11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 6th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) (np) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 M. Wood ) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) (np) 17 18 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 19 Anna Perschy ) 20 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 21 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Trevor Hinnegan 107 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Robert Ash 115 10 Re-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 125 11 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 127 12 13 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Sworn 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 131 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 228 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-108: Document 2001957, London Free Press 15 4 by Simon Tuck,'Band Threatens to 5 Barricade Ipperwash Base' July 23, 6 1990. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon convening at 10:38 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. We've been waiting -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the last few 11 minutes to see if Ms. Tuck Jackson would arrive. We know 12 that she's on her way, but -- because her office advised 13 us of that, but given the fact that she has cross- 14 examined already, perhaps we can proceed. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Simon, may I remind 17 you that you are still under oath? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 20 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed: 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 23 morning, Mr. Roland. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good morning, Mr. 25 Commissioner.
81 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Simon, my name is 3 Ian Roland. I represent the Ontario Provincial Police 4 Association. I have some questions for you this morning. 5 Let me start, if I could, with the protest 6 that occurred in July 1990. There was reference to that 7 in your evidence-in-chief and there's a document that has 8 been -- has been handed out last week to all counsel. 9 It's 2001957 being a newspaper report in the London Free 10 Press dated July 23, 1990. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: I will locate another copy. We 15 handed copies to everybody last week. Let me just read 16 some portions of this article to you, Mr. -- 17 A: Did you give me a copy of that or...? 18 Q: I don't -- I think a copy would have 19 been given to you last week but I don't know that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: What's the 24 headline? 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's called "A Band
91 Threatens To Barricade Ipperwash Base" and we handed out 2 copies to all Counsel last week. I've got a copy, maybe 3 I can use this. We found a copy as distributed last 4 week. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Now this refers to a demonstration 8 that you told us about. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me. Perhaps 10 Mr. Roland could give the witness, Mr. Simon, an 11 opportunity just to look at the -- 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Certainly, certainly. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Have you had a chance to look at the 18 article, Mr. Simon? 19 A: Briefly, yeah. 20 Q: Yeah? And do -- you recall that 21 demonstration, I gather, that occurred in July of 1900? 22 A: It's still kind of hard to remember 23 which differentiate -- there's been so many different 24 ones over the years. 25 Q: All right, but this one apparently
101 was -- was a demonstration which your grandmother, Melva 2 George, was involved. You see that from the article? 3 A: I understand on reading it, it was 4 that she was talking about another one coming up, but it 5 very well could have. 6 Q: Well, as I understand it, there was a 7 demonstration and what -- what this article says is that 8 if -- if the land claims are not settled, that there was 9 going to be a barricade put up at Camp Ipperwash some 10 time after August 14, 1990. 11 Does that help you recall the 12 demonstration; that is, it was -- it appeared to be a 13 demonstration in which there was threatened, a barricade 14 some several weeks later if land claims weren't dealt 15 with. Does that assist you in recalling this? 16 A: I think you're taking it out of 17 context what she had said to the reporter and what was 18 actually said to Army officials. 19 Q: I see. Well, what she says is that 20 if -- if -- that land claims need to be settled and if 21 they aren't there's going to be a barricade put up some 22 time after August 14, 1990 and she compares it, it 23 appears, like the barricade at Oka. 24 Is that something that you recall? 25 A: I recall there being a lot of
111 similarities being drawn between what was happening at 2 Oka at that time and -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- what could very well happen if the 5 Government didn't deal with our -- our issues. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And our land claim. 8 Q: And she goes on to say: 9 "The younger generation isn't going to 10 wait peacefully like we did. We don't 11 want another Oka." 12 And I gather that was a -- a sentiment -- 13 I gather that was a sentiment that -- that she had and a 14 number of people had that they wanted -- they didn't want 15 another Oka; is that right? 16 A: They were trying to avoid violence, 17 yes. 18 Q: Yes. Because that -- that's -- my 19 point is, that the reference to Oka is reference to a 20 violent demonstration or blockade; isn't it? 21 A: That's what it was made out to be. 22 Q: Yes. And what she was, I gathered, 23 saying is that she's concerned that the younger 24 generation, of which I take it, you would be a member, 25 weren't going to await any longer or much longer to
121 settle land claims. And that there was a real risk that 2 if they weren't settled soon that they younger generation 3 would resort to an Oka-kind of violent demonstration; 4 isn't that what she was saying? 5 A: She said it's possible. 6 Q: Yes. Now, in the article, it also 7 refers -- you'll see, near the end of the article -- to a 8 band separation. If you look at the article, you'll see 9 there is, near the end, a little subheading that says, 10 "Band Separation". And it refers to Stony Point members 11 who decided informally, it appears the previous Saturday, 12 that they would prefer -- pursue official separation from 13 the Kettle Point Band. 14 Do you recall that happening? That there 15 was a -- a decision informally made to pursue official 16 separation from the Pettle -- Kettle Point Band at that 17 stage, in 1990? 18 A: As I told you before, there was a 19 meeting with -- Tom Siddon had come down to Kettle 20 Point -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I'm not too sure what the dates are, 23 but as I said in my previous testimony that there was a - 24 - a declaration of our -- our independence -- our right 25 to our own sovereignty, look after our own affairs.
131 Q: That is independent from the Kettle 2 Point Band? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And that occurred at that 5 stage in the summer -- in July of 1990? 6 A: I'm not too sure when it took place, 7 but... 8 Q: It also refers to -- the article 9 refers to -- religious differences between the two (2) 10 bands. Can you help us to understand what that referred 11 to, what that means? 12 A: Just religious differences. 13 Q: What those differences were? Did you 14 -- do you have any appreciation or understanding of what 15 the article's referring to? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: You don't? Then, finally, the 18 article says -- says that in another sign of support for 19 the Kanestake Mohawks four (4) Stony Point members left 20 for Oka on Saturday night in a van filled with blankets, 21 food, and tents. 22 Do you remember that four (4) of your 23 fellow demonstrators or persons who were involved with 24 Stony Point left for Oka to support the occupiers there? 25 A: Myself, I had gone up there, but I
141 think it was a little bit later, more towards the end of 2 August or beginning of September. 3 Q: Okay. And do you recall who the four 4 (4) were that this article refers to or any of those four 5 (4) that went? 6 A: If it -- if I'm correct on the dates 7 there, it wouldn't have been the time I went, so no, I 8 don't. 9 Q: You don't know who the others were? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And, sorry, you say you 12 went later, in August? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. And for what purpose did 15 you go to Oka? 16 A: Same as what it says in there. We 17 took a van full of food and blankets and stuff like that. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And did you go with others? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And who did you go with? 21 A: I believe they were -- I don't know 22 if it was an Anglican Church who had set that up, that 23 we'd hitched a ride with. 24 Q: All right. Let me turn to another 25 topic. Perhaps we could mark that article as -- as an
151 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-108. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-108. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-108: Document 2001957, London Free 7 Press by Simon Tuck,'Band 8 Threatens to Barricade 9 Ipperwash Base' July 23, 10 1990. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 13 Q: In your evidence last Wednesday when 14 Mr. Millar was asking you questions, he asked you about 15 checkpoints that were set up along Highway 21 in the 16 first part of the summer of 1993 after the initial 17 occupation. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You remember that? And you said: 20 "We organized ourselves into basic -- 21 into basically as a checkpoint to keep 22 an eye on who's coming in, search -- 23 search vehicles, see what people are up 24 to". 25 You recall giving that evidence last week?
161 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. And as I understood from your 3 evidence, there were three (3) checkpoints along Highway 4 21, one (1) at the east end, towards the east end of 5 Highway -- of the -- sorry, east end of the -- of the 6 Army Camp. 7 One (1) you said, near Dudley's trailer 8 and one (1) near Cliff's trailer? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And you were asked whether 11 Maynard T. George organized those checkpoints and you 12 said, No, he didn't. 13 Can you tell us who organized those 14 checkpoints? 15 A: I -- actually I should have said, I 16 wasn't too sure. If -- he could have had something to do 17 with it, but I didn't really think he did. 18 Q: All right. Do you know who organized 19 those checkpoints? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: All right. And did you participate 22 in staffing any of those checkpoints at any time? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: All right. And can you tell us how 25 frequently you staffed them and in what circumstance? I
171 gather you were working during the day, Monday to Friday, 2 at that stage -- 3 A: I was going to school when -- 4 Q: I see. 5 A: -- we first moved in there, so it was 6 usually after -- after school hours. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Took me about an hour to get to Stony 9 Point from London. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Usually from that point until after 12 dark. 13 Q: All right. And were those 14 checkpoints staffed twenty-four (24) hours a day? 15 A: As far as I know. 16 Q: And is it fair to say, then, that the 17 occupiers who were there in the Army Camp at that stage, 18 took turns in staffing the checkpoints? 19 A: Yeah, you could say that. 20 Q: All right. And do you recall who was 21 responsible for -- for assuring that there was someone at 22 the checkpoint at any given time? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: You don't know? 25 A: A volunteer basis from what I seen.
181 Q: When you came into the Army Camp, 2 having been off the Army Camp, were you checked and was 3 your vehicle checked at the checkpoint that you entered? 4 A: That's usually where I pulled up to, 5 so... 6 Q: Sorry? 7 A: You mean by -- 8 Q: By somewhere there, staffing the 9 checkpoint. Did they check your vehicle as you went in 10 and out -- or not out, but in? 11 A: In a way, yeah. I usually brought 12 firewood and stuff like that, whatever I could get from 13 school, so I'd pull up there and basically empty my 14 vehicle anyway, so. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: It'd be a way of getting checked, I 17 guess. 18 Q: And you said that the vehicles were 19 searched. What were the persons staffing the checkpoint 20 looking for in vehicles? 21 A: I don't know. At that time there was 22 -- we were trying to make sure that everybody was staying 23 sober in there, so we'd be checking for alcohol. I don't 24 know, mainly to keep track of who was coming in. 25 Just if somebody was coming in there to
191 give us a hard time or whatever, it was the best spot to 2 stop them and find out. 3 Q: So you said you -- but you said you 4 were searching vehicles. Were you searching vehicles for 5 persons, other persons? 6 A: Not necessarily. 7 Q: So you were searching them for 8 alcohol, you say? 9 A: Alcohol or anything else, just 10 anything that looks suspicious I guess. 11 Q: All right. Were you searching them 12 for firearms? 13 A: Could have been. 14 Q: You're not sure you mean? 15 A: Well, if they didn't have any, I 16 guess we wouldn't be -- yeah. 17 Q: You were looking for them though as 18 you staffed this checkpoint, one (1) of the things you 19 did was look for firearms? 20 A: Yeah, among other things. 21 Q: And you say the checkpoint lasted 22 much of the summer? 23 A: As far as I can remember. Yeah I'm 24 not too sure how long they had lasted but they had gone 25 on for quite a while.
201 Q: All right. And then I take it some 2 time at the end of the summer or -- or beyond the summer, 3 those checkpoints and the staffing of those checkpoints 4 ceased? 5 A: Yeah. As people -- winter set in, 6 people started moving out. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Had less people around. 9 Q: Is it fair to say that the 10 checkpoints, as staffed, as you've described it did not 11 resume in 1994? 12 A: I'm not too sure about that. 13 Couldn't remember. I don't think so though. 14 Q: Yeah. Or 1995? 15 A: They had started up again in '95 16 after we moved into the barracks. But it was over at the 17 entrance to the barracks. 18 Q: Right. Okay. Thank you. Let me 19 turn now if I could to the army range hut that you 20 occupied for a short period of time. This is I think 21 identified as Building 105. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And I -- I think it's clear that that
211 building was not something that you created or others 2 constructed. It's -- it's a pre-existing army building 3 that was there before the occupation began in 1993? 4 A: Yes, it was. 5 Q: Now as I understand it, the building 6 burned down some six (6) hours after it was searched and 7 your belongings were taken by the military police from 8 that building; is that about right? 9 A: I would guess so. I wasn't around. 10 Q: Yeah. Hmm hmm. And I gather you 11 were, at that stage then, relieved that the military 12 police had removed your belongings from the building. 13 Otherwise they would have been consumed and destroyed in 14 the fire? 15 A: It doesn't really make no difference 16 to me I've never received those belongings back. 17 Q: But at the time you must have been 18 relieved that they weren't in the building at the time? 19 A: Not really. They were gone either 20 way. 21 Q: I see. And then I gather a few days 22 later on Saturday, August the 21st, you and others dumped 23 the remains -- the burnt and charred remains of that 24 building at the army Camp barracks? 25 A: Yes, I did.
221 Q: Yeah. And you did that, I take it, 2 as a demonstration or protest to let the military and 3 other visitors know that you were unhappy about the fact 4 that your belongings had been taken from the building? 5 A: That was one (1) of the reasons. One 6 (1) of the things that stuck in my mind, the largest 7 thing that stuck in my mind, I was told when those army 8 had come to take my stuff, was that they had -- they 9 didn't want to argue about whose land it was. They just 10 wanted to argue about whose building it was. 11 So when I dropped that building off, I 12 told them that that was a good start and if they wanted 13 their buildings they should take them. So that was what 14 was left of that one, that's what was left of that one I 15 guess. 16 Q: So I take it at that stage you're 17 happy that the building burned so that you could in this 18 way demonstrate that they could have their building back 19 in whatever condition it was then in? 20 A: I don't know about that. It was just 21 something that happened. It was burnt, took advantage of 22 the situation I guess. 23 Q: After the belongings were taken from 24 the building and put on the -- on the truck as you've 25 described them, I gather you followed the truck into the
231 Army Camp barracks, did you? 2 A: A while after, a few minutes later. 3 Q: I see. Did others of the occupiers 4 follow those trucks in -- in their own vehicles ahead of 5 you? 6 A: That's what I heard after. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I didn't witness -- it was really 9 foggy that morning, couldn't see. 10 Q: Okay. And did you attend at the 11 military headquarters that morning and speak to a couple 12 of soldiers, Captain Prentice (phonetic) and Major Taylor 13 (phonetic) -- Sergeant Major Taylor? 14 A: I'm not too sure who I had talked to 15 but, yes, I did go to the building that was identified as 16 a guardhouse, at the corner of the Army Camp. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: At the corner of Army Camp and 21. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: There was a number of army personnel 21 there. I approached them, asked where my belongings 22 were. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And the reason I'd gone there was 25 because I recognized the deuce and a half truck that --
241 that's where my belongings were. I made my way around 2 back and realized that I had basically had been faked, 3 they tricked me, there was nothing in that truck. So 4 proceeded to ask them where it was. 5 Q: Were you with another occupier at the 6 time? 7 A: I had picked somebody up that was 8 walking but they stayed in the truck throughout that. 9 Q: And I take it you were angry and 10 upset with those two (2) military personnel, the Captain 11 and the Sergeant Major, because of what had occurred with 12 respect to your belongings? 13 A: I was angry with all of them; there 14 was quite a few of them around there. 15 Q: And is it fair to say you were 16 expressing your anger to them at the time? 17 A: I was making myself heard. 18 Q: Yes. In a -- could it be fair to 19 describe it as a -- quite an aggressive way? 20 A: Not any more aggressive than they 21 were. 22 Q: But you -- you describe them as 23 aggressive as well; do you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. So they were aggressive
251 and you were aggressive? 2 A: I was just loud. I wasn't being 3 aggressive physically. 4 Q: All right. Let me, if I could, turn 5 to the helicopter incident which occurred two (2) days 6 later, on August 23, '93 -- sorry, it occurred, yes, two 7 (2) days after the -- no, two (2) days after the -- the 8 dumping of the burnt hut on August 21st. Two (2) days 9 later the helicopter incident occurs. 10 And as I understand from your evidence, 11 you were at the Camp that night and you were sleeping in 12 your brother Marlin's trailer; is that right? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: And that's -- that was then located 15 at the south end of the firing range, at the automatic 16 range? 17 A: I believe so. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: It's the same spot that I marked out 20 on the map, where my -- 21 Q: And that's -- 22 A: -- great-grandfather's homestead was. 23 Q: That's where you marked it. And you 24 say you were asleep in the trailer: 25 "By that time I was never really -- I
261 never really thought too much of it, 2 just kind of put the pillow over my 3 head and went back to sleep when I 4 heard them flying around." 5 You remember giving that evidence last 6 week? 7 A: Yes. I was talking about the 8 helicopters. 9 Q: Yes. We're talking about the one on 10 the night of August 23, '93; that's the one, I take it, 11 you're referring to. And you were asleep, you say, on 12 that occasion; is that right? Do I have it right? 13 A: I believe so. 14 Q: All right. And the incident we -- 15 we're informed -- no doubt, the evidence about this -- 16 occurred at 10:23 p.m. That is -- it wasn't very late, 17 it was 10:23. I presume it, by then, in August, it was 18 dark but barely dark. It wouldn't have been dark for 19 long. 20 And so I gather -- is -- was that the 21 normal time you'd go to bed? 22 A: I get up at -- before 6:00 every 23 morning and go to bed pretty early too. 24 Q: You do, okay. Fair enough. I do as 25 well, I try to be in bed by then, so I understand. So
271 you -- you had gone to bed by that time and were sleeping 2 or trying to sleep? 3 A: That's what I remember, yes. 4 Q: Yes. Now there were -- there were -- 5 A: I don't know what time it was. 6 Q: Yeah. The evidence I think is going 7 to be that the shot or perhaps shots -- because there may 8 be some suggestions there was more than one (1), there 9 might have been two (2) -- were fired from the very 10 location that your -- the trailer was; that is -- that 11 was described as coming from the south end of that range. 12 So it was in the vicinity of -- of your brother's 13 trailer. 14 Did you hear the shot? 15 A: I never heard no shot. 16 Q: And were you aware, while you were in 17 your brother's trailer, that there -- that some -- some 18 person had been shining a spotlight from about that 19 location, in that vicinity, at the helicopter? 20 A: I wouldn't doubt it. That was 21 regular occurrence. Every time a helicopter came by, 22 they'd shine us up, so we -- somebody -- whoever had a 23 spotlight in hand would light them up too. 24 Q: All right. Okay. 25 A: But I didn't witness that. Like I
281 said, I was asleep. 2 Q: Now, I take it that firing a bullet 3 at a helicopter, you would describe as a serious matter? 4 A: It would be, yes. 5 Q: In fact it's something that could put 6 at risk the occupants of the helicopter? 7 A: I suppose so. 8 Q: Yeah. And we know that that night 9 there were four (4) persons in that helicopter. It's not 10 what you describe as a peaceful act, is it? 11 A: I guess not. 12 Q: No. And, indeed, you told us that 13 earlier in that summer in, I think, June of '93 that 14 you'd participated in a ceremony burying the hatchet and 15 planting a tree, right? 16 A: Peace tree, yes. 17 Q: Yes. And that was for the purpose of 18 -- of amongst yourself, you and the other occupiers 19 demonstrating amongst yourselves that you wanted to live 20 in peace, in a peaceful manner? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was that a peaceful manner 23 amongst the occupiers, that is that you wanted amongst 24 your group to live in a peaceful manner, one with the 25 other? Was that -- was it for that purpose?
291 A: For all purposes. Peace with each 2 other and peace with our neighbours. 3 Q: All right. So I gather, then, you 4 were -- you acknowledge that -- that an act of shooting a 5 bullet at a helicopter from the area in which the 6 occupiers were -- were located and living, was 7 inconsistent with that ceremony, and the intent of the 8 ceremony? 9 A: I'd have to disagree with that. Like 10 I said before, I don't believe the helicopter ever did 11 get shot at. Like you said, if the shots supposedly came 12 from the trailer where I was at, I would have obviously 13 heard it -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: -- if there was a police officer so 16 far down the road that could hear it. 17 Q: Well, we're -- Mr. Simon, we're no 18 doubt going to hear some detailed evidence about the 19 helicopter incident but let's assume for discussion 20 purposes this morning, that a shot did come from that 21 area, from someone occupying that area of the military 22 base, one (1) of the occupiers. Let's assume that for 23 the moment, for discussion purposes, all right. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Rosenthal.
301 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, and that's the 2 way he should have asked the question in the first place, 3 and Mr. Simon responded appropriately, and Mr. Roland's 4 tone is improper at this point. 5 He should say -- he should ask the 6 question hypothetically. We do not have any evidence as 7 to who, if anyone, shot at that helicopter. Mr. Simon's 8 opinion is that none of the First Nations people did. 9 Mr. Roland could ask him if a First 10 Nations people -- person did shoot at the helicopter, 11 would that be consistent with the burying the hatchet? 12 That's not the way he asked the question and Mr. Simon 13 answered very appropriately given the nature of the 14 question. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well I'm now asking the 16 question. I think I did ask it as a hypothetical. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: If someone, and I'll use My Friend's 20 language. I think I said assume someone did, so it's the 21 same as saying if someone from that area did shoot at the 22 helicopter, I gather you acknowledged Mr. Simon, that 23 that's not consistent with the intent of living 24 peacefully with your neighbours? 25 A: That'd be correct.
311 Q: All right. 2 A: But hypothetically, wouldn't that not 3 stop the flights of these helicopters? 4 Q: So you say -- 5 A: Hypothetically. 6 Q: So you're saying that if it did 7 happen, that it would have some useful purpose, is that 8 what you're telling us? 9 A: No, I'm not. I'm just saying. 10 Q: Well, isn't that what you're just 11 suggesting? That it maybe -- that it was useful and had 12 some useful purpose? Is that what you're telling us? 13 A: No, I'm not. 14 Q: Okay. And if one (1) of the 15 occupiers had shot at the helicopter that evening, I 16 gather those other occupiers there in the area would want 17 to detect who that person was and censor them, would you 18 not? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 20 Commissioner. Mr. Simon has testified he was asleep that 21 night. He was asked about his views as to what he would 22 have done, how he would have regarded it with respect to 23 the peace ceremony, and so on. 24 Now Mr. Roland wants to ask him about what 25 other people might have thought about it --
321 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- in light of it. 3 He doesn't know what other people thought. He testified 4 very forthrightly about what he thinks. Mr. Roland 5 should be instructed to move on, in my respectful 6 submission, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You say 8 you've got some other evidence about this helicopter 9 incident? 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well there is, as you 11 know, I assume, Mr. Commissioner, there's a -- something 12 called a helicopter brief which I'm told is many inches 13 thick, and is -- it's something that's been disclosed to 14 this Inquiry, and I assume that at some stage Commission 15 Counsel will be putting that evidence before the 16 Commission, but we're not at that stage yet. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As far as 18 this Witness is concerned -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- he's 21 testified that he was asleep when it happened. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 24 know -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: I understand that. What
331 I'm -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may have 3 gone as far as you can with this Witness, although you 4 may get some evidence -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: No -- no sir, I'm -- I'm 6 -- what I'm doing is putting a -- put -- I want to 7 explore the -- this Witness and his fellow occupiers' 8 reaction to the -- to -- to the possibility that there 9 was a shooting of the helicopter, and how they reacted to 10 that possibility. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, you 12 can ask him his reaction, but I think when you start 13 asking him about a hypothetical incident, how others may 14 react, I think you're going a bit too far. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Now, let me try it this way then, if 18 I could. Mr. Simon, you I gather, learned after the 19 incident of August 23, 1993, that at least the OPP and 20 the Military suspected that some Occupier had shot at the 21 helicopter. You learned that, did you not? 22 A: That's what I was told when I was 23 leaving -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- that morning.
341 Q: Yes. There was that and -- and that 2 was the point of the investigation that the OPP had 3 undertaken to determine if it could find some facts that 4 verified, or made out that suspicion, or not. Right? 5 Yeah? 6 A: And that's why I cooperated when I 7 left. I let them search my vehicle. 8 Q: Right. Right. 9 A: And so forth. 10 Q: As an Occupier, though, that wanted 11 to -- to occupy the Army Base in a peaceful manner, were 12 you not yourself concerned that one (1) of your fellow 13 occupiers may have shot at the helicopter? 14 A: I didn't think anybody did. Like I 15 said, I would have heard it if a -- 16 Q: I see. And -- but if you had reason 17 to believe that that might have happened -- if you had 18 reason to believe that might have happened, I take it it 19 would have concerned you? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 21 Commissioner. How many hypotheticals -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 23 asking the same question as if it were -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- hypotheticals 25 are we going to pile on here? Mr. Simon has said he did
351 not believe for a moment that any First Nations person 2 had shot at the helicopter. Maybe he's right, maybe he's 3 wrong about the fact, but his belief was no one shot at 4 it, so he didn't investigate it any further. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Roland has gone 7 much further than he should have been allowed to go, in 8 my respectful submission, already. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's 10 -- Yes, Mr. Roland, where are you going now? Are you 11 staying on this? 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: I am for a bit, yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 14 think that you better be careful how you ask the 15 questions then, because so far he said he didn't know 16 anything about it until after he was informed. There was 17 an investigation. When it was alleged to have occurred, 18 he was sleeping. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: All right. Mr. Simon, what did you 22 observe of the reaction of the -- your own community -- 23 of the occupiers to the suspicion of the OPP and the 24 Military that someone had shot at the helicopter? How 25 did -- how did your community react, and what did you
361 observe of that reaction? 2 A: What I observed was just in the 3 morning when I got up to leave I was told that there was 4 a -- and I could obviously see all of the police out 5 there. I asked what was going on, and they said they 6 were searching everybody, so I went out there, and 7 everybody was just as concerned as I was about what was 8 going on, and that's about that. 9 I went out there, and I was told by the 10 police that they were investigating a shooting and wanted 11 to search my truck. I let them search my truck, and away 12 I went off to work. 13 Q: Did -- did you participate in any 14 discussions amongst the occupiers about the seriousness 15 of this incident if there was someone in the area that 16 had shot at the helicopter? Had you discussed that with 17 your fellow occupiers? 18 A: Not at that time. I was gone; went 19 to work. 20 Q: Well, how about the next day? Or the 21 day after? 22 A: The next day I discussed it with 23 whoever I could, and it was -- everybody was the same 24 feeling as I was, that it never happened. 25 Q: I see.
371 A: That we were being set up by the 2 police, and the Army. 3 Q: All right. Let me -- could -- then 4 turn to another topic and that's guns at the Ipperwash 5 Army Camp, after the occupation began, in the possession 6 of the occupiers. 7 You told Mr. Millar on December the 1st, 8 which was last Wednesday, in the context of him asking 9 you about the Warrior Society, you said: 10 "Nobody owns any guns like that 11 anyway." 12 Do you remember saying that? 13 A: Vaguely. But if you read the rest 14 of... 15 Q: It's page 108 of the transcript of 16 December the 1st, in which you were asked: 17 "Q. And was there created a society, a 18 Warrior Society? 19 A: Oh. 20 Q: In the summer of 1993, or a society 21 of young people or among the occupiers? 22 A: Yeah, in a way, the -- when they 23 started they were talking to call it 24 Warrior Society but we had -- it had 25 been mentioned that a bunch of people
381 seen in the paper, they talk about 2 Warrior Society, they think of, like, 3 Oka and stuff like that where people 4 are masked and armed. And we had had 5 that ceremony where we had buried the 6 hatchet and we were always about living 7 in a peaceful manner." 8 You go on: 9 "Nobody really owned any guns like that 10 anyway, so -- but...". 11 And then it goes off to another area. 12 And when you said to Mr. Millar, you 13 volunteered to Mr. Millar: 14 "Nobody had any guns like that anyway," 15 What were you referring to? 16 A: May have been that I'm talking about 17 what I was thinking about what I had been seeing in the 18 paper and everybody else had obviously seen it in the 19 paper, of people wearing -- carrying, like, military 20 style M16s or AK47s or anything like that. 21 Q: I see. So that's what you're 22 referring to is the military style M16s or AK47s? 23 A: Well, something along those lines or 24 -- or that was like the thing that was in the paper all 25 the time, it always had a picture of a masked Mohawk with
391 a gun with a great big clip, and... 2 Q: Okay. You know that the occupiers 3 did have guns of -- for the purpose of hunting? 4 A: Well, at certain points, yes. 5 Q: Well, you were living with your 6 brother, Marlin, in his trailer. And he's testified that 7 he had some eight (8) to ten (10) guns while he was there 8 as an occupier and he hunted some four (4) to five (5) 9 times a week. He testified that he had some shotguns, he 10 had a .22 semi-automatic magnum, he had a regular .22 and 11 he had a couple of high-powered, semi-automatic rifles. 12 I take it you were aware of that, you were living with 13 him. 14 A: I don't believe he had all of them at 15 the same time. I believe that's how many he had over the 16 course of a number of years. 17 Q: Well, he said that he had those all 18 at one (1) time, in his evidence, but that's September 19 28/04, page 196-197. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Rosenthal? Yes, Mr. Rosenthal? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't recall 23 the reference, but did he say, Mr. Roland, that he had 24 those at Kettle Point or in his trailer? 25
401 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that my 4 friend, Mr. Rosenthal, may be right. I have -- I don't 5 have the reference, but he did, Mr. Simon, speak about 6 keeping his hunting rifles in Kettle Point but he may 7 have said as well that he had them at the Army Camp. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: In any event, he did -- you saw that 11 there were -- that he had these guns from time to time? 12 A: He had various guns, some -- long 13 before he ever moved into the Army Camp. 14 Q: Yes. And did you go hunting with him 15 from time to time? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And did you use his -- one (1) or 18 other of his guns to hunt with? 19 A: Once in a while, yes. 20 Q: All right. And did you use the high- 21 powered, semi-automatic rifles that had? 22 A: Usually just a .22 or a shotgun. 23 Q: Let me turn to the Warrior Society. 24 You were shown the document that is 2002504, which are 25 the -- the Minutes...
411 A: What was that number again...? 2 Q: It's 2002504. They're the minutes of 3 that are -- that -- of a meeting that occurred August 13, 4 '93. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Mr. Millar's putting it up on the 9 screen. And you were asked about this and you were very 10 concerned about how the document came into the possession 11 of the OPP. And why were you concerned about that? 12 A: Well, I mentioned it. I made it 13 clear that my understand -- the question I had was if 14 that document was taken during -- after the shooting of 15 the helicopter -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: As you know, there was a -- a raid, I 18 guess you'd call it, where the police were looking for -- 19 were looking for weapons and stuff like that on -- on the 20 base after the incident with the helicopter -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: When I'd gotten home from work that 23 day, I was told by a number of people who were concerned 24 with documents that were inside of the -- the Council 25 Hall or as they may have called it, the Argument Hall.
421 There had been a number of documents and 2 they were concerned about the police that were in there 3 taking pictures of all the documents, flipping through 4 boxes -- boxes of stuff. 5 Q: You've told us that you became a 6 member of this society, although it didn't have the name 7 Warrior Society, at some later stage it changed it's name 8 as you told us. 9 And I gather you attended meetings of this 10 society from time to time, did you? 11 A: From time to time? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Like I said, I never really 14 considered them meetings but ... 15 Q: Well were -- like the document that 16 we see in front of us on the screen, were minutes kept of 17 those meetings? 18 A: Very well could have. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: I've never kept no... 21 Q: Have you seen any minutes of those 22 meetings? 23 A: No, I haven't. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: It's the first time I've even seen
431 one. 2 Q: But I take it this wasn't a secret 3 society, was it? 4 A: No. 5 Q: There was nothing secret about it? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And so if there are minutes, there 8 would be no reason not to have those disclosed to the 9 Commission, I take it? 10 A: I guess not. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm told, Mr. 15 Commissioner, that at Marlin Simon's evidence, at page 16 145, line 18, he indicated that he pretty well kept his 17 guns with him all the time. 28th of September. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 22 Q: Let me turn if I could, to another 23 area. The argument hall. You've told us about the fact 24 that -- 25 A: You back up there a second, when you
441 mentioned about my brother? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: That's -- you're -- you're talking in 4 relation to the helicopter incident? 5 Q: No, I'm talking about just generally 6 about the guns that he -- he testified in context of the 7 guns that he pretty well kept them with him most of the 8 time or all the time. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 10 my recollection for what it's worth, Mr. Roland. I don't 11 want to go back over all the evidence. I'm not sure when 12 he said "all the time". Maybe he meant when he was 13 hunting because I do remember him leaving the guns back 14 at Kettle Point. 15 Now I don't have the transcript in front 16 of me, but there was quite an extensive examination on 17 that. It wasn't just one (1) line. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He did say that it 19 was back at Kettle Point. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Where did you store 21 your rifles? This is page 145, line 1: 22 "Where did you store your rifles? 23 A: Where? 24 Q: When you weren't hunting. 25 A: Whenever I wasn't hunting?
451 Different places down Kettle Point. 2 Let's see, I had them in Kettle Point 3 and maybe even at the trailer where we 4 were staying or if we were going away 5 we would leave them at a friend's house 6 or something. 7 Q: And why would you leave them at 8 your friend's house if you're going 9 away? 10 A: We didn't want to leave them down 11 there because a lot of people go 12 through -- go through the things, go 13 through our stuff and just didn't want 14 them go missing? 15 Q: Okay. And where would you store 16 your -- your rifles or not store them, 17 but where would you keep them during 18 your active hunting periods? 19 A: Where did I keep them? Pretty 20 much with me all the time. 21 Q: Why is that?" 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When he's 23 hunting. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 "A: Just -- you really -- you weren't
461 really sure when you were going to see 2 an animal you'd like to eat and they 3 would just pretty much pop up 4 whenever." 5 Excuse me, I went a little too far. 6 "Q: Okay, is it fair to say that -- 7 that hunting for wildlife was one (1) 8 of the ways that you provided for your 9 livelihoods down there? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Did you ever use your rifles for 12 any other purposes other than hunting? 13 A: Just target shooting. We'd zone 14 in our scopes or whatever so we'd be 15 shooting right -- right dead on." 16 And then they move into target shooting. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, you 18 are going to great pains to point to me that it was when 19 he was hunting, but I remind you that the evidence is 20 that he was hunting four (4) or five (5) times a week. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 22 think we can agree that he had his guns with him when he 23 was hunting. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 25 THE WITNESS: May I point out that at the
471 time, if we are still talking about the helicopter 2 incident -- I'm not too sure if that's what you're 3 talking about -- but at the time of the helicopter, my 4 brother was incarcerated at the time -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: -- so obviously he would 7 not have -- 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: I understand. No, I -- we -- 11 actually we weren't talking about the helicopter 12 incident, but thank you for that. 13 Let me take you, if I could, to the 14 Argument Hall. You told us that it was a -- a church at 15 one (1) time. That it had -- had had a steeple on it. I 16 take it that's at the beginning, that was when it was 17 first used as a building. Is that right? First 18 constructed? 19 A: Somewheres around there. 20 Q: Yes. And then you told us it was a 21 Council Hall. What council are we talking about? 22 A: Stony Point Council. 23 Q: All right. And were there a lot of 24 arguments about what was going on at Stony Point amongst 25 the Council or amongst the community?
481 A: Amongst the Community, yes. There 2 was different disagreements as would any other community 3 with a fresh start. 4 Q: And were those disagreements about 5 how to pursue the land claim of Ipperwash Army Base? 6 A: From what I witnessed, most of it was 7 more of a personal matter. 8 Q: I see. It wasn't about the -- the 9 way in which to pursue the objectives of the group? 10 A: Along those lines everybody seemed to 11 be pretty unified, but like I said, most of the arguments 12 were all on a personal matter. 13 Q: So, when you talk about a lot of 14 arguments, so that it was renamed the Argument Hall, what 15 you're telling us is, the topics of argument were 16 personal as opposed to topics about the occupation 17 itself? 18 A: At one (1) point it seemed that 19 that's what it deteriorated to, so -- I never said it was 20 renamed, it was just a nickname by a few of us younger 21 people. 22 Q: I see. Mr. Millar asked you about 23 interaction with the OPP during the time you occupied the 24 Army Camp, apart from the helicopter incident; ignore the 25 helicopter incident for -- for a moment. And you, when
491 asked about that -- this is at page 123 -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Which date? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- of December the 1st. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: It's at line 15. 7 "Okay, and did you have any interaction 8 with the Ontario Provincial Police 9 during the time -- period of time that 10 you were on the Army Camp except for 11 the incident with respect to the 12 helicopter?" 13 And then your answer really didn't focus 14 upon the OPP, but rather on the Military. You said: 15 "There was a few times where different 16 stuff had happened. If I don't know -- 17 if -- I don't know if I happened to 18 cross them, they'd -- from time to time 19 they'd be chasing somebody and they'd 20 come in on our property." 21 Now, stopping there, are we referring to 22 the OPP or the Military? 23 A: I was referring to the OPP there. 24 The Military, they were usually there anyways. 25 Q: I see.
501 A: Doing their range patrols and stuff. 2 Q: Okay. And so you say the OPP were 3 chasing people and came onto the Base? 4 A: A few times, yes. 5 Q: I see. 6 A: Well, that's what they had stated to 7 me when I approached them. 8 Q: Okay. And you said: 9 "If we found them, we would stop them 10 and tell them that they were -- they 11 were the ones trespassing, basically 12 treat them the same way they treated 13 all of us these years. So they weren't 14 --" 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: "They treated us 16 all these years." 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: "Treated us all these years. 20 So they weren't -- weren't too eager to 21 do that too much so it didn't happen -- 22 really happen too much, too often." 23 Are you telling us that the -- from time 24 to time the OPP did come onto the -- the Army Camp, where 25 you and the other occupiers were living, in pursuit of
511 somebody and that you discouraged them from coming onto 2 it because it was -- you treated it as trespassing? 3 A: That's not what I'm saying. What I 4 said is that we'd ran into them at certain times. When 5 I'd approached them I'd ask what they were doing there. 6 They'd -- basically said it was none of my business. 7 So when I'd ask again and state who I was 8 and why I felt it was my business, they basically ignored 9 me. So I'd ignore -- ignore them back and told them -- 10 tell them to leave. 11 Q: I see. But -- 12 A: So it -- it was my belief that a lot 13 of these times that they'd be in there just to spy on us 14 or maybe make trouble. So -- 15 Q: But you did -- 16 A: -- what's the use of chasing of 17 somebody if they weren't going to be forthcoming with any 18 sort of information? Then it's my understand that 19 they're there to harass us, and we'd tell them to leave. 20 Q: And you said, It didn't happen too 21 much too often. How many times in your experience, your 22 own experience, did it occur while you were an occupier 23 that the OPP -- let's take between July -- sorry, May '93 24 and July '95, before you went into the barracks, in that 25 a little over two (2) year period, how many occurrences
521 do you say the OPP came onto the Base -- sorry, onto the 2 Camp, where you were occupying, and you confronted them? 3 A: They've come on a number of times 4 from what I was told. But myself personally, I'd say 5 maybe -- maybe three (3) times. 6 Q: All right. Now, apart from the -- 7 the OPP, I gather the -- the Military Police patrolled 8 the Army Camp on a regular basis? 9 A: Yes, they did. 10 Q: In fact we heard from Clifford George 11 that it, as he understood, I think it was twice a day 12 that they did a regular patrol of the Army Base; and I 13 gather that's your experience as well, or something like 14 that? 15 A: Something like that at least. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Sometimes more, sometimes less, I 18 don't know. 19 Q: And I take it you didn't have any 20 issue with the Military patrolling the -- the entire Army 21 Base on a regular basis? 22 A: As long as they basically left us 23 alone. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: Sometimes you're run into -- meet
531 them in the bush, the roads inside -- inside Aazhoodena 2 are fairly narrow. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: Usually have to make somebody back 5 up, something like that, so... 6 Q: All right. Let me turn, if I could, 7 to the incident of the tires of Marlin's, your brother, 8 being slashed by, you say, a military guy who was drunk; 9 remember talking about that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, as I understand it, you talked 12 about Marlin's vehicle being slashed. As I reviewed his 13 evidence, he talked about his bicycle tires being 14 slashed. 15 Do you understand it was his bicycle 16 tires; that was the vehicle? 17 A: It was a four-wheeler. 18 Q: All right. And do I understand that 19 that led to a meeting with the police in Argument Hall, 20 and it was at that meeting you met Robert Isaac and Ed 21 Isaac? 22 A: Yes, I believe so. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
541 Q: And that was in -- at the end of 2 June, early July 1995? 3 A: I'm not too sure what the dates were. 4 I just remember, it was before I moved into the barracks. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Because we were still down on the 7 ranges. My cousin Wallah's (phonetic) car, his tires had 8 been slashed. Speakers -- or -- had holes ripped in 9 them. The stereo was ripped out the dash. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Nothing was stolen, it was just 12 vandalized. 13 Q: Okay. But your recollection is -- is 14 it was some time shortly before you occupied the 15 barracks? 16 A: Sometime before, I'm not sure about 17 shortly. 18 Q: And Marlin's evidence was that you 19 just kind of had regular meetings after that. Do you 20 remember there being regular meetings of the occupiers 21 after that meeting that occurred in Argument Hall? 22 A: Regular meetings with? 23 Q: Amongst the occupiers? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No?
551 A: Could have been. There was always 2 some sort of meeting taking place. Like I said before, I 3 wasn't always there during the day. I missed a lot of 4 stuff. 5 Q: All right, let me turn if I could to 6 the -- the questions you were asked on December the 1st 7 by Mr. Millar concerning discussions with the OPP about 8 the Park and about reclaiming the Park and I'm -- for My 9 Friends' assistance, I'm starting at page 148 of December 10 the 1st. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And the question was: 15 "Prior to September 4, 1994 -- '95, had 16 you had any discussions or -- with the 17 OPP or the -- about the Park and the 18 reclaiming of the Park?" 19 Answer: 20 "Oh yeah, from time to time. Every 21 chance we got we'd tell them that." 22 And it goes on -- we'll -- I'll deal with 23 that in a minute. But when asked about discussions, I -- 24 I take it there was no official discussions, that you 25 didn't -- you weren't part -- either alone or with other
561 occupiers -- approached by nor did you approach the OPP 2 for the purposes of discussing taking over or reclaiming 3 the Park, did you? 4 A: Kind of hard to answer that. We've 5 always tried to but -- like I said, but, being who we 6 are, we're not recognized as -- by the government or OPP 7 or anybody else like that to have -- supposedly have that 8 right. 9 And they've been more than willing to tell 10 us that on numerous occasions. So I don't see what 11 you're getting at. 12 Q: Well, I gather you would, from time 13 to time, come across an OPP officer or maybe more than 14 one OPP officer in the Camp or in the vicinity of the 15 Park and there would be some comment you would make. 16 For example, I think you said in your 17 evidence at Page 148: 18 "I told them a few times, whatever 19 chance I got, and it was going to 20 happen sometime but I never, ever knew 21 of an exact date or anything like 22 that". 23 And I gather what you were -- you would 24 come across an OPP officer, officers, and you'd make a 25 comment to them about the fact that it was going to
571 happen? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: I just told them it was our land. 5 Q: Yeah. And you told us that. But you 6 didn't, I gather, have any discussions with them about 7 the process or about the appropriateness of doing it? 8 You didn't have any kind of discussion in 9 which you were looking for feedback from the OPP officers 10 about their views or anything like that, did you? 11 A: I'd get feedback. They'd basically 12 laugh at me and tell me what right -- tell me, who are 13 you to have any right to say anything like that, kind of 14 -- type of deal, so I never really thought the -- that 15 there'd be any point to further discussions with them if 16 they weren't going to take it seriously or recognize. 17 Q: You knew, did you not, Mr. Simon, 18 that it wasn't for the OPP to make any decisions about 19 whether or not it was appropriate for you and your fellow 20 occupiers to take over or reclaim the Park? 21 That wasn't the role of the OPP, was it? 22 A: Say that again? 23 Q: The role of the OPP wasn't to -- 24 wasn't to negotiate with you about taking back the Park? 25 A: They would be the ones, definitely,
581 running the road blocks or whatever -- 2 Q: Is that -- 3 A: -- that they ended up doing as it 4 turns out. But, yes, you're correct. We feel that we're 5 a nation on ourselves and who we should be negotiating 6 with would be with the Queen. 7 Q: Yeah, with the government, or the 8 government's representatives, right? 9 A: At least the federal, not a 10 provincial. 11 Q: Yeah. But you wouldn't be 12 negotiating with the OPP would you? They're not -- they 13 -- they're not a decision maker on whether or not you can 14 go back into the Park or reclaim the Park or not, are 15 they? 16 A: I guess not. 17 Q: No. I gather what you wanted to do 18 at most was to alert the OPP that something might happen, 19 that is that you or your fellow occupiers at some time in 20 the future, undefined, you said you didn't know when it 21 was going to happen -- may act on their own accord, and 22 simply themselves retake the Park, or take possession of 23 the Park. You wanted to let the OPP know that, I gather. 24 A: That would be my intention, yes. 25 Q: And -- and I gather the reason you
591 wanted to let the OPP know that is so that it wouldn't be 2 a surprise to them, that they would be prepared to deal 3 with you as occupiers of the Park? 4 A: In a way, yes. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I don't know about occupiers. Like, 7 you occupy your own land. But yes, we told them never - 8 - numerous times that we were going to do that. 9 Q: Yeah. And then you told us that 10 after you occupied the Park that neither you nor your 11 other fellow occupiers wanted to speak with the OPP about 12 the occupation, because you were worried that if you did 13 -- any individual Occupier did -- they would be 14 identified as a leader. Right? 15 A: That would be one (1) of the reasons, 16 yes. 17 Q: And you didn't want to be identified 18 as a leader because you were worried -- and your fellow 19 occupiers were worried -- that that individual identified 20 as a leader would be targeted in some way. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And so the result was 23 that you purposely did not engage the OPP in any 24 discussions about the occupation after it occurred? 25 A: After the occupation had occurred?
601 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yeah, like, once again, I want to 3 stress that I can't really talk for everybody, but my 4 intention was -- was after that. 5 Q: All right. And, Mr. Simon, let's 6 just deal with you then. What did you then -- anticipate 7 or expect would be the -- the kind or means of 8 communication? 9 Who did you expect, or how did you expect 10 some communication to occur with someone on the other 11 side of your dispute? 12 A: Well, obviously it wouldn't start 13 with somebody coming up there with a gun levelled at you, 14 and full body armour. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: As we stated may times we were a 17 peaceful people, and meaningful negotiations would 18 start -- 19 Q: But -- 20 A: -- in a peaceful manner. 21 Q: But with whom? 22 A: With the Government. 23 Q: I see. So, did you -- 24 A: Police are agents of the Government. 25 Q: I see. You saw the police as agents
611 of the Government for the purpose of negotiating land 2 claims? 3 A: Not for the purpose of negotiating, 4 no. 5 Q: No. I didn't think so. And so are 6 you saying that you expected, then, some Government 7 official to approach the occupiers in the Park for the 8 purposes of negotiations? 9 A: Somebody with, I guess, the authority 10 to do so. 11 Q: Yeah. And did you communicate that 12 intent or that hope to the police that you would -- you 13 would entertain negotiations with the Government, or some 14 representative of the Queen for the purposes of 15 negotiations of the land claims? 16 A: Like I said, we never talked to the 17 police, so who would we talk to? The police weren't 18 allowing people in. 19 Q: Okay, I'm told this would be a good 20 time for the morning break. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless 22 you're close to being finished. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, I've got -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'd be 25 happy to wait for you to finish.
621 MR. IAN ROLAND: I've got a little more 2 distance to go. Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 4 break. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 6 we break, I might advise my Friends, we marked last week 7 Exhibit 21 from the Deane trial, which was I think 8 Exhibit P-106 -- 103, I believe. 9 I located on Friday, and was going to send 10 an e-mail, but I neglected to do so, Exhibit 21A, which 11 was also marked at the Deane trial during the cross- 12 examination of Mr. Simon, and it's here and available if 13 anyone wants it. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. We'll take a fifteen (15) minute recess. 16 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 17 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 11:44 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 11:59 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
631 Q: Thank you. Mr. Simon, I'm going to 2 turn to the -- the picnic table incident in the parking 3 lot on September the 5th, right? You've already 4 testified to that. 5 And before I turn to it, let me ask you in 6 preparation for testifying before this Inquiry last week, 7 had you read your brother Marlin's testimony? 8 A: No, I didn't. 9 Q: Had you discussed his testimony with 10 -- with him, or with your Counsel, or with anybody? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: No. So you didn't discuss his 13 testimony in particular with respect to the picnic table 14 incident at all? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. I ask you that because 17 let me tell you, that we've heard from a good number of 18 witnesses about the picnic table incident on September 19 the 5th, and apart from your brother, who testified that 20 at least in-chief, that there were two (2) incidents. 21 There was the one in which the police 22 vehicle pushed, or attempted to push, the picnic table, 23 and then another incident later in which the officers 24 approached the fence, and there was the pepper spray 25 incident.
641 Apart from your brother, as I understand 2 it, all of the other persons who talked about the picnic 3 table incident said those two (2) events happened one (1) 4 right after the other, with the same officers involved. 5 And -- and your evidence, as I understood 6 it and read it, was that there were two (2) separate 7 events, as opposed to one (1) single event that was 8 continuous. 9 And I take it that's how you recall it, as 10 two (2) separate events, is it? 11 A: That's the way I recall it, yes. 12 Q: All right. We're going to hear 13 evidence, I think, from -- from the police officers that 14 it was really one (1) continuing event, and your brother 15 was asked about this in cross-examination. I'm going to 16 October 18, '04 at Page 31 and 32 to begin. 17 And he had put to him the statement of a 18 Constable Wayland (phonetic), Document Number 2003958. 19 In his statement he says that at 10:15 at night he 20 observes several natives carrying picnic tables onto the 21 roadway lot at Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 22 And your brother was asked: 23 "Does that time sound -- sound about to 24 you that it would have been about ten 25 o'clock at night?"
651 And your brother says, yes. 2 Now, you testified to us earlier that you 3 thought it had occurred earlier in the evening. Does 4 that help you, that it may have occurred later around 5 10:15 on September the 5th? 6 A: I was pretty sure it was still light 7 out, so, no it doesn't help me. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: It was such a long time ago, too. I 10 never wore a watch at the time -- 11 Q: I understand. 12 A: -- and a number of reasons. 13 Q: I understand. 14 A: But I do recall that they had left 15 before they had come back -- the two incidents. There 16 was a -- 17 Q: Well let me just take you through 18 that with your brother's evidence in cross-examination 19 because he was then asked at Page 35: 20 "How many people do you say that were 21 there?" 22 That is, how many occupiers. And he said: 23 "About a -- probably about a dozen, 24 maybe." 25 And he goes on to be asked the question:
661 "And you told the Commissioner that a 2 cruiser came by and the officers told 3 you to go back into the Park. Do you 4 recall that?" 5 "Yeah". 6 Do you remember the officers telling you 7 to go back into the Park? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: All right. And at the -- question: 10 And that the officer was actually out 11 of his car and asked you to go back 12 into the Park". 13 Answer: 14 "Hmm hmm." 15 So your brother's acknowledging that that 16 happened. Do you recall that? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: All right. "And you refused to do 19 so?" That's a question. Answer: 20 "Yeah." 21 I take it you don't recall that, either? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: Okay. And the question goes on: 24 "Okay, and I'm going to suggest to you 25 that you never said anything to that
671 officer about being afraid of people 2 coming to the area or bothering you. 3 You told them it was a public roadway 4 and you could be there if you liked". 5 Answer, this is your brother's answer: 6 "Could have, I'm not sure, I'm not." 7 Q: Okay 8 A: Been a long time. 9 Q: Well in your evidence to the 10 Commissioner -- 11 Hmm hmm." 12 Was his answer. 13 "Q: You told him on the 29th -- the 14 29th of September that you told the 15 police it was a public roadway and you 16 could sit there if you liked. Do you 17 remember that?" 18 A: Yeah, I probably would have yelled 19 it at them. They weren't really -- we 20 weren't really talking to the police." 21 Okay, do you remember that? Do you 22 remember that there was -- that there was some yelling, 23 and indeed your brother yelling that it was a public 24 roadway? 25 And that -- and that something to the
681 effect that you could be there if you liked? 2 A: I don't recall any discussions there 3 with the incident with the picnic tables happened. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Like I said, I was sitting on a 6 table, my back to the direction that the officers came 7 from. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And then at Page 39, the question: 12 "And I'm going to suggest that point in 13 time that you and others were yelling 14 at those officers, and spitting at 15 them, and making threatening gestures 16 towards them." 17 Answer, this is your brother's answer: 18 "You're saying that we're threatening 19 the police officers? 20 Q: And yelling at them and spitting at 21 them. 22 A: And these are police officers that 23 are driving at us with their cars? 24 Q: No, I'm saying at the time that 25 after you threw a picnic table at one
691 of the cruisers, I'm saying that after 2 that point in time you were yelling and 3 spitting at the officers, and making 4 threatening gestures towards them. 5 A: We were throwing rocks, and hitting 6 them with rocks, and pelting them. We 7 were stoning them, I guess. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I don't know. We would have been 10 yelling, yeah, sure. 11 Q: Sure. And at this point in time, 12 you're still in the sandy parking lot 13 area, is that right? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And can you help us 16 understand where the stones came from 17 and you were throwing -- that you were 18 throwing at the officers in the sandy 19 parking lot area?" 20 A: From the gravel on the edge of the 21 sandy parking lot." 22 Now, do you remember that, that you were 23 throwing -- your -- at least your brother's evidence is 24 that at that stage you were -- some of the occupiers were 25 picking up stones and -- around the sandy parking lot
701 gravelled area, and throwing them at the police officers? 2 A: I just remember the picnic table 3 being tossed on the car after they rammed that table. 4 And then -- I don't know. There would have been a lot of 5 yelling going on after that incident. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And then I remember that they had 8 left. And after, when they'd come back there was the 9 incident with the -- the pepper-spraying and they'd 10 threatened Dudley. That's when I remember that there was 11 a lot of rocks being thrown. 12 Q: Okay. Well let me go on and see if 13 this helps. Your brother says: 14 "Rocks from the gravel, yeah. 15 Q:" 16 This is on page 41. 17 "Okay. I'm going to suggest to you 18 that at that point in time a few more 19 cruisers arrived? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Do you agree with that? And I'm 22 going to suggest to you that they also 23 told you to get back into the Park; do 24 you remember that? 25 A: Sure. And I'm going to suggest to
711 you that you and others refused to get 2 back into the Park? 3 A: Sure." 4 Now does that help you, that other 5 officers then arrived and told you -- directed you to get 6 back into the Park? 7 A: I don't remember that. Like I said, 8 there could have been other cars back on the roadway, but 9 what you just stated there, I don't recall that. 10 Q: Okay. Let me see if this helps. On 11 page 43 -- sorry, 42: 12 "Q: I did -- I take it then since you 13 refused to go back in the Park, that 14 the police then took measures to get 15 you back in the Park? 16 A: I don't know. Yeah, I guess. 17 Maybe. I don't know. We didn't -- let 18 me think here. This is a public 19 parking lot, and I don't know, I guess 20 we don't count as being public. So we 21 were forced back into the Provincial 22 Park, I guess, I don't know. 23 Q: Sure. And I think you have told 24 us once you were back -- once you were 25 back in the Park you -- you started
721 throwing rocks at the police and the 2 cruisers? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Yeah. And I take it that the 5 police were not throwing anything at 6 you? 7 A: " -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 -- "Outside from pepper spray, yeah, 12 sure." 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 Rosenthal...? 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 17 Mr. Roland, for the last five (5) minutes, has been 18 reading very leading questions as to Marlin Simon. He's 19 gotten answers, I don't know, and sometimes Yes, and 20 sometimes Sure, and so on. The main content is the 21 question, not the answer. 22 Mr. Kevin Simon has already indicated his 23 answers with respect to all of those matters, that he 24 didn't recall that. His recollection is different. 25 Whether Mr. Marlin Simon is more accurate, or Mr. Kevin
731 Simon is more accurate, will be determined at the end of 2 the day perhaps. 3 But my friend is now reading his version 4 of the events, primarily by reading the questions over 5 and over again, and it has to stop at some point, when 6 Mr. Simon, Mr. Kevin Simon has indicated his answers very 7 clearly. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 9 he'll stop at some point. He's asking him if his 10 recollection is the same or different, and so far Mr. 11 Simon's been able to answer the questions when they're -- 12 when it's different. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 15 any -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- IĈm not 17 confident he can answer questions for a week, Mr. 18 Commissioner, and I'm suggesting it's not useful for Mr. 19 Roland to be reading his leading questions that have 20 equivocal answers from Mr. Marlin Simon, continually. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll see 22 how far it goes, Mr. Rosenthal. I haven't seen anything 23 that I think is improper yet, in terms of cross- 24 examination. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, you'll be happy,
741 sir, that I'm almost finished this part of -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I 3 assumed you might be. And if you were going on for 4 weeks, then I think we would all stop you, Mr. Roland. 5 But -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I'm sure you 7 would, Mr. Commissioner, I wouldn't have to rise after 8 the first week, I donĈt imagine. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: So the question was, just where I was 12 interrupted, the question: 13 "Yeah. And I take it that the police 14 were not throwing anything at you? 15 A: Outside from pepper spray, yeah, 16 sure." 17 So he says, Yeah, they -- they weren't 18 throwing anything but they did pepper-spray them. 19 "Q: Okay. And the police didn't go 20 into the Park? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 23 you that what the police did was try to 24 remove, and move the picnic tables, and 25 get you back in the Park?
751 A: Yeah. I think they might have 2 removed some picnic tables, yeah. 3 Q: Sure. And you told the Commission 4 that there were some broken cruiser 5 windows and dents on the cars? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And did you -- do you agree with 8 me that you were throwing rocks in 9 order to cause damage to the vehicles? 10 A: We were trying to throw rocks to 11 get the police to take off and leave us 12 alone." 13 Now stopping here, Mr. Simon, your brother 14 in cross-examination seems to acknowledge that this was 15 all one (1) event as opposed to two (2) events. 16 Does that help you at all in recalling it, 17 that it was one (1) event as opposed to two (2)? 18 A: I still recall it as two (2) events. 19 Q: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If I'm not 21 mistaken, Mr. Roland, these are your words -- one (1) 22 event or two (2) events, if I'm not mistaken. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, they are. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can't 25 recall. Yes.
761 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, they are. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: But what we've heard -- 4 what we've heard from other witnesses apart from your 5 brother is that this is all a continuing event. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 7 understand. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: We haven't heard it as 9 two (2) events until now. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 11 understand. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes we have, Mr. 13 Commissioner. On page 50 of October 18, Marlin Simon 14 says: 15 "I think the police regrouped and came 16 back again." 17 Perhaps we should look at -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 19 fine. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- page 50 of 21 October 18. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
771 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Line 20. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: All right. And that's true and it 8 went on at page 52 to say: 9 "I'm not sure at what time they came 10 back --" 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps we -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could -- My 13 Friend could read in the -- 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Right. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the portion that 16 Mr. Rosenthal referred to. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Be happy to. 18 "Okay. Question: Okay, I anticipate 19 that we'll hear evidence from the 20 police that that's exactly what 21 happened and I take it you disagree 22 with that?" 23 Sorry, I should have started earlier. 24 That has to do with the fact that they were there at the 25 same time and moved them back into the Park. His answer
781 -- this is the answer that Mr. Rosenthal wanted me to 2 read: 3 "Let's see. I think the police left 4 and regrouped and then they came back. 5 Yes." 6 And then over on page 52, he says, at the 7 bottom of page 52: 8 "I'm not sure at what time they came 9 back or not. Nothing like that. They 10 did leave earlier a couple of times 11 that night -- earlier a couple of times 12 that night." 13 He's already agreed to that -- Mr. 14 Commissioner, that the event began at 10:15. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: In any event, all of that is -- is to 19 say that none of this helps you, I take it, Mr. Simon, to 20 -- to compress these two (2) events into a single event? 21 A: They happened on the same night. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Other than that -- or evening, I 24 should say. I -- I recalled that happening. 25 Q: And --
791 A: The thing with the picnic table? I 2 recall that being, like, daylight and when they came back 3 they'd obviously brought a lot more 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- officers. That's when the -- the 6 pepper spray and the -- threat on Dudley took place, was 7 later on. 8 Q: I see. And you -- 9 A: What you're saying isn't helping. 10 Q: All right. And you agree with me, I 11 take it, that at 10:15 in the evening it's not daylight 12 any longer? 13 A: I would assume so. 14 Q: All right. Now, whether it's one (1) 15 event or two (2) events, let me ask you about the latter 16 part of the -- the -- the incident or incidents; that is, 17 that led up to the comments you've identified and the 18 pepper spray. 19 And I take it you agree that the -- when 20 the police came back they simply tried to force the 21 occupiers from the sandy parking lot into the Park? That 22 they -- they -- their presence -- their very presence 23 moving towards the fence line had those occupiers that 24 were in the sandy parking lot go back into the Park? 25 A: My impression was that they were
801 there to -- for a fight, calling people names and stuff 2 like that. 3 Q: Well, they certainly had -- 4 A: It had the effect of everybody going 5 back into the Park. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: They never said that that's what they 8 wanted. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: They came there bashing their clubs 11 and calling names. 12 Q: And you've told us, Mr. Simon, that 13 after the police left on September 4th, that is, left the 14 Park, they didn't go back into the Park on that day, 15 September the 4th, or on September the 5th, or on 16 September the 6th? Do you recall saying that? 17 A: That's what I recall, but shortly 18 after the one (1) lady who had asked me that was -- 19 stated there was one (1). Vince had gone in, so -- 20 Q: Yeah. But certainly there was no -- 21 there was no incident in which any of the OPP officers 22 went into the Park or certainly for the purpose of 23 removing any occupiers from the Park? 24 A: No, there wasn't. 25 Q: No, and --
811 A: Not when I was present, anyway. 2 Q: And even in the picnic table 3 incident, or incidents, there was no suggestion that the 4 police intended or did go into the Park on the 5th of 5 September, was there? They didn't indicate that they 6 were going to go in and they didn't make any attempt to 7 go in. 8 A: They never made no attempt to tell us 9 they weren't going to, either. 10 Q: Right. But isn't it fair, Mr. Simon, 11 that -- and clear that throughout this period of time, 12 the Park, for the occupiers, was a sanctuary; that is, it 13 was a place where they were safe from the OPP? 14 A: I don't know about that. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. -- 16 I'm sorry, yes, Mr. Scullion? Do you have an objection? 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may, My Friend 18 is also skipping over the evidence of Roderick George 19 that indicates that the police were hovering about the, 20 quote, "sanctuary", as My Friend's termed it, in their 21 helicopter on each of those days. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 23 asking him a question on cross-examination. He can 24 respond the way he wishes. It really is cross- 25 examination and we have to give Counsel a chance to
821 finish. Carry on, Mr. Roland. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: So my question was, Mr. Simon, that 5 isn't it so that on the 5th -- 4th, 5th, and 6th of 6 September the Park was, in effect, a sanctuary for the 7 occupiers? They were safe inside the Park and the events 8 in which they were confronted by the OPP were outside the 9 Park boundaries? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 11 Henderson? I mean this is not -- this is cross- 12 examination. Cross-examination, he's entitled to ask 13 questions. The Witness can answer them anyway he wishes. 14 Agree, not agree or say something else. 15 Yes, Mr. Henderson, what is it? 16 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, I take your 17 point on the breadth. When we -- when we talk, I mean, 18 if we're going to use a mediaeval term like "sanctuary" 19 the important thing, surely, is that people know that 20 it's a sanctuary? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I mean 22 if he doesn't know, he'll say he doesn't know, what is a 23 sanctuary. We have to give -- 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Fair enough. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Counsel
831 some degree of latitude in cross-examination. Yes, Mr. 2 Roland? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Shall I ask the question 4 again or do you need the question asked again, Mr. Simon 5 or are you ready to answer it? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He answered it. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, I didn't -- I 9 missed the answer then. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 11 he must ask the question again, because he has two (2) 12 questions simultaneously. That was the problem that I 13 was going to object to. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He asked one (1), 16 was it a sanctuary? And then he asked, and then the 17 police didn't enter the Park. Now those are two (2) 18 different questions. If he would ask whichever one he 19 wants to and let Mr. Simon answer and then ask the other 20 one. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fair. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That would be 23 appropriate. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 25 Mr. Rosenthal.
841 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: Well I think I've already asked the 4 question about the police going into the Park. Let me 5 ask you, was -- wasn't it so, Mr. Simon, that the -- the 6 Park was a safe place for the occupiers? 7 A: I don't know about that. Not when 8 we're being surrounded the way we were and as Mr. 9 Scullion pointed out the helicopters -- 10 Q: I see. 11 A: -- hovering about. It's once again, 12 tired of being asked about the OPP entering the Park. I 13 wasn't there all the time and one (1) lawyer already 14 pointed out that she knew of Vince going in there and 15 helicopters being in there. I wasn't around all the 16 time, so. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I take it 18 he's not agreeing -- 19 THE WITNESS: I still don't know what 20 you're saying. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it was a 22 sanctuary. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: He was certainly helped 24 by the interventions it sounds like. 25
851 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: All right. Mr. Simon, let me turn to 3 the events of the night of September the 6th. You, in 4 your examination by Mr. Millar, suggested that your 5 memory wasn't terribly accurate and everything happened 6 very quickly and you had difficulty recalling events of 7 September the 6th. 8 You remember that, last week, that you 9 realized that you were having some difficulty recalling? 10 A: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's 11 fuzzy from -- 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: -- over ten (10) years ago. 14 Q: Let me just ask you about a few 15 things. First of all, the lighting. And you've told us 16 that there was a spotlight, one (1) spotlight that you 17 recall. 18 A: I said there could have been more -- 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: -- than one. Two (2), three (3), who 21 knows? 22 Q: And you recall -- or you told us 23 about a fire near the fence? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I assume that would give some
861 light, would it, into the parking lot? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: There weren't -- there weren't any 4 other sources of light that you recall, were there? 5 A: There could have been. I thought I'd 6 mentioned that there could have been car lights. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: Could have been street lights, who 9 knows? 10 Q: Certainly when the bus and the car 11 travelled out of the Park, there -- there were -- with 12 their headlights on, if their headlights were on, that 13 was a source of light as they -- as they moved along 14 through the sandy parking lot and onto East Parkway? 15 A: Would be. 16 Q: And as they passed, of course, that 17 source of light would then disappear for the area that 18 they passed, wouldn't it? 19 A: I suppose so. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I didn't really notice any 22 difference. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: There could have been. 25 Q: -- there weren't any spotlights, were
871 there, illuminating the parking lot or down East Parkway 2 after the car and bus had proceeded out of the Park? 3 Those spotlights then weren't -- weren't illuminating 4 that area, were they? 5 A: I don't know. Like I said, I never 6 really noticed any lack of change in visibility, one (1) 7 way or the other. I... 8 Q: All right. Let me -- let me get your 9 position on East Parkway, because you testified about 10 your position, when you moved from the fence area, I 11 think, near -- north of the turnstile, -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- yes? Out into the sandy parking 14 lot towards East Parkway. And you said that you then 15 stood on the north side of East Parkway near the 16 intersection. And I'm -- we're putting up on the screen, 17 Photograph 220...? Two (2) hyphen twenty (20)? 18 If you could look at that photograph, Mr. 19 Simon, you'll see that there's a number of -- of signs. 20 There's a yield sign, there's another sign to the west of 21 the yield sign, it's a rectangular sign, and then further 22 west there's a speed limit sign of fifty (50) kilometres. 23 Do you see those three (3) signs? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: Yes. And I want to make it clear
881 where you were standing along that area, that is near 2 which sign, but first of all, as I understand your 3 evidence, whichever location you were standing at, you 4 moved to that location from the sandy parking lot and 5 stood at that location for the events that then occurred 6 before you moved back into the sandy parking lot towards 7 the Park; did you not? 8 That is, you didn't go further west than 9 the location in which you stood? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. And that location, I put 12 it to you, was the -- was at the yield sign...? 13 A: My recollection it would have been 14 closer to that square sign that's part white and part 15 brown. 16 Q: Let me see if I can help you with 17 that because you were interviewed by the SIU once, on 18 October 14, 1995, and I believe on two (2) occasions... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You said where -- you indicated where 23 you were standing. Let's -- if we could go to -- this is 24 for My Friend's assistance. This is Document 1002001. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in the
891 tab of materials, Mr. Millar, that I have? 2 THE WITNESS: It must be under a 3 different number if it -- or of mine, no... 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which 5 number...? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't have that number 7 either for... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at Tab 2 of Mr. 12 Simon's book. It's 1002493. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 14 It's the -- October the 5th. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the same 16 document. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then the 18 14th. Do you have it as well? 19 THE WITNESS: I believe so, I'm not too 20 sure. I had given a couple statements. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: So we have that. And if you could go 24 to page 16 at the bottom. 25 A: Yeah.
901 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Witness has the 2 right statement. 3 THE WITNESS: Pardon me? What did you 4 say again..? 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Page 16, please. 8 A: Page 16... 9 Q: At the very bottom, you're asked the 10 question: 11 "And where were you standing at this 12 time?" 13 Over at the top of page 17, your answer: 14 "I was standing in front of the yield 15 sign at the end of Army Camp Road." 16 See that? 17 A: Yeah, I see that. 18 Q: Now that was given -- that interview 19 I gather was given on October the 4, '95, which would 20 have been less than a month and a half after the event. 21 And I -- I gather, Mr. Simon, your recollection then 22 would be better than it is today of these events? 23 A: It would have been better but at the 24 same time, I was still under a lot of stress over events 25 that take -- took place. As you can see in the picture,
911 there isn't really too much of a difference. The two (2) 2 signs are a matter -- 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: -- of ten (10) feet apart. 5 Q: No. That -- that's fine. I'm not 6 quarrelling about the difference. I just want to make 7 sure we get you in the right spot because you did say 8 that it -- you thought it was -- in your evidence that 9 you were next to -- and I think you even said standing to 10 the west of the big sign. 11 At least you were standing at the big 12 sign. And that -- I want to make sure your evidence is 13 accurate because you have told the SIU that you were at 14 the yield sign. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: His evidence was that 16 he was east of the big sign. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Not west. 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Okay. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A substantial 21 difference. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would east 24 of the big sign be between the big sign and the Yield 25 sign?
921 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Also, he didn't say 4 in the SIU interview he was at the yield sign, it said, 5 In front of the yield sign. And what "in front" might 6 have meant might be open to argument as well. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 9 Q: Well, what did you mean by "In front 10 of the yield sign", do you know; it's your words? 11 A: If I recall what I was thinking at 12 the time, saying that statement, was that I had gone past 13 it, closer to the other -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 15 My Friend keeps quoting part of an evidence that is 16 incorrect with respect to Marlin Simon and Kevin Simon. 17 If we look at page 12 of that same interview -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 19 minute, Mr. -- Mr. Rosenthal, so I can be with you. Page 20 12 -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Or, sorry, it's a - 22 - at page 12 of the interview of October 15; he's very 23 explicit. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are we -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: October 15 is the
931 one at page -- at Tab 3. And if we look at page 12 of 2 that interview, towards the bottom, Kennedy, the SIU 3 investigator -- I'll wait another moment for everyone to 4 get there. Page 12 of Tab 3, Kennedy: 5 "Okay, Kevin, could you first off, with 6 a stick in your hand, draw an X in the 7 sand as to where you were standing when 8 you realized Dudley George had been 9 shot? Where were you? 10 Simon: I was right in front of that 11 sign over there. 12 Kennedy: Come on over here. Okay. 13 Simon has drawn an X in the sand right 14 at my foot, and this is directly in 15 front of a bulletin board on the 16 southwest corner of East Parkway Drive 17 and the driveway leading into the sand 18 parking lot of the Ipperwash -- 19 Ipperwash National Park." 20 I wish My Friend would put complete 21 evidence to a witness if he puts it, from his own 22 testimony or from Marlin Simon or anyone else. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it your 24 evidence now that you were standing somewhere between the 25 -- the big square sign and the yield sign? Is that your
941 evidence now? 2 THE WITNESS: What I -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 4 sure -- 5 THE WITNESS: -- what I have stated all 6 along was that I was closest to that bulletin board, but 7 I may have been a little closer to the Yield sign -- or 8 by the bulletin board. 9 The document that you're stating about was 10 taken in a room quite a few miles away from the incident. 11 The document that Mr. Rosenthal was referring to was 12 actually taken right down at the site. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps -- 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: All right. Well, that's fair, and 17 just so that we have that fully; you testified at the 18 Kenneth Deane trial as well? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yes. And at page 112 of that 21 testimony, on April 4, '97, you were asked the question, 22 beginning at line 15: 23 "Mr. Scott: It will be kind of small 24 from that distance but let's see if I 25 can do this. Just looking at Exhibit--"
951 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at Tab -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't understand 3 why My Friend would not give the witness the opportunity 4 to turn to the tab -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- tell him what 7 tab it's at and let him look at it before he starts 8 reading the evidence. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't 11 understand this kind of cross-examination, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 14 Rosenthal. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Tab 6 in -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 6. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- in the book that 18 Mr. Simon has. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Simon, 20 Tab 6. 21 THE WITNESS: 6? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's Inquiry 23 Document Number -- 24 THE WITNESS: Which page? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Page 112, Mr.
961 Simon. And it's 2000022 for My Friends. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, if 3 you're going to quote from the transcript, let's give him 4 a chance to look at it. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: No problem. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know that 7 you would want to do that, Mr. Roland. So where are you 8 reading from? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm -- I was starting at 10 Line 15, Mr. Scott is focussing on the sign. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you see 12 that there, Mr. Simon? In the middle of the page? 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: And then you'll see your answer: 17 "Yeah, it's this sign right here. This 18 is Army Camp Road. You're coming 19 straight up to the lake and it's going 20 to -- it's a caution sign and another 21 bulletin board with a map of Ipperwash 22 area." 23 So we see both -- both signs that are 24 shown in the photograph that's up on the screen at the 25 moment.
971 Question: 2 "Okay, so the sign you're referring to, 3 is it the caution sign or the bulletin 4 board kind of sign." 5 Answer: 6 "It'd be like this caution sign, off to 7 the side." 8 So you seem to indicate there that you're 9 at the side of the caution sign, off to the side of the 10 caution sign. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Read the rest of it, 12 Mr. -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL : Could you read the 15 next paragraph, Mr. Roland. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Read the rest of it, 17 Mr. Roland. 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: "Okay, so you were near 19 more or less closer to that bulletin 20 board? Okay, so when you were -- you 21 say you were near the sign. Which sign 22 are you referring to?" 23 "The bulletin -- I was closer right up 24 in there. I don't know how to describe 25 that".
981 Okay, fair enough. Sorry, I didn't see 2 that. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but if 4 you go on -- if you go on, Mr. Roland, on the next pag -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He responds 7 almost exactly the way he just has. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: He's pointing just to 9 the right of the bulletin board sign, okay. In between 10 the two (2) signs but closer to the bulletin board -- 11 closer to the bulletin board. Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 13 almost exactly what he said today. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Right, fine. Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: So you were -- we have you then 18 located between the two (2), closer to the bulletin 19 board. Thank you. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now as you stood at that location, as 24 you came out after the bus and the car had left the Park, 25 that you followed the bus and the car? They came out and
991 you followed them and stopped at that location? Do we 2 have it right? 3 A: Yes, I followed the bus until I 4 reached that location. 5 Q: Yeah. And you followed the car, I 6 take it, or the car -- the car came past you as you 7 followed the bus; is that right? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: All right. And both the bus and the 10 car proceeded further down -- west down East Parkway 11 Drive? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Right. And other occupiers were also 14 following the bus and the car, weren't they? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And they followed the bus and the car 17 further east -- sorry, further west along East Parkway 18 Drive? Past your location where you stood? 19 A: Not that I could see. 20 Q: You didn't see them passing your 21 location and following the bus and the car? 22 A: Most of the people I witnessed stayed 23 further back. I would have been probably further west 24 than anybody besides the car and the bus. 25 Q: Because we've heard --
1001 A: And Slippery that was being dragged. 2 Q: We've heard evidence from a number of 3 them, the one I remember is David George, for instance, 4 who said he went -- he went East Parkway Drive with the 5 bus and the car behind him. 6 A: Very well could have. 7 Q: And I take it there could have been 8 some others, too? I think we've heard other evidence 9 from other occupiers going down East Parkway further than 10 your location. 11 A: Could have. Like I said, the 12 majority of people I seen stayed back because the police 13 had split up and it would have been very difficult for 14 anybody to go any further. 15 Q: And why is that? 16 A: Because of the -- because of the 17 police, when they had split to allow the bus and the car 18 to go through. But it wouldn't be impossible but it 19 would be more difficult, in my point of view, anyway, 20 from where I was standing. And so I stopped where I did. 21 Q: I see, okay. And I gather throughout 22 this period of time you didn't -- you can't remember 23 seeing anybody -- any individual occupier and where they 24 were while you were standing there? 25 Whether they were either closer to the
1011 Park or further down East Parkway? You don't recall any, 2 in particular, individual occupier while the bus and the 3 car were past you, west of your location? 4 A: I'm not sure what you're getting at. 5 Q: Well, can you recall any individual 6 occupier at all, his location, as the bus and the car 7 passed you at that location? Or went beyond west of you 8 at that location. 9 Do you remember the location of any other 10 occupier in that area? Do you have any recollection of 11 that? 12 A: Just the ones that I could see in the 13 parking lot that were, I think where I pointed out -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- on the map already. 16 Q: While the car and the bus were still 17 west of you on East Parkway? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And who do you remember seeing there? 20 A: Most of the people that were there. 21 Q: Do you remember any individual? 22 A: I couldn't say exactly, but I know 23 there was some of the older people, I remember hearing 24 Buck, and hearing his voice coming from that area, others 25 -- not really.
1021 Q: It was pretty hard -- 2 A: It was hard to -- 3 Q: It was pretty hard to see because it 4 was pretty dark at that time, wasn't it? 5 A: Yeah. But we could see -- tell the 6 differences between the police and Natives. 7 Q: By the silhouette? 8 A: Basically, yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And what you don't recall, I gather, 13 is seeing Dudley George at all, at the time that you were 14 standing there, in any location, while the bus and the 15 car were still west on East Parkway? 16 A: No, I wasn't able to. 17 Q: Yes. You don't recall seeing him in 18 any location? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. And if the evidence is that, Mr. 21 Simon, that there are some -- there were some other 22 occupiers that actually were further west than your 23 location, during the time that the bus and the car were 24 west of your location, that's simply something that you 25 don't either recall observing or weren't able to observe?
1031 A: Then I probably wasn't able to. I 2 didn't notice anybody, like I said, everybody I had seen 3 was in that group that was further back. Like you said, 4 it's very well possible. You've described the lighting 5 yourself. I just -- 6 Q: I'm sorry? 7 A: You've described the lighting 8 yourself. 9 Q: Yes. It's surprising how dark it is, 10 for us persons from Toronto with ambient light, how dark 11 it is in your community. It's quite a different night 12 than we're used to. 13 Now, you've told us that you recognize 14 that the fire on the road, the location of the fire on 15 the road, which we saw in Exhibit P-99, was where you 16 understood at least some occupiers had -- believed that 17 Dudley George had been shot; right? That was -- that was 18 the reason you understood the fire had been built in that 19 location, by others? 20 A: That's what people were saying. 21 Q: Yes. I gather you didn't have a hand 22 in building the fire yourself? 23 A: No, I didn't. 24 Q: No. And I gather you didn't think 25 that Dudley George was shot in that location because you
1041 have no recollection of seeing him in that location? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: That's why you don't think he was 4 there because you have no recollection of seeing him in 5 that location? 6 A: I didn't see many of our people in 7 that -- that area. Except for, like I had said, the car 8 and the bus and Slippery being dragged. 9 Q: Okay. Let me turn to one (1) last 10 topic. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 12 My Friend goes to his last topic, the photograph that we 13 referred to, Photograph 2-20, it's from Mr. Stan 14 Thompson's collection but it does not -- it's not part of 15 the pictures that were marked earlier. 16 And I would ask that it be made part of 17 Exhibit 24, the photograph, P-24. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would it 19 have a number, 24 or something? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It would be P-24. I 21 don't have the index to -- it would be P-24, Photograph 22 2-20. 'Cause it's 2-20. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1051 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So we'll call it P-24 2 and it'll be within P-24, Photograph 2-20 and I've also 3 provided the Registrar with a -- electronic version that 4 we could put with P-24 as well. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roland's 8 now on his last topic. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: I am. I haven't heard a 10 cheer, but I have seen -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No -- 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- some relief. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No cheers. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: You have a cheer. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: The last topic I want to ask you 18 about is -- is Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone. You've told 19 us that you were aware of them being at the Army camp, I 20 think, after the occupation at the end of July '95. 21 When did you first become aware of them 22 there? 23 A: At the end of July? 24 Q: Yes. Did I have that wrong? 25 A: '95. Yeah.
1061 Q: When did you first become aware of 2 their presence? 3 A: I was -- I was talking about them 4 when their name came up, I was talking about them after 5 Dudley had been shot. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: And they'd come down to the Park. 8 Q: And I think we're going to hear 9 evidence that they were at the Army camp even before the 10 occupation of July '95 and that they were -- they were 11 there as -- as well, after the July 29, '95 occupation. 12 And I wonder, do you have any recollection 13 of seeing them, speaking with them, knowing what they 14 were doing? 15 A: They very well could have been there. 16 There's been several times where people from the Long 17 House have come down for -- bring children to the beach 18 area. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: I don't know if they would have been 21 personally involved in that sort of thing or not, but -- 22 Q: Let me just ask about your 23 recollection. Do you have any recollection of -- of 24 speaking with them during that period, let's say from 25 mid-July '95 to September 6th, '95?
1071 A: For that matter, I never even talked 2 to them after they came in there, after September 6th 3 either, so. 4 Q: So you're saying you didn't talk to 5 them either before or after September 6th? 6 A: Not personally, no. 7 Q: Okay. And were you present at any 8 meetings in which they were present? 9 A: I can't recall it. Like I said, I 10 seen them around after the 6th. I remember seeing them 11 for sure. But if they were there before, I -- they could 12 have. A lot of people came to support and I don't 13 remember them all. 14 Q: Thank you, Mr. Simon. Those are my 15 questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much, Mr. Roland. 18 Mr. Sulman, I think you're next. 19 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Good afternoon, Mr. 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simon. My name 25 is Trevor Hinnegan and I'm here on behalf of Marcel
1081 Beaubien who was the member of Provincial Parliament at 2 the -- at the relevant times. 3 I just have a very few questions for you 4 today. First, as I understand your -- your earlier 5 testimony, your great-great grandfather, Mandoka, is that 6 correct? 7 A: Mandoka, yes. 8 Q: Mandoka? He lived in the lands that 9 now form the Provincial Park, is that correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Okay, and you've given your age, 12 which is believe is twenty-seven (27), is that -- 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And the age of your mother. That 15 would have put your great-great grandfather there prior 16 to the turn of the 20th century? 17 A: I'm not too sure of that. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: It was before my time. 20 Q: But he lived -- in any event, he 21 lived there prior to the Stony Point Band Council 22 surrendering the thirty-two (32) acres to the federal 23 government? Is that correct? Would he have been living 24 there before that time? 25
1091 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I don't know. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, yes, Mr. 5 Orkin...? 6 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Very gently, Mr. 7 Commissioner. I think we had two (2) questions in the 8 last question and I could elaborate but there's a 9 question of the date and then the question of the Stony 10 Pointers surrendering the land. And ... 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't get 12 it as two (2). Do you want to try to phrase it so it's 13 one (1) question that can be answered? 14 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Well, I don't 15 believe he knows the answer to the question anyways -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: -- so it's of no 18 consequence. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: 21 Q: Now -- 22 A: The part about the surrendering is. 23 As far as I was aware we never did surrender any lands. 24 Q: That's fine. That wasn't the 25 substance of -- of my question anyhow, but I'll move on.
1101 Over the years your mother and your grandmother, Melva 2 George, did -- did they communicate to you about their 3 frustrations with respect to the failure of the Federal 4 Government to return the lands? The -- Army Camp lands, 5 that is? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you -- you became aware of 8 certain peaceful protests that they took part in, 9 including picketing and -- and the march to Ottawa and 10 those sorts of things? You were aware of that? 11 A: Yes, I was. 12 Q: And with respect to the formation of 13 the Warrior Society, I understand that you weren't at the 14 founding meeting, but was it your understanding that your 15 mother was -- was one (1) of the driving forces behind 16 the creation of that society? 17 A: She was an advisor, yes, as were a 18 lot of other people. 19 Q: And she -- she would assist in 20 organizing and leading the sessions that were attended by 21 the Warrior Society members. Is that correct? 22 A: It's possible, yes. She was an 23 advisor of all sorts. 24 Q: And did at any time, she -- your 25 mother -- encourage you, your brother, Marlin, Dudley
1111 George and some of the other young men who occupied the 2 Army Base lands to be more aggressive than her generation 3 had been and her mother's generation had been in fighting 4 to get the land back from the Federal Government? 5 A: No, she didn't. She was actually the 6 opposite of that. 7 Q: She didn't encourage you to be more 8 aggressive in trying to get the land back? 9 A: She -- well, your term of aggressive 10 needs to be straightened out first. What -- are you 11 referring to aggressive, she had partaken and made us 12 partake into a lot of letter writing campaigns and stuff 13 of that nature. That'd be considered aggressive, but as 14 far as like, physical violence? No. 15 Q: No, and I'm not suggesting physical 16 aggression, I'm just suggesting more active steps and -- 17 and more of a -- a concerted effort. 18 A: Well then, yes. 19 Q: And she -- did -- did your mother 20 encourage and support you and your other companions in 21 the takeover of the barracks? 22 A: Not too sure how to answer that. I'm 23 not too sure if she was there or not. 24 Q: Was she supportive of that -- that 25 move, though?
1121 A: Well, in a way, she said the same as 2 I -- I've said today, that it's our land, so obviously I 3 would take it that she was. 4 Q: And similar question with -- with 5 respect to the Provincial Park. Was she -- did she 6 encourage that takeover as well and was she supportive of 7 it? 8 A: I remember not being so supportive, 9 but she, on the same time said -- stated it was our 10 great-grandfather's land, that it was our land, that it - 11 - it had to be done. She just wished it was done more 12 organized I guess. I don't know. Should have asked her. 13 Q: Would it be an accurate 14 characterization if I were to state that in 1995, you and 15 the other young -- young men of Stoney Point -- you 16 provided the physical means and muscle, if you will, to 17 directly take back the lands that had not been returned 18 to your mother's generation or your -- your 19 grandmother's generation? 20 A: I don't know what you're getting at 21 there. If you'd met my grandpa, you'd know I sure ain't 22 as much muscle as he was. 23 Q: And I think -- 24 A: I don't know what you're getting at. 25 Q: -- when I say, "muscle" what I mean
1131 is -- is the direct physical presence to take over the 2 lands. You -- you provided that -- the source to be able 3 to do that as opposed to, perhaps, her generation or her 4 -- her mother's generation. You provided the -- the 5 actual means to do that -- to actually -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not -- 7 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: -- occupy the lands 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Not -- 9 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: -- define my -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 11 Millar? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We've heard evidence 13 of wide variety of people entered the Park in May of 19 - 14 - not the Park, but in the -- in the -- the rifle ranges 15 in May of 1993, of all ages, so. 16 And then we've heard evidence that a 17 variety of people entered the Park and if my -- my -- I 18 would suggest that my friend needs to be more specific 19 about what he's getting at because I, for one, don't 20 understand and I don't think the witness understands what 21 the question is, because we've heard a wide variety of 22 people were there. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 24 to try to rephrase that a bit, it's a difficult question. 25 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: Sure.
1141 CONTINUED BY MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: 2 Q: I guess what I'm saying is that you 3 provided -- you could actually take up residence there 4 and make a long-term commitment to actually physically 5 stay there permanently, rather than -- as opposed to the 6 people that came and visited now and agin? 7 A: It's something I was willing to do, 8 yes. 9 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. I think that the only remaining person, maybe 12 Mr. Ash, do you have any questions? 13 MR. ROBERT ASH: I'll just be very, very 14 brief, sir. If the Board could remove that photograph, 15 please? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 17 the -- on behalf of the Coroner? 18 MR. ROBERT ASH: Yes, sir. Yes, just the 19 video. I'm sorry, is there an exhibit number on that, 20 Mr. Millar? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-68, sir. 22 MR. ROBERT ASH: P-68, for the assistance 23 of my friends. 24 Before Mr. Millar shows you the -- the 25 video, I just want to tell you, I won't be asking any
1151 questions about transcripts, so you will be relieved to 2 know that, okay. And I'm new to these Proceedings, so 3 I'm going to be asking for your assistance as we -- as we 4 go through just a couple of questions that I have for 5 you. 6 7 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBERT ASH: 10 Q: Okay. Do you see this particular 11 picture here, it's the St. John's Ambulance vehicle? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you remember seeing this vehicle? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And this was what, a couple of days 16 after the incident involving Dudley George? 17 A: I believe it was the next day. 18 Q: The next day. And who were you with 19 when you saw this particular vehicle? 20 A: I'm not too sure. There was a number 21 of people. 22 Q: The St. John's Ambulance people were 23 not there when you saw the vehicle though, were they? 24 A: No. 25 Q: There was no one there to explain to
1161 you why the vehicle was present at the scene; is that 2 correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Now, when you went to see the 5 vehicle, you saw it with a number of other people. Do 6 you remember any of their names or who they were? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: If I said name I could be mistaken on 10 it. 11 Q: In your Examination-in-Chief, and I'm 12 going from notes, not from transcripts here, but I gather 13 in your Examination-in-Chief to Mr. Millar you indicated 14 that you went to look inside this particular trailer; is 15 that right? 16 A: Yes, when I got there, noticed the 17 door was open, so we had gone in, and -- 18 Q: Okay. So it was unlocked, was it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when you -- did you actually go 21 right inside? 22 A: I believe so. 23 Q: Okay. And what did you see when you 24 went right inside? 25 A: I seen a number of computers and
1171 equipment of the like, I'm not really sure what they 2 were. 3 Q: Did you make any effort to find out 4 just what this equipment was being used for? 5 A: I wouldn't know how. I'm not really 6 a computer -- 7 Q: I gather there was nobody there you 8 could talk to; am I right? 9 A: Yeah. Most people that I was with, 10 they wouldn't have a clue what -- what to do with a 11 computer if -- 12 Q: Okay. Well let me ask you this: 13 There was another vehicle there -- would you keep running 14 the tape forward, please. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING) 17 18 A: You can see some of the equipment 19 right in the door there when you close -- 20 Q: Yes. Right. And I gather, it was 21 communications equipment, the concern, as I understand it 22 was, that you didn't see anything for first aid; is that 23 correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And so you -- the feeling was, or the
1181 thought was, maybe this vehicle was being improperly 2 used. Am I right about that? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And is that why the vehicle was 5 damaged later? 6 A: I wouldn't know. 7 Q: It was damaged later, wasn't it? 8 A: That's what I read in the paper. 9 Q: That's what you read in the paper; no 10 reason to believe otherwise, is there? 11 A: Well, I'd -- 12 Q: Now this is a second vehicle. When 13 you saw it, as I understand the notes that were given to 14 me, this vehicle was locked, it was closed up; am I 15 right? 16 A: From what I remember, yes. 17 Q: Okay. So you weren't able to get 18 inside it; is that right? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: But once again, the word St. John's 21 Ambulance appeared on the vehicle; is that correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Whether it had hospital equipment 24 inside it, first aid kits, that sort of stuff, you had no 25 knowledge of that?
1191 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. So can you assist me on this: 3 Which vehicle was damaged of the two (2) that I have 4 shown you; which one (1) was damaged? 5 A: I wouldn't know. I was going to say 6 I thought it was this one (1), but after thinking for a 7 second, it was the OPP van that I had seen. 8 Q: The OPP van? 9 A: Yeah. It wasn't at that site though. 10 Q: Well, I've shown you two (2) 11 photographs; right? I've shown you one (1) which is a 12 van of some sort with communications equipment in it, 13 right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And now we're looking at a second 16 van, a smaller one. Which of the two (2) was damaged, to 17 your knowledge? 18 A: To my knowledge was neither. 19 Q: Was neither? 20 A: But, like I said, I read about it in 21 the paper that there was vehicles damaged, so. 22 Q: Were you not around, in or around, 23 the time that things were happening within a day or two 24 (2) of Dudley's death? 25 A: What do you mean?
1201 Q: Well, were you on -- on the -- on the 2 site within a day or two (2) of Dudley dying? 3 A: I stayed within the Camp for a number 4 of weeks after. 5 Q: Okay. So if there was damage done to 6 either of the vehicles, would you not have known about 7 it? 8 A: Not necessarily. They're a number of 9 miles down the road from the Base. 10 Q: There were conversations later as to 11 how these vehicles were being used, were there not? 12 A: Yeah. There's a lot of people that 13 mentioned about the -- what we had seen. I told people 14 too about what I seen in that one (1) trailer. 15 Q: Okay. Was there a concern about 16 that? 17 A: Yes, there was concern. There was 18 also other newspaper articles that talked about a number 19 of body bags being found at the site and stuff. There 20 was concern about -- they were saying that we shouldn't 21 have taken Dudley to the hospital in the manner that he 22 was. They were saying that there was ambulances ready 23 for the use, so -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- when I -- I would --
1211 Q: Let me ask you -- 2 A: -- say that what I seen was that 3 those ambulances were not there for first-aid treatment. 4 Q: Which ambulances are you referring 5 to? Where were they located, the ones that you saw? 6 A: I'm referring to the two (2) that 7 you're showing, they were at the -- that parkway down 8 East Parkway Drive. 9 Q: Okay. Now they're in -- roughly in 10 the vicinity of the sandy parking lot, are they? 11 A: They're a few kilometres down the 12 road. 13 Q: A few kilometres down the road? 14 A: They're halfway between Ravenswood 15 Road and Army Camp Road. 16 Q: Okay. Were you aware of any other 17 ambulances in the vicinity of the Ipperwash Army Base? 18 Did you know where they were? 19 A: No, I didn't. 20 Q: Did you make any attempts, or anybody 21 with you make any attempts, to ascertain where ambulances 22 were that evening? 23 A: That's why we were on those phones in 24 the Park, but the phones kept going down on us. 25 Q: Okay. Were you aware that there were
1221 in fact ambulances on standby in a variety of towns, and 2 that in fact there were ambulances outside the Park 3 perimeter; did you know that? 4 A: I never seen any. 5 Q: Okay. But were you aware that there 6 were some? 7 A: No, I wasn't. 8 Q: Okay. And the damage, I gather, to 9 either of the St. John's Ambulance vehicles was done why; 10 can you assist me on that? 11 A: I'd have no idea. I never damaged 12 them. 13 Q: I'm not suggesting that you did. But 14 you had conversations with people; is that right? 15 A: None about who damaged or why. 16 Q: There was two (2) buildings that were 17 burned, were there not? 18 A: I believe so, inside the Park. 19 Q: Yes. This is right after this -- all 20 of this happened; is that right? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And people were very upset; is that 23 correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Okay. So there were a number of
1231 conversations that went on as to what would -- had 2 happened after Dudley had passed away; am I right? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. So were you able to hear or 5 understand why the ambulance vehicles were damaged? Do 6 you have any knowledge about it? 7 A: After what you're saying, I imagine 8 that could have been because of the anger, but I don't 9 know. Like I said, I wasn't -- never heard of people 10 talking about that ambulances and -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- beating them up or anything like 13 that. 14 Q: Did you hear any conversation to this 15 effect, that ambulances in fact were OPP vehicles 16 disguised as ambulances; did you hear anything like that? 17 A: That's what my understanding of the 18 trailer being, with all the computers and stuff, was that 19 they're -- the OPP were using them for whatever purposes, 20 and they had no intention of helping. 21 Q: So that was a view with -- inside the 22 -- by the occupiers inside the Base, that these vehicles 23 were being improperly used; is that correct? 24 A: Improperly? 25 Q: Yes.
1241 A: Is that what you said? Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Is -- 3 A: By myself anyway and -- 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: By myself anyway. 6 Q: By yourself? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Now, who did you talk to about that? 9 A: I can't recall. 10 Q: It goes back too long for you to 11 remember? 12 A: On the specifics of that, yes. 13 Q: Okay. All right. Thank you very 14 much, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. Ash. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I have a brief re- 18 examination. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 20 Rosenthal, you've got the right to re-examine even though 21 you've already examined. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'd like to try to 23 finish it before lunch, so that I can have a relaxed 24 discussion of his evidence with him over lunch. 25
1251 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Now first, I should like to correct 3 the record. Mr. Roland put it to Mr. Simon that his 4 brother Marlin had testified that it was his bicycle 5 tires that had been slashed; that didn't get corrected in 6 the course of his examination, but it is incorrect. 7 Marlin testified that it was the tires on 8 his four-wheeler, just as Mr. Simon testified, and if one 9 looks at the transcript of September 28, at Page 153, Mr. 10 Marlin Simon was asked: 11 "Did I have any -- 12 Q: Hostile -- 13 "What you would consider to be hostile 14 or unfriendly interactions?' 15 "Let's see, not really. Let's see. In 16 June, July -- yeah, I guess it would be 17 in June of '95, the -- I don't know. I 18 guess it was some military guys or 19 military policemen were drinking and 20 they end up taking off from the base up 21 there and they come down and flattened 22 my tires on my four wheeler". 23 Not his bicycle as put by Mr. Roland. 24 Now, you told Mr. Roland, sir, that you went to Oka. 25 A: Yes, sir.
1261 Q: Why did you go there? 2 A: Just to -- curiosity, I guess. To 3 show support. We read a lot of stuff in the paper, had 4 been following it fairly closely during the summer, that 5 business going during that summer so did a lot of reading 6 in the paper. 7 Q: And why did you want to support them 8 in Oka? 9 A: Just to show support and help. We 10 took out food and clothing so it was obviously a help 11 feed and keep them warm. I -- my understanding was that 12 none of that stuff made it there. We were stopped well 13 short of getting it anywheres near where -- 14 Q: I'm sorry, sir? 15 A: We were stopped well short of getting 16 to where any of the Mohawks were. I think it was the 17 actual town of Oka. I'm not too sure, it was all French 18 to me. 19 Q: Thank you. And finally, sir, you 20 were asked several questions about these vehicles that 21 were marked as St. John's Ambulance. Did you see either 22 of those vehicles in any other location other than the 23 one that was just shown on the video? 24 A: In the parking lot? That's the only 25 place I've seen those two, that I remember.
1271 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 2 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Those are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Rosenthal. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just have -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 7 Millar? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- a couple of 9 questions in re-examination. 10 11 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Mr. Simon, you told Ms. McAleer that 13 the Ontario Provincial Police told people to leave the 14 beach because your group had entered the Park, and my 15 question is: 16 How do you know that that's what the 17 Ontario Provincial Police told to the people on the 18 beach? 19 A: I couldn't hear what they were 20 saying. I just seen them approach the people that were 21 on the beach and fingers being pointed and people 22 abruptly went in the direction that the police officers 23 were pointing 24 Q: The police officers were pointing the 25 people to leave -- and they -- in the direction of
1281 leaving the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And My Friend, Mr. Roland, 4 asked you some questions about the protest in 1990 which 5 is referred to in Exhibit P-108. And as I understand it, 6 in 1990 you were fourteen (14) years old. Is that 7 correct? 8 A: Somewheres around there, yes, 9 thirteen (13), fourteen (14). 10 Q: Thank you. And lastly My Friend, Mr. 11 Hinnegan was asking you about people entering the rifle 12 ranges as well as the Park. 13 One of the people who entered the rifle 14 ranges in May 1993 was Mr. Clifford George, was he not? 15 And -- 16 A: Are you saying about Clifford moving 17 in on the ranges there? Yes. 18 Q: Yes. And Mr. George was, I think, 19 seventy-two (72) in May of 1993? 20 A: Somewheres around there. I'm not too 21 sure. 22 Q: And Mr. George stayed in the Army 23 camp on the rifle ranges throughout the winter of 24 '93/'94? 25 A: Not exactly the rifle ranges, but
1291 along the front there, yes. 2 Q: But -- and where he created this 3 hut -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- further to the west? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And stayed there and -- stayed there 8 until the occupation of the Army camp, the built up area, 9 is that correct? 10 A: Yeah, Somewheres around there. 11 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions, 12 Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. I think that's it for you, Mr. Simon. You're 15 completed your -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- evidence. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Simon, thank you 19 very much for coming and thank you very much for 20 attending on all of the days. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would like 22 to thank you as well. Thank you for coming and giving us 23 your evidence. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25
1301 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we'll be starting 4 this afternoon with Mr. Cecil Bernard George, after the 5 lunch break, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 7 an hour and fifteen (15) minutes. Take it to 2:25? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 11 Inquiry stands adjourned until 2:25. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 1:10 p.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 2:26 p.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 17 resumed, please be seated. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 19 Commissioner, our next witness is Mr. Cecil Bernard 20 George, and Mr. George is at the witness table. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hello, Mr. 22 George? 23 THE WITNESS: Good evening, sir. 24 25 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Sworn:
1311 2 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Mr. George, just before we begin, you 4 need to make sure you speak into the mike that's in front 5 of you, sir. 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Mr. George, I understand you were 8 born on March the 10th, 1954? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And your parents were -- are Cecil 11 and Eileen George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you're married and have four (4) 14 children? 15 A: Common-law, yes, married. 16 Q: And you have four (4) children? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And I understand that you have eleven 19 (11) siblings? Brothers and sisters, and they were -- 20 your siblings are -- the oldest is Judy Boon (phonetic)? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: You're number two (2)? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Then your sister Norma was number 25 three (3), and she's passed away?
1321 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then number -- your fourth 3 sibling was Mr. Stanley George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Mr. Tom George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Mr. -- Ms. Jessie George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Mary Workman, who's also known as 10 Mary Johnson or Gina Johnson? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Then Patrick Johnson? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Stacey George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Selina George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Delbert George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the -- your youngest brother is 21 Jeremiah George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you're a carpenter by trade? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And have been since at least 1995?
1331 A: Before that. 2 Q: Before that? And you knew -- you've 3 known Dudley George for basically all your life, as I 4 understand it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you grew up in Kettle Point? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And as I understand it, you had a 9 good relationship with Mr. Dudley George? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: Now your maternal grandmother was 12 Bessie Bressette, is that correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And your grandmother resided at Stony 15 Point before the war? 16 A: She was there, yes, living -- oh 17 around 1942. 18 Q: She was there in 1942? 19 A: I believe she moved to Kettle Point 20 around -- before that time. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: I'm not exactly sure what -- what 23 year she moved from there. 24 Q: But she had been -- she had lived in 25 Stony Point before the appropriation in 1942?
1341 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And her sister is -- and your -- your 3 great aunt is Rachel Shockenz (phonetic)? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And your -- Rachel Shockenz as well 6 lived at Stony Point? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And do you know when your aunt Rachel 9 Shockenz left Stony Point? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: And you were, as I understand it, 12 elected to the Band Council for the Kettle and Stony 13 Point First Nation in 1992? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you served as a Councillor until 16 your resignation in 1996? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And can you tell us why you resigned 19 from the Band Council, Mr. George? 20 A: From what occurred after down at 21 Ipperwash Park. Within a year after that I -- I had 22 family problems at home. So I had to resign and take 23 care of my family. 24 Q: And the problems, the family problems 25 that you had were related to the events at Ipperwash
1351 Provincial Park? 2 A: Directly. 3 Q: And the -- you are -- have a 4 nickname, as I understand it. It's Slippery, is that 5 correct? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner 8 what you had learned about the land appropriation of 1942 9 and from whom did you learn about the appropriation by 10 the Federal Government in 1942? 11 A: From the Federal Government? 12 Q: Yeah. Who did you learn about the 13 appropriation from? 14 A: From -- both from experience sitting 15 with the Kettle and Stony Point Council and from where 16 some of our Elders resided at Kettle Point. 17 Q: And did -- were you -- did those 18 Elders include your grandmother, Bessie Bressette? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And your great-aunt, Rachel Shockenz? 21 A: These were the two (2) main. 22 Q: And what can you tell me about what 23 they said to you about the appropriation? 24 A: Well, there was always mention of how 25 they were the ones that were living there at the time
1361 were moved and -- and how they were moved. They didn't 2 agree to it but yet they were subject to that removal 3 from the lands down there. The ones that she understood 4 and who she knew and... 5 Q: And when you say "she", Mr. George, 6 you're referring to your grandmother or your great-aunt? 7 A: Both of them. 8 Q: Both of them. 9 A: And also I learned, you know, when I 10 became part of the Council for that First Nation, I 11 started understanding a little more by listening and 12 trying to understand what had happened before that. 13 Q: And before I go on, I need -- I want 14 to ask you some questions about your relationship with 15 the -- with the police and with the law. 16 I understand that in -- on June 16th, 1970 17 you were convicted of a break, enter, and theft and 18 sentenced to six (6) months? 19 A: Yes, sir, I was. 20 Q: And on the same day, you were 21 convicted of break and enter with intent and sentenced 22 again to six (6) months concurrent? 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: And on the same day, mischief, and 25 again six (6) months concurrent?
1371 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And then on June 12th -- June 9th, 3 actually, 2001, you were paroled -- I mean June 9th -- 4 June -- September 1st, excuse me, 1970, you were paroled 5 and on December 1st, 1970 you were convicted of common 6 assault and fined fifty dollars ($50)? 7 A: Yes, sir, I was. 8 Q: And you were convicted of escaping 9 custody and, again, fined fifty dollars ($50)? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you were found to have violated 12 your parole but were re-paroled on the same day? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And then on October 1st, 1971 you 15 were convicted of possession of stolen property under 16 fifty dollars ($50); is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you were sentenced to three (3) 19 months -- three (3) months on that charge? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And on the same day you were charged 22 with possession of stolen property under -- over fifty 23 dollars ($50)? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And sentenced to three (3) months
1381 concurrent on that charge as well? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then on August the 9th, 1972, you 4 were convicted of robbery with violence and sentenced to 5 eighteen (18) months? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: And then in -- on March the 22nd, 8 1974 you were convicted of driving with more than eighty 9 (80) milligrams of alcohol in your blood and fined one 10 hundred dollars ($100) or in default twenty (20) days? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And on the same date you were 13 convicted of failing to attend court and fined fifty 14 dollars ($50), or in default, ten (10) days? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Then in 1975 -- July the 3rd, 1975, 17 you were convicted of theft under two hundred dollars 18 ($200) and fined -- sentenced to sixty (60) days? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in March -- on March 23rd, 1976 21 you were convicted of possession of stolen property and 22 fined seventy-five (75) days -- seventy-five dollars 23 ($75) or in default fourteen (14) days? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And in 1976 -- August 24th, 1976 --
1391 you were convicted of possession of narcotics and fined 2 two hundred dollars ($200) or, in default, two (2) 3 months? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And on July 18th, 1977 you were 6 convicted of failure to appear on what you were convicted 7 and sentenced to fourteen (14) days? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And on the same day possession of 10 stolen property and sentenced to fourteen (14) days? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And on the same day, escaping lawful 13 custody and again sentenced to fourteen (14) days, but 14 this time consecutively? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And in -- on April 10th, 1978 you 17 were convicted of driving while disqualified and fined 18 two hundred dollars ($200) or, in default, fourteen (14) 19 days? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And December 13th, 1978 you were 22 convicted of possession of stolen property and sentenced 23 to three (3) months? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And August -- March the 4th, 1980 you
1401 were convicted of public mischief and -- and sentenced to 2 three (3) months? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And on the -- that was in Forest. On 5 March the 5th, 1980 you were convicted of willful damage 6 and sentenced to thirty (30) days? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And from 1980 to 1995 to the events 9 of question, you had no further convictions and no 10 further problems with the law? 11 A: No, sir, I thought about what I did 12 and my past and I kind of thought it was time to make a 13 turn. 14 Q: And you made that turn and until the 15 events that we're here to look at, you were not -- had 16 not been convicted of any other offences? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: Now, prior to the occupation of the 19 rifle ranges in May of 1993 at the Army Comp -- Camp -- 20 had you gone to the -- been to the Army Camp? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And had you hunted on the Army Camp? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And when did you first go onto the 25 Army Camp to hunt?
1411 A: Probably in -- in the late eighties. 2 Q: In the late eighties? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you -- prior to that, had you 5 been on the Army Camp? Had you gone to the Army Camp? 6 A: Prior? 7 Q: Prior to the -- 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And what did you -- when did you 10 first go to the Army Camp, Mr. George? 11 A: I believe it was in -- I'm not exact 12 on the year, but it was the late 70s I went there and I 13 stayed right -- right there on the lands for about a week 14 to look back at my life and where I was and where I was 15 going to go with it. Because of drugs and alcohol were - 16 - were affecting my life. 17 So I went there and stayed right in the 18 hills there at the land in question. And I was told I 19 would be arrested and put in jail for trespassing and I 20 tried to explain to -- to the ones that were in charge. 21 They were asking me questions why I was there and I told 22 them I was there to pray for the lands for the people and 23 that I was basically there to talk to our Creator and 24 they left me alone. 25 They didn't -- they didn't bother me after
1421 that. They let me tent on top of the biggest hill back 2 there where I could -- they could see me and I could see 3 them. 4 Q: And was that in the northern part of 5 the Army Camp towards the -- 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: -- towards the lake? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And among the large -- the large 10 dunes that one can see close to the light? 11 A: Right on -- right beside these lakes 12 back in there. 13 Q: Right beside the Inland Lakes? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it was at that time that you did 16 as you put it, turned your life around then and since 17 then had not gotten into any trouble with the law? 18 A: It was shortly after that. I guess 19 it took time for me to understand where I was going with 20 my life. 21 Q: And the -- prior to May of nineteen 22 (19) -- May of 1993, did you go onto the Army Camp or 23 participate in any demonstrations with respect to the 24 Army Camp? 25 A: Yes, I did.
1431 Q: And when did you participate in the 2 demonstrations, Mr. George? 3 A: Some of the demonstrations were just 4 along the fence and there were talks and I just shortly 5 went there. Not spend a lot of time, just more out of 6 curiosity to what was going on. I didn't really stay 7 around and didn't fully understand who was being taken 8 place at the time, it was curiosity because of what I was 9 told growing up. 10 Q: And what have you been told growing 11 up, Mr. George? 12 A: About the land down there and how it 13 was taken and that the people I knew and wanted to return 14 back to the lands where they were born and where they 15 were raised and where their grandparents, generations 16 lived. 17 Q: And the demonstration along the 18 fence, was that along Highway 21 or on Army Camp Road? 19 A: That was -- yes, shortly after there 20 was -- there was a meeting that was right within the -- 21 the area down there. And the government were involved in 22 there and our people were involved in there and it was 23 basically a message to the government that it was time to 24 return the land back to the people. That they wanted to 25 go -- go home and where they felt -- where they wanted to
1441 be. 2 Q: And the demonstration that you refer 3 to as being right on the land, where was -- was that in 4 the built-up area of the Army Camp? 5 A: Yes. It was kind of out in the field 6 there. They had a speaker system set up where each 7 individual talked about what they felt and there was some 8 government people talking there. And there was the 9 military there where -- I can't exactly remember what was 10 said at all -- at these talks. 11 But that was the first one that I became 12 involved in actually spending time on the land down 13 there. Because of what I was hearing and trying to 14 understand about what would be taking place with our 15 people. 16 Q: And can you tell us when this event 17 took place, Mr. George? 18 A: It was -- I can't remember exactly 19 what month it was. 20 Q: Can you tell us what year, 21 approximately? 22 A: It was shortly before I -- I believe 23 Town Council. 24 Q: So that would be in the early 90's? 25 A: Yeah, it was around in that time,
1451 early 90's, '90. 2 Q: And whereabouts -- do you recall 3 where this -- this meeting, did it last more than one (1) 4 day or just -- 5 A: Yes, sir, it did. We were in there 6 for quite a few days. It was -- we just -- a message to 7 the government and that they should stop and listen to 8 what we had to say about the lands in question. 9 Q: And can you point out on -- on the 10 screen beside you, Mr. George, is a copy of Exhibit P-41 11 which is the built-up area of the Army Camp. 12 And is the area where you camped shown on 13 Exhibit P-41 of this meeting? 14 A: Do I use one (1) of the -- one (1) of 15 these? 16 Q: Yes, if you could use -- there's a 17 red laser pen that if you -- yes. 18 A: It was approximately right in this 19 area here. 20 Q: So you're pointing out, for the 21 purposes of the record, the area that is in front of 22 Building 46 and I believe, adjacent to Building 40. 23 Building 46 is the Roman Catholic chapel, it was, and 24 Building 40 was one (1) of the officer quarters. 25 And how long -- how many people from the
1461 First Nation had participated in the -- at the meeting 2 and then the -- any demonstration on -- 3 A: There was quite a few people that 4 participated in the talks down there. And when the talks 5 were all over, I -- I had a conversation with the 6 spiritual advisor. He -- that's what he referred to 7 himself as. 8 And we talked about the land down there 9 and -- and part of the past, what our people went through 10 and he had -- he mentioned to me that if we walk off the 11 land here today, he says we might walk off forever. 12 So I got to thinking inside that, I didn't 13 want to see this happening because of determination that 14 some of our people were going through to try to make the 15 -- the government understand that, you know, our people 16 wanted to go back to these lands. 17 So I -- I had no conversation with any 18 Council member, the Chief or anyone. I just took it on 19 myself to go home and get myself a tent and come back and 20 let the government know that we're going to be here and 21 we're not going to go anywhere, that they need to deal 22 with us. 23 Q: So that the -- as I understand it, 24 the meeting with the -- the government representatives 25 and DND took place first and then you and some others
1471 then stayed on and camped on -- 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: -- the Army Camp? And as I 4 understand it, you stayed about a week? 5 A: It was within that area, yes. 6 Q: And as well, did you attend a meeting 7 in the 90's called Res '90, I think it was called? 8 A: Yes, sir, I did. 9 Q: And that was in 1990? 10 A: Yes, it was. 11 Q: And that took place at the Army Camp? 12 A: Yes, we -- I, myself and a few 13 others, we had sat around talking about the issues that 14 were -- our people were dealing with at the time. 15 So I guess I was kind of elected out of 16 our little group of people that were talking, to go up 17 and ask if some of the Band members and whoever was else 18 that was taking part in this Res '90 up at the Band 19 community centre to more or less looking for some support 20 to what was going down and to the east of us in Kanestake 21 and Kahnewake and that area. 22 It was when the Oka issue was happening 23 down there. So it was, you know, more or less because 24 the military was involved in -- in some of the actions 25 that took place in -- at the Oka issue. We were sending
1481 them a message that we, too, are Natives and you -- you 2 too are sitting on some land that rightfully belonged to 3 -- to our ancestors and to our people that are still here 4 today. 5 Q: And the demonstration that you 6 participated in, in the summer of -- was it the 7 summertime of 1990 or -- 8 A: Yes, it was. 9 Q: And did you go on to the Army Camp 10 with other -- 11 A: Yes, I took on myself as a 12 responsibility and there was a lot of other people that 13 came and we -- knew when -- called and -- and let the 14 Military know that we were coming down there. We just 15 went down there and I guess I was kind of the 16 spokesperson at the time. 17 I told them -- the Military and the ones 18 that were at the front gate -- that being that we're 19 coming in not to cause them any problems, but just to -- 20 to be there for a short while as a short demonstration. 21 And -- and we're going to talk and maybe 22 sing a couple of songs and let them know that, you know, 23 this -- this land here, you should think about where you 24 are and the issues surrounding this land. 25 So we -- we did just that. We sang songs
1491 and people talked from what they felt inside of them and 2 I thanked them for their time and we left. 3 Q: And how long did -- how long were you 4 on the Army Camp when -- on this occasion, Mr. George? 5 A: Not very long, probably about an 6 hour. 7 Q: And where did that demonstration take 8 place? 9 A: It took place right inside of the 10 front entrance to -- to the Base. 11 Q: Just inside the main gate? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And I understand as well that you 14 attended the burial of Dan Joyce -- Dan George -- at the 15 Army Camp in the fall of 1990? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And you -- but you were not involved 18 with the arrangements? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: And did you visit the Army Camp or 21 the Park with any of your relatives? 22 A: Visit the Park? 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: Did you say the Park? 25 Q: Yes.
1501 A: No. 2 Q: Did you, at one (1) point pick 3 medicines with your great-aunt, Rachel? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: I did. 7 Q: -- and that was on the Army Camp? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: On the Army Camp itself? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when did you do that, sir? 12 A: That was various times and I believe 13 the Military was still in there and they were starting to 14 let -- let us come into the area there and we told them 15 we were just going back there to pick some medicine and 16 we told them where we would be and we went there for that 17 purpose and we left when the purpose was done. 18 Q: And whereabouts -- did you go into -- 19 whereabouts in the Army Camp did you go to pick the 20 medicines, Mr. George? I've got a -- I can make this a 21 little smaller. 22 A: It was back in -- right in that area 23 there. 24 Q: Back in the area just -- you're 25 pointing to an area just west of -- east, excuse me -- of
1511 the Provincial Park south of Matheson Drive? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And how many times did you go into 4 the -- the Army Camp in that area with your -- your 5 great-aunt Rachel Shockenz? 6 A: I think I may -- may have come in 7 here probably twice. 8 Q: And was that when you were older or 9 younger? 10 A: I'd be younger. 11 Q: Younger? And did your -- did you 12 learn anything about the Provincial Park from the elders 13 and in particular from your grandmother, Bessie Bressette 14 or your great-aunt, Rachel Shockenz? 15 A: There was -- there was mention of, 16 you know, where some of -- where -- she understood where 17 some of the people were -- may have been laid to rest 18 back there. 19 Q: And when you say, "She," who are you 20 referring to? 21 A: My grandmother Bessie, and her sister 22 Rachel. 23 Q: And can you -- I know it's a long 24 time ago that you were told this, but can you tell us a 25 little bit more about what you had been told by your
1521 grandmother and your great-aunt? 2 A: Well, there was mention that there 3 was where everyone else know that the burial site is 4 there back in behind the -- I guess they were referred as 5 the tank range. 6 And there was other areas that there was - 7 - there was up along the front there and where they used 8 to live from before they were taken from the lands down 9 there. And areas down along to the beach area. 10 Q: Okay, so -- 11 A: All along, she mentioned along the -- 12 along the beach area and I -- I guess that -- that was 13 referred to as possibly part of that Park. 14 Q: Part of the Park? So that the areas 15 that your great-aunt and your grandmother told you about 16 included the graveyard that exists today in the Army 17 Camp? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And they also told you about burials 20 in the northern part of the Army camp along the -- in the 21 area on the north side adjacent to Lake Huron? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And in the Provincial Park? What is 24 now the -- 25 A: She -- she didn't mention in the
1531 Park. She just said along -- along up in that area and 2 that's what I assumed. 3 Q: You assumed that part of it was in 4 the Provincial -- 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: -- Park? Now, I understand that in 7 1992 or in 1993, you participated in a -- to help diffuse 8 a stand-off at Kettle Point? 9 A: Yes, sir, I did. 10 Q: And can you tell us, was that in 1992 11 or 1993 or -- 12 A: It was -- 13 Q: -- winter -- 14 A: It was in the winter time. I don't 15 really know which year it was. I just -- I guess I 16 participated in -- in -- because a family called to my 17 house, breaking daylight and they had fear that their 18 brother may -- may be shot by Provincial Police. 19 Q: And the -- the person involved in the 20 -- involved was Mr. Darryl George? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And he was your cousin? 23 A: He is my cousin, yes. 24 Q: He is your cousin? And so you were 25 called by some of your relatives, but I take it the
1541 direct relatives of Mr. Daryl George -- 2 A: His brother called me, yes. 3 Q: And what did you -- and your brother, 4 his brother told you that Daryl George was involved in an 5 incident with the Ontario Provincial Police? 6 A: He called me and told me that they 7 had cordoned off a section of Kettle Point down there and 8 that they wouldn't let nobody in that area where he was. 9 Q: And which part of Kettle Point was 10 this -- did this -- 11 A: It was up in the area of just the 12 kindergarten daycare centre and there's a sub-division 13 back in there. And -- and he had mentioned to me that 14 they -- they closed that area off and other areas that 15 lead to that. Parts of Indian Lane were -- were shut 16 down by the police, so that no one could enter that area 17 from -- by access below the hill. 18 Q: And was Mr. -- Mr. Daryl George in 19 his house in that area? 20 A: Later, yes, I found out he was there. 21 Q: Okay. And so after you got the 22 telephone call what did you do? 23 A: Well, because of winter time and he 24 said that the roads were shut down so I knew if I went up 25 there in my vehicle I would get stopped on -- by way of
1551 the road. So I took -- I took a skidoo, which I own, and 2 I drove the skidoo along the road and up along the edge 3 of the roadway where the police were trying to stop me. 4 But I just kept going because I was -- wanted to get to 5 this area to see, you know, exactly what was being taken 6 place. 7 Q: And so you got to the -- you got to 8 the area where the incident was taking place? 9 A: Yes, I did. I went -- I drove along 10 the road first and I seen all the OPP cruisers so I 11 turned off and went back in through the bush. 12 There are many trails around Kettle Point 13 so I took one (1) of the bush trails up which brings you 14 up behind, what you call it, the subdivision up there 15 where the incident took place. 16 Q: Is there a name for this particular 17 subdivision? 18 A: Chippewa Circle I believe. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: No. I -- I -- I'm not sure. I 21 forget the name of that subdivision. I lived there and I 22 can't even think of it. 23 Q: Well, that happens to us all. That's 24 happened to me, so. Anyways so that you were on your way 25 and through the bush and so can you tell us what -- what
1561 happened? 2 A: When I came up on top of the hill 3 there, the first thing I -- I noticed, there was police 4 officers standing around and they were armed with rifles 5 and as soon as I came over the hill they -- there was 6 about three (3) or four (4) of them that pointed their 7 guns directly at me. 8 Q: Yes? And then what happened? 9 A: I just kept going to -- to the house 10 that where Darryl was. So I continued on right directly 11 to the house and I went inside and I talked to Darryl 12 what was -- why he was there and then he -- he was 13 afraid. And also he was angry and he told me that they 14 weren't going to take him alive and I talked to him and I 15 told him that's not -- that's not the way to think. 16 So I -- I told him to -- not to put 17 anything out the window except for his hands because he 18 was looking out the window when I arrived. And I told 19 him don't put nothing out the window but your hands and I 20 said I'll -- I'll get -- I'll try to get this 21 straightened out. I said don't do anything wrong because 22 he had told me that he was -- he was going to go down. 23 And I told him don't think like that. 24 So I went to different police and I told 25 them to put their firearms away because they were
1571 pointing them directly at me. And I says you don't need 2 to put -- point those guns around here like that. I said 3 he has no weapons in there. And I -- I told them if you 4 -- if you don't believe me I said, who can you believe? 5 I says he has no weapons in there and to put their -- 6 their weapons away. 7 And I told them I would like to talk to 8 their commanding officer and I was informed that I was 9 trespassing. So -- and then I told the officer that I 10 wasn't trespassing this is my home. I said I want to 11 talk to your commanding officer and I would like you to 12 get our Police Chief Miles Bressette here. Bring him 13 here to this very spot, I says, We need to talk. 14 So he -- he ignored my request at first 15 until I had to go to another officer and I told him the 16 same thing that I told the first one. That they needed - 17 - they need to get their commanding officer to the 18 location where Darryl was, that he was going to surrender 19 to the Kettle Point police and not to the OPP. 20 Whatever took place before that, I have no 21 idea. I was only there, you know, trying to help him 22 from being hurt. Because I'd seen, you know, the police 23 were laying in the weeds all over the place, pointing 24 guns at me and then they'd point them to the direction 25 where Darryl was at the house there.
1581 Q: And was it your understanding that 2 the Ontario Provincial Police believed that -- that Mr. 3 Darryl George was armed? 4 A: That's what they believed, yes, I -- 5 I assume. 6 Q: And had Mr. Darryl George indicated 7 to them -- was it your understanding that he was armed? 8 A: No. I -- I have no idea what was -- 9 if he -- who he talked to before I got there. I was just 10 -- when I got there, just my intention was trying to help 11 him. 12 Q: And as I understand it, Mr. Miles 13 Bressette did attend at the scene? 14 A: Yes he did after I requested that he 15 come there to get that solved. 16 Q: And then Mr. Darryl George 17 surrendered to Mr. Miles Bressette? 18 A: Yes. Two (2) other officers from the 19 Anishnaabek Police arrived before Miles did. When Miles 20 arrived there he looked kind of frightened, scared and 21 Darryl had pretty much -- well gave himself up by then. 22 Q: So Mr. -- Mr. Darryl George had gave 23 himself up to the Anishnaabek police? 24 A: Yes, he did. 25 Q: Now, do you own any -- in 1995, did
1591 you own any weapons, Mr. George? 2 A: Yes, I have a variety of different 3 firearms. 4 Q: And can you tell us what weapons that 5 -- firearms that you owned in 1995 -- prior to September 6 6th, 1995? 7 A: Well, I have a variety of .22 long 8 rifles. I have some high-power hunting rifles, .303, 9 .243, .270, 30-30's, and I -- I purchased an AK47 from 10 one (1) of the gun stores in London along with another -- 11 I guess you'd call it -- they refer to it as haul rifle, 12 but yes I had two (2) -- two (2) of those in that year. 13 Q: And the AK747 (sic) was a semi- 14 automatic rifle? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And you indicated you purchased that 17 in a gun shop in London? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: And that was a gun shop that sold to 20 all members of the public? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And to obtain it you would need a 23 firearms acquisition certificate? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And you had a firearms acquisition
1601 certificate? 2 A: Yes, sir. I went through about three 3 (3) or four (4) different gun safety courses through -- 4 through the years. 5 Q: So that you were -- is it fair to say 6 that -- that hunting and -- and guns were -- was a hobby 7 for you? 8 A: Yes, sir, I grew up with them almost 9 half my life. 10 Q: And when did you first acquire your 11 first firearm? 12 A: My first firearm was in -- would be 13 in -- in the early '80s when I started to use a Treaty 14 right that I understand what -- that the Chippewa Nation 15 had with this country. 16 Q: And so, the Treaty right that you 17 referred was your right to hunt? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And so you hunted on -- to exercise 20 that right? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And the -- prior to 1993, I may have 23 asked you this, but had you hunted on the Army Camp? 24 A: I snuck in there on various occasions 25 because of my understanding of the land and I knew it was
1611 going to take years before it was ever settled that we 2 could go in there and, you know, hunt without sneaking 3 around. 4 Q: Okay. And the AK47 that you referred 5 us to, what did you use that weapon for? 6 A: Mainly target practice. 7 Q: And where did you use it for target 8 practice prior to September -- 9 A: I'd go away from the houses on Kettle 10 Point or in the winter time when I knew there was no one 11 out in the area or on the ice I'd go down and along the 12 lake and set up targets way out on the ice and I know 13 there was no one way out there, so -- 14 Q: And the high-powered rifles that you 15 referred to, I take it, are the .303 -- or the 30-30 and 16 the .306? 17 A: .243, yes, a different variety of 18 high-powered firearms. 19 Q: And you use those for what? Hunting? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: and what did you hunt with those 22 weapons? 23 A: Deer. 24 Q: Deer? And the .22s? 25 A: Smaller game -- raccoons, rabbits.
1621 Q: And in 1993, did you take part in the 2 occupation that we know took place on May the 6th, 1993? 3 A: Not until later that I -- I didn't 4 really know what was going on down there at the time. It 5 was by word of mouth. 6 Q: So you -- you didn't know about the 7 occupation prior to it taking place? 8 A: No, I didn't. 9 Q: And you heard about it after it had 10 taken place? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And after you heard about it, what 13 did you do? 14 A: I went down there like everyone else, 15 curious, just to try to understand who was being -- had 16 spoken, and who was -- what was going to happen, and 17 maybe start some intentions, and a lot of curiosity. 18 Q: And, were you able to attend on the 19 Army Camp when you went down the first time? 20 A: Later on after -- after they had 21 moved into the ranges and, I guess called it home again. 22 I really never went there for -- until a little bit later 23 on after that, when I -- I seen other Council Members 24 going in there and starting to stay for a few days and 25 camp out, out in the range area there.
1631 Q: But did you -- did you -- at one 2 point were you told by someone stopped at a checkpoint, 3 either on the outside or the inside of the Army Camp, and 4 by either the OPP or by the occupiers? 5 A: It was, when the occupation first 6 took place on -- out along Highway 21 in the range 7 area, -- 8 Q: Yes...? 9 A: -- it was, I guess, the first one I 10 spoke to down there was Maynard T. George. 11 Q: Yes...? 12 A: And there was another -- there was a 13 few of them in that area and I -- I was -- I just went 14 down to see if they needed any kind of help, like, what 15 kind of help do you need, you know, do you -- do you want 16 us to, you know, be here supporting you? 17 And I was -- I didn't bother going in, I 18 just leaned on the fence talking to the one I mentioned, 19 Maynard, and he denied me access into the area down 20 there. That wasn't my intention of going in there 21 anyway, because I -- I was trying to understand why they 22 were there. 23 Q: And why did Mr. George tell you they 24 were there? 25 A: He said they were taking the land
1641 back. 2 Q: And why would Mr. Maynard T. George 3 not let you onto the land? 4 A: I guess he felt I wasn't a member of 5 the Stony Point Band. That's what he had told me. 6 Q: And, did -- and Mr. George, Maynard 7 T. George, was located at the time, where on the -- what 8 part of the Army Camp where the -- was Mr. George's camp, 9 Mr. Maynard T.? So the area around Mud Creek, I think it 10 is, east of Mud creek? 11 A: It was right -- right around in this 12 area here. 13 Q: And that's -- is that -- I understand 14 that's called Mud Creek, that Creek that's there? 15 A: I guess so, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And so eventually, how long 17 did it -- when did -- after the first time you visited 18 the Army Camp, how long was it before you actually went 19 on to the Army Camp? 20 A: It was probably a day or two (2), a 21 couple -- good couple days, maybe longer. 22 Q: And, were you stopped by anybody when 23 you went onto the Army Camp the next time? 24 A: No. No, I wasn't. 25 Q: Okay. And did you spend any time at
1651 the Army Camp over the summer of 1993? 2 A: Yes, for a short amount of time. I 3 just went in there and, you know, trying to show them 4 some support that, you know, we're here too to, you know, 5 help you, and try to make the Government understand that, 6 you know, we're -- we're not going to go away and you 7 need to deal with this issue. 8 Q: And did you actually camp? 9 A: Yes, I did. I took my family in 10 there also. 11 Q: And where did you camp when you went 12 in in 1993? 13 A: Most of the -- the campsites were up 14 in this area here, so -- 15 Q: And that's the -- 16 A: -- I went right up, right across from 17 the building in the field, right here. 18 Q: So you went -- you camped in the area 19 just east of the built-up area in the -- 20 A: There was a little group of trees 21 right on the corner there, would be... 22 Q: in the area just -- there's a mortar 23 range and it's -- 24 A: Right in there. 25 Q: -- immediately south of the mortar
1661 range, it's the area beside the second road leading 2 towards the mortar range, and, so you set up camp there? 3 A: Yes, I was. 4 Q: And you say you took your family, how 5 many of your family? Your wife and children went? 6 A: No. My wife, she'd come to see how 7 we were doing and she was kind of afraid of what was 8 going on in there. So she just come in there and said, 9 be careful don't get too much closer than you already 10 are. Because most of everybody that was set up was along 11 in here. 12 Q: More pe -- the people were closer. 13 Many -- more of the people were closer to the rifle range 14 is that so? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And, so, who did you camp with? Your 17 brothers? 18 A: No. I -- well my brother came over 19 and he stayed there for a little while and -- I didn't 20 stay very long. 21 Q: Was that Stacey or Jeremiah? 22 A: Both. 23 Q: Both? And how long did you stay, Mr. 24 George? 25 A: Probably just a few days. It wasn't
1671 very long. 2 Q: And did you visit afterwards over the 3 summer of 1993, and the fall and winter of 1993, '94? 4 A: Yes. I'd go in there and very 5 shortly I'd go in and back out again. Because I had 6 another friend, Roger, he was -- he had a trailer set way 7 back up on the other north end of the lands in question 8 down there. 9 Q: And his trailer was in the northern 10 part of the army camp, up near the Inland Lakes? 11 A: Yes, it was. 12 Q: And his name was Roger? 13 A: Roger George. 14 Q: Roger George? And how long did Mr. 15 Roger George stay at the army camp? 16 A: I -- I don't think he stayed in there 17 very long. He'd come and go. But he had a trailer up on 18 the north end and I went to visit him a couple of times. 19 Q: And did anyone else other than -- did 20 anyone other than Mr. Maynard T. George in the summer of 21 1993 tell you, you were not welcome on the army camp? 22 A: No. He was the only one. He said I 23 needed a Stony Point card to enter the land there and I 24 just kind of shook my head and walked away. 25 Q: But that was only the one time early
1681 on? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now you were a member of council at 4 this time? 5 A: I believe I just -- 6 Q: You were elected in 1992? 7 A: Yes. Yes. 8 Q: And did -- I think you said other 9 council members attended at the army camp? 10 A: Yes. I seen one (1) other council 11 member in there. He was camped in there and Mr. Norm 12 Shawnoo and his family was along by -- and the ranges up 13 there. There was quite a few different families in 14 there. 15 Q: And did -- as a Band councillor, did 16 you initiate, or did the Band council initiate, 17 discussions with the occupiers of the army camp? 18 A: There was talks about how they were 19 proceeding and what we thought, you know, as a -- as a 20 council. I guess it was -- there was other family 21 members in there. I -- I seen other councillors come and 22 go in there. I mean it was like a big -- they were 23 trying to stay together, a bond as, you know, Native 24 people there, a bond, trying to keep together on certain 25 issues.
1691 Q: And did you have discussions with the 2 -- as a Band council, with the occupiers? 3 A: Yes. We had different discussions 4 about the lands down there and how we could, you know, 5 try to resolve and make things better so that there 6 wouldn't be a lot of problems. 7 Q: And the -- I understand you were not 8 part of any negotiations with the federal government with 9 respect to the army camp? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And in 1993, the -- were you on -- at 12 the army camp when -- in August of 1993 at the alleged 13 helicopter incident? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: And did you hear about it? 16 A: Yes, I heard about it. 17 Q: And how did you hear about it? 18 A: One of the Band members came to 19 Kettle Point and I was working down there at a cabinet 20 shop that I was -- and she had told me what had happened 21 first thing in the morning. I just stopped everything 22 that I was doing and attended down there. 23 Q: You went down to the -- to the Army 24 camp? 25 A: Yes, sir.
1701 Q: And what happened when you got to the 2 Army camp? 3 A: When I got there, there was numerous 4 police cruisers in the area and there was media along the 5 road and there was -- the public were starting to get 6 curious at what was going on. 7 There was quite a bit of traffic along 8 there, people stopping, and everyone was curious to see 9 what was going on. 10 Q: And did you try to go in to the Army 11 camp? 12 A: No, not at first I never tried to. I 13 was just kind of upset of, you know, watching what was 14 taking place. You could tell there was a -- a raid of 15 some sort happening down there. 16 You could see the police going in and out 17 of trailers and they had their -- there was -- it was 18 referred to as a church at the time, they were in and out 19 of that and I was getting kind of, you know, but I just 20 stood at the fence, watching. 21 Q: And the church is what we now -- is 22 now, do you know it as the Argument Hall? 23 A: I never knew it was called that until 24 the other day. 25 Q: Okay. But it's the -- it's located
1711 on the Army camp in the area by the transition range? Is 2 that correct? I just want to make sure we're talking 3 about the same -- 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: -- building? Is that correct? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And so on -- on this -- the day in 8 August, I guess it would have been August 24th. Did you 9 try to get onto the Army camp at all during that day? 10 A: I did go onto the lands after that, 11 yes. 12 Q: Okay. And was your brother, Stacey 13 George, did he live at the Army camp in 1993 or visit it? 14 A: Yes, he was -- he was get -- becoming 15 fairly involved in what was taking place down there. 16 Q: Okay. And did you hunt on the Army 17 camp between May of 1993 and July of 1995? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And -- now, did you visit in 1994? 20 A: I would have little, short visits, 21 not very long. 22 Q: And -- and 1995, before July 29th? 23 A: Yes, I would go in and little short 24 visits and out again. I didn't really spend a lot of 25 time there.
1721 Q: And -- 2 A: Just talking, you know, 'cause my 3 friends were there, some of my family was there. 4 Q: So who would you visit? Do you 5 recall who you would visit when you went, Mr George? 6 A: My sister Mary. Everyone called her 7 Gina. She moved right into barracks where everyone else 8 was, a little. 9 Q: This was before the move in to the 10 barracks? 11 A: Oh, before? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Well, no, I didn't really go there a 14 lot. I would just -- come and go, I guess. Just to make 15 sure, you know, things were okay and... 16 Q: Just talk to the people? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, on July 29th of 1995, we 19 know that the occupiers moved into the built up area of 20 the Army camp, and were you aware of the -- that this was 21 going to happen prior to the move in to the built up 22 area? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And how did you learn about the move 25 in to the built up area?
1731 A: Word came to Kettle Point pretty 2 quick what was taking place, and I guess that's how a lot 3 of the information was passed on, and as soon as someone 4 knew something was going on, they'd come right directly 5 to Kettle Point, and you know, let the Council know, or 6 let someone else know what went on at Kettle Point there, 7 you know, they -- what was happening. 8 Q: And when you learned about it, did 9 you learn about it on July 29th, 1995, the same day? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And did you go down to the built up 12 area of the Army camp? 13 A: Later on I did. I don't think I was 14 directly in the area of Kettle Point when it happened. I 15 was -- I did later on, yes. 16 Q: And when you say "later on", was that 17 later on July 29th, on the same day? 18 A: It might have been the next day or 19 something. 20 Q: Okay. And what -- what did you do 21 when you went there? 22 A: I went as far as the front gate. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And just talked and I guess I kind of 25 sang a song at the front gate there.
1741 Q: And did you go into the Army Camp? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And during the summer of July -- from 4 July 29th, 1995 to September the 4th, 1995 did you go up 5 into the Army Camp to the built-up area? 6 A: Later on, yes, I did. 7 Q: And that was to visit your sister? 8 A: Yes, after that -- that's after the 9 people were starting to move into the barracks. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: And my sister was one of them that 12 moved in there and I had -- had a long talk with her 13 before she did about being -- tried to explain what was 14 being -- what was taking place and the care that she 15 needed to -- and some of the understanding that she 16 needed to -- before she did move in there. 17 Q: And -- but -- so after your 18 discussions with your sister, she did move in? 19 A: Yes. I -- I told her she shouldn't, 20 but I says, If that's what you want to do, I -- I can't 21 stop you. 22 Q: And in -- after the move into the 23 Army Camp, was it -- the move into the built-up area, 24 excuse me, of the Army Camp -- did it become a part of 25 discussions with the Band Council that --
1751 A: Yes, there was different discussions 2 about what was taking place at the time. 3 Q: And I've put in front of you a copy 4 of Exhibit P-43, which is Inquiry Document 6000354 and 5 it's the minutes of a meeting on August the 1st, 1995 and 6 I take it, Mr. George that you're the Bernard George 7 that's referred to as being present -- one (1) of the 8 Councillors who were present? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: And Mr. Norm Shawnoo was present and 11 it's Mr. Norm Shawnoo that you referred to a few minutes 12 ago as having camped on the Army Camp? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And his family was from Stoney Point? 15 A: I guess that would be up to him to -- 16 to say that. 17 Q: But he had -- 18 A: I have -- yes, he was -- he was part 19 of the talks down there. 20 Q: and what was the purpose of the 21 meeting on August the 1st, 1995? 22 A: It was to, you know, we needed some 23 direction from the Band to, you know, help us decide as a 24 Council in whole because we -- we spoke -- we spoke on 25 behalf of the Band, so we needed some kind of direction
1761 to know which road we could take to -- to try and resolve 2 some of the issues that we were -- we were being faced 3 with. 4 Q: And one (1) of those issues was the 5 occupation of the Army Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I understand that the -- if you 8 look at the first page -- at the bottom of the first page 9 -- the elder, Rachel Shockenz that's referred to is your 10 great-aunt. Is that correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And what -- did this meeting -- this 13 was a community meeting open to all members of the 14 community who wished to attend? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And can you tell us how many people 17 attended the meeting? Do you remember, Mr. George? 18 A: It was a fair amount. I -- I 19 expected a lot more, but the ones that were interested 20 showed up. 21 Q: And do you have any idea of the 22 number? Can you recall at all the number of people who 23 attended? 24 A: Well, it was probably about three- 25 quarters full of the chairs that was set up -- a couple
1771 of hundred anyway. 2 Q: A couple of hundred people? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And I take it that Exhibit P-43 was 5 simply the transcript of the discussion that took place? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And I've also placed before you, a 8 copy of Exhibit P-30 and it's Inquiry Document Number 9 2001697 and it's a letter dated August 3, 1995 from the 10 Kettle and Stoney Point Council to the Kettle and Stoney 11 Point Band members who are occupying Camp Ipperwash, and 12 it's signed by Chief Tom Bressette. 13 Firstly, have you seen that letter before? 14 A: I may have, yes. 15 Q: And, did you participate in the -- 16 the discussions at the Council that resulted in this 17 letter? 18 A: Basically we had various meetings 19 concerning this issue but when it was presented to, you 20 know, the ones that were down there at the land in 21 question, and I didn't partake in that, no. 22 Q: But -- but you knew that a letter had 23 been drafted and was going to be -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- delivered to --
1781 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- the people who were at the Army 3 Camp? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And -- but you did not participate in 6 the delivery of the letter? 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: And, in the second paragraph of the 9 letter, there's a reference to the non -- it reads: 10 "First of all the majority of the 11 community members who attended the 12 community meeting feel the non-Band 13 Members occupying the Stony Point 14 lands, should be thanked for their 15 support and respectfully asked to 16 leave. This does not include the Band 17 Members." 18 And what was your understanding of the 19 purpose of that particular paragraph? 20 A: The purpose of that particular 21 paragraph was to -- it was to -- we -- to thank them for 22 their support that they did as where -- whichever First 23 Nation it came from were, and it was -- it was time to 24 sit down and have discussions was -- the ones that were 25 there on the lands down there.
1791 And we felt that because there were not 2 Band -- or Band Members from the said Band, that we need 3 a internal discussion within ourselves, so that we could 4 sit down and, you know, try to make things better. 5 Q: And when you say, sit down and try to 6 make things better, you are referring to discussions 7 among all of the Members of the Kettle and Stony Point 8 Band, whether at Kettle Point or at Stony Point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And how would you describe the 11 relationship between the Members of the Band living at 12 Kettle Point and the Members of the Band living at Stony 13 Point in the early part of August, 1995? 14 A: I grew up with quite a few of the 15 people that are living there now. I grew up with the 16 majority of everyone that was -- that are living there 17 now. But just because there was kind of like a -- I felt 18 there was a little separation between your friends, 19 because the Government wouldn't get directly involved in 20 -- in letting us know, you know, what was -- what was 21 going to be done about the land. 22 So that, I guess there was a blame placed 23 upon the -- you know, you got to -- you got to blame 24 somebody, because you're not showing your best. So that, 25 it took -- there was a slow, gradual change in -- in your
1801 friends, I'd put it, in the ones that moved down there. 2 You know, I kind of witnessed it, I didn't 3 like to see it happen, because you were so used to 4 growing up with -- with your friends down there, and then 5 all of a sudden there was a -- a lack of communication 6 and I don't know if it was because I -- I accepted a 7 position as a Council Member for -- for -- for Kettle and 8 Stony Point and I don't know if it was held against me. 9 But all I wanted to do was, you know, try 10 to decide what was best as a whole and there was a, you 11 know, and there was a communication gap and I didn't like 12 to see it but it happened. 13 Q: And the non-Band Members that are 14 referred to in the second paragraph of P-30, what was the 15 concern about having non-Band members at Stony Point? 16 A: I guess when you're -- when you 17 listen and you're talking to your Elders and not only, 18 you know, the people that you're growing up with around 19 there and there was -- there was a kind of I guess a fear 20 put inside of them that there was strange people walking 21 around down there with camouflage clothes on and they 22 thought they were, you know, there to take over their 23 land and that they had -- they were going to be denied 24 access onto the land. And they were sensing a change in 25 their feelings.
1811 They -- they wanted -- they wanted -- I 2 guess they wanted to see them go home so that we could 3 sit down and talk, you know, as a -- as a group, you 4 know, that we needed to. 5 Q: And this was a feeling that some of 6 the Elders had. But this is not something that had 7 happened? 8 A: No. It was -- it was a change, you 9 know. And because I was on -- on Council at the time 10 there was other individual -- individual that they were 11 approaching me asking me to, you know, see what I could 12 do to, you know, to ask them if they could go home while 13 we sit down and try to, you know, talk about the land. 14 Q: And during August of 1993, did you 15 have any discussions with the occupiers at Stony Point, 16 official discussions? 17 A: We had a convention, we had various 18 meetings on trying to decide how -- how we can go about 19 it without causing, you know, a bigger communication gap 20 within, you know, our people down there. It was always 21 kind of difficult. 22 Q: But did you succeed in having any 23 discussions? 24 A: Yes, we had. 25 Q: With the people at the Army camp?
1821 A: To somewhat, yes. 2 Q: Yes? And what was the results of 3 those discussions? That was in August of 1995? I'm 4 talking about prior to September 4th, 1995. 5 A: August of '95? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I have to think about that because we 8 had different meetings and -- 9 Q: Perhaps it would be a good time to 10 take the afternoon break and they could just have a few 11 minutes to think about that, Mr. George. We normally 12 have an afternoon break so it's probably a good time to 13 take it. 14 A: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 16 George? Then we'll have a break for fifteen (15) 17 minutes. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 3:39 p.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 3:56 p.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
1831 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Mr. George, before the break I was 3 asking you about any meetings that you had in August of 4 1995, if any, with the members of the Band who were 5 occupying Stony Point, the Army -- 6 A: If we had -- 7 Q: -- camp? 8 A: -- had meetings with the ones that 9 were in occupation on there? 10 Q: Yeah, did you? 11 A: We -- yes, we attempted to have them 12 come to Kettle Point and be part of the talks down there. 13 Q: And did that happen? 14 A: Some attended, not all of them. We - 15 - we hoped that the majority of them would come to Kettle 16 Point and, you know, we could sit around and have 17 discussions to see what they felt. 18 Q: And so some people came to -- 19 A: Some -- 20 Q: -- some meetings? 21 A: Some came and some didn't. 22 Q: And in the month of October -- excuse 23 me, August, 1995 did you have any meetings with or 24 discussions with the Federal government about the Army 25 camp and about the occupation?
1841 A: We had -- I can't recall exactly what 2 took place at some of these meetings, yes, but the 3 Federal government did come to the Band office and we had 4 discussions about the land down there and issues 5 surrounding the land. 6 Q: And we've seen the minutes of -- 7 that's Exhibit P-43, of the community meeting on August 8 the 1st. 9 Prior to September 4th, 1995 did you have 10 any other community meetings with respect to the 11 occupation of the Army camp? 12 A: We -- we had quite a bit of meetings 13 there. 14 Q: But meetings with the community, 15 public meetings with the community? 16 A: Some, yes. 17 Q: Okay. And what was the result of 18 those meetings? Was any action taken by the Council as a 19 result of the meetings with the community? 20 A: Yes, at one of them, it was a -- 21 because there was some concern about non-Band members 22 that were part of the occupation down on the lands down 23 there, that we felt that it was a need to -- someone from 24 Council had to attend, you know, one of these other First 25 Nations and -- and talk to their leaders, chiefs in
1851 respect to what was taking place at the time. 2 Q: And did you participate in a -- 3 talking to another First Nation with respect to the -- 4 what was taking place at the Army camp? 5 A: Yes, I participated in -- one other 6 person, we travelled to Six Nations there, First Nation 7 down there and I had -- we had discussions with their -- 8 their chiefs and some of their Elders at the Long House. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And I went down there and I -- I 11 thanked their -- their Chiefs and their people that came 12 down and helped us in -- with, you know, helping us out 13 and being there and supporting us and their -- our 14 endeavours to attempt to get back the land. 15 Q: And what if -- did you ask what in 16 particular, if anything, did you ask the Chiefs and 17 Council members at the Long House to do? 18 A: Well, first of all I thanked them for 19 their support and -- and I asked them if they would speak 20 to their -- their members of that community to -- to come 21 -- to ask them to come home and we sat down and tried -- 22 tried to have some discussions with the ones that were in 23 occupation down there on the said land. 24 Q: And what members of their community 25 were you concerned about, that you were asking about --
1861 asking them to recall? 2 A: Well because of some of the 3 discussions that were being taking place there was some 4 of their members were dressed in camouflage fatigue and 5 the kind of -- I guess they kind of frightened some our - 6 -our older people on Kettle Point. 7 They had a concern, you know, we -- we 8 need to talk to this -- talk about this together, you 9 know. 10 We need to get the ones that were down 11 there to come back to Kettle Point and sit down because 12 the -- the Federal government didn't really recognize 13 their -- what they were trying to tell the government. 14 The Federal government only, I guess they 15 only recognize the Kettle and Stony Point Band, the 16 elected Council and Chief at the said time. So it was 17 kind of a -- it was kind of difficult to sit down and 18 really, you know, try to explain and say come back home, 19 we need to sit down and talk by ourselves. 20 Not with anybody else. We -- we got to 21 solve this together. And like I mentioned earlier that 22 some of them came and some of them didn't. 23 Q: But with respect to the Oneida Long 24 House at Six Nations, the concern there was you wanted 25 the Chief and Council to ask their members to return --
1871 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- to leave the Army camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were there any particular members 5 that -- of the Oneida First Nation that you asked them to 6 ask to return? 7 A: I felt that they -- they understood 8 our request and what -- whatever happened after that -- 9 the message that was sent back to the ones that were 10 helping support the occupation down there, I don't know. 11 I -- I never really got back any detail about what was 12 really told to the ones that were there. 13 Q: And did you know any of the people 14 that were at the Army camp after July 29th, 1995? Did 15 you know the names? 16 A: Yes, I -- I knew a few. Buck, I call 17 him by, and he had some of his -- 18 Q: Isaac Doxtator? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I knew him for -- for a number of 22 years and some of the other people that were with him I - 23 - I don't really know them that good. 24 Q: But did you -- so it was Mr. Isaac 25 Doxtator, did you know Mr. Gabriel Doxtator?
1881 A: Not really. No, I never really knew 2 the person. Just -- I only met him on a few short times. 3 Q: And were there any other individuals 4 that you were concerned about? Maybe just the people 5 from Oneida? 6 A: Oh, oh. Yes, there was other members 7 from Walpole Island that were helping there supporting 8 what was going on. There was some from different First 9 Nations and there were some I -- I didn't know at all. 10 Q: And did you know Mr. Robert Isaac? I 11 think he's from Walpole? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was he one of the ones that you 14 were -- 15 A: He was there and he was supporting, 16 you know, but I -- I really didn't spend a lot of time in 17 there when the occupation was taking place. I would just 18 come and go 19 Q: But the concern that some of the 20 Elders had with respect to the other people, what was the 21 concern? The fact that they -- some of them wore 22 camouflage outfits? 23 A: Yes. They were I guess they were 24 more or less afraid and I guess it was just what we would 25 hear from an individual is how they feel. And I was
1891 hearing that they're there to take our land -- to claim 2 our land and -- 3 Q: So that their -- 4 A: -- I knew that wasn't so but I -- I 5 couldn't -- I couldn't tell them that. I mean a person 6 thinks the way they -- they do and you can't change the 7 way they think. 8 Q: That wasn't what you -- you understood 9 that that wasn't what the supporters who were there were 10 there for? 11 A: Yes. Yes. 12 Q: They were there to support, not to 13 take the land? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: During the month of August and prior 16 to September 4th, 1995, after the occupation of the 17 built-up area of the Army camp, did you notice any 18 change in the police presence in and around the Army 19 camp? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And can you tell us what you noticed? 22 What you observed? 23 A: I had a job to do, like -- like a lot 24 of other people and what time I did have I spent it 25 riding around the -- the outside surrounding areas of the
1901 lands down there and, you know, just seeing what was out 2 there. 3 And I'd -- I'd go out and go for a ride 4 out on the country back roads, surrounding area, and 5 you'd see police cruisers sitting here and there and 6 sometimes two (2) at a time, sometimes a little more. 7 And I noticed more of a police presence 8 around in the Forest area and they were -- they were -- 9 starting to gather more. 10 Q: And was -- when did you first notice 11 the buildup in and around the Army Camp and can you tell 12 us, was it shortly after July 29th? 13 A: Yes, it was after July and then into 14 the month of August, the late -- later parts of August 15 you'd notice a lot of -- a lot more police presence. 16 Q: And when did you notice the increase 17 in police presence in Forest? 18 A: Mostly near the end of August into 19 September. 20 Q: And was that before the occupation of 21 the Provincial Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And when you say you noticed and 24 increased police presence in Forest, can you tell us what 25 you mean by that?
1911 A: Well, when I'd go for a ride and when 2 -- with a lot of -- not only myself, the whole area 3 surrounding us in and around Kettle Point and Ipperwash 4 area, I mean, everyone was starting to notice that there 5 was a lot more presence of police being noticed. 6 You'd go into Forest and you'd see a lot 7 of -- a lot more cruisers as the police station and 8 anywhere you went there -- there was -- specially near 9 the end of August into September. 10 Q: And so that was -- that buildup 11 occurred prior to September 4th? 12 A: Slowly, yes, slowly. 13 Q: And did -- in August of 1995, you 14 told us that your sister, Gina Johnson, was in the -- 15 living at the built-up area. Was your brother, Stacey, 16 living there then, too? 17 A: Yes, I believe he was in and out. 18 He'd come and go. She was down there for a while and 19 then she left, but she was kind of coming and going too. 20 Q: And did any other members of your 21 immediate family move into the Army Camp -- the built-up 22 area? 23 A: No, I -- it was Stacey, they 24 nicknamed Burger. He spent quite a bit of his time down 25 there.
1921 Q: And your sister, Gina? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, in August of -- after -- from 4 July 29th, 1995 to September 4th, 1995 did you, as a Band 5 Councilor -- or did the Band Council have any meetings or 6 discussions with the Ontario Provincial Police with 7 respect to the occupation of the built-up area of the 8 Army Camp? 9 A: Discussion with the OPP? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: There may have been, but not that I 12 can recall at this moment. 13 Q: And in 1995, was the Forest 14 Detachment independent or did it come under the Petrolia 15 Detachment of the -- of the OPP? Do you know? 16 A: I believe it came under -- what -- 17 what I understood it was -- Petrolia was the -- more or 18 less the one (1) leading office in that area. 19 Q: And Forest was one (1) of the 20 subsidiary offices? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did you talk to any police officers 23 about the perceived buildup that -- the buildup that you 24 saw in August of 1995 and early September 1995 in the -- 25 A: Personally?
1931 Q: Yes. 2 A: No. 3 Q: And why not? 4 A: Well, as -- as you well know, that -- 5 right at the beginning, we went through a lot of my past, 6 which I'm not very proud of, and that was only -- that 7 only touched on areas of -- of me being under arrest, and 8 some of the arrests that took place where they were 9 really never discussed in detail. 10 But I -- I don't know, to me, when you get 11 dragged around by the hair and more or less treated like 12 you're a -- we're going to put you away and keep you 13 away, is -- it puts a feeling in one's mind that, yeah, 14 you can't really trust them, you -- especially when 15 you're getting dragged around by the hair, and treated 16 like you're not supposed to be, I mean, -- 17 Q: Now, was this prior to September 4th, 18 1995, I'm talking -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It was? 21 A: So I -- I, you know, I -- I'll talk 22 to police officers, I mean, I have nothing against them. 23 I talk to them because I have to. When you -- when you 24 hold responsibilities, like the Band Council, you have 25 to -- you have to do that type of -- keep that
1941 communication going. 2 But because of my past and the treatment I 3 got from some of the arrests that I went through, was 4 just -- it made me feel kind of like there was no -- no 5 way to trust in them. Even though I held that position, 6 I -- I still had that feeling within me. 7 Q: Did you know, Mr. George, about the - 8 - that the occupation of the Provincial Park was going to 9 take place on September 4th, prior to September 4th? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: And when did you first learn, Mr. 12 George, about the occupation of the Provincial Park? 13 A: Like I mentioned before, news travels 14 pretty quick down there when something takes place there. 15 Another Band member will immediately come and tell you, 16 or -- and news travels very fast down there. 17 I didn't know, I don't even think I was 18 home at the time when it took place, because I had a job 19 to do and then as soon as I finished the job I -- I went 20 to the area to see what was going on. 21 Q: And what was your -- when you first 22 heard of the fact that Members of your community had 23 moved in to the Provincial Park, what was your reaction 24 to the move into the Provincial Park? What did you think 25 about that?
1951 A: I just said, uh oh. 2 Q: And why did you say, "Uh oh"? 3 A: Because I knew that -- the land there 4 was -- in question was -- was part of Stony Point lands 5 before it was made into a Park. I knew the area was -- 6 was all one (1). 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: And when I -- I heard that had taken 9 place, I -- I thought that we're going to have another 10 issue on top of what we already had. 11 Q: And the other issues were the issues 12 within the Army Camp? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did you -- apart from the -- your 15 concerns as a -- that's another issue that had to be 16 dealt with, what was your view as to the fact of the 17 occupation on September 4th of the Provincial Park? 18 A: What was my view? I can't hear very 19 good with this ear and -- 20 Q: I'm sorry. If you can't hear me, 21 please let me know and I'll speak up. What was your 22 view, apart from the concern that you had that it was 23 another issue that had to be dealt with, did you have any 24 view as to the -- the fact of the occupation by the 25 occupiers?
1961 Did you think that they had a right to 2 demonstrate or occupy or not? What was your reaction to 3 that? 4 A: Well, what I -- what I thought at the 5 time was that you -- no one can stop an individual in 6 what they believe. If that individual or individuals 7 believe that they're -- they want a -- they want an issue 8 to be known, then I guess that's their right to do that. 9 And I can't -- I can't tell a person, no. 10 Q: So, that you thought they had a right 11 to demonstrate and express what they believed? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you said earlier that after you 14 heard about the occupation of the Park, you drove to the 15 Park. Was that on September 4th? 16 A: A day -- that they went to the Park? 17 I -- I believe it was the next day. 18 Q: The next day? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did you go actually into the Park 21 or simply drive by? 22 A: No, I -- I went down, I guess Army 23 Camp Road. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: There was police presence there.
1971 There was a couple of spot checks there, I guess they 2 call them. 3 Q: And do you recall where the spot 4 checks were on September 5th? We have a copy of Exhibit 5 P-40 on the screen. 6 A: I believe there -- 7 Q: And you're indicating -- 8 A: -- I was -- believe there might have 9 been some right in this area. 10 Q: And that's near the entrance to the 11 Army camp, that's just north of Highway 21? 12 A: Yeah, it was there. I believe there 13 was a couple there. 14 Q: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Right around in this area here and 19 there was a little more up along here. There was 20 different locations where there was cruisers at. 21 Q: There was one farther north on the 22 Army Camp Road? 23 A: There was -- there's a little part -- 24 somewhere right in this area, right around in here 25 somewhere.
1981 Q: So, they -- it's the trailer park 2 that you're referring to that's on Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yeah, it was right around in that 4 area. 5 Q: Okay. And were you stopped on 6 September 5th when you drove up north on Army Camp Road 7 at -- by the police officers at these checkpoints? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what did they -- what did they 10 ask you? 11 A: He asked me for identification and 12 why we were going there, down that area. 13 Q: And did you tell them who you were 14 and -- 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: -- and did you tell them what you 17 were doing? 18 A: I told them I'm going out for a ride 19 down here to see what's going on and they didn't stop me. 20 Q: And did you go into the Park? 21 A: No, I didn't. 22 Q: And did the police officers say 23 anything else to you, other than ask you who you were and 24 where you were going? 25 A: I can't recall their exact words, but
1991 they -- I think one of them, I seen Gerald one (1) of my 2 cousins, he was -- he was sitting on the road there, 3 talking to the police. 4 Q: On September the 5th? 5 A: No, that was the same day. That 6 was... 7 Q: Yeah, we're talking about the day -- 8 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 9 Q: Were talking -- maybe we'll back up. 10 The -- what we're -- what I'm talking about and you'll 11 recall that -- that -- 12 A: Oh, you -- 13 Q: We were -- 14 A: On September 5th I -- I rode by there 15 probably maybe once or twice. 16 Q: And on September 5th you weren't 17 stopped at any -- 18 A: Well, we stopped -- 19 Q: -- checkpoint? 20 A: -- I think, on Highway 21, I think I 21 was stopped by another police cruiser. 22 Q: And was that at Highway 21 and Army 23 Camp Road? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So, that if I might take you back on
2001 the evening of September 4th, did you go down -- after 2 you heard about the occupation, did you drive by the Army 3 --by the Provincial Park on the evening of September 4th? 4 A: Yes, I think I might have went by 5 once. 6 Q: Okay. And on September 5th, did you 7 go down and drive by the Provincial Park? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And you were stopped at that time by 10 a police officer at the intersection of Highway 21 and 11 Army Camp Road on September 5th? This is the day before 12 the incident that -- in the sandy parking lot. 13 A: I know I went by there a couple of 14 times. And the one time I went through there I wasn't 15 stopped but the next day I believe I was stopped. 16 Q: On September 6th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So, you weren't stopped on September 19 5th? 20 A: No, I don't -- I don't think I was. 21 Q: And did -- when you went down to the 22 -- by the Park on September the 5th, did you stop and 23 talk to anyone inside the Park? 24 A: On September the 5th? 25 Q: Yes. Did you talk to your brother or
2011 your sister or -- 2 A: I think I just drove by there. I 3 didn't really spend no time there hardly. I just -- I 4 was more curious to see what was taking place. 5 Q: On September 5th as well? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And did you prior to the 8 evening of September 6th talk to your brother Stacey or 9 your sister Gina? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: When was that? 12 A: That was in the late afternoon 13 towards the evening. 14 Q: Of September 5th or 6th? 15 A: 6th. 16 Q: 6th, okay. The -- on September 5th 17 the -- is it correct that you believe you may have been 18 stopped at a checkpoint on September 5th? I anticipate 19 there will be evidence that you were, but. 20 A: I'm trying to think back on those two 21 (2) days. I know I was stopped that one (1) day when I 22 went there -- I went by there two (2) days in a row and I 23 was stopped just the one (1) time I believe. I may have 24 been stopped the day before but I can't really recall. 25 Q: Now, the -- after the occupation on
2021 September 4th -- on September 4th and September 5th, did 2 you notice any change in the police presence either near 3 the army camp or in Forrest? 4 A: That when -- yeah, I noticed they 5 were really concentrating more on the surrounding area of 6 the land down there, around the Ipperwash area. 7 Q: When -- what do you mean, Mr. George, 8 when you say they were really concentrating on the area 9 around -- 10 A: That's when I noticed more police 11 vehicles in that area directly than anywhere else. 12 Q: So -- so, there were more police 13 vehicles on Highway 21? 14 A: Yes. I'd seen them travelling on the 15 roads and in and around down along the beach area. You'd 16 see them parked here and there and two (2) or three (3) 17 at -- together. 18 Q: And this is at the beach on -- in 19 front of the Army Camp and the Provincial Park? 20 A: All around that area, yes. 21 Q: And did you notice police on East 22 Parkway -- on East Parkway Drive? This is on September 23 4th or September 5th. 24 A: Yes. They were all around in the 25 area of the Ipperwash there and -- within these two (2)
2031 days. 2 Q: And did you drive down on September 3 4th or September 5th -- did you drive along Outer Drive? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And did you notice police along Outer 6 Drive? 7 A: I believe it might have been on the 8 4th or 5th I got pulled over on Highway 21, right on 9 Highway 21 and Outer Drive. 10 Q: You were stopped? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And why were you stopped? 13 A: I don't know. I was just pulled 14 over. 15 Q: Was there a -- was there a checkpoint 16 there or was -- 17 A: No. No. A cruiser, he was sitting 18 on the -- on the corner there watching me go by and I 19 guess as soon as he noticed that I was native, the lights 20 came on and pulled me over. 21 Q: And you were go -- driving towards 22 Outer Drive? 23 A: No, I was going towards Grand Bend 24 there, take a ride to see what was -- kind of police 25 activity was out that way.
2041 Q: And did the police officer tell you 2 why he stopped you? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did he give you a ticket for 5 anything? 6 A: No. 7 Q: What did he say to you? 8 A: He just wanted to see my 9 identification and asked me who I was. 10 Q: And -- so you told him you who you 11 were and -- 12 A: Yes. I believe I mentioned that I'm 13 one (1) of the -- that I'm an elected council member. 14 Q: And so, what did he say? 15 A: Handed me ID back and said that was 16 it. 17 Q: So, there was no explanation? 18 A: He didn't have an explanation for me 19 why he stopped me. 20 Q: Okay. And on September 6th, the -- 21 were you working on September 6th? 22 A: Yes, I was. 23 Q: And were you working at Kettle Point? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you go down to the Park on
2051 September 6th? 2 A: Yes, I did. It was in the later part 3 of the day. 4 Q: And did you notice any -- how did you 5 get to the Park when you drove there on the later part of 6 the day on September 6th? 7 A: Down Highway 21. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: To Army Camp Road. 10 Q: Yes? And then north to the Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did -- were you stopped by any 13 police officers on -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- September 6th? 16 A: I think I might have been stopped 17 twice. 18 Q: And where were you stopped? 19 A: I think I might have been stopped 20 somewhere along here and then right in here again. 21 Q: So, that you're pointing to an area 22 north of -- between the entrance to the Army camp and the 23 road that runs on Exhibit P-40, from the sewerage 24 disposal area east, between that road and the main gate? 25 A: Yes.
2061 Q: And then between that road and 2 Matheson Drive, near the -- the trailer park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what did -- do you recall what 5 the police officers said to you on that -- the occasion 6 you were stopped at the two (2) checkpoints? 7 A: They asked us for our identification. 8 Q: And when you say, our identification, 9 who were you with? 10 A: I was with my common-law wife. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Roseanne (phonetic) and I picked up 13 another fellow, one (1) of my friends, Kevin Thomas. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And they let us through and they -- 16 they said -- I can't remember exactly what they said but 17 they didn't tell us we couldn't go in that area. 18 Q: Okay. So, they -- they stopped you 19 and you went through? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you observe anything on your 22 way north at any of the checkpoints? You mentioned 23 something earlier about Gerald? 24 A: Yes, Gerald -- Gerald was parked 25 along the road talking to one (1) or two (2) more of the
2071 officers that were around by that campground there. 2 Q: By the -- 3 A: Across from the Stony Point -- 4 Q: Near the trailer park? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And had you talked to Mr. Gerald 7 George prior to seeing him on Army Camp Drive that day? 8 A: Yes, he came to my home. 9 Q: And when did he come to your home, 10 sir? 11 A: That was probably an hour or so 12 before I went down there. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: Within that time. 15 Q: And what, if anything, did you 16 discuss? 17 A: Well he was kind of excited and -- 18 about seeing a lot of the police cruisers heading down 19 north on twenty-one (21). He was on his way into Forest 20 and he said he seen cruisers and what looked like a paddy 21 wagon heading in that area of, you know, Stony Point. 22 Q: So, he said -- 23 A: Said there was like seven (7) to ten 24 (10) cruisers all just booting it down there, that's what 25 his exact words were, they were booting it down that way.
2081 Q: And can you recall where he said that 2 he was when he saw the cruisers and the paddy wagon on 3 Highway 21? 4 A: No, he didn't exactly say where he 5 seen them. He just said he met them coming -- heading 6 that way. He was on his way into Forest and he didn't 7 say where he seen them on the highway, just that they 8 were heading that way. 9 Q: So, there -- but you told us a few 10 minutes -- a minute ago that they were heading north, so 11 they would have been -- it would have been between Forest 12 and Kettle Point? 13 A: Kettle Point, yes. 14 Q: And did he say anything else? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And what did you think about that? 17 A: Well, I was sitting there eating my 18 supper and I grabbed my supper and I told Roseanne I'm 19 going down there and I got in the truck and headed that 20 way while -- while eating my supper because I was, you 21 know, worried about what might happen down there will all 22 the police heading that way. You know, I -- I didn't 23 know what to expect. 24 My sister was down in that area and I told 25 her to be careful and I didn't know what was being --
2091 taking place. For all I knew, that she was the one that 2 might be getting hurt or arrested at that time, so I went 3 to see what was going on. 4 My brother, Stacey, was down there at that 5 time and, you know, I was thinking, you know, maybe he's 6 involved in something. 7 Q: And when had you -- you said that you 8 told them -- your sister to be careful. When had you 9 told her to be careful? 10 A: When we were living in the built-up 11 area. 12 Q: Okay. And, excuse me... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And you went with -- did you go with 18 anyone? I think you said earlier that -- 19 A: Roseanne and one (1) of my friends, 20 Kevin Thomas. 21 Q: And Mr. Kevin Thomas you picked up 22 along the way? 23 A: Yes, he was walking along the road on 24 Kettle Point. 25 Q: And the checkpoint -- the checkpoints
2101 that you stopped at -- were stopped at on Army Camp Road, 2 can you describe the uniforms that the police officers 3 were wearing? 4 A: Some of them had on the bluish 5 standard uniforms and some of them were dressed in a -- a 6 -- grey uniforms, but I didn't see any, like, longer 7 guns. Maybe they didn't -- I didn't see any of that. 8 Q: They just simply had a different 9 colour -- 10 A: Some of them -- 11 Q: -- uniform. 12 A: Yes. Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And how did the police 14 officers appear to you? 15 A: They seemed very tense -- real 16 serious. They weren't -- they weren't, like, How are you 17 doing? I've been pulled over many times by officers all 18 across, you know, this country and that -- that -- that - 19 - when I got stopped down there, that was really tense. 20 Q: And -- and when you say it was, 21 "tense," can you -- 22 A: The look on their faces, like, a real 23 serious look where there was no smiling or nothing. It 24 was, you know, you could just tell there was a lot of 25 pressure and -- down in that area.
2111 Q: Okay. And were -- were the police 2 officers at the first checkpoint closer to Army Camp -- 3 closer to Highway 21? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Were they the same? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when you got to the Park, area of 8 the Park, what did you do? Did you -- 9 A: I pulled up -- 10 Q: -- Where did you go? Did you stop? 11 A: I stopped right along on the outside 12 of the fence there. 13 Q: In the sand -- we've been calling it 14 the sandy parking lot that's -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- runs north from the intersection 17 of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road towards the 18 lake. 19 A: Yes, that's where I stopped. 20 Q: Okay. And you stopped and what were 21 you driving that night? 22 A: I -- at that time I had a -- a Chevy 23 pickup truck. 24 Q: And what colour was it? 25 A: Blue.
2121 Q: Blue? And was it a half ton? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so you stopped. Did you get out 4 of your vehicle? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And where did you go? 7 A: I walked up to the fence line and I 8 was kind of concerned about where my sister was and my 9 brother and I was kind of concerned about, you know, 10 everybody else that was in there. 11 Q: Yes? Did you speak to your -- who 12 did you speak to, if anyone? 13 A: Well, I looked around to see where my 14 sister was right away and there was some people there I 15 really didn't know. Others I knew and some of them I -- 16 I really didn't know who they were. 17 Q: And did you speak to your brother, 18 Stacey? 19 A: I -- I believe I might have, yes. I 20 was getting kind of, well, tensed up watching what was 21 going on on the outside. I was pretty nervous myself, 22 watching, looking at all the cruisers on the outside of 23 the area. 24 Q: And did you tell the people inside 25 the Park? Did you go inside, or just speak to the people
2131 on the -- 2 A: No, I -- I just stood along the fence 3 line there. 4 Q: And did you speak to Mr. Roderick 5 George? 6 A: I was talking to a few people in 7 there, I'm not positive right now, that was -- that was a 8 few years ago but I know I talked to a few people along 9 the fence there and -- and let them know that there was a 10 build-up of police all around the area, bigger than 11 ususal. 12 Q: Yes...? 13 A: And I just told them to be careful, I 14 said because I don't know, got a funny feeling here. 15 Q: And did you have -- did you ask the 16 occupiers of the Park if they needed anything? 17 A: Yes, I -- well, I -- that was part of 18 why I went down there to see, you know, if they needed 19 any -- anything, you know, reassurance, you know, let 20 them know that we're -- we're still there with them. And 21 I was -- I always had that intent with me, that, you 22 know, I would always -- always going to be there for 23 them. 24 All along through the years I was always, 25 you know, trying to be there and -- and support, to give
2141 them -- be there, they were my friends, and family was 2 there and, I mean, I had some concern too. 3 Q: And did you -- do you recall a 4 discussion with Mr. -- firstly, do you know Mr. Wesley 5 George? 6 A: Wesley...? I believe that's Elwood - 7 - Elwood's son. 8 Q: Yes...? And -- 9 A: Oh, like, all those -- my son grew up 10 with a -- with a younger generation, younger guys and I 11 don't really know a lot of the -- the younger guys 12 around. To this day I still don't know some of them 13 because I really never communicate with them. 14 Q: But back in 1994, Wesley would have 15 been, I think, thirteen (13) or fourteen (14) and -- 16 A: Yes, I -- I think he came to my house 17 quite a few times. 18 Q: And did you have a discussion when 19 you went down to the Park, with Wesley George, do you 20 recall? 21 A: No, no. No, I don't recall that. 22 Q: And did you ask anyone when you were 23 down there, whether you should bring in guns to the Park? 24 A: No, I didn't. Definitely not. 25 Q: And do you -- did you have a
2151 discussion or recall a discussion with Mr. Isaac Buck 2 Doxtator when the first time you went to the Park? 3 A: I may have talked to him, but I -- 4 all I went there was to ask them if they needed any help, 5 you know, to -- to have -- if they had any kind of 6 communication, you know, to talk to each other from -- 7 from the barracks to down there, you know, communicate 8 with each other, and they said no. 9 Q: And did Mr. Isaac Doxtator speak to 10 you about guns when you were there? 11 A: I don't recall that, no. 12 Q: And did you see anyone with guns in 13 the Park when you were at the fence line? 14 A: Definitely not. 15 Q: And how many people did you see 16 inside the fence line in the Park? 17 A: There wasn't -- there wasn't too many 18 there, when I went there, maybe fifteen (15), twenty 19 (20). There -- there wasn't a whole lot of people in 20 that area. The younger -- younger guys, I seen some 21 of the younger guys and some women and a couple of guys I 22 didn't really know who they were, when I went to them, 23 because their backs were kind of turned to me. 24 Q: And when you say there were women 25 there, how many women did you see? Your sister, did you
2161 -- was your sister Gina -- 2 A: She was the first one I was looking 3 for. 4 Q: And did you see her there inside the 5 Park? 6 A: No, I didn't really see her at the 7 time. I -- trying to think back if I actually talked to 8 her. I may have. I told her to be careful if I did. 9 Q: And how long did you spend down at 10 the Park at this time, Mr. George? 11 A: Five (5), maybe ten (10) minutes? 12 Q: And the -- were there -- when you 13 arrived at the Park, were there any of the occupiers 14 outside the Park in the sandy parking lot? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And the -- was it dark or getting 17 dark or still light when you went the first time? 18 A: What was that question? 19 Q: Was it -- what was the lighting like 20 when you arrived? Was the -- had the sun set or was it-- 21 A: No, it was -- there was still 22 daylight. 23 Q: And so you said you were eating 24 supper, so it would have been shortly after six o'clock? 25 A: It was -- yeah, it was after 6:00
2171 'cause I usually ate supper around 6:00, 7:00. 2 Q: Okay. And the -- could you observe 3 whether there were any bonfires inside the Park? 4 A: Outside the Park? 5 Q: Inside the Park. 6 A: I think there was a small one going 7 just inside the gate there. 8 Q: By the turnstile? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the -- what was the mood of the 11 people that you were -- you spoke to? 12 A: Very tense, nervous. 13 Q: Okay. And did -- what did you do 14 after this discussion? 15 A: Well I mentioned there I give one of 16 the women a ride home -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- told her there was a lot of police 19 around the area and I didn't know what to expect. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: I gave -- gave her a ride back to 22 Kettle Point. 23 Q: And was that Mandy Cloud? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And why did Mandy Cloud leave?
2181 A: Maybe she was afraid that the cops 2 were going to come in there and attempt something, I 3 don't know. I told her, I says, be careful if you're 4 going to stay here. I said I'm going to Kettle Point; if 5 you want a ride, I'll give you a ride. 6 Q: And so -- and what -- what was you're 7 --the reaction of your wife Roseanne to... 8 A: Pardon? 9 Q: What -- and what was the reaction of 10 your wife, Roseanne to what was going on? 11 A: She was very nervous. She wanted to 12 leave the area. 13 Q: And so you went back to Kettle Point 14 with your wife and -- and Mandy Cloud? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what about Mr. Kevin Thomas, what 17 happened to him? 18 A: He stayed down there. 19 Q: Stayed? So what did -- when you got 20 back to Kettle Point, what did you do? 21 A: Well, I -- I dug around and looked 22 for my walkie-talkies and I proceeded back down there 23 again after I got them working. 24 Q: And when you went back to Kettle 25 Point, did you go back along Army Camp Road or did you
2191 go -- 2 A: No, I went -- 3 Q: -- East Parkway? 4 A: When we left there, we went down 5 there the East Parkway and we were stopped at another 6 police check there and -- 7 Q: And where was -- 8 A: -- at that -- 9 Q: Where was that checkpoint, Mr. 10 George? 11 A: That'd be about a quarter (1/4) to a 12 half (1/2) mile west of the lands down there. 13 Q: And are you familiar with the 14 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot on East Parkway 15 Drive? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And where, in relation to that 18 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot was the 19 checkpoint? 20 A: It was right at the beginning when 21 you come down there to park, kind of opens up that little 22 parking lot there, it kind of opens up there and I 23 noticed there was a lot more police vehicles in that 24 area, and their uniforms were changed from the standard 25 to a grey-ish colour and I noticed that there was
2201 officers carrying around rifles. 2 Q: And what kind of -- can you describe 3 the rifles? They long rifles, short rifles? 4 A: They were shorter rifle, similar to a 5 M-16. I'm not really positive on what kind of guns they 6 had. I didn't -- I just looked over and I seen them 7 standing there with these rifles in their hands. 8 Q: And what -- 9 A: And told us to leave the area. 10 Q: These were officers at the 11 checkpoint? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was the checkpoint on the east or 14 the west side of the Ministry of Natural Resources 15 parking lot? 16 A: It was on -- it would be on the east 17 side of that parking lot. 18 Q: Okay. Between the parking lot and 19 the -- and the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what did you -- did you observe 22 anything inside the parking -- the Ministry of Natural 23 Resources' parking lot as you drove past it? 24 A: I just noticed there was a larger 25 amount of vehicles in that area --
2211 Q: Did you -- 2 A: -- when I was leaving. More than I'd 3 seen anywhere else. 4 Q: And when you say -- can you give us a 5 ballpark as -- do you know how many there were? 6 A: Ten (10) or twelve (12). Maybe ten 7 (10) or twelve (12) cruisers and a lot of police -- I -- 8 I didn't really count them. They were -- when I got 9 stopped there were two (2) or three (3) on side of the 10 truck and there was three (3) or four (4) on the other 11 side of the truck and these guys weren't smiling or 12 nothing. They were looking very serious. 13 Q: And so you went East Parkway -- how 14 far along East Parkway -- after you left that checkpoint, 15 how did you proceed back to Kettle Point? 16 A: There's a little -- there's roadways 17 all along Ipperwash there, I just -- it runs parallel 18 with the lake. I just followed them ones up to -- until 19 you get up to Kettle Point. 20 Q: And did you encounter any other 21 roadblocks along your way? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And so you got back to your home and 24 you gathered the walkie talk radios? 25 A: Yes.
2221 Q: And how many radios did you gather 2 up? 3 A: Two (2). 4 Q: Two (2)? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you have a scanner, a police 7 scanner? 8 A: Yes, I had one. It was legal to buy 9 them out of any Radio Shack or any store back in those 10 days. 11 Q: And did -- did you pick up -- did you 12 have a scanner at that time that you took back with you 13 to the Park? 14 A: I'm trying to recall if I did take it 15 -- I believe I had it in the trunk when I went down 16 there. I'm trying to remember if I carried it on my 17 person later on. I -- I know I had the two (2) radios 18 but I can't recall the scanner. 19 Q: And would the two (2) radios pick up 20 communications between -- from other radios? 21 A: If you were close enough, yes. 22 Q: If you're close enough? And what 23 about the scanner? How did the police scanner work? 24 A: It was -- they only had that type 25 back in -- in the 90's. You could buy a crystal from any
2231 store, Radio Shack or anywhere and it would pick up 2 police frequencies, ambulance, fire, air. 3 Q: And so that was the type -- 4 A: It would pick up some, yes and not 5 all. 6 Q: So did you have -- when you went -- 7 proceeded to go back to Kettle Point, did you have a 8 scanner and the two (2) walkie talkie radios, or just the 9 two (2) walkie talkie radios? 10 A: I may have had both. 11 Q: Both? 12 A: Walkie talkies and -- and the 13 scanner. 14 Q: And the -- how long did you remain at 15 Kettle Point? 16 A: Long enough to find some batteries 17 and try and get the radios working. I was not very long, 18 fifteen (15) minutes. 19 Q: Okay. Then what did you do? 20 A: Then I -- my wife she was very 21 hesitant about going back down there and she said I -- I 22 don't think I should be going back down there and I -- I 23 told her that Gina was there. We worried about Gina so I 24 told her, I said, if you don't drive me down there I'll 25 drive myself.
2241 Q: And why were you asking for your wife 2 to drive you as opposed to driving yourself? 3 A: I go everywhere with her. She's my - 4 - she's my best companion I have. 5 Q: Okay. So that you wanted your wife 6 to drive you back, and the -- did anyone else go with 7 you? Did you bring -- 8 A: One of my brothers. 9 Q: Was that your brother Jeremiah? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: He's one of my younger brothers. 13 Q: And how did you proceed, what route 14 did you follow to go back to the Park. 15 A: We took almost the exact route back 16 that we went to Kettle Point, in the first time, -- 17 Q: So you went -- 18 A: -- just drove along down along the 19 beach, and then -- 20 Q: Yes, along the roads parallel to the 21 beach? 22 A: Yes, and then back up to East Parkway 23 Drive, I guess it's referred to as. 24 Q: And East Parkway Drive ends at the 25 road that runs south to Ravenswood?
2251 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And, so you went to East 3 Parkway Drive at the -- the road that leads down to 4 Ravenswood, and did you proceed east along East Parkway 5 Drive? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what happened? 8 A: When we got -- shortly when we come 9 off of, I guess it's Ravenswood Road, I noticed there was 10 a lot of lights flashing up in that same area that -- 11 that -- the little parking lot area, where the -- the 12 last checkpoint was at when we left. 13 And, I can't remember exactly if we were 14 stopped at another spot-check before we even got to that 15 Park. I kind of think that we -- we were denied access 16 to that area, to go through, and they asked us where we 17 were going and we said we were going to the Park to see 18 them. I believe that's what we told them. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And we were denied access. 21 Q: And how many police officers did you 22 observe at the point where you were at on East Parkway 23 Drive when they stopped you? 24 A: A lot of them. 25 Q: When you say a lot, can you tell me
2261 how many? 2 A: I couldn't count them. 3 Q: Couldn't count...? And how were 4 these police officers who stopped you, dressed? 5 A: The same way when we left the first 6 time, they were carrying firearms along. There was some 7 had a lot longer firearms and some of them didn't. 8 Q: And can you describe their uniforms, 9 what colour they were? 10 A: Greyish. 11 Q: Greyish...? And did they have 12 padding or bullet-proof vests on? 13 A: No, I -- I can't recall exactly what 14 they were wearing. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But they were -- we were denied, so 17 Roseanne backed up and, away from the area down there and 18 I told Jeremiah, come on, let's go, we need -- we need to 19 go down there and take these radios. 20 Q: So your wife backed up to Ravenswood 21 Road...? 22 A: She backed up but we got off the 23 truck before then. 24 Q: Oh, I see. And what did you then do? 25 A: We just walked up along through the
2271 cottages, -- 2 Q: Up to the -- 3 A: -- along over the -- through the 4 cottages right on to the beach front. 5 Q: And proceeded to walk east on the 6 beach to the -- towards the Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps that would be 9 a good time to stop today, sir, because it's five to -- 10 approximately five to five, and we're just going to get 11 to the -- back to the Park for the second time. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. Thank you very much. We start again tomorrow 14 morning at ten o'clock. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At ten o'clock. So 16 you have to come back again tomorrow, Mr. George. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 Adjourned now until tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. 21 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 22 Public Inquiry is adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, 23 December 7th, at 10:00 a.m. 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 4:55 p.m.
2281 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 ________________________ 9 Dustin Warnock 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25