11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 August 31st, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 15 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 16 17 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 6 7 8 JULIE RAMONA JAI, Resumed 9 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 15 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 295 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-650 Document 1003516. Sept 05/'95 fax 4 from Jeff McCombe to Julie Jai: 5 Various e-mail memos re. "Highway 21 6 and camp Ipperwash" including replies. 23 7 P-651 Document Number 1011733. Julie Jai's 8 Handwritten notes re. Notes for briefing 9 minister Harnick, Sept 06/'95. 61 10 P-652 Document Number 3000565 Memorandum 11 from David Carson to Julie Jai re. 12 Burial sites, Sept 06/'95. 130 13 P-653 Document Number 1011762. E-mail 14 Memorandum from Julie Jai re: 15 Ipperwash Update, Sept 06/'95. 131 16 P-654 Document Number 1003305. E-mail 17 memorandum from Julie Jai to Yan Lazor 18 re: Update on Ipperwash, Sept 06/'95. 137 19 P-655 Document Number 1011837. Ipperwash - 20 To do list with handwritten notes, 21 Sept 7/'95. 156 22 P-656 Document Number 1011834 Julie Jai's 23 Handwritten notes RE: I.M.C. Meeting, 24 Pages 1 & 2. Sept 07/'95. 164 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-657 Document Number 1011834. Julie Jai's 4 handwritten notes RE: I.M.C Meeting, 5 4 Pages, Sept 07/'95. 170 6 P-658 Document Number 1011834. Julie Jai's 7 handwritten notes RE: I.M.C Meeting, 8 4 Pages, Sept 07/'95 184 9 P-659 Document Number 1011845. Material for: 10 E. Todres, L. Taman, R. Vrancart. 11 Sept 07/'95. 189 12 P-660 Document Number 1003523. Draft Version: 13 Some initial thoughts for managing 14 aboriginal relations after aboriginal 15 incident, Sept 07/'95. 196 16 P-661 Document Number 3000002. "Ipperwash 17 Incident - Crisis Communications 18 Procedures and Contract List." 19 Sept 07/'95. 198 20 P-662 Document Number 1003773. Email from 21 L. Hunter to E. Hipfner, A. MacDonald. 22 re: Injunction, Endorsement of Daudlin, 23 J. Sept 07/'95. 201 24 25
81 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-663 Document No. 1003730 memorandum 4 from Julie Jai re: "Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park" Sept. 08, '95 206 6 P-664 Document No. 1003530 Draft: 7 Historical backgrounder with 8 handwritten notes Sept. 08/'95 209 9 P-665 Document No. 1000893 seven documents 10 re: incident at Ipperwash Provincial 11 Park, Sept 08, '95 212 12 P-666 Document No. 1003459 email from Julie 13 Jai to distribution list re: 14 Ipperwash Park situation Sept 08/'95 212 15 P-667 Document No. 1011859 ONAS briefing 16 note - assertion of claim to Ipperwash 17 Provincial Park and the land claims 18 process, Sept. 08/'95 215 19 P-668 Document 1012573 fax message to Si Zagar 20 from C. Elder re: News release, 21 Sept. 08/'95 220 22 23 24 25
91 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-669 Document No. 1012573 memo to E. Todres 4 re: Authority and obligations of the 5 OPP with respect to trespass by Stoney 6 Point Community members on civil 7 defence establishments at Ipperwash, 8 Sept. 08/'95 220 9 P-670 Document No. 1012573 handwritten fax 10 to Julie Jai from John Kennedy re: 11 planned rally, Sept. 08/'95 221 12 P-671 Document No. 1011860 email to Julie Jai 13 from Dave Carson re: Ipperwash - 14 Cemeteries Act, Sept. 08/'95 223 15 P-672 Document 1011860 faxed memo from D. 16 Carson to J. Jai re: Burial sites - 17 addendum, Sept. 08/'95 224 18 P-673 Document No. 1003490 fax to J. Jai 19 from A. MacDonald "Statement to be 20 read to the court, Sept. 11/'95" with 21 handwritten corrections and addendum 22 to statement made in court, Sept. 11/'95 226 23 24 25
101 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-674 Document No. 1001593; 1001596; 4 101140; 1010892 documents re: 5 Indian burial grounds, August 1937 231 6 P-675 Document 1011891 J. Jai's handwritten 7 note re: Hubert Ryan, Sept. 12/'95 233 8 P-676 Document 1003549 fax to J. Jai from 9 G. Brennan, Federal Government 10 release Sept. 12/'95 235 11 P-677 Document 1011868 - 18 documents 12 related to First Nations issues, 13 Sept 11/'95 236 14 P-678 Document 1003608 ONAS memo to J. 15 Jai from D. Carson re: Kettle and 16 Stony Point First Nation/Stoney 17 Point group outstanding litigation 18 Sept. 11/'95 237 19 P-679 Document 1003781 Potential hot spots 20 - to Eileen Hipfner from Y. Lazor 21 Sept. 11/'95 238 22 P-680 Document 1003540 handwritten notes 23 re: hot spots, Sept. 11/'95 240 24 25
111 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-681 Document 1003538 fax from J. Jai to Y. 4 Lazor re: burial sites, habitation 5 sites Sept 11/'95 241 6 P-682 Document 1003542 handwritten note from 7 Lise to J. Jai re: Possible 8 additions to list of potential hot 9 spots, Sept. 11/'95 242 10 P-683 Document 1003543 letter to Premier 11 M. Harris from Chief of Chippewas of 12 Nawash Sept. 11/'95 243 13 P-684 Document 1003544 handwritten notes re: 14 Premier meeting with Aboriginal 15 leaders for 20-30 minutes, Sept. 12/95 247 16 P-685 Document 1003548 email from S. Zagar 17 to J. Jai re: C. Elder September 12/'95 249 18 P-686 Document 3000567 Minister's briefing 19 form: New Information regarding native 20 burial site in Ipperwash Provincial 21 Park, Sept. 13/'95 252 22 P-687 Document 1003555 Chiefs of Ontario 23 Bulletin, Sept 13/'95 253 24 P-688 Document 1011904 memo from J. Van 25 West, Sept. 13/'95 256
121 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-689 Document 1003551 fax to Y. Lazor 4 from D. McCaslin - Petrolia meeting 5 Sept 13/'95 257 6 P-690 Document 1003556 J. Jai's handwritten 7 notes Sept 13/'95 259 8 P-691 Document 1003563 email from E. Hipfner 9 to J. Jai re: voicemail update with 10 handwritten notations, Sept 13/'95 260 11 P-692 Document 1003550 email from C. Beachey 12 re: Irwin's press conference, 13 Sept 13/'95 262 14 P-693 Document 1008859 fax from J. Jai - 5 15 documents re Aboriginal issues, Sept 16 14/'95 263 17 P-694 Document 1011914 MNR letter to J. Jai 18 et al re: Ipperwash Park, Sept. 14/'95 265 19 P-695 Document 1003563 transcribed voice mail 20 J. Jai, Sept. 14/'95 266 21 P-696 Document 1011920 ONAS House note for 22 Harnick, Sept. 14/'95 268 23 P-697 Document 1000958 fax to J. Jai et al 24 re: Report of Park's water system 25 Sept. 19/'95 270
131 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-698 Document 1012428 report re: 4 Ipperwash occupation, burial site 5 strategy, Park water strategy: 6 overall strategy and mandate draft 7 letter, Sept. 20/'95 273 8 P-699 Document 1012068 ONAS support group 9 - agenda with handwritten notes Oct 10 03/'95 274 11 P-700 Document 1000948 ONAS support group 12 - update Oct 03/'95 275 13 P-701 Document 1012036 email from J. Jai 14 re: F/P strategy re: Ipperwash, 15 Sept. 22/'95 277 16 P-702 Document 1012092 fax from J. Jai: 2 17 briefing notes for L. Taman, October 18 24/'95 281 19 P-703 Document 1012134 ONAS memo from J. 20 Jai: revised procedures for Aboriginal 21 emergencies with handwritten comments, 22 November 27/'95 283 23 24 25
141 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, Ms. Jai. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin I just 13 wanted to advise everyone about an administrative matter. 14 On Thursday, September 22nd we made arrangements to have 15 Mr. Bruce Elijah return and complete his evidence. 16 His evidence will begin at ten o'clock in 17 the morning on September 22nd. Mr. Roland has advised us 18 that he anticipates approximately three (3) hours more 19 and there'll be -- Mr. Downard has some cross-examination 20 and there may be some re-examination. So we've set aside 21 four (4) hours for that. 22 And as we get closer to the day, we'll see 23 where we are with our witnesses, how we're going to work 24 the balance of September 22nd. But I just wanted to 25 alert everyone that Mr. Bruce Elijah will be returning on
151 September 22nd. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 3 Mr. Millar. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 5 6 JULIE RAMONA JAI, Resumed; 7 8 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Now, Ms. Jai, if we could turn to 10 your handwritten notes which are at Tab 31 and -- of the 11 first volume. And I just wanted to see if we could clear 12 up one (1) matter. 13 If you go to the notes for September 5th 14 which are the eighth page in. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when you made these notes, and we 17 went through them yesterday, but for example, on page 1 18 at the bottom -- on page 1 we have an entry: 19 "Ron Fox" 20 And then there's a dash beside it: 21 "About thirty-five (35) to forty (40) 22 people". 23 And I take it that refers to what was said 24 by Ron Fox? 25 A: Yes, that's correct.
161 Q: And then the next -- the next 2 paragraph below that: 3 "attempting -- attempt to serve written 4 notice". 5 Does that again refer to what was said by 6 Mr. Fox? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then we have: 9 "Peter Sturdy" 10 And a dash: 11 "Residents refuse to accept." 12 And then it goes up to page -- at the top 13 of page 2. And is the balance of page 2 down to, 14 "options" items that were said by Peter Sturdy or items 15 that may have been talked about by other people? 16 A: I believe in this case that the -- 17 almost all of this was said by Peter Sturdy. 18 Q: Okay. And then if we go to page -- 19 the bottom of page 3 there -- there's an entry, "Peter" 20 and then, "always possible". And then at the top of page 21 4 there's an entry: 22 "What is the OPP's sense of the group?" 23 Another entry: 24 "Need more intelligence. What is the 25 level of tolerance?"
171 Are those items that were spoken by Peter 2 Sturdy or is there some point of differentiation just 3 given the -- how the notes are drawn? 4 A: Okay. First, I don't know if that 5 was Peter Sturdy or Peter Allen. 6 Q: Or Peter Allen. One (1) of the 7 other. 8 A: Because there are the two (2) Peters 9 who were there. 10 Q: Sure. 11 A: And I think that it -- there could -- 12 it could well have been that another speaker started at 13 some point, like where it says: 14 "What is the level of -- what is the 15 level of tolerance of -- of the 16 Government?" 17 That was probably another speaker. 18 I mean first -- I say that because of both 19 the subject matter but the fact that there's no longer a 20 little dash. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: You know, the others it said, "Peter 23 Sturdy" and then there was a dash and then a dash and a 24 dash, like a little, you know, sort of bullet point 25 almost under Peter -- or I think it was Peter Sturdy --
181 under his name and then it's gone back to the margin. 2 So, it suggests to me that it was a 3 different speaker. 4 Q: And then the item, "Premier asked", I 5 think you said yesterday you think that that bullet 6 point, that was Ms. Hutton? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the -- so I'm just trying to 9 determine if there's any way others reading this could 10 tell. And it gets -- as you get back farther in the notes 11 there are fewer names and more -- more -- more paragraphs 12 but fewer names. 13 So, it's -- back there is there any 14 methodology that you can think of today you used on 15 September 5th to divide up who was speaking? 16 A: No, it -- it's very hard to tell. 17 Q: Okay. Thank you. And on September 18 5th when you called the meeting -- arranged to call the 19 meeting of the Interministerial Committee did you have -- 20 had you considered what you would have liked to have seen 21 come out of the meeting before you called it? 22 A: Well, I think I would have liked to 23 have -- that -- that my -- one (1) of my goals going into 24 the meeting was to have -- to reach consensus around some 25 sort of recommendation that would result in a process to
191 end the occupation of the Park. 2 Q: And as -- with respect to that being 3 your goal, that -- had you considered prior to the 4 beginning of the meeting what the recommendation might -- 5 might have been? 6 A: I don't know if I had time to think 7 it through, given that we had to call the meeting and it 8 was -- I think it was at 11:00 -- 11:00 a.m. and I -- you 9 know, just that time was very limited. 10 So, I don't know if I had thought through 11 the precise recommendation. 12 Q: Okay. And in -- on August the 2nd or 13 on September the 5th, had you any familiarity with the 14 burial practices of First Nations people? 15 A: Sorry, was that burial practices? 16 Q: Burial practices. 17 A: Burial practices. Not specifically. 18 Q: And the -- but you were aware that 19 burial sites for any cul -- any group are important? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And after the meeting or at the 22 meeting, do you recall any discussion by Ron Fox about 23 the -- an injunction and the OPP in relation to an 24 injunction? 25 A: Well, his view, and I can't remember
201 if this was said at the meeting or in other conversations 2 I had with Ron that day or -- but was that the OPP always 3 preferred to have an injunction and to be enforcing a 4 civil injunction as opposed to laying charges under the 5 Criminal Code. 6 Q: And that was a view that he expressed 7 either at the meeting or to you at that time? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall any discussion at 10 the meeting about colour of right? 11 A: Ron used that expression to me a 12 couple of times with respect to the occupation. I don't 13 remember if it was at the meeting or in a phone 14 conversation with him that day. 15 Q: And what did -- do you recall him 16 saying about colour of right? 17 A: I think his words were to the effect 18 that it's different or that these people may have colour 19 of right or that there's a -- that they have this -- it's 20 different from ordinary people going in without any 21 reason for being there. If there was a burial ground, 22 that Ron felt that they had -- they were there acting 23 under some colour of right. 24 Q: Okay. If -- I would like you to turn 25 to Tab 23 of the Book of Documents. This is Inquiry
211 document 1003516. And this is a fax cover sheet from 2 Jeff McCombe to you, dated September -- the fax 3 indication is September the 5th, 1995 at 13:37. 4 And do you -- did you receive this, Ms. 5 Jai? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And attached to the fax are a number 8 of e-mails dated September the 5th. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And were they faxed to you at or 11 about the time -- with this particular fax? 12 A: The whole package came together. 13 Q: And I take -- just looking at this, 14 either the -- the time indicator on the fax machine with 15 respect to the fax is wrong or the e-mails, the dates of 16 the e-mails -- the times on the e-mails are incorrect, 17 because the e-mails are dated at 2:40, 11:23 and 3:01 18 p.m. on September the 5th. 19 Do you recall when you got this e-mail -- 20 this fax? 21 A: No, I don't recall when I got it. 22 Q: And this relates to the issue of 23 roads? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the first e-mail from a Mr.
221 Godwin (phonetic) relates to Highway 21? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the second e-mail, as well, from 4 Mr. McCombe to Mr. Godwin which started this out relates 5 to Highway 21 and local roads? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the third e-mail from Mr. McCombe 8 dated -- dated 3:01 p.m. on September 5th refers to the 9 road along the side of the Reserve. 10 Do you know which word that is; Highway 21 11 or the road on the west side of the Army Camp; Army Camp 12 Road? 13 A: I don't know which road it's 14 referring to. 15 Q: But, you were interested in that 16 because of -- this information because of the roads in 17 the area? 18 A: Well, there was just the concern that 19 a road would be blockaded so we looked into what the 20 adjacent roads were and just kind of trying to assess the 21 risk of some adjacent road being blockaded. 22 Since -- I mean the committee as you know, 23 the Emergency Committee is also called the 'Blockades 24 Committee' colloquially, so the most common type of 25 emergency or the most common direction action that had
231 been taken in the past by Aboriginal groups had been 2 blockading roads. So, it's natural to be concerned about 3 the possibility of nearby roads being blocked. 4 Q: Sure. Thank you. And Commissioner, 5 I would ask that that being marked the next exhibit. It 6 would be P-640. Thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-650, Your Honour. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 650, excuse me. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-650: Document 1003516. Sept 11 05/'95 fax from Jeff McCombe 12 to Julie Jai: Various e-mail 13 memos re. "Highway 21 and 14 camp Ipperwash" including 15 replies. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Now, we looked yesterday at the e- 19 mail that you sent to Mr. Lazor at Tab 25, it's Exhibit 20 P-649, Inquiry Document 1011769. 21 Can you tell us other than sending this e- 22 mail what you did after the September 5th meeting? 23 A: Yes. I prepared a briefing note for 24 the Minister; that's the blue note that's referred in 25 this e-mail.
241 Q: Yes. 2 A: I also reviewed the minutes from the 3 Interministerial Committee meeting and revised them so 4 that they could be sent out. And I also met with the 5 legal subcommittee to look at the specific options, like 6 the injunction or trespass or other charges. 7 So, that would have been with Elizabeth 8 Christie and Tim McCabe, and we got input from Scott 9 Hutchison as well. I'm not sure if he was at the meeting 10 or he somehow provided input into it, so that we had sort 11 of all of the -- all of the possible areas covered. And 12 we produced some material as well about the legal 13 options. 14 And I'm sure I also spoke to Ron Fox and 15 others. And I asked -- and I spoke to Dave Carson and 16 asked him to look into the Cemeteries Act requirements 17 for Aboriginal burial grounds. 18 Q: And with respect to Dave Carson, you 19 asked him -- why did you ask him to look into the 20 requirements of the Cemeteries Act? 21 A: Because we wanted to ensure that -- I 22 mean, it was clear that we would comply with whatever 23 those requirements were. And we'd heard that there was 24 this assertion that there was a burial ground in the 25 Park, so it just seemed like a prudent thing to do is to
251 find out what the requirements were under that 2 legislation. 3 Q: And once you knew the requirements, 4 if there was a burial ground, then it was your position 5 that you would comply with those requirements? 6 A: Yes. I think that everybody agreed 7 that we would. 8 Q: At the committee meeting? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: And the -- if I could take you to Tab 11 26 please, the first -- there's a briefing form and is 12 this -- this is Inquiry Document 1011745, and is this the 13 briefing note that you prepared, Mr. Jai? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And the handwriting on this 16 particular copy of the note which is -- I -- didn't say 17 it -- has been marked as Exhibit P-549. 18 Did -- whose handwriting is that? 19 A: That's Yan Lazor's handwriting. 20 Q: And then there's a second copy of the 21 note, Exhibit P-11 -- 1011729 that has been marked as 22 Exhibit P-39, and that's a clean copy of the same note, 23 Ms. Jai? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And attached -- and it's been marked
261 as Exhibit as P-512 and also P-639 but without the note 2 that's attached to it. 3 The -- if you go to the -- Inquiry 4 Document 1011745 and -- 5 A: That's the annotated briefing notes? 6 Q: That's the annotated briefing note. 7 The third page in there's a document, Criminal and Civil 8 Proceedings to Terminate the Occupation of Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park by the Stoney Pointers. 10 And that particular document separately, 11 has been marked as Exhibit P-634. 12 And can you tell us how this -- first of 13 all, have you seen this document before? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: This -- this was the document that 17 the legal subgroup prepared. 18 Q: Okay. And this was prepared as a 19 result of the meeting between you, Elizabeth Christie and 20 Tim McCabe? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And we've heard from Mr. Hutchison 23 that he provided input into this document for you. 24 Do you know which part of this document 25 was prepared by him?
271 A: Well, he would have written the parts 2 relating to any Criminal Code charges, so really the 3 first page and a bit. 4 Q: Okay. He -- 5 A: Although he might have had -- it was 6 probably a collaborative process in that he would have 7 drafted some of it and we would have all looked at it or 8 commented on it. But, he would have had the lead on that 9 criminal section because he was the expert in that area 10 whereas Tim and Elizabeth were the experts on the civil 11 proceedings side. 12 Q: His evidence was that he clearly 13 prepared page 1 -- the -- the subject matter of page 1. 14 What appears on page 2 and following including the 15 Provincial Parks Act; his evidence was he -- he didn't 16 think he prepared that -- that -- do you recall who dealt 17 with the issue of Provincial Parks at -- 18 A: I don't know and -- and it's possible 19 we also had input from Andrew MacDonald. And I can't 20 recall -- 21 Q: Sure. 22 A: -- for sure, but if we did Andrew, 23 although he was at AG, had been seconded from MNR, so he 24 would be the person most knowledgeable about the 25 Provincial Parks Act.
281 Q: And the purpose of this memorandum 2 was? 3 A: It was to set out the illegal options 4 and, sort of, set out the benefits or the pros and cons 5 of each of the possible legal mechanisms available to us. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: And that was partly to make sure that 8 if we went ahead with something whether it was a civil 9 injunction or charges under the Provincial Parks Act or 10 mischief charges under the Code that we -- that if we 11 made a recommendation it was on a fully informed basis. 12 So, that whatever -- I guess as any -- and 13 as any public servant's goal is to ensure that whatever 14 advice and recommendations you give to politicians that 15 you have provide in a way that they're aware of the 16 implications of what they're doing. So, you want to -- 17 to ensure that they're making as informed decisions as 18 possible. 19 And so my goal at the Interministerial 20 Meeting on September 5th had been to buy a little bit of 21 time to allow the legal subgroup to do this analysis, so 22 that we would at least be making a recommendation knowing 23 what the consequences of the various options were, rather 24 than just kind of proceeding without having done any 25 analysis of the different legal mechanisms.
291 Q: And when you look through this 2 memorandum entitled, Criminal and Civil Proceedings, I do 3 note that the pluses and minuses -- the drawbacks of a 4 course of action are pointed out in the memorandum. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I'd like to take you to page 2 7 and the last paragraph, there's a -- it reads: 8 "In the absence of facts that would 9 suggest such urgency that the delay 10 necessary to give notice would entail 11 serious and irreparable harm does not - 12 - does not appear to be a case for an 13 ex parte injunction." 14 And then the rule number is provided even 15 though the rules provide for such injunctions for a 16 period not exceeding ten (10) days. 17 And what was the conclusion of the legal 18 subgroup as to whether or not there were facts that 19 supported, on September 5th, an ex parte injunction? 20 A: Well the legal subgroup's conclusion 21 was that we did not have a good case for an ex parte 22 injunction. So, from a legal perspective, our advice was 23 to seek a regular injunction although on an expedited 24 basis. 25 Q: And I think you told us yesterday,
301 the difference between an ex parte injunction and a 2 regular injunction is that an ex parte injunction is as 3 it is now called in the rules an injunction without 4 notice. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Whereas a regular injunction requires 7 notice to be given to the responding party; in this case 8 it would be the occupiers of the -- of the Park. 9 Is that -- 10 A: Correct. Yes. 11 Q: -- correct? 12 Now, was this -- do you recall if this 13 memorandum was provided to the members of the 14 Interministerial Committee? 15 A: I believe it was but I can't say for 16 sure. I can't remember. 17 Q: But, it was prepared -- the purpose 18 of preparing it was so that the committee could be 19 informed and decision -- other decision makers could be 20 informed of the concerns? 21 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. I know it was 22 provided to our minister and I believe that we would have 23 provided it to the members of the committee, perhaps, 24 just at the next day of meeting because we were working 25 on this in the late afternoon. So I don't know that we
311 would have tried to fax it out. Like, I know we faxed 2 out the minutes as quickly as we could after the meeting 3 so that they were sent out the same day. 4 We may have just handed this out the next 5 morning at the -- 6 Q: At the meeting. 7 A: -- 9:30 a.m. meeting. 8 Q: And I wonder, Mr. Registrar, if I 9 could see Exhibit P-549 and Exhibit P-512? 10 Now, if I could take you back to the 11 beginning of Tab 26, there is a -- attached to the copy 12 of the briefing note with Mr. Lazor -- Lazor's 13 handwritten notes on it, there's a note that starts: 14 "Agreed Julie to [something] OPP." 15 A: Yes, do you want me to read you that 16 note? 17 That's Yan Lazor's notes so I think it's - 18 - it may well have been on the back of this blue note, 19 the briefing note. Sort of a, you know, a continuation 20 of his handwriting -- the side notes. Anyways it's 21 definitely Yan's writing. And -- 22 Q: And before we get to the writing, I'm 23 just trying to follow through in terms of timing. Was 24 this at a meeting on the morning of September 6th? 25 A: No. Or -- well I can only --
321 Q: And I -- if -- 2 A: I believe it would have been on the 3 morning of September the 6th that he made these notes. 4 Q: If -- before we go to those notes 5 then, if we could go to the second briefing note that's 6 in this package. It's 1011729 and it's Exhibit P-512, at 7 Tab -- still at Tab 26. It's after the green -- there 8 are two (2). 9 A: Yes. This is just another clean 10 version of the briefing note. 11 Q: And attached to it is a handwritten 12 note. 13 A: Well there's a handwritten note on 14 the next page. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: It's sort of unrelated. 17 Q: The problem is we get -- when we get 18 these documents from the -- when we got them from the 19 Province they were -- 20 A: Right. 21 Q: -- attached together as one (1) 22 document, so -- 23 A: Right, yes. It would not have been 24 attached to the briefing note. This is an un -- a note, 25 in my handwriting, that I would have made on September
331 the 6th. 2 Q: And is it -- and the note was made on 3 September 6th as best as you can recall? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And why do you say it was made on 6 September the 6th? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Well, one of the things is that in 11 the note, like, it's obviously notes of a -- it starts 12 out being notes of a conversation I had with Ron Fox. 13 Q: Yes, and can you tell us -- do you 14 recall anything with respect to the telephone call with 15 Ron Fox, independent of this note? 16 A: Well, I believe that this would have 17 been a call quite early the morning of September the 18 6th -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- because on September 6th, we -- 21 Larry Taman and I met and -- with our minister, Charles 22 Harnick, fairly early. I can't remember when, but like 23 8:30 or so, but let's say approximately. 24 And this was probably before that meeting 25 that I would have just double checked with Ron to see if
341 there was any, you know, updates or late breaking stuff, 2 because I wanted to make sure that when we met with the 3 minister, that I had the latest information. 4 So, this, I believe, would have been a 5 phone that I had with Ron before briefing the minister 6 and that briefing must have occurred quite early because 7 it was before the Interministerial meeting which started 8 at 9:30. 9 Q: Okay. So, could you tell us -- do 10 you remember anything about the telephone call, 11 independent of the note? 12 A: No, just that I had the call with Ron 13 in order to update myself -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- before meeting with the Minister. 16 Q: Using the note that -- that is part 17 of Exhibit P-512, Inquiry Document 1011729, can you tell 18 us about the telephone call based on your note? 19 A: Well, Ron relayed to me that they -- 20 there had been a spokesperson identified; that's be -- 21 being Burt Manning, because that's one of the things 22 we've always -- we're always trying to find out is who 23 is the spokesperson, because that really facilitates 24 communication. 25 And then he said that they still haven't
351 indicated what their demands are, but -- other than 2 saying that the Park is their land. 3 Q: And I note beside the entry "Burt 4 Manning" there's, in brackets, "brother of Rose Manning." 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And did you subsequently learn that 7 that was incorrect? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that Burt Manning is Rose 10 Manning's son? 11 A: I can't remember if I learnt that he 12 was the son, but I did learn that it was incorrect. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So -- but this was what Ron told me, 15 so -- 16 Q: Sure. 17 A: -- I was just making a note that I 18 believed that it was correct, because Ron told me. 19 Q: Sure, sure. 20 A: So, he said that they -- that Burt 21 Manning had just said that the park is their land and 22 also said that it was a burial ground. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And Ron also said that there was no 25 captured OPP cruiser, because I think it had come up at
361 the Interministerial meeting the day before that the 2 occupiers had an OPP cruiser. 3 So, Ron's saying that that information, 4 which I believe had come from MNR, was not accurate. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And then Ron indicated that the OPP 7 still feel that there are between thirty-five (35) and 8 forty (40) people spread throughout the Park. Although, 9 he noted -- there's a complete -- completely fluid 10 movement between the Army Base and the Park. 11 Q: Your note says, "Can't control 12 access." 13 A: "Can't control access between the 14 base and the Park." 15 Q: And before we go on, there's a note: 16 "Seven (7) people on scene", 17 And then it's struck out. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: What did that refer to? 20 A: I think that he -- like, he had sort 21 of mentioned at one point that seven (7) people had been 22 seen that morning or something, but then indicated that 23 actually the OPP feel that there are really thirty-five 24 (35) to forty (40). It's just that at a certain point 25 they could see seven (7) but that wasn't, in Ron's view,
371 indicative of the actual number. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And then Ron goes on to say that Tom 4 Bressette has told the media that he and the council, 5 like the Band council, do not support the Stoney Pointers 6 and then that John Carson spoke to him in detail. I 7 think that's to -- to Tom Bressette. 8 And then this says that he doesn't support 9 group, I think is just Tom Bressette again saying that he 10 doesn't support the Stoney Pointers. 11 And then John did not make any comment 12 about the burial grounds to Tom Bressette. I think 13 that's what that comment means. I mean he didn't ask him 14 about them or, you know, say that -- that the occupiers 15 were saying that there was a burial ground. 16 Q: Okay. Do you remember or that's what 17 you're -- 18 A: That's what I'm surmising from these 19 notes which is -- with this -- at this point is third- 20 hand because I'm relaying something that Ron told me that 21 he heard John tell him. 22 Q: We appreciate that. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: That's happened before. 25 A: Right. Okay. So, then John --
381 sorry, Ron is now going on to tell me that three (3) 2 people were identified with respect to the incidents of 3 minor damage and assault. 4 So, arrest warrants were issued, and that 5 overnight a fire started on the road, and that John 6 Carson has been working on setting up a meeting with the 7 group, and that would be the occupiers today; that would 8 be September the 6th at noon, and that this group is less 9 organized than the group that took over the -- the Camp, 10 that's the Army Base. Less controlled and greater 11 consumption of alcohol. 12 Q: Okay. And then the note at the 13 bottom of the page appears to be a separate note? 14 A: Yes, that's a note from Larry Taman. 15 So from a quick discussion with Larry that I probably had 16 just prior to going in to brief the Minister. 17 Q: Okay. Perhaps we'll just stop there 18 for the moment. On the morning of September the 6th from 19 what you've testified you had prepared the Minister's 20 briefing form that we've seen as Exhibit P-549 and 21 Exhibit P-512 and that briefing note was -- did you 22 review that briefing note with Mr. Lazar -- Lazor on 23 September 5th or on the morning of September the 6th? 24 A: I reviewed it with Yan on September 25 the 5th.
391 Q: And did Mr. Lazor make his notes on 2 the copy that's been marked Exhibit P-549 on September 3 the 5th, do you know? 4 A: I can't recall when he made those 5 notes and I don't know if I saw him make those notes. 6 Q: Okay. And -- 7 A: So I don't know when he would -- 8 would have made them. 9 Q: And the -- the discussion -- as a 10 result of the discussion that you had with Mr. Lazor did 11 you make any changes to the briefing note? 12 A: It's possible that he suggested minor 13 editing changes to the note but I -- if so, I can't 14 remember what they are but they would be incorporated in 15 the final version that you see. 16 Q: And the note sets out at the bottom, 17 the summary of advice and the advice of the legal group - 18 - subgroup was to seek a civil injunction? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, the -- and that was the 21 consensus reached by the Interministerial Committee on 22 September the 5th as well? 23 A: More or less. I mean subject to more 24 analysis being done -- 25 Q: Sure.
401 A: -- by the legal subgroup but, yes. 2 Q: And it goes on to say: 3 "The injunction could be sought either 4 on an emergency ex parte basis or an 5 interim [less urgent basis]. An 6 interim injunction could take a week to 7 be heard but we'll provide time to 8 communicate with the group to find out 9 what they want and time for the 10 Province to show that it has taken all 11 reasonable steps to persuade them to 12 leave. 13 Chances of success would be higher with 14 an interim injunction. The delay could 15 make it more difficult to remove the 16 occupiers." 17 And this advice in this particular 18 document, the briefing note from Mr. -- from your 19 subgroup to Mr. Harnick, does not recommend -- make a 20 recommendation one way or the other with respect to an ex 21 parte or an injunction with notice, is that -- 22 A: Yes, that's true. In the written 23 note, it just sets out the options, but in our oral 24 briefing we did recommend seeking a normal injunction. 25 Q: Okay. And then as a result of -- on
411 the morning of -- when did you meet with Larry Taman? 2 A: I met with him just before going over 3 to meet with the minister -- 4 Q: And -- 5 A: So I did have a few minutes with 6 Larry before meeting with the Minister. 7 Q: And did Yan Lazor attend at that 8 meeting? 9 A: No, he did not. 10 Q: And the note that appears at the 11 second -- it's attached to Exhibit P-549. 12 "Agreed [arrow], Julie to [something] 13 OPP Fox." 14 Do you know when this note was made by Mr. 15 Lazor? 16 A: Well, I believe it would have been 17 the morning of September the 6th. Can I just read 18 through that and I'll -- 19 Q: Yes, please. 20 A: -- explain why I think it was the -- 21 Q: Sure. 22 A: -- morning of September the 6th. So 23 this is Yan's writing and he says: 24 "Agreed. Julie to call OPP Fox." 25 That's Ron Fox.
421 "We want to support them." 2 "Them" being the OPP. 3 "Let's get more facts. Concern is 4 safety. We don't want to get anyone 5 injured over this. If no one is at 6 risk at this time, nor any urgency." 7 Q: Nor urgency, it says. 8 A: Nor urgency. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And then: 11 "Re. Media, not AG. Local policing 12 instead." 13 So that suggests that the local OPP should 14 be the media spokespersons not the ministry of the 15 Attorney General. And then: 16 "Larry wants to speak to Elaine Todres 17 and Ron Fox." 18 So that's Larry Taman, the deputy. 19 "This is a law enforcement matter. If 20 police want to lay charges, they can." 21 And then it says: 22 "Julie and Larry went over to the 23 legislature to brief the minister." 24 So that suggests that it was the morning 25 of September the 6th that he made this note because he's
431 describing something that we've just done, which is gone 2 over to the legislature. 3 Q: And when you met with Yan Lazor, did 4 you tell him that -- if you go back to page 1 of the 5 annotated copy. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: That the -- 8 A: We did -- 9 Q: That -- 10 A: We told him that the recommendation 11 of the legal subgroup was not to go for an ex parte 12 injunction. And if you read Rhianne's (phonetic) 13 marginal notes, it -- it indicates that we did tell him 14 that, because on the very bottom of the page, the 15 marginal note, it says: 16 "Tim: No case for ex parte because no 17 urgency." 18 And -- 19 Q: And -- 20 A: That would be a reference to Tim 21 McCabe who was -- was a very well-respected person, the 22 lawyer, the senior civil lawyer who we considered the 23 expert on this and I'm saying to Yan, Well, Tim says that 24 there's no case for an ex parte injunction. 25 And so Yan has written that down,
441 basically accepting that as, you know, the word -- the 2 recommendation of the legal subgroup, because we all 3 agreed with Tim knowing he had the most expertise in 4 this. 5 Q: And did Tim attend at the meeting 6 with Yan Lazor? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And when you discussed the 9 briefing note with Yan Lazor in September, the afternoon 10 of September 5th, and the conclusions of the legal 11 subgroup, did these marginal notes assist you in telling 12 us what was discussed at the meeting? 13 Were these items that you recall 14 discussing with him at your meeting with Yan Lazor? 15 A: It would appear that these were notes 16 that Yan made when I was meeting with him and briefing 17 him. 18 Q: And can you tell us what you said to 19 him as part of your briefing on September the 5th? 20 A: Well, I think that basically what is 21 in the note as well as, you know, some of the things that 22 he has made marginal notes of, the fact that we don't 23 have enough information; we don't know enough facts; that 24 there are several options. 25 One is just, sort of, do nothing. That's
451 where -- in the marginal note he has "Option 1". I think 2 it says "leave it alone". 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: 2 is "civil injunction", and 3 is 5 "criminal law". 6 So, those are the three (3) options gener 7 -- in a very global basis that I discussed with him that 8 are -- also outlined in more detail in the attachment to 9 the note. 10 Q: And then there's a note: 11 "Don't know enough facts." 12 A: Yes. Yeah. 13 Q: And then a note "OPP"; and I can't 14 read that. 15 A: Oh: 16 "OPP [I think it says] cautious and 17 moderate". 18 Q: And do you recall discussing that 19 with Yan Lazor on -- 20 A: Yes. Yeah I would have given him the 21 OPP's assessment of it. And I think Yan having been the 22 previous chair of the Interministerial Committee, you 23 know -- and I think Yan had also worked quite closely 24 with the OPP in one of his careers, I can't remember 25 which.
461 But, you know, he had a lot of respect for 2 the views of the OPP. So, when I told him what Ron Fox's 3 view was and what the OPP felt, that was something he 4 felt was very significant that we should rely on their 5 judgement. So I mean -- 6 Q: And what -- and can you recall today 7 what you told him Ron Fox's view and the OPP's view was? 8 A: That I -- I would have told Yan that 9 it was -- that they'd considered that it was not a major 10 risk to public safety. That it was a peaceful occupation 11 of a park that had been closed for the season. 12 Q: And then at the top of the page, 13 there's a note, "Issue". 14 Can you just tell us what that says from 15 your knowledge of Mr. Lazor's handwriting? 16 And then tell us if you discussed it with 17 him on the afternoon of September the 5th? 18 A: Well his note just says, "Issue'. 19 And then under that it says: 20 "1. Other ministries. 21 2. When. 22 [and] 3. Success." 23 I think these are just kind of thoughts 24 that he had as he was listening to me. 25 Q: And on the morning of September the
471 6th, you went and met with Larry Taman? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you meet at 720 Bay Street? 4 A: We may have just met -- I can't 5 remember if we met at the ONAS offices or if we met at 6 the Legislature where we were going to be meeting -- 7 Q: Oh, you're going to the Legislature. 8 A: We went to the legislative building 9 to brief our minister. So, I don't know if we met at my 10 office or over at the Legislature. 11 But, we met before meeting with our 12 minister so that I could personally brief Larry before he 13 went into the meeting with the Minister on everything 14 that had happened so far, and on the legal options, 15 specifically. 16 Q: And can you tell us what you told Mr. 17 Taman? 18 A: Well, I told Larry that the legal 19 subgroup had met and that we felt that in terms of an 20 injunction, if we were going to seek an injunction, that 21 it was not a case for an ex parte injunction since it was 22 -- really, there was no particular urgency. 23 I also told him that the OPP wanted us to 24 get an injunction. So, that was one of the reasons why 25 the committee and the legal subgroup had recommended
481 going with an injunction. 2 I probably told him about the tensions 3 within the Interministerial group and the fact that some 4 people wanted us to act more -- on a more urgent basis, 5 but that the OPP view was that we should proceed quite 6 cautiously. 7 Q: Yes. And do you recall anything else 8 of the conversation with Mr. Taman? 9 A: Well, Larry agreed with me that it 10 was not a case for an ex parte injunction. 11 Q: And there's -- the notes on the 12 bottom of the -- your handwritten note that -- it appears 13 as part of Exhibit P-512. It's after the green divider 14 at Tab 26, Inquiry Document 1011729. 15 A: Yes. You mean on the same page as my 16 notes from Ron Fox, at the very bottom -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- there's notes from a discussion 19 with Larry Taman? 20 Q: And when were those made? 21 Was it part of the discussion the morning 22 of September the 6th or do you know? 23 A: Yes, I believe it was -- it was from 24 our meeting prior to going in and talking to the 25 Minister.
491 Q: And can you tell us what this note 2 says? 3 A: Yes, this is, sort of, some of 4 Larry's input, like his -- his views. So he said -- 5 Larry -- Larry said: 6 "Test is public safety. Is anything 7 worth someone getting hurt over?" 8 And then he says: 9 "Could be a useful test re. precipitous 10 action." 11 Q: And what does that refer to? Do you 12 have any recollection today? 13 A: I -- I really don't know what he 14 means by that. I don't have a recollection today of 15 that. 16 Then he says: 17 "Continue to give OPP the lead. Let 18 them use their discretion. We want to 19 do what would support the OPP." 20 Then he says again: 21 "Feels there's nothing here worth 22 risking safety." 23 And then he says: 24 "If an injunction would be useful, 25 we're willing to proceed."
501 And unfortunately the bottom -- oh, and 2 mine is cut off, but I see it's -- I can see it on the 3 screen: 4 "Doesn't feel anything immediate is 5 required." 6 That's the very last line. And then on 7 the side here there's that note: 8 "Larry Taman would like to speak to Ron 9 [that's Ron Vrancourt, the Deputy at 10 MNR] and Elaine Todres [who's the 11 Deputy Solicitor General]." 12 Q: And then there's something after that 13 -- after -- if you look on the screen, "Elaine..." 14 A: Oh. "Elaine..." I -- I can't read 15 it. 16 Q: Would it be, "together?" 17 A: I -- I can't read it, sorry. 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. 19 A: It's just too -- too blurry. 20 Q: And then on the left-hand side 21 there's -- is this still part of the same -- 22 A: Yes, it's still part of the 23 discussion with Larry. I've obviously run out of -- 24 Q: Paper. 25 A: -- paper, and I'm just writing in the
511 very bottom. So, it's regarding the injunction. He 2 says: 3 "Is the AG just..." 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Should I continue? 8 Q: Yes, please. 9 A: Okay. On the left-hand, that tiny 10 print: 11 "Re. The injunction. Is the AG just 12 the client or do they have a separate 13 duty to uphold the law?" 14 This is an issue that is debated at length 15 internally within government. It's kind of the role of 16 the Attorney General, whether in some situations -- like 17 does the Attorney General just kind of like a hired 18 lawyer like you would hire someone in the private sector 19 and they would just do the client's bidding or does the 20 AG have an independent duty to uphold the law and to, in 21 some cases, you know, take a different position from the 22 client's position? 23 So, Larry is kind of musing about whether 24 this is a situation where the Attorney General is perhaps 25 more than just the client and has a separate duty to
521 uphold the law and ensure that what we view as the most 2 legally correct approach is followed. 3 And then Larry -- then -- then it says: 4 "Larry Taman wants us to be a council." 5 Q: And what's that refer to? 6 A: It suggests that he feels that in 7 this case we should just do what the client wants. So, 8 that after his initial musing about if the AG has a 9 separate duty he's -- he's also saying kind of well, 10 maybe this isn't a case where the AG should take the lead 11 and say regardless of what the client wants to do, you 12 know, we should do -- we want you -- we want you to do 13 'X'. 14 That's what it suggests to me. I don't 15 actually recall having a discussion on that point with 16 him so I don't know what he... 17 Q: And the client would be? 18 A: Well, it would be MNR because they're 19 the landowner, so they would be the ones requesting the 20 injunction. 21 Q: And perhaps we could -- I note on 22 Exhibit P-512 it's not quite as cut off as much as on the 23 document in the document brief so perhaps -- 24 A: Okay. Thanks. 25 Q: It's cut off but not quite as cut
531 off. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And then there's a -- there's a line 4 and, "our view"? 5 A: Yes. 6 "Our view is that this is a law 7 enforcement [matter, I think]." 8 It says manner but I think he means 9 "matter". 10 "That it's up to -- up to the police." 11 And then it says, "to law", but it's 12 perhaps continues and is cut off. 13 I can't -- but, the gist of it is that he 14 wants this to be viewed as a law enforcement matter not 15 an AG matter and that it's up to the police to, you know, 16 enforce the law or whatever. 17 Q: Okay. And -- 18 A: It seems to be cut off. 19 Q: And then as a result of this meeting, 20 what was the recommendation that you and Mr. Taman were 21 going to make to Mr. Harnick? 22 A: We made the recommendation that an 23 injunction in the normal course be sought, not an ex 24 parte injunction. 25 Q: And when you -- when you went to the
541 meeting with Mr. Harnick, the meeting was at the 2 legislative building? 3 A: Yes, it was. 4 Q: And at -- where at the legislative 5 building? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Did -- in an -- did Mr. Harnick have 10 a legislative office at Queen's Park as well as -- 11 A: He did have an -- 12 Q: -- at -- 13 A: -- office, but we may have -- I 14 believe we just met him in this, sort of, anteroom which 15 is a side room outside the cabinet meeting room. 16 Q: Okay. And who -- was there anyone 17 else present beside Mr. Harnick? 18 Was Mr. Moran there? 19 A: I believe there was someone else 20 there, but I can't say -- I can't recall who. 21 Q: And with respect to the meeting with 22 Mr. Harnick, can you tell us today what material, if any, 23 you gave to Mr. Harnick? 24 A: I gave him -- well, he would have 25 already had that briefing note, the note we call the blue
551 note, and the attachments. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: We didn't give him anything else. 4 Q: And when you say the briefing note 5 and attachments, can you help us with what was attached 6 to the briefing note given to Mr. Harnick? 7 At -- the first briefing note at Tab 26, 8 Exhibit P-549, Inquiry document 1011745 has attached to 9 it, in addition to the note of Mr. Lazor, a map of the 10 area and then the memorandum prepared by the subgroup -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- entitled, Criminal and Civil 13 Proceedings. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: So, all of those things were 17 provided. The one page briefing note, the map and the 18 three (3) page memo about the criminal and civil 19 proceedings. 20 Q: And that was provided to Mr. 21 Harnick's office on September the 5th? 22 A: Yes, but I -- we probably brought a 23 copy as well to the meeting, because it was quite late in 24 the day on September the 5th by the time we got the 25 material together and we were meeting with him early the
561 next morning, so... 2 Q: And do you -- and when the material 3 was finished on September the 5th, do you recall how the 4 material was sent to Mr. Harnick's office and to which 5 office it was sent? 6 A: No, I don't recall; that would have 7 been an administrative detail that my secretary would 8 have taken care of. 9 Q: And when you met with Mr. Harnick on 10 the morning of September 6th, do you recall if Mr. 11 Harnick indicated that he had read the briefing -- 12 briefing note? 13 A: I'm just trying to remember. I can't 14 actually -- I mean, I think he said that he had, but I 15 can't say 100 percent. He did seem to be familiar with 16 the material. 17 Q: Okay. And so can you tell us what 18 happened at this meeting; what you and Mr. Taman told the 19 minister; what the minister said to you? 20 A: What I remember is that we did rec -- 21 we did explain the OPP's views that they wanted a civil 22 injunction and that they felt that it wasn't a serious 23 risk, and that they preferred a cautious approach. But 24 that, you know, with the civil injunction it would give 25 them the tool that they could use if they need to remove
571 people from the Park. 2 We, kind of, briefed him on some of the 3 facts, the limited facts that we knew about the Park -- 4 the occupation and indicated that there weren't -- as far 5 as we knew, we had good title to the Park; that that was 6 our view. 7 And that we would have told him that the 8 First Nation was not supportive of the occupation. That 9 this was a -- a splinter group from the -- from the First 10 Nation that was occupying it. 11 But, that basically we still didn't have 12 very much information from the occupiers about why they 13 were occupying the Park or what their specific concerns 14 or grievances were. 15 Q: And do -- did you say anything to him 16 about the burial ground issue? 17 A: I'm actually looking right now -- I 18 should mention that I -- I did make notes for this 19 briefing, so it would -- probably be useful. I -- I'm 20 looking at Tab 24 which is Inquiry Document 1011733. 21 Q: So, these are your notes at -- 22 Inquiry Document 1011733, is a fax dated September 5th, 23 1995 from you to Elizabeth Christie and I note, "Final 24 version of note, Julie, 6:20". 25 A: Yeah. That -- that fax cover sheet
581 does not go with this next page. I -- what I would have 2 sent to Elizabeth was that -- that blue note -- that 3 briefing note for the Minister. 4 So, somehow this fax cover sheet has 5 gotten attached to a handwritten note that I had made, 6 you know, around the same time, the evening of September 7 the 5th. 8 But, this handwritten note which is 9 attached to that for the purposes of these Inquiry 10 document numbering systems is -- is in fact a note that I 11 -- notes that I made in order to brief Minister Harnick. 12 Anyways, I mean, separate from my notes 13 because I don't want to do -- I do want to just talk 14 about what I remember from the briefing before we 15 actually look at the notes. 16 But, we did brief the Minister about, you 17 know, the facts that we knew and then the fact that we 18 really only had limited information, that we felt we 19 didn't have enough information. 20 The fact that the OPP wanted to take a 21 cautious approach and that our recommendation as law 22 officers of the Crown, that would be Larry and I and the 23 -- the legal subgroup, was that we seek an injunction in 24 the normal course, although trying to get it heard as 25 quickly as possible but not seek an ex parte injunction,
591 because this was the type of situation where, in fact, it 2 would be desirable to give the occupiers notice. 3 I mean, what we're trying to build is some 4 sort of dialogue or communication with them so that there 5 was -- you know, going ex parte would be kind of counter 6 to that goal. And -- and we didn't think we would win. 7 So I mean, this was our best legal advice 8 and that Minister Harnick agreed with us after hearing 9 this briefing that we should seek an injunction in the 10 normal course rather an ex parte injunction. 11 And basically continue to try to gather 12 information from the group and you know, proceed 13 cautiously but, you know, with a -- you know, very 14 attentively try to monitor the situation and trusting the 15 OPP. 16 Q: Okay. And trusting the OPP in what 17 way? 18 A: To use their discretion 19 appropriately. Like, to charge people if there were, you 20 know, specific incidents where property was damaged or 21 you know, there was anything that was the subject of a 22 criminal charge. But, to basically leave -- leave it as 23 much in their hands, not to interfere in any way. 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall anything 25 else before we look at the note?
601 A: Just that the minister was quite -- 2 like seemed quite reasonable. Like he was quite 3 receptive to what Larry and I were saying and he agreed 4 to everything that we proposed. 5 Q: Okay. And perhaps before we turn to 6 the note, we'll take a short break. It's an hour -- a 7 little over an hour has gone by. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. Are 9 you okay? 10 THE WITNESS: I'm fine. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 12 break now. Short break right? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Maybe ten (10) 14 minutes. A short break, yes. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 10:03 a.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 10:15 a.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: So, if we could now turn to your 25 notes for briefing, September 6th, of Minister Harnick
611 and I would ask that this one page, actually, be marked 2 as the next Exhibit, please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-651, Your Honour. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-651: Document Number 1011733. 7 Julie Jai's Handwritten notes 8 re. Notes for briefing 9 minister Harnick, Sept 10 06/'95. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And when did you make these notes up, 14 Ms. Jai? 15 A: Probably very early the morning of 16 September the 6th, is -- is the mike working? Okay, now 17 it is. 18 Q: Thank you. 19 A: Okay. So I'm -- would have made them 20 up very early the morning of September the 6th. 21 Q: Yes. And can you tell us which of 22 these notes or what part of the notes you used when you - 23 - for the briefing for the minister? I take it you 24 spoke, as well as Mr. Taman? 25 A: Yes, I would say that I spoke more
621 than Larry because I was the one that was most familiar 2 with this, and I had actually, you know, only just 3 briefed Larry on it, so he was only getting the 4 information sort of second hand from me. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: So I did most of the speaking at the 7 briefing. And I believe I covered most of this but not - 8 - not every single word. I mean, that's kind of the way 9 it goes in briefings. 10 Q: Sure. 11 A: So -- so I can't -- I cannot remember 12 which parts I didn't cover. All I can say is that I 13 would have covered most of the key points that were in 14 these handwritten notes. 15 Q: For example the group size, 16 fluctuating size? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Ten (10) to forty (40) people 19 including women and children? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Yeah. Do you want me to just -- 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: -- go through the notes? 25 Q: Yes, please.
631 A: Okay. I would have started with the 2 background, the keys facts, which as you say is that the 3 group has a fluctuating size between ten (10) and forty 4 (40) people including women and children; that it was a 5 peaceful, non-violent occupation. 6 There were no visible weapons. The park 7 is closed. There's no immediate public safety risk. 8 There are no outstanding lawsuits or land claims in the 9 Park as far as we know relating to the Park; that the 10 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation does not support the 11 occupation. 12 That the Township of Bosanquet is worried 13 and that they've issued a press release and may seek an 14 injunction regarding Matheson Road, which is currently 15 blocked, and that they are pressuring the province to 16 take action. 17 That there is no identified leader or 18 spokesperson yet from the occupying group and we have 19 very little information as to why they are occupying the 20 Park, although they claim that there is a sacred burial 21 ground there. 22 The OPP is trying to gather information 23 and that Larry -- Larry Taman had already met with the 24 Solicitor General and the deputy Solicitor General and 25 that they want to go slow, like proceed slowly.
641 Q: And just stopping there. Did Larry - 2 - was that a note that was part of your notes? Was that 3 something that Larry Taman had said to the minister at 4 the meeting? 5 A: It's probably something that Larry 6 said at this point in the briefing and I just added it 7 in. 8 Q: Okay. And so he told the minister 9 that he had met with the Solicitor General, Mr. 10 Runciman -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And the deputy Solicitor General, Ms. 13 Todres? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the message to Mr. Harnick was, 16 they want to go slow? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did he add anything -- do you recall 19 if there was anything more to it than that? 20 A: I don't recall what else he said. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Then I talk about the considerations 23 that -- and I'm sure I mentioned that we'd had the 24 Interministerial Committee meeting at which, you know, 25 there were a variety of people there from all the
651 affected areas and that we all agree that the goal is to 2 remove the occupiers, but the issue is how best to do 3 this, keeping in mind, first, the sort of precedential 4 value of any actions that we take. The -- 5 Q: And did you -- what did you -- what 6 were you -- did you mean by that? 7 A: Well, it's similar in some ways to 8 the next point. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Maybe I'll just continue -- 11 Q: Sure. 12 A: -- because it -- 13 Q: Thank you. I'm sorry. 14 A: -- repeats itself. So then I also 15 talk about the symbolic value, like that some people are 16 concerned that -- and this was kind of the political 17 staff at the Interministerial Committee Meeting said 18 that, you know, it would be a test of Ontario's reaction 19 to Aboriginal emergencies and then I have written in 20 there, views of Premier. 21 In other words that I would have explained 22 at that point that according to Deb Hutton the Premier 23 wanted to take a -- a very aggressive approach. 24 And then public safety is another 25 consideration. And then this concern that perhaps
661 publicity or confrontation could be what they want. 2 Q: "They" being the...? 3 A: "They" being the occupiers. And then 4 related to that is -- there's -- another consideration is 5 the desire to support the moderate groups, including the 6 First Nation and not, quote, "to reward illegal acts" or, 7 quote, "recognize dissidents." 8 And that -- noting that this a clear case 9 basic there's clearly valid Ontario title based on our 10 research. 11 And then I talk about the injunction or 12 other legal actions and the need to establish a strong 13 case for whatever legal action we decide to take. 14 For example for an injunction you have to 15 meet the irreparable harm test and we wanted -- we need 16 to demonstrate that we've taken reasonable steps to 17 persuade them to leave. In other words we want to win 18 the case, like if we apply for an injunction not 19 establish negative legal precedence. 20 So that goes back to the earlier point you 21 were asking me about precedential value. I guess as a 22 lawyer one of our concerns was we didn't want to apply 23 for an injunction, for example, ex parte and not get the 24 injunction because that would establish a negative 25 precedent that would really tie our hands and make it
671 more difficult to deal not only with this emergency but 2 with future Aboriginal emergencies. 3 Q: Then, how it could unfold? What did 4 that refer to? 5 A: It sort of talks about what could 6 happen and so how it could unfold is that there could be 7 voluntary exit. Like the occupiers could leave; the 8 protest could just peter out or there could be some sort 9 of OPP action and removal which could be either, you 10 know, based on enforcing the injunction or criminal 11 charges. 12 And then the last line is cut off. 13 Q: Perhaps we can move -- 14 A: Is it cut off on everyone's? 15 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, it is. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. The -- the only 17 thing I can read in that is, "confrontation;" that that 18 would be another way -- that would be another possible 19 outcome depending on what action was taken with some type 20 of confrontation. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Okay. And can you recall anything 24 else today about the meeting? 25 A: I think I've described everything
681 about the meeting in terms of, you know, that we had the 2 meeting for -- fairly briefly, maybe ten (10) minutes 3 with our Minister; that would be just a rough estimate. 4 And that when we left him he was onside and supportive of 5 what our recommendation was and the immediate -- I guess 6 the purposes of the briefing were two-fold. 7 1, was to brief him on what the situation 8 was and the second was to actually get direction from him 9 to proceed with the injunction. 10 So, we felt that we had done that, that we 11 had briefed him on the situation and we had his authority 12 to go ahead and seek a civil injunction in -- in the 13 normal way. 14 Q: And did you require a note or a memo 15 of some sort from the Minister to proceed or -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- once the Minister gave you 18 instructions you could proceed? 19 A: Yes, once he gives his instructions 20 verbally that's sufficient. 21 Q: And it was your understanding that 22 you had instructions to proceed to get a civil injunction 23 in the ordinary course? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And by that I mean not an ex parte?
691 A: Correct. 2 Q: And then -- in your experience was it 3 out of the ordinary for you to brief the Minister as you 4 did on the morning of September the 6th? 5 A: It's -- I mean -- it was unusual. 6 It's not that I would never have briefed the minister 7 because there would be briefings set up on specific 8 issues. But usually planned in advance, you know, that 9 maybe I would brief him on, you know, a big land claim 10 issue or some legal case that we were involved in. 11 But to have a meeting the next day, you 12 know, to sort of call his office and say, look we have to 13 have a meeting tomorrow morning at 8:30 was unusual to 14 have that sort of urgency. 15 Q: And it -- is it fair to say that it 16 arose out of the facts as to what was happening down at 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 18 A: Yes. Yes. 19 Q: And who instructed -- gave the 20 instructions with respect to the injunction, Mr. Taman or 21 did you contact the ministry representatives, Ms. 22 Christie or Mr. McCabe? 23 A: I believe I would have contacted 24 them. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall doing that?
701 A: Well I'm not sure if -- if they were 2 not at the meeting which I was then going immediately to 3 the meeting at 9:30 of the Interministerial Committee. 4 So I -- I may have simply told them at that meeting. 5 Q: So that once you left the briefing 6 with the minister, you then proceeded to the 7 Interministerial meeting that was scheduled for 9:30 on-- 8 A: September 6th. 9 Q: -- on September 6th? 10 A: Yes. I mean I may have had a few 11 moments in my office in between. 12 Q: And as with yesterday, can you tell 13 us without a reference to your notes at Tab 31, Exhibit 14 P-536, Inquiry Document 1012579, what you remember about 15 the meeting? 16 A: Well I believe that -- I mean, I 17 remember the same things in that there was a lot of 18 tension between participants at the meeting and differing 19 views as to the urgency with which we had to proceed. 20 But I went into the meeting feeling a bit 21 more comfortable in that I had at least just met with my 22 minister and had his clear direction which is always 23 helpful because otherwise you're kind of a bit out on a 24 limb. So, I did have that satisfaction of having at 25 least a sense of clear guidance going into the meeting on
711 the injunction part. 2 And knowing that that was something that 3 we had, as a legal subgroup, taken the time to do some 4 research into and that what we considered the best course 5 of action was what the minister was authorizing. 6 Q: Okay. And then with respect to the 7 meeting, beyond that can you tell us anything without 8 referring to your notes? I know this is hard. What I'm 9 trying to get you to tell us is as much as you can 10 without -- before we go to your notes. 11 A: Hmm hmm. Just that Deb Hutton was at 12 the meeting and was again extremely forceful and was a 13 very, kind of, major presence. Somebody who, when she 14 walked into the meeting, you could really feel that she 15 was there, you know, sort of very, very assertive and 16 very assertive in her views. 17 Q: And as a result of the meeting -- 18 what was the result of the meeting as you recall it 19 today? 20 A: Well the result of the meeting was 21 that I was able to inform them that we had met with our 22 minister and that we were going to proceed with a -- an 23 injunction in the normal course. But, that -- like 24 Elizabeth Christie and Tim McCabe had been doing kind of 25 research on this so they felt that they could get before
721 a judge very quickly. 2 I think they were saying by Friday, and 3 this meeting was on a Wednesday, so that would be in two 4 (2) days. So that even -- that they would still be able 5 to serve but have sort of an abridged notice period. 6 So we discussed, you know, some of those 7 issues around like the -- the legal mechanics and that it 8 was agreed that we would proceed in this way and then 9 there was a lot of, kind of, information sharing and 10 discussion about the actual, you know, events that were 11 unfolding. 12 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to 13 your handwritten notes at Tab 31, please. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And the first page is a handwritten 18 agenda and these are, again, just to confirm, your notes 19 of the meeting of September 6th? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And is this an agenda that you 22 prepared? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it's fairly self-explanatory. 25 The -- I take it there was no typed agenda for the
731 meeting because of the shortness of time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the reference, "press coverage, 4 Sergeant Babbitt interview"; what does that refer to? 5 A: I think that these were notes that I 6 made before going into the meeting. 7 Q: Okay, yes. 8 A: So, that these were just things I 9 wanted to cover, so I just had made a note that when we 10 get to the topic of press coverage that something I 11 wanted to mention was this interview that Sergeant 12 Babbitt had given. 13 Q: And what -- had -- by this time you 14 knew that Sergeant Babbitt had given an interview? 15 A: I must have. I mean, I have no 16 recollection of that. 17 Q: And do you have any recollection of 18 what your concern was about Sergeant Babbitt giving an 19 interview? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay, yes. And then under, "next 22 steps," there's a -- some handwritten notes. 23 Were they made before the meeting? 24 A: The handwritten notes say: 25 "Local person to diffuse tension -
741 local MPP spokesperson on the ground - 2 OPP." 3 And then, "ministers." I can't say if 4 those were made before or after the meeting. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: But I would guess before rather than 7 after. 8 Q: And why do you say that? 9 A: Because what we actually decided was 10 not what is written here. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: So that suggests that I wrote this 13 before. 14 Q: As -- 15 A: Because, for example, we felt that 16 the local MPP was not the appropriate person to diffuse 17 tension. 18 Q: At the meeting, you decided -- 19 A: At the meeting, yeah. 20 Q: And then on this page there's a note, 21 "AG direction?" 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: And so that's -- those are -- you 25 see, I had come from the briefing with my minister, so
751 these were notes that I also made before the meeting, 2 that I just wanted to make sure that we covered off; that 3 the direction I had from my minister is that public 4 safety was key, that we would support the OPP, that we 5 would apply for a civil injunction as soon as possible 6 and that we would leave Criminal Code charges up to 7 police discretion as a law enforcement and public safety 8 matter. 9 Q: And to the left of that note there's 10 a line and "agreed?" 11 A: Yes. So that -- the "agreed" I would 12 have written after the meeting, but these were notes of 13 things that I wanted to make sure that I brought to the 14 meeting and that, you know, I wanted to make sure that I 15 got consensus around that, since that was what our 16 minister's direction was. 17 Q: And then -- 18 A: And similarly the little check marks 19 that are next to the agenda items I would have made like 20 during or after the meeting as we covered off those 21 items. 22 Q: Okay. And I note that one of the -- 23 what is the significance of the "agreed" beside the AG 24 direction? 25 A: Well, that's significant because, as
761 I said, there were differing views among committee 2 members, so one of the challenges of chairing these 3 committee meetings was to try to bring about consensus. 4 So I wanted to make sure, coming out of 5 the meeting, that people understood and agreed with the 6 direction that we had from our minister. 7 Q: And coming out of the meeting, if -- 8 you said you put the "agreed" afterwards. It was your 9 understanding of the meeting that the consensus was that 10 they agreed with the instructions you had -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- received from the Minister? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that included applying for a 15 civil -- civil injunction as soon as possible but not an 16 ex parte injunction? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. And if we could then go -- 19 now, I note that there's no check mark on that page 20 beside either, "next steps" or "other matters burial 21 ground?" 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: Does that have any significance 24 because we know that in the -- when you look at the 25 minutes there are next steps discussed but what about,
771 "other matters burial ground?" 2 A: It's hard to say. These were the 3 last two (2) items. Perhaps I didn't -- I just didn't 4 have time to check them off -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- during the meeting. 7 Q: So, if we could go to your note, 8 excuse me, the first page of your notes? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Item number 1 in the top and there's 11 a heading, Updates re. The Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And were there updates by a number of 14 people? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And was the first update Ron Fox? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the first bullet point is: 19 "Interviews -- Interim Spokesman -- 20 Spokesperson Appointed - Burt Manning?" 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And just using your notes can you 23 tell us what Mr. Fox -- 24 A: Sure. 25 Q: -- said to the group?
781 A: Yes. So he was updating us from his 2 information which would have come from the OPP members on 3 the ground. So, he indicated that an interim 4 spokesperson had been appointed, that was Bert Manning; 5 that a meeting between the OPP and the occupiers' group 6 was set for noon of that day. 7 So, that would be September the 6th and 8 that they have said, and this is in quotes, that "The 9 Park is their land and there is a burial site there." 10 End quote. 11 So, that's presumably a direct quote that 12 Ron is relaying from what the occupiers said, that there 13 are thirty-five (35) to forty (40) people on the site but 14 the numbers fluctuate since there is no barrier between 15 the Park and the Base, meaning that people can go back 16 and forth between the two (2) areas that are being 17 occupied; that the Chief of the First Nation, Tom 18 Bressette, does not support the occupation; that three 19 (3) warrants for arrest have been issued regarding minor 20 damage; that there was a fire on the road by the Army 21 Camp last night and after police responded, bottles and 22 stones were hurled at them; that there was no -- there 23 were no sightings of firearms. 24 And then Ron says a flare was used, that's 25 all; that the noon meeting today is tentative; that
791 Inspector John Carson will be there and that it's just 2 with the OPP that there's no one else from -- no other 3 government people, just the OPP. 4 And then that -- that's the end of what 5 Ron says and then the next line must be Deb Hutton 6 speaking because she's the only one who can speak on 7 behalf of the Premier and the note says: 8 "The Premier does not want anyone 9 involved in discussions other than the 10 OPP and possibly MNR (doesn't want the 11 chief or others involved, doesn't want 12 to get into negotiations)." 13 Q: And what does that refer to? 14 A: I think that that refers to the fact 15 that the Premier wants this viewed as a policing issue, a 16 law enforcement issue not a land claims issue or an 17 Aboriginal issue; that's why he doesn't want other 18 people, like from other ministries involved like ONAS and 19 that he doesn't want to get into negotiations with the 20 occupiers. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Because in -- like in -- according to 23 Deb their view was that these people are trespassing -- 24 they're illegal trespassers, that they should be treated 25 like anyone else who was illegally trespassing so that
801 the fact that they're Aboriginal or, you know, claim that 2 the land is theirs or that there's a burial ground is 3 irrelevant. 4 Q: And the reference, "doesn't want 5 chief or others involved," the chief is... 6 A: The chief would be Bressette, and 7 that the, "doesn't want to get into negotiations", I 8 think is the -- that any sort of discussions or 9 negotiations other than just the OPP doing basic kind of 10 fact finding. 11 Q: Yes. Then there's a heading, MNR. 12 A: Yes. So, someone from MNR said that 13 t hey -- 14 Q: Ms. -- Ms. Jai. 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: When the Witness 16 gives her view on these notes, is she interpreting the 17 notes, is she recalling something that was said at the 18 time? 19 It sounds to me like we've just heard an 20 interpretation of this note rather than a recollection. 21 And it's an interpretation which would appear to be 22 inconsistent since there's a reference here to possibly 23 the MNR being involved in discussions. 24 So, I think it's very important on -- on 25 this issue that we understand where the Witness is
811 speculating on the note, trying to reconstruct events on 2 the note or whether she has a recollection or anything 3 that was actually said at the time. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm happy to 5 clarify. There are things that I independently recall 6 that are not in the notes. And that I can't say whether 7 they were said on September 5th or September the 6th, but 8 I remember them being said at the meeting. 9 And looking at the notes, you know, that 10 does refresh my memory. So, I mean, I do recall Deb 11 Hutton indicating that the Premier's view was that this 12 was -- that these -- that these protesters or occupiers 13 were to be treated like everyone else. 14 That it wasn't -- that they didn't want it 15 viewed as an Aboriginal issue. That it -- and that was 16 consistent with their approach that Aboriginal people 17 don't have any special rights. 18 So, that did come up. It's not 19 specifically reflected in these notes, but I know that it 20 was said at either the September 5th or September 6th 21 meeting. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can 23 appreciate the need for precision on -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- these
821 matters and as we go forward -- 2 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just try 4 to distinguish what you're doing. You're -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- either 7 reflecting or speculating or -- 8 THE WITNESS: Right. Yeah. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Now -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Downard 13 wants to help us out some more. 14 MR. PETER DOWNARD: When the Witness says 15 that that was consistent with their approach, that 16 Aboriginal people do not have any special rights, is she 17 now -- is she now saying that Deb Hutton said in the 18 meeting that, We're taking this position that's 19 consistent with our approach that Aboriginal people don't 20 have any special rights or is she commenting on what -- 21 what she -- what she just told us was said at the 22 meeting? It's not clear to me. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. I apologize for the 24 lack of clarity. That last sentence was a comment that I 25 am making as opposed to something that Deb Hutton said at
831 the meeting. 2 So, what Deb Hutton said was that the 3 Premier did not want this occupation treated as an 4 Aboriginal issue, that he did not believe that 5 Aboriginal people had any special rights and that they 6 had no right to occupy the Park. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Thank you. And then down to the 10 heading, MNR, and what does that refer to? 11 A: Someone from MNR said that they now 12 view this as a police issue, so they don't want to be 13 involved that much either. They're -- they're kind of 14 trying to slough it off on the OPP. 15 Q: Okay. And then the next -- and do 16 you recall who from the MNR took that position? 17 A: I can't recall who said that. 18 Q: Okay. Then -- 19 A: Then there's a discussion about what 20 would happen at today's meeting, and I assume that this 21 is Ron speaking again, Ron Fox. 22 Q: And today's meaning -- meeting -- 23 A: That would be the noon -- the meeting 24 that was planned for noon on September the 6th with -- 25 between the OPP and the occupiers.
841 So, the plan was that John Carson would 2 again advise them they are trespassing, serve them with 3 notice that they're trespassing and ask them to leave, 4 and also try to determine what their demands are. 5 Q: Then there's a note -- there's a 6 bullet, then "media" that's struck out. 7 Is there any significance with respect -- 8 respect to that? 9 A: Maybe somebody had started making a 10 comment about the media but it didn't really go anywhere 11 and we just moved on, so it was really nothing worth 12 making a note about. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Because then there was an 15 intervention by the -- I assume by Deb Hutton, because it 16 says, "Premier's office". 17 Q: PO stands for Premier's office? 18 A: Premier's office, yes. 19 Q: And was there anyone else at the 20 meeting beyond Deb Hutton from the Premier's office? 21 A: No, she was the only one from the 22 Premier's office. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: So, the Premier's office would like 25 the Chief, and that's Chief Bressette:
851 "...to support us, but do this 2 independently. Doesn't want to get 3 into land claims." 4 So -- indicating that they wanted the 5 support of Chief Bressette but not in a way that brought 6 in issues of land claims. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Then Peter Sturdy from MNR, and he's 9 the guy, kind of, locally on the ground. 10 Q: And I can't remember. Was Peter 11 Sturdy was -- and Mr. Baldwin were -- 12 A: They were connected -- 13 Q: -- on the tele -- 14 A: -- by phone. 15 Q: By telephone? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And Mr. Baldwin, again, is from the 18 MNR? 19 A: Yes, they're both locally in the 20 region. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: So, Peter Sturdy said that his staff 23 say that they heard automatic gunfire during the night 24 and they also heard heavy equipment and then there's a 25 note that the Solicitor General will check.
861 So, that must be Ron saying that, you 2 know, he would look into that. 3 And Peter is also saying that buildings in 4 the Park have been broken into and are being used and 5 that local residents are really concerned. 6 Then the next heading is, Briefings With 7 Ministers. So, we each sort of talk about what we -- the 8 fact that we went and briefed our ministers, because we 9 were asked to do that or we all said we would do that, 10 after the meeting of the previous day. 11 So, Jeff Bangs from MNR says: 12 "We did what was agreed regarding 13 messages. He stuck to the script." 14 Because we had some communications 15 messages from the day before. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And that -- 18 Q: And so -- 19 A: "Their minister [that's MNR] does not 20 want to carry this especially if it 21 spreads beyond the Park. He feels that 22 this is quickly spiralling out of MNR's 23 hands and that the OPP should be the 24 spokespeople." 25 And then Peter Allen, who's also from MNR,
871 said that he felt that: 2 "...the spokesperson should be local. 3 Keep matters local, but that this 4 committee, the Interministerial 5 Committee, could also vet releases." 6 That's press releases, so that there was a 7 common communication line. 8 Q: So, do I understand it correctly that 9 at least from your note that Mr. Bangs from the MNR 10 indicated that his minister doesn't want to carry this, 11 was referring to his minister being the lead; is that 12 what you understood? 13 A: Right, right. And that he -- and 14 that his minister didn't want to, kind of, wear this 15 politically or take the political responsibility for it, 16 or public -- the public responsibility. 17 Q: And beyond the note, did -- do you 18 recall anything Mr. Bangs said as to why the Minister of 19 Natural Resources was taking that position? 20 A: I don't recall anything beyond the 21 note. So then, Deb Hutton says: 22 "But we want to be seen as having 23 control over this so ministers can't 24 duck if they're scrummed." 25 Like, by the press.
881 "And the Premier is not averse to this 2 being a provincial government action." 3 Q: And do you recall anything more about 4 this comment by Ms. Hutton? 5 A: Well, I'm -- yes, I mean, now that I 6 see my notes, I mean this is a refreshed recollection. 7 But, Deb is sort of responding in a way to what Jeff has 8 said. 9 Like, they're both political staff, both 10 Jeff and -- and so while Jeff Bangs is sort of saying 11 that the MNR minister doesn't really want to wear this 12 and would rather kind of keep a low profile on it and 13 have somebody else take the lead. Deb is saying, well 14 the Premier is not averse to sort of being visible on 15 this issue. 16 So, in other words, a different reaction 17 from her minister than what Jeff had from his minister. 18 Q: And, in fairness, she also indicates 19 by this note that the ministers can't duck if -- if 20 scrummed. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: So, that notwithstanding the position 23 that Mr. Bangs may have taken on behalf of his minister, 24 Ms. Hutton's saying, You can't duck the issue of -- by 25 'scrummed' that means being involved with members of the
891 Fifth Estate, the press? 2 A: Yes, if the media come she is -- she 3 is indicating to Jeff that his minister should be 4 prepared to speak. And then on the next page, top of 5 page 3, this is me speaking. And obviously I can't -- I 6 don't take very detailed notes when I'm talking myself. 7 So, I'm basically briefing them on what the discussion 8 with my minister was. 9 So, I say that we are seeking the 10 injunction. In other words, we got the go-ahead from the 11 Minister to seek the injunction, that other matters are 12 within police discretion and that we know that the goal 13 is to get people out as soon as possible. 14 Q: Okay. Yes? 15 A: And then Tim McCabe says that 16 ministers can say: 17 "Instructions have been given to the 18 Attorney General to seek an injunction 19 as soon as possible. This is not a 20 case for an ex parte injunction. 21 We should give notice, but we could go 22 into court to seek an abridgement of 23 the three (3) day notice period. 24 We're checking with the Sarnia court to 25 find out when a judge is available.
901 The other variable is getting our 2 material ready. We need to establish 3 that this is provincial Crown land and 4 show the title history and then talk -- 5 document incidents in the Park, et 6 cetera." 7 So, the best case scenario, and that's 8 taking into account the two (2) things Tim just talked 9 about, the availability of a judge and the fact that we 10 have to prepare the material for the injunction, and this 11 is already Wednesday when we're talking, the best case 12 would be to be in court on Friday. 13 And then Deb Hutton says: 14 "The Premier feels that the longer they 15 occupy it the more support they'll get. 16 He wants them out in a day or two (2)." 17 So, here we are on Wednesday morning and a 18 day or two (2) which is, well, Thursday or Friday. So 19 then Tim says: 20 "Well, that suggests we should proceed 21 under the Code. [He means the Criminal 22 Code] Ron says it's still a dispute 23 over land in a closed Provincial Park. 24 It's mischief, not a 'heavy-duty' 25 charge. We need to look at the long--"
911 Q: And it's got "heavy-duty" in quotes? 2 A: Yeah, "heavy-duty" in quotes, charge. 3 "We need to look at a long-term 4 solution. An injunction is 5 preferable." 6 And he feels that it's imprudent to rush 7 in. So Ron is indicating his preference for using an 8 injunction rather than Criminal Code charges to try to 9 remove the occupiers. 10 And then I say, and I'm trying to support 11 Ron, that: 12 "Police -- the police are in the best 13 position to assess the risk and take 14 action." 15 And Scott Hutchison says: 16 "We can give them legal advice and give 17 them as much support as possible. Ron 18 says the OPP will help with an 19 injunction." 20 So, he's clearly trying to keep us on the 21 injunction track. And then he said: 22 "A communications message could be the 23 AG has been instructed to seek an 24 injunction as soon as possible. Three 25 (3) individuals have been charged."
921 So, just -- he's trying to show that there 2 is a communications line that can be provided that shows 3 that we are actually doing something. And then he talks 4 about the three (3) individuals who were charged and that 5 that has already been reported in the London Free Press. 6 And there was a mischief charge and a weapons-related 7 charge with respect to the flare. 8 And then he -- this is still Ron talking. 9 He's saying: 10 "The police are trying to get people to 11 leave the Park but want an injunction." 12 So, he's clearly stating the police 13 preference for an injunction. 14 "If criminal charges are laid there is 15 no guarantee that people won't go 16 back." 17 Like, just go back into the Park after 18 they've been charged. 19 And then Scott Hutchison says he agrees. 20 "Even if you impose conditions on their 21 release, they can breach the terms of 22 their recognizance." 23 In other words go back into the Park. 24 Peter Sturdy then says he has confirmed 25 reports of gunfire; that he is concerned about the safety
931 of the -- of his staff, like, MNR staff, who are 2 accompanying the OPP: 3 That picnic tables have been placed on 4 County Road 10 blocking access to the 5 beach; that the OPP and MNR staff 6 assisted in trying to arrest the 7 people. [And then in brackets it says] 8 (The two (2) fled and the barrier 9 removed)." 10 So, that I think the OPP tried to remove 11 this barrier. So, that's just another kind of update on 12 what's happening on the ground. 13 Q: And the barriers -- do you recall 14 what the barrier was? 15 The picnic tables? 16 A: I think it was the picnic tables. 17 Q: And at the top of this page 4 before 18 we go on, there's a note: 19 "John Carson - Incident Commander." 20 A: Yes. I think that's just a note to 21 myself that he's -- one of the key people is John Carson 22 as the incident commander. 23 Q: Okay. At the bottom of the page? 24 A: Then I -- I say, "agreed". This is 25 the consensus that I've been trying to get us to.
941 "That we will seek an injunction as 2 soon as possible." 3 And that's a regular injunction and that's 4 on Friday. So that was Tim McCabe's, you know, best case 5 scenario that we could get before a judge in Sarnia on 6 Friday. 7 "That Criminal Code charges would be 8 within police discretion. They are 9 trying to remove people." 10 Q: What's that refer to, "They're trying 11 to remove people"? 12 A: Well, that they're on the ground and 13 that they're doing their best to persuade people to leave 14 and to charge them if there is actually any Criminal Code 15 offence. 16 Q: And so it was your understanding that 17 the OPP at the time were trying to simply talk people 18 into leaving the Park? 19 A: Yes. Just to peaceably remove 20 people, or to -- I mean, if they were committing an 21 offence then they could charge them and arrest them. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: "So, we all agree that the goal is to 24 remove the people from the Park as soon 25 as possible."
951 So, then on the top of page 5 this would 2 be Tim talking about the injunction. So, he says: 3 "Friday, if the injunction is obtained, 4 the sheriff can issue an order" 5 Q: Or has the order. 6 A: Has the -- oh, sorry. 7 "Sheriff has the order and that he can 8 ask the police to help enforce the 9 order and that if they [that being the 10 occupiers] refuse to move, we can get 11 an order from the court that they are 12 in contempt. And that the..." 13 Oh, this would be someone else talking, 14 not Tim. 15 "...that the police are trying to 16 minimize the risk now. For example, 17 with checkpoints at the perimeter." 18 Q: And would that have been either Ron 19 Fox or Scott Patrick? 20 Did Scott Patrick, who appears to have 21 attending the meeting with Ron Fox, do you recall him 22 speaking? 23 A: I don't think he said very much. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: So -- but, it would have been Ron or
961 Scott who would have said this because it's a comment 2 about the police. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: And then the next paragraph about the 5 burial grounds would have probably been Dave Carson 6 because I had asked Dave who was a lawyer who worked for 7 me, to look into the legal regime surrounding burial 8 grounds and what our responsibilities would be. So, Dave 9 says: 10 "Regarding the possible burial ground, 11 it doesn't affect Crown ownership. 12 It's under the Cemeteries Act which 13 makes it a requirement that the police 14 and the coroner being notified if there 15 is a burial site discovered. 16 The Registrar of cemeteries would be 17 notified, would have it investigated. 18 Could declare the site to be an 19 unimproved Aboriginal cemetery. Then 20 notice would be given to the local Band 21 Council and negotiation occurs 22 regarding the disposition of the 23 remains and an arbitration is 24 possible." 25 Q: And do you recall at this point
971 whether you had received Mr. Carson's memorandum? 2 A: I had probably received it by then. 3 Q: And we'll come back to it. 4 A: Yeah. Then Tim says that: 5 "The burial ground -- the alleged 6 burial ground is unlikely to affect the 7 injunction." 8 Q: And do you recall today if he said 9 anything more than that or why it was unlikely to affect 10 the injunction? 11 A: I don't recall anything more than 12 just that note -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- what's in the note. 15 Then there's a -- then there's a reference 16 to Marcel Beaubien, and I don't know who is making this 17 comment, but obviously it isn't Marcel Beaubien because 18 he's not at the meeting. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: But, someone is talking about Marcel 21 Beaubien who is the MPP in the area; that he has said, I 22 think this is like a -- somebody talking about what 23 Marcel's concerns are. 24 Q: Do you have enough water there, Ms. 25 Jai?
981 A: Hmm hmm. That he's trying to diffuse 2 tensions, that they need somebody to work with the local 3 officials, et cetera, to try to diffuse tensions and then 4 perhaps the local MPP, informally, behind the scenes. 5 And then, "consistency of message also 6 important." 7 And then, "Dave Moran," who is -- 8 Q: So, you can't remember who talked 9 about this issue -- 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: -- in relation to Mr. Moran? Okay. 12 A: Then Dave Moran -- sorry. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Well, Dave says that Marcel is not 17 the appropriate person to do this, in other words, to do 18 the diffusing of tensions. 19 And then Dave says: 20 "We should get a list of who needs to 21 be calmed down and that his office 22 [Dave Moran's office] will communicate 23 with a key person on this." 24 Q: And -- 25 A: So Dave's view was that just that
991 Marcel was -- was not the appropriate person to diffuse 2 tensions in the area. 3 Q: Marcel being Marcel Beaubien? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And who -- who's speaking when it -- 6 the note at the top of page 6, "local spokesman to be 7 OPP?" 8 A: I don't know who said that. 9 Q: Okay. Then in the upper right hand 10 corner: 11 "priority - public safety [bullet] 12 removing them?" 13 A: Hmm hmm. Those are just my notes as 14 the meeting is going on of things that I'm trying to, 15 again, sort of build a consensus around. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Or see if those are what -- what are 18 -- some of the agreed upon messages might be. And then 19 there was a discussion about the ministerial spokesperson 20 and that MNR doesn't want it to be them, which they'd 21 already said several times in the meeting. 22 Q: And so that MNR, the property owner, 23 didn't want to take the lead? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Okay.
1001 Q: But then Deb Hutton says that: 2 "She feels that MNR, as the property 3 owner, can ask the OPP to remove 4 people." 5 And then Scott Patrick says: 6 "You can ask the OPP to remove them, 7 you can't insist or demand that they be 8 removed." 9 Q: And -- and we have two (2) Scotts at 10 this meeting; Scott Hutchison -- 11 A: Oh, right. 12 Q: -- and Scott Patrick. 13 A: Oh, right. 14 Q: And do you recall today -- I believe 15 -- do you recall today who the Scott is? 16 A: I can't recall today. 17 Q: Scott Hutchison -- the evidence of 18 Scott Hutchison -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- was that he believed that it was 21 him. 22 A: Yes, that would be the type of thing 23 that he would say. 24 Q: When you say the -- 25 A: Because it's within his area of
1011 expertise which is appropriate relationships with the 2 police. 3 Q: So that you wouldn't disagree with 4 Mr. Hutchison if that he said that it -- he said this? 5 A: Yes, yeah. And then -- so Scott is 6 sort of explaining that you can't tell the OPP to remove 7 them. Then Deb says: 8 "Well, has MNR asked the OPP to remove 9 them?" 10 And then the answer or, like, not her, 11 somebody else says that, well, the -- that the -- they 12 could be formally requested to do so. But how and when 13 they do it is -- oh, is up to them. 14 In other words, that the OPP could -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we just 16 stop for a second Ms. Jai. 17 Yes, Mr. Downard...? 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: When the Witness 19 says, and then after there was a line saying Deb and 20 there's a dash, "has MNR asked to removed them," then 21 there's a line just below with a dash, almost just below 22 the dash above, saying, "they could be formally requested 23 to do so," and the Witness says that is somebody else 24 saying that. 25 Is that the Witness' interpretation of the
1021 note or reconstruction of events or is that her distinct 2 recollection of what happened at the time? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you be 4 precise about that, Ms. Jai? 5 THE WITNESS: That's my interpretation of 6 the notes based on -- also on, I guess, of just a recoll 7 -- also a recollection of the time. 8 Because she asks this as a question, after 9 having basically being told by Scott, you know, what you 10 can and cannot do with the -- with the OPP. So somebody 11 else responds to her question that MNR or the -- it just 12 says, "they could be formally requested to do so." 13 I guess that means, "they," as the OPP, 14 could be formally requested to remove the occupiers, but 15 how and when they do it is up to them. 16 So that could be Scott again, responding 17 to her question. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And based on your recollection and 21 these notes, you believe that Ms. Hutton asked the 22 question and then someone else responded? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And then there's a bullet, 25 "could have that as a communication message."
1031 Do you recall who made that comment? 2 A: I can't recall who said that, but it 3 was part of the overall desire to come up with messages 4 that kind of set out that we were doing something in 5 response to this occupation, so that this would be 6 potentially a communications message to say that MNR has 7 formally asked that they, that's the OPP, remove the 8 occupiers. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Then Peter Sturdy says that at noon, 11 there'll be something on TV that natives coming to the 12 van with baseball bats and that the OPP on the scene drew 13 guns. 14 So this is just some other report from 15 Peter about what he has heard from the field. 16 Q: But -- 17 A: So he seems to interject these things 18 kind of these bits of facts at various points in the 19 meeting, because we were all still talking about, kind 20 of, the media lines. 21 Because and the next point is, we're going 22 back to messages, can also say we have asked the OPP to 23 remove the people, that's the kind of a reiteration of 24 what was said earlier that MNR's formally asked that they 25 be removed. And Tim -- there's a comment from Tim
1041 McCabe: 2 "This could create a problem with the 3 injunction application if we say that 4 we have asked the OPP to remove the 5 people." 6 So Tim is saying that this could create a 7 problem with the injunction application. 8 "Could colour things." 9 But then he says: 10 "It shouldn't be significant." 11 So he's sort of weighing it, thinking out 12 loud, and then deciding maybe it's not that much of a 13 problem. 14 And then another -- what would be a -- a 15 sort of media line would be: 16 "We are also seeking an injunction as 17 soon as possible and that public safety 18 is key." 19 Q: And could I just stop you there. 20 Could we go back to the comment, Peter Sturdy, that you 21 referred to. 22 Do you recall today anything more about 23 what was being referred to in this comment: 24 "At noon - will televise - natives 25 coming to van with baseball bats - OPP
1051 on scene drew guns?" 2 A: No, I don't recall anything else. I 3 mean, just that it was one of a number of comments that 4 Peter made -- 5 Q: Peter Sturdy? 6 A: Peter Sturdy made during both these 7 meetings where he seemed to be bringing in bits of local 8 intelligence that he had gathered. Some -- some of which 9 seemed unlikely to be true, I mean there are a number of 10 things that, you know, there's comments that the -- you 11 know, Ron says, Well, we'll try to verify that or 12 whatever. 13 Q: Okay. Then -- 14 A: And it seems that people don't really 15 -- weren't really responding to these things that Peter 16 said. They would just kind of come in at various points 17 in the meeting and then we would just go on and talk 18 about what we had been talking about. 19 Q: And Peter Sturdy was on the 20 telephone? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yes? Then Minister Hodgson? 23 A: Yes, then it says: 24 "Minister Hodgson will take the lead in 25 communications as the property owner."
1061 Q: And who said that? 2 A: I don't know. It's sort of hard to 3 believe it would be coming from MNR after they said that 4 they didn't want to really be the -- the leaders on this. 5 But, on the other hand, Deb had said earlier that, you 6 know, that everybody had to be prepared to speak on this. 7 And then Deb says: 8 "The Premier is also prepared to speak 9 on this." 10 And then on the top of page 7, MNR -- 11 someone from MNR says: 12 "The Minister's office will, with help 13 from the Premier's office, will manage 14 municipal leaders, et cetera." 15 Q: And could I just stop you there for 16 the moment? Do you recall Ms. Hutton leaving the meeting 17 at some point and around this point? 18 A: I can't recall. 19 Q: And we believe we anticipate Ms. 20 Hipfner will give -- testify that Ms. Hutton left the 21 room to call the Premier? 22 A: That's entirely possible but I 23 don't -- 24 Q: You don't recall? 25 A: -- have a recollection of it.
1071 Q: Thank you. Yes...? And you're at 2 the top of page 7? 3 A: Yes. I mean there were many things 4 going on in the room and I was trying to chair it as well 5 as take voluminous notes so I -- it's certainly entirely 6 possible that Ms. Hutton did leave the room. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And it's possible that I noticed it 9 at the time and that I just can't remember it now and 10 that I didn't make a note of it. 11 So MNR says that the Minister's office, 12 with help from the Premier's office, will manage 13 municipal leaders, et cetera. And then that the 14 Municipality of Bosanquet is actively seeking an 15 injunction. 16 And then there's this reference to this 17 tender for the water system ,that the municipality has 18 disqualified the native tender which was the lowest bid. 19 But, they have a legal opinion that the tender was not 20 adequate, i.e., no PST, et cetera, and other concerns and 21 that the natives, that would be the First Nation, has 22 been advised at the council meeting last night. 23 Q: And do you know -- can you recall who 24 advised the meeting of these facts? 25 A: I believe it would have been MNR,
1081 someone from MNR. 2 Q: Okay. And then there's a note, Deb? 3 A: Yeah. So then Deb says: 4 "How do we keep up-to-date -- up-to- 5 date on events, for example this 6 meeting at noon?" 7 That's the one that's supposed to be with 8 the occupiers. So we agree that Ron Fox will call me 9 with updates; that I will send it to the relevant EA's 10 and that they will disseminate information to their staff 11 and that MNR will develop a communications plan. 12 Q: And do you recall if, at some point 13 during this meeting, Ron Fox left the room to make a 14 telephone call? 15 A: Again, it's entirely possible but I 16 can't -- I have no recollection of whether he did or did 17 not. 18 Q: And -- because I think, as I recall 19 his evidence, he indicated that he did leave to call John 20 Carson with respect to the gunfire statements made by the 21 representatives of the Ministry of Natural Resources. 22 A: Hmm hmm. Yeah. That seems quite 23 possible. 24 Q: But you can't recall? 25 A: But I can't recall.
1091 Q: Okay. And so at the bottom of page 2 7, we're at the end of your notes, and what was going to 3 happen as a result -- at this point, as a result of this 4 meeting? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 6 we've been trying to keep our breaks at an hour, would 7 this be a good point -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, that'd be a 9 good -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to take 11 another short break? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 15 another short break. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 11:14 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 11:23 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1101 Q: Ms. Jai, just before the break we 2 were talking about your notes, Exhibit P-536, Inquiry 3 Document 1012579 and at the end of the meeting, what was 4 the result of the meeting with respect to the various 5 options? 6 A: Well we had agreement that we would 7 be seeking a civil injunction, pursuant to our minister's 8 instructions. So, that that would be a normal 9 injunction, not an ex parte injunction. But we would be 10 trying to get before a judge on Friday. So, as soon as 11 possible. 12 Q: And on page 1 of your notes, the 13 agenda, excuse me, on the agenda copy of the notes, we 14 spoke about this earlier, there's a note, "Agreed." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that is taken -- you made that 17 note that the committee had agreed with that? 18 A: Yes, exactly. But -- so those were 19 the things that I wanted to get them to agree to and I 20 felt that I had gotten them to agree to coming out of the 21 meeting. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And then the minutes, actually, the 24 formal minutes, I guess, more clearly record what the 25 agreed upon results were.
1111 Q: And I could take you to those, 2 they're at Tab -- the draft of the minutes are at Tab 35 3 and the final minutes are at Tab 36. And the notes -- 4 the minutes reflect that the minutes are part of Exhibit 5 P-459 as well as P-509, the final minute notes. 6 And I note that the -- under heading, 7 "Minister Directive," 8 A: Yes, on page 2 of the minutes. 9 Q: "The minister wants to act as quickly 10 as possible to avoid further damage and 11 to curtail any escalation of the 12 situation." 13 Then -- that's under MNR. 14 "Then MAG, the minister agrees that 15 application will be made for an 16 injunction." 17 And then under the heading, "SGC:" 18 "As a matter of protocol the SGC does 19 not involve itself in the day to day 20 operations of the OPP. The OPP will 21 exercise its discretion regarding how 22 to proceed in removing the Stoney 23 Pointers from the Park and the laying 24 of appropriate charges." 25 Now there's no reflection in your notes
1121 directly with respect to this issue from the Solicitor 2 General's Department about the protocol. 3 A: I think it was something that was 4 discussed but -- that I didn't make a note of. And it 5 was probably something that I wanted to emphasize in the 6 minutes -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- because I felt that there was some 9 lack of clarity around this. I mean it was actually 10 mentioned in my notes -- in the discussion where we were 11 talking about, where Scott Hutchison kind of intervenes 12 and says that -- that we can ask the OPP to remove the 13 occupiers. You cannot insist or demand that they be 14 removed. So there is that discussion in my notes. 15 Q: And I anticipate that we'll hear 16 evidence that Ms. Hunt, on behalf of the representative 17 of the Solicitor General, indicated that there was a 18 protocol that -- as set out in the minutes. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And does that assist your 21 recollection? 22 Do you recall Ms. Hunt saying something to 23 that affect? 24 A: She may have, I can't recall. 25 Q: But it clearly -- being in the
1131 minutes it was something that was discussed as it is 2 included in the minutes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the minutes -- can you just tell 5 us a little bit about what happened, how -- how quickly 6 the minutes were made up on September the 6th? 7 A: They were made up right after the 8 meeting. Nathalie would have done them -- I would have 9 asked her to do them as soon as possible and then I would 10 have reviewed and revised them probably that same day. 11 Q: And the -- there's an entry under 12 page 3: 13 "Next step, it was agreed that an 14 injunction should be sought ASAP." 15 And then there's an -- and that was your 16 understanding that a regular injunction would be sought 17 as soon as possible -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- as a result of the meeting? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And then subsequent to the meeting 22 there was a note inserted. Did you insert this note -- 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: "Following the meeting Cabinet 25 directed MAG lawyers to apply
1141 immediately for an ex parte injunction. 2 Tim McCabe, Elizabeth Christie, and 3 Leith Hunter are preparing the 4 application and compiling the 5 supporting documentation." 6 And have I read that correctly? 7 A: Yes, that's correct. 8 Q: And who gave you this advice? 9 A: This would have been initially from a 10 phone call that I had from Ron Fox. Sometime after the 11 meeting in the afternoon he called me to say that he had 12 been pulled into this Cabinet meeting at which the 13 direction had changed and that it was now an ex parte 14 injunction that was being sought and I would have 15 confirmed that -- that information probably with Larry 16 Taman. 17 Q: Okay. When you say, "I would have," 18 do you recall did you confirm it with Larry Taman? 19 A: I can't recall the actual 20 conversation but I would not have proceeded to give 21 instructions to Tim and Elizabeth and Leith to change the 22 nature of the application without talking to Larry or to 23 Yan Lazor who -- if -- you know if -- if Yan had come and 24 said he just spoke to Larry and Larry told him this then 25 that would have been sufficient as well. So it could
1151 have happened in a couple of different ways. 2 Q: So the meeting -- from the notes it 3 lasted from approximately 9:30 to 11:45 p.m., from -- 4 A: Oh, that should say a.m. 5 Q: I mean, excuse me, a.m., it didn't 6 last all day. I hadn't caught that. 7 So Exhibit P-459 or 509 the time is from 8 9:30 a.m. to 11:45 a.m. And after the meeting itself 9 what did you do next? 10 A: Well, I spoke to Ron because he 11 called me after he had been called into the legislature-- 12 Q: And -- 13 A: And -- 14 Q: But, so the next step was speaking to 15 Ron? 16 A: Well it was fairly soon after the 17 meeting that he called me. 18 Q: Okay. Perhaps before we go there, do 19 you recall anyone saying at the meeting on September the 20 6th, the Interministerial Meeting on September 6th, that 21 the Premier -- that Deb Hutton said get -- the Premier 22 wants to, 23 "get those fucking Indians out of the 24 Park and use guns if you have to?" 25 A: No, I don't recall that being said at
1161 the meeting. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: And I would have remembered if words 4 like that had been used. 5 Q: So -- 6 A: Because it's very unusual, you know, 7 to have kind of four (4) letter words used in a 8 government meeting. 9 Q: So that if someone had said that you 10 would -- you don't recall it but if someone had said that 11 you would have remembered it because it's quite out of 12 the ordinary? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And do you recall anyone saying 15 anything similar to that at the meeting? 16 A: No. I mean other than just the -- 17 the desire to get the Indians out of the Park as quickly 18 as possible; that was what was expressed at the meeting. 19 Q: And then after the meeting did -- you 20 -- you spoke to Ron Fox? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And his -- there's a note in your 23 handwriting; it's at page 20 -- Tab 27. It's Exhibit P- 24 515, Inquiry document 3001088. 25 A: Yes.
1171 Q: And is that the note of the -- a note 2 of the telephone call you just spoke to us about? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can you tell us about that call? 5 Do you know when you received this call? 6 A: Some time in the afternoon of 7 September the 6th. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: But relatively early afternoon, like 10 not five o'clock, more like -- I don't know, three 11 o'clock or something. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I'm not -- you know, early -- 14 Q: Early in the afternoon? 15 A: Yeah, early in the afternoon. 16 Q: And can you tell us, using your -- do 17 -- what do you recall about the meeting without -- I 18 mean, the telephone call, without looking at your note? 19 A: Well, I recall that Ron called me and 20 he said that he had been called into a meeting over at 21 the legislative building, which he referred to as a 22 cabinet meeting, that Elaine Todres, like his deputy and 23 a bunch of the key ministers and deputies were at and 24 that Larry was there at the meeting. 25 And that there was very strong views
1181 expressed by the Premier about the urgency of getting the 2 Indians out of the Park and that the decision -- he came 3 into the meeting kind of in the middle or like it had 4 sort of already started, but that -- the decision was 5 now, or the direction was now that we would seek an ex 6 parte injunction. 7 Q: Okay. And you -- 8 A: And he was very sort of excited or, 9 like, Ron when he was telling me about this, was quite -- 10 like this whole -- this is all very unusual, you know, 11 for a -- somebody to be called into a cabinet meeting at 12 the last minute who was just at the level of Ron Fox, is 13 quite unusual. 14 And that the -- the views that were 15 expressed, I think he thought were quite strong and, you 16 know, surprising to him. 17 So he was quite animated in his discussion 18 with me about it. 19 Q: Okay. And using your note -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: I take it this is the note of the 22 telephone call? 23 A: Yes. So, I'm just kind of recording 24 the factual information -- 25 Q: Yes.
1191 A: -- from the call. 2 Q: Sure. 3 A: And so he says that Tim, and that 4 would be Tim McCabe: 5 "Has asked for someone from the OPP to 6 give viva voce evidence before a judge 7 today in Sarnia and that now the OPP 8 Commissioner is involved, decisions 9 will be made at his level that he [Ron] 10 was called into cabinet; that Larry 11 Taman was there and was eloquent and 12 that he [that's Larry] cautioned about 13 rushing in with an ex parte injunction 14 and made the point that you cannot 15 interfere with police discretion. 16 But the Premier and Hodgson came out 17 strong. Larry and Elaine Todres are 18 the two (2) deputies from AG and 19 Solicitor General were at cabinet. 20 Ron was there for part of the 21 discussion. The decision to go ex 22 parte appeared to have already been 23 made." 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall anything 25 else?
1201 A: No, just that Ron's concern about 2 this. I mean, he was concerned about the tone of the 3 discussion. But as a result of this information from 4 Ron, which I would have kind of verified with Yan or 5 Larry, I made that revision to the minutes of the meeting 6 that we just were looking at. 7 Q: And do you know who was at the 8 meeting other than Mr. Harris and Mr. Hodgson and Larry 9 Taman and Elaine Todres? 10 A: Well I believe that our minister was 11 also there, Charles Harnick. 12 Q: Okay. And anyone else that you're 13 aware of? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And what was your reaction to the 16 decision to change from a regular injunction, albeit on 17 short notice, to an ex parte injunction? 18 A: Well I was surprised and 19 disappointed, because our -- I felt that the case was 20 very clear, you know, that had been made by the public 21 servants and the lawyers that we really didn't have 22 grounds for an ex parte injunction. 23 And that it would be good to have an 24 opportunity to actually, you know, have a hearing where 25 the other party had notice and that would provide some
1211 opportunity for dialogue. 2 And I was also very surprised, because in 3 my experience, it's usually the Attorney General who is 4 the final -- has the final say on, kind of, issues of 5 legal procedure, like, whether you go with an ex parte 6 injunction or a regular injunction. 7 Normally, once you had gotten your 8 direction from your minister that's the final word and 9 you just go and do it. So, it seemed surprising to me 10 that that decision would then be overturned, apparently, 11 by cabinet. 12 Although as we -- we later learned that 13 this was not a cabinet meeting but a meeting of 14 ministers, I mean. So, it wasn't the full cabinet but it 15 was a core group of the minsters most involved in this -- 16 in this incident. 17 Q: All right. And were you aware at the 18 time, on September the 6th, that Ron Fox had -- had 19 communicated about the meeting, both the -- the 20 Interministerial meeting and the meeting with the 21 Premier, to the Incident Commander John Carson? 22 A: I wasn't aware that he had. 23 Although, I knew that he was in general keeping John 24 Carson informed of some of the things that were happ -- 25 coming out of the Interministerial meetings.
1221 Q: And were you aft -- as a result of 2 your conversation with Mr. Fox, that's set out in Exhibit 3 P-515, Inquiry Document 3001088 at Tab 27 of your binder, 4 were you -- did you have any concerns as to what might 5 happen on the ground with respect to the OPP as a result 6 of your conversation with Ron Fox? 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: And why not? 9 A: Well, I guess I felt that John -- I 10 had a lot of confidence in the OPP and in John Carson as 11 the Incident Commander based on everything that Ron had 12 told me about him. So, I didn't expect that they would 13 take any precipitous action. 14 And I knew that the OPP's own preference 15 was to proceed very cautiously. So, I mean, it was kind 16 of -- a bit alarming to find out that from a legal -- 17 legal perspective that the legal direction from the 18 Attorney General who is like the -- suppose to be the 19 chief law officer of the Crown, that that was overturned 20 by cabinet, that was alarming. 21 But I didn't actually connect that that 22 was going to -- that there was any relationship between 23 that and any change in what the activities of the OPP 24 would be. 25 Q: The OPP would carry on as the OPP
1231 were going to carry on. That was your -- 2 A: Well I had -- yes, I assumed that 3 they would. 4 Q: Now on September the 6th -- let me 5 step back. Leslie Kohsed-Currie in September 1995 was a 6 member of the ONAS staff? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what was her role in 1995 at 9 ONAS? 10 A: I believe that she was part of the 11 negotiations group, but I had very little to do with her. 12 So, my interactions with her were very, very minimal on 13 either a professional or personal level, so I could be 14 wrong. 15 I mean, but I think that she was in the 16 negotiations group but I wouldn't have had a lot to do 17 with her. So, I'm not, you know, entirely, you know, 18 entirely sure what she did. 19 Q: Okay. And back in September 1995 you 20 told us I think that -- or 1995, the legal group was, I 21 think, about eight (8) people? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And how many people and, I know only 24 a lawyer will ask you this question, would be -- were in 25 ONAS back in 1995?
1241 How big of a division was it? 2 A: I don't -- a rough guess would be 3 seventy-five (75) or eighty (80) people. I don't know 4 for sure. The numbers fluctuated a lot over time. 5 Q: And in 1995, September of 1995, were 6 the offices of ONAS located in the atrium located at the 7 northeast corner of Dundas Street and Bay Street in the 8 City of Toronto? 9 A: Yes, they're at -- I think it was 590 10 Bay Street. 11 Q: And that was part of the atrium? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And how much space do you recall, in 14 1995, did ONAS have at 590 Bay Street? 15 Was it a big office, did you have more 16 than one (1) floor? 17 A: No, no it was a floor or less. 18 Q: A floor or less? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: Now, as I -- the floor plates in that 21 building, as I recall, run around a central atrium? 22 Are we talking about the same building? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: Yes, it's just that you -- for most
1251 of the offices you had no sense of the atrium. Like it's 2 not like you could see the atrium. It's possible that 3 there was one boardroom that you could see the atrium 4 from, but... 5 Q: But you couldn't -- but as it -- what 6 I'm trying to do is determine if you can, to tell me the 7 physical proximity of your office in the legal services 8 branch, to the negotiations branch where Ms. Kohsed- 9 Currie was located. 10 A: I -- I don't remember where her 11 office is in relation to mine other than it wouldn't have 12 been really close, because all the legal group -- the 13 legal branch people would have been clustered in one 14 area. 15 But, there were at least two (2) 16 boardrooms, maybe three (3) in our -- in our space, 17 because we had a lot of meetings. 18 So, those boardrooms were spread across 19 the space that we had in the floor. So, I mean, some of 20 those boardrooms, one or other of them may have been 21 close to Leslie's office. And I would certainly 22 frequently go to boardrooms -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- because I frequently went to 25 meetings.
1261 Q: And can you tell us, do you recall 2 what floor your office was at 590 Bay back in September 3 1995? 4 A: I can't -- I can't recall. 5 Q: Did you have any discussions with 6 Leslie Kohsed-Currie on September the 6th after the 7 Interministerial Committee meeting? 8 A: No -- no, I did not. 9 Q: Did you tell Leslie Kohsed-Currie 10 that Deb Hutton had said at the meeting that the Premier 11 said to: 12 "Get those fucking Indians out of the 13 Park and use guns if they have to". 14 A: I did not say that to Leslie Kohsed- 15 Currie. 16 Q: Did you say that to anyone -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- on September the 6th? 19 A: I did not -- I did not say that 20 anyone, because those words had not been used at the 21 meeting. So, it -- since I hadn't heard that, I wouldn't 22 have repeated something that was not accurate. 23 Q: And you don't -- and did you have any 24 interaction that you can recall with Leslie Kohsed- 25 Currie --
1271 A: No. 2 Q: -- on September 6th. 3 A: I'm almost positive that I had no 4 interaction with her, because she was not involved in 5 this issue nor did I have a personal relationship with 6 her. 7 So, I would have been focussing on talking 8 to people who I had to talk to, to get the fairly large 9 number of tasks done that were my responsibility. And I 10 really wouldn't have talked to anyone else, and it's not 11 my practice to, kind of, just chat casually with people 12 about things that have happened in meetings. 13 Q: And I anticipate that we will hear 14 evidence that some members of the ONAS staff went out for 15 lunch after the Interministerial Committee meeting and 16 where Ms. Kohsed-Currie may have been at. 17 Do you -- did you go a lunch after the -- 18 the meeting, the Interministerial Committee meeting? 19 A: I'm sure that I did not, because I 20 would not have had time to do anything except grab a 21 sandwich and eat at my desk. 22 Q: Okay. Then once you learned, either 23 from Ron Fox or Larry Taman or Yan Lazor that the 24 instructions were to seek an ex parte injunction, what 25 did you do?
1281 A: I would have talked to either 2 Elizabeth or Tim McCabe who were preparing the injunction 3 materials to advise them of the change. 4 Q: Okay. And is it -- and from you said 5 earlier you would have done that after you had confirmed 6 or received advice from either Larry Taman or Yan Lazor? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now if I could take you for a moment, 9 please, to Tab 28 of the Book of Documents in front of 10 you and this is Inquiry Document 3000565. 11 And this is a memorandum to you from David 12 -- Dave Carson and it's dated September 6th, 1995 and 13 it's subject is, Burial Sites? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And this is the Dave Carson who 16 attended the meeting on the morning of September the 6th 17 and spoke about the Cemetery Act and the burial grounds-- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- issue? And did you receive this 20 memorandum from Mr. Carson, David Carson? 21 A: Yes, I received it on September the 22 6th. 23 Q: And the -- do you recall when you 24 received the memorandum in relation to the -- the 25 Interministerial meeting?
1291 A: I can't recall precisely. I know 2 that I would have asked him to find out as much as he 3 could prior to the meeting, but whether he had this -- 4 the memo in this final form or not by the time of the 5 meeting I'm not sure. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: But he would have given it to me, you 8 know, sometime that day and I probably would have 9 discussed it with him sometime after the meeting, just 10 because there was no time before the meeting because I 11 had been involved in the meetings with Larry Taman and 12 with the Minister. 13 Q: Okay. Excuse me for a minute. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Before I forget I would ask that 22 Inquiry Document 3000565 be marked as the next exhibit, 23 please? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-652, Your Honour. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you.
1301 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-652: Document Number 3000565 2 Memorandum from David Carson 3 to Julie Jai re. Burial 4 sites, Sept 06/'95. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And could I ask you to turn to Tab 8 58. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Actually I'll come back -- I'll come 11 back to that later. I'd ask you to turn to Tab 29. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And this appears to be an e-mail from 14 you to -- 15 A: To Yan Lazor, Michelle Fordyce, and 16 Frances Noronha who was Larry Taman's EA. 17 Q: And the date is Wednesday, September 18 6th, 1995 at 12:54 p.m. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And did your e-mail system back -- 21 the Government e-mail -- sorry, the Ministry of the 22 Attorney General's e-mail system, back in 1995, record 23 the time on which a message was sent? 24 A: I believe that this was fairly 25 accurate in terms of the time. I know some of them have
1311 not been -- like some of the Inquiry documents we've seen 2 from other ministries had inaccurate times. But I 3 believe this is fairly accurate. 4 Q: And so this is a report to the 5 recipients of this e-mail with respect to the meeting 6 with the minister and the Interministerial meeting? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I would ask that this document, 9 which is Inquiry Document 1011762, be marked the next 10 exhibit, Commissioner. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-653, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO: P-653: Document Number 1011762. 14 E-mail Memorandum from Julie 15 Jai re. Ipperwash Update, 16 Sept 06/'95. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And at 12:54 p.m. you're reporting on 20 the -- in the second paragraph it says: 21 "The agreed upon direction from the 22 minister and deputy following a 23 discussion between the Minister and the 24 Premier was the following: 25 We will apply for a civil injunction
1321 ASAP. 2 The goal is to remove the occupiers 3 from the Park ASAP. 4 Public safety (including safety of the 5 OPP and MNR staff) is key." 6 And can I ask you, firstly, have I read 7 that correctly? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And secondly, there's a reference in 10 the first line: 11 "Following a discussion between the 12 minister and the Premier." 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And what was the source of that 15 information? 16 A: I believe that, and I can't say 100 17 percent. So this is just kind of reconstructing. That 18 when we were in the meeting briefing the minister, that 19 he left the room briefly and went to speak to the 20 Premier. And then returned to our briefing. 21 But I can't -- I can't say I recall this 22 with, you know, 100 percent. 23 Q: So it's your belief that when you 24 were at -- at the legislative building in the room close 25 to the cabinet room I think you told us?
1331 A: Yes. It was in the anteroom just 2 very close to the cabinet room. 3 Q: And Mr. Harnick left and then came 4 back? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: But at this point in time it was your 7 belief that the injunction being sought was a regular 8 injunction, albeit on short notice? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And, in fact, in item number 2 -- 11 under number 2 the heading, "The Injunction," it reads: 12 "Tim McCabe advised that we do not have 13 grounds for an ex parte injunction. 14 However, we will take steps to have an 15 injunction heard ASAP and could 16 possibly get before judge in Sarnia as 17 early as this Friday. 18 Tim and others are working on the 19 interim injunction application post 20 haste." 21 A: Right. 22 Q: So at this point, at 12:54, it's your 23 understanding that it's going to be an interim 24 injunction, although it's on short notice? 25 A: Yes.
1341 Q: And with respect to injunctions as a 2 -- have you been involved in the course of your practice 3 and in the course of your service with the Provincial 4 Government in injunction applications? 5 A: No. I've never prepared them myself. 6 Q: And so with respect to the advice 7 about civil injunctions, you were taking the advice of 8 Mr. McCabe and -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- Ms. Christie? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Then at the next tab, Tab 30 -- 13 A: Would you mind if I moved to the 14 seated position right now or -- 15 Q: No, that's fine. That's fine. 16 A: Okay. It won't mess up the cameras. 17 Okay I'm just going to move. 18 Q: And anytime you would like to do 19 that, Ms. Jai, it's fine. It's -- we've provided the 20 podium and the chair so that you can move back and forth 21 as necessary. 22 A: Okay. Thank you. 23 Q: We just have to make sure that the 24 microphone switch -- 25 A: Okay. Is that -- is that
1351 registering? 2 Q: We're back -- we're back on track. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: At Tab 30 is Inquiry Document 5 1003305, it's an e-mail from you to Yan Lazor, Michelle 6 Fordyce and I can't remember the third person. 7 A: Oh, Frances Noronha. 8 Q: And Frances Noronha is the 9 assistant -- 10 A: Of Larry's -- 11 Q: -- to the -- 12 A: -- EA. 13 Q: Larry -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Larry Taman. And this was sent on 16 September the 6th at 5:36 p.m.? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And why did you send this e-mail to 19 Mr. Lazor -- Lazor, Ms. Fordyce and the EA to Larry 20 Taman? 21 A: Well it's just a further update so, 22 of two (2) fairly significant things. One is that this 23 meeting that was to occur at noon between the OPP and the 24 occupiers did not take place, because we had been hoping 25 that we would get information from that meeting.
1361 And then, secondly, is updating them on 2 the injunction that Tim and Elizabeth actually were able 3 to get a court date the next day, which is very quick, 4 that's the Thursday, and are applying for an ex parte 5 injunction. 6 By this time Yan would already know that 7 the decision had been made to go ex parte, but he 8 wouldn't necessarily know that they had a court date for 9 the very next day. 10 So those are two (2) sort of new pieces of 11 information that I wanted to communicate to them. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Since my goal was -- my role involved 14 keeping everybody up to date. 15 Q: And I note that you refer to a police 16 officer, second in command for the Ipperwash incident, 17 will attend to give viva voce evidence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And beyond that the police officer 20 was second in command, did you know who the police 21 officer was? 22 A: Well, I believe I knew at the time. 23 I can't recall now. 24 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 25 the next exhibit, Commissioner.
1371 THE REGISTRAR: P-654, Your Honour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 654. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And that's Inquiry 4 document 1003305, an e-mail from Julie Jai to Yan Lazor, 5 Michelle Fordyce and Larry Taman's executive assistant 6 and it's dated September 6th at 5:36 p.m. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-654: Document Number 1003305. 9 E-mail memorandum from Julie 10 Jai to Yan Lazor re. Update 11 on Ipperwash, Sept 06/'95. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now I note that there's some cc's, 15 one Prondana -- Prodan which is from what you told us 16 earlier was Anna -- 17 A: Anna Prodanou. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: And -- 20 Q: Karen P? 21 A: Karen, she was Yan's assistant. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: I can't remember her last name. 24 Q: And then EX, exec? 25 A: Oh, that would be, I guess, the whole
1381 executive group within -- just within ONAS. 2 Q: And on the morning of September the 3 6th, another morning, was it your practice to -- did you, 4 on September the 6th, leave an e-mail message for persons 5 involved in this situation with an update as to what was 6 going on? 7 A: Sorry, on the -- 8 Q: On the morning of September the 6th? 9 A: Did I send an e-mail? 10 Q: Not an e-mail, a voice mail? 11 A: When you say persons involved, do you 12 mean the Interministerial Committee or -- 13 Q: Persons involved, Scott Hutchison, 14 Tim McCabe? 15 A: Well, sorry, I'm not sure what -- I 16 understand what period -- 17 Q: I'm not making myself clear -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: You see that lawyers sometimes don't 20 ask clear questions. Was it -- did -- back in September 21 of 1995, did you have a practice of communicating with 22 people that you had to communicate with, by the use of a 23 voicemail broadcast? 24 A: I have done voicemail broadcasts, but 25 only on rare occasions. I think in a situation like
1391 this, like if I was just talking -- you know, 2 communicating to, let's say Elizabeth and Tim about the 3 injunction, I would have just called them both and left 4 detailed voice mail messages. 5 Are you going to return to P-643, that's 6 at Tab 29, the e-mail, the update that I sent? 7 Q: P-653, I will. 8 A: No, 643, I think. 9 Q: The e-mail to Ms. -- 10 A: Yeah, the 12:54 e-mail. 11 Q: That's P-653. 12 A: Oh, it's 653, I'm sorry. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Because I just notice that, like, one 15 of the things that I talk about in the e-mail which is -- 16 kind of gives a little bit more of the flavour of the 17 meeting than my actual notes. 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: Because I'm -- by this time I've sort 20 of processed the information and I'm communicating what I 21 think, you know, happened at the meeting. And I'm trying 22 to convey the key elements. So under, "Communications," 23 where we -- after the main communication's messages would 24 -- will be. 25 And then I say that:
1401 "One is that AG has been instructed to 2 seek an injunction as soon as possible. 3 That police have been asked to remove 4 the occupiers from the Park. That 5 public safety and removing the 6 trespassers from the Park are the key 7 objectives. 8 [then in brackets after that I say] 9 (It was agreed at the meeting after 10 much discussion that the Government 11 cannot direct the OPP to lay charges 12 and although it can request that they 13 remove the occupiers, how and when they 14 do so is a matter of police 15 discretion.) 16 It was also agreed that the OPP on the 17 ground are in the best position to 18 assess the risk and determine when and 19 how to act. Charges have been laid 20 regarding specific incidents and will 21 continue to be laid. The OPP will be 22 advised as to their legal options, such 23 as the mischief charge under the 24 Criminal Code and then it is up to them 25 as to how to proceed."
1411 So, I think this just indicates, 2 especially just the way I've worded it, after much 3 discussion that it was agreed at the meeting that this 4 was a point that was discussed carefully at the meeting. 5 And it was only after much discussion that 6 we were able to arrive at the consensus that we did and 7 the, sort of, clarity as to the fact that the Government 8 cannot direct the OPP. 9 Q: Okay. And when you say in that 10 paragraph that you just read, the OPP will be advised as 11 their legal options such as the mischief charge and the 12 Criminal Code and then it is up to them as to how to 13 proceed. What's the reference to the OPP will be advised 14 as to their legal options? Who is going to do that? 15 A: I would think it would have been 16 Scott Hutchison. 17 Q: Do you know that -- 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: Okay. And is there anything else in 20 Exhibit P-653 that you would like to draw to our 21 attention, the Commissioner's attention? 22 A: I think everything else has already 23 been covered in other discussions that we, you know, 24 again Tim McCabe reiterates that we do not have grounds 25 for an ex parte injunction. But we've covered that.
1421 Q: And on page -- above -- under, 2 "Communications," as well it's noted that: 3 "The OPP will continue to be the 4 spokesperson on the ground. MNR will 5 continue to be the spokesperson as the 6 landowner and steward of the Park. 7 Political staff were meeting after our 8 meeting to develop a communication plan 9 and advise ministers as they left 10 cabinet. 11 Deb Hutton indicated that the Premier 12 would be willing to speak on the 13 issue." 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And so that -- that was another 16 matter the political staff were going to develop a 17 communications plan and advise their respective 18 ministers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So by this time as we -- by the end 21 of the meeting as we saw in the notes, the MNR had 22 changed its position and had agreed that it would be the 23 lead spokesperson with respect to the issue. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And Ms. Hutton said as well that the
1431 Premier was prepared to speak? 2 A: Yes. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps that would be 4 an appropriate time to break for lunch, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Break for 6 lunch now. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 8 adjourned until 1:20 p.m. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 12:08 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 1:23 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 afternoon. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Good afternoon, Ms. Jai. Now before 22 lunch we were on September the 6th and one question that 23 I neglected to ask you was, did anyone tell you why there 24 had been a change from a regular injunction on short 25 notice to an ex parte injunction?
1441 A: No. No one told me. 2 Q: And if you would turn to Tab 10 of 3 the black book, your telephone log -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- Exhibit P-644. And on September 6 the 6th there's an entry -- 7 A: Yes. John Donolley (phonetic), 8 DIAND, Regional Director's office. 9 Q: Yes. What was -- now he's with the 10 Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And why -- were you calling him or 13 did he call you? 14 A: I don't know if I called him or he 15 called me but I was in touch with the local -- DIAND is 16 also called INAC. They have these two (2) related 17 acronyms. 18 And I had been in touch with them over the 19 last several days about the occupation since the Army 20 Base was also being occupied and that was clearly a 21 Federal matter. 22 Q: And what were you in contact with 23 them about? 24 A: I can't recall. 25 Q: Okay. Then on September the 6th, did
1451 you review the injunction material prepared by Mr. McCabe 2 and Ms. Christie? 3 A: I believe I saw it. I can't remember 4 if I reviewed it in the sense of like my sign-off being 5 necessary for it. I -- I may have just been passed a 6 copy of it. 7 Q: Okay. But you didn't need to sign- 8 off on the -- on the material? 9 A: No. I don't think I had to sign-off 10 on it. 11 Q: Okay. And in the normal course of 12 events, would someone at MAG have to sign-off on it or 13 was that left to Mr. McCabe and Ms. Christie? 14 A: Well that -- I'm not sure that would 15 be up to Mr. McCabe to determine what the approvals -- 16 like whether the deputy had to be -- to sign-off or the 17 director of the Crown Law Office Civil, I don't know, 18 that would be their internal processes. 19 Q: And I would ask you to go Tab 32. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this is a fax from you to Tim -- 22 A: Trow. 23 Q: Trow -- T-R-O-W? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Dated September 6th, 1995 and the fax
1461 cover sheet says: 2 "Please review this ASAP and confirm 3 that this is a proper notice under 4 Trespass to Property Act. Request from 5 Barry and me - needed." 6 A: Yeah. I don't know -- this is 7 actually not my writing. 8 Q: Oh. 9 A: Although, it says that it's from me. 10 So it's on one of my fax cover sheets, but someone else 11 sent it. 12 Now, it's possible that, you know, it was 13 my secretary writing this, you know, on my behalf after 14 I'd said something to her or, you know, I'm not really 15 sure. But, I didn't write that note. 16 Q: And attached to it is a copy of a 17 September 4th, 1995 document addressed, "To Whom It May 18 Concern", signed by Les Kobayashi? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And had you seen this notice which is 21 actually part of Exhibit P-459? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And were you concerned or would this 24 -- Ms. Leith Hunter was in -- was not in your office? 25 A: No, she was in MNR Legal Services.
1471 Q: And who was Tim Trow? 2 A: He was a lawyer, and I actually can't 3 remember where he was at this time as he has been in a 4 number of different branches or -- or ministries of the 5 Ontario Government. So, I don't know why this was being 6 sent to him because I'm not sure what his -- what office 7 he was working in at this time. 8 Q: But he was a public servant -- 9 A: He was a lawyer and a public servant. 10 Q: And... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: On September the 6th after your e- 15 mail that we looked at just before lunch at approximately 16 five o'clock to Yan Lazor and Ms. Fordyce, which I can't 17 seem to put my finger on right now. It's at Tab 30, 18 Exhibit P-654, and it's dated 5:36. Do you -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recall if you did anything 21 else that evening with respect to this matter? 22 A: I can't recall what happened after 23 5:36. 24 Q: And when did you learn and how did 25 you learn of the tragedy at Ipperwash Provincial Park?
1481 A: I received a phone call at home from 2 Ron Fox at about 4:30 in the morning. 3 Q: And would you please turn to Tab 45 4 of the Book of Documents? It's Inquiry Document Number 5 1012542? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I missed the 7 tab number. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 45, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 45. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And are these your notes, Ms. Jai? 13 A: Yes. Yes, they are. 14 Q: And are these notes that were made 15 on, or about -- on September the 7th? 16 A: Yes, they were made on September the 17 7th. 18 Q: And I -- there's a note: 19 "4:50 a.m. Ron Fox called." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you recall what Ron Fox told 22 you when he called you on the morning of September the 23 7th? 24 A: Yes, he said that there had been an 25 incident at Ipperwash Provincial Park and that there had
1491 been a fatality and that an -- an Aboriginal person had 2 been killed. And he didn't want to give too many details 3 over the phone at that point but he wanted to alert me to 4 the fact that this had occurred. 5 Q: And the -- how was -- how did Mr. Fox 6 appear over the phone to you? 7 A: Oh, he appeared upset that this had 8 happened, like, sort of agitated. I can't remember if he 9 said something to the effect of that he -- I mean because 10 he sometimes says to me when he's on the phone that he's 11 on a cell phone and so he doesn't want to say too much 12 because it's not secure. 13 So, I can't remember if he said that at 14 this time but he was somewhat cryptic or I didn't want -- 15 he -- he didn't want to give details at that time other 16 than the sort of the bare bones that there had been a 17 fatality. 18 Q: Okay. And did you -- was there any 19 discussion about advising other people in the Government? 20 A: Yes, yes. I mean I indicated that I 21 would contact the people in, you know, my deputy minister 22 and my -- Dave Moran from the Minister's Office. 23 Q: And your deputy minister being Larry 24 Taman? 25 A: Yes.
1501 Q: And the sheet of paper that we have - 2 - did you have a book at home or did you have a piece of 3 paper that you made these notes on? 4 Did you make the notes contemporaneously 5 or later when you got to the office? 6 A: I made them some time that morning, 7 so I don't think it would have been contemp -- I don't 8 think it was at 4:50 a.m. when Ron Fox called, that I 9 made the notes, but I think it was some time around 7:00 10 a.m. Like, within a few hours of that first phone call. 11 Q: Okay. And at approximately 5:30 a.m. 12 you called Dave Moran? 13 A: Yes. Yes, I would have made these 14 notes because I don't have my phone log at home, it's at 15 work, and I realized that I was making these calls and I 16 wanted to have a record of them. 17 So, I did reach Dave Moran at 5:30 and he 18 said he would call the Minister at 6:00. And I also 19 called Larry Taman right after I called Dave, but his 20 line was busy and was busy for the next hour or so when I 21 kept trying to call him. 22 Q: Did you ultimately speak to Larry 23 Taman that morning? 24 A: Well, not before I went into work so 25 not before 7:00 a.m.
1511 Q: And when you went into work, had he 2 been already made aware about -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- what -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- happened? 7 A: Yes. I -- and I assumed that he had 8 heard from, perhaps, Elaine Todres or, you know, one of 9 the other deputies who had been informed. 10 Q: And then there's a note: 11 "6:30 a.m. spoke to Ron Fox again." 12 Or is that -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- 6:20? 15 A: Well, it's either 6:20 or 6:30. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And then the notes on the right hand 18 side of the page are the notes of that conversation with 19 Ron. And that says 6:20 a.m. and that's Thursday, 20 September 7th. It is September 7th, though I see it 21 doesn't -- the number 7 doesn't show up on the note, but 22 that is when it was. 23 And the note of my conversation with Ron 24 reads: 25 "Officers were on County Road,
1521 encountered some First Nation people. 2 Shots were fired at officers by the 3 individuals. Shots returned. One (1) 4 First Nation person dead, two (2) 5 injured. 6 These were people who were occupying 7 the Park. Highway 21 is being blocked 8 apparently (allegedly as a form of 9 protest for the Base not being turned 10 over)." 11 And then another comment: 12 "Deb Hutton doesn't think much of the 13 Interministerial group. Deputy 14 Solicitor General [that's Elaine 15 Todres] and the OPP Commissioner are 16 coming in. 17 Will be involved in a meeting at 7:00 18 a.m. with Premier's office staff." 19 And then below that there's a note that 20 I've written that what: 21 "What was the time of the incident? 22 11:30 p.m. according to the media." 23 Q: And then there's a note... 24 A: At the very bottom, just an arrow 25 that says "Dave Moran".
1531 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: That's all. 5 Q: Dave Moran. And the printing, 6 September 7? '95; I take it that's not yours? 7 A: No, no. That must have been someone 8 sorting through the documents trying to identify the date 9 of this document. 10 Q: And then after these phone calls, you 11 went into the office -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- and perhaps, Commissioner, before 14 I forget we should mark Inquiry Document 1012542 as the 15 next exhibit, sir? 16 THE REGISTRAR: Isn't that P-516? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Pardon me? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What was 19 that? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Is this -- 21 THE REGISTRAR: Would that be 516? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Let me just double 23 check. Oh, it's P-516. It's already marked, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-516, is 25 what the number is?
1541 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-516. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now, before -- the reference to Dave 5 Moran at the bottom, do you know what that refers to? 6 A: No, just something that I wanted to 7 remember, like, something that I wanted to trigger in my 8 mind to call him about or talk to him about. 9 Q: Okay. And what time did you get into 10 the office on September the 7th? 11 A: At 7:00 a.m. 12 Q: And what did you do when you arrived 13 in your office? 14 A: Well, I started contacting some 15 additional people who I felt should be informed of this 16 incident. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: So I made a number of phone calls and 19 there are actually -- were people already at the office, 20 as I recall, at that point. 21 Q: And at Tab 46 there's a document, an 22 Ipperwash To Do List, Inquiry Document 1011837. And is 23 that a document you prepared? Or that you've seen 24 before? 25 A: I've seen it before and it has
1551 handwritten notes on it that are my notes. 2 Q: Okay. Do you know who prepared this 3 list? 4 A: I'm just reading it now to see if it 5 was, in fact, my note. Yeah, it probably was me. 6 Although I'm surprised -- the thing that is a bit odd is 7 it says, "September 7, 1995" and then under it has this 8 number thirteen ten (1310) which I have no idea what that 9 number is. And I -- I'm not -- did not use that kind of 10 numbering system. 11 Q: But the handwriting on this document 12 is your handwriting? 13 A: The handwriting is my handwriting. 14 Q: And the -- could you read to us what 15 the first entry in the right hand column is by -- in 16 handwriting, by paragraph number 4 please? 17 A: Yes. Well program number 4 talks 18 about: 19 "Set up an improved early warning 20 system, e.g., a standardized format for 21 reporting possible emergencies and 22 information and getting that to Yan who 23 would vet and assess -- assess it 24 before passing onto the nerve centre. 25 And then the -- my handwritten is:
1561 "All to go through me to the nerve 2 centre." 3 And then it's sort cutoff so I can't read 4 it. But it says: 5 "Yan." 6 And then something else underneath that. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: But, so by this time whatever time of 9 day this was on September 7th, the nerve centre had 10 already been established, which was this sort of senior 11 group of deputies who were going to be managing the 12 incident. 13 Q: Okay. And perhaps, well we might 14 mark this as the next exhibit, sir. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-655, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-655: Document Number 1011837. 18 Ipperwash - To do list with 19 handwritten notes, Sept 20 7/'95. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And the note at the bottom, that's in 24 your handwriting as well? 25 A: Yes, it is. And it says:
1571 "No material to political staff. Talk 2 to Scott P. re distribution. Send 3 stuff to Frances for David Moran." 4 So just -- but like the last note: 5 "Send stuff to Frances for David 6 Moran." 7 That -- Frances is the deputy's EA. 8 So that means that rather than dealing 9 directly with David Moran, who is the minister's EA, and 10 I had been dealing directly with him the past, that from 11 now on I was suppose to send material for political -- 12 political staff person like him, through the deputy's 13 office. 14 And like Frances is the deputy's executive 15 assistant. 16 Q: And that's Frances -- 17 A: Noronha. 18 Q: Noronha? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And then there's e-mail to -- 21 A: E-mail to staff. 22 Q: And that's checked so that means you 23 did that? 24 A: So I would have done an e-mail to 25 staff explaining that this unfortunate incident had
1581 occurred. 2 Q: Now can you tell us -- I've probably 3 have gotten ahead of myself by going to what is now P- 4 655, but the -- did you meet with Mr. Lazor or Mr. Taman 5 on the morning of September the 7th? 6 A: I'm sure that I did meet with Yan. I 7 can't remember if I met with Larry or just talked to him. 8 Q: Okay. And could you turn please to 9 Tab 38 of the Book of Documents? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's two (2) sets of notes. 12 It's Inquiry Document 1011834. And are these notes in 13 your handwriting? 14 A: Yes, they are. 15 Q: And the first set of notes is four 16 (4) pages. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then the second set of notes is 19 two (2) pages and I believe that the second set of notes 20 comes before the first set. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us what these notes 23 refer to? 24 A: This was -- these -- this was from a 25 meeting that I would have had shortly after I arrived at
1591 ONAS, the morning of September the 7th so -- with Yan and 2 others. It appears that Larry was at that meeting. 3 Q: And "Larry" is Larry Taman? 4 A: That's Larry Taman, yeah. 5 And we were just discussing what to do. 6 So the first note, it says: 7 "The incident itself is being handled 8 by the OPP and the SIU [that's the 9 Special Investigations Unit] and that 10 the Solicitor General and OPP are 11 responsible for communication and no 12 one else should talk to the press. 13 [Item 2] The occupation is being 14 handled by the Interministerial 15 Committee." 16 And then 3 is the road blockade. 17 And then the next line says: 18 "Committee meeting?" 19 In other words, should there be a meeting 20 of the Interministerial Committee. Then the next note 21 says: 22 "Information sharing. Coordinated 23 communications. Ensure that civil 24 servants are aware of and supporting 25 political direction."
1601 So that would be a reason in favour of 2 having one (1) of the Committee meetings. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: And then also that there could be an 5 update on number 1 which was the incident, two (2) which 6 is the occupation including the injunction and who will 7 do the communications around the injunction, three (3) 8 the road blockade and four (4) possible mirror incidents. 9 Then there's a note: 10 "Possibly strike a small subgroup." 11 Q: Then there's also note beside number 12 4: 13 "Possible mirror incidents." 14 Then there's a line: 15 "Contingency Plan." 16 A: Right. 17 Q: Line: 18 "ONAS will do." 19 A: Yeah, that ONAS will prepare a 20 contingency plan or some sort of analysis about the risk 21 of possible mirror incidents. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Then it says, "Larry." So this is 24 Larry talking and he says that: 25 "At 9:00 a.m. there will be a meeting
1611 with the ministers and the Premier's 2 office staff." 3 And that Larry would be attending. 4 "1. Will try establish a command post 5 to establish a single post for 6 communications and operational 7 decisions. 8 2. Will try to get a minister briefed; 9 a single government spokesperson - 10 Solicitor General." 11 So, that's who he's suggesting would be 12 the single government spokesperson. 13 "3. We will be asked about a 14 preparedness plan for other possible 15 incidents." 16 Q: And the preparedness plan relates 17 to -- 18 A: That would be -- 19 Q: -- what? 20 A: -- like this contingency, the same -- 21 the -- the item we had noted earlier that ONAS will be 22 doing a contingency plan, dealing with possible mirror 23 incidents. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: So that would be like preparing a
1621 list of other -- other areas where there might be direct 2 action of some kind -- 3 Q: And -- 4 A: -- like protests or blockades. 5 Q: And would -- was it contemplated at 6 this meeting that that contingency plan or preparedness 7 plan would include the responses to such a mirror 8 incident if it took place? 9 A: That wasn't really clear at this 10 meeting. 11 Q: Okay. Then... 12 A: Then Larry is asking what should the 13 role of the Interministerial Committee be and he also 14 says: 15 "Should we be establishing contact with 16 the native leadership, i.e. to prevent 17 mirror incidents?" 18 Q: And when the reference to, "native 19 leadership," did you discuss the leadership who might be 20 contacted? 21 A: I don't think so because I have a 22 feeling that this was a fairly brief meeting, like that 23 there was time pressure because Larry had to get over to 24 this 9:00 a.m. meeting. 25 Q: Okay.
1631 A: So I don't think that we -- we went 2 into it in detail, that we didn't discuss names. 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: Then Larry's comment was that he 5 feels that the police and the Blockade Committee should 6 provide advice and then -- and contact the DM's before 7 they link to political staff and he feels that -- 8 Q: "DM'S" are deputy ministers? 9 A: Deputy ministers. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: That he feels that political staff 12 should eventually be removed from the Committee and Larry 13 Taman will work on that. And then it says at the bottom: 14 "Report to Larry Taman hourly." 15 Q: And then at the top it says: 16 "10:30 a.m. Blockades Committee 17 meeting?" 18 A: Yes, so we've decided to have a 19 meeting and have it at 10:30 a.m. that morning. 20 Q: And then on the right-hand side 21 beside that -- 22 A: It just says: 23 "People should come with information." 24 In other words that I would ask them to be 25 briefed as much as possible.
1641 Q: And, Commissioner, I would ask that 2 this -- these two (2) pages of Inquiry Document 1011834 3 be marked as the next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-656, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-656: Document Number 1011834 Julie 7 Jai's Handwritten notes RE: 8 I.M.C. Meeting, Pages 1 & 2. 9 Sept 07/'95. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And then if we could turn to the 13 first four (4) pages of Inquiry Document 1011834, it's 14 got at the top, "Interministerial Committee Meeting," and 15 what do these notes relate to, Ms. Jai? 16 A: These were the notes that I took of 17 the Interministerial Blockades Committee meeting. 18 Q: On September 7th? 19 A: On September the 7th. Presumably at 20 10:30 a.m. 21 Q: And did you chair this meeting? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And can you -- what do you 24 remember of this meeting separate and apart from the 25 notes?
1651 A: Very little, except that there was 2 this atmosphere of intense pressure to try to cover off 3 everything possible. Like to manage the, you know, the 4 communications around the incident that had occurred to 5 prevent things from escalating within the Park. 6 To try to anticipate and prevent any 7 mirror or other incidents elsewhere in the Province to 8 get a handle on where all of the possible hot spots are. 9 And to try to just manage everything and get all this 10 information and all, kind of, instantly. Because I mean 11 as you saw from my previous note, Larry had said he 12 wanted me to report to him, hourly, on what was 13 happening. 14 So there was a lot of pressure and stress 15 and I think people were also shocked and upset that 16 somebody had been killed over what we had all -- well 17 most of us had felt was a peaceful occupation of a 18 provincial park. 19 Q: And do you recall today who attended 20 the Interministerial meeting on the morning of September 21 the 7th? 22 A: I can't remember who attended except 23 Ron Fox but I don't know who else. I can't remember who 24 was there. 25 Q: And --
1661 A: I think there were a number of people 2 from ONAS who were there. 3 Q: And I take it Ron Vrancart, the 4 Deputy Minister of MNR was there? 5 A: Yes. It appears that Vrancart and 6 Larry Taman were at this meeting which is quite 7 exceptional. Because normally they wouldn't be at this 8 meeting. 9 Q: And do you recall if there were 10 minutes -- typed minutes made up of this meeting? 11 A: I can't recall if there were. I know 12 that we had so many things to do as a result of this 13 meeting which all had to be done urgently within, you 14 know, a very short time frame. So I can't remember if we 15 did formal minutes or not. 16 Q: Do you recall if -- 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: The -- perhaps -- do you recall, if 21 at this meeting -- Ms. Hutton was at the meeting? 22 A: I can't recall. 23 Q: Can you just -- using your notes, can 24 you tell us what happened at the meeting? 25 A: Okay. As I said what I recall the
1671 most is that there were more ONAS people there than, you 2 know, that there were a high percentage of the people at 3 the meeting were from ONAS and that Ron Fox was there. 4 And then my notes indicate that Ron 5 Vrancart and Larry Taman were there. So other than that 6 I don't have any recollection of who was at the meeting. 7 Q: Could I take you to Tab 2 for the 8 moment? There's some handwritten notes. 9 A: Tab 2? 10 Q: Tab 2. Could you keep your finger on 11 both tabs at the same time? It's Inquiry Document 12 1003525. This refers to a small working group. That's 13 something separate than the Interministerial Committee 14 meeting? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. So that's -- I thought that 17 might assist. So that's something different than this, 18 so we'll go back to -- 19 A: Well -- I mean what I'm -- I can't -- 20 I don't know if it was different from this because it was 21 at this time when Larry started to get more directly 22 involved in managing it and when he made the -- you know, 23 gave direction that we were not to communicate directly 24 with political staff and that they shouldn't be on the 25 Interministerial Committee.
1681 It was around this time that the -- the 2 Interministerial Committee was, kind of, renamed or 3 reformulated and kind of reconstituted and eventually 4 called The Support Group I think, but it became a 5 smaller, kind of, working group. 6 So. it's possible that these notes at Tab 7 2 -- I mean that is the core, those -- it is -- those are 8 the people who are -- were on that smaller working group, 9 which had various names, as I said, Support Group, 10 Working Group. It was the former Emergency Planning 11 Group but stripped of the political staff and was a 12 smaller group. And that was a change that Larry had 13 directed. 14 Q: Okay. Perhaps what we'll do is go 15 back to Tab 38 and go through those notes and then come 16 back to the notes at Tab 2. 17 A: Okay. Okay. So this was the meeting 18 we think at 10:30 a.m., and I'm just going to go through 19 my notes and I really will be just basing everything from 20 my notes. I've already told you everything that I 21 independently recollect. 22 So, the notes say that Ron Vrancart said - 23 - says -- tells us that a nerve centre or command centre 24 is to be established, and I know that that was the three 25 (3) key deputies who constituted that nerve centre.
1691 Q: That would be -- 2 A: That would be Ron Vrancart, Larry 3 Taman, and Elaine Todres. 4 Q: And before we go on could you go back 5 up to the top, there's a note, Key people to contact? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what does that refer to? 8 A: These are Aboriginal leaders who we - 9 - well, it's possible who I felt that these were the key 10 people to contact and I just made a list, prior to the 11 meeting started -- starting. 12 Q: And the people that you put on this 13 list were -- 14 A: The chief of the Kettle Point First 15 Nation, Ovide Mercredi, Gord Peters, and Joe Hare. 16 Q: And they were Mr. Mercredi and Mr. 17 Peters and Mr. Hare were leaders of different important-- 18 A: Yes, like Gord Peters was the head of 19 the Chiefs of Ontario and I believe Ovide Mercredi was 20 the head of the ASN at the time and I believe Joe Hare 21 was a Regional Chief, but I can't remember for sure. 22 Q: Okay. And he may have been the head 23 of the Union of Ontario Indians? 24 A: That's possible. 25 Q: Okay. At any rate, these three (3)
1701 gentlemen, and plus, were leaders of various Aboriginal 2 groups that you felt should be contacted? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, as well, Chief Bressette at 5 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Back to Ron Vrancart and 8 there's a note on the right-hand side. Perhaps we could 9 just give this an exhibit number, it'd probably be 10 easier, sir? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-657, Your Honour. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And so the -- it's 13 four (4) pages and -- that form part of Inquiry Document 14 1011834, dated September 7, 1995 with the heading, 15 "Interministerial Committee Meeting." 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-657: Document Number 1011834. 18 Julie Jai's handwritten notes 19 RE: I.M.C Meeting, 4 Pages, 20 Sept 07/'95 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Excuse me, Ms. Jai, if we could -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- go back to, "Central
1711 communications?" 2 A: Okay. So the -- the nerve centre was 3 to be established. Central Communications are being 4 discussed there. We should feed in our -- feed in our 5 advice to them. 6 So, this was Ron really talking about the 7 relationship between the, sort of, staff level committee 8 and the deputy's level nerve centre that was now being 9 put into place. 10 And then Larry Taman said that his 11 position of the Blockades Committee, that's the Emergency 12 staff Level Committee, as being advisory, that Elaine 13 Todres is in charge of the nerve centre. And then 14 there's a question: 15 "Appoint person for communications?" 16 Like who will be the point person for 17 communications and that we agree that Ron Fox will be the 18 contact for -- for the operational perspective. 19 Q: And what does that refer to? 20 A: I assume that refers to OPP 21 operational issues. Then Ron says -- 22 Q: Is that Ron Vrancart? 23 A: It must be, it's certainly not Ron 24 Fox. He says that he -- he has people at MNR tuning up 25 their intelligence network and will feed information to
1721 Ron and I assume that that second "Ron" is Ron Fox. 2 Then there's a comment that: 3 "The command centre [that's this nerve 4 centre] will meet this afternoon. The 5 blockades committee will remain an 6 official committee. Political staff 7 input will be through the command 8 centre." 9 Q: So, if I understand that correctly, 10 it'll -- on officials -- by officials committee, it means 11 it'll be simply civil servants? 12 A: Right, no political staff in this 13 reconstituted blockade committee and that the command 14 centre, the deputies, will take care of the input from 15 the political staff. 16 And that -- then there's the question that 17 liaison between the nerve centre and the blockades 18 committee that we need a single point of contact on this. 19 Q: That's at the top of page 2 and -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- who was making that point? 22 A: I don't know who was making -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- that point. And that we also need 25 a single point of contact between Ontario and the Federal
1731 Government, but that the nerve centre is managing the 2 issue. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Then Ron Vrancart says, 5 "Regarding communications re: the 6 Ipperwash incident, it's an operational 7 issue. The OPP has the lead. Much of 8 the reporting of the last twelve (12) 9 hours lacks context. We need to ensure 10 that Solicitor General communications 11 gets the context they need." 12 Q: And does -- was there -- does that 13 assist you in -- with respect to that particular 14 discussion and what that's -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- related to? No? 17 A: No. I would have to say that I am 18 just reading these notes and I am not remembering very 19 much about -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- this meeting. 22 Q: Then "LT", Larry Taman? 23 A: Oh, yes. Larry Taman, he says: 24 "The three (3) ministers were also at 25 the meeting. The goals were one."
1741 And actually, I'm not sure what meeting 2 he's referring to. I guess it was a meeting earlier that 3 morning. 4 Q: Yeah, you had told us about a meeting 5 that Larry Taman was going to go -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- do with the other -- 8 A: And that was going -- 9 Q: -- was Ms. Todres? 10 A: -- to be at nine o'clock, so 11 presumably he's reporting on that meeting, that: 12 "The three (3) ministers were also at 13 the meeting. The goals are accurate 14 information flow, consistent messaging, 15 and a clear focus for decision making. 16 The nerve centre would be run from 17 Elaine Todres' office with Larry Taman, 18 Ron Vrancart, and ministers and 19 Premier's office." 20 And I'm sure that means staff. It doesn't 21 say staff, but representation from minister's office and 22 Premier's office. 23 "So, that that group, the nerve centre, 24 would take care of all of the above 25 three (3) things",
1751 Those three (3) goals that are listed 2 earlier. 3 "That the Solicitor General will be the 4 spokesperson for events on the ground." 5 And then there's a little diagram showing 6 the nerve centre at the top of this, kind of, triangle, 7 "...getting support from the blockades 8 committee [that's the staff committee] 9 which would provide advice on this or 10 related matters, and also getting 11 support from the police for on the 12 ground events." 13 Q: Okay. And then at page 3? 14 A: Then at page 3 at the top it mentions 15 that: 16 "At 5:00 p.m. this afternoon there will 17 be a meeting of the nerve centre that 18 [then it says] preparedness if there 19 are other incidents." 20 It says, "one (1) issue", but it might be, 21 "on issue". I don't know. I can't actually see that -- 22 what -- tell what that says. Then it says: 23 "Blockades group to be public servants 24 only. DM's to manage to the political 25 interface."
1761 The next line says: 2 "Contact between Ontario and Feds 3 through ONAS, but the Feds -- Federal 4 Government, not to be on the blockades 5 committee." 6 Q: Right. 7 A: "Each minister to speak on areas they 8 are responsible for. Standard messages 9 to be worked out by nerve centre. Goal 10 is to minimize public comment at 11 political level. Law and order issue, 12 not native issue." 13 Q: And do you recall today who was 14 speaking at this point? 15 A: No, I don't. I have to say that this 16 meeting is a bit of a blur for me. Like, other meetings 17 I remember more clearly. 18 This -- this was the day that I had gotten 19 the phone call at 4:30 a.m., you know, kind of being 20 awoken very abruptly with this upsetting news, gone into 21 work very early. And then the deputies were sort of 22 suddenly on scene and were taking control and we were 23 just kind of doing -- trying to help do their -- do what 24 they asked us to do. 25 So, it was very different from the
1771 previous meetings which were kind of organized in a more 2 orderly way and where I had been more or less in control. 3 So, for -- and I can even see my writing 4 looks not the same as it does normally, so I was kind of 5 agitated. 6 Q: Okay. So, after line "Law and order 7 issue not native issue", there's a line "ONAS". 8 A: "ONAS, MNR to gather intelligence 9 discreetly. Useful to feed facts into 10 the centre. Larry Taman, ministries, 11 can answer narrow questions within 12 their jurisdiction. Pass callers onto 13 relevant ministries for other issues. 14 Can we prepare questions and answers 15 and a backgrounder and who should 16 answer such questions? 17 Yes, it would be useful for 5:00 p.m. 18 meeting. Don't say anything until 5:00 19 p.m." 20 Q: And what's that referring to? 21 A: Well that would be the deputy saying 22 that they want questions and answers and a backgrounder 23 for their 5:00 p.m. meeting, but that we shouldn't have 24 any public communications until the 5:00 p.m. meeting. 25 Q: Okay.
1781 A: And then on the next page it says: 2 "Kirk Stevens [who is with Solicitor 3 General Communications] will probably 4 be the point person for communications 5 at the nerve centre. 6 [And then] Try to do as much as we can 7 internally by 5:00 p.m. Identify high 8 risk areas. Who will do what when. 9 Develop a preparedness strategy 10 including the prevention part. 11 Separate the enforcement issue from the 12 relationship issue." 13 And then -- 14 Q: And what does that refer to? 15 Enforcement issue from relationship issue? 16 A: I could only speculate so I'd rather 17 not. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Then at the -- then it says, "To do 20 by 5:00 p.m." And this is all stuff I have to get to 21 Larry Taman for his 5:00 p.m. meeting. So one is: 22 "Prepare a preparedness strategy 23 including identification of high risk 24 areas." 25 And then I've listed a bunch of names of
1791 people who I think will help on that. Then secondly -- 2 Q: And that's David Delaney (phonetic), 3 Suzanne, Scott Patrick? 4 A: Yeah. Do you want me to go through 5 all those names? 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: Okay. David Delaney from MNR, 8 Susanna Zagar from ONAS, Scott Patrick from the OPP, 9 myself, Leith Hunter from MNR, Peter Sturdy from MNR and 10 Eileen Hipfner from ONAS. 11 Q: Yes. And Scott Patrick was at the 12 Solicitor General's office with -- 13 A: Yes. He was -- I'm not quite sure -- 14 Q: -- with Ron -- 15 A: -- what his position was. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I mean he was always the substitute 18 for Ron. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: But whether he was seconded from OPP 21 to SG or not, I don't know. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. 23 A: Second was: 24 "Options for re. contacting First 25 Nation leaders. [And there's a note]
1801 OPP have ongoing contact with Chief 2 Bressette." 3 And then a little note that the people to 4 work on this would be Tim Eager (phonetic), I believe, 5 and Scott Patrick and Andrew MacDonald. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And then 3: 8 "How to support and liaise with the 9 nerve centre." 10 And that's something that Yan Lazor and 11 Michelle Fordyce were going to work on. Number 4 was: 12 "Contact with the Federal Government." 13 The sort of Federal/Provincial issues and 14 that was noted as Yan and Michelle. And then it says: 15 "Strategic". 16 Q: And that's F/P means 17 Federal/Provincial? 18 A: Federal/Provincial. 19 "Strategic operational contacts..." 20 Q: Also? 21 A: "...also." 22 And then the next line it's hard to read 23 the first word. 24 "The [something] links ongoing between 25 OPP and RCMP."
1811 I think that's -- that was what -- that 2 there should be ongoing links between the OPP and the 3 RCMP. Then there's a fact -- questions and answers and a 4 backgrounder which would be factual, which I have noted 5 here that Wallace from ONAS would be in charge of. I 6 think it's Wallace Smith; is that right? 7 Q: Pidgeon. No, Wallace -- 8 A: Wallace -- 9 Q: Pidgeon. 10 A: Pidgeon. Okay I cant' remember his 11 last name. And that Anna Prodanou and John Van West from 12 ONAS would work on that as well as Leith from MNR and 13 Dave Carson and Shelly Spiegel from Intergovernmental 14 Affair and possibly someone from the Ministry of 15 Transportation. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: But, I was kind of coordinating all 18 of this stuff, like all five (5) of these things that had 19 to be done by five o'clock, so that the three (3) 20 deputies would have it for their meeting. 21 So, actually having now reviewed these 22 notes and looking at them, I don't know if Ron Fox was at 23 this meeting or not. 24 Q: Okay. And the notes at Tab 2, 25 Inquiry Document 1003525 are entitled, (Small Working
1821 Group With the Chair Being Yan). And I take it that's 2 Yan Lazor? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Lazor? And the -- these are your 5 notes again? 6 A: Yes, they are. 7 Q: And there's -- just looking at the 8 notes, does it assist you -- did this meeting take place 9 after or before the 10:30 meeting that we've just looked 10 at? 11 A: I think it would be after. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- can you assist us 13 with what this -- what was taking place at this -- 14 A: I -- 15 Q: -- at a meeting? 16 A: -- think is probably notes that I had 17 from just a meeting with Yan, talking about how this 18 small working group would be -- would operate. Like this 19 would be to replace the emergency committee of officials. 20 So we were just going through who would be 21 on it and how it would work and that the goal would be to 22 have fairly senior people because we want a small group 23 of people, but people who can report directly to their 24 deputies, so that the communication channels would be 25 very quick.
1831 So we were looking -- making lists of 2 ministries and the appropriate officials from each 3 ministry and then just talking about, as I mentioned 4 earlier, the reporting relationship that people who can 5 report directly to their deputies. 6 And then it says: 7 "Meeting frequency and duration daily 8 for one (1) hour during the present 9 emergency." 10 So the idea was to schedule the meetings 11 every day from 10:00 to 11:00 at ONAS and then later on 12 an as-needed basis, so we could go to less frequent than 13 daily meetings at some point in time in the future. 14 "And the mandate of this small working 15 group would be to provide advice to 16 deputies, to implement direction from 17 deputies who will be responsible for 18 the linkages with political staff." 19 Then there's something, a heading, that 20 just says: 21 "Responsibilities of the members of the 22 working group." 23 But that isn't -- it looks like that would 24 be something that would be filled in, which wasn't. 25 Q: Yes.
1841 A: And then finally at the bottom it 2 says: 3 "Project management plan; how we will 4 manage this." 5 And then a little note: 6 "Speak to Suzanne re. this." 7 Q: And perhaps, Commissioner, we could 8 mark this the next exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-658, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-658: Document Number 1011834. 12 Julie Jai's handwritten notes 13 RE: I.M.C Meeting, 4 Pages, 14 Sept 07/'95 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And if I could take you to the top of 18 Exhibit P-658, the names that you've -- and ministries 19 you've listed on your note are -- the Chair was Yan, 20 that's Yan Lazor? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Lazor. And then AG would be 23 represented? 24 A: That's -- yeah, I believe that AM 25 would be Andrew McDonald.
1851 Q: Yes. 2 A: And then -- 3 Q: ONAS would be -- 4 A: Yan Lazor, myself and then in 5 brackets, Merike (phonetic) was another possible person 6 we were considering. 7 Q: And who was Merike back in September 8 '95, what was her position? 9 A: I can't recall her exact position. 10 She might have been in communications. I believe she 11 was. 12 Q: Then Solicitor General? 13 A: We have Ron Fox and then Kirk Smith 14 who was in SG communications. 15 Q: And I note that -- what's the -- in 16 front of Ron Fox's name, there's initials "LH?" 17 A: Oh, LM, that I left a message for 18 him. 19 Q: Oh, okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And I see Barb Taylor's name was on 22 the list and then struck out? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And what's that mean? 25 A: I guess we had considered her but
1861 decided that it would be preferable to have Ron and Kirk. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Because the idea was to keep this 4 group small, as opposed to the other group that was quite 5 large and unwieldy and it's possible that there was -- 6 that one of the identified concerns of the 7 Interministerial group had been that it was too large and 8 very hard to get consensus from that group and therefore 9 it couldn't make decisions and act quickly. 10 Q: And then MNR and there's a note -- 11 A: Peter Allen and then, "(ask who he 12 thinks should be there)" and then also a note "Barry 13 Jones," who was the legal director at MNR. 14 Q: And then there's a note, the next 15 minis -- it's CCR -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Question mark. 18 A: Yeah. And "MTO?" Because neither of 19 them had sent representatives to the previous 20 Interministerial meetings. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: So we needed to talk to them. I 23 mean, I'd been in communication with people at those 24 ministries, but didn't -- couldn't, at that point, just 25 say it should be, you know, 'X' individual.
1871 Q: And CCR stands for consumer and 2 corporate relations? 3 A: I think it was -- was it consumer and 4 corporate? Yeah, it -- 5 Q: I don't know. I can't -- I can't 6 remember. 7 A: I thought it was Consumer and 8 Commercial Relations. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Great. And so this was a meeting 12 with Mr. -- with Yan Lazor on the morning of September 13 the 7th -- 14 A: Well, I don't know if it was in the 15 morning. 16 Q: Sometime -- 17 A: Sometime. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And then can you help us with what 21 else you did on September the 7th? 22 A: Well, we prepared all of the 23 documents that we promised we would prepare by 5:00 p.m. 24 for the deputies. So there's a fairly extensive package 25 of material that was prepared.
1881 Q: And at Tab 43 there's a package of 2 material, it's Inquiry Document 1011845? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is this the material that was 5 prepared for the meeting at five o'clock? 6 A: Yes, it was. 7 Q: And does your handwriting appear on 8 this? 9 A: No, that's not my writing. I don't 10 know whose writing that is. 11 Q: But the material -- the -- hopefully 12 you've got the same as I have, it's a -- quite a thick 13 package of material? 14 A: Yes, it's about fifteen (15) pages. 15 Q: And it includes a background note. 16 It's two (2) pages together with a map and then a 17 document entitled, Potential Hot Spots? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that's... 20 A: That's two (2) pages and then it has 21 sort of a column. 22 Q: A three (3) page column so that's 23 five (5) pages? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And then a document, "Managing
1891 Aboriginal Relations With Respect to the Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park Occupation," dated September 7, 1995? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that is... 5 A: That's about four (4) pages. 6 Q: Four (4) pages? And then the last, 7 "Approach to Handling Intergovernmental Contacts?" 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I would ask that we mark this 10 document collectively as the next exhibit? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-659, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-659: Document Number 1011845. 14 Material for: E. Todres, L. 15 Taman, R. Vrancart. Sept 16 07/'95. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And the first page is a -- it's 20 entitled, "Material for Elaine Todres, Larry Taman, Ron 21 Vrancart," and it has -- it's a -- an agenda? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And if I could take you, please, to 24 the document entitled, "Managing Aboriginal Relations 25 With Respect to Ipperwash Provincial Park Occupation."
1901 And were all -- all of these documents 2 were prepared by -- under your direction by individuals? 3 A: More or less. I would say I 4 coordinated these. In some cases there would be a person 5 who was the lead for a particular document. 6 Q: And the -- this document sets out a 7 number of concerns and options and recommendations? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in this document the fourth page 10 or fifth page, if you include the cover, has a 11 recommendation. And is this the recommendation that was 12 being made by your group to the nerve centre? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that -- the first recommendation 15 is that Chief Tom Bressette be contacted by the minister 16 responsible for Native Affairs or the Deputy Minister? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that the second recommendation 19 was that courtesy calls be made to the following 20 Aboriginal leaders: Joe Hare as Grand Chief Union of 21 Ontario Indians; Gordon Peters, Regional Chief Chiefs of 22 Ontario; Ovide Mercredi, National Chief, Assembly of 23 First Nations; and Phillip Goulais Commissioner -- Indian 24 Commission of Ontario. 25 A: Yes, Phil Goulais.
1911 Q: Goulais? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then the other options listed 4 could be considered depending upon the circumstances and 5 option 4 was the use of Aboriginal facilitator or elders? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And, so that a -- at least from the 8 group that -- one of the recommendations made by your 9 group was to appoint a facilitator? 10 A: Well, it was recommended -- 11 Q: That's an option? 12 A: -- it be considered, yes. 13 Q: Okay. Now did you attend the 5:00 14 p.m. meeting? 15 A: No. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Perhaps, Commissioner, it would be -- 20 it's an hour or it's approximately an hour. Perhaps it 21 would be a good time for a short, hourly break? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Short break. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 2:19 p.m.
1921 --- Upon resuming at 2:27 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed; please be seated. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Ms. Jai, were you told why, by Larry 8 Taman or anyone else, why there was to be a separation 9 between the civil servants and the political staff? 10 A: No I was never directly told why. I 11 could only, like, draw my own conclusions. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: I mean I would say that norm -- it is 14 somewhat unusual for political staff and civil servants 15 to work as closely together as they did on the 16 Interministerial Committee and that some of the things 17 that were suggested, for example, that contact with 18 minister's office staff go through the deputy, that those 19 are actually considered normal government procedures. 20 Q: So that. 21 A: So in some ways what was being 22 suggested was a return to normal government procedures. 23 Q: So that normally, back in 1995, if a 24 member of the civil service and a ministry was going to 25 communicate with a political staff person, that person
1931 would communicate through the appropriate deputy 2 minister? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Now -- 5 A: Like, an exception had been made for 6 the blockades committee, because of the desirability of 7 having quick communication and just having everybody in 8 the room, kind of, hear the same. 9 Q: Now, on September the 7th, there's a 10 note -- a couple of documents I wanted to simply ask you 11 about, and the first one is Tab 40. It's Inquiry 12 document 1003523. 13 And did you -- have you, firstly, seen 14 this document before getting ready to testify at the 15 Inquiry? 16 A: I would have seen it at the time, 17 because it has my handwritten annotations on it. 18 Q: And is your -- can you recall what 19 this -- what the purpose of this document was? 20 A: I think this was a communications 21 document that was done up very quickly to ensure that 22 something quick would go out on an official level, and I 23 was asked to look at it and I did make the comments that 24 are handwritten, just in terms of what some of the key 25 messages should be.
1941 Q: And the document -- did this document 2 find its way into the material and the recommendations or 3 some of the items of this document, find its way into the 4 material for the deputy minister's meeting at 5:00 p.m. 5 that -- on September 7th? 6 A: Well some of the -- this document 7 itself does not appear to have been in the package, but 8 much of the content of this document -- 9 Q: That's what I meant. 10 A: -- is -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- included in that material. 13 Q: And the handwriting Scott, "Scott 14 Serson, Deputy Minister INAC," is that your handwriting? 15 A: No, that's not. 16 Q: Phil Goulais? 17 A: That's mine, yeah. Everything else 18 except for the Scott Serson is my writing. 19 Q: And, "Bob Watts?" 20 A: Yeah, that's my writing as well. 21 Q: And Bob Watts was? 22 A: He was a former ONAS employee who was 23 -- was an Aboriginal person. 24 Q: And was he one (1) of the people that 25 -- what does his name and the question mark refer to?
1951 A: I think that I was just wondering 2 whether he would be a useful person to bring in to 3 mediate or facilitate discussions around this event. 4 Q: And -- and Verne Harper? 5 A: He was an elder who -- whose name had 6 been given to me as someone to consider also. 7 Q: And then the key message is, it's 8 your writing: 9 "An independent and formal, I take it, 10 investigation by the SIU is underway." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then the third bullet point: 13 "Want to keep -- keep communication 14 lines open." 15 A: Yeah, and I had crossed out: 16 "Politician to politician." 17 Q: And then there's something else 18 written in? 19 A: Oh, I had written in: 20 "At a senior level." 21 And then I crossed that out as well. 22 Q: And perhaps we could simply mark this 23 as the next exhibit; it's one (1) page, 1003523? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-660, Your Honour. 25
1961 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-660: Document Number 1003523. 2 Draft Version: Some initial 3 thoughts for managing 4 aboriginal relations after 5 aboriginal incident, Sept 6 07/'95. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And then at that same tab, and we've 10 seen it in a number of places, there's a copy of, I think 11 it's Inquiry Document Number 3000 -- 3000002 actually, 12 Communications Branch September 7, 1995. 13 A: I'm sorry, what tab are you at? 14 Q: The same tab, tab 40. 15 A: Oh, I'm -- I don't have that. All I 16 have is this one (1) page. 17 Q: Okay. Then could I take you to Tab 18 39? 19 A: Oh, yes, I have that document or a 20 document at Tab 39 called, "Ipperwash Incident Crisis 21 Communications Procedures." 22 Q: Yes, and that's -- 23 A: And a contact list. 24 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 1011806. 25 Did you see this document at the time, back in '95?
1971 A: Probably. 2 Q: And then... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Excuse me for a minute. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Do you have at Tab -- maybe the 11 gremlins have gotten to work. At Tab 39 do you have two 12 (2) copies of the same document? 13 A: I -- I only have one (1) copy of the 14 document, it's approximately ten (10) pages? Oh, 15 actually I take it back, I take it back. Okay. 16 There's actually one (1) document called, 17 "Ipperwash Incident Crisis Communication Procedures and 18 Contact List," and that is about five (5) pages and then 19 there is a green piece of paper and then there is the 20 same document but it -- this second version has ten (10) 21 pages and has phone numbers and names at the end. 22 Q: And it -- it has the document number 23 3000002? 24 A: Right, right. That's the longer one. 25 Q: And did you see the longer one, that
1981 you can recall? It's dated the same day at the same 2 time -- 3 A: Well, I -- 4 Q: -- as the shorter one? 5 A: -- I believe they're the same 6 document, just that one (1) of them was missing some 7 pages. 8 Q: Okay. And, Commissioner, I would ask 9 that this document, "Ipperwash Incident Crisis 10 Communication Procedure and Contact List, "Inquiry 11 Document 3000002 be marked as the next exhibit and I 12 would ask the Registrar to ensure -- make sure that the 13 copy we mark has the telephone number redacted. 14 I think it should -- they were not 15 redacted in the database but we redacted them for the 16 purposes of this book. 17 So, it will be Exhibit -- 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-661, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-661: Document Number 3000002. 21 "Ipperwash Incident - Crisis 22 Communications Procedures and 23 Contract List." Sept 07/'95. 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The numbers
1991 appear to be redacted on the copy that I have. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. And I just hope 3 that the Registrar's copy is as well. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And the -- one of the options in the 7 plan, the managing Aboriginal relations that we looked at 8 briefly before the break was reaching out to the 9 Aboriginal leadership and using an Aboriginal 10 facilitator. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And were -- you just -- you've 13 indicated that Bob Watts was a person that you thought 14 might be a good person to be a facilitator? 15 A: Well, just somebody who we should 16 talk to anyways. 17 Q: And Mr. Harper as well -- or somebody 18 you should talk to as well? 19 A: Someone we should talk to, yes. 20 Q: And what happened with respect to the 21 appointment of a facilitator? 22 A: Well, we -- the staff group did not 23 get the authority to appoint a facilitator. 24 Q: Facilitator? 25 A: And I know that there was a document
2001 that I was involved in preparing with the staff level 2 committee on September 20th that again fairly clearly 3 recommends that we appoint a negotiator and that did not 4 happen. At least not for some time. 5 Q: Perhaps we could just identify -- 6 take that document in the second volume. I'll come back 7 to that. 8 A: Sure. 9 Q: Were you ever -- were you told at 10 this time why a facilitator was not appointed? 11 A: No, I was not. 12 Q: Okay. Then at Tab 42 there's a 13 document, Aboriginal Emergencies Preparedness Plan. It's 14 Inquiry Document 1011836 and it's got on your -- at the 15 top of a draft, "Never sent to anyone". And I recognize 16 those as your initials underneath? 17 A: Yes. Yes, I had prepared this, or I 18 and my staff had prepared it. But in the end it wasn't - 19 - it wasn't used. 20 Q: And some of this information was put 21 into the material that you prepared for the Deputy 22 Minister's meeting? 23 A: Well, not in this exact form. No, 24 not -- not -- I mean I suppose some of it is covered but 25 not really.
2011 Q: Okay. And why -- it says, "Draft 2 never sent to anyone". I take it you prepared this draft 3 and it never got sent out to anyone? 4 A: At least not at that time. It's 5 possible that it was revised later and sent out again. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I do -- I mean, sent out. I don't 8 mean again since it was never sent out -- sent at that 9 particular time. 10 Q: Okay. And at Tab 44 there's a fax 11 dated September 7th, 1995 at 10:00 a.m., according to the 12 header, and it's from Leith Hunter at the Legal Services 13 Branch. 14 Did you receive a copy of this fax? 15 A: I would have been at least shown a 16 copy of it or informed of this fax, yes. 17 Q: And it's Inquiry Document 1003773 and 18 I would ask that it be the next exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-662, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-662: Document Number 1003773. 22 Email from L. Hunter to E. 23 Hipfner, A. MacDonald. re: 24 Injunction, Endorsement of 25 Daudlin, J. Sept 07/'95
2021 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And the Registrar could -- or Mr. 4 Hewitt, if Mr. Hewitt could show the Witness a copy of 5 Exhibit P-442 and Exhibit P-443. 6 And Exhibit P-442 is a copy of the order 7 of the Honourable Mr. Justice Robert Daudlin, D-A-U-D-L- 8 I-N, dated September 7th, 1995. 9 Do you recall seeing this order at or -- 10 on or about September 7th? 11 A: I'm just -- I have to look at it for a 12 few seconds just to determine if I have -- if I did see 13 it. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes, I believe I saw this. 18 Q: And this is the injunction granted on 19 September the 7th? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the -- at page 5 of the fax -- 22 with the fax numbers. it's really page 4 of the document, 23 could I take you to paragraphs 5, 6, and 7? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And paragraph 5 provides that:
2031 "This order -- Court orders that this 2 order remains in effect until 12:00 3 noon on September 11, 1995." 4 And in paragraph 6: 5 "This Court orders that this proceeding 6 be continued by way of argument for an 7 interlocutory injunction effective 8 until trial at 10:00 a.m. Monday, 9 September 11, 1995." 10 In paragraph 7: 11 "This Court orders that enforcement of 12 this interim injunction is to be stayed 13 until 12:00 noon on September 11, 1995. 14 But this order is not to be interpreted 15 as precluding such action as may 16 necessary outside of the confines of 17 the Park to preserve public peace and 18 safety and to ensure safe passage of 19 the public upon the public roadway 20 surrounding the Park and Camp 21 Ipperwash." 22 Firstly, have I read those paragraphs 23 correctly? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the effect of this order is to
2041 grant the injunction but to stay it until the defendants, 2 the occupiers, have the opportunity to -- to appear in 3 court? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And in effect, even though it was 6 made ex parte this is the same as if it had been -- the 7 judge made it not effective until the respondents had the 8 opportunity to respond in court? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I provided you with a copy of 11 Exhibit P-443 which is a copy of the order of the 12 Honourable Mr. Justice Flinn dated September 8th, 1995. 13 And this particular order changes the mode of service. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you have anything to do with the 16 decision to change the mode of service and to seek this 17 modification in the order? 18 A: I'm sure I was involved in the 19 discussion of it with Crown Counsel from Crown Law Office 20 Civil, because we thought that this -- the service which 21 had been ordered and the original order of dropping 22 copies by helicopter would be -- could alarm the people 23 who were occupying the Park having these things fall out 24 of a helicopter. And it just seemed like a dangerous and 25 improvident thing to do and we didn't want to do it.
2051 Q: And so one of the -- so the -- the 2 Ministry lawyers went back to Mr. Justice Flinn on the 3 Friday and had that provision changed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I note that Exhibit P-443 which I 6 apologize for the benefit of My Friends is 1003489 is 7 addressed actually to you. It's got your name on the 8 top. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: Do you see that? 11 A: I'm sorry which Tab are you at now? 12 Q: P-443, the -- the injunction, dated 13 September 8th -- the order dated September 8th. 14 A: Oh, yes, that it was faxed to me. 15 Q: To -- to you? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Then at Tab 47, there is simply a 18 memo from you to Ms. Wishart (phonetic), Ms. Hunter and 19 Ms. Mounsey, M-O-U-N-S-E-Y, with respect to the material 20 prepared on September 7th, thanking them? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And they participated in the 23 preparation of the material that we've marked Exhibit P- 24 659? 25 A: Yes, they did. These were people who
2061 were outside of ONAS and not really, like, directly 2 involved in it, so they were kind of enlisted to assist. 3 And so I had sent a special note to them. 4 I think I also did a thank you to all of 5 the other people, but they were kind of a separate group, 6 because they had had less involvement in it. 7 Q: And you sent to this group, Ms. Karen 8 Wishart, Leith Hunter, Cheryl Mounsey the -- the material 9 that formed part of 6 -- P-659 at Tab 43? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: But, not the cover -- not the agenda, 12 I take it? 13 A: Sorry, not the -- 14 Q: If you go to -- if you go to Tab 43. 15 A: Oh, I see, yeah. It probably would 16 have been just the material, the actual enclosures. 17 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could mark that the 18 next Exhibit? Tab 47. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-663, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-663: Document No. 1003730 22 memorandum from Julie Jai re: 23 "Ipperwash Provincial Park" 24 Sept. 08, '95 25
2071 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then at Tab 48, there's an historical 3 backgrounder and four (4) pages, it's Inquiry document 4 1003530, and did you assist in the preparation of this 5 document? 6 A: Yes, it was sent to me from Yan with 7 instructions to update and revise it and sent it back to 8 him as soon as possible. 9 Q: And did that -- is that -- did that 10 backgrounder then form the background note that's now 11 part of Exhibit P-659 or was it a separate background 12 note? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Sorry, I'll have to go back to that 17 exhibit. 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: What Tab was that at? 20 Q: That's at Tab 43. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I think it was a separate document. 25 Q: Okay.
2081 A: Although it's -- it's similar in 2 content, but this document -- this historical 3 backgrounder, I believe, was prepared more for public 4 release. 5 Q: And there's, in fact, a public 6 release -- the third and fourth -- or there's a document 7 that appears on the letterhead of the Ministry of the 8 Solicitor General Correctional Services at pages 3 and 4, 9 at Tab 48. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And one of the names on it is Anna 12 Prodanou, Communications Branch, Ontario Native Affairs 13 Secretariat. 14 Is that -- did, in fact, the historical 15 back -- backgrounder become part of a Sol Gen document? 16 A: Well, this -- it is -- this is a 17 joint press release that was sent out by ONAS and Sol 18 Gen. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: And so this was the document that I 21 reviewed -- 22 Q: And -- 23 A: And once it was finalized and I had 24 reviewed it, it was sent out. 25 Q: Okay.
2091 A: As a backgrounder by -- well, I guess 2 in this case, it's on Sol Gen letterhead. 3 Q: But, it -- it -- but it was a joint 4 effort -- 5 A: It was a joint effort by ONAS and Sol 6 Gen. 7 Q: Perhaps we could mark those two (2) 8 exhibits -- two (2) documents, Inquiry document 1003530 9 as the next exhibit? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-664, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-664: Document No. 1003530 Draft: 13 Historical backgrounder with 14 handwritten notes Sept. 15 08/'95 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Then at Tab 49 there's a core working 19 group meeting incident at Ipperwash Provincial Park, 20 Inquiry Document 1000893. Can you tell us what this is? 21 A: I guess it's an agenda for the 22 officials group meeting. 23 Q: And it appears to have on it a -- 24 attached to it a list of questions and answers. 25 A: Yes.
2101 Q: And -- which is -- has on the second 2 page that it was printed at least at 8:07 p.m. on 3 September the 7th. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And then there is a -- 6 A: There's questions and answers from 7 MTO, the Ministry of Transportation. 8 Q: Yes. And then a draft of September 9 7th, minister's positioning statements. 10 A: Right. From AG and solicitor 11 general. 12 Q: And a statement from Mr. O'Grady. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then questions and answers from 15 MS -- the Ministry of Solicitor General and Correctional 16 Services. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And a fax from you to Yan Lazor -- 19 A: Without the list of the parks where 20 there are potential or possible First Nation issues. So 21 I would have faxed this over to Yan at the nerve centre, 22 which was, I believe, at the deputy solicitor general's 23 office. 24 Q: And the -- it says: 25 "Attached is an outline of the parks
2111 where there are possible First Nation 2 Issues." 3 This was prepared by MNR so the document 4 that's attached to your fax was an MNR document. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And now the core working group 7 meeting, was that your group, the small group that we 8 talked about before? 9 A: Well it was -- what was suppose to be 10 a small working group that -- I mean, it -- it was no 11 longer the group. It was not the same as the Emergencies 12 Committee group that I had chaired. It had different 13 composition. 14 Q: Sure. 15 A: And I -- I believe that Yan took over 16 chairing this group. 17 Q: And we looked at the one page 18 document that was at Tab 2. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And which was marked Exhibit, I can't 21 -- it just escapes me right now. Exhibit -- 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 658. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: 658. That that was with the fewer
2121 number of people, was that the same group -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- as in this core group? 4 A: Yes. That's this group. 5 Q: I'd ask that be the next exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P665, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-665: Document No. 1000893 seven 9 documents re: incident at 10 Ipperwash Provincial Park, 11 Sept 08, '95 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And then at Tab 50 is your thank you 15 on September 8th to the members of the people at ONAS. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And it's Inquiry Document 1003459. 18 And I would ask that that be the next Exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-666, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO: P-666: Document No. 1003459 email 22 from Julie Jai to 23 distribution list re: 24 Ipperwash Park situation Sept 25 08/'95
2131 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And I note that, in the second last 4 paragraph -- the third last paragraph, that you ask that 5 material that should be brought to the attention of key 6 decision makers be given immediately to you. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: So that you can send it forward. And 9 if you were not around, then Eileen or Margot were to do 10 that. 11 A: Right. Margot was my secretary. 12 Q: Okay. And then the second last 13 paragraph: 14 "It is essential that relevant 15 information is passed on in a timely 16 manner and that it is channelled 17 through one central point in ONAS --" 18 A: Right. 19 Q: "-- as well keep copy -- be keeping 20 copies of all material we send and 21 logging them." 22 So this was simply one of the mechanisms 23 to control the flow of information? 24 A: Yes. I mean it was a multi- 25 functional
2141 e-mail because on the one hand it was thanking people and 2 then secondly, it was updating them. Like if you look at 3 the second paragraph, it says that: 4 "This situation is being managed by the 5 deputy solicitor general's office." 6 And that ONAS is now kind of in a support 7 position. So were no longer managing it. We had been 8 managing it before. This indicates that the control or 9 management of the issue had shifted over to the deputy 10 SG's office or what was know as the nerve centre, you 11 know, the three (3) deputies who were meeting at Elaine's 12 office. 13 Q: And we touched on -- at Tab 51 14 there's a document dated September 8th, 1995. It's an 15 ONAS briefing note, topic, "Assertion of Claim to 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park and the Land Claims Process." 17 And it's a document prepared by Lise Hanson L-I-S-E? 18 A: Yes, Lise Hanson who was the Director 19 of Negotiations Support. 20 Q: And is that your handwriting on page 21 1? 22 A: Yes, yeah, that I -- I just made a 23 note that I gave it to Yan en route to a meeting that he 24 had with Larry Taman at 2:00 p.m. on September the 8th. 25 Q: And the suggested response with
2151 respect to this issue is that a formal statement of claim 2 to Ipperwash Provincial Park has not been submitted to 3 Ontario by the Aboriginal people currently occupying the 4 Park or by any other First Nations including the Kettle 5 and Stony Point First Nation; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, yes. 7 Q: And no claim had been made at this 8 point? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And perhaps that document -- Inquiry 11 Document 1011859 could be marked the next exhibit? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-667, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-667: Document No. 1011859 ONAS 15 briefing note - assertion of 16 claim to Ipperwash Provincial 17 Park and the land claims 18 process, Sept. 08/'95 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And this document, as well, sets out 22 on pages 2 and 3, the land claims process that we 23 reviewed yesterday? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And it also sets out a number of
2161 different negotiations that were underway? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And notes on page 4 that ONAS has an 4 inventory of more than sixty (60) land claims and land- 5 related issues that have been submitted to Ontario that 6 have not, as yet, been reviewed or accepted into the 7 negotiation process. 8 So that there were claims that had been 9 accepted and were in negotiation and claims that had been 10 presented but were not in -- had not been processed? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Then at Tab 54 there's a document, 13 it's Inquiry Document 1012573 that includes a number of 14 different -- apparently a number of different documents 15 and the first is a fax transmission from Cyndy Elder, 16 "approaches," is on the letterhead and it's addressed to 17 Suzanne Zagar, Z-A-G-A-R at Native Affairs, Province of 18 Ontario and it attaches a press release. 19 And the -- do you -- do you recall seeing 20 this document, these two (2) pages, back in September of 21 1995? The date on it is actually September 8th, 1995 22 according to the fax header. 23 A: I think Suzanne would have showed 24 this to me, yes. 25 Q: And do you know who Cyndy Elder was?
2171 A: I had not heard of her at that time. 2 Q: And apparently the message is: 3 "Next, attached please find the news 4 release as discussed this morning. 5 Hopefully we can speak later regarding 6 the conference call to the west coast. 7 I'm hopeful that collectively we can 8 find our way through this. I will stay 9 in touch with you. Call if you need 10 anything further." 11 And did you have a discussion with Ms. 12 Zagar about either Ms. Elder or the press release? 13 A: I think I -- I can't recall but I 14 think I would have had a short discussion with Suzanne. 15 Q: Okay. And then the next document in 16 this bundle of documents is a memorandum dated September 17 8th, 1995. It's addressed to Ms. Elaine M. Todres, 18 Deputy Minister and it's re: 19 "Authority and obligations of the OPP 20 with respect to trespass by Stoney 21 Point community members on civil 22 defence establishments at Ipperwash." 23 And there's a handwritten note in the 24 upper right hand corner that -- 25 A: Yes.
2181 Q: -- appears to me to be your 2 handwriting? 3 A: Yes, that's my writing and it says: 4 "Given to Yan Lazor 2:45 p.m. September 5 8th en route to see Larry Taman. SG 6 legal branch also sending directly to 7 the nerve centre." 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Because Larry, I presumed, was en 10 route to the nerve centre. 11 Q: And this is a document signed -- 12 signed by David J. Burnside, Counsel. He was a Counsel 13 at MAG? 14 A: Well, he was Counsel at Solicitor 15 General but all lawyers work for MAG. 16 Q: Okay, I said that -- 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: -- frankly, because this was on the 19 letterhead of the Ministry of the Attorney General as 20 opposed to Solgen. 21 A: Yeah. The letterhead also has 22 Ministry of the Solicitor General on it. 23 Q: Oh, yeah, okay. I missed that. So 24 this was a document -- you received a copy of this 25 document and gave it to Yan Lazor?
2191 A: Yes. 2 Q: And this simply refers to dealing 3 with property -- the OPP's authorities and obligations 4 with respect to the Army Camp? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I note that in the last paragraph 7 of the memorandum, Mr. Burnside writes: 8 "This branch issued an opinion on this 9 issue in June 1993. This is the 10 summary of available advice. More 11 detailed advice is available and 12 further research can be undertaken." 13 And were you -- did you see the 1993 14 memorandum or opinion? 15 A: I doubt that I did but I don't recall 16 for sure one way or the other. 17 Q: And the next document is a -- it's 18 part of the same bundle. It's a fax from a Mr. John 19 Kennedy at the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines 20 addressed to you, again on September 8th. 21 And although it's unclear, but it appears 22 that your handwriting appears on this document as well in 23 the upper right hand corner. 24 A: Yes, it's hard to read. It's a very 25 poor photocopy, but I believe it says:
2201 "Advised Yan at nerve centre at 11:00 2 a.m. September 8th." 3 Q: And attached to it is a two (2) page, 4 handwritten note about a potential rally? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, Commissioner, what I would ask 7 is that the first two (2) pages of this document, the 8 approaches, cover -- fax cover sheet and the attached 9 press release be marked the next -- one exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-668, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-668: Document 1012573 fax message 13 to Si Zagar from C. Elder re: 14 News release, Sept. 08/'95 15 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then the next 17 page, the one (1) page document addressed to Ms. Elaine 18 Todres be the next exhibit. 19 It would be P-6 -- 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-669. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-669: Document No. 1012573 memo to 23 E. Todres re: Authority and 24 obligations of the OPP with 25 respect to trespass by Stoney
2211 Point Community members on 2 civil defence establishments 3 at Ipperwash, Sept. 08/'95 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then the last 6 three (3) pages, the fax addressed to Ms. Jai on 7 September 8th, 1995 be the next exhibit. It would be P- 8 670. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-670. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-670: Document No. 1012573 12 handwritten fax to Julie Jai 13 from John Kennedy re: planned 14 rally, Sept. 08/'95 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And actually, I'm not going to mark 20 it, but at Tab 56, is a copy of the fax that you sent to 21 Yan Lazor which we've already marked as part of an 22 earlier document, but it's -- it's -- this document is 23 Inquiry document 1003533 that simply sets out the list of 24 hot spots, or is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
2221 Q: And then at Tab 57 is a fax to you of 2 the document that has been already marked as Exhibit P- 3 443, the order of Mr. Justice Flinn. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, at Tab 58 there's some 6 handwritten notes. It's part of Inquiry Document 1011860 7 and if you go to the 6th page -- 8 A: Yes. "When the handwritten notes 9 and..." 10 Q: "When the handwritten notes and..." 11 A: There's an e-mail from Dave Carson to 12 me about the Cemeteries Act. 13 Q: Yes. And it's dated September 8th, 14 1995 -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- at 12:04. And did you receive a 17 copy of this e-mail? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it refers to a conversation Mr. 20 David Carson had with Mr. Stewart Smith, the Registrar 21 under the Cemeteries Act? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And is relating information with 24 respect to what Mr. Smith had told him including 25 information about the 1972 archaeological investigation?
2231 A: Yes. 2 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 3 next exhibit, P-671. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO: P-671: Document No. 1011860 email to 6 Julie Jai from Dave Carson 7 re: Ipperwash - Cemeteries 8 Act, Sept. 08/'95 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And the next document is a -- it's 12 part of the same Inquiry Document 1011860, it's a 13 memorandum again from David Carson to you. It's dated 14 September 7, 1995 and it's entitled, "Burial Sites - 15 Addendum." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that's an addendum to the earlier 18 memorandum that he sent you on September 6th? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And it sets out certain procedures 21 required with res -- under the Cemeteries Act. 22 A: Yes. It sets our information that 23 was in the regulations to the Cemeteries Act. 24 Q: And Commissioner, I would ask that 25 this be marked the next exhibit. It would be Exhibit P-
2241 672. 2 THE REGISTRAR: All four (4) pages. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The four (4) pages 4 from Mr. -- of the memorandum from Mr. Carson. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Right, very good. 6 THE WITNESS: I believe it's only three 7 (3) pages. I only have -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh it's only -- yeah, 9 the memorandum's three (3) pages. The fourth page I 10 don't what that is. It's a fax cover sheet to Tim McCabe 11 that I believe probably relates to something else. So 12 it's just three (3) pages of the memorandum. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-672: Document 1011860 faxed memo 15 from D. Carson to J. Jai re: 16 Burial sites - addendum, 17 Sept. 08/'95 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And then because it's in a convenient 21 place, at Tab 59 is a memorandum, fax cover sheet dated 22 September 8th from you to the people on the list and it 23 contains a number of press releases issued with respect 24 to this matter? 25 A: Yes.
2251 Q: And why were you sending these press 2 releases out? 3 A: This -- the people I sent it to were 4 on my former Interministerial Committee who were 5 officials as opposed to political staff. And it's just 6 keeping them informed so that they could at least see 7 what was out, what had been publicly released -- 8 Q: And this -- 9 A: -- since we were monitoring all of 10 the news coverage of this. 11 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 1008858 12 and it's been previously marked as Exhibit P-518. And 13 the last tab in this book at Tab 60 is a fax to you from 14 Andrew McDonald dated September 11, 1995. And did you 15 receive this fax, Ms. Jai? 16 A: Yes. Yes, I did. 17 Q: And it's Inquiry Document 1003490. 18 And the actual document is three (3) pages but there's a 19 -- the third page in at the tab has a "received" stamp 20 and it looks like it's the back of one (1) of the pages 21 of one (1) of the documents. And this appears to relate 22 to the attendance in court on September 11th and the 23 statement read to the court by Mr. McCabe? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this relates to the withdrawal of
2261 the injunction? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the -- did you participate in the 4 decision to withdraw the request for the injunction? 5 A: I can't remember how the decision was 6 made to withdraw the injunction. 7 Q: But a decision was made -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- and you were provided with a copy 10 of the statement that was read by Mr. McCabe -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- in court? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I would ask that this document be 15 the next exhibit? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-673. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-673: Document No. 1003490 fax to 19 J. Jai from A. MacDonald 20 "Statement to be read to the 21 court, Sept. 11/'95" with 22 handwritten corrections and 23 addendum to statement made in 24 court, Sept. 11/'95 25
2271 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then could I take you to Tab 10 of 3 the first book, that's your log -- telephone log Exhibit 4 P-644? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And September 12th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Which is the last page? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I note that on September 11th 11 there's a note, Glen Brennan, INAC, Ipperwash, Irwin, and 12 a checkmark? 13 A: Yes, that I spoke to Glen Brennan, 14 probably about Irwin's visit. 15 Q: And Mr. Irwin was going to visit on 16 the 12th or the 13th? 17 A: Around -- very shortly after that. I 18 can't remember when. 19 Q: And then do you recall anything about 20 the conversation with Mr. Brennan from INAC -- Indian 21 Affairs -- Indian and Northern Affairs Canada? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And then on September 12th there are 24 two (2) notes. There's a note, Andrew M, I take it 25 that's Andrew MacDonald?
2281 A: Yes. 2 Q: Tim McCabe -- something -- to get 3 back to me. Some -- I can't read that. Can you read 4 your note there? 5 A: I -- perhaps it says, "re: 6 litigation note?" 7 Q: And then another call, Andrew M. 8 Ipperwash note: 9 "We should do it." 10 A: "But -- but collaborate with him." 11 Q: Okay. And then there's a call: 12 "Glen Brennan -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- has press release on Irwin's 15 visit?" 16 A: "Irwin's visit." Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And that's relating to Mr. Irwin's 18 visit either -- I think it's the next day actually. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And then there's a note at the 21 bottom, Hubert Ryan, INAC Ottawa. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what was Mr. Ryan calling you 24 about? 25 A: He was calling me to advise me that
2291 they had -- that they had found documents indicating that 2 when the Park was established in 1937 there was a burial 3 site there. 4 Q: And there's a reference, "1926 5 surrender," something. Is that part of Mr. Ryan's call? 6 A: I believe that's from an earlier 7 call. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Because that was -- that's a note 10 from Merike. Like that would have been a phone call from 11 Merike. 12 Q: Okay. Oh, I understand. And can you 13 read the note, "1926 surrender," and then it's illegible? 14 A: I think it says, "illegal." 15 Q: And does that assist you today with 16 respect to what that conversation was about? 17 A: No, I can't remember that 18 conversation. 19 Q: And when you received the call from 20 Mr. Ryan what was your reaction to his comments about the 21 burial site and 1937? 22 A: Well, I immediately asked him to send 23 me copies of the documents that he had found that 24 referenced the burial ground. 25 Q: And I'd ask you to turn to Tab --
2301 Tabs 3, 4, 5 and 5 -- and 5 -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and 6 of the book in front of you. 4 A: Yes. These were all documents that 5 he faxed to me after our phone call. 6 Q: And the first document is Inquiry 7 Document 1001593, it's a letter dated August 13, 1937 8 from the -- 9 A: From the Indian Agent. 10 Q: Indian Agent and it's addressed to 11 the Secretariat of the Department of Indian Affairs, and 12 it related to the old Indian burial ground on the new 13 government part at Ipperwash beach. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Then the next document is a document 16 at Tab 4. It's Inquiry document 1001594 and it's 17 entitled, Monthly Meeting of the Kettle and Stony Point 18 Council, August 13, 1937. And it reads: 19 "Move by Wellington Elijah and seconded 20 by Caleb Shawkence (phonetic) that we 21 ask the Department of Indian Affairs to 22 request the Provincial Government to 23 preserve the old Indian burial grounds 24 on the government Park at Ipperwash 25 beach and have their engineer mark off
2311 and fence off the ground so that they 2 will be protected." 3 Then the next document at Tab 5, again was 4 sent to you by Mr. Ryan. It's Inquiry Document 1001596 5 and it's a letter dated August 17th, 1957 from a Mr. 6 MacInnes to Mr. Gain, Deputy Minister Department of Lands 7 and Forests in Toronto. 8 And last -- the next document appears to 9 be simply -- it's Inquiry document 100 -- I mean 1011140 10 and it's got on it, "retyped for clarity". 11 Was that done in your office? 12 A: Probably, yes. I would say so. 13 Q: And the last document that you 14 received was Inquiry Document 1010892. It's a letter 15 from the provincial office of the Deputy Minister of 16 Lands and Forests dated August 19th, 1937 to Mr. McInnis 17 at the Indian Affairs branch in Ottawa with respect to 18 the -- the burial ground at the Park. 19 And I would ask that these four (4) 20 documents plus the fifth retyped document be marked 21 collectively the next exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-674, Your Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 674? 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-674: Document No. 1001593;
2321 1001596; 101140; 1010892 2 documents re: Indian burial 3 grounds, August 1937 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And after you received these 7 documents what did you do? 8 A: I advised Yan Lazor and then he 9 advised the three (3) deputies at the nerve centre. 10 Q: And -- 11 A: And I'm sure I also spoke to staff at 12 MNR. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Because it involves their Park. 17 Q: Okay. And if I could ask you to 18 turn, please, in the second volume to Tab 70, Inquiry 19 document 1011891. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes. So, these are more detailed 24 notes of my phone call with Hubert Ryan (phonetic). 25 Q: And do you recall independently,
2331 other than the notes, the telephone call with Mr. Ryan? 2 A: I recall having the telephone call 3 with him, then I recall him telling me that he had found 4 these old documents indicating that the -- that officials 5 at the time were aware of a burial ground. 6 Q: Okay. And I note -- could you just - 7 - I would ask that this note be marked the next exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: What tab was that again? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Tab 70. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-675. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-675: Document 1011891 J. Jai's 13 handwritten note re: Hubert 14 Ryan, Sept. 12/'95 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And the note reads: 18 "No idea where the burial ground is, 19 just came across it by accident." 20 A: Yeah, and -- 21 Q: That's -- that's what Mr. Ryan told 22 you? 23 A: That's what he told me and when he 24 says, "it" he doesn't mean the burial ground, he means 25 the documents.
2341 Q: I appreciate that. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And then -- can you just tell us what 4 he told you? 5 A: Yes, he said that -- that the burial 6 ground in the Camp, like the Army Base, is fenced off and 7 is far away from the Park. And it has been known about 8 for many years and was fenced off in 1947. 9 And that may have been in response to a 10 question from me about whether he -- if he was sure that 11 this was the burial ground in the Park as opposed to the 12 burial ground in the Army Base. 13 And then he says their regional office 14 called him and said that the band also had information 15 about the burial ground in the Park, that Chief Bressette 16 mentioned this to the regional staff recently. Then he 17 says that Minister Irwin is going to Ipperwash tomorrow 18 and Irwin has been given copies of this correspondence 19 and has been briefed. 20 Q: And the -- what did you take from the 21 comment that Irwin has been given copies of this 22 correspondence and has been briefed? 23 A: Just that he had been made aware that 24 they had found these files or this material in -- in 25 their old archives.
2351 Q: And Mr. Irwin at the time was the -- 2 A: Minister of Indian Affairs. 3 Q: The Minister of Indian Affairs. And 4 at Tab 71 there's a fax from Mr. Brennan to you and it 5 relates to -- attached is a press release? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And this document's dated September 8 12th, 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And this press release simply 11 announces his visit to the area on September 13th? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: I would ask that be the next exhibit? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-676. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-676: Document 1003549 fax to J. 17 Jai from G. Brennan, Federal 18 Government release Sept. 19 12/'95 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Then just going back to the beginning 23 of this document and I'm not going to go through all of 24 these, Ms. Jai, but there's a number of documents that 25 relate to various hot spots if I might put it in relation
2361 to -- during this period of time? 2 Well, let me just go back. At Tab 61 3 there's a memo from Mr. Van West to you. And this 4 memorandum deals with the Provincial Park but deals with 5 claims submitted by the First Nation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And has attached to it -- it's 8 Inquiry Document 1011868. And has attached to it a 9 number of different documents from the archives of or the 10 files of the Provincial Government? 11 A: Yes, it's about seventy-four (74) 12 pages. 13 Q: And it -- I would ask that that -- 14 you received this document? 15 A: Yes, I did receive it from John Van 16 West. 17 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 18 exhibit? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-677, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-677: Document 1011868 - 18 22 documents related to First 23 Nations issues, Sept 11/'95 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2371 Q: And at Tab 62 there's another 2 memorandum dated -- it's Inquiry Document 1003608 from 3 David Carson to you dated September 11, 1995 with respect 4 to Kettle and Stony Point First Nation/Stoney Point Group 5 outstanding litigation. 6 And did you a) ask David Carson to do this 7 and, b) did you receive this document? 8 A: Yes, I asked Dave to do it and I 9 received it on September the 11th. 10 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 11 exhibit. It would be P-678, 1003608. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-678: Document 1003608 ONAS memo to 14 J. Jai from D. Carson re: 15 Kettle and Stony Point First 16 Nation/Stoney Point group 17 outstanding litigation Sept. 18 11/'95 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And at Tab 63, there's a -- a copy of 22 Inquiry document 1003781. It's a five (5) page document 23 entitled "Potential..." 24 A: Potential Hot Spots. 25 Q: "...Hot Spots". And do you recognize
2381 the writing on this document? 2 A: Yes, that's my writing and it's a 3 note. It just says: 4 "Eileen per e-mail, revised version. 5 Yan will take to nerve centre Tuesday 6 a.m." 7 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 8 exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Is that Tab 68? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 68. No, it's 11 Tab -- 12 THE WITNESS: Sixty-three (63). 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sixty-three (63). 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It would be tab -- 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-679. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-679: Document 1003781 Potential 22 hot spots - to Eileen Hipfner 23 from Y. Lazor Sept. 11/'95 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2391 Q: And these were various hot spots that 2 you had identified as potential -- had been identified as 3 potential problems? 4 A: Yes, I mean, collectively, among the 5 staff at -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- the Native Affairs Secretariat. 8 Q: And then at Tab 64, these appear to 9 be some notes made by you? 10 A: Yes. These were some of the notes 11 that I made in preparing the hot spots notes. 12 I mean, initially it starts out as a notes 13 of my meeting with Yan and what he wants done for that 14 afternoon. But just relating to hot spots, so it talks 15 about the fact that he wants this note by two o'clock 16 that afternoon, and we should identify hot spots of 17 various kinds. 18 And so that -- those two (2) pages are 19 kind of notes from that meeting with Yan and the next 20 page would have been notes I made soon after just, kind 21 of, brainstorming around potential hot spots and 22 identifying possible areas that would be hot spots, as 23 well as in the introduction, giving some of the 24 background as to why they might be hot spots or why, you 25 know, tensions might be high in these areas.
2401 Q: And this information was then put 2 into P-679? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I would ask that Inquiry Document 5 1003540 be the next exhibit. It would be P-680. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Right. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-680: Document 1003540 handwritten 9 notes re: hot spots, Sept. 10 11/'95 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And at Tab 65 there's a e-mail -- a 14 fax cover sheet from you to Yan Lazor dated September 15 11th. And then it says sent at 4 -- 16 A: 4:10 p.m. 17 Q: September 11th -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: Okay. And this relates to -- 20 A: Some material that I had requested 21 from MNR regarding Provincial Parks that had known burial 22 sites or Aboriginal use habitation sites. 23 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 1003538, 24 and that be marked the next exhibit, P-681? 25 THE REGISTRAR: Right.
2411 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-681: Document 1003538 fax from J. 2 Jai to Y. Lazor re: burial 3 sites, habitation sites Sept 4 11/'95 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And the next document, at Tab 66, is 8 a handwritten note dated September 11th from Lise Hanson 9 I take it -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- to you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that again relates to potential 14 hot spots? 15 A: Yes, these are some further hot spots 16 that she's identifying. 17 Q: Then on page of this document, it's 18 1003542, there's a note: 19 "No purple tag amongst purple tags". 20 A: I have no idea what that is. That 21 must have been added later. That was not part of the 22 original note. 23 Q: Oh that wasn't part of the -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- original note?
2421 A: It was not. 2 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 3 exhibit, P-68 -- 4 THE REGISTRAR: Two (2). 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-682: Document 1003542 handwritten 7 note from Lise to J. Jai re: 8 Possible additions to list of 9 potential hot spots, Sept. 10 11/'95 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And at Tab 67, there's a copy of a 14 letter dated September 11th, 1995 from -- 15 A: Christine Beachey. Well -- sorry, 16 the letter's from Ralph Akiwenzie who is the Chief of the 17 Chippewas of Nawash. 18 Q: And it was sent to you -- you by 19 Christine -- 20 A: Christine Beachey. 21 Q: And it was sent to you, Yan Lazor, 22 Lise Hanson, Nathalie Nepton, Andrew MacDonald and Tim 23 McCabe? 24 A: Right. So a variety of officials at 25 ONAS, AG. Yeah, ONAS and AG.
2431 Q: And it's a letter to Mr. Harris -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- dated September 11th, 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And who's Christine Beachey? 6 A: I can't remember. 7 Q: I would ask that be the next exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-683, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-683: Document 1003543 letter to 11 Premier M. Harris from Chief 12 of Chippewas of Nawash Sept. 13 11/'95 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Then there's some handwritten notes 17 that look to me like they're yours. 18 A: Yes, that's my writing. September 19 12th '95. It must have been just a debrief I got from 20 someone, perhaps from Yan. It just says: 21 "Premier met with Aboriginal leaders 22 for twenty (20) to thirty (30) minutes. 23 Then Harnick met with them for an hour 24 and twenty (20) minutes. [That] The 25 Minister's meeting with the Premier
2441 now. 2 First Nation wants to file a specific 3 claim and a joint investigation [like, 4 hold a joint investigation]. We can 5 deal with burial ground through a 6 legitimate process." 7 Q: And what does -- what does that mean? 8 A: It means that -- I think, that there 9 is a process in place for protecting Aboriginal burial 10 grounds that we intend to follow. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: That was always our intention. 13 Q: And the -- that's Inquiry Document 14 1003544 and there's a second page again dated September 15 12th and these appear to be with your note -- your notes 16 as well? 17 A: Yes, yes. 18 Q: And the first entry's "Pol doc..." 19 A: Political staff. That's what Pol 20 would be the short form for. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: And then it says "SMC" which is 23 senior management committee. So, I don't -- I don't know 24 what that notation means. 25 Q: And this appears to be a note prior
2451 to -- made before the note that's the first page of these 2 two (2) pages because -- 3 A: Yes. Because this was before the 4 meeting that the Premier had with Aboriginal leaders. 5 So, it's just talking about the fact that there is going 6 to be this meeting. 7 Q: And then do you recall who this 8 discussion -- the notes -- what these notes were prepared 9 for? 10 A: I think this would have just been 11 that Yan was briefing me on what was happening. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That there was going to be this 14 meeting with the Premier, our minister and Aboriginal 15 leaders this afternoon at 3:00ish; that Harnick was there 16 to speak about Aboriginal issues generally. And then 17 next steps it says "Policing" and then it says: 18 "-facilitators/neutral mediator". 19 So, that's next to the word "Policing" and 20 then under that it says "Aboriginal Issues". 21 And then - and then it says "Rejected for 22 the Aboriginal Issues". And I think that relates to a 23 facilitator or neutral mediator being rejected for the 24 Aboriginal issues. 25 Q: And -- okay -- so the -- and at this
2461 point there was no facilitator appointed. 2 A: No, there was no facilitator. And 3 then it says, "Layout options for next steps." 4 Then it says, "Negotiations not --" 5 Q: Under Aboriginal issues it's -- 6 there's a -- 7 A: Oh. It just says, "Within the Park 8 and outside", and then it says "The leaders." 9 Q: Okay. Then "Layout options for next 10 steps."? Then the next? 11 A: Then it says "Negotiations not on" 12 and that's underlined. 13 Q: And why is that? 14 A: Well I think that that's Yan relaying 15 to me that the direction is that there are not going to 16 be negotiations with respect to any Aboriginal issues 17 relating to the Park occupation. 18 Q: Okay. Then the note, "Dave re.". 19 A: I think that was just a note that 20 Dave was the person who was doing research on cemeteries 21 and the burial ground. And then a note that I should 22 speak to MNR. And then a note -- the next note says: 23 "Are ministers prepared to meet 24 regarding what to do re. burial 25 ground."
2471 Q: Okay. And both these notes, you 2 believe, were notes of conversations with Mr. Lazor -- 3 Lazor? 4 A: Yes. I -- I believe so. 5 Q: I would ask that those two notes be 6 the next exhibit, P- 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-684. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-684: Document 1003544 handwritten 10 notes re: Premier meeting 11 with Aboriginal leaders for 12 20-30 minutes, Sept. 12/95 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Then at Tab 69 there's an e-mail from 16 Suzanne Zagar to you dated September 12, 1995 at 3:41? 17 A: I'm sorry, what tab is that? 18 Q: Tab 69. 19 A: Oh. Yes. 20 Q: And this is an e-mail from Ms. Zagar 21 to you. Did you receive this e-mail? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it relates to the approach by Ms. 24 Elder with respect to potential involvement of her 25 company approaches mediation with respect to the
2481 Ipperwash matter? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And in the first paragraph it goes 4 on: 5 "Cyndy was apparently referred to me by 6 a mutual acquaintance with whom I 7 worked on labour negotiations." 8 And then she passes on some information to 9 you about Cyndy and in the third note: 10 "According to Cyndy there has been 11 direct contact between the folks at 12 Ipperwash and Gustafson Lake. She 13 believes that there is a conscious 14 attempt underway to link these matters 15 and to leverage Federal and provincial 16 involvement. 17 And did Ms. Zagar tell you anything more 18 than what's in this e-mail with respect to what Ms. 19 Elder's said about Ipperwash and Gustafson Lake? 20 A: I don't recall anything else. 21 Q: Okay. And then -- 22 A: Sorry. As far as I know we never 23 followed up with Cyndy Elder. 24 Q: And she notes that -- in her second- 25 last paragraph:
2491 "Julie, as you know, I've been 2 extremely conscious during my two (2) 3 conversations with Cyndy Elder. She 4 understands that the OPP are in charge 5 of the situation and that our role is 6 extremely limited. Having never dealt 7 with approaches mediation I am unable 8 to assess their credibility." 9 And then she goes on: 10 "Should Scott Patrick or anyone at the 11 OPP wish to contact Cyndy directly as 12 was the suggestion last week, I have a 13 package of background material on her 14 and approaches material -- mediation 15 that might be useful to them. Let me 16 know." 17 And did you send -- ask her to send the 18 information on to Mr. Patrick or anyone at the OPP? 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: And perhaps that document which is 21 1003548 could be the next Exhibit, P -- 22 THE REGISTRAR: 685. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-685: Document 1003548 email from 25 S. Zagar to J. Jai re: C.
2501 Elder September 12/'95 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And then there's the next page has -- 5 it appears to be, according to the -- the legend on it 6 when you read the base numbers the number is 025178 and 7 it's the back of this particular document and there's a 8 note. Is that in your handwriting? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: And it says: 11 "No written agreement with Gustafson." 12 And then a bullet: 13 "No injunction ever sought." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Could you tell us what that refers 16 to? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: Perhaps we could have a short break? 19 It's a little over an hour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 21 that's a good idea. I don't know about Ms. Jai; I know 22 I'm tired. We'll take a short break. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 3:40 p.m.
2511 --- Upon resuming at 3:53 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed, please be seated. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: If I could ask you to turn to Tab 72, 8 please? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Tab 72 is a minister's briefing 11 note and it's dated September 12th, 1995 and it was 12 approved by Yan Lazor, Assistant Secretary ONAS and it is 13 a three (3) page document. Did you see this document, 14 the briefing note? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And did you assist in preparing it? 17 A: Yes, I -- I'm sure that I wrote the 18 front page of it. I think the second two (2) pages were 19 written by Dave Carson. 20 Q: And this relates to the information 21 that had been found with respect to the burial site in 22 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I would ask that that document, 25 Inquiry Document 3000567 be the next exhibit?
2521 THE REGISTRAR: P-686, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-686: Document 3000567 Minister's 4 briefing form: New 5 Information regarding native 6 burial site in Ipperwash 7 Provincial Park, Sept. 13/'95 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And at Tab 73 there's a bulletin 11 issued by the Chiefs of Ontario and on the third page 12 there's some handwritten notes? 13 A: Yes, those are my notes. 14 Q: And those notes appear to be a 15 telephone conversation with Ron Fox? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you tell us what those notes 18 -- what Mr. Fox told you? 19 A: Well, it's hard to -- I'd really just 20 be reading what the note says. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And I'm -- and I'm actually not sure 23 that this note -- like it was a yellow -- it looks like 24 it was one (1) of those yellow sticky things, so I don't 25 know that it is -- that it goes with this Chiefs of
2531 Ontario bulletin or even what the date of it is. 2 Q: And it's pretty legible itself but do 3 you recall anything other than -- independently of what's 4 in this note? 5 A: No, I cannot. 6 Q: Perhaps, Commissioner, we could mark 7 the Inquiry Document 1003555 -- 5, I guess it is, there's 8 three (3) 5's -- as the next exhibit and it includes, on 9 page 3, the handwritten note of Ms. Jai? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-687, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-687: Document 1003555 Chiefs of 13 Ontario Bulletin, Sept 13/'95 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And before I forget, in the first 17 volume at Tab 10 -- 18 A: Yes, in -- in my phone log at Tab 10. 19 Q: In your phone logs at Tab 10, there 20 is an entry on the -- 21 A: Yes? 22 Q: -- second last page. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: There's an entry, it's September -- 25 A: September 8th.
2541 Q: September 8th? Yes. Then Suzanne? 2 A: Yeah, that would be Suzanne Zagar and 3 she's the person who'd sent me the note about Cyndy 4 Elder. 5 Q: Okay. And the note -- could you read 6 us the note beside Suzanne's name? 7 A: Yes, it says: 8 "There has been direct contact between 9 Gustafson and Ipperwash. Looking at a 10 coordinated strategy." 11 And then she says, and it's in quotes: 12 "Cyndy Elder of Approaches Mediation 13 Group was hired by the BC government. 14 Has been approached by UOI [maybe 15 that's the Union of Ontario Indians] to 16 be involved in Ipperwash. Press 17 release from Mohawk nation coming." 18 So that suggests that I did have a phone 19 discussion with Suzanne about the e-mail that she sent me 20 and then I see that the next entry is a phone call to 21 Scott Patrick and it says: 22 "Re. above." 23 So that suggests that I did advise Scott 24 Patrick of -- about the information that I got from 25 Suzanne.
2551 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to Tab 2 74? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And this is an e -- this is a memora 5 -- a file from John Van West dated September 13, 1995 and 6 it relates to a discussion he had with Mr. Hubert Ryan? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And he notes that he told you about 9 this information -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- from Hubert Ryan? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: And did you receive a copy of Mr. Van 14 West's memorandum? 15 A: I don't recall receiving a request of 16 this memorandum although I did get a -- a briefing from - 17 - sorry, from Mr. Van West. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: I did get a briefing about his 20 conversation with Hubert Ryan. 21 Q: And does this memorandum set out, as 22 best you can recall, the briefing from Mr. Van West? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you, yourself spoke to Mr. Van 25 Hubert [sic] on --
2561 A: To Mr. Hubert Ryan, yes. 2 Q: Hubert Ryan on, I think it was 3 September the 12th, as well? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That's Inquiry document 1011904 and I 6 would ask that that be marked the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-688, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-688: Document 1011904 memo from J. 10 Van West, Sept. 13/'95 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Then at the next tab, Tab 75, there's 14 simply a fax with respect to Yan Lazor, with respect to a 15 meeting that Mr. Runciman had in Petrolia on September 16 the 12th. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you receive a copy of this 19 fax? 20 A: I believe so, that is my writing that 21 says, "with Runciman," at the top. 22 Q: Oh. And this is a report that your 23 office received of -- on the meeting held by Mr. Runciman 24 in Petrolia? 25 A: Yes.
2571 Q: And that's Inquiry document 1003551 2 and, Commissioner, I would ask that that be the next 3 exhibit, except we need to, on the copy we've got in the 4 book the telephone numbers are not redacted and on the 5 public copy I would ask that the telephone numbers on 6 page 2 and 3 be redacted. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-689, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-689: Document 1003551 fax to Y. 10 Lazor from D. McCaslin - 11 Petrolia meeting Sept 13/'95 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And why were you being sent 15 information with respect to Mr. Runciman's meeting in 16 Petrolia? 17 A: Oh, well, just that all ministries 18 were supposed to send me any relevant information and 19 that was part of the making sure we had all the 20 information and then I would send everything that was 21 relevant up to the nerve centre. 22 Q: And then at Tab 76 there's a 23 handwritten note dated September 13th, that appears to be 24 your writing again? 25 A: Yes.
2581 Q: And that is a note that refers to Mr. 2 Runciman's meeting, among other things, with local 3 officials on September 12th? 4 A: Yes. I believe this was another 5 meeting just sort of a meeting with Yan where I was 6 getting a bit of a debrief. 7 Q: Yes? And can you just tell us what 8 you were told at that meeting? 9 A: Well Yan debriefed me on -- well, he 10 said that he, Yan, would speak to Chief Bressette about 11 the land claim so that Yan -- he, Yan, would call Chief 12 Bressette and then he's also telling me that there was a 13 meeting this morning with Larry Todres, Elaine -- sorry, 14 Larry Taman, Elaine Todres, MNR, Andrew McDonald, Ron Fox 15 and that Runciman met with local officials in residence 16 and issued a press release; that the Premier did meet 17 with Mercredi et cetera; that the message from Larry 18 Taman and Elaine Todres is that they want a master plan 19 with issues and who will be responsible for what. 20 So, for example, ONAS would be responsible 21 for Aboriginal relations; Solicitor General would be 22 responsible for the occupation and for public relations. 23 And that there's a meeting at 5:00 p.m. 24 today and we should prepare a work plan regarding our 25 issues, like the Aboriginal relations issues and who is
2591 doing what. 2 Q: And did you prepare a work plan? 3 A: Oh, I'm sure I did. 4 Q: Okay. And I would ask that that be 5 the next exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-690, your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-690: Document 1003556 J. Jai's 9 handwritten notes Sept 13/'95 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And at the next tab, Tab 77, there's 13 an e-mail to you from Eileen Hipfner. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And there's your handwriting on this, 16 I take it? 17 A: Yes, this is a draft that Eileen 18 prepared for me at my request, because I was planning to 19 do a sort of voicemail broadcast to update everybody on 20 what had happened in the last week. 21 So it has her e-mail text as well as my 22 handwritten notes about changes that I was planning to 23 make to the broadcast e-mail. 24 Q: Okay. And that's Inquiry document 25 1003563 and I would ask that that be the next exhibit.
2601 THE REGISTRAR: P-691, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-691: Document 1003563 email from 4 E. Hipfner to J. Jai re: 5 voicemail update with 6 handwritten notations, Sept 7 13/'95 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And then at Tab 78, it's -- there's a 11 copy of Exhibit P-520, Ipperwash management plan draft. 12 And is this management plan that's referred to in your 13 meeting with Mr. Lazor? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: It seems likely that it was. 18 Q: And this is simply an outline of 19 who's going to do what, when? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And then the third page of that 22 Inquiry document number 1011910 is a list of follow-up 23 items? 24 A: Yes, I believe that's the fourth page 25 and that's just a photocopy of the follow-up items from
2611 the Petrolia meeting. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: So that was an earlier document that 4 we looked at. So this -- that was Exhibit P-689, so this 5 is simply the last page of that document reproduced. So 6 maybe that was just -- I don't know if that with this 7 originally or not, or maybe it was just added just to 8 make sure that we didn't forget the follow up items. 9 Q: And is the handwriting on this fourth 10 page, is that your handwriting? 11 A: No, it isn't. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: It could be Yan's; it looks -- it 14 looks like Yan's. 15 Q: And the next Tab, Tab 79 there's some 16 handwriting of yours on this e-mail from Christine 17 Beachey? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And he's reporting -- you're 20 discussing the meeting Mr. Runciman had with the local 21 officials? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Well, the note -- are you asking
2621 about what the note from Ron Fox says? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Okay. Then the handwritten note from 4 Ron says that he -- suggests that he met with local 5 officials yesterday and I think that means that he 6 participated in that Petrolia meeting. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And that he heard their concerns 9 which are legitimate and that their brief contacts with 10 the dissidents on the Army Base imply that they will move 11 north to the cottages and then to the Pinery. 12 Q: And do you recall anything else about 13 that conversation? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: I would ask that that be the next 16 exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-692, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-692: Document 1003550 email from 20 C. Beachey re: Irwin's press 21 conference, Sept 13/'95 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And then the next -- at Tab 80, it's 25 a faxed memorandum dated September 14th, 1995 with a
2631 number of press releases and the memorandum of 2 understanding between the Federal Government, Department 3 of Indian Affairs and the Chippewa of Kettle and Stony 4 Point First Nation dated September 13th. 5 You were simply sending this material out 6 for everyone's information? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: That's Inquiry document 1008859 and I 9 would ask that that be the next exhibit, P-693. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-693: Document 1008859 fax from J. 12 Jai - 5 documents re 13 Aboriginal issues, Sept 14 14/'95 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: Now, at Tab 81, there's a memo to you 18 -- a letter to you dated September 14, 1995 and to Andrew 19 McDonald. It's on the letterhead of the Ministry of 20 Natural Resources and it's signed by Ms. Leith Hunter. 21 It's Inquiry document 1011914 and she's reporting to you 22 on a review of the MNR archives; is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And... 25 A: This would -- would have been based
2641 on a discussion I would have had with MNR about looking 2 in their files to see if they could find anything with 3 respect to any reference with respect to a burial ground 4 in Ipperwash Provincial Park or the land that became 5 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 6 Q: And there's a reference to other 7 documents being attached and I don't think we have -- we 8 have many -- a number of copies of this letter, but I 9 don't believe we have any with any attachments. Do you 10 recall today what she attached? 11 A: Well, I recall that -- my 12 recollection is just from what I have seen recently in 13 terms of documents that have been in various versions of 14 these binders. So there -- there was a document in one 15 (1) of the versions of these -- this -- these binders 16 that had attachments that I briefly glanced at and -- and 17 they didn't seem that relevant. 18 Q: Okay. Excuse me for a moment. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I'm going to try to find the one, 23 Commissioner, that has the attachments. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2651 Q: I may not have it at -- it may be -- 2 we'll try to find that but for -- for right now I'd ask 3 that this letter be marked as the next exhibit, the 4 letter of September 14th? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-694. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-694: Document 1011914 MNR letter 8 to J. Jai et al re: 9 Ipperwash Park, Sept. 14/'95 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Then at Tab 83 this appears to be -- 13 it's Inquiry Document 1003563. It's a -- described as a 14 voice mail updated on Ipperwash. 15 A: Sorry, what tab are you at? 16 Q: I'm at Tab 83. 17 A: Oh, I see, yes. 18 Q: And is this the text of a voice mail 19 update that you did? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And it's simply bringing everyone up 22 to date on what was happening? 23 A: Yes. I'm -- I actually believe that 24 there is a typo or something in this voice mail update, 25 just when -- in the third paragraph it says:
2661 "The funeral for Anthony George was 2 held on September 11th. It was 3 peaceful..." 4 And it says with about a hundred (100) 5 mourners in attendance, but I actually that was a 6 thousand (1,000) mourners. 7 Q: So that it -- it -- 8 A: But I may have said a thousand 9 (1,000). Like it -- it could just be that there was a -- 10 a typo -- 11 Q: A typo. 12 A: -- on what is written here. 13 Q: Because we've seen another document 14 that talked about a thousand (1,000) mourners. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 1003563 17 and I would ask that that be the next exhibit? And I 18 take it that you did this voice mail update on September 19 14th, 1995 at approximately 12:15? 20 A: I -- I believe so. 21 Q: And that would be P-695? 22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-695: Document 1003563 transcribed 25 voice mail J. Jai, Sept.
2671 14/'95 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And the press release -- the 5 memorandum at Tab 84 Inquiry Document 1011929, was that 6 prepared by you or your staff? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: It certainly uses material that we 11 had prepared. I can't say whether we prepared it, it's 12 not really in the normal format that we would use. It 13 might have been prepared by Communications or by the 14 Minister's office to prepare him for a scrum. 15 So, that it would borrow from material 16 that we had used but it was not written by my office. 17 Like it wasn't written by Legal Services. 18 Q: Okay. At Tab 85 there is a 19 memorandum that was prepared by you, it's Inquiry 20 Document 1011920 dated September 14, 1995. On the third 21 page there appears to be your signature? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it's with respect to a question 24 about the Park; is that correct? 25 A: Yes, this is a note I prepared for
2681 the Minister. 2 Q: And you -- did you prepare page 1? 3 A: You mean the -- the -- just the cover 4 that says, Issue Ministry responsible -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- arriving and suggested response? 7 I believe so. 8 Q: And the response being: 9 "The occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 10 Park is primarily a police matter, 11 therefore I shall refer your question 12 to the solicitor general, the 13 Honourable Bob Runciman." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you provided to the minister the 16 two (2) page background? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: That's Inquiry Document 1011920 and I 19 would ask that that be the next exhibit, P-696. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Right. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-696: Document 1011920 ONAS House 23 note for Harnick, Sept. 24 14/'95 25
2691 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Then can you tell us about the -- 3 what you were doing, sort of, during the balance of 4 September with respect to these issues? 5 A: Yes. I was providing briefing 6 material for Yan to take to the nerve centre. I was 7 receiving information from all of the different 8 ministries and making sure that it was passed on. 9 I was attending meetings, writing briefing 10 notes and writing issue papers and just work -- working 11 or re-working various documents to try to get a better 12 handle on the issue or to meet the requests of the deputy 13 ministers at the nerve centre. 14 It was -- I mean this whole period was a 15 time of intense pressure. Like I remember at one point 16 Yan standing next to me -- like standing over my -- me at 17 the computer and saying that -- that there was a briefing 18 note had to be done and it had to be faxed immediately 19 and that -- that I had ten (10) minutes to write it. And 20 it had to be sent. 21 So, it was kind of -- that was the 22 environment. 23 Q: And Mr. Lazor was normally a pretty 24 calm person? 25 A: Yes. I would say so. But he was not
2701 at this time. Because he was under tremendous pressure 2 himself. 3 Q: And at Tab 96 there's a document, 4 Inquiry Document 1000958 and it appears to be the text of 5 a fax from Peter Sturdy to among others, you. Do you 6 recall receiving this fax? 7 A: I don't actually recall receiving it. 8 But I must -- I assume I did receive it. My -- my name 9 is on it. 10 Q: And it relates to the Park? 11 A: Yes. The water system and MNR is 12 concerned about winterizing it before freeze up. 13 Q: And I would ask that that be the next 14 exhibit. It's P-697. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which tab is 17 that under? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Tab 96, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ninety-six 20 (96)? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. Inquiry Document 22 1000958. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-697: Document 1000958 fax to J.
2711 Jai et al re: Report of 2 Park's water system Sept. 3 19/'95 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And then at Tab 101 can you tell us 7 what this represents? 8 A: Yes. This is some material that was 9 sent to the nerve centre. In other words, to the three 10 (3) deputies with -- and it was prepared by the 11 officials. The officials group with recommendations for 12 sort of an overall strategy about what to do and making 13 various recommendations. And I had worked on this -- I 14 know I worked on the draft of the overall strategy 15 document because there are -- I mean another Inquiry 16 Document which is at Tab 98. 17 Document 1011983 has a copy of the overall 18 strategy with my handwritten notes on it in quite 19 detailed notes from a meeting that I had on September 20 19th with my colleagues from other ministries. 21 So the -- the final version of that 22 document, the September 20th version is the document 23 we're now looking at, at Tab 101. 24 Q: This -- 25 A: So that document sets out various
2721 options for the overall management but it does contain an 2 overall recommendation on page 3 which is: 3 "Seek the advice of the First Nation. 4 Keep channels of communication open 5 with them but meet with the occupiers 6 as per option 4." 7 And option 4 says -- that's at the bottom 8 of page 2: 9 "Appoint a person on behalf of the 10 Government of Ontario to assist the OPP 11 and their discussions with the 12 occupiers regarding identification of 13 non policing concerns and possible 14 processes for dealing with them. 15 Once the occupation is over, the 16 Government will discuss the substantive 17 issues of mutual concern. 18 Prepare materials for injunction 19 application so they will be ready if 20 needed and assess, on an ongoing basis, 21 whether such application should be 22 made." 23 Q: And that was the option that was 24 recommended by the -- your -- 25 A: By the staff level working group.
2731 Q: By your working group and it was 2 provided to -- 3 A: To the three (3) deputy ministers. 4 Q: And that's Inquiry document 1012428 5 and I would ask that that be the next exhibit. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-698, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-698: Document 1012428 report re: 9 Ipperwash occupation, burial 10 site strategy, Park water 11 strategy: overall strategy 12 and mandate draft letter, 13 Sept. 20/'95 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And what happened with that 17 recommendation? 18 A: Well nothing appears to have happened 19 for some time. I note, for example -- and this is going 20 to another document at Tab 108, and I believe that's 21 Inquiry document 1012068. 22 Those are -- it's the agenda and my 23 handwritten notes from one of these support group 24 meetings or staff level meetings and that's on Tuesday, 25 October the 3rd, and I have a note that Ron Fox, Barry
2741 Jones, Peter Allen, Merike Hoar (phonetic) and myself 2 were at that meeting, so it's a much smaller group than 3 the original group. 4 But, anyways, on page -- this is -- there 5 are quite detailed notes in this document on the third 6 page of my handwritten notes near the bottom, under "next 7 steps," it says: 8 "DM's to brief ministers [and then 9 there's a note], Peter Allen [so this 10 is something Peter Allen said]. Three 11 (3) weeks have passed since we gave 12 deputy ministers the strategy document 13 and we have heard nothing. The option 14 do nothing seems to be happening by 15 default. Peter feels we should urge 16 deputies to get together soon and until 17 they meet there's no point for us to 18 meet again." 19 Q: And perhaps we could mark that set of 20 notes as -- Inquiry document 1012068 the next exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-699, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-699: Document 1012068 ONAS support 24 group - agenda with 25 handwritten notes Oct 03/'95
2751 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And at Tab 109, it appears to be 3 typewritten minutes of that same meeting? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I would ask that that document, 6 Inquiry document 1000948 be the next exhibit, P-700. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-700: Document 1000948 ONAS support 10 group - update Oct 03/'95 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And if I could go backwards for a 14 moment, to Tab 102. This is an e-mail from you. It's 15 Inquiry document 1012036. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: To Eileen -- 18 A: Eileen Hipfner. 19 Q: Eileen Hipfner. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: It's regarding the Federal/Provincial 23 strategy re. Ipperwash. It says: 24 "I discussed this item with Yan. He 25 said that we should do a short note
2761 indicating the strategy and the 2 components of the strategy, e.g. 3 messaging. The feds should deal with 4 the transfer of Camp Ipperwash. Their 5 failure to do so led to the occupation 6 of the Park." 7 So -- 8 Q: And that -- that was the position of 9 ONAS at the time? 10 A: Well, that was the messaging that was 11 agreed to; that was what Yan instructed me to say. So 12 presumably -- like he was the conduit from the deputies 13 to the staff, so he may have -- he probably got that 14 instruction from the deputy minister's group. 15 Q: Yes. And then there are financial -- 16 A: Yes, that: 17 "We should hold the feds to their 18 commitment in the memorandum of 19 understanding [for example, they -- 20 they had said that they would fund a 21 burial site study] and we should not 22 take on any Federal responsibilities." 23 And then: 24 "Co-ordination. Larry has spoken to 25 Serson [that's Scott Serson, he was the
2771 deputy minister at DIAND] and 2 apparently a meeting is being set up 3 between the feds and us to improve co- 4 ordination. A letter is going out. 5 Other issues, separate water supply for 6 camp. [And then] Could you work on a 7 rough draft that we could discuss on 8 Monday." 9 That's about the gist of this one. 10 Q: Okay. And I would ask that that be 11 marked the next exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-701, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-701: Document 1012036 email from 15 J. Jai re: F/P strategy re: 16 Ipperwash, Sept. 22/'95 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Then if I could take you to Tab 112? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And... 22 A: So, this was a draft of a briefing 23 note that I had been preparing for the Deputy just on the 24 evaluation of the government response to the Ipperwash 25 crisis but this, I believe, was just a draft because it's
2781 not complete. Like if you look at page 2 under D. 2 Possible Improvements, that's blank. 3 So, I -- I know that there was a later -- 4 a more finalized version that was done. I believe it's 5 at Tab 117. 6 Q: Yes, that's what I was -- so why 7 don't we just turn to Tab 117? It's a... 8 A: So, this was some material that had 9 been prepared for a meeting between Larry with Rita Burak 10 who was the Secretary of Cabinet and Elaine Todres on 11 October the 26th. 12 Q: Now, this document indicates that 13 it's Inquiry Document 10120902. 14 "This material was not sent over. 15 Slides used instead?" 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did the slides as far as you are 18 aware reproduce the main parts of this -- this document? 19 A: Well, they were in a less detailed 20 format so it was kind of in slide format so it -- it did 21 not have the detail that was in these documents. 22 I don't know if we have the slides so I 23 don't know if we can compare the two (2), but I'm pretty 24 sure that it would not have had this level of detail. 25 Usually when you do slides the idea is to just present
2791 things in a more summary way that's kind of simpler and 2 easier to digest, not as detailed. 3 So -- so, yeah. I mean I had prepared 4 this material. I'm sure I had shown it to Yan. I don't 5 know if it went up to Larry or not but the decision was 6 made to not actually use the material. 7 Q: And this particular document, 8 however, is some recommendations and there are two (2) -- 9 there's -- the first page is a routing slip and it's on 10 pink -- it says pink paper and what does "pink paper" 11 signify? 12 A: Routing slips are on pink paper. 13 Q: Okay. And then there's the document 14 October 24, 1995, briefing note for Larry Taman re. 15 meeting with Rita Burak and Elaine Todres on October 26th 16 which is thee (3) pages. 17 And then the next -- the fourth page -- 18 the fifth page actually in the bundle is a note October 19 11, 1995 -- briefing note for Larry Taman, Deputy 20 Attorney General re. evaluation of the response and 21 that's two (2) pages and it appears that the second 22 document was incorporated into the note that's headed, 23 "re. Meeting with Rita Burak and Elaine Todres?" 24 A: When you say, "incorporated into," 25 what do you mean?
2801 Q: It appears to be the same content, 2 it's just in a different format. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I'm -- I'm not -- I'm not -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I'm not seeing that. Maybe I'm 9 looking at the wrong documents. 10 Q: No, no, that's fine. So -- 11 A: There was the briefing note of 12 October 24th that says, "re Meeting with Rita Burak and 13 Elaine Todres on October 26th." 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: That's a three (3) page note and then 16 attached, or the next pages are an October 11th note for 17 Larry Taman called, "Evaluation of Government Response to 18 Ipperwash Situation." 19 And that is a separate note. 20 Q: And the topic in the October 24th 21 note is also: 22 "Evaluation of government response to 23 the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 24 Park and possible improvements to the 25 process."
2811 A: Right. But it's -- this October 24th 2 note says: 3 "See attached briefing note -- 4 Q: Oh, I see. 5 A: -- dated October 11th." 6 So it -- it depends on that separate note 7 of October 11th. 8 Q: And these are some suggestions made 9 by you and your group with respect to the government 10 response and possible improvements? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I would ask that be marked the 13 next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-702, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-702: Document 1012092 fax from J. 17 Jai: 2 briefing notes for L. 18 Taman, October 24/'95 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And do you recall, was there ever a 22 facilitator appointed as recommended by the working 23 group? 24 A: I don't believe a facilitator was 25 ever appointed to deal with the Aboriginal issues. I
2821 believe that a facilitator was appointed by the OPP to 2 try to end the occupation. But that's different from a 3 facilitator/negotiator who would deal with the -- the 4 concerns that were raised. 5 Q: Okay. And if I could ask you to turn 6 to Tab 125. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And this is a memorandum from you to 9 Adromache Karakatsanis who was at the time the secretary 10 of ONAS? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it's a -- there's a note that 13 looks like: 14 "Yan, see my comments"? 15 A: Yeah. I don't know whose writing 16 that is. Perhaps Adromache's. It's not mine and it's 17 not Yan Lazor's writing. 18 Q: Okay. And this document relates to 19 revised procedures. Was this document finalized? 20 A: I don't know if it was finalized or 21 not. It -- it appears from the cover note, it says: 22 "Attached per your request are the 23 proposed procedures for Aboriginal 24 emergencies. Revised in accordance 25 with your memo of November the 15th to
2831 Yan Lazor. 2 Please let me know what further changes 3 you would like." 4 So I don't know if there was a later 5 version done of it or not. 6 Q: Okay. I would ask that that document 7 1012134 be the next exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-703, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-703: Document 1012134 ONAS memo 11 from J. Jai: revised 12 procedures for Aboriginal 13 emergencies with handwritten 14 comments, November 27/'95 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: Now one of the things that we've 18 asked all of our witnesses who've attended -- virtually 19 all of the witnesses, firstly, is there anything else you 20 would like to add. 21 And secondly, do you have any 22 recommendations that you would like to make to the 23 Commissioner for his consideration with respect to 24 fulfilling his mandate? 25 A: So you're at the end of the --
2841 Q: I am. 2 A: -- examination-in-chief. 3 Q: I am. 4 A: Okay. I actually wanted to just 5 clarify something that I had yes -- I think yesterday. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: This was in the discussion about the 8 briefing that I attended involving Minister Hodgson, the 9 Minister of Natural Resources. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And I remember at the time saying 12 that I couldn't remember the details but that it was in 13 relation to some land claim and that there was a comment 14 that was made by the minister that was quite extreme that 15 sort of took me aback, that I was very surprised by. And 16 it was in relation to some harvesting issue. 17 And just -- I was just thinking about 18 that, trying to remember what it was and I believe that 19 it was in relationship to the Temagami land claim 20 agreement which had been on the table and that had not 21 been ratified. Like there was actually a 'no vote' by 22 the members of the Temagami First Nation. 23 And so at that time, when the government 24 came in, one of the issues was whether to leave that 25 agreement on the table, or like the offer on the table or
2851 not. And I think that's one of the issues that was -- 2 that Minister Hodgson was being briefed on because there 3 was a large area of Crown land that was being kind of 4 interim protected or there was some restrictions on land 5 and any dispositions, so that I was at the briefing 6 because of -- of that topic. 7 And so the comment that Minister Hodgson 8 made, I believe was in relation to the restrictions that 9 were currently in place at that time on any harvesting 10 activity which would be harvesting of trees. Like so 11 that there couldn't be any, like, commercial forestry 12 operations for example, in the Temagami area. 13 Q: Okay, fine. 14 A: So I believe that his comment was 15 something like, you know, what -- if they're worried 16 about trees being cut, you know, what -- 17 Q: Well -- 18 A: -- but, like just wait and see what 19 we do or something. I mean, it was a -- a very kind of 20 aggressive, you know, They haven't seen anything yet, 21 kind of comment. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: So I just wanted to give just to try 24 to remember, because I know that that's important and 25 it's hard to remember because I -- I don't have any notes
2861 of that briefing, but I was trying to think back and get 2 as much detail around that as possible. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. And you 4 may -- I may have a question for you when you come back 5 about when we find the document that has the attachments 6 that we referred to earlier, but other than that, I am 7 completed the examination and -- 8 A: So I do have some other final 9 comments. 10 Q: Okay. I would like you to make 11 those. 12 A: Okay. So I just wanted to say that 13 this whole incident was -- has been extremely upsetting 14 and I'm very, very sorry and I wanted to express my 15 condolences to the family of Dudley George, and I know 16 that it's been a long ten (10) years for them. 17 It's also been a long ten (10) years for 18 all of the people who were involved in the public service 19 at the time and I think -- I just want to say I deeply 20 regret that -- the loss that your family suffered. 21 In terms of recommendations, I do have 22 some recommendations about how such incidents could be 23 prevented in the future. 24 I do think that we should have appointed a 25 negotiator at, you know, early on. That it was just --
2871 there was so much -- I mean, there was some lack of 2 clarity, I guess, because it was the first time the 3 emergencies committee had convened under the new 4 government. 5 And there was -- it was quite clear from 6 the political staff who were present at that meeting, as 7 well as from the briefings that I had had with the 8 various ministers, that they did not -- they were not 9 interested in talking about Aboriginal rights issues. 10 And so it was difficult also because our - 11 - the procedures of the Interministerial Committee made 12 it clear that you don't discuss substantive issues. 13 But we could still appoint a 14 facilitator/negotiator to talk to the people, like the 15 occupiers, about why they were occupying the Park and I 16 think that that would have been a good idea, to have had 17 somebody other than the OPP go and talk to the occupiers 18 and find out what their concerns were. 19 That was -- I think that that was rejected 20 because of the views of the government of the day, and 21 also the feeling that it should be left in the hands of 22 the OPP; that they were the best people on the ground and 23 also the feeling that John Carson was a very competent 24 person who had good relationships with the people, 25 including First Nations, and he was setting up a meeting,
2881 you know. He was to have met with the occupiers on 2 September the 6th at noon. 3 It's unfortunate that that meeting did not 4 occur, so that, first -- you know, the whole time that 5 this incident was occurring, there really was not clear 6 communication from the occupiers as to what they wanted 7 as to what their concerns were. 8 So I think that that would also have been 9 a helpful thing for the occupiers to have appointed a 10 spokesperson and participated in, you know, any meetings 11 that were set up, because there was that meeting with 12 John Carson that had been set up. 13 And I mean, maybe they did -- I don't know 14 if there was a concern about meeting with the OPP or 15 whether it would have been easier to meet with, you know, 16 an ONAS employee or somebody who didn't represent the 17 police. 18 But, in any event, I guess, that is also 19 something that, you know, looking back, it's unfortunate 20 that that -- that meeting was not -- that no one from the 21 occupying group attended that meeting. 22 So I think that it's just really important 23 to have open communication about what concerns and 24 grievances are because there are many ways of settling 25 and resolving these issues that do not require resorting
2891 to direct action or the use of force. 2 Q: Any other recommendations that you 3 would like the Commissioner to consider? 4 A: I think those are all my comments, 5 thanks. 6 Q: I would like to thank you very much 7 for coming today and coming back in a week from Monday on 8 the 12th when My Colleagues will have, I expect, some 9 questions for you and what I suggest, Commissioner, is 10 that perhaps we canvass the parties to see who is going - 11 - intends to cross-examine and the length of time? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we do 13 that, Ms. Jai, just to give us an indication, an estimate 14 of time for cross-examination and it's helpful for our 15 scheduling and it's helpful for you to know what to 16 expect. This is assuming that all the parties know at 17 this time what their positions are. They've been very 18 cooperative and helpful. 19 Let's see. Does anybody intend to ask Ms. 20 Jai any questions? If so please stand up. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I -- and I might, 22 as we go through the list and I've got the list here, 23 counsel for Mr. Harnick, Ms. Horvath could not be today 24 because of a death and a funeral she had to attend, but 25 she indicated that she would like to reserve one (1) hour
2901 and it may very well be less so as we make note I'll add 2 -- put in one (1) hour for her. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 4 I have a list here somewhere, I'm going to see if I can 5 follow it. 6 The first cross-examiner would be Mr. 7 Downard on behalf of Mr. Harris...? 8 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes, I'll try to be 9 shorter if I can but right now I would estimate a day to 10 a day and a half. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 12 indicated what Mr. Harnick's expectations are. 13 Counsel on behalf of Mr. Runciman...? 14 MS. ALICE MROZEK: About fifteen (15) 15 minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 17 can't here you. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fifteen (15) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 20 repeat it for me. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'll repeat it for 22 you, sir. Fifteen (15) minutes for counsel for Mr. 23 Runciman, Ms. Mrozek. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 25 Counsel for Mr. Hodgson...?
2911 MR. MARK FREDERICK: Forty-five (45) 2 minutes. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Forty-five (45) 4 minutes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Sulman 6 for Mr. Beaubien...? 7 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: About fifteen (15) 8 minutes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Perschy 10 for Deb Hutton...? 11 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: About a half a day. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A half a day, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 14 Jackson...? 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I can't imagine 16 more than thirty (30) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 18 McGilp...? 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: No questions, Your 20 Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 22 Municipality of Lambton Shores? 23 MS. JANET CLERMONT: Ten (10) minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 25 minutes, sir.
2921 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I guess Mr. O'Marra 2 has no questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 4 fine. 5 The Estate...? 6 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: At this time a day 7 and a half to two (2) days. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 9 Aazhoodena and George Family Group...? 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About three (3) 11 hours, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 13 Scullion, on behalf of the residents? 14 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Reserve an hour, it 15 might be less. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 17 the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 18 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: An hour, might be 19 less than an hour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On behalf of 21 the Chiefs, Mr. Horton? 22 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Possibly two (2) to 23 three (3) hours. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy on 25 behalf of Aboriginal Legal Services?
2931 MR. JULIAN ROY: About a day to a day and 2 a half depending on what others do. I haven't had a 3 chance to speak to My Friends to know what issues they're 4 covering but as I stand here today about a day to a day 5 and a half. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There hasn't 7 been any consultation between you and other parties? 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: Not specifically -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On 10 cross-examination? 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: She's just finished her 12 -- her evidence-in-chief, so -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. I 14 know that. I know that. But I assumed that you -- 15 MR. JULIAN ROY: I can update you on my 16 estimate as I did in -- earlier, but -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- that's what I 19 estimate right now. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 21 those estimate for now and we'll reassess them perhaps 22 when we come back. We'll see where we are and what it 23 all adds up to and where we are. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you do a
2941 rough count now or shall we wait? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, there's 4 no point doing it now, it's not helpful to do it. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it adds up to 6 six (6) or seven (7) days. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, so I 8 mean we'll wait until we come back and do another round. 9 We'll see where we are. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Because, yeah, I would 11 ask My Friends, we've done two (2) days in-chief and I 12 would ask My Friends if, I think six (6) or seven (7) 13 days is a very long time, if they could perhaps get 14 together and try to co-ordinate the responses of those 15 who have -- expect to take one (1) -- if we go from less 16 than an hour or an hour to -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To more than 18 a day. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- to more than a day 20 or two (2) days and I would ask that if they could co- 21 ordinate that, that would be very helpful. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know that 23 no one's had a chance to do that yet. But I mean it 24 would be helpful if you could try to do that before we 25 come back on September the 12th or at least try. We'll
2951 see what happens when we come back. 2 In the meantime we adjourn now until 3 Monday -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: September 12th. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- September 6 the 12th at 10:30. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 11 adjourned until Monday, September 12 at 10:30 a.m. 12 13 --- Upon adjourning at 4:45 p.m. 14 15 16 17 Certified Correct 18 19 20 ________________________ 21 Dustin Warnock 22 23 24 25