11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 27th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 ROBERT HUNTLEY, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 13 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 156 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 165 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 179 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 243 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 262 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Sunil Mathai 283 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 330 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 343 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1425 Document Number 2005563. Curriculum 4 Vitae of Robert C. Huntley. 13 5 P-1426 Document Number 2003598. Personal 6 information re. Robert Clifford Huntley 7 and handwritten version of same, 8 April 1997. 17 9 P-1427 Document Number 2005605. Handwritten 10 notebook entries of Robert C. Huntley, 11 July 30 - September 27, 1995. 22 12 P-1428 Document Number 2000785. Emergency 13 Response Team - Operational Report - 14 Handwritten (Huntley, Dave Smith) 15 August 15, 1995. 34 16 P-1429 Document Number 2000789. Emergency 17 Response Team - Handwritten Operational 18 Report (Huntley, Dave Smith) August 16, 19 1995. 35 20 P-1430 Document Number 2000792. Emergency 21 Response Team - Handwritten Operational 22 Report (Huntley, Dave Smith) August 17, 23 1995. 44 24 25
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1431 Document Number 2000797. Emergency 4 Response Team - Handwritten Operational 5 Report (Sgt R. Huntley, S/C D.E. Smith) 6 August 18, 1995. 46 7 P-1432 Handwritten notebook entries of Rob 8 Huntley, September 01, 1995. 48 9 P-1433 Document Number 2005418. Excerpted 10 handwritten notes from September 05, 11 1995 from OPP notebook of Sgt. 12 Rob Huntley. 60 13 P-1434 Transcript of Region 01, Inspector 14 Gordon - Rob Huntley, September 05, 1995, 15 11:00 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, Logger 16 tape number 1, Track 1, Disc 1 of 3. 63 17 P-1435 Transcript of Region 02, Rob Huntley 18 - Bob Briggar - Bill Dennis, September 19 05, 1995, 11:06 hrs, Mobile Command 20 Unit, Logger tape number 1, Track 3, 21 disc 1 of 3. 67 22 23 24 25
101 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1436 Transcript of Region 04, Rob Huntley 4 - Ed Robertson, September 05, 1995, 5 18:39 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, Logger 6 tape number 1, Track 1, disc 1 of 3. 75 7 P-1437 Document Number 1004701. Handwritten 8 notebook entries of Rob Huntley, 9 September 06 - 07, 1995. 78 10 P-1438 Document Number 2003600. OPP statement 11 of Rob Huntley, typed and signed version 12 of statement of Rob Huntley 13 (re. September 06, 1995). 91 14 P-1439 Document Number 2003599. OPP interview 15 statement of Rob Huntley and signed 16 handwritten version, September 07, 1995. 100 17 P-1440 Document Number 2002795. Examination- 18 In-Chief and Cross- examination of 19 Robert Huntley in R. v. Cecil Bernard 20 George, July 16, 1996. 128 21 P-1441 Document Number 1004698. Signed 22 interview statement of Robert Huntley, 23 February 17, 1998. 130 24 25
111 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1442 Transcript of Region 06, Chatham 4 Communications Centre - 2215, September 5 07, 1995, 11:31hrs. Chatham Communications 6 Centre, Logger tape number 147, Track 7, 7 disc 7 of 20. 147 8 P-1443 Document Number 2000846. Examination- 9 In-Chief and Cross- Examination of 10 Robert Huntley in R. v. Nicholas Abraham 11 Cottrelle, March 25, 1997. 151 12 P-1444 Document Number 2005302. Statement of 13 Ronald E. Piers, May 06, 1997 to August 14 07, 1998. 241 15 P-1445 Interview of Senior Constable George 16 "Peter" Osborne, May 07, 1998. 296 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
121 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. Good morning, everybody. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, we call 13 as the next witness Robert Huntley. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. 15 Huntley. 16 MR. ROBERT HUNTLEY: Good morning. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Could you take the Bible 18 in your right hand please and state your name in full for 19 the record? 20 MR. ROBERT HUNTLEY: It's Robert Huntley, 21 H-U-N-T-L-E-Y. 22 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 23 24 ROBERT HUNTLEY, Sworn 25
131 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I would 2 firstly refer Officer Huntley to the document that 3 appears at page 1 of the book of documents or the brief 4 of documents in front of you. 5 6 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: I wonder if you might just turn to 8 that first tab if you would please. It's Inquiry 9 Document 2005563. And do you -- do you recognize that 10 document, sir? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: And that is a copy of your curriculum 13 vitae is it not? 14 A: It is. 15 Q: Perhaps we can have that marked as 16 the first exhibit this morning? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1425, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1425: Document Number 2005563. 20 Curriculum Vitae of Robert C. 21 Huntley. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Just before I move into that actual 25 document with you, Officer, perhaps I can ask you to
141 refer to the document at Tab 26 as well; that's Inquiry 2 Document 2003598. Do you see that document? 3 A: Yes, I have it. 4 Q: And am I correct in assuming that 5 that -- that that document is a summary again of some of 6 those items that appear in your curriculum vitae? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: Yeah. And it would appear the second 9 page of that is a hand -- handwritten version of that 10 same document, I take it that's yours as well? 11 A: It's a handwritten document, it's not 12 my handwriting though. 13 Q: It's not your hand? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Do you recognize in any 16 event the transcription of that on the first page of that 17 particular document? 18 A: Yes, it's a summary of my career so 19 far? 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Up to '96. 22 Q: And perhaps we can mark that as the 23 next exhibit as well please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-1426, Your Honour. 25
151 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1426: Document Number 2003598. 2 Personal information re. 3 Robert Clifford Huntley and 4 handwritten version of same, 5 April 1997. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 8 Q: And turning then to your curriculum 9 vitae, sir, I see that presently you are the Sergeant and 10 Shift Supervisor at Bruce Peninsula Detachment? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And in the time that we are concerned 13 with here, that is in September of 1995, you were a 14 Sergeant and Shift Supervisor for the Owen Sound 15 Detachment? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Prior to that your career history 18 would indicate that from '89 to June of 1992, you were 19 the Sergeant and Detachment Commander at the Virginiatown 20 Detachment? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: I take it where it indicates that in 23 May of '81 to March of 1989 you were a Provincial 24 Constable at Essex Detachment, that is when you would 25 have first joined the Ontario Provincial Police?
161 A: I was. 2 Q: All right. And just by way of some 3 of your training, in 1987 you completed the Tactics and 4 Rescue Recruit Course, is that right? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And I wonder if you might just tell 7 us briefly, sir, what that consisted of; that particular 8 course? 9 A: That course was a two (2) week course 10 I believe of, a selection course, for candidates who want 11 to become TRU members. 12 Q: Okay. In 1998 you completed the 13 Tactics and Rescue Recruit Course Part 'A' Containment 14 Training? 15 A: That's -- that's correct. That was a 16 five (5) week course training the -- the members who 17 passed the selection course in Containment Training. 18 Q: All right. And am I correct in -- in 19 my understanding that containment was -- is one of the 20 elements of the ERT or the Emergency Response Team? 21 A: It is. 22 Q: And I understand, sir, that you had 23 some involvement in setting up the ERT program for the 24 district that you would have then been assigned to; 25 that's Number 6 District, is it?
171 A: That's -- that's correct, yes. 2 Q: And you were responsible for setting 3 up the ERT? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And would you tell us about that 6 briefly please? 7 A: Well our team consisted of sixteen 8 (16) members. It was a new program in the -- the 9 district and I was asked to select the members for 10 training in the fall of '93. 11 Q: And the district that would have been 12 -- or the region that was covered by the Number 6 13 District of which as I understand it you were the team 14 leader -- 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: -- correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the region that was covered by 19 Number 6 District? 20 A: Our area of responsibility was Huron, 21 Bruce, Grey, Wellington and Perth counties. So it was a 22 five (5) county area. 23 Q: I see. And you wouldn't come down to 24 Ipperwash necessarily? 25 A: That -- that wasn't in my area, no.
181 Q: All right. Thank you. And I 2 understand that aside from taking the containment 3 training, that you then had subsequent occasion to do the 4 training -- 5 A: That's -- 6 Q: -- that is, perform the training from 7 among the sixteen (16) members that you would have chosen 8 or selected. 9 A: That -- that's correct. After we did 10 our five (5) week course in the fall of '93 which 11 included two (2) weeks of containment training, two (2) 12 weeks of search and rescue training, a week of K-9 backup 13 and VIP security, I was asked to assist with training 14 other ERT teams in the containment portion of that. 15 Q: Okay. Was part of the containment 16 portion of that a part and parcel of the Crowd Management 17 course that you would have taken in 1994? 18 A: No. That was -- 19 Q: That was additional training? 20 A: That -- that's correct. 21 Q: And can you tell us about that again 22 briefly, sir, the Crowd Management course that you would 23 have taken in 1994? 24 A: That was a week long course and I 25 took it with Number 3 District team in '94.
191 Q: And I take it part of that would have 2 included becoming familiar with the various tactics that 3 would be employed by the Crowd Management Unit? 4 A: That -- that's correct. 5 Q: All right. You've indicated the 6 region, sir, that was policed by the Number 6 -- or that 7 was contained within the Number 6 District, did you have 8 any experience in policing First Nations communities in 9 that region? 10 A: No, I didn't. 11 Q: I understand that you did have some 12 experience in dealing with an incident at Liskeard Lumber 13 Road which was a -- a blockage of the road as I 14 understand? 15 A: That's correct, when I was in 16 Northern Ontario worked in Virginiatown. 17 Q: And red the -- what's known as the 18 Red Squirrel Road incident? 19 A: The -- yeah, it was Liskeard -- 20 Liskeard Lumber Road blockade in the Red Squirrel Road. 21 Q: I see. And the capacity that you 22 would have attended there? 23 A: I was there in charge of a team and 24 we would respond to demonstrators, protestors, blocking 25 the road.
201 Q: All right. Can you tell us how that 2 particular situation was resolved? 3 A: I don't recall how it was resolved. 4 I -- I spent a couple of weeks there but I don't remember 5 how it was resolved. 6 Q: All right. And in the couple of 7 weeks there was there any contact with the -- with the 8 persons that were blocking the road? 9 A: I remember one (1) incident where we 10 had to go and remove demonstrators. 11 Q: Okay. And was there -- were there 12 any incidents of violence that you can recall in that 13 particular -- out of that particular incident? 14 A: No, not -- not that I was involved 15 in. 16 Q: Okay. I understand that you had some 17 awareness of the issues involving Ipperwash and the Army 18 Camp prior to September of 1995? 19 A: Yes, very limited. 20 Q: Yeah. Perhaps you can just describe 21 that for us and where you would have obtained that 22 awareness? 23 A: In I believe it was July, late July 24 early August of '93 prior to my team being actually 25 trained, we had the members identified but they weren't
211 trained, I received a call to attend down in Centralia 2 because they had an incident where a helicopter was shot 3 at. 4 Q: Okay. I take it you have some 5 independent recollection of this event? 6 A: Yes, we -- we didn't have very much 7 involvement. We went to Centralia, we stood by there, 8 and we were non -- I might have -- I might be mistaken on 9 that. I don't think we were even activated to go down 10 there. I'm confusing that with another incident. 11 Q: All right. But I take it that as 12 part of that you would have been informed that there were 13 some issues surrounding the Army Base? 14 A: Yes, I -- I was aware there were some 15 issues. 16 Q: Okay. And do you recall what those 17 issues are today, sir? 18 A: Not necessarily. 19 Q: All right. And perhaps I can ask you 20 to turn to the document at Tab 2 in the brief of 21 documents in front of you? 22 It's Inquiry Document 2005605 and it would 23 appear to be a number of pages photocopied from a 24 notebook. There's a copy of your card there. 25 You're with me on that?
221 A: Yes. 2 Q: And those are copies of your notes 3 from the period of time that's indicated? 4 A: They are. 5 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the next 6 exhibit? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1427, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1427: Document Number 2005605. 10 Handwritten notebook entries 11 of Robert C. Huntley, July 30 12 - September 27, 1995. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: And if I can just have you look at 16 the first page of that; that would appear to be August of 17 1995, a Thursday. Is that -- is that August 1st? 18 A: It is. 19 Q: And... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: I'm looking at the first page of the 24 document at Tab Number 2, it would appear to have a 25 number 72 at the bottom. Are we on the same page --
231 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- Officer? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Can you tell me what date 5 that is at -- at the top? 6 A: That's the, I believe, the 1st of 7 August. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. And the entry at 9 11:00 hours, I wonder if you might just read that for us 10 please? 11 A: "I was at my residence for a break. 12 Call from Inspector Carson requesting I 13 attend Forest Detachment ASAP for a 14 briefing." 15 Q: And did you attend for a briefing on 16 that particular date? 17 A: I did. 18 Q: And if we turn you over to the next 19 page of August the 1st there's an entry at 18:30 hours; 20 you meet with Sergeant Graham. And at 19:30 met and 21 briefed ERT at -- is that Cen...? 22 A: Centralia College. 23 Q: All right. And it would appear that 24 you went off duty at 02:00 hours? 25 A: That's correct.
241 Q: All right. And when you indicated 2 that you were simply put on standby in relation to the 3 helicopter shooting that you understood had taken place 4 this is the notes that correspond to that? 5 A: No, this '95. I believe the 6 helicopter incident was '93. 7 Q: Okay. I'm sorry. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: This particular briefing in August of 12 '95, can you recall what that is -- what that was about? 13 A: There is -- I recall there was an 14 incident at the -- the Army Camp Base at Ipperwash where 15 the Base was taken over by some occupiers at the Base. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And we were asked to stand by at 18 Centralia in case there were any problems. 19 Q: And what was the role that -- that 20 when you say "we", you're referring to the Number 6 21 District ERT? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And what role were you to play as you 24 were standing by? 25 A: I don't recall an exact role for us
251 at the time. 2 Q: Okay. If we look at your notes from 3 August the 3rd to the 7th, can you turn over to page 74. 4 To your page 74 in -- in the -- it's the third page in on 5 Exhibit 1427. The date at the top of the page 93 August 6 '95. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And this would be the -- the time 9 period that you had remained on standby as you've 10 indicated. 11 A: No. We were -- on the 1st of August 12 we were there at Centralia for a short time and I believe 13 we went back home after that. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And then the 2nd of August I returned 16 down to the Ipperwash area at the Pinery Park, had my 17 team there and that was on the 2nd of August. 18 Q: Go ahead, just continue if you would 19 please. 20 A: Oh, okay. 21 Q: On the 3rd of August you again are 22 still on duty at Ipperwash at 06:00. 23 A: So the 2nd of August -- we were 24 there. The 3rd of August our team was still there. And 25 I believe we were there until the 7th of August.
261 Q: And during the period of that, from 2 the 3rd to the 7th of August, your duty was to do foot 3 patrols and to simply maintain public safety. 4 A: Main -- yeah, public safety, the 5 peace at Ipperwash Provincial Park. 6 Q: All right. In looking at your notes, 7 Officer, you'll agree with me that virtually every one of 8 the notations in that period you've just referred to, 9 that is the 3rd to the 7th, really there was no incidents 10 that were -- were reported. 11 In fact your notes would indicate no 12 incidents. 13 A: Yeah. There's -- nothing that stands 14 out in my mind. Before I go further, do you want -- 15 could I -- could I refer to my original notes? This -- 16 Q: Certainly. Those are -- those -- 17 A: Those are copies. 18 Q: -- these are copies of your original 19 notes are they not? 20 A: These are copies. But it's -- they 21 are but, I think my notes -- my original notes would be a 22 little easier to read for me. 23 Q: And sir, at -- on the 7th of August 24 you -- after you went off duty, it would appear that you 25 then left, the entry at 12:00 hours of 10-8, for home.
271 Is that what that reads? I'm looking at the entry at the 2 7th of August '95. 3 A: Yes, at twelve o'clock. 4 Q: And then on the next page which is 5 your page 82, sir, at the bottom of -- 15th of August, 6 Tuesday at 14:00 hours, it looks like you travelled back 7 to Pinery Park. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Do you see that at the bottom of page 12 82? 13 A: Yes, that's correct. I travelled to 14 Pinery Park -- 15 Q: And if you go to the -- 16 A: -- on that day. 17 Q: -- if you go to the top of page 83 it 18 looks like you were briefed or travelled rather or 19 arrived -- pardon me, at 17:30 hours at Pinery. 20 And then you do patrol at Ipperwash. And 21 there's an incident that you record at 20:43 hours and 22 on. Can you see that? 23 A: Yes, I do. At 20:43 hours there was 24 a large bonfire at the -- right at the -- where Matheson 25 Drive and the Army Camp Base. I believe that's where it
281 was. 2 Q: And your notes indicate and I'll just 3 read this for you: 4 "At 20:43 a large bonfire at beach on 5 Indian side." 6 Right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when you -- when you write 9 "Indian side" what -- what do you mean by that? 10 A: I -- I was referring to the Base, the 11 Military Base. 12 Q: And then you go on to indicate that 13 there were three (3) separate people who approached, 14 concerned for their safety. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And I -- 17 A: I -- I don't really have an 18 independent recollection of that; that's in my notes. 19 Q: All right. And there aren't any 20 names in there and there aren't any concerns as to what 21 those concerns were that are noted? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And because you have no 24 independent recollection I take it you can't tell us 25 anything beyond what's indicated there?
291 A: No, not really. 2 Q: All right. Thank you. And then the 3 notation for the 16th of August, Wednesday, you come on 4 duty at 19:00 hours; that's 7:00 p.m.? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And again you're doing patrol at the 7 -- in the Ipperwash Provincial Park area? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: All right. And I see that there is 10 an entry at 22:45 hours where: 11 "A female camper approach and advise a 12 Native male wearing shorts, white "T", 13 ball cap and ponytail. Asked her what 14 she thought of what was going -- going 15 on over the -- at the Base. He then 16 ran off when we walked up." 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And then at the top of the next page, 21 sir, on page 84: 22 "We watched vehicle on Indian side." 23 A: I -- I just -- just -- when we pulled 24 up. I don't know if I -- you said "walked up." I don't 25 know if we --
301 Q: Oh, pardon me, yes. 2 A: -- were driving or -- or walking at 3 that time because we did both. 4 Q: All right. Thank you your correcting 5 that for me. 6 Just on the next page then you have 7 another incident that you're referring to; is this a 8 subsequent incident or is the part of the -- 9 A: Yes, it's the same. I -- I noted 10 that there was a vehicle on the Indian side, Matheson 11 Drive, move around. 12 Q: Right? 13 A: And I observed a -- a male person 14 walking down by the water in Ipperwash Park and he let 15 out a couple loud yells. I stopped him to see what he 16 was doing; he was a -- a Native male. He just tried to 17 walk by me, just completely ignored me. So I tried to 18 talk to him, find out who he was. 19 I had another couple of officers with me 20 and then I believe it was the people from this vehicle 21 that was driving around approached us. They seemed very 22 angry. There was one (1) young fellow who was swearing 23 at us and telling us to leave his friend alone and let 24 him go. 25 One (1) of those males had a -- a length
311 of pipe in his one (1) hand and he had a beer bottle in 2 the other hand and I noted in my notes or in the reports 3 that he was intoxicated. 4 They were very angry with us. They wanted 5 us to let their friend go. They did go back to -- off 6 the Park property, Provincial Park property, and onto 7 Matheson Drive. My purpose there was to keep the peace. 8 I didn't want to escalate things. They were very angry. 9 They were yelling and shouting at us from -- from that 10 side so I decided I was going to release this -- this 11 young fellow and take him back to the friends and take 12 that as an opportunity to talk to these guys. 13 After -- they were still yelling at us, 14 swearing at us, calling us names and we were able -- I 15 was able to talk to the one (1) fellow by the name of 16 Mark Bressette and he was -- I note he was the most 17 reasonable of -- of them all and he told us -- at one (1) 18 point in time he told us he was on patrol, that's why he 19 had the pipe and he wouldn't put the pipe down when he 20 first approached us so I just got him to take a step 21 back. 22 He wouldn't put the pipe down. We told 23 him to put it down; he wouldn't put it down and then they 24 left so we walked back to them. I just have to refer to 25 my notes as to exactly what...
321 I -- I remember telling them that their 2 problem wasn't with us because I -- I felt that all their 3 anger was directed towards the police and I -- I told him 4 it wasn't -- his problem wasn't with us and he did talk 5 to us. He did mention, you guys will be gone in a couple 6 of weeks and the Park will be ours. 7 He also -- one (1) of the officers that 8 was with me, Jamie Stirling, after some conversation he 9 wanted to talk -- he wanted to shake Jamie Stirling's 10 hand. Jamie wouldn't do it until he put the pipe down. 11 He did put the pipe down and they shook hands. So we got 12 a bit of a rapport with them. 13 And then he told us that we better leave 14 before he's seen talking to us, that would be considered 15 neg -- neglect of duty. 16 Q: And what -- what did he mean by that? 17 What did you take from that? That if you were seen 18 talking to him it would be neglect of duty. 19 A: What I took from that was I didn't 20 think he wanted any occupiers because I -- I -- I believe 21 I -- they were from the Base, any occupiers to see him 22 talking to the police. 23 Q: And neglect of duty. What was that 24 in reference to? 25 A: That -- that was the term that he
331 used. 2 Q: I see. The information that he 3 provided to you; "That you guys will be gone in a couple 4 of weeks and the Park will be ours." What did you do 5 with that information? 6 A: I completed a -- a report at the end 7 of my shift and passed that along, left that at Forest, I 8 believe, Forest Detachment. 9 Q: And I understand that you had some 10 role in creating a form, an Operational Report, 11 specifically to this tour of duty if I can put it that 12 way. 13 A: I did. 14 Q: If I can ask you to refer to the 15 document at Tab 4. It's Inquiry Document 2000785 and it 16 bears the heading 'Emergency Response Team Number 6 17 District, Mount Forest Operational Report'. 18 Is this the form that you would have been 19 instrumental in preparing? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And is this a document that you would 22 have prepared, sir. It's a single page document. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I see that your name is on there as 25 ERT member.
341 A: Yeah. And that -- that's -- this 2 document was for the officers to record any -- anything 3 that happened in the Park that -- that they thought was 4 noteworthy and to pass it along. 5 Q: All right. And just the details in - 6 - would indicate include time of any incidents. And you 7 have written in there the incident that we've already 8 reviewed from your notes at 20:40 hours, that is the 9 three (3) males having a bonfire by the beach. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the next 12 exhibit please. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1428, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1428: Document Number 2000785. 16 Emergency Response Team - 17 Operational Report - 18 Handwritten (Huntley, Dave 19 Smith) August 15, 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: Similarly, sir, if you turn over to 23 the document at Tab 5. It's Inquiry Document 2000789. 24 That is an Operational Report of -- of the same nature 25 and kind as we've just reviewed dated September the 16th,
351 1995, yes? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And this simply details again, the 4 information that you've just testified to from your 5 notes? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And I take it that these Operational 8 Reports would contain perhaps more information than does 9 your -- your notebook? 10 A: Yes. That -- I'd want to provide as 11 much information for the following shifts -- for the 12 other officers as possible that I may not have recorded 13 in my notes. 14 Q: Okay. Perhaps we can mark this as 15 the next exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1429, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1429: Document Number 2000789. 19 Emergency Response Team - 20 Handwritten Operational 21 Report (Huntley, Dave Smith) 22 August 16, 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: And if I can just ask you to turn to
361 the second page of that document; that's the document at 2 Tab 5, Officer Huntley. I see that you've indicated that 3 what you've just testified to, that Bressette was 4 intoxicated but was the most reasonable. 5 He advised us to leave before he was 6 caught talking to us which would be quote, "Neglect of 7 duty", unquote, yes? 8 A: I'm just looking -- that was on page 9 2? Okay. I found it. Yes. 10 Q: And you also have the incident as 11 well recorded there that you've just testified to. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: I just want to take you down to the 14 next incident that you have indicated there at 00:30 15 hours, 17th of August, the Monte Carlo arrives with a 16 noisy muffler. 17 Perhaps you can just tell us what happened 18 there, if you would. 19 A: I think just prior to that something 20 else happened. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: It was -- after they had left, a 23 group of about ten (10) male Natives arrived in a car and 24 they were yelling. I better find that here. 25 Q: If you can go to the --
371 A: Okay. I found it here. 2 Q: -- middle of page 2. 3 A: More Natives, I wrote in here, showed 4 up and parked just inside the -- the Base. Ten (10) plus 5 people were there at any one time. 6 And then at 12:30 on the 17th of August a 7 Monte Carlo showed up with a noisy muffler. I was using 8 night vision to watch it and I could see the driver's arm 9 extended out the window and holding something long; I 10 don't know what it was. 11 The vehicles that were down there left 12 shortly after and I parked -- I parked down the road with 13 Constable Smith at -- there was a -- a store on Army Camp 14 Road and we were parked there and -- and the same Monte 15 Carlo drove by and shone a light at us as we were sitting 16 there. 17 Q: All right. Just continue with page 3 18 of your report if you would please, sir? 19 A: I noted in here: 20 "Natives are using youths on bicycles 21 to gather intelligence in the Park, 22 probably about us. Two (2) youths with 23 -- were observed riding bicycles back 24 to the Base along Army Camp Road." 25 And -- and what that involves is we would
381 see youths come into the Park, just ride around the Park 2 and then leave again and the impression I got was they 3 were trying to locate the police or see how many of us 4 were there. Whatever their reason I just felt they were 5 -- they were keeping an eye on us. 6 Q: All right. Just continue on. You 7 have another notation with an asterisk beside it and I'm 8 interested in -- in having you tell us about that. 9 A: Yeah. What I've -- what I wrote here 10 that is after working two (2) night shifts I'd come to 11 the conclusion these Natives are looking for a 12 confrontation with police; they are provoking 13 confrontation and -- and our people must be cautioned not 14 to let themselves get drawn in to one. 15 And -- and what I base that on was -- was 16 the -- mainly the incident with Mark Bressette and Steven 17 Cloud. I wanted the officers to -- to realize what they 18 may encounter and that's being yelled at, there were 19 spotlights on us in the Park, horns being honked. 20 Certainly it was -- I was really concerned when the one 21 (1) fellow came to us with the pipe in his hand as we 22 were dealing with his friend. 23 So I --I wanted to make sure the other 24 officers knew that they could -- they may encounter this 25 kind of behaviour and make sure that they -- they don't
391 get drawn into anything. I guess the purpose was to keep 2 the peace and that -- that wasn't -- we didn't want to 3 escalate it. 4 Q: All right. Can I ask you to turn 5 back to your notes at Tab 2 and turn to your page 97? 6 That is the entries again at the top of the page for the 7 balance of the early morning hours of 17th of August? It 8 would appear that you went off duty at 03:00 or three 9 o'clock in the early morning of the 17th -- the 16th -- 10 17th. Pardon me, yes. 11 A: 17th of September did you say my -- 12 Q: 17th. 13 A: Okay. What -- what page is that? 14 Q: Page 97. 15 A: On the 17th of August? 16 Q: I -- I'm sorry, I'm -- I stand 17 corrected. I believe I might have said August, I mean 18 September. 19 A: Oh, okay. 20 Q: I -- I do mean August, yes. I might 21 have said September. Sorry, I had that wrong, 22 Commissioner, I'm even confusing myself. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
401 A: I'm sorry, Mr. Worme, what -- what -- 2 Q: Page 97. 3 A: Page 97. 4 Q: The 17th of August. You went off 5 duty at three o'clock in the morning and it would appear 6 that you came -- 7 A: I -- 8 Q: -- back on duty at 14:00 hours at... 9 A: I think that might be page 87. 10 Q: I think you're right. 11 A: Okay. On the 17th of August I went 12 off duty at three o'clock in the morning. That would be 13 the 18th of August I went off duty at three o'clock in 14 the morning. And then on page 88 I started work on the 15 18th of August. 16 Q: Okay. If I can just take you back to 17 the -- to the earlier page which you've correctly 18 indicated was page 87 it would seem that if you go to the 19 middle of the top of -- the top portion of your -- of 20 your booklet, sir, 17th August '95, Thursday? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Right? And at 14:00 hours you come 23 back on duty to do patrols at Ipperwash? 24 A: My writing may not -- it's not always 25 the best. I think that's 19:00 hours.
411 Q: All right. Thank you. 2 A: That would be my writing. 3 Q: And at 19:56 hours it looks like you 4 were -- perhaps you can just tell us what that says? 5 A: Okay. Attend at Park at -- 6 Q: And I should just warn you, before 7 you go on, that there's a name there that's been 8 obliterated at the -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- bottom of the page. So I'd ask 11 you not to read that name -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- into the record. 14 A: At 19:56, which would be 5:56, or I 15 should say 7:56 p.m., 19:56: 16 "Attended the Park where I was met by - 17 - by an employee of the Park who 18 reported to me that a camper had 19 altercation with two (2) Indians. They 20 were hiding in a bush waiting for the 21 camper, so he told me. 22 We went on patrol and we couldn't find 23 the complainant who had spoken to the - 24 - to the Park attendant but we did run 25 into the Park Warden who advised he had
421 chased two (2) youths out of the -- out 2 of the Park onto their land." 3 Like I say, I don't know who the 4 complainant was. We patrolled around, nobody approached 5 us and there was no further action on that. 6 Q: And perhaps I can just have you look 7 at your actual recording in your book at page 87. Park 8 warden and the name is blanked out. 9 And you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but it 10 seems to read: 11 "Chased two (2)..." 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: "... Indians into their land." 14 A: That's -- that's what it says. 15 Q: Onto their land? 16 A: That's what I wrote, chased two (2) 17 Indians onto their land. 18 Q: And you recall it being two (2) 19 youths, I take it, from your testimony just a moment ago. 20 A: Just -- it seems to me it was two (2) 21 kids. 22 Q: All right. And if I can ask you to 23 turn to the document at Tab 6, please. It's Inquiry 24 document 2000792, which is a further operational report 25 of the 17th of August, '95.
431 A: Yes. 2 Q: And again, this is simply a further 3 recording in the operational report of the incident that 4 you've just recorded in your notes and I've just had you 5 review. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: All right. And at the end of the day 8 there was no victim, I take it, identified or no 9 complainant? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And I take it that there was no -- no 12 formal complaint as a result of that as well? 13 A: No, there wasn't. 14 Q: If I can just ask you to look at the 15 last part of that operational report on page 2, sir. 16 Do you see where it reads: 17 "When we first arrived at the Park, we 18 heard a few war cries from the base. 19 This continued sporadically throughout 20 the night but no other incidents." 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: I was going to ask you about that. 23 What does that refer to, war cries -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- and that sort of thing?
441 A: The war cries, I guess that was the 2 language that I used back then and what that meant to me 3 was a loud yell, just a very loud, top of the lungs yell 4 and we used to hear that coming from the -- the base side 5 quite regularly. 6 Q: Can I ask that that be marked as the 7 next exhibit, please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1430, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1430: Document Number 2000792. 11 Emergency Response Team - 12 Handwritten Operational 13 Report (Huntley, Dave Smith) 14 August 17, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: If we can go back to your notes 18 again, sir, for the entries for August 18th or 18th of 19 August, '95 which is a Friday. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You're on duty at 19:00 hours and off 22 duty at 03:00 again? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. And when you're off duty 25 there's -- the notation is without incident? Is that
451 what that stands for? 2 A: That's correct. So nothing I felt 3 noteworthy. 4 Q: All right. And there's a document 5 that corresponds to that, I'm going to suggest to you, at 6 Tab number 7, being an operational report for that same 7 date. 8 And again, it simply says "no occurrences 9 in the Park, all quiet." 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And that is your document? 12 A: No, I didn't write that. 13 Q: It would appear, sir, in looking back 14 to your notes at Tab number 2, on the 19th of August you 15 come on duty at 08:00 hours, that is at 8:00 a.m. in the 16 morning, clean up and then depart for home. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: On the 19th of August, yes. At 21 eleven o'clock I left. 22 Q: All right. If I may just ask that 23 the document that I referred the Witness to at Tab Number 24 7 Inquiry Document 20009 -- 797 rather be marked as the 25 next exhibit?
461 THE REGISTRAR: P-1431, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1431: Document Number 2000797. 4 Emergency Response Team - 5 Handwritten Operational 6 Report (Sgt R. Huntley, S/C 7 D.E. Smith) August 18, 1995. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Sir, the next entries in your 11 notebook which we have at Tab Number 2 are August the 12 27th of 1995, that is your notes in relation to the 13 Ipperwash matter. And I'm sorry I can't refer you to a - 14 - a page number but I think it might be your page 95? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Yes, I found it here. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And -- 23 A: I was back at Ipperwash. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Or back at Pinery Park.
471 Q: On the 27th and the 28th of August, 2 1995? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes? If you turn over to your page 5 96 you're on duty as well on the 29th and 30th of August 6 and evidently there are no incidents to report? 7 A: That's -- that's correct. 8 Q: And similarly with respect to August 9 31st there's nothing remarkable in your notes? 10 A: No, I was working the day shift at 11 that time. 12 Q: Okay. At the bottom of that page, 13 sir, it starts 01 September '95, Friday and at 08:00 14 hours attend a meeting in London? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And this was a meeting in relation to 19 Project Maple was it not? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And can you tell us what the purpose 22 of that meeting was, what part you played in that 23 meeting, if any? 24 A: Well, that was a -- a meeting that 25 all -- a number of different people were involved in, ERT
481 being one (1) group, and it was a planning session for 2 the anticipated takeover of Ipperwash Park. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And it was what our roles would be if 5 that happened. 6 Q: And can I ask you to turn to the two 7 (2) pages at Tab Number 9? There are two (2) handwritten 8 pages; it would appear to be the notation at the top 01 9 September '95? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And the first notation: 12 "Objective to contain and negotiate a 13 peaceful resolution." 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: All right. Are these your notes 16 first of all? 17 A: These are my notes. 18 Q: Perhaps we can mark that as the next 19 Exhibit, 1432? 20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1432: Handwritten notebook entries 23 of Rob Huntley, September 01, 24 1995. 25
491 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: And if I can ask you just to look 3 while you're looking at those two (2) notes, Officer 4 Huntley, to the document at the next tab, that is Tab 10 5 and you'll see that it's been marked as Inquiry Document 6 3000574 but it's also an Exhibit, P-421. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And we see your name there, Sergeant 9 R. Huntley? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. And the objective in the 12 second line to contain and negotiate a peaceful 13 resolution, that corresponds to your notes? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: There's just a couple of questions 16 that I want to ask you with respect to this document. 17 We've had evidence on it and had others who were in 18 attendance at this meeting testify to it. 19 If you turn to the second page of that and 20 if you go right to the -- right to the -- to the third 21 full paragraph where it reads: 22 "Concern should be -- arise now, not 23 after the fact, in the event of an 24 inquest." 25 Do you recall that specifically being
501 raised during the course of the meeting? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: And if you can go down just a couple 4 of paragraphs do you see the paragraph that reads: 5 "Concern of OPP personnel being boxed 6 in Provincial Park?" 7 A: I don't recall that. 8 Q: You don't recall that as well? Thank 9 you. 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: And if I can just refer you lastly to 12 the -- I wish these pages were numbered but you'll see 13 the -- the page that bears the front number ending in 14 4145 at the top of the page? The first sentence is: 15 "Responsibility is ongoing." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: "Could be a major drain of our 18 resources." 19 Do you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And then the fourth full paragraph, 22 it starts: 23 "If ERT goes in and they will take the 24 place. We will move at least two (2) 25 ERT team units inside the perimeter of
511 the Park." 2 Do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And is that what the role of 5 the ERT was at least at this particular stage? 6 A: I don't really recall that. 7 Q: But certainly it would appear that 8 there was a presence inside the Park that contemplated. 9 At least at this stage on September the 1st. 10 A: That's -- that's what that would say 11 to me, yes. 12 Q: Okay. And if we can just go down two 13 (2) paragraphs, see where it starts: 14 "Even if this is peaceful, the best we 15 could hope for is to see a Court Order 16 twenty-four (24) hours later." 17 And do you recall any specific discussion 18 about the obtaining of some kind of injunctive relief? 19 A: My understanding was if the Park was 20 taken over by occupiers, that the Ministry of Natural 21 Resources would try to get a court injunction to have 22 them removed. 23 Q: And specifically do you recall there 24 being any discussion about the timeline or -- or how long 25 this might take?
521 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. Can I ask you to turn then to 3 the next page? It's front number, ending 4146. 4 Do you see the second paragraph there? It 5 reads: 6 "The reason we are getting the 7 injunction as it gives us all the 8 Criminal Code charges. MNR is 9 literally prepared to go into court at 10 a minute's notice. MNR has clear 11 title." 12 I take it that that's the discussion you 13 had just referred to. 14 A: Yeah. I -- I know the -- all I 15 recall is their mention of a -- a court injunction. 16 Q: All right. And do you recall any 17 discussion, sir, about there being the possibility of a 18 burial park -- burial ground rather, in the Park? 19 Do you recall that being raised at all 20 during the course of this meeting? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And if you go just down to the second 23 last paragraph, at the bottom of the page, do you see 24 where it starts "Crime [dash] - Randy." 25 A: Yes.
531 Q: And then your name is mentioned there 2 in the second sentence, do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I take it that that was part of the 5 duties that would have been assigned to you or to assist 6 in ident in the event that there was anybody arrested. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And if I can ask you lastly, 9 sir, to turn to the final page of that document. It 10 bears front number 4148 at the top. You'll see your name 11 appears at the second full paragraph. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you just tell us about that, 14 sir? About what you recall of -- of raising a concern? 15 A: Yeah. There was concern -- what -- 16 what we wanted to do is we were planning for a peaceful 17 takeover of the Park. And once a court injunction was 18 obtained, then we may have to take action on removing the 19 people from the Park. 20 And what we wanted to do was contain it to 21 prevent other people from coming in and -- and causing 22 problems for us. And I felt that we should be -- we 23 should in order to do that, we needed to control Matheson 24 Drive. 25 Q: All right. Perhaps I can ask you to
541 turn back then to the document I referred to you earlier 2 Tab Number 9 and I would ask that be marked as the next 3 exhibit please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 9 is already an 5 exhibit, P-1432. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab Number 9 7 is Exhibit 1432. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: And just at the bottom of your 12 handwritten notes, it says "Block off Matheson Drive?" 13 That again is simply a reflection of the 14 concern that you raised at the September 1st meeting? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Okay. If we go to the next page of 17 that, I wonder if you could just help us out here. The 18 entry at 10:45 hours, is that "resume meeting"? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: Then "talked to", is that, "Sergeant 21 Quinn"? 22 A: I believe that's Sergeant Quinn. 23 Q: All right. "Re. Crowd Mana -- 24 Manage." And I take it that's CMU. 25 A: That's correct.
551 Q: All right. "Operational list" would 2 be a reference to those officers that would actually be 3 activated. 4 A: Yes. Anything else we'd need. 5 Q: And what does that next entry say, 6 sir? 7 A: It says "Stick". That -- that was a 8 reference to one of my guys on the team. 9 "Why wasn't Glenn George arrested?" 10 And I really don't recall too much about 11 that, why I wrote it down there. 12 Q: All right. And the next entry at 13 11:15? 14 A: "Meet with Korosec, Van Damme, McLean 15 and Tex Deane, TRU." 16 Q: Okay. And do you recall anything 17 about that meeting, sir? 18 A: What -- after we had the initial 19 briefing, the members went to their assigned groups and 20 those are the team leaders of the three (3) other ERT 21 teams that were involved in this and Ken Deane from TRU, 22 and our role was to -- to come back to the Incident 23 Commander with a plan on how we were going to contain -- 24 contain the area. 25 Q: I see. And the last entry there:
561 "Soft ID. 2460-9." 2 What does that mean? 3 A: I believe that would be a call sign 4 for one of the cruisers. 5 Q: I'm sorry? 6 A: That would be a call sign for the -- 7 in the operation. 8 Q: All right, thank you. Moving back to 9 your notes then, sir, at Tab 2, Exhibit 1427. 10 Your notation at page 96, that's what we 11 just went over that you attended this meeting in London 12 and you've now told us from both your notes as well as 13 from Exhibit 421 your recollections of that meeting. 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: I take it you had no further activity 16 in relation to Ipperwash on that day? 17 A: No, I didn't. 18 Q: And can you tell us then when your 19 next involvement would be in the Ipperwash matter? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Perhaps I can have you refer to your 24 page 1. I take it you would have started a new book on 25 or about the 4th of September?
571 A: Yes. At -- on the 4th of September, 2 at ten o'clock at night, 22:00, I received a call from 3 Brad Henderson who was a Sergeant in our Communications 4 Centre, putting my team on standby. 5 Q: Do you have an independent 6 recollection, sir, of receiving this call and the reason 7 why you would be put on standby? 8 A: No, not really. I don't recall him 9 telling me what -- I don't -- I don't specifically 10 remember too much of that conversation except that we're 11 on standby and get the team ready in case we had to go 12 down to Ipperwash. 13 Q: All right. And you know from the 14 earlier planning meeting that there was some prospect 15 that the Park might be occupied as of the end of that 16 long weekend? 17 A: Yeah. Well, I found that out through 18 -- I must have talked to him, because I knew the Park was 19 occupied, they had occupied the Park. 20 And -- and I also knew that violence was 21 used to occupy the Park. 22 Q: And we'll come to your notes in a 23 moment. If I can just ask you to look at page 2 of your 24 notebook entry for September the 4th of 1995. 25 A: Yes.
581 Q: And this is after you've been alerted 2 that you want to have your members ready and be on 3 standby. Do you see where it indicates: 4 "Advised DHQ." 5 I take it that's District Headquarters. 6 "All members except Upton who is 7 preparing for his...?" 8 A: European trip. 9 Q: "European trip." All right. 10 A: So I'd -- back then we didn't have 11 pagers, so I would have to call all the members and put 12 them on standby. 13 Q: And again, you would have had fifteen 14 (15) officers for this? 15 A: Including myself, yes. 16 Q: Including yourself. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And typically it would have been 19 sixteen (16) but for the one (1) officer who was going on 20 a trip somewhere else? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Right. Your notes would appear to 23 continue then, at September the 5th into the next -- the 24 next morning? 25 A: Yes. At one o'clock I get called by
591 the Comms Centre and advised that we were required to be 2 at Forest Detachment for -- for seven o'clock in the 3 morning. I called all the members back and at 2:30 in 4 the morning I left or I should say 2:30 in the morning I 5 got to the detachment and at 3:30 in the morning I left 6 for Ipperwash with Constables Smith and Westcott and I 7 arrived at Forest Detachment at 6:30 in the morning. 8 Q: And I -- and I note that just at the 9 end of that entry at 06:30 hours it says: 10 "10-7 Forest." 11 That confirms you arrived there? 12 A: Hmm hmm. That's correct. 13 Q: And then it says: 14 "See binder notes." 15 I wonder if you would just tell us about - 16 - about that if you would please? 17 A: Yeah. What I -- I started to do when 18 I -- when I went to the planning meeting on the 1st was 19 use a binder. And my plan was to use the binder 20 throughout the rest of the Ipperwash incident just to 21 keep all my notes together and so I started that on the 22 1st. 23 And then this night on the 4th when I was 24 called out I -- I put my notes in here and -- and I can 25 only assume that I -- because I had this -- this book
601 available and then when I got down to Forest I took my 2 binder notes which I intended on using for all my 3 Ipperwash notes and I just pretty well transcribed that - 4 - that first page into here and then I started using the 5 binder notes. 6 Q: Can I ask you to turn to the 7 documents at Tab 11 please, sir. It's Inquiry Document 8 2005418. There's two (2) pages there, yes? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: The first page is copied from your 11 notebook from September the 5th of 1995? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. And the second page of 14 that? 15 A: And that is the binder notes that I 16 started as of that night. I just pretty well copied 17 those notes then from my notebook and started there from 18 my binder notes. 19 Q: And perhaps we can mark that as the 20 next exhibit. And I would ask that both of these pages 21 be marked as -- as a single exhibit, Commissioner? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1433, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1433: Document Number 2005418. 25 Excerpted handwritten notes
611 from September 05, 1995 from 2 OPP notebook of Sgt. Rob 3 Huntley. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: If we can turn to the second page 7 then from your binder notes, sir. The -- the top of the 8 page reads Project Maple, yes? 9 A: Yes, it does. 10 Q: And then the date is 05 September 11 '95? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: You've already told us at -- at 01:00 14 hours that you received a call from Officer Henderson to 15 have your team in Forest? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And if we just skip down to the entry 18 at 07 -- is that 07:18? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And perhaps you can just tell us what 21 -- what that reads? 22 A: Well, I attended -- that was Forest 23 Detachment. We were briefed. Had a briefing by Mark 24 Wright and in that briefing we were advised that at 19:30 25 hours the night before Indians entered the Park. A
621 cruiser window was smashed. ERT left the Park. ERT 2 member assigned -- ERT members assigned outer perimeter 3 checkpoints and units assigned. 4 So that's -- that's what I would have been 5 given to do and I assigned the units. And at eight 6 o'clock the units were deployed to checkpoints and I was 7 assigned -- my call sign was Lima 1 in the CP. 8 Q: Meaning that you were at the Command 9 Post? 10 A: That's -- that's correct. 11 Q: All right. During the course of this 12 briefing with Officer Mark Wright do you have any 13 recollection, sir, about there being any discussion about 14 the possibility of there being firearms in the Park in 15 the hands of the occupiers? 16 A: Not at that briefing, no. I should 17 say I don't recall that at that briefing. 18 Q: But you don't have any independent 19 recollection of that? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: And you certainly don't have any 22 notation of -- of that being part of a discussion? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
631 Q: Perhaps I could ask you then to turn 2 to the document that appears at the next tab, that is Tab 3 12? This is a transcript from the logger tapes from the 4 Mobile Command Unit. It's from tape 1, track 1 and it 5 would appear to be -- purport to be a discussion as 6 between yourself and Inspector Gordon at eleven o'clock 7 thereabout on September the 5th of 1995. 8 You've had a chance to review this 9 transcript, sir? 10 A: Yes. I have. 11 Q: And having reviewed that transcript, 12 can you recall that discussion and having that discussion 13 with Inspector Gordon? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: All right. And do you have any 16 reason to disagree with what is transcribed here as being 17 part of a conversation you were involved in? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: All right. We can mark that as the 20 next exhibit, please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1413. Pardon me, Your 22 Honour, P-1434. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1434: Transcript of Region 01, 25 Inspector Gordon - Rob
641 Huntley, September 05, 1995, 2 11:00 hrs, Mobile Command 3 Unit, Logger tape number 1, 4 Track 1, Disc 1 of 3. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: And I'm reminded that the time on 8 there is -- we are to add the seven (7) -- the seven (7) 9 minute lag. And I would think that the -- in looking at 10 this at least on the first page, there was some 11 discussion about sending a boat down. 12 And what was that about, sir? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Okay. The Inspector said the -- the 17 Graham I believe was stationed -- the H.H. Graham, which 18 was one of our OPP vessels was stationed in Kincardine 19 where Sergeant Briggar worked out of, and I believe they 20 wanted that boat down there -- down to Ipperwash. 21 Q: All right. And you would have been 22 on the phone because you would have been at the Command 23 Post. 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. If we just go onto the
651 next page of that, sir, you see where Inspector Gordon is 2 asked -- asks you, right at the top of the page: 3 "One way or the other. How are things 4 going? 5 And your answer? 6 A: Would you like me to read this? 7 Q: Yeah, would you please. 8 A: "Oh, good. They -- there was quite a 9 little to-do last night in the Park. 10 They -- the -- our First Nations 11 brethren smashed a window in a cruiser 12 and I guess it got somewhat violent. 13 Danced around and our guys pulled out. 14 And that's when we got the call to come 15 out, at seven o'clock this morning." 16 So Inspector Gordon replied to me: 17 "Our people weren't hurt were they or-" 18 And I -- I answered: 19 "No, nobody was hurt and now they're -- 20 now they've barricaded themselves. 21 They barricaded the entrance and put 22 trees down across roadways." 23 Inspector Gordon replied with: 24 "A bunch or arseholes." 25 And my reply to that was:
661 "Yeah, yeah. That's actually a very 2 nice way to describe them." 3 He said "Yeah." 4 I said "Yeah." 5 He said "Being generous, huh?" 6 I said "You are very -- too generous." 7 Q: All right. 8 A: And he goes on to say: 9 "Yeah. So that's all I wanted to say. 10 Is the boat -- that he doesn't have to 11 call me. I know what's going on. Any 12 support he needs, you know he can 13 contact me one way or the other if he 14 needs to." 15 Q: And that was the end -- the end of 16 that conversation, or that was the essence of that 17 conversation? 18 A: That's correct. That's correct. 19 Q: All right. If you look on the inside 20 cover of the document brief there, Officer, you'll find 21 that there is another transcription. This is a logger 22 tape again with the Mobile Command Unit. 23 It would appear to be a conversation 24 between yourself, Bob Briggar. And you've already 25 identified Bob Briggar as the Sergeant.
671 It'll say Region 02 at the top. 2 A: This is one of the loose leaf papers? 3 Q: It is six (6) pages. 4 A: Okay, I found it. Yeah. 5 Q: Do you have that in front of you, 6 sir? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you've had a chance to review 9 this before testifying here today? 10 A: Yes, I have. 11 Q: And do you recall, first of all, 12 having that conversation as is transcribed here? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: Having read this, do you have any 15 reason to believe that this is not the conversation you 16 were engaged in? 17 A: No. I don't have any reason to 18 believe it's not. 19 Q: And we'll mark that as the next 20 exhibit then, please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1435, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1435: Transcript of Region 02, Rob 24 Huntley - Bob Briggar - Bill 25 Dennis, September 05, 1995,
681 11:06 hrs, Mobile Command 2 Unit, Logger tape number 1, 3 Track 3, disc 1 of 3. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: So you're having this conversation 7 with Sergeant Briggar and you're asking him if -- if he's 8 the person that's in charge of the Marine Unit? Do you 9 see that, the fifth -- 10 A: Yes. Yeah. 11 Q: -- the fifth line on the first page? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And he tells you that he just 14 cancelled the Marine Unit. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: All right. And as I un -- and as I 17 look at this document and you can follow along with me, 18 but the essence of the next couple of pages is that the 19 boat will be coming down, that there would be a couple of 20 operators for that boat. 21 And that they should expect to be out on 22 the water, at least that night, and on duty on the water 23 over the next several days. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And can I turn you to
691 page 4 of page 6. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And Sergeant Briggar asks you at the 6 top of that page: 7 "You got your whole ERT team down 8 there, Rob?" 9 And you answer: 10 "Fifteen (15) of us" 11 And he says: 12 "Is that right, eh?" 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: And your response: 15 "One (1) guy is in Israel or going to 16 Israel so I didn't bring him." 17 And again, that just corresponds to what 18 you've already told us. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Okay. Just at the middle -- the 21 middle of the page after he asks you: 22 "How do you get all these soft touches? 23 You seem to indicate: 24 "You know when I -- when I was in the 25 vinegar strokes about 11:30 last
701 night?" 2 Bob says, "Yeah." 3 "And I just got to sleep, at one 4 o'clock I got the call. I didn't feel 5 so soft then. Well it was something" 6 What are vinegar strokes? 7 A: That's just a sexual term. 8 Q: I'm sorry, yeah. All right. If you 9 go on, it says: 10 "Well, I'm up to about three hundred 11 twenty (320) hours since June." 12 And I take it that this is the -- the 13 overtime hours that you would have accumulated on the 14 job? 15 A: Since June, yes. 16 Q: All right. He asks you right at the 17 bottom of the page: 18 "What are you going to do with all your 19 money?" 20 And you respond: 21 "Well, give it to the government." 22 If you turn over to the next page, he 23 says: 24 "Yeah, of course." 25 And then you reply:
711 "So they can give the Indians more 2 stuff, like, you know, all this stuff 3 we keep giving them doesn't come cheap. 4 Somebody's got to pay for it." 5 I want to give you a chance to -- to speak 6 to that if you would. 7 A: That statement I made, I don't recall 8 it. When I heard this transcription I was quite 9 surprised, even shocked. It's an unfair statement, it's 10 an inappropriate statement. It's an unprofessional 11 statement and all I can do is apologise for it. I 12 shouldn't have made that statement. 13 Q: All right, thank you, Officer. I'm 14 going to ask you to turn to the transcription at Tab 14 15 of the brief of documents in front of you. 16 It's already been marked as a trans -- as 17 an exhibit. It is 1157. 18 The conversation that's recorded as 19 between yourself, Rob Huntley and L -- Linda, and there's 20 a question mark. Do you recall who Linda is? 21 A: Not really. I know she's a 22 dispatcher but which dispatcher, I don't know. 23 Q: All right. So you're on the phone 24 with dispatch and you identify yourself, "Down here in 25 beautiful, sunny Ontario", and I'm reading now from the
721 fifth line or so. 2 A: That's correct, yeah. 3 Q: She says -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 5 I'm not with you, Mr. Worme. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 8 that? 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Tab 14. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 14. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: 14, Commissioner. I'm 12 sorry. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, thank 14 you. 15 MR. DONALD WORME: It's Exhibit P-1157. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see 17 it now. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: We're just down to about -- almost to 21 the middle of the page where Linda would appear to be 22 asking you: 23 "Are you having a good pow-wow?" 24 And you answer: 25 "Yes, I am. I'm in the command post
731 where it's air conditioned." 2 But you're really calling to talk to a 3 non-commissioned officer. 4 A: Yeah, I believe I was calling to talk 5 to a Sergeant there. 6 Q: All right. And I'm just going to 7 take you to the second page of that officer. And again, 8 I want to afford you the opportunity to speak to the 9 remarks that are on there. 10 And you'll see that again you're telling 11 them: 12 "I'm in the command post. I'm in the 13 dark here." 14 And Linda replies: 15 "Oh, I just thought it was kind of 16 straightforward, they'd get this stuff 17 back. We'd have to give it to them, 18 the buildings and everything." 19 And you reply: 20 "And we just pay more taxes so that we 21 can afford to build houses on it for 22 them." 23 And she says: 24 "Oh, come on. 25 RH: [chuckling].
741 LINDA: Now we're going to give to 2 them with houses? 3 RH: Yeah. Don't you think that's 4 right, because you and I stole the land 5 from them. 6 LINDA: Oh yeah, but we've put these 7 nice little barracks on it and paved 8 the roads and all that ammunition. 9 RH: Yeah, yeah, which we're looking 10 forward to seeing." 11 And then she puts you through. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What was that conversation in 14 relation to and what can you tell us about that? 15 A: I don't remember this conversation. 16 Again, when I heard this conversation I was -- I was 17 quite shocked it was me saying it. 18 Again it's an unfair statement. I was 19 talking again about overtime and paying taxes. It was 20 completely unfair, completely unprofessional and again 21 all I can do is apologize for those statements. 22 Q: All right. Officer, I'll ask you 23 then to turn to the transcript at Tab 15. This is a 24 conversation again of September the 5th, 1995 at 18:39 25 hours plus seven (7) minutes as I understand, between
751 yourself and Ed Robertson who is an inspector, correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And the essence of this discussion is 4 that -- that you were discussing logistical issues 5 including the -- the fact that he would be providing you 6 with five (5) night vision sets and the types of power 7 supply that they would require for that? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And you'll see at page 3 of 4 at the 10 bottom of the page he -- he responds to you: 11 "We're working on Nomex by the way. We 12 should have tomorrow." 13 And you reply: 14 "Terrific." 15 What's that about? 16 A: Nomex is a fire retardant coverall 17 that was issued to us. We referred to them as Nomex. 18 Q: All right. I'd ask that this be 19 marked as the next exhibit please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1436, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1436: Transcript of Region 04, Rob 23 Huntley - Ed Robertson, 24 September 05, 1995, 18:39 25 hrs, Mobile Command Unit,
761 Logger tape number 1, Track 2 1, disc 1 of 3. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: And, Officer, if I can take you back 6 to your notes I take it that there was -- you had no 7 further involvement in anything on the 5th of September? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: On the 5th of September? 12 Q: Right. 13 A: I -- I worked in the Command Post all 14 day, yes, but after -- after that I went back to where we 15 were staying. 16 Q: All right. And then you came back on 17 duty on the 6th of September? 18 A: That's correct. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 23 be a good time to have a morning recess? 24 MR. DONALD WORME: I think it would be, 25 sir.
771 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Since, 2 you're starting September 6th? 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 5 morning break. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 10:12 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 10:31 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: And, Officer Huntley, perhaps I can 17 ask you to turn to the document you will find at Tab 17 18 of the brief of documents? It's Inquiry Document 19 1004701. 20 There's a series of documents which 21 purport to be your -- first of all the -- the first page 22 is the handwritten note from the binder, I think, as 23 you've described it? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And the subsequent pages from front
781 number 54329 on to the end of that document are from your 2 notebook I take it? 3 A: Page 2 from my notebooks, yes. 4 Q: And that deals with September the 6th 5 and September the 7th essentially? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: All right. Perhaps just before we go 8 there I can ask you to turn to -- to the document... 9 Pardon me, let's -- let's take a look at 10 the first page of the notes at Tab 17 and I'll ask that 11 that be made the next exhibit before I refer you to that. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1437, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1437: Document Number 1004701. 15 Handwritten notebook entries 16 of Rob Huntley, September 06 17 -07, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: And those are your notes for the 6th 21 of September 1995? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And you would have prepared for your 24 shift commencing at 05:30, that is 5:30 in the a.m.? 25 A: That's correct.
791 Q: And you attended for a briefing at 2 6:30 in the morning? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Okay. Perhaps you can just tell us 5 about that briefing, what you recall from that, what your 6 notes indicate to you and refresh your memory with 7 respect to -- to whatever tasks you were assigned. 8 A: At 6:30 I attended a briefing. I 9 don't recall anything from that briefing. But I was 10 assigned -- my role that was as a rover logistics 11 officer. 12 Q: Okay. At 08:00 hours it would appear 13 that you were involved in something or other. 14 A: That -- that's correct. There was an 15 incident where the sandy parking lot off at the end of 16 Army Camp Road, the municipal parking area, was blocked 17 by picnic tables. 18 I was asked to assist with their removal. 19 So with Sergeant Graham and Van Damme -- I don't really 20 recall too much about the planning stage. However the 21 goal was to go down there and remove the tables and that 22 was done using a -- I believe it was an MNR trailer and I 23 believe it was the night shift went down and moved those 24 tables. 25 When we got down there, there was -- my
801 notes indicate two (2) to three (3) Natives ran -- there 2 was a blue tarp and a fire going in the parking lot and 3 as the teams arrived, they ran back into the Park -- into 4 the Ipperwash Provincial Park and the tables were removed 5 without incident. 6 Q: All right. Did you recognize the 7 individuals that you say ran into the Park? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: Can you tell us whether you were 10 first on the scene or do you know who was? Do you know 11 the order of -- of arrival at the scene of the picnic 12 tables? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: When you say your notes indicate 15 that, what notes are you referring to? 16 A: The notes -- the looseleaf binder 17 note at eight o'clock: 18 "10-7 TOC, plan and prepare with Graham 19 and Van Damme to remove picnic tables". 20 Q: All right. 21 A: "From the roadway." 22 Q: And that at 08:46 hours? What does 23 that read? Something a road allowance? 24 A: Entered the road allowance. 25 Q: All right.
811 A: Natives ran into the Park. Picnic 2 tables cleared. 3 Q: All right. And that's -- and that's 4 what you've just referred us to? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: At 9:12 hours it appears that you had 7 a conversation. Can you tell us about that, please? 8 A: Yeah. There's a woman lives right 9 the last house, it's beside that sandy parking lot, by 10 the name of Fran Hannahson. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: I'm not sure on the pronunciation 13 there. At 2, Loyalist Drive. She was concerned about 14 what was going on and she mentioned she was concerned for 15 her safety and she mentioned that she saw the officers 16 the night before getting -- having rocks thrown at them, 17 from the incident that happened that previous night. 18 Q: All right. And if I can ask you to 19 take a look at your own notes at page 3 on your -- on the 20 notebook. 21 You see at the bottom of page 3, there's 22 an entry under the time 07:00 hours? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: It starts at: 25 "10-8 to TOC. Natives barricade road
821 allowance between Park and private 2 residence." 3 A: Sorry, I'm just... 4 Q: Page 3, are you with me now? 5 A: Of my notebook? 6 Q: Yes. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: What time have you got there? 11 Q: I'm just looking at the -- the third 12 page. It says page 3 at the bottom. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: You'll find at the -- a copy of the 15 third page in the brief of documents, under Tab 17 that 16 we've just marked as P-1437. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Okay. On the bottom of that page it 21 says, I got Fran Hannahson's -- is that the page you're 22 looking at? 23 Q: That's right. 24 A: And her address? 25 Q: That's it.
831 A: Okay, yes. 2 Q: And it just continues on the next 3 page that she witnessed officers being pelted with rocks 4 and: 5 "No further incidents of real concern." 6 I think your notes read. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And again that just corresponds with 9 what it is that you've just told us? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: If you can just continue on with that 12 entry from where I've left off, Officer: 13 "Attend debriefing at CP." 14 That's at the Command Post? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Right? And it reads: 17 "Issued ASP batons?" 18 A: Yeah. This is later in the evening. 19 We were -- the teams that were -- as we were leaving we - 20 - Sergeant or I think it was -- he was a constable then, 21 Danny Grant, we were issued ASP batons and -- and we 22 received some training on them. 23 Q: And what did that training consist of 24 if you can recall for us today, sir? 25 A: Basically how to open them, open and
841 close them. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: They -- 4 Q: They open by centrifugal force -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- do they not? And they snap open 7 and -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: And they're compact and they -- they 11 were made to be worn on our belt. 12 Q: In -- in a holster-type arrangement 13 on your utility belt? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And I just want to refer 16 you very briefly if I may, sir, to the document at Tab 17 16. It's again a transcript from the Mobile Command Unit 18 logger tape. It's been marked as Exhibit P-1309, a 19 conversation between yourself, Sergeant Rob Huntley and 20 Sergeant Stan Korosec. 21 Again I'm going to ask you if you recall 22 first of all having this conversation? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: And secondly whether you have any 25 reason to dispute that this is an accurate transcription
851 of the conversation? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: It essentially talks about the 4 removal of those picnic tables, correct? 5 A: Yes, I believe so. 6 Q: All right. And there was some 7 discussion or information passed along that that removal 8 of the picnic tables would be videotaped? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: According to this, yes. 13 Q: Yeah. Do you know whether in fact 14 that operation was videotaped? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: Thank you. And your understanding as 17 to the reason why those picnic tables were removed? 18 A: They were blocking access to the -- 19 to the sandy parking lot. 20 Q: All right. And during the course of 21 the removal of those picnic tables do you recall whether 22 any of the -- any of your fellow officers were holding 23 either -- either their sidearms or long guns? 24 A: I had assigned a couple of officers 25 to have their .223 rifles with them.
861 Q: When you say ".223 rifles" you're 2 talking about a calibre? 3 A: Yeah, .223 calibre mini -- mini- 4 Ruger -- 5 Q: All right. 6 A: -- rifle. 7 Q: And I take it that you would have 8 seen them involved as per your instructions? 9 A: I don't even really recall that. 10 Q: All right. I'm going to ask you to 11 turn to the document at Tab 19. It's Inquiry Document 12 2003600. It purports to be a statement of yourself, sir, 13 some three (3) -- two (2) pages in length and then 14 there's a third page which would appear to be taken from 15 your notes. Am I right in that? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: This -- this isn't from my notes but 20 it's a statement I made at sometime. 21 Q: Okay. And if I can just ask you to 22 look at the last page of that document. See it "says 23 Sergeant R. C. Huntley Number 6 District ERT leader, Owen 24 Sound OPP Detachment" at the top? 25 A: The last page?
871 Q: The -- the very last page of that 2 document, yes. 3 A: Oh, okay. Right. 4 Q: And you see it -- it looks like 5 you've signed it at the bottom? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Can you tell us if in 8 fact this portion of this document is taken from your 9 notes? 10 A: It would be based on my notes -- 11 Q: All right. Thank you. 12 A: -- and my recollection. 13 Q: Let me just take you back to the 14 first page of that document then please and you can 15 confirm for us that in fact this is essentially what 16 you've testified to us to as your involvement on the 17 morning of the 6th of September, 1995? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: You see the second paragraph? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It corresponds to what you've 24 testified to -- 25 A: Yes.
881 Q: -- your attendance for the purposes-- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- of removing the barricades or the 4 picnic tables. 5 And look at the third paragraph. It says: 6 "I spoke to..." 7 And the name is blacked out, but you've 8 identified that individual? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. She expressed concern for 11 her safety. And she also advised she witnessed the 12 cruisers being pelted by rocks the night before. 13 Then goes on, and I quote: 14 "I then had Checkpoint 'A' moved to the 15 corner of Army Camp Road and East 16 Parkway Drive." 17 Do you know where that checkpoint was 18 before you had moved it? 19 A: No, I do not. 20 Q: Okay. Can I ask you take a look at - 21 - there's a document at Tab 34, that is the last page, 22 the last document in that brief of documents in front of 23 you, sir? 24 It's -- there's Exhibit Number P-1223. It 25 says "Checkpoint Locations," do you see that?
891 A: Yes, I have it in front of me? 2 Q: And the second page of that reads: 3 "Checkpoint Duties." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Did you have any hand, 6 first of all, in preparing this document? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: All right. And you see where the 9 checkpoints are located, Checkpoint 'A' East Parkway at 10 MNR parking lot? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Yes, I -- I see what it says here. 15 Q: All right. And we also have come to 16 understand that those checkpoints have moved and you've 17 just indicated that, in fact, you had a hand in moving 18 the checkpoints. So this wouldn't... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And again, just with respect to that 23 document at Tab 34, I take it you don't know when that 24 was created? 25 A: No.
901 Q: You didn't have a role in creating 2 it? 3 A: I don't recall ever seeing this. 4 Q: All right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: You've indicated earlier that part of 9 your role was a roving patrol? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you just describe for that -- 12 for us, briefly, what that entailed? 13 A: Well part of my duties would just be 14 patrolling the area and supervising the checkpoints and 15 anything else the -- that was required of me to do. 16 Q: And in the course of supervising 17 those patrols and patrolling the area, you would have 18 witnessed a number of things and you made some notations 19 about what you witnessed. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And what can you tell us about that 22 today please? 23 A: I remember at that -- that checkpoint 24 was moved right to the corner. I remember people inside 25 -- occupiers inside the Park, they had young children
911 with very large mirrors and they were shining the light 2 from those mirrors into the -- into the officers' faces. 3 I also recall seeing males, Native males 4 on the other side of the fence carrying sticks or clubs 5 in their hands. I -- I -- that's what I remember from 6 that tape. 7 Q: All right. And again, the document 8 at Tab 19, I'm going to ask that this be marked as an 9 exhibit please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1438, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1438: Document Number 2003600. OPP 13 statement of Rob Huntley, 14 typed and signed version of 15 statement of Rob Huntley (re. 16 September 06, 1995). 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: You see the last paragraph on page 1, 20 Officer Huntley? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Or just right after where you had 23 indicated that you would move Checkpoint 'A' from the 24 corner of Army Camp -- pardon me, to the corner of Army 25 Camp Road and East Parkway Drive?
921 A: At -- at the very last paragraph? 2 Q: In the -- in the last paragraph you 3 simply -- 4 A: Checkpoint 'A' pull back. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: Okay, yes. 7 Q: Again, that simply corresponds to the 8 testimony you've just provided. That is, you observe 9 numerous young males carrying clubs as they walked along 10 the fence. 11 "They also had young children 12 reflecting sunlight into our officers' 13 eyes using large mirrors." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And then it reads: 16 "Checkpoint 'A' was pulled back when a 17 night shift replaced day shift to 18 protect the officers from objects being 19 thrown at them." 20 What was that about? 21 A: There was quite a bit of activity 22 when we were leaving that night. I recall one officer 23 was somewhat concerned about all the activity. I can't 24 tell you exactly what that activity was, but it was 25 unusual.
931 We felt, or I felt that that Checkpoint 2 was too close to the Park, considering the officers the 3 night before were pelted with rocks. 4 I felt, for their safety, they should be 5 moved from that location. 6 Q: All right. I'm going to ask you to 7 turn back to the notes at Tab 17, Exhibit P-1437. And if 8 you want to follow along in your own notebook, officer, 9 there's page 4. 10 And I think that's where I left off with 11 you, that you had this discussion with the resident at 12 the corner of Army Camp Road and East Parkway, who 13 expressed her concern to you? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Right. I just want to take you, 16 then, to the next entry there, right following the issued 17 ASP batons. And then it goes on: 18 "Advised by Korosec." 19 And perhaps you can just read that for us 20 and tell us what that's about. 21 A: Okay. 22 "Advised by Korosec [that would be 23 Sergeant Stan Korosec] that Natives 24 attacked a car being driven by a 25 civilian. Things were escalating.
941 Order issued to dress in hard tack. 3 2 and 6 District dressed. We reviewed 3 formations in the back parking lot. 4 Wade Lacroix, Staff Sergeant in charge 5 of CMU. We travelled to the TOC and 6 assembled. We were briefed. 7 Natives were occupying the road 8 allowance. To move in formation 9 towards Park." 10 Q: Okay. I'm going to stop you right 11 there officer, and I want to ask you about when these 12 notes were made. I note that there's no times that 13 correspond to any of these entries. 14 Can you tell us when you made these notes? 15 A: These notes were made on the 7th of 16 September, the day -- the next day. I made them at -- 17 sometime before lunch, I believe. 18 I never made notes on the 6th, during this 19 whole -- this incident. We were very busy, it was just 20 pretty well impossible to make notes in that kind of 21 situation, and I made them the next day. 22 Q: Let me take you back to the entry 23 then that you were advised by Korosec that the Natives 24 attacked a car being driven by a civilian and that things 25 were escalating.
951 Do you have any independent recollection, 2 beyond what you've had recorded here, of what Officer 3 Korosec would have advised? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did you have any role, sir, in either 6 confirming or somehow validating this information that 7 was being passed along to you -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- and other members, I take it, of 10 your team? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: You then mention that you were 13 ordered to dress in hard tack. Would you describe, very 14 briefly, for us, what that entails? 15 A: Hard tack is equipment that we used 16 to protect us against objects. It's -- we have knee 17 protectors, we have thigh protectors. So it's just a 18 plastic -- a hard plastic shell. 19 Elbow protectors, arm protectors, we 20 have -- 21 Q: When you say "arm" you just motioned 22 to your forearm. 23 A: I'm sorry. Yeah, the arm protector 24 would go from the wrist up over the elbow. 25 Q: Thank you.
961 A: We -- that includes a helmet with a 2 shield, a shield on the helmet, and also a plexiglass 3 shield. That's what hard tack was. 4 Q: Okay. And that's together with the 5 ASP baton that you've already indicated you had been just 6 issued and trained on? 7 A: Yeah. The -- the ASP baton -- we 8 would normally carry a wooden baton but the ASP baton was 9 to replace that. 10 Q: I see. And I understand that prior 11 in the day you would have been -- you would have been 12 dressed in your -- in your normal tactical uniform? 13 A: I believe it was our tactical greys. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: The information that you received 19 during the course of this briefing as you're -- as you're 20 reviewing your formations in the back parking lot, I take 21 it this is the back parking lot of the Command Post at 22 the Forest Detachment? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And Wade Lacroix would be -- would be 25 leading that review?
971 A: I -- I don't know if he was there. 2 George Hebblethwaite led that review. 3 Q: All right. Had you been advised at 4 that point or at any subsequent point that there would be 5 TRU members also in the vicinity that would be 6 accompanying CMU? 7 A: I knew that. I don't know when I -- 8 when I received that information -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- that they would be supporting us. 11 Q: And did you have an understanding as 12 to why CMU would be deployed, why you were being asked to 13 -- to get into your hard tac uniform and to attend to the 14 TOC? 15 A: I was given our mission. I 16 understood it to be a -- a public safety issue, with the 17 car being attacked, a civilian down in that area. There 18 was some concern for the cottagers down there. 19 So other than that, that was basically my 20 understanding of why we were put in the hard tac; public 21 safety and concern for the cottagers. 22 Q: Okay. Can I ask you to turn to the 23 document at Tab 20, please? It's, again, a statement of 24 yourself. It would appear to be given on the 7th of 25 September, 1995.
981 You were interviewed by a Detective 2 Constable Pierzchalski; I hope I'm saying that properly? 3 A: I can't help you out there. 4 Q: Thank you. Do you recall giving this 5 particular interview, first of all? It would appear that 6 that took place, as I said, on that date -- 7 A: Yes, I -- 8 Q: -- at 19:00 hours? 9 A: I recall that interview, yes. 10 Q: You see just at the bottom of the 11 first page it would appear your response, Huntley. You 12 describe yourself as a member of Number 6 District ERT, 13 hold the rank of sergeant, you're the team leader. 14 Then it reads: 15 "Last night I was in charge of Number 6 16 District ERT team. We were tasked with 17 forming a Crowd Management Unit with 18 Number 3 District ERT to control a 19 large group of Natives who had spilled 20 out from the Ipperwash Provincial Park 21 boundary, across a fence line and had 22 attacked a passing civilian vehicle." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: I guess I'm just inquiring of you as 25 to -- it appears that is more information that you had
991 included in your notes on the 4th -- pardon me, on page 4 2 rather? 3 A: Well, I -- I guess I refer to a large 4 group of Natives. I don't -- I don't know how many. All 5 I know is there was a -- a group that attacked a car, 6 that was my information. 7 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, you had 8 told us earlier, sir, that you had then moved and I was - 9 - I was taking you through your notes that you had 10 attended to the Tactical Operations Centre that -- we 11 understand that that was located at the MNR parking lot, 12 just down the road from the intersection of East Parkway 13 Drive and Army Camp Road? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: All right. And as you arrived there 16 I understand that you would have been met by Staff -- 17 pardon me by Wade Lacroix, who was in charge of the Crowd 18 Management Unit, yes? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I'm going to ask you to refer to that 23 document I have just taken you to at -- 24 A: The -- 25 Q: Tab Number 20.
1001 A: The statement? 2 Q: Yeah, there's -- 3 A: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 4 Q: Your statement, it's Inquiry Document 5 2003599. And perhaps we can mark that as an exhibit 6 right now? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1439. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1439: Document Number 2003599. OPP 11 interview statement of Rob 12 Huntley and signed 13 handwritten version, 14 September 07, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: And if I ask you to turn over to the 18 second page of that; do you see that? 19 A: Starting with: 20 "We were in the middle of a 21 debriefing...?" 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Just -- would you go ahead and just 25 read that and I'll stop you as -- at a -- at a point just
1011 somewhere down the -- down the narrative. 2 A: Okay. 3 "We were in the middle of a debriefing 4 when we were given the order to dress 5 in hard tac. We were advised that 6 Staff Sergeant Lacroix would be in 7 charge of the Crowd Management Unit. 8 It was Sergeant Korosec that advised us 9 of this. 10 My team and I dressed and stood by at 11 Forest Detachment. Both teams moved 12 down to the Tactical Operations Centre 13 located at -- on Parkway Drive. We had 14 been briefed by Staff Sergeant Lacroix 15 at Forest Detachment, as well as at 16 Tactical Operations site. 17 We were given the order to move out. 18 It was after dark --" 19 Q: And maybe I'll just stop you right at 20 that point, just a couple of brief questions, if I may. 21 Does that assist you, first of all, in 22 recalling that you would have been briefed by Staff 23 Sergeant Lacroix at the Forest Detachment, as well as the 24 tactical operation site? 25 A: Yes.
1021 Q: And do you recall anything of that 2 briefing in terms of what it is that you were suppose to 3 do? 4 A: I don't recall a lot of that 5 briefing, other than our mission. And our mission was to 6 clear the -- the sandy parking lot of occupiers if they 7 had come out. 8 And I don't remember any other details 9 other than I know that TRU -- the TRU team was there to 10 support us by putting observation teams out, and they're 11 also to cover us in case there was any kind of threats 12 from firearms. 13 Q: And were you alerted specifically, 14 sir, to any kinds of potential threats from firearms? Do 15 you recall that being any part of the discussion or the 16 briefing? 17 A: Well, it was just known at the time, 18 like with a number of incidents and reports; incidents 19 being the helicopter shooting. Throughout the summer it 20 was -- it was a given that there were firearms. And I 21 don't know where that information came. It wasn't a 22 surprise to me. 23 And Inspector Carson brought it up at the 24 -- the -- when we did the planning too. So we always 25 knew there was a threat. And there was also the other
1031 incident prior to the picnic tables that remo -- removing 2 the picnic tables. 3 There was a report of automatic gunfire 4 the night before. So it wasn't a surprise. We had to 5 keep that in mind, that the worse case scenario was there 6 could be firearms. 7 Q: Firearms in the Park? 8 A: In -- in the Park. Or in the hands 9 of the occupiers. 10 Q: All right. Do you recall Staff 11 Sergeant Lacroix giving you any specific advice about the 12 likelihood of this threat materializing? 13 Was there any such discussion that -- that 14 you can recall for us? 15 A: No. Other than I -- I do recall him 16 saying if -- if we come under any kind of firearm threat, 17 then the TRU team would be there to handle that and we 18 were to take cover. 19 So if we came under fire, we were to take 20 cover and the TRU teams was to take care of that threat. 21 Q: All right. Did you, sir, as a -- as 22 a team leader, have any specific concern about being 23 ordered to march, in the dark, into potential gunfire? 24 A: As -- as part of the Crowd Management 25 Unit and I was a squad leader in that Crowd Management
1041 Unit and there was -- I didn't -- I wasn't involved in 2 the planning. I didn't have all the information that -- 3 that Staff Sergeant Lacroix would have had. 4 I had confidence in Inspector Carson, who 5 was in -- in charge, and Staff Sergeant Lacroix, and 6 Staff Sergeant Skinner who was in charge of the -- the 7 TRU team. 8 I had confidence in their decision making 9 that -- to send us down the road, as I didn't have all 10 the information. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. Did you have 12 any instructions as to whether or not you were to enter 13 the Park? 14 A: There was some confusion at -- at 15 first. Some of my team members came to me, worried that 16 we were going into the Park. And I -- I don't know if 17 it's -- it's in this statement. 18 I -- I approached Sergeant Korosec about 19 that because I wasn't sure myself that our mission -- I 20 just wanted to make sure that our mission was not to go 21 into the Park. And Sergeant Korosec assured me that -- 22 that it wasn't. 23 Q: And did you -- what did you do with 24 that information, if anything? 25 A: I would have passed that along to my
1051 squad. 2 Q: Officer, there's a document at Tab 18 3 which is Inquiry Document 1005909. I understand that 4 that's been marked as Exhibit P-1460 (sic). 5 Do you see that, it's a diagram? 6 A: I see it. 7 Q: I take if you didn't prepare this 8 diagram. 9 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall this 10 diagram at all. 11 Q: Have you ever seen this diagram 12 before I showed it to you the other day? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And do you see where 15 you're located? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: And does that seem to correspond with 18 your recollection of where you were situated in -- within 19 the CMU? 20 A: That -- yes, that's a -- that's where 21 I would be. 22 Q: All right. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Pardon me, Mr. Worme. 24 That document is P-1416. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: I stand corrected.
1061 Thank you, Mr. Registrar. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: That's document, 489 front? 6 Just -- it's on there -- because I haven't got that other 7 number. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And as I understand it, you were in 17 charge of the right cover? You would be in command of 18 that particular unit. 19 A: I was. 20 Q: All right. Maybe you can just 21 describe this formation for us briefly, sir. And then if 22 you would go on to describe what your role would be as in 23 charge of right cover. 24 A: Well, there's a number of formations 25 in -- in crowd management. In a cordon formation, we
1071 would spread out similar to how this document is, but my 2 -- my -- I was in charge of the right cover squad which 3 consisted of six (6) members in front of me and a seventh 4 member beside me, to my right. 5 And that was part of -- that was one (1) 6 squad of four (4) in a crowd management unit. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: There would be contact, left cover, 9 right cover, and the arrest squad in the back. 10 Q: And your job, or your role? 11 A: My role was to the -- the commander 12 of the unit would give orders and my role was to be in 13 charge of those six (6) constables in front of me and 14 make sure we were in the right place when we were told to 15 -- depending on the order was given. 16 Q: Okay. Let me take you back to the 17 document at Tab number 21, it's P-1439. And I had 18 stopped you as you were reading it, right after the 19 phrase, "it was after dark." 20 If you would just continue from there, 21 sir, and tell us what happened next. 22 A: I'm sorry, what Tab was that again? 23 Q: Tab 20. 24 A: Tab 20. Okay. 25
1081 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Where did we leave off? 4 Q: Right in the middle of the page: 5 "We were given the order to move out--" 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: "-- it was after dark." 8 A: I got it. 9 "We moved out to a point in the road 10 about two hundred (200) metres from the 11 junction of Parkway Drive and Army Camp 12 Road, as we had been given a report 13 from a TRU Sierra team." 14 That says 'sir,' but it's 'Sierra team.' 15 Q: Right. 16 A: "That there was a Native ahead on the 17 junction with a gun. We took cover at 18 that point. The TRU team then 19 confirmed it was only a club, not a 20 gun." 21 Q: And let me just stop you there, 22 briefly. Do you recall this event happening as you're -- 23 as you're marching down the road? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: All right. And when you took cover,
1091 what do you recall doing in terms of taking cover? 2 A: The team just went both sides of the 3 road, just got off the middle of the road and would have 4 just got down. 5 Q: All right. And do you know how long 6 you would have got down, that is, taking cover -- 7 A: No, I -- 8 Q: -- before -- before some further 9 information was provided? 10 A: I don't recall how long that was. 11 Q: All right. So go ahead and just 12 continue, if you would then. 13 A: "We reformed, and continued our 14 forward progress. As we approached the 15 junction, a person shone a flashlight 16 at us. As we got closer and rounded 17 the curve, our team was lit up. 18 Spotlights and vehicle headlights from 19 behind the fence in the camp. 20 All the Natives retreated into the Park 21 as we approached. We marched up to 22 approximately seven (7) metres from the 23 fence line. 24 I was team leader on the right support 25 unit, positioned behind the six (6)
1101 member right support unit." 2 And that's really cover unit or cover, 3 right cover. 4 "Directly to my right was Provincial 5 Constable Peter Osborne. In front was 6 the following: 7 Byron Schwass, Jeff Thorne, David 8 Smith, Jim Christie, Chris Cosset and 9 John Spencer. 10 The arrest team was to my rear. My 11 partner was Peter Osborne. He was a 12 support officer. 13 As we had stopped, we began taking 14 objects thrown at us from behind the 15 fence line. The first thing I remember 16 was a burning log being thrown at us. 17 Byron Schwass was hit in the helmet. I 18 got hit in the right upper thigh area. 19 We were blinded by the spotlights on us 20 and we could not see the objects being 21 thrown as a result. 22 We retreated further as they were 23 behind the fence. One (1) Native 24 started yelling at us. He crossed the 25 fence and came towards us.
1111 The left support punched out on order 2 and the Native ran back over the fence 3 to the Park. We continued to retreat. 4 Numerous Natives then crossed back over 5 into the parking lot. 6 There was a lot of yelling and 7 shouting. One (1) Native who appeared 8 to be leader stood out in front and did 9 most of the yelling and shouting and 10 drew a line in the sand on the road 11 using a two by four (2x4) stick. 12 There were numerous Natives in behind 13 him carrying sticks and logs. The 14 Crowd Management Unit was given the 15 order to punch-out and the entire team 16 engaged at a run forward. 17 It appeared the Natives were going to 18 turn and run but they decided to stay 19 and fight when the leader raised the 20 two by four (2x4) over his right 21 shoulder like a baseball bat. 22 The contact squad arrested this 23 shouting male, who fought back 24 vigorously. I ran past this point and 25 there were other Natives coming towards
1121 the arrested Native. 2 I made contact with one (1) of the 3 Natives. He was carrying a long stick 4 which was round, about six (6) feet in 5 length. I engaged this Native who 6 struck me directly on the shield with 7 the large stick. I struck him and the 8 Native disengaged and returned to the 9 compound with a limp. 10 There was a constant barrage of debris. 11 The Natives ran back to their side of 12 the fence. We received an order to 13 retreat. The team re-formed and 14 retreated back down the road from the 15 direction we had come. We moved down 16 quite a way down the road. The 17 spotlights were still on us and rocks 18 were still being thrown in our 19 direction. 20 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me stop you 21 there, if I may, Officer, and let's just go back to the 22 earlier part of the narrative that you had read out. 23 So you've already told us that you can 24 recall taking cover after the advice from TRU that there 25 was someone on the road with something that appeared to
1131 be a gun? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And it was subsequently confirmed it 4 was a stick and not a gun? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And so you continued to go down and 7 as you approached the Park the -- the CMU was lit up, 8 essentially? 9 A: As soon as we rounded the curve in 10 the road towards the Park we were -- spotlights were 11 shone on us, headlights. 12 Q: Could you see, as a result of the 13 spotlights or the headlights on you, anything behind 14 those? 15 A: I could see a lot of -- a lot of 16 people back in behind there, I -- mainly shadows, but it 17 was obvious they were people. 18 Q: And could you see whether or not 19 these people were -- were holding anything or what -- 20 what they were doing? 21 A: I don't -- I don't recall if -- 22 Q: Were you -- 23 A: -- in behind the -- the fence if I 24 could see that, but. 25 Q: I'm sorry. Thank you. Were you able
1141 to make any determinations as to the ages or the numbers 2 of individuals? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And did hear you correctly in saying 5 that they were behind the fence? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And we've had this fence 8 as describe as something as simply a snow-type fence? 9 A: I don't -- I don't recall it. 10 Q: You don't recall -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- the fence at all? Okay. 13 The narrative that you -- that you read 14 would indicate that you marched up to approximately seven 15 (7) metres from the fence. Do you recall whether or not 16 there was actual contact with the individuals -- on this 17 initial march, with the individuals inside the Park? 18 A: There was no contact. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall whether 20 there was anything that was being said back and forth? 21 A: There was a lot of yelling and 22 shouting from the people inside the Park, at us. 23 Q: Do you recall -- do you recall what 24 was being said at all? 25 A: Not specifically, no.
1151 Q: All right. You then indicated that 2 there was someone who approached, that you assumed was 3 their leader, and perhaps you can tell us why you came to 4 that assumption; what you recall this individual saying, 5 if anything? 6 A: He -- he was the one who stood out in 7 the crowd and came forward. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: That was talking directly to us as 10 opposed to just yelling and swearing at us. Can I refer 11 to my original notes to see if I've got anything down 12 there exactly what he said? 13 Q: Perhaps you should. I'm going to 14 suggest to you that you might look at your page 5 of your 15 notes. Those are at Tab 17 Exhibit P-1437. 16 A: Thank you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: So in my actual notes I -- I don't 21 have exactly what he said. 22 Q: You do have an indication at the 23 middle of page 5, that: 24 "The Natives yelling and screaming to 25 get off land and threatened death."
1161 Do you see that? 2 A: Yeah, that was -- that was a sort of 3 thing that we were getting from the people there. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: That was on page 5? 6 Q: Yes. In the middle of page 5 and 7 then it goes on to read: 8 "CMU backed up and I was approached..." 9 Does that say I was approached? 10 A: No. 11 "And one male approached yelling --" 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: "-- his grandfather died for us. He 14 continued to yell and come closer to 15 CMU." 16 Now that was a difference incident -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: -- as opposed to this -- 19 Q: Okay. Perhaps you can just tell us 20 about this incident that you're reading -- reading to us 21 now. 22 A: Okay. At some point when we were in 23 that Park, I believe we walked up to the -- to the fence 24 and then we backed off a bit. 25 And when we -- everybody was in the -- in
1171 the Park -- or went back into the Park, and when we 2 backed up a bit, that's when a male was over to the left. 3 He wasn't in front of me and he was -- I don't know if 4 anybody else -- else was in the Park at that time -- or 5 in the parking lot, but he was yelling those things I -- 6 I just read. 7 The last cover squad was given the order 8 to punch out, so they ran forward and the -- the male ran 9 back into the Park. 10 Q: All right. Just continue reading 11 your notes there, if you would, please. 12 A: Do you want me to read them out loud 13 or do you want just to go to that point where the male -- 14 Q: Well perhaps you can simply -- yeah, 15 perhaps you can simply confirm for me that the notes on 16 the balance of that page, as well as the top of page 6, 17 is essentially what you already testified to. 18 And that is to say that there were objects 19 being thrown -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- and that there were individuals 22 within your unit that were struck by these thrown -- 23 thrown objects. 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: That you got hit on the thigh
1181 protector and you continued to back up off the road 2 allowance? 3 A: Yeah. I'm pretty sure we were right 4 off the road. I'm pretty sure I was on -- on the 5 pavement at that time. 6 Q: Okay. And can you see in the middle 7 of page 6, it says: 8 "CMU completely off road allowance and 9 on roadway with twenty (20) plus [is 10 that males] with weapons approached 11 threatening war yelps." 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I take it these war yelps are 14 again what you had described to us earlier. 15 A: Yeah, that -- that was the language 16 that I used back then; just loud, loud screams and yells. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So we -- we had backed up. We -- we 19 were getting hit with a lot of objects coming from the 20 Park. I was on the right hand side and we moved back. 21 And then a lot of the occupiers came out of the -- the 22 Park when we backed up. 23 And there was a lot of -- there was a lot 24 of noise, the lights were still in our eyes and that's 25 when one (1) person stepped forward with this two by four
1191 (2 x 4). 2 And I'm not -- I'm not -- there was so 3 much said to me and I'm -- I'm really reluctant to say 4 that he said those things. So -- and I don't have it in 5 my notes but he drew the line in the sand and that's when 6 we were given the order for the full team to punch out. 7 Q: And just describe what that means 8 when the full team was ordered to punch out. 9 A: The whole team moves forward at 10 speed, at a -- at a run. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: Intended to move the people back. 13 Q: All right. And as you did this, what 14 happened? 15 A: The male that drew the -- the line in 16 the sand looked like he was turning -- he was going to 17 run back into the Park, then he turned and took a 18 defensive stance. 19 And he -- I believe it was the contact 20 squad would have been the first squad to meet him. They 21 would have been ahead of us but that area was so 22 constricted, we were pretty tight together. 23 So the contact squad ran forward and the 24 next thing I know I could see him swing. That's because 25 I'm running forward too, I could see him swing. The next
1201 thing I -- I assumed it was him that was on the ground 2 behind them. 3 And what I recall of him was just on his 4 back just kicking as wildly as he could at -- at the 5 officers who were trying to get control of him. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Now that -- I continued to -- to run 8 by him because I saw some -- another male coming out of 9 the Park towards those officers. 10 All the while we were still getting hit by 11 whatever they were throwing; I said rocks. I don't know 12 what they were throwing, I couldn't -- I could only 13 identify one (1) thing, and that was the burning log, the 14 rest of it was just hard objects. 15 And that's when I engaged the second male 16 and -- and then at -- he struck my shield and let go of 17 the club after he struck it, because I went down on my 18 knee and I angled my -- my shield, so at the same time I 19 struck him on the left leg and then -- 20 Q: When you -- 21 A: -- went back in the Park. 22 Q: When you say you "struck him on the 23 left leg," I take it you would have had your -- your ASP 24 baton out? 25 A: That's correct. That's correct.
1211 Q: And at what point in time would you 2 have taken your ASP baton out? Would this be on the 3 march down to the Park? 4 A: It would have been, yes. 5 Q: All right. We've heard a little bit 6 about shield chatter, and that is the -- the banging of 7 the ASP against the -- the plexiglass shields you were 8 carrying? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And was that part of the punch out, 11 or part of the manoeuvres at all? 12 A: I believe that happened before the 13 punch out. I -- I believe it happened prior to going 14 into the parking lot, but I'm -- I'm not sure. 15 Q: All right. And a lot of things were 16 happening, as you've indicated. And your notes would -- 17 would, again, just confirm what you've just testified to, 18 and that is that you passed the contact squad who were 19 arresting the individual you presumed to be the leader. 20 A: And I assumed it was the contact 21 squad, too, because -- 22 Q: And I take into your statement 23 earlier, where you'd indicated that -- that the person 24 you had seen, that you assumed was being arrested, was 25 struggling furiously, I think was the -- or violently, I
1221 think was the -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- earlier notation you'd made. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: In terms of their attempts to 6 restrain, could you see what the contact squad was doing? 7 Did you see anybody striking or kicking this individual? 8 A: No. No, I didn't. 9 Q: And I take it you wouldn't have been 10 looking directly at that, as you were engaged in -- in 11 other tasks at the moment, and indeed preoccupied, I 12 think you've told -- 13 A: It was -- 14 Q: -- us? 15 A: I glanced over. I could see there 16 was something going on there. There was a guy on the 17 ground, kicking, and I just kept moving forward. 18 Q: All right. And then you encounter 19 this male with the club that -- as you've described, you 20 had an exchange with him. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: If I could ask you to turn over to 23 page 8 of your notes, officer. 24 At the top of that page you -- you 25 indicate that one of the first objects that was thrown is
1231 the burning piece of wood, and you've already testified 2 that's the only thing that you recall actually being 3 thrown, other than hard objects beyond that -- 4 A: That's correct. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And then I wonder if you could just 9 read from there, it begins with, "I also witnessed..." 10 and tell us about that. When did you see that event that 11 you've described? 12 A: Okay. That's -- that's when we first 13 moved up. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: There's a lot of yelling; that's when 16 the lights were being shone in our faces. There was one 17 (1) male in the Park who had a, it would be like a road 18 sign, a long metal road sign or the -- the pole would be 19 the metal road sign. 20 And then on the end of it there was a -- a 21 metal sign; some kind of metal sign. And he had that and 22 when we approached, I thought he was going to throw it at 23 us, but he held on to it. 24 And I don't have my notes. I have 25 independent recollection that -- I remember him having it
1241 on the edge of the big dumpster, right there at the gate 2 -- or at the fence. 3 And I remember him having -- having it on 4 the edge of the dumpster and kind of back and forth in 5 our direction. 6 Q: And just for the record, you're 7 motioning -- 8 A: Supporting it. 9 Q: -- with your hands out -- 10 A: He was supporting -- 11 Q: -- in front of you, sort of swinging 12 it back and forth -- 13 A: Supporting it -- 14 Q: -- in front of you. 15 A: -- on the dumpster, yes. 16 Q: All right. The next notation you 17 have, pardon me, at the top of page 8: 18 "Prisoner loaded in van and CMU ordered 19 to withdraw back up down [something] 20 road." 21 A: Yeah. And that's -- that's an 22 assumption I made. I didn't see that happen. 23 Q: You didn't actually see the 24 individual who was -- 25 A: No.
1251 Q: -- overtaken by the left contact 2 squad? 3 A: That the contact squad, no. 4 Q: All right. And again just in terms 5 of the individual that was being arrested you saw him 6 being overran by -- by the front contact squad. 7 Am I putting that properly? 8 A: Well, yeah, the -- the contact squad 9 made initial contact. I saw him swing -- swing whatever 10 it was he had in his hands. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I believe it was a two by four (2x4). 13 And I'm not far behind them but the next thing I see and 14 I assumed it was the same guy is he was on his back 15 kicking wildly at officers who were trying to gain -- 16 gain control of him. 17 Q: And am I correct in assuming that 18 that wouldn't be the front contact squad or the left 19 contact squad that would be trying to gain control of 20 him, that would be the arrest team -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: -- that would come in behind, is that 23 right? 24 A: I believe it had to be the contact 25 squad because I was right behind them running and for him
1261 to hit and drop, the arrest team was behind me. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: So -- but like you say we're all 4 pretty close proximity but I'm going at a full run so I'm 5 -- I'm assuming it was the contact squad but I don't 6 know. 7 Q: And that would be the tactic of the 8 contact squad, that's something that you would train for 9 in order to -- to bring people into -- into a -- into 10 custody? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: That you would simply overrun them or 13 -- or bowl them down? 14 A: Overrun them, take control of them. 15 Q: Okay. And just in that respect, 16 Officer, at Tab -- at Tab 24 it is a transcript of 17 proceedings at the trial of Her Majesty the Queen v. 18 Cecil Bernard George and you testified at that trial in 19 July of 1996 in Sarnia? 20 You recall that? 21 A: I did. I did. 22 Q: And you've had a chance to look at 23 this transcript -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- before coming here today? And if
1271 I can ask you to turn your attention to the entries at 2 page 192. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Are you -- are you there? 7 A: Yes, I am. 8 Q: You see right in the middle of -- the 9 question: 10 "Was he the same or a different person 11 who you'd seen originally come out by 12 himself, make comments and go back in? 13 A: I can't say. I cannot say. There 14 was a lot of yelling, screaming, a lot 15 of war yelps. It was [a real -- pardon 16 me], it was really pandemonium at the 17 time so we went back and we were all 18 under control and these individuals 19 kept coming out, getting closer. This 20 one drew a line in the sand. 21 Q: Who drew a line in the sand? 22 A: Their spokesman. There was a 23 person I assumed was their spokesman. 24 He was vocalizing more than anyone else 25 and we were given the order for the
1281 team to punch out and the tactic was to 2 take the troublemakers and to take them 3 into custody and take the leaders and 4 that's the Crowd Management tactic. 5 So our mission at that time at the 6 punch-out was to arrest the people or 7 push them back in and they had all 8 kinds -- all kinds of room to get back 9 into the Park." 10 And then you continue on, right? And 11 that's consistent with what you've just told us? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Perhaps we can mark that 14 transcript as the next exhibit please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1440, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1440: Document Number 2002795. 18 Examination-In-Chief and 19 Cross- examination of Robert 20 Huntley in R. v. Cecil 21 Bernard George, July 16, 22 1996. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: And if I can ask you to look at the
1291 document at Tab 27, Officer, it's Inquiry Document 2 1004698 and it would appear to be an interview that you 3 were giving. It's some five (5) pages in length dated 4 February 17th, 1998. 5 That is your signature on that? 6 A: What document is this? 7 Q: Tab 27. 8 A: Yeah, I'm there. 9 Q: It's Inquiry Document 1004698. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Okay -- 12 A: Yes, I'm on there. 13 Q: -- five (5) -- five (5) page 14 document. 15 A: Yeah, I'm there. 16 Q: If you look on the last page -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- there's a signature there? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: That -- that is your signature? 21 A: That's my signature, yes. 22 Q: All right. Do you recall giving this 23 statement first of all, sir? 24 A: I -- I believe this was a statement 25 to the SIU.
1301 Q: All right. Maybe we'll mark that as 2 the next exhibit then. I think that's 1441. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1441: Document Number 1004698. 6 Signed interview statement of 7 Robert Huntley, February 17, 8 1998. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: And I just wanted to direct your 12 attention, Officer Huntley, to page 4, the fourth page of 13 that. Do you see that at the top of the page: 14 "Q: What was the position of the 15 person [pardon me] what was the 16 position of the arrested person when 17 the full punch out occurred? 18 A: [and it's handwritten] I don't 19 know." 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And I just wanted to take you to your 22 answer at the -- near the bottom of the page: 23 "Q: Bob, you were saying you thought 24 this was the person who was arrested. 25 A: I believe I saw an individual get
1311 overrun by the contact squad. Just 2 after that happened I observed an 3 individual on the ground struggling and 4 resisting arrest. 5 It turned out to be two (2) people and 6 I thought it was one (1). Then I went 7 forward because there were more people 8 coming out of the Park carrying clubs." 9 And then you do on to relate the incident 10 you've just told us about where a club was swung at you 11 and your shield was struck. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. And when you say 14 "It turned out to be two (2) people and 15 I thought it was one (1)." 16 What are you referring to there, if you 17 can recall for us, sir? 18 A: There was so much going on that night 19 and I made some assumptions. And one (1) assumption was 20 that the person who was on the ground was the one (1) 21 person that I found was arrested after the whole affair. 22 So I assumed that was Cecil Bernard 23 George. This just makes it very confusing. But when I 24 went to give evidence at his trial, I was told by another 25 officer who was familiar with him, that that person out
1321 with the 2 x 4 wasn't Cecil Bernard George. 2 So I -- I made assumptions that the person 3 with the two by four (2x4) got knocked down, was on -- on 4 the ground kicking at the officers was also the person 5 that was arrested in the -- and put in the prisoner van. 6 And I don't know if that's the case. 7 Q: I see. And you don't know today 8 whether that's -- 9 A: And I still don't know today if that 10 person that was on his back kicking wildly, was the 11 person that I went to give evidence for the trial. 12 Q: And did you see specifically, sir, 13 how that person who was kicking as you say, did you see 14 how he ended up down on the ground on his back? 15 A: Only assumed because he got run over 16 by -- 17 Q: You didn't -- you didn't see it 18 though. That's all I'm asking. 19 A: I -- saw him turn and swing his 20 club -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- and then the next I see somebody 23 on -- on the ground. 24 Q: All right, thank you. And in terms 25 of the attempts by officers to take custody of this
1331 individual on the ground, can you be any more specific 2 than what you've already told us? 3 A: I saw a number of officers around him 4 trying to gain control of him. Trying to -- but it was a 5 split second. There was so much going on in the Park 6 that night, it was -- it was being taken care of. 7 Q: All right. Let me just take you back 8 to your statement then that you were reviewing for us at 9 Tab 20. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Okay. And I believe I stopped you at 12 page 5. You were reading the narrative. I think you 13 were just finished with: 14 "The spotlights were still on us and 15 rocks were still being thrown in our 16 direction. We continued to back up." 17 I think that's where I stopped you, 18 Officer, on page 5 about a quarter of the way down the 19 paragraph. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: And then it continues and I wonder if 22 you would just continue with that from "I heard". 23 A: "I heard the bus rev up. I heard the 24 bus rev up it's engine. [Excuse me] I 25 thought it was blocked in by the
1341 dumpster. 2 The bus suddenly came out and beared 3 down on us. I was on the non lake side 4 of the road. It was obvious to me that 5 he was coming directly at us in order 6 to hit us. 7 He was changing gears, driving like a 8 race car. I drew my Sig sidearm. My 9 Sig and pointed at the driver. 10 I was ready to shoot but at that moment 11 the bus was on me. I jumped to my left 12 and narrowly escaped being struck by 13 the bus. I 14 did not discharge my firearm. 15 I moved to my left, the bus went by me. 16 I hit the ground because I could hear 17 gunfire. 18 The pop sounds were muffled by the 19 Crowd Management Unit helmets we wore. 20 I saw the bus returning reverse. I 21 then noticed a car bearing down on me. 22 I ran towards the bush on the lake 23 side. 24 I saw the car veer and deliberately 25 turn to our guys who were seeking
1351 coverage towards the ditch. 2 I saw two (2) or three (3) guys go onto 3 the hood of this car after the car hit 4 them. I saw one of our guys underneath 5 the car. I was five (5) feet away from 6 the front of the car when it hit our 7 guys. I saw the car reverse in the 8 direction of the compound. 9 I didn't see it go back in. I cannot 10 describe the car. The guys on top of 11 it as well as the headlights obscured 12 my view. 13 The bus had also disappeared down the 14 road. The gunfire ended around this 15 time. We all got together and did a 16 head count to establish injuries and 17 then reformed. We continued backwards. 18 We found a radio left behind on the 19 road. We then returned to the tactical 20 operations centre." 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: All right. And let me just ask you 25 to turn to your notes at Tab 17 as well, officer. If you
1361 can go to page 8. If you wish to refer to your actual 2 written notes, you may certainly do so. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Again, it is your written notes of 7 the same events that you've just described in this 8 particular statement. 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: To the middle of that page, page 8, 11 okay: 12 "We moved down the roadway backing and 13 I heard the bus being revved up. The 14 school bus moved onto the road 15 allowance and started coming towards 16 us. It began [is that accelerating?]" 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Right. 19 "I travelled directly towards my..." 20 Now, perhaps I should ask you to read 21 that. 22 A: Okay. 23 "Travelled directly towards my unit on 24 the south side of the roadway. I took 25 out my pistol and pointed it at the
1371 driver's window. Had to run out of the 2 way, nearly missed being run over -- 3 nearly missed being run over. Bus 4 passed at a fast rate of speed. 5 Right about this time I heard shots 6 being fired. They are not loud, just 7 popping noises. 8 I was on the north shoulder and I went 9 prone. The bus suddenly came back down 10 the road in reverse. I still had my 11 gun out. I contemplated shooting at 12 the tires but did not. 13 Suddenly the car came right at us and 14 everyone started scrambling to get off 15 the road. The car veered right as it 16 came upon us. 17 A number of our members were hit by the 18 car and I saw one (1) member partly 19 under the front. 20 If he had continued a few more feet, I 21 would have been hurt. He backed up -- 22 he backed up and retreated. 23 I had my gun on the driver's front 24 window, but never shot. Both vehicles 25 deliberately driven into our members
1381 with intent to kill. 2 We got everyone together and retreated 3 to the TOC." 4 Q: All right. Let me just stop you 5 there then. Those two (2) statements, that is your 6 statement together with your notes, does that assist in 7 your recollection of the events that happened that 8 evening? 9 A: They're not exactly right. When I 10 make my notes, I make them to refresh my memory. 11 Q: Right. 12 A: And they don't contain everything 13 that happened in them. And I try to make them as soon as 14 practical; I made these notes the next day. 15 And when I made those notes, and when I 16 made that statement, I said the -- the bus reversed 17 before the car came. 18 I've come to realize that's not the case 19 and I -- I think of it, that -- that's right. The bus 20 came through, I jumped out of the way and I heard the 21 gunfire and I went prone on the north shoulder of the 22 road. 23 And then all of a sudden the car came 24 after it, and I jumped up and then went into the -- 25 jumped off the road and the car made a sharp right hand
1391 turn. There was a bunch of our members standing on the 2 side of the road, or just off the road, and the -- as the 3 car was coming down, it just made a right hand turn right 4 into our members, and I just remember seeing -- seeing 5 them go up over the hood and one (1) person partially 6 underneath the front. 7 And then I heard gunfire again. 8 Q: And then you heard the gunfire. 9 A: Gunfire again. 10 Q: Again, I'm sorry. 11 A: A second time. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: Yeah. And then -- and I went prone 14 again. And when I was prone the second time, the bus -- 15 the car had already left and the bus reversed. And 16 probably when I was doing my notes, I confused those two 17 (2) times. 18 But -- because I remember laying prone on 19 the road, my second time, watching the bus reverse and 20 taking aim at the tire, and I never shot. 21 Q: All right. And you had drew your 22 weapon when the bus was coming by initially, I think 23 you've told us. 24 A: Hmm hmm. It was -- 25 Q: The statement indicated a Sig. I
1401 take that to be a Sig Sauer, you were carrying the .40 2 calibre? 3 A: My -- my side arm, yes, my pistol. 4 Q: All right. And aside from drawing 5 your -- your pistol, you did not discharge it either at 6 the bus, or, as you've indicated, at the car? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You'd indicated earlier that when you 9 were engaged with the individual with the long club, that 10 you had struck him with your ASP. I take it you would 11 have put your ASP away. Do you have any recollection of 12 exchanging that for your sidearm? 13 A: I really don't know what I did with 14 my ASP. I -- I had it at the end of the night so I must 15 have put it back in its holster or my pocket or... 16 Q: All right. As the bus or the -- as 17 the bus went by you, do you recall there being any shots 18 being taken by any of the officers that you would have 19 been in view of? 20 A: I had jumped to my left. My squad 21 was all on the -- I'll refer to it as the south side of 22 the road, so that's towards the highway, Highway 21, 23 excuse me, and it was -- it was coming. And like I said 24 the -- the driver of the -- the bus was -- he was really 25 revving the engine and switching gears as fast as he
1411 could. I distinctly remember that. 2 I jumped to the left. And Peter Osborne, 3 my support constable, he jumped to the right. And just 4 as the bus was -- just as I did that I heard the popping 5 noises, and it probably took a fraction of a second to 6 recognize it as -- as gunshots, but we had the Crowd 7 Management helmets on and -- and so I just hit the -- hit 8 ground. 9 Q: Could you tell where the gunfire was 10 coming from? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you see anything that would be a 13 firearm signature, muzzle flash or any such thing from 14 the -- coming from the bus? 15 A: No, I was -- I was on the ground. So 16 I've got my helmet and everything, I got as low as I 17 could, so I wasn't looking up -- 18 Q: I see. 19 A: -- until the bus passed. 20 Q: Do you recall seeing any -- any TRU 21 members in the vicinity? 22 A: No, I do not. 23 Q: I stopped you when you were reading 24 at page 10 of your notes, at Tab 17, Exhibit P-1437. 25 Perhaps you can just continue from there. I believe you
1421 had just told us that you gathered everybody together and 2 retreated to the TOC? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Okay. Yeah. 7 "We got everyone together and retreated 8 to the TOC. Spoken to by Inspector 9 Carson. The team gathered equipment. 10 Cloes advised he had a sore knee and 11 ankle." 12 And I learned that that was -- he was one 13 (1) of the people hit by the car. 14 "And Christie drove him to Sarnia 15 Hospital." 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Yeah. Just continue with that. 20 A: Oh. 21 Q: What is the next entry? 22 A: Okay. 23 "Attend cottage and discuss incident. 24 03:00 off duty." 25 Q: Just tell us what does that mean,
1431 "attend cottage and discuss incident?" Where is the 2 cottage? Who were you discussing this with? 3 A: The cottage is where we -- we were 4 staying in Grand Bend, some members; I wasn't because I 5 had a hotel room for my -- on my own. 6 This incident was probably the most 7 violent incident -- it was the most violent incident I 8 was ever in in my career in the OPP. I really didn't 9 know what happened that night, there was -- so much 10 happened. 11 I knew somebody was shot at that time but 12 I didn't know how many people were shot. And I also 13 didn't know how many people were arrested; I thought two 14 (2) people were arrested that night. 15 So it was traumatic. I was very upset. I 16 know my guys were upset from conversations I had with 17 them. I remember Willy Smith was very, very upset after 18 this happened on the roadway. I'd say traumatic would be 19 a good way to describe it. 20 And I was -- and I wasn't immune to that. 21 I was -- it was very difficult for me too. And so we 22 went back and I -- I certainly didn't want to stay in my 23 room by myself and I -- and everybody was upset and I 24 thought the best thing to do was get everybody together 25 and -- and just talk about it.
1441 Q: All right. Your notes would indicate 2 that upon arriving back at the TOC: 3 "Spoken to by Inspector Carson. Team 4 gathered equipment." 5 All right. Do you recall any of that 6 discussion with Inspector Carson? 7 A: I don't remember what exactly he 8 said. I just remember he -- he was somewhat emotional 9 about -- so obviously he was very upset about the whole 10 incident. 11 Q: Right. And I take it that your next 12 entry: 13 "Cloes advised he had a sore knee and 14 Christie [pardon me, it says] and 15 ankle. Christie drove him to Sarnia 16 Hospital." 17 Do you see that? 18 A: Okay. I'll just -- yeah, okay. I 19 just went too far here. 20 Q: Just before your entry of attending 21 the cottage and discussing the events. 22 A: Okay, yes. 23 "Cloes advised he had a -- a sore knee 24 and ankle." 25 So --
1451 Q: That -- 2 A: -- Christie, his partner, drove him 3 to Sarnia Hospital to get checked out. 4 Q: And that would have been under your 5 instructions? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Yeah. Okay. Just one moment please. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And at the cottage, as you're with 12 your -- with the rest of your -- your team to discuss the 13 incident, what was the nature of the discussion? 14 A: I don't remember specifics about the 15 discussion. Like I say, everybody was pretty upset, 16 especially with the bus and the car incident, shots being 17 fired. 18 So it was an opportunity for us to just 19 get together. And I -- I don't really recall the 20 specifics of exactly what we talked about. 21 Q: All right. I take it we're now into 22 the early morning hours of September the 7th? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And if we can go to your notes 25 at Tab 17 again. Just before we move off of that, do you
1461 know what cottage you're referring to when you say you 2 attended back to the cottage? 3 A: It was at the hotel we were staying 4 at; they had rooms, and I think separate buildings. 5 Q: And which hotel? 6 A: I don't recall the name of the hotel. 7 Q: All right. Did you make any further 8 notes, sir, as to any involvement that you would have had 9 at that point in time? 10 A: To deal with that incident? 11 Q: Yes, sir. 12 A: I don't believe I made any further 13 notes. I gave the statement on the 7th, the night of the 14 7th and 8th. 15 Q: All right. Maybe before we go there, 16 I'll ask you to turn to the document at Tab 22. It's, 17 again, a logger tape Number 147 from the Chatham 18 Communication Centre, it's Region 6. It bears the date 19 September 7th, 1995 and apparently the time of 11:31, 20 which we know is plus seven (7). 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you see right there the Chatham 23 Communication Centre, it says: 24 "Yeah, can you attend the Blue Water 25 Motel -- Blue Water Motel, get a hold
1471 of Sergeant Huntley -- Sergeant Huntley 2 and have him contact the Command Post 3 ASAP. Authority Sergeant Derus." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Does that assist you at all, sir, in 6 recalling the name of the hotel? 7 A: That could have been the name of the 8 hotel, yes. 9 Q: All right. Perhaps we can just mark 10 that as an exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1442, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1442: Transcript of Region 06, 14 Chatham Communications Centre 15 - 2215, September 07, 1995, 16 11:31hrs. Chatham 17 Communications Centre, Logger 18 tape number 147, Track 7, 19 disc 7 of 20. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 22 Q: You would have reported back onto 23 duty, sir, at approximately 2:00 p.m. on the 7th of 24 September? 25 A: Yes.
1481 Q: And do your notes indicate to you, or 2 do you have a recollection of what tasks you would have 3 been assigned to, coming back onto duty at that point? 4 A: I've -- I've noted here that I sent 5 Pete to a doctor; now Pete was Pete Osborne. He was my 6 support Constable that night. He had something imbedded 7 in his lip from when the bus went by. 8 He was -- he was really affected by the 9 bus. He still talks about seeing the dual wheels pass by 10 his head. And somehow during that incident, he got 11 something imbedded in his lip and I sent him to the hosp 12 -- to the doctor and had it removed. I'm not sure what 13 it was. 14 I remained at the command post and we were 15 assigned CMU duties, so we were standing by at the -- the 16 command post. 17 Q: And you were manning checkpoints? 18 A: According to this, we were standing 19 by at the command post. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So I don't -- I don't know -- there 22 were checkpoints up there, but I don't know if my team 23 was -- was manning them. 24 Q: All right. 25
1491 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If I can ask you to refer to the 4 document at Tab 23. It's Inquiry document 1002419. I 5 have two (2) pages of an excerpt. There's actually a 6 total of a hundred and eighty-four (184) pages here, sir. 7 It's Exhibit P-426 and the second page of 8 that, page 120, second page in. 9 A: Yes. 10 A: I'm going to tell you that that is 11 for the 7th of September. 12 You see the entry at 17:23 hours? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: "Rick Derus advises Jim Gordon that 15 Rob Huntley has drawn up a security 16 plan for the building. Bill Dennis 17 instructed not to make a plan." 18 A: I see that, yes. 19 Q: Yeah. Does that assist you at all in 20 -- in recalling what it is that you would have done on 21 that particular day? 22 A: No, not really. Like I -- I really 23 don't recall what we were doing and I'm really depending 24 on my notes here. 25 And -- and I've got, "assigned CMU
1501 duties." And this tells me we were -- probably part of 2 that duties was to draw up a security plan, but I don't 3 know. 4 Q: All right. You don't have any 5 independent recollection -- 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: -- of that? All right. Sir, I've 8 already taken you to the document at Tab 24, that is your 9 testimony at the trial of Cecil Bernard George. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you see that there's a further 12 document at Tab 25. It's Inquiry document 3000846. And 13 this is your testimony from the trial of Nicholas Abraham 14 Cottrelle. 15 Do you see that, on March 25th, 1997? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And at page 79 and on, is your 18 examination in-chief as well as your cross-examination? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you've had a chance to review 21 that before coming and testifying here today? 22 A: Yes, I have. 23 Q: All right. If we could mark that as 24 the next exhibit, please? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1443, Your Honour.
1511 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1443: Document Number 2000846. 2 Examination-In-Chief and 3 Cross- Examination of Robert 4 Huntley in R. v. Nicholas 5 Abraham Cottrelle, March 25, 6 1997. 7 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Tab 25. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Aside from your testifying at those 13 two (2) criminal trials, do you have any recollection of 14 being involved any further in the Ipperwash matter, other 15 than you've already testified to? 16 A: No. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: I think that's all of 18 the questions that I have in-chief, Mr. Commissioner, of 19 this witness. And I note the time is just before noon. 20 Maybe we could canvass My Friends and 21 obtain from them their estimates as to how long they 22 might be? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, let's 24 do that. 25 Does anybody have any questions for this
1521 witness? 2 Ms. Jackson...? 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Twenty (20) 4 minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty -- 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Twenty (20) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 8 Alexander...? 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) to 10 thirty (30) minutes. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Fifteen (15) to thirty 12 (30). 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 14 Esmonde...? 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: An hour to an hour 16 and a half. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: One -- one hour to an 18 hour and a half. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 Scullion...? 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thirty (30) to 22 forty-five (45) minutes. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Thirty (30) to forty- 24 five (45) minutes, Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms.
1531 Johnson...? 2 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Thirty (30) to 3 forty-five (45) minutes, depending on what My Friends ask 4 before me. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Thirty (30) to forty- 6 five (45) as well. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Mr. 8 Falconer's not here. Would you like to estimate for him? 9 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Yes -- forty-five (45) 10 to an hour. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Forty-five (45) 12 minutes to an hour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What does 14 that add up to, roughly? 15 MR. DONALD WORME: We're looking at just 16 somewhat over four (4) hours. So there is a very good 17 likelihood we can get finished today, Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 19 finish it today. We would like to finish it this 20 afternoon, if it's at all possible not to have to bring 21 this witness back. 22 How does it add up, Mr. Millar? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: We'll call my 24 mathematician friend here. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's three (3) -- the
1541 low is three point three (3.3), the high is four point 2 eight (4.8). 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 There's a chance that we'll get done. Do you want to 5 adjourn for lunch now? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I think it would be 7 appropriate if we could adjourn now and commence then, at 8 one o'clock or so. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll break 10 for lunch now. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 12 adjourned until 12:55. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 11:52 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 1:00 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: -- just before Ms. 22 Tuck-Jackson rises for her cross-examination, I just 23 wanted to ask Sergeant Huntley about his knowledge of the 24 production by certain OPP members of mugs and T-shirts in 25 connection with the Ipperwash incident.
1551 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 3 Q: Firstly, had you ever -- were you 4 aware of such items? Did you ever come into possession 5 of such items, whether by purchase or otherwise? 6 A: I purchased a mug and a T-shirt. 7 Q: And what did you do with these items? 8 A: I destroyed them. 9 Q: When? 10 A: After it became known that they were 11 offensive. When I -- I bought them, I certainly didn't 12 consider it offensive. It was -- but once I found out 13 that it was offensive to people, then I destroyed them. 14 Q: All right. Thank you, sir. Those 15 are all my questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 23 Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 afternoon.
1561 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Huntley. 3 A: Good afternoon. I wonder if we 4 begin, sir -- actually, I should introduce myself, I'm 5 sorry. My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm going to ask 6 you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: I'd like to, if I can, please, take 9 you to Tab 1, your curriculum vitae. It's been marked as 10 Exhibit P-1425 in these proceedings. 11 And My -- My Friend, Mr. Worme, took you 12 through aspects of your CV and there's just one (1) area 13 that I wanted to -- to highlight with you, if I could. 14 And I'll begin with this question. Prior 15 to the period of September the 4th to the 6th, 1995, did 16 you have any First Nations culture training? 17 A: No, I did not. 18 Q: All right. I see, sir, at page 2 of 19 your CV, that in 2005 you attended a First Nations 20 awareness seminar. 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And we've heard some evidence at this 23 Inquiry about a four (4) day program that's been designed 24 by the Ontario Provincial Police. 25 Is that the program that you attended?
1571 A: I believe so. 2 Q: All right. Can you tell us, sir, 3 what, if any, impact that program had upon you, 4 personally, in the approach that you took to your 5 policing? 6 A: Well, it was a recent -- recent 7 course. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: It give me -- gave me a better 10 understanding on the history of the First Nations people 11 in Ontario -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- with the -- the residential 14 schools and -- and give me an insight into the -- the 15 culture. And -- and I think I came out better for it. 16 Q: Okay. Thank you. You spoke also 17 about your attendance at the sandy parking lot on the 18 morning of September the 6th, when you were involved in 19 the removal of a collection of picnic tables. 20 And could you assist us, sir, as to an 21 estimate of the number of officers who attended at that 22 intersection for the purpose of removing those tables. 23 And when I speak of the officers, I'm 24 referring to those who actually physically removed them 25 and those who were providing cover for their removal.
1581 A: I don't recall -- recall the number 2 of officers, no. 3 Q: We've heard some evidence that the 4 number was approximately, or within the range of ten (10) 5 to fifteen (15) officers. 6 Would -- does that refresh you in your 7 recollection? 8 A: That -- that's possible. I just 9 don't know how many officers there were. 10 Q: I understand. You told us of your 11 observation, that as the group of officers approached the 12 area, you noticed, I think you said two (2) to three (3) 13 individuals who were actually in the sandy parking lot. 14 Do I have that correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And did you take those individuals to 17 be occupiers from the Park? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: All right. And is it fair to say, 20 from your vantage point, what you saw was that when the 21 officers arrived, those individuals moved back into the 22 Park? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: All right. And is it also fair to 25 say that there was no physical confrontation between the
1591 officers and the individuals who moved back into the 2 Park? 3 A: There was none. 4 Q: And you'd agree with me that while 5 the officers were there, those individuals did not return 6 into the sandy parking lot? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: You also spoke of a decision that you 9 made later that day, the early evening of September the 10 6th, to move Checkpoint Alpha. And in that regard I want 11 you to turn to Tab 19 in your brief. It's a statement 12 that you made, it's marked as Exhibit P-1438. 13 And I want to take you, if I may, to the 14 very bottom of your statement, the last three (3) lines: 15 "Checkpoint 'A' was pulled back when 16 the night shift replaced day shift to 17 protect the officers from objects being 18 thrown at them." 19 Now when I looked at your notebook entry, 20 I couldn't find a time that might assist us as to when 21 that decision was made. 22 But I can tell you, sir, that we've heard 23 some evidence of a radio transmission that was heard at 24 19:37 to the affect that a unit, it's a soft TAC Number 25 24:23, advises Lima 2 that Checkpoint Alpha has now been
1601 moved back to the TOC. 2 Does that assist you in refreshing your 3 memory as to the approximate timeframe when the movement 4 of that checkpoint would have occurred? 5 A: What time do you have there? 6 Q: 19:37. So just after 7:30 p.m. 7 A: Well I believe I was off at eight 8 o'clock or back at the CP around that time. So it would 9 have been before I went back to the CP. But I don't -- I 10 don't really recall what time it was. 11 Q: I understand. I gather what you're 12 telling me is that that's consistent with the time range 13 when that would have occurred? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Because you told us the checkpoint 16 was moved at the time that the shift change was 17 occurring. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: All right. Fair enough. Now, I want 20 it to be clear as to what motivated or informed your 21 decision to move the checkpoint, because in your 22 statement it indicates that you did so to protect the 23 officers from objects being thrown at them. 24 So can you tell us, please, why did you 25 feel it was necessary to move that checkpoint at that
1611 time of the evening? 2 A: There was a lot of activity going on 3 inside the Park. 4 Q: At that particular time? 5 A: Yeah. I believe there was a lot of 6 people -- more people in the Park. I can't give you a 7 number. And with the incident the night before, with the 8 rocks being thrown at the cruisers, I just -- that 9 position was really close to the Park, I just felt that 10 it was to their benefit to be out of there in the dark. 11 Q: Okay. You -- you referred to an 12 increase in the number of individuals that -- that you 13 noticed in the Park. 14 Was there anything more about those 15 individuals that caused you a concern that the officers 16 at that checkpoint may have faced an increase risk of 17 harm? 18 A: Through the day, individuals were 19 seen carrying clubs, but I don't recall anything else 20 really specific about that. 21 Q: All right. So you were concerned 22 that throughout the day you had seen individuals in the 23 Park carrying clubs. And you were also concerned, more 24 towards the evening hour, that there was an increase in 25 activity within the Park.
1621 A: That's right. 2 Q: All right. That coupled with what 3 had transpired the night before, that's what informed 4 your decision to move the checkpoint? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Thank you. We heard yesterday from 7 Wayde Jacklin that as he, within the CMU, moved down the 8 road, effectively turned a corner and was able to see the 9 sandy parking lot, he saw a number of individuals in the 10 sandy parking lot who then moved back into the Park as 11 the CMU approached. 12 And you've given us similar evidence 13 today. But I want to ask you something a little bit 14 different. And I want to take you, if I can, to Tab 24 15 of your materials. It's been marked as Exhibit 1440, 16 this was your testimony at the trial of the Queen and 17 Cecil Bernard George. 18 And, in particular, I'd like you to -- to 19 go to pages 204 and 205. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And what I'm going to suggest to you, 24 sir, is that, not only as you approached that sandy 25 parking lot did you see individuals in the parking lot,
1631 but also that you saw individuals in that parking lot 2 holding objects. 3 And if I can begin, sir, at page 204 at 4 line 20: 5 "Q: All right. As you're moving down 6 the road you're assuming that the 7 people you're going to confront, are 8 you -- you've defined them protestors? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And you described how you came 11 down in this block formation to the 12 point where you had to turn to the left 13 a bit in order to get into the parking 14 lot area, correct? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And at that point you saw a few 17 Native Canadian people standing in the 18 parking lot area, is that true? 19 A: I don't know the exact number, 20 more than two (2). 21 Q: Five (5)? Six (6)? Eight (8)? 22 A: At least a dozen. 23 Q: All right. And I take it you 24 didn't count them, for example? 25 A: No.
1641 Q: When you turned and looked into 2 that parking lot these people were -- 3 in essence, they were standing in the 4 parking lot, and when they saw you they 5 started to move away from you; is that 6 correct? 7 A: As we moved towards them they were 8 all carrying objects in their hands. 9 As we moved towards them, they moved 10 back into the Park." 11 And that's where I want to finish. Now, 12 first of all, do you adopt as correct those series of 13 answers that you gave in response to the questions asked? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. You told us that there 16 were -- rather you -- you told the trial judge that there 17 were at least a dozen individuals in the parking lot, and 18 each one of them was carrying an object in their hands. 19 Can you assist us as to what types of 20 objects they were carrying, as best as you could tell 21 from your vantage point? 22 A: It would have been sticks or that 23 type of object; long objects in their hands. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I don't know what they were made of.
1651 Q: I understand. Something that at the 2 time you perceived to be a weapon; is that fair? 3 A: That's correct, yes. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Thank you. Sergeant Huntley, those 9 are my questions. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 Mr. Alexander...? 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Huntley. 15 A: Good afternoon. 16 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 17 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 18 and several members of the George family, including Sam 19 George who is sitting here beside me. 20 And while there are several areas of 21 interest to us there's only one (1) area I'm going to 22 canvass with you, as I expect My Friends will canvass the 23 remaining areas, and that's with respect to Checkpoint 24 Alpha on the day of September the 6th. 25 Now, if I understand your evidence
1661 correctly, you were the one who was responsible for 2 moving Checkpoint Alpha to the corner of East Parkway 3 Drive and Army Camp Road, correct? 4 A: Yeah, at the corner there. Yes. 5 Q: And you were on mobile patrol that 6 day? 7 A: That was done in the morning. I was 8 on mobile patrol through the day, that's correct, yes. 9 Q: So you would have been at the 10 checkpoint throughout the day? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: You would have visited throughout the 13 day? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Could you assist us with letting me 16 know of what does that check -- what did that checkpoint 17 consist of? 18 Did it consist of one (1), two (2), three 19 (3), four (4) cruisers, the number of officers? 20 A: I know there was two (2) -- at least 21 two (2) officers there -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- Smith and Stirling. If there was 24 more officers, I don't know. 25 And I don't know how many cars were there.
1671 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: Can I have Exhibit P-1284 placed 5 before the Witness? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Thank you. 10 Q: And for the reference of My Friends, 11 this is the map, and the map with the Ipperwash 12 checkpoints with the list of materials that -- the list 13 of officers at the various checkpoints and the various 14 locations on the day of September 6th and 7th, that's 15 been prepared by the OPP to assist us, as a guide. 16 Now if you look at the left side of that 17 document, you'll see an "A", which we understand 18 represents Alpha. 19 And the day shift, and just counting the 20 number of officers there, there seems to be eight (8) 21 officers who would have been assigned to Alpha during the 22 day shift. 23 Does that assist your recollection in 24 terms of the number of officers who would have been at 25 the checkpoint during the day?
1681 A: I do not recall that many officers 2 being there. 3 Q: Okay. But it's your evidence that 4 there would be at least one (1) cruiser and two (2) 5 officers at all times? 6 A: It would be manned at all times. And 7 I remember Stirling and Smith being there. 8 Q: And there would be other officers in 9 other cruisers that would be there as necessary or that 10 would be there throughout the day? 11 A: Yeah. And I don't recall what kind 12 of order that was. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Do you recall where the checkpoint 17 was located in that area? 18 A: When I moved it forward? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: It was right at the intersection, I 21 believe. 22 Q: Okay. Can I ask that a copy of 23 Exhibit P-23 be placed before -- beside the Witness? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1691 Q: While this is being set up, Sergeant 2 Huntley, I'll explain what this is. This is a drawing 3 that was prepared by Stan Thompson as part of the SIU 4 investigation, based on his observations on September the 5 20th and based on a survey that was done on -- a 6 municipal survey that he checked as well. 7 And the approximate scale of this map is 8 1:100. So one 1 centimetre equals approximately 1 metre. 9 But it's -- that's sort of what this is. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And this is a depiction of the 12 intersection at East Parkway and Army Camp Road. Now, if 13 I can take you to your statement before we go there, at 14 Tab 19, which is Exhibit P-1438, Inquiry document number 15 2003600. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And it says at the last sentence of 20 the second last paragraph: 21 "I then had checkpoint 'A' moved to the 22 corner of Army Camp Road and East 23 Parkway Drive. This was located at the 24 base of [redacted] driveway." 25 There should be a laser pointer to your
1701 right. Does that statement assist you with your 2 recollection as to where the checkpoint would have been 3 located? 4 A: Well, looking at this map -- 5 Q: And I'm going to ask you to look at 6 the map and see if you can -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- point out to us where the 9 checkpoint would have been located. 10 A: Looking at the map, I believe it was 11 in here somewhere. I don't know if it was right at the 12 corner -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- or here, or here. It was in this 15 general vicinity. 16 Q: Now, you'll -- 17 A: I -- if I -- I recall correctly, and 18 that's -- that was the corner. 19 Q: You'll note, according to the map -- 20 you indicated the curve where Army Camp Road and East 21 Parkway Drive turn around. 22 Now, the reason why I'm asking this is, 23 according to this exhibit, if you look, the driveway that 24 I understand is in question is actually the driveway 25 further up, right adjacent to the sandy parking lot.
1711 Do you see that, sir? 2 A: This driveway there? 3 Q: Right there, yes. So I'm asking you 4 if that assists you in terms of where the checkpoint was 5 actually located. 6 A: I believe it was located right on the 7 road here. 8 Q: So you still say it was on the road? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: It was not -- in your view, it was 11 not located on the sandy parking lot? 12 A: No. 13 Q: It wasn't on the sand, it was on 14 pavement? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. But it would have been right 17 where the sandy parking lot began, correct? 18 A: It's -- it's in that area. I -- I 19 can't tell you right now exactly where they're located, 20 but it's in that area. 21 Q: And you would have been in a close 22 enough location that mirrors -- that light reflected from 23 the mirrors would have been able to reach the officers at 24 that point? 25 A: Yes.
1721 Q: Do you have any idea how far the 2 checkpoint was away from the fence? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No idea? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Any idea in terms of -- was it a few 7 metres, was it a lot -- was it a large distance? Nothing 8 that -- you can't assist us at all with that? 9 A: I'd just be guessing, no. So no. 10 Q: And do you have an idea for 11 approximately how long the checkpoint was located in that 12 area? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No idea? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you know approximately when you 17 moved it in the morning? 18 A: Well, I -- I believe it was moved 19 there after we removed -- after the picnic tables were 20 removed. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: So from that time until we -- we 23 moved it out at night. 24 Q: So it would have been let's say 9:00, 25 ten o'clock on an outside at the morning?
1731 A: That would be fair. 2 Q: And say -- Ms. Tuck-Jackson took you 3 to a transcript that -- radio transmission at a little 4 after 7:30, so 7:30? 5 A: That -- that would be fair. 6 Q: So it would be approx -- that would 7 be if I'm doing the math appropriately in my head, that 8 would be about ten and a half (10 1/2) hours at minimum? 9 A: It could be. 10 Q: Perhaps as much as eleven and a half 11 (11 1/2) or twelve (12) hours? 12 A: I -- I really don't know because I 13 wasn't there at the checkpoint all day and -- 14 Q: No. That's fair enough. But you're 15 one the who -- I do understand that you're the one who 16 moved the checkpoint there -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- and the one who ended up removing 19 it at the end of the day? 20 A: Yeah. Yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I'd like to take you now to your 25 notes at -- located at Tab 17 which is Inquiry Document
1741 Number 1004701, Exhibit P-1437. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And I'm going to take you to pages 3 6 and 4 of these notes. That's the page 3 and 4 in the 7 bottom right hand corner. 8 A: Of my handwritten notes? 9 Q: Of your handwritten notes. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Now, as I understand your evidence 12 you would have written these notes on September the 7th, 13 correct? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And the notes starting on page 3 at 16 06:40. Sorry at -- it appears 05:00. That would be the 17 notes for September the 6th, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then that extends through, for 20 the next few pages, up until -- but the key factor I'm 21 interested in is on page 4 where it says, "Attend 22 debriefing at Command Post", which if I understand your 23 evidence correctly, would have occurred between 7:30 -- 24 about 7:30 or eight o'clock that evening. 25 A: Whereabouts are you on this?
1751 Q: About the seventh, ninth line down 2 from the top. 3 A: "Attend debriefing CP." 4 Q: Yeah. And that would have been at 5 about 7:30, eight o'clock in the evening that night? 6 A: Yeah it's around that time. 7 Q: And then the rest of the notes would 8 have been a summary of what you saw during the day, 9 correct? In terms of the major incidents. 10 A: I believe that -- that night. 11 Q: That day. Because if you look at -- 12 I'm looking at the times, right? 13 A: Okay when I attended debriefing at 14 the CP that ends my notes for the day. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: And then it goes on from there. 17 Q: To what -- what occurred at the 18 events -- 19 A: Later on, yes. 20 Q: -- in the evening. I'm focussing 21 before that. 22 A: Oh, okay. 23 Q: So I'm focussing from the 05:00 to 24 attend CP and that would have been your notes of what you 25 considered the major incidents for the day, correct?
1761 A: Yes. 2 Q: And if I note right before it says: 3 "Attend debriefing." 4 It says: 5 "No further incidents of real 6 concerns." 7 Correct? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: That's what I have written there, 12 yes. 13 Q: So I'm going to suggest to you that 14 aside from the incidents that -- the other notes that you 15 have here there were no other real incidents of further 16 concerns given, that that's what's in your notes? 17 A: Now, I don't know if that refers to 18 no further incidents of real concern as a result of 19 moving those picnic tables and witness -- because I've 20 got nothing between that so I don't know if that's 21 referring to the end of the day or the end of that 22 incident. I -- I can't tell you that. 23 Q: I'm going to suggest giving the 24 timing it refers to the end of the day because there's a 25 very large gap there and you do put in other incidents
1771 throughout the day in terms of other things that you 2 report. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yeah. Okay. Going back further in my 7 notes, yeah, that's -- that's probably at the end of the 8 day. 9 Q: Okay. And so at the end of your -- 10 at the end of the day shift on September the 6th -- you 11 don't need to refer to it -- I don't believe you'll have 12 to refer to your notes at this point. 13 At the end of the day shift on September 14 the 6th you would have gone down to move -- to remove 15 Checkpoint Alpha and speak to the officers at that point; 16 is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there wasn't anything going on at 19 that point, correct? 20 A: I don't have any notes on that and I 21 really don't recall. 22 Q: And that would have been at the end 23 of the day shift so that would have been around 7:30, 24 eight o'clock? 25 A: Hmm hmm. Yes.
1781 Q: Do you have any recollection as to 2 whether any of the officers at Checkpoint Alpha reported 3 to you that they thought that the occupiers were going to 4 come out of the Park that night and take over the parking 5 lot? 6 A: There -- one (1) recollection of 7 conversation I had with an officer there was John Spencer 8 who was down on the beach and he was quite concerned 9 about increased activity. 10 Q: He was concerned about increased 11 activity? 12 A: With -- yes -- 13 Q: But was he -- 14 A: -- from the occupiers. 15 Q: But was he concerned about the 16 occupiers coming out of the Park to take over the parking 17 lot? 18 A: I never got that information. 19 Q: And did you report that information 20 to your superior officers? I haven't been able to find 21 anything in your notes -- 22 A: From -- 23 Q: -- to that effect. 24 A: -- John Spencer? 25 Q: Yes.
1791 A: I believe I would have put that 2 forward. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And I didn't note that. 5 Q: But you did not note that? 6 A: No, I didn't. 7 Q: Thank you, Sergeant Huntley, those 8 are my questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 Ms. Esmonde...? 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 13 Q: Good day, sir, my name -- 14 A: Good afternoon. 15 Q: -- is Jackie Esmonde. I'll be asking 16 you some questions on behalf of a group of Stoney Point 17 people under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 18 Now, this morning Mr. Worme took you 19 through your notes from August and September as they 20 relate to Ipperwash? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And in which you describe a number of 23 incidents involving people from the Base. And you'd 24 agree with me that in describing several of the incidents 25 in August of 1995 you referred to the people from the
1801 Base as "Indians". 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And I take it you -- you use that 4 word "Indians" to describe the race of the individuals 5 that you're describing in your notebook? 6 A: The First Nations people, yes. 7 Q: We were also taken to a ERT report 8 that you had prepared in August in which you used the 9 word, "war cries". 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you told us that what you meant 12 by that was that you used to hear a loud yell or loud 13 yells coming from the Base side quite regularly? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And is there anything else you can 16 add to that description of the yelling that you heard 17 from the Base side? 18 A: Just a very loud yell. 19 Q: Yelling a word or -- 20 A: Screams -- no, just a -- it's not a 21 word. It's not to anybody, just a loud, loud yell. 22 Q: And in your description that -- your 23 notes of the major incident on the evening of September 24 6th, you describe hearing war yelps. Do you recall that? 25 A: That's correct.
1811 Q: And you told us that you meant by 2 that loud screams and yells? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were they similar to the -- the 5 yells that you were hearing from the base in August of 6 1995? 7 A: Yes, similar. 8 Q: So it's fair -- it's fair to say that 9 you were using the word 'war cries' or 'war yelps' to 10 describe yelling by the First Nations people? 11 A: Yeah, yes. 12 Q: And have you ever used that 13 description, a 'war cry', a 'war yelp' to describe 14 shouting by any other group of people apart from Indians? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Mr. Worme took you to several 17 transcripts of telephone calls that you had on the -- 18 September 5th during the day. 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: At Tab 12, you don't necessarily need 21 to turn this up, but there's a transcript of a 22 conversation with Jim Gordon. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that -- that's Inspector Jim 25 Gordon?
1821 A: Yes. 2 Q: And is -- was inspect -- is this the 3 Inspector Gordon who was -- became Incident Commander 4 following the shooting of September 6th? 5 A: I believe he was involved after the 6 fact. 7 Q: Okay. And is that somebody that you 8 knew well? 9 A: I knew him as an inspector out of my 10 District Headquarters. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: You were also taken to a transcript 15 of a conversation with Bob Briggar and I believe that was 16 not at a tab, that was a loose document. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: This has been marked as P-1435 and 21 Bob Briggar was in charge of the OPP's marine unit? 22 A: No, he was a -- he's was a -- he's a 23 sergeant shift supervisor and part of his 24 responsibilities was probably the Marine -- 25 Q: I see.
1831 A: -- Unit. 2 Q: Okay. And is that somebody that you 3 knew well? 4 A: I knew him -- a working relationship, 5 yes. 6 Q: Okay. You've known him for a number 7 of years, prior to this conversation? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I would have known of Bob for, yeah, 12 probably for a couple of years. 13 Q: Okay. And at page 5 you were taken 14 to the statement where you say: 15 "So that they can give the Indians more 16 stuff, like, you know, all the stuff we 17 keep giving them doesn't come cheap; 18 somebody's got to pay for it." 19 And would you agree with me that that -- 20 that statement is intended as a criticism of First 21 Nations people who you perceive as getting handouts? 22 A: No. I will say that's a very 23 inappropriate statement for -- for someone to make. 24 Q: Okay. So my description of it, you - 25 - you don't agree that that's an accurate description of
1841 what you've said here? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And can you assist me any further in 4 what you meant by these words? 5 A: Going back eleven (11) years, not -- 6 I don't know what I meant by them then. They're 7 inappropriate. 8 Q: You'd agree with me it is intended as 9 a criticism? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Not of the First Nations people, no. 14 Q: Okay. It's a criticism of 15 government? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I'll just read here. What page was 20 that on? 5? 21 Q: Yes, it's page 5, the second entry in 22 the transcript. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1851 A: I guess I based that on my -- the 2 overtime being taxed like it was, so it was -- it was an 3 inappropriate statement as -- is really the best I can -- 4 I can do for you. 5 Q: Okay, but there's a concern that 6 Indians are being given stuff and that this is expensive? 7 A: That's what I said in there, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And you make similar comments 9 in the telephone call that's at Tab 14? 10 The -- with the OPP dispatch identified as 11 'L'? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it -- was 'L' somebody that you 14 knew well? 15 A: No, I don't -- 16 Q: Did you know that person -- 17 A: -- so. 18 Q: -- at all? 19 A: Well, I would have known her as a 20 dispatcher. 21 Q: But you ma -- you felt comfortable 22 making comments of this nature to someone that you did 23 not know very well? 24 A: I made that comment, yes. 25 Q: Now, I -- I understand that you've
1861 apologized for making these comments. Would you agree 2 with me, though, they're a reflection of your -- your 3 opinions and your viewpoints on that date? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. So you were making these 6 comments on these telephone calls and you didn't mean 7 what you were saying? 8 A: Well, I -- I don't recall those 9 comments. I read them here. I made those comments. I 10 don't know what I was thinking when I made those 11 comments -- 12 Q: I see. 13 A: -- other then being inappropriate. 14 Q: I take it you -- they're not a 15 description of your opinions or viewpoints today? 16 A: No, they are not. 17 Q: And that's why they're so shocking to 18 you? 19 A: I'm surprised by them, yes. 20 Q: Now, you were in the Command Post 21 when you were taking these phone calls? 22 A: Yes, I was. 23 Q: And Inspector Carson would also have 24 been in the Command Post during the daytime? 25 A: He would have been in and out of the
1871 Command Post I'm sure. 2 Q: In the -- I'm sure you can't tell us 3 for certain whether he was standing beside you when you 4 made these phone calls, but was this way of speaking 5 about First Nations people typical of the language that 6 you heard in the Command Post? 7 A: No, it wasn't. 8 Q: So you just saved it for telephone 9 calls? 10 A: It wasn't typical of the conversation 11 or the views of the OPP in the Command Post. 12 Q: Now, moving ahead to the callout of 13 the CMU on the evening of September 6th, now you told us 14 that you understood that one of the reasons that the 15 Crowd Management Unit was being deployed was as a result 16 of a car being attacked. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you -- you testified this morning 19 that your information was that a large group had attacked 20 a car. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Were you not aware at the time -- 23 I'll pinpoint the time, the time when you're about to 24 march down the road with the rest of the unit. 25 Were you not aware at that time that, in
1881 fact, one (1) individual had been involved in the attack 2 on the car? 3 A: No, I don't believe I was, no. 4 Q: Well, can I ask you to turn to pa -- 5 Tab 24. This has been marked as P-1440, it's the 6 transcript of your testimony in the Cecil Bernard trial. 7 If you can turn to page 199. 8 Have that page? 9 A: Yes, I am. 10 Q: And you'll see just the second half 11 of that page, you'll see there's -- well there's a 12 question: 13 "And I'd be interested now in the 14 information or the orders you got from 15 Sergeant Korosec as opposed to what you 16 might have been given later. 17 What specifically were you instructed 18 by Sergeant Korosec about the mission?" 19 And your answer was: 20 "Well, the information was that a 21 civilian vehicle, one of the protesters 22 came out and stopped a civilian vehicle 23 and attacked it. 24 And from previous experience of just 25 sending a few cruisers down when they
1891 had problems down there, they were 2 sending a Crowd Management Unit." 3 So you see that you refer to one (1) 4 protester coming out. 5 A: Yes, I do. Yeah. 6 Q: So -- so does that refresh your 7 memory that the information that you had -- would have 8 had when the CMU was beginning its march down the road, 9 was that one (1) protester had been involved in the 10 attack on the vehicle? 11 A: From my -- I don't know when -- like 12 I say one (1) protester here I don't know if I received 13 that information after. 14 I recall that the car was attacked. I 15 don't -- I don't recall somebody saying, No, it was only 16 one (1) protester, prior to marching down the road. I 17 don't know when I received that information, if I 18 received that information. 19 Q: Well, you'd agree with me your 20 testimony her suggests that you were -- the information 21 that you had was that one (1) protester came out. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you're not in a position to -- 24 today to say that that is wrong? 25 A: No. I -- I can't say when I found
1901 out that only one (1) protester came out and attacked. 2 Q: You know that now? 3 A: From my testimony I -- from my 4 testimony in this trial I -- I see that. But -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 6 that was in July of '96, right? 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yes, thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that was after the 10 fact. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 13 Q: Yes, you were testifying July 1996 14 but the question was specifically about your knowledge on 15 September 6th, 1995. 16 A: That's -- that's right. 17 Q: Do I take it from what you've -- 18 you've just said that you're not sure today whether it 19 was one (1) individual or more than one (1) individual 20 that was involved in the attack on the vehicle? 21 A: I must have got that information that 22 it was one (1) -- one (1) person but I don't know when I 23 received it. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you described this 25 morning that there was some confusion on your part about
1911 whether the CMU would be going into the Park or not? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And that that was clarified by 4 Sergeant Korosec but can you assist me a little further 5 in -- as to what was it that led to the confusion, that 6 you had had a debrief -- sorry, you'd had a briefing from 7 Staff Sergeant Lacroix at the Forest Detachment? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And was it at that time that you 10 became -- that you were under the impression that the 11 CMU would be going into the Park? 12 A: I don't know where it was. I 13 remember Willy Smith who was on my team came to me 14 because he was concerned which led me to question whether 15 I -- I never understood to go -- that we were going into 16 the Park at all. 17 When Willy came to me I -- I started 18 second-guessing it too, so, I went to Stan Korosec to 19 confirm that we were not going into the Park. 20 Q: Okay. And where was it that Willy 21 Smith came to you? Were you at the -- 22 A: I -- 23 Q: -- Forest Detachment or at the TOC or 24 en route? 25 A: I don't know.
1921 Q: You don't remember? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you remember where you had the 4 conversation with Sergeant Korosec? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: And did Off -- it was Officer Smith, 7 did he tell you what words it was that had led him to the 8 impression that the CMU would be going into the Park? 9 A: No. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, you told us as well that you 14 understood that the TRU team would be supporting the CMU 15 by putting observation teams out? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And as well as to cover the CMU. 18 Were you aware, just prior to the CMU leaving the TOC to 19 go down the road, were you aware that the TRU observation 20 teams were not in position? 21 A: I was aware that they were having 22 difficulty getting into position. 23 Q: I see. And were -- were you -- were 24 you of the understanding that one (1) of the goals of 25 sending the CMU down the road was that it would serve as
1931 a distraction that would all the TRU observation teams to 2 get into a position where they could make the 3 observations that were desired? 4 A: My under -- the TRU was there to 5 support the CMU and they were having difficulty getting 6 into position and our mission was to go down the road and 7 clear that parking lot and it would have been nice to 8 have that forward observing -- forward observing unit. 9 So yes, I remember moving out onto the 10 roadway in hopes that by us moving that the -- the people 11 preventing the forward observer team from getting into 12 position would -- would move back into the Park and they 13 would be allowed to get into the position. 14 Q: And you were aware at that time of 15 reports from the evening before of automatic gunfire 16 being heard? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you tell me, the reports that 19 you -- you heard, where did you understand the automatic 20 gunfire to have been coming from? 21 A: I believe the report was from the 22 Base. 23 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say based on 24 what you've told us earlier that when you left the TOC 25 site you understood that the CMU's mission was to march
1941 to the sandy parking lot to clear the sandy parking lot? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And I take it -- would it be fair to 4 say that it was your hope that by marching the officers 5 down the road the people -- if there were any people in 6 the sandy parking lot they would simply return to the 7 Park side of the fence? 8 A: That would be my hope. 9 Q: And if there were Stoney Point people 10 who remained in the sandy parking lot and refused to 11 leave that they would be arrested; that was the plan, 12 right? 13 A: That -- that would be the Incident 14 Commander's call or Staff Sergeant Lacroix's call, what 15 we'd do once we got down there. 16 Q: Okay. So you didn't -- were you not 17 aware that there was a plan to arrest any individuals who 18 refused to leave the sandy parking lot? 19 A: Well, our -- our mission was to go 20 clear it. 21 Q: That's right by -- 22 A: So I -- by using the CMU to go down 23 there. So I don't know, you know, it all depended on 24 what -- what we found when we got down there, what was 25 going to happen.
1951 Q: And would it be fair to say that 2 based on the -- at least two (2) briefings that you had, 3 that there was no discussion during the course of those 4 briefings that you were a part of, that if the people -- 5 if the Stoney Pointers were in the sandy parking lot and 6 were not engaged in any kind of threatening behaviour, 7 that they would just be left alone? 8 A: I don't remember that. 9 Q: You don't remember anything like 10 that? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And there was no discussion of any 13 plan to -- if -- if, once you got down to the corner, and 14 cleared the sandy parking lot, if you were successful in 15 clearing the sandy parking lot, there was no discussion 16 of setting up a checkpoint at that location to keep an 17 eye on the sandy parking lot overnight? 18 A: I don't recall that, no. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, you've told us about some of the 23 difficulty in hearing that you would have had as a result 24 of the helmet that was part of the CMU uniform? 25 A: Yes.
1961 Q: And can you tell me a little bit more 2 about that? It's -- how did it affect your hearing? 3 A: Well, you could still hear. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: You could still tell -- you could 6 hear the yelling and screaming. The impact it had on me 7 is when the -- I'm used to a gunshot being very loud; it 8 muffled that gunshot. 9 Q: Okay. So it had the effect of 10 muffling sounds? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you had a radio. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: You could hear radio communications? 15 A: Yeah, there's a -- 16 Q: There was an any ear piece in your 17 ear? A: -- speakers in -- in the helmet. 18 Q: Okay. So was it in your ear or in 19 the helmet? 20 A: It's in the helmet. 21 Q: Okay. And I understand that there 22 was a process; if the leader of the CMU wished to give an 23 order to the entire group, he would give that order over 24 the radio and that would then be echoed? 25 Is that right?
1971 A: At that time, I believe everybody had 2 communications in their -- in their helmets. 3 Q: I see. 4 A: There's been so many changes over the 5 years, it's hard to remember exactly what -- what we had 6 then. 7 Q: Okay. Well, the radio then was an 8 important vehicle of communication for the team leader -- 9 A: Yes, my radio was -- 10 Q: -- to maintain -- 11 A: -- hooked in, I can tell you that. 12 Q: That's right. 13 A: So I was hearing the calls over the 14 air. 15 Q: And you would expect, then, that if 16 any orders were being given to the entire unit, they 17 would be made over the radio? 18 A: I don't recall if -- if everybody had 19 radio communications in their helmets. I would think 20 they did. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: If they didn't, then it would -- the 23 -- the orders would be repeated to them. 24 Q: Now the helmets, did they also impair 25 your ability to see?
1981 A: No. They had shields on them. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: And with the spotlights and lights on 4 it there's a lot of reflection, but you could still see. 5 Q: Okay. But it did impair your vision 6 to a certain extent? 7 A: It wouldn't be like me talking to you 8 now. 9 Q: Right. And there was also sand being 10 kicked up once you got down to the sandy parking lot, 11 kicking up dust? 12 A: With the movement in there, there 13 would be. I don't recall that. 14 Q: OKay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, you've -- you've told us and you 19 told Ms. Tuck-Jackson as well, that when you arrived, all 20 the First Nations people who were in the sandy parking 21 lot moved to the other side of the fence. 22 So when the CMU arrived at the sandy 23 parking lot there was no one in the sandy parking lot, 24 apart from OPP officers, correct? 25 A: When we moved into the --
1991 Q: Right. 2 A: -- parking lot, that's correct. 3 Q: And -- and you moved right into the 4 sandy parking lot? 5 A: I believe so. 6 Q: And I've placed before you the 7 transcript of the radio communications on the -- the TAC 8 channel, which has been marked as P-438. 9 And, Mr. Commissioner, I also provided a 10 copy for you on your table, though I don't see it any 11 more. I did put it -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I must 13 have done something with it. 14 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. There's also 15 a copy, I'm told, on the inside jacket of your binder. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I've put 17 it somewhere. I've got it. I've got it. 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 21 Q: If you could turn to page 6 of that 22 transcript. You've seen this transcript before? 23 A: I -- just as a result of coming here, 24 yes. 25 Q: Okay. But before today?
2001 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And you understand this is a 3 transcript of the -- the -- all the radio communications 4 that were made over the TAC channel on the 6th -- 6th of 5 September between 10:27 p.m. and 11:10 p.m.? 6 Now on page 6, near the bottom, the fourth 7 entry from the bottom, you see it says: 8 "LACROIX: They're on the, uh, 9 Provincial -- Provincial, uh, 10 property." 11 And you likely would have heard that 12 communication over the radio; is that fair? 13 A: If this was said over the radio, 14 yeah, I -- I should have heard it. 15 Q: Okay. And you would have taken that 16 to be describing the fact that the First Nations people 17 were on the Park side of the fence? 18 A: Well, I don't recall it. 19 Q: Okay. When you read that today, is 20 that how you take it? 21 A: I -- I really don't know how to take 22 that. 23 "They're on the, uh, Provincial -- 24 Provincial, uh, property." 25 I -- I don't know what he meant by that.
2011 Q: I see. Okay. And you'll see the 2 next entry is from Sergeant Skinner: 3 "10-4. Take up a defensive position." 4 Do you recall hearing that? 5 A: I don't recall that, no. 6 Q: And then there's an order from Staff 7 Sergeant Lacroix: 8 "Contact squad back up slowly." 9 And you've described -- you've described a 10 movement such as that, where the CMU moved into the sandy 11 parking lot and then moved back? 12 A: I did describe that, yes. 13 Q: And this is consistent with what 14 you've described; you'd agree? 15 A: I -- I don't know if that's -- 16 Q: You don't know if that's the same -- 17 A: -- what he was referring to at that 18 time, no. 19 Q: Okay. I'm interested in the next 20 entry, which is under Current Time 10:54 p.m. It says: 21 "LACROIX: Shield chatter." 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: And you were asked about shield 24 chatter this morning. And shield chatter, that's -- 25 that's a movement where the baton is rapped against the
2021 shield, right? 2 A: That's correct, yes. 3 Q: And that's -- that's a technique 4 that's used by the CMU as a -- a way of intimidating a 5 group of people; is that fair? 6 A: Well, it's -- I would -- I would 7 describe it as a way of announcing our presence. 8 Q: Okay. Well, you're -- it would be 9 fair to say, would it not, from the transcript that 10 you have, that your presence was already well known by 11 the time the shield chatter order went out over the radio 12 transmission? 13 A: I don't really recall when that 14 shield chatter was done, I thought it was before we went 15 to the parking lot. But if according to this we -- we 16 were already in the parking lot -- so I -- I don't know 17 when we did the shield chatter. 18 Q: Okay. Can you recall when you -- 19 based on what you can remember, let's put aside the 20 transcript, you -- you do recall doing shield chatter. 21 In your mind, when you look back to it, 22 can you recall whether the -- it would be fair to say 23 that the First Nations people were on the out -- the Park 24 side of the fence at the time the shield chatter 25 technique was used?
2031 A: I can't tell you that? 2 Q: You can't tell me that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Now I'd like to move ahead to 5 Cecil Bernard George and his arrest that evening. 6 Now you described -- there were -- there 7 were at least two (2) punchouts that occurred that 8 evening -- 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: -- as part of the CMU? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. You were only part of one 13 (1); is that right? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: That I can recall. 17 Q: That you can recall. So let's go to 18 that -- that punchout that you can recall. The punchout 19 order was given, and you've told us that there was person 20 who you assumed was the spokesperson because he was 21 vocalizing more than anyone else. 22 And as you were moving forward you saw 23 that individual who you thought was the spokesperson? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And what could you see of that
2041 person? 2 A: When we were standing off -- when my 3 squad was standing off the road, I can't speak for the 4 other squads, he was in the parking lot doing a lot 5 talking and he drew a line in the sand. 6 Q: Right. I understand the movements 7 that you've described -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- and I'm more interested in 10 physically what he looked like. Could you see him? 11 A: Oh, I don't know. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: No, I -- I couldn't describe him. 14 Q: Did he appear injured to you, from 15 what you could see of him? 16 A: Prior to moving? 17 Q: Prior to the punchout? 18 A: I -- I can't say that. 19 Q: And you told us that one (1) of the 20 tactics of the CMU was to -- to take -- sorry. One (1) 21 of the tactics of the CMU is to take the troublemakers or 22 people who are perceived to be leaders -- 23 A: That are causing the problem? 24 Q: -- as a way of diffusing a situation? 25 A: Yes.
2051 Q: And your mission at the time of the 2 punchout, as you understood it, was to either arrest the 3 people who were remaining in the sandy parking lot or 4 push them back over to the other side of the fence. 5 A: That -- that's correct. 6 Q: And you observed this individual who 7 you thought was the spokesperson turned to run back to 8 the Park? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And you had the impression, from what 11 you saw, that this person realized that he was too far 12 out to make it back into the Park, so he turned around 13 and took up a defensive stance? 14 A: That -- that again was an assumption 15 I made. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: Whether -- I don't know what he was 18 thinking. 19 Q: No obviously you don't know what was 20 in his mind, but from what you saw, it appeared to you 21 that he made that judgment call -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- that he couldn't make it back into 24 the Park so he turned around and took up a defensive 25 stance.
2061 A: That was only my impression. Yes. 2 Q: Right. And as your team was moving 3 forward, this individual was bowled over by the contact 4 squad? 5 A: That's right. When he swung at the - 6 - the members. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: They would've went right by and 9 knocked him down. 10 Q: You ran past? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And -- and then how soon after that 13 did you look back? It was a matter of seconds? 14 A: No. I -- I went and had -- engaged 15 another male that came out. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: And then I would have got my squad 18 back together. 19 Q: Okay. So you had time to run 20 forward, engage the individual, as you've described, and 21 get your squad together. And can you -- 22 A: Yeah. My whole squad had run forward 23 with me. 24 Q: Okay. And can you assist us at all 25 in how long that took?
2071 A: No. 2 Q: Minutes? 3 A: I really don't know how long it was. 4 Q: You'd agree that everything seemed to 5 happen very quickly? 6 A: Everything did go quickly, yes. 7 Q: Okay. So but when you turned around 8 and you saw a person on the ground, that person was in 9 roughly the location where you had seen the individual 10 bowled over by the contact squad? 11 A: I didn't turn around to see a person 12 on the ground. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I saw the person on the ground as I 15 was running by. 16 Q: Oh. I think I misunderstood you 17 then. So -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- there's a punchout, you see the 20 person get bowled over, and as you're running by, you see 21 a person on the ground? 22 A: On the ground kicking, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And that's all you saw of an 24 individual on the ground, was only that moment? 25 A: Yes.
2081 Q: But you're not sure that the person 2 that you saw being bowled over and the person on the 3 ground are the same person? 4 A: I assumed it was the same person. 5 There was -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: -- other people there. 8 Q: Right. It hap -- it was a very quick 9 moment? 10 A: There was so many people there and we 11 were pretty tight. 12 Q: Okay. And -- and the person you saw 13 on the ground was in roughly the same location where you 14 had seen an individual bowled over? 15 A: There was a few people there. 16 Q: Right. But -- 17 A: And I -- I made that assumption that 18 it -- and I'm not saying it's not that person. I -- I 19 assumed it was that person. 20 Q: Right. I'm just trying to -- 21 A: But I can't say today that's the same 22 person. 23 Q: Fair enough. I'm just trying to 24 understand. The -- the location where you saw an 25 individual bowled over is the same location where you saw
2091 somebody laying on the ground? 2 A: Pretty well, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And you saw several officers 4 around him. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And some were on top of him? 7 A: Not at -- they were trying to get 8 control of him. 9 Q: You're quite certain that none were 10 on top of him? 11 A: I didn't see anybody on top of him, 12 no. 13 Q: Do you still have Tab 24 open in 14 front of you? It's the -- P-1440, the -- your testimony 15 in the R versus Cecil Bernard George Trial. 16 A: What page? 17 Q: If you could turn to page 218. Do 18 you have that page? 19 A: I'm getting there. 20 Q: Okay. Now the very last question at 21 the bottom, the question to you is: 22 "And then what you saw -- I'm going to 23 suggest to you is you saw him being 24 arrested by the contact squad, right?" 25 And then at page 219, your answer:
2101 "I don't know who was arresting. I saw 2 him wrestling around on the ground with 3 a couple officers on top of him." 4 And that -- that's an accurate recording 5 of your testimony at that trial, correct? 6 A: That's -- that's a recording of my -- 7 accurate recording of my testimony, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And does that refresh your 9 memory, that what you saw was a couple officers on top of 10 him? 11 A: I don't think I articulated myself 12 well enough in that trial. 13 Q: I see. 14 A: Because my memory is officers right 15 around him. And to say they were wrestling on the ground 16 with him, no, I -- I didn't see that. I just didn't 17 articulate that well enough in the trial. 18 Q: Okay. So you're saying now that you 19 didn't see officers wrestling around with him? 20 A: I saw officers around him trying to 21 get control of him. How they were doing that, I don't 22 know, because it was -- it was very quick. 23 Q: Okay. Could you turn to page 220 of 24 the transcript? 25
2111 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Do you have that page? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And roughly half way down there's -- 6 it's about line 17. You're asked: 7 "Q: And so that would have been 8 obvious to you that they had shields 9 and batons?" 10 Do you see that question? Are you on page 11 220? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Okay. And then your answer: 14 "No, no. On a full run it wouldn't be 15 obvious. It happened so quick. You 16 made contact. They're rolling around 17 with the guy on the ground." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So there you say -- 20 A: Again -- 21 Q: Suggesting -- 22 A: Again -- 23 Q: -- again that there was a grappling-- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- a wrestling, officers on top of
2121 Cecil Bernard George? 2 A: Yeah. And I -- I just don't think I 3 articulated what I saw well enough there. I was -- 4 probably went further than I should have in trying to 5 describe what I saw. 6 Q: So you're saying that the evidence 7 that you gave under Oath in this trial was incorrect? 8 A: I'm saying I may have made a mistake 9 in how I described. 10 Q: How many -- 11 A: It wasn't intentionally incorrect. 12 Q: How many officers did you see around 13 him? 14 A: I don't know. 15 Q: And it appeared to you that they were 16 attempting to arrest him? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what were then -- what motions 19 were they making that led you to that belief -- 20 A: What -- what really stands out in my 21 mind was a individual on his back, kicking. And I think 22 they're trying to get control of his legs or trying to -- 23 just trying to -- trying to control him. 24 Q: They're trying to get control of his 25 legs?
2131 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And -- and how were they doing 3 that? 4 A: They were around him. Like, I didn't 5 really pay attention to what the officers were doing. I 6 was -- I saw the guy on the ground kicking. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: And I can't really describe what the 9 officers were doing, other than trying to get control of 10 him. That would be my best description. 11 Q: Can you turn to page 195 of the 12 transcript. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Sorry, it's start at page 194, 17 actually. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Do you have it? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. The last question on page 194. 24 "Did you observe his being handled to 25 what extent?"
2141 Your answer: 2 "They were restraining him no more than 3 what an individual that was kicking and 4 fighting. The officer was in there 5 trying to restrain him, trying to 6 protect themselves from being hit, so a 7 wrestling match more than anything 8 else. That's the best way to describe 9 it." 10 So you'd agree with me that you testified 11 that what you observed was like a wrestling match more 12 than anything -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- else? 15 A: Yes, I did testify that. 16 Q: Okay. And would you agree with that 17 description today? 18 A: No, not really. It was -- I didn't 19 see any officers lying on top of him. I didn't see any 20 officers rolling around on the ground with him. 21 But like I say, that -- that may not have 22 been the best way to describe that incident, that I used 23 to describe it at that time. 24 Q: Okay. So I've taken you to a number 25 of places in this transcript in which you describe
2151 something like a wrestling match, officers on top of 2 Cecil Bernard George. And I understand that you resolve 3 from that testimony today? 4 A: Well, I just -- I don't think it was 5 the best description at the time. It was a description, 6 but it wasn't the best description. 7 Q: You were trying your best to be 8 accurate and -- 9 A: I was. 10 Q: -- describing what you saw? 11 A: I was. 12 Q: And yet on all of these occasions you 13 described something that you didn't see? 14 A: Well, the officers wrestling around 15 with him, they were trying to get hands on with him, so 16 you could describe that as wrestling around with him. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: So you said when you saw Cecil 21 Bernard George he was on his back. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You'd agree with me that it -- it's 24 hard to kick effectively when you're laying on the 25 ground, on your back.
2161 A: No, it isn't. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: No, I wouldn't agree with that. 4 Q: You don't agree with that? 5 A: No. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Now, after the punchout, after you 10 had gathered together your -- your part of the unit, did 11 you take any steps to inquire into what had happened to 12 the person who was arrested? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And did you have any further 15 interaction -- did you have any interaction at all with 16 the person who was arrested that evening? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I've placed before you, and also 19 before Mr. Commissioner, a portion of a transcript that 20 should be on your table there. It's a portion of the 21 transcript of Wade Lacroix in R versus Nicholas Abraham 22 Cottrelle. 23 Do you have that portion of the -- of his 24 testimony? It's Inquiry Document 3000846? It's a two 25 (2) page document?
2171 A: Okay. P438? 2 Q: No. 3 A: Oh, okay, that's the wrong one. 4 Q: It should be right under that. Yes, 5 that's it. 6 This was the testimony, a portion of the 7 testimony of Wade Lacroix on March 25th, 1997. 8 And I just would like to take you to a 9 passage of his testimony to see if that assists in 10 refreshing your memory at all, or in confirming whether 11 what Mr. Lacroix was describing was correct or not. 12 And you'll see at the bottom of page 44 13 there's a -- there's a long answer. The question to Mr. 14 Lacroix was: 15 "Did you see what happened to that 16 downed Native?" 17 Do you see that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And then there's a -- a fairly 20 lengthy answer. And then if I could take you to the last 21 sentence at the bottom there, he says: 22 "I can't be sure of who it was that 23 came up. I believed it was Sergeant 24 Huntley but it might have been George 25 Hebblethwaite because it's his job also
2181 to leave my side and go into formation 2 to check things out." 3 A: Just -- where -- where exactly are 4 you here? 5 Q: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. I was starting 6 with the last sentence on the bottom of page 44. 7 A: Okay. Sorry. 8 Q: Are you with me? 9 A: Yeah. Okay. 10 "So I can't be sure of who it was that 11 came up." 12 Going over to page 45. 13 "I believed it was Sergeant Huntley, 14 but it might have been George 15 Hebblethwaite because it's his job also 16 to leave my side and go into formation 17 to check things out. Come back to me 18 and told me that once -- that one (1) 19 was in custody. And I believe he 20 showed me a portable radio that he had 21 in his possession which is important to 22 us because we actually, in those 23 situations, try to pick leaders. We 24 try to arrest a leader because when 25 they take away the leader usually crowd
2191 dynamics are such that there's usually 2 only one (1) or two (2) people that are 3 keeping the whole thing going, [et 4 cetera]." 5 So the rest is not relevant to what I want 6 to ask you about. But can you -- Mr. Lacroix was under 7 the impression that it was you that came up to him and 8 gave him this update on the person who had been arrested 9 and -- and was he correct or incorrect? 10 A: I don't believe that was me. I don't 11 remember that at all. 12 Q: Do you remember receiving information 13 of that nature from anyone, that somebody had been 14 arrested with a portable radio and was believed to be a 15 leader? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Okay. Moving ahead then to when the 22 car was coming out of the Park. 23 A: Yes? 24 Q: I believe you -- you didn't see the 25 car until it was actually on the roadway; is that right?
2201 A: That's correct, as it was coming down 2 the roadway. 3 Q: Right. And at one (1) point you were 4 five (5) feet away from the front of the car? 5 A: After it drove into the officers? 6 Q: Right. And can you help me, were you 7 dead in the centre of the hood of the car, to the right, 8 to the left? 9 A: If it had of kept coming it would 10 have been on top of me. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: So I -- I don't remember where I was, 13 if I was on the right, left, centre. It was -- 14 Q: I see. 15 A: -- aimed towards me. 16 Q: And you had -- you had your firearm 17 out at this point? 18 A: At that point, yes. 19 Q: Right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And you were aiming at the driver's 22 front window? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So you were looking at the -- where 25 the driver would be sitting?
2211 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: Okay. And could you see anybody in 3 the vehicle? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And -- and why not? 6 A: The lights were on me. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Headlights were on me. 9 Q: So the lights made it hard for you to 10 see? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And could you see if there was any 13 other occupant in the vehicle? Or any occupants at all 14 in the vehicle? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. And would you have been able 17 to see the driver's side -- the driver's side window from 18 your position? 19 A: I don't think so. 20 Q: You don't think so. Okay. Did you 21 observe any of the other officers in the CMU firing their 22 weapons that evening? 23 A: When the bus went by, no. And I 24 believe the car was fired upon, but I -- I really don't 25 recall seeing muzzle flashes or -- as I'm sitting here
2221 today. 2 Q: Okay. So you -- I understand you saw 3 no muzzle flashes, you told us that this morning, but you 4 also didn't see any of the other officers in the CMU 5 firing their weapons? 6 A: I don't -- I don't recall that. 7 Q: Okay. And it's -- it's fair to say 8 that the situation was fairly chaotic at this point, when 9 the bus and the car came out? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And officers were simply scattered 12 across the roadway? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And it was hard for you to see? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And it was hard for you to hear? 17 A: The -- it was muffled. 18 Q: And you heard these gunshots and 19 perceived that there were shots flying around, all around 20 you? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: You couldn't tell where the shots 23 were coming from? 24 A: No, I couldn't. 25 Q: Did -- you believed -- did you
2231 believe that you were being fired upon by the First 2 Nations people? 3 A: I don't know who was shooting. 4 Q: You don't know today. 5 A: I don't know and I didn't know then 6 and I didn't know -- 7 Q: And you didn't know then. 8 A: I don't know today. 9 Q: So jumping ahead in time again, to 10 after this incident is over and you've gone back to the 11 hotel? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you told us about how you 14 gathered with other people -- you gathered at the cottage 15 in George Hebblethwaite's room at -- 16 A: I don't -- 17 Q: -- the hotel. 18 A: I don't know if it was George 19 Hebblethwaite's room. It was the cottage, I think I put 20 it down. 21 Q: Okay. Can I ask you to turn up your 22 notes. I believe they're at Tab 17. Okay, I'm looking 23 at page 2. Do you have that in front of you? This has 24 been marked as P-1437. It's your notes from September -- 25 September 7th, 1995.
2241 A: Okay. Yes. 2 Q: And it's an entry at 10:10. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: It says: 5 "Met at George's room. Entire team." 6 Is that George Hebblethwaite's room then? 7 A: Okay. Just a second. I'm -- I'm not 8 at the right spot. 9 Q: Oh. Okay. I'm looking at page 2. 10 A: Okay. Which tab? It's Tab 17? 11 Q: It's Tab 17. 12 A: And do you have the front number? 13 Q: Right. The first page looks like 14 it's from your black binder. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And then the second page in that tab 17 has a pa -- has a number 2 in the bottom right hand 18 corner. 19 A: Oh, okay. Right. Right. Okay, I 20 found it. 21 Q: Okay. It's an entry at 10:10, it 22 says: 23 "Met -- meet at George's room. Entire 24 team." 25 A: That's correct.
2251 Q: And was that George Hebblethwaite's 2 room? 3 A: That would be George Hebblethwaite, 4 yes. 5 Q: Okay. And when you say "entire 6 team," do you mean the entire District 6 ERT? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Okay. So from what you can recall, 9 the entire Number 6 District ERT was in the hotel room? 10 A: I -- 11 Q: Or the cottage. 12 A: I don't know if everybody was in 13 there. I've got the entire team. 14 Q: And anyone else apart from Number 6 15 District ERT members? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Now I understand that you don't 18 remember the specifics, you told us about the discussion 19 that took place but -- 20 A: Well this -- this isn't the same 21 meeting. 22 Q: Oh. This is a different meeting -- 23 A: Yes. This -- this is a meeting with 24 Don Carson, our trauma counsellor. 25 Q: I see.
2261 A: The next -- on the morning of the 2 7th. 3 Q: Okay. Let me back up then. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: So you had -- you met with other 6 members of the Number 6 District ERT -- 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: -- in someone's hotel room on the 9 evening of September -- the early morning of September 10 7th? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: That's correct? 13 A: That's correct, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And it was, as far as you can 15 recall, all or most of the members of the Number 6 16 District ERT. 17 A: Yeah. And I don't -- I don't -- I 18 know Mark Cloes and Jim Christie weren't there because 19 they went to Sarnia Hospital. 20 Q: Okay. And how long did you meet 21 together? 22 A: I don't know how long it was. 23 Q: Was it more than half an hour? 24 A: I -- I really don't recall. 25 Q: Okay. And you told us that you --
2271 before this meeting you weren't really sure about what 2 had happened in the sandy parking lot? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And you were traumatized and others 5 were traumatized? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: That's fair? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you went over what had happened 12 so that everybody had a clear idea about what had 13 happened in the sandy parking lot? 14 A: No. I don't think we went over what 15 had happened. Like that -- that meeting, to be clear, 16 was to support each other. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: That's what it was. It wasn't a -- a 19 debrief, it wasn't what did you do, what did you do, it 20 was to support each other because we had just gone 21 through that. 22 Q: Okay. Now you had told us that you - 23 - at one point you had thought that -- that two (2) 24 people were arrested. 25 A: Hmm hmm.
2281 Q: And you later learned that it was 2 only one (1). 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And was it at this time that you 5 learned that it was only one (1) person that had been 6 arrested? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. When did you learn that? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: But you must have talked about what 11 you had seen and done? 12 A: I -- I don't remember the specifics 13 of talking about it. But it wasn't -- this -- this 14 meeting was not intended to -- to figure out what had 15 happened. 16 Q: Right. It -- 17 A: This meeting was a support. 18 Q: Right, it wasn't a formal meeting. 19 A: No. 20 Q: It wasn't a formal debrief? 21 A: No. 22 Q: It was an informal gathering of the 23 people on your team to talk about a traumatic event? 24 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 25 Q: To support each other?
2291 A: Yes. 2 Q: That's right. So you must have 3 talked at least in some way about what had happened in 4 the sandy parking lot? 5 A: I'm sure we did. 6 Q: Right. So then later, if I 7 understand you then, then there's another meeting in the 8 morning -- 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: -- at about 10:10. And that is with 11 Don Carson, the Trauma Support -- 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: -- Advisor; is that right? 14 A: Trauma support. 15 Q: Trauma support. And this is again a 16 gathering of all or most of the Number 6 District ERT 17 members? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And your -- the officer who had gone 20 to the hospital had returned by this point? 21 A: Yes, he would be. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And was he at this meeting, if you 25 recall?
2301 A: I don't recall. 2 Q: Okay. And according to your notes, 3 Don Carson advised the group about what his role was? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Okay. And -- and what he could 6 provide and then it says: 7 "I suggested the team members sit down 8 and complete notes for yesterday, 9 starting with today's meeting." 10 And then it says: 11 "The following notes are my 12 recollection of events -- well, my 13 events of the occurrence at Ipperwash 14 Provincial Park on 6th September, '95?" 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Have I read that correctly? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. So you completed your meet -- 19 your notes of what you saw and did on -- in the sandy 20 parking lot? 21 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 22 Q: In the presence of the other members 23 of the Number 6 District ERT team? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No. Where did you make your notes?
2311 A: I would have gone -- I was by myself 2 when I made my notes. I probably went back to my room. 3 Q: Okay. And during this meeting that 4 you had with Don Carson, he told -- he explained what his 5 role was and what was his role? 6 A: He's a trauma counsellor. 7 Q: Right. Okay. 8 A: So -- 9 Q: And was there any discussion at that 10 time about what had occurred the evening before? 11 A: I don't recall, but that wasn't the 12 purpose of that meeting. 13 Q: Now, prior to the meeting that you 14 had in the hotel room before this one, were you 15 instructed by any of your superior officers that you 16 shouldn't speak with one another about what had happened 17 before you made your notes, for example? 18 A: I don't recall that, no. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You told us also that there's some 23 problems with your notes and you made some corrections 24 during your testimony today? 25 A: That's correct.
2321 Q: Specifically with respect to the 2 timing of the car and the bus and the shots and so on? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is that fair? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how is that you came to make 7 these corrections? Did somebody tell you that what you 8 had written down was wrong? 9 A: No. It was probably after the fact, 10 got talking about it and then as I thought about it, I 11 realized these weren't accurate. 12 Q: Okay. So at the time you wrote them, 13 you thought that was an accurate description -- 14 A: That's -- 15 Q: -- of what you had seen and heard? 16 A: That's -- that's right. 17 Q: And then as you thought about it over 18 time, you realized that it was erroneous? 19 A: Yeah, I missed -- 20 Q: And when did you -- 21 A: I got -- I got the events confused 22 when I read my -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- notes. 25 Q: And when did you realize that you had
2331 gotten the events confused? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Can you -- how long -- can you give 4 me any assistance with how long after the fact this was? 5 A: In -- I believe in my statement that 6 night, over the next two (2) nights, my -- I made the 7 statement to the detective, I believe I still thought 8 they were in that order -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- of -- the car -- the bus coming 11 down and going back. So it's some time after that. I 12 don't know. 13 Q: Was it in 1995? 14 A: I really don't know. I don't know it 15 if was prior to a trial. I can't say when -- when I 16 realised -- 17 Q: And I understand -- 18 A: -- they were wrong. 19 Q: I understand that when an officer 20 realizes that they've made an error in their notes that 21 the process is that you take your notebook on the day 22 that you realise that you -- you made an error and you 23 make a notation at that time; is that fair? 24 A: I'm not familiar with that. 25 Q: You're not aware of any such policy?
2341 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And you never did so? 3 A: No, I didn't. 4 Q: Now, after Ken Deane was convicted in 5 April of 1997, you were interviewed by Ron Piers? 6 A: I was at some point in time, yes. 7 Q: Okay. It was June 25th of 1997? 8 A: I don't know. 9 Q: You have -- I've placed a complete 10 copy of the document, which is at Tab 32 of your book on 11 the table in front of you and I'd like to work from the 12 complete document if I could and there should be a copy 13 on the -- Mr. Commissioner's table. 14 A: Tab 32? 15 Q: There -- there's portions of it can 16 be found at Tab 32 but I've placed the entire document on 17 your table. 18 Now, you'll see at the -- this is Document 19 Number 2005302. It's identified as the statement of 20 Ronald E. Piers. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I've placed a complete copy of the 25 document on your table, sir, if you could work from that.
2351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I -- 2 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Got 3 it. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Do you have it, Mr. 8 Commissioner, I placed a copy on your table? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought I 10 had it but I don't know what I did with it. I didn't 11 know why it was here so I just put it in my pile of 12 stuff. I'll see if I can find it. Oh, magic, I've got 13 it. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 16 Q: Okay. And you'll see at page 7, 17 there -- there's a "7" at the top under June 25th, 1997, 18 it says: 19 "Interviewed Rob Huntley." 20 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 21 Q: And does that sound like that's in 22 and around the time that you would have been interviewed 23 by Ronald Piers? 24 A: I vaguely remember that interview. 25 Q: Okay. And how did that interview
2361 come about? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Were you asked by your superior 4 officer to meet with Ronald Piers? 5 A: I don't recall that. 6 Q: Were you participating in this 7 interview as part of your duties as member of the OPP? 8 A: Well, I was interviewed it says here 9 at Wiarton Detachment so I was probably working. 10 Q: Okay. So you were -- 11 A: I -- I really don't recall. 12 Q: -- your assumption is you were on- 13 duty at the time? 14 A: Only because it says: 15 "Interviewed Rob Huntley Wiarton 16 Detachment." 17 So I -- I don't know what this means. So 18 I was interviewed by him. 19 Q: Okay. You were -- were you aware 20 that there a number of -- of other officers that were 21 also being interviewed by Mr. Piers around this time? 22 A: I don't recall that. 23 Q: You were aware that Mr. Piers was a 24 former Deputy Commissioner of the OPP? 25 A: Yes.
2371 Q: And that he had been hired as part of 2 Kenneth Deane's defence team to assist in investigations 3 with respect to his sentencing and later appeal? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you were aware that -- of that at 6 the time that you were being interviewed? 7 A: I -- I probably was, yes. 8 Q: Okay. Now, at page 1 of the document 9 that I've placed in front of you it states: 10 "On Tuesday, May 6th, 1997, I met with 11 and was retained by Mr. Norm Peel, 12 counsel for Ken Deane, to assist in the 13 preparation for the Deane sentencing 14 hearing on May 27th, 1997, and the 15 subsequent appeal. I was asked to 16 investigate and complete the following: 17 1. A personal history of Deane through 18 documentation, fellow police officers 19 and citizens. 20 2. Information regarding actual 21 deployment by Deane on TRU team calls. 22 3. Information regarding actual 23 deployment by Deane on bomb squad 24 calls. 25 4. Dudley George incidents involving
2381 the police. 2 5. Shooting at Armed Forces helicopter 3 by Dudley George. 4 6. Evidence of muzzle flashes and 5 firearms being present on September 6 6th, 1995, and 7 7. Evidence of firearms prior to 8 September 6th, 1995 by Natives." 9 Now, does that -- does that assist you -- 10 did -- did Mr. Piers identify these as the issues that he 11 was investigating when he met with you in 1997? 12 A: I don't recall that. 13 Q: You don't recall that. Do you recall 14 anything about what he told you about the information 15 that he was looking for when he was interviewing you? 16 A: No. 17 Q: It appears from page 7 which is a 18 very brief overview of the information that he apparently 19 obtained from you that you advised him that you knew of 20 incidents involving firearms with Natives prior to 21 September 6th, 1995? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that would be the helicopter 24 incident? 25 A: Yes, that was where the helicopter --
2391 Q: Is that what you were referring to? 2 A: Well, I -- I don't know back then 3 what he's referring to here -- 4 Q: Okay 5 A: -- or what I told him but I -- I've 6 already said I -- I knew of incidents with firearms. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: So I don't know what I told Mr. 9 Piers. 10 Q: Would you agree with me though you've 11 had a chance to review this summary of what you told him? 12 Does this seem -- does this seem -- 13 A: This -- this summary, yes. 14 Q: -- like an accurate summary of what 15 you would have told him during that interview? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: No -- not -- I don't recall why he 20 would have -- he believed firearms were present and in 21 the hands of the Natives on September 6th. I don't 22 recall ever telling him that. 23 Q: Okay. And not only do not recall 24 ever telling him that, you don't believe this is an 25 accurate statement, correct?
2401 A: Well, I don't -- I don't recall that 2 because I don't recall seeing firearms in the hands of 3 any Natives. 4 Q: Well, it -- to be fair, it does say: 5 "He believed firearms were present and 6 in the hands of the Natives on 7 September 6th, 1995." 8 And your evidence today is that you don't 9 believe you would have made that statement to Mr. Piers? 10 A: I guess maybe that's what -- 11 referring to that is the statement further down involving 12 Mark Cloes. 13 Q: Sorry, when I asked you if this was 14 an accurate -- if you viewed this as an accurate summary 15 of the information you would have provided to Mr. Piers, 16 you identified the third bullet as -- 17 A: No. I -- I can't say -- 18 Q: -- something that you didn't believe 19 you would have told him. 20 A: I don't remember saying that in an 21 interview with -- with Mr. Piers. So if he wrote that -- 22 I -- I don't recall that. 23 Q: Okay. Sorry, could I have this 24 marked as the next exhibit. Not the excerpts at Tab 32 25 but the entire Document 20005302.
2411 THE REGISTRAR: P-1444, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1444: Document Number 2005302. 4 Statement of Ronald E. Piers, 5 May 06, 1997 to August 07, 6 1998. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 9 Q: Now you told us that you bought a T- 10 shirt and a mug. 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And who did you buy -- did you buy 13 the shirt and the mug from the same person? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Did you see the T-shirts on display 16 anywhere? 17 A: I don't recall that, no. 18 Q: Do you recall where you were when you 19 purchased one? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: Do you recall where you were when you 22 purchased a mug? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: Were you interviewed at the -- were 25 you aware that there was investigation into the creation
2421 and selling of the mugs and T-shirts? 2 A: I -- I believe I became aware of 3 that, yes. 4 Q: Okay. And was that while the 5 investigation was ongoing or after it had been completed? 6 A: I don't recall when it was. 7 Q: Were you ever interviewed as part of 8 that investigation? 9 A: I don't believe I was. 10 Q: Were you aware of whether there was, 11 kind of a broadcast to OPP members that an investigation 12 was ongoing and the investigator was seeking to interview 13 anybody who purchased a mug or T-shirt? 14 A: I wasn't aware of that. 15 Q: Yeah. There was no such -- 16 A: Not that I can remember, no. 17 Q: -- broadcast that you're aware of? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And you yourself felt no obligation 20 to come forward to advise your superior or anyone else 21 that you had purchased a mug and T-shirt? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Are you aware of whether Kenneth 24 Deane bought a T-shirt? 25 A: No. I wasn't aware of that.
2431 Q: You're not aware. Yeah, what about a 2 mug? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, 5 Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Ms. Esmonde. We'll take a break now. I think this would 8 be a good point to take an afternoon break. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 2:28 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 2:44 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Good afternoon, Mr. 18 Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 20 afternoon, Mr. Scullion. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 23 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Huntley. 24 A: Good afternoon. 25 Q: Just in terms of timing, my original
2441 estimate was thirty (30) to forty-five (45) minutes. 2 Your Commission counsel's tried to truncate me to fifteen 3 (15) minutes but I think I'll be in around thirty (30). 4 In any event, Sergeant Huntley. My name's 5 Kevin Scullion and I'm one of counsel for the Residents 6 of Aazhoodena. You may know them better as the Stoney 7 Point Group. 8 In your -- in Tab 1, in your CV, you have 9 listed a First Nations awareness seminar -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 11 Q: -- in 2005. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: When in 2005 did you take that 14 seminar? 15 A: I believe that was September. 16 Q: September? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you were asked questions earlier 19 about the mugs and a T-shirt and you'd indicated that you 20 had purchased both of those and had gotten rid of them 21 after the fact. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Did you get rid of them before or 24 after you attended this First Nations awareness seminar? 25 A: Well, that was -- that was years ago.
2451 So long before this. 2 Q: Long before the -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- seminar? Coming out of that First 5 Nations awareness seminar, you answered a question. I 6 think it was from Mr. Worme, that you found it to be very 7 helpful. Would you take that further and say it would 8 have been helpful to have had that type of training 9 before this incident in September of 1995? 10 A: It was excellent training. For 11 anybody who doesn't police a First Nations reserve, it 12 would be good training for them. 13 And yes, if I -- if I had it back in 1981, 14 it would be good, when I started in the OPP. 15 Q: Now, when was the first time you 16 heard the tapes that had certain comments on them that 17 had been -- you've had questions about both in-chief and 18 by Ms. Esmonde? 19 When was the first time you heard those 20 tapes? 21 A: I can't give you an exact date. It's 22 -- I don't know the exact -- when I heard them. 23 Q: Fairly recently, in preparation for 24 the Inquiry? 25 A: No. No, it was some time ago.
2461 Q: As in a couple of years -- 2 A: Probably a year. 3 Q: -- ago? 4 A: Could be a year, I don't know. 5 Q: So back in 2005? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: You really asked me a question. I 10 can't tell you exactly when but it's -- it's a year -- 11 I'm going to guess a year, a year to two (2) years ago. 12 Q: Okay, before the First Nations 13 awareness seminar? 14 A: Oh, yes, yes. 15 Q: All right. And when you heard those 16 tapes you immediately recognized and I think you've 17 testified, it was inappropriate. 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: Would you go so far as to agree that 20 it's offensive and degrading to First Nations people, 21 some of the comments on that tape? 22 A: I'm sure that they've -- some First 23 Nations people find that offensive. 24 Q: Right. Have you ever been the 25 subject of any disciplinary action in respect of the
2471 comments that are on those tapes? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now, I listened to your testimony in 4 regards to the activities in August and early September 5 of 1995. 6 And you used a number of terms; one of 7 them was peacekeeper and others were to try not to 8 escalate tensions. 9 Do you remember using those terms? 10 A: I don't remember using peacekeeper, 11 but... 12 Q: Keeping the peace? 13 A: Keeping the peace. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: That was an important approach, I 17 take it, for you in your policing activities in and 18 around Ipperwash Provincial Park in August and early 19 September of 1995? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And from your perspective 22 in taking that approach, it was a non-confrontational 23 approach? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. You attended the
2481 September 1 meeting in which the outline was provided for 2 Project Maple, correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you get the sense from that 5 meeting that this non-confrontational approach that you'd 6 been using or implementing up until then was changing if 7 an occupation of the Provincial Park occurred? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. When John Carson used the 10 words "in your face approach" during the September 1 11 meeting, you didn't get the impression that the approach 12 had changed somewhat? 13 A: I don't recall him making those -- 14 those comments. 15 Q: All right. You don't recall those 16 comments from the meeting at all? 17 A: No. No. 18 Q: All right. And I'm not limiting it 19 to simply "in your face" but that kind of confrontational 20 approach, you don't recall any discussion of that nature? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And no directions to your -- you 23 personally, and you as a squadron leader for the ERT, of 24 assuming that kind of approach? 25 A: No.
2491 Q: All right. You mentioned Project 2 Maple and the drafting of a plan for Projet Maple and 3 we've seen in this Inquiry a blueprint, so to speak, for 4 Project Maple, which is Exhibit P-424. 5 You may have seen it from discussions with 6 your Counsel, but I'm just showing it to you. Had you 7 seen this Project Maple plan back in September of 1995? 8 A: I don't recall seeing a finished 9 product. 10 Q: All right. So the first time you saw 11 the finished product is presumably in preparation for the 12 Inquiry? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Okay. So any directions that you had 15 in terms of your ERT squad and managing those people in 16 your ERT squad under your direction were from briefings 17 that you received along the way? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You mentioned in your examination-in- 20 chief that as part of the September 1 meeting you were to 21 get together with presumably Sergeant Korosec and the TRU 22 members and come up with a plan for containment. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Do you remember saying that? 25 A: That's correct.
2501 Q: Was the plan that you came up with 2 one of cohabitation? Was that how you were going to do 3 containment? 4 A: What -- what do you mean by 5 cohabitation? 6 Q: Had you ever heard that term before-- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- in regards to Project Maple? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. What was your plan at 11 least the one that you brought back to superiors on how 12 to ensure containment in the Project Maple situation? 13 A: I don't -- 14 Q: What was your understanding? 15 A: I don't remember the details of that 16 plan. I remember very little of it. 17 Q: We've heard testimony about the 18 incident that occurred on September 4th where people 19 moved into the Park and you've testified a little bit 20 about that in examination-in-chief. 21 Do you recall testifying about that? 22 A: A little bit, yes. 23 Q: All right. One (1) of the exhibits 24 on this Inquiry has referred to the use of the Number 1 25 District ERT team as assisting and controlling rebel
2511 Natives who were trying to illegally occupy the Park. 2 Would that be consistent with your 3 understanding of the role of ERT on the evening of 4 September 4th? 5 A: No, I don't know anything about that. 6 Q: No, but is it consistent with your 7 understanding of what ERT was to be doing that evening 8 under this Project Maple? 9 A: Project Maple was designed for a 10 peaceful takeover of the Park and I don't think we ever 11 implemented Project Maple. 12 Q: Right. It was designed to allow a 13 peaceful takeover of the Park and to manage the 14 occupation, right, manage containment of the occupation? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. In your mind it wasn't to try 17 to prevent the occupation from occurring, correct? 18 A: That's -- that's correct. 19 Q: Right. Or to arrest the people that 20 were occupying the Park absent some sort of court order, 21 correct? 22 A: That's correct. That's what I 23 understood. 24 Q: Okay. And that's how you conducted 25 yourself on September 4, 5, and 6 was in accordance with
2521 what we've discussed? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. In other words, continuing 4 with what you understood was keeping the peace in a non- 5 confrontational approach, right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: That was your approach as squadron 8 leader for ERT? 9 A: Well, this -- this wasn't because of 10 the -- the takeover of the Park it -- it was different 11 than Project Maple. Like you say it was -- the takeover 12 with violence was -- Project Maple was a peaceful 13 takeover. 14 Q: All right. So in your mind or at 15 least your understanding was Project Maple was never 16 implemented because it wasn't as you've said a peaceful 17 takeover of the Park? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Plans changed? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Right. Were you ever provided with a 22 new plan or simply directions by way of these briefings? 23 A: Directions by way of the briefings. 24 Q: Okay. Now, September the 6th, if I 25 can move you ahead two (2) days, you've testified that
2531 your understanding was the purpose for the CMU unit 2 moving down was to clear the sandy parking lot? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Right. And you have mentioned along 5 the way a safety issue. Do you remember saying that? 6 A: Safety issue -- public safety issue? 7 Q: Public safety issue. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in that regard you referred to 10 the cottagers in the area? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Right. You were aware when you were 13 gathered on East Parkway being briefed on what was going 14 to in happen, that in fact the roads were closed by the 15 OPP by that time? 16 A: I don't recall that. 17 Q: You don't recall being briefed on -- 18 A: The road closure, that specific -- 19 no. 20 Q: Okay. Were you briefed on whether or 21 not there were -- was anybody in the cottages at that 22 time? 23 A: Well, I was aware the cottage at the 24 end of the road because I spoke to the occupants. 25 Q: Right, the day before?
2541 A: No, that would be that morning. 2 Q: That morning? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. But from that morning up 5 until nine o'clock -- 6 A: No, I never received any information 7 of -- 8 Q: Right. You weren't aware of -- 9 A: -- whether there was people in or out 10 of them. 11 Q: Okay. And that wasn't part of the 12 briefing which occurred whether or not there were people 13 in those cottages at that time? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Okay. Now you were present when the 16 briefing and debriefing occurred and a meeting with 17 Sergeant Wright, correct? At eight o'clock the night of 18 September the 6th? 19 You were there for that debriefing of your 20 unit? 21 A: I was at a debriefing. I don't know 22 if Mark Wright was there. 23 Q: Okay. Who was part of that 24 debriefing that evening? 25 A: I don't recall.
2551 Q: All right. Was there any discussion 2 at that briefing, that you recall, about retaking the 3 Park as an option? 4 A: I don't recall that at all. 5 Q: Now I noticed in your examination-in- 6 chief that your evidence regarding what occurred 7 following the start of the walk down East Parkway Drive, 8 was primarily from a reading of your notes, correct? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Okay. Do I take it then that your 11 independent recollection is fairly minimal and that the 12 best evidence as to what happened from you is contained 13 in your notes? 14 Is that why that occurred? 15 A: No. That's what the examination-in- 16 chief led me through but I have a fairly good 17 recollection of -- of the events. 18 Q: So it's just a reading of the notes 19 for convenience, you're saying? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 21 believe this Witness -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: I believe that this 24 Witness was asked to read his notes by Mr. Worme. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I
2561 think he was, in large part. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He was. I'm simply 3 asking him -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- in regards 6 independent recollection. It's fairly straightforward. 7 He's indicated he has some -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- more to add. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 13 Q: And I'm just -- I'm looking into why 14 this march occurred down the road. And I suggest to you 15 that in addition to whatever you've testified to already, 16 that this movement of a significant number of police 17 officers down East Parkway Drive, was, in large part, a 18 show of force, to not only move the occupiers back into 19 the Park, but try to keep them there. 20 Is that fair? 21 A: That decision wasn't mine to make. 22 It was an Incident Command decision. 23 Q: I appreciate that. But that was your 24 understanding at the time, was it not? 25 A: My understanding, our mission was to
2571 remove the people from the sandy parking lot. That was 2 my understanding of the mission. 3 Q: Right. And it was more or less a 4 show of force to have the people stay in the Park? 5 A: Yes. If we're down there, that -- 6 we're hoping the show of force would prevent the people 7 from coming out. 8 Q: Right. That was -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- why it was occurring, correct? 11 A: Well I -- I don't know why or what 12 decisions were made to send us down there. That was my 13 impression that -- that many police officers down there 14 is going to cause the people to go back in the Park. 15 Q: Right. And you'd agree with me that 16 without arresting anyone at that point in time, simply 17 having them move back into the Park is a temporary 18 solution to them being in the parking lot, correct? 19 A: I don't know what the reaction would 20 have been. 21 Q: I'm suggesting it's a temporary 22 solution. They're free to come back into the parking lot 23 at any point within the hour, within the day, within the 24 week. It's a temporary solution, correct? 25 A: I don't know what the plans were once
2581 we got down there. If there was any plans on what we 2 were going to do, whether we were going to stay down 3 there, I -- I just don't know. 4 Q: Right. They didn't tell you if 5 you're going to just wait in the parking lot and see if 6 something happened? 7 A: I didn't have any of that 8 information, no. 9 Q: All right. I suggest to you that 10 that was part of the concern that you had when you were 11 going down -- or -- or dealing with the plan to go down 12 the road, and that's why you asked Sergeant Korosec if 13 you were to be going into the Park to arrest people. 14 Is that fair? 15 A: No. I just wanted to make sure -- I 16 didn't think it was safe to go into the Park at night and 17 I wanted to make sure the plan wasn't to go into the 18 Park. And I was assured the plan was not to go into the 19 Park. 20 Q: Right. Because there was some 21 confusion among your members of the ERT squad as to 22 whether or not the plan was going to include going into 23 the Park. 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Right. If you turn to Tab 24 of your
2591 package, there's testimony that you gave at the trial for 2 Cecil Bernard George. Do you have that before you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: It's marked as P-1340, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 7 it. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 10 Q: Four (4) pages in to your testimony, 11 do you have that before you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Five (5) lines down, it says: 14 "What was the mission? 15 Q: What was the mission?" 16 Your answer at that time: 17 "The mission was these..." 18 A: Just one (1) second here. I got to 19 find that spot. 20 Q: Page 185. 21 A: Oh, okay, I'm on the right page. 22 Okay, what was the mission. Okay. 23 Q: All right? 24 A: I'm there. 25 Q: The start of your answer is:
2601 "The mission was these Native 2 protesters were coming out of the Park 3 and to go down the road and make sure 4 they didn't come out of the Park, just 5 stay in the Park." 6 Correct? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: The last part of your answer says: 9 "It was more or less a show of force, 10 stay in the Park." 11 Correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: That's the answer that you gave at 14 that point in time to the question, What was the mission? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: That was your understanding at the 17 time. 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now you were asked by Ms. Esmonde 24 about your notes, and the preparation of your notes. 25 You'd agree that preparing your notes after meeting with
2611 other officers can affect the accuracy of your notes from 2 your perspective; is that fair? 3 A: It's possible, yes. 4 Q: It's a risk of discussing your 5 potential evidence, or ways of refreshing your evidence, 6 if you talk with others involved in the incident before 7 making those notes, correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: All right. Was that a concern when 10 you were meeting with your fellow officers at that time, 11 that you didn't have notes prepared yet? Or did you turn 12 your mind to it? 13 A: I never turned my mind to it. 14 Q: And I think you testified earlier, 15 but perhaps you can confirm, that you were never 16 instructed by any of those in charge, in command, not to 17 talk about these events before making your notes? 18 A: No, I don't recall that. 19 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 20 Those are my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You weren't 22 paying attention to him, were you? 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He was kicking me 24 and I was... 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
2621 Mr. Scullion. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: ...inclined to sit 3 down. Thanks. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Good afternoon, 8 sir. 9 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 afternoon, Ms. Johnson. 12 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Mr. Commissioner. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 15 Q: My name is Colleen Johnson. I'm 16 shorter than My Friend that just left. 17 I represent the Kettle and Stony Point 18 First Nation and am acting as agent today for the Chiefs 19 of Ontario. I just have a few questions for you, sir. 20 When you proceeded, and you've been asked 21 about this a number of times, and I'll indicate, just for 22 your assistance, that mostly we'll be looking at Tab 24, 23 which you've already looked at, and that's your evidence 24 with -- in the trial of The Queen versus Cecil Bernard 25 George. And it's Exhibit 14 -- P-1440.
2631 When you attended there as a group, the 2 police, the goal was for the protesters to go back into 3 the Park. You've already testified to that a number of 4 times today; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: How was that communicated to the 7 protesters? How were they to know that your presence 8 there meant they should turn around and go back into the 9 Park? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just give 11 him a chance to answer. 12 THE WITNESS: First off, our physical 13 presence, going down the roadway. As we moved into the - 14 - the sandy parking lot, they all moved back into the 15 park. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 18 Q: So initially, they retreated. At 19 that point in time, the shield chatter was occurring; is 20 that correct? 21 A: I -- I don't recall when the shield 22 chatter happened. 23 Q: Okay. But they see a large number of 24 officers coming down the road, they turned around and ran 25 back into the Park; is that correct?
2641 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Was it communicated to them 3 that they were to stay in the Park, in any way? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: Was there any communication that you 6 witnessed occurring between them that night and 7 yourselves? 8 A: The only communication was them 9 yelling at us, that I'm aware of. Now there may have 10 been something else. 11 Q: Did you have any bullhorns, that you 12 were aware? 13 A: No, I did not have a bullhorn. 14 Q: Any spokespeople from your group, 15 that you're aware of -- 16 A: I'm not aware of that. 17 Q: -- attempting to speak to the 18 protestors? 19 A: I'm not aware of that. 20 Q: Okay. Now you indicated that there 21 was one (1) individual yelling about his land, and that 22 his grandfather had died for his country and those kinds 23 of things. And then the punchout happens, correct? 24 A: Which? I believe that was the left 25 cover punched out, yes.
2651 Q: Okay. And tell me, when the punchout 2 happens there's an order; is that correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And is it shouted out? 5 A: I don't know if that order came over 6 the radio or if it was shouted. 7 Q: Okay. If a civilian heard the term, 8 'punchout', what are they likely to construe from that? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: Is 'punchout' a term that is pretty 11 specific to this OPP tactic? 12 A: It's a command for one (1) or more 13 units to move forward at speed. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And that's -- that's the command, 16 yes. 17 Q: Would you agree that 'punchout' in 18 that term is somewhat different from day-to-day usage of 19 the term 'punch' or 'punchout'? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And would you agree with me 22 that, generally speaking, from someone without a policing 23 background, that punch or punchout would signify an act 24 of assault? 25 A: It could.
2661 Q: Generally speaking it's the physical 2 act of punching someone; is that correct? 3 A: That's -- that's a term that could be 4 used for fight. 5 Q: Yeah. In the day-to-day -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- usage. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So if an individual heard 'punchout' 10 and wasn't aware of policing tactics, they may not know 11 that that -- that the order being given was for the 12 police to advance; is that correct? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Okay. Now you indicate there's an 15 individual, and this was the second punchout, when Cecil 16 Bernard George was actually run over by the advancing 17 officers. He's standing; I believe you said that he was 18 taking a defensive stance; is that correct? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 20 you answer, yes, Ms. Jones? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, Mr. 22 Commissioner, I'm just concerned because I think the 23 evidence of this Witness was he wasn't sure if there were 24 one (1) person or two (2) persons and who actually out of 25 what he saw Cecil Bernard George was. So it might be --
2671 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: -- easier to talk -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to him about what he 5 saw as opposed to try and say that he saw -- 6 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: -- one (1) person, it 8 was Cecil Bernard George. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I gather Ms. 10 Johnson's -- 11 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'll rephrase. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- agreeing 13 with you, Ms. Jones. Okay. Carry on. 14 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'll rephrase. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 17 Q: There was an individual, alone, is 18 that correct, outside of the Park, just prior to the 19 second punchout? 20 A: No, there was a number of individuals 21 out of the Park. 22 Q: Okay. And then was there, at some 23 point, one (1) individual left out there alone? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. You perceived someone to be
2681 the leader from that group; is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Okay. And tell us what you saw with 4 regards to that? 5 A: Well, he stood in front of the 6 others. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: There was a lot of yelling. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: They all had weapons in their hands. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: And he drew a line in the sand. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I -- I don't recall exactly what he 15 said -- 16 Q: That's fine. 17 A: -- because there was so much. 18 Q: But he drew a line in the stan -- 19 A: In the sand. 20 Q: -- sand? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Okay. And then what happens? 23 A: There's a punchout. I don't know 24 what kind of -- 25 Q: All right.
2691 A: -- timeframe but the whole unit moved 2 forward -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- at speed. 5 Q: And did he move from where he was 6 standing at that point? 7 A: He looked like he was going to turn, 8 as most of them out there turned -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- to run back to the Park and then-- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- for whatever reason he turned 13 back. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: And took -- 16 Q: Yeah? 17 A: -- took the bat over his shoulder 18 and -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- waited for the officers to arrive. 21 Q: Okay. He stood and he waited for the 22 officers to arrive. Okay. And so the contact that was 23 made with him was he was standing and the officers were 24 moving forward; is that correct? 25 A: That's correct, yes.
2701 Q: Okay. At no point did -- during that 2 time did he run towards the officers? 3 A: No. I don't think he did. 4 Q: Now you have a number of individuals 5 that you're responsible for, is that correct; on that 6 evening? 7 A: There -- there was seven (7) other 8 officers in my squad. 9 Q: Okay. And if I could ask you to turn 10 to Tab 18, and it's Inquiry Document P-1416. Now, had 11 you -- 12 A: I don't have that number anywhere on 13 -- on here. 14 Q: That's fine. But it's Tab 18; is 15 that correct? 16 A: 48 -- 489 front on there. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 18 right. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Okay. Thank you. 23 Q: And it's a diagram; is that correct? 24 A: Yes, that's correct. 25 Q: And can you find your unit on that
2711 diagram? 2 A: Yes. It's to the right. 3 Q: Towards the top of the diagram? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And can you list for me the 6 officers that are -- well first of all, there's -- it 7 says Huntley and Osborne. And the two (2) of you were 8 side by side; is that correct? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And that's towards the right, 11 correct; of the page. 12 A: Well, it's below -- below the six (6) 13 officers in front of us. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: Yeah, we usually stay in the middle. 16 Q: Okay. And then you have your unit in 17 front of you; is that correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. And can you list those 20 officers for us? 21 A: In this -- in this diagram it shows 22 Schwass, Cossitt, Christie, D. Smith, Stirling and 23 Spencer. 24 Q: Is that an accurate version of your 25 unit that day?
2721 A: I believe those are the officers but 2 I -- I can't tell you if that's their position in -- in 3 front of me. 4 Q: I'm sorry, you can't tell me...? 5 A: That that's their position in front 6 of me. 7 Q: Are they all in front of you but 8 perhaps not in that order? 9 A: That -- that's what I'm saying. I 10 don't know if this is the -- the order in this picture. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: I can't tell you if -- if that's -- 13 Q: That's fair. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: That's fair. When the punchout 16 occurs, now you have your six (6) officers, are they 17 standing shoulder to shoulder? Not necessarily in the 18 order they're listed. 19 A: I -- when the -- I don't know how 20 they were standing when the punchout started. Usually 21 they're in pairs but -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- the training dictates usually how 24 we are in the formation but I -- I don't know if -- if 25 all of them are shoulder to shoulder or if they were
2731 spread out. I -- I don't recall that. 2 Q: Do you recall being able to -- were 3 they within your vision, within your sight? 4 A: They'd be right in front of me. 5 Q: Okay. So you were able to see all 6 six (6)? We can see -- 7 A: Not at all -- not at all times 8 through the night but -- 9 Q: Let's speak to just prior to the 10 punch out. You're in formation at that time; is that 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. You can visually see all six 14 (6); is that correct? 15 A: I'm not sure. 16 Q: Okay. Prior to engaging with the 17 protesters are you visually able to see all six (6)? 18 A: That's -- it's a tough question 19 because at times, yes, at other times, no. I would -- it 20 was Osborne's and my job to keep them in -- in the 21 formation. So he would be concentrating on probably the 22 right side, I'd concentrate on the left side. 23 Q: I'm sorry. Sometimes I have a hard 24 time hearing. 25 A: He would concentrate on the right,
2741 I'd concentrate on the left. But -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- it all depends on what -- what 4 time, whether we can see them or not; what time it was, 5 what we were doing. 6 Q: Okay. Okay. Marching down the road, 7 you certainly would have been able to see them? 8 A: In the for -- depending on the 9 formation, maybe not. 10 Q: Okay. You get to the parking lot, 11 are you able to see them, prior to anything occurring? 12 A: Like, we're all there together -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- so I guess -- I guess I -- I kind 15 of -- I don't understand the question. 16 Q: I'm not trying to trick you. 17 A: No, I'm just, like, it's -- it's 18 dark. Not -- I would be able to see them, I'd know they 19 were all there, because if they weren't then Pete Osborne 20 would -- would let me know. 21 Q: Okay. And then the punchout happens. 22 Tell me about that, how that works with regards to your 23 unit and where you and Osborne are? 24 A: Well, the whole team moves forward 25 and just straight forward.
2751 Q: The eight (8) of you somewhat 2 together? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And the centre unit is doing 5 the same thing, is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And the people on the other 8 side, on the left are doing the same thing? 9 A: They should be, yes. 10 Q: Okay, okay. With regards to the 11 people that come into contact with Cecil Bernard George, 12 that was the centre team, is that correct? 13 A: I believe it was, yes. 14 Q: Okay. Can you indicate that it was 15 not your team? 16 A: It shouldn't have been my team, 17 'cause they were in front of me. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I -- no, it wasn't my team. 20 Q: Okay. At any point in time, did you 21 see any of the members of your team near Cecil Bernard 22 George? 23 I'm sorry, let's -- I'll keep in mind My 24 Friend's admonishment a few minutes ago. 25 At any point in time, did you see your
2761 team members near the individual that had drawn the line 2 in the sand and was standing? 3 A: I wouldn't expect to -- to see them, 4 like, I wouldn't expect to see them over there, so. 5 Q: Okay. And then there's an individual 6 on the ground. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And at any point in time did you see 9 your team members over near the individual on the ground? 10 A: At that time I don't know where all 11 my team members were. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: So I can't say. 14 Q: Okay. For how a long a period of 15 time are you unclear as to where all of the team members 16 were, approximately? 17 A: I -- I don't know how -- how long -- 18 Q: Is it a matter of seconds, minutes? 19 I'm assuming it's not hours. 20 A: No. I just don't know. 21 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated and I'm 22 finished with the diagram. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Go back to Tab 24, if you would. 25 Just so that you have it there.
2771 You indicated that you engaged an 2 individual and you've indicated this at page 196 of your 3 testimony that you engaged with an individual. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Towards the bottom of page 196, in 8 the middle of the last answer on that page you indicate: 9 "Ah, as I'm running past I saw an 10 individual come out of the Park, just a 11 silhouette, carrying a long club and 12 he's running towards this individual 13 who was being arrested, toward that 14 group of people." 15 And there was only one (1) individual 16 arrested that night, is that correct? 17 A: That's what I understand now. 18 Q: And that would be Cecil Bernard 19 George, is that correct? 20 A: I understand it was. 21 Q: Okay. And then you engaged the 22 individual, is that correct? 23 A: This person coming out of the Park, 24 yes. 25 Q: Yes. And -- and you stand by that
2781 testimony that when you engaged him, he was running 2 towards Cecil Bernard George? 3 A: He was running towards -- in that 4 direction, yes. 5 Q: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Now, you only caught glimpses of the 10 individual on the ground, is that correct? 11 A: Just a glimpse, yes. 12 Q: Okay, did you ever see anyone 13 striking him? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: Okay, because you really didn't have 16 a clear view at all. You -- you really can't say what 17 you -- during the glimpses that you had, you didn't see 18 anyone striking him? 19 A: No, I didn't. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: I want to commend you for making your 25 apologies today with regards to prior statements.
2791 A: Thank you. 2 Q: And it signifies that you've begun to 3 -- to have some -- some knowledge and do some growing in 4 that regard. And certainly with growing. there's growing 5 pain. So I'm going to ask you to carefully consider your 6 next answers. 7 And I'm not going to return to the 8 comments that were made, you've already clarified that 9 you recognize them as being unprofessional and you've 10 made your apologies for them. 11 Would you agree that those comments 12 indicated, at the time, a lack of understanding regarding 13 First Nations peoples ? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Would you agree that the lack 16 of understanding led to a feeling of frustration on your 17 part with regards to benefits that you perceived First 18 Nations peoples as receiving? 19 A: Can you repeat that please? 20 Q: Would you agree that the lack of 21 understanding, between yourself and First Nations 22 peoples, led to a feeling of frustration with regards to 23 benefits that you perceived First Nations peoples as 24 having -- as being in receipt of? 25 A: No.
2801 Q: Would you agree that there was a 2 sense of frustration in your dealings with First Nations 3 peoples? 4 A: No. 5 Q: As -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: As exhibited by your comments? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You wouldn't agree that there was any 10 kind of frustration? 11 A: Not against First Nations people. 12 Q: Against the benefits they were 13 receiving? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Or you perceived them to receive? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Tell me then, what was the comment 18 about your tax payer dollars going to build shelters? 19 A: That comment -- I can't sit here 20 today and tell you what I was thinking then. That -- 21 that comment was inappropriate. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: I'm not going to try to explain it -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: I can't, and it's unprofessional.
2811 Q: You don't believe it indicated a 2 sense of frustration? 3 A: No. 4 Q: I'd suggest to you it did indicate a 5 sense of frustration, and that you felt free to share 6 those views because many people felt that frustration, 7 many people within the OPP around you. 8 A: I can't agree to that. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: I'd suggest that if there were many 13 within the OPP feeling that sense of frustration, that 14 they carried it with them at all times? 15 A: Those -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Johnson, 17 that would be part of your submission when you come to 18 make it, that's not a question that this Witness -- 19 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Perhaps I can 20 rephrase it. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- can 22 answer. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 25 Q: I'd suggest that if you were feeling
2821 that frustration you would have carried it with you at 2 all times? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Those are my questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 Mr. Mathai...? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 afternoon. 16 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Good afternoon, 17 Commissioner. 18 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Good afternoon, 19 Sergeant. 20 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 21 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Commissioner, you'll 22 be happy to know that Julian Falconer will not be 23 conducting the cross-examination today. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 25 why you say that.
2831 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: You may also -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 3 why you say that. 4 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: You may also find -- 5 might find it comfortable that I've learned most of what 6 I have learned from Mr. Roy. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then you've 8 been well taught. 9 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: This mic? Thank you. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 12 Q: I want to begin with asking you to 13 turn to Tab 18. Now, I know Mr. Worme and other people 14 have referred to this document, but I just want to 15 clarify something with you. 16 I believe this is Tab 18, Exhibit 41 -- 17 1416. 18 A: Is that 489 front? 19 Q: Sorry? 20 A: Does that say 489 front, up at the 21 top? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Yeah.
2841 Q: Now in this diagram you are in the 2 right portion? 3 A: I am. 4 Q: And you are part of the right support 5 -- support group or right cover group? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Okay. And you are the leader of the 8 cover group? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Now earlier you were answering 11 Ms. Johnson's questions, you said that you weren't sure 12 about the order of the people in front of you; is that 13 correct? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. But you are sure that Osborne 16 was -- I'm not sure his rank, it's Constable? 17 A: Constable, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Constable Osborne was to the 19 right of you? 20 A: Yes. He was my partner. 21 Q: Okay. And I understand that the 22 reason he was beside you is because in the CMU formation 23 there is a buddy type system? 24 A: That's -- that's part of it. 25 Q: Yes. And the reason for that buddy
2851 system is -- is because no one is meant to be left 2 behind, right? 3 You're supposed to have someone with you 4 at all times when dealing with possible confrontations; 5 is that correct? 6 A: Yeah. And we also -- as leaders we 7 also have another role which is to keep the -- the 8 people in front of us in -- together. 9 Q: Okay. But Osborne's role is to stay 10 close to you, for numerous reasons including safety, 11 correct? 12 A: Yeah. Yes. 13 Q: Okay. So generally speaking what 14 Osborne can see is -- is what you can see? 15 A: I -- I wouldn't agree to that. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Because there's so much going there, 18 I don't know where he's looking or what he's doing. 19 Q: Fair enough. Fair enough. But you 20 guys are close together then, correct? 21 A: At times, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Now I'd like to ask you to 23 take a look at Constable Osbourne's statement. 24 And I've put this in the Document Notice, 25 I'd ask that the clerk give a copy to Sergeant Huntley.
2861 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I understand this hasn't been marked 4 as an exhibit yet, has it? I would like -- 5 A: Thank you. 6 Q: I'd ask that it be marked an exhibit 7 now. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, just, Mr. 10 Commissioner, what would it be marked as an exhibit on 11 the basis of? He's just -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it 13 isn't. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- just a piece of 15 paper -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We haven't 17 been very -- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- in front of the 19 Witness, who the Witness may have no knowledge of. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know that. 21 I haven't -- 22 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I'm sorry. I'll lead 23 into it, if -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- that's what's
2871 required, I -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 That's fine. We haven't been observing that as strictly 4 perhaps as you might. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Well -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But that's 7 fine. There isn't any basis -- 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: If -- if she wants -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 10 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- that I lead it in, 11 then I will gladly do that. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 14 Q: Now I want to first, then, before I 15 go to the statement, to -- to build a little bit of a 16 context here -- context, sorry, for you. I would ask 17 that you turn to Tab 27. 18 Now this is your statement that you gave 19 to the SIU on February 17th, 1998; is that correct? 20 A: I -- that's my statement to the SIU, 21 yes. 22 Q: Okay. And that was on February 17th, 23 1998, right? If you look at the first page. 24 A: Is there a date on it? 25 Q: The first page there, it says --
2881 A: Oh, okay. Yes. Okay. 2 Q: Okay. And this is marked as Exhibit 3 P-1441. 4 Now, I understand from hearing your 5 testimony today that there's a little bit of confusion as 6 to who was who on that night, in terms of the person who 7 was bowled over versus the person who was on the ground. 8 Okay. 9 And I understand that based on your SIU 10 statement and your testimony today, that those are two 11 (2) different people, the person who got bowled over and 12 the person who was on the ground? 13 A: No, I didn't say that. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I said I made an assumption it was -- 16 Q: You made an assumption. 17 A: -- the same person -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- but I can't say it's the same 20 person. 21 Q: Fair enough. So -- so they could be 22 two (2) different people? 23 A: They could be. 24 Q: Okay. The reason I separate that is 25 I just really want to deal with the person who is on the
2891 ground. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And from what I've heard today, based 4 on your SIU statement, reading your statements at the 5 trials beforehand and your testimony today, there's three 6 (3) things I gleam, and I'm going to put them to you and 7 then I'd ask that you take your time, look through 8 whatever you need to look through, to confirm whether or 9 not I'm right in -- in the three (3) things I'm about to 10 characterize for you today. 11 The first is that the person was 12 eventually arrested -- or, sorry, was in -- that there 13 were individuals or members of the CMU that were 14 attempting to arrest him? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. The second was that that 17 person was struggling, correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Okay. And third was that that person 20 is on the ground? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Okay. And just so we're clear, when 23 I say that members of the CMU were trying to arrest the 24 person, we're talking -- based on your testimony today, 25 we're talking about the contact group?
2901 A: And I assumed it was the contact 2 group. 3 Q: You assume that it was the contact 4 group as opposed to the arrest group that was behind you? 5 A: That's right. They would be behind 6 us. 7 Q: Okay. And when you saw this, 8 presumably -- and to be fair to you, you may not know 9 this. And if you don't, that's fine. But presumably, at 10 that time, Constable Osborne would be around you, 11 correct? 12 A: While we were running forward? I -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- I don't know where he was. 15 Q: You don't know. But presumably, in 16 order to -- to stick with the model of the CMU and the 17 buddy system, that he would be close to you, correct? I 18 -- I understand you don't know for sure. 19 A: And I don't know for sure but I just 20 want to clarify. Like we're -- our role is to keep the 21 six (6) people in front of us. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: So it's not like the six (6) people 24 in front of us would be pairs. 25 Q: Okay.
2911 A: They're the buddy system. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Osborne and I, yes, we're together. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: But we've got other responsibilities 6 and that's keeping -- so he may not be right with me once 7 -- especially once we're running. 8 Q: Okay. Well let's take a look at what 9 Constable Osborne saw that evening. And -- and we'll 10 compare it to what you saw and -- and we -- we'll -- 11 we'll maybe compare and contrast, if that's okay. 12 At this point I'd like to mark it as an 13 exhibit. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 15 seen any basis for it yet. So if we're going to be -- 16 Ms. Jones is objecting -- 17 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay, that's fine. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- at this 19 point, so we -- 20 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: No. That's fine, I -- 21 I'll do that -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: We -- we've just had a 23 number of occasions where documents are put down in front 24 of witnesses. And, you know, the Commission has said, 25 well, you know, there needs to be a foundation --
2921 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There needs 2 to be something. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: -- before -- before 4 they become an exhibit. That's all I'm saying, Mr. 5 Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There needs 7 to be something. 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. That's fair. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 11 Q: Sergeant Huntley, you didn't observe 12 any member of the contact squad who was attempting to 13 arrest this person down on the ground, hit the individual 14 on the ground with a baton? 15 A: I didn't see anybody hit. 16 Q: Okay. So no one hit him with an ASP 17 baton? 18 A: An ASP. I never -- 19 Q: An ASP baton? 20 A: -- saw anybody hit that person on the 21 ground with an ASP baton. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He didn't 23 say no one hit him, he said he didn't see anybody. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI:
2931 Q: He didn't -- sorry, you didn't see 2 anybody? 3 A: No, I didn't. 4 Q: Okay. And would it surprise you if 5 Constable Osborne saw someone hit this individual on the 6 ground with an ASP baton? 7 A: I can't speak for what Constable 8 Osborne saw or did out there. 9 Q: Okay. At -- at this point I'd like 10 to enter as an -- or actually, what I'll do right now -- 11 I'd like to enter it in as an exhibit. In -- in this 12 statement, we'll go through it with him to compare what 13 he saw with Constable -- with Sergeant Huntley -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't 15 you just carry on with your examination and then we'll 16 see when you're finished whether or not we can have it 17 made an exhibit. Why don't you just carry on with your 18 examination? 19 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Fair enough. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can use 21 a statement that's not an exhibit -- 22 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Hmm hmm. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in order 24 to conduct your examination, your cross-examination. 25
2941 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 4 Q: Okay. Are you aware that Constable 5 Osborne also saw an individual who was on the ground? 6 A: I don't know what Constable Osborne 7 saw. 8 Q: Are you aware that Constable -- 9 Constable, sorry, Osborne also saw someone struggling on 10 the ground with members of the contact squad? 11 A: I don't know what he saw. 12 Q: And I'm going to ask you again, do 13 you -- do you realize or are you aware that Constable 14 Osborne saw members of the contact squad hit Mr. -- 15 sorry, this individual who's on the ground with an ASP 16 baton? 17 A: I'm -- can you repeat that again, 18 sir, I'm sorry. 19 Q: No, no that's fine. It was poorly 20 worded. Are you aware that Constable Osborne has 21 provided testimony to the SIU -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 23 think it would be really helpful if -- if something from 24 a statement were being put to this Witness, that what is 25 in the document at least be put down accurately.
2951 What is here, as far as I see, on page 3 2 is: 3 "Contact right and left support ran 4 forward to my left contact team. I 5 observed a heavy set Native facing the 6 contact team, swing what appeared to be 7 a large stick at the contact team 8 across three (3) members. 9 He was struck with an ASP baton." 10 And later on -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- on another page -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is in 14 the Osborne statement? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: This is in the Osborne 16 statement and -- 17 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sorry, I'm a little -- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. Just later on 19 talking about the Osborne statement, he talks about 20 seeing a person on the ground and he's asked about what 21 he sees on the ground, which is different. 22 From what I can understand, the two (2) 23 things are being rolled into one (1). It appears to me, 24 at least on this document, they're separate. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Well,
2961 I think it would be useful at this point to put the 2 Osborne statement in as an exhibit and let you use it if 3 you wish to and ask the questions, if you're going to ask 4 him about the statement more directly -- 5 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- from the 7 statement. 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Can we mark this as an 9 exhibit? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we'll 11 mark it as an exhibit now. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1445, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1445. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1445: Interview of Senior Constable 16 George "Peter" Osborne, May 17 07, 1998. 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now if 20 you're going to use it to cross-examine you should quote 21 from it -- 22 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I will. Now that it's 23 an exhibit -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- correctly. 25 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- I'll quote from it.
2971 Has a copy been given to the Witness? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have a copy. 3 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: You have a copy. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 6 Q: If we can turn to page 3 and we're 7 going to go halfway down, beginning at, "Please 8 describe." You'll see there that it says: 9 "Please describe in full detail the 10 incident or incidents you observed 11 concerning Natives being overrun or 12 falling during the punchout." 13 Can you read the answer? 14 A: "The command to move forward --" 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 16 THE WITNESS: "-- was given within forty 17 (40) metres of the fence. Contact 18 right and left support ran forward to 19 my left. Contact team, I observed a 20 large heavy-set Native facing the 21 contact team, swing what appeared to be 22 a large stick at the contact team 23 across three (3) members. He was 24 struck with an ASP baton. This was 25 within one (1) or two (2) seconds. My
2981 focus immediately turned to Sergeant 2 Huntley who engaged and deflected a 3 blow from a Native who swung a stick 4 from right to left and contacted the 5 shield of Sergeant Huntley. He was 6 immediately struck in the area behind 7 the left knee, a substantial blow. He 8 turned and headed to the fence line. I 9 went forward and attempted to engage 10 another male. I was running." 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: "I chased him to the fence 13 and hopped -- and he hopped over. Our 14 orders were under no circumstances to 15 enter the Park. I turned and started 16 back towards Sergeant Huntley. I heard 17 someone yell, Get him the hell out of 18 here. I noted an individual was on the 19 ground, a number of officers were 20 around him. Now this would be to my 21 right as I'm going back. They lifted 22 him and carried him towards one (1) of 23 the prisoner vans. My focus on this 24 individual was very short. At the time 25 of the engagement --"
2991 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: "-- a matter of a few 3 seconds after the engagement it was 4 perhaps a couple of seconds, maybe five 5 (5)." 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not his 7 statement so it's not helpful to have him read it. 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, if 10 you want to put something to him -- 11 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Fair enough. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- put it to 13 him. 14 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: And -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Asking him 16 to read somebody else's statement is -- 17 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Fair enough. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 20 Q: And -- and you'll agree that he -- 21 that he goes on to say that the person arrested was on 22 the ground, correct? 23 And you can see that as the next question 24 and answer? 25 A: Yeah, I -- I'm reading his statement.
3001 I -- I don't know what he saw. 2 Q: No, I -- I understand. 3 A: I don't know where he was, I'm just 4 reading his statement. 5 Q: I understand that. I'm just asking 6 you whether or not the -- that -- whether or not from the 7 statement it's clear that Mr. Osborne says that the 8 person arrested was on the ground. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: His answer to a question is he was on 13 the ground and there were perhaps three (3) or four (4) 14 officers around him. 15 Q: Okay. And if we go then to page 4. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 17 minute. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps I could just 19 interrupt very briefly. And I think perhaps what My 20 Friend Mr. Mathai is struggling with is I think he wants 21 to put the -- the statements of Constable Osborne to the 22 Witness -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: -- and perhaps he 25 might simply ask whether or not that assists in
3011 refreshing his memory, and maybe that will avoid some of 2 the frustration that I think is being found here in the 3 manner -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that 5 would be an easy way to do it. That would be an easy way 6 to do it. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 9 Q: Okay. Does this help in refreshing 10 your memory? 11 A: No. 12 Q: It does not? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Okay. Looking through this statement 19 though, you will agree that there is a person according 20 to -- to Constable Osborne that has been arrested and is 21 on the ground, correct? 22 A: According to his statement, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And you would agree and -- and 24 you can look for this on -- on paragraph 4, you would 25 agree that in that statement he notes that the person who
3021 -- who was engaged by the contact team was also hit by 2 the ASP batons, correct? 3 A: Which -- which paragraph was that? 4 Q: Sorry, we're on page 4 and it's -- 5 A: Page 4. 6 Q: -- maybe one-third of the way down, 7 beginning at the answer, "The engagement..." 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Halfway down did you say? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: "The engagement..." 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 18 think it's helpful to put in Constable Osborne's evidence 19 through Constable Huntley. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 22 Q: Okay. Reading that does it refresh 23 your memory -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- as to whether or not the person
3031 who was on the ground, arrested by the contact squad, was 2 hit by ASP batons, ASP batons? 3 A: No. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 5 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. Thank you. 6 I'll move on. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Well -- 8 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I'll move on. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Mr. Commissioner, -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- in all fairness, 13 too, that is not what this statement says. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: The paragraph that -- 16 that this officer has read out talks about, first of 17 all -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: -- someone striking at 20 three (3) members of the contact squad -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: with a large stick -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and being struck 25 with an ASP baton. He then goes on to say he gets
3041 engaged to something else. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He'll move 3 on. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: He looks back later on, 5 he sees -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: -- someone on the 8 ground and he -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- is asked 11 specifically by the SIU, Did you observe any baton 12 strikes while the prisoner is on the ground. And the 13 answer is, No. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 15 right. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: So it's not even a fair 17 rendition of what's in this document. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Mathai 19 was just about to move on. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 22 Q: I'll move on. We heard testimony 23 that you were involved in the removal of the picnic 24 tables, is that correct? 25 A: I was involved in the planning of it,
3051 yes. 2 Q: You were involved in the planning of 3 the picnic tables. 4 And the ERT members that were used to 5 remove the picnic tables, did they have shields? 6 A: I don't remember that. 7 Q: You don't remember that. 8 Would it be likely that they would use 9 shields to remove picnic tables? 10 A: I don't remember the use of shields. 11 Q: Okay. Do you remember if they had 12 ASP batons? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, the 14 evidence has been the ASP batons are given out on -- 15 during the course of the evening on September the 6th. 16 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: So because of that I 17 can't ask the question? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no. I 19 mean, you can ask the question. 20 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I don't understand -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 22 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- what the objection 23 is. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 25 question you can ask.
3061 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Yeah. I don't 2 understand -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 4 fine. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 7 Q: Were there dogs involved in the 8 removal of the picnic tables? 9 A: I don't remember that. 10 Q: You don't remember that as well? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And how many people were staffed to 13 remove the picnic tables? 14 A: I -- I don't recall the number. 15 Q: Okay. Less than forty (40)? 16 A: I -- I would say less than forty 17 (40). 18 Q: In terms of severity, you would agree 19 that the removal of the picnic tables and the team that 20 was used to remove the picnic tables is quite different 21 from the team that was used the night of the 6th, the 22 CMU, correct? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Commissioner, I -- can I have a break? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You need a
3071 break? By all means. 2 THE WITNESS: Just -- just two seconds, 3 it's too much water. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 5 THE WITNESS: And I'm having a hard time 6 concentrating. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 8 short break. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 3:42 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 3:45 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes...? 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 20 Q: Just to continue on from before the 21 break. 22 So you were involved with staffing and 23 planning the removal of the picnic tables? 24 A: Not staffing. I was involved in a 25 little bit of the planning.
3081 Q: You were involved in a little bit of 2 the planning? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: But yet your involvement in the 5 planning does not give you any type of memory as to what 6 items were carried by the ERT members at that time? 7 A: We -- that's the morning of the -- 8 Q: Morning of the 6th. 9 A: -- 6th, and we got ASP batons issued 10 that night, so they wouldn't have -- 11 Q: So they wouldn't have ASP batons? 12 A: -- ASP batons. What -- what's your 13 next question? 14 Q: Okay. So generally speaking ERT 15 members, they don't carry shields when they're going 16 around? 17 A: No. 18 Q: CMU does carry shields? 19 A: Well, earth members are responsible 20 for CMU, it's all the same people, but we're also 21 responsible for search and rescue and -- and containment 22 calls. So CMU is one role within the ERT team. 23 Q: Okay. But when the CMU formation is 24 called out they usually have shields, correct? 25 A: If -- if we're involved in a -- an
3091 operation that we're in hard TAC, yes. 2 Q: Fair enough. And that morning of -- 3 that morning of the -- the 6th, the picnic tables 4 removal, you weren't involved in that type of operation, 5 were you? 6 A: I -- I was involved in the picnic 7 table removal. 8 Q: No, no. Sorry. But that wasn't a 9 hard TAC -- 10 A: Oh. 11 Q: -- as you referred to, mission the 12 morning of September 6th? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No. Okay. So you would agree that 15 there would be a -- a difference between the show of 16 force by an ERT team of, let's say, is it twelve (12) 17 members that are generally part of an ERT team? 18 A: No. Sixteen (16). 19 Q: Sixteen (16) members. And that of a 20 CMU of forty (40) people, dogs, shields, shield chatter, 21 some vans in the backs -- 22 A: It -- 23 Q: -- prisoner vans in the back, you 24 would agree that it's a different show of force, right? 25 A: Not quite sure. Like, when we're in
3101 hard TAC that's in an actual operation. When we're not 2 in hard TAC -- like ERT members can be doing task with a 3 lot of different jobs. 4 So these are completely different -- the 5 removal of the picnic tables is -- is not a Crowd 6 Management incident. 7 Q: Okay. No, that wasn't my question. 8 My question was just in terms of the show of force to the 9 individuals who are in the Park, the team that was 10 assembled to do the removal of the picnic tables would be 11 quite less on the scale of a show of force than that of a 12 CMU that's walking in with shields, batons, dogs in the 13 rear? 14 A: I -- I think the removal of the 15 picnic table, the numbers were there to -- because of the 16 physical labour. 17 Q: Okay. I want to talk you a little 18 bit about your note taking. You understand that as an 19 officer, it's your duty to take notes? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you understand that after a major 22 event you have to take notes? 23 A: As soon as practicable. 24 Q: As soon as practicable. And for you 25 that would have been on the morning of September 7th?
3111 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And that day on September 7th you 3 also gave a witness statement I believe. 4 A: That night. 5 Q: That night then. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And you understood that the 8 Witness statement wouldn't supplant any notes that you 9 were taking, correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: So you understood that you still had 12 an obligation to take your notes even though you'd be 13 doing a witness statement? 14 A: Well I did my notes as soon as 15 practicable which was for me, the 7th, the morning of the 16 7th. 17 Q: Okay. But you would never rely on a 18 witness statement and say that -- those are going to be 19 my notes for that day? 20 A: A witness -- I guess it depends on 21 the order that it was done and if -- if I -- if I had to 22 give a detailed statement prior to doing my -- my notes, 23 I might very well. 24 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me 25 though that there's a difference between a witness
3121 statement and notes, correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And in -- in notes, you're writing 4 your thoughts, your recollection of the events, correct? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And in a witness statement you're 7 responding to questions much like you're doing today and 8 you have less control of the information that's coming 9 out, correct? 10 A: Not necessarily. It depends on who's 11 taking the statement from me. 12 Q: Okay. But with -- as the comparator 13 being the notes that you're taking yourself, between the 14 two (2) you have less control over what gets taken down 15 when someone's asking you questions and you're answering, 16 correct? 17 A: When somebody's asking questions, 18 there are specific questions you're going to get answers 19 to. You -- you're going to get different information -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- if they ask you a question, you 22 may -- you may not have thought of putting that 23 information in your notebook. So you're going to get 24 different information. 25 Q: Okay. So you -- you could get
3131 different information but it wouldn't be necessarily as 2 full as the information as if you weren't asked any 3 questions and you're just writing down everything you 4 remember? 5 A: I'm having a hard time with that -- 6 to answer that. I really don't know how to answer that. 7 Q: Okay. May -- let's just -- I'll put 8 it this way? Generally speaking, you understand as your 9 duty as an officer, you have a duty to do notes, right? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Especially after a major event, 12 right? 13 A: After any event. 14 Q: Okay. But it's particularly 15 important in a major event when a lot of things happened 16 and there was a use of force and -- and it's important to 17 get that information down as soon as practically 18 possible? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me 21 then that those notes -- the note taking process and 22 getting down those notes is -- is an important duty that 23 would -- should not be supplanted by a witness statement? 24 A: Not necessarily. 25 Q: Okay. I'll move on. I -- I want to
3141 talk a little bit about your role as a supervisor. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Or sorry, the leader of the right 4 Support Group. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: Now in that role you weren't just 7 taking orders, correct? You were also handing out orders 8 to the six (6) people in front of you. 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Okay. So in that you have some 11 discretion as to what -- what to order or what not to 12 order, whether to arrest or not to arrest, whether engage 13 possibly or not engage. 14 A: We -- myself and my squad, that's my 15 whole squad take direction from the Staff Sergeant in 16 charge of the CMU. So we wait for the orders from him. 17 We just don't go off on our own and start doing things. 18 Q: No. And that's fair. But you're not 19 saying that all you do is take the orders and then relay. 20 You're not just a middle man. 21 You also have some exercise of control 22 over the six (6) members in front of you? 23 A: It -- it depends on the circumstance. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And in a Crowd Management Unit the
3151 leader, the staff sergeant, is the one who tells us what 2 to do. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: So if -- if we're in a formation, 5 like a cordon, then we take direction from him. 6 Q: Okay. So you have absolutely no 7 discretion, then, as the leader of those -- of those six 8 (6) people? 9 A: I guess you got to look at the 10 circumstances -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- what the circumstances are. If 13 I'm in a crowd -- we're in this -- this type of 14 formation, it's usually because we're dealing with a 15 hostile crowd. 16 Q: The only thing I have a problem with 17 saying it depends on the circumstances, is that almost 18 suggests that there is discretion, right? 19 If it depends on the circumstances, then 20 there's discretion, right? Or that there can be 21 discretion versus if -- if it -- there's no discretion 22 then it's an absolute. 23 But if there -- depends on the 24 circumstances, there must be discretion. 25 Do you understand what I'm saying?
3161 A: I think I'm following you, but -- 2 Q: Okay. So are we agreed that in some 3 scenarios, you would have a discretion over how to 4 operate the right support? 5 A: But in this circumstance and a -- in 6 a hostile crowd, no, there's not a lot of -- lot of 7 discretion. 8 Q: Generally, let's talk about 9 discretion then, maybe not in this particular instance, 10 on the night of the 6th, but let's talk a little bit 11 about discretion and the exercise of discretion. 12 When you're exercising discretion, you 13 have to exercise it to the best of your ability, correct? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Free from any types of prejudices, 16 correct? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Free from any type of -- of 19 motivating factor that would cause you to act unlawfully? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: So I -- that -- it wasn't a trick 24 question, it just -- 25 A: No, I've just --
3171 Q: The -- when you're exercising 2 discretion, you shouldn't allow a motive into your 3 thought process or into the exercise of that discretion 4 that would possibly cause you to act in an unlawful 5 manner, correct? 6 A: To cause -- I just don't know where 7 the discretion comes in causing me to act in an unlawful 8 manner. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Like, how do we get -- I just don't 11 know how we -- we associate those two (2). 12 Q: Okay. We've heard examples before 13 and maybe I'll give you an example of -- of when a police 14 officer pulls someone over. 15 Generally speaking, oftentimes, there's no 16 problem with that. But in some cases, you have instances 17 where a police officer will pull someone over based on 18 racial profiling and that is an exercise of discretion in 19 an improper way that leads to an unlawful, right, 20 stopping. 21 An unlawful use of discretion, do you 22 understand that example? 23 A: You're asking me to say that we 24 racially profile people -- 25 Q: No, that's not --
3181 A: -- before we stop them? 2 Q: That's -- that's not at all what I'm 3 asking -- 4 A: Okay. I -- I'll answer, the way I'll 5 answer that is if a police officer stops somebody, yes, 6 they are allowed to use their discretion. 7 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me 8 that when the public hears sentiments similar to the 9 sentiments that you made in or around the times of 10 September 4th to September 6th and I understand that 11 you've apologized for that and -- and I think that's 12 good. 13 But you understand that that would bring 14 down the public's perception of the proper use of -- of 15 discretion by OPP members, correct? 16 A: I never would have made those 17 comments in the public. 18 Q: Okay. That's not my question. My 19 question is, if the public knows that those statements 20 are made does that reduce their -- their support or their 21 confidence in policing? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 23 Jones...? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 25 how can this Witness talk about what the public -- what
3191 the public, what their view would be or whether it would 2 reduce confidence. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, I -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: How can he do that? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would just 6 ask him the questions without all of the background. 7 Just ask the question. 8 I understand you have some questions and I 9 would just ask them of this Witness. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 12 Q: Okay, do you think it lowers the 13 expectation of confidence -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. No, I 15 mean ask -- that's not what I meant. Do you want to help 16 me, Mr. Worme? I'm not sure how to put this. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm just not sure what 18 the -- what the point is to get this Witness to speculate 19 on what the public's perception would be if they knew 20 about comments that he had made in private -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm not sure that it's 23 helpful at all. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 25 think it's the public perception that you want from this
3201 Witness. It's... 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 4 Q: You -- when you were making any 5 decisions of discretion during September the 4th to 6 September 6th, did any of the sentiments that you shared 7 in those conversations, did those ever play into your 8 decision making? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And if -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 12 a good question. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 15 Q: And if it did, would that be an 16 improper use of discretion? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: You're -- you're going to have to -- 21 I'm -- I'm really having a hard time following that. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Could you repeat that question again 24 please. 25 Q: If you had made any decisions during
3211 the September the 4th and 6th based on the sentiments 2 that were expressed in your earlier conversations such as 3 the sentiment that these people are always getting 4 handouts, First Nations people. 5 Would that be an improper use of your 6 discretion? Would it now make your discretion unlawful 7 if you were doing it because you thought these people get 8 handouts? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 THE WITNESS: My dis -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 12 about the word "unlawful" but -- 13 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Sorry -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- perhaps 15 improper. 16 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: -- would it make it 17 improper? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: "Improper" 19 would be a better word. 20 THE WITNESS: I think you got to use the 21 discretion in -- in a situation because we have 22 discretion but you're using discretion as -- when I use 23 my discretion for what? I don't know what you want me to 24 use my discretion for. 25
3221 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 2 Q: Sorry, I'm just -- I'm talking 3 generally in any use of discretion. If -- if that use is 4 motivated by the sentiments you shared would that make 5 the action or the exercise of discretion improper? 6 A: I -- I don't know how to answer that, 7 I really don't. 8 Q: Okay. Let me ask you this, you're 9 familiar with the Police Code of Conduct? 10 A: Under the Police Services Act? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: I'm aware of it, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And -- and you're aware of 14 what's defined as disreputable conduct? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Just -- just to be 19 clear, Mr. Commissioner, is this -- is -- is what is 20 being referred to under the Code of Conduct and the 21 Police Services Act as discreditable conduct? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 23 Discreditable. 24 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Dis -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Is it -- is that what
3231 he's being referred to? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 3 that's what he's referring to. 4 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 7 Q: Are you -- are you aware of that? 8 A: I'm aware of discreditable conduct. 9 Q: Discreditable conduct. And -- and 10 you're aware that discreditable -- sorry, discreditable 11 conduct includes -- includes using profane, abusive, or 12 insulting language? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And you would agree that the 15 comments you made between September 4th and the 6th and - 16 - and 6th were insulting, weren't they? 17 A: They were inappropriate, yes. 18 Q: Sorry, they weren't insulting? 19 A: They -- they were inappropriate. 20 Q: Okay. But -- but I'm asking you not 21 only were they inappropriate, they were insulting to 22 First Nations people, correct? 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, this 24 Witness has been asked to characterize his comments and 25 he has done so.
3241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: What he's being asked-- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to do now is to 5 interpret -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the Police Services 8 Act and the Code of Conduct. I'm not sure it's going to 9 give you any assistance here. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 11 so. You've got your answer, he said they were 12 inappropriate. 13 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 16 Q: Generally speaking if comments were 17 insulting then that would be discreditable conduct? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If comments 19 were insulting? 20 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Insulting. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would 22 be discreditable conduct. 23 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Discreditable conduct. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've just 25 read --
3251 MS. KAREN JONES: He -- Mr. Commissioner, 2 again this is -- I'm -- I'm not sure it's going to be of 3 assistance to you -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Assume -- 5 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to have -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: -- this Witness 8 interpret or speak to the Code of Conduct, to try and 9 define terms -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assumed 11 you -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- in accordance with 13 that. 14 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay. And maybe I can 15 just ask him -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assumed 17 you were going to ask this Witness some very specific 18 questions and that would be appropriate but what you're 19 doing now doesn't seem to be very helpful, Mr. Mathai. 20 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Well, with respect, 21 Mr. Commissioner, what I -- what I was just trying to get 22 at was whether or not the comments made were of the 23 nature that would lead to misconduct and I can ask him 24 more directly whether he believes making comments like 25 that is misconduct if -- if that would be helpful but I -
3261 - I'm getting the feeling that it wouldn't. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: I think you're getting 3 the right feeling. It certainly isn't helpful and it -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 5 it's -- 6 MR. DONALD WORME: It -- isn't helpful 7 because I mean -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: -- it's really a legal 10 argument as to whether or not particular conduct -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. DONALD WORME: -- is -- is 13 discreditable or not within the meaning of -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 15 right. 16 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: I -- I'm not asking 17 him whether or not he believes it's illegal, I was just 18 asking him -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, you 20 are. That's exactly what you're asking him. 21 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: No, to be fair I was 22 just asking him whether or not he believes it was 23 misconduct. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 25 not interested in what he believes at this point.
3271 Just ask him what he said and what he did 2 or what he heard and ask him questions that he can answer 3 and then we'll move on. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. SUNIL MATHAI: 6 Q: The last area I'm going to talk about 7 or touch upon now is -- and again this leads into some of 8 the comments that you made and -- and you have apologized 9 for and said that they were inappropriate. 10 What I want to know is whether or not 11 these -- would you agree that these are sentiments that 12 were shared by other members of the OPP? 13 A: No, I wouldn't. 14 Q: You wouldn't agree with that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. And so you would say that you 17 were the exception to the general rule which is that the 18 other OPP officers were not being as insensitive in their 19 choice of words? 20 A: I can't tell you what the other 21 officers said or did, but those -- those comments I made 22 certainly don't reflect the attitude of the OPP or the 23 other officers. 24 Those comments were mine. 25 Q: So it's your testimony that there
3281 isn't a culture of insensitivity towards First Nation 2 people, at that time, in the OPP? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Let me ask you something. 5 When you were a member of the OPP during this time from 6 September 4th to 6th, did you hear comments to the -- 7 comments stating that what would be wrong with purifying 8 the Indian race? 9 A: Absolutely not. 10 Q: Okay. Did you ever hear of people 11 describing or using in their -- in their notes when 12 they're identifying First nations people, did you ever 13 hear them characterize as big, fat Indian or big, fat 14 Native? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Are you familiar with the reference 21 of Black Donnelly? 22 A: Of what? 23 Q: The Black Donnelly, I believe it is. 24 A: No. 25 Q: No, you're not referred to that,
3291 okay. That's fine. 2 And have -- did you hear any -- any 3 statements to the effect of, don't buy a house near the 4 Indians. They'll come over and take it over for you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Anything to the effect of, real 7 estate value has dropped drastically when Indians come -- 8 come in? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Anything to the effect of, I don't 11 give a -- a shit about the stupid, fucking Indians? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Generally speaking, if those 14 comments were being made, you would agree that it would 15 show some insens -- insensitivity amongst various members 16 of the OPP officers? 17 A: I never heard comments like that. 18 Q: Okay. But if you had heard -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 20 never heard them and that's good enough. 21 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: That's as far -- okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sure 23 you're going to make a submission or somebody is on 24 behalf of your party but, I will listen to when the time 25 comes.
3301 MR. SUNIL MATHAI: Okay, thank you. 2 Those are all the questions I have, thank you, Sergeant 3 Huntley. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 Ms. Jones, how long do you think you might 8 be? I don't ask you at the beginning, because I know you 9 can't say. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 11 expect to be very brief. I would hope ten (10) minutes 12 or less. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: Officer, could you please turn to Tab 17 24 of the book of documents in front of you. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And I had four (4) questions I want 22 to ask you, just to clarify or see if we can understand 23 better what is in, excuse me, the testimony you gave. 24 This is Exhibit P-1440 and it's evidence 25 that was given, I believe, in Cecil Bernard George trial.
3311 First of all, can I ask you to turn to 2 page 209 -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 209? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- of that document. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you 6 say -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: 209, yeah. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: And you were asked a question at the 13 trial and this is just a briefly summarize what's on that 14 page, just so you have some context, 'cause I'm not sure 15 if you've had a chance to go through it. 16 Is it -- it talks about, let me ask you 17 over the course of this day there's been a -- a huge 18 build up of police in the area. 19 They're referring to the events of 20 September the 6th, just so you're clear about that. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And you talk about that there were 23 four (4) ERT teams there during the incident, and that 24 was the result of the incidents on the 5th. 25 And the question is asked of you:
3321 "So the point is this. There was a lot 2 of very obvious police activity going 3 on in that community all day long?" 4 The answer is: 5 "Yes. 6 "Q: Were you personally aware of any 7 attention it had attracted amongst the 8 people in the local community?" 9 And your answer was: 10 "I had a lot of really positive 11 comments from my guys on the 12 checkpoints with the Natives from 13 Kettle and Stony Point. We had a lot 14 of positive conversations with them, 15 even some people in the Army Camp 16 living in the Army Camp were out 17 talking to my people at checkpoints and 18 it wasn't confrontational. It was very 19 relaxed and a matter -- as a matter of 20 fact my people were being warned about 21 the people who were in Ipperwash." 22 And I wanted to ask you about that answer. 23 First of all when you talked about -- in your evidence 24 about having positive comments from your guys who had had 25 contact with Natives from Kettle and Stony Point, can you
3331 help us understand what you were referring to? 2 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: If I might -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 4 Johnson? 5 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I believe that -- 6 I'm sorry, this caught me by surprise. I believe that 7 during the trial this was identified as being hearsay and 8 there were not -- understood that hearsay is not as big 9 an issue here but if he's going to respond to this I 10 first would like to know specific officers who he heard 11 these comments from. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She's just 13 quoting a piece of evidence from a transcript. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 18 I'm sorry, has there been an exchange there? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: The Court indicates 23 at the bottom of 209 this whole line of questioning is 24 going beyond detail. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I
3341 understand that, I haven't read this all I'm reading it 2 now with you but it may have been at the trial. It had 3 no bearing on the charge before the Court. 4 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine, I 5 simply think that if she's going to ask about comments 6 that were heard that they be attributed to specific 7 officers, not just general comments that -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 9 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: -- were out there 10 someplace. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 12 Jones? 13 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Maybe -- maybe I 14 can ask my questions -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and we'll see what 17 the answers are? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Sorry for the interruption. You 25 talked about having really positive comments from your
3351 guys on the checkpoints. 2 Can you tell us what you were referring 3 to? 4 A: That was specifically Mark Cloes -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- who worked the checkpoint -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- and he was -- 9 Q: And what did -- what -- what were you 10 referring to from Mark Cloes? 11 A: On the checkpoint he was -- he spoke 12 -- told me he spoke to a number of people and even people 13 from inside Camp Ipperwash that -- it was very positive. 14 I don't remember the exact comments now or -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- but... 17 Q: Okay. If you could turn to page 190? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And again just -- just to move things 22 along this is the section in your evidence when you were 23 being asked about the confrontation on the night of 24 September the 6th in the sandy parking lot and you were 25 answering questions that were asking you about things
3361 that were being thrown at you by the occupiers while you 2 were in the sandy parking lot. 3 And what I wanted to ask you about is 4 partway down on page 190 there's a question: 5 "What?" 6 And then you answer: 7 "I couldn't tell you what was being 8 thrown." 9 But partway down that -- 10 A: I'm sorry, did you say page 190? 11 Q: Page 190, that's right. 12 A: Okay. I'm on the wrong page. 13 Q: Okay. Partway down that paragraph 14 you were talking -- you -- you say: 15 "The next thing I remember hitting, I 16 couldn't full -- I wasn't fully aware 17 that things were coming at us because 18 we couldn't see. It was just a bunch 19 of shadows, so we were at a real 20 disadvantage at seeing what was coming 21 at us. 22 The next thing I heard or -- I guess 23 sprayed on my feet was something, after 24 it hit one of the guys on my team in 25 the helmet, so it must have hit him on
3371 the helmet and then I felt it. 2 It must have been a bottle or something 3 sprayed at my feet, and then I 4 confirmed that person who got hit was 5 okay and the officer confirmed that he 6 was okay." 7 Can you help us out at all with what you 8 saw in terms of what was -- of that comment? 9 A: That particular comment. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: I -- I don't know if I heard it hit - 12 - hit his helmet. But I was aware somebody got hit and - 13 - and then I -- I felt what felt like shards, broken 14 bottle spray at my feet. 15 So it wasn't like one (1) object that -- 16 that came down -- 17 Q: Oh, I see. 18 A: -- on my feet. It was -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And then I checked to make sure 21 everybody was okay and -- 22 Q: Okay. So, do I take it then it was 23 something that -- it looked or seemed like glass that had 24 been thrown? 25 A: I assumed -- I assumed it was a
3381 bottle. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I wanted to ask you a little bit 7 about evidence that you gave, starting on page 208. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And you were asked a question. 12 You'll see close to the bottom of page 208: 13 "Based on what you heard on the radio, 14 it seems that they were in a position 15 to observe whatever was going on in 16 that parking lot area before you got 17 down there and could see it with your 18 own eyes." 19 And the answer is: 20 "Well, when they went out [and this is 21 involving the TRU officers, sorry, just 22 to be clear what you're referring to] 23 they were having difficulty getting 24 into position because there was a 25 number of, we can call them protesters,
3391 out in the bush, so that the TRU team 2 outside of the park in the bush moving 3 around on the road couldn't get into 4 position until we started moving out of 5 the parking lot back -- lot back at the 6 TOC. 7 At that point in time, the people ran 8 back towards the parking lot and I 9 understand they were allowed to get 10 into position. 11 And that's just something from being 12 there I understood. Nobody told me 13 that directly." 14 And I wanted to ask you, in terms of -- 15 was one (1) of the reasons or a reason as you understood 16 it, when you left the TOC on the night of September the 17 6th with the CMU, was -- was a reason given or did you 18 understand one of the reasons you were going out was to 19 see if that would act as a diversion or a distraction so 20 that TRU members could get into position? 21 A: Well, we were going -- my 22 understanding was we were going down to the parking lot. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: And by doing that, it would have the 25 benefit of allowing the TRU members to get into position
3401 because the people were out in the -- preventing them 2 from getting into position would go back to the Park. 3 Q: Okay. You were asked just a -- some 4 -- some questions about communication with the occupiers 5 in the sandy parking lot. 6 You were asked a question about a bull 7 horn or having a bull horn, and I listened to your answer 8 and was it your view that your presence, or the presence 9 of the CMU coming down the road was sufficient to have 10 the occupiers go back into the Park from the sandy 11 parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You were -- you've also described a 14 situation as I understand, at that point in time, where 15 there's yelling coming from the Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: At some point in time, at or about 18 that time, there are projectiles being thrown at you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: In your view -- sorry, let me go 21 back. Not in your view, but in accordance with what you 22 knew from the CMU tactics or standard operating 23 procedures, would it be common in a circumstance where 24 there was that kind of yelling going on, you said people 25 had clubs in their hand, that kind of that, would it be
3411 common to stop and try and talk? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And why is that? 4 A: Well, they're an aggressive crowd, 5 they're an assaultive crowd and it would be difficult to 6 talk to them -- 7 Q: Okay. You -- 8 A: -- without putting your personal 9 safety at risk. 10 Q: Okay. Is there -- is -- did you have 11 an understanding from your CMU training about what kind 12 of things are thought to be effective when you're dealing 13 with a hostile and aggressive crowd? What kinds of 14 manoeuvres or tactics -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- would you be trained to employ in 17 a circumstance like that? 18 A: First, our presence. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: Shield chatter -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- would -- would be another tactic. 23 Moving into a cordon formation is another tactic and just 24 moving -- moving them out, trying to -- trying to get the 25 leaders out of the -- the crowd if that's possible.
3421 Those are all tactics that we'd -- we would use. 2 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 3 questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Ms. Jones. Mr. Worme? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I have no questions by 7 way of re-examination but I wish to extend thanks to 8 Sergeant Huntley for his attendance here and his 9 testimony. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 11 repeat that as well. Thank you very much for coming and 12 giving us the benefit of your evidence. Thank you, sir. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 14 15 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are we done 18 for the day? 19 MR. DONALD WORME: That is it, 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're done 22 for the day? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: I would hope so. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're done 25 for the week and we reconvene on May the 8th at ten
3431 o'clock. 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 all very much. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 adjourned until Monday, May the 8th, at 10:00 a.m. 7 8 --- Upon adjourning at 4:19 p.m. 9 10 11 Certified Correct 12 13 14 15 16 ________________________ 17 Carol Geehan 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25