1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 27th, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) (np) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 17 18 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) (np) 24 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 25 Michelle Pong )


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 4 Julian Roy ) (np) 5 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 6 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 7 8 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 9 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 10 11 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 12 Matthew Horner ) (np) 13 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 14 15 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 16 Craig Mills ) (np) 17 Erin Tully ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 25


1 LIST OF APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kelly Graham ) Malcolm Gilpin, Mark Watt, 4 Jill Sampson ) John Tedball, Cesare 5 DiCesare and Robert Kenneth 6 Scott 7 Ian Dantzer ) Dr. Marr and Dr. Saettler 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 7 4 5 ELIZABETH SAETTLER, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 28 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 33 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 37 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 48 11 12 MALCOLM GILPIN, Sworn 13 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 51 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 159 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 204 16 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 212 17 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 239 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 249 19 20 ROBERT KENNETH SCOTT, Sworn: 21 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 266 22 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 300 23 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 305 24 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 309 25 Certificate of Transcript 318


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-370(a) Digital Map (hard copy) of Map No. 2 79 4 P-370(b) Electronic map of Map No. 2 79 5 P-371 Document No. 5000471 Ambulance incident 6 report 85 7 P-372 Document 5000472 85 8 P-373 Document 5000195 CACC staff involved 9 (standby request of September 11/'95 149 10 P-374 Document 2000861 OPP logs October 07/'95 11 07:58 hours to 12:51 hours. 153 12 P-375 Ambulance call report re: Nick Cottrelle 13 September 06/'95 documented by C. 14 DiCesare 159 15 P-376 Document 1002288 anticipated evidence of 16 Malcom Gilpin September 22/'95 interview 17 with investigators bob Muir and Jim 18 Kennedy SIU 164 19 P-377 Picture of Strathroy Middlesex General 20 Hospital showing Emergency entrance 248 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everybody. 10 11 ELIZABETH SAETTLER, Resumed 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 morning, Doctor. 15 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Orkin...? 18 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Quick at the mike this 19 morning, Commissioner. Commissioner, on reflection over 20 night and consultation with our clients -- my client, 21 we're going to be yielding to our other colleagues. 22 We have no questions for this Witness. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 24 because I called you Mr. Rosenthal, is it? 25 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Not at all. Not at


1 all. No, that is indeed a compliment to call me Mr. 2 Rosenthal. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 4 Rosenthal...? 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That is indeed a 6 compliment from Mr. Orkin to say that he was complimented 7 by calling Mr. -- being called Mr. Rosenthal. 8 Good morning, Mr. Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Good morning, Doctor. 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: My name is Mr. Rosenthal, Peter 16 Rosenthal. I am Counsel to Aazhoodena and George Family 17 Group, a -- a group of Stoney Point People, First Nations 18 People. 19 In light of your time constraints I'm 20 going to be much more brief than I otherwise would. You 21 obviously have a lot of information to offer us but with 22 our serious time constraints, unfortunately. 23 Now, with respect to Cecil Bernard George, 24 with respect to the forearm injury you told us yesterday 25 that you looked at those injuries as being likely the


1 result of being struck while attempting to protect his 2 head or -- from blows. 3 And then I believe in -- in one of your 4 earlier interviews you said something to the effect of 5 the injury to the ulna aspect of the right arm is typical 6 of trying to ward off blows; is that correct? 7 A: That is correct. 8 Q: Now, Dr. Marr told us that he was 9 tender diffusely over the distal forearm from halfway 10 down towards the wrist, abrasion marks and tenderness; do 11 -- do you agree with that assessment? 12 A: Yes, but I would add, as I recall, 13 there was visible bruising in addition to abrasions. 14 Q: Yes. Visible bruising and abrasions 15 in -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- addition, yes. But -- now, with 18 respect to the diffuse -- the use of the word "diffuse," 19 Dr. Marr explained to us that that meant it was in a 20 widespread area. 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Now, given that, if it was as a 23 result of ward of blows that he received those injuries, 24 would you agree that it suggests that there were a fair 25 number of blows that he warded off with that forearm?


1 A: Yes. Yes, I would agree. 2 Q: Not just one (1) or two (2) but a -- 3 a fairly large number? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And, it would be hard to estimate the 6 exact number I presume; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, you told us yesterday that while 9 Mr. Cecil Bernard George was in the ambulance he might 10 have a transient drop in blood pressure due to the 11 abdominal injuries or other factors; is that correct? 12 A: Are you asking me if that was the 13 information received or whether that was possible? 14 Q: I -- I believe what you said 15 yesterday was to the effect that: 16 "I was attuned to the idea that he 17 might have had a transient drop in 18 pressure, partly because of those 19 injuries in his abdomen." 20 So, is that -- 21 A: I can't -- 22 Q: -- that -- that could have occurred, 23 not that you were informed of that, but it's your 24 estimate that that could have occurred; is that correct? 25 A: Well, we were informed that he might


1 have had a loss of vital signs during transport. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And, because he had been kicked in 4 the upper abdomen, I thought that might be possible as a 5 consequence of injuries to the liver or spleen. 6 Q: Yes, but even if it hadn't resulted 7 in the heart stoppage, could it have resulted in a 8 lowering of blood pressure so that the pulse would be 9 very weak and hard to detect? 10 A: It -- it's possible, but it would be 11 unlikely for the blood pressure to then spontaneously 12 improve. 13 Q: I see. Okay, thank you. 14 Now, regarding Mr. Cottrelle, and I'm 15 moving along very quickly, unfortunately. 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: I understand that -- that he use the 18 word, "vehicle" to you according to one (1) of your 19 earlier statements in describing what he was in at some 20 point; is that correct? 21 Do you recollect that or should I turn you 22 to it? 23 A: I -- I don't have -- I don't have a 24 direct recollection of which word he used -- 25 Q: Yeah. No -- no, we all -- we all


1 recognize that it's ten (10) years ago and -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- it's very difficult to remember -- 4 A: I have used the word, "vehicle," and 5 "car," I think. 6 Q: -- but if you could turn to your -- 7 your Tab 13 in page 8 of that document. 8 A: Hmm hmm, right. 9 Q: And, with your indulgence, Mr. 10 Commissioner, I'm going to get my Tab 13 as well. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Perhaps I could say a word while 15 you're getting ready. I appreciate your efforts to 16 ensure that I can be on my plane to Winnipeg today -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- but I wouldn't wish that to 19 constrain your questions or to -- to limit the amount of 20 information that I can provide for you, so please proceed 21 as you need to. 22 Q: Thank you Doctor. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: If we could turn to page 8 of Tab 13? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Tab 13? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It's -- sorry? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What are you 6 looking at, is it the audio -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Tab 13 of Dr. -- 8 statement -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of Dr. -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- at page 8. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 12 September 29th/'95; is that the document? 13 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just 16 wondering what document you're looking at. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It's an interview 18 of... 19 THE WITNESS: The OPP interview of the 20 29th. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I just 22 want to make sure we're on the same one. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Dr. Saettler 24 conducted on the 29th of September 1995. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.


1 On page 8 of that interview. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: On page 8 of that document. Just to 5 refresh your memory, Doctor, if you could look 6 approximately a quarter of the way up from the bottom, 7 you're talking about Nick Cottrelle and he talked about 8 Mr. George and then -- then you say: 9 "With relationship to his own injuries 10 he was less certain as to what 11 happened. He told me that he was 12 inside a vehicle and he heard shots 13 fired." 14 Does that refresh your memory? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So, this is what you reported 17 relatively soon after the event -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- as opposed to ten (10) years after 20 the event; is that correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: So, we -- we can take it it that that 23 was likely accurate that he used the word, "vehicle." 24 A: Well, in another of my statements I 25 appear to have used the word, "car" and...


1 Q: I see, or -- okay. 2 A: So, I'm -- I'm not sure, really. 3 Q: So, he might have used either word. 4 A: I can't tell you. 5 Q: Well, I suggested Dr. Marr yesterday 6 indicated she wrote down, "car" also. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: I suggested to her the possibility 9 that if he had said, "vehicle," -- 10 A: She might have... 11 Q: -- she might have assumed, "car" and 12 written, "car." 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Is that fair? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, here you did report the word, 17 "vehicle." We now know that he was in a bus, in fact, 18 so... 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Thank you. Now, it's generally, as 21 we've heard, I believe, from you and from Dr. Marr, very 22 useful for Emergency Room personnel to know about the 23 cause of an injury as they begin to treat that injury, 24 right? 25 A: Right.


1 Q: And, also it would be very useful to 2 know the history of the patient, both enroute to 3 hospital, whether he was unconscious, not unconscious and 4 so on, right? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And also the history of the patient 7 in other respects; is she or he allergic to penicillin? 8 All sorts of questions like that might arise; is that 9 fair? 10 A: That's true. 11 Q: Now we've had some evidence in these 12 proceedings that with respect to all three (3) of the 13 patients that you dealt with on that evening in the 14 emergency room, there was some interference in the 15 possibility of information getting to the emergency room. 16 And, in particular, with respect to the 17 people who brought Dudley George into the emergency room, 18 his brother Pierre and his sister Carolyn, we've had 19 evidence that they were arrested upon arriving in the 20 parking lot outside the hospital, charged with attempted 21 murder, released the next day because there was no basis 22 for those charges, but that they were apprehended by the 23 police before Dudley George was brought into hospital. 24 Now, given that, would you agree that it 25 would be useful for future, and as you know, the


1 Commissioner is concerned not only about what happened in 2 the past but about making recommendations for the future, 3 that police officers be informed that it's important that 4 information about a patient get to the emergency room 5 personnel when a person is being brought to that 6 emergency room, and they should take steps to ensure that 7 information is given to those people. 8 A: It has been my experience in dealing 9 with the police and in the Emerg. with trauma patients 10 that they are aware of that in general, and usually do 11 present information as best they can to help us in our 12 efforts. 13 Certainly, if they are unaware of that, 14 that would be helpful to make them aware, but my 15 experience has been that it is usual for the police to 16 come into the emergency room to provide whatever 17 information they have about the victim of whatever trauma 18 has occurred. 19 Q: Yes, but in this case and in all 20 three (3) cases there is evidence suggesting that they 21 interfered with the flow of information rather than 22 assisted the flow. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 24 Jackson...? 25 OBJ MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning,


1 Mr. Commissioner. I anticipate you know what my 2 objection's going to be. 3 In my respectful submission, that's not 4 what the evidence has been to date. Indeed, yesterday it 5 was quite clear from Dr. Marr that it was quite the 6 contrary. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 8 think there's any evidence of interference. Is that what 9 you're saying, Ms. Jackson? There's no -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, I 11 tried to abbreviate what I did at the beginning of 12 yesterday, but perhaps I'll go over the evidence if 13 necessary, and I'm happy to do so -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- with respect to 16 each of the three (3). 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can 18 abbreviate it as long as it's accurate -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yeah. Well, okay, 20 with respect to Mr. Cotrelle, we have evidence that his 21 mother attempted to accompany him to the hospital. His 22 mother, presumably, would be someone who would know 23 something about his history, and she was prevented from 24 so doing and she was not given any assistance by officers 25 on the scene to attend to the hospital in any way.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it 2 looks like we're going to have a bit of a discussion 3 here. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: My 5 understanding, Mr. Commissioner, is that it was the 6 ambulance attendant who didn't want for -- for medical 7 reasons to have Gina George in the back of the ambulance. 8 It had nothing to do with the police and, indeed, the 9 ambulance attendants from whom we've heard, confirmed 10 that the police did nothing to impede their ability to 11 treat any of the patients. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, Mr. 13 Commissioner, we had evidence that both officers and 14 ambulance took that position, and it certainly would have 15 been possible for officers to send Gina George there in a 16 different car, if it was a question of evidence. 17 But perhaps we don't need to go into -- 18 argue about the details now in front of this Witness. 19 I just -- I just wanted to suggest that if 20 -- perhaps I could rephrase it more hypothetically. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: If -- if the Commissioner -- it will 24 be, as you can tell, we're going to be arguing about what 25 the details of the evidence mean in this case, and we'll


1 be doing that six (6) or eight (8) or ten (10) months 2 from now when we're making final submissions and you 3 won't need to be concerned with that. 4 You won't need to be concerned with that, 5 but if there is evidence suggesting that the police did 6 not take steps to ensure the information be appropriately 7 forwarded to emergency personnel, would you agree that it 8 might be useful to make a recommendation that in future 9 they do so? 10 A: If that is shown, then I would agree. 11 Q: Thank you. Now, you told us 12 yesterday that you heard, you don't recall now how and 13 what the basis of the rumours were, but that there were 14 so many police in the hospital because they were 15 concerned about some disruption by First Nations people. 16 Is that -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- correct? 19 A: That is. 20 Q: But, we had evidence from Dr. Marr 21 that she specifically was told the words to that effect 22 by a police officer, so that might have been one of the 23 sources of that information, and perhaps we can 24 conjecture that officers might have told other people 25 about --


1 A: Yeah. Information like that would 2 spread pretty quickly through our little hospital. 3 Q: Yes. You yourself were not told that 4 directly by a police officer? 5 A: No. 6 Q: But, you heard it from several other 7 people; is that correct? 8 A: I think so, yes. 9 Q: Now, am I correct in inferring that 10 that led to a rather tense atmosphere in the hospital, 11 that notion that you might be attacked? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that kind of tension does not 14 assist people in providing medical care; is that fair to 15 say? 16 A: No. In fact, as -- as I recall, 17 later in the day the CEO of the hospital requested that 18 police presence be reduced or eliminated because, in 19 fact, he felt it was interfering with the functioning of 20 the hospital. 21 Q: I see. And what -- what happened as 22 a result of that request? 23 A: The -- the police disappeared. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: But I can't -- I can't testify to


1 that directly because I was in the operating room and 2 then gone to the airport, so -- 3 Q: I see, yes. So there was a request 4 that the police presence be lessened at least, and there 5 was some response to that -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- is your understanding? 8 A: As I understand it, yes. 9 Q: Now, with respect to -- to that 10 aspect, is there any recommendation that you would 11 suggest, that the Commissioner might make? 12 A: You're pressing me for 13 recommendations and I'm -- I'm a little uncomfortable 14 with that. I felt at the time that -- I felt at the time 15 that that degree of police presence was excessive and, as 16 I've said, somewhat intimidating. And I -- I have not 17 encountered that sort of -- that sort of police presence 18 in the hospital on any other occasion. 19 When there's a prisoner or someone charged 20 with a crime who's -- who's brought in with trauma or any 21 other illness, you know, they may be shackled, there may 22 be an officer at their door, but there isn't -- there 23 aren't people walking around in body armour and -- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- patrolling the halls sort of


1 thing. It was a very strange situation. 2 Q: Thank you. Well, perhaps we can deal 3 with formulating a recommendation ourselves without your 4 assistance, but thank you for your efforts. 5 Now, you told us at the end of yesterday 6 that -- to the effect that if police are aware of the 7 possibility of serious injury, you would want some prior 8 warning both for hospitals and also with respect to 9 paramedics being available, and you in particular 10 referred to the possibility of paramedics being available 11 who have the capacity to intro -- introduce intravenous 12 lines and intubate patients as required. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Now, so would you agree that it would 15 be a useful recommendation that such paramedics, such 16 advanced -- advancedly trained paramedics with 17 appropriate equipment be available in this area at least 18 on an emergency basis of that type? 19 A: I think if they're was anticipation 20 of gunshot injuries, that the only prospect of -- of 21 providing resuscitation to those types of patients with 22 those injuries is to have paramedics available who can 23 start intravenous and intubate, provide fluid 24 resuscitation almost at the scene or soon after. 25 Q: Yes. And if such paramedics had been


1 available then, in the case of somebody like, Dudley 2 George, for example, presumably they -- they would have 3 done the stabilization right at the scene to the best of 4 their ability -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- and then go on to a trauma centre, 7 such as at London Hospital, to -- where there was the 8 only real prospect of repairing his wounds; is that fair? 9 A: That is my opinion, yeah. 10 Q: Thank you. And then, related to 11 that, I gather that you would recommend that if police 12 are aware of the potential for -- of an incident like 13 this, that they should also inform the local hospital 14 that they might be receiving such patients, to -- to be 15 ready and -- well, let me stop there. 16 In particular, in this case, it would have 17 been useful if Strathroy Hospital had been notified a 18 couple hours earlier that there was this potential; is 19 that fair? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I'm not sure I can -- I can agree to 24 that unequivocally. I -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- am not sure what sort of 2 differences in the setup at Strathroy would have -- would 3 have been helpful in that case. I guess one could have 4 asked a surgeon to be there on standby. 5 Q: Yes. A vascular surgeon might have 6 then been on standby? 7 A: There is no vascular surgeon attached 8 to -- 9 Q: There isn't one in any event. 10 A: -- to Strathroy Hospital. 11 Q: But, I think, you've told us that it 12 was fortuitous that you happened to be in the hospital 13 doing paper work? 14 A: Yes, entirely. 15 Q: So, at least there could have been -- 16 it would not have been fortuitous that there be a second 17 or third doctor present if -- if the hospital had been 18 informed that there might well be some serious -- several 19 serious casualties coming in? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: Isn't that fair? 22 A: Yes, I -- I think that is done, at 23 least in other -- other situations where a mass, sort of, 24 trauma is anticipated. 25 For instance, I have a friend who works in


1 Bridgewater, Nova Scotia and when the Swiss Air flight 2 went down they were warned that there might be multiple 3 serious casualties coming to them and they were able to 4 prepare to some extent. 5 Q: Yes, so -- so -- 6 A: So, I think that would be appropriate 7 if -- if they had an expectation of multiple injuries or 8 serious injuries. 9 Q: Yes. So -- so, you're reluctance to 10 -- to answer affirmatively at the beginning of my 11 question in this area, I gather, was due to the fact that 12 the capacity of Strathroy Hospital, even upon warning 13 would be rather limited; is that -- is that fair? 14 A: Yeah, I wouldn't like to leave the 15 impression that -- that Dr. Marr or anyone else 16 associated with Strathroy Hospital had failed to make 17 appropriate -- 18 Q: Oh. 19 A: -- preparations for this sort of 20 trauma because that -- 21 Q: No, certainly. 22 A: -- that isn't my feeling. 23 Q: Certainly, I didn't intend any such 24 implication from the question. But -- but it would have 25 been easier, presumably, on Dr. Marr and you, also, if


1 you had had a couple of hours to anticipate this 2 possibility; is that fair? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Thank you very much, Doctor. Given 5 time constraints those -- those are all my questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. Rosenthal. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 14 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. 15 Good morning, Dr. Saettler. 16 A: Good morning. 17 Q: My name is Anthony Ross and I 18 represent the occupiers of Aazhoodena, which was once 19 called the Army Camp. 20 And, my questions are very few and relate 21 only to police conduct in the hospital. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: I take it, Dr. Saettler, that you 24 were not involved in the intake of Nicholus Cottrelle? 25 A: No, the patients were all in the


1 trauma room when I arrived. 2 Q: Thank you. And, I take it that you 3 were not advised that Nicholus Cottrelle was under 4 arrest, were you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And if, in fact, there is evidence 7 that Constable Boon accompanied Nicholus Cottrelle to the 8 Strathroy Hospital and if, in fact, Constable Boon did 9 accompany Nicholus Cottrelle to the hospital and Nicholus 10 did not have a parent present, I take it that you would 11 expect Constable Boon to really step up and give some 12 indication of why Nicholus Cottrelle is there? 13 A: That seems a reasonable expectation, 14 yes. 15 Q: And, it's not inconsistent with past 16 police practises with respect to people that they 17 accompany to the hospital? 18 A: That's true. 19 Q: Yes. And, the police that were in 20 the hospital, is it fair to say that there were quite a 21 number of police at the hospital? 22 A: I actually don't have recollection of 23 police in the hospital on the night -- during the night 24 of the resuscitation and the assessment of injuries in 25 Emerg.; either they weren't in the Emerg. per se, or I


1 was just focussed on other aspects of what was happening. 2 It was the following day that I really felt there was a - 3 - a lot of police presence. 4 Q: And, I take it that the police in the 5 hospital, apart from their body armour, they also had 6 their own sidearms? 7 A: I -- I didn't -- I don't have direct 8 recall; I expect they did. 9 Q: Okay, that's fine. And, I take it 10 that you were not involved in the discharge of Nicholus 11 Cottrelle or, indeed, any of the -- neither -- Cecil 12 Bernard George? 13 A: No, neither one. 14 Q: Now, in the Will-Say, there's a 15 statement here which is a broad general statement I'll 16 read to you, with respect to yourself: 17 "She felt that the prominent police 18 presence in the hospital was 19 intimidating to staff --" 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Just a minute Mr. 21 Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm -- I'm just -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 25 what --


1 MR. DONALD WORME: -- a little bit 2 troubled by -- by my Friend's reference to the Will-Say. 3 I think that we have specific -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: -- understandings with 6 respect to these documents and my preference would be if 7 -- if Mr. Ross would avoid that it would certainly avoid, 8 I think, other difficulties. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you put 10 the question without referring -- 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No -- no problem. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to the 13 Will Say. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No problem. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: Is it fair to say, Dr. Saettler, that 18 you found the police presence in the hospital 19 intimidating to staff? 20 A: Yes, it is fair. 21 Q: And it created a situation that the 22 hospital was in danger and pretty much under siege? 23 A: That, I don't know, I didn't take 24 that terribly seriously. I -- I thought that was -- I 25 thought that was overreaction and sort of fear-mongering


1 on the part of the police to justify their presence 2 there. But the simple presence of people in -- who are 3 armed and in that sort of gear I found, as I said before, 4 distracting and somewhat intimidating. 5 Q: Thank you. And finally, Dr. 6 Saettler, there is also evidence that when Mr. Cottrelle 7 was in his room upstairs, that police officers attended 8 to swab his -- his hands for the purpose of trying to 9 find gunshot residue. 10 Did any police ask permission of you to 11 deal with your patient? 12 A: No. I believe at the time both those 13 -- or at least Nick Cottrelle was officially under the 14 care of Dr. Marr, although I was listed as the consultant 15 surgeon. They did not ask permission of me. 16 Q: Very good. Thank you kindly. Those 17 are my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 One second. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Ms. 24 Andrea Tuck-Jackson...? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 4 Q: Good morning, Dr. Saettler. 5 A: Good morning. 6 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm 7 going to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 8 As I understand your evidence, in 9 retrospect, having regard to the various medical outcomes 10 that followed that evening, you are satisfied that the 11 hospital was sufficiently prepared to deal with the 12 patients that arrived, from a medical perspective? 13 A: Well, with regard to Cecil George, I 14 think that in the light of what happened ultimately, we 15 had adequate resources to manage his care and to assess 16 him. 17 It would have -- if he -- if he had not 18 improved in that way, we certainly were ill-equipped to 19 assess his injuries further, that is we don't have access 20 to CT scan of the brain. Or if his abdominal injuries 21 had been more serious, we -- we would have -- well, we -- 22 we could have adequately managed those, but the 23 neurologic injury, I felt -- I felt relieved that he had 24 improved sufficiently and -- and didn't require a CT. 25 Q: So, the plan, I gather, is that if he


1 had not improved, is that you would have ensured that he 2 was stable and then he would have been transferred -- 3 A: To London. 4 Q: -- to a different hospital? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. I want to focus on the 7 issue of preparedness because I gather key is from the 8 perspective of doctors, medical and nursing staff at a 9 hospital. The issue is they need notice; it doesn't 10 matter from who, they just need notice as to what types 11 of injuries could be enroute. 12 A: I feel a little uncomfortable 13 addressing these issues, and I will if you -- if you 14 think it's appropriate, but I'm not the person who 15 usually is the Emerg. I don't usually triage patients in 16 Emerg. or make assessments as to how prepared we are for 17 incoming -- incoming injuries. 18 I'm called -- the surgeon is called 19 generally by the Emerg. physician or alerted once those 20 decisions have been made and that information has been 21 gathered. So, I do feel a little uncomfortable saying 22 how much information is needed and how it should be 23 provided. 24 Q: Thank you. You've actually 25 anticipated some of my questions, which is -- is


1 obviously intending no disrespect, but your area of 2 expertise, based on experience and training, is not on 3 the issue of emergency preparedness, it's surgery? 4 A: Yes, and the surgical response to 5 trauma. 6 Q: Of course. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I understand. 9 A: That is correct. 10 Q: But, it's not specifically on the 11 issue of co-ordinating -- 12 A: That's true. 13 Q: -- emergency services? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: All right. Thank you. You indicated 16 some concern about the presence of police on, in 17 particular, September the 7th -- 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: -- during the day? And from what I 20 understand from what you've told us, you didn't have any 21 direct contact with any of the officers on the ground 22 about their concerns? 23 A: On the ground, meaning? 24 Q: At the hospital. 25 A: I see. No.


1 Q: And I trust also you wouldn't have 2 had any contact with any of the more senior officers who 3 perhaps weren't on the ground -- 4 A: That's certainly true. 5 Q: -- but who may have been providing 6 information to the officers on the ground? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: So, you weren't aware of whatever 9 information that they had that may reasonably have been 10 concerned -- of concern to them? 11 A: Other than hearing that rumour that 12 they were concerned about the hospital coming under 13 attack from -- by the First Nations people. 14 Q: I understand that, and quite frankly, 15 no one's interested in rumour, it's not a particularly 16 helpful -- 17 A: I understand -- 18 Q: -- thing. 19 A: -- that. That's correct. 20 Q: My point is that you didn't have any 21 hard information -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- from the police -- 24 A: That's -- 25 Q: -- as to what was informing their


1 decision to have a presence at the hospital? 2 A: No, and I certainly look forward to 3 hearing in future what informed their decisions 4 throughout this episode. 5 Q: No doubt. And I anticipate you're 6 going to hear an awful lot about that. 7 You'd also indicated that you'd never 8 experienced the presence of the officers in this fashion 9 before? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Would it be fair to say that 12 similarly, you've never experienced a situation where you 13 had at least one (1) gunshot injury arising from a 14 confrontation between police and First Nations occupiers? 15 A: That's true. 16 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 17 questions, Doctor. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 Ms. Jones...? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Good morning, Doctor. 25 A: Good morning.


1 Q: My name's Karen Jones and I'm one of 2 the lawyers for the Ontario Provincial Police 3 Association. 4 Doctor, I just wanted to follow up on some 5 comments that you had made in your evidence yesterday 6 about getting information and how that might affect how 7 you'd treat someone. 8 And you were talking specifically about in 9 relation to Mr. George that if you had information about 10 loss of consciousness or vital signs, that kind of thing, 11 that that would help direct the length of your 12 resuscitative efforts if, indeed, you made them. 13 But, you qualified that by saying if you 14 got that information from a reliable historian, and I 15 wondered if you could explain what you mean by a, 16 "reliable historian"? 17 A: Well, I -- I understand that there 18 has been -- that statements have been made indicating 19 that Mr. -- that Mr. Dudley George, I assume you're 20 referring to him -- 21 Q: Yes, I am, yes I am. 22 A: -- may have been conscious to some 23 extent, even on arrival at the emergency department and 24 in the context of his -- the observed physical findings, 25 I would -- I would have trouble accepting that as


1 reliable evidence -- 2 Q: Sure. 3 A: -- a reliable history. But, I guess 4 there are different levels of usefulness of people's 5 observations. If you have a trained paramedic, you're 6 going to get a lot of useful information about vital 7 signs and so on -- 8 Q: Because it would be information that 9 you would feel would be -- 10 A: Was helpful. 11 Q: -- taken by someone who was trained 12 in what they were doing and who was able, for example, to 13 take -- 14 A: Possibly, but I -- 15 Q: -- measurements -- 16 A: -- think that family members could 17 provide, like, the people who transported Dudley George 18 could likely have told us the time of his -- roughly the 19 time of his gunshot injury -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- the fact that there had been no 22 other injuries prior to, or in association with that, 23 just a single gunshot as far as they knew. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: And they might have been able to tell


1 us for how long during the trip he seemed to able to 2 respond to them. 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: That sort of information would have 5 been helpful, I think. 6 Q: Sure. But, I take from you evidence 7 yesterday that when Mr. George was in the hospital you 8 and Dr. Marr assessed him carefully and you, based on 9 what you could observe, you took all the steps that you 10 thought were necessary and appropriate? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah. I also wanted to ask you a 13 little bit, you had made some comments with respect to 14 Mr. Cecil Bernard George that one (1) of the things you 15 had specifically asked him was about the drinking of 16 alcohol. 17 And I take it that's because, especially 18 in a situation where you were concerned about someone's 19 level of consciousness you'd want to know whether or not 20 they had any drugs or alcohol on board that could affect 21 their level of consciousness? 22 A: That's exactly right. 23 Q: And, I also take it that if another 24 medical professional or first aid attendant or healthcare 25 personnel had previously assessed Mr. Cecil Bernard


1 George and made some kind of findings or lack of findings 2 in that regard, you would like that information passed on 3 to you as well? 4 A: Yes? 5 Q: And, that would be something that you 6 would expect would happen? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And, the reason I'm asking you that 9 question, Doctor, is because we, earlier, heard some 10 evidence where there was some criticism of one (1) of the 11 persons who had attended to Mr. Cecil Bernard George for 12 telling the ambulance attendant that he hadn't smelled 13 any alcohol on Mr. Cecil Bernard George's breath and that 14 was criticized as being something that was inappropriate. 15 And, I take it that that's not your view? 16 A: No, I think -- I think that is 17 necessary information, sure. 18 Q: And, it ought to be passed on? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: It's the right thing to do? 21 A: Yeah, I agree. 22 Q: Sure. You had also mentioned, I 23 think, that during the course -- and I'm sorry to hop 24 back and forth here -- 25 A: That's okay.


1 Q: -- I know that that's difficult. You 2 were talking about, during Mr. Dudley George's 3 resuscitative efforts, that his shirt had been cut away 4 so that you and Dr. Marr could look at Mr. George's back? 5 A: I think it was -- well, now I'm not 6 so sure whether it was cut up the back or whether it had 7 been just cut open along the front -- 8 Q: The -- the -- the actual question, 9 though was, he had his shirt on? 10 A: I think I -- yeah. He had his shirt 11 on. I guess I don't directly recall that. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I think I -- I think I know that from 14 nurses' notes or other notes that I have that -- that it 15 had been cut. 16 Q: Okay. And, you had talked a little 17 bit about the stitches and, again, I'm sorry to hop from 18 person to person, with Mr. Cecil Bernard George -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- you talked about suturing his 21 upper lip. 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: And, I understand from looking at Mr. 24 Cecil Bernard George's record that there were three (3) 25 stitches that were inserted; is that consistent with what


1 you recall? 2 A: That would be surprisingly few, 3 because I would have had to repair both the orbicularis 4 muscle as well as the mucosal surface and the -- 5 Q: Okay, if you -- if you wanted to 6 check -- 7 A: yeah. 8 Q: -- and, maybe you do and maybe you 9 don't, I had looked for your notes about what you did and 10 I didn't see that you documented that. 11 A: No. 12 Q: But, when I looked in the nurses' 13 notes and I'm looking specifically at Inquiry Document 14 Number 100047, and you may have Mr. Cecil Bernard's chart 15 included in your documents? 16 A: I have parts of it, would it be in a 17 -- a tab we could refer to? 18 Q: Well, I'm just going to see what I 19 can do for you here. 20 A: You're -- you're correct in that I 21 don't think I saw any notes made by me. 22 Q: Right. I think it's in your Tab 3, 23 if I'm not -- or, at least -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- it looks from my notes that


1 there's at least a portion of his record there, because 2 it says, "medical file." Maybe you could check. 3 A: All I have is the History and 4 Physical of Dr. Marr under Tab 3. 5 Q: Can you -- can you put that up on the 6 screen there? It's 0000328. 7 A: Three (3) -- sorry? 8 Q: These documents that -- there are 9 other documents. I take it, that you don't have Mr. 10 Cecil Bernard George's chart and -- but the Commission 11 does, and so I'm just asking them to put up on the 12 screen, so that if you wanted to look at the notes and 13 see if that refreshed your memory, that you could do 14 that. 15 If you look -- if we go down to the page - 16 - to the entry that's timed at about 1:15 you'll see 17 there, there's a reference -- 18 A: I see that, three (3) stitches into 19 upper lip. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Hmm hmm. My recollection is that it 22 was a full thickness disruption of the lip and I -- I can 23 hardly imagine that it would be adequately repaired with 24 three (3) stitches, but I haven't seen it since. 25 Q: Sure, and you've got no reason to


1 question what's documented contemporaneously at the time? 2 A: Well -- 3 Q: And, in fact, Mr. Cecil Bernard 4 George had told us he had three (3) stitches as well. 5 A: It -- only that the deeper stitches 6 would be not evident to the patient and it maybe that the 7 nurse didn't observe the placement of the deeper, 8 muscular sutures. 9 Q: Sure, but you don't -- 10 A: It does seem surprisingly few. 11 Q: Okay. And you talked a little about, 12 and again I'm sorry to hop around here, about the 13 location of the bullet wound with Mr. Dudley George and 14 you described it as being super clavicular in the little 15 dip in -- the little -- 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: -- dip in the neck. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: I take it that, then, the wound was 20 at the top of the shoulder, if that's a poor way to 21 describe it, or close to the top of the shoulder? 22 A: I guess you could use all those 23 references to explain where the supraclavicular fossa is. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: It's behind the clavicle, at the base


1 of the neck, medial to the shoulder. 2 Q: Right, and I take it that if, for 3 example, you were pulling up Mr. Dudley George's shirt to 4 look at his chest area, you wouldn't see that; it would 5 be above it? 6 A: It is above and -- 7 Q: Yeah. 8 A: -- behind the collar bone. 9 Q: Yeah. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And you were asked some questions 14 yesterday about defensive inaggressive-type injuries, and 15 I think that you had told us yesterday was that Mr. Cecil 16 Bernard George didn't have any fractures of the 17 metacarpals and you referred to them as boxer fracture -- 18 boxer's fractures. 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And I take it in even crude or 21 layman's terms, that would be the equivalent of fractured 22 knuckles; is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. So, that would be an injury 25 that someone would sustain, for example, by hitting


1 someone very hard with their fist? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Okay. But, I take it that you 4 couldn't tell, for example, whether or not Mr. Cecil 5 Bernard George had had any weapons in his hand? 6 A: No, I certainly couldn't. 7 Q: No. And that's not something that 8 Mr. Cotrelle talked to you about? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No, or whether he was kicking, for 11 example; you wouldn't know that? 12 A: It -- it wasn't described and I 13 didn't inquire as to what other -- what -- what Mr. 14 George -- 15 Q: Was doing? 16 A: -- was doing -- 17 Q: That's right. 18 A: -- as part of the -- the fight, if it 19 were -- could be called that. 20 Q: Right. And those are all my 21 questions. Thank you, Doctor. 22 A: You're welcome. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much, Ms. Jones. 25 Mr. O'Marra...?


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. AL O'MARRA: I'll be very brief, 4 Commissioner. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 7 Q: Dr. Saettler, my name is Al O'Marra. 8 I'm here on behalf of the chief coroner. 9 And just with respect to the location of 10 the bullet wound on Dudley George, I take it that you 11 would defer to the pathologist, who -- 12 A: I certainly would. 13 Q: -- had the opportunity to actually -- 14 A: Describe -- 15 Q: -- chart the location? 16 A: Yes, I would. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that it? 21 Thank you very much, Mr. O'Marra. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: He was indeed brief. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he was. 24 Any re-examination? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: There is no


1 re-examination of the witness, Mr. Commissioner, but I do 2 want to thank Dr. Saettler for her attendance here. 3 I know that she had taken time from her 4 busy schedule to come out here. It was some travelling 5 and I know that she has a busy schedule to keep and to 6 get back to Winnipeg and as well as her Counsel, Mr. 7 Dantzer, who has been present as well. 8 So, thank you. 9 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much, Doctor, for -- it looks like you're going to 12 make your plane. 13 THE WITNESS: I would also like to thank 14 you, Commissioner and parties to the Inquiry for staying 15 late last night, I appreciate that, to enable me to -- to 16 get home. Thanks. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 19 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 20 21 MR. DONALD WORME: I see Ms. Vella is 22 approaching now and -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 morning. Good morning, Ms. Vella, do you need some time 25 or you okay to start right up?


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think we can start. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 7 its next witness, Malcolm Gilpin. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good day, 9 Mr. Gilpin. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Gilpin. 14 MR. MALCOLM GILPIN: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 16 the Bible, sir, or affirm? 17 MR. MALCOLM GILPIN: I can swear on the 18 Bible, sir. 19 THE REGISTRAR: The Bible is to your 20 right, there, just take in your right hand, please, and 21 give us your name in full. 22 MR. MALCOLM GILPIN: My name is Mac 23 Gilpin, I live in Forest. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 25


1 MALCOLM GILPIN, Sworn 2 3 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Good morning, Mr. Gilpin. 5 A: Good morning. 6 Q: I understand that your name is 7 Malcolm Gilpin? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that you're commonly referred to 10 as, "Mac?" 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Your date of birth is March 16, 1951? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, just before I go -- go through 15 your -- the employment background, I'd like to clarify 16 whether or not you operated a funeral parlour in 1995? 17 A: No, I've never operated a funeral 18 home. 19 Q: Do you have a relative who is a 20 funeral director? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: And, what's his name? 23 A: Ron Gilpin. 24 Q: Thank you. I understand that in 1995 25 you were the owner and operator of the Forest Ambulance


1 Service? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: When did you become the owner? 4 A: 1974. 5 Q: And, are you currently the owner of 6 that operation? 7 A: No. 8 Q: When did you cease to be -- to own 9 Forest Ambulance Service? 10 A: I think it was December of 2000. 11 Q: Now, in 1995, were you a certified 12 paramedic? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, for my information, were there 15 different levels of certifications for paramedics in 16 September of '95? 17 A: Throughout the province there was, 18 yes, sort of, advance care as well as basic life support. 19 Q: All right. So, there was a basic 20 life support; that would be like Level 1? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And -- and advanced training? 23 A: Referred to, generally, as P2. 24 Q: As P2? 25 A: P2.


1 Q: All right. And, what -- do you know 2 what distinguished an advanced level, or P2, from the 3 basic level paramedic? 4 A: Certainly a -- a great deal more of 5 training for a P2. And in 1995, it was a program that 6 was sort of being started by the Ministry of Health, so 7 the -- a P2 would be trained in advanced IV, and they 8 would be operating, like a manually-operated 9 defibrillator as well as a number of cardiac drugs and -- 10 and controlled drugs as well. 11 Q: All right. And what level did you -- 12 were you in September of 1995? 13 A: Just P1. 14 Q: As a P1 paramedic, what -- what were 15 you qualified to do in terms of offering any type of 16 health or medical related intervention? 17 A: Generally, the -- the skill -- skills 18 were restricted to symptom relief drugs and semi- 19 automatic defibrillator in addition to, obviously splint 20 application and bandaging and oxygen therapy, suction. 21 Q: When you say, "oxygen therapy," can 22 you describe what that involved? 23 A: Just generally administering oxygen 24 and -- and what method you're going to, obviously, just 25 deliver the oxygen.


1 Q: All right. Would that include 2 delivery of oxygen through -- with the assistance of 3 equipment? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And what kind of 6 equipment would be used? 7 A: Generally just a normal mask, if you 8 were, or a nasal cannula, or to ventilator-assisted 9 oxygen delivery. 10 Q: All right. Were you qualified as a 11 Level 1 paramedic to administer intravenous? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Going back to 1995, what geographical 14 area did you provide ambulance service to? 15 A: Are you referring to the Forest 16 service or...? 17 Q: Well, I'm referring -- okay, for now 18 for the Forest service? 19 A: Generally, approximately twelve (12) 20 to thirteen (13) radius -- mile radius of the -- of the 21 vill -- or the town of Forest. 22 Q: All right. And did you also manage 23 or provide ambulance service to other areas beyond that 24 geographical location in the capacity as the owner of the 25 ambulance service?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what additional area did you 3 provide service to? 4 A: We operated an ambulance service in 5 the village of Watford, as well as the village of Glencoe 6 and the town of Bothwell. 7 Q: Town of...? 8 A: Bothwell. 9 Q: Bothwell. All right. How many 10 ambulance units as the -- the actual vehicles did you 11 operate in your fleet in total? 12 A: One (1), two (2) -- we had five (5) 13 vehicles. 14 Q: And this is in 1995? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And where were those vehicles 17 physically -- 18 A: I'm sorry, six (6). I'm sorry. 19 Q: Six (6)? 20 A: We had a spare vehicle as well. 21 Q: Okay. Where were those vehicles 22 physically located? 23 A: A vehicle was at each of the 24 stations. So, we had a vehicle in Glencoe, a vehicle in 25 Bothwell, Watford and in Forest.


1 Q: All right. Did you typically -- 2 where would the other three (3) vehicles be maintained, 3 typically -- or the other two (2) I should say? 4 A: You say maintenance, you mean or...? 5 Q: Yes. You said you had four (4) -- or 6 six (6) in -- in total and you said one (1) at each of 7 the four (4) stations? 8 A: We had one (1) in Forest, one (1) in 9 Watford, one (1) in -- one (1) in Forest, one (1) in 10 Watford, one (1) in Glencoe, one (1) in Bothwell; so 11 that's four (4) and then I had a spare. So, I had five 12 (5), I'm sorry. 13 Q: Where was the spare located? 14 A: Generally the spare vehicle would be 15 utilized wherever there is some maintenance issues of a 16 vehicle -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So it -- it often would float in -- 19 in the area. As well, maybe the Thedford may have 20 required it -- it was sort of a regional vehicle that 21 could be used for maintenance issues. 22 Q: Okay. I wonder if we can put the -- 23 the map, Exhibit 349, on the screen, please. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: This is Exhibit 349(B); it's an 2 electronic version of a map for Lambton County generally. 3 Can you point out, using your laser -- hopefully you have 4 a laser pointer up there, do you, yeah -- and just 5 identify for the record the location of the four (4) 6 ambulance stations that you operated? 7 A: Is it -- that's Forest. 8 Q: All right. And I wonder, just before 9 you move on, can you please... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Okay. All right. I'm just being 14 advised that Bothwell isn't on this particular map, or 15 Glencoe. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: All right. So, you can see then the 20 top left corner is Forest ambulance station, it's already 21 marked on this map. And in the bottom, towards the 22 bottom of the Lambton County is Watford; is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And just -- can you tell 25 me approximately where Glencoe are Bothwell are? I -- I


1 assume they're not located in Lambton County; is that 2 right? 3 A: No, actually Bothwell's in Kent 4 County, so it's immediately to the south -- 5 Q: All right. 6 A: -- and -- and Glencoe is immediately 7 to the south as well as east. 8 Q: Okay. Now, are they both in Kent 9 County? 10 A: Glencoe's in Middlesex County. 11 Q: Thank you. How many crew members did 12 you have working for you in September of 1995? 13 A: Out of the Forest Station? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: I think I believe I had six (6) full- 16 time staff there plus myself. 17 Q: And, did you also have full-time 18 staff at Watford? 19 A: Generally, the Watford vehicle was -- 20 was known, sort of in the business, as a satellite 21 station, so we had operated at 8:00 in the morning to 22 6:00 at night and it -- the crew would leave the Forest 23 Station with the vehicle in the morning and -- and they 24 would be satellited at the fire hall at -- in the village 25 of Watford.


1 Q: Okay. So, you had essentially seven 2 (7) full-time paramedics? 3 A: I believe that's right. 4 Q: And, what -- what were their -- their 5 qualifications? What level of paramedic were they? 6 A: They were all P1. 7 Q: They were all P1's? You had no 8 advanced care paramedics? 9 A: No, no advanced care. 10 Q: All right. Do you know where, based 11 on your -- your experience, where the nearest advanced 12 care paramedics were available, that is, nearest Forest? 13 A: At that time I believe they had some 14 in Sarnia, at the Sarnia service. 15 Q: Sarnia service? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Know whether there were also any in - 18 - in Strathroy? 19 A: No, the closest after that would be 20 the city of London. 21 Q: All right. So, none of your crew 22 members, then, were qualified to monitor or administer, I 23 should say, an intravenous; is that correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: But they had the other skills which


1 you've associated with -- with Level I paramedics? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: I understand that in order to be 4 qualified to transport injured persons, you have to have 5 a particular vehicle license? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And, what license is that? 8 A: It's an F Class license. 9 Q: And, how many of your crew members 10 had a Class F license out of the Forest-Watford area? 11 A: All the staff would have an F Class. 12 Q: All right. Can you just tell us very 13 briefly how do you qualify for a Class F license? 14 A: Generally, it's a written test and 15 then to obtain an F you have to -- to drive a -- a 16 vehicle, generally, it's an ambulance or a large van-type 17 vehicle on a -- a driver -- with a -- with a Ministry of 18 Transportation person with you to evaluate your skills. 19 Q: All right. And, what particular 20 items are you tested for that would distinguish a Class F 21 license from an ordinary license that -- that I might 22 have? 23 A: Generally, some of the -- as I recall 24 it, some of the -- the skill value, if you want, was, you 25 know, doing a circle check on the vehicle in the morning


1 and ensuring the vehicle's in a safe manner. 2 Q: All right. Were there also special 3 principles applied with respect to, for example, 4 operating an ambulance at a Code 4 speed? 5 A: I don't believe there was any -- that 6 I'm familiar with -- any skill values that would be 7 tested on that. 8 Q: All right. And, you've indicated 9 that you had a total of -- of six (6) -- sorry, five (5) 10 ambulance units. Focussing on the ambulance units that 11 were available at the Forest Station, can you tell me, 12 first of all, did they have to be in some manner 13 regulated or certified under the Ministry of Health? 14 A: Each vehicle would -- would have a -- 15 a safety standard certificate issued to it every six (6) 16 months, so it would -- plus it went through a very 17 rigorous preventive maintenance program, for instance, 18 changing the oil every six thousand (6,000) kilometres 19 and what not. 20 Q: Okay. All right. And were there 21 minimum requirements in terms of the equipment, medical 22 related equipment that had to be maintained on these 23 ambulances under the Ministry of Health? 24 A: Yeah, the equipment in terms of what 25 was in the vehicle is regulated under the Ambulance Act.


1 Q: All right. And what equipment did 2 your ambulance have -- ambulances have in 1995? 3 A: Well, we had everything that was 4 regulated or required in the Ambulance Act. 5 Q: Was there, for example, a C-collar in 6 each of your ambulances? 7 A: Each of the vehicles would carry -- 8 we call it a -- a cervical collar response kit if you 9 want, that had all the correct collars and the correct 10 straps to be used for the cervical board and what not. 11 Q: A survival board, did you say? 12 A: Cervical -- cervical collars and 13 fracture board, I'm sorry. 14 Q: Fracture board, okay. Did you have 15 any type of defibrillator on board? 16 A: Each vehicle would have a semi- 17 automatic defibrillator. 18 Q: Okay. Do you have any equipment that 19 would assist in measuring blood pressure? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: What would that be? 22 A: Each vehicle had what -- had a wall 23 mounted sphygmomanometer as well as a -- each response 24 kit had a -- a hand unit that you could use for measuring 25 blood pressure as well; both a child and an adult size.


1 Q: Okay. And did you ambulances have 2 any equipment to assist with oxygen therapy on them? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Which equipment? 5 A: Each -- each vehicle would have had a 6 -- a Flynn Regulator, so it's a regulated by oxygen 7 delivery, if you want, and as well as portable oxygen 8 that they could take out of the vehicle. 9 Q: All right. Do you recall the -- what 10 unit -- I understand each ambulance is designated by a 11 unit number? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And is that coordinated under the 14 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Health? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So each ambulance has its own 17 distinct number? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall what unit 20 numbers you had associated with your ambulances in the -- 21 and the Forest ambulances? 22 A: Well, the Forest vehicle was referred 23 to as 1146. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Watford is 1145. Our spare vehicle


1 was called 1505. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And do you recall the names of the 7 crew people that you had, the paramedics who attended out 8 of the Forest and Watford satellite stations? 9 A: That particular evening -- 10 Q: Oh, they'd be, of course, different - 11 - different paramedics associated with the ambulance from 12 time to time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay, so that particular evening? 15 A: That evening -- 16 Q: September the 5th -- 6th? 17 A: -- of the -- our Forest vehicle was 18 staffed with John Tedball and Mark Watt. 19 Q: That's 1146? 20 A: Yes. And obviously at 9:30 the crew 21 the reported with 45 was myself and Cesare DiCesare. 22 Q: And that's for 1145? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And 505, I think was later staffed


1 with Darcy Thompson and Geoff Brooks. 2 Q: All right. And these are all Level 1 3 paramedics? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: When did you first become aware that 6 ambulance service might be required for the Ipperwash 7 park occupation? 8 A: That particular evening, you mean, 9 ma'am, or...? 10 Q: No, during the course of the 11 occupation which was at September the 4th to 6th, '95 in 12 particular is what I'm interested in. 13 A: I believe when I was working -- and 14 I'll have to refer to my notes, if I could? 15 Q: Certainly. Which notes are those? 16 A: I believe they're ones that -- in the 17 notebook here. 18 Q: Are you referring to the -- the 19 ambulance log? 20 A: No, it's -- it'd be under section 9. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: What I have there is the -- your 25 anticipated evidence; is that what you're looking at?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. This is a statement that 3 was -- or an interview that was held on September the 4 22nd, 1995. 5 And first of all I'll ask, do you recall 6 being interviewed by Bob Moore -- Muir who was the 7 investigator with the Special Investigations Unit, 8 together with Jim Kennedy from that unit? 9 A: Yes, I do. 10 Q: All right. And do you recall that 11 that was a recorded interview? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: All right. You had the opportunity 14 to review this document in advance of today? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And does it appear to be accurate in 17 terms of the transcription so far as you can recall? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. What page would you like 20 to look at to refresh your memory? 21 A: I'm just looking for the area that -- 22 I believe it's back of the -- where we spoke -- if you 23 just give me a minute I'll just look it up here. 24 Q: Certainly. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I believe it's on page 14, ma'am. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Take a moment then to review that and 8 advise me as to whether it refreshes your memory. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Does that refresh your memory? 14 A: It helps, yes. 15 Q: All right. Can you advise me then 16 when it was that you first became aware an ambulance 17 service might be required for the Ipperwash Park 18 occupation situation? 19 A: I -- I believe it's around ten 20 o'clock in the morning on the 5th of September. 21 Q: All right. And can you tell us what 22 the circumstances of -- of that notice was? 23 A: I believe I was working at the 24 Glencoe or Bothwell station and then I was actually at 25 Four Counties Hospital and I remember getting a page.


1 And it was a call that was from Dan Grant requesting a 2 vehicle for standby duty at the Park. 3 Q: All right. And did Mr. Grant 4 identify himself to you? 5 A: I believe so, yes. 6 Q: And who was he? 7 A: He was from the OPP. 8 Q: All right. Did he tell you why it 9 was he requested a standby ambulance for -- for the Park? 10 A: I -- I don't believe he gave me the 11 specifics. Like, he just said, We would like to have a 12 vehicle down there. 13 Q: All right. And what did you do in 14 response to this request? 15 A: I believe I told him it would be 16 difficult for me to up-staff the vehicle without, you 17 know, obviously, Ministry of Health permission to -- to 18 incur additional cost. 19 Q: All right. Cost to -- to the 20 service, as you'd be charging -- you charge the Ministry 21 of Health for the ambulance services you provided? 22 A: Well, we -- we had, in those -- in 23 that particular days we'd have to be funded to provide 24 that up-staffing coverage for the crews. 25 Q: And did you take steps to request


1 that permission? 2 A: Yes, I did. I contacted at that 3 time, which would be our regional manager in London, 4 Ontario, and -- and indicated I had received a request. 5 And because I was busy at the time, I said, Why don't you 6 just call directly to the OPP and -- and talk to Dan 7 Grant about the request. 8 Q: All right. And -- and as a result of 9 any discussions that may have occurred between those -- 10 those two (2) individuals, did you receive any 11 instructions to send an ambulance unit down to the Park 12 area as requested? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Were you provided with 15 any reason at to why you would not send them? 16 A: I -- I don't recall. All that my 17 notes indicate, that I think it was a conversation that 18 was between Mr. Arbour and -- and Dan Grant. So -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- all I got back was that, 21 obviously, was a -- a costing to it and we wouldn't be -- 22 we wouldn't be up-staffing the vehicle as a result. 23 Q: All right. So, as a result of not 24 getting funding, you did not send an ambulance down to 25 the Park on September the 5th?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: All right. When did you, next, 3 receive a request for ambulance service in relation to 4 the -- the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 5 A: It'd be the next day, the following 6 evening. 7 Q: And do you recall who notified you? 8 A: It came through our dispatch office 9 at Wallaceburg. 10 Q: That's the Wallaceburg Central 11 Ambulance Communication Centre? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And I may just refer to 14 that Centre as, "Wallaceburg" during the course of my 15 examination. 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: And who notified you from that -- 18 from Wallaceburg? 19 A: I can't remember. I think it was 20 Geoff Connors, the supervisor who was on duty that 21 evening. 22 Q: All right. Now, do you recall what 23 Mr. Connors, or at least the person from Wallaceburg, 24 what he told you was required? 25 A: I just -- can I refer to my notes,


1 or... 2 Q: Certainly. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Are you looking for the -- what note 7 are you looking at? 8 A: I was looking at my notes that I used 9 as an ambulance incident report. 10 Q: All right. I wonder if we might put 11 that on the screen and I'll ask you a couple of questions 12 about that first; it's Inquiry Document Number 5000471. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right. I'm told that we have 17 some technical issues with respect to this. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Commissioner, I'm -- I'm going to be 22 quite relying on the Supertext database, I -- I'd like 23 permission to have a morning break at this time so that I 24 can switch computers and ensure that we can have a 25 smoothly run examination.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll have 2 the morning break now. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:12 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:33 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. 16 Mr. Gilpin, you were about to refer to a 17 document. Now, it's in our database as Inquiry Document 18 Number 5000471 and the second part of that report is at 19 5000472. 20 Mr. Gilpin, this appears to be a 21 continuous narrative report. Is it -- is this continuous 22 or were there actually two (2) different reports? 23 A: There's different call numbers on -- 24 on two (2) reports but it is basically a continuous 25 report of the incident.


1 Q: So you have to read 1 and 2 to get 2 the whole story? 3 A: As we proceed on, yes. 4 Q: All right. And are you required, as 5 part of your job, to fill out an ambulance incident 6 report? 7 A: Yes, on an unusual event. 8 Q: On unusual events? 9 A: Or a VSA or a vital signs absent 10 patient. 11 Q: And did the Ipperwash occupation 12 events constitute an unusual event that required a 13 report? 14 A: In the beginning, obviously not, but 15 as we went through the evening they did, so. 16 Q: All right. When did you prepare this 17 report? 18 A: Be the next day, following the 19 incident. 20 Q: It's dated September the 7th, 1995. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And does this represent your 23 recollection of the events of the evening of September 24 6th and the early hour -- mornings -- morning hours of 25 September the 7th, 1995?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now because it will become, perhaps, 3 an issue later on, there are various times which you have 4 recorded in this report with respect to when you received 5 calls and when you arrived at certain destinations. 6 What was the source of your information 7 for the times that we see reflected in this report? 8 A: We obtained them from Wallaceburg 9 ambulance dispatch. 10 Q: You obtained them from the dispatch 11 logs from Wallaceburg? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. So, these aren't 14 independent recollection of times? 15 A: No, that's correct. 16 Q: And for the record, the Witness is 17 referring to Exhibit P-345, with respect to the ambulance 18 logs. 19 All right. Now, you were going to review 20 this report and refresh your memory with respect to my 21 question which was: What -- what were you told with 22 respect to the initial notification and approximately 23 what time did that occur? 24 A: It was approximately at 9:30 that 25 evening and it was in response to a request by the Forest


1 OPP for two (2) ambulances in a possible confrontation 2 that may occur at Ipperwash provincial Park. 3 Q: All right. And I see you use the 4 word "confrontation", do you recall whether that's a word 5 that you used to describe the situation or was this the 6 term that was conveyed to you? 7 A: I can't recall. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: All right. And if we would look at 12 Tab 5 of your brief and Exhibit P-345, this is the -- the 13 Wallaceburg ambulance logs and front number 0009536. 14 They are consecutively numbered in the top left-hand 15 corner. 16 It's Document Number 1002002. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Are you there, with -- 21 A: This -- 22 Q: -- the -- 23 A: -- appears to be the second page in, 24 ma'am? 25 Q: All right. So, you're looking at


1 9537, are you? 2 A: The number on the top left is 3 1002002. 4 Q: Yeah, no that's a common number for 5 the whole document -- 6 A: Okay, I'm sorry. 7 Q: Right below it, is a number. It's 8 called -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- a front. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: If you look at 0009536. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: It appears to be a dispatch detail 18 report, relating to unit 1145 which was your unit and it 19 indicates that you were notified at about 21:34. 20 Now, this is a long time ago, but do you 21 recall being notified in or around 9:30 p.m. that night? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And were you given any other 24 details by Wallaceburg concerning what the terms of your 25 assignment would be?


1 A: I don't recall any other ones. 2 Q: Right. As a result of receiving this 3 advice from Mr. Connors, what did you do? 4 A: Well, that particular evening, I 5 really wasn't on duty, however, they called me at my 6 residence to basically up-staff a vehicle, so we 7 proceeded to the -- to the ambulance base. 8 Q: To the Forest Ambulance Base? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: All right. Because normally you'd 11 have one (1) car on duty and -- 12 A: On -- 13 Q: -- the request here was for two (2)? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And what was the other 16 vehicle that was dispatched in addition to it? 17 A: It would be the Forest vehicle, the 18 1146. 19 Q: All right. And you were in 1145? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Okay. Where did you go from the 22 Forest Ambulance Service? 23 A: We departed the base and proceeded 24 down 21 Highway to the Ipperwash Centre Road, I believe 25 it's called, and then down to the Ministry of Natural


1 Resources parking lot. 2 Q: All right. And is that parking lot 3 located off East Parkway Drive? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And approximately between Ipperwash 6 Road and Army Camp Road? 7 A: Yes, that's correct 8 Q: And who was -- who was your partner 9 that evening? 10 A: My partner was Cesare DiCesare. 11 Q: All right. And do you -- do you 12 recall how long it took you to get from the ambulance 13 base to the MNR parking lot, approximately? 14 A: Probably about fifteen (15) minutes. 15 Q: All right. And the log -- I don't 16 know if you still have it open before you, 9536 -- 17 indicates that you arrived at the MNR parking lot at 18 about 21:53, having left the base at around 21:41; it's a 19 differential of approximately twelve (12) minutes. 20 Does that sound like about -- about the 21 amount of time it would have taken you to get there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And perhaps we could go 24 back to the map? Yes, thank you. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, we've put up on the screen a 4 different map, we'll identify it for the record as Map 5 Number 2 and this appears to be a map of the area 6 adjacent to the Ipperwash Provincial Park. You'll see 7 Lake Huron at the top of the screen; you'll see East 8 Parkway Drive going through the screen, and -- yes, 9 that's Ipperwash Road and Army Camp Road to the right and 10 if you would just point out, Mr. Emery, the MNR parking 11 lot? 12 And I see that there are tracks there. 13 Can you just -- where the circles are? Okay. Does that 14 look like the approximate location of the MNR parking lot 15 to you that you went to? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. I'd like to make this map 18 the next exhibit, please? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-370, Your Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-370. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-370(a): Digital Map (hard copy) of 23 Map No. 2. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-370(b): Electronic Map of Map No. 2


1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: Now, once you -- when you arrived at 4 the parking lot, did you have to go through a -- a police 5 check do you recall or a -- a checkpoint? 6 A: Yes, I -- I believe there was -- was 7 two (2), but one (1) particularly, was just prior to the 8 parking lot. 9 Q: Do you recall where the first one was 10 using that map? 11 A: Right at the intersection of Parkway 12 and Ipperwash. 13 Q: Ipperwash Road? Okay, so right, 14 approximately, there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. I wonder if you would 17 kindly, Mr. Emery, mark that map? Call it the Ipperwash 18 Road Check Point or OPP Checkpoint? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: Miss Vella, do you want a 23 hard copy of this to be 370(a)? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We'll also have a hard 25 copy. That sounds fine, let's make the -- the electronic


1 copy be consistent "B"; the hard copy "A". Thank you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: All right. And are you able to show 5 us when you arrived at the -- in the MNR parking lot, 6 where did you go? 7 A: Can I show you with the marker? 8 Q: Yes, just with your pointer. 9 A: I believe we entered right about this 10 area here. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And, initially, that's where we 13 initially parked, right along this area. 14 Q: All right. And how long did you stay 15 there in that area? 16 A: I can't recall the exact time. 17 Q: Okay. Can you mark that, Mr. Emery; 18 Unit 1145. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Arrival time approximately 21:53, 23 September 6th. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Thank you. Okay. All right. Now 2 when -- when you arrived at -- in the MNR parking lot 3 was the other unit also with you, Unit 1146? 4 A: Yes, it was in front of us. 5 Q: All right. Were any other ambulance 6 units in the MNR parking lot when you arrived? 7 A: I don't recall any at the time. 8 Q: Okay. And just for clarification, 9 did you go to the Forest OPP detachment first, for any 10 type of briefing? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Can you describe the 13 scene when you entered the MNR parking lot, then? 14 A: There was a number of OPP cruisers 15 there and staff that -- they were obviously OPP officers 16 that were -- appeared to be getting, sort of, dressed in 17 protective gear, I guess you might call it. 18 Q: All right. And did you observe any 19 St. John's vehicles -- ambulance vehicles there? 20 A: Later when we were directed to move 21 the vehicles, I recall a St. John Ambulance vehicle 22 arriving and it had parked behind us. 23 Q: All right. But, prior to that, were 24 there any existing St. John's vehicles that you saw? 25 A: I can't say I recall it at the time.


1 Q: All right. And once you entered the 2 MNR parking lot, what happened? 3 A: We were met by, I believe, Staff 4 Sergeant Wade Lacroix and I knew him from the Petrolia 5 Detachment, so you know, obviously we asked him the 6 duration of the -- of the incident and what was, sort of, 7 going on. 8 Q: And what did he respond to you? 9 A: If I could just probably refer to my 10 notes. 11 Q: Are you looking at the accident -- 12 ambulance incident report? 13 A: Yes. Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Asked -- we asked officer Lacroix for 16 the request for -- why the request for the ambulances and 17 the duration of the exercise and whether the OPP 18 suspected firearms were at Ipperwash Park. 19 Q: And do you recall what his response 20 was to you? 21 A: From my notes, officer Lacroix 22 indicated that, in the afternoon there had -- the natives 23 had caused considerable damage to an OPP cruiser and 24 other vehicles with rocks and stones and had -- and had 25 replaced the barriers. There must have been barriers at


1 the entrance to Ipperwash Provincial Park. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And he indicated the purpose tonight 4 was not to remove the natives from the Park, and he was 5 not sure of the length of the duration of the exercise at 6 the time. 7 I remember a crew member asked him about 8 pepper spray and Mr. -- officer Lacroix indicated he was 9 not concerned about pepper spray, but -- but firearms and 10 suspected the possible use of firearms and the use of 11 fire. 12 For these reasons, the crews were 13 instructed that we'd be not going to the scene. 14 Q: All right. Now, do you have any 15 independent recollection of this conversation or are you 16 essentially reading from your notes? 17 A: I'm reading from my notes on that. 18 Q: Do you have independent recollection 19 of a conversation with officer Lacroix in which he 20 conveyed this information? 21 A: I remember speaking to him, but I 22 don't remember the details. 23 Q: All right. Commissioner, I'd like to 24 make this document the next exhibit. It's Inquiry 25 document number 500 -- sorry, 5000471.


1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P-371, Your 2 Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-371. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-371: Document No. 5000471 6 Ambulance incident report 7 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And while we're at it, 9 the second report, which is Inquiry document number 10 5000472, I'd like it to -- make -- make that the next 11 exhibit, please. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-372. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-372. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-372: Document 5000472 16 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are those 19 two (2) documents in the binder, in the brief that I 20 have? 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't believe -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 23 going to be referring -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, they're not. I 25 don't believe they are.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 Are we going to be referring to them any more. Should I 3 get a copy? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, we are. Yes, you 5 should have a copy. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should I -- 7 all right. Is it enough to have it on the screen? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can follow 12 it on the screen. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'll give you this for 14 now. I see that it's stapled somewhat out -- backwards, 15 but in any event. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. Could you hand 18 this up? Sorry, this is for -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm going to 20 mark it up. I'm going to mark it up, so if you give it 21 to me -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, I'm sorry, I guess 23 it'll have to be that one. Okay. Thank you. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:


1 Q: Now, how were you dressed that 2 evening when you went to the MNR parking lot? 3 A: Just in our normal ambulance uniform, 4 and at the time it was short-sleeve shirt. 5 Q: All right. And was any concern 6 expressed to you with respect to the state of your dress? 7 A: Yes. Officer Lacroix asked us if we 8 had protective gear, and we said no. 9 Q: Do you recall what it was Officer 10 Lacroix was wearing at that time? 11 A: I don't recall what he was wearing at 12 the time. 13 Q: All right. So, essentially were you 14 and -- did you understand your task at the time to be 15 essentially on standby in the event that later on need 16 for your service would be required? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And did you have an 19 understanding, based on what Officer Lacroix told you, 20 that there was at least a possibility that there could be 21 gunfire and the use of fire that evening? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Did Officer Lacroix tell you what the 2 basis of his suspicion or belief was with respect to the 3 existence of firearms? 4 A: No. I don't recall that, no. 5 Q: And what happened next? 6 A: I believe he indicated that he'd like 7 to have -- I believe it was a medic by the name of Ted 8 Slomer speak to us regarding our equipment and what not. 9 Q: All right. Now, at this time are you 10 still in the position that you've referred to earlier, 11 are you still in that initial position or had you moved? 12 A: Shortly, either after or -- after the 13 -- our discussion, I believe it was just after -- before 14 our discussion with Ted Slomer, we -- we moved the 15 vehicles after we spoke to Mr. Slomer. 16 Q: All right. And looking at the map 17 behind you, are you able to show me where you moved to? 18 A: I believe we, sort of, turned them 19 around and they were pointed, more or less, in this 20 direction, with the one vehicle, 1146, approximately 21 here. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: 45 was right behind it. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And at that time I believe a St.


1 John's unit was right behind that. 2 Q: All right. And how many minutes 3 after you arrived at the MNR parking lot did you move to 4 that position, approximately? 5 A: After our discussion with Mr. Slomer, 6 probably -- after we had arrived on the scene, probably 7 twenty (20) minutes, we moved the vehicles. 8 Q: Approximately twenty (20) minutes? 9 A: I think so. 10 Q: All right. So, the first marking is 11 1146. And we'll mark that at approximately 22:13, 12 approximately, as arrival. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Okay. Now, did you -- did you happen 17 to know, prior to this evening, Ted Slomer? 18 A: Yes. I was aware of him, yes. 19 Q: And were you -- how is it that you 20 were aware of him? 21 A: Ted was employed, I believe at the 22 time, with the London base hospital as a director -- or 23 as an employee of the hospital, that did training for the 24 P2's. 25 Q: Sorry?


1 A: Ted was employed by Victoria 2 Hospital, which at that time was referred to as our base 3 hospital. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And -- and Ted was responsible, as I 6 understand it, for training some P2's. 7 Q: For training the advanced level 8 paramedics? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And, to your knowledge, was he, 11 himself, an advanced level paramedic? 12 A: That was my understanding, yes. 13 Q: All right. Were you advised as to 14 what Mr. Slomer's function was that night? 15 A: Basically, he -- he just spoke to us 16 regarding the training levels that we had and -- and 17 whatnot. 18 Q: Did you -- did you advise him that -- 19 that all of your crew were Level I paramedics? 20 A: I -- yes, and I -- Mr. Slomer would 21 have known that. 22 Q: How would he know that? 23 A: Probably because we never had any 24 P2's. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: And, you had to be a P1 to be in a 2 vehicle, so... 3 Q: Fair enough. Did Mr. Slomer provide 4 you with any -- any indication as to what -- what your 5 role might be that evening? 6 A: Not specifically, I don't believe, 7 no. 8 Q: All right. Did he provide you with 9 any type of instruction that evening? 10 A: He -- from my notes, he indicated he 11 would be willing to assist -- assist us in the ambulance 12 if needed, and he -- he also indicated to us that we 13 would not be travelling to the scene; he would be 14 bringing patients out to us. 15 Q: All right. And the scene was 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 17 A: That's how I understood it, yes. 18 Q: And, did you understand why it was 19 that you wouldn't be going directly to the scene to pick 20 up any injured persons? 21 A: It appeared, he indicated, it would 22 be too dangerous for us and the fact that we didn't have 23 any gear. 24 Q: All right. And did he provide you 25 with any instruction in relation to medical care?


1 A: I'll just look at my notes. We just 2 -- I think he reviewed his fact that he was able to do 3 IV's and his advanced level of care. 4 Q: And, are you looking at your notes at 5 the page 2 towards the bottom? 6 A: Yes, and then again at the top of 7 page 3. 8 Q: All right. Now, did you discuss how 9 it would be, then, that -- or at least what the process 10 by which you would receive injured persons that night 11 from the Park? 12 A: Yes, he indicated he would be 13 transporting them out in the suburban vehicle that was 14 beside -- that was in the Ministry parking lot. 15 Q: And, what colour was this vehicle? 16 A: I believe it was black. 17 Q: Okay. So, he would transport -- he'd 18 go down to the scene, pick up injured persons and bring 19 them to the MNR parking lot and then transfer those 20 persons to you for transport to a hospital? 21 A: Yes. I believe he would -- he was 22 going to be at the scene. 23 Q: All right. And I also understand 24 that he borrowed a -- a piece of equipment from you? 25 A: He requested to use what's known in


1 the industry as a number 9 stretcher, a sort of portable, 2 collapsible-style stretcher. 3 Q: All right. And why did he ask for 4 that? 5 A: He said he didn't bring one with him. 6 Q: All right. So, this would be 7 something that you could take out to the scene and -- and 8 open up, put the patient on, bring him back to the black 9 suburban; is that the idea? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And, did you learn anything 12 else of significance from Ted Slomer at that time? 13 A: I can't recall anything else. 14 Q: All right. Now, how long was this 15 briefing? 16 A: I -- I can't recall the exact time, I 17 suspect it'd be two (2) to three (3) to four (4) minutes. 18 Q: All right. And, at this time -- was 19 the St. John's Ambulance crew present for this briefing? 20 A: I don't believe they were, no. 21 Q: All right. Did they arrive after the 22 briefing? 23 A: My notes indicate at this time the 24 St. John Ambulance vehicle arrived at the scene and Mr. 25 Slomer also spoke to those crew members as well.


1 Q: All right. In your presence? 2 A: I don't believe it was, no. 3 Q: Okay, fair enough. Do you know at 4 whose request the St. John's Ambulance came? 5 A: In speaking with the crew member I 6 understood that they were at the request of the OPP. 7 Q: Do you recall the -- the name of the 8 person you spoke with? 9 A: I don't recall their exact -- I -- I 10 recall the two (2) -- I believe it was Karen and -- I'd 11 have to look at my notes, exactly who the crew members 12 were. 13 Q: Does the name, "Glen Morgan" sound 14 familiar? 15 A: Could be, yes. 16 Q: All right. And, do you know who you 17 had this conversation with, a female or a male person? 18 A: I can't recall. 19 Q: All right. Fair enough. What did 20 you understand their function to be? 21 A: I just -- I think mostly I was 22 somewhat surprised to see them there, and we had a -- a 23 brief conversation. They had indicated that they had 24 been down there most of the afternoon and they -- they 25 were concerned, I believe, because I think it was the


1 Western Fair that was about to start in London that 2 weekend, so they were -- they had indicated they had -- 3 had two (2) vehicles down there. 4 And they had to get back at -- at some 5 point. I'm not sure that evening, but the next day or 6 so, to be able to respond to the Western Fair. 7 Q: All right. Are you familiar with the 8 -- or were you familiar with the qualifications of the 9 two (2) ambulance -- St. Anne -- John's ambulance 10 personnel? 11 A: No, I wasn't. 12 Q: All right. Was it your understanding 13 that they would also be transporting injured persons that 14 evening? 15 A: I didn't have any understanding of 16 either way. 17 Q: All right. Based on your experience 18 as an attendant and the operator of the Forest ambulance 19 service, are you aware of situations in which St. John's 20 ambulances actually used for an ambulance function? 21 A: Mostly any of the incidents, as I've 22 been familiar with, it's generally used as a -- a re -- a 23 standby resource or as a first aid post, more than to 24 transport people. 25 Q: All right. And did your crews did


1 anything to prepare themselves, following the 2 conversation with Ted Slomer? 3 A: We got our burn kits readily 4 available and put them -- placed them on our stretchers 5 so that in the event that they were required, we'd have 6 them immediately available. 7 Q: All right. Do you recall having any 8 conversation with any other police officer at the MNR 9 parking lot in relation to his preparations? 10 A: I recall just as we were outside the 11 vehicle, like an OPP vehicle had driven in and an officer 12 had opened his trunk and was about to put on what 13 appeared to be protective gear on his forearms and -- and 14 he had like a helmet style to put on. 15 So, I briefly asked him if we could just 16 see how they put them on, so in the event that there was 17 an injury we'd sort of need to know how to take them off. 18 So, he showed us they were basically put 19 on by velcro, you know, and he indicated he had a bullet- 20 proof vest. 21 And I also recall that I asked him if he 22 had anything like from his waist down, and he said -- he 23 replied, no, like in terms of protective gear. 24 Q: All right. And did you have 25 conversations while in the MNR parking lot concerning


1 what hospital you would transport patients to? 2 A: Later that evening, after we had 3 moved the -- the vehicles, I contacted the dispatch 4 centre; we had a cell phone. So, just brought them up 5 to speed in terms of how long we thought the incident 6 would be there, and the fact that, you know, we've got to 7 start looking at notifying the hospitals of -- in the 8 case of any injuries and I indicated that Strathroy 9 Hospital would be our closest hospital to -- to bring 10 patients to. 11 Q: All right. And based on your 12 assessment that Strathroy was the closest hospital, was 13 there a decisions made with respect to what hospital 14 patients would be transported to? 15 A: Yes, that -- I believe when I spoke 16 to the dispatch centre, it'd be Geoff Connors, he -- he 17 looked at a map as well, and then agreed Strathroy 18 Hospital was, in fact, our closest hospital. 19 Q: And was Ted Slomer's views solicited 20 at all with respect to the choice of hospital? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. Did you relay your views 23 to Mr. Slomer? 24 A: I don't believe I did. 25 Q: Okay. And what means of


1 communication did you have with Wallaceburg from your 2 ambulance? 3 A: We had portable radios as well as our 4 fixed, mounted two (2) way radio system in the vehicles. 5 Q: All right. Did you also have a cell 6 phone that night? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: Do you know which hospitals were 9 notified of the -- of the situation? 10 A: The dispatch centre informed me that 11 both Sarnia General as well as Strathroy were pre- 12 alerted. 13 Q: Now, was there any discussion with 14 respect to the -- the relative capabilities of Strathroy 15 versus Sarnia when you were discussing which hospital to 16 go to? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. And, I just want to go 19 back to -- to your ambulance incident report for a moment 20 and there appears to be a -- a diagram on the first page; 21 it's exhibit P-371? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: All right. Well, if people would


1 just go to -- oh, there it is. There it is on the 2 screen. 3 Now, there's a diagram on the first page 4 of this document; when did you prepare that diagram? 5 A: It would be -- I believe it was on 6 the 7th of September. 7 Q: Can you just point out there what -- 8 what you've drawn, what you've illustrated? 9 A: This was our initial spot here. I 10 believe it says, four five (45) where we arrived 11 initially -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- and this was four six (46) and 14 then we'd driven in this fashion, so that they're pointed 15 out -- Forest vehicle, the Watford vehicle and the St. 16 John's vehicle. 17 Q: Okay. Now, are you able to hear the 18 Witness? Okay, thank you. Just make sure you speak up-- 19 A: Yeah, I'm sorry. 20 Q: -- and turn to the speaker so we can 21 all hear you. 22 All right. And you've illustrated by 23 arrow, the movement of the ambulances and you've shown 24 initially there was 1145 and 1146, and OPP vehicles and 25 the St. John's Ambulance as well. You've also pointed --


1 there's a command centre and the suburban that you 2 referred to with respect to Ted Slomer? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: All right. All right. What happened 5 next? 6 A: I believe after we parked the 7 vehicles and had -- had got our equipment ready, I 8 remember I sat back and I was in the driver's seat of the 9 vehicle and I just basically was resting, waiting for 10 anything to come -- come up because I had obviously 11 worked the day before. 12 And I remember the crew members from the 13 Forest vehicle were sort of standing outside the -- the 14 vehicle and -- and we were just sort of talking back and 15 forth and then the police gathered and departed and 16 walked towards Ipperwash Provincial Park. 17 Q: Do you recall how many police 18 officers you saw exit the parking lot? 19 A: I -- I have to just quickly look at 20 my notes, but I believe I -- I had mentioned -- I'm sorry 21 to take so much time. 22 Q: If you go to page 3 at the bottom of 23 your report. 24 A: It was -- we observed somewhere in 25 the area between thirty (30) and forty (40) OPP officers


1 followed by a white -- two (2) white vans. 2 Q: All right. And you've indicated in 3 your notes that these were riot-dressed OPP officers. 4 Can you just explain what -- what you meant by that? 5 A: What I meant by that was with -- they 6 had their headgear on with face shields and -- and I -- I 7 believe they also had protective shields. 8 Q: All right. Did you notice whether 9 they had any batons? 10 A: I can't say I did. 11 Q: All right. And, approximately, what 12 time did you make this observation of the police officers 13 exiting the Park -- the parking lot? 14 A: I believe I made the notation at 15 10:45. 16 Q: All right. And, how is it that you 17 ascertained the time? 18 A: I'm not sure when it was done. 19 Q: Okay. It's not something that would 20 have been in the ambulance logger reports? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. So, this is a time that 23 you -- you independently recalled on the 7th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And, did you also request


1 that Wallaceburg engage another ambulance unit to be on 2 standby? 3 A: Yes, I was concerned, obviously, with 4 coverage in our -- in our Forest area of -- of coverage 5 and I had asked them to see if they could staff a third 6 vehicle and they were able to contact two (2) crew 7 members and -- and indicate it was available on standby-- 8 Q: Would -- 9 A: -- to respond. 10 Q: Would that be Unit 1505? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: With the crew members Thompson and 13 Brooks? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. And they were just to be on -- 16 on call, so to speak? 17 A: That's how I recall it, yes. 18 Q: In their homes, waiting for a call? 19 A: Yes. On a page or whatever. 20 Q: Now, did you hear any sounds over the 21 next few minutes after the -- the police officers 22 departed the parking lot? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: All right. What were the lighting 25 conditions in the parking lot area that night?


1 A: It was dark. There were no -- the 2 parking lot lights weren't -- weren't on and there was no 3 lighting. 4 Q: And what -- what was the next 5 significant event that occurred after the police exited 6 the parking lot? 7 A: The crew members that were outside 8 the vehicle indicated that they had thought they heard 9 like a popping noise, and indicated that it could have 10 been possibly gunfire. But I -- I personally did not 11 hear it. 12 Q: Now, why -- why do you think you 13 didn't hear it? 14 A: I was -- I was in the vehicle and 15 probably the two (2) way radio sometimes there's noise 16 from other vehicles on it, so. 17 Q: Okay. And what was the next 18 significant event that occurred? 19 A: I believe that an officer approached 20 the -- the crew members and indicated they'd be required 21 at the scene, and they were directed to move their 22 vehicle up towards Park -- Parkway Drive. 23 Q: So up to the exit point of the MNR 24 parking lot? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: All right. And did your vehicles 2 therefore go to the -- the exit? 3 A: The Forest vehicle did, yes. 4 Q: Yes. So 1146? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And you and the St. 7 John's vehicle stayed in your current position? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And what happened next? 10 A: The crew were then, I believe, 11 indicated that they were not to go at the scene and they 12 then returned back to their normal position. And later 13 on Ted Slomer came out and indicated there was a number 14 of -- two (2) patients I believe, at the intersection of 15 21 Highway and Army Camp Road. 16 Q: Now, just -- just before we get to 17 that event, did you also have opportunity to overhear any 18 radio communications emanating from the -- the command 19 centre at the parking lot? 20 A: Yeah. There seemed to -- there 21 appeared to be a lot of chatter but I couldn't pick up 22 anything on a particular. We thought we had heard the 23 word "ambulance" or something, but the way they chattered 24 had definitely increased from the mobile command unit. 25 Q: Just to take you back to your -- your


1 report, at page 4, you wrote, on September the 7th, that: 2 "Approximately twenty (20) to thirty 3 (30) minutes later, overheard busy, 4 excited radio transmissions coming from 5 radio command centre of possible 6 shooting." 7 Does that refresh your memory at all? 8 A: Yes. Yes. 9 Q: And can you tell me then what -- what 10 it is you heard about that? 11 A: I can't recall any exact details of 12 it, just -- that's -- that's all I put in my notes. 13 Q: All right. And the twenty (20) to 14 thirty (30) minutes later, what reference points are you 15 using? 16 A: From the time the police exited the 17 parking lot. 18 Q: All right. So somewhere between 19 11:05 and 11:15 then, or 23:05 to 23:15, you would have 20 heard this radio chatter? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Now you indicated that 23 you were next advised by Mr. Slomer, was it, that -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- there were two (2) patients in


1 need of ambulance service at -- at Highway 21 and Army 2 Camp Road? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: All right. And as a result of that 5 information, what did you do? 6 A: The -- the Forest vehicle had radioed 7 the dispatch centre -- because we're on a common channel 8 we -- you obviously could overhear what they said -- and 9 they said that they'd been requested to respond to that 10 intersection and they had two (2) -- been two (2) -- 11 request for two (2) vehicles. 12 Q: All right. And did you respond to 13 that area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did 1146, to your knowledge, 16 respond to that area? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. I'd like to direct you to 19 Tab 5, which is the ambulance logs from Wallaceburg, P- 20 345, Inquiry Document 1002002. 21 And if you would go to Front Number 9 -- 22 0009543. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: And you'll see there a list of 2 dispatch details, references 1145 and Unit 1146. It 3 indicates that 1146 notified the dispatch centre at 4 around 23:11; is that about right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And that they arrived at 7 the scene at about 23:16. Now, let me ask you, how long 8 do you think it took you to get from the MNR parking lot 9 to 21 and Army Camp Road? 10 A: I would think it'd take us six (6) or 11 seven (7) minutes to get there. 12 Q: All right. And was this a Code 4 13 call? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what speed were you therefore 16 going? 17 A: I don't believe we had any 18 impediments to us, so I think we -- we travelled quite 19 rapidly to the scene. 20 Q: And approximately what -- what would 21 your speed have been? 22 A: Probably around seventy-five (75), 70 23 miles an hour. 24 Q: And can you translate that -- 25 A: It was --


1 Q: -- into kilometres an hour? 2 A: Probably around a hundred and ten 3 (110), a hundred and 120 K's. 4 Q: Between a hundred and ten (110) and 5 120 kilometres an hour, and is that what -- what would be 6 a typical Code 4 speed with good road conditions? 7 A: With good road conditions, yes. 8 Q: All right. And perhaps we could go 9 back to the map. I'd like to go to map 1, though, 10 please. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And can -- are you able to focus in 15 on the Army Camp Base? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And can you include the -- the 20 parking lot? Yes, it's there. 21 Can you use your marker just to indicate 22 what route you took? 23 I think you need to go over to -- go over 24 to Ipperwash Road. Thanks. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: First of all, tell us the route. 4 A: Basically, we -- we turned left out 5 of the parking lot and travelled back on Parkway Drive to 6 Ipperwash Road and then, obviously, turned north to go on 7 21 Highway north -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: -- to Ipperwash. 10 Q: And you recall -- to -- to -- that 11 would be to Army Camp Road and 21? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Do you recall what corner? 14 A: Be at the intersection, you mean this 15 -- be at the intersection of Army Camp and 21 Highway. 16 Q: Do you recall which -- which corner, 17 though, in relation to the Army Camp itself? 18 A: It'd be right in this area here. 19 Q: All right. Could you mark it? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And was this on the side of the road, 24 or actually on the road? 25 A: When we -- when I arrived at the


1 scene, the Forest vehicle was already there, and I 2 believe it had its back doors already opened and was on 3 the side of the road. 4 Q: All right. And just so that I know, 5 were -- was both 1146 and 1145 on the same corner when 6 you arrived? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: They both there? Okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And put the estimated time of arrival 13 at 23:16. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Right, now when you first arrived at 18 -- well, first of all let me ask you this. Did you 19 contact Wallaceburg at all about the fact that you'd been 20 asked to go out to this destination? 21 A: No, because it was done, as I recall, 22 through the Forest vehicle that had notified them of it. 23 Q: Okay. And you overheard down the 24 com -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- sensor? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And is it -- is it normal that 4 you would receive dispatch instructions from someone 5 other than your dispatcher? 6 A: On this particular night or any 7 night, you mean, or? 8 Q: On -- in a general situation? 9 A: Generally they're through a dispatch 10 -- the dispatcher. I guess on certain occasions if 11 you're maybe to arrive at a -- at a motor vehicle 12 accident you may be directed by an OPP officer or someone 13 at the scene to sort of say, your victim has been moved 14 to a farmhouse or something like that. 15 So we would then notify dispatch that 16 we're just -- our patient is at a -- at another area 17 other than where we thought -- thought it was. 18 But it -- it's not uncommon, I guess, I 19 should say. 20 Q: All right. And on this particular 21 night did you understand that you would be taking some 22 dispatch instructions from OPP officers? 23 A: Was it my understanding? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: There was no instructions given to us


1 that they would be -- they would be dispatching us, no. 2 Q: All right. Was there any difficulty 3 in your mind with the fact that you went off to this 4 scene without first getting permission from your 5 dispatcher? 6 A: No, because we had notified our 7 dispatch centre of -- of -- of what was going on at the 8 scene. 9 Q: All right. Now, when you arrived at 10 Ipperwash -- or, sorry, at Highway 21 and Army Camp Road, 11 what did you see in front of you? What was the scene? 12 A: We had -- as I say, we came and 13 parked. I remember we parked -- we were directed to stop 14 the vehicle right on the highway directly in front of the 15 -- the Forest vehicle. And we were directed by an OPP 16 officer to remain in the vehicle. 17 Q: All right. And what could you -- 18 what, if anything could you see in front of you? 19 A: In front of us, I could -- I could 20 see the -- the Forest vehicle had already arrived and I 21 believe its rear doors were open. 22 Q: And what happened next? 23 A: We were directed to -- to stay on the 24 scene or to stay in the vehicle and -- until it was 25 secure. And then we were directed just to park the


1 vehicle on -- more or less on the shoulder of the road, 2 directly behind the Forest vehicle and exit the vehicle 3 via the passenger side door. And then we were directed 4 to -- to sort of, lay down in the ditch right beside the 5 vehicle. 6 Q: All right. And while you were down - 7 - laying down in the ditch, could you see or hear what 8 was going on closer to the intersection? 9 A: I don't recall because I think we 10 were directly in front of the vehicle, so it was 11 difficult to see. 12 Q: All right. Approximately how long do 13 you think you were in the ditch? 14 A: My notes indicate less than a minute. 15 Q: All right. And were there -- how 16 many police officers were with you in that area? 17 A: My notes indicate we had -- there was 18 two (2) officers there as well as two (2) cruisers. 19 Q: All right. What happened next? 20 A: We were then directed to -- to a -- a 21 patient that was in, I believe it was a black Firebird or 22 a black Camaro, to -- he was in the passenger side of the 23 vehicle, so we were directed to -- to see what injuries 24 he had, I guess. 25 Q: All right. And do you now know the


1 name of that person? 2 A: Yes, I believe it was Nicholus 3 Cotrelle. 4 Q: All right. And just for the record, 5 the Ambulance Incident Report relative to Nicholus 6 Cotrelle is Exhibit P-372; also Inquiry Document Number 7 5000472. 8 All right. Now, as you -- sorry, what -- 9 what did you do next? 10 A: I believe one (1) of the attendants 11 from the Forest vehicle, Mark Watt, I was watching him 12 and he rolled up, basically, the T-shirt on Mr. Cotrelle. 13 And I remember observing a small puncture wound; I didn't 14 know at the time it was a -- a bullet wound, obviously. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And because there was three (3) staff 17 there, I remember getting the stretcher out of the 18 vehicle in Forest and -- and getting any equipment the 19 crews needed. 20 Q: Now, prior to approaching this 21 vehicle, did you witness any interactions as between the 22 occupants of the car and any police officers? 23 A: Yes, I do, and if I could just 24 probably go to my notes here, quickly. 25 Q: This would be page 1 of your Nicholus


1 Cotrelle report? 2 A: Yes, I believe on the second page. 3 Q: Perhaps, on -- on the first page? 4 A: I've got it on the back page of -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- that. My notes indicate a Native 7 female stated the victim had -- had been shot and the 8 police are going to kill everyone. And then we observed 9 the male patient, obviously, in the vehicle. 10 Q: All right. And just before that 11 event, did you witness any interaction between the female 12 and the -- and the police officers? 13 A: Other than the police officers were 14 dressed in, maybe, fatigues or -- or that type of gear 15 and had rifles, which was unusual. 16 Q: Which were what? 17 A: They had rifles, which was unusual 18 for us to see. 19 Q: Okay, and when you say, "they had 20 rifles," what were they doing with their rifles at that 21 time? 22 A: I believe at that time they were 23 pointing them at the vehicle. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Just prior to our seeing it.


1 Q: And were any of the occupants out of 2 the vehicle when you saw this? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I don't recall whether they were in 7 the vehicle or out of the vehicle or not. 8 Q: Okay, thank you. In any event, then, 9 do you -- did you overhear any verbal exchange at this 10 time? 11 A: That verbal exchange that I said 12 earlier was -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- the only one. 15 Q: Okay, so you -- you go and get the 16 stretcher. I take it you didn't conduct your own 17 assessment of Mr. Cotrelle? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. And after you got the 20 stretcher, what happened? 21 A: Obviously -- obviously prepared it, 22 make sure that, you know, the blankets were taken off and 23 everything was ready. 24 And then we updated Wallaceburg dispatch. 25 Q: And did you happen to draw a diagram


1 of the -- the location of the vehicles? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: In any event, do you have the report 7 before you? It's Inquiry Document Number 5000472, and 8 it's with respect to Nicholus Cotrelle. 9 I believe it's a diagram there? 10 A: You mean the one on my incident 11 report, ma'am? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And can you just describe 15 for us, please, what you've illustrated on the first page 16 of this report? 17 A: Basically what I indicated earlier, 18 that the vehicles were parked on the -- on the shoulder 19 of the road and my -- my diagram indicates in the front 20 of the Forest vehicle that was first to arrive, there was 21 an OPP cruiser there. 22 Q: Yes, and it's on the screen now. 23 A: Okay, I'm sorry. And obviously there 24 was an OPP cruiser that you can see marked on the left of 25 the diagram.


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: And then the vehicle on the median, 3 if you want, or the merge lane, to the north of the 4 diagram indicates the victim's car. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And then later on, vehicle 1146 was 7 moved to -- to get closer to the -- the victim's vehicle. 8 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, in the course 9 of assisting 1146 with this call, did you receive any 10 further dispatch or any dispatch from the -- from 11 Wallaceburg? 12 A: From the log I -- that was given to 13 me, we up -- I updated the Wallaceburg dispatch on the 14 fact that we had had a patient at that scene and the 15 crews had -- were obviously treating him. 16 Q: All right. And did you receive any - 17 - any instructions from the Wallaceburg dispatch with 18 respect to another call? 19 A: Yes, I do, and I'll just kind of grab 20 those notes if I could. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: We -- I updated Wallaceburg dispatch, 25 I believe via my cellular phone, at the same time


1 updating them on the situation. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And that we had one (1) patient at 4 that scene. 5 Q: Now, do you recall receiving any 6 information from the Wallaceburg dispatch with -- with 7 respect to a possible call at 9780 Army Camp Road? 8 A: Yes, the -- the dispatch centre 9 indicated to us that -- that there was -- there was 10 another victim. I'm just trying to find that. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Would it assist you to go to the -- 15 the transcript of the -- the telephone calls? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you have that in front of you? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: It's Exhibit P-351, Inquiry Document 20 5000215 and would you look at page 7. It appears to be a 21 conversation between yourself and Geoff, who I assume is 22 Geoff Connors? 23 A: The page number I have is 8. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Well, why don't you look at page 7 2 first? 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Near the top? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It indicates: 7 "M. Gilpin: Yeah, that cruiser -- or 8 that Cousineau guy came over to see us, 9 he wanted us to respond to the 10 residents that you had on Army Camp 11 Road, 9780. 12 Geoff: Yeah, yeah. 13 Mr. Gilpin: There were two (2) 14 injuries there." 15 Does that refresh your memory? 16 A: I -- I remember reading it in the 17 transcript but I don't recall the incident. 18 Q: You don't recall that? 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: All right. Okay. Did you receive 21 any further dispatch from the scene? 22 A: Regarding...? 23 Q: Was there further dispatch? You're 24 at the scene, at 21 and -- 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: -- Army Camp Road -- 2 A: Yeah, we had a conversation with 3 dispatch to update them on -- on the patient that we had 4 at the scene, and that the fact that we also perhaps had 5 somebody else had been shot, and I don't recall where 6 that came from. 7 However, I recall the dispatcher talking 8 to me on the cell phone; it's obviously on page 8. 9 Q: All right. And you're looking at 10 page 8 now of Exhibit P-351, Inquiry Document 5000215? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there's a conversation between 13 Geoff and Mac, and you're -- you're Mr. -- you're Mac? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it's Geoff Connors? Okay. And 16 this is where you update him with respect to what you're 17 doing? 18 A: Yes, the fact that we had one (1) 19 victim at that scene. 20 Q: Okay. And what else did you discuss 21 during the course of this conversation with Mr. Connors? 22 A: Well, I remember he was kind of blunt 23 to me on the phone because I think that it's actually 24 busy and the fact that -- that they indicated they had a 25 gunshot wound on Nauvoo Road.


1 Q: All right. And do you recall 2 discussing what unit would be best -- in the best 3 position to respond to the call at Nauvoo Road? 4 A: I indicated to him that perhaps the 5 Thedford vehicle, 1147, perhaps could be closer. 6 Q: All right. And were you assuming, at 7 that time, that the Thedford vehicle was actually at 8 Thedford? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you know for a fact where -- 11 where the vehicle was? 12 A: No, I didn't. No. 13 Q: In any event, do you ultimately 14 receive the instruction to go to 6840 Nauvoo Road? 15 A: Yes, we did. 16 Q: And do you -- did you question that 17 instruction given your view that Thedford was closer? 18 A: No, other than -- than our initial 19 conversation. And then, on page 11 from your documents, 20 they give us a call to proceed there. 21 Q: Well, let's stick with page 9 for a 22 moment. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: There's apparently an instruction 25 from Jack; would that be Jack Knight?


1 A: Yeah. Yes. 2 Q: And it says: 3 "Code 4, Code 4 at 6840 Nauvoo Road, 4 6840 Nauvoo Road, for a gunshot wound 5 between Burnham Line and Brick Yard 6 Line." 7 Now, does that refresh your memory at all? 8 A: Yeah. It looks like he's calling 9 vehicle 1146 there. 10 Q: Right. In fact, he's asking if 1145 11 is -- is committed, and the response by 1146 is, 12 "Negative." Doesn't that mean 1145 is not committed? 13 A: He's asked: 14 "1145, are we committed?" 15 And the response from 46 comes back that: 16 "This is 1146, that's negative." 17 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And so it's 18 later on then that you actually received the -- the 19 dispatch instructions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you're referring to page 11 of 22 this transcript? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: There's a discussion between 1145, 25 that is Unit 1145 and Geoff; is that right?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And do you know approximately at what 3 time you received this call, this dispatch? 4 A: My notes indicated, I believe it was 5 twenty-three (23) -- if I just have a minute I'll just 6 look. 7 Q: Certainly. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Are you looking at your incident 12 report, at P-372? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: At 23:31, is the time I have. 16 Q: Is the time that you were directed to 17 go to Nauvoo Road; is that correct? 18 A: That's correct. That's correct. 19 Q: And how fast did you depart after 20 receiving the dispatch? 21 A: Right away, we travelled right away. 22 Q: Okay, and again this -- can you tell 23 me what the source of the -- the time is that you've put 24 into this document? 25 A: It was -- it came from Wallaceburg


1 dispatch. 2 Q: So from the log -- okay. And just 3 for the record, that'd be the log at Exhibit P-345, Front 4 Number 0009521, which indicates you were notified at 5 23:31:03 and en route by 23:32:28; is that right? 6 A: I -- I used on our -- my -- mine here 7 was, we were advised at 23:31 and we were -- and we 8 departed the scene at 23:32. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Thank you. Now were you given any 12 further information by either Wallaceburg or by the OPP 13 with respect to what injuries the patient at Nauvoo Road 14 had suffered? 15 A: I don't recall any other -- any other 16 transmissions? 17 Q: Other than just being advised that it 18 was a gunshot wound? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. So, you didn't appreciate 21 that it was a chest gunshot wound? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I don't recall getting any of those


1 instructions. 2 Q: All right. And did you form any 3 impression at the time of the dispatch as to whether or 4 not this was a -- this was related to the Ipperwash Park 5 incident? 6 A: Initially, I didn't think it was, but 7 obviously right -- we put two (2) and two (2) together 8 pretty quick, so. 9 Q: All right. Did you have concern with 10 respect to responding to a gunshot victim call, related 11 to the Ipperwash matter? 12 A: No, I didn't, I'm -- I did not. 13 Q: Why not? 14 A: It's probably a good question. I 15 didn't think of it, we were -- and obviously we wanted to 16 get to the scene as quickly as possible and didn't. 17 Q: All right. And what code was 18 assigned -- what code priority was assigned to this call? 19 A: Code 4. 20 Q: Do you recall how fast you travelled 21 that night? 22 A: I recall we were running around the 23 hundred and twenty (120) to 130 K's when we were on the 24 paved portion of the roads. 25 Q: All right. And what were the road


1 conditions that night? 2 A: Very good. 3 Q: So it was clear? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Low traffic? 6 A: Low traffic, yes. 7 Q: So fairly ideal travel conditions? 8 A: Yes, they were. 9 Q: And what route did you take? 10 A: We travelled Army Camp Road, which 11 was gravel, to the Ravenswood Line and then to Northville 12 Line. 13 Q: Okay. I wonder if we could just put 14 the map on the screen. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: This is map 1 that I'm referring to, 19 Exhibit 349. Perhaps you can just retrace that, Mr. 20 Emery. You started from Army Camp Road and Highway 21, 21 correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Then you travelled along Army Camp 24 Road which is gravel to Ravenswood? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: And then you travel along Ravenswood, 2 which is a paved road to Northville Road? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: All right. And did you then go along 5 Ravenswood -- sorry, Northville towards Towns line -- 6 Townshead? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And while you were -- and just 9 leave it for that. 10 While you were en route, did you receive 11 any further transmissions? 12 A: No, we did not. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Other than the call was cancelled 15 later. 16 Q: All right. Well, specifically, were 17 you advised by Mr. Connors at some point that -- that the 18 patient had left? 19 A: At -- when he cancelled the call, we 20 were obviously -- he had said the patient had left the 21 scene. 22 Q: Perhaps you would go to the 23 transcript of the various Wallaceburg conversations. 24 It's Exhibit P-351, Inquiry Document 5000215. And if 25 you'd go to page 11, please?


1 A: Is that in the transcript? 2 Q: Yes, the transcript. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Page 11, about halfway down, there's 5 a conversation that would appear between Geoff Connors 6 and Unit 1145. It says: 7 "Geoff: 1145 -- Unit 1145 go ahead. 8 Wallaceburg: 1145. 9 "Geoff: Evidently, your patient has 10 left the scene; been taken by a group 11 of people. We're not sure where. The 12 caller didn't see which way the car 13 left. Going to pass it on to Command 14 Post. 10-4. 15 Response from 1145: 16 "Affirmative, sir. Were the OPP not on 17 the scene for this patient? Over. 18 Geoff: Negative: 19 1145: 10-4. Do you want 1145 to 20 carry on with this call or to cancel 21 for now? Over. 22 Geoff: To carry on at this time. 23 Standby, I've got the Command Post on 24 the tape, hang on. 25 1145: 10-4."


1 Does that refresh your memory at all with 2 respect to a conversation you had with Mr. Connors 3 enroute? 4 A: This -- yes, this a conversation he 5 had with the attendant that was with me that evening. 6 Q: All right. But, you couldn't hear 7 it? 8 A: Yes. Yes, I mean he -- he was 9 speaking to -- because I was driving the vehicle, 10 obviously. 11 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And, as a result 12 of this conversation, did you stop, or did -- 13 A: No, we proceeded -- kept proceeding. 14 Q: All right. And, you indicated you 15 asked -- or somebody -- your -- your partner asked 16 whether the police were on the scene. 17 Do you know -- have any sense as to why 18 that was asked? 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: All right. Fair enough. 21 And, then do you receive a second -- does 22 your unit receive a second transmission relevant to the 23 Nauvoo Road call? 24 A: Yes, that was on page 12. 25 Q: And, what was the -- what


1 instructions did you receive at that time? 2 A: Basically, it was from the dispatcher 3 referring to our Unit Number 1145: 4 "You can cancel on the Code 4 to Nauvoo 5 Road. Cancel, I'll get back to you." 6 Q: As a result of that instruction what 7 did you do? 8 A: I remember we were still on Townshead 9 -- I'm sorry, we were still on Northville Line, so 10 because that road just approaches the intersection of 11 Nauvoo or, correction, Townshead, we just drove down to 12 the intersection to turn around rather than trying to 13 turn around on the -- on the highway -- or on the road, 14 so... 15 Q: All right. And, can you tell me how 16 far away from Townshead Line you were when you -- when 17 you received the cancellation? 18 A: I -- from what my notes indicate, we 19 were just approaching the intersection. 20 Q: So, you were very close to it? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Perhaps you would extend 23 the line, Mr. Emery, to just prior to Townshead Line and 24 mark it and would you indicate that this is the point at 25 which the cancellation of 11 -- cancellation of 1145?


1 All right. Now, approximately how many 2 minutes were you travelling at 120 to 130 kilometres and 3 hour when you received the cancellation call? 4 A: How many minutes had we -- were we 5 into the call? 6 Q: Had you been enroute from the corner 7 of Highway 21 and Army Camp? 8 A: I estimate it was somewhere between 9 twelve (12) and fourteen (14) minutes. 10 Q: All right. And, do you recall, 11 therefore, approximately what time it was when you 12 received the cancellation call? 13 A: The exact time, no. But, we had 14 recorded twenty-three (23), I believe it was fifty-four 15 (54) hours on our -- our notes. 16 Q: All right. And, was that again taken 17 from the ambulance log? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Or, from the dispatch centre. 21 Q: The dispatch. And if you would go, 22 then, to Tab 5, Exhibit P-345, Inquiry Document 1002002. 23 And if you would go, please, to Front Number 0009521. 24 And, this is the dispatch details 25 concerning the Nauvoo Road call. It indicates a


1 cancellation of 23:55; is that where you took your 2 information from? 3 A: Yeah. I don't have the front number, 4 is it 9521? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: On the -- on the form that I have, it 7 just indicates 23:31 hours. I don't see -- oh, I'm 8 sorry, later on I -- I see it now, 23:55, yes. I'm 9 sorry. 10 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 11 you were on the road for about twelve (12) to fourteen 12 (14) minutes; are you fairly certain about that? 13 A: I am now yes, because obviously we 14 travelled the route to -- 15 Q: And you were going one twenty (120) 16 to 130 kilometres an hour? 17 A: Well, except through the 18 intersections. 19 Q: Okay, fair enough. And you also 20 indicated on the gravel road, what -- what speed would 21 you have been -- 22 A: Probably around 50 miles an hour, 100 23 K's. 24 Q: Sorry? 25 A: Probably about fifty (50) miles an


1 hour. Obviously, the gravel is pretty loose on that 2 road. 3 Q: How many kilometres an hour is that? 4 A: Eighty (80). 5 Q: Okay. And according to this 6 dispatch, if you were en route by 23:32 and you received 7 the cancellation by 23:55, that represents a time of 8 about twenty-three (23) minutes; does that seem right to 9 you? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And what explanation, if 12 any, do you have for that? 13 A: That's the time that was given to us 14 by dispatch and, quite frankly, we never -- never thought 15 anymore of it. 16 Q: All right. Did you have occasion to 17 -- were you interviewed by the Office of the Chief 18 Coroner? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you recall reviewing the issue 21 of the timing with -- with that investigator? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: And what -- what, if anything, did 24 you advise him about the timing? 25 A: Well, I think he brought it to my


1 attention, that he had driven the route himself and the 2 23:54 hours didn't kind of jive with what he thought the 3 route should travel. So it was only then that, 4 obviously, I drove the route myself to -- to determine 5 that obviously 23:54 was incorrect -- or 23:55. 6 Q: All right. If you go to Tab 14 of 7 your book, it's Inquiry Document Number 5000184, it's an 8 interview of Mac Gilpin by Detective Armstrong, held on 9 February the 12th, 2003. I understand that Detective 10 Armstrong was conducting a coroner's investigation 11 relating to the events surrounding the death of Dudley 12 George. 13 And if you look at page 2 to 3 -- well, 14 first of all let me ask you, do you recall this interview 15 being recorded? 16 A: I can't say I recall it being 17 recorded, no. 18 Q: Did you have an opportunity to review 19 this document? 20 A: I've had an opportunity to review it, 21 yes. 22 Q: And does it appear to be accurate 23 with respect to what you advised the detective? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. And just, if you go over


1 to page 3, you indicate: 2 "I've recorded on my notes that we were 3 cancelled at 23:55 hours. However, 4 I've since driven that distance and 5 suspect that it's in the neighbourhood 6 of fifteen (15) minutes from the time 7 we were responding at Ipperwash Road to 8 -- at the intersection of -- we were 9 cancelled at Townshead and -- and 10 Northville Line. I am -- so I am 11 suspecting the times that we have are - 12 - that I've recorded on my 13 documentation, is incorrect, and 14 subsequently realized later that they 15 were probably recorded incorrectly. 16 They were probably given to us by 17 Wallaceburg dispatch, who must have 18 made a mistake with those times." 19 Does that refresh your memory at all? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And is that what you advised the 22 detective? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Are you able to tell us today what 25 the approximate time that you cancelled from your own


1 independent recollection? 2 A: Not from my independent recollection. 3 Obviously, just recreating it here with the notes and the 4 information, obviously you can then. 5 Q: And given that the cancellation time 6 you have assumed is incorrect, do you have any -- have 7 you formed any views with respect to the accuracy of the 8 dispatch and en-route times that were recorded in the 9 document we just looked at? 10 A: I can't speak to those, to be honest. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, while you were en route to 6840 16 Nauvoo Road, did you have any concerns for your safety 17 given that this was a gunshot victim situation? 18 A: I -- I did not, although I suspect my 19 attendant did when he asked that question. 20 Q: I'm sorry? 21 A: I did not, personally, no. 22 Q: Okay. And did you slow down your 23 speed at all as you approached the Nauvoo -- Nauvoo Road? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: Well, we -- we -- 2 Q: Prior to the cancellation? 3 A: Yeah, we didn't get to Nauvoo Road, 4 no. 5 Q: No. 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. If you had proceeded -- 8 assume that you -- if you had proceeded to 6840 Nauvoo 9 Road and seen that there was no police presence at the 10 farm, would you have held back? 11 A: I can't say. 12 Q: You can't say? You don't know one 13 way or the other? 14 A: I think you'd have to evaluate the 15 situation. 16 Q: Is there a standard protocol in place 17 with respect to how and when and under what circumstances 18 ambulance approach a gunshot situation? 19 A: Well, obviously we don't have many of 20 them in the Forest area, so I mean obviously when a crew 21 member feels that their safety's is at risk, they then 22 would wait until the police arrive. 23 Q: All right. And Mr. Connors has 24 testified that he likely would have held you back until 25 an OPP cruiser arrived at this residence.


1 If he had given you that direction, would 2 you have been obliged to follow it? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Did you receive further 5 orders from Wallaceburg with respect to what -- where to 6 go after this Nauvoo Road was cancelled? 7 A: I believe we were told to return back 8 to the -- that Ravenswood area on standby. 9 Q: Okay. And just before get there, did 10 it occur to you that you might try and find the -- the 11 patient, try to find where he had gone, so that you could 12 then transport him? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Is that something that you would -- 15 that -- that you would consider? 16 A: I guess because we're told to cancel 17 the call, like, you know, that was it for us. 18 Q: All right. Okay. Now, when you was 19 -- when you returned to Ravenswood, do you recall where 20 you next went? 21 Where was your next destination? 22 A: I think it was on a standby location 23 at Ravenswood; there's a small, sort of, a fruit stand 24 there on the west side of the road, I believe it is. 25 Q: And what's -- is it at an


1 intersection? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Which intersection? 4 A: Ravenswood Line and -- oh, I'm sorry, 5 Ipperwash Road at 21 Highway. 6 Q: Ipperwash Road at 21 Highway? All 7 right. And approximately how long did it take you to get 8 there? 9 A: Probably in the neighbourhood of 10 fifteen (15) to eighteen (18) minutes, probably, to 11 return back there. 12 Q: All right. Would you -- would you 13 remember what corner you were on? 14 A: If -- is the army camp here? This 15 way? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: So, right in the -- this parking lot 18 right here where the fruit stand is. 19 Q: All right. Thank you. And you note 20 that that's where 1145 was on standby. 21 Now -- and I'd like to take you, and I'm 22 sorry to go back and forth to the documents, but if you 23 would return to Tab 5, the Wallaceburg ambulance logs, 24 Exhibit P-345, Inquiry Document 1002002, and go to Front 25 Number 00009568.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now, this -- this is -- these are 8 dispatch details for unit 1145. It shows that the -- the 9 driver and attendants are now DiCesare and Watt? 10 A: There was a crew change made later in 11 the evening. I don't believe it was made un 12 until later on that evening -- 13 Q: All right. So, that is -- 14 A: -- or around 4:00 or 5:00 in the 15 morning. 16 Q: This log is in error; was it still 17 DiCesare and yourself? 18 A: At -- at -- around midnight, yes, it 19 would be. 20 Q: All right. And this indicates that 21 you were notified at about 23:56. Now that would follow 22 on the cancellation from Nauvoo Road at 23:55? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So, do you have any concerns with 25 respect to the accuracy of that time?


1 A: Well, obviously, they're incorrect. 2 Q: All right. And you indicated that 3 you believe you arrived at around midnight? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now do you have a specific memory of 6 that or are you relying on this record? 7 A: On the record, I believe. 8 Q: All right. This record indicates you 9 arrived at 23:57, but in any event, it would have been 10 about fourteen (14) or so minutes to get -- to get there? 11 A: I believe that's correct. 12 Q: All right. Can you add a field that 13 indicates that the en route travel time was fourteen (14) 14 minutes, approximately? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And, would you go back, I'm sorry, 19 but we might as well clean this up now, go back to the -- 20 to the Northville Road cancellation point, the entry and 21 indicate that the en route time was twelve (12) to 22 fourteen (14) minutes. 23 I believe that's what you said, wasn't it, 24 Mr. Gilpin? 25 A: Yes.


1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: Thank you. Now, approximately how 5 long were you on standby at the Ravenswood location? 6 A: I think we were there about four (4) 7 or five (5) hours that evening. 8 Q: Four (4) to five (5) hours? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And do you recall, then, 11 what happened next? 12 A: Later in the evening, obviously, our 13 conversations were around the fact that we've got to 14 start thinking about rotating crews for the -- for the 15 next morning. Obviously, we had to have the Watford 16 vehicle back to the station so it could get a fresh crew 17 in it to -- to get over the Watford for Watford in the 18 morning. 19 Q: Okay. And, as a result, what 20 happened? 21 A: We did a crew change, which put me 22 into the Forest vehicle. That particular day I would be 23 working in the Forest vehicle anyway, so we thought, 24 well, might as well get in it now and that way we've got 25 the crews straight for the morning so we can start


1 releasing some crews to get them back to the other 2 station. 3 Q: All right. So now you're in vehicle 4 11 -- or unit 1146? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And is your partner now Mr. Tedball? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And so at 11 -- in unit 1145 there 9 would now be DiCesare and Watt? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And I wonder if you could just 12 go to, again, Tab 5, front number 9571? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now this is a further log dispatch 15 details, it that shows that yourself, Mr. Tedball are 16 with 1146. 17 This explains that you were notified of a 18 dispatch at 0:44 hundred hours and that you arrived at -- 19 on scene at 1:14 a.m. You have -- do you recall this -- 20 this particular call? 21 A: I -- as I -- as it looks like here, 22 it's just a continuation -- continuing of the standby 23 location. 24 Q: Okay. So does this, perhaps, reflect 25 when you actually changed partners?


1 A: It could be, yes. 2 Q: All right. Did you receive any 3 further Ipperwash related calls that evening? 4 A: I -- I believe it was around five 5 o'clock in the morning, I don't have the details in front 6 of me, there was a patient that had to be moved on 7 Richardson Drive into St. Joseph's Hospital in Sarnia. 8 Q: And do you recall what the 9 circumstances of the removal where? 10 A: He was an elderly patient that we 11 were familiar with, that really had not been out of his 12 residence for some time and he generally had shortness of 13 breath issues. So he had -- I believe it was Dr. Bernie 14 (phonetic) had requested he be transported into St. 15 Joseph. 16 Q: Did you understand that -- that he 17 had -- what did you understand the reason for him having 18 to be moved from his house was? 19 A: I believe they were doing an 20 evacuation of the residences that were surrounding that 21 area. 22 Q: All right. And if you would go to, 23 again, Tab 5, and front number 0009582, "Dispatch Details 24 Record," referencing the patient's name Burton (phonetic) 25 and -- and an address of 9680 Richardson Drive; is that


1 the call? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Indicates that yourself and Mr. 4 Tedball were notified at about 5:27 a.m.; does that seem 5 about right to you? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that you arrived at the scene at 8 5:31 from -- from the Ravenswood standby location? 9 A: I believe it was, yes. 10 Q: And it looks like you didn't depart 11 until about 5:56 a.m.; is that about right? 12 A: That's correct, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And there was some delay in -- 14 in removing this patient? 15 A: A certain anxiety with the patient, 16 and I believe there was a -- a relative that wanted to 17 accompany as well. And it was sort of routine pick-up. 18 Q: All right. And I see that -- was 19 this person transported to Sarnia General? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And it was on a Code 4? 22 A: Yes. We had upgraded the call, I 23 believe, en route because his shortness of breath 24 appeared to be getting worse. 25 Q: And you arrived at the hospital


1 approximately an hour and a half later; is that right? 2 A: It says here 6:34, yes. 3 Q: But how -- how long would it normally 4 take you to get from Richardson to -- to Sarnia? 5 A: Probably about forty (40) minutes, I 6 think. 7 Q: About forty (40) minutes. So does 8 that suggest to you that this time is wrong? 9 A: No it's four (4) plus -- so, it's 10 showing thirty-eight (38) minutes. 11 Q: Yes, okay. Thank you very much. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And did you receive any -- well, let 16 me ask, can we go back to your -- your Ambulance Incident 17 Report, please, and it's Exhibit 372, Inquiry Document 18 5000473. And would you go to the last page of that 19 report, please. 20 You've indicated at the top that prior to 21 the pick-up of Mr. Burton you had a meeting -- a meeting 22 with the -- with the Strathroy crew on standby duty? 23 A: Well, I -- I believe they were at our 24 same location; I'm not sure if it was a meeting or not 25 though.


1 Q: Okay. And that was at approximately 2 12:30 a.m. that you had this meeting at the standby 3 location at Ravenswood? 4 A: When we initially arrived at that 5 scene after being cancelled, I believe we met the 6 Strathroy vehicle there. 7 Q: Okay. I'm just trying to ascertain 8 where you -- where you got the time 12:30 a.m., it might 9 give us an anchor. 10 A: I -- I can't say if they arrived 11 after we arrived or, you know. 12 Q: No, but did you look at your watch? 13 Do you have a specific -- did you have a specific 14 recollection of that time when you wrote this report, or 15 did you get it from other -- some other source? 16 A: I can't say. 17 Q: All right. And it looks -- here it 18 also indicates that: 19 "At 5:07 in the morning, 1145 and 1505 20 returned to Forest and 1146 proceeded 21 to the MNR parking lot, met by 1147." 22 Do you recall any of that? 23 A: I don't recall it, no. 24 Q: Okay. Can we go, please, to Tab 7, 25 it is Inquiry Document Number 5000195, and this appears


1 to be a -- a list of the central ambulance communications 2 centre staff who were involved in the Ipperwash matter on 3 September the 6th, 1995. 4 And do you recognize, then, or can you 5 confirm for us that units 1146, 1145, 1147 and 1505 were 6 units that you know to have been engaged that evening 7 with those crew members? 8 A: I can't speak for te 1147 vehicle. 9 It wasn't one that was under -- I didn't operate that. 10 Q: Okay. But the other three (3)? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Can we make that the next 13 exhibit, please? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-373, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-373. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-373: Document 5000195 CACC staff 18 involved (standby request of 19 September 11/'95 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: To your knowledge were any ambulance 23 units used to transport injured OPP officers to a 24 hospital that evening? 25 A: I have no knowledge of it, no.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, subsequent to September the 7th, 4 did you continue to -- sorry, did you have an exchange 5 with respect to the provision of ambulance services to 6 people located at what was formerly the army base? 7 A: In exchange with? 8 Q: With -- with the police. 9 A: The next day you mean, or? 10 Q: Later on. 11 A: Perhaps, yes. 12 Q: Would you kindly look at Tab 12. 13 This is inquiry document number 2000861. It appears to 14 be logs that were prepared by the -- the OPP. 15 But if you look at it it's dated October 16 7th, 1995. There's an entry at 11:57 on that day 17 indicating that: 18 "A letter was received from Mac Gilpin, 19 Forest ambulance, stating that the 20 ambulance will not enter Camp 21 Ipperwash. Any victims will have to be 22 taken to the front entrance. Inspector 23 Carson advised that the First Nations 24 officers are to be dispatched to any of 25 these occurrences."


1 Now, does that refresh your memory? 2 A: I remember reading it from the book 3 that was provided to me, but I don't recall the incident, 4 no. 5 Q: You don't recall having a con -- 6 well, did you have a concern about sending ambulances 7 into the army camp after September the 6th, 1995? 8 A: Certainly we did, yes. 9 Q: All right. And what was the nature 10 of your concern? 11 A: Obviously for the safety of the 12 crews. 13 Q: And as a result, did you put into 14 place any arrangements that would facilitate timely 15 ambulance service if -- to any injured persons located on 16 the army camp base? 17 A: The reason I'm questioning it is 18 that, generally, our response area from Forest to Camp 19 Ipperwash, we really wouldn't have done that, it 20 generally would have been serviced by the Thetford 21 vehicle. 22 Q: I understand that, but clearly you 23 turned your mind to this? 24 A: Pardon? 25 Q: You turned your mind to this


1 possibility that -- 2 A: Yes, obviously. 3 Q: -- you could be called in. 4 A: If Thetford was out, we would have 5 been first up into it. 6 Q: And did you then make an arrangement 7 for the timely transport of -- of injured persons 8 involving your service and the police? 9 A: Obviously there was a conversation 10 from -- from this document you're indicating to me, yes. 11 Q: Do you have any recollection of what 12 the arrangement was? 13 A: No, I don't, unless it, you know, 14 would have been obviously the patients would be moved to 15 the gate. 16 Q: And why -- what formed the basis of 17 your concern that -- that -- that your ambulance 18 attendants could be in an unsafe situation if they went 19 into army camp base? 20 A: I can't say, because this -- this -- 21 it looks like it's October of 80 -- of 1995, so it's 22 obviously a month after the incident. 23 So, I'm not sure of the -- of the -- 24 whether there was an occurrence down there that -- that 25 maybe was with another ambulance crew or whether it was


1 direction from the fire department or there was some 2 discussion that was ongoing with the OPP or not; I can't 3 say. 4 Q: Well, do you remember why you had a 5 concern for the safety of your ambulance attendants? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: All right. And what's the situation 8 today then, do you know? If --if ambulance service has 9 to be delivered to the army camp base, do you know if 10 there's a protocol in place or what the arrangements are? 11 A: I'm not familiar with any -- I 12 haven't operated this service since 2000, so. 13 Q: I appreciate that, all right. I'd 14 like to make that document the next exhibit, please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-374, Your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 374. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-374: Document 2000861 OPP logs 19 October 07/'95 07:58 hours to 20 12:51 hours. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Now, Mr. Gilpin, reflecting back with 24 the knowledge you now have to the events of September the 25 6th and 7th, 1995, what could have been done to improve


1 the efficiency of the ambulance service that night? 2 A: Obviously we've had a lot of time to 3 reflect on it. I -- I think had we had some 4 communication prior to the incident, in other words, had 5 we had some meetings prior to going out there so we knew 6 what the incident really was. That particular evening it 7 was really the luck of the draw that we were able to 8 staff three (3) vehicles -- two (2) additional vehicles 9 other our normal one. 10 So, I mean, it was really just the fact 11 that we were fortunate the guys were home that evening 12 and were willing to work. And had we known beforehand, I 13 -- I think then we could have staffed the vehicles and, 14 you know, and -- but we were very fortunate that evening. 15 But it would have been nice to -- we never had a -- sort 16 of a briefing before the incident and there was never a 17 debriefing after the incident. 18 Q: All right. And that would have been 19 also an advisable thing to do, to learn from this 20 experience and... 21 A: Very much so. 22 Q: And have you had any thought with 23 respect to the fact that you weren't permitted to go down 24 to the -- the Park to transport any persons from the Park 25 had they been injured; any thoughts around what -- what


1 might facilitate that in the future, that is, going into 2 that kind of a location? 3 A: Probably, I think, that would have 4 came out during, you know, maybe a -- a briefing period, 5 that we would have been -- rather than know just, you 6 know, two (2) or three (3) minutes before that we 7 wouldn't be entering that area. So we -- you know, it 8 would have been nice to have been able to say, Well who's 9 going be there, what arrangements are being done. 10 Q: Would it hamper your ability to -- to 11 perform your service as paramedic by -- by wearing, for 12 example, protective gear, which then might enhance your 13 ability to go to this type of a -- of a site? 14 A: I -- I think generally most of the 15 current members would say, If we've got to wear 16 protective gear perhaps maybe we shouldn't be in this 17 situation. Because none of them have really been trained 18 in any -- any of those methods, if you could call it 19 that. 20 Q: Would it have been of assistance that 21 -- that evening to have had an advanced -- advanced level 22 training -- trained paramedics? 23 A: Well, advanced care is always -- 24 always helpful I guess you could say. But the cases that 25 we dealt with, I believe a P-1 could easily handle them.


1 Q: All right. Thank you, Mr. Gilpin. 2 That concludes my examination-in-chief, 3 Commissioner. It's just about 12:15. Perhaps we could 4 canvass Counsel for their estimates on cross-examination. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll do the 6 usual canvassing, please, and then we'll break for lunch. 7 Yes, Mr. Rosenthal...? 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Perhaps thirty-five 9 (35) minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thirty-five 11 (35) minutes. 12 And Mr. Ross...? 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Probably ten (10) 14 minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 16 Tuck-Jackson...? 17 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Probably ten 18 (10) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 20 Jones...? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Fifteen (15) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 23 O'Marra...? 24 MR. AL O'MARRA: Ten (10) to fifteen (15) 25 minutes range.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) to 2 fifteen (15). All right. We'll break for lunch now. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. Thank you, 4 Commissioner. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 6 adjourned until 1:30. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 12:13 p.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 1:32 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon, 14 Commissioner. I -- I know I closed my Examination-in- 15 Chief, but over the lunch I realized that I had neglected 16 to introduce a document into evidence that I'd like to do 17 and -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- perhaps I'll just 20 hand it up. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is the 22 document? 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: I'm showing -- Mr. Gilpin, I'm


1 showing to you a document called an Ambulance Call Report 2 and it's in reference to the patient Nick Cottrelle. 3 If you look on the second page there 4 appears to be a signature; can you identify that 5 signature as yours? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And this appears to have 8 some time values assigned to it with respect to the 9 attendants at Army Camp Road and Highway 21. It 10 indicates that the call received at 23:11, crew notified 11 at 23:11, crew mobile at 23:11 and then arrived at scene 12 23:16. And, the next piece of information is arrived at 13 patient 23:18 and then departed scene at 23:32. 14 Did you fill out this form? 15 A: No, it was completed by the 16 attendant. 17 Q: Mr. Dicesare? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. In your presence? 20 A: I -- I can't recall. 21 Q: But you signed it? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, therefore did you review it? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And is the information in contained


1 accurate? 2 A: To the best of my knowledge. 3 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 4 next exhibit, Commissioner. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-375, Your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-375. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-375: Ambulance call report re: 9 Nick Cottrelle September 10 06/'95 documented by C. 11 DiCesare 12 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. Gilpin. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 16 Rosenthal is first. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 22 A: Good afternoon. 23 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm one 24 (1) of the Counsel for Aazhoodena and George Family 25 Group, a group of people from Stoney Point First Nations.


1 Now, sir, you told us that you were asked 2 by the Ontario Provincial Police to have an ambulance 3 available for standby at Ipperwash Park on the day before 4 this occurrence on September 5th, 1995? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: Now, what reason was given to you for 7 the request that there be an ambulance stand by on that 8 day? 9 A: I -- in my notes, I don't have one 10 and I don't recall it because at the time I remember I 11 was on duty and I was with a patient at -- actually at 12 Four Counties Hospital and to speed the process up I had, 13 I believe, it's Dan Grant directly call Doug Arbour in 14 London to give him the -- the heads up on it. 15 Q: Yes, so you asked him to do that 16 because you were busy with other matters? 17 A: Well and I knew that the approval 18 process would -- would have to go through Mr. Arbour, so 19 I thought, you know, there's no sense me. 20 Q: But, you understood that the 21 ambulance was requested with respect to some interaction 22 between the Ontario Provincial Police officers and First 23 Nations people who were occupying Ipperwash Park, is that 24 correct? 25 A: It's fair to say I suspected an


1 issue, yes. 2 Q: But at the time, Officer Grant would 3 have given you some indication, presumably, as to why you 4 need -- he needed the ambulance; is that correct? 5 A: I don't -- excuse me, I don't recall 6 him telling me what the exact issue was, no. 7 Q: Not only the exact issue, you don't 8 recall anything about this? 9 A: I just recall that it was a request 10 for standby of a vehicle for down in the -- in the 11 Ipperwash area. 12 Q: I see, thank you. Then moving to the 13 next day, and -- and we do all appreciate, sir, that it 14 is ten (10) years later and -- 15 A: Certainly. 16 Q: -- it's very difficult to recall 17 things. And with respect to your conversation with 18 Officer Lacroix in the MNR parking lot, you told Ms. 19 Vella when she was asking you questions that you don't 20 recall it very well, and you read some excerpts from your 21 notes to help in the recollection. 22 Now, you did, however, speak about that 23 more also on September 22nd, 1995 evidently, to the SIU 24 and that's your Tab 9, I believe. I believe it's been 25 made an exhibit, but I don't recall the exhibit number.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't think I did. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, it was not made 3 an exhibit, okay. Well, perhaps I shall be making a 4 request that it be made an exhibit. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: In any event, sir, I should like to 8 refer you to some portions of that, to see if it helps to 9 refresh your memory or if any -- in any event, you will 10 agree that -- 11 A: Certainly. 12 Q: -- that was your best evidence at 13 that time. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: So this is at your Tab 9 and the 18 document number, I believe, is 1002477. It might occur 19 more than once under different document numbers. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have a 21 different document number for it, if I'm looking at the 22 same -- 23 THE REGISTRAR: We have 2288. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, it may occur 25 more than once, as I indicated, so I'm happy to go --


1 what was that number? 2 THE REGISTRAR: Do you want it as an 3 exhibit, sir? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, it is an 5 exhibit, is it? 6 THE REGISTRAR: It isn't. Do you want it 7 as an exhibit, sir? 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I shall be 9 requesting it, after a bit more examination, that we do 10 make an exhibit, sir, thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But the 12 document that I'm referring to is 1002288. Is that the 13 same document? That's fine. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: In any event, sir, you have it at Tab 19 9; is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this is an interview that you 22 participated in on September 22nd, 1995; is that correct, 23 sir? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I believe you indicated to Ms.


1 Vella you do recall being interviewed at around that 2 time; is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you also have reviewed this 5 transcript of the interview and you agree that it is 6 likely an accurate transcript of what you said at that 7 time, sir? 8 A: As best as I can recall, yes. 9 Q: Yes. And you would have, of course, 10 told as accurately as you could have to that interviewer, 11 what you recollected about the events; is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: With that background, then, Mr. 14 Commissioner, I would request that this be made an 15 exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-376, your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-376. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-376: Document 1002288 anticipated 20 evidence of Malcom Gilpin 21 September 22/'95 interview 22 with investigators bob Muir 23 and Jim Kennedy SIU 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL:


1 Q: And then, sir, on the question of 2 your conversation with Officer Lacroix in the MNR parking 3 lot, I would request that you turn to page 2, and I'll 4 read some portions of page 2, if I may. 5 Beginning on the fourth line: 6 "We were met by, I believe it was Staff 7 Sergeant Wade Lacroix from the Petrolia 8 OPP. I dealt with Wade before so I 9 recognized him as well. 10 We just kind of basically asked him, 11 you know, how long we going to be out 12 there and, you know, what -- ", excuse 13 me, "-- the circumstances we -- they 14 are and what not. And he kind of 15 brought us up to -- brought us up to 16 speed in terms of, apparently, in the 17 afternoon there was an OPP cruiser 18 damaged and that they were trying to 19 move some barricades that afternoon, 20 and apparently that evening they'd been 21 replaced and it there another vehicle, 22 I think it was maybe damaged, so he 23 said that his mission that night wasn't 24 to -- wasn't to remove the natives from 25 the Park, it was just to remove these


1 barricades and he didn't think it was 2 going to be very long." 3 Now, sir, does that help to bring back 4 that conversation a bit, to you? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Now, the barricades that he was 7 talking about there, did you understand as you 8 communicated this information that what you had been told 9 by the officer was that these barricades had been placed 10 by the First Nations people? 11 A: That was my understanding, yes. 12 Q: And they were barricades that the 13 officers didn't want there and their mission was to 14 remove those barricades; that's what you understood? Is 15 that correct? 16 A: That's what the notes say, yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And -- and it says: 21 "Were trying to move some barricades 22 that afternoon and apparently that 23 evening they had been replaced." 24 Does that mean the barricades had been 25 removed and then replaced, or what did you mean by that,


1 sir? 2 A: I'm not sure if it -- if it refers to 3 barricades that had been placed earlier that perhaps the 4 police had removed and then perhaps the barricades were 5 put back in place. I'm not really exactly sure. 6 Q: I see. Okay. And -- and then, as I 7 read earlier, you -- you report the officer reporting to 8 you that: 9 "It was just to remove these 10 barricades, he didn't think it was 11 going to be very long. And so I 12 thought, well that should be good." 13 You worked and you were tired and so on, 14 so you were glad that this apparently was going to be a 15 simple operation and it wouldn't take very long? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, later on on that page you -- 18 when you continue your report of what happened in the MNR 19 parking lot, about ten (10) lines from the bottom, the 20 line begins with "Laugh" -- I won't read the laugh -- but 21 then the end of that line states: 22 "One of the attendants asked him a 23 little bit about pepper spray and then 24 he talked about some firearms, and I 25 could tell he wasn't too concerned


1 about pepper spray at that stage of the 2 game, was, you know." 3 So let me stop there and ask you, with 4 respect to that sentence, am I correct in interpreting it 5 that the attendants were asking him as to what weapons 6 the police might employ, pepper spray being a weapon that 7 police sometimes deploy, and in response to that 8 discussion he talked about -- he discounted the pepper 9 spray and talked about firearms? 10 A: I don't recall the question. It 11 wasn't one that I -- if I -- if you look at my notes or 12 my statement, it came from another attendant that was at 13 the scene. 14 Q: Yes. But you overheard it, I mean -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I'm just trying to understand 17 what you meant when you reported it this way to the SIU: 18 "One of the attendants asked him a 19 little bit about pepper spray and then 20 he talked about some firearms." 21 I'm -- I'm suggesting to you that the 22 context suggests that the attendant was asking about what 23 the police were going to use, because pepper spray is 24 something that is rarely used by non-police officers; is 25 that fair?


1 A: I can't say it's a fact or not, no. 2 Q: But, I mean, your understanding at 3 the time was that the attendant was asking what the 4 police might use, or what was your -- or did you have -- 5 A: I think there was some concern on -- 6 on one of the staff members saying, you know, Is pepper 7 spray going to be perhaps used, you know, I think they 8 were thinking about in terms of treatment if that was the 9 case. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: You -- you know, I think it's fair to 12 say my reaction in my notes did seem to indicate it that 13 didn't seem to be something that was going to be 14 utilized. 15 Q: Yes. So, you got the understanding 16 from Officer Lacroix that they were not going to be using 17 pepper spray that evening? 18 A: That was my -- 19 Q: And then -- 20 A: -- my assumption it was. 21 Q: And then you continue there: 22 "You know, I did ask him point-blank 23 about the potential firearms, and he 24 indicated he thought there maybe some 25 in the Park. So, you know -- you know,


1 you could tell, you know, that there 2 was probably a confrontational thing 3 that may develop." 4 So you -- you then -- apparently you, 5 specifically, after hearing the other person ask a 6 question and hearing the answer from Officer Lacroix, you 7 followed up on the question of firearms with a question 8 of your own; is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And he responded that he thought 11 maybe some of the First Nations People had some in the 12 Park; is that -- is that what you meant to convey? 13 A: Yeah -- 14 Q: Or it was that the officers had some? 15 A: Let me read it: 16 "He indicated he thought that maybe 17 some in the Park. So, you know -- you 18 know, you could tell, you know, that 19 there was probably a confrontational 20 thing that could develop." 21 Well, obviously, if they were talking 22 about firearms, yes. 23 Q: Yes. But, did you understand him to 24 be talking about firearms that the First Nations People 25 may have had or that the officers had or both?


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I can't say other than to say that 4 that statement says they thought there may -- may be some 5 in the Park, so... 6 Q: So, you can't assist any further with 7 the interpretation of that? 8 A: I -- I don't feel comfortable with 9 it, to be frank. 10 Q: I'm sorry? 11 A: I don't feel comfortable, because I 12 really don't -- I'm going by what the documents say and 13 not with -- 14 Q: Yeah. Yes, but -- 15 A: -- with my memory. 16 Q: -- you have the advantage over the 17 rest of us that you know yourself better than we know you 18 and you might be able to assist us as to what you meant-- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- but if you can't, that's fine, 21 too. 22 Now, continuing further on that page, 23 we're on page 3, now, of this document, around -- almost 24 halfway down, it says: 25 "I asked him, I remember, if he had


1 shock pants to put on in case, you 2 know, I figured he'd need those." 3 And, what did you mean, sir, "by shock 4 pants?" 5 A: Shock pants generally go on -- 6 they're obviously a P2 skill that -- that were used, 7 like, to keep the blood into the upper abdomen. You 8 know, in other words, they'll put pressure on the legs 9 and the extremities -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- to, you know, so that the -- the 12 blood can be brought up to the abdomen area. 13 Q: Are they also sometimes called, "MAST 14 trousers" or something like that? 15 A: Yes, that's correct, that's correct. 16 Q: I see, so those are two (2) different 17 words for the same kind of pants? 18 A: I believe so, yeah. Yeah. 19 Q: And, those are a kind of pants that 20 are applied by someone giving emergency assistance to 21 someone on the legs in order to increase pressure -- 22 blood pressure -- in the upper part of the body by 23 closing down the legs in some way; is that a rough lay 24 description? 25 A: That -- that is how I understand it,


1 but -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- I had never been trained in them, 4 I've just, you know -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- read an article or two (2) on 7 them. 8 Q: But, the reason that you asked about 9 that was because of the possibility of gunshot wounds and 10 your understanding that shock pants or MAST trousers or 11 whatever might be useful in saving a life after a gunshot 12 wound, right? 13 A: I can't say why I asked it, I think 14 it was just whether -- in terms of what equipment he had, 15 in terms of whether he had it -- had that or a 16 defibrillator or mast pants. 17 Q: I see. Okay. Now, continuing 18 further down in that statement, a couple of lines 19 further: 20 "I said, okay. So, then I started 21 reminding him that all the staff were 22 out there -- that were out there were 23 trained in semi-automatic 24 defibrillators that we carry." 25 So, that -- that included yourself was --


1 you were trained in a semi-automatic defibrillator; is 2 that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, you would have had such 5 available in your ambulance that evening? 6 A: That's correct 7 Q: And, you were informing the officer 8 of that in case it was required? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, the defibrillator -- the semi- 11 automatic defibrillators are for similar purposes as all 12 defibrillators, to deal with a -- a heart that's in 13 ventricular fibrillation or some such -- 14 A: A semi-automatic will pick up a 15 certain heart rhythm that's -- it's in terms of the -- 16 the defibrillator, it's a shockable rhythm. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: So, therefore, it'll -- it'll pick up 19 and shock. 20 Q: But, it would actually defibrillate 21 in addition to -- 22 A: It deliver shock or defibrillate, 23 yes. 24 Q: Yes. Now, if you could turn to page 25 5, please, of the same document, approximately a little


1 bit above the middle of the page, the sentence I wish to 2 read follows the phrase that begins, "We're", in the 3 left-hand column: 4 "We're happy with that." 5 Also -- and then: 6 "Staff Sergeant Wade --" 7 That's Wade Lacroix, I gather sir, and his 8 first name is Wade and the last name Lacroix; is that 9 correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: "Staff Sergeant Wade indicated his 12 concern -- concern with a possible fire 13 problem, like, maybe a fireball or he 14 said, I'm mostly concerned with fire. 15 So, I said listen, we have all first 16 aid, you know, burn kits in the 17 vehicle." 18 So, you understood that he was saying the 19 main concern that he had was a possible attack by First 20 Nations people using fireballs in some way; is that what 21 you understood? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: As opposed to, for example, firearms? 24 A: It talks about a fireball, yes. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, when you were in the MNR parking 4 lot, sir, were you cautioned to the effect that your 5 being positioned there was confidential and you should -- 6 you should be careful about radioing that, because it 7 might be picked up by scanners, and they didn't want 8 people to know that there was a gathering in the MNR 9 parking lot? 10 A: I don't recall being cautioned about 11 using radio traffic, no. 12 Q: I see. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, you told us that you saw at one 17 point, a number of officers leave that parking lot and 18 proceed towards Ipperwash park; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And I believe you told us that you 21 estimated that it was between thirty (30) and fifty (50) 22 officers? 23 A: I believe I said thirty (30) to forty 24 (40) but I -- 25 Q: Thirty (30) to forty (40)?


1 A: -- my notes. 2 Q: I see, okay. And -- but you also 3 said they were followed by two (2) white vans? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And what were those vans? What kind 6 of vans were they? 7 A: I don't recall the -- you mean the 8 brand of van or... 9 Q: Well, were they identified as -- they 10 weren't ambulances were they? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Were they identified as police 13 vehicles in some way, do you recall? 14 A: I don't recall, sir. 15 Q: I see. And do you recall if there 16 were a number of officers in those vans or just -- just 17 drivers or what? 18 A: I just -- in my notes, I recall just 19 two (2) white vans followed the officers. 20 Q: And you can't now take your mind back 21 and assist us any further than that? 22 A: No, I can't sir. 23 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, as the 24 officers were moving out of the parking lot, were they 25 sort of marching in a military-type formation?


1 A: Appeared to be, yes. 2 Q: Yes. So, in several rows and 3 marching in a military fashion? 4 A: Well, it was certainly dark that 5 evening at 9:30 to ten o'clock, so I -- in where -- you 6 know some distance from them, but I do recall that type 7 of formation but I can't recall how many rows or I can't 8 recall -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- you know -- 11 Q: Certainly, thank you. Now, with 12 respect to -- moving ahead then, in the evening to the 13 time when you were dispatched to Army Camp Road and 14 Highway 21. 15 Now, if I understood your evidence 16 correctly, sir, you told us that it was your 17 understanding that the other vehicle notified the 18 ambulance dispatch that you were leaving that area and 19 departing to Army Camp Road; is that correct? 20 A: That's correct. They were right in 21 front us; they were only five (5) or six (6) feet from 22 us. 23 Q: I see. Now, we've had evidence from 24 Mr. Knight who was the dispatcher on that evening, that 25 he was unaware of you and the other vehicle leaving for


1 that location at Army Camp Road and Highway 21 until 2 later on when he got in contact with you when you were at 3 that location. 4 Now, can you give us an explanation for 5 that, then, sir? 6 A: No, I can't, because we had a number 7 assigned to the call. 8 Q: And I don't believe that the 9 transcript of calls that we have reflects either you or 10 the companion ambulance -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 12 minute, Mr. Rosenthal. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I may be wrong. 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, Mr. 15 Commissioner. You may recall that, in my cross- 16 examination of Mr. Connors, I took him to page 5 of that 17 transcript. 18 And I'm sorry, I don't know -- have the 19 exhibit number right at hand, but he agreed when I took 20 him to the passage that clearly was confirmation that the 21 unit was conveying to the dispatcher that they were about 22 to go to that intersection. 23 It appears at page 5 of the transcript. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I'm going to 25 look for page 5, with your indulgence, sir.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'll give 2 you a chance to look for it. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Sir, for your assistance, I do 8 believe that this transcript is one of the documents you 9 have at Tab 3. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we get 11 it on the screen? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: My Friend points out that this is 17 Exhibit P-351, sir. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now, it appears on this page 5 there 22 doesn't appear to be any notation, 1146; is that correct? 23 A: Are you referring to -- is it Front 24 Number 2686? Page... 25 Q: 2666 is what -- is on the --


1 A: 2666. 2 Q: -- right-hand -- the upper right-hand 3 page number is 2666? I don't know if I said the right 4 number. The page 5 that I was referring to was at the 5 bottom on page 5. 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 8 a copy of it there, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 9 THE WITNESS: 2666? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, the 11 page number at the top right-hand side is 2666. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've got it now. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the 14 bottom it's page 5 and the top left it's something else 15 so, it's understandable. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: Now, my Friend Ms. Tuck-Jackson 19 points out that, actually, if you continue to the next 20 page, page 6, Jack says: 21 "Okay, sounds, 1146 go ahead." 22 And then 1146 it reads: 23 "1146, 1145, 10-8 Code 4 to the -- and 24 Jack at the main entrance." 25 So, they're both heading up Army Camp main


1 entrance. I -- I believe I stand corrected by My Friend. 2 Sorry, Mr. Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: Now, I should like to look at that 9 same transcript for an additional purpose and when I say 10 a page number, sir, I'm referring to the small typed page 11 numbers at the bottom -- 12 A: All right. 13 Q: -- so, page 7 there, please. About 14 five (5) lines down there is an attribution to you, it 15 says: 16 "M. Gilpin: Yeah, that Cruiser or 17 that Cousineau guy came over to see us. 18 He wanted us to respond to that 19 residence that you had on Army Camp 20 Road, 9780." 21 And, attributed to Geoff: 22 "Yeah, yeah." 23 Attributed to you: 24 "There were two (2) injuries there." 25 And then the conversation continues:


1 "Geoff: Hang on, Mac, hang on." 2 Ambulance, then OPP. 3 Now, sir, when the conversation continued 4 there, you would have been on the radio still; is that 5 correct? 6 A: Is -- is there a time on that -- 7 that's with that or... 8 Q: We've had great difficulty trying to 9 understand the times of these tapes, sir, and with 10 several witnesses; it's very, very difficult, I believe, 11 not only for me, but for anyone to tell what times these 12 transcripts were recording, but -- 13 A: I -- I did read the transcript and -- 14 and I -- I can't really make any reference to it. I 15 can't remember whether this was a cellular telephone 16 call; I can't remember whether it was on the radio. 17 Q: Well, perhaps I could assist you a 18 bit with the context, which might help to refresh your 19 memory in addition to your words as transcribed here. 20 We understand that the address 9780 is 21 actually the Park store at what was then Ipperwash Park. 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And, we understand that persons were 24 on the telephone at that Park store trying to seek 25 ambulance assistance right after Mr. Dudley George was


1 shot. And so now, let me fasten then, before I continue, 2 on your words: 3 "Yeah, that Cruiser or that Cousineau 4 guy came over to see us. He wanted us 5 to respond to that residence that you 6 had on Army Camp Road, 9780." 7 So first off, did you know of an officer 8 named Cousineau? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: You don't -- you don't now recollect 11 that name at all? 12 A: I've obviously heard his name in some 13 testimony but -- 14 Q: But you don't now recall? 15 A: -- I really don't know. 16 Q: Do you recall some officer indicating 17 to you that there was something else to respond to other 18 than the -- you've already told us about responding to 19 the injuries of Nicholus Cottrelle at the Army Camp Road 20 and Highway 21, and later on responding to the 21 possibility of getting a patient at Nauvoo Road. 22 Do you recall some officer telling you 23 something about a third possible site of injuries? 24 A: No, I do not recall that, sir. 25 Q: And then Jeff says: "Yeah, yeah."


1 And you -- and you respond: "Apparently 2 there were two (2) injuries there." 3 And we know from evidence we've heard at 4 this Inquiry that what -- what must have been -- being 5 referred to there is the injuries to Dudley George and 6 the injuries to Nicholus Cottrelle, both of which had 7 occurred near that location. 8 Now, with that assistance, sir, can you 9 take your mind back at all to that? 10 A: I -- I must admit I -- I've read the 11 transcript a number of times and I -- I don't remember 12 any reference to -- to that officer or being directed to 13 that -- that residence or that location. 14 Q: Well, generally then, sir, if -- if 15 this transcript is accurate or roughly accurate and the 16 conversation continued as it did, apparently with an OPP 17 officer getting into the conversation, you would have 18 been on the line; is that fair to say? 19 A: I'm not sure whether it was a 20 cellular call or even the location of where this call was 21 placed from. 22 Q: Yes. But -- but generally if -- 23 well, let me put it this way, the dispatcher would not 24 have cut you off without saying something after you 25 reported to him about somebody, an OPP officer requesting


1 that you attend to a certain call, right? 2 You -- you would still be on the line 3 presumably at this point, afterward; is that correct? 4 A: I -- I really can't tell you much 5 about this, to be honest. I -- I've read it myself and I 6 -- I can't determine where I was or what it was even 7 about. 8 Q: Okay. Well, if we continue, I'm 9 going to be coming back to this for other purposes but if 10 we continue on page 8, I believe that's the first time 11 after a number of indications of other persons in the 12 conversation, that the word "Mac" appears. If "Mac" 13 appears, that -- that would be you; is that correct? 14 A: Yeah, I would think so. 15 Q: And now, about a third of the way up 16 from page 8, attributed to Mac is unreadable; do you see 17 that, sir? 18 And then Jeff says, "Mac." 19 And then attributed to Mac: "Yes, I'm at 20 the intersection of 21 Highway and Army 21 Camp Road." 22 And then you're updating and so on. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So, I would suggest to you, sir, that 25 the fact that you don't call in at any intermediate point


1 would suggested that you are on the line for the entire 2 duration rather than starting a new conversation by 3 calling in to dispatch; is that a fair assumption? 4 A: I -- I can't say whether I was put on 5 hold, I can't, you know -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Perhaps, you just look 7 at -- at page 7 again, and you'll see after the initial 8 exchange, if I might, at the top of that page: 9 "M. Gilpin: Yeah, the Cruiser or that 10 Cousineau guy." 11 And Jeff responds: "Yeah, yeah." 12 A couple of lines down Jeff says to you: 13 "Hang on, Mac. Hang on." 14 You know, does that assist you at all? 15 THE WITNESS: As to whether I was placed 16 on hold you mean or -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Right. 18 THE WITNESS: I can't say. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: If -- if you weren't placed on hold 22 would you be able to hear still what was going on? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 24 minute. Ms. Tuck-Jackson, do you have something you wish 25 to say before we continue?


1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Only, Mr. 2 Commissioner, just in fairness to the Witness, I think 3 it's important to recall the chronology. 4 We know that as of page 6 at the top of 5 the page, the witness has left the parking lot and is 6 actually en route to the intersection, and that not that 7 long after the transmission that appears at the top of 8 page 7, it's reasonable to conclude that he would either 9 be very close to the intersection or actually involved in 10 dealing with the call. 11 So, I just -- I think it's important to 12 have that factual context on the record. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 14 to continue, Mr. Rosenthal? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, My Friend, 16 Mr. Ross also points out and we realize it's ten (10) 17 years later, sir, and we're all con -- and certainly I am 18 confused by this transcript, but if we could turn to page 19 9. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: About -- well, it says "Mac" and then 25 "Geoff" and then "Mac" and then "Geoff", and the second


1 "Geoff" there is: 2 "Yeah give that -- that to Thetford. 3 That's what we've already talked about. 4 I've got to go. I'm going to put you 5 on hold here." 6 And Mac: 7 "No, don't put me on hold, because I 8 got to go." 9 Now, there Geoff says, "put you on hold," 10 earlier he said, "hang on." Is there a difference in 11 those two (2), sir? 12 Would "hang on" mean stay there and "hold" 13 means I'm going to -- I'm going to disconnect your call 14 in a position where you can't continue to talk? 15 A: I can't say that for sure, I have no 16 idea. 17 Q: I mean, just generally, forgetting 18 this particular situation, sir, you went out on many 19 calls in the course of your work through this dispatch, I 20 gather; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And it must have been from time to 23 time other matters came in and the dispatcher said, Wait 24 a second; right? And had to deal with something else for 25 a moment, other than continuing your call; right?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I'm suggesting that it might 3 appear that if he says, hang on, then he's keeping you on 4 the line, certainly; right? 5 And that you -- it might appear that then 6 you would be able -- you would still be participating as 7 opposed to if he says, I'm putting you on hold, that 8 suggests that he's going to do something that will put 9 you in a special position of some kind. 10 Am I misunderstanding or is that right? 11 A: I think you'd have to ask Geoff, the 12 dispatcher, but, you know, I think it's not uncommon for 13 any conversation or over the years we've had with the 14 dispatch that they're -- they're constantly being 15 interrupted by phone calls even when you -- when you get 16 to the hospital, you often call in for your -- your data 17 or -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- your information, and it's not 20 uncommon for them to say I got to go to another line or I 21 got this, or hang on for a sec, you know, and usually 22 they'll put you on hold because I think that's the method 23 that they have. 24 But I can't speak to that. 25 Q: Okay. I'm just trying as best as


1 possible -- 2 A: I know you are. 3 Q: -- to have you reconstruct what 4 happened there. But certainly you would acknowledge that 5 evidently you were informed about two (2) injuries at a 6 location that was identified as 9780 Army Camp Road? 7 Going back now, to page 7, and your -- the 8 words attributed to you. 9 A: Yes, and I can't say whether that 10 information was given to me while I was at the 11 intersection of 21 and Army Camp. I -- 12 Q: Yes, you don't know where it 13 occurred, but evidently -- 14 A: I would think that most of this 15 conversation occurred at Army Camp and Ipperwash, because 16 we were updating dispatch. 17 Q: I see. 18 A: I think it's obvious from the 19 transcripts that these dispatchers were exceptionally 20 busy. 21 Q: But in any event, apparently this 22 Cousineau guy wanted you to respond to that call and it 23 doesn't appear -- you told us you've read this transcript 24 several times, but there doesn't appear to be any 25 explanation in this transcript as to what happened with


1 respect to that call. 2 Is that fair to say? 3 A: No, I can't recall any of it, that's 4 what I indicated to you a few minutes ago, was that's the 5 best explanation I can come up with. 6 Q: Yes, and I appreciate you don't 7 recall it now, ten (10) years later, but as you've 8 indicated, you've reviewed several documents. 9 In any of the documents, have you noticed 10 anything that would shed light on what happened with 11 respect to this concern about two (2) injuries at 9780 12 Army Camp Road? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He doesn't remember but 15 there is going to be a document -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yeah okay. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well I'm -- I'm 18 concerned that there is a reference in the ambulance log 19 as to what happened to that call and Mr. Gilpin can't 20 remember it, but I'm not sure it's fair to leave it 21 hanging like that, it makes it sound like there's -- 22 there's no information as to what happened and there is. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm -- I'm not 24 trying to make it sound like there's no information as to 25 what happened, I'm trying to get as much information as I


1 can from this Witness, because he was quoted that way and 2 I think I've done as best I can in that respect and I'm 3 planning to move on to something else. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: Now, turning then, to your being 9 dispatched to the Nauvoo Road location and, again, I 10 should like to look at this transcript, Exhibit P-351. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, if -- if we could begin on page 15 9, and again, sir, I'm referring to the small numbers at 16 the bottom. About several lines down we see a statement 17 attributed to Jack: 18 "1145, are you committed?" 19 And, you asked about this part of the 20 transcript when Ms. Vella was questioning you earlier 21 today. 1145 was your vehicle at that point; is that 22 correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And then the answer, though, is not 25 from 1145 but from 1146, the companion vehicle, and the


1 answer is: 2 "Negative. That's negative, this is 3 1146. That's negative." 4 And then: 5 "Jack: Roger. And 1145 is at 21 and 6 Army Camp Road?" 7 And 1146 responds: 8 "Jack, they're just giving us a hand 9 over." 10 And then: 11 "Jack: Code 4, Code 4 at 6840 Nauvoo 12 Road for a gunshot wound between 13 Burnham line and Brick Yard line." 14 And then there's Dispatch. 15 Now, I don't see, on this transcript, your 16 response to that call; your indicating, Yes, we'll take 17 it or something. Am I missing something? 18 A: You're probably missing the fact that 19 he hasn't indicated a vehicle number with it. 20 Q: He has not indicated a vehicle 21 number? 22 A: No, I don't see that. 23 Q: Yes. No, I don't see that either, 24 but later on towards the bottom of this page, about three 25 (3) lines from the bottom -- well, let's make it four (4)


1 lines from the bottom, OPP Cousineau Brickyard and then 2 Geoff and Burnham: 3 "We've got Mac Gilpin responding on 4 that one." 5 Now, that seems to indicate that you were 6 responding to this -- this call, but I don't see in the 7 interim where you acknowledged that you were responding 8 or where they were in direct communication with you; am I 9 missing something, sir? 10 A: I -- I -- you're -- I can't speak for 11 Dispatch, I mean, you know, you're -- you're asking me to 12 comment on a conversation between the OP -- you know. 13 Q: No, I appreciate that, sir. Can you 14 assist us, though, from your own recollection or from any 15 other notes that you are aware as to when you got that 16 information and how you got that information about this 17 Code 4 at 6840 Nauvoo Road and when you accepted that 18 responsibility of going to that location? 19 A: The only reference I have to it, it's 20 well into page 11, but -- and then I -- all I can only go 21 from my notes in -- in terms of we responded to the call 22 at 23:31 hours. That's the only reference I see, but 23 you're right, I don't see a reference to that -- a call - 24 - a car number being assigned to that call or -- or 25 anything else.


1 Q: Now, continuing with that transcript 2 then, on page 11. There is information from caller 3 Nauvoo, male, and so on -- when you were in your 4 ambulance, when you were on this occasion, would you have 5 been able to listen to dispatch if you wanted to by 6 turning on your radio? 7 A: Yeah. It's -- most of the vehicles 8 are on common channel, so you can -- 9 Q: On common channel. 10 A: -- pretty hear the chatting. 11 Q: And typically, as you were going en 12 route to your destination, you would leave the radio on; 13 would you not? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You would. So -- so you likely would 16 have heard this conversation? 17 A: The one...? 18 Q: Well, if we refer to the one on page 19 11 for example? 20 A: Yeah. Anything that would have 1145 21 identified to it, yes. But any of the -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- this looks like a telephone 24 conversation, some of it intertwined. 25 Q: Yes. Well, we understand. If it


1 says "1145" that means that you are -- you or your 2 partner in the ambulance are talking -- 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: -- specifically; right? 5 A: That's right. Yes, sir. 6 Q: But we do understand that the -- in 7 the earlier part of that page, where it says: 8 "Caller, Nauvoo, female" 9 And: 10 "Caller, Nauvoo, male. 11 It was a transcript of a caller from a 12 residence, the residence that you were en route to, who 13 had called in. But -- but am I correct that you would 14 have been able to hear that too if you had your radio on 15 to the channel? 16 A: No. We're -- we would not pick up a 17 conversation -- 18 Q: I see. 19 A: -- from a caller to the dispatch 20 centre. 21 Q: You would not? 22 A: No. No, sir. 23 Q: Okay. Thank you. And then -- so 24 then you do become involved. About two thirds (2/3) of 25 the way down the page, it says:


1 "Jeff, 1145." 2 And that would mean the dispatcher is 3 calling -- calling on you to respond; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then you do respond by saying: 6 "Go ahead Wallaceburg." 7 And -- and these would be your responses 8 rather than your partner, would it? 9 A: I believe that that's my partner's 10 response. 11 Q: I see. It might be, okay. And then 12 Jeff says: 13 "Evidently, a patient has left the 14 scene, been taken by a group of people, 15 we're not sure where, the caller didn't 16 say which way the car left. I'm going 17 to pass that on to command post, 10-4." 18 And then you or your partner, whoever was 19 speaking for 1145 says: 20 "Affirmative, sir. Were the OPP not on 21 scene for this patient? Over." 22 And then Jeff responds: 23 "Negative." 24 And then 1145 asks: 25 "Do you want 1145 to carry on with this


1 call or to cancel for now? Over." 2 So can you take your mind back, sir, and - 3 - and can you remember that discussion roughly? 4 A: I -- I don't recall the discussion 5 and I probably suspect that the conversation that was 6 going on here was probably by my attendant. 7 Q: I see. 8 A: It's not uncommon if the driver's 9 doing the driving, to have the attendant do the -- 10 sometimes the map work or the -- 11 Q: But you would be able to hear the 12 conversation? 13 A: Definitely. 14 Q: And you would certainly, at the time, 15 have noted the possibly of cancelling your call? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, to the question though to carry 18 on or cancel, Jeff answers: 19 "Carry on at this time." 20 You see that, sir? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So presumably you would have carried 23 on at that time then; is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then there's some more discussion


1 between Jeff and other persons. And then, turning to 2 page 12, it says: 3 "1145." 4 A few lines from the end of the 5 transcript. And then: 6 "1145: Go ahead, Wallaceburg. 1145." 7 And then Jeff: 8 "1145, you've been cancelled on that 9 Code 4 to Nauvoo Road. Cancel. I'll 10 get back to you. 10-4, sir." 11 So that was the order to cancel? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, as you've told us, you followed 14 that by driving up a little ways, making a U-turn and 15 coming back? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Now, and the timing has been difficult 18 for us all to try to understand here, sir, as you 19 appreciate. 20 I gather that your evidence now is that it 21 should have taken about fifteen (15) minutes from you to 22 get from where you started up to the point where the call 23 was cancelled; is that correct? 24 A: Approximately, yes. 25 Q: Approximately.


1 A: That's pretty close. 2 Q: And about how long, in terms of 3 minutes, were you from what was to be your ultimate 4 destination, 6840 Nauvoo Road at the point where you 5 turned around? 6 A: I think it'd be approximately four (4) 7 to five (5) minutes tops. 8 Q: Four (4) to five (5) minutes? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And in that situation, it was not your 14 decision whether to turn around or not, it was the 15 dispatcher's decision? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Now Ms. Vella, in your evidence, took 18 you to a note where you -- apparently written in October 19 of 1995 about the question is -- I'm not going to refer to 20 the details, sir, I'm just giving you that as background 21 for my question, as to the question of how or whether to 22 deliver ambulance service to Stoney Point; is that 23 correct? 24 Now, sir -- and then she asked you, What is 25 the situation at present with respect to that and you


1 indicated that you don't know because you've stopped 2 running your ambulance service in the year 2000. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: But I should like to ask you, in the 5 interim period, say from 1995 to 2000, was it not the case 6 that ambulances did not readily go to Stoney Point 7 reserve? 8 A: I didn't really run the ambulance 9 service in Thetford which would respond to that until 10 about 1999 and I don't recall any incidences of no service 11 or not responding in there. 12 Q: But is it not fair to say that the 13 general notion that one would not respond quickly and 14 immediately to that location as one would to -- normally 15 to other locations was still very much afloat during that 16 time period? 17 A: Could you repeat that, I -- 18 Q: Sorry, it was -- I acknowledge it was 19 awkwardly phrased, sir. 20 In October '95, evidently, there was some 21 concern about responding to ambulance calls at that 22 location, Stoney Point reserve, right? Is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that concern was such as to have 25 possibly meant that ambulances would do something else


1 before responding, at least check in some other way, 2 before responding in the normal way to a call at that 3 location; right? 4 A: I believe the policy was to notify the 5 OPP and -- 6 Q: Notify the OPP first? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: As opposed to all other calls where 9 you just get there as quickly as possible; right? 10 A: Well, you do it on the radio so you're 11 still responding to the call. 12 Q: Yes. Now that special situation, as 13 far as you know, obtained, as long as you were aware of 14 the situation, that is, up until the year 2000; is that 15 correct? 16 A: I believe so. Also at the camp they 17 had, and I can't think of the correct terminology, they 18 were First Nations, I don't think the name was police 19 force but there was assistance that they would help you at 20 -- at the gate, and I can't think of their names, what 21 they were. 22 And I can also not think of any incidences 23 we had for service. 24 Q: But there remained this notion that 25 there was something special about that place, as far as


1 ambulances responding? 2 A: I think that's fair to say, yeah. 3 Q: Thank you, sir, thank you Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you Mr. 6 Rosenthal. 7 Mr. Ross...? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 15 Q: Mr. Gilpin, my name is Anthony Ross. 16 I've got just a few questions for you. I represent the 17 people who are now resident at Aazhoodena. 18 I'd like to pick up on what Mr. Rosenthal 19 was just addressing to you and I ask you to refer to 20 Exhibit 374, that is the one sheet of paper, on the top 21 left is dated 7 October, 1995 and it -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 12. 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Pardon me? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 12. 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Tab 12.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 3 Q: Sir, it's under your Tab 12, sorry, I 4 took it out. 5 Now, Mr. Gilpin when you were speaking to 6 Commission Counsel, you spoke about knowledge of the 7 incident. You said this document was a result of 8 knowledge of the incident; do you remember those words? 9 A: This morning you mean, sir? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I suppose, yes. 12 Q: Okay. When you said, "knowledge of 13 the incident," what did you mean; what was the indicate? 14 A: The incident, sir? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: You mean -- well, obviously, the 17 incident that, you know, brought the attention to this 18 Ipperwash Army Cadet Camp. 19 Q: I see. And so -- and where did you 20 get your information from, as to what constitutes the 21 incident? 22 A: Well probably from the media like 23 everyone has. 24 Q: I see, from the media. Did you get 25 any of it from the police?


1 A: I don't recall a de-briefing that -- 2 that occurred. 3 Q: Well, no, you told us before there was 4 no de-briefing, so I -- I accept that, but you were 5 involved with the police on September the 5th, correct; 6 that's when they called you about the standby ambulance? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Are you involved on the 6th? That's 9 when the shooting occurred; am I correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. And, you -- you -- from -- from 12 your evidence, that's what was referred to, as I 13 understand it, as "the incident," the collection of facts 14 around -- the collection of circumstances around September 15 the 5th and 6th, 1995; am I correct with that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yeah. Now, as a result of those 18 circumstances, this document, which appears under Tab 12, 19 was -- was created and it reads here: 20 "At 11:57, among other things, Inspector 21 Carson advised that First Nations 22 officers are to be dispatched to any of 23 these occurrences." 24 Now, what did you understand that to mean? 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: You mean in terms of occurrences at 4 Ipperwash Army Camp, sir? 5 Q: Perhaps I should just read back a 6 little further. 7 A: Sure. 8 Q: Perhaps I should just read the entire 9 eight (8) or nine (9) lines. 10 "11:57 hours Staff Sergeant Scanlon 11 attend the Command Post and had 12 discussions with Inspector Carson 13 regarding ambulance personnel." 14 Now, this is a month after the incident; 15 correct so far? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: "A letter received from Mac Gilpin." 18 That's you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 "Forest Ambulance stating that the 22 ambulance will not enter Camp Ipperwash. 23 Any victims will have to be taken to the 24 front entrance." 25 That was your letter?


1 A: I haven't got a copy of it here, do 2 you have one, sir? 3 Q: Sorry, sir, I don't. 4 A: All right. 5 Q: Does Commission Counsel? 6 Apparently, they don't have a letter, but 7 do you recall taking a position that you didn't want your 8 ambulances going to the Camp? 9 A: I can't say I'd had a position against 10 it, I think it's -- it's a -- it was concerning the health 11 and safety of our staff and -- 12 Q: I see. 13 A: But I wish I had of the letter so I 14 could read it myself. 15 Q: Yeah. "The health and safety of your 16 staff." Now, I take it, sir, that -- first I must ask 17 you, apart from your service, who else operated ambulance 18 services in -- in this area? 19 A: There'd be one out of Thedford at that 20 time. 21 Q: There's one at Thedford? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: But you had one stationed in Forest; 24 am I correct? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: So that if people in the Camp needed 2 unrestricted ambulance service, they should phone 3 Thedford, not yours; am I correct? 4 A: Well, generally Thedford would be in 5 that response area. 6 Q: I see, not the Forest area? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: I see. So, you took -- so, I take it, 9 then, that there were two (2) ambulance services in the 10 area; yours and the one at Thedford? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Do you know whether or not Thedford 13 had taken the same position that they didn't want their 14 ambulances in at the Camp? 15 A: I can't say if I can; I have no idea. 16 Q: Now, on the 5th and 6th of September, 17 1995, when your ambulances were at the scene of the 18 incident, would you agree with me that you were pretty 19 much under OPP control? 20 A: In terms of dispatching, sir? 21 Q: Dispatching, operations, whatever. 22 You were there as an ambulance operator, but you weren't 23 free to do what you thought you should do, you were there 24 to comply with the instructions of the OPP. 25 Am I correct with that?


1 A: We would generally be under the 2 dispatch of our central ambulance dispatch. 3 Q: I understand that dispatch would send 4 you to the area, but when you get to the area; for 5 instance, your dispatcher didn't tell you to get down in 6 the ditch, did he? 7 A: No. 8 Q: But you got down in the ditch, didn't 9 you? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And who told you to get down in the 12 ditch? 13 A: An officer. 14 Q: An officer. And your dispatcher 15 didn't tell you where to put your vehicle, did he? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: An officer told you that. So, Mr. 18 Gilpin, isn't it reasonable to conclude that when you 19 arrived there with your ambulance, you fell fully under 20 OPP control? 21 A: I never felt that we were under their 22 control. 23 Q: I see, you were free to do what you 24 want? You like to go down in ditches all on your own? 25 A: Well, I must admit that if there was a


1 call when we were perhaps at the MNR parking lot, perhaps 2 with a patient that was close to where we were, I would 3 have thought the dispatch would have probably dispatched 4 us to it. 5 Q: I see, lots of probablys. Now, prior 6 to the incident, did you have any concerns about your 7 ambulances going onto any of the First Nation territories? 8 A: Never. 9 Q: And subsequent to the incident, the 10 only First Nation territory that you did not want your 11 ambulances going on to, was Aazhoodena, the Army Camp. 12 Am I correct with that? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: So if there was a call down at Kettle 15 Point, your ambulances would go? 16 A: Definitely. 17 Q: But if it is up at Aazhoodena, you 18 want clearance with the RCMP -- with the OPP first? 19 A: I can't say what my letter stated, 20 because I haven't got a copy of it. 21 Q: I see. Thank you very much, Mr. 22 Gilpin. 23 A: You're welcome. 24 Q: Commissioner, thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.


1 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 6 Mr. Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 afternoon. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 11 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Gilpin. My name 12 is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm going to question you on 13 behalf of the OPP. 14 I want to follow up specifically on the 15 last line of questions by My Friend, Mr. Ross. 16 He suggested to you, sir, that on the night 17 of September the 6th in the early morning hours of the 18 7th, that you were under the control of the OPP. 19 I trust, sir, that you would not have done 20 anything under their direction, that you felt from your 21 perspective was professionally inappropriate? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Thank you. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Now, I'm going to endeavour to try and 2 make heads and tails out of the beloved transcript that 3 we've all took a great deal of time referring to, both 4 during your testimony and the testimony of some of your 5 colleagues. 6 And in order to interpret it, and I want to 7 pick up on something that you said earlier, which was, do 8 we have time references in this transcript. 9 And I want to see if we can piece it 10 together by looking at the document that appears at Tab 1 11 of your materials, which for the benefit of the record, is 12 Document 5000206, and it called 'the daily dispatch log 13 summary'. 14 And I'd ask you to keep that open and also 15 keep your thumb open at Tab 3 of the materials, which is 16 the transcript of the tape of September 6th and 7th and 17 it's been marked as Exhibit P-351 in these proceedings. 18 And let's begin, if we can, at Tab 1. 19 A: On Tab 1, what's the font number or 20 the Front Number, I'm sorry. 21 Q: The Front Number I have, it's starting 22 at 5002567. Hmm hmm. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: My Friend, Ms. Vella, advises to make 2 life much easier for you, apparently you have a separate 3 copy of the transcript, somewhere on that table of yours. 4 It may actually just be right in front of 5 you. I think you have it open already; is that it? In 6 your right hand. 7 A: This one here? 8 Q: No. I'm -- I'm referring to -- what's 9 open right in front of you, under your right arm? 10 A: The transcript? 11 Q: That's it. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: Hang on to that. And then also, if 14 you could, look at the documents that appear at Tab 1, 15 sir. 16 A: Okay. Was there a certain one on Tab 17 1? 18 Q: Yes. As is often the case, I'd like 19 to start at the beginning, sir, which is at Front 5002567. 20 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: 2567? 25 Q: Yes, please.


1 A: Good. 2 Q: Excellent. All right. Now, first of 3 all, are you familiar with this printout, sir, in the 4 sense that have you seen this type of -- of recording 5 before? 6 A: Generally no. We just get our 7 ambulance call forms and -- 8 Q: I'm going to ask you, sir, if you 9 could speak into the microphone. 10 A: Sorry. 11 Q: I'm having a bit of difficulty -- 12 A: I'm sorry. 13 Q: -- hearing you. That's all right. 14 A: Generally, no. No. 15 Q: All right. Is it fair to say though, 16 in your capacity as an owner and operator, that you have 17 some familiarity with this documentation? 18 A: I think we could work with it. 19 Q: Okay. Well, let's try and work with 20 it. 21 All right. It's titled, A Daily Dispatch 22 Log Summary. And as you go through it you'll note, for 23 example, here we have: "Incidents/Unusual Occurrences 24 (Narratives)." 25 And then what we see is a series of dates


1 and times and an operator identifier. You see what I'm 2 referring to? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. So, for example, if we drop 5 down several lines on the page that I have referred to, 6 Front 2567, we'll see an entry for September the 6th, 7 1995, at 21:00 hours, which is 9:00 p.m., and we then have 8 an entry to the effect of: 9 "Confirm Sergeant Reid reporting an 10 ongoing situation at Ipperwash. Request 11 one (1) unit on site for standby." 12 Now, does that tell you, sir, that at 13 around nine o'clock Operator 98761 received a call from 14 Sergeant Reid obviously relating the content that's 15 summarized here; is that what we could reasonably infer 16 from this? 17 A: I -- that's how I would see it. 18 Q: All right. Excellent. Let's move on 19 then. 20 Next page. I promise I'll provide the 21 Front Number; 26 -- excuse me, 2568. You'll see that 22 there is an entry for September the 6th, '95, a time of 23 21:33, same operator, and the content is that Sergeant 24 Reid, it would appear, requiring or requesting two (2) 25 ambulances to attend on Ipperwash Road, at the OPP


1 checkpoint. 2 And, again, can we infer that that means 3 that that's the time, 9:33 p.m., when the operator 4 received that request? 5 A: It looks like that, yes. 6 Q: And that would appear to coincide, in 7 terms of a time, with your evidence earlier today as to 8 the time that you subsequently would have been advised of 9 that same request? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. Good. And, indeed, the 12 next entry is for the same date, at 21:45, or 9:45 p.m., 13 and the entry is: 14 "Sergeant Reid requests the Chief of 15 Bedford Fire Department telephone number 16 to put him on alert." 17 And again I trust it's then reasonable for 18 us to assume that what's going on there is that Sergeant 19 Reid, and you can take it from me that Sergeant Reid is 20 with the OPP, that the OPP is taking steps, it would 21 appear, to contact the relevant fire department to put 22 them on alert; is that a reasonable inference from this 23 entry? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Now, we then see an entry time-


1 stamped at 22:13, or 10:13 p.m., and it refers to 2 yourself: 3 "Mac called advising they will likely be 4 two (2) to three (3) hours at least on 5 location." 6 And then you appear to be having some 7 conversation with Operator 98761 talking about what 8 appears to be up staffing issues; is that fair? 9 A: Yeah, it looks like when we requested 10 coverage from the Forest area. 11 Q: All right. And, just so that we don't 12 refer to an individual by number, is 98761 -- is that 13 referring to Mr. Knight or Mr. Connors? 14 A: I -- I can't say who it is. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Connors. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: Yeah, a very knowledgeable person 19 beside me is whispering in my ear that it refers to Mr. 20 Connors. 21 A: All right. 22 Q: Okay. Now, we also see on that same 23 page, a reference to your name and a cellular number. Was 24 that your cell phone at the time? 25 A: I recognize the number and I suspect


1 it is. 2 Q: All right. And, I gather that this 3 information would be in circulation so that Dispatch would 4 be aware of how to reach you in case they did want to 5 reach you or could not reach you by radio; is that fair? 6 A: I can't say why it was there, but I 7 suspect that. 8 Q: All right. Now, before I -- I move 9 on, I had referred earlier to the reference to the Chief 10 of the Thedford Fire Department. You've already told us 11 that the -- what's sometimes described as Stoney Point 12 Reserve and sometimes described as Camp Ipperwash -- falls 13 within the jurisdiction of Thedford Ambulance. 14 Does it also fall within the territorial 15 jurisdiction of Thedford Fire Department? 16 A: I -- I can't say that because I know 17 there was a fire department at Northville, but I don't 18 know when Northville -- you're putting me in a tough spot, 19 there. 20 Q: And, I don't want to do that -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: -- so, don't answer that question. 23 A: All right. 24 Q: All right. Let's continue. Turning 25 the page; and the next page is 2569, excuse me. And,


1 again, we see an entry for September the 6th, 1995 at 2 22:50 or 10:50 p.m. indicating that you called advising 3 that Ted Slomer, who is also a medic with the OPP, is also 4 present: 5 "Mac has inquired, what hospital was 6 closest? We believe that Strathroy ER 7 is the closest to the Ipperwash..." 8 It says, "only," I suspect it's supposed to 9 be "area." 10 But, in any event, does this, then, assist 11 you as to the timing of the conversation you would have 12 had with Mr. Connors as to which hospital should be 13 receiving patients? 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I'm only 15 rising because I'm -- I'm concerned about the assumptions 16 that are being built into this line of questioning. 17 As you know from evidence from Mr. Connors, 18 the time entry stamps do not necessarily coincide with the 19 time of the occurrence; it's rather the time that he 20 punched the enter button on the occurrence, is why I've 21 changed tact a little bit. 22 But, I'm concerned that this Witness not -- 23 not misunderstand that there may be difficulties with 24 respect to how you can interpret those numbers, which is 25 why I asked him about what numbers -- what the source of


1 his number were in -- in the report. 2 So, with that proviso, I'd like to caution 3 the Witness with respect to simply relying on the time 4 date -- the times in the -- the records so that he 5 understands that additional context. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Even the 7 person who entered the times wasn't certain that they were 8 correct -- 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, it -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so it's 11 difficult -- 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That -- what Mr. Connors 13 indicated was, the time stamp isn't applied until he 14 pushes the Enter button. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If he's doing other 17 things, the information's on the monitor, five (5) 18 minutes might go by and he pushes the -- the time entry 19 button and then the time is the time as of the entry. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You went to 21 great lengths to try to explain the time differentials and 22 I'm concerned as well that Ms. Tuck-Jackson was trying to 23 clarify it and we may end up being more confused, but I 24 suppose we have to let her try. If she thinks she can 25 clarify it, we'd all be grateful, but I'm not optimistic.


1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, I 2 appreciate, Mr. Commissioner, and I appreciate My Friend 3 Ms. Vella's comments. And actually that's why, when I 4 began this I -- I referred to an -- the time as being 5 approximately because -- and, in fairness, Mr. Gilpin 6 needs to be made aware of the fact that we certainly have 7 heard evidence that the information that's inputted into 8 the computer is not time- stamped automatically. 9 The time-stamp is a function of when the 10 person chooses or has an opportunity to actually press an 11 enter button and -- and it becomes time-stamped. 12 But with that proviso on the record I'd 13 still like to proceed -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- to at least 16 provide some type of a -- a timing framework for the 17 transcript that we've paid so much attention to. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 20 Q: So, let's return then to page where 21 identified as Front 2569. And we see at the top that you 22 are -- appear to be communicating with Mr. Connors some of 23 the substance of a conversation that you had with Mr. 24 Slomer; would that be fair? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And it is during this particular call, 2 which we'll -- we'll say for the sake of the record is -- 3 is around the time 22:50, this is the -- the call in which 4 you're having a discussion as to which is the best 5 hospital to take people to in terms of proximity? 6 A: I think the comments were regarding 7 what the closest hospital is. 8 Q: Yes, exactly. Now, we then see two 9 (2) entries immediately thereafter. 10 We see an entry for 22:53, or 10:53. And 11 it appears from this, I'm going to suggest to you, that 12 the dispatcher was making a phone call to the Strathroy 13 Hospital and having some contact with a nurse there. And 14 I anticipate we're going to hear some evidence from a 15 nurse that actually coincides in terms of time as to when 16 that call was actually made. 17 But, again, is it reasonable to infer that 18 this record that we have in front of us captures a call 19 that was made to Strathroy Hospital at or around 22:53? 20 A: You're putting me in a tough spot. I 21 -- I didn't make the call, so I can't, you know -- 22 Q: I appreciate that. I'm simply asking 23 you, based on your experience, to -- to interpret or to 24 allow us to take some comfort in the fact that this type 25 of document records a chronology of things that were done


1 by the dispatcher? 2 A: I think that's fair to say. 3 Q: All right. And, again, we see the 4 next entry, for 22:03, where there appears to be some 5 contact with the Sarnia General Hospital; you see that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that appears to coincide with what 8 you told us earlier today, which was you had received 9 confirmation from the dispatcher that potential issues 10 arising from your call to Ipperwash Park had been conveyed 11 not only to one (1) hospital but to two (2), and that was 12 your understanding? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Thank you. And there's certainly some 15 evidence to suggest by this document that that was 16 conveyed either shortly before or shortly after 11:00 p.m. 17 on the night of the 6th? 18 A: Once again, if the time is correct, 19 yes. 20 Q: Exactly, assuming that the time is -- 21 is correct. 22 All right. Now, here, with a herculean 23 effort, I'm going to try and coordinate this document with 24 the transcript that appears as Exhibit P-351. 25 You'll see, for example -- and -- and I


1 should start -- back up for a moment. 2 Would you have been hearing any of the 3 chatter that has been transcribed as you are sitting in 4 the MNR parking lot, in your ambulance; the chatter that's 5 been transcribed in this transcript? 6 A: You mean on the -- the transmission 7 here? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I -- I think what I referred to it in 10 my notes and in my report is just, sort of, radio chatter 11 that, you know, but I don't think we could pick up any 12 specific person talking or anything, just of the 13 increasing chatter on the radio, I guess, if you want to 14 call it that. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: You -- you've got to also remember 17 that we probably had -- we had our radios on in the 18 vehicle as well, listening to, once again, radio chatter 19 that could have been dispatching of ambulances in the 20 Chatham, or Sarnia area as well; we would have been 21 picking up some of that, so. 22 Q: Okay. So, any number of different 23 tracks you could be listening to? 24 A: Well, sort of background noises I call 25 it, but...


1 Q: All right. I understand. We see, for 2 example, on the transcript, four (4) lines down, something 3 that's been attributed to officer Reid. 4 "Did you get your ambulance down there 5 earlier when I called?" 6 And you'll see in the daily dispatch log 7 summary, a date of September the 6th, a time of 23:08 and 8 a reference to Sergeant Reid requesting location of units. 9 Is it -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- reasonable for us to assume that 12 this entry in the dispatch log summary refers in some way 13 to the question that's been attributed to officer Reid? 14 Does that make sense? 15 A: What page is the transcript that 16 you're referring to on? 17 Q: It's Front 2682. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: We see, for example, at the top, it 22 says: "Ambulance 23:06", and we've heard evidence that 23 that refers to -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An accurate 25 time.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 3 Q: -- a time, an accurate time. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And so does 5 the 23:07, which is a little further down. And they're 6 the only two (2) times that appear on that transcript as I 7 understand it. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: You're right. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And that's 10 why Ms. Vella, when she was going through it, was trying 11 to indicate what time she thought it might be -- 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- from other 14 documents that she was trying to assemble. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And that's -- we 16 haven't -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What you're 18 doing. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- we haven't 20 used this other document and that's all I'm trying to -- 21 to infuse the same type of information. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:


1 Q: Okay. You've had a chance to look at 2 the transcript. 3 A: You're asking me to make a 4 determination of the information I have in front of me? 5 Q: Yes, an interpretation. And if it's 6 something, sir, that you don't feel comfortable with 7 because you're not part of the conversation, then I won't 8 do it. 9 I have other parts where I anticipate 10 you're the party to the conversation -- 11 A: Well, frankly, I don't, you know, to 12 be honest with you. 13 Q: Fair enough. All right. You'll see 14 down that same page of the dispatch log summary an entry 15 for September the 6th, 1995 at 23:11 and it says: 16 "Both Forest units committed on Code 4 17 in Ipperwash at a possible shooting." 18 You were taken earlier in the transcript, 19 to the top of page 6... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: ...where it would appeal -- appear 24 that either yourself or Mr. DiCesare was communicating to 25 dispatch that you and Unit 11 -- oh, no, your unit, sorry,


1 I've got the units backwards, my apologies. 2 We've already agreed that that appears to 3 be confirmation from unit 1146 that they and you were 4 being sent off and going down to Army Camp Road and 5 Highway 21. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And if we look at the 8 dispatch log, we see that that is, according to the log, 9 at or around 23:18. 10 My only question, acknowledging all of the 11 frailties of how things are time-stamped here, does that 12 seem to match up in terms of referring to the -- the same 13 transaction, for lack of a better word? 14 A: Except the ACR indicates 23:11. 15 Q: Yes, I appreciate there's that time 16 differential. I acknowledge that. Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Mr. Commissioner, I'm going to suggest 21 that the dispatch -- the daily dispatch log summary be 22 marked as the next exhibit. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: These aren't 24 already an exhibit. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It is already an


1 exhibit. It's part of -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's part of 3 a larger exhibit. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's part of Exhibit P- 5 345. 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: My apologies. I 7 didn't realise that. Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 12 right, Mr. Registrar? Is that... 13 THE REGISTRAR: It's Document Number 14 1003002. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's 16 part of -- well, it's got another number, that's another 17 problem. It's 5 -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's document reproduced 19 under a -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, but 21 it's the same -- it's part of that package of documents 22 that was made Exhibit 345, I think. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: My only 24 confusion, Mr. Commissioner, is it had a very distinct 25 document number, so I had -- I hadn't gone back to cross-


1 reference to see if it was in that other larger document, 2 my apologies. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I wouldn't 4 apologize until we're sure that we're right, I think we 5 are. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 8 Q: All right. Let's then, focus a little 9 bit more on the transcript itself, all right, Exhibit P- 10 351? 11 And, we know, sir, up until the point that 12 appears at the top of page 6 on the transcript, where 13 there's an indication that your unit and the 1146 unit are 14 about to leave to respond to the emergency at Army Camp 15 Road and number 21, we know that up to that point, you are 16 in the MNR parking lot? 17 A: It appears so, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you were asked by my 19 Friend Mr. Rosenthal about an exchange between yourself 20 and Mr. Connors, and that exchange appears on page 7 21 towards the top. 22 And, in particular, it's the exchange that 23 reads, and this has been attributed to you: 24 "Yeah, that Cruiser or that Cousineau 25 guy came over to see us. He wanted us


1 to respond to that residence that you 2 had on Army Camp Road, 9780. 3 Yeah, yeah." 4 And, you go on to say: 5 "There were two (2) injuries there." 6 And then, at that point, Mr. Connors says: 7 "Hang on, Mac, hang on." 8 And as you've already fairly conveyed to 9 us, no doubt Mr. Connors was multi-tasking to the "nth" 10 degree that night, so it's not surprising that you were 11 told to hang on at that point. 12 This is what I want to ask you: We've 13 heard some evidence from Mr. Tedball and Mr. Watt that 14 prior to being asked to go down to Army Camp Road and 15 Number 21, they were approached and asked to move forward 16 in the area towards the Park because of a concern of an 17 emergency and then they were then told that they were no 18 longer needed. 19 Do you have any knowledge of that; does 20 that ring a bell? 21 A: Yes, I remember the incident because 22 they drove off in front of us a wee bit. 23 Q: Okay. And, I anticipate that we're 24 going to hear why it was they were asked to go down and 25 why it was that it was determined that they were no longer


1 necessary. So, that's not what I want to get at. 2 Here's my next question. Knowing that 3 you're sitting in your unit in the parking lot and knowing 4 that you can hear certain things over the radio and, 5 again, it may just be chatter, it may be noise, but I'm 6 curious because would it have been possible that you would 7 have heard something in the exchange on the radio that 8 there had been a call to 9780 Army Camp Road? 9 A: It's possible. 10 Q: Is it possible, sir, that your comment 11 at the top of page 7 reflects the fact that you assumed 12 that the request that had been made of Mr. Watt and Mr. 13 Tedball was somehow connected to that 911 call that you 14 may have heard about over the radio? 15 A: That's a tough one to link, I -- I 16 can't say I do. 17 Q: All right. So, at the end of the day, 18 you simply cannot help us as to what this reference means? 19 A: No, I can't, I've read it a number of 20 times. 21 Q: I can tell you, Mr. Gilpin, if it 22 assists you, that I anticipate that we're going to here 23 that Officer Cousineau was actually some physical distance 24 away in a -- in a communications trailer behind the Forest 25 Detachment Police Station. So, it would appear that you


1 couldn't have had any direct contact with him. 2 Does that assist you in any way in 3 refreshing your memory? 4 A: Not at all, ma'am. 5 Q: All right. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: All right. Let's move on, away from 10 the beloved transcript that causes all of us great 11 confusion and grief. 12 If -- if you would, please, sir, could you 13 turn to Tab 14 of your materials before you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And in particular, sir, I'm interested 18 in an exchange that commences on page 11. And for the 19 purposes of the record, sir, I understand that this is a 20 transcript of an audio-taped interview of yourself that 21 took place on February the 12th, 2003; you'd agree with 22 that? 23 A: That's what it says at the beginning, 24 yes. 25 Q: Yes. And you understood, sir, that


1 you were being interviewed by a gentleman by the name of 2 Detective Armstrong for the purposes of a -- an 3 investigation called by the Chief Coroner? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. At the bottom of page 11, 6 sir, Detective Armstrong asks you: 7 "At any point in time were you prevented 8 from responding to the injured party by 9 the police?" 10 And, in fairness, it's not entirely clear 11 to what injured party he's referring but I suspect that 12 your answer is not going to be any different regardless of 13 who the person was, but we'll go on. You respond: 14 "At no time were we prevented from or by 15 the police to respond." 16 And I trust, sir, that you continue to 17 agree with the answer to that question? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You were then asked: 20 "When the call came in to go to the 21 farmhouse, did you experience any delays 22 on behalf of the police?" 23 And you responded: 24 "No delays, no." 25 And, again, I trust you are still in


1 agreement with that response? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: So you'd agree with me, sir, that at 7 no time did the police impede your ability to respond to a 8 patient who was in need of medical treatment, subject, 9 obviously, to the attempts that were made to secure the 10 scene at the intersection of Army Camp Road and number 21? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. And I've noted, sir, that 13 in this particular statement you estimated that the time 14 of the delay, and I'm looking at the bottom of page 12 of 15 your statement, you estimated that the time of delay was 16 anywhere from thirty (30) to forty-five (45) seconds; you 17 see that, sir? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I trust that that -- that is 20 within the range of -- of the delay that you estimated it 21 was? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that it 24 could very well have been even shorter? 25 A: In my original statement that I made


1 that next evening, or the next day, I believe I referred 2 to a time period of less than a minute. I'm -- I'll have 3 to look for it, but. 4 Q: I have another document, sir, that 5 might assist you in refreshing -- 6 A: All right. 7 Q: -- your memory. If you turn to -- 8 A: Thank you. 9 Q: -- Tab 9, it's a document that has 10 already been marked as Exhibit P-376 in these proceedings, 11 and for the benefit of some of my colleagues it's document 12 1002288. And if you turn to page 8, sir, you address the 13 very issues that we're speaking of. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You'll note, sir, mid-page, you're 16 providing a narrative of what was occurring on the night 17 of the 6th, particularly at that intersection, and you 18 estimated that you and your colleagues were in a ditch for 19 anywhere from twenty (20) to thirty (30) seconds. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And, again, that's a fair estimate, 22 sir? 23 A: Yes. My original notes refer to 24 somewhere between thirty (30) to sixty (60) seconds. 25 Q: All right. Thank you very much.


1 A: You're welcome. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, and to 8 complete the record, we should also be clear, Mr. Gilpin, 9 that you were referring to Exhibit P-372 which was the 10 report that you had prepared the day following the 11 incident; to refresh your memory. 12 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 17 Gilpin. Those are my questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 19 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 20 I know we still have Ms. Jones and Mr. 21 O'Marra to go, but I think I'd like to take a break now. 22 We'll take a short afternoon break. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 24 for fifteen (15) minutes. 25


1 --- Upon recessing at 3:07 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 3:37 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed, please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 afternoon, Ms. Jones. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Good afternoon, 12 Commissioner. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Gilpin. 16 A: Good afternoon. 17 Q: My name is Karen Jones, and I'm one of 18 the lawyers who's representing the Ontario Provincial 19 Police Association, and I just wanted to ask you a very 20 few questions about the evening of September the 6th and 21 then I wanted to see if you can assist us and the 22 Commission in terms of getting a better of the hospital at 23 Strathroy. 24 So, I just have those two (2) things. 25 I understand from looking at your ambulance


1 incident report from when you went to the Ministry of 2 Natural Resources parking lot, in front of you, that you 3 would have got to the MNR parking lot at 21:53 hours. 4 A: Yes, that's approximately, yes. 5 Q: Yeah. And you've told us a little bit 6 that when you arrived you were briefed by Staff -- Staff 7 Sergeant Wade Lacroix? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Okay. And I take it from your 10 evidence that you know Staff Sergeant Lacroix? 11 A: I had met him in -- 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: -- around the Petrolia areas. 14 Q: And I also take from looking at your 15 materials that you found him to be very professional and 16 very calm? 17 A: Yes, very much so. 18 Q: Yeah. And that you considered him to 19 be an upfront and straightforward person, based on your 20 dealings with him? 21 A: Yes. Yes, very much so. 22 Q: Okay, okay. And you have in front of 23 you the Commission brief and if I can just ask you to look 24 at Tab 1 of that brief, which is the daily dispatch log 25 summary.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And if you flip over three (3) pages 4 to the page that's numbered 2550 at the top, and it's 5 Inquiry Document number 5000206. 6 You see that there's an entry at 22:13 7 hours, that's about half way down that -- that page? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Saying that Mac called advising they 10 were likely to be two (2) to three (3) hours at least on 11 location? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And we've certainly heard lots about 14 the fact that some of the timing here may not be accurate. 15 But I take it from looking at that, that your briefing by 16 Staff Sergeant Lacroix would have happened very soon after 17 you arrived at the Ministry of Natural Resources parking 18 lot? 19 A: Yes, we met him as we -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- drove in. 22 Q: And that estimate of time would have 23 been based on what Staff Sergeant Lacroix told you about 24 what he expected would be happening, or could happen? 25 A: In my initial statement I -- I think I


1 said that he didn't really give us an idea of the length 2 of duration of the incident. 3 Q: No, I appreciate that. But I take 4 from that entry that when you called dispatch, you wanted 5 to give them at least some indication of time? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: It was -- it wasn't like, We could be 8 ten (10) minutes, but it wasn't like, We could be twenty- 9 four (24) hours? 10 A: That's right. I -- I was mostly 11 concerned that coverage be -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- obviously found for the Forest 14 area. 15 Q: That's right. And then, after you 16 told us that you had a briefing or a discussion with Ted 17 Slomer, who was the medic for the OPP? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And I take from your earlier 20 evidence that the discussion was really in a range of 21 making sure that he knew what kind of equipment you had 22 and the kind of skills and services could be provided by 23 you and your crew? 24 A: Yes. It was just a matter mostly -- 25 Q: Yeah.


1 A: -- of courtesy to -- 2 Q: Sure. 3 A: -- to ensure that we're on the same 4 page. 5 Q: And similarly you'd want to know the 6 same about him? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that would ensure that if 9 something did happen, both parties, both Mr. Slomer and 10 you and your crew, would be able to anticipate what might 11 -- what each might do and be able to work together 12 effectively? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And I take it also from what 15 you said that as between your crew and Mr. Slomer, that 16 there was available at that area at that time the ability 17 to intubate, through Mr. Slomer? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: The ability to start IV's? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: The ability to defibrillate? 22 A: We had the ability to defibrillate. 23 Q: Right. The ability to do CPR and 24 emergency first aid? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And the ability to use a variety of 2 equipment, such as the equipment you've described in your 3 ambulance, in order to try and stabilize and transport 4 someone safely? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And as a result of -- of the 7 discussions that you had with Mr. Slomer, I take it you 8 were comfortable that you and he, or your crew and he 9 would be able to work together if you needed to? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 12 questions about shock pants, because we know that one (1) 13 of the questions that you asked Mr. Slomer was whether or 14 not he had shock pants. 15 And I just thought to be clear for the 16 record, the acronym that people have used has changed over 17 the course of a couple days, and another name for shock 18 pants is MAST, M-A-S-T, pants? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that stands for medical anti-shock 21 trousers? 22 A: I believe that's correct. 23 Q: Yeah, okay. And lastly, Mr. Gilpin, 24 I'm going to ask that a picture be put up on the screen, 25 that we can look at. And just so you know where this


1 comes from, Mr. Gilpin, we are going to be speaking at 2 some length, I'd anticipate, over the next while about 3 events that took place at Strathroy Hospital. 4 And many of us have never seen Strathroy 5 Hospital or can't locate positions in it very well. And 6 we thought it might be of assistance to the Commission if 7 we had a picture that was consistent with the appearance 8 of Strathroy Hospital in 1995. 9 And I take it, Mr. Gilpin, that in 1995 you 10 would have been to Strathroy Hospital on a number of 11 occasions? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. Can you tell us whether or not 14 this picture represents what the facility looked like in 15 1995, in or about September of '95? 16 A: In my view, it accurately depicts the 17 Strathroy Hospital Emergency Department. 18 Q: Okay. And can you help us understand 19 what we're seeing, it looks like, for example, that there 20 is a roadway that leads, along the left-hand side of the 21 building, and that there's an open area there with a roof 22 on top; is that right? 23 A: That's correct 24 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what we're 25 seeing on the left-hand side of that building then?


1 A: That's the -- the emergency entrance. 2 Generally, ambulances were to use the right-hand side of 3 that entrance. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And through traffic, obviously, 6 there's people always being dropped off at Emerg. -- 7 Q: Right. 8 A: -- requiring wheelchairs et cetera, et 9 cetera. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: However, in the event there was more 12 than one (1) ambulance there, it would not be uncommon for 13 the ambulances to use both -- both entrances and -- and to 14 sit side-by-side in that entrance. 15 Q: Okay. In that area under the -- the 16 open area under what looks like the roof, that would be 17 referred to as 'the ramp?' 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is that right? And, from what you 20 say, there's room there for at least two (2) vehicles to 21 park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And can you tell us whether to 24 the far left of the ramp, is there a parking lot over 25 there?


1 A: Yes, there is. 2 Q: Okay. And can you give us 3 approximately some idea of how big the parking lot is that 4 is around or beside the Emergency Department? 5 A: I would estimate that the parking lot 6 would be as wide as this room itself. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Approximately, if I can use 9 approximate, maybe 200 feet. 10 Q: Okay. So, there would be room there 11 for parking for what, fifty (50) cars? 12 A: Yes, it's quite a lengthy parking lot 13 as well in there. It's not too wide, but it certainly 14 goes way back to that garage at the back you can just 15 faintly see. 16 Q: Yeah. And how do you get to the 17 Emergency Department? What we see is that there's a 18 roadway leading to it that goes past, it looks like, the 19 hospital sign in front? 20 Is there an entranceway at the back of the 21 Emergency Department as well? 22 A: No, there's only one (1) entrance and, 23 unfortunately, this picture seems to depict it on an 24 angle. 25 Q: Yeah.


1 A: As I recall, the entrance into the 2 Emerg. is a direct access in, so I can't tell if this 3 picture's been sort of, taken at an angle or not, but -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- as I recall, the entrance from 6 Currie (phonetic) Street, I believe, is a direct entrance 7 in and there are no other entrances into the Emergency. 8 Q: And no other exits? 9 A: Well, there's an exit to the far 10 right. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: You can't see on this picture, but 13 there's no way you can around the hospital. 14 Q: Okay. So, you can't drive around the 15 back of the hospital -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- to get to that exit? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, those are my 20 questions and I'm wondering if we might mark this picture 21 as the next exhibit, this picture of Strathroy Hospital? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-377. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-377. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-377: Picture of Strathroy Middlesex


1 General Hospital showing 2 Emergency entrance 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much, Ms. Jones. 6 Mr. O'Marra...? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 11 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Mr. 12 Gilpin, my name is Al O'Marra and I appear on behalf of 13 the Chief Coroner for the province. And I have some 14 questions that I'd like to deal with around times and -- 15 and distances. 16 And I'm not going to go through all the 17 documentation with the various recorded times from the 18 Call Centre at Wallaceburg, but I've asked Mr. Emery to 19 put up P-349, I believe is the exhibit number. And if we 20 could focus on the area that shows Army Camp Road and 21 Highway 21 intersection down through to Nauvoo Road, 22 initially. 23 And, what I'd like to do, Mr. Kilpin, is -- 24 is -- or Gilpin, rather, excuse me, is to sort of trace 25 the route and the approximate distances past Nauvoo Road


1 in through to Strathroy and the Strathroy Middlesex 2 General Hospital. All right, sir? 3 A: All right. 4 Q: And there is a start time that I'd 5 like to -- to work with and what we do have is from the 6 transcripted calls, a time as Mr. Commissioner said, 7 starting at 23:06, okay? 8 Now, as I understand it, when you got your 9 call, you were at the intersection of Highway 21 and Army 10 Camp Road and that this was to the address of 6480 Nauvoo 11 Road? 12 A: Yes, that's where we responded from. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Yes that's where we responded from. 15 Q: And it was in and around, give or take 16 if we accept the -- at least the recordings of -- of -- 17 the Call Centre at around 11:30/11:31; is that correct? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Okay. Now you've indicated that you - 20 - that you travelled down the remainder of Army Camp Road 21 to Raven's Wood, and I'm going to give you some distances 22 and you're -- you're free to agree or disagree, but within 23 a tenth or so of a kilometre, as I understand it, between 24 Army Camp Road or that length of Army Camp Road to Raven's 25 Wood is approximately two point two (2.2) kilometres, give


1 or take. 2 Then you went from Raven's Wood -- or 3 across Raven's Wood -- oh we lost it -- to Northville, and 4 as I understand it, that's approximately four point two 5 (4.2) kilometres. 6 Then you went down Northville and you ended 7 your -- your call, or at least when you got the call to 8 cancel it, just near the intersection or above the 9 intersection of Northville and Townsend Line; is that 10 correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Were you within a kilometre or so of 13 Townsend? 14 A: I can't exactly recall. I remember 15 driving down to the intersection anyway to -- it's easier 16 to turn a truck around like that -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: -- at an intersection. 19 Q: But you had been on the call, based on 20 your best recollection for about twelve (12) to fifteen 21 (15) minutes, up to that point? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to you 24 that the length of Northville down to Townsend is nine 25 point six (9.6) kilometres.


1 So, if we look at all of that distance, 2 Army Camp Road, Raven's Wood and Northville, down to the 3 intersection of Townsend, we're looking at approximately 4 sixteen (16) kilometres. 5 Is that -- is that a fair recount? 6 A: Yeah, sure. I'd have to do it myself, 7 but I -- 8 Q: Sure. But if you add those figures 9 up, it's about sixteen (16) kilometres and that's a fair 10 amount of time that -- that you've estimated, of twelve 11 (12) to fifteen (15) minutes to cover that approximate 12 distance. 13 You said you were travelling at about 14 eighty (80) or so on gravel and then a hundred and ten 15 (110) or plus on the paved portions; correct? 16 A: And -- and don't forget we had to do a 17 couple of turns in there too, but -- 18 Q: Some turns, sure -- 19 A: Sure -- 20 Q: -- you had to slow and turn, okay. 21 Now, so you're about, at the outside, 22 fifteen (15) minutes into this response; correct? 23 A: At the very outside, yes. 24 Q: At the very outside. Now, I'm going 25 to suggest to you that from Townsend to Nauvoo is in the


1 neighbourhood of about half a kilometre at the most. 2 So you've got two (2) turns to make and a 3 short distance to traverse, and then from the corner of 4 Nauvoo to 6480 is four point three (4.3) kilometres. 5 So, from the intersection of Northville and 6 Townshead to Nauvoo, we're looking at approximately four 7 point eight (4.8) or give or take, five (5) kilometres. 8 And you've estimated about four (4) to five 9 (5) minutes to cover that distance. 10 A: That was my estimate, yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And I think that accords with 12 your -- your partner that night, that he indicated the 13 entire route, from call when you departed to Nauvoo Road, 14 about twenty (20) minutes. 15 A: Tops. 16 Q: Okay, tops, okay. And can you just 17 take us through -- in responding -- in assuming that you 18 arrived at 6480 and there was no hesitation, you had 19 immediate access to the person who was reported to have 20 been wounded, would there have been time at the scene in 21 terms of -- of assessing the patient and setting up for 22 transport? 23 Would you have been on scene for a period 24 of time? 25 A: Definitely we would have been on


1 scene, you know, have to determine the nature of the 2 injury and what not. 3 Q: Would there be any way to estimate the 4 period of time that you would have been on -- on scene? 5 Dealing with a -- of a serious trauma injury? 6 A: It's a tough one, you had to -- you 7 know, had to get the guy out of the back seat if he was in 8 the back or wherever, but I would think because it was a 9 serious call, we'd certainly want to get loaded and get 10 moving. 11 Q: Okay. So would five (5) minutes be an 12 appropriate estimate; less or more? 13 A: Could be -- could be longer, but 14 that's fair, I'll play with that. 15 Q: Five (5) minutes would be a fair 16 estimate; would be a rapid estimate? 17 A: That's rapid, yes. 18 Q: Rapid, okay. Well, let's make at most 19 rapid because of the seriousness of -- of the call. Five 20 (5) minutes at scene. 21 Now, I'm also going to suggest to you that 22 the distance from Nauvoo Road to the stop sign at Egremont 23 (phonetic) or highway -- or County Road 22 is four point 24 three (4.3), or excuse me, four point two (4.2) 25 kilometres.


1 That would take another three (3) or four 2 (4) minutes, top speed? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And then, the direct route into 5 Strathroy would either be 22, or Egremont to Highway 81 or 6 the 402; is that correct? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And both 402 and 22 are parallel 9 roads; they're virtually the same distance? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to you 12 that going across Egremont to -- to Centre or Highway 81 13 is twenty point two (20.2) kilometres and then down from 14 Centre to the hospital just over five (5) kilometres? 15 So we're looking at, from Nauvoo Road to 16 the hospital, taking the most direct route, in and 17 around thirty (30) kilometre; is that fair? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. So, if at the twenty-five (25) 20 minute mark you've left from Nauvoo Road, from when you 21 originally left on your call, are you able to give us some 22 estimate as to what you would have been able to do in 23 terms of traversing that thirty (30) kilometres? 24 A: You mean transport time? 25 Q: Code 4, yeah.


1 A: Probably in the neighbourhood of 2 twenty-five (25) minutes, I think, is reasonable. 3 Q: So then, if -- just in terms of the -- 4 the entire time, then, from departing on your dispatch to 5 arriving and -- and obtaining your patient, securing your 6 patient and then departing again to arrive at the 7 Strathroy Hospital would be approximately twenty-five (25) 8 plus twenty-five (25), so, we're looking at about fifty 9 (50) minutes; is that correct? 10 A: Yes, very close to that. 11 Q: Okay. And if you had then -- it's 12 just a matter of -- of mathematics, but if you -- if you 13 had departed about 11:30 or 11:32, your -- your best time 14 based on your estimate, arrival at the Strathroy Middlesex 15 General Hospital would then take you to 12:20 -- 12:15 to 16 12:20? 17 A: Pretty close to that, yes, sir. 18 Q: Okay. And that -- and that's -- 19 that's a best case scenario based on those distances; is 20 that -- is that fair to say? 21 A: I think that's fair. 22 Q: Okay. And, we -- we know that at 23 least in terms of a start time to events, at 12:00 -- or 24 11:06, if Mr. George is being taken from the Army Camp 25 some time after 11:06, and presumably before you're called


1 out to -- to go to Army Camp Road and Highway 21, and he's 2 pronounced at -- at 12:20. Again, presumably he arrives 3 some time just after midnight. 4 In the best case scenario, in terms of your 5 response to this event, you wouldn't have arrived any 6 sooner than Mr. George had -- had been delivered to the 7 hospital that night? 8 A: If -- I -- I don't know what time Mr. 9 George arrived at the hospital. 10 Q: If we're looking at some time before 11 12:20, there's a period of resuscitation -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- of at least ten (10) to fifteen 14 (15) minutes. 15 A: All right. 16 Q: He arrived long before you would have 17 arrived with him; is that correct? 18 A: It would appear that, yes. 19 Q: Now, sir, I'd like to move to your 20 role with the -- is it the Thames Emergency Medical 21 Service? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Questions were asked of you 24 about the different types of paramedics and you spoke of 25 Level I, which you -- you were in '95?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then, there's Level II or the 3 advanced care paramedics and you described for us about 4 the different kinds of things that they can do as -- as -- 5 in -- in contrast to what Level I's can do, but what I'd 6 like to ask you is -- is, what's the proportion now of 7 Level I's to Level II's within the Thames Emergency 8 Medical Service? 9 A: You mean full-time and part-time 10 complements and -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Generally, at Thames EMS at London, we 13 have about a hundred and twenty (120) full-time staff and 14 of that group, we have approximately twenty-two (22) to 15 twenty-four (24) full-time P2's and about four (4) part- 16 time P2's. 17 Q: Okay. Of those P2's or advanced care 18 paramedics, do you have constant coverage? In other 19 words, are there always advanced care paramedics available 20 or do you have certain units that are just Level 1 and -- 21 and other units that are Level 2? How do you distribute 22 the -- 23 A: What you're asking is quite a complex 24 question but, essentially, no, there's no -- in our 25 contract there are no commitment levels in terms of P2


1 coverage. However, I can tell you that we are presently 2 in a training mood -- mode to put more Advanced Care 3 Paramedics, to train them inhouse now. And our -- our 4 goal is to have a P2 on every truck. 5 Q: To have -- 6 A: But, We have not achieved that yet. 7 Q: Okay. Is -- is there a timeframe to 8 that? Do you have a five (5) year plan or -- 9 A: We -- we suspect that we can do it in 10 five (5) years. Our -- our first class, if you like, have 11 not graduated yet, they're just in the didactic -- the 12 didactically process of it. 13 So, it takes a good year to get, you know, 14 the -- the training involved, and then for the staff to do 15 their training with another P2 as well. It's quite a 16 complex -- it's very complex. 17 Q: Right. Perhaps you can assist us as 18 well, to your knowledge, are there -- are there other 19 municipalities or regions where there's full Advanced Care 20 Paramedic coverage? 21 A: I -- I'm not familiar with, you know - 22 - I think around the GTA there's certainly a number of P2 23 services, but I can't really -- it's unfair for me to 24 comment because -- 25 Q: Sure.


1 A: -- I really don't know the statistical 2 numbers -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- that they have on them. But I know 5 there's a -- a great deal of P2's in the GTA. 6 Q: But it's something that services are 7 working towards, to -- to develop increased coverage with 8 Advanced Care Paramedics? 9 A: Some services are, yes, and some 10 aren't. 11 Q: Okay. And yours is though -- 12 A: The Thames one is. 13 Q: And are you involved as a -- as a 14 service in emergency planning within -- within the region? 15 A: In terms of -- 16 Q: Do you have representation at a 17 municipal or regional planning committee to deal with 18 emergencies? 19 A: Generally that's an operational issue 20 and -- and my partner often does that type of work. 21 Q: Okay. But -- so your partner is 22 engaged in that activity? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And -- and it deals with 25 responding to disasters?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Does it deal with responding to public 3 order events that police may be engaged in, such as what 4 we're dealing here, strikes or demonstrations, or other 5 events where there's a gathering of people where there may 6 be conflict? 7 A: I can't say it does; I don't have 8 that. I know it deals with the disaster-type issues but I 9 can't specifically say it deals with those situations. 10 Q: Okay. But, I take it that that -- 11 that's something that, if it was available, a service such 12 as your would -- would readily participate in? 13 A: Most definitely. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 15 Those are my questions. 16 A: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank very 18 much. 19 Ms. Vella...? 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. And just as 21 a matter of -- of record keeping, I've asked Mr. Emery, as 22 you can see, he has attached the -- the route that was 23 proposed by Mr. O'Marra would have been taken from -- on 24 Nauvoo, from Townsend through to Strathroy Hospital. 25 And, for the record, I'd like that route to


1 become part of the map, 349. 2 In addition, this map capability allows us 3 to have exact distance measured. And I've asked Mr. Emery 4 to attach the distance -- relative distances on each 5 segment of the route. And that will also become part of 6 this exhibit. 7 Mr. Gilpin, I want to thank you very much 8 for coming today and -- and sharing your testimony with 9 us. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 11 you thank him, Mr. O'Marra -- 12 MR. AL O'MARRA: No, I'm sorry, I didn't 13 have -- I just wanted to -- to suggest that with respect 14 to this exhibit, that -- that it be included as well as an 15 alternate route, 402, that I mentioned to Mr. Gilpin. 16 They both are parallel; 22 and 402. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. So I'll Mr. 18 Emery to extend the route along Nauvoo Road to 402, and 19 then -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The distance 21 doesn't change, it's -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It probably doesn't. 23 And then the 402 to Centre Drive, was it? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Thank you


1 very much. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. Gilpin. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much for coming and giving us your evidence. Thank 7 you, very kind. 8 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 10 finished now. 11 12 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's now five 15 (5) to 4:00... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 20 you call your next witness, Mr. Worme, it looks like we 21 have something to sort out. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We just have a bit of a 23 discussion. I wonder if -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- you could just give


1 us a second here. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 3 could just -- no, it's all right, you can sit down. 4 We'll just wait and see what's happening 5 here. I don't know exactly what's going on. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 10 sorry for the interruption. Perhaps I can explain in -- 11 when Mr. Gilpin was marking on the diagram the times that 12 he arrived in the MNR parking lot, we -- we weren't sure 13 if the number that was put down at that time was the same 14 as what he had said in his cross-examination. We just 15 wanted to check and make sure that it was accurate. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: So I'm sorry for the 18 interruption. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 20 fine. Is it correct, have we got it right or do we have 21 to change it? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, we don't have to 23 change it. It was initially recorded accurately. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 3 Worme. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Good afternoon, 5 Commissioner. I recognize the hour is growing late, but I 6 can assure you and My Friends that this witness is meant 7 to testify in a fairly narrow scope, and presumably we 8 would get done within our normal time. 9 I also know that we have been going late 10 consistently this week and -- and with My Friend's 11 indulgence and of course, yours, Commissioner, if 12 necessary we could continue that practice today. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see how 14 far we get and how we all feel at a reasonable hour. 15 How long do you -- well, I shouldn't ask 16 that question before you start. But how long do you think 17 you might be? You can't tell on cross until we heard -- 18 MR. DONALD WORME: If the Witness -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 20 examination -- 21 MR. DONALD WORME: -- is indicating five 22 (5) minutes, but I think I'll be maybe twenty-five (25) 23 minutes longer than that. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty-five 25 (25) minutes? Well, we'll have to wait and see how long


1 the cross-examination may be before we can make any -- 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Certainly, thank you -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 4 determination. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: -- Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I certainly 7 don't want to sit until almost six o'clock again, that's 8 for sure. So we'll see how long the cross is going to be 9 before we make that decision. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that, 11 sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: So the Commission will 14 call, then, Robert Scott. He will swear. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 18 ROBERT KENNETH SCOTT, Sworn: 19 20 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: Mr. Scott, you were born August 6th, 22 1965? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And you had trained in 1990 at 25 Fanshawe College taking a one (1) year ambulance emergency


1 care course? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: I understand that you were employed as 4 a level 1 provincial P-1 paramedic with Lambton Middlesex 5 ambulance, which is now Thames Emergency Medical Services? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you retired from that full-time 8 position in 1999? 9 A: I'm sorry? 10 Q: You retired from that position in 11 1999? 12 A: Actually, I retired about three (3) 13 days ago. I stopped working full-time in '99. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: And I continue working casual hours up 16 until approximately a week ago. 17 Q: I see. And although it's -- although 18 it's somewhat unrelated, you are presently the Native 19 liaison officer with the London City police service? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: In 1995, sir, you were based out of 22 Glencoe, Ontario? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: That's the ambulance station in 25 Glencoe?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And on the 6th of September of 1995, 3 sir, I understand that you were on shift, that is, you 4 were on duty? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Can you recall the shift that you 7 would have worked on that day? 8 A: I would have been -- having working 9 the 5:00 until 1:00 shift, first shift comes on at 7:00 in 10 the morning til 5:00, I was the secondary shift, working 11 from 5:00 in the afternoon til 1:00 in the morning, and 12 then there's on call from 1:00 until 7:00 the next 13 morning, where we go home with the pagers. 14 Q: And you're simply on standby and 15 you're prepared to move if necessary? 16 A: Correct, within ten (10) minutes when 17 the pager goes off, we were supposed to be in the 18 ambulance and saying we're 10-8. 19 Q: All right, and your partner that -- on 20 that occasion... 21 A: Was Mark Weiss. 22 Q: Okay. Can you recall today, sir, 23 whether you were the driver or whether you were the 24 attendant? I understand those are essentially the 25 positions?


1 A: That's correct. I was the attendant. 2 We flip-flopped between calls. The call before that I 3 would have been the driver, and this call, the next call I 4 was the attendant. 5 Q: And I understand that you were paged 6 at some point on that evening? 7 A: Yes -- 8 Q: I wonder if you would just tell us, 9 then, what it was that -- that happened and what you did? 10 A: I'm not correct -- I'm not entirely 11 sure what the exact time was, but we were paged and I 12 remember the call as a cardiac call, an elderly male 13 patient in Glencoe that we would have transported into 14 Strathroy. 15 Q: And just so I understand, sir, where 16 is Glen -- Glencoe -- in relation to Strathroy? 17 A: Glencoe is just south of Strathroy; 18 it's approximately a fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minute 19 drive. 20 Q: All right. So you transported a 21 cardiac patient into the Strathroy Middlesex General 22 Hospital Emergency Unit? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Go ahead, tell us what happens. 25 A: We picked the patient up in Glencoe.


1 I believe we were travelling Code 4, which was an 2 emergency call, lights and sirens en route on County Road 3 9, which we were probably two-thirds (2/3) of the way to 4 Strathroy. My partner Mark Weiss tapped in the window 5 informing me that he just received word, I believe it must 6 have been Wallaceburg dispatch. 7 At that point, there's a -- a boundary 8 where we switch from London dispatch over to Wallaceburg 9 dispatch. I believe at that point, we were probably in 10 Wallaceburg dispatch area. I believe at that point we 11 were probably in Wallaceburg dispatch area. Mark tapped 12 on the window; it's a one (1) by one (1) -- 1 foot by 1 13 foot window separating the crew quarters from the cabin 14 quarters in the back. He slid open the window and 15 informed me that we were now going to be staying at 16 Strathroy Hospital on request of Dispatch. 17 Q: And staying at Strathroy Hospital for 18 what purpose? 19 A: He didn't really specify. Again, I 20 wasn't paying too much attention to Mark at the time; I 21 had a cardiac patient in the back that I was attending to. 22 All I knew, Mark was just giving me a heads up we were 23 going to be at Strathroy for a bit longer. 24 Q: You didn't know whether it might be 25 another occurrence, a transport or...


1 A: It could have been various things. I 2 mean, a situation like that happens all the time where 3 there's another patient who may be going back to our area 4 and they're just waiting to save monetary dollars; waiting 5 til our local ambulance from my area goes to Strathroy and 6 bring the other patient back or we could have been 7 transporting further on to London. 8 Q: And, understandably, you were busy in 9 the back with your cardiac patient and on arriving at the 10 Emergency -- Emergency of Strathroy Hospital, what -- what 11 happens? What do you see? 12 A: In all fairness, I'm looking at my 13 notes now, I gave two (2) different statements here, one 14 (1) a year after the other. The first statement, I 15 believe, reflects more of what I saw. There was police 16 officers on the scene. 17 Q: Let me just stop you there, if I may. 18 When you say you're -- you're referring to a statement, 19 which statement is it that you have -- have reviewed? 20 A: I have statements from a Detective 21 Armstrong from Peel, dated February 13th, 2003. In that 22 statement, I noted to Mr. Armstrong that I had seen -- 23 Q: Let me -- let me just interrupt you, I 24 may. 25 A: Sure.


1 Q: I'm sorry, Mr. Scott. That is Inquiry 2 Document 5000186? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And it is an interview of Robert Scott 5 by Detective Armstrong as per the date you've just 6 indicated? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Go ahead. 9 A: So, on page -- or Document Number 2484 10 on the top of this page, I've noted that there was 11 approximately six (6) officers outside that I noted on our 12 arrival; male/female, I really couldn't say for the fact 13 that -- 14 Q: You -- you've had an opportunity to 15 review that document, sir, did it assist you in terms of 16 refreshing your memory; that is to say, do you have a 17 present recall of -- of those observations as recorded? 18 A: I would say 90 percent. 100 percent 19 sure about seeing the officers there, I'm not, but I would 20 take my first statement over my second statement, to be 21 honest. Again, it's more fresh in my mind. 22 Q: Just so everyone is clear, what is the 23 second statement that you're referring to? 24 A: There's a secondary statement dated 25 August 12th of 2004 taken at London Police Headquarters


1 transcribed by a Rick Moss from this Inquiry. 2 Q: That would simply be the interview 3 that was conducted with the Inquiry investigators? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. In any event, you've 6 referred to that document at Tab 1. And it's your 7 evidence, sir, that that better reflects your 8 recollections; is that fair? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Go ahead. You were indicating that 11 you arrived at the hospital, noted a number of police 12 officers in the vicinity? 13 A: Noted police officers in the vicinity 14 and, again, an exact number, no, for the fact that I'm 15 still an emergency paramedic where I have an emergency in 16 the back, so I'm not stopping. I'm gawking at what's 17 going on around me. I'm bringing the patient in, would 18 have brought the patient into the trauma unit, into the 19 doctors and nurses on scene. 20 From that point on, we would have dropped 21 the patient off. One (1) -- Mark would have called the 22 Wallaceburg dispatch and asked for directions, if we 23 continue from here, what do we do. 24 My role would have been to get the 25 stretcher made up for the next call. Since we knew we


1 were sticking around; we would have just left the 2 stretcher in the hospital. Again, we weren't privy as to 3 what was going on at this point still. 4 Q: No one advised you what -- what you 5 might expect? 6 A: Mark may have known more than I did, 7 he had the radio. Mark's talking to whoever on the main 8 radio as he's driving. And when Mark leaves the ambulance 9 he brings a portable radio with him as well. At that 10 point we're going to separate; I'm doing my paperwork and 11 Mark's doing the stretcher. So, he may have gotten more 12 information that I wasn't privy to. 13 Q: Yeah. Continue. 14 A: So, at that point we wait around. 15 Again -- again, I don't have a timeframe but I do remember 16 going outside of -- I hear a commotion going on outside. 17 I probably seen movement because the Emerg. at Strathroy 18 has wide sliding doors, so you can see movement, what have 19 you, going on outside, and I more likely would have just 20 stayed right in the Emerg. front entrance. 21 Go outside and I see to my left, which 22 would be coming from the east, a large white vehicle 23 coming in, coming in fairly quickly actually. I see 24 sparks flying from the front, I believe it was the front 25 driver side I see sparks coming from.


1 At that point I see officers converging 2 from either side onto the vehicle. At that point, I'm not 3 a police officer, this had nothing to do with me, I backed 4 into Emerg. again, let whoever has to deal with what's 5 going on. 6 Again, natural curiosity, I go back out 7 again, probably within ten (10) to twenty (20) seconds. 8 At that point I look to my left from Emerg. and I see a -- 9 a Native female, probably thirty (30) to forty (40) years 10 old, long dark brown, dark black hair, she was up against 11 the wall in a -- a search position with the legs prone and 12 the arms up on the wall. 13 I believe there was two (2) to three (3) 14 officers trying to detain her and two (2) to three (3) 15 officers standing back. This lady was actually quite 16 frantic, I -- I guess you could say resisting arrest but I 17 would think more so for the fact that I think she was 18 trying to get to who, I know now is her brother, Mr. 19 Dudley George, in the back of the ambulance. 20 And I do remember her yelling -- 21 Q: Sorry. In the back of...? 22 A: Back of the white car. 23 Q: Yes. Continue. 24 A: And I do remember her yelling: "My 25 brother. My brother."


1 Again, at this point I have no idea what's 2 going on. So, I look in the back of the white car -- I 3 look in the front first of all, I don't see anything 4 unusual in the front, nothing to catch my eye. 5 I look in the back and I see, now who I 6 know, is Mr. Dudley George... 7 Q: Perhaps we can just take a moment 8 here. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Mr. Scott, I think I'm going to ask 13 you if you just might -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 O'Marra...? 16 MR. AL O'MARRA: I actually just wanted to 17 ask if Mr. Scott could -- could slow his pace somewhat. 18 It's very difficult to get all the information he's 19 provided so quickly. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 21 MR. DONALD WORME: I -- I apologize -- 22 THE WITNESS: Oh. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: -- for that. I ought 24 to have been a little more observant. 25


1 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: So I -- I am going to ask you if you 3 might slow down a bit, sir. 4 A: Okay. Is there a spot where you want 5 me to pick up again? 6 MR. AL O'MARRA: "My brother. My 7 brother." 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. "My 9 brother. My brother." 10 I -- I remember hearing that. I'm not 11 making fun, ladies and gentlemen. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: I understand that. 15 A: I -- I do remember this lady yelling: 16 "My brother. My brother." 17 I looked inside the vehicle, again, quick 18 scan. My number 1 priority from first day of ambulance 19 until I retired three (3) days ago is safety of the scene. 20 If you get hurt, you're not help to anybody else. So, you 21 survey the scene. 22 Looked inside, didn't see anything unusual 23 in the front seat. Looked in the back and I saw whom -- a 24 person who I now know as Mr. Dudley George, blue jeans, no 25 shirt, and he was, again, hopefully I get this correct,


1 his back was to the back of the car seat, the rear seat, 2 and he was laying on his side. His feet would have been 3 facing me, so his head would have been facing south. 4 Again, I looked inside again, didn't do 5 anything at this time because there's was police officers 6 around everywhere. This is nothing to do with me at this 7 point. 8 Q: Let me just ask you, were there any 9 police cars -- police, rather, officers around you or 10 around the white vehicle? 11 A: I don't remember seeing anyone around 12 the white vehicle. Again, everyone was to the left of me, 13 concentrating on the lady who they had up against the 14 wall. After she yelled: "My brother. My brother." I 15 kind of lost track and more tunnel-visioned on the person 16 in the back. 17 Again, as a paramedic, I'm there to assist 18 the sick and ill. It's not -- I'm not a police officer at 19 that point. 20 So, anyhow, I look in the back, I step back 21 waiting for someone to tell me to get away from the car, 22 well, wait for someone to tell me to go into the car. 23 No one's saying anything to me at all. So 24 I back up, I'm not sure if I actually went into Emerg. or 25 not, but I do remember backing up.


1 I go forward again. I open the back door 2 of the car up -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- and I'm waiting for someone to give 5 me direction. 6 Q: All right, let me just interrupt you 7 there again if I may, Mr. Scott. 8 Just a couple of points that you'd made. 9 When you observed the -- the native female and there were 10 officers that are preoccupied, I think you said, with her? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did you notice whether there were any 13 other individuals that may have come from that same 14 vehicle? 15 A: No, when the vehicle first pulled in, 16 excuse me, again I see the sparks flying, I see the police 17 officers converging on the vehicle, and at that point I 18 backed out. 19 By the time I went back outside again, 20 evidently there was three (3) other persons in the 21 vehicle. I didn't see anyone driving; I didn't see anyone 22 else getting taken from the vehicle. 23 I only saw the one (1) person as she was 24 already out of the vehicle being searched -- being 25 detained against the hospital wall.


1 Q: And with respect to the police 2 officers, do you recall how it was that they were attired, 3 how were they dressed? 4 A: I just remember seeing them black, and 5 I do remember seeing some Stetsons there as well. If they 6 had Stetsons on, that wouldn't be in full tactical guard. 7 I don't remember seeing any tactical gear, 8 it was all just straight, full uniform. 9 Q: When you were inside the emergency 10 unit, did you notice any police officers in there? 11 A: In the Emerg. itself? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: No, I can't recall seeing anybody in 14 there. 15 Q: Okay. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: You look into the vehicle, initially, 20 and then step back, I think you said? 21 A: Again, yes, I did. 22 Q: Okay, you returned to the vehicle? 23 A: I returned to the vehicle. Again, I'm 24 looking for direction from someone. It's not my scene. 25 Again, I still don't know what's going on.


1 I don't know if -- what's wrong with the 2 person in the back at this point, so again I make a 3 movement towards the vehicle, open the door up, look 4 inside, scan the area, don't see anything out of the 5 ordinary -- 6 Q: Okay, let me just interrupt you there 7 again if I may, Mr. Scott. 8 What were you looking for? 9 A: A reason why this person's in the back 10 seat, unresponsive. Obviously something has happened, why 11 this person's in the back seat and there's a police 12 presence. 13 Q: You also mentioned something about 14 safety issues, if you get hurt you're no good to anybody. 15 What does that mean? What was that in relation to? 16 A: I'll give you an example. Of -- the 17 number one example they give in ambulance college and what 18 have you, if you go to a scene where you know there's an 19 electrical shock of some sort, you're not going to walk on 20 live wires. You're going to have Ontario Hydro there, cut 21 the power off. This person may be dying in front of you, 22 but there's nothing you can do at this point because you 23 end up hurting yourself. 24 Just scene safety. Doesn't matter what the 25 scene is, you make sure the scene's safe before you go in.


1 Q: All right. And I guess what I was -- 2 I was getting at, did you have a specific concern, for 3 example, the presence of weapons? 4 A: None. I had no idea what was going on 5 at this time. 6 Q: Okay. Go ahead, so you -- you opened 7 the vehicle -- 8 A: Opened the vehicle up, look inside. I 9 see that there's a person unresponsive. At this point I'm 10 not sure if he's VSA, vital signs absent, or what the 11 exact problem is. 12 I don't notice any chest movement. Again, 13 you go back to your ABCs, airway, breathing, circulation. 14 Is his airway patterned, is he pushing air -- I'm not sure 15 if his mouth was open or not, but there was obviously no 16 obstructions in his mouth. 17 You look for breathing next. Do I see the 18 chest rising? Chest wasn't rising. Do I see the 19 abdominal movement? No abdominal movement. 20 C for circulation: is there a lot of blood 21 on the ground? I didn't -- actually didn't see any blood 22 at all, there was nothing to make me stop and think, well, 23 I'll put some gloves on here, 'cause I don't -- at this 24 point I didn't put any gloves on. 25 Normally, 99.9 percent of the time you have


1 gloves on if there's a scenario where there's a lot of 2 trauma. 3 Slow down a bit again? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 THE WITNESS: All right. So no gloves 8 were on, and -- and then I would have done a carotid 9 pulse. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Right. 13 A: That's, again, part of the C for 14 circulation to see if he has a pulse or not. There's no 15 carotid pulse. 16 I'm checking just along the jugular vein 17 here, no carotid pulse whatsoever. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For the 19 record, Mr. O'Marra, our transcript is having no 20 difficulty. 21 MR. AL O'MARRA: I guess I'll rely on 22 that. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: And aside from that preliminary


1 assessment, you -- you make these observations. What do 2 you do from there, Mr. Scott? 3 A: Well, I can make these observations 4 within about five (5) seconds. It's a visual -- a visual 5 and the feel for the carotid pulse, so then I back out 6 once more, again, waiting for direction; because now I'm 7 actually on the inside of the vehicle, because I would 8 have had to actually go right inside to do the carotid 9 pulse check. 10 I back out again, waiting for something to 11 happen. 12 Q: Where are the police officers that 13 were preoccupied with the native female? 14 A: No idea, at this -- again, at this 15 point I've got tunnel vision just on this person in the 16 back. I don't hear, see, or know what's going on 17 around me at this time. 18 I know my stretcher's still in Emerg., so 19 at this point I go get my stretcher thinking that I'm 20 moving the stretcher that's six (6) feet long, seventy- 21 five (75) pounds and huge; someone's going to see me 22 making a move towards the car. Someone's going to tell me 23 to stop, get out of there, continue what your doing. He 24 had no movement. 25 So, I put the stretcher alongside the car,


1 the door's still open. Again, I go inside with the 2 attempt of moving Mr. Dudley George onto my stretcher, 3 then I had to look up and I actually yelled out, Guys, I 4 can't do this on my own. 5 Q: And, who were you yelling to when you 6 say, "Guys, I can't do this on my own?" 7 A: Anybody who's listening. 8 Q: Anyone in earshot? 9 A: Anyone in earshot and I believe at 10 that time, Mark Weiss is coming out and he starts giving 11 me a hand. Reading the other reports, it sounds like 12 there was other paramedics around and nursing staff around 13 giving me a hand at that time as well. 14 Q: And, I take it, because of your tunnel 15 vision, as you've described it, you have no recollection 16 of other individuals assisting you? 17 A: There was other individuals assisting 18 me, who they were -- I know one (1) was Mark; Mark 19 would have came down at that time. I believe there was 20 other paramedics. From reading other transcripts, there 21 were other paramedics there as well. I couldn't give you 22 a name, I couldn't tell you who they were to be honest. 23 Q: They assisted you? 24 A: Assisted me and vice versa. I 25 assisted them getting Mr. George onto the stretcher and


1 into Emerg. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Can I ask you, sir, from the time that 6 see the vehicle coming in, sparks flying, to the time that 7 you got who you know to be Dudley George onto the 8 stretcher and into Emergency, can you estimate time? How 9 much time has -- has elapsed? 10 A: I would say within under two (2) 11 minutes. Under -- two (2) to three (3) minutes. I can't 12 say any more than that. In my mind, it would probably 13 seem longer, but in reality I'm sure the vehicle was 14 cleared fairly quickly as soon as it came in. 15 From the time I saw the vehicle come in and 16 from the time I got out to the vehicle the second time, 17 I'm sure the officers would have the vehicle cleared 18 within fifteen (15) to twenty (20) seconds and had 19 everyone who was in the vehicle pulled out. So, there's 20 twenty (20) seconds there. 21 The amount of time that I back in and back 22 out of the vehicle, I'm sure wouldn't be any more than a 23 minute -- minute and a half and my stretcher was ready in 24 Emerg. If you saw the picture there, the ramp is right 25 beside Emerg, so I would just have to walk in, get my


1 stretcher and walk back out the vehicle. So -- 2 Q: Your best estimate, then, two (2) to 3 three (3) minutes? 4 A: Two (2) minutes. Two (2) to three (3) 5 minutes tops. 6 Q: All right. What do you do as you're - 7 - as -- or, what's happening as you're taking the patient, 8 then, into the Emergency Unit? 9 A: I apologize. What was that? 10 Q: What -- what was happening? What were 11 you doing or what was your partner doing or others, if you 12 can recall -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- as you're taking the patient into 15 the Emergency? 16 A: Someone would be doing CPR and I 17 believe Mark Weiss was doing CPR at that time. Since I 18 had the foot of the stretcher, more than likely I was the 19 person who was leading the stretcher into Emerg, into the 20 Trauma Room. 21 At that point, we would bring, excuse me, 22 we would bring Mr. George into the Trauma Room, which is - 23 - wouldn't take more than ten (10) seconds, it's right off 24 Emerg. It's one (1) turn and then you're into the room. 25 Q: Once you get him into Emerg, what --


1 what happens? 2 A: Mr. George would have been on a sheet 3 and the most practical way to get a person from our 4 stretcher onto the hospital bed is called a sheet lift, 5 one (1) person on one (1) end, one (1) person on the other 6 end or on either side, pick the sheet up as a whole and 7 bring the person over onto the bed. 8 At that point, the hospital staff 9 would have taken over. Being a small hospital, as a 10 paramedic, we always volunteer; is there something that we 11 can do to help? We deal mainly with Four Counties and 12 with Strathroy Hospital. I believe I may have assisted in 13 the bagging and I believe Mr. Weiss, Mr. Weiss, would have 14 done the compressions at that time. 15 Q: You've just described -- you just 16 mentioned a procedure, "bagging?" 17 A: That's a BVM, a bag valve mask. It's 18 a bag that forces air into the lungs, 100 percent oxygen, 19 just to infuse the body with O2. 20 Q: All right. And where is your partner, 21 Weiss? What -- what is he doing in terms of -- you've 22 described another procedure, chest compressions? 23 A: I believe Mr. -- Mark Weiss would have 24 been doing chest compressions, that would have been just 25 jumping right up onto the bed and doing compressions.


1 I wish I could say 100 percent that was 2 Mark doing that and me doing the BVM, but I can't say, but 3 know we would have been assisting at one point and, again, 4 it's -- it's an organized swarm when you go into the 5 Emerg. 6 There's a lot of people moving around, but 7 everyone knows their role, everyone knows what they're 8 doing. The doctor's sort of a conductor for the first few 9 seconds, he's making sure everything's being done properly 10 and he's getting himself ready and the doctor's usually 11 intubating at that time. 12 Q: And do you recall those procedures 13 actually occurring? 14 A: I can't but, again, that's normal 15 procedure. I've done maybe forty (40) to sixty (60), if 16 not more, VSA's and that's the norm. The doctor is 17 conductor and the nurses are getting the equipment set up, 18 they're getting IV's set up, they're getting their drugs. 19 And because they were doing that, it's a 20 small hospital, again, the small hospitals we deal with, 21 we are doing extra, beyond what our duty is. 22 Q: You mentioned earlier that you didn't 23 see a lot of blood on the patient when he was in the 24 vehicle? 25 A: No. As a matter of fact, I didn't --


1 I can't recall seeing any blood at all. And that's why, 2 again, I didn't wear any gloves, I wasn't concerned about 3 any type of contamination from the blood. 4 When we brought Mr. George into the 5 hospital I -- I did notice a -- a wound on the lower left 6 clavicle. And I remember the doctors saying, Where's the 7 exit wound; and that's all I remember from that part of 8 it. 9 Q: Did you notice any other patients that 10 might have been in the emergency unit at the same time you 11 were there? 12 A: There was one (1) other person, it was 13 a young Native male and he looked like he was about 14 sixteen (16) years old. He was against the north wall -- 15 well, actually, when you walk into the trauma room he 16 would be on the left-hand side. He would have been on a 17 stretcher that was right against the wall. 18 And I remember him leaning on his side, 19 observing what was going on, sort of had a hand underneath 20 his chin, observing what was going on. I think he made a 21 few comments in regards to -- I'm sure he was in shock to 22 see a relative or a friend being brought into Emerg. so -- 23 Q: Is that the nature of the comments 24 that you -- that you heard? 25 A: I don't remember anything belligerent,


1 by any means. I just remember him making a few comments. 2 Q: I'm just wondering, you -- you said 3 that you thought that he might have been in shock; where 4 would you get that from? 5 A: Well, just from the shock -- from the 6 -- I'm sure his voice was risen when we came in, just for 7 the fact he obviously recognized who the person was that 8 we were bringing in, so. 9 Q: You don't recall what words that he 10 actually might have uttered? 11 A: No. Honestly, I don't. I couldn't 12 tell you that the next day, for the fact of it is there's 13 so much going on at that point. 14 Q: You've described some of the efforts 15 that you were engaged in, and your partner were engaged 16 in, although not certain as to exactly who was doing what; 17 what were the resuscitation efforts by the hospital staff 18 that you observed? 19 A: Again, everything's the norm. You -- 20 you've got your nurses who are getting the cardiac 21 medication, you've got another nurse getting the crash 22 cart, hooking leads up to see if there's a pulse or not. 23 They depend on that machine to decide how 24 much further they're going to go, is there a pulse, is the 25 heart beating, is -- is the heart producing anything at


1 all; and they base a lot of their care on that. 2 Nothing out of the ordinary. Again, I -- 3 I've seen this forty (40) to sixty (40) times. 4 Q: In terms of your initial observations, 5 there was no vital signs? 6 A: No vital signs. I didn't detect any 7 from the time I first came upon Mr. George in the back of 8 the car. 9 Q: And during the course of the 10 resuscitation efforts, even after taken over by hospital 11 personnel, was there any change to that? 12 A: None that I can remember. I do 13 remember a nurse or a doctor pronouncing at a certain 14 time; that's all I can remember. Again, they may have 15 been giving medical jargon that I didn't hear, I didn't 16 understand. 17 Q: Can you give us an estimation, sir, as 18 to the total amount of time that these resuscitation 19 efforts were employed? 20 A: Eight (8) to ten (10) minutes. Again, 21 I can't give you an educated guess on that. And, again, 22 time is flying quickly when you're in there. But, again, 23 from past experience, it will usually go between eight (8) 24 to ten (10) minutes. 25 And the doctor will know at that point, all


1 the medication they put into the person, is it working, is 2 it doing anything. And most times, unfortunately, in the 3 county, when we bring patients in they've been deceased 4 for a while, there's not -- not getting -- no chance of 5 getting them back. 6 Q: Was there anything, sir, that was done 7 in this instance that struck you as extraordinary or out 8 of the ordinary, rather? 9 A: No, not really. 10 Q: Did you notice at any time from the 11 time that -- that you had brought the patient into 12 emergency, at anytime before the -- the declaration was 13 made, that he was left unattended at all? 14 A: Absolutely not. Not -- not at any 15 time. 16 Q: All right. Did you notice what 17 happened to the -- the young person, the sixteen (16) year 18 old on the adjacent -- or in the same room, I should say? 19 A: I can't recall. All -- I can't recall 20 him being there when we came in. I'm not sure if he was 21 moved out. I imagine policy and procedure would be he 22 would be moved to another room for the fact of -- 23 Q: But you didn't see this? 24 A: I didn't see this, no, I didn't. 25 Q: And in the -- in the process of your


1 duties as an ambulance attendant and being involved in 2 this incident, did you prepare a report, sir? 3 A: In instances like this, we normally do 4 prepare a report. Where that report is, I don't know. 5 Would I do an ACR, accident call report? 6 Odds are I wouldn't, for the fact that we didn't 7 transport. This is something that came to us. We would 8 have done an incident report, however. 9 Again, I have no recollection on where my 10 incident report is and I don't believe Mark has one, 11 either. Odds are we may not have done one either, but. 12 Q: And in any event, those incident 13 reports are kept, as I understand, for a period not longer 14 than five (5) years? 15 A: Five (5) years is the norm. 16 Q: And you had never been contacted by 17 anybody until seven (7) years after this incident, to ask 18 for -- for your version or your story? 19 A: Surprisingly, yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Just have one (1) moment, please. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And just to go back to your earlier 4 comment, your observations with respect to the Native 5 woman, I think you had indicated it -- it didn't appear to 6 you that she was resisting arrest? 7 A: No, it didn't appear that she was 8 striking at the officers or anything along those lines. 9 It was more her -- more or less her trying to break free 10 of a grasp to get to her brother, trying to get to her 11 loved one like anyone else. 12 Q: Did you -- I'm sorry? 13 A: Just trying to get to a loved one, 14 obviously, and she was just trying to get to her brother 15 in the back of the car. 16 Q: Did you see her taken away? 17 A: I didn't. 18 Q: You wouldn't have seen her removed 19 from the grounds? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Do you know whether or not she was 22 able to supply any information with respect to the patient 23 or her brother in the back seat, to either you or any 24 other hospital staff? 25 A: No, I didn't get information from


1 anybody. 2 Q: All right. And is that typically the 3 kind of information that one would obtain, if -- if a 4 person were transported in by private vehicle? 5 A: Oh, definitely. I'd be asking the 6 person who was driving or whoever observed what was going 7 on what happened; basic question, what happened? That way 8 I can render first aid based on that. 9 If I knew it was a gunshot wound, I would 10 have concentrated on the policy procedure for a gunshot 11 wound. 12 Q: Did you think about maybe asking her 13 any of these questions? 14 A: At that point, no, for the fact of she 15 was in police custody by the sounds of it. And, again, 16 after I saw her and heard her yell, my brother, my 17 brother, again tunnel vision on Mr. George in the back of 18 the car. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: As you brought the patient into -- 23 into the Emerg. can you tell us whether or not there were 24 police officers accompanying? 25 A: I can't recall any police officers


1 going with us. 2 Q: What about assisting in -- in the 3 moving? 4 A: I can't recall. 5 Q: All right. Those are all the 6 questions that I have of Mr. Scott, Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much, Mr. Worme. 9 Does anybody wish to ask Mr. Scott any 10 questions? Okay, Mr. Orkin, how long do you intend -- 11 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Ten (10) minutes or 12 less. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 14 minutes or less? Mr. Rosenthal...? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Five (5) minutes or 16 less. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Five (5) minutes, no 19 more. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 21 Jackson...? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Possibly five 23 (5) minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 25 minutes?


1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Possibly. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 3 Jones...? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 5 think I'd likely be about half an hour. Part of the 6 problem that I've had, quite frankly, was trying to keep 7 up with him and I could do a couple of things: 8 One (1) is essentially try to make sure 9 that I've gone through this accurately in the record, and 10 the other is to look at the transcript which might 11 actually take less -- less of the Commission's time. 12 So I'm in your hands. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having a 14 little difficulty hearing you, Ms. Jones, but I think I 15 got the essence of it. 16 It's 4:30 now, should we try? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: If I could do my 18 five (5) or less minutes, I'd like to do it today, if 19 that's acceptable. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, is the 21 Witness available tomorrow? 22 MR. DONALD WORME: He has indicated, Mr. 23 Scott has indicated that he is available tomorrow, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, I don't 25 want to rush anybody, but I would like to --


1 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm feeling like I did. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'd 3 like to get the cross-examination done if we can. But 4 it's 4:30, and if we start -- 5 MR. DONALD WORME: I think in light of Ms. 6 Jones' comments, and I think her suggestion is helpful, 7 that she could potentially, and I don't want to misstate 8 her position, but potentially reduce the time that she 9 would require to cross-examine if she had occasion to 10 review the transcript. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're -- yes, 12 Mr. O'Marra, do you have something -- 13 MR. AL O'MARRA: Well, I just wanted to -- 14 I should perhaps reserve five (5) minutes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. DONALD WORME: So certainly for -- for 19 Mr. Rosenthal and -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 21 do what we can. Let's go for a few minutes and see what 22 happens. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: All right, thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 25 Orkin, Mr. Rosenthal?


1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: If I could, Mr. 2 Commissioner, sir, I'm not going to be here tomorrow -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 4 fine. Well, that's reasonable, that's fine. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Good afternoon, sir, my name is Peter 8 Rosenthal, I'm representing some people from Stoney Point 9 called Aazhoodena and George family group, as you'll see 10 from our sign. 11 A: Good afternoon. 12 Q: Just a couple very quick questions. 13 And I do appreciate your testifying so quickly. 14 You told us that you saw about six (6) 15 officers outside the Strathroy Hospital as you arrived 16 with your patient; is that correct? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you saw several police cars as 19 well; is that correct? 20 A: I believe there would have been a 21 couple cruisers off to the south of the Emerg., and 22 there's -- as Mr. Gilpin described, there's a parking lot 23 about 200 feet wide, and it's probably about 400 feet 24 long. So it would have been parked just adjacent to the 25 left.


1 Q: Thank you. Now, you went in with your 2 patient and then you came out and you saw a woman. Now 3 you've told us that earlier you had seen the officers 4 converge on this car that appeared, and -- and then you 5 went in the hospital, and when you came out you saw just 6 the one (1) woman being, apparently, apprehended by the 7 officers; is that correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And the other people that had been in 10 the car, if there were others, were not visible at that 11 point? 12 A: No, I didn't see anybody at any given 13 time, other than a young lady against the wall. 14 Q: And did you conclude that the others 15 must have been removed from the scene by the officers by 16 that time? 17 A: To be honest, I originally thought 18 there was only one (1) driver, because I didn't see 19 anybody else, and I didn't know anybody else was detained 20 for the -- 21 Q: I see. 22 A: -- for the first hour. I -- I'm sure 23 I assumed just she was the driver. 24 Q: But in any event, you didn't see 25 anybody else being apprehended by the police?


1 A: No, not at all. 2 Q: Now, you told us that the interview at 3 Tab 1 of your materials, is a quite accurate interview, in 4 general? 5 A: I would say it's more accurate than 6 the second one (1) with Mr. Moss. 7 Q: Now, I believe, and we can turn to it 8 if necessary, that there you -- you said that the time 9 that you estimated, and of course it's -- it's just an 10 estimate, and it was ten (10) years ago as well, but the 11 time that you estimated from the car -- from seeing the 12 car stopped, this white car with the flat tire, to the 13 time that you tried to remove -- you began to try to 14 remove Dudley George from the car, was three (3) to five 15 (5) minutes? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And you recall saying that, and it's 18 at page 9 of that -- 19 A: I do actually recall reading that, as 20 well. 21 Q: Yes. And -- and do you agree that 22 that was your best estimate at that time, as you gave the 23 interview? 24 A: At that time. 25 Q: And so now that's the time from when


1 you saw the white car stopped, until you began to try to 2 remove Mr. George, and then you told us that you had some 3 difficulty trying to remove him yourself, as you've told 4 us? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Is that correct? 7 A: Mr. George was a large boy. 8 Q: So there would have been some other 9 period of a minute, two (2) minutes, or something, between 10 that time, when you began to attempt, yourself, to remove 11 Mr. George, and the time when you with the assistance of 12 others, was able to get him into the hospital; is that 13 fair? 14 A: I'd say about a minute and a half, two 15 (2) minutes, correct. 16 Q: So, would it be the best estimate that 17 you could make now, that perhaps the total time from the 18 time when you saw the white car pull up, to the time that 19 you and your -- assistant, you were able to get Mr. George 20 into the hospital was approximately five (5) minutes, or a 21 little bit more perhaps? 22 A: No, I'm thinking less. In hindsight 23 now, I'm thinking it's probably between two (2) to three 24 (3) minutes from the fact -- from the time the vehicle 25 pulled in until he was removed from the backseat of the


1 car and being brought into Emerg. 2 Q: So you're now -- you're not agreeing 3 with your estimate at the time of the interview of three 4 (3) to five (5) minutes from the time the car was stopped, 5 until the time you tried to get him in? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: So you've thought about it more in the 8 last year and you're shortening the time, or -- 9 A: I think just maybe more education, 10 what have you, for the fact of, in hindsight when the 11 vehicle pulled in, it probably only took the officers on 12 scene fifteen (15) twenty (20 seconds tops to get everyone 13 out of the vehicle. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And when I first seen the vehicle come 16 in and by the time I came out again, the young lady 17 against the wall so I imagine that was twenty (20) seconds 18 right there being detained against the wall. So I'm 19 thinking that's what shortened my time. 20 Q: But then there were all the attempts 21 back and forth and so on but you still think it was just a 22 couple? 23 A: Yeah. Two (2) to three (3) minutes. 24 Q: Okay, thank you very much. Those are 25 my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.


1 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Orkin...? 3 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, 4 Commissioner. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 7 Q: Good afternoon. 8 A: Good afternoon, sir. 9 Q: My name is Andrew Orkin. I'm co- 10 counsel to the Dudley George Estate and the Sam George 11 group of Dudley George Siblings. 12 I have just a few questions for you. Just 13 to get this straight, you were present in the parking lot 14 at the time that the white car came in because you talked 15 about sparks? 16 A: I was in Emerg actually. 17 Q: In Emerg, okay. And you came out of 18 it -- you came out of Emerg and became aware of the 19 arrival of that car? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And the car rolled in as -- as or 22 shortly after you -- or shortly before you came out of 23 Emerg? 24 A: The car was actually -- again I -- I 25 observed the picture Mr. Gilpin was up here. It looks


1 like there's a curve coming into Emerg -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- but it's actually a straightaway 4 coming into Emerg., a straight path. I was coming out at 5 the same as the car was pulling in. It was coming in at a 6 good pace. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: It wasn't swerving or anything. It 9 was coming in in a straight line. 10 Q: And at the point that you came out and 11 the car came in, there were police officers in that 12 vicinity? 13 A: There would've been. I remember 14 seeing officers on foot converging onto the vehicle as 15 they pulled in. 16 Q: Did it seem to you as the vehicle 17 arrived, and this is an impression I'm asking you for, 18 that the police were there on spec or that this was an 19 event or a vehicle that they were expecting? 20 A: Well, I think from the number of 21 officers there it's something that they were expecting. 22 Q: Can you describe how the police 23 officers were dressed? 24 A: My best recollection it was just 25 normal dress.


1 Q: Just normal dress? 2 A: I do remember seeing some Stetsons. I 3 believe there was a female officer there with a Stetson 4 on, blonde hair. 5 Q: There's been evidence led that there 6 were two (2) other passengers in that vehicle besides the 7 woman that you've mentioned and the -- the passenger in 8 the back, Dudley George. 9 Were you aware at any point of the presence 10 of two (2) other passengers or what might have happened to 11 them? Did you witness -- 12 A: No. Again, when I came out, at this 13 time of night it's quite dark out, even though there was 14 lights in the Emerg parking lot. I didn't see -- again I 15 was under the assumption the young lady against the wall 16 was the driver. 17 Q: Do you remember the process of her 18 getting out of or being taken out of the car? 19 A: I didn't even see the vehicle stop, to 20 be honest. 21 Q: Right. The two (2) to three (3) 22 officers that were engaged with -- with the woman that you 23 described, can you go into a little more detail about that 24 -- the appearance of that encounter? 25 A: Again, when I came back outside,


1 looked to my left, a young lady who was medium weight, 2 thirty-five (35), forty-five (45) long brown hair, against 3 the wall open stance, legs open stance for the search 4 procedure. 5 And hands were up in the air and I remember 6 her arms flailing and hair moving all around. Again, 7 yelling 'my brother, my brother', did it look like she was 8 assaulting the police? No. Did it look like she was 9 trying to get away, yes. 10 Q: And it seemed to you that it sort of 11 characterized what you've just said, she was very agitated 12 and the police officers -- 13 A: I wouldn't say agitated. I'm thinking 14 more frantic than agitated. 15 Q: Frantic? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. And the police officers you 18 indicated were in -- appeared to you to be in a searching 19 mode. They were searching her? 20 A: Well, again, that's the position 21 you're in whenever you're under arrest -- 22 Q: Right. 23 A: -- you're automatically put in that 24 position. 25 Q: Did it surprise you in any way that


1 two (2) or three (3) police officers would be engaged in 2 searching a woman at a moment when there was a man who was 3 severely injured in the back of a car and then you 4 proceeded to try and assist the man in the back of the car 5 but no apparent attention was being paid to that 6 circumstance? 7 A: I was surprised no one was giving me 8 any attention, of course. As far as police procedures at 9 that time, I wasn't privy to any of that. I'm not 10 educated in that at that time. Knowing now, two (2) to 11 three (3) officers searching someone in those 12 circumstances, definitely, it would require two (2) to 13 three (3) officers. 14 Q: I appreciate your answers and your 15 time. Thank you very much. 16 A: Thank you, sir. 17 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 19 Ross...? 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 22 Q: Mr. Scott, my name is Anthony Ross and 23 I represent the Occupants of Aazhoodena which is -- which 24 used to be called the Army Camp. 25 A: Sure.


1 Q: Tell me, sir, the vehicle when it 2 arrived, I take it you did not note who was the actual 3 person behind the wheel? 4 A: Couldn't see anybody. 5 Q: No. 6 A: Couldn't see anybody in the car at all 7 when it was coming in. 8 Q: Okay. So, the evidence that we've got 9 is that Pierre George -- do you know Pierre George? 10 A: From media reports, no. 11 Q: So, you've learned to know who he is? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Brother of. 15 Q: The evidence is that Pierre George was 16 the driver. The evidence is also that Carolyn George, the 17 person who you saw being arrested or being in police -- 18 under police control. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: She was in the front seat. There's 21 further evidence that a young guy, J.T. Cousins, was in 22 the back seat with Dudley. 23 Did you know -- do you now of J.T. Cousins? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: Okay. Now, as far as Dudley's


1 concerned, was his head behind the driver or behind the 2 passenger seat? 3 A: It would have been behind the driver's 4 seat -- 5 Q: I see. 6 A: -- facing north. 7 Q: So, his head would be behind the 8 driver's seat. 9 A: No, facing south. I'm sorry, his head 10 would have been facing south and his feet would have been 11 facing Emerg, which would have been facing north. 12 Q: Yeah. Now, I hate to have to go over 13 what you went through with the last Counsel -- 14 A: It's okay. 15 Q: -- but there's something I need to 16 clarify. 17 My understanding is that you are at Emerg, 18 correct? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: The car is approaching and you can see 21 the sparks, correct? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: The car comes to a stop. Now, my 24 recollection of your direct testimony, and you can correct 25 me, is that you came out and you went back into the


1 hospital? 2 A: I didn't see the car come to a stop, 3 actually. 4 Q: Oh, you didn't see it come to a stop? 5 A: No. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: I'm backing into Emerg. As the 8 vehicle's coming in, I see the sparks flying. At this 9 point, I'm sure the vehicle only had maybe ten (10) -- 10 fifteen (15) more feet to go, but I'm backing into Emerg 11 while this is going on. 12 Q: I see. Now, as the vehicle is 13 approaching, are you conscious of the police presence? 14 A: Yes. Again, I see police officers on 15 either side, converging onto the vehicle. 16 Q: So, as the vehicle is driving in, 17 police converging on both sides, you go back into Emerg, 18 you don't get a chance to see the vehicle come to a stop? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And, how long are you in Emerg before 21 coming back out? 22 A: Again, based on the amount of time, 23 knowing now how long it would take to clear a car and to 24 have someone against the wall, it would be approximately 25 twenty (20) seconds, twenty (20) to thirty (30) seconds


1 tops. 2 Q: Okay. So, within that twenty (20) 3 seconds, the car must now come to a stop and three (3) 4 people are out of the car, two (2) are removed from the 5 area so that when you come back you don't see them -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- and the police dealing with the 8 other one? 9 A: Yes, it's very possible. 10 Q: Yeah. And you go and you identify 11 somebody in the back seat of the car? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, did you see the police check that 14 vehicle? 15 A: Not to my recollection, no. 16 Q: I see. And, you were attempting to 17 get who we later understand is Dudley George out of the 18 car and you were -- you were unsuccessful? 19 A: Eventually, yes. 20 Q: Did you bring a -- a stretcher out to 21 the car? 22 A: Not when I first came in. 23 Q: I see. 24 A: Not when I first came out, because I 25 didn't know -- I didn't even know there was a car


1 arriving, to be honest. 2 Q: Fine, I'm talking about after. The 3 car has now stopped, you've now come back out of Emerg. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: The police are there; they've got who 6 you now know is Carolyn George, right? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Then you go over the vehicle and 9 there's somebody in the back. Did you try to take that 10 person out before having the stretcher, or did you go 11 back -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- and get a stretcher? 14 A: Went back and got a stretcher. 15 Q: You went back and got a stretcher and 16 came back to the car? 17 A: It's about ten (10) feet away. 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Ten (10) to twenty (20) feet away, my 20 stretcher. 21 Q: Went back and you brought a stretcher? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, at that time you tried to get 24 Dudley out, but couldn't do it on your own? 25 A: No, there was still another moment


1 where when the vehicle first pulled in, I look inside the 2 vehicle, scan the vehicle, wait for someone to tell me 3 what to do; what not to do. 4 Q: Hmm Hmm. 5 A: I don't enter the vehicle at that 6 time. I then open the back door, look inside; no one 7 tells me what to do. Again, I -- this is all in a matter 8 at the same time; I lean back out and wait for somebody to 9 tell me, Get away from the vehicle. 10 The third time I go in, I actually go 11 inside the vehicle and do ABC's, airway, breathing, 12 circulation and a carotid check. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: At that point, verify if this person 15 is vital signs absent. At this point I go back and I 16 stand up again, everyone must see me now, I've actually 17 gone into the vehicle, now I'm standing up, someone must 18 see me now. No one said anything. 19 At this point, then, I believe I'm going 20 back in to get my stretcher, which is probably from here 21 to the camera away. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. And when you get your 23 stretcher, you come back to the vehicle? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And you, again, tried to remove Dudley


1 George by yourself and was unsuccessful? 2 A: Yes. Yeah. 3 Q: And then is when you ask for help from 4 your partner? 5 A: I asked from whoever was available, 6 whoever was in earshot. 7 Q: But it was your partner who assisted 8 you? 9 A: It was my partner and, by the sounds 10 of it, there was others who helped as well. 11 Q: I see. And got him on the stretcher. 12 As far as the officers are concerned, were any police 13 officers among the others who helped put Dudley George on 14 the stretcher? 15 A: I can't recall seeing any. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: Again, I can't recall what paramedic 18 was helping me. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: Again, there was a -- a lot of 21 uniforms walking around, a lot of professional people 22 walking around. There may even have been a nurse there, I 23 can't recall. 24 Q: But do you recall whether or not any 25 uniforms assisted in getting Dudley George onto the


1 stretcher? 2 A: Under than my partner, Mark Weiss is 3 the only person I can recall. 4 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 5 questions, Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 7 Mr. Ross. Ms. Tuck-Jackson, are you next? Would you 8 prefer to wait? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: There's a wire 13 under that rug, it gets me every time, sir. Mr. 14 Commissioner, I have to indicate, sir, that I would prefer 15 the benefit of the evening before I begin the cross- 16 examination; there's something I need to verify. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 18 would be a good time to adjourn for the day. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's... 21 MR. DONALD WORME: To 9:00 a.m.? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 23 So we adjourn from now to tomorrow morning at 9:00. And 24 you're available tomorrow morning at nine o'clock? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. Another five (5)


1 minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 So we'll adjourn from now until tomorrow morning at nine 4 o'clock. Thank you very much. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 6 7 (WITNESS RETIRES) 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 10 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, April 28th, at 9:00 11 a.m. 12 13 --- Upon adjourning at 4:47 p.m. 14 15 16 17 Certified Correct, 18 19 20 21 ________________ 22 Dustin Warnock 23 24 25