1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 August 15th, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 8 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George 9 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 10 Basil Alexander ) 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 16 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 Kevin Scullion ) 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) (np) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 14 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 15 Trevor Hinnegan ) 16 17 Mark Sandler ) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) (np) 19 Erin Tully ) (np) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 4 5 Ruling 8 6 7 CHRISTOPHER JAMES ASH COLES, Sworn 8 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 13 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 205 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-554 Curriculum Vitae of Christopher 4 Coles, OstJ, BA. 35 5 P-555 Document number 2002951 OPP number 1 6 District Operational Plan, occupation 7 of CFB Ipperwash, Revised June 02/93. 77 8 P-556 Document Number 2005396 Daily journal 9 of Chief Superintendent Christopher 10 Coles May 20 & 21 and July 15/'93. 84 11 P-557 Document Number 2002952, Callout 12 procedure of OPP re "First Nation's 13 Occupation of Camp Ipperwash" 14 July 08/'93. 86 15 P-558 Document Number 2001064 MSGCS Issue 16 Note June 02/'04, Issue: Policing 17 Bosanquet Township from field operations 18 - staff contact Phil Duffield, OPP. 121 19 P-559 Document Number 2001361, Fax From Det. 20 Cont. G.M. Speck, Att. Chief Supt. 21 C.J. Coles, June 13/'95 re: C.F.B. 22 Ipperwash. 125 23 24 25


1 EXHIBIT LIST (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-560 Document number 2000988 MSGCS 4 Issue Note July 10/95, Issue: 5 Native occupation, Camp Ipperwash; 6 staff contact Phil Duffield OPP. 141 7 P-561 Document number 2000987 MSGCS Issue 8 Note July 12/95 (update of Briefing 9 Note July 10/95), Issue: acquisition 10 of Camp Ipperwash by Kettle/Stony 11 Band: staff contact: Inspector Dale 12 Linton OPP. 143 13 P-562 Document number 2000985 MSGCS Issue 14 Note July 31/95, Issue: Native 15 occupation, Camp Ipperwash; to Supt. 16 T. Parkin from Nancy Mansell. 153 17 P-563 Document number 2000984 MSGCS Issue 18 Note Aug. 02/95, Issue: Native 19 occupation, Camp Ipperwash, staff 20 contact: Phil Duffield, OPP & emails 21 from Anthony Parkin to Nancy Mansell. 158 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 10:35 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. Perhaps after you're finished with your 8 introductory remarks I just have a couple of housekeeping 9 matters I would like to just draw to everyone's 10 attention. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 I want to say good morning to everyone, I hope you 13 enjoyed the hiatus. I don't want to call it a vacation 14 because I know that many of you were working very hard 15 during the hiatus. I managed to get a little bit of 16 vacation. I managed to get my tooth fixed that was 17 bothering me before we broke. But it's nice to see 18 everybody again and get started. 19 Before we begin, I would like to advise 20 that I have made my ruling regarding the OPP files, the 21 discipline files, and the ruling is being posted on our 22 website this morning; copies have been distributed to 23 those in attendance here today. However, recognizing 24 that there are some people who may not have access to the 25 internet and that there may be some interest in the


1 ruling, I intend to read just a couple of paragraphs from 2 the ruling. 3 In my view, the documents should be 4 produced to Commission Counsel. Accordingly, my ruling 5 is as follows: 6 "Documents over which privilege are 7 claimed should be produced to 8 Commission Counsel in accordance with 9 Rule 32, which delineates the procedure 10 upheld in Lyons versus the Toronto 11 Computer Leasing Inquiry. 12 There is no statutory privilege or bar 13 preventing the production of the 14 documents required by my summons to 15 Commissioner Boniface, dated June the 16 15th, 2005, and a third-party records' 17 analysis by a judge of the Superior 18 Court of Justice has no application 19 because the documents are held by a 20 party to this Inquiry. 21 The OPP is required to produce the 22 discipline files in respect of 23 discreditable conduct of Detective 24 Constable James Dyke and Detective 25 Constable Darryl Whitehead on September


1 5th, 1995, and discipline files 2 maintained by the OPP in respect of the 3 mugs and T-shirt distributions. 4 The documents should be produced to 5 Commission Counsel who will review the 6 documents. I will then make my 7 decision regarding the claim of common- 8 law case-by-case privilege. 9 Therefore, the motions to set aside the 10 summons are dismissed and I direct that 11 the OPP shall deliver the following 12 documents to Commission Counsel by no 13 later than 5:00 p.m. August 22nd, 2005. 14 1. The discipline files maintained by 15 the OPP in respect of the discreditable 16 conduct of Detective Constable James 17 Dyke and Detective Constable Darryl 18 Whitehead and the discipline files 19 maintained by the OPP in respect of the 20 mugs and t-shirt distributions. 21 Commission counsel shall review the 22 documents for relevance and possible 23 privilege. The review will be 24 conducted confidentially on Inquiry 25 premises. Counsel for the OPP and the


1 OPPA may attend and participate in the 2 review. 3 And relevant and non-privileged 4 material will be distributed to parties 5 withstanding in the usual manner 6 employed by this Inquiry. 7 The OPPA has requested that if after 8 hearing submissions I want to enforce 9 the summons of requiring the OPP to 10 produce the documents to Commission 11 counsel, I should first state a case in 12 writing to the divisional court in 13 accordance with Subsection 61 of the 14 Public Inquiry's Act. 15 If after consideration of this ruling 16 the OPPA still wishes me to state a 17 case, the OPPA should provide 18 confirmation of this request including 19 particulars of the case to be stated no 20 later than five o'clock on August the 21 19th, 2005." 22 Now, I think we can begin this morning, 23 Mr. Millar has some housekeeping matters before we begin 24 with our first witness. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much,


1 Commissioner. The first housekeeping matter is that I 2 sent a number of documents -- attempted to send a number 3 of documents to My Friends on Saturday, many of which -- 4 most -- many of the e-mails came back and so I just 5 wanted to let My Friends know that we're making hard 6 copies and we will distribute those hard copies today. 7 And secondly, with -- our witness Bruce 8 Elijah was unable -- we didn't complete his cross- 9 examination and we're attempting to set it up so that it 10 can be finished on Thursday of this week when at the end 11 of Mr. Coles' evidence. 12 If Mr. Coles finishes earlier than 13 Thursday then, we would do it Thursday morning and we'll 14 then have to figure out -- our next witness after Mr. 15 Elijah is going to be Tom O'Grady. But we've got Mr. 16 Elijah coming for Thursday. We hope -- we're just 17 confirming it now that we've heard that all counsel will 18 be here. 19 And our next witness will be dealt with by 20 Mr. Worme. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 Mr. Worme...? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. Good 24 morning, Mr. Commissioner. 25 Commissioner, the next witness the


1 Commission calls is Christopher Coles. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 morning, Mr. Coles. I know that it's Mr. Coles, you're 4 retired, but we'll probably all be calling you Chief 5 Superintendent for the duration of your testimony. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Coles. 7 MR. CHRISTOPHER COLES: Good morning. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Coles, do you prefer 9 to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath? 10 MR. CHRISTOPHER COLES: On the Bible, 11 please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Please 13 take the Bible in your right hand and state your name in 14 full. 15 MR. CHRISTOPHER COLES: My name is 16 Christopher James Ash Coles. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 18 19 CHRISTOPHER JAMES ASH COLES, Sworn; 20 21 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: Mr. Coles, you had retired as the 23 Chief Superintendent of the Ontario Provincial Police, 24 June 29th of 1996, as I understand? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And accordingly I will address you as 2 Mr. Coles if that's your preference? 3 A: That's fine. 4 Q: Thank you. What I want to do 5 firstly, Mr. Commissioner, at Tab Number 78 there's a 6 binder of documents before you as well as a binder in 7 front of the Witness and at Tab 78 is the curriculum 8 vitae of -- or vitae of Mr. Coles, we'll put that up on 9 the screen as well. 10 I believe that a -- a hard copy of that 11 was distributed to My Friends as well and perhaps what I 12 will do just at this moment by way of introduction of 13 this Witness is to take you Mr. Coles through your 14 curriculum vitae. 15 You joined the Ontario Provincial Police 16 as a cadet in 1965 at the tender age of 19 years? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And you served at the Tillsonburg 19 Detachment, performing general duties, until 1969? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And then criminal duties in 22 Tillsonburg and London? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: You were at that point in time, 25 appointed, or assigned to the special services branch in


1 the intelligence branch in 1973? 2 Q: I wonder if you just might take a 3 moment to describe the special services branch and in the 4 -- and more specifically, the intelligence branch that 5 you were assigned to? 6 A: The intelligence -- the intelligence 7 branch at that time came under the auspices of the 8 special services division of the Ontario Provincial 9 Police. They had commenced, about a year earlier, 10 surveillance teams, the first surveillance teams that the 11 Ontario Provincial Police officially had, and I was 12 selected as a member of the surveillance team. 13 And I was a member of the surveillance 14 team in the intelligence branch until -- from 1973 until, 15 I believe, December of '74 at which time I took a 16 secondment, or a leave or absence and went back to 17 university for a year. 18 I was sent by the Ontario Provincial 19 Police. I finished the degree at university and then 20 came back to the intelligence branch. 21 I was assigned to a large auto theft case 22 that took place for a little over a year and then I came 23 back to the intelligence branch and was involved in the 24 analytical section of the intelligence branch? 25 Q: That would have been in 1977, did you


1 say? 2 A: The analytical section, I believe, in 3 19 -- I believe in 1977, yes. 4 Q: On your assignment to the 5 intelligence branch of special services, I take it then 6 that you were what would be characterized or classified 7 as an intelligence officer? 8 A: A member of the intelligence branch, 9 yes, sir. 10 Q: And might you just tell us then about 11 your general duties as a member of that intelligence 12 branch? 13 A: Well, as a member of the surveillance 14 team was, basically as criminal investigations warranted 15 it, and investigators called for a specialized 16 surveillance team; here were teams of six (6) undercover 17 officers. We would go throughout the Province, basically 18 on major case investigations, providing surveillance. 19 When I was in charge of the analytical -- 20 or, not in charge, but as a member -- co-member of the 21 analytical section, they decided to set up an analytical 22 section in -- within the intelligence branch. 23 I was sent on a course put on by a group 24 called Anacapa Sciences, out of California, I believe, at 25 the Canadian Police College in Ottawa, at which time, I


1 think it was a week, maybe two (2), it involved the 2 intelligence function and the collation and dissemination 3 of information and the review of the large documents. 4 That was prior computers, and involved basically setting 5 up matrixes and time flows and I commenced the duties 6 there. 7 The intelligence branch of the Ontario 8 Provincial Police had a reporting relationship to the 9 criminal intelligence service of Ontario and that's where 10 other police forces intelligence also was sent. And so 11 there was a -- the need to analyse information that came 12 from the Ontario Provincial Police that might affect 13 other police services or, in fact, be part of the 14 intelligence function of Ontario and those reports would 15 have been distributed up through CISO, Criminal 16 Intelligence Service Ontario. 17 And we also were a contributor to the 18 Criminal Intelligence Service of Canada, where we would 19 also make sure that certain reports were sent. 20 Q: And the Criminal Intelligence Service 21 of Canada would be the national database to which you 22 would contribute, what kind of information? 23 A: I'll call it an -- wouldn't call it a 24 database but in those years, to be honest, the -- it was 25 not the computerization that you see today, but, yes,


1 they were the agency that was responsible for the 2 collation of files across Canada. 3 Q: And the Criminal Intelligence Service 4 of Ontario would be collation of files relative 5 specifically to Ontario? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And what about specific operational 8 types of matters, intelligence relating to specific 9 operations, would that be treated in a different fashion? 10 A: A criminal investigator, 11 investigating a large case might ask for the services of 12 the analytical offices, namely myself or another officer, 13 to basically come down and review the files of a major 14 case, basically in a capacity of not only analysing the 15 information, but to also provide information to the 16 criminal investigator that he or she may have neglected 17 or an area that was not being considered and that was 18 mainly because the -- the analytical function at that 19 time involved the use of matrixes and association graphs, 20 which at that time was fairly new to the intelligence 21 community, at that time. 22 Q: Okay. And, just so we understand, 23 you've alluded to the fact that the intelligence program 24 is somewhat more sophisticated these days given the 25 advent of computers and such. Just so that we understand


1 the program at the time that you're speaking about, the 2 matrixes that you referred to, I take it -- perhaps you 3 can just describe that? 4 A: If the information came in via a 5 report, we'll say, from a field member or from an 6 intelligence -- decentralized intelligence branch member, 7 there were decentralized offices throughout Ontario at 8 that time, those reports would come into the general 9 headquarters intelligence branch, at which time every 10 name would be carded, before computers and so those names 11 would now -- where those names appeared in other reports, 12 that's how they were filed. So, that was the attempt of 13 collation, at least names within reports. 14 Q: So, they'd be literally put onto 15 individual recipe-type cards? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And, those would be matched where? 18 A: Where -- where they would match 19 together, correct. 20 Q: All right. Now, we may come back to 21 -- to this and I -- and I will bring you back to this 22 general area of intelligence programming at -- later on 23 in this examination. 24 You've indicated that you took educational 25 leave and obtained a degree, what degree was that, sir?


1 A: It was a degree in psychology from 2 the University of Guelph. 3 Q: And, that was in 1975? 4 A: Correct, yes. 5 Q: After you appointment to the 6 analytical section, which I understand to be located in 7 Toronto? 8 A: It was at 90 Harbour Street, in 9 Toronto, at that time, yes. 10 Q: And, as I understand it now, the 11 analytical services of the intelligence program is 12 located in Orillia? 13 A: It would be. 14 Q: What was your next appointment after 15 serving at the analytical section in 1977? 16 A: I believe in 1978 I was promoted and 17 went to the anti-rackets branch of the Ontario Provincial 18 Police, which involves fraud investigations, et cetera. 19 I stayed with the anti-rackets branch until, I think, 20 1984 at which time I was commissioned as an inspector and 21 I was involved in the criminal -- I was involved in the 22 criminal investigation branch, major case -- homicides, 23 et cetera. 24 Q: And, where were you stationed at that 25 point once you received your commission?


1 A: Always at 90 Harbour Street. 2 Q: All right. In 1986 you were promoted 3 to superintendent? 4 A: Correct, and -- 5 Q: Superintendent of...? 6 A: The -- then what it was called the 7 Policy and Planning Branch of the Ontario Provincial 8 Police. 9 Q: And, briefly, what did that role 10 entail? 11 A: It involved the planning activities, 12 the collation of -- of planning activities for the 13 Ontario Provincial Police and we were also seized at that 14 time with what was -- was known as police orders, which 15 is the policy, operational policies and -- and 16 administrative policies of the Ontario Provincial Police, 17 which again, in those years was in hard copy. 18 And we were responsible for getting the -- 19 those policies approved and distributed to the various 20 detachments and branches of the Ontario Provincial 21 Police. 22 Q: And, was that strictly on the 23 administrative side or on the operational side as well; 24 that is, the policies that you were responsible for? 25 A: Both part -- then -- I'm not sure


1 now, but then, Part 10 of the -- of the policy, there was 2 -- there was some ten (10) sections, and Part 10 was the 3 operational side of the -- the policy. 4 Q: In 1988, you were made Acting Chief 5 Superintendent and placed in charge of the 6 computerization of the Ontario Provincial Police? 7 A: Yes. The -- the computerization and 8 the -- and the -- the fleet and the radio systems. I was 9 there just for a few months. 10 Q: All right. And in 1989 were made 11 chief superintendent of what was then 'B' Division which, 12 as I understand, was Eastern Ontario? 13 A: That's right. All Detachments 14 basically from Windsor to Quebec to Huntsville; the east 15 in Ontario. 16 Q: And you would have been stationed in 17 Toronto? 18 A: And stationed at Toronto but 19 responsible to five (5) districts in the east. 20 Q: And you were then made Superintendent 21 of 'A' Division which I again -- I understand to be 22 southwestern Ontario in 1992? 23 A: Chief Superintendent, yes of -- of 24 'A' Division. 25 Q: Chief Superintendent, pardon me.


1 A: Yes, of 'A' Division, yes. 2 Q: And that would have been in a 3 different locale? 4 A: I, again, was at that time still 5 located at 90 Harbour Street, the office that it was in, 6 but my responsibilities were for southwestern Ontario. 7 Q: And that was your -- you finished 8 your tenure there with the Ontario Provincial Police? 9 A: Well, there was a change into what 10 they called the Western Region. I think you've heard of 11 the administrative change within the Ontario Provincial 12 Police, and I became the Chief Superintendent 13 subsequently in charge of the Western Region of the 14 Ontario Provincial Police before I retired, yes. 15 Q: Okay. Just if we can -- if we can 16 just stay with the configuration as it was on your 17 appointment to Chief Superintendent of 'A' Division in 18 1992, you would have had a certain reporting structure to 19 follow. 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And who was it that you would have 22 reported to then in 1992? 23 A: 1992 I would -- reported to the 24 Deputy Commissioner of Field, who at that time was Deputy 25 Commissioner Peter Campbell.


1 Q: Okay. And the Deputy -- and Deputy 2 Commissioner Peter Campbell, what was he in charge of? 3 A: He was in charge of all field 4 activities for the Ontario Provincial Police. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Which would have been 'A' Division, 7 'B' Division and 'C' Division. 8 Q: In 1995 there was, as we come to 9 understand, a change in the overall organizational 10 structure of the Ontario Provincial Police. 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: I wonder if you would take some -- 13 some time and outline what those changes were? 14 A: In '95 there was a need, through 15 financial constraints, to save a lot of money in the 16 Ontario Provincial Police. The organization looked at 17 how those monies could be recovered and it was decided 18 that the best way would be to cluster detachments. 19 Where historically the Ontario Provincial 20 Police had had literally hundreds of detachments, I think 21 about a hundred and ninety-six (196) throughout the 22 Province of Ontario, it was decided that administratively 23 -- for administration purposes, those detachments, 24 several detachments could be clustered together for 25 administrative purposes, thereby saving dollars as far as


1 the administration area. 2 The number of people did not change 3 patrolling the -- the roads of Ontario, but the number of 4 staff sergeants and sergeants their duties became larger. 5 They had more people involved. 6 And so from a hundred and ninety (190) et 7 cetera detachments, they were reduced to -- and I'm not 8 sure of the number. I think it was ninety-five (95) and 9 then went below that and that's how there was savings. 10 At the same time the Commissioner decided 11 that a review on the reorganization -- reorganization of 12 the Ontario Provincial Police should be considered at the 13 same time. And so the -- the duties of every police 14 officer or administrative officer et cetera was reviewed 15 at that -- that same time. 16 Q: Do you know when approximately that 17 these changes would have been initiated; that is when did 18 they -- when did they commence? 19 A: I think officially they commenced in 20 June of '95 when it became -- when the regions came into 21 place. I stand to be corrected on the exact date but it 22 -- it was a large reorganization, a major reorganization 23 within the Ontario Provincial Police. 24 And because rank structure was -- was 25 changing, you had people in supernumerary positions that


1 held certain positions until such time as those position 2 could be finalized. And there was a certain incentive 3 for people to leave and as those people left, their 4 positions were either replaced or not replaced as to the 5 reorganization. 6 So, it wasn't something that was start -- 7 that could actually be started on one day. Although I'm 8 sure that they actually picked the one day to say this is 9 when the -- the Western Region will be there. 10 The change, as far as field, I use to be 11 the Chief Superintendent of, we'll say 'A' Division; that 12 involved five (5) districts each with a superintendent 13 and two (2) commission office inspectors reporting to me. 14 I lost one (1) of those districts, the 15 Greater Toronto area and I eventually ended up in the 16 downsizing with a couple of inspec -- maybe three (3) 17 inspectors and a -- and a superintendent of operations. 18 That subsequently became two (2) 19 superintendents and some inspectors. But, I -- but by 20 that time I was also leaving the organization, in '96, 21 when I left. 22 Q: When you say you came down to two (2) 23 superintendents; that you mentioned there was a 24 superintendent in charge of operation -- 25 A: Administrative duties which in this


1 case was Superintendent Ron Baronski and superintendent 2 of operations in the final region which was 3 Superintendent Anthony Parkin. 4 Q: All right. Can you tell us, sir, 5 that as a result of the -- of the reorganization you then 6 became the Chief Superintendent of 'A' Division, you had 7 five (5) districts under your command. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how many detachments? If -- if 10 you know, if you can recall. 11 A: Under 'A' Division I think fifty-nine 12 (59) detachments that ultimately reported up through the 13 chain of command to me. I -- I stand to be corrected on 14 that number -- 15 Q: And two (2) of those -- 16 A: -- the exact number. 17 Q: -- two (2) of those detachments at 18 least would be Grand Bend and Forest? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And did the reporting 21 structure change with the reorganization? 22 A: Not really. The Chief Superintendent 23 still reported to the Deputy Commissioner in charge of 24 field operations. 25 Q: So, your -- your reporting was the


1 same? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: All right. And in 1995 the Deputy 4 Commissioner of Field Operations you'd mentioned earlier 5 a name; could you tell us who that was in '95? 6 A: I mentioned -- I'm trying to remember 7 what -- at what time Deputy Commissioner Campbell became 8 the Chief of Police in Halton Regional Police Department. 9 I'm trying to think of a date that -- that he left and I 10 think then he was followed then by Deputy Commissioner 11 Boose. 12 Q: And so it would -- it would have been 13 Deputy Commissioner Boose that you would have had a 14 reporting obligation to? 15 A: Surrounding Ipperwash, yes, it was, 16 sir, at that time. 17 Q: And you would report to him on other 18 matters such as finance, personnel, budget issues, those 19 sorts of things? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: In terms of operations, was there the 22 same reporting structure? 23 A: I need to keep him advised as to what 24 was going on, yes. 25 Q: And in terms of providing that kind


1 of -- when you were advising him of what was going on, 2 what form would that take? 3 A: For the most part, telephone calls or 4 advice that a report was being written by somebody that 5 would be sent to him for his consideration. 6 Q: I take it given your position, that 7 you would not necessarily receive specifics of 8 operational matters that were going on? 9 A: Sometimes I would and sometimes I 10 wouldn't. 11 Q: And would whatever was provided to 12 you be transmitted up the reporting ladder? 13 A: No. Very little would have been 14 reported up. It would basically stop with me. I was in 15 charge and had the authority for all administrative and 16 operational matters. 17 If I saw fit to -- to advise the Deputy 18 Commissioner or if he saw fit to ask me for information 19 that he thought he wished to know, then that information 20 would be provided. 21 Q: The administrative and operational 22 concerns of each of the five (5) districts within your 23 division would be reported to you by -- by whom? 24 A: By the superintendent of those 25 districts.


1 Q: All right. And the manner of that 2 reporting? 3 A: The -- the old district function, 4 which was basically personnel, each district was of 5 roughly three hundred (300) personnel, that -- under the 6 old division system, there would be a superintendent in - 7 - in charge of the overall district and then there would 8 be an inspector responsible for operations and an 9 inspector responsible for administrative duties. 10 Both would wear different hats at 11 different times; if one (1) person was on holiday, the 12 other person would -- would cover both hats, et cetera. 13 But the reporting relationship would come from the 14 district, be it criminal administrative up through to the 15 superintendent. 16 That superintendent, if he -- he in that 17 case saw fit, would maybe require to either tell me or 18 needed my assistance, for the most part, 19 administratively, it was the movement or the changing or 20 personnel, people being transferred, people retiring, et 21 cetera. 22 Q: So, the superintendent of each -- of 23 each district was essentially the -- the commander both 24 for operations and administration? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: All right. And, if the Deputy 2 Commissioner of Field Operations, who you indicated to be 3 Deputy Commissioner Boose, was not available, what would 4 occur in -- in those instances with respect to reporting? 5 A: If Deputy Commissioner Boose was not 6 available, he would assign -- in some instances it would 7 be myself. He would say Chief Coles is responsible for - 8 - I'd take the acting deputy's role while he was on 9 vacation, course, et cetera, or somebody else within the 10 organization. 11 And so, if there was a need to report -- 12 that I felt to report up, then I would possibly report to 13 that actor, if we'll call it an actor in that position, 14 or if I thought it was important enough, I would go 15 directly to the Commissioner. 16 Q: So, you might go to the Commissioner, 17 who at that point in time, was Commissioner Tom O'Grady? 18 A: Thomas O'Grady, yes, sir. 19 Q: All right. And -- and I understand 20 that you had some other previous relationship with him, 21 if I can put it that way? 22 A: Commissioner O'Grady, when I 23 mentioned that I was assigned as a Commission officer to 24 the criminal intelligence -- to the Criminal 25 Investigation Branch, Major Crimes, then Superintendent


1 O'Grady was my boss and so I had a much more operational 2 -- I would be involved in major case management and he 3 was my -- my supervisor and I would report to him and 4 tell him what was going on; very -- very operational in - 5 - in that time. 6 Q: I just want to -- before -- before I 7 carry on with this line, I just want to finish up with 8 the curriculum vitae. 9 Your curriculum vitae indicates that from 10 1996 to 2000, I take it after your retirement from the 11 Ontario Provincial Police in the capacity of Chief 12 Superintendent, you then went on as chief of police in 13 Tillsonburg, Ontario? 14 A: When I left the Ontario Provincial 15 Police, I had no intention of continuing into policing. 16 The then-chief of Tillsonburg, a fellow by the name of 17 Chief -- Chief Harley, left and the Police Services Board 18 approached me and asked if I would consider coming to the 19 town of Tillsonburg. 20 They were trying to make some decisions as 21 to where they should go in their policing, whether or not 22 they should go with a county policing structure, or 23 whether or not they should stay stand-alone, or if they 24 should seek the -- the duties of the Ontario Provincial 25 Police, and they asked if I would come down and basically


1 provide them with a report. 2 I went down expecting it to be some eight 3 (8) months in duration. Because of the duties of the 4 chief, I -- I required that I be the, as I called it the 5 "interim chief" because I had no intention of staying if 6 they -- whatever they chose -- it became a -- almost a 7 four (4) and a half year position, which was very good 8 and I enjoyed and they -- they treated me -- the Town of 9 Tillsonburg treated me extremely well, as did the 10 officers of that police service, yes. 11 Q: Okay. In 2001 to 2003 you were 12 involved with the St. John's Ambulance as a volunteer 13 District Chair? 14 A: Yes, they -- they had administrative 15 -- there's a foundation and a trust and I had been asked 16 to be a member of the Board of St. John and I -- I went 17 there and then subsequently became the Chair later on and 18 then subsequently went on and I've recently retired from 19 Ontario Council of St. John, yes. 20 Q: And, you were -- served as -- in the 21 Director's capacity from 2003 to 2005, as well? 22 A: Correct, yes. 23 Q: In terms of your education, you've 24 indicated your degree in 1976 from the University of 25 Guelph; you also have a diploma, sir, from Police


1 Management Studies, Canadian Police College in 1987. 2 Is that what you had spoke to earlier? 3 A: That's correct. It looks good on the 4 vitae but, in all honesty, if you had a Bachelor's degree 5 and were a commissioned officer, they gave me the -- the 6 advance police studies, you applied for it and you were 7 given it. There was not a course of study. 8 Q: I see. You have, as well, taken the 9 executive development course at Canadian Police College; 10 do you know what the date of that might have been? 11 A: It would have been -- I stand to be 12 corrected, but I believe it would have been in 1988 when 13 I was a superintendent in planning division. 14 Q: And similarly with respect to the 15 university -- to the executive program that you had taken 16 at Queen's University, the School of Business 17 Administration, do you know the approximate dates of that 18 course of study? 19 A: The early '90's, I would say. It was 20 a three (3) week executive course and it was -- I believe 21 it was in '90. I'm not 100 percent sure. 22 I know I was -- I was the chief 23 superintendent, so it -- it -- it would have been, I 24 believe in '91/'92. 25 Q: All right. Thank you for that, sir.


1 Commissioner, perhaps we can mark that as an exhibit? 2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-554, Your 3 Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 554. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-554: Curriculum Vitae of 7 Christopher Coles, OstJ, BA. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: You had indicated before I -- before 11 I jumped over on you, and I apologize for that, sir, that 12 you might take the direct route to report to Commissioner 13 Thomas O'Grady. 14 What circumstances might that reporting 15 arrangement arise? 16 A: If I was the acting deputy then I 17 would report to the Commissioner. And if it was an 18 operational matter that I believed that Commissioner 19 O'Grady needed to be kept up to speed about, I would 20 consider calling him. 21 Under then-Deputy Peter Campbell, for the 22 most part, I would have tried to make sure that I always 23 went through Peter Campbell. 24 When Deputy Commissioner Boose came in, he 25 was involved because of the -- he was in charge of the


1 reorganization of the -- of the force, administratively, 2 and it was a major, major task. 3 And for many operational matters such as 4 Ipperwash, I had an agreement basically, with Deputy 5 Commissioner Boose that he respected that, operationally, 6 if I -- if I chose to speak to O'Grady, that he really 7 didn't have a problem with it. 8 I always tried to keep him in the loop but 9 I would -- it was just simply that if I -- if it was 10 important enough for me to tell Deputy Commissioner 11 Boose, he probably would have told the Commissioner. And 12 so it was just -- if it was operation he would basically 13 say, Chris, it's okay to go to Commissioner Tom O'Grady, 14 and -- and that's how it was done. 15 Q: All right. What sort of things, sir, 16 might you consider to be important enough to take that 17 reporting avenue? 18 A: Basically anything that I thought -- 19 oh, to go to the Commissioner? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: It would have been severe enough -- 22 maybe the reputation of the Ontario Provincial Police 23 might come into question, that an operation had gone 24 wrong or right and maybe he should know that. I might 25 have told him that; any -- any death or injury to a -- to


1 one of my officers or his officers at that time, I would 2 say. 3 Q: All right. And I understand that 4 there was a process whereby senior officers would meet on 5 a regular basis with the Commissioner? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: There was a management committee, as 8 I understand it? 9 A: Management committee that would meet 10 approximately once a month. 11 Q: And who was this management committee 12 -- what was the composition of this committee? 13 A: Initially, under the old -- under the 14 division concept. And when I was the Chief 15 Superintendent of "A" Division, it would have been the 16 Chief Superintendents and above responsible for the 17 various field location, the field chiefs, which there 18 were three (3), the investigations division of which 19 there were two (2) Chief Superintendents, and then the 20 administrative side. 21 I believe there was two (2) there also; 22 that was the old management committee. 23 So, it was Chief Superintendent and above. 24 It -- when the reorganization took place in the Western 25 Region and just prior to that, there were a few


1 Superintendents that were also included in that, and that 2 was because of all the changes of the reorganization and 3 the anticipated changes of the reorganization. 4 Human resources became a -- much of the 5 dialogue at that -- management committee involved human 6 resources in the changes to that. And so the 7 Commissioner saw fit to also include the human resource 8 people. 9 Q: All right. And with respect to these 10 management committee meetings, who was responsible for 11 the maintenance of records of minutes of setting the 12 agenda? 13 A: That would have been the -- whoever 14 the Commissioner assigned, but in that case it was 15 usually his executive assistant at that time. 16 Q: All right. I want to refer you to 17 Tab 18 in the book of documents in front of you, sir. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: For the benefit of -- for the benefit 22 of my colleagues, that is Inquiry Document 2000310. 23 It's -- I have a four (4) page document; 24 it's titled, Minutes: Ontario Provincial Police 25 management committee.


1 It's dated Tuesday, July 4th, 1995 9:00 2 a.m. building tour at 9:15. 10:15 a.m. meeting, 3 Commissioner's Boardroom 777 Memorial Avenue, Orillia. 4 It's up on the board. Is that a document 5 that you might recognize as being a record of a 6 management committee meeting? 7 A: It would be the minutes of the 8 management committee, correct. 9 Q: I just wanted to refer to that, and 10 I'll certainly be coming and bringing you back to that at 11 a later point in this examination. 12 All right. Getting back to one of the 13 lines I'd asked you earlier, sir, with respect to the 14 intelligence program or -- what was the intelligence 15 program in 1995. 16 For example, with respect to each 17 district, did it have it's own intelligence function or 18 was there some centralized intelligence program? 19 A: If we're going to talk about the 20 overall intelligence function of the Ontario Provincial 21 Police, is that basically what you're asking? 22 Q: Sure -- 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: -- let's start there. 25 A: The -- each Detachment would have in


1 its criminal investigation group; now if it was a small 2 Detachment that may be the person wearing several hats. 3 But in -- within the -- the criminal investigation of the 4 Detachment, there would be a person that was inside -- 5 that would be assigned the intelligence function of 6 reporting intelligence information up through the then 7 district command. 8 Now, under the old districts, you would 9 have had a crime management team at the London, Chatham, 10 Mount Forest, Burlington area. 11 At the district level, there would be a 12 person responsible for intelligence functions, so the 13 Detachment personnel -- person responsible for 14 intelligence, would have reported up to the district 15 intelligence officer, who would have reported to a 16 detective sergeant or detective staff sergeant for the 17 district. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: That information would have been 20 utilized either by that detective staff sergeant for 21 district criminal activities, or if it went further 22 afield, then that report might now then go to the special 23 services, the investigation -- the investigation arm at 24 general headquarters, of which there was an intelligence 25 branch.


1 The intelligence branch of Toronto, or of 2 the Ontario Provincial Police, also had decentralized 3 offices. They, for the most part, were at some of the 4 border points; Windsor, Niagra Falls. 5 There was one in London. Kingston had an 6 intelligence office; it was also associated to the 7 Canadian penitentiary system, the activities there. 8 I believe there was one in Ottawa and I 9 believe one in North Bay, but I'm not quite sure. But I 10 know that at one time that there was. 11 And so those -- those decentralized 12 intelligence branch officers would liaise with the 13 District Intelligence Coordinator and the activities 14 would then be channelled up into the intelligence branch 15 as I -- to the analytical section or the collation of 16 that material to further to other police departments, the 17 CISO as I mentioned, Criminal Intelligence Service 18 Ontario. And so, that's how the intelligence functioned. 19 Now, the Detective Staff Sergeant that I 20 talked about in the district, he or she -- it was, at 21 that time he, had reporting relationships to the then- 22 Inspector in charge of criminal operations for the 23 district, the old district. So, that would be the 24 reporting relationship that they would -- that they would 25 have; that's under the old district -- the old district


1 and division system. 2 Q: And, did that change with the 3 reorganization in 1995? 4 A: Other than the fact that the district 5 -- that the districts ceased to be, the -- you still had 6 detachment intelligence officers, you still had 7 decentralized intelligence officers form the 8 investigation division, and the reporting relationship, 9 instead of going to -- would have gone through then the 10 Chief Superintendent's office where I had a -- a 11 Superintendent in charge of criminal operations. 12 When it was in the interim, it was 13 Superintendent Tom Wall and then subsequently 14 operational, it became Superintendent Anthony Parkin, but 15 again the relationships from the detachment could have 16 either gone to the intelligence branch or it could have 17 gone to -- up through the -- the field criminal 18 management system. 19 Q: What would determine which way that 20 that information flowed? 21 A: Basically, the information on the 22 report. I suggest if it was an intelligence report that 23 suggested there was some kind of criminal activity that 24 another police department needed to know, then basically 25 it would be sent to the intelligence -- centralized


1 intelligence function. 2 If it was one where another detachment had 3 to know, there's activities involving another detachment, 4 then the District Intelligence Officer might forward a 5 report. But for the most part within the organization, 6 it would have been telephone calls or, if it was 7 sufficient enough, a reporting relationship. 8 Q: All right. And, if it -- if it was 9 a matter that was confined to a particular detachment, 10 where would that information go from the intelligence 11 officer? 12 Would it go, for example, to the 13 investigators? 14 A: If it was specific to it -- I guess 15 if the intelligence officer received information and he 16 knew that an -- that another criminal investigation -- 17 gator -- in that detachment was working on the case, then 18 that information would just go person-to-person. 19 If it was another detachment, then it 20 would go to the -- maybe the intelligence officer in the 21 other detachment or the criminal investigator. But once 22 it went outside of, basically the Ontario Provincial 23 Police then, in fact, it would have gone through the 24 central branch or would have gone to those decentralized 25 bureaus.


1 Q: And, when you say, "the central 2 branch?" 3 A: The -- in Toronto; at that time in 4 Toronto, subsequently Orillia. 5 Q: All right. By 1995 it was -- that 6 centralized branch was in -- was in Orillia? 7 A: Yes, it was. 8 Q: And, there was a criminal -- criminal 9 investigation branch investigator that was assigned at 10 that point in time and certainly we'll come to this, to 11 the Ipperwash file, that is? 12 A: Yes, there was. I -- I should 13 mention, the criminal investigation branch of the Ontario 14 Provincial Police also had decentralized officers to 15 London as did the anti-rackets branch. They -- they 16 reported through to Toronto or Orillia, but there -- 17 there were -- there were decentralized offices also. 18 Q: And, their reporting function, I take 19 it, was not only up, but it was also lateral, that they 20 could report intelligence information on a need-to-know 21 basis to individual detachments or districts? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: All right. As a consequence of this 24 organization, you had indicated there was a significant 25 reduction in the number of detachments?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: There was some reduction on an 3 attrition sort of basis of personnel, at least in a 4 management capacity? 5 A: Of management, yes. 6 Q: All right. What -- what about 7 people on the ground, that is, frontline officers, 8 investigators? 9 A: Part -- part of the mandate of the 10 reorganization, if I remember the mandate of the -- was 11 that the -- the people on the road would not diminish, 12 operating police officers would not diminish in -- in... 13 Q: All right. Often times, sir, when we 14 see reorganizations of a major scale such as we had here, 15 they're at least initially perhaps might be some 16 confusion as to roles, responsibilities, perhaps 17 confusion as to reporting lines, authorities; do you 18 recall anything like that being problematic? 19 A: Being problematic, no. Yes, there 20 were at times confusions. Basically, still inspectors in 21 the old division that were there, and basically 22 detachment commanders who before they wanted to have 23 somebody transferred or -- or wanted to plea the case of 24 somebody who wished to move, they would have gone to the 25 inspectors. Now they -- they had to come to the


1 superintendents in the division, but not problematic as 2 far as I'm concerned. 3 Q: All right. And by September of 1995 4 you were then the Chief Superintendent of the Western 5 Region, you had a superintendent in charge of operations. 6 I believe you've already referred to Tony Parkins. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: You had a superintendent in charge of 9 administration, you referred to him as well, Ron 10 Baronski. 11 A: Baronski. Superintendent Baronski. 12 Q: You had of course regular meetings 13 with these -- with these officers? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And had additional individuals 16 assigned to deal specifically with the human resources 17 issues within the region? 18 A: There was a Member that was assigned 19 to my office. I had just set up new offices, but there 20 was a Member assigned to my office who basically reported 21 to me for HR, the duties, but he -- he had a reporting 22 relationship to human resources in Orillia. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I expect 24 that we will go until at least as is normal process, to 25 go to at least one o'clock this afternoon before the noon


1 break if that's all right with you. And I'm assuming 2 that we would then go until approximately 5:00 o'clock. 3 I'm going to move to a new area and I'm 4 wondering if you wish to have a morning break that 5 perhaps this is an appropriate time. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you think 7 this is a good time, we'll break now. I would have 8 thought we might go a little longer. But, if you think 9 this is a good time, we'll break now. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Certainly this would 11 be a good time. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, we'll 13 break now. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 11:26 a.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 11:48 a.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed, please be seated. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 23 we begin, I would like to just deal with one (1) 24 housekeeping matter arising out of the ruling -- your 25 ruling -- that released this morning.


1 It was brought to my attention that the 2 ruling did not discuss the issue of Mr. Cossett. It was 3 my understand that the agreement of the parties, which 4 was that Mr. Cossett's file would be treated the same way 5 as any -- as the other files which were the subject of 6 the motion. 7 The motion was, of course, to set aside 8 the summons that had been issued with respect to Messrs. 9 Dyke and Whitehead and the mugs and T-shirts, and not 10 with respect to Mr. Cossett, so that the parties agreed 11 that the same principles would apply to Mr. Cossett. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 13 think it's necessary to say it in the ruling, our 14 decision -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We can't hear you, 16 sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That is the 18 understanding and I assume everybody's still on the same 19 wavelength. 20 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes, if -- if it 21 assists Commissioner, I had assumed that -- that your 22 ruling would obtain to that as well -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. MARK SANDLER: -- and that we could 25 take ourselves obligated, subject to any stated case to


1 produce materials relating to Mr. Cossett, so... 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, that's fine. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 That's fine. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: We'll carry on, 6 Commissioner? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Mr. Coles, just to finalize one (1) - 11 - one (1) other matter with respect to your on -- your 12 ongoing employment, your subsequent retirement, one (1) 13 of the things that I've noticed is that many officers who 14 have accumulated the breadth and depth of experience, 15 such as yourself, oftentimes they find themselves in much 16 higher demand post-retirement and I wonder if that's the 17 same in your case. 18 Have you carried on with some other types 19 of work initiatives, whether it's contract or otherwise? 20 A: I do, from time-to-time, do private 21 investigation for legal counsel. I'm -- I'm very picky 22 as to -- to what I want investigate. I do renovations. 23 I own houses and to be honest, I would rather bang nails 24 than investigate. But I -- I enjoy renovation and so I 25 do that.


1 Q: All right. And, specifically, with 2 respect to some of the investigation-type work that 3 you've undertaken, have you been involved at all in 4 anything in relation to the Ipperwash incident? 5 A: No, I have not. There was a 6 situation that it was suggested maybe I would and I -- I 7 declined. 8 Q: Thank you for that, sir. I want to 9 move on, then, sir, if -- if we may to the OPP policy 10 regarding an involvement in occupations and aboriginal 11 protests and I understand that you bring some experience 12 and brought some experience to your position. 13 You are aware, for example, in the early 14 1990's there was an OPP -- OPP policy plan, pardon me, 15 with respect to protests and occupations. It has been 16 filed in these proceedings as Exhibit 472. And I wonder 17 if we just might have that up on the -- up on the screen. 18 You will find that, sir, at Tab 1 of the 19 book of documents in front of you; that is Inquiry 20 Document 3000759. And, it is entitled, Briefing Note for 21 the Interministerial Policy Forum dated November 26 of 22 1991. 23 Do you see that, sir? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: And, it simply indicates when dealing


1 with protestors, hostage takers, et cetera and, I quote: 2 "The initial response of the OPP has 3 traditionally been one of negotiation 4 in an effort to avoid the use of 5 physical force if at all possible." 6 It goes on to read: 7 "The only exception to this approach 8 has been in situations where death or 9 serious injury was immediately probable 10 if force was not used to control 11 events." 12 And, I'll skip a bit. It goes on: 13 "It is prudent on the part of police to 14 ensure that the ownership issue is 15 resolved prior to taking action. In 16 most cases, the question of ownership 17 or rightful occupation can be addressed 18 from a policy of point of view if the 19 Complainant is successful in obtaining 20 an injunction, which specifies what 21 action, if any, the police must take." 22 Do you follow that? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: "And, the long-term result [I'll read 25 on] of the use of force must always be


1 considered. In some instances force 2 will quickly resolve a short term 3 problem but result in the committal of 4 massive resources for long periods of 5 time in the future. 6 In the final analysis, a negotiated 7 solution is always more desirable than 8 one brought about by the use of force." 9 And you're familiar -- you're familiar 10 with that? 11 A: I'm familiar with the gist of that 12 document, that it was the way that we approached First 13 Nations issues post '91, but I'm not neccesar -- that 14 it's an interministerial policy forum that I did not 15 attend. 16 Q: So, you haven't -- you haven't seen 17 this document before or you have no recollection of 18 seeing this document before? 19 A: This specific document, no. 20 Q: Okay. But nonetheless, your evidence 21 is that you're familiar with the general tenure of the 22 document? 23 A: Exactly. 24 Q: And, in fact, you have been involved 25 in the past in the implementation of this policy, as I


1 understand it? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: You've had some involvement in 4 blockades, that sort of thing, and issues involving First 5 Nations matters? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And I wonder if you might just 8 describe some of those involvements, what your experience 9 was? 10 A: Other than the normal -- when I was 11 in charge of the divisions where basically a First 12 Nations issue or a blockade might arise, be it First 13 Nations or be it truckers, et cetera, I would be apprised 14 of the ongoing operations as the commanders saw fit. 15 When -- as far as First Nation issues, I 16 became involved at Akwesasne. I was the division 17 commander of 'B' Division. 18 The Akwesasne First Nation Territory was 19 experiencing internal unrest over gambling/non-gambling 20 support. And the Mohawk police service of Akwesasne came 21 under considerable threat, resulting in one particular 22 night of firearms being discharged at or near the Mohawk 23 police service. 24 Thankfully, no one was hurt, but as a 25 result of that, the Province of Quebec, and the Ontario


1 Provincial Police, because it's a multi-jurisdictional 2 First Nation territory, goes across international 3 boundaries as well as provincial boundaries, we ended up 4 having a joint response to the Akwesasne and there had 5 been blockades, et cetera, that had been set up. 6 Q: Just if we could stay with the point 7 of the multi-jurisdiction matter for a -- for a moment. 8 Those jurisdictions, you've indicated, involved Ontario 9 and Quebec? 10 A: They ent -- they entailed the 11 province of Quebec which is what they call the Snye on 12 the south shore of -- of St. Lawrence River, Cornwall 13 Island which is in the -- is the First Nation territory 14 of Akwesasne, but is also within the Province of Ontario 15 for jurisdictions. 16 I think it's called Racket's Point which 17 is in the United States of America in -- in New York 18 State and the Federal jurisdiction, the boundaries, if 19 you will, between Canada and the US. 20 And so in that response you basically had, 21 Quebec chose to call, because there had been considerable 22 gunfire, not towards police officers but towards the -- 23 well, towards the Mohawk police. 24 So, you had the Province of Quebec that 25 saw fit to also invite the Military in support. You had


1 the RCMP in support of the military, who was supporting 2 Quebec. You had the New York State Police who was 3 involved in the -- in the point that was in New York and 4 you had the Ontario Provincial Police. 5 Initially, those police sources came with 6 their own trailers, if you will, their own incident 7 command vehicles. That did -- that doesn't work in my 8 opinion in large operations. 9 So, what I offered was at Long Sault we 10 had a -- a large old general -- a general -- a district 11 headquarters. And I offered that building to all, so 12 basically what happened is the New York State Police was 13 given an office, the -- the Surete was given an office, 14 the RCMP were given an office, the Military in support of 15 Quebec was given an office. And the operation was 16 handled from there. 17 There had been an evacuation by First 18 Nations people by the Grand Chief who had evacuated some 19 people from the -- from the territory and we basically 20 was in a setting up checkpoints to -- to keep the peace 21 on the island at the request of the Grand Chief of -- of 22 that territory. 23 That was one that I was involved in. I'm 24 having trouble thinking and maybe somebody could help me. 25 I was involved in a First Nations issue in Northern


1 Ontario involving lumber disputes. 2 Q: That would be Temagami? 3 A: It was in the Temagami area. There's 4 actually a name of the road. I want to call it Gaylord 5 (phonetic) but I'm -- 6 Q: Was it Red Squirrel Road? 7 A: No, not the Red Squirrel. It was 8 another one. It was in -- it was -- I could find it 9 later on, but I -- I think it was the Gaylord Lumber 10 Company and they owned a road and there was a First 11 Nations dispute as to the method of lumber, et cetera. 12 It was remote, it was in the Temagami 13 area, and it was remote. And I -- I handled the -- a 14 protest situation in that area. 15 Q: Now, just before you move off that, 16 the -- the protest that you handled in that area I take 17 it that would be pursuant to the policy that we have just 18 referred to earlier that's still up on the board? 19 A: Correct. The Ministry of Natural 20 Resources also were involved in that particular road and 21 had ownership and there was a dispute as to owners -- who 22 owned the road. But my interaction was with the Ministry 23 of Natural Resources for them to get an injunction. 24 The injunction, much as the same as 25 Ipperwash, eventually was not secured because the protest


1 basically ceased to exist. 2 Q: All right. And that was an incident 3 -- unlike the Akwesasne matter that you've just referred 4 to where you were invited in, I take it there was no 5 invitation in the last incident you referred to? 6 A: Strictly there, much the same as our 7 involvement in Red Squirrel, basically one of keeping the 8 peace between protesters, but in this particular case we 9 -- we were able to resolve it. 10 Then following Akwesasne, of course, you 11 had Oka. And then following the Oka, I believe, that's 12 when this -- there were many demonstrations by First 13 Nations people following the Oka blockades of roads and 14 marches, et cetera, of which the Ontario Provincial 15 Police was involved. 16 And I was involved -- as my field 17 personnel were involved, I would have been involved in 18 some of those; if it was a local blockade. I can 19 remember one at Curve Lake in eastern Ontario and other 20 places. 21 Q: In any of those matters where you 22 were involved in whatever capacity, and in terms of the 23 policy put before you, did you ever deviate from the 24 initial goal of negotiating a peaceful solution prior to 25 the use of force?


1 A: No, sir. 2 Q: Was, in any of those instances, was 3 the use of force resorted to? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: All right. During your service with 6 the Ontario Provincial Police, had you ever occasion to 7 call the emergency response team? 8 A: Not in a crowd management situation. 9 I've called the emergency response teams for searches. 10 One -- of the mandates is also for search, so I've called 11 them for searches at homicide scenes, et cetera. We've 12 utilized them there but not as a crowd management. 13 I believe, at Akwesasne, when we initially 14 set up the roadblocks we also had ERT members involved. 15 But that was invited by the First Nations territory and 16 then we set up -- 17 Q: And that is -- 18 A: -- checkpoints. 19 Q: And that was as a consequence if I 20 might, as a result of the reports of gunfire? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. You mention the events in 23 Oka; those are the events in 1990? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And there was some involvement by you


1 in that, was there? 2 A: No, sir. Because it was in the 3 Province of Quebec. 4 Q: The -- 5 A: But there was a -- a fallout of -- of 6 First Nation tensions, if I can use that word, because of 7 Oka. So, yes, there was some fallout from that; various 8 demonstrations and marches. 9 Q: All right. And do you know how many, 10 approximately, various demonstrations and the like might 11 have occurred in Ontario that you would have been 12 involved in as a result of the occurrences on Oka? 13 A: Not to be exact, sir, no. Quite a 14 few, though. 15 Q: Turning, then, to the events in 1993 16 concerning Ipperwash, you had received a briefing note on 17 May the 6th advising that there was a demonstration at 18 Camp Ipperwash. 19 If I can refer you to Tab Number 3, that 20 is Document 2001199, it's Exhibit P-167 in these 21 proceedings and it refers to a briefing note of July 22 14th, 1990 -- pardon me, it is a briefing note of May 23 6th, 1993. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: And, I note on the cover page of that 2 fact sheet that you were copied on that as Chief 3 Superintendent of Field 'A' Division? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And, turning to the briefing note 6 itself, the issue there was a native demonstration at 7 Camp Ipperwash, 1000 hours May 6th, 1993. 8 And, it goes on, sir, in terms of the 9 background on that, that there was a demonstration 10 reported by Carl George, Chief of the Stoney Point First 11 Nation and in brackets, Kettle Point? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: It looks as though this note 14 indicates that Mr. George then reported a peaceful 15 occupation of the Army Camp to -- that was -- that -- 16 that will occur, rather, pursuant to ongoing native 17 claims for the return of this land to them. 18 So, in other words, this briefing note 19 outlines the background of a dispute. It advises that 20 Carl George had called the Forest OPP detachment on May 21 the 6th. He tells the detachment what's going to go on, 22 what the First Nations people in the area were going to 23 do, why they were going to do that. And it was prepared 24 so that the media relations branch and Provincial 25 Commander, I take it, would be aware of what was going


1 on? 2 A: That appears to be so. 3 Q: And, the last paragraph, it indicates 4 there's no police involvement or presence to this time, 5 nor has there been a request for same. 6 This was for information only? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And, do you recall at that point, 9 sir, being advised of this, or seeing this copy come 10 across your desk? 11 A: I do not have my '93 diary with me. 12 If I had it, I could tell you whether or not I was 13 working at that time, that I wasn't on annual leave, et 14 cetera, but I have every reason to believe that I did see 15 this. I definitely became aware of it, if not in this 16 particular document, either by telephone call or shortly 17 thereafter. I was made aware by the district. 18 Q: All right. And, just with respect to 19 these OPP briefing notes, I wonder if you could tell us 20 what the process of this was. 21 Where -- where did this information go? 22 What was the flow of information? 23 A: In a matter of -- that's deemed 24 significant by either the -- in the division -- I'm 25 talking division in this time, by the District


1 Superintendent and/or myself as a Chief Superintendent 2 and/or the Deputy Commissioner or the Commissioner, they 3 saw fit that they wanted a briefing note, then a note 4 would be prepared by the persons who had knowledge of the 5 event and that would have been then sent to the general 6 headquarters. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: With a carbon copy to me. 9 Q: I'm sorry? 10 A: With a carbon copy to me in this 11 case. 12 Q: All right. And from the 13 Commissioner's office what would happen with that 14 information? Was it in turn, transmitted to the Ministry 15 of the Solicitor General's office? 16 A: My answer to that will be: I have no 17 first hand knowledge. We prepared them and they went to 18 the Commissioner's office; that best be -- could be 19 answered by Commissioner O'Grady. 20 Q: Certainly. When you were first 21 alerted to this matter by way of, I take it, and perhaps 22 I should ask you this: As this the first time that you 23 had become aware that there was First Nations issue 24 involve -- involving CFB Ipperwash? 25 A: Specifically, yes.


1 Q: All right. Did you have any initial 2 feeling as to what this situation was? 3 A: My position was basically, what's the 4 background in this. And I asked a constable in my office 5 what -- Constable Watkins if he would go to 1 District 6 and get some of the background information that they had. 7 And I'm not sure if it was faxed or if he 8 actually went and picked it up, but I then received a 9 document or a spate of documents concerning -- and that's 10 when I became more intimately involved -- knowledge that 11 the First Nations of Kettle and Stony Point had -- had an 12 issue. 13 And I started to read and that's where I 14 became first aware of the use of Stony Point without an 15 "E" and Stoney Point with an "E", and became aware in 16 those -- that spate of documents about the seizure under 17 the first -- under the War Measures Act. 18 That was the first time I became aware of 19 it. 20 Q: Do you know the approximate time when 21 you would have come to this awareness? 22 A: Some time between the -- May the 6th 23 and May the 20th of 1993. 24 Q: All right. And you say that 25 information was provided to you, was retrieved and


1 provided to you by one Constable Watkins of your office? 2 A: I asked him. We were a very small 3 office at that time -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- and I asked him to go and get the 6 information, because I wanted to know about the history 7 of it. 8 Q: And do you know what efforts and 9 where he went in order to locate this information? 10 A: To 1 District. 11 Q: And the 1 District is? 12 A: The Chatham headquarters at that 13 time. 14 Q: And do you know from whom he would 15 have obtained this information? 16 A: It -- I suggest it would probably 17 have been from the district files of either -- and 18 Inspector McKenna or Inspector Turner who were then 19 inspectors there, and they would have got it from 1 20 District files. 21 Q: Do you have those documents -- had 22 you maintained those documents that you were referring 23 to? 24 A: They would have been in the division 25 files. I know that I read them and they were -- they


1 were there. 2 Q: Okay. And when you had initially 3 observed this matter, did you determine at some point in 4 time that it was a policing matter or some other? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I guess what I'm getting at, sir, 9 from the basis of that particular briefing note, did you 10 come to any conclusions as to whether or not, for 11 example, this might be a criminal law matter, or some 12 other type of matter? 13 A: I expected there to be ramifications, 14 I guess, is my answer to that. As a result of it, I 15 expected that the Military would act or not act or that 16 we might become involved and that's why, basically, we 17 were then -- myself and then Superintendent Tom Wall who 18 was the superintendent of my operation at that time, we 19 started to get up to speed as far as what the -- the 20 ramifications might have been or might be. 21 Q: In terms of getting up to speed, the 22 initial step was to inform yourself and that's why you 23 despatched Constable Watkins to obtain that information? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Beyond that, do you recall what


1 efforts you would have taken at that immediate time? 2 A: Other than discussions with then 3 Superintendent Wall, basically as to how we should act 4 and then subsequently as it -- as it escalated then we 5 took other actions but it was -- at this time it was 6 basically a occupation that was peaceful. 7 I wanted to know what the occupation -- 8 what it was about and so just come up to speed for 9 myself. 10 Q: When you became aware that it was a 11 First Nations claim to this land, that they were seeking 12 the return of it, subsequent to seizure under the War 13 Measures Act, did you formulate any opinion at that point 14 in time whether it was a criminal law matter, civil 15 matter, or any such thing? 16 A: I think I became aware that, within 17 the First Nations territory itself, that there was some 18 dissension as to -- I became aware of those -- those 19 situations, so it was a matter of me educating myself. 20 Q: Well, let me ask you this: Did you 21 take any steps at that time, or did anybody under your 22 command take steps to commence a criminal investigation 23 in spite of the fact that there had been no request at 24 that point? 25 A: No, sir. No, sir.


1 Q: Now, that you became aware of this 2 dispute or this issue arising, did you take any steps to 3 appoint any personnel to begin the investigation or to 4 begin to essentially look at the incident? 5 A: Sometime between the 6th of May and 6 the 20th of May, and the reason I'm saying 20th of May, I 7 know I had a meeting with the Military at that time, but 8 there was discussions between Superintendent Wall and 9 myself as to who we might assign as the Incident 10 Commander; would it be the 1 District people? 11 And, the decision was, I think, made by 12 Tom Wall which I supported that then-Inspector John 13 Carson, who was a resident -- I believe a resident of 14 Forest or had been the Forest Detachment Commander, was 15 knowledgeable about the area and -- and the territory of 16 Kettle and Stony Point, that he would be a good person to 17 kind of collate the information that we had. 18 And there was the assignment of John 19 Carson to be the Incident -- not -- at this time to be 20 involved in getting up to speed and possibly being a 21 liaison officer with the Military should that have been 22 needed. 23 Q: All right. Now, Inspector Coles, as 24 he -- as he then was, testified on Wednesday, May the 25 12th -- pardon me -- Carson, pardon me, testified that on


1 May the 10th at page 201 line 17 of the transcript, that 2 he was appointed Incident Commander on Wednesday, May 3 12th of 1993. Does that...? 4 A: That would fit, sir. 5 Q: And you don't have any reason to 6 disagree with that? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: As incident commander, part of his 9 duty, then, was to prepare an operational plan, correct? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And, that was done, we came to 12 understand, through -- through Mr. Carson's testimony, 13 that was done in May and June of 1993 with respect to 14 that occupation? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Do you recall seeing a copy of the 17 operational plan? 18 A: No, sir, not actually seeing the 19 planning. 20 Q: I'll refer you to Tab 2 of the book 21 of documents before you; that is Inquiry Document 22 2002678. And that is Exhibit 400. 23 It's entitled at the top of the page, 24 Ontario Provincial Police Number 1 District; that is the 25 district you'd referred us to, sir?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Operational Plan Occupation of 3 Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: All right. In addition, sir, at Tab 6 5 of that same book of documents, Inquiry Document 7 2002951. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: It appears essentially as the same 12 document at the outside -- at the outset, rather, but 13 there are amendments as you look closer at the document. 14 A: Tab 2 appears to me to be revised up 15 until, I think it was May 28th, I saw. And then the Tab 16 5, I see a date revised as of the 2nd of June '93. 17 Q: So once an operational plan is 18 created by an incident commander, that's not to say that 19 that cannot be amended obviously? 20 A: No, sir. It can be amended. 21 Q: You had mentioned just earlier, sir, 22 that you had a meeting with the Military Base -- pardon 23 me, with members of the -- at the Military Base with 24 members of the Mili -- with Military officials? 25 A: That's correct. Major General Vernon


1 on May the 20th. 2 Q: Can you recall that meeting? 3 A: Yes, sir. It was my birthday so 4 that's -- 5 Q: All right. And can you tell us what 6 happened at that meeting, or the nature of the 7 discussion, what that was about, what decisions, if any, 8 were taken? 9 A: My recollection was I was in the 10 office and I received a call from somebody from the 11 military suggesting that Major General Vernon was coming 12 down and that I should attend the barracks to meet him. 13 I took a little exception to the way that 14 person directed that I should act as I was summoned. 15 Q: Perhaps you can -- you can just 16 elaborate on that if you would. 17 A: Basically he -- I guess the 18 individual thought that if he told me what to do, I was 19 going to do it because Major General Vernon was coming 20 down. It took me a little bit off guard -- well not off 21 guard, but I -- I reacted to his demeanor we'll say and 22 basically said, No, it's not convenient for me at this 23 time. 24 That was not right really but I -- I chose 25 to do that. Then another gentleman phoned me up who was


1 much more conciliatory and suggested that it would be 2 very convenient if I was -- because the Major General had 3 come down and I -- myself and Tom Wall went. 4 I was wrong of course. But, it was the 5 approach the gentleman took to me that I took exception 6 to. And yes, I then had a significant meeting with Major 7 General Vernon and members of his staff. 8 Q: And do you recall who you may have 9 had accompanying you to that meeting? 10 A: I think it was Tom Wall, accompanied 11 me. 12 Q: All right. Do you recall whether or 13 not Inspector Carson as he then was, attended at that 14 meeting? 15 A: I can't -- I can't recall if he was 16 there. 17 Q: Do you recall any of the discussions 18 that might have occurred at that meeting specifically 19 colour of right type of discussions? 20 A: What I remember of that meeting was 21 basically the position of: What would the Ontario 22 Provincial Police be doing? How would we approach this 23 matter? 24 My position was that in and for the -- the 25 defence establishment, the Military were peacekeepers for


1 that location and were peace officers. 2 If they chose to take action and that 3 involved a breach of the -- of the peace outside of the 4 Base, i.e., if they had been -- were removed from the 5 Base -- if occupiers or people were removed from the Base 6 and then intended to go back into the Base, that we would 7 address the -- a peaceful solution or basically address 8 the keeping of the peace. 9 I also advised the General that it was my 10 opinion that the Military should seek a -- and I wasn't 11 telling the Military, but -- but it would be better if 12 the Military sought an injunction. 13 And we did have some dialogue as to 14 whether or not an injunction would be sought by the 15 Military. But I have no reco -- I know the Military did 16 not tell me that they were going to get an injunction, it 17 was an avenue that we talked about. 18 Q: Okay. So, do I take it from that, 19 that that was an option that was left with the Military? 20 A: It was an option that I presented 21 that's -- for them, yes. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And I think we also had discussion 24 that John Carson, if he wasn't at that meeting, that we 25 had assigned a -- a -- one of our officers, John Carson,


1 and that he if they -- we talked about liaison and 2 Military liaison with -- with the Ontario Provincial 3 Police and we identified John Carson as being the conduit 4 from which the Military people could talk to. 5 Q: All right. And we take it then, sir, 6 that the operational plan that I referred you to at Tab 7 5, exhibit -- again Exhibit number -- pardon me, Inquiry 8 Document number 2002951, that that was amended as a 9 consequence of this meeting with the military officials 10 with Major General Vernon and others? 11 A: I believe that to be so. 12 Q: And there are references, in fact, to 13 the military, if we look at page 3, for example, of that 14 document, under step 1 "develop a liaison with...", the 15 second bullet, "...military officials"? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And those were not present in the 18 initial operational plan? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I'm looking at page 3 of the document 23 at Tab 5, under step 1? 24 A: There -- yes, there appear to be a 25 change in the plan.


1 Q: And if you can go just to the third 2 bullet there, under step 1, part of the operational plan 3 indicates: 4 "Research ownership of land or legal 5 title of control issue." 6 Do you know whether or not that was ever 7 carried out or whose responsibility it would have been to 8 carry out that particular function? 9 A: It would have been John Carson's 10 because my recollection is that having educated myself 11 somewhat to -- to the problem -- to the problems or what 12 the protesters were also protesting about, that I had 13 some concerns. 14 I had some concerns, number 1 when I 15 mentioned about we were talking at one time about Stoney 16 Point with a "Y", another time with an "E" and I'm 17 saying, like, what is the true legalities of that? I 18 think we should pursue that. 19 Under the War Measures Act, as I read the 20 War Measures Act, it said when we no longer need it, we - 21 - it will be returned, and I did not know of what had 22 happened subsequently, and so I did direct John that I 23 wanted some research done in order that we would know for 24 sure where it came from. 25 And when I read the word "chronology"


1 under my purview, I may be going back to the -- the old 2 analytical days that I have, a chronology is important to 3 me and I -- I tend to ask for chronologies a lot, so I 4 have every reason to believe that that was as a result of 5 my direction that I asked for a chronology of events. 6 Q: Okay. And just reflecting for a 7 moment on your -- your testimony a moment ago, you say 8 that you wanted to know the -- and understand the 9 legalities of Stoney Point with an "E" and Stony Point 10 without an "E", those sorts of things. 11 I take it that was legal research that you 12 were requesting? 13 A: Limited legal research. It was being 14 done by an officer, but I basically wanted the 15 documentation so that I could at least look at it or 16 other people could look at it or we could further. 17 To me there were -- there were issues that 18 were not clear cut and I wanted to make sure that we had 19 done as much of our homework as we -- as we could. 20 Again, based on this time that nothing 21 basically had happened other than that the notification. 22 Q: Okay. Did you ever receive a report, 23 sir, as to the work that you had requested, the 24 legalities of this, the research ownership of land as is 25 indicated in the operational plan?


1 A: Not specifically a report dealing 2 with it, but a -- a body of material that I had read that 3 had, for the most part, been composed by, I believe, Ron 4 George from the territory. That was quite -- it'd gone 5 into quite some detail, so we -- we had a file, a base 6 with the file that if I wanted to talk about the 7 legalities, I had read that file and it was -- there were 8 various authors of the material, but that's what had 9 done. 10 But that -- that was in relation to the 11 military base at that time. 12 Q: I -- I understand and given the two 13 (2) different versions we have of the operational plan 14 and your confirmation that they aren't etched in stone, I 15 suppose, they are subject to amendment as new information 16 comes in? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: There -- the operational plan is 19 meant -- is meant to function -- is it meant to function, 20 I should ask you, as a -- as a directive or as more as a 21 guide or something else? 22 A: Guide. 23 Q: All right. And you indicated that 24 the operational plan, at least the initial one we 25 observed and looked at was approved by Superintendent


1 Wall? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And you would have been familiar with 4 it? You have or did you have any approval requirement or 5 authority at that point in time? 6 A: No, the incident commander was seized 7 with doing the operational plan. The operational plan is 8 then given to, basically, his supervisor, which in this 9 case was Superintendent Wall or if Superintendent Wall 10 was not there, then -- then I would have reviewed it. 11 Q: Okay. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I'd ask 13 that that operational plan, amended date June 2nd of 14 1993, Inquiry Document Number 2002951 be made the next 15 exhibit, I believe that to be 2 -- pardon me -- 555? 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, that is P-555, 17 Your Honour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-555: Document number 2002951 OPP 21 number 1 District Operational 22 Plan, occupation of CFB 23 Ipperwash, Revised June 24 02/93. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: So you just stay with that for a 3 moment, I had you looking at page 3, you -- we were 4 speaking about the research direction that you had 5 provided and if we go down just two (2) bullets below 6 that: 7 "Developed intelligence information on 8 other groups attending." 9 I take it that that's the intelligence 10 component that is built into the plan? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And there is no assignment of 13 personnel at this point. Do you know when that might 14 occur? 15 A: No, sir, not specifically. 16 Q: Or, who might be responsible for 17 assigning personnel to the various functions that are 18 outlined? 19 A: It would be the incident commander 20 who would be responsible for implementing the plan and if 21 it required intelligence officers, et cetera, then he 22 would -- he or she, whatever particular case would be 23 responsible for doing that. 24 Q: And if we refer to page 10 of that 25 document, sir, right at the -- the last paragraph under


1 the title, "Role of the Military?" 2 It's simply confirmation that you had, 3 together with District Superintendent Wall, met with 4 Major General Vernon and Colonel Boyd on May the 20th? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. If I can refer you to Tab 7 8 in the book of documents in front of you, that is 8 Inquiry Document 2005396, which would appear to be a 9 photocopy of a daily journal, the date of May 20th and 10 21st, 1993? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: If you look at the second page of 13 that, do you recognize that first of all, sir? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: That is your daily journal or a copy 16 of your daily journal? 17 A: It definitely is my writing, sir. 18 Q: All right. And the entry on that is 19 there is a meeting with Inspector John Carson re: 20 something -- 21 A: Concerns at Ipperwash. 22 Q: Concerns at Ipperwash? 23 A: Concerns at Ipperwash, yes, sir. 24 Q: All right. And if we just carry on 25 there, at 1600 hours --


1 A: Meeting with the -- 2 Q: Meeting -- 3 A: -- meeting with Miliary at the RCR 4 barracks in London. 5 Q: And, that's the meeting that you've 6 just -- 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: -- told us something about and that's 9 confirmed in the -- at the end of the operational plan 10 that's now marked as an exhibit? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Did the Military at this meeting 13 suggest or behave as though they might be pulling out at 14 some point in the very near future? 15 A: No, that -- not at the May 20th 16 meeting. I did not get that from them. 17 Q: Was there any suggestions that the 18 Miliary may take a more confrontational approach with 19 respect to the occupiers at that meeting? 20 A: No, sir, they did not reveal what, in 21 fact, they were or were not going to do. 22 Q: Okay. You have no recollection, for 23 example, of some suggestions of what would happen if we 24 threw people over the fence sort of thing? 25 A: I have recollection of general


1 discussion as to if they did take some overt action what 2 the Ontario Provincial Police response would be, as I 3 allude, that we would be there if they put people over 4 the fence, et cetera, to stop the breach of the peace of 5 the people going back in; that -- that would get us 6 involved for sure. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Those type of -- but nobody being 9 specific. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: It was just a scenario-type of review 12 of possible scenarios, et cetera, in my talking about the 13 injunction. 14 Q: Okay. I had asked you earlier 15 whether you recall any discussions along the colour of 16 right type of -- type of discussion; do you recall 17 anything like that today, sir? 18 A: Not exactly. 19 Q: Perhaps any discussions about a 20 theory of clean hands, that sort of thing? 21 Does that assist you at all in refreshing 22 your memory? 23 A: In preparation of either the plan or 24 during the exercise from May the 6th on, and when I was 25 actually reviewing and obviously it came in to my mind


1 that we would consider injunctions, not being that 2 familiar necessarily with injunctions, I called Regional 3 Crown attorney Bruce Long who was in the same building as 4 I was in, In fact just down the hall. 5 And I think I dropped into to see the 6 Regional Crown, basically to ask him to bring me a little 7 up to speed, as far as injunctions and he was the person 8 who told me about the doctrine of clean hands. That's 9 all basically I say, that basically there is a doctrine 10 that says when you come with an injunction, both parties 11 have to be honest and forthright and responsible for 12 those actions. 13 And I do recall, maybe a little education 14 is a dangerous thing, but I do recall mentioned in this 15 doctrine to the Military. 16 Q: All right. Was that in response, 17 sir, to their request or their inquiry as to what the OPP 18 would do in order to keep the peace, or perhaps to 19 enforce what they perceived to be their rights with 20 respect to the Base? 21 A: I believe it was -- I was the one who 22 raised the point that why wouldn't you get an injunction; 23 that's usually the way that it's done. So I -- I believe 24 it was -- it wasn't for the Military to tell me. I was 25 suggesting to the Military that it was a possible avenue


1 that they might consider pursuing. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: If I can, I'm just noticing on -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- May 21st, you asked me previously 6 in my testimony if I remembered seeing the document? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: The -- and I see that in my notes 9 that I say that: 10 "Meeting with John Carson, Ipperwash 11 contingency plan reviewed." 12 So, I do have reason to believe that I did 13 read that document. 14 Q: On the 21st of May? 15 A: On the 21st of May, the initial one, 16 yes. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Which subsequently became revised at 19 least twice. 20 Q: And the next notation, if we're 21 staying with that page, on the 21st of May, is the 22 assignment of Bill Watkins to assist Inspector Carson. 23 A: Exactly. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the next 2 exhibit. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His diary 4 entries? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-556, Your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, 7 there's one that -- there's one that deals with update in 8 July; is that part of the exhibit? 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, July 15th, 1993. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: And that also will be 12 part of this exhibit, Commissioner. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-556: Document Number 2005396 Daily 15 journal of Chief 16 Superintendent Christopher 17 Coles May 20 & 21 and July 18 15/'93. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: Part of the operational plan, sir, 22 there is a call-out procedure that is developed, it's 23 prescribed within that particular plan. 24 It sets out the steps for calling out 25 personnel and the resources that might be required, are


1 necessary to execute the plan? 2 A: Usually, yes. 3 Q: All right. And the personnel who are 4 to be notified, I gather that is what the callout plan 5 refers to? 6 A: Usually, yes, sir. 7 Q: If I turn you to -- to Tab 7, it's 8 Inquiry Document 2002952. It's a document entitled 9 Callout Procedure. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And in quotations: 12 "First Nations occupation of Camp 13 Ipperwash." 14 It then goes out simply to set out a 15 number of personnel that are to be notified. And you are 16 to be notified together with Superintendent Tom Wall. 17 A: And Superintendent Tom Randall. 18 Q: I follow you there. 19 A: Superintendent Randall -- again, if I 20 can, this is -- we were talking, the division which 21 Superintendent Randall was the District Superintendent at 22 this time, of Number 1 District, so we're talking the 23 division, the -- the "A" division. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: And so as much as Tom Wall is also in


1 my office, Superintendent Wall -- Superintendent Randall 2 was still in 1 District and so he was also to be notified 3 at the same time. 4 Q: I thank you for that sir, and we took 5 a little bit of time to try to explain the configuration 6 for this purpose, because it does get somewhat -- 7 somewhat confusing. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Perhaps we could mark that as the 13 next exhibit, as well? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-557, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 557. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-557: Document Number 2002952, 18 Callout procedure of OPP re 19 "First Nation's Occupation of 20 Camp Ipperwash" July 08/'93. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: And just on that call-out procedure, 24 sir, when was that -- what was the trigger for that? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: You're saying what was the trigger? 4 Q: When would -- when would -- when 5 would those persons listed be notified? 6 A: If and when the Incident Commander 7 decided that the plan was going to be put into place. 8 Q: Okay. All right. Part of the plan, 9 as we noted earlier, there was an intelligence component 10 to that. There was decisions taken to conduct 11 surveillance on the base in June of 1993. 12 Are you aware of that, sir, as part of the 13 operational plan? 14 A: Not specifically aware. 15 Q: And whose decision would that be to - 16 - to employ the surveillance? 17 A: John Carson as being the incident 18 commander. 19 Q: All right. Sir, at Tab 15, which is 20 Inquiry Document 2002627, it is a fax to provincial Field 21 Commander. Field -- and I note that you were copied on 22 that as Chief Superintendent of Field A. 23 Your name is not on that, but that's 24 certainly your title? 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: All right. And it's regarding native 2 land claims at Ipperwash -- pardon me, dated June 15th of 3 1993. 4 First of all, in -- by reference to your 5 own personal diary, can you tell us whether or not you 6 were on duty at that point in time? 7 A: I don't have my '93 diary with me, 8 but I'm sure it's in the notes somewhere. I believe it 9 is, if you could help me. 10 Q: At Tab 16. 11 A: Thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Oh, pardon me, that is 19 -- that's 16 1995 -- 17 A: That's '95. 18 Q: I'm sorry. I'm going to suggest to 19 you, sir, that you were on annual leave from June 10th to 20 June 20th of 1993. 21 A: I believe you, sir. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: If I had my '93 diary I could tell 24 you for sure. 25 Q: But in that --


1 MR. MARK SANDLER: We should just 2 indicate he actually has, in addition to the excerpts, 3 he's got the '93 diary in his car if it's needed but -- 4 THE WITNESS: If I need it I could -- 5 MR. MARK SANDLER: We had checked that 6 entry before and he was on annual leave and... 7 MR. DONALD WORME: And I'm satisfied with 8 that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: This particular document, sir, it 13 encloses a letter from Superintendent -- Acting Staff 14 Sergeant Beacock describing a meeting with the Bosanquet 15 Township officials. 16 They were expressing concerns about the 17 occupation of Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash. Township 18 officials reported that Maynard and Carl George had 19 attended the Township offices on June the 14th and I 20 quote: 21 "With large maps indicating land claims 22 from Ravenswood Road east to Parkhill 23 and north to Goderich, with the 24 exception of the village of Grand 25 Bend."


1 Do you recall, sir, whether once you 2 returned to duty, following the 20th of June, whether you 3 became aware of this or -- or was that handled by someone 4 in your stead? 5 A: I suggest it's -- it's never been 6 handled. I -- I -- I do recall that when I came back 7 that I was -- I was made aware that First Nations people 8 had -- had made some -- were making claims to a larger 9 area, so I -- I was aware of that, yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. And were you aware of the 11 -- of the concerns that were being expressed now by the 12 various township officials? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: It would appear, as well, that there 15 were come concerns regarding an upcoming visit of then- 16 Minister Hampton to the Pinery, that there was some 17 concern about the potential of a demonstration occurring? 18 A: Yes, I recall that. 19 Q: All right. I also understand, sir, 20 that you might have been preoccupied and I'm not sure if 21 that's the word, but there were other situations that 22 were going on in the province at the time that might have 23 had some of your attention? 24 A: I have my diary, I could -- I could 25 help you.


1 Q: Perhaps I can come back to this 2 question later on, Mr. Coles? What we will do is during 3 the lunch break you will -- 4 A: I will bring my diary. 5 Q: -- you will obtain your diaries and 6 then you'll have those documents in front of you? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Pardon me for the delay, if I can 9 just get a moment, Commissioner. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Sir, on -- on June the 23rd of 1993, 14 we have an exhibit that's marked as P-397, it's Inquiry 15 Document Number -- perhaps this is not the Inquiry 16 document. 17 Now, I should simply say it's Inquiry 18 Exhibit P-397, which were handwritten notes of John 19 Carson and in that he describes a telephone conversation 20 that he had with you at 4:05 p.m. updating you on a 21 meeting that he had with the Ministry of Natural 22 Resources together with Major Howell regarding a gun 23 incident. 24 Do you recall this -- this conversation 25 that you might have had with then-Inspector Carson?


1 A: Not the specific conversation, sir, I 2 don't. 3 Q: Okay. And, as I understand it, sir, 4 that in terms of this discussion, and perhaps just to try 5 to assist you in your recollection of that, there was 6 discussion about the obtaining of a warrant -- pardon me, 7 an injunction at that -- at that point? 8 A: I haven't seen John Carson's notes so 9 I -- I don't know. 10 Q: All right. He goes on to advise that 11 you had recommended to him that you contact Maynard 12 George in an effort to dispel the rumours, to tell them 13 that he'll be warned in regards to an injunction? 14 A: I have John Carson's handwritten 15 notes in front of me, could you direct me to where I 16 should go -- June the...? 17 Q: June 23rd, Tab 3, page 0024697. 18 A: 697? I have it. 19 Q: All right. And I'm interested, 20 specifically, in the direction that it would appear that 21 you had given then-Inspector Carson to contact Maynard 22 George. 23 A: Correct. Again, there's discussion 24 in here about the injunction, but John has taken, I 25 guess, direction from me that I suggest that he did


1 contact Mr. George, Maynard George, to dispel rumours and 2 tell him that if there was an injunction that we would be 3 notifying them just as a matter of course so that -- to 4 resolve -- possibly resolve any problems that might arise 5 with knowledge of an injunction coming down. 6 Q: And up to that point, had the 7 Military indicated one (1) way or another whether they 8 would be obtaining an injunction? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Did you know Maynard George at that 11 time, Maynard T. George? 12 A: Only by -- by reputation. 13 Q: All right. And if we go to page 14 0024700 of that same document, that is Exhibit P-397? 15 A: 24700? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: At 10:15 a.m., I take it? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: It looks as though Inspector Carson, 21 as he then was, attended at your office for a meeting? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: All right. And at that point in 24 time, you then discussed the interface between Mr. Carson 25 and Maynard George?


1 A: Correct. 2 Q: All right. And aside from your 3 agreeing with the approach that was being taken to the -- 4 at that point in time, there was also some discussion 5 about problems regarding the Intelligence Branch; do you 6 see that, sir? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And I take it that that problem was 9 that there was information that was going directly to 10 subordinates, that is to, perhaps, to constables as 11 opposed to the incident commander? 12 A: Correct. It -- it appears to me that 13 the Intelligence Branch of -- of the GHQ were not -- were 14 -- were going to the detachment directly to ask questions 15 and it would have been better if they went through John 16 Carson. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: It was alarming the detachment with 19 my recollection, the people. 20 Q: Did you provide any direction as a 21 consequence of that information coming to you? I suppose 22 the -- the intended question with that, sir, is did you 23 have any responsibility to deal with that issue? Was 24 that within your authority? 25 A: I think I -- I chose to -- to call


1 Inspector Lawrenson to try to see if he could also direct 2 his people -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- to deal with that. 5 Q: To Inspector Lawrenson, you'll help 6 us here? 7 A: Inspector Lawrenson was, I believe, 8 at that time, an inspector in the Intelligence Branch. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: That would be Inspector Harry 11 Lawrenson, there are two (2) Lawrenson's, but Harry 12 Lawrenson. 13 Q: All right. And did that discussion 14 assist in any fashion insofar as dealing with what was 15 perceived to be a problem and what was alarming to the 16 detachment? 17 A: As I read John Carson's note it -- it 18 appears that it's -- there's a clarity, if you will now, 19 that it's directed that John is the incident commander 20 and John was establishing that he wanted to know 21 intelligence information. 22 Q: Okay. So as he notes there, there 23 was a reinforcement of the chain of command? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And that was part of what you were


1 doing in contacting the Intelligence Branch? 2 A: Exactly. 3 Q: All right. Did you see this or did 4 you perceive this to be an issue at that time, serious or 5 otherwise? 6 A: No, sir, just -- just police 7 business. 8 Q: If we go on to page 24702 at 8:10 9 there's a notation of a telephone conversation between 10 then-Inspector Carson and yourself? There was a 11 discussion, it would appear, of Section 41 of the 12 Criminal Code and -- as well as the defence access 13 regulations? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Okay. Now, neither of those avenues 16 were employed. Did you have any -- any input in that 17 respect, sir? 18 A: With a reference to DCARS which 19 you've just referred, I mean, John's notes indication 20 that we discussed Section 41 and DCARS and I have no 21 reason to believe that we didn't. 22 I have no recollection of what DCARS 23 actually is to this day. 24 Q: All right. And if we -- pardon me, 25 one second.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Mr. Sandler has properly pointed out 4 that that date is actually 25th of June. 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. I take it that at that 7 point in time the preference was, according to the notes, 8 a Court Order and there was some expression of a belief 9 on your part? 10 A: Correct. Inspector Carson's note is 11 updated, I believe he's talking about -- I don't know who 12 he's talking about, but I see: 13 Not comfortable [I read his writing] 14 with seeking a Court Order. 15 I don't know if that's -- he's not 16 comfortable or I'm not comfortable. I -- I can't tell 17 you. 18 Q: Yeah, I'm going Im going to 19 suggest that that reads not comfortable with sections of 20 the Criminal Code or the defence regulations. 21 Does that help at all, sir? 22 A: It -- it -- I guess it makes sense if 23 John is saying I asked for legal opinions re. Section 41 24 and Superintendent Walsh to check. I -- yes, sir, that 25 would make sense.


1 Q: Okay. And so the preference, at that 2 point, was to continue with the overall approach that we 3 had started out examining here, and that was to negotiate 4 a solution to do it so on the basis of Court Orders, if 5 there was any action to be taken by the OPP? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: If we go to page 24716, which is a 8 notation dated June 27th, 1993, same exhibit. At 16:00 9 hours there's a report of a conversation with yourself, 10 again. 11 A: Can you give me a page number, 12 please? 13 Q: 0024716. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And the indication there that I'd ask 18 you to speak to, sir, is your approval of Inspector 19 Carson's trip to Toronto with Superintendent Wall? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And do you recall what that was 22 about? Can you tell us anything about that? 23 A: No, that they were -- that I approved 24 that Tom -- that John Carson and Tom Wall were going to 25 go to a military -- a meeting with the military in


1 Toronto. 2 I mean, I would say, obviously, because 3 John was involved, pertaining to Ipperwash military base. 4 Q: Okay. And if I can refer you on to 5 page 24727, further in, Inspector Carson, as he then was, 6 in his handwritten notes. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: At Tab 4. 11 A: Tab 4, sorry. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: 24727? 24727? 16 Q: Yes, sir. 17 A: I have it. Your question, please? 18 Q: And there's a handwritten note about 19 a call that morning with yourself that you've -- the 20 military seemed anxious to resolve; do you see that? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes, sir, I do. 25 Q: And for -- just further on, I take it


1 that the reference to your being updated on conversations 2 with Colonel Wells, that was the meeting that was 3 attended by Inspector Carson and Superintendent Wall? 4 A: If I read that that's a -- if it's - 5 I think it's 13:10 hours: 6 "At 10:21 to Inspector Turner. Updated 7 re Colonel Wells." 8 That's John Carson talking to Inspector 9 Turner who was an inspector of the 1 district. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: He's just keeping Inspector Turner in 12 the loop, so to speak. 13 Q: All right. You would have received 14 the same briefing? 15 A: It says at the top of the page 923, 16 10:21, I think it's from Chief Superintendent Driscoll 17 and I believe it does say updated. Yes, it does. I was 18 updated, yes. 19 Q: All right. And if you just go on 20 with that, there was some discussion about what the 21 options were. Again some of the same options that you 22 had already spoken to. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And I take it no decision was made, 25 following that meeting?


1 A: No, sir. 2 Q: And if we go just further onto -- on 3 the page at 13:20 hours, you were again spoken to and 4 advised that there was a letter to be delivered to 5 Commissioner O'Grady on that date, being July 2nd of '93? 6 A: Correct. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 8 Commissioner, I wonder if this might be an 9 appropriate place to stop. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Want to 11 adjourn now for lunch? Is that all right? 12 We'll adjourn now for lunch then. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 14 adjourned until 2:15 p.m. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 1:16 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 afternoon. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, Mr.


1 Coles. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: Just before the break, Mr. Coles, I 5 had referred you to the notes of then-Inspector Carson in 6 relation to the meeting that was had with Major General 7 Vernon. 8 And I want to refer you now to Tab 17 of 9 the Book of Documents before you. It is marked in this 10 Inquiry as Exhibit P-402. Now, I note that that 11 particular document was not copied to you, and it is a 12 document that thanks the Commissioner for the support of 13 the OPP with respect to the occupation of the base. 14 It references the attendance of Carson and 15 Wall at the meeting of June 28th with DND staff. It goes 16 onto cite a common goal of obtaining a peaceful solution 17 to the occupation. And states that if a threat to 18 personnel or property, it may be necessary to evict 19 occupiers as provided for under the Defence Control 20 Access Area Regulations; DCAAR I think you had referred 21 to it by its acronym. 22 And it states that if an order for 23 eviction was issued under DCAAR then there would be 24 removal by a joint force of Federal and OPP forces. 25 Do you -- were you aware first of all of


1 this particular letter? 2 A: No, not at the time. It may have 3 been sent -- it probably was sent through by the 4 Commission. If it referred to our people who had 5 probably got a copy. 6 But I don't recall that -- 7 Q: But, that's certainly confirmation of 8 the things you had just finished testifying on. 9 A: Their -- their attendance, yes. 10 Q: All right. And as noted earlier 11 there was some, I don't want to be seen to be putting 12 words in your mouth, but you had preferred, if I can put 13 it that way, a Court injunction as opposed to an Order 14 under the Defence Regulations? Would that be fair? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Or did you have a preference? 17 A: Well in my recollection from my last 18 conversation with Major General Vernon, my only 19 conversation with Major General Vernon, that there was a 20 discussion that if they basically used force to evict the 21 occupiers at the Military Base outside, then, in fact, 22 the Ontario Provincial Police would respond to stop a 23 breach of the peace should the occupiers decide to go 24 back in. 25 Not knowing what the order would have


1 been, I don't know whether or not they could direct the 2 Ontario Provincial Police, or that order would direct the 3 Ontario Provincial Police under the Federal legislation. 4 I'm not aware of that. 5 My position is, if the Military chose to 6 take action, then it would be our position -- my position 7 from the Ontario Provincial Police that we would go to 8 stop further breaches of the peace. 9 Q: Of course, in the occupation -- 10 operational plan, P-555, that is the amended one of June 11 28th, one (1) of the items to be researched, and I'm -- 12 I'm referring to page 3 -- 13 A: What Tab? 14 Q: -- the fourth bullet under step 1, 15 Tab 1. There's a reference in that operational plan to 16 research legal resource issues including Federal 17 legislation and I take it that's what you're referring 18 to, sir? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you know whether or not that was 21 ever resolved or was there a need to resolve it; that -- 22 that is to say whether or not the Federal regulations 23 could order the OPP to carry out a specific function, 24 i.e., effect an eviction? 25 A: I have no knowledge of that, the


1 direction was for -- to John Carson, so maybe John -- 2 John Carson had researched it. 3 Q: At Tab 8, sir, which has been marked 4 as P-556, that is your daily journal notes, at page 4 5 under the July 15th date, there's a notation there that 6 you would speak to Inspector Turner, perhaps I'll let you 7 read that? 8 A: "Speak to Inspector Turner re: 9 Ipperwash situation and future contact 10 with Mayor Fred Thomas." 11 Q: Okay. Do you have any recollection, 12 sir, what that was about, first of all with respect to 13 Inspector Turner? 14 A: Not specifically. 15 Q: And, future contact with Mayor 16 Thomas; do you have any recollection about what that 17 might be? 18 A: Well, Mayor Fred Thomas was the mayor 19 of Bosanquet Township at that time, but I cannot be 20 specific as to what that particular notation means. 21 Q: Did you have occasion at any point 22 during your -- during the time that you had been involved 23 in the Ipperwash matter, had you ever been to the Army 24 Camp area? 25 A: Yes. Yes, I had, not into the Army


1 Camp, but in that I attended. And I can remember being 2 given a tour of the Army Camp Road and East Parkway to 3 familiarize myself with where the territory started and 4 finished and where the cottages were. 5 And so I did attend at one (1) time and I 6 -- I -- I could probably find the date, but I know it was 7 around this time I was familiarizing myself, and I can 8 remember Steve McDonald was the person who drove me 9 around. He's now -- 10 Q: I'm sorry, who drove you? 11 A: Sergeant Steve McDonald. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And, do you recall if, at the time of 16 that tour, as you put it, were there people in occupation 17 of the Army Base at that point? 18 A: I think it was prior to that. It was 19 prior. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I can't give you a specific date. 24 Q: Do -- 25 A: Or, if in fact, there were people in


1 at the Military Base at that time. 2 Q: You don't recall whether -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- there were people -- 5 A: No, no I don't. 6 Q: -- in occupation? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: All right. Do you have any 9 recollection, sir, of seeing any camps that were put up, 10 perhaps by occupiers, on the Army Base in the range area, 11 specifically? 12 A: Only recollection I -- that I 13 remember was driving on 21 Highway and seeing, I believe, 14 a trailer and a small cabin that had been erected or 15 brought in. 16 Q: And we know from other testimony that 17 the occupation of the range of the Army Camp occurred on 18 or about May 6th of 1993, and so can we assume that this 19 was some time after that? 20 A: I can't be definitive on that for 21 sure. 22 Q: You're familiar, sir, with the London 23 Joint Forces operation? 24 A: Yes, sir, I am. 25 Q: And had you any involvement of the


1 establishment of that JFO regarding Ipperwash? 2 A: No, that was a longstanding joint 3 force operation that gone -- had gone back many years. 4 In fact, I can remember it started out with two (2) 5 offices back in the early '70's -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- and it was a -- it was a kind of 8 an ongoing intelligence operation between the London City 9 Force and the Ontario Provincial Police and sometimes 10 there would be RCMP officers involved in that... 11 Q: I take it, it wasn't established in 12 connection to Ipperwash, but Ipperwash became one of its 13 component files? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: All right. And do you know what the 16 function of that JFO was? What it is that they did, who 17 the operational personnel might be and what they were 18 involved in? 19 A: At what time? 20 Q: Well, let's -- in 1995. 21 A: In '95 I believe that there was -- I 22 forget his rank. I think it was Sergeant Don Bell at the 23 time. And there was a gentleman by the name of James 24 Pinneger that I'm aware of. There may have been others 25 but I don't know.


1 Q: All right. Jim Hutchinson? 2 A: Well, no, James Hutchinson was an 3 inspector. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: He had been -- after Tom Wall left, 6 Inspector Hutchinson filled in as Superintendent Wall's 7 replacement when Tom Wall retired. He was a member of 8 the criminal investigation branch that was seconded to me 9 and then stayed with the criminal investigation branch 10 out of London. 11 Q: And who was Inspector Tom Hall 12 responsible to report to? 13 A: Inspector? 14 Q: Tom Hall, is that the name you were 15 just mentioning, sir? 16 A: No, I said Inspector James 17 Hutchinson. 18 Q: Pardon me. Did he have any reporting 19 function to you? 20 A: He had a reporting function to me 21 after Tom Wall left. He -- as Tom Wall was a 22 superintendent and before the -- the reorganization 23 finalised in June of that -- I'm suggesting June of that 24 year, he filled in, I think, for some six (6) months as 25 the acting Superintendent of operations.


1 But he was a Inspector with the criminal 2 investigation branch, decentralized to London for years, 3 and then after the reorganization and Tony Parkin and 4 Superintendent Baronski came down, then he went back to 5 the criminal investigation branch and, in fact, was the 6 criminal -- the lead criminal investigator for the 7 Ipperwash incident. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: The intelligence people would report 10 their findings up through Inspector Hutchinson. 11 Q: Okay. And where was he located? 12 A: They have offices in London but he -- 13 he actually also had offices at -- at my headquarters. 14 My -- we were at 150 Dufferin at that time. 15 Q: Do you know whether or not the -- 16 this JFO you've described was jointly between the OPP, 17 the RCMP, London Police? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Do you know whether or not Military 20 Intelligence had any participation in this operation? 21 A: I don't think so. 22 Q: I want to turn to an event that has 23 been described as an alleged helicopter shooting. It 24 occurred in August of 1993. I'll refer you to Tab Number 25 9; that's Inquiry Document Number 2002494, and that is P-


1 406, Exhibit P-406. 2 That is a letter, sir, addressed to the 3 Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police under the 4 hand of J. F. Carson, Inspector. And I note again that 5 you are not copied on this, but were you familiar either 6 with this letter or the contents that are reported 7 therein? 8 A: Definitely familiar with the 9 contents. I was on annual leave the date that this 10 report was written in August. But I am familiar with the 11 -- the fact that a helicopter was shot at when I returned 12 from annual leave, I was brought up to speed on it. 13 Q: And the Criminal Investigation Branch 14 was involved as -- as the main investigator? 15 A: Exactly, yes. 16 Q: And do you know what personnel were 17 involved in that investigation; If you're aware? 18 A: I believe that the -- the Criminal 19 Investigation Branch inspector was Inspector Terry Hall. 20 And Inspector John Carson assisted in that investigation 21 in the search -- the ultimate -- the search warrant that 22 was conducted at the Military Base. 23 Q: And this was obviously before the, 24 I'm not sure how you described it, but the change in 25 organizational structure -- reorganization of the OPP?


1 A: Yes, sir. That was under the old 2 division. 3 Q: And so Inspector Terry Hall would 4 have reported then to Deputy Commissioner Campbell I 5 think you had -- 6 A: No. Inspector Terry Hall, being a 7 member of the Criminal Investigation Branch, would have 8 reported up through the investigation side of the 9 organization. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: Investigation division in '93 12 probably would have reported up to possibly Deputy 13 Commissioner Piers. 14 Q: As I understand, sir, you had 15 returned from leave on the 28th of August, 1993? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And you would have at that point in 18 time been briefed about this -- this Incident? 19 A: Yes, sir. I believe that would have 20 been on August the 30th, being the Monday. 21 Q: Okay. And aside from overseeing the 22 investigation, did you have any direct role in this 23 matter? 24 A: No, sir. But I -- I definitely had 25 interest in it.


1 Q: Okay. And if we look at Tab Number 2 12, that is Inquiry Document Number 2005397. That is a 3 daily journal, a photocopy of a daily journal from 1994, 4 January 25th, and November 16th, that is a copy of your 5 daily journal? 6 A: Yes, sir, it is. 7 Q: And it refers in both of those 8 instances to meetings with John Carson regarding 9 Ipperwash? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: You would have been informed at that 12 point that Inspector Carson had continued to meet with 13 Superintendent Wall throughout that period of time being 14 '93 and '94? 15 A: If I refer to my '94 diary, please? 16 Q: Sure. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: The date of that was November, I 21 believe you said, November 16th? 22 Q: November 16th, yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: You mentioned that it was Tom Wall? 2 I believe at that time Superintendent Wall had retired, 3 and it was, in fact, Inspector Jim Hutchinson who was in 4 his acting capacity. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: During these briefings that you would 9 have had with John Carson, he would have advised you, I'm 10 assuming, of the various and ongoing contacts he had with 11 the Military? 12 A: Sometimes. 13 Q: Okay. He would, for example, from 14 time-to-time, perhaps, receive Incident Reports from the 15 Military, some of which have been filed here in these 16 proceedings? 17 A: He may have received those, yes, sir. 18 He -- 19 Q: And I take it those wouldn't be -- be 20 provided to you, you wouldn't get to see the Military's 21 Incident Reports, for example? 22 A: Not -- not necessarily. There was no 23 need to forward them to me, he was the Incident Commander 24 who was basically reviewing the material so those reports 25 were actually being sent to him for his information.


1 Q: All right. And if he would report to 2 anybody, it would be Superintendent Wall? 3 A: Well, initially Superintendent Wall, 4 or then Acting Superintendent Jim Hutchinson, to his 5 first supervisor. Or, if they were not there, he -- in - 6 - in my telephone conversations, he might refer -- he 7 might also apprise me because I would be filling in for 8 Superintendent Wall. 9 We -- we would not take our -- or 10 Inspection Hutchinson -- we wouldn't take our holidays at 11 the same time so there was always one (1) of us that was 12 in charge of the division. 13 Q: I see. Thank you. And in this 14 particular time period in 1993 to 1994, 1993 15 specifically, there were liaison officers that were 16 assigned in each -- each district, is that -- is that 17 correct? 18 A: I don't understand your question. 19 Q: Were there liaison officers assigned 20 to deal with, for example, the -- the community of Kettle 21 and Stony Point? 22 A: Most detachments do have liaison 23 officers, yes, that would -- would liaise with a -- a 24 First Nation territory. 25 Q: All right. And are you aware that,


1 in fact, Detective -- I may get this wrong, Detective 2 Constable George Speck? 3 A: I knew that he was very familiar with 4 the First Nations territory of Kettle and Stony Point. 5 Q: As well as Mike Hudson and Luke 6 George? 7 A: Mike Hudson, that's right. 8 Q: And do you know that -- that they 9 were liaison officers in the -- in the area? 10 A: I can't specifically say that they 11 had an official type of liaison office, but yes, they 12 would be a liaison officers that Detachment Commanders 13 would have used when dealing with First Nations at Kettle 14 and Stony Point. 15 Q: And again, there'd be no reason for 16 you to know this, you were not -- and didn't have any 17 supervisory control over them? 18 A: I -- no, no. Indirectly they 19 reported to me, but they -- to their first level 20 supervisor, it would be the Detachment Commander that 21 they would report to. 22 Q: And as the Detachment Commander, John 23 Carson might have reported to you other incidents that 24 might -- that would have occurred in the area, for 25 example, issues involving cottagers and the First Nations


1 people in the area? 2 A: Through then Superintendent Wall, and 3 as outlined in the operational plans previously that we 4 talked about, there was the talk of chronology -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: And I -- I asked that a chronology of 7 events be prepared so that, in fact, when we were dealing 8 with -- because there were some problems on the beach, 9 and -- at Ipperwash, and we kept track of all those 10 occurrences, but we kept them in a chronological form. 11 Q: Okay. Were you briefed, for example, 12 that the OPP was dealing with the community policing 13 committee in Bosanquet time -- Township in 1993, at the 14 same time that there was some issues involving access to 15 the beachfront? 16 A: The community policing committee 17 program would have a liaison officer assigned to them. 18 Many times it was the Detachment Commander of the various 19 Detachment force, but not necessarily. It could have 20 been a sergeant or it could have been a constable. 21 And so, yes, that officer would meet with 22 the community policing committee and advise them on 23 policing matters, if -- if they so requested. 24 Q: All right, and do you recall whether 25 at that -- in and around that time that there was any


1 pressure from local politicians, or cottagers for the OPP 2 to act in some particular fashion? 3 A: We're talking -- can you give me a 4 date? 5 Q: Again, we're talking 1993, 1994, and 6 the early part, and specifically about issues arising 7 with respect to beachfronts? 8 A: Yes, there were. 9 Q: And do you recall the nature of the 10 pressure that was being applied? 11 A: I can recall in one (1) situation 12 persons attributed to be First Nations people from Kettle 13 or Stoney, I'm not sure, going to cottages, and basically 14 suggesting that the cottagers did not have right to the 15 property. 16 There was also issues pertaining to what 17 is called the beach road, that's a road that when the 18 lake was lower -- when the lake levels were lower, people 19 would drive along that road, and there was some concerns 20 that some First Nations people had expressed to non- 21 natives that they had no right to be in that particular 22 area. 23 And so those events were documented. 24 Q: I'd asked you about pressure from 25 local politicians. Can you recall anything about that in


1 particular? 2 A: I think as we alluded to with my -- 3 my conversation with Inspector Turner, we were talking 4 about Ipperwash and Mayor Fred Thomas, so yes, I know 5 that there were some concerns from citizens, and I -- I'm 6 assuming that some concerns, as -- from citizens, also 7 from Mayor Fred Thomas and Bosanquet Township. 8 Q: All right. Other than the Mayor, do 9 you recall anybody else that might have, in a 10 representative capacity, been expressing the concerns of 11 constituents? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: Okay. If I can refer you to Tab 10. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: It is a -- an issue note, MSGCS issue 18 note, Minister of Solicitor General and Correctional 19 Service. 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Issue: Policing Bosanquet Township. 22 It's dated June 2nd of 1994 at 10:00 a.m. 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And it describes two (2) ongoing land 25 disputes with First Nations in the Ipperwash area. I


1 take it those two (2) First Nations would be Stoney Point 2 and the CFB Ipperwash? 3 A: Is there -- 4 Q: As well as the Kettle and Stony Point 5 First Nation and West Ipperwash beach as a secondary 6 issue, or a second issue, I should say? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And I understand that you were on 9 leave at that particular time, but do you recall ever 10 reviewing this issue note, or seeing this before, or 11 being informed of it, any of those? 12 A: I have a recollection of the material 13 that's in here, whether or not it was this specific issue 14 note, I don't know. 15 Q: Okay. And if you'll note the -- at 16 the last bullet on that first page, the last sentence 17 speaks to: 18 "Undercover officers patrolled the 19 beach areas to watch for and prevent 20 reoccurrences." 21 You were aware that there was this kind of 22 undercover surveillance going on? 23 A: I was. 24 Q: And that was part of the overall 25 operational plan that we had referred to earlier?


1 A: No, not necessarily. I see the 2 second bullet point in the summary on Victoria Day 3 weekend, there was a one (1) night crime spree that may 4 well have been just the detachment crime management 5 members that had taken this upon themselves. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Whether or not John was involved or - 8 - or he had just liaised, and it was decided that 9 undercover offices would be put plainclothes on the 10 beach. 11 Q: All right. We can mark that as the - 12 - as the next exhibit please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-668, Your 14 Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-558: Document Number 2001064 MSGCS 17 Issue Note June 02/'04, 18 Issue: Policing Bosanquet 19 Township from field 20 operations - staff contact 21 Phil Duffield, OPP. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Thank you. Sir, you mentioned 25 Detective -- Detective Constable George Speck was well


1 known in the area. He knew the area well? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: As -- as a field intelligence 4 officer? 5 A: I'm not sure what if he had the 6 intelligence liaison, but he definitely was an officer 7 who had knowledge of that area and was in the crime 8 management plan. And -- and it would make sense to me 9 that at one time he would be consulted as far as 10 intelligence in the area, yes. 11 Q: All right. And in June and July of 12 1995 either yourself of Superintendent Wall would have 13 received reports directly from Detective Constable George 14 Speck suggesting that the situation at Camp Ipperwash was 15 intensifying. 16 Can you recall that kind of a briefing? 17 A: I know of such a report, yes. 18 Q: All right. In fact if I refer you to 19 Tab 14, Inquiry Document 2001361, I see that -- that the 20 Superintendent Number 1 VHQ Chatham is copied on that. 21 Would that be you? 22 A: No, sir. I believe at that time 23 that -- 24 Q: It would have be directed to you as 25 Field 'A' Division, Chief Superintendent?


1 Oh pardon me, I do see your name there, 2 Chief Superintendent C. J. Coles. 3 A: That's right. It's not normal that 4 necessarily that a detective constable would write 5 directly to me. And you see the carbon -- unless someone 6 had asked for it. 7 Or if Mr. Speck had just -- because at 8 that time on the 13th of June, that's when the 9 reorganization was in flux and who the superintendent at 10 One District at Chatham was at that time, whether or not 11 it was Randall or not, I'm not sure. I can try to find 12 out for you. 13 But somewhere he was asked to provide, as 14 I see it, the information that what -- what he had 15 gleaned. 16 Q: And some of the information that he 17 had gleaned is contained in this letter. And he reports 18 that Chief Carl George had been removed from Stoney Point 19 and that Glenn George had taken over the leadership. 20 Do you see that there? 21 A: Yes, sir, I do. 22 Q: Okay. He characterizes Glenn George 23 as a militant open to outside influences, such as the 24 Warrior Society. 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: Okay. And those were -- first of all 2 with respect to the Warrior Society, I take it that's 3 something that you were familiar with? 4 A: As a result of Akwesasne I was, yes, 5 sir. 6 Q: And this letter also cites Captain 7 Howse's report that the Military had moved most of its 8 property off the Base and that the occupiers were aware 9 of this and that there was some likelihood that the 10 barracks might be taken over. 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Okay. And there's a report dated 13 June the 12th, 1995, from Captain Howse who was the 14 officer in command at Camp Ipperwash; do you see that? 15 A: The next one? Yes. 16 Q: Attached -- attached to that? As a 17 result of getting this information, did you take any 18 active steps to either direct Inspector Carson as -- as 19 the incident commander to do anything to -- to prepare 20 himself or to prepare that detachment? 21 A: Not specifically. 22 Q: Okay. Perhaps we can mark that as 23 the next exhibit, please? 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-559, Your Honour. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-559.


1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-559: Document Number 2001361, Fax 2 From Det. Cont. G.M. Speck, 3 Att. Chief Supt. C.J. Coles, 4 June 13/'95 re: C.F.B. 5 Ipperwash. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: In the 4th and 5th paragraphs of 9 Detective Constable Speck's letter - sorry, did I jump 10 away from there? Can you just go back two (2) pages? 11 There's an indication that both the Kettle 12 Point and Stoney Point councils are against the Federal 13 government doing this study and he's referring to the 14 environmental study of the Base, which is in the previous 15 paragraph. 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: I guess the question that I -- that I 18 simply want to ask, it looks like there are two (2) 19 different councils, Kettle Point and Stoney Point 20 council, is that what you were given to understand or 21 were you aware that there was this division; I think you 22 might have mentioned earlier that there was some 23 awareness on your part? 24 A: Well, I would say that George Speck 25 believes that there are.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If I can just move on, on the 20th of 4 June, 1995, you attended a meeting at 2 District with 5 respect to the Ipperwash matter with Inspector Carson? 6 A: My notes don't specifically say John 7 Carson, but I do believe that it was John Carson that I - 8 - we had the meeting. 9 Q: Okay. Do you have a notation of 10 attending that meeting? 11 A: My notes on June the 20th/94 12 suggested a meeting 2 District re: Ipperwash. I have 13 every reason to believe that's John Carson. 14 Q: 1994, did you say? 15 A: Sorry, that's '95. 16 Q: Yes. All right. 17 A: Was that the date you were inquiring 18 about, sir? 19 Q: Yes, it is, and if I refer you to 20 Tab 16, is that -- is that a photocopy of the book that 21 you had just referred to, the diary you just referred -- 22 to which you just referred? 23 A: Yes, sir, it is. 24 Q: And can you recall, sir, what the 25 nature of that meeting was about on the 20th of June,


1 1995? 2 A: Specifically, no, sir. 3 Q: All right. Can you recall who else 4 might have attended that meeting? 5 A: Not in my notes, sir. 6 Q: Sir, Mr. Carson testified here and we 7 have his -- his notes, they are Exhibit P-410. 8 A: What's the tab number? 9 Q: Tab Number 1 at page 24554. 10 A: 24...? 11 Q: 554. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Sorry, is that Exhibit P-410? 16 A: Oh, I see. All right. 17 Q: And that page again, 24554, at Tab 1. 18 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 19 Q: If you just take a moment to read 20 through that, Inspector Carson reports a meeting that you 21 were in attendance at, together with Superintendent 22 Parkin, Superintendent Baronski, Inspector Hutchinson, 23 Inspector Linton, Inspector Martin, updating on 24 Ipperwash. 25 A: Detective Sergeant Wright and Staff


1 Sergeant Bouwman, yes, sir. 2 Q: Okay. And you are indicated as 3 having raised an issue of an update from or to Mr. 4 Beaubien? 5 A: It appears that -- it appears that 6 way, yes, sir. 7 Q: Did you know Mr. Beaubien at the 8 time? 9 A: No, sir, just -- just by name. 10 Q: Okay. And do you know what the 11 update was in relation to or does that assist you at all, 12 looking at those notes? 13 A: No. Other than the fact it appears 14 that I'm saying that Marcel Beaubien should be updated; 15 that he -- it was -- he was the Member of Parliament for 16 that area and maybe in the discussions it came up that he 17 had some concerns but I just say it's an update to him. 18 Q: Okay. Now you just said, "Member of 19 Parliament," was he not a member of the Provincial 20 Legislature? 21 A: Excuse me, more specifically a Member 22 of the Provincial Parliament, yes. 23 Q: Okay, right. And again, I'm sorry, 24 seeing that, does that assist you in terms of what that 25 meeting was about?


1 A: I think it's an update of all the 2 command staff at that time, so we're bringing -- again, 3 given the date of it, Baronski and Superintendent Parkin 4 were -- were newly members to the now region, if you 5 will, and it appears that that's the first meeting that 6 everybody is kind of coming up to speed. 7 I see that John talks about a review of 8 the history, intelligence updates, Military exit, 9 criminal ones, and that would be because Superintendent 10 Baronski would not have been aware at this time, and 11 neither would Superintendent Parkin, so I think it was a 12 matter of that's an issue that, as we start the new 13 region, that's an issue that we should address. 14 And I do know, based upon this date and 15 the date of George Speck's memo, when Glen George is 16 first mentioned, that -- that when -- when Mr. Glen 17 George became involved, things kind of escalated. 18 Q: And did you know Glen George? 19 A: No, I didn't. When I asked questions 20 about this Mr. Glen George, anyone I ever spoke to about 21 Glen George always said that when Mr. Glen George was a 22 young man, he was of a -- of a great personality. 23 So that's the only knowledge I have of 24 Glen George other than meeting him later on after the -- 25 after the events at Ipperwash in the negotiations that I


1 took. That's the first time that I ever personally met 2 Mr. Glen George. 3 Q: And do you recall, sir, receiving a 4 report in July of 1995 concerning an interaction between 5 Glen George and certain members of the Military? 6 A: Yes, sir, I do. 7 Q: And what was that about, if you can 8 recall? 9 A: What I recall is, is that there was - 10 - there was an incident at the Military Base at which Mr. 11 George physically pushed one of the members of the 12 security detail and I believe there were charges that 13 were laid as a result. 14 Q: And if I refer you to Tab 6 of the 15 book of documents in front of you, it is a letter -- four 16 (4) page letter under the hand of Staff Sergeant Bouwman. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: It is copied to you. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: That is Exhibit 402. Do you remember 21 seeing this document? And you'll note that Glenn George 22 is referenced in the -- in the document, certainly in the 23 first paragraph. 24 A: I can't give evidence that -- that I 25 did see that document back then. I've since seen it but


1 I can't say that I did see it back then. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: At that time it could have -- it 4 could have gone to Superintendent Parkin, et cetera. 5 Because he now was in charge of criminal operations for 6 the region. 7 Q: All right. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, Mr. 9 Worme, I missed the reference to the tab number. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What was the 12 tab number of that last note? 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Tab Number 6, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was it 6? 16 I'm not sure -- is that Exhibit -- 17 MR. DONALD WORME: It's an OPP letter to 18 Superintendent re Summary of Incidents Canadian Forces 19 Base Ipperwash. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but you 21 described it also as Exhibit 402. I'm not sure that's 22 right. You can't hear me? My machine's not on? Is this 23 machine not working? Do I have to speak up loud? 24 I have the document but you mentioned an 25 exhibit number. I think you said 4 --


1 MR. DONALD WORME: P-402? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 402? Is 3 that the right number? 4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: When you mentioned, sir, that the 11 advent of Glenn George on the scene, it was your 12 impression and, again, I don't want to misspeak, did you 13 suggest that things began to accelerate or escalate; was 14 that your testimony? 15 A: That is my testimony, yes. 16 Q: All right. And these are the 17 incidents that are reported in this that would you to 18 that; is that -- is that right? 19 A: That's the first time I suggested 20 that there is violence associated with the takeover of 21 the Military Base. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Specifically to -- to an individual. 24 Q: All right. Sir, at Tab 18 there's 25 minutes from the OPP Management Committee of July --


1 meeting of July 4th, 1995, it's Inquiry Document Number 2 200-0310. Right? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: You're -- you're familiar with that? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And you attended at that meeting? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: At page 6 of that document, under the 9 number 20, under the heading Ipperwash. You updated the 10 group evidently on the status of Ipperwash Provincial 11 Park. 12 A: I think you have two (2) -- 13 Q: Oh pardon me. I see the -- I see the 14 error. 15 A: One's December 5th. 16 Q: It has all the same inquiry document. 17 You're quite right. If we refer back to the page 18 previous please. It's numbered at the top. 19 Let me -- let me just go back to the -- 20 let's go back to the beginning. 21 A: All right. 22 Q: That is the minutes of Tuesday, July 23 4th, 1995 of the Management Committee? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: It sets out the individuals who were


1 in attendance at that? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: If we go to the next page -- 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: -- it commences with Number 10, 6 Information and New Business. If we go to the third 7 paragraph: 8 "Chief Superintendent Coles described 9 the generally volatile state of unrest 10 in relation to First Nations 11 territories and policing." 12 Let me just stop there firstly. Do you 13 recall what that update was? What was the volatile state 14 of unrest that you reported on? 15 A: I believe Ipperwash. 16 Q: Okay. In relation to First Nations 17 territories, it would seem to suggest that there were, 18 perhaps, more than -- more than simply Ipperwash on the 19 burner, if I can put it that way? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Do you know what other events might 22 have been occurring at the same time? 23 A: Well -- 24 Q: And perhaps I should let you read the 25 balance of that and --


1 A: No. 2 Q: -- that might be of some assistance. 3 A: I -- I have read them, and it's 4 basically a management committee of July the 4th and it's 5 in the information and new business section and basically 6 they go around the table and say what's going -- you 7 know, what -- what -- what's going on? 8 I chose at that time to, obviously, 9 describe when -- when -- when I read, "volatile state of 10 unrest," in relation to First Nations, I'm not the person 11 who's taking the notes for this, it's the scribe at the 12 time. 13 Q: Fair enough. 14 A: But I would have been relating to 15 Ipperwash. Given my background at Akwesasne, I was still 16 aware of -- of gaming issues and that that were being 17 addressed and it was really a -- a -- my mentioning to 18 management committee that things were starting to 19 percolate, if that's a word that I could use. 20 And I'm putting management committee on 21 notice that we require a clear and concise and current 22 snapshot of what's going on across the province, that I - 23 - I and my counterparts from the other divisions, it 24 would have assisted us and it was assigned to then-Chief 25 Superintendent Boniface and Inspector Nudds of First


1 Nations and contract policing branch to provide that. 2 Basically, I'm saying things are starting 3 to heat up here and I'm putting my contemporaries on 4 notice. 5 Q: And those that were tasked with 6 following up with that, with providing that clear, 7 concise and current snapshot; do you know if that was 8 done? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: On July 2nd of 1995, at the 14 handwritten notes of John Carson, Exhibit P-410, at Tab 15 1, he reports a telephone conversation with yourself, 16 sir. 17 A: Could you give the date and the page, 18 please? 19 Q: Page 24558 Tab 1, July 2nd, 1995. 20 A: Yes, sir, I have it. 21 Q: And, it reads, quote: 22 "We agreed we would suspend the 23 patrols, have some discussion with 24 Chief Tom Bressette, get some opinion 25 from him, attempt to locate Glenn


1 George and arrest. There was some 2 discussion he may be located in a 3 vehicle travelling off the Base. Would 4 make some effort not to provoke a 5 confrontation and we had no intention 6 to do a media release at this time 7 until his arrest has been made." 8 Now, first of all, do you recall that 9 telephone conversation? 10 A: Specifically? No. 11 Q: But this is typically the type of 12 information that might have been provided to you by way 13 of a briefing from Inspector Carson? That is the kind of 14 briefing you would normally get from him? 15 A: Yes. Yes, it is. The reason I'm... 16 Q: Oh, I see. You're looking at your 17 diary to see if you have a notation of that conversation? 18 A: Exactly. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: And to see why it came to me as 21 opposed to -- to -- to Superintendent Parkin. 22 Q: He -- he may have been off and... 23 A: Well, I don't see that -- 24 Q: All right. 25 A: -- that he's off; that doesn't


1 necessarily mean that -- that he is, but -- but yes, it 2 came to me and yes, if I was filling in his position, yes 3 I would have no reason -- I would take that from John and 4 I would -- I would appreciate that call actually coming 5 from John as I see the information that's provided. 6 Q: Okay. So, that briefing that you 7 received from John Carson on the 2nd of July, might that 8 have also been part of -- besides your experience at 9 Akwesasne, the information that you had when you reported 10 on July 4th at the management committee meeting that 11 things were heating up? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: All right. Tab 6, what are we -- 14 excuse me a second. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: All right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And while you report, sir, that 23 things are generally heating up, did you have any 24 particular position with respect to Ipperwash 25 specifically?


1 A: The position was that if the Military 2 took action then we would be there for breach of peace. 3 I was hoping that the Military would seek an injunction. 4 I know that I had a situation, obviously, 5 on the beach. We're talking about suspending patrols, so 6 there was obviously some -- some concern. I think that 7 patrol -- I think that those patrols referred to are the 8 undercover patrols that were previously alluded to. 9 We had undercover officers on the beach 10 and that we were suspending those -- those patrols, the 11 undercover patrols. 12 So, I had a -- basically at that time of 13 the summer, we had the -- the beach situations and still 14 the ongoing Military, and then the change of leadership, 15 if you will, at the Base. 16 So, those were the things that were in my 17 mind as -- as you've taken me through and that I recall. 18 Q: Okay. And on a scale of 1 to 10, how 19 did you regard the situation at Ipperwash, 10 being 20 highly volatile and 10 being, I suppose, not volatile at 21 all? 22 A: Personally, about a 3. 23 Q: Okay. It wasn't high on the radar; 24 is that fair? 25 A: No. We had the one (1) incident


1 where the -- Mr. George had attacked the person at the 2 Military Base. We had the incidents involved in the -- 3 the one night spree as they called it. 4 No, fairly low. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: If I can, in my command at this time, 7 were some twelve hundred (1,200) other police officers 8 doing policing duties, so, I mean, those other things 9 would be percolating in -- at different times and we 10 would be handling those situations and becoming aware of 11 things. 12 Q: Okay. And I think you'd also 13 mentioned, sir, that there were other issues that were 14 also taking up your time, there were other crises, if I 15 can put it that way? 16 A: One of the biggest issues that were 17 taking up my time, at this particular time was, in fact, 18 the reorganization that was going on within the 19 organization and trying to fit the right people into the 20 right places and the downsizing of Detachments and the 21 media that goes along when you say you're going to 22 downsize a Detachment in Ontario and those kinds of 23 situations. 24 Movement of personnel, all those things. 25 Q: All right. At Tab 20, sir, there is


1 a -- a briefing note of the Minister of Solicitor General 2 and Correctional Services. 3 This one is dated July 10th of 1995. 4 First of all, did you see this particular briefing note 5 or do you have any recollection of -- of that note? 6 A: Not that I recall, sir. 7 Q: And I take it you would be aware, 8 however, of the comment -- or the contents of that 9 briefing note and the events that it describes? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the next 12 exhibit, please? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-560, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-560: Document number 2000988 MSGCS 16 Issue Note July 10/95, Issue: 17 Native occupation, Camp 18 Ipperwash; staff contact Phil 19 Duffield OPP. 20 21 THE WITNESS: If I can -- 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Yes, Sir. 25 A: - Mr. Worme, on July the 10th I


1 showed that in my diary that I -- I took what we call a 2 lieu day was taken and then the subsequent. So if that 3 was delayed -- dated on July the 10th, I wouldn't have 4 possibly had had any knowledge, necessarily, of it, until 5 at least the 12th. 6 Q: You were on annual leave? 7 A: Well, no, a lieu day, I think, as I 8 said. 9 Q: A lieu day, pardon me. 10 A: A lieu day taken, sir. 11 Q: At the next tab, sir, Tab 21 an issue 12 note again from the Ministry of Solicitor General and 13 Correctional Services. 14 It says version 2 which was an update of 15 the earlier briefing note of July 10th, previous exhibit. 16 Again, sir, did you see this or do you 17 recall seeing this briefing note and, secondly, are you 18 aware of the contents of that briefing note or issue 19 note? 20 A: Do you mind if I take some time to 21 read the document? 22 Q: Please do. 23 A: Thank you. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: Yes, I -- 2 Q: I'm sorry? 3 A: Yes, I am aware of the material in 4 it. That particular note appears to me that it is an 5 update to the Commissioner's office by then Inspector 6 Dale Linton. And it -- I would assume that it is from 7 the -- the original briefing note. This is an update to 8 that. 9 And what they have done is, they have 10 asked Inspector Linton to provide more information so 11 that they could keep those notes -- 12 Q: Current? 13 A: -- current as -- as they wanted and 14 that's what done. 15 Q: Okay. If we can have that marked as 16 an exhibit please? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-561, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-561: Document number 2000987 MSGCS 20 Issue Note July 12/95 (update 21 of Briefing Note July 10/95), 22 Issue: acquisition of Camp 23 Ipperwash by Kettle/Stony 24 Band: staff contact: 25 Inspector Dale Linton OPP.


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Was it within the contemplation of 3 the Ontario Provincial Police that the Military might 4 simply vacate the Base and, if so, were there any 5 contingency plans made? 6 A: From that issue she -- it -- we are 7 being aware that Military sources indicate that a total 8 withdrawal of Military personnel should take place within 9 the month. 10 Given the liaison that we had ongoing with 11 John Carson and the Military and I think at that time 12 Matt Campbell the -- Colonel Campbell from the Base. If 13 they were going to leave, I was of the opinion that -- 14 that we would be notified. 15 Q: All right. And were there any 16 arrangements as to what form of policing might take place 17 with respect to that territory, should they leave? 18 A: Subsequently there -- there were. I 19 can recall some -- as to how it would be policed, et 20 cetera. You know, would First Nations policing, would 21 they want to take it over, how it would be run, who would 22 it be turned to? Those type of things. 23 But at that time -- still at this time 24 we're talking here July 10th, the Military is still in at 25 the Base.


1 Q: All right. You indicated that one of 2 the discussions was that First Nations policing may take 3 over? 4 A: It -- it was an option that was in my 5 mind. 6 Q: All right. And do you know whether 7 or not how far that option went in terms of the 8 discussion? Do you have any recollection of that? 9 A: Not -- not at that time. I don't 10 think it was a discussion. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: At that point in time, sir, apart 15 from what you had earlier indicated, were you aware of 16 any assertions on the part of those people and occupation 17 of the Base, that they comprised a separate First Nation? 18 A: The best answer I can give is, I 19 don't know. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Speak -- speaking at this time, I 22 don't know. 23 Q: I understand. 24 A: My recollection is in some of the 25 material that I mentioned. Initial material that we had


1 obtained in -- in our education period that Constable 2 Watkins, something tells me in that material there is -- 3 there is some claim that a possibility of being a 4 separate First Nation, yes. 5 Q: All right. And can you tell us, sir, 6 what detachment was responsible for the day to day 7 policing in the area around CFB Ipperwash? 8 A: Forest for the most -- the time 9 period that we're talking about -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- is basically Forest. And then 12 with reorganizations, et cetera, Grand Bend. But -- but 13 Forest I -- I -- 14 Q: And that would explain the 15 involvement of Staff Sergeant Bouwman? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: As I understand he was in charge of 18 the Grand Bend Detachment? 19 A: Yes, sir, he was. 20 Q: All right. And, do you know the 21 extent of Staff Sergeant Barman -- Bouwman's involvement 22 in the policing of that area? What was his job? 23 A: He was a staff sergeant in charge of 24 Grand Bend detachment when these incidents are starting 25 to occur. We've now put an incident commander, John


1 Carson, involved. John had been and I think was a 2 resident of Forest. Bouwman is also involved as far as 3 the reorganization activities at that time and he has a 4 new detachment. Grand Bend detachment had been -- within 5 a year or so, had been completed. 6 And I always felt somewhat concerned that 7 Staff Sergeant Bouwman was kind of thrust into this 8 situation many times, having to respond as the detachment 9 commander. There's also an incident commander that we, 10 the division, have assigned. 11 So, it makes it a difficult position for a 12 staff sergeant. Who does he report to, basically? 13 I think it was quite clear that the chain 14 of command, he -- he could report up to, later on, to 15 Superintendent Parkin or Baronski, for an administrator. 16 But I do know that many times, because 17 those incidents took place on the beaches, et cetera, 18 that Staff Sergeant Bouwman was the person who was 19 assigned to do things and have people -- and it was a 20 tough position, honestly. 21 Q: And, he was also assigned because he 22 knew the area in the same fashion that you've reported 23 George Speck was -- 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: -- familiar with the area?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And, he was -- he had some 3 relationship with the people that were in occupation and 4 I'm not aware -- I know he had a good -- he had a working 5 knowledge of -- of the area. I'm not -- I'm not sure 6 what his previous detachments had been, but I understand 7 he was a -- what I would call a 1 District person. He'd 8 been in that area. 9 Q: All right. And, if you look at your 10 -- at your daytimers on July -- from July 29th, 1995... 11 A: Yes, sir? 12 Q: Am I correct in saying that it should 13 show you to be on annual leave? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: From July 29th, until August the 16th 16 of '95? 17 A: Yes, sir. The -- the first part it 18 shows -- my diary shows what they call, MCO, that's 19 management compensation. You were given a week's leave 20 from -- for -- for management compensation, no overtime, 21 et cetera. 22 So I took that week off and then I 23 extended that into my annual leave, returning on the 17th 24 of August. And, Superintendent Parkin was -- would have 25 been in charge in my absence.


1 Q: All right. At this point in time, 2 just going back to -- to one (1) of the first areas you 3 testified on, you were to retire at the end of -- at the 4 end of June the following year? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: So, by this point in time, by July 7 29th of '95, you had less than a year yet to serve and 8 you knew you that you were going to be going off duty? 9 A: I -- I believe as part of the saving 10 of money within the organization, there was a window you 11 had to identify I -- I believe a year before you -- you 12 were leaving because they were trying to slot people into 13 the right place. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And, if you did, there was a certain 16 -- some monies came to you. It wasn't a golden 17 handshake. It wasn't basically. 18 You were eligible for a certain amount of 19 -- of compensation days that you were eligible to you. 20 So, that was one (1) of the reasons that I was intended 21 to -- I -- I worked to the last day. If I -- if I had 22 worked another day, then I would have lost that -- that 23 compensation. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: So, I -- I think that I -- I looked


1 to find -- if I could find one, I put a retirement letter 2 in. I -- I don't see it in my notes, but I believe it's 3 about a year before I -- I left. 4 Q: And, in addition to the compensation 5 that you would have received, you would have had, I'm -- 6 I'm assuming, some time built up or overtime or for 7 annual leave or other such things? 8 A: You don't get paid as a commission 9 officer of the Ontario Provincial Police. They do give 10 you, if you can take them, lieu days off. If you -- if 11 you work a Saturday and Sunday you might be able to take 12 a Monday off, but I didn't have that luxury it seems. I 13 had lots of days coming to me. 14 Q: And what about accumulated annual 15 leave, that sort of thing? And, I guess the only thing 16 I'm getting at, does that explain at all, the number of 17 days, essentially, that you were off the job? 18 A: Yes, sir, I'm trying to burn them up 19 as best I can. 20 Q: All right. And during the time that 21 you're away to use this accumulated time off and such, 22 otherwise you're going to lose it, I'm assuming? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Who would be in your stead, who 25 would...


1 A: Superintendent Baronski or 2 Superintendent Parkin would have been. It was always 3 somebody from command staff that would have been. 4 Q: And if I can refer you Tab number 22, 5 it is Inquiry Document number 2000985. It's a Ministry 6 of Solicitor General briefing note dated July 31st of 7 1995. 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And do you recall seeing or reading 10 this briefing note; no, perhaps not on the date that it 11 was issued, but at some date, perhaps after your return? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Not specifically. 16 Q: Are you aware of the contents that it 17 speaks to? 18 A: Yes, I am, and I see that -- 19 Q: And -- pardon me? 20 A: And I see that in the facsimile 21 transmittal sheet that Superintendent Parkin has e-mailed 22 you as well, the -- he e-mailed the people. And this 23 was if so -- if Tony Parkin had been involved in the 24 transmittal of that, when I returned I'm sure it would 25 have been in my reading file to read, to update myself.


1 Q: All right. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And it essentially confirms what you 6 would have been briefed on by -- by the time you had 7 returned, and that is that the Military had vacated. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: If I can, I -- I've -- I read that 12 briefing note in the summary and it says on July the 13 29th, so I would have been on vac -- on annual leave: 14 "A group of dissidents took over the 15 built- up area." 16 So, definitely I -- when I came back, I 17 would be made aware of that, given the history of what we 18 had been involved in, so it definitely -- Superintendent 19 Parkin would have enlightened me as to, Now we have them 20 moved in, the militants have taken over the built up area 21 of the Base. 22 Q: All right. And Mr. Sandler has just 23 helpfully, again, pointed out that in reference to 24 Inspector Carson's handwritten notes, there's reference 25 that throughout that period he was calling you, even


1 though you were away on annual leave, providing you 2 updates. 3 Does that help you at all? 4 A: Obviously I wasn't out and that would 5 -- would not have bothered me at all. 6 I've never objected to having a telephone 7 call at home. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: If I can refer you to Tab 71, sir. 12 Pardon me, just before we move off of Tab 22, can that be 13 made the next exhibit, please? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-562, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-562: Document number 2000985 MSGCS 17 Issue Note July 31/95, Issue: 18 Native occupation, Camp 19 Ipperwash; to Supt. T. Parkin 20 from Nancy Mansell. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: At tab 71 there is the -- the 24 statement as well as some handwritten notes towards the 25 back of Chief Superintendent Anthony Parkin.


1 And if I can refer you to the July 29 2 entry, handwritten, of his handwritten notes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Pardon me, yes. Sunday the 30th, 7 July -- July 1995. 8 A: '95, I have them. 9 Q: And it indicates that it was a rest 10 day but it would appear, according to -- to these notes 11 that you called and requested that Chief Superintendent 12 Parkin attend to the Forest Detachment in respect to this 13 takeover that had occurred the day before. 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And if you go just further down, at 17 12:00 hours that it would appear that he had called you 18 back on the cell phone? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Now would that be your cell phone, 21 sir, or his? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Did you carry a cell phone at that 24 time? 25 A: No.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I don't believe I had a cell phone at 4 that -- I didn't have a cell phone at that time other 5 than the one that was in the -- hard wired into the 6 cruiser. 7 Q: Thank you, sir. Just for the record, 8 the statement of Chief Superintendent Anthony Parkin 9 together with his notes are all together as one (1) 10 document and I understand that that is Exhibit P-499. 11 Sir, at Tab 23 is a further briefing note 12 of the Solicitor General dated August 2nd of 1995 on the 13 Native occupation of Camp Ipperwash; that is Inquiry 14 Document 2000984. 15 Now again, you testified earlier that you 16 were on vacation during this time or on annual leave. Do 17 you recall seeing this briefing note or were you aware of 18 the events that it describes? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes, I'm aware of the content. 23 Q: And on the second page of that 24 document, the 5th bullet from the bottom, there's a 25 report of a two (2) person motor vehicle accident


1 fatality on the day previous, that is August 1st of '95. 2 A: It shows that I'm away but I -- I was 3 made aware at some time of that -- that tragic fatality. 4 Q: Attached to that is an e-mail from 5 Anthony Parkin, Region West to Nancy Mansell? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I understand that Nancy Mansell 8 was in the Commissioner's office? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: Okay. And you'll see that at the end 11 of the second paragraph, this is on August 2nd of '95 at 12 09:42 hours, it's reported, quote: 13 "They now allege there's a burial 14 ground within the Park boundaries." 15 Do you see that? 16 A: I'm reading Document 15609; is that 17 the one? 18 Q: 608. 19 A: Oh. 20 Q: Sorry just turn back one (1) page. 21 A: Yes. Yes, I see that. 22 Q: Up to that point, sir, had you ever 23 heard such allegations, that is -- that there was a 24 burial ground in Ipperwash Provincial Park; within the 25 Park boundaries, I should say?


1 A: Up to that time I was aware that 2 there was a First Nations burial site. As to whether or 3 not, in my mind at this time, it was at Camp Ipperwash, 4 the Military Base or in fact the -- the Ministry of 5 Natural Resources, the Provincial Park, I -- I can't tell 6 you. 7 But, I do know that there was a Base in 8 that vicinity, yes. 9 Q: A burial ground? 10 A: A burial ground, I'm sorry, yes. 11 Q: And do you recall seeing this e-mail 12 at all? 13 A: No, I don't. It's from Tony Parkin 14 to Mansell with carbon copy to Ronnie Fox. It takes 15 place on August the 2nd. Again, it may have appeared in 16 my reading material, but I suggest it -- it didn't. I 17 suggest Tony Parkin just would have updated me when I 18 came back. 19 Q: All right. Perhaps we can -- well, 20 before I ask for this to be marked as an exhibit, when 21 Tony Parkin updated you on your return, do you recall 22 whether or not he updated you to the fact that there's 23 now alleged to be a burial ground within the boun -- Park 24 boundaries? 25 A: If not, the answer to that question


1 is I cannot specifically recall. 2 Q: Thank you. If we can have that 3 marked as the next -- next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-563, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-563: Document number 2000984 MSGCS 7 Issue Note Aug. 02/95, Issue: 8 Native occupation , Camp 9 Ipperwash, staff contact : 10 Phil Duffield, OPP& emails 11 from Anthony Parkin to Nancy 12 Mansell. 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 15 be a good time to have an afternoon break? 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Certainly. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll have 18 an afternoon break. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 3:35 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 3:52 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now


1 resumed. Please be seated. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: Perhaps we can just continue then. 7 At Exhibit P-410, Tab 2 at page 24559 and 24561, that is 8 the handwritten notes of John Carson, dated July 29th of 9 1995, he reports that he had discussion with you, sir, in 10 your capacity as Chief Superintendent that evening about 11 the occupation of the built-up area. 12 And the notes indicate that you were 13 advised at 16:00 hours and quote, "Updated and briefed" 14 end quote, at 19:25 hours. Do you see that? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And this is -- this is of course the 17 day that you went away on annual leave. It seems like 18 you were more busy as you were away. 19 You would have been briefed that day about 20 the -- the items we were just talking about. The 21 takeover of -- of the Base, the evacuation of the 22 Military. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: All right. And if we go to 24561 of 25 Exhibit P-410 at Tab 2, there's a reported telephone


1 conversation between Inspector Carson and yourself at 2 09:20 hours, it -- it would appear that there was some 3 discussion about the implications of the Military leaving 4 the camp? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: That you were updated on some 7 overnight issues, potential resolution, the issue of 8 ownership and who to talk to. 9 If I can just focus on that for a moment, 10 the potential resolution, do you have any recollection 11 today, sir, what that was about and what that potential 12 was? 13 A: The Band Council resolution? It 14 appears to be a Band Council resolution. I think that's 15 the resolution where they talked about the... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 I know of a resolution where the Kettle 20 Point Band Council made a resolution asking people to 21 leave. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: That's the one that I -- I'm not sure 24 if that's the one they're referring to, but that's the 25 one.


1 Q: All right. Thank you for that. The 2 -- the next -- the next item, the issue of ownership. 3 A: When the Military left, there was the 4 issue as who did -- who, in fact, did they turn it over 5 to. Now, in my mind it was always the occupiers, Glen 6 George. At this time, that's who I assumed that they 7 gave it over to, but I'm -- I'm asking the question, or 8 at least John Carson has picked up on a question, Did 9 they specifically do it, or like, who owns it now or -- 10 Q: All right. 11 A: -- what have we got? 12 Q: So, this simply raised a lot more 13 questions for -- for you to answer or for somebody to 14 answer? 15 A: Who do we talk to? 16 Q: Right. 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: Were there any answers at that -- at 19 that moment? Just again, we're looking at the 30th -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: -- of July, '95? 22 A: I would say no, given the question 23 marks, ownership, who do we talk to, et cetera. 24 Q: And then -- 25 A: I see that super -- I've said


1 Superintendent Park -- Parkin, I'll send him to Forest. 2 Q: All right. And then looking further 3 at that, there was some discussion about keeping 4 Inspector Ron Fox up to date as well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And you would know that 7 he was the liaison at the Interministerial Committee, 8 also known as the Blockade Committee, or Interministerial 9 Committee on Aboriginal Emergencies and, I think, various 10 other names? 11 A: To be honest, at that time, I -- I -- 12 my -- I always believed that Ron was the Ontario 13 Provincial Police liaison officer to Queen -- to the 14 Ministry for First Nations policing issues. 15 I know about the blockade committees, that 16 he's a member, et cetera, of it, but to I -- to me he was 17 the person that you kept appraised as far as First 18 Nations issues in -- in -- in the areas of my concern. 19 Q: All right. I, perhaps, inadvertently 20 narrowed his scope, but, in fact, it's much larger. he 21 was liaison with the Queen's Park. 22 A: That's what I always believed him to 23 be, sir. 24 Q: Okay. Did Inspector Fox have any 25 reporting relationship directly with yourself or -- or


1 with Chief Superintendent Parkin? 2 A: No, sir. A liaison reporting 3 relationship, but not a direct reporting relationship. 4 Q: All right. Do you know who he would 5 have reported to, whether it was somebody at general 6 headquarters or -- or elsewhere? 7 A: I'm -- I'm not sure, sir, I don't 8 know. 9 Q: Okay. And if we turn back to Exhibit 10 410, again, at page -- at Tab 2, page 24563 under the 11 July 30th, 1995 date, it would appear that you had 12 attended. 13 Can you tell us anything further about 14 that? 15 A: Can you give me a date? 16 Q: July 30th, 1995. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: It appears that I... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: It doesn't say where this meeting is 25 that I can -- I'm wondering if that's the meeting with


1 Steve McDonald where I mentioned before I was given a 2 tour of the area, and I wondered if that was it. 3 I -- I can't make out from those notes and 4 my own diary does not show that I attended. It doesn't 5 mean to say I didn't do it. 6 Q: Okay. That's fine, we'll -- we'll 7 move on. 8 After you returned back on duty on August 9 the 16th, you had some contact with officials from the 10 Ministry of Natural Resources, one Peter Sturdy in 11 particular. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I take it you're looking at your 16 diary for 1995, your daily journal? 17 A: Yes, I am. I notice on August the 18 22nd that I'm speaking with MNR, Peter Sturdy. 19 Q: Okay. And, that appears at Tab 16 of 20 the book of documents in front of you, that is a 21 photocopy of your daily journal? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: It indicates that you were back in 24 the office in any event? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: Speak to MNR Peter Sturdy, that -- 2 re: the Ipperwash situation? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And do you recall what the 5 conversation with Peter Sturdy was about on that date? 6 A: Well, that -- I believe that the -- 7 there was information that statements had been made by 8 occupiers or information obtained that the occupiers 9 might now be in fact targeting the -- the Provincial Park 10 as -- and, therefore they are getting -- MNR is getting 11 concerned. 12 Q: Your notes go on to indicate John 13 Carson re: Ipperwash -- 14 A: Yes? 15 Q: I'm not sure I can read beyond that, 16 but it looks like -- 17 A: Beyond that, it's also advising 18 Harrington and Lee, that's an administrative matter, it 19 has nothing to do with -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- and it's -- they had applied for a 22 position and -- and I was advising -- I had been advised 23 that they had not made the positions and I had just -- 24 was advising. 25 Q: All right. Thank you. And, if I


1 refer you to Tab 71, which is Exhibit P-499, and Inquiry 2 Document Number 2003790, which is Chief Superintendent 3 Parkin's notes, it would seem that he reports at 15:40 4 hours Wednesday, August 16th of '95 ... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: At 9:50 -- 09:15 hours Chief Coles 13 called. Will be in, I gather -- in tomorrow? 14 A: I'll be in tomorrow, yes. 15 Q: And, if we go down to 15:45 hours, 16 there's -- it was reported by Officer Dale Linton... 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And he reports that Glenn George 19 would seem to have indicated at that point that after 20 Labour Day the Park -- essentially, the Park will be 21 ours. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And I'll read that if I can:


1 "1545 hours spoke with Dale Linton. 2 Apparently, Glenn George has again said 3 that after Labour Day, the Park will be 4 theirs. George Speck obtained this 5 information. Tonight there's a meeting 6 on Walpole Island." 7 Is that First Nation police authority 8 committee to discuss issues or for police authority? 9 A: It appears to me there's two (2) 10 issues there. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: One (1) being policing in relation to 13 Ipperwash, one (1) being in relation to policing on 14 Walpole Island and -- and an administrative issue dealing 15 with a suspension and then some information that Ed Isaac 16 from Walpole has been showing up at Ipperwash. 17 Q: To speak with Glenn -- to meet with 18 Glenn George? 19 A: To meet with Glenn George, correct. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: It appears that information all came 22 from George Speck. 23 Q: All right. And it would appear, just 24 the way that that's written, when I -- when I see that it 25 was said again, I take it that there was some comment


1 earlier and I wonder if that's the comment that I'd 2 referred to you earlier. 3 If you know, can you comment on that? 4 A: I do know that there was information 5 that we had that had come from various sources that the 6 Provincial Park was going to now come into focus from 7 occupiers. 8 Q: And in your meeting, then, with Peter 9 Sturdy, on August the 22nd, might that be the kind of 10 information that would have been passed along, if you can 11 recall? 12 A: Peter Sturdy was a person higher up 13 in the chain of the Ministry of Natural Resources and -- 14 but, I'll say my equivalent, if you will, and that person 15 had concerns and we started to have conversations and the 16 conversations would have surrounded injunctions et 17 cetera. 18 Q: Okay. We know that the 19 superintendent of the Park was one Les Kobayashi. 20 A: Yes, sir, he was. 21 Q: And his immediate supervisor, do you 22 know who his immediate supervisor was? 23 A: Not directly. I believe it may -- I 24 don't know for sure. 25 Q: But certainly Les Kobayashi would


1 have been subordinate to Peter Sturdy, is that -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- your understanding? 4 A: Yes, sir, I do know that, yes. 5 Q: Okay. All right. And it's your 6 indication that he was on an equivalent level with -- 7 with yourself. 8 Is that why you would have sought him out? 9 A: Yes, as far as I'm concerned it's -- 10 I wasn't sure direct, you know. I didn't know who he 11 reported to et cetera, but as far as I was concerned, he 12 was a person that I probably should talk to. 13 He wanted to talk to me about Ipperwash 14 and that was fine. 15 Q: Okay. Again, you have no notes of 16 that -- of the specifics of that conversation? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And beyond which you've confirmed for 19 us, can you tell us anything else about what you might 20 have talked about? 21 A: I have no direct recollection. 22 Q: Okay. Did you have any occasion to 23 call an individual or, first of all, do you know an 24 individual by the name of Ron Baldwin who's connected to 25 the Ministry of Natural Resources?


1 A: I know that Ron Baldwin -- that I had 2 contact with Ron Baldwin from Ministry of Natural 3 Resources, that's about as far as I could go. 4 I can't put a face et cetera. I can to 5 Mr. Sturdy but I can't to Mr. Baldwin. 6 Q: All right. And at exhibit P-410 in 7 front you, at Tab 3, page 24580, Mr. Carson advises that 8 you were to call Ron Baldwin personally and get written 9 direction of the MNR position. 10 A: Could you give me that again, please? 11 Q: Tab 3. 12 A: Tab 3. 13 Q: 24580. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Is that 24850? 18 Q: Yes. 24580, I'm sorry. 19 A: 24 -- no. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I apologize. 24 Q: Not at all. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I -- I -- at the top of the page 4 there is 051. Does that help me at all? If you could -- 5 is there a number somewhere? You don't have it, I'm 6 sorry. 7 We're talking Tab 4? 8 Q: Tab 3. 9 A: Tab 3. 10 Q: Pardon me. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: August 17th, '95. 15 A: I have it, I have it. I apologise. 16 Your question, sir? 17 Q: You'll see the notation there is that 18 it would appear that you were to call Ron Baldwin 19 personally and get written direction of the MNR position? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Again, I would ask you, did you first 22 of all contact Ron Baldwin personally and secondly, did 23 you get a written direction of the MNR position on that? 24 A: I do know that I contacted Ron 25 Baldwin. Whether or not I got written direction, I


1 believe that at that time again, we were now facing the 2 role of who are we dealing within MNR and who is the 3 owner of it and what is their claim and will they get an 4 injunction et cetera. 5 And -- and this to me is at the start when 6 we were starting that relationship if you will. 7 Q: Okay. And then if we turn to the -- 8 to the next page at 24581 of Tab 3, Exhibit P-410. It 9 would appear that you were given a further briefing or 10 updating with respect to the potential of -- of an 11 occupation or a blockade. 12 And there seems to be a confirmation of 13 the strategy that would be employed. Again that strategy 14 consistent -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- with the approach on Aboriginal 17 matters? 18 A: Exactly. 19 Q: And that is to -- well try to 20 negotiate a peaceful solution. 21 A: Yes and to -- if somebody is making a 22 claim as to ownership of the particular piece of property 23 then I'm asking them to establish how they know that they 24 are the owners of it and if in fact they are contest -- 25 going to contest people, then to seek an injunc -- to go


1 by way of injunction. 2 That would be my -- my approach. And 3 that's -- that was what the discussions would have been 4 and were. 5 Q: Okay. Is there some suggestion 6 there, sir, about the Minister -- Ministry of 7 Transportation obtaining an injunction? 8 A: It says MTO and injunction as I read 9 Inspector Carson's notes. And why the MTO would get an 10 injunction, I don't know. 11 Q: Now MTO would typically be -- 12 A: The Ministry of Transport. 13 Q: -- in charge of, well the highways 14 perhaps. 15 A: Highways, et cetera yes, so I don't 16 know what -- 17 Q: Perhaps there was some antici -- 18 maybe I -- maybe I won't speculate. But it would appear 19 then that you were to discuss with Dale Elliott at MNR 20 and you were to liaise with Dale Elliott. 21 A: Correct. If -- if I can re: 22 potential blockades, if the blockade was to -- and then 23 the word 'traffic'. If the blockade was to be well say 24 on 21 Highway and then I could see that MTO might be 25 considered to get an injunction as far as the blockades.


1 So that's might assist. 2 Q: So you were simply canvassing the 3 alternatives by -- by that explanation? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: All right. And did you contact Dale 6 Elliott? Do you know Dale Elliott? 7 A: No, sir. I -- I can't put a fact to 8 him. I believe I did have meetings with Dale Elliott but 9 I -- I can't put a face to him. 10 Q: And would you be able to recall 11 anything of those meetings? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: All right. At Exhibit P-419 which is 14 Tab 76, it is an e-mail from John Carson to Nancy 15 Mansell. 16 You were copied with this, sir? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: It's an issue sheet with respect to 19 Ipperwash dated August 18th, 1995 bearing a high priority 20 stamp? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And it confirms that there was some 23 preparations underway of Kettle and Stoney Point 24 residents to commence a blockade of Highway 21. 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And so that would seem to fit with 2 the earlier comment in Carson's notes that the Ministry 3 of Transportation might consider an injunction. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And do you recall receiving and 6 reading this e-mail? 7 A: No, sir, I don't, not specifically. 8 But, obviously I have the information when it says Chief 9 Superintendent Coles was updated so... 10 Q: All right. And going back to Exhibit 11 P-410 at Tab 3 page 24583, Inspector Carson reports a 12 discussion with you about the Park and whether there was 13 a land claim, do you see that? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And do you recall that conversation 16 at all? 17 A: Specifically, that one? No, sir, not 18 at this date. 19 Q: Then, towards the end of August of 20 1995, you're aware, sir, that there was a contingency 21 plan dubbed, "Project Maple" that was being developed? 22 A: I -- I knew at the end that there was 23 a project plan -- an operational plan being -- being 24 composed, if you will. The words, "Project Maple," that 25 was -- to me it was an operational plan that was being --


1 it -- it ended up being called Project Maple, but I knew 2 that an operational plan was to be prepared. 3 Q: And I take it from that you had no 4 role in the development of that plan? 5 A: I had meetings as far as that John 6 Carson should do it and I was at some preliminary 7 meetings with it, but most of the interaction would have 8 been between John Carson and Superintendent Parkin and 9 then with updates to me as to what, basically, was going 10 on, that the plan was being prepared. 11 Q: All right. And we understand that 12 Project Maple was approved by -- by Superintendent 13 Parkin. 14 Do you know when you might have seen the 15 -- the approved version or -- or reviewed the plan? 16 A: Later than when the plan was 17 prepared, later -- later on, but no, I can't remember 18 specifically when. 19 Q: And you've told us earlier that it is 20 the incident commander that would typically develop 21 operational plans and that such plans are generally 22 approved by their ranking officer? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: All right. And that would have 25 happened in this case?


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Superintendent Parkin would have been 3 the ranking officer to Inspector Carson? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Once you had a chance to review the 6 plan, do you recall whether or not you had any input and, 7 as a result of such input, were any changes made to the 8 plan? 9 A: As I previously stated, I don't -- I 10 -- I don't recall when I saw the plan and -- and anything 11 that I had, that whether or not it made its way into the 12 plan, I -- I do not recall. 13 Q: It wouldn't be unusual for you to 14 make suggestions and those to be... 15 A: Correct. I think we -- we mentioned 16 previously in the Military plan, there's a -- a talk of a 17 chronology, et cetera -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- and that -- that usually speaks 20 that that's something that I would have asked for. 21 Q: Okay. And, in and around this time, 22 you're aware that Superintendent Parkin had some 23 discussion with MPP Marcel Beaubien, again August -- late 24 August 1995? 25 A: Yes, sir.


1 Q: Do you know the nature of that 2 discussion; were you advised of that? 3 A: My recollection is that 4 Superintendent Parkin had a meeting with Mr. Beaubien 5 basically pertaining to the Ipperwash situation and what 6 the Ontario Provincial Police were -- were doing. 7 Q: Okay. If we can go to Tab 71, that 8 is P-499, the notes of Superintendent Parkin and, in 9 particular, his handwritten notes at 36171? 10 A: Yes, sir? 11 Q: It would come under the date -- 12 pardon me, page 14 of -- of 99. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: So, he reports that at 10:00 hours, 17 he met with Lambton area MPP Marcel Beaubien. He 18 understood the OPP position relating to Ipperwash Base: 19 "Concerned about the Park and cottage 20 owners. Very frustrated. May do 21 something. He will be pushing..." 22 I think that's "pushing", 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "Runciman and Harnick and MNR for 25 direction and a position. No


1 complaints about policing or OPP." 2 Do you know who was going to be pushing 3 Runciman or Harnick and MNR for direction and a position? 4 A: I would assume that it would be he -- 5 he, being Marcel Beaubien, will be pushing his 6 counterparts in the Ontario government. 7 Q: Okay. And the expression "very 8 frustrated" and "may do something", do you know what that 9 was in relation to? 10 A: I believe that to be in relation to 11 the previous statement concerned about Park and cottage 12 owners are very frustrated and may do something. 13 Q: All right. And if we refer to P-410, 14 Tab 3, page 24583, there's a report by Inspector Carson 15 of a conversation -- a call that he had with yourself. 16 A: Tab, can you give me -- 17 Q: Tab 3. 18 A: In John Carson's? 19 Q: Right. 20 A: And the number, please? 21 Q: 24583. 22 A: Yes, I have it. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: Your question, sir? 2 Q: Yeah, simply that -- can you confirm 3 that you had this conversation with -- with Mr. Carson, 4 that you were updated in regards to the files, Ipperwash, 5 the Park? 6 A: I -- 7 Q: Maps have been received -- 8 A: I have no -- 9 Q: -- laminated -- 10 A: I have no recollection of it, but if 11 John Carson put it in his notes that he talked to the 12 Chief Superintendent and updated him, I've every reason 13 to believe that it did happen. 14 Q: All right. And so for Monday August 15 28th of '95 at page 24584 of that same document, again, 16 John Carson reports a meeting at ten o'clock in the a.m. 17 between yourself, Superintendent Parkin, Inspector 18 Hutchinson and acting Sergeant Deane, okay? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Topics of discussion included 21 tactics, alternatives, capabilities, and capabilities 22 [rather] in relation to the occupation of Ipperwash Park. 23 Carson asked Coles to let him know who the back up 24 incident commander might be. 25 A: Correct.


1 Q: Okay. Did you appoint a back up 2 incident commander? 3 A: Not -- not formally. It was decided, 4 I guess, by Superintendent Parkin who that person would 5 be. I would -- I would leave that to Superintendent 6 Parkin or it may have been with discussion for me. 7 The significance to me is that first 8 meeting on August 28th, is that you have myself, you have 9 Superintendent Parkin, Inspector Hutchinson who is with 10 the criminal investigation branch that was assigned as a 11 liaison officer for the criminal activities that may or 12 may not occur, and the acting Sergeant Tex Deane from the 13 TRU team. 14 Q: And the discussion about tactics, do 15 you recall anything about that, firstly? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Alternatives? 18 A: No, sir. I mean the tactics would 19 have been one of seeking an injunction. That was always 20 our approach to seek an injunction, but they're actually 21 starting to -- to actually prepare a plan, so there's 22 some discussion. 23 But I have no direct recollection of what 24 was talked about. 25 Q: All right. And if we go, then, to


1 page 24587 of that same document, under Tab 4. 2 A: Under Tab 4? 3 Q: Please. And it is a note of John 4 Carson dated September 3rd, 1995 at 2030 hours. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: It would appear that you were called 7 at that point, or perhaps I shouldn't say that. Do you 8 know who was called? 9 A: It appears that on September the 3rd 10 at 2030 hours at 10:21 to Chief Superintendent Coles, so 11 it's John Carson calling me. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: Updated re. operational plan. I was 14 up -- that the operational plan was being -- was 15 finalized or was being finalized, I would assume. 16 And it I believe that there was a meeting 17 with the MNR and then a discussions about having the 18 buildings videoed re. evidence and that there would be 19 assigned to I -- Ident would be assigned to in the a.m. 20 I do recall a conversation with Inspector 21 Carson, whether or not specifically that conversation, 22 about the potential of videotaping and having cameras 23 placed in positions; that should things go bad, that we 24 could later turn them on or seek permission to have them 25 turned on through the courts.


1 Q: Now, this would -- this would be an 2 operational or a tactical decision -- 3 A: It's an operation, yes, sir. 4 Q: And, this would have been provided by 5 way of a suggestion to the incident commander? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And do you recall how forceful, if I 8 can -- I can put it that way, that you might have given 9 that suggestion? 10 A: No, it would just be a -- it would be 11 just a general conversation, what are we doing? Where 12 are we going? And then, obviously John has made it that 13 there's been a discussion between he and I that why don't 14 we consider putting some cameras up there right now just 15 in case. 16 Nothing's going on at this -- nothing has 17 gone on at this time, but there is, given our experience 18 at the Military Base, et cetera, we're talking about 19 intelligence and that, I saw that was a good idea and it 20 takes time to do. So... 21 Q: It makes sense. I mean it's advance 22 planning? 23 A: Exactly, yeah. But it wasn't me 24 directly telling him, John, you have to do this. That -- 25 you wouldn't -- you don't do that with an incident


1 commander. I mean it's -- it's his job -- 2 Q: Right. 3 A: -- to do that. 4 Q: And are you aware whether or not 5 videotapes were, in fact, installed as you might have 6 suggested? 7 First of all, when you say, "video cameras 8 up there," where were you suggesting? 9 A: I was thinking of anywhere. I -- my 10 thoughts was at that time, the Ministry of Natural 11 Resources owned that Park, therefore they're the owners 12 and if they wish to put cameras anywhere they wish, let's 13 put the cameras. 14 So, if they're in agreement to putting 15 cameras in there, we'll provide the cameras to -- to put 16 them into the Park. Why would -- why wouldn't we do 17 that? 18 And so, "up there," to me, I guess when 19 you -- when you took that area, that's -- that's tree 20 country. There's lots of trees there and so wouldn't you 21 have -- I can remember discussions as far as -- at 22 different times about how do you hide those cameras? 23 Do you hide them in pine cones or -- or 24 birdhouses or whatever; I don't know, sir. 25 Q: And I take it that those cameras were


1 never installed, in the fashion at least that you had 2 suggested? 3 A: Well, some were install -- not 4 necessarily in that fashion, but cameras were. Ident was 5 called and people did come and did install cameras; not 6 as many, possibly in hindsight as I would have liked, but 7 yes. 8 Q: Were you given any reason as to why 9 cameras weren't installed, for example, in the -- in the 10 area around the sandy parking lot? 11 A: Yes, sir. I was told that Hydro -- 12 that there was not -- later -- on the day that I visited 13 on September the 5th, the day of September the 5th, when 14 Parkin and I went up, I -- this is -- I'm now looking for 15 these cameras and I'm told that -- I'm going down Army 16 Camp Road and we don't have cameras in these particular 17 places and I'm asking the question, why. 18 And the explanation I was given was that 19 they had difficulty getting hydro to those cameras. They 20 -- they needed hydro and I was concerned that we didn't 21 have them at the time, but we did have, I think, five (5) 22 or six (6) cameras that had been placed on MNR property-- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- and there was only a limited time 25 to do that, but I -- I would have felt more comfortable


1 had there been more and regretfully, some of those 2 cameras, of course, burnt up, which... 3 Q: All right. Did you suggest, for 4 example, a camera in the sandy parking lot? 5 A: No, sir, I -- I never made that 6 specific... 7 Q: All right. I want to move to -- to 8 September of 1995 and into the actual Park itself, but 9 before we go there, I just want to have a brief 10 discussion with you about the operational plan. 11 It started out as consistent with the 12 overall policy and that was on the basis of negotiating a 13 peaceful solution, correct? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: It -- it contemplated, as I looked at 16 the plan, essentially a tiered response starting with 17 containment and then moving toward negotiation. 18 A: Yes, containment and there was a plan 19 to basically put provincial police members into the Park 20 to mingle with people in the Park, that that was -- yes, 21 it was staged to try to talk to whoever chose to occupy. 22 Q: And was there any concern that the 23 fact of containment might hamper any attempts to 24 negotiate? 25 A: I have no specific recollection of


1 that. 2 Q: All right. As part of the discussion 3 that -- that you had in the meeting that you had 4 confirmed together with -- that is, the meeting with 5 Superintendent Parkin, with Hutchinson, with Deane, et 6 cetera, there obviously was some discussion about having 7 the Emergency Response Team as well as the TRU lined up 8 as part of the logistical planning? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. And I take it that that 11 was on the basis of worst case scenario type planning? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And that would be standard and are 14 typical and -- 15 A: Standard. Those -- those groups 16 would have to be notified because they come from 17 different parts in the province. 18 So, you would -- you would -- John would 19 have a notification system set up that if you were going 20 to bring in Emergency Response Team members from the 21 Burlington area, then in fact their sergeant would be 22 kind of put on notice if something was happening, you 23 might be called up to -- to Ipperwash and you would go 24 and where to report et cetera. 25 Q: And that's Sergeant Deane's duty I


1 suppose? 2 A: Sergeant Deane's duties. Not -- he's 3 not ERT. Sergeant Deane's duty was TRU, Tactical Rescue. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: What I was talking about was the ERT 6 teams. But Deane was there as far as TRU. 7 Q: Okay, thank you for that. Perhaps we 8 can turn then to September of 1995. You had indicated 9 earlier that you had some knowledge perhaps as early as 10 1993 that there was a claim or a potential claim. 11 I'm not sure how you put it, sir, of a 12 burial park in the area, whether it was on the Base or in 13 the Park? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And we know from some of the material 16 we had just covered that the allegations were now of a 17 burial site within the boundaries of the Park. 18 Or is that something that you were aware 19 of at this point in time? 20 A: Off the top of my head right now to - 21 - as to when it really came to my attention that they 22 were -- that the burial park was in the Park, I can't 23 really isolate those dates unless you can show me 24 something that maybe -- 25 Q: I'm not sure that I have anything


1 other than the documents that I had already referred you 2 to. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: You certainly would have seen 5 documents post incident, that is after the shooting of 6 Dudley George perhaps sometime in mid September of 1995. 7 We understand that there were documents 8 produced by a Federal minister? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And that -- well perhaps you can tell 11 us about that. What it is that you recall from that? 12 A: Not necessary the Federal Minister. 13 I can -- I recall that there was a report that was 14 generated I think by the MNR which basically they had 15 dealt with. The First Nations of Kettle and Stoney Point 16 to suggest that if they were in fact -- it's kind of 17 there was a burial ground there, that perhaps it could be 18 handled under this -- a fence could be put around it and 19 -- and it could be handled under the Cemeteries Act. 20 I do recall -- I do recall a report to 21 that affect and how that got -- whether or not it was 22 provided by MNR as the investigation went on. I do 23 remember that report. 24 And then I do remember specifically the 25 report that there was I think it was 1937 when there was


1 a research done in the area by a gentleman. One saying 2 that it wasn't a burial ground and then a document 3 referring to a superintendent of the Park who suggested 4 there was. 5 I remember that kind of documentation. 6 That's what I remember in the file. 7 Q: And your recollection of this 8 documentation comes after the incident of September 6th 9 or prior to? 10 A: Yes, I think it was after I'm not 11 sure but I think it was after. 12 Q: Did you have occasion during this 13 period of time to meet either with Premier Harris or 14 Minister Runciman at any point in time after the election 15 of the Conservative government? 16 A: Not after the election, sir. 17 Q: Okay. Prior to the election I take 18 it you would answer? 19 A: Prior to the election -- prior to the 20 election I can remember a meeting at which the chiefs of 21 police of London, Assistant Commissioner of the RCMP in 22 London, myself, Julian Fantino. 23 And there were I think the chief, there 24 was some Oxford County Chiefs, Middlesex people that -- 25 and that's when the Harris, Runciman, not elected at that


1 time, came down and they were putting together -- it was 2 an information session as to what local police chiefs 3 required or wanted. 4 And that's the only time that I've ever 5 seen that I recall, Premier Harris in the flesh, so to 6 speak. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I think I volunteered one (1) 9 question at that meeting. I can't remember what it was, 10 but I volunteered question and that -- that's all I 11 recall, but I have not seen him since. 12 Q: All right. And they were seeking the 13 views, I take it, as part of the campaign to -- 14 A: Yes. Yes. 15 Q: - to obtain a shopping list of the 16 police services to put it sort of generally? 17 A: Yes, I guess so. 18 Q: All right. And you recall what that 19 list might have contained? And I guess, secondly, 20 whether or not anything that was sought at that point in 21 time ever materialized? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: All right. Did you have any contact 24 with Attorney General Harnick or any of the deputy 25 ministers of the Solicitor General or Attorney General or


1 the Ministry of Natural Resources, prior to September the 2 4th, 1995? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: And prior to September the 5th of 5 1995, did you have any meetings with MPP Marcel Beaubien, 6 MP Rosemarie Ur -- well, those two (2), let me start with 7 those two (2)? 8 A: Not Rosemarie Ur and not a meeting 9 with Marcel. I don't know if there was a phone call 10 before, I -- I don't recall that. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: But not Rosemarie (phonetic) Ur. I 13 believe Rosemarie Ur, I contacted afterwards. 14 Q: Mayor Fred Thomas? 15 A: I can't recall. 16 Q: And this telephone call with Marcel 17 Beaubien, you -- I think you told us a bit about that 18 earlier and your testimony is, is that you don't recall 19 the specifics of that discussion? 20 A: I -- no. No, sir, I don't. 21 Q: If I can refer you to Tab 25, please? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: That is Inquiry Document 3000768


1 being an e-mail from Nancy Mansell to Commissioner Thomas 2 O'Grady, Phil Duffield, Ron Fox, and others? 3 A: Yes? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. Do you see that? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And it's up on the board now and -- 10 on the screen, rather. It would appear that -- that 11 Superintendent Parkin confirmed the absence of any 12 concrete information that would lead to believe Kettle 13 and Stony Point residents intend to take over Ipperwash 14 Park on Labour Day weekend. 15 A: Well, I guess the optimum word is, 16 "concrete information," and, "on the -- the Labour Day 17 weekend," yeah. 18 Q: All right. But it goes on to report 19 that while there's no concrete information, there's 20 certainly these rumours out there? 21 A: Yeah. Well, in my opinion, the 22 reason that -- that it's written that way is that there's 23 two (2) different -- if the Park is -- if it goes on the 24 Tuesday, we had reason to believe that the majority of 25 campers and that would have been out of the Park and we


1 have had people into that Park. 2 But if it went on Labour Day weekends, you 3 would expect a larger crowd of people and campers and 4 that would have its own logistics problems that we might 5 have to contend with. And Superintendent Parkin is 6 referring that we don't have anything concrete on this. 7 Q: All right. I take it you would have 8 been apprised of that as well at -- in and around the 9 same time? 10 A: Oh, I -- I was apprised that we had 11 people into the Park and that the criminal -- the Crime 12 Management people were basically -- we had -- we had 13 undercover officers in the Park. I knew of that, yes, 14 sir. 15 Q: So, the contingency plan or the 16 contingency that's in place, I take it that -- that was 17 Operation Maple -- pardon me, Project Maple? 18 A: Well, not necessarily to that 19 project, that was a project plan but the just general 20 policing, you know, much of them as we put undercover 21 people on the beach doing patrol, well, we put undercover 22 people into the Park not knowing what we had. 23 Q: All right. The -- Project Maple, as 24 I understand, was completed the first part of September 25 and it was distributed on the 4th of September?


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: At Exhibit P-25 -- sorry? Excuse me 3 one sec. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Exhibit P-425. 8 A: Tab number, please? 9 Q: And where do we have that? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: That is a -- 14 Q: Yeah. Thank you. It's Inquiry 15 document 1004483. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: You recognize that document, first of 21 all? 22 A: No. I don't recognize the document. 23 Q: All right. But it would appear to be 24 a register of names of persons who would receive copies 25 of project maple?


1 A: That's right. 2 Q: And that would be dated -- it would 3 appear that you were issued a copy on the 5th of 4 September, '95. 5 A: That's correct. I was off on 6 September the 4th, it's a statutory holiday, and my notes 7 of September the 5th report that I am at office duty re. 8 Western region and preparation re. Ipperwash. 9 So I guess the -- whether or not I saw the 10 document that day, I can't tell you. I have no 11 recollection. 12 Q: All right. And as you returned to 13 work, I take it you would have also been briefed, then, 14 that there had been a move to occupy the Park the -- that 15 day? 16 A: No, I was -- my notes say that on the 17 4th of September at 8:00 p.m. advised natives have 18 occupied Ipperwash, damage to the cruisers but no one has 19 been hurt. 20 Q: We have also heard, and I anticipate 21 we may hear some further evidence, that there was an 22 officer who reportedly saw a firearm or a long gun from 23 the trunk of a -- of a vehicle -- 24 A: Hunting rifle or rifle in the trunk 25 of the vehicle, yes.


1 Q: You were aware of that? 2 A: Yes, I was. 3 Q: And do you recall how that would have 4 came to you? 5 A: My understanding is from information 6 from the officers who were involved in the confrontation 7 that -- that night, that one of the officers saw and 8 reported a firearm in the trunk of the car. 9 Q: If I can refer you to Tab 73, please. 10 That is Exhibit 492, which are the cell phone records of 11 John Carson from September the 6th to the 21st of 1995. 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: There is a phone number at 19:52 14 hours of the 6th of September. 15 MR. MARK SANDLER: 4th. 16 MR. DONALD WORME: 4th? 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: Yes. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: 4th of September, thank you. 21 A: Excuse me, 4th of September? 22 Q: Right. Hmm hmm. Sorry, I missed 23 that. There's a phone number there, XXX-XXX-XXXX. 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Do you recognize that phone number --


1 A: Yes, sir -- 2 Q: -- first of all? 3 A: I do. 4 Q: And who's number is that? 5 A: Mine. 6 Q: Would that be a cell phone or a 7 office number? 8 A: No, sir. It's a residence. 9 Q: Okay. And if we refer to Tab 16, 10 that is your 1995 daily journal, at page 6, 8:00 p.m., it 11 seems that that's simply a notation of your confirmation 12 of the briefing that you had received. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: You want me to look at Tab 16? Tab 17 16 its the -- it's your daily journal for September the 18 4th of 1995. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: At the 8:00 p.m. entry. 21 A: That's what I already testified to. 22 Q: Right. And that's just a 23 confirmation of that. That's the only point I was 24 getting at. 25 A: Yes, sir. Yes.


1 Q: And if we turn to Tab 26 which is a 2 further confirmation of this and the scribe notes, that 3 is Exhibit 426 at pages 7 and 8. 4 A: I don't have a number on my -- this 5 is Tab 26? 6 Q: Tab -- yes, Tab 26 of that Document 7 Binder. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that would be the scribe notes? 10 A: I -- I don't know whose notes they 11 are. 12 Q: Excuse me one second. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And would it -- it would appear that 17 you had received further information at that point, some 18 three (3) hours later than the initial call? 19 A: On 23:01? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Advising of a hard time experienced 23 at the gate, the damage to the cruiser, break and enter 24 at the maintenance shed. That's perhaps a little more 25 detailed --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- than you had been given 3 previously? 4 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 5 Q: All right. And at 23:02 advised that 6 he spoke to Rosemarie Ur? 7 A: I don't know who that's referring to. 8 Q: And that's the question I was going 9 to ask you, as to whether you knew who that was? 10 A: All right. 11 Q: But in any event Rosemary Err was 12 advised of a conversation indicating that a letter was 13 being served. 14 Do you know -- do you know anything about 15 what that relates to? 16 A: I think that's a continuation of the 17 paragraph above. They just put a different time on it. 18 I believe that means advised 'he', so this is still the 19 conversation John Carson calling to -- to Chief 20 Superintendent Coles. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: And that 'he', being John Carson, 23 spoke to Rosemary Ur and advised of the conversation with 24 her indicating as we speak a letter is -- is being 25 served. I don't know what that letter was.


1 Q: And you don't recall if you were 2 given that information from Inspector Carson? 3 A: I'm only eluding to the point above. 4 I might be wrong, I -- I don't know. 5 Q: And if we can go down at that 23:02 6 entry to the 5th bullet on that. It says: 7 "Holding tight for tonight, wait for 8 daylight." 9 Do you see that? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And then briefed on various entry 12 points, Les Kobayashi and Vinnie going to serve papers 13 down at the maintenance building. 14 Vinnie, I take it that would be Vince 15 George perhaps, if you know? 16 A: Yes, I believe that to be. 17 Q: It goes on to indicate that Ron Fox 18 was advised of the situation and that Ms. Ur was 19 contacted again. 20 A: Correct, sir. 21 Q: Now it was told to you by Mr. Carson, 22 by Inspector Carson, that Hutchinson and you'd referred 23 to Officer Hutchinson earlier -- 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: -- had called about Gustafsen Lake.


1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Can you tell us what that's about? 3 A: I believe -- I know that Inspector 4 Hutchinson went to Gustafson Lake and I don't know if 5 that call is -- is from Gustafson Lake. I can't tell you 6 where -- where the call was made. 7 Q: Okay. And when he says called about 8 Gustafson Lake, do you have any idea what it was that was 9 reported to Officer Carson? 10 A: No. If -- if you're saying these are 11 the scribe notes, I have no -- I was not there, so I -- I 12 really don't. 13 Q: Yeah. And -- and, again, I'm just 14 asking you that because it would seem that this is 15 something that he had reported to you about -- about 16 Officer Hutchinson calling from -- about Gustafson Lake. 17 A: Possibly, sir. 18 Q: Okay. And that doesn't help refresh 19 your memory at -- at this moment to see that? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: In any event, at 23:10 hours after 22 you -- it would appear after you get off the phone, then 23 you were going to notify Deputy Commissioner Boose? 24 A: That's correct. That they had gone 25 into the Park, that we've had cruisers smashed and the


1 rifles thing, yes, sir. 2 Q: All right. Anything about Gustafson 3 Lake? Was there any information that you can recall that 4 you might have passed along to Deputy Commissioner Boose? 5 A: No, sir. I mean, it talks of 6 Hutchinson called, re. a Supreme Court ruling yesterday. 7 In fact, when I look at it, it really doesn't even refer 8 to Gustafson Lake at all. 9 Q: I'm looking at the next -- the next 10 page, if you can look at the top of what's stamped as 11 page 8? 12 A: Yes? 13 Q: It starts out with a continuation 14 from the previous, "claiming land from there to Kettle 15 Point," in the first bullet. 16 A: Yes. Yes. 17 Q: "Hutchinson called John Carson 18 regarding Supreme Court ruling 19 yesterday p.m. regarding situation out 20 west." 21 And again my -- perhaps I was wrongly 22 making an assumption that that was the Gustafson Lake 23 matter? 24 A: I -- I think you're right, but I -- I 25 don't know.


1 Q: All right. Fair enough. 2 Commissioner, I know it's probably about five (5) or six 3 (6) minutes earlier than we would normally break, but 4 this might be an appropriate time to end for the day. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 6 we've had a long day. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 9 end now and resume tomorrow morning at nine o'clock? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 12 chance that you'll finish with this Witness tomorrow? 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, we will. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There is? 15 MR. DONALD WORME: A chance, that is. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Then 17 I think we'll adjourn now for the day. Thank you very 18 much. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 20 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, August 16th at 9:00 21 a.m. 22 23 (WITNESS RETIRES) 24 25 --- Upon adjourning at 4:53 p.m.


1 2 3 4 Certified Correct, 5 6 7 8 9 10 ________________ 11 Carol Geehan, Ms. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25