1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE CHIEF JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 Hearing on Standing Only 23 24 April 22th, 2004 25


1 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Katherine Hensel ) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon Convening at 9:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This standing and funding 4 hearing is now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 7 Notice the time, we're trying to start right on the button 8 every day. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Good morning, 10 Commissioner. Today we have nine (9) applications and I 11 wanted to advise everyone that we received an application 12 yesterday from the Aboriginal People's Council of Toronto 13 which will be dealt with tomorrow with the other four (4) and 14 so that -- for those who were not here before, just to let 15 them -- everyone know, we'll go in the order that the 16 applications are listed on the schedule, starting with the 17 Law Union of Ontario and the decision, with respect to 18 funding and standing, will be, as you announced on Tuesday, 19 reserved and everyone will be advised. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 21 much. Surprisingly, so far lawyers have been a little 22 quicker than we expected. No one's complaining but lawyers 23 have been a little shorter than we expected, so, we're just 24 going to start at the top and work our way through it. 25 Now, the first application on our list is the


1 Law Union of Ontario and I see Mr. Kellerman. 2 MR. ROBERT KELLERMAN: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, Mr. 4 Kellerman. 5 MR. ROBERT KELLERMAN: Good morning. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just carry on. 7 MR. ROBERT KELLERMAN: Thank you, very much. 8 Mr. Commissioner, the Law Union is applying. We think that 9 we might be able to contribute something in both parts of the 10 Inquiry. You -- I think you received an affidavit of Mr. 11 Paul Copeland, a long-time member and founder of the 12 organization. 13 I also provided some materials, which I hope 14 you've had an opportunity to look at. I won't take -- go 15 through those materials really. I may make reference to a 16 few forms. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 MR. ROBERT KELLERMAN: In our affidavit we 19 didn't request funding, but I -- we certainly would need it. 20 The Law Union is not a wealthy organization. So, that -- I 21 think if we are given standing, we will require some funding. 22 Now, the -- briefly, the history of the Law 23 Union; we've been around since 1974 and I think the important 24 part of the history is that -- with respect to this Inquiry, 25 is that the Law Union has always been very, very concerned


1 about policing issues right from the very beginning. 2 And I think in terms of policing issues, there 3 isn't another group that has spoken out more about these 4 issues or been involved in these issues than the Law Union, 5 both in our practice as lawyers and also as an organization. 6 And also, as Mr. Copeland pointed out in the affidavit, the 7 Law Union has always been very concerned about native issues 8 and throughout the years we have been involved in those 9 issues, too. 10 Our members -- many of our members have been 11 involved in doing legal work for native groups and have also 12 -- and the Law Union itself has, over the years, held events 13 concerned with legal issues in the native communities. Land 14 -- our members, or some of them are experts in this area, 15 have been involved in land claims and have been involved in 16 representing different bands and have taught in this area and 17 so on. 18 So, I think there's the expertise in that area 19 and there's certainly the expertise in the area of policing. 20 The -- in particular, with respect to policing we've 21 represented thousands of individuals as a result of arrests 22 involved in demonstrations and we've spent a great deal of 23 time assisting people who have been involved in various forms 24 of protest, demonstrations, occupations and in -- and in 25 sit-ins.


1 And we have tried to educate the public about 2 these issues and then we've tried to do law reform in the 3 areas of policing and we've made submissions over the years 4 to parliamentary committees and legislative committees about 5 policing issues and we've spoken out publicly on these 6 issues. 7 We -- with respect to policing, we've always 8 been concerned about racism in policing which I think is an 9 issue here and we've held conferences on those issues. 10 We've always been concerned about the use of 11 force in policing and we've also always been concerned about 12 the defence of democratic rights, the rights of freedom of 13 assembly and association and so on. 14 And we've done -- if you've looked at the 15 materials, there's a great deal of material that actually 16 shows that over the years this has been our concern, right 17 from the begin -- the first item I've put in our little 18 materials here is a seminar we held back in 1975 on the 19 Offence/Defence Survival Seminars for Activists. And it's 20 the page -- I think it's page 1. I've numbered the pages at 21 the top upper right hand corner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. ROBERT KELLERMAN: And you can see this 24 -- this was early on in the law union. We were already 25 holding instructional meetings for people who were involved


1 in political activity and trying to bring about social change 2 and we were teaching people about the issues of policing and 3 -- and people's rights and if you'll -- you'll notice the 4 demonstrations, the questions of permits and so on -- 5 cameras. 6 So, the -- now, later on we -- we held -- over 7 the years we've done this on numerous occasions and we 8 published a book which has been distributed by the labour 9 movement and by -- the -- and you'll find that at -- it's -- 10 it's the book that really comes along with the seminar, but 11 we've done this -- it's the shorter paper and you'll find it 12 at page -- sorry -- you'll find it at page 30. 13 We -- we just put in the whole publication for 14 you and that publication -- if you look at the chapter 15 headings, you'll -- the very second page in the table of 16 contents, you see that we are talking about the very issues 17 that I think would concern this Commission. And we have held 18 mass meetings with labour activists and other people to 19 instruct people about how to deal with the police, how to 20 avoid violence; which I think is one of the things you're 21 concerned with here. 22 And -- and we believe that we have a greater 23 expertise than most people, not only because we've thought 24 about these issues, but because we've been involved in -- in 25 all of -- in the defences of people involved in these


1 situations and spoken out about these things over the years 2 So, that when it comes to an assessment of what the police 3 are doing and why they're doing it and whether it's necessary 4 for them to do it, we think we have some special expertise. 5 Now, one of the concerns that the Commission, 6 in the mandate, is the relationship between the police and 7 the Government and there to, I think, we've played a special 8 role even in recent years, very involved in the issue of the 9 connect -- the political activity of the police and their 10 involvement with the last Government. 11 And we've been concerned that the police have 12 been involved in political activity and, and as a result of 13 that we felt that the Government was beholding to the police 14 and we felt that the police conduct might be shaped by their 15 relationship with the Government. 16 And we spoke out about these issues and we -- 17 I've made complaints to the Toronto -- the Police Service 18 Board recently about Chief Fantino's involvement in political 19 activity and also the Police Association involvement in 20 political activity. And we have tried to get the Police 21 Service Board to deal with the regulations under the Police 22 Service Act, which we believe, prohibit the police from this 23 kind of involvement. 24 And so, we have been trying to bring the 25 public's attention the issue of -- the relationship between


1 the Government and the police and we've included a very 2 popularized form of that in, in this material as well; a kind 3 of question and answer, which you'll find at page 35, 4 questions and answers on police and their political rights. 5 And -- now, this is written for popular 6 consumption but we did this for the press when we raised the 7 issue initially so that people might understand this 8 historical and constitutional limits on police involvement in 9 political activity. 10 Obviously, in this case, there's a real 11 concern that the police were taking instructions from the 12 Government and that the Government was interfering with 13 policing and this is a matter that we've been concerned with 14 years. 15 If you look, also at all our -- we have 16 included posters. If you look back one page, for example, at 17 page 34, just one page before our popular -- you'll see that 18 this was a typical conference for the Law Union in 1999 in 19 which the -- if you look at the back of that poster and you 20 look at, first of all, at the 1:30 Panel; it's Delgamuukw, 21 the Supreme Court of Canada and the Aboriginal Nations. 22 And at 1:30, at the same time, another Panel, 23 "Controlling the Police, Round Table Discussions on 24 Strategies to Respond to the Tory Destruction of Civilian 25 Oversight."


1 These -- not neutral terms. We -- we have a 2 position. We believe these things are going on and we've 3 fought for these things over the years. If -- I've included 4 posters from other conferences, right back from the beginning 5 and eat -- almost every conference we've ever hold -- held, 6 there's always been a Panel on controlling the police and the 7 search for good policing. 8 If you look at page 30 -- 36 of the materials, 9 there's a -- you -- you -- here, again, another Panel and 10 this was at 2000. And if you look at the back you'll see the 11 program and you'll see that we held a conference at 9:30 in 12 the morning, "Panel Ipperwash, Legal and Public Awareness of 13 Strategies in Suing the Government, the Premier and the OPP." 14 In other words, this isn't -- we're not here 15 because we've suddenly been interested in this. We've been 16 involved in this from the beginning of our organization. And 17 also, at 1:30 you see there was a Panel, "What Is Good 18 Policing?". 19 The same thing the following year; Ovide 20 Mercredi was our speaker at the 2001 conference. If you turn 21 to page 38, "The Battle for Native Rights in Canada". And 22 he was our keynote speaker at that annual conference. 23 And then if you turn over the page again you 24 see, at eleven o'clock, "Contemporary Struggles, Canada's 25 Perpetual Repression of Aboriginal Rights". And at 1:30,


1 "The Struggle For Good Policing, Civilian Control, Police and 2 Politics, Complaints, the SIU, Target Policing" and so on. 3 The very next year, the Panels right -- again, 4 you see policing issues on the -- on the page following. And 5 then the 2004 conference at page, I believe it's just the 6 next -- two pages over, 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 40. 8 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: Forty (40) -- as my 9 copy got cut off. And, again, on the back, you see a round 10 table, "Police, Politics and Accountability". And then "The 11 Legacy of Dudley George", a the two -- two o'clock Panel 12 further down. 13 So, every year we've been -- from the 14 beginning of the Law Union we've been involved, essentially, 15 in policing issues. 16 Aside from -- this is -- aside from our 17 practices where -- in which many of our members are involved 18 in these issues on a daily basis in our practice. So, we 19 think we have the theoretical expertise and we also believe 20 we have the pract -- practical experience in these areas. 21 As far as Ipperwash is concerned, the Law 22 Union was involved immediately after the events that took 23 place nearby here and we were invited to join the Ontario 24 Chiefs in a confer -- press conference and we called for a 25 public inquiry, this kind of inquiry, right from the very


1 beginning. 2 And so -- and then we -- and you'll find those 3 materials in here as well. I don't think I need to direct 4 you to them. But we were obviously concerned about this 5 issue right from the very beginning. 6 The -- the -- I think our contribution in the 7 first part -- I -- I think our contribution on the second 8 part could -- is pretty obvious. On the first part, I think 9 we might be able to contribute in a special way because of 10 our long experience in defending cases and in -- and knowing 11 what's really going on in the streets in this area and how 12 police really police and what they really are doing and 13 knowing how to cross-examine police and having the expertise 14 to do that and having done it over the years, we think we 15 might be able to assist the Commission in terms of finding 16 out what really did happen on -- at this -- in this 17 situation. 18 Three (3) of our members -- three (3) or four 19 (4) of our members actually defended people who were arrested 20 at Ipperwash including myself and Mr. House and Peter Hatch. 21 And so we know what went on here as well. 22 We've already read the facts and -- and 23 studied the case and we have some familiarity with the facts 24 and, of course, we've been following it over the years. So, 25 I hope we could make a contribution in the first part as


1 well. 2 I hope that assists you. I -- I don't think 3 you -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's very 5 helpful. Your -- your material is very helpful and your 6 submissions are as well. 7 Do you want to talk a minute about funding? 8 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: We'll -- we'll need 9 it. I mean, we would need -- we're not a wealthy 10 organization because most of our members are doing Legal Aid 11 work. You might -- and that doesn't result in big fees. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The rates -- the 13 rates are great. 14 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: I thought you might 15 say that. So, because of that and because some of -- of 16 course, we have a lot of members who are just students and 17 legal workers, there isn't -- we aren't a wealthy 18 organization. 19 We would, at least, need disbursements and we 20 -- and we would need some form of counsel fee, hopefully at 21 the Government -- what the Ontario Government pays, at least. 22 I don't think we're asking for what the civil tariff is which 23 would be significantly more. But, I think we would need 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does the Law


1 Union get any -- any funding from Government in any way, 2 shape or form? 3 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: Absolutely none. The 4 only -- we are entirely self-sufficient. It's based on 5 membership fees and whatever we can raise at our conferences 6 and so on. Things like this book, "Offence/Defence". We 7 give it away at ten dollars ($10). It's really the cost of 8 producing it. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: How many members do you 10 have? 11 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: Well, usually around 12 two hundred (200) members, sometimes, three hundred (300), 13 you know, at any -- in any one year. It depends who signs up 14 and who pays their fees. But, that's -- it's not a big 15 organization so the resources are limited. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there any 17 project funding for specific projects or -- 18 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: We've never had any 19 funding -- outside funding at all. I mean, we had help 20 producing this book, for example, and holding the -- the 21 seminars from the labour movement but we've never had funding 22 -- outside funding at all. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 24 much, Mr. Kellermann. 25 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: Thank you.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As usual, your 2 remarks are very, very, helpful. 3 MR. ROBERT KELLERMANN: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. The 5 next -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Procter, I believe, 7 Commissioner, will be appearing for the Mennonite Central 8 Committee. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 10 Mr. Procter. 11 MR. DON PROCTER: Morning, Your Honour. I 12 coordinate program for Mennonite Central Committee, Ontario 13 that we call "The Aboriginal Neighbours Program". 14 My mandate is to educate people about issues 15 affecting aboriginal people, to advocate for aboriginal 16 people when invited to and to build bridges between 17 aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples. 18 Because Rick Bauman has been associated with 19 the program much longer than I have and has been more closely 20 involved with the situation and people of Stoney Point, I 21 would like him to make the presentation today. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is Mr. 23 Bauman? Good morning, Mr. Bauman. 24 MR. RICK BAUMAN: Thank you, Don. Mr. 25 Commissioner, I will start be excusing my voice.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you have a 2 lovely voice. 3 MR. RICK BAUMAN: That's the first time 4 anyone's said that. I'd like to acknowledge members of the 5 George family that are here this morning as well and thank 6 you for the opportunity to make a presentation. 7 You have a -- relative to My Friend who went 8 before me, a more spare presentation from us on paper. I'm 9 not going to read it. It's about two and a half pages but 10 I'd like to refer to a couple of highlights and then 11 certainly be open to some questions from you if you have 12 them. 13 The Mennonite Central Committee, Ontario is 14 the relief and development agency of the Mennonite and 15 Brethren Christ Church. We began our submission to you with 16 three (3) quotations, I'm going to read one of them, the 17 second one. 18 It's from an -- an Elder Woman from Kettle and 19 Stoney Point; her name was Barbara George. And it was spoken 20 to one of our volunteer observers in October of 1995 when she 21 simply said: 22 "Friendship means a lot right now. There 23 aren't too many friendly people out there." 24 I'll refer back to that in a moment. We think 25 the strength of our application for standing rests on three


1 (3) points. The first, prior relationship with the people 2 and communities of Kettle and Stoney Point that gave us an 3 understanding of the deeper roots of the conflict prior to 4 the September 1995 shooting. 5 Secondly, an ongoing commitment to the 6 aboriginal and neighbouring community to stay in -- in mutual 7 and respectful relationships that work against resorting to 8 violence in the midst of conflict. 9 And third, an awareness of conflict management 10 techniques and practice at the community, police and 11 government level. I'll just expand on those three (3) 12 please. 13 Starting in 1992 we had worked with a number 14 of members of Kettle and Stoney Point to educate our own 15 people, our own constituency, to both correspond and to meet 16 with several levels of government in an attempt to achieve a 17 just and lasting settlement of the outstanding need to return 18 the lands taken in 1942. 19 This had Federal implications because of the 20 Department of Defence and Provincial with the park; and it 21 was this -- in this period where effective and appropriate 22 government action could have been taken towards resolution. 23 On the other hand, it's our belief that government action 24 after the park occupation, intervening in what was by then a 25 police action, proved to be highly ineffective and in fact


1 lethal. 2 The second point, we spent considerable energy 3 in the days after the shooting, developing a proposal for 4 observer teams whose job it would be to play a visible and 5 non-violent role in an effort to reduce the risk of further 6 violence as well as document any critical incidents. 7 Local aboriginal and non-aboriginal people 8 gave considerable support to this idea. We held several 9 trainings in the region. We placed an internationally 10 experienced worker on site for three (3) weeks to more 11 closely assess the need for these teams and the Barbara 12 George quotation, which I read a moment ago, was spoken to 13 him, Mr. Dan Epp-Tiessen and eventually led us to work much 14 more intentionally at local relationship building between our 15 church people in the region and the Kettle and Stoney Point 16 people who were feeling highly vulnerable at the time. 17 This gave us a clear sense of the level of 18 mistrust with police that had developed and the need for 19 strong, community-based policing that would build a local 20 sense of security and confidence. 21 And in terms of our relationship with the 22 police, throughout the weeks and months after the shooting we 23 made consistent point of staying in contact with the local 24 police force as well as the Ontario Provincial Police. We 25 were clear about our efforts at violence reduction and


1 relationship building after the incident, as well as a call 2 to the police to work hard at transparency, accountability 3 and the rebuilding of trust. This included a meeting with 4 OPP Commissioner O'Grady in 1998 and ongoing correspondence 5 with his successor Commissioner Boniface. 6 We also made it clear that we endorsed many 7 aspects of their original plan contained in quote "Project 8 Maple" for engaging at Ipperwash. 9 So in addition to the above, more direct 10 involvements at Kettle and Stoney, our history since 1973, 11 Mennonite Central Committee has been involved with aboriginal 12 communities across Canada in advocacy development and dispute 13 resolution projects. 14 Since 1974, MCC has been directly involved in 15 the founding and development of restorative justice 16 principles that include meditation, victim offender 17 reconciliation, circle justice and community conferencing, to 18 name a few. In fact, the thirty (30) year anniversary of 19 those founding events of 1974, sometimes known as the Elmira 20 (phonetic) incident, that thirty (30) year anniversary were 21 held in Waterloo this Summer to mark some of the beginnings 22 of restorative justice in Canada. 23 This has meant that MCC, Mennonite Central 24 Committee, has had an extensive national and international 25 involvement with schools, police services, governments, in


1 addition to neighbourhood and families, in the development of 2 conflict management that calls for accountability and 3 restoration so that broken communities can move on. 4 And finally, since 1995, we have been directly 5 involved in the creation of a civilian and, of course, 6 unarmed violence reduction project known as Christian Peace 7 Maker Teams. They have developed considerable expertise in 8 situations of highly volatile international conflict. You 9 may have heard of their presence in the Middle East and Iraq, 10 Columbia. 11 The intent to involve Christian Peace Maker 12 Teams directly in the preparation of our submission, inviting 13 them to share, among other things, their understandings of 14 escalation and de-escalation of conflict, effective forms of 15 community intervention and models for community and police 16 cooperation. 17 I notice as I look through the list of 18 applications that we are the only people that apparently are 19 directly from a faith community. We spent a considerable 20 amount of time, after the shooting in 1995, giving some 21 leadership to the faith community calling for an inquiry. 22 On the first anniversary of the shooting held 23 an event in Toronto to mark that and continued to try to keep 24 that in front of the faith communities as an important human 25 rights issue and one that needed educating in the faith


1 communities in Ontario as well. 2 So those would be our reasons for asking for 3 -- for standing here. We also have an application we think 4 for some modest funding which I can speak to you if you'd 5 like some more detail on that. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes, 7 please. I don't have that. Is there a separate -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We don't have any 9 material. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't have 11 any material on a funding application, that's why I was going 12 to ask you if you were seeking funding. 13 MR. RICK BAUMAN: That letter was sent with 14 -- by fax with our application on, I think, the 8th of April. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have -- we 16 have the material but not this. Please, would you just give 17 me a second to take a look at it. 18 MR. RICK BAUMAN: Sure. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 23 MR. RICK BAUMAN: Any comments that I should 24 make on -- on our application for funding? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I presume from


1 your material and your submission that you're applying for 2 Part II standing? 3 MR. RICK BAUMAN: That is correct. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And there isn't 5 a great deal here about the -- the relationship between the 6 committee and the church; it's a sub-committee? I'm not sure 7 what the relationship is between your committee and the 8 Mennonite Church. 9 MR. RICK BAUMAN: Okay. We are not the 10 Mennonite Church, but we are supported by and owned by, in 11 fact, the Mennonite Church and the Brethren of Christ Church, 12 here in Ontario. 13 We have a -- a separate board and we are 14 separately incorporated but all of our board members come out 15 of that constituency. 16 So, we are largely run by donated dollars from 17 that constituency, Mennonite and Brethren of Christ Church. 18 Other people in the community donate as well, often for 19 natural disasters, particularly. 20 In terms of Government funding, the only time 21 we would have Government funding would be when we're doing a 22 specific contract for Corrections Services or Health Canada 23 for a particular piece of work that they've asked us to do. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 25 separate Charter or Constitution for the Committee?


1 MR. RICK BAUMAN: There is. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would -- would 3 it be possible to ask for copies of that? 4 MR. RICK BAUMAN: That's not a problem. 5 Certainly we could submit that. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you mind 7 sending that to us? And any other material about the 8 organization as apart from the -- from the Mennonite Church 9 would be helpful? 10 MR. RICK BAUMAN: Okay. And our intentions 11 are simply to have a few dollars to cover some travel costs 12 as well as to engage a few partners that worked with us in 13 the mid-90's and continue to be interested in the topic, 14 particularly around police relations and community conflict 15 resolution. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 Anything else you want to say? 18 MR. RICK BAUMAN: I think that covers it. 19 Thank you for your time. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 21 much. 22 MR. RICK BAUMAN: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 25 much.


1 The next organization making an application 2 for standing is the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. 3 Good morning. 4 MR. STEPHEN MCCAMMON: Good morning, 5 Commissioner. My name is -- my name is Stephen McCammon and 6 I'm a lawyer with the Canadian Civil Liberties Association 7 and I'm on -- I'm here on behalf of CCLA to seek standing. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you spell 9 your name for the record because I don't have it in the 10 material please. 11 MR. STEPHEN MCCAMMON: Stephen is with a P-H. 12 And the last name is M-C-C-A-M-M, like Mary, Mary, O-N, like 13 Norman. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir. 15 MR. STEPHEN MCCAMMON: Thank you. CCLA seeks 16 standing to participate fully in Part II of the Inquiry. We 17 do not seek funding. Pleased to be in Forest and -- and 18 asked to commend the Commission for holding this -- this 19 Hearing -- here in this local community so close to people 20 that were directly affected by the events around the killing 21 of Dudley George. 22 The CCLA is a of -- national body supported by 23 and comprised of some several thousand individual members 24 from all walks of life, all political and religious and 25 social persuasions and orientations. We have several


1 thousand individual members in Ontario. 2 And the mandate of the organization is to 3 defend fundamental civil liberties and rights; to do so and 4 at the same time while respecting the competing priorities 5 and values that -- that society faces, particularly with 6 respect to Policing issues. 7 CCLA has struck in numerous context -- tried 8 to strike a delicate balance between those fundamental civil 9 liberties and rights, protest, civilian oversight, to name a 10 few as against the legitimate concerns of police and 11 security. Now, in doing this we have, over the last four (4) 12 decades, appeared before legislative bodies, courts, royal 13 commissions and inquiries, municipal boards, police services 14 boards and so on. 15 I appreciate that this Inquiry will have some 16 difficult issues to deal with. It -- some of the issues we 17 foresee arising that we imagine we can be quite helpful with, 18 relate to policing, civilian oversight machinery, the role of 19 the executive branch in dealing with police, a topic, I 20 understand, that may come up in -- in June, the relationship 21 between police and protestors and also fairness for First 22 Nations people. 23 The work we've done on these issues, as I say, 24 spans some four (4) decades. By happenstance, as long ago as 25 1968, CCLA made submissions to the Sarnia City Council,


1 regarding their obligations to honour certain land agreements 2 with the Chippewa nation at Sarnia. 3 We -- we -- as I said, we try to strike 4 balances on these various issues and just a year later we 5 went with Sid Brown, then the head of the Toronto Police 6 Association, to argue both for fairness to public 7 complainants but also for police when it comes to internal 8 discipline. 9 The CCLA also made submissions to the Royal 10 Inquiry looking into the Fordery (phonetic) strip search, 11 drug raid in 1974. We also helped fight some concerns that 12 native protestors had over their treatment to demonstration 13 in Parliament Hill and the treatment was at the hands of 14 police. 15 And in 1978 CCLA engaged with the then 16 Solicitor General of Ontario, George Kerr, in some 17 correspondence over allegations of mistreatment of natives by 18 police. Alan Borovoy, CCLA's general counsel then and now, 19 with some illustrious colleagues, made efforts to go up into 20 that area and -- and accommodate the concerns of the native 21 people. 22 We were involved in concerns over the bath 23 house raids in Toronto in the early '80s. And throughout the 24 '80s and '90s, CCLA played a leading role in making 25 submissions to all levels of government over the adequacy of


1 the machinery handling civilian oversight of particular 2 interest, in 1989 we made submissions to the Manitoba Inquiry 3 and to the Administration of Justice and Aboriginal peoples. 4 There, we made recommendations for an audit machine that 5 would help to identify and prevent problems and abuses 6 occurring in policing. 7 We've repeated these calls for civilian 8 oversight machinery in helping to influence the shape of 9 Ontario's Police Services Act as it was first radically 10 reformed in 1990. And we did our best to stand in the way of 11 changes that emerged in 1997 when the Police Service Act was 12 -- was changed and -- and independent involvement was 13 reduced. 14 Since then, we've been very involved in -- in 15 litigation and facilitating police complaints to try and 16 underscore some of the problems in the civilian oversight 17 machinery and the complaint machinery. We've gone to 18 divisional court and the Court of Appeal in our own name with 19 co-applicants to address those concerns in a case called -- 20 we call it the, "Guelph, Strip Search Seven (7) Case." 21 We've been involved in -- in issues around the 22 treatment of natives, protests and police, for example, at 23 Oka. CCLA attempted court action there, as well as wrote to 24 the Minister of Public Security of the Quebec Government and 25 the National Defence Minister to try and accommodate some


1 concerns about, amongst other things, press access to the -- 2 the Oka warriors. 3 Soon after the -- the events in Ipperwash, 4 CCLA joined the Dudley George family and others in press 5 conferences and in other public platforms in calling for this 6 public inquiry. 7 We also struck -- struck out to assist a group 8 called, "The Friends of Lubicon" in 1997 who were concerned 9 about the Lubicon people in Alberta and had engaged in some 10 novel tactics of dissent and free speech. We sought to 11 influence the Ontario Government in handling the -- the 12 restrictions on -- on that free speech. 13 One of the themes that's come up for us again 14 and again in the last decade and a half is, as I mentioned 15 earlier, the -- the relationship between the executive branch 16 of governments and police. 17 At Gustafson Lake, at Ipperwash, as well as, 18 at the events at APEC; there was debate about whether or not 19 it was appropriate for Ministers of Government to suggest 20 that the police shouldn't be doing something. It's CCLA's 21 position that Ministers of Government have a role in calling 22 police to stand down in unusual operations of significant 23 size and scope. I think this certainly applies to the case 24 at hand. 25 In the last few years, CCLA has been busier


1 than ever in respect of police powers questions. Some of 2 these questions go beyond the scope of the Inquiry but they 3 show our longstanding commitment and expertise on these 4 matters. 5 The anti-terrorism legislation that's come 6 out, one -- one piece after another, has attracted our 7 attention and concern. We've made submissions in Parliament 8 before both the Senate and the House of Commons. 9 We've also weighed in on a bill that secured 10 for the RCMP, a special role in setting up perimeters and 11 taking other measures to exclude protesters and other members 12 of the public when approaching international gatherings. In 13 that regard, we have still been pursuing our own complaint 14 against the RCMP and Quebec police forces over events in 15 Quebec City in April of 2001 at the Summit of the Americas. 16 Recently, we've filed further judicial review 17 applications in respect of the -- the Ontario Schooling 18 Commission on Police Services' handling of public complaints 19 or mishandling in our view. There, we're trying to make sure 20 that people who -- who witness alleged brutality by the 21 police are in a position to file public complaints and have 22 those treated fairly. 23 Finally, by way of an overview, I am certainly 24 not getting into all the activities that CCLA has engaged in 25 on policing or native issues or -- or civilian oversight, we


1 -- we've appeared in the courts some sixty (60) times I think 2 on interventions -- a little over sixty (60) times. Numbers 3 of those cases have dealt directly with police powers and the 4 civilian oversight machinery. 5 Most recently, I'm just citing a few, we were 6 at the Supreme Court of Canada to help win a victory limiting 7 the police power to search, incident to arrest, and 8 particularly the strip search in the Golden case. 9 We went to the Supreme Court in the Odhavji 10 case which was a civil suit and, and amongst other things, 11 concerned the role of -- of civilian supervision in police, 12 in this case in particular, in having policies and directives 13 to govern officers to uphold their duties to cooperate with 14 the SIU. 15 We've also, in the last weeks and -- and 16 months, been at the Supreme Court in the case of Tessling 17 (phonetic) concerns unusual surveillance technology practices 18 by the police. A case called Mann (phonetic) which concerns 19 the purported power to -- to stop and detain and question and 20 even search people without reasonable grounds to believe 21 they've committed an offence. 22 And, last but not least, we were at the 23 Supreme Court on this first challenge to one of the new 24 anti-terrorism powers. All of which is to say that we would 25 like to offer our experience and expertise to this Inquiry,


1 and to the public, in aid of assisting the Commission in 2 producing recommendation that might further the kind of 3 reform and reconciliation that was so eloquently spoken of in 4 the opening address by Elder Lillian Pitawatikwat. 5 Those are the reasons and the basis for our 6 seeking standing and we look forward to hearing from you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 8 much. 9 MR. STEPHEN MCCAMMON: You're welcome. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 11 kindly. 12 African Canadian Legal Clinic. I see Margaret 13 Parsons and Marie Chen. 14 MS. MARIE CHEN: Good morning, Justice 15 Linden. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 17 MS. MARIE CHEN: The ACLC has provided 18 detailed written submissions and, as well, a very detailed 19 affidavit from Ms. Parsons on this application for funding 20 and standing. 21 We've also provided today a bound book of 22 reports which has -- which is tabbed and has an index and as 23 well, looseleaf, Stephen Lewis' report on Race Relations. 24 We are applying for standing for Parts I and 25 II of this Inquiry and for funding as well. We believe that


1 the African Canadian Legal Clinic satisfies the criteria set 2 out in the draft Rules of Procedure. 3 While this Inquiry's focus is on the 4 circumstances and events surrounding the death of Mr. George 5 there is a larger context to be considered and I think it has 6 been recognized by this Commission in its opening statement. 7 We believe that a full and effective consideration of how Mr. 8 George, an aboriginal man, came to be shot and killed by the 9 OPP must involve consideration of the broader issue of 10 systemic racism in policing in Ontario. 11 A full consideration also involves looking at 12 the specific issues within that overarching context of 13 systemic racism such as police surveillance of racialized 14 people, police use of force against racialized people, the 15 exercise of police powers and discretion with respect to 16 racialized people and the particular racialized stereotypes 17 that come into play in policing and in police culture. 18 And further, the effective measures that are 19 needed to address racism in the police. Other issues that we 20 anticipate would come into play in the Commission's mandate 21 are the processes and mechanisms governing police use of 22 force, alternatives to the use of force, the relationship 23 between the executive and the police and the mechanisms 24 necessary to ensure accountability for police conduct. 25 We believe that the consideration of these


1 issues are essential to the discharge of the Commission's 2 mandate in both Parts I and II. 3 And these are issues -- these issues that I've 4 outlined are issues that impacted deeply on and are critical 5 to the African-Canadian community in Ontario and in Canada. 6 And it is within this larger context that the 7 interests and perspectives of the African-Canadian community 8 must be heard. In particular, its perspectives on the 9 pervasive racial discrimination against African-Canadians in 10 the justice system and policing and the disparate impact of 11 police use of force against African Canadians. 12 That systemic racism is experienced by 13 African-Canadians and aboriginal people in the criminal 14 justice system and across all facets of policing is borne out 15 by numerous reports and studies. One of the most notable 16 being the report of the Commission on Systemic Racism in the 17 Ontario Criminal Justice System which I provided in the bound 18 book of authorities. 19 For African-Canadians it's a -- it's an 20 undisputable reality that we are stopped disproportionately, 21 we are searched, arrested and detained by the police 22 disproportionately. This reality is confirmed by the data in 23 various reports, including the Commission on Systemic Racism. 24 With respect to the lethal use of force by the 25 police, it is also a reality that aboriginal people and


1 African-Canadians have been the primary targets. Stephen 2 Lewis, in his report on race relations in Ontario, recognized 3 the impact of the use of force explicitly in this way and I 4 quote from page 2 5 "First, what we're dealing with at root and 6 fundamentally is anti-black racism. While 7 it is obviously true that every visible 8 minority community experiences the 9 indignities and wounds of systemic 10 discrimination throughout southern Ontario, 11 it is the black community which is the 12 focus. It is blacks who are being shot." 13 And Mr. Lewis goes on to list other areas of 14 discrimination and he ends by saying: 15 "Just as a soothing balm multiculturalism 16 cannot mask racism, so racism cannot mask 17 its primary target." 18 Other reports also indicate that African 19 Canadians have been subject to police violence and use of 20 force in a disproportionate and profound way. 21 I've included in the bound books, a study that 22 was done by Gabriella Pediceelli. It's entitled, "When 23 Police Kill" and it's a study of official deaths that 24 occurred in Toronto and Montreal between 1994 and 1997, 25 deaths at the hands of the police. And it illustrates


1 compellingly the overwhelming disparity of the number of 2 black victims. 3 For example; in Toronto, 50 percent of the 4 twelve (12) deaths were black men. When in 1991, African 5 Canadians constituted only 3.25 percent of Toronto's 6 population. The situation was very much the same in 7 Montreal, where 45 percent of the deaths were black men and 8 where in Montreal the population of African Canadians was 9 1.25 percent and all the black victims were killed by the use 10 of hand guns. 11 And the Commission on Systemic Racism also 12 considered the issue of police shootings and considered resp 13 -- systemic responses to those and I won't quote it, but I'll 14 just draw your attention to page 377 and the Commission's 15 report is on page -- Tab-1. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 377? 17 MS. MARIE CHEN: 377 at Tab 1. And I -- I 18 think the Commission sets out in very succinct language, the 19 impact of use of force on black -- the black community in 20 Ontario and the -- the urgency with which this issue need -- 21 needed to be addressed. 22 And I think in this -- in the circumstances 23 surrounding Mr. George's death, there's -- there's been an 24 explicit link that has been drawn between racism towards 25 aboriginal people and racism towards African Canadian black


1 people. 2 In -- we've been -- we've included media 3 reports on tapes that were obtained by CBC News which 4 recorded, on tape, comments made by OPP Officers the day 5 before the death of Mr. George. 6 In those tapes -- and I've included them in -- 7 in Tab-5 of our bound volume. And those tapes indicate that 8 -- derogatory comments were made towards, not just aboriginal 9 people, but also black people and particularly the comment 10 about baiting with a pit with beer for aboriginal people and 11 then in the same breath, mentioning the -- the -- that it 12 works with watermelons in the South; I mean, referring to a 13 stereotype on African Americans. And both communities have 14 recognized this commonality of experience of racism within 15 policing. 16 Soon after -- shortly after these tapes were 17 released a press conference was organized by the Anishinabek 18 Nation, Union of Ontario Indians, in which both leaders of 19 both communities attended and presented on the issues of 20 systemic racism and the impact of racism in policing on their 21 respective communities. The ACLC was one of them and played 22 a leadership role in presenting the perspectives of the 23 African Canadian Community. 24 With respect to the issue of use of force and 25 systemic discrimination within the criminal justice system,


1 the African Canadian Community has played has played and 2 continues to play a crucial role. 3 Throughout the last twenty (20) years, demands 4 by the community have resulted in various tasks forces and 5 consultations in Ontario to inquire into policing practices 6 and policies, including the use of force. One result of 7 these commissions was the establishment of the SIU. 8 I've also included one community initiative in 9 which the ACLC was -- played a -- a large role in and that's 10 the community coalition concerned about police -- civilian 11 oversight of police. And I believe that's -- I don't have 12 the tab here, but that's in the book -- the bound book. 13 In this context, the continued ability of the 14 African Canadian Community to be heard in and involved in any 15 inquiry into the use of force by the police is critical not 16 just because of the importance of these issues to the 17 community, but also in order to ensure the confidence and 18 trust of the African Canadian Community in the justice system 19 and in this Inquiry. 20 In this context, interests and perspectives of 21 the community are of critical importance and are relevant to 22 the mandate of the Commission and -- and therefore ought to 23 be separately represented before this Inquiry. 24 As I've mentioned, the ACLC has played a 25 leadership role in these issues and has represented the


1 African-Cana -- Cana -- Canadian community on issues of 2 policing and on numerous other issues involving anti-black 3 racism and it's done this through the exercise of its mandate 4 in the addressing systemic racism through its test case 5 litigation, its advocacy and law reform activities. 6 In Ms. Parson's affidavit at pages 3 to 8, 7 there's an extensive list of ACLC activities with respect to 8 policing and I'm just going to highlight a few of them. 9 And you can see from the affidavit that we've 10 been deeply involved in the issues of policing and that's not 11 surprising given how -- how much of an impact that has on the 12 community. 13 We -- we have engaged in direct advocacy for 14 African-Canadians who have been impacted by policing 15 practices. 16 We have assisted African-Canadians who have 17 been subjected to police misconduct and we have also made 18 submissions to various committees including the Criminal 19 Justice Review Committee, the Commission on Systemic Racism 20 and as I mentioned, we -- we assisted in forming the 21 community coalition of concern about civilian oversight of 22 police. 23 We've participated in Toronto Police Services 24 Board special consultation. We've made submissions to the 25 Attorney General of Ontario with respect to this special


1 investigations unit. 2 We've participated in consultations where the 3 police -- Toronto Police Services Board on a review of the 4 policies and procedures governing strip searches. We've 5 participated in consultation between the Toronto police and 6 members of the African-Canadian community concerning violence 7 in -- in the community. 8 We've organized a national consultation of 9 lawyers, academics and Canadian advocates to consider the 10 issues of policing, focussing on remedies and accountability 11 for police misconduct. It -- and included a consideration of 12 the use of force and equality considerations for African- 13 Canadians. 14 We participated in the consultative process 15 leading up to the Adams Report on the SIU process. We -- 16 we've also joined the SIU directors resource committee 17 And most recently, last -- in October 2002, 18 the ACLC played a leadership role in mo -- mobilizing 19 community initiatives following the Toronto Star's report -- 20 series of reports on racial profiling by the police in 21 Toronto 22 And played a leadership role, as well, in 23 forming the African-Canadian community coalition on racial 24 profiling which -- which recently held a conference on racial 25 profiling where two (2) commissioned reports were released


1 And in 2003, the ACLC provided written and all 2 deputations to the police -- Toronto Police Services Boards 3 and its race relations joint working group on the issues of 4 racial discrimination, police complaints process, data 5 collection and racial profiling. 6 We've also been deeply involved in policing 7 issues in our test case litigation. We -- at the Supreme 8 Court level, we were involved in the Odhavji case and as Mr. 9 McCammon pointed out to you, was a case involving police 10 shooting of a racialized man in Toronto and where the issue 11 of police misconduct and accountability for that misconduct 12 was -- was central. 13 And the ACLC provided the context of by which 14 use of force impacts on African-Canadian community. 15 We also intervened in R. versus Golden and as 16 Mr. McCammon pointed out to you, it's a case invo -- 17 involving strip searches by the police and in the -- in the 18 court's ruling it specifically noted the submissions of the 19 ACLC and noted that African-Canadians were over-represented 20 in the criminal justice system and were likely to represent a 21 disproportionate number of people who were arrested by the 22 police. 23 We've also, in terms of the Ontario Court of 24 Appeal, intervened on the two (2) main racial profiling 25 cases, R. versus Richards and R. versus Brown.


1 And in these two (2) cases the ACLC addressed 2 the issue of racial profiling, provided the historical 3 context to the court and provided an equality rights analysis 4 for the court. 5 With respect to -- we've also been involved in 6 the coroner's inquest in the death of Clifford Coli, Ian 7 Clifford Coley and that was in 1995 and Mr. Coley was an 8 African-Canadian man who was shot by the police and the ACLC 9 participated in that Inquiry and was granted standing. 10 We've also been involved in test case -- many 11 test case litigation cases in general and those are listed, 12 quite extensively, in Ms. Parsons' affidavit and I will not 13 take you through that today. 14 In its activities, the ACLC takes a community 15 -- a consultative community outreach approach. And that is 16 to ensure that the African Canadian communities' perspectives 17 and input are obtained and are reflected in our approach to 18 test cases. 19 And the ACLC's committed to taking the same 20 consultative approach to this Inquiry as it has in other 21 cases. And in Ms. Parsons' affidavit, we speak to 22 organizing sub-committees and we're committed to doing that 23 as well for this Inquiry in order that the perspectives of 24 African-Canadians are brought to the table and -- and in a 25 realistic way and representative way.


1 We believe that the experience and expertise 2 of the ACLC in policing issues and in racial discrimination 3 issues will be of great assistance to this Inquiry. 4 With respect to Part II, we believe that the 5 community would be sufficiently impacted by Part II. Given 6 the impact on African-Canadians of policing and use of 7 force, any recommendations arising out of this Inquiry will 8 have a deep and far reaching effect on the interests of the 9 communities served and represented by the ACLC. 10 We've also applied for funding and, as you 11 well know, we're a legal aid clinic and we receive core 12 funding from Legal Aid Ontario. However, we receive funding 13 for two (2) litigation lawyers only to -- to litigate our 14 test cases. 15 And in -- in Ms. Parsons' affidavit it's very 16 clear that the resources of the litigation lawyers are 17 completely stretched to the limit and over, if I might say 18 so. And the only way that the ACLC will be able to 19 participate in this Inquiry is -- is -- is if we are able to 20 retain outside counsel. 21 And that's the only reason that we are 22 applying for funding. We would not otherwise be able to 23 participate in this Inquiry. In Ms. Parsons' affidavit, 24 we've set out the list of cases that we are involved in and 25 there are twelve (12) cases, test cases, that the ACLC is


1 currently involved in. 2 And given that this Inquiry would require 3 resources, the ACLC cannot, without hiring outside counsel, 4 be -- participate in this Inquiry. We are asking for 5 counsel fees and we're also asking for disbursements and you 6 might be aware that we do -- we are funded for disbursements 7 but those funds are already earmarked for our current test 8 cases and there's nothing extra with respect to our 9 participation in this Inquiry if we're granted standing. 10 The list of cases are on page 17 to 18. 11 We're not trying to minimize how swamped we are. I mean, if 12 you look at the list of cases, they are expensive and they 13 cover many areas, many spheres, and it's -- many diverse 14 spheres and if you look at page 17 to 18 of Ms. Parsons' 15 affidavit, you'll see that it runs -- it runs the gambit. 16 We're involved in a Grade 10 literacy test. 17 We're involved in a constitutional challenge to the Safe 18 Schools provision of the Education Act. We're involved in a 19 Board of Inquiry, a Human Rights Hearing on employment 20 equity and systemic racial discrimination at the Toronto 21 District School Board. We're involved in a constitutional 22 application in Youth Justice Court. 23 We're involved in three (3) judicial review 24 applications under the Education Act. We're involved in a 25 judicial review application from a Child and Family Services


1 Review Board. We're involved in two (2) Human Rights 2 complaints relating to prohibitive law school fees. 3 We're involved in an intervention on racial 4 profiling, a non-constitutional application. The list goes 5 on and it -- it -- there's two (2) lawyers, and me being one 6 (1) of them, and I'll tell you that it's just not possible 7 without outside counsel for the ACLC to be engaged in this 8 Inquiry. 9 And I think what -- what needs to -- what's 10 important as well is that it appears that the ACLC is the 11 only African-Canadian organization that's seeking standing in 12 this Inquiry 13 And I think that it's therefore critical that 14 the ACLC be granted funding in order that the perspectives of 15 the African-Canadian community be heard at this Inquiry and 16 that the community's interest can be effectively represented 17 and appropriately resourced. 18 We've provided a proposal for and use of and 19 accounting for the funds and it's detailed in our written 20 application and I will not go through that. But just to say 21 that we've provided a viable and responsible proposal for the 22 accounting and use of the funds. 23 Those are the reasons why the ACLC is applying 24 for standing and funding. And subject to any questions... 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very


1 much. 2 MS. MARIE CHEN: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As I've 4 explained to some of the other applicants, the Commission 5 doesn't grant funding. The Commission simply makes the 6 recommendation -- 7 MS. MARIE CHEN: Recommendation. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to the 9 government and the government makes the determination. Now 10 the government has its own schedule of fees and allowances, 11 hourly rates, per diems, personal expenses and so on, subject 12 to management or guidelines and there will be an independent 13 assessor appointed who will review the funding claims of any 14 applicants who seek funding. 15 That's just something I've said to other -- 16 other applicants. 17 MS. MARIE CHEN: So in that light, we would 18 ask the Commission to recommend that we be funded. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. Is 20 that all you wish to say? You're done? Ms. Parsons', 21 anything to add? No, that's it? That's fine. 22 MS. MARIE CHEN: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 24 much. 25 I think this would be an appropriate time to


1 take a morning break. We will take a fifteen (15) minute 2 break. Thank you very much. 3 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 4 Hearing will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 10:33 a.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 10:57 a.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Hearing is now resumed. 10 Please be seated. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the next 12 applicant is Mr. Hamalengwa and I've -- I don't believe Mr. 13 Hamalengwa is here and I've called his office to try to 14 ascertain where he is and his assistant thinks he's in court. 15 But so I suggest that we hold his application 16 down and I'm going to, after we have a break, I will try to 17 see if I can find some further information. It may be that 18 he's on his way. 19 The next applicant, Chief Ka-Nee-Ka-Neet, I 20 was told by Mr. Ellis, who's his agent, that they would be 21 appearing this morning because Chief Ka-Nee-Ka-Neet was to be 22 coming in from Regina yesterday. So they may, as well, be on 23 their way. 24 And so, I know Mr. Camman is here on behalf of 25 Mr. Simpson and Mr. Carey so that I suggest we proceed to Mr.


1 Camman next. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 Mr. Camman...? 4 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Good morning. As 5 indicated, I'm here representing Mr. Simpson and Mr. Carey. 6 I apologize that we don't have more materials before you. 7 This is my first time requesting standing at something like 8 this and, in fact, the initial impetus for making this 9 request was as a result of information that Messrs. Simpson 10 and Carey would have to assist the -- your ultimate goal in 11 Phase II. And their evidence relates to the government 12 interference and influence on policing. 13 As we prepared to make submissions to you this 14 morning, we began to realize that there is -- was an 15 additional reason why I had to be included in this process 16 and, although I'm a little bit uncomfortable speaking about 17 myself in this, I think, under the circumstances, I'm going 18 to have to do that. 19 And I need to explain to you a parallel 20 incident which is the foundation for your reasons for needing 21 to have our presence at this -- this procedure -- process. 22 The parallel incident occurred beginning in 23 1996. The government was the same government that was 24 involved at the time of Dudley George and the incident was a 25 Bluewater riot at an institution near here, near Sarnia.


1 And as a result, several rioters were removed 2 from that institution and transferred to Elgin Middlesex 3 Detention Centre where George Simpson and other managers were 4 in charge. As a result of -- of a report that was filed 5 subsequently by Judy Finlay (phonetic), a -- that -- who was 6 a child advocate at the time and is now, there was a -- what 7 I would describe as a political maelstrom in which the 8 government being -- began to react. 9 And it is out of that reaction that we 10 developed the parallel incident. That is, although the 11 incident that's parallel didn't have the same consequences, 12 the modus operandi of the government of the day was exactly 13 the same as I anticipate the modus operandi was in respect of 14 the Dudley George situation. 15 George Simpson himself was a police officer in 16 his -- prior to becoming the Superintendent of Elgin 17 Middlesex Detention Centre, he was also the president of an 18 organization known as the Ontario Association of Correctional 19 Managers. He originally came to the -- what was then called 20 the Ministry of Correctional Services, and the Minister at 21 that time, as you may recall, was Mr. Runciman and once again 22 we have that tie-in. 23 George Simpson went there as an investigator 24 and -- it's this -- this background and his position as the 25 Ontario Association of Correctional Managers President, which


1 instigated a great deal of his efforts, both at the time and 2 since, into his particular incident; that is the 3 investigation of the -- the -- what was euphemistically 4 referred to as the Blue Water Report and then there were 5 certain consequences, namely twenty-nine (29) criminal 6 charges were brought against various managers. 7 Numerous people lost their jobs, including Mr. 8 Simpson. In the final result, twenty-seven (27) of the 9 twenty-nine (29) charges were completely withdrawn and the 10 two (2) others claimed that they had only pled guilty to the 11 allegations because they couldn't afford the cost of the huge 12 investigation and the costs it would take to defend 13 themselves against that charge. 14 Now, the -- since that -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where did Mr. 16 Carey fit in? 17 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Mr. Carey was one of 18 those managers who was charged and at great personal 19 sacrifice and cost, he defended himself in the criminal 20 offence and -- and won his criminal charge. His was the only 21 case which actually went to trial. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was he a 23 Correctional Officer? 24 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: He was a Correctional 25 Manager at the time of the riot.


1 In this process and since, both through the -- 2 through the various types of litigation, the criminal 3 litigation and the -- the litigation in front of the Public 4 Service Grievance Board. I was intimately involved, I was 5 the counsel for the Ontario Association of Correctional 6 Managers, and I'll -- I'll deal with myself in a little more 7 detail in a minute. 8 But Mr. Carey and Mr. Simpson had to go 9 through a process with no resources of uncovering and 10 unravelling the government process, which was a very 11 difficult, to say the least; but through which they gained 12 tremendous experience which I submit is going to be of -- of 13 benefit to yourself in this -- in this matter. 14 As we came here today, it became apparent why 15 I've been asked to make this submission to you and I'll go 16 through some of that now. 17 I'm -- I have been a lawyer for twenty (20) 18 years. I -- my area of -- of practice is primarily 19 employment labour and human rights. I have represented the 20 Ontario Association of Correctional Managers, I presently 21 represent the Professional Ontario Managers Association, 22 various police associations through the province, including 23 the London Police Association, the Chatham Kent Police 24 Association. So I have a connection to the policing side. 25 I also repre -- have represented, in the past,


1 the Original Chiefs of Ontario, Walpole Island, Kettle and 2 Stoney Point. At various times I still represent Walpole 3 Island and numerous other First Nations dealing with their -- 4 primarily their employment, labour, and human rights issues. 5 I am presently in the Masters program at 6 Osgoode, where I am writing a -- my thesis on the 7 jurisdiction of -- who has jurisdiction on a First Nation in 8 respect of labour, employment and human rights. 9 So I have a significant connection to the -- 10 to the First Nations community. It consider them to be my 11 friends and I think they consider me to be their friend, as 12 well. I have a connection to the policing community. I 13 consider them to be my friends and they consider me to be 14 their friend too, I hope. 15 I also teach at the University of Western 16 Ontario, negotiations, alternative dispute resolution, trial 17 processes, and adjunct professor and I teach conflict 18 resolution to First Nations. 19 So I hope that I'm -- what I'm painting for 20 you is that there is a significant connection to both of the 21 communities that are involved here and an intimate knowledge 22 of the government process and in particular, this government, 23 the government which is going to be come under -- under your 24 scrutiny in the phase II of this -- of this matter. 25 The -- and -- and I want to deal with that


1 because there is a culture that is unique to government and, 2 excuse me, I don't -- I'm not -- I don't intend to talk down 3 to you, I'm trying to state -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Don't worry about 5 it. 6 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Good, okay. It would -- 7 it would be very difficult for me to do that anyways but -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're -- 9 we're speaking to the public. We're speaking for everybody 10 -- for everybody's benefit; that's what this is, a public 11 hearing so whatever you say is helpful and useful. 12 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Thank you. That -- 13 through that process of -- and what I would mit -- admit is 14 that when we entered that process in 1996, having had 15 actually considerable experience, we often joked about the 16 fact that I will never become a judge because I have sued 17 every political party when they were in power in this 18 province and they all hate me. 19 So I have friends in the policing community, I 20 have friends in First Nations, but I have no friends in 21 government, apparently. 22 The -- one of the things which -- which 23 happens on the basis of once you develop a reputation for -- 24 for suing governments, I guess, is what we call the brown 25 envelope factor.


1 And what that really involves is that evidence 2 from civil servants who -- good, decent civil servants, I 3 might add, who have knowledge of wrongdoing and -- and know 4 where the bodies are buried, will send brown envelopes to my 5 office in respect of the various cases that -- that I am 6 involved in. And these often uncover corruption within the 7 government and suppression of evidence that otherwise I 8 wouldn't be able to get. 9 This particular government, and I don't mean 10 to pound the government because I have to say that I have 11 found that in my experience of suing the various parties and 12 -- and -- that represent the government, that there has -- 13 there is certain similarity, but this government in 14 particular had a unique culture that we uncovered through the 15 issue notes, press releases, government process, the various 16 players involved and the -- and the impact that the media 17 would have on their decision making. 18 So in the parallel incident that I described 19 at Blue Water, once the matter became public as a result of a 20 leak of the Blue Water report, then the government began to 21 set into operation a certain modus operandi which parallels 22 the modus operandi in the Dudley George incident. 23 And it is through experience of having to 24 unravel that -- that web that we come before you, that is the 25 experience both of Mr. Simpson, who has continued his


1 investigation since that period of time and it -- I might add 2 an investigation during an unfriendly period of time. 3 That's the great distinction that we have, I 4 hope, between the situation that he faced and the situation 5 that we are now facing. This Inquiry will undoubtedly open 6 up the doors that had previously been closed and allow us to 7 -- to unravel better. 8 But in addition to that, we've had significant 9 experience in cross-examining these various government 10 officials and their -- and uncovering not only what I would 11 call their evidence but their non-evidence which often is as 12 important as the evidence. 13 That is, what investigations don't find can be 14 as critical to the result as what investigations do find, 15 particularly when investigations are directed and in -- 16 again, referring to the parallel situation, in the Blue Water 17 situation Mr. Simpson and Mr. Carey have direct evidence that 18 the government, in fact, directed the investigation and in 19 doing so influenced the ultimate outcome of -- of the 20 findings, because when you tell good police officers to go 21 find something, they'll do it. 22 The parties involved, as I indicated, are the 23 same and similar. It's still the Runciman's and the senior 24 officials. The use of lawyers within the government itself, 25 that is to place lawyers into meetings in which operational


1 decisions are being made; to therefore shelter them under 2 solicitor client privilege is a technique which we uncovered 3 in our investigation and which we can shed much light on. 4 And finally the result of -- of the -- of the 5 parallel incident was that the -- twenty-seven (27) of these 6 charges were completely withdrawn. One (1) charge went -- 7 only one (1) charge went ultimately to a trial and Mr. Carey 8 was found not guilty and numerous managers who had been 9 removed from their positions of employment were reinstated as 10 a result of the uncovering of that evidence. 11 We suggest that our expertise that we learned 12 in the field of battle will be imperative to uncovering the 13 same types of problems that you're going to find in the 14 second phase of your Inquiry. 15 And subject to your -- any questions that you 16 have, those are my submissions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there an 18 application for funding? 19 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Yes, there will be an 20 application for funding. We haven't made that yet. but we 21 certainly will need to -- to pay for my time to be at the 22 Inquiry. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you be 24 submitting an application for standing -- you've made it 25 orally --


1 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but you would 3 put something in writing and, as well, an application for 4 funding? 5 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: I would suggest that that 6 would probably be an appropriate thing to do. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have the application 8 for standing. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I don't 10 have it in -- 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Simpson and Mr. Carey. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's this one 13 letter. This one page? That's it? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. I 16 thought there was more than that, but -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's it. 18 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: It seems to me that -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have that. 20 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: -- given what I have told 21 you that -- that it would behove me to file, at the very 22 least, some form of a curriculum vitae for your review or -- 23 or anything else that you think may be helpful. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 25 something other than this one (1) letter and, in addition, a


1 funding application would be useful for us to have. That's 2 fine. 3 I understand it would be a -- it wouldn't be a 4 traditional kind of application but whatever information you 5 can provide us would be useful. 6 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 8 much, Mr. Camman. 9 MR. ANDREW CAMMAN: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. Have 11 either of the other applicants shown up since we've been 12 here? Do you want to call the names and then we'll have a 13 recess and decide what to do? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, the -- I -- and I 15 might deal with the eight (8) and nine (9) on the list as 16 well. I don't know if -- is Mr. Hamalengwa here by any 17 chance? And Mr. Ellis or Chief Ka-Nee-Ka-Neet? 18 I don't think -- I'll try to follow up with 19 both of them when we have a break. The last two (2) 20 applications on the list we might just as -- might deal with 21 now. 22 The -- at Tab 8 of your material is the -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Golden 24 Rules. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- application of the


1 Golden Rules Society. On Tuesday, the -- Mr. Bullock who is 2 the secretary of the Golden Rules Society faxed a letter to 3 me at the office in Toronto advising me that they wished -- 4 they were unable to attend today and that they wished to have 5 their application considered on -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the 7 materials? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- simply the written 9 application. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 11 application for limited standing or standing for Part II; 12 isn't it? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- it's an 14 application for limited standing to ask two (2) questions to 15 all of the participants, and the questions they propose to 16 ask would be in writing. 17 At Tab 9, Commissioner, there's an application 18 from Amnesty International for limited standing in Part I and 19 for standing in Part II. It's signed by a Mr. Neve. 20 Mr. Neve also requested, in writing, prior to 21 -- last -- before we began this week for permission not to 22 attend from Ottawa and asked the Commission to -- and asked 23 you to consider the written application for standing. 24 And I communicated with Mr. Neve and indicated 25 that that would be, under the circumstances, appropriate.


1 And both Mr. Bullock and Mr. Neve wanted me to express that 2 they -- by not being here they are not -- they simply did not 3 -- could not be here, or Mr. Bullock could not be here and 4 Mr. Neve was going to have to travel from Ottawa. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Amnesty 6 material is quite extensive. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, there's quite a bit 8 of material from Amnesty. So I suggest that we break until 9 twelve o'clock and I'll see what I can find out between now 10 and twelve o'clock as to our two (2) missing applicants. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So we will 12 reconvene at twelve o'clock -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and see what 15 the situation is. Thank you all very much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 17 Hearing will recess until 12:00, noon. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 11:17 a.m. 20 --- Upon Resuming at 12:02 p.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Hearing is now resumed. 23 Please be seated. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suppose it's 25 afternoon. Good afternoon, everybody.


1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Commissioner. 2 I've spoken to Mr. Ellis who's the agent for Chief Ka-Nee-Ka- 3 Neet and Chief Ka-Nee-Ka-Neet is coming from Regina and has 4 not arrived. So Mr. Ellis asked if the application could be 5 heard tomorrow and I said yes, so that he will -- either Mr. 6 Ellis or Chief Ka-Nee-Ka-Neet will be here tomorrow. 7 I spoke to Mr. Hamalengwa and Mr. Hamalengwa 8 misunderstood where the location was going to be and had gone 9 to 250 Yonge Street and he asked if could come tomorrow. 10 So we will add those two (2) on to our list 11 for tomorrow, so we now have seven (7) for tomorrow with the 12 additional of the Aboriginal Peoples Council of Toronto and 13 moving Chief Ka-Nee-Ka-Neet and Mr. Hamalengwa until 14 tomorrow. 15 So we'll start tomorrow morning at 10:30. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it at all 17 possible for them to come between 9:30 and 10:30? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we had set our 19 schedule for 10:30. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right but we 21 didn't know we were going to have all those applications. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't know. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't know? 24 Oh. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't know. I would


1 suggest that we start at -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Stay -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 10:30. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Stay at 10:30? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Every day we 7 finished early. Probably tomorrow where we're expecting to 8 finish early, we'll probably go until seven o'clock. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Unfortunately, as Robert 10 Burns once said, the best laid plans of mice and men. Thank 11 you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 13 much. Thank you. See you tomorrow morning at 10:30. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Hearing is adjourned 15 until tomorrow morning, Friday, April 23rd at 10:30 a.m. 16 17 --- Upon Adjourning at 12:05 p.m. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 2 3 Certified Correct 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ___________________________ 11 Wendy Warnock 12 Court Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25