Point after 18 being dropped off by the police, and he said you came by 19 and picked him up and that you had known that he was 20 there, because you were listening to the police scanner. 21 Do you recall that? 22 A: In October? 23 Q: In August. 24 A: August? 25 Q: In the summer of 1995.
1531 A: No, I don't recall that, no. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I may have. 4 Q: Okay. Can -- can you tell us when 5 you got your scanner? 6 A: Oh, I had it for a number of years. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I was -- I had it for quite a while 9 because I was on the volunteer fire department and we had 10 to have a -- some type of communications to what were 11 going on in the area. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I had that -- that scanner was with 14 me for a number of years -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I bought a couple of different ones 17 and -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: One seemed to work a little bit 20 better than the other, so. 21 Q: You kept it, that one? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. I take it, then, that there 24 would have been a number of people at Kettle Point that 25 had scanners, if you needed to have one to be on the
1541 volunteer fire department or -- 2 A: Yes, they were -- 3 Q: -- other services? 4 A: -- issued some, but -- 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: -- others just bought their own. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: One of the reasons that I did carry 9 that scanner with me and listening to what was going on 10 in the area and because I felt that if you can get there 11 and -- to help somebody that you know to calm them down 12 or help them before the police arrive, that you might 13 save a lot of frustration, a lot of anger. Sometimes 14 hurt accompanies that. 15 'Cause I was involved in many -- many 16 times where I went in and -- you know, tried to help the 17 person and calm them down before the police got there. 18 And likewise, friends came to me and did the same to me. 19 Came and talked me out of, you know -- 20 Q: A bad situation? 21 A: -- getting anger. 22 Q: And getting in trouble, yeah. 23 A: Yes. So I -- I guess a -- I was the 24 nosey type that wanted to know what was going on in our 25 area, especially when you're -- you're involved with your
1551 friends, your family, the land, everything that I was -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- trying to take into consideration. 4 Q: And I just have two (2) more general 5 areas I wanted to ask you about, Mr. George. And the 6 first is, I wanted to ask you some questions about your 7 role on the Kettle and Stoney Point Band Council, and 8 some of the experiences that you had in and around 1995. 9 And you had told us that you were elected 10 to the Band Council in 1992? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And we know that in 1993, a 13 group of people started living at the base, and we've 14 been calling them the occupiers. 15 And at that point did the Kettle and 16 Stoney Point Band Council have any relationship with the 17 people who had moved onto the base with the occupiers? 18 A: Did they have any relationship? 19 Q: In terms of -- in -- in the questions 20 that -- I'm sorry that -- that. Was there any kind of a 21 formal relationship? Was there any sort of head person 22 at the base that the Councillors or the chief of the 23 Kettle and Stoney Point Band could speak to? 24 Or would you invite people to meetings or 25 go to their meetings?
1561 A: Well, yeah, we'd try to keep a line 2 of communication to the ones that were down there. We -- 3 I mean I -- it's very difficult trying to help the ones 4 who you speak for. 5 And I mentioned earlier that Federal 6 Government wouldn't talk to the people that were there, 7 which made it difficult. They only recognized elected 8 Band Councils and the Chief at that time. 9 And they wanted -- they wanted to be 10 involved in the talks with the Federal Government about 11 the land. But it was such a slow process of trying to 12 deal with the -- the land issue, which takes time. 13 And I know what -- what happened to the 14 ones that lived down there before I came to this -- into 15 this world. It was -- it's a long drawn out process and 16 frustration sets in, and people want to go back to where 17 they consider their home, and nobody understands why. 18 So, yes, I was involved in different 19 meetings where we tried our -- tried to think of a, you 20 know, a way to sit down and talk internally, without 21 other non-Members being taking part of our conversation 22 so that we could sit down and try to understand where -- 23 what they wanted us to do. 24 Q: Okay. Now was that -- was that an 25 issue in 1993, having outsiders who were trying to take
1571 part in the conversations? Or did that happen later on? 2 A: It was a slow build-up. There was a 3 lot of frustration -- 4 Q: Okay. Yes. 5 A: -- included in that and just -- it 6 made it pretty difficult. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Which is your best choice, you know, 9 to -- to make for the --for everyone involved. 10 Q: That's a hard thing. But my -- my 11 question was a little bit different than that, and -- 12 and -- 13 A: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you -- 14 Q: No, no. No, no, it's fine. The 15 reason I'm asking you that is because we heard that in 16 1993, when people first moved onto the base, that were 17 sort of camping out...? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: That -- that at least for a period of 20 time they -- there was a Chief that was elected or 21 Chiefs. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It sounded like there were some 24 subsequent people, and Councilors that were elected. And 25 I'm wondering if the Kettle Point and Stony Band Council
1581 had any kind of a relationship with that Chief and those 2 Councilors? 3 A: Well -- 4 Q: What would you -- 5 A: Yes, we -- we'd tried to keep them -- 6 we tried to keep that open and to the -- to the -- prefer 7 to these occupiers, I have a friend who is -- my friend's 8 at -- is at -- I myself, I couldn't pinpoint any certain 9 individual to say he was the leader of the group or not. 10 It was -- 'cause we were talking about, 11 you know, the whole -- the whole issue and I mean you 12 know, we couldn't, at least myself, I couldn't point my 13 finger at any certain person and say, we'll deal with him 14 or her. I was just -- I was hoping that it would be a 15 collective agreement together. 16 Q: Okay. So, in terms of, for example 17 in the summer of 1995, if you or other Councilors or the 18 Chief, Tom Bressette, wanted to organize or sort 19 something out with the occupiers, there wasn't any one 20 person or two (2) people that you could speak with? 21 A: No, I felt that it was -- they -- the 22 ones that were there wanted to -- were looking for 23 answers. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: It was the whole group that were
1591 there. No, I -- like I said I can't just single out one 2 individual. 3 Q: Okay. And from your perspective as a 4 Councilor at Kettle and Stony Point Band Council, did 5 that make it more difficult for you and the other 6 Councilors and the Chief to try and move forward? 7 A: Yes. There was some difficulty 8 involved in that. There was...how do you give a person 9 an answer when it takes time? It was -- it was that way. 10 We were looking for answers and we couldn't get the 11 answers ourself right away, and the government, they 12 were -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: It's such a slow process. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: We were trying to do the best we 17 could to decide -- you know, is this the right way? Is 18 this our right choice and if we got disagreements about 19 it, that's what accompanied it. 20 Q: Right. And Mr. Millar asked you some 21 questions about the minutes of the August 1st, 1995 22 meeting that was the minutes of the Kettle and Stony 23 Point Band Council meeting. 24 He asked you that early on -- 25 A: Yes.
1601 Q: -- yesterday. And I had read through 2 the minutes and it appeared that there were really three 3 (3) concerns that were being discussed by Chief Bressette 4 and by the Council and by the people that were there. 5 And they were, from what I could 6 understand, the first was that there was a separation 7 between the Kettle and Stony Point Band and the 8 occupiers. 9 Was that -- is that fair to say that that 10 was a concern at that meeting? 11 A: I guess each individual has their own 12 way of looking at an issue. 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: I didn't -- I didn't look at it in 15 that way but someone else might have, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And the second concern was 17 outsiders, that was -- that means, non-Band people in -- 18 at the base. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And you had told Mr. Millar 21 that one (1) of the concerns that you heard expressed was 22 that some of the older people were concerned because the 23 outsiders were going -- there was -- I think you said 24 there was a fear about strange people in camouflage 25 clothes walking around down there.
1611 That was one (1) of the reasons that you 2 said people were concerned about outsiders. 3 A: One (1) of the reasons, yes, that -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: -- discussion wasn't only at this 6 meeting. It was coming from discussion was certain 7 individuals that, you know, that I'd talk to -- 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: -- along the road and at their house. 10 They'd call me to their house and ask me questions. I 11 mean, that's part of what you do when you're elected 12 Council member is if someone calls you and ask you for 13 advice or assistance, you go there on your own time and 14 you try to give to give them the answer that they're 15 looking for and -- 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: -- that was some of the concerns that 18 I heard. 19 Q: And did you hear concerns expressed 20 to you or hear at the meeting that some of the Kettle and 21 Stony Point Band members were concerned because they were 22 being denied access to the Stony Point land? 23 A: They were being denied access? 24 Q: Denied access, that they would go 25 there and they wouldn't be let in or they'd be told that
1621 they didn't belong there. 2 Was that something that you'd heard? 3 A: I heard that, but anytime I had ever 4 went there I -- I mean I was never told, You can't come 5 in here, except for only one (1) person ever told me, 6 that was Maynard T. George and that was before -- that 7 was when the occupation first started, way out on the 8 ranges, before anyone ever moved into the buildings. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: I was never denied any access into 11 there, but I really never went there much. 12 Q: Yeah, that wasn't your personal 13 experience, but others told you they -- 14 A: It may have been, yes. 15 Q: -- had had that experience, yeah. 16 A: My only -- I don't want to say here, 17 say it. You hear something and that's hearsay. I mean 18 you have to be there to witness it yourself and that's my 19 point of view. 20 Q: Sure. The third concern that I 21 understand was going on about the outsiders was there was 22 a view that they could be working with the occupiers who 23 were at the base to ignore the authority of the Kettle 24 and Stony Point Band Council and Chief Bressette. 25 A: Working to ignore?
1631 Q: The authorities. 2 A: The authority? 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: I don't -- I don't believe that it -- 5 it might have happened that way, it may have been said by 6 other individuals. But no I -- what I had seen and the 7 way I had taken it was that the ones that were there were 8 more or less in -- trying to support what was going on 9 there and there was a lot of people coming and going in 10 that area. Taking food down there and -- 11 Q: Right. 12 A: -- taking different things. I mean 13 everybody has their own point of view and to me they -- 14 they weren't there to overrule authority. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And they -- that was how I felt about 17 it. 18 Q: Okay. Did you -- okay. And the last 19 concern as I understand from looking at the minutes was a 20 concern about violence or a potential for violence at the 21 base with the outsiders there. 22 Did people bring those kind of concerns to 23 you as a councillor or speak to you about that? 24 A: Violence? 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
1641 A: No one really needs that. People get 2 hurt when that happens. It's -- there was talk about it, 3 there was talk about many things that we tried to look at 4 different avenues on how we could -- that was the last 5 thing that we really needed down there was to -- a type 6 of violence to erupt because from that you never know 7 where it could go. People get hurt when that happens. 8 Q: That's right. And I take it that was 9 one (1) of the reasons that on August the 1st, 1995, that 10 the majority of the people at the meeting voted to send 11 out that letter thanking the outsiders for their support 12 but asking them to leave. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And the third issue at the 15 meeting I take it was the status of the negotia -- I'm 16 sorry. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 18 Henderson? 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, 20 Commissioner, My Friend started off by saying there were 21 three (3) concerns arising out of the minutes. We're up 22 to number 6 now. And I'm - I'm -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, 24 there's -- 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON -- and I'm not --
1651 I'm not sure that the evidence that Mr. George is giving 2 while he's making every effort to be responsive, it -- 3 almost effusively so -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Almost, I'm 5 sorry? 6 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Almost effusively 7 so, he's being responsive. But I'm not sure that any of 8 this is, you know, any -- or much of his evidence is 9 actually connecting to the August the 1st meeting. 10 And of course My Friend was leading up to 11 the resolution. But much of that evidence doesn't go 12 anywhere near the resolution or anywhere that -- near 13 that meeting. So I -- I'm trying to get this all into 14 the right context and of course I'm noticing in the hour 15 as well. And the kind of day -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 17 fine. 18 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- that Mr. 19 George has had in the -- in the witness stand. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're 21 going to -- we're going to adjourn for the day at 4:30. 22 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Fine, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 24 to adjourn for the day at 4:30. Mr. George has been 25 volunteering some information, as you say, effusive in
1661 his responses. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I may have 3 overstated that, but generous, certainly generous, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But I think 6 the questions so far have been appropriate questions, I 7 think. 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, my -- my 9 real reason for rising of course was -- was to relate 10 this more closely to the August the 1st meeting and to 11 the minutes of that meeting which is where we started 12 with this. But the evidence is going, you know, much 13 further afield and not necessarily coming back. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 That's fine. Ms. Jones, I think you've been trying to 16 confine -- I think you've been trying to confine your 17 questions to the three (3) areas that you identified were 18 concerns at this meeting. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I absolutely have. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 21 -- I think you've covered at least three (3) areas. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: The three (3) areas 23 actually, Mr. Commissioner, I'm sorry if I haven't been 24 clear. One (1) was the separation between Kettle Point-- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
1671 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and the occupiers. 2 One (1) was outsiders in the Park and -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The third is 4 violence. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and the third is the 6 negotiations with the -- with DND. And I just have a few 7 questions about the negotiations with DND. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 9 one (1) of the ones where you indicated was violence or 10 potential for violence. So perhaps there's four (4). 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, the concern 12 about -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was that -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- outsiders in the 15 Park, Mr. Chair, I had -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So that's 17 part of the -- part of the second one. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I had broke down 19 into -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: -- into discreet areas 22 and I'm sorry if I was confusing about that. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you still 24 have another point to cover? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I do have one (1) more
1681 point to cover. Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: And, Mr. George, I wanted to ask you 6 some questions about the negotiations with the Department 7 of National Defence because I -- it appears from the 8 August 1st meeting that a lot of discussion went on about 9 the negotiations; that was a big part of the meeting. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Is that right? Yeah. And I think 12 you've told us that the government would only negotiate 13 with Kettle -- with the Kettle and Stony Point Band 14 Council. Is that right? 15 A: That's what I understood, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And in reading the minutes, it 17 appears that the position -- the formal position of the 18 Kettle and Stony Point Band Council was that there was 19 one Band with two (2) lands, one being at Kettle Point 20 and one at Stony Point. Is that -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- right? And it also appears from 23 the minutes that there was a view that the occupation of 24 the base had split the Band in some way, and was slowing 25 down negotiations, because you weren't able to speak with
1691 one voice together, to the Department of National 2 Defence. 3 Is that fair? 4 A: I guess each individual, like I 5 mentioned before, they have their own way of 6 understanding certain issues. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I never really -- the separation part 9 is -- that word came -- first came from Maynard T. George 10 and from that point on I -- I found it difficult to 11 understand what he was getting at. 12 Yes, there was a -- they -- they moved 13 into the lands down there, but to me it wasn't -- it 14 wasn't a separation. It was they wanted to go home where 15 they felt they lived, where their parents once lived, 16 where their grandparents once lived. 17 It wasn't -- I guess you look at 18 separation in different details and one can tell you how 19 they feel about the word separation. 20 Q: Sure. And I now want to move on to 21 one other area, and that's the area of the burial sites, 22 because you told the Commissioner yesterday that your 23 grandmother and your great-aunt, I think Bessie, had told 24 you of burial sites in the base and along the beach area, 25 which could possibly be in the Park.
1701 A: Yes, she -- they didn't really didn't 2 say they -- they were in any Park or anything. They just 3 mentioned it. 4 Q: I'm sorry. Mr. Millar just corrected 5 me. I had your aunt Rachel mixed up with your 6 grandmother, Bessie. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I'm sorry about that. And are those 9 -- the ones that you've mentioned, the burial sites in 10 the base, and along the beach area, are those the only 11 burial sites that you know about in that area? 12 A: They talked about their people being 13 placed in anywhere they could. I mean, they said there 14 was -- they were all over in the whole area down there, 15 in the hills. I don't really know. I only hear what I 16 hear. 17 Q: Sure. And I'm wondering, prior to 18 September the 6th, 1995, did you ever advise or do you 19 know if anyone else from Kettle and Stony Point Band 20 Council advised the Ministry of Natural Resources about 21 any possible burial sites in the park? 22 A: Before? 23 Q: Before September the 6th, 1995? 24 A: No, not that I know of, no. 25 Q: Okay. Do you know if -- did you or
1711 do you know if any of the Kettle or Stony Point Band 2 Council or Band itself ever advised the provincial or 3 federal government about a possible burial site or sites 4 in the Park? 5 A: Well we had different people 6 researching the area down there and pulling out any kind 7 of information that was -- that would help us, with a 8 land claim and -- and even was the area of the Park 9 because the land was taken away at some point in time by 10 whatever means. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: And they tried to understand why. 13 Q: Right. And I think you had told us 14 earlier that you didn't have any answers about why the 15 occupiers were in the Park. 16 A: No. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Not at that point. I never knew. 19 Q: And the last area I wanted to ask you 20 about, Mr. George, was the area of guns, because you had 21 told Mr. Millar yesterday that you had a variety of guns. 22 And I -- I wanted to be clear about what your evidence 23 was. 24 And, first of all, I wanted to start off 25 with: In the summer of 1995, or the early fall of 1995,
1721 can you tell us how many guns you had? 2 A: Probably twenty some. 3 Q: I'm sorry. 4 A: Twenty (20) some. 5 Q: Twenty (20) some guns? 6 A: At least twenty (20), yes. 7 Q: And could you give us the breakdown 8 of what kind of guns you had. You sort of did it in 9 general terms yesterday, but I'm wondering if you can be 10 a little bit more specific? 11 A: Well I had .22 round long rifles. 12 Q: Okay. Did you have -- you had more 13 than one (1) .22 long rifle? 14 A: Yes, I had a different variety of .22 15 long rifles. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Single shot, Winchesters, automatics, 18 and I had a variety of different types of shotguns, pump 19 guns, single shot, automatics. And then I go into the 20 higher range of -- higher range calibre and 243s, 270s, 21 303, 300 Winchesters. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And I had a AK47, and a SKS, it was a 24 -- a higher calibre -- higher than -- 25 Q: Semi -- semi-automatic guns.
1731 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. And as I -- do you agree with 3 me that at least some of those guns would be guns that 4 are classified as prohibited or restricted? 5 A: Yes, they -- 6 Q: Under the Criminal Code? 7 A: -- some of them are. They were 8 banned, I don't know what year it was, they took them 9 from the market where you could buy them out of a gun -- 10 gun store. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: Most of them I bought in -- in the 13 gun shops, others I bought from -- right on the First 14 Nations. They were all rusty old guns that they had for 15 years and I pulled them apart, cleaned them up, took them 16 to gunsmiths, and made them one (1) of my collection. 17 Q: Okay. You've told us about buying 18 guns at gun stores. Did you also buy guns privately from 19 time to time? 20 A: Privately...? 21 Q: Privately, from another individual as 22 opposed to a gun store? 23 A: Yes. I have no need to lie to you. 24 Yes, I did. 25 Q: Okay.
1741 A: Mostly from Kettle Point. 2 Q: Most of the private buying you did 3 was from Kettle Point? 4 A: Yes, they were just .22 single-shots 5 and -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- older .22. 8 Q: And when you talk about buying guns 9 at Kettle Point, do you know -- and you said that they 10 were mostly .22 single-shots, did you have any handguns 11 in your collection? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I took a handgun course. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And I passed it but no, I -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: It was because any time that a gun 19 safety course would come in our area, I would jump at the 20 opportunity to take another one and learn more about the 21 proper safety use of a firearm, 'cause there was so many 22 firearms in our area on Kettle Point and a lot of our 23 people hunted. Some hunt for a living, some hunt because 24 they feel the treaty is still there. 25 Q: Okay. And are there other collectors
1751 around as well, of guns. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Mr. Commissioner 3 THE WITNESS: I have -- I don't -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 5 minute -- 6 THE WITNESS: -- get into -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Henderson...? 9 THE WITNESS: -- what other people do. 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With respect, 11 sir, I'm sure this is an interesting line of enquiry, and 12 I'm sure there are many amongst the OPP and some of the 13 future witnesses who have interests as gun collectors as 14 well. 15 What possible relevance does it have to 16 the subject of this Inquiry? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I'm -- 18 I think we're probably near the end of this. But these 19 questions were asked on direct examination about the guns 20 and they're in the record and I can't see you going much 21 farther, but I see -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm not planning on 23 going much further, Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're at 25 the end.
1761 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. I -- I'm close 2 to the end -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Not quite at the end. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: And, Mr. George, can you tell us how 8 you stored your guns. 9 A: Pardon? 10 Q: How you -- how you stored your guns? 11 A: Chained them up. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 13 relevant question, I think, Mr. Henderson. 14 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I think I have 15 the same objection. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I think 17 it's a relevant question. We've heard it before from 18 other witnesses. I think -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well I asked the 20 questions about the guns and I think that it's fair. 21 We'll hear from My Friend but it's fair to ask the 22 witness how he stored them. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where the 24 guns were stored? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah.
1771 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 2 so. 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I just want to 4 say, Commissioner, and I know it's getting late in the 5 day, and everyone would like to stop, no-one more so than 6 me, except perhaps, Mr. George. 7 But the mere fact that some questions have 8 been asked before, doesn't necessarily make them 9 particularly relevant or -- we've got to the point that 10 Mr. George lived on Kettle Point, never lived, except 11 for -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh -- 13 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- a few week 14 period many years before these events, never lived at 15 Stony Point, wasn't into the Park except the one (1) 16 occasion briefly on September the sixth (6). It wouldn't 17 matter particularly, whether he had a tank in his garage. 18 It had nothing to do with the incidents 19 that occurred and, you know, we can run as far afield 20 going through everyone's closets on the reserve for a 21 long, long time and as I've just indicated, do the same 22 with the police who have proclivities along those lines 23 as well. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Where will that
1781 take us? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think the 3 question that's on the table is where were your guns 4 stored, and I think that's a legitimate, relevant 5 question. And I think we're almost at the end so -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: We are very close to 7 the end, Mr. Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What time is 9 it? We're twenty-five (25) after -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I'd like 12 to end by 4:30. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: And, Mr. George, I'm sorry again. 17 Where did you store your guns? 18 A: I got -- I got them in my closet 19 where I -- in my bedroom where I sleep. I got them 20 chained up. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: because I'm the only one who has a 23 key to them. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I got some hanging on the wall in my
1791 entry to my home and these are chained on the wall. 2 Padlocked and chained. 3 Q: Okay. And are these guns registered, 4 Mr. George? 5 A: Registered? The ones that I bought 6 in the store that, if you call that registered. And 7 there was some -- I'm still trying to understand about 8 the registration that we have as a First Nation, that we 9 need to get into the registration and always looking for 10 direction from our chief on what we're supposed to do. 11 Are we supposed to register our guns? Are we supposed to 12 -- what are we supposed to do? 13 I said, I have them and I said I'm -- I'm 14 going to keep them until we find further that, you know, 15 what are we supposed to do, we native peoples. 16 Q: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 THE WITNESS: So I left it at that. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: Okay. Thank you. 22 A: Because there was the -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 THE WITNESS: -- registration bill was -- 25 the bills were up and down and people were not really --
1801 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Commissioner? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 3 volunteering information, Mr. Henderson. 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, I'm his 5 Council and I'd like to stop him. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, okay. 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: This is a 8 provincial inquiry. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: My Friend, in a 11 question that you deemed to be relevant, asked whether 12 the guns that he owned in 1995 -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 14 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Right? And you 15 got a list out of that. Now we're getting into questions 16 about -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 18 need this -- 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- whether or not 20 he has registered weapons -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She didn't 22 ask -- 23 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- stored in a 24 safe manner today, which may or may not be prohibited, 25 and that's going very far afield from where we want to
1811 be, and I wouldn't want to see anything follow upon it, 2 because -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- now I just 5 have to go back to if we're going to deal with 1995, -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: -- let's do that 8 as much as we need to. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 10 right -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: This isn't 12 anything to do with 1995 and it's obviously prejudicial 13 to this witness. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 15 we're finished, Mr. Henderson. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: We are, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We are. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: We are. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you very much, 23 Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much, Ms. Jones.
1821 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. George, thank you 2 very much. 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: If I've saved us 4 from doing it again, Mr. Commissioner -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's now 6 4:30. Thank you. You have to come back, unfortunately, 7 tomorrow. We haven't completed the Cross-examinations, 8 there's still Ms. Tuck-Jackson for the OPP, Mr. Downard 9 on behalf of former Premier Harris, and of course, Mr. 10 Henderson may have some questions as well. 11 MR. AL O'MARRA: Excuse me, Mr. 12 Commissioner, I should have identified, I have about five 13 (5) questions, five (5) minutes of questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 15 minutes, okay. You're allowed five (5) minutes. And 16 five (5) minutes on behalf of the Coroner. So we should 17 be able to complete your evidence tomorrow morning. We 18 should be finished with your evidence by the morning 19 recess. 20 Are you able to come back tomorrow morning 21 at ten o'clock? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Pardon? What time? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's tomorrow morning 24 at ten o'clock, Mr. George. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1831 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This Inquiry 3 is now adjourned until tomorrow morning at ten o'clock. 4 Thank you. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, December the 8th, at 7 10:00 a.m. 8 9 --- Upon adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 10 11 12 13 Certified Correct 14 15 16 17 18 _________________________ 19 Dustin Warnock 20 21 22 23 24 25