11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 21st, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) (np) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 ROBERT ADAM GRAHAM, Resumed 6 Continued Cross-Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 133 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 136 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 143 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 175 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 198 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 214 13 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 221 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 223 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1371 Document Number 2003547. Handwritten 4 notebook entries of Rob. Graham, 5 September 04-14, 1995. 10 6 P-1372 Transcript of Region 03, Rob Graham, 7 Wayde Jacklin, September 05, 1995, 22:49 8 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, Logger tape 9 number 4, Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 45 10 P-1373 Document Number 1001993. Transcript of 11 Logger tape. Command Centre, three (3) 12 telephone lines, September 06, 1995, 13 23:13 hrs, Rob Graham and Les Kobayashi 14 (also P-347 and P- 883). 115 15 P-1374 Document Number 1001992. Transcript of 16 Radio transmissions. Rob Graham and 17 Pinery Park, 23:14 hrs, September 06, 18 1995, (also P-347). 116 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 13 ROBERT ADAM GRAHAM, Resumed 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Good morning, Sergeant Graham. 17 A: Good morning. 18 Q: I wonder if you could open your book 19 to Tab 7. And I understand that these are your notes for 20 the period September 4th to September 6th, 1995; is that 21 correct? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And I would ask that these notes -- 24 it's four (4) pages of notes Inquiry Document 2003547 be 25 marked the next exhibit.
101 THE REGISTRAR: P-1371, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1371: Document Number 2003547. 4 Handwritten notebook entries 5 of Rob. Graham, September 04- 6 14, 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And I understand on the afternoon of 10 September the 4th you were on duty at Grand Bend? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And had patrolled the Park area in 13 the afternoon? 14 A: Around four o'clock, yes, sir. 15 Q: And then at some point in time you 16 were called out and sent to the Park on September the 17 4th; is that correct? 18 A: That is. 19 Q: And can you tell us what you recall 20 of being called out and being sent to the Park? 21 A: I recall being called out to go to 22 the Park as a result of the Natives had -- had entered in 23 to the Provincial Park and officers were there and 24 required assistance. 25 Q: And what time did -- were you asked
111 to -- were you called out to the Park? 2 A: At 20:30 hours or 8:30 p.m. 3 Q: And that's noted on page 88 of your 4 notes. It's the first page of Exhibit P-1371? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can tell us from your 7 recollection what you did when you were called up. You 8 drove to the Park? 9 A: Proceeded to the Park. 10 Q: And what time did you arrive at the 11 Park? 12 A: I -- I don't recall, sir. 13 Q: And when you arrived at the Park 14 where did you go? 15 A: I proceeded to where the -- the group 16 of officers were to the best of my recollection, where 17 the -- whether it was all the officers or most of the 18 officers; I know Sergeant Korosec was there. 19 Q: And where was that? 20 A: It was in the Park but I can't recall 21 exactly where it was -- 22 Q: We've heard evidence that the -- that 23 the officers had gathered at the kiosk or gatehouse at 24 the main gate. Does that assist in your recollection? 25 A: It doesn't assist in my recollection
121 but I wouldn't -- I wouldn't say that it's not true. 2 Q: Okay. And what do you recall 3 happened -- excuse me, what do you recall was going on 4 when you arrived where the group of officers were? 5 A: Well there was a large -- large 6 number of Natives in the Park and -- and many of them 7 were -- were upset and angry and there was Constable 8 Parks and Sergeant Korosec, in particular, were seemed to 9 be conversing trying to -- to settle things down or 10 trying to get some sort of a communication established or 11 something along that lines but it was -- it was quite 12 chaotic. 13 Different Natives were -- were very 14 visibly upset. I recall seeing some flares being thrown 15 towards the direction of officers which concerned me 16 quite a bit. 17 Q: And why did that concern you? 18 A: Well, as an officer -- as a safety 19 issue for everybody but, in particular, the officers or 20 us that were -- had the flares being thrown towards, that 21 -- that did concern me because I can see that it was a -- 22 it was an escalation of -- of the situation from just 23 anger to -- to actual, I would call it a dangerous 24 situation. 25 Q: And the flares, can you -- do you
131 recall today what the -- can you describe the -- the 2 flares? What kind of flares were they? 3 A: I don't know what kind of flares they 4 were, sir, no. 5 Q: And we've heard some evidence that 6 the -- what was thrown at the officers may have been one 7 (1) or two (2) firecrackers. 8 A: I -- I would say that was not the 9 case. 10 Q: And -- okay. And were you -- was a 11 fire -- was a flare thrown at you? 12 A: No. I -- the flare wasn't thrown at 13 me and it didn't -- I didn't have one land close enough 14 to me that I -- that I personally felt in danger. But 15 there were officers ahead of me in the area that -- 16 Q: And do you recall how many occupiers 17 were in the area when you were present? 18 A: I have noted in my notebook forty 19 (40) plus and I would say in my memory that -- that that 20 was a roundabout number. 21 Q: And how many police officers? 22 A: I would say there might have been -- 23 there might have been ten (10), twelve (12) maybe; that 24 would be about to my recollection as many. 25 Q: And what happened? The flares were
141 thrown, what was Sergeant Korosec doing? 2 A: Well, between trying to communicate 3 and calm the situation down or trying to establish some 4 sort of calm, he was also in communication with Incident 5 Commander Carson for I think seeking -- seeking direction 6 as to where we should go next. 7 Q: And did you know that or did you just 8 simply observe him on the telephone? 9 A: I was by Stan a couple of times and - 10 - and although it's not noted, I do know that he was in 11 communication, we were looking for direction. 12 Q: From the Incident Commander? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And did you know any of the 15 individuals -- the occupiers of the Park personally? 16 A: No, sir, I didn't. 17 Q: And what happened -- did anything of 18 note other than the flares happened while you were 19 present with the officers and the occupiers? 20 A: We had a -- we had a window smashed 21 out of a cruiser. 22 Q: And do -- what do you recall of that 23 incident? 24 A: I recall -- in my notes here I have 25 noted that:
151 "A large Native broke rear -- rear 2 window of the cruiser with a large 3 piece of wood." 4 And I -- I recall that happening. It was 5 somewhat off to the side of me but I recall that 6 happening. 7 Q: And do you recall what was said by -- 8 if anything by the person who broke the window or by any 9 of the other occupiers in the Park? 10 A: Just generally that we were to get 11 off their land and -- and get out of the Park. 12 Q: And they were saying to get off their 13 land? 14 A: I guess I was paraphrasing but we 15 were to get out of the Park. 16 Q: No, but I -- I was just asking you. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: I didn't quite hear you. 19 A: Yeah, that's why I said. We were to 20 get out of the Park; they didn't want us in the Park. 21 Q: And -- but -- and did they say to you 22 to get off their land? Do you recall them saying -- 23 A: I -- I wouldn't be able to quote 24 that, no, sir. 25 Q: No. And then what did you do?
161 A: Well, eventually we got out of there. 2 Q: You left? 3 A: We left. We -- we received 4 instructions to return to Forest Detachment and that's 5 what we did. 6 Q: And if you -- your notes indicate 7 that: 8 "ERT call Ipperwash Provincial Park. 9 Natives occupying Park." 10 Then there's a line. 11 A: "ACC" 12 Q: If you could just read that -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- entry? 15 A: "ACC [which is a company]. Poole and 16 Zacher to Park. Meet ERT members at 17 Park. Forty (40) plus natives in Park 18 throwing flares towards us from time to 19 time." 20 Do you want me to read the whole thing, 21 sir? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: "Large Native broke rear window of 25 cruiser with large of piece of wood.
171 Advised to muster to Forest Detachment. 2 Muster at Forest Detachment. Inspector 3 Carson Incident Commander." 4 Q: And then once you got to Forest 5 Detachment what happened? 6 A: Well, eventually we -- we -- after 7 being at Forest Detachment we went out, we set up 8 checkpoints and I was eventually set up in the -- in the 9 TOC which was located at East Parkway Drive. 10 Q: Okay. We'll come back to that. Now, 11 the -- when the cruiser was broken, the window was broken 12 in the cruiser, why was the person who broke the cruiser 13 not arrested? 14 A: Well, his -- his identity was -- was 15 known by other officers there and to effect an arrest 16 there would have been disastrous. 17 Q: And why do you say it would have been 18 disastrous? 19 A: It -- it would have escalated the 20 incident even more than it already was and it was at a 21 level at that time that -- that we needed to -- we needed 22 to leave. 23 Q: And when you say it had escalated to 24 a level, you needed to leave, what was the atmosphere at 25 the point you left in the Park? How would you describe
181 it? 2 A: It was a very dangerous situation for 3 us to be in. 4 Q: And why do you say that, Sergeant 5 Graham? 6 A: Because there were people that were 7 getting angrier and angrier and the level of -- the level 8 of the situation was escalating through the point of 9 flares, now damage to cars, and personally I didn't know 10 it was going to stop if we stayed there, so. 11 Q: And so the officers left the Park, 12 you then returned to Forest and as you've said 13 checkpoints were set up and you were assigned to act as 14 the communications person at the TOC on East Parkway 15 Drive? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And that was located in the MNR 18 parking lot? 19 A: Yes, sir, I believe it was an MNR 20 parking lot. 21 Q: It was a large parking lot? 22 A: It was a large parking lot, yes, sir. 23 Q: And it was on the south side of East 24 Parkway Drive? 25 A: Yes, sir, it would be the south side.
191 Q: And when you were assigned to the TOC 2 at the MNR parking lot was it in -- had -- what -- what 3 did you use for the TOC? 4 What kind of -- did you have a car? Were 5 you using a car? Was there a trailer? Was there a -- 6 A: No, there was a -- there was a 7 trailer. I believe it was a St. John's Ambulance trailer 8 or command -- command post. 9 Q: And the -- now your notes -- could 10 you just read your notes at the top of -- it's page 89 of 11 your notes. It's page 2 of Exhibit P-1371. 12 A: "Along with Number 2 District set up 13 roadblocks along Army Camp Road and 14 East Parkway Drive. Set up in TOC 15 located East Parkway Drive. Zero -- 16 oh." 17 Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of 18 the roadblocks? 19 A: The purpose of the roadblocks? 20 Q: Yes. Do you recall today? 21 A: I don't recall the specific purpose 22 of the roadblocks, no, sir, I don't. 23 Q: Would you recall anything about why 24 they were set up? 25 A: Call we -- we establish a presence in
201 the -- in the area. 2 Q: Okay. And did you man -- I take it 3 you did not man a roadblock that night? 4 A: No, sir, I didn't. 5 Q: And so you were at -- at the TOC at 6 the MNR parking lot and the person who was manning the 7 TOC at the MNR parking lot I understand was called Lima 8 2? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And the person -- Lima 2 was the ERT 11 Sergeant at the TOC? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And that changed from time to time? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it's my understanding Lima 1 was 16 the ERT Sergeant located at the Command Post when it was 17 set up in Forest? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Then at 08:40 it appears you were 20 relieved by Sergeant McLean of the Third District, is 21 that correct? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And he was the leader of the Third 24 District ERT? 25 A: He was one of the leaders, yes, sir.
211 Q: One of the leaders. And then at 2 09:00, shift debriefing, and at 09:20, off-duty? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And you were off duty until six 5 o'clock on September 5th? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And can you tell us what happened 8 when you came back on-duty on September 5th? 9 A: On September 5th I returned to duty 10 of 18:00 hours, received a briefing. 11 Q: Do you recall anything about the 12 briefing? 13 A: No, sir, I don't. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: My assignment that night was to be -- 16 my call sign was 24-20 and I was to be with Sergeant Van 17 Damme. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: We were to be in a cruiser as a 20 mobile unit, supervisory personnel. 21 Q: And what -- what did that -- what did 22 that entail being a -- with Sergeant Van Damme as a 23 supervisor? 24 A: We -- we wouldn't -- we wouldn't man 25 a road -- a checkpoint per se. What we would -- what we
221 would do is be available for -- if any incident required 2 a supervisor's attendance, we would -- we would drive 3 around and check on the well-being of the officers at the 4 checkpoints to see if they really, if they needed 5 anything or -- and -- and just basically to be available 6 if needed. 7 Q: And if I could step back for a moment 8 to the morning of -- during the night on September 4th to 9 September 5th when you were at the MNR parking lot as the 10 Lima 2. 11 What was your role as Lima 2? 12 A: I'd be the -- handle the 13 communications within the TOC. 14 Q: Yes. And what -- when you say handle 15 the communications within the TOC, what do you mean by 16 that? 17 A: Well if officers called in to -- to 18 report anything or to -- well I guess really just to 19 report in anything, they would -- they would call into 20 the TOC to Lima 2 and I would be the one responding. 21 Q: And then the communications that came 22 into Lima 2, to your knowledge could those communications 23 be heard by the person manning the communications at the 24 Command Post in Forest? 25 A: Yes, sir.
231 Q: And what about the officers on the 2 road? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And I understand that the officers on 5 the checkpoints had not only their car radios but also 6 portable radios? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And I understand as well that the 9 portable radios when carried by the officers received the 10 same communications as their car radios? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: In effect they were an extension of 13 the car radios? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And the system was set up so that all 16 of the officers in the area could hear the communications 17 of the other officers? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And was part of your role to relay 20 information if there were communication difficulties 21 between the officers and Lima 1? 22 If someone radioed to Lima 1 and was 23 having difficulty that you could relay the information. 24 A: I could, yes. 25 Q: Now, did you keep -- I note that you
241 don't have any notes of what happened during the evening 2 of -- the morning of September the 5th when you were on 3 duty as Lima 2 and why is that? 4 A: Well, as far as the communications 5 was concerned it was my understanding that the 6 communications would be taped anyway. They were scribed 7 -- there was a scribe as well. 8 Q: And what was the purpose of the 9 scribe? 10 A: Well, the scribe would be at the -- 11 at the Command Post, wasn't at the TOC. 12 Q: Yes. And was the purpose of the -- 13 what was your understanding of the purpose of the scribe? 14 A: The scribe would take notes of all 15 relevance -- all -- all relevant incident -- or all 16 relevant occurrences or happenings for the Incident 17 Commander. 18 Q: And so that communications that were 19 of importance to the Incident Commander would be noted by 20 the scribe? 21 A: Yes, that would be correct. 22 Q: That was your understanding? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And your notes simply set out your 25 various locations principally?
251 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Now, would you go back again to 3 September the 5th when you were back on-duty. It 4 indicates you were briefed by -- your notes indicate: 5 "On-duty Ipperwash incident. ERT 6 muster at Forest." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can you read that? 9 A: "Muster at Forest Detachment. 10 Briefed by Sergeants Dennis, Korosec, 11 Wright. Assignments by Sergeant 12 Slack." 13 Q: And the -- I think I asked you this 14 already, do you recall anything about that briefing? 15 A: No, sir. 16 Q: And then: 17 "18:58, units en route to relief 18 points. Assignment 24-20..." 19 A: With Van Damme. 20 Q: And 24-20 was simply the call number 21 assigned to your radio? 22 A: To our cruiser, yes. 23 Q: To your cruiser. And then what does 24 it read after "Van Damme"? Can you read that to us? 25 A: Yes.
261 "Check units throughout night. Advised 2 that units taking rocks at corner of 3 Army Camp and East Parkway. Attend. 4 Windshield damage to three (3) units. 5 Advised all units to stay back from 6 corner. Build-up of picnic tables in 7 area." 8 Q: And then at the last it says -- the 9 last entry is...? 10 A: 03:00? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: "Further checks of checkpoints. No-- 13 [sorry], no problems noted." 14 Q: Okay. So if we could just stop for a 15 moment. On the evening shift on the evening of September 16 the 5th there were four (4) sergeants on duty? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And they were, as I understand it, 19 one (1) sergeant as Lima 1 in the Command Post at Forest; 20 is that correct? 21 A: Yes, actually that was -- I should 22 say four (4) sergeants, there were four (4) leaders. 23 Q: Four (4) leaders? 24 A: Yes, sir. My -- my assistant leader 25 was Const -- at that time, Constable Wayde Jacklin.
271 Q: So Wayde Jacklin was -- because the 2 actual leader of your team was Sergeant Korosec and he 3 had different duties? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: So that for the Number 1 District ERT 6 team you were the team leader and Constable Jacklin, 7 Wayde Jacklin was your assistant? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: So that on -- at this point there 10 were three (3) sergeants and Constable Jacklin? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And two (2) sergeants were on the 13 road, you and Sergeant Van Damme? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And then Constable Jacklin, as we 16 will hear, was at the Forest Command Post at Lima 1? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the other sergeant was in the TOC 19 at the MNR parking lot as Lima 2? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Have you heard the phrase 'Road 22 Warriors' used? 23 A: Throughout my career -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- a few times, yes.
281 Q: And what does that phrase signify to 2 you? What does it mean? 3 A: Uniform police officers. 4 Q: As uniform police officers? 5 A: Yeah. That's a phrase usually used 6 by plainclothes officers. 7 Q: Oh, plainclothes officers talk about 8 uniform -- 9 A: Yes. Talk about uniform officers as 10 Road Warriors. 11 Q: And do you know why? 12 A: I guess because we're on the road and 13 they're not. 14 Q: I see. So it's a -- it's a term that 15 came from the uniform side of the -- side of the force as 16 opposed to the -- 17 A: No, from the -- 18 Q: I mean the -- 19 A: -- plainclothes side. 20 Q: -- plainclothes side of the force. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so when you were in the car with 23 Sergeant Van Damme, can you just give us an idea of what 24 you were doing or what -- what -- what the idea was of 25 having two (2) sergeants in a -- in a car?
291 Did you travel around? Did you stay in 2 one place? 3 Sort of, generally -- we'll come back to 4 the incident at the -- the parking lot, but during that 5 evening if you could just tell us what you did that 6 night. 7 A: Well we -- we drove around a bit and 8 checked on the checkpoints. Really what -- what we were 9 hoping to do was basically be not needed, not seen and 10 not heard. Is -- to be available to respond if -- if 11 needed but other than randomly driving around and 12 checking on the people that were at the checkpoints and 13 just putting in time until our shift was over is what we 14 had hoped to be doing. 15 Q: And were you -- did you spend time at 16 the Forest Command Post in your cruiser? 17 A: We were -- yeah, we would have, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Waiting in case you were 19 needed? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, at one -- at one point in time 22 on the evening of September the 5th, you were apprised of 23 -- learned of a -- a situation at the corner of East 24 Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 25 A: Yes, sir.
301 Q: And on the inside of your binder 2 there should be a small group of transcripts; it's marked 3 Exhibit P-1241? 4 A: In here? 5 Q: Yes. Do you see that there? 6 I believe that's it. Commissioner, this 7 has been marked, a collection of these transcripts, as P- 8 1241. 9 And there's a -- you've re -- prior to 10 attending today, you've reviewed, taken a look at Exhibit 11 P-1241? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And do you recall the information 14 that is set out in the transmissions in P-1241? 15 A: Yes. I recall that there was an 16 incident down at the -- at the corner. 17 Q: And do you recall -- the first 18 transcript in P-1241 is at 22:04 hours and there's a 19 request for someone to make patrol at the corner of East 20 Parkway and Army Camp Road. Do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And were you aware of that request by 23 Lima 2? 24 A: I -- I would have heard that, yes. 25 Q: And when it's -- when the -- Lima 2
311 is saying "Can you make the patrol?" that simply means 2 drive down there and take a look? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then at 22:06, car 2412 indicates 5 that they could take a drive down. And at 22:22 there's 6 a transmission from 2412. 7 And 2412 we believe -- we heard was 8 Constable Whelan and I believe Constable Japp that night? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you recall hearing these -- 11 the transmission at 22:22? 12 A: At 22:22 or 22:06? 13 Q: No, the -- I'm -- I passed that one - 14 - 20 -- did -- well, we'll start 22:06. Do you recall 15 hearing that? 16 A: Today I don't recall but I would 17 have -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- I would have heard that over the-- 20 Q: And the transmission at 22:22? 21 A: Oh, okay, sorry. Yes, I -- I would 22 have heard this as well. 23 Q: And then there's a transmission at 24 22:29 and this also appears at Tab 10 of your -- your 25 book and this transmission at 22:29, 2412 we know is
321 Whelan indicates: 2 "We've got -- we got Natives in the 3 parking lot here by that thing." 4 Then 2412: 5 "Can we have some assistance down here? 6 They're throwing stuff at us." 7 And then on the second page there's -- 8 it's attributed to you, it's Lima 2: 9 "Call Sergeant Graham from Lima 2. 10 SERGEANT GRAHAM: Go ahead. 11 We're just leaving Forest. We're en 12 route to that area." 13 And you've listened to this transmission 14 before you came here today? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And that was -- you are correctly 17 identified as Sergeant Graham on this transcript? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And so you listened to the call and 20 responded that you were going to leave Forest and go down 21 to the area? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And why was that, Sergeant Graham? 24 A: Well -- 25 Q: Why would you and Sergeant Van Damme
331 go down? 2 A: Well, because as the call continues 3 through we have officers that have gone from the point of 4 checking out an area to the point where they are now 5 receiving incoming projectiles and we were going down to 6 assist and assess the situation. 7 Q: And was that in your role as a 8 supervisor? 9 A: Yes, that would be one (1) of the 10 things as a supervisor we would -- I would do, yes. 11 Q: And then the next transcript on part 12 of P-1241 is a trans -- transmission at 22:37 where car - 13 - call number 2413 indicates that things were being 14 thrown at them. Do you recall hearing that transmission? 15 A: I would have heard that, yes, sir. 16 Q: And the next transmission at 22:41 17 again about windshields being broken, do you recall 18 hearing that transmission? 19 A: I -- I would have heard that too. 20 Q: And when you were -- when you arrived 21 down at the corner of East Parkway and Army Camp Road can 22 you tell us what you recall as being the scene when you 23 arrived there? 24 A: The only thing I recall is that had 25 cruisers there and there was damage to them. There was
341 damage to the cars and that I had told the officers to go 2 back to their original locations or pull back from the 3 corner. 4 Q: To pull back from the corner. So do 5 you recall today how -- where the cruisers were located 6 in relation to the corner? 7 A: No, I don't, sir. 8 Q: Do you recall today whether you could 9 see into the -- the sandy parking lot area? 10 A: I -- today I can't recall that, sir, 11 no. 12 Q: And -- but you do recall that you 13 instructed the officers to go back to their original 14 locations? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Is that correct? 17 A: Yes, sir. Yeah. 18 Q: And in your notes there's a note at 19 page 2 -- page 89 of your notes in Exhibit P-1371: 20 "Build-up of picnic tables in area." 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Do you know what that's referring to 23 today? Does that assist you? 24 A: That was a build-up of picnic tables 25 that was at the corner.
351 Q: Of the sandy parking lot, right? 2 A: In the area of the corner. Yes, sir, 3 by the sandy parking lot. 4 Q: And do you recall today what that 5 looked like? 6 A: No, sir, I don't. 7 Q: And you're being assisted by your 8 notes that says there was a build-up of picnic tables? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You don't have any recollection of 11 that? 12 A: I don't recall what it looked like, 13 no, sir. 14 Q: Okay. Now, you made a report to 15 Wayde Jacklin who was at the Command Post and the -- and 16 if I could ask you to turn to Tab 11. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 19 20 [BC =Sergeant Bob Cousineau] 21 [RG = Sergeant Rob Graham] 22 [WJ = Constable Wayde Jacklin] 23 24 BC: Bob Cousineau. 25 RG: Bob, it's Rob Graham.
361 BC: Yes, Rob? 2 RG: Could I speak to Wayde, please? 3 BC: Sure. Hold on. 4 WJ: Hi, Rob. 5 RG: Hi, how are you? 6 WJ: Got some damaged cars? 7 RG: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What I did is, I 8 pulled them back, put them back in the 9 original Checkpoints A and C. Right down 10 at that curve there, there's that beach 11 beside the - you know where we were 12 sitting there watching the stars that 13 night? 14 WJ: Yeah. 15 RG: Okay. Well, that's the beach there. They 16 were putting some picnic tables and 17 blocking it off. The guys went down there 18 and used a cruiser to push one of the - to 19 shove the picnic tables away, I guess. 20 We don't see the ... inaudible ... of the 21 people that live down there. Now, I don't 22 know whether there are or not. But if 23 there are, and they build it back up, we 24 may have to make arrangements with County 25 Roads to have some sort of a front-end
371 loader or something able to bear - to push 2 that barricade out of the way. There's no 3 way we're going to send the cruisers back 4 down there again. They're just sitting 5 ducks. 6 WJ: They're throwing from, like in the store 7 area? 8 RG: They're throwing it from inside the park. 9 WJ: Yeah, back by the store. That way, that 10 part of the park, right? That's what 11 you're talking? 12 RG: By the store? I don't understand by the 13 store. Right down by where the entrance 14 is. 15 WJ: Yeah. The main entrance? 16 RG: Yeah. 17 WJ: Oh. Okay. 18 RG: Yeah. Right down in there. 19 WJ: Oh, okay. Okay. I see where you're 20 talking about. Yeah. I'm talking about 21 the actual store which is right near the - 22 you know, by the kiosk just inside the 23 park. 24 RG: Oh, okay. 25 WJ: Where we were last night.
381 RG: Yeah. I guess they were back in that 2 area - 3 WJ: Okay. 4 RG: - somewhere. 5 WJ: Right. 6 RG: But they're in - they're well treed. 7 WJ: Sure. 8 RG: And like they're throwing some pretty 9 substantial rocks. They whacked the 10 cruiser going around the corner after I 11 dispersed them. 12 WJ: Hm-mmm. 13 RG: And I think it got hit pretty good. So - 14 WJ: Okay. 15 RG: Like I mean we're just sitting ducks 16 there. So it's really a matter of - even 17 at C Point. 18 WJ: Hm-mmm. 19 RG: Like I don't know. Maybe somebody's going 20 to want to leave with Linton or if he's 21 going to want to leave with Carson - like 22 if our guys are getting pelted with rocks. 23 WJ: Hm-mmm. 24 RG: I don't know what they want them to do. 25 Like, as I say, they're not throwing
391 pebbles - they're throwing damn good-sized 2 rocks. 3 WJ: Okay. 4 RG: So you better let them know - 5 WJ: Have the guys in C been fired upon, too, 6 with the rocks? 7 RG: What's that? 8 WJ: The guys at C, right in their position at 9 C, were fired at with the rocks - the 10 rocks were - 11 RG: No, no. 12 WJ: - fired at them, too? 13 RG: No. 14 WJ: They just went down to check out - 15 RG: No. They went down there to check out 16 what was going on at the curve there and - 17 WJ: Yeah. 18 RG: And once they broke that thing open, 19 that's when they got pelted with the 20 rocks. 21 WJ: Okay. 22 RG: Now the guys - I sent them back to C. I 23 don't know. They haven't reported 24 anything since. 25 WJ: Okay. That was Dave Hall, was it?
401 RG: Hmmm. 2 WJ: His car? 3 RG: You've got me. 4 WJ: Okay. The cars, they need - 5 RG: Three or 4 cars damaged here. 6 WJ: All right. Do they need to be replaced, 7 the cars? Or are they all right? 8 RG: No. I think they're all right. This is 9 windshield damage to most of them. 10 WJ: Okay. 11 RG: But it's, you know. [To someone else: Is 12 your car able to drive?] 13 Yeah, it's just windshields. 14 WJ: Okay. 15 RG: They're all drivable. They'll have to be 16 repaired. 17 WJ: Okay. Just to double-check here. Alpha, 18 do you have them right at the inside of 19 the TOC? 20 RG: We have Alpha right on Eastlawn Road right 21 at where the TOC is. 22 WJ: Okay. And Bravo? 23 RG: Bravo is actually - 24 WJ: On the road? 25 RG: They're on the road. They're actually the
411 security for TOC here now. They're 2 supposed to be interchanged. I don't know 3 whether John's doing that or not. That's 4 what he was plan - 5 WJ: Okay. So Alpha's staying on the road and 6 Bravo's in the parking lot? 7 RG: Bravo's in the parking lot. They're not 8 having anyone at Ipperwash and East Park - 9 WJ: Right. 10 RG: - anymore. 11 WJ: Yeah. 12 RG: So Charlie's back at the trailer park, and 13 Delta's still at - 14 WJ: Same spot. Right. 15 RG: And there's nobody down there. 16 Everybody's down at this corner now. 17 WJ: Okay. 18 RG: Anyway, that's the way it sits right now. 19 WJ: So as long as we stay away from them, 20 we'll be all right. 21 RG: Well, I guess so. Like I can't see 22 sitting there getting pelted all night. 23 WJ: Oh, no. For sure. No, the Inspector said 24 to - you know, hey, if you're going to be 25 fired upon with rocks over there, you
421 know, of course if you can grab somebody 2 outside the park, go ahead and grab them. 3 But if they're being fired upon from the 4 park - 5 RG: They're in the park. 6 WJ: Just clear out - 7 RG: Yeah. 8 WJ: - from that area. 9 RG: Yeah. 10 WJ: Yeah. 11 RG: So basically it doesn't take a rocket 12 scientist to get hit with enough rocks to 13 realize it hurts. 14 WJ: Yeah. 15 RG: All rightie? 16 WJ: Okay. 17 RG: All right. Just to let you know. 18 WJ: We've got the night vision here. 19 RG: Okay. We can come back and get it. 20 WJ: But. 21 RG: But? 22 WJ: It's the same night vision that we used to 23 have in the service and used, and it's got 24 a special battery. And I don't know what 25 they're talking about with these ôDö cells
431 and double ôAö cells. Because some of 2 them - we haven't gone through them all, 3 but one or two of them have batteries in 4 them but the rest of them don't. And 5 they're a real odd battery. 6 RG: Huh. So I take it they're not working, 7 then? 8 WJ: Well, I had one going here. I don't know 9 how they're doing with the others here, if 10 they have any working or not. 11 RG: Okay. Well, we can head back that way and 12 see what's available and figure out - 13 WJ: They're sure not the quality of the ones 14 the canine handlers have. That's for 15 sure. 16 RG: No. Oh, well. What a surprise. 17 WJ: They're big and they're heavy. 18 RG: Yeah. Well, that's just great. Anyway. 19 WJ: Okay? 20 RG: All right. But anyway, I just wanted to 21 let you know. Because I think what's 22 going to happen - if they start pelting 23 the guys at C. 24 WJ: Yeah. 25 RG: I'm not going to have them sit there.
441 WJ: No. 2 RG: Fuck it. 3 WJ: Yeah, if they get pelted there, yeah, go 4 ahead. Yeah. 5 RG: Yeah, we'll be pulling them. All right. 6 WJ: Okay. 7 RG: Okay. 8 WJ: Yeah. Good. 9 RG: See you. Bye 10 WJ: Bye now. 11 End of conversation 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And that is your voice on the 17 transcript? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And it's also the voice of Wayde 20 Jacklin? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the initial voice was Sergeant 23 Bob Cousineau? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And I would ask that this transcript
451 be marked the next exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1372, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1372: Transcript of Region 03, Rob 6 Graham, Wayde Jacklin, 7 September 05, 1995, 22:49 8 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, 9 Logger tape number 4, Track 10 1, Disc 2 of 3. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And the -- prior to listening to this 14 transmission in readiness for your attendance at the 15 Inquiry, did you have any recollection of this call 16 beyond -- at all? 17 A: Just that I -- that I made the call. 18 Q: And the -- you say, part way down the 19 first page of Exhibit P-1372: 20 "What I did is, I pulled them back, put 21 them back in the original checkpoints, 22 'A' and 'C', right down at that curve 23 there there's a beside, you know, where 24 we were sitting there watching the 25 stars that night."
461 And what are you referring to there? 2 A: Earlier on in the -- in the summer, 3 and I can't recall what day it was, we were actually out 4 and some fellow was down by the beach with a large 5 telescope, looking at the constellations and we actually 6 took some time and learned some fascinating things about 7 the stars. 8 Q: And so that you were actually using 9 that to try to place for Constable Jacklin where you 10 were? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And where you were was at the 13 intersection of where Army Camp Road turns into East 14 Parkway Drive, that's where this incident happened? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And then you go on and talk in the 17 next paragraph, it's recorded that: 18 "They were putting some picnic tables 19 and blocking it off." 20 And you're referring there to the sandy 21 parking lot that runs from the intersection up to the 22 beach? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: To the west of the Provincial Park? 25 A: Yes, that would be right.
471 Q: "And the guys went down there and 2 used a cruiser to push one of the shove 3 -- the picnic tables away, I guess." 4 And what was the source of your 5 information as to the picnic tables being shoved by a 6 cruiser? 7 A: That would have been one of the 8 officers at the scene. 9 Q: And do you recall today anything 10 about anything else that the officer may have told you? 11 A: No, sir, I don't. 12 Q: Do you recall today who the officer 13 was who told you they used a cruiser to push the picnic 14 tables away? 15 A: No, sir. 16 Q: Do you recall if the officers 17 indicated to you whether there were any people near the 18 picnic tables or on the picnic tables when the picnic 19 tables were shoved? 20 A: I don't -- I don't recall any of it, 21 sir. Until I heard that tape, I didn't even recall that 22 the picnic tables were pushed by a cruiser. 23 Q: Okay. You didn't recall this until 24 you heard the tape? 25 A: That's right.
481 Q: And the tape -- what you're recalling 2 now is with the assistance of the tape? You can't recall 3 anything beyond that? 4 A: As far as the picnic tables -- 5 Q: As to what happened in the parking 6 lot? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And then you indicate that if: 9 "But if they are and they've..." 10 There's a question, and it's inaudible. 11 "We don't see something of the people 12 that lived down there. 13 Now I don't know whether they are -- 14 they are not, but if they are and 15 they've built it back up, we may have 16 to make some arrangements with County 17 Roads to have some sort of a front-end 18 loader or something, able to bar -- to 19 push that barricade out of the way." 20 And do you recall today what your concern 21 was as expressed in this paragraph of P-1372? 22 A: Specifically -- specifically, no. In 23 reading it and thinking back now, my question is probably 24 whether the people were living in the -- in the private 25 homes that were down in that area. Just to the --
491 Q: West of the -- 2 A: West, yes. 3 Q: And there's a concern about pushing 4 the barricade out of the way and can you recall today 5 with the benefit of the transcript of what your concern 6 was about pushing it out of the way? 7 A: Whether it would have impeded access 8 to the private homes. 9 Q: Okay. And the -- you indicate there 10 -- Wayde Jacklin asked: 11 "They're throwing, like in the store 12 area?" 13 And you indicate they're throwing it from 14 inside the Park. 15 And the -- I'm going to put up on the 16 screen a copy of -- this is a copy of Exhibit P-40 which 17 is a map of the -- sketch of the -- the Army Camp and the 18 Provincial Park. 19 And the Army Camp Road just to put you in 20 place, runs along the edge of the Military Reserve, it 21 turns left over to East Parkway. Actually I may have a 22 better... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
501 Q: This is a copy of Exhibit P-437B 2 which was marked by -- and -- Inspector John Carson with 3 respect to the evening of September the 6th. 4 So don't -- I'm not asking you to comment 5 on the locations of the checkpoints, but the -- do you 6 recognize the photograph in -- that's up on the screen, 7 the general area, Sergeant Graham? 8 A: Yes, sir, I do. 9 Q: And you'll note that the Provincial 10 Park is on the right labelled, "Former Ipperwash 11 Provincial Park" do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And Army Camp Road is marked and it 14 runs north towards the lake which is at the top of the 15 picture? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then there's -- at the 18 intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway, there's 19 a yellow dot, Checkpoint 'A', and then a line -- a blue 20 line and that blue line is on East Parkway? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Is that correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thanks. And then the sandy parking 25 lot runs north from the intersection up towards the
511 beach; is that your recollection? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: And at the time, it's not on this 4 picture because the picture was taken later, the Camp 5 store was in an area just to the east of the sandy 6 parking lot. Do you recall that? 7 A: I don't recall that that's where the 8 store was, no. 9 Q: You don't recall. And the main 10 entrance to the parking lot is actually -- I mean to the 11 Provincial Park is actually at the point where the 'I' is 12 on this map and it runs into an area where the road 13 splits. 14 And the -- it's my understanding that the 15 kiosk was in that area just above the 'I' where you can 16 see the road split there. 17 Is that your recollection? 18 A: I -- I don't recall that but I don't 19 dispute it either. 20 Q: Okay. And when you were talking to 21 Wayde Jacklin and he asked you where the rocks were being 22 thrown from, you said they were being thrown from inside 23 the Park. 24 And you indicated at the top of page 2, 25 "by the store":
521 "I don't understand, by the store. 2 Right down by where the entrance is." 3 And he says: 4 "The main entrance?" 5 You say, "Yes." 6 And there's a laser beam -- there's a 7 laser on your desk there, Sergeant Graham. Do you see 8 the -- yeah. 9 Could you point out on the map what you're 10 referring to as where the rocks were being thrown from? 11 A: Right in here, inside the Park. 12 Q: And so the entrance that you're 13 talking about -- 14 A: Was the main entrance down into the 15 sandy parking lot. 16 Q: And so the -- it's the main entrance 17 in the sandy parking lot and there was -- do you recall 18 whether there was a fence running along the parking lot 19 and the -- the border of the parking lot and the -- and 20 the Park? 21 A: I recall, but not from that night. 22 From later actions of the next morning I recall that. 23 But from that night, I don't -- 24 Q: You didn't know? 25 A: No.
531 Q: But -- so that when you were talking 2 to Wayde Jacklin, you were talking about the area -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- leading out to the -- to the sandy 5 parking, not the main entrance into the camp? 6 A: No. No, sir. I -- Wayde Jacklin's 7 knowledge of the Park is much more than mine. 8 Q: And it would appear from this -- from 9 this transmission that you and Wayde -- Wayde Jacklin 10 misunderstood where the rocks were being thrown from? 11 A: He could have misunderstood it from 12 my -- from my -- from our conversation, yes. 13 Q: And you were referring to down by the 14 sandy parking lot, and he may have been referring to the 15 road near the main entrance to -- that leads to the 16 kiosk? 17 A: That's possible. 18 Q: But just from your perspective, 19 you're talking about the area right on to the sandy 20 parking lot? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Then the checkpoints, he asked, then 23 you say: 24 "Now the guys I sent them back to 'C'." 25 And Checkpoint 'C', on that evening, do
541 you recall where Checkpoint 'C' was? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And it's my understanding -- can you 6 point out on -- do you have a recollection where 7 Checkpoint 'C' was, and don't worry about the Checkpoint 8 'C' that's shown on this map -- 9 A: Yeah, no. Just -- just from going 10 through this, Checkpoint 'C' it would have been along 11 Army Camp somewhere. 12 Q: And it refers to -- there's a 13 reference to a trailer park. It's my understanding that 14 there was a trailer park here called Sunnyside Trailer 15 Park. Does that assist? 16 And was Checkpoint 'C' near Sunnyside 17 Trailer Park? 18 A: It was by a trailer park, so -- 19 Q: So -- and -- 20 A: -- I would say that's probably it. 21 Q: -- then you indicated that Checkpoint 22 'A' was on the road near the -- if you look at page 4, it 23 says: 24 "Just to double check, Alpha, do we 25 have them right at the inside of the
551 TOC?" 2 You say: 3 "We have Alpha right on Eastlawn 4 Road..." 5 You mean East Parkway Road, right at where 6 the TOC is? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So the TOC was in the MNR parking lot 9 in this area, and Checkpoint 'A' was on the road by the - 10 - by the MNR parking lot? 11 A: That's what I reported there, yes. 12 Q: And Bravo, it's: 13 "They're on the road, they're actually 14 the security for the TOC here now. 15 They're supposed to be interchanged." 16 And then Wayde Jacklin says: 17 "So Alpha's staying on road and Bravo's 18 in the parking lot?" 19 And you say: 20 "Bravo's in the parking lot. They're 21 not having anyone at Ipperwash and East 22 Parkway any more." 23 And so that Bravo was in the parking lot 24 near the St. John's Ambulance and Alpha was on the road? 25 A: Yes, that's what it says.
561 Q: Okay. And on page 5 of Exhibit P- 2 1372, there's a reference: 3 "Oh, no, for sure, no. The inspector 4 said too, you know, hey, if you're 5 going to be fired upon with rocks over 6 there, you know, of course, if you can 7 grab somebody outside the Park go ahead 8 and grab them. But if they're being 9 fired upon from the Park, they're in 10 the Park, just clear out, yeah, from 11 that area." 12 So what did you take from that exchange? 13 A: Just if that somebody was outside the 14 Park and -- and could be arrested for -- if they were 15 damaging cruisers that we were to do so but we were to 16 basically clear out. 17 Q: If the people were inside the Park 18 you were just to leave? 19 A: Yes, we weren't going in the Park. 20 Q: And you say you weren't going in the 21 Park; what instructions did you have if any with respect 22 to going into the Park? 23 A: My recollection is that we -- we 24 weren't going into the Park. 25 Q: You weren't going into the Park?
571 A: No, we weren't to go in the Park. 2 Q: Okay. Then later that night there 3 was a report of some gunfire. Do you recall that, 4 Sergeant Graham? 5 A: I do. 6 Q: And there's -- you'll find on the 7 inside of the book or you may have pulled it out copies 8 of P-1226 and P-1227, transmissions at 23:42 and 23:46 9 respectively, by Larry Parks. 10 And do you recall hearing these 11 transmissions? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I remember hearing Larry Parks call 16 in about gunfire, yes. 17 Q: And what do you recall about what he 18 said. Do you have any independent recollection? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: And does the -- looking at Exhibits 21 P-1226 and P-1227 assist your recollection? 22 A: No further than just remembering that 23 it was Larry Parks that called in. 24 Q: And what difference if any did this 25 report make to you?
581 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Well, just made us aware of the fact 4 of the possibility of -- of firearms in the area. 5 Q: And had you been -- you were aware 6 that the people who were living in the Army Camp and had 7 occupied the Army Camp were hunters? 8 Were you aware of that, that many of the 9 people were hunters? Had you been told that? 10 A: I don't specifically recall being 11 told they were hunters. 12 Q: And had you been told anything about, 13 do you recall, prior to this, about the possibility of 14 hunting rifles or weapons in the Army Camp? 15 A: Specifically, what I was told, I -- I 16 don't recall specifically being told anything. I was 17 certainly aware of the possibilities as in anywhere 18 really, the possibility of firearms. 19 Q: Now, when you say, is "anywhere," -- 20 anywhere, what do you mean by that? 21 A: Well, there's the possibility of -- 22 of firearms being in many different instances, but 23 personally I was certainly aware of the possibility that 24 there could be firearms in the Army Camp area. 25 Q: And -- but -- and you were aware
591 there could be firearms anywhere, particularly in the 2 country if many people are hunters? 3 A: Oh, yes. 4 Q: And they have rifles whether they're 5 Aboriginal, non Aboriginal? 6 A: Oh, certainly. 7 Q: And that's what you meant by guns 8 being anywhere? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, there was a -- if I could ask 11 you to turn to Tab 8 of the book in front of you? And 12 this is a copy of Exhibit P- -- or extracts from Exhibit 13 P-426, Inquiry Document 1002419. 14 And there's an entry at page 45 and it's 15 actually the fourth page in on your copy, Sergeant -- 16 A: I'm sorry, sir, can you repeat the 17 tab? I think I'm on the wrong one. 18 Q: It's Tab 8, sir. 19 A: Oh, sorry, Tab 8? 20 Q: Yes, sir. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And you will see that there's an 25 entry at the top of the page at 21:25 hours:
601 "Rob Graham reports have a fire at the 2 gate. Dumpsters and signs blocking the 3 Park entrance and Matheson. By way of 4 Camp entrance, parallel with our 5 checkpoint. Approximately ten (10) 6 Natives standing around on the 7 Ipperwash beach on the east and that 8 part of the chain is down. Inspector 9 Linton and Rob Graham can look at end 10 of Ipperwash Beach." 11 And do you recall making this report on 12 the evening of September the 5th? 13 A: I don't, sir. 14 Q: And at the end of Ipperwash Beach, do 15 you recall where that was? Was that at the end of 16 Ipperwash Road? 17 A: I -- I don't recall anything about 18 it. 19 Q: Do you have any recollection of this 20 other than this? 21 A: No, sir, I don't. 22 Q: Then on page 47 which is two (2) 23 pages on -- on page 46 there's a report of -- at 22:43 of 24 you going down to the location with respect to the rocks 25 and then at 22:56 a report of your call to Wayde Jacklin.
611 And than at 00:47 hours on page 47: 2 "Rob Graham reports lots of activity on 3 Park. Hearing front-end loader and 4 dump truck working; unknown doing 5 what." 6 Do you recall what you were referring to 7 when you made this report at 00:47 hours on the morning 8 of September the 6th? 9 A: No, sir, I don't. 10 Q: And does this entry assist you at 11 all? 12 A: Not at all. 13 Q: Okay. Then the -- if you go back to 14 your notes at Tab 7. Do you -- read your notes at the 15 top of page 90 in your notebook, page 3 of Exhibit P- 16 1371? 17 A: Starting at 06:55? 18 Q: Yes, sir. 19 A: "Return Forest Detachment. Advised 20 Detective Sergeant Wright of situation 21 at Army Camp and East Parkway. Decided 22 that our ERT would clear the area. 23 Muster at TOC site. Drive to area, 24 secure area while picnic tables cleared 25 by 2 District ERT.
621 Two (2) males at checkpoint; one 2 wearing MNR coat, one in blue shirt. 3 All tables removed. No incidents. 4 09:15 off-duty." 5 Q: And do you have any recollection, 6 independent recollection, as to your discussion with 7 Sergeant Wright? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: And what -- what view if anything did 10 you have with respect to the picnic tables? 11 A: What -- what view did I have? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: I felt they should be removed. 14 Q: And why was that, sir? 15 A: I just thought that it would be a -- 16 a -- it could continue to -- to cause problems for us 17 from a policing standpoint. 18 Q: Okay. And why was that? 19 A: I don't know specifically why, one 20 (1) specific reason, but there were a number of things 21 that could happen with -- with the picnic tables as far a 22 building them up again, so I just -- I just thought they 23 should be removed. 24 Q: Fair enough. And you indicate that 25 you went down, I take it, with part of the Number 1
631 District ERT team? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And when you went down to the Army 4 Camp Road and East Parkway to the sanding parking lot, 5 what was the role of your ERT team? 6 A: We were to secure the area or be a 7 presence in the area while the picnic tables were 8 removed. 9 Q: And when you say secure the area, you 10 mean -- what do you mean by that, sir? 11 A: Well we -- secure the area, establish 12 either, I don't, we call it a perimeter or just be -- be 13 in the area while the other offices from 2 District were 14 actually physically removing the picnic tables. 15 Q: And there's a -- and that's what you 16 did? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And there's a reference, there are -- 19 it says: 20 "Two (2) males on checkpoint, one 21 wearing MNR coat, one [something] blue 22 shirt." 23 A: "One in blue shirt." 24 Q: And when you say checkpoint, what are 25 you referring to?
641 A: Well, what I'm referring to there is 2 that location. 3 Q: At the sandy parking lot? 4 A: Where the picnic tables were. 5 Q: And the -- do you recall today 6 anything more -- anything about these two (2) 7 individuals? 8 A: Just that they ran back into the 9 Park. 10 Q: Okay. And then after the picnic 11 tables were removed do you -- you went off-duty? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And do you recall meeting Les 14 Kobayashi? Do you know who Les Kobayashi is? 15 A: I do know who he is, yes. 16 Q: And if you look at Tab 42 and who did 17 you know -- what was your understanding of Les Kobayashi 18 was? 19 A: Les Kobayashi was the superintendent 20 of -- 21 Q: Okay. And had you met him prior to 22 the morning of September the 6th? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And do you recall speaking to Mr. 25 Kobayashi about the events of the evening of September
651 the -- the 5th? 2 A: I don't recall speaking to him, no, 3 sir. 4 Q: And at Tab 42, is a copy of Exhibit 5 P-882, Inquiry Document 1000343. 6 And at page 6, and the handwritten page 7 number is page 978. In paragraph 21 and 22 and paragraph 8 20 -- paragraph 20 in this Affidavit, Mr. Kobayashi 9 indicates that approximately 7:30 in the morning of 10 September 6th: 11 "I met with Sergeant Rob Graham. He 12 informed me that there was a barricade 13 made out of numerous park picnic tables 14 that had been erected during the 15 previous night at County Road 10. 16 I subsequently authorised the use of 17 MNR staff to remove the barricade at 18 the request of the OPP. This was done 19 once the people who erected the 20 barricade had gone." 21 Then it refers to a copy of the OPP 22 report. And then at twenty-one (21): 23 "At same time, I was informed by 24 Sergeant Graham that one of his team 25 members had heard a hundred (100) to a
661 hundred and fifty (150) rounds of 2 automatic gunfire from the Park during 3 the night." 4 And in paragraph 22: 5 "Sergeant Graham also informed me that 6 OPP vehicles had been damaged during 7 the night. Press release confirming 8 this information is Exhibit I to my 9 Affidavit." 10 Do you recall this discussion with -- a 11 discussion with Les Kobayashi? 12 A: No, sir, I don't. 13 Q: And do you recall at -- giving him 14 this information? If you don't recall the discussion, 15 you don't -- 16 A: I don't -- I don't recall the 17 discussion, no. 18 Q: You're not saying that it didn't 19 happen, you just simply don't recall? 20 A: I don't recall it, no. 21 Q: Then you went off-duty at 9:15 on the 22 morning of September the 6th? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And then you came back on duty the 25 evening of September the 6th?
671 A: Yes. 2 Q: And prior to coming back on duty, you 3 had a conversation with Stan Korosec; is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And if you turn to Tab 12 of the book 6 in front of you, you'll find a copy of Exhibit P-1156. 7 And this is a telephone call between you 8 and Stan Korosec on the afternoon of September 6th at 9 17:13 hours, plus, I guess this one may need seven (7) 10 minutes as well, so it would be 17:20 hours, and it 11 refers to the need for an Oscar team to go out that 12 evening. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And you've listened to this 15 transmission and you can confirm that it was your voice 16 along with Stan Korosec and -- on that trans -- on the 17 tape? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And the -- how did it come about? Do 20 you recall how it came about that you were calling in to 21 speak to Stan Korosec? 22 A: Today, I don't recall how it came 23 about. I think, I can only go through this to... 24 Q: But it in -- it's -- the call on page 25 1 indicates that Stan Korosec says:
681 "Okay, I need two (2) guys." 2 You say: 3 "Yeah." 4 Stan Korosec says: 5 "Okay. 6 ROB GRAHAM: I already assigned them. 7 I got -- I assigned Mortimer and 8 Whelan. 9 STAN KOROSEC: Okay. In Greens? 10 ROB GRAHAM: Yeah. 11 STAN KOROSEC: Eagle Headsets. 12 ROB GRAHAM: Yeah. 13 STAN KOROSEC: They're going to be 14 doing some -- doing an Oscar position. 15 I'll tell you where and when and all 16 that. 17 ROB GRAHAM: Yeah. 18 STAN KOROSEC: So bring them -- or 19 have them come down in greens. 20 ROB GRAHAM: Yeah." 21 And then the -- by this time you had 22 already assigned Mortimer and Whelan? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And so that there must have been a -- 25 some transmission or communication before that?
691 A: Some sort of communication I would 2 think before I went off-duty to check in before we left. 3 Q: And -- but you can't remember today? 4 A: I can't remember. 5 Q: And an Oscar position is what? 6 A: An observation position. 7 Q: An observation position? 8 A: And then there's a reference on page 9 2 to the Batmobile and do you recall today what the 10 Batmobile was? 11 A: I don't recall what it looked like. 12 I know they did have a car that they were referring to as 13 the Batmobile. 14 Q: Batmobile. And then there's a 15 reference on page 3 to ASP batons and you'll see Stan 16 Korosec says: 17 "I'll see you at 6:30. 18 ROB GRAHAM: Yeah. 19 STAN KOROSEC: We've got ASP batons 20 in. We'll get trained in them tonight. 21 ROB GRAHAM: We've already been 22 trained in them. 23 STAN KOROSEC: We have? 24 ROB GRAHAM: Last personal safety 25 training everybody was trained."
701 So that your team, the District 1 ERT 2 team, had already been trained in the use of ASP batons? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And do you recall today how long that 5 training took? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: And then there's a discussion about 8 Nomex -- Nomex which, as I understand it from what Stan 9 Korosec says to you on page 4, is fireproof material? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then he refers to a fogger pepper 12 spray from TRU for Checkpoint Charlie. 13 And were you aware -- do you have any 14 recollection of this discussion about pepper spray at 15 Checkpoint Charlie? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And do you recall today whether you 18 had received any report on the evening of September the 19 5th that pepper spray had been used? 20 A: I don't recall that, no. 21 Q: And do you recall Constable Gransden 22 being at the sandy parking lot in relation to the picnic 23 table incident on the evening of September the 5th? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: You don't?
711 A: No. 2 Q: And do you have any recollection 3 today in this -- where Sergeant Korosec says for 4 Checkpoint Charlie with respect to the pepper spray you 5 say: 6 "Yeah." 7 Sergeant Korosec says: 8 "Tell Gransden." 9 You say: 10 "Okay. 11 SERGEANT KOROSEC: And RG." 12 You say: 13 "Have they built up that area again or 14 is that... 15 "SK: No. 16 RG: No?" 17 Do you know why he wanted you to tell 18 Gransden about the pepper spray? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. And you have no recollection 21 today? 22 A: I don't. 23 Q: And then from your notes you went on 24 duty at -- if we could go back to Tab 7 Exhibit P-1371 25 page 3.
721 And could you just read the -- the first 2 page of your notes? 3 A: For September the 6th? 4 Q: Yes please. 5 A: "18:00. On duty ERT, reference 6 Ipperwash. Assigned to Command Post. 7 Communications with TOC. Inspector 8 Linton IC. Relayed to Stan -- or to 9 Sergeant Korosec of problems reported 10 by Detective Sergeant Wright at Park 11 area. Wright to brief Korosec. 12 Resumed communications with Command 13 Post. Make phone calls for Detective 14 Sergeant Wright, reference threats to 15 Native officers." 16 Q: Okay. And there's a time, beside the 17 -- after Inspector Linton, I see of 19:10. 18 A: Yes. Yes. 19 Q: And is that the correct time? 20 A: No, sir, it's not. 21 Q: And when did you learn that -- 22 realized that was the wrong time? 23 A: Some months ago. 24 Q: And the next time is, with respect to 25 making phone calls, is 23:45?
731 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Is that the time? And do you recall 3 today when you went on -- started acting as Lima 1? 4 A: No, I don't recall exactly what time 5 I actually got into the -- 6 Q: Command Post? 7 A: -- the Command Post trailer. 8 Q: And as I understand it the Command 9 Post trailer, you went in the main door, turned right, 10 you were in the communications section? 11 A: I couldn't -- I couldn't tell you 12 that. 13 Q: Okay. You can't remember? 14 A: I don't remember. 15 Q: And do you remember on the evening of 16 September the 6th who else was in the communication 17 trailer? 18 A: The communication or the Command 19 Post? 20 Q: I mean, the Command -- the 21 communications section of the Command Post. 22 A: Just -- just through the assistance 23 of -- of listening to tapes, I -- I know that Andrew 24 Archibald was there. 25 Q: Yes. And Andrew Archibald was a
741 civilian radio operator? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And then -- 4 A: I -- I know that within the trailer 5 itself, I know Inspector Linton was in there. As far as 6 the communications there -- there was a number of people 7 throughout the night that ended up in and out of that 8 trailer. 9 Q: Okay. And as Lima 1 on the evening 10 of September the 6th, your role was -- can you tell us 11 what your role was? 12 A: My role would have been the ERT 13 representative with -- within the Command Post. I'd be a 14 resource -- resource person or such to the Incident 15 Commander. 16 Q: Okay. And Bob Cousineau, Sergeant 17 Cousineau, his name appears in some of the transcripts -- 18 was Bob Cousineau at the evening of September the 6th? 19 A: Yes, he was. 20 Q: And what was Bob Cousineau? He's 21 Sergeant Bob Cousineau? 22 A: That's right at that time. 23 Q: And what was his role? 24 A: He was a Communications Sergeant. 25 His role would have been -- he's a resource person to the
751 Incident Commander as far as communications situations. 2 Q: So would the -- putting ourselves 3 back to the evening of September the 6th, there was you 4 as ERT -- as Lima 1, there was Sergeant Cousineau as a 5 Communications Sergeant, there was Mr. Archibald as a 6 civilian radio operator and there may have been others 7 from time to time? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And just briefly -- before we go 10 through some of these transmissions or the -- the -- 11 looking at the transcripts, can you tell us what you 12 remember about the early part of the evening before the 13 incident in the sandy parking lot? Do you have any 14 specific recollection? 15 A: The only recollection I have is that 16 Mark Wright had been to -- Detective Sergeant Wright had 17 been at an incident or had information of an incident and 18 was coming back to -- to brief Stan Korosec and I relayed 19 that information to Sergeant Korosec. 20 Q: And anything else? 21 A: Not -- not that I can think of. 22 Q: And when you were on-duty that night, 23 did you carry a portable radio? 24 A: Yes, I -- I would have had a portable 25 radio.
761 Q: That's normally -- you would carry a 2 portable radio? 3 A: I have it on my belt, yes. 4 Q: And now I would ask you to turn to 5 Tab 13 and the -- at Tab 13 is a copy of a transmission 6 at 11:06. 7 And you've listened to all of these 8 transmissions prior to coming here today; is that 9 correct? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And in preparation for attending; is 12 that correct? 13 A: Yes. Yes. 14 Q: And at Tab 13, Exhibit P-1106, Lima 1 15 on this transmission, you've identified as Sergeant Dave 16 McLean? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And it's not you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And Sergeant Dave McLean was from the 21 3 District day shift? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And then at Tab -- do you recall 24 hearing this transmission? 25 A: No, sir.
771 Q: But you heard transmissions as they 2 came in during the evening? 3 A: I did throughout, yes. 4 Q: Yeah. And the Exhibit, P-1318, at 5 18:30, this Lima 1, on this transmission again is Dave 6 McLean? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at Tab 15, Exhibit P-1107, at 9 19:25 you could not identify who was being -- who was 10 Lima 1? 11 A: that's right. 12 Q: And again as well, Tab 16, P-1110, 13 the report from car 2464 who we know was Weverink and 14 Spencer who were down at the beach area, were -- do you 15 recall today a patrol car being down at the north end of 16 the sandy parking lot down by the beach? 17 A: I don't recall that, sir. 18 Q: And you couldn't identify who -- your 19 -- you don't appear in this transmission? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And at Exhibit P-111, at Tab 16, and 22 do you recall hearing this transmission from Spencer and 23 Weverink? 24 A: I don't recall it. 25 Q: And you don't appear in this
781 transmission? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Then at Tab 16 -- I mean, excuse me, 4 Tab 18 there's a copy of Exhibit P-1115. It's a 5 transmission -- radio transmission from Mark Wright at 6 19:54 hours and this transmission, do you recall hearing 7 this transmission? 8 A: I recall the transmission from Mark 9 Wright about a situation so this -- this would be -- I 10 would say this would be it. 11 Q: And the name of the person -- the 12 person who's at the camp post -- Command Post was Mr. 13 Archibald? 14 A: He was the civilian radio operator, 15 yes. 16 Q: And it's his voice who's heard on the 17 transcript as being the Command Post person? You 18 identified him? 19 A: I believe so, yes. Yes. 20 Q: And then at the last entry, where 21 Mark Wright says" 22 23 "Ten (10) minutes away. From the 24 Command Post." 25 Then the command post:
791 "That's 10-4. Lima 1 is standing right 2 by here. Heard it all and so did the 3 Inspector." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And at that point, do you recall, 6 were you Lima 1? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you have any specific 9 recollection as to what you did or any recollection, 10 strike the word 'specific', any recollection as to what 11 you did after you heard the transmission from Mark 12 Wright? 13 A: My only recollection is that I did go 14 in and speak to Sergeant Korosec? 15 Q: And do you have any recollection of 16 what you said? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: And do you have any recollection of 19 receiving any instruction from Sergeant Korosec? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And during the evening of September 25 the 6th, did you remain in the Command Post all the time
801 or did you go in and out? 2 A: I was in and out of the Command Post, 3 sir. 4 Q: And why did you go in and out? 5 A: Well, at different times to -- 6 throughout the night to do things at the request of the 7 Incident Commander, depending on what time of the -- at 8 what stage of the evening we're talking about. 9 I did different things throughout the 10 night. Some of them were inside the Command Post, some 11 were more in the Detachment. 12 Q: And did you leave from time to time 13 because of the number of people there, because it got too 14 crowded? 15 A: Well, that was later on in the night. 16 Eventually I was out of the Command Post basically for -- 17 Q: That was later on? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, the -- if I can ask you to turn 20 to Tab 8 please, it's Exhibit P-426 Inquiry Document 21 1002419. 22 And if you would turn please to page 73 23 which is -- these are simply extracts to make it easier, 24 Commissioner. It's about the sixth -- fifth page -- 25 sixth page in. It's 73 at the top.
811 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And at 19:50 there's a note: 4 "Rob Graham reports there's reports of 5 a vehicle driving on the beach west of 6 Park area." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And do you recall today making that 10 report? 11 A: I don't recall that. 12 Q: And do you recall the source of the 13 information? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: And then at 19:55 there's the report: 16 "Mark Wright reports via police radio 17 ten (10) Natives with baseball bats 18 near the road who have apparently 19 damaged a private vehicle." 20 And that refers to the transmission from 21 Sergeant Wright at Tab 18. Was that your understanding? 22 A: Yes, I would say that's right. 23 Q: And in that transmission Exhibit P- 24 1115 Mark Wright says: 25 "Eight (8) individuals -- up to eight
821 (8) individuals and not ten (10)." 2 Do you have any idea how it went from up 3 to eight (8) individuals to ten (10), Sergeant Graham? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: You -- 6 A: No. No, I don't. 7 Q: Now, you can pull that mic a little 8 closer to you here. Having a -- 9 A: Sorry. 10 Q: Great. And then it says at 19:55: 11 "Dale Linton to Rob Graham suggesting 12 moving four (4) from 'B', two (2) from 13 'D', and one (1) K-9 to beach area. 14 Await Mark Wright's report." 15 Do you have any recollection of being 16 given -- having this discussion with Inspector Linton? 17 A: I don't recall that, no. 18 Q: And does this note help you at all? 19 A: It doesn't help me remember it, no. 20 Q: Yeah. And the -- do you recall if 21 you did anything as a result of a discussion with the 22 Inspector? 23 A: Of that discussion there? No. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: No.
831 Q: And then it says: 2 "20:02 hours, Dale Linton, Mark Wright, 3 Rob Graham, and Stan Korosec. Mark 4 Wright reports Natives off Park area 5 with baseball bats. Constable Zacher, 6 a personal vehicle being damaged. 7 DALE LINTON: Let's take over 'B' team 8 with helmets and K-9. 9 Trevor Richardson arrived in meeting 10 reporting Brian bak -- Byatt reports 11 lots of activity in kiosk area. They 12 took the gas to fill the bus. Mark 13 Wright briefing Inspector Carson on 14 telephone. 15 DALE LINTON: Let's wait and see what 16 Provincial Constable Poole's statement 17 reveals. 18 Rob Graham reports the Natives have the 19 dump truck and bus en route to the 20 kiosk area." 21 Now, do you recall being in a meeting with 22 Dale Linton, Mark Wright, and Stan Korosec? 23 A: I don't recall being in a meeting. I 24 remember that Mark Wright did eventually come back but... 25 Q: And do you recall being in part of a
841 discussion with Mark Wright? 2 A: I was -- I was there, yeah. 3 Q: When you say, "there," in -- in that 4 part of the Command Post where Mark Wright was talking to 5 Linton? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you recall anything about the 8 discussion? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And do you recall the entry 11 attributed to you: 12 "Mark Graham reports the Natives have 13 the dump truck and bus en route to the 14 kiosk area?" 15 A: No, I don't recall that. 16 Q: And if you don't recall that I take 17 it don't recall the source of the information? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And then at some point in time were 20 you asked to speak to the day shift about staying on? Do 21 you recall that? 22 A: I don't recall being asked. I don't 23 recall me being asked to have the day shift stay on. 24 Q: Okay. So that's not something you 25 did?
851 A: No. 2 Q: And did you have an understanding 3 that the day shift was going to be kept back? 4 A: At some point I did, yes. 5 Q: And when you had that understanding, 6 what was your -- why were they being kept back, do you 7 recall today? 8 A: They were being kept back until a 9 decision was made of what, if anything, we were going to 10 do further on in the evening. 11 Q: And what, if anything, we were going 12 to do further on in the evening with respect to what, 13 sir? 14 A: With what was happening down by the 15 Provincial Park at the -- 16 Q: In the sandy parking lot? 17 A: Down -- well, down that way. 18 Q: Now, if I could just -- perhaps this 19 might assist you in your memory. If you could turn to 20 Tab 45. This is a copy of Exhibit -- of Inquiry Document 21 1002372 and it's the first two (2) pages. It's the -- an 22 outline of anticipated evidence of Sergeant George 23 Hebblethwaite. 24 For the purposes, I've -- of other 25 proceedings, Commissioner, but Sergeant Hebblethwaite is
861 reported to have said, if you look at the bottom of the 2 page: 3 "Okay, I'd like to go back to a 4 debriefing which was going to be at the 5 end of our shift which was 6 approximately eight o'clock that 7 evening at the Forest Detachment or a 8 little bit before. 9 Sergeant Stan Korosec was doing a 10 debrief for the day. He was talking 11 about new issue equipment that was 12 coming. 13 While we were in there, the Number 1 14 ERT member, second in charge, Sergeant 15 Rob Graham came in and had a 16 conversation with the debriefing 17 officer. 18 And parts of it was made known to us 19 that there was an incident occurring -- 20 had just occurred down at the park, 21 allegedly involving persons from the 22 Park side of the fence line; Native 23 persons with -- who had, for no 24 apparent reason, damaged a private 25 citizen's vehicle on the road allowance
871 the public access road. 2 This incident apparently was done with 3 malice and we were told to just wait 4 and not -- and not -- no one to leave 5 while they formulated some type of plan 6 or response." 7 And does that assist you at all in your 8 recollection? 9 A: It doesn't. 10 Q: Then did you participate, do you 11 recall participating in a discussion or hearing a 12 discussion about calling in Wade Lacroix? 13 A: No, I don't recall participating in 14 the discussion. 15 Q: Do you recall anything about calling 16 in Wade Lacroix? 17 A: I just recall at some point in time 18 that -- that I was aware that he was going to be coming 19 in. 20 Q: And do you have any knowledge or any 21 information as to why that was happening? 22 A: Well, other than the fact that he was 23 a trained Crowd Management Unit leader, I don't -- I 24 don't have any other specific knowledge. 25 Q: You don't have any -- now, some point
881 do you receive a call, a transmission from -- actually a 2 call from Mark Dew? And if I could ask you to please 3 turn to Tab 26. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 5 would we take a break sometime this morning? Would this 6 be -- I mean, I don't know if there's -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- any place 9 that's any better than any other place. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But this -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, this is fine, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is a 14 good time to take a break. Let's take a break now. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 16 for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 10:33 a.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 10:52 a.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Sergeant Graham, could you please
891 turn to Tab 19 of the book in front of you and you'll 2 find there a copy of Exhibit P-1133. And this is a radio 3 transmission at 20:04 hours from 28-41, Lima 1, Lima 2. 4 And the voice -- you've listened to this transmission? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the voice on the transmission 7 identified as Lima 1 is Mr. Archibald? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall being present in 10 the communication -- with Mr. Archibald when this 11 transmission took place? 12 A: I don't recall actually that I was 13 but I -- I would think I probably was. 14 Q: Okay. And at Tab 20, the 15 transmission at 20:15. The -- Exhibit P-1117, the person 16 identified as Lima 1 is Mr. Archibald again? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And at Tab 21, Exhibit P-1118 at 19 20:17 hours, the transmission between Checkpoint Charlie 20 and the Command Post, the Lima 1 person identified in 21 this transcript is Mr. Archibald? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the -- do you recall being 24 present when this transmission took place? 25 A: I believe I would have been present,
901 yes. 2 Q: And at Tab 22, Exhibit P-1149, the 3 person identified as Lima 1 is Mr. Archibald? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this is at 20:21 on September 6th 6 and there's a discussion about a blue pickup truck and do 7 you recall any discussion about the blue pickup truck? 8 A: I don't recall, no. 9 Q: And then at Tab 23, P-1138 a 10 conversation at -- radio transmission, excuse me, at 11 20:23 hours and between Lima 1 and Checkpoint Delta. And 12 the voice identified as Lima 1 is Mr. Archibald? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And this is an instruction to move 15 two (2) units from Delta to Checkpoint Charlie. Do you 16 recall giving that instruction? 17 A: I don't recall giving the 18 instruction, no. 19 Q: But the instructions identified as 20 Lima 1 would have been instructions, you as Lima 1 would 21 have given to Mr. Archibald to pass on? 22 A: I would have given to him to pass on 23 instructions that I would have received from the Incident 24 Commander. 25 Q: So -- yeah. You would simply pass on
911 instructions you had received from, at that point, Mr. 2 Linton? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: And then at Tab 11 -- excuse me, at 5 Tab 24 there's a copy of Exhibit P-1150, a radio 6 transmission at 20:23 on September 6th. And you 7 identified the names on this transmission as Messrs. 8 Zachers and Myers. 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And the -- Lima 1 is heard on this 11 tape. Do you recall who Lima 1 was? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: And did you know who Bernard George 14 was? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And then at Tab 25 there's a copy of 17 Exhibit P-1139. It's a radio transmission at 20:26 18 hours. And Lima 1 is Mr. Archibald again? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And here the instruction is being 21 given to move Checkpoint 'A' -- excuse me, Checkpoint 'B' 22 to 'A'? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the -- do you recall where 25 Checkpoint 'B' was on the evening of September the 6th?
921 A: I don't recall. 2 Q: And do you recall where Checkpoint 3 'A' was? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: It's my understanding that Checkpoint 6 'B' was initially at the intersection of East Parkway 7 Drive and Ipperwash Road. 8 Would that -- does that help assist you? 9 A: It doesn't assist my memory but I -- 10 again, I don't dispute that it would be there. 11 Q: There was a checkpoint at Ipperwash 12 Road and East Parkway? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I believe at this time, 15 Checkpoint A was at the MNR parking lot. You were aware 16 of that? 17 A: Through the assistance of all that 18 we've gone through today, yes, I remember that. 19 Q: But you can't recall? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: Then at Tab 25, there's a copy of 22 Exhibit P-1137, and actually my -- the number given to My 23 Friends was inquiry document 1001992, P-347. But what 24 I'm going to use is Exhibit P-1137 which was marked when 25 Mark Dew was there and you have that as well, sir.
931 You should have it at Tab 26. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 26. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I said 25, I meant 26. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And this is your voice on the 8 transmission at 20:34 hours, the telephone call? 9 A: Yes. Yes, it is. 10 Q: And because it's a telephone call, we 11 need to add seven (7) minutes, so it was approximately -- 12 it would be approximately 12:00 -- 21:00 -- 20:41, if 13 I've got my... 14 If I've added it up correctly. And do you 15 recall this discussion? 16 A: Vaguely, but I do recall receiving a 17 call from Mark Dew involving weapons. 18 Q: Pardon me? 19 A: I do recall receiving a call or 20 talking to Mark Dew and receiving information about 21 weapons. 22 Q: And the -- the -- Rob -- Mark Dew 23 indicates to you that: 24 "Okay, listen. I just talked to a 25 fellow down here who's been in and
941 eyeballed some of the weaponry that 2 they have. Do you have an update on 3 any of this stuff?" 4 You respond: 5 "GRAHAM: I'm not sure. 6 DEW: Okay, they have -- 7 GRAHAM: Who's this? 8 DEW: It's Mark Dew. 9 GRAHAM: Okay." 10 And then he provides you with some 11 information with respect to weapons? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then he says: 14 "DEW: He thinks they're up to making 15 gas bombs. You heard the story about 16 they're moving the children out the 17 front is supposed to happen tonight, 18 eh? 19 GRAHAM: Okay. And, ah, gas bombs? 20 And they have been moving the children 21 out? 22 DEW: Yeah. The women -- the women 23 from the Army Camp came across and told 24 the ERT team right there at the gate 25 that they are moving their children out
951 tonight because something's supposed to 2 happen in there tonight. 3 GRAHAM: In the army base? 4 DEW: Yeah. 5 GRAHAM: Maybe that's why the 6 unfriendlies are showing up from Kettle 7 Point? 8 DEW: Absolutely positively. Now, 9 this guy that I just spoke to says in 10 his estimation they're going to do -- 11 what they're going to do is they're 12 going to start burning buildings in the 13 army base. 14 GRAHAM: Who are? 15 DEW: The people that are occupying 16 it." 17 Now, the -- the reference to 18 "unfriendlies" showing up, do you have any recollection 19 of what you are referring to at this point in time? 20 A: I don't remember, no. 21 Q: And do you have any recollection of 22 this conversation about the women and children being 23 moved out, other than what you just told us about the -- 24 you had a recollection of the weapons, but that's all. 25 Do you have any other recollection?
961 A: No. No, not really. 2 Q: And with the use of this -- the 3 transcript -- the transcript is an accurate reflection of 4 what you were told? 5 A: Oh yes, sir. 6 Q: And what did you do with that 7 information? 8 A: I passed it on to the incident 9 commander. 10 Q: And if you go to Tab 8, the extracts 11 from Exhibit 426. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: "20:43 hours, Rob Graham reports from 16 Mark Dew that they're evacuating women 17 and children, preparing all night for 18 Kettle Point, Stoney Point. 19 If they have any problems with Kettle 20 Point council they will set buildings 21 on fire. Reports of numerous guns. 22 Four (2) SF's, thirty (30) detached 23 clips, ten (10) Fixed RD clips, two (2) 24 Ruger 14's, three (3) ORD clips, 25 hunting rifles, gas bombs."
971 And that was the information -- you were 2 passing on the information that you received from Mark 3 Dew? 4 A: Yeah. I'm unable to find it in here, 5 I'm sorry. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: I'm kind of lost. 8 Q: Oh I'm sorry. Page 76, Tab 8. 9 A: Tab 8. 10 Q: And it starts on page 75 and then 11 goes to 76. Do you see at the bottom of page 75? Rob 12 Graham. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: At 20:43. 15 A: 20:43, yes, sir. 16 Q: And then up at the top of the page? 17 A: Yes. Sorry about that. 18 Q: That's fine. And that's -- I was 19 going a little too fast. That's the information that you 20 provided to Inspector Linton or Inspector Carson? 21 A: It would have been. At that time I 22 believe it would still be Inspector Linton. 23 Q: And do you recall when Inspector 24 Carson came back in? 25 A: No, sir.
981 Q: And there is a reference that -- at 2 page 74 at 20:29 hours "John Carson arrived." 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And on that same page on 74, there's 5 a note 20:26: 6 "Mark Dew called Dale Linton, reporting 7 Native women and children moving out as 8 they report something is going to 9 happen." 10 Prior to your telephone call with Mark 11 Dew, had you been advised that he had spoken earlier to 12 Inspector 13 Linton? 14 A: Not that I recall. 15 Q: Then at Tab 27, there's a copy of 16 Exhibit P-1141. And this is a trans -- radio 17 transmission at 21:00 hours and you've listened to this 18 and this is your voice as Lima 1? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the -- you give an instruction: 21 "We want Checkpoint Charlie moved a 22 little further back towards Checkpoint 23 Delta. 24 And at that new checkpoint and at 25 Checkpoint Alpha we want the roads
991 closed off. We want the roads closed 2 off completely. No more traffic." 3 And that was an instruction that you 4 passed on to Checkpoint Charlie and the other 5 checkpoints? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you had been instructed by 8 someone to close the roads? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you recall who gave you that 11 instruction? 12 A: No, sir, I don't. 13 Q: And at 21:01 and you don't need to go 14 to this, at page 77 of Exhibit P-426 there's a note: 15 "Dale Linton advised calm. To have 16 roads closed." 17 And it appears that Dale Linton gave that 18 instruction? 19 A: It appears that way. 20 Q: And then at 21 -- at Tab 28 there's a 21 copy of Exhibit P-1142, a radio transmission. And you've 22 identi -- you've listened to this transmission and you're 23 the person who's Lima 1, is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And again, what's happening in this
1001 transmission is moving the checkpoints around? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And then there's on the -- at page 2 4 at Checkpoint Bravo: 5 "We have a cottager here requesting to 6 go to his residence. He's between us 7 and the Army Camp Road. Do we escort 8 him down or just let him go down or is 9 closed for everybody? 10 Lima 2 says: It's closed for 11 everybody." 12 And was that the case at this point in 13 time on the evening of September the 6th, the roads were 14 closed? 15 A: Yes, sir, they were closed. 16 Q: Then there's a transmission at Tab 17 29, Exhibit P-1124. It's between Oscar 1, Whelan, and 18 Lima 2. And it's at 21:25 hours and do you recall 19 hearing this transmission? 20 A: I -- I would have heard this 21 transmission, yes. 22 Q: And then at Tab 30 there's a 23 transmission, it's Exhibit P-1125. It's at 20:26 and 24 Lima 1 -- you've listened to this transmission and you 25 are Lima 1?
1011 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you're asking Whelan to confirm 3 the location of the fire? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall that other than having 6 read this transmission? 7 A: I do recall having radio 8 transmissions with -- with Officer Whelan in his Oscar 9 position, yes. 10 Q: And why were -- why was the Oscar 11 team sent out on the evening of September the 6th? 12 A: I -- I don't personally know why, it 13 wasn't a decision I made. 14 Q: So you -- you didn't make the 15 decision, someone had made the decision earlier to send 16 the team out and you simply caused it to happen? 17 A: I -- I provided the officers for it. 18 Q: And -- so that -- you don't know, you 19 were just asked to put out -- to get officers for an 20 Oscar team? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Okay. And then at Tab 31 Exhibit P- 23 1126 the transmission at 21:28 hours. And again you've 24 listened to this transmission and you -- you are Lima 1? 25 A: Yes.
1021 Q: And at Tab 32 there's another 2 transmission at 21:32 between Lima 2, Oscar 1, and then 3 Lima 1's heard in the background and this is with respect 4 to Whelan -- Officer Whelan's reporting that it appears a 5 fence has been pulled down and removing objects from the 6 trunk. Do you recall hearing this transmission? 7 A: I don't recall hearing it but I 8 believe I would have. 9 Q: And on this one you listened to this 10 transmission and you couldn't identify who Lima 1 was? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: And then at Tab 33 there's a... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: There's a line on that one, it says: 17 "LIMA 1: That's 10-4 Lima 2. He just 18 walked out but I'll advise." 19 So it's identified as Lima 1 but it's 20 someone else, it's not you? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Because it appears that you just 23 walked out? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Is that what you take from that?
1031 A: That's what I take from it. 2 Q: And at Tab 33 there's a transmission 3 Exhibit P-1128, 21:39 hours. 4 And this is a transmission between you 5 being Lima 2, Lima 1, and Checkpoint Delta. And you've 6 listened to this and identified yourself as Lima 1? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then partway down Delta says: 9 "A lot of traffic down here. We've got 10 -- we -- we've got a lot of traffic and 11 we're probably going to start getting 12 some rocks coming in any minute. 13 LIMA 2: 10-4. 14 LIMA 1: You read that. 15 GRAHAM: Lima 1 to Delta." 16 LIMA 2: Lima 1 from Lima 2 17 GRAHAM: Go ahead, Lima 2. 18 LIMA 2: Did you read Delta? They 19 advised there's lots happening there. 20 They're expecting rocks to fly 21 momentarily. 22 GRAHAM: Yeah, 10-4. I'm trying to 23 find out from Delta whether it appears 24 that the women and children have left 25 the Camp or not.
1041 DELTA: Lima 1. Delta. Women and 2 children have left earlier on. They've 3 gone through checkpoint earlier. 4 GRAHAM: That's 10-4. Checkpoint 5 Delta, how many vehicles you got down 6 there? 7 DELTA 2: There's the big dump truck, 8 there's the Batmobile, they've just 9 started a large bonfire. I told the 10 people here if we start getting 11 firebombed we're out of here. 12 GRAHAM: Yeah, 10-4. They're -- 13 they're inside the camp, though? 14 DELTA: That's 10-4. They're just 15 inside on the road. 16 GRAHAM: 10-4." 17 And do you have any recollection today of 18 why you were inquiring about the women and children? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And if I could ask you to turn back 21 again to Tab 8, Exhibit 426 at page 77, Sergeant Graham. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Do you see that at page 77?
1051 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there's an entry, 21:04. 3 "Dale Linton with Rob Graham, inventory 4 of field personnel members. Blue 5 shirts en route." 6 And then there's some names, eight (8) 7 names -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- listed? 10 A: I'm sorry. 11 Q: Do you recall having a discussion 12 with Dale Linton about other officers? 13 A: Yes, I don't recall what it was but I 14 do recall after discussion that I contacted the Chatham 15 communications centre to have additional officers sent up 16 to the area. 17 Q: And officers, the reference to blue 18 shirts, means simply regular officers? 19 A: Uniformed personnel. 20 Q: Uniformed officers. Then at 21:20:43 21 hours at Exhibit P-26 at page 78, there's a reference: 22 "Rob Graham, natives are all over the 23 place and our observation points are 24 pushed back. Also the dump truck fire 25 at checkpoint D.
1061 DALE LINTON: Let's keep to the plan 2 and activate Kimble Hall." 3 And do you recall reporting this 4 information to Dale Linton? 5 A: Today I don't recall reporting it. 6 Q: And is it fair to say that the 7 information you're reporting, part of it anyway, is the 8 information you received from Checkpoint Delta as noted 9 in Exhibit P-1128, at Tab 33 about the fire in the camp? 10 A: That part of it would be from 11 Checkpoint Delta, that would be fair. 12 Q: And there was a -- and had you 13 received a communication from Mr. Whelan that there -- 14 they needed to fall back. Do you recall receiving that? 15 A: I had -- I have -- I read that in 16 here, yes. 17 Q: And actually at the Tab 34, there's 18 the transmission at 21:20:41 hours, Exhibit P-1129. And 19 you're identified as Lima 1 and you've listed to that and 20 you were Lima 1? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And that's where Mr. Whelan says that 23 they're moving back a little bit? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And he's using the phrase "hinky",
1071 "It's getting hinky". 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you recall what you understood 4 back then hinky to mean? 5 A: Not good. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: Not good. 8 Q: It means it's not good? And then at 9 the next tab, P-1130 it's Tab 34, Exhibit P-1130. 10 THE REGISTRAR: 35. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Excuse me, Tab 35. Excuse me, thank 14 you. Is a transmission, P-1130 between Lima 1 and this 15 time it's identified as Stan Korosec and Whelan and at 16 21:42 do you recall listening to this transmission? 17 A: Oh, listening to it, yes. 18 Q: Yeah. But -- and you've listened to 19 it now and was it Sergeant Korosec, do you recall or 20 yourself? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: It was kind of confusing. I thought 25 it was me but I -- I...
1081 Q: Perhaps we'll just listen to that for 2 a moment. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 [Oscar 1 - Whelan, Neil] 7 [Lima One û Korosec, Stan] 8 9 Oscar 1: Lima 1. Oscar 1. 10 Lima 2: Go ahead Lima 1. 11 Oscar 1: Can we confirm that they got the people 12 I/A? I got people close by. I'd like to 13 know. 14 Lima 1: Got the day shift coming down right now, 15 ah in crowd management formation. TheyÆre 16 driving down right now. 17 Oscar 1: Lima 1. Oscar 1. 18 Lima 1: Oscar 1, go ahead. 19 Oscar 1: Can you confirm that Delta people I/A are 20 aware? We got people all around. Just 21 want to confirm that I/A. 22 Lima 1: Oscar 1 from Lima 1, if you got to get out 23 of there, get out of there. 10-4. 24 Oscar 1: 10-4. 25 Lima 1: And advise when you have.
1091 2 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And does that assist you? 6 A: It does. 7 Q: And is it you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And I believe it's Sergeant Korosec - 10 - Stan Korosec thought it was him. 11 A: It is. 12 Q: And the -- were you aware of that 13 transmission? 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: Excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Then if you could turn back please to 20 Tab 8, Exhibit P-426, page 79, 22:15 hours. And there's 21 a report: 22 "ROB GRAHAM: We have ten (10) 23 uniforms at Detachment." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you're reporting that ten (10)
1101 uniformed officers were present? 2 A: That's what I'm reporting, yes. 3 Q: And do you recall listening to the 4 radio transmission of the Crowd Control Unit moving down 5 East Parkway Drive? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And can you tell us what you recall 8 of those events, if anything? 9 A: Just that it took a very long time 10 for everything to transpire and then when it did 11 transpire, it was -- it was, you know, it -- it wasn't 12 very -- it wasn't very good. It wasn't what -- it 13 certainly wasn't what I expected anyway. 14 Q: And you could listen to the 15 transmission over the communications radio? 16 A: Yeah. We heard it over the 17 communications radio. The quality was -- was -- was 18 sketchy from time to time and it was difficult to hear a 19 lot -- or some of the stuff that was going on. 20 Q: And at Tab 36 is a copy of Exhibit P- 21 438 which is the transcript of the period 10:27 to 22 approximately 11:10 p.m. And the -- what was your -- 23 when you say it certainly wasn't something that you'd 24 wanted to have happen the -- what was your reaction to 25 what was -- you were hearing over the radio?
1111 A: I thought I said it wasn't what I 2 expected to have happen. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: But what was my reaction? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: I was extremely -- I was extremely 7 worried for the officers that were down there and for 8 everybody involved. 9 Q: And when you say it wasn't what you 10 expected to happen; what did you expect to happen? 11 A: I was hopeful that our officers would 12 go down and that -- that the occupiers would simply -- 13 would go back into the Park and this would be a -- just 14 have the occupiers back in the Park; that's what I hoped, 15 that's what I was -- I was hopeful of. 16 Q: And what was your understanding, if 17 you had one, as to what the Crowd Management Unit was 18 supposed to do when they went down the road? 19 A: My understanding of the operation -- 20 that operation that night was that we were wanting the -- 21 our goal was to have the occupiers go back into the Park 22 and -- and stay in the Park. 23 Q: And the -- after or during the course 24 of the transmission did you hear Wade Lacroix give 25 commands and hear -- could you hear the -- the gunshots?
1121 A: I don't recall whether I actually 2 heard the gunshots, I heard a reference to gunshots or 3 taking fire. I remember hearing that. 4 Q: And then after this there was a -- 5 and at Tab 37 and I'm not going to take you through this 6 but there's a copy of Exhibit P-1119 which is a copy of 7 the transmission. It's Inquiry Document 200604 at -- 8 just after eleven o'clock and dealing with the -- a -- 9 getting ambulances and other matters. 10 Do you recall a discussion about trying to 11 -- about ambulances and about ambulances being -- being 12 required? 13 A: I remember at one (1) point, yes, 14 there was a discussion or call for ambulances to -- to 15 get down -- to get to the area. I don't recall how it 16 came about but there was a time when we needed 17 ambulances. 18 Q: And there was some question as to 19 where the -- you received an indication of a -- of an 20 address and you were trying to find the -- the 911 21 address? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And can you just tell us what the 911 24 address is? 25 A: That's the -- the green 911 that's in
1131 front of -- of your home, especially in the country. 2 Q: And the number is there to identify 3 the residence in the event that there's a 911 call and 4 someone needs to respond whether it's the police, the 5 fire, or ambulance? 6 A: Yes, a 911 call, yes. 7 Q: And at Tab 38 there's a transcript of 8 a call at 23:13 hours which if you add seven (7) minutes 9 is probably 23:20? And I'm going to just play that. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 Kobayashi Hello 14 Graham Les. 15 Kobayashi Yeah. 16 Graham Les, Rob Graham from the O.P.P. 17 Kobayashi Yeap. 18 Graham Les ah listen we got an altercation down 19 there, ah what's the ah 911 number of 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 21 Kobayashi Oh Jesus good question, I don't have it 22 right in front of me here. 23 Graham Shit, okay. 24 Kobayashi Ah call, call the main gate at Pinery. 25 Graham What's that?
1141 Kobayashi Call the main gate at Pinery. 2 Graham What numbers that? 3 Kobayashi 2-4-3- 4 Graham Yeap. 5 Kobayashi 8-5-3-0. 6 Graham 8-5-3-0. 7 Kobayashi Yeap. What kind of an altercation do you 8 have? 9 Graham Ah we've had gun fire and everything else. 10 Kobayashi Is that right. 11 (BACKGROUND RADIO TRANSMISSIONS) 12 Graham Blowing up tonight, okay there's gonna be 13 somebody at this main gate? 14 Kobayashi Ah yes there's somebody there all night. 15 Graham Oh, all right, good enough, thank you. 16 Kobayashi Okay. 17 Graham All right bye. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And do you recognize the voice on 23 that transmission? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: And there -- the voices are your
1151 voice and Mr. Kobayashi? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And I would ask that we mark this 4 transcript as the next exhibit. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is part 6 of P-347, but you want to mark it separately? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But -- but -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- P-347, sir, is a 10 hundred (100) pages long. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 12 that. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1373, Your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1373. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So I would prefer to 17 simply mark it as a... 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1373: Document Number 1001993. 20 Transcript of Logger tape. 21 Command Centre, three (3) 22 telephone lines, September 23 06, 1995, 23:13 hrs, Rob 24 Graham and Les Kobayashi 25 (also P-347 and P- 883).
1161 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And you then called the Pinery Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And at Tab 39, there's a transcript 6 of a call at 23:14 hours plus seven (7) would be 23:41 7 hours (sic) and we don't have the audio of this but you 8 called the Pinery Park and were given the number 9780, is 9 that correct? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And I would ask that this two (2) 12 page transcript, it's part of Inquiry document 1001992 13 and Exhibit P-347, be marked as the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1374, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1374: Document Number 1001992. 17 Transcript of Radio 18 transmissions. Rob Graham 19 and Pinery Park, 23:14 hrs, 20 September 06, 1995, (also P- 21 347). 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Then the one that I just marked as P- 25 13 --
1171 THE REGISTRAR: 73. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 73 is also P -- 3 THE REGISTRAR: 883 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 883. I missed that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But we'll still mark 7 it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's also 9 what? 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's also been marked 11 as P-883. I didn't realise that. I guess when Ms. -- I 12 should have, when Mr. Kobayashi was here. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. So 14 it's part of 347, 883? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's still part of 16 347. We have it -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, 1373. 18 Three (3) numbers. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Then can you tell us after this what 22 you did? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1181 A: I -- I -- I remember or I have noted 2 as well that I made phone calls to -- to First Nations 3 officers as a result of information request from 4 Detective Sergeant Wright. Advised them of -- of some 5 danger or threats that had been made towards them. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: I called them. Throughout the night, 8 I received information, at one time from Detective 9 Sergeant Richardson, I believed, from the hospital of the 10 fact that -- that one of the occupiers had in fact died 11 and -- 12 Q: And when did you learn that the 13 identity of the occupier who had died? 14 A: That would have -- that would have 15 been from -- from Detective Sergeant Richardson. 16 Q: And did you learn that during the 17 night that it was Mr. Dudley George -- 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: -- who had died? And the -- the 20 calls you made to the individual officers as a result of 21 the instruction from Mark Wright was as a result of what? 22 A: Information he had received. I don't 23 -- I made those -- 24 Q: With respect that there were threats 25 against the officers?
1191 A: Oh, yes. I made those calls at the 2 request of the Detective Sergeant. 3 Q: And then at Tab 40 of the book in 4 front of you, there's a copy of Exhibit P-1202. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And that's a communication -- copy of 9 a communication between yourself, Chris Martin and then 10 Stan Koro -- well yourself and Chris Martin; is that 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you've listened to this? 14 A: Yes, I have. 15 Q: And the -- Rob -- Constable Martin is 16 -- indicates that he had received a threat and was asking 17 for some assistance? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you recall what if anything 20 you did as a result of this? 21 A: I don't recall doing anything about 22 it. 23 Q: And then I'd just like to take you 24 back for a moment to Tab 8, Exhibit P-426, Inquiry 25 Document 102419 at page 81.
1201 "At 23:34 hours Rob Graham advises to 2 Dale Linton he received call that 3 Native officers Phil George, Vince 4 George, Carmen Bressette, Luke George 5 are in danger." 6 Q: And do you recall -- I know your notes 7 indicate that you made the calls but do you recall 8 telling Dale Linton about this? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: And then at page 83 at 00:32 hours: 11 "ROB GRAHAM: Mrs. Jaga, J-A-G-A, 12 [it's spelled in here] called about 13 twelve (12) Natives at the base of her 14 driveway. 15 JOHN CARSON: Give it to Staff 16 Sergeant Lacroix to check out." 17 Do you recall receiving a telephone call 18 from Mrs. Graham? 19 A: Mrs. Jaga? 20 Q: I mean Mrs. Jaga. 21 A: No, I don't recall that. 22 Q: And at page 87 of the scribe notes at 23 2:45, there's a note: 24 "Two (2) ERT members at Fred Thomas 25 resident. Rob Graham and Constable
1211 MacNally. Sergeant Wessels to drive 2 by. Alarm in Forest, then did drive by 3 vehicle on 402." 4 The entry: 5 "Two (2) ERT members at Fred Thomas 6 resident. Rob Graham and Constable 7 MacNally" 8 Do you recall going to Fred Thomas' 9 resident? 10 A: I don't -- I don't recall that and 11 Constable MacNally's not an ERT member. 12 Q: Okay. So that you don't recall doing 13 that nor being with Mr. -- 14 A: I don't recall that, no. 15 Q: And at page 92. Did you know who 16 Fred Thomas was? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: At 4:53 hours: 19 "Rob Graham advised female prisoner 20 Marcia Simon was taken to golf course 21 to be released. 22 BD: Melva George was not arrested and 23 brought here. Native's concern is to 24 the location of an elderly female. 25 Rob Graham advised the elderly female
1221 was dropped off at her residence by 2 Constable Gransden." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Melva George? Do you recall this 5 discussion with respect to Marcia Simon -- Marcia Simon 6 and Melva -- Melva George? 7 A: I recall being assigned to find out 8 what -- what had happened to these people. And -- 9 Q: And you were asked to do that by 10 Inspector Carson? 11 A: I don't recall whether it was 12 Inspector Carson or Inspector Linton. 13 Q: And so you were asked to find out 14 what happened to them and then you reported what you 15 found out? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you recall how you got the 18 information? 19 A: It would have been from Constable 20 Gransden. 21 Q: Okay. And anything else? 22 A: Not that I recall. 23 Q: And then if you could please -- I've 24 put -- you should find in the front of the black binder a 25 copy of Exhibit P-1355? It's a call September 7th, 1995,
1231 at 1:28 hours. Do you see that there, sir? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And this is -- if you add seven (7) 4 minutes because I believe it is a telephone call it would 5 be at 1:35. 6 And it's a call between -- you answer the 7 call and it's Kent Skinner. And you indicate: 8 "Yeah. I'm just relaying a message for 9 you from -- from Lacroix. 10 KENT SKINNER: Yes. 11 ROB GRAHAM: He says he's got -- that 12 Norm Peel's going to be at your 13 barracks tomorrow at eight o'clock -- 14 8:30. 15 KENT SKINNER: Thank you. 16 ROB GRAHAM: All right." 17 And do you know how this call came about, 18 how -- were you asked by Wade Lacroix to pass this 19 message on? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And do you recall any discussion that 22 you had with Wade Lacroix that evening? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: Did you have any -- do you recall 25 having any discussion with any of the officers involved
1241 in the altercation in the sandy parking lot as to what 2 happened that night? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: And then could you read your -- at 5 Tab 7 Exhibit P-1371 the -- could you read -- read your 6 notes starting at the bottom of page 90, I think it's 7 23:45? You've read part of this before -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- but could you just read -- and on 10 -- onto the next page? 11 A: "Make phone calls for Detective 12 Sergeant Wright reference threats to 13 native officers, reference incident at 14 Park involving CMU. Resume duties in 15 Command Post. 07:30 relieved of 16 Command Post duties by Sergeant R. 17 Derus. Assist Korosec with calls, 18 admin details. Debriefing of team held 19 at detachment. Calls made to David 20 Hoath at 13:00 hours, off-duty." 21 Q: And so that you remained on -- you 22 were relieved in the Command Trailer on the 23 communications as Lima 1 at 7:30? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And then you assisted with
1251 administrative matters? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And then you assisted with 4 administrative matters? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And until you went off duty at 13:00 7 hours? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And who's David Hoath? 10 A: David Hoath was the OPP Force 11 psychologist. 12 Q: And why were -- why did you call 13 David Hoath? 14 A: Because we had officers involved in a 15 critical incident stress matter. 16 Q: And was it the policy, the procedure 17 when officers were involved in a critical incident to 18 call the Force psychologist? 19 A: When you're involved in a -- 20 depending on what the level of critical incident stress 21 is that you're involved in, you either debrief -- the 22 level of expertise at debriefing can vary from just 23 discussing it with your shift to an incident such as this 24 which is in my estimation of the highest magnitude which 25 would involve calling a Force psychologist in.
1261 Q: And the Force psychologist came down? 2 A: Yes, he did. 3 Q: And spoke to the officers involved? 4 A: Yes, he did. 5 Q: And did he -- did you participate as 6 well? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: And the -- can you tell us what 9 effect, if any, the -- the events of the evening of 10 September 6th had on you, Sergeant Graham? 11 A: Well, the significant -- there was a 12 significant impact to me I was -- I was -- I don't even 13 think quite concerned would -- would aptly describe my 14 feelings, especially when everything transpired as it did 15 later on in the evening of the 6th. 16 I was certainly concerned for my fellow 17 officers and -- and I was concerned for everybody 18 involved because this had certainly escalated past a 19 point that I had certainly hoped for. I can't speak for 20 other officers but... 21 Q: You can only speak for yourself. 22 A: Exactly. I certainly didn't expect 23 or hope or -- that -- that it would get to a point that 24 it did. 25 Q: And when you say you were concerned
1271 about the other people involved who were you referring 2 to? 3 A: I'm referring to my fellow officers, 4 all the officers that went down. I'm referring to 5 everybody involved. I'm referring to the occupiers, to 6 everybody. 7 Q: And is there anything else you wanted 8 to add about that? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: And I note on Exhibit P-1371 that is 11 on the last page, page 4, page 91, you were off duty on 12 September 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th, September 11th, 13 September 12th and 13th? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And did you have any involvement in - 16 - at Ipperwash Provincial Park after that, in September? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: Now, the -- we've heard some evidence 19 that there were some mugs and t-shirts produced. Did you 20 purchase a mug? 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: Did you purchase a t-shirt? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And why did you purchase the t-shirt? 25 A: I purchased it as a -- I don't know
1281 what to call it. A memento or a reminder of the -- of 2 the operation that we took place in, or took part in. 3 Q: And at the time you purchased the t- 4 shirt, did you have any knowledge as to the significance, 5 if any, of the feather on the t-shirt? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And when did you learn that there 8 might -- there was significance with respect to the 9 feather? 10 A: Shortly after there was -- it was -- 11 it became knowledge that there was -- there was a problem 12 with the symbol that was on the t-shirt. 13 Q: And did you ever wear the t-shirt? 14 A: If I did, it would have been very, 15 very early when I had it, because I bought it as a -- not 16 as something to wear, but something to keep. 17 Q: And what did you do with the t-shirt? 18 A: It sat in a drawer for a number of 19 years. 20 Q: And then what did you do with it? 21 A: Eventually, I've disposed of it. 22 Q: And when you say you've disposed of 23 it, you threw it away? Put it out in the garbage? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And when did you do that?
1291 A: Just after this new year. 2 Q: This year? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: But -- and prior to that, it -- you 5 hadn't worn it, it had been in a drawer? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And did you see a beer can with an 8 arrow? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you see or hear of a cruiser with 11 a bull's eye and a arrow stuck in the bull's eye? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And now, when you were -- you weren't 14 in, after September the 7th, you were not at Pinery Park, 15 I take it? You were off all those days and you didn't -- 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: So did you see any cartoons? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: And did you work with Constables 20 Whitehead or Dyke? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you know who they were? 23 A: No, sir, I don't. 24 Q: And did you participate in any 25 investigation regarding the mugs or T-shirts?
1301 A: No. 2 Q: And -- or Whitehead and Dyke? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: And before I finish, is there 5 anything else you wish to add? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: Commissioner, those are my questions. 8 It may be that some of My Friends may have some 9 questions, so perhaps we could canvass them. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, let's 11 do that. Anybody who has any questions for this officer, 12 please indicate. 13 Ms. Tuck-Jackson, how long might you be? 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Five (5) 15 minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Alexander...? 18 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Ten (10) to fifteen 19 (15) minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 21 Esmonde...? 22 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Twenty (20) to 23 thirty (30) minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 25 to thirty (30).
1311 Mr. Scullion...? 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Maybe twenty (20) 3 minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 5 minutes. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Scullion may be 7 twenty (20) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 9 Roy...? 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: Ten (10) to twenty (20) 11 minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Roy, ten (10) to 13 twenty (20) minutes. 14 That adds up to an hour to an hour and a 15 half, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you 17 want -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Plus there'll be some 19 perhaps by Mr. Roland -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You would 21 have some possibly? 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: So far only two (2) 23 questions but I have more. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 25 just thinking can we try to do it and then quit for the
1321 day or take a break and come back? Because it looks like 2 we're going to be -- we're going to finish early. 3 I understand there isn't a witness 4 available. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We don't -- we did not 6 call another witness for this afternoon given that it was 7 Friday afternoon. And -- but I'm in your hands, we could 8 do it now and perhaps we could ask the witness would he 9 like to have a break or continue? 10 THE WITNESS: Whatever -- whatever you 11 want is fine with me. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm looking 13 around to see if there's any strong feeling, because at a 14 quarter to 12:00 it's possible that we could continue and 15 finish by one o'clock -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: By about one o'clock. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and get 18 away. I think that would probably be the preference. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And before we start 20 the cross-examination I wish to thank Sergeant Graham for 21 coming and giving his evidence today. It's -- I would 22 like to thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 We'll begin then with Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 25
1331 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 4 Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: Good morning, Sergeant Graham. 10 A: Good morning. 11 Q: I have one (1) area in relation to 12 which I -- I want to question you. You were asked by My 13 Friend, Mr. Millar, about your hope and expectations as 14 to what would happen on the evening of the 6th when the 15 Crowd Management Unit moved down East Parkway Drive. 16 And you told him that you were hopeful 17 that what would happen is that the occupiers would move 18 back into the Park. Do I have that correct? 19 A: I think you do, yes. 20 Q: Okay. And when you say that you were 21 hopeful that that was going to occur, I gather what 22 you're telling us, sir, is that you had a reasonable 23 expectation that that would occur. 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: Okay. I want to take you back then
1341 to what happened earlier that day. You told us that you 2 were in attendance in the area of the sandy parking lot 3 and that you were there to provide cover and to secure 4 the area to allow your fellow officers from 2 District to 5 remove the picnic tables. You recall that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can you assist us, sir, as to the 8 approximate number of officers who would have been in 9 attendance for the purpose of removing the picnic tables; 10 so I mean, the officers who actually physically removed 11 them in addition to the members of One District who were 12 there to secure the area? 13 A: It would be a guess, but if both full 14 teams went down they would have been -- and I don't know 15 that both full teams did go down, but... 16 Q: I believe -- 17 A: Well -- yeah. 18 Q: A range, sir, would be in -- in no 19 more than fifteen (15) officers? 20 A: I -- I wouldn't think so. 21 Q: All right. So somewhere -- would it 22 be fair to say somewhere between ten (10) and fifteen 23 (15) officers? 24 A: That -- that would be fair and would 25 be consistent with my recollection, yes.
1351 Q: Okay. All right. And you told us 2 that upon arrival, you observed two (2) individuals who 3 were in the sandy parking lot? 4 A: Yes. They were over by the picnic 5 tables. 6 Q: All right. And you understood that 7 they were occupiers from the Park area? 8 A: That's why my understanding of it 9 was. 10 Q: All right. And I gather then what 11 you observed is that when the group of officers arrived, 12 the effect of that was that the two (2) occupiers moved 13 back into the Park. 14 A: That's what happened, yes. 15 Q: So is it fair for us to conclude then 16 that it appeared, at least from your vantage point, that 17 the mere presence of officers was sufficient to have an 18 affect to move the occupiers back into the Park? 19 A: It did then, yes. 20 Q: And you'd agree with me that there 21 was no physical confrontation between the officers and 22 those occupiers? 23 A: No, there was not. 24 Q: So in other words the mere presence 25 was sufficient to meet the goal of moving them back into
1361 the Park? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So it appeared to you at least? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Would it be fair, sir, that 6 your experience and what you observed in that parking lot 7 that morning, in part informed or affected your 8 expectation as to what would happen later that night when 9 the CMU moved down East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yes, that would be fair. 11 Q: Thank you, sir, those are my 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 14 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 15 Mr. Alexander...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 18 Q: Good morning, Sergeant Graham. 19 A: Good morning, sir. 20 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 21 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 22 and several members of the George family including Sam 23 George. 24 And I just have a few clarifications and 25 questions to as you and I'm going to try to do it in
1371 chron --chronological order -- 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: -- as we go through. So I'm going to 4 start with September the 4th and just looking at your 5 notes it appears that you would have arrived at the Park 6 or you were called out the Park at about 8:30 p.m. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I'm looking at Exhibit P-1371 Inquiry 9 Document Number 2003547 located at Tab 7 of your binder 10 for My Friends. 11 So just to be clear it would have been 12 getting dark or dark at that point? 13 A: Yes, it was. 14 Q: And I notice in your notes that you - 15 - and you talked about flares getting thrown at officers, 16 correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: But they weren't thrown at you, they 19 were thrown at officers in front of you? I believe 20 that's what you -- 21 A: To my recollection yes. They -- they 22 were off to the front of me. 23 Q: Do you know about how far away you 24 were from where those -- where the flares were thrown at? 25 If it helps you could use two (2)
1381 locations in the room, from yourself to a... 2 A: They would have landed I would say as 3 far back as maybe the back table, the back row of tables 4 away. 5 Q: So about the fourth row back just on 6 the inside here? 7 A: Where the young lady is sitting right 8 there; that would be about an accurate distance I would 9 say. 10 Q: That would be -- I've never been good 11 with distances in terms of doing this but it's -- it's 12 forty (40) to fifty (50) feet? Does that sound about 13 right? 14 A: Ten (10). I was going to -- I was 15 going to guess ten (10) -- eight (8) to ten (10) or ten 16 (10) -- ten (10) metres maybe. 17 Q: Ten (10) metres, okay. So at that 18 distance in terms of what you saw of the flares you would 19 have just seen the light of the flares at that point? 20 A: I was -- I'm sorry, I didn't hear 21 that. 22 Q: In terms of what you saw in terms of 23 the actual flares you primarily saw the light; that's 24 pretty much all you saw of the flares then? 25 A: The stream of light, yes.
1391 Q: Now, during the -- when you were in 2 the Park in the -- during the evening of September the 3 4th during your chief Mr. -- you said to Mr. Millar two 4 (2) things with respect to what the occupiers said to 5 you. 6 First you said they -- they said words to 7 the effect of, "Get off our land" and then you 8 subsequently said, "Get out of the Park", so I, sort of, 9 want to figure this out a little bit more. 10 Just so you know there's been evidence 11 from several officers and occupiers that words to the 12 effect of, "Get off our land" was used that evening. 13 Does that assist your recollection as to 14 whether or not words to the effect of, "Get off our land" 15 was used by the occupiers that evening? 16 A: I don't know if it assists me or not. 17 To be honest with you I -- I know we were to get out of 18 the Park. I -- when I said, "Get off our land" I -- I 19 was kind of -- I probably was paraphrasing more than -- I 20 -- I am quite confident in -- in relaying to you that we 21 were told to get out of the Park and I... 22 Q: But you don't take issue with the 23 other evidence? 24 A: No, I don't, no. 25 Q: Moving ahead to the evening of
1401 September the 5th I want to talk about the report of the 2 supposed automatic gunfire on the -- by Constable Parks 3 that evening. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: And is it correct that the only 6 indication you had about potential or the possibilities 7 of automatic weapons was this report about the sounds of 8 supposed automatic gunfire? 9 A: That evening? 10 Q: That evening. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Are you aware of any subsequent 13 investigations regarding those sounds of the automatic 14 gunfire that evening? 15 A: I'm not aware of any, no. 16 Q: I now want to move ahead to the 17 morning of September 6th with respect to the picnic table 18 removal. 19 Now, if I understand your evidence and I 20 understand your evidence correctly you said you saw two 21 (2) people that you understood to be occupiers; one (1) 22 wearing an MNR shirt -- MNR coat, sorry, and a blue 23 shirt. 24 Does that sound -- is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
1411 Q: Now, this is what I'm focussing on. 2 You indicated that both of them moved back into the Park, 3 correct? 4 A: Yes, that's my recollection. 5 Q: That's your recollection. So both 6 the person wearing the MNR coat and the person wearing 7 the blue shirt went back into the Park? 8 A: That's my recollection. 9 Q: And you didn't recognize either of 10 those people? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And I'm going to move ahead now to 16 the evening of September 6th with respect to your role as 17 Lima 1. Now, if I understand your testimony correctly, 18 what you said was you're a resource person to the 19 incident commander and you would do generally what part 20 of your job was to do, generally, whatever needed to be 21 done, correct? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And then the other job is to deal 24 with the radio transmissions and generally listen to the 25 radio transmissions, pass information to the incident
1421 commanders and pass information back from the incident 2 commanders, out on the radio. Is that -- 3 A: That's -- 4 Q: -- a fair summary? 5 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 6 Q: And I want to take you briefly to Tab 7 30 which is the radio transmission marked as Exhibit P- 8 1125, with an indicated start time of 21:26 that evening, 9 between Lima 1, Oscar 1, and you indicated that you were 10 the one who made -- who was Lima 1 on this transmission? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I presume, based on your comments 13 on the other trans -- the other transmissions, you don't 14 recall if somebody asked you to seek this information or 15 if you did this on your own initiative? 16 A: Do I recall? 17 Q: Do you recall? 18 A: No, I -- I don't -- I don't recall. 19 Q: Okay. And you don't recall why this 20 information may have been sought that night? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Thank you, Sergeant Graham. Those
1431 are my questions. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 3 Mr. Alexander. 4 Ms. Esmonde...? 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 7 Q: Good afternoon, sir. My name is 8 Jackie Esmonde; I'm one of the lawyers representing the 9 Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 10 Now, if I understood your evidence from 11 yesterday, you were working out of the Grand Bend 12 Detachment in August of 1995; is that right? 13 A: I was working in Grand Bend 14 Detachment for the summer of 1995. 15 Q: And that was under Staff Sergeant 16 Bouwman? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And part of your responsibilities, 19 working out of that Detachment would have included the 20 policing of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you've told us about some -- some 23 evenings when you were specifically assigned to patrol 24 that area, but just in -- generally, as part of that 25 Detachment, Ipperwash Provincial Park was within your
1441 jurisdiction? 2 A: When I was assigned to patrol that 3 particular area, I was doing so with an ERT -- as an ERT 4 function. 5 Q: That's right. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And apart from that, as part of your 8 role as being in the Grand Bend Detachment, you also 9 patrolled Ipperwash Provincial Park on other occasions? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Were you aware of a policy that was 12 developed in August of 1995 whereby the Park wardens 13 would be the eyes and ears of the OPP when a First Nation 14 person contravened the law? 15 A: I don't recall that, no. 16 Q: I have a document that I'd like to 17 show you to see if this assists to refresh your memory. 18 I gave notice of this. It's from P-1051, Tab 23. 19 I have a copy for the witness and for the 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE:
1451 Q: And you'll see here, this is a 2 memorandum to all park wardens and from the second page, 3 it's copied to Staff Sergeant Charlie Bouwman. 4 Were you provided with a copy of this 5 policy? 6 A: I don't recall being provided with 7 one, no. 8 Q: And were you made aware verbally of 9 this policy from Staff Sergeant Bouwman or anyone else? 10 A: I don't -- today, I don't recall 11 whether I was or not. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now you, yourself during the period 16 September 4th through 6th, you were not assigned to staff 17 any of the checkpoints personally? 18 A: No, I wasn't. 19 Q: You were a supervisor? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You would have taken part in 22 briefings, however, in which the ERT members were 23 instructed about what their duties were at the 24 checkpoints? 25 A: I would have taken a part in
1461 briefings, yes. 2 Q: And you would have generally been 3 aware of what their duties were? 4 A: Yes, I would hope to be aware of what 5 their duties were, yes. 6 Q: Yes. I have here a copy of P-1223 7 which is Inquiry Document 2000721. I have a copy for -- 8 for you, a copy for Mr. Commissioner. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 15 Q: And you'll see that on the first page 16 it identifies checkpoint locations and the second page is 17 headed Checkpoint Duties? 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: And it appears as though this was 20 something that was being handed out to the ERT members on 21 the checkpoints, is that correct? 22 A: I -- I don't know if it was. I don't 23 recall whether it was handed out to ERT members or not. 24 Q: Okay. This document isn't familiar 25 to you?
1471 A: No, it's not. 2 Q: Okay. Well, just generally let's 3 look at the -- the duties as they're described here. 4 It says your job is to prevent all 5 vehicles, pedestrians from going by you towards Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park? And does that coincide with what you 7 understood the role and the duties of the checkpoint 8 officers was? 9 A: No, I don't know when this -- when 10 this was -- whether this was before or after, I don't -- 11 I don't know. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: We listened to correspondence where 14 cars have gone by. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just one (1) 16 minute and let Ms. Tuck-Jackson -- perhaps she can help 17 us. 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I -- I'm only 19 rising in an effort I hope to be -- to be helpful. 20 There's a live issue as to whether or not 21 this document was generated pre-shooting or post-shooting 22 and so I just want everyone to -- to be mindful of that 23 and -- so that we don't end up getting information that 24 is ultimately misleading. We're trying to continually to 25 ascertain --
1481 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- when it was 3 written and I unfortunately don't have an answer yet for 4 you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. I think that's helpful. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I certainly 8 don't wasn't to mislead either. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 10 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I'm just trying to 11 find out from this officer if this familiar, if this 12 is... 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But he's 14 said that he wasn't so -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, he said he can't 16 -- he's never -- it wasn't -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he said 18 he wasn't. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- this document 20 wasn't familiar to him. 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Hmm hmm. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He said then when My 23 Friend said, Well, what about the contents he said, Well, 24 it's wrong because if you listen to the transmissions, 25 cars were going past the checkpoints.
1491 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So -- 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yes, I did hear 4 that. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- it's not 6 particularly helpful 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: But I -- well, I 8 have some follow-up questions. 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: To be fair there was -- 10 of course there was the time when the checkpoints -- the 11 direction, and we've heard this from the examination-in- 12 chief, that no cars were to go by at some stage on the 13 6th, you know, at a -- at a point on the 6th when the 14 checkpoints were not to allow anybody through. 15 So you have to look at it at various 16 times, what was happening, who was going through 17 checkpoints and who wasn't. And -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And on the-- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- it depends on the 20 timing. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The problem 22 is this Witness can't help us with respect to the time of 23 this -- 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: He can't help us with 25 this document.
1501 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it seems, 2 Ms. Esmonde, so with your follow-up questions -- 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Ah -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- let's see 5 where you can go. 6 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He can't... 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 10 Q: It was your understanding that the 11 instructions to the officers of the checkpoints changed 12 over the course of September 4th, 5th, and 6th? 13 A: Did the instructions change over the 14 course of the 4th, 5th, and 6th? 15 Q: Yes, there were different 16 instructions to officers on -- at different points during 17 that time period? 18 A: I know the -- I know the locations 19 changed from time to time depending on what was 20 happening. I -- I don't know that the instructions 21 themselves changed so I can't help you with that. 22 Q: Okay. Well, let's -- why don't we 23 start with September 5th when -- the evening when you 24 were on shift? 25 A: Okay.
1511 Q: And you were supervising? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You understood at that point that the 4 -- the checkpoints were to stop all vehicles that were -- 5 that came to the checkpoint? 6 A: No, I -- I didn't say that I 7 understood that. 8 Q: Well, I'm -- that's my question. 9 A: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you said 10 that I said that. I'm sorry. No, that wasn't my 11 understanding. 12 Q: Okay. What was your understanding of 13 what the -- the officers at the checkpoints were to do on 14 the evening of September -- 15 A: They were to be a presence in the 16 area. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And report to -- through to Lima 2 19 anything that they observed, any information that came 20 their way. 21 Q: Okay. When a vehicle approached the 22 checkpoint were -- the officers were to stop that 23 vehicle, speak with that -- the occupants and allow them 24 to proceed? 25 A: I'm not aware of whether they were
1521 actually instructed to -- to stop each vehicle or not. 2 Q: And -- and what about pedestrians? 3 A: I'm not aware of that either. 4 Q: Okay. And can you -- can you assist 5 us on the evening of September 6th, we -- we've heard 6 from the transmissions that we went through this morning, 7 that there was a point when the roads were closed to 8 everyone. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. But before that point can you 11 assist us with what the instructions were to the officers 12 at the checkpoints as to what they were to do? 13 A: To the specific instructions, no, I 14 can't. 15 Q: Okay, I'd like to move on then to the 16 -- what we call the picnic table incident on the evening 17 of September 5th. And I understand you don't recall very 18 much about what you -- you saw when you went to that 19 corner. 20 A: No. 21 Q: But you would have seen, based on 22 your notes, you would have seen the picnic tables in the 23 sandy parking lot? 24 A: I noted that there was -- there was a 25 buildup there. How well I would have seen them from my
1531 vantage point, I don't recall. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I don't recall seeing them. 4 Q: So you can't recall where they were 5 positioned, the picnic tables that is? 6 A: Not at that night. 7 Q: Okay. But you -- I take it you can 8 be sure that the picnic tables were not piled ten (10) 9 feet high? 10 A: Well I -- I wasn't there that night. 11 I -- I know what I saw when I went the next morning. But 12 I do -- 13 Q: Okay. I had understood that you were 14 down at the corner of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 15 Drive on the evening of September 5th responding to the 16 calls for assistance. 17 A: I was at -- at the lo -- I was at a 18 location after the cars had been damaged -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- observed the cars damaged and sent 21 the officers back to their original checkpoint locations. 22 Q: Okay. And how close did you get to 23 the sandy parking lot? 24 A: I don't recall how close I was. I 25 was...
1541 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And based on what you were told by 4 the officers who had had their cruisers damaged -- I 5 understand you don't remember very much about what they 6 told you or who they even were. 7 A: I just remember Japp and Whelan were 8 two (2) of them. 9 Q: Right. Okay, But you understood that 10 the -- the rocks and the projectiles that were thrown, 11 that that started after a cruiser had been used to push a 12 picnic table? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And you told us you don't recall 15 being told about a report of pepper spray being used? 16 A: I don't recall that. 17 Q: But that's -- by Constable Gransden 18 or by anyone else? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And is that -- is that the sort of 21 thing that you would remember? 22 A: Yes I would hope so. I -- there's a 23 lot of things I would have remembered until I got here. 24 Q: What I'm trying -- is it likely that 25 you weren't told at that time about pepper spray being
1551 used? Can you assist us at all? 2 A: I -- I can't. 3 Q: Is that the sort of thing you would 4 record in your notes? 5 A: If an officer used pepper spray? 6 Again I -- I would in the normal course of action, yeah, 7 I would -- I would note that in my notes. 8 Q: Okay. And in the phone call that you 9 had with Constable Jacklin, just a short period 10 afterwards, there's no -- you'd agree with me there's no 11 mention of pepper spray in that telephone call? 12 A: I would agree with that, yes. 13 Q: Okay. Taking all of this together, 14 do you conclude that you weren't told about the pepper 15 spraying at that time? 16 A: I -- I can't -- I -- I don't want to 17 conclude anything but I think that -- I don't recall 18 being told that and anything that happened afterwards 19 doesn't assist me in remembering. 20 Q: Okay. You'd agree with me the use of 21 pepper spray is considered a use of force? 22 A: Oh yes. 23 Q: And officers are required to justify 24 all uses of force in a Use of Force Report? 25 A: That's right.
1561 Q: And if Constable Gransden did use 2 pepper spray and he has testified here that he did -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- you would expect him to report 5 that to you when you arrived on the scene? 6 A: I would expect him to report that to 7 somebody eventually. 8 Q: Report that to you though as a 9 supervisor? 10 A: I -- I would expect him to report 11 that to somebody whether it was to --to me or whether it 12 be later on to the Incident Commander. I would expect 13 that somebody would be -- that would be reported to 14 somebody. 15 Q: If you were -- you were the 16 supervisor who appeared first at the scene? 17 A: Constable Van Damme and I were, yes. 18 Q: Right. And you were with Constable 19 Van Damme standing beside each other when you arrived 20 there and when you spoke with the officers? 21 A: We were together, yes. 22 Q: And you would expect, as the 23 supervisor who was arriving on the scene, that Constable 24 Grandsden would tell you that he used pepper spray? 25 A: I -- I don't know that I would expect
1571 him to do that. Taking into account everything that took 2 place, our main concern was, number 1, getting out of the 3 range or making sure we were out of the range of any 4 further projectiles and re-establishing our checkpoints; 5 that was my concern. 6 Q: So all you can tell us is you would 7 expect him to report it to somebody at some point early - 8 - some early point after having used his pepper spray? 9 A: Yes, I would expect a certain -- 10 certainly before going off duty I would hope that it 11 would have been reported to somebody. 12 Q: And it would be if not you then 13 Inspector Linton that -- 14 A: It could have been Inspector Linton-- 15 Q: -- Incident Commander. 16 A: It could have been -- could have been 17 Officer Jacklin was the -- the ERT representative in the 18 Command Post that night. 19 We had administrative NCO's that were 20 there to -- to look after paperwork and such. But he 21 would have been required to, I would say required to 22 report to somebody and ensure that the proper forms were 23 completed. 24 Q: Okay. Could I ask you to turn to Tab 25 26.
1581 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: This is the transcript of your 4 telephone conversation with Detective Constable Dew and 5 has been marked as P-1137, Inquiry Document 100992. 6 Do you have the transcript? 7 A: Yes, I do, right here. 8 Q: Okay. And this is the telephone 9 conversation in which he reports to you regarding certain 10 weapons. 11 A: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And on the first page, Dew says: 16 "Okay, listen, I just talked to, ah, a 17 fellow down here, who's been in and 18 eyeballed some of the weaponry that 19 they have. Do you have an update on 20 any of the stuff?" 21 And Constable -- Detective Constable Dew 22 doesn't identify his source at that time, correct? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Or at any other point in the 25 telephone call?
1591 A: Correct. 2 Q: And he doesn't tell you how he 3 obtained this information? 4 A: No, he doesn't. 5 Q: And you didn't ask him who his source 6 was? 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: Or how he obtained the information? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And you've told us that you would 11 have passed this information to the Incident Commander? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you thought that it was Inspector 14 Linton? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Though it may have been Inspector 17 Carson, if he was in the Command Post? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: No, because Inspector Linton was the 22 Incident Commander for the night shift. 23 Q: Okay. So you're quite certain that 24 it was Inspector Linton who you passed this information 25 on to?
1601 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did he ask you any questions 3 about who the source of the information was? 4 A: I don't recall, no. 5 Q: You don't recall, or he did not? 6 A: As to the source of the information 7 as to whether it was Mark Dew or whether -- 8 Q: Who Mark Dew learned the information 9 from? 10 A: I don't recall him asking me any 11 questions of that. 12 Q: Okay. When you say you don't recall 13 him asking you any -- any questions, do you mean that you 14 just don't remember or you -- he did not ask you any 15 questions? 16 A: I don't -- I don't remember. 17 Q: You mentioned -- you used the word 18 'unfriendlies' in this transcript. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you've told us you can't remember 21 exactly what you meant by 'unfriendlies'. 22 Did you become aware following this phone 23 call that the source of the information was one of the 24 unfriendlies? 25 A: No, not for quite -- quite some time
1611 until I actually followed along with this Inquiry. 2 Q: Did it appear to you when you passed 3 on the information to Inspector Linton that he simply 4 accepted the report as true? 5 A: Yes. I would say so. 6 Q: Now, you've told us about some 7 reports from Mark Wright about what he observed in the 8 sandy parking lot -- sorry, a report about an incident 9 that occurred in the sandy parking lot. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And at some point he -- inspector -- 12 now- Inspector Wright came back to the Command Post -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and reported in person about what 15 he had been told about an incident? 16 A: Yes. Okay. 17 Q: And it appears from the -- the scribe 18 notes that you were part of a discussion with Detective 19 Sergeant Wright and Inspector Linton. 20 A: And Stan Korosec. 21 Q: And Stan Korosec? 22 A: I believe there's four (4) names 23 there, if that's what you're talking about. 24 Q: Now, I'd like to probe your memory a 25 little bit further about that conversation.
1621 Now, as you remember it is it correct that 2 Detective Sergeant Wright came back and reported that a 3 civilian's -- civilian's vehicle had been trashed by a 4 number of First Nations people with baseball bats? 5 A: I don't recall what the actual 6 discussion was there. My -- my recollection was the 7 radio call and then when Mark Wright came back, the 8 matter being that there was a number of First Nations 9 persons with -- with bats and that a vehicle had been 10 damaged. 11 Q: Okay. But you were part of that 12 discussion? You were present? 13 A: Oh, yes. 14 Q: And it appeared to you that Detective 15 Sergeant Wright was very concerned about this report? 16 A: Yes, that's fair. 17 Q: Did he discuss the gender of the -- 18 the driver of the vehicle? 19 A: I don't recall that. 20 Q: Can you recall today whether your 21 impression at that time was that the driver was male or 22 female? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: But in any event you understood from 25 what you observed of the conversation and what you heard
1631 that Detective Sergeant Wright wanted something to be 2 done about people being in the sandy parking lot? 3 A: He -- had a concern about what was 4 going on. 5 Q: And did he suggest that officers go 6 to the parking lot and arrest the people in the sandy 7 parking lot? 8 A: I can't -- today I can't recall 9 whether he actually made that actual suggestion or not 10 about actually going down and just simply arresting 11 people in the parking lot. I can't recall whether he 12 made that particular -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- suggestion or not. 15 Q: But it would be fair to say that 16 there was a dis -- discussion amongst the officers there 17 about different -- about possible responses? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And different ideas -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- were discussed? 22 A: That's fair. 23 Q: And one (1) of the -- one (1) of the 24 possible responses discussed was to take officers down to 25 the sandy parking lot and arrest anyone who was there,
1641 whether that was -- 2 A: I -- I -- 3 Q: -- Detective Sergeant Wright or -- 4 A: I don't -- I don't recall that 5 specific option. 6 Q: And do you recall Inspector Linton 7 saying that he wanted to wait to see the statement from 8 the Complainant in the vehicle before a decision was 9 made? 10 A: I -- I don't recall that specific 11 statement being made. I do know that they were -- I do 12 recall that they were waiting for a statement. I believe 13 it was Sam Poole that was going to be taking the 14 statement. 15 Q: That's right. And do you recall that 16 Inspector Linton wished to verify the report by seeing 17 the written statement before any decision was made? 18 A: I -- I don't recall that. 19 Q: Now, Inspector Wright has testified 20 here and told us about his frustrations in that he viewed 21 Inspector Linton as waffling over what to do and how to 22 respond. 23 I take it, it was clear to you from 24 Inspector Wright's demeanour and his words that he was 25 frustrated with Inspector Linton?
1651 A: It wasn't clear to me that he was 2 frustrated. It was clear to me that -- that both these 3 individuals were looking to proceed at different paces. 4 I think I would put it that way. 5 Q: That Inspector Linton and Detective 6 Sergeant Wright wanted to proceed at different paces? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And Inspector Linton -- 9 A: Was -- 10 Q: -- from what you saw, appeared to 11 want to wait? 12 A: Was -- was taking a more -- I don't 13 want to say patient, but what -- what he was looking for 14 was -- was going to -- was going to be longer than what 15 Detective Sergeant Wright was looking for. 16 Q: Okay. And can you assist us what was 17 Detective Sergeant Wright looking for? 18 A: Well, I think Detective Sergeant 19 Wright was looking for some more quicker, immediate 20 decisions or -- or faster decisions. 21 Q: Okay. So it was apparent to you that 22 there was a disagreement between these two (2) officers 23 over the -- 24 A: No, I -- I wouldn't say disagreement. 25 No, there was certainly not disagreement between the two
1661 (2) of them, but there were certainly two different tacks 2 being taken from my point of view. 3 Q: Were you familiar with the nickname 4 Popcorn for Detective Sergeant Wright? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you call him that yourself? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did you understand how he came to 9 have that nickname? 10 A: He just kind of had it. I didn't 11 give it to him or I -- like I just knew he had a nickname 12 Popcorn. Q: And you understood he had that 13 nickname because he had an explosive personality? 14 A: I wouldn't say an explosive 15 personality. I think he had a -- he was a high energy 16 person. 17 Q: Were you -- did you hear any 18 conversation between Sergeant Korosec and Detective 19 Sergeant Wright regarding plans to amass an army? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: So then at some point Inspector 22 Carson returned to the Command Post? 23 A: Later in the evening, yes. 24 Q: Yes. And then there was further 25 discussion amongst the officers in the Command Post about
1671 how to respond? 2 A: Could you repeat that? I -- I kind 3 of lost you there. 4 Q: Okay. Once Inspector Carson returned 5 to the Command Post -- 6 A: Okay. All right. 7 Q: -- then there was some further 8 discussion amongst the officers in the Command Post about 9 options and how to respond to what had occurred -- 10 A: Yes, that's fair, yes. 11 Q: -- in the sandy parking lot? Okay 12 And did you observe the same dynamic that 13 you've described to us about officers having different 14 perspectives on what pace at which to move? 15 A: Yeah. I -- I think that in fairness, 16 Detective Sergeant Wright was -- was, you know, again 17 looking for decisions to be made at a -- at a faster -- 18 or say a faster rate than maybe Inspector Linton. Maybe 19 even at that time Inspector Carson was. 20 Q: Okay. Now you said he was looking 21 for decisions to be made at a faster rate. Was there not 22 also a difference with respect to what option should be 23 taken about what should be done? 24 A: Well there were a lot of options out 25 there but ultimately it would have been the decision of -
1681 - of the Incident Command staff that I had no -- I -- I 2 didn't take part in -- in those discussions as to what 3 the ultimate decision would be. 4 Q: Okay. Now we know that Inspector 5 Carson and Sergeant Skinner left the Forest Detachment 6 Command Post and proceeded to the TOC. You were aware of 7 that? 8 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And at that point you 10 understood a decision had been made about what would be 11 done? 12 A: I don't know that a decision had ma - 13 - had been made of what would be done. I think the 14 fairest thing to say was that an option was -- an option 15 was decided upon and whether to implement that option or 16 not was still -- was still not -- had still not been 17 decided by -- by the decision makers. 18 Q: Okay. And at the time that Inspector 19 Carson left, is it fair to say you understood that the 20 plan was that observations would be made about what was 21 happening in the sandy parking lot and a decision would 22 then be made about whether or not to send the CMU down 23 the road; is that fair? 24 A: I don't know that I can say that I 25 remember that as being the decision or the -- the course
1691 of action. I... 2 Q: You were monitoring the radio 3 communications after Inspector Carson left? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And were you made aware about any 6 decisions that were made by Inspector Carson once he left 7 with respect to what to do with the CMU? 8 A: My only recollection is that after he 9 left a period of time later that the CMU actually did 10 form up and did go down the -- what happened in the 11 interim I -- I don't know. 12 Q: Okay. And did you have the 13 understanding that the idea was that the CMU would march 14 down the road in order to serve as a distraction to allow 15 the TRU observation teams to get into position? 16 A: That's -- that's not my 17 understanding. 18 Q: Okay. How did you come to have an 19 understanding then of what the plan was with the CMU? 20 A: My -- my understanding from what I -- 21 what I recall and what my thoughts were is that they were 22 -- they were going down the road to -- to have the 23 occupiers go back in the Park. 24 Q: I understand that that's your 25 impression, but I -- I would like to know how did you --
1701 how did you come to have that understanding? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Just from being in the Command Post 6 throughout the -- the evening, I guess, I mean, just as 7 things evolved. I -- I don't recall right now any one 8 (1) specific person saying to me this is -- this is the 9 operation, this is what's going to happen, but from my 10 recollection and what I felt that night, that's -- that's 11 what the intent was. It wasn't to be a distraction. 12 Q: I'd like to turn your attention to an 13 entry in the scribe notes, if I could; that's at your Tab 14 8. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: It's at page 77. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: I mean it's at page 76. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1711 Q: At the entry marked 20:49 hours. You 2 would have been in the Command Post at that time? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yeah, I would have been probably, 7 yes. 8 Q: Okay. And at 20:49 it reflects a 9 discussion between Kent Skinner and John Carson and 10 you're referred to as -- in the third paragraph there: 11 "Rob Graham reports the witness is able 12 to identify at least one (1) person." 13 A: Yes. I think that corresponds and I 14 would have been reporting that in as a result of a radio 15 transmission that was entered earlier from, I believe it 16 was Constable Poole. 17 Q: Okay. So going down two (2) more 18 paragraphs, it says: 19 "JOHN CARSON: We are using TRU to go 20 in and get an eye. If they are just 21 having a campfire let's leave them. 22 Why go in the dark?" 23 Now, does that assist you at all to recall 24 any discussion that evening that observation teams would 25 go to see what was happening in the sandy parking lot --
1721 A: No, it doesn't. 2 Q: -- and a decision would be made from 3 there about what to do? 4 A: No, it doesn't. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: You were asked about David Hoath -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- okay. And you said he was the -- 11 the force psychologist? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I'm not sure I quite caught what 14 you said when you were discussing his arrive -- his 15 presence at the Command Post. Did -- he took part in a 16 debriefing, is that right? 17 A: No, I didn't say he was at the 18 Command Post. 19 Q: Okay. I see, where did he go? 20 A: I'm -- my recollection of seeing him 21 was at a -- whether he went to the Command Post 22 eventually, I don't know, but we had a debriefing at the 23 place that we were staying at. 24 Q: You said, "we had a debriefing", and 25 that's at the hotel or at the Pinery?
1731 A: No, it wasn't at the Pinery, it was 2 in some cottages. They're on 21 Highway and I don't know 3 what they're called now. 4 Q: Okay. And this was on September 7th? 5 A: This would have been, yes, on 6 September 7th. 7 Q: And who was present at the 8 debriefing? 9 A: I just recall that -- that the Number 10 1 District ERT team was there. 11 Q: Okay. So the entire team met 12 together with the psychologist -- 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: -- and had a debriefing? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Sorry, I -- I can't recall, was the 17 Number 1 District ERT team one of the ERT teams that made 18 up the CMU? 19 A: Partially, yes. 20 Q: Okay. So what took place during this 21 debriefing? Was there a discussion about what had 22 occurred the evening before? 23 A: I don't really recall what actually 24 we discussed. I think it was just a matter of -- as a 25 force psychologist, making sure that officers had been
1741 involved in a -- in a, I will say a high level critical 2 incident stress matter and -- and he conducted a, when I 3 say "debriefing", a -- a session as a psychologist, as a 4 -- as a doctor, I guess. 5 I don't know there was -- there wasn't 6 like a pattern, there wasn't an agenda or anything, he 7 just spoke to us. 8 Q: But was this -- this was a debriefing 9 about what had occurred the evening before? 10 A: No, this was -- no this wasn't an 11 operational debriefing, this was a debriefing of officers 12 who had been involved in a critical incident stress 13 matter. 14 Q: Okay. And did any of those officers 15 discuss what they saw or did while they were in the sandy 16 parking lot at the -- 17 A: I don't recall what the officers 18 discussed. 19 Q: And do you recall whether the 20 psychologist made any notes while he was -- 21 A: I don't recall that. 22 Q: -- conducting this debriefing? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1751 Q: Can you assist us any further with 2 what was discussed during the debriefing? 3 A: I can't. 4 Q: Were any operational matters 5 discussed? 6 A: I don't recall what was discussed. 7 Q: Thank you very much. Thank you, 8 Commissioner, those are my questions. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. 11 Mr. Scullion...? 12 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Good afternoon, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 afternoon. 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 18 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Graham. 19 A: Good afternoon. 20 Q: My name is Kevin Scullion and I'm one 21 of counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena. You may know 22 them better as the Stoney Point Group. 23 I'm just following up Ms. Esmonde's last 24 line of questioning, do I take it that the debriefing 25 that occurred was as a group as opposed to individually?
1761 A: With Dr. Hoath? 2 Q: With the doctor, yes. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Are you aware of any other 5 meetings between Dr. Hoath and any other participants in 6 the evening before? Do you know of other debriefings 7 like the one you've just referred to took place? 8 A: I don't know whether they did or not. 9 Q: Okay. You were asked a number of 10 questions by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson on behalf of the OPP 11 about your expectations of what was going to occur that 12 evening and she took you back to the morning of September 13 the 6th where picnic tables were removed from the parking 14 lot. Do you remember that -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- line of questioning? And it was 17 your discussion with Ms. Tuck-Jackson that at that time 18 two (2) people left the area and went back into the Park. 19 Do you remember that? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Okay. And you said that that formed 22 part of what you termed your reasonable expectation that 23 that was going to occur in the evening when the CMU team 24 moved down the road. Do you remember that? 25 A: I remember responding that way, yes.
1771 Q: All right. Now, part of the CMU 2 group were individuals that were under your command or in 3 your District 1 ERT? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. When they were forming 6 and getting ready to walk down the road were you 7 concerned at all in terms of what they were going to be 8 walking into? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. You had reports that 11 you'd heard over the radio of alleged weaponry? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: A number of individuals moving about 14 in the Park, correct? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: You heard about talk about a kiosk? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And whether or not there 19 was someone with a gun in a kiosk? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. All of that was in your 22 mind at the time that people that you knew were forming 23 in a CMU unit to walk down the road and to do something 24 at the other end, correct? 25 A: That's correct.
1781 Q: All right. So that -- that I take it 2 formed part of your concern about what was going to be 3 happening at the end of that march; is that fair? 4 A: That's fair. 5 Q: All right. Assuming that your 6 expectation came true, that people simply went back into 7 the Park what did you expect was going to happen after 8 that? 9 A: That our team would retreat or fall 10 back. 11 Q: Right. So twelve (12) hours earlier 12 people had moved back into the Park as a result of a 13 group of police officers going into that parking lot? 14 A: Into the sandy parking lot? 15 Q: Into the sandy parking lot. Twelve 16 (12) hours later you've got the group back in the parking 17 lot and you want to move them back into the Park again, 18 correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you have any expectation that 21 once they were back into the Park they'd just come back 22 out into the parking lot again? 23 A: I guess that's always a possibility. 24 Q: Right. They're right next door, 25 correct?
1791 A: Sure. 2 Q: So you put them back into the Park, 3 they can come back into the parking lot, right? 4 A: Oh yes. 5 Q: All right. Did you hear any 6 discussion at the Command Post among any of these 7 commanders that are looking at options of simply telling 8 the people, Go back into the Park we don't want you in 9 the parking lot. 10 Did they ever discuss that? 11 A: I don't recall. 12 Q: All right. They never discussed 13 using a bullhorn to do that, correct? 14 A: I'd say yes, yes correct. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: I don't remember a bullhorn. 17 Q: They never discussed simply driving 18 by and telling everybody, Get back into the Park, Our 19 concern is you're in the parking lot, right? They never 20 talked about that to your knowledge? 21 A: I -- I don't recall that as being 22 mentioned. 23 Q: Okay. You did talk about September 24 the 4th and going down and being part of what turned into 25 a confrontation. Do you remember testifying about that?
1801 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now how long were you at the scene 3 where this confrontation took place? Do you recall? 4 A: No, I can't recall what time we -- we 5 finally left. It was probably not as long as it felt. 6 Q: Right. Well, start with how long it 7 felt. 8 A: Well -- it felt -- it felt like 9 forever. It -- 10 Q: Let's go to how long you think it 11 took. 12 A: I may have been there an hour. Maybe 13 we were there an hour, maybe I'm -- a little less or a 14 little more, but... 15 Q: Okay. How many times did people that 16 were in the Park ask the OPP to leave? 17 A: Oh, I can't remember how many times 18 it was. 19 Q: A number of times, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the OPP did not leave did they? 22 A: Not at first. 23 Q: Right. Eventually they did. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Why didn't you leave when you
1811 were asked to leave that Park? 2 A: Because I hadn't received 3 instructions to do so. 4 Q: Right. You were simply waiting for 5 instructions from either the Incident Commander or 6 somebody relaying that message as to whether or not you 7 should stay or you should go, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Were you part of any of 10 the planning or pre-planning for this Project Maple? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. So when we look at 13 Project Maple and there are certain things they're 14 expecting from the ERT team, you weren't involved in any 15 of the planning that went into how to use the ERT team; 16 is that fair? 17 A: No, that's correct. 18 Q: Right. You were waiting for 19 direction from either the Incident Commander or somebody 20 passing on those directions as to what you should be 21 doing with the ERT team; is that fair? 22 A: I was waiting for direction. At that 23 point Stan Korosec was still the leader of the -- the 24 team. 25 Q: All right. So you would receive
1821 direction directly from Stan Korosec or could it be from 2 Stan Korosec or from the Incident Commander? 3 A: Well, the way it was that night if -- 4 it came through -- which it did come from the Incident 5 Commander, it was through Stan Korosec. 6 Q: Okay. Did Stan Korosec ever tell you 7 that the goal or the objective was to be in the 8 occupier's face at all times? 9 A: No I don't -- I don't remember being 10 told to be in their face at all times. 11 Q: All right. Do you ever remember that 12 term 'in your face' every being discussed in any meetings 13 with the ERT team? 14 A: I -- I can't recall that -- that 15 term. I know there was -- there was -- they wanted us to 16 be present but I don't recall being told to be in their 17 face. 18 Q: Right. Well you referred to the 19 roadblocks, you were told they were to establish a 20 presence in the area, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 23 moment. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: They didn't call them 25 roadblocks. They're not roadblocks, they're checkpoints.
1831 My Friend uses " the roadblocks"; it's quite different. 2 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm not excited 3 about the term 'roadblock'; that's fine. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: In his notes it was 5 called roadblocks. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's been 7 used sometimes -- 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think it's both. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but 10 checkpoint is probably a more accurate description unless 11 it's important to you. 12 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's not important 13 to me. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay then 15 let's -- 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: And if My Friend 17 wants me to use 'checkpoints', I'll use 'checkpoints'. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm sure Sergeant 20 Graham knew what I was speaking about. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 23 Q: The checkpoints. You were told they 24 were to establish a presence in the area, correct? 25 A: That's what I testified that they --
1841 the purpose was. 2 Q: I appreciate that. Were you ever 3 told why it was important to establish a presence in the 4 area? 5 A: Specifically, I don't recall being 6 told why. 7 Q: All right. Were you ever told why it 8 was important to establish a presence by putting certain 9 checkpoints at certain locations? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. You were simply following 12 directions that you received? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And did I hear you correctly in your 15 evidence in-chief that when you were manning the 16 communications, that it was an open channel, that any 17 police officer with a radio could hear any of the 18 communications that were going on? 19 A: Any of the officers involved in that 20 incident were. 21 Q: Okay. How about -- we've looked at a 22 number of tapes where you are listed as either hearing 23 information or taking part in conversations. 24 Is there a distinction between those tapes 25 or are all of those channels available to all of the
1851 police officers in the area? 2 A: I'm not sure what you're asking me. 3 Are you asking if like, for example, officers that were 4 working general patrol duties at Forest Detachment, Grand 5 Bend Detachment could hear that, could hear those 6 communications; is that what your question is? 7 Q: Well let me just indicate that you 8 had indicated all officers could hear communications from 9 other officers and I'm just seeking to clarify -- 10 A: I was talking about officers that 11 were involved in -- in the checkpoints in that -- in that 12 operation. 13 Q: All right. So any report that comes 14 to you from any of the checkpoints can be heard by any of 15 the other officers listening at any of the other 16 checkpoints? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. You talked about the term 19 'road warrior'. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You seem to have a grin. You didn't 22 seem to take it too seriously. 23 A: Not really, no. 24 Q: All right. It was just a name that 25 was used by those who were not road warriors to describe
1861 the uniformed officers? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. I take it, it had no 4 larger meaning? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. Now, the incident at the 7 corner, what some have referred to as picnic table 8 incident, we have a tape from, including a discussion 9 that you've had and one of the terms on the tape, one of 10 the lines used and I can turn it to you -- turn to it if 11 we need to, but the line is: 12 "As long as we stay away from them, 13 we'll be all right." 14 And it's referring to the rocks being 15 thrown. Do you recall that conversation? 16 A: I recall the conversation. I just -- 17 Q: Tab 11, if you want to take a look. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Page 5 of 7. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Five (5) or six (6) lines down, Wayde
1871 Jacklin says: 2 "So long as we stay away from them, 3 then we'll be all right." 4 And your response: 5 "Well, I guess so. Like I can't see 6 sitting there getting pelted all 7 night." 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Right. And that was your feeling at 10 the time. You agreed with Wayde Jacklin; just stay away 11 from them, we'll be fine, just keep an eye on them? 12 Is that fair? 13 A: That's fair. 14 Q: All right. You also referred quickly 15 in your examination-in-chief to night vision, and my 16 impression from your description as night vision 17 equipment was that it was substandard or less than what 18 it could be; is that fair? 19 A: I refer to it in...? 20 Q: It was referred to you -- 21 A: I think the only reference was in 22 this conversation with Wayde Jacklin. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1881 Q: Sorry, I'm assisted by Commission 2 Counsel. You were referred to that, but Wayde Jacklin 3 made the comment and do I take it, then, that you didn't 4 know much about night vision? 5 A: No, I didn't. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: You did say, though, at that time, 11 that your recollection was that we weren't to go into the 12 Park, and that's on September the 5th? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But the night before you were clearly 17 in the Park and a confrontation had occurred. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: When were you told that you were no 20 longer to be in the Park or go into the Park? 21 A: I don't -- I don't recall when I was 22 specifically told, but we went into the Park -- I went 23 into the Park in response to officers needing assistance 24 the night before. 25 Once we left the Park, it was my
1891 understanding that we were not going to go back into the 2 Park. 3 Q: Right. And I appreciate that. I'm 4 simply seeking to clarify whether or not you were 5 specifically told -- 6 A: I don't recall being specifically 7 told, do not go into the Park. 8 Q: All right. Were you specifically 9 told at any point in time about any significant 10 importance attaching to this parking lot next to the 11 Provincial Park? 12 A: I don't recall. Not then, no. 13 Q: All right. Because you did testify 14 that it was important to you to move these tables out of 15 the way once some were stacked at the entrance to that 16 parking lot? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do I take it from your evidence that 19 it was a policing concern for you as opposed to any 20 importance of -- of what was behind those particular 21 tables? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: That would be fair. 25 Q: And the stacking of the tables simply
1901 prevented some kind of access that may be necessary for 2 your police vehicles? 3 A: No, that wasn't -- that wasn't -- I 4 just didn't think they should be there. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: We'd already had rocks thrown at us 7 when we went down once. 8 Q: Didn't go any further than that? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. You did testify, Mr. 11 Millar in-chief, that a decision was made to send an 12 Oscar team down on September the 6th. 13 Do you recall that with Mortimer and 14 Whelan? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you know why that Oscar team was 17 sent wherever they were sent? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: You weren't told, This is why we need 20 them somewhere? 21 A: No, I don't recall being told that. 22 Q: Do you recall sending them though? 23 A: I recall assigning them that duty and 24 then they went in and they were assigned where they were 25 going to go by other officers.
1911 Q: Right. The tab that I have is Tab 12 2 and it's a discussion that you appear to be having with 3 Sergeant Korosec just updating him three-quarters of the 4 way down the page on Tab 12 -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- the first page? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: It says: 9 "I already assigned them -- I assigned 10 Mortimer and Whelan." 11 Who asked you to assign Mortimer and 12 Whelan? 13 A: Nobody asked me to assign Mortimer 14 and Whelan, I decide -- I made the decision to assign 15 them. 16 Q: After -- 17 A: I -- 18 Q: -- receiving instructions -- 19 A: I -- 20 Q: -- to send an Oscar team? 21 A: Yes, I -- I -- nobody told me to 22 assign the two (2) specific officers, -- 23 Q: No. 24 A: -- I decided who the two (2) 25 officers were.
1921 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Do you know why -- sorry, I've asked 4 you do you know why. What were your instructions to 5 Mortimer and Whelan that afternoon? 6 Do you recall what you told them to do? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: You didn't tell them what they were 9 looking for or you don't recall? 10 A: No, I -- I don't recall. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, you were asked some questions 15 about Mark Wright and if you turn to page 2 of that 16 particular Tab 12 it contains some comments and -- and 17 I'll suggest to you that you were pretty diplomatic in 18 testifying today about your impressions of Mark Wright's 19 personality and the diplomacy doesn't seem to be 20 reflected in this transcript. 21 You have that before you? You see the 22 wording? 23 A: Oh, yes, I do. 24 Q: All right. Can you explain why you 25 had that reaction to the term, "Mark Wright" at that
1931 point in time on September the 6th, 1995? 2 A: I believe I was responding to his -- 3 his question in the background. It was a -- it was more 4 of a -- although probably eleven (11) years later 5 inappropriate but more of a -- of a joking manner than 6 anything else. It wasn't a malicious manner -- 7 Q: No, I appreciate -- I appreciate that 8 and I would suggest it's inappropriate too; that's why 9 I'm not repeating it but -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- above that it says "permanent" and 12 we've clarified it to say cone of silence. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And I'm trying to determine what is 15 meant or what you understood a permanent cone of -- 16 permanent cone of silence meant in relation to Mark 17 Wright at 5:13 in the afternoon on September the 6th. 18 What do we make of this conversation? 19 A: Mark Wright or Stan Korosec is 20 telling me what happened in the afternoon. Mark Wright 21 is asking whether I would be cleared to receive that 22 information. Stan Korosec responds that he's in the 23 permanent cone of silence so it's okay. 24 And I'm asking what I -- what I asked 25 there basically because I want to know who -- who was
1941 questioning whether I could hear that the bat mobile was 2 almost had. 3 He responds -- Stan responds as he does 4 and then I respond as I do -- no, it doesn't sound right 5 to say a lighthearted manner but certainly not a serious 6 manner. Almost like, you know, why would he -- why -- 7 why would anyone question whether I could hear whether 8 the bat mobile was -- was caught -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: --it wasn't -- there was nothing to 11 it. 12 It certainly wasn't a matter that I -- did 13 I dislike Mark Wright. Because I don't dislike Mark 14 Wright. 15 Q: No. My impression is and you can 16 correct me if I'm wrong, that this reference to a 17 permanent cone of silence is simply whatever Mark Wright 18 is saying in the background, isn't all that important. 19 Don't worry about it. 20 A: Whatever Mark Wright says in the 21 background? 22 Q: Right. He's in a permanent cone of 23 silence -- 24 A: No, I think Stan Korosec's referring 25 that I'm in the permanent cone of silence. So it's okay.
1951 Q: All right. And -- and I'm trying to 2 clarify the relation -- 3 A: In the cone of silence? From the Get 4 Smart TV series? 5 Q: I know where it's from and I know 6 what it means. The question is what were you referring 7 to in this situation? You're, I presume, quarrelling 8 with me and my impression that anything that Mark Wright 9 was saying was taken -- were not being taken seriously by 10 yourself and Mr. Skinner. That isn't -- 11 A: Mr. Korosec. 12 Q: -- Mr. Korosec. That isn't the 13 impression that should be taken from this? 14 A: No, you're -- the way you were asking 15 the question it sound like you were referring that Stan 16 Korosec was referring to Mark Wright being out of the 17 permanent cone of silence. And the way I read this and 18 have heard it, he's referring that I am under the 19 permanent cone of silence so I can -- I would be cleared 20 for that information such as it was. 21 Q: All right. So that's your 22 understanding of what that exchange was. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now at Tab 26, page 3 there's a 25 reference to these unfriendlies from Kettle Point. Do
1961 you see that? 2 A: At Tab 26, page 3. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: I'm told it's on page 2 of your copy. 7 A: Okay. Yes. 8 Q: And there's reference earlier to a 9 pickup, a blue pickup going through one (1) of the 10 roadblocks with unfriendly's. 11 Do you remember discussing that in your 12 evidence in- chief? 13 A: I remember the -- the blue pickup. 14 Q: All right. Was there any effort made 15 to your knowledge by the OPP to simply prevent what were 16 seen at least by you and perhaps Sergeant Dew, as 17 unfriendlies from Kettle Point going into what by this 18 point in time was a questionable situation at that 19 corner? 20 A: Was there an effort to stop them, did 21 you say? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Not that I -- I -- I don't recall one 24 (1). I don't recall that there was, no. 25 Q: All right. Would you agree with me
1971 that preventing something that could inflame the 2 situation would have been a proper approach by the OPP? 3 It could have helped? 4 A: It could have -- that could have 5 helped, I would agree. 6 Q: There was some questions by Ms. 7 Esmonde just before me, on discussions that were -- or 8 options that were discussed in terms of what to do about 9 what seemed to be occurring at the corner. 10 And I'm wondering whether or not one (1) 11 of the further options that to your knowledge was 12 discussed was simply going back into and taking back the 13 Park? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: Do you recall any discussion of that 16 nature? 17 A: I don't recall that ever being 18 discussed. 19 Q: All right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. Those are all my questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
1981 Mr. Scullion. 2 Yes, Mr. Roy...? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 7 Roy. Good afternoon. 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: Good afternoon, sir. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 11 Q: Good afternoon. 12 A: Good afternoon. 13 Q: My name is -- I have to lower the 14 mike I'm a lot shorter than Mr. Scullion. I have -- I 15 act for Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto and my name 16 is Julian Roy. 17 I just have a few minutes of questions for 18 you. 19 The first matter that I want to clarify in 20 terms of your evidence. Your lawyer rose a few minutes 21 ago to say that there's a world of difference between a 22 checkpoint and a roadblock in terms of how an ERT 23 assistant leader would use that term. 24 Do you agree with him on that? 25 A: Yes, sir, there is a difference.
1991 Q: Okay. So if you could go to Tab 7 of 2 your -- your documents, which is Exhibit 1371. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And if you go to page 2 of that, at 7 the top there's a reference to setting roadblocks along 8 Army Camp Road. 9 A: Yes, there is. 10 Q: Okay. You -- when you reflected that 11 entry in your note, you were intentionally referring to a 12 roadblock as opposed to a checkpoint, right? 13 A: I would say it's more like I mis- 14 chose my words. 15 Q: I see. So when you used the term 16 "roadblock" here, you're really referring to a 17 checkpoint? 18 A: They were checkpoints, yes. 19 Q: Okay. Even though at the time that 20 you made your note, you would have been fully familiar 21 with the -- 22 A: Absolutely. 23 Q: -- big distinction between the two 24 (2). 25 A: That's right.
2001 Q: All right. The term "road warrior" 2 that you were asked about a few moments earlier, you can 3 probably appreciate how people outside the policing 4 community might be a little alarmed about the use of the 5 term "road warrior", right? 6 A: I can see that, yes. 7 Q: Yeah. And -- and your point, in 8 terms of your testimony was that we sort of have to 9 understand the context how police officers use that term 10 before we get too excited about it, right? 11 A: I would think that's fair. 12 Q: Yes. And you're aware that First 13 Nations people or some First Nations people use the term 14 "warrior", right? 15 A: Yes, I am. 16 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me 17 also that you would have to have some kind of 18 understanding how First Nations people use that term or 19 understand that term before you get too excited about 20 that, either, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay, and you didn't have any First 23 Nations training prior to this incident, did you? 24 A: No, I didn't. 25 Q: No. I want to ask you some questions
2011 about the T-shirt, okay. 2 And am I right in saying that you bought 3 that T-shirt simply as a souvenir to reflect your 4 involvement in the Ipperwash policing operation? 5 A: That'd be fair, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And am I right in saying that 7 -- that among police officers, amongst the policing 8 community, it's a common practice to create souvenirs 9 regarding large scale operations? 10 A: It has been in the past, yes. 11 Q: Okay. And it remains a practice -- 12 does it remain a practice to do that? 13 A: I don't know so much any more. 14 Q: Do you ever recall a souvenir being 15 created in connection with a policing operation where a 16 civilian actually is killed in the course of that 17 policing operation by a police use of force, other than 18 this incident? 19 A: No, I don't recall. 20 Q: No. Was there any -- do you recall 21 having any -- did it occur to you, when you were 22 purchasing this souvenir that it might be in kind of bad 23 taste or inappropriate to be buying a souvenir in 24 connection with an incident where there was an actual 25 death?
2021 A: At the time, no. 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall any 3 discussion about whether or not it was perhaps in bad 4 taste or inappropriate to -- 5 A: I don't recall any discussion. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: That I was involved in. 8 Q: And -- and these souvenirs, the mugs 9 and the T-shirts, they were sold out in the open, weren't 10 they? 11 A: Out in the open? 12 Q: Yeah. There wasn't -- you didn't 13 have to go and meet some police officer in a field 14 somewhere in the middle of the night to buy one of these 15 things -- 16 A: No, no. 17 Q: -- these were just sold? 18 A: No, they -- okay, yeah. I understand 19 what your context is, yes. 20 Q: I'm sorry, it's a bad question. But 21 dozens and dozens of officers -- 22 A: They were, yeah. They were, yeah, 23 they weren't open to the public to, like I see what you 24 mean, yes. 25 Q: Yeah. And despite that, you don't
2031 recall any discussion in that regard? 2 A: I don't. 3 Q: No. Do you recall who you purchased 4 the T-shirt from? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Do you recall who was selling the T- 7 shirts? 8 A: No. 9 Q: On reflection today, as you think 10 about buying a souvenir regarding a police operation 11 involving a death, I take it on reflection you do see 12 that it's a little bit in bad taste, don't you? 13 A: I wouldn't do it again. 14 Q: Yeah. The feather that was on the 15 T-shirt that you purchased, what -- what was your 16 understanding as to what that was supposed to represent? 17 A: When I bought it? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: I didn't have any understanding of 20 what it represented. 21 Q: Did you ask yourself why am I buying 22 a T-shirt with a feather on it? 23 A: No, I didn't ask myself that. 24 Q: Okay. I -- I took from your evidence 25 that you did become aware that there was some sort of
2041 investigation that flowed from the creation of these 2 mementos? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You were aware of that investigation, 5 right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you would have been aware in the 8 months after, back in the fall of 1995? 9 A: Yes, 10 Q: And you were never interviewed about 11 that, right? 12 A: I don't recall being interviewed, no. 13 Q: No, and if you were interviewed in 14 the course of some sort of disciplinary investigation you 15 probably would remember that, right? 16 A: I think I would, yes. 17 Q: Yeah. And you weren't actively 18 hiding the fact that you purchased the t-shirt, were you? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. And how many people would have 21 known that you purchased the T-shirt? 22 A: Oh, I have no idea. 23 Q: Okay. At least the person who sold 24 it to, right? 25 A: I guess so, yeah.
2051 Q: All right. Were you ever given any 2 direction from your superiors concerning the T-shirt? 3 A: I don't know. I don't remember 4 getting any specific direction. 5 Q: Well, do you recall -- 6 A: I do recall that -- that shortly 7 afterwards that it was -- it was certainly, I don't want 8 to say a point of contention but it was -- it was a 9 contentious item to say the least. 10 Q: And did anybody explain to you why it 11 was a contentious item? 12 A: I understand later that the symbolism 13 of the -- of the feather laying down was -- was not an 14 appropriate symbol. 15 Q: And you understood that in and around 16 the time that -- that you became aware that the 17 investigation was going on, right? 18 A: That would have been about the time, 19 yes. 20 Q: And despite that fact you retained 21 possession of the T-shirt up 'til 2006, right? 22 A: I did. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2061 Q: Did -- did somebody suggest to you 2 that you should dispose of the T-shirt in 2006? 3 A: My wife. 4 Q: Okay. And that was as a result of 5 hearing about evidence concerning the T-shirt? 6 A: Well, it was that it was -- it was 7 being brought up and as time went on it was more and more 8 evident that I was going to be coming here and 9 unfortunately maybe I -- I should have been, I obviously 10 should have been a little more sensitive to the situation 11 and that I -- I should have done the right thing long ago 12 and just got rid of it, all it was doing was sitting in a 13 drawer anyway and -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- as time has gone by it certainly 16 isn't really an appropriate memento of -- appropriate 17 reminder of that period in time. 18 Q: Okay. And so you -- you sort of 19 heard from reports or from following the Inquiry that the 20 issue of the T-shirt and the mugs had become something 21 contentious at this proceeding and you put -- you also 22 became aware that you were going to be a witness and you 23 thought it would be a good idea to get rid of it before 24 you testified? 25 A: Bringing everything in together I
2071 thought it was time. 2 Q: Did any -- did you consider the fact 3 that -- that you might be obliged to retain it at this 4 point and -- and perhaps produce it as -- as evidence in 5 this Inquiry? 6 A: I never really thought of it. 7 Q: What was your understanding in terms 8 of your obligations to produce potential evidence? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm sorry, Commissioner, 10 but -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 12 where this is going. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- that's not 14 appropriate; there's no obligation at all. This is a 15 Public Inquiry, there's no obligation for him and his 16 private property whether he retains it or not. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: This is material 18 evidence in my respectful submission. The T-shirt is 19 material evidence -- 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- Well -- 21 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- concerning -- 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- whether it's -- it's 23 not material to anything, it's -- it's not material to 24 anything. 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well --
2081 MR. IAN ROLAND: The -- the fact of the 2 existence of the T-shirt -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- is known, it's in 5 evidence. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. We've 7 seen pictures of it. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: There's nothing material 9 about it. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We've seen 11 the emblems, we know what it looks like. I would like 12 you to go on. 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: There is no secret about 14 this. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Quite enough 16 of this. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With great respect, 18 Mr. Commissioner, may I please speak to this issue 19 because it concerns me and my client as well? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There is an 22 obligation -- there was an obligation on behalf of all 23 parties to produce evidence, any relevant evidence to 24 this Inquiry. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we know
2091 that. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And we don't have a 3 T-shirt here and it would be very useful to have the 4 actual T-shirt as opposed to a photograph -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 6 have it. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- or a decal. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 9 Unfortunately we don't have it. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No. We -- 11 unfortunately, we don't have it. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 13 have it. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We're told that 15 one(1) was destroyed as late as this year. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's 17 explained why he destroyed it. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And Mr. Roy was 19 very properly, in my respectful submission, enquired 20 further about them, he should be allowed to continue. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on, 22 Mr. Roy. Move on. You've covered enough of this. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 25 Q: Did you receive training concerning
2101 First Nations issues subsequent? You told us you didn't 2 have any before September 1995. 3 Have you gotten any training since that? 4 A: In April of 1996 I attended a, I guess 5 a seminar would be the appropriate word to use, Inspector 6 Potts I believe was the facilitator of that. 7 Q: And is that the sum total of the 8 training that you've received? 9 A: That is. 10 Q: I want to ask you just a couple 11 questions about the debriefing with the psychologist after 12 the events -- in the morning of -- I guess the morning of 13 September 7th by that time. 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: Was Wade Lacroix present at that 16 debriefing? 17 A: No he wasn't. 18 Q: Was Inspector Carson present at the 19 debriefing? 20 A: No, he wasn't. 21 Q: Was Inspector Linton present at the 22 debriefing? 23 A: No, he wasn't. 24 Q: Was Inspec -- was Acting Sergeant 25 Wright present at the debriefing?
2111 A: No, sir. 2 Q: Now you told us that what ended up 3 happening that night was completely unexpected to you, is 4 that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You told us that. And you weren't 7 actually present in that sandy parking lot to eyeball what 8 had actually happened, correct? 9 A: I wasn't. 10 Q: No. And even though you were 11 monitoring the events by -- by -- through radio 12 communications, those communications were imperfect in the 13 sense that you couldn't hear it properly at times, right? 14 A: There was difficulties, yes. 15 Q: And there were a number of officers. 16 You were the assistant team leader of an ERT team and some 17 of the members of that ERT team were involved in the CMU 18 operation, correct? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And given that these are your 21 subordinate officers involved in something that you didn't 22 understand, you must have had some curiosity about what 23 had actually happened down at the parking lot? 24 A: That I didn't understand? 25 Q: Yeah.
2121 A: What didn't I understand? 2 Q: Well you've told us you didn't expect 3 it to happen, that you didn't see it and you didn't hear 4 all of the radio communications. I -- I expect that you 5 didn't understand what had happened down at the sandy 6 parking lot. 7 Am I wrong? 8 A: I understood what happened. 9 Q: Okay. And what was your 10 understanding? 11 A: My understanding that eventually shots 12 were fired and -- and a bus came out of the -- of the Park 13 and that -- that there was obviously a confrontation 14 between police and -- and occupiers. 15 Q: And where did you get that 16 understanding from? 17 A: From over the -- from the radio 18 communications mostly. 19 Q: Okay. But you didn't hear the shots 20 over the radio communications? 21 A: I didn't hear the shots but there was 22 something mentioned on -- over the air about we're taking 23 -- we're taking fire or something along that. 24 Q: Okay. But given that you weren't 25 there to see it and it wasn't an event that you expected,
2131 you must have been curious as to getting more detail as to 2 what precisely had happened down there? 3 A: No, I -- I didn't see a lot of my 4 officers actually for some time afterwards. 5 Q: All right. And when you did see them 6 given that they were present and you weren't, you must 7 have asked them about what had happened? 8 A: I -- I don't recall asking them what 9 happened. I think we were to a point at that -- at that 10 point knowing that somebody had died that an investigation 11 was going to take place and we had to be very careful what 12 -- what we discuss or don't discuss with other -- with 13 officers that are involved. 14 Q: All right. So it was your un -- 15 certainly to your mind, it was -- it would have been 16 totally inappropriate for officers who were involved in 17 that incident to be discussing it with one another, right? 18 Pending an investigation. 19 A: I -- I didn't -- depending on what 20 instructions were given them. I'm talking about somebody 21 who as myself, who was not involved down there. 22 Q: Well do -- do you recall any 23 instruction that was given by superior officers concerning 24 what police officers' obligations were? 25 A: I -- I don't recall any specific
2141 instructions, no, sir. 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: I think those are my 3 questions, Mr. Commissioner. I'm just -- if I could just 4 take five (5) seconds -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- to look at my notes. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you very much, Mr. 11 Commissioner and thank you, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Roy. 14 Mr. Roland, do you have any questions? 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: I have a few questions. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: Sergeant Graham, I have a few 21 questions for you. First of all, in your examination in- 22 chief by Mr. Millar, he asked you about the information 23 that you had on the -- on the 5th, late in the 5th of 24 September including the automatic gunfire. 25 You testified that you'd heard that Larry
2151 Parks had reported hearing automatic gunfire, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then you were asked about -- by 4 Mr. Millar about do -- did you know that hunters and 5 others have rifles and -- and have guns and weapons and 6 you indicated you do? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you know then that automatic 9 rifles were prohibited weapons? 10 A: I did know that. 11 Q: And what -- and hunters don't have 12 automatic rifles, at least lawfully, do they? 13 A: No, sir. 14 Q: No. Neither does anybody else, 15 because they're prohibited weapons? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right. Let me take you to the 18 evidence concerning something you don't rec -- you said 19 you didn't recall, which is speaking directly to Les 20 Kobayashi concerning information about gunfire, about 21 hearing gunfire. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Right. And we hear -- we understand 24 from Mr. Kobayashi's evidence that he attended briefings 25 at the command post on September 5 and September 6.
2161 He testified to that. And you were at a 2 briefing on the morning of September 6th before -- before 3 the operation to remove the picnic tables from the sandy 4 parking lot. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was, do you recall, was Mr. Kobayashi 7 at that briefing? 8 A: I don't recall whether he was there. 9 Q: Right. And he indicated that he heard 10 from you about -- about -- at a briefing, he said, or he 11 was briefed, yeah. 12 He said, actually it was brought out at a 13 briefing, I believe, by Sergeant Graham, about hearing 14 gunshots. 15 Do you recall at that briefing that you 16 mentioned anything about gunshots? 17 The one (1) on -- 18 A: I -- yeah. I don't -- today, I don't 19 recall mentioning it. 20 Q: Is it possible you did? 21 A: I would think it was probable that I 22 did. 23 Q: All right. And there were a number of 24 people at that briefing on September -- the morning of 25 September the 6th, weren't there?
2171 A: There would be a number of them, yes. 2 Q: Now, you were asked about the use of 3 pepper spray and the -- your expectation that an officer 4 would file a Use of Force report. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you were -- and that was in the 7 context of information you weren't aware of at the time 8 that apparently Constable Gransden had used pepper spray 9 on the picnic table incident, the evening of September the 10 5th, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And Constable Gransden has testified 13 in these proceedings already that he did file a Use of 14 Force report. 15 Is that consistent with what you'd expect 16 him to do? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Right. And I understand that those 19 Use of Force reports by legislative mandate, are purged in 20 a period of time shortly after they're -- they're filed? 21 A: Yes. I couldn't tell you the time 22 frame, but they are. 23 Q: Yeah, right. And the -- the scribe 24 notes for September the 6th at 8:11 a.m., that is the next 25 morning, indicate that -- this is at page 51, that Mark
2181 Gransden pepper sprayed someone thinking he got -- thinks 2 he got him with spray. 3 So it appears at least from the scribe 4 notes that there was a report that went to the Incident 5 Commander concerning that incident and including Mark 6 Gransden's pepper spraying. 7 Is that consistent with what your 8 expectations were -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- would be of an officer in those -- 11 A: It is. 12 Q: -- circumstances? 13 A: That is, yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now, let me take you to the -- the 18 assignment of the Oscar team, Constables Whelan and 19 Mortimer and as I understand your evidence, you were 20 asked to select from amongst the District 1 ERT members, 21 two (2) officers to be part of the Oscar team, to make up 22 the Oscar team? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And it was -- it was left to you to 25 select which officers would form that Oscar team?
2191 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you did that? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And you selected Officers Whelan and 5 Mortimer? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Were you involved in then assigning 8 them the actual duties that they were to perform as an 9 Oscar team? 10 A: No, I wasn't. 11 Q: Someone else was left with that 12 responsibility? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: So you didn't direct them in any way 15 in their performance of their duties as an Oscar team? 16 A: No, I didn't. 17 Q: Okay, let me just then take you to the 18 word 'debriefing' in the context of Dr. Hoath, the meeting 19 with -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- Dr. Hoath. We've understood 22 debriefing in an operational sense -- 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: -- to talk about the operation itself. 25 A: Yes.
2201 Q: How do you mean the word -- how do you 2 use the word 'debrief' in the context of meeting with the 3 Force psychologist? 4 What do you mean by that word? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: What's the kind of meeting -- what's 9 the kind of meeting that occurs? What kind of things are 10 discussed in that kind of meeting? 11 A: Well, it depends on -- on, obviously, 12 what has taken place. A situation like that people would 13 discuss how they're feeling, what fears they had, et 14 cetera, in a high critical incident stress. 15 We've had -- unfortunately, we had a -- 16 we've utilized the Force psychologist in other matters 17 that I was involved in. We had an officer that committed 18 suicide and we had the Force psychologist in and in that 19 instance, you would discuss a lot of different matters. 20 We -- we didn't discuss -- we wouldn't 21 discuss operational matters. It was more a matter of -- 22 Q: Is it -- 23 A: -- making sure. 24 Q: -- fair to say, you've used the word 25 'feelings', is that what you're discussing? Your
2211 emotional response -- 2 A: Exactly. 3 Q: The emotional effect that the 4 operation has had on you? 5 A: That's right, yeah. We had a -- and 6 obviously, I -- you know, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a 7 psychologist, but -- but when people, not just officers, 8 but any -- people are involved in -- in an incident such 9 as this or other critical incident matters, sometimes it's 10 not evident for days or weeks, even, that the effect that 11 it's had on them. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: Sometimes bottling it up tends to 14 exacerbate the situation later on, so... 15 Q: So is it fair to say then that what 16 you're dealing with is the emotions that -- that have been 17 evoked in the officers as a result of the incident? 18 A: I would say that's fair, yes. 19 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you Mr. 21 Roland. 22 Mr. Millar...? 23 24 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: I just have one (1) question and I'm
2221 referring to Exhibit 426, page 62 and it's a briefing at 2 14:27 hours. 3 I know you were off duty in the afternoon 4 of September 6th, but Mark Wright's leading the meeting 5 and were you told that -- and I'm reading from the scribe 6 note: 7 "John Carson wants a couple of guys to 8 sit on beach with night vision to see if 9 they're coming near property at night." 10 Were you told about that on September the 11 6th? 12 A: I don't recall that, no. 13 Q: Great. Those are my questions, 14 Commissioner. I'd like to thank you again, Sergeant 15 Graham, for coming and giving evidence at the Inquiry. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 17 thank you as well for coming and giving us your evidence. 18 You're finished. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 21 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So we don't have 24 another witness for this afternoon and we'll be back on, 25 on Monday morning at I guess, ten o'clock with Constable
2231 Zupancic. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you on Monday 4 morning. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 adjourned until Monday, April 24th at 10:00 a.m. 7 8 --- Upon adjourning at 1:21 p.m. 9 10 11 12 Certified Correct, 13 14 15 16 _________________ 17 Carol Geehan, Ms. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25