11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 2nd, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 24 Lynette D'Souza ) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) (np) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 79 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 132 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 149 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 152 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 190 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 207 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-104 Copy of Exhibit 21 from 44 4 the Kenneth Dean trial. 5 P-105-A Two (2) Photographs of peace tree 86 6 planting and graveyard inside 7 Military Base. 8 P-105-B Two (2) Photographs of Peace Tree 91 9 planting and of Melva George at 10 graveyard inside Military Base. 11 P-105-C Two (2) Photographs of a chair 93 12 and crowd of people behind a car. 13 P-105- D Photograph entitled, "Stoney Point 95 14 Press Conference 1993 Shortly after 15 Helicopter Incident". 16 P-106 The Free Press news article entitled 116 17 "Chief Says Council Deserve To Know 18 Burial Remains Found". 19 P-107 News article entitled, "History Of 116 20 The Aboriginal Peoples Shouldn't Be 21 Desecrated". 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon convening at 9:07 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is now in 4 session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden presiding. Please 5 be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 9 10 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed 11 12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Mr. Simon, at the end of the day, 14 yesterday, we were talking about when Mr. Cecil Bernard 15 George arrived and had brought with him the scanners, you 16 listened to the scanners and you told us what you could 17 recall about what you heard over the scanners and what you 18 did. 19 Now, can you tell us what happened after that? 20 After Mr. Cecil Bernard George brought the scanners, you 21 listened to the scanners, you've told us you looked around to 22 see if you could see people on roofs; what happened next? 23 A: I'm not too sure if it was after or 24 before, I remember there was something that had happened with 25 an incident with a -- it wasn't really an incident, but there
81 was a Suburban had been spotted. There was that main gate 2 that we were talking about earlier where the campers had come 3 into the -- the Park -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- we had our checkpoint there. Later, 6 this Dave -- Dave George -- 7 Q: Yeah? 8 A: -- was one (1) of the people that was 9 there that I'd seen at that point when I'd gone there and 10 they'd spotted this unmarked Suburban-type vehicle. And 11 there was people that had apparently gotten out of there and 12 gone into the bushes out by the A-frame building that we had 13 talked about before. 14 We had gone over and we had searched the area 15 kind of quickly, we never went over a fence or anything, just 16 alongside the road and we had noticed some boot tracks that 17 were fairly large. It appeared to me to be a military-type 18 track, but there was stuff like that had been happening where 19 people were basically seeing things that were kind of odd. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: Like I said, I wasn't too sure if that 22 was before or after Slippery had given those CBs -- 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: -- or scanners. After that we had gone 25 back -- I'd gone back to where -- in front of the Park store
91 where we had the main -- main fire. 2 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you for a moment. 3 When you -- the Suburban that you saw -- I believe the 4 evidence of Mr. David George was that the -- he saw the -- a 5 vehicle on East Parkway Drive and people get out and go into 6 the -- the lot on the southwest corner of the intersection as 7 shown in Exhibit 103 that's behind you. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: It's your recollection, you thought they 10 were on Army Camp Road? 11 A: Yeah, it could have been a different 12 incident. Like I say, I'm -- I'm not too sure. Maybe it was 13 the day before or -- I'm not really positive. I just thought 14 I better mention that because I did... 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But going back to -- like you said, after 17 Slippery had been there with the scanners, he had gone 18 further down East Parkway Drive after that point -- 19 Q: Okay. Let's just -- he brought the 20 scanners. The -- you were all inside the fence in the Park? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And at this point there was a fire in 23 front of the Park store or was it closer to the fence line? 24 A: It was closer to the fence. 25 Q: And can you tell us on Exhibit 103 behind
101 you where the fire was located? 2 A: I would say it was pretty much between 3 where it's marked, "gate" and "turnstile". 4 Q: Yeah? 5 A: Right along the fence. 6 Q: Perhaps you could take one (1) of those 7 black -- the black marker and mark on Exhibit 103 a circle 8 and a one (1) where the fire was. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And at this point in time, was it dark or 14 still light? 15 A: It may have been -- it was dark by that 16 time. 17 Q: And can you describe this fire? Was it a 18 small fire, a big fire, a medium fire? 19 A: It was fairly large. 20 Q: And what was -- can you recall what was 21 on the fire; what was being used to feed it? 22 A: For the most part, we had been using some 23 of the -- that slab wood that they had at the Park store. 24 It's what they sold to the campers for -- for campfires and 25 that.
111 Q: Yes.? 2 A: Could have been a couple of picnic 3 tables. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I remember some of those older picnic 6 tables had been -- some had been broken up. Others, after a 7 while, they were getting tossed on. I'm not too sure if the 8 fire had gotten that large at that point or if it was 9 afterwards. 10 Q: At some point, were picnic tables put on 11 the fire? 12 A: Yeah, some point. It could have been the 13 day after, even. I'm not sure. 14 Q: And were there any fires that you recall 15 on the evening of September 6th? 16 A: Not right in that immediate area, no. 17 Q: Was there any other fires along the fence 18 line north of -- towards the lake that you recall? 19 A: Not that I recall, no. 20 Q: Yeah. And was the -- what was the 21 lighting like other than the fire? Was -- were the lights on 22 in the Park store or -- 23 A: No. I don't think so. If there was 24 lights from the store it would have been just coming from the 25 inside, so it wouldn't have really made a difference or --
121 lighting over by the fence. 2 Q: Okay. And but -- would -- were there any 3 other lights that you observed at this point in the evening? 4 A: Not really, no. Maybe car lights -- a 5 spotlight or whatever. Other than that -- 6 Q: So, what did Mr. Cecil Bernard George do? 7 A: After we turned on the scanners and did 8 the search around he had gone down East Parkway Drive. There 9 was a -- I'm not too sure who else had gone with him, maybe 10 -- maybe his brothers; I'm not too sure who. 11 Q: But somebody went with him? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: Could have been two (2) or three (3), I'm 15 not too sure, but they had gone down. And we had noticed as 16 he was coming back you could see the, basically, outline of 17 somebody coming down the road. He'd step off to the side of 18 the road and have a -- I guess he was having a look to see 19 what was happening. And as we got closer you could hear him 20 tell us that the police are coming; they were marching down 21 the road. 22 Once he'd gotten to the one (1) point, I 23 guess, right to the intersection, basically, of Army Camp 24 Road and East Parkway Drive, it's -- and he told us, They're 25 right there, light them up.
131 Somebody had a spotlight and shone it and as 2 soon as could -- the spotlight was shone on the -- on the 3 police, he could see them. They were -- they weren't too far 4 at all, they were, maybe -- maybe one (1) driveway down East 5 Parkway Drive, if that. 6 Q: Okay. And when Mr. Cecil Bernard George 7 went down the East Parkway Drive was he carrying anything 8 with him? 9 A: I thought he had -- had a walkie-talkie 10 with him and a walking stick. 11 Q: Okay. And when Cecil Bernard George went 12 down East Parkway Drive, where were you? 13 A: I would have been inside the Park, around 14 by that fire. 15 Q: And the -- were there other people 16 outside in the sandy parking lot? 17 A: There could have been, not too many, 18 though. 19 Q: Okay. And at this point in time, how 20 many people do you recall being in the Park or just outside 21 the Park? How many -- how large was your group? 22 A: Maybe about two (2) dozen at that time. 23 Q: Okay. Then the police -- where were the 24 police when you first saw them? By the -- by that first park 25 -- driveway on -- along East Parkway Drive?
141 A: Somewheres in that area. 2 Q: And the first driveway you're referring 3 to is, I think it's -- sixty-eight forty-two (6842) -- is the 4 number on that driveway? 5 A: Yeah. Somewhere -- maybe even just a 6 little before that. I'm not too sure. 7 Q: And when you first observed the police 8 officers, can you tell us what you saw? 9 A: They were basically shoulder to shoulder 10 straight across the road and few people deep. They were 11 marching. 12 Q: And how were they dressed? 13 A: They were in a full riot -- riot gear. 14 They had their shields and their shields were touching each 15 other as they're -- so it was like a solid line. You could 16 see the reflections off the -- like the plexiglass, off their 17 face shields off their helmets. 18 Q: So they had helmets and face shields. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And they had shields. Did you see them 21 carrying anything? 22 A: Once they got closer they -- they had 23 their batons and they were using those to beat on their 24 shields. 25 Q: Okay. And can you describe the -- the
151 uniform? 2 A: Looked pretty bulky. I was reading in 3 the papers afterwards it must have been because of all the 4 padding and they must have had the shin guards and all that 5 sort of stuff. But it was basically all black. 6 Q: Did you -- so you couldn't -- they looked 7 bulky but you didn't observe whether they had the shin pads 8 or... 9 A: Not -- no, really, no. 10 Q: So, they -- you observed the police 11 officers on East Parkway Drive. What did the police officers 12 do? 13 A: Once they got into the -- like the 14 parking lot area there, they heard a -- Slippery was 15 basically holding up his hand -- arm to them, telling them to 16 stop and they didn't have to do this and stuff along those 17 lines. That we had a right to be there and stuff like that. 18 As soon as the police had come up to where his 19 position was on the -- coming into the parking lot that's 20 when I seen them -- basically as soon as they got to him they 21 just -- seen a club go up and they clubbed him, he went down 22 and just heard them yell, Punch out, or something like that. 23 They had spread out and basically moved right 24 over, run right over him. So he was behind their police 25 lines and they -- they come up to the fence line.
161 Q: Mr. Simon, before we go on, we've heard 2 from others that the police came into the sandy parking lot, 3 spread out and came up to the fence line or close to the 4 fence line prior to the incident between Mr. Cecil Bernard 5 George and the police. 6 A: It could have happened that way, but my 7 recollect -- my recollection is that they had clubbed him as 8 soon as they come -- come up there. Everything happened so 9 fast. I know that I was -- there was -- that was like the 10 first of the altercation and the fighting that I had seen. 11 I'm sure. I was pretty sure that they had 12 clubbed him before they got to the fence. 13 Q: And the -- so on your recollection, can 14 you point out on Exhibit 103, where Mr. Cecil Bernard George 15 was when you first saw him and the police, when the police 16 grabbed Cecil Bernard George? 17 A: Put a mark on there? 18 Q: Yes, please. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Somewhere in that area. I'm not really 23 entirely sure. It was right on the edge of the -- the 24 pavement. 25 Q: Okay. And could you mark a number 2 on
171 that, please. 2 A: Two (2)? It's not going to... 3 Q: And when they -- how many spotlights were 4 turned on the police from inside the Park? 5 A: I'm not too sure. I thought it was just 6 one (1) but there could have been more. 7 Q: Could have been more? And when the 8 police arrived in the sandy parking lot, did -- what happened 9 to the other people that were outside the sand -- on the 10 sandy parking lot? Did they come back into the Park -- go 11 back into the Park? 12 A: There had been a bit of scuffling there. 13 People -- the ones that were outside -- I may have been out 14 there too, I really don't remember. But there had been a bit 15 of altercation there; people were getting clubbed and 16 swinging back, fighting with the police. 17 As Slippery was getting clubbed there -- 18 didn't really realize that he was getting beaten at that 19 point but people had gone back into the Park. Once we were 20 back in the Park, everybody kind of spread back out along the 21 -- the fence line there and we could have a -- I guess, 22 basically, like a headcount and look around and see if we 23 noticed anybody missing. 24 And we could see those groups -- groups of 25 police officers out on the -- in that area where they'd run
181 into Cecil. They were still in that same area and you could 2 see that they had formed a circle around him and I was sure 3 that there was two (2) others that were getting beaten in the 4 same -- same manner. 5 Q: Pardon me? There were two (2) others 6 that were being beaten -- 7 A: I'd seen three (3) groups of police 8 officers out there and it looked like there was -- Cecil, he 9 -- he was the one that was closest and you could see for 10 sure. I don't know if there was, like, the spotlight on him. 11 There was some -- there was something there, you could see a 12 bit better and you could see him on the ground and the people 13 that were around him. You could see the clubs going up in 14 the air. 15 Q: And -- so that when this happened with 16 Cecil Bernard George, when Cecil Bernard George was first in 17 contact with the police officers, what did he have in his 18 hand? 19 A: I was pretty sure he was still carrying 20 that walking stick and the walkie-talkie. 21 Q: And -- so that the -- as you recall it, 22 the police came into the parking lot, encountered Cecil 23 Bernard George at the -- just at the edge of the parking lot 24 and grabbed Cecil Bernard George at that point? 25 A: Yeah, they -- they had run -- basically
191 ran over him right off the start. It could have been a 2 little bit closer to the -- the fence line than what I drew 3 on that map, but it was out a ways from the fence line where 4 we were. 5 Q: As I anticipate the evidence of Cecil 6 Bernard George will be, Mr. Simon, that the police officers 7 came into the sandy parking lot -- spread out on the sandy 8 parking lot -- Mr. Cecil Bernard George and others went back 9 into the Park, the police came up close to the fence, fell 10 back -- fell back to the other side of the sandy parking lot 11 and then it was after that that Cecil Bernard George went out 12 into the sandy parking lot from the -- inside the Park. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And that's -- 17 A: It may have happened like that, like you 18 said. I do remember, like you said, that they had spread 19 out. It has been a long -- long time. 20 Q: No -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- I appreciate that and I'm just -- why 23 I'm trying to point out to you what others have said and what 24 I anticipate Mr. Cecil Bernard George will testify because it 25 has been a long time --
201 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- and it happened very quickly. I 3 appreciate that. 4 A: I don't know what to say. I -- it very 5 well could have. I know for a fact that there wasn't no 6 altercation before that point where they had run over Cecil 7 Bernard. 8 Q: So, that -- the first altercation, 9 whatever the sequence of events was, was not until after the 10 police and -- and Cecil Bernard George had met each other out 11 in the sandy parking lot; is that correct? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And then Cecil Bernard George was, as you 14 say, grabbed by the police officers and you heard the -- 15 someone yell, Punch out; was that before or after the -- they 16 encountered Cecil Bernard George? 17 A: It would have been before, because they 18 had spread out in -- in their formation and basically made, 19 like, a charge to -- towards everybody else. There was a lot 20 of people that were out -- outside of the Park. 21 Slippery, he had been further out, basically 22 trying to put his hand up and tell them to stop. There was a 23 bit of a scuffle, like you said, and a lot of people went 24 back into the Park, myself included, and we were making a 25 dash through that turnstile. I remember that.
211 Q: So, then from your recollection, after 2 the encounter between Cecil Bernard George and the police, 3 what did you observe happened with Cecil Bernard George? 4 A: He was basically just laying on the 5 ground getting clubbed. 6 Q: And how do you know if he was being 7 clubbed, Mr. Simon? 8 A: You could see the clubs going up over the 9 police officers' heads and going down into -- disappearing 10 into the circle and -- 11 Q: And how many -- 12 A: -- a lot of movement. 13 Q: How many police officers did you observe, 14 Mr. Simon? 15 A: More than half a dozen. 16 Q: And were the -- you said a minute -- a 17 few minutes ago that there were three (3) groups of police 18 officers that you observed? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And where were the -- can you tell us, 21 firstly on -- point out on Exhibit 103, where the police 22 officers were clubbing -- you thought -- Cecil Bernard 23 George? 24 A: It was basically where I got the number 25 two (2) there and that's where the other groups -- they were
221 all kind of a big area that -- that part of the sandy parking 2 lot. 3 Q: So, the police -- 4 A: May -- maybe even a little bit closer to 5 the Park, like I said before. 6 Q: So, that the police officers were spread 7 out in the entrance -- the western side of the sandy parking 8 lot on the eastern side of the pavement or -- and on the 9 pavement? 10 A: They were spread out. The ones that were 11 with the shields and the clubs, they were spread out closer 12 and those groups where Slippery and those others were being 13 beaten was in behind where the police had spread out. 14 Q: Okay. Let's -- let's take this one (1) 15 step at a time. The police officers with the shields -- 16 where -- can you draw on Exhibit 103, a line where the police 17 officers with the shields were, please? 18 A: At the time that Slippery was being 19 beaten? 20 Q: At the time Slippery was being beaten. 21 A: I would say they were all, basically, 22 around -- 23 Q: Now, we have to -- when you're back 24 there, Mr. Simon, I forgot to ask you to pick up that 25 microphone there.
231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Microphone is on 2 on the table there. 3 THE WITNESS: That's basically all you 4 wanted, was just a line there -- drawn there -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: -- where the police were? 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And -- and that's the police with the 10 shields? 11 A: Yeah. They were in that line and spread 12 out along there. 13 Q: And could you put a number 3 on -- around 14 that. And you observed the police in a line at the area of 15 where you've marked number 3 and the -- these were the police 16 officers with shields? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And the police officers that you observed 19 back near where you put number two (2), were they dressed -- 20 they were dressed differently than the police officers with 21 the shields or were they? 22 A: They -- it was hard to tell. They all 23 looked the same, but they didn't have the shields, but they 24 had the -- they had their clubs going. You could see those 25 pretty clearly.
241 Q: So, the -- did they have helmets on, the 2 police officers that were around Cecil Bernard George? 3 A: I couldn't really tell. 4 Q: So, you're back in the Park and the -- 5 what did you then do? You said that you were -- 6 A: As we were witnessing -- 7 Q: -- trying to figure out who was -- who 8 was present? 9 A: Yeah, we were -- we had witnesses. It 10 was three (3) groups and people were kind of doing a 11 headcount and we noticed -- we had heard some people saying 12 that that was Slippery out there. And I remember one (1) 13 lady, Gina Johnson, she was yelling that that was her -- her 14 brother out there. 15 And there was just a few seconds, I guess, had 16 passed and she'd started basically yelling that -- that her 17 -- that was her brother, You got to do something, they're -- 18 they're going to kill him. By the looks of what was 19 happening there, it was pretty violent in the way they were 20 clubbing him. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Actually, now I'm getting into that, I'm 23 starting to realize that you are correct, that there was a 24 couple of exchanges that they did spread out into their line. 25 Q: That's fine, I think. So, as you --
251 A: But as -- as we had seen Slippery out 2 there and we realized that that was him, that's -- that's 3 when the call to the bus had taken place. People had gone 4 out before that, like I said and there was quite a few people 5 had received quite a few injuries -- clubs. 6 Actually there was quite a bit and I'm 7 starting to remember now, if -- if you'd allow me to go back 8 a bit? 9 Q: Certainly. 10 A: What you had mentioned there about how 11 the police had spread out and come up to the fence, and is 12 right. I remember I was standing beside David George and he 13 had received a number of blows too, at some point along 14 there. 15 That may have been at the same as when 16 Slippery was runned over like that, at the start of his 17 beating. But there was a lot of people that were already 18 injured, as we had been doing that head count and wondering 19 what was going on. 20 And we heard that call from Gina saying that 21 we had to do something and people are already, basically beat 22 up quite a bit and we didn't really know what to do. 23 Q: Okay. Before we go on, Mr. Simon, you 24 said that the people were beat up quite a bit, that there had 25 been an altercation.
261 The -- do you now recall, as you said, that 2 the police came up close to the fence before Cecil Bernard 3 George had an altercation with them? 4 A: They had -- they had spread out in their 5 line, and made a move. But like I said, that was the first, 6 the start of the altercation in my -- of what I witnessed was 7 when Slippery had been run over. 8 Q: Did -- did Mr. Cecil Bernard George go 9 out into the parking lot from the Park when he was -- does 10 that assist you? 11 A: He very well could have. I -- it's -- it 12 is really blurry what happened there. 13 Q: No, I appreciate that and we're simply 14 asking you to try to remember things as you go along and 15 sometimes things will help refresh your memory. 16 But, the -- the first altercation with the 17 police, in you recollection, was after they had grabbed Cecil 18 Bernard George? 19 A: Yeah, pretty much. What happened before 20 is really quite a blur. I don't -- I don't really recall 21 hearing those RCs and so basically, it isn't really helping. 22 Q: Okay. So that, and when you say that 23 people got clubbed, I take it then that members of the group 24 were out when -- were out in the sandy parking lot -- 25 A: Yeah.
271 Q: -- and got into an altercation with the 2 police officers? 3 A: Yeah. The ones with the -- the shields 4 and the clubs had made it past -- come past Slippery, there 5 was others that had been clubbed. 6 Like I said, I was standing beside Dave George 7 and he had taken a step forward, being the taller guy, a lot 8 taller than me, and maybe I was a lot closer to the police 9 and, I had witnessed him take a number of blows from 10 different directions. 11 Q: And was David George out in the sandy 12 parking lot at this time? 13 A: Yeah, I believe so. 14 Q: And so -- and did David George have a 15 stick or a club in his hand? 16 A: Something, some sort of stick. 17 Q: And was he engaging the police officers? 18 Was he hitting at the police officers? 19 A: He had tried but he never -- he never 20 even, from what I seen, he never got the chance, he -- he 21 would raise his arm like he was going to, step and he got hit 22 from all directions -- 23 Q: And that -- 24 A: -- and he stepped back beside and I 25 looked at him and I looked at what we were -- what was facing
281 us. I had -- I had two (2) pieces of firewood, some of the 2 smaller, that slab wood I had mentioned earlier, I had those 3 in my hand and realized they weren't going to do too much. 4 Basically I just threw them at the police. 5 The ones that were in front of me, the first one I'd seen it 6 made contact with the helmet and that officer stumbled back. 7 They had basically closed the gap right back up so I threw 8 the other one. And that's when we basically made the retreat 9 back into the fence -- or through that turnstile back into 10 the Park. 11 Q: And did people -- were people throwing 12 rocks from the fence line at the police officers or stones; 13 do you recall? 14 A: Could have been. 15 Q: And it was then that Cecil Bernard 16 George's sister Gina Johnson, called out, That's my brother. 17 A: Yeah. Once everybody had been back into 18 the Park we were take -- we were witnessing that beating 19 going on and she was the one that had realized that that was 20 her brother. A lot of us didn't know what to do. We already 21 seen what they -- what we were up against so we heard -- we 22 heard somebody yell, Get the bus. 23 And we heard the bus, it was just a matter of 24 seconds and it fired up, it was fairly loud even with all the 25 commotion and a lot of yelling going on. Seen the bus come
291 up and there was a dumpster in the way and the bus being the 2 size of it they didn't really have too much of a problem 3 pushing it out of the way. It kind of pushed it off to the 4 side. 5 Q: Can you point out on Exhibit 103 where 6 the dumpster was and perhaps mark a square where the dumpster 7 was, Mr. Simon, and put the number four (4) beside it? 8 A: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I'm not really too sure if it was in -- 13 inside the fence or not. I know it was right, it was like 14 right in this area. 15 Q: Could you put a number 4 beside -- 16 A: Oh yeah. 17 Q: So, that -- 18 A: It could have been inside the gate too, 19 I'm not too sure. But it got pushed to that side. 20 Q: It was either on the outside or the 21 inside and it got pushed out of the way? 22 A: Yeah. It was right in front -- or right 23 in front of that gate like -- 24 Q: After the bus went through? 25 A: It was off to the side after the bus went
301 through. 2 Q: But it was either on the inside of the 3 gate on the Park side or on the outside? 4 A: Yeah. It was blocking the path through 5 that gate anyway. 6 Q: And was it put there by the occupiers 7 after the occupation of the Park? 8 A: I don't know. It could have been. I -- 9 it could have been there by the MNR too. I don't -- 10 Q: And you then -- the bus -- did you see 11 who was driving the bus? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And so, the bus exited the Park through 14 the gate, pushed the dumpster out of the way, then what 15 happened, Mr. Simon? 16 A: A lot of us followed the bus out. 17 Myself, I was walking on -- it would be the north side of the 18 bus. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And basically walked along towards the 21 rear of the bus and followed it out. We headed in the 22 direction over where Slippery had been -- being beaten. As 23 we got -- the police they were -- had formed their group up 24 further back again by that time. And they after -- the 25 fights everybody would be kind of scattering about, they had
311 basically re-grouped and were blocking the path to Slippery 2 so when the bus had made its way -- 3 Q: And when you -- 4 A: -- towards Slippery it was basically 5 forcing those police back and eventually it forced them to 6 split. 7 We lost track of where Slippery was for a 8 while but I did see at one point where they were dragging him 9 away. And the bus basically continued down the road. I 10 guess he had a better view of Slippery and see where they 11 were taking him. 12 Q: And when the bus came out, how fast was 13 the bus travelling? 14 A: It was a walking pace. I walked beside 15 it. 16 Q: And where were the -- you -- you've 17 indicated that the police officers were lined up with Mr. 18 Cecil Bernard George behind them. Can you tell us where on 19 Exhibit 103 the police officers were as you recall? 20 A: They were right in front of where I had 21 marked where they started first run him over there to number 22 two (2). 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: They were -- they basically stayed in the 25 same area where they'd run him over and where they had
321 started the beating of him. They basically just stayed right 2 there -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- until the point where the bus came 5 out. 6 Q: So -- 7 A: -- the police you're talking were -- 8 would be right... 9 Q: Can you draw a circle where you observed 10 the police at the point when the bus came out and put a 11 number five (5) beside it? Or a line, if they were in a 12 line, Mr. Simon. And how many officers were at the point 13 where number five (5) was? 14 A: That was -- that would have been the main 15 group of the ones with the shields, so there was quite a bit. 16 I think twenty (20), thirty (30). 17 Q: Okay. And -- 18 A: Like I said, I could have been a little 19 closer. It's hard to judge with that map. 20 Q: No, I appreciate that. So, it could have 21 been close -- the police officers could have been either on 22 -- at the edge of the pavement or even on the pavement, is 23 that... 24 A: I think they -- they were definitely off 25 the pavement, in the sandy -- sandy parking lot area. Could
331 have been they were where that sand pile is. That wasn't 2 there at the time. 3 Q: Okay. That sand pile -- I was going to 4 ask you that sand pile -- was the sand pile there on the 5 evening of September 6th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And there -- 8 A: It's kind of -- that's what I'm saying. 9 They could have been closer, they could have been more where 10 that sand pile -- like, there is a bit of a dune that was 11 there, but it's not that sand pile. 12 Q: Yeah, the sand pile sticks out into the 13 sandy parking lot. There -- there is a -- there was back in 14 1995 a dune around the corner, is that not correct, coming 15 from Army Camp Road, turns east towards the -- the Park? 16 A: Yes. That would have been more of what I 17 was using the gauge on. I was looking at that sand pile. 18 That's why I drew the -- the two (2) and the five (5) a 19 little closer to the pavement. They'd be -- kind of -- 20 trying to situate it with that sand pile, but that sand pile 21 wasn't there, so it would have been a little more into the 22 parking lot area. 23 Q: So, that, probably the number five (5) 24 and the number two (2) should be farther east into the 25 parking lot area?
341 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And do you know when that sand 3 pile was put into the sandy -- was created in the sandy 4 parking lot? 5 A: I believe it was on the morning of the 6 7th. It was after -- after Dudley had been shot and killed. 7 Q: And when you say you believe it was on 8 the 7th, why do believe that and how was it created? 9 A: After word had got out that Dudley had 10 been killed there had a lot of people that showed up, and 11 supporters from different nations and different places. 12 There was a lot of people around. There'd 13 been dumpster and a backhoe used to move some of those cement 14 blocks into the area to form, I guess, like a barricade. 15 Q: Well, perhaps what we'll do is we'll come 16 back to that -- 17 A: Later? 18 Q: -- later. So, that you're with the bus, 19 the bus is coming out, the -- what was the purpose of you -- 20 as you understood it, of the bus coming out into the sandy 21 parking lot? 22 A: To try to put an end to that beating of 23 Slippery and the others. 24 Q: And the -- so, the bus, when the bus 25 approached the police officers the police officers split up?
351 A: Yeah, as it -- as the bus got to their -- 2 to their point where they were, they basically split in two 3 (2), made room for the bus to go through and at one (1) point 4 I could see those groups that were there, they were clubbing 5 Cecil and they basically stopped clubbing for a bit and had 6 started to drag him westward down East Parkway Drive. 7 Q: And do you see where the police officers 8 took Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 9 A: A little later on I had noticed -- I had 10 got another glimpse of -- of him. There was a -- I think it 11 was a paddy wagon, OPP van of some sort, that was parked 12 further down East Parkway Drive, they were heading in that 13 direction. 14 I see him being dragged. There wasn't as much 15 of a beating going on, but I could see that he was still 16 being clubbed as they were dragging him away and the bus was 17 still trying to make it in that direction. 18 There was a lot of people around in that area 19 of the parking lot, some of our own people and a lot of the 20 police. As I followed the bus out, and it made it out onto 21 the -- the paved part -- portion of it, and I basically 22 stopped, I guess it would be right at the end of Army Camp 23 Road. There's a -- a couple of signs there. That is about 24 as far as I went. 25 Q: And perhaps -- just take a moment, Mr.
361 George -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Simon. 3 THE WITNESS: Simon. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, Mr. Simon, I 5 apologize. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: On the screen is a copy of Photo Number 11 13 from Exhibit P-24 and does that -- can -- using that 12 Photograph Number 13, can you point out the signs that you 13 were referring to? 14 A: Yes, there's -- there's a big square 15 sheet of plywood-type thing there; that's a map of the -- the 16 beach area -- different businesses and stuff. I believe I 17 stand just to the right of that, if not in front of it. 18 Q: Yes. And this photograph is a little -- 19 it's Photograph Number 14 from Exhibit P-24 and it shows the 20 sign on the left-hand side; there are three (3) people in 21 front of it. And so you were close to that sign, either to 22 the east side of it or in the front of it? 23 A: Yeah, just a little right of -- of those 24 people, but closer to the sign, too. 25 Q: Yes.
371 A: They were more closer to the pavement 2 there. 3 Q: You were on -- you were -- you were on 4 the side of the road? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And we see the cement block in this 7 photograph near the driveway. It's -- on Exhibit 103, it's 8 driveway eleven-o-two (1102), but that cement brock -- block 9 wasn't there on the evening of September 6th? 10 A: I don't remember it being there, no. 11 Q: Okay. So, you're at this -- is this as 12 -- as far west as you went on the evening of September 6th? 13 A: Myself? Yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. And, so, you arrived there and 15 where was the bus? 16 A: The bus was further down. I had followed 17 it out that far, but I had stopped there because we were 18 getting more -- as the police split up and made room for the 19 bus to go -- go by, a lot of the police had stayed in their 20 positions there to let the bus pass, so that's basically 21 where I had -- I had -- I didn't want to get right into -- 22 into -- into their midst again, so that's where I'd stayed. 23 Q: And did you observe a car come out of the 24 Park -- out of the Park? 25 A: Yeah. That might have been also part of
381 the reason why I had -- I had stepped aside, too, to that 2 spot, I noticed that the car was coming up. 3 Q: And did you go out and -- before the car 4 went out or did -- or did -- how long did -- was it between 5 the bus coming out and the car coming out of the Park? 6 A: The car would have been just, like, right 7 behind it, basically, maybe a car length or two (2). I 8 didn't really see it right off -- right away. I thought it 9 was just the -- the bus. 10 But at some point along there, as I was 11 walking, I noticed that the -- the car was following it out 12 and as I stepped aside I -- I'd watched him go by. The bus 13 had continued, basically, on the pavement and the car, it 14 made it a little -- little further past me to where the 15 police were and that's where he basically did a quick right 16 turn, I guess, towards the lake -- north, and kept forcing 17 those -- those police officers back. 18 The ones on the -- the south side, they'd 19 continued, basically, in a retreat away from us and those 20 ones on the north side were -- there was a fairly large group 21 of them. I guess that's who he spotted and then he turned 22 towards them and started forcing them back towards -- my -- 23 my thought was that he was forcing them away down the -- East 24 Parkway Drive, but they had stayed in that area and just kept 25 backing up towards the ditch.
391 Q: Okay. And the -- did the car have its 2 lights on, that you recall? 3 A: I -- I can't recall. 4 Q: And how fast was the car going when you 5 saw the car? 6 A: It was doing the same as the bus, a 7 walking pace. 8 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit 103, 9 the -- how far west you observed the bus -- how far west it 10 went, the bus, before it stopped? Assuming it was -- it 11 stopped on the -- on this map it may have gone farther west? 12 A: I'm not really too sure on -- it's not -- 13 there was some -- some road signs, somewhere along in here. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: It was somewhere in that location if it 16 was -- if it was at this driveway or if it was a little bit 17 further, I'm not too sure. 18 Q: Okay. So, that -- 19 A: It looks like a speed -- 20 Q: -- it was either at -- 21 A: -- speed sign or something like that, 22 somewhere in that area of it. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
401 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: This is Exhibit Number -- Photograph 3 No. 4, Mr. Simon, from Exhibit P-24, and it's looking east, 4 excuse me, west down East Parkway from the entrance to the 5 sandy parking lot, and does that assist you with -- 6 A: I guess -- 7 Q: -- trying to place where the bus -- how 8 far down the road the bus went? 9 A: Yeah, a bit there. I'd say it was right 10 around that first driveway there. Because that OPP van was 11 just -- it was on the -- the right of the roadway there. And 12 I believe it was right around that first driveway, maybe just 13 a little past, a little closer -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- maybe to the second driveway. 16 Q: -- the first -- the OPP van was on the 17 north side of the road past the first driveway? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And the first driveway that's shown on -- 20 A: It may have even been the second 21 driveway. It was somewhere right in that area of those two 22 (2) driveways. 23 Q: Okay. And the bus went down how far? 24 A: Pretty much right to that van almost. 25 Q: So, it went past the first driveway
411 somewhere between the first and the second driveway? 2 A: Yeah, somewhere in that area. 3 Q: And the first driveway on Exhibit 103 4 is sixty-eight forty-two (6842)? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So, could you just -- 7 A: Just draw -- 8 Q: -- draw a line, draw at the edge of the 9 map, the back part of the bus, because it doesn't go quite as 10 far as the second, where... 11 A: Put a six (6)? 12 Q: Six (6). And so, the bus went probably a 13 little farther west than that spot, but it's off the map? 14 A: Yeah, somewhere in that area. 15 Q: And the car, did you observe where the 16 car went? 17 A: According to this map, it would have been 18 before that. That driveway you see on that picture there? 19 Q: Yes...? 20 A: Maybe just a little past that, that fifty 21 (50) sign, it was somewhere in that area, between the -- the 22 speed sign where it says fifty (50) and the first driveway. 23 Q: Okay. And could you mark the approximate 24 area that -- on Exhibit 103, where the car stopped. I take 25 it the car turned north and stopped?
421 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And then reversed? 3 A: Yeah. Basically right -- put a seven (7) 4 in there? 5 Q: Yes, please. And -- 6 A: That would have been as far as the car 7 had gone, then it did the turn towards the ditch like that, 8 and -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I guess it would have been more of a 11 right angle too. 12 Q: I appreciate that, Mr. Simon. Then what 13 happened? 14 A: As that car was forcing the -- those 15 officers back, and I could see the brake lights going, that's 16 why I said I wasn't too sure if the lights were on or not. I 17 know that there was -- I could see the brake lights for sure. 18 He had stopped and going -- a couple times 19 like that. Once the police had, basically, reached the ditch 20 area, they'd stop and then they'd were starting to club the 21 -- club the car. I had seen a few of them with their weapons 22 out. 23 Q: You could see the -- you saw police 24 officers with their weapons out? 25 A: Yeah.
431 Q: And at this point you were standing by 2 the sign, to the right of the sign that we can see in the 3 right side of Picture Number 4 and Exhibit 24? 4 A: Yeah. Up in that grassy area there. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: It must have been right at that time when 7 I heard the first shots. And there was -- it started kind of 8 slow, couple of quick pops, the car started to make its 9 retreat coming back, the bus has started to come back and I 10 heard those first shots fired. 11 And then it was just a matter of seconds and 12 there was a whole -- a whole volley of them. You could see 13 the police that were all around the car, either of side of it 14 they were firing. The ones that were further down by the 15 bus, this side of the OPP van you can see it there, there was 16 quite a number of them too were firing. 17 Q: And behind you, Mr. Simon, perhaps you 18 could pick it up and put it up on the -- on the easel is a 19 copy of Exhibit 21 from the Kenneth Dean trial and... 20 A: Is there a trick to your things here? 21 Just take this one off or -- 22 Q: Yes, please. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
441 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Commissioner I would 2 like to ask that that be marked Exhibit 104. I think one-o- 3 four (104) is the next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-104, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-104: Copy of Exhibit 21 from the 7 Kenneth Dean trial. 8 9 Q: You testified at the trial of Kenneth 10 Dean? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And do you recall marking up this plan 13 that's behind you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- what is the significance of -- 16 the first X where it says, KS; is that the approximate area 17 that you were standing? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the reference to MF is to, I take it, 20 as I understand it, muzzle flashes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what did those MF's signify? 23 A: Those were the muzzle flashes from the 24 police that I was just explaining. 25 Q: And that's --
451 A: The ones -- the ones on the north side of 2 the road were the ones that were on the car. The ones on the 3 other side were the other group of officers were on the other 4 side of the road. I could see them shooting. 5 Q: And the officers on the south side of the 6 road where you've marked muzzle flash, was that where you 7 first saw the muzzle flashes on the south side of the road? 8 A: I can't really say where I had seen the 9 first muzzle flashes but those would been where I seen the 10 main majority of muzzle flashes as the whole -- they all -- 11 the shots just basically erupted there. There was -- there 12 was a lot all at once. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: So, there was -- there was quite a number 15 of muzzle flashes. Like the ones that were around the car 16 seemed like there must have been maybe close to a dozen 17 officers in that one (1) area that were shooting to the other 18 side of the road, maybe the same. 19 Q: And the officers on the south side of the 20 road, did you observe what they were shooting at? 21 A: It seemed to me it would be in all 22 directions. Some were at the car, some were at the bus, some 23 were back towards the Park. There seemed like they were 24 going in every direction. 25 Q: And at the point where you first saw the
461 muzzle flashes and you first heard the shooting, where was 2 the bus? 3 A: The bus would have been basically right 4 -- almost between those X's in the -- marked by the MF there. 5 Q: And was the bus -- what was the bus 6 doing? 7 A: It was in the process of reversing. It 8 was coming back towards the Park. 9 Q: Okay. Then you were at the point that's 10 marked on Exhibit 104, what did you -- what did you do? 11 A: I was -- I stood there for a bit. I 12 didn't really think that they were -- they were actually 13 shooting. I didn't know what the noise was at first but at 14 one point I remember seeing the dirt was -- had kicked up 15 near my feet and I had looked back at the main crowd of 16 people and I'd seen a lot of them were basically running, 17 ducking and trying to take cover of some sort. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: And I could see that the -- their spots 20 were -- you could see the ground would be getting kicked up 21 around in amongst all of those people. 22 Q: And the people you're referring to were 23 in the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And did you observe -- could you see
471 where they were running to? 2 A: All directions. They were just trying to 3 get away from where they were, take cover. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Mostly back towards the Park. 6 Q: Yes. 7 Q: Once I had seen those, I had realized 8 that they were shooting. Like I said, I'd looked back. A 9 lot of them were -- seemed to me that they were following. I 10 thought that a lot of people were getting shot. 11 You'd seen the -- the car and the bus continue 12 back and I stay in that same location as -- as they'd gone 13 by. And the car was the first one that made it back. It had 14 gone back into the Park before the bus and as the bus had 15 gone by me, that's when I heard somebody yell out that Dudley 16 had been hit, Dudley was shot. 17 At that point, I notice that the police were 18 no longer in the area, the sandy parking lot. They'd been 19 further down as -- maybe as far as where the car had gone. 20 So I'd made my -- they try to move from that 21 spot. I'd made a -- basically started walking towards where 22 I'd heard that Dudley had been shot. I did see a -- 23 basically see him, laying on the ground, the form of somebody 24 laying there. 25 The bus, it was having trouble getting back
481 in. There was a dumpster, it was still kind of in the road. 2 It hit it maybe once or twice, trying to reverse to make it 3 back in. And there was fairly loose sand there, so I guess 4 it was having -- it was unable to push it out of the way like 5 it did when it came out. 6 There was people that were pushing that 7 dumpster out of the way, and I had made my way over to 8 Dudley, that's where -- knocked down, seen that it was Dudley 9 and there was quite a bit of blood around his shirt, on top 10 of his chest area. His shirt was pretty much soaked. 11 Knelt down to him and grabbed his hand like 12 that, basically give him a handshake. And I don't know if I 13 said if he was all right and I had heard him try to say 14 something but I knew he couldn't talk. He was bleeding 15 pretty good, so basically told him he did a good job in 16 fighting out there. 17 So, I think it might have been Joe George and 18 J.T., I think, I'm not too sure, if he had helped carry 19 Dudley back in, that we'd gotten, once the bus had made it -- 20 its way in, we'd followed -- carried Dudley in. 21 And there were people yelling. I hear 22 somebody saying something about get the OPP, get the car and 23 seen the OPP WHO car pull up to -- in front of that gate and 24 the door was open so we put -- put Dudley in the back. 25 J.T. had -- or Kokomo one of them, had gone
491 around to the -- the other side of the car and basically laid 2 him on the back seat and they took off. 3 Q: And if we could just stop for a moment 4 and step back, Mr. Simon. On Exhibit 104, you have marked 5 with an X and you marked at the Deane trial an X and with the 6 initials "D.G." and what did that signify? 7 A: That's where I'd seen Dudley on the 8 ground. 9 Q: And when you saw -- first saw Mr. George, 10 Dudley George, on the ground, was it -- where was the bus? 11 A: Pretty much where that be is for a block 12 -- it's where I'd seen the bus was -- it was heading back 13 into the gate but it kind of back and forth, like I said. It 14 had hit the dumpster a couple of times or once or something. 15 Q: So, that the bus was on the north side of 16 Mr. George? 17 A: Yeah, pretty much north and maybe more 18 westerly. 19 Q: And the -- so that -- did the bus 20 obstruct your view of Mr. George or not? 21 A: Not necessarily. I -- I think I had to 22 walk a little bit around it, but not -- not really. I had 23 pretty much a straight line from where I was standing -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- to where Dudley was.
501 Q: And did -- when was the last time you saw 2 Cecil Bernard George that evening? 3 A: As the buses were making their way down 4 East Parkway Drive. I wasn't -- I didn't know if it was 5 Slippery or not, but I'd seen somebody being dragged, so -- I 6 lost track of him somewhere as the bus was making -- going 7 past where I had stopped in front of that sign. 8 Q: And were you able to see how the person 9 was being dragged? 10 A: He was being dragged. I don't know. I 11 just seen -- there was a couple of guys in front of him, he 12 was on the ground behind, and there was a couple of guys that 13 were basically following him and they're still getting 14 clubbed. 15 Q: And did you observe -- could you observe 16 the person on the ground and what the person on the ground 17 was doing? 18 A: He wasn't -- wasn't moving, he was just 19 getting dragged. 20 Q: Okay. And during this period of time, on 21 September 6th, did you see any guns in the hands of the 22 occupiers? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And on September 6th, during the day, had 25 -- when you were there, did you see any guns in the hands of
511 the occupiers? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did you see any muzzle flashes coming 4 from the Park? 5 A: No. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: How long do you think the bus -- can you 11 recall how long the bus and the car were out -- outside the 12 Park? 13 A: I didn't have no watch or anything, but 14 it seemed like just a matter of seconds. It was a very short 15 time. 16 Q: And can you recall how long the whole 17 confrontation with the police was from the time they came 18 down the Park -- East Parkway to the time they left? And you 19 were back in the Park with Mr. George? 20 A: Just a matter of minutes. It could have 21 been, like, maybe two (2) minutes at the top, I don't know. 22 It was -- like I said, I didn't have a watch. It was -- and 23 it happened so quick. It seemed like it was a lot longer. 24 There was so much that had happened all at once, but it was 25 very, very quick.
521 Q: Okay. And at what point did the shooting 2 stop? 3 A: Right around the time when I'd heard that 4 Dudley had been hit, maybe just -- just before. I guess it 5 would have been just before, because it was quiet enough 6 where I was able to hear across the parking lot, but like I 7 said, the shooting that took place, it was basically all at 8 once. It sounded to me like -- like they had all shot and 9 then reloaded and then shot again and then reloaded a second 10 time. 11 Q: And -- 12 Q: But it was all just right quick. It 13 was -- 14 Q: And did you hear any commands from -- or 15 the police say anything? 16 A: Not -- not really, no. 17 Q: Okay. And the -- when you were back in 18 the Park, did you see Stacey George? 19 A: After everything taken place and they had 20 taken Dudley, yes. 21 Q: And what was Stacey George doing? 22 A: There was actually quite a few were still 23 yelling. Somebody had a spotlight out and we could see the 24 -- the police. They were still out on East Parkway Drive, 25 maybe down around where I'd said the -- that the OPP van
531 had been. 2 I'd seen the -- seen them guys out -- out in 3 front -- it appeared like -- I don't know if they were coming 4 out of the bushes or what, but you could see that they were 5 holding their guns kind of -- they had different -- different 6 guns from what the other ones that I'd seen shooting. They 7 were the ones that were in front and you could see the other 8 officers in behind, but they were -- there was -- they were 9 facing us, but making a retreat and quiet a few of us had 10 started yelling, myself included, and that's where I'd seen 11 Stacey. 12 He was out there, basically, just out on the 13 -- the pavement part yelling, calling them murderers and 14 stuff like that. 15 Q: And what, if anything, did you do when 16 you saw Mr. George -- Stacey George -- out in -- by the 17 pavement? 18 A: I had gone out beside him there and I was 19 yelling quite bit too, but I don't know -- 20 Q: Did you tell him to go back into the 21 Park? 22 A: Yeah, I guess, something -- I'm not 23 really too sure. 24 Q: Okay. And when the -- as you saw the 25 police officers move west on East Parkway Drive, the -- you
541 say that you saw some police officers with a different type 2 of gun -- 3 A: Yeah, it appeared -- 4 Q: -- and were dressed differently? 5 A: -- appeared different. They were -- the 6 ones that were out in front, they'd have their hands off to 7 the side as if they were carrying something pointing down at 8 the ground and there was -- there was enough to form a line 9 across the road in front of the -- the other officers. 10 Q: And do you know how many there were? 11 Okay. 12 A: Half dozen or a dozen, maybe. There 13 wasn't -- wasn't as many of those -- those officers that I'd 14 witness there, they were spread out a little bit more. Like, 15 the ones that came marching down with the clubs, they were -- 16 they were shoulder-to-shoulder. Their -- their shields were 17 basically touching, if not overlapping. 18 Q: So these -- 19 A: Those -- those officers are spread all 20 out more. 21 Q: And the officers you saw in front of the 22 group as they were retreating, facing towards you, did they 23 have shields and helmets? 24 A: No, it just looked to me like they were 25 -- they were carrying, I don't know, a gun or something.
551 Q: And the -- were -- did you see the guns 2 that were being used by the police officers who were shooting 3 on the road when you observed the police officers shooting? 4 A: The ones that I'd seen where I got the 5 muzzle flashes marked, those ones were -- they were the 6 handguns that you carry on your holsters. 7 Q: Those were handguns? Okay. Thank you. 8 And after you were back in the Park, after the police 9 officers retreated down East Parkway Drive, you went back in 10 the Park. What did you do? 11 I take it you went back in the Park? 12 A: Yeah. After Dudley -- they had taken 13 Dudley away I think the first thing I did, or right around -- 14 right around that time, I'd remembered there was some pay 15 phones over by the Park store. I'd gone over there. I 16 believe that's where I'd seen Gina Johnson again. 17 She was on the phone. She was saying 18 something about it was -- had been cut. She was talking to 19 somebody and it had been cut and she had dialled up another 20 number and was talking to somebody there. That might have 21 been after I'd gone out on the road with -- with -- we call 22 him Burger, Stacey. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: We'd come back in and maybe that's when 25 I'd gone over. It was right -- right quick there when I'd
561 gone over to the phone. Gina had dialled up the news agency 2 of some sort and they had heard somebody say, Hello, and 3 identify themselves and as soon as I started to talk, I heard 4 this -- this strange noise on the -- on the phone and it was 5 dead. So I, basically hung it up and tried again and they 6 got the buzzer noise again, sounded like it was working so I 7 tried again. 8 Q: You tried or Gina tried? 9 A: I tried. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But by that time I didn't know any -- any 12 other numbers. I was trying to think and I remember my -- my 13 uncle's number in Kettle Point, so I'd called him. Once 14 again, it rang a couple of times and it just went dead and 15 there was no sound, no nothing, so I gave up on that and I 16 went back over towards where the -- the fire was and there 17 was a few people that were still around that were yelling. I 18 think I went back out on the road again. 19 By that time, the police were nowhere to be 20 seen. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: They were gone. 23 Q: And then what happened? What did you do? 24 A: I just didn't know what to do. I just 25 stayed there. I didn't have no vehicle there. I went and
571 sat down on -- off to the side. There is a hill right about 2 where it says, "Ipperwash Provincial Park" -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- on -- on your map there. And there's 5 a bit of a hill there, I guess, gravel or whatever from the 6 parking lot. And I just basically sat on that and just tried 7 to -- thought about what was -- what had happened there and 8 tried to think about what I could do to -- to basically help 9 or change things or figure out what happened. I didn't 10 know -- 11 Q: And -- 12 A: -- what to think. 13 Q: Were you in the Park -- how long did you 14 stay in the Park? 15 A: I stayed there for quite a while, early 16 morning hours. Sometime during that time that I was sitting 17 on that hill there, we had been told that Dudley was dead, 18 that he'd made it to the hospital and then was told that he 19 didn't make it. 20 Heard a lot more yelling and stuff and I just 21 sat there for a while longer, maybe a couple of hours, I 22 don't know. Eventually somebody offered us a ride. Somebody 23 who'd come over asked if I was all right. I said, Yeah. 24 Just a lot of people were like, basically, 25 checking each other and a lot of people were injured, got
581 clubbed pretty good. Checking to see if people were shot. I 2 had heard there'd been a couple of people were shot. 3 By the time, I don't know, maybe -- maybe 5:00 4 -- 5:00 ish, somebody had offered me a ride out. And things 5 had calmed down a bit by then. 6 Q: And after -- when you were in the Park 7 after Mr. Dudley George had been shot, and the police had 8 left, approximately how many people in the Park in the 9 morning of September -- early -- 10 A: After the police had left, there -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: -- was maybe a dozen. 13 Q: And at some point was the Park store and 14 the gate house burned? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And how did that come about? 17 A: After -- after we learned that Dudley had 18 -- had actually died, like I said, there was a lot -- a lot 19 more yelling. People were going out on the road. Heard a 20 lot of yelling inside the Park and just heard people say 21 Burn, burn that building. 22 And the next thing I know, I went around to 23 look and you could see that it was -- it was already in 24 flames. 25 Q: So, that -- did you participate in
591 starting the fire? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did you see what was used to start 4 the fire, Mr. Simon? 5 A: No. I heard there was some gas or 6 something. I don't know. 7 Q: And did you see anyone with Molotov 8 cocktails? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you know what a Molotov cocktail is? 11 A: Yeah. When you have a bottle filled with 12 gas. 13 Q: With a rag in the top? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And so you stayed in the Park until the 16 early morning and what do you -- you got a ride back to the 17 built up area? 18 A: Yeah, somebody had given me a ride. I 19 don't recall -- give me a ride up to the -- the main gate at 20 the barracks. People had been starting to show up. I 21 remember seeing Bonnie there again. 22 She had been there asking to get the -- take 23 out -- offering to take out a lot of children -- women and 24 children. I was one of the people that spoke up to say, 25 Where are you going to take them? You going to go out there
601 into the cops? They're the ones that are killing people. 2 And I also heard at that time that my -- my 3 mother and my grandma were missing. I'd heard -- there was 4 quite a few rumours going around. We'd heard that Slippery 5 had been shot after he had -- was arrested. They were saying 6 that he had been shot in the head while he was handcuffed and 7 all kinds of things were being said. 8 We didn't really know what to think at that 9 time. I kind of knew that a lot of the stuff was just 10 exaggeration or rumours or whatever, that it wasn't -- it 11 wasn't true or it couldn't be true. 12 We stayed there for a while and I guess -- and 13 didn't know what to do so I decided the best thing was I go 14 try to rest seeing as it was getting morning time. I had 15 gone over to the barracks where my cousin was staying at the 16 time. I must have crashed out for about two (2) hours. 17 Q: And you cousin was who? 18 A: Warren George. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: After I'd woken up -- I guess part of the 21 reason it had helped me sleep was that I had asked, 22 basically, asked the Creator that we be shown some support 23 and people would come. When I woke up there was quite a -- 24 quite a number of people. 25 I'd say easily a thousand (1,000) that being
611 around, already gathered around that gatehouse and more had 2 come down the road from Kettle Point direction and there was 3 -- there was people everywhere that were basically supporting 4 what -- what I had asked for. 5 Q: Okay. And when you woke up did you -- 6 the people were -- were in the built-up area, they were in 7 the built-up area of the army camp? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And so -- that you did not see 10 them come down the road, the first group? 11 A: Not the first group, no. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- can you tell us who -- 13 did you see who was driving the car when the car came out of 14 the Park on the evening of September 6th? 15 A: I couldn't see, no. 16 Q: And did you recognize the car, whose car 17 it was? 18 A: Sort of, yeah. I recognized -- kind of 19 recognized it. It was Warren's. 20 Q: When did you learn who the driver of the 21 car and the bus were? 22 A: It would have been quite a while after. 23 Maybe about a week had passed. 24 Q: And on the morning of the 7th, what did 25 you do -- the large group of people were -- supporters were
621 in the built-up area; what did you do after you got up? You 2 met with these -- the people? 3 A: I had walked around. They had had the 4 bus up there, the car, they were showing them off to the 5 different reporters, people were taking pictures and I just 6 kind of roamed around and I was kind of in a daze. Didn't 7 really know what was going on. 8 Q: When did you -- when did you find out 9 what had happened to your mother and your grandmother? 10 A: It could have been later that day, I'm 11 not too sure. 12 Q: Okay. And did you go down to the Park 13 the morning of the 7th? 14 A: Not right away. It might have been 15 closer to noon. 16 Q: And when you went down to the Park, what 17 was happening in the Park? 18 A: They had already had the barricade set up 19 where they were talking about the sand pile and the blocks 20 and stuff. There was quite a number of people down there -- 21 Q: And who were the people -- where was the 22 barricade? The barricade was in the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And did you know -- who were the people 25 by the barricade?
631 A: There was all sorts of people. I 2 recognized a few people, some of them from different reserves 3 and that but, you know, there was a lot of people. I 4 recognized some and some I didn't. 5 Q: Okay. And were there any of the -- of 6 the Stony -- people from Stony Point in the Stony -- sandy 7 parking lot when you were there? 8 A: Yeah. There was people out and -- some 9 that were -- were there the night before and I don't know, 10 the majority of people were ones that had just come in that 11 morning. 12 Q: And -- if I could see for a moment -- 13 Exhibit P-68, please. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: When you mentioned about when I found out 18 who was driving the two vehicles, it was the bus that I 19 hadn't really found out for like, quite a while, maybe a week 20 or whatever. 21 I had suspected right away, like that I was 22 saying, that next morning when they were photographing the -- 23 the car and the bus and I seen the car and realized that was 24 Warren's car, and basically knew it was -- was him that was 25 driving.
641 Q: Okay. 2 A: But I wasn't too sure, I never asked him. 3 Q: Okay. The -- now, did you go down to the 4 -- on East Parkway Drive farther west, there's a parking lot 5 that's the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot; are you 6 familiar with that parking lot? 7 A: Down East Park -- East Parkway Drive? 8 Yeah. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you go down to that parking lot 12 on the morning or during the day on September 7th? 13 A: No, I don't think so. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And I'm going to show you a video, it's 16 Exhibit P-68, and what I want to show you actually, is the -- 17 the sandy parking lot taken from East Parkway Drive, and then 18 ask you a couple of questions about what you will see on the 19 -- in the parking lot. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: You see, Mr. Simon, this, it looks like a 25 barricade being constructed, at the end of East Parkway
651 Drive, on the sandy parking lot. Is that the barricade 2 you're referring to? 3 A: Yeah, it would be the area that -- I 4 don't know what date that was -- a couple days later. 5 Q: And the barricade -- are you -- the 6 barricade that you referred to on September 7th, can you 7 describe that, or are you thinking of the barricade on 8 September 9th? 9 A: I was probably thinking of this on the 10 9th. 11 Q: And can you tell me, was there a fire 12 built that you're aware of, either in the sandy parking lot 13 or on the pavement at the edge of the sandy parking lot? 14 A: There had been one lit on the -- on the 15 pavement of East Parkway Drive. Q: And -- 16 A: People are saying that that was where 17 Dudley had been shot, but I didn't -- I didn't think that was 18 correct, because I never seen -- seen him that far and I 19 never really seen anybody go that far, except for the -- the 20 bus. 21 Q: And the -- do you know when the fire was 22 built? 23 A: I thought it was the next morning, but it 24 could have been a couple days later, like this barricade too, 25 I don't know.
661 Q: well, perhaps I could show you 2 Exhibit P-99 for a moment. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Did you see the fire burning, Mr. Simon? 7 A: If it's the same fire, that one that's on 8 East Parkway Drive, yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A little technical 14 problems here, Commissioner. Perhaps we could take the 15 morning break and -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and I'll get this set 18 up. We'll just take a short break, Mr. Simon. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's a good 20 idea. Let's take a fifteen (15) minute break. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess for 22 fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 10:34 a.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 10:53 a.m.
671 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 2 Please be seated. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we have on 4 the screen, the part of the -- the video tape that was taken 5 on the, I believe it was on September 8th. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And you'll see the fire, Mr. Simon, on 9 the road, and do you got -- was that a fire that was built 10 after the death of Mr. George? 11 A: Yes it was. 12 Q: And that was the fire that was, as you 13 told us before the break, built -- can you -- do you know 14 when it was built? 15 A: Like I said, I thought it was on the 7th 16 but I'm not too sure. 17 Q: Okay. And the -- do you know who built 18 the fire? 19 A: No I don't. 20 Q: And the fire you told us, was built 21 because someone had found some blood on the road? 22 A: Yeah, that's what I had heard. People 23 had thought that's where Dudley had been shot, but I didn't 24 -- I didn't think so, but... 25 Q: You didn't -- you were standing when the
681 shots were fired, as you -- 2 A: And Dudley was quite a ways away from -- 3 from where that fire is, or was. 4 Q: And missed -- when you -- you see -- when 5 you were -- when you were out and the shots started to be 6 fired, as I understand it, you were, on Exhibit 104, where 7 it's marked on Exhibit 104, which is behind you -- the -- on 8 the lower one (1) where it says, "Kevin Simon by the sign"? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And the area that you were standing, if 11 you look at Exhibit 24, Picture 4 was by the sign that's on 12 the right-hand side, you were on the west side of that and we 13 are now looking east, and you can see the spot, I think, on 14 this photo, where the fire was, there's a black mark. Do you 15 see that on the -- on the pavement? 16 Is that where the fire was? 17 A: I believe so, yes. 18 Q: And did you see Mr. Dudley George between 19 where you were standing and that part of the pavement that -- 20 where the fire was, at any time on the evening of September 21 6th? 22 A: No I didn't. 23 Q: And when you saw Mr. Dudley George, he 24 was in the parking lot? 25 A: Yes.
691 Q: In the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And you saw him over where you've marked 4 on Exhibit 104? 5 A: Yeah. Where D.G. is on the one (1) map. 6 Q: And one question that I forgot to ask 7 you: When the confrontation started with the police, you 8 were standing on the inside of the park? 9 A: It could have been on the outside, it 10 would have been right close to that fence, either if I was 11 inside or outside, I -- 12 Q: And did you go -- and you went -- 13 A: -- I may have been on the outside, 14 because I remember rushing to get through that turnstile at 15 one (1) point. 16 Q: Okay. And then when you went -- when you 17 were on the inside of the fence, the Park side of the fence, 18 can you tell me where you were standing? 19 A: I would have been just north of that 20 turnstile. 21 Q: Okay. Could you perhaps put an X and the 22 number eight (8), I think it is, where you -- where you were 23 standing, on Exhibit 103. 24 And can you put a little X -- oh, you've just 25 marked where you were standing with the eight (8), thank you.
701 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And on the morning of the 7th, or during 3 the day on the 7th, when you went back to the Park, were 4 there people conducting ceremonies in the Park? 5 A: Yeah, there was various people around. 6 There was some up in the barracks area too. I'm not too sure 7 if it was the morning -- the morning of the 7th, but there 8 had been a lot of -- I remembered after watching that -- I 9 flipped through that tape there before break and seen Ovid 10 Mercredi and other leaders. 11 There was quite a bit of them had come into 12 the barracks area, and held quite a large meeting inside the 13 -- the drill hall, at the end of the parade square. 14 Q: That was on September 7th? 15 A: I had thought it was on the 7th, I could 16 be mistaken again though. I don't know -- they were there 17 basically to try to calm people down. A lot of people didn't 18 react nicely to them, myself included. I didn't particularly 19 think they were being of any help after the way that we had 20 been talked about before this whole incident had began. 21 Our occupation of the Military Base; we had 22 been called down by chief of Kettle Point, called squatters, 23 not representatives of his nation, so a lot of people didn't 24 take too nicely being told, basically, what to do by other 25 elected officials, too. So, I don't really know what to say
711 about that. 2 But there was others on -- that they had 3 mentioned; Bruce Elijah and others like himself that are well 4 known pipe carriers. They were -- people like him were in 5 the Park. And basically, like you said, conducting 6 ceremonies, to try to calm people down. 7 I believe that's when that fire was lit that 8 we were talking about on East Parkway Drive; various stuff 9 like that. 10 Q: And Mr. Elijah is -- Bruce Elijah's from 11 Oneida? 12 A: I believe so, yes. 13 Q: And had you met Mr. Elijah before? I 14 take it you saw him on the September 7th or September 8th? 15 A: Somewhere around that time, yes. I'd 16 seen him before, too. Him and Bob Antone were pretty well 17 known for their role in diffusing the tensions at Oka when 18 that crisis was going on. 19 I believe they -- they were very good at what 20 -- what they do. They apparently done the same when they 21 came to Ipperwash, to the Park down there. 22 Q: And did -- were Mr. Elijah, Bruce Elijah 23 and Mr. Antone, Mr. Robert Antone, were they -- did you -- 24 were they in the Army camp prior to September 4th, after the 25 takeover on July 29th, to your knowledge?
721 A: I don't recall them coming down. 2 Q: And did you meet Mr. Leyton Elijah at 3 some point? Do you know Mr. Leyton Elijah? 4 A: I know him. I'm not too sure when I 5 first met him though. 6 Q: And did -- did he come to the -- to the 7 -- to Stony Point after the death of Mr. George? 8 A: I believe so. 9 Q: And do you know what his role was? 10 A: He was -- his role was as a 11 representative of the peacekeepers from Oneida. They're 12 instrumental in talking with the police, also with Bruce 13 Elijah and Bob Antone. 14 Leyton Elijah had worked in that role before 15 for his own reserve and, I guess, other places where it -- 16 he's familiar with processes of talking with the police and 17 setting up an agreement on -- basically to keep the peace so 18 there wouldn't be more violence. 19 Q: And the Oneida peacekeepers; what -- can 20 you tell me what your understanding of their role is? 21 A: They were -- my understanding is that 22 they -- were to help, basically, police, the reserve. Like I 23 said, a lot of tensions had been built up on other reserves 24 before; dealings with police aren't exactly known to be 25 friendly, I guess.
731 Their role is -- was basically to help do the 2 job of police, and make sure that dangerous criminal 3 activities and stuff like wasn't happening, to help keep the 4 peace, stuff like that. 5 Q: Okay. And the -- we saw a clip of P-68, 6 that video that showed the blockade that was being built on 7 September 9th. Do you know how long that blockade remained 8 in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: It was there for quite a while. I don't 10 really recall, though. 11 Q: And the -- we talked earlier a bit about 12 the sand pile. And did you see the sand pile being built in 13 the sandy parking lot? 14 A: No, I didn't. 15 Q: And do you -- did you see it at some 16 point after it had been created? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: When did you first see it? Do you 19 recall? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: And the cement blocks that are marked on 22 Exhibit P-103 and we saw on one of the photographs, they were 23 not there on the night of September 6th as I understand your 24 evidence? 25 A: No, they weren't.
741 Q: Do you know when they were put there? 2 A: Like I said before, I had thought it was 3 on the 7th, but I could be wrong. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, before I finish, 5 Mr. Simon, I would like to ask you what, in your view, could 6 be done to prevent -- to have prevented the death of Mr. 7 George and the confrontation on September the 6th? 8 A: That's a pretty tough question. I'd say 9 for starters, there be a lot more education in -- and the 10 schooling about our history. I know from personal 11 experiences being raised on different schools -- went to was 12 -- there was never any -- any formal way of learning about 13 our history as natives, different stuff that our people have 14 helped -- helped with the building of this nation here, of 15 Canada, protecting it. 16 There's reasons why there's treaties. There's 17 reasons why we have rights that we have and a lot of that 18 stuff is neglected to be taught. And a lot of people, they 19 -- they don't understand that. 20 And I believe that that's why we have so many 21 -- so many problems with people that I would call rednecks, 22 coming around and call us racist -- racist names and are 23 basically mad because we have these different rights. They 24 don't understand why we have those rights and freedoms. So, 25 I'd say that would be one (1) start.
751 Q: So, education would be an important -- a 2 general education of -- in the schools and elsewhere is an 3 important part of trying to get people to understand their 4 history? 5 A: Yeah, I'd believe so. 6 Q: Yes. Anything else? 7 A: I believe that with education, people 8 would start realizing that we're not so farfetched in our -- 9 our statements when we talk about our -- our rights and 10 freedoms. 11 And we wouldn't have such build-ups like what 12 happened at the Park there in September if people had gone 13 back and instead of bringing in police with all of these guns 14 and riot squads and everything, if they would have had a 15 different way of dealing with land claim issues and other 16 issues as well, I believe that that also would help diffuse 17 -- if there was a way of actually showing that there's 18 progress and an honest belief that they're trying to change 19 things. 20 As it was, we felt very abused and neglected 21 with our lands there. They always held the claim that the 22 land would be returned after the war and then it was -- after 23 it was no longer needed and then after it was cleaned up and, 24 you know, all this stuff never happened and it would be still 25 going on today.
761 What we did, going in, there is something I 2 wouldn't -- wouldn't recommend to anybody. It's a hardship 3 to live through something like that. It would be living 4 without no hydro, no water. 5 You'd be called all these different names in 6 the paper and people pulling up on the highway and coming 7 onto our beach attacking us, damaging our property. Stuff 8 like that, I believe wouldn't happen with -- with that type 9 of education and recognition of -- of our rights and why we 10 have such rights. 11 Q: Is there anything else you would like to 12 add, Mr. Simon? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I know there's a lot -- lot of other 17 things that could be done to help avoid violence like that, 18 but I'm really not a very eloquent speaker, I guess, to be 19 able to say -- and I don't really have many years as a lot of 20 people to be able to talk about such things, but -- 21 Q: Well, you can tell us what you think and 22 what you believe. 23 A: -- I believe -- all right. 24 Q: I'm asking you to do that, so -- 25 A: I believe that the education is the
771 biggest thing -- a good start. Other than that, just go from 2 there, I guess, and change things. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Simon. 4 A: I have one more thing I wanted to bring 5 up. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: What we were talking about on the 7th 8 there, you were saying that people had marched down East 9 Parkway. I had gone down there later that night to see for 10 myself what was down there. They were talking about these 11 ambulances that were around to help our people and stuff like 12 that. 13 What I'd witnessed there, the St. John 14 Ambulance, yeah, they were there, when I'd gone inside it 15 wasn't no ambulance, it was full of computer stuff. It was 16 like a command centre for the police. It wasn't there for 17 first aid. 18 Q: And the -- did you go in -- we -- can you 19 describe the vehicles that you went into on the evening of 20 September 7th? 21 A: The one, it was a trailer, like a 5th 22 wheel trailer. It was marked St. John Ambulance. This was a 23 van. It was also marked as an ambulance. 24 Q: Okay. Perhaps what I'll do, Mr. Simon, 25 is just show you an extract again from Exhibit P-68.
781 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And is that the -- 4 A: That's the one. 5 Q: -- the trailer, the 5th wheel trailer you 6 referred to? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you go inside that trailer? 9 A: Yes, I did. And I had a look inside. 10 And that's where I seen all that equipment. And there was 11 nothing that I seen that resembled anything of first aid 12 equipment or anything that would help with injuries. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And was this the second vehicle that you 17 mentioned? 18 A: Yeah I'd seen that but the doors and 19 stuff were still locked when I'd been there. 20 Q: And did you look through the window? 21 A: I don't know. I tried, yeah. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 Q: And were you able to look -- the 5th 25 wheel trailer, was the doors open when you were there --
791 A: Yeah. 2 Q: --- and you were able to look inside it? 3 A: Yeah. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Those are my questions, 5 Commissioner. I think that as Mr. Roland raised yesterday, 6 Mr. Rosenthal may have a few questions and then we'll start 7 the cross-examinations and perhaps we'll have Mr. Rosenthal 8 and then you can canvas for cross-examinations. And Mr. 9 Rosenthal wishes to raise some issues that had not been 10 raised by Commission Counsel. 11 And then as discussed yesterday, he will have 12 the opportunity to re-examine after everyone cross-examines. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we canvas 14 to see who's going to cross-examine now, or wait until after 15 Mr. Rosenthal's. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I suggest we wait until 17 after Mr. Rosenthal. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until after Mr. 19 Rosenthal. Okay. 20 Good morning. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Good 22 morning, Mr. Commissioner. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Good morning, Kevin.
801 A: Good day. 2 Q: You seem to wear interesting T-shirts. 3 The one (1) today, it says: Aboriginal Title is Sovereignty. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that correct? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I don't 7 know why that's necessary. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I wanted to ask 9 him about the T-shirt that he wore yesterday. Some people 10 may have noticed the picture on that T-shirt, Mr. 11 Commissioner, and I wanted to ask him about it. And -- thank 12 you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 17 Q: There was a picture of a person on the 18 front of your T-shirt yesterday; could you tell us who that 19 person is? 20 A: It is a picture of Dudley. It was a 21 picture he had taken himself, sometime before his death. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, we've heard a fair 23 amounts of evidence about the lands that constituted the 24 lands of the Stony Point First Nation, beginning with a 25 Treaty in 1827 and then so on. What is, briefly, your
811 understanding as to what the traditional lands of the Stony 2 Point First Nation were? 3 A: My belief is that they're a lot larger 4 than just this Ipperwash Military Reserve and Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park. As you're going through the history 6 documents that were presented, you might realize that we were 7 referred to as the River Aux Sable Band at one (1) time. 8 There is an article in there from when they 9 were canvassing the reserves to -- they tried to appropriate 10 some more of it. There -- there was a letter from a, I 11 believe, it's from a Member of the Walpole Island First 12 Nation. They were stating got to take the -- the land from 13 those guys at the -- the mouth of the Aux Sable. And -- and 14 we look on the map, the mouth of the Aux Sable, that's at 15 Grand Bend. 16 From what my grandpa had told me, that's -- 17 that also is part of our Reserve and however they had taken 18 it. They had taken it piece by piece and that Military 19 Reserve was the last of it to be taken. 20 Q: So, it's your understanding that the 21 lands promised in the 1827 Treaty are larger than the lands 22 that we've -- that are pictured as the Stony Point Reserve in 23 the documents we've seen? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, we've heard that you and your fellow
821 Stony Pointers began to reoccupy the Army Camp in 1993 and 2 then in 1995 extended that occupation to Ipperwash Provincial 3 Park. What portion of the lands that you indicate were Stony 4 Point First Nation lands, did the occupiers intend to occupy? 5 A: We were just intending to -- what we had 6 taken there is to deal with the Government, Government lands 7 that push -- that those lands be either shut down, like with 8 the Parks. The Government is making money off of our land at 9 our expense. 10 They were supposed to be holding that, Crown 11 lands, or whatever they want to call it, they were holding 12 that in trust, on our behalf and as it turned out, at the 13 time when we did occupy it, we weren't allowed to be on -- on 14 these lands, our own. 15 So, that was -- was a good part of why these 16 lands are chosen. The other is that it was the last -- it's 17 where the people had lived. You may look on the map, there's 18 a section of the Reserve where there's cottages. I heard 19 talk go out, people saying that the police were there to 20 protect the cottagers. 21 We had no intention, at least, I didn't, that 22 I know of, to -- to harm those people. But I know a lot of 23 our -- their -- our Elders, they knew what it was like to 24 have their homes taken and weren't about to inflict that on 25 others.
831 We knew that that land was legally taken by 2 us, but the people that were living there, it wasn't their 3 fault, they had been -- they had paid good money for their 4 lands too, so, we wouldn't -- wouldn't want to inflict on 5 them what was inflicted on us. 6 Q: I see. So, was there any intention, 7 then, to occupy anything beyond what was occupied as of late 8 on September 4th, 1995, namely the Park and the Army Camp? 9 A: No. We had hoped that that would be 10 enough to start some meaningful negotiations to start -- 11 start a reserve to get us recognised, to get us back to where 12 we were in '42 before the land was taken. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, there 15 were some pictures that were distributed to all Counsel that, 16 I believe, I should select to give to you. Thank you. 17 I should like to give a copy to you and I'm 18 not sure if Mr. Simon has -- 19 THE WITNESS: I have some. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't seen 21 these. I have no idea what these are. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
841 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There are several 2 pictures, Mr. Commissioner. I propose to have Mr. Simon 3 identity them and then request that they be made exhibits. I 4 hope that I've distributed them in the same order to 5 everyone. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay, Mr. Millar 10 suggested it be made one (1) exhibit. There are four (4) 11 pages here, and so I'll be suggesting that the person marking 12 the exhibits label them A, B, C, D in order as we go, and 13 then it'll be P whatever number we're up to. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Now, each one, except for the last one I 17 believe, has two (2) photographs on it, Mr. Simon and the 18 first one, I hope we're all on the same order. There's some 19 writing on -- underneath the first picture on the first page 20 that says, "Stony Point peace tree planting, 1993". 21 Do you have that picture in front of you, sir? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: And could you tell us what the picture on 24 the top of that page indicates, then? What it shows? 25 A: That's a picture of when that tree, the
851 peace tree, was being planted, what we talked about earlier. 2 In that picture you can see there's Dudley to the left side, 3 there's a guy with a hockey sweater, Number twenty-six (26), 4 he's -- Dudley's wearing black right beside him. 5 Q: Okay. And who -- who is number twenty- 6 six (26)? 7 A: That'd be Glen George -- uncle. 8 Q: That's Glen George. And you're 9 indicating that the man to his left is Dudley George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Is -- and where is the tree that's being 12 planted? 13 A: It's the one that's to the right of Glen. 14 Q: I'm sorry? 15 A: It's the one to the right of Glen. 16 Q: To the right of -- of number twenty-six 17 (26), Glen George? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: It's too bad everybody in the picture's 20 isn't wearing a number -- 21 A: Yeah -- 22 Q: -- we could identify them much more 23 easily. And are you, yourself, in this picture, sir? 24 A: Yeah, I'm further right of the tree, in 25 that white T shirt and jean shorts on.
861 Q: So you're about a third of the way from 2 the right, wearing a white T shirt and cut off jeans and 3 facing towards the tree; is that correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And below that is another picture. Could 6 you tell us what that shows, sir? 7 A: That picture below is a picture of the 8 graveyard inside the military part of the -- of Stony Point. 9 Q: I believe we'll have another picture of 10 that -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- later that might explain things in 13 addition. So, I would request that this page be labelled A. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This will be -- 15 THE REGISTRAR: One-o-five (105). 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit 105-A. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-105-A: Photographs of peace tree 19 planting and graveyard inside 20 Military Base. 21 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, Mr. 23 Commissioner. The pictures are not in the optimal order, two 24 (2) on a page but ... 25
871 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: If we turn to the next page, then, it 3 should be a picture labelled, "Peace tree planting, 1993". 4 Is that what you have in front of you, sir? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And is that an accurate description? Is 7 this another photograph of the peace tree planting? 8 A: Yes, it is. It's just a different angle 9 of a few different people. You notice to the left there's a 10 lady wearing a white hat. That'd be my grandmother, Melva 11 George. 12 Q: And the lady with her back to us? 13 A: Yeah, in the white -- 14 Q: And -- in the foreground on the left, is 15 Ms. Melva George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: We've heard a lot about. Is there anyone 18 else that you could -- 19 A: Another person I'd like to mention is the 20 older gentlemen in the centre of the picture -- 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: -- who's got his hands on his hip and a 23 blue hat on. That's Abraham George. 24 Q: Abraham George, also known as Hamster? 25 A: Yeah. He was -- at the time he was the
881 last living member who had actually owned land at Stony 2 Point. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: There was various others. I believe 5 that's my Aunt Cheryl (phonetic) there passing him a shovel. 6 It was talked about earlier, everybody had taken a part and 7 doing the digging of that tree. I think that -- that picture 8 was at the beginning of the ceremony. I think Hamster might 9 have -- may have been the first -- got the first shovel full 10 -- and it was right towards the beginning anyway. 11 Q: Right. Okay, thank you. And then 12 underneath that picture is another picture and it shows a 13 woman seated in a chair. Do you know who that woman is? 14 A: That woman, is again, my grandmother 15 Melva George. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: She's sitting at the base of the grave of 18 my grandfather, Daniel Ray George. That's where he was 19 buried in 1990. That fence you see there is basically going 20 pretty much through his grave site. That was obviously put 21 there after my grandfather had been buried in 1990 but before 22 we had moved in '93. 23 Q: I see. Is the grave itself where the 24 flowers are to -- 25 A: Yes.
891 Q: -- your Aunt Melva's left? 2 A: Yes. There's two (2) cedar trees planted 3 there. Those would be at -- at his feet. 4 Q: Yes. And -- 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Just to correct the 6 record. Melva is his grandmother not his aunt. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: I'm sorry. I think -- 10 A: Yeah. I didn't catch that. 11 Q: And you mentioned that the fence was 12 obviously erected after 1990 when the -- when the grave was 13 made? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And before 1993 when you entered the army 16 camp? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And what was your view of the fence in 19 that location? 20 A: It was erected at the time -- after my 21 grandfather be buried, there was a lot of attention brought 22 to the -- the appearance or the shape of the graveyard. 23 They'd -- and they were talking about starting to take care 24 of Native burial sites and stuff like that. 25 So, I guess that was the army's way of
901 protecting and marking off, putting up a chainlink fence 2 basically over top of a grave. That wasn't the entire 3 graveyard. I found out -- we found out later on that, purely 4 by accident, there's other graves on the other side of the 5 fence. 6 Since '93 there has been numerous burials on 7 that site on the background on the other side of fence; one 8 (1) being I believe it was Delphine (phonetic) Thomas. We'd 9 -- had been one of the members digging her grave and we'd 10 come across where there had been people buried before '42. 11 Obviously we had to pick another site. There 12 was no way of telling from the shape of the Park and all the 13 headstones or most of the headstones had been either shot or 14 removed at some time. It's fairly overgrown. The time of 15 this picture you notice the rake at my grandmother's feet 16 there. That was during a cleanup of the graveyard. 17 I believe it was my Uncle Mark George that 18 organized that, been instrumental in organizing it. So 19 that's the cause of this picture and the one you're looking 20 at on the page before, it's just, we were starting to 21 basically take care of it ourselves, now that we were allowed 22 to be in there. Or not allowed in there, we were just in 23 there. Army was still saying we're trespassing but it was -- 24 Q: Okay, thank you. Could that be page B 25 please.
911 THE REGISTRAR: P-105 B, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-105-B: Pictures of Peace Tree planting 4 and of Melva George at graveyard 5 in Military base. 6 7 CONTINUED BY ME. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: And then turning the page, the next page 9 should have a picture of an indoor scene with some people 10 sitting on a bench like structure; is that correct? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Now, could you tell us about that -- that 13 seat that several people are sitting on? 14 A: That bench there was made -- my Uncle Dan 15 -- Dan Jr., he had been taking up a bit of an art or a trade 16 that my grandfather and his -- his father had partaken when 17 they used to live on the base in '42, was the making of 18 furniture and axe handles and stuff like that. 19 That particular chair was our first attempt 20 since the retaking of Stoney Point. It's a --a white ash 21 chair. We got the -- the trees from out of the base. We had 22 used a -- a sawhorse and basically a vice that you can sit on 23 and hold the logs and use a draw knife to make -- create that 24 bench. 25 It's, I guess, more symbolic than anything of
921 the way -- the way we made it. It looks -- it's pretty crude 2 in its fashion, but it is a start and an attempt at 3 recreating that craftsmanship that had all been lost since 4 the taking of our lands in '42. 5 Q: And who were some of the people who 6 worked on the construction of that piece of furniture? 7 A: I -- I had mentioned my Uncle Dan who was 8 the one (1) that was teaching us how to -- basically how to 9 use that sawhorse and the draw knives. Myself, my brother 10 and Dudley and Warren George, Jr. were all people that had 11 taken part in making that -- that bench there. 12 Q: And where is this located in this scene? 13 A: That's inside the meeting hall and also 14 referred to as Argument Hall along Highway 21 inside the Army 15 Camp. 16 Q: I see. And can you tell us about what 17 year that was taken? 18 A: I believe that was in '94, too. 19 Q: I see. Thank you. And the picture below 20 it seems to show a -- a crowd behind a car. Can you tell us 21 what that's from? 22 A: That was a morning when everybody was 23 taking off on -- getting set to leave for the walk to Ottawa. 24 Q: We -- we've heard some evidence about 25 that walk and this was --
931 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- at the very beginning of it? 3 A: Yes. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And -- so -- sorry, may 5 that be page C, please? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-105, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-105-C: Two (2) Photographs of a chair 9 and crowd of people behind a car. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: And then, finally, the last page is a 13 single picture and it's headed, "Stoney Point Press 14 Conference 1993 Shortly after Helicopter Incident." 15 And were you present at that press conference, 16 sir? 17 A: I was in the background. I'm not in the 18 picture, up close. Never took part. 19 Q: Now, there was a particular reason that 20 you suggested, including this picture. Could you explain 21 that to us, sir? 22 A: Excuse me. At that start, as -- like it 23 says in '93, we had been taking part in trying to form our 24 own spokes -- spokesmanship or Chief and Council or whatever 25 you -- you would call it, I guess. We had this -- this press
941 conference to basically give our side of the story of what 2 was printed in the paper and elsewhere about the helicopter 3 being shot. They were saying they had had a raid -- raided 4 the property and they were saying that they found all these 5 spent shells and made it sound as if they were really onto 6 something. 7 At this conference, they had spent maybe ten 8 (10) minutes walking around the area and there was quite a 9 few spent shells and they asked if those are the same shells 10 that they had found, which it turned out, it was. 11 They are, as I'd shown on map P-40 where our 12 campsite was, was on the rifle range and that's at the start 13 and that's where the cadets -- army guys would be shooting 14 from for quite a number of years, so there was quite a few 15 shells and it's not just on the ranges, they were everywhere 16 through the property. 17 Q: So, the point was to show that there were 18 a lot of shells around there because it had been used as a 19 firing range by the Military? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: There's actually some in that picture. 23 They're not very clear. They're right by the microphone on 24 the picnic table. 25 Q: Yes?
951 A: There's quite a large pile there. 2 Q: Yes, if -- if one looks very carefully 3 and has slightly better eyesight than I do, you can see on 4 top of the microphone, three-quarters of the way along the 5 table from the front of the picture, there is a -- a pile of 6 shells; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: May I request that that be Exhibit D, 9 please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-105-D, Your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-105-D. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-105- D: Photograph entitled, "Stoney 14 Point Press 15 Conference 16 1993 Shortly 17 after 18 Helicopter 19 Incident". 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Thank you. Now, you've told us already, 23 some concern about the burials and about the way grave sites 24 on the military camp and Military Base had been treated. 25 Can you tell us just briefly, generally, what
961 is your concern and the concern of other First Nations people 2 with respect to burial sites? 3 A: Firstly, that they be treated with 4 respect, not desecrated in the way they were. The graveyard 5 on -- inside the camp, again referring to this map, P-40, you 6 can see where it's marked the motor range. 7 They'd shot from the south end, shooting 8 north, if you're to travel a bit more north, you'd come 9 across a roadway and realize that that's a direct line to 10 that cemetery, the one inside the base where my grandfather 11 and grandmother is buried. 12 The other grave site inside the Provincial 13 Park, I don't really know where it was because the same 14 thing, desecration. It was bulldozed, basically, before I 15 was born. There had been numerous others. 16 I remember hearing, well, you'd heard evidence 17 from my mother speaking when she was up here talking about 18 graveyard along -- or graves being found along Outer Drive. 19 I remember other ones being found on 20 Northville. Northville going back to Port Franks, there's a 21 large sand dune and it's still open to this day. Kids like 22 to play on that hill and stuff. It's high and lots of sand. 23 When they were creating that roadway, they dug 24 that hill down and I believe that's when, like, the sides of 25 that hill cave in more and there was -- graves were
971 discovered there. 2 Q: Now where is Northville in relation to 3 the -- say the Army camp? 4 A: It's further north on Highway 21. It's 5 the first community -- two (2) country blocks, a couple of 6 miles, I guess. 7 Q: And is that within what you described 8 earlier when you said what your full understanding was of 9 where the Stony Point First Nation was? 10 A: Is my understanding, yes. And more, 11 further up, too. I remember hearing about other grave sites 12 being found, it'd be the same ridge. If you followed that 13 ridge on the -- the burial ground inside the Military Base, 14 if you were to follow that ridge, walk along it or if you had 15 a means of flying a helicopter, every -- you'd have a better 16 view, I guess, you'd be able to see that that same ridge is a 17 ridge where these burial sites were found, Outer Drive and at 18 Northville and further on, going towards Grand Bend. 19 Q: Okay. I see. And how far from the Army 20 camp would Northville be, approximately? 21 A: I'm not too sure. Maybe a couple of 22 miles. 23 Q: Where is McPherson's restaurant? 24 A: That's directly in front of that hill, 25 right on the corner of the road that I'm talking about.
981 There's an intersection, a T-turn, of Highway 21 and the road 2 going back, leads into Port Franks. 3 Directly behind McPherson's there's a large 4 dune and I believe it was when they were paving that road in 5 the 80's -- early 80's or late 70's that -- that they had 6 discovered bones there. 7 And at that time there was -- they didn't have 8 the same, I guess now, or since then they've come up with a 9 -- a Cemeteries Protection Act, or whatever. 10 At that time, they didn't have things in place 11 to deal with, I guess, unmarked graves or Native burials and 12 apparently the work discontinued and they -- there was 13 nothing -- none -- they just -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- ignored it, basically. 16 Q: Are you familiar with a woman named Jean 17 Koenig? 18 A: Yes, I am. 19 Q: Could you tell us briefly about her, sir? 20 A: She's -- she'd been a friend of my 21 mothers for a number of years as they were growing up. She's 22 a bit of a activist, I guess. Her husband was a preacher in 23 the small town of Bedford at one (1) time. 24 She, herself, was a -- quite concerned with a 25 lot of these abuses of our -- of our traditional lands, the
991 Base, and particularly with the -- the burial sites. 2 She had undertaken a letter campaign, I guess, 3 with members of Government at one point, to try to raise 4 awareness to the Government that there should be a different 5 way of dealing with -- with these burials instead of just 6 bulldozing them and moving them. And -- 7 Q: And did she provide you with any 8 documents related to this issue? 9 A: She gave me a copy of quite a few of the 10 letters she had written. I believe you have some there. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, Mr. Commissioner, 12 I propose to introduce this as the next exhibit. I have -- I 13 have -- copies have been distributed to all Counsel. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 Sulman...? All Counsel do have copies of these letters? Mr. 16 Sulman, do you want to... 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: The microphone. 18 OBJ MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yes, I got it, sir. Mr. 19 Commissioner, I'm not sure where -- well, I think I know 20 where Mr. Rosenthal's going with this, but I object to the 21 relevance of the admission of the documents themselves. 22 What he's about -- I'm not sure whether they 23 are in front of you, Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I've just 25 been handed them.
1001 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: They are -- all the 2 documents that I'm objecting to are those that are written to 3 the Premier of Ontario, and the document you'll see, there is 4 also one from Bill Rye (phonetic) that -- who is the Member 5 of Parliament, Provincial Parliament for Windsor-Sandwich at 6 the time of the writing. 7 What we don't have -- first, the relevance of 8 the letters is open to some question. I think we all know, 9 you can take judicial notice of it if you will, but there are 10 burial grounds throughout the Province of Ontario, indeed 11 throughout North America, and we had historical evidence at 12 the outset from an expert on -- on this matter. 13 We know that burial grounds have been 14 disturbed. These letters don't -- not in furtherance of 15 that, we know that in fact Hawshilega (phonetic) is now 16 Montreal. There were burial grounds in Manhattan. 17 We know that there was disturbance, we heard 18 evidence, historical evidence at the outset, that the village 19 that is now -- there was a Native Village in Detroit, which 20 is now a modern city. 21 So, we know that there's been disturbances. 22 The difficulty here is that we have a 1979 letter to the 23 Premier, but we don't have the letter from Mrs. Koenig. 24 So, we don't know what she -- all we have is a 25 response, we have no idea what she was asking. And none of
1011 the letters that are being submitted show what Mrs. Koenig is 2 asking, they're simply responses. 3 It seems that, and if you will look at the 4 letters themselves, you will note that Mrs. Koenig is writing 5 not from Bedford, Ontario, not from any area that is 6 proximate to the Ipperwash Military Reserve at the time, but 7 rather from a place called Old Castle, Ontario. 8 And that makes sense, because she's writing 9 Mr. Rye, who is the MPP for Windsor-Sandwich, and Old Castle 10 is a little hamlet at the edge of the City of Windsor, in the 11 -- then the Township of Sandwich. 12 And what she's writing about, we don't know, 13 but it -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But how do you 15 know they're written from Old Castle? 16 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Because it says -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where? 18 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: She's copied each time 19 by the Premier -- if you look at the second one in, you'll 20 see at the bottom. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I see. 22 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Mrs. Jean Koenig, 23 R.R. 1, Old Castle. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A return 25 address.
1021 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: We don't have what she's 2 asking, but we do know where the return address is going, and 3 we not only see that one (1) time but you see it the next 4 time, three (3) letters in from Bill Rye at the Legislative 5 Assembly, Mrs. Jean Koenig, St. Stephens Rectory, R.R. 1, Old 6 Castle, which I guess would be consistent with what Mr. Simon 7 just said, is that she's a Rector's wife. 8 And St. Stephen's Rectory's is in fact the 9 Anglican Parish in Old Castle. Having practised in Windsor, 10 I can -- 11 THE WITNESS: May I interrupt for a second, 12 there? Just to comment on what you're saying? 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I'd like -- actually, 14 no, I frankly -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll get a 16 chance in a minute, but let's hear the end of the objection 17 and then we'll give Mr. Rosenthal a chance. You'll get a 18 chance to say something. Yes? 19 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: So, the Objection is 20 that -- that we're seeing one-half of the conversation. Even 21 in the 1937 documents, that have been presented to you in 22 letter form, we saw both sides of -- of the letter writing. 23 Here we only have a response from the Premier 24 and all the Premier's saying is -- in the letters and I don't 25 think this should be anything more than what it is, it's
1031 simply saying that there's a Bill that's about to revise the 2 Cemeteries Act. 3 These are 1979, 1978 letters. The fact is and 4 we've already heard that mentioned too that the Cemeteries 5 Act has been revised. But anything beyond -- my -- my 6 concern is that the implication may be that oh, uh huh, the 7 Premier of Ontario at the time Bill Davis, has recognized 8 that there's an issue at the Ipperwash Military Base. 9 And I think that that kind of -- I mean there 10 -- there's numerous documents that are unrelated. You've got 11 enough documents and someone described it as a document dump 12 at one point, you have enough documents that are relevant but 13 now you've got documents that I suggest you would respect 14 aren't relevant to the issues at hand. It's simply the 15 responses of letters apparently from a Mrs. Koenig. 16 But we don't have the writer's of the 17 documents here although I don't know whether Mrs. Koenig's 18 still alive, but I do know that Mr. Davis is. I do know that 19 Mr. Rye is and we have none of the people who can actually -- 20 who have some connection to it other than the witness who 21 says we got some copies of documents from Mrs. Koenig. 22 But we don't have both sides of the story and 23 this is a search for truth and I'm afraid that when we get 24 documents that aren't tied into the -- the case at hand, may 25 only be in relation to an incident in -- in the Windsor area.
1041 And in fact when we read the -- the newspaper article which 2 I'm not at this point objecting to, it relates to the 3 construction of the EC Row Expressway (phonetic) in Windsor. 4 And that's -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that what 6 that newspaper -- because I haven't read the newspaper. 7 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: That's -- well I 8 understand that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But that's what 10 the newspaper articles refer to? 11 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well it -- it refers to 12 desecration of burial sites. In particular it has a 13 reference to the EC Row Expressway which was constructed at 14 the same time -- it's right near Old Castle. But we don't -- 15 you see the problem is I'm speculating now, Mr. Commissioner 16 because we don't have the writer, and that's wrong. We -- we 17 shouldn't be speculating. 18 We should either have both sides of the 19 correspondence or we should have it introduced properly 20 through the writers. Or either Mrs. Koenig or Premier Davis 21 or Bill Rye. Or if the issue was simply the Cemeteries Act 22 and how it's been revised I -- well I don't know all the 23 evidence that will be called sometime in the future, there 24 are Government witnesses who can speak to the revisions in 25 the Cemeteries Act.
1051 That's how this evidence should properly go 2 in. I -- I know that the Rules of Evidence that one would 3 find in a courtroom are not applicable here and the tendency 4 is to give a liberal treatment to the Rules of Evidence, such 5 that one could say -- there's a tendency to say, well we'll 6 accept the evidence and we can weigh its value at some point 7 in time. 8 The difficulty with that is we head down the 9 road sometimes where prob -- evidence that has no probative 10 value goes in and it leads us down a path away from the truth 11 and towards speculation. 12 And so, it's my respectful submission that 13 this evidence should not go in on the form it is through the 14 Witness that's before us. If we want to have the evidence 15 submitted, it should either be through Mrs. Koenig or the 16 writers of the letters or if it's just about the Cemeteries 17 Act, through a witness called by Commission counsel from the 18 government from the Ministry. 19 And those are my submissions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your -- your 21 objection isn't so much that the material might be relevant 22 and might be admissible, it's just not through this witness? 23 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, we could at least 24 determine whether it was relevant and admissible if we had 25 the proper witness. One of the difficulties with -- with
1061 documentary evidence, Mr. Commissioner, always is that it 2 should be subject to examination. 3 And you can't -- it's difficult to examine 4 documentary evidence and cross-examine the person putting it 5 in if they are not either the writer or the recipient or have 6 a substantial connection and we don't have any of that here. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay I suppo -- 8 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 10 much. I -- I need to hear from others. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think Mr. Ross -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps I should 13 hear from people who are supporting the objection before I 14 hear from -- from you, Mr. Rosenthal. Is anybody -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If there are any. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 17 supporting the objection are or are you supporting -- 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Definitely not, definitely 19 not. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? Okay, I'll 21 let you -- 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I've got something to say, 23 but not in support of that objection. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well is there 25 anybody else who believes that these documents should not be
1071 admitted through this Witness? I think I'd like to hear from 2 you. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well perhaps -- as I 4 understand Mr. Sulman's concern, it's with the letters, the 5 January 31st, December 24th of 1979, May 25th of 1982, 6 January 22nd, 1983 and December 17th, 1982. 7 And, frankly, I agree with Mr. Sulman that the 8 letters --we have one (1) side of the story. 9 We don't have the letters written by Ms. 10 Koenig to which the officials are responding to and it would 11 seem to me that before these letters were admitted that the 12 -- both sides of the correspondence should be before us. 13 And I'm happy to discuss with Mr. Rosenthal, 14 once we see the other side of the -- the story, the letters 15 that were written, whether or not it would be appropriate to 16 call a witness or deal with the letters. 17 But I think that just these letters that were 18 written to Ms. -- Mrs. Koenig and others without the other 19 side of the correspondence should not be admitted at this 20 time. 21 I don't think that Mr. Sulman has any 22 objection, as from what I understood him to say, to the two 23 (2) articles. The two (2) articles are simply newspaper 24 articles and they, frankly -- the one (1) of October -- July 25 24th, I believe it's 1984 refers to Port Franks. It refers
1081 to the -- this particular area at Camp Ipperwash. 2 The second article of August 6th, 1984 written 3 by Ms. Koenig, again refers to the -- this area. It also, as 4 My Friend, Mr. Sulman said, refers to Windsor and the EC Row 5 Expressway but I have no objection to the marking of these 6 two (2) articles. 7 They're simply that - newspaper articles, and 8 -- but I do object to these letters. At this point, I think 9 that My Friend, Mr. Rosenthal, would get the other side of 10 the correspondence. 11 He and I can discuss it and, if appropriate, 12 decide how they should be dealt with. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 14 satisfied with that resolution at this time? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry. Mr. Ross wanted 18 -- perhaps he should speak before I do, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are -- do we 20 know if Mrs. Koenig is still available? Do we know that she 21 would be able to be called as a witness if necessary? Do we 22 know that? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I presume that -- 24 that -- frankly, I don't know. I haven't spoken to Ms. 25 Koenig. I can't speak to everyone who My Friends decide
1091 they'll get newspaper art -- art -- this man was three (3) 2 years old when these written -- these letters were written. 3 He was four (4) years old at the time of 4 another one (1) and the -- but I understand from Mr. 5 Rosenthal and from what Mr. Simon said that Mrs. Koenig is 6 still around and still alive and -- but it's simply putting 7 in one (1) side of the story; it's just inappropriate. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. Who 9 do I need to hear from. I'm -- 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Do we want to -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'd prefer to 12 hear from just Mr. Rosenthal, if that's possible. If you can 13 make the response. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: May I ask Mr. Simon? 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Is Ms. Koenig alive and very well, as far 18 as you know? 19 A: She's still alive. 20 Q: Is she -- 21 A: As far as well, I'm not so sure. 22 Q: -- is she an older woman? 23 A: Yes, she is. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, my 25 instinct, for what it's worth before you even use that, is
1101 that we should try to find somebody more appropriate to bring 2 these letters in to. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Mr. Commissioner, 6 with respect, may I speak to that issue. My Friend, both of 7 My Friends misapprehend the reason that I wish to introduce 8 this. 9 Certainly it would not be for an implication 10 such as was suggested that this shows that Premier Bill Davis 11 recognized the issue in Ipperwash. That would not be an 12 inference that one could draw from these letters in any 13 proper way and I would not suggest that you draw that 14 inference. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I have a 16 -- I haven't had a chance to really read the letters yet. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd had just a 19 quick glance at them. I don't think that a conclusion that 20 somebody might not draw just reading them -- somebody might 21 draw that. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, I -- I wasn't 23 introducing it for that purpose. If I was, then, I agree it 24 would be improper to introduce it for that purpose. I was 25 introducing it, primarily, for the following purpose.
1111 Some of My Friends have put to some First 2 Nations witnesses what appeared to be an implication that 3 raising burial grounds is something just done after the fact 4 as an issue that there wasn't any prior concerns about burial 5 grounds and so on. 6 And this -- these letters were -- I wanted to 7 submit, solely so that I could then argue that there was and, 8 for example, a good friend of Mrs. Simon -- Marcia Simon -- 9 who was one (1) of the people very concerned about Stony 10 Point as we've heard from her evidence and from others, for 11 years, an old friend of hers, for example, was one (1) of the 12 people who wrote to Premier Davis about the issue. 13 And there was concern going back as long ago 14 as 1979, as indicated by these letters and also the objection 15 that we don't have the other side of the correspondence; we 16 don't know what she wrote. 17 Well, the first paragraph of the first letter, 18 January 31st, 1979, from William Davis to Ms. Koenig says: 19 "This will acknowledge your recent letter 20 in which you express concern about the 21 protection of native burial grounds." 22 And that was the purpose I wanted, just that 23 -- that there was concern about protection of native burial 24 grounds and the second sentence from Premier Davis was: 25 "Because of the many letters I have
1121 received on this matter, I've taken the 2 liberty of sending, essentially, the same 3 response to all those who are concerned." 4 And I would be content, with just that first 5 letter. The -- the others were all handed to Mr. Simon by 6 Ms. Koenig, but the first letter does speak for itself as to 7 what Premier Davis is responding to, and it does demonstrate, 8 on behalf of Ms. Koenig and many others, concern about this 9 issue going back to January 31st, 1979, and for that limited 10 purpose, in my view, it's relevant. 11 There's never -- we had a lot of one (1) sided 12 documents introduced in the course of this Inquiry. I don't 13 have one in my mind offhand, but we -- we often don't have 14 both sides of a correspondence and I'm really quite surprised 15 that it's being raised now at this late date as -- as an 16 objection to introducing this. 17 Now, if -- if Ms. Koenig is able to attend, I 18 would welcome her attendance at this Inquiry. The only 19 reason I don't want to agree with the compromise your Counsel 20 suggested is, I'm not sure that she is able to attend and I 21 do think it's important to have this in for the purposes that 22 I mentioned. 23 And furthermore, Ms. Koenig, who's the person 24 addressed in the first letter is also the author of the 25 second of the articles that everyone agrees should be
1131 admissible and that ties it to -- at least she had an 2 interest in Stony Point a couple of years later and so on, 3 too. 4 So, for that limited purpose, I would 5 respectfully submit that this is clearly admissible by the 6 standards that have been used in this Inquiry for other 7 documents and the objections taken could be said much louder 8 with respect to many of the documents that have already been 9 admitted at this Inquiry. 10 Now, I -- Mr. Simon, perhaps, would have more 11 eloquently represented our position that me. He indicated 12 that he wanted to say something and I don't know what it is 13 and I -- I would ask him -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't you 15 ask him? 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- ask that he be given 17 the opportunity to say that, as well. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't you 19 ask him what he wants to say? Ask him what he wants to say. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: So, Mr. Simon, I'm not sure, you -- you 23 had some point that you were going to raise. 24 A: I just wanted to say -- 25 Q: Do you recall what it was?
1141 A: I just wanted to state that when he was 2 talking about Jean Koenig, the address was from Old Castle. 3 That's where -- yeah, she was working from, but she was from 4 -- living in the Bedford area when I'd gotten those letter 5 from her and I believe she lived there before, so -- but you 6 pretty much stated -- 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: -- that it's just a deal with the -- the 9 -- the way our burial sites have been treated in past years 10 and it wasn't just my ancestors, there was a lot of other 11 people that had a concern with the way that they are treated 12 and it's not about ones in other great cities. These are 13 right here in -- in our territory that we're dealing with 14 with this Inquiry, the ones that Dudley stood up and died 15 for. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Did you 17 have any other questions? 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: Well, apparently yes. Thank you. You 22 mentioned that Ms. Koenig was a friend of your mother's, did 23 -- did she -- where did they see each other, do you know? 24 A: I'm not too sure how they made 25 acquaintances. Like one (1) gentleman pointed out I was
1151 three (3) or four (4) at the time. 2 Q: I see. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, I 3 think those would be our -- our submissions about the 4 admissibility of this document. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do you 6 have any other material that you want to submit. I -- I want 7 to sort of reserve on that one (1) document for a moment. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If there's 10 something that we -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we -- we've 13 agreed that the two(2) -- the two (2) articles can go in, why 14 don't we put them in? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. So, perhaps we 16 could make those exhibits for now. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we do 18 that? And -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And then -- may I 20 respectfully suggest then that the -- the article by Luanne 21 LaSalle of The Free Press entitled, "Chief Says Council 22 Deserve To Know Burial Remains Found" be admitted as -- the 23 next exhibit, sir? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 25 one-o-six (106).
1161 THE REGISTRAR: P-106. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-106 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-106: The Free Press news article 5 entitled "Chief Says Council 6 Deserve To Know Burial Remains 7 Found". 8 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And then the article by 10 Ms. Jean Koenig entitled, "History Of The Aboriginal Peoples 11 Shouldn't Be Desecrated" will be the next exhibit. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This will be 13 one-o-seven (107_. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-107, yes. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-107: News article entitled, "History 17 Of The Aboriginal 18 Peoples Shouldn't Be Desecrated". 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, I -- I have 21 to confess. I haven't read these two (2) articles. So, I'd 22 like to read them. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Well I -- may I 24 just -- I respectfully submit that I should like all of the 25 letters admitted as an exhibit but would be content if the
1171 first one (1) were -- were let in. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's just 3 reserve on the -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- on the letter 6 or letters for the time being. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay, thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want to 9 complete your -- your examination of the Witness, so we can 10 decide where we go from there? Are you -- you still have 11 other questions? 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh yes. Yes. So, I'll 13 just move on to other areas and -- although perhaps I should 14 point out. I believe it was pointed out in the discussion 15 that the two (2) newspaper articles that were admitted do 16 talk about the finding of apparent grave site and burials at 17 Northville as Mr. Simon had talked about prior to my 18 introducing the articles. 19 So I won't -- I'll move to another topic then 20 if I may, sir? 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Now, the next document that I want to 24 discuss is an exhibit already and that's Exhibit P-102 which 25 is the letter that Mr. Simon received that was addressed to
1181 him as Native Activist Kettle Point Bank, care of Kettle 2 Point Bank. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't know if you 4 have a copy of that letter in front of you, Mr. Commissioner? 5 It's been made an exhibit P-102 already. 6 And, Mr. Simon, do you have a copy in front of 7 you? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. Just have to find 9 it. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now, Mr. Commissioner, 11 this document was made an exhibit by your Counsel in course 12 of his examination of Mr. Simon. And your Counsel didn't 13 read any of the letter and I understand why he didn't because 14 it's a repugnant letter to read. But in my respectful 15 submission it -- it's important to discuss the content of the 16 letter as well and -- and that's what I propose to do. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: So, Mr. Simon, do you have the letter in 20 front of you? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: The -- the cover page is a photograph of 23 the envelope evidently. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And as Mr. Millar indicated it says,
1191 "Received August 26th, '93" and you told us that was your 2 mother's handwriting? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And then if one looks carefully at the 5 postmark, it's postmarked on the 23rd of August, 1993, 6 correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, if one then looks at the letter 9 itself, it appears that there are three (3) pages? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And they're not numbered but -- do we 12 have the correct order of the pages as you received them or? 13 A: I don't know, I'm pretty sure that's the 14 same order I received them. 15 Q: I see, okay. And in the order that we do 16 have them, the first page reads: "You work or do..." and 17 then, can you make out the words after the do, for sure? 18 Did you know what that meant? 19 A: I'm not too sure what he was -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- referring to there. 22 Q: And then it says: 23 "Like most Indians, drink, beat your wife, 24 abuse wife and kids, don't want to work, 25 you're all fucking lazy."
1201 Is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Is that what you read in 1993? 4 A: That's what I read. 5 Q: And the next page: 6 "Your parents, scum like you? Your mother 7 a whore, your father a pimp, you part 8 nigger. Fuck you, you piece of shit." 9 Is that what it says? 10 A: I believe so. 11 Q: And the next page: 12 "You Indian piece of shit, maybe next time 13 the soldiers will lynch you. You Indians 14 are the same as niggers, fucking scum." 15 Is that right? 16 A: I believe that's what it says. 17 Q: How did you feel when you got this 18 letter, sir? 19 A: How would anybody feel? I had mentioned, 20 when I -- when we first talked about this, that I had 21 received, just after it had been in the paper, I think you 22 mentioned the post date, was for the 23rd of August, the same 23 day that it was in the paper for what happened with my shed. 24 And you had said it's something that we feel 25 happens the way our people are treated when -- when we are in
1211 the paper. The part about being lynched by soldiers, I feel 2 that was a reference to what was said in that article. The 3 soldiers were there taking my stuff. 4 So, I took it as a threat to me personally, 5 but... 6 Q: Now, sir, was there any other racial 7 harassment of you and your -- and/or your colleagues during 8 the period 1993 to 1995? 9 A: Yes, there was. There was numerous 10 people that would stop along the highway as we were camped 11 out, just pull over to the side of the road and yell out, 12 whatever -- whatever came to their mind, I guess. Usually 13 along the same lines as that letter. 14 Numerous times on the beach, we talked about 15 people coming on to that military beach in the Park, 16 encountered the same attitude numerous times, from several 17 different individuals. 18 Q: Now, sir, we've had evidence from one or 19 several of your fellow occupiers, that they or others carried 20 baseball bats in their cars, sometimes because they were 21 concerned about rednecks, I believe was the expression used. 22 Now, were you aware of that, sir? 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: And did you yourself carry anything? 25 A: I didn't personally have a bat or
1221 anything like that, but I -- in the line of work I'm in, I 2 usually have a framing hammer or a piece of wood or 3 something, some sort of stuff to -- if I need. 4 Q: And over what period of time, as far as 5 years, was -- was there this concern? 6 A: Still experience it a bit to this day, 7 but not as much as mainly in those early years when we moved 8 into the -- the Base in the Park. Not so much after the 9 Park, though. Things seemed to calm down a bit, but we still 10 get the odd person come in there. 11 Q: So, am I summarizing you correctly to 12 say, it was primarily during the years 1993 to '95, but 13 there's been some, although much less, since then? 14 A: Yeah, I'd say so. 15 Q: Now, we've heard the -- that there were 16 supporters of the Stony Point people that came from other 17 First Nations and so on, and also some non-Native supporters; 18 is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what was your -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Rosenthal, I 22 don't want to interrupt you. Mr. Rosenthal, I won't 23 interrupt you, but we're adjourning today at 3:30 and it's 24 already after 12:00. I'm just wondering, how much longer 25 will you be, so we can sort of figure out when to take a
1231 lunch break? 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I expect to be about 3 ten (10), fifteen (15) minutes, sir. I'm in your hands as 4 far as lunch, but I expect ten (10), fifteen (15) minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just trying 6 to break the day up if we're adjourning at 3:30 -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Yes -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we should 9 probably take an early -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I'm in your hands, 11 sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 13 would be as good a time as any to adjourn for lunch. If we 14 adjourn now, we'll be coming back after 1:00 and then we 15 don't have that much of an afternoon, so I think this is a 16 good time to break at. 17 Do you have any objections? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, but perhaps, 19 Commissioner, so that for the purposes of planning, including 20 Mr. Simon, that we could canvass the parties to see who's 21 going to cross-examine and how long they might be. If we 22 could do that at this time? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Do you 24 have the list out. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I do.
1241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We 2 haven't heard all of the evidence yet, because Mr. 3 Rosenthal's still going, but who expects to be cross- 4 examining Mr. Simon? 5 I'm sorry, I have a difficult time seeing. 6 All right, how long do you think you might be on behalf of 7 the estate? 8 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Forty (40) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. Ross? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No more than ten (10) 11 minutes. Probably five (5). 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. The 13 Ontario Provincial Police, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Forty-five (45) to 15 sixty (60) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. Roland? 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: It'll be an hour and a half. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 19 can't hear you. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: One and a half (1 1/2). 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, we're 22 obviously not going to get done today. Ms. McAleer? 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thirty (30) to 24 forty-five (45) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry?
1251 MS. SATINDER BESERAI: Yes, Ms. Beserai on 2 behalf of the Coroner's Office. Perhaps just a few minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. Sulman? 4 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Rather than bark from 5 back there, ten (10) to fifteen (15) minutes, your Honour. 6 And I should point out, I will leave Mr. Hinnegan cross- 7 examining if it's this afternoon, and I would like to excuse 8 myself at noon. In the event that your ruling on the 9 objection is this afternoon, I won't be here to receive it, 10 so... 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 14 much. Yes, Mr. Roland, do you want to say something before 15 we adjourn? 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: So, that I understand the 17 proceeding this afternoon, I take it your going to rule on 18 the -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh yes. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- objection over lunch? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: And does Mr. Rosenthal have 23 further questions that -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he said he 25 did --
1261 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he had 3 another ten (10) or fifteen (15) minutes at least. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: With respect to that -- 5 those letters? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or with respect 7 to his -- he's examining him. I get the impression that he's 8 examining this Witness now but he still has the right to do a 9 clean up at the end. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, I appreciate that, 11 sir. I do have a couple of other areas. I won't examine any 12 further with respect to that letter. I think in the context 13 the letter speaks for itself. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've a couple 17 of other areas, but the impression I have is you really -- 18 you're doing your examination of this Witness now, subject to 19 your right to clean up at the end? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, I -- I do have two 21 (2) other brief areas, sir, but -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going to 23 do that now? I mean right after lunch, I mean? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, that's right, yes. 25 Sorry, that's why I said ten (10) minutes perhaps.
1271 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what I 2 thought. All right. Thank you very much. 3 We'll reconvene at what time? 1:25? is that 4 an hour and a quarter? Do we need an hour and a quarter? We 5 do. We need an hour -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think My Friends -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and a 8 quarter -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- need an hour and a 10 quarter -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because these 12 guys got to go to a restaurant and you need time to go and 13 come back. So, we'll reconvene at 1:25. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands adjourned 15 until 1:25. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 12:12 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 21 Please be seated. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't you 23 complete your examination and then we'll deal with the issue? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Certainly. Thank you, 25 sir. Good afternoon.
1281 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: Now, as we were so politely interrupted 5 for lunch, I was in the process of asking you about 6 supporters and I believe there was an indication that there 7 were among supporters other than Stony Pointers, there were 8 First Nations people and some non-First Nations people as 9 well; is that correct? 10 A: Yes, that's correct. 11 Q: Could you just give us a rough idea about 12 the supporters? 13 A: There had been at various times different 14 people would come around on the May of '93 when we were out 15 on the ranges. Maybe even a little later but that first 16 summer of '93. 17 We had the fire, I was talking about that 18 yesterday a bit, there was people that had come down there. 19 Some were non Native supporters. There was people had come 20 as far away as the Chatham area and believe ones that own the 21 pizza joint there showed up all hours of the night. Usually 22 after their businesses close and bring food stuff like that . 23 And other ones on the back roads on the way to Sarnia. 24 In the course of that summer, that following 25 fall, I noticed quite a number of them people had not come
1291 around anymore. I remember the one person in particular had 2 come around maybe a year later. We remember Dudley was 3 asking how come they hadn't been around in such a long time. 4 They related a story to us about being raided, 5 their house being raided, their greenhouse being rummaged 6 through, their tomato plants being uprooted and stuff. Just 7 stuff like that. It was -- 8 Q: Being raided by whom? 9 A: By the OPP. My belief was that and their 10 belief as well was that there was connection of -- from their 11 support of what we were doing there in Stony. 12 Q: Now, you told us about going to the 13 Ministry of Natural Resources' parking lot and seeing the 14 St. John's vehicle there. Was there anything else of note 15 that you saw when you went there? 16 A: Besides those vehicles, we were walking 17 around we noticed there was a large quantity of booze bottles 18 that were towards the back of the parking lot. I don't know, 19 the reason I went back there. But when we were back there 20 you could see that some were older bottles and broken, been 21 there maybe a number of months or perhaps longer. 22 But, the majority of the ones that I'd taken 23 note of, they were fairly new. It looked like they had been 24 discarded there just recently. So -- that would have led a 25 lot of -- lot of people, myself included that -- believe that
1301 they were from the police. 2 Q: And then my final question at this point, 3 I will have the right to re-examine you later. How many 4 different occasions are you aware of that Dudley George got 5 threatened by OPP officers in the course of the occupation of 6 the Park? 7 A: During the occupation of the Park, I 8 believe that there was, like, three (3) separate times. The 9 one I was witness, I told you about, on the night of the 5th. 10 Dudley related to me later that on the morning of the 6th 11 also when he was out there, I guess it would've been when 12 they were taking the picnic tables away that he had also been 13 threatened at that time. So -- 14 Q: Okay. I -- I forget did you tell us what 15 he told you about that threat, yesterday. 16 A: Well, that was basically the same as what 17 I had witnessed on the night of the 5th, was that, they he 18 said he was going to be the first. And they didn't really 19 say the first of what, they just said he was going to be the 20 first and -- 21 Q: So, that's -- that's what Dudley told you 22 he had been told by an OPP officer on the morning of 23 September 6th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And then you say there was a third
1311 occasion that you were aware of? 2 A: I had been told, I wasn't witness to 3 that, I wasn't too sure when it had taken place, but there 4 was a, like I said, a number of times where he had been 5 threatened. 6 Q: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. 7 Commissioner. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you Commissioner. 9 We -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think I should 11 deal with the question of your -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- your document 14 now, if I may. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I'm not 17 going to ask for Mr. Ross to make a submission at this time 18 because I am essentially not going to either admit or reject 19 the document at this particular point. My sense is that it's 20 difficult to tell from reading a document at this moment, 21 whether it is relevant or it isn't. 22 I kind of think it might be, given who it's 23 written to and her relationship with Mrs. Simon. But what 24 I'm going to suggest is that Mr. Millar and you confer and 25 find a more appropriate witness to introduce this document.
1321 We that Mr. Simon just turned two (2) years 2 old when this document was written and I suspect that there 3 would be a more appropriate witness that this document could 4 be introduced through, and ask you to do it at that time. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. I can inform 6 you that over lunch time, I conferred with two (2) of my 7 other clients who are here today, Darryl (phonetic) Stonefish 8 and Cheryl Stonefish, and they tell me that Mrs. Koenig is 9 alive and well, she's an older the woman, and in fact she 10 attended at the very beginning of this Inquiry. 11 And Darryl Stonefish tells me that he can put 12 me in contact with her, he thinks, and so I shall find out 13 that contact information and inform your Counsel and I hope 14 that she -- she would obviously be an appropriate to speak to 15 us. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you very much. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. Rosenthal. Yes, sir? Good day. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simon. 23 A: Good day. 24 Q: My name is Vilko Zbogar, I'm one of the 25 lawyers for the estate of Dudley George and members of
1331 Dudley's family. 2 The first area I want to ask you about is 3 where you ended up your answers to -- to Mr. Millar earlier 4 today, you were talking about the ambulance vehicle in the 5 -- in some distance from the Park. I'm going to ask you a 6 couple of follow-up questions about it. 7 I've asked Mr. Millar to pull up a document 8 which is, for the record, Inquiry Document Number 2001174, 9 and it's page 122 of that document. 10 Now, this was, also for the record, and for 11 the benefit of Counsel, this was part of the materials listed 12 for a previous witness, Stacey Bernard George, and is at 13 Tab 16 of that document. 14 I've asked for some hard copies to be made of 15 that, I don't know if they're available for your benefit and 16 ease of reference. Do you... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I know you haven't seen this document 21 before, so maybe I'll give you just a couple of minutes to 22 review it quickly. I just have a couple of very, very short 23 questions about it. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1341 A: That's all of it right? 2 Q: That's the one (1) page, yes. 3 A: All right. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you had a 5 chance to read it. 6 THE WITNESS: Oh yeah, I was reading it -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see it on the 8 screen. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 11 Q: Just very quickly -- we'll let's read the 12 first paragraph. It says: 13 "During the week of August 28th, 1995, I 14 was instructed by Inspector J. Carson of 15 the Ontario Provincial Police of Number 2 16 District requesting the help of St. John's 17 Ambulance Brigade, Lampton, London, 18 Middlesex Emergency Support Team in the 19 form of our communication and command 20 unit". 21 Then it goes on to say: 22 "Inspector Carson was quite sure that our 23 unit could be used as a communications 24 centre, in close contact with the Ontario 25 Provincial Police command post set up in
1351 Forest, Ontario. 2 The unit would be placed in the beach area 3 outside of Ipperwash Provincial Park for an 4 anticipated night of occupation which might 5 take place the following week". 6 And later on in that document, if we can 7 scroll down a little bit. Maybe up one (1) paragraph. Later 8 on, it says that: 9 "In the early morning of September 5th, we 10 received a call through our Ministry of 11 Health pagers that the Ontario Provincial 12 Police were requesting our communications 13 unit to report to Forest, Ontario 14 Detachment." 15 And then I won't read the rest of it, but it 16 talks about a dispatch of a communications unit, Number 444, 17 as well as Unit Number 406 as a support vehicle. 18 Now, I understand from the evidence that you 19 gave, that you had seen and actually gone into a vehicle 20 that, on the outside, looked to be a St. John's vehicle; is 21 that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, I just want to make sure we're 24 talking about the same thing, or maybe we're not. I want -- 25 did you see any equipment on that vehicle that was -- that
1361 you thought could be used for communications? 2 Was it -- basically, does it sound like this 3 vehicle as described here was the one that you saw in that 4 area? 5 A: It very well could have. I didn't really 6 see no antennas or anything like that, but I'm not really a 7 specialist with what they need for communications. It sounds 8 to be like it is. You had that picture of that trailer up 9 there earlier, if that's the same one then... 10 Q: Did you see any other St. John's vehicles 11 around at this time? 12 A: I'm pretty sure it was just the two (2), 13 like that -- that trailer and the van. 14 Q: You told us that on September 5th of 1995 15 there was an incident along or close to the fence of the 16 Provincial Park where some -- an officer or some officers 17 were saying things like, Welcome to Canada, and, Dudley, 18 you'll be the first. 19 You also said that there was some, I think as 20 you described it, racist things that were being said by the 21 OPP, or members of the OPP. 22 Now, those racists things, they were said by 23 several officers; is that right? 24 A: Oh yeah, there was a few that were -- 25 there was one in particular that was doing most of the
1371 talking. But there was others that were saying stuff, too. 2 Q: And they were obviously directing it at 3 you and the other occupiers? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And they're -- I imagine they were 6 yelling these -- these things at you? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: They called you things like wagon 9 burners? 10 A: All sorts of stuff like that, yeah. 11 Q: What other sorts of stuff? 12 A: Wahoo's -- any kind of stuff like that, 13 reference of a -- just degrading references to our ancestry, 14 I guess. 15 Q: Do you recall any specific examples or 16 words or phrases? 17 A: Not off hand besides ones that I have 18 already given. 19 Q: Lots of -- were there lots of swear words 20 mixed into that too? 21 A: A bit, yeah. 22 Q: Did they suggest things like you were all 23 drunk or lazy or those sorts of things? 24 A: Could have. Like I said, I'm not 100 25 percent sure of what they were saying but there was a few
1381 things that did stick out. Like they said the wagon burner 2 thing and when they pointed out Dudley that was -- that 3 wasn't the one that really stuck out. That was basically the 4 end of it too because he promptly got a face full of sand. 5 Q: How -- how long was this going one? How 6 long were they yelling these things at you -- you guys? 7 A: It wasn't very long, maybe the latter 8 seconds of a minute. It wasn't very long by any means. 9 Q: Was this the only incident of racist 10 comments being uttered by members of the OPP or were there 11 others that you witnessed between September 4th and September 12 6th of 1995? 13 A: That was the most blatant, the one that 14 was like witnessed by lots. They weren't -- they weren't shy 15 about it and didn't try to cover it up any -- by any means. 16 They were outright stating that. 17 But other times they would be a little more 18 subtle, I guess, in their ways. You see the officers up at 19 the front when we'd would be in the barracks wouldn't really 20 be saying too much seeing as there would be a bit of 21 difference -- or space difference between us. 22 But just their actions, pulling out their guns 23 and loading them up and the shotgun giving it a loading 24 action and stuff like that and they're basically direct 25 towards us.
1391 Q: This -- this was during the occupation of 2 the Park? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And before the occupation of the Park 5 when you were occupying the military camp, were there also 6 similar incidences that happened during that period, racist 7 things being said by the OPP during that period to your 8 group? 9 A: Not necessarily. I didn't really have as 10 much close contact with the cops but there was -- there was a 11 few times I had heard other people talk about encounters. 12 Not myself personally. 13 Q: Now, you explained also in your evidence 14 yesterday, several -- and -- and today, several instances of 15 members of the armed forces or the OPP engaging in -- in 16 violence against you and your people. You talked about your 17 shack -- being evicted from that, roughed up and evicted. 18 You talked about being arrested by the police in 1995. You 19 talked about -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. I -- 21 I think Mr. Roland has an objection. Yes, Mr. Roland. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: If My Friend's going to put 23 the evidence back to the Witness. He's got to put it 24 accurately. And the Witness didn't use the term roughed it. 25 My Friend has now put that term to him but he didn't use it
1401 in his evidence. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you -- I -- I 3 think Mr. Roland is quite right. If you're going to put 4 evidence to him, I think you have to put it to him as 5 accurately as you can. We do have a transcript. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 8 Q: Would you agree that when you were 9 evicted from the shed on the incident described would it be 10 fair to characterize that you were roughed up by those people 11 that -- evicted you? 12 A: Oh yeah, you could say that. Being 13 pushed around. They weren't beating me up by any means but 14 being physically moved out of the way and pushed their way 15 through. Giving me a little crosscheck like you're playing 16 hockey or something, I don't know. 17 Q: Okay. When you were pushed around on 18 that -- that instant -- let me -- so -- let me re-state my 19 question. You went through several instances of violence 20 against you and your people by in some cases, members of the 21 Armed Forces and in other cases members of the Ontario 22 Provincial Police. 23 You talked about the incident of -- of the 24 shed and you being pushed around in that incident. You 25 mentioned your arrest or at least detention in -- by the
1411 police in August 1995 when you were just sitting in the Park. 2 We went through the racist comments. We 3 talked about the ramming of picnic tables. And of course, 4 there was the incident on the night of the 6th where, among 5 other things, Cecil Bernard George was injured and Dudley 6 George was shot. 7 Do you -- do you believe that any of those 8 incidents -- any of those incidents -- any of that violence 9 or that pattern of violence was justified? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: What was on your mind when you went into 12 the Park in -- on September 4th, 1995 about what might 13 possibly happen to you, or what the OPP or members of the 14 Government -- or the Government or whoever was responsible 15 for those lands, might do to you? What was on your mind? 16 A: I was aware that we could possibly be 17 charged, maybe for trespassing or something -- something 18 along -- something along those lines -- arrested; nothing 19 like what happened, anyway. 20 Q: Yesterday and, just for the benefit of 21 the record and for other Counsel, the comments of my Friend 22 toward page 123 of the transcript, but you mentioned and I'll 23 just paraphrase it if I -- if I can, you mentioned that 24 during the period that you were in the Army Camp, there were 25 a few times when you had interaction with the OPP where they
1421 would come onto your peoples' property and you would tell 2 them that they were trespassing; is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when you use the words, our property, 5 you meant the lands appropriated for the Army Base? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when you refer to it as your 8 property, is that at least in part, based on your peoples' 9 rights to the unceded Stoney Point Reserve lands set out in 10 the Treaty? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And in your view, does the same apply to 13 officers who came into the Provincial Park and detained you 14 in August of 1995, that is, that they were trespassing on 15 your land? 16 A: Yes, in a way. They were -- I realize 17 that the Park was still there and they were, I guess, holding 18 -- they were in control of it at that time, but still I -- I 19 felt that it was mine and they had no right to do what they 20 what they were doing. 21 Q: We went to reference, that's as Page 137 22 of the transcript, you also mentioned an incident in which 23 Dudley had driven a car down to the end of Matheson Drive on 24 a beach there, and stopped his car on the beach. Now, Dudley 25 at that time, would have been maybe -- help me -- help me out
1431 with this -- on the Park lands or -- or close to the Park 2 lands? 3 A: He was close to the Park lands. 4 Q: In -- in any case, it's on lands that are 5 part of the original Stony Point Reserve? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You also mentioned that a number of 8 police proceeded to approach him and that you heard Dudley 9 say things to the police. Right? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: I think, as I recall, you said that 12 Dudley was giving them a good earful about whose land it was. 13 Did you mean by that, that Dudley was telling the officers 14 that it was your peoples' lands? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did Dudley tell the officers that they 17 had no right to be on your peoples' lands? Did you hear 18 anything like that? 19 A: Yes. That's basically what he was 20 telling them, that it was our land and they were trespassing. 21 They had no right to even approach him in the manner that 22 they were, let alone attempt to press any charges or anything 23 else. 24 Q: Did he tell any of them to get off of his 25 lands?
1441 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Did you hear anything the officers said? 3 Did they say that Dudley was wrong about that and that -- 4 that it was not Dudley's lands? 5 A: No, they never said nothing. That was a 6 -- the part about the story was that Dudley was quite proud 7 of himself. 8 It was -- they had basically chased all of 9 those police away, thinking he was by himself and there was 10 quite a number of us that'd come up behind and those police 11 had seen us and as soon as Dudley had finished saying his 12 peace there, they -- they left. It was just like, as if they 13 were actually listening. 14 Q: Would you agree that the -- sorry, let me 15 move onto something else. You also testified that in August 16 1995, when you were picked up by the OPP that you told the 17 police that the Park was part of your reserve. 18 Do you -- it is still your position today that 19 the Parklands are part of your reserve lands? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, also we talked about the sandy 22 parking lot or at least part of it, and I think you said that 23 was part of your land, too. We've heard similar evidence 24 from other witnesses as well. 25 Do you recall that evidence that you gave?
1451 A: Yeah. 2 Q: I'm wondering if you can turn to -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, Mr. 4 Roland is again -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think My Friend has to be 6 careful. I can't take you through every -- every answer this 7 Witness gave, but I listened pretty closely to his evidence 8 and I don't think the Witness ever asserted that the sandy 9 parking lot itself was part of their lands. 10 He may -- that may be his position -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- but My Friend has -- has 13 suggested to him that he's already testified to it, and I 14 don't think it's in the evidence. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know other 16 witnesses did, but I'm not sure if this Witness did. 17 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: He certainly did. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He did? 19 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: And -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that -- I think he 21 did, as my recollection. I asked him a question about the 22 sandy parking lot and why and the answer was twofold as I 23 recall, keeping people out and it was their land. I believe 24 he said that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, have you
1461 got a copy of the transcript all ready, because I know we 2 could get it fairly quickly to be sure. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I can -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: I won't press it, Mr. 5 Commissioner. If I'm wrong, that's fine. But I didn't 6 recall that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 And I don't have a transcript in front me, so I'm assuming 9 that you can read the transcript correctly and that you are, 10 and if you don't, Mr. Roland will object again. 11 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I recorded it word for 12 word when he said, so I didn't need -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: -- to -- I didn't think I 15 needed to refer to the transcript, but -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: I am -- I think Mr. Millar 18 and I are -- have the same recollection of that. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 21 Q: I'm wondering if you can look at the 22 diagram behind you. That's Exhibit Number -- 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-103. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR:
1471 Q: P-103. And on, I think, the bottom, just 2 right to the middle of that map, there's a fence line. Do 3 you see that there? That's, I guess, between the -- the 4 legend there or the -- the description and the roadway. Do 5 you see that fence line there? 6 A: Is this the one you're talking about, 7 right -- 8 Q: That's right. 9 A: -- below Army Camp Road? 10 Q: That's right. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And if you look at the top of the map, I 13 think there's the words, sand gravel shoulder as beside the 14 driveway -- 15 A: Over here, yeah. 16 Q: -- for the cottage? If you look at the 17 very top of the map, beside the north arrow. 18 A: Oh, up top there? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you see the fence line coming down 22 from the top of that map in a southerly direction? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, I -- if you -- if you look at that 25 southern fence beside the -- beside the Army Camp Road and
1481 that northern fence beside the -- the cottage there, if you 2 connect those two (2) fences it seems like that's pretty much 3 a straight line; is that about right? 4 A: Yes, it could be. 5 Q: I think we've heard some evidence which 6 suggests that that -- and I believe we have, and I stand to 7 be corrected, but that that line is approximately the 8 boundary of the original reserve lands; do you think that's 9 probably right? 10 A: It depends on what you call the original 11 reserve lands. The ones that were -- when the people were 12 taken out in 1942, then I would say, yes. 13 Q: I -- I guess -- 14 A: But it's -- 15 Q: -- it's the reserve lands guaranteed to 16 you under the Treaty. 17 A: I believe it goes beyond that. 18 Q: Beyond that to the east or sorry -- 19 beyond that to the west? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, we've also heard evidence, I think, 22 the very first few days of this Inquiry, that there was a 23 land surrender in 1928 in which the Government say that your 24 community gave up part of the Stony Point Reserve including 25 specifically the lands that became Ipperwash Provincial Park.
1491 Do you today believe or accept that this 1928 -- that in 1928 2 there was a valid or binding surrender giving up those Treaty 3 lands? 4 A: I don't believe it was valid. 5 Q: That's all my questions. Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, just for the 8 record, the reference in the transcripts at page 182, lines 9 20 to 30, was where Mr. Simon in response of question about 10 the sandy parking lot said that they thought it was our land. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, Mr. 12 Millar. Who's next? I think Mr. Ross. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That would be Mr. Ross. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: Mr. Simon, I've just got a few questions 18 for you. Your evidence is that you moved onto the camp on 19 the 7th of May, 1993, correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Yes. And by that we mean the range, the 22 rifle range section. Am I correct to that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah. Now, tell me, what was -- what did 25 you have in mind, why were you moving onto the rifle range?
1501 A: My -- well I was there. I was there -- 2 it was my home. I was there to stay. Not necessarily the 3 spot where we were at on it on May 7th but later on that 4 summer when we moved to my great grandfather's estate. But 5 still, you know, I felt the whole property is -- was mine or 6 shared amongst our Nation. 7 Q: What you said was yours shared with the 8 Nation. 9 A: Yea. 10 Q: Be a little more specific. Were you 11 expecting to get personal title to these lands? 12 A: No, not personal title. 13 Q: I see. Well, then by being there, did 14 you expect your problem just to disappear or was there 15 something else you were planning to do when you moved there 16 in 1993? 17 A: I'm not too sure of your question there? 18 Q: Well I'm suggesting to you moved there in 19 May of 1993; am I correct with that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes. And you tell me that the reason was 22 because it was your grandfather's property, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. Now didn't you expect a response 25 from Government, did you expect any response from anybody?
1511 A: Yeah. I'd hoped to start -- jump start 2 some sort of negotiations where we would -- 3 Q: I see. 4 A: -- officially have our land returned and 5 recognized as ours. 6 Q: I see. And when that didn't happen in 7 1993, you stayed over the winter of 1993 into 1994? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you stayed there from 1994 through -- 10 through the summer of 1995? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So you lasted two (2) winters on that 13 land without any Government response? 14 A: I believe it was in February of '94, they 15 said they were going to shut down the base; that was -- that 16 was the only response we ever received. 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: There was no recognition of it being ours 19 or acknowledgement of us being there. 20 Q: And you moved into the barracks some time 21 in --- or between October and December 1995? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, around September and particularly 24 the first two (2) weeks in September, 1995, where were you 25 actually living?
1521 A: I wasn't really actually living in one 2 spot, per se. I was kind of all over the place. 3 Q: But all over the place at Kettle Point or 4 on the lands of Aazhoodena? 5 A: On the lands -- 6 Q: On the lands of Aazhoodena? 7 A: -- of Aazhoodena. 8 Q: So, you moved in there in 1993 for the 9 purpose of attracting Government attention and trying to kick 10 start discussions. And you stayed there until after Dudley 11 George was -- was killed? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. And -- and you moved into a 14 permanent residence sometime around the latter part of 1995? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And are you still there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 19 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 21 much. I think Ms. Tuck-Jackson is next. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:
1531 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Simon. 2 A: Good afternoon. 3 Q: I'm Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm here this 4 afternoon on behalf of the OPP. And I have more than just 5 one (1) or two (2) questions for you. 6 As we know, the occupiers, and I'm going to 7 just refer to the Stony Pointers who moved on to what has 8 been referred to as Camp Ipperwash, when referred to them 9 generally as the occupiers. 10 We know that they moved on to the rifle range 11 on May the 6th, 1993 and I trust, from the tenor of your 12 evidence, that you supported that decision? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you supported that decision again as 15 you have very eloquently put it, you were of the view that 16 that parcel of land belonged to your people? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you would agree with me, sir, that at 19 no time while you were on the rifle range, did you witness 20 any OPP officers attempting to remove the occupiers from the 21 rifle range? 22 A: Not forcibly. They -- they had their 23 surveillance, stuff like that, but, no, they never tried to 24 remove us off of there. They threatened. 25 Q: I'm not asking, sir. You indicated you
1541 had heard that threats had been made, I'm more interested in 2 what you actually witnessed. And you would agree with me 3 that you never witnessed any attempts of the OPP, to come on 4 to that property and remove the occupiers? 5 A: They came on there, but no, they never 6 tried to remove us. 7 Q: Thank you. We know that at the end of 8 July of 1995, a decision was made to move further onto what 9 has been referred to as the Camp Ipperwash property, and for 10 the occupiers to move into the barracks area. 11 And again, from the tenor of your evidence, 12 you clearly supported that decision? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And again, sir, you supported it because 15 you genuinely believe that the land belonged to your people? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And again, sir, I'm going to suggest to 18 you that at no time following the move of those people into 19 the built-up area, did you witness an attempt by the OPP to 20 oust those occupiers from the barracks area? 21 A: No, I never seen -- seen them attempt to 22 remove us, no. 23 Q: Thank you. We know again, that on the 24 evening of September the 4th, you and a number of other Stony 25 Pointers moved on to the land that has been described by some
1551 as Ipperwash Provincial Park, and that was in -- you, I 2 understand, came in the late afternoon of that day? 3 A: Yeah, sometime. I never had a watch that 4 the time either, so... 5 Q: That's fair. I'd like to think that most 6 people on the Labour Day weekend aren't wearing watches, it's 7 too nice a weekend. 8 In any event, clearly again, because this time 9 you're actually in the midst of it, you clearly supported 10 that decision to push onward into that part of what you 11 regarded as the original Stony Point Reserve? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And again, you supported that decision 14 because you genuinely believed that was part of your people's 15 land? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Now, you'll agree with me 18 that on more than one occasion, prior to your entry on to 19 that property, on the 4th of September, you took the 20 opportunity to advise Members of the OPP that that Park 21 belonged to your people? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. On the night of the 4th, as you 24 have testified, Members of the OPP withdrew from the Park 25 property, correct?
1561 A: Eventually, yes. 2 Q: Yes. After Roderick George smashed the 3 rear window of a marked cruiser. Correct? 4 A: Well, before that they had removed 5 themselves and all of the campers to the one (1) furthest 6 corner. 7 Q: My understanding, sir, in the evidence 8 that we've heard thus far in this Inquiry is that is was upon 9 Mr. George's show of force as directed towards that police 10 car, that the police then retreated? 11 A: From that last section. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Good. Now, you'd agree with me 15 that at no point on the following day, on September the 5th, 16 do you witness any OPP officers coming onto the fenced-in 17 portion of that Park -- the fenced-in Park and attempt to 18 remove the Occupiers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You're agreeing with what I'm saying? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Thank you. All right. Now, I'm going to 23 suggest to you -- and I'm referencing -- we've heard what has 24 been described by -- by many witnesses so far as the picnic 25 table incident from the -- we'll call it the -- the late
1571 evening or the night of September the 5th, so I want you to 2 bear that in mind when I ask you the next series of 3 questions. 4 You'd agree with me, sir, that the only time 5 on September the 5th that you observed any police officers 6 take issue with the location of occupiers, was when those 7 occupiers were in the sandy parking lot? 8 A: Yes, it's quite a way to take issue, 9 though, to drive into a table somebody's sitting on, but yes, 10 that was the first time, I believe -- 11 Q: Thank you. 12 A: -- that I witnessed. 13 Q: And I want to take you to the next day, 14 sir. I'm going to suggest to you that at no time on 15 September the 6th, did you see an OPP officer cross that 16 fence line and try to remove occupiers from the Park 17 property. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And fair to say, sir, that as long as the 20 occupiers were within the fenced-in part of the property, 21 there was no physical confrontation between the police and an 22 occupier. 23 A: Not inside the Park, no. 24 Q: Thank you. And again, obviously I'm 25 speaking of the events of the night of September the 6th.
1581 The only time there was any type of physical confrontation, 2 between a police officer and an occupier, was when an 3 occupier was in the sandy parking lot? 4 A: Yeah, all the altercation took place out 5 in that parking lot. That's correct. 6 Q: Thank you. Now, we've talked about the 7 fact that the police did not come into the Park between the 8 4th and the 6th and try and remove the occupiers. I want to 9 ask you a slightly different type of question. 10 Would you agree with me, sir, that between the 11 4th and the 6th -- right up until the point of the 12 unfortunate shooting of Mr. George -- would you agree with me 13 that once the police retreated for the last time on the -- on 14 -- it was either late on the 4th or early on the 5th, when 15 there was an effort to serve a trespass notice, and you, sir, 16 may not have witnessed that do you know anything about 17 Officer Vince George coming onto the Park property -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- and try and serve a piece of paper on 20 some of the occupiers? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. So, as far as you're concerned, 23 the last time that you saw a police officer on the night of 24 the 4th was shortly after Roderick George hit that police 25 car?
1591 A: That was the last time I'd seen them in 2 the Park -- the police? 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: Was that your question? 5 Q: On -- on the night of the 4th. 6 A: Yeah, after they had left, when the 7 window was smashed and they had left. I -- I never witnessed 8 none inside the Park. 9 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say, then, 10 that from that point onward, so on the 5th and on the 6th, at 11 no time did you see a police officer within the Park 12 boundary? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: I want to go back, if I can, to the 15 evening of September the 5th and the picnic tables in the 16 parking lot. And you've already told us that you supported 17 this decision -- I'm going to assume that you supported this 18 decision to move the tables into that parking lot on the 19 evening of the 5th, because again, that was land that you 20 regarded as your own, belonging to your people? 21 A: Yeah, I agreed with it. But like I said, 22 I wasn't there when it had taken place -- 23 Q: I understand. 24 A: -- when I got there. Yeah, I agreed with 25 it.
1601 Q: And I guess one way of establishing that 2 you agreed with it, is that didn't say to your fellow 3 occupiers, guys, this isn't a good idea, bring the tables 4 back inside the Park -- 5 A: Well, I was -- 6 Q: -- and get yourselves back in the Park. 7 A: I went up there and cooked myself a 8 hotdog, too. Sat down by the fire. 9 Q: Fair enough. All right. And as you've 10 also indicated to us, another purpose, as far as you were 11 concerned of placing the tables in that lot, of setting a 12 fire and of placing yourselves in that lot, was to create a 13 blockade so that people could not access that sandy parking 14 lot and make their way down to the beach front? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And as I understand it, sir, one of the 17 concerns that you had is that there were either members of 18 the community or maybe they were not members of the 19 community. Maybe they were people passing through, I don't 20 know -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: But they had engaged you and confronted 23 you about some of your positions in terms of land claims and 24 had made racist and derogatory comments to you. 25 A: Yeah, there was verbal and physical
1611 confrontations that we were trying to avoid by doing that. 2 That was my understanding of one of the reasons why we had 3 blocked that road way off -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- was to avoid... 6 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that at no time 7 did you personally communicate to an OPP officer that you 8 believed that that sandy parking lot was part of the land 9 that belonged to your people. 10 A: We always told them that that whole beach 11 front was our property. So, when we told them that the Park 12 was ours, and that was ours, didn't see the point of pointing 13 out one little spot and saying that this is ours, too. 14 Q: Sandy parking lot, sir, you'll agree with 15 me, is west of the fence that delineates the Park property. 16 A: That's correct, but -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- we never built that fence. So, it has 19 no -- no consequence to us, in divvying off the land, it's 20 still all our land. 21 Q: So, you assume, then, that the police 22 would realise that that parking lot, in your eyes, was part 23 of Stony Point property? 24 A: I didn't see why they probably wouldn't 25 see it that way, but it's my understanding that it is ours
1621 and -- 2 Q: I don't take any issue, sir, and I don't 3 intend to challenge you as to what your belief was in 4 relation to that property. What I'm interested in knowing is 5 the extent to which efforts were made to communicate to the 6 police that that was the basis for moving in beyond the 7 fenced in Park, onto that sandy parking lot. 8 A: We -- we were making a point of not 9 talking to the police by that time, so you're correct in 10 assuming that we never. Well, I never, anyway. Somebody 11 else may have. I... 12 Q: You've anticipated my next question. 13 Would it be fair to say that you didn't come to learn of any 14 attempts by an occupier to explain to the police that there 15 was a belief that that parking lot also belonged to your 16 people? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. Fair enough. I wanted to clarify 19 something that -- that I suspected I've misheard. You very 20 eloquently put that you and I mean you, personally, had no 21 intention of moving west to take over the cottage -- the 22 cottages that belonged to other people, for lack of a better 23 word, whoever those people are, because you wouldn't want to 24 do to them what your forefathers had had to endure when they 25 were ousted from their land?
1631 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Do I have it, then, correctly that you, 3 personally, did not believe that the land that ran directly 4 west from the western border of the sandy parking lot -- was 5 it your personal view that that land did not belong, at any 6 point, to the Sandy Point Reserve? 7 A: Stoney Point Reserve, you mean? 8 Q: Yes -- 9 A: I believe that was part of our reserve. 10 Q: Oh, sorry. Pardon? 11 A: I believe that was part of our reserve, 12 but what I had said was that I felt those people had been 13 illegally sold land. Our issue wasn't with them, it was with 14 the Government. 15 Q: Okay. So, it was your personal view that 16 it would not be appropriate to keep moving west, for example, 17 beyond the sandy parking lot to take over those cottage 18 properties? 19 A: That wasn't our intent, no. 20 Q: Okay, that wasn't your intent. I want to 21 ask you whether or not you heard amongst any of the fellow 22 Occupiers that you spent time with over the course of those 23 three (3) days or more, did they ever express -- because I 24 presume that not everyone shared your view -- did they ever 25 express the feeling that, you know what?
1641 We should just keep going west, because that 2 land is rightfully ours? 3 A: Yes, people had said that. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: But, like I had said, we then -- myself, 6 I wasn't the only one that felt that we didn't want to 7 inflict that kind of thing on other people and we also knew 8 that it would be a -- it would be a whole different situation 9 we would be in. 10 We wouldn't be dealing with the Government, 11 like, we were pushing for some sort of meaningful, I don't 12 know, negotiation -- some sort of start to reclaiming our 13 land and going into peoples' cottages wasn't going to do it. 14 Q: It's not the right thing to do because it 15 wouldn't be fair to the rights of the cottagers. 16 Is that what I hear you saying? 17 A: Something along those lines, yes. 18 Q: Okay, but I gather from what you just 19 said to -- to us a moment ago, that view that you -- that you 20 believed in, it wasn't necessarily shared by everybody else? 21 A: I know a lot of people did, but like you 22 had said, I wasn't the only one that felt that that was our 23 land. Some people had talked about recovering it at some 24 point, but -- 25 Q: Okay.
1651 A: -- it was not our intention to -- to do 2 that at that point. 3 Q: And again, and I suspect you've already 4 the question, but I have to ask you, sometimes, questions 5 that seem to be redundant to create a record. 6 I gather no one within your group, over the 7 course of time during the 4th to the 6th ever let the OPP 8 know that you had no intention of pushing further west beyond 9 the sandy parking lot? 10 A: Not to my knowledge, no. 11 Q: Okay. We've also heard evidence about 12 certain beliefs by you and -- and fellow Occupiers about your 13 right to reclaim land at the eastern part of the land that is 14 sometimes described as Camp Ipperwash. Could we have Exhibit 15 P-40 put up? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 20 Q: Thank you, Mr. Millar. Mr. Simon, if you 21 could look at the map that we have projected on the screen 22 and I see that our friendly hand is moving up to the screen 23 in the area that I'm interested in, in the -- what is 24 essentially the northeast corner of what is described on the 25 map as the Ipperwash Military Reserve.
1661 Do I understand correctly, the -- the line -- 2 the vertical line that we see to the right, that's Outer 3 Drive. Correct? 4 A: It appears so. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: There should be a little bit more of this 7 roadway that's going through one (1) of the roads coming 8 inside the camp. Outer Drive is actually -- runs parallel to 9 it, so. 10 Q: In some respects, it's like Army Camp 11 Road, it runs outside the perimeter -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- of the camp? 14 A: So it'd actually be on the right hand 15 side of that line you're talking about. 16 Q: Okay. Do I have it correct that there 17 are some cottages up in that top right hand corner? 18 A: Yes, there is. 19 Q: All right. And I trust it's your 20 position that the property where those cottages then 21 occupied, do they still occupy that little corner of land? 22 A: Yes, they do. 23 Q: Okay. I trust it's your position that 24 that property is properly within the Stony Point reserve? 25 A: That's correct.
1671 Q: All right. Were there any discussions 2 back on the 4th and the 6th, and I can tell you in fairness 3 to you, we've already heard evidence that there were some 4 discussions to this effect, but I want to hear what you have 5 to say about it. 6 Were there discussions about an intent to take 7 back that corner of land, because again, it was rightfully 8 belonging to your people? 9 A: They would like to see that happen, but 10 as I said before, we weren't about to get into personal -- 11 personal fight with each individual landowner or homeowner. 12 Q: It added a complication, is that fair to 13 say? 14 A: Yes, they weren't the ones we wanted -- 15 they weren't the ones our fight was with. Our fight was with 16 the government. 17 Q: Okay. And again, it's perhaps redundant, 18 but I want to make the point. You'd agree with me, I trust, 19 that at no point as far as you were aware, was it ever 20 communicated to the OPP that having pushed onto the Park, 21 having pushed onto the sandy parking lot, you did not intend 22 to push eastward into that little corner where there were 23 cottagers? 24 A: It had been made clear before when we'd 25 taken over the Army base part that we weren't going to. That
1681 was before we moved into the Park. That would have been by 2 -- I'm not too sure if -- by who at the time, whether it was 3 Maynard or Carl whoever we had elected as spokesperson, when 4 he had moved onto the Army base. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: And that our people would be staying 7 within those boundaries of the original -- or not the 8 original, but the lands that were taken in '42. 9 Q: All right, but -- but let's just pause 10 there for a minute. So are you telling us, then, that in May 11 of 1993 either Maynard T. George or Carl George communicated 12 to the police that the occupiers weren't going to push into 13 that corner. Is that what you're telling us? 14 A: It may not have been in May, but 15 somewhere towards the beginning, yes. 16 Q: How do you know that? 17 A: That's -- they were telling us. A lot of 18 us were told. 19 Q: Okay. All right. Were they also telling 20 the police at that point that at no point they were going to 21 move into the Park? 22 A: I don't know about that -- it could have 23 been to the military, too, I don't -- you're right. It may 24 not have been to the OPP. 25 Q: Right, okay. And I understand that, at
1691 times, it's difficult to -- to keep the lines different and - 2 - but it's important to me that we keep the line very 3 different, because the Military police and the OPP are two 4 (2) very different groups. 5 So it's fair to say, then, that it may have 6 been the Military police that had been contacted in relation 7 to the corner, the north-east corner of this property but you 8 can't say that the OPP were notified that there was no 9 intention to push further, at least of 1993? 10 A: Yeah, I couldn't say for sure. 11 Q: Okay. Fair enough. See, I anticipate 12 that we're going to hear that the police received information 13 that during the course of that Labour Day weekend, the 4th, 14 the 5th, the 6th, they heard information that the occupiers 15 were going to push beyond the Park and potentially move into 16 the direction of -- of Port Franks. You're smiling? 17 A: They also heard that we were shooting at 18 them, too, so... 19 Q: Well, a lot of information was presented 20 to the police, you're quite right. And it may have been 21 inaccurate information, but I'm interested in delineating 22 what information the police did receive and had to act upon. 23 Were you aware that there were rumours 24 circulating that the occupiers were going to push towards 25 Port Franks?
1701 A: I wasn't aware of that. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I was aware that, there is common 4 knowledge that it is our land, but I wasn't aware of anybody 5 saying we're going to forcibly remove anybody over there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. Commissioner, 8 the time is 2:25 and I wasn't sure when you wanted to take 9 the afternoon break? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I think we 11 should take a break. I was going to say we could push right 12 through until 3:30, but I think that's too much for the 13 witness and everybody. I think we will take a break. Is 14 this a good time? 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: This would be -- it 16 would be a convenient time, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 18 take a short break, why don't we take a ten (10) minute 19 break, because we're only going until 3:30. So why don't we 20 take a short break now. 21 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 22 Inquiry will recess for ten (10) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 2:30 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 2:40 p.m.
1711 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 2 Please be seated. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 8 Q: Mr. Simon, you were speaking, not today, 9 but I believe yesterday, about the fact that you had 10 witnessed police officers attempting to learn who could be 11 properly characterized as a leader of the Park occupiers; do 12 you remember that evidence? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I believe that you were referring, 15 sir, by attempts by police when people were moving through 16 road blocks, that they were trying to ascertain who was the 17 leader? 18 A: Yes, come and tore us apart. And I had 19 also heard that they had tried to ask people at the fence 20 line too, but I wasn't -- 21 Q: All right. 22 A: -- wasn't there. 23 Q: That's fair. And again, I only want to 24 hear about what you actually witnessed, as opposed to what 25 you heard about it.
1721 A: Well, I never witnessed those coming 2 through the road blocks either. I -- 3 Q: Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I 4 thought you had actually overheard it happening? 5 A: From before we moved into the Park I had 6 -- I had heard them, not necessarily during the occupation of 7 the Park, it was just what I had heard. 8 Q: All right. I'm not going to ask you then 9 about what you heard about it again, I'm only interested in 10 what you've actually seen or witnessed. 11 We know that you weren't in the Park during 12 the day of September the 5th, so I'm not going to ask you 13 about attempts at communication on the 5th. 14 You were in the Park, however, I gather, 15 around 3:00 p.m. on September the 6th...? 16 A: I could have been, yes. 17 Q: All right. But then am I clear then that 18 you did not see the officers at around 3:00 p.m. that day 19 come up to the fence, and attempt to communicate with the 20 occupiers? 21 A: No, I didn't. 22 Q: All right. Then I'm not going to ask you 23 anything further about that. 24 You have been very adamant that at no time did 25 you see a firearm in the Park during that two-and-a-quarter
1731 (2 1/4) day occupation; correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: All right. We've heard through Roderick 4 George, that in his view, it would have been reasonable for 5 the OPP to believe that there were firearms in -- somewhere 6 in the Army Base area, simply because it was common knowledge 7 that some of the occupiers hunted; would you agree with that? 8 A: In the barracks part. 9 Q: Right. Okay. And again, when I say, 10 would you agree with that, was it fairly common knowledge 11 within the community that as far as you could tell that there 12 would have been guns, as you put it, in the barracks area 13 because people were hunting on that land? 14 A: Yeah there was a few -- I wouldn't call 15 it common knowledge. There was just a -- just a few -- few 16 people, a couple of people that had guns. 17 Q: Okay. I'll ask you this and again I 18 think I know the answer but -- would it be fair to say that 19 at no point were you aware of any efforts by the occupiers to 20 communicate to the police that no guns had been brought in to 21 the Park from the barracks area? 22 A: They were told that, yes they were. When 23 they were approaching, they were told several times that 24 these are unarmed men and women and children in here. 25 Q: You're talking at the point when as
1741 you've described it, the riot squad is coming down East 2 Parkway Drive, correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. I'm talking about before we 5 even get to that stage. I'm talking about earlier, either on 6 the 4th, on the 5th or earlier in the day on the 6th. I'm -- 7 A: I'm pretty sure they were told on the 8 night of the 5th too when they come up there with their -- 9 their formation there when they had threatened Dudley. 10 Q: You're pretty sure that the police were 11 told that there were no guns? 12 A: Yeah. There were unarmed men, women and 13 children. And they basically didn't need to be doing what 14 they were doing and they looked like they were coming to -- 15 to beat everybody up, club them. 16 Q: Who told the police that? 17 A: Various people along the fence line. I 18 don't know who said it. I heard it being said. 19 Q: Okay. Did you hear it again on the 6th 20 prior to the point when the group was marching down East 21 Parkway Drive, the group of officers? 22 A: Again, as they were coming up there, yes. 23 But not before. 24 Q: But not before? 25 A: Yeah. Like I said we -- we made a point
1751 of trying not to -- 2 Q: To talk to the police? 3 A: Yeah, to be pointed out as a spokesperson 4 or as we seen a target. 5 Q: All right. As -- then to be clear then 6 as far as you were aware, at no point on September the 6th up 7 to the point when you actually see the officers marching 8 towards you. 9 But at no point on that day up to that point, 10 are you aware of any specific efforts by the occupiers to 11 convey to the police that there were no firearms in the Park? 12 A: I guess that could be correct, yep. 13 Q: Okay. You told us that you did not 14 witness the incident involving Stewart George and Gerald 15 George on the evening of September the 6th, correct? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Do I have it correct though that you saw 18 Mr. George speaking with the police later that evening? 19 A: Gerald. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right, yes. I'm sorry I should have 23 said the first name. Were you aware at that time of the 24 newspaper article, the letter to the Editor that Mr. George 25 had written and it had been published in the local paper at
1761 the end of August 1995? 2 A: Yes, I was. 3 Q: All right. When you saw -- well let me 4 back up a minute. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Simon, that 5 you disagreed with a number of the things he had to say in 6 that published letter? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Would it be fair to say that he in your 9 mind was unfairly characterizing your people? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Okay. When you saw him speaking with the 12 police on the night of September the 6th, did you have 13 concerns about what he might be telling them? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Fair to say that you had concerns that he 16 may be misleading the police as to the intentions of the 17 occupiers? 18 A: Yeah. In a way. I thought it was odd 19 when you read it, I thought it couldn't have been saying too 20 much good about us so... 21 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say that you 22 were concerned that he may be telling the police that there 23 were firearms in the Park? 24 A: I didn't think he would be going that 25 far.
1771 Q: Okay, but you were concerned that he may 2 be saying things to the police that in your mind would create 3 a negative and a false impression of the intentions of the 4 Occupiers? 5 A: Yeah, something like -- yeah. 6 Q: Did you see any efforts made, again, to 7 speak with the police after they had spoken with Gerald 8 George? 9 In other words, did you see any efforts by the 10 Occupiers to try and speak with the police after they had 11 been speaking with Mr. George? 12 A: No, I didn't. 13 Q: Thank you. The confrontation that we've 14 heard about between Gerald George and Stewart George -- fair 15 to say, sir, that that was the first that you heard of a 16 confrontation between an Occupier and somebody who was not a 17 police officer during the course of the 4th to the 6th? 18 A physical confrontation between one (1) of 19 the Park Occupiers and somebody outside of the fence who was 20 not a police officer? 21 A: That's the only confrontation I heard of 22 besides the one with the police. 23 Q: So that confrontation was a new 24 occurrence over the course of those two (1) and a quarter 25 days?
1781 A: For that period of time, yes. 2 Q: Yes. You were asked earlier, I believe, 3 by my Friend, Mr. Millar, about whether or not you had 4 witnessed, on the early evening of the 6th, a number of male 5 Occupiers in the sandy parking lot who were carrying clubs or 6 sticks of some fashion and I believe that you indicated that 7 you did not see any of that? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: I can advise you, sir, that we've already 10 heard evidence from -- from two (2) of the Park Occupiers 11 about their being out in that parking lot in the early 12 evening. All right? 13 Would it be fair to say, that as far as you 14 were aware, having Occupiers in that sandy parking lot 15 carrying some type of a club or stick, that was also 16 something that was new and had not occurred earlier since the 17 takeover of the Park? 18 A: So was the fact that they had marched up 19 and made threats which I thought I'd made clear was partly 20 the reason why people were carrying sticks of that -- that 21 nature, but yes, I would agree that that is something new. 22 Q: Thank you. You told us, sir, that 23 tension was increasing on the 6th amongst the Occupiers in 24 the Park. 25 As the day progressed, there was a -- a
1791 perception of an increased police presence; tensions were 2 increasing in the Park? 3 A: That'd be correct. 4 Q: Okay. You told us that on the 6th, that 5 there was a buildup of stones, of sticks, and I believe you 6 referred to two (2) by three (3) inch pavers from the store - 7 - just outside of the store? 8 A: Yeah, paving stones. I'm not really too 9 sure of the size of them. 10 Q: That's fair. That's fair. And that was 11 a buildup of these materials that was new. It -- that type 12 of buildup or collection of stones and sticks and pavers -- 13 that hadn't occurred to the same degree on the 5th or the 14 4th, had it? 15 A: No, it didn't. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Not that I recall, anyway. 18 Q: We've heard, sir, of some attempts by 19 people on the 6th to make phone calls or otherwise try to 20 communicate a need for more people to come into the Park as 21 supporters -- reinforcements, so to speak. 22 Were you conscious, sir, of an increase in the 23 number of -- of Occupiers that was moving into the Park as 24 that day progressed on the 6th? 25 A: Not any more than any -- what had been
1801 already taking place on that course of that summer since we 2 moved into the barracks. There was quite a number of people 3 had come to show their support and I didn't think it was any 4 different for when we'd moved into the Park that people would 5 come down there, too, and partake. 6 Q: So it wasn't your view that the number of 7 people that were congregating in the Park, as the evening of 8 the 6th came, it's not your view that that number increased 9 over the course of the two and a quarter (2 1/4) days? 10 A: I wouldn't think so. 11 Q: Were you aware, sir, of efforts by your 12 brother that evening, to move women and children out of the 13 Park area and the barracks area? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: Okay. We've heard evidence, sir, about 16 your brother filling gas cans with gasoline from a storage 17 tank from within the Park. Were -- did you see that going 18 on? 19 A: Yeah. When we first moved in there, a 20 lot of people were filling up their vehicles and my -- my 21 thoughts was that eventually that gas is all going to be gone 22 and most of the gas was basically driving out the gate. 23 So I -- my thoughts on that was that, he was 24 filling up gas basically to keep -- 25 Q: Okay.
1811 A: -- for Stony Pointers. 2 Q: I understand. I'm talking about not 3 efforts over the course of the 4th, the 5th, and the 6th. 4 And I'm focussing on what we understood was happening on the 5 6th, that he was filling up gas tanks and that he was filling 6 up the tank of the school bus. Were you aware of all that? 7 A: Could have been. 8 Q: Okay. Were you aware of activity of a 9 dump truck that was driving between the barracks area and the 10 Park on the 6th? 11 A: To some extent. I knew it was driving 12 around, yes. 13 Q: Okay, would it be fair to say that the 14 movement of that dump truck and that activity was greater on 15 the 6th than it had been on the two (2) preceding days? Or 16 can you -- 17 A: It could have been. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: It's not something I paid attention to. 20 Q: That's fair. You spoke about a fire, 21 sir. And I had gotten the sense, and you can correct me if 22 I'm wrong, but the fire that was by the store, I think you 23 described it as being slightly in front of the store, that it 24 hadn't got -- it had gotten bigger, it had grown by the 25 evening of the 6th with the use of, perhaps, picnic tables as
1821 firewood for it? 2 A: I might be mistaken in this, but I was 3 under the belief that there was a fire they talked about 4 being built on a grassy spot between the parking lots on the 5 4th when we first moved in there. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: That wasn't the one that I was talking 8 about on the 6th. That fire had gone out -- 9 Q: Right. 10 A: -- and we had a built a newer one closer 11 to the -- the fence line there. 12 Q: And that's actually exactly what I'm 13 getting at. And that fire that was built closer to the fence 14 line, that was built on the 6th? 15 A: I'm not too sure when, around there -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: It could have been. 18 Q: Were there other fires, sir, that were 19 started on the 6th that hadn't been started before, either on 20 the Park property or down in the barracks area? Or in the 21 area in between, for example? 22 A: Not that I'm aware of. I -- I had 23 mentioned those other fires that -- like the checkpoints. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: I was pretty certain that those had been
1831 lit on either the 4th or the 5th. But it very well could 2 have been on -- sometime on the 6th, too. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I'm not entirely sure. 5 Q: I anticipate, sir, that we're going to 6 hear some evidence that on the evening of the 6th, there -- 7 the fence that cordoned off the Park and separated the Park 8 from the sandy parking lot, the fence had become bent over, 9 such that traffic could travel between the sandy parking lot 10 and the Park property. Are you aware of that? 11 A: I'm not aware of that. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That fence has always been, kind of a -- 14 it's an old, regular farm fence, I guess with the big 15 squares, and it's always been, as long as I can remember, 16 basically falling down in sections. 17 Somebody, I remember, somebody was pointing 18 out on the map up there, that there was a gap in that fence 19 that doesn't show something on there. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: My recollection, it's been like that for 22 years. 23 Q: And sir, do you have any recollection of 24 any cars travelling from between the sandy parking lot and 25 the Park on the early evening of the 6th?
1841 A: I don't recall that. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: If there was, there would have been -- 4 Q: No, go ahead, finish your thought. If 5 there was, there was what? 6 A: It would have been through that gate but 7 I don't think that would have been possible with that 8 dumpster being in the way. 9 Q: Okay. You spoke, sir, of empty liquor 10 bottles being found in an area close to the MNR parking lot. 11 Now unfortunately, I don't think we have any kind of a map 12 that takes us down to show the MNR parking lot. 13 But I want to ask you some questions about 14 where you saw those bottles, because if I have your evidence 15 correct, you personally saw the bottles? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: Okay. The parking lot that we're 18 speaking of is west of the intersection of Army Camp Road and 19 East Parkway Drive; correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And the parking lot runs south off East 22 Parkway Drive...? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: How far south does that parking lot 25 extend? My recollection is it's quite a large parking lot,
1851 but I don't have a dimension in my head. 2 A: Yeah, it is fairly large. It would be 3 only a guess, but I would say it's maybe a couple hundred 4 metres to the back of it, -- 5 Q: That would have been my guess, -- 6 A: -- from the road. 7 Q: -- as well. How wide, sir? 8 A: About the same, maybe a little wider, -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- maybe three hundred (300) metres, I 11 -- I'm not sure. 12 Q: Okay. And where in that parking lot was 13 the St. John's Ambulance van and the fifth-wheel unit as 14 you've described it? Was it closer to East Parkway Drive, 15 was it more towards the middle or the very back of the 16 parking lot? Or can you -- 17 A: I thought they were right around the 18 middle area of it, -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- to the west. 21 Q: And would it be fair to say that the area 22 that surrounds the parking lot is largely bush area? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And if we moved east from that parking 25 lot, and travelled along East Parkway Drive, would we
1861 ultimately come to cottage properties on the south side of 2 the street? 3 A: Yeah, eventually, yeah. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And there's some before I believe, too. 6 Q: All right. Fair enough. So on either 7 side of the parking lot on the south side of that street, you 8 would find cottage properties? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: Okay. Where, in relation to the parking 11 lot, did you see these alcohol bottles? 12 A: I seen them at the back, in the back of 13 that parking lot, -- 14 Q: So the very south end? 15 A: -- the southern -- yes. 16 Q: All right. And what distance from the 17 parking lot boundary as it meets the bush at the south end? 18 How far into the bush? 19 A: It was right there, just on -- there's 20 like a roadway that comes around the back of the parking lot 21 and kind of -- it's partly dune area in there too, so it is 22 -- really hilly. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And it was just -- you can see them from 25 the roadway.
1871 Q: Okay. You -- you indicated that from 2 their appearance, some of the bottles appeared to be quite 3 old, I think you estimated several months old? 4 A: Well, they were weather damaged, you 5 could see that there was some that were broken and stuff like 6 that, and I remember seeing them before any of this had taken 7 place, and I guess people would go back there as a party 8 spot. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: But the reason I mention that, brought 11 this up, it was because those bottles that I had seen, were 12 fairly new looking and the police had, basically had been 13 occupying that parking lot for a number of days. I don't 14 really know how long they had been there. 15 So it would be my estimation that if anybody 16 was drinking there, it would have to be the police or it 17 would have to have been okayed by the police. 18 Q: Or somebody else who had access to that 19 back area? 20 A: And be allowed to drink right there in 21 the presence of police. 22 Q: Well you're assuming, sir, that people 23 drank in the place where the bottle was found, as opposed 24 to -- 25 A: That's an assumption, that's correct.
1881 Q: Excuse me, you indicate a moment ago that 2 this was an area where sometimes people partied? 3 A: Yeah, I had noticed before, like, in 4 summertimes, years past, in my travels around the area. 5 Q: Excuse me. 6 A: And you could see that there was a -- 7 Q: Fair to say, sir, did you know that the 8 area was locally referred to as, Passion Pit? 9 A: No, I wasn't aware of that. 10 Q: Fair enough. 11 A: Who was calling it that, if I might ask? 12 Q: If you're asking me if my source is the 13 OPP, it's not. Sir, tell us again when it was that you saw 14 the bottles. 15 A: Pardon me? 16 Q: When, sir, was it you saw the bottles? 17 What day? 18 A: I believe that was the night of the 7th. 19 Again, I could be mistaken. 20 Q: And when is the last time you had been in 21 that particular area where you saw the bottles? 22 A: The last time I'd been in there before? 23 I wouldn't know. Could have been the year before, I really 24 don't know. 25 Q: All right. Were you aware, sir, that on
1891 October the 14th, 1995 certain bottles were pointed out to 2 the SIU in the area between the MNR parking lot running east 3 towards the intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 4 Drive? 5 A: No, I wasn't aware. 6 Q: Were you aware of any attempts by the 7 occupiers to point out empty alcohol bottles prior to mid- 8 October 1995? 9 A: I remember hearing people talk about that 10 the police were drunk and stuff like that. 11 Q: That's not what I asked you. Were you 12 aware of any efforts by the occupiers to draw to the 13 attention of the SIU before mid-October 1995 -- 14 A: I'm not too -- 15 Q: -- the presence of any empty liquor 16 bottles in this area? 17 A: I'm not too sure about that. 18 Q: Thank you, Mr. Simon. Those are my 19 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 21 much. I gather that Mr. Roland can't complete his cross 22 between now and the end of the day and Ms. McAleer is 23 prepared to play through? 24 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Yes, I am. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long did you
1901 estimate? 2 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: I -- I have indicated 3 thirty (30) to forty-five (45) minutes, but I suspect I will 4 be done within about fifteen (15) to twenty (20). 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine, because 6 I'm advised that our tape is going to run out 3:30. 7 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Well, I'll be finished 8 by 3:30, then. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've been told 10 that we had approximately an hour left on this tape when we 11 started at 2:30, so we might -- we're okay until 3:30. 12 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: I -- I won't waste 13 words, then, Mr. Commissioner. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 16 Q: Good morning, Mr. -- or good afternoon, 17 Mr. Simon. 18 A: Good afternoon. 19 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one 20 (1) of the lawyers who's acting for the former Premier, Mike 21 Harris. You indicated that the Park normally closed on 22 Labour Day. It's my understanding, however, that in past 23 years, the Park closed to overnight camping on Labour Day, 24 but remained open for day use after Labour Day. Is that your 25 understanding as well?
1911 A: If somebody wanted to walk through there, 2 they could walk through there, I guess. I never seen any MNR 3 or anything like that in the area after. They usually closed 4 the Park for the campers and that and I never seen anybody 5 around there. It'd be just local people if they wanted to 6 use the beach area, walking dogs -- whatever. 7 Q: Then they could do so? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And, in fact, when you and your 10 brother entered on September 4th, there were quite a few 11 people still in the Park weren't there? 12 A: I'd witnessed a few, yes. 13 Q: Okay. I -- and I think you indicated 14 that you and your brother actually followed the OPP around as 15 they told people that they should leave the Park; is that 16 correct? 17 A: Yes, and the -- the only people we seen 18 were actually on the beach, so -- on the west side of the 19 point on the beach area of the Park. 20 Q: Was that the beach directly in front of 21 the Provincial Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And did you see the OPP speak to 24 any -- speak to anybody actually in the Provincial Park? 25 A: No, I didn't see any -- anybody inside
1921 the Park. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Not -- not like the -- the regular 4 camping areas. I didn't see nobody around in there. 5 Q: Okay. Did you -- did you and your 6 brother follow the OPP all through the Park? 7 A: We followed a few. There was mostly -- 8 mostly along the front, along the water's edge and I think 9 back in -- there's a section -- the eastern edge where we 10 went in that gate, I believe there was a road where there's 11 some more camping. Coming south, there's a bit of a 12 campground -- circle thing -- back in there. We followed one 13 (1) back there and then we had gone out to the front and 14 around that direction -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- towards the point. 17 Q: And I think you indicated earlier that by 18 the point in time that the OPP had all congregated in the 19 area of the gatehouse that there were in fact some campers 20 there as well? 21 A: Not at the gatehouse, no. 22 Q: Okay. Well, I misunderstood then. I 23 thought you had indicated that there some campers in that 24 area as well. 25 A: No that's -- I meant -- I was probably
1931 talking about that's where they would be registering as they 2 come in, the campers. But there was no campers there, it was 3 just police. 4 Q: And by the time the police had 5 congregated in the area near the gatehouse, did you see any 6 MNR people there as well? 7 A: There could have been. I'm not too sure 8 about that. 9 Q: Okay. Now you said that the OPP did 10 speak to some people down on the beach in front of the 11 Provincial Park, that you and your brother saw that. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And was it your understanding that the 14 OPP were telling those people that they should leave the Park 15 because you and the other occupiers had come into the Park? 16 A: That was was my understanding, yes. 17 Q: Now you also indicated that you overheard 18 part of a conversation between one (1) of the occupiers who I 19 think you indicated may have been Bert Manning, but you 20 weren't certain and an MNR individual who you think may have 21 been Les Kobayashi but you're not certain of that either. Is 22 that correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. Where did that conversation take 25 place?
1941 A: It was over, getting my directions mixed 2 up here again. 3 Q: I -- I think we do have a better map that 4 shows the Park. I don't know if Mr. Millar could put it up 5 or not. 6 A: It was on the eastern edge of the Park 7 but where he'd entered the Park anyway. 8 Q: Okay, I think we have a better map now. 9 Does that map show us the eastern area of the Park where you 10 and your brother entered? 11 A: It doesn't show where the gate is where 12 it comes out on the Matheson Drive at the side. But I 13 believe it's -- well that one there you can see the one (1) 14 road that goes through the middle of the Park, comes out on 15 the eastern edge of the -- 16 Q: Okay. So this -- this conversation that 17 you partially overheard, it didn't take place inside a 18 building then. It was -- it was outside in the Park? 19 A: Yeah, it was outside. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall how many MNR 21 people were present? 22 A: No I don't. 23 Q: Do you remember just seeing the one (1) 24 MNR person? 25 A: There may -- I remember seeing like two
1951 (2) or -- I really don't remember how many. There could have 2 been more. 3 Q: Now, were you by yourself or was your 4 brother with you at that point in time? 5 A: I think I was by myself at that time. 6 Q: Do you remember seeing David George 7 around at that point in time? 8 A: He could have been, I'm not too sure. 9 Q: And is it fair to say that you walked 10 into the middle of that conversation and you didn't hear all 11 of the conversation? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Besides Bert Manning, do you remember if 14 there were any other occupiers who were present during that 15 conversation? 16 A: There was more but I -- I don't remember 17 who or for sure. 18 Q: You may not remember who, but you 19 remember that there was more than just the one person 20 speaking to the MNR employee? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Do you remember how many people? 23 A: There was a small group of people, maybe 24 a dozen people all together that were talking, I'm not sure. 25 Q: Okay. So there was about a dozen people
1961 around this MNR employee? 2 A: Not around him. They were like to the 3 one (1) side and that MNR guy was basically on the other side 4 and there was OPP officers with him and like I said, there 5 could have been more MNR, I don't know. But they had their 6 conversation and like you said, I only caught a part of it -- 7 a portion. 8 Q: Okay. Now you indicated to Mr. Millar 9 when you were talking about the incident involving Wesley 10 George throwing the strobe light. And I -- I'm going to 11 quote your evidence here. It's from page 163 of yesterday's 12 transcript. You indicated: 13 "The guys were kind of chuckling, they were 14 lighting, they were throwing them around 15 all over. They were off to the side." 16 I understood from your evidence that there was 17 -- as a result, that there was more than one (1) person 18 throwing these strobe lights. Is that correct? 19 A: I'm not too sure about that. Like I 20 said, I know for sure that I've seen Wes throwing the one 21 particular one that they had blamed on -- on Dave. 22 The other ones would have been off -- off to 23 the side, later times and I believe that was Wes at the same 24 time. I was just one person but it could have been others. 25 He had different types of firecrackers. He
1971 had those -- those ones that are like flag -- you know get a 2 whole bunch in the pack and then there was those other ones 3 that were the strobe light thing. 4 Q: And -- and was he lighting both of them 5 off during this incident with the OPP near the gate house? 6 A: At that time I believe it was just those 7 strobe lights, he'd thrown a couple. 8 Q: Okay. Now Mr. Millar asked you some 9 questions about how you were fuelling the fires in the 10 Provincial Park and you told us about using picnic tables and 11 then you also indicated that there was slab wood from the 12 Park store. Do you recall -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- discussing that? Now this -- this 15 slab wood, is that something that was kept in the Park store, 16 or was it outside the Park store? 17 A: It was outside the Park store. They have 18 a -- a compound to the west of the Park store. It was right 19 beside it and you could back your vehicle up there and load 20 up however much. 21 Q: Okay. And is that what the Occupiers 22 were doing? Were they backing up their vehicles and loading 23 up the slab wood? 24 A: Some were. Others just -- I don't know, 25 just carried arm loads. Some had pick-up trucks, carry some
1981 over. 2 Q: And was that all being used to fuel the 3 fires in the Provincial Park or were people taking it outside 4 the Provincial Park as well? 5 A: As far as I know, it was just inside the 6 Park. 7 Q: Now we heard some -- 8 A: One more thing. 9 Q: Sorry, go ahead. 10 A: Those picnics tables, just to make it 11 clear. I wasn't too sure if they had been burned like on the 12 -- the day of the 6th, there before. I -- it was definitely 13 after. I wasn't too sure on that point. I wanted to make 14 that clear, those tables. 15 Q: You're not certain if anybody was burning 16 the picnic tables before the 6th? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. I think we've already heard some 19 evidence that people were -- 20 A: All right. 21 Q: -- but that's fine. And we've also heard 22 some evidence that one or perhaps more people, removed a 23 freezer from the Park store. Were you aware of that? 24 A: I was aware that there was a few people 25 that were taking stuff out of there. I'd gone in there and
1991 seen some people actually putting their name on some of the 2 fridges and stuff like that and -- and I didn't really think 3 that was right, especially seeing as some of those names were 4 people that weren't taking part in any of the occupation 5 itself, so. 6 Q: Some of the names were not Stony 7 Pointers? 8 A: I guess. I didn't really know who they 9 were. 10 Q: You didn't recognize the names? 11 A: Yeah, to an extent. I -- well, kind of 12 knew the names, but I didn't really know who they were, if -- 13 if they were from Stony Point or not. They weren't part of 14 the group going -- that had moved into either the base or -- 15 or the Park. 16 Q: So you recognized the names, but you knew 17 they were people who had not participated in the occupation 18 of the Army camp nor the Provincial Park? 19 A: To an extent, yes. 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall any of those names 21 today? 22 A: I couldn't -- couldn't say. 23 Q: Well what was in the Provincial Park? 24 What were people putting their names on? 25 A: That was just inside that store. It was,
2001 like you said, the freezer and some fridges or stuff like 2 that. 3 Q: You'll have to help me out because -- 4 A: Different appliances, whatever they'd 5 have in the store. I'm not really too sure what all. Just 6 various -- various appliances, refrigeration type stuff. 7 Q: Were there stoves? 8 A: Could have been stuff like that, I don't 9 know. Don't really recall. You know, there was definitely 10 some fridges anyway. Other stuff, I wouldn't be so certain 11 about. 12 Q: Okay, and -- 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 17 Q: Mr. Millar advises me that there's a 18 video of that store so perhaps we'll have the opportunity to 19 take a look at it on another day. 20 Did you actually see people removing some of 21 those appliances from the Park store before it was burnt down 22 on September 6th and into the early morning of September 7th? 23 A: No, I don't think so. I don't recall if 24 there was -- I know that there was stuff that had been taken, 25 but I don't think I was witness to it.
2011 Q: Okay. 2 A: Like I said, I'd seen some names on there 3 and heard that stuff was taken, but I wasn't -- wasn't there. 4 Q: Okay. That's fine. Now you also 5 mentioned that some of the Occupiers were using an MNR wagon 6 that had been left there to move picnic tables out into the 7 sandy parking lot. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Apart from the MNR wagon, was there any 11 machinery or equipment that was left in the Provincial Park 12 that the Occupiers were using? 13 A: Not that I can think of. There wasn't 14 really a lot of stuff in there besides tables and the 15 outhouses in the Park. 16 Q: What happened to the tables? 17 A: Those ones that -- that we're talk -- 18 talking about being on the -- that trailer, those were mostly 19 the ones that got burnt. They were the ones that were all -- 20 like, the really old ones -- 21 Q: You meant picnic tables? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. All right. Now, you also 24 indicated that there was an incident where an alarm had gone 25 off in the Park store and that that had given you the idea of
2021 putting an alarm in the "OPP Who" car. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And you indicated that you thought that 4 that, perhaps, had happened after Mr. Dudley George had been 5 shot. 6 Do you remember providing that testimony? 7 A: Yeah, I remember saying that and the -- 8 Q: You know where I'm going, don't you? 9 A: -- yeah -- the store was burnt -- 10 Q: Right. 11 A: -- by that time. 12 Q: Right. So, it must have been at some 13 point prior to that -- 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: -- that the alarm was removed from the 16 Park store. Do you agree with me? 17 A: I'd agree with you. 18 Q: Okay. Do you remember anything more 19 about when that alarm was removed? The circumstances? 20 A: I just remember that we heard it and 21 that's when I had the idea for that, but I -- like I said, I 22 thought it was on the 7th, but after you had pointed out it 23 couldn't have happened on the 7th because it would have been 24 burnt. 25 Q: Okay. And you had the idea, did you
2031 actually follow through? Did you remove the alarm from the 2 store? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: Did you see anybody trying to pull boards 5 off of any of the buildings in the Provincial Park? 6 A: Boards off of buildings? 7 Q: Yeah, like off the outside of a building? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Now, I -- I just want to be clear on the 10 purpose, as you understood it, for taking over the Provincial 11 Park and if I understand your position, you took over the 12 Provincial Park because it formed part of your ancestral 13 territory. Is that correct? 14 A: Part of the reason; that's correct. 15 Q: Okay. Well, what was -- what was the 16 other part of the reason? 17 A: Well, the fact that there's burial 18 grounds in there, the fact that we had a lot of people that 19 were coming from the Park creating a lot of problems with our 20 people on -- on the military side of the beach. There was a 21 number of reasons why -- why we took over the Park. 22 Q: So -- so one (1) of the reasons was 23 simply to protect the borders of the Army Camp because there 24 had been people coming up from the Provincial Park? 25 A: Not to protect the borders, but to
2041 protect our people. That -- so we'd be on -- I don't know, 2 enjoy -- enjoy it and -- without being harassed. 3 If you go down there today, you'll be able to 4 see that on the one (1) side of the -- the Point it's all 5 beach going from the Park down past the Army Base. On the 6 other side of the Point there's a bit of beach in front of 7 the Park and further on there are all the cottages and 8 everything going towards Kettle Point. 9 That Point basically forms a bit of a barrier 10 with the sandy parking lot that's been such -- in question 11 there -- If that had remained closed, there would be 12 virtually no access to -- to -- to our beach on the military 13 side, but that wasn't the only reason, like I said. It's -- 14 I did believe it's -- it's part of our -- our reserve and 15 there's burial sites in there. 16 Q: But it was part of the reason? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. You mentioned that Bob Anton and 19 Bruce Elijah were pretty well known for diffusing tensions 20 and you specifically referred to the Oka crisis. 21 Now, was that a view that you held prior to 22 September of 1995? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. So you -- you knew these two (2) 25 men prior to 1995, at least by reputation as two (2)
2051 individuals who, I think you said, were very good at what 2 they did, being diffusing situations? 3 A: Diffusing -- defusing -- yeah. It's not 4 their only job. They -- their role in the longhouse involves 5 a lot of different things in my understanding, but in a -- 6 when they're in that role of maintaining peace or calm, and 7 yes, they were well-known for that. 8 Q: Prior to September of 1995? 9 A: Yeah. Well, they were -- the thing in 10 Oka happened in '90. 11 Q: Right, and you knew about that? 12 A: Yeah. A lot of people did. 13 Q: Now, you also mentioned a man named Lorne 14 Jacobs and that after your group had occupied the Army Camp 15 in 1993, he had come, as I understood it, to the Army Camp, 16 and had conducted some ceremonies with respect to dealing 17 with the anger that the Occupiers had. 18 Did I understand you evidence correctly? 19 A: Not just -- not just anger, but it was 20 something along those lines. I -- it was my belief that he 21 was the one that lit the sacred fire along the highway -- 22 that's Lorne Jacobs, I wasn't too sure if I heard you 23 correct. It sounded like "Warren" to me, but his name is 24 Lorne. 25 Q: Oh, sorry, Lorne, yes.
2061 A: He's a member of Amadayman (phonetic) 2 Society, so there's -- it's a lot of teachings. It's not 3 just -- that wasn't his sole purpose to calm people, but the 4 teachings he had, had that effect. 5 Q: So that was one (1) of the things that 6 Mr. Jacobs had spoken to you and to the other Occupiers about 7 as far back as 1993? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And where does Mr. Jacobs live? 10 A: I'm not too sure. I haven't seen him in 11 a couple of years, a number of years now. 12 Q: And you also mentioned that Mr. Layton 13 Elijah had a reputation as being instrumental when it came to 14 talking with police. 15 Did you understand that to be Mr. Layton 16 Elijah's reputation prior to September of 1995? 17 A: That was my understanding. I didn't know 18 of him until basically after when he had come down, I guess. 19 If he had come down before, I wasn't aware or introduced. 20 Q: Okay, you may not have been introduced to 21 him before the events, after September 6th, but did you know 22 him by reputation prior? 23 A: No, I didn't. 24 Q: You didn't know him? 25 A: No.
2071 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are all my 2 questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 3 4 (WITNESS RETIRES) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 7 much. It's almost exactly 3:30, so we will adjourn now until 8 Monday morning at 10:30. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir and we'll finish 10 Mr. Simon on Monday morning and then move to Mr. Cecil 11 Bernard George. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Some time on 13 Monday? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Some time on Monday. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 16 much. See you all Monday morning. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until Monday, December the 6th at 10:30 a.m. 19 20 --- Upon adjourning at 3:29 p.m. 21 Certified Correct 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 Dustin Warnock