11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE CHIEF JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 Hearing on Standing Only 23 24 April 23th, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Katherine Hensel ) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
31 --- Upon Commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Standing and Funding 4 Hearing is now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice 5 Linden, presiding, please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning Commissioner. 8 We have seven (7) applications to deal with today. The -- I 9 will speak to the seventh a little later, but we're going to 10 start with the Chippewa, Kettle and Stoney Point First 11 Nations. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 13 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: Good morning, 14 Commissioner Linden. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 16 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: If it pleases you, I'll 17 address you first and then I'll hand the mike over to Mr. 18 Henderson, who also appears for the Kettle and Stoney Point 19 First Nation. 20 I would like to, at the outset, indicate our 21 appreciation for you sitting today, as I understand that was 22 initially done to accommodate both Mr. Henderson and myself, 23 and we certainly thank you for that. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We thought we 25 were going to have one (1) application and then it became
41 three (3) and now it's seven (7), so -- 2 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: In any event, I would 3 also like to, on behalf of Chief Bressette, offer his 4 regrets, he was not able to attend today, as he has -- he is 5 out of town on First Nation business, and he wanted me to 6 give that to you also. 7 As is indicated in the materials before you, 8 the Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation is making 9 application for standing with respect to Parts I and II of 10 the Inquiry. You will find also that we are requesting 11 funding to aid our participation in that endeavour. 12 As Mr. Henderson will get into more detail, in 13 my respectful submission, the Kettle and Stoney Point First 14 Nation has an interest which is directly and substantially 15 affected by the subject matter of Part I, that being the 16 circumstances surrounding the death of Anthony Dudley George. 17 The Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation also 18 represents a distinct ascertainable interest in perspective 19 that is essential to the discharge of your mandate. That, in 20 my respectful submission, goes without saying. 21 By way of brief background, the Kettle and 22 Stoney Point First Nation is a small Ojibwe community, many 23 of its membership who are also of Potawatomi decent. Its 24 location is a short distance from here, down Highway 21 on 25 the shores of Lake Huron. Its membership consists of
51 approximately two thousand (2000) people with, in my 2 estimation -- to my understanding, about half residing on a 3 reserve. 4 It is a young community, with a significant 5 portion of the population being under the age of twenty-five 6 (25). And there is, which I believe is a significant fact, 7 only a hundred (100) people remaining who were alive in 1942, 8 the time at which the lands of Stoney Point which ultimately 9 became Camp Ipperwash, were expropriated from the First 10 Nation. Many of those hundred (100) people were young at the 11 time and, at this point, have no recollection of those 12 events. 13 The community is represented by a Chief in 14 Counsel. There are nine (9) counsellors, Peter Cloud, 15 Maurice Bressette, Maynard Sam George, Steve Wolf, Brian 16 Maneg (phonetic), Robert Bressette, David Henry, Ronald Spike 17 George and Evonne (phonetic) Bonnie Bressette and as you 18 know, Chief Thomas Bressette. 19 Present today is Peter Cloud, Ronald Spike 20 George, Maynard George and also sitting at counsel table is 21 Lorraine George, the Band Administrator. 22 Suffice it say, Commissioner Linden, through 23 the Commission's investigation it will be determined that 24 many of the witnesses you will hear from will in fact be 25 members of the Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation, and in
61 fact, First Nation leadership, both past and present. In 2 saving, except the family of the late Anthony Dudley George, 3 I would submit that no other group or individual was affected 4 by the events of September 1995 more deeply than the Kettle 5 and Stoney Point First Nations. 6 The effects of which are still felt today. 7 That being grief, fear, uncertainty in the unknown, 8 individual and unquantifiable impact upon the fam -- 9 countless families, children and elders which form the Band's 10 membership. 11 The circumstances surrounding, what I'll term, 12 the Ipperwash Issue in General, that being Stone Point prior 13 to 1942, its expropriation, the displacement of families 14 and subsequent relocation on Kettle Point, the Army Base, the 15 Provincial Park, the events of 1995, the negotiation to 16 secure the lands return and, indeed, ultimately this Inquiry 17 is the Kettle and Stoney Point First Nation. 18 More than any other event or sequence of 19 events, this has shaped and formed the Band itself, good or 20 bad. It has both brought people and families together and 21 has divided people and families. 22 This is what the Kettle and Stoney Point First 23 Nation leaders faces on a daily basis and this is what, 24 indeed, the Kettle and Stoney Point community faces on a 25 daily basis. And this is why the Kettle and Stoney Point
71 First Nation ought to be granted standing for each of Parts I 2 and Part II of the Inquiry. 3 It is also because of these extremely unique 4 communal interests that sets the First Nation apart and gives 5 it its distinct ascertainable interest and perspective. 6 Distinct even from any other First Nation which you -- which 7 may have requested standing from you. And, indeed, distinct 8 from any regional aboriginal organization of which the First 9 Nation is a member. 10 In both the direct sense, in reference to 11 Anthony Dudley George's death, and in the indirect sense, its 12 overall impact, the active and extensive involvement of the 13 First Nations is, in my respectful submission, critical. 14 And at this time, I will hand the mike over to 15 Mr. Henderson. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 17 much. 18 MR. BILL HENDERSON: Good morning, 19 Commissioner. Again, I express our thanks for the 20 accommodation you have given us today so that we could make 21 the presentation on behalf of the First Nation. 22 In going through out written submissions we 23 did not use the term "reopen old wounds". In some senses, 24 that might be an inappropriate term because it's not obvious 25 that many of those wounds have yet closed.
81 In another sense, we are dealing with the fact 2 of the Inquiry itself which, unintentionally perhaps and 3 perhaps inevitable, may bring forward from numbers of the 4 community conflicting versions of events which create 5 tensions and perhaps animosities as a result of that. 6 We have the possibility of old animosities 7 being rekindled, the embers being fanned, and we have the 8 possibility which has already manifested itself of 9 information being brought forward which is further disturbing 10 to the community. 11 And I refer, of course, to the January 12 incident where some tape recordings -- I won't dwell upon the 13 details. But you're well aware of those, Commissioner, and 14 if there are more recordings data, information of that nature 15 coming forward, these are simply further indignities that the 16 community has to deal with. 17 Now, in saying these things, I do not assume 18 the worst. I have read the transcripts of the past few days. 19 I've read your opening remarks, sir. I've read the 20 presentations that have been made and the wise words of the 21 Elder who commenced these proceedings. 22 We all hope that this will result in truth, 23 healing and a measure of justice not only for the family of 24 Mr. Anthony Dudley George but also for the community. 25 And this community will be put under a
91 microscope in the course of these proceedings. There are 2 other interests that will be similarly scrutinized but the 3 community is two thousand (2,000) people. It has its 4 diversity. It has its strengths. 5 The First Nation is particularly concerned 6 that the Inquiry not become or that the recommendations, with 7 great respect, not manifest an exercise in victimology. You 8 will hear that while there is a strong young population in 9 the community, there is an older community. And it has a 10 proud history and an ancient connection to this territory, 11 including lands that you have visited and that you will be 12 visiting again. 13 The thousand indignities that you will hear 14 of, and many of these are regrettably at the hands of 15 government agencies, have caused trauma, they have had 16 unfortunate results. They have had tragic results. 17 But you will find, at the end of the day, a 18 community that is strong, that is resilient, that is proud 19 and that is growing in a good way. That does not mean that 20 there are not individual traumas that can be healed. It does 21 not mean that some individuals have not suffered and are 22 suffering more than others. Does not mean that there is not 23 more that does need to be done and reconciliation that needs 24 to be effective. 25 At the end of the day, I hope, Commissioner,
101 that we all will see a measure of justice done to this 2 community. 3 In presenting the First Nation's case for 4 standing and for the activities that it intends to conduct, 5 the First Nation's interest and the First Nation's 6 involvement with this Commission is not limited to the 7 scrutiny of the mandate, although certainly it is intimately 8 and directly connected to both -- both phases of the Inquiry 9 or both stages of the mandate or both aspects of the mandate. 10 Beyond that, to the extent that the community 11 comes under a microscope and the other factors which I 12 referred to earlier do come forward, it is a community that 13 has to deal with them. 14 So that included in the budget presentation is 15 a modest proposal for a community task force to react to 16 these events and to develop the resources to react to these 17 as they occur, including a public relations component. 18 And that, of course, is a natural function of 19 the fact that whenever something that appears to be exciting, 20 and there will be those days like that, comes forward as a 21 result of the Inquiry, it is natural for journalists and 22 others to contact the Chief, members of Council, the 23 administration of the First Nation for their reaction. 24 So it is a necessary and important part that 25 that be coordinated and that that be effective, that it be
111 coherent and, in the long run, it assists the Inquiry. 2 We did not provide the musical accompaniment, 3 Commissioner. 4 In -- with respect to counsel fees, we have 5 basically referred to the Ministry of the Attorney General 6 Guidelines for Counsel Fees, in my own case, have applied 7 that as set out. 8 In the case of my co-counsel, Mr. George, we 9 have suggested a fee appropriate to him that would be 10 slightly higher than the guideline would suggest and we 11 respectfully ask, Commissioner, that you recommend that the 12 higher rate be approved with respect to Mr. George. 13 Not only because of his unique qualifications 14 to contribute to his community and to this Inquiry in this 15 way during the course of this Inquiry but also to recognize 16 the fact that this is an historical event in the history of 17 the community arising from misfortune and looking to a better 18 future. 19 And that for, I hope, at least a half a 20 century to come, Mr. George will be the most vital living 21 witness, uniquely qualified as a community resource with 22 respect to this Inquiry. 23 I've already referred to again the modest 24 proposal for the Task Force. I'm sure that Ms. George who 25 was -- Ms. Lorraine George is here this morning. She is the
121 administrator of the First Nation, I'm sure she would be 2 happy to answer any questions you might have about that. 3 I think I've laid the foundation for the need 4 for it and, of course, the fact that the Task Force and its 5 work may not end with the delivery of the report and I'll 6 come back to that in a moment. 7 We have, I think, unlike most of the 8 applicants included an administration fee for the First 9 Nation with respect to the funding and the administration of 10 the funding and we have provided, as the Commission has 11 suggested, the actual financial bylaw of the First Nation 12 under which these funds, as approved, would be administered. 13 In the course of the Inquiry, there are some 14 things where we have suggested that there might be 15 supplemental budgets. Of course, we have tried to err on the 16 high side with respect to counsel time and hearing time, not 17 knowing, at this point of course, how many actual days of 18 hearing will be involved or how long each mandate will take. 19 So we have estimated, obviously. If -- if we 20 have over-estimated, the actual budget will be the actual 21 time. If that varies there will be a supplemental 22 submission. We have indicated there would be a supplemental 23 submission in respect of the delivery of the report and the 24 impact on the community after the Inquiry. 25 We have assumed that the Inquiry, in the
131 course of dealing with what, I believe Mr. Nash described as 2 the before, the happening and the after, may conduct an 3 impact study with respect to the larger community here. 4 We do not know if that is in the works. If it 5 is not, there may be a submission to you, sir, by -- by way 6 of another supplemental budget -- budgetary submissions so, 7 that the First Nation can conduct that study and give the -- 8 give you, sir, the -- the benefit of that information. 9 And in the support of the -- the submission 10 with respect to the aftermath, it is in the nature of a 11 Commission of Inquiry that its work is done, its report is 12 delivered, the staff which you have so skilfully assembled 13 fold their tents and move on to their other lives and other 14 professional responsibilities and, indeed, you, sir, also go 15 on to the other important duties which you continue to hold. 16 It is not usual that anyone is left to 17 implement the recommendations of an Inquiry. But to the 18 extent that there is specific healing, possibilities of 19 justice, recommendations that will be of long and enduring 20 benefit to the community, it will fall to the First Nation 21 and it's -- to its Chief and Council to take up those 22 recommendations and to attempt to implement them. 23 So, we take a long view back and we take a 24 long view forward, sir, and I hope you appreciate the scope 25 of what -- what we have described and the intent of the First
141 Nation in participating in this Inquiry and our very good 2 wishes for its success. 3 And I have indicated that Ms. George is 4 available to answer any questions you may have about the 5 budget. I can assure you, we also included some financial 6 statements. Through good administration there have been 7 surpluses for several years. 8 For the large -- for the most part, I am 9 informed, the surplus which they reflect are funds that came 10 by way of Casino Rama and that -- that agreement which -- 11 from which all First Nations in Ontario derive some benefit; 12 there are rules attached to those funds. 13 And those funds would not contemplate the 14 payment of fees for counsel or for any other activities of 15 this type of legal nature. And, again, if -- if you require 16 further information about that you may ask now or ask that we 17 provide it later. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I've said 19 to other applicants that the Commission doesn't grant funds 20 directly. I'm sure you -- 21 MR. BILL HENDERSON: Well, aware of that, 22 sir. Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- appreciate 24 that. We make a recommendation to the Government and they 25 act on it or not as they please and they do have their own
151 guidelines, some of which you have, regarding counsel fees 2 and other -- other expenses that they are prepared to 3 approve. 4 So, ours is simply a recommendation to the 5 Government. And I -- I do notice that you've provided a 6 wealth of information, material and detail. That's very, 7 very helpful. I expect that the parties who are granted 8 standing, there will have to be some continuing ongoing 9 discussion regarding funding if -- if its to be recommended, 10 exactly how it might -- how it might work. 11 You've made a rather extensive application in 12 a sense that you've projected throughout the next few months, 13 into the next year. At this point none of us can be accurate 14 regarding the direction of the Commission, how long it will 15 take, how many days of hearings and so on. 16 So, we'll all have to see that as we go 17 forward. But thank you, very, very much. It's been a very 18 complete submission. Thank you very much. 19 MR. BILL HENDERSON: Thank you, Commissioner. 20 With respect to the Government guidelines and the 21 contingencies available here, they were, we hope, part of -- 22 implied if not expressly stated in the -- in the submission. 23 I believe, when travel expenses and that sort of thing, we 24 may have referred to the Federal Treasury Board guidelines 25 which the First Nation most commonly applies rather than the
161 provincial ones. But there wouldn't be much variance. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 3 much. 4 MR. BILL HENDERSON: Thank you, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll now move on 6 to the -- the second application that we expected to have 7 today which is on behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario and I 8 believe Mr. Horton is here to speak on behalf of the Chiefs 9 of Ontario. 10 Good morning, Mr. Horton. 11 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Thank you, Your Honour 12 and my co-counsel, Kathleen Lickers, is with me as well. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 14 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Your Honour, as you know 15 the Chiefs of Ontario is seeking full standing as a part for 16 both Parts I and II of the Inquiry, as well as funding to 17 facilitate its full participation in both parts of the 18 Inquiry. You have our material and I'm only going to add a 19 few comments for those present who may not have had an 20 opportunity to go through it. 21 The Chiefs of Ontario is the umbrella 22 organization for all status Indian communities in Ontario. 23 It's mandate is to represent the interests of all Ontario's 24 one hundred and thirty-four (134) First Nations on issues of 25 broad significance and to provide a unified voice on these
171 issues. 2 The Chiefs of Ontario has been widely 3 recognized by the Courts as being the primary voice of First 4 Nations in Ontario and as detailed in our material, on 5 numerous occasions has been granted intervenor status or 6 standing to perform that very function. 7 The Chiefs of Ontario meet at least once a 8 year at an annual all-Ontario Chiefs conference and quite 9 often there are special assemblies convened for particular 10 matters and this provides a unique forum and opportunity for 11 the development of consensus views among First Nations, the 12 discussion of issues of common interest and the development 13 of official positions that are then carried forward with 14 governments. 15 The Chiefs of Ontario has taken an active 16 interest in this particular case and the events surrounding 17 the death of Dudley George from the early stages and, as is 18 detailed in my material, has passed several resolutions on 19 this matter, specifically calling for the holding of this 20 Inquiry. 21 And so the Chiefs of Ontario is very pleased 22 indeed that we have reached that point where the Inquiry is 23 proceeding with all the benefits that are expected to flow 24 from it. In addition, the Chiefs of Ontario have voiced 25 consistent support for the George family in the vindication
181 and their pursuit for the vindication of their rights. 2 The events at issue, in Part I of this Inquiry 3 raise serious questions for First Nations communities 4 regarding the relationship between First Nations peoples and 5 provincial policing authorities, as well as the relationship 6 with the Provincial Government. 7 The Inquiry is going to be required to 8 consider issues that are of great importance; the history of 9 the First Nations people in the region, the constitutional 10 status of First Nations, the historical relationship between 11 Ontario's First Nations and the Provincial Government. 12 As such, this Inquiry provides a unique and 13 historic opportunity to focus public attention on key issues 14 relating to First Nations and provide all Canadians with a 15 better understanding of the issues that are faced by First 16 Nations as illustrated by these key events. 17 There are also very serious consequences that 18 have flowed from the death of Dudley George and the events 19 that led to that; the potential damage to the relationship 20 between First Nations peoples and Ontario's political 21 institutions. Chiefs of Ontario believe that they have a 22 unique role to play in assisting the Inquiry and fulfilling 23 its mandate to thoroughly canvass the circumstances and 24 events in a way that is sensitive to and equally or more 25 importantly, responsive to the concerns of First Nations and
191 to help to restore confidence in the institutions of the 2 Province. 3 Chiefs believe that they can bring valuable 4 and unique resources to bear in terms of providing a -- an 5 interface between the Inquiry and First Nations as a whole in 6 the Province. 7 As you know, the Chiefs of Ontario, in 8 addition to their annual meetings, operate through what is 9 known as the Political Confederacy, that is a -- an executive 10 body that operates throughout the year, with monthly meetings 11 -- on it serve leaders of all of the Provincial Territorial 12 organizations, the Grand Chiefs throughout Ontario as well as 13 representatives of other segments of the First Nations 14 community. 15 And the Political Confederacy has struck a 16 Steering Committee, to specifically instruct counsel with 17 respect to this matter, if standing is granted. 18 As well, of course, the Chiefs have a long and 19 very well respected history of stewardship with respect to 20 funds that are made available to the Chiefs of Ontario to 21 fulfill various mandates that they have in the First Nation 22 community; and that degree of responsibility will also be 23 brought to bear with any funds that are made available for 24 their participation in this Inquiry and we provided some 25 information on how those funds would be managed.
201 The Chiefs of Ontario does not have ear-marked 2 funds to participate in this Inquiry. All of its funding is 3 -- there is some core funding -- and Ms. Lickers is going to 4 address that if you have a specific question, but essentially 5 it does not operate on any sort of surplus and specific 6 funding is required for -- on a program basis. 7 On the other hand, the very fact of the Chiefs 8 of Ontario, the manner in which it is organized and the 9 manner in which it operates, will provide the Inquiry with 10 tremendous resources and my submission, just in terms of 11 being able to communicate and get feedback from the First 12 Nations as a whole. 13 Those were all the submissions that I had 14 Commissioner, subject to any questions that you may have. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 16 kindly. 17 A couple of questions regarding funding. Just 18 a couple of questions, should I ask them of Ms. Lickers. 19 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Yes, please. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just 21 curious, you indicated that there are -- that there's no -- 22 no core funding, is there any -- any funding at all that 23 comes on a regular basis from the Federal Government for the 24 -- for the Chiefs? 25 MS. KATHLEEN LICKERS: The Chiefs of
211 Ontario's office does receive a little over sixty thousand 2 dollars ($60,000) in core funding from the Department of 3 Indian Affairs. The majority of their funding comes the 4 Province of Ontario, which is specifically directed to issues 5 and programs. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Through 7 individual Band counsels? Does any come directly to the 8 association? 9 MS. KATHLEEN LICKERS: It comes directly to 10 the association; and they do not -- as they have not for the 11 past number of years and certainly this most recent fiscal 12 year ever operated in a surplus. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's lot of 14 detailed information regarding your funding application which 15 we'll have to carefully consider, but there -- there isn't 16 any information regarding the financial structure of the 17 Chiefs Organization. 18 Is there anything like that available? 19 MS. KATHLEEN LICKERS: Yes there is. I can 20 certainly provide that information to you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would be 22 helpful if you could do that, perhaps in due course. 23 Thank you very kindly, other than that your 24 submission is quite comprehensive and complete, thank you 25 very much.
221 MS. KATHLEEN LICKERS: Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We now have, I 6 believe, Mr. Runciman and that's his piece? 7 MS. NANCY SPIES: Good morning, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 10 good morning. 11 MS. NANCY SPIES: I'd like to introduce my 12 colleague, Ms. Alice Mrozek as well, who will be joining me 13 as counsel, if we are granted standing. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 15 MS. NANCY SPIES: I trust you've had an 16 opportunity to read our application by letter, dated April 17 7th and -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have. 19 MS. NANCY SPIES: -- as you'll have seen, Mr. 20 Runciman is seeking full standing with respect to both Parts 21 I and II of the Inquiry. At the time of the events in 22 question, Mr. Runciman was Solicitor General for Ontario and 23 Minister of Correctional Services. 24 He held that cabinet position from June of 25 1995 until June of 1999 and he continues to hold public
231 office as a Member of Provincial Parliament in the -- for the 2 riding of Leeds Grenville. In fact, he's been an MPP, I 3 understand, since 1981. 4 He was an individual defendant in the civil 5 action brought by the George family that I -- I know that you 6 are aware of. And, as you know, that action was dismissed 7 last October. There was never any hearing on the merits. 8 Mr. Runciman denied the allegations in that 9 action that, in his role as Solicitor General, he directed in 10 some way the OPP as to how they should deal with the protest 11 in the Park and he looks forward to the opportunity to give 12 evidence to clarify his role in the matter. 13 In my submission, he clearly has an interest 14 that will be directly and substantially affected by the 15 subject matter of Part I of the Inquiry. 16 And, in my respectful submission, he ought to 17 be given a full opportunity to participate so that he can 18 properly respond to the issues that I know that you will be 19 considering. 20 As for Part II, as Solicitor General, Mr. 21 Runciman had certain responsibilities for police services 22 generally pursuant to the Police Services Act and I expect 23 that the role of Solicitor General and government policies of 24 the day at the times in issue will be an important facet of 25 the review that you will undertake in Part II which, I
241 understand, will look at policy issues and develop 2 recommendations to avoid a similar situation in the future. 3 And so, in that regard as well, it's my 4 submission that Mr. Runciman has a substantial interest in 5 that aspect of the Inquiry and, as well, a distinct and 6 ascertainable interest in perspectives that he will be able 7 to bring to assist you in fulfilling your mandate. 8 And so for those reasons, sir, it's my 9 submission that he clearly meets the test for Standing and I 10 ask that full Standing be granted for both Parts I and II of 11 the Inquiry. 12 So subject to any questions that you have, 13 those are my submissions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very, 15 very much. 16 MS. NANCY SPIES: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's very 18 helpful. Thank you very much. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I may, for 20 the benefit of this who weren't here on Tuesday, simply 21 remind everyone that, at the end of the day, you'll be 22 reserving -- you're reserving your decisions and it'll be 23 released in due course. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We should have 25 reminded everybody that that's our -- that's our plan.
251 Everybody -- we announced that at the outset, that we'll be 2 making the decisions on both standing and funding and 3 advising everyone and posting the decision on the website 4 just as soon as we can, within the next week or two we hope. 5 Now, where are we up to now? We're up to -- 6 the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Services Board. 7 MS. DANALYN MACKINNON: Yes. Thank you. My 8 name is Danalyn MacKinnon. I'm a partner at Beamish 9 MacKinnon. Good morning, Mr. Commissioner. And good morning 10 to the Elders here and members of the public. 11 I'd like to introduce Mr. Wally McKay who is 12 with me. Mr. McKay is a board member of the Nishnawbe-Aski 13 Police Service. He has -- he's also a member of the Satchko 14 (phonetic) Lake First Nation in northwestern Ontario. He's 15 spent thirty (30) years in aboriginal affairs in various 16 capacities including he was the Former Grand Chief of 17 Nishnawbe-Aski Nation and the former Regional Chief for 18 Ontario. 19 And he has -- he has the Chair of the Ontario 20 First Nation Police Commission for the last ten (10) years. 21 And a former advisor to the National Chief of the Assembly of 22 First Nations on Federal Policing Policy. 23 We've come thousands of kilometres to make 24 this presentation to you, Mr. Commissioner, and the 25 Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service is the largest First Nation
261 Police Service in Ontario. It provides policing services to 2 over fifty (50) First Nations in remote northern Ontario 3 through thirty-four (34) detachments. 4 It's an area that covers almost two-thirds of 5 the province from the Manitoba to the Quebec borders. It's 6 the most -- it operates under the most autonomous policing 7 agreement in Canada. It employs over a hundred and ten (110) 8 constables and twenty-six (26) civilians. 9 We have -- are making application under both 10 Parts I and II of -- of the Royal Commission. Under Part I, 11 we're asking for a limited standing to participate only as 12 the relevant parts of that evidence may come forward. 13 The question as to why we have an interest and 14 why we're here, certainly at the time of the dramatic events 15 that led to the death of Anthony Dudley George, there were 16 two (2) factors that played into the -- the situation. 17 One (1) is policing and the nature of the 18 policing at the time, and the other was the -- what were the 19 interests of the First Nation people? 20 As you're aware, Mr. Commissioner, the First 21 Nations' people of this country have always had a unique 22 place in Canada, not only because of their culture and 23 language but they also have a different world view and a 24 different view of how to approach conflict situations. They 25 always have an interest in their land.
271 From a policing perspective, we understand 2 that the police have obligations, they have duties, protocols 3 and systems that the public requires them to carry. 4 What is unique about the application by the 5 Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service is that we believe that we can 6 represent aboriginal policing, which incorporates both those 7 views. We understand how policing works and we also 8 understand the needs of First Nation people. 9 As a First Nation organization, we care about 10 what happened at Ipperwash and also NAPS is a successful 11 policing organization in Canada. It is a success story as 12 far as adopting a culture and the needs of the First Nation 13 community into a policing regime. 14 We believe that we can contribute meaningfully 15 to this Commission with the kind of expertise that our 16 organization has. 17 Policing and First Nation policing is what we 18 do best. We have that perspective that allows us to look at 19 the whole picture. And we also have the neutrality to be 20 able to provide the Commission with meaningful advice and 21 comments in regard to what may or may not have happened at -- 22 at the time of the critical events. 23 The organization has also developed approaches 24 and expertise that are unique in Canada and that is because 25 of the -- the background of the organization. We're willing
281 to share and show how those can be applied. In other words, 2 we can provide an aboriginal policing perspective to this 3 Commission. 4 In regard to our applications for standing in 5 Part I, as I indicated we're looking for a narrow, limited 6 standing. What we want to do is assist the Commission by 7 bringing an aboriginal policing perspective to the Inquiry. 8 The question is, would it have been different 9 if the Aboriginal Police Service was involved? And we 10 understand that no other Aboriginal Police Service has 11 requested standing in Part I, but if they do, or have, we're 12 willing to work cooperatively with them. 13 We do not -- we're not a vested party in the 14 actual facts of what occurred in regard to the death of Mr. 15 George, but we do think that we can bring a different 16 perspective to police conduct and management of what 17 happened. 18 We would anticipate that we would be able to 19 cross-examine the police officers and the commanders with 20 respect to police practices for management of aboriginal 21 protests. Could it have been done differently? Would it 22 have been different with a different type of police service? 23 We work cooperatively with other police 24 services. I can indicate that there is a protocol that we 25 work under with the OPP and we have experienced both
291 collaboration and some conflict in regard to those 2 agreements, but it is something that we hae worked on over a 3 period of time. 4 We also bring to the Inquiry, the perspective 5 of two (2) key players in aboriginal policing to assist the 6 Commission and one is Mr. McKay that I've spoken of already. 7 The other one is our Chief of Police, Wes Looloff (phonetic). 8 He's an Ojibwe member of the Long Lake Band and he worked for 9 the RCMP for many years. 10 He has been the NAPS division commander from 11 '94 to '98 and he has been the Chief of Police for NAPS since 12 1998. NAPS has expanded to take over twice the area that it 13 had originally. He is also the President of the Canadian 14 Association of First Nation Chiefs of Police. And he's a 15 board member on the same association. 16 He is also the board member for the Canadian 17 Association of Chiefs of Police representing aboriginal 18 police services. So, we bring with us to that part that type 19 of expertise to analyse the policing that occurred on that 20 occasion. 21 In regard to Part II, we're requesting full 22 standing to participate in Part II and we understand that the 23 Nishnawbe Police Service is also requesting the same. We 24 believe that if both had standing that the Inquiry would have 25 the benefit of a variety of different experiences and points
301 of view in aboriginal policing and we will cooperate with 2 them in regard to Part II. 3 What perspective can we bring to Part II? 4 Could the use of aboriginal policing services help to prevent 5 incidents such as Ipperwash? What do aboriginal policing 6 services need to be able to effectively deal with situations 7 such as Ipperwash? What are the different models for First 8 Nation policing and is there a need for a legislative 9 framework to support First Nation policing and suggestions of 10 what is needed? 11 And we also have a variety of experts within 12 our organization and advisors and facilitators who can assist 13 the Commission. 14 I can indicate, in regard to the funding 15 issue, that the organization is funded by the Federal and 16 Provincial Governments but all of our NAPS budget is used for 17 front line policing. If you can -- all of it is used for 18 that. Also, because we have such distances to cover in order 19 to manage such a large geography that there are very limited 20 resources for any other type of activities. 21 Part of the understanding was that we would 22 have to be successful in obtaining that -- the standing and 23 the financial assistance in order to participate. This is -- 24 attending even here today is an expense for the organization. 25 The north already suffers from a lack of
311 services and the organization does not want to divert from 2 the front line work that they are doing. They're looking for 3 funds to pay for legal counsel to represent them at the 4 hearings and I could just speak about that. 5 Catherine Beamish is the lead counsel. She 6 was unable to be here today. But she has been practising 7 since 1978 and has her degree from Queen's University and 8 Osgoode Hall. She's been involved in policing negotiations 9 since the outset in regard to the Nishnawbe-Aski Police 10 Service. 11 She's the Chief Negotiator for the 12 Nishnawbe-Aski Nation on policing and she's been a leader in 13 all areas of the aboriginal law bar but particularly 14 self-government and policing and corporate issues. She would 15 be the counsel on this. 16 Subject to any questions that you have, Mr. 17 Commissioner, we believe that we can bring something unique 18 to the Commission. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 20 much. No, I have no questions. Thank you, very much. Thank 21 you. 22 MS. DANALYN MACKINNON: Thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
321 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The next item, 2 Commissioner, is the Aboriginal plea -- People's Council of 3 Toronto and speaking to that will be Mr. Steven Reynolds. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, Mr. 5 Reynolds. 6 MR. STEPHEN REYNOLDS: Good morning. Thank 7 you, Commissioner. I would also like to extend my thanks and 8 appreciation to the family N'gwich (phonetic) for allowing us 9 to come to your territory today to make these submissions and 10 I'd also like to thank the Commission for its indulgent in 11 the mixup that we had in terms of submitting our application 12 today. 13 What we have done is we've outlined in a 14 submission why we feel we should have standing both for Part 15 I and Part II. 16 Very briefly, the Aboriginal People's Council 17 of Toronto is a grassroots organization of approximately a 18 thousand active members but it also, in the Greater Toronto 19 Area, represents approximately sixty thousand (60,000) urban 20 Aboriginal peoples and that's the perspective we're bringing 21 to the Inquiry today and why we are requesting funding. 22 Now, these urban Aboriginal people, as we 23 know, face very unique and different circumstances. They 24 have their own interests and they have interests which 25 incidentally have a relationship to the happenings at
331 Ipperwash. 2 And I've outlined very generally the -- the 3 nature and the scope of the types of issues we'd like to 4 address in our submission but really, what we need to do is 5 we need to look at what this organization is and essentially, 6 it's a grassroots organization. 7 It's an unencumbered organization. It 8 represents the grassroots Aboriginal people within the 9 metropolitan Toronto and outlying areas. 10 These are different than Band Councils, 11 they're different than the police association. It -- it's 12 different than anybody. 13 And my experience in dealing with the 14 grassroots urban Aboriginal constituency, they bring a very 15 unique perspective to these issues. They are the ones that 16 are on the front lines dealing with the police every single 17 day. They are the ones that are interacting with the broad 18 urban community and the non-First Nation community. 19 They are the ones that have force and 20 influence and mobilize to react, if you will, and to advocate 21 for First Nations people in an urban setting. 22 So in that context, we bring a very unique 23 non-institutionalized, non-encumbered perspective from a pure 24 urban Aboriginal perspective. We are not incorporated. We 25 have no ties to the Canadian state. We have no ties to the
341 corporate commercial mainstream. We are purely Aboriginal in 2 the sense that there are urban Aboriginal constituents that 3 we represent. 4 And in our submission, we've outlined a number 5 of issues that we feel we should be entitled to participate 6 in with respect to Part I. 7 And these are technical issues which deal 8 with the use of force by the police officers, issues 9 pertaining to incident command, chain of command, interest 10 pertaining to the use of non-lethal force and all of the 11 technical components that arise in the nature of urban 12 situations such as containment situations, such as a 13 barricade situations, such as protest situations and the 14 monitoring of those. 15 These are the types of hard questions that we 16 would like to bring to the Commission and ask in Part I 17 because these questions have to be asked. 18 About five (5) years ago I was counsel to an 19 inquest in Ottawa in the shooting of an Aboriginal person, 20 Troy Emerson. It was a five (5) week coroner's inquest and a 21 lot of similarities existed in that situation that we have in 22 Ipperwash. 23 There's a series of recommendations which were 24 published by the coroner and I would recommend, if you 25 haven't already looked at them, that the Commission access
351 that from Dr. Pichard (phonetic), the regional coroner. 2 They're very helpful. 3 There's a list of recommendations from a jury 4 that looked at these particular issues and interestingly 5 enough, very few of them have been implemented today. 6 For Part II, again my submission is -- is that 7 Part I -- Part II will only be as good as Part I can 8 troubleshoot the facts and will only be as good as the very 9 hard necessary questions have to be asked. 10 And having said that, when we move into Part 11 II, we believe we can provide again, the unique perspective 12 in terms of analysing, canvassing, bringing together the 13 aboriginal community -- urban aboriginal community, to 14 address the issues that pertain to them. 15 To meet, to discuss, to publish, to inquire; 16 and these are the types of issues that we would like to bring 17 with respect to Part II and that's why we're requesting 18 standing in that context. 19 Again, on page four (4), I've listed a number 20 of -- of points that pertain to the urban aboriginal 21 component. Retaining of experts, elders, distinguished 22 leaders to provide input onto policing issues, urban 23 relationships with police. 24 Again, the issues that I've discussed that 25 relate to Part I, incident command, containment, less than
361 lethal force, the relationship -- the political relationship 2 between the State and the First Nations community in general 3 and the urban First Nations community in general. 4 And again, in terms of funding, we are a grass 5 roots organization. We have no money. The -- counsel is -- 6 it's -- it's existence depends upon the donations of its 7 members and the good will of the community in terms of 8 bringing itself together and mobilizing to respond to issues. 9 And it has a track record, as I've indicated 10 in the submission. It has addressed certain issues and it 11 has participated in policing issues in Toronto in the past. 12 We require funding in order to have counsel 13 attend to cross-examine the witnesses, to ask the hard 14 questions, as I've indicated. We will also require funding 15 to provide the institutional structures that one would 16 require for the -- the -- the conduct of the Part I 17 submissions as well as Part II. 18 Now I haven't provided a detailed analysis and 19 I'm mindful of your comments this morning and having been 20 through a very similar process, I understand what it requires 21 to make submissions on funding and knowing what the time 22 frames are, things like that. 23 So you don't have a -- a specific funding 24 submission. Again, any funding requirements would be 25 pursuant to the guidelines in the Province of Ontario.
371 I'd like to close by simply saying that we've 2 had several barricaded situations in this country. I'm 3 involved in one at Oka, Quebec with the Kanasetake First 4 Nation. 5 We have not learned from those situations and 6 certainly this particular situation, this tragedy at 7 Ipperwash has not learned from the experiences; and it's 8 clear that when you bring the force in, you are going to get 9 a reaction. 10 First Nation people want to protect their 11 territory. They want to advocate their rights. 12 And having said that, those are our 13 submissions, if you have any questions --. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there -- is 15 there any relationship between your organization and the -- 16 and the Aboriginal Legal Services Clinic? 17 MR. STEPHEN REYNOLDS: That -- that's a very 18 good question and yes, what we are -- we are currently 19 talking to them Commissioner and in -- indeed I'd like to 20 emphasize that, in terms of rationalizing the -- the process, 21 we are more than willing to do that, we are more than willing 22 to -- to communicate with them. 23 Mr. Obonsiwin (phonetic), actually regrets 24 that he can't be here today, but he has been actively 25 discussing these issues with Aboriginal Legal Services and we
381 do intend to communicate more thoroughly with them to see if 2 we can rationalize something. Now that may require further 3 submission to you and I think we'd be prepared to do that. I 4 don't know. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There may be 6 some need for the dialogue -- 7 MR. STEPHEN REYNOLDS: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To go forward, 9 but I -- I do understand that some of the -- some of the 10 items that you indicated are almost identical to what the 11 Aboriginal Legal Services Clinic has indicated. So there 12 might be some room for some collaboration. 13 MR. STEPHEN REYNOLDS: Yes, and exactly, and 14 if standing is granted for Part I, trade offs in terms of 15 days, witnesses -- we're more than prepared to look at that 16 and to cooperate fully with the Commission and with the other 17 parties to this. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 19 kindly. 20 MR. STEPHEN REYNOLDS: Thank you very much. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 22 much. 23 I think we've come to the last -- no is there 24 another application? I know we have Mr. Hamelengwa who -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes.
391 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is on our list. 2 But is there -- is there any others, is this the last one 3 (1)? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: This is the last one (1) 5 and I will speak to the other one (1) that we had. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh right, okay 7 that's fine. 8 Mr. Hamelengwa, good morning Sir. You were 9 originally on our list for the other day, I guess it was 10 Wednesday. 11 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 13 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Thank you Mr. 14 Commissioner. I -- I thank also the elders and the Mr. 15 Millar and I appreciate your giving us an opportunity to come 16 today instead of yesterday. 17 What happened yesterday, it is stuff of 18 comedy, that's why I didn't appear. A comic could launch -- 19 launch a career out of what happened to me yesterday. But 20 that's not for today. 21 This is not my normal voice. I have a 22 terrible cold. In fact, it took a gargant -- gargantuan 23 effort to make it today. Having said that, I want to start 24 by saying that I have compiled a proper record, rather than 25 the faxed copy. I've given Mr. Millar, just one though, and
401 that one is numbered. Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have a 3 copy? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, there's only one. 5 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Yeah, I just made 6 one -- one. That one is numbered. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this similar 8 to the one that we already have because we do have your 9 material? 10 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Well, I added a 11 few more materials. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. That's 13 fine. 14 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Yes, yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want to 16 hold on to this? 17 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Mr. Commissioner-- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which should I 19 look at, the material we have or this one or both? 20 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: They are really 21 more or less the same, except that what I have given you is 22 numbered -- the pages are numbered. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 24 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Yes, yes -- but it 25 is essentially the same. People may be wondering what a
411 black man is doing in northern -- northern Ontario. You 2 shouldn't wonder at all. No one should wonder because the 3 concerns of aboriginal peoples are the same as the concerns 4 of African-Canadians and the concerns of all Canadians. 5 In 1999, well before the Commission of Inquiry 6 was called, I wrote an article for a community newspaper; 7 it's at page 66, Mr. Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 9 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Page 66. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 11 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMELENGWA: Yes. There I 12 stated; the last paragraph on the left: 13 "An example of allegations of governmental 14 misconduct is the case of the Ipperwash 15 shooting that resulted in the death of 16 Dudley George, a native Canadian in 17 northern Ontario in 1995. The allegation 18 is that the confrontation between the 19 police and the native band and the 20 resulting shooting was fermented directly, 21 from the Premier's office. It is also 22 alleged that the misconduct it deals with 23 attempted to cover up, by the Government 24 exactly what transpired, before and after 25 the shooting. Were documents destroyed?
421 What was the chain of command? E-T-C, E-T- 2 C." 3 So, it's not that when I saw the advertisement 4 that a Commission of Inquiry had been convoked that I began 5 interested in the issue of Ipperwash. I have always been 6 interested as the evidence, by that article that I wrote in 7 1999, way before anyone talked about the convoktion 8 (phonetic) of this -- this Inquiry. 9 And before that, as a law student, I wrote an 10 article in the Canadian Native Law Reporter comparing the 11 situation of aboriginals in Australia and in Canada. Before 12 that, I attended a conference in Australia where I wrote 13 about the need for civilian control of police powers in 14 Canada. 15 There is perhaps no individual practising 16 lawyer in the minority community that has been as concerned 17 about policing issues and the administration of justice and 18 the relationship between the police and minorities and the 19 impact of the law on minorities than I have. 20 Now, to prove that, I just want to show some 21 of the writings I have done. In 1996 I was teaching a course 22 on police law at a school that I had founded called "Nelson 23 Mandela Academy of Applied Legal Studies". I compiled a book 24 -- this is the book I compiled, it's called, "Police Law". 25 I put together all newspapers articles that
431 had been written in 1995 and 1996 on police and they are all 2 compiled here. I also put together various Commissions of 3 Inquiry and their recommendations on policing issues, 4 including some of the -- for example, the Stephen Lewis study 5 is in this book. 6 A study done in Ottawa as a result of the 7 shooting at -- at 22 Gord Street in Ottawa by -- the report 8 is done by Glenda Simms (phonetic), is in this book. 9 And I have another volume of newspaper 10 articles and other studies that I didn't bring here today, 11 compiled. This is way before I even knew that I would apply 12 to -- to come here. 13 I have written two (2) volumes of articles, 14 they are all compiled on the administration of justice in 15 Canada, police issues, the need to appoint minorities, 16 including native minorities, to the Supreme Court of Canada 17 and other levels of court. 18 All these articles have been published, 19 either in Law Times for the Defence, Canadian Lawyer, the 20 Globe and Mail, Toronto Star and other newspapers. 21 So it's not that I have just started thinking 22 about policing issues in the recent past. I write for 23 community newspapers every week. One is called "Pride" 24 magazine. This is a copy of the newspaper. 25 And another is called "Diversity". This is a
441 copy of "Diversity". Every week about policing issues, the 2 administration of justice and how Canada can become a better 3 place if there was equal application of the law across the 4 board. 5 For my LLM thesis, I wrote -- this is my 6 thesis. It's entitled "Danger to the Public under the 7 Criminal Code and the Immigration Act of Canada, a 8 Comparative Constitutional Analysis". It talks about 9 equality in the administration of justice and so on and so 10 forth. 11 Not only have I done the talk, I have also 12 done various studies. For example, one of my LLM papers 13 dealt with Commissions of Inquiry. How useful are they? Are 14 they good for minorities and so on and so forth. 15 I also wrote a paper in one of my LLM courses 16 on how to make police officers accountable to their 17 communities. 18 It's also -- some of those are compiled here. 19 I also, at the end of one of the papers, indicate 20 comprehensive bibliography on Commissions of Inquiry, race 21 and policing, that's at page 26, Commissioner, of the book I 22 gave you. 23 And I have previously participated in other 24 Commissions of Inquiry, for example, I submitted a paper in 25 the -- to the Ontario Criminal Review Commission, 1996. I
451 have also submitted a paper to the Canadian Bar Association 2 group that dealt with minorities in the administration of 3 justice. I also gave a paper to the Corey (phonetic) Report 4 on the regulation of paralegals. 5 So I have been around the block. It's not 6 that I'm just coming out now. 7 Now, in terms of what unique perspective I 8 would contribute to this Commission, it's really simple. I 9 have studied the relationship between police and minorities 10 over the years since about 1998. I have written about it, I 11 have talked about it, I have participated in demonstrations. 12 I have formed groups. 13 I was one of the founders of the African- 14 Canadian Legal Clinic. I was once the Chairperson of the Law 15 Union of Ontario. I acted for Clayton Ruby. If you are -- 16 acted for Clayton Ruby. Police -- consciousness of the 17 police is always with you for the year that you are there. 18 And have litigated issues of racial profiling, 19 way up to the Supreme Court of Canada in the immigration 20 context. Right now, I have a big case on racial profiling. 21 Now, what has interested me, if I conclude, 22 Mr. Commissioner, is the racial slurs that allegedly were 23 uttered by some of the police during the Ipperwash 24 confrontation. 25 I should be given standing to flesh out some
461 of those issues and how the issues of racial slurs, racial 2 animosity in policing should not be allowed. 3 In some of the studies and publications, I 4 have made recommendations as how we can deal with that issue 5 of race and I believe that I can bring a unique perspective 6 to this Commission because I have studied both issues of 7 relations between the police and minorities. 8 And I deal with -- most of my clientele are 9 black people who have confronted the police from the 10 beginning and I bring racial profiling issues to the courts. 11 I should be given standing in both Parts -- in 12 both parts and I believe that I will contribute significantly 13 to the success of this Commission. 14 I have no further submission unless you have 15 -- you have questions, Mr. Commission. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 17 much for your submissions. Thank you, very kindly. 18 MR. MUNYONZWE HAMALENGWA: Thank you. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the 20 application of Chief Ka-Nee-Ka-Neet, the -- I was advised 21 this morning that neither the Chief nor Mr. Ellis, his agent, 22 will be able to attend today and so, that's -- we're done for 23 the day and done for the week and thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to thank 25 everybody very much. It was a very interesting week. We've
471 heard a great -- a great number of applications. We now have 2 the task of going back and considering how to -- how to 3 construct the standings for both Parts I and II and funding, 4 and as I indicated, we will do that very quickly. We'll 5 notify everybody who has applied and the decision will also 6 be on the website just as soon as we can. 7 So, thank you all, very, very much. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This standing and funding 9 Hearing is now concluded. 10 11 --- Upon adjourning at 11:35 a.m. 12 13 14 15 Certified Correct, 16 17 18 19 ____________________ 20 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 21 22 23 24 25