1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 August 22nd, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (Np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 15 Trevor Hinnegan ) 16 17 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 THOMAS BERNARD O'GRADY, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 13 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 180 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-583 Opp Memorandum to Deputy Commissioner 4 Services from commissioner Thomas 5 O'Grady re: Protestors/blockades 6 dissent, November 28/'91 20 7 P-584 Action memo September 06/'96 from 8 Staff Sergeant Squires to Commissioner 9 Thomas O'Grady and D.C. Boose 28 10 P-585 Document No. 3000396 OPP Investigation 11 procedures - protestors and 12 blockades 29 13 P-586 Commissioner Thomas O'Grady's handwritten 14 Daytimer notes July 01-November 17/'95 43 15 P-587 Document No. 2000986 MSGCS issue note 16 July 13/'95 from Commissioner Thomas 17 O'Grady, issue: Native Occupation, 18 Camp Ipperwash 64 19 P-588 Document No. 2000425 MSGCS routing memo 20 from Linda Lane to Thomas O'Grady re: 21 faxed letter from Marcel Beaubien. 72 22 P-589 Document No. 2000983 MSGCS issue note, 23 issue: Native occupation Camp Ipperwash 24 August 03/'95 76 25


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-590 Document No. 2000982 MSGCS issue 4 note, Issue Native Occupation, 5 Camp Ipperwash, August 03/'95 77 6 P-591 Document No. 2000982 e-mail from 7 Anthony Parkin to Nancy Mansell 8 subject: Ipperwash Military Base 9 August 14/'95 86 10 P-592 Document No. 2000947 OPP Duty in NCO 11 daily log, September 04/'95 0700 12 hours-0700 hours 91 13 P-593 Document No. 2000948 OPP Duty in NCO 14 daily log, September 05/'95 0700 15 hours-0700 hours 95 16 P-594 Document No. 2001053 not circulated 17 MSGCS issue note September 06/'95 18 issue: Ministerial role re: OPP 19 Operational matters. 99 20 P-595 Document No. 5000326 OPP duty NCO 21 daily log September 06/'95 0700 22 hours-0700 hours. 110 23 24 25


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-596 Document No. 1011812 draft September 4 07/'95 MAG/MSGCS Minister's positioning 5 statements re: Ipperwash incident and 6 Commissioner Tom O'Grady's statement 113 7 P-597 (No Exhibit) 8 P-598 Document 1001557 email from Phil 9 Duffield to Barbara Taylor re: 10 Protocol for OPP of Military vehicles 11 September 07/'95 125 12 P-599 Document 1001558 email from Phil 13 Duffield to Barbara Taylor re: 14 protocol for OPP of Military vehicles 15 September 07/'95 125 16 P-600 Document 2001050 letter from Robert 17 Runciman to Herb Gray September 19/'95 18 and letter from Herb Gray to Robert 19 Runciman October 03/'95. 128 20 P-601 Document No. 2001052 MSGCS issue note 21 (version 2) First Nations occupation- 22 Ipperwash Provincial Park September 23 08/'95 132 24 P-602 Document No. 1002419 scribe notes, 25 September 14/'95 135


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-603 Document 2001051 MSGCS issue note 4 (version 3)- First Nations occupation 5 - Ipperwash Provincial Park September 6 14/'95 136 7 P-604 Minutes of September 11/'95 8 MSGCS meeting 141 9 P-605 Minutes of September 18/'95 10 MSGCS meeting 143 11 P-606 Document No. 1001032 memorandum 12 from Thomas O'Grady to Elaine 13 Todres re: policing costs-Ipperwash 14 November 28/'95 161 15 P-607 Document No. 1011657 MSGCS issue note 16 (version 10) First Nations occupation 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park December 18 06/'95 161 19 P-608 Document No. 2004799 chronology of 20 events - Ipperwash Provincial Park 21 occupation prepared for Commissioner 22 O'Grady by Inspector G. Marshall 167 23 P-609 Document No. 2000588 letter from A.G. 24 Parkin to Commissioner O'Grady July 25 04/'96 enclosing Project Maple (P-42-97) 173


1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-610 Document No. 1005922 SIU News release 4 communique July 23/'96 re: SIU 5 decision - Ipperwash investigation 176 6 P-611 Document 1003937 Toronto Globe 7 and Mail article July 25/'96 8 OPP Chief breaks 10 month 9 Ipperwash service. 177 10 P-612 Document No. 1001163 OPP remarks 11 of Thomas O'Grady re: Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park July 24/'96 178 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 10:32 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. Mr. Sandler, I understand you have 8 some comment? 9 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, just very 10 briefly, Mr. Commissioner. After Chris Coles testified 11 on Thursday, a Canadian press story came to my attention 12 and the Canadian press story was diametrically opposed to 13 the evidence that was given here at the Inquiry. 14 It suggested that its -- its by-line was 15 "OPP Commander worked on parallel investigation of 16 Ipperwash afterwards." And as we all know, that was the 17 exact opposite of what Chris Coles had to say. 18 And the substance of the article was that 19 he had testified at first instance that he'd only worked 20 on one (1) case as a private investigator after his 21 retirement, but it was unrelated to Ipperwash, but it was 22 revealed that, indeed, he had worked on Ipperwash which, 23 again, was the exact opposite to the evidence. 24 I should say that the Canadian press 25 release reflected that the story emanated from the Sarnia


1 Observer, but I viewed the article that was actually 2 written about Chris Coles' testimony in the Sarnia 3 Observer and it does not make that allegation. 4 The -- the story, as it made its way from 5 the Sarnia Observer to the Canadian Press has been 6 completely distorted. 7 So, I've taken measures to bring this to 8 the -- the attention of the media and I know that your - 9 - that your Commissioner has been of assistance in that 10 regard and I would expect that Canadian Press would 11 immediately deal with it, at once. 12 But, I simply point that up because I 13 thought it was exceedingly unfair to Chris Coles, having 14 regard to the -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- testimony gave and 17 how clear and unambiguous the evidence was. Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 19 was very clear. And I read the story in the Sarnia 20 Observer and they did get it right, so somehow it got 21 twisted. Let's hope the record can be clarified. 22 Yes, Mr. Millar...? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe Mr. Bowen, 24 the reporter from the Sarnia Observer who wrote the story 25 that was correct is -- has also pointed or is also going


1 to point that out to Canadian Press that they got it 2 wrong. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 thank you. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner -- Mr. 6 O'Grady, please. 7 8 THOMAS BERNARD O'GRADY, Resumed; 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, Commissioner. 12 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 13 14 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Mr. O'Grady, on Friday we ended up, I 16 mean, last Thursday, we were discussing the First Nations 17 self policing plan which was marked as Exhibit P-582. It 18 was Inquiry document 2000311. 19 If I could move from that document to 20 another topic and that is the policy that appears at Tab 21 5 of the book that's in front of you. 22 And it's Exhibit 472, Inquiry Document 23 3000759 and it's called, Briefing Note for the 24 Interministerial Policy Forum: November 26th, 1991. 25 And it appears to have your signature on


1 that document; is that correct, sir? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And in the blue folder that I 4 provided to you, there's a memorandum dated November 5 28th, 1991 which we will come to shortly, but I wanted 6 you to just take a look at that. 7 It's a single letter, Commissioner -- Mr. 8 O'Grady. 9 A: Yes, I have it, sir. 10 Q: Okay. Now, can you tell us how this 11 policy or how this briefing note came into existence and 12 how it was developed? 13 A: Yes. At about that time there was a 14 protest and blockade in Northern Ontario at a location 15 that was referred to as 'Red Squirrel Road'. And OPP 16 members were there and the Interministerial Committee was 17 sitting at that time. 18 And the OPP members had some misconception 19 as to how the Crown would act if they laid charges and 20 the inference that they had is that if charges were laid 21 against people that were leading groups, those would be 22 prosecuted. But any other charges would not be 23 prosecuted. 24 And the concern of the OPP members was 25 that if they knew that that was the policy in advance,


1 then -- and they knew it, then they might be seen as -- 2 as committing an abuse of process, if they knew very well 3 that the Crown was not going to proceed. 4 The Ministry of the Attorney General was 5 represented at the Interministerial Committee. And this 6 discussion arose was passed down was -- it arose there 7 and I sought a clarification. 8 And the clarification that I received was 9 that indeed the Ministry of the Attorney General would 10 treat each case on the basis of its merits and would 11 decide to prosecute or not as they chose which of course 12 satisfied the concerns of the OPP members that were 13 there. 14 But while that was going on it seemed an 15 advantageous time to just look at our approach to these 16 types of issues. And as a result of that, some thought 17 on my part and some -- a little research, I developed a 18 paper which is reflected here and sent that to the 19 Interministerial committee saying this would be our 20 approach. This would be the -- you can count on this 21 being the OPP approach from that point onward in general 22 terms. 23 Q: And the document that you prepared 24 for the Interministerial policy form is Exhibit 472 that 25 appears at Tab 5 of your Book of Documents?


1 A: That is correct. 2 Q: And can you just briefly describe the 3 policy as you understood it back in 1991? 4 A: Well the first thing I must say is 5 that when the OPP issues -- or as the commissioner, when 6 I approve policy -- when I approved policy for the OPP, 7 it was a guideline. It was developed generally in an 8 atmosphere of --a more circumspect atmosphere and 9 therefore was developed for guidance for those that were 10 involved in -- in activities of this nature. 11 It clearly could not supercede legislation 12 with respect to their duties as a police officer or what 13 the Criminal Code or a provincial statute demanded of 14 them. But it was put forward as a guide as a best 15 practice. 16 So, essentially the -- the thrust was that 17 when one is dealing with -- with protesters or blockaders 18 or those that alleged to be trespassing, one should be 19 very careful as to the -- what right the protest -- 20 protesters felt that they held. 21 And especially with regard to First 22 Nations; was there some treaty, was there some obligation 23 that had been granted to them previously that we were 24 unaware of which gave them a right to a particular area 25 or property.


1 Or, in the alternate, did they -- did they 2 feel very strongly because they had received information 3 from their forefathers that that was the case, and so 4 held that belief as a colour of right even though it may 5 not have been, in fact, correct. 6 So, in those instances, I felt, and that's 7 why I -- I had written that was that it would be 8 extremely unwise of the OPP to reach any decision with 9 respect to who owned the property if it was a First 10 Nations protest, and that it would be wiser to seek a 11 court order injunction, that would clearly delineate what 12 the police were -- were to do and give them some grounds 13 if they, in the future, decided that they needed to take 14 some action. 15 Q: So, the thrust of the policy is as 16 set out in it that initially there would be negotiations 17 to avoid the use of physical force if possible and where 18 there's an issue of ownership, the policy indicates that 19 the question of ownership should be determined if at all 20 possible by the party claiming ownership getting an 21 injunction? 22 A: That is correct. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: And, it strongly suggests that in any 25 event, a negotiated solution where both parties walk away


1 feeling they've accomplished their purposes for the OPP 2 is always better than one (1) brought about by force 3 because experience has shown that in those instances, 4 there's likely to be a repetition and a commitment of -- 5 of further resources and just a repetition of the whole 6 issue down the road. 7 Q: And, this document, Exhibit 472, does 8 not specifically refer to First Nations, it refers to 9 protestors, blockades, dissent. 10 Was it your intention that this -- back in 11 '91 -- that it applied to all protests, blockades, and 12 dissent? 13 A: Yeah. That is correct. It seems 14 that in issues of First Nations, the likelihood of 15 dispute over who really owns the property is more likely, 16 but there are issues not involving First Nations where a 17 similar dispute could arise. 18 Q: And I note that there is an exception 19 in the policy. The only exception to this approach has 20 been in situations where death or serious injury was 21 immediately probable if force was not used to control 22 events? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And, that was an exception that was 25 in the policy as promulgated back in 19 -- November 1991?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And, what did you mean by that, sir? 3 A: It -- it seemed that on -- it seemed 4 to me that the dispute would be better settled through 5 negotiation and through the seeking of some court 6 direction. 7 But in the event, that the incident 8 commander who was privy to all of the activities at the 9 scene or should be, if the incident commander concluded 10 that without time to get court direction, the public was 11 at risk and he needed to act to maintain to his oath of 12 office to -- to preserve the peace and to prevent death 13 and injuries to people that, indeed, he could do that. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And, should do that. 16 Q: And, the -- there's actually a 17 separate document if you -- in the blue folder of this 18 letter, if you just go back one (1) document ahead, 19 Commissioner, in the blue folder, Mr. O'Grady? 20 A: Yes, I have it here, but I... 21 Q: Okay. There's a letter dated 22 November 28th, 1991, and it -- sir, it'll be -- if... 23 A: I have it now. 24 Q: And, that's a memorandum to Deputy 25 Commissioner of Services re: protestors, blockades,


1 descent and it's dated November 28th, 1991? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, that is a memorandum signed by 4 you, sir? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, can you tell us why you sent 7 this out and what its purpose was? 8 A: The -- it was addressed to the Deputy 9 Commissioner of Services. And the Deputy Commissioner of 10 Services was responsible for dissemination of police 11 orders and general issues of interest within the OPP and 12 so it was sent to her for dissemination to all of those 13 that -- that needed to know. 14 Q: And this letter, and perhaps we could 15 mark this the next exhibit? It would be -- 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-583, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 583. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-583: OPP Memorandum to Deputy 21 Commissioner Services from commissioner 22 Thomas O'Grady re: Protestors/blockades 23 dissent, November 28/'91 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:


1 Q: And I've distributed this letter as 2 part of a five (5) page document to My Friends 3 electronically. It's not in the database. It's attached 4 to the memorandum dated September 6th, 1996. 5 And this -- when you say it was 6 distributed to those who needed to -- who did you intend 7 it to be distributed to? 8 A: It would go to all regional bureau 9 commanders and they, in turn, would distribute it to 10 their -- to their staff. 11 But the long-term approach was that it was 12 to be inserted in -- in police orders and, in fact, that 13 did happen. 14 Q: And we'll come to that, that happened 15 some time later. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But in terms of the -- an incident 18 commander, after 1991, how would he have known about, or 19 she known about this policy? 20 A: He would receive the policy through 21 his chain of command, so the chief superintendent of the 22 region would be aware of it and would communicate that 23 down. 24 Q: And I note in Exhibit P-583, in the 25 second paragraph, the second paragraph addresses the


1 issue that you raise about the Attorney General? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that the Attorney General -- the 4 Ministry of the Attorney General was not adopting an -- a 5 policy that it would only prosecute the leaders, but 6 would examine each matter individually and make the 7 appropriate decision? 8 A: That is correct. 9 Q: And that was one of the issue -- the 10 issue that had been raised by your officers at Red 11 Squirrel Road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the -- as I understand it, the -- 14 you dealt with, when you were Commissioner, there were a 15 number of First Nations issues involving land claims that 16 you dealt with, when you were Commissioner or arose when 17 you were Commissioner; is that correct? 18 A: That is correct. 19 Q: And Red Squirrel Road is one; that's 20 in Temagami? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: And can you tell us some other ones? 23 A: There were a number of them which are 24 a little bit vague to me now, and I should clarify with 25 regard to Red Squirrel Road it was not just First Nations


1 that were there. 2 There were other people that were there 3 that were concerned about the environment. I believe 4 that there was a -- a protest on a -- on a highway near 5 Sault St. Marie where traffic was being blocked and it 6 was more of a -- of an information protest and for a 7 couple of days, the OPP were able to route traffic around 8 this area without endangering the public. 9 And having made their point, the First 10 Nations in that area withdrew and so it was successfully 11 concluded without any use of force. 12 There was a CP or a CNR rail line blocked 13 on occasion -- on one occasion, again in Northern 14 Ontario. Again, there was a pretty large gathering of 15 First Nations. Negotiation was put in place there and, 16 eventually, after a number of days, the blockade was 17 taken down. 18 Again, I think the First Nations felt that 19 their issue was being paid attention to and there was no 20 longer any need to -- to continue the blockade. 21 Those are two (2) that I recall 22 immediately. I know there were a number of others. I 23 think I did a quick check at one (1) point and I think 24 that, from the point that I was Commissioner -- appointed 25 Commissioner until 1995, there would certainly have been


1 eight (8) to ten (10), all having been resolved without 2 any -- any great -- any use of -- of violence at all. 3 Q: And the -- one of them was near Parry 4 Sound, Shawanaga? 5 A: Yes, there was. There was an issue 6 there with respect to gaming and the rights of the First 7 Nations. I think was also a -- an issue there with 8 respect to a highway that ran possibly on First Nations 9 territory and so there were some protests there. Again, 10 it was -- it was settled through negotiations. 11 Q: And Bear Island? 12 A: Yes. Yes, that's true. 13 Q: And what happened at Bear Island? 14 A: I'm -- I'm not entirely familiar with 15 what happened at Bear Island but I know there was an 16 issue there and I know that it was settled in the 17 prescribed manner. 18 Q: Okay. And -- 19 A: I might -- I might out that when I 20 use the term 'settled' it was settled on a temporary 21 basis in that the disruption was -- was abandoned. 22 It didn't necessarily mean that the issue 23 that First Nations were concerned about was resolved to 24 their satisfaction. In most cases that was not so. 25 Q: And the role that the Ontario


1 Provincial Police played, and with respect to those 2 blockades was what? 3 A: To approach members of the First 4 Nation that seemed to be in charge of the group, if 5 possible; to speak to them and to negotiate a -- an 6 approach that seemed to be satisfactory to -- to the 7 First Nations or whoever was conducting the protest; and 8 also satisfied the interests of the OPP in that the 9 public was not being disadvantaged. 10 Q: Now, I understand that for example, 11 with the -- the rail line blockade, and I'm sorry the 12 name escapes me right now, but the OPP helped facilitate 13 discussions with the Federal Government? 14 A: Yes, I think so. 15 Q: And through as well discussions with 16 Canadian -- the railway company? 17 A: Yes. Representatives were in the 18 area. 19 Q: And that was something the OPP did to 20 try to resolve the immediate issue? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Now the policy eventually became part 23 of a police order; is that correct? 24 A: That's true, sir. 25 Q: And that police order did not -- did


1 it not become a -- an actual part of the police orders 2 until after the events of 1995; is that correct? 3 A: That's true. 4 Q: And there's a document in front of 5 you that's got on the top of it, "Noted of September 6 6/96". Have I read that correctly? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And it says, "Let's get interim 9 order", and then I believe that's your signature; is that 10 correct? 11 A: That's my -- that's my printing and 12 that's my initials. 13 Q: And can you tell us about this series 14 of documents, sir, how this came about, and what happened 15 with it? 16 A: In the OPP there is a section of the 17 -- of the course that deals with creating police orders, 18 Operational Policy and -- and Planning Bureau and so when 19 temporary directions or guidelines are given, they're 20 eventually incorporated in orders if they seem to be 21 working properly. 22 So, this was sent by -- by me to -- 23 actually I think it was sent by Deputy Commissioner Boose 24 to Operational Policy and Planning to research and put in 25 police orders.


1 The reply to me on that note indicates 2 that the -- the draft relies on the 1991 correspondence. 3 Staff are searching to see if there's anything more 4 recent than that that would help them, guide them in 5 drafting the police order. 6 But failing that, the draft is attached 7 for my approval and it was approved by me as a draft 8 order at that time. The -- 9 Q: And I note that Mr. Sandler notes and 10 having been told by you that the draft that I distributed 11 and that you have in front of you, did not have the back 12 page. 13 A: It -- it continues on the back. 14 Q: It -- it continues on the back. And 15 on the back, just for the purposes of My Friends, and 16 I'll distribute this at the break, the enforcement 17 response is set out as paragraph 5.1 and 5.2. 18 "Where a negotiated solution is not 19 attailable -- attainable, the following 20 responses may be implemented. 21 Point 1: Arrest for breach of peace 22 where appropriate and release upon 23 removal from site, or 24 Point 2: If arrest for breach of peace 25 fails, to clear the site after a period


1 of time. Arrest and charge as 2 appropriate. 3 5.2: The incident commander in charge 4 may request or authorize other 5 appropriate action as circumstances 6 warrant." 7 And, sir, so what -- as a result of your 8 note of September 6th, 1996, this policy was put into the 9 police orders? 10 A: It was. 11 Q: And, perhaps we could mark that group 12 of material as the next exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-585, Your Honour. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And... 15 THE REGISTRAR: 584, I'm sorry. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 584, I 17 think. 18 THE REGISTRAR: 584. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-584: Action memo September 06/'96 21 from Staff Sergeant Squires to 22 Commissioner Thomas O'Grady and D.C. 23 Boose 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, we will provide


1 everyone at the break with -- it's really page 2 of P-584 2 that requires the back page. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And, if I could take you to Inquiry 6 Document 3000396, which is also in that group of 7 material, it may be -- it was in order at one time, but I 8 think it's out of order, Mr. O'Grady. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Inquiry Document 3000396 has at the 13 top, Part 10, Investigation Procedures, Protestors and 14 Blockades. It's a two (2) page document. 15 And is that the order that flowed as a 16 result of your direction in Exhibit P-584? 17 A: That's correct. The -- the order of 18 -- of process would be beginning with my memo, going then 19 to the draft order and eventually this is the permanent 20 order that was placed in the police orders. 21 Q: And, perhaps, we could mark that as 22 the next exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-585, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-585: Document No. 3000396 OPP


1 Investigation procedures - protestors and 2 blockades 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And, if I could take you to Exhibit - 6 - paragraph 2068.1, it reads: 7 "A complainant shall be directed to 8 obtain a court order, if one has not 9 already been obtained, as and effective 10 method to both establish ownership and 11 provide clear instructions to all 12 parties involved including the police." 13 Firstly, have I read that correctly? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And, that deals with the issue of an 16 injunction? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And, as well, paragraph 2067.3 19 directed to the incident commander deals with the owner - 20 - the validity of the ownership? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: "The incident commander in charge of 23 the situation shall, where possible and 24 except in emergency situations, ensure 25 that the validity of an ownership claim


1 is established prior to taking action." 2 Reference should also be made to the 3 section dealing with court orders in this policy. And 4 that's the court order references twenty sixty-eight 5 point one (2068.1)? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And, why was it not put into a police 8 order until 19 -- the fall of 1996? 9 A: Well, clearly, up until that point in 10 time, negotiation had resulted in addressing the issues 11 of protests and occupations. And, of course, following 12 1995, the issue was brought into very sharp focus and it 13 was clear that this should be available in our police 14 orders. 15 Q: Now, if I can take you to 1993 and 16 the -- before I go there, the -- when you left as 17 Commissioner in 1998, this policy remained in the police 18 orders? 19 A: To the best of my knowledge, yes. 20 Q: Now, back in 1993 we've heard 21 evidence that in May of 1993, certain members of the 22 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation moved on to the rifle 23 ranges at Camp Ipperwash. 24 Did you learn about that back in May of 25 1993, sir?


1 A: I can't be clear on just exactly when 2 I learned of it, but, certainly I was aware of it shortly 3 thereafter. 4 Q: And back in May of 1993, when you 5 learned of it, can you tell us what you learned? Do you 6 recall what it is that you learned at the time? 7 A: Well I suppose I was given a brief 8 history as -- as the OPP members that were speaking to me 9 knew of it, as to the background of Camp Ipperwash and it 10 seemed -- seemed to me that it was relatively clear that 11 First Nations had strong claims with respect to that 12 area. 13 But, again, I felt that, again, it was 14 much more appropriate to follow the policy that we had 15 put out in 1991 and before we were going to take any 16 action with respect to removal of -- of persons that had 17 taken control of that area or had taken possession of 18 that area, we would be asking the -- the Department of 19 National Defence to acquire an injunction, which again 20 would give us clear direction from the Courts. 21 Q: And if I could take you to Inquiry 22 document 2001062, it's Exhibit P-399 and it would be in 23 the blue folder there, sir. It should be... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: That's Exhibit P-399. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: This is a document that appears to 6 have been produced by your office. Do you recall seeing 7 this document, back in 1993? 8 A: Yes, I think I did. 9 Q: And Exhibit 399 describes what was 10 happening in May of 1993 at the army camp? 11 A: Yes, it does. 12 Q: And the -- what, if anything, did you 13 personally do with respect to the issue of the army camp 14 in May, 1993? 15 A: I felt that our people in the area 16 were addressing the issue as they should and it didn't 17 require me to do anything other than to be kept aware of 18 what was happening. 19 Q: And did you play any role in the 20 decision as to who should be appointed incident 21 commander? 22 A: I did not. 23 Q: And the decision would -- was made by 24 who; do you know? 25 A: It would have been made by the


1 command staff that were in control of Western Region at 2 that time, so in all likelihood it would have been Chief 3 Coles or Superintendent Parkin. 4 Q: And -- but you played no role and you 5 don't, in fact, know who made that decision? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: I understand back in 1993, in May of 8 '93, it was Superintendent Wall was in Superintendent 9 Parkin's position. 10 A: When you refresh my memory, I think 11 that is true. 12 Q: And so it would have been a decision 13 made by either Superintendent Wall or Chief 14 Superintendent Coles? 15 A: Quite right. 16 Q: And then did you have any discussions 17 with the Military during May or June, 1993 yourself 18 personally, sir? 19 A: I didn't have any discussions with 20 them. I did, in due course, receive a letter from a -- a 21 Major General Brian Vernon from the Military, but I had 22 no discussions with him. 23 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 6 of 24 the book in front of you, it's Inquiry Document 7000282. 25 It's a letter dated June 29, 1993 from Commissioner T. --


1 from National Defence, Major General W. B. Vernon 2 addressed to Commissioner T. O'Grady in -- at 3 Headquarters, Ontario Provincial Police, 90 Harbour 4 Street. 5 Did you receive a copy of this -- the 6 original of this document, sir? 7 A: I received either the original or a 8 copy, but I recognize it. 9 Q: And that's Exhibit P-402. And what, 10 if anything, did you understand the OPP was to do as a 11 result of this letter being sent to you? 12 A: Well from conversations with Chief 13 Coles, I knew that the OPP was taking its -- its normal 14 approach, which would be to keep the peace and to suggest 15 to the -- the complainant, with respect to Camp 16 Ipperwash, that any further action that the OPP would 17 become involved in would be on the strength of a court 18 order or an injunction. 19 I was also aware that Chief Coles had had 20 conversations with Major General Vernon and that that had 21 been clearly explained to him. 22 Q: And he indicated in this letter that 23 the -- and there's -- we don't have the attachment but 24 the letter refers to, in the second paragraph on the 25 bottom:


1 "Removal of the SPG [which stands for 2 Stoney Point Group] from the defence 3 establishment at Camp Ipperwash is 4 provided for under the defence 5 controlled access area of regulations. 6 Copy is attached for your information. 7 Please note paragraphs 9 and 10 in 8 Section 41 of the Criminal Code of 9 Canada." 10 He goes on to say: 11 "It is our hope that the situation may 12 be resolved without resort to the use 13 of physical force and provided for by 14 the aforementioned regulations. 15 Most recent information however, 16 indicates that the SPG is firmly wedded 17 to the object of a permanent occupation 18 of DND property. Should the 19 circumstances warrant, an order will be 20 issued under paragraph 9 of the 21 attached. 22 We trust that we may rely upon you as 23 peace officers to respond to our call. 24 We believe that the apparent, presented 25 by the Ontario Provincial Police, would


1 be less confrontational than unilateral 2 action on the part of the federal 3 authorities." 4 And did you personally take any action as 5 a result of receiving this letter? 6 A: I did not, other than -- I'm -- I 7 cannot recall definitely now, but I'm sure I would have 8 touched base with Chief Coles who would have advised me 9 that he had explained to General Vernon our approach to 10 these types of situations. 11 It was quite clear and I looked at the 12 letter as not -- not putting me in the position of having 13 to reply. He was merely stating what he thought and that 14 he had authority to do certain things with respect to 15 property that DND, the Department of National Defence, 16 possess. That was his view. 17 But he had been explained the -- the 18 position of the OPP had been explained to him and it did 19 not require a response on my part. 20 Q: And we've heard evidence from then 21 Inspector John Carson that the position of the OPP with 22 respect to Section 9 of the Defence Controlled Access 23 Area Regulations, was that the OPP -- if someone -- if 24 the Department of National Defence issued an order under 25 the regulations, that the OPP would not enforce the order


1 on the Army Camp, but would, if people were presented to 2 them at the main gate, take the people into custody at 3 the main gate. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And was that your understanding of 6 what was to happen? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Then if I could take you to... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Excuse me for a minute, Commissioner. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And we'll put it up on the screen. 17 Perhaps we could give Mr. O'Grady Exhibit P-407, it's 18 Inquiry Document 2000990? 19 In the summer of -- over the summer of 20 1993, did anything with respect to the occupation of the 21 Army Camp come to your attention, sir? 22 A: Yes, there were some incidents which 23 occurred there, there was a military helicopter which 24 allegedly had been shot at. There was a bullet hole 25 discovered in the tail section.


1 Q: Did you play any role in the 2 decisions made with respect to the helicopter incident? 3 A: None whatsoever. 4 Q: And did you learn of -- how did you 5 learn about it, sir? 6 A: I would have learned about it through 7 the compilation of a briefing note, which would have been 8 assembled in my office and it would have been brought to 9 my attention. 10 Q: And in this case you may have also 11 learned from it by -- if I could take you to Tab 7, it's 12 Exhibit P-406, Inquiry Document 2002494. This is a 13 letter addressed to you dated August 24th, 1993, from 14 John Carson? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Do you recall if you received this 17 letter, Exhibit P-406? 18 A: I really can't recollect at this 19 time, but I have every reason to believe, since it was 20 addressed to me, that I would have seen it. 21 Q: And why would Mr. Carson, Inspector 22 Carson, be writing to you back in August 1993? 23 A: Well, obviously, he felt that the 24 discharge of a firearm at a helicopter was a serious 25 matter and something which, because he knew of my


1 interest in First Nations activities and the danger that 2 such an action would -- would entail, that it's 3 something that I would have been interested in. 4 Q: So he sent it to you? You had no 5 objection to him sending it to you directly? 6 A: Absolutely not. 7 Q: And Exhibit P-407, do you -- this 8 again is issued out of the office of the Commissioner 9 dated September 24th, 1993. Did you -- do you recall 10 seeing this particular letter? 11 A: I was aware of that information so 12 I'm quite sure that I did. 13 Q: Okay. And in the fall of 1993, do 14 you recall any other involvement or information that you 15 received with respect to Camp Ipperwash? 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Can I get the 17 document number? 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Exhibit P-407 was 2000990 and Exhibit 21 P-406 was 20024 -- 2494? There may have been other -- 22 there are many issue notes and I'm not going to take you 23 to them all, but if there's anything else -- did you have 24 any other involvement in '93 that you can recall today? 25 A: I can't recall today.


1 Q: In 1994? 2 A: I can't recall. 3 Q: And -- 4 A: I know that there was -- there was 5 ongoing activity there from time to time. I know that 6 there was a collision between a Military vehicle and a 7 bus and to the best of my recollection there was a First 8 Nations person involved with that and I guess I remember 9 that because of the possibility of -- of injury. 10 Q: Now I think that took place in 1995? 11 A: It could be. 12 Q: And the -- as I understand it, if I 13 could just go back to Exhibit P-406 for a moment, the 14 Ontario Provincial Police investigated the helicopter 15 incident as it would investigate any other criminal -- 16 potential criminal activity? 17 A: That's true. 18 Q: Now, if I could take you to the 19 spring and summer of 1995. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And if I could take you to your diary 24 which is in the large book at Exhibit 103. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And there are two (2) parts to this 4 diary. The -- it runs from June 1st, 1995 to November 5 17th, 1995 and two (2) separate pieces. The first is 6 June and July. 7 Can you tell us, this looks to be a 8 daytimer, is a photocopy of a daytimer? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And could you tell us, back in June 11 of 1995, what your practice was in terms of keeping 12 notes, making notes, et cetera? 13 A: I tried to keep myself informed via 14 the issue notes which spoke to issues of sufficient 15 concern to be brought to my attention. 16 I also kept a diary which generally 17 indicated where I was on a particular day; when I started 18 work and when I finished, as far as it related to my 19 office. 20 Q: And this -- the doc -- the two (2) -- 21 the documents that are in front of you are your diary or 22 daytimer for the period June 1st to November 17th? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And perhaps we could mark those as 25 the next exhibit?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-586, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-586: Commissioner Thomas O'Grady's 4 handwritten Daytimer notes 5 July 01-November 17/'95 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And now on June the 6th, 1995, there 9 was an election and a new government was elected as a 10 result of that election and a government headed by former 11 Premier Michael Harris; is that correct? 12 A: That's correct, and I know it was 13 June and I -- I'm pretty sure it was the 6th of June 14 because that was my birthday. 15 Q: And between June the 6th and June 16 26th was the day -- the day in which the government was 17 sworn in, did you have any meetings or discussions with 18 the incoming Premier, Mr. Harris? 19 A: I did not, other than I see on June 20 the 26th, along with other senior staff, I would have 21 attended the -- and I did attend the swearing in of the 22 new Premier and cabinet. That was in a group setting and 23 I don't recall that -- that I spoke to the Premier. 24 Q: And that's on June 26th. There's a 25 note:


1 "Attend swearing in of new Premier and 2 cabinet." 3 And then the next is: 4 "Travel to St. Catherine's with respect 5 to a conference." 6 The -- was it a normal part of your duties 7 to attend swearing in of new governments? 8 A: If one was available, yes. The 9 Commissioner normally attended those things, also 10 attended the -- the opening of the Legislature which was 11 kind of a formal ceremony. 12 Q: And do you recall, on June 26th, did 13 you have any meetings with either Mr. Harris or any 14 members of his cabinet on that day? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And the -- with respect to the 17 Solicitor General -- Mr. Robert Runciman was appointed 18 Solicitor General on -- as part of the Cabinet; you were 19 aware of that? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And prior to June 26th, 1995 had you 22 met Mr. Runciman? 23 A: Not that I recall. 24 Q: And you are aware that he had been a 25 critic of the Solicitor General clerk, I think it was in


1 the -- when he was in opposition? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And in that role, do you recall 4 meeting him? 5 A: I don't recall that I ever did. 6 Q: Okay. And you, during your term of 7 office as Commissioner, saw a number of people being 8 appointed as Solicitor General; is that correct? 9 A: Yes, I believe there were seven (7). 10 Q: Seven (7)? 11 A: Seven (7). 12 Q: And with respect to Mr. Runciman, 13 what did you do, if anything, with respect to briefing 14 Mr. Runciman on the Ontario Provincial Police? 15 A: During the course of the summer and 16 there probably are some indications in my diary that -- 17 that would indicate when I met with him, but as soon as 18 it was convenient for him, I would arrange to meet with 19 him to brief him on the structure and duties and 20 activities of the Ontario Provincial Police and try, as 21 quickly as possible, to bring him up to speed on any -- 22 any critical issues that he might have to become aware of 23 very quickly. 24 Q: And there's a note on July 4th, 1995 25 in Exhibit P-586 where the note indicates that you


1 travelled to Toronto, then attended SMC -- that's Senior 2 Management Committee? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Then it indicates: 5 "Lunch with the Deputy Minister." 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Would that have been the Deputy -- 8 Deputy Solicitor General? 9 A: That would have been the Deputy 10 Solicitor General, yes. 11 Q: And then: 12 "Meeting with minister." 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Which minister would that -- does 15 that refer to? 16 A: That would be Minister -- the Deputy 17 -- the Solicitor General Robert Runciman. 18 Q: And then there's a note at -- that's 19 at 1:00 p.m.. There's a note at 2:00 p.m.: 20 "Return to Orillia." 21 Does that signify that the meeting lasted 22 one (1) hour with the minister? 23 A: Or thereabouts. It would seem to me 24 there was rather a short meeting, and that probably was 25 the first time that I formerly met him, and it was


1 probably just a quick introductory meeting. 2 Q: And then there's an entry on July 3 19th... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: ...at -- it appears to be 3:30. 8 "Meeting with Sol Gen." 9 And then there's a line I can't read. Mr. 10 O'Grady, can you read that for us? 11 A: "Meeting with Sol Gen re: Regional 12 Headquarters sites [and then] return to 13 Orillia." 14 Q: And can you recall today what that 15 meeting was about? 16 A: Yes, I do. We were completing our 17 force-wide reorganization and we had reduced our District 18 Headquarters, which consisted of sixteen (16) to six (6) 19 regions. We required larger office space to accommodate 20 each one of the six (6) regions and this was a briefing 21 to let the Solicitor General know the locations that we 22 were intending to put the regions in, the -- usually the 23 -- the cities or towns that were going to receive a 24 Regional Headquarters. 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall which day


1 you did the briefing of the Minister -- the Solicitor 2 General? 3 A: I don't recall exactly, but I know 4 that there are some other notes in my diary indicating 5 that I met with him. I don't think that the briefing 6 would have been concluded in one meeting. Probably would 7 have been more than one because his time was taken up not 8 just with the OPP but with other issues that he had to 9 deal with and other divisions of the Ministry they had to 10 become familiar with. 11 So, we would deal with a short number of 12 issues in connection with the OPP and then set it aside 13 until the next time that he had time available to talk 14 with me. 15 Q: And I note there's an entry on August 16 the 28th, "Lunch with Sol Gen". 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall what you discussed 22 with the Solicitor General at that lunch? 23 A: I -- I can't recall the exact details 24 but it would have been with respect to briefing and at 25 that particular time, August the 28th, I know there was


1 information that I had in my possession that suggested 2 that there could be issues arising in the Ipperwash area. 3 And I believe at that point in time, I 4 would have apprised the Solicitor General as to the 5 general approach that the OPP takes with regard to these 6 issues. And to put it succinctly it's to keep the peace, 7 to negotiate and to receive appropriate direction from 8 the courts as to any occupied land. 9 Q: And in your discussions with Mr. 10 Runciman after he became appointed and before September 11 6th or September 4th, 1995, did you have any discussion 12 with him with respect to the respective roles of the 13 minister and the OPP? 14 A: I don't believe that I did. I had 15 the impression because he was the critic, that he was 16 very much aware that he was not to interfere with 17 operational decisions of the OPP. He, also, would have 18 been briefed at that time with respect to municipal 19 police services where -- 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 22 sorry. Yes, Mr. Falconer, I didn't see you. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good


1 morning. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, I 3 mean no criticism of former Commissioner O'Grady, but 4 with respect from a usefulness of evidence or 5 probativeness, purely probativeness of evidence, if the 6 Commissioner is telling us what he speculates about the 7 former Solicitor General, it's purely based on the fact 8 that the former Solicitor General was a critic 9 previously. 10 And then he infers from his position as a 11 critic previously that he might have known this or would 12 have known that. With great respect, if that's what the 13 knowledge base is, it seems to me with respect that it 14 might want to be tightened up a little bit. 15 It's just -- it's not clear to me which 16 one it is, that's all. If it's purely that and that's 17 what we're talking about versus actual knowledge. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, do you 19 want to answer that, Mr. Millar? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, this is an 21 investigation, it's not a trial. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 25 Q: But at any rate -- can you -- how do


1 you know that? 2 It's a fair question to say by Mr. 3 Falconer that you say, you think you knew; how do you 4 know? 5 Do you have any -- did you have a 6 discussion or did you -- how do you say that he knew the 7 difference between operational and policy issues? 8 A: Well, I -- the reason I say because 9 of his activities as a critic, that I'm well aware that 10 sometime perhaps, after my appointment certainly and 11 probably before 1991, the solicitor general of the day 12 was forced to resign as a result of some of her 13 activities with respect to an OPP Detachment in the 14 London area. 15 Mr. Runciman was the critic and was 16 extremely vocal in suggesting that what she had done was 17 not appropriate. And I don't think he's ever forgotten 18 that. So, I had the impression that he knew that to 19 delve into OPP operational matters was quite dangerous. 20 Q: And the Solicitor General that you're 21 referring to, I believe, was Joan Smith, the Solicitor 22 General under then Premier Peterson? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: And can you tell us what occurred, 25 what the allegation was with respect to Ms. Smith who


1 was, at the time, Solicitor General? 2 A: Well, I knew it very clearly at the 3 time, but as I recall, some young people were arrested by 4 the OPP detachment members at Lucan and taken to the 5 detachment. 6 Some of their friends were not, and they 7 made their way to Mrs. Smith's home, which is located in 8 London and expressed concern as to what might be 9 happening to their friends. 10 I think that they had some concern that 11 perhaps they would be being ill treated. And Mrs. Smith 12 then made her way in her night clothes to the detachment 13 to ascertain what was happening and apparently assured 14 herself that -- that all was unfolding as it should and 15 returned home. 16 But, I think she felt she would not be 17 perceived as a -- as an individual that was interfering, 18 but obviously that was not the case. 19 Q: And as a result of this incident, she 20 resigned as Solicitor General? 21 A: She did. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And in the period September 4th to


1 September -- excuse me, prior to September 4th, 1995, did 2 you have any meetings with then-Premier Harris? 3 A: I did not. 4 Q: Between September 4th and the 5 incidents leading up to the death of Dudley George on 6 September 6th, did you have any meetings with Premier 7 Harris? 8 A: I did not. 9 Q: Did you have any telephone 10 communications or any other communications with Premier 11 Harris? 12 A: No, I did not, sir. 13 Q: Did you speak to any aides on behalf 14 of Premier Harris? 15 A: No, sir. 16 Q: And prior to September 4th, between 17 June 26th when the new government was sworn in and 18 September the 4th, you indicated you had no meetings with 19 Premier Harris other than you were at the June 26th 20 swearing in. 21 Did you have any other communications, 22 telephone or otherwise, with then-Premier Harris? 23 A: No, I did not, sir. 24 Q: And did you have any meetings or 25 communications in any fashion with any of then-Premier


1 Harris' staff? 2 A: I did not. 3 Q: And prior to September 4th, 1995 had 4 you met, other than at the swearing in on June 26th, Mr. 5 Hodgson, the Minister of Natural Resources? 6 A: To the best of my election -- my 7 recollection, I did not meet -- had not met with -- with 8 Mr. Hodgson prior to September the 4th. 9 Q: And did you have any discussions or 10 communications with Mr. Hodgson? 11 A: I did not. 12 Q: Or any meetings or communications of 13 any type with any members of his staff? 14 A: I did not. 15 Q: And with respect to Mr. Charles 16 Harnick who was the Attorney General at the time, prior 17 to September 4th, 1995, had you met Mr. Harnick, other 18 than perhaps at the swearing in? 19 A: Other -- well, I don't remember 20 meeting Mr. Harnick at all. 21 Q: Okay. And did you have any 22 communications of any sort with Mr. Harnick prior to 23 September 4th? 24 A: Not that I recall. 25 Q: And with any members of his staff?


1 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: And with respect to Marcel Beaubien, 3 prior to September 4th, 1995, had you ever met Mr. Marcel 4 Beaubien? 5 A: Not that I recall. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: I'm quite sure that I have never met 8 him. 9 Q: And did you have any communications 10 with, or meetings with Mr. Beaubien prior to September 11 4th, 1995? 12 A: I did not. 13 Q: And did you have any discussions or 14 communications with any members of his staff prior to 15 September 4th, 1995? 16 A: No, I did not. 17 Q: And between September 4th, and for 18 ease of reference, the midnight on September 6th after 19 the shooting death of Mr. George, did you have any 20 discussions with or communications with Mr. Hodgson? 21 A: I did not. 22 Q: Or with any of Mr. Hodgson's 23 political staff or aides? 24 A: I did not. 25 Q: Or anyone from MNR?


1 A: Not that I recall. 2 Q: And Mr. Harnick in that same period 3 of time September 4th to September 6th after the shooting 4 of Mr. Dudley George? 5 A: I do not recall that I did. 6 Q: Or any of his -- any communications 7 with his staff, any members of his staff? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And Mr. Beaubien? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Or any members of Mr. Beaubien's 12 staff? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And during the period September 4th 15 to midnight on September 6th after the death -- the 16 shooting death of -- the shooting of Mr. George, did you 17 have any communications or discussions with Mr. Robert 18 Runciman? 19 A: After the shooting? 20 Q: Well between September 4th and just 21 immediately after the shooting? 22 A: I do not recall that I did. 23 Q: And did you have any discussions with 24 his -- any members of his staff? 25 A: Not that I recall.


1 Q: And the -- if I could take you to 2 Exhibit P-572, if we could show -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 4 be a good point to take a break? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, sure. Thank 6 you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 8 morning break. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 12:00 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Mr. O'Grady -- if we could give Mr. 20 O'Grady a copy of Exhibit P-572, please. 21 A: I have it. 22 Q: Oh, you have it. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And actually the -- P-572 is Inquiry 2 Document 200310 and I just realized that it includes two 3 (2) minutes -- there's -- the first two (2) pages are 4 minutes from July 4th, 1995 and the last -- then there's 5 a minute from December 5th, 1995 and then a minute 6 February 6th, 1996. 7 But I'm interested in, for now, the 8 minutes that relate to July 4th, 1995 and these relate to 9 the Management Committee. 10 And could you tell us a little about the - 11 - the Management Committee back in 1995; how often it met 12 and what its purpose was? 13 A: It generally met once a month, the 14 members of it did in person, and at some point in time we 15 also had video conferences and it generally was for the 16 purpose of sharing information between the -- the senior 17 managers of the OPP, allowing the Commissioner to provide 18 any information that he or she is not appropriate and 19 allowing feedback from the Regional Bureau Commanders as 20 to things of interest in their particular area. 21 Q: And can you tell us, back in the 22 summer of 1995, what the practice was with respect to who 23 would attend the Management Committee meetings? 24 A: All of the geographic Regional 25 Commanders would attend and usually all of the Bureau


1 Commanders within General Headquarters, usually both 2 Deputy Commissioners and myself. 3 Q: And were there -- and the Bureau 4 Commanders, can you just explain to the Commissioner what 5 you mean by the "Bureau Commanders?" 6 A: A bureau was a part of the General 7 Headquarters that dealt with a particular function, so 8 examples of that would be the Criminal Investigation 9 Bureau, the Operational Policy and Planning Bureau. 10 They -- they had a particular function but 11 geographically they were located at headquarters, whereas 12 the Regional Commanders had a geographical area of the 13 Province that they were responsible for. 14 Q: And the Bureau, for example, the 15 Criminal Investigation Bureau, might have members 16 throughout the province as well? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And the -- this particular meeting 19 you did not attend, it was chaired by Deputy Commissioner 20 Boose? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And I note on page 6, it's the second 23 page of this extract, there is a note: 24 "Chief Superintendent Coles described 25 the generally volatile state of unrest


1 in relation to First Nation territories 2 and policing. The issues are local and 3 not common to several locations. 4 Issues include internal disputes, 5 policing, jurisdiction over gaming and 6 sovereignty, senior management of the 7 OPP and the Ministry requiring clear, 8 concise, current snapshot of the 9 situation." 10 And did you discuss this particular issue 11 with Chief Superintendent Coles, back in 1995? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Clearly I didn't, on that particular 16 day, because I wasn't there. I am sure that I would have 17 had conversations with him about those issues before and 18 afterwards. 19 Q: And do you recall any discussion in 20 early July about Ipperwash? 21 A: I don't recall any. 22 Q: And could I take you to Tab 8 of the 23 black book in front of you and I'm referring to Inquiry 24 Document Number 2000989? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And normally when you didn't attend 4 the Management Committee, for example, July 4th we know 5 you were down meeting the Solicitor General from your 6 book. 7 Would you have gotten -- did -- did you 8 get copies of the minutes if you did not attend the 9 meeting? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And do you recall getting a copy of 12 the minutes for the July 4th meeting, P-572? 13 A: I don't recall, but I'm quite 14 convinced that I did. 15 Q: And at Tab 8 there's a MSSGCS 16 briefing note dated July 6th, 1995 and that was put out - 17 - this note was put out by Inspector Linton, if you'll 18 look at page 3? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: We seem to be missing page 2. And -- 21 and the electronic version, there's only two (2) pages as 22 well, Commissioner. 23 And do you recall seeing -- getting a copy 24 of this document? 25 I note that it's a copy sent to Paul (sic)


1 Duffield and Nancy Mansell. 2 A: I'm -- if you're asking if I 3 personally recall this document, I cannot. I can only 4 tell you that in the normal course of business, if 5 something went to Nancy Mansell and Phil Duffield who was 6 in my office, then, in all likelihood, I would have read 7 it. 8 Q: I -- 9 A: But -- 10 Q: I note this document 2000989 doesn't 11 have a file number on it, whereas all -- most other issue 12 notes has a file number on it. 13 Does that signify anything? 14 A: It doesn't to me. I -- I can only -- 15 Q: And -- so you don't know if you -- 16 you can't recall if you saw that document? 17 A: No, I can't recall that. 18 Q: At the next tab there, Tab 9, it's 19 Inquiry Document 2000988, it's Exhibit P-560. It's a 20 issue note, July 10th, 1995 issued by Phil Duffield, in 21 your office. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Do you recall seeing that? 24 A: Well it puts me in the -- you know, 25 it's a -- it's ten (10) years ago and these issues are


1 familiar to me and in the normal course of business, I 2 would see these things. I can't say with surety that I 3 saw this particular one. 4 Q: But the issues that are raised are 5 issues that you are familiar with? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the next tab, Tab 10, it's 8 Exhibit P-561, Inquiry document 2000987, and this is a 9 note that appears to have been issued by Inspector Dale 10 Linton? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now back in July of 1995, this one's 13 dated July 12th, 1995, when would someone such as 14 Inspector Linton, as opposed to general headquarters, 15 issue an issue note? 16 A: Well I suspect that this information 17 was for the -- to be -- to be passed on to command staff 18 in the region and also to headquarter staff which would 19 be Phil Duffield, which could be used in compilation of a 20 -- an issue note generated from the Commissioner's 21 office. 22 Q: And this note gives, again, some 23 background. Only lawyers ask these questions. Again, do 24 you recall seeing this note or are you familiar, 25 generally, with its contents?


1 A: I was generally familiar with the -- 2 with issues that were taking place at Camp Ipperwash. I 3 cannot, with any surety, say that I saw this particular 4 note. 5 Q: And at Tab 11, there's an issue note 6 issued by your office dated July 12, 1995. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you recall seeing this 9 document? 10 A: Again, it's generated by my executive 11 officer out of my office and I suspect that I would have 12 read it. But again, after ten (10) years, I can't recall 13 that I saw it. 14 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 15 next exhibit? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-587, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-587: Document No. 2000986 MSGCS 19 issue note July 13/'95 from 20 Commissioner Thomas O'Grady, 21 issue: Native Occupation, 22 Camp Ipperwash 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And with respect to these -- this


1 issue note and others that appear to have been signed by 2 Mr. Duffield or others, is there any way -- any 3 indication as to whether or not the issue notes were sent 4 to the Ministry of the Solicitor General, do we know, or 5 was it the normal course to send them, if generated by 6 your office? 7 A: The normal course would be to send 8 it. It's entitled, MSGCS, so that suggests to me that 9 that was the intention of it and I really am not sure why 10 it would be prepared if that wasn't -- you know, all the 11 work went into preparing it, obviously it would be sent 12 there. 13 This was my method of -- of keeping the 14 deputy Solicitor General and through her the -- the 15 minister, informed as to what was happening. 16 It was also my method of keeping myself in 17 the picture. 18 Q: Okay. And could I take you to Tab 12 19 please? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this is another issue note. This 22 is dated July 31st, 1995 and it deals with the withdrawal 23 of military personnel from Camp Ipperwash and there's 24 attached to it the two (2) page document that has 25 Inspector Carson's name on it.


1 Do you -- and this actual -- this issue 2 note is Exhibit P-562, it's Inquiry Document 200985. And 3 do you recall seeing this document, sir? 4 A: Well I just have to qualify my answer 5 as I did the others. Because it was produced by Phil 6 Duffield out of my office, I likely would have 7 familiarized myself with it. But today, ten (10) years 8 later, I cannot recall that I did see it. 9 Q: Okay. And if I could take you to the 10 next exhibit -- well before I go back there, having -- if 11 you could take a moment to look at this document, Exhibit 12 P-562 and tell me if you're familiar with the -- the 13 contents of both the issue note and the note prepared by 14 Inspector Carson. That's at Tab 12, Mr. O'Grady. 15 A: Yes. That was the one I -- I just 16 spoke of -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- that I can't recall today 19 specifically did I see this. But in the normal course of 20 business I would read these things and since it was 21 prepared in my office and forwarded to the Ministry, I 22 probably read it. 23 Q: And when did you become aware that 24 the occupiers had taken over the built-up area of the 25 army camp on July 29th?


1 A: I'm not sure. 2 Q: And you learned that sometime after 3 July 29th or on July 29th? 4 A: It probably would be after. 5 Q: And at Tab 13 of the book in front of 6 you there's Exhibit P-563, it's Inquiry Document 2000984. 7 Again, it's a issue note but attached to it are a number 8 of e-mails. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And at page 3 there's an e-mail dated 11 July 31, 1995 from Anthony Parkin to Nancy Mansell with a 12 copy to Ron Fox and Dale Linton. And it's also been -- I 13 think it's been marked as Exhibit P-501 and it relates to 14 the takeover of the Park; do you recall seeing this 15 document? 16 In the normal course, if an e-mail went to 17 Nancy Mansell or even Phil Duffield, would the e-mail 18 come to you or simply the information? 19 A: Simply the information and usually 20 the information would be incorporated in the issue note. 21 And as I read the top of it, it appears that -- that the 22 situation is de-escalating there and that the military is 23 withdrawing and so on. 24 So as I read that, that would give me some 25 information and comfort that the situation was -- was


1 declining as far as any issues that the police might have 2 to deal with. 3 Q: Okay. And on the third page of 4 Exhibit P-563 is an e-mail dated August 1, 1995 from 5 Anthony Parkin to Nancy Mansell with a copy to Ron Fox 6 and Dale Linton. And it refers to an accident that took 7 place on July 31st, 1995, the evening of July 31st, the 8 morning of August 1st. 9 Were you aware of that accident at or 10 about the time? 11 A: Well, this one is addressed to the 12 Commissioner. 13 Q: No, you're at a different one. It's 14 -- I'm at the third page, sir. I'll get to the one 15 that's addressed to you shortly. 16 A: It's 984? 17 Q: That says 984, but it's the third 18 page of that document at -- 19 A: This one -- 20 Q: P-13? If you move back two (2) 21 pages, sir, the -- 22 A: Dated August the 1st? 23 Q: There's -- yes. And -- 24 A: I'm -- I'm not sure if I would be 25 aware of this particular e-mail, but I would be aware of


1 the content of it, eventually. 2 Q: And I note that in this e-mail, Mr. 3 Parkin is saying that Inspector Carson will be enjoined - 4 - joined by Inspector Dale Linton from Chatham tomorrow 5 to be briefed and take over as incident commander over 6 the long weekend and that's with respect to the long 7 weekend in August? 8 A: It may very well be. 9 Q: And the decision to appoint Dale 10 Linton as incident commander was a decision made by -- 11 not by you? 12 A: Not by me. 13 Q: Either Mr. -- Superintendent Parkin 14 or -- 15 A: Or Chief Coles. 16 Q: Or -- or Coles? Then at the last 17 page of this document, Exhibit P-563, there is a note to 18 you dated August 1, 1995 and as you indicate, it refers 19 to the accident that took place on the -- July 31, the 20 evening of July 31/August 1st? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And in the normal course, do you 23 recall receiving this letter, this document? It's a 24 memo, actually, from Nancy. 25 A: Perhaps I'm -- I'm looking at the


1 wrong one, the one I'm looking at is -- is addressed to 2 me along with some other people? 3 Q: That's right. 4 A: And -- oh, yes, I see and it's signed 5 by Nancy. So this one I would have read. 6 Again, I just cannot say, categorically, 7 yes I saw this and read it, but I can see why it would 8 have been sent to me because there were -- there were 9 fatalities involving a vehicle accident and there's 10 mention that there was no OPP pursuit; that's one (1) of 11 the things that would be of concern to me, was the OPP 12 involved with respect to causation of the accident and 13 that certainly would be of interest to me. 14 Q: Concern to you? Now, if I could ask 15 if Exhibit P-534 could be provided to the Witness and 16 it's Inquiry Document -- I believe it's 1000... 17 A: I -- I have it, sir, I've got these 18 in a little bit better order now. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I think I can follow it. 21 Q: And the -- if I could just for the 22 benefit of My Friends, I'll get the Inquiry document 23 that's cut off in my copy. It's Inquiry Document 1000918 24 and this is a -- a letter from Marcel Beaubien dated July 25 31, 1995 addressed to Mr. Charles Harnick.


1 And the -- I note that at Tab 14 of the 2 black book in front of you there's a note, a routing memo 3 dated August 1, 1995 and the subject is -- and there's 4 some deletions here, but someone -- the -- someone faxed 5 the letter from Marcel Beaubien to AGCC, the Solicitor 6 General, re: West Ipperwash Property Owner Association, 7 Walpole Island and Kettle and Stony Point First Nations. 8 Legal fees to defend civil action in the Town of 9 Bosanquet and there's a copy, it says, T. O'Grady and 10 then instructions: 11 "No response necessary at this time as 12 letter is not addressed to the 13 minister. If a response should be 14 necessary at a later date, you will be 15 advised." 16 And do you -- it's signed by someone Linda 17 Lane. I -- in the normal course, if this was routed to 18 you and appears among the Ontario Provincial Police 19 documents, it would have been received by your office? 20 A: It would have been, yes. 21 Q: And the letter that was referred to 22 in this document, which I think we should mark as the 23 next exhibit. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-588, Your Honour. 25


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-588: Document No. 2000425 MSGCS 2 routing memo from Linda Lane 3 to Thomas O'Grady re: faxed 4 letter from Marcel Beaubien. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And P-588 is a letter from Mr. 8 Beaubien dated July 31st, 1995. Do you recall -- the 9 routing memorandum is Exhibit 5 -- P-588. The letter of 10 July 31st, '95 is Exhibit P-534. 11 Do you recall seeing the letter of July 12 31st, 1995, Exhibit P-534, before getting ready to 13 testify at the Inquiry, Mr. O'Grady? 14 A: Before getting ready to testify at 15 the Inquiry, yes. 16 Q: And do you recall when you saw it, 17 sir? Did you see at or about -- in July of -- or August, 18 1995 after you were sent the routing memo that's been 19 marked P-588? 20 A: I doubt very much. The reason that I 21 say that is it's ticked that it's to be sent to me, the 22 routing memo, but in the instructions it basically 23 indicates that the Solicitor General is not going to need 24 to respond to this, so for the moment it's not an issue 25 for us to deal with.


1 So at that particular time it would be 2 filed and then if there were further -- further issues 3 raised whereby we had to provide some information for a 4 letter that would be sent by the Solicitor General, then 5 it would come to my attention. 6 Q: And when did it come to your 7 attention? 8 A: Some time subsequent to -- well, when 9 I was advised that I was going to be required at this 10 Inquiry and documents were prepared for me to read, so 11 that would be probably some time this year. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- with respect to the 13 document, there's a note on the second page and this 14 letter, Exhibit P-534 is referring to the issue at West 15 Ipperwash beach. 16 Were you familiar, back in 1995, with that 17 issue? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And so that -- did you have any 20 knowledge of the -- in paragraph 7, the issue: 21 "Law enforcement is basically non- 22 existent and the OPP does not seem too 23 keen in getting involved." 24 Did you have any knowledge of what was 25 happening with respect to the Ontario Provincial Police


1 and -- at West Ipperwash beach? 2 A: Well that particular sentence is not 3 necessarily very complimentary to the OPP. My view was 4 that the OPP was carrying out their normal functions in 5 that area as they always do, but that they would be 6 paying particularly -- it would be particularly sensitive 7 to the issues involving First Nations in that area and I 8 was satisfied of that. 9 So, I -- 10 Q: Did -- 11 A: But this was not my understanding as 12 to what was happening there and so I had no reason to be 13 concerned about what was happening there. 14 Q: And then there's a note: 15 "P.S. I've been briefed by Staff 16 Sergeant Wade Lacroix of the Petrolia 17 OPP detachment this morning." 18 And did you have any concerns that Staff 19 Sergeant Lacroix of the Petrolia OPP detachment was 20 discussing the issues with Mr. Beaubien, the MPP and 21 former Mayor of Petrolia? 22 A: I wasn't aware that he was. But if 23 any of the detachment commanders, the regional commanders 24 were discussing policing and social issues with 25 representatives of the public in that area, whether they


1 would be mayors, reeves, MP's, MPP's, I would expect that 2 to be occurring; that was our focus on community policing 3 was to keep the representatives of the people advised. 4 And if -- if Staff Sergeant Lacroix was 5 doing that, that would be the normal course of business 6 and what I would expect him to be doing. 7 Q: And I believe back in 1995, Staff 8 Sergeant Lacroix was a detachment commander, in the 9 summer, at Petrolia? 10 A: Could have been. From my memory I 11 can't tell you. 12 Q: Okay. And the... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: If I could take you to Tab 17 for a 17 moment, sir? It's Exhibit P-416, Inquiry Document 18 1000923. 19 A: Yes, I have it. 20 Q: And it's an e-mail from Anthony 21 Parkin to Nancy Mansell with a copy to Ron Fox, John 22 Carson and Dale Linton. 23 And based on your earlier answers, I take 24 it you probably did not see this e-mail; is that correct? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And were you advised of the content 2 of the e-mail do you recall by Ms. Mansell or Mr. 3 Duffield, Inspector Duffield 4 A: I cannot recall. 5 Q: Okay. And at -- at Tab 19 is an 6 issue note dated August the 3rd, 1995 over the signature 7 of Nancy Mansell. 8 And do you recall seeing this issue note 9 or being aware of its contents? 10 A: I would have been aware of -- again, 11 I can't recall seeing this particular note, but the 12 information in it is familiar to me and I would say in 13 the normal course of business I would have read it. 14 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark that 15 the next exhibit? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-589, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-589: Document No. 2000983 MSGCS 19 issue note, issue: Native 20 occupation Camp Ipperwash 21 August 03/'95 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And at Tab 21, Mr. O'Grady, there's a 25 issue note again over the signature of Nancy Mansell for


1 Phil Duffield, dated August the 8th, 1995. 2 And again would the same answer apply that 3 you can't recall if you read it but you're familiar with 4 it? 5 A: Yes. And if you -- if you basically 6 look at the position it suggests that, from a policing 7 point of view, everything is going well with respect to 8 Camp Ipperwash. And so that information to me would not 9 -- it wouldn't make me concerned. 10 It would merely reassure me that 11 everything was transpiring in that area that would 12 suggest peaceful resolutions were going forward. 13 Q: Okay. Commissioner, we could perhaps 14 mark that as the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-590, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-590: Document No. 2000982 MSGCS 18 issue note, Issue Native 19 Occupation, Camp Ipperwash, 20 August 03/'95 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 2000982. 24 And at Tab 22, there's a copy of Exhibit 25 415, Inquiry Document 2000364. It's a letter from Acting


1 Superintendent, as he was then, John Carson, to you dated 2 August the 9th, 1995. 3 Do you recall receiving this letter, sir. 4 A: Well again, I cannot say with surety, 5 yes, I saw it, but it was addressed to me, so therefore I 6 would have received it. It's the type of information, in 7 a very succinct form, that I would have wanted and so I - 8 - I guess, to the best of my knowledge, I would have 9 received it, yes. 10 Q: And, there's a note at the -- on page 11 2 and this is -- this appears -- this letter appears to 12 be dealing with tensions between the occupiers and the 13 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation and there's a 14 reference, the -- and the last paragraph on page 2: 15 "The public safety in Ipperwash Park 16 and surrounding areas considered 17 paramount. All indications at this 18 time support the view that tensions 19 between the native groups are beginning 20 to ease." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, what if anything, did you learn 23 in the summer of 1995 about Ipperwash Park? 24 A: Well, I -- I was -- I was of the 25 understanding that the Park had been purchased by the


1 Ontario Government from a private individual who owned 2 it, allegedly, and that that individual had acquired it 3 from some other source that I was not aware of. 4 I knew that First Nations in that area -- 5 some of the -- some groups within the First Nations 6 community in that area did not necessarily agree with 7 that and felt that -- that they had claim to it. But in 8 most of those instances where there were competing claims 9 caused by a variety of issues, I preferred not to base my 10 decisions on that information. 11 As I had stated earlier, I was convinced 12 that as an individual, I could not sort that out and come 13 to any conclusion as to who had claims on what. And so 14 very straightforwardly, and for the police, my feeling 15 was our best of course of action is to ask anyone who 16 wishes us to do something about it, a complainant, for 17 want of a better term, to seek some direction from the 18 Court, which would suggest to the police what they should 19 do. 20 I just did not feel that I or any of my 21 officers were competent to come to the correct 22 conclusions because of a -- a very long and -- and 23 disputed history that has been going on for some time. I 24 just did not feel that we were competent to address that 25 without some direction from the Court.


1 Q: And, did you learn that during August 2 that there might be a takeover of Ipperwash Provincial 3 Park? 4 A: There were suggestions that there may 5 be a takeover. There were suggestions that a particular 6 group that might take over was not receiving support from 7 various other First Nations communities there, that there 8 was some dialogue going on, that there may not be a 9 takeover. 10 It was not clear in my mind as to whether 11 it would happen. So from my point of view, what we 12 needed to do was prepare for all eventualities and hope 13 for the best. 14 Q: And, the -- and we've heard evidence 15 from John Carson and Chris Coles that there was planning, 16 and there was a -- a plan prepared called Project Maple. 17 Were you aware in August or early September 1995, of the 18 details of Project Maple? 19 A: I was not, but I had assurance from 20 Chief Coles that our approach of -- of negotiation, if 21 there was a -- was a takeover of anything, keeping the 22 peace until such time as the parties involved decided to 23 address the issues in a peaceful manner or, barring 24 that, that whoever was complaining would obtain an 25 injunction.


1 And I was -- I was assured that those 2 basic principles was ingrained in the plan. I was 3 convinced of it then, and I'm convinced of it today. 4 Q: And we'll come to it later, but at 5 this time you did not see, back in August or early 6 September 1995, you had -- you did not see a copy of 7 Project Maple? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And at Tab 26 there's an e-mail to 10 you dated September 1, 1995. It's marked Exhibit P-574. 11 It's Inquiry Document 3000768. It's from Nancy Mansell 12 to you with a copy to Phil Duffield, Alan Scott, Sue 13 Laverty, Larry Dorier (phonetic) and Ron Fox. 14 And do you recall receiving this e-mail, 15 sir? 16 A: I can't say that I did, but again, it 17 merely confirms what I've just said is that there -- 18 there may or may not be a takeover of the Park. It might 19 occur on Labour Day and it might occur after Labour Day. 20 Q: After all the campers have left? 21 A: Yes. So, having read that again, I 22 guess I would be less concerned that there were going to 23 be any issues over the weekend if, indeed, that's what 24 happened. 25 Q: Okay. And it just -- like to take


1 you back to -- I put before, and you have a copy there, 2 Exhibit P-418, Inquiry document 1012239. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, what 4 tab is that? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's a -- it's a 6 separate document, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 8 sorry. I don't have that one. Which -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which 11 document -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- it's probably 13 -- it's in the blue -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- folder that I've 16 provided you. It's P-418. 17 THE WITNESS: I have it. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got it, 19 too. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's got a cover 21 sheet, Peter Sturdy. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:


1 Q: And at the third page of document P- 2 418, there's a letter dated August 14th, 1995 from Marcel 3 Beaubien, MPP Lambton, addressed to Mr. Charles Harnick 4 with copies to Mr. Newman (phonetic) at the Ministry of 5 the Attorney General, Mr. Runciman, Solicitor General, 6 though it's spelled incorrectly; Mr. Simser (phonetic) at 7 the Ministry of the Solicitor General and Mr. Hodgson the 8 Minister of Natural Resources. 9 And there's a copy of a letter attached 10 from Mayor Thomas of the Township of Bosanquet. 11 Did you receive a copy of this letter in 12 or about -- on or about August 14th, 1995 or shortly 13 thereafter? 14 A: Not that I recall. 15 Q: And this letter refers to, on page 2, 16 and Item Number 3, to Ministries involved, have to give 17 the OPP clear guidelines for law enforcement. 18 And that's under the heading, The 19 Representatives from the OPP and myself have reached the 20 following consensus. 21 And there's this Item Number 3. Now, I 22 can tell you that John Carson disagreed with this 23 particular paragraph. 24 But what, if anything, do you have to say 25 with respect to the statement by Mr. Beaubien:


1 "Ministries involved have to give OPP 2 clear guidelines for law enforcement." 3 Well, I'll be speculating if I do, but 4 knowing that our officers spoke to him, that's what he 5 refers to here, I think, that he spoke to Parkin, Linton, 6 Carson and Lacroix, and assuming that they were following 7 the guidelines that the force was using at that time, 8 then the clear direction would be the Ministry of Natural 9 Resources seeking a Court Order, an injunction, which 10 would provide clear direction for the OPP. 11 Q: But at the time, back in August 1995, 12 did the Ministry of the Attorney General or the Solicitor 13 General or the Ministry of Natural Resources, as the 14 ministries involved, give guidelines for law enforcement 15 to the OPP? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And would they set, I think you've 18 told us the Solicitor General would set policy but -- and 19 that policy might affect what the OPP did, but did they 20 give you directions as to how to enforce the law? 21 A: Absolutely not. 22 Q: And if someone had given you 23 directions as to how to enforce the law or attempted to, 24 what would you have done with respect to those 25 instructions?


1 A: I would have ignored them or refused. 2 Q: And did this letter -- do you have 3 any recollection of this letter ever having been sent to 4 you by the Solicitor General? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now at Tab 24 of the black book 7 there's an e-mail from Anthony Parkin to Nancy Mansell 8 with a carbon copy to Ron Fox. It's marked -- it's not 9 marked, excuse me. It's Inquiry Document 2000982 and it 10 refers to the -- what was happening at the beach and the 11 army camp. 12 And there's a note on August -- Friday, 13 August 11th: 14 "I met with the local MPP, Marcel 15 Beaubien who is satisfied with the 16 actions of the OPP and what we are 17 doing. His concern was more about the 18 frustration of the cottagers and what 19 they might do. 20 He was going to be talking with the 21 Solicitor and the Attorney General as 22 well as MNR officials because he wants 23 them to understand the seriousness of 24 the situation and provide him with some 25 direction like I said, quiet right


1 now." 2 Do you recall either receiving -- did you 3 receive a copy of this letter -- e-mail from Ms. Mansell? 4 Did she pass it onto you? 5 A: I don't recall that she did. 6 Q: Do you recall if she passed on the 7 information? 8 A: I can't recall that either. 9 Q: Okay. Also mark that -- we're going 10 to have Mr. Park here, we'll mark that the next exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-591. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-591: Document No. 2000982 e-mail 14 from Anthony Parkin to Nancy 15 Mansell subject: Ipperwash 16 Military Base August 14/'95 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Now when did you learn that 20 protesters had entered Ipperwash Provincial Park? 21 A: Well it would be some time shortly 22 after they did, which would be in the afternoon of -- of 23 the 4th of September. And to the best of my 24 recollection, I believe I was advised by Chief Coles. 25 There seems to be some documentation that


1 would indicate by the next morning I certainly knew. But 2 to the best of my recollection, that's how I found out 3 about it. 4 Q: And on September 4th, 1995 did you 5 have any information with respect to a burial ground 6 being in Ipperwash Provincial Park? 7 A: I was vaguely aware that there were 8 those that said there was one. And there were others 9 that said that was not so. As I indicated earlier, to me 10 it was like walking on quick sand. I just did not want 11 to get into it. 12 I wanted to prepare our approach to it, 13 based on firmer stuff than that, which would have been a 14 court order. 15 Q: And with respect to the Project 16 Maple, the plan to deal with the potential occupation, as 17 you told us you were aware of the -- that there was a 18 plan that had been developed your -- as you've told us 19 this morning, assured by Chris Coles that it followed 20 your approach. 21 Did you have anything to do with the 22 execution of the plan on September the 4th? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And the -- when did you learn that 25 the police officers had left the Provincial Park?


1 A: Probably at the same time that Coles 2 called me to tell me that the -- the occupiers had come 3 into the Park, because I think it was probably all one 4 (1) -- as I recall now, it was sort of a continuous 5 action. 6 The First Nations people came into the 7 Park, there was some pushing and shoving with our 8 officers and the decision was made to withdraw to ensure 9 that there was no injury to them, to the MNR personnel 10 who I understood were there, or to our officers. 11 Q: And "them" being the occupiers, The 12 protesters? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And in the normal course of events on 15 an incident such as the takeover of a park or a blockade, 16 would you, as Commissioner, receive a copy of the 17 operational plan to deal with it? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And so that this was -- what happened 20 here was consistent with the regular practice? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And were you concerned that the 23 members of the Ontario Provincial Police had left the 24 Provincial Park? 25 A: Absolutely not.


1 Q: And were you concerned that the plan 2 that had been developed did not provide for enough 3 officers to keep the Provincial Park? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And why were you not concerned? 6 A: Because you are faced with the same 7 issue that I have explained before. If the officers are 8 in the Park and a struggle between First Nations and the 9 officers occurs, and without any solid authority to 10 resist the occupiers, i.e., a court order, we're back in 11 the same situation where we may be dealing with people; 12 we may cause injury to people, we may cause injury to our 13 own officers. 14 Based -- and the -- and the occupiers may 15 be basing their claims on what they feel to be a very, 16 very legitimate claim or what, in fact, may be a 17 legitimate claim and I just don't see how the police 18 could know that and, therefore, the correct decision was 19 to withdraw. 20 Q: Okay. And -- and you were not 21 concerned about that decision? 22 A: No, I was quite happy that they did 23 it. 24 Q: And at Tab 27 there's a document, 25 Duty GHQ, it's Inquiry Document 2000947 dated September


1 4th, 1995, "Duty NCO daily log." Is this the -- can you 2 tell us what this document is? 3 A: Well there's a Duty NCO on duty all 4 the time at General Headquarters and he is supported by 5 an Executive Duty Officer who is on call. And they keep 6 a log of all calls they get, whether significant or 7 insignificant, and in this particular case at 20:37 they 8 had logged the fact that I called in and asked for an 9 update. 10 Q: And do you recall today what you were 11 calling in to ask for an update? 12 A: Well I -- I can recall what I would 13 be calling for in general. This was a practice of mine. 14 Quite often I called in just to see what was happening, 15 especially over a weekend or a long weekend and so they 16 would update me on anything that was occurring in the 17 Province and if I was fortunate, they would say there's 18 very little going on that -- that you need to know 19 about. 20 I suggest that, at this particular time, 21 they were not aware of what happened at Ipperwash, 22 otherwise that might have been mentioned because I think, 23 subsequently, when I call in they say, did I ask for an 24 update on Ipperwash. They didn't say that on this 25 occasion, so they may or may not have known.


1 Q: And I note that at 23:27, there's an 2 entry that there had been a call for a move of the mobile 3 command unit from London to Forest? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And can you place this call, does it 6 help you place the call that you had with Chris Coles? 7 The time here is 20:37. 8 A: Well I have a feeling that Coles' 9 call was considerably after that. 10 Q: And I'd like to have this marked as 11 the next exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-592, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-592: Document No. 2000947 OPP Duty 15 in NCO daily log, September 16 04/'95 0700 hours-0700 hours 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Then at Tab 28, there's Inquiry 20 document 1009040. It's a press release dated September 21 5th, 1995 and do you recall seeing Exhibit P-430 at or 22 about -- on or about September 5th, 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And this relates to the takeover of 25 the Provincial Park?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And were you advised, as noted in the 3 press release: 4 "The group was confronted by Ontario 5 Provincial Police officers and told to 6 leave the Park as they were 7 trespassing. The trespassers refused 8 to leave." 9 A: I was aware of that. 10 Q: And how did you become aware of that? 11 A: Well, the next morning I would have 12 read this press release. 13 Q: Okay. And what were you told by 14 Chief -- do you recall what Chief Coles told you about 15 the interaction between the officers? 16 A: Well, as I recall, he basically 17 advised me that the First Nations occupiers cut the fence 18 and drove through with a car. I think he felt that they 19 had come from the army camp and there was some -- the 20 information I had from him was that there were MNR 21 officials there who told the occupiers or the protesters 22 that they were trespassing and I am sure that possibly 23 was repeated by the OPP. 24 That's pretty well traditional -- a 25 traditional approach of the police, if -- if a trespasser


1 occupies property and the police are there and the 2 alleged owner of the property is there, the police want 3 the owner to advise the trespasser, the alleged 4 trespasser, that they're not welcome and they're to leave 5 and they're to do that in the presence of the police. 6 It gives more effect to Trespass Act if 7 the police decide to enforce it. In this particular 8 instance, there was some shoving and whoever was in 9 charge made the decision that injury could occur to a 10 variety of people and the best course of action to -- was 11 to withdraw and Coles advised me of that and I concurred 12 wholeheartedly. 13 Q: And at Tab 30 there's another extract 14 from the duty log of September 5th, 1995 and there's a 15 reference to you, sir, at 8:12. And this follows up 16 really on what you had said earlier about having a note 17 in the duty log about Ipperwash. It says: 18 "The Commissioner telephoned to enquire 19 about the situation at Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park and its occupations by 21 First Nations members. Informed him of 22 the info contained in the news 23 release." 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 25 that's Tab 29.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Excuse me. Thank you, Tab 29, sir. 4 A little too anxious. 5 A: I wondered if I was the -- having a 6 problem there. 7 Q: No, the problem's with me. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: And what time -- 12 Q: 8:12. 13 A: -- so that's in the duty log. 14 Q: 8 -- at 8:12. 15 A: 8:12, okay. Yes. 16 Q: And does that accurately capture -- 17 A: Yes, it does. 18 Q: -- what happened that -- that 19 morning? 20 A: As far as I can recall, yes it does. 21 Q: Mark that the next exhibit. It would 22 be P-590 -- 23 THE REGISTRAR: 3. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3? 25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-593: Document No. 2000948 OPP Duty 2 in NCO daily log, September 3 05/'95 0700 hours-0700 hours 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Then there's at Tab 30, there's an e- 7 mail, it's Inquiry document 1001101 from Anthony Parkin 8 to Nancy Mansell, carbon copy to Phil Duffield and Ron 9 Fox. 10 This e-mail has been marked as Exhibit P- 11 429 and Exhibit P-511. And, again, it refers to the 12 occupation and do you recall if this e-mail was brought 13 to your attention? 14 A: Again, I don't recall but I would 15 suspect that it was. 16 Q: And either the e-mail or the contents 17 of it? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And Superintendent Parkin notes in 20 the third paragraph: 21 "MNR officials are attempting to obtain 22 an injunction against the occupiers and 23 also tried to serve a notice indicating 24 the Park was closed. That they are, in 25 fact, were trespassing and would not


1 accept service of the notice." 2 And were you aware at mid-day on September 3 5th that -- or on September 5th that the MNR were 4 attempting to obtain an injunction? 5 A: It's exactly -- from my conversations 6 with Coles, I would have been and I was convinced that 7 that's exactly the process that would occur and that our 8 people would be telling the Ministry of Natural Resources 9 that that would be the course of action if they wished 10 the OPP to take any action. 11 So there's nothing in there that would 12 surprise me. In fact, whatever is in there would 13 reassure me that the process was proceeding as one would 14 expect. As I would expect. 15 Q: And at Tab 31 there's a Exhibit P- 16 564, it's Inquiry Document 3000769. It's an issue note 17 dated September 5th, 1995 at 4:39 p.m. And do you recall 18 seeing this document, sir? 19 A: Certainly the information is familiar 20 to me. 21 Q: And the injunction is referred to in 22 the fourth -- at the very bottom in the fourth paragraph 23 that the MNR is seeking an injunction? 24 A: Yes, the last bullet point. 25 Q: And on September 5th that was the


1 information you had? 2 A: Yes. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps it's one 4 o'clock, sir. That would be an appropriate time to break 5 for lunch? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. We'll 7 adjourn for lunch. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 9 adjourned until 2:15 p.m. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 2:17 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed. Please be seated. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: On September 5th did -- I've asked 19 you about September 4th, September 5th and September 6th 20 about any discussions you had with any of the Ministers 21 or political staff et cetera, and you said that you did 22 not have any discussions. 23 Did you delegate anyone to speak to the 24 Ministers or their political staff on your behalf on 25 September 4th, 5th or 6th?


1 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: And last week I asked you a question 3 about the Discipline Committee -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- and back 1995 and you wanted to 6 add something about that. 7 A: Well just to explain the composition 8 of it. The Chair of the committee was a deputy 9 commissioner. The members consisted of the Director of 10 Provincial Standards Branch who is a superintendent, 11 another superintendent, and an inspector from a district. 12 They didn't always remain the same but the composition 13 then was a deputy commissioner, two (2) superintendents 14 and an inspector. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now if I could 16 take you to Tab 32 of the black book in front of you and 17 it's Inquiry Document 2001053. And it's entitled, MSCGCS 18 Issue Note, and it's struck out. And it's dated 19 September 6th, 1995, 10:30 a.m. and written, "Not 20 circulated. Issue Ministerial Role Re. OPP Operational 21 Matters". 22 Do you recall -- did you see this document 23 in or about September 6th, 1995? 24 A: I don't recall seeing it. 25 Q: And this is a document from the OPP


1 files. Do you know how this document got into the OPP 2 files, Commissioner? 3 A: I'm not sure but it relates to -- to 4 the OPP and I'm really not -- not sure how it got into 5 the files. But it's something that relates to the OPP 6 and may very well have been forwarded. 7 Q: And does this note accurately set out 8 the relationship between the Commissioner of the OPP and 9 the Solicitor General? 10 A: Yes, it does. 11 Q: Perhaps we'll mark that the next 12 exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-594, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-594: Document No. 2001053 not 17 circulated MSGCS issue note 18 September 06/'95 issue: 19 Ministerial role re: OPP 20 Operational matters. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And this one is -- the staff contact 24 is Diane Dougall, D-O-U-G-A-L-L, Legal Services Branch. 25 Do you know who Ms. Dougall is?


1 A: I do. And the Legal Services Branch 2 is located in the Solicitor General's Ministry in 3 Toronto. 4 Q: Was Ms. Dougall from the -- in the 5 Solicitor General's office at that -- Ministry at that 6 time? 7 A: She was. She's actually seconded as 8 all legal people are from the Ministry of the Attorney 9 General. But she along with a number of other employers 10 formed a -- a branch of the Ministry. 11 Q: Of the Solicitor General? 12 A: Of the Solicitor General. 13 Q: Now on September 6th, 1995 the -- if 14 you note that we just looked at, that wasn't circulated, 15 Exhibit P-594, states at the top, "The Commissioner...", 16 at Tab 32: 17 "The Commissioner of the OPP is aware 18 of the events at Ipperwash Provincial 19 Park and OPP officers are monitoring 20 the situation." 21 And, that's a correct statement, you were 22 aware? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: And then, on September the 6th, what 25 involvement, if any, did you have with respect to the


1 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 2 A: I may have received a phone call or 3 information from Chief Superintendent Coles, but quite 4 frankly, I can't remember any involvement. The -- the 5 Park had been occupied; I was aware of that. 6 I knew that the usual approach was going 7 to be made by the OPP with respect to the occupiers. 8 That had been done, as I indicated earlier, perhaps 9 ten/fifteen (10/15) times before, all with good results 10 and -- 11 Q: The usual approach being an 12 injunction? 13 A: Injunction if necessary, but 14 sometimes just through negotiating and -- and sorting out 15 the wishes of the various parties, a resolution could be 16 temporarily made. 17 And so, at that point in time, I had no 18 concern and no reason to believe that the same result 19 wouldn't be obtained. 20 Q: And, do you recall speaking to Chris 21 Coles on September the 6th? 22 A: I don't specifically recall, but I 23 could very well have been. 24 Q: And, were you aware on September 6th 25 what the Government was going to do, if anything, with


1 respect to an injunction? 2 A: My understanding was that they were 3 moving towards getting an injunction. I know that -- I 4 knew at that time that the position of the MNR, which is 5 essentially the Government's position, was that it was 6 their property and they wanted those that were occupying 7 out of there. And if they didn't leave voluntarily, then 8 they would be moving towards getting an injunction. 9 And, in fact, that that had been the 10 advice to them locally in the area of -- of Ipperwash 11 that that's the process they should follow if they wish 12 the OPP to have any further involvement. 13 Q: And, were you aware that an OPP 14 officer might be involved in providing information with 15 respect to the injunction? 16 A: I'm not sure that I was, but I 17 certainly wouldn't have been -- I wouldn't have found 18 that unusual. 19 Q: And were -- back on September the 20 6th, 1995, did you have any knowledge as to whether or 21 not the injunction was going to be ex parte or without 22 notice? 23 A: I don't think at that particular time 24 I -- I put my mind to it at all. 25 Q: And, are you familiar with what an


1 injunction without notice is? 2 A: Yes, I am. 3 Q: And, what is your view as -- with 4 respecting injunctions without notice? 5 A: Well, it basically would be a -- a 6 proceeding where the complainant would -- would produce 7 evidence to a judge which would indicate the reasons why 8 force should be used to remove -- force, or some means 9 should be used to remove an occupier from land that was 10 claimed by the seeker of the injunction. 11 But just one (1) side of the story would 12 be heard and the other side of the story wouldn't be 13 heard simply because the other side would not get notice 14 that this was -- this was happening. 15 Q: And, was is your -- what was your 16 view back in '95 of those types of injunctions? 17 A: Well, my -- my view is that both 18 sides should be heard and there's a practical reason for 19 that. If both sides are heard and the judge makes his 20 decision and -- and for the sake of argument we could 21 assume that he grant an injunction, then the -- the other 22 side is -- is well aware that they've had an opportunity 23 to explain to the judge why they think they have a right 24 to be there. 25 The judge has considered that along with


1 the other evidence that's put before him or her, and in 2 spite of that has decided that the -- order is going to 3 be for the OPP to take some action. 4 So, the end result of that is, I think, a 5 much stronger case that when the OPP go to explain that 6 to the occupiers, the probability of them acquiescing to 7 the order without the OPP having to use any force, is 8 quite good I think. And so, I would rather be in that 9 position. 10 Q: Okay. Now, I'd like to take you to 11 Tab 34 of the black book in front of you. And that's an 12 extract from Exhibit P-444(a) at Tab 37. A conversation 13 between John Carson, the incident commander, Ron Fox and, 14 subsequently, Chief Superintendent Coles. 15 And if I could take you, firstly, to page 16 264, and the page numbers are on the bottom of the page-- 17 A: I have them. 18 Q: -- Mr. O'Grady. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And there is a reference in the 21 middle of the page, there's -- if you go up the first 22 entry after -- by Mr. Fox on page 264, he believes that 23 he has the authority to direct the OPP and he's referring 24 there, parenthetically Mr. O'Grady to then Premier 25 Harris, and Carson says:


1 "Oh. 2 Fox: Yeah. 3 Carson: Okay. 4 Fox: So. 5 Carson: I hope he'll be talking to 6 the Commissioner about that. 7 Fox: Ah, pardon me. 8 Carson: I'll [something] to the 9 Commissioner and have that discussion. 10 Fox: Oh yeah? Well, of course, the 11 Commissioner is already brought into 12 the loop on this." 13 Now did you have any discussions with Ron 14 Fox on September 4th, September 5th or September 6th up 15 to 2:00 p.m.? 16 A: No, I did not. 17 Q: And did you have any discussions with 18 Ron Fox after 2:00 p.m.? 19 A: No, I did not. 20 Q: Obviously not. And then at -- if I 21 -- if you could please turn to page 269, this is part of 22 the conversation between Ron Fox and Chris Coles and I am 23 at the third Coles entry from the bottom: 24 "Coles: The problem with that, Ron, 25 is..."


1 And then unidentified. 2 "If you're not careful, you're going to 3 run the issue here as opposed to 4 deem..." 5 Excuse me. 6 "You're going -- if you're not careful, 7 you're going to run the issue there as 8 opposed to the -- myself and the 9 Commissioner running it here and so we 10 had better be careful. 11 I have no objection to it, because I 12 know you have no objection to you 13 phoning John, but the only trouble is 14 you're not going to be -- you're -- if 15 not, you're going to be the fastest 16 source of information they've got. 17 Fox: Hmm hmm. 18 Coles: And now with them we're going 19 to end up in it. We're going to end up 20 running it politically." 21 And then he goes on at page 272: 22 "Coles: Well, stall them to the 23 amount, I mean right now I know that 24 the Commissioner is resurrecting the 25 old, what has always been our approach,


1 because he feels he's now going to 2 start getting some pressure." 3 Did you have a discussion with Chris Coles 4 on September the 6th about resurrecting the old approach 5 and that you felt you might start getting some pressure? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: And I believe Chris Coles, when he 8 testified, indicated that he was taking some license when 9 he indicated he was resurrect -- you were resurrecting 10 the old approach. 11 Do you have anything to say about that? 12 A: Well, I think there's a lot of 13 documentation on the record which indicates that our 14 approach had been consistently just that. The -- 15 following the 1991 memo, so if he means by "old," from 16 '91 on to '95, I guess he's right when he says "old," but 17 there never was any change from that approach and all of 18 the documentation that I've seen, everybody seems to be 19 very consistent that that's -- that was the repro -- 20 approach and certainly that was the approach I thought 21 was being followed and I still think it was being 22 followed. 23 Q: To get an injunction? 24 A: If need be, yes. 25 Q: And did you know, on September 6th,


1 what the position of the Government was with respect to 2 the protesters in the Park? 3 A: I knew -- I was convinced that they 4 were, through the -- the Ministry of Natural Resources 5 using what evidence they had and evidence that they 6 thought might be necessary from the police through the 7 good offices of the Attorney General's Ministry were in 8 the throws of getting an injunction. 9 Q: And -- but did you know what the 10 position was vis-a-vis the injunc the protesters, what 11 they wanted done with the protesters? 12 A: Not that I know of, no. 13 Q: Okay. And the -- on September the 14 6th, did you, as Commissioner of the OPP, feel under 15 pressure to remove the protesters from Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park? 17 A: I did not. 18 Q: And did you receive any telephone 19 call, e-mail, fax or any other communication from any 20 Minister of the Crown, the Ontario Government, Ontario 21 Crown or anyone on their behalf with respect to removing 22 the protesters from the Park on September the 6th? 23 A: Absolutely not. 24 Q: Or on any other date -- 25 A: No.


1 Q: -- at that time? And when did you 2 learn that the Crowd Management Unit had been deployed to 3 the sandy parking lot outside the Provincial Park and 4 that Dudley George had been shot? 5 A: It would have been very, very early 6 in the morning of September the 7th, possibly in the area 7 of one o'clock and then I believe that there were other 8 communications after that. But that's when I would have 9 first... 10 Q: And at Tab 35 there's another 11 document, another copy of the daily log dated September 12 6th, 1995. 13 Do you see that, sir? 14 A: Yes, I'm looking at it. 15 Q: And it's Inquiry Document 5000326. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And if you go over to page 2 of that 18 document 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- there's a note at 1:04, that would 21 be September the 7th. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "The EDO telephoned for further 24 updating and to advise that the 25 Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner G.


1 Boose had been notified." 2 Do you see that entry? 3 A: I do. That's the executive duty 4 officer. 5 Q: And the -- by 1:04 you had been 6 notified? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then -- perhaps we could mark 9 this the next exhibit, Commissioner. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-595, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-595: Document No. 5000326 OPP duty 13 NCO daily log September 14 06/'95 0700 hours-0700 hours 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And on page 3 of P-595, at 2:45, that 18 the Commissioner telephoned for updating about the above. 19 And can you recall what you were calling to be updated 20 on, sir? 21 A: Clearly if it -- yes, it would be 22 Ipperwash. 23 Q: And the -- then there's a note at 24 2:55: 25 "Inspector Ron Fox seconded to Sol Gen.


1 Telephone advising that he had received 2 a telephone call from the Executive 3 Assistant inquiring about Ipperwash and 4 requested updating and the telephone 5 number for the Commissioner. Informed 6 of basics and given the number 7 requested." 8 Did you receive, after 2:55 on the morning 9 of September 7th, a call from the -- either Minister of 10 the Solicitor General, the Executive Assistant or the 11 Deputy Solicitor General? 12 A: The Executive Assistant that's 13 mentioned there is the Executive Assistant to the Deputy 14 Minister. And the Deputy Minister, Dr. Elaine Todres did 15 phone me and we had a discussion about the events and 16 that would have been somewhat after three o'clock in the 17 morning. 18 Q: Okay. And then at 6:50 there's a 19 note, an Exhibit P-595: 20 "Ms. B. Taylor and Inspector R. Fox 21 began telephoning for a fax being 22 reviewed by the Commissioner, duty 23 officer emergency access card was 24 obtained to use the fax from him to 25 send copies."


1 And is the -- do you know what fax is 2 being referred to? 3 A: I believe that was material that 4 contained a quote from me as Commissioner and the inquiry 5 was to ensure that I was content with what it said and I 6 think we will -- we will see it, perhaps, at Tab 36. 7 Q: At Tab 36 there is a draft dated 8 September 7th that refers to the Minister, and then at 9 the bottom a statement from OPP Commissioner Tom O'Grady, 10 quote: 11 "This situation is an isolated 12 incident. The OPP has a proven track 13 record of many years of peacefully 14 resolving issues with First Nations 15 people. The events of last night are 16 tragic and we are committed to a course 17 of action which will bring this 18 situation to a peaceful conclusion as 19 quickly as possible." 20 Do you recall reviewing that statement, 21 Commissioner? 22 A: I do and if my memory is correct, 23 that's the one that relates to the 0650 activity. 24 Q: And that's Inquiry Document 1018 -- 25 1011812 and perhaps we could mark that the next exhibit?


1 THE REGISTRAR: P-596, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-596: Document No. 1011812 draft 4 September 07/'95 MAG/MSGCS 5 Minister's positioning 6 statements re: Ipperwash 7 incident and Commissioner Tom 8 O'Grady's statement 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Now, there are a number of press 12 releases that were issued and perhaps we could give the 13 Witness Exhibits 433, 434 and 440, as well as Exhibit 14 576? 15 It's Exhibits P-434, 433, 440 and P-576. 16 And it's Inquiry Document Number P-434, it's Inquiry 17 Document Number 1009045. P-433 is 1009044. P-440, 18 1009047 and P-576 is 1001088. And P-576 actually appears 19 at Tab 37, Mr. O'Grady. 20 A: I believe I have them all, then. 21 Q: You have them all there? 22 A: Four thirty-four (434) -- or four 23 thirty-three (433), Four thirty-four (434), four forty 24 (440) and if this is five seventy-six (576), that's one 25 (1), two (2), three (3), four (4) of them?


1 Q: Yes. And starting firstly with P- 2 434, this relates to what is known as a picnic table 3 incident that took place in the morning of -- or removal 4 of some picnic tables in the morning of September the 5 6th. 6 Were you aware of this press release, P- 7 434? 8 A: I'm not sure if I was. 9 Q: Okay. And were you aware of the 10 removal of the picnic tables from the sandy parking lot 11 outside the Park? 12 A: Probably not. 13 Q: And P-433 Inquiry Document 1009044 is 14 dated September 6th and, again, relates to the evening of 15 September the 5th. Were you aware of this -- had you 16 seen this press release? 17 A: I'm -- clearly I've seen it since 18 then, but I can't recall if I saw it on or shortly after 19 September the 6th. 20 Q: And were you advised of the events of 21 the evening of September the 5th? 22 A: I knew that there was some damage to 23 our vehicles, and I may very well have seen this -- this 24 release. 25 Q: And P-440 is a release that was


1 issued on September the 7th. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you see that press release? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: On September the 7th? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And did you speak to Chris Coles on - 8 - Chris Coles, you indicated earlier, had called you and 9 what did Chris Coles tell you that had happened in the 10 sandy parking lot? 11 A: Well he had very sparse information 12 at that time but, essentially, that there had been a 13 confrontation; there had been an exchange of gunfire. 14 At that time his information was that our 15 officers had been fired upon and that there had been a 16 return of fire and that there had been injuries and 17 probably a fatality and the -- the investigation was 18 continuing and he was going to the scene. 19 Q: Okay. And did you have conversations 20 during the 7th with Chris Coles or other senior members 21 of the OPP? 22 A: It's likely that I did; I can't 23 recall exactly, but it's likely that I did. 24 Q: And P-576 at Tab 37 is entitled, 25 "Clarification of events." It's Inquiry document number


1 1001088 -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And why was it necessary to issue 4 clarification of events? 5 A: Well there were -- well, first of 6 all, it contains -- it's -- it's -- the language is 7 changed to some degree but the third paragraph really 8 reflects the information that was in the local press 9 release at Forest. And they were, to a degree, 10 simultaneous. 11 The first paragraph indicates that the 12 police were not there to remove the individuals from the 13 occupied grounds, because as I understand it from memory, 14 there were media release -- there were media reports 15 that, in fact, that's what the OPP had gone there to do. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And so it was felt necessary that 18 that portion should be clarified that the OPP had not 19 gone there to remove the individuals. 20 Q: And if I could take you to P-440, 21 which appears to have been issued, actually in the 22 morning, whereas the clarification was issued at night, 23 the time on the P-440 is 6:29 a.m., and the P-656 appears 24 to have been issued at 18:21. 25 And if you look at page -- at P-440, it


1 refers, in the first paragraph, to: 2 "At 7:55 a disturbance was reported to 3 the OPP at Parkway Drive and Army Camp 4 Road where police had removed a number 5 of picnic tables and two (2) tents from 6 the public roadway yesterday. 7 A private citizen's vehicle was damaged 8 by a number of First Nations people 9 armed with baseball bats. 10 As a result of this, the OPP Crowd 11 management team was deployed to 12 disperse the crowd of First Nations 13 people, which had gathered at that 14 location which is township property, 15 adjacent to Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 and local cottages." 17 Now were you told, specifically, by Chris 18 Coles or Tony Parkin or someone else, that the vehicle, 19 private citizen's vehicle was damaged by a number of 20 First Nations people armed with baseball bats? 21 A: It's hard to recall exactly what I 22 was told, but I -- I believed that I was aware that a 23 vehicle had been damaged and that an individual was 24 concerned or the police were concerned for the safety of 25 an individual in relation to the vehicle.


1 Q: And this press release in -- appears 2 to indicate that it was as a result of the -- it does 3 indicate that as a result of this, referring to the 4 damage by baseball bats to the vehicle, that the OPP 5 crowd management team was deployed to disperse the crowd 6 of First Nations people. 7 Was that your understanding on September 8 the 7th as to why the Ontario Provincial Police or John 9 Carson had deployed the crowd management unit? 10 A: My understanding, it was the 11 culmination of a number of things over the short course 12 of time prior to this. 13 All of that, as a result or, at least, all 14 of that led to him making a decision to send personnel 15 down the road, first to ascertain what was going on there 16 and take appropriate action to keep the occupiers in the 17 Park. 18 Q: And were you -- when -- were you made 19 aware at some point that there was no car damaged by 20 baseball bats? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And the -- the evidence is that the 23 car -- that's come out at this Inquiry is that the car 24 that was involved was a car driven by Gerald George and 25 was struck by one (1) rock that was thrown.


1 Did anyone ever tell you that? 2 A: I don't think so. I think what I 3 knew was the car was damaged and as a result of that, the 4 occupier of the car, the police felt, was in danger. 5 And that was one of the issues that 6 they're -- that Carson was considering, along with 7 others, before he activated his staff. 8 Q: Did anyone, prior to you leaving as 9 Commissioner of the OPP, tell you that the individual 10 involved in the altercation had been very critical of the 11 occupiers? 12 A: No. 13 Q: That, in fact, he had written a 14 letter very critical of the occupiers to the Forest 15 Standard, the local newspaper, which had been published 16 the week before? 17 A: To the best of my knowledge, I was 18 not aware of that. 19 Q: Now, there was a request made on 20 September the 7th that -- if you could turn to Tab 38, 21 please. 22 A: Perhaps, just before we -- we leave 23 that, there's something that bothers me just a little 24 bit. Whether I had known that or not, whether the 25 individual had written a letter that was critical and


1 therefore upset some of the other people there, the 2 police are there to protect everybody and use of violence 3 is not the way to settle a dispute that you have with 4 somebody. 5 And so whether it was a First Nations 6 person or some other individual that just was going by, I 7 would consider it in the same light. 8 Q: But would -- would you not agree with 9 me, however, that there is a substantial difference 10 between someone throwing a rock at a car and that a 11 private citizen's vehicle being damaged by a number of 12 First Nations people armed with baseball bats? 13 A: If that's not correct, yes. 14 Q: And that -- that type of statement 15 is, with respect, highly inflammatory? 16 A: It -- it might be construed that way 17 but I -- I guess I come back to my original position, if 18 -- regardless of who it is, if violence is being used 19 against them, it's a serious matter. 20 Q: The -- we'll come back to that. 21 A: I -- I could see your point. What 22 you're trying to say is that that type of information in 23 the public media would ha -- may have some affect in the 24 area. But it's a -- it's a difficult issue to split 25 hairs on.


1 Q: Well but, Commissioner -- Mr. O'Grady 2 we're not really splitting hairs. Would you not agree 3 that -- that if I said -- issued a press release that 4 said, Last night in front of my house a bunch of young 5 people smashed up cars with baseball bats, that people 6 would take that differently than if, in fact, what had 7 happened in front of my house, somebody had thrown a rock 8 at a car? 9 A: I suppose -- yes. The -- the numbers 10 would be -- would suggest an escalated situation, I 11 agree. 12 Q: And the use of baseball bats would 13 suggest the use of -- an escalated situation? 14 A: Yes. The use of rocks does also. I 15 -- I guess I would just make a final comment, from my 16 point of view, that I would prefer that information that 17 goes into press releases to be accurate. We can't always 18 seem to do that but that would be my preference. 19 Q: Were you aware that at 10:44 on the 20 evening of, I guess you weren't, that approximately 10:44 21 on the evening of September the 6th at or about the time 22 -- the same time the Crowd Management Unit was proceeding 23 down East Parkway Drive that Dale Linton, in the mobile 24 command unit, had received a report from Constable Dew 25 (phonetic) that in fact the damage to the car was a rock


1 and not baseball bats? 2 A: I wasn't aware of that. 3 Q: Now at Tab 38 there's an e-mail from 4 Phil Duffield to Barb Taylor with a copy to you that 5 refers to a letter and asking that someone print the 6 letter, walk it over to the Minister of the Solicitor 7 General for his signature and -- and paragraph 2 it says: 8 "With more time the Commissioner would 9 have sent a cover memo requesting that 10 the Minister process the attached 11 letter to initiate the process of 12 establishing a protocol to allow the 13 OPP to access armored personnel 14 carriers from the Department of 15 National Defense in emergent 16 situations. 17 The current situations in Ipperwash and 18 in British Columbia are examples of the 19 volatile and unpredictable situations 20 facing law enforcement agencies and I 21 suggest they support the need for this 22 request to be expedited." 23 And at Tab 39, that's Inquiry Document 24 1001557, and at Tab 39 is Inquiry Document 1001558 and 25 it's a letter to the Honourable Herb Gray, Solicitor


1 General of Canada. And this case signed by Mr. Runciman, 2 was that the letter that was being forwarded by Mr. 3 Duffield for the signature of Mr. Runciman? 4 A: Yes, it was. 5 Q: And what was your understanding of 6 the need -- how did this request to obtain an armored 7 personnel carrier come to you? 8 A: It would have come through the -- 9 either through Chris Coles or his staff down there who 10 would have made the request. And my understanding was 11 that it was based on activities that had occurred in 12 British Columbia where the RCMP used such a vehicle to, I 13 guess, for want of a better term, rescue some of their 14 people that had come under fire and were able to do it 15 successfully. 16 And it appeared to the people, our people 17 in Ipperwash, the command staff, that such a vehicle 18 would be helpful to them if the situation got worse, and 19 so as a protective measure, we should expedite. 20 Q: And, what was your understanding of 21 what use was going to be made of that personnel carrier 22 if one had been obtained? 23 A: For the exact same purpose as the 24 RCMP used it. If we had people in precarious positions, 25 where they could be seriously hurt, we could use it to


1 evacuate them without exposing our people to further 2 danger. 3 Q: And, the letter refers to BC and 4 what's being referred to there is the situation back in 5 1995, in the summer, at Gustafson Lake? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And, you directed that an OPP 8 officer, I believe it was Inspector Hutchinson be -- go 9 out to BC; is that correct? 10 A: I did so. 11 Q: And, that was your decision, sir? 12 A: Yes, it was. 13 Q: And, why did you send Inspector 14 Hutchinson out to British Columbia? 15 A: I thought that from the experience 16 that the RCMP were having and their approach to the 17 situation and their activities, that useful advice could 18 be obtained from them that would assist us in making our 19 decisions in the future. 20 Q: And, did you receive reports from 21 Inspector Hutchinson or who did he report to? 22 A: He didn't report directly to me, of 23 course, but I do believe that he reported to Chris Coles 24 with respect to -- to what he learned there. 25 Q: We know that he also spoke to John


1 Carson, the incident commander. 2 A: Exactly. 3 Q: Now perhaps, Commissioner, we could 4 mark the e-mail at Tab 38 as the next exhibit, Inquiry 5 Document 1001557? 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-598, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-598: Document 1001557 email from 9 Phil Duffield to Barbara 10 Taylor re: Protocol for OPP 11 of Military vehicles 12 September 07/'95 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, the letter signed 15 by Mr. Runciman to Mr. Gray dated September 7th as the 16 next exhibit. It would be P-599 and it's Inquiry 17 Document 1001558. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-599: Document 1001558 "Letter to 21 Hon. Herb Gray, Solicitor 22 General of Canada from Robert 23 Runciman, MPP." September 24 07/'95 25


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, this -- to close 2 this particular loop... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, 7 Commissioner. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: At Tab 48 there's another -- there's 13 a issue note dated September 25th, 1995. It's Inquiry 14 Document 2001050 and attached to it there's another 15 letter from Mr. Runciman to th Honourable Herb Gray, and 16 a list of equipment, and then a letter dated October 3rd, 17 1995, from Mr. Gray back to Mr. Runciman. 18 And did you receive copies of these 19 documents back in 1995? 20 A: I'm sure that I would have. 21 Q: And, did the Ontario Provincial 22 Police obtain a armoured personnel carrier from the 23 Federal Government? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And, the -- but the Ontario


1 Provincial Police did obtain an armoured personnel 2 carrier? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, do you know how that came about? 5 A: Well, I know that they're -- they're 6 manufactured or were manufactured, I believe, in London 7 and I -- my understanding is that the London Police had 8 access to one (1). And the OPP locally learned of that 9 and were able to take a -- a loan of it from the London 10 Police. 11 Q: And, did you play any role in that, 12 sir? 13 A: I did not. 14 Q: And was there a response to the 15 letter that we marked as Exhibit P-599, dated September 16 7th, separate and apart from the letter that's at Tab 48? 17 A: I -- at this time, I can't recall 18 that there was. 19 Q: Okay. Perhaps we could mark these 20 two (2) letters, the September 19th letter of 1995 and 21 the response from Mr. Gray that are part of Exhibit 22 2001050 as the next exhibit. It would be P-600, mark 23 them collectively? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The whole 25 document, P-600?


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, just -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or just 3 those letters? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Those letters. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, why 6 don't we mark the letter of September 19th, Exhibit 600; 7 is that right? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, I was thinking -- 9 I was -- why don't we just mark them both? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll mark 11 them both together. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Just the letters, though? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just the letters. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-600: Document 2001050 letter from 16 Robert Runciman to Herb Gray 17 September 19/'95 and letter 18 from Herb Gray to Robert 19 Runciman October 03/'95. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Now, at Tab 43, firstly if I could go 23 to Tab 40. This is -- Tab 40 is an extract from the, in 24 this case, Exhibit P-426 which is the scribe notes from 25 the incident command.


1 That's at Tab 40, sir. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And there's a reference 21:57? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "Gerry Thompson off phone, advised 6 Kent Skinner the Province is under 7 provincial alert" 8 And then it says: 9 "Bottomline from Tom O'Grady, we are to 10 save our guys. We give up locations if 11 need be." 12 Do you see that, sir? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And do you agree with me that both 15 lines should be bottomline? 16 A: I do. 17 Q: And do -- do you agree -- do you 18 recall speaking to Jerry Thompson on September the 7th? 19 A: No, and I'm quite sure that I didn't. 20 But I'm quite sure that Jerry Thompson would have known 21 from information that I gave Chris Coles when they 22 withdrew from the Park that that was our approach, and 23 especially on September the 7th after we had had a 24 fatality and injuries that we weren't going to have any 25 more.


1 Q: And so that the -- when he said -- is 2 reported to have said: 3 "Bottomline from Tom O'Grady, we're to 4 save our guys. We give up locations if 5 need be." 6 That was your position whether or not he 7 had spoken to you or not? 8 A: That's true. So, what I'm saying is, 9 I don't know he acquired that information, but it would 10 have been readily available from a lot of people. 11 Q: And that was the position? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And at Tab 41 there's a document 14 that's Inquiry Document 3000057, and this is a document 15 that lists on Tab 3 core working group. And it says the 16 core -- the introduction is: 17 "A core working group has been 18 established to manage, direct and 19 facilitate the information gathering 20 and dissemination to support the 21 Ministry's role. 22 The core working group is composed of a 23 number of people [and then] 24 Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial 25 Police and/or a representative."


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the -- did you become a member of 3 the core working group or did you delegate someone to be 4 your representative? 5 A: I don't recall that I did and if I 6 look at my diary I don't see that I spent much activity 7 with respect to -- to the core working group. In fact 8 I'm not familiar with it at all. 9 I may have had a representative there or 10 it may very well be that those that made up this wished 11 to have either myself or a representative. It may be 12 that we never took part in it. I'm not really familiar 13 with this document at all. 14 Q: Okay. We will ask someone else about 15 this document. And this document, in fact, there's a 16 number of telephone numbers that should have been 17 redacted from this document that aren't. And so when we 18 deal with it, we'll deal with it, with a redacted copy. 19 Then at Tab 42 is an issue note dated 20 September 8th, 1995 and it's issued by Phil Duffield, 21 Office of the Commissioner, and at 7:09 a.m., "First 22 Nations occupation Ipperwash Provincial Park". 23 Do you recall if you saw this document on 24 or about September 8th, Mr. O'Grady? 25 A: I'm quite sure I probably did.


1 Q: And it's updating the -- updating the 2 situation? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 5 as the next exhibit, P-601. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-601: Document No. 2001052 MSGCS 8 issue note (version 2) First 9 Nations occupation-Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park September 11 08/'95 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And there's a note, the fourth bullet 15 down: 16 "Further comment on this issue would be 17 inappropriate as a Special 18 Investigations Unit of the Ministry of 19 the Attorney General are conducting an 20 investigation." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And by this time, in fact, on 23 September 7th, the SIU had been called in? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the -- the next note:


1 "The Ontario Provincial Police and 2 Native leaders including Ovide 3 Mercredi, Grand Chief of the Assembly 4 of First Nations are involved in 5 seeking a peaceful resolution to the 6 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 7 Park." 8 Did you have any discussions with Mr. 9 Mercredi? 10 A: I did not. 11 Q: And do you know who was discussing 12 the situation with Mr. Mercredi? 13 A: I believe that Chris Coles was. 14 Q: Chris Coles? 15 A: And I -- the reason I say, you know, 16 it's hard to remember these things, but you can recall 17 what you understood the situation to be at that time. 18 And so the -- especially the first part of 19 this issue note reflects in my mind exactly what I 20 thought was taking place at that time. So therefore, I 21 would have had to have read this to get that information. 22 Q: Then at Tab 43 there's an extract 23 from the scribe notes; Inquiry Document 1002419. And the 24 scribe notes, Commissioner, that we've marked thus far 25 only go up to page 158 and this is dated September 14th,


1 1995. And if I could take you to the bottom entry at 2 17:57 it says: 3 "Inspector Thompson receives phone call 4 from Inspector Duffield, Commissioner's 5 Office, asked for present status and 6 source of news release reference that 7 this is no longer a police issued [it 8 says 'issued' but I think it should be 9 issue], responded with report of our 10 patrol and availability of ERT, TRU and 11 that intelligence would identify that 12 if there's a problem, it will probably 13 be Saturday afternoon. (Commissioner 14 O'Grady made same enquiry to EOC 15 approximately ten (10) minutes ago)." 16 What -- do you know what EOC means? 17 A: It's the Emergency Operation Center 18 which is at General Headquarters at Orillia. 19 Q: And that was the Emergency Operation 20 Center that was established on September 7th? 21 A: Post September 6th. 22 Q: Post September 6th. And what is -- 23 did you ask Phil Duff -- Inspector Duffield to inquire 24 into the reference that this is no longer a police issue? 25 A: I may have. I -- this, I guess, is


1 an example of something being reported in the -- in the 2 media which was, in my view, incorrect and I really 3 wanted to know what the source of it was and so I may 4 have spoken to Phil Duffield about it and I may have made 5 some inquiries on my own also. 6 Since he was my executive officer and he 7 knew I was interested in it, he would be making 8 inquiries, too, but essentially it was -- the idea was to 9 try to trace down the source of that information 10 appearing in the media, which I knew to be incorrect. 11 Q: And the information in the media was 12 a report that someone said this was no longer a police 13 issue? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: If we could mark that extract the 16 next exhibit? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-602. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-602: Document No. 1002419 scribe 20 notes, September 14/'95 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then at Tab 44 there's a note, 24 September 14th, as well, 1995, 9:28 again put out by Mr. 25 Duffield; it's Inquiry Document 201051. Do -- do you


1 recall seeing this document, sir? 2 A: Yes, because there's reference here 3 to a burial site. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: I recall that. 6 Q: And as I understand it, on the 13th 7 of September Mr. Irwin, the Minister of Indian Affairs 8 and Northern Development, attended in the area and 9 indicated that they had documents that there was a burial 10 site on the Park; is that your understanding? 11 A: From my recollection, that's my 12 understanding. 13 Q: And the -- at the time, were you 14 provided with a copy of the 1937 document; do you recall? 15 A: I don't recall, but I don't think I 16 was. 17 Q: Then I'd ask that be marked the next 18 exhibit, Commissioner? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-603. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-603: Document 2001051 MSGCS issue 22 note (version 3)- First 23 Nations occupation - 24 Ipperwash Provincial Park 25 September 14/'95


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Did anyone from the -- Mr. Irwin's 4 office contact you about the issue of the burial site? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Then is that the type of information 7 you, as Commissioner of the OPP, would have liked to have 8 ha, prior to September the 4th? 9 A: I suppose it would have been nice to 10 have had it, but it wouldn't have changed the approach 11 that I had intended for that area. The approach would 12 have been the same, it's just one (1) more -- one (1) 13 more reason to go carefully when the claim is being made 14 by First Nations. 15 Q: And so that -- if I can -- if I 16 understand you correctly, it would have supported the 17 need for an injunction? 18 A: Absolutely. 19 Q: Now we've seen a number of references 20 in your diary which we marked Exhibit P -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five eighty- 22 six (586). Five eighty-six (586). 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: -- 586 to the Senior Management


1 Committee meetings at the Ministry of the Solicitor 2 General? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the -- prior to September the 5 4th, 1995, during the summer of 1995, do you recall if 6 Ipperwash was a -- a topic at the Senior Management 7 Committee meetings at the -- the Ministry of the 8 Solicitor General? 9 A: Not as a general rule. If -- if it 10 were, it would be -- merely be -- there may be some 11 unrest in the Ipperwash area that the police will have to 12 deal with and the police are monitoring the situation. 13 Q: But you don't specifically recall? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And the senior manage -- you told us 16 a little bit be -- earlier about the senior management 17 committee at the ministry of the Solicitor General. 18 After the -- the new government took over 19 in the end of June, the -- can you tell us who normally 20 attended the senior management committee meetings? 21 A: Usually it was chaired by the deputy 22 Solicitor General, and the various division heads of the 23 ministry attended, and from time to time, some of their 24 support staff. 25 The minister rarely made an appearance.


1 If he did it was for a short period of time only. 2 Q: And on September 11th, 1995 there was 3 a senior management committee meeting held between 9:00 4 and 12:00. The ministry of the Solicitor General and 5 Correctional Services and in the blue binder that blue 6 folder, excuse me, you should find two (2) sets of 7 minutes, one dated September 11th and the other dated 8 September 18th? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you find -- do you see those? 11 A: Yes, I have them. 12 Q: And did you normally get copies of 13 the minutes? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And on page 2 of this document 16 there's a list of attendees, one of which was you. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you tell us who the other 19 individuals were? I know it's ten (10) years ago but do 20 you have any recollection? 21 We have Ms. Todres who was the deputy 22 Attorney General. 23 A: Well Michael Jordan -- at this point 24 in time I'm beginning to forget their -- their divisions, 25 but I know that they were division heads.


1 Michael Jordan was a division head. I 2 think it was to do with finances. The other one is Fred 3 Peters who was the assistant deputy minister of policing 4 services division. 5 Dan McIntyre, head of division with regard 6 to administrative matters and strategic planning, I 7 believe. Jim Young was the chief coroner and he also was 8 the assistant deputy minister of public safety and Neil 9 McKerrell was the assistant deputy minister in charge of 10 corrections. 11 Diane Dougall, we've heard her name 12 before. 13 Q: She was a lawyer in -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- legal services branch? 16 A: Yes. And the last three (3) were -- 17 they were public servants and they were support people of 18 -- of certain areas that obviously were of interest there 19 at that particular meeting. 20 But I can't remember now exactly what they 21 did, but I was certainly familiar with the names. 22 Q: And there's a note, Ipperwash update 23 and under discussion: 24 "An Interministerial Committee 25 comprised of representatives from our


1 ministry, the Ministry of Natural 2 Resources, the Ministry of the Attorney 3 General and the Ministry of Native 4 Affairs has been established to deal 5 with the situation at Ipperwash." 6 Then action items, excuse me: 7 "Committee meeting daily at 7:00 a.m." 8 And do you recall that discussion, Mr. 9 O'Grady? 10 A: What I do recall -- obviously I was 11 there, so it's somewhat familiar to me. My understanding 12 was that, essentially, it -- it was -- had the same 13 function as the Interministerial Committee that had been 14 operating. It probably has some new resources input. 15 Q: And do you recall anything else being 16 discussed about Ipperwash at this meeting? 17 A: I don't. 18 Q: I'd ask that that be marked the next 19 exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-604 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-604: Minutes of September 11/'95 23 MSGCS meeting 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I


1 might, the -- we sought any senior management committee 2 meetings that related to Ipperwash and these are the only 3 two (2), we are advised, that dealt with Ipperwash; the 4 September 11th and September 18th. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And the next document is the minutes 8 of September 18th, 1995 and again, I note that you're 9 shown as present, along with a number of other people 10 including the ones that you described and certain other 11 individuals, but at page 2 there's a reference to 12 Ipperwash and the reference is: 13 "Ipperwash E. Todres commended the 14 Steering Committee, MNR, ONAS, MAG, 15 MSGCS for their work in managing the 16 shift from tactical approach to a more 17 political one. Thanked Ron Fox, Barb 18 Taylor and Kirk Smith and the 19 Communications Branch for their 20 continuing work in managing the 21 situation on the MSGCS side. The 22 Minister has met with local 23 stakeholders. More support is being 24 provided to the community." 25 Firstly, have I read that correctly?


1 A: I think so. 2 Q: And can you tell us what your 3 understanding was of the comment, "a shift from a 4 tactical approach to a more political one," refers to? 5 A: Well I'm -- I'm speculating here to a 6 degree, so I'll just do my best. 7 First of all, because of the tragedy, the 8 Minister could expect that -- 9 Q: Well if you don't know, we have a -- 10 an objection and I think the objection is, if you don't 11 know, then just tell us. 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: Thank you. And were you aware by 14 this time, the -- I believe and the date escapes me, that 15 the Minister of -- the Minister of the Solicitor General 16 had attended in this area, I believe, on September 12th? 17 Were you aware -- 18 A: Some time afterwards I was aware of 19 that. I wasn't aware of it when he was there. 20 Q: And, perhaps, we could mark this as 21 the next exhibit, the minutes. It would be Exhibit P- 22 605? 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-605: Minutes of September 18/'95 25 MSGCS meeting


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 3 right, six-o-five (605)? 4 THE REGISTRAR: I don't have those 5 minutes in my -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's two 7 (2) sets of minutes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: They should be in your 9 blue book, but I guess -- in that blue folder, but we've 10 got two (2) right there. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: September 13 11th we've marked 604 and September the 18th we're 14 marking 605; is that consistent with your numbers? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Now there's a reference in your 20 notes, your daytimer, Exhibit P-586, which is at Tab 103, 21 Mr. O'Grady? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And at September 19th.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: There's a reference, "Briefing." Can 3 you tell us what the reference is in the middle of the 4 page with respect to Ipperwash, sir? 5 A: It states: 6 Briefing, Ipperwash, by Chief 7 Superintendent Coles." 8 So he had attended my office to brief me. 9 Q: And can you -- do you recall who else 10 was present? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 Q: And in Exhibit P-565, Inquiry 13 Document 2005116, Chief Superintendent Coles has noted: 14 "Meeting with Boose, Nagel (phonetic) 15 and Commissioner re. Ipperwash. Option 16 paper to be developed." 17 Does that assist in refreshing your 18 memory? 19 A: I don't recall them being there. But 20 those were my two (2) deputy commissioners so they very 21 well may have been. 22 Q: And do you recall anything about the 23 -- the discussion with Chief Superintendent Coles? 24 A: Other than he briefed us on what had 25 occurred at Ipperwash to-date and what his continued


1 approach was going to be, I can't recall anything other 2 than that. 3 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 102 of 4 the black book. There's a document which has been marked 5 Exhibit P-482 and it's Inquiry Document 2000588. And if 6 I take you to page -- well firstly, the first twelve (12) 7 pages of the document -- eleven (11) pages actually, is a 8 document that is entitled, An Executive Summary. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And this was prepared by Chris Coles 11 and do you recall seeing the Executive Summary in or 12 about -- in September at some point. I think the 13 evidence of Chief Superintendent Coles that it was the 14 latter part of September it was prepared. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you recall seeing it? 17 A: It -- it looks familiar to me and 18 probably did see it then. 19 Q: And this document which has a number 20 of different letters and from a variety of different 21 people that, some of which we'll refer to, including 22 letters to you from Mr. Parkin, letters with respect to 23 Mr. Connolly. Did you instruct -- give instructions for 24 this document to be prepared, do you recall, 25 Commissioner?


1 A: I believe that I did. 2 Q: And do you recall why you asked this 3 particular document to be prepared? 4 A: In respect to Mr. Connolly or in 5 respect to Chief Superintendent Coles? 6 Q: Yes, with respect, period. How this 7 document came... 8 MR. MARK SANDLER: Just to be of some 9 assistance, I think there are different documents in here 10 and -- and Mr. O'Grady might be confused because there's 11 a Connolly document in here and there's another document 12 that My Friend may be relating to that deals with Mr. 13 Marshall. 14 So, I'm a little concerned about asking 15 him about globally. There's some different things in 16 there. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Okay. We -- this document has an 20 Inquiry Document 2000588 and it was produced to us by the 21 Ontario Provincial Police as one document. 22 And I'm just trying to figure out -- I 23 know it's a compilation of -- of -- there are many 24 different documents in here. I don't know if it was -- 25 and perhaps if Mr. O'Grady can't answer this, was it


1 created as a report of some sort, this document? 2 Or is it simply a compilation of various 3 letters that someone gathered together and put in the 4 same inquiry document? I think, it was the same document 5 when it was produced to us or produced -- frankly this 6 document was initially produced in the civil proceedings. 7 Do you have -- do you know? 8 A: At this point in time I don't know. 9 Q: Okay. So, if I could take you to 10 page 1 -- your numbers -- they should be numbered, 11 hopefully, your copy, page 102 and 103. And there's a 12 document entitled, Executive Summary: Shooting Death of 13 Anthony O'Brian George. 14 And the first document is a letter dated 15 September 22nd, 1995, to Chief Superintendent Coles from 16 Detective Inspector R.J. Goodall, and it contains what we 17 believe -- it's pages 102 to 118 -- excuse me. 18 A: I'm having a problem finding those 19 page numbers in my book. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I'm -- I'm looking under Tab 102. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I apologize, Mr. O'Grady, I had the


1 numbered -- pages numbered after I gave you that document 2 because they were hard to find. And the document -- the 3 pages that I'm actually referring to are pages -- at the 4 bottom, for the benefit of My Friends -- pages 10989, box 5 6, to page 11007. 6 And this letter from Inspector Goodall to 7 Chief Superintendent Coles indicates, in the first 8 paragraph: 9 "On September 20, 1995, you requested 10 me to prepare the above for the purpose 11 of briefing Commissioner O'Grady. I 12 have supplied this information to you, 13 however there are several issues I wish 14 to qualify." 15 And he sets out some issues. And did you 16 receive this document, the Executive Summary, from Mr. 17 Goodall or was it simply provided to Chief Superintendent 18 Coles? 19 A: From -- from looking at the first 20 page, dated September 22nd, it appears to me like it was 21 to be used by Coles to brief me. 22 Q: And I note that on September 27, if 23 you look at Exhibit P-586, your notes -- your daytimer 24 for September 27th, there is a -- two (2) entries: 25 "Meeting first Ipperwash Occupation"


1 I think that's what it says? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then, secondly: 4 "Meeting secondly with Deputy 5 Ministers, SG" 6 I take it that's Solicitor General? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "AG" Attorney General? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "MNR" Ministry of Natural Resources? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And the meeting of -- the first 13 meeting that -- that day, on September 27th, was with -- 14 do you recall with whom? 15 A: No, I don't. I -- I'm assuming it 16 was with Chief Superintendent Coles but I really don't 17 know. 18 Q: If it -- if it assists in refreshing 19 your memory, Chief Superintendent Coles testified that he 20 met with you first, and had his Executive Summary, the 21 first eleven (11) pages of Exhibit 482. 22 And then you and he attended with the 23 Deputy Ministers on the second meeting, and there was a 24 briefing of the Deputy Ministers. 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Do you recall the meeting with the 2 Deputy Ministers? 3 A: Yes, I do. And I recall that Chief 4 Superintendent Coles was with me. 5 Q: And do you recall what else happened 6 at that meeting? 7 A: He basically outlined the activities 8 that he was familiar with at Ipperwash for the benefit of 9 the -- the Deputy Ministers in attendance and I -- I'm 10 not sure what the end result of the meeting was. 11 Without -- without some paper to help me, 12 I'm not sure, but certainly that was the intent of the -- 13 of the meeting was to bring them up to speed with respect 14 to what else might be done to alleviate the situation at 15 Ipperwash. 16 Q: And when you say, "to alleviate the 17 situation at Ipperwash," what are you referring to there, 18 sir? 19 A: Well there were ongoing negotiations. 20 There were a number of things going on. There were 21 ongoing negotiations involving various people to try to 22 reduce the tension and at the same time, of course, there 23 was a crime scene investigation being done both by the 24 OPP and by the Special Investigations Unit. 25 Q: And the -- do you recall if Deputy


1 Commissioner Boose attended the meeting? 2 A: My recollection is that he did not. 3 Q: Chief Coles, in his note, thought 4 that Deputy Commissioner Boose had attended at least the 5 meeting with you and Chief Coles? 6 A: I thought there were just the two (2) 7 of us there, that's my recollection. 8 Q: That might be an appropriate time for 9 the afternoon break? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 11 we'll take a break now. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 3:39 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 3:58 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed, please be seated. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 21 might talk about one (1) little manner. The gremlins 22 have touched our exhibit list, we have -- Exhibit P-597 23 is being left blank as a result of the -- it's just an 24 error in numbering, so there is no Exhibit P-597. Rather 25 than try to re-number all of the numbers, we -- we'll


1 just leave P-597 as a blank number. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 So the numbers after 597 are accurate? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The numbers after 597 5 are accurate, yes. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Now I'll take you to Tab 50. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 14 Falconer...? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: This is unrelated 16 to Mr. Millar's question, so I apologize for 17 interrupting. On the other hand, it'll get -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There is a 19 lull -- there is a lull so. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. There 21 is an issue about the discipline questions that Counsel 22 have been trying to work out and it occurs to me, based 23 on some of the schedules I've heard today, that if we 24 leave it until the end of the day, after 4:30, we won't 25 be able to -- to gather the people to have the discussion


1 that's necessary. 2 And I'm simply raising that for your 3 consideration, Mr. Commissioner, and for Mr. Millar's 4 consideration. We may need ten (10) minutes of Counsel 5 in the same place, prior to 4:30. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Prior to 7 4:30? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We go until five 9 o'clock. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Oh, I'm sorry, 11 prior to 5:00. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Prior to 13 5:00? 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Prior to 5:00, yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if we 16 adjourn for the day at quarter to five -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- would 19 that allow you to do it? 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you very 21 much. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now at Tab 51 -- Tab 50, 51, 52 are a


1 number of issue notes with respect to the -- what was 2 happening and one of those issue notes, the number of 3 them say that if we just -- if we just go to November 4 1st, the issue note, do you recall -- this is an issue 5 note issued by Phil Duffield, although it's -- doesn't 6 have a signature on it. 7 Do you recall seeing this issue note? 8 A: I don't recall seeing it, but I'm 9 sure I did. 10 Q: And the reference to OPP continues to 11 patrol the Park. The Park -- was that correct where in 12 the -- in November -- October, November were the OPP 13 patrolling the Park? It was my understanding that -- as 14 noted that Army Camp Road is being patrolled by First 15 Nations constables with OPP backup? 16 A: I believe that's the case but I'm not 17 really aware. 18 Q: And that the -- with respect to the 19 Park there's a reference: 20 "OPP has a contingency plan in place in 21 the event of further action by First 22 Nations." 23 And what did that plan refer to? 24 A: I'm not sure. 25 Q: Okay. And were you familiar with


1 Project Blue Water? 2 A: No, I was not. 3 Q: And could I take you to Exhibit -- I 4 understand Project Blue Water dealt with Pinery Park. 5 Did you have any direct involvement with Pinery Park? 6 A: I did not. 7 Q: Okay. And could I take you to P-586 8 to October 2nd? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 And there's a reference to Ipperwash -- it 13 says -- can you read the second last entry before off 14 duty on October 2nd? 15 A: Yes. It says: 16 "Swear in special constables for Parks 17 Canada. Visit Forest Detachment. 18 Speak to staff involved with Ipperwash 19 incident. 20 Return to Orillia." 21 Q: And do you have any recollection what 22 you were -- what that refers to? What your speaking to 23 the staff about? 24 A: To the best of my recollection it 25 would merely -- be merely to advise them that I was aware


1 that that had been a difficult issue. And essentially 2 that would be -- that would be all. 3 Q: Okay. And then on -- at Tab 53 -- 4 and this isn't your e-mail. It's Inquiry Document 5 1001875 and it's an e-mail from Graham Reynolds to Jim 6 Harding who I believe is at -- in the SIU. And there's a 7 reference in the first line -- first two (2) lines: 8 "I spoke this morning with Tom O'Grady 9 and during our conversation I asked him 10 whether he can verify whether there is 11 in existence any video record of any of 12 the events at Ipperwash. 13 He replied that he believes there were 14 no such tape or tapes but would ask the 15 question directly himself and have a 16 response to us very shortly. 17 I also asked him about obtaining aerial 18 photographs of the scene for 19 investigative purposes and he readily 20 agreed to use -- use of the OPP 21 helicopter for these purposes. 22 His only concern was that, as there 23 were still Native persons occupying the 24 Park, it would be essential to either 25 wait until they had left with the cold


1 weather now here or that they be 2 properly notified about the intent and 3 purpose of the overflight. I agreed 4 and said I'd prefer to give notice. He 5 said his liaison officer could be 6 contacted about this. I think the 7 foregoing will assist our investigation 8 into the events." 9 Do you recall having a conversation with 10 Mr. Reynolds on or about November 8th, sir? 11 A: I recall having a conversation with 12 somebody from SIU and I recall referring this to -- for 13 further action to the -- the liaison officer and I 14 believe also to an individual by the name of Frechette, 15 Chief Superintendent Frechette at that time, who was in 16 charge of the Criminal Investigation Bureau, where the -- 17 where our liaison officer was housed. 18 Q: And if I could take you to Exhibit P- 19 5 -- your minutes again, it's your diary, sir. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It's P-582. 22 THE REGISTRAR: 86. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 86, excuse me. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 586. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: 586. And the entry on November the 3 9th. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this note says -- can you read 6 that note? 7 A: Yes, I can. It's: 8 "9:40, G. Reynolds, SIU, aerial photo 9 video, Ipperwash to Frechette." 10 Q: And do you know what that's referring 11 to, sir? 12 A: I believe that refers to Mr. 13 Reynolds' request and refers to my relaying the 14 information to Frechette for answer. 15 Q: And did you -- did you -- does this 16 note indicate that you referred it to Mr. Frechette on 17 November the 9th then? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: Okay. And at Tab 55 there's a 20 memorandum dated November 28th, 1995 and it's from you to 21 Ms. Todres; it's Tab 55, sir. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yes. And -- and does this -- does 24 your signature appear at the bottom? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And this was a summary of the costs 2 to date of -- with respect to Ipperwash? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And that -- do you know -- can you 5 tell us what period of time this summary relates to, sir? 6 A: I think those are the costs to date, 7 so that would be until November '95 or November -- no, 8 wait a minute, costs as of November the 11th, 1995. So 9 it would be the costs since it began until then. 10 Q: And when it began -- we know that in 11 August of 1995 undercover campers were put into -- 12 officers were put into the Ipperwash Provincial Park; 13 would it -- do you know if it included the costs 14 associated with that or simply from September the 4th, 15 1995, or do you know? 16 A: I know it would be a compilation of 17 all of the costs from the time that -- that Ipperwash 18 became a critical issue for us, until November the 11th. 19 So I -- it's -- it's a gross figure. What all is in that 20 I'm not sure, but it -- it sort of indicates: 21 "Overtime, shift premium, meals, 22 accommodation, equipment, 23 telecommunications." 24 And those are added up to reach the final 25 figure.


1 Q: So we can mark that as the next 2 exhibit. It's Inquiry Document 1001032. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-606, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-606: Document No. 1001032 6 memorandum from Thomas 7 O'Grady to Elaine Todres re: 8 policing costs-Ipperwash 9 November 28/'95 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And at Tab 57 there's an issue note 13 dated December 6th. And do you recall seeing this issue 14 note, sir? 15 A: It's produced by my executive 16 officer. I, in all likelihood, would have seen it. 17 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 18 exhibit? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-607, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-607: Document No. 1011657 MSGCS 22 issue note (version 10) First 23 Nations occupation Ipperwash 24 Provincial Park December 25 06/'95


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And, you're aware, are you, that in 4 December of 1995, the Park was winterized? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, that was through the cooperation 7 of the occupiers, the OPP, the MNR, and Anishnaabeg 8 Police? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And, at page -- at Tab 59, there's a 11 chronology of events and it's Inquiry Document 2004799. 12 And it's prepared for the information of Commissioner T. 13 B. O'Grady by Inspector G. Marshall. And there's a note 14 at the bottom, "[something] February 3rd/96". 15 Do you see that, sir, on the front page? 16 A: Right down at the bottom I see a note 17 which looks like, "done" and there's, " J. W. In the 3rd 18 of February/'96." 19 Q: And, did you ask Inspector Marshall 20 to prepare a chronology of events? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And, why did you do that, sir? 23 A: Well, there were a number of reports 24 on this issue and I was trying to pull it all together. 25 In addition, I think there were some particular things I


1 wanted, which I don't see in this, but I recall that I 2 wanted to know on a regular basis how many people we had 3 at Ipperwash from the beginning and sort of what the 4 trends -- going from that point until it was back to 5 normal operations and what was happening. 6 Q: And -- pardon me? 7 A: And what was happening there. 8 Q: And the chronology of events is a -- 9 approximately sixteen (16) pages long? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, if I could take you to Exhibit 12 P-482; it's at Tab 102. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: 102? 17 Q: I'm advised by Mr. Sandler that these 18 pages, starting at page 10899 or page 12 down to page 19 10928, was also a document prepared by Inspector 20 Marshall. Are you -- 21 A: I don't think I have those numbers 22 that you're referring to. 23 Q: They're at the very bottom sir, of -- 24 it starts at -- at the very bottom of the page. It's 25 after the Executive -- it's the pages following the


1 Executive Summary. I -- I apologize for the -- if you 2 take the Executive Summary, it's the first eleven (11) 3 pages down to Chris Coles signature. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then it's the pages following, 6 down to the first green divider. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you recognize that document, sir? 9 And I appreciate it's a long time ago. 10 A: Yes. I'm -- I think I do because I'm 11 seeing the -- a running track of the numbers of -- of 12 officers at any given -- particular day. 13 Q: And was this -- these pages which, if 14 you look at the very bottom of the page, there's the 15 number one zero eight nine nine (10899) to one zero nine 16 two eight (10928) at the green -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize, it 18 must be the hour of the day but I'm lost. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So are you-- 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at the bottom, 24 Mr. Falconer. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: My pages are


1 numbered at the top, so what you're looking at now is 2 page 12 to 41, right? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. And his 4 unfortunately 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 6 have the same numbering system. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Numbering. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: But that -- you -- is this -- was -- 12 those pages that we've identified, the pages -- work of 13 Mr. -- of Inspector Marshall? 14 A: My belief is that this is what 15 Inspector Marshall prepared. 16 Q: And why did you want Inspector 17 Marshall to do this? 18 A: To think back to the time -- that 19 time as to why I particularly asked -- particularly asked 20 him, I'm not sure. He was at general headquarters, he 21 was adept at doing this sort of thing and he was 22 available. So, I believe that's why I asked him. 23 Q: And in February of 1996 and I 24 believe, if you don't have it, if we could give the 25 Witness a copy of Exhibit P-457. It's a document


1 entitled, Ipperwash Review. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I have it. 6 Q: You have it? 7 A: I think I have it. It's, Ipperwash 8 Review, February 21st, 1996. 9 Q: Yes, sir. And this is a -- where the 10 evidence is -- is a review conducted by Chief 11 Superintendent Coles. 12 Did you review this document at or about 13 in February of 1996 or when it was produced? 14 A: I don't recall that I did. 15 Q: Okay. Did you -- were you aware that 16 Chief Superintendent Coles was conducting this type of a 17 review? 18 A: Yes, I was. 19 Q: And did he report as to the results 20 of the review? 21 A: My understanding was that there were 22 a number -- there were a number of issues that they 23 identified in the review -- he identified in the review, 24 that needed to be action for -- for improvement and that, 25 in fact, those things were done.


1 And I have quickly read through this just 2 recently and I do notice that in many instances there 3 seems to be a conclusion reached that something should be 4 taken care of and that they basically indicate that it's 5 going to a certain area for action or that this something 6 that's already been done. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Perhaps, Commissioner, I don't know 11 if I marked -- Mr. Faulkner said it's getting late in the 12 day -- Tab 59, the chronology of events prepared by Mr. - 13 - Inspector Marshall. That should be the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-608, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 59 is P-608. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-608: Document No. 2004799 18 chronology of events - 19 Ipperwash Provincial Park 20 occupation prepared for 21 Commissioner O'Grady by 22 Inspector G. Marshall 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it's Inquiry 25 Document 2004799.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: Now, if I could take you to Tab 64, 5 the letter to you from Barry Jones of -- Director, Legal 6 Services, it's dated April 1, 1996. It's Inquiry 7 Document 2002435. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it indicates -- the letter says: 10 "You have requested verification of 11 Crown title to lands within the Pinery 12 and Ipperwash Provincial Parks. 13 [Excuse me.] We have examined the 14 title documents and are satisfied that 15 the Crown in right of Ontario is the 16 legal owner of the lands in question. 17 Yours sincerely, Barry Jones. 18 Director, Legal Services Branch, 19 Ministry of Natural Resources." 20 And a copy is shown as being sent to 21 Inspector Chris Coles and Les Kobayashi; did you receive 22 this letter, sir? 23 A: Quite frankly, I don't recall this 24 letter at all. 25 Q: And it's marked: "Received April 4,


1 1996." Do you recognize that stamp; it's among the OPP 2 productions? 3 A: Normally, the stamp in -- that's used 4 -- was used in my office indicated that it had been 5 received at the Commissioner's office. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I -- I just don't -- I don't remember 8 this letter at all. 9 Q: Okay. Did you -- do you remember 10 making a request of Ministry of Natural Resources to 11 search the title with respect to the Pinery and the 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 13 A: No, I do not. I just feel it's 14 strange that if this reply is there and it's in OPP 15 files, that my request wouldn't be there also -- written 16 request. 17 Q: It looks like -- actually, Mr. 18 Sandler points out this may be the MNR copy because 19 there's a checkmark beside Mr. Kobayashi's name, even 20 though it appears in the OPP set of documents but, at any 21 rate, you don't recall -- 22 A: I do not. 23 Q: -- receiving this? Now, at Tab 67 24 there's a e-mail from George Marcil (phonetic) to John 25 Carson and, if referring to a chronology, perhaps the


1 chronology that we just marked as Exhibit P-608, but the 2 indication is: 3 "The chronology I prepared attached was 4 a compilation of two (2) others I got a 5 hold of, Chief Superintendent Coles' 6 versions, one (1) by Don Bell, as well 7 as going through some of the media 8 clippings. I was hoping this version 9 would suit the needs of the 10 Commissioner, I wouldn't have to bother 11 you further. Alas, I was wrong. The 12 Commissioner reviewed the attached 13 version and asked for more detail in 14 certain areas, specifically he would 15 like more detail including -- included 16 with respect to the events on the night 17 of September 6th. For example, he 18 asked for the following: Who is making 19 the decisions? For example: Who gave 20 the order to put out the bonfires? Et 21 cetera." 22 Do you recall instructing Mr. -- Inspector 23 Marshall in -- in or about May 28th, 1996 to do further 24 work with respect to the chronology? 25 A: Yes, I do. I wanted further detail.


1 And, as I've mentioned before, one of the things that was 2 missing from the first one was a running tab of how many 3 officers we had there. Also, I wanted something on 4 record as to who made particular decisions, if it wasn't 5 all made by one (1) individual. 6 So I just wanted something in a little 7 more detail. And eventu -- I think what we have done 8 here is, one (1) of the reports that we looked at where 9 it stopped and then there was another portion of it that 10 you took me to, which had -- what reminded me that must 11 be the rest of it was, that it had a little box on 12 various pages showing the number of officers in 13 attendance, so I think the two (2) together was the -- 14 was the report. 15 Q: And I note the second last paragraph: 16 "The Commissioner also felt that more 17 recognition should go into the 18 chronology about the role of several 19 First Nation groups in helping to 20 resolve the dispute, specifically he 21 mentioned the role the Anishnaabeg 22 Police Service played. He enlightened 23 me on the role they played or any other 24 significant contribution by First 25 Nations."


1 A: Yes, I recall that and as we 2 mentioned a little while ago, the Anishnaabeg Police 3 Service was asked to patrol the roads in the area of -- 4 of the Park and provided excellent service and I -- I 5 wanted that reflected in the report. 6 Q: And the report -- the pages that we 7 looked at in Exhibit P-482, Inquiry Document 2000588 8 starting at -- after Chris Coles' report -- executive 9 summary going down to the first green tab is the later 10 report prepared by Inspector Marshall? 11 A: It's either -- it could be -- it 12 could be the later one, or it could be that the two (2) 13 together was the final report. 14 Q: Then at -- in the same document at 15 Exhibit 102, if I could take you to the first page after 16 the first green divider and at the bottom of the page, 17 it's page 10829. Commissioner, for you it's page 42. 18 A: The first page after the -- I think 19 it's the first green sheet -- 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: -- is dated the 4th of July/'96. 22 Q: Yes. And it's a letter from 23 Superintendent Parkin to you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you get that, sir?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And perhaps we could -- and attached 3 to it is a copy of Project Maple? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And is that the first time you 6 received a copy of Project Maple? 7 A: I believe it is. 8 Q: And perhaps we could mark that letter 9 as a separate exhibit, it would be P -- 10 THE REGISTRAR: 609. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And with the Project 12 Maple attached to it? 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-609: Document No. 2000588 letter 15 from A.G. Parkin to 16 Commissioner O'Grady July 17 04/'96 enclosing Project 18 Maple (P-42-97) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Now, at some point in 1997, you 22 asked Inspector Connolly to do some work? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And why did you ask Inspector 25 Connolly to do some work?


1 A: It was my view that at some point in 2 time an Inquiry such as this would be ordered and having 3 proved the fragility of my memory over ten (10) years, I 4 felt that documentation would be important. and the OPP 5 is a large, deployed organization and I felt that there 6 would be value in gathering all the documentation that 7 related to our activities at Ipperwash into one (1) 8 location and cataloguing it. 9 I felt this would be very valuable in the 10 event that an Inquiry was called and I -- my hope was 11 that it would prevent documents and items from going 12 missing and thereby bring criticism that various crucial 13 documents that might have explained something were 14 missing. So, the intent was to get it all in one (1) 15 location and -- and hold it. 16 Q: Okay. And that was started in 1997? 17 A: I believe that's correct. There 18 probably is a letter somewhere. 19 Q: There is and we'll... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: ...just take a moment. Before I go 24 to that, actually, I'll come back to that. I wanted to 25 take you to Tab 75 for a moment.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes? 4 Q: And, if I could, Commissioner 5 O'Grady, I'm providing you with a copy of Inquiry 6 Document 1005922 which is a news release from the SIU, 7 together with a report with respect to -- dated July 11, 8 1996 and the news release is dated July 23rd, 1996 with 9 respect to Acting Sergeant Kenneth Deane? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And are you familiar with the news 12 release and the attached report? 13 A: I know I would have received it and 14 read it. 15 Q: And you can just take a minute. I've 16 just given this to you to just flip through it and see 17 it's signed by James M. Stewart, the Acting Director. 18 The report is dated July 11, 1996? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you're familiar with the news 24 release and the -- the report? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 2 exhibit, the news release dated July 23rd, 1996 and the 3 report dated July 11, 1996? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-610. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-610: Document No. 1005922 SIU News 7 release communique July 8 23/'96 re: SIU decision - 9 Ipperwash investigation 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And at Tab 74 there's a news release 13 dated July 23rd, 1996, Inquiry Document 1001161 dated 14 July 23rd, 1996 announcing that you would be making a 15 statement the next day? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And the -- this news release is 18 issued on the same day as Exhibit P-610, the SIU news 19 release? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And I take it that you -- the news 22 release that you would make a statement was released 23 after the SIU released its news release? 24 A: Yes. When the SIU had concluded 25 their -- their investigation and made the news release


1 indicating that Deane was charged, I felt I could say 2 something at that point. 3 Q: And perhaps we could mark the July 4 23rd, 1996 as the next exhibit, it would be 6 -- P-611? 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-611: Document 1003937 Toronto 7 Globe and Mail article July 8 25/'96 OPP Chief breaks 10 9 month Ipperwash silence. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And on July 24th, 1996 you delivered 13 the -- did you deliver the remarks that are noted at Tab 14 75, sir? 15 A: I did. 16 Q: It's Inquiry Document 1001163 and are 17 -- are these -- this is your prepared statement? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you recall today whether it's 20 an accurate statement -- accurate representation of what 21 you said on July 24th, 1996? 22 A: I believe it to be an accurate 23 representation of what I said. 24 Q: If we could mark that as Exhibit P- 25 612.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-612: Document No. 1001163 OPP 2 remarks of Thomas O'Grady re: 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park 4 July 24/'96 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And why did you determine to make the 8 statement on July 24th, 1996? 9 A: I thought it was necessary since the 10 SIU had begun their investigation and following the short 11 release that the OPP did the first day of their 12 investigation. From then on we had said absolutely 13 nothing. 14 And we were asked many times over and over 15 and over again by media, people that wished us to respond 16 or to speak on the issue. And our own officers were -- 17 were concerned that nobody was speaking on behalf of the 18 OPP. And so it seemed once the charge had been laid, 19 that that was an opportunity for me to say something. 20 Q: And the -- and you made the statement 21 as reported at Exhibit P-612? 22 A: I did. 23 Q: Now go back to Inspector Connolly for 24 the moment. Actually, Commissioner, this might be an 25 appropriate time for the break. I know it's five (5)


1 minutes early but-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- if the meeting -- 4 that the discussion Mr. Falconer suggested. Just for the 5 benefit of My Friends, I'm -- I would have no more -- I 6 would hopefully be done in the first hour to an hour and 7 a half tomorrow morning. 8 Thank you very much, Mr. O'Grady. 9 10 (WITNESS RETIRES) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 Thank you, Mr. O'Grady. 14 We're going to adjourn until nine o'clock 15 tomorrow morning? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 19 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, August 23rd at 09:00. 20 21 --- Upon adjourning at 4:38 p.m. 22 23 24 25


1 2 Certified Correct 3 4 5 6 7 ________________________ 8 Dustin Warnock 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25