11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 24th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco )
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 Opening Comments 10 5 6 RICHARD ANTHONY ZUPANCIC, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 11 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 142 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 150 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 157 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Neil Cameron 238 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Falconer 259 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 316 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 334 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1365 Transcript of Region 05, Kent 4 Skinner/Transport and Supply?M. 5 Wright/J.Edwards/J. Carson/A. 6 Dagastino, September 06, 1995, 7 07:42 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, 8 Logger tape number 2, Track 2, 9 Disc 1 of 3. (Previously 10 reserved) 11 P-1375 Rob Graham audio. 10 12 P-1376 Document Number 2005562. Resume of Sgt. 13 Richard Anthony Zupancic. 12 14 P-1377 Document Number 9000566. School picture 15 of Rick Zupancic which includes Tony 16 George, 1974. 22 17 P-1378 Document Number 2005573. Handwritten 18 notebook entries of Rick Zupancic, 19 August 23-34, 1993. 30 20 P-1379 Handwritten notebook entries of Rick 21 Zupancic for October 18-19, 1993, 22 February 26, 1995 and August 31, 1995; 23 October 18, 1993 -August 31, 1995. 32 24 25
91 List of Exhibit (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1380 Document Number 2005448. Handwritten 4 notebook entries of Rick Zupancic, 5 September 5,6 and 26, 1995. 60 6 P-1381: Document Number 1005299. R. v. Ken 7 Deane: Examination-in-chief and Cross- 8 examination of Constable Richard 9 Zupancic, April 16, 1997. 122 10 P-1382 Richard Zupancic's handwritten notebook 11 entries, April 09-10, 1997 236 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
101 --- Upon commencing at 10:07 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, everybody. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin, 13 there's a couple of housekeeping matters. One I -- we 14 should mark -- I didn't mark the Rob Graham audio CD from 15 last week. We only played part of it, but we'll mark all 16 -- if we could mark it the next exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1375, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1375: Rob Graham audio. 20 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So that would be 1375. 22 And I wanted to just alert everyone to a change in the 23 witness order this week because of an illness for 24 Sergeant Hebblethwaite. 25 We're going to do Constable Zupancic,
111 followed by Constable Jacklin, followed by Huntley -- Rob 2 Huntley and then Sergeant Hebblethwaite at the end of the 3 week. Hopefully he'll be okay for that. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Mr. Worme is going 6 to -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Worme is 8 going to do the next witness. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, we would 14 call next Richard Zupancic as the next witness in this 15 Inquiry. 16 17 RICHARD ANTHONY ZUPANCIC, Sworn 18 19 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: Good morning, Officer Zupancic. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: I understand that you are presently a 23 Member of the OPP and you hold the rank of Sergeant? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: If I could take -- take you please to
121 the book of documents in front of you at Tab Number 1, 2 you'll find a document that bears your name at the top; 3 that is, in fact, your curriculum vitae? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: It's Inquiry Document 2005562, 6 Commissioner. I'd ask that that be marked as the first 7 exhibit this morning if I may please. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1376, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1376: Document Number 2005562. 11 Resume of Sgt. Richard 12 Anthony Zupancic. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: What I'm going to do, Officer, is if 16 I can just take you through your curriculum vitae 17 briefly. It would indicate that you are posted to the 18 Strathroy Detachment of the Middlesex Ontario Provincial 19 Police. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: You serve there as the Support 22 Manager? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And have held that position since 25 October of 2002.
131 A: Yes. 2 Q: Perhaps I can just take you back. 3 Your initial posting was at the Exeter Detachment; that's 4 correct is it? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And your duties at that point in time 7 were? 8 A: General law enforcement. I was a 9 Constable. 10 Q: You subsequently applied for I take 11 it, to become a member of the Tactical Rescue Unit. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And -- and might you just tell us a 14 bit about that if you would please? 15 A: Yes. In March of 1988 I -- I entered 16 the selection process for the Tactical Rescue Unit. I 17 successfully completed that and trained for the TRU team 18 through the year of 1988. 19 Q: Just in terms of that training I 20 wonder if you might tell us a bit about that. I know 21 that we've already heard from a previous witness that has 22 provided us with some of that information but I would ask 23 you if you might just tell us about your training insofar 24 as the Tactical Rescue Unit. 25 A: The training consists of clearing
141 training and containment training. There's a five (5) 2 week containment session, that's the first session, and 3 then after that there -- there was a break for the summer 4 and then in the fall we went back for a second session 5 which was a clearing session of training. 6 Q: A clearing session? 7 A: Clearing, yes. 8 Q: All right. As I understand it there 9 are also medical and psychological testing aspects or 10 elements to the training. 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And what can you tell us about that 13 briefly, sir? 14 A: There was -- there was testing that 15 we had to go through, different testing, medical 16 examinations that we had to go through. 17 Q: As I understand it the TRU team is 18 set up with twelve (12) members; that's correct is it? 19 A: The TRU team is -- the team is 20 consisted of thirty-six (36) members and they're deployed 21 three (3) different teams of twelve (12). 22 Q: I see. 23 A: And I was on the London team. So 24 there would be twelve (12) stationed at London. 25 Q: And the others would be stationed
151 where, the other two (2) teams? 2 A: At that time it was twelve (12) at 3 Barrie and then at Belleville. 4 Q: All right. I understand that there's 5 a Staff Sergeant as the team leader or a -- a second in 6 command? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And the remaining -- the remaining 9 officers within that TRU would be then split into four 10 (4) different elements as I understand. 11 A: Two (2) elements. 12 Q: Two (2) elements? 13 A: Two, sir. 14 Q: Could you tell us about that? 15 A: There would be a containment element 16 which would consist of sniper and sniper observer units, 17 two (2) of each, and then there would be a clearing 18 element or an arrest element, that would be another five 19 (5) members on that element. 20 Q: And each of those elements would have 21 a leader? 22 A: An element leader, yes. 23 Q: And you became element leader at some 24 point in time? 25 A: Yes, I did.
161 Q: And when was that? 2 A: That was some time prior to the 3 spring of '95 I believe. 4 Q: The element that you would have been 5 leader of then was? 6 A: The clearing element. IAP arrest; I 7 have heard it described as that, the arrest element. 8 Q: IAP. Now that stands for Immediate 9 Action Plan? 10 A: Immediate Action Plan. Immediate 11 Action Plan. 12 Q: Thank you. Now is it also the case, 13 sir, that each of these elements would be cross trained 14 so that you would be able to perform the function of any 15 element within the -- 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: -- overall team? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And in September of 1995 your 20 position with the TRU was as you've just indicated with 21 the clearing element; is that fair? 22 A: That's correct, as an element leader. 23 Q: As the element leader. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the element leader would have
171 certain responsibilities, perhaps you could tell us about 2 that? 3 A: They're responsible for the -- the 4 readiness of the element; make sure the guys are -- are 5 trained up and their equipment is ready. 6 Q: And what would that consist of in 7 terms of when you say trained up and being ready? 8 A: It's -- to make that they've -- 9 they've -- they're conducting the training and -- and 10 that they're ready to do their function. 11 Q: Would there be a logistical aspect to 12 this? Would you have as element leader the -- the 13 function or the role of insuring that besides the 14 training each of them are properly equipped; each of 15 those in the element under your command? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And aside from your position as 18 element leader did you have general law enforcement 19 duties or in fact did any of the members in the TRU unit 20 have general law enforcement duties? 21 A: No, they did not. It was -- 22 Q: So that would be a dedicated unit? 23 A: A dedicated unit, full-time tactics 24 and rescue. 25 Q: You've already indicated, sir, that
181 in 1998 you were promoted to sergeant and transferred to 2 the London Detachment? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And as you've also indicated you're 5 currently posted at the Strathroy Detachment? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: If I can just turn you briefly to 8 your curriculum vitae that's been marked as Exhibit P- 9 1376. 10 And if I can ask you to turn to the second 11 page of that I see that prior to the Native awareness 12 training at CFB Borden dated 30th of April of 1996, did 13 you have any other specific training relative to First 14 Nation or Aboriginal issues? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: And I note again from your curriculum 17 vitae, sir, that on page 1 of that, that subsequent to 18 the events of 1995 of which we shall turn to that you 19 were -- were then involved in police and Aboriginal 20 communities training in December, it looks like 2004? 21 Do you see that, it's the third -- pardon 22 me the second entry under "Training" at the bottom of the 23 page? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: As well as in -- it looks like
191 September of '04 as well, Traditional Council Info 2 Session at -- I take it that that's at Oneida? 3 A: Yes, it is. 4 Q: And aside from what you've listed 5 there, sir, did you have any other subsequent training in 6 relation to First Nation or Aboriginal related matters or 7 issues? 8 A: April of '96 was mentioned at CFB 9 Borden? 10 Q: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Yes. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: No, that's it. 14 Q: But aside from these issues I 15 understand that you had some connection not only to the 16 Ipperwash area but indeed to some of the people that were 17 involved on the -- on the occupation of -- subsequently 18 of Ipperwash Provincial Park but initially of the 19 Ipperwash Army Base? 20 A: Yes, that's correct. I -- 21 Q: And did you grow up in the area, 22 Officer Zupancic? 23 A: Yes, I grew up in Forest. 24 Q: And what can you tell us about that 25 if you would please?
201 A: I grew up in the town of Forest. I 2 was familiar with Kettle Point and the Army Base as it 3 was back then. Ipperwash -- Ipperwash Provincial Park, I 4 was familiar with the Park. 5 Q: Had you occasion to attend at the 6 Army Base during the time that you were growing up? 7 A: Yeah. Yes, I did. In high school we 8 played soccer on the Army Base; that -- that was where we 9 would play soccer. I had worked on the Base as -- as a 10 high school student in -- in the kitchens there and -- 11 and then after that through the OPP there was some 12 training on the Army Base. 13 Q: And that training on the Army Base 14 with the OPP, that included training at the firing range? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Was it primarily weapons-type 17 training? 18 A: Primarily. Sometimes we'd go there 19 for land navigation map and compass-type training -- 20 Q: As -- 21 A: -- in the woods. 22 Q: I'm sorry? 23 A: In the wooded area. 24 Q: Thank you. As a member of TRU, did 25 you have any occasion to train at the Army Base?
211 A: Yes. Yes, I did. 2 Q: And do you know when that is offhand, 3 without reference to your notes? 4 A: I -- I'd have to check notebooks to 5 find you the dates, but. 6 Q: Would this be the navigation-type 7 training that you've just referred to, as a member of 8 TRU? 9 A: And the firearms. And fire -- and 10 the use of the firearms range. 11 Q: All right, thank you. I understand 12 that you were familiar with the individual described as 13 Dudley George? 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: Did you know him by that name? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I want to ask you to turn to Tab 20 number 2, if you would, please, in that book of documents 21 in front of you. It's Inquiry Document 9000566. 22 And perhaps you can just describe for us 23 what that page is. 24 A: That's a copy of a yearbook photo. 25 It depicts the boys and girls gymnastics team. There's
221 an arrow there indicating myself in the picture and then 2 there's an arrow indicating Dudley or Tony George. 3 Q: And I understand -- the picture's 4 also marked at the bottom of the page, "Dudley 1974". 5 You'll agree that that's the year that that was taken? 6 A: Yeah, I wouldn't disagree. I don't - 7 - yeah, that makes sense to me, 1974. 8 Q: All right. Perhaps we can have that 9 marked as the next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1377, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1377: Document Number 9000566. 13 School picture of Rick 14 Zupancic which includes Tony 15 George, 1974. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: Just one second, please. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Just before we move off of that 23 exhibit, Officer Zupancic, you'll see in the picture 24 right above the one that you've just described, the 25 females gymnastic team, there's an arrow pointing to an
231 individual, it says, "Mouse sister". 2 What can you tell us about that? 3 A: I knew Dudley had sisters and I -- it 4 indicates Pam George. I -- I just don't -- I just don't 5 remember Pam. 6 Q: All right. These aren't your 7 markings in any -- 8 A: No, this is -- this is the second 9 time I've seen this document. 10 Q: All right, thank you. 11 A: Yes, not mine. 12 Q: Aside from your attendance at the 13 gymnastics class with Dudley George, do you have any 14 independent recollection of -- of him? 15 A: Yes. I would have -- if I would have 16 seen Dudley on the street in the town of Forest, I would 17 have known who -- who he was. I didn't chum with Dudley. 18 I knew his brother, Ricky; we played hockey together when 19 we were younger. 20 But I would -- I knew who he was and I was 21 aware of -- of him. 22 Q: All right. Do you know anything 23 about his reputation, first of all from High School? Do 24 you have any recollection of that? 25 A: What I recall, he didn't spend that
241 much time in High School. I don't have a conscious 2 memory of -- of him being there at High School; our 3 classes didn't line up or whatever. It was my 4 understanding that he didn't go all the way through High 5 School. I don't know what time he stopped. 6 Q: Sir, I want to ask you nextly about 7 your involvement as a member of -- of TRU in incidents 8 involving any First Nations people or any attendances at 9 First Nations territories, if I may. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And this is prior to 1995. I 12 understand that you were involved in a containment at 13 Kettle Point in February of 1995 -- 14 A: That's -- 15 Q: -- and we'll come to that -- 16 A: -- that's correct. 17 Q: -- in a moment. You also had 18 occasion to attend at Grassy Narrows First Nation in 19 Northern Ontario? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And attended at the Akwesasne Mohawk 22 territory as well? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Is there anything that you can tell 25 us about those particular incidents, starting firstly
251 with Grassy Narrows and Akwesasne? 2 A: Yes. Grassy Narrows was a call where 3 an OPP officer was shot and killed, another OPP officer 4 was wounded. There was a suspect, individual, that had a 5 substance abuse problem. 6 He had run off into the woods; TRU team 7 was activated and flew up and -- and flew up and 8 attempting to locate this individual. There was several 9 dog tracks. 10 In an attempt to find we -- we'd cleared 11 numerous buildings where he might have been hiding. Then 12 there was a siting of him a few days later and a lengthy 13 dog track occurred and it went on for some seven (7) 14 kilometres or something like that. 15 And eventually the -- the individual was 16 caught in the woods, in a swampy area -- 17 Q: It was resolved -- 18 A: -- and arrested. 19 Q: In fact -- I'm sorry. 20 A: And arrested. And arrested. 21 Q: And the matter was resolved without 22 further violence. 23 A: That's correct. The individual had a 24 -- had a weapon with him at the time of his arrest. 25 Q: And one of the other members of the -
261 - of the TRU that you were involved with was Kenneth 2 Deane. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And I understand that your unit would 5 have received commendations as a result of that 6 particular incident and your involvement in that. 7 A: They -- they may have. I -- I don't 8 recall that. 9 Q: Do you -- 10 A: What -- what I -- it's my 11 recollection that Ken Deane was on that dog track. I -- 12 I wasn't, I was at a different location. 13 Q: I see. The incident you've described 14 with respect to Akwesasne, can you tell us about that? 15 A: Akwesasne occurred at approximately 16 the same time of that the OKA standoff was going on. My 17 recollection of that was that there was some in-fighting 18 going on at -- at Akwesasne and to the extent where they 19 -- they were shooting across the river. 20 We were called -- our first -- our first 21 detail there, first job was to man a -- a far east 22 checkpoint where basically we took one of our TRU team 23 vehicles and -- and put it at the east end of the island. 24 And we manned that checkpoint for -- for 25 several weeks if not -- not months.
271 Q: Do you know what -- and how that 2 incident was resolved? 3 A: It -- it lasted through the summer 4 and -- and eventually we were just pulled back. 5 Q: All right. Sir, in August of 1993 6 you were called in for standby at the Pinery Provincial 7 Park. 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And do you have an independent 10 recollection of that event firstly, sir? 11 A: Yes I do. 12 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 13 A: We were -- we were activated on a 14 standby basis to go to the Pinery in -- in case there was 15 a need for TRU. There was a report of a helicopter being 16 shot at or being hit by a bullet. 17 And just with that investigation going on, 18 not knowing where it would lead, they -- someone I guess 19 believed that a TRU team should be close by. We went to 20 the Pinery, we stood by and that was the extent of our -- 21 our duty there. We were never activated. 22 Q: And when you say you went to the 23 Pinery to standby, is there a particular location? 24 A: There's a place at the Pinery that 25 has a bunkhouse that -- where we can park the trucks and
281 -- and wait. 2 Q: Perhaps I can ask you to turn to Tab 3 Number 3 of the book of documents in front of you. That 4 iss Inquiry Document 2005573. 5 A: May I -- may I also refer to my notes 6 which coincide with this? 7 Q: Would you please do so and confirm 8 for us that they do coincide with the photocopies that 9 I've just referred you to? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: It's just take me a second to find 14 the right one. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And for the record, you're referring 19 to your police notebook. I take it that that is the 20 date Monday, the 23rd of August 1993, your page 57; is 21 that correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And perhaps you can just refer then 24 to the entry beginning at 01:00 hours and tell us what 25 that says?
291 A: "Advised TRU required at Forest re. 2 helicopter shot at over Ipperwash Base 3 this evening." 4 And then the next line at 2:20 hours: 5 "10-7 Forest Detachment. Standby." 6 And then at four o'clock in the morning: 7 "10-80 to the Pinery for 8 accommodations." 9 And then at five o'clock: 10 "off-duty." 11 Continue? 12 Q: Please. 13 A: And then now it's the -- the next 14 date or later on that -- that morning; it's Tuesday the 15 24th of August, 1993, nine o'clock: 16 "Report for duty Pinery Bunkhouse, re. 17 Ipperwash Army Base. Standby." 18 And then it's a note: 19 "Standby all day at the Pinery OPP, 20 detachment re. Camp Ipperwash 21 occupation." 22 There's a lunch break in there at 12:00. 23 At one o'clock in the afternoon it's: 24 "Continue to standby." 25 And then at 21:30, which would be 9:30 at
301 night: 2 "No longer required. Return to London. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And then -- 5 Q: May I ask that that be marked as the 6 next exhibit please , Commissioner? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1378, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1378: Document Number 2005573. 10 Handwritten notebook entries 11 of Rick Zupancic, August 23- 12 34, 1993. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: If I can just take you back to that 16 notation briefly, Officer Zupancic, I just want to go 17 through your -- very briefly some of the entries and if 18 you could describe that for the record, at 02:20 hour: 19 "10-7 Forest Detachment." 20 10-7 is -- is shorthand for...? 21 A: I'm sorry? 22 Q: "10-7 Forest Detachment." 23 What does 10-7 refer to? 24 A: Arrive at -- at Forest Detachment. 25 Q: And at 04:00 hours, "10-8"?
311 A: That's -- 10-8 is that you're going 2 to. So we're going to the Pinery at that point. 3 Q: And so you're off duty from 05:00 4 hours to 09:00 hours. You're basically four (4) hours 5 off. I take it that's to get some sleep or whatever? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And would that be something that's 8 usual, that you would have just a very limited time to -- 9 to rest yourselves before getting back into duty? 10 A: That's correct. When we're called 11 into something such as this that wouldn't be unusual. 12 Q: And that would be something that you 13 would have trained for? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Sir, on October the 19th you were 19 again called as a member of TRU to attend to the 20 Ipperwash area? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And would you tell about that? 23 A: I'll -- I'll refer to my notes also? 24 Is -- is that on a certain tab? 25 Q: If I can ask you then to refer to Tab
321 Number 3 -- pardon me, Tab Number 4. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And you'll see in the middle of the 6 page of the Tab there's an entry that's dated Monday, 18 7 October, 1993. It seemed to bear your page 75 at the 8 bottom of that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I note for the record that you're 11 also looking at your notebook; your police notebook of 12 that same date is it? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And can you confirm for us that the 15 notebook you're reviewing corresponds to the document 16 that commences at Tab Number 5 -- Tab 4, pardon me? 17 A: Yes, this is a direct photocopy. 18 Q: Perhaps before I take the Witness 19 through this I'll ask that that be made the next exhibit, 20 Commissioner? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1379, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT No. P-1379: Handwritten notebook entries 24 of Rick Zupancic for October 25 18-19, 1993, February 26,
331 1995 and August 31, 1995; 2 October 18, 1993 -August 31, 3 1995. 4 5 MR. DONALD WORME: And I should simply 6 note, Commissioner, that -- that this tab will contain a 7 number of entries and I'm going to ask that this entire 8 tab document be marked simply as that Exhibit, 1379. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: Go ahead, sir. If you can describe 12 for us then on the 19th of October your callout as a 13 member of TRU? 14 A: We were requested to -- I just want 15 to make sure this is the right one -- to assist with some 16 radio testing up around the Ipperwash Army Base and the - 17 - the notes capture myself going up and -- and doing some 18 radio testing different distances away from the Base to 19 make sure there was still comms, communications. 20 Q: And the purpose for this radio 21 testing? 22 A: At -- at this time it's my 23 recollection that the Army Base had been occupied by 24 First Nations people. They entered the Base and as a -- 25 just for planning purposes they wanted to make sure -- we
341 wanted to make sure that our communication around the 2 Base worked in different areas. 3 Q: Did you have in addition to that 4 recognisance (sic) duties; that is to -- to examine the 5 location? 6 A: I have a recollection in my mind that 7 there was some thought that maybe if a command post was 8 needed that the drive sheds at the Pinery Provincial Park 9 might be used. 10 We -- there was some -- we looked at those 11 to see if they could serve that purpose. 12 Q: Right. And you don't have any entry 13 in your -- in your notes with respect to what you've just 14 testified to? I take it that's an -- 15 A: No, I -- 16 Q: -- independent -- 17 A: That's coming from my mind. 18 Q: All right. Perhaps I can ask you to 19 refer to the entry on -- at 10:00 hours. Do you see 20 that? 21 A: Yes, yes. 22 Q: And could you just read that for us, 23 please? 24 A: "Met Sergeant Wayne Sharpe and Kevin 25 Robson, number 1 District radio techs,
351 to Ipperwash re. comms check from 2 Ipperwash Provincial Park re. Camp 3 Ipperwash occupation by Natives. 4 First observation was that this 5 position is undefendable if situation 6 becomes volatile. No dead zone. Only 7 one (1) road in. Unable to defend this 8 position due to closeness of bush line 9 on Military Base. Derus and myself 10 stay back in 42-308 [that's one of our 11 vehicles]. 12 Robson drives. Nine (9) predetermined 13 positions around Camp for comms test on 14 channel TAC 3." 15 And then it -- it lists what -- what the 16 comm test was. So Number 1 was the main gate. 17 "Mobile 10-2. Portable 10-2." 18 Q: Okay, and it simply -- you simply go 19 on to note the different locations that you've referred 20 to and whether -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just one 22 minute. 23 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm sorry. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 25 an observation, Mr...
361 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: For the record, the 2 Witness had read "volatile" into the record -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And it's 4 "violent". 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I noticed 7 that. I was going to point it out. Thank you. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: And I meant to come 9 back to that, and I would have, in a moment, but I thank 10 My Friend for pointing that out. 11 THE WITNESS: What -- what -- 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 14 Q: Perhaps I can just take you back to 15 that now, if I may, Officer. If you can go back to the 16 entry at the top -- pardon me, at the middle of page 78 17 and you'll see: 18 "re. Camp Ipperwash occupation..." 19 You've read: 20 "...by Natives. First observation is 21 that this position is undefendable if 22 situation [I think you've indicated] 23 becomes volatile."? 24 A: "Violent" It says "violent". 25 Q: Thank you. And then it reads:
371 "No dead zone." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what does that refer to? 4 A: That -- there's no area where you 5 have clear observation. It's wooded -- a wooded area 6 right up to the roadway and -- and when -- if firearms 7 are involved then somebody could hide behind the woods 8 and -- and shoot at you and you wouldn't be able to see 9 that they're there. 10 So there's no open space to observe -- 11 Q: All right. At this point -- 12 A: -- any threats. 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: No open space to observe if there 15 were any threats. 16 Q: And at this point in time, sir, was 17 there any information that you can recall today that 18 there were potential threats of the nature that you've 19 described? 20 A: I don't recall specific information 21 but there was -- from my memory there were threats that 22 there may be weapons involved at the Base. 23 Q: All right. And just lastly with 24 respect to the entry at the bottom of the page, when you 25 talk about nine (9) predetermined positions around the
381 camp: 2 "Comms test for channel TAC 3." 3 Can you just tell us what TAC 3 refers to? 4 A: Where -- where's the line that 5 says... 6 Q: I'm sorry, I'm at the bottom of your 7 page 78, just before you get into describing the nine (9) 8 predetermined zones. You're running comms test on 9 Channel TAC 3. 10 I take it that's Tower Assisted 11 Communication? 12 A: I believe it is, that's correct. 13 Q: And "3" would simply be one of the 14 channels that you would be testing? 15 A: That's my recollection. 16 Q: Thank you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Sir, in February of 1995 you were 21 called out as a member of TRU in relation to a 22 containment incident at the Kettle and Stony Point First 23 Nation. 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And can you describe for us, sir, the
391 role that you would have played, what you recall about 2 that incident? 3 A: What I recall is that we were called 4 in -- requested by the Kettle Point Police Service, First 5 Nations Police Service. There an arrest warrant for an 6 individual. He was in a house, believed to be in a house 7 and he had made some threats, made some threats with 8 firearms. 9 We contained the house, attempted to 10 negotiate the individual out. Negotiations stalled or -- 11 or he -- he didn't come out when he agreed to come out. 12 At this call I was asked to deploy a 13 distraction device; a large bang and a big flash of 14 light. When I deployed that distraction device at that 15 point, then other people started breaching our perimeter. 16 There were numerous individuals that 17 walked through the perimeter; that would cause us concern 18 because we -- we're trying to contain a person in the 19 house was a gun who's threatened to hurt people and now 20 there's people walking through and standing in front of 21 the house. 22 Q: When you say people or -- or others 23 that were breaching the perimeter, I take it you're 24 referring to civilians. 25 A: Civil -- that's correct, yes.
401 Q: Continue would you please? 2 A: There -- there was an individual at 3 one point came up on a snowmobile, parked right out in 4 front of the house. These individuals, these civilians 5 weren't happy that we were there. 6 Eventually, the Kettle Point officers 7 drove up to the front of the house and -- and called the 8 individual out and -- and he was arrested at that time. 9 Q: In your testimony just now with 10 respect to this incident, you didn't refer to your notes 11 at all? 12 A: That -- that's from my memory. 13 Q: All right. Just with respect to your 14 testimony then, you indicated that there was an attempt 15 to negotiate. 16 A: That -- that's correct. 17 Q: Do you have a recollection as to who 18 was involved in that aspect, of the negotiations that is? 19 A: No, I don't. Not -- not with -- it 20 would not have been any of us on -- on the inner 21 perimeter. It would have been somebody through phone 22 lines. 23 Q: And your role was setting up and 24 maintaining the inner perimeter, was it? 25 A: That's correct. And to act as -- as
411 an arrest team. 2 Q: I understand that you also had some 3 involvement in evacuating nearby residences; I take it 4 this would be standard procedure as well? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Perhaps I can ask you again if you 7 could refer to your notes at what's been marked as 8 Exhibit P-1379; that's the notes at Tab 4, sir. You see 9 the -- those notes are separated by the first blue page. 10 And again, I note for the record that 11 you're referring to actual police notes -- 12 A: The actual -- actual notes. 13 Q: Okay. And taking a look at that, can 14 you confirm for us that those notes are copies of the 15 notes that appear at Tab 4, it's your page 75 under the 16 heading, Saturday 25th of February 1995' are one and the 17 same? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes, that's a direct photocopy of my 22 notes. 23 Q: All right. And you'll see at 00:50 24 the entry: 25 "10-7 Forest OPP."
421 And that essentially corresponds to what 2 you've just testified to? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Regarding a -- pardon me, an arrest 5 warrant for Daryl George. And we've heard something 6 about this in earlier testimony, Officer. 7 A: That -- that's correct. 8 Q: If I can just take you to the middle 9 -- of the bottom of that page, the arrest warrant was in 10 connection with an assault that this individual evidently 11 had been charged with? 12 A: Yes. I -- I don't recall the -- the 13 details of the assault, just the fact that there was an 14 arrest warrant for assault. 15 Q: All right. And the information at 16 the bottom of that -- the bottom of that page is that -- 17 and I'm quoting here: 18 "He wouldn't go in without a fight. 19 Indication of weapons [comma], handgun 20 [comma], AK-47?" 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: I take it that's the information that 23 would have been provided during the briefing section upon 24 your arrival at the Forest Detachment? 25 A: That's correct.
431 Q: And if you would just continue, if 2 you would please, and read for the record the -- the 3 entries up to the bottom of that page? 4 A: From what point? Where should I 5 start? 6 Q: Right after AK-47 where I let off, 7 sir. 8 A: It says: 9 "Beau, I, McCormack and Chief, Staff 10 Sergeant Mike (sic) Bressette, drove to 11 KP and did recci. Approach routes. CR 12 positions. Meet XXXX XXXX." 13 Q: Pardon me, that name has been 14 obliterated in the copy and I would ask that -- that the 15 record properly reflect that. I'm sorry, Officer. 16 A: Okay. 17 "View target." 18 Q: On the next page there is a -- a 19 diagram and I take it that is your diagram of the -- the 20 recci or the recognisance -- 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: -- reconnaissance that you would have 23 engaged in? And if I can just turn you to the next page 24 of that same entry, sir, that is at Page 77. 25 And perhaps before I do I'll ask that this
441 entire entry be made the next exhibit please? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 3 already have. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Okay. It has been? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1379. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Oh, pardon me, that's 7 correct. I'm sorry. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: If I can refer you then to page 77, 11 Officer, and if I can ask you just to continue reading 12 from the top of that page just to the middle if you would 13 please? 14 A: "Pick up key from school to be used 15 as Command Post. Return to Forest 16 Detachment. Briefed on operation to 17 deploy S1; Spud, Bill: S2; KO, Mike: 18 Alpha; Beau, PJ, Zup: TOC; Derus: CP; 19 Skinner. CP; to be school, 500 metres 20 west of scene. Houses to either side 21 of target. Alpha and S1 to deploy 22 from --" 23 Q: I'm going to suggest -- 24 A: "-- Indian -- Indian Road --" 25 Q: Right.
451 A: "-- east to target. S2 deploy Indian 2 Road west of scene. Once houses are 3 evacuated negotiations to contact -- 4 negotiators to contact Daryl George. 5 Negotiator rest. Then we're 10-8 --" 6 Q: All right. 7 A: "-- to Kettle Point. Deploy with 8 Sierra. Notify the Cloud resident -- 9 residence." 10 Q: Okay. Maybe I'll just stop you there 11 if I -- if I may, Officer, and I just want to take you 12 back. If you could explain for us some of the entries at 13 the top of that page if you would please? 14 So you arrive at the -- at the Kettle 15 Point School I take it and that was to be used as the 16 Command Post and we understand from other testimony that 17 that would be usual; a command post would be set up in 18 the vicinity? 19 A: Yes, it is, we -- our Command Post 20 should be fairly close for communications purposes. 21 Q: And at that Command Post you would 22 have been provided briefing as to what the situation was 23 on the ground? 24 A: At that Command Post? The -- my 25 understanding through here we were briefed at Forest
461 Detachment and then went to that and used that as a 2 command post. 3 Q: And the -- 4 A: You could be briefed at the Command 5 Post. 6 Q: All right. In any -- but in any 7 event your notation reads: 8 "Briefed on operation to deploy." 9 So I take it that would be a subsequent 10 briefing as to how the actual operation would take place? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And would you describe then what "S1" 13 and "Spud" and "Bill"; what does that refer to? 14 A: "S1" is Sierra 1; that would be our 15 observation team, our sniper observer team. "Spud" would 16 be -- is a nickname for Constable Irvine. And "Bill" 17 would refer to Constable Bill Klym. 18 Q: Right. S2? 19 A: That would be Sierra 2 team which 20 would be a sniper observer team. Kieran O'Halloran and 21 Mike McCormack. KO would be Kieran O'Halloran, Mike is 22 Mike McCormack, both constables. 23 Q: Alpha? 24 A: Alpha would be the arrest team. Beau 25 was Mark Beauchesne, PJ is Pat Morrisey, Zup is myself.
471 Q: Sorry? 2 A: Zup is myself. 3 Q: TOC? 4 A: It says Derus, that would be Rick 5 Derus. 6 Q: And TOC is in reference to the 7 tactical operations centre? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: That would be the school that you've 10 just told us about that -- 11 A: No. The school would be the CP, the 12 command post. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 A: The TOC is usually one of our 15 vehicles and it's the comm. link between the TRU team and 16 the rest of the OPP officers and the command post. 17 Q: I see. Just continue, if you would 18 then, please, with those entries. 19 A: CP, which would be command post, has 20 Skinner. That would be Sergeant Skinner. 21 CP to be a school, five hundred (500) 22 metres West of scene. Houses to either 23 side of target." 24 Q: All right. And that's the 25 distinction you've just explained to me in that between
481 the tactical operations centre and the command post? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And if I can ask you to turn to the 4 next page. 5 You have the previous entries to 06:54 6 simply, an entry that there was some negotiation; that 7 Mr. George was to come out of the residence and that 8 there was no indication of him coming out and at that 9 point in time you -- "TAC 2 request DD deployed". 10 That's the entry at 06:54? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And "DD" is what you've already 13 testified to being the distraction device? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you went ahead and did that? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And I note at the bottom of page 78, 21 Officer Zupancic, at 07:30 hours you've already described 22 that Mr. George was taken out of the residence; that he 23 was placed under arrest and taken away and at 07:30 24 hours, "the residence was cleared by Beau and I"? 25 A: That's correct.
491 Q: All right. And if you turn to the 2 top of the next page, sir. It says: 3 "Cleared residence". 4 Is that correct? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And is the next word "negative"? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And what is that in reference to? 9 A: Negative is indicating to me that 10 there's nothing in the house and it's clear for different 11 reasons. If there was any traps left by the suspect or 12 if there were two (2) suspects or if the suspect has hurt 13 somebody in the house; you -- we don't know if there was 14 a hostage or something like that. 15 And it's basically just a quick clear of 16 the house to make sure that there isn't anything like 17 that. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: So it's negative. There's nothing 20 out of the ordinary that we see, no dangers in the house. 21 Q: And what about weapons? The -- the 22 information that you had earlier is that there may well 23 be weapons present. 24 A: That would indicate that -- that we 25 didn't see -- we didn't see a weapon.
501 Q: And I note that you continue there 2 and returning to Forest Detachment. Does that say, 3 "store kit"? 4 A: Yes, stow -- stow kit. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Put away. 7 Q: And then you wait for the debrief. 8 Do you have an independent recollection, sir, about that 9 debriefing? And I take it you would have had a role in 10 that? 11 A: Yes. I don't have an independent 12 recollection of that debrief today. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 14 there was any concern expressed about the breach of the 15 perimeter, as you've described it, by -- 16 A: That's a concern that, from reading 17 my notes, I -- I would have. I have that today, that's - 18 - that's a concern. That's -- it's dangerous for the 19 people that are breaching the perimeter. 20 It's dangerous for the officers involved. 21 It's also dangerous for the suspect. 22 Q: Sir, in August of 1995, you were 23 again called as a member of TRU to report for duty in 24 relation to the Ipperwash matter. 25 A: That's correct.
511 Q: Can you tell us about that? 2 A: Is that the next notes in here? 3 Q: It is. And perhaps I can just ask 4 you to read for the record, if you don't have an 5 independent recall of that, sir, the entries commencing 6 at August 31st, 1995. 7 A: I'll refer to the actual notes 8 instead of the photocopies. I have an independent 9 recollection of that day. I can -- I can describe what 10 we did without looking at the notes on that day. 11 Q: Perhaps you can go ahead and do that 12 and then I'm going to ask you to read for the record your 13 note entries. 14 A: On -- on that date Constable 15 Beauchesne and myself drove up to the Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park area for -- to -- there was information 17 that the First Nations people were going to occupy the 18 Provincial Park. 19 And in the likelihood of that happening, 20 we decided to drive up there to check routes in and 21 routes out around the Park in case TRU was needed. 22 Q: You were familiar with that area in 23 any event? 24 A: I -- I knew the area and I was going 25 to show Constable Beauchesne the area.
521 Q: Was he familiar with the area at all 2 to your knowledge? 3 A: I don't believe so. 4 Q: Do you recall where the information 5 would have come from that there was a plan that the 6 Provincial Park might be occupied? 7 A: Not first hand without referring to 8 some notes -- who -- who told me that? I -- I don't have 9 a distinct recollection of -- of who said this was going 10 to happen. 11 Q: Well let me ask you if you could turn 12 then to those notes. It's the last page at Tab 4 which 13 has been marked as Exhibit 1379, the entry is Thursday, 14 31st of August 1994 commencing at 07:00 hours. 15 And I note there's just a few entries. If 16 you could go ahead and read that please. 17 A: "Thursday the 31st August '95, 07:00 18 hours, TRU hour." 19 That's training hour and then: 20 "08:00 hours report for duty. London 21 TRU." 22 Then there's some lines that I scratched 23 out. I had: 24 "Firearms fundamentals, Davis range -- 25 Davies range with Beau, site MP-5 with
531 -- with laser night vision." 2 Then I have those lines scratched out and 3 initialled. That isn't what we actually did at that 4 time. 5 At nine o'clock we went to Ipperwash with 6 Constable Beauchesne to familiarize routes around the 7 Park. At 13:00 break, our lunch hour. GB, indicating to 8 me Grand Bend. And then returned to London. 14:00 9 returned to London. 17:00 off duty. 10 Q: All right and just if I can ask you 11 to go back to the entry at 09:00 hours. It actually 12 reads: 13 "Recci re Ipperwash with Beau." 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And Recci is in reference to the -- 16 A: Recognisance of the area, 17 familiarization. 18 Q: When you say that that is not 19 actually what happened, you're referring to the notes 20 that are crossed out. You can still read them. They're 21 still legible and your initial is beside them. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Perhaps you might just tell us about 24 what your note taking practices were at that point in 25 time.
541 A: If -- if you make an error in your 2 notes and you would draw a line through it and initial 3 it. What -- what this shows to me is I -- I wrote these 4 notes some time after. 5 Whether I wrote them at the end of the 6 day, at the end of the day or the beginning of the next 7 day on reflection on what happened. It -- it appears to 8 me that I just fell into a routine and started writing 9 what my -- my day was -- the prior day and went, oh no, I 10 didn't do that. I had to draw a line through it and 11 actually write what I actually did on that day. 12 Q: All right. And when you say fell 13 into a routine, would it have been part of your routine, 14 sir, that you would have attended for firearms 15 fundamentals as is indicated there? 16 A: That -- that's a normal duty of -- of 17 any given day. It could be any day of the week that I -- 18 I would do that duty. 19 Q: And you would attend at a -- Davies 20 Range. I take it that is a firing range? 21 A: That's our firearm -- that was our 22 firearms range. 23 Q: And where was that located? 24 A: In Westminster Township, south end of 25 London, the City of London.
551 Q: It goes on to indicate site MP-5. I 2 take it that is the -- the weapon that you would have 3 used at that point? 4 A: It was one (1) of my -- it would have 5 been one (1) of the weapons I used. 6 Q: All right. And aside from the 7 recognisance that you would have done in the area, the 8 reconnaissance rather that you would have performed in 9 the area do you have any particular recollection as to 10 what if any -- any decision were made as a result of 11 that? 12 A: There was -- there was information, 13 there was -- there was talk about if -- if TRU was needed 14 where -- where would we stage. I recall there -- there 15 was some thought of using a parking lot that was on East 16 Parkway Road and one (1) of the concerns we had was the 17 distance from the parking lot to the Provincial Park and 18 we -- we measured that distance as one (1) of the -- one 19 (1) of the jobs we did that day. 20 Q: Okay. What about with respect to 21 establishing Comms, that is communications, over that 22 same area? 23 A: That's what we would have -- 24 determining the distance, if we're within a kilometre 25 that's -- that's a rule of thumb, our -- our Command Post
561 should be within a kilometre. And that distance from the 2 parking lot to the edge of Ipperwash Provincial Park was 3 approximately eight hundred (800) metres. 4 Q: These activities or these tasks that 5 you've just described for us, that's something that you 6 would have done on instruction by somebody? 7 A: That -- that's correct. The team 8 leader of the day would have gave us direction. 9 Q: And that person was? 10 A: I -- I believe now today that -- that 11 -- it may have been Ken Deane that was acting in Kent 12 Skinner's spot for that week. Initially I thought it 13 might have Kent that gave us that direction but I believe 14 today sitting here that it was Ken Deane. 15 Q: And when you say, "Kent" you're 16 referring to then Sergeant Skinner? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: All right. And I take it that these 19 tasks that you would have been assigned to or instructed 20 to engage in were part of a larger plan? 21 A: It's -- it's my understanding -- 22 today sitting here thinking back there -- there was a 23 plan called Project Maple that I was familiar with that I 24 believe was the plan if -- if the Park was taken over. 25 Q: And what can you --
571 A: -- or occupied. 2 Q: -- what can you tell us about that 3 plan, that is Project Maple as you've described it? 4 A: It was -- it was a plan in place if 5 occupiers took over the Provincial Park and part of that 6 plan would -- and if -- if violence was suspected or 7 weapons were involved there would be a contingency for 8 TRU to be a part of that plan. 9 Q: All right. And, sir, I understand 10 that on the 5th of September, 1995, you were not on duty 11 at that point in time were you? 12 A: That's correct, I was on vacation 13 starting on the 4th of September. 14 Q: All right. Do you have an 15 independent recall of being called out on the 5th of 16 September? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: And what can you tell us independent 19 of your notes which I shall bring you to in a moment? 20 A: Independent of that? I was at -- I 21 was at my residence. There was a pager activation. We'd 22 called in to find out what -- what was on the page and it 23 was that we were called in for Ipperwash occupation. 24 Q: Do you recall who would have called 25 you in?
581 A: No, it -- there -- there's a system 2 in place where if -- if the TRU team's activated they're 3 activated by pager and who specifically -- where that 4 order came from I -- I don't know. 5 Q: Upon receiving your page what did you 6 do? 7 A: We proceeded to our detachment where 8 -- where our equipment was and then headed up towards 9 Forest. 10 Q: And when you say, "we" I take it you 11 were with somebody? 12 A: The TRU team. I'd have to refer to 13 my notes to see if I can -- see who I specifically rode 14 with or -- or how I got there. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: But we -- we'd pick up our equipment 17 and then we'd go to wherever we were requested to and 18 it's my recollection at this time it was Forest 19 Detachment. 20 Q: And just continue, if you would, from 21 your recollection, sir. What happened following your 22 attendance at Forest Detachment? 23 A: That night there was some other 24 equipment that had to be picked up and I believe I went 25 back to London to pick up this equipment and bring it
591 back up to Forest Detachment. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So it was a bunch of driving. Drove 4 up to Forest, got to Forest. No, go back, get this. 5 Drove back to London, picked it up, go back to Forest 6 again. 7 Q: And is there anything that you can 8 recall, sir, that you were involved in on the 5th of 9 September, 1995, following your page call at home? 10 A: Unless you're referring to the use of 11 the equipment the -- no, it's -- then at that point then 12 we went to Ipperwash to stand by. 13 Q: And when you went to Ipperwash to 14 stand by, what do you recall about that? Where would you 15 have been located? 16 A: At the bunkhouse at Ipperwash -- 17 Ipperwash -- Pinery Provincial Park, that was a misspoke, 18 there. 19 Q: And it's the same bunkhouse that 20 you'd referred to earlier where you had been on standby 21 on an earlier occasion? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: If I can ask you to turn to the 24 documents at Tab 5 of the document binder in front of 25 you. It's Inquiry Document 2005448.
601 You see -- are you with me there? 2 A: The 5th, Tuesday the 5th? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Page 53. Yes. 5 Q: It starts at the top of the page, 6 "15:00", is that clean weapons? 7 A: I'll refer to my handwritten notes, 8 again if I -- 9 Q: Again, if you could confirm for us, 10 sir, that those actual notes are truly an accurately 11 photocopied on that page and the subsequent pages. 12 A: That's correct. It's a direct 13 photocopy of this page. 14 Q: Okay. If I can ask that that be made 15 the next exhibit, please. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1380, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1380: Document Number 2005448. 19 Handwritten notebook entries 20 of Rick Zupancic, September 21 5,6 and 26, 1995. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: If I can ask you then to refer to the 25 entry at Monday 04 September '95, that's a statutory
611 holiday. You would have still been on holidays, as 2 you've indicated? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Your next entry is Tuesday, 05 5 September '95. You're on vacation? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And just continue from there, if you 8 would, please. 9 A: "17:00, report for duty, London TRU. 10 Call in re. Ipperwash Park occupation. 11 Prepare kit. 17:30, 10-8 in 42-31..." 12 Q: And let me just stop you there. You 13 were going to go ahead and explain, perhaps I should 14 just... 15 A: I just missed a digit that -- that 16 there should be another digit on there, but that's a 17 vehicle. 18 Q: 42-31, you're referring to? 19 A: Yes. It should be, I'm going from 20 memory, 42-311, I believe was the... 21 Q: And "10-8" means you're travelling in 22 that vehicle? 23 A: Travelling in that vehicle, yes. 24 Q: Yes, continue then. 25 A: "18:30, 10-7 bunkhouse, Pinery."
621 And then I list: 2 "Beau, Klym, Strickler, Spud, Kamerman, 3 KO, Mick, to Forest with Tex and 4 Skinner." 5 Q: Now, the only name we haven't already 6 referred to or you haven't described for us is the name 7 Tex. 8 A: Constable Ken Deane. 9 Q: The other names you've already 10 described would be other members of -- of TRU. 11 A: That's correct. All members of the 12 London TRU team. 13 Q: And just continue from there if you 14 would, sir. There's an entry at 19:00 hours. What does 15 that read? 16 A: Eat. We had supper. Eat. 17 Q: And then there's an entry just 18 following that, 18:00 hours. 19 A: "Return to London to pick up video 20 printer." 21 That was the piece of equipment that was - 22 - they needed in Forest that I drove back to London to 23 get. 24 Q: And the purpose for this particular 25 piece of equipment?
631 A: This piece of equipment took a video 2 image from -- from a recording, a VHS tape and you could 3 freeze frame -- if you freeze frame the tape, you could 4 capture of picture of that and it would be similar to a 5 Polaroid picture. 6 So you get a photograph from the tape. 7 Q: And I just note from the entries 8 there, sir, you have at 19:00 hours, you would have ate 9 and then subsequently -- 10 A: I'm sorry. 11 Q: The -- at 19:00 hours, you've already 12 told us that your entry says "eat". 13 A: Eat. 14 Q: And then you have following that, an 15 entry at 18:00 hours. How do you explain that? 16 A: As I look at this today, 19:00 hours 17 would represent seven o'clock at night. And the 18:00 18 hours should have been 20:00 hours. And in my mind 19 instead of putting 20:00 down, it's eight o'clock at 20 night, I wrote 18:00. 21 That's what it looks like to me today. 22 Q: Carry on then at 23:00 hours. 23 A: "Forest Detachment, set up video 24 printer and VH -- VCR. Print tape of 25 flyover with Mark Dew. 00:30 returned
641 to Pinery. 2 01:00 off duty." 3 Q: You're off-duty at one o'clock the 4 morning of September the 6th of 1995? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And if you could just continue with 7 that -- that entry at the bottom of page 53, sir. 8 A: Continue reading? 9 Q: Yes, would you? 10 A: "Wednesday 06 September 1995, 07:00 11 report for duty London TRU Project 12 Maple, Ipperwash Provincial Park 13 occupation." 14 Q: Just let me stop you there if I may 15 where it says "Report for duty, London TRU". Does that 16 mean you would have attended back to London? 17 A: Negative. That would have meant that 18 that's the unit that I would have been working for at the 19 time. Is that clear? Like report for duty London TRU, I 20 -- I was on the London TRU team. Not it situated in -- 21 in the City of London. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: And as you read through that -- as 24 you read through that it continues through and it's -- 25 and it says that were at the bunkhouse -- at the
651 bunkhouse. 2 Q: All right. Just continue then if you 3 would read the entries on the following page 54. 4 A: "By Natives, TRU member standing by 5 at Pinery bunkhouse. ERT on 6 roadblocks. Clear, warm, 28 degrees C. 7 09:30: Slomer and I drive by 8 checkpoints in 47-885. Check with St. 9 John's Ambulance attendant. 10 To London." 11 Q: And let me stop you there, sir. 12 Slomer and I -- who is Slomer? 13 A: Ted Slomer is the medic on the London 14 TRU team. He's a civilian. In his professional practice 15 he's -- he's a registered nurse and -- and he fills the 16 role as our team medic. 17 Q: All right. The entry there 40 -- is 18 that 47-885. 19 A: 47-885. 20 Q: And that describes a vehicle? 21 A: That -- that I recognize as the 22 suburban or we call it -- that was a suburban. 23 Q: And the entry "Check with St. John's 24 Ambulance attendant." What -- what is that in reference 25 to?
661 A: That -- as I think back today I -- I 2 showed Ted Slomer the route around the Provincial Park 3 and we drove by the parking lot and I have a vague 4 recollection that there was a St. John's ambulance 5 attendant there doing some function. 6 And I -- I don't know whether he was 7 setting up the trailer or -- or -- or just there. And I 8 don't recall a conversation what it would have been. 9 It's just that we bumped into somebody somewhere. And I 10 think that's where it was. And introduced ourselves and 11 then went on, is what I recall. 12 Q: All right. Thank you. The entry at 13 11:45 hours, sir, what is that in relation to? 14 A: That's chiropractor re work related 15 injury 28th of August. My back, my lower back was 16 flaring up. It was causing me quite a bit of pain. 17 Q: And so you -- this is an entry 18 referring to your attendance -- 19 A: That's -- that's a personal entry 20 that I had a chiropractor's appointment at that time at 21 11:45. 22 Q: And do you recall attending at that 23 chiropractor appointment? 24 A: Yes. Yes, I do. 25 Q: All right. And just continue with
671 those entries please at 12:30 hours? 2 A: "12:30 purchased video printer pack 3 from Carman Cameras. 13:00 kit at 4 Slomer's." 5 That just indicates to me that we went 6 around to his residence to pick up something that he 7 might have needed. 8 "14:00 Forest Detachment deliver print 9 pack and major event forms. 10 15:00 back at Pinery. My back is 11 starting to flare up again. I will 12 perform TAC 2 duties in TOC, lighter 13 duties." 14 Q: All right. Let's just go back to 15 your entry at 14:00 hours at Forest Detachment. You've 16 already described what the pint -- print pack is rather, 17 what are major event forms? 18 A: They're -- they're a form that the 19 OPP has when -- to -- to capture information of a -- of a 20 major event; just what officers were there, how many 21 hours they worked, what vehicles that they used. 22 Q: It's administrative or logistical -- 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: -- type of information? 25 A: That's right.
681 Q: And the entry at 15:00 hours you've 2 described you're back at Pinery. You've already 3 indicated to us you had a chiropractic appointment 4 earlier on and I take it your back wasn't getting any 5 better? 6 A: No, it was -- it was actually getting 7 worse. 8 Q: And did you request the lighter 9 duties you've indicated there or were they simply 10 assigned to you? 11 A: It -- it would have been a request. 12 I -- I would have -- or I -- I went to -- had a 13 discussion with Constable Deane, described to him that my 14 back was getting worse and it was agreed upon that we 15 would change our -- our roles if -- if needed. 16 Q: Okay. So at that point in time it 17 was simply a discussion that if there were an actual 18 deployment -- 19 A: If -- if we were deployed my normal 20 role would have been on -- on the ground as an arrest 21 team or an IAP team, Immediate Action Team. With that 22 function you'd be fully kitted up, you'd be expected to 23 run and -- and jump, climb fences or whatever and -- and 24 hands on to -- to conduct an arrest or -- or cover 25 somebody, like many different things.
691 So because of my bad back and the amount 2 of pain I -- I couldn't perform that function. Ken 3 Deane's normal function would have been in the Tactical 4 Operations Centre or TOC which would be more of a 5 logistics role. 6 You're in one (1) spot, you're not moving 7 around. You don't have to rush and help somebody or -- 8 or whatever your task may be. 9 So we -- we basically switched spots 10 because of my bad back. 11 Q: And TAC 2 refers to...? 12 A: TAC 2 is the radio designation that 13 we give the TOC. TOC is our Tactical Operations Centre, 14 TAC 2 is the call sign we give to TOC. TAC 1 is the call 15 sign we give the team leader at the Command Post. 16 Q: And for the purposes of our record, 17 we'll come to this, who was the TAC 1, that is the team 18 leader at the Command Post? 19 A: Kent Skinner. 20 Q: All right. Perhaps you can just 21 continue with the entry then at 20:30 hours? It says 22 20:30 approximately is that -- is that correct, sir? 23 A: Yes, 20:30 approximate, or approx. 24 It means approximately. Continue reading? 25 Q: Please.
701 A: TRU is requested to attend Forest 2 Detachment re: situation heating up at 3 Ipperwash. While en route advised by 4 Skinner to return to Pinery, leave 42- 5 311, 42-309 there. Kit up for IAP and 6 cover teams and..." 7 And then I have "return" but it's 8 scratched out with my initials. 9 "Go to TOC location at Ipperwash. 10 Leave 42-311, 42-309 at Pinery and go 11 to TOC location. 12 21:14 while en route advised by Skinner 13 who was at CP intelligence reports 14 Natives have four (4) AK-47 copies, 15 mini-rugers, scoped rifles, Molotov 16 cocktails." 17 Q: All right. Let me just stop you 18 there if I may, sir. Your entry there is that you would 19 have received this information while en route by Officer 20 Skinner that you've just described to us, the entry is at 21 21:14 hours? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And if I can ask you to turn to Tab - 24 - the document at Tab Number 8 in front of you, it is a 25 logger tape, Command Centre. It's been marked as P-347.
711 And the entry that I have for you there, it's an excerpt 2 at 21:02 hours. 3 There is four (4) pages here in total. Do 4 you -- do you see that? 5 It's an excerpt from exhibit P-347. 6 A: That's counting the cover page? 7 Q: Yes. Including the cover page and 8 then there would appear to be three (3) pages of 9 transcript. 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Right, Commissioner, I know that this 12 -- and I've already indicated it has been marked as 13 Exhibit P-347. 14 However, for the purposes of-- of the 15 record, I should also note that it has been marked as 16 well as Exhibit P-1351, from the evidence of Officer 17 Skinner. 18 So if I can ask you then just to refer to 19 the first page of that, the entry at 21:02 hours and it 20 reads, "Trepanzic". I take it that's simply a typo? 21 A: It appears to be. 22 Q: All right. And you've had a chance 23 to review this? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: And that corresponds with what you've
721 just described for us, and that is to say that you had a 2 communication with Officer Skinner and he provided to you 3 certain information of the weapons that were in -- 4 perhaps I should just ask you if you could go ahead and - 5 - and read that and tell us what it says. 6 A: Read the transcript? It says: 7 "Hello. [Myself] 8 SKINNER: Hello. 9 [I say] Yes. 10 SKINNER: Where are you? 11 Now, we're at Northville right now." 12 Skinner asks: 13 "Are you going to the -- heading to the 14 TOC?" 15 My reply is: 16 "Yes. To meet, ah..." 17 And then Skinner says: 18 "Is Tex there?" 19 I reply: 20 "Tex at Ravenswood". 21 And if I could just mention that I was on 22 a cell phone at the time and it's very crackly and it was 23 difficult to read so that might explain the choppiness of 24 it. 25 But I --
731 Q: Thank you for that. 2 A: I have that recollection in my mind, 3 it was very difficult. 4 Q: Thank you for the clarification, 5 officer. Tex, again, that refers to Ken Deane? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Right, continue. 8 A: "SKINNER: Okay. I can't get a hold 9 of Tex, so I'll pass this on to you, 10 okay?" 11 My reply is, "Okay." 12 "SKINNER [goes] weapons?" 13 "Yes." [is my reply] 14 SKINNER: Apparent, ah, four (4) 15 imitation AK's." 16 I reply, "Yes". 17 "Ah, Ruger 14. 18 Okay. 19 Let me repeat. Four (4) imitation AK- 20 47s. 21 How many mini-Rugers? 22 SKINNER: Ruger 14s don't know. 23 MYSELF: Ah, mini-Ruger? 24 SKINNER: Scoped hunting rifles." 25 I repeat, scope hunting rifles.
741 SKINNER [says]: Molotov cocktails. 2 I repeat Molotov cocktails. 3 "SKINNER: Yeah, okay. 4 ZUPANCIC: Okay. 5 SKINNER: When you guys get there, 6 Tex'll fill you in on what we want to 7 do. 8 MYSELF: Okay. 9 SKINNER: Okay. 10 ZUPANCIC: Yeah. 11 SKINNER: So other than that, that's 12 what I got to pass on right now at the 13 moment. 14 ZUPANCIC: Okay. I've logged, um, our 15 vehicles on. 16 SKINNER: Yeah, yeah. I know. They 17 were telling me. 18 MYSELF: Okay. You're there now with 19 Cousineau or you've... [and then] 20 SKINNER: I'm in the CP, yep, 21 MYSELF: okay. 22 And Tex will be you there at the TOC." 23 To me that kind of indicates we'll meet 24 you there at the TOC. 25 "ZUPANCIC: Okay.
751 SKINNER: Okay. 2 ZUPANCIC: Yep. 3 SKINNER: Okay. 4 ZUPANCIC: Bye. 5 SKINNER: Bye." 6 Q: All right. And aside from the -- the 7 time entries that information would correspond to your 8 notes at 21:14 hours? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And just before we move away from 11 that particular document, Officer, if I can ask you what 12 if being referred to at the bottom of page 2 and when you 13 read: 14 "Okay I've logged, um, our three (3) 15 vehicles on." 16 Q: What is that referring to? 17 A: Logged them on with the Communication 18 Centre or -- or the Command Post. One -- one or the 19 other so that the Command Post knows that the vehicles 20 are -- are there. The radio comms are set up. 21 Q: Thank you. If I can ask you then to 22 turn back to your notes at Tab Number 5, 21:35 hours the 23 entry. 24 A: I -- I'm sorry, I didn't -- 25 Q: Perhaps maybe before we move onto
761 that, this might be an appropriate point, Commissioner, 2 to take a break. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure thing. 4 We'll take a morning break now. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 6 for fifteen (15) minutes. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 11:26 a.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 11:48 a.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you for that 14 break. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: Officer Zupancic, just before we took 18 the break, I had you looking at your notes on Tab -- the 19 notes at Tab 5 which we've marked as Exhibit P-1380 and 20 we were just at the entry at 21:35. 21 Just before we go there, I'm going to ask 22 you to turn back a page if you would please to the entry 23 at 20:30 hours. Do you see that at page 54? The bottom 24 of page 54. 25 A: Yes.
771 Q: And you've already confirmed for us 2 that that entry at 20:30 approximately that you were 3 requested to attend Forest Detachment re situation 4 heating up at Ipperwash. 5 A: That's correct, yes. 6 Q: And then the entry just beyond that, 7 would you just read that for me please? 8 A: "While en route advised by Skinner to 9 turn around.." 10 Let me start over. 11 "While en route advised by Skinner to 12 return to Pinery. Leave 42-311, 42-309 there. Kit up 13 for IAP and cover teams and go to TOC location at 14 Ipperwash. Leave 42-311, 42-309 at Pinery and go to TOC 15 location." 16 Q: And let me just ask you some 17 questions around that particular entry if I may. 18 You're on your way there, you get a -- you 19 get a telephone call I take it? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And 42-311, I understand that to be 22 the equipment van or the gun van for the Alpha team? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And 42-309 was the gun van for the 25 Sierra team?
781 A: That's correct. 2 Q: All right. Kit up for IAP, that 3 means kit up for the Immediate Action Plan? 4 A: That's -- that's correct. 5 Q: All right. If I can ask you to turn 6 to the document that you will find at Tab 11 of the brief 7 of documents in front of you... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I'm sorry, I meant to refer you to 12 the document at Tab 9. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I'm informed that this document has 17 been marked as Exhibit P-1356 and it is a conversation 18 recorded between yourself and Kent Skinner. As well 19 you'll note that the Command Post is also indicated on 20 that -- on that document, do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And I think I've just 23 referred you to the wrong document as well, Officer, and 24 I'm going to see if I can locate that just at this 25 moment.
791 If we go back to Tab 7 please and that's 2 Exhibit 1322. My apologies for that, Commissioner. It's 3 a conversation September the 6th at 20:29 hours. Do you 4 see that at the top of the page? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Between yourself and Bob Cousineau 7 and Stan Korosec? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. This is a telephone 10 conversation that you would have had with the Command 11 Post? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. And if I just refer you 14 to the bottom of that page, do you see the last entry 15 there, "SK"? I take it that's Stan Korosec? 16 "You're going to be told to turn 17 around. Stay kitted up at Pinery?" 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then if I can ask you to turn to 20 the next page, "RZ," that refers to yourself: 21 "Okay. We'll do that." 22 Do you see that? I'm looking at page 2 of 23 that same -- of that same Exhibit document? 24 A: Okay. I -- I had two (2) pages that 25 were the same.
801 Q: Oh, pardon me. 2 A: Yes, I see that. 3 Q: It goes on: 4 "SK: Okay. 5 RZ: Yeah. 6 SK: Okay. While I got you on the 7 phone here can you talk? Are you 8 driving?" 9 And yourself: 10 "Yeah, I'm driving. It's fine, we're 11 at Northville. We're going south on 79 12 right now. 13 SK: Okay. Well, turn around. You'll 14 be turning around and going back. 15 RZ: Yes, we will." 16 And just before I move off on that, 17 Officer, I wonder if you might tell us about the route 18 that you were taking from Pinery Park to Forest when you 19 received this phone call? 20 A: Yeah. Yes, we would have been taking 21 79 Highway and then we would have cut through a township 22 road which would have got us onto the Town Line to bring 23 us into Forest, a back direction, so we didn't drive past 24 the Ipperwash Army Base -- 25 Q: And the reason --
811 A: -- with our police vehicles, with our 2 police vehicles. 3 Q: And the reason for that was simply to 4 avoid detection? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And if you go down to the near -- to 7 the middle of that page approximately just after your 8 entry: 9 "Okay. What you have here is you have 10 all the men in my convoy. 11 SK: Okay. 12 RZ: Okay. And you have Skinner and 13 Tex that should be nearing Forest right 14 now in their car. 15 STAN KOROSEC: Okay. Can you guys get 16 yourselves logged on?" 17 And you say: 18 "Yes. 19 SK: We're trying to get a hold of 20 you." 21 And then you reply: 22 "Yeah, we can log on to a TAC." 23 And that's what you've described for us 24 earlier, Officer, about being logged on so that the 25 Command Post knows what vehicles are involved, what
821 officers are involved? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Again, I'm going to ask you just to 4 jump ahead to the very next page. And we're looking at 5 page 3 of 12. 6 And so at the top of the page it reads: 7 "Yeah. 8 SK: So you're turning back?" 9 And you reply: 10 "Yeah. 11 SK: Okay. What we got is, we got a 12 big gathering down at the end of Army 13 Camp Road and East Ipperwash. Baseball 14 bats. They trashed a private vehicle 15 that went by with bats. We got -- how 16 many we got down there? Natives. It's 17 changing all the time." 18 And then there appears to be some 19 background noise. Do you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you re -- do you have an 22 independent recall, officer, of receiving that 23 information? 24 A: My independent recall is -- is 25 receiving the information about turning around the
831 vehicles. I -- I don't have an independent recall of -- 2 of getting that information from Stan Korosec, but 3 reading this I don't -- I don't dispute that I did. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And just if we -- just to finish off 8 that particular entry. After you're turning back, you're 9 -- or somebody's telling you -- your guys -- do you see 10 the entry where it says: 11 "SK: Yeah, they're armed with 12 baseball bats and whatnot at this 13 intersection. We got people opposed to 14 them are coming down from Kettle 15 Point." 16 Your response, "Okay". 17 "SK: They are opposed to these guys 18 occupying the Provincial Park." 19 Your response, "Okay". 20 STAN KOROSEC: We got a turf battle. 21 Not a turf battle, but a..." 22 And your reply: 23 "Internal battle." 24 A: I -- yeah, I see it. 25 Q: And were you aware that there was
841 some type of internal battle or internal dispute? 2 A: Yes. I was aware that there was some 3 friction between Kettle Point and Stoney Point people. 4 Q: Okay. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I'm just going to take you to a 9 couple of other entries with respect to this particular 10 document. At the bottom of page 3 of 12, after this 11 discussion about the internal battle. 12 The entry: 13 "STAN KOROSEC: We got -- we got TRU or 14 the ERT teams that were the day shift 15 are kitting up in their crowd 16 management gear and Wade Lacroix is 17 coming up as well to handle them." 18 You reply, "Okay." 19 And at the top of page 4: 20 "STAN KOROSEC: We're making a plan." 21 You reply, "Okay." 22 What do you know about the plan that was 23 being made and who was involved in the making of such 24 plan? 25 A: Don't -- don't know.
851 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: If I turn you to -- your attention to 5 the top of page 5 of that same document. This is Bob 6 Cousineau, I take it, at the top of the page. He's 7 asking you: 8 "Do you have your vehicle information, 9 badge numbers and all that happy 10 stuff?" 11 That's the log on procedure, again -- 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: -- that you've already confirmed for 14 us. 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Okay. I'm not going to take you 17 through that, sir, but I am going to ask you to turn to 18 page 6, that is the following page. 19 You're going through this log on procedure 20 and if you go right down to the second last entry at the 21 bottom of the page, Bob Cousineau asks you: 22 "Pardon me?" 23 And you say: 24 "You don't have any of that written 25 down here?
861 BOB COUSINEAU: No, no." 2 And your reply: 3 "Shit. What an oversight." 4 And I take it that's in relation to -- 5 A: The logging on. The logging on of 6 the vehicles. As we go through this, I'm telling him 7 what vehicles, what people, what their badge numbers are 8 and I -- by reading that, I get the impression -- I would 9 have thought that that -- they should have had that 10 information there ready to go. 11 Q: And the balance of -- of the 12 conversation, up at least to the end of page 11 is that 13 logging on process -- 14 A: That's -- 15 Q: That's correct, is it? 16 A: That's correct. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Now, if I may take you back to your 21 notes, sir, for that same particular period. We are 22 looking at the notes and the documents at Tab 5 that's 23 been marked as Exhibit P-1380. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
871 Q: And you've confirmed for us that the 2 instructions to turn around which are noted at the bottom 3 of page 54, and that is contained in that conversation 4 we've just gone through? Yes? 5 A: Yes. That's correct. 6 Q: And on page -- on the next page, that 7 is your page 55, the entry at 21:14 we've gone through 8 that. That was what you've confirmed for us the 9 information that you received from Officer Skinner about 10 the possibility or the allegation that there were arms. 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. The entry then at 21:35 13 and I wonder if you just might take it from there, sir, 14 and tell us what it is about that -- that this tells you. 15 A: This is -- this is the time that we 16 arrived at the TOC location. We meet with Constable 17 Deane, Tex. Tex is at the TOC. Set up recorder. The 18 members kit up for assignments and responsibilities. 19 So everyone's busy, one's setting up the 20 TOC and getting their individual equipment ready for 21 whatever we may be asked to do. 22 Q: All right. You would have had pre- 23 determined roles as every member of the unit did? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And we note your -- your notes
881 indicate then S-1 being Irvine and Strickler. You've 2 described that earlier as being one of the sniper 3 observer teams. 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Sierra 1? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And the call number S-2, McCormack 8 and Kamerman? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: The IAP, that is you've already 11 described that for us as the Immediate Action Plan. 12 A: Is Deane, Beauchesne, O'Halloran and 13 Klym. And then it has Slomer is our medic and I'm in the 14 TOC. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And then also another assignment that 17 I have is to assist Slomer if re -- if required. If so - 18 - if the medic is need I'll be his cover man and we use 19 47-885 as the vehicle for that purpose. 20 Q: And you've described that earlier for 21 us as a suburban that you could recall. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Right. Carry on. 24 A: "Staff Sergeant Skinner is TAC 1. 25 Acting Superintendent Carson is the IC
891 Incident Commander. Both at TOC 2 locations." 3 Normally there would be a Command -- 4 they'd be at Command Posts but because of the distance 5 from the Command Post to -- to the scene, they were at 6 the TOC which they used as a forward Command Post. 7 And then: 8 "Briefed by Skinner. Earlier this date 9 Natives confronted a civilian vehicle. 10 Smashed his windows near the front gate 11 to the Park. Driver unharmed. Sierra 12 1 and Sierra 2 to move into position 13 near the gate and gain intelligence. 14 Sierra 1 and Sierra 2 deployed and 15 report back. It is difficult to move. 16 Natives are off the Park looking for 17 police along the cottages." 18 And then I have a little star and it says: 19 "Copy from radio log made by me." 20 Q: And what does that refer -- refer you 21 to, Officer? 22 A: When -- when I was in the TOC 23 listening to the calms of -- of the members being 24 deployed, I grabbed a piece of paper and -- and wrote 25 down times and -- and what was happening.
901 And I was going to use that in relation 2 with the logger recorder to go back to any point and time 3 of something that may have happened. 4 Q: Okay. Well then let me just take you 5 back -- I'm sorry. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: All right just before I take you to 10 the entry at the bottom of page -- of your page 55 where 11 you're briefed by Skinner, earlier this date. 12 I take it obviously that's -- that's an 13 entry you would have made following that particular 14 briefing. 15 A: I'm sorry, just repeat -- 16 Q: I'm looking at your page 55, Officer. 17 A: Yes. I'm there. 18 Q: At the bottom of the page, do you see 19 that, "Briefed by Skinner, earlier this date." 20 A: That's right, yeah. 21 Q: Do you know when earlier on the date 22 you would have received this briefing from Officer 23 Skinner? 24 A: No, no. What it means is we're being 25 briefed at this time by Skinner. And he said "Earlier
911 this date." 2 Q: I see. 3 A: And then it -- and then it goes on. 4 Q: Thank you. Just in relation to that 5 particular information, did you have any role in terms of 6 verifying any of that? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You would have acted on the 9 information as provided to you by Officer Skinner, who 10 was your superior? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And let me just refer you to the -- 13 to the earlier entries on that same page. Do you see 14 where you're -- you're indicated as "TOC", the Tactical 15 Operations Centre? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Now, did you have any 18 role in terms of setting that up? I wonder if you might 19 just describe how that is set up in terms of the logger 20 and such? 21 A: Yes. The TOC is -- is actually the 22 vehicle of 42-308, it's -- it's a cube van box maybe 23 about a three (3) ton truck that the back compartment has 24 white boards, has our TRU radios, has the OPP radio, has 25 a logger recorder and we use that as our Tactical
921 Operations Centre. It's our space that we occupy is six 2 (6) feet by seven (7) feet in -- in this truck. 3 Q: And it's a fairly confined quarters? 4 A: It's a confined space. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Yeah. And then out of that space 7 that I would occupy would be the driver's cab of -- of 8 the truck and the seat would be -- the driver's seat 9 would be here, the passenger seat would be there, there'd 10 be a bulkhead and then that would be the space that I 11 would be in and it would be open. 12 Q: And just for -- 13 A: You could move from front to back, 14 like you know, from the front to the back. 15 Q: Just for the purpose of the record, 16 sir, when you say, "the driver's seat would be here", you 17 indicated with your right hand the driver's seat -- 18 A: Yeah, with my left hand is if I'm in 19 the -- 20 Q: You're -- 21 A: -- in the box I'm looking forward so 22 the driver's seat would be on my left and the passenger 23 seat would be on my right. 24 Q: Aside from the bulkhead was there 25 anything separating the driver's compartment from the
931 area that you would have been located in? 2 A: No, no there wasn't. 3 Q: And who was seated in -- in the 4 driver and passenger seats if anyone? 5 A: During time, during that evening 6 Acting Staff Sergeant Skinner would have been in one (1) 7 seat, Superintendent or Acting Superintendent Carson 8 would be in -- in the other seat. 9 I can't recall who was in which seat. 10 There was times that they were standing by the doorway 11 which was to the passenger side of the box. The door 12 would have been open to the outside. Where anyone was at 13 any specific time I -- I don't recall but we were always 14 in close proximity to each other. 15 Q: And the reason that they were there 16 again was you -- you'd indicated there was some 17 difficulty with the communications from the Command Post 18 situated at the Forest Detachment? 19 A: The -- the distance would have been 20 too great to -- to control the scene from -- from Forest. 21 Q: And so they used the vehicle that 22 you've just described as their forward Command Post? 23 A: That -- 24 Q: Is that fair? 25 A: That's correct. And ideally, in
941 ideal situations you would have the Command Post one (1) 2 -- in one (1) structure or building or car or something. 3 You'd have our TOC separate from that. 4 Q: And why is that? 5 A: Because of the information coming 6 into the TOC, there can be a lot of information coming in 7 at a given time and it -- it may distract the Incident 8 Commander or that -- that should be separate. It's to be 9 a barrier between the two (2). 10 Q: Do you know whether or not what 11 you've just described as a possibility whether or not 12 that in fact occurred? 13 A: What's that? 14 Q: Well, that the information that's 15 coming into the TOC may be a distraction? 16 A: I -- I don't know whether it was or 17 wasn't. 18 Q: Was it a distraction to you? 19 A: That would have been my function to - 20 - to deal with that information coming in. 21 Q: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: You've just indicated that there was
951 no barrier as between the front compartment and the area 2 that you would have been situated in? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And how was this information coming 5 in? 6 A: Through -- through radio. There was 7 two (2) sets of radios there; one (1) is the OPP channel 8 or radio net and the other is the TRU team radio. 9 They're separate. They can't communicate and my function 10 would be the go-between, between -- between those two (2) 11 radio nets. 12 Q: You'd be listening to information 13 coming in on both nets? 14 A: Both at the same -- both at the same 15 time. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: So if Crowd Management or ERT or 18 outer perimeter people needed to pass information on to 19 TRU it would go through the TOC and I -- I would be the 20 link to make that communication. 21 And the purpose of that is to keep both 22 isolated from each other so that if something's happening 23 on the inner perimeter they can still communicate while 24 something separate might be happening on the outer 25 perimeter.
961 Q: Okay. In terms of the information 2 that you would have been -- been listening to from the 3 TRU net, would that information be coming over a -- a 4 speaker system? Is that the idea? 5 A: There was an external speaker that I 6 could hear. 7 Q: You wouldn't have been on a -- on a 8 closed microphone, so that -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- only you could hear it? 11 A: No. There's a -- 12 Q: So I take it -- 13 A: -- it was on a speaker. 14 Q: And I take it that Carson and 15 Skinner, who were also in the same vehicle in close 16 proximity, they could also hear this same -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- information? 19 A: They could. Yes, they could. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: In terms of setting up, or in terms 24 of your responsibilities at the TOC site, following your 25 meeting with -- with Tex, as you've indicated to us, you
971 began to set up the recorder and members of the TRU team, 2 you've advised us, have begun to kit up. 3 What were your responsibilities at the TOC 4 site, insofar as setting up the recorder? 5 A: I would have had to activate the 6 recorder, set it up. That evening, we were having 7 difficulties with -- with the truck, keeping the truck 8 running, whether it was too much drain on -- on the 9 battery. It kept on stalling. 10 Every time it stalled, it would trip the 11 inverter. The logger recorder operates on 110 house 12 current and the truck produces 12 volts so there was an 13 inverter there to -- to give you 110 to operate it. 14 If the truck was turned off, the inverter 15 would trip and the logger recorder would go off. The 16 truck went off at least on three (3) occasions that 17 evening in the process of setting it up. 18 I found -- I found that as a distraction, 19 when I was doing that. To get it going again, you would 20 have to go out, walk around the truck, go around to the 21 driver' side, set it back up -- start it back up again 22 and then go back into the back of the box to set up the 23 logger recorder. 24 The logger recorder, approximately 25 eighteen (18) inches by maybe a foot high; another twelve
981 (12) inches deep or eight (8) inches deep. 2 It -- it ran on a VHS tape, a video tape 3 is what it would record on. It was held on a steel shelf 4 behind the driver's position of the van. 5 It had cargo straps that held it into 6 place. It wasn't bolted down but -- so it wouldn't fall 7 on the floor, it had cargo straps. A couple of straps 8 across this way and a couple up and down. 9 The functions on the logger recorder are 10 similar to a standard old tape recorder, so you would 11 have a 'stop', a 'play', a 'rewind' a 'fast forward' and 12 a 'record' button. 13 To activate the record function, you would 14 have to press two (2) buttons at the same time, the 15 'play' and the 'record'; that's how we would set it up. 16 Q: All right. And you've indicated to 17 us earlier that this wouldn't have been your normal 18 function. You would have been on the ground, I think 19 you'd indicated? 20 A: That's -- that's correct. I would 21 have been on the ground. 22 Q: But nonetheless, you had training in 23 the set up of this equipment. 24 A: Yes, I was aware how to set it up. 25 Q: And certainly you had the officer,
991 that is Ken Deane, who would have normally been in charge 2 of this, to assist you in the event that you needed any 3 assistance? 4 A: That -- that's correct. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Insofar as this recording equipment, 9 officer, did you -- do you have any recollection of 10 performing any tests to ensure its proper function? 11 A: I don't recall today conducting any 12 tests. 13 Q: Is that something that -- that -- 14 A: That would have a procedure -- 15 Q: -- you would have done in -- 16 A: That would have been a procedure that 17 we were to do, but my recollection today, actually 18 physically doing it, I don't have that. 19 Q: All right, thank you. You had been 20 assigned to this particular duty on one (1) previous 21 occasion, that is TAC 2? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. And can you tell us then 24 whether or not the recorder function... 25 A: It's to my belief it was set up
1001 correctly at that time. TRU team were not deployed at 2 that call but I went through all the functions of setting 3 -- setting up the TOC and then prior to our deployment, 4 the individual that -- that we were going to contain or 5 detail with, surrendered. 6 Q: All right, thank you. In terms of 7 your notes, Officer, I had referred you to the entries at 8 the bottom of your page 55 where Skinner gives you a 9 briefing on what occurred earlier that day; that is the 10 Natives confronting a civilian vehicle and smashed its 11 windows and near the front gate of the Park. 12 Now, this particular incident, do you know 13 what, if any, role or this information, what role if any 14 that that had and the calling of TRU out? 15 A: My understanding or my belief today 16 and -- and back then was that it -- it indicated an 17 escalation of -- of the occupation, that it was no longer 18 on the Provincial Park prop -- property, it had spilled 19 out onto the road -- on the roadway. 20 I was aware that there were some 21 information that there were threats of -- threats or 22 accusations to take cottages and I believe there was a -- 23 a fear that this was an escalation now that it come off 24 the Park and that may happen. 25 Q: All right. Your role then as you've
1011 indicated to us was to monitor the -- the TAC channel. 2 You were to act as liaison between the information coming 3 in on the TRU line or the TRU net I think as you've 4 described it -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- together with that channel that 7 the OPP generally was acting on? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: And then also convey -- normally then 11 to link that information to the Command Post which -- or 12 the Incident Commander which was Superintendent 13 -- Acting Superintendent Carson. 14 Q: Okay. And if I can ask you to again 15 to refer to your entries at your notebook, at your page 16 55, this is Exhibit P-1380, at the bottom of page 55 onto 17 page 56 and -- and so on. 18 These entries I take it would not be made 19 at the time? 20 A: No they were not. 21 Q: And in fact you would have kept a 22 separate log as to what you were listening to coming over 23 the TAC channel -- or TAC net? 24 A: That -- that's correct. There's a 25 period of time that I -- I was taking recordings of what
1021 I heard over the radio. 2 Q: May I ask you to turn to the document 3 at your Tab 6, please. It's Inquiry Document 1000889. 4 And you see the heading at the top, it reads, "Notes of 5 Richard Zupancic TRU"? 6 A: Yes, I see that. 7 Q: Do you recognize these notes first of 8 all? 9 A: Yes. These -- these are notes that I 10 -- I made after I got set up in the TOC and -- and our 11 officers were deployed. I started taking some notes just 12 as an indicator on where -- where the logger recorder 13 would be at a certain time. 14 Q: All right. On that logger recorder, 15 that's the device you've already explained to us, I take 16 it there would be some counter on that? 17 A: There was a counter -- there is a 18 counter on the machine. 19 Q: Perhaps I can ask that these notes be 20 made the next exhibit, please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1381, Your Honour. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. DONALD WORME: They are already? I'm
1031 sorry. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: They already are, I 3 believe. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: Right. I'm -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe that they 6 are Exhibit P-476. 7 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm told by several of 8 My Friends that in fact this is already an exhibit, 9 Commissioner, P -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P? 11 MR. DONALD WORME: -- P-476. I'm sorry, 12 Mr. Registrar. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: So these are the notes that you would 16 have commenced taking at the time? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: I take it that this would have been 19 after you would have engaged the recording equipment? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. And perhaps you can just 22 go through that for us. The first entry. 23 A: "22:19. Farmer for Spud separated 24 for minutes. Skinner instructs for 25 them to link up."
1041 Q: And you're indicated Farmer and Spud 2 are -- 3 A: Farmer is Constable Dave Strickler 4 and Spud is Constable Jim Irvine. They're Sierra -- and 5 if I could just look, I believe Sierra 1, but just let me 6 take a peek at the assignments. 7 Q: Sierra 1? 8 A: This is Sierra 1. 9 Q: All right. The entry at 22:20 hours? 10 A: "Spud to Farmer. Two (2) people on 11 road near your L, do not move." 12 Q: And "L" I take that to be location? 13 A: Location. Indicating to mean 14 location. 15 "TAC 1, S1, S2, once you are in 16 position, advise." 17 And then at 22:21: 18 "Spud to TAC 1, people out looking for 19 me. I think they have sent people out 20 looking for them. 21 22:22: Crowd Control moving to roadway 22 with K-9. 23 SPUD FARMER: Okay to move? 24 SPUD: Negative. Lost location of two 25 (2) persons.
1051 22:24: Carson advised call -- Carson 2 advises call CMU to move up to road 3 towards Ipperwash. 4 22:27: S2 hears radio traffic. Does 5 not know if monitoring or their traffic 6 from. Spud tells Farm to freeze. 7 22:28: Dave, Spud, two (2) people near 8 me. Gone towards house. They have a 9 radio with them." 10 Q: Let me just stop you there if I may, 11 Officer, if I can get you to clarify the entry. At 22:24 12 hours Carson advises -- you -- you've read both call as 13 well as CMU? 14 A: It's CMU. 15 Q: All right. If you want to just 16 continue then to the next page of that exhibit? 17 A: "Tex to TAC 2: 22 -- [which is at 18 22:30] point five (0.5) km up TAC 2. 19 Two (2) males walking towards CMU. 20 Alpha will subdue if required." 21 Q: Just what does that mean, "Alpha will 22 subdue if required?" What -- what do you -- what are you 23 recording? 24 A: To -- to me it indicates that they'll 25 arrest or -- or grab or whatever -- take control of that
1061 person. Continue? 2 Q: Please. 3 A: Okay. 4 "Tex to TAC 2: Seventy-five (75) 5 metres [sorry, seventy-five (75) m]. 6 Stopped. Looking towards TOC location. 7 No long guns but may have portable 8 radio. 9 22:35 TAC to S1: Are you able to move? 10 S1 to TAC: negative. 11 S1 to A: Do you see the two 12 (2)parties? 13 A to S1: [There's nothing recorded] 14 A to TAC: Two (2) forward observers 15 have spotted CMU and are running back 16 to Park. Carson and CMU advised." 17 Q: Just let me stop you there again, 18 Officer, if I may, Carson and CMU advised -- you've 19 indicated that your job was to listen to this information 20 coming in on the TAC line and to relay that? 21 A: That -- that's what it indicates to 22 me that I -- I forwarded that information to Carson. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. Continue then 24 please? 25 A: "22:37 Tex S1 OP. Tex has open mic.
1071 22:39 ALPHA BEAU: Subject back on 2 roadway observing CMU. 3 TAC S1: Can you move? 4 S1 TAC: Negative. Will take some 5 time. 6 22:42 Two (2) lane from lane where they 7 were dropped off. 8 22:44 CMU advancing from Tex. Subject 9 has weapon. Appear to be a rifle or 10 bow. 11 22:46 Subject is backing off. 12 22:47 Five (5) persons gather in gate 13 site. 22:48 FARM SPUD: Subject 14 close. Stay quiet. Stick and radio is 15 carried. 16 10:52 S2 and Alpha can cover CMU. CMU 17 advised by Skinner. 18 S1 TOC can cover CMU left flank. CMU 19 at gate. Push party -- parties back to 20 Park. Minor skirmish. Push Natives 21 back twenty (20) yards from gate. 22 CMU. CMU advise to take an offensive 23 (sic) position. 24 TEX TOC: Original barricade at gate. 25 [It's -- it's an "HA"] Ha been moved.
1081 2 22:59, CMU has moved back to pavement 3 in a [it's not completed] 4 22:01, CMU --" 5 Q: Excuse me, is that -- does that read 6 22:01 or 23:01? 7 A: Pardon me, 23:01. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: "23:01, CMU overheard starting a 10 charge. Get back, go, go. Alpha advises CMU 11 has [let me repeat this] 12 Alpha advises CMU advance has one (1) 13 10-92. Alpha, repeat, one (1) 10-92 14 with CMU." 15 Q: And just before we leave that area, 16 what is 10-92. 17 A: Prisoner. 18 Q: Right. The entry at 23:01: 19 "CMU overheard starting a charge. Get 20 back, go, go." 21 That's something you would have been 22 recording, listening as you indicated, to both channels? 23 A: Yes. I would have picked up that 24 "get back, go, go", off the OPP net, not the TRU team 25 net.
1091 This -- this indicator -- this is an aid 2 to relay back to those -- those channels. 3 Q: Thank you. If you can turn back to 4 the earlier page, the entry at 22:44 hours. You see 5 that? 6 "Subject has a weapon. It appears to 7 be a rifle or a bow." 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And at 22:46: 10 "Subject is backing off." 11 Did you -- do you have any independent 12 recollection of what confirmation or, if any, about what 13 the subject has, whether it was a rifle or a bow? 14 A: At that -- at that time, no. I'm 15 just recording this. Somewhere in my mind, I believe it 16 had something to do with -- if there's some notes there 17 about somebody with a radio or an antenna. Was is not 18 something... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yeah, but that's not here. I'm not 23 sure where I got that from. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1101 Q: All right. And do you have any other 2 recollection, sir, about things you might have heard on 3 either net as to what was going on at that time? 4 A: A -- a -- after... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: After your notes, yes. 9 A: Yeah, after my notes. It stops here 10 at 23:01. 11 Then at that time there's a report of a 12 bus being driven through the Crowd Management Unit. 13 There's shots being fired. Officers returning fire and 14 then there's a car that drives through towards the CMU. 15 There's more shots being fired. 16 There's a request for an ambulance and I'm 17 directed to go and take Slomer down the road towards the 18 location of the Park. 19 Q: And this recollection you've just 20 described, it obviously encompasses some time period. 21 Can you tell us what time period that would -- that would 22 be. 23 A: Yes. In my mind it -- it's a minute, 24 a couple of minutes. Just enough that as I'm writing 25 this out, I'm getting caught up on my notes. It happens
1111 and before I can put pen back to paper to start recording 2 that, I get directed -- directed out. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And you'll agree with me that that's 7 pretty important information. I mean, people would think 8 that to be fairly important. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: It's not included in your logger 11 notes. 12 A: No, it isn't. 13 Q: Can you tell us why not? 14 A: Well, it's -- it was my belief at 15 that time that our -- our OPP net was being recorded. 16 Also the time involved to -- to put it on paper. As I 17 was writing this, that starts to happen, I'm listening to 18 it. I'm focussed on what is happening and then before I 19 get a chance to put pen to paper, I'm or -- I'm ordered 20 to take Slomer down the road. 21 Q: All right. And we'll come to that in 22 a moment. I'm going to ask you to turn back to your 23 notes if you would, please, at Tab 5. It's Exhibit P- 24 1380. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Worme, I
1121 think Mr. Falconer's trying to get your attention. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: Perhaps just one (1) clarification 7 before we -- we move off of your notes. I'm going to ask 8 you to turn to the third page of that. It's marked as 9 111. This is your logger notes which are -- 10 A: What tab are we on? 11 Q: Tab Number 6, Exhibit P-476. If you 12 go to the third page of that. Are you with me on that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You see at the entry at 10:52 hours? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: If you go down to the entry that 17 commences: 18 "Twenty (20) yards from gate. (CMU) [in 19 brackets]." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: It reads: 22 "CMU advised to take..." 23 Perhaps you can just read that again for 24 me if you would please? 25 A: "CMU advised to take a defensive
1131 position." 2 Q: Right. It's just that I -- the 3 record may indicate that you earlier spoke -- or read 4 that to be "offensive position". 5 A: Oh I -- defensive. 6 Q: Thank you. Again if I can take you 7 back to your notes at Tab Number 5. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: See the entry commencing at -- at the 12 bottom of page 55. 13 "S1 and S2 deployed..." 14 A: Yes, yes. 15 Q: Can you just continue from there if 16 you would please? 17 A: "S1 and S2 deployed and report back. 18 It is difficult to move. Natives are 19 off the Park looking for police along 20 the cottages." 21 Continue? 22 Q: Yes. And -- and I take it just 23 before you move off -- on with respect to these 24 particular entries, Officer, that you've already 25 confirmed for us, you made these entries afterwards;
1141 after the fact? They weren't made at the time. 2 A: Yeah. What -- what happens here is, 3 I -- I'm -- that's correct. They were made the next day. 4 I'm trying to capture in chrono -- chronological order 5 what has happened, right? So I'm writing my notes from 6 my recollection. 7 I get to the point where I say, "off the 8 Park looking for police and cottages" and then at that 9 point I refer to the logger notes and I writer the logger 10 notes right into my notebook -- 11 Q: All right. 12 A: -- to capture the chronological order 13 of what transpired during that time. 14 Q: Okay. And how is it that you know 15 that the -- as you put, the Natives are looking -- are 16 off the Park looking for police? 17 A: This is -- this is information I hear 18 over the TRU net from the Sierra units that were 19 deployed. 20 Q: All right. And then the -- the 21 notations from 22:19 onward, they are taken directly 22 from -- 23 A: Directly from that log -- 24 Q: -- from the -- 25 A: -- they should have been noted word
1151 for word from the log. And that's what I be -- copy -- 2 copy from radio log made by me. And -- and to me that 3 indicates that I just copied right from that other 4 document that we looked at on page 6, copied into my 5 notes. 6 Q: If I can take you to the next page of 7 that at -- that would be your page 57. See the entry at 8 22:59 hours at the bottom of that page "CMU has moved 9 back to pavement in a..."? 10 A: Yes, I see that. 11 Q: Is that blank? In a blank? 12 A: This sentence just ends. I -- 13 Q: And that's -- and that's exactly what 14 you've had on the log? 15 A: Yes, I -- I -- something else 16 happened before I could finish that sentence. And as I 17 was describing before, I'm trying to -- I'm writing these 18 down as it happens on -- on the foolscap, on the log. 19 And that's kind of indicates what it was 20 like 22:59 I'm writing down that happens and then all of 21 a sudden CMU, it was overheard, starting a charge. I 22 don't complete my sentence. I -- I write 23:01 and -- 23 and try to capture that now. 24 Q: Okay. And that again corresponds to 25 the entry on the log where it reads:
1161 "Starting a charge." 2 Quote: 3 "Get back." 4 Quote: 5 "Go, go." End quote. 6 "Alpha advises CMU advance. Has a 10- 7 92 Alpha..." 8 A: "Repeat 10-92 with -- with CMU." 9 And then you see the line: 10 "End of my written log?" 11 Q: Right. 12 A: So that's the point I quit copying 13 from the written log and go back to my recollection of 14 what -- what happened after that. 15 Q: And would you just for the -- for the 16 purposes of our record then continue with your entries 17 there? 18 A: Okay. 19 "I could hear over both radios, the TAC 20 and the TRU, bus has driven through 21 centre of CMU followed by a car. 22 Reports of police being fired upon and 23 returning fire. Request for an 24 ambulance made. Slomer and I proceed 25 in 47-885 towards the Park. En route.
1171 Advised that ambulance not required and 2 members are returning to TOC. Slomer 3 and myself returned to TOC. Once 4 members are back at TOC place S1 and S2 5 in defensive position around TOC area. 6 ERT members are pulled back to man 7 checkpoint -- points in front of TOC. 8 All quiet for rest of the evening. 9 Back note each time 42-308 was turned 10 off for whatever reason (three (3) 11 times)[in brackets]. Breaker switch 12 would trip turning off..." 13 And I'm trying to read my own note. 14 Q: Is that audio -- 15 A: Audio -- 16 Q: -- entire? 17 A: "-- recorder. Recorder. Video 18 recorder did not record events. I 19 failed to properly start the recorder, 20 thus the tape used is blank or does not 21 have the recordings of the evening's 22 events. 23 05:34 [5:34] TOC turned over to Barrie 24 TRU members Girard -- Barrie TRU member 25 Girard. Returned to Pinery. 08:00 off
1181 duty." 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And just so if I may take you back, 6 the -- the last entry on the -- on your page 53 of those 7 -- of that Exhibit 1308 -- 8 A: Page 53? 9 Q: Right. On September the 5th of '95 10 you would have went off duty at, well, one o'clock in the 11 morning of September the 6th. 12 You'd have had some six (6) hours of time 13 off? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Recommenced duty at 07:00? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And essentially stayed on duty until 18 the morning of the 7th 08:00 hours, some twenty-five (25) 19 hours later? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I just want to take you back to the -
1191 - to -- to the problems of the van stalling. You -- you 2 have it recorded here in your notebook that it would go 3 off and it went off some three (3) times in total and on 4 each occasion the audio equipment would be tripped off? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And you would have to start it on 7 each occasion would you? 8 A: I'd -- I'd have to start it back up. 9 Now, whether I got to the point to start it back up 10 before it stalled again I don't recall today. 11 What I do recall is the fact that the 12 vehicle wouldn't stay running and I kept on getting 13 pulled away from my task in the TOC of setting up the TOC 14 to deal with keeping the truck running and getting that 15 equipment set up once again. 16 So whether I physically did that three (3) 17 times or whether I -- I did it once and it tripped once 18 and then I never got back to it until the next time I -- 19 I can't recall today. 20 Q: All right. And I understand that 21 some measures were taken in an attempt to lower the power 22 draws so as to avoid the stalling of that vehicle? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And what measures -- 25 A: Turn off -- turn off some lights,
1201 reduce what -- whatever way we could to keep the -- so -- 2 so that the truck would stay running. 3 Q: All right. And did that have any 4 effect on your ability to record your notes or the log as 5 you were -- as you were writing it out? 6 A: There was a small light on, limited 7 light. It -- I don't -- I don't believe that it had any 8 effects on -- on recording -- me recording this log, is 9 that what you're referring to? 10 Q: Yes, I am. 11 A: It was low light, but I was -- I was 12 still able to do this much. 13 Q: And do you recall testifying as such 14 at the trial of Kenneth Deane? The criminal trial of 15 Kenneth Deane? 16 A: And I remember testifying to this, 17 but was there a specific line there that you're referring 18 to? 19 Q: I'll ask you then to turn your 20 attention to the document at Tab 12. That is a 21 transcript of your evidence. It's Inquiry Document 22 1005299. 23 It would appear to be the trial of Kenneth 24 Deane, dated 16th of April 1997. 25 If I can ask you to turn to page 85 of
1211 that. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: It would appear that you're asking 6 yourself a question, but I'm sure that's not so. Towards 7 the middle of the page, do you see that? 8 Oh, I'm sorry, that -- it's the Court 9 asking you a question. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Are you with me there? 14 A: Yes, I'm with you. 15 Q: "I have one question that I wish to 16 ask, Officer Zupancic. Do you recall 17 what the lighting was when you were in 18 the van? 19 And then you go on to reply: 20 "The lighting was reduced. We usually 21 run maybe one (1) small light." 22 "The Court: I gather there was 23 sufficient lighting for you to make 24 your notes?" 25 You answer:
1221 "Yes." 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And if you just turn to the next page 4 of that, there's a re-examination by Mr. Peel. 5 "You see, just one question. Just one 6 arising from that. With respect, sir, 7 sir was the lighting reduced as part of 8 an effort to avoid a recurrence? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Of the problem? 11 A: Initially we figured that the 12 reason the vehicle stalled was that -- 13 stalled, there was too much drain on 14 the battery and it just sputtered out, 15 so we tried reducing the amount of 16 light and -- in the place to try to cut 17 the power drop. Thank you." 18 All right, and that -- 19 A: Yes. That's correct. 20 Q: Perhaps I can ask that that be made 21 the next exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1381, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1381: Document Number 1005299. R. 25 v. Ken Deane: Examination-
1231 in-chief and Cross- 2 examination of Constable 3 Richard Zupancic, April 16, 4 1997. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 7 Q: Let me get back to the -- this 8 recording machine again, if I may. You've indicated it 9 had a series of buttons and that in order for the record 10 function to play, what -- what did you need to do? 11 A: You'd have to press the play and the 12 record button at the same time. My recollect -- my 13 belief is that when I -- I went to do that, there's -- 14 the straps that were holding in -- in the place obscured 15 the light over above the record -- the recording button, 16 so when I depressed the -- the buttons, a light came on. 17 The counter started to count. The tape started to 18 advance. I was under the belief that it was operating 19 properly. 20 And it wasn't until I came back some time 21 later and took a look at it I discovered that it -- that 22 wasn't the case. 23 Q: When was it that you discovered that 24 it wasn't the case? 25 A: When -- when we returned to the TOC
1241 location after I had went down the road with Slomer and 2 returned back, realizing a significant event had happened 3 and Skinner made some kind of indication like, check to 4 make sure we have that. 5 I went -- I looked at the logger recorder 6 and from what I saw, I was under the impression that it 7 wasn't recording, it hadn't recorded. 8 Q: Having that information, what did you 9 do with it? 10 A: I -- I advised Sergeant Skinner that 11 it appears that it may not have recorded. 12 Q: What was his response or instruction 13 as -- 14 A: Well, it was -- 15 Q: -- a result of that advice. 16 A: It was obvious that he was upset. 17 But we had other things that we had to deal with at the 18 time. It -- I -- obviously was disappointed or upset 19 that it -- it didn't capture the events. 20 Q: You were still operational at that 21 point? 22 A: Yes, we were. 23 Q: Your members were out there. 24 A: They were there. We still had tasks 25 that we had to do, our function.
1251 Q: Did you take steps at that point, 2 sir, to engage the recording equipment? 3 A: Sitting here today, I can't -- I 4 can't -- I can't recall myself physically doing it, but I 5 can't imagine for a second that I didn't do something to 6 -- to make the machine function at that point. 7 Q: All right. You did do something? 8 A: Yes, I did do something. 9 Q: And do you have an independent recall 10 of what that something might be? 11 A: Sitting here today I don't. 12 Q: Do you know approximately what time 13 it is that you would have performed this task to ensure 14 the proper operation of the recording device once you 15 realized that it wasn't engaged properly? 16 A: It would have been within a fifteen 17 (15) period time of returning to the TOC. I -- I don't 18 have a time recorded but if -- if we went down the road 19 right after that last notation in my log, it would be 20 22:59. 21 Q: That last -- Yes. 22 A: 22:59 if within a minute it's 22:30 23 we go down the road, we're down the road for maybe 24 fifteen (15) minutes we're gone and we come back. So 25 some time around 22:30, 23:30 is the time I -- I would
1261 put on discovering that the logger recorder wasn't 2 working. 3 Q: And as a result of discovering it 4 wasn't working, you've indicated you would have taken 5 steps to ensure it was working. 6 A: I can't imagine myself not -- just 7 looking at the machine and going it's not working and 8 then just leave it -- it at that. 9 Q: In particular, in light of what 10 you've advised us, that your superior officer was not 11 pleased with this. 12 A: No. That's correct. 13 Q: All right. And at 23:30 hours when 14 you took this action to engage the recording equipment 15 properly, I take it you were satisfied or do you have an 16 independent recall that in fact it wasn't so engaged? 17 A: I don't -- I don't recall that period 18 of time what our functions were. It was right after a 19 shooting. The engagement with the CMU and the bus and 20 the car, I would have been busy dealing with the 21 different stuff in the TOC and it would be just as simple 22 as -- as pressing the play and record button at that 23 point for the machine to work properly. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: But I -- I don't -- I don't have a
1271 physical recollection of doing that. 2 Q: Do you have a recollection, sir, at 3 that point or any period following that of checking the 4 tape to ensure that your subsequent actions of engaging 5 the recording equipment were in fact successful? 6 A: Later on in the evening some time in 7 between being relieved by Barrie and advising Sergeant 8 Skinner that -- that I believe the recording wasn't 9 captured. I did some tests to see if -- if there was 10 something there and it -- it confirmed that there may not 11 be anything on -- on the tape. 12 Q: Okay. Did you listen to the entire 13 tape at any point in time? 14 A: No, I did not. No I -- I performed 15 some quick tasks because we're still operational, trying 16 to get some quick tasks to see if I -- I could find 17 something on there. 18 Q: All right. At any point subsequent 19 to that following when you became non operational -- 20 A: Afterwards. 21 Q: -- after the operation -- 22 A: Yes, I -- 23 Q: -- did you have occasion to check the 24 tape? 25 A: Yes. Yes, I -- yes, I checked. Yes
1281 I -- I examined the whole tape. 2 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 3 A: And I did not capture the event. 4 Q: All right. Was there any point in 5 time even following the event that it began recording? 6 A: I have notes in my notebook when I -- 7 when I went back to listen to it, there was some 8 indication that the only -- the only transmission that it 9 -- it heard was sometime around 4:12 in -- in the 10 morning. 11 And -- and I can't -- I can't explain why 12 -- why that was at that time. 13 Q: So between approximately 11:30 or 14 23:30 hours when you noted that the machine was not 15 working properly? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And you took steps to engage it? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: To between when you're telling us now 20 that at 4:12 there was some recording on it, you have no 21 explanation as to why that was so? 22 A: I -- I can't explain that today. 23 Q: Just before we move away from this 24 area once you returned to the TOC site the balance of the 25 -- of the members returned as I understand your evidence,
1291 yes? 2 A: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. 3 Q: Did you have any conversations with 4 any of the TRU members that you can recall today? 5 A: No, not directly. 6 Q: All right. Did you have any 7 conversation with Kenneth Deane that you can recall 8 today? 9 A: No. No, I did not. 10 Q: And again I'll ask you to turn to the 11 transcript of your testimony at Tab 12, it's marked as 12 Exhibit P-1381, and again to page 84 of that if you 13 would, sir? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: You see the entry at the top of the 18 page, the question to you: 19 "No, okay. Did you hear Sergeant Deane 20 say anything about seeing a Native with 21 a long arm over the communication 22 tapes? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you hear him say anything 25 about shooting a Native?
1301 A: No." 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: So you neither heard anything over 4 the channel that you were listening to, nor were you told 5 anything by him subsequently, is that -- is that fair? 6 A: That -- that's correct in -- in 7 relation to -- around the period of time of the -- of the 8 gunfire, the bus, and the car. There was that report 9 that he saw somebody with a bow or a gun earlier on in 10 the -- in the evening. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. 12 A: But in reference around the bus and 13 the car and the shooting there was -- I don't recall any 14 of that or afterwards. 15 Q: Thank you, sir. Just lastly, with 16 respect to this transcript you've had a chance to review 17 this transcript? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: And you'll agree that that's an 20 accurate transcription of what was stated at that point 21 in time? 22 A: Yes, it is. 23 Q: Thank you. Did you observe Kenneth 24 Deane talking with anybody else once they returned back 25 to the TOC Centre following your return there with
1311 Officer Slomer or with Medic Slomer? 2 A: When you -- when you form that 3 question you mean specifically about the events of the 4 night? 5 Q: I'm talking immediately about the 6 shooting incident when everybody returned to the TOC 7 site. 8 A: Everyone returns to the TOC. Kent 9 Skinner's out there, he's talking to the members. I'm 10 standing back. I'm in the TOC or just outside of the TOC 11 and people are talking. I can't recall any specific 12 conversation. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: But -- 15 Q: That's the question I was going to 16 ask you. Yes, go ahead. 17 A: Yeah. Ken Deane's there. Ken Deane 18 talks to people. Do I remember anything specific about 19 it? No, I don't. 20 Q: All right. Just if I can finish up 21 with the -- with the tape, I take it that you would have 22 taken possession of the recording tape? 23 A: Yes, I did. When -- we turned the 24 TOC over to Constable -- Constable Girard of the Barrie 25 TRU team I would have taken possession of the tape at
1321 that time. 2 Q: Your notes indicate that that 3 occurred at 05:34 hours? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. And what did you do with 6 that tape? 7 A: I kept it in my possession. 8 Q: And I understand that when you say it 9 was kept in your possession it would have been kept in an 10 unsecured locker? 11 A: Yeah. It -- it was kept in my 12 locker. The locker is inside of our office which is a 13 secure office; it has an alarm system to that specific 14 office. It's within a building that also has a separate 15 alarm system on it. It was in my mind put in -- in a 16 safe spot. 17 Q: Other than yourself was there anybody 18 else who may have had access to this particular tape? 19 A: Myself and if anyone knew where it 20 was or any of the other TRU members, if -- if they knew 21 it was in that specific spot they'd have access because 22 they have access to the office; it was kept -- my 23 locker's in an office that's restricted to TRU team 24 members. 25 Q: All right.
1331 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Can you tell us whether there was any 4 policy or protocol with respect to the logger tapes that 5 you've just described you had kept in your locker? 6 A: If -- the policy on the logger tape, 7 if it was -- if there was something on the tape it would 8 go with the operational report. The operational report 9 would be put into a file and -- and kept in -- in a file 10 cabinet, inside our office. 11 Q: All right. And what happened with 12 this tape ultimately, Officer? 13 A: It was turned over to SIU. 14 Q: When was that? 15 A: That was the night before I testified 16 at Ken Deane's trial. 17 Q: And again the -- your testimony which 18 is the exhibit at Tab 12, would have been on the 16th of 19 April, so can we take it from that, that it would have 20 been turned over on the 15th of April, 1997? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Can you tell us whether, in the 23 intervening period, between the time when you put it in 24 your locker and you turned it over to SIU, whether there 25 was any further examinations of that tape by yourself?
1341 A: Yeah. Yes, there was. I -- I 2 listened to it when I came back from -- I -- after -- the 3 next day after the 6th, my back got to such a state that 4 I couldn't even do light duties and I had -- I had to 5 return home and I went off for two (2) weeks. 6 At -- some time after that, I recall 7 listening to it trying to find something on there. I 8 couldn't find anything on there and then prior to meeting 9 with Norm Peel, some time later, I listened to line to 10 line to line, right through the whole thing and wasn't 11 able to -- to find anything on that tape. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: After being relieved by the Barrie 17 TRU team as you've indicated to us, at 05:34 hours, what 18 did you do? 19 A: Returned to the Pinery and off duty 20 and went to sleep. 21 Q: All right. Did you have occasion to 22 discuss the events with anybody prior to or at the -- the 23 Pinery when you returned to there to go to sleep? 24 A: No, we did not discuss the events. 25 Q: Okay. I understand that in and
1351 around that period, you had occasion to meet with the 2 person you've just described, Mr. Peel? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that was your legal Counsel? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you were given legal advice, we 7 understand? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And that advice was to -- not to 10 discuss the events? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And to write your notes? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that is what you did, I take it? 15 A: That's what I did. 16 Q: Did you retain Counsel other than 17 that at that time? 18 A: Personally? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: All right. And other than turning 22 your notes or pardon me, the tape over on the 16th of 23 April, 1997 to SIU, did you have any occasion to meet 24 with any of the members of SIU? 25 A: No, I did not.
1361 Q: At the point in time when you turned 2 the tape over to SIU, did you provide an interview at 3 that time? 4 A: I -- I believe I did, yes. 5 Q: Have you seen any indication or did 6 you see any transcript of such interview? 7 A: I don't recall. I don't recall that 8 -- whether over the years I saw that. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I don't believe I did. 13 Q: All right. And just lastly, sir, at 14 pages 83 and 84 of the transcript at page -- pardon me, 15 at Tab 12, Exhibit P -- 16 A: Which page, please? 17 Q: 83 and 84. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: I want to take you down to the middle 20 of that page. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Just beyond where the questions are 25 asked of you with respect to the TRU tape, I want you to
1371 go a little further down. 2 "Q: Okay, so I want to focus right 3 now on what you heard over the comm. 4 tapes, okay? And this would be the TRU 5 comm. tapes, okay? Did you ever hear 6 Sergeant Deane say anything about 7 seeing muzzle flashes? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Well, if you had recalled, would 10 you have made a note of it? 11 A: Ah, oh, okay. It's over the 12 radio. 13 Q: No, well, as we've discussed, I'm 14 trying to -- yes, over the radio. 15 A: No." 16 Continuing on to the next page the 17 question is put to you: 18 "No, okay did you hear Sergeant Deane 19 say anything about seeing a Native with 20 a long arm over the communication 21 tapes? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you hear him say -- saying 24 anything about shooting a Native? 25 A: No."
1381 Right? And that's -- 2 A: That's correct. That's correct. 3 Q: All right. And that's consistent 4 with your memory of that event of today as well? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: All right. Commissioner, I'm 7 wondering if this might be an appropriate place to take a 8 lunch break. I can tell you that I just have one (1) -- 9 pardon me, two (2) further areas which will be very 10 brief. 11 And it might also be useful to canvas My 12 Friends on -- on -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now or after 14 you finish? 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Well we can certainly 16 do it after I finish because it may affect their 17 estimates or we could certainly to do that now. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I think 19 we should wait until you finish. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: All right, thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll wait 22 until you finish and then we'll canvas counsel. 23 We'll take our lunch break now. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, sir. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands
1391 adjourned until two o'clock. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 2:03 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Officer Zupancic, before the lunch 11 break, I had provided you through your counsel, a copy of 12 Exhibit P-438 which is a copy of the Chatham logger tape 13 0146 Track 12 being the TAC channel for the 6th of 14 September 1995 between the hours of 10:27 p.m. and 11:10 15 p.m. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you had a chance to review that 18 during -- during the break? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And can you confirm for us, sir, that 21 what is recorded in Exhibit P-348 or the transcript of 22 that conversation would be in fact what you would have 23 been listening to as you were engaged in your duties? 24 A: Part of it. Not in total. Part of 25 it I would have been listening to.
1401 Q: Meaning you would have heard some of 2 -- some of what's recorded on there but not all of it in 3 its entirety, is that fair? 4 A: That's -- that's correct. 5 Q: The last thing I wanted to ask you, 6 sir, we've heard something about the creation of mugs and 7 t-shirts with certain depictions thereon that had been 8 offered for sale among OPP members. Are you aware of 9 that, sir? 10 A: Yes, I'm aware of that. 11 Q: And had you taken possession of, that 12 is to say purchased or otherwise come into possession of 13 any such items? 14 A: I -- I obtained a t-shirt. But once 15 I realized that it was considered offensive, I discarded 16 it. 17 Q: And can you tell us where you 18 obtained it and when you determined that it was 19 considered offensive? 20 A: I -- I was off -- off with my bad 21 back after the incident. I was off for a couple of 22 weeks. I -- I can't recall specifically at what time 23 that -- that came into my possession. 24 But shortly some time after that I was 25 aware that it was considered offensive and -- and I just
1411 got rid of it. 2 Q: So are we talking within a matter of 3 weeks or months of the incident? 4 A: Weeks or months. Wee -- weeks or 5 months. I was away for two (2) weeks, somehow I got -- I 6 got possession of -- of a t-shirt and -- and then shortly 7 after that realizing that it was considered offensive I 8 discarded it. 9 MR. DONALD WORME: Those are all the 10 questions that I have of the Witness in-chief, Mr. 11 Commissioner. Perhaps we can then enquire of My Friends 12 as to who intends to cross-examine -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. DONALD WORME: -- and an estimate of 15 the time they might take. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: I believe we have the 18 Ontario Provincial Police firstly. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No more than 20 five (5) minutes. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Five -- five (5) 22 minutes max. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 24 Alexander...? 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Five (5) minutes.
1421 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Rosenthal...? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About an hour, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About an 5 hour? 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: One (1) hour, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Neil...? 9 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Twenty (20) minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 11 George...? 12 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Five (5) minutes, 13 sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 15 Falconer...? 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: One (1) hour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 18 go. 19 MR. DONALD WORME: Two hours (2) and 20 thirty-five (35) minutes would be the estimate, 21 Commissioner. So it would appear we could finish today, 22 assuming those times are maintained. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 Ms. Tuck-Jackson, let's get started. 25
1431 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 4 Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant. My name's 10 Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm going to ask you some questions 11 on behalf of the OPP. 12 If I can take you, sir, to Tab 5 of your 13 materials. They're your notes, September the 5th, 1995 14 and they've been marked as Exhibit P-1380 in these 15 proceedings, and in particular, I'm interested in the 16 entry at the bottom of page 55 carrying over to page 56. 17 Do you have that in front of you? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 20 you heard over the radio some feedback from the Sierra 21 teams that they were having difficulty positioning 22 themselves and in particular, you've told us that they 23 reported back: 24 "Natives are off the Park, looking for 25 police along the cottages.
1441 Do I have that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: All right. What I want to make 4 perfectly clear, for -- for the Commission, is to 5 understand that -- how that piece of information fits in 6 the chronology. 7 And as I understand your evidence, that 8 piece of information actually came in just before, not 9 long before, the CMU was actually deport -- deployed and 10 sent down the roadway? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. So that information was 13 in place before the CMU went down the road? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And, sir, in relation to the purpose 20 for which the CMU was sent down the road, is it fair to 21 say that it was your understanding that the reason it was 22 deployed when it was, and if we could just turn to your 23 notes of what you were hearing over the radio, they 24 appear at Tab 6. 25 They've been marked as P-476 and on the
1451 first page of your note -- of your notes, rather, you 2 have an entry corresponding to 22:24 where then-Inspector 3 Carson advises the CMU to move up the road towards 4 Ipperpop -- Ipperwash. 5 We can take it from that, that that is the 6 approximate time of deployment? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: All right. And again, going back to 9 my lead up, is it fair to say that your understanding of 10 the purpose of the deployment was to push back any 11 individuals who were outside of the Park, back into the 12 Park? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 14 minute. Yes, Mr. Falconer...? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: When the Witness 16 answers the question, the only difficulty I have is if 17 this Witness is -- if we're allowed to canvass through 18 this Witness the purpose of the deployment of CMU, then 19 that's obviously broader than the functions he was called 20 in-chief, which is fair enough. 21 But if My Friend's taking the position 22 that this Witness would have that knowledge, that is be 23 party with discussions with Carson or -- or that Carson 24 and Skinner et cetera, 'cause she's not asking what he 25 heard.
1461 She's going beyond that. She's actually 2 asking what the purpose of X was and what the purpose of 3 Y without establishing -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 5 should do some groundwork and -- 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Actually, I had 7 asked what his understanding of the purpose was and we 8 can pursue further what the basis of his understanding 9 was -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps you 11 should do that. 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- through the 13 questions. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 16 Q: So, let's go back. What was your 17 understanding of why the CMU was deployed by Inspector 18 Carson at -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 20 think you should do it the other way around. Establish 21 that he has some basis on which to have an opinion as to 22 why the CMU was called out, have a view. 23 I mean, at the moment, we don't know. He 24 doesn't have any -- we haven't any indication that he's 25 heard any of these conversations.
1471 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 3 Q: Well, let's start this way. Did you 4 have an understanding of why the CMU was sent down the 5 road? 6 A: Did I form one in my mind? 7 Q: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if -- on 9 what basis. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, that's 11 exactly right. Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: On what basis? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 14 haven't answered the first question. 15 THE WITNESS: No. Yeah, I formed an 16 opinion on why they were -- they moved down the road -- 17 why they were ordered down the road. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 20 Q: All right. On what basis did you 21 form that opinion or have that understanding? 22 A: From my observations of what I heard 23 over the radio and interaction. The fact that our Sierra 24 units were having difficult getting into position -- 25 Q: Right.
1481 A: -- and Native people were off of the 2 Park on -- 3 Q: Right. 4 A: -- on top of -- right on top of our 5 people, it was my belief that they were -- they were sent 6 down the road to move the Natives back into the Park to 7 take the pressure off of our Sierra units so they could 8 get into position; that was my understanding. 9 Q: Did you have any additional 10 understanding about any concern apart from the 11 positioning of the Sierra teams but any concern about the 12 presence of some of the occupiers being outside of the 13 Park and any concern that would raise in relation to the 14 cottagers? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Again -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- my difficulty 18 is, Mr. Commissioner, if My Friend -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can't hear 20 you, Mr. Falconer, perhaps -- 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you'd get 23 a little closer to the mic? 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But My Friend did 25 ask the question very fairly, What was the basis, and the
1491 Witness moved past basis and gave his understanding. We 2 still don't know what the -- he made a reference to a 3 radio and we still don't know what the basis for this 4 evidence is beyond sheer speculation; that is we -- if 5 there's a basis, fair enough, that is participation and 6 discussions, access to information but -- but at this 7 stage... 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 9 sure. 10 Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Let me go back 12 a bit. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 15 Q: You, upon your arrival at the TOC or 16 following your arrival at the TOC you had some contact 17 with your commander then -- I'm going to get his rank 18 wrong, I think it's Staff Sergeant Skinner. 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And while he was there he provided 21 certain information to you about events that had unfolded 22 earlier in the evening; is that correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And in part, or at least one (1) 25 aspect of the information that he conveyed to you was
1501 about an incident that involved a civilian in a vehicle 2 driving by the intersection of East Parkway Drive and 3 Army Camp Road? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: All right. You've also told us that 6 there was information that you were overhearing over the 7 radios and -- and I trust that what you mean by that is 8 information that would have been coming through both the 9 OPP TAC channel in addition to information coming through 10 over the TRU TAC channel; is that fair? 11 A: But what I was referring to was the 12 information I was hearing coming from the TRU channel 13 from our Sierra units that were deployed. 14 Q: I understand. All right. When Staff 15 Sergeant Skinner spoke to you did he give you, at that 16 point, an indication that the CMU was going to be going 17 down the road? 18 A: No, he did not. 19 Q: He did not. All right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: While you were at the TOC were you 24 present for or party to, and you may not have been, but 25 were you present for or party to any conversations
1511 between Inspector Carson and Staff Sergeant Skinner about 2 a concern for the cottagers or their property in relation 3 to or in the context of the occupiers who had come out of 4 the Park? 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Those are my questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 10 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 11 Mr. Alexander...? 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Zupancic. 15 A: Good afternoon. 16 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 17 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 18 several members of the George family and I just have a -- 19 a few clarifications I want to seek with you first. 20 To start off with I want to talk to you 21 about you switching positions with Acting Sergeant Deane 22 on the evening of the 6th. 23 As I understand your evidence you received 24 cross-training so that way you and other -- other members 25 of the TRU team can switch positions as necessary,
1521 correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: So it's not unusual to do that as 4 required? 5 A: No. No, it isn't. 6 Q: The next issue I want to explore with 7 you is with respect to the custody of the tape. Now if I 8 understand your evidence correctly, you took it on 9 September 7th to your personal locker at your -- at the 10 TRU office, correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And then it would have been handed to 13 the SIU the day before your testimony at Ken Deane's 14 trial? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And that would have been about a year 17 and a half? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And your locker is an unlocked 20 locker, correct? 21 A: The locker itself, it not locked. 22 Q: Now, I want to take you to a couple 23 of things that you said in your evidence in-chief and 24 compare that with a couple of things that you said during 25 your testimony when you testified at Ken Deane's trial.
1531 And for your reference I'm looking at Tab 2 12 which for the reference of My Friends is Inquiry 3 Document Number 1005299, Exhibit P-1381. And the cover 4 page indicates that it's Her Majesty the Queen versus Ken 5 Deane on the testimony on April 16th, 1997, correct? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And you'd agree with me that because 8 this was much closer to the incident, only a year and a 9 half or so afterwards, your memory would have been much 10 fresher at the time that you gave this evidence, correct? 11 A: It should have been. 12 Q: The first thing I want to ask you 13 about is the whole issue of the recording lights. Now, 14 if I understand your evidence correctly, what you 15 indicated was that straps may have been a reason why you 16 did not see the recording light on the evening of the 17 6th? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. I'd like to take you to page 20 74, please, and I'm going to start at line 24. This is 21 the cross-examination of yourself by Mr. Ian Scott on 22 this day. And it says: 23 "Q: All right. Now I just want to go 24 back briefly to the machine here, does 25 it have a light on it when it's
1541 recording? 2 A: Yes, it does. 3 Q: Does that light go on only 4 exclusively when the record mode is on 5 or does it go on when the play mode is 6 on as well? 7 A: There's two (2) lights. There's a 8 light over the play when the play is 9 on, there's a light over top of the 10 record when the record is on; the 11 record one is yellow, the play one is 12 green." 13 Next page. 14 "Q: Okay. 15 A: And when it's working properly, 16 set up properly, it's the yellow light 17 that illuminates when it's recording. 18 Q: Okay. And I just want to get this 19 straight. Did you simply not see the 20 yellow light not go on or did it go on 21 and deceive you? 22 A: No. It -- the play light, the 23 green light came on and I was of the 24 belief that that -- with that light on 25 it was running correctly.
1551 Q: So what you did was the green 2 light went on and you thought it was 3 also recording; is that fair? 4 A: That correct. 5 Q: Okay? 6 A: That correct." 7 That's an accurate summary of your 8 evidence at that time? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: And you'll not that during that 11 section of evidence you made no mention of a strap. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Okay. The other area I want to 14 briefly explore with you is with respect to the issue of 15 whether or not you made the same error once or three (3) 16 times during the evening of the 6th with respect to re- 17 starting the tape. 18 And you indicated that you could -- if I 19 understand your evidence in-chief correctly, you 20 indicated that you couldn't recall today. Is -- 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: If I could you please to page 79. 23 And starting at line 28 at the bottom of the page. 24 "Q: Okay. Just so I understand this, 25 is that the machine that was recording
1561 three (3) different times and shut off 2 three (3) different times or was it 3 just -- it never recorded? 4 A: It never recorded." 5 I'm going to skip to the next page, to 6 line 11 so page 80, line 11. 7 "Q: Okay. Each time TOC vehicle was 8 turned off for whatever reason, the 9 breaker switch would trip turning off 10 audio recorder, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Well does that mean that the 13 recorder was also placed on two (2) of 14 the three (3) times and then on the 15 final one, it just never got placed 16 back on or -- 17 A: I went over the tape and there's 18 nothing on that tape to indicate that 19 it was up and running. 20 Q: Ever? 21 A: That's right. I repeated the same 22 error each time in starting up the 23 tape." 24 Was that an accurate -- was that an 25 accurate reflection of what you said that day?
1571 A: Yes it was. Each time I started it 2 up I -- I guess what I tried to explain is I can't recall 3 whether I set it up the three (3) times, each time it -- 4 the engine stopped or whether I got distracted and had to 5 go back to the engine to start the engine up again before 6 I had to go set it up again. 7 So, I can't say whether I repeated that 8 same mistake three (3) times. 9 Q: Fair enough, that -- 10 A: That's the part that I just don't 11 recall. 12 Q: You don't recall that today, fair -- 13 correct? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: But in your evidence here, it says: 16 "I repeated the same error each time in 17 starting up the tape." 18 Correct? 19 A: That -- that's what it says there but 20 it doesn't say how many times I -- I went to the tape. 21 Q: Thank you, Sergeant Zupancic. I have 22 no further questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 24 Mr. Alexander. 25 Yes, Mr. Rosenthal...?
1581 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 afternoon. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Good afternoon, officer. 10 A: Good afternoon. 11 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal. I'm 12 Counsel on behalf of some of the Stoney Point people 13 under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group, sir. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now, I want to go right away to the 18 evening of September 6th, 1995 and you were in the TOC -- 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: -- the operations centre and you and 21 Carson and Skinner were together throughout most of the 22 evening, is that -- 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: -- correct? There was nobody else 25 right, but the three (3) of you?
1591 A: Slomer would have been around some 2 place. He was at our location but where -- where, I 3 don't recall. 4 Q: The three (3) of you were working 5 in -- 6 A: Close -- 7 Q: -- tandem with each other -- 8 A: Close proximity -- 9 Q: -- right? 10 A: -- to each other, yes. 11 Q: And your job was to monitor the TRU 12 communications and pass those on to Carson; that was the 13 main job that you had? 14 A: That was my main job and also be a 15 go-between, between the OPP channel and the TRU channel 16 if some communication had a go from one (1) unit to the 17 other. 18 Q: Yes. And then Inspector, as he now 19 is, Skinner, told us the other day that he was then 20 giving out instructions over the communication lines; you 21 were aware of that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That he -- he and Carson were making 24 decisions. Carson ultimately made the decisions. They 25 were discussing decisions but Carson ultimately made the
1601 decision and then he would relay over the -- over the 2 communication systems, basically, right? 3 A: Yes, he did. 4 Q: And you were doing your job, as 5 you've just described to us, in the process? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: In the course of that evening -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- Skinner was doing what I just 12 said, you were doing what you just said, and Carson was 13 there making the decisions, yeah? 14 A: It would have my role to broadcast 15 over the radio net the -- the fact that Skinner was in 16 close proximity to the radios, he may have, at times, 17 took the radio himself and -- and made that call. 18 Q: I see, but it was your -- 19 A: I -- 20 Q: -- responsibility to actually do the 21 broadcast to the TRU team? 22 A: That was the role that I was 23 fulfilling. 24 Q: So not only to receive information, 25 but also you were supposed to --
1611 A: That's correct. 2 Q: -- disseminate any instructions from 3 Inspector Carson to the TRU team; is -- 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: -- that correct? 6 A: But due to the fact that Skinner was 7 right there within hand reach to the radio, some times he 8 would do that instead of telling me and then I do it. 9 Q: You're standing right next to each 10 other, so sometimes instead of -- 11 A: Exactly. 12 Q: -- Inspector Skinner saying to you, 13 tell them this, he just took the mic and told them? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. Now, I want to get your 16 assistance on clarifying some of what happened that 17 evening, if we can. And there are a couple of documents 18 I should like to give you copies of that would assist 19 that, I think. 20 So, shall we, with your assistance, could 21 I please give this package to the Witness and to the 22 Commissioner, please. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1621 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: I've given you a one (1) page 6 document and a several page document. The one (1) page 7 is an excerpt of Exhibit P-426 to this proceeding, the 8 scribe notes for that evening, September 6th, 1995. 9 And on the copy that you have in front of 10 you, the one (1) page copy I have two (2) matters 11 circled; a number 1 and a number 2. 12 And this is at 20:49 that evening. And 13 the number 1 that I circled is: 14 "JOHN CARSON: All we are doing is 15 observation. We are not going 16 tactical, let's get that straight." 17 And then a little bit later on: 18 "JOHN CARSON: We are using TRU to go 19 in and get an eye. If they are just 20 having a campfire let's leave them. 21 Why go in the dark." 22 Now does that describe what your memory is 23 to what would have happened at 20:49 approximately, sir? 24 A: Yeah, just -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. Sorry.
1631 THE WITNESS: -- so I'm familiar what -- 2 I want to know what I'm looking at. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 5 sorry. I just wanted to point out that these are the 6 scribe notes from the Command Post. This officer was not 7 at the Command Post on the night of September the 6th. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 Q: Well, were you aware of -- of this? 11 There's those instructions at approximately 20:49 on that 12 evening, sir, wherever you may have been. 13 A: I don't -- I don't have a specific 14 recollection of hearing John Carson say that. 15 Q: No, but you -- you were aware that 16 that was the general idea, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: That -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. You were -- 21 A: Yes, and I understand now. 22 Q: So you don't know if you heard it 23 directly from Carson or not but you knew that at that 24 point at least the idea was to do observation -- 25 A: Yes.
1641 Q: -- and if they're just having a 2 campfire, or in other words if they're doing something 3 innocuous just leave it because it's dark, right? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Okay. Now, Inspector Skinner 6 testified for a couple of days last week here and the 7 second document that I handed you is some excerpts of the 8 transcript of his evidence of April 20th, 2006, beginning 9 at page 239. And I just want to go to a couple of parts 10 of that evidence and see if that refreshes your memory 11 and if -- if your memory is consistent with Inspector 12 Skinner's on those points. 13 And on -- on page 239, the first page of 14 the excerpt that I gave you, you'll see the reference to 15 the scribe notes, the section that I just read to you: 16 "All we're doing is observation, not 17 going tactical." 18 And then the next part: 19 "We're using TRU to go in and get an 20 eye. If they're just having a campfire 21 let's leave them." 22 And then the question for Inspector 23 Skinner after that -- so this is at the end of what would 24 be page 239 of the transcript. You'll notice, sir, that 25 the -- the transcript page numbers are in small numbers
1651 on this page and there are -- there's more than one (1) 2 page on the page. Do you -- do you follow? 3 A: Yeah. Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. So at the bottom of page 239 5 of the transcript and I -- I don't know if Mr. Millar 6 might be able to assist by -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm trying but I 8 can't. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: Oh, sorry. Usually when Mr. Millar 12 tries something he succeeds but don't know -- in any 13 event looking at the bottom of page 239 of the transcript 14 those two (2) portions are read to Inspector Skinner as 15 well and he then is asked: 16 "So the aspect that -- that never 17 changed as far as you were aware -- so 18 the aspect that never changed as far as 19 you were aware is if they're not doing 20 anything dangerous let's just not 21 interfere, right? 22 And he answered: 23 "That didn't change." 24 Can you -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I
1661 can't see where you're reading from right now, the bottom 2 of 239? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry. Yes, 239. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Page 239 line 23 -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Line 23. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- is where I just 8 began reading it. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I'm 10 with you now. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So I'll do it again 12 if I may. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: Beginning at the bottom of page 239 17 line 23: 18 So the aspect that never changed as far 19 as you were aware is if they're not 20 doing anything dangerous let's just not 21 interfere, right? 22 And Inspector Skinner answered: 23 "That didn't change. 24 And then that's what you understood by 25 him saying, If they're just having a
1671 campfire let's leave them? You didn't 2 require a campfire exactly? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: What he meant by that was as long 5 as they're not threatening anybody else 6 let's wait, it's dark, it's night, 7 let's not do anything, right? 8 A: I believe that's what he meant. 9 Q: And as far as you were aware that 10 never changed? 11 A: Correct." 12 Now, is that consistent with your memory, 13 sir? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, did -- 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: So there was no countermanding of 19 that instruction that emanated from the group that 20 Inspector Skinner and you and Carson were part of? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just 22 remember -- 23 THE WITNESS: I didn't -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Ms. Jones 25 pointed out, just before, Skinner was there and heard
1681 that comment, this Witness didn't hear that comment of 2 Inspector Carson's. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So with that 7 distinction. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Oh, yes, sir, but, 9 yes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But this 13 Witness was aware of that -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 15 was aware in a general way. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- that notion of 17 Inspector Carson. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: And -- and you confirmed that it was 22 your understanding that that idea that if they're not 23 doing anything dangerous don't interfere, that that idea 24 didn't change from the Command Centre and the TOC as far 25 as you were aware as Inspector Skinner told us, right?
1691 A: That -- that's correct. I'm having a 2 hard time understanding when this conversation actually 3 happened. 4 Q: Well, as -- as we saw earlier, sir -- 5 A: Like that -- that -- 6 Q: -- the -- according to the scribe 7 notes the original instruction that was being talked 8 about was at 20:49 but then Inspector Skinner was being 9 asked and we'll -- we'll continue in the transcript to 10 make it clearer as to whether that changed at any point 11 in the course of the evening as far as his instructions 12 or Carson instructions were concerned and his answers 13 were consistently no, that instruction never changed. 14 And what I'm asking you, sir, is that 15 consistent with your memory? 16 I'm sorry -- I'm sorry if I'm not 17 explaining myself clearly, sir. 18 A: I guess I'm just not understanding 19 the question. 20 Q: Yeah, sorry now -- well, it's 21 important that you do understand before you answer so let 22 me try and make it clearer if I may. 23 I would summarize Inspector Skinner's 24 evidence here as indicating the following; that the 25 instruction from Carson that if they're not doing
1701 anything dangerous -- 2 A: Carson is instructing who? 3 Q: Carson's general order. 4 A: Okay, yes. 5 Q: That you were aware of although you 6 don't know if you heard it directly from Carson, right? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: The general order that if they're not 9 doing anything dangerous, they're just having a campfire 10 or something innocuous, leave them be, right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: That's the general order and 13 Inspector Skinner told us that from the Command Centre 14 there, the place where the TOC where you and Skinner and 15 Carson were, there was never any countermanding of that 16 order. Do you agree with that? 17 A: That -- that's correct. That's 18 correct. 19 Q: I'm sorry if I didn't explain it 20 clearly, sir. 21 A: I understand now. 22 Q: And then if we could move to -- 23 towards the bottom of page 241 and again 241 is the 24 transcript number and then beginning at line 22, my 25 question is:
1711 "I'd like to look at, beginning of pag 2 32 of your notes -- 3 INSPECTOR SKINNER: Yes, sir. 4 -- on the evening of September 6th." 5 And towards the bottom of the page as 6 they're reading from Inspector Skinner's notes. 7 "The Sierra report still difficult -- 8 report still difficult to advance. 9 Determined to move." 10 Now first off, you also recorded the fact 11 that Sierra was having trouble advancing, right? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And that was because evidently some 14 of the occupiers had spotted them or -- or potentially 15 could spot them if they did advance, right? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: So then reading further from 18 Inspector Skinner's notes at line 6 of page 242 of the 19 transcript: 20 "Determined to move CMU into position 21 onto roadway about four hundred (400) 22 metres from scene." 23 And then the question then asked Inspector 24 Skinner: 25 "Did I read that correctly, sir?"
1721 The answer is: 2 "You did sir. 3 Q: And I believe your evidence was 4 that it was your estimate that it was 5 about 800 metres between the TOC 6 and the sandy parking lot; is that 7 correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 So what you recorded here is the 10 decision to move CMU roughly halfway 11 down the road? 12 A: Correct." 13 Now you told us, sir, about your log notes 14 where you were just asked a few moments ago more about 15 it, where Inspector Carson said the CMU should move 16 toward Ipperwash, right? 17 Do you recall that a few minutes ago? 18 A: Be -- before the lunch break or? 19 Q: No, no. Well, perhaps if you could 20 turn to your Tab 6. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, with 25 respect to the transcript for April the 20th, the
1731 transcript that Mr. Rosenthal is using is the transcript 2 that was first posted. I believe there was a second 3 transcript posted because a -- a one of the radio 4 transmissions had to be inserted. 5 And just so that everyone knows the -- on 6 the transcript that's now posted there will be a 7 difference in the page numbers. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The pages 9 are a different. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 11 So the page numbers will be different but 12 I hope that the words that I'm quoting will be the same. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The words will be the 14 same but if anyone's looking -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So, perhaps Madam 16 Reporter could give us a rough idea that -- as to how 17 much was inserted should people look a page or two (2) 18 beyond what's here or? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Three (3) pages. 23 So we have to remember you add seven (7) to the time of 24 the phone calls. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And add
1741 three (3). 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and you add 3 three (3) to the pages of these transcripts. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank 5 goodness we have a mathematician among us. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But it -- well, so 7 on the screen you have the correct page; the new pages or 8 the old pages? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have the old pages 10 because I saved one of these and that's why I have -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I couldn't find it 13 when the pages and that's when I realized -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I see. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- what happened. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Right, okay, thank 17 you. So we're all using the old pages, but if somebody 18 wants to check in the transcript that's finally posted, 19 you have to -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Add three 21 (3). 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- add three (3) 23 pages though, so. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But we can 25 all look at in on the board here --
1751 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and we'll 3 be on the same page? 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you. 5 Sorry for that confusion. Now, I've confused myself, I 6 have to remember where we're at. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Yes. I want to look, if I may, at -- 10 back at your Tab 6, at 22:24. This is Exhibit P-476, the 11 log notes that -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- you made on that evening. 14 A: Yes, yes. 15 Q: And at 22:24, it says: 16 "Carson advises either call CMU -- 17 A: It's C -- 18 Q: But you -- 19 A: -- and it should -- 20 Q: -- it certainly meant the CMU -- 21 A: CMU. 22 Q: "...to move up the road toward 23 Ipperwash." 24 Correct? 25 A: Correct.
1761 Q: And I would suggest to you it doesn't 2 say to Ipperwash, it says toward Ipperwash -- 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And that would seem to be consistent 5 with Inspector Kinner's -- Inspector Skinner's 6 recollection and notes that they were at first, at least, 7 told to march halfway down the road. 8 A: Yeah. I don't recall the halfway 9 down the road, I just -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: My impression was that they would go 12 toward -- toward -- 13 Q: Toward but not -- it didn't say to? 14 A: Didn't -- no, doesn't say to. 15 Q: And does my reading of Inspector 16 Skinner's evidence about going half way down the road, 17 jar your memory as to do you recall that at first they 18 were told to go part way down the road, and I'll read a 19 little further, Inspector Skinner's evidence. 20 he was told that the reason to do that, he 21 explained to us, that Sierra was having trouble getting 22 into position. 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: The idea was to try and find out if 25 there was something dangerous that needs immediate
1771 attention and Sierra was having difficulty getting in 2 position to determine that. 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Okay? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And so it was decided, Inspector 7 Skinner's told us, to send CMU out half way down the 8 road, and maybe those advance people who were creating 9 difficulties for Sierra getting into position would be 10 diverted by the CMU people and Sierra might be able to 11 then get an eye and tell what's happening. 12 Does that refresh your memory? 13 A: That was my understanding why -- 14 Q: That was your understanding -- 15 A: That's my understanding why they were 16 sent down the road. 17 Q: Thank you. And that might be why you 18 wrote "toward Ipperwash" rather than to Ipperwash", 19 right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Is that fair? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Then you very briefly looked at
1781 Exhibit P-438 which is the -- 2 A: Which one's that? 3 Q: Oh, the Chatham logger tape. A copy 4 was handed up to you towards the end of your evidence by 5 Mr. Worme. 6 A document that says on the top copy "P- 7 438". 8 A: I was handed that -- 9 Q: You were handed that a loosely -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 11 separate document. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'll give you 13 another one if you wish. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know what I did 15 with it. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm happy to -- oh, 17 thank you. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Do you have that in front of you, 23 sir? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: Now, if you look at the second entry
1791 in that document on the first page, attributed to 2 Lacroix. 3 "TOC to CMU." 4 And inspector Skinner told us it should 5 have been CMU to TOC, obviously, because Lacroix was 6 CMU -- 7 A: That -- 8 Q: -- speaking to TOC. 9 A: That makes sense. 10 Q: "But we're advancing to within, ah, 11 three hundred (300) [presumably 12 metres]." 13 And then I just wanted to flag that for 14 you and then if we could turn back again to the 15 transcript of Inspector Skinner's evidence at what was 16 page 248 of that transcript. 17 A: 248 did you say? 18 Q: Yes, sir. So the small number 248. 19 Do you have that sir? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. And then at about line 5: 25 "Q: He's the CMU informing TOC that
1801 he's advancing within 300 metres? 2 A: Yes. 3 So you had a notion of 400 metres, he 4 evidently had 300 metres, same ball 5 park, correct? 6 A: Pretty much, yeah. 7 Q: And 300 metres would still be 8 sufficient to stop any direct 9 engagement? Well -- 10 Q: One would think? 11 A: It's a substantial stand-off 12 anyway, sir [I'm sorry] stand-off of 13 distance anyway. 14 Q: Yeah, it's quite a distance in the 15 dark. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Down a country roadway? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: 300 metres is sufficient so you 20 wouldn't fault Lacroix for going 300 21 metres instead of four hundred (400)?" 22 And you says, 23 "No, sir, I wouldn't." 24 Right. So and that's again, that's 25 consistent with your memory that at the beginning at
1811 least or at one (1) point they were told to go partway 2 down the road and see what happens, right? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Okay. And then if you could turn 5 please to page 257 of the transcript -- transcript 6 excerpts. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Unfortunately the -- in this printing 11 that 257 is at the very bottom of a page and then -- do 12 you see where I'm at, sir? 13 A: yeah, I see it. 14 Q: The answer is: 15 "This probably could be described as a 16 punchout? 17 Yes, sir." 18 We're talking about a certain time, later 19 on after the events we've been speaking of a few moments 20 ago about stopping the 300 metres. 21 "Q: And you certainly didn't order 22 that punchout? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: As far as you were aware neither 25 did Inspector Carson?
1821 A: Correct. 2 And you were right near Inspector 3 Carson at the time? 4 A: We were standing close to each 5 other, yes." 6 And then I should like to then see if this 7 is consistent with your memory beginning at line 22 of 8 that page. 9 "Q: So throughout this entire episode 10 up to and including the punchout and 11 then including the shooting you were 12 not aware of any information that would 13 have justified the CMU making contact 14 with the people in the Park, right, or 15 the sandy parking lot? 16 A: I didn't receive information at 17 the TOC about that, sir, I -- 18 Q: That would have -- you didn't 19 receive any information that would have 20 suggested changing the order that we 21 agreed was in place at some -- eight 22 o'clock that evening or whatever, about 23 find out what's happening, if they're 24 having a campfire leave them alone, 25 right?
1831 A: That information, the information 2 like that did not come back to the TOC. 3 I don't know what made Wade Lacroix 4 [sorry] I don't know what Wade Lacroix 5 saw on the ground that made him do 6 that. 7 Q: You don't know why he did what he 8 did? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: But you don't have any information 11 that suggested -- you didn't have any 12 information that suggested changing 13 that original order? 14 A: You're -- you're right, sir. 15 And in particular -- and therefore -- 16 then therefore it's obvious but just to 17 clarify there was no order that 18 emanated from you or Inspector Carson 19 as far as you're aware for them to do 20 that advance? 21 A: Correct. 22 Make contact with them? 23 Correct." 24 And then I don't have the -- beginning of 25 the next page the particular word he says.
1841 "You're correct" at the end. Okay. 2 So is that consistent with your memory 3 then too, sir? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: Thank you. Now, if we could please 6 turn to your Tab 8 of your documents and you can -- it's 7 not necessary to display it necessarily but that's the 8 conversation where you're speaking to Inspector, as he 9 now is, Skinner about the weapons that were alleged to 10 have been in possession of some of the occupiers. 11 And I wanted to ask you just a couple of 12 brief things about that. First off, the first, imitation 13 AK's; what is an imitation AK or what did you understand 14 that to be? 15 A: I understand that to be a copy where 16 you would have a brand name on -- on a specific gun and 17 then you'd have a cheap knock-off made by somebody else. 18 Q: I see. 19 A: That's -- that's what it means to me 20 anyways so that's -- 21 Q: And it would -- if reasonably made, 22 perform similarly to the weapon? 23 A: Correct. Yeah, just -- it's just as 24 lethal to -- 25 Q: It would be --
1851 A: -- just as dangerous 2 Q: -- if made properly would be just as 3 lethal as the other one and function the same way? 4 A: Just as dangerous, yes. 5 Q: Now to your knowledge, no weapons 6 such as were discussed in this conversation were ever 7 found; is that correct? 8 A: I -- I'm sorry. Just repeat -- 9 Q: I'm sorry, sir. To your -- to your 10 knowledge no weapons such as were discussed in this 11 transcript, were ever found; is that correct? 12 A: My ear didn't pick up the middle -- 13 Q: I'm sorry. 14 A: -- the middle part of the question. 15 Q: I'm -- I'm very sympathetic, I -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Rosenthal, I think you'd be better off if you spoke into 18 that mic. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 21 -- it's clearer. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: All right. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: To your knowledge, sir, am I correct
1861 that no weapons such as were described in this telephone 2 conversation between you and Inspector Skinner, were ever 3 found; is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And no bullets or casings from any 6 such weapons were ever found as far as you're aware? 7 A: As far as I'm aware. It's also my 8 understanding that if -- if I may, it was a number of 9 days later before they were -- the scene was looked at 10 some ten (10) days plus before they could -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- look for these weapons or any 13 casings 14 Q: But there were no slugs from such a 15 weapon found in any of the CMU officers -- 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: -- equipment for example, right? 18 A: Correct. That's correct. 19 Q: And the CMU officers equipment is 20 your understanding, left the scene with them as they 21 walked back down the road, right? 22 A: Yes. I didn't hear the word 23 equipment their -- I didn't hear that part. 24 Q: Now, going to the recording now. As 25 -- as I understand it, one of your important jobs that
1871 evening was to make sure that that recording took place, 2 right? 3 A: That was one of my jobs, yes. 4 Q: And it was understood at that time 5 that it was important to record such calls. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: It was known in an event like this, 8 something serious could happen and hopefully it wasn't 9 anticipated that someone would be killed but it was known 10 that something serious could happen and it was important 11 to have a detailed record as to what occurred that 12 evening, right? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: Now, I didn't quite understand, am I 15 correct that every time the truck stalled, the recorder 16 automatically went off because of lack of power? 17 Is that what you were suggesting, sir? 18 A: Yes. The recorder was -- fed its 19 power through an inverter and the inverter would trip 20 off. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: There would be no power going to the 23 recorder. 24 Q: So you may not recall how many times 25 but several times at least in the course of the evening
1881 there was a stalling and therefore the recorder was off 2 and had to be turned on again, correct? 3 A: That's -- that's correct. 4 Q: And you told us that on top of the 5 record button there was a yellow light and on top of the 6 play button a green light, right? 7 A: That -- that was in my evidence at 8 the Deane trial. I haven't seen that machine since then. 9 But the colour of the lights, there was lights above -- 10 Q: Each one. 11 A: -- each one. And -- 12 Q: And -- and one yellow and one green 13 as you said in the Deane -- 14 A: -- as I said in the Deane trial, yes. 15 Q: Now so -- and these buttons were 16 supposed to be pressed simultaneous if one wanted to 17 record, right? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And if you did properly press them 20 simultaneously, then the green light would light on top 21 of the play button and the yellow light would light on 22 top of the record button; isn't that right? 23 A: That's my understanding today 24 thinking back. 25 Q: Yes. And that's what you told the
1891 Deane trial, right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: So are you telling us that you didn't 4 even look at those -- those lights to see if the yellow 5 light was on, sir? Is that your evidence? 6 A: I -- I'm -- that is when I set up the 7 machine, I -- I did what I believed was necessary to make 8 the machine function properly. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And then when I came back to it after 11 the event, what I saw was it wasn't operating the way it 12 should have been. 13 Q: But on several different occasions 14 you've pressed those two (2) buttons and you knew they 15 had to be pressed simultaneously, right? 16 A: That's the way the machine is to 17 operated, correct. 18 Q: And you knew that. You were trained 19 in use of this machine, right? 20 A: That -- that's correct. 21 Q: And you knew that if you pressed them 22 simultaneously, a yellow light would light and a green 23 light would light, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you knew that the purpose of the
1901 lights was exactly to tell you if it was functioning 2 properly, right? 3 A: When I set up the mach -- when I set 4 up the machine, I had many distractions at the time of 5 setting up the TOC, pain in my back, the fact I had to 6 leave the TOC area to go start the vehicle again, come 7 back. 8 I did, to the best of my ability at the 9 time, I thought the machine was working properly. I -- 10 Q: I understand that, sir. 11 A: -- went through and I set it up and I 12 must have missed or the strap was covering the lights. 13 What I saw the -- the machine indicated to me that it was 14 operating; the counter was counting, the tape was 15 advancing. A light came on. 16 I just didn't notice it of not being set 17 up correctly. 18 Q: Okay. Sir, you told us that if it 19 was done properly, there'd be a yellow light on top of 20 the record part of the button, a green light on top of 21 the play button and I asked you, you knew that at the 22 time, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You didn't learn that afterward, you 25 knew that before.
1911 A: Yeah, I -- 2 Q: Your training in using this machine 3 included -- 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: -- at least that much, did it not, 6 sir? 7 A: Yes, I... 8 Q: And didn't you know that the reason 9 for those lights is so that every time you press them, 10 you look and see if the lights are on and you know if 11 it's recording, right? 12 A: That's the reason the lights are 13 there. 14 Q: Yes. And if you just pressed the 15 record button and not the play button, it would lead to a 16 blank tape, right? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Or would it lead to a blank tape? 19 A: It would just play. 20 Q: It would just play. It would play if 21 there was something else on that tape, for example, it 22 wouldn't erase it. 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Correct? 25 A: Correct.
1921 Q: But then, sir, I'm having difficulty 2 understanding how, if you had to several times that 3 evening, restart this machine by pressing both buttons, 4 how you could have each of those times, failed to notice 5 that the yellow light was not on. 6 A: I wish I had the answer to that. 7 I've -- today and at the Deane trial, there's nothing I 8 wish I had more than to have that tape as evidence. 9 Q: Now, you told us that -- 10 A: I made a mistake. 11 Q: You told us that at approximately 12 4:12 in the morning there is a recording, right? there 13 is a recording -- 14 A: There's something on that tape. 15 Q: There's something -- 16 A: My notes indicate it -- 17 Q: -- what's on it -- what's on it at 18 4:12, sir? 19 A: My notes indicated that there was 20 something on that tape. I don't know today what was on 21 that tape. 22 Q: You don't know today what was on it? 23 A: No. I haven't seen that tape since 24 the Deane trial. 25 Q: But you listened to this tape several
1931 times to try and find out if anything was on it, right? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And at 4:12 there was something on 4 it, right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And you can't assist us as to what 7 that was? 8 A: No, I can't. 9 Q: And you say you gave that tape 10 ultimately to the SIU; is that correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: With your indulgence. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me here, Mr. 17 Commissioner. I was trying to ascertain if we have a 18 copy of that tape. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was the tape 20 available at the Deane trial? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I am not aware of 22 the answer to that question, sir. 23 THE WITNESS: To my recollection, it 24 wasn't submitted as evidence at the Deane trial. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But it may or may
1941 not have been relevant to the Deane trial but, of course, 2 we have a quite different mandate from the criminal trial 3 of Kenneth Deane and it might very well be relevant to 4 these proceedings. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Who did you give it to in the SIU, 8 sir? 9 A: I don't recall. I -- 10 Q: When did you give it? 11 A: -- could look through my notes to 12 find out if I have the officers that -- 13 Q: Would you please do that, sir. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've made 18 some efforts to see if we could locate that tape, but we 19 haven't been successful so far, I understand. 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah, that's correct, 21 Commissioner. And those efforts are ongoing. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1951 A: "On Tuesday the 15th of April, 1997, 2 at 17:45 Wayne Allen and Jim Kennedy 3 arrived. We go to the boardroom. I 4 turned over a copy of my notes, an 5 interview with Mark Dew." 6 And that's it. 7 Q: Did you turn over the tape at that 8 time, does it say, sir? 9 A: I turned over the tape at that time 10 but I -- I don't have it in my -- in my notes here that I 11 turned over the tape. 12 Q: You don't have it written in your 13 notes that you turned over the tape? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Are there some procedures for keeping 16 important things like tapes in the OPP? Are there some-- 17 A: There -- 18 Q: -- formal procedures? 19 A: The tape had nothing on it. It 20 didn't -- it didn't have -- 21 Q: It did have something on it at 4:12 22 you told us, sir. 23 A: It had nothing from the incident. 24 Q: Well, the incident was continuing at 25 4:12, sir, and officers were talking about the incident
1961 at 4:12 and there might well be important evidence at 2 4:12 in the morning. You recognize that do you not, sir? 3 Do you not recognize -- 4 A: Well -- 5 Q: -- that there might be 6 important evidence on that tape even if it was only at 7 4:12 a.m. on September 7, 1995? 8 A: Possibly, but I -- I -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: -- I don't -- I don't recall any 11 conversation that would have been recorded during that 12 period of time that -- that would have helped the 13 Commission. 14 Q: What were the procedures in place at 15 the time for someone who has a tape of an event like 16 this? What was -- what were you supposed to do with that 17 tape? 18 A: If -- if the tape had something on it 19 it would have went with our operational report. 20 Q: The tape did have something on it; 21 you told us it did, sir. 22 A: It would go with our operational 23 report and then that would be just part of the file 24 system in -- in the TRU office. 25 Q: And you told us you just put this
1971 tape in your locker, right? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And your locker, all TRU members 4 would have had access to that locker, right? 5 A: That's the same as the -- the drawer 6 that the operational reports would have -- 7 Q: Yes, just -- 8 A: -- the same -- same amount of 9 security. 10 Q: Just in the office -- 11 A: Just in the office. 12 Q: -- with no security whatsoever? 13 A: Well, the office is secure, it has an 14 alarm system -- 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: -- and a locked door. 17 Q: Now, you knew that there was a 18 criminal trial of Kenneth Deane from this shooting, 19 right? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: A very serious kind of criminal trial 22 of a homicide, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you knew that Kenneth Deane had 25 access to that room; right?
1981 A: Yes. 2 Q: So did you discuss with any superiors 3 what you should do with a piece of evidence that might 4 relate to Kenneth Deane's trial for criminal negligence 5 causing death other than put it in a place where in 6 particular Kenneth Deane might have access to it, sir? 7 A: I -- I didn't have that discussion 8 with any superior officer. 9 Q: And nobody questioned you about that 10 until this moment when I'm questioning you, sir? 11 A: No. No, sir. 12 Q: No superior officer has asked you 13 anything like that up until this moment? 14 A: Asked for the tape -- the moment they 15 would have asked for the tape I would have handed over 16 the tape. There -- there was -- there was nothing from 17 the event on -- on the tape that I could -- 18 Q: Well, you -- 19 A: -- ascertain. 20 Q: The fact that there was something at 21 4:12 on the tape you testified to at the Deane trial too, 22 right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So at least since 1997 it was known 25 in a very public forum that there was something on the
1991 tape at 4:12, right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And are you telling me that nobody 4 from the OPP ever asked you what was on the tape at 4:12? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And nobody else ever asked you until 7 I asked you just now? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: This tape I understand would hold 10 twenty-four (24) hours' worth of communications; is that 11 correct? 12 A: I can't recall the exact amount of 13 time it would -- the -- it would be a tape -- the longest 14 that we could possibly have, I'm guessing more, at twelve 15 (12) hours. 16 Q: Now, if we take the beginning of 17 crucial times with respect to what happened the evening 18 of September 6th, let's say eight o'clock that night, so 19 from eight o'clock that -- the night of September 6th, 20 1995, until 4:12 in the morning of September 7 would be a 21 little bit more than eight (8) hours, right? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: You would agree that without knowing 24 the exact capacity of the tape, it could have held all 25 communications that would have taken place over that
2001 eight (8) hour period for example, right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Right. It's not a little tape that 4 only holds thirty (30) minutes or sixty (60) minutes? 5 A: No. 6 Q: It would certainly have held at least 7 nine (9) ten (10) hours? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And when did you press some button on 10 that tape for the first time? At what time, sir, -- 11 A: I -- I don't recall what time. 12 Q: -- in the evening of September 6th? 13 A: I -- I don't recall that time. 14 Q: Would it have been approximately 8:00 15 p.m. on September 6th? Within an hour or two (2)? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Excuse me. Mr. 17 Commissioner, in all fairness to this Witness, according 18 to his notes he's not even at the TOC until 21:35. So 19 asking him if he would have -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About eight 21 o'clock. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- had the recording on 23 at 20:00 hours, I'm not sure really assists you or 24 assists the record, when it's clear from his notes and 25 his evidence to- date, he's not even at the TOC at that
2011 point in time. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 3 just picked eight o'clock as a number that was before the 4 event. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm just asking him 6 when, yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you 8 could have picked 9:45 and at least he's there. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: I want to know when. 12 A: What's that? 13 Q: Do you have -- do you have a 14 recording in your notebook as to when you we would have 15 first set up the tapes? When you would have first had 16 the tape operational in your view. 17 A: Some time shortly after arriving at 18 the Communication -- or at -- at the TOC. 19 Q: But did you write down in your 20 notebook tape -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: -- started at this time? 23 A: No, I did not. 24 Q: Can we tell from the document that 25 purports to be the -- your notes, your log notes, in any
2021 way? At Tab 6, Exhibit P-476. Presuming you didn't 2 start making these notes until after you had -- you 3 thought started the recording, right? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: So you certainly started it before 6 22:20, right? 7 A: Yes, and -- 8 Q: Or 22:19? 9 A: That's correct. And then after that 10 21:35 that we arrived and, sorry, back up -- after 21:35 11 and before this. Closer -- closer to 21:35 than 22:19. 12 Q: Now, sir, your main task or one of 13 your main tasks -- 14 A: One of them. 15 Q: -- on this evening was to make sure 16 that the communications on the TRU lines were recorded, 17 correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And when one is assigned a task like 20 that in the OPP are you not suppose to record exactly 21 when you -- in notes, I mean, exactly when you began such 22 a recording for example? 23 A: I didn't make these notes until the 24 next day. 25 Q: Yes. But when you were setting it up
2031 there wasn't such urgency, right? 2 A: Yes, there was an urgency when I set 3 it up. It was -- it was hectic. It was busy, people 4 were running around, we had multiple tasks to do. We had 5 a mast antennae to set up, keep the engine -- keep the 6 truck running and do all our other tasks assigned to us 7 and it was continuous. It's just you -- you go from one 8 task to the next. 9 Q: You have been taught, sir, that if 10 you're using a tape recorder of any kind for an important 11 purpose, you test it a little bit right there and then; 12 press both buttons, say a few words into it and press 13 rewind and listen and see if they came out. 14 Wouldn't that be a minimal thing that you 15 would be taught to do with respect to any important 16 recording you going to make, sir? 17 A: There -- there was a routine that we 18 would go through where we would -- you'd read in the -- 19 or you'd speak in the event that you are at and the time 20 and you'd make sure the time on the logger recorder is 21 correct. 22 Q: Yes. So you speak in something at 23 the beginning -- 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: -- and then play it back and make
2041 sure it's recorded, right? 2 A: I can't recall that night whether I - 3 - I -- I did that. With -- with all the distractions of 4 the -- of the vehicle sputtering out and being pulled 5 away from my task, I don't -- I can't recall today 6 whether I went back to check to see if it was -- 7 Q: You told us that Inspector Skinner 8 expressed -- expressed displeasure that you had not 9 recorded the event as -- as you should have, right? 10 A: Right. That's correct. 11 Q: And that was on the evening or early 12 morning of September 7th, right? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And did any other OPP officer discuss 15 this with you at any time from then to the present? 16 A: I don't recall specific discussions 17 with other officers about it. They were aware that it 18 didn't capture the events but one specific conversation 19 with one officer over the other, I don't have any 20 recollection of that. 21 Q: Did you tell any officer that there 22 was something on the tape at 4:12 in the morning? 23 A: I don't recall that. I don't recall 24 discussing that with anybody. 25 Q: Did you tell any officer that you
2051 were just putting it in your locker? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now, you told us that you went to 4 attend at a motel at which Mr. Peel was present; is that 5 correct, sir? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And this was the Pinedale Motel, was 8 it, sir? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: In Grand Bend? 11 A: You're talking about the next day? 12 Q: The next day, yes. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yes. And I was then going to ask 15 you, it was in the early afternoon of September 7, I 16 gather; is that correct? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And the whole TRU team was there, 19 right? 20 A: The London team. Yes, everyone from 21 the London team. The whole -- 22 Q: I see. I'm sorry, what -- did that 23 include all the people -- all the TRU members who had 24 participated in the events of September 6th? 25 A: From London TRU.
2061 Q: From London TRU, I see. And that was 2 only part of the -- 3 A: London TRU team. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: It's just to your -- the whole TRU 6 team, when you say the whole TRU team to me that's 7 thirty-six (36) members. 8 Q: I see. But did the members of the 9 TRU team that met at that motel on that afternoon 10 include, as far as you were aware, all the members of the 11 TRU team who participated in the Ipperwash operation? 12 A: From the evening before? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes, thank you. And it also -- you, 16 also when you were attended there you saw some members of 17 the CMU, too; is that correct? 18 A: That's -- that's my recollection. 19 Q: Yes. And do you recall Wade Lacroix 20 in particular? 21 A: I -- today, sitting here, I can't -- 22 I can't say whether he was -- he was there or he wasn't 23 there. It would seem natural to me that he was. 24 Q: I'm sorry, it was... 25 A: It seemed natural to me that he was
2071 in that group with the CMU. But I -- 2 Q: I see. 3 A: -- I don't have a distinct 4 recollection of speaking to him or -- or discussing 5 anything -- 6 Q: I -- 7 A: -- with him. 8 Q: Yeah. So, there were about ten (10) 9 members of TRU then there, was that -- 10 A: That -- 11 Q: -- correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And CMU, do you recall how many, 14 approximately? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Would have been more than the TRU 17 members, I presume; is that correct? 18 A: I can't recall today if -- if every 19 CMU member was there. I think that would be a lot. 20 Q: I see. 21 A: That's too many people for that room. 22 So it maybe only the ones that had some specific contact. 23 Q: I see, yeah. So but there would have 24 been some number of CMU -- 25 A: Some.
2081 Q: -- members there, perhaps ten (10) -- 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: -- twelve (12), fifteen (15), is that 4 a fair -- 5 A: Possible. 6 Q: -- estimate? 7 A: Possibly, yes. 8 Q: And I gather you were all in one (1) 9 large room at first, and Mr. Peel addressed all of you as 10 a group; is that correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And then he invited any individuals 13 who wished to speak to him privately to do so; is that 14 correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And you did not avail yourself of 17 that opportunity? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: But some of the other officers did; 20 you could see them going off with him? 21 A: Some did. I don't recall who -- 22 who -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- did. But some did. Norm Peel 25 only spent a brief time with the large group.
2091 Q: Yes. 2 A: And then went off somewhere else 3 and -- 4 Q: And invited individuals to come see 5 him that somewhere else, wherever it may have been? 6 A: Whoever, correct. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, you testified at the Deane trial 11 as a witness for Ken Deane, a witness for the defence, 12 right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Were you particularly sympathetic to 15 him because of the fact that you and he and interchanged 16 roles, would you say? Did that -- 17 A: Sympathetic? 18 Q: You told us -- you told us that had 19 it gone differently, Ken Deane might have been back in 20 the TOC and you might have been out on the road. 21 A: Yes. That's correct, yes. 22 Q: And so did that give you particular 23 sympathy for his situation would you say? 24 A: Well, you -- the thought does cross 25 your mind if -- if I didn't have the bad back and if we -
2101 - we worked in our normal roles, what the outcome would 2 have been. The thought crosses your mind. Sympathetic I 3 -- I don't know what -- what that's supposed to mean. 4 Q: Now you never retained Mr. Peel as 5 your lawyer? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: But he would have interviewed you as 8 a witness in preparation for your testifying at the Deane 9 trial, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now we've had some evidence that some 12 officers assisted Mr. Peel in preparing his investigation 13 that he used for his -- to plan the defence. 14 Did you assist in some ways like that, 15 sir? 16 A: I -- I don't understand what you mean 17 by "assist." 18 Q: Well, you were interviewed by Mr. 19 Peel in preparation for your testimony? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: Prior to your appearance at the trial 22 as a witness, did you render any other assistance to Mr. 23 Peel in order to help him prepare the defence? 24 A: I don't believe so. I -- I don't 25 know what you'd be referring to.
2111 Q: Well for example, we've heard of a 2 demonstration as to whether or not muzzle flashes can be 3 seen or -- 4 A: Oh, no. Okay. No. No, not that. 5 Q: -- and we have evidence of some 6 officers assisting Mr. Peel to understand the evidence 7 that the OPP had accumulated with respect to the entire 8 events, for example. 9 A: No. My only involvement would have 10 bee my notes and making him familiar with the logger 11 recorder and the set up. 12 Q: I see. Did you tell Mr. Peel that 13 there was something on the tape at 4:12? 14 A: I believe I did. 15 Q: You did? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And did Mr. Peel suggest that -- did 18 you provide the tape to Mr. Peel? 19 A: I went -- I had the tape when I went 20 to Norm Peel's to be interviewed by him. 21 Q: You brought the tape with you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you ask permission of anybody 24 before you brought the tape with you? 25 A: No. I just -- I took my notes, I
2121 took the tape, I took whatever I -- what I had. 2 Q: Well, sir, suppose a non OPP officer 3 had been charged with criminal negligence causing death 4 and there was a tape related to some events associated 5 with that and you were being interviewed by the defence 6 lawyer for that person, would you bring along that tape, 7 sir? 8 A: This -- this is -- this is after I 9 was interviewed by Mark Dew. Mark -- Mark Dew did the -- 10 took my interview for the OPP -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- he was not interested in taking 13 the tape at that time. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: So it was -- 16 Q: So you -- 17 A: -- it was a blank tape that I -- I 18 still had possession of at that time. 19 Q: So you -- you told Mark Dew that you 20 had the tape? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you understood that he was doing 23 a parallel investigation to that of the SIU? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you told him you had the tape and
2131 you told him that there was something on it at 4:12, 2 correct? 3 A: I -- I don't recall if -- if I told 4 him that. I told him it didn't capture the events of the 5 shooting. 6 Q: And did you tell him that the tape 7 was sitting in your locker? 8 A: I -- I don't recall what I told him 9 of that. What I recall is making it available to him if 10 he wanted it and he declined. 11 Q: He declined? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then when you went to see Mr. 14 Peel to be interviewed as a potential witness in the 15 Deane trial, you brought along the tape with you, did you 16 inform any other officer that you would bring along the 17 tape to that interview, sir? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: You don't recall? 20 A: No, I don't recall. 21 Q: Did you inform anyone, any other 22 officer afterward that you had done that? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: You kept the tape in your locker; is 25 that correct?
2141 A: Yes. 2 Q: For some -- for some couple of years? 3 A: Yeah. The year and a half or -- or 4 whatever it was. 5 Q: So you didn't throw it away? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: You didn't just put in with the other 8 black tapes to be used as a tape, right? 9 A: That's -- that's correct. 10 Q: You recognized it had some 11 importance, right? Potentially, right? 12 A: Potentially. 13 Q: As evidence, right? 14 A: It -- in -- in my mind it was more 15 like non-evidence. There was nothing on the tape just in 16 case somebody asked me somewhere down the line for the 17 tape, I -- I had the tape to refer to as, this is the 18 tape that I had that didn't capture the event. 19 Q: Well, sir, you keep on saying there 20 was nothing on the tape but then you told us there was 21 something on the tape at 4:12. 22 A: Yeah, I -- I can't recall that -- 23 what -- what that was, some transmission of something. I 24 -- I don't recall what it was. 25 Q: When you did stop the tape that
2151 evening, sir, you didn't realize at that point that 2 nothing had been recorded except for at 4:12, right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: I want -- I want you to take your 5 mind back to you go back to the tape recorder, the events 6 are done, at that point you thought you had a recording 7 of everything? 8 A: At the end of the -- at -- at five 9 o'clock in the morning -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- or sometime after the -- the main 12 event? 13 Q: Yes, at that point -- 14 A: What -- what point? 15 Q: -- you go back to the recording? 16 A: What point? 17 Q: The point you just described, after 18 the main event five o'clock the next morning or something 19 like that? 20 A: I went -- 21 Q: You went back and you looked at the 22 tape recorder and you turned it off at that point because 23 there was nothing more worth recording, right? 24 A: Took the tape out, turned the TOC 25 over to Constable Joe Girard who would have then -- then
2161 the TOC was his to deal with at that point. I -- I can't 2 speak to what he did but -- 3 Q: Okay. So you took -- you went -- you 4 stopped the tape recorder -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- and took the tape out, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: At that point you didn't know that 9 there was not much on the tape, right? 10 A: At -- at that point I was -- I was 11 afraid that it did not capture. I was aware that it may 12 not have captured the event. 13 Q: I see. How were you aware at that 14 point that it may not have captured the event? 15 A: I -- I did something to -- to try to 16 confirm that in my mind because I informed Sergeant 17 Skinner that it was my belief that it didn't capture the 18 event. 19 Q: Okay. But, sir, you told us you 20 pressed the play button and not the record button was the 21 problem, right? Ultimately that was the problem, right? 22 A: That -- that's my belief. 23 Q: And so if you pressed the Play button 24 the tape would advance at the same speed as it would if 25 it was recording, right?
2171 A: That's correct. 2 Q: So when you take out the tape it 3 would be much further on in the tape as you'd expect, 4 right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And looking at it you can't see if 7 there's any words on that tape or not, right? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And there'd be no way then unless -- 10 until you played it to determine whether or not you had 11 recorded anything, right? 12 A: Yes, that's -- that's correct. 13 Q: So how could it be that as you took 14 it out you thought you hadn't recorded anything? 15 A: I -- I have some recollection of -- 16 of when it was quiet in the evening or in -- like, or in 17 the wee hours in between one o'clock and five o'clock 18 when the TOC was turned over that I did some function to 19 try to capture something on that tape, to see if 20 something was captured on that tape. 21 Q: And you found nothing at that point? 22 A: That's -- that's correct. 23 Q: But when -- you talked to Skinner 24 very soon after you removed the tape, right? 25 A: Removed?
2181 Q: You -- you took the tape out of the 2 machine did you not? 3 A: No, I -- 4 Q: You didn't take it out of the 5 machine? 6 A: I can't recall -- I can't recall 7 sitting here today what -- what I did specifically with 8 that tape when I told Skinner that. 9 Q: Sir, how did you end up with the tape 10 in your possession ultimately? 11 A: I would have removed it from the 12 machine. 13 Q: And what time did you do that, sir? 14 When did you take it out of the machine? 15 A: That part, sitting here today I -- I 16 -- eleven (11) years later I can't recall that, it -- 17 whether it was the time that the TOC was ultimately 18 turned over to Girard or it was sometime prior to that 19 and -- and a second tape was put in there. I -- I don't 20 -- I don't know what happened. 21 Q: When did you leave the TOC on 22 September 7th, sir? 23 A: 5:00, 5:30 in the morning, 5:34. 24 Q: Okay. So we know that you removed 25 the tape from the machine sometime prior to 5:30 in the
2191 morning on September 7th; is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you say there was something that 4 was recorded at 4:12, right? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: So we know you removed the tape at 7 sometime after 4:12 a.m. and prior to 5:30 a.m. on 8 September 7, right? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: We can be sure of that much. And you 11 removed the tape then and when you removed the tape what 12 did you do with it? Did you play it or what? 13 A: I kept -- I kept it in my possession. 14 I went -- I -- I had one (1) more shift of -- in the 15 Command Post and then I -- I went off on -- on medical 16 leave, my back was flared up and I -- I couldn't function 17 anymore. 18 Q: Now, when this tape records something 19 does it indicate the time that is -- that the words that 20 are being spoken -- 21 A: There -- there's some -- 22 Q: -- is recorded? 23 A: -- time -- there' some type of time 24 stamp mechanism in there. 25 Q: Time stamp?
2201 A: Yes. 2 Q: That would be if you print out 3 something; is that correct? 4 A: I can't recall how the machine -- it 5 gives you an indication what time the recording -- the 6 recording happened. 7 Q: But that would be a printed document. 8 It wouldn't be on the tape itself, would it? 9 A: I -- I don't recall. I thought it 10 was some kind of -- 11 Q: Sir -- 12 A: -- mechanism in -- in the machine 13 that would indicate to you what the time was. 14 Q: Sir, have you ever listened to a tape 15 from this machine in your life? 16 A: Yes, I have. 17 Q: And when the tape plays back, it 18 doesn't say, the time now is 5:22 or something, does it? 19 It doesn't -- the words aren't there, right? 20 A: No. No, there isn't words. 21 Q: So the indication of the time has to 22 be from something other than just listening to the tape, 23 right? 24 A: That's correct. Whether it comes on 25 -- off a display on the machine or some sort, I don't
2211 know. 2 Q: Well, it might -- at the time that 3 it's being recorded there might be a time display on the 4 machine. It might say, 12:34 a.m., right? Right? 5 A: That makes sense. 6 Q: Does -- you're shaking your head. 7 Is -- 8 A: Yeah, that makes sense. Some -- 9 Q: But -- but -- 10 A: You would need the machine to see the 11 time. 12 Q: But on the other hand, there has to 13 be some way of telling afterward, too, what time each 14 recording was made, right? Right? 15 A: That's correct, that's correct. 16 Q: Maybe -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- you weren't watching the machine 19 at that moment and you don't know what it said, right, so 20 you have to be able to tell afterward when you listen to 21 an evening's recordings, what time each recording was 22 made, right? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And how is that done, sir? 25 A: I can't recall at this time. I
2221 haven't -- I haven't seen the machine for eight (8) 2 years and -- and -- 3 Q: I see. 4 A: -- I don't recall how that -- whether 5 it's -- it's a print -- a screen on the machine that 6 illuminates the time that -- I don't know. 7 Q: Okay. Now, sir, you took it out of 8 the machine some time before 5:30 a.m. on September 7, 9 1995, right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And when you took it out, what did 12 you do with it right away? 13 A: I kept it in my possession. I put it 14 in with the rest of my equipment. 15 Q: I see. When did you first listen to 16 it? 17 A: It was -- first listened to it? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: It would have been some weeks after - 20 - after I came back, after I came back. I was off for 21 two (2) weeks after that. 22 Q: So you told Inspector Skinner there's 23 nothing on it before you listened to it; is that your 24 evidence? 25 A: I was under the impression there was
2231 nothing on it. Sometime during the evening I did some 2 function to see if I could find anything on it and I 3 couldn't so I was under the belief there was nothing on 4 this tape. 5 I took it into my possession. When I came 6 back from being off for two (2) weeks with my back, some 7 time after that I sat -- I went to the truck and listened 8 through the tape, trying to find something on there and 9 there was nothing that I could find. 10 Q: That was several weeks later, you 11 say. 12 A: Several weeks later. 13 Q: And that's when you found the 14 recording at 4:12? 15 A: That -- that was reported in even 16 before I went -- that -- and then some time after that 17 prior to going to Norm Peel, as I sat down and recorded 18 everything that I -- that was on the tape that I could 19 hear, and at that time I made some notes in my notebook 20 on -- on what was at what point. 21 Q: I see. And where is that in your 22 notes? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're past 2 an hour, but you need to finish this. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: You appreciate, Mr 4 Commissioner, this is -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You need to 6 finish this. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I didn't expect 8 this, sir. And I would respectfully suggest it's 9 important evidence. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 THE WITNESS: That was on the 9th of 14 April, '97. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: 9 April, '97. Do we have those notes 18 in the Commission documents, sir? 19 A: I'm thinking now may -- maybe not. I 20 had searched and searched for these and it wasn't until 21 just recently that I came across them. 22 Q: Mr. Commissioner, with your 23 indulgence, may I look over his shoulder at those notes, 24 sir? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see
2251 where we are. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 3 must say I haven't had an opportunity to look -- to look 4 at these notes either and what I would suggest is that we 5 take a short break. I can have a look at them and if 6 there's arrangements that need to be made to have them 7 copied, we can make that so that they're available. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If they were 9 helpful or relevant. That's fair enough. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That's fine, thank 11 you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 13 take a short break and look at it. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 3:26 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 3:46 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 MR. DONALD WORME: I appreciate that 23 opportunity. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I note
2261 just for the record, firstly that the -- the Witness has 2 provided a copy of his notes from the 9th of April, 1997. 3 My Friend Mr. Rosenthal, as well as all of My Friends now 4 have copies of those. 5 Officer Zupancic's counsel, Ms. Jones, has 6 indicated however that the Witness is unable to speak to 7 the notations with respect to the recording of the tape 8 that he listened to. I think that was the questions that 9 he was just responding to before the break. 10 Accordingly, what I am going to be 11 suggesting is this -- I should say before I go onto that 12 is that in fact we have just been informed by our lead 13 investigator Mr. Moss that the tape has been located. It 14 is presently in the possession of SIU. 15 I have requested that that be forwarded 16 directly to Mr. Moss for the purposes of his examination 17 of it, that we permit this Witness to then have a -- a 18 listen to that tape that he could then be on recall on 19 the -- the narrow issue to come back an answer whatever 20 questions might arise out of that in his notes of the 21 same of the date. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 23 satisfactory? That's fine. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, that's very 25 sensible and in addition I was speaking with Mr. Falconer
2271 and also Mr. Worme about a request that your investigator 2 then have the tape investigated from the point of view of 3 trying to determine whether or not there'd been any 4 erasures or any tampering with the tape. I don't know 5 the -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 7 sure -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I don't know how 9 easy or difficult it is to make such investigations but 10 surely some such investigations can be made and I would 11 respectfully request it's obviously in order. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now -- 14 MR. DONALD WORME: And I would -- just to 15 interrupt My Friend briefly, Commissioner, I would think 16 that certainly Mr. Moss will undertake that 17 investigation. 18 It should, however, be helpful for him to 19 know whether or not the tape that was used on that 20 particular occasion was in fact a fresh tape or a tape 21 that had been recycled as I come to understand that these 22 tapes would be recycled from time to time. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I presume 24 Mr. Moss will be able to tell us that. Okay. That's 25 fine.
2281 MR. DONALD WORME: And perhaps the 2 Witness might be asked that either now or I will ask that 3 on re-examination. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: Well, I -- do you know, sir, you're 7 the person who put this tape into the machine did you, 8 sir? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: And can you tell us was -- was it a 11 fresh tape or was it a -- an older tape? 12 A: I -- I don't have the recollection 13 whether it was a fresh tape or an older tape and at the 14 time -- 15 Q: Presumably a fresh -- 16 A: -- at the time that I put it in the 17 machine. 18 Q: Presumably -- presumably a fresh tape 19 would come with some cellophane -- 20 A: That's -- that's -- 21 Q: -- around the box -- 22 A: That's -- that's right. 23 Q: -- and it would be apparent that it 24 was fresh? 25 A: Yes.
2291 Q: Whereas a tape that had been 2 previously used would not have said cellophane? 3 A: That's correct. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 5 Jones...? 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 7 just note further to that, I'm not sure that everyone's 8 had a chance to read this officer's notes, that were just 9 provided to everyone that there is a note at 15:00 hours 10 on April the 9th that says: 11 "Beginning of tape has TRU call from 10 12 February/'95." 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Now, sir, I did want to ask you about 16 something else with respect to the notes. I understand 17 and Mr. Worme indicates of course you'll be recalled with 18 respect to the content and the notes and comparing to the 19 content of the tape but I wanted to ask you about 20 something a little bit earlier than the contents. 21 Beginning at 14:00 on April 9, 1997, sir, 22 the time 14:00? 23 A: Yes? 24 Q: Page 7 of your notes? 25 A: Yes, I see it, yes.
2301 Q: It says: 2 "Back at [somewhere]." 3 A: Truck -- truck. 4 Q: Okay. 5 "Received page from Skinner. I may be 6 required for..." 7 And then what's the word after that, sir? 8 A: Court. 9 Q: "For court. Am to meet with Norm 10 Peel tonight at 19:00 hours in Sarnia." 11 Is that correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: Did I read it correctly, sir? 14 A: Yes, yes. 15 Q: So Inspector Skinner informed you 16 that you may be required for court and to meet with 17 defence lawyer Norm Peel. At the time you knew he was 18 Ken Deane's defence lawyer, right? 19 A: Yes, yes. 20 Q: And Inspector Skinner was your 21 superior officer at the time, sir? 22 A: Yes, he was. 23 Q: And so when he says you're required, 24 you're required, right? 25 A: Yes.
2311 Q: He wasn't say you might care to meet 2 with you him he said I, your superior officer, say you 3 might be required to go to court and to meet with Norm 4 Peel, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then -- then it says at 15:00: 7 "Listened to tape recorder." 8 And I'm not going to ask you what you 9 recorded as to what was on it or not but is this then, 10 sir, the first time that you carefully listened to the 11 entire tape? 12 A: This is the first time that I 13 recorded what I heard on the tape. I had, some time 14 after coming back to work, after my two (2) weeks off, 15 after the Ipperwash incident, I listened through the 16 tape. 17 I didn't record what I heard at that time 18 or did not hear at that time. And I decided that I 19 should sit down and go line by line through the tape. 20 Q: Now, just to understand one more -- 21 more about the tapes. It says -- going further on there, 22 it says, for example: 23 "Tape run number 2564 starts" 24 And has a time stamp -- it says "time 25 stamp". And then it says "tape run number 2596" and so
2321 on. 2 So the different tape run numbers means -- 3 does it mean that a tape runs for a certain time and then 4 stops running and then acquires a new tape run number 5 next time it runs? 6 A: I believe that's the point on the 7 tape that -- that -- that time is. Say on the counter, 8 zero (0) if tape run from zero (0) to 1480, so whatever 9 the measurement is, it starts at zero at the beginning of 10 the tape, runs to 1480. 11 Q: You mean this is a measurement -- 12 A: That's my -- 13 Q: -- of the -- in some units of the 14 length of the tape? 15 A: That's my understanding. 16 Q: When it says 2564, it's a certain 17 amount of tape that has been previously played, is that 18 it? 19 The number -- your understanding is if it 20 says tape run 2564 it means that it is -- 21 A: It's run that many minutes -- 22 Q: 20 -- 2,564 millimetres from the 23 beginning -- 24 A: Something -- 25 Q: -- or something like that?
2331 A: Something -- 2 Q: Is that what it means? 3 A: From the beginning, yes. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And then later on in your notes for 8 April 9th, 1997, it indicates that you, at 18:35, Holiday 9 Inn. Advised by someone to wait. 10 Who was that person who advised you to 11 wait? 12 A: I believe it says Susan. 13 Q: And this was to wait for Mr. Peel? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then you went back in your room 16 to review notes and wait. Is that correct? 17 A: It's my understanding he was 18 interviewing somebody else at this time and I don't get 19 to see him this evening. 20 Q: Mr. Commissioner, may I request that 21 a copy of this excerpt of his notes be made an exhibit as 22 well, but may I also request that, in fact, he provide 23 his notes for the subsequent days surrounding this, so we 24 can understand more about his interaction with Mr. Peel 25 with respect to this tape.
2341 And I would request at least his notes for 2 -- for -- sorry, these notes are for September 7th, '95 3 or August ... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: I'm sorry, these are for April 9th, 8 19 -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ninth -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I would request his 11 notes that be made available to Counsel, at least, and 12 maybe they would be relevant or not. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But for at least 15 all of April of '97, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 17 his Counsel should review the notes and see if there's 18 anything relevant or helpful. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I was 20 just going to say I'd be happy to -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- review the notes and 23 if there is anything relevant to Ipperwash, we will 24 disclose that. I am of the view that if there is 25 something in his notes for that month that is irrelevant,
2351 it's not anything to do with this Inquiry. 2 But if there is anything relevant to 3 Ipperwash, we'll interview -- review his notes for that 4 purpose. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Ms. Jones. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now, Ms. Jones and 8 I differ as to what's relevant sometimes, but -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- certainly in 11 this context -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please, this 13 isn't the time to argue -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, but -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I just want to 17 clarify, in this context, I presume Ms. Jones would agree 18 that anything describing his interaction with Normal Peel 19 about the defence of Ken Deane is certainly relevant. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, 21 anything in this Witness' notes that relate to Ipperwash 22 we -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: -- will review and we 25 will pass on.
2361 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's move 2 on. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 5 about done now, Mr. Rosenthal? 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 8 finished your examination now? 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, sir, I'm not. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1382 -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 -- 12 THE REGISTRAR: -- for these two (2) 13 pages. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1382: Richard Zupancic's 17 handwritten notebook entries, 18 April 09-10, 1997. 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have 21 other areas that you want to go into? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I do have another 23 area, but I want to ask a couple of other questions about 24 the tapes, Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought we
2371 were going to move on. All right, carry on. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now, perhaps I'll -- 3 I'll -- I presume I shall get a chance to examine this 4 Witness in re-examination when the tape is present. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 6 I thought. That's why I thought you were going to move 7 on now. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, okay, sorry. 9 I -- I'll save that -- I'll save that for then, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: And just ask about one last area 14 here, sir. You told us that you bought a t-shirt? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And did you buy a mug as well? 17 A: No, I did not. 18 Q: And who sold you the t-shirt? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: And where -- where did you buy it? 21 Was it in the Forest Detachment? 22 A: I -- I was off. Somebody brought me 23 back a t-shirt. I was off -- I was off sick for two (2) 24 weeks. 25 Q: I see.
2381 A: And -- 2 Q: So someone brought it to you not in 3 any police headquarters? 4 A: Yes, sir. I -- I don't recall where 5 I got it from. 6 Q: And you don't recall who? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: What did they charge for it? 9 A: I -- I don't recall. 10 Q: And were you interviewed about your 11 possession of that t-shirt at any point, sir? 12 A: I don't -- I don't recall being 13 interviewed about it. 14 Q: You told us you discarded it. 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: What did you do with it? 17 A: Threw it out in the trash. 18 Q: In the trash. Did Ken Deane have 19 such a t-shirt, sir? 20 A: I -- I do not know. 21 Q: You observed some of your fellow 22 officers wearing that t-shirt from time to time? 23 A: No. No, I did not. 24 Q: You never saw any officer wearing 25 that, sir?
2391 A: No. 2 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Thank 3 you, Officer. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Mr. Rosenthal. Mr. Neil? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Good afternoon, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 afternoon. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant. 16 A: Good afternoon. 17 Q: My name is Cam Neil. I'm one of the 18 lawyers for the Residents of Aazhoodena also known as 19 Stoney Pointers. 20 I think I'll start off with the tape 21 first. Now I understand that tape was turned into the 22 SIU the night before you testified at the trial of Ken 23 Deane. That's your evidence, correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Why is that?
2401 A: That's the first time they asked for 2 it. 3 Q: And no one else has asked for it 4 before that time? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And following up on a line of 7 questioning from My Friend, Mr. Rosenthal, he was asking 8 you about the standard practice for tapes and where they 9 would be put, whether there was a protocol. 10 I don't think I actually took note of what 11 your answer was to that line of questioning. Was there a 12 standard practice after an occurrence with the tape, 13 where that tape should go? 14 A: It's -- it's my understanding that if 15 -- if there was something of significance on the tape, it 16 -- it would go with the operation report. 17 Q: What does that -- 18 A: A report of -- of what transpired. 19 Who was at that call. 20 Q: So where would it physically go? 21 A: In -- in a file cabinet in -- at the 22 TRU team office. 23 Q: Like an archive? 24 A: Yeah, just a file drawer. 25 Q: And who normally makes that decision
2411 as to whether something is relevant on a tape or not? 2 A: I don't know who would have decided 3 that. We were -- each officer was assigned reports to -- 4 to be the officer responsible for making that operations 5 report. 6 And then it would be reviewed by the 7 Sergeant of the team. 8 Q: So did you make -- 9 A: The second in command. 10 Q: Did you make an operations report for 11 this particular tape? 12 A: I don't believe I did, no. 13 Q: Did anybody? 14 A: Somebody would have. I -- I don't 15 know who did the office report for -- had for Ipperwash. 16 Q: So who it that you discussed the 17 relevance of this tape with? 18 A: This -- this tape or the lack of -- 19 Q: There was a physical tape. 20 A: There was a physical tape. 21 Q: There was a physical tape, who did 22 you discuss whether or not this tape had relevant items 23 on it or not? 24 A: I -- I don't recall having that 25 discussion with -- with anyone.
2421 Q: So you didn't make that ultimate 2 decision then? Did -- did you make the ultimate decision 3 whether it was relevant or not? 4 A: There -- there -- yes, I did. There 5 was nothing on the tape and I just maintained the tape. 6 I didn't put it with the office report because it would 7 have been putting a tape with nothing on it with -- with 8 the operation report. 9 Q: And no one else listened to the tape 10 besides yourself, correct? 11 A: Not -- not to my knowledge. 12 Q: Now, this -- this role of the person 13 who -- who mans this recording device in the TOC, had you 14 ever had that role in an operation before? 15 A: In -- in the prior week. 16 Q: In the prior week? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: What incident was that? 19 A: That was the St. Thomas incident. 20 Q: And that was your first incident? 21 A: First incident that I can recall. 22 Q: In that particular role? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And in that incident there was a tape 25 that did have --
2431 A: There was a lot of recorded tape but 2 we -- TRU team wasn't -- didn't deploy and again there 3 was nothing on that tape and that tape would not have 4 been kept. 5 Q: Now, there was nothing on that tape 6 because of...? 7 A: The -- the subject surrendered prior 8 to TRU deploying. 9 Q: So had the tape been activated for 10 that incident? 11 A: I can't recall that now at -- at this 12 date. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: I -- I don't know to which state we - 15 - we got in setting -- in setting up the -- the TOC prior 16 to the individual surrendering to police. 17 Q: Okay. So you're unsure as to whether 18 or not that taping equipment had actually been set up or 19 not? 20 A: That -- that's right. 21 Q: Okay. But it may have been? 22 A: Possibly. 23 Q: Okay. And it's possible that there 24 was recording or that's totally not possible or you can't 25 recall?
2441 A: I can't -- I can't recall at what 2 stage -- was the equipment set up at that point? Did we 3 get to that point or did the individual -- or in the 4 process of setting up did the individual surrender and we 5 were shut down prior to getting to that point. 6 Q: Okay. So there -- there's no chance 7 then that you had an opportunity at that incident to 8 press the Play and the Record buttons at the same time? 9 A: I can't recall. 10 Q: So it's possible that you may have 11 had that opportunity then? 12 A: It's possible. 13 Q: Okay. But we don't know? 14 A: I -- I don't know. I don't know. 15 Q: When did you first become eligible to 16 play that role as the equipment operator, the recording 17 equipment operator? 18 A: Eligible would have -- we -- we 19 received training on the new radio system in October the 20 year before so anytime after October of '94. 21 Q: And was there anyone else in that TRU 22 team of September of '95 who was eligible for that role 23 besides yourself and Ken Deane? 24 A: It's my understanding that any -- any 25 TRU member of the opportunity presented itself may have
2451 switched in roles. 2 Q: That was a role that anyone could 3 have at any time if you were a member of the TRU team? 4 A: Yeah. Ideally it would have been the 5 -- the sergeant's position but the fact that we were -- 6 we had ten (10) members, we were down two (2) members, 7 and I couldn't go to ground and we -- we traded spots and 8 -- and in times past other constables have filled that 9 role. 10 There may not have been logger recorder 11 equipment on -- on the truck at that time because it had 12 only been there since October the year before but to fill 13 the role that wasn't uncommon to -- to trade positions. 14 Q: Were you uncomfortable with the role 15 though? 16 A: I was uncomfortable that evening, I 17 wasn't uncomfortable with the role. 18 Q: Were you relieved you were able to 19 play that role as opposed to being on the ground? 20 A: Relieved isn't -- isn't the word to 21 use. I -- I wanted to be able to perform some function 22 to -- to help the team out because the numbers were low 23 as it -- as it was. It was to the point where I -- I 24 couldn't do my -- my job on the ground. 25 Q: And you had no concerns going into
2461 that role as to your fitness for that role, correct? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Were you taking medication for your 4 back problems at the time? 5 A: There -- there was anti-inflammatory 6 medication that I was taking. 7 Q: Any painkillers? 8 A: No. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Do you recall after having seen the 13 chiropractor whether he said, Listen you shouldn't be 14 doing any kind of work tonight? 15 A: I don't recall him saying -- he 16 didn't say that. 17 Q: Do you think that came up in 18 conversation? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You just don't recall it? 21 A: No, not -- not that sentence as you 22 formed it. 23 Q: Okay. I want to jump back in time a 24 bit to what we've come to call the Daryl George Incident. 25 This is February of 1995.
2471 Just very quickly turning to your Tab -- 2 Tab 4, your notes, page 75. 3 The bottom of the page, are you with me? 4 A: Not yet. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: It might be easier just to refer to 9 the Tab itself. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: It's okay, I'm at the bottom of page 13 75. 14 Q: Yes. Now, in your evidence in-chief 15 with Mr. Worme, you were reading your notes and I heard 16 you say the name Mike Bressette. 17 Looking at your note again, are you 18 certain that that says Mike or is it possible it says 19 Miles? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: It says Beau, I, Mc -- Mc somebody 24 and Chief, bracket, staff sergeant... 25 A: It appears -- it looks like Miles to
2481 me now. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I misread. 4 Q: Thanks. What was your role during 5 that incident in February of 1995? 6 A: I was part of the arrest team. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: On that call. 9 Q: And Kent Skinner was your leader at 10 that time? 11 A: Yes, he was. 12 Q: Did you have any exposure to Mark 13 Wright or Dale Linton during that occurrence? 14 A: I don't recall any direct exposure to 15 them. 16 Q: Do you recall any discussions over 17 the actions taken by Miles Bressette in that occurrence? 18 A: As far as what? 19 Q: Do you recall any involvement of 20 Miles Bressette other than the note that you have here? 21 A: There was a First Nations officer 22 that drove up to the scene. Now, I don't know, sitting 23 here today whether that was Miles or not. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Hmm.
2491 Q: That's right. 2 A: If that's what you're referring to. 3 Q: My apologies, I realize it wasn't 4 done on the -- the tape topic. If I understand your 5 evidence correctly, you were at some point on the evening 6 of September the 6th, you were sent down along with the 7 medic at the instruction of Kent Skinner -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Correct? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: To assist, presumably because there - 12 - it was anticipated that there was going to be injuries 13 that you would have to attend to, correct? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: You get down a certain ways and 16 you're called back? 17 A: I get down a certain ways I get -- I 18 get sent back. I drive down the road. It -- it's dark. 19 I can't -- I don't want to use the lights on the vehicle 20 because I don't want to back light the officers. 21 I'm under the impression that there's been 22 exchange of gunfire going back and forth. I don't know 23 if they're taking cover in the -- in the darkness from 24 that. 25 I call out on the radio. On two (2)
2501 occasions someone has to guide me in. I can't -- I don't 2 want to run anybody over. I can't see. 3 The second time I call out that someone 4 has to guide me in. Ken Deane comes on the air and says, 5 you can turn around and go back, you can 10-19. 6 And I can have him repeat that and he says 7 everybody's up. They're heading back to the TOC. You 8 can turn around and go back. 9 Q: Okay. And we thank you for that and 10 we've heard from you that when you get back to the TOC 11 you are told by Kent Skinner, go check the tape. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And you go and check the tape. 14 A: I take a look. 15 Q: Did he tell you to do that 16 immediately upon your return, when you first came back 17 and you first saw him? 18 A: It wouldn't be immediate. It -- my 19 recollection is within the first fifteen (15) minutes. 20 Q: Within the first fifteen (15) 21 minutes. When you arrived back, you were there for 22 fifteen (15) minutes and then he told you to go check the 23 tape? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: When you first arrived back, who was
2511 at the TOC? 2 A: Skinner and Carson. 3 Q: Any other members of TRU or -- 4 A: That's it. 5 Q: -- ERT? 6 A: No. 7 Q: At what point did they eventually 8 come back? 9 A: As -- as we parked the Suburban, and 10 we were getting out and then putting our kit back in the 11 back of Suburban, I was surprised to see how quickly they 12 did return and they were just moments behind -- behind us 13 by the time we got the Suburban backed up and back into 14 position. 15 Within a minute they were starting to 16 drift back in. 17 Q: Okay. So they'd now come back. is 18 that when you spoke to Skinner about the tape? Is that 19 when he told you to go check the tape? 20 A: Fifteen (15) minutes from then. 21 Q: Fifteen (15) minutes from the teams 22 arriving back or from your first arrival -- 23 A: From my arrival which was within 24 close time to them arriving back. I -- we got back 25 first. But they were just a minute or so behind us.
2521 Q: Now, I want to touch for a moment 2 about the fact that you are born -- you were born and 3 raised in Forest, that's correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Do you still live in Forest? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: How long did you live in Forest 8 before you moved away then? 9 A: Nine (9) years. 10 Q: Nine -- you were there for nine (9) 11 years. So as a nine (9) year old boy you left Forest? 12 A: I was a nineteen (19) year old boy 13 when I left Forest. 14 Q: Nineteen (19) years old, you left 15 Forest. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you still have family in the 18 area? 19 A: Not in the Town of Forest. 20 Q: Not in the Town of Forest. What 21 about the general Lambton County area? 22 A: Lambton County, yes. 23 Q: What sort of towns in Lambton County? 24 A: You want me to name the towns that my 25 relatives live in?
2531 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 2 concerned about a couple of things here. One is 3 initially it doesn't appear that the questions have any 4 relevance and I understand that there may be some kind of 5 argument that they are. I don't know. 6 My other concern, Mr. Commissioner, is 7 really for privacy. This Officer is here to tell you 8 about what he knows about Ipperwash. And to extend the 9 scope of questioning here so that there's details given 10 about an Officer's family and the location of where they 11 live is really I think an invasion on their privacy. 12 And I think it's really unfortunate if 13 questions like that are asked and answered. I would 14 really ask that they not be. 15 MR. CAMERON NEIL: I'm -- I'm not looking 16 for addresses. I'm not looking for more than perhaps 17 towns. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 19 looking for towns. 20 MR. CAMERON NEIL: I can explain -- I can 21 explain. I -- I think this Officer has a unique 22 perspective that he can bring to this Inquiry in that not 23 only was he an OPP officer involved at Ipperwash but he 24 may have some family connection to the local area. 25 So we have him as a resident or his family
2541 as residents of the area on top of the fact that he's an 2 OPP Officer. He might be able to shed -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How does 4 that -- 5 MR. CAMERON NEIL: -- some light. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How does 7 that help us? 8 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Well, we've -- we've 9 been talking about the -- the feelings of the local 10 community and what issues they had with the occupation. 11 These -- I mean, these have been areas that we've been 12 touching upon. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a bit 14 of a stretch. Mr. Worme, do you have some comment? 15 MR. DONALD WORME: Again, I'm -- I'm 16 simply concerned for the same reason that My Friend, Ms. 17 Jones, indicates. This Witness can -- can tell us about 18 what he's -- what he's -- what he's done and he's 19 experienced. And I think that's as far as we really go 20 in the circumstances. 21 I mean, if -- if what My Friend Mr. Neil 22 is attempting to go is to undermine the credibility of 23 this Witness by suggesting that there's some kind of 24 bias, I don't see that how he's -- how that's going to be 25 managed under this line of questioning.
2551 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 2 how this is going to be helpful. I just don't see how 3 this is going to be helpful, Mr. Neil. 4 MR. CAMERON NEIL: That's fine. I mean 5 the fact that he moved away at nineteen (19) I wasn't 6 expecting that, so I can withdraw that question. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 10 Q: But in your evidence, sir, you did 11 touch upon the fact that you were aware that there was 12 friction as you put it between the Kettle Point Band and 13 the people who called themselves Stoney Pointers. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I was wondering first of all when 16 did you first become aware of that friction as you put 17 it? 18 A: Some time when I guess when -- when I 19 was a young man and still living in Forest. I -- I came 20 to the realization that there were two (2) distinct 21 peoples. 22 Your first impression was Kettle Point was 23 Kettle Point, and they were all the same group of people. 24 And -- and then as time goes on you -- you come to 25 realization that the Army Base was their territory at one
2561 time and it was taken away and that's a different group 2 from the Kettle Point. 3 And then they were made to -- to live 4 together. 5 Q: So you did have a general sense of -- 6 A: I had a general sense that there was 7 -- there's two (2) distinct peoples or -- or groups. 8 Q: And you had even managed to acquire 9 that kind of knowledge by the time you were nineteen (19) 10 years of age? 11 A: Yeah, prior -- prior to moving away, 12 yes. 13 Q: Throughout the course of this 14 occurrence because you had that kind of unique knowledge 15 that I would suggest others in your TRU team didn't, did 16 they ever look to you for some kind of backgrounder type 17 of knowledge while you were staged at Pinery for example? 18 A: I -- I would have passed on in 19 general conversation what -- what I knew of the area. I 20 don't have any distinct recollection -- I -- I did not 21 brief the team on -- on those points, but I had different 22 conversations with friends just letting them know the 23 history that -- that I knew. I recall some general 24 conversation like that. 25 Q: Yeah. I'm not suggesting that it was
2571 your role or your duty -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- to do so I'm just -- I'm curious 4 as to if you have any recollection what the kinds of 5 things you would have said to them. Would it have been 6 along the same lines of what you just described to us 7 now? 8 A: Yes, something that parallels that. 9 Q: I realize I'm going a bit into 10 overtime I think, Commissioner. I apologize but one (1) 11 -- one (1) final area of -- of questioning. 12 We've heard your evidence and we -- and we 13 have the -- the transcript of the tape and we've seen in 14 -- in your notes when you were advised of the imitation 15 AK-47s, the mini-Rugers, and the Molotov cocktails, 16 correct? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Do you have any independent 19 recollection of that or are you just -- 20 A: That conversation? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: Okay. It had an impact on you, 24 correct? 25 A: Impact in which respect?
2581 Q: Well, you tell me. 2 A: Well, it -- it was a piece of 3 intelligence, it was -- it was conveyed that they 4 received information that these -- these weapons were 5 available. It was just more of the same that -- that 6 we've been hearing. 7 When -- when TRU's involved the reason 8 we're involved there's -- it's because there's -- because 9 there's weapons so we would expect that there would be 10 some information or -- or fear that weapons were 11 involved, so -- 12 Q: Right. And -- 13 A: -- it was just more of the same 14 information that we were being provided with. 15 Q: Right. And there -- there was no 16 passing onto you as to the source of that information? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Or the reliability of that 19 information? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: In fact there was no qualifier on the 22 information was there, it was just here it is? 23 A: There's been some information 24 received. 25 Q: Now, and you used the word,
2591 "intelligence" and nobody qualified that word, 2 "intelligence" when they spoke to you about these 3 possible weapons? 4 A: That's right. That's right. 5 Q: They didn't say intelligence and then 6 for example say, Well, intelligence isn't the right word. 7 They didn't do that, right? 8 A: No. 9 Q: They didn't say anything to you about 10 the fact that there had been no confirmation of these 11 weapons, correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And that information was given to you 14 to disseminate amongst the TRU members, correct? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And you did that? 17 A: I did that. 18 Q: Thank you, Commissioner, those are 19 all my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Neil. Mr. George? 22 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Mr. Commissioner, 23 the one (1) area of interest to me has already been 24 covered. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr.
2601 Falconer...? 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 5 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Zupancic. 6 My name is Julian Falconer, I act on behalf of Aboriginal 7 Legal Services of Toronto. 8 A: Good afternoon. 9 Q: I want to first ask you a follow-up 10 to Mr. Neil's questions about intelligence. 11 That word I take it can be used to 12 describe almost any information that comes your way in 13 preparation for an incident is that right? 14 A: Correct. Correct. 15 Q: And you've already answered that 16 there was no qualifiers on the information you received 17 but I just want to understand something about the 18 description of the incident that involved the baseball 19 bats and the vehicle, all right? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: You've already assisted Mr. Worme as 22 to its significance but I just want to clarify the 23 different directions that information came to you. 24 First of all, it came -- that information 25 actually came to your originally, did it not, from
2611 Officer Korosec, is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. That's correct. 3 Q: Could you turn to Tab 7 please of the 4 Commission Counsel binder? 5 And at page 3 -- now, this call happens 6 September 26th -- I'm sorry, September 6th, 1995, at 7 20:29 hours and because it's a telephone call, just so 8 you know, the -- the lapse in time could vary anything 9 from zero to seven (7) minutes so it could be 20:29 or it 10 could be as late as 20:36. 11 I'm simply telling you that because that's 12 what we've learned over time, all right? 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: So in and around 20:29 to 20:36, a 15 call begins between you and Sergeant Cousineau and 16 Sergeant Korosec, correct? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: A brief indulgence. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And for the record, by the way, this 23 is exhibit P-1322. In terms of your discussions with 24 Officer Korosec about this, it's at page 3. 25 The reference is the fourth line, do you
2621 see that? Page 3 of the transcript. It says: 2 "SK: Okay."? 3 A: Yes, I see that. 4 Q: All right. He states: 5 "Okay. What we got is, we got a big 6 gathering down at the end of Army Camp 7 Road and East Ipperwash. Baseball 8 bats. They trashed a private vehicle 9 that went by with the bats. We got -- 10 how many we got down there, Natives. 11 It's changing all the time." 12 And then there's a reference to: 13 "Turn around, fellows, uh, no, okay 14 what's that? I'm just telling my guys. 15 SK: Yeah, they're armed with baseball 16 bats and whatnot at this intersection. 17 We got people opposed to them are 18 coming down from Kettle Point." 19 Now, I take it, first of all, these were 20 words uttered to you; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And you would have taken 23 from this that an officer on the ground, being Officer 24 Korosec, was relaying to you information details about 25 (a) the incident involving the baseball bats and the
2631 trashing of the vehicle of a private citizen going by, 2 but (b) the movements of other First Nations persons. 3 Is that correct? 4 A: Except for the fact that I don't take 5 it that he's on the ground. 6 Q: All right. Help me on that, what do 7 you take -- 8 A: He's at the command post. 9 Q: Look -- look -- all right he's -- I 10 apologise. An officer who's at command post is relaying 11 this information. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And I take it you would, in the 14 normal course, infer and assume that that officer at 15 command post is getting his information from officers on 16 the ground? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Okay. And the fact that he's at 19 command post tells you he's a person in authority? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And he's -- on it's face 22 you have no reason to doubt the reliability of the 23 information he's giving you 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: He goes on to say:
2641 "Yeah, they're armed with baseball bats 2 and whatnot at this intersection. We 3 got people opposed to them are coming 4 down from Kettle Point." 5 You say: 6 "Okay. 7 They're opposed to these guys 8 occupying the Provincial Park. 9 Okay. 10 We got a turf battle. Not a turf 11 battle, but a -- " 12 And you say: 13 "Internal battle." 14 And he says: 15 "Yeah". 16 You say: 17 "Yeah." 18 And he says: 19 "It's forming down there. Okay, we got 20 -- we got the TRU or the ERT teams that 21 were the day shift are kitting up in 22 their crowd management gear and Wade 23 Lacroix is coming up as well to handle 24 them." 25 And you say,
2651 "Okay". 2 Can we infer from this exchange between 3 you and Officer Korosec in command post that certainly by 4 no later than 8:36, although add whatever seconds it 5 would take for pages 1 and 2 to happen, okay. I just 6 want to be clear. 7 But by 8:36 plus pages 1 and 2, you (a) 8 have been briefed in detail about the trashing of a 9 private citizen's vehicles with baseball bats outside of 10 the Park, right? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And (b) that as far as the officer in 13 command post believes there's about to be further 14 confrontations and an escalated level of violence? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And that's what you think you're 17 walking into? 18 A: It's one of the pieces of 19 intelligence that we received. 20 Q: And you've already testified you had 21 no reason to doubt the reliability of what Korosec at 22 command post was telling you, correct? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And then in addition to that, you 25 also were advised by Officer Korosec that Sergeant
2661 Lacroix is coming up to handle them, isn't that right? 2 A: That's what it says here. 3 Q: you knew, because it says it, that 4 the day were kitting up in their crowd management gear, 5 yes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, Sergeant Lacroix wasn't a 8 stranger to TRU was he? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: You knew who he was? 11 A: I know him. 12 Q: Well, you've been in TRU since 1988? 13 A: He was my team leader at one time. 14 Q: That's right. So when -- when they 15 say, and did you call him Waddie at times? 16 A: At times. 17 Q: And so you knew Waddie was coming in 18 to handle these people, right? 19 A: These -- these people are handled the 20 crowd management team. That's what that indicates to me 21 that -- that he's a leader of a crowd management unit. 22 Q: So you felt that when it says: 23 "And Wade Lacroix is coming up as well 24 to handle them." 25 He was going to handle the crowd
2671 management people? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And what was your impression of the 6 intent with respect to kitting up crowd management and 7 having Wade Lacroix lead them? 8 What was -- what -- what impression did 9 you get from that, if any? 10 A: This -- this conver -- reading 11 through this transcript indicates to me that if -- if 12 there's a need to keep them separated, Crowd Management 13 could fill that role. 14 Q: In terms of the process then, first 15 as of, in between 8:29 and 8:36 p.m. on the night of 16 September 6th, you know about the trashing of a private 17 citizen's vehicle with baseball bats and you also know 18 about a upcoming internal struggle, right? 19 And then we turn to your notes. And if 20 you'll look please at your notes in question, you'll find 21 those at Tab 5. Specifically, if you turn to the page, 22 this is P-1380, if you turn to the page, that's page 55, 23 the third page in. 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes.
2681 Q: Now, in essence under your reference 2 to 21:14 at the top of the page, do you see the 3 reference to the weapons? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: This would be the -- the information 6 about weaponry that is reflected as well in another 7 conversation we'll go to in a second, but it's a 8 conversation that would have happened as part of Tab 8 9 excerpt at P-347, the 21:02 conversation. 10 A: All right. Just -- 11 Q: Flip to Tab 8 to satisfy yourself. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And then -- and so we see that 16 so you have this reference to weaponry and then the -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- 21:35 seems to be the briefing 19 from Skinner that again repeats the information about 20 baseball bats, right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Now first of all, I want to ask you, 23 are you giving any new or additional information than 24 what you learned between 8:29 and 8:36 p.m.; as reflected 25 in these notes I mean or in your memory?
2691 A: From Skinner? 2 Q: That's right. This briefing that's 3 reflected in the bottom of the page. 4 A: This is what I recall from the 5 briefing. 6 Q: Okay, so -- 7 A: That Skinner gave. 8 Q: -- it's the same thing absent the 9 internal struggle? Remember there was a reference to an 10 internal struggle? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: It's the same thing absent the 13 internal struggle? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: The bat incident is simply repeated 16 to you, right? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. And similarly you -- you 19 obviously the 21:14 is meant to reflect the Tab 8 20 conversation between you and Skinner, right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Okay. Am I now right in -- in doing 23 my review that the sum total of the information you had 24 right up until deploying TRU at the scene, at TOC, the 25 sum total of the information you had was intel on a list
2701 of weapons, the bat incident and the internal struggle? 2 That was the information you knew of at 3 the time? 4 A: That I had personally, yes. 5 Q: Yes. And you were a member of TRU? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you would have and were expected 8 to have as much information as members of Sierra 1, 9 Sierra 2 and Alpha, right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And so you -- and that's what a team 12 does. A team makes sure each member of the team knows 13 the same thing? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: A team can't work like a team if part 16 of the team knows one thing and the other part of the 17 team knows something different, correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: All right. So it's safe to say that 20 it becomes absolutely essential in your mind, when 21 assessing the appropriateness of TRU's response in this 22 case, to know the accuracy of the intelligence you were 23 gave -- given, right, because that was the sum total of 24 the intelligence, agreed? 25 A: Agree.
2711 Q: Okay. Have you determined, for 2 example, in your own mind since September 6th, 1995, that 3 the bat incident what -- never happened? Did you know 4 that? 5 A: The whole incident itself? 6 Q: Five (5) to ten (10) Natives or any 7 number of Natives never trashed a vehicle with baseball 8 bats of a private citizen driving by; that never 9 happened. Did you know that? 10 A: No I -- I don't know that. 11 Q: All right. This Commission has heard 12 evidence repeatedly from police officers as well as 13 civilians that in fact that never happened. To this day 14 you're only hearing that now, is that true? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: In fairness though, what the 17 Commission heard is that one (1) occupier threw a stone 18 against the car of another person, a member of the First 19 Nations community with whom which he was having a dispute 20 and -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: -- caused some damage on the side 23 panel of the car. That's -- that's a long stretch from 24 Natives attacking a private citizen's vehicle with 25 baseball bats outside of the Park wouldn't you agree?
2721 A: Yes. 2 Q: Right. And if you had known the 3 second set of information I just told you absent to 4 anything else, I don't want to try to pretend I can give 5 you all the context, but absent of anything else that 6 would be in your mind like apples and oranges in terms of 7 incidents, agreed? 8 A: It -- it's different, yes. 9 Q: Right. And then secondly I want to 10 ask you about this reference to the internal struggle 11 that you were told about by Officer Korosec. I mean that 12 notion of a group of people marching towards the Park and 13 threatening to engage in some kind of internal strife 14 that Wade Lacroix would be called upon to handle with his 15 Crowd Management unit, that as you've already testified 16 implies escalated violence, correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: If you had known, as we know today 19 that never happened, that would be different than what 20 you understood the facts to be at the time, right? 21 A: I -- I don't understand the question. 22 Q: I put it very badly so it's my fault. 23 Let me back up. 24 I'm going to suggest to you that that as 25 you've testified implied a certain level of violence,
2731 right? 2 A: The group from Kettle Point -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- coming -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- down en masse? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 8 minute. Before you answer, yes, Ms. Jones...? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, in 10 fairness what the transcript says and this is what was 11 read to the officer was we've got people opposed to them 12 are coming down from Kettle Point. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: And there's certainly 15 logger transcripts confirming that -- I can -- I don't 16 have the -- the time on my head, I can find it if it's of 17 assistance saying that there are -- are people and the 18 anti's from Kettle Point are at a checkpoint. I -- I'm 19 just -- I'm -- I'm concerned that -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: -- I mean one (1) -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just -- 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- one (1) of the 24 problems with giving a piece of information or a portion 25 of the picture to a witness and then asking him to
2741 comment on that -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: -- is it doesn't give 4 him the whole picture. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or giving 6 too wide an interpretation to a narrow piece of evidence, 7 Mr. Falconer, just if you're a little more precise. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: Certainly. So let me rephrase. 11 Looking at Tab 7 at page 3 do you recall telling me that 12 you'd understood that there was going to be a 13 confrontation by way of an internal battle; that's -- 14 that's what you testified you understood? 15 A: That was the -- the information that 16 was conveyed to me. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You see the reference to internal 20 battle? You see that? 21 A: Yes, I see it. 22 Q: And you understood, you already 23 testified that Wade Lacroix was going to manage CMU with 24 the view to potentially managing that if it happened, 25 right? That was --
2751 A: I testified that's what I got from 2 this conversation. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That's what was in your mind? 6 A: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: And now I ask you, you'd agree with 11 me that that internal battle that you thought Wade 12 Lacroix might have to handle with CMU wasn't because 13 there were some people from Kettle Point at a checkpoint 14 was it? 15 He wouldn't have to handle and internal 16 battle if some people showed up a checkpoint would he? 17 A: No, but if -- if people marched down 18 the road en masse that would be a situation that the CMU 19 could be deployed to try to keep them separated. 20 Q: Thank you. Now, did you ever learn 21 whether CMU had to be deployed to keep this internal 22 battle from happening? 23 A: I -- I don't believe it materialized. 24 Q: That's right. Now, based on what 25 I've told you so far the Natives with the baseball bats
2761 trashing the vehicle of the private citizen driving by 2 didn't materialize, right? 3 A: Right, that's what you told me. 4 Q: The -- right. The internal battle 5 didn't materialize, right? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Okay. Let's go to the third piece of 8 information you had, that's the weaponry. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Now, you have testified that the 11 search for weapons happened some days after September 12 6th, 1995, right? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: But nevertheless that search resulted 15 in no weapons being found, correct? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Now, let's go backwards though. What 18 weapons did you actually yourself see on the night of 19 September 6th, 1995? 20 A: I was at the -- the TOC that evening. 21 Q: I understand. 22 A: I -- 23 Q: What weapons did you see? 24 A: Police weapons. 25 Q: Right. You got in an ambulance with
2771 -- I'm sorry, his name's Slomer, -- 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: -- started driving down? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: See any weapons on your way down to 6 the site? 7 A: I only made it halfway down. 8 Q: And on your way down did you see any 9 Natives holding weapons? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: All right. Now, you talked to your 12 fellow members of TRU, yes? 13 A: Talked, when? 14 Q: You spoke to them that night. It was 15 a -- it was a serious encounter that your fellow team 16 members engaged in. Someone died. You talked to them 17 that night. 18 A: I did not speak to them that night 19 about weapons. 20 Q: All right. The following morning, 21 did you speak to them about weapons? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: Your at the hotel, or motel with all 24 the members of TRU waiting to see Norman Peel. 25 A: Right.
2781 Q: Who other than Deane actually saw a 2 weapon? 3 A: I have -- I don't have any 4 information of anyone other than Deane seeing a weapon. 5 Q: So in addition to the bats striking 6 the private vehicles not materializing, and in addition 7 to the internal battle not materializing, with the 8 exception of Ken Deane's sighting the AK-47s, the Molotov 9 cocktails, the hunting rifles, they didn't materialize, 10 with the exception of the Ken Deane sighting, correct? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And really, based on your evidence, 13 the Ken Deane sighting happens twice, right? You -- you 14 testified before in-chief, you testified that it was your 15 understanding and you actually noted down that Mr. Deane, 16 based on your monitoring of the tapes, Mr. Deane saw what 17 he thought was a long gun or a bow before the shooting, 18 correct? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Right. And that was your take on the 21 situation as you monitored it, correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Right. And so to the extent he sees 24 something in Dudley George's hands in his own mind, 25 that's the second time that night he thinks he may have
2791 seen a weapon, correct? 2 A: I can't speak to Ken -- for Ken Deane 3 what he -- what he saw. 4 Q: Okay. You mean with Dudley George? 5 A: Yes. I -- 6 Q: Right, fair enough. Okay, thank you. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: If you could turn to Tab 9, please. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Three's a brief conversation that 15 happens between yourself and Officer Skinner on September 16 7th 1995, in and around 3:00 a.m. Do you see that? 17 Take a moment to familiarize or -- or 18 reacquaint yourself with that exchange. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: All right? 23 A: Okay, so this is the -- the morning 24 of the 7th? 25 Q: Yes. It says at the top, September
2801 7th 3:21. To the extent it represents a telephone call 2 you -- you may add seven (7) minutes to the 3:21 a.m. as 3 an outside time it happened. 4 A: I'm just trying to recall where I was 5 at that time when I received this. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: For the record this document 11 represents Exhibit P-1356 that we're looking at. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And I thank Mr. 14 Worme for that. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 19 ready to proceed? Are you ready to proceed? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Yes, I am. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: You said you were trying to 24 familiarize yourself with something. Was there something 25 you needed help with?
2811 A: No, I -- I'm just trying to recall 2 this conversation that I had that's all. 3 Q: All right. Fair enough. And do you 4 recall it? 5 A: No, I don't have a first -- first 6 recollection of -- of having this conversation. 7 Q: Well, let me ask you, the gist of the 8 conversation for the record is apparently your superiors 9 called you at around 3:20 in the morning September 7th -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- and he says halfway down page 1: 12 "The other guys are going to probably 13 about an hour here." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you're calling Command Post so 17 "here" means Command Post, that -- that Skinner is 18 telling you that the guys are going to be at Command Post 19 for another hour, right? 20 A: That's what it appears. 21 Q: All right. Now, you say: 22 "Q: They're in Forest now? 23 A: No. Okay. My book is out there." 24 Do you see Kent Skinner saying, My book is 25 out there?
2821 A: Yes. 2 Q: And he says: 3 "Don't let me forget it." 4 And he says, 5 "My black binder." 6 And you ask: 7 "Do you remember where you laid it? 8 It's in the TOC somewhere bud. 9 I'll find it and put it in a safe spot 10 [is what you tell Officer Skinner]." 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: Now, can you tell us about that black 13 binder please? 14 A: I presume, when I hear "black binder" 15 I think like a -- day planner. 16 Q: And did you locate that black binder? 17 A: I -- I don't recall. 18 Q: So you wouldn't know what was in it? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So when you said you presume you're 21 just guessing, you have no idea what was in that black 22 binder? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: All right. But you do agree with me 25 that it's obvious that your superior officer Skinner was
2831 particularly concerned to make sure that black binder was 2 retrieved; that's why he's calling you? 3 A: Yeah. He wanted -- he wanted his 4 black binder. 5 Q: Do you have any experience with your 6 superior Kent Skinner keeping a black binder? Do you 7 remember anything about that? 8 A: We -- we all kept day -- day planners 9 -- phone with phone numbers, phone lists. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: Calendars. 12 Q: And so it would be in the form of a 13 black binder? 14 A: Yeah. The -- somewhat smaller than 15 this, not -- about that size though. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. 17 A: A day planner. 18 Q: Now, I notice Kent Skinner's 19 reference to the fact that the term: 20 "The other guys are going to be 21 probably about an hour here." 22 I take it you called the team for a 23 reason, right? 24 A: Pardon me? 25 Q: You called the team for a reason?
2841 A: That's right. 2 Q: You -- you engage together as a team 3 in what amounts to life threatening work? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And -- and from the point of view of 6 Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto I want to put this 7 on the record that it's appreciated that you engaged in 8 work that's that serious and that dangerous and -- and no 9 one makes light of that. All right? As a team it's 10 important that you stick together? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. And when he says the 13 other guys are going to probably be about an hour here, 14 the other guys are the other members of your team? 15 That's what you're talking about? 16 A: What -- what I get from this is most 17 likely the team that's going to relieve us. The Barrie 18 team. 19 Q: All right. And -- 20 A: Or Belleville team. I can't -- well 21 it was Joe Girard, the Barrie team. 22 Q: And I take it that same team idea is 23 the next day as a team, you go to the hotel to meet with 24 Mr. Peel, right? 25 A: That's correct.
2851 Q: And as a team if -- if you have a bad 2 back one (1) of the other members of the team substitutes 3 in for you, right? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And that's just what Ken Deane did, 6 right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: He did something that was more 9 difficult than he might have had to do because you 10 weren't up to it because no fault of your own, because of 11 your back, right? 12 A: Difficult isn't -- isn't a proper use 13 -- word to use. It's just a different role. 14 Q: Fair enough. But as you become 15 higher in the mange -- management ranks, it's more 16 appropriate that you're at a communications level 17 coordinating than in the field in the front line, 18 correct? 19 A: I agree. 20 Q: And he went back to that role to help 21 you out and the team out because of something you 22 couldn't help, your back, right? 23 A: Yes. We traded spots but in -- in 24 times after this, there was a period of time where we put 25 the Sergeant on the ground and had a regular Constable in
2861 the TOC. 2 So it doesn't always stay true that you 3 put the more experienced officer in the TOC because we 4 went for years with the more experienced officer on the 5 ground then with the team. 6 Q: Okay. And addressing it sort of from 7 a more personal point of view, you were asked if you felt 8 before -- you were asked if you felt awkward about the 9 change. I'm going to use a different word. 10 I'm going to ask you in view of ultimately 11 the circumstances surrounding Ken Deane's discharge of 12 his weapon and everything that flowed from it and from 13 some people's point of view what was a career ending 14 involvement on his part, right? 15 And his conviction and everything that 16 happened, did you ever feel some element of guilt about 17 the fact that he stepped for you and it ultimately 18 resulted in him being in the position he was. 19 Did you ever feel any guilt at all? 20 A: Guilt -- "guilt" is the wrong word. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Guilt. You -- you wonder what the 23 circumstances would have been if the switch hadn't been 24 made. But we -- we have to do our job and -- and we do 25 it. We do what we have to do.
2871 Q: And the only reason I ask you that is 2 of course, it makes it all the more important if there's 3 anything that can be done to help Ken Deane after the 4 fact, that you'd do it, right? As a member of your team. 5 A: We're police officers first. We're - 6 - we're tactical officers second. We -- we do -- we 7 uphold the law. That -- that's what we -- we do. 8 Q: Would you agree -- 9 A: So if there's something legal that we 10 can do to assist, then -- then we would. If you're 11 implying that we would do something other than that, 12 that's -- we wouldn't. 13 Q: So you would do what you could that 14 was legal to assist? 15 A: That's correct. That's correct. 16 Q: All right. And did you know -- that 17 day you were in the hotel with other members of the TRU 18 team, do you recall immediately after leaving the hotel, 19 spending any further time with members of the TRU team 20 that day? 21 A: We -- we went back to work that day. 22 Q: All right. So you were together? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And that would have been 25 into at least dinner time? September 7th.
2881 A: We worked a full night shift that -- 2 Q: On the 7th of September? 3 A: On the 7th of September. 4 Q: And whether I call it, you and the 5 other boys or you and the guys, the guys would have been 6 the same TRU team, right? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And the second in command would have 9 been Tex? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And so Tex and the boys could have 12 consisted of him, you, Beauchesne, Klym and others that 13 are a member of that team? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: All right. Could you please direct 16 your attention to a transcript that I wanted to ask you 17 about. That is right now Exhibit P-1361. It is a 18 transcript that's not in the Commission Counsel's 19 documents. I am providing you with a copy and the 20 Commissioner a copy. Counsel and your counsel. 21 Now you'll see the date, it refers to 22 September 7th, 1995 at around 18:45. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And we've always got to do the seven 25 (7) minute caution, right?
2891 A: Okay. 2 Q: Mr. Millar has us very well trained. 3 Now page 1, I just want to ask you something. It says 4 it's Wade Lacroix speaking to Brian Deevy who we've heard 5 evidence from Kent Skinner, is a replacement from the 6 Barrie team. Deevy is the head of the Barrie team, fair 7 enough? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: All right. Now, there's a reference 10 to a -- you see at the top of page 1: 11 "BRIAN DEEVY: Hello. 12 WADE LACROIX: It's the Inquiry voice 13 talking. 14 [Answer] me. 15 Yeah. 16 Okay. 17 Listen, buddy..." 18 You see Wade Lacroix? 19 A: Yes, I see -- 20 Q: "Yeah? 21 I'm here with Tex and the boys." 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: That would be your team, right? 24 A: That'd be the team. I presume. I 25 don't know who "the boy -- and the boys" are. But I make
2901 that assumption. 2 Q: And the reason you make that 3 assumption is that's kind of the team mentality, right? 4 Tex and the boys, that -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- would be the team? Now, in terms 7 of Wade Lacroix, the interesting thing about him is that 8 he was actually your team leader at one (1) time. 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: So he'd fit in terms of personalities 11 you would know -- familiarize yourself with him and trust 12 him, right? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: So he de facto, was part of the team 15 though historic -- though he wasn't any more, right? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Right. He says to Brian Deevy: 18 "I'm here with Tex and the boys." 19 Now, I want to ask you something. Is it 20 possible, thinking back, on September 7th at 18:45, that 21 you might have been there when Wade Lacroix called Brian 22 Deevy in and around September 7th, 1995 at 18:45? 23 A: Just give me a moment to -- 24 Q: Sure. 25 A: -- where I was at that time.
2911 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I don't believe I would have been. I 4 -- my role that evening was at the command post, manning 5 the phones. 6 Q: Are you able to show me where in your 7 notes that's reflected? 8 A: Ah -- 9 Q: Do I have a copy of that? 10 A: I don't know. Page 59 of the 7th 11 should... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Could I see the original portion of 16 that without showing me anything to do with anything non- 17 Ipperwash? Is that do-able? 18 A: Yeah, no it's all -- all Ipperwash. 19 Q: It's all Ipperwash? If I could ask 20 Mr. Clerk to -- to bring it over here. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you 22 seen this, Ms. Jones? It isn't in the binder, I don't 23 think. That's fine. 24 THE WITNESS: I just point out that -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Sir, Commissioner --
2921 THE WITNESS: That's where we go to 2 Forest -- 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- 4 THE WITNESS: And then there's my 5 assignment. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: The -- if the -- sorry. 7 It's okay. He's welcome to look at the notes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 9 officer, were you -- were you saying something? 10 THE WITNESS: Oh, I just showed the Clerk 11 where -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: -- the two (2) entries -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 THE WITNESS: -- were. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just don't 17 have a copy of it. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 20 Q: So just for the record, it indicates 21 at the top of the page you directed my attention to, 22 Thursday 7th September, '95; is that correct? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And it -- then it reads on: 25 "14:00 report for duty, London TRU at
2931 Pinery, re. Ipperwash Park occupation. 2 Travel from Pinery to Grand Bend. 3 Speak to Norm Peel, lawyer re. last 4 night. 17:00 back at Pinery get ready 5 for shift. Travel to Forest. CP 6 relieve Barrie. TRU duty to act as 7 reaction teams if needed. IAP." 8 Immediate action plan. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And then you identify Alpha, Bravo 11 and Charlie. Then you say: 12 "Delta, Slomer, TRU TOC to operate from 13 CP with Alpha, Bravo." 14 Now, I'm stopping you there. Is the idea 15 that you remain as a team together the night of September 16 7th? In other words, you've just -- 17 A: As a reaction team, that's their 18 assignments. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And then at the bottom of the page it 21 indicates that I'm at the CP. 22 Q: I -- 23 A: Meaning I'm at the - 24 Q: You're -- 25 A: -- command post.
2941 Q: Right. I -- 2 A: So the team -- the team is off to be 3 a reaction team and I, by myself, manning the phones in 4 the command post with other officers from different 5 units. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, if 7 it's of assistance to people because they don't obviously 8 have this officer's notebooks in hand, his notes are in 9 the database at 2003988. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: But they -- for some 12 reason they weren't included and -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Commission 15 Counsel's -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They could 17 be brought up. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: I -- I just want to 19 make it clear that the documents have been provided and-- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 21 understand. We don't get every -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- they're available -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- document 24 for our binder. I understand that. 25
2951 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: And then you're quite right sir. 3 Reading the bottom: 4 "Repeated due to distances involved. I 5 assist in Command or CP with 6 communications function as TAC 2." 7 Is that right? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And "CP" is Command Post? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the top of the next page: 12 "While stationary Incident Commander 13 Inspector Thompson; Acting Staff 14 Sergeant Skinner through Acting 15 Sergeant Lloyd Kineapple, ERT; that is 16 Larry Schellenberger; Constable Alex 17 Potrin (phonetic), scribe." 18 And then it says: 19 "Alpha, Charlie and D-E-T at Command 20 Post. Bravo. Advise units 10-5 from 21 Skinner until advised. Seventy (70) to 22 one hundred (100) warriors just came 23 from meeting who have access to five 24 hundred (500) to eight hundred (800) 25 AK-47s are en route to Ipperwash from
2961 Six Nations." 2 Then it says: 3 "08:30 quiet evening. Barrie on scene 4 now ." 5 First of all let me ask you, did you ever 6 see the -- did the five hundred (500) to eight hundred 7 (800) -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm sorry -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where -- 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 13 Q: Did the five hundred (500) to eight 14 hundred (800) AK-47s ever materialize? 15 A: No. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Thank you. 18 Q: And do you remember who you got that 19 intelligence from? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please, Mr. 21 Falconer, we didn't lead that evidence. It didn't seem 22 to be relevant so I don't think it was led by Commission 23 Counsel. You're leading it and now you're knocking it 24 down it seems. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, with --
2971 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It doesn't 2 seem to have any relevance. Did you lead it? I don't 3 recall it. 4 MR. DONALD WORME: I didn't lead it. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, Mr. 6 Commissioner, I assume -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Try to just 8 stay on what's relevant. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I -- but -- but I 10 assume -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- the relevance 13 is -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There must 15 be lots of stuff in there that we're not leading because 16 it isn't relevant. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough but I 18 assume that the relevance comes from different 19 perspectives so the fact that -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- Mr. Worme, with 22 respect didn't lead it doesn't mean it's not -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It doesn't 24 mean it but you're now showing me that it's not 25 relevant --
2981 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I haven't asked the 2 question. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because 4 it never materialized. Yes, you did. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I asked if it had 6 materialized and he said no. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, okay, 8 where are we now? 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 11 introduced it. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've said 14 it never materialized. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 17 Q: Right. And now I go back to what I 18 was asking you before. There was a -- obviously an 19 attendance wherein Wade Lacroix was with, quote, Tex and 20 the boys, and you've had a chance to look at your notes 21 is it your evidence you weren't with them? 22 A: Yes, we -- we were separated. 23 Q: All right. And do you recall where 24 Tex and the boys were? 25
2991 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: It says in my notes that: 4 " Alpha Charlie Delta at CP. Bravo 5 with 6 APC at fairgrounds." 7 So one (1) -- one (1) team, the Bravo 8 team's at the fairgrounds and then Alpha Charlie Delta at 9 the CP but not in the trailer that I'm at so they're some 10 place other than where I'm situated. 11 Q: Alpha Charlie Delta would include Ken 12 Deane? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I don't have anything indicated in 17 here what Deane's assignment was for that evening. I 18 went through the -- the Alpha team, the Bravo team, the 19 Charlie team and the Delta team and I don't see Deane's 20 name here and I don't recall what his assignment would 21 have been that night. 22 Q: All right. So can you help us on 23 whether the teams stayed together or not? In other words 24 the team -- 25 A: No, we're -- what I'm saying is I --
3001 I'm separated. I -- I'm in -- in the TOC which is next 2 to the Command Post which is a trailer, a mobile Command 3 Post, with dispatchers and people answering phones. 4 The team is outside or some -- in the 5 garage or some place other than I'm at. I don't know 6 where they are. 7 Q: Well that's fair. And I just want to 8 clarify though that when you see the team is outside and 9 around, is that team the team that includes your London 10 TRU team? 11 Being the people that you worked with the 12 night before? 13 A: Yes. The Alpha team is O'Halloran, 14 Irvine, McCormack, Strickler and Kamerman. That's the 15 Alpha team. Those are the guys that I worked with the 16 night before. 17 Q: All right. But I notice you didn't 18 mention Mr. Deane, that's fine -- 19 A: No, I didn't. I -- I've searched my 20 notes and I'm trying to find some indication what his 21 assignment was that night. And I -- I don't see that. 22 Q: All right. Fair enough. Let me move 23 on then. 24 We talked about information sharing a 25 little while ago in terms of information that you
3011 learned, you'd passed onto your colleagues and vice 2 versa, correct? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: All right. I just want to know then 5 about the information learned in this conversation that 6 includes Wade Lacroix and with him are Tex and the boys. 7 Very quickly I want to ask you first of 8 all, did you know or did it come to your attention that 9 Wade Lacroix in the company of Tex and the boys, had 10 inquired of Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy as to the injuries 11 sustained by Clifford -- I'm sorry, by Cecil Bernard 12 George and the injuries sustained to Dudley George? 13 Did you know that those inquiries were 14 made of Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy on the night of 15 September 7th, 1995? 16 A: No. No, I did not. 17 Q: All right. We've heard from -- and 18 did you also know and you'll see it -- it's on the first 19 page where -- three quarters of the way down the page: 20 "We want to know what the injuries are from the autopsy." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: I -- I'm sorry, I've lo -- oh, it's 23 on this one. 24 Q: First page of 13:61: 25 "What's the -- we want to know what the
3021 injuries are from the autopsy." 2 Do you see that? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: All right. Did you know that 5 inquiries were being made about the contents of the 6 autopsy report? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: Did you subsequently learn about what 9 injuries were sustained? In other words did you learn 10 after the fact? 11 A: Not until weeks later. 12 Q: Weeks later? All right. And then I 13 want to see if I can refresh your memory in terms of what 14 you did or didn't know. If you flip to the second page, 15 top, main paragraph, do you see how Brian Deevy describes 16 what he heard about the injuries to one (1) guy in the 17 head et cetera and the other guy I heard got a shot in 18 the chest. 19 Do you see all those? Top main paragraph. 20 There's a main paragraph that says BD. 21 A: Yeah, yeah I see it. 22 Q: Just review that information and tell 23 me if that information came to your attention shortly 24 after the shooting? 25
3031 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yeah, I wasn't aware of this. 4 Q: All right. Moving to the third page. 5 Brian Deevy provides details at page 3 and I want to know 6 if these details came to your -- third paragraph. 7 Wade Lacroix asked: 8 "Dudley only had two (2) holes in him 9 because I think a lot of us -- I think 10 he was the guy in the car. He got hit. 11 DEEVY: Well I heard that somebody 12 said that he--" 13 A: I -- I'm sorry not at the same spot. 14 Page 3 of 10? 15 Q: Yeah. "Well I heard that --" page 3, 16 third paragraph, "Well I heard that --". See BD? 17 A: Yeah. I see it now. 18 Q: "Well I heard that somebody said that 19 he was lit up by a light and he got 20 shot a lot. But then I heard from 21 somebody that there were two (2) rounds 22 in the chest and then I saw a Native 23 being interviewed and he said he got it 24 in the chest. He was really pumping 25 out in the chest area with a very
3041 serious wound. 2 So I could -- I don't know." 3 Then BD goes on: 4 "There was a lot of activity, a fair 5 bit of activity during the day. There 6 was Natives coming in from all over the 7 place." 8 Stopping there, did you learn this 9 information as passed on by Brian Deevy to Wade Lacroix? 10 A: No. I wasn't aware of this. 11 Q: All right. Do you know of any 12 protocol that would make it appropriate for officers 13 involved in a SIU investigation, that is subject officers 14 such as a Ken Deane or a Wade Lacroix, do you know -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: Well, okay, let me back up. I'll 19 remove the word "subject" from my question. 20 Do you know of any protocol that would 21 make it appropriate for officers in the position of Wade 22 Lacroix or Ken Deane to be making inquiries the following 23 day for the contents of the autopsy report? 24 A: I don't -- I don't know what their 25 tasks were.
3051 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: When they made these inquiries. I... 3 Q: Thank you. So I take it there would 4 be some tasks that would make this appropriate? 5 A: I don't know what function they -- 6 they -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: What this conversation was over. 9 Q: Fair enough. 10 A: The reason for the conversation. 11 Q: You've been asked a lot of questions 12 about the tape by Mr. Rosenthal. I don't propose to ask 13 you much because we're going to hear about the tape 14 later, presumably, if we have some access to it. 15 But let me ask you this. I take it there 16 was nothing stopping you, no direction or order between 17 September 7th 1995, indeed September 6th, 1995 and April 18 1996, stopping you from simply turning the tape over to, 19 for example, Detective Sergeant Goodall. 20 There was nothing stopping you from doing 21 that? 22 A: No, there wasn't. 23 Q: And similarly, there was nothing 24 stopping you from simply taking the tape and turning it 25 over to SIU investigators?
3061 A: No, there was nothing stopping me 2 from doing that. 3 Q: Now you testified to Mr. Rosenthal 4 that the tape, you thought to yourself this might become 5 important one day, right? 6 A: It may be. Someone may ask for it. 7 Q: That's right. And you know, as a 8 police officer, that if "someone may ask for it", quotes 9 around someone may ask for it, that means it could be 10 "potential evidence"? Quotes around potential evidence, 11 right? 12 A: It's a possibility. 13 Q: Right. And you know that you have 14 certain obligations in respect of potential evidence, 15 don't you? 16 A: Yes, I do. 17 Q: And you know, and you have in the 18 past as a police officer, protected the continuity of 19 evidence, correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Would you agree with me that under no 22 standards of continuity could leaving something in an 23 open locker represent proper continuity of evidence? 24 Would you agree with that? 25 A: The locker was in our locked
3071 building. My superior officer knew of -- of the tape and 2 the fact that it didn't have recording on it. 3 Q: But I'm asking you about continuity 4 of evidence, sir. I'm not asking -- 5 A: I was not clear whether that was 6 evidence at that time. There was nothing on the tape. 7 Q: Fair enough. So are we agreed that 8 because of your understandings, you did not apply rules 9 with respect to the continuity of evidence; agreed? 10 A: That's -- that's agreed. 11 Q: Right. Because if you were applying 12 rules with respect to the continuity of evidence, you 13 would have kept that, even if you were going to keep it 14 yourself, in an evidence locker; agreed? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And by failing to keep it in an 17 evidence locker, you cannot, under Oath today, certify 18 that no one tampered with that tape, correct? 19 A: It's my belief that -- that tape was 20 not tampered with but you're correct. It's -- could 21 someone have pulled it out of there, just like they could 22 have pulled it out of the file drawer, the other spot it 23 could have been kept, is a possibility. 24 Q: Did Detective Sergeant Goodall ever 25 explain to you why he didn't want that tape?
3081 A: No, he did not. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Did you have any interactions with 6 Mark Wright, the second in command at the -- at the 7 Ipperwash incident? 8 Did you have much to do with Mark Wright? 9 A: I assisted him on the night of the 10 5th with setting up the video printer. That was 11 basically my exposure to him, I believe. 12 Q: And do you recall after the shooting, 13 having any interactions with him? 14 A: He interviewed me with -- for the 15 parallel investigation. 16 Q: Mark Wright? 17 A: Oh, I'm sorry, Mark Dew. I'm getting 18 names mixed up here. 19 Q: No, that's okay. So let's go 20 backwards to make sure that we're talking about the same 21 people. 22 A: I'd have to have -- now that I've 23 made that, I'd like to look back on my notes and find out 24 who I assisted with the logger recorder. 25 Q: Fair enough, because I want to know
3091 about your interactions with Detective Sergeant Mark -- 2 A: Because I -- 3 Q: -- Wright at the time. 4 A: I'm thinking now I'm thinking Mark 5 Dew. 6 Q: Fair enough, that's all right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just want 11 to remind you, Mr. Falconer, you're almost up to an hour. 12 I presume you're almost done. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 THE WITNESS: That was -- I misspoke. 17 That was my error and it was Mark Dew who I was thinking 18 about. It was Mark Dew who interviewed me. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: So backing up, my -- my question and 22 -- and I appreciate error, it happens to all of us. 23 Dealing now with Mark Wright can you assist me as to what 24 interactions you had with Detective Sergeant Mark Wright 25 who was --
3101 A: I did not have any direct 2 interactions with Mark Wight. 3 Q: All right. You knew Dudley George; 4 in fact you knew him growing up, yes? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And the reason I ask it, did you have 7 any impression that he was a stranger to the other 8 officers involved in the incident or not? Like in other 9 words did -- did they -- did they seem not know him or 10 knew him or...? 11 A: There -- there was some information 12 that there was -- there was a package at the -- the 13 bunkhouse that I -- I remember looking at that had a 14 picture of Dudley George in it. It was an information 15 package of some sort and there was some information on 16 him and a photograph of him. 17 Q: And that -- 18 A: As one (1) of the occupiers or -- or 19 someone that may have had a warrant out for their arrest 20 or something like that. 21 Q: And that would have been prior the 22 night of September 6th, 1995? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And so anyone looking at the package 25 in your mind would have known not only the name Dudley
3111 George but his face? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And that's the idea of the 4 identification package so you're familiar with who the 5 occupiers are? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And their history? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Did you know that an arrest warrant 10 had gone out in the name of Dudley George in respect of 11 the picnic table incident? 12 A: I -- sitting here today I -- I don't 13 have a direct recollection of that. 14 Q: All right. I -- I do want to 15 understand one (1) more thing about -- and -- and I -- I 16 hesitate to say this is my last area, it always hangs me 17 by my own petard but here I go, I'm doing it again. This 18 is my last area. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: I do want to understand one (1) 23 thing. You didn't just make one (1) mistake in terms of 24 failing to record. The audio machine, that's one (1) 25 mistake, right?
3121 A: That's correct, I made that error. 2 Q: You made a second mistake in failing 3 to write up the logs of what you were hearing on the 4 tapes. Like as soon as the situation became critical as 5 you put it the bus driving out, that's when you stopped 6 recording? 7 A: I -- I don't look at that -- that as 8 a mistake. You can only record what you -- what you can 9 physically do and I -- I was told to do another task at 10 that point. 11 Q: Well, with respect, sir, your 12 evidence previously was that some minutes went by before 13 you were instructed for the ambulance, et cetera to 14 happen. Minutes went by. 15 The incident as I understood your evidence 16 unfolded thusly, that first of all chatter occurred that 17 the bus came out, right? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And you didn't note that? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Then information chatter came out 22 about a car? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And you didn't note that? 25 A: That's correct.
3131 Q: Then information came out about 2 officers firing? 3 A: It -- it all happened simultaneously. 4 The bus -- when the -- the bus came out there was 5 gunfire. When the car came out there was gunfire. 6 Q: And none of those things were noted? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And the instruction you received to 9 assist Slomer, that happens after when there's a concern 10 of officers being injured? 11 A: Moments. 12 Q: Moments. 13 A: Moments. 14 Q: And in the moments before that 15 instruction to go you wrote nothing about the critical 16 incident? 17 A: I was recording those notes. The 18 critical incident happened, I was catching up on those 19 notes. It happened. I was focussed on what I heard; 20 that's a significant event. It's like you can't believe 21 what's happening and when -- when you do realize it and 22 you go to put pen to paper to record that you're being 23 told to do something else. That's how that happened. 24 Q: And that's the part I want to finish 25 with so I understand. If you look at Tab 6 you'd agree
3141 with me that Tab 6 reflects a log that was meant to be 2 kept contemporaneous with the radio transmissions, 3 correct? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And the idea was to create this 6 backup record in the event the machine doesn't work among 7 other things, correct? 8 A: The -- the intent was so that you 9 could have a -- a place to -- to start to know what time 10 something happened. So you could look at this log and 11 go, Oh, that event happened at this time, that's where we 12 have to look. 13 Q: But you also knew that you were 14 keeping a log as a backup and that's standard police 15 procedure, isn't it? 16 A: The intent of this log was to refer 17 it back to the tape by luck it's here minus the tape. 18 Q: Is it your evidence because I asked 19 the question with respect, sir, I didn't feel that you -- 20 you responded directly, now isn't it standard police 21 procedure to -- to make backup notes to any taped 22 occasion or taped incident in the event, among other 23 things, that the machinery doesn't work; isn't that 24 standard? 25 A: Take notes as the -- the event that
3151 you're sitting through, yeah, it's good practice. 2 Q: Yes and it's good practice in the 3 event the technology fails, right? 4 A: It would work, yes. 5 Q: And you knew that was your obligation 6 that night. 7 A: And I -- I did it to the best of my 8 ability here. 9 Q: Well you stopped. 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: When -- when you need -- right. 12 You -- 13 A: I stopped. 14 Q: You did. You made two (2) mistakes. 15 You -- you failed -- 16 A: This isn't a mistake. 17 Q: Well let's go -- 18 A: This is just not a -- this is not a 19 mistake. 20 Q: At 23:01 -- 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: -- the fourth page, at 23:01 I can't 23 see any reference to an order to you to go somewhere 24 else, right? 25 A: Right.
3161 Q: It didn't happen at 23:01. 2 A: No, it didn't. 3 Q: No. At 23:01, that's probably when 4 the bus left, right? 5 A: Short -- moments after 23:01. 6 Q: Right. But you didn't note that. 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: We've gone over this now. 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And what I'm putting to you is not 11 only did you fail to record by machine, but you failed to 12 record it in writing. 13 A: And when I'm explaining to you is, 14 you can't do two (2) things at the same time. As 23:01 15 happens, I'm probably writing 23:59. Then I -- I'm 16 writing this out. By the time I'm done this, the -- the 17 significant happens. 18 You're -- you're focussed on -- on this 19 gunfire. It doesn't happen everyday that a bus drives 20 through the Crowd Management Unit. It doesn't happen 21 everyday that a car tries to run over officers. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 THE WITNESS: And there's more gunfire. 24 I -- I'm focussed on -- on what I hear. When -- when 25 that's done you go to write and they say, Go, because
3171 there's been a call for an ambulance and you go. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Falconer. Ms. Jones...? 5 Yes, Ms. Jones, I presume you have some 6 questions. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I do have some 8 questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 10 asked you how long do you think you might be. How long 11 do you think you might be? 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I might be about 13 fifteen (15) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About 15 fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: Just going back, Officer, to the 19 question that Mr. Falconer asked you because I -- I 20 wasn't quite clear. Is it actually a requirement for TRU 21 that if there is a tape of an event, that someone also 22 must take notes? 23 A: I -- I don't believe that it's a 24 requirement. It's -- it's good practice to have 25 something else to refer to to relate back to the tape.
3181 Q: Okay. And when you say relate back 2 to the tape, when you were taking the notes that you see 3 at Tab 6, those are the -- the notes that you took over 4 the course of the evening of September the 6th, what were 5 you trying to capture in those notes? 6 What was the purpose of your keeping that 7 log? 8 A: The -- the purpose of this log was so 9 that you had some indication of what happened at a 10 specific time so you could go back to the logger recorder 11 and locate that transmission. 12 Q: Okay. Were you trying to capture 13 with great detail or accuracy, everything that you heard 14 on the TRU radio? 15 A: You -- you couldn't capture 16 everything that -- that was said over the radio. 17 Q: Okay. And do you know if after you 18 left or were ordered by now-Inspector Skinner to go out 19 with the Medic Slomer whether anybody else would have 20 been at the back who could take notes? 21 A: There -- there would be no one else 22 there. 23 Q: Right. You were asked again some 24 questions about the tapes from the incidents and -- and I 25 think I heard two (2) things -- sorry, tapes being the
3191 logger tapes that TRU keeps from incidents. 2 And I think I heard two (2) things and I'm 3 not sure what the answer is. I think I heard two (2) 4 possibilities for how tapes would be kept after 5 incidents. 6 One I heard was in the filing drawer in 7 the TRU office and one I heard was in an evidence locker. 8 Has it ever been your experience that a tape from an 9 incident was kept in an evidence locker as opposed to the 10 TRU office? 11 A: No. No. 12 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 13 about your attendance on September the 7th at the 14 Pinedale Motel, okay. And you were taken to your 15 evidence at Ken Deane's trial. 16 And just so you have a chance to look at 17 it, it is at Tab 12 of your book and it's P-1381. And if 18 I can just get you to turn to page -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner. 20 The only -- if this is really -- if the idea of re- 21 examination is to ask him a question -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This isn't 23 re-examination. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right, so -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have a
3201 strange procedure. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay, fair enough. 3 So if we don't call it re-examination, in any event, 4 taking her client to a transcript and just opening it up 5 in front of him -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, she 7 hasn't done that, yet. Let's see what she's doing. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, no, that's 9 what she's doing. That's -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 11 not -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: If she had a 13 question. She doesn't, she's opening up the evidence 14 first so he looks at it while she's asking him questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume she 16 has a question. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I'm just -- 18 that's my concern that asked the question -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume Ms. 20 Jones is going to ask him a question. 21 Yes, Ms. Jones...? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I intend to ask a
3211 question, Mr. Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 3 think you were opening it just to let him read it. You 4 do have a question? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, no, I wasn't 6 opening it just to let him read it. I asked him to turn 7 here because he was asked questions about this -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and he had an 10 opportunity to look at it that time. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I thought if he needed 13 an opportunity to -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- see what I was 16 referring to, it would be here for him. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: You were asked questions, officer, 21 about your evidence at trial about meeting at the 22 Pinedale Motel with other members of TRU? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And you had noted in your evidence, 25 as it was shown to you, that you had indicated that
3221 London TRU went together to the Pinedale Motel? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you were asked questions about 4 who, if anyone else, was in attendance at the Pinedale 5 Motel. 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And can you tell us today if you 8 specifically recall whether anyone else was at the 9 Pinedale Motel when the London TRU team went to meet with 10 Mr. Peel? 11 A: There were other -- other members 12 there. I don't specifically recall who those members 13 were though. 14 Q: Okay. And further to that, a little 15 bit further to that, you were asked some questions about 16 a phone call between Wade Lacroix and Brian Deevy on 17 September the 7th. 18 That call is, according to this, made at 19 18:45 hours plus or minus -- or whatever those minutes 20 are and you had looked at your notes. Now can you tell 21 from your notes whether or not London TRU was back on 22 duty by 18:00 hours on September the 7th? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3231 A: From my notes at 17:00 we were back 2 at the Pinery to get ready for our shift, so that's five 3 o'clock and then we travel to the CP. It -- it's my 4 impression from my notes that we would be on duty at -- 5 at that time, at 18:30. 6 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Falconer took you to 7 a transcript and do you have that transcript in front of 8 you? 9 A: The Deevy/Lacroix -- 10 Q: That's right. That's right. 11 A: -- transcript? Okay. Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 13 the number of this by any chance? I don't have a number 14 on it. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 1361. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry, it's Exhibit 17 1361. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: At 18:45 hours on September the 7th, 22 were you in a room with Wade Lacroix, to your knowledge? 23 A: No, I wasn't. 24 Q: Do you have any idea where Wade 25 Lacroix was?
3241 A: At that time? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: Do you have any idea who would have 5 been with Wade Lacroix at 18:45 hours or hereabout? 6 A: No. No, I don't. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: You were asked some questions about 12 the basis upon which TRU was deployed on the evening of 13 September the 6th and the basis for which CMU was 14 deployed on September the 6th. 15 Are you as a TRU member responsible for 16 determining whether or not it's appropriate for TRU to be 17 deployed or is that the role of the Incident Commander? 18 A: That's the role of the Incident 19 Commander. 20 Q: Similarly, are you responsible for 21 determining the appropriateness of deploying the CMU or 22 is that the role of the Incident Commander? 23 A: That's the role of the Incident 24 Commander. 25 Q: And isn't that because the Incident
3251 Commander has the best access to information? 2 A: That -- 3 Q: And is the person specifically 4 assigned to make those decisions? 5 A: He's the person in charge. 6 Q: You were asked some questions about 7 who you know if anyone besides Ken Deane who saw weapons 8 on the night of September the 6th. 9 Have you ever talked to any of the other 10 officers involved in the CMU about what they saw 11 specifically on the night of September 6th in terms of 12 weapons? 13 A: No, I haven't. 14 Q: And have you had a specific 15 conversation with other members of TRU about what was 16 seen on the night of September the 6th? 17 A: Not -- not specific. Over the 18 periods of years and not recent to this event after the 19 trial I had some general conversations with -- with 20 officers but not as a group and not -- not in total of 21 the event. 22 Q: Okay. I just want -- wanted to ask 23 you a few more questions and, Mr. Commissioner, I'm 24 almost done. 25 You had been asked some questions at the
3261 start of your evidence about cross-training and had 2 talked about how members of the TRU could take places on 3 other elements. 4 Were you ever trained as a sniper or 5 qualified as a sniper? 6 A: In my basic training there's -- 7 there's sniper -- sniper observer training. I would have 8 received that training. Over and above that there's a 9 sniper observer course, a specific course that they go 10 on. I -- I have not received that -- that training so I 11 -- I understand the fundamentals but I haven't received 12 the advanced training. 13 Q: Okay. Would it be usual or common 14 for you without that kind of advanced training or any TRU 15 officer without that kind of advanced training to operate 16 in a sniper position? 17 A: I could more readily operate as the 18 observer for sniper observer position but as far as the 19 weapon -- the weapon being zeroed to my eye and -- and to 20 fill in that role to the -- to the point that they can I 21 wouldn't be able to do that. 22 Q: Okay. I also wanted to confirm and 23 if it helps you, you can look at Tab 7 of your book; 24 that's P-1322 and that's the transcript of the phone call 25 between yourself and Bob Cousineau and Stan Korosec.
3271 And if you want to look the -- I'm going - 2 - I want to ask you, on the evening of September the 6th 3 when you first speak to Stan Korosec you're talking to 4 him on the telephone? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And you make reference further in the 7 call that if he wants to reach you the only way he'd be 8 able to get in touch with you is by cell phone. 9 Can you tell us prior to your logging on 10 to the communications system whether or not you could be 11 reached in any way through the Comm Centre? 12 A: No, we could not, we weren't logged 13 on. Our radios weren't turned on. 14 Q: Okay. And on page 2 of 12 of this 15 transcript you'll see at the top Stan Korosec says: 16 "Okay. When I've got you on the phone 17 can you talk or are you driving?" 18 And you say: 19 "Yeah, I'm driving. It's fine. We're 20 at Northville. We're going south on 79 21 right now." 22 Did you ever drive by the Army Base with 23 the gun trucks on the night of September the 6th? 24 A: No, we did not. 25 Q: Okay. And I know that you have given
3281 a lot of evidence about the logger and what happens with 2 the logger, but there were just a couple more things that 3 I wanted to ask you about that. 4 And first of all if we look at the 5 transcript of -- sorry, not the transcript but the notes 6 that you kept which are at Tab 6 of your book, there is a 7 portion on the second page of those notes and it's timed 8 at 22:30 hours: 9 "Tex to TAC 2." 10 And it talks about some observations made. 11 And then going further along over to the other page, 12 again at 22:44 there's a communication "CMU advancing 13 from Tex" and talk about a subject. 14 Was it your experience with an IAP when 15 there are a group of four (4) officers out, that all four 16 (4) officers would be communicating with the TOC or that 17 one (1) officer would primarily communicate with the TOC? 18 A: Normally that would be left for one 19 (1) officer to speak for the four (4) of them. 20 Q: Okay. And we heard from Inspector 21 Skinner that the senior person on that IAP was Ken Deane. 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And that therefore Ken Deane would be 24 primarily doing the communicating? 25 A: That's correct.
3291 Q: And so when Ken Deane communicates 2 something into the Command Post about observation seen, 3 do you have any way of knowing if they are observations 4 that he has personally seen or he is reporting to you 5 observations that others have seen? 6 A: No, I have no way of knowing that. 7 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say in terms 8 of the reports that are coming in about: 9 "Subject has a weapon, it appears to 10 be a rifle or a bow." 11 And later on: 12 "Stick and radio was carried." 13 That you wouldn't have known who have 14 made those observations versus who was communicating 15 them? 16 A: Not first hand, no I would not be 17 able to determine that. 18 Q: Okay. I just want to ask you a 19 couple more questions about your understanding of why TRU 20 was deployed and why the CMU was deployed. 21 Mr. Rosenthal read you some excerpts from 22 the evidence that Kent Skinner gave at trial -- at this 23 Inquiry. But he read you a very limited portion that 24 didn't include all of Inspector Skinner's evidence on the 25 point.
3301 So you may not have had a fair chance to 2 understand or think about the evidence that you were 3 being asked about. 4 In terms of your understanding of the 5 concern for the cottagers at the end of the road by the 6 sandy parking lot. 7 You have told us you understood that that 8 was a concern at the Command Post? 9 A: That's -- that's correct. 10 Q: Okay. And did you get the 11 understanding from then Inspector Carson or Sergeant 12 Skinner or both or somewhere else, do you recall? 13 A: I -- I don't recall specifically 14 where that came from. There was a fear and some 15 information that threats were made that cottages may be 16 taken. 17 Q: Okay. And in terms of the night of 18 September the 6th when the CMU was sent out on the road, 19 did you have a specific knowledge of the purpose of why 20 the CMU was sent out down the road? 21 A: I -- I had a belief why they were 22 sent down the road. And -- and -- 23 Q: Which was? 24 A: -- and that was to assist the Sierra 25 units to get into position because there were people
3311 either out looking for them or right on top of them so 2 they couldn't -- they couldn't move. 3 Q: Okay. And we know of the transcripts 4 both from your -- the log that you maintained and from 5 the ERT logger that the Sierra teams were not able to get 6 into position. 7 Was it your understanding at that point in 8 time that the CMU would be then carrying on to the end of 9 the road? 10 A: No. No, it wasn't. I -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I -- I did not have an understanding 13 how far down the road they would go. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I did not know. 16 Q: Okay. Did you have an understanding 17 if the Sierra teams weren't able to get into place, 18 whether or not the CMU would then have a role in terms of 19 looking at -- 20 A: I'm sorry, I -- I didn't hear. 21 Q: Did you have an understanding if the 22 Sierra teams couldn't get into place whether the CMU 23 would have a role in terms of looking after the cottagers 24 or protecting the cottagers or dealing with issues down 25 in that area?
3321 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: No. I -- I didn't have that 4 understanding. 5 Q: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And you talked a little bit about 10 what you heard on both the ERT, if I can call it that, 11 net and the TRU net up until the time you heard about a 12 car driving into officers and guns fired, and you've told 13 us at that point in time you than were told by Inspector 14 Skinner to go with the medic down the road. 15 During that period of time, were you able 16 to hear radio communications or hear what else was going 17 on, on the TRU net? 18 A: During the point when I left -- 19 Q: During -- 20 A: -- the TOC? 21 Q: -- the period -- yeah. 22 A: No. When I left the TOC, when I 23 stepped out of the truck, that would be the end of 24 hearing what was going on. There was a minute, ninety 25 (90) seconds that it would have taken to get my equipment
3331 on and then to start up the truck and -- and go down the 2 road. So there was a period of time that I was out of 3 communications. 4 Q: Okay. And when you got back in the 5 truck, were you paying attention to the communications 6 coming over the TRU net? 7 A: When I was in the truck, travelling 8 down the road towards the CMU, I was concentrating on 9 keeping the truck on the road. I had no headlights on. 10 I was focussed on driving the truck and then again, on 11 the way back to the command post, it's dark. 12 I have no lights on, I -- my main focus is 13 -- is keeping the truck on the road. 14 Q: Okay. You've talked a little bit 15 about Inspector Skinner's reaction when he found out that 16 the logger hadn't been taping. 17 Can you tell us your reaction? 18 A: Yeah. I felt sick. I -- it's a 19 feeling like you've let down -- you've let down the team, 20 that's -- that's evidence of what happened that night and 21 you just feel like you -- you didn't do your part to, you 22 know, to make sure that was there. 23 Q: And it would -- 24 A: It feels terrible. 25 Q: And would it have made any difference
3341 to you in terms of your responsibility what the evidence 2 was? 3 A: No, not at all. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Not at all. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Ms. Jones. 9 Mr. Worme...? 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Nothing in re- 11 examination, Commissioner, but simply to remind the 12 Witness that we will be having him subject to recall, of 13 course, subject to My Friends' comments once we have an 14 opportunity to review the tape and share with them our -- 15 our investigation on that matter. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the issue 17 of the tape. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's 20 fine, so subject to that, you're finished and I'd like to 21 thank you very much for coming and giving us your 22 evidence. 23 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, thank you. 24 25 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN)
3351 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. We'll now adjourn for the day and we'll be 3 back tomorrow morning. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 5 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday April 25th at 9:00 a.m. 6 7 --- Upon adjourning at 5:39 p.m. 8 9 10 11 12 Certified Correct, 13 14 15 16 17 18 _________________ 19 Carol Geehan, Ms. 20 21 22 23 24 25