11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 25th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 WAYDE ELLARD JACKLIN, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 13 7 8 9 10 Certificate of Transcript 333 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1383 Document Number 2005561. Curriculum 4 Vitae of W. E. (Wayde) Jacklin. 14 5 P-1384 Document Number 2005589. Handwritten 6 notebook entries of Wayde Jacklin, 7 July 17, 1993 and August 24, 1993. 30 8 P-1385 Document Number 2005579. Handwritten 9 notebook entries of Wayde Jacklin, 10 May 28, 1994. 41 11 P-1386 Document Number 2005589. Handwritten 12 notebook entries of Wayde Jacklin, 13 February 27, 1995. 44 14 P-1387 Document Number 2005593. Handwritten 15 notebook entries of Wayde Jacklin, 16 July 29-October 10, 1995. 47 17 P-1388 Document Number 2003608. Interview 18 Report of P/C W. Jacklin, July 29 19 - August 02, 1995. 57 20 P-1389 Document Number 2000828. Handwritten 21 ERT Operational Report, Root/Jacklin, 22 August 21, 1995. 68 23 P-1390 Document number 2000806. Handwritten 24 ERT Operational Report, Root/Jacklin, 25 August 22, 1995. 68
91 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1391 Document Number 2001173. Photographic 4 List of OPP cruiser damage; Close-up 5 photos (2) of OPP cruiser damage and 6 estimate for repair of OPP cruiser. 91 7 P-1392 Document Number 2004336. General 8 Occurrence Report 16548 -3, 9 September 04, 1995. 100 10 P-1393 Document Number 2003606. OPP statement 11 of Wayde Jacklin and handwritten version 12 (re. September 04, 1995). 102 13 P-1394 Jacklin audio. 131 14 P-1395 Transcript of Region 01, Wayde Jacklin - 15 John Slack - Peter Japp, Unknown Male, 16 September 05, 1995, 19:55 hrs, Mobile 17 Command Unit, Logger tape number 2, 18 Track 1, Disc 1 of 3. 132 19 P-1396 Transcript of Region 04, Wayde Jacklin - 20 H.H. Graham (Norm McLeod) September 05, 21 1995, 20:04 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, 22 OPP logger tape number 2, Track 3, 23 Disc 1 of 3. 138 24 25
101 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1397 Transcript of Region 02, Wayde Jacklin - 4 John Slack, September 05, 1995, 20:15 5 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, OPP Logger 6 tape number 2, Track 1, Disc 1 of 3. 143 7 P-1398 Transcript of Region 05, Wayde Jacklin 8 - H. H. Graham (Norm McLeod and Randy 9 Burch) September 05, 1995, 22:16 hrs, 10 Mobile Command Unite, OPP Logger tape 11 number 2, Track 3, Disc 1 of 3. 148 12 P-1399 Transcript of Region 10, Wayde Jacklin 13 - John Slack, September 05, 1995, 22:44 14 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, OPP Logger 15 tape number 2, Track 3, Disc 1 of 3. 154 16 P-1400 Document Number 2005327. Affidavit of 17 Wayde Jacklin, August 04, 1998. 171 18 P-1401 Transcript of September 06, 1995, 20:36 19 hrs, track number 2036. 187 20 P-1402 Transcript of September 06, 1995, 20:40 21 hrs, track number 2040. 190 22 P-1403 Transcript of September 06, 1995, 20:47 23 hrs, track number 2047. 194 24 P-1404 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 20:48. 25 hrs. track number 20:48 195
111 Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1405 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 4 20:49 hrs. track number 2049. 197 5 P-1406 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 6 21:06 hrs. track number 2106. 203 7 P-1407 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 8 21:07 hrs. track number 2107. 205 9 P-1408 Transcript of September 06, 1995, 10 21:09 hrs, track number 2109. 207 11 P-1409 Transcript of September 06, 1995, 12 21:35 hrs. track number 2135. 209 13 P-1410 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 14 21:49 hrs, track number 2149. 215 15 P-1411 Transcript of September 06, 1995, 16 21:52 hrs, track number 2152. 217 17 P-1412 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 18 21:54 hrs, track number 2154. 220 19 P-1413 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 20 21:59 hrs, track number 2159. 224 21 P-1414 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 22 22:01 hrs. track number 2201. 225 23 P-1415 Document Number 2003607. OPP interview 24 of Wayde Jacklin and handwritten interview 25 statement, September 07, 1995. 259
121 Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1416 Document Number 1005909. CMU, 4 Position Chart created by the SIU. 5 (undated) 306 6 P-1417 Transcript of Region 07, Wayde 7 Jacklin - Lima 1, September 07, 8 1995, 04:04 hrs, Chatham Communications 9 Centre, Logger tape number 147, Track 10 12, disc 12 of 20. 312 11 P-1418 Transcript of Region 08, Wayde Jacklin 12 - Lima 1, September 07, 1995, 04:42 hrs, 13 Chatham Communications Centre, Logger 14 tape number 147, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20 314 15 P-1419 Document Number 1004978. Examination-in 16 -chief and cross -examination of Wayde 17 Jacklin, R. v. Cecil Bernard George, 18 July 17, 1996. 321 19 P-1420 Document number 1004976. Examination-in 20 -chief and cross- examination of Wayde 21 Jacklin, R. v. Warren Anthony George, 22 October 03, 1997 322 23 24 25
131 --- Upon commencing at 9:09 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission calls as 11 its next witness, Sergeant Wayde Jacklin. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. 13 Jacklin. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Would you take the Bible 16 in your right hand please. And could you state -- state 17 your name in full please. 18 THE WITNESS: Wayde Ellard Jacklin. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 20 21 WAYDE ELLARD JACKLIN, Sworn 22 23 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Good morning, Sergeant. 25 A: Good morning.
141 Q: I want to thank you for juggling your 2 schedule to accommodate our -- our witness situation this 3 morning. 4 I understand that you are currently a 5 Sergeant with the K-9 Unit? 6 A: Actually a Staff Sergeant. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 A: With the K-9 Program, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And if you go to Tab 1 of your 10 brief of documents. This is Inquiry Document Number 11 2005561. It's a copy of a curriculum vitae and does this 12 document accurately set out your -- your various 13 positions and qualifications and courses you've attended? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes, it does. 18 Q: I'd like to have this document 19 entered as the next exhibit please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1383, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1383: Document Number 2005561. 23 Curriculum Vitae of W. E. 24 (Wayde) Jacklin. 25
151 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: I understood you joined the Ontario 3 Provincial Police in 1984 and was stationed at the Sombra 4 Detachment where you conducted general law enforcement 5 duties? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: In 1994 you became a member of the 8 Number 1 District Emergency Response Team which I will 9 refer to as the ERT, is that right? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And what was entailed in becoming a 12 member of ERT? 13 A: You had to be a highly motivated 14 officer, physically fit, able to be called out at all 15 hours, be -- be very flexible, be a -- I would like to 16 say an above average officer. 17 Q: Was there any qualification or 18 selection process? 19 A: Yes, there was. 20 Q: Can you describe that for us please 21 as it applied to you? 22 A: Yes, when I put my name in, there was 23 a background check that was done. I had to have an 24 interview, pass a physical test. 25 Q: And was there any psychological
161 testing component? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: And once you were selected to -- 4 well, let me ask you this, who was -- who -- who was in 5 charge or who selected you to the District Number 1 ERT 6 team? 7 A: At that time it would have been 8 Sergeant Korosec. 9 Q: Once you became a member of the 10 Emergency Response Team was there -- was there a training 11 component? 12 A: Yes, there was. 13 Q: And would you describe that please? 14 A: In October of '94, I attended a six 15 (6) week Emergency Response Team training course at CFB 16 Meaford. That course consisted of one (1) week of crowd 17 management training, two (2) weeks of search and rescue 18 training, two (2) weeks of containment training, a day -- 19 two (2), sorry two (2) days of K-9 backup training and 20 some other associated training, VIP security. 21 Q: And did you successfully complete 22 that program? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: Are there any or were there any 25 ongoing training or upgrading components to your program
171 as an ERT member? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Can you describe those? 4 A: We had to do a twelve (12) day -- 5 twelve (12) days of training yearly to maintain those 6 skills. As well we did some other training within the 7 team. 8 Q: Now, amongst the training programs 9 that you attended did that include field scenarios, if 10 you will, or role -- role playing? 11 A: That's correct, we did. 12 Q: All right. And specifically can you 13 recall prior to 1995 whether there was any particular 14 component that addressed the situation of -- of 15 occupations? 16 A: I don't believe there was. 17 Q: Can you tell us in a -- in a general 18 way what the main role or function of the ERT was in 19 1995? 20 A: Our main function was K-9 backup. It 21 was -- contributed to most of the work that we did. 22 Q: All right. And can you just expand 23 briefly on what you mean by K-9 backup? 24 A: It was recognized that dog handlers 25 while they're working their dogs have limited visibility
181 or perception of what's going on around them due to 2 they're watching and working with their dog. So it was 3 imperative in a high stress situation or in tactical 4 situations that there be trained members to cover that 5 handler so he could safely do his job. 6 Q: All right. Were there any subsidiary 7 roles of the ERT in 1995? 8 A: Yes, there was. 9 Q: And what were they? 10 A: Containment was a big portion of our 11 work. 12 Q: All right. And can you expand on 13 that? 14 A: Yes. If for an example a -- a 15 domestic -- if somebody's life was in danger and an area 16 had to be sealed off, controlled to -- to ensure a safe 17 outcome, our role as ERT members we would often be the 18 first responders responding after uniformed members had 19 attended. 20 We would set up the inner perimeter to 21 ensure that safe movements and/or limited movement inside 22 the area was done. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And then normally if -- if the person 25 was contacted and the situation resolved itself
191 peacefully then our job was finished. If it was a 2 prolonged containment then the TRU team would be 3 activated and then when they attended they would take 4 over the role of the inner perimeter. The ERT team would 5 then move to the outer perimeter. 6 Q: And were there any others subsidiary 7 roles performed by ERT in addition to containment? 8 A: Yes. VIP security. 9 Q: Yes. Perhaps you can just list the 10 rest of them. 11 A: Sure. Search and Rescue, missing 12 people, lost hunters that sort of thing. We'd go out -- 13 and again often with a K-9 team but we would do ground 14 searches for missing people or for evidence. 15 Q: Okay. Now what -- what geographic 16 area was covered by the Number 1 District ERT? 17 A: At that time it would have been Kent 18 County, Essex County and Lambton County. 19 Q: All right. And as such that included 20 the area in and around the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: How long had the ERT Number 1 23 District been in existence? 24 A: Since -- sorry. We began our 25 training in October of 1994, officially.
201 Q: So it was a relatively new unit in 2 1995? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And what was your specific role, if 5 you will, in 1995 on ERT? 6 A: I was a Provincial Constable, a 7 generalist so to speak. I was just an active member on 8 the team. 9 Q: Who had the authority to deploy the 10 ERT team? 11 A: Normally it would come through the -- 12 an Incident Commander. 13 Q: Incident Commander? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And under what circumstances would 16 ERT be deployed? 17 A: As I mentioned all the duties that we 18 performed. 19 Q: Yes. All right. So when those 20 situations presented themselves within your district, the 21 Incident Commander had the authority to call you out? 22 A: Yes. And maybe just to clarify it, 23 an Incident Command wouldn't be utilized for everything 24 we did. 25 Q: All right. And in those cases where
211 there was no Incident Commander, who would call you out? 2 A: Normally the -- the team leader. The 3 Sergeant in charge of the team. 4 Q: Who was the Sergeant in charge of the 5 ERT team in '95? Your -- 6 A: Ser -- 7 Q: -- your team obviously. 8 A: Sergeant Korosec, Stan Korosec. 9 Q: Thank you. Now we've also -- we've 10 heard some evidence about a Crowd Management Unit and its 11 existence in 1995. Can you just help us understand how 12 the ERT and CMU units interrelate or how they 13 interrelated at that time? 14 A: The CMU Unit was made up of ERT team 15 members. So generally if there was a CMU unit it 16 normally consisted of two (2) district ERT teams. 17 Q: All right. And how many persons -- 18 or what's the complement of an ERT team? 19 A: A fully staffed ERT team, sixteen 20 (16) members. 21 Q: And did you have any specific 22 firearms training as an ERT member? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And can you briefly advise what that 25 entailed up to and including 1995?
221 A: Yes. I have extensive background on 2 -- on the firearms but on ERT, the long gun that we were 3 trained for or with is a Ruger Mini 14 which is a 223 4 calibre long gun. 5 Also we carried our issued firearm. At 6 that time it was a Sigs Sauer P229, 40 calibre. 7 Q: Are these automatic or semi- 8 automatic? 9 A: They're semi automatic, both of them 10 are. 11 Q: All right. And were you specifically 12 trained with respect to any other particular weapons 13 aside from firearms? 14 A: Also in the firearm I was trained on 15 a Remington 870 shotgun as well. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: As far as other weapons that we would 18 carry? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: We had other use of force options if 21 that's what you're referring to. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: We had a baton, twenty-six (26) inch 24 baton, pepper spray, OC spray. 25 Q: Is that the full complement?
231 A: At that time I believe so. 2 Q: All right. And is there -- was your 3 position on ERT, a full-time responsibility or did you 4 continue to have other policing responsibilities? 5 A: I had other policing 6 responsibilities. ERT was just a speciality that I did 7 on top of my general police work. 8 Q: All right. And just to return to -- 9 to your professional background for a moment you've 10 indicated in 1995 during the Ipperwash Incident you were 11 a Provincial Constable. I understand that you were 12 stationed at Petrolia at that time? 13 A: That is correct. 14 Q: And just by way of background in 1977 15 you -- you joined the Canadian Military in -- and in 1980 16 were stationed in Cypress for six (6) months? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Now, prior to 1995 did you have any 19 specific training relating to policing Aboriginal 20 communities? 21 A: Formal training? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you have any experience prior to 25 1995 in policing First Nations communities?
241 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: Could you please briefly describe 3 that experience? 4 A: In 1984 when I became a member of the 5 OPP I was posted to Sombra. Sombra is about a twenty 6 (20) minute drive from Walpole Island Reserve. My 7 responsibilities as a police officer in Sombra is -- was 8 to do calls for service on Walpole Island. 9 And I worked in Lambton County as a 10 constable for sixteen (16) years. I went into K-9 in 11 1996 and even at that time my area expanded within 1 12 District and other districts and I would often be on 13 reserves other than Walpole Island. 14 Q: Okay. And I understand that you grew 15 up in Sarnia? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And did you have any knowledge of the 18 history and background surrounding the CFB Camp 19 Ipperwash? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: What was the extent of your awareness 22 prior to 1995? 23 A: I knew that the Base, the Military 24 Base, my knowledge was limited to that piece of land, 25 that it was expropriated from First Nations people prior
251 to the war or during the war, to be used as a training 2 base to train soldiers in the Second World War, and that 3 once there was no longer a need for that property it was 4 to be returned to the people. 5 Q: Were you aware of any of the general 6 demonstrations or efforts of the First Nations people to 7 get that property back prior to 1993? 8 A: Yes, I was. 9 Q: I just want to turn for a moment to 10 your CV, Tab 1, Exhibit P-1383, and page 3 of that, the 11 police courses. I note -- and perhaps actually we could 12 do this in reverse. Go to page 5; we'll -- we'll go back 13 in history. 14 Item 16 you were -- you attended the TRU 15 selection course in 1987; is that right? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And -- and I understand that there 18 are three (3) phases to the TRU program, is that...? 19 A: Yes, there is. 20 Q: Okay. And so I take it at one time 21 you considered becoming a member of TRU? 22 A: I did. 23 Q: And if we go on page 4 you attended 24 the TRU Level 1 Course and did you complete that? 25 A: Yes, I did.
261 Q: And that was in 1988. Did you pursue 2 the -- the TRU qualification process any further? 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: All right. And is there -- is there 5 a particular reason for that? 6 A: It was personal reasons. 7 Q: All right. I see at Item 10 that in 8 the fall of 1993 you took a firearms instructor's course? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And did you successfully complete 11 that? 12 A: I did. 13 Q: And in 1994, the fall of '94, you, as 14 you advised us engaged in Emergency Response Team 15 training? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And going to page 3 now in 2003 you 18 completed a leader course. Can you just tell us what 19 that was about? 20 A: Yes, that was a -- a course I 21 attended at the Provincial Police Academy in Orillia and 22 'leader' actually was an acronym that stood for -- if I 23 can recall exactly what it stood for was Leadership, 24 Excellence -- oh, I can't remember exactly what it stood 25 for but it -- but it was --
271 Q: All right. 2 A: -- a leadership course for middle 3 management, so normally for Sergeants to Inspectors. 4 Q: Okay. And you concluded that course? 5 A: That is correct. 6 Q: And I see that in March of 2004, you 7 took an Incident Command course Level 1. Did you 8 complete that? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And in January of 2006, you attended 11 at a Native Awareness course. Did you complete that? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: Now, with respect to the Native 14 Awareness course, had you attended at any other similar 15 courses prior to 2006? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Was the attendance to this course 18 mandatory or voluntary? 19 A: I volunteered for the course. 20 Q: Okay. And can you just tell us very, 21 very briefly what the purpose of the Native Awareness 22 course was? 23 A: It was to give officers a better 24 understanding, actually, there was some civilians in 25 there, too, but officers a better understanding of
281 traditions and history of First Nations people. 2 Q: Okay. And did you find that helpful 3 in terms of your understanding and ability to assist with 4 respect to First Nation policing matters? 5 A: Yes. I would consider it one of the 6 best courses I was ever on in this organization. 7 Q: All right. Now, moving to Ipperwash, 8 then. When was your first active involvement as a police 9 offer -- officer with respect to any matters relating to 10 Ipperwash? 11 A: 1993. 12 Q: And can you tell us just briefly, 13 first of all, what the circumstances of that involvement 14 was? 15 A: Yes. Are we referring to a specific 16 tab here? 17 Q: Certainly. Perhaps you'd go to Tab 18 2, Inquiry Document Number 2005589 and this appears to be 19 excerpts from notes dated 1993. 20 I'm wondering -- first of all, and if you 21 look at -- and I believe it's August 23 and 24 of 1993. 22 Can you identify those notes for us? 23 A: The Tab I'm looking at, I believe, is 24 the 17th of July '03 on two (2), is the first page I 25 have --
291 Q: Oh, you're quite right. The first 2 page, it's not a very good photocopy, it's July and the 3 second page is August 24th, 1993, I believe. 4 A: Yes. I have both of those. 5 Q: All right. Can you identify that for 6 us, please? 7 A: Yes, those are my notes. 8 Q: And would you just tell us in a 9 general way what your general note taking practices were. 10 A: The notes that I took at that time 11 were to refresh my memory so in the -- so I'd have some 12 recollection of what took place at certain dates and 13 times. 14 Q: Now, as a matter of practice did you 15 take these notes at or shortly after the events which are 16 reflected within them? 17 A: As soon as practical, yes. 18 Q: As soon as practical meaning? 19 A: When the opportunity exists. 20 Q: And were you under an obligation to - 21 - to take these notes? 22 A: Yes, as a police officer you are 23 obligated to take notes. 24 Q: And you took these notes in pursuant 25 of that obligation?
301 A: That's correct. 2 Q: All right. I'd like to make these 3 notes the next exhibit, please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1384, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1384: Document Number 2005589. 7 Handwritten notebook entries 8 of Wayde Jacklin, July 17, 9 1993 and August 24, 1993. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: And looking at your notes dated July 13 17, 1993, does this refresh your memory at all with 14 respect to your involvement in the Ipperwash matter? 15 A: It does. 16 Q: Can you advise us, please. 17 Q: Yes. On the 17th of July, 1993, at 18 approximately 13:45 hours, I was advised to attend County 19 Road 3 by camp Ipperwash under the authority of Inspector 20 Carson. 21 Q: For what purpose? 22 A: At that time, I had limited 23 knowledge, but my understanding was that a road block or 24 checkpoint had been set up by First Nations people and 25 they were asking for money for people travelling on that
311 road. 2 Q: Like a toll? 3 A: Like a toll, yes. 4 Q: All right. And were you activated as 5 a member of ERT? 6 A: I was not on -- on ERT at that time. 7 Q: All right, okay. It didn't exist, 8 did it? 9 A: It did not. 10 Q: Okay, thank you. And did you, in 11 fact, attend and play any role in this toll station or 12 block -- road block? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And what was the extent of your 15 involvement? 16 A: The vehicle that I drove in Sombra, 17 was equipped with a mobile video camera, so I was asked 18 to attend that location to be able to video tape what was 19 taking place at the -- at that intersection. 20 Q: All right. And was that the extent 21 of your involvement with respect to that incident? 22 A: I also took a statement off a person 23 that was involved. 24 Q: Anything else? 25 A: No, that was it.
321 Q: And what was your next policing 2 involvement with respect to any matter relating to 3 Ipperwash? 4 A: On Tuesday the 24th of August 1993, I 5 was called at my residence at approximately 5:34 a.m., 6 was directed to attend the Forest OPP Detachment, which I 7 did. Attending there at approximately 7:05. 8 There I received a briefing and as a 9 result I attended Army Camp and acted as a cover officer 10 for officers doing or executing a warrant on the Army 11 Camp. 12 Q: Were you -- first of all, who -- did 13 you receive a briefing as to what the search was -- was 14 for? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And from whom? 17 A: I don't recall. 18 Q: All right. And what was your 19 understanding of the events or -- that precipitated the 20 search? 21 A: My understanding was that a Canadian 22 Forces helicopter had been fired upon from the Base and 23 we were to do a search warrant and look for any evidence 24 of that offence. 25 Q: And did you attend at the Military
331 Base to provide for cover for the officers conducting the 2 search? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And I take it that you didn't 5 physically participate in the search yourself? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Did you see the search warrant that 8 gave authority for this? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: All right. And was there any 11 peculiarities or -- with respect to the circumstances in 12 your mind which led to the search, or which governed the 13 search? 14 A: Yes. When -- when we were at the 15 Forest Detachment, what I found strange was that, I 16 believe the -- the Chief of Kettle Point Reserve, Tom 17 Bressette, that they knew we were going to be executing 18 the search warrant on that property well in advance of us 19 in fact attending the property. 20 Generally, when you execute a search 21 warrant, there has to be some element of surprise. So I 22 did find that a little strange. 23 Q: All right. And were there any other 24 limitations that -- that attached to the search in your 25 perspective?
341 A: The -- the search really consisted of 2 a very small area of the Base. And the parameters if I 3 could lay them out would be from -- from my recollection, 4 is where Cliff George was residing in that area which 5 would have been the left hand side of the -- the range 6 non-occupational part of the Base where I'm talking about 7 buildings. 8 On the right hand perimeter my 9 recollection is that Bert Manning was living in behind 10 the pond and that would have been what I would describe 11 as the right hand boundary as you look at the Base. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: We went as far back as there was a 14 six hundred (600) metre range. We went that deep into 15 the Base. And we did some peripheral checking in around 16 the bush line off the range road that runs parallel to 17 that range. 18 Q: Okay. So as I understand it, 19 basically the search perimeters were -- it excluded the - 20 - the barrack area and excluded the area of the Army Base 21 beyond the basic, if you will, living areas of Clifford 22 George and Bert Manning. I assume that they're 23 neighbours in that vicinity? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And approximately how many hundred
351 square feet then -- if you -- can you give me an estimate 2 of -- of the footage or metres? 3 A: The frontage I believe is about 2 1/2 4 kilometres -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- from Bert Manning's residence 7 where I described to in the area where the left boundary 8 would be. From the highway back would be another 800/900 9 metres. 10 Q: Okay. And why did you find that to 11 be -- those parameters to be a possible limitation to the 12 search? 13 A: It's a huge area to search and we're 14 looking for evidence of a helicopter being shot at so 15 whether it would be a firearm or empty casings from a 16 fired firearm that is a huge area to search. 17 Q: All right. And approximately how 18 long were you deployed on this -- on this cover 19 assignment? 20 A: My recollection we attended in the 21 early afternoon and we went into the late afternoon, I 22 believe. 23 Q: All right. During the course of your 24 assignment did you observe any -- any altercations as 25 between police officers and the First Nations occupants?
361 A: The only interaction that I observed 2 was from First Nations people that were on the outside of 3 the boundary fence. There had been a large number of 4 people gathered there -- 5 Q: All right. 6 A: -- and there were some verbal 7 accusations being made towards us. 8 Q: All right. Was there any response by 9 the police to these accusations? 10 A: No, there was not. 11 Q: And what was the outcome of the 12 search if you -- if you know? 13 A: I wasn't aware of any positive 14 outcome of that search. 15 Q: Meaning nothing was found of -- 16 A: In relation to the warrant. 17 Q: In relation to the warrant. All 18 right. Did you witness any taking away of -- of property 19 or dislodgement of property by -- or damage to property 20 by the police officers conducting the search? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: All right. And did you have any 23 further involvement in the the -- into the investigation 24 of this alleged helicopter shooting? 25 A: No, I did not.
371 Q: All right. And what was your next 2 involvement? If you wish you might refer to Tab 3, 3 Inquiry Document Number 2005579. This appears to be an 4 excerpt from your notes dated May 28, 1994. 5 A: That's correct. On the Saturday, May 6 28th, 1994, I accompanied three (3) other officers, OPP 7 officers, and I spent the day on Ipperwash beach. 8 Q: What was the purpose of this -- this 9 assignment? 10 A: It was just for general observation 11 in -- in that area. 12 Q: Were you provided with any briefing 13 or understanding as to what precipitated this -- this 14 assignment? 15 A: Yes, I did receive a bit of a 16 briefing. I don't recall from who but I believe it was 17 Sergeant Wright. There had been some increased activity 18 on the beach. There had been some threats of violence 19 towards people on the beach from First Nations people and 20 we were assigned to spend the day on the beach just to 21 ensure public safety. 22 Q: And what -- did -- did you physically 23 patrol the beach? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Can you tell us how you -- how
381 you conducted this detail? 2 A: Actually I had a bathing suit on and 3 a T-shirt and sat on the beach with three (3) other 4 officers. 5 Q: All right. So this was in the nature 6 of an undercover assignment? 7 A: If you want to call it that, yes. 8 Q: And that's the extent of my humour I 9 would say. 10 All right. And was this the -- which part 11 of -- was this the -- the Park beach that you were 12 sitting on? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Which beach was it? 15 A: It was the beach in front of the Army 16 Camp. 17 Q: In front of the Army Camp. And what 18 was your -- I take it you understood that that was 19 Federally controlled land? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: What was your understanding with 22 respect to the extent of your jurisdiction as a police 23 officer on Army Camp property at this time? 24 A: Well, at that time I was a police 25 officer sworn in for the Province of Ontario and I
391 considered the Base a piece of that property. So I was a 2 sworn officer, just upholding the law on a piece of land 3 in Ontario. 4 Q: And did have any understanding with 5 respect to any protocol or understanding if you will, as 6 between the Military and the OPP in relation to the 7 policing of the Military Base during this timeframe of 8 1994? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: What was your understanding? 11 A: Generally, the Military Police would 12 enforce certain rules and regulations on the Base. In 13 some circumstances, the OPP could be involved, depending 14 on the severity of the criminal allegation. 15 Q: And to your knowledge, did the 16 military know that you were going to be conducting this 17 detail? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: And what, if any, observations of 20 note did you make during the course of this detail? 21 A: I remember it wasn't very warm, but 22 there was -- 23 Q: Of significance. 24 A: -- it was -- of significance? It was 25 very quiet, an uneventful day.
401 Q: All right. So there were no 2 incidents or occurrences that you recorded. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And how long were you on this detail? 5 A: The afternoon, I believe. 6 Q: Did you report back the results of 7 your surveillance to -- to anyone? 8 A: I did not create an occurrence 9 report. 10 Q: All right. But did you relay back 11 the activity to Sergeant Wright or someone else? 12 A: I did not personally. 13 Q: Okay. Do you have any sense, then, 14 of how then the knowledge you acquired would be conveyed 15 or would have been conveyed? 16 A: I believe it was through one of the 17 other officers. 18 Q: Okay. How many other officers were 19 there? 20 A: There was three (3). 21 Q: Do you recall their names? 22 A: Yes. Mark Dew, Marg Eve and Lisa 23 Desjardin. 24 Q: Thank you. I'd like to make the 25 notebook entry of May 28th, 1994 the next exhibit,
411 please. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1385, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1385: Document Number 2005579. 5 Handwritten notebook entries 6 of Wayde Jacklin, May 28, 7 1994. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: And I'd like to take you to a 11 different incident. It's at Tab 4, Inquiry Document 12 Number 2005589; this appears to be an excerpt from your 13 police notes for Sun -- for Sunday, February 27, 1995, 14 although it looks like the first entry is at 00:10 hours 15 and I guess would that have been then February 28th? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: Okay. And were you -- can you tell 21 us what the circumstances of this call out was? 22 A: Yes. By that time I was a member of 23 the emergency response team. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: So this was a containment call and it
421 was on Kettle Point. 2 Q: All right. And what was your 3 specific role there? 4 A: An ERT team member. So when I 5 attended, I attended the Forest Detachment and as a 6 result of information I received, I attended Kettle Point 7 reserve. There had been a Command Post set up at the old 8 school and I do remember attending the CP or the Command 9 Post. 10 And I was assigned to attend with officer 11 Mark Gransden and our checkpoint was at County Road and 12 Indian Road on Kettle Point. 13 This would be described as the outer 14 perimeter location we were assigned to. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: We were assigned to that location. 17 We also had a spike belt with us. 18 Q: And that, I assume, was to prevent 19 vehicles from running the checkpoint? 20 A: Not so much -- coming out of the 21 inner perimeter, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Carry on. 23 A: So I attended that specific 24 intersection of those two (2) roads, the County Road and 25 Indian Road and meanwhile the containment situation was
431 unfolding. 2 And while we were at that location, what a 3 -- a Flashbang was deployed by the TRU team. 4 Q: What's a Flashbang? 5 A: It's just a noise device. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It just makes a loud noise. It's 8 used -- 9 Q: So that -- I'm sorry. It's used for 10 what? 11 A: Sometimes it's used to get attention 12 of somebody. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Shortly after that, several people 15 came out of a townhouse complex that was located near 16 where we were. Two (2) males came over to our location 17 and one (1) of the males just continued walking by, made 18 -- they made several comments to us. 19 One (1) of the people went up to Officer 20 Gransden and started yelling at him and telling -- 21 telling him to get off the reserve or off the property. 22 Things that -- this person was, in my opinion, was 23 intoxicated. We had a -- a job to do there and this 24 person was interfering with us doing that job safely and 25 making sure that this situation resolved itself.
441 I had asked for backup officers to attend, 2 uniformed members or backup officers and somebody did 3 attend and these people were directed to leave, which, in 4 time, they did. 5 Q: All right. And was that the extent 6 of your involvement at this -- this incident? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. I'd like to -- to make 9 this -- the notes of February 27, 1995, the next exhibit 10 please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1386, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1386: Document Number 2005589. 14 Handwritten notebook entries 15 of Wayde Jacklin , February 16 27, 1995. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: All right. Can you tell us when next 20 you are activated with respect to Ipperwash? If you like 21 you can refer to Tab 6 of the brief, Inquiry Document 22 2005593. 23 A: Yes, on Saturday the 29th of July, 24 1995, as a member of the ERT team I was asked to assemble 25 the ERT team.
451 Q: By whom? 2 A: I -- I don't recall. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: I attended the Petrolia Detachment as 5 a result and started to make these arrangements. I was 6 instructed to have these members attend Forest or I did 7 attend Forest with Officer Dellemonache and I remained in 8 Forest for most of the afternoon and then we were stood 9 down at approximately 8:00 p.m. 10 A: Now, what was your understanding or 11 what were you told was the cause for calling out the ERT 12 Number 1 District Team on that occasion? 13 A: My recollection is there was an 14 incident on the Army Camp where people had came into the 15 -- in -- started to occupy the actual Base portion of the 16 Base. 17 Q: So the barracks or the built-up area? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: All right. And were you provided 20 with any further information about the -- the nature of 21 that occupation or how it had come to be? 22 A: I do recall a -- a bus was used in 23 the -- during the occupation. Outside that I don't 24 recall. 25 Q: And did you attend at the Army Camp
461 on the 29th? 2 A: I did not. 3 Q: Were you in fact deployed to -- to 4 undertake any particular policing task during that day 5 aside from assembling your team? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And I should just note that we are 8 now looking at your notes from July 29th, 1995, to 9 October the 10th, 1995, is that right? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And again, these are excerpts insofar 12 as relevant to Ipperwash? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And did you take these notes at or -- 15 as soon as practicable after the events that are 16 reflected in them? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And -- and under any circumstances 19 were -- were those typically within twenty-four (24) 20 hours of the occurrences? 21 A: Yes, I believe so. 22 Q: All right. I'd like to make this 23 entire document, Inquiry Document 2005593, the notes July 24 29th to October 10 the next exhibit please? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1387, Your Honour.
471 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1387: Document Number 2005593. 2 Handwritten notebook entries 3 of Wayde Jacklin, July 29- 4 October 10, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. And did you continue to 8 be on this assignment on July the 30th? 9 A: Yes, we were re-deployed as an ERT 10 team Sunday the 30th of July, 1995, at approximately 11 15:00 hours. Again advised to assemble the ERT team 12 members in relationship to the -- the same call from the 13 day before. 14 The team attended to Forest Detachment, 15 remained there and then the end result was we attended 16 the Pinery Provincial Park where we took up residence at 17 the bunkhouse. 18 Q: Okay. And were you given any further 19 information to shed light on what your anticipated or 20 your team's anticipated role was going to be at this 21 time? 22 A: We were just on standby to keep the 23 peace in that area. 24 Q: All right. In fact, did you engage 25 in any assignments or were you on standby the whole time?
481 A: Just on standby. 2 Q: All right. And did you continue to 3 be involved on July 31st? 4 A: Yes, I was. I began my shift at 5 07:00 hours on the 31st of July 1995 from the Pinery 6 Park. I was advised to remain at the Park. I remained 7 at the Park throughout the day and at approximately 23:00 8 hours that evening I was called out to patrol the 9 Ipperwash Park area and I was in the company of Officer 10 Joe Dellemonache and we did foot patrol at Ipperwash 11 Provincial Park. 12 Q: And were you advised as to why -- why 13 you were being asked to conduct foot patrols at the 14 Ipperwash Park? 15 A: Yes. The Provincial Park runs 16 adjacent -- adjacent to the Base. The Park was still up 17 and operational at that time for members of the public. 18 And we were just doing increased patrol to 19 ensure public safety. 20 Q: And at this time were you given any 21 indication that the police were concerned that the 22 occupiers of the Army Camp Base might expand the 23 occupation to the Park? 24 A: I don't specifically recall that. 25 But there was some concern for patrols in the area.
491 Q: All right. With respect to public 2 safety issues? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And were you involved in any 5 particular incidents or -- or occurrences during the 6 course of this -- of this patrol? 7 A: I was. 8 Q: Can you tell us about that please? 9 A: When I was in the Park that night and 10 I'm probably -- my recollection is around 2:30 or so in 11 the morning, I was standing just inside the Provincial 12 Park and I did note activity -- vehicle activity on the 13 Army Camp Base side of the beach. 14 Traffic vehicles being driven erratically, 15 high speeds and most -- most -- a lot of the traffic 16 would turn up Matheson Drive which is a road that kind of 17 separated the Provincial Park and the Army Base. 18 Q: And I understand that that road 19 travelled towards Outer Drive and before it reached Outer 20 Drive, curved towards the lake? 21 A: I don't know if you'd call it Outer 22 Drive. It -- it went up towards Army Camp Road from the 23 beach -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- straight up towards the Army Camp
501 parallel to the Base, kind of in behind the Provincial 2 Park and then it intersected at Army Camp Road. 3 Q: All right. But I'm talking -- okay, 4 that's -- that's the location you're talking about? 5 A: That's where I'm talking, yes. 6 Q: Thank you. Okay. 7 A: So while I'm there, I do observe a 8 vehicle come down the road -- or down the beach and I 9 observe two (2) young males that were walking on the 10 beach. The vehicle stopped, these young males got into 11 that car. 12 They came towards our location. There was 13 a bit of whooping and hollering and up they went up the 14 road, up Matheson Drive. I didn't really pay much 15 attention to it after that. 16 It was a short time later, maybe a minute 17 or so, I heard a loud bang. I didn't make any connection 18 between the vehicle and the loud bang until later that 19 morning. 20 Q: So you didn't go to investigate that 21 at the time? 22 A: Not at that time, no. 23 Q: All right. Okay. 24 A: My impression at that time was the 25 maintenance doors being closed on the Ipperwash Park
511 because there was a large maintenance building there and 2 I just thought it was the metal doors coming together. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Shortly after that, myself and Larry 5 Parks were now doubled up in a vehicle and we left the 6 Provincial Park out through the main gate, turning south 7 on Army Camp Road when -- 8 Q: So -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Just so we understand the directions, 11 which way is south? Lake side or Highway 21 side? 12 A: I would say Highway 21. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 A: That's why we describe it as being 15 south. So we're heading south on Army Camp Road; we come 16 up to Matheson Drive and I observe a vehicle parked 17 across the road blocking the road. 18 And there's a male who I learned to be 19 Bert Manning standing on the road and he's -- had been 20 drinking but he was very upset and distraught over a 21 situation that had occurred. 22 At the same time, I observed the vehicle 23 that I had seen coming up the beach, 'cause now across 24 the creek, it's hit a tree on the other side. 25 Q: Was this -- I'm sorry, within the
521 Army Camp or the... 2 A: No, it's outside the Army Camp. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: There was a young male in the water. 5 Q: I don't know if we need you to go 6 through all the details -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- of -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Maybe just in a general way you could 11 tell us what happened. 12 A: Well, there was some concern about a 13 baby being in the car so a frantic search. I called for 14 a couple of other officers to attend. A search was done 15 and the two (2) people that were still in the vehicle 16 were removed. 17 A male, female. Both were deceased. The 18 deceased persons were brought out of the vehicle. The 19 search for this baby, it turned out to not be a young 20 person in the vehicle. 21 And immediately activated ambulances, 22 other investigators, Sergeant Wright, Inspector Carson in 23 the end -- and a shift sergeant to attend the scene. 24 Q: And was that the end of your 25 involvement in this incident?
531 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what time did you go off duty 3 that night? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: At 06:00 hours. 8 Q: Okay, thank you. And you're looking 9 at page 51 of your notes now? 10 A: That is correct. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, just to go back to the incident 15 for one moment, did you have any interaction with Bert 16 Manning other than your observations of him? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And can you tell us about that? 19 A: Bert Manning was intoxicated at the 20 time when I was dealing with him. He -- I was busy with 21 the incident at hand trying to take care of the people at 22 the scene. 23 He left while this was going on, left in 24 his vehicle, returned a short time later with a young 25 female. The young female turned out to be the daughter
541 of a victim that was in the front seat. 2 A nine (9) year old girl. When I was 3 attending to the victims I see -- I saw Bert and this 4 young girl heading over towards the bodies and at that 5 time I interacted and I stopped him and I asked him what 6 he was going to do. 7 And he said it would be good thing for 8 this young girl, the daughter, to see her mother and the 9 mother was in no condition to be observed by a daughter. 10 And I told him that he would not be taking 11 the daughter to see the mother in that condition and that 12 we would arrange for her to be removed from the area. 13 He was quite insistent that this was a 14 good thing. Made comments that her father had died in 15 similar fashion. I wasn't going to allow that to happen. 16 As a result, I talked to a female who I 17 understood to be the partner of Mr. Manning. I spoke to 18 her off to the side with this young girl and I explained 19 the situation. 20 She was very good, very cooperative and 21 she understood the seriousness of the matter and I then 22 took this lady, who I don't recall who she is, and the 23 young girl and I have her name mentioned here, but 24 anyway, took them aside, gave her a teddy bear out of the 25 trunk of the car.
551 Obviously she was in shock and I removed 2 them in my vehicle. I drove them from the accident scene 3 to the main gate of Army Camp Road. 4 At that time I still believe that they 5 lived 2 1/2 kilometres -- 2 kilometres or whatever it is 6 into -- inside the Base from my recollection in '93, 7 where I believe Bert Manning lived and I could not leave 8 them at the front gate to fend for themselves. 9 It was hot with lots of mosquitos and it 10 was a very bad situation and this lady informed me that 11 she appreciated all the help and that they'd lived in one 12 (1) of the barrack buildings near the main gate. 13 I remained at the main gate until I saw 14 them walk away and into the Base and then I lost sight of 15 them. 16 Q: All right. And did you participate 17 or witness any -- any rituals conducted, Aboriginal 18 rituals conducted at -- at this time? 19 A: Yes, I did, I saw what -- a sweet 20 grass ceremony being conducted over the bodies. 21 Q: All right. Okay. Thank you. And I 22 understand that you continued to be involved in this 23 assignment on August the 1st and 2nd? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And over the course of those days
561 were you deployed or were -- did you remain on standby at 2 Pinery? 3 A: I remained on standby both of those 4 days inside the Park. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Pinery Park. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: All right. Now, were -- were you 12 required to fill out any type of duty report in relation 13 to your tour of duty from July 29 to August 1st? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: Or August 2nd? And if you would go 16 to Tab 5 please, it's Inquiry Document 2003608? It's 17 entitled Interview Report and there are handwritten 18 entries for each of the days from July 29th to August 19 2nd, 1995. Can you identify this document? 20 A: Yes, it is a report that I completed. 21 Q: All right. And is that your 22 handwriting? 23 A: It is. 24 Q: And does it accurately reflect the -- 25 the essence of your attendances during those days?
571 A: It sets out the -- the highlights at 2 the time. 3 Q: And who did you turn this report 4 into? 5 A: There was just a tray like an in-box 6 sort of tray inside the bunkhouse that we'd drop it off 7 in. 8 Q: And to your knowledge was the -- were 9 these reports being processed or recorded in some kind of 10 Excel sheet or other log? 11 A: I don't know. I put them in the box 12 and where they went from there I'm unaware. 13 Q: Fair enough. I'd like to make this 14 the next exhibit please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1388, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1388: Document Number 2003608. 18 Interview Report of P/C W. 19 Jacklin, July 29-August 02, 20 1995. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: And perhaps just to cover this off if 24 you'd go to Tab 7 please it's Exhibit P-411, excerpts 25 from a document entitled, CFB Ipperwash Incidents. It
581 appears to be a log of incidents report -- recorded by 2 the OPP in relation to the Army Camp. 3 And if you look at page 20 there's a July 4 29th, 1995, entry; it's the second page in your document. 5 There's a note at 14:13: 6 "Constable Jacklin advised to activate 7 ERT." 8 It's about a third of the way down. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: A little bit below that: 11 "16:00 hours Constables Jacklin..." 12 Now, it says "Denonte". Is that -- is 13 that Dellemon? 14 A: No, it's Joe Dellemonache is who it 15 was. 16 Q: Right. Okay. 17 "...of ERT arrive." 18 And do those times approximately accord 19 with your recollection of when you were called to 20 activate and when you arrived? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: And the next page, page 21, there's a 23 14:10 entry July 29th, 1995. You reported to Forest 24 Detachment. 25 "Stand by with ERT re. Camp Ipperwash
591 take -- turnover." 2 Is that something reported by you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And on page 29 a July 30th entry at 5 15:00 hours: 6 "Advised to call out Number 1 District 7 ERT. Assembled at Pinery Park 8 bunkhouse." 9 That's accurate? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Page 30, July 30th entry at 15:04: 12 "Inspector Carson reporting that -- 13 that Wayde Jacklin is calling in the 14 ERT." 15 And then at 15:55 you're reporting: 16 "Nine (9) members available plus two 17 (2) on patrol at Grand Bend." 18 Is that accurate? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And had you -- sorry, and finally 21 page 39, there's a entry August the 1st at the bottom. 22 You're on standby at the Pinery Park. 23 Page 40 at August the 1st, 02:00 hours. 24 First to the -- the accident that you've just told us 25 about --
601 A: That's correct. 2 Q: -- occurring and then page 50 of this 3 document an August 2nd entry, you're on standby, again at 4 the Pinery Provincial Park and is this a document that 5 you were familiar with or knew existed? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right, thank you. All right. 8 And do you recall what your next activation was with 9 respect to Ipperwash and you can refer to your notes if 10 that's helpful, at Tab 6, Exhibit P-1387. 11 A: Which Tab would that be? 12 Q: Tab 6. 13 A: 6? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: If you wish to go to the August 17th 18 entry, I -- it's page 7 in that document, but the page 19 number on your notebook isn't visible. 20 A: On Thursday, August 17th, 1995, I 21 would have no longer been at -- in the area. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: I would have been back on normal 24 patrols, I believe, the Sombra, and I was advised to meet 25 Sergeant Hogarth in Ravenswood, reference, unknown to me
611 at the time, problems at Camp Ipperwash. 2 Q: All right. And what were the nature 3 of the problems that he apprised you of? 4 A: I was not aware. 5 Q: Okay. And what happened next then? 6 A: Twenty-five (25) minutes later while 7 en route, I was told to disregard. 8 Q: All right. What was your next 9 assignment then, relative to Ipperwash? 10 A: On Saturday, 19th of August 1995, 1 11 District ERT was back on duty and we returned to Pinery 12 Park to do Ipperwash patrols. 13 Q: And when you say Ipperwash patrols, 14 patrols of what, specifically? 15 A: They were -- we were doing increased 16 -- we were supplementing the uniformed members in the 17 area with additional patrols. 18 Our patrol area of responsibility at that 19 time was primarily the area between, I'll use Outer Drive 20 over to Ipperwash Road. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Down to the lake. That was the 23 primary additional patrol area. 24 Q: And did it include Highway 21. 25 A: It did.
621 Q: All right, as the outer limit? 2 A: We weren't restricted to that area. 3 We were doing -- but that was the general area, yes. 4 Q: Okay. And what were you -- were you 5 at this time advised as to what the -- the object of your 6 patrols would be? 7 A: It was just increased police presence 8 in the area to ensure the safe movement of people through 9 there. There had been some concerns from people in the 10 area of activity that was going on and this was just to 11 reassure them there was, in fact, a police presence. 12 Q: So I take it that you were uniformed 13 and in cruse -- marked cruisers? 14 A: That is correct. 15 Q: And did you have any -- any 16 understanding at this time with respect to the Park as a 17 potential takeover target? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: All right. And what was the -- the 20 extent of your information? 21 A: There was some rumblings or rumours 22 that First Nations people from the Army Camp, they want 23 to move into Ipperwash Provincial Park at some point. 24 Q: And were you provided with any or did 25 you have any understanding with respect to the possible
631 motivational factors for the -- for a potential moving 2 into the Park? 3 A: I believe so, yes. 4 Q: And what were they? 5 A: My recollection is that there was 6 talk that there was a burial ground that was either in 7 the -- in the Provincial Park or adjacent to it. 8 And this was part of the motivation behind 9 it, that was my understanding. 10 Q: All right. Did you also have any 11 understanding with respect to the relations between the 12 Chief and Council of Kettle and Stony Point and the 13 occupiers at the Army Camp with respect to the propriety 14 of the occupation? 15 A: Yes. There were -- there was some 16 disagreements from both sides. I don't -- there was 17 obviously some conflict within the First Nations 18 community on what was taking place. 19 Q: And at this time did you have any 20 familiarity with the identities of any of the occupiers 21 of the Army Camp? 22 A: Several. I knew Bert Manning by that 23 time and I -- I believe I knew Judas George. Outside 24 that I don't recall. 25 Q: And did you understand Judas George
641 to be also known as Roderick George at the time? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: All right. And how is it that you 4 had any familiarity with -- with Roderick George? 5 A: On -- on these dates here I -- 6 Roderick -- I don't recall him being at the acts of that 7 night. He may have been. And the contact I had with him 8 personally was after the 19th of August. 9 But if we're talking in the context of the 10 whole events -- 11 Q: The 19th to the 23rd. 12 A: -- I -- I don't know for sure but I - 13 - I don't know for sure. 14 Q: Okay. I'm interested in knowing I 15 guess whether you were provided with any identities or 16 profile information by the OPP of the occupants. 17 A: I was not. 18 Q: All right. And did you have any -- 19 were you able to recognize anyone other than Bert Manning 20 by name? 21 A: I don't believe so. 22 Q: All right. Thank you. And at this 23 time was there any discussion that you were involved in 24 with respect to what the police response would be in the 25 event of an occupation of the Park?
651 A: Yes. 2 Q: What was your understanding? 3 A: It was very clear to me that we were 4 going to -- if -- if the Park was occupied that we would 5 remain in the Park until directed to leave, that we were 6 to ensure the safe movement of people through the Park 7 because at that time leading into early September, that 8 Park was still running as a Provincial Park. 9 The Park itself, people still have access 10 to it from the beach on either side so public -- people 11 walking that sort of stuff, were using the Park all the 12 time. We were just to ensure public safety in that area. 13 Q: All right. And what was the source 14 of your direction with respect to this response -- this 15 potential response? 16 A: Prior to -- 17 Q: Yes. Prior -- 18 A: -- the -- the actual occupation? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: We were just to maintain public peace 21 in that area and then if it escalated into occupation, 22 that then was a series of steps that were going to unfold 23 or take place. 24 Q: All right. Now I understand that you 25 continued to be on patrol duty if you will, through to
661 August the 23rd; is that right? 2 A: That is correct. 3 Q: And did anything of significance 4 occur during the course of your patrols from August 19th 5 to the 23rd, anything of significance that stands out for 6 you? 7 A: Nothing of significance, no. 8 Q: All right. Did you have any meetings 9 with any of the occupiers at the Military Base or at the 10 main gate to the Military Base? 11 A: Did I? No. 12 Q: And your notes of this assignment are 13 found at pages -- well, the seventh to twelfth pages of 14 the document at Tab 6? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: This is leading up to the 31st of 19 August? 20 Q: We're still at the -- I'm just 21 covering off the 19th to the 23rd, 1995. 22 A: Yes? 23 Q: And your notes of your patrols 24 reflected at pages 7 through 12 using my numbering system 25 as the seventh to twelfth page of the document.
671 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, this -- those are my notes of 4 that period. 5 Q: Okay. And if we go to Tab 8, it's 6 Exhibit P-1233, Inquiry Document 2000800. This is a 7 operational report dated August 19, 1995, for your shift 8 8:00 a.m. to 22:00? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: All right. And is that something 11 that you filed? 12 A: I -- I did not file that report. 13 Q: Your partner did? 14 A: I believe so, yes. 15 Q: And it's accurate? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And if you go to Tab 9, Operational 18 Report August 21, 1995, reflecting your shift with 19 Officer Root 19:00 to 03:00 hours whose handwriting is 20 this? 21 A: That is mine. 22 Q: And is that an accurate depiction of 23 that patrol? 24 A: Yes, it is. 25 Q: And we make that the next exhibit
681 please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-1389, Your 3 Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1389: Document Number 2000828. 6 Handwritten ERT Operational 7 Report, Root/Jacklin, August 8 21, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: And if you move on to Tab 10 please? 12 This is operational report August 22, 1995, the shift 13 13:00 hours to 02:00 hours. Again, is that your 14 handwriting? 15 A: No, it is not. 16 Q: Is that your -- your partner, Officer 17 Root? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: And does it accurately set out the -- 20 the detail of your patrol? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Make that the next exhibit please? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1390, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1390: Document number 2000806.
691 Handwritten ERT Operational 2 Report, Root/Jacklin, August 3 22, 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: And we move on now to Tab 11, it's 7 Exhibit P-413. This is excerpts from a log entitled, CFB 8 Intelligence Report and you're noted -- at least comments 9 relevant to you are noted on three (3) pages. The first 10 is page 63 August 19, 1995, entry just indicating patrol 11 of Ipperwash Camp. 12 No incidents reported during patrol; 13 that's consistent with your recollection? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at page 64 August 21, 1995, your 16 shift there again: 17 "Patrols all very quiet. No vehicles 18 moving along Camp or beach area.' 19 That's accurate of your patrol? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And August 22nd shift: 22 "Patrolled areas of CFB Ipperwash and 23 Ipperwash Provincial Park with no 24 incidents to report." 25 And that's accurate?
701 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And that -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 4 Exhibit P-413? You want to mention that. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, it is, thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 11. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah. It's Exhibit P- 8 413; that's right. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: And had you been made privy to this 12 log? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. All right. Now, we 15 return to your notes at Tab 6, please? Sorry to take you 16 back and forth. Your next entry is August 31, 1995. Is 17 that the next -- and it's page 79 of your police notes. 18 Is that your next activation with respect to Ipperwash? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: All right. And can you please tell 21 us the circumstances of this -- of this assignment? 22 A: Our -- our ERT team, 1 District, we 23 were reassigned back up to the Ipperwash area to Pinery. 24 On the 31st of August, 1995 at -- I came on duty at seven 25 o'clock. I was in -- in the company of Sergeant Korosec.
711 We attended the Pinery and the duties we -- one (1) of 2 our duties we set up a Victrix antenna and did radio 3 checks in the area -- or in the area. 4 At approximately 19:00 hours I was on 5 patrol with Officer Dave Myers in the Ipperwash area. 6 Q: All right. And were you provided 7 with any information at the outset of this assignment 8 about what the cir -- current circumstances were around 9 Ipperwash and why it was you were being activated at that 10 time? 11 A: I don't think the situation had 12 changed much. We were just relieving the other ERT team 13 so they could have some relief and we would continue the 14 same as we had been. 15 Q: And was -- what were the 16 communications capabilities that you were working on? 17 A: I was working on a portable radio. 18 And I believe we were working on a tactical channel. 19 Q: All right. Tactical channel for the 20 use of whom? 21 A: For use of -- it's -- it's a separate 22 channel so we're not interfering with the general patrol 23 people. So we -- we could onto a separate channel. 24 Q: Just for Ipperwash related matters? 25 A: That's correct.
721 Q: And was it set up on August the 31st? 2 A: I don't recall if it was or not. 3 Q: And did anything of significance 4 occur during the course of your patrols? 5 A: Later that evening I -- I ended up in 6 Pinery Provincial Par -- or in Ipperwash Park and I did 7 observe vehicle traffic in the Army Camp area along the 8 beach. But nothing of significance. 9 Q: All right. And I note on your notes 10 at page 80 at five (5) minutes after midnight so now we 11 would be in just into September 1st, you've got a 12 notation 'fin car'. Do you recall anything about that? 13 A: That's correct. That was actually at 14 02:05, 2:05 in the morning. 15 Q: Sorry, I misread that. 16 A: I observed a car with -- with fins, 17 with large fins on it travelling east on the beach. 18 Q: All right. Commissioner, I wonder if 19 we might take the -- the morning break at this time 20 before I move onto the next series of days. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Certainly. 22 This is a good time to take the morning break. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.
731 2 --- Upon recessing at 10:23 a.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 10:48 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, thank you. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Thank you, staff sergeant. Perhaps 15 you would turn to page 80 of your police notes at Tab 6, 16 Exhibit P-1387, Inquiry Document 2005593. 17 And it appears that you were engaged on 18 September the 1st 1995, on an assignment relevant or 19 relative to Ipperwash? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you continued this assignment 22 through to September the 3rd, 1995, so I wonder if you 23 could just explain in a general term, first of all, what 24 your general duties were in relation to Ipperwash over 25 the course of those days?
741 A: Yes. The -- we continued to do 2 patrols in the area I talked about before. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Spent a little more time in the 5 Provincial Park itself doing vehicle and foot patrols as 6 well. 7 Q: And I'm sorry, and at this time are 8 you in uniform the whole time? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: So you're providing a visible police 11 presence? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And starting with September 1st, 18 then, 1995. Did anything of significance occur on that 19 day? 20 A: On Friday the 1st of September, 11:50 21 a.m. there's a couple of people observed on the army 22 dune-- camp side of the base that were sunbathing and... 23 Q: Would you just keep your voice up 24 for us -- 25 A: Yes.
751 Q: So we can all hear you. Thank you. 2 A: Yes. At 11:50 a.m. there was two (2) 3 people that turned out to be from Michigan that were 4 sunbathing on the dune side of the base, on the army camp 5 by the dunes. 6 Q: The army camp beach, do you mean? 7 A: By the dunes. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Yes. And we just directed them -- 10 informed them of the situation there and -- and they 11 left. 12 Q: And just in that respect, what was 13 your understanding with respect to the importance of 14 keeping the Park users away from the military portion of 15 the beach? 16 A: the information that I was receiving 17 was that there had been threats made against non-Native 18 people that had ventured onto that portion of the beach, 19 so in the effort of public safety, we were trying to stop 20 them prior them going into that area. 21 Q: All right. Okay, and at this time 22 were there any signs posted in and around the area to 23 give warning to -- to people that they should not to go 24 over to the military side of the base? 25 A: I don't recall any signs.
761 Q: All right. All right, and anything 2 else of significance occur on the 1st during the course 3 of your patrols? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did you continue with your 9 patrols on Saturday, September the 2nd, '95? 10 A: That is correct. 11 Q: And did you observe anything or were 12 you involved in any incidents of consequence on that day? 13 A: On Saturday the 2nd of September, I 14 worked from ten o'clock at night. We were doing -- I was 15 doing vehicle patrols with Officer Myers in the Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park area. 17 And during my course of duties that night, 18 I did have several vehicle stops and -- and the -- and 19 arrested an impaired driver earlier in the morning of -- 20 it would be the 3rd of September. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: But outside that, there was nothing 23 of significance. 24 Q: Fair enough. And carrying over, then 25 to September the 3rd on your -- let's put it this way.
771 The -- your September 3rd shift. 2 Did anything of significance occur during 3 the course of your patrols on that day, and your notes 4 are at, it looks like page 87, if I'm reading that 5 correctly. It looks like you were off duty the day -- or 6 that morning at 9:00 in the morning and then you were 7 back on duty on September the 3rd at 19:00 hours? 8 A: That's correct. I was in the company 9 of Officer Myers. Again we were doing vehicle patrols 10 and in the course of my duties I did have -- I did make 11 several vehicle stops during that shift and nothing of 12 significance to report and I went off duty at 03:30. 13 Q: Now, just let me ask you, what was 14 the basis of your vehicle stops because I mean there 15 wasn't a checkpoint at this point was there? 16 A: No, there was no checkpoint. As a 17 police officer patrolling an area there's an obligation 18 obviously when traffic is moving around to -- at that 19 time being a police officer for eleven (11) years and the 20 normal course of my duties would be to stop vehicles on 21 the road, to see the -- ensure the sobriety of the 22 driver, ensure they are properly licenced under the 23 Highway Traffic Act, and -- and that their vehicle was 24 insured. 25 Q: All right. All right. And over the
781 course of September the 1st to the 3rd did you receive 2 any more particular information with respect to the 3 possible occupation of the Park? 4 A: I believe so. 5 Q: And what was the nature of that 6 information? 7 A: My recollection of the information 8 was that there was information or a strong rumour that at 9 the conclusion of the summer season the Park may be 10 occupied. 11 Q: And what date would that be? 12 A: September 4th. 13 Q: So the Labour Day Monday? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: All right. And why was it relevant 16 for you to have that particular information? 17 A: Well, I think it's very important for 18 a police officer to be aware of what was going on at that 19 time. We wanted to ensure the public safety of all 20 involved. 21 Q: All right. And at that -- at that 22 time did -- did you become -- did -- were you aware of -- 23 of any -- of what the level -- let me put it this way, 24 were you aware of any contingency, specific contingency 25 plan in place as of September the 1st with respect to the
791 potential occupation of Ipperwash Park? 2 A: I'm -- I'm not sure which date I 3 would have been aware of a contingency plan but I did 4 become aware of one, yes. 5 Q: All right. And specifically were -- 6 were you aware of a plan that was titled Project Maple? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Were you briefed with respect to the 9 -- the ERT's anticipated role within Project Maple? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: By whom and when? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I believe in Tuesday the 5th of 16 September my notes were flagged. I attended a briefing 17 at 01:00 hours and it refers to Maple. I am not aware 18 who gave the briefing at that time. 19 Q: Okay. And I'm just -- we will get to 20 that -- to that particular entry but I -- I'd like to 21 know what the state of your aware -- awareness was as of 22 September the 3rd, so prior to the Park occupation. 23 And maybe I can ask it this way, were you 24 aware that a meeting had been held at the London 25 Detachment on September the 1st by Inspector Carson with
801 respect to developing and -- and explaining Project 2 Maple? 3 A: I wasn't aware of that. 4 Q: All right. And so I take it you 5 weren't apprised of the outcome of that particular 6 meeting by Sergeant Korosec or anyone else on his behalf? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: All right. And did you have any 9 particular instructions, now this is prior to the 4th, 10 with respect to engaging with the occupiers as a police 11 officer? Were there any kind of rules of engagement that 12 you were given? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you tell me what those were? 15 A: At that time in relationship to the 16 Park, if it was to be occupied we were going to maintain 17 a police presence. We were going to keep the peace in 18 the area and under no circumstances would we take any 19 action. We were there to contain the situation and allow 20 the process of a peaceful resolution occur. 21 Q: All right. And this is the 22 understanding you had prior to September the 4th? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Were you provided with any guidelines 25 with respect to whether or not or what the arrest process
811 would be with respect to people coming into the Park 2 without permission prior to the 4th? 3 A: We weren't going to be arresting 4 anybody at that time. We were to allow the Park to be 5 occupied. We were just going to maintain a police 6 presence, ensure public safety. 7 Q: All right. Were you apprised of how 8 an evacuation of the Park -- of Park users would be 9 conducted in the event of a Park occupation prior to the 10 4th? 11 A: I -- I don't recall the specifics but 12 we were -- we were advising people in the Park -- I'm not 13 saying it was on the 3rd, it may have been after that, 14 that we were advising that it would probably be best that 15 they don't travel into the Park. 16 Q: Okay. But prior to the occupation 17 presumably, you said that. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. Were you provided with any -- 20 giving any other directions to either Park personnel or 21 Park users in planning for the possibility, the strong 22 possibility now of -- of a Park occupation occurring at 23 the end of the season? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what additional instructions were
821 you providing? Or directions? 2 A: Again, we were just peacekeeping at 3 that point. It -- it was beyond us on the ground. We 4 were maintaining the peace. But if the Park had -- was 5 to be occupied that there would be some conversation 6 between other people assigned. 7 I'm not sure who they are, with the 8 occupiers to let them know they were trespassing, give 9 them the opportunity to leave. If that was to fail, I 10 believe the MNR -- representative of that Park was to be 11 involved in these discussions. 12 If that fell through there would be a 13 court injunction sought. And then whatever action after 14 that was depending upon what took place. 15 Q: All right. And were you taking your 16 direct instructions if you will, from Sergeant Korosec 17 over the course of the weekend? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: Did you have any independent 20 briefings or conversations with Inspector Carson? 21 A: I don't believe so. 22 Q: Or Sergeant Wright? 23 A: I don't believe so. 24 Q: All right. Did you have any presence 25 -- okay, that's fine. Did you have any presence at the
831 Forest Detachment during that time period? 2 A: On the 4th of September -- 3 Q: Okay, we're not quite there yet so. 4 A: Okay. This is in the early morning 5 of the 3rd or into the 4th. Is there a specific date 6 we're talking as far as the Forest Detachment? 7 Q: No, no. I just -- No, I just was 8 wondering if -- if you had a presence there. I don't 9 have a specific reference. 10 A: Oh, no. 11 Q: Thank you. Now in retrospect, how 12 well do you think you were informed of the contin -- 13 about the contingency police plans known as Project 14 Maple, then, at the point of occupation of the Park on 15 September 4th? 16 A: I think I was well-briefed based on 17 the information that I was -- would be required to know. 18 Q: All right. And so let's move then to 19 September the 4th, 1995. Your notes commence on page 89 20 of your police book or the 23rd page into the documents 21 of Exhibit P-1387 at Tab 6. 22 And perhaps you can tell us first of all, 23 when -- when did you come on duty and -- well I should 24 ask you this in advance. 25 Was your entire ERT team at the -- at the
841 Pinery Park at this time? 2 A: I believe so. 3 Q: All right. So moving then to 4 September the 4th at -- 5 A: Actually I may clarify that. I think 6 there was two (2) of the members were assigned to Grand 7 Bend Detachment. 8 Q: All right, that's right, okay. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: All right, and you were going to tell 13 us about being at the Forest Detachment during the late - 14 - sorry, early morning hours? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: No, I'm sorry. I don't want to take 19 you there, yet. Let's back up. When did you come on 20 duty on September the 4th, 1995? 21 A: 13:00 hours. 22 Q: All right. And what was your 23 function that day? 24 A: I was in the company of Officer Myers 25 and we were doing patrols in the Ipperwash Park, army
851 camp area. 2 Q: And that patrol commenced at 4:00 3 p.m.? 4 A: No, the -- it actually started at 5 13:00 hours. 6 Q: All right. I'm just looking at your 7 notes at page 89. 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: At 16:00 hours I did have a -- an 11 occurrence that, while on patrol, if that's what you're 12 referring to, the 16:00 hour -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- entry. Yes, Officer Myers and I 15 attended the bottom end of Matheson Drive at the beach. 16 Q: And what happened? 17 A: We -- there had been a large 18 gathering of people there the night before, First Nations 19 people, in that area and they had a large fire and it 20 went on to about two o'clock. I was actually working and 21 present in that area at that time. 22 It created a bit of a hazard at that 23 location so officer Myers and I had went -- patrolled 24 down Matheson Drive to that location. 25 Q: And just to be specific, can you be
861 more specific as to what end of the Park you were at? 2 A: We were -- Matheson Drive, like I 3 said before, separates the Provincial Park from the army 4 camp. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: So it's right in between. So it 7 would be on the -- the east side of the Provincial Park, 8 the east boundary. 9 Q: All right, and is this where it bends 10 into the beach, towards the beach, Matheson Drive? 11 A: Matheson Drive ends at the -- at the 12 lake. 13 Q: Okay. Yes, at that end of the -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- Park? All right, thank you. 16 Carry on. 17 A: We attended that location. We exited 18 our marked -- fully marked police vehicle and started 19 moving pieces of burnt wood with nails and that sort of 20 thing, I think they were pallets that had been burned the 21 night before. 22 We were at that location for a very short 23 period of time when a -- a black Trans Am, who was being 24 op -- the vehicle being operated by Judas George, 25 attended our location.
871 The vehicle came down the beach at a high 2 rate of speed, went between the concrete blocks that were 3 kind of separating Matheson Drive from the army camp. 4 The vehicle came to a sliding stop in front of our 5 cruiser. 6 The passenger in the vehicle, who I later 7 recognized or identified as Stuart, or Worm George, he's 8 occupying the right front passenger seat. 9 As they come to a stop, he takes his door, 10 slams it against the front end of the cruiser and then 11 Judas George and Worm George both exit the vehicle. 12 Q: So the -- the door made physical 13 contact with the cruiser? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did it cause any damage? 16 A: It caused some minor damage to the 17 left front corner of the bumper. 18 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 19 A: There was four (4) parties in the 20 vehicle; two (2) females in the back, Judas and Worm in 21 the front. 22 I would describe them as all being highly 23 intoxicated. 24 Q: Based on what? 25 A: My observations --
881 Q: All right. 2 A: -- of their physical condition. Also 3 noted open alcohol in the vehicle at that time as well. 4 They immediately started yelling at us and 5 ordering us off the road. 6 Q: The road being Matheson Drive? 7 A: Being Matheson Drive. 8 Q: Yes. Did they make any reference as 9 to why you should leave that road? 10 A: The -- that it was their land, and to 11 get off. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I tried to use as much diplomacy I 14 could under the circumstances and tried to talk to them 15 to -- really to no avail. There were very upset and a 16 number of other people by this -- a number of other 17 people at this time started to gather around, First 18 Nations people, they started coming from down the beach, 19 I guess, to our location. 20 The situation started to escalate for 21 potential for violence and called for some backup. 22 Sergeant Korosec did attend, there were some other 23 officers present as well. 24 I had -- I was -- I was threatened to some 25 degree by Worm George and some of the comments that he
891 made that were of some concern but -- 2 Q: Can you be more specific about that? 3 A: Yes. What he -- what he had said to 4 me, I was standing pretty close to him. He was in front 5 of me and I believe Sergeant Korosec was now speaking to 6 Judas and Worm said to me, How many rifles to you -- no, 7 how many sights do you think you're in, rifle sights do 8 you think you're in and he was referring to -- to the 9 dunes. 10 Q: That's how you took it? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Yes? And -- 13 A: And I made a reply to him. 14 Q: What was your reply? 15 A: And I -- I tried to make light of the 16 situation to tell you the truth. It was a -- it was a 17 volatile situation and the comment I made was, I hope 18 they're a good shot because your head's between mine and 19 theirs. And I thought that would help diffuse the 20 situation. 21 Q: Did it? 22 A: I -- I think he actually sat back for 23 a minute and -- and I -- I think it did help a little 24 bit. 25 Q: All right. Then what happened?
901 A: Other officers by this time had 2 attended the scene and Sergeant Korosec asked for Dave 3 Myers and myself to take the vehicle and to leave the 4 area and we did. 5 Q: Okay. Now, you indicated that -- 6 first of all just to back up a little bit that there was 7 a little -- some -- some damage to your cruiser. Did 8 you have to make a -- a report of that damage? 9 A: There was a report made; I don't know 10 if I made it. 11 Q: All right. And to your knowledge was 12 photographs taken of your car, the cruiser? 13 A: I believe so. 14 Q: If you look at Tab 14 this is Inquiry 15 Document 2001173 entitled Photographic List. And there 16 are two (2) photographs, number 1 and number 2. Now, I 17 appreciate that the photocopies are not useful to you 18 right now, but do you recall whether or not those were 19 the photographs taken of the damage to your bumper? 20 A: I don't believe I took the photograph 21 but -- 22 Q: No. 23 A: -- that would depict a -- a Ford 24 Crown Victoria police vehicle. 25 Q: Do you recognize the licence plate?
911 A: I do not. 2 Q: All right. Attached to it is an 3 estimate, November 6, 1995. To your knowledge -- maybe 4 you could look at the make of the car, a Crown Victoria 5 1995 serial number, licence plate. Do you -- do you 6 recognize that identifying information? 7 A: The -- underneath it it has vehicle 8 number I believe? It's hard to read the writing but one 9 dash three six three (1-363) -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- that would identify the number on 12 the side of the vehicle. That would be consistent with 13 the vehicle I was operating. The licence plate doesn't 14 mean anything to me. 15 Q: Okay. But the vehicle, the -- the 16 call number, if you will, is there? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 19 next exhibit please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1391, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1391: Document Number 2001173. 23 Photographic List of OPP 24 cruiser damage; Close-up 25 photos (2) of OPP cruiser
921 damage and estimate for 2 repair of OPP cruiser. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: And just to be clear you've indicated 6 the damage was -- was slight? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: All right. And at any point during 9 this exchange, prior to Sergeant Korosec arriving, did 10 you advise these two (2) individuals that one (1) or both 11 of them might be arrested? 12 A: I believe so. 13 Q: Can you give us more details about 14 that? 15 A: There was several Criminal Code 16 offences that had taken place and one (1) being the -- 17 the dangerous driving of the -- of the occupants or the 18 driver of that vehicle. In my observations the driver 19 was impaired. 20 My understanding at that time that road 21 was still part of -- actually an impaired driver can be 22 arrested anywhere, it doesn't have to be on a highway. 23 The person was impaired in my opinion. And also there 24 was mischief that was done to the vehicle. 25 Q: All right. And did -- so you
931 actually advised these individuals that they could be the 2 subject of an arrest? 3 A: Yes, I did. There was conversation 4 surrounding arrest. 5 Q: And did you in fact carry out an 6 arrest? 7 A: Did not. 8 Q: Why not? 9 A: It just -- the situation -- the way 10 things were escalating at that time, it was more prudent 11 to disengage. 12 Q: All right. And you indicated that 13 you called for a backup and Sergeant Korosec arrived. Do 14 you know how many police officers arrived with him? 15 A: I do not know. 16 Q: All right. In any event you 17 indicated you observed a discussion between Sergeant 18 Korosec and Roderick George? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: Did you over -- were you close enough 21 to overhear it? 22 A: I was fairly close. I was more 23 focussed on that -- at that time with Stewart George. 24 Q: All right. Did you -- did you hear - 25 - and can you relay what you did hear, if anything, of
941 that conversation? 2 A: I don't remember specifics. 3 Q: All right. And you indicated that 4 the -- Stewart George and Roderick George identified 5 Matheson Drive as their land. Is that the first time 6 that you had heard or were aware of a claim over Matheson 7 Drive? 8 A: No. Back in 1993, when I was 9 deployed with a video camera, there was -- I was there 10 video taping because they were setting up a toll at that 11 location. 12 Q: Okay. All right. And with respect 13 to the comments by Stewart George in relation to being 14 within or how many -- within gun sights I think you put 15 it, from the dunes; what was the level of seriousness 16 with which you took these comments with respect to that 17 indication at the time? 18 A: Anytime when you're threatened that 19 you may be shot, I take that very serious. 20 Q: And did you see any actual firearms 21 during the course of this incident? 22 A: I did not. 23 Q: Did you form any belief as to whether 24 or not firearms were present in the Army Camp at this 25 time?
951 A: Do I believe? 2 Q: Did you form a belief? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what was your belief? 5 A: I believed that there were firearms 6 on that Base. 7 Q: And what was the basis of your 8 belief? 9 A: Over the course of time that I was 10 there, I was aware of -- through briefings or incidents 11 that people in the area had -- citizens that live in the 12 area had heard gunfire coming from the Base. 13 I believed them to be true. No reason not 14 to believe them. 15 Q: All right. And do you recall whether 16 or not Officer Neil Whelan attended at this incident? 17 A: Yes, I do recall him being there. 18 Q: And did you receive any subsequent 19 reports that any firearms had been sighted at the scene? 20 A: I did. 21 Q: And when and what the nature of that 22 report? 23 A: I don't recall receiving that 24 information while I was there. I recall hearing or 25 receiving the information after I left.
961 Q: All right. And -- and from whom? 2 A: I believe it was from Officer Whelan. 3 Q: And what did he tell you? 4 A: There was a conversation surrounding 5 a vehicle that had attended that location. The trunk was 6 open and he had looked inside and observed I believe he 7 said a rifle stock underneath -- 8 Q: A rifle -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Go ahead. 11 A: If I recall it was in the trunk but 12 underneath some stuff, and part of a rifle was showing. 13 Q: But you did not observe any such 14 item? 15 A: I did not. 16 Q: Did you observe the vehi -- a vehicle 17 with its trunk open at that site? 18 A: There was a lot going on at that 19 time. Again, I was very specific with Worm George and 20 the other occupants of the vehicle that was my primary 21 focus. I really wasn't observing a whole lot of else 22 going on at that time. 23 Q: All right. And did the -- did the 24 incident or the tension that you've described eventually 25 diffuse while you were there?
971 A: It did. 2 Q: All right. And how was it resolved? 3 A: Well, again, I had left when it was 4 still -- I don't know if it was totally resolved when I 5 left, but I think just by the mere fact that we withdraw 6 or disengaged, you know, it's to fight with yourself. 7 Q: Okay. And if you go to your -- your 8 notes then, at pages 88 to 89, Tab 6. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: That's from the night before 13 September 3rd at 21:15 you observed or you were advised 14 about First Nations building a large fire at the end of 15 Matheson Road and you make a recording of that. 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right. And then you proceed to - 18 - to make notes of this incident. And where are those, 19 September 4th? Starting at page 89, I believe. 20 A: Involving in the incident on the 21 beach? 22 Q: Yes. The one you've just described. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Those notes appear at pages 89 25 through to 90?
981 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: All right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And I note that in your description 9 of this incident -- well, let me ask you first of all. 10 Do you recall when you made the note at 16:00 hours 11 reflecting this incident with Roderick George and Stuart 12 George? 13 A: I don't specifically recollect. I 14 think it was shortly after. 15 Q: All right. And I note that there's 16 no reference in the note with respect to the threat that 17 you described concerned the gun sight comments? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And why didn't you insert that detail 20 into your notes? 21 A: It was a major oversight. 22 Q: All right. Similarly, I didn't see 23 any reference to having reasonable grounds for an arrest. 24 Is that something that you would normally put in to your 25 notes in the absence of an arrest?
991 A: Well at the time, I mean, the notes 2 obviously are to refresh your memory. If I were to write 3 these notes again or -- I would have put more detail in 4 there. Those incidents are very clear in my mind. 5 Q: All right. And there's no notation 6 with respect to Officer Whelan's advice to you that he 7 had seen the stock of a rifle in a trunk. 8 Is that an omission? 9 A: That's correct. Like, you don't -- I 10 don't -- I would never have recorded a conversation that 11 I had with people in my notebook. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. And if you go 13 to Tab 12, Inquiry Document 2004336. This appears to be 14 a general occurrence report. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Filed on September the 6th, 1995 17 regarding an incident from September 4, 1995, 16:00 hours 18 concerning the damage to a cruiser's front bumper. 19 Is this a report that you -- you caused to 20 be or that -- did you provide information for this 21 report? 22 A: I would have provided some 23 information, but I did not create this report. 24 Q: Okay. 25
1001 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I notice that it reads in part, 4 in reference to the damage to the cruiser: 5 "Due to the large number of Natives in 6 the area, [redacted] was not arrested 7 at the time. A warrant to arrest was 8 later obtained for [and the name's 9 redacted and blank] on CPIC as wanted." 10 So did you cause a warrant for the arrest 11 of Mr. George to occur, Stuart George? 12 A: No. Some of the information that 13 would have been provided would have been the basis of the 14 warrant but I did not obtain a warrant myself. 15 Q: Okay. But were you aware that one 16 was obtained? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 19 next exhibit, please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1392, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1392: Document Number 2004336. 23 General Occurrence Report 24 16548 -3, September 04, 1995. 25
1011 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: And did you also provide a statement 3 which outlined the -- the incident that you have 4 described, involving Stuart George and Roderick George? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And if you go to Tab 13, Exhibit -- 7 sorry, Inquiry document 2003606. Is that the statement 8 that you provide -- at least a typed version of the 9 statement -- 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: -- in front and behind it there's a 12 handwritten version of the statement. Is that your 13 handwriting? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: All right. And does this accurately 16 and truthfully set out the events of -- of this incident 17 to the best of your recollection? 18 A: To the best of my recollection, yes. 19 Q: And I don't see a date as to when 20 this statement was prepared. Can you help us out in 21 relation to September the 4th when it was prepared 22 approximately? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1021 A: I'm not sure. I don't recall. 2 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 3 next exhibit please? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1393, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1393: Document Number 2003606. OPP 7 statement of Wayde Jacklin 8 and handwritten version (re. 9 September 04, 1995). 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: All right. And perhaps we could go to 13 page 2 of that statement the top paragraph. This is 14 referencing your inter -- exchange with Stewart George 15 prior to Sergeant Korosec coming, I believe? 16 "He screamed at me [and I'm quoting] He 17 screamed at me that I was on his land 18 and that he was arresting me. The male 19 party operating the vehicle, Judas 20 Roderick George exited the vehicle 21 along with two (2) females that were in 22 the back seat. All of them began 23 yelling at us ordering us to leave. 24 Numerous other Native persons began 25 arriving at our location and backup
1031 officers were called. 2 Sergeant Korosec attended the location 3 and tried talking to Judas George. 4 Worm George asked me how many gun 5 sights I thought were aimed at my head 6 from the sand dunes behind him. The 7 situation was deteriorating so Sergeant 8 Korosec advised we were leaving 9 Matheson Drive at that time. 10 Provincial Constable Myers and I went 11 [sorry] left and went into Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park and did vehicle and 13 foot patrols." 14 And does that refresh your memory with 15 respect to what occurred? 16 A: Yes, it does. 17 Q: And the sequence of events? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Thank you. And where did you that 20 you -- you've indicated that you went back to the -- the 21 Park to conduct patrols after this event? 22 A: Yes, inside the Ipperwash Provincial 23 Park. 24 Q: All right. And what if anything 25 happened of significance next?
1041 A: There was a number of things that 2 took place later that afternoon when we returned to the 3 Park. Specifically there were still some campers -- or 4 still some people in the Park, in the Provincial Park, so 5 we were -- we were now doing patrols. 6 I guess this was the time that we maybe 7 anticipated that the Park would be occupied so we were 8 doing patrols and ensuring, if we could, get people that 9 were passing through the area to leave. We -- that was 10 our advisement to them was -- 11 Q: All right. 12 A: -- to leave. 13 Q: And this is later in the afternoon 14 after four o'clock sometime? 15 A: It was after 4:00, yes. 16 Q: And how many officers were on patrol, 17 to your knowledge, in the Park at this time, this late 18 afternoon time period? 19 A: I don't recall the number. 20 Q: More than yourself and Officer Myers? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Carry on. 23 A: The situation was Officer Myers and I 24 eventually ended up down just inside the Provincial Park 25 down in the area of Matheson but in the Park. I recall
1051 there being a Park bench, cement, like right on a bit of 2 a knoll inside the Park and we sat there just making 3 observation. Later in the afternoon a number of First 4 Nations people started walking into the Park. 5 I remember sitting on that bench for a 6 considerable amount of time talking to a number of First 7 Nations people. At times the tensions were a little 8 high; some accusations were being made on their part. 9 Q: Of what nature? 10 A: The -- you know the conversation were 11 -- were really general. Yes, conversations about who 12 owned the Park. It wasn't my job to get into who owns 13 the Park, I had a role there to play and I tried to make 14 small talk and be as personable as I could to help 15 diffuse the situation. 16 I remember conversations we had where some 17 of the members were saying how their fathers helped build 18 the Blue Water Bridge. My family, that's the business 19 they had. 20 They don't build bridges but they're -- 21 they're in the steel business so I just carried on 22 conversation and -- about the hard work and the type of - 23 - because there was some comment about well, maybe we'll 24 go down and blow up the bridge. 25 You know, I -- you don't want to do that.
1061 Hey, your father's worked hard on that. We all use the 2 bridge. You know, that -- that sort of small talk. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: It was really, at most times, as 5 stressful as it was at times, myself and Officer Myers 6 sat on the beach or on the bench. 7 And at times there was people who were 8 walking around us, maybe trying to intimidate us a little 9 bit. We really kept our cool and just tried to be 10 friendly and cordial. 11 Q: And this is at the east end of the 12 Park, right? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: Okay. And all right, and this 15 carried on for -- for a while? 16 A: Yeah, for a while, yes. 17 Q: All right and -- 18 A: Time wise, an hour, hour and a half. 19 Q: Okay. So we're now looking at 20 something north of 6:00 in the evening? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And what happened -- what happens 23 next? 24 A: I'm in that area of the bench, right 25 until approximately 19:30 hours, 7:30 in the afternoon.
1071 And Officers Whelan and Officers Japp 2 requested some assistance not too far from the area where 3 we were sitting at the east fence gate separating 4 Matheson Drive and the Provincial Park. 5 Q: All right, and did you attend? 6 A: We attended to the area, yes. 7 Q: And what did you observe? 8 A: There had been a large group of First 9 Nations people gather at this location and there was a 10 young male Native, unknown to me, who was hitting the 11 lock on the locked gate with a tire iron. 12 Officer Whelan tried to get this person to 13 stop and it was through verbal requests. Sergeant 14 Korosec was in the area at this time and he was speaking 15 to Bert Manning, one of the people I had had conversation 16 with at the bench. 17 And Bert Manning was actually trying to 18 convince this group of determined Natives to stop trying 19 to open the gate. 20 Q: And can I just ask you, the gate 21 obviously -- this is the gate at Matheson Drive on the 22 east end of the Park, is that right? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And why was it -- do you know why it 25 was locked?
1081 A: I believe it was always locked. I 2 think it was more of a maintenance gate. It was a big, 3 metal gate. 4 Q: All right, thank you. And carry on. 5 A: Bert Manning failed in his efforts to 6 convince these people to not open the gate. Somebody had 7 produced a set of bolt cutters and the lock was cut. 8 And once the lock was cut, Officers just 9 stood back. The gates came open and the vehicles and 10 people came in. 11 Q: And did you make any efforts at that 12 point of entry, if you will, to -- to arrest the person 13 who had cut open the -- the lock? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Why not? 16 A: We were following the orders of what 17 would happen if the Park was occupied. 18 Q: In your view, did you have reasonable 19 grounds to make an arrest at that point? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what would your grounds have 22 been? 23 A: Mischief. 24 Q: All right. And did you make any 25 efforts to further deter the people from coming into the
1091 Park at that point? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Why not? 4 A: Again following the directions we 5 were given in relationship to Project Maple, if this was 6 to occur, we were just to ensure public peace. 7 Q: So you were to stay on the Park 8 property. You were not going to try to evict, if you 9 will, at that time but you're going to ensure that 10 everyone's safe in the Park? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. And did you have any 13 radio communication capacity and did you radio this event 14 back or did someone in your presence? 15 A: I did have radio communications. I 16 don't recall specifically making any communications 17 myself. I don't recall that. 18 Q: All right. Then what's the next 19 thing -- well, first of all, how many people do you 20 visualize or -- approximately coming into the Park at 21 this time? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: They did -- people came in on foot,
1101 but they also came in in vehicles. It was hard to 2 determine how many people were in these vehicles. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: But there was a number of vehicles 5 that came in. I'd be only guessing if -- on the number. 6 Q: All right. You describe it as a 7 large group or a medium group? 8 A: A large group. 9 Q: All right. And, all right, and then 10 what happens next after the people are -- enter the Park? 11 A: Well, I'd say that until around nine 12 o'clock we co-existed in the Park. We kept -- we kept a 13 very low profile and tried to stay out of the people who 14 occupied the Park's way. 15 They were driving around, honking their 16 horns, hooting and carrying on and we just stayed off the 17 roads, took no action at all. And we just maintained our 18 presence in the Park. 19 Q: And were there still any Park 20 visitors remaining in the Park between 7:30 and 21 approximately 9:00? 22 A: I believe the campers had left but 23 there was still foot -- there was still people that were 24 -- could come into the Park on foot. 25 Q: All right. And what happened to
1111 them? 2 A: If we came across somebody walking 3 then they would have been directed to leave. 4 Q: All right. Fair enough. And what -- 5 what of significance occurs next? 6 A: At some point I end up at the main 7 gate kiosk area of the Park which would be on the west 8 side of the Provincial Park. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: A large group of First Nations people 11 had built a fire beside the Park store. And so I ended 12 up in that location with a number of other officers. 13 While there I observed a number of events 14 take place. Tensions, again. were running very high. 15 Q: What were the nature of the events 16 that took place? 17 A: Well, when I first got there, there 18 was a lot of drinking going on. There was a lot of -- of 19 verbal assaults, maybe I could put it -- some accusations 20 and name calling. 21 I observed flares being thrown at us and 22 in our general direction. 23 Q: And can you just pause and tell me 24 what -- describe the type of flares that were being 25 thrown in your direction?
1121 A: The flares were -- there was -- they 2 were small very bright white light which indicate to me 3 they were very hot. Their burn time wasn't tremendously 4 long. 5 Q: All right. And did any hit any 6 officers at this time? 7 A: My recollection is that one did 8 bounce off the chest area of an officer. 9 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 10 A: Again we were just trying to keep a 11 bad situation from getting worse. Myself at that time, I 12 had actually kind of stepped back a little bit into the - 13 - I'm going to say into the darkness. 14 Because it was a very uneasy situation at 15 the time. There wasn't a lot of light. There was some 16 light. I believe there was a light on the kiosk. But 17 the situation was getting very tense. So I stepped back 18 so I could have a little better of an overview of what 19 was taking place at the epicentre of it. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So that's what I did. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: The next thing of significance was 24 Judas George appeared from -- it seemed like out of 25 nowhere, screaming, went to the cruiser that was parked
1131 there, ordered us off the land and then knocked the back 2 window out of the cruiser. 3 And then he told us how much time we had 4 to get out of the Park. 5 Q: All right. And just stepping back 6 for a moment, how far away were you from -- from Roderick 7 George when he uttered these things and struck the 8 cruiser window? 9 A: Ten (10) to fifteen (15) metres. 10 Q: And do you recall what side of the -- 11 the car -- cruiser you were on? 12 A: I was -- I was on the east side of 13 the vehicle. 14 Q: And Mr. George, what side was he on? 15 A: We -- from my recollection he came in 16 from behind us. I did -- I wasn't sure where he came 17 from. Like I said, he seemed to appear to me out of the 18 -- out of the shadows. 19 So he would have came from -- my 20 recollection, from the east heading to the car. 21 Q: All right. And do you recall the 22 object he used to strike the cruiser window? 23 A: My recollection is it was a big piece 24 of wood. 25 Q: And what happened at that point after
1141 he -- he told you to get off his land and gave you a time 2 to do so? 3 A: Sergeant Korosec, who was present at 4 the time, intervened and tried to get him to settle down 5 so they could talk. And it was -- it was -- it was 6 pretty tense at that time. 7 Q: Okay. And was Sergeant Korosec 8 successful in your view in defusing the situation, 9 ultimately? 10 A: I would say so because it didn't 11 escalate any further. It could have but tensions were 12 very high. I had the feeling we were somewhat being 13 surrounded at that time and the end result was we were -- 14 Sergeant Korosec said, We're leaving and we -- and we 15 left. 16 Q: And was that consistent with your 17 understanding of the police -- the police plan, 18 contingency plan that you would leave? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: On what basis? 21 A: Well, the situation was getting -- 22 like I said it was getting quite volatile and now there 23 was risk of injury to the protestor -- I don't know if 24 you want to call them protestors, the occupiers and to 25 the police and the most prudent thing to do at that time
1151 was to withdraw and that's what we did. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And when you withdrew, where did you 7 go? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: I -- we attended the Pinery 12 bunkhouse. 13 Q: Okay. And if you look at page -- Tab 14 13 of your brief Exhibit P-1393, this is the statement 15 that -- that you gave that we reviewed a minute ago and 16 on page 2 starting on the second paragraph and over to 17 the third page is that an accurate summary of your 18 recollection of the events of the occupation of the Park 19 and the incident with -- with Mr. George? 20 A: It would accurately reflect the high 21 points, yes. 22 Q: Thank you. All right. Now, if we go 23 back -- you indicated you went back to the Pinery Park. 24 Were -- did you receive any type of 25 briefing or debriefing with respect to the events of that
1161 evening? 2 A: I don't recall a debriefing at that 3 time but at 01:00 we attended Forest and we had a 4 briefing. 5 Q: Okay. And this is found at page 91 6 of your notes at Tab 6 Exhibit P-1387 01:00. This would 7 now be September the 5th technically and it records: 8 "Briefing Operation Maple. Attended 9 TOC." 10 Where was the -- where was the -- I'm 11 sorry. First of all can you tell us where was the 12 briefing? 13 A: I believe the briefing was in Forest. 14 Q: At the Command Post or at the 15 detachment? 16 A: I believe the detachment. 17 Q: All right. And what was the nature 18 of your briefing? What did you learn? 19 A: Just where we were going from there. 20 Q: And where were you going? What was 21 your -- your role? 22 A: We were going to maintain patrols for 23 public safety, ensure the safe movement of people in and 24 out of the area. 25 Q: Any directions with respect to
1171 whether the patrols would be conducted within the Park? 2 A: We would no longer ever go into that 3 Park. We were not to go in the Park under any 4 circumstances. 5 Q: And do you recall who gave this 6 briefing or who led it? 7 A: I do not recall. 8 Q: All right. All right. And then what 9 was your -- sorry, was there any discussion at this time 10 with respect to the rules of engagement, if you will, as 11 between police officers and the occupiers over the -- as 12 a result of the occupation? 13 A: As far as rules of engagement we 14 weren't going to engage with anybody, we were going to 15 just maintain our patrols in the public access areas and 16 if that -- no, that was our -- that was our role. 17 Q: All right. And what was your -- your 18 next assignment that -- that evening? 19 A: I attended the -- the TOC which is 20 the Tactical Operations Centre and helped set that site 21 up. 22 Q: Where was that located? 23 A: On East Parkway Drive west of the 24 intersection of -- of Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 25 Q: And was that in an MNR parking lot?
1181 A: It was in a -- it was in a parking 2 lot, yes. 3 Q: All right. And what was the -- your 4 role in setting up the -- the TOC? 5 A: A couple of vehicles were brought 6 into place. You know, make sure they were set in the 7 parking lot -- 8 Q: So the -- 9 A: -- that much. 10 Q: -- set up of equipment, essentially? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. And I understand that 13 this task took from 1:00 in the morning 'til about 9:00 14 in the morning? 15 A: I don't believe it took that long. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: But in that course of time or in that 18 period of time, the thing of significance was I helped 19 set up the TOC. 20 Q: Fair enough. And then did you return 21 to Forest for a further briefing at about 9:00 in the 22 morning? 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: And what was the -- what did you 25 learn during the course of this briefing?
1191 A: I don't recall the specifics of the 2 briefing, but it would just bring us up to date on the 3 events leading up to that time. 4 Q: All right. And I understand you went 5 off duty at 10:30 in the morning? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: How long was your shift? 8 A: On that day? 9 Q: Yeah. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I start at 1:00 in the afternoon the 14 day before, finish at 10:30 the following morning. 15 Q: And is that an average or normal 16 shift for you? 17 A: When we were working there? 18 Q: No, just -- 19 A: Or normally? 20 Q: As an -- yes. 21 A: No, it's not normal. It's much 22 longer than normal. 23 Q: Okay, fair enough. And you went back 24 to the Pinery then to -- to get some sleep. 25 A: That's correct.
1201 Q: And when did you return then to duty 2 on September the 5th? 3 A: Went off duty at 10:30, was back on 4 duty at six o'clock that night. 5 Q: Okay. And what was your assignment 6 that night? 7 A: First we went to Forest Detachment 8 then I was assigned to the Command Post. 9 Q: What was your function at the Command 10 Post? 11 A: To assist the Incident Commander that 12 was work -- running the Command Post that night. 13 Q: And was that Inspector Linton? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: Did you also play any role with 16 respect to the communications at the Command Post? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what was your role? 19 A: My role was to pass on or gather 20 information at the direction of the Incident Commander. 21 Q: All right. Through the telephone? 22 A: With telephones, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And -- and radio 24 communications as well? 25 A: I believe so, yes.
1211 Q: And were you also designated as a -- 2 as a second in command? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And with respect to what? 5 A: It was in respect to our ERT team at 6 the time. 7 Q: Okay. So your team leader is still 8 Sergeant Korosec and you're now the second in command, 9 no? 10 A: No. The team set up is Stan Korosec 11 was the team leader which was -- he's referred to as Lima 12 1. Sergeant Rob Graham would have been the 2 i/c of that 13 team. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: But due to other duties assigned, 16 Sergeant Korosec, I was put into that role. 17 Q: Into Officer Graham's role? 18 A: In the Command Post, it's normally 19 Lima 1, so I would -- I was given the title that night as 20 Lima 1. 21 Q: Okay, thank you. 22 A: As Sergeant Graham was still active. 23 Q: Okay. And who was Lima 2 that night? 24 A: I would say it was Sergeant Graham. 25 Q: Okay, fair enough. And where was he?
1221 A: I believe he was doing patrols. 2 Q: Okay, thank you. And can you just... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Just to refresh your memory, do you 7 recall whether or not what site Lima 2 was? 8 A: What site? 9 Q: What was the site of Lima 2? You've 10 described Lima 1 as yourself at the Command Post. 11 A: Normally Lima 2 would be at the TOC. 12 Q: Okay, thank you. All right, and how 13 -- how long did you remain at the Command Post in the 14 position of Lima 1? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: I remained in the Command Post until 19 07:00 hours the following morning. 20 Q: And can you give us your general 21 recollection -- sorry, let me ask you this: Where were 22 you physically posit --located within the Command Post? 23 A: The -- the Command Post was set up at 24 Forest Detachment parking lot. We're inside the actual 25 Command Post.
1231 Q: Okay. No that's what I -- yes. Was 2 it divided with offices within the trailer? 3 A: I was in the main body of the 4 trailer. Just like an office really. 5 Q: With the Inspector then? 6 A: That's correct. And a scribe. 7 Q: And the scribe. And I was going to 8 ask you, to your knowledge what was the function of the 9 scribe? 10 A: The scribe was to take notes for the 11 Incident Commander. 12 Q: Okay. And -- and your role was to 13 take the communications? 14 A: Partly yes. 15 Q: And did you have any major role that 16 night? 17 A: No. 18 Q: All right. Can you give us your 19 general recollection of the communications you received? 20 A: There was a -- there were several 21 things that occurred during that night that I responded 22 to through the directions of the Incident Commander. 23 There was an incident involving some 24 damage, rock throwing at cruisers. 25 Q: Okay. Yes. Just give us a general
1241 list. 2 A: Okay. So that was one (1) of the 3 incidents. Another one (1) I received a report from one 4 of the officers on patrol, Larry Parks, reporting gunfire 5 coming from the base. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I believe he reported that he heard a 8 hundred -- or five -- fifty (50) to a hundred (100) 9 rounds being fired. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: So there was some conversation on -- 12 to clarify a few points surrounding that issue. 13 Q: Okay. And do you recall having a 14 conversation with H. H. Graham? 15 A: Yes, I do. There was some 16 information that was required as far as a vehicle moving 17 -- vehicles moving in and out of the area. So there was 18 conversations that I carried on on behalf of the 19 Inspector who gathered that information. 20 Q: And were all of the calls that you 21 either initiated or received at the Command Post that 22 night, taped to your knowledge? 23 A: I believe so. 24 Q: All right. And is that -- was that 25 standard protocol?
1251 A: I was under the understanding, yes. 2 Q: Did you know that they were being 3 taped? 4 A: I believe so. 5 Q: All right. I wonder if we could move 6 to the audio portion. And if you'd look at Tab 15, 7 please. It's identified as Region 1 and there's -- 8 reflects a transcript of a communication at 19:55 hours 9 on September the 5th, 1995. 10 And, Sergeant, Staff Sergeant I'm going to 11 put a number of audio communications to you and the 12 transcripts are in this brief. 13 Did you have an opportunity to hear the 14 -- these audios in advance of today? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And an opportunity to review the 17 transcripts in your brief before today? 18 A: Yes, I have. 19 Q: All right. Thank you. What I'd like 20 to do is play the first audio then and then I'm going to 21 ask you some questions about this first communication 22 including whether you can identify the voices. So 23 perhaps you could track if you will, of the voices as 24 best you can. Okay? 25
1261 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 [WJ = Constable Wayde Jacklin] 4 [JS = Sergeant John Slack] 5 [PJ = Constable Peter Japp] 6 [UKM = Unknown Male] 7 8 WJ: Forest Command Post. 9 PJ: Stan Korosec. 10 Sound of phone hanging up 11 WJ: Stan. 12 WJ: Is this George? 13 PJ: This is Japper. I'm just calling on the 14 other C-phone. 15 WJ: Okay. 16 PJ: Trying to see if I can get through to you. 17 WJ: George, it's Wayde. George? 18 PJ: It's not George. It's Japper. 19 PJ: It's Japper. 20 WJ: Oh, Peter, what are you doing? 21 PJ: I'll let you talk to him. 22 Sound of phone hanging up 23 PJ: I'm just - hello? 24 WJ: Yeah. 25 PJ: I'm just trying to get this phone - we've
1271 got the other C-phone that you guys sent up. They've got 2 two C-phones here. We're not sure whether it was - we 3 were calling the right number. 4 WJ: Okay. So you got the problem resolved, 5 right? 6 PJ: Hold on and I'll give you - do you want to 7 hold on, talk to him? 8 WJ: Is Rob Graham there? 9 PJ: No. He's been and gone. 10 WJ: Okay. How about - is Slack there? John 11 Slack. 12 PJ: Yeah. 13 WJ: Okay. 14 JS: John Slack. 15 WJ: Yeah. John, it's Wayde Jacklin. 16 JS: How are you doing? 17 WJ: Good. Could you have, you know, Rob or 18 somebody go down and check, when they get 19 a chance tonight, down at the end of - by 20 checkpoint ... let me just see here. At 21 the end of Ipperwash Road, you know where 22 it goes down to the beach? 23 JS: Yes. 24 WJ: There's normally a chain that goes across. 25 There's poles and also a chain that they
1281 remove to allow ambulances and that sort 2 of thing onto the beach. 3 JS: Yeah, yeah. 4 WJ: As you head to the east. 5 JS: Yeah. 6 WJ: Just to check to see if the - apparently 7 those chains are down or have been 8 removed. So there's a possibility they 9 could be driving from Kettle Point using 10 the beach and actually getting all the way 11 to Stoney Point. So if they could check 12 to see if the chains are down, if there's 13 actually a possibility they're using it as 14 a means of access to Camp Ipperwash. 15 JS: Okay. I'll have ... inaudible ... 16 WJ: Maybe they can check them and give us some 17 suggestion what we can do as far as ... 18 inaudible. 19 Phone noise 20 JS: I have the 3 District phone, which is 372. 21 WJ: 8910. 22 JS: 8910. 23 WJ: Okay. 24 JS: Okay. And that's the one I have. And I 25 have, I guess, the 1 District phone.
1291 WJ: And what number's that? 2 JS: (To someone else: "What number is this 3 one?) 4 WJ: Is that ... inaudible ... 671? 5 JS: We'll have to check and find out what 6 number it is. 7 WJ: Okay. I've got the 372 number up here. 8 JS: That's the one we have ... inaudible 9 Phone fades 10 Unknown: Hello? 11 Phone noise. End of conversation 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: All right. That's the -- the tape 17 recording. Now, first of all, where you have been 18 identified in the transcript as WJ, do you agree that 19 that was your voice? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you recognize PJ as Peter 22 Japp? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And later on, JS as John Slack? 25 A: No.
1301 Q: Now just at the very outset, there's 2 three (3) references to unknown males. Can you -- did 3 you recognize those -- the initial voices at the top of 4 the transcript, the Forest Command post. 5 A: I believe it was me. 6 Q: Yes, you're answering? All right. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Thank you. So perhaps we could just 9 correct the transcript where it's "ukm" for unknown male. 10 That's Wade Jacklin, the first three (3) entries of ukm 11 and late on in the page, ukm "It's Japper". 12 Did you recognize that voice? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Is that -- who was that? 15 A: That's Peter Japp. 16 Q: Okay. Can we correct the transcript 17 then to Peter Japp instead of ukm and again you've -- the 18 next trans -- the line ukm: 19 "I'll let you talk to him". 20 Do you remember who that was? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: All right, thank you. That's fine. 25 And who -- did you receive instructions to -- to
1311 communicate the request that Rob Graham or someone else 2 go down to the end of a checkpost -- point to make 3 certain observations? 4 A: Yes, I would have received those 5 directions from Inspector Linton. 6 Q: All right. And just very generally, 7 what was the concern as you understood it? 8 A: He just wanted to know if -- what the 9 condition of that road was, what the purpose behind it 10 was. I -- I'm not sure. 11 Q: Okay. Fair enough, and just for at 12 this time, we are going to have a -- a CD with a number 13 of transmissions and we will make that the next exhibit, 14 please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1394 reserved. Oh, you 16 have it, very good. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1394: Jacklin Audio. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: All right and -- and then as has been 22 our habit, I'd like to make the transcript of this 23 particular phone call of September 5, 1995 at 19:55 the 24 next exhibit, please. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1395.
1321 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1395: Transcript of Region 01, 2 Wayde Jacklin - John Slack - 3 Peter Japp, Unknown Male, 4 September 05, 1995, 19:55 5 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, 6 Logger tape number 2, Track 7 1, Disc 1 of 3. 8 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: And if we would -- if you would next 13 go to the next recording reflected at Tab 16. This is a 14 region 4 call at 20:04, September 5, 1995 and if we could 15 have that played and you could follow along the 16 transcript again, please. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 [WJ = Constable Wayde Jacklin] 20 [HHG = H.H. Graham Patrol Boat, Constable Norm McLeod] 21 22 HHG: Hello. 23 WJ: Hello. Is this the H.H. Graham? 24 HHG: Yes, it is. 25 WJ: Yeah. It's Wayde Jacklin in the Command
1331 Post. 2 HHG: Yes. 3 WJ: Do you guys know where Ipperwash Road runs 4 into the beach? 5 HHG: Yeah. That's where we are right now. 6 WJ: Okay. How far from shore are you guys? 7 HHG: To someone else: "How far offshore are 8 we, Randy?" 9 To WJ: Little more than a quarter mile. 10 WJ: Okay. If you - could you just let us know 11 - you can phone us back here at the 12 Command Post - if you - if you see any 13 vehicles moving along the beach. 14 HHG: Okay. 15 WJ: From the - from the west going east. 16 Apparently at the end of Ipperwash Road, 17 there's normally, you know, there's wooden 18 barriers plus chains. 19 HHG: Yeah. 20 WJ: That blocks off the beach. 21 HHG: Yeah. 22 WJ: Well, apparently the chains have been 23 removed out of there. So there's the 24 possibility that traffic could be moving 25 along the beach.
1341 HHG: Okay. We're four-tenths of a mile 2 offshore. 3 WJ: Okay. You - 4 HHG: There were a couple cars went along the 5 beach on the - 6 WJ: They'll travel - 7 HHG: - on the east end - east end of the park. 8 WJ: Right. 9 HHG: I haven't seen anybody, anything on the 10 west end, other than I saw a couple of 11 people walking down there. 12 WJ: Okay. Like you know when it's dark or 13 whatnot, you'll be able to tell if there's 14 any lights or whatever running down the 15 beach anyway. 16 HHG: Oh, yeah. 17 WJ: But they'll - you know, there's a 18 possibility they could be driving between 19 Kettle Point and Ipperwash along the beach 20 with the chains being down in that area. 21 HHG: Yeah. Okay. 22 WJ: So if you see anything. Do you have the 23 cell phone number for the TOC? 24 HHG: No. 25 WJ: I can give you a number.
1351 HHG: Hang on a sec. Okay. Go ahead. 2 WJ: 372-8910. 3 HHG: 89 - and what's that for? 4 WJ: That's our Tactical Operations Centre, 5 which is on the - which is the MNR big 6 parking lot down - or you can call me. 7 HHG: Okay. That's area code 519, eh? 8 WJ: Yeah. 9 Radio in Background: "Sergeant Graham, do you read?" 10 HHG: Okay. 11 WJ: But don't put it over the air if you see 12 any vehicles. 13 HHG: No. 14 WJ: We just want to know if any vehicles are 15 moving down. 16 HHG: Okay. 17 WJ: Along that beach during the night. 18 HHG: Yeah. No, we - 19 WJ: Normally there isn't any, but if they're 20 running between the camp and whatnot, 21 there could be. 22 HHG: Okay. But you're not - you're not really 23 concerned too much about the east end, eh? 24 WJ: Oh, no, no. If they're running along the 25 beach and whatnot by the - in front of the
1361 camp? 2 HHG: By the sand dunes - 3 WJ: No, no. 4 HHG: - in the army camp. 5 WJ: No. That's no problem there. 6 HHG: Okay. Because there's cars going down 7 there right now. 8 WJ: Yeah, it's just west. Oh, no, there's all 9 kinds you'll having running along there, 10 but no. Ipperwash Road. 11 HHG: Yeah. 12 WJ: Which is, of course, west of that which is 13 even west of the park. 14 HHG: Yeah. 15 WJ: By a couple kilometers - in that stretch. 16 Between Kettle Point and the Ipperwash. 17 If you have any vehicles moving all the 18 way along the beach. 19 HHG: Okay. 20 WJ: From down by Kettle Point, all the way 21 down to Ipperwash Park, that - that could 22 be a concern. 23 HHG: You want us to patrol - patrol all the way 24 down to Kettle Point, then? 25 WJ: No, no.
1371 HHG: We've been staying right off the park. 2 WJ: Yeah, that's fine. 3 HHG: Okay. 4 WJ: Yeah. 5 HHG: All right. No, that's good. We'll let 6 you know if we see anything. 7 WJ: Okay. Thanks a lot. 8 HHG: All right. 9 WJ: Thanks. 10 HHG: Okay. 11 WJ: Thanks a lot. 12 13 End of conversation 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Okay. Thank you. That's the end of 19 that transmission. And I take it you were directed by 20 Inspector Linton to call the H.H. Graham? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And the concern that's reflected in 23 this conversation was to try to monitor if there's any 24 increased traffic from Kettle Point into the beach or 25 sorry, into the -- the Park or Camp via the beach?
1381 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Okay. And were you familiar with the 3 voice of the person you were speaking to? 4 A: I did not know those officers. 5 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And was it your 6 understanding that the function of -- of -- what was the 7 function of the H. H. Graham to your knowledge? 8 A: An observation post. 9 Q: Okay. Thank you. I'd like to make 10 this the next exhibit, at least the transcript. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1396, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1396: Transcript of Region 04, 14 Wayde Jacklin - H.H. Graham 15 (Norm McLeod) September 05, 16 1995, 20:04 hrs, Mobile 17 Command Unit, OPP logger tape 18 number 2, Track 3, Disc 1 of 19 3. 20 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And just for 22 clarification the audio is part of the CD that is Exhibit 23 P-1394. 24 25
1391 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: All right. Perhaps we could go -- I 7 know we're getting close to the lunch hour but just to 8 finish this off could we play the next transmission 9 please, Tab 17 of your -- of your binder. It's a 10 conversation recorded at 20:15 hours September the 5th. 11 And again I'd ask you to follow along and there'll be 12 some questions. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 15 [WJ = Constable Wayde Jacklin] 16 [JS = Sergeant John Slack] 17 [UKM = Unknown Male] 18 19 UKM: Forest Ipperwash Command. 20 JS: Yeah. It's John Slack. 21 UKM: Yes, John. 22 JS: That - at the end of Ipperwash Road - 23 UKM: Hm-mmm. 24 JS: - and the beach, they are using that. We 25 should probably establish a checkpoint at
1401 the paved road where it goes into the sand 2 beach area. 3 UKM: Okay. Do you want to talk to Wade? 4 JS: Sure. 5 UKM: Okay. Hold on. 6 WJ: John. 7 JS: Yeah. 8 WJ: Yes. 9 JS: Yeah. They checked that Ipperwash - end 10 of Ipperwash Road there. They are getting 11 onto the beach. 12 WJ: Oh, they are, are they? 13 JS: The chain is down. It looks like they're 14 using - they're coming along the paved 15 road and then turning north onto the 16 beach. 17 WJ: Yeah. 18 JS: And then going along the beach there. 19 WJ: Okay. 20 JS: So. 21 WJ: Okay. 22 JS: So I think we should maybe establish a 23 checkpoint at the top of that road there 24 at the pavement. 25 WJ: Okay. Inspector Linton's here. Want me
1411 to pass that by him or? 2 JS: Yeah, if you want. 3 WJ: Okay. 4 JS: I'm just going to have - Graham's going to 5 come back here and I'll discuss it with 6 him. 7 WJ: Okay. 8 JS: See what they think. 9 WJ: I spoke to the H.H. Graham as well. 10 JS: Okay. 11 WJ: They were going to let us know if there 12 was any traffic moving along the beach in 13 that area. 14 JS: Okay. 15 WJ: He said there hasn't been any moving, only 16 in front of the camp which we know about 17 so. 18 JS: Yeah. 19 WJ: Do you want to speak to him here? 20 JS: No, that's all right. You just - 21 WJ: I'll - I'll just pass it by him. 22 JS: Yeah. And get back to me. 23 WJ: Okay. 24 JS: Okay. 25 WJ: Okay, John.
1421 JS: Right. Bye. 2 3 End of conversation 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: All right. And just very quickly did 9 you recognize the -- the initial voice identified as 10 U.K.M.? 11 A: No, I did not. 12 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And essentially 13 you were receiving a report from John Slack that indeed 14 there is vehicle traffic entering the beach from 15 Ipperwash Road and travelling towards the -- and into the 16 Army Camp area and the Park area? 17 Or is that your recollection of this 18 call? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes, he's got "then turning north on 23 the beach." I -- the beach in my opinion runs east and 24 west but -- so I'm not sure what he meant there so I 25 don't have any recollection what -- what he means by
1431 north. 2 Q: Okay. But Ipperwash Road, does it 3 end up at the beach? 4 A: Ipperwash Road does end at the beach. 5 Q: All right. And then -- did -- did 6 you understand that cars were then -- or vehicles were 7 travelling towards the Park along the beach? 8 A: I believe so. 9 Q: And you made a -- a recommendation 10 with respect to establishing a checkpoint as a result? 11 A: He does refer to establishing a 12 checkpoint. 13 Q: And would you have relayed that to 14 Inspector Linton for his consideration? 15 A: I would. 16 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 17 -- the next exhibit please. The transcript that is at 18 20:15 hours September 5th. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1397, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1397: Transcript of Region 02, 22 Wayde Jacklin - John Slack, 23 September 05, 1995, 20:15 24 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, OPP 25 Logger tape number 2, Track
1441 1, Disc 1 of 3. 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. And at this 4 time perhaps we can break for lunch, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 6 fine. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 9 adjourned until 1:06 p.m. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 12:06 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 1:07 p.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed. Please be seated. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Yes, thank you. Just before the 20 lunch break we were reviewing some audio transmissions 21 from the evening of September the 5th and I'd like you to 22 turn next to Tab 22 of your brief Exhibit P-426, excerpts 23 from the scribe notes. 24 And page 44 there's a reference to a 25 meeting at 21:06 comprised of Sergeant Cousineau, Kent
1451 Skinner, Inspector Linton, Mark Dew, Steve Reid, and 2 yourself. 3 And do you recall having this -- this 4 meeting at about 9:00 p.m. on September the 5th? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: I don't remember any specifics of 9 that meeting but that was the night I was in the CP. 10 Q: The Command Post? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And any reason to dispute the 13 accuracy of this scribe note? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. And the meeting appears 16 to conclude at 21:33? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. And the one (1) reference 19 that particularly concerns you is on page 44: 20 "Wayde Jacklin have four (4) arrest 21 warrants for persons. No concerns by 22 anyone." 23 Do you have any recollection as to what 24 this referenced? 25 A: No, I do not.
1461 Q: All right. If you go -- you're on 2 this tab but if you turn to the next page, page 46, in 3 the 24:43 entry you're noted as having reported a couple 4 of cruiser windshields smashed from 2412 which is at 5 Checkpoint 'B'. It sounds like rocks being thrown at 6 them. You're going to try to confirm with Lima 2 and Rob 7 Graham is going to go to their location. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A: Yes, I do. 10 Q: All right. Can you just tell us what 11 your recollection is surrounding this event? 12 A: Pretty much as it's stated there. 13 Q: All right. And you also had a 14 conversation a few minutes later reporting on a 15 conversation you had with Neil Whelan who confirmed that 16 rocks were being thrown at the cruisers? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. And did you speak with -- 19 with Officer Graham in relation to the -- the issue of -- 20 of rocks being thrown and vehicle traffic after this 21 meeting? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: And if you look at Tab 18, a 24 transcript of a communication. This one is with not Rob 25 Graham but the H. H. Graham patrol. It's a rather
1471 lengthy transmission. It's at 22:16 or 10:16 p.m. so it 2 would have -- in any event do you recall the content of 3 this conversation? 4 I know you indicated that you had already 5 listened to it. I wonder if you could just summarize 6 what -- what the essence of this conversation is that you 7 had with the H. H. Graham? 8 A: There was -- I spoke to the H. H. 9 Graham. There was -- I haven't had a chance to read this 10 over again right -- right now, but my recollection was 11 that they were observing a number of lights and vehicles 12 and whatnot being moved around. 13 And that their location had been 14 illuminated with some spotlights. 15 Q: Yes. All right. And did you report 16 that -- that activity back to Inspector Linton or someone 17 at the Command Post? 18 A: He would have been in the Command 19 Post with me. 20 Q: Okay. So he would have -- 21 A: So he'd be aware of it. 22 Q: Would he be actually hearing this? 23 A: I believe so. 24 Q: Okay. All right. And then you have 25 a conversation with John Slack. This is -- oh, I'm
1481 sorry, yes quite right. Could we please mark the 2 transcript September 5, 1995 at 22:16 hours as the next 3 exhibit please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1398, Your Honour. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1398: Transcript of Region 05, 8 Wayde Jacklin - H. H. Graham 9 (Norm McLeod and Randy Burch) 10 September 05, 1995, 22:16 11 hrs, Mobile Command Unite, 12 OPP Logger tape number 2, 13 Track 3, Disc 1 of 3. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: In any event there's a further 17 conversation at 22:44 and I believe this is an insert, it 18 may be loose in your binder. At the front of your binder 19 possibly. Yes, 22:44 hours. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I have it. 24 Q: Okay, good, thank you. And do you 25 recall having this conversation with John Slack?
1491 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: And I'd like to take -- take a moment 3 and play this -- this particular audio if we might 4 please. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 7 8 [WJ = Constable Wayde Jacklin] 9 [JS = Sergeant John Slack] 10 11 WJ: Sounds like it. 12 Unknown: ... inaudible 13 WJ: They said they were going to back them 14 off. 15 Phone rings 16 WJ: Rob - I heard Rob saying earlier to back 17 off out of there. 18 Phone rings 19 WJ: I'm actually getting it to ring. 20 Phone rings 21 JS: John Slack. 22 WJ: John, it's Wayde Jacklin here. 23 JS: Hm-mmm. 24 WJ: Who's getting hit by the rocks? 25 JS: It's right at the corner of Army Camp Road
1501 and East Parkway. 2 [JS and WJ speak at the same time - unintelligible.] 3 WJ: Okay. 4 JS: That parking lot in there, they've got a 5 couple of fires going down there, and 6 they've got some picnic tables out there. 7 Cars are getting hit on the windshields 8 with rocks. 9 WJ: Okay. 10 JS: ... inaudible ... backed off. I told - 11 WJ: Is that where Alpha is? Or Bravo? 12 JS: No. It's right at the corner. 13 WJ: Yeah. I know it's right at the corner. 14 JS: Yeah. We got nobody - we don't have a 15 checkpoint there per se. 16 WJ: Well, who's - okay. 17 JS: ... inaudible ... 18 WJ: Okay. Neil Whelan's car was getting hit, 19 was it? 20 JS: Yeah. We had some people go down there to 21 check out - 22 WJ: Oh. Okay. 23 JS: ? what was going on. 24 WJ: All right. 25 JS: So they got pelted. So they're out of
1511 there now. 2 WJ: Okay. 3 JS: So we've got some broken windshields, but 4 that's no big deal. 5 WJ: Well, I heard two cars. That's why I 6 couldn't figure out what was going on. 7 Because 24-12, which is Whelan, he was 8 supposed to be in Bravo. So where's Bravo 9 normally sitting? Are - just to confirm 10 here. 11 JS: Well, Bravo right now is the security on 12 the ... 13 WJ: TOC? 14 JS: On the TOC. 15 WJ: Okay. 16 JS: So they just went down there to back up 17 one of the floater cars. 18 WJ: And Alpha, how far is it from the corner? 19 JS: Well, they're right by the Command Post 20 basically, that Alpha Checkpoint. 21 WJ: So the two checkpoints are pretty close 22 together? 23 JS: The Alpha Checkpoint is on the road, and 24 the Bravo Checkpoint is - 25 WJ: Is right in the lot.
1521 JS: - is right in the lot. 2 WJ: All right. Okay. And did I hear 24-13 3 getting hit, too? Was that - 4 JS: There's 3 cars got some damage. 5 WJ: Okay. The Inspector's here. We're just 6 trying, you know, to figure out what was 7 going on because I knew that one 8 checkpoint wasn't at that corner anymore. 9 Well, it hadn't been last night. 10 JS: No. 11 WJ: Why they'd be getting hit there with 12 rocks. 13 JS: No. They just went down there to check 14 out - 15 WJ: Okay. 16 JS: - all the gathering and they got pelted 17 so. 18 WJ: So they've moved out of there now, have 19 they? 20 JS: Yeah. 21 WJ: Okay. Okay. I finally got through on 22 this line. 23 JS: Yeah. 24 WJ: You got the 1 District phone going now? 25 Because -
1531 JS: No. This is the - you're talking to me 2 on the 6 - or the 3 District phone. 3 WJ: The 3721. 4 JS: Yeah. 5 WJ: Okay. 6 JS: Okay? 7 WJ: All right. 8 JS: Okay. 9 WJ: Yeah. 10 Unknown: Who are you talking to? 11 WJ: [to Unknown: John.] 12 Unknown: Who? 13 WJ: [to Unknown: John.] 14 15 End of conversation 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: All right. Now I just want to note 21 for the record, this is a telephone call so it's noted 22 here at 22:44 but in fact we -- we should add on 23 approximately seven (7) minutes to this particular call. 24 And did you recognize your voice on -- on 25 this phone --
1541 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: Okay. Let's make this transcript the 3 next exhibit please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1399, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1399: Transcript of Region 10, 7 Wayde Jacklin - John Slack, 8 September 05, 1995, 22:44 9 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, OPP 10 Logger tape number 2, Track 11 3, Disc 1 of 3. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: And based on this, you were obviously 15 get -- inquiring with respect to the information about 16 cruisers being hit with rocks? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And at this point, I gather that 19 Checkpoint Bravo which at one time was closer to the 20 sandy parking lot is now pulled back to the road just 21 outside of the TOC? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And Checkpoint Alpha is, in fact, 24 inside the -- the parking lot or at the TOC? 25
1551 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: According to the recollection here or 4 the transcript here, the Alpha checkpoint is on the road 5 and the Bravo checkpoint is in the lot. 6 Q: Yeah, Alpha checkpoint is in the lot. 7 Yeah, okay, thank you. 8 A: It's -- I'm not sure. It's here -- 9 the conversation is that Alpha checkpoint is on the road 10 and the Bravo checkpoint is in the lot. 11 There does seem to be a little confusion 12 on -- and that's at the top of page 3. 13 Q: Okay. Yes, thank you, I reversed 14 that. Okay, thank you. 15 And then you had a further conversation at 16 Tab 19. And this is at 22:49 and it's marked as Exhibit 17 P-1372. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And this one also is a telephone 22 call. And with all the telephone calls from Command 23 Post, we're adding seven (7) minutes to it. But I'm 24 reading the time that is listed on the transcript for 25 identification purposes.
1561 In any event, I understand you had an 2 opportunity to review this particular audio and 3 transcript in advance of today? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And this is a further con -- this is 6 a conversation between yourself and -- and Rob Graham and 7 you're making further inquiries with respect to the cars 8 being damaged? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: In particular, he provides you a 11 report with respect to the circumstances that gave rise 12 to cruisers being damaged, and can you just recollect 13 what that part of the conversation was? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: This -- the officers that attended 18 the sandy parking lot area, there's been some fires, some 19 picnic tables in that area and the officers went down 20 there and were in the process of trying to push some of 21 those barricades out of the way. 22 And at that time they come -- they came 23 under a fairly heavy barrage of good size or larger 24 rocks. 25 Q: Yes.
1571 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: And there was some conversation a -- 5 further about the rock throwing, where they were coming 6 from and what the current status was. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Of the vehicles. 9 Q: And there's further discussion at 10 page 4 with respect to the locations of Alpha and Bravo, 11 and Bravo is in the parking lot and Alpha is on East 12 Parkway Drive just outside of the TOC? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And then on page 7 -- 5, sorry, 15 there's also discussion about where Checkpoint Charlie 16 is? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: It said it's back at the trailer 19 park. Do you recall the -- which trailer park that was? 20 A: Sunnyside Trailer Park. 21 Q: Okay. And Delta is where? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I don't recall where Delta was.
1581 Q: All right. Now if you go over to 2 page there's a discussion with respect to night vision 3 and what night vision you have at the Command Post. 4 Maybe you can have a look at that and then 5 advise me what your recollection was on the discussion 6 concerning night village -- vision capabilities. 7 A: Yes, we -- we had some night vision, 8 some old night vision. We were trying to deploy them out 9 to some of the officers just for some better visibility 10 in low light conditions. There was some issue around 11 acquiring the appropriate batteries for those night 12 vision. 13 Q: Okay. And to your knowledge, were 14 the proper batteries acquired, so that all of these units 15 were functioning? 16 A: I don't recall if they were all 17 functioning, but some did go into service. 18 Q: Okay. And just -- can you tell me 19 what the equipment was, just describe it? 20 A: The -- the night vision? 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: They were a military issue, what's -- 23 and I had some familiarity with them. But we called them 24 a II scope; it's an infrared scope. It's fairly large, 25 maybe a foot long, 5 inches across.
1591 Q: All right. And where these like 2 standalone units or do they attach to weapons? 3 A: They were being used to stand alone. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you. And then if you go 5 to Tab 20, is Exhibit P-1154, and the time listed is 6 23:32. This also is a telephone conversation so we have 7 to add seven (7) minutes to it or approximately and this 8 appears to be a conversation with Stan Korosec and 9 yourself at 23:32. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And perhaps you could just have a 12 look at that -- this transcript but it appears that 13 you're passing along Rob Graham's report to Sergeant 14 Korosec; is that right? 15 A: That is part of the conversation, 16 yes. 17 Q: And page 2 of this transcript at the 18 bottom, Stan Korosec says: 19 "I'll have to give Maclean Hunter shit. 20 Okay, we got some rocks thrown at our 21 cruiser." 22 Do you know what the reference to Maclean 23 Hunter was? 24 A: Yes, my recollection is the reason 25 why Stan Korosec called the Command Post is that he was
1601 woken by his pager going off. His pager system at that 2 time was Maclean Hunter. And there was some frustration 3 on the timeliness of the page; that's what prompted the 4 conversation about Maclean Hunter. 5 Q: Okay. But -- okay. And at page 3 6 there's -- there's a particular exchange between yourself 7 and Stan Korosec. You're talking about the damage to the 8 windshields from the rocks and you indicate essentially 9 that the Inspector is aware of the situation and I'll 10 just start reading: 11 "I -- well, I guess somewhere between a 12 rock and a boulder, a pretty good size 13 I guess. 14 STAN KOROSEC: Yeah. Where did this 15 happen? In front of the gate?" 16 You reply: 17 "No, by the -- more towards the main 18 gate of the Provincial Park." 19 Then you carry on: 20 "STAN KOROSEC: Yeah, the main gate. 21 WAYDE JACKLIN: Oh, that's what you 22 were thinking. Oh yeah, okay. 23 STAN KOROSEC: Okay. Well, did the 24 guys go down there for something?" 25 You respond:
1611 "Well, yeah, there was some stuff they 2 put, you know, on the road I guess and 3 there was a fire down there so they 4 went down to check it out and got 5 pelted. 6 STAN KOROSEC: Yeah, they were 7 baited." 8 And how did you interpret that used of 9 that term 'baited'? 10 A: It -- it was a question. It was in 11 the form of a question. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: So my interpretation was were they 14 drawn into that area and -- and as a result got pelted by 15 rocks? 16 A: Okay. So were the police officers 17 lured into the area essentially? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Okay. And: 20 "STAN KOROSEC: Well, live and learn. 21 Live and learn. Their -- their day 22 will fucking come." 23 And when he made that -- that comment to 24 you what was your reaction? 25 A: I -- I didn't have any reaction to
1621 that. 2 Q: Did you have a -- what was your 3 interp -- what was your understanding of what he was 4 saying? 5 A: Stan Korosec had been working like 6 all of us many, many hours. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: I know Stan Korosec. I know his 9 personality. He was tired. He was frustrated and in the 10 course of his frustration he said that. I'm sure he 11 meant nothing by it. 12 Q: Well, I just -- I want to know how 13 you -- I don't want you to speculate about what he was 14 saying or how he was feeling but how did you take it when 15 you received it? 16 A: I didn't take it seriously. 17 Q: And then Stan Korosec says: 18 "I was talking to Mark Wright tonight. 19 We want to amass a fucking army." 20 And when he made that comment to you what 21 -- how did you interpret that as referring to or what -- 22 what -- how did you interpret him -- his reference? 23 A: Again I -- I didn't put any 24 significance on it. It was -- I interpreted it as just 25 out of frustration.
1631 Q: And the next comment by Stan Korosec: 2 "A real fucking army and do this -- do 3 these fuckers big time, but I don't 4 want to talk about it because I'll get 5 all hyped up." 6 Again, what your reaction when he made 7 this statement to you? 8 A: Well, I think you can say I'm -- I'm 9 just listening. I'm being a sounding board for him. I 10 put absolutely no interpretation of any sort of malice 11 coming from Stan. 12 And you can see by the next comment that I 13 made what I'm trying to do is just get him to go back to 14 bed. 15 Q: And you say: 16 "And you won't be able to sleep." 17 And he says: 18 "And I won't be able to sleep. Okay, 19 what time is it? 20 Quarter to 12:00. 21 Okay." 22 And you say, "Back to bed." 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: All right. Did you relay any 25 concerns about Stan Korosec to Inspector Linton or any of
1641 your superiors? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Why not? 4 A: Because I wasn't concerned. 5 Q: All right. Tab 21 please, is Exhibit 6 P-1227 and it is a communication, radio communication at 7 23:46 hours and it's identified as between Lima 1 and 8 Larry Parks. And did you have an opportunity to review 9 this and listen to the audio tape, do you recall? 10 A: I -- I have reviewed it. I don't 11 recall listening to the audio tape but I may have. 12 Q: All right. Well perhaps we could -- 13 because I want you to identify the -- the voices on this. 14 Perhaps we could play this tape please. It's Region 2. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Region 2? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 [Lima 1 = Wayde Jacklin] 23 [LP = Larry Parks] 24 25 Lima 1: 24-14, Lima 1.
1651 LP: Lima 1, 24-14. 2 Lima 1: Yeah. Larry, the weapon fire you're 3 hearing is it - does it sound like a rifle 4 automatic fire? 5 LP: That's 10-4. 6 Lima 1: Is that shotgun, automatic, or 7 semi-automatic. 8 LP: It sounded fully automatic. 9 Lima 1: How many rounds would you figure you 10 heard? 11 LP: 50 to 100 anyhow. It's stopped now. 12 Lima 1: Sound just like one firearm going off? 13 LP: That's 10-4. 14 Lima 1: Yeah. 10-4. 15 16 End of conversation 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Okay. First of all, the voice that's 22 identified throughout this transcript as Lima 1, can -- 23 can you recognize that voice? 24 A: It's my voice. 25 Q: All right. And I'd like the Exhibit
1661 then, P-1227, to reflect in the square bracket a notation 2 that Lima 1 is Wayde Jacklin. 3 And do -- do you recall what -- what this 4 was in reference -- this conversation was in reference 5 to? 6 A: Yes. It was Larry Parks who was out 7 on patrol reporting hearing automatic gunfire coming from 8 inside the Army Camp. 9 Q: All right. And did you hear any 10 gunshots over the course of the radio transmission? 11 A: I did not. 12 Q: Okay. And do you recall what his -- 13 what his role was that night, or what he was doing when 14 he -- what -- what his task was when this went off? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Okay. And did you -- did you tell 17 anyone about this conversation? 18 A: Yes. I spoke to Inspector Linton. I 19 kept him apprised of the conversation. 20 Q: Did you accept Mr. Parks or Officer 21 Parks report uncritically? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you make -- did you have any -- 24 did you express any views with respect to the accuracy of 25 the number of firearms he heard going off?
1671 A: Just to clarify, in my mind what I 2 took of that -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- with my past military and police 5 experience, fifty (50) to a hundred (100) rounds is a lot 6 of rounds to be fired. So I assumed several things. 7 I had no reason to doubt that the accuracy 8 of his information was false. Therefore fifty (50) to a 9 hundred (100) rounds, you would either have to have a 10 weapon that is belt fed or drum fed or there had to have 11 been more than one (1) weapon being fired. 12 Q: Okay, fair enough. And had you 13 received or were you apprised of any -- any other reports 14 of gunshot fire prior to this report, between the 4th and 15 the 5th of September? 16 A: Not that I recall. 17 Q: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And did you have occasion to prepare 22 an Affidavit in respect of the -- the Kenneth Deane 23 appeal? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: If you look at Tab 31, please,
1681 Inquiry Document Number 2005327. If you kindly, quickly 2 look at the document and identify it for us. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I do recognize that document. 7 Q: And on page 4, is that your 8 signature? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: And so this is an Affidavit sworn 11 August the 4th, 1998 in the matter of Her Majesty the 12 Queen and Ken Deane for the Court of Appeal for Ontario? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And if you look at paragraph 3, 15 please, in particular. I'll read the paragraph. I'm 16 interested in the last sentence in particular. 17 "On September 6th, 1995 I was briefed 18 by Staff Sergeant Lacroix and advised 19 that I would be managing an arrest team 20 for the Crowd Management Unit that had 21 been formed to clear the intersection 22 of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 23 Drive where Native persons had 24 gathered. 25 I knew there was the threat of firearms
1691 from the Native occupiers because of my 2 own experience and because of previous 3 reports of firearms being discharged on 4 the arms -- Armed Forces Base." 5 Now, focussing on the last sentence, can 6 you tell us what reports of firearms being discharged on 7 the Armed Forces Base you were referring to? 8 A: As I mentioned earlier, during the 9 course of my duties in July or, sorry, more into August 10 because I got there at the end of July, I was privy to 11 information that people that resided in the area had 12 reported gunshots being heard from the Base. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I was involved in an incident in 1993 15 with a helicopter where a firearm, in all likelihood, was 16 discharged from the Base. 17 I worked in the Command Post the night of 18 the 5th of September where an officer, and I had no 19 reason to doubt his truth in the matter, reported hearing 20 automatic gunfire come from the Base. 21 Q: Okay. And in relation to the 22 statement, "because of my own experience", then, what 23 specifically were you referring to? 24 A: I was referring to my past military 25 and my policing experience.
1701 Q: All right, and can you just tell me 2 how that formed a source of information that supported 3 your -- your statement that the threat of firearms, that 4 there was one? 5 A: Well, it was an inference that I drew 6 based on the experiences that I've had. 7 Q: Okay. Your general experience as a 8 police officer do you mean? 9 A: As a police officer, just a person 10 that's familiar with and had no doubt to believe that 11 people were reporting the incidents involving firearms. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right, then. Returning to your 17 notes at Tab 6 then, for September 5th, Exhibit P-1387. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Can you just tell us what time you 22 were off-duty that shift? And you can look at page 92 of 23 your notes to refresh your memory, if necessary. 24 A: I was -- 25 Q: I'm sorry.
1711 A: I went off duty at 10:00 a.m. 2 Q: Thank you. And I'm sorry I -- I've 3 been reminded that I should make the affidavit of Wayde 4 Jacklin the next exhibit please? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1400, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1400: Document Number 2005327. 8 Affidavit of Wayde Jacklin, 9 August 04, 1998. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: Thank you. All right. And did 13 anything of -- of consequence occur for the balance of 14 your shift that you can recall? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Can you tell me. 17 A: When I was relieved of my duties at 18 the Command Post I was given a new assignment. 19 Q: And what was that assignment? 20 A: That assignment was to attend with 21 members of 1 and 2 ERT teams to the location of Army Camp 22 Road and East Parkway Road where a number of picnic 23 tables had been put out into the intersection at that 24 location. 25 Q: All right. And approximately what
1721 time did you -- did you go to the -- this location? 2 A: I didn't make specific note of the 3 time but it was just -- it was early in the morning. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Some -- shortly after 7:00 I believe. 6 Q: Fair enough. And if you look at page 7 92 of your notes at Tab 6 there's a notation at 07:00: 8 "Received new assignment to remove 9 picnic tables blocking Army Camp Road 10 and East Parkway." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Is that the -- the assignment that 13 you're referring to? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: All right. And did you in fact 16 attend at that location? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And what did you observe when you 19 attended? 20 A: I observed approximately twenty (20) 21 picnic tables out in the public access area of that 22 intersection. And -- 23 Q: Is that -- I'm sorry is that what 24 we've sometimes referenced as the sandy parking lot? 25 A: Yes.
1731 Q: Thank you. Carry on. 2 A: And at that time I observed two (2) 3 male Natives sitting or were on top of the picnic tables. 4 Q: What was the -- the configuration of 5 the picnic tables if you can recall? 6 A: I don't recall. 7 Q: All right. What happened next? 8 A: When we arrived I observed the two 9 (2) First Nations males flee from the picnic tables into 10 the Park. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: After that we removed the picnic 13 tables. 14 Q: All right. And -- and how were they 15 removed? 16 A: They were put on a flatbed trailer I 17 believe. 18 Q: And was there any interaction with 19 the First Nations occupiers during the course of this 20 removal? 21 A: I don't recall any. 22 Q: Do you recall any -- any throwing of 23 rocks? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Or any gun -- gunshot sounds?
1741 A: No. 2 Q: Or any firecracker sounds? 3 A: I don't recall any of that. 4 Q: Okay. And were you able to make 5 observations as to the interior of the Park from your 6 vantage point? 7 A: I could see inside the Park. I made 8 no special note other than I do recall an ATV being 9 inside the Park. 10 Q: All right. Now, to your -- sorry, 11 was there any -- anything -- anything else of 12 significance over the course of this picnic table 13 removal? 14 A: Not that I recall, no. 15 Q: All right. And to your knowledge was 16 there a deployment of ten (10) to twenty (20) ERT members 17 during the course of the evening of September the 5th, 18 1995? 19 A: There was not. 20 Q: And is it likely you would have known 21 had there been such a deployment? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And where was the ERT team staying 24 while assigned to Ipperwash over this timeframe? 25 A: In the Pinery Park at the bunkhouse.
1751 Q: Okay. And what was the length of 2 your shift? 3 A: On the 5th? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I -- six o'clock on Tuesday evening 6 and until ten o'clock in the morning on the 6th of 7 September. 8 Q: So another -- another long shift from 9 your perspective? 10 A: It wasn't bad. 11 Q: Longer than normal though? 12 A: Longer than normal, yes. 13 Q: And moving to September 6th then when 14 did you -- when did you return to duty? 15 A: I returned to duty at six o'clock 16 that evening. 17 Q: All right. Did you receive a -- a 18 briefing at -- at Forest? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And do you recall whether there was 21 anything of significance or new reported to you during 22 the course of that briefing? 23 A: I -- I don't recall. 24 Q: Okay. Was there any change in the 25 course -- the policing course that had been communicated
1761 to you with respect to the policing operation? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you have any awareness with 4 respect to whether or not the -- an injunction process 5 was still underway? 6 A: I -- I believe there was. It was 7 underway but I don't have any -- I wasn't involved in it 8 at all. 9 Q: All right. And otherwise the -- the 10 policing approach was the same so far as you knew as -- 11 as had existed on September the 5th? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. What were you assigned to do 14 after the six o'clock briefing? 15 A: I was assigned to a location that we 16 refer to as Checkpoint C. 17 Q: All right. Is that sometimes 18 referred to as Checkpoint Charlie? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And can you tell us where that 21 checkpoint was located? 22 A: It was located at the driveway of 23 Sunnyside Campground and Army Camp Road. 24 Q: Okay. And it was across from the 25 Army Camp Base?
1771 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: Okay. And what was your role at the 3 -- at Checkpoint C? 4 A: I was one (1) of five (5) ERT team 5 members that were located there to observe and to keep 6 the public peace. 7 Q: All right. We're just going to put 8 on the screen -- this is a copy of map that has been 9 produced by at least the OPP. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: All right. And you'll see that this 14 is meant to show the locations of the checkpoints over 15 the course of the 6th and 7th. Now we can read it very 16 well. 17 And you'll see that there are four (4) 18 checkpoints shown, 'A', 'B', 'C' and 'D'. Now Checkpoint 19 'C', does that -- can you comment -- I could appreciate 20 this isn't exactly the scale, but can you comment whether 21 that's the approximate correct location? 22 A: It would be approximately correct. 23 Q: All right. And Checkpoint Alpha was 24 it back now towards the corner of East Parkway Drive and 25 Army Camp Road or do you know?
1781 A: I don't know on that evening, no. 2 Q: Okay. Checkpoint Bravo, can you 3 comment on that? 4 A: Don't know. 5 Q: Or Checkpoint 'D' or Delta? 6 A: I was aware that 'D' was there. 7 Q: All right. And it seems to be at the 8 -- the right location just lakeside of Highway 21 across 9 from about the -- well just -- just past the -- the 10 built-up area of the Army Camp? 11 A: I knew it was up in that area, I'm 12 not sure exactly where. 13 Q: All right. Well for the record I'd 14 like to make this the next exhibit please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1401, Your Honour. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: All right. In any event you're at 20 Checkpoint C and how long did you remain at Checkpoint C? 21 A: I believe it was around 9:30 or so, 22 p.m. 23 Q: All right. And what was your -- what 24 was the purpose or your understanding of the purpose of - 25 - of or the function of Checkpoint C?
1791 A: Checkpoint C was like I said it was 2 at Sunnyside Trailer Park which was a trailer park that 3 was occupied by residents. And we were giving a police 4 presence at that location to ensure the safe movement of 5 people. 6 And also to reassure the people that were 7 in that Park that there was a police presence. 8 Q: And were you also making 9 observations, visual observations of what was going on 10 across the road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you have any vehicle search 13 task? 14 A: Not that I recall. 15 Q: All right. Just for the record, we 16 made the checkpoint map an exhibit, so I'm advised that 17 it's already an exhibit. So strike that, it's already 18 Exhibit P-1284 for the record. 19 All right. And did any -- sorry, did -- 20 did anything -- what observations did you make of sig -- 21 that were of significance over the course of that time 22 period? 23 A: The -- the observations first of all 24 involving the base itself. There was a definite increase 25 of activity.
1801 It was a beehive of activity, actually. 2 Up and down the border road, the perimeter road. 3 Observed a dump truck going back and forth. 4 At times there were people in the back, 5 other times there was other stuff in the back. I'm not 6 sure what. 7 Lots of vehicle traffic. We were lit up 8 by spotlights at times. There was some taunts being 9 thrown our way from people inside the -- the Park. 10 Vehicles had stopped at times. Just a 11 tremendous increase in traffic and there was a fair bit 12 of radio talk as well of -- of activity going on in the 13 area. 14 Q: And when you say "radio talk" what 15 are you talking about? 16 A: I'm talking about the information I'd 17 receive over my radio that when somebody would talk on 18 the channel, you would hear it. 19 Q: Okay. So you were privy to the radio 20 communications of -- was it the TAC channel at the time 21 or...? 22 A: Yeah. I believe we'd still been on 23 TAC, yes. 24 Q: Okay, thank you. And at some point 25 during the course of this deployment, did you change
1811 physical positions? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. Were you aware of any 4 First Nations individuals coming to Checkpoint 'C' that 5 night and giving a statement? 6 A: Yes, I am aware. 7 Q: And what did you aware? Or sorry, 8 observe? 9 A: I recall a vehicle attending our 10 location that had been involved in an altercation and 11 involving some damage to his vehicle. 12 He attended in -- into the Park area and 13 one of the officers dealt with him. 14 Q: Sorry, into the Park, the trailer 15 park you mean? 16 A: My recollection is we ended up -- I 17 observed the vehicle pulling in -- into the Park, off the 18 -- off the Army Camp Road. 19 Q: What Park? 20 A: Sunnyside Park. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 A: Trailer Park. 23 Q: It's okay. And did you observe who - 24 - who took a statement from this individual? 25 A: I recall Officer Poole having some
1821 dealings with him. I don't know if he took a statement. 2 I don't recall that. 3 Q: And did you see any other officers 4 having any dealings with this individual? 5 A: I believe Officer Dew. 6 Q: Were you close enough to overhear any 7 of the exchange? 8 A: Not really. 9 Q: Were you apprised of what this 10 individual had told either Constable Poole or Dew at this 11 time? 12 A: I -- I was aware of some of the 13 information, but I don't know if that came over the air 14 or I was privy to con -- I wasn't privy to the 15 conversation but I -- I was aware what had -- what had 16 apparently taken place. 17 Q: Okay. And what was the extent of 18 your knowledge? 19 A: That he had had his vehicle damaged 20 by some occupiers of the Park -- of the Provincial Park. 21 Q: And had you been given any more 22 specifics as to how the damage occurred? 23 A: I can't recall. 24 Q: All right. And did you make any 25 personal observations about anything about this
1831 individual? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And you've indicated that you also 4 were privy to a number of radio communications which 5 transpired over the course of that evening while you were 6 at Checkpoint C. 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And these would have been 9 communications from what units? 10 A: Just different units that were in the 11 area. 12 Q: All right. Were you aware, for 13 example, that there was an Oscar team out? 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: And were you aware as to what the 16 Oscar team's function was that night? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: What? 19 A: They were doing an observation down 20 by the low -- area of Army Camp Road and the beach area. 21 Q: All right. And did you also -- were 22 you privy to conversations involving Lima 2 or TOC? 23 A: Specifically? 24 Q: Well, just generally was that...? 25 A: I would have been privy to those --
1841 Q: All right. 2 A: -- if they came across the air. 3 Q: And with other checkpoints, 4 conversations emanating from other checkpoints? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Have I got all the different sources 7 or are then any other checkpoints: the Command Post, the 8 TOC, Oscar teams? 9 A: I don't know. I don't believe there 10 was any roving patrols. 11 Q: Okay. But if there were they would 12 have been also on the same channel? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. Now, we have a series of 15 audio transmissions, Commissioner. They haven't been 16 played; they haven't been tendered and the identities of 17 people aren't identified. Now, they're not very long but 18 they are the entire course of the -- the communications. 19 I'd like to play them so we have the benefit of the Staff 20 Sergeant's testimony on them. 21 I believe that you have I hope a package 22 of materials. The top is -- the transmission is 23 September 6th, 1995, 20:36? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: The last communication is September
1851 6th at 22:01? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: I have it. 5 Q: And what I propose to do is I believe 6 they are separately -- are they separately identified on 7 your CD? Yeah. All right. 8 So we'll -- we'll go through them one (1) 9 at a time and I'll only ask you questions where it might 10 be of assistance. If there's something that you wish to 11 add however that I don't ask you about feel free to -- to 12 fill it in. 13 So let's start with track 20:36, the 14 transmission at 20:36. These are all on the TAC channel. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 September 6, 1995 18 20:36 19 Track # 2036 20 21 Mark Zacher Lima Two, Charlie. 22 Mark Zacher Lima Two, Charlie? 23 TOC Go ahead Charlie. 24 Mark Zacher Yeah, we have two more vehicles stopped at 25 our location now. One of the vehicles has
1861 Judas George outside talking to another 2 female. 3 4 TOC Ten four. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: All right. Just stopping with that 10 the reference to Charlie is that Checkpoint "C"? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: And were you able to recognize the 13 person communicating from Checkpoint 'C'? 14 A: Actually I believe that's Mark 15 Zacher. 16 Q: Mark? 17 A: Zacher -- 18 Q: Zacher? 19 A: -- I believe. 20 Q: And he was at the checkpoint with 21 you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So that would be the first line, the 24 second line, and the third line? Sorry, the first, 25 second, and fourth lines?
1871 A: I believe so. 2 Q: And then the, Go ahead, Charlie, from 3 Lima 2, did -- were you able to recognize...? 4 A: No. 5 Q: But that would be TOC, Lima 2? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So the third line is TOC and, 10-4 8 presumably was the TOC transmission as well? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 11 next exhibit please? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1401, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1401: Transcript of September 06, 15 1995, 20:36 hrs, track number 16 2036. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: And if we could move quickly to the 20 next transmission which is at 20:40? Oh, I'm sorry. 21 Okay. Excuse me. Just before we go onto that this is an 22 observation obviously that's being reported from your on 23 -- on the first transmission -- 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: -- from your vantage point. Did you
1881 -- is this -- did you happen to see this? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And is there anything that you wish 4 to add to this event? 5 A: What -- what had happened was we were 6 at that intersection, that vehicle stopped on the Army 7 Camp -- not on the Army Camp Road on the Base perimeter 8 road. 9 Q: The interior road of the Army Camp? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: Judas George had exited the vehicle, 13 was talking to a female there across from our location. 14 Q: And that's -- why -- why that of 15 significance? 16 A: I think it -- well, I'd be 17 speculating but I took it as being just a bit of an 18 intimidation thing. 19 Q: That's how you took it? 20 A: That's how I took it, yes. 21 Q: All right. Okay. Proceed with the 22 second communication at 20:40 on track 20:40. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 25 September 6, 1995
1891 20:40 2 Track # 2040 3 4 (Unclear) 5 24, 24, Lima Two go ahead. 6 (Unclear) 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: All right. This is as much -- it's a 12 more difficult transmission to hear but -- and there's 13 more coming, thank you. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 16 17 Confirm there's a lot of vehicle traffic on the beach 18 where you are. 19 (Unclear) second time that's negative (unclear) 20 Can't read you 24, 24. 21 Lima Two, negative traffic at this time, there has been 22 quite a bit. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 25
1901 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Thank you. As I said, it's a more 3 difficult one to hear, but were you able to capture any 4 of the voices here? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. Was this the -- thank 7 you. We'll make this the next exhibit, please. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1402, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1402: Transcript of September 06, 11 1995, 20:40 hrs, track number 12 2040. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. You can proceed now to 16 the next communication at 20:47. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 September 6, 1995 20 20:47 21 Track # 2047 22 23 Lima Two, 2426. 24 Go ahead 2426. 25 Yeah, we've got one male crossing the road about ... and
1911 up the front here. Ten four. 2 Yeah, you cut out completely. 3 We've got one male on foot, came across the road to north 4 of our position. Three vehicles came from the beach 5 area, south into the main gate area. Ten four? 6 Ten four and that's at Delta? 7 Ten four. We're at Delta. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: And this was a communication from the 13 Delta Checkpoint to Lima 2? 14 A: I don't recognize the voices of 15 Delta. 16 Q: Okay, fair enough. Maybe you could 17 just help me. The reference to 2426, what would that 18 typically be a reference to? 19 A: I don't know. 20 Q: Not the -- not a vehicle call number 21 or...? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Okay.
1921 A: I don't recall. 2 Q: Okay. And I don't know if you heard, 3 maybe -- I seem to hear on there, there's a third last 4 transmission that says: 5 "We've got one (1) male at front." 6 Did you hear something different from 7 that? 8 A: I think that's what I heard. 9 Q: Is that what you heard? 10 A: On the tape? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: I was following along. I believe 13 that's what it said. 14 Q: Okay, I -- maybe we could just play 15 it again quickly, 'cause I -- I heard something a little 16 different and we might as well just listen more 17 carefully. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 September 6, 1995 21 20:47 22 Track # 2047 23 24 Lima Two, 2426. 25 Go ahead 2426.
1931 Yeah, we've got one male crossing the road about ... and 2 up the front here. Ten four. 3 Yeah, you cut out completely. 4 We've got one male on foot, came across the road to north 5 of our position. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: What did you hear there? 11 A: On foot. 12 Q: That's what I heard as well, and I 13 wonder then if we might just make a correction to the 14 transcript. So we've got "one male on foot" not "at 15 front" and make that the next exhibit, please. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1403, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1403: Transcript of September 06, 19 1995, 20:47 hrs, track number 20 2047. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: All right. Then the next 24 transmission is at 20:48, please. 25
1941 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 September 6, 1995 3 20:48 4 Track # 2048 5 6 Lima Two, Checkpoint Charlie. 7 Go ahead Charlie. 8 Just FYI you know in the last five minutes ago there's 9 been approximately 8 or 9 vehicles that have come from 10 the beach area, heading back to the main camp. 11 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: And did you recognize any of those 17 voices? 18 A: I think it might be me. 19 Q: All right. That would be the first 20 line and the third passage? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And why did you think that was 23 relevant to report to Lima 2? 24 A: Because the -- the number of 25 vehicles, the increase in traffic.
1951 Q: Okay. Thank you. And make that the 2 next exhibit, please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1404, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1404: Transcript of September 06, 6 1995. 20:48. hrs. track 7 number 20:48. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: And if we might play the next -- it's 11 at 20:49 and I promise there's not one every second, it 12 just seems that way at the moment. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 15 September 6, 1995 16 20:49 17 Track # 2049 18 19 (Unclear) Checkpoint Charlie to Checkpoint Alpha. 20 Go ahead Alpha. 21 Is this good for vehicles to come from the beach area 22 towards the residences down there at the trailer parks? 23 Yeah, there's not a problem. They've go one vehicle 24 stopped here right now, the traffic is ... there's no 25 other traffic stopped (unclear).
1961 Yeah, I've got a gentleman and his wife down here that 2 want to go to their trailer that's parked down there. 3 He's driving a (unclear) Pontiac (unclear). 4 Whereabouts is their trailer? Is it on Army Camp Road? 5 He may have changed his mind he's coming down from 21, 6 he's going all the way around now. 7 10-4. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: All right. I'll just ask you, is 13 there any -- do you recognize any of the voices? 14 A: There's a possibility that was me 15 talking from Charlie. 16 Q: Charlie is though -- is that with 17 respect -- which passages would that be on this? 18 A: Towards the bottom. 19 "Whereabouts is the trailer, is it on 20 Army Camp Road? 21 Q: Okay. Any other portions that you 22 think might have been you? 23 A: I'm not sure. 24 Q: Okay. Make that the next exhibit 25 please?
1971 THE REGISTRAR: P-1405, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1405: Transcript of September 06, 4 1995. 20:49 hrs. track 5 number 2049. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: The next exhibit or sorry the next 9 document has already been made an exhibit, it's Exhibit 10 P-1142 and it reflects radio transmission commencing at 11 21:03 and it's three (3) minutes and two (2) seconds 12 long. Perhaps we could just play that please? 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 15 Radio Transmission: 16 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 17 Date: 06 September 1995 18 Start Time: 21:03 hours 19 Duration of Transmission: 3 minutes and 2 seconds 20 Conversation Involves: Lima 2, Lima 1, Checkpoint 21 Charlie, Checkpoint Delta, Checkpoint Alpha 22 23 Charlie: Lima two ah Charlie 24 Lima 2: Go ahead Charlie Lima two 25 Charlie: Yeah just confirmation ah new spot I/A
1981 south of our position 2 Lima 2: Charlie ah Lima two you're totally broken 3 Charlie: Yeah we're just confirming this is the 4 spot I/A road I/A 5 Lima 2: Charlie ah the command from ah Lima one 6 was to move back towards ah Delta 7 Charlie: Yeah that's ten four that's where we're 8 moving we're just confirming the exact 9 location 10 Lima 2: He didn't give me an exact location you 11 can call him if you like 12 Charlie: Lima one Charlie 13 Lima 1: Lima one go ahead 14 Charlie: Just confirming ah the location you want 15 us to set up ah towards Delta 16 Lima 1: Yeah that has been now changed effective 17 ah twenty five seconds ago stand-by for 18 new instructions 19 Charlie: Standing by 20 Lima 1: Lima one to checkpoint Delta 21 Delta: Go ahead Lima one 22 Lima 1: Checkpoint delta you're to move north of 23 the Army Camp Road entrance north of the 24 Army Camp Road entrance to ah the Army 25 Camp and close off the road at that
1991 location close off the road allowing ah 2 traffic to come out of the Army Camp 3 towards twenty one but not towards 4 Ipperwash is that ten four 5 Delta: Lima one ah delta ten four 6 Lima 1: Lima one to checkpoint Charlie do you read 7 Charlie: Charlie go ahead 8 Lima 1: You're to ah remain in your position and 9 ah set the cars off to the side and just 10 have an observation the road will be 11 closed up at Delta you just ah act as 12 observation is that ten four 13 Charlie: That's ten four 14 Lima 1: Checkpoint Alpha from Lima one read 15 Alpha: I/A 16 Lima 1: You're to have the road closed there and 17 checkpoint Bravo should at your location 18 as well that ten four 19 Alpha: That's ten four they're at this location 20 now and the road is closed 21 Lima 1: Ten four 22 Bravo: Lima two checkpoint Bravo 23 Lima 2: Bravo ah Lima two go ahead 24 Bravo: We have a cottager here requesting to go 25 to his residence he's between us and the
2001 Army Camp Road do we just escort him down 2 or just let him go down or is it closed 3 for everybody 4 Lima 2: It's closed for everybody 5 Bravo: Ten four 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: On the -- I -- just to 10 explain the transmission that I just played. On the 11 transmission that we played when Exhibit P-1142 was 12 marked had on it the last two (2) lines, it's Lima 2 it's 13 closed for everybody. Bravo 10-4. 14 On this particular sequence of -- of -- of 15 clips it's "Lima 2, it's closed for everybody. Bravo 10- 16 4" is captured in a separate clip at 21:06. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Right. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But on the clip that 19 we played when this exam -- when this was marked P-1142, 20 it had the "It's closed for everybody. 10-4." 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It combined both then. 22 Okay. Fair enough. So perhaps -- okay well that -- that 23 explains that. It's repeated on the next page, you'll 24 see. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the next
2011 page. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: At 21:06, this last 3 two (2) lines. That's fine. Thank you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Did you recognize -- 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 9 10 September 6, 1995 11 21:06 12 13 Track # 2106 14 15 Closed for everybody. 16 17 10-4. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: And those were the last two (2) lines. 23 Did you recognize the voices at all in 24 this transmission? 25 A: I believe that Charlie was myself
2021 talking most of the time. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: As far as Lima 1, I believe it might 4 be Sergeant Graham. But I'm -- 5 Q: Sergeant Graham? 6 A: I -- I don't want to speculate. 7 Q: Okay. All right. How about Lima 2? 8 A: I couldn't tell. 9 Q: All right. Well, let's not speculate 10 but -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- we will indicate that the Charlie 13 references are you. 14 A: Some of them I believe so, yes. 15 Q: And the -- can you tell me which 16 aren't? 17 A: On the longer conversations I had 18 from Charlie, the shorter ones are -- I -- I can't tell 19 if that's me. 20 Q: Okay. All right. And here there was 21 a contemplation that Checkpoint Charlie would be moving 22 but at the day it didn't move? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And what was you -- your role then 25 with the last instructions for you at 21:03 at Checkpoint
2031 Charlie? 2 A: That were to remain at Checkpoint 3 Charlie. 4 Q: And do what? 5 A: We -- we were to continue to do what 6 we were doing. Well we were -- the road was closed for 7 everybody as it says. 8 Q: So when it says on -- on page 12 when 9 Lima 1 -- sorry, it says page 12 on the exhibit. You're 10 to remain in your position and it says -- and set. 11 Although I've heard 'send'. I don't know if you did as 12 well. 13 But it says you're: 14 "To remain in your position and set the 15 cars off to the side and just have an 16 observation. The road will be closed 17 up at Delta. You just act as an 18 observation, is that 10-4." 19 A: Charlie was acting as -- as an 20 observation. 21 Q: Okay. Thank you. All right. And 22 the next transmission which was 21:06 which is the tail 23 end of 24 P-1142, we should give that an exhibit so that we don't 25 lose track of it.
2041 THE REGISTRAR: P-1406, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1406: Transcript of September 06, 4 1995. 21:06 hrs. track 5 number 2106. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: And then moving onto the transmission 9 at 21:07. Perhaps you could play that for me. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 12 September 6, 1995 13 21:07 14 Track # 2107 15 16 Lima One to Checkpoint Charlie. 17 Charlie. Go ahead. 18 Checkpoint Charlie - number of members at your location? 19 Ten members. 20 Lima One to Delta - members? 21 Five members. 22 Delta you cut yourself out. 23 Five members at Delta. 24 You have to press your mic in, wait a couple of seconds 25 and then answer.
2051 Five members at Delta. 2 Ten four. 3 Checkpoint Alpha? 4 Checkpoint Alpha with Bravo and Alpha, six members. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: All right, and did you recognize 10 anyone's voice on this transmission? 11 A: I -- no. 12 Q: All right. And you're being asked, 13 at least the Checkpoint Charlie is being asked how many 14 members are at your location and the same question is 15 being asked of Checkpoint Delta. 16 At this time do you have any -- do you 17 know why they're doing a numbers check? 18 A: No, I do not. 19 Q: Okay. Make this the next exhibit, 20 please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1407, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1407: Transcript of September 06, 24 1995. 21:07 hrs. track 25 number 2107.
2061 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: And then moving on September 6th, if 3 we could play this brief transmission at 21:09 of 4 September 6. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 7 September 6, 1995 8 21:09 9 Track # 2109 10 11 Lima One to Charlie. 12 Charlie, go ahead. 13 Charlie, there's five original members are to remain at 14 Charlie. The other five are to report to Delta. Ten 15 four. 16 10-4. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: All right. Again, do you recognize 22 any of the voices? 23 A: I believe Charlie is myself. 24 Q: All right. And at this time, you're 25 receiving instructions from the Command Post to send five
2071 (5) of the members to Delta? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And were you one of the members that 4 went to Delta or...? 5 A: No, I remained at Charlie. 6 Q: Okay. Make this the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1408, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1408: Transcript of September 06, 10 1995, 21:09 hrs, track number 11 2109. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: And going to the next transmission at 15 21:35 now, please. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 18 September 6, 1995 19 21:35 20 Track # 2135 21 22 Lima One to all checkpoints - stand by. 23 Lima One to all checkpoints, be advised in the near 24 future Checkpoints Delta and Alpha will be relieved by 25 uniform. Will be relieved by uniform at which time Delta
2081 and Alpha will return to the TOC. Delta and Alpha will 2 return to the TOC. Delta will return via Ipperwash Road. 3 When Delta is relieved, Delta you are to advise Lima One 4 at which point Checkpoint Charlie will also leave by Army 5 Camp Road to 21 Highway and the Ipperwash Road to the 6 TOC. Checkpoint Delta is that ten four? 7 Lima One, Checkpoint Delta - ten four. 8 Checkpoint Charlie, is that ten four? 9 Charlie ten four 10 Checkpoint Alpha - ten four? 11 Alpha ten four. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: All right. And again, my question, 17 do you recognize any of the voices on this? 18 A: I believe I'm Charlie, outside -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- that, I'm not sure. 21 Q: Okay. And at this point, you receive 22 instructions from Lima 1 to ultimately to attend at the 23 TOC; is that right? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. And at this time, do you
2091 know what your -- what the assignment or what the purpose 2 of attending at the TOC will be? 3 A: I don't believe so. 4 Q: All right. Make this the next 5 exhibit, please. 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1409, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1409: Transcript of September 06, 9 1995, 21:35 hrs. track 10 number 2135. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: And the next -- the next document has 14 been marked as Exhibit P-1128. It's a -- a radio 15 transmission at 21:39 on September the 6th, two (2) 16 minutes and one (1) second. 17 All right. And would you kindly play this 18 transmission, please? 19 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 Radio Transmission: 23 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 24 Date: 06 September 1995 25 Start Time: 21:39 hours
2101 Delta: Lima two from checkpoint delta 2 TRU: Checkpoint delta you calling TRU 3 Delta: Lima two from checkpoint delta 4 Lima 2: Delta Lima two go ahead 5 Delta: A lot of traffic down here, we got a lot 6 of traffic, ah we're probably going to 7 start getting some rocks coming in any 8 minute. 9 Lima 2: Ten four Lima one you read that 10 Graham: Lima one to delta 11 Lima 2: Lima one ah from Lima two 12 Graham: Go ahead Lima two 13 Lima 2: Did ah you read ah delta they advise 14 there's lots happening there, they're 15 expecting rocks to fly momentarily 16 Graham: Yeah ten four, I'm trying to find out from 17 delta whether ah it appears that the women 18 and children have left the camp or not 19 Delta: Lima one delta, women and children have 20 left earlier on, they've gone through 21 checkpoint earlier 22 Graham: That's ten four ah checkpoint delta. How 23 many vehicles have you got down there 24 Delta: Two, there's the big ah dump truck, 25 there's the bat mobile, they've just
2111 started a large bonfire. I told the people 2 here if we start getting ah fire bombed 3 we're out of here 4 Graham: Yeah ten four they ah, they're, they're 5 inside the camp though 6 Delta: That's ten four they're just inside on the 7 road 8 Graham: Ten four 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: All right. And at this point this is 14 a -- is this a transmission then that you would have 15 been privy to? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And as a result of this transmission 18 you were receiving information that women and children 19 have left the Camp? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: That there is -- are vehicles, in 22 particular a dump truck, a batmobile and that a large 23 bonfire has been started? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: There is a suggestion that if -- if
2121 one -- if Delta is going to get firebombed they're out of 2 there. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And that this is happening just 5 inside of the Army Camp line along Army Camp Road? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And once you got this information 8 what, if any, was your assessment of the situation as a 9 police officer? 10 A: It rang some alarm bells. It 11 appeared that things were kind of escalating. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: All right. Well, if you can recall 17 when this transmission was sent can you recall what your 18 position was physically? 19 A: Where I was located? 20 Q: Yeah. Were you still at Charlie or 21 were you en route down to the TOC or...? 22 Okay. All right. Maybe we can -- I'll 23 defer that question to the next -- until after you hear 24 the next radio transmission at 21:49. 25
2131 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 September 6, 1995 3 21:49 4 Track # 2149 5 6 Delta from Lima One - what's the status like down there? 7 Checkpoint Delta from Lima One 8 Lima One Checkpoint Delta. I'm very busy down here I 9 wouldn't put uniforms in here just right now, ten four. 10 Ten four. Checkpoint Charlie from Lima One. What's your 11 status like? 12 We're getting the odd vehicle by here as instructed. 13 Ten four. Can I .. you think it's okay if I relieve that 14 ... relieve that position or should I relieve it with 15 uniforms? 16 With the road blocked off at either end. Its probably 17 not necessary we be here. 18 Charlie - should uniform be there or can we just 19 disregard it? 20 Disregard it. 21 Okay, Charlie - you want to 1019 the TOC? 1019 the TOC? 22 You know which way not to go and you'll be supplement to 23 the CMU that's forming up down there as an arrest team. 24 10-4. 25 10-4.
2141 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: All right. Now, first of all, did 5 you recognize any of the voices? 6 A: I believe that Charlie conversation 7 is from myself. 8 Q: Okay. So you're communicating from 9 Charlie. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And obviously at this point you're 12 still at Checkpoint Charlie at 21:49? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And is it your advice that there's no 15 need to have any checkpoint in that location? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right. So it's not that you'll 18 be relieved by uniforms, it'll be disbanded? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then you receive a direction to 21 go down to the TOC to supplement the CMU that's forming 22 up and that you're -- you're element will be the arrest 23 team? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Okay. Make this the next exhibit,
2151 please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1410, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1410: Transcript of September 06, 5 1995. 21:49 hrs, track 6 number 2149. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Do you -- could you tell whether or 10 not the voice from Lima 1 was Sergeant Korosec? 11 A: I'm not sure. 12 Q: Okay, fair enough, thank you. And 13 then to the next transmission now. So you're now -- do 14 you depart immediately for the TOC at about 21:49? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And if we go to the 17 transmission, 21:52 please. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 September 6, 1995 21 21:52 22 Track # 2152 23 24 Lima One, Delta. 25
2161 Go ahead 2 We've got a problem here, we need some uniforms right at 3 21 keeping them out of here. 4 Delta, ten four. I'll send you six right now. 5 Send them up right at 21 and just don't let anybody down 6 here. They have I/A lighting us up. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: All right. Now this is a 12 transmission that you would have heard en route at the 13 TOC -- to the TOC, likely? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: And it looks like Delta 1 is advising 16 that, in fact, there should be a checkpoint up at 21 17 Highway? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Did you understand that to be at 21 20 Highway and Army Camp Road? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So in other words, a little bit -- to 23 where the Checkpoint Delta was? 24 A: Up higher, I believe. I believe it's 25 right up near the intersection.
2171 Q: Okay, fair enough. I'd like to make 2 this the next exhibit, please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1411, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1411: Transcript of September 06, 6 1995, 21:52 hrs, track 7 number 2152. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: And the next transmission, please, 11 which is at 21:54. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I believe we're just double checking 16 to see whether this is already an exhibit. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Okay, all right. So perhaps we could 21 -- it's not an exhibit. Perhaps we... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I -- I've -- could you
2181 kindly play the radio transmission at 21:54? 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 September 6, 1995 5 21:54 6 Track # 2154 7 8 Lima Two - Lima One 9 Lima One, Lima Two go ahead 10 I need any ERT that are at the TOC site there, I got five 11 coming from Charlie they are to supplement the CMU as 12 best as possible as an arrest team and anyone left over I 13 want manning those two vans that are down there, that'll 14 be two in each and they're to remain at the TOC unless 15 they're called to pick up 1092's. Is that ten four? 16 10-4. I only have two people here. I'm not sure what's 17 outside right now. You're not talking about the check 18 point are you? 19 No. The ones that are at the TOC, that aren't doing 20 anything - how many you got at the check point Alpha? 21 I've got two people at the TOC here right now and at 22 check point Alpha I should have eight people. 23 Lima Two this is Alpha, we have 6 bodies here, six bodies 24 here with I/A. 25 (Unclear) ... the CMU do so.
2191 Okay, repeat that Lima One. 2 3 If you can relieve some members from Alpha if they're not 4 busy, they don't need all eight down there, they can 5 attend the TOC and supplement CMU when they arrive if 6 they're not already there. 7 I need to clear this with Alpha. 8 You want them suited up then? 9 No the supplement will be in softac, softac. 10 Alpha to Lima Two. This is Alpha we have six bodies 11 repeat six bodies, we can definitely let at least two go 12 with a caged van if you want that? 13 Yeah, ten four. 14 If so you'll be in softac and supplement CMU as an arrest 15 unit. 16 Okay, I'm sending two one district ERT teams that are 17 going across to TOC to assist as an arrest squad. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: All right. Did you recognize Lima 1 23 or Lima 2 there? 24 A: I'm not certain. 25 Q: Or any of the other voices? Okay.
2201 And there's a reference to the arrest team being 2 comprised of two (2) 1 District ERT teams and they are 3 instructed to be in softac. Can you just tell me what 4 that is? Softac. 5 A: The -- it refers to the level of 6 protection you'd wear while being involved in CMU. 7 Q: And what is the relative level? 8 A: At that time softac would have been 9 in tactical uniform, probably a baseball hat and then 10 your duty belt. 11 Q: All right. So no shield or hard 12 helmets or -- or visor? 13 A: That's not -- would I take as being 14 softac. 15 Q: Okay. Make this the next exhibit 16 please. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1412, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1412: Transcript of September 06, 20 1995. 21:54 hrs, track 21 number 2154. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: And I should just ask -- there's a 25 reference here about the van and they're to stay at the
2211 TOC unless they're called to pick 10-92's, 10-92's refer 2 to? 3 A: 10-92 is a police code, part of the 4 10-4 code; that means arrest. 5 Q: All right. Thank you. All right. 6 And if we could go to the next transmission then please. 7 Yes, I wonder, when I was listening to that transmission, 8 on the first page, fourth entry from the bottom. "No, 9 the supplement will be in softac -- softac." 10 And then -- did you hear another -- did 11 you hear the reference to the -- the arrest team? 12 A: At that point? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: I don't recall. But at the last 15 line, I did make note where it said arrest team, I 16 thought it actually said arrest units. But -- 17 Q: Sorry? Arrest team. 18 A: On the very last line, it says 19 'arrest team'. I understood it to be arrest unit, not 20 that it means anything, but. 21 Q: All right. Well we'll just make the 22 -- the one correction then at the bottom of the page. 1) 23 "So you'll be in softac" and supplement CMU as an arrest 24 unit. 25 A: That's what I heard.
2221 Q: That's what you heard? But to you 2 there's no substantive difference. 3 A: There's none. 4 Q: All right. And just as a typo on the 5 second page refers to going across to TAC, it should be 6 going across to TOC, T-O-C-, is that right? 7 A: Yes, TOC. 8 Q: Going across to TOC to assist as in 9 arrest squad. Okay, thank you. 10 The next -- the next transmission please 11 at 21:59. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 September 6, 1995 15 21:59 16 Track # 2159 17 18 Charlie from Lima One. 19 Charlie go. 20 Lima One Charlie go ahead. 21 Charlie for Lima One - are you 10-8 from your location to 22 the TOC? 23 Lima One, Charlie, ten four ETA to TOC two minutes. 24 I caught that you were 10-8. 25
2231 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Okay. Did you recognize any of the 5 voices? 6 A: I believe again, that I was Charlie. 7 Q: All right. And the last line, did 8 you -- did you hear something a little differently? It 9 says: 10 "I caught that you were 10-8." 11 Did you -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: What did you hear? 14 A: Again I believe that's what I heard. 15 Q: Oh. Not, I thought that you were 10- 16 8? Okay. You couldn't tell? All right. 17 And 10-8 means what? 18 A: In service, moving. 19 Q: Okay. And in fact are you about two 20 (2) minutes from the TOC at this point? 21 A: Well, that's what I said so -- it's 22 more than a two (2) minute drive around there so we would 23 have been mobile and we were two (2) minutes away from 24 the TOC. 25 Q: Okay. And make that the next exhibit
2241 please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1413, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1413: Transcript of September 06, 5 1995. 21:59 hrs, track number 6 2159. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: And finally the -- the last radio 10 transmission of this series, 22:01. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 September 6, 1995 14 22:01 15 Track # 2201 16 17 Lima Two Charlie. 18 Unit calling Lima Two 19 Yeah Lima Two Charlie, we're at the TOC right now. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: All right. And again did you 25 recognize the voice -- any of the voices?
2251 A: I believe that was Officer Zacher 2 that said we were there. 3 Q: Okay. And so at 22:01 then your 4 unit is now at TOC? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. Let's make this the next 7 exhibit please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1414. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1414: Transcript of September 06, 11 1995. 22:01 hrs. track 12 number 2201. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Yeah. And if we would just correct 16 the typo last line. It says, We're at the TAC right now 17 but it should be TOC, T-O-C. Thank you. 18 All right. Now, so we have you placed at 19 the TOC at approximately 22:01. What did you do when you 20 arrived at the TOC? 21 A: When I -- we arrived at the TOC we 22 were given some instructions to -- we were going to be 23 forming part of a Crowd Management Unit and I was given 24 some instructions to put together an arrest team of eight 25 (8) members including myself.
2261 Q: All right. And did you so -- did you 2 do so? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: Who were the other members of the 5 arrest team? 6 A: I'll have to refer to my notes. 7 Q: Certainly. If you go to Tab 6. 8 A: The arrest team consisted of Officers 9 Root, Ternovan, Myers, Zacher, Poole, Bittner, Aitchison, 10 and myself. 11 Q: All right. And just for the record 12 that is at page -- I believe that's 93 of your notes 13 under the September 6th entry, twenty-seven (27) pages 14 into the document. 15 And it -- there's a reference beside 16 Bittner and Aitchison to number 2, is that -- were they 17 with the Number 2 District? 18 A: That's correct. What page did you 19 read that? 20 Q: Well, it's -- I'm assuming it's page 21 93 -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- of your notes. All right. 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And had you functioned as part of the
2271 Crowd Management Unit prior to this? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And had you functioned as 4 part of an arrest team prior to this? 5 A: Operationally, no. 6 Q: But when you say, "operationally, no" 7 what... 8 A: In training, yes. 9 Q: All right. Fair enough. And what 10 was your specific role on the arrest team that evening? 11 A: I was one (1) of the eight (8) 12 members but I was assigned as the element or group 13 leader. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And just -- just for clarification 19 when you say you had been on a Crowd Management Unit 20 before was that in an actual deployment or in training? 21 A: In training, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. All right. And 23 can you tell us what the -- the general purpose and 24 function of the arrest team was that night? 25 A: Well, the arrest team can play many
2281 roles. That particular night by virtue of it's name, 2 arrest team, the officer is more mobile, can go and 3 actually make arrests and remove people from the civil 4 disobedience situation. 5 Also, if for example an officer had been 6 injured or was down that team now could become a rescue 7 or -- unit as well. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: As well as the rear element, you also 10 provide protection to the back part of the Crowd 11 Management Unit. 12 Q: Okay, now you indicated that you were 13 the rear element, can you just tell us generally what -- 14 what were the other elements of the CMU? 15 A: Yes. there's a -- a left contact 16 squad, there's a center or a contact squad in the middle, 17 one on the right and then the arrest team's positioned at 18 the rear. And in the middle of that unit there is your 19 commanders and kind of like the brains of the -- the 20 group. 21 Q: The command structure? 22 A: And in this particular situation, 23 there was two (2) dog teams deployed behind us. 24 Q: All right. And anything else, any 25 other vehicles behind the dog -- the K-9 unit?
2291 A: Yeah. On this particular -- at this 2 time -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- there was two (2) prisoner vans 5 that were following up behind us. 6 Q: Okay. All right. And what's the 7 role of the K-9 unit teams? 8 A: Well, K-9 at -- is to do rear 9 protection again, of the units. That they will -- 10 they're a deterrent, obviously, to protect the back of 11 the unit or also at the flanks, the sides, and to gain or 12 hold ground that is gained, to assist in that. 13 Q: All right. And as elements leader of 14 the arrest team, what was your -- what -- how does that 15 distinguish your role from the other arrest team members? 16 A: There's -- there's really not a big 17 distinction. There has to be somebody that -- that will 18 do the talking on the radio, so everybody's not doing it 19 and somebody to take the lead role. 20 Q: All right. And how does your role -- 21 does your role interact with the leader of the CMU and 22 then the -- the Command Post? 23 A: The -- 24 Q: The Incident Commander. 25 A: -- CMU leader who, in this incident
2301 was Staff Sergeant Lacroix, so I would have got -- when 2 we had a briefing there would have been some general 3 discussions but as far as my role with the incident 4 command, I have -- I have no contact with that person. 5 Q: And can you just tell us in a general 6 way what principles govern -- govern the making of an 7 arrest including whether or not an arrest will be made? 8 A: The -- it -- you know, it depends on 9 the situation, obviously. If there's -- if a crowd or if 10 there's criminal offences that have occurred and you have 11 reasonable probable grounds to make an arrest, then the 12 arrest team could make an arrest based on the 13 circumstances. 14 Q: All right. And did you receive any 15 particular instructions in advance that evening with 16 respect to determining the circumstances under which an 17 arrest would be carried out? 18 A: Again, if -- if the -- if the 19 occasion arose that people were arrested, that they 20 didn't comply with the reason we were attending that 21 location and there was a necessity to arrest somebody, as 22 police officers, you know what the grounds are, then 23 therefore the grounds exist and you arrested somebody, we 24 would take control of that person. 25 Q: All right. And I understand that
2311 there are different ways in which arrests can be 2 effected, depending upon the subject and his or her 3 demeanour. 4 Can you tell me, in general ways, the 5 manners in which effects -- arrests can be properly 6 affected, depending on the nature or the demeanour of the 7 subject? 8 A: Yes. There's a -- a lot of factors 9 to be considered. First of all, police officers that are 10 sworn, in most cases your mere presence to a situation 11 could de-escalate the situation. 12 From my policing experience, most people 13 that I deal with that I have arrested in the past, when 14 they recognize me as being a police officer and I advise 15 them of such, they're compliant. 16 Therefore, it would be pretty casual, you 17 know. Then we'd go through the arrest procedures and the 18 advise person of the reason of the arrest, read them 19 their rights to Counsel and caution them. 20 Q: And that would effect the -- the 21 reasonableness of any -- or the degree of force that you 22 would use? 23 A: Yes. When I -- if you arrest a 24 compliant person, you're to identify yourself as a police 25 officer, physically touch the person and advise them of
2321 the reasons for arrest. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And then under the Charter, read them 4 their rights and caution. 5 Q: And I understand what is the -- the 6 reasonable use of force assessment if the person is 7 passively resisting as opposed to compliant. 8 A: If the person's passively resistant 9 it may require a different use of level force. The fact 10 that I would touch somebody would be considered a use of 11 force on a compliant person. 12 On a passive resistant it may take an open 13 hand technique. You may have to put the person into an 14 arm hold or ask him to step against a wall with their 15 hands behind their back. It's just a little bit more 16 personable. 17 Q: All right. And if a person is 18 actively resisting, then what -- what governs the 19 exercise of force? 20 A: All that's governed on the person 21 being arrested, it's behaviour obviously. If the person 22 now becomes assaultive or actively resistant, then 23 there's other options you have open to you. And if open- 24 hand techniques aren't working, then there's other 25 options such as a baton, aerosol spray; that would be the
2331 next step. 2 Q: All right. And is there a particular 3 process followed when a person is arrested? 4 A: Yes, there is. 5 Q: And -- and what is that and how do 6 you refer to that? 7 A: Well, when -- when you arrest a 8 person, you have to consider what I would always refer to 9 ee-i-ee-i-o. It's kind of like a little saying I guess, 10 a little rhyme. 11 But when you arrest somebody but I'm going 12 with RICS and the four (4) P's. If you arrest somebody 13 you're doing it for a reason. 14 'R' standing for, you want to stop the 15 repetition of the offence. 16 'I' you want to identify the accused. 17 'C' you want to make sure the person goes 18 to court. You want secure you with the evidence. 19 'S' is the safety of any witnesses or 20 other people in the area. 21 And then you have to consider what we call 22 the 4 P's. We have to protect the public, protect the 23 property, protect the public peace and protect the 24 accused. 25 Q: All right. And once you have
2341 affected an arrest, whose responsibility is it to 2 determine what should now be done with the arrested 3 person? 4 A: In most cases it's the investigating 5 officer, the officer in charge. 6 Q: All right. Now with respect to the 7 arrest team of that evening, you said it consisted of 8 eight (8) members, is that a standard -- the standard 9 compliment for an arrest team? 10 A: I believe so. 11 Q: All right. And I -- I take it that 12 had -- well, had this arrest team ever been deployed with 13 the CMU before into actual operation? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And what -- can you tell us what 16 uniforms your team was wearing that night? 17 A: Yes. My recollection is that we were 18 wearing a grey tactical uniform. As far as protective 19 equipment goes and that was fully marked OPP, flashes and 20 Police on the back. 21 Q: It was? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. So you had the emblems and 24 were you wearing a cap that night? 25 A: No. We -- at some point -- we went
2351 into what I'm going to call hardtac; we wore helmet, 2 protective helmet. 3 Q: When was that? Was that prior to 4 deployment? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And can you be more 7 complete with respect to what the hardtac consisted of? 8 A: It was just -- it's just a layering 9 of metal protective equipment so it consisted of shin 10 guards, thigh guards, forearm guards and a helmet. 11 Q: Okay. Did you have a visor? 12 A: It had -- the helmet is equipped with 13 a visor, yes. 14 Q: All right. And did you have a 15 shield? 16 A: The arrest team did not have shields. 17 Q: Okay. And what -- what equipment or 18 well what equipment did you have with you? 19 A: As far as -- a duty belt with all my 20 use of force options on it. 21 Q: Which were? 22 A: Sidearm, OC spray, a 26 inch 23 collapsible baton, handcuffs and I had an MK-9 pepper 24 fogger. 25 Q: So the C spray, as I understand it
2361 is, the pep -- pepper spray but in the small cannister? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And the fogger is a larger cannister 4 of pepper -- 5 A: It's just a bigger virg -- version of 6 the small one. 7 Q: Okay. And what sidearm were you 8 carrying? 9 A: A Sig Sauer P-229. 10 Q: All right. And you indicated that 11 you had a -- a baton; what kind of a baton was it? 12 A: The manufacturer is ASP. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: That's just the manufacturer's name. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. And when did you -- when 16 were you issued the ASP baton? 17 A: On the evening of the -- September 18 6th. 19 Q: Had you ever used it before? 20 A: We had some -- we had some training 21 with the ASP or that -- that baton that night. Prior to 22 that we carried the 26 inch wooden baton. 23 Q: Right. Okay. And so you'd had some 24 training that evening with the ASP baton and -- and 25 that's it?
2371 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Okay. And can you just tell me very 3 briefly, distinguish or describe an ASP baton and how it 4 compared with the 26 inch wood or I believe it was a 5 hickory baton? 6 A: Really the only -- the major 7 difference is is they're both 26 inches in length. The - 8 - the ASP or the metal baton collapses down into a baton, 9 like a third of that size. It's in segments when you 10 open it up so it's easier to carry; it's not as 11 cumbersome. 12 As far as the use of it, it doesn't -- it 13 wasn't any different than the -- the wooden baton. 14 Q: All right. And what was the material 15 of the ASP baton? 16 A: It's steel. 17 Q: Steel? And did you have any sense as 18 to the comparative impact I guess when using an ASP or 19 striking at a person with an ASP baton versus the same 20 type of strike with a wooden baton? Was there any 21 difference? 22 A: I don't believe there's any 23 difference. 24 Q: And just to be clear you had never 25 had any training on the ASP baton before that evening?
2381 A: That's correct. 2 Q: They were newly issued? 3 A: To us. 4 Q: To you, okay. And did you have any 5 separate night vision capability that night? 6 A: The arrest team? 7 Q: The arrest team? 8 A: No, we did not. 9 Q: All right. And did you have any 10 separate or independent -- any -- any direct radio 11 communication capability for the arrest team? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. So you didn't have -- you 14 -- you couldn't hear the TAC transmissions or anything 15 like -- 16 A: Oh, I misunderstood you. We were -- 17 we still had our radios so we were on the same channel -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- as everybody else. 20 Q: All right. And were those radios -- 21 did they function down -- on -- on the deployment? 22 A: Yes, they did. 23 Q: All right. 24 All right. And who was your superior -- 25 direct superior in the field?
2391 A: As part of the CMU? 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: The team leader or the element 4 leader, or the CMU leader was Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 5 Q: All right. And just to be clear on 6 the radio communications point were -- were -- would you 7 have been able to overhear any communications from or to 8 the TRU team? 9 A: I don't believe so. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Perhaps we should take the break, I 15 hadn't noticed the time. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 18 for fifteen (15) minutes. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 2:51 a.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 3:07 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed. Please be seated. 25
2401 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: All right. Now, at the TOC were you 5 briefed individually in advance of your team, with 6 respect to what the deployment would consist of? 7 A: I recall talking to Staff Sergeant 8 Lacroix just for a very short period of time. 9 Q: And what did he advise you about the 10 task? 11 A: At that time, just a number of people 12 that would be in the arrest team and that I would be the 13 person leading the arrest team. 14 Q: So the element leader? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: All right. And then was there a 17 further or was there a briefing that involved your -- the 18 members of your arrest team? 19 A: Yes, there was. 20 Q: And who all attended at that 21 briefing? Was there anyone in addition to the arrest 22 team? 23 A: I don't recall, but I did brief the 24 arrest team. 25 Q: You briefed the arrest team?
2411 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And what did you tell 3 them? 4 A: The specifics at that time I -- I 5 don't recall but we -- there was discussion on what the 6 order of dress would be and everybody partnered up. 7 Q: The order of what? 8 A: The order of dress. The uniform that 9 would be worn. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: What equipment. 12 Q: All right. And prior to deployment, 13 did you receive any other instruction as to what the game 14 plan was? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And who -- who gave you 17 those instructions? 18 A: I believe it was Staff Sergeant 19 Lacroix. 20 Q: All right. And who was in 21 attendance? 22 A: I believe the CMU. 23 Q: The whole CMU. All right. And was 24 the TRU team present? 25 A: I don't recall.
2421 Q: And tell me as carefully as you can, 2 your understanding of what the game plan was as 3 communicated by Sergeant Lacroix. 4 A: The -- the intersection of Army Camp 5 Road and East Parkway Road had been occupied by 6 protesters and they were blocking the public access road 7 which was at a location they had set up outside the 8 perimeter of the Provincial Park and that we were going 9 to go down to that location to clear the intersection of 10 people and property. 11 Q: All right. And just so I understand 12 the location of the area that you were going to clear, 13 was that at the bottom of East Parkway Drive and Army 14 Camp Road? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What I'm calling it the bottom of it; 17 in the sandy parking lot area? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: All right. And were you given any 20 information as to what you should be prepared to expect 21 in the form of resistence or in form of the First Nations 22 protesters? 23 A: I don't remember the specifics of it. 24 Q: All right. Were you given any 25 direction with respect to any limitations to the task?
2431 A: We were just going to clear the 2 intersection at that time. 3 Q: Did you receive any instructions 4 about whether or not you would, under any circumstances, 5 go into the Park? 6 A: Oh. The -- that was very clear. 7 Under no circumstances we would go into the Park. 8 Q: And would you -- were you given any 9 special direction with respect to the rules of 10 engagement, if you will, with any First Nations 11 protesters you might encounter in the sandy parking lot? 12 A: The -- the rules of engagement are -- 13 I don't particularly like that phrase. If -- if there's 14 contact made then you would go through those steps of use 15 of force options that's -- we discussed prior. 16 Q: All right. And were you -- did you 17 know that the TRU team was also being deployed? 18 A: I -- I was aware of that, yes. 19 Q: And what was the extent of your 20 knowledge about the TRU team's role for that deployment? 21 A: That they were providing cover. 22 Q: All right. Now do you recall whether 23 or not it was discussed in your presence, that -- that 24 the Sierra teams would be deployed in advance of the CMU? 25 A: I don't recall that.
2441 Q: All right. Were you familiar with 2 the Sierra teams? 3 A: At that time? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: No. 6 Q: No. Okay. Was there any discussion 7 in your presence about the CMU being deployed to act as a 8 diversionary tactic to facilitate the TRU team's 9 deployment? 10 A: I wasn't aware of the plan that 11 existed like that. 12 Q: All right. Inspector Skinner 13 testified at this Inquiry that there essentially three 14 (3) plans with respect to the CM -- with respect to the 15 deployment that evening. 16 The first step was to deploy the Sierra 17 teams to have a look at what might be going on at the 18 sandy parking lot and in the kiosk. And then based on 19 that observation or those observations, there would be a 20 decision as to whether or not to deploy the CMU. 21 Were you apprised of that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: He also testified that when the 24 Sierra team could not be invisibly deployed, it was 25 discussed that the -- the CMU would be deployed and was
2451 employed initially as a distraction to allow the 2 invisible deployment of the Sierra team. 3 Were you aware of that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And then finally that the CMU's -- 6 the final plan was to clear the sandy parking lot of any 7 First Nations protest -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, Mr. 9 Commissioner, Sergeant Skinner was absolutely clear and 10 we can look at his evidence that he was not aware of any 11 such final plan. There was nothing that emanated from 12 TOC that went beyond what My Friend has so far said. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well with respect, 14 there was the notes in his notebook, Plan 1, 2 and 3 that 15 we went through. But in any event -- okay. Let me see 16 if I can handle this a different way. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Your understanding in any event from 20 the outset prior to deployment, was that the CMU's 21 mission, if you will, was to go to the sandy parking lot 22 and to clear it of any First Nations protesters who might 23 be there. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And there were no qualifications or
2461 limitations attached to that -- that direction? 2 A: No. No, we were going to go down to 3 the sandy parking lot and clear that intersection, yes. 4 Q: All right. Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: All right. To your knowledge was 9 there any plan to set up a checkpoint in the vicinity of 10 the sandy parking lot? 11 A: I wasn't aware of that. 12 Q: Were you provided with any -- okay, 13 sorry. 14 Now as at the time that you were in the -- 15 in the TOC then you were aware of there having been a 16 bonfire set in the Park based on the radio transmissions? 17 A: That -- yes. 18 Q: And that -- that there had been fifty 19 (50) to a hundred (100) rounds of fire -- of gunfire 20 shots the night before? 21 A: I was aware of that, yes. 22 Q: Were you aware of a report involving 23 a civilian's car having made contact with First Nations 24 people -- or sorry -- yeah, with First Nations people? 25 A: I was aware of that, yes.
2471 Q: And -- and just -- what was the 2 extent of your knowledge on that point? 3 A: Is the same person we talked about at 4 -- when I was at Checkpoint Charlie? 5 Q: That's right. 6 A: That a -- yeah, the information I 7 learned later, it was a member of Kettle Point that had 8 his vehicle damaged by people from the Park. 9 Q: All right. But at the time that you 10 were in the TOC just ready to be deployed, did you have 11 any further details about that incident? 12 A: About that incident? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Not that I can recall. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And were you aware as to whether or 19 not there had been any stacking, if you will, or 20 collecting of -- of weapons of any kind within the Park? 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: And what was the extent of your 23 knowledge on that? 24 A: The information that I had heard -- 25 received was that a -- a large number of rocks had been
2481 gathered or dropped off in that area, that there was a 2 school bus in that area, a back hoe had been working, 3 appeared to be digging, maybe fortifying positions in 4 that area. 5 I was aware earlier a vehicle had been 6 stopped and turned backed. The occupants had -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry, Mr. 8 Commissioner, Ms. Vella's question properly routed the 9 initial question about what had heard in TOC and it's 10 unclear as this officer's now going on where this is 11 coming from, observations, something he heard on the 12 radio or anything else. I -- I don't know anymore. I 13 just -- I thought for the record it ought to be clear. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think My Friend 15 misheard my question. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: My question really was 18 with respect to what information did you have with 19 respect to these matters just prior to your deployment? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 21 you were deployed? 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: So I think -- is that 25 what you're telling me?
2491 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he's 2 listing it. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. And perhaps -- 5 THE WITNESS: Is that all right? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I -- My -- My 8 Friend's quite right. I -- I understand her point. 9 Could -- could the officer indicate where the information 10 he got came from because otherwise -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I mean there's 13 no points of reference. I suppose it can all be covered 14 in cross-examination but there's -- this would be helpful 15 for the record if we knew where this information came 16 from. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 18 you're right. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think it had been 20 covered earlier but I can repeat that. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It has. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Why don't we complete the list while 25 you are -- you're there, the reports with respect to the
2501 -- the rocks, et cetera? 2 A: Well -- 3 Q: Sorry, the car being turned away, 4 excuse me. 5 A: Through radio transmissions I believe 6 when I was privy to conversations on the air earlier. 7 Q: Like the ones that we listened to? 8 A: That's correct. The -- yeah. Most 9 of the information I had just prior to that had came 10 through the checkpoints of people reporting plus 11 observations that I made where I was. It was -- it was 12 quite obvious that with the vehicle traffic, and I did 13 see the dump truck going back and forth on several 14 occasions, it appeared to me that supplies I guess, for 15 lack of a better term, were being brought in or... 16 Q: All right. And you mentioned 17 knowledge about a bonfire or bonfires. Could you just be 18 a little more specific about what was -- you knew about 19 bonfires? 20 A: On the -- on the evening of the 6th I 21 -- I don't recall the -- the -- specifically the 22 information of the bonfire. I believe the information 23 there was a bonfire; I believe it was in the Park. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: But I don't have specific
2511 recollection of that. 2 Q: Okay. And you don't recall the 3 source of that information at this time? 4 A: I do not. 5 Q: I believe you testified as to the 6 source of your information with respect to the fifty (50) 7 to a hundred (100) rounds of gunfire, we listened to that 8 radio transmission? 9 A: That was personal contact or voice 10 communications I had with Larry Parks on the evening of 11 the 5th. 12 Q: All right. And the comment or the 13 information that women and children have left the Park 14 and Army Camp? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Now, that came from where? 17 A: That came from one (1) of the 18 checkpoints, I believe it was Delta. 19 Q: All right. And the -- the collection 20 or gathering of the weapons in the Park, where did that - 21 - what was the source of your information for that? 22 A: I believe it was through radio 23 transmissions. 24 Q: All right. And was there any -- any 25 representations made to you during the course of the
2521 briefing with respect to whether or not there was a -- a 2 concern that there might be firearms in -- used against 3 the CMU during the course of this deployment? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what was that? Can you tell us 6 what was told? 7 A: I don't remember what specifically 8 was told but I know there was a -- a likelihood or a very 9 viable threat that there could be weapons involved. 10 Q: In the form of firearms? 11 A: In the form of firearms, yes. 12 Q: And was it anymore specific than that 13 in terms of type of firearms? 14 A: I don't know if I got that 15 information during the briefing or if it's from a prior 16 knowledge. 17 Q: And were you aware as to what -- what 18 the lighting conditions would be as you -- as, you know, 19 as you deployed down Army Camp -- sorry, down East 20 Parkway Drive to the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what -- what were they? 23 A: It was -- it was very dark. 24 Q: Was there any lighting? 25 A: Not initially, no. From us, moving
2531 down the road, no, there was not. 2 Q: And did you receive any, if you will, 3 refresher training by -- by Officer Hebblethwaite while 4 you were waiting in the TOC to be deployed, concerning 5 CMU commands and formations? 6 A: I don't recall any specific 7 instructions. 8 Q: All right. All right. And do you 9 recall what formation you were in and where you were in 10 that formation on the initial deployment? So in other 11 words, what was the formation in the TOC site? 12 A: When we started moving down the road 13 the formation, as I recall, it was a cordon formation 14 (phonetic). 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: My position was at the back, and I'd 17 be basically at the back middle. 18 Q: In the center of the back element 19 of -- 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. And approximately how 22 many persons or police officers were in this formation, 23 do you know? 24 A: I don't recall the specific numbers. 25 Q: All right. And do you recall
2541 approximately what time you commenced the deployment? 2 A: Approximately 10:30 -- between 10:30 3 and 11:00. 4 Q: All right. And did you relieve -- 5 receive any last minute instructions of any sort, just 6 prior to exiting the TOC site? 7 A: I don't recall any specific last 8 minute instructions. 9 Q: Okay. All right. And can you just 10 tell us, as -- as carefully as you can from your 11 recollection, what transpired as you deployed down East 12 Parkway Drive? 13 A: We -- we left East Parkway Drive. We 14 were heading eastbound on East Parkway Road, Boulevard, 15 whatever, and we had shook out into the formation as I 16 described, the cordon, to the best of my recollection. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: We proceeded up the road fairly slow, 19 as I recall. There was -- I do recall some information 20 coming in or on the radio of -- of a threat up ahead, a 21 possible threat. 22 Q: What was that threat as described? 23 A: My recollection is it's a possibility 24 of somebody with a firearm being observed. 25 Q: And what happened upon receipt of
2551 that information? 2 A: I believe we moved to either side of 3 the road and took a knee. 4 Q: Okay. And then what happened? 5 A: We -- I'm not sure how long we were 6 in that position and then I believe an all clear was 7 given and we formed back up in the cordon formation and 8 continued on down the road. 9 Q: And did you have any -- were you -- 10 have -- were you aware of the presence of the TRU team at 11 this time? 12 A: I could observe some of the TRU team 13 members, yes. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. And could you -- did you 15 observe any First Nations members as you were marching 16 down or walking down the street? 17 A: Eventually, yes. 18 Q: Eventually, okay. All right. And 19 what happened next? 20 A: We -- we proceeded towards the sandy 21 parking of the intersection. The road's kind of windy, 22 narrow, very dark, very narrow. When we came into what I 23 would call view of that intersection, at first I observed 24 a group of people in the -- in that intersection. 25 Q: Could you observe what they were
2561 doing? 2 A: It was very difficult from my 3 observation point to see. 4 Q: All right. Because there were a 5 number of officers in front of you? 6 A: There was -- yeah, a large number of 7 officers in front of me. 8 Q: And again, what was the visibility in 9 terms of the sandy parking lot? 10 A: The -- the visibility at that time 11 was -- was hindered by darkness obviously. And then 12 people on the other side of the fence started shining 13 spotlights into our eyes which created temporary night 14 blindness when the light hit your eyes. 15 Q: Okay. All right. And once you 16 reached the sandy parking lot, the edge of it, what did 17 you -- what -- what did the unit do? 18 A: What I recall I think there was some 19 shield chatter that was directed over the air. 20 Q: And what's that? 21 A: It's just a tapping of the baton on 22 the side of the shield. 23 Q: Okay. And then? What -- what was 24 the reaction of the First Nations? Were they still in 25 the -- the parking lot?
2571 A: I -- I believe so, yes. 2 Q: All right. And what happened next? 3 A: I didn't have a shield, didn't have a 4 baton, so I mean, I was standing there obviously. Can I 5 just refer to my notes? 6 Q: To your notes? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Certainly. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: You're referring to your statement? 13 A: I'm not sure which tab it's at. 14 Q: At Tab 25. This is Inquiry Document 15 Number 20003607 and perhaps we could just indicate... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Yeah, your notes are also -- there 20 are some notes at -- at Tab 6 with your handwritten 21 notes, but I think they're less detailed than the 22 statement that we're referring to. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Okay. And just, first of all, what 25 was the purpose of making this statement at Tab 25?
2581 A: That statement was given to Officer 2 Donaldson the morning after. 3 Q: At approximately 11:03, September 4 7th? 5 A: That is correct. 6 Q: And what was the purpose of this 7 interview? 8 A: For the investigators to get a 9 recollection of what transpired. 10 Q: All right. And did you make detailed 11 notes of the deployment in your notebook? 12 A: I did not. 13 Q: And why -- why didn't you? 14 A: I had no time to make notes. 15 Q: And -- all right, I'd like to make -- 16 first of all were the statements in this statement true 17 and accurate when you made them? 18 A: When I made them? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And do you adopt them as 22 being an accurate reflection of your recollection today? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. I'd like to make the 25 statement then, Inquiry Document 2003607 the next
2591 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1415, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1415: Document Number 2003607. OPP 5 interview of Wayde Jacklin 6 and handwritten interview 7 statement, September 07, 8 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: And has this refreshed your memory at 12 tall with respect to what transpired as the shield 13 chatter was going on and -- and the unit was at the edge 14 of the sandy parking lot? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Because I don't refer to shield 18 chatter in the statement. 19 Q: All right. Fair enough. Okay, well 20 what -- what happened then? 21 A: The -- like as I said, is we 22 approached the intersection I observed high power 23 spotlights shining at us which I believe there was two 24 (2) of them and -- and I believed at that time was when 25 the shield chatter took place.
2601 And it appeared that the people in the 2 intersection had -- had fled the intersection. 3 Q: All right. So they -- where did they 4 go? 5 A: I believe back into the Park. 6 Q: All right. And then what ha -- what 7 was the next step? 8 A: Another observation I made at that 9 time was that there was a bus parked on the -- on the -- 10 in the Park with its headlights on shining in our 11 direction. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: When this -- after people took off, 14 the Crowd Control Unit team stopped. And then a short 15 time later after we stopped, several more people came or 16 a few people came back into the intersection area. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: And I have noted here that they came 19 out between the Crowd Control Unit and the arrest team; 20 that's wasn't accurate. 21 Q: What is accurate? 22 A: They were in front of the Crowd 23 Control team; they weren't in between us. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And I observed at least -- or I
2611 observed one (1) person I described as a -- a Native 2 Canadian male on the intersection side of the fence with 3 what appeared to me to be a large stick in his hand. 4 And I also noted that there was a large 5 group of people, Natives, on the Park side of the fence 6 and -- and then rocks, we started receiving some incoming 7 rocks. 8 Q: All right. And where is the Crowd 9 Management Unit positioned at this moment? 10 A: Where are we? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: We'd be near the sandy park -- around 13 the sandy parking lot area. 14 Q: Okay. But are you on the edge or 15 actually on -- in -- inside the sandy parking lot? 16 A: I believe we -- the forward elements 17 we're probably into the sandy parking lot. 18 Q: All right. Okay. And what happened 19 next? 20 A: The -- one of the elements of the 21 Crowd Unit were moved forward to arrest people outside 22 the fence and as they moved forward or punched out, I'll 23 refer to it as -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- the people that were occupying
2621 that area ran back into the Park. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: From what I could see. 4 Q: And then what did the -- and what 5 were you doing during this time? 6 A: Actually, we had moved a little bit 7 back in the arrest element the -- because we didn't have 8 proper, adequate protection to protect ourselves against 9 the rocks that were -- we were now receiving. 10 Q: Okay. So these are the front 11 elements that are engaging? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: Okay. All right, and then after the 14 punchout and the First Nations persons went back into the 15 Park, what happened? 16 A: There was -- there was no contact. 17 They ran back into the Park. We were then -- we started 18 to withdraw or reverse. 19 Q: Okay. So reverse back towards the 20 TOC? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: All right. And then what happened? 23 A: As we -- as we started to return, at 24 that time I believe we were leaving, the mission had been 25 accomplished, basically. The area was clear.
2631 As we were moving back, then, the skies 2 kind of opened up with rocks. And then the projectiles 3 really increased. 4 Q: All right. And what were the 5 projectiles; were they all rocks? 6 A: At that time my recollection is that 7 they were -- they were rocks. I don't recall anything 8 other than rocks at that particular time. 9 Q: Okay. And how did the unit respond? 10 A: The unit was stopped. Again, I had 11 directed our element back a little bit because we, again, 12 we didn't have a shield. 13 And there was, you know, there was great 14 concern for the safety of everybody but we did not have a 15 shield to protect our -- ourselves as well as others. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: The -- when this was going on the 18 intersection appeared to fill up with people again. 19 Again it was difficult for me where I was -- where I was 20 to see, because now there was a lot of commotion and 21 there was a lot of movement in the -- in the sandy 22 parking lot area which kicked up a lot of dust. 23 The rocks were coming in. It was kind of 24 pandemonium actually. We were -- had the spotlights were 25 in our eyes, the bus lights were in our eyes, it was very
2641 difficult to see. 2 And the element, the whole CMU unit in the 3 front advanced forward quickly to apprehend people. 4 Q: Okay. All right. And then what hap 5 -- what did you observe next? 6 A: From where I was at the back, I 7 observed a number of clashes between CMU members and 8 protesters in the intersection. 9 Q: And when you say flashes what do you 10 mean? 11 A: Clashes. 12 Q: Oh, clashes. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Excuse me. Okay. All right, so 15 direct contact? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: While this was going on, my focus was 19 really drawn and I -- and I believe it came across here 20 but I'm not certain that there was a person down up 21 front. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: And I did observe somebody on the 24 ground up front. As a result of that I directed the 25 arrest team to move forward to that location which we
2651 did. 2 Q: Can you just tell us in -- in a 3 general way where that person was in relation to the -- 4 the sandy parking lot using whatever markers make sense 5 to -- 6 A: Well, it's -- it's hard for me. I 7 believe it was in the sandy parking lot. I'm -- I'm 8 quite certain of that. From the location that I was 9 positioned, whether the person was left or right but 10 pretty well -- pretty well straight ahead of where I was 11 we didn't have to deviate very far from where -- where I 12 was to move forward. 13 Q: All right. And how many metres away 14 was that? 15 A: That we moved forward? 16 Q: No, no, that you were -- when you saw 17 the man down? How many metres separated you from the 18 man? 19 A: Oh, thirty (30) to fifty (50). 20 Q: Thirty (30) to fifty (50)? 21 A: Metres, yes. 22 Q: All right. And you were -- where 23 were you positioned when you first saw him? 24 A: I was in the middle of our arrest 25 team.
2661 Q: In the what? 2 A: In -- in the middle. There was eight 3 (8) of us across -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- and I would have been -- you can't 6 really get in the middle of eight (8) but in the center. 7 Q: Okay. But physically within the 8 sandy parking lot where were you? 9 A: We were probably up near the edge. 10 Q: The edge to -- 11 A: Well, I -- I'm not sure exactly where 12 we were standing at that point. 13 Q: Okay. All right. But in any event 14 outside of the physical contact that was going on? 15 A: That's right, 30 to 50 metres. 16 Q: Okay. All right. And so you see 17 this man on the ground, what else did you observe about 18 the man at that time? 19 A: There was a -- from what I observed 20 there were some officers engaged with that person and we 21 may -- I directed our team to move forward at that time. 22 Q: And when you say you saw some persons 23 "engaged" with that man who were the persons? 24 A: I have no idea. 25 Q: Were they police officers?
2671 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And where were they positioned as 3 around the man? 4 A: They were with -- right with him 5 where he was. 6 Q: And was he standing or -- or what 7 position was the man in? 8 A: When I first observed him he was on 9 the ground. 10 Q: On the ground? And on -- on his 11 back, his side? Could you -- 12 A: I -- I couldn't tell initially from 13 where I was. 14 Q: Okay. And what did you -- did you 15 witness any interaction, physical interaction as between 16 the police officers and this man when you first saw him? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Well, what -- what did you 19 see? 20 A: I saw a man on the ground. There was 21 officers around where he was and as a result of that we 22 moved forward. 23 Q: All right. And as you approached the 24 man what did you observe? 25 A: Well, when I -- when we approached to
2681 where he was at there was a couple of officers that were 2 engaged in trying to, what I believe to be to apprehend 3 him, to arrest him. 4 Q: All right. And how -- what were they 5 doing in that attempt? 6 A: The -- the person who was on the 7 ground was kicking violently and thrashing, resisting 8 their attempts to gain control. When we got up to his 9 location one (1) of the roles of the arrest team are to 10 take over for, so I can only comment on what I did and 11 what I observed our arrest team members doing when I got 12 there because it was a short distance we -- or a short 13 period of time when we got up to him. 14 I cleared those officers or one (1) of the 15 officers out of the way to create a protective barrier 16 between the -- to create a protective barrier for the 17 person on the ground and our arrest team. 18 You've got to keep in mind at this time 19 the -- the volume of rocks and at this time I noted other 20 things being thrown at us as well, pipes, and it was 21 important that there was officer safety but it was also 22 important that we protect and get the person out of there 23 as soon as possible for everybody's protection. 24 Q: All right. Now, you said you had to 25 clear one (1) officer in particular away from the man,
2691 what -- what had he been doing just prior to your 2 arrival? 3 A: From what I observed he was trying to 4 apprehend the person. 5 Q: How though? How physically? 6 A: How physically? 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: I did see that officer kick the 9 person on the ground. 10 Q: All right. And was any officer on 11 top of this man when you approached them? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. All right. And did you observe 14 where he kicked the man? What -- what part of the body? 15 A: It appeared to me that he kicked him 16 in the lower body. 17 Q: Okay. All right. And did you see 18 any -- any other officers strike this man -- 19 A: No, I did not. 20 Q: -- in any way whatsoever? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you see any other officer make 23 any physical contact with this man of any kind? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Can you describe what you saw?
2701 A: Again like I said before, when the 2 arrest team arrived, my actions and the actions of the 3 arrest team at that time, we created a barrier. 4 I stepped forward of the person on the 5 ground because there was a lot of -- battles that were 6 really going on around us. So I was trying to protect 7 the area of officers and people getting pushed back into 8 us because there was other things going on like -- as I 9 described battles going on. 10 The arrest team members were trying to 11 handcuff and gain control of this person who was still 12 being very actively resisted -- resistive and assaultive 13 towards the officers. 14 Keeping in mind that I am just standing in 15 front of them but looking back. This whole contact we 16 had probably lasted a matter of seconds. 17 Q: Okay. And you said that this man was 18 -- was continuing to be actively resistant. When you saw 19 -- first of all -- can you identify the officer who you 20 saw kick him? 21 A: No, I can't. 22 Q: And in your judgment as a police 23 officer was the kicking reasonable -- 24 A: Under the circumstances, yes. 25 Q: And what is the basis for that?
2711 A: As I described earlier, the use of 2 force options open to you, keeping in mind that the 3 officer had a -- probably had a shield -- I believe he 4 had a shield in his hand -- 5 OBJ MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Excuse me, 6 Commissioner. My Friend asked the question whether the 7 use of force was reasonable. If she's referring to the 8 kicking, I object because the difficulty is according to 9 this officer's testimony, why he would have engaged in 10 the kicking in the first place is not something this 11 officer has personal knowledge of, unless I misunderstood 12 the question. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe the evidence 14 was that when he approached, this man was actively 15 resisting. And then I asked whether in his view, based 16 on what he saw, there was reasonable grounds for the 17 kick. 18 And the officer has indicated what his 19 evidence is in that respect. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So the 21 officer indicated -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He's indicated what his 23 evidence is that based on what he observed it was and he 24 was explaining why. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's just
2721 saying what he saw. That's all. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No. That's -- and 3 what he saw I wasn't objecting to at all. It's 4 qualifying his opinion of what another officer did, (a) 5 when there's no evidence of him communicating with the 6 other officer as to what his experience was and (b) in 7 light of the evidence it seems to me the only thing this 8 officer ought to be doing is saying what he saw. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 Just ask him what he saw for now. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well I -- I believe 12 that's what we have, and it's most appropriate in 13 response to My Friend to have another officer who was an 14 eye witness to the situation, explain what he saw and 15 give his views as to it. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: But in any event -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well it 19 depends on, I guess, again on how you ask that question. 20 Do you want to ask it again in a way that is just the way 21 you put it; like, not whether it was reasonable, but 22 what he saw. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:
2731 Q: Officer in the event that you saw an 2 excessive use of force applied against the person in the 3 course of an arrest, would you have any obligation to 4 report that? 5 A: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: In light of that answer then can you 10 tell me whether or not based on what you saw, the officer 11 -- the officer who kicked the man on the ground, was 12 using excessive force? 13 A: In my opinion he was not use -- using 14 excessive force due to the circumstances and the 15 situation at hand. 16 Q: And if you would explain just based 17 on what you saw, what factors you rely on in support of 18 that view. 19 A: The person on the ground was actively 20 resisting by kicking and flailing his arms and the 21 officer was responding to that with a use of force option 22 that was -- which was appropriate. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2741 Q: Now had you -- all right. And you 2 indicated that -- that members of your arrest team then 3 took over to apprehend this man? 4 A: That is correct. 5 Q: And what -- which officers were that? 6 A: I -- I don't know. 7 Q: And what was the state of this man 8 when the arrest team took over, in terms of his level of 9 compliance? 10 A: He was non compliant when we arrived. 11 At -- the person on the ground. 12 Q: And were the members of your team 13 able to successfully apprehend him? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how did they do that? 16 A: They tried to handcuff him, 17 physically restrain him. The situation had gone -- all 18 around us, what was going on was escalating by the 19 moment. 20 I directed the officers just to pick him 21 up and carry him to the rear. We had to get him out of 22 there. 23 Q: Was he handcuffed at the time that he 24 was picked up? 25 A: I don't know. I don't recall.
2751 Q: And what was the state of his 2 compliance as he was -- once he was picked up? 3 A: He was still being resistant. 4 Q: In what -- could you be more 5 specific? 6 A: I didn't -- I did not handle the 7 person, that I recall at all, so I can't comment on that. 8 Q: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Did you observe any other officer 13 strike this man in any way? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: And once he was apprehended, what 16 happened to him? 17 A: He was carried to the rear of the CMU 18 units. He was placed on the ground in the vicinity of 19 the prisoner van. I'm going to -- in short -- in close 20 proximity to the prisoner van. 21 I remove -- I gave a quick, cursory 22 physical check of the person at that time. 23 Q: All right. And when you say a quick, 24 physical, cursory check, what did that consist of? 25 A: It was quick, it was cursory. Visual
2761 observations. I noticed some cuts or cuts or cut around 2 his mouth, some -- some blood. 3 It -- 4 Q: Where was the blood? 5 A: I believe around the lips. 6 Q: Okay. Did you see anything -- any 7 other trauma? 8 A: I believe there was -- I did not know 9 this individual before, so -- so -- but it appeared to me 10 that he is -- he has some swelling to his face. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: He wasn't being actively resistant at 13 this time. 14 Q: Was he compliant at this time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Was he handcuffed by this 17 time? 18 A: I'm not sure. 19 Q: Okay. And where did you conduct this 20 observation? Was it outside or inside of a vehicle? 21 A: It was outside. 22 Q: Did you use a flashlight? 23 A: I did. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I had a small flashlight that I carry
2771 on my belt. I used it. 2 Q: And did you observe any other 3 evidence of trauma? 4 A: I did not. 5 Q: And as a result what, if anything, 6 did you direct? 7 A: I directed the person be put in the 8 rear of the prisoner van. I believe at that time -- I 9 don't know if before, but at that time I believe he was 10 handcuffed. He had handcuffs on him, that I recall. 11 I assigned one of the officers that were 12 with me from the arrest team to stay with him and that 13 was Officer Zacher. 14 Q: All right. And -- and did the van 15 leave at that point? 16 A: It did not. 17 Q: Okay. Now just before we leave that, 18 now, what -- did you make any observation with respect to 19 this man's state of -- of alertness? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what was your observation? 22 A: I'm not a medic or a doctor but he -- 23 when we got him to the rear I would say he was -- he was 24 still, but I believe he was conscious. 25 Q: And what's the basis of your belief
2781 that he was conscious? 2 A: Just he -- he was -- he was still 3 moving. He was still making some noise but it appeared to 4 me at that point he'd just kind of given up, like, 5 fighting; that was my impression. 6 Q: Were his eyes open or closed? 7 A: I think at times they were open, I 8 think at other times they were closed. 9 Q: And did you ask him any questions to 10 -- to try to determine his state of alertness? 11 A: Not that I recall. 12 Q: Was he placed under arrest at this 13 time? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And -- and why not? 16 A: Because things went -- got 17 increasingly violent and then things really went south. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: And there was no time. 20 Q: So just so I understand, at this 21 point in time is he inside or outside of the prisoner 22 van? 23 A: When I made the observation? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: He was outside.
2791 Q: All right. And was he placed, to 2 your knowledge, inside of the prisoner van? 3 A: He was placed inside the prisoner 4 van. 5 Q: But the prisoner van didn't leave? 6 A: I made attempts to get it to leave. 7 I had -- I recall I had asked for an ambulance, that I 8 had some concern. He was a person in my care, that I was 9 acting on the side of safety or caution -- was being 10 cautious so I'd asked for an ambulance and an -- there 11 was no way an ambulance was coming up that road with what 12 was going on in that intersection. 13 It was unsafe, it was unreasonable, 14 impractical and it wasn't going to happen. So it was 15 important that that vehicle get out of there as soon as 16 possible for everybody's safety and -- and then he should 17 be medically checked over. 18 Q: And did you relay that to the driver 19 of the van? 20 A: I sure did. 21 Q: And who was the driver? 22 A: There was two (2) drivers; there was 23 two (2) vans. Harry Marissen and Dennis Leblanc. 24 Q: Okay. And which -- which driver did 25 you speak to?
2801 A: I spoke to both. 2 Q: Okay. All right. And what happened 3 next? 4 A: I was trying to get -- relaying to 5 the drivers that the person needed to get back and get 6 some medical attention and in the process of kind of 7 bouncing back and forth between the two (2) prisoner 8 vans, keeping in mind that there's -- there's still a lot 9 of activity going on. 10 The -- and then basically all hell broke 11 out in front of us. I -- I heard yelling coming from out 12 on the road. At this time I was -- like I said I was 13 busy with the van drivers. I left that location. 14 It was important that I be now out with 15 the rest of the CMU to deal with what was taking place. 16 The driver had been given directions to get this person 17 out of there to medical attention. 18 At that point I turned that responsibility 19 over to him. I went to the road and I observed a large 20 yellow school bus now busting down the road into -- into 21 our -- where our CMU was. 22 Q: Okay. And just to be clear then you 23 were on what -- what road were you and the prisoner van 24 on? 25 A: East Parkway Drive.
2811 Q: Okay. So now you're looking back 2 over the sandy parking lot? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: All right. And when you saw the, 5 first of all, the yellow bus how -- how fast was it 6 going? Could you tell? 7 A: Initially? Not very fast. 8 Q: And did it have lights on? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: All right. And what was your 11 reaction when you saw the -- the bus in the sand -- well, 12 first of all did you see it exit the Park? 13 A: Yes. Did -- did I see -- I seen it 14 when -- I saw it when it was in the sandy parking lot 15 coming towards me. 16 Q: Okay. So it was -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- already in the sandy parking lot? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Okay. And what was your reaction? 21 A: It was one of disbelief due to what I 22 observed. 23 Q: All right. And -- and what happened 24 next? 25 A: Well, the reason why I disbelieved at
2821 the time because the bus was running at and driving 2 towards and trying to run over the officers that were on 3 the road. 4 Q: And that was your assessment of the 5 situation? 6 A: That's what I viewed. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: That's what I observed. 9 Q: And did -- did you view the bus make 10 contact with any of the officers? 11 A: I believed that the bus may have made 12 contact. Maybe I can explain that. 13 Q: Sure. 14 A: When the bus came out there were CMU 15 members on the road; I don't know how many. I was very 16 much focussed on that particular focal point at that time 17 with the bus and I saw a number of officers running and 18 diving out of the way of the moving bus as it came 19 towards them. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: These officers entered the ditch on 22 the south side of East Parkway Road. The bus went after 23 them. The -- by now, I'm standing in the middle of the 24 road. 25 The bus left. I'm going to describe the
2831 left wheels of the bus, the driver's side wheels went 2 down off the road and the bus was bouncing around, which 3 at that time, I believed that officers were being run 4 over, because I'd just seem them go to ground there, and 5 diving out of the way, and the bus followed them. 6 The bus then made a hard right swerving 7 motion back onto the road and I observed the bus strike a 8 street sign that was on the corner. 9 And then the bus came back into the middle 10 of the road. 11 Q: And this is still East Parkway Drive? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And that's where you are? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Then what happened? 16 A: I was still standing on the road. I 17 -- I hadn't jumped off the road. I don't recall where 18 the other CMU members were at that time. 19 But as the bus approached my location, my 20 thought at that time was how can I disable this bus, 21 because I didn't know where the location of the other 22 officers were. 23 So I -- I stood there in the road, and I 24 waited for the bus. 25 Q: And then what?
2841 A: I pulled out the pepper fogger from 2 my pocket and activated it and as the bus came towards 3 me, I side stepped the bus. 4 So I would have been on the passenger side 5 of the bus as the bus went by me. As the bus went by me, 6 I started running after the bus. 7 I don't know how fast the bus was going at 8 that time. I was at a light jog, maybe fifteen (15) 9 kilometres an hour, I don't know. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I -- I got in behind the bus. One 12 (1) thing that was distinctly clear to me that there was 13 no glass in the back door of that bus. 14 The back of the bus was illuminated; from 15 what, I don't know. But there was no glass. So I 16 activated the pepper fogger, put my hand in the back of 17 the bus and started activating that pepper fogger. 18 Q: And what -- why -- what was the 19 purpose of activating the pepper fogger? 20 A: I was trying to -- I was trying to 21 get that bus to stop. I just saw the bus try to take 22 officers' lives. 23 The driver was obviously bent on harming 24 police officers and I thought this may be one (1) of the 25 ways I could stop that bus.
2851 Q: All right. And based on your 2 observations, were you successful in that attempt? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. So what did you do next? 5 A: Well, the bus did stop. The bus 6 ended up stopping. I don't think it was because of me. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: The -- the bus did come to, as I'm 9 behind the bus, somebody appeared at the back of the bus 10 while I was there. 11 And they attempted to block the opening at 12 the back. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: What appeared to me to be a piece of 15 carpet or cardboard or something. This person was a, I 16 believe, a male. I would describe as being a teenager 17 size or larger, but it was difficult to make out a lot. 18 At that time, I thought it was best to 19 move away from the back of the bus. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: So I started running up the side of 22 the bus. 23 Q: On the passenger side still? 24 A: On the passenger side. 25 Q: Okay. And it's -- the bus has
2861 stopped right now? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No? 4 A: Initially it was still moving and 5 then it did come to a stop. 6 All -- this is all going on pretty quick. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: You gotta picture this. 9 Q: Yes. I'm trying to follow you, okay. 10 A: So once the person appeared at the 11 back, the bus does stop. I don't know where I was in the 12 process when I ran up the side of the bus, if the bus was 13 fully stopped or not, but it did come to a full stop. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: So I attend the -- the door on the 16 side of the bus in that area. I rode a school bus as a 17 kid, I know where the door is. 18 So I got to that location and I tried to 19 use the pepper fogger there as well. 20 I believe the door was intact so it 21 probably had no effect. 22 Q: Okay. At least you didn't view any 23 visible effect? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: All right. And then what happened?
2871 A: At that time, the bus was revving its 2 engine and the gears were kind of grinding. The bus 3 driver was obviously trying to put the bus into reverse. 4 The bus did go into reverse and reverse back in the same 5 direction it came. 6 Q: And what did you in response, if 7 anything? 8 A: I let it go. 9 Q: All right. Why is that? 10 A: The bus at that time wasn't a big 11 threat to me. You know, it was -- it was going away from 12 me and I'm not sure where the bus went from there. 13 Q: Okay. What if anything happened 14 next? 15 A: One (1) thing that I think is pretty 16 important, when this bus was coming out, when the word 17 first came down about a bus, I heard some yelling about a 18 gun. And -- and I did hear -- I did hear gunfire. 19 Q: And what position -- what direction 20 was the bus travelling when you heard the word 'gun' and 21 the gunfire? 22 A: Again this is all happening very 23 quick, very short period of time but the bus is always -- 24 always travelling I believe it was still moving forward. 25 Q: I'm sorry?
2881 A: Still moving forward which would be 2 west. 3 Q: All right so -- and was it on the 4 pavement or in the sandy parking lot when you heard this? 5 A: I'm not sure how far I travelled. 6 Again this is a -- this is a -- probably a ten (10) 7 second period of time. 8 Q: Well do you recall what you were 9 doing at the time you heard the word 'gun' followed by 10 gunfire? 11 A: In my notes I have that the bus was 12 in the process of reversing. But you've got to keep in 13 mind that this is all a very short period of time. So 14 just trying to separate the time, it's -- it's difficult 15 to say exactly where I was at that time. 16 Q: Do you recall whether this happened 17 before or after you discharged pepper spray? 18 A: I -- I believe it was after. 19 Q: All right. And did you see any -- 20 let me ask you this. When you heard the gunfire could 21 you tell how many shots you heard? 22 A: No. I -- 23 Q: Could you identify the source of the 24 gunshots? 25 A: No.
2891 Q: Did you see any muzzle flashes? 2 A: I -- I did see a muzzle flash after 3 the bus was reversing. 4 Q: And where was that emanating from? 5 A: My recollection is it was on the east 6 side of East Parkway Drive coming from the ditch area. 7 Sorry, the south side of East Parkway Drive. 8 Q: Okay. Is that the lake side or the 9 opposite side? 10 A: The opposite side. 11 Q: The opposite side? All right. And 12 were you able to identify whether or not the source of 13 the muzzle flash was -- who the source of it was? 14 A: No I was not. 15 Q: All right. And what happened after 16 you heard the gunfire? 17 A: It seemed like shortly after that the 18 whole world went still. Things got very quiet. 19 Q: All right. And where were the 20 officers at this point when everything gets quiet? 21 A: They'd scattered. They were all over 22 the place. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And the First Nations 24 people? 25 A: I didn't observe any at that time.
2901 Q: They were no longer in the sandy 2 parking lot? 3 A: To my best of my recollection I -- I 4 didn't even look at the sandy parking lot I don't 5 believe. 6 Q: You didn't look, okay. Now when -- 7 from whom did you hear the word 'gun'? 8 A: I have no idea. 9 Q: What did you interpret it to mean 10 when you heard it? 11 A: As a police officer when you hear the 12 word 'gun' that's the international signal I guess to, 13 you know, that things can't get much worse so you're -- 14 your heightened senses are -- are at the peak. 15 Q: All right. But did you take it to be 16 a warning? 17 A: Oh absolutely it is a warning when 18 somebody says 'gun'. 19 Q: So you -- you assumed that it came 20 from another police officer the word? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: All right. Now over the course of 23 this event, did you see any firearms in the hands of any 24 First Nations persons? 25 A: No, I did not.
2911 Q: Do you see any muzzle flashes 2 emanating from any First Nations persons? 3 A: I could not determine that. 4 Q: And how -- over what period of time 5 or what was the length of time over which you heard 6 gunshots? 7 A: I don't know. I -- I don't know. 8 Q: Could you distinguish the types of 9 firearms being discharged? 10 A: No, I could not. 11 Q: Or the number of firearms being 12 discharged? 13 A: No. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: All right. And you indicated that 18 you lost sight of the bus; you didn't continue to follow 19 it at that point? 20 A: I did not. 21 Q: All right. So you didn't see whether 22 it returned to the Park? 23 A: I didn't see that occur. 24 Q: Did you see any car driving in the 25 sandy parking lot over this event?
2921 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: All right. And what was your 3 estimate of the duration of this incident, the entire 4 incident? 5 A: From the time the bus came out? 6 Q: From -- from the time -- yes, from 7 the time the bus came out? 8 A: To the time I -- 9 Q: The -- 10 A: -- lost sight of it? 11 Q: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Fifteen (15) to thirty (30) seconds 16 maybe. 17 Q: All right. And the man who had been 18 apprehended did you come to know the identity of that 19 man? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And who was it? 22 A: Cecil Bernard George. 23 Q: All right. Now, just going back to 24 your statement Exhibit P-1415 at Tab 25. 25
2931 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And at page 2 you indicate partway 5 down: 6 "As we approached the intersection I 7 observed a number of people run from 8 the intersection back into the Park. 9 It was after dark and I was at least 10 fifty (50) metres from the 11 intersection." 12 And is that -- is this when the -- when 13 you first approached the sandy parking lot? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. You indicate that there 16 was a bus on the Park side with its headlights on as 17 well, is that your recollection? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: "The whole formation of Crowd control 20 and arrest teams stopped. None of our 21 people advanced to the Park fence. A 22 short time later I noted several male 23 Native Canadians come out of the Park 24 between the Crowd Control Unit and the 25 arrest team I was with."
2941 And you indicated that that was an error, 2 they were in -- in fact in front of the Crowd Control 3 Team? 4 A: That's what my memory serves me, yes. 5 Q: And just for clarification the Crowd 6 Control are the front elements of the CMU? 7 A: No, the Crowd Control is the whole 8 CMU but there I'm referring to the -- yes, the front part 9 of the CMU. 10 Q: Okay. And do you recall if there 11 were any incidents which precipitated or preceded the 12 First Nations persons coming out of the Park the first 13 time? 14 A: The first time? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: When we approached the intersection 17 they were there. 18 Q: I'm sorry, at the time that I'm 19 referring right here though. 20 A: When they came back? 21 Q: When they come back into the sandy 22 parking lot? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You didn't hear any -- any dog 25 yelping or anything like that?
2951 A: I did not. 2 Q: All right. You then indicate: 3 "I recall one (1) Native Canadian male 4 on the intersection side of the fence 5 with a large stick in his hand." 6 Do you recall anything about that? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You don't? 9 A: I don't. 10 Q: Today? Okay. You say: 11 "There was a large group of Natives on 12 the Park side of the fence. I noted 13 rocks thrown at my arrest team. One 14 (1) of the Crowd Control elements 15 advanced forward to arrest people 16 outside of the fence and the Natives 17 retreated to the Park property." 18 Is this what you were referring to as the 19 first punchout? 20 A: That is correct. 21 Q: You then say: 22 "The element that had punched out 23 returned to the rest of the unit and 24 the entire Crowd Control Unit began to 25 retire to the rear. While retiring as
2961 a unit Natives continued to rain down 2 projectiles on the unit. Any 3 projectiles I saw were stocked -- were 4 rocks. The unit stopped then and began 5 to move forward again to arrest rock 6 throwers that were outside the Park." 7 Now, is this the -- a second punch out? 8 A: Yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: You indicate: 13 " The lead element apprehended one (1) 14 male Native that had been throwing 15 rocks." 16 And who were you referring to there? 17 A: That was the person that was on the 18 ground. 19 Q: So Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 20 A: That's correct, yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And a little later on in this 25 description, you say that you -- you:
2971 "I observed that the subject was a male 2 Native Canadian who was heavy set, 3 wearing camouflage jacket and work 4 boots. He was the only person my 5 arrest team handled." 6 Does that refresh your memory at all with 7 respect to the description of him? 8 A: It does. 9 Q: And is that accurate? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you say: 12 "I know that his lips were cut and he 13 was bleeding in the mouth area. I'm 14 not aware of how he received those 15 injuries. Projectiles were still being 16 hurled at our unit." 17 Did you happen to notice whether or not 18 Mr. George had any blood from the back of his skull? 19 A: I did not make note of that, no. 20 Q: Did you look to see? 21 A: I did a cursory, quick cursory check. 22 I do not recall specifically checking the back area of 23 his head. 24 Q: All right. Did you attempt to 25 determine whether he had any tender spots on his body?
2981 A: No. 2 Q: All right. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Okay, all right. And I wonder next 7 if you would please -- I want to refer you to the 8 transcript of the TAC channel, and you indicated that you 9 were privy to the communications from your radio 10 communications. 11 Its P-438 and you should have that as a 12 separate document. It's entitled, Chatham Logger Tape 13 0146, and it's for September 6th, 1995, 10:27 p.m. to 14 11:10 p.m. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Perhaps we could just hand a copy of 19 it, do you have it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay, good, thank you. And this is a 22 transcript of the radio communications from the TAC 23 channel from approximately 10:27 p.m. to approximately 24 11:10 p.m. 25 And have you had a chance to review this
2991 document in advance of today's evidence? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I don't believe so. 6 Q: No? All right. All right, in any 7 event, this commences when the CMU is deployed and is -- 8 and they're walking down -- proceeding down East Parkway 9 Drive and Lacroix says: 10 "CMU advance slow pace. Should be 11 tenth of a K. TOC to CMU, we're 12 advancing to within three hundred 13 (300)." 14 Do you recall that -- that transmission? 15 A: Not specifically. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Was that the approximate pace of the 21 march? 22 A: Slow. 23 Q: Yes. Should be -- 24 A: It -- 25 Q: -- a tenth of a K?
3001 A: It was slow. 2 Q: Okay. And then on page 2 there's a 3 notation by Skinner attributed to -- to Sergeant Skinner: 4 "CMU TAC 1 be advised you've been 5 spotted by their forward observers and 6 their forward observers are 7 retreating." 8 And Lacroix responds: 9 "Everybody alert, stay spread out." 10 Do you recall that -- that transmission? 11 A: Not specifically, but... 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I would have -- I would have heard 14 those transmissions. 15 Q: All right. And page 3, there's a 16 reference from Inspector Skinner at the bottom: 17 "CMU to TAC 1, advising Sierra 1 and 18 Sierra 2 are not, repeat, not in 19 position." 20 And there was some transmissions with 21 respect to -- between Lacroix and Skinner as to whether 22 the Sierra teams were in position, do you recall anything 23 about that? 24 A: Not specifically, no. 25
3011 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Okay. Sorry. And -- and then on 4 page 4 there is advice: 5 "CMU be advised party on the road may 6 have a weapon in -- that -- his hand. 7 You did..." 8 I'm sorry. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry, Mr. 10 Commissioner. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: And Lacroix says: 16 "Okay everybody move, split right, 17 split left, right left split, right 18 left split." 19 And what was that manoeuver? 20 A: That's just when teams split in half 21 basically to get either side of the road and took a knee. 22 Q: All right. And if you go over to 23 page 6 please and it says current time 10:48 p.m, 24 Hebblethwaite says: 25 "Copy that. Copy that we're engaging.
3021 LACROIX: Keep your distance spread 2 out. SKINNER: CMU if you read, 3 Sierra 1 is on your left flank. 4 HEBBLETHWAITE: CMU copy. 5 HEBBLETHWAITE: Contact squad, back 6 up, contact squad back up. 7 LACROIX: Right cover, back up a bit. 8 HEBBLETHWAITE: Right cover, back up. 9 Right cover now." 10 These directions -- were -- were these 11 directions also directed to you as the arrest team? 12 A: Those directions would be coming 13 across the radio for everybody to hear. 14 Q: And is that -- is that the 15 description or what -- what's going on here? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: It's just the element leaders up 20 front talking and repositioning themselves. 21 Q: All right. This -- this isn't the 22 punchout? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3031 Q: And if you -- if you don't' -- if you 2 can't assist us -- 3 A: That is -- I -- I'm not sure. 4 Q: All right. Okay. I wonder then, 5 perhaps we could just move to Tab 34 of your brief. This 6 is Inquiry Document Number 1005909. And it appears to be 7 a diagram that was prepared I'm advised by -- by the SIU, 8 and reports to show the approximate areas to where Cecil 9 Bernard George is apprehended, and the general format of 10 the CMU at the time that the altercation and arrest was 11 occurring. 12 Do you see that? 13 A: I do. 14 Q: Have you ever seen this document 15 before? 16 A: I guess. 17 Q: And are you able to advise as to 18 whether or not this is accurate? 19 A: That would be the general layout of 20 the -- of the team in the cordon but as far as which 21 officers were where, I know that's inaccurate. 22 Q: All right. And -- and in what way is 23 it inaccurate? 24 A: I can't comment on the people in 25 front of me because I have no idea where they were. But
3041 I'm just looking at the -- our group with the rest at the 2 back. 3 And I don't recall the order we were in 4 but I -- I -- you have me on the left rear side. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And I know I was towards the middle. 7 Q: All right. So there about, right now 8 your name is -- yeah, perhaps you can help me out there. 9 It's on the left, Jacklin. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And the arrow's pointing at the -- 14 the far left of the arrest team and you're indicating 15 that you were in the middle of -- of that arrest team? 16 A: My recollection is that I was -- was 17 in the middle. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: That's my recollection. 20 Q: Okay. And what formation is this? 21 Can you recognize it? 22 A: I've been out of ERT for a long time 23 but I think it's what they refer to as cordon. 24 Q: And so the front -- at the front, at 25 the top of the page is the -- the contact unit?
3051 A: Yes, you -- yes. 2 Q: And then behind that you've got the 3 left and right flanks? 4 A: I think they were called left and 5 right contact but I might be wrong. 6 Q: Okay. And then Hebblethwaite and 7 Lacroix more or less in the centre? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And they were the -- the -- if you 10 will the commanders there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And behind them who are - 13 - who are -- do you know who the -- the five (5) 14 individuals are behind them, Thorne and Weverink and 15 Cloes, Rusk, and Smith? 16 A: I don't know what their -- their 17 roles were. 18 Q: All right. And then the arrest team 19 is behind, directly behind Close, Rusk, and Smith? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you have all eight (8) members 22 there and behind them are Marissen and Leblanc. You said 23 those were the prisoner van drivers? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And behind them Melnick and Wood;
3061 those are the K-9 handlers? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you can't comment on the Sierra 4 teams because you didn't know that they were there? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. Can we make 7 this the next exhibit please? 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1416, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1416: Document Number 1005909. 11 CMU, Position Chart created 12 by the SIU. (undated) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, to the best of your recollection 16 was the unit as displayed in Exhibit P-1416, were they 17 actually al in the sandy parking lot at the time of -- of 18 Cecil Bernard George's initial apprehension? 19 A: Everybody in the CMU? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I'm not sure. 22 Q: Okay, thank you. All right. Then 23 after -- in any event after the -- all was silent as you 24 described it and the officers were scattered and you 25 couldn't see any further First Nations persons what did
3071 you do? 2 What was the next event? 3 A: We -- we started withdrawing to the 4 TOC. 5 Q: And it was a -- on a direction? 6 A: Yes, we would have received 7 direction. 8 Q: And was there any headcount 9 undertaken prior to retreating? 10 A: I believe so. I -- I know I did -- 11 Q: And what -- 12 A: -- within my own element. 13 Q: What was the result of your -- your 14 headcount? 15 A: Everybody was accounted for. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: There wasn't any report of any 18 injury. 19 Q: All right. And where -- did you have 20 any safety related concerns as you returned to the TOC? 21 A: Yes, my -- you know we -- there had 22 just been a serious clash and as we returned there was 23 always a possibility of retribution for that. 24 Q: All right. And what was your state 25 of emotions as you returned to the TOC?
3081 A: I was I think a little bit physically 2 drained. 3 Q: Once you received or returned to the 4 TOC was there any briefing? 5 A: I -- I believe there was a quick 6 debriefing. 7 Q: All right. And -- and what was said? 8 A: I -- I don't recall what all was 9 said. 10 Q: And what was the purpose of this 11 briefing? 12 A: To see if everybody was accounted for 13 and then there were still a lot of things to do and -- 14 and you know we still had to do all those other things. 15 Q: All right. And did you receive any - 16 - any specific instructions? 17 A: I remained at the TOC. I don't 18 recall receiving specific directions on that. 19 Q: All right. Now, did you -- did you 20 have any conversations with either Sergeant Lacroix or 21 Constable Hebblethwaite? 22 A: There -- there was I recall a -- a 23 conversation, short conversation while we returned back 24 towards the TOC. 25 Q: Was that it though?
3091 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. And were you addressed at 3 all by the Incident Commander? 4 A: I believe Inspector Carson spoke to 5 us. 6 Q: And what did he tell you? 7 A: Remain professional and, you know, we 8 still -- we still have continue doing our job. 9 Q: All right. Did you happen to speak 10 with any of the TRU team members at the TOC? 11 A: I don't believe so. 12 Q: All right. Were you advised of 13 anything further with respect to the circumstances of the 14 firearms having been discharged? 15 A: No, I wasn't. 16 Q: All right. And did you learn, while 17 at the TOC, that one (1) or more aboriginal persons had 18 been believed to have been hit by gunfire? 19 A: I do recall hearing something. 20 Q: Can you tell me what? 21 A: And I don't -- I don't even know if 22 it was when we returned to the TOC. 23 Q: Okay. Were you assigned any further 24 duties at the TOC? 25 A: Yes.
3101 Q: And what were those duties? 2 A: I remained at the TOC with a number 3 of other officers from 1 District ERT and we were to 4 maintain security on that site. 5 Q: All right. And how long did that -- 6 that task take? 7 A: I believe -- 8 Q: How long did you -- were you assigned 9 that task? 10 A: I believe to about four o'clock in 11 the morning. 12 Q: All right. And did you receive any 13 further assignment at about 4:00 in the morning? 14 A: That's -- yes, I did. 15 Q: What was that? 16 A: I was directed to double up or 17 accompany Officer Myers and we were to evacuate homes on 18 -- on East Parkway Drive on the south side of the road. 19 Q: And were you told the basis of the 20 decision to evacuate certain of the homes? 21 A: It was a public safety issue. 22 Q: All right. And did you proceed to do 23 so? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And if you would go to Tab 24. This
3111 is a communication at 4:04 a.m., September the 7th, 1995. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And did you have an opportunity to 6 listen to the audio associated with this tape recording? 7 A: I believe so. 8 Q: And are you correctly identified in 9 that as Wayde -- where comments are attributed to you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you recall who the -- who was 12 speaking from Lima 1, or Lima 1, excuse me. 13 A: I believe it was Sergeant Korosec, I 14 believe so. 15 Q: All right. And what was the -- the 16 purpose of this conversation? 17 A: It was -- we were getting some 18 direction to start evacuating homes. 19 Q: All right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 24 next exhibit, please. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1417, Your Honour.
3121 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1417: Transcript of Region 07, 2 Wayde Jacklin - Lima 1, 3 September 07, 1995, 04:04 4 hrs, Chatham Communications 5 Centre, Logger tape number 6 147, Track 12, disc 12 of 20. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: And there's an indication here at the 10 bottom of page 1: 11 "LIMA 2: It's been suggested because 12 of the flames that we evacuate people 13 from the side of the road. This side 14 of Army Camp Road, what are your 15 thoughts? We can see flames. I don't 16 know how, it's difficult to tell 17 exactly where they are, but they're 18 really shooting up. 19 LIMA 1: Yeah, 10-4. That's going to 20 be looked after by another unit. We 21 have somebody eyeballing that. 22 If it gets -- if it gets too close, 23 then we'll do it right away. But other 24 than that, that's being looked at." 25 Now, were you apprised of -- do you know
3131 what they're talking about here? 2 A: Yes, I do. 3 Q: What -- what were they talking about? 4 A: It was the -- it was the store inside 5 the Provincial Park had been torched. 6 Q: All right. And if you next look at a 7 further communication at 4:42 a.m. This was a separate 8 hand out, not part... 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: All right. And again, you were able 13 to listen to the audio to this prior to testifying? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And are you appropriately identified 16 with the comments attributed to you? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And do you know who Lima 1 was here? 19 A: I believe it was Sergeant Korosec. 20 Q: Okay. And this indicates you're 21 getting further instructions with respect to the 22 evacuation? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And Lima 1 refers to Echo 1 and Echo 25 2. Can you just tell me what Echo 1 and Echo 2
3141 reference? 2 A: Yeah. Echo 1 is just now a new call 3 sign. 4 Q: Sorry? 5 A: 'E' Echo 1. We'd just been 6 reassigned a new call sign, identification call sign. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: Echo would be standing for 9 evacuation. So often the letter refers to your task. 10 Q: And your code name then was Echo 2? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. I'd like to make this the 13 next exhibit please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1418, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1418: Transcript of Region 08, 17 Wayde Jacklin - Lima 1, 18 September 07, 1995, 04:42 19 hrs, Chatham Communications 20 Centre, Logger tape number 21 147, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Now did you have any further 25 responsibilities that night?
3151 A: Yes. 2 Q: What? 3 A: After this evacuation plan was 4 implemented, I was assigned to the intersection of East 5 Parkway Road and Ipperwash Road. 6 Q: And what was the purpose of that 7 assignment? 8 A: It was to set up a checkpoint to stop 9 traffic travelling down East Parkway Road. 10 Q: All right. And how long did you stay 11 at that location? 12 A: Until relieved by GTR ERT. 13 Q: By who? 14 A: The Greater Toronto Region ERT team. 15 Q: Okay. And then did you go off duty 16 at that time? 17 A: Eventually, yes, went -- we -- we 18 checked into a -- the Acorn Lodge which is little cabins, 19 motels, cabins. 20 Q: And when did you first learn that 21 there had been a fatality? 22 A: I -- I don't recall. 23 Q: All right. Do you recall what your 24 reaction was on learning that there had been a fatality? 25 A: I was -- I was deeply moved by it.
3161 It was tragic. 2 Q: And how long did you remain assigned 3 to Ipperwash related duties after the 7th? 4 A: I was -- I believe I was relieved on 5 the -- after that particular incident I believe I was 6 relieved on the 6th -- 7th. But I -- I did return to 7 that area at different intervals after that. 8 Q: All right. And when was your last 9 assignment in relation to Ipperwash? If you wish to 10 refer to your notes, Tab 6. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I believe it was the 10th of October. 15 16 Q: 1995? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. And what was the nature 19 of your duties when you were assigned from time to time 20 to Ipperwash between September -- it looks like September 21 the 8th and October the 10th? 22 A: I had a lot of different duties 23 during that period of time. Do you want me to go through 24 each one (1) of them? 25 Q: No. Just give the general sense of
3171 what your -- your role was. 2 A: Generally it was area security, scene 3 security around the Forest Detachment in most cases. 4 Q: And do your notes accurately set out 5 what your duties -- or at least what the -- the duties 6 were during that time period? 7 A: I believe so. 8 Q: All right. Now were you stationed at 9 the Pinery Park after September the 7th at all? 10 A: I believe so, yes. 11 Q: All right. And while you were there 12 did you happen to see any mugs and/or t-shirts that were 13 made reflecting -- or after the event of Ipperwash? 14 A: I saw t-shirts. 15 Q: And did -- did you buy one? 16 A: Regrettably yes. 17 Q: And when you say regrettably, why do 18 you say regrettably? 19 A: When I purchased the t-shirt I didn't 20 put any malice meaning on it. I -- but when I -- the -- 21 the response to that t-shirt wasn't what I expected or 22 the weight that was put on it wasn't what I anticipated. 23 Q: Can you be more explicit? 24 A: It was a -- I don't want to simplify 25 it but I've bought -- I'd bought t-shirts before when I
3181 was with the UN in Cyprus. There was t-shirts, you know, 2 and there wasn't any evil attached to it and this t- 3 shirt, there all of a sudden there became some sort of 4 sinister, evil glorification of something gone wrong. 5 And that was absolutely in my mind was 6 not the intention of it at all and when I found that out 7 I parted with the t-shirt. 8 Q: All right. And do you recall ever 9 seeing at the Pinery an object which was a beer can with 10 a feather sticking in it and a hole in the side of the 11 can and a police tape, something to that effect? 12 A: I don't recall that. 13 Q: Do you ever recall seeing a cruiser 14 with a bull's eye and arrow attached to the side of the - 15 - the cruiser door? 16 A: I did not. 17 Q: Did you see any cartoons posted in 18 the Pinery depicting First Nation images or anything like 19 that? 20 A: I do not recall that. 21 Q: Were you a part of any discipline 22 process relating to your tour of duty at Ipperwash? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you receive any debriefing in the 25 form of psychological counselling relative to Ipperwash
3191 on the 7th of September? 2 A: It was on the 8th but maybe. 3 Q: On the 8th? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Yes, on Friday the 8th of September? 9 Q: All right. Yes, at your seven 10 o'clock notation or...? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And was that -- was that made 13 generally available to members of your team? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: And is that a -- a normal facility or 16 service provided? 17 A: A debriefing or talking to the 18 psychologist? 19 Q: The -- the psychologist? 20 A: Under those sort of incidents, yes, 21 it could very well be. 22 Q: All right. And were you a part of 23 any formal debriefing surrounding the events of 24 Ipperwash? 25 A: There were -- there were some
3201 debriefings but not complete ones I don't believe. 2 Q: All right. Were you involved in any 3 process which engaged in a critical review of the -- the 4 incident? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And is it usual practice to be 7 involved in such a review? 8 A: I can't comment on that. 9 Q: Okay. I understand that you gave 10 evidence at the trial of R. versus Cecil Bernard George? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And if you go to Tab 27 it's Inquiry 13 Document Number 1004978 and we've produced here pages 295 14 to 307. And it reflects the examination-in-chief and 15 cross-examination of you. 16 Have you had an opportunity to review this 17 transcript? 18 A: Yes, I have. 19 Q: And did you answer truthfully and 20 accurately to the best of your recollection as at July 21 17, 1996, the date of this evidence? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: And do you adopt those answers as 24 being accurate today? 25 A: At that time, yes.
3211 Q: But today? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you. I'd like to make this the 4 next exhibit please? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1419, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1419: Document Number 1004978. 8 Examination-in-chief and 9 cross -examination of Wayde 10 Jacklin, R. v. Cecil Bernard 11 George, July 17, 1996. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: I also understand you gave evidence 15 at the trial of Her Majesty the Queen against Warren 16 Anthony George? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And if you look at Tab 28 please, 19 we've produced pages 61 through 80. Again it's the 20 examination- in-chief and your cross-examination. 21 And have you had an opportunity to review 22 this transcript? 23 A: Yes, I have. 24 Q: And were the answers given true and 25 accurate on that day?
3221 A: Yes, they were. 2 Q: And do you adopt them as accurate 3 today? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I'd like to make this the next 6 exhibit please? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1420, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1420: Document number 1004976. 10 Examination-in-chief and 11 cross- examination of Wayde 12 Jacklin, R. v. Warren Anthony 13 George, October 03, 1997. 14 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That concludes my 16 examination-in-chief, Commissioner, and at this time 17 perhaps we would canvass the parties with respect to any 18 cross-examination please? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Any cross- 20 examination of this Witness? 21 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No more than 23 five (5) minutes. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Five (5) minutes for 25 the Ontario Provincial Police.
3231 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What to see 5 if there's anybody else. 6 Mr. Alexander...? 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) to 8 thirty (30) minutes. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Fifteen (15) to thirty 10 (30) minutes for Mr. Alexander. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Rosenthal...? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me. Yes, 14 sir. I should like to reserve two (2) hours. And to 15 make -- to save time, can I request that this officer's 16 notes for July and August of 1998 as they pertain to 17 Ipperwash at all, be appropriately produced in light of 18 the fact that at Tab 31 there is an Affidavit that's been 19 introduced as P-1400 and it was sworn on the 4th of 20 August, 1998, and so I should like to have his notes that 21 reflect the circumstances surrounding that Affidavit. 22 I would imagine they'd be in July and 23 August of 1998. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, first of all, we 25 don't know if those notes exist or if this is something
3241 that would be reflected in those notes. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, well, 3 obviously. But -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Officers do keep 6 notes of what they do and I should like his notebook. 7 I'm happy to examine it myself, if you wish, or have 8 somebody examine it overnight to save time tomorrow, to 9 see if there are any references whatsoever to anything to 10 do with Ipperwash, including the preparation of that 11 Affidavit in his notes. 12 If there's nothing, then we'll be so 13 informed, presumably. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 Ms. Jones...? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, any 17 time that we've canvassed with the Commission what notes 18 and the range of notes, we've been given, for example, 19 the end of September of 1995 as a cut off date. 20 So in terms of what notes this officer 21 has, I can tell you that I don't know and they haven't 22 been reviewed. If we get directed to, we can -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 24 review them overnight? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: -- review that --
3251 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 2 review those? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: -- review the period 4 requested by Mr. Rosenthal and see if there's anything 5 there. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you do 7 that? That's fine. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honour -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry, actually if I 13 can qualify that, I don't even know if this officer has 14 any notes with him for that period of time. Obviously 15 he's brought his notes relating to the period that -- to 16 the extent we've -- for the period that we've been told 17 is relevant. 18 I can ask -- make inquiries about them. I 19 can also say that this officer is not from near or around 20 this area at all. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not from 22 anywhere around this -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: No, and if he doesn't 24 have his notebooks with him, there is no way -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well,
3261 you'll -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that there can be 3 any -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- make 5 inquiries and -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: I'll make -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- report to 8 back tomorrow. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- inquiries and we'll 10 see what happens. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 That's all you can -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Why don't we get that 14 from him now. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Pardon me? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Why don't we get that 17 from him now? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We could just ask if 19 the officer has his 1998 notes. 20 THE WITNESS: I have no recollection of 21 what I wrote down in my notes in 1998. They are locked 22 up in an office in Gravenhurst. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I would 24 respectfully request in this modern era we can surely get 25 copies of his notes sent from Gravenhurst to here by
3271 tomorrow morning by fax or whatever appropriate means are 2 required. 3 THE WITNESS: I have the only key for -- 4 they're locked up. If they want to enter that, it's my 5 secure storage. They may, but I would request not. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 7 don't want anybody to go into your secure storage. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, Gravenhurst 9 then he should -- would have to go to Gravenhurst then, 10 Mr. Commissioner. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: This is -- 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think the fact -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- not -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just relax. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: This is not making 17 it difficult -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just relax. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- easy for us. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes...? 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It doesn't seem that 22 this -- it's feasible that we can have these notes here 23 for tomorrow. So I think that the best that we can do is 24 ask the Officer to look at his notes as soon as possible 25 and to advise if there's any references.
3281 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And to have 2 Ms. Jones examine them and let us know and if there's 3 something relevant and important, we'll bring him back if 4 we have to. 5 Yes, next cross-examiner? 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, 7 Commissioner -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- to avoid such a 10 problem, we're going to have a lot of other officers 11 testifying. May I make a general request that if there 12 are any documents relating to Ipperwash that are 13 attributed to an officer in any time period that we have 14 his notes examined surrounding that time period in order 15 to see if it can shed any light on the preparation of 16 that document. 17 That's a very reasonable general request, 18 in my submission, and I should like to make that request 19 now so that I'm not standing up every time and being told 20 the notes are somewhere else. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 23 any observation to make, Ms. Vella? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean we
3291 can't -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's got 4 to be some -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We asked for notes for 6 the relevant period. The relevant period was -- we asked 7 for notes to the end of September and we didn't ask for 8 notes and -- and I don't appreciate Mr. Rosenthal getting 9 all upset about this. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We -- we're trying our 12 best. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we are. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we will get the 15 notes as -- as we have indicated we will. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If they're 17 relevant we'll produce them. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- and we'll 19 produce them. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 Now, just relax. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, Mr. 23 Commissioner, I -- I was not in any way intending to 24 criticize the Commission. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but it
3301 certainly sounds that way. I know you're not intending-- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh. Oh, sorry, I - 3 - I didn't mean it that way. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was -- I was 6 frankly upset about the notion they're in Gravenhurst and 7 that we can't get them from Gravenhurst overnight somehow 8 in this modern era. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Maybe if we had to 11 walk there -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- or go by 14 horseback it would be a problem. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But it -- but I was 18 upset about that but not -- not in any way criticising 19 Commission Counsel at all. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Rosenthal. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And please, Mr. 23 Millar, don't take it that way. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I would make
3311 the general request now in future in order to make it 2 easier I'd make it of the OPP Counsel, I would suggest 3 that -- I'm not suggesting anybody did anything wrong to 4 this date but this is an issue. 5 If there are -- if there are documents 6 that have sworn testimony by somebody, a police officer, 7 police officers normally make notes of things, we should 8 have those notes available in general in future; that's 9 my request. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 11 Mr. Rosenthal. Who's the next person on my list? I 12 believe that it is Mr. Scullion. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's the Residents of 14 Aazhoodena. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm up next and I'm 16 going to reserve forty-five (45) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Scullion. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Forty-five (45) minutes 20 for the residents of Aazhoodena. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Johnson? 22 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Forty-five (45) 23 minutes to an hour. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Forty-five (45) minutes 25 to an hour for the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point
3321 First Nation. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 Mr. Falconer? 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: One and a half (1 5 1/2) hours. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: One and a half (1 1/2) 7 hours for Aboriginal Legal Services. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And Ms. Jones will 10 reserve I presume. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We could do 12 Ms. Tuck-Jackson right now but I'm not anxious to do it 13 right now. 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's actually 15 not why Ms. Tuck-Jackson was rising to -- to approach the 16 mic for the record. 17 My Friend Mr. Rosenthal just indicated 18 that the request has been made of Counsel for the OPP for 19 the notes. I wasn't sure whether that was a slip of the 20 tongue? It was? You intended Counsel for the OPPA? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I would make the 22 request of any Counsel that can accommodate the request 23 but it was a slip of the tongue -- 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Perhaps what -- 25 what best then can be done is that Counsel for the OPPA,
3331 myself, and Commission Counsel can speak afterwards and 2 we'll deal with this appropriately, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. It's been a long day. It's 5 been a difficult day and we're going to adjourn until 6 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 7 8 (WITNESS RETIRES) 9 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 13 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, April 26th at 9:00 14 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 4:50 p.m. 17 18 Certified Correct, 19 20 21 22 _________________ 23 Carol Geehan, Ms. 24 25