11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 1st, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 18 (Army Camp) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stoney 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (Np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 11 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 15 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 16 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 17 18 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 19 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 20 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 21 22 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 25 Ian McGilp )
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 WESLEY GEORGE, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jonathon George 7 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 19 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer MacAleer 54 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 56 11 Re-Direct-Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 57 12 13 KEVIN SIMON, Sworn 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 60 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 224 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-99 City TV video, September 07/1995 4 OPP DVD format copied on 2004/04/23 51 5 P-100 Document 1002409, page 13, Ipperwash 6 Military reserve marked by witness 7 Kevin Simon 78 8 P-101 London Free Press Aug 23/93 "Stoney Point 9 Teenager Complains of Assault", and Sarnia 10 Observer, Aug 23/93, "Native Says Military 11 Police Assaulted Him At Camp" 96 12 P-102 Letter addressed to Kevin Simon, 13 received on August 26, 1993. 98 14 P-103 Stan Thompson Drawing, September 15 20/95 marked by Witness 16 Mr. Kevin Simon 170 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is now in 4 session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden presiding. 5 Please be seated. 6 7 WESLEY GEORGE, Resumed 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 10 Who's first up? I think Mr. George, I think Jonathon George 11 was first. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Good morning, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 16 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Good morning, Mr. 17 George. 18 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 19 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: How are you doing 20 today? 21 THE WITNESS: Good. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JONATHON GEORGE: 24 Q: My name is Jonathon George and I 25 represent the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. And I'll
81 be quite brief, okay? There's only one (1) area I wish to 2 cover with you. Now you described yesterday where and when 3 you saw Cecil Bernard George on September the 6th. Do you 4 recall talking about that yesterday? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And I think you indicated that you 7 overheard a conversation between him and others? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay, with respect to him basically 10 offering to bring guns to the people? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. You recall giving that testimony 13 yesterday? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Now I just want to spend some time 16 going over that with you because I want to -- I want to make 17 sure that I fully understand your testimony. Now I take it, 18 and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the conversation you 19 overheard took place in the sandy parking lot, outside the 20 fence near the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And it was obviously given that it 23 was near the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And during yesterday's testimony I
91 don't believe you could recall exactly what time of day that 2 conversation took place. I think you initially said you 3 weren't sure the exact time. You did believe it was 4 daylight, correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you did indicate it was after 7 lunch and I think you ultimately settled on time being near 8 the dinner hour, the supper hour? 9 A: Yeah, somewhere around there. 10 Q: Okay. So it was in the evening some 11 time? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Early evening? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now I hate to jump back and forth but 16 just -- just briefly, with respect to the events that took 17 place later in the evening when the OPP officers came down 18 East Parkway Drive, you described hearing of someone getting 19 kicked and hit and being surrounded by police. And I think 20 you used the word -- you heard that because you were behind 21 the tree line? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And the only time you came out was 24 to find your dad at some point? 25 A: Yes.
101 Q: Okay. 2 A: And I think after you -- after your 3 testimony about hearing about someone getting kicked and hit 4 and being surrounded by police, you found out some time after 5 that, that that was Cecil Bernard George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall who you heard 8 that from? 9 A: I didn't -- no, I don't recall. 10 Q: Okay. So based on your testimony, Mr. 11 George, based on what we just reviewed, is it fair to say 12 that at least to your knowledge, Cecil Bernard George was 13 there on the 6th on two (2) occasions? You saw him once 14 during the daylight hours around supper time and you at least 15 heard of him being there in the evening during the 16 confrontation? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And I might be stating the obvious 19 here, but that conversation you overhead definitely took 20 place on the first occasion that you saw Cecil Bernard 21 George? 22 A: Yeah, I'm pretty sure, yes. 23 Q: While it was still daylight? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Now I want to also confirm, Mr.
111 George, that I have an accurate understanding as to who took 2 part in the conversation you overheard. Now, you testified 3 yesterday that it was quote: 4 "Probably Glenn and a few others." 5 Now I take it from that and you can again 6 correct if I'm wrong, but you weren't directly involved in 7 the conversation but simply overheard Glenn and the few 8 others speaking with Cecil Bernard George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And I think, when Ms. Vella asked 11 you to recall who these others were, you -- you couldn't? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Now, do you know who Buck Doxtator 14 is? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And he was around the Park from 17 September 4th to September 6th, 1995? 18 A: Well, I guess so. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, that's misstating 20 the evidence. The -- just to correct the record, the 21 evidence from Mr. Doxtator is that he was there from December 22 -- September 5th to 6th, not September 4th to 6th, so if this 23 witness is going to be asked to confirm or -- or reject that 24 evidence, he should be advised of Mr. Doxtator's evidence. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
121 CONTINUED BY MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: 2 Q: Okay, that's fine. During that period of 3 time, you saw him around there -- around the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: September 5th -- September 6th? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And, given Mr. George, that you 8 can't recall who the other people were in this conversation 9 we've been talking about, would you agree that it's possible 10 that Buck Doxtator was part of that conversation? 11 A: No, I can't agree to that, no. 12 Q: Okay. You -- you can't rule that out, 13 though, right? 14 A: Yeah, I can't rule it out. 15 Q: Okay. And if I suggested to you, Mr. 16 George, that the conversation you overheard in the sandy 17 parking lot was, in fact, a joking-type conversation between 18 Cecil Bernard George and the others, would you have any 19 reason to disagree with that? 20 A: I don't think they'd be joking about 21 something like that. 22 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. George, I'm going -- I'm 23 going to read to you, a portion of Buck -- Did you know that 24 Buck Doxtator testified earlier in this proceeding? 25 A: Yes.
131 Q: Okay. And were you here listening to any 2 of that evidence? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to read to you, 5 portions of the evidence he gave on November 25th. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So I need you to listen and follow along 8 with me. For the benefit of my Friends, Commissioner, I'm 9 referring to Buck -- Isaac Buck Doxtator's testimony, I 10 believe on November 25th, 2004. And I'm starting on Page 170 11 and -- and I'll be directing the witness to certain portions 12 beginning on Page 170 through to Page 173. So I need you to 13 follow along with me, okay, Mr. George? 14 On Page 170, starting on Line 14, Ms. Vella 15 asked Buck Doxtator: 16 "All right. I'd like to move, then, to the 17 late afternoon/early evening of Wednesday, 18 September the 6th, 1995. Were you still in 19 the Park at that time?" 20 And it appears we're talking about at or 21 around the same time that we've been discussing, right? Do 22 you agree with that? 23 A: Yeah, I guess so. 24 Q: Okay. And Buck Doxtator answered, "Yes." 25 The next question:
141 "Okay. At some point in time, did you see 2 Cecil Bernard George arrive at the Park?" 3 The answer he gave was: 4 "I believe we went up front to get a coffee 5 or something, like, up to the barracks and 6 we came back and I remember seeing Cecil. 7 You're talking about Slippery?" 8 Ms. Vella indicated, Yes, and the answer was: 9 "Yeah, I remember seeing him there. 10 Q: All right. Just for the record, Cecil 11 Bernard George is also known to you as 12 Slippery?" 13 Now, Mr. George, do -- do you know Cecil 14 Bernard George as -- as Slippery, as well? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Now, for the benefit of my 17 Friends, Your Honour, I'm jumping to Line 10 on Page 172 of 18 the transcript -- Line 8, actually. And Ms. Vella asked 19 Isaac Buck Doxtator: 20 "Okay, and did you see whether he had 21 anything with him?" 22 And -- and the answer Mr. Doxtator gave was: 23 "No. Again, he was standing about -- quite 24 a ways away, here to the wall, maybe, from 25 me, but he waved at us all. We pulled up
151 and got out. He was talking to a group of 2 people." 3 The next question was: 4 "All right. And he was talking to them, 5 actually, on the beach" 6 The answer, "No." The next question: 7 "Where?" 8 Mr. Buck -- Buck Doxtator answered: 9 "Right by the Park." 10 So, that also appears to be at or around the 11 same area we were discussing earlier? Do you agree with 12 that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. 15 "Q: By the Park?" 16 Mr. Buck Doxtator said, "Yeah." 17 And, Commissioner, I'm now going to be 18 referring to Page 173. On Line 2, Ms. Vella -- Mr. George -- 19 Ms. Vella asked Mr. Buck Doxtator: 20 "All right. So you're pointing to..." 21 Just so you know, they were referring to a map 22 similar to the one that's behind you. The question: 23 "All right. So you're pointing at an area 24 that is designated as the sandy parking lot 25 area."
161 And Mr. Buck Doxtator answered: 2 "The sand covered roadway, yeah." 3 And, again, that appears to be the same area 4 that we were discussing earlier? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And moving to line 11, Commissioner, the 7 question that Ms. Vella posed was: 8 "All right. And did you go and speak with 9 Cecil Bernard George?" 10 The answer: 11 "Well, he was talking to the people and he 12 hollered over and I waved at him 'cause I 13 know him. He waved and he says he was 14 going to tell them to get batteries. He 15 had two (2) police scanners and two (2) 16 walkie talkies but they needed batteries. 17 And he asked if we needed anything else." 18 Then it goes on, the answer: 19 "Yeah. So he asked if we needed anything 20 so I joking, you know, I was joking around 21 and I says, yeah. I says, send some of 22 those men you've got over in Kettle Point 23 and some of them AK47s you got hanging on 24 the wall." 25 He went on to say:
171 "I just said that, you know, joking 2 around." 3 The question by Ms. Vella: 4 "Okay. All right. And how did AK47s 5 spring to mind as the --" 6 The answer: 7 "Oh, I don't know." 8 Next question: 9 "Okay." 10 And Mr. Doxtator just said: 11 "He [being Cecil Bernard George] just 12 laughed and he left." 13 Now, after hearing the evidence that Mr. 14 Doxtator gave under oath, does that either cause you to 15 change your recollection or to agree with my suggestion that 16 perhaps, maybe the conversation you overheard was of that 17 nature, a joking-type conversation? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Now back in September 1995, you, 20 if my math is correct, would have been about fifteen (15) 21 years old? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say that although 24 you didn't know he was -- you knew who he was, you didn't 25 know him personally, that being Cecil Bernard George?
181 A: I knew him personally. 2 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say, Mr. 3 George, that based on what you saw, and I don't want you to 4 speculate, I want you to say what you know, that there were 5 other occupiers who did know Cecil Bernard George better than 6 you? Would that be a fair thing for me to say? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Are you aware that Glenn George, 9 and in fact some of your uncles, knew Cecil Bernard George 10 their whole lives? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And were you aware that Cecil 13 Bernard George had a sister and a brother who were also part 14 of the Park occupation? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Two (2) brothers. 18 Q: Okay. And Cecil Bernard George was not a 19 part of the occupation of the Park? 20 A: No, not to my understanding. 21 Q: Okay. And prior to you seeing him during 22 the daylight hours on September 6th, you hadn't seen him at 23 the Park area at all prior to then, from the 4th until that 24 point on the 6th? 25 A: I never seen him, I could have seen him,
191 I don't know. I can't recall right now anyway. 2 Q: You don't recall seeing him? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And going back in time, you never 5 knew Cecil Bernard George to be a resident of the barracks or 6 to have participated in the camping on the -- on the ranges, 7 from '93 to '95? 8 A: Not when I was there, no. 9 Q: Okay. And did you know then, or later 10 find out that Cecil Bernard George was an Elected Member of 11 the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 12 A: Yeah. I knew Cecil. 13 Q: Okay. You knew that at the time? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. George. 16 Those are my questions for you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, Mr. 18 George. I'm not sure, I think -- who's next, Mr. McGilp? I 19 don't think there are any other Aboriginal parties who 20 indicated an intention to examine. I think the OPPA is next. 21 MR. IAN McGILP: Thank you, sir. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 24 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. My name is Ian 25 McGilp, and I'm one (1) of the lawyers who represent the
201 Ontario Provincial Police Association. 2 I understand, sir, that you told us yesterday 3 that prior to July 29th of 1993, you attended a meeting with 4 others where a decision was made -- I'm sorry, no, July -- 5 I'm sorry, July 29, 1995, I'm sorry. 6 You attended a meeting with others where a 7 decision was taken to takeover the built-up area or the 8 barracks, do you recall that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when Marlin Simon was here -- you 11 know Marlin don't you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And when he was here and gave evidence on 14 October the 12th, he told us that the school bus was used as 15 a diversion in taking over the built-up area. And by that he 16 meant that the school bus with some people on it, entered the 17 built-up area through one gate and that the majority of the 18 military people who were there moved down to see what was 19 going on. And when they did that, other people came in the 20 gate, the other gate. 21 Do you recall that matter of using the bus as 22 a diversion in that manner being discussed at that meeting? 23 A: I don't know if it was being discussed. 24 Probably, but yes, I recall that, yeah. 25 Q: You recall some kind of discussion about
211 using the bus in that way? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And were there any other plans discussed 4 at that meeting that you can tell the Commissioner about with 5 respect to how the actual takeover of the built-up area would 6 be -- would occur? Were there any other plans that you can 7 recall that were discussed? 8 A: I don't think so, no. 9 Q: There weren't any particular buildings 10 that the occupiers or that the demonstrators hoped to occupy? 11 Was -- was the idea that you would takeover the whole area? 12 A: Yeah, the whole area. 13 Q: The whole area? And that was -- that was 14 something that was discussed? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now I believe you mentioned, sir, that -- 17 that there were a few people from other First Nations that 18 were at that meeting too. Do you recall saying that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And again, referring to the evidence of 21 Marlin Simon on October the 12th, I'll take you to that -- 22 what he said about that, if I may. And this is Marlin Simon 23 on October the 12th, on page 143 and -- and the question is: 24 "Q: And I think you told the Commissioner 25 that there were people from Oneida, from
221 Walpole and Sarnia who were also there when 2 you decided to enter the built-up area? 3 A: Yeah, there was people from Ravens 4 Town and Muncey and Chippewa of the Thames. 5 Q: Okay. So I take it that you and other 6 people had spoken with a large number of 7 people about your plans? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And I also take it that you wanted 10 more people there so that you had lots of 11 numbers on your side? 12 A: Yeah, sure." 13 Now do you recollect, can you help the 14 Commission at all with respect to -- do you recall, first of 15 all, that there were people from Oneida, Walpole, Sarnia, 16 Muncey? 17 A: I can't say for sure, but I imagine so, 18 yeah. 19 Q: You imagine so. I'm just going to ask 20 you, sir, about some names to see if you can help us identify 21 who might have been there and it may be that you cannot and 22 if you cannot, you'll just say so, please. You know Buck 23 Doxtator, you indicated earlier today, was he there at that 24 meeting that you recall? 25 A: No. I can't remember, no.
231 Q: You can't remember. And what about 2 Gabriel Doxtator? 3 A: Can't remember. 4 Q: Do you remember about the Jewel brothers? 5 Were they there? 6 A: Yeah. They were probably there. I can't 7 say for sure. 8 Q: But you believe they were probably there. 9 That's Russ Jewel and Les Jewel? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: What about the Isaac brothers? Do you 12 recall if they were there? That's Robert, Sam, and Ed Isaac? 13 A: No. I can't recall. 14 Q: You can't recall. What about Bruce 15 Elijah, do you recall whether he was there? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You don't recall? 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: What about Layton Elijah, do you recall? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. So I guess -- I guess it's fair to 22 say you can't really recall who was there at that meeting 23 other than the Jewel brothers from other First Nations? Can 24 you help the Commissioner at all on that matter? 25 A: No. I can't remember.
241 Q: That's the best you can do? Thank you, 2 Mr. George, that's fair. 3 Now you mentioned yesterday I believe, that 4 you were a passenger in a car that had a -- an accident at 5 the intersection of Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road. Could 6 you tell us, sir, exactly, what was the date of that 7 accident, do you recall? 8 A: I can't recall the date -- August -- 9 sometime in August -- end of August -- 29th or something. 10 Q: Do you -- do you mean the -- the end of 11 July or the end of August? 12 A: August, July -- I don't know. I can't 13 recall, I was in a car accident. I was knocked out for three 14 (3) days. I can't remember -- 15 Q: The day? 16 A: -- the date. 17 Q: I have a -- a report from the Windsor 18 Star dated August the 2nd of 1995, and it talked -- it's 19 under the heading, "Impass at Ipperwash" and for the benefit 20 of my Friends, the document number is 2001762, and this 21 article says the following: 22 "Ontario Provincial Police reported that a 23 car carrying four (4) Natives failed to 24 stop at an intersection stop sign and went 25 into a ditch near the southwest corner of
251 the Base." 2 And then it goes on to describe the driver and 3 the passenger who were killed in the accident. And then it 4 describes: 5 "Wesley George, 15, was taken to London for 6 treatment and then a fourth occupant of the 7 car refused medical treatment according to 8 the police." 9 Now, this article appears in the paper on 10 August the 2nd of 1995. Does that assist you? And then it 11 says -- it says that -- I think somewhere, I'm not sure. In 12 any event, the article was published on August the 2nd. Does 13 that assist you in determining when that accident occurred? 14 A: Yeah, I guess so. 15 Q: It would have been before that, right? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And do you remember what time of day it 18 was that the accident occurred? Was it nighttime? I'm 19 sorry. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Scullion...? 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's just an objection 23 as to relevance. The -- the accident was referred to in the 24 background in terms of how long he was at the Base and when 25 he moved back to Sarnia.
261 I don't know if we're getting into the details 2 of the accident or what type of investigation my Friend is 3 undertaking, but it seems to me that the accident occurred, 4 we've now established the date of the accident, and Mr. 5 George then returned to Sarnia. My objection is it's -- it's 6 absolutely irrelevant to what we're doing here. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we have 8 heard some evidence -- we've heard some evidence about this 9 accident. 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: That it occurred, yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That it occurred 12 and so I'm not sure where Mr. McGilp is going or how far he's 13 going into it or if there is any connection to the occupation 14 or not, I don't know, so, let's see how far he's going. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 17 your objection. If it's off in irrelevant areas, then we'll 18 stop. I'm not sure, Mr. McGilp, how far are you taking -- 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: I -- I don't have any more 20 questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't think 22 so. 23 MR. IAN MCGILP: I don't intend to go very 24 far with this. 25
271 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 2 Q: I was asking, do you remember what time 3 of day it was? Was it dark? 4 A: It was dark, yeah. 5 Q: And do you know where you were coming 6 from in that car? 7 A: I was coming from the beach. 8 Q: From the beach? Do you know where -- do 9 you remember where you were going to? 10 A: The barracks. 11 Q: To the barracks? And had there been a 12 party down at the beach that night? 13 A: I can't tell you. 14 Q: You can't recall. Was there a 15 celebration of some kind relating to the takeover of the 16 barracks? This was -- the takeover was July 29th. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's around the 18 -- 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: This was August -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. IAN MCGILP: -- August the 1st. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes 23 MR. IAN MCGILP: -- or July the 30th, some 24 time in there. 25
281 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 2 Q: Was the -- was there a celebration with 3 respect to the takeover of the barracks? 4 A: Could have been, I don't know. 5 Q: And was -- was there drinking involved in 6 that celebration if there was one (1)? 7 A: I don't know. If I was there, I'd know, 8 but I don't know. 9 Q: Were you drinking at that -- that 10 evening? Do you recall? 11 A: No, I wasn't. 12 Q: And do you know whether the driver was 13 drinking? 14 A: Yeah, he was. 15 Q: He had been? Do you recall at all 16 whether the car was going fast as it went along? Was it 17 speeding along Matheson Drive or was it travelling slowly? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 19 about that. I mean, is that relevant, somehow? The rate of 20 speed or the -- 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I just registered my 22 objection -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or the 24 circumstances? I'm not sure. 25 MR. IAN MCGILP: Sir, I would submit that the
291 circumstances of the accident, the speed of the car, whether 2 it stopped at the stop sign, whether the driver had been 3 drinking, are related to the issues here in the sense that it 4 occurs very shortly after the time of the takeover of the 5 barracks and the witness indicates that there may have been a 6 celebration of that event and my submission would be that the 7 accident may have been related to the celebration of the 8 takeover of the barracks. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure how 10 that's relevant. Ms. Vella, perhaps -- 11 MR. IAN MCGILP: I'll withdraw the question, 12 sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, I think 14 you've gone as far as you need to go in establishing -- 15 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that there 17 was an accident. 18 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, sir. Thank you, 19 sir. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 22 Q: Sorry, Mr. George. I would next turn 23 your attention, if I may, to September the 6th and in 24 particular to the incident that involved Gerald George and 25 Stewart George, do you recall that incident?
301 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you said, I believe, yesterday that 3 you were a few feet away from that incident when it occurred. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And were you outside the Park on the 6 sandy parking lot when you observed that? 7 A: I was on the roadway, yeah. 8 Q: You were on the roadway? 9 A: Like at the side of the road, yeah. 10 Q: On -- on the side of the road near the 11 sandy parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. And were there -- there were a 14 number of others there I believe, were there not? 15 A: A couple of others, yeah. 16 Q: A couple of others. Do you remember how 17 many at all? 18 A: Two (2) at the most. 19 Q: Two (2) at the most? And did you have a 20 stick or a club in your hand at that time when you were out 21 there? 22 A: I don't think so, no. 23 Q: You don't think so. Do you know whether 24 the others did? 25 A: I'm not too sure.
311 Q: You're not too sure? On November the 8th 2 of this year, Clayton George gave evidence in this 3 proceeding, and in cross-examination by Mr. Sandler on page 4 92, he's asked the following questions and they're talking 5 about Wednesday, September the 6th. 6 "Q: And again, I expect there's going to 7 be some evidence that at about 7:30 that 8 evening a group of occupiers were standing 9 at the intersection of Army Camp Road and 10 East Parkway Drive and four (4) or five (5) 11 had appeared to be -- had what appeared to 12 be axe handles in their hands or sticks and 13 bats. And an individual was told to get 14 out of the area, this wasn't his fight. 15 First of all, were you one (1) of those 16 occupiers? 17 A: Out on -- out on the road? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You were? And what did you have in 21 your hands? 22 A: Just a stick." 23 Now the evidence that is anticipated that the 24 Commission will hear in due course is evidence that was 25 referred to in that passage, is the evidence of the Detective
321 Sergeant Mark Wright who will, we anticipate, give evidence 2 to the effect that he drove through that intersection at 3 about 7:30 or 7:45 that evening and that he saw a group of, I 4 think he said eight (8) to ten (10) male Natives standing in 5 the intersection, and that some four (4) or five (5) of them 6 had clubs. 7 And when that evidence or anticipated evidence 8 was put to Clayton George, Clayton admitted that he had a 9 stick in his hand. 10 Having heard the evidence of Clayton and 11 having been -- heard the anticipated evidence from Detective 12 Wright, does that refresh your memory at all about whether 13 other individuals in that intersection at that -- at that 14 point in time had sticks or clubs in their hand? 15 A: I don't know. They could have. 16 Q: They could have, but you're not sure. 17 A: I'm not sure. 18 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. Now I believe you 19 told Ms. Vella yesterday that on September the 6th, that 20 there was a checkpoint by the main gate at the entrance to 21 the Park and into the sandy parking lot. Do you recall that? 22 A: I don't know if it was a checkpoint. 23 There was people sitting around, yeah. 24 Q: A point that which -- or a place that 25 which people could observe what was happening out on the
331 roadway. Is that correct? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And could you just on the map behind you, 4 could you point to where that -- the area that you are 5 referring to when you say that? 6 A: It's not on there. 7 Q: You said that -- that the area was near 8 the main gate, did you not? 9 A: The roadway's over here. It's not on 10 here. 11 Q: So the -- the observation post you were 12 talking about was up around Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road 13 was it? 14 A: Matheson Drive would be way down here. 15 There's a gateway to get in the Park around here. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: That was the fire I was talking about. 18 Q: The -- the -- I wasn't asking you 19 actually, sir, about the fire, but about the observation 20 point or the point -- 21 A: Yeah. Well, same thing. People sitting 22 around the fire. 23 Q: Same thing, I see. And so that -- and so 24 you're indicating that that fire and the people sitting 25 around it was somewhere south of the intersection along Army
341 Camp Road, is that correct? 2 A: Yeah. If it's the right one we're 3 talking about. 4 Q: And was that the only place that you saw 5 people observing what was going on? I suggest to you that 6 from that location that you've just described, individuals 7 there could not see what was happening on East Parkway Drive, 8 could they? 9 A: No, they were just -- just the gate where 10 they were sitting, that's the only thing they were looking 11 after. 12 Q: That they were looking at, yes. And were 13 there other people, to your recollection, observing what was 14 in another location, whereby they could observe what was 15 happening on East Parkway? 16 A: Not that I know of. 17 Q: Not that you recall? Now if I could draw 18 your attention, sir, to the events surrounding the arrest of 19 Cecil Bernard George. On September the 11th of 1997, you 20 gave a statement to the SIU; do you recall that event? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I'm just going to read you a short 23 passage -- I'm sorry, did I get the date wrong? 11 September 24 1997, I'm sorry, sir. Yes. 25
351 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP 4 Q: I'm sorry, I'm confusing everybody, Mr. 5 George, by my inability to get dates straight in my mind. 6 On page 3 of the statement you gave to the SIU -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Scullion...? 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I just -- if you don't 10 mind, Commissioner -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Ms. Vella, 12 do I have a copy of the statement? 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 15 Q: So I'm only going to read you a very 16 short -- it's about four (4) lines or five (5) lines, from 17 the statement. If it was longer... 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: 1004587 is the number for this document. 22 Sir you have now, if you could -- what tab is that? Well, he 23 doesn't have a copy. I'm sorry sir, I thought you had a copy 24 of it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I have a
361 copy of one (1) on October '95. 2 MR. IAN MCGILP: I don't think he needs a 3 copy, sir, I'm just going to read him a very short passage. 4 I think he'll be able to follow along quite evidently. Mr. 5 George has -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you think you 7 need the statement, we will stop and get you a copy. We'll 8 see. 9 MR. IAN McGILP: Yes, if you'd like -- if 10 you'd prefer -- oh, here comes a copy now. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 13 Q: If you could look on page 3 of that 14 document, sir. And down near the bottom of the page about 15 eight (8) lines up, Mr. Kennedy asks: 16 "You never saw Cecil Bernard George 17 confront the police or be arrested?" 18 Do you find that location in the document, 19 sir? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your answer was: 22 "I seen him confront the police when he was 23 running like out there, and I know he was 24 yelling and all, that -- that's when he 25 went out there to fight them and that's --
371 you could hear him fighting. Everybody 2 else started fighting and sort of hectic." 3 Now, we know from the evidence that Cecil 4 Bernard George gave at the -- we've heard evidence in this 5 proceeding that Cecil Bernard George had a club in his hand 6 when he went out there towards the police that night. 7 And we know from the evidence that Cecil Bernard George 8 himself gave at the David George trial, that he admits that 9 he had a club and that he hit the police with that club. 10 Now the question I would ask you, sir, is that 11 in light of what you told the SIU on September the 11th of 12 '97, and in light of the fact that Cecil Bernard George 13 himself admits that he had a club and then he went out and 14 hit the police with his stick; would you agree that Cecil 15 Bernard George went out there to fight the police armed with 16 a club or stick? 17 A: Well, if he told you he did, he must 18 have. 19 Q: Does that comport with your recollection 20 of the event, sir? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, continuing on on that -- 23 with respect to September the 6th, you told us yesterday that 24 you saw the bus exit the Park. Is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
381 Q: Where were the police at the moment that 2 the bus exited the Park, as far as you can recall? 3 A: On the roadway. 4 Q: On the roadway? Could you indicate on 5 the map, please, approximately where they were positioned on 6 the roadway? 7 A: Do you want me draw the spot on there, or 8 what? 9 Q: Yes, sir, if you could draw -- indicate 10 in whatever way you feel comfortable with, where the police 11 were when the bus exited the Park. In that area there? 12 A: Around in that area, yes. 13 Q: In that area there? 14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be number 9 on the 15 map, please. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 18 Q: Yes, could you put a number 9 there, 19 please? And for the record, the witness is -- is indicating 20 an area that could probably be described as right on the 21 corner of the intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 22 Drive. 23 Now, Mr. Stacey George, when he was here 24 giving evidence, told the Commission that the police were 25 retreating when the bus left the Park. Do you agree with
391 that? 2 A: Yeah, well, if I was going to draw a 3 circle on there, I could draw all the way around, like where 4 the cops were. 5 Q: But the circle you have drawn indicates 6 the main body of where the police were. Is that right? 7 A: Yes, well, there could have been police 8 all over the whole road. I don't know for sure. 9 Q: But that was the main body of them, in 10 circle number 9? Is that correct? 11 A: Yeah, I could say that, yeah. 12 Q: Yes. And were they moving in -- were 13 they retreating or moving in a -- what is that, eastward 14 direction on East Parkway Drive at the time the bus exited 15 the Park? I'm sorry, west -- in a westerly direction on East 16 Parkway Drive when the bus exited the Park? 17 A: They went all over. I can't say they 18 went any one (1) direction. The cops went all over the place 19 when the bus went through and I don't want to say it went 20 through fast, because it wasn't going fast. 21 Q: I understand that, sir, but I'm not 22 talking about the point in time when the bus goes through the 23 line of police, I'm talking about the point in time when the 24 bus exits the Park -- comes out of the Park for the -- the 25 first moment that the bus comes out of the Park.
401 And I'm trying to get your best recollection 2 of what the police were doing at the moment that the bus left 3 the Park. Were they backing up or travelling -- or moving 4 westward on East Parkway Drive at the moment that you saw the 5 bus leave the Park? 6 A: Yes, I guess you can say that. 7 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, sir, I may -- if I 8 may, I would like to ask you a few questions about the 9 location of Mr. Dudley George on that evening. 10 You told us yesterday, I believe, that you 11 advanced up on -- looking on that map -- you drew an "X" and 12 I can't see the number from here, but there's an "X" 13 indicating that your forward position that evening during the 14 confrontation was approximately at the -- some people call it 15 the first, some call it the second cottage driveway, but it's 16 the first cottage driveway that is exiting off of East 17 Parkway Drive and the -- the bus and the car and you were all 18 up in that area of the first driveway. Is that correct? I 19 think -- I think -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes. And -- and you said, I believe, 22 that you heard shots and at that time you started running 23 back to the -- towards the Park. Is that correct? 24 A: No, I didn't start running back towards 25 the Park at that point in time after the shots. I stood
411 there for a little bit. 2 Q: So, when you heard the shots, you stayed 3 there for -- for what? A few seconds? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And then you turned and started running 6 back towards the Park. Is that correct? 7 A: Not right away, no. 8 Q: After a few seconds, you started running 9 -- 10 A: When the bus was reversing. 11 Q: When the bus started reversing -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- that's when you started running back 14 to the Park? 15 A: Alongside of the bus, yeah. 16 Q: Alongside of the bus, yes. Now, I 17 believe you said that while you were running back, you turned 18 around at some point and you saw Dudley George running behind 19 you. Is that correct? 20 A: No, the bus had passed me in order to get 21 a -- the bus came back so far -- 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: -- and I was beside the bus and the bus 24 got back to the fence area. 25 Q: Yes.
421 A: And I was still standing on -- on the 2 road and then we were coming in. Like, there was a bunch of 3 people behind me and off to the side, so -- 4 Q: I'm going to take you again to your -- 5 the evidence, or the statement you gave to the SIU. This 6 time it was on October the 14th and the number for that 7 document is 1002541 and it's Tab 2. Does he have that 8 document? It's Tab 2 in that black folder we just gave you. 9 It's Tab 2 in the Commission's folder, if that helps you, 10 sorry. 11 And I would ask you to turn to page 10. Do 12 you have that document, sir, the statement you gave on 13 October the 14th of 1995? 14 A: 15th? 15 Q: October the 14th of 1995, and it should 16 be at -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 2. 18 MR. IAN MCGILP: Tab 2 of the Commission's 19 binder. Pardon me? 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's the tab before the one 21 he's looking at. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCILP: 24 Q: It's the tab before the one you're looking 25 at apparently. Ms. Vella will assist you. You should have
431 no sympathy for lawyers, Mr. George, but I can only tell that 2 lawyers have even more paper and more tabs to find than you 3 do. Could you look at page 10 of that document, sir? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And about halfway down the page, you 6 say: 7 "I was running back into the back of that 8 because I could hear gunshots and the 9 firing going off and I was looking back and 10 Dudley was right there. 11 He was right next to you where you were 12 running? 13 Yeah. 14 Was he standing at this time? 15 He was running." 16 Now I take it from that exchange that at least 17 in 1997, it was quite clear to you that at some point you 18 looked back behind you while you were running and you saw 19 Dudley George running behind you. Is that correct? 20 A: Just before he got shot, yes. 21 Q: Just before he got shot. Can you 22 indicate on the map for the Commission please, where Dudley 23 George was when you looked back and saw him running before he 24 was shot as you said? And you've put an X on the map. And 25 for the record it appears to be --
441 THE REGISTRAR: Number 10. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 4 Q: Would you mark that number 10, please. 5 Yes, that X? Just underneath it is fine. And that the mark 6 with the X 10 appears to be slightly to the east of the sand 7 pile. Pardon me, no, it's east of the sand pile. I'm not 8 the only one that gets confused about dates and -- and 9 directions. 10 On -- on the map that -- that X with number 10 11 beside it is slightly to the east of the sand pile that is 12 drawn on that map. Could you tell the Commissioner, sir, 13 what direction Dudley George was facing him when you saw him 14 that first time, the first time you looked back and he was 15 running? Could you tell the Commissioner in what direction 16 he was running in? Or what direction he was facing? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Mr. Scullion has asked me to draw your 21 attention, sir, before you answer that question, to page 11 22 and just to a few passages that are right after the passage 23 we have already referred to. And so you say on page 10 that 24 he was running and then underneath that Mr. Wilson says: 25 "He was running at this time, okay. So
451 he's running, you're both running at this 2 time, eh? What happened after this? 3 A: After we were running? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: That's when he fell. 6 Q: Moments after he fell? 7 A: He fell when he was running. I never 8 noticed him before. I just noticed him 9 when he was falling down. He was running 10 and he fell down and my dad -- and my dad 11 was right behind him, he says, Dudley's 12 down and I stopped. 13 Q: Did you actually see him fall or did 14 A: No. 15 Q: When you looked back, he was already 16 down I take it? 17 A: Yeah I glanced at him. 18 Q: And he was down on the ground at that 19 time? 20 A: Yes." 21 Now the question that I have, sir, is: What 22 direction, if you can recall, what direction was Dudley 23 George facing when you glanced back that first time and saw 24 him running? Can you recall what direction he was facing? 25 A: He was facing towards the gateway, but I
461 just want to say that, about this sand pile here. I don't 2 recall it being there. 3 Q: I understand that. 4 A: And if it was we were further up on 5 there. 6 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. I mean, several 7 people have told the Commission that that sand pile was not 8 there on September the 6th and I only referred to it as a way 9 of putting on the record, some indication of where you drew 10 that 'X' so that someone reading the transcript will know 11 what we're talking about if they don't have the map in front 12 of them; do you understand? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, I'm going to refer 15 to you -- you to the evidence -- some more evidence given by 16 Marlin Simon. On this occasion it was October the 18th of 17 this year, and I'm reading from page 118. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 22 Q: I'm sorry, Mr. George. I believe you 23 told Ms. Vella yesterday that when you were running back 24 towards the Park, you stopped at some point when you got to 25 the sandy parking lot; do you recall that?
471 A: Not to, but like, before, like I said, 2 the bus passed me. 3 Q: Yes. Could you indicate on the map, with 4 an 'X', where you were when you stopped running, as best as 5 you can recall? And could you put a Number 11 by that 'X', 6 please? Thank you. 7 And, again I have to indicate for the record, 8 where that 'X' is, and I would describe it as approximately 9 in the middle of the corner at the intersection of Army Camp 10 Road and East Parkway Drive. 11 Now, you ran up -- you ran from your forward 12 point along East Parkway Drive to X 11 and you indicated, I 13 believe in the SIU statement that we read, that when you 14 turned around and saw Dudley, you were running and he was 15 running? 16 A: Not running, jogging, I said. 17 Q: Jogging, yes. 18 A: I said running at the time. 19 Q: Okay. But jogging is more accurate? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So you were jogging and you look around 22 and you see Dudley jogging. Now, if you were -- if you 23 stopped jogging when you got to point X 11, and you turned 24 around and saw Dudley jogging behind you, before you got to 25 X 11, before you stopped running, then Dudley George must
481 have been on the pavement when you saw him that first time; 2 is that not correct? 3 A: No, I stopped, and then I start running 4 again. I stopped, ran off the road, and he was behind me. 5 While we were running back to the fence -- 6 Q: I see. Let me see if I have that 7 straight. So you're running along East Parkway Drive until 8 you get to point X 11 and then you stop; is that correct? 9 A: Stop, start running -- 10 Q: And then you start running again -- 11 A: Yeah, ran down towards the fence -- 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: -- and that's when Dudley was behind me. 14 Q: And -- and that's when you saw Dudley 15 running behind you? 16 A: Yeah. Well, I knew he was running behind 17 me already at that point in time when we got back there, and 18 then I looked, glanced at him. Next time I looked at him 19 when he was at X 7, he was shot -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- and he was falling to his knees. 22 Q: Okay. If I can, sir, I'm going to refer 23 you to evidence from Mr. Marlin Simon on October the 18th, at 24 page 118. Question: 25 "Okay. And can you help us understand what
491 you were -- what things you were doing in 2 the Park on September the 7th?" 3 And that's of course the day after the 4 shooting of Dudley George. 5 "A: I don't know. I went over to the 6 parking lot and just looking around and 7 showing people where -- where and what was 8 going on. I think we started a fire where 9 we found a blood spot right on East Parkway 10 Drive. We started a fire right there where 11 Dudley got shot first -- the first time he 12 got shot. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I guess that's where he got shot up. 15 Yeah, that's -- and then we started a fire 16 right there." 17 And now, sir, over the page on Page 120: 18 "Q: Okay, and you talked about lighting a 19 fire. And do I understand -- can you help 20 us understand where you lit the fire? 21 A: There was a blood spot. I'm not sure, 22 I think it was on the north side of that 23 roadway, right around there somewhere and 24 that's where we lit the fire. 25 Q: Okay. And you -- and you used your
501 pointer and you've pointed to the north 2 side of East Parkway, very close to the 3 first driveway to the north. 4 A: Yes." 5 Now, sir, we have -- we have the benefit of 6 having a video that was filmed by City TV on September the 7 8th, and in that video, you will see a fire burning on the 8 road, on the -- on the corner, or up from the corner on East 9 Parkway Drive. If you could just take a second, sir, and 10 watch the video. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 15 Q: Now, sir, I should explain one (1) thing 16 about that video. The reason that it seems to repeat itself 17 is that this was raw video shot by City Television on the 18 scene on Oct -- on September the 8th, but that's the raw 19 video and then they edit that down and use whatever they 20 choose to use of it on their actual broadcast, but that's the 21 raw video and so it's repetitive. 22 Now, the question I have, sir, is having seen 23 that video, and having heard Marlin's -- Marlin Simons' 24 evidence and seeing the video and the location of the fire on 25 -- on East Parkway Drive there, does that refresh your memory
511 or assist you in any way as to where you saw Dudley George 2 when he was running? 3 A: No, it doesn't. Like, I drew that "X" 4 there for -- as an estimation of the line I ran back to where 5 Dudley -- where I seen him and not -- I can't tell you where 6 Dudley was anywhere before I seen him up here while we were 7 running in this area here. 8 Q: So, you're saying that you didn't see 9 Dudley in that area where the fire was? 10 A: No, I didn't see him there. 11 Q: The first time you saw Dudley he was 12 already on the sand parking lot? 13 A: Yeah, we were running back towards -- 14 Q: You were running back towards the Park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Fair enough, Mr. George. Thank you. 17 Now, sir, I just -- I'm sorry, yes -- could we 18 make that video an exhibit, please? I'm not sure of the next 19 number. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-99, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-99. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-99: City TV video, September 07/1995 24 OPP DVD format copied on 2004/04/23 25
521 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 2 Q: Sir, I just have a couple of more quick 3 questions for you. I think you told the Commission yesterday 4 that on September the 4th, you threw strobe lights at the 5 OPP? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that -- and I think you've also said 8 that on September 5th you threw rocks at a helicopter that 9 was low down on the tree tops, is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then also on September the 5th, you 12 threw rocks at the cruiser as it departed after the pepper 13 spray incident, do you remember that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And on September the 6th I think 16 you said you threw rocks and pieces of wood at the police 17 during the confrontation, is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you -- and we know, sir, and you 20 would've observed I take it, that there were other people 21 throwing rocks and sticks, bricks, whatever at the police on 22 different occasions on September 4th, 5th and 6th. Is that 23 correct? 24 There were other people in the Park that -- I 25 mean you told us yesterday about Judas George smashing the
531 window of a police cruiser and there were rocks thrown at 2 various times. Well, we've heard that evidence, sir. 3 The question I put to you is, that -- I would 4 suggest to you that repeated acts against the violence such 5 as -- repeated acts of violence against the police such as 6 throwing sticks or rocks or flares at that them -- 7 A: What about them ramming picnic tables or 8 being drunk or shooting at unarmed people? 9 Q: Well, that goes to the question I propose 10 to put to you, sir, and I would suggest to you that acts of 11 violence directed against the police such as we're been 12 talking about may well result in a response from the police 13 which could cause someone to get seriously hurt, couldn't it? 14 A: I guess you can say that, yeah. 15 Q: Thank you, Mr. George, those are all my 16 questions. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Ms. 22 McAleer is up. 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. Good morning. 25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
541 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 2 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one 3 of the lawyers who's acting for former Premier Mike Harris. 4 I just have a couple of very quick questions for you this 5 morning. 6 You indicated that on September 4th, you 7 entered the Park. You overheard part of a discussion between 8 some of the occupiers and an individual from the Ministry of 9 Natural Resources. Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you indicated that you overheard the 12 occupiers telling the MNR individual that they were taking 13 over the Park. Is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you also overhear the individual from 16 the MNR telling the occupiers that they should not be in the 17 Park? 18 A: Yeah, I might have, yeah. 19 Q: Do you recall what he said? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Now you indicated that a little bit later 22 on on September 4th, you started throwing some strobe lights, 23 is that what they're called? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that those strobe lights had been
551 provided to you by your father? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And during the time that you were 4 throwing those strobe lights at the OPP officers or at any 5 time after that, did any of the occupiers tell you that you 6 should not have thrown those strobe lights at the police? 7 A: No. Nobody told me nothing. 8 Q: And you told us about a couple of 9 incidents where you had thrown rocks at the police. And the 10 first I believe, was following the picnic table incident on 11 September 5th. After -- I take it when you threw the rock at 12 the police that some of the other occupiers saw you do that? 13 A: I didn't throw at the police. I threw it 14 at a police cruiser. 15 Q: I'm sorry. You threw it at the police 16 cruiser. And did any of the other occupiers see you do that? 17 A: Yeah. I guess, yeah. 18 Q: And did any of them tell you that that is 19 something that you should not have done? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You -- sorry? 22 A: Did anybody tell the cops they shouldn't 23 have rammed the picnic tables? 24 Q: You also told us about an incident where 25 you threw a rock at a helicopter. And I believe you also
561 indicated that David George was throwing rocks at the 2 helicopter? 3 A: Yeah, because they were raising up dust, 4 yeah. 5 Q: Did any of the occupiers tell you or tell 6 David George in your presence that you should not have been 7 throwing rocks at the helicopter? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you overhear any discussion in the 10 Park with respect to a possible injunction? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Do you recall hearing any of the 13 Occupiers use the word injunction? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Thank you. Those are all my questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 17 much. I think, Mr. Scullion...? 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 20 Q: Mr. George, Mr. McGilp asked you to draw 21 on the map behind you a circle where the police officers 22 were, or at least the bulk of the police officers were, when 23 the bus came out of the Park. Do you recall those questions? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: At the time that the bus came out of the
571 Park, where was Slippery George? 2 A: I believe -- do you want me to draw a 3 circle? 4 Q: If you could. You've drawn on the map 5 with a circle and inside the circle, a number 12, the area 6 where you recall Slippery George being when the bus came out 7 of the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, how did he get to that point? Do 10 you recall? 11 A: I don't know. He was -- that's where 12 he's been beaten up. He was on the corner of the -- the 13 parking lot here and that's where he -- the cops were beating 14 him up in a corner of the roadway. 15 Q: Okay, thank you, Mr. George. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. Any 17 re-examination, Ms. Vella? 18 19 RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: I'm the last one (1). The -- I just have 21 a -- I just want to clarify your evidence in relation to 22 where you saw Dudley George when you were running back to the 23 Park, just so that we have it clear on the record. 24 As I understand your evidence, the first time 25 you saw Dudley George, you were jogging on the sandy parking
581 lot towards the Park and he was jogging on the sandy parking 2 lot towards the Park behind you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then, was there a -- a brief gap in 5 time and you looked a second time behind you? 6 A: Yeah, well, I just looked forward to see 7 where I was running and then I glanced back at him. 8 Q: Okay, and so there -- and when -- it's 9 when you glanced back at him on -- the second time, that you 10 saw him dropping to his knees or was he already dropped to 11 his knees? 12 A: He was just standing there for, like, a 13 second. That's -- that's when he started falling down, yes. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 16 much, Mr. George. That's it. Thank you for coming and 17 giving us your evidence. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 20 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 23 would be a good time to take a morning break and then call 24 our next witness. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Commissioner.
591 The next witness will be Mr. Kevin Simon, so, if we take -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 3 break now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 5 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 11:04 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:22 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 11 Please be seated. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the next 13 witness is Mr. Kevin Charles Daniel Simon. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 15 Mr. Simon. 16 MR. KEVIN SIMON: Good day. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Simon, I understand from 18 Counsel that you wish to use the Eagle Feather oath. Very 19 good, sir. Please state your name in full, please, for the 20 record. 21 THE WITNESS: My name is Kevin Charles Daniel 22 Simon. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 24 25 KEVIN CHARLES SIMON, Sworn.
601 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Simon. I understand 3 that you were born on December 10th, 1976? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And in 1995, you would have been just -- 6 eighteen (18) just turning nineteen (19), you would have 7 turned nineteen (19) on December 10th, 1995? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And your mother is Marcia Flora Simon? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And your brother is Marlin Simon? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And I understand it that Marlin is three 14 (3) years older than you? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And your maternal grandparents were 17 Daniel and Melva George; is that correct? 18 A: Yeah, that's correct. 19 Q: And your grandfather, Daniel George, was, 20 as we have heard, from Stony Point? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And Mr. Dudley George was your cousin? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And it's my understanding that you grew 25 up at Kettle Point; is that correct?
611 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And in 1993 you were attending school in 3 London, Ontario? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And you were studying to become -- you 6 were taking an apprenticeship in carpentry? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And today you work as a renovator and 9 carpenter? 10 A: Yeah, still. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: Still, yeah. 13 Q: Still today? As a matter of fact you're 14 taking a day off today? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And as I understand it, you have no 17 criminal record? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And, take you back a few years, I 20 understand that when you were thirteen (13), that would 1990, 21 your grandfather, Daniel George, was buried at the Army Camp; 22 is that correct? 23 A: Yes, that's correct. 24 Q: And prior to his death had you spent time 25 with your grandfather, Daniel George?
621 A: Yeah. He'd raised me quite a bit as -- 2 before I had started school, before kindergarten age. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: My mom was still taking school at that 5 time, so my grandpa spent a lot of time basically, 6 babysitting me. 7 Q: And after you went to school, did you 8 spend time with your grandfather and grandmother as well? 9 A: Yeah. They lived next door. 10 Q: And prior to his death, did you speak to 11 your grandfather or did your grandfather speak to you about 12 Stony Point and his life at Stony Point? 13 A: Yes, quite a bit. He used to take me for 14 rides by there, every time I had chance. I liked going for 15 rides. 16 Q: And when you say you went for rides, did 17 you go down to the Army Camp at the Camp Ipperwash and drive 18 inside? 19 A: No. We weren't allowed to go inside the 20 camp. We're usually turned away. He would take me down on 21 the beach area, Matheson Drive and show me where the military 22 police would be stationed on guard or whatever and be turned 23 away basically. 24 Q: So that you would often go with your 25 grandfather down Matheson Drive down to the beach and --
631 A: Well, all the way around. 2 Q: All the way around? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: The whole perimeter of Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And can you tell us some of the things 7 that your grandfather told you about his life at Stony Point? 8 A: Well he was -- he was young when they had 9 taken the land. He would have been just about ready to turn 10 twenty-one (21) I believe. So a lot of stuff he talked about 11 would've been as -- as he was growing up. Talked about times 12 have been tough, I guess, coming out of the depression years. 13 A lot of people were poor. And talked about 14 things they did to survive. Different woodworking things, 15 they would go into the bush and cut cedar posts for farmers, 16 for fences, make handles, axe handles, whatever. Stuff like 17 that. Crafts, do hunting, sell hides. Just about anything 18 to make a living I guess. 19 Q: And did he tell you about -- was he a 20 trapper as well? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And did he trap on the land -- on Stony 23 Point prior to the appropriation? 24 A: Yeah. And other areas too. There was -- 25 at that we used to have three (3) inland lakes going towards
641 Grand Bend. They considered that our hunting areas. Those 2 lakes are drained now due to the Osabo (phonetic) cut. But 3 that's -- he used to talk about going on where he would get a 4 lot of muskrats and stuff. It would take him all day to walk 5 around there. Basically used trap line I guess you call it. 6 Q: And what did your grandfather tell you, 7 if anything, about the appropriation in 1942 of the Stony -- 8 of Stony Point? 9 A: It was something that bugged him for 10 sure. He would see it and it bugged him a lot. He -- they 11 had tried to fight it, they even held a vote, the majority 12 voted no, they didn't want it to be sold or taken. It was 13 set aside for them by a Treaty in recognition of their -- 14 what our ancestors had done for the King of England -- for 15 Canada. 16 When they appropriated or expropriated, 17 whatever you want to call it, took the land, he felt that 18 that was illegal and it was something that should not have 19 been done but they had no -- no course of action to -- to 20 basically fight it. At that time Native people weren't 21 allowed to vote, weren't allowed to gather in groups, they 22 would be arrested. So it was something that hurt him deeply. 23 Q: And the -- did your grandfather tell you 24 where he moved after the appropriation of the land at Stony 25 Point?
651 A: He talked about living in the oil springs 2 Petrolia area I guess, Oil City. Did some work as a 3 lumberjack, different jobs, live wherever I guess. 4 Eventually settled on Kettle Point, I'm not too sure how long 5 after but he had already had a couple of children so it was a 6 few years after '42. 7 Q: And did you visit Stony Point with your 8 grandfather prior to his death? 9 A: He had taken me in there one (1) time, 10 one (1) of the times he was babysitting me before I started 11 school. I didn't realize it at the time but we were inside 12 the camp and cutting wood and snuck past the military police. 13 Other than that I'd never really seen the full perimeter, the 14 inland lakes or the dunes or any of that. The beauty of the 15 land I guess. I'd always seen it from the outside going by 16 on the highway or Outer Drive. 17 Q: All right. And -- 18 A: And the only other time I'd seen my 19 grandfather in there was in 1990. I think it was in August, 20 beginning of September, he stayed in there for a week. Right 21 next to the barracks area there was a camp-in protest -- 22 demonstration. 23 Q: And the demonstration that you're 24 referring to, if I could show you a copy of Exhibit P-41, the 25 -- the camp-in was located near the hospital. Is that
661 correct? 2 A: Yeah, I believe it was called the 3 hospital. It's right in front of that -- that one (1) 4 building, there's a chapel -- there's two (2) churches there. 5 If you just move a little closer to your left, there. Yeah, 6 right in there. It's where they had a sacred fire set up and 7 a few tents. 8 Q: And you're referring to -- is the chapel 9 -- it's Building 46 on P-41. There's a copy -- a hardcopy of 10 P-41 in front of you, Mr. Simon. And the legend at the 11 bottom? And there's a -- the Roman Catholic Chapel is P-46 - 12 - is Building 46 and the Protestant Chapel is 47 and the -- 13 so the area you're pointing out is in -- to the south of the 14 Roman Catholic Chapel, Building 46? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you visit your grandfather at the 17 -- at the -- the camp-in in 1990? 18 A: Actually, he was visiting us. We were 19 the ones camping. He was -- his health was failing at that 20 time. He died not too long after. He died in October of 21 that same year, but he had made the effort to walk. 22 There was a gate further down 21 to the east 23 where everybody would park along the highway and walk in and 24 at that time he was really short of breath. I remember just 25 the effort of walking to that fire was a great deal of effort
671 for him at that time. 2 Q: And the gate -- can you point out -- I've 3 got on the map -- 4 A: Oh, it's still -- it's still basically in 5 the barracks, it's just -- just a little past the barracks 6 Q: So, just past -- 7 A: -- so it wasn't a great deal of walk, but 8 -- 9 Q: So, it was just to the east of the built- 10 up area on P-41? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And were you -- you would have been, I 13 take it, thirteen (13) in the summer of 1990. Were you there 14 with your mother? 15 A: No. My brother was there, my uncles. 16 There was various people; some would come, some would go. 17 Q: So that -- can you -- which of -- just -- 18 how -- can -- which of your uncles were there during -- 19 A: I remember my Uncle Moon, Mark George, he 20 was -- 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: -- he had taken me a couple of times for 23 a ride. We had no running water so when we were camping he'd 24 take a shower, give me a ride down to Kettle Point. 25 I remember Slippery -- Cecil Bernard. He had
681 been there at that time, too. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: I'm not too sure who else there is, just 4 -- I didn't really know a lot of those people either at the 5 time. 6 Q: In 1990 were you living at Kettle Point 7 or some place -- 8 A: Yeah, I was living in Kettle Point. 9 Q: And that demonstration, that -- or the 10 camp-in -- what was the camp-in -- tell about the camp-in? 11 A: Well, at the time there was -- there was 12 a thing going on in Oka, so it was kind of a demonstration in 13 solidarity with those people, so there wouldn't be the 14 violence of them being shot or whatever with the Army the way 15 they were -- they were showing on the news, the way that they 16 were being built up, surrounding those people with the 17 helicopters and barbed wire. 18 So what we done there is show support that 19 there wasn't -- those people weren't alone in their fight and 20 their struggle to reclaim -- reclaim their ancestral lands, 21 their burial grounds and -- because the same thing was 22 happening here at Camp Ipperwash and Stoney Point. 23 Q: And the demonstration that -- in 1990, do 24 you recall was there -- was there -- I know you were a young 25 man then, but were there any confrontations with the Military
691 or the OPP -- Ontario Provincial Police? 2 A: I know there was threats. They had 3 threatened to charge everybody with trespassing and stuff 4 like that, but everything was fairly peaceful. 5 Q: Was it peaceful camp-in? 6 A: The military wasn't harassing us as much 7 as they did in '93. 8 Q: Okay. Speaking of demonstrations, did 9 you participate as a young man in demonstrations at Stony 10 Point? 11 A: Yeah. There was various -- out on the 12 corner of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: And along Army Camp to the main gate 15 going into the barracks area. There had been several 16 demonstrations over the years, basically all of my life. I 17 remember one (1) in particular there was -- that stood out 18 the most. 19 They said it was the first time in the history 20 of Camp Ipperwash that the Lieutenant Governor missed the 21 graduation ceremonies to inspect the cadets. 22 He apparently never showed up for fear of my 23 grandfather and my grandmother and Bernice Jackson, another 24 Elder. They were the only three (3) that had gone out there 25 with their signs stating that they wanted their land back.
701 They wanted justice. 2 Q: And when was that demonstration by your 3 grandfather and grandmother and Ms. Jackson? 4 A: I can't really remember exactly. It was 5 -- it could have been in '90, in the summer. 6 Q: And there were other demonstrations that 7 you participated in with your grandparents and your mother, I 8 understand? 9 A: Yeah. There was a demonstration in '88. 10 My brother and other cousins had been -- they had been 11 working at the base. I don't know if they were working in 12 the kitchens, washing dishes or whatever, various jobs. 13 Towards the end of the season all of these 14 young Natives were fired. Just on short of being the end of 15 the season where they would have had enough time for say 16 unemployment or whatever. 17 It seemed pretty odd at the time to -- just 18 for one (1) person or the other, but when you looked at it 19 there was -- there was like a half a dozen and it was just 20 those people that were fired. 21 So we had a -- I'm pretty -- I'm not too sure, 22 my mom took us there, she may have been one of the organizers 23 of that demonstration, but the -- the idea of that 24 demonstration was to talk about the -- the way our people are 25 treated on their own lands.
711 They're not treated fairly I guess. Fired 2 without reason, without cause. They said that some of them 3 were underage but they never checked the age when they hired 4 them, they were good enough to work all summer. Come time 5 for the lay offs they suddenly decided to check I guess, I 6 don't know. 7 Q: And what was the result of that 8 demonstration? 9 A: Same as most. They ignored us, said the 10 land would be returned when it wasn't no longer needed. 11 Q: And prior to your grandfather's death, 12 did he talk to you about the Provincial Park? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And what did he tell you about the lands 15 in the Provincial Park? 16 A: That was part of our -- our Reserve too 17 also. Well the name of it, Stony Point, the name of our 18 Reserve is Stony Point and it's kind of not too hard to 19 recognize that fact. But he also talked about his -- his 20 grandfather, Mandika (phonetic) that lived in the Park as his 21 homestead. 22 Q: Your grand -- so that would be your great 23 great grandfather? 24 A: Something like that. A few generations 25 back anyway.
721 Q: Yes? 2 A: So when the family took on the George 3 name I believe, so. 4 Q: And what was your great grandfather's 5 name? 6 A: They have him listed as George Mandika. 7 He went by Mandika and then when they I guess I don't know 8 what you call that. 9 Q: Some point it got changed to George? 10 A: Yeah, when they started making listings 11 of naming -- colonialized name I guess. 12 Q: So that your grandfather told you about 13 his grandfather Mr. Mandika, did he tell you anything else 14 about the Provincial Park, that -- 15 A: There was mention of burial sites in 16 there. I was never -- never shown where they were or where 17 they would have been. Because at that time they talked about 18 how the Park was basically bulldozed, flattened out for the 19 creation of the Park. 20 So -- and they talked about the desecration of 21 -- of the land and of what was there. People had gone in 22 there. It was a good place for collecting cedar and the -- 23 the cedars trees grow in abundance in that area and it's a -- 24 it's a medicine our people use in ceremonies for cleansing. 25 So when people are collecting that would be -- they still
731 went to that area even after the Park was created. 2 I remember hearing -- reading in some of the 3 documents that had gone over in past years, there -- letter 4 from one (1) of the Ministry and Natural Resources people was 5 requesting the use of a gun because of all these natives were 6 coming in and out of there with hatchets. They were armed 7 and he wanted to be armed. 8 Q: These were people going into the Park, as 9 you understood it, to cut down cedar? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Can you tell me when the first time that 12 you went into the Army Camp and toured the Army Camp? Was 13 that at the time of your grandfather's funeral? 14 A: Yeah, I had been in there before, like I 15 said, when I was a child, but -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- I didn't really realize where I was, 18 just that we were cutting wood, but after that, the first 19 time I actually got to see the whole perimeter of -- of the 20 base of Aazhoodena, as we call it, was during my -- my 21 grandfather's funeral. 22 It was -- he had the main part of the funeral 23 in Kettle Point and he had the final ride -- the procession 24 went down Highway 21 and into the Camp and went through the 25 base, all the way down and around the Inland Lakes, up around
741 Outer Drive and eventually made it around to the graveyards 2 that are inside the base, right in the middle -- middle 3 section. 4 Q: The graveyard is -- or the, as I 5 understand it, is in the area, I guess, east of -- there's a 6 -- on Exhibit P-40 -- excuse me -- on Exhibit P-40, there's a 7 -- on a road that runs through the centre of the Army Camp, 8 there's a reference to gate, and as I understand it, the Army 9 -- the cemetery's around that area -- to the east of that 10 area? Is that correct? 11 A: Just east of it, yes. 12 Q: Yes. And so that on the day of the 13 burial, the procession went around the perimeter in the 14 inside of the -- of the Army Camp? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And, how did you find out about 17 the move onto the Army Camp in May of 1993? 18 A: I may have seen it on TV, I'm not too 19 sure. My mother had told me about it. I'm not too sure 20 which order it happened, but I heard it from both and that's 21 -- would have been the next day I guess. Got off school and 22 made my way there. It would have been May 7th and -- 23 Q: And so you were, at the time, studying in 24 London? 25 A: Yeah.
751 Q: And that's when you were taking your 2 apprenticeship in carpentry? 3 A: Yeah, I was in grade 11. 4 Q: And -- so, what did you do on May the 5 7th? 6 A: They had had a -- the camp was set up 7 right by where -- they call it Mud Creek, I think, just along 8 Highway 21 close to the ranges. 9 Q: And that would be -- Mud Creek is on the 10 eastern end of the Army Camp? 11 A: Yeah, basically. So, when -- I went in 12 there and just listened to what people were talking about, 13 what they had to say. There was, you know, Maynard and 14 others, Clifford and some other elders had been talking with 15 the -- the military officials. 16 Q: And Maynard -- if I might, the Maynard -- 17 the Maynard you're referring to is -- 18 A: Maynard T. 19 Q: -- Maynard T. George? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And Clifford is Clifford George. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And others. I'm not too sure, I wasn't 25 part of those talks, but that's who I had heard talking at
761 the time. 2 Q: Just tell me what you did. You -- you 3 went in on May the 7th on the eastern end of the Army Camp to 4 the camp that was located by Mud Creek? 5 A: Yeah, that's where I spent my first night 6 in camp. 7 Q: Yes? And was your brother, Marlin Simon, 8 there at this time? 9 A: Yeah, he was there before me. 10 Q: And did you stay with your brother or 11 simply camp? 12 A: I just slept in my truck. 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: You know, a little pickup truck with a 15 topper so I slept in the back of that. 16 Q: Okay. And did you -- how long did you 17 stay when you went in on May the 7th; one (1) night after the 18 first night, what did you do? 19 A: I woke up pretty early the next morning, 20 I know that. It was kind of cold that morning, so I was up 21 before sun -- the sun come up and had -- there was a fire 22 going, went and warmed up and met up with -- there's another 23 individual, can't remember who he was, that was awake, he was 24 the one (1) tending the fire, I guess, and talked to him for 25 a little bit.
771 And my brother was the next one to wake up and 2 we had the bright idea to go for a -- a ride, basically tour 3 the base, or the Reserve. We made it most of the way around 4 before we had a run in with the military police. 5 After that, I'm not too sure, it might have 6 been a weekend or something, I stayed for a couple more days 7 and then went back to school the following Monday or 8 something, I'm not -- 9 Q: So -- 10 A: -- not too sure. 11 Q: -- in that early part of the summer, in 12 May and June of 1993, you had -- you stayed at the Camp on 13 weekends and went back to school? 14 A: Yeah. Well, I had the truck at that time 15 too, so I'd drive back and forth and stay at the Camp. 16 Q: And at some point did you -- in the 17 summer of 1993, did you move into the Camp on a more regular 18 basis? 19 A: Yeah. Well, right from the start I was 20 basically there every day at some -- some of the time or 21 another. As the summer went on they had started -- they had 22 set up a camp further to the west, closer to the barracks, on 23 where -- would be my great-grandparents' homestead. 24 Q: And could you point that out -- use -- 25 there's a laser -- a laser pointer on --
781 A: This one (1) here? 2 Q: -- the desk. Yes. Could you point out 3 on Exhibit P-40 the area that you're referring to? 4 A: Right around that little road there. 5 Right to the west of the rifle ranges. 6 Q: Okay. And perhaps -- there's in front of 7 you a copy of P-40 and I would ask that -- there's a black 8 pen in front of you, Mr. Simon, I wonder if you could mark on 9 the copy of P-40 that's in front of you, the area where your 10 -- you indicated your grandparents' homestead was? 11 A: Just draw a rectangle or something? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I don't think it's black but -- 14 Q: Use the black one, it'll -- think -- I 15 think it'll be easier if there's a -- a regular -- not the 16 marker -- if there's just a marker -- use the red one then, 17 Mr. Simon. 18 And for the purposes of the record, your -- if 19 you put a number 1 on that -- and for the purposes of the 20 record, Commissioner, we'll ask that this map, copy of P-40, 21 be marked the next exhibit. I think it would be P-100. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-100, Your Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-100. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-100: Document 1002409, page 13,
791 Ipperwash Military reserve marked 2 by witness Kevin Simon 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And the area that you're marking the -- 6 where your grandfather's homestead was -- or his parents' 7 homestead, is just to the east of the rifle range on the 8 south side of the -- the south end of the Army Camp, just 9 north of -- of Highway 21. 10 And if you look at the copy of P-100 that's on 11 -- or P-40 that's on the screen, there's a little -- you see 12 the rifle range, to the left of it appears to be a road 13 running north on the west side, and then a road that -- a 14 short road that runs into the rifle range road. And there's 15 a little black box at the bottom between the rifle range road 16 and this -- the shorter road. 17 That little black box is the building that's 18 there today? It's a silver -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- building? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the area that your -- that you've 23 marked number 1 on Exhibit P-100 is just to the west of that 24 road and that building? 25 A: Yes.
801 Q: And, so, you moved into the area. The 2 camp was moved down to the area of your grandfather's 3 parents' land? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you set up camp there? 6 A: Yeah, in a way. I didn't really have a 7 tent or nothing, but I stayed -- my brother had a trailer and 8 I stayed with him at that time. 9 Q: And did -- 10 A: For a while. 11 Q: -- did your -- your uncle was Abraham 12 George? 13 A: Great-uncle, yeah. 14 Q: Great-uncle and did he have a trailer at 15 -- on the Army Camp at that point? 16 A: Yeah, some time during that summer. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I'm not too sure when exactly. 19 Q: Okay. And did you -- how long did you 20 stay with your brother? 21 A: I'm not too sure, maybe a month or so 22 then I moved into that little green shed further north along 23 that rifle range road. 24 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P-40, 25 with the laser, where the green building was?
811 A: There's that road that goes right to the 2 back and it's just a little past -- right in that area 3 somewheres. 4 Q: Okay, could you mark with a number 2 -- 5 put an "X" and the number 2 beside it, the approximate area 6 where the green building was -- where the green building was? 7 And, although it doesn't appear on this copy of P-40, the 8 central part of the Army Camp was covered with trees. Is 9 that not correct? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And the tree line started just north of 12 the road that ran parallel to Highway 21? 13 A: Maybe about a hundred (100) yards or so, 14 yeah. 15 Q: And the green building that you stayed in 16 by the rifle ranges, the -- the trees were -- started just to 17 the west of that? Is that correct? 18 A: To the west and to the south. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: It was back about halfway -- or not quite 21 halfway down the range, but it was past the tree line anyway. 22 Q: Okay. And then, prior to May the 6th, 23 1993, had you participated in any discussions about the 24 occupation of the Army Camp in the summer of 1993? 25 A: Yeah, over the course of our lifetime, my
821 grandparents had always -- always talked about it. There was 2 different meetings. I remember one (1) particular time and I 3 think that was in 1992, we had a -- I think it was called a 4 Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs or something. 5 They had -- I think it was Tom Sidden 6 (phonetic) at that time was the Minister of Indian Affairs 7 was actually in Kettle Point and a group of us went there to 8 give him a document declaring our independence as a separate 9 First Nation and demanding the return of our lands and that 10 justice be -- be done -- 11 Q: But -- 12 A: -- and treaties honoured. 13 Q: But -- I understand that, but I didn't 14 make myself clear in my question -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- but prior to 1990 -- May 6th, 1993, 17 were you involved in the planning for the move into the Army 18 Camp on May the 6th, 1993? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. 21 A: I wasn't personally involved, no. 22 Q: But you had heard talk about the -- about 23 a move -- virtually all your life, people wanted to go back 24 to the Army Camp? 25 A: Yeah.
831 Q: And did you hear any discussion or talk 2 in the summer or in the spring of 1993, specifically about 3 going into the Army Camp in May of 1993? 4 A: No, I never really heard of anybody 5 setting an exact date to moving in there. It was, I'd say on 6 May -- May 7th when I -- when I did go -- physically move in 7 there was the first I'd heard of that -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- that particular demonstration. 10 Q: And can you tell us a little bit about 11 the building that you moved into up on the ranges -- the 12 green building? Can you describe it for us? 13 A: It was just a small shed. Nothing really 14 fancy about it, it was green. 15 Q: How big was it inside? 16 A: Maybe twelve (12) feet by sixteen (16) or 17 something like that. I'm not too sure. 18 Q: Yes? And when you moved in, what was 19 inside of it? 20 A: There was bench all the way around the 21 outside of the building, the outside walls. And there was a 22 small oil furnace in the middle. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And that's about it. 25 Q: That -- that was it?
841 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And the -- did you know what it had been 3 used for? Or what did it look like it had been used for 4 prior to you moving in? 5 A: It had a sign on the door as you went in. 6 It said 'Shelter'. So, I needed some shelter and I guess 7 that's what the army used it for too, is shelter. 8 Q: Okay. And so what if anything did you 9 move into the green building that you moved into? 10 A: Well, I had table and chairs, couple of 11 couches I used for a bed. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Various stuff like that, clothes, alarm 14 clock. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: Alarm clock, stuff -- just -- 17 Q: Personal things? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And at some point did you move in some 20 fridges and stoves or bring fridges and stoves to the area 21 and around the green shed? 22 A: Yeah. I had a -- actually quite a few of 23 them -- the spot that I was working at that time in London 24 was an apartment building, three (3) storey walk-up, they 25 were basically throwing out all the appliances in there and
851 tried a few of them out and they still worked, figured why 2 not? Had a pickup truck, I brought them down. 3 I don't know, there must hae been maybe a half 4 a dozen fridges, half a dozen stoves, give or take, not too 5 sure. I had them, kind of, piled up around outside of the 6 building. 7 Q: And what were you going to do with the 8 fridges and stoves? 9 A: Use them basically. Give them to people 10 that -- we were getting generators brought in and stuff and 11 figured sooner or later people will be able to use them as we 12 occupied more of the Base. 13 Q: So that -- 14 A: Made permanent -- permanent homes. 15 Q: So you brought them down for use by other 16 occupiers as they were able to use them? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And can you tell us approximately 19 how many you had -- fridges and how many stoves? 20 A: I'm not -- never really counted them. 21 But I thought there was maybe about a half a dozen of each. 22 Q: Okay. And at some point in the summer of 23 1993, you had an occasion to -- the military came to the 24 green shed, is that correct? 25 A: Yeah.
861 Q: And can you tell us what happened when 2 the military came to the green shed? 3 A: The morning that they came to -- they 4 said came to evict me was -- it was still dark out, I had 5 just woken up, just getting ready to go to work as usual that 6 morning. 7 Q: And you were working in London? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: I had a black lab, he was staying in that 11 shack with me at the time and I noticed the dog was -- it 12 heard something, it was up and making a commotion, so I got 13 up and I opened the door and didn't really see nothing at 14 first. And after the dog went out there I noticed that he 15 looked one way and took off. So I had a better look and 16 could see that it was the army coming up at that point. 17 They had -- there was those deuce and a halves 18 big -- big army trucks. I don't know if they were 19 2 1/2 half ton or something, they were fairly big with the 20 canvas back on them. 21 Q: So that -- the truck that has a -- on the 22 back there's a -- it's covered with a canvas back. It's a 23 straight truck, it's not a semi, it's -- it's a -- just a big 24 truck? 25 A: Yeah. A big truck. There was I think
871 two (2) of those and a couple of the smaller army jeeps. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And there was a couple of more the range 4 patrol trucks at that time. They're just basically pickup -- 5 normal pickup trucks you'd see cruising the roads, 4 door 6 style. 7 Q: The range patrol trucks were used by the 8 military to patrol the Army Camp? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And so what happened? 11 A: They had come up there with no lights on. 12 As soon as they had seen me, noticed that I was awake, they 13 turned on their lights and the one (1) deuce and a half they 14 backed up to the side of the shed where I had the fridges and 15 stoves. Guys jumped out and started loading those up and the 16 other -- other people, whatever vehicle they came out of, 17 they basically just came in a line at me at the door and I 18 asked what was going on. 19 And they said they were here for their -- to 20 clean out their building. We had a bit of a discussion. I 21 told them my -- my view on the -- on the building. I 22 considered it mine, seeing it was on my -- on my land. 23 They said that they didn't have no question 24 about whose land it was, but they knew it was their building. 25 So, I basically told them to take their building; get it off
881 our land. They said they couldn't do that and then they 2 physically pushed their way in. I didn't have no -- no -- 3 not really anything I could do about that, I was outnumbered 4 and out -- they were a lot bigger than me -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- so I -- I left, went to the camp that 7 was -- they show it on the map there in number 1 and went in 8 my brother's trailer and woke those people up. 9 Q: And did before you tell us what you did 10 with your brother at the -- your brother's trailer, how many 11 members of the military were -- attended at the green 12 building? At your shed. 13 A: I'm not really too sure for -- for sure. 14 Like I said, the range patrol trucks, they had parked out on 15 the actual ranges out on the grass. I never seen them until 16 after I'd -- everybody was leaving, so I don't know if people 17 come out of there or -- but the ones that came into the shack 18 that I did see, like face-to-face there, there's maybe ten 19 (10) -- fifteen (15) of them. 20 Q: Okay. So you went down to your brother, 21 Marlin's trailer? 22 A: Actually, it was right in our camp and I 23 started laying on the horn trying to wake -- wake people up. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: I just started laying my horn. I was
891 driving my truck. 2 Q: Oh, you drove down and you leaned on your 3 -- 4 A: Started blaring the horn and -- 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: -- yelling around, trying to wake people 7 up; let them know what was going on. I went into my 8 brother's trailer, yelled in there and then I left. 9 I didn't know if anybody was going to get up 10 or not and basically went back and by that time they were 11 basically done loading everything up and I blocked -- blocked 12 one (1) jeep off with my truck and then there was -- I don't 13 know, I got in -- into the shack and there was still a little 14 bit of stuff in there, not much. And then I heard a big 15 crash and I looked out and I seen the jeep going into my 16 truck and I -- I got even more angry at that point. 17 I heard the Army yelling to get -- get in the 18 truck and load up, basically yelling at their other men and 19 they started leaving. 20 I think the only thing that was left in that 21 shack was the oil stove, so I grabbed that and told them to 22 take that and threw it through the door after them and they 23 left. And I'd stayed for maybe a couple of minutes or so, 24 got into my truck and I followed them into the barracks. 25 I lost track of one (1) -- I guess they had a
901 deuce -- the one (1) deuce-and-a-half went to -- there's a 2 blue building right on the corner of the barracks, they used 3 to have it as a jail. 4 That's where I'd seen the one (1) -- the one 5 (1) truck and most of the other jeeps and that, so I'd gone 6 up there thinking that my stuff and I guess they had taken my 7 stuff somewheres else in the other -- the other truck because 8 I made my way around and looked in that truck and none of my 9 stuff was in there, it was empty, so -- 10 Q: Okay. And the blue building that you 11 refer to on Exhibit -- you just referred to on Exhibit P-41, 12 a copy of which is in front of you, that's Building number 3 13 and it's labelled as, "The Guardhouse"? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And, so, did you ever obtain the return 16 of your own personal belongings, including the -- the fridges 17 and stoves? 18 A: I maybe got two (2) -- two (2) of the 19 chairs back afterwards -- after we moved into the barracks 20 and the Army had left in '95. We were going through 21 different buildings looking around and I found a couple of 22 the chairs, but most of the stuff was gone; never did receive 23 -- I guess they're still holding it for arson investigation. 24 I don't know. 25 Q: And, what happened after you -- did you
911 return to the green building that evening? 2 A: That evening? 3 Q: Or that day, excuse me? 4 A: That day after, I'd gone up to the 5 guardhouse, it was getting later on the day, like, when they 6 came there I was already basically -- I always just wake up 7 and leave straight for work, so I was already late and I 8 might have gone back there and never -- I basically just left 9 and went -- went to London. 10 Q: Went to London to go to work? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And when did -- when you -- did you 13 return that evening? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And where did you stay that evening? 16 A: I think I stayed in my brother's trailer 17 for the night. 18 Q: And at some point, something happened to 19 the green building? 20 A: Yeah, it burned during the day. 21 Q: During the day when you were away? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And did you ever learn who had burned it 24 down? 25 A: No.
921 Q: But it was burned during the day when you 2 were in London at work? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And so did you -- what did you do? Did 5 you live then -- this was in -- in August, this took place? 6 A: Yeah, I believe so. 7 Q: And what -- where did you move after 8 that? In with your brother? 9 A: Yeah. He -- he had a trailer there. My 10 mother had bought him another trailer not too long after 11 that. Actually I stayed at my brother's trailer for maybe -- 12 maybe up to a month at the most. And then basically got the 13 other trailer off my mother and moved into that one (1). I 14 moved it further back into the bush away from -- from the 15 highway. 16 I stayed there until -- I'd say the wintertime 17 of '93, '94. We received some money through donations for a 18 -- for a shed. They read about what happened to me in the 19 newspaper, I believe it was the CAW had donated some money. 20 So I built a -- I had received some of those funds and built 21 a little shack. 22 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P-40, 23 where you built the shack that you're referring to? 24 A: It'd still be on my grandfather -- or 25 great grandfather's homestead. It was just into the bush.
931 Q: Just into the bush? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Could you mark a number, I think we're up 4 to number 3 on the copy of P-100 in front of you where you 5 built your little shack? 6 A: Just put a square and number 3? 7 Q: Yes, please. And I understand, Mr. 8 Simon, that there were some stories in the newspaper with 9 respect to the incident that you had with the military, is 10 that correct? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And one of those stories is in the book 13 in front of you at Tab 9. It's Inquiry Document Number 14 2001300. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Newspaper article? 19 Q: And there's another story that is at Tab 20 16. It's the Sarnia Observer, August 23, 1993 and is that 21 your picture in this -- 22 A: Yes, it is. 23 Q: -- story? And then there's another copy 24 of Tab 11 at Tab 17 -- I mean Tab 9 at Tab 17 and it's the 25 London Free Press from August 23rd, 1993.
941 A: What tab was that again? 2 Q: Tab 17. And these two (2) stories tell 3 about your altercation -- your encounter with the military 4 police, is that not correct? 5 A: Yeah. The one in the Sarnia Observer, he 6 was the one that interviewed me, that George Mathewson 7 (phonetic)? 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: That was -- I guess that was a few days, 10 maybe up to a week after the shed had burned. And they had - 11 - it was getting closing -- they were closing down that cadet 12 operations they had going on during the summer. The 13 graduation days. We had organized a demonstration for that 14 as well, called Operation Duty at graduation day. 15 Q: And that was -- that demonstration was 16 before the paper -- the publication of the story in the 17 Observer on August the 23rd, 1993? 18 A: Yeah. That -- that demonstration is 19 where that -- the reporter basically followed us back to our 20 camp. During that ceremonies I returned what was -- remained 21 of that shed to the Army. 22 Q: Can you tell us what you did and -- on 23 that day and where you took it? 24 A: In the barracks, the built-up area there, 25 there's a parade square. In the southwest corner -- what
951 building is that? 2 Q: Building 19. 3 A: I think that's 19. 4 Q: The fire hall. 5 A: It's the fire hall. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: It was right in front of there I'd 8 dropped -- I'd -- basically I dropped off the rest of what 9 was -- remained of that shed. And told them that basically 10 that is our land. They said they wanted their building, so 11 that was what was left of it. 12 Q: And were there other -- 13 A: Yeah. At the farther corner my mother 14 and Caroline George -- we call her Cullie -- they were 15 another couple of demonstrators. There was quite a few 16 demonstrators that had gone in and done different things, 17 holding signs up. 18 I remember seeing my mom and Cullie, they were 19 carrying a -- a banner that said "Welcome to Stoney Point 20 First Nation", which drew quite a reaction from some of the 21 Cadets and parents that were filming. 22 The MP's, they were more concerned with taking 23 that -- that sign than they were with me dropping off that 24 building, and tried to take that banner away from my mom and 25 Cullie.
961 Q: And -- and there were -- your mother and 2 Caroline George were near the drill hall, that's building 26 3 as I understand it? 4 A: Yeah. The northeast corner. 5 Q: The northeast corner? 6 A: Yeah. The parade square. 7 Q: And after the publication of the story by 8 Mr. Mathelane -- Mr. Matthewson and the story in the Free -- 9 Free Press -- and before we go, perhaps we could mark those 10 three (3) articles as the -- two (2) articles, Commissioner, 11 as the next exhibit. It would be exhibit 101. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-101, Your Honour. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's the Sarnia 14 Observer and the London Free Press of August 23rd, 1993. And 15 -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 101 and 102. 17 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-101: London Free Press Aug 23/93 20 "Stoney Point Teenager Complains 21 of Assault", and Sarnia Observer, 22 Aug 23/93, "Native Says Military 23 Police Assaulted Him At Camp" 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
971 Q: After August 23rd, 1993, did you receive 2 anything? 3 A: Yeah. After my picture was in the paper 4 I received a letter in the mail. It was addressed to -- to 5 my name, Kevin Simon, and said "Native Activist". And the 6 address on the letter wasn't correct but it somehow made it 7 to my mother's house in Kettle Point. 8 It wasn't a very sympathetic letter for -- by 9 any means. 10 Q: It was a letter that -- and at Tab 13 is 11 a copy of the letter that you received, Mr. Simon? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And it's addressed to Kevin Simon, Native 14 Activist, Care of Kettle Point -- it looks like Bank but -- 15 Ipperwash Army Base, Ipperwash, Ontario; is that correct? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And there's some writing, Received -- R- 18 E-C period, August 26/93; whose handwriting is that? 19 A: That's my mother's handwriting, that -- 20 where it just says, Received August 26. 21 Q: And this letter was received by your 22 mother in Kettle Point? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And this letter is date-stamped August 25 the 23rd, 1993?
981 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And it's a -- the letter itself was 3 handwritten and three (3) pages? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And it was -- I don't intend to read this 6 letter but it was an attack on you and your People? 7 A: Yeah. And our characters. 8 Q: And perhaps we could mark that letter as 9 the next exhibit. It's P...? 10 THE REGISTRAR: 102. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 102. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-102: Letter addressed to Kevin Simon, 14 received on August 26, 1993. 15 16 THE WITNESS: I wasn't the only person that 17 received letters like that either at that time. I remember 18 Clifford George had received one after his picture was in the 19 paper. I'm not too sure of the third one. There was three 20 (3) of them I know that were all around the same time. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And they were similar -- did you see the 24 other letters? 25 A: Yeah. Similar paper and handwriting,
991 everything. 2 Q: But -- and you -- you -- you -- you saw 3 the other two (2) letters that came in? 4 A: I had seen the one (1) but the other one 5 (1) they said was the same, so. 6 Q: Now, after you moved after the occupation 7 of -- at the rifle ranges in 1993, the -- did you participate 8 in a ceremony in June of 1993, with respect to where a tree 9 was planted? 10 A: Yes, I did. We had a tree planting 11 ceremony. We call it the "Tree of Peace". It's a white 12 pine. Underneath that tree, we -- we buried the hatchet and 13 it was symbolic of how we were going to live out our 14 occupation of these lands; that we weren't -- we weren't 15 there to be troublemakers or harm anybody. 16 We were there just to -- to raise awareness of 17 what was happening and through that ceremony, we were able to 18 show our intent to -- to each other and to outsiders that we 19 -- we didn't mean nobody harm. We were there in a peaceful 20 manner. 21 Q: And that tree was planted near a meeting 22 building that was built? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And on Exhibit P-40, can you point out 25 where the meeting hall was built?
1001 A: I'm not really too sure on this map, but 2 I'm pretty sure it'd be right around where that road goes up. 3 Q: And the road you're pointing to is the 4 road that is just to the west of the transition range and 5 there's a little dot at the bottom of that page that's -- you 6 can't see it very well on Exhibit P-40, but perhaps -- does 7 that little dot represent the area where the meeting hall was 8 built? 9 A: Yeah, I believe so. 10 Q: And could you mark that with the next 11 number, it would -- 12 THE REGISTRAR: Number 4. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Number 4. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And I understand it that prior to the 17 meeting hall being built, there was another building -- the 18 Army had a building there? 19 A: Yeah, I believe that's what that dot was. 20 There's still a foundation -- a slab foundation. 21 Q: But there was no building? Simply the 22 foundation? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And the foundation was used in building 25 the meeting hall?
1011 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And, so it was a concrete slab 3 foundation? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And it became the floor of the meeting 6 hall? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is that meeting hall now called the - 9 - we've heard it called the "Argument Hall"? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: One (1) and the same? 12 A: People have called it -- there was a 13 steeple on it; it was a church at one (1) time, it was 14 Council Hall and a lot of arguing went on so we called it the 15 Argument Hall, too. 16 Q: Okay. And in 1993, we've heard that -- 17 from other witnesses -- that -- actually, before I get to 18 there, prior to May of 1993, had you spent -- did you know 19 Dudley George very well? 20 A: Prior to '93? 21 Q: Yes. 22 Q: I -- I knew of him. I was always glad to 23 see him. He was one (1) of those type of people you always 24 remember; he was a joker. I remember when I attended 25 kindergarten in Kettle Point, he was taking an upgrading
1021 course at the same -- same building. 2 I remember he started a snowball fight with 3 the kids; received the worst end of it, but he was that type 4 of person. He was always a joker. He remembered all the 5 kid's names; always knew what they were up to. I -- I never 6 did see too much of him. 7 I remember my grandparents received a letter 8 from him when he was spending time in -- I believe it was 9 Guelph. He was locked up. I always heard stories about him 10 and guys would take him fishing and my brother was one (1) of 11 those ones that got to go fishing with him at that time. I 12 was quite a bit younger so I wasn't -- 13 Q: Yeah, you were quite a bit younger -- 14 A: -- wasn't allowed there. 15 Q: -- even in '93, than -- than Mr. Dudley 16 George. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And did you get to know Mr. George more 19 after May 6th or May 7th, 1993? 20 A: Yeah. After -- when Dudley moved in, we 21 were at the -- our homestead, our camp we had set up and 22 you've got marked as number 1 there. I spent a lot of time 23 with him talking about different stuff. 24 I worked hard to try to help with the fire he 25 had going; took it very seriously about learning of our
1031 traditions and respecting that; that that fire be tended and 2 looked after in a good way. 3 Towards the end of that summer we received a 4 couple of trailers that were donated, house trailers. We had 5 one parked right on that corner more onto the rifle range and 6 that's where Dudley have moved into. It was a lot bigger, 7 provided better shelter so during the winter of '93,'94 I 8 spent a lot of time with him in his trailer. 9 Q: In the trailer that -- and the trailer on 10 Exhibit P-40, is that intersection of the road that runs 11 north from the -- the road parallel to Highway 21 on the west 12 side of the rifle ranges? Just to the east of that -- at the 13 corner, is that where the trailer was? 14 A: Yeah. Right around -- right close, just 15 basically across that road. Right in -- in that area. 16 Q: Perhaps you could mark number 5 on 17 Exhibit P-100 where Mr. Dudley George's trailer was? And I 18 understand that Mr. Dudley George attended the "Tree of 19 Peace" ceremony? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And participated in that ceremony? 22 A: Yeah. Part of the ceremony was everybody 23 was to have a -- have a turn at digging -- dig part of the 24 hole for it I guess. And everybody put a little bit of samaa 25 (phonetic) and tobacco in, had the ceremony and then the
1041 hatchet was buried and a few other things and everybody took 2 a turn and returning some of that dirt after the tree was 3 planted basically. Just to plant it I guess and fill the 4 hole in. 5 Q: And the tree is still there today? 6 A: Yeah. And it's doing a lot better than 7 the rest of those evergreens that were planted along there. 8 It's doing well, it's quite a bit bigger than it was at that 9 time. 10 Q: And did the occupiers plant some other 11 evergreens along the road? 12 A: No. The army had. 13 Q: The army had? 14 A: Yeah, before we'd moved in. 15 Q: And you told us about, you just mentioned 16 the sacred fire. Can you tell us a little bit about the 17 sacred fire; when it was started and what its significance 18 was to you? 19 A: Fire is sacred to the Native people 20 there. It's in a lot of our ceremonies. We offer some 21 samaa, tobacco or other medicines, sage, sweet grass, 22 tobacco. When tending that fire, being a fire-keeper you're 23 expected to be clean, free drugs and booze for at least three 24 (3) days prior so you have a clean mind and clean spirit. 25 When we -- the fire was started basically when
1051 that -- the camp was set up on great grandfather's homestead. 2 It was the basis of -- of the home -- or the campsite there. 3 And first thing basically that went in. It's where a lot of 4 the traditional people went to. 5 It was the first stop when they came to -- to 6 Stony Point and they would go to that fire and that's where 7 we received a lot of knowledge, different people, different 8 documents from over the years, different memories of what had 9 happened, different -- like when people had -- different 10 stuff that had happened over the years when people are making 11 a demonstration I guess to -- 12 Q: And you said that -- that traditional 13 people came to visit and are you referring to people -- Stony 14 Pointers or supporters coming to the -- 15 A: Both. 16 Q: -- coming to the rifle ranges? 17 A: Both. There's Natives and non-natives 18 that come there. I shouldn't say just traditional. There 19 was a lot of people that come there. But what I meant by 20 traditional people, that's where they would -- like this 21 Lorne Jacobs was one. I think -- I believe he was the one 22 (1) that lit the fire. 23 But he spent a lot of time when he'd come 24 there, that's where he would go and he'd give teachings. 25 Different ceremonies and feasts and stuff like that to help.
1061 Q: And were you a firekeeper, Mr. Simon? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And can you tell us some of the other 4 firekeepers? Do you recall? Was your brother Marlin a 5 firekeeper? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: David -- David George, was he? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Any others that you can recall? 10 A: Dudley was one (1). He was -- actually 11 he might have been one of the most dedicated ones. When the 12 walk to Ottawa was taking place, he'd been basically the only 13 one (1) that stayed back. I was in London at the time and I 14 come back and I realized that the base was pretty well 15 abandoned except for Dudley. He was still there tending that 16 fire. So I stayed and helped too. 17 Q: And how long did -- was -- did the sacred 18 fire burn? 19 A: I'm not too sure, I would say maybe up to 20 nine (9) months. 21 Q: And did you participate over that period 22 of time as a firekeeper? 23 A: Yeah. It wasn't, like, full-time. 24 Everybody took turns. 25 Q: And did you participate as well in
1071 learning from Mr. Jacobs and others about your -- the 2 traditions of your people? 3 A: Yeah. A lot of ceremonies help, I guess, 4 deal with anger. A lot of people were angry, they wanted 5 action to be done. They wanted to do more than just occupy 6 the piece of land, I guess, and -- 7 Q: They wanted -- when you say, "action be 8 done to get the return of the --" 9 A: Yeah, they wanted to see -- 10 Q: -- of your -- of Stoney Point? 11 A: -- some recognition from the Government 12 and say that they did something wrong to us instead of being 13 told all these lies. 14 Q: And did you -- did your mother, Marcia 15 Simon, participate in teaching you and the -- I take it -- 16 mostly young people, the traditions of your people? 17 A: Yeah, in a way. She's -- she's a 18 language teacher. She's always been interested -- very 19 committed to learning the language, something that we believe 20 is dying. Our community is -- there's not too many people 21 that actually speak the language, so that would be something 22 that was passed down also at that fire. 23 Q: And were there other teachers? Your 24 Uncle Abraham George? 25 A: Yeah, he would -- the lessons that we
1081 learned there were quite different. Some would be of a 2 ceremonial fashion, other would be a historical fashion or 3 culture, history, language. There's all different types of 4 stuff, so it kind of depended on whoever would be doing the 5 speaking at the time. 6 Q: Okay. And your grandmother, Melva 7 George? Was she -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- a teacher, too? 10 A: Yeah, she took part in the ceremonies 11 there. 12 Q: And was there created, a society -- a 13 Warrior Society -- 14 A: Oh -- 15 Q: -- in the summer of 1993, or a society of 16 young people at -- among the occupiers? 17 A: Yeah. In a way the -- when they started, 18 they were talking to call it Warrior Society, but we had -- 19 it had been mentioned that -- a bunch of people seen in the 20 paper, they talk about Warrior Society, they think of, like, 21 Oka and stuff like that where people are masked and armed and 22 we had had that ceremony where we had buried the hatchet and 23 we were always talking about living in a peaceful manner. 24 Nobody really owned any guns like that anyway, 25 so -- but --
1091 Q: And -- 2 A: -- we were given another name. We had 3 talked about possibly naming it something different instead 4 of Warrior Society so we weren't basically -- the media 5 wouldn't just draw that line that we were the same. So -- 6 Q: And -- 7 A: -- we were given a name by Abraham. He 8 said he would think about for a while or sleep on it as those 9 older guys usually said -- need to sleep on it, I think -- 10 and he come up with a name. He come back, we had another 11 meeting and he -- he gave us the name of the Etwaagnikegig. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: And his definition of a Etwaagnikegig was 14 "nation builders" and it was given to us as young people, 15 that was our duty. We would -- eventually will be building a 16 nation and that's what we were doing there. 17 Q: And the -- as I understand it, it's 18 spelled E-T-W-A-A-G-N-I-K-E-G-I-G. Etwaagnikegig. 19 A: That'd be close, I believe. I don't 20 really know how you'd spell it. 21 Q: But that's close? 22 A: If you can sound it out from what you 23 wrote and it sounds like Etwaagnikegig, then it must be. 24 Q: And can you tell us what you learned were 25 your duties as a member of the group?
1101 A: Duties of being part of the Etwaagnikegig 2 were to basically help one another, help out elders, cutting 3 firewood. If we were lucky hunting, we'd share some of the 4 meat and fishing, so on. 5 And it also included duties of learning the 6 history and the language and the culture that we were being 7 taught at that sacred fire. And to act in the manner of 8 someone that learned and knew of those things, and be proud 9 of who we were, where we were. 10 We weren't trespassers or squatters or 11 everything else that they were calling us in the paper at the 12 time. It was a -- I guess a source of pride and something 13 for future generations to -- to be proud of too. 14 Q: Okay. And -- forgive me for a minute, 15 Commissioner. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Mr. Simon, putting up on the screen a 20 document, it's Inquiry document number 2002504 and it's -- 21 are minutes of a meeting of the -- it's entitled "The 22 Aazhoodena Stoney Point Warrior Society", on Friday, August 23 13th, 1993. 24 And prior to the Inquiry of -- preparing for 25 today, had you seen this document before?
1111 A: No, I didn't. 2 Q: And the -- did -- I -- I note that you 3 were not present at this meeting but that you were suggested 4 as a person who might join the Society? 5 A: Barely, yeah. 6 Q: And looking at the names on -- on Inquiry 7 document 2002504, did these individuals, Dale Plain, Clayton 8 George, Mike George (phonetic), Tenille George, David George, 9 John Wolfe, Marlin Simon, your brother, Mr. Jeff Elijah, 10 Justin Jackson (phonetic) and -- become members of the Etwaa 11 -- 12 A: The Etwaagnikegig, I believe so. 13 Q: And the -- Mr. Stevens, Mr. Ed Stevens, 14 do you know Mr. -- Mr. Ed Stevens? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And was he one of the young people? 17 A: He is -- I'm not too sure, he's a bit 18 older but, yeah, he was -- he was a younger person that lived 19 there. He had a few children. 20 Q: And did he participate in the society 21 that you participated in? 22 A: In a way, yeah. I don't know about this 23 -- where you got this list. I was reading the date there, 24 noticed that that happened just before the helicopter thing 25 being shot.
1121 And I know that during that search of -- after 2 an helicopter had been shot, that the OPP were taking a lot 3 of pictures of documents. I was wondering if maybe that's 4 how this came about. And maybe that's why I've never seen 5 it. I don't know. 6 Q: But you had never seen it before? 7 A: No. 8 Q: But for my purposes, did the -- did 9 Heather Manning (phonetic) and Chad Manning (phonetic) and 10 Charley Cloud (phonetic) become a member of Twag -- the 11 Etwaagnikegig? 12 A: I'm not really too sure how to answer 13 that. My understanding is that you don't become a member, 14 you just are. And it's just a matter of how you -- how you 15 act. If you -- if you're active member or not, you just -- 16 it's what -- basically the name of what we called all the 17 young people are. 18 It isn't really formal, like, this makes out 19 that -- had an initiation and all that kind of stuff. There 20 is no such thing. 21 Q: And did you attend meetings of the Nation 22 Builders Group or did -- were there meetings? 23 A: There was some that were actually called 24 to -- like when we received that name from Hamster, I 25 remember that was something that had gone out a couple of
1131 days before people had been asked to attend. Other than that 2 it was usually just loosely organized, whoever was there, was 3 there. 4 Q: And the meetings with -- did the meetings 5 revolve around different people giving lessons? Either your 6 -- your great uncle Abraham George or your grandmother or 7 your mother or Mr. Jacobs? Is that -- I'm just trying to 8 understand. 9 A: Yeah. There was usually -- that would be 10 part of it. Usually when a meeting was called where 11 everybody was kind of -- like I said earlier, when we 12 received that name there was other things that were happening 13 too, thay'd want everybody to know of. 14 Like, I don't know -- there was certain 15 meetings going on with the army where they'd made an 16 agreement to basically stay out of the barracks area for a 17 while or anything along those lines or -- we'd have a meeting 18 to let everybody know so they didn't get worked up and 19 wondering what was going on, if something was changing. 20 Q: And were these meetings with just young 21 people or with more people than that and -- 22 A: There was -- 23 Q: -- had been camping at the rifle ranges? 24 A: There was more people. It was just 25 basically who was there and at the time there was a lot of
1141 young people who were staying there so. 2 Q: And do you know, was there a separate 3 group known as the Warrior Society from your group, The 4 Nation Builders? 5 A: Made up from Stony Point people? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Not that I know of. 8 Q: Now in the winter of 1993/1994, did you 9 stay at Stony Point? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And you stayed in the hut that you built 12 in the trees? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And I take it you -- you told us earlier 15 that you spent a lot of time in Mr. Dudley George's trailer? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And do you recall, did that trailer in 18 1993, 1994, have electricity? 19 A: No, it didn't. There was hydro that ran 20 by inside the camp. If the military were so inclined, they 21 could have very easily turned the power on, we could have 22 lived a lot more comfortable but they chose not to. 23 Q: The power was out in that -- 24 A: Yeah. They had it purposely shut off 25 so --
1151 Q: -- in that -- 2 A: -- we had no hydro. 3 Q: You knew that it was shut off, you don't 4 know if they purposely shut it off, you just suspect that. 5 A: Well, yeah. 6 Q: And in March of 1994, I understand there 7 was a tribute to -- on Mr. Dudley George's birthday to Mr. 8 Dudley George and to Clifford George, is that correct? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And can you tell me a little bit about 11 that? Were you present? 12 A: I'm sure that you saw -- you remember 13 when my mother was up here on the stand, she had read from 14 the tribute she had written to Dudley. Yeah, I was -- took 15 part and had a good feast. It was a good celebration after - 16 - in the middle of a cold winter, record breaking cold 17 winter. 18 I don't know, it didn't seem that bad when you 19 look back at it and we had a wood stove going all the time 20 and good company, a good place to be, so. 21 Q: Okay. And during the winter of 22 1993/1994, were you working? 23 A: I'm not too sure during that time. I 24 don't think so, no. 25 Q: So you spent more time at the --
1161 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- at -- 3 A: In the camp. 4 Q: -- at the camp? And before we leave 5 1993/1994, were you in the Army Camp at the -- when the 6 alleged helicopter incident took place? 7 A: Yeah. I was staying at the campsite that 8 I had already marked number 1 on here on the homestead of my 9 great grandparents. 10 Q: And were you staying, at that point with 11 your brother Marlin? 12 A: My brother wasn't there at that time. He 13 was incarcerated, so I kind of had the run of his trailer. I 14 remember waking up -- at that time there was -- there was 15 frequent, quite a number, at times -- there was the 16 helicopters would be hovering around. They'd only come out 17 at night time. Basically to harass us, and they say 18 otherwise, so it was for our safety, but why else would they 19 fly tree -- tree level? 20 Q: So, during the summer of 1993, did you 21 observe helicopters or hear helicopters over the -- where the 22 camps were? 23 A: Yes, quite a bit. 24 Q: And how often would they come? 25 A: Just about every night, if not, a couple
1171 of times a night. 2 Q: And what -- 3 A: It was quite a bit, I thought. 4 Q: And what did the helicopters do? 5 A: They usually just hovered. They'd come 6 over top of an encampment and -- where they knew people were 7 and then they'd -- they'd come down lower, knowing that 8 they're making a lot of racket and a lot of wind and then 9 they'd turn on their spotlights, basically make sure that 10 everybody was wide awake by that time, and then they would 11 leave. 12 Q: And did this happen to you when you were 13 in the green building on the rifle ranges? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And how often did it happen to you in -- 16 when you were in the green building at the rifle range? 17 A: I'm not too sure, a couple, few times in 18 that -- in that building. It happened more often to the ones 19 that were out on the -- in the open on the range in the 20 tents. 21 Q: Down by Highway 21? 22 A: Yeah, out in the tents and that. 23 Q: And at what time, typically, did -- do 24 you recall the helicopters would come by? 25 A: Usually late at night; we'd be sleeping,
1181 so the night that the helicopter was allegedly shot, I was -- 2 I was asleep in the trailer. By that time I was -- never 3 really thought too much of it, just kind of put the pillow 4 over my head and went back to sleep when I heard them flying 5 around. 6 When I woke up the next morning there was 7 quite a commotion; the police were at the gate. It was kind 8 of -- once again, I was late for work, rushing out. I got to 9 the gate and was informed that we weren't going to be allowed 10 to leave the -- leave the Camp unless we allowed them to 11 search our vehicle. 12 So I stepped aside and let them search and 13 apparently, I guess, they never found what they were looking 14 for and they let us go. 15 Q: And so you left and went to work that 16 day? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And did you observe when -- when you 19 left, were there members of the Ontario Provincial Police 20 searching the -- the various camps? 21 A: No, they were still out on the roadway 22 there. I was -- the ones that searched my vehicle were 23 Kettle Point police officers. I can't remember who. 24 Q: Okay, and -- and the Ontario Provincial 25 Police, when you left, were outside on Highway 21?
1191 A: Yeah, they were just starting to show up 2 more and more. 3 Q: And, before I leave 1993, at the 4 beginning when you went in, in May -- early May of 1993, did 5 you have to go through a checkpoint either outside or inside 6 the -- the -- the gate to the Army Camp? 7 A: In May of '93? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: For -- the Army, they always had their 10 own checkpoint over at the barracks and we -- we used to use 11 that gate at the eastern end by -- 12 Q: By -- 13 A: -- the stone crusher. 14 Q: And -- I'll just -- 15 A: We ended up making another gate right in 16 front of where Dudley's trailer was and I believe there was 17 another one by Clifford's trailer, as everybody spread out 18 along the ranges and opened their own. 19 There was, like, driveways there, so we just 20 opened those gates up, cut the locks or whatever were on 21 them, and used those as our driveways, but for the first part 22 of the summer, we'd organized ourselves into, basically as a 23 check -- checkpoint to keep an eye on who's coming in -- 24 search -- search vehicles, see what people are up to -- 25 Q: And was that -- the entrance that you --
1201 you referred to, is that the -- on Exhibit P-40, is that the 2 east end near -- the gate was near the -- there's a round -- 3 A: Lake or pond. 4 Q: -- Lake or it's -- I understand it was at 5 one (1) point the quarry? And -- 6 A: Yeah. Some people call it the stone 7 crusher. 8 Q: And the gate was just to the east of 9 that? 10 A: Yeah, right straight up that -- side that 11 roadway and you drive along. There's that creek that's the 12 very first and then we move further down, get by Dudley's 13 trailer there was another gate and then where Cliff and 14 others camp was down -- 15 Q: There was another gate by the road that 16 leads down from what's labelled as "Magazine" on Exhibit P- 17 40? Or in that vicinity? 18 A: Yeah, I believe so. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: I think it might have been a little bit 21 past it, I think that's where they -- that -- where it says, 22 Magazine, that might have been what we call the ammo dump. 23 I'm not too sure. 24 Q: Okay. But in that area there was another 25 -- another gate?
1211 A: Yeah, there was three (3) gates all 2 along. 3 Q: And this checkpoint or this -- this -- at 4 the entrance in 1993, was that organized by Mr. Maynard T. 5 George? 6 A: Those checkpoints? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? 10 A: No, there's -- I'm not too sure. Maynard 11 T. didn't really like the fact that when we moved down to 12 around the homestead there, 'cause we were -- were basically 13 breaking his word to the Army that everybody would stay down 14 at the one (1) end. We kind of refused and wanted to go back 15 there. 16 Q: Mr. Maynard T. George had organized 17 everyone to stay at the east end? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And how long did this checking people 20 coming in last? 21 A: Most of that summer, and while we had 22 people to do it, after, when the wintertime came, a lot of 23 people had cleared out, so it got -- a lot less people. 24 Q: And why were you checking people coming 25 in to the --
1221 A: It was part of -- what we were trying to 2 attempt to do there was to keep -- keep the place, like, we 3 weren't allowing in people with guns or booze or anything 4 like that. 5 We didn't want people getting, I guess, too 6 overly excited, to remember that it was a serious thing to be 7 in there on a Army Base, we were dealing with the Army. 8 Q: And you referred to earlier, the march to 9 Ottawa, and that was in the fall of 1993? 10 A: Yes, I believe so. 11 Q: And I take it from what you told us 12 earlier, you didn't participate in the march to Ottawa? 13 A: No. 14 Q: What was your understanding of the 15 purpose of the march to Ottawa? 16 A: On there, they went to raise -- raise 17 awareness amongst everybody in small towns they marched 18 through, but they had -- they had hoped to talk to some of 19 the Government officials or whatever when they got to Ottawa, 20 which I kind of had the feeling wasn't going to happen, 21 because they'd been to Ottawa before, the people, and know 22 how they -- how they treated our people, so I wasn't too 23 eager to walk there. I didn't think it would be any 24 different than driving. 25 Q: And you had -- you had visited Ottawa
1231 yourself, with others, to speak to Government officials? 2 A: Tried to, other times, been to the 3 archives with people, basically do historical research. I 4 was quite a bit younger at the time, I wasn't the one (1) 5 doing it, but I was just along for a ride. 6 Q: You went with -- with your mother and -- 7 A: And others from Stony Point. 8 Q: Others. And the -- did your -- does your 9 home remain in the Army Camp until July 29th, 1995, in the -- 10 where your hut was? 11 A: Yeah, it was still there, to this day. 12 Q: This day. And did you live on the Army 13 Camp in the summer of 1994 and the winter of '94/95? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And, did you have any interactions 16 with the Ontario Provincial Police during the period of time 17 that you were on the Army Camp, except for the incident with 18 respect to the -- the helicopter? 19 A: There was a few times where different 20 stuff had happened. If -- I don't know, if I happened to 21 cross them, they'd -- from time to time they'd be chasing 22 somebody and they'd come in, on our property. 23 And if we found them we would stop them, and 24 tell them that they were -- they were the ones trespassing, 25 basically, treat them the same way they treated us all these
1241 years. So, they weren't -- weren't too eager to do that too 2 much, so it didn't really happen too much, too often. 3 Q: And the last summer that Army Cadets were 4 in the -- at the Army Camp was 1993; is that correct? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And in the summer of 1994, the Cadets 7 weren't there. Were others using the Army Camp that summer? 8 A: Basically, just the Military Police, I 9 guess they would be, on -- the ones that would be there all 10 year just to maintain, maintain the buildings and perimeter, 11 I guess. 12 Q: Okay. And were you involved in an 13 incident with the -- either the military police or the 14 Ontario Provincial Police in 1994 on Matheson Drive or near 15 Matheson Drive? 16 A: Could you say that again? 17 Q: Were you involved in an incident with the 18 -- either military police or the Ontario Provincial Police in 19 1994 in the area of Matheson Drive? 20 A: Military police on Matheson Drive? I 21 could have. 22 Q: Do you recall anything? 23 A: Don't recall anything right off, like, 24 from what you're saying. 25 Q: Okay.
1251 A: Any specifics or no? 2 Q: Do you recall an incident in 1994, in 3 February of 1994, where you were trying to -- you and others, 4 a group were trying to erect a Stony Point sign on the built- 5 up area of the Army Camp? 6 A: I don't recall that. 7 Q: You don't recall that? 8 A: It could have happened. We did put up 9 signs before but I don't know, I don't remember ever going to 10 put a sign there. 11 Q: Okay. Or at the main entrance to the 12 Army Camp? 13 A: Never. 14 Q: No? Now prior to -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, Mr. 16 Millar. Would this be a good place or pretty soon or -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, we could stop now, 18 sir. I'll keep going -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But are you at a 20 good point? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. I'm at -- this is a 22 good point. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we -- 24 why don't we adjourn for lunch now. It's just five to 2:00 25 (sic). We'll take a usual hour and a quarter?
1261 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. So we'll come back 2 at 2:10, sir? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 2:10 is fine. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Great. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands adjourned 6 until 2:10. 7 8 --- Upon adjourning at 12:55 p.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 2:12 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 12 Inquiry is now resumed. Please be seated. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Mr. Simon, we were -- just before we 16 broke for lunch, we were talking about the period of time 17 prior to July 29th, 1995, and I have a question. During the 18 period of time after May the 6th, 1993, down to July 29th, 19 1995, did you own a firearm? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And when did you first acquire a firearm? 22 A: It was -- 23 Q: Perhaps before you answer that, prior to 24 May the 6th, 1993, did you own a firearm? 25 A: Prior to?
1271 Q: May the 6th, 1993? 2 A: No. 3 Q: When did you first acquire a firearm? 4 A: The first time I fired one? 5 Q: No, acquired one. Did you -- when did 6 you get one? 7 A: Basically I think it was around 2002, I'm 8 not too sure. 9 Q: And what did you obtain? 10 A: It's a .22. 11 Q: And what do you use that for? 12 A: Hunting. 13 Q: And what do you hunt with your .22? 14 A: Just about anything I can get. I can get 15 a couple of deers with it, mostly just smaller stuff, rabbits 16 or whatever. 17 Q: Okay. And during the period of time, May 18 6th 1993 to July 29th, 1995, did you go hunting on the Army 19 Camp? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And when you went hunting, what did you 22 do? Did you borrow a gun, did you use a gun, what did you 23 do? 24 A: Most of the time when we went hunting, we 25 would go in groups, older guys that had more experience knew
1281 -- knew the area better. They'd basically give us a little 2 thing -- a diagram or whatever, draw in the sand, and what we 3 were -- what the plan was, how we were going to hunt. 4 And they'd usually drop us off at one end of 5 the bush or a block of the bush, and tell us to wait for so 6 long, and they'd go around the other side and we'd basically 7 be hounds, and drive -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- drive a deer out and -- out to them. 10 Q: So what -- as a hound, what you -- what I 11 understand you to mean is that you would then make noise so 12 that -- in the bush, so that the animals would run towards 13 the people with the rifles? 14 A: Yeah. We would drive them, the one way. 15 Q: Okay. And, did you -- is that what you 16 did -- did you ever actually use a rifle during this period 17 of time? 18 A: I may have once or twice, I doubt it 19 though. 20 Q: And did you ever go on one (1) of these 21 expeditions with Mr. Dudley George? 22 A: Yeah, a few times. He'd be out there, 23 same job as me, -- 24 Q: And -- 25 A: -- running through the bush and making
1291 lot of noise. 2 Q: So Mr. Dudley George would act as a hound 3 too? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did you ever see Mr. Dudley George 6 hunt with a rifle? 7 A: I'd say once or twice, it was off -- it 8 wasn't even on the Camp, but I had seen where he had borrowed 9 a gun once or twice. 10 And he didn't really borrow it, somebody said, 11 here, it's your turn to -- about time you shot one (1), or 12 something along those lines, give him the use of their gun 13 for -- for the occasion. Once he got a couple deers they got 14 their gun back. 15 Q: And did you -- were you on a hunting 16 expedition where Mr. Dudley George shot a deer or deers? 17 A: Yeah. I'm not too sure when this would 18 have been. We would have been still living on the ranges, it 19 would have been before he went into the barracks. We had 20 shot a couple of deers. 21 We were on our way to -- actually, the plan 22 was, we were going to Toronto to meet with some of the 23 supporters and they had asked for some wild -- wild game meat 24 and we didn't really have any so, on the way we took off late 25 one (1) night and I had an apartment in London, so we did a
1301 little bit of hunting on the way. 2 Spotted a couple and Dudley and my uncle Glenn 3 were the ones that went out and managed to shoot two (2) 4 deers that time and Dudley -- I -- I was told that Dudley had 5 shot them both and we ended up taking them back to my 6 apartment in London and cleaned them up. It's not exactly 7 the best place, the neighbours probably didn't know what to 8 think, but -- 9 Q: Then you -- okay. And, did you -- do you 10 know if -- did you ever see Mr. Dudley George with a -- a 11 rifle or a gun of his own? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you know if he owned a gun? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Now, turning to the occupation of the 16 barracks in -- on July 29th, 1995, did you participate in any 17 meetings in preparation of taking over the barracks? 18 A: Once again, I wouldn't really call them 19 meetings, but I guess in a way, yeah, we discussed taking it 20 over. 21 Q: When you say you discussed taking it 22 over, can you tell us what was the discussion? Was that a 23 general discussion over time or was there specific 24 discussions that -- 25 A: It was over time quite a bit, but just
1311 prior to and earlier referring to testimony of my brother as 2 to using a school bus as a diversion, I seem -- kind of 3 recall that and just vaguely, but it was -- it wasn't no 4 meeting, like, definite set thing, it was just something that 5 had been stated. 6 People thought it was a good idea and it just 7 so happened it actually happened. Nobody really said they 8 were going to. Went up there and -- 9 Q: So, there wasn't a meeting that said, 10 We're going to do this on the afternoon of July 29th, 1995? 11 A: I didn't really think so. 12 Q: No. 13 A: It could have. 14 Q: Not one (1) that you participated in? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you were present, as I understand it, 17 during the -- the takeover of the barracks or that day, you 18 were on the Army Camp? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And tell us what you were doing that day; 21 at or about the time this occurred? 22 A: Just as it was occurring I was with my 23 brother. He come into the barracks from -- from the east, 24 from where the encampment was along the highway and came into 25 the barracks from that end.
1321 Q: Yes? 2 A: And -- 3 Q: And you, I take it, drove along the road 4 on the inside -- the road on the inside of the Army Camp 5 that's parallel to Highway 21? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: Prior to that, we had notice that the 9 Army -- they had been going about setting these things they 10 called "tire slashers", putting them on roads, usually after 11 dark. They'd set them out, kind of like a trap, and there 12 weren't nothing really reflective or any way of seeing them, 13 usually around a bend or something. 14 We had known that they had some of those at 15 the -- that one (1) end of the barracks, so that's where we 16 went. We drove up there and took them and put them in the 17 trunk and -- 18 Q: And where -- and where were these 19 located? At the east end of the barracks by the hospital? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Just east of the hospital. 23 Q: Yes? And how many were there? 24 A: It was enough to stretch across the road 25 and into the ditch on either side.
1331 Q: And so what did you do with those? 2 A: We took them. We put them in the truck 3 or in the trunk of his car and -- 4 Q: And, who's "we"? 5 A: -- we just took them back in the bush and 6 -- 7 Q: Your brother, Marlin, and yourself? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And you put them in the bush? 10 A: Yeah, I think it was down by the dump or 11 something like that; I'm not too sure. 12 Q: And then what did you do? 13 A: Went back to the Camp and by that time 14 people were basically all over the Camp. Some people were 15 saying that they had an agreement with the Army that they 16 were going to be pulling out and other people were saying 17 that the Army was going to stay and we were only going to 18 live in certain buildings. They had a little map kind of 19 similar to what you had earlier of -- pointed out some of the 20 buildings that had no heat and said that that's where we were 21 going to stay. 22 Q: And who was -- who had the maps and were 23 pointing and -- 24 A: The one (1) map I remember in particular, 25 Bert Manning was one (1) that was showing us that. And we
1341 basically told him, No we're not -- not going to settle for 2 that and we've got old people here, a grandmother, and a lot 3 of the Elders needed -- needed somewheres with heat and we're 4 not going to settle for those rundown barracks that they 5 basically already abandoned, so. 6 Q: And you were part of that discussion with 7 Mr. Manning? 8 A: Yeah. It wasn't really a discussion. I 9 guess it's just what we told him and he just kind of went 10 like that and, Do what you're going to do. 11 Q: Okay. And did -- I understand that you 12 personally did not move into the barracks at that time? 13 A: Not right away, no. I'd stay in my shack 14 or on the ranges. That would have been a little more 15 organization, I guess, on how the buildings would be divvied 16 up. There was a lot of arguments over who was going to live 17 where and whatnot. So I just kind of stayed out of that. 18 Q: And eventually you moved into to the 19 built-up area? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And in the fall of 1995? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: After September 6th? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And where did you move into?
1351 A: The sergeant's quarters. 2 Q: That's building 33? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And on exhibit P-41, it's the building at 5 the west end of the row of buildings that runs just north of 6 Highway 21? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Where the hand is there. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: Right where the little hand thing is 12 there. 13 Q: And do you still live in that building? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And have you -- 16 A: Same spot. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: Same spot, yeah. 19 Q: And you've lived there since you moved in 20 in October -- or in the fall of 1995? 21 A: Yeah. Somewheres around that -- I'm not 22 too sure when I actually moved in. 23 Q: And the -- you're familiar with the "OPP 24 Who" car? 25 A: Yeah.
1361 Q: And the -- what was the "OPP Who" car? 2 A: It was an old junker that some supporters 3 had bought from Walpole. They had painted it up and drove it 4 down -- I'm not too sure if they had painted it up before it 5 came down or if they painted it up once they got it down 6 here. But that was kind of a running joke there, teasing the 7 police and -- "OPP Who" it had -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- written on the side. You could tell 10 they -- they took great offence in that. So made it all the 11 more -- I don't know, enjoyable to drive it around, see -- 12 Q: And this car was -- 13 A: -- whatever. 14 Q: -- the car, the "OPP Who" car was not 15 licenced to travel on -- outside the Army Camp? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And was it Robert Isaac who donated that 18 car? 19 A: Oh, he had a hand in it, I'm not too 20 sure. 21 Q: Okay. And did you have a -- did you help 22 fix up the car? 23 A: Yeah, at one (1) point. I believe it was 24 after Dudley had been shot, we were in the Park, taking one 25 (1) of the sirens of the Park store there. The alarm was
1371 going off at one (1) point, I think the power had gone off or 2 something, and we heard it start going. We had a brainstorm 3 and, Hey that's what we need for the "OPP Who" car, got the 4 siren and -- 5 Q: But this was after September 6th? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And did Mr. Dudley George u -- 8 drive the "OPP Who" car? 9 A: Pardon me? 10 Q: Did Dudley -- 11 A: Dudley? 12 Q: -- George drive the OPP car? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: WHO car? And were you aware of an 15 incident that took place in August of 1995, involving Mr. 16 Dudley George and the "OPP Who" car at the end of Matheson 17 Drive? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And can you tell us what you know about 20 that incident? 21 A: Dudley had spotted a couple of young 22 women on a Sunday night I believe, on the one side of 23 Matheson Drive, out on the beach, and he had been talking to 24 them, and they must have been talking back, so he pulled 25 right up, asked if they liked his car and in the process he
1381 got stuck in soft sand. 2 Police were -- at that time they had quite a 3 few police stationed basically right on that same corner -- 4 Q: And the corner that you're referring to, 5 on Exhibit P-40, is a -- where Matheson Drive runs north to 6 and ends at the beach between the Provincial Park and the 7 Army Camp? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And Mr. Dudley George was down on the 10 beach on the -- the Park side of the beach? Or just at the 11 entranceway? 12 A: Just right straight out from Matheson 13 Drive on -- there's -- they had sets of blocks on both sides 14 of the -- where that Matheson Drive would go straight into 15 the Lake. 16 Q: So there was a set of blocks on the -- 17 the Park -- Park side and a set of blocks on the east of the 18 Army Camp side? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And that, I take it, was to prevent cars 21 going on the beach on either side? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Okay. And so Dudley George got stuck at 24 the end of Matheson Drive? 25 A: Yeah. And after the police had noticed
1391 that he was stuck, that's when they started approaching him, 2 and -- 3 Q: And, where were you at this point? 4 A: I was on the beach, somewhere along 5 there, I don't know if I had been driving by and seen, or it 6 might -- may have been further down the beach and was -- 7 somebody had told us, but there was quite a few of us had 8 gone down to the beach to basically help get the car unstuck. 9 And when we got there, we noticed that the 10 police were approaching Dudley. Dudley was out of the car by 11 that time, you could see his arms swinging around, wondering 12 what he was saying, and when we got close we just start 13 listening. 14 He was giving them a good ear full about whose 15 land it was and who should be telling who what to be doing 16 there. I don't know, it seemed pretty comical to me at the 17 time. The police eventually they -- they left Dudley alone 18 and they backed up and -- 19 Q: And were these police officers in 20 uniform? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And did you notice where the police 23 officers went after they stopped talking to Dudley George? 24 A: Oh, they just went back into the Park. 25 Q: To the Park. And during the month of
1401 August 1995, I understand that you were involved in an 2 incident with the Ontario Provincial Police in the Park; is 3 that correct? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And can you tell us what happened? 6 A: Once again, I was on the beach, hot day, 7 summer day, and getting thirsty, and no wheres could I get 8 anything to drink, except for over in the Park. They had a 9 Park store there and we walked over. 10 Q: So you were on the beach in front of the 11 Army Camp? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: And we had walked through the Park and 15 the Park store was on the far side, and we got over there. 16 Well, on the way through we had noticed that there was quite 17 a few cruisers that were circling around and taking -- 18 basically following us. They would go around -- around the 19 block and come back up and stop. 20 So we just carried on. They never made no 21 motion to pull up to us and purposely stayed away. 22 So we got to the store, bought something to 23 drink, sat on the picnic table out in front. Eventually one 24 (1) of those cruisers pulled up and got out of the car. The 25 first thing he says, he starts pointing at me, he goes:
1411 "You, we have a warrant for you." 2 I looked and then he asked me what my name 3 was, after he told me had a warrant, and it didn't really 4 make too much sense to me, so I refused to tell him my name. 5 Then -- 6 Q: And at this point had you been charged 7 with any offences? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. So you refused to tell the police 10 officer your name; then what happened? 11 A: We had a bit of a conversation, he kept 12 saying that he -- I don't know, he was saying that as a 13 offence to mislead police and this and that, and I stuck to 14 my belief that that's -- and I started telling him that this 15 is our Park and he just -- I didn't feel that I should have 16 to be answering questions to anybody as to my sitting there 17 drinking some lemonade, you know, I wasn't doing anything 18 illegal. 19 Q: When you say you told him, this is our 20 Park, what were you referring to? 21 A: Well, it is part of our Reserve, Stony 22 Point First Nation, Aazhoodena. 23 Q: And so what happened then, after you told 24 them you had a right to be there? 25 A: They didn't seem to like that too much.
1421 They both came up and they both grabbed a arm, one (1) arm 2 apiece, and start taking me to their cruiser. I didn't 3 really think too much of that. I said all right, you guys 4 are doing a mistake here, but. 5 I thought they were going to put me in the 6 back of the cruiser once we got to the cruiser and it turned 7 out they wanted to -- they decided to rough me up a bit and 8 one (1) -- they basically slammed my head on the trunk of the 9 car and as they were doing that, the other one (1) was 10 bending my arm up behind my back. 11 I don't know if they were trying to put the 12 cuffs on or what they were doing at that point, but in the 13 process of that, the one (1) officer basically went right 14 over my shoulder and I seen his -- his face hit the trunk, 15 too, in front of mine and was basically let go at that time. 16 They stood up and the one (1) -- one (1) 17 officer fell down, turned and looked at the other one (1) and 18 he was -- I don't know -- he was -- looked surprised, 19 loosened his grip on my arm so I pulled my arm away and I 20 didn't want to fight, so I -- I ran; didn't know what else to 21 do. 22 Q: Okay. And, so you ran -- where did you 23 run? 24 A: I started to run back towards -- towards 25 the military beach.
1431 Q: And what happened? 2 A: I'd made it around the point where the 3 pumphouse and that is in the Park and as I come back up to 4 where the sand starts on the beach, I noticed that the 5 cruisers were basically blocking my path to get back onto the 6 Army Camp side, so they'd gone up into the Park and at that 7 point I realized that there was quite a large number of 8 people had basically formed a semi-circle around me. 9 Q: And were these individuals in uniforms? 10 A: No. There was may -- maybe one (1), but 11 most of them were all just dressed as regular campers, but -- 12 Q: And how many police officers were with 13 you? 14 A: Pardon me? 15 Q: How many police officers were in the 16 semi-circle? 17 A: There was quite a few. I don't' know, 18 ten (10) -- fifteen (10). 19 Q: So -- 20 A: Maybe a little more, I -- really don't 21 know. 22 Q: Okay. And so what happened? 23 A: They got in a circle and I -- I don't 24 know, I ran back and forth. I'd run at one (1) guy, realize 25 that my path was blocked so I'd stop and I'd change
1441 direction. I did that about three (3) times in amongst those 2 people and it seemed like every time I changed direction one 3 (1) of them would slip and fall; change direction, the other 4 guy would slip and fall and then they just kept closing the 5 circle in. Once they got close enough they just pilebagged 6 and I got tackled. 7 Q: And so -- 8 A: I put my hands up first and said, All 9 right. I was out of breath. 10 Q: And so -- 11 A: And I got tackled. 12 Q: -- the -- you were then apprehended by 13 the police officers and what happened then? 14 A: They put me in a car, took me out on Army 15 Camp Road there. It was the main gate to the Park. They 16 went through there and just parked off to the side. The 17 person I was with was Nicholas Cottrelle -- 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: -- and after they had me in the cruiser, 20 I seen them and they had him and I think they took him back 21 to the Army Camp side. They must have let him go or 22 something, I'm not too sure what -- what took place with him. 23 Q: So, you were -- when you were sitting on 24 the Park bench, you were with Nicholas Cottrelle? 25 A: Yeah.
1451 Q: Okay. And -- so you were then put in the 2 cruiser, the cruiser was -- you drove out of the main gate 3 past, I take it, the gatehouse out to Army Camp Road and they 4 parked on the side of the road, the officers? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And how long were you in the cruiser? 7 A: It was quite a while -- a couple of 8 hours, a few hours, at least it seemed. They parked, locked 9 the doors, rolled up the windows and got out, went and talked 10 to other guys and never said a word to me for a long time and 11 eventually they come back and they asked me again what my 12 name was and they didn't believe me so -- 13 Q: So -- 14 A: -- once again I was stuck sitting there. 15 After a while again, they come back. 16 Q: Did you tell the -- when -- when they 17 came and asked you for your name, did you tell them your 18 name? 19 A: Yeah, after they pilebagged on me, then I 20 told them what my name was. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: They told me I was a liar because there 23 was no arrest for a Kevin Simon. 24 Q: So that -- if I could just stop there for 25 a moment. When you were apprehended by the police officers
1461 in the Park, in the semi-circle, they again asked -- the 2 officers asked you for your name? 3 A: Yeah, after they had put me in the 4 cruiser, that's when they had asked again, and -- 5 Q: And you told them your name was Kevin 6 Simon? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And what did the -- was there -- at this 9 point was there one (1) officer, two (2) officers? 10 A: There was two (2) in the cruiser that 11 were doing the talking, but there was other -- other ones, 12 like, I think there was maybe three (3) cruisers that were 13 outside the Park -- 14 Q: Right. 15 A: -- and they were just standing around 16 outside their cars. 17 Q: And so the officers asked you for your 18 name, you told them your name Kevin Simon? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And what did they say? 21 A: They'd gotten out -- the one (1) guy said 22 right away that he didn't think that was right. But they got 23 out and they must have and went and checked on their computer 24 or whatever. Come back and hesaid that I was lying, that the 25 name wasn't right.
1471 They didn't have a warrant or -- yeah, warrant 2 for my arrest. So they kept me there for a while longer and 3 after a while they -- they come back again and told me that 4 they had located a First Nations councillor at Kettle Point 5 that knew who I was and would be able to recognize me. 6 So by that time it was well after dark. And 7 they take me down to Kettle Point and there was a raid going 8 on or something down there. That's where they pulled up, 9 left me in the cruiser again, turned the lights on so 10 everybody could see. And then after the Kettle Point police 11 and the OPP or whatever they were doing down at Kettle Point, 12 once they were done their business, one officer come over and 13 had a quick look and goes yeah, that's Kevin. 14 Then that was it. They kicked me out of the 15 cruiser right there. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: I said, Don't I get a ride home or what? 18 Because by that time it was dark. When they picked me up it 19 was -- it was a hot afternoon and I didn't have no shoes on, 20 shirts, T-shirt. I mean it's quite a ways. 21 Q: And -- pardon me? 22 A: And it was quite a ways away from where 23 they picked me up. 24 Q: And so the officers left you in Kettle 25 Point and how did you get home?
1481 A: I started walking but I didn't make it 2 too far down the road and Cecil -- Slippery -- 3 Q: Cecil Bernard George? 4 A: Yeah. He had come by and stopped to pick 5 me up. He said he was listening to the scanner. 6 Q: Oh. He said he was listening -- and Mr. 7 Cecil Bernard George gave you a ride back to the Army Camp? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And prior to September 4th, 1995, had you 10 had any discussions or with the OPP or the -- about the Park 11 and the reclaiming of the Park? 12 A: Oh yeah. From time to time every chance 13 we got we'd tell them that -- 14 Q: But I -- I want you to tell me what you 15 did. Did you tell the OPP, the Ontario Provincial Police 16 officers that the occupiers were going to reclaim the Park 17 prior to September 4th, 1995? 18 A: Yeah. I told them -- I'm not too -- few 19 times whatever chance I got. And it was going to happen some 20 time. But I never ever knew of a exact date or anything like 21 that. 22 Q: But when you say you told the police 23 officers every chance you got, can you tell us what you mean 24 by that, Mr. Simon? We weren't there, we don't know and so 25 you have to explain it to us.
1491 A: The way that it was set up, when we were 2 living in the military reserve, the camp part, we used to go 3 down to Matheson Drive, that was our access to the beach -- 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: -- that road is usually closed. They'd 6 have a gate where it comes off of Math -- or off of Army Camp 7 Drive, so it was basically for our use at that time. Odd -- 8 odd police cruiser would come down there. They had never 9 really bother us and they tried to come up there and say 10 something about speeding or whatever. But they'd never -- 11 we'd just tell them, well, it's our -- it's our road and 12 drive all we like. 13 But they never -- never really got into trying 14 to arrest any of us. Especially when you're talking about 15 the "OPP WHO?" car, it was -- always seeing them going down 16 there and if we seen the police they'd be taking picture of 17 it wherever we'd be driving and start doing some donuts and - 18 - 19 Q: So this was prior to September 4th -- 20 A: Yep. 21 Q: -- on Matheson Drive down by the -- by 22 the lake? 23 A: Yeah. Or up at the other corner, close 24 to the Army Camp Road, there's a maintenance shed there. 25 We'd seen them there a few times. Usually they'd just only
1501 be on the beach though. They'd pull up on the beach, have 2 their little quick discussion or whatever you want to call it 3 and just tell them, it's our land, it's -- it's coming soon. 4 You guys should deal with it. 5 Q: And you had -- what I take from what 6 you're saying is that, when you were down on the beach, 7 police officers would be down on the beach on occasion and 8 then you would tell the police officers -- you would have a 9 discussion with the police officers and you would tell them 10 that this was your land and you were going to take it back? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Is that -- now, prior to September 4th, 13 1995, other than a general feeling that the Park belonged to 14 -- it was a part of Stoney Point, did -- were there any -- 15 did you attend any meetings or -- where the topic of 16 discussion was the Park? 17 A: Again, I would -- wouldn't say it was 18 any, like a meeting -- any formal minutes being taken or 19 anything like that or, but there was always discussion. 20 Q: There was always discussion among the 21 occupiers at the built-up area -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- and in the ranges that the -- about 24 the Park? 25 A: Yeah.
1511 Q: And what was that discussion? 2 A: Just how it would be -- be nice to have 3 our territory and this is a good part of our territory right 4 there. 5 Q: And when you say, "Right there," you're - 6 - you're referring to the Park. 7 A: To the Park. 8 Q: To the Park? And how did you learn about 9 the occupation of the Park on September 4th, 1995, Mr. Simon? 10 A: I just kind of happened across it, I 11 guess. 12 Q: And when you say you, "Happened across 13 it," can you explain that to me, please? 14 A: Once again, how we got to the beach is, 15 we spent most -- well, we spent a lot of the time on the 16 beach down there, so when you get down to the beach, you'd be 17 driving by the Park and this one (1) particular day I noticed 18 that people were gathering at the west end of the Park. 19 Q: And the west end of the Park -- 20 A: There's that road that comes through the 21 middle of the Park towards -- yeah, that one (1) right there. 22 Q: Okay, perhaps on the map that you've got 23 in front of you, which is P -- 24 A: Forty (40)? 25 Q: One hundred (100), I think.
1521 THE REGISTRAR: One hundred (100). 2 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: For you it's P-100, Mr. Simon, you could 6 mark -- the next number is -- 7 THE REGISTRAR: Number 6. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Six (6). 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Where the -- you came across the group of 12 people at the west end of the Park. 13 A: The same map that I -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- was -- 16 Q: Yes. Yes. On the east side of the Park, 17 I'm sorry. 18 A: And that would be -- what did you say, a 19 6? 20 Q: A 6. Yes, please. And were you going to 21 the Park -- down to the -- down to the beach from the built- 22 up area at that point that day? 23 A: Something like that. I'm not too sure if 24 I'd been on my way down to the beach or I was on my way back 25 from the beach. Either way, I was -- I was coming by there
1531 and noticed -- 2 Q: On Matheson Drive? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. So you noticed the -- the crowd of 5 people. How many people were there at the east end of the 6 Park? 7 A: There was a few, maybe a dozen, maybe two 8 (2) dozen at the most. 9 Q: Okay. And at that point, there's -- on 10 the east side of the Park -- there was a fence that rang -- 11 ran along the boundary? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: From Matheson Drive up to where the -- 14 the beach started at the top of the bluff? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And there was a gate at that point you've 17 marked number 6? 18 A: Yeah. There's that roadway comes out 19 onto Matheson Drive. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: We usually had a cement block and some 22 other barricades there most times, but seeing as it was -- I 23 guess because of it was closing for the season, the Park, 24 that they had removed those barricades or -- for whatever 25 reason, I don't know. They were moved anyway, it was just a
1541 gate. 2 Q: So the gate was there. So that normally, 3 the gate on the east side of the Park had on the Park side, 4 cement blocks in front of the gate? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: So that people couldn't go back and 7 forth? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And on September 4th, when you arrived at 10 the gate, they had been removed? 11 A: Yeah, they weren't there. 12 Q: There was -- 13 A: I don't know when they were taken, but I 14 noticed that they weren't there. 15 Q: So, you stopped and got out of your 16 truck, I take it? Or your vehicle? 17 A: Yeah. I'm not too sure who I was riding 18 -- I might have been riding with my brother again at the 19 time, I'm not too sure. But I'm pretty sure they had already 20 cut the lock on their gate in there but it was just in the 21 process of entering the Park when we got in and seen a few 22 discussions, and seen keys being handed over. 23 Q: Okay. Let's -- let's take this one (1) 24 step at a time. When you say somebody cut the gate, the 25 lock, how do you know that?
1551 A: Well, that's what I was told afterwards. 2 Q: Somebody told you that the -- the -- the 3 gate was -- the lock was cut on the gate? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And did you see anyone with bolt cutters 6 or -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? 9 A: They were looking for any -- 10 Q: And can you tell me who was in the group 11 that was at the gate when you arrived? 12 A: I'm not too sure. No, I can't. 13 Q: And were you there -- you said keys were 14 handed over, were you there when the keys were handed over? 15 A: Yeah. I'd seen a set of keys being 16 handed over. I believe it was Bert Manning that had accepted 17 them. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: I could be wrong though. 20 Q: And did you hear who gave Mr. Manning the 21 keys? Did you recognize the person? 22 A: I didn't know the person personally but 23 I'd taken him to be that Kobayashi. I'd heard his name 24 around in the paper and stuff before as being a head of an 25 MNR for our area, but once again I could be wrong.
1561 Q: Okay. 2 A: Is somebody that was in control anyway, 3 he had keys for the Park. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: Had a uniform. 6 Q: -- whoever this gentleman was, did he 7 have an MNR uniform on? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: A Park uniform? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And did you hear the discussion between 12 the gentleman from the MNR and Mr. Manning or if it was -- 13 A: I heard part of it. They were talking 14 about which -- explaining what keys are for what. There's 15 keys for the maintenance shed, there's keys for the 16 pumphouse. 17 Q: Okay. And -- 18 A: I heard them discussing with the police 19 at the same too, that the police are asking for more time to 20 make sure that they're -- they get all the campers out. And 21 it was agreed upon there. 22 Q: And can you tell us what time of day this 23 was, Mr. Simon? 24 A: I believe it was evening time, mid- 25 afternoon. It was still daylight, still a few hours of
1571 daylight anyway. 2 Q: And the -- how many police officers were 3 at the gate, that -- that you observed? 4 A: I really don't know, could have been 5 maybe half a dozen cruisers, I don't really recall. 6 Q: And after this discussion between the 7 represent -- the MNR person and Mr. Manning, what did you do? 8 A: By that time I -- I remember I was riding 9 with my brother and we had drove around inside the Park there 10 and basically followed the police as they went back and they 11 were doing a sweep, they said they were looking for other 12 campers, to make sure they were all out. 13 And we followed them from a distance and when 14 we seen that's what appeared to be happening, they were 15 telling people to leave. They got on to the beach, there was 16 people on the beach, they told them to leave. And they were 17 way across there's that creek that goes through the Park -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- on that other map of the Park -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- and just got across that bridge, and 22 that's where basically the cops had stopped. By that time -- 23 there was quite a few more cruisers by that time. 24 Q: And on the map -- we have a copy of P-61 25 -- and the creek that you're referring to is the creek that
1581 runs to the west of the pump house and the maintenance 2 building? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: And that bridge right there. 6 Q: And there's a bridge shown on this map, 7 P-61. Now this is not an exact representation of the Park 8 but it's the best one (1) we've got. And where were the 9 cruisers parked in relation to the bridge and the Park store? 10 A: What you got marked there as the Park 11 store there, it wasn't the Park store. That was something 12 else. But it was right around that area. You come across 13 the bridge, coming from -- like, the direction we were coming 14 was from the Army Camp and we worked our way over to that 15 bridge. 16 Once you got across the bridge the police 17 would be taking a left and it was right around there is like 18 a little island, turn around, turn around the registration 19 gatehouse -- 20 Q: The gate house. So the police officers 21 were over in the area by the gatehouse which was really -- 22 across to the west of where it says 'Permit Office', it was 23 just -- 24 A: Yeah, around in that area. 25 Q: -- in that area and there's a -- we've
1591 seen on some of the videos, there's a -- the road splits at 2 that point, and is that where the police officers were? 3 A: Yeah. It was right around in that area. 4 There was like an island around that -- where that building 5 was an island, and you can drive on either side of it. 6 Q: And so how many cruisers were there, Mr. 7 Simon? 8 A: At that time there was at least a dozen I 9 would say. 10 Q: And how many people were with the -- with 11 your group? 12 A: There had been more and more by that 13 time. You couldn't really count them all. There was -- 14 those police had set up basically in a kind of like in a 15 circle all around that one (1) area. And everybody else kind 16 of fanned out throughout the Park so at one (1) time you 17 couldn't really count who was all in there. Everybody would 18 be in different spots. 19 Q: So did you approach the police officers 20 that were parked by the gatehouse? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And can you tell us what happened? 23 A: Myself and other people would approach 24 and ask when they were going to leave and they said as soon 25 as we get orders or whatnot.
1601 Q: Police officers say -- police officer 2 said to you that they would leave when they received orders 3 to do that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: Or something along those lines anyway. 7 Q: Did you recognize any of the police 8 officers that were there? Did you know any of them? 9 A: Don't know any of them but I recognized 10 them as some of the officers that had been patrolling the 11 area before and stuff. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: They had been there for -- I'm not too 14 sure, they had been there for a bit. Because like I said, 15 people were spreading out a little past the area where the 16 Park store actually is, continuing west. 17 They had set up -- or some of our own people 18 had set up a fire in there and basically had picnic tables 19 dragged up there and starting to cook hot dogs and stuff for 20 the kids. 21 Q: And was that on -- we know that the Park 22 store is on an area that to the north of it is a road and the 23 parking lot and there's also a grass -- a grassy area just to 24 the east of the Park store, was the fire built in the parking 25 area or the road area or on the grassy area?
1611 A: It's kind of north of that where the Park 2 store is. There's a -- they have the parking lots and 3 there's the grass in between. 4 Q: Grass strips in between, yes? 5 A: Yeah it was around in that area. 6 Q: It was on the grassy strip? 7 A: Yeah. People were parked all around 8 there. I don't know, stayed there for quite a well anyway. 9 As it got dark, the police were still there. 10 Q: Then what happened? 11 A: More and more people kept asking or 12 telling the police to leave. They were doing their -- taking 13 notes, figure out people's names and I don't know, 14 surveillance I guess you'd call it and writing down what was 15 happening and as more and more people were telling them to 16 leave, and kind of formed a semi-circle around them. 17 Q: So the police officers were still at -- 18 near the gatehouse on the road from the main entrance? 19 A: Yeah. They had the one -- one (1) route 20 and it was back out of the Park through the main entrance. 21 There was different things being said, yelled or whatever. 22 That's when there was an incident with a strobe light or a 23 firecracker. And didn't know at the time but Dave -- Dave 24 George had been charged with that, they called it a flare, I 25 think, yeah flare.
1621 Made it sound like some great big road flare 2 or something like that. And we were kind of wondering, 3 didn't know what they were talking about so -- 4 Q: What was David -- did you observe -- did 5 you observe anyone with -- what is a strobe light? 6 A: Well, it was -- to me I called it a 7 firecracker. But it's a little round thing, it's about the 8 size of the cap on a -- on a pop bottle or water bottle. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: It's something you light, it's got a 11 little wick on it and we threw it and it flashes. It's like 12 a strobe light and -- 13 Q: That's why it's called a strobe light, -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- because it flashes like a strobe 16 light? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And did you see anyone throwing a strobe 19 light at -- at or around -- around where the police officers 20 were? 21 A: Yeah. I had seen, it was Wes. He was 22 kind of standing behind Dave and I couldn't understand why 23 the police had thought it was Dave, and such a tall guy, a 24 shorter guy standing behind him, throwing that firecracker, 25 and it was rolling around there, you could see those guys
1631 were stepping on it. It didn't really seem like a very big 2 deal. 3 Q: And so you observed -- you saw Wesley 4 George throw the -- the strobe light firecracker towards the 5 police officers? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And did you see that -- did it come in 8 contact with the police officer? 9 A: It may have bounced off his chest or 10 something, I don't know. It didn't really seem like it was 11 a -- definitely it wasn't as big a deal as what they made it 12 out during that Court case when Dave was being charged. 13 If I had known what they were talking about, I 14 would have, myself, volunteered to be a witness to that, but 15 by that time I had taken part, watched part of the 16 proceedings, so I wasn't allowed to. 17 Q: Okay. And then after this -- the 18 firecracker was thrown at the police officer, what happened? 19 A: I don't know. The guys were kind of 20 chuckling, they were lighting -- they were throwing them 21 around all over, they were off to the side. It wasn't just 22 at the police, they -- that -- they stood around for a bit 23 more and -- 24 Q: People were -- well, Wesley was throwing 25 -- Wesley George was throwing firecrackers, not just at the
1641 police but other places as well? 2 A: Yeah. Well, yeah, a few of them as he 3 went, and got a fire, light one (1) up and give a little 4 toss, and -- 5 Q: Okay. Okay. Then -- was there an 6 incident involving Roderick George? 7 A: Yeah, he come along not too long after -- 8 after that happened with the strobe light thing. I don't 9 really know how long or anything, but they just -- when they 10 seen him it was pretty quick and it was pretty noticeable. 11 The police all turned their attention to him 12 and you could hear him basically say: "How come you guys 13 aren't gone yet? We told you -- we told yous to leave." 14 And they had said they were leaving, but they 15 were still there, so he had given them a -- a countdown 16 basically, started I think it was, at ten (10) seconds and 17 the cops are kind of chuckling, you could hear them laughing, 18 brushing it off. 19 So, he skipped a couple numbers and got a 20 little quicker. A few of them start getting a little 21 worried. And then he got to the end of his countdown and 22 they were still standing there. 23 And that's when he -- when you hear that 24 window break, he had a little stick he was using for, like a 25 walking stick, gave the back of the window -- the police
1651 cruiser window, gave it a swat and it busted. You could hear 2 the -- hear the glass as it was falling and that. 3 And as soon as that happened, they -- they 4 start moving in, they all ran in different directions, 5 jumping in their cruisers, and they were running over some of 6 those curbs, crashing into each other basically, they were in 7 -- they were in a big hurry after that. 8 Q: And so the police officers left? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And prior to the police officers leaving, 11 did they say anything to you or to the other occupiers who 12 were near the police officers, about the Park, about leaving 13 the Park or any words to that effect? 14 A: No, I never heard nothing about that. 15 Q: And when you were there with the police 16 officers, did you have any club or sticks in your hand? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you observe other people with clubs 19 or sticks in their hands? 20 A: I'd say just Judas at that time. 21 Q: Okay. And can you describe for us what 22 -- Judas is Roderick George? 23 A: Yeah, Roderick George, I should say. 24 Q: And can you describe the club that, or 25 stick that Roderick George had in his hand?
1661 A: It was a thin, thin piece of wood, I'd 2 say maybe -- maybe an inch by half or three-quarters or 3 something, it had a bit of a curve, it looked like it was 4 part of a crutch or something, which I heard afterwards, it 5 was part of a crutch. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: So, I don't know, it was, I guess maybe 8 about waist high in length. 9 Q: Okay. And after the police officers 10 left, what did you do? 11 A: Just continued what I was doing, walking 12 around inspecting the place. Looking around. We'd started 13 some fires at different locations around the Park. We had 14 followed the police out the gate that they had gone out and 15 immediately set up, like, a checkpoint there and there were 16 some picnic tables nearby, we dragged them out and some of 17 the firewood and made a fire there. 18 Q: And that would be at the entrance to the 19 Park on Army Camp Road? The main entrance? 20 A: Yeah, where all of the campers would come 21 in. 22 Q: And so there gates there? Did you close 23 those gates? 24 A: Yeah, I think so, I -- I can't recall. 25 Q: And -- but you put up -- you put picnic
1671 tables there to block it off? 2 A: Yeah, you wouldn't be able to drive 3 through anyway, the fire was in the middle of the road and 4 stuff like that. 5 Q: And did you stay at this fire? 6 A: From time to time. Not any great deal or 7 length of time or anything. 8 Q: And was your mother in the Park that 9 evening? Do you recall? 10 A: I'm not too sure when she was in the 11 Park. I had seen her there once or twice, but it was long 12 ago and I can't really remember. 13 Q: Okay. And did you stay in the Park 14 overnight? 15 A: Not that night, no. 16 Q: Okay. And what was the mood like in the 17 Park -- of the people? 18 A: It was kind of a celebration -- a bit 19 nervous, it seemed kind of odd the way it had taken place, 20 that the -- the police had actually left and given us a -- 21 gave it up to us or -- and we were occupying it and we told 22 them it was our land and that it had basically gone -- 23 Q: And -- 24 A: -- so smoothly, I guess. It was pretty 25 tense there for a bit, but for all in all, it went fairly
1681 smoothly and -- 2 Q: And -- 3 A: People were glad. 4 Q: What was the composition of the group in 5 the Park? Were there men, women and children? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: And Elders. 9 Q: Pardon me? 10 A: And older people, too -- Elders. 11 Q: Elders? And were there young children? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: So, you went back and where did you sleep 14 the night of September 4th? 15 A: May have been at -- somewheres in the 16 barracks there, either my brother's or my cousin's place. 17 I'm not too sure, somewheres. 18 Q: And the next day you went to work? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And you were working that -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Summer of '95 where? 23 A: I was working at the Namarin (phonetic) 24 Friendship Centre in London. 25 Q: In London?
1691 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And, so, when did you return to the Army 3 Camp on September 5th? 4 A: It would have been near dinner time I 5 guess. Evening. After work. 6 Q: After work? You would normally work 7 until five o'clock? 8 A: Something like that -- 4:00 -- 4:00 or 9 5:00. 10 Q: Okay. So that it would be late 11 afternoon/early evening when you got back to the Army Camp? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And did you go to the Park? 14 A: Oh, yeah. 15 Q: And where did you go when you went to the 16 Park? 17 A: Over by the store there. It's where most 18 people were gathering when I'd left so that's basically where 19 I went straight back to. By that time, people had moved some 20 tables out into the parking lot and had a fire going out 21 there and -- 22 Q: When you say, "People had moved some 23 tables out into the parking lot" -- 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: -- the parking lot is -- you're referring
1701 to the sandy roadway that leads from the intersection of East 2 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road north towards the lake? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And immediately behind you is a copy of 5 Exhibit 23 in these proceedings and it's the sandy -- the 6 roadway you're talking about is the -- what we've been 7 referring to as the sandy parking lot on that -- 8 A: It would be up in this area here. 9 Q: And perhaps we could mark this as the 10 next Exhibit. It will be Exhibit -- 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-103. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 103, and -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 103. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-103: Stan Thompson Drawing, September 16 20/95 marked by Witness Mr. Kevin Simon. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And the -- on Exhibit P-103, you're 20 pointing to an area to the west side of the line of trees 21 that run north from the turnstile out in the main part of the 22 sandy parking lot, is that correct? 23 A: A little more north of the turnstile, up 24 a little bit. 25 Q: North of the turnstile but west of the
1711 tree line? 2 A: Yeah right in that area. 3 Q: And when you got there, how many picnic 4 tables were out in the sandy parking lot? 5 A: There was quite a few. They had like 6 part of a circle around the fire that was going. There was a 7 trailer that -- that MNR used to use for carting their tables 8 around, the old beat up tables that are basically rotten 9 ones. Somebody brought that trailer over and it was parked 10 on the inside of the fence and inside the Park. 11 Q: On the inside of the Park? Yes? 12 A: There was quite a few tables out there. 13 I'm not really too sure. 14 Q: They were in a semi-circle facing north 15 towards the lake or facing -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- towards Army Camp Road and East 18 Parkway Drive? 19 A: Facing north to the lake. They had 20 tables and then fire and then the lake. 21 Q: Okay. And how many people were there 22 approximately when you arrived on September 5th? 23 A: I really don't know. I'd say half a 24 dozen, but there was probably more because there was -- there 25 was quite a few kids running around.
1721 Q: Okay. And the -- did anything occur with 2 respect to the picnic tables while you were there? 3 A: Yes, there was. There was the police had 4 come up there. 5 Q: When you say the police had come up 6 there? 7 A: Police and cruisers, OPP cruisers, they'd 8 come off of East Parkway Drive, drove up, I think -- I think 9 there could've been a couple that stayed back on the pavement 10 part, but the one (1) for sure might have been two (2) but I 11 think one (1) for sure, they pulled up, inched his way right 12 up to where the picnic tables were and as soon as he 13 basically got close enough to hit one, you can see him give a 14 shot of gas and push that table and there's people sitting on 15 that table still. 16 And at the same time, as soon as he did that, 17 there's people who were watching because it was such a slow 18 approach, somebody had grabbed the table and had thrown it on 19 -- on top of the hood of his cruiser. And that's basically 20 when he'd backed up and left and the other cruisers had 21 noticed that there was some parked out on the pavement part, 22 they also had left. 23 Q: So that -- the police officer in a 24 cruiser drove into the Park, slowly drove into the Park -- 25 A: The parking lot.
1731 Q: -- the parking lot and inched his way up 2 to one of the tables and then moved a little -- 3 A: As soon as he got -- 4 Q: -- more quickly and hit one of the tables 5 and -- 6 A: As soon as he could touch it, that's when 7 he gave it a shot of gas and you can see the table, it 8 skidded a good couple of feet. 9 Q: So he steps on the gas from what you 10 observed when he made contact with the table? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And the driver was moving very slowly up 13 until the point he made contact? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And could you see what direction the 16 table was being pushed, if any direction? 17 A: I'd say a north, north westerly 18 direction. Towards the lake. 19 Q: Towards the lake? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Was he trying to push it towards the -- 22 towards the Park? The fence along the Park line? 23 A: No, he would have been pushing it 24 directly towards the fire and towards the lake. 25 Q: Okay. And were there people on the --
1741 you said there were people on the picnic table when the 2 police cruiser arrived? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And how many people were there? 5 A: I'm not sure -- 6 Q: On the -- on the picnic table? 7 A: On the table? There was definitely one 8 (1) or two (2). One (1) I'd say. 9 Q: And as the police officer -- the picnic 10 table was picked up and thrown on the hood of the police car? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Did you participate in that? 13 A: I may have. I don't -- don't really 14 recall. I was -- I was standing right next to where that 15 table had come. And I think it was the table I had been 16 sitting on that was thrown on him but I don't really recall. 17 Q: Do you recall who threw the table onto 18 the police car? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And the police car left? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And was there any exchange with the -- 23 the officers -- either -- was there more than one (1) officer 24 in the cruiser? 25 A: I'm not too sure. I never really looked
1751 that hard. There was -- when they were pulling up, like I 2 said they were coming so slow -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- it was like we were ignoring them. We 5 kept our back -- well, we had our back to them as they were 6 coming up and it seemed like they were coming up so slowly we 7 just kind of ignored them, so we never really -- never really 8 looked to see if there was more than one (1) inside. 9 Q: And did the police officer say anything 10 to you? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And as they were leaving, did -- did 13 anyone throw rocks or sticks at the police officers? Do you 14 recall? 15 A: Not at that point, no. 16 Q: So, "Not at that point," leads me to -- 17 was there another point that evening when there was a -- the 18 police officers were back in the sandy parking lot? 19 A: Yeah. Later on, after dark that night, 20 they'd come up there with -- I guess they were riot squad, 21 kind of management unit or whatever -- the guys with the 22 shields and the clubs. 23 Q: On September 5th? 24 A: Yeah. The day before Dudley had been 25 shot they had come up there and marched in the same fashion
1761 and they came into the parking lot, beat their clubs a bit, 2 spread out. 3 And then the one (1) person that was -- that 4 was doing a lot of the talking, he'd been saying some stuff 5 about, Welcome to Canada and all this sort of stuff, but when 6 he spotted Dudley, he'd recognized Dudley and pointed 7 directly at him and said, Hey, Dudley, you're going to be 8 first. Pointed at him. 9 At that point, my brother -- I was standing 10 next to my brother, Marlin, he had a -- must have had a 11 handful of sand and we had been spread out along that fence 12 in the Park. 13 Q: You're referring to P-103? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: The fence along -- 16 A: My brother was right there at that 17 turnstile there -- 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: -- and that guy that was doing the 20 talking was on the opposite side facing him and my brother 21 threw that sand in that guy's face after he had said that 22 about Dudley. 23 Upon -- as soon as that happened, the two (2) 24 guys on either side of -- the two (2) officers on either side 25 of him had pulled out their pepper spray and you could see a
1771 big mist of that, but didn't really have any effect. It was 2 -- it was kind of windy down there and the wind caught it and 3 you could see it going down the fence line. 4 Q: Now when you say that the police officers 5 that came into the sandy parking lot -- you say they were 6 dressed in uniforms -- crowd management unit uniforms, can 7 you describe those uniforms to us, Mr. Simon? 8 A: They weren't exactly the same as what 9 they had the night -- on the night of the 6th. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: They were -- they were similar in that 12 they had the shields and the -- the batons, but I think they 13 might have been -- even had a different colour, maybe a grey 14 suit. I'm not too sure. It was -- they were definite 15 uniforms -- police uniform. 16 Q: Now, I take it they didn't have helmets 17 with shields on the front of the helmet? 18 A: Yeah. That would have been different, 19 too. 20 Q: They -- they didn't have that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And did they -- so, how many police 23 officers came into the sandy parking lot and came up to the 24 fence, Mr. Simon? 25 A: Quite a few, maybe twenty (20) or thirty
1781 (30). Probably about thirty (30). There was enough to form 2 a line all along the fence line. 3 Q: And how -- the -- the -- the line ran 4 from -- along the fence line from where to where? 5 A: Let's see here. It was basically right 6 from -- I guess, basically, all along where these trees are 7 here, from either -- just this side of that turnstile and a 8 little further up. 9 Q: So, you're pointing from the -- 10 A: -- and north -- 11 Q: -- south of -- south -- on the southern 12 part of the -- between the turnstile and the -- and the gate 13 that's there at the Park? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: North towards the upper part of Exhibit 16 103? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And there's a space on Exhibit 103 where 19 the trees stop and the fence stops and then it starts again 20 farther north. Was there a space, do you recall, on 21 September 5th in the fence or was the fence down along the -- 22 A: This space up here? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: There's a fence there. It might have -- 25 it might have been beat up a bit or pushed down from --
1791 Q: Pushed down? 2 A: -- people walking over it or something. 3 I'm not too sure. 4 Q: So that the police officers come up to 5 the fence. I take it, then, that all of the people that were 6 in the sandy parking lot moved out of the sandy parking lot 7 back behind the -- the fence into the Park? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And at this point when the police 10 officers arrived, can you tell us what time it was, or in 11 relation to how -- when it got dark? Was it dark by this 12 time? 13 A: Yeah, it was dark. 14 Q: And was it light when the police officers 15 came up with -- on the picnic table incident? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: It was light then? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And the -- how many -- when the police 20 officers arrived, how many people were in the sandy parking 21 lot? 22 A: When they arrived at night there? 23 Q: Yes, on September 5th. 24 A: I'm not too sure if there was even -- 25 might have been just a couple people out there, I'm not too
1801 sure. 2 Q: Were you still out there then or did you 3 go back into the Park after the picnic table incident with 4 the cruiser? 5 A: Yeah, I would have been inside the Park, 6 I'm pretty sure. 7 Q: Did most people go back in the Park after 8 the cruiser incident? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And when the police officers, after the 11 pepper spray was sprayed, your brother threw sand in the 12 police officers' face. The two (2) officers used the pepper 13 spray. What then happened? 14 A: They started to -- basically left the 15 area. They went back out to the road. They had a few 16 cruisers there. I think they had a -- I think some suburban- 17 type vehicle that they were -- one of those guys were getting 18 into, different -- different vehicles. 19 Q: So they came down in vehicles and got 20 back in the vehicles and left? 21 A: They must have come down, I never seen 22 how they actually arrived, but I had seen them leaving. 23 Q: And other than the pepper spray incident, 24 did the police officers -- and what you've just told us about 25 what was said to Mr. Dudley George, did the police officers
1811 say anything else? 2 A: There was a lot of racial comments, and 3 they were calling -- basically calling us names and -- 4 Q: And were you calling them names? 5 A: Oh yeah, after the -- what they were 6 saying to Dudley, for sure. 7 Q: And did you throw rocks at them? 8 A: No, I didn't ever throw no rocks myself, 9 but other -- 10 Q: But did you -- 11 A: -- I had seen some other people. 12 Q: Did other people throw rocks at them? 13 A: Yeah, as they were leaving, at their 14 cruiser, cruisers, as they were leaving. 15 Q: And were -- the people on the inside of 16 Park when the police officers came up, were they -- did you 17 have clubs or sticks that people were holding, did you see? 18 A: I didn't see any clubs. Some -- a couple 19 of people might of had clubs at that point, but not -- not 20 too many, if there was. 21 Q: You -- did you have one? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And let me ask you: Why were the picnic 24 tables in the sandy parking lot? 25 A: Again, I wasn't there when they were
1821 taken out there, but my understanding was that they had been 2 planning on blocking that off, to keep people from going on 3 to the beach. We had been through a lot of problems with 4 people coming on to the property in behind us along the beach 5 area, I think, especially when -- before we had taken over 6 the Park. 7 With the Military Base a lot of people would 8 come on to the beach, even with the police on guard there, 9 the police wouldn't stop any of those people, they would 10 allow them to come in and -- 11 Q: Onto the Army Camp beach? 12 A: Yeah. And create a lot of problems, and 13 usually there was -- 14 Q: When you say create a lot of problems 15 what did you -- what do you mean by that? 16 A: Oh, stuff would be on -- people's cars 17 would be vandalized, trailers, tents, people would be jumped, 18 there was different people that were attacked along the beach 19 in different areas. 20 So when we had gone into that Park, we had 21 talked about closing that off completely so that people 22 wouldn't be able to continue doing that, what they had been 23 doing to us and we didn't really feel that it was that big of 24 a deal because it was -- it was part of our land too we felt. 25 And it was -- it was just access to the Park,
1831 basically, and the beach on the Park. 2 Q: And when did the Park normally close in 3 your -- 4 A: Labour Day. 5 Q: Labour Day. That was the normal closing 6 of the Park? 7 A: Yeah. When we moved in, that was when 8 they were closing. 9 Q: And the -- after the police left, what 10 did you do on the evening of September 5th? 11 A: I hadn't been down there for quite a 12 while I guess, same thing, check -- go around, visit whoever 13 was around, to the different fire locations, checkpoints, 14 whatever you want to call them. 15 Q: And on the evening of September 5th was 16 there a fire still -- or a checkpoint at the entrance to the 17 -- the main entrance to the Park on Army Camp Road? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And did you observe dumpsters by that 20 gate on September 5th, when you were there in the evening? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: And I take it that the -- was there a 23 fire there that evening of September 5th at -- 24 A: I'm pretty sure there was. There was -- 25 there was quite a few fires at different locations.
1841 Q: And -- 2 A: Probably smaller than the one (1) at the 3 Park store but -- 4 Q: And these fires at different locations, 5 were different groups of people simply building fires or did 6 they have some purpose? 7 A: If they were running a checkpoint, would 8 be people and -- 9 Q: Okay. So -- 10 A: -- provide some light and a bit of heat 11 for whoever was keeping an eye on at that location. 12 Q: Can you tell us where -- we've heard 13 about the checkpoint at the entrance to the Park on Army Camp 14 Road. Can you tell you where there were other checkpoints? 15 Was there one (1) up on Matheson Drive, where it meets Army 16 Camp Road? 17 A: I'm not too sure if there was one (1) 18 there or not. There very well could have been but I -- I 19 know there was one but I can't remember if it was before or 20 after the 6th. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And -- but I know when I first went in 23 there, there was the one (1) at the Park store, there was the 24 one at the main gate coming in, where the campers would come 25 into the Park.
1851 Q: Yes. 2 A: And then there was another one (1) along 3 the beach, up on top of the dunes, in that area. 4 Q: And on the west or the east side of the 5 Park? 6 A: It'd be west of that creek, at the north 7 end, just before it goes in the -- the beach area there's a 8 high dune. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And that would be, like, there's a good - 11 - the view of the area around there, and so it was -- that's 12 where -- they'd set up a fire there too. 13 Q: So -- so it was on the west side of the - 14 - the creek, on the dune overlooking the beach. Now was it 15 closer to the creek or closer to the western boundary of the 16 Park? 17 A: I thought it was a little closer to that 18 creek but -- 19 Q: Okay. And were there any others? Were 20 there any on the east end? 21 A: Not that I recall. 22 Q: Okay. And so after you did that on the 23 evening of September 5th, what did you do? Did you sleep in 24 the Park that night? 25 A: I'm not too sure. Could have slept in my
1861 -- back in my shack, up front, or I could have stayed in the 2 barracks. 3 Q: You can't remember what you did? 4 A: I can't remember. I know I was there 5 pretty late. It -- it had disturbed me what they had said to 6 Dudley, and knowing that they had pointed that out before 7 when we were living on the ranges, he was subject to a lot of 8 harassment from the police driving by with their spotlights 9 and sirens and whatnot. 10 And the Army MP's, I know that they'd always 11 recognize him, called him by name. So when these police had 12 marched up the way they did, banging their clubs and pointing 13 -- pointing him out specifically amongst all of these other 14 people, in the dark, it worried me. 15 And, I don't know, I was up for quite a while 16 and the next day I -- I knew that it wasn't right, so I 17 stayed -- stayed. I never went to work that day, on the 6th. 18 Q: Okay. And let me stop you for a moment 19 before we start on the 6th. The -- you said that police 20 officers would -- had harassed Mr. Dudley George when he was 21 on the ranges. What did you mean by that? 22 A: Where his trailer had been -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- he had that big trailer up along 25 Highway 21, we marked number 5 on this map.
1871 Q: And the map you're referring to is P-100 2 I believe? 3 A: Mine says P-40. 4 Q: Yeah but it's -- we've got a different 5 number for it now. 6 A: He had put a -- I guess part of it was he 7 had put a name -- name tag thing on his trailer. So that 8 might have been part of the reason why so many of them would 9 know his name. 10 Q: What did he put on his trailer? 11 A: Just "Dudley's Place", just so people 12 knew where he lived. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: That -- 15 Q: So when you say the police harassed him, 16 what did you mean by that? 17 A: When he was staying in that trailer, a 18 lot of the times during the night the police would drive by 19 in the middle of the night -- they wouldn't be chasing nobody 20 - they'd stop, slow down out there, turn on their sirens, 21 turn on their spotlight. They'd shine -- shine a light in 22 his trailer. Just -- just nuisance stuff like that. 23 Q: How do you know that, Mr. Simon? 24 A: Pardon me? 25 Q: How do you know that?
1881 A: How do I know that? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: I was a witness, I was in that trailer 4 many times when -- when it took place. 5 Q: You were sleeping overnight in the 6 trailer when this happened? 7 A: It'd be happening whether -- be up in the 8 middle of the night sometimes or be out hunting or whatever. 9 He'd come back, just sitting around other times. I don't 10 know. Winter time it would be dark earlier, so a lot quieter 11 and you notice things like that. 12 Q: Okay. And that's -- what you're 13 referring to is that from time to time, a police officer 14 would shine a spotlight or turn on a siren? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Perhaps that would be a good place for 17 the afternoon break, I see it's 3:30 almost. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 19 minute break. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 21 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 22 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 3:30 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 3:46 p.m.
1891 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 2 Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Mr. Simon, you were telling us about the 6 police, the -- the OPP, and Mr. Dudley George, and 7 interacting when he was on the rifle ranges in his trailer. 8 And is it fair to say that Mr. George would tease the police 9 from time to time if he had the opportunity to? 10 A: Yeah. And he was a joker, a jokester of 11 sorts. At the same time he'd be serious in his jokes, but it 12 seemed funny when he'd be telling them basically to leave, or 13 something along those lines. 14 Q: So that he -- he would exchange -- tease 15 the police as well as sometimes the police would say things 16 to him? 17 A: Yeah, police, as well as the Military 18 Police too. 19 Q: And in -- on September 4th, did you see 20 any guns in the Park in the hands of occupiers? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And on September 5th, did you see any 23 guns in the Park in the hands of occupiers? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And on September 4th, did you hear any
1901 gunfire during the night of September 4th, the evening of 2 September the 4th, the morning of September 5th? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And on the evening of September 5th and 5 the morning of September 6th, did you hear any gunfire? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And other than what you've told us with 8 respect to the strobe light firecrackers on September 4th, 9 did you see or observe or hear firecrackers in the Park on 10 September 4th or September 5th? Did people have 11 firecrackers? 12 A: Yeah, there was -- like when -- when I 13 said that Wes was throwing some of those strobe light things 14 around, at the same time he had some of those other just the 15 little firecrackers, just small thinks that make a boom and I 16 don't know. Weren't nothing fancy about them but he was 17 throwing those too. Lighting them off when the police were 18 still there. 19 So they had seen it and if that's what they 20 thought was gunfire they should have known better. Because 21 they could obviously see. But other than that I never heard. 22 Q: Where firecrackers were being lit, did 23 you hear firecrackers -- you weren't during the day on 24 September 5th? 25 A: No.
1911 Q: But when you were there on September 5th, 2 did you hear any firecrackers? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And after July 29th, 1995 in the built-up 5 area, the Ontario Provincial Police did not try to remove you 6 from the built-up area, is that correct? 7 A: From the barracks? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: No. 10 Q: And the Ontario Provincial Police did not 11 try to remove the occupiers who were camped out in the rifle 12 ranges after May 7th -- 6th, 1993 did they? 13 A: No. They did have basically made threats 14 of doing it. But other than that they never -- made no 15 physical attempt. 16 Q: Did the -- did that come from the 17 military police or from -- did you -- 18 A: From both as far as I know. 19 Q: Did you hear of an Ontario Provincial 20 Police officer threat to evict people from the rifle ranges? 21 You personally? 22 A: No personally, no. 23 Q: And on September 5th did you observe any 24 Ontario Provincial Police officers in the Park? 25 A: On which day?
1921 Q: September 5th, day 2. 2 A: September 5th, no. 3 Q: The Ontario Provincial Police officers 4 stayed outside the Park? Is that fair to say? 5 A: Yeah. As far as I know, yeah. 6 Q: And on September 6th, you said that you 7 stayed -- you didn't go to work? 8 A: Yep. 9 Q: And why didn't you go to work? 10 A: I had an uneasy feeling from what 11 happened on the night of the 5th after hearing Dudley being 12 threatened. I made the decision that night I'd be staying 13 there to witness if they come back to come good on what they 14 had threatened. 15 Q: And when the threat was one (1) police 16 officer saying to Mr. Dudley George that he'll be the first? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And what did you do during the day of 19 September 6th? Go back and forth to the -- between the Park 20 and the Army Camp -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- built-up area? 23 A: Yeah. Back and forth, down on the beach, 24 just travel around quite a bit. 25 Q: And were you in the Park when there were
1931 helicopters around on September 6th? 2 A: Once or twice. I's seen them once. I 3 heard about them. Witnessed them leaving the area but I had 4 heard that they were a lot closer, they were hovering right 5 in the parking lots. 6 Q: But when you were there, was it one (1) 7 helicopter or more than one (1) helicopter? 8 A: I only seen the one. It was big bright 9 yellow. 10 Q: And -- but when -- you did not observe 11 the helicopter in the Park hovering low above the people? 12 A: No. The one I had seen, I was coming 13 from the barracks towards the Park along Army Camp Road on 14 the inside of the camp -- 15 Q: On the road that runs parallel to Army 16 Camp Road? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Proceeding north? 19 A: I was coming around that bend as you get 20 closer -- 21 Q: And the bend you're referring to is the 22 bend at the end of the -- 23 A: At the end of -- right as that road comes 24 to an end along Army Camp and it turns at Matheson Drive -- 25 Q: Yes?
1941 A: -- and it runs on Matheson Drive I was 2 coming around that corner to the north on the north side of 3 Matheson Drive there's a maintenance shed inside the Park. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: And people had been inside there and I'd 6 seen that helicopter leaving that area and it was quite low 7 but it was in the process of leaving. 8 Q: And that was the yellow helicopter? 9 A: Yep. 10 Q: Can you tell us what time it was on 11 September 6th. 12 A: I don't know. It was daytime. 13 Q: Okay. And the -- did you witness an 14 incident involving Stewart George and Gerald George in the 15 afternoon, late afternoon of September 6th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And were you in the Park when Bonnie 18 Bressette came to the Park on -- Provincial Park -- on 19 September 6th? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And what was Bonnie Bressette doing when 22 she came to the Park? What was happening? 23 A: She was basically worried; you could 24 tell. She was -- wasn't acting in a -- in a relaxed manner, 25 anyway. She was obviously worried about something. She was
1951 talking about the police and her build -- being built up 2 further between the Park and Kettle Point and saying that the 3 roads are being blocked. 4 They weren't allowing anybody through, but 5 they had allowed her to go through. There was a couple of 6 other people, like Bernard, he had -- he'd come through 7 there, but he said he -- 8 Q: Was this -- 9 A: -- wasn't allowed, I guess. 10 Q: Did Bonnie Bressette -- the conversation 11 -- I'm trying to just place the time. Did Bonnie Bressette 12 come before Cecil Bernard George or after Cecil Bernard 13 George? 14 A: I'm not too sure, they both had been 15 there back and forth a few times. I'm not too sure. 16 Q: Okay. And can you recall what Bonnie 17 Bressette said about the police buildup? Did you hear her 18 say this? 19 A: Yeah, I'd her. At one (1) point she was, 20 basically, along the lines telling us that we should -- 21 should be leaving or preparing for -- for the worst. The 22 police are -- they were are building up a lot more numbers 23 down the road and their intentions aren't good towards us and 24 -- 25 Q: Well --
1961 A: -- but other than that, I never really 2 paid too much attention to what she was saying. 3 Q: Okay, but when she said, The police were 4 building up down the road, did she say which road? 5 A: Down East Parkway Drive. 6 Q: And when she said -- did she use those 7 words, "Their intentions aren't that good towards us?" 8 A: Somewhere along those lines. She said 9 they -- they didn't -- they didn't -- I'm not too sure her 10 exact words, but it was along the lines of that they were 11 coming to either arrest everybody, or club everybody or she 12 didn't know what, but she knew it wasn't -- it wasn't going 13 to be good. 14 Q: Okay. And you mentioned Cecil Bernard 15 George? When did you first see Cecil Bernard George on 16 September 6th, 1995? 17 A: It was evening, closing in on dark. The 18 first time he come up he was talking about how they were -- 19 he was talking about the police buildup further down the 20 road. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: He was saying that they weren't allowing 23 him through, but he had droven around on the beach or 24 something like that. I'm not too sure how he'd gotten there 25 --
1971 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- but he pulled up in the -- the sand 3 parking lot outside of the Park at the end of Army Camp Road 4 and East Parkway Drive and he come up there and basically 5 said the same thing that Bonnie was saying and asked if there 6 was anything we needed; some help or whatever and he talked 7 about going back to Kettle Point and getting some stuff and I 8 never -- I wasn't talking to him directly, I was over here so 9 -- 10 Q: So you were part of a group? Who else 11 was in the group? 12 A: I'm not too sure. There was quite a few 13 people were roaming around back and forth and I'm not really 14 too sure who he was talking to directly, but -- 15 Q: Did this conversation take place inside 16 the Park or out by his vehicle in the sandy parking lot? 17 A: I was pretty sure it was -- it was, like, 18 over the fence line there. He'd gotten out of his truck; 19 he'd parked out in that and everybody else, myself included, 20 was inside the Park and we'd gone up to the fence to see what 21 he was saying. 22 Q: And was Buck Doxtator part of the group 23 on the inside of the Park? Do you recall? 24 A: Yeah, he could have been. I'm not a 100 25 percent sure.
1981 Q: And was Wesley George a part of the 2 group? 3 A: Could have been. Like I said, I don't 4 really know who was there at that time, but those people were 5 there in the area and just -- 6 Q: And can you recall anything else that -- 7 among the -- the exchange that you overheard between Mr. 8 Cecil Bernard George and the people along the fence line -- 9 the occupiers? 10 A: I don't really remember hearing them say 11 too much, but one (1) of the last times that Slippery had 12 come back, he had brought a couple of scanners. 13 Q: But at this point he hadn't -- did he 14 have, the first time came, he asked if you needed anything 15 and he didn't have the scanners? 16 A: Not that I remember, no. 17 Q: Okay. But I just want to stick with the 18 first time he was there, Mr. Simon. Do you recall any 19 discussion with Mr. Cecil Bernard George about guns, when he 20 was there the first time, or overhear any words about guns? 21 A: No, I didn't hear nothing like that. 22 Q: And how long was Cecil Bernard George 23 there? 24 A: From what I seen, it was just a quick 25 stop, and he had just pulled up, said a few words, and then
1991 left again. 2 Q: Okay. And when you were in the -- excuse 3 me for a moment, Commissioner. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: The -- you mentioned Mr. Buck Doxtator, 10 had you met Mr. Buck Doxtator before September 6th? 11 A: Yeah, he had been down to the camp a few 12 times -- 13 Q: When you say, down to the camp, do you 14 mean -- 15 A: To Stony Point to the former Military 16 Base. 17 Q: Yes. When did you first meet Mr. Buck 18 Doxtator? 19 A: I'm not too sure when exactly I first met 20 him, but it was since we moved into the barracks, he'd come 21 around, visited with Dudley quite a bit in his trailer, back 22 at Inland Lakes and different times whenever he was coming 23 down for a visit, bring his wife and children. 24 Q: This was after the move into the built-up 25 area or after the move into the former Army Camp?
2001 A: I think he had been around before even. 2 I'm not too sure. 3 Q: And what about Mr. Gabriel Doxtator? 4 A: I'm not too sure either. 5 Q: When did you first meet him? 6 A: He had -- he had been around a few times 7 too, but I'm not positive. 8 Q: And Mr. Robert Isaac, when did you first 9 meet Mr. Robert Isaac? 10 A: It was when -- it was before I moved into 11 the barracks, and I'd say maybe in '94 sometime. 12 Q: And Mr. Isaac was from Walpole? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And Mr. Ed Isaac? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Had you met -- when did you first meet 17 Mr. Ed Isaac? 18 A: I had met quite a few of those guys at 19 one time, they were -- I'm not too sure what was taking 20 place, it was back in '94 there was a meeting at that hall, 21 the meeting hall, argument hall, whatever you want to call 22 it, on 21. 23 The police were in there, they were -- there 24 had been an incident that -- the night before where some 25 tires had been slashed, my brother's tires on his -- his
2011 vehicle were slashed, my cousin's car had been rummaged 2 through, his stereo had been vandalized. 3 And after that had taken place, we -- we had 4 done a sweep of the area. My Uncle Glenn and Worm, they had 5 found a military, I don't know if he was a Military Police, 6 there was some sort of military guy down on the roadway 7 outside of the Park. They had asked him what he was doing 8 and he was -- they said he was quite drunk. 9 Q: Now you weren't there? 10 A: No, I wasn't there at that -- 11 Q: So, tell me, so -- 12 A: But that meeting that took place after 13 that incident, wherever took place, like you said, I wasn't 14 there, but the next day we had that meeting at the -- at the 15 meeting hall up on 21. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: And that's when I first met the Isaac 18 brothers who had -- so we had called them up and asked for 19 support and they had come down. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: Brought a truckload. 22 Q: -- the police that were -- you met with 23 the police, was it the Military Police or the Ontario 24 Provincial Police? 25 A: It was the OPP.
2021 Q: And the purpose of the meeting was to 2 discuss the incident the night before? 3 A: Yeah. We wanted -- we wanted to talk 4 about the vandalism and the fact that these guys are roaming 5 around drunk and they wanted to talk about other stuff I 6 guess. They were asking for basically for names of who was 7 staying here and stuff like that. 8 And they flat outright refused to remove their 9 guns. We had told them about the peace tree being out there 10 and nobody here was armed. They refused that and they were 11 in my view, very disrespectful of our traditions, our 12 customs. 13 Q: And how many police officers attended at 14 this meeting? 15 A: I'm not too sure. There -- there wasn't 16 too many. There was just a couple. 17 Q: So that's when you met Robert Isaac and 18 Ed Isaac? 19 A: Yeah. And Sam -- 20 Q: Sam Isaac? 21 A: -- and a couple of their nephews. 22 Q: And what about Russell Jewel? When did 23 you -- did you know Russell Jewel? Do you know Russell 24 Jewel? 25 A: I had met them -- they'd start coming
2031 around I'd say around the same time that Buck had started 2 coming down. A while after, I'm not too sure. 3 Q: So '94, '95? 4 A: Yeah. Somewhere -- I'd say probably 5 closer to '95. 6 Q: After you moved into the built-up area? 7 A: They -- they'd been around before a few 8 times but more after we'd been into the barracks. 9 Q: And so they is Russell Jewel and his 10 brother Les Jewel? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And where -- did you know where they were 13 from? 14 A: They said they were members of Muncey, 15 Chippewas at Thames, I'm not too sure. I know they had -- 16 they both had lived in the States. I think their sister had 17 a junkyard over there. 18 Q: Their sister had a which? 19 A: Their sister had a junkyard. 20 Q: Oh. Thanks. And what about Mr. Al 21 George? Had you met him? Do you know him? 22 A: I knew him. He's deceased. 23 Q: He's now deceased. Yes. And how did you 24 meet him? 25 A: Basically the same way. Come down to
2041 show his support. He'd invite us back. He was from Oneida, 2 invite us back, showed us -- introduced us to some of his 3 relations and family and friends I guess. Just another 4 person that showed a lot of support to our cause, what we 5 were doing in claiming our land. 6 Q: And Mr. Chuck George? 7 A: Same thing. Same thing, he's a supporter 8 that come around. 9 Q: And Mr. Larry French? Dutch French I 10 think. 11 A: I had known him a lot longer. Didn't 12 know him, like, personally but I knew of him. Must have been 13 a friend of my mom's when they were teenagers at one point. 14 I seen him around quite a bit when I'd be down in Muncey. 15 Q: But did you see him -- did he come in the 16 summer of 1995 to the built-up area to the Army Camp after 17 you moved into the built-up area? 18 A: Yeah. He'd come down to visit to show us 19 support. 20 Q: And Mr. Wilson? 21 A: Mr. Wilson? 22 Q: No, I've got the wrong name. Could I 23 just have one moment, sir? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I need -- I left
2051 something. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As you were. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Do you know a Mr. Wayne Wilson? 9 A: I'm not sure. I don't think so. 10 Q: Okay. Also known as Wayne Pine? 11 A: That name sounds familiar. I met him 12 after he'd been into -- into the barracks there. 13 Q: You first met him after you went into the 14 barracks? 15 A: Yeah -- I don't really know him. 16 Q: And do you know where Mr. Pine was from? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Now you've told us about the first 19 time Mr. Cecil Bernard George came to the Park, or at least 20 you saw him on September 6th. He -- I take it from you said, 21 he left -- left the sandy parking lot. And how did he leave? 22 Did he drive back down onto the -- down onto the beach and 23 leave that way? Or do you recall? 24 A: I'm not really too sure. I thought he 25 had gone down the beach, I don't know.
2061 Q: And -- 2 A: He was driving anyway. 3 Q: -- when did Mr. Cecil Bernard George 4 return? 5 A: He had come back there just before dark 6 again, that's when he brought the -- the scanners and walkie- 7 talkies and stuff. 8 Q: And did he drive in this time? 9 A: I don't think so. I think he might have 10 walked up that time, because I didn't see his truck around. 11 Q: And was it -- you said it -- was it dark 12 by the time he came back the second time? 13 A: Either it was dark or just getting dark. 14 Q: And he brought with him -- could you -- 15 A: A couple -- 16 Q: -- a couple of walkie-talkies? 17 A: Yeah. And the scanners. They're, you 18 know, the same size as a walkie-talkie but they -- they scan 19 the other radio waves I guess and -- 20 Q: And was it like -- 21 A: -- you can listen to what the police are 22 saying. 23 Q: Was it like a walkie-talkie but you could 24 pick up -- you could pick up other conversations? 25 A: Yeah.
2071 Q: And on the evening of September 6th, did 2 you have occasion to go to the gatehouse at anytime? 3 A: Not that I recall. 4 Q: And did you observe anyone on the evening 5 of September 6th, just before dark, at the gatehouse? 6 A: Not that I recall. 7 Q: Were you ever inside the gatehouse -- 8 A: Which building are you referring to as 9 the gatehouse anyway before -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- we go any further there? 12 Q: Fair enough. I'm referring to the little 13 building that was at the entrance to -- where the people went 14 through to register in the Park. 15 A: All right. There was actually, I'm -- 16 I'm pretty sure, if I'm not mistaken, there was, like, two 17 (2) little buildings there. They're both gone now but at the 18 time. 19 Q: But the one -- 20 A: But either way I -- I don't recall 21 anybody. 22 Q: Neither -- you don't -- you don't recall. 23 I understand there was a building that -- we see it on a 24 video -- just where the -- where the road comes in, splits 25 around, as you can see on Exhibit P-61, and it's on the north
2081 side of the road, where people registered, it was -- I can't 2 tell you the size, but it was brown. Do you recall something 3 like that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And that's what I was referring to as the 6 gatehouse. 7 A: Yeah. I just had to make sure. 8 Q: Okay. And were you ever inside that 9 building? 10 A: I don't think so, no. 11 Q: And that building, were you on the roof - 12 - 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- or see anyone on the roof on the 15 evening of September 6th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Just before dark? And on September 6th, 18 prior to Cecil Bernard George coming back the second time, 19 did you observe any guns of any type in the Park, in the 20 hands of the occupiers? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And prior to Cecil Bernard George coming 23 back, did you observe people in the Park with sticks or clubs 24 or baseball bats? 25 A: Yeah, there was -- more people were
2091 collecting sticks. Some of the -- there was a lot of rocks 2 that were -- some of the bigger rocks out of the parking lot, 3 some paving stones that were from the store. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: But that was mostly around by the store 6 part and that was kind of as a result of what happened the 7 night before with the police coming up there with their 8 shields and -- and their sticks, so their people were about 9 to leave and had to -- I guess -- felt the need to defend 10 ourselves some way. 11 Q: And the -- were the stones and the -- the 12 -- that you just referred to -- and the rocks, were they 13 stockpiled somewhere? Were they put somewhere or what 14 happened? 15 A: In a way, there -- like, in front of the 16 store there, we had that main fire -- main bonfire or 17 whatever and people were kind of collecting stuff up since 18 that's where the police had marched up to before. That's 19 where the main majority of our people were. 20 Q: Just to the east of the main gate and 21 the turnstile toward the Park store? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And were -- were trees cut down for -- to 24 -- to make into -- for use as sticks? Do you recall that? 25 A: I don't recall that.
2101 Q: Okay. And there were stones -- there 2 were paving stones or paving bricks taken by -- from the Park 3 store? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: The patio? They're taken -- 6 A: Yeah, they're -- I don't know -- maybe 7 four (4) by three (3) or something like that. Four (4) 8 inches by three (3) inches or something. They're just a 9 small interlocking paving stone. 10 We were picking some of those up, but most -- 11 most of the stuff that was around was just the different 12 rocks and the bigger, basically, stones that were picked out 13 of the gravel from the parking lot. 14 Q: So, the -- mainly stones picked out of 15 the -- from the -- 16 A: Yeah, some of bigger ones. 17 Q: From the -- from the sand and gravel in 18 the parking lot? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And I take it the parking lot was sand 21 and gravel as opposed to pavement? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: So -- and prior to dark on the evening of 24 September 6th, had you participated in any discussion or 25 heard any discussion about an injunction?
2111 A: I remember hearing somebody mention 2 something about an injunction, but they had gone up to the -- 3 where the police were. I don't even remember which day that 4 was -- what they had -- the police were saying something 5 about an injunction and really, whoever was telling me about 6 it, they didn't understand what it was, either, so I 7 wasn't -- 8 Q: So, you didn't observe this? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Someone mentioned to you that some -- a 11 police officer -- someone came and mentioned something about 12 an injunction? 13 A: Yeah, or something like that. It was 14 just something I had heard; somebody else had heard and we 15 were -- 16 Q: Did you know what it referred -- did you 17 know -- do you -- did you know back in September 1995 what an 18 injunction was? 19 A: I still don't. 20 Q: Okay. And at any time before the -- it 21 got dark on September 6, had you been advised by the Ontario 22 Provincial Police that if you stayed within the Park, the 23 members of Ontario Provincial Police would not come into the 24 Park? 25 A: No.
2121 Q: And were you ever advised, or did you 2 hear the Ontario Provincial Police tell anyone in the sandy 3 parking lot to leave the sandy parking lot and go back into 4 the Park? 5 A: No. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Did you participate in or over -- 10 involved in a discussion among the occupiers about 11 communicating with the Ontario Provincial Police as to what 12 you were doing in the Park? 13 A: Some of us had talked to each other about 14 the police. I'd -- they'd keep asking every so often -- ask 15 different people as they -- they'd be stopping cars that 16 would come in -- different supporters as they come into the 17 Army Camp, the barracks or -- 18 Q: Up by -- up by Highway 21? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: They'd stop them and they'd be asking him 22 who -- who the spokesman was and stuff like that, and that 23 they wanted to -- basically wanted a name. And what our -- 24 our response was that we weren't going to go that way because 25 of the past dealings, our -- our spokespeople have been
2131 harassed. 2 And anybody that's picture has been in the 3 paper or anything where they stand up to be -- and turn 4 themselves into a target and they, being a spokes person. So 5 a lot of us we were saying to each other that we weren't 6 going to go that route and that if they wanted to speak, they 7 would speak to everyone, and -- 8 Q: That -- 9 A: -- I don't really know how that would 10 work, but we knew that we didn't want to be a target. 11 Q: And, but did you discuss that, or were 12 you part of a discussion, or overheard a discussion as to how 13 you were going to communicate what you were doing to the 14 Ontario Provincial Police so that they would know why you 15 were in the Park? 16 A: Not really, no. 17 Q: No. And were you personally asked by an 18 Ontario Provincial Police Officer when you went into the Army 19 Camp, on either the 4th or the 5th or the 6th, who the 20 leaders were? 21 A: I had heard them asking other people, but 22 I stayed clear. 23 Q: You heard -- but you overheard this -- 24 A: Yeah, they were -- 25 Q: And were you told or were you aware of an
2141 incident on September, I believe it was September -- on 2 September 5th when two (2) police officers approached the 3 fence in an attempt to talk to someone? 4 A: I don't recall that, no. 5 Q: And on the evening of September 6th, 6 prior to dark on September 6th, were you out on the sandy 7 parking lot at any time prior to it getting dark? 8 A: On the 6th? 9 Q: On the 6th. 10 A: No, I don't think so. I might have went 11 out there and have a look down the road and something like 12 that, but -- 13 Q: Were you -- did you -- you told us that 14 you were not there when the incident took place between 15 Gerald George and Stewart George; were you told about that 16 incident? 17 A: Yeah. I was coming from the barracks' 18 direction and I had -- I had recognized his car while we were 19 talking to the police at a barricade, or a road check set up. 20 Q: And where was that, on the evening of 21 September 6th on Army Camp Road? 22 A: Yeah, south of Matheson Drive -- 23 Q: By the trailer park? 24 A: Yeah, somewhere in that area. 25 Q: Yes?
2151 A: I had gone around -- around the back into 2 the Park to where, basically up in the sandy parking lot 3 there, and I noticed a few people around there, talking away, 4 so I went up to find out what was going on. 5 That's when I was -- I was told about what 6 happened with Stewart and Gerald. 7 Q: And who told you about Stewart and 8 Gerald? 9 A: I don't remember, it could have been -- 10 it could have been Stewart himself, I really don't know. 11 Q: You can't remember? And when you -- so 12 you saw -- you were driving up to the Provincial Park north 13 on the road parallel to Army Camp Road, you saw Cecil 14 Bernard, not Cecil, Gerald George speaking to the Ontario 15 Provincial Police at a checkpoint? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And did -- how did you get then, into the 18 Park? Did you drive past the maintenance building or did you 19 go through the entrance on the east side of the Park? 20 A: On the east side, through the -- 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Yeah, off of Matheson Drive around on the 23 east side, and -- 24 Q: Off Matheson Drive? 25 A: I guess they were both off of Matheson
2161 Drive. 2 Q: They're both off Matheson Drive. At some 3 point there was some trees chopped down on Matheson Drive, 4 weren't there? 5 A: I had -- I thought that was after the 6 6th, I'm not too sure though. 7 Q: Did -- is it -- you could get to Matheson 8 Drive on the east side through staying on the inside of the 9 Army Camp, couldn't you? 10 A: Yeah, there is roads parallel to Matheson 11 Drive, when it's running east to west and north to south, 12 that one follows all the way around. 13 Q: And do you recall if you used that road 14 to get to the entrance off Matheson Drive? 15 A: I don't remember -- don't remember. 16 Q: Don't remember? So you went into the 17 Park and you drove over towards the Park store, and parked by 18 the Park store; is that correct? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And -- and the people that you spoke to 21 who told you about the incident between Gerald George and 22 Stewart George, were they on the inside of the Park or on the 23 outside of the Park? 24 A: I was told about it on the inside but 25 there were still some people out on the outside there. They
2171 were looking down the road and pointing at his car. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: You could see that roadblock from. 4 Q: How many people were on the outside of 5 the -- the Park at the intersection of East Parkway Drive and 6 Army Camp Road that you observed? 7 A: Just a couple. 8 Q: Couple? 9 A: Yeah. And they both go out there to have 10 a look and Yeah, he's still down there and come back. 11 Q: They came back into the Park? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Did you observe six (6) or seven (7) 14 people outside the Park at or near the evening who spoke to a 15 motorist who drove -- a person who drove up in a car? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you observe any people out in the -- 18 in the sandy parking lot near the intersection of East 19 Parkway and the curve between East Parkway Drive and Army 20 Camp Road with baseball bats or clubs? 21 A: No. 22 Q: So Cecil Bernard George returns, he 23 brought with him the walkie talkie -- were they walkie 24 talkies or are they the walkie talkies you're referring to 25 were the -- the ones of the scanners that would pick up the
2181 police. 2 A: I thought there was both. He had -- 3 there was a few things but I wasn't too sure what all he 4 brought. As he handed it out I just kind of -- it was kind 5 of dark. And a lot of people around you can hardly -- stuff 6 kind of disappeared but -- my attention was drawn to that 7 scanner. 8 Because I had known -- I had seen a scanner 9 before and what they were for so I started get closer to 10 where I seen that one being played with. And the guy's got 11 it working and as soon as it turned on, it sounded pretty 12 suspicious and activity that was going on on there. And guys 13 were whispering, talking about us in the Park. 14 They were saying that they had some badgers in 15 the Park and saying that there's somebody on the roof. 16 They're using code names for each other whenever they -- 17 different person would start talking. 18 Q: Could you just -- 19 A: There was a lot of different stuff that 20 they were saying on there but it was all -- didn't really 21 make no sense to me. 22 Q: Can you tell me as best you can remember, 23 Mr. Simon, what you overheard on the radio? When you first 24 started listening to the radio? You said badgers in the 25 Park. Did you recall anything else specifically?
2191 A: I heard them saying something about 2 somebody on the roof. And I heard them saying -- 3 Q: When they said somebody was on the roof, 4 was that it? Somebody was on the roof? 5 A: It was more like I'm on the roof when you 6 hear somebody say that. It was the -- it was the police that 7 were talking. 8 Q: And how do you know it was the police? 9 A: Well, I took for granted it was the 10 police. I knew it wasn't -- 11 Q: You assumed it was the police? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. So you heard someone say, I'm on 14 the roof? What else did you hear? 15 A: Well, whoever said that, they had a -- it 16 must be like a name for themselves or something. They said 17 that and then heard that phrase. They were really whispering 18 really quiet. Then somebody else would come on there. And 19 they were saying that the badgers there in the -- in the 20 Park. 21 Q: And did you know what that meant? 22 A: No, I have no idea. 23 Q: Anything else? 24 A: I might have heard them say that it's a 25 go, something along those lines. Not really too sure what
2201 all. I didn't really listen for a whole lot after we'd heard 2 that there was somebody on the roof and that they had -- I 3 think they said something about having a line of vision on 4 those protesters or whatever they called us. 5 All of us that were in the Park, we kind of 6 spread out, people started looking at the different roof tops 7 around and a lot of us thought that it was -- there's a 8 A-frame building on -- 9 Q: The A-frame building on the southwest 10 corner? 11 A: Yeah. Southwest. 12 Q: It's -- 13 A: Of Army Camp and East Parkway. 14 Q: On at -- on P-103 there's some buildings 15 on the -- shown on the southwest corner and I think that the 16 A-frame building is in that area? 17 A: Yeah it must be. I dind't realize those 18 were there. 19 Q: It's the first square -- I think it's 20 probably with a square. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: People had gone over and checked that 24 out. 25 Q: People went over after they heard this
2211 and checked that out? 2 A: Yeah. Others had gone over to the Park 3 store. I remember Dudley -- Dudley had been at that Park 4 store and was saying that he couldn't see nobody up around 5 that roof. I don't know if he had gone up on the roof or -- 6 or what. But everybody else kind of scattered out like that, 7 search around see what we -- we could see or what we could 8 find. 9 Q: And did you find anything? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. Commissioner, it's about 4:30, 12 perhaps -- let me just ask one (1) -- did he -- do you recall 13 hear anything else over the scanners at this time? 14 A: No. Not that I can remember. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you. This would probably be 16 a convenient time to stop. Now, tomorrow morning we start at 17 9:00 again. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we'll go to 3:30. And 20 what I -- I will probably be, for My Friends' benefit, about 21 an hour probably, maybe an hour and a half, two (2) hours 22 with Mr. Simon in the morning, and then we'll do the cross- 23 examination. 24 And I don't think -- that will probably take 25 us in the afternoon. And I would not propose to call our
2221 next witness, which is Cecil Bernard George, if we finish in 2 the afternoon, and which I think we would. So I will not be 3 calling him. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if we finish 5 early -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We'll -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we'll just 8 adjourn whenever we're finished. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. When we're finished 10 Mr. Simon we -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and not call 12 another witness. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- we'll be done for the 14 week. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 Thank you very much. See you tomorrow morning at -- at 9:00. 17 Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Mr. Roland? 18 MR. IAN ROLAND: One -- one (1) matter. I've 19 spoken to Mr. Millar and I've spoken to Mr. Rosenthal about 20 this. It appears that Mr. Rosenthal, who is Counsel to this 21 witness, has some areas he wants to cover with this witness 22 that isn't part of the examination of Mr. Millar. 23 And it's my suggestion, I think concurred in 24 by Mr. Millar and Mr. Rosenthal, that Mr. Rosenthal be given 25 the opportunity to ask those questions immediately after Mr.
2231 Millar, although he would still retain the opportunity to re- 2 examine at the end of all of the cross-examination. In that 3 way it allows those people who are cross-examining to be able 4 to do so fully. 5 And I think that's -- I -- I spoke briefly 6 with both Counsel and they seem to have no difficulty with 7 that proposal. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It sounds like a 9 more sensible way. The alternative would be to have him do 10 it at the end and then have everybody come back and re-cross- 11 examine on what comes out of that. So is that all right with 12 you? Mr. Rosenthal...? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, that's fine. I 14 just wanted to clarify. What I would do right after Mr. 15 Millar then is only areas that Mr. Millar has not touched 16 upon -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That you -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- that I want to 19 introduce in the first instance, and then at the end I would 20 re-examine in the normal-- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- manner of re- 23 examination. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that seems to 25 be the plan. Does anybody have any objection to that? It
2241 seems to make sense. All right. We may have to do that 2 again with -- with a -- with another party. We'll see as we 3 develop. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. So Mr. Rosenthal 5 would do what he wanted to do initially after we're done and 6 then he would have the right to re-examine after everyone had 7 cross-examined. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, sir. 10 Thank you very much Mr. Simon. 11 12 (WITNESS RETIRES) 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 15 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, December 2nd, at 9:00 16 a.m. 17 18 --- Upon adjourning at 4:32 p.m. 19 20 Certified Correct 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 Dustin Warnock