1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 21st, 2005 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) (np) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) (np) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) 25 Susan Freeborn ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) (np) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Erin Tully ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 Kelly Graham ) Mark Arthur Watt 25 Jill Simpson )


1 LIST OF APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kelly Graham ) Malcolm Gilpin, Mark Watt, 4 Jill Sampson ) John Tedball, Cesare 5 DiCesare and Robert Kenneth 6 Scott 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 GEOFFREY FULTON CONNORS, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 7 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 114 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 165 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 185 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 195 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 199 12 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 205 13 14 MARK ARTHUR WATT, Sworn 15 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 217 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 230 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 349(A) Digital Map (hard copy) of North East 4 Section of Lambton County Map No. 1 12 5 349(B) Electronic copy of North East section 6 of Lambton County Map No. 1 98 7 350 Document No. 5000195 list of CACC 8 Staff involved (Standby request on 9 September 11/'95 27 10 351 Document No. 5000215 transcript from 11 tape of September 6/7/'95 186 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THIS REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 GEOFFREY FULTON CONNORS, Resumed 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. Connors. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: I just want to take a couple of 17 minutes to recap what -- what we heard yesterday. 18 Is it correct that at approximately 19:00 19 hours on September the 6th, 1995, you received a request 20 from the OPP and Sergeant Reid in particular, to dispatch 21 two (2) ambulance units to the MNR parking lot? 22 A: That was -- that occurred at about 23 21:00 hours. 24 Q: No, the request? Was the request not 25 at 19:00 hours?


1 A: No. My shift started at seven 2 o'clock which is 19:00. 3 Q: Oh, quite right. Okay, thank you. 4 All right. 21:00 hours. Thank you very much. 5 And then at about 21:53 Units 1145 and 6 1146 arrived at the MNR parking lot? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And then between approximately eleven 9 o'clock or 23:00 and 23:15, you receive an order of 10 sequence, a call, private citizen's call from the 11 Ipperwash Park store payphone which was disconnected? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And you called the OPP and attempted 14 to -- to make several call-backs although unsuccessfully? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: You then received a 911 operator call 17 reporting that she has received a call advising two (2) 18 people have been shot originating from 9780 Army Camp 19 Road? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And then you receive advice from your 22 ambulance attendants 1146 or 1145 that they are at the 23 Army Camp Road and 21 Highway and may be transporting 24 with respect to Nick Cotrelle? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And at this point in time there is no 2 Ministry of Health ambulance unit at the MNR parking lot? 3 A: That's right. There was not. 4 Q: Okay. So, that by at least 11:15 and 5 likely a little before, I should be consistent, 23:15, 6 there was no ambulance unit at the MNR parking lot? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: However, did you have other 9 ambulances on standby in the area of the Ipperwash Park 10 and Camp Ipperwash around 11:15? 11 A: Once the 1145 and 1146 were 12 committed, or they were tied up, we did have other units 13 sitting at the Forest Ambulance Station at that time. 14 Q: All right. And, perhaps just looking 15 at the map behind you, could you point out where the 16 ambulance -- Forest Ambulance Station is, I believe it - 17 - it may be marked? 18 A: Okay. Just give me a second. The -- 19 with the background, it's going to be taking me a while 20 to focus here. 21 Q: Sure. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: This is the town of Forest right


1 here. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may want 3 to use the portable microphone -- 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so we can 6 get the evidence on the record. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: That's it, yeah. 10 A: Is it on? 11 Q: That's good. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: Maybe use your laser printer so -- 14 pointer so that people can see. 15 A: Is that working at all? 16 Q: Yeah -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The battery 18 might be going on it. 19 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's very low, 20 it's... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Is it up there?


1 A: This is the town of Forest right 2 here. 3 Q: Okay. We'll put it up on the screen 4 as well, but maybe you could just identify the location 5 for the record and what streets -- what street is that? 6 Can -- can you identify -- 7 A: This street here? Is that what 8 you're talk -- referring to? 9 Q: I'm referencing the location of the 10 Forest Ambulance Station; isn't that what you were 11 referencing? 12 A: Forest Ambulance Station is on 13 Highway 21 north of -- just heading out of town. 14 Q: All right. And, can you see it on 15 that map? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 17 probably clearer if he marks it the screen. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We -- we will but I 19 want him to first -- 20 THE WITNESS: It is right here, yes, I 21 didn't know it was marked. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Okay. And can you just identify it 25 for the record and I'll ask you to point it out over --


1 on the screen, which is an image of the -- the same map? 2 A: That'd be right here -- 3 Q: All right. And, it's labelled, 4 Forest Ambulance Station? 5 A: Right. It's -- I'm in a different 6 angle here, so it's difficult to see. 7 Q: And, what road is that on? 8 A: I noticed 21 Highway. I believe it 9 might be known as Rawlings Road, as well. 10 Q: All right. And, can you please mark, 11 Mr. Emery, the location of the Forest Ambulance Station 12 as identified by Mr. Connors? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Thank you. Commissioner, I'd like to 17 make the digital version of this map the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-349, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-349. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-349(A): Digital Map (hard copy) of 22 North East Section of Lambton 23 County Map No. 1 24 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Now, I'll just advise


1 for the record that we will be referring to the same 2 image from time to time in this Witness' evidence and in 3 other witness' evidence and we intend to have a composite 4 at the end of the -- the testimony. Okay. Right. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. Now, just -- just for 8 clarification in relation to the sequence of calls that I 9 read to you concerning the 23:00 time period; the private 10 citizen call from the Ipperwash Park store pay phone was, 11 in fact, the call, you received that advice from the 911 12 Operator? 13 A: She just passed on information to me 14 of what she had heard. 15 Q: All right. So, those two (2) events 16 are, in fact, the same event? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. All right. I'd like to 19 now play for you a tape of telephone conversations. And 20 for the record, the transcript of this conversation is 21 found at your Tab 8, Mr. Connors, but it's Inquiry 22 Document Number 5000215. And for ease of reference of 23 Counsel, the page references are 2662 to 2673. 24 And I wonder, Mr. Connors, would you first 25 look at the last page of that document, at page 2673?


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: Do you recognize your signature 3 there? 4 A: Yes, at the bottom. 5 Q: And the date of September 26th, 1995? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And Judy Carnegie, you already 8 identified as the administrative assistant; do you -- do 9 you recognize that signature? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And she was employed with your 12 organization as an administrative assistant? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And this indicates that a transcript 15 was typed from the cassette recordings of the original 16 tape on September 26th, 1995 at Wallaceburg. 17 Is this the tape that your ambulance 18 service had? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And just for the record, 21 this is -- this transcript, as will become self evident, 22 ends at about -- about nine (9) minutes short of the 23 actual call. So, for the last nine (9) minutes of the 24 call we'll all have to listen very carefully to the tape. 25 Also, note for the record that there will


1 be some overlap with the tape I played yesterday because 2 the source of this tape is the Wallaceburg Ambulance 3 Centre whereas the source of yesterday's tape was the OPP 4 command post. 5 6 (911 CALL PLAYED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Okay. I'm going to -- I'm going 10 to just pause it there. Did you recognize the -- the two 11 (2) speakers on that? 12 A: Sergeant Cousineau and my dispatcher 13 Jack Knight. 14 Q: Okay. And so where we see, they had 15 designation OPP, that Sergeant Cousineau, to the best of 16 your knowledge? 17 A: That's right. That's correct. 18 Q: And the designation of Jack, is Jack 19 Knight. 20 A: Sergeant Cousineau's the main player 21 and there is another individual from the OPP there as 22 well. 23 Q: In the background? 24 A: He answered the phone I think. 25 Q: Oh, okay. Right. Thank you. And


1 can you just tell us what -- in a nutshell what just 2 transpired, practically speaking? 3 A: Sergeant Cousineau called our centre 4 basically to inquire regarding the incident at Ipperwash 5 and advising that he requires two (2) ambulances. 6 Q: All right. And for the record, the 7 first line of the transcript indicates that Mr. Knight 8 answers the phone by saying, "Ambulance 23:06". 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And what does the 23:06 stand for? 11 A: That's the time of the day right 12 then. 13 Q: And so was that his standard practice 14 to answer the phone and then with -- with the time? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: All right. So, for the record it 17 would appear at least from this source that this 18 conversation begins at 11:06 and runs continuous to the 19 end of the thirty-nine (39) minute tape. All right. 20 21 (911 CALL PLAYED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: All right. Just those last two (2) 25 statements; the first voice, whose was that?


1 A: That was mine. 2 Q: All right. And, the second voice? 3 A: Was Jack Knight's. 4 Q: And, so this signifies that the two 5 (2) of you were obviously in close proximity while all 6 this is taking place? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 10 (911 CALL PLAYED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: All right. And the reference to 14 1146, that's the ambulance unit? 15 A: That's right, yes, it is. 16 Q: And, so the speaker was the ambulance 17 attendant from that unit saying they could be 18 transporting? 19 A: That's the paramedic, yes. 20 Q: All right. Thank you. 21 And -- and, when he says he, "may be 22 transporting," what does that mean? 23 A: It surprised us. We didn't expect 24 them to be down there and we didn't even know they were 25 being utilized at that time.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: So, once they said they could be 3 transporting, we basically had to realign all our ducks; 4 we didn't know what -- for coverage, etcetera. 5 Q: All right. 6 7 (911 CALL PLAYED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA 10 Q: All right. So, at this point, 11 essentially, you've got Sergeant Reid on one (1) line, 12 Sergeant Cousineau on the other line and Mr. Knight is 13 saying to Sergeant Cousineau, Don't hang up, and he's 14 presumably having a conversation now with Sergeant Reid, 15 or you are? 16 A: I'm -- I believe I would be. 17 Q: Okay, thank you. 18 19 (911 CALL PLAYED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA 22 Q: Okay. So, at this -- this past 23 series of comments, it appears that what's going on is -- 24 is you've got two (2) ambulances that have been 25 apparently dispatched to a location; you're not sure if


1 one or both will be transporting an injured party and the 2 instructions coming back from the OPP is to ensure that 3 there are no lower -- no fewer than two (2) ambulance 4 units available at that location. 5 Now, do you now what location was being 6 referred to? 7 A: I'm -- we are presuming the MNR 8 parking lot. 9 Q: All right. That's what you were 10 assuming at the time? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: All right. And, just for the record, 13 we are now at the four (4) minute and twenty-four (24) 14 second mark at this point of the tape. 15 16 (911 CALL PLAYED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Now, just in that series there, 20 here's at -- the OPP are in -- is that -- would that be 21 Sergeant Reid? 22 A: That would be Sergeant Reid. 23 Q: And he's speaking to you at this 24 time? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And he indicates, "don't send the 2 ambulances now"? 3 A: Don't send the ambulances; that's 4 right. 5 Q: And so what did you understand that 6 to mean; don't send them where? 7 A: I -- I'm presuming -- when he asked 8 if they're moving and we asked the ambulance crews if 9 they were moving, I'm just presuming that they had 10 feedback back from some of their people, wondering why 11 the ambulances are moving. I'm just guessing, because 12 I'm not sure. 13 But -- and that's why he's saying, don't 14 send them any -- any close -- anywhere further in. 15 Meanwhile, we didn't -- we didn't direct them to do 16 anything anyways. 17 Q: So, you understood that comment to 18 relate to Units 1145 and 1146? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. I just want to make in


1 the record that we are now at marker seven (7) minute and 2 thirteen (13) seconds into this conversation as it -- to 3 start. 4 5 (911 CALL PLAYED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Okay. Now, that -- that part of the 9 conversation ends at marker, fourteen (14) minutes and 10 fifty-five (55) seconds, into this tape, and that part of 11 the conversation was approximately six (6) to seven (7) 12 minutes, this -- this exchange involving the 911 operator 13 and the police officers. 14 Now, there seems, from that passage, to 15 have been some confusion on the part of the OPP and -- 16 and yourself with respect to where 9780 Army Camp Road 17 was? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And, do you know now that that was 20 the address and is the address of the Ipperwash 21 Provincial Park? 22 A: Yes, that's right. I knew it was, 23 however, multi-tasking, doing various things, I didn't 24 give that information to Sergeant Cousineau. I should 25 have, but I didn't -- I was caught up with something else


1 and I didn't provide that information to him. 2 Q: And, it seems that there was some 3 confusion with respect to the Army Camp versus Stoney 4 Point and whether they were one and the same place? 5 A: I believe -- I'm -- I'm not sure 6 whether they are. I believe they are, but I'm not 7 familiar with the -- the names that people that reside in 8 the area would be. 9 Q: Fair enough. And is it fair to say 10 that with -- with some notice, this might have been 11 information that you would have ascertained in advance of 12 these events? 13 A: Can you repeat that? 14 Q: With some notice that there was going 15 to be an incident, perhaps, or something transpiring in 16 the evening of September the 6th, would you have 17 undertaken to -- to get the addresses of the relevant 18 locations? 19 A: If we were -- if this was scheduled 20 sort of thing, is that what you mean? 21 Q: Yes, if you were given the head's-up 22 that something might transpire in and around the Park 23 that night? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No?


1 A: I don't -- I don't think it's -- it's 2 really not relevant because we -- they -- they can't 3 forecast where something like this is going to occur. 4 Q: All right. Okay. And, it appears 5 that towards the end of that conversation, there's an 6 exchange just at the very end where you ask the OPP 7 officer: 8 "Do you need more than two (2) 9 ambulances down there?" 10 This is on page 5. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And, the response is: 13 "No ambulances, just get a phone 14 number, or just a phone number." 15 How did you interpret that response? 16 A: Just that he requires the 243-1255 17 number. 18 Q: And, that he didn't require further 19 ambulances -- 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: -- to that location? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: All right. And, in the meantime, you 24 -- you make a reference to someone called Dan; you say 25 Darcy or Dan?


1 A: Right. 2 Q: Who are those -- 3 A: What I'm -- what I'm doing there is - 4 - this is how hectic things can be in there. What we're 5 doing is, it's a very busy night -- what we're doing is, 6 I'm conducting -- I'm on the phone with Sergeant 7 Cousineau. 8 A: Yes? 9 A: I'm communicating with my dispatcher 10 Jack; you can hear that. I'm talking with the 911 11 Centre. I'm doing other business in Kent County which 12 isn't on our tape and I believe I -- prior to this I even 13 spoke with Mr. Gilpin; we're arranging coverage. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: So, Dan and Darcy our other crew 16 members. So, besides doing all this other business, I'm 17 trying to phone other people in for coverage as well. 18 Q: All right. And assuming that this -- 19 that the start of this tape commenced at 11:06 or 23:06 20 p.m. on -- on September the 6th, we are now at the -- 21 approximately the 23:21 or 11:21 p.m. mark in this series 22 of events. All right I'll resume play then. 23 24 (911 CALL PLAYED) 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: All right. So -- just so that we all 3 understand then what just transpired; firstly, was that 4 Jack Knight who was speaking? 5 A: That's right on the radio. 6 Q: And -- and this was -- could you 7 identify the person who is calling, associated with Unit 8 1146? 9 A: That would be John Tedball. 10 Q: John Tedball. And he has indicated 11 that both his unit and 1145 are on a Code 4 to the -- to 12 the Highway 21 and Army Camp Road area? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (911 CALL PLAYED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY SUSAN VELLA: 19 A: Susan? 20 Q: Okay, yeah. 21 A: See, even prior to Sergeant Cousineau 22 saying, you're going to have to scramble some more, 23 that's what I was doing already, speaking with Dan and 24 Darcy. We were trying to get more ambulances on the 25 down.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: On the way down. 3 Q: And -- just tell me, you said those 4 were crewmen? 5 A: Crew members. 6 Q: Crew members. And what -- were they 7 ambulance attendants? 8 A: They're paramedics as well, yes. 9 Q: And -- and what units were they 10 associated with; do you recall? 11 A: I think Darcy -- if I can go back to 12 -- I'm trying to think. The ambulance commitment form; I 13 think it's Section 8 or 6 of mine. 14 Q: Perhaps you could go to Tab 10 which 15 is a list of all of the duty roster for that evening and 16 it doesn't give us the first names but it gives us the 17 last names so perhaps that can be of assistance. 18 This in Inquiry Document Number 5000195; 19 it's page number 2529. It's entitled, CACC Staff 20 Involved. 21 A: Okay. Darcy referred to -- he would 22 have been Unit 1 -- I'm sorry, 1505. 23 Q: 1505. And what's his last name? 24 A: Thompson. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: And Dan, that would have been Dan -- 2 oh, can't remember his last name, Griffith, and obviously 3 he was unavailable. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: So, he's -- he's not a participant in 6 this. 7 Q: So, you were trying to reach him but 8 you couldn't -- couldn't get him. And is this -- just 9 while we're here, is this list an accurate depiction of - 10 - of what units you had available to you the night of 11 September the 6th, 1995? 12 A: Yes, 13 Q: And with -- they're associated crew 14 members. 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: All right. Perhaps we could make 17 this the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-350, Your 19 Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-350. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-350: Document No. 5000195 list of 23 CACC Staff involved (Standby 24 request on September 11/'95 25


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 2 Q: Okay. Perhaps, we can go back to Tab 3 8 please which is the transcript, please, which is the 4 transcript 5000215 at page 2667. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Right there. Okay. That's it, 9 great. Okay. And we're at the fifteen (15) minute, 10 fifty-eight (58) second mark. 11 12 (911 CALL PLAYED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. Now, this -- I think we 16 reviewed at least the police end of this -- this 17 conversation yesterday. Is this the -- the report with 18 respect to Marcia Simon. 19 A: In the last conversation that we've 20 just finished up here? 21 Q: Yes, about the lady saying that there 22 were people shot and police in the background. 23 A: You know what; I'm really not sure. 24 Q: All right, and for the record, this 25 conversation occurred at about 23:22, assuming again,


1 that the correct start time is 23:06. 2 3 (911 CALL PLAYED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: All right. Now, just before we get 7 on to the next part, do you recognize the voice of the -- 8 the person you were speaking with? 9 A: It's Mr. Gilpin. 10 Q: All right, and he's indicating that 11 he spoke with Sergeant Cousineau and then he wanted his 12 unit to respond to 9780 Army Camp Road? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay, thank you. 15 16 (911 CALL PLAYED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: All right. So, in the last piece 20 that we've just heard there's a conversation involving 21 Sergeant Cousineau and yourself, and was that also Jack 22 Knight in the background? 23 A: Yes, I was speaking with him just 24 across the room. 25 Q: And -- and Mr. Gilpin we'd already


1 identified. Now, here you're receiving information from 2 Mr. Gilpin as to what they've been asked to do. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: All right. And you have -- in 5 response to a question by Sergeant Cousineau, you 6 indicate that they would be -- your units would be 7 transporting to the Strathroy Hospital? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And we've talked 10 yesterday about how that decision was made. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: All right. Maybe you can just repeat 13 that again, for the record? 14 A: We -- through -- it wasn't a decision 15 that was made hastily. We just decided that the 16 proximity, obviously noting the transfer time from 1146 17 when they transported Nick Cotrelle to Strathroy, it was 18 like -- I believe it was like twenty-six (26) minutes and 19 I know it's -- even running in a -- a Code 4 fast pace, 20 it's more than that to go to Sarnia General. 21 So, the decision was made earlier to go to 22 Strathroy. 23 Q: All right. And this was understood 24 by your -- your crew members at that time? 25 A: No. It's -- they -- they were aware


1 of that, too. They know the travel distances. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: But, if the -- if the situation arose 4 that somebody asked me, if it was a crew member or -- or 5 anyone else, we are prepared to suggest Strathroy. 6 Q: But, didn't you also have a 7 conversation with Matt Gilpin in advance of this -- of 8 this -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- occurrence and, with him, decided 11 that Strathroy was the appropriate hospital? 12 A: I don't recall that. I remember the 13 conversation, but in working cooperative with the -- with 14 him -- with us, rather -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- he would have been more 17 knowledgeable about that than I would have. 18 Q: Is that something that would be 19 reflected in your incident report? 20 A: It's quite possible. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: All right. Perhaps -- I'm sorry to 25 digress here, but perhaps we can go to Tab 5 of your


1 document. It's Inquiry Document Number 1002002. And 2 it's eighty-one (81) pages in, approximately, so that's 3 Front Number 9598. 4 It's entitled, Daily Dispatch Log Summary. 5 It's dated September 6th, 1995, 21:37 hours. 6 Now, this is a series of -- of documents 7 that are entitled, Daily Dispatch Log Summary. It has 8 your number in it; 98761. 9 Does that mean that you inputted this 10 information? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you have inputted it, at least 13 starting at 21:37. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I see there's -- there's updates or 18 modifications? 19 A: Right. It all -- for this evening, 20 it starts at 21:00 hours and then -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- I know what you're referring to 23 then. 24 Q: Okay, fair enough. And then it says, 25 "last modified, 23:59", so just -- just one (1) minute


1 before midnight -- 2 A: Where -- 3 Q: -- and -- 4 A: -- oh, yes, okay, yeah. 5 Q: Okay, so that's when you put 6 additional information in there? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And it records, Mac Gilpin called at 9 22:50, advising -- and I assume it would have been at 10 22:50; is that right? 11 A: This is one of the things that I'm 12 doing through the -- through the evening -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- when I get an opportunity. 15 Q: All right. This is when you inputted 16 it? 17 A: Yes, at 22:50 I did. 18 Q: Or press -- pressed the enter button? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. 21 "Mac Gilpin called advising that Ted 22 Slomer who was also a medic with the 23 OPP is also present. Mac has inquired 24 what hospital was closest. We believe 25 that Strathroy Emergency is the closest


1 to the Ipperwash area." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So, you had a conversation with Mr. 4 Gilpin, presumably while he was still at the MNR parking 5 lot and having a conversation with Ted Slomer? 6 A: I don't know if he had a conversation 7 with Ted Slomer, but he -- he was probably just making 8 note that Slomer was with him. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: We knew him from previous ambulance 11 dealings? 12 Q: Had you? All right. Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And just for the record, that was 17 Exhibit P-345. I wonder if we could move back to the 18 transcript at your Tab 8, Inquiry document number 19 5000215, page 2668. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: All right. Great. 24 25 (911 CALL PLAYED)


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 2 Q: All right. Now, I just want to make 3 specific reference to this. This is at the marker 4 nineteen (19) minutes and twenty-three (23) seconds into 5 the tape. 6 We see there is a background conversation 7 with -- a statement by Jack Knight: 8 "Dispatched Unit 1147, Code 8 to OPP 9 checkpoint Ipperwash Road." 10 1147 was one of your other units? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And at that point Jack Knight is -- 13 is advising 1147 to go to the OPP checkpoint on a 14 standby? 15 A: That's right for additional coverage. 16 And they were going from the Forest station. 17 Q: From the Forest ambulance station? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And again, is this the -- is this the 20 MNR parking lot then? 21 A: Where they were directed to? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And that would have been about 11:25 4 or 23:25, just for the record that this ambulance was 5 dispatched down to the MNR parking lot. We'll resume 6 now. 7 8 (911 CALL PLAYED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA 11 Q: All right. Just before we get to 12 that, just so that I -- we understand, throughout this 13 whole period of time you're trying to reach 243-8953? 14 A: Yes. Either that one or 1255; 243- 15 1255. 16 Q: Okay. And ultimately you were able 17 to get -- or at least the operator was able to reconnect 18 but the person didn't stay on the line. All right. 19 20 (911 CALL PLAYED) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 23 Q: All right. Now, that conversa -- 24 first of all, can you identify the caller? 25 A: I believe that was Mr. Veens.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: Or, it was Mr. Veens. 3 Q: And, for the record, assuming again 4 that this started at 23:06, that's about twenty (20) 5 minutes and twenty-five (25) seconds into the tape, which 6 would make the time approximate that this call commenced 7 was about -- about 23:27? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And, there appeared to be 10 some -- some confusion with respect to the location of 11 this residence, perhaps you can comment on that? 12 A: There -- there was no confusion on 13 his part by any means. But, if I can set the stage here, 14 at my -- at the computer stations, we both have two (2) 15 monitors to work with and the left monitor has one (1) 16 session as you -- they're -- they're referred to as and 17 it's just like pages. 18 There's only one (1) session on the left 19 monitor. On the right monitor there's five (5) and with 20 a series of keys we can flip through different pages on 21 the one (1) monitor. 22 And so, on the left monitor I always had 23 a, it's called a status queue, it just lists all the 24 ambulances that were under our direction that night and 25 what they're doing and it updates continuously for every


1 -- every action that we do within the computer, so we can 2 see at a glance what's going on. 3 On the other monitor, I'm dealing with -- 4 I have -- remember our shift log that we spoke about with 5 Mr. Gilpin at 22:50? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: That was on one (1) of the pages. I 8 kept that up because I was continually updating that. 9 On another page, there was the previous 10 Ipperwash 9780 Army Camp Road call. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: That was left up on the other page 13 and I also had other business from Kent County on the 14 other pages. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: So, I lost my focus. I know that 17 they called in. I initially saw the information from 18 Nauvoo Road, hit the appropriate key, but I didn't drop 19 it, basically, into the template. 20 I was what we refer to as toggling around, 21 going into other pages, other sessions on that -- on that 22 monitor. And when it -- when it comes up from the Veens 23 residence, it doesn't say they're out in a rural area, it 24 says -- I'm sorry, what's the address again? 25 Q: 6840 Nauvoo Road.


1 A: 6840 Nauvoo Road. 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: Arkona/Warwick Township. I was 4 focussed on the Arkona and that's why I was misled, not 5 by the caller by any means, just looking at that. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And then, here I go again, I'm going 8 to another page trying to find the call where -- the 9 Nauvoo Road. I see a template, I didn't look exactly 10 where I should have. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And that was the stale call from 13 twenty (20) -- from the -- from the Park Store on Army 14 Camp Road. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: That's why I asked Veens, Okay, so 17 you're at -- you're at Ipperwash Park. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I lost my focus initially. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: Then, once I realized where he was, 22 we got down to business and I told him the ambulance was 23 on the way, the call was committed to the system -- or, 24 initially, remember I told Jack, I said, Disregard this 25 one?


1 Q: Yes, says, Cancel that one. 2 A: Cancel that one, because that was to 3 the -- 4 Q: The Park store. 5 A: -- the Park store. So, I told him, 6 Disregard that one; that's -- that's not the one you 7 want. Then, I realized what I had done, so I committed 8 the call for Nauvoo Road to my dispatcher. 9 Q: Okay. And, that's the typing that 10 we're hearing in the background is you working, inputting 11 that information? 12 A: Yes. Right. 13 Q: Okay. Thank you. 14 A: That's the confusion that -- in the 15 beginning. 16 Q: Thank you. 17 18 (911 CALL PLAYED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Okay. And at that point, we're at 22 twenty-three (23) minutes and nineteen (19) seconds into 23 the tape. 24 Now, the -- to recap this -- this 25 discussion, you were having a conversation with Mac


1 Gilpin at the outset of it. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And he's trying to give you a status 4 update as to where he is and what he is doing. 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And it appears from this that -- that 7 he also was aware of the second gunshot victim? 8 A: He -- obviously he was, yes. 9 Q: All right. And he indicates to you 10 that the Nauvoo Road call should be given to Unit 1147? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: So, that's a different unit from his; 13 he was 1146? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. And then there's a further 16 conversation between Jack Knight and the attendant from 17 1145. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And this is the unit that is now 20 transporting Nick Cotrelle? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And then Jack Knight 23 calls a code 4 in, with respect to 6840 Nauvoo Road, and 24 he presumably assigns that to a unit? 25 A: He assigns that to 1145.


1 Q: All right. And given Mr. Gilpin's 2 advice that 1147 was closer and should be given the call, 3 do you have any explanation as to why it was assigned 4 instead to 1145? 5 A: Mr. Gilpin wasn't aware that we had 6 already moved 1147. That was the Thedford vehicle -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- from the Forest station on the way 9 down to the MNR. 10 Q: All right. So -- 11 A: So, they weren't aware -- had they 12 been at the Forest station, that's right, they would have 13 been a more appropriate vehicle. 14 Q: Okay. And 1145 and -- or 1146, I 15 should say, is at Army Camp Road and 21 Highway -- 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: -- at this point, so he's a little 18 closer than the unit on it's way to the MNR parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right, thank you. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. Now, here you're having a


1 conversation with someone identified as Ron. Who is 2 that? 3 A: That is Ron Van Hee. Ron is at 4 London Communications Centre. 5 Q: All right. And what's the purpose of 6 this call? 7 A: This call is -- basically, what we're 8 doing is we're borrowing a couple of their units for our 9 use. And we usually do it over the computer or the 10 telephone or, rather, both -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- but Ron had already been briefed 13 on what was going on and he -- he's in the business and 14 so he knew the -- the urgency and he had already been 15 made aware that may need extra vehicles from him. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Now, do you want me to go over this 18 double dispatching business? 19 Q: I'd love to know what that is. 20 A: Okay. Double dispatching is: We can 21 -- we can call up and ask them on the telephone to borrow 22 an ambulance, but it has to be recorded in the ambulance 23 system and so what we do is we generate, basically, it's 24 a call and it's a request from another ambulance dispatch 25 centre to use one of their ambulances.


1 Q: Okay. So -- so, it's when -- it's 2 when the request is coming from one ambulance service to 3 another, so in that sense there are two (2) dispatches 4 happening; you to the other ambulance service and the 5 ambulance server -- service to their unit? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Okay. And just for the record, we're 8 now at approximately 23:39 or 23:30 hours on September 9 the 6th, 1995. 10 11 (911 CALL PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 14 Q: All right. Now, in this part of the 15 call, you're advising Sergeant Cousineau of the fact that 16 you've received this -- this request for an ambulance? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And it's about twenty-seven (27) 19 minutes into the tape, and can I ask you, was the line 20 being held open with respect to the caller, the Veens, 21 from Nauvoo Road? 22 A: Yes. He was on hold this time. 23 Q: And why did you keep him on hold 24 during this time? 25 A: I kept him on hold because I needed -


1 - I wanted to get more information from him. It didn't 2 seem like there was a severe threat right there at that 3 period in time, like, within the residence. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And I had some business to take care 6 of obviously and some -- some people to notify, and then 7 I do eventually get back and speak with the caller. 8 Q: And is it so that it's quicker for 9 you to reach this person; they're on the line so you 10 scan -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- immediately speak to them? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And this would be at 15 about 23 -- 23:32 approximately? 16 A: Yes. I do make it known to the 17 caller later on that they won't be able to call out. 18 Q: All right. Well, we'll -- we'll get 19 to that. 20 A: All right. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. Now, just before we get


1 onto the next part, obviously there was a different 2 speaker or caller on this line; who did you understand 3 that to be? 4 A: A female. I don't know if it's Mrs. 5 Veens or not, but... 6 Q: Okay. It's the same line, obviously? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And, you ask whether the 9 police are there yet? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Did you have an expectation that the 12 police would be dispatched to this home? 13 A: I notified the police and it's just - 14 - it's an understanding that -- we don't take it for 15 granted, mind you, but whenever there's an indication 16 that there has been some violence or there's a -- a 17 concern for the ambulance crew's safety, the police are 18 always notified; that is just, it's mandated, it's -- 19 it's policy and it just goes without question. 20 Q: All right. And, what's the purpose 21 of notifying the police, then? 22 A: We notified the police a) of the call 23 that took place. We were going -- we had an ambulance on 24 the way to help a victim who was at this scene at this 25 time in a vehicle and to respond for security for the


1 ambulance crew who was on the way. 2 Q: All right. And, just for the record, 3 we're now at about 23:00 -- 34:00 hours or 11:34 p.m., 4 again assuming that the start time of this tape is 5 correct. 6 7 (911 CALL PLAYED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: All right. So, now the male caller 11 from Nauvoo Road is back on the line and you've been 12 advised that the patient has left and that they don't 13 know which way that they've left -- what direction 14 they've taken? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And, for the record, this is 17 approximately twenty-nine (29) minutes and twenty-three 18 (23) seconds or thereabouts into this telephone call or 19 about 23:34 -- 35, excuse me, and you disconnect at this 20 time? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: Had you, in fact, sent a cancellation 23 of that dispatch of 11:45? 24 A: Not at this point, no. 25 Q: All right. So, they were continuing


1 en route as far as you know? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (911 CALL PLAYED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. So, there you're having a 8 conversation with your attendant at 11:45 and as at this 9 time, at least, he's instructed to carry on to the scene 10 at Nauvoo Road? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And you are about to speak with the 13 police? 14 A: Yes. You can also see that the 15 paramedic there had inquired about the OPP. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And that's -- it's just -- it's not 18 taken for granted, like I said, but it's just second 19 nature that the police are notified and they attend with 20 the ambulance in that sense. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. 22 23 (911 CALL PLAYED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:


1 Q: All right. Now, at this moment in 2 time then, is -- you appear to be cancelling the request 3 -- dispatch, I should say, for 1145 to go to Nauvoo Road? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And for the record, this is thirty- 6 one (31) minutes and seventeen (17) seconds into the 7 playing of the tape, and assuming my math isn't too 8 terribly off, then that would be at approximately 11:37 9 p.m. or 23:37 hours approximately, that you cancelled the 10 call? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And can you tell me what 13 the reason was for cancelling the call at this time? 14 A: We -- this is normal practice when it 15 appears that there is no patient at a location where we 16 were told earlier; we -- we discontinue the transport. 17 There -- it's a -- it's just the Ministry 18 -- we just don't continue on, especially if we've been 19 told that the -- there is absolutely no patient there and 20 we were told that they had left. 21 We just don't continue on with lights and 22 sirens to endanger the crew, anyone else on the road. 23 It's just not a practice that's -- that's maintained. 24 Q: All right. Now, had the OPP located 25 this car enroute to this vehicle transporting whom we


1 know now to have been Dudley George, would you have 2 expected to have received a dispatch or a request from 3 the OPP? 4 A: Certainly. 5 Q: And -- and at that time, would you 6 have dispatched an ambulance to meet that car? 7 A: We would have tried to, not intercept 8 them, but certainly we would have gone to where we were 9 directed to -- 10 Q: All right. 11 A: -- had the OPP met them. 12 Q: Thank you. Now, as you can see, 13 Commissioner, that's the end of the transcript but there 14 are a few minutes left on this tape and I think, for the 15 record, we should play the balance of the tape. 16 17 (911 CALL PLAYED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: And for the record, it appears that 21 you called back Nauvoo Road? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at whose request did you call 24 back? 25 A: The OPP's.


1 Q: And what did -- what was the purpose 2 of that call? 3 A: They were -- they inquired whether 4 they had advised us, or me, whether we had -- they had 5 seen any weapons and -- 6 Q: All right. And -- 7 A: -- I just confirmed that in the 8 telephone call. 9 Q: All right. 10 11 (911 CALL PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: All right. Now, is that your -- your 15 voice? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you were calling the OPP at that 18 point in time? 19 A: I'm advising Sergeant Cousineau with 20 what he asked. 21 Q: And you advise that these people did 22 not appear to be armed? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. 25


1 (911 CALL PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 4 Q: Now, I wonder is you can help us. 5 That appears to be background communication in which a 6 police officer is advising that he's on -- or at least 7 someone is advising that the police officer is on an 8 ambulance enroute to Strathroy. 9 Do you know which unit that was? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. Do -- 12 A: I have a -- I can presume but... 13 Q: What would you presume? 14 A: I'm just wondering whether it was a 15 St. John's unit. 16 Q: And what would lead you to that 17 presumption? 18 A: Because I confirmed with John Tedball 19 in Unit 1146 that there was not an OPP officer 20 communicating with us at that point -- 21 Q: All right. Thank you. 22 A: -- on a cell phone. 23 Q: And for the record that bit of 24 conversation is at about thirty-two (32) minutes and 25 fifty-one (51) seconds into the tape.


1 (911 CALL PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 4 Q: All right. I just want to stop it 5 there. 6 Now, I'll just note for the record that 7 the time of the call advising of the police officer in 8 the ambulance was about 11:39 or 23:39. And what we've 9 just heard is, there was a conversation with 1146, I 10 believe, Unit 46? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then a conversation with the 13 attendant from 1145. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: 1146 confirming that they're enroute 16 to Strathroy and that would be with Mr. Cotrelle? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And 1145 indicating that they are now 19 at Ravenswood Road and positioned there. 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: All right. And -- and I guess -- are 22 they now -- do you know what direction they're heading in 23 at this point? Are they -- 24 A: They're heading back, I'm presuming 25 northbound, after being cancelled from the Nauvoo Road


1 call. 2 Q: All right. And do you know where 3 they were being posting back to? 4 A: It was our intention to have them go 5 in back for coverage again towards the MNR. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And I should say that, for the 8 record, we're at about thirty-three (33) minutes and 9 thirty-six (36) seconds into the tape. 10 11 (911 CALL PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: All right. And, just that last bit, 15 that was -- was that a conversation with the OPP 16 officer? 17 A: The very last one? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: The last one was Sergeant Cousineau, 20 yes. 21 Q: Sergeant Cousineau. All right. And, 22 just for the record, we do have an excerpt of that 23 transcript in the logger-tape from the Command Post. 24 All right. And then the next -- I -- I 25 just cut off when -- somebody mentioned 11:45 and we're


1 at the thirty-five (35) minute ten (10) second mark into 2 the tape. 3 A: I should also mention that the -- the 4 previous telephone calls I made, and I spoke with the 5 fellow by the name of Doc; his -- he's in London Dispatch 6 as well. And so, basically what I'm doing is passing 7 information over to him that 1146 is on the way to 8 Strathroy with Nick Cotrelle. 9 Q: Okay. Thank you. And, were you 10 also, at this point, with Mr. Knight shuffling cars 11 around, redirecting ambulances? 12 A: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 13 Q: All right. So, when you said, Move 14 Parkhill to one other location, you're -- you're trying 15 to bring them back into the Ipperwash area? 16 A: That's right. It's just like -- they 17 have always referred to it as, just like a big chess game 18 type thing and you're -- you're always moving people 19 around into different coverages and for different means. 20 Q: Okay. Thank you. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. Now, we're at the --


1 approximately thirty-six (36) minutes and fifty-nine (59) 2 seconds into the tape or approximately 11:42 or 23:42 3 hundred hours. 4 Is -- is it -- is it true that there was 5 no MOH ambulance units down at the MNR parking lot at 6 this time? 7 A: At what time do you have now? 8 Q: Approximately 11:42 at night. 9 A: No, I think there's at least one (1) 10 down there and there's another one on the way. 11 Q: Is that -- is that not what I just 12 heard that, on here, that there were no one -- there were 13 no units down at the MNR parking lot? 14 Somebody made that comment; do you know 15 who that was? 16 A: Maybe that was me. I'm not -- I'm 17 not -- I was thinking about something else and -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- about our coverage there. 20 Q: All right. Is it your belief that 21 there was one (1) unit down there by 11:42 at night? 22 A: I believe there was, yes. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I think that's either 1140 -- 1147 or 25 1505.


1 Q: All right. Well, we will look at the 2 -- your ambulance dispatch logs in a moment to try to 3 fill in a little bit of the detail here. 4 A: All right. 5 Q: Now, was that a discussion you had 6 with Sergeant Cousineau concerning how many ambulances 7 were available and -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- whether they were at the parking 10 lot? Okay. Thank you. 11 12 (911 CALL PLAYED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. And for the record that's 16 -- that concludes the thirty-nine (39) minutes and twelve 17 (12) second segment of telephone -- recorded telephone 18 calls. 19 Now, having heard the comments with 20 respect to -- well, let me ask you this, did you hear the 21 comment that 1145 and 1505 units were dispatched to the 22 MNR parking lot? 23 A: 1147 and 1505, yes. 24 Q: Yes, thank you. And who made that 25 dispatch?


1 A: Jack Knight. 2 Q: And that was at approximately 3 thirty-seven (37) minutes and fifty-five (55) seconds 4 into the tape, which would make it approximately 23:40 5 hours; is that right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so is that likely when those cars 8 were dispatched to the MNR -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- parking lot? And so from the time 11 that 11 -- units 1145 and 1146 left the parking lot to -- 12 to this point in time, there was no MOH ambulance units 13 in the parking lot to your knowledge? 14 A: To my knowledge, that's right, no. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 Commissioner, I wonder if we might take 17 the morning break at this time and when we come back 18 we'll proceed with the logs. Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 We'll take a break. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm 22 sorry, I should have made that an exhibit, that tape. 23 Oh, it was an exhibit, excuse me. 24 For the record that CD was Exhibit P-157. 25 I apologize for that. Thank you.


1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 10:34 a.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 10:57 a.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Mr. Connors, I understand that you 18 would have dispatch logs or ambulance logs that would 19 reflect the information concerning when ambulances were 20 notified and dispatched, et cetera? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Perhaps, you would go to 23 Tab 5 of your binder. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: This is Exhibit P-345, but it's 2 Inquiry Document Number 1002002. I believe that's in 3 Volume I of the documents. And I'll be using the Front 4 Number so that people can follow along. 5 All right. Now, perhaps we could go to 6 Number 9531 first, about fourteen (14) pages into your 7 document. And this is information relative to Unit 1146 8 with Mr. Watts and Mr. Tedball as the attendants? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Do you know which of these two (2) 11 were -- was a driver that night? 12 A: I'm -- it would have been John 13 Tedball. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Only because I was communicating with 16 him when he was on the way to Strathroy with Nick 17 Cotrelle. 18 Q: Okay, fine. And I know we to this 19 yesterday but is this is the initial -- their first 20 assignment, if you will, for the evening of September the 21 6th? 22 A: Yes. This is the first request. 23 Q: And this indicates that 1146 was 24 notified at 20:56 and I think you indicated that this is 25 the unit that went down to the MNR parking lot and


1 arrived at -- they were enroute by about 21:41 and they 2 had arrived by about 21:53? 3 A: I think we -- we went over this and I 4 think we have to look at 1145 for the time they arrived. 5 See in the very bottom there it says, 6 "Enroute and Arrived Scene", next to the Remarks? 7 Q: Yeah, I do recall going through that. 8 Yeah, okay. 9 A: It would be just shortly after nine 10 o'clock p.m. 11 Q: We go over to -- sorry, to 9536. And 12 just for everyone's ease of convenience, you might recall 13 yesterday, Counsel, that I provided you with a typed two 14 (2) page document that Mr. Connors prepared. And we're 15 going to be following this document. In terms of the 16 documents we're going to announce, you'll have a record 17 of that. Will be relevant for the map as well. Okay. 18 And at 9536, that's the initial assignment 19 for Unit 1145 -- 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: -- with Mr. Diceasor and Mr. Gilpin? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And who was the driver that evening 24 for that assignment? 25 A: I believe that would have been Mr.


1 Gilpin. 2 Q: All right. And it would appear from 3 this record that Mr. Diceasor and Mr. Gilpin, they had 4 been notified later in the evening of this assignment, 5 21:34? 6 A: Yes. At the time they only requested 7 one (1). 8 Q: That's right, okay. Initially 9 Sergeant Reid requested one (1) unit and later that 10 changed to -- 11 A: A second. 12 Q: -- two (2) units. Okay. But they 13 arrive at the same time so they're enroute apparently at 14 around 21:41? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And appear to also arrive at 17 approximately 21:53? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. So, that information 20 coincides. And I'm mindful of your comments yesterday 21 that the times that we see reflected here should be more 22 or less accurate, but they reflect the time that the 23 enter button was pushed -- 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: -- not necessarily the time of the --


1 A: That's when it was physically entered 2 into the system. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you. All right. And 4 would you just explain to me, I see on each of these 5 documents with respect to 1146, there's an ultimate 6 cancellation time of 23:45 and on -- for 1145 the 7 cancellation time is 23:44; very similar. 8 But, can you tell me what that has 9 reference to for this first assignment? 10 A: Well, obviously this is a Priority 8. 11 A dispatch code up on the... 12 Q: Do you want the map up or -- Okay. 13 A: No. I can just see it right here. 14 Dispatch Code 8 read -- indicated on the -- on the map 15 here with the pointer indicates it's a- a standby for 16 coverage. And that's -- and they were brought to the MNR 17 area. 18 Now, when they are cancelled off this 19 detail, as you said earlier, at 23:45 and 23:44, 20 obviously both these units were committed to different 21 activities other than this one prior to this time. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: At 23:45, that is when dispatcher 24 Jack Knight physically had an opportunity to go in there 25 and update the status on this call.


1 Q: Okay. So, this is only relating to 2 the standby call, the stand -- for the MNR park? 3 A: Exactly. 4 Q: Okay. And clearly they left -- they 5 had left far before 23:45 so it's -- in this case, the 6 timing is not very accurate? 7 A: No, they were on another call at 8 23:11 as a matter of fact. 9 Q: Right. Okay. Thank you. All right. 10 Then if you go to number 9543. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And I'll just note for the record 15 there are three (3) zeros in front of the four (4) 16 digits, but I'm just going to read the last four (4) 17 digits. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And this again provides -- it's 22 called "List of Dispatch Details". And for Unit 1145, 23 they are notified at approximately 23:11 of an 24 assignment. They're en route at approximately 23:11 and 25 this says that they arrived at approximately 23:11.


1 Perhaps you can tell us what assignment 2 this related to and make sense of those times for us? 3 A: This assignment was reflective of the 4 Army Camp -- 9780 Army Camp Road; the Park store, the 5 Park gate. 6 Q: I'm sorry, the Park store or the Army 7 Camp? 8 A: Sorry, the Army camp. 9 Q: All right. So, at the corner of 21 10 and -- and Army Camp Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Now, we're -- right now we're looking 14 at Front Number 9543 and if you go to the two (2) pages 15 following this... 16 Q: Right, so 9544? 17 A: 9544. 18 Q: And 9545? 19 A: Okay. 9544, you can see the asterisk 20 next to the arrive time -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- on the right hand side? Remember, 23 I mentioned yesterday that that indicates that the time 24 has been altered, it's not a true time that was input in 25 the computer system. And that just flags it to --


1 basically, what we require is an explanation at the very 2 bottom. 3 where there is an explanation, it just 4 says; basically the arrive time PIE, which basically 5 means punched in error, and it has been changed to 6 reflect the true time. 7 Q: All right. So, with respect to 1146, 8 they arrived at the corner of Highway 21 and Army Camp 9 Road at about 23:16? 10 A: Both of the units did, yes. 11 Q: And both the units. And that's -- 12 that's then -- it took them approximately four (4) 13 minutes to -- to get from the MNR parking lot up to the 14 Army camp base? 15 A: According to the -- the paper it did. 16 Now, there's -- as we discussed earlier, yesterday as 17 well, that there are some movements that the ambulance 18 does, the ambulances do that dispatch is not made aware 19 of. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So, if it did take them four (4) 22 minutes, I -- I can't confirm that. 23 Q: And in this case, did you not 24 indicate that you -- you, in fact, didn't dispatch these 25 two (2) units up to 21 and Army Camp Road but rather were


1 notified by the crew that they had been dispatched by the 2 OPP? 3 A: That's right, we didn't dispatch 4 them. 5 Q: And so the notified time here, 6 normally that's when you notify the unit to take an 7 assignment, but in this case it's -- it would probably 8 closer as to when you found out about the assignment? 9 A: Exactly. Yes. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, let's go 11 to 9545. This refers -- this is called, Dispatch 12 Details, and it refers to Unit 1145. 13 This indicates -- if we go up -- can you 14 tell me what -- what assignment this reflects? 15 A: When we were -- when we were advised 16 over the radio, when John Tedball said we're getting into 17 position and we might be transporting, that -- that's the 18 particular time when these two (2) calls were created and 19 -- excuse me, input into the system. 20 And at the time, we didn't know how many 21 victims we -- we had at the time -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- or what the situation was, but in 24 the event, because those two (2) ambulances are together, 25 we put them both on a separate dispatch.


1 Q: All right. Okay. So, that -- 2 A: Just in order to track them. 3 Q: That finishes off, then, the 4 reporting details with respect to the dispatch to -- to 5 Army Camp Road and -- 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: -- Highway 21. 8 Now, I wonder if you would next go to page 9 9520, so it's right at the beginning, close to the 10 beginning of the documents. 11 Now, this document's called, Emergency 12 Details. Now, what distinguishes this document from the 13 other one? 14 A: It's definitely associated with the 15 other one, however, different call numbers, but the 16 Emergency Details, is the information that's gathered 17 from the caller where the ambulance is required and the 18 emergency or the dispatch details reflects the -- the 19 times that are associated with the car's movements. 20 Q: All right. And, this, can you just 21 tell us what information is reflected on 9520? 22 A: Okay. Now, remember earlier on I -- 23 I explained the initial confusion when I spoke with Veens 24 about, you're in Arkona? 25 Q: Yes.


1 A: And... 2 Q: Okay. So, first of all, does this 3 relate to the dispatching of 1145 to the Veens residence 4 on Nauvoo Road? 5 A: Yes, it does. 6 Q: Okay, carry on. 7 A: And, we can -- that'll -- that's 8 confirmed on the next page, on Front Number 9521. Those 9 times are associated with 1145. 10 Q: Okay. Let's start with 9520 and just 11 tell me what's on there and then we'll proceed. 12 A: Okay. This -- this call is received 13 at 23:27 hours and fifty-nine (59) seconds. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: The information has come through the 16 -- the telephone lines; it originated at the Veens 17 residence; went to the Sarnia 911 Centre, which is also 18 the Sarnia Police Service and then it was -- somebody 19 asked for Ambulance; they patched it through to our 20 centre. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: Once this information comes through 23 the telephone lines, we drop all our information down 24 into our template. 25 Q: All right. And so, when you say,


1 "time time-zero" is 23:27 hundred hours and forty-nine 2 (49) seconds; that's the time at which you entered the 3 receipt of the 911 operator call, or at least, 4 facilitated the call? 5 A: What happens there, this is the time- 6 zero right here for people that didn't see it. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: This time, 23:27:49 reflects this 9 time here and, and you -- you can see, there's a ten (10) 10 second difference. 11 Now, once we pick up the telephone and 12 start speaking, nothing is -- nothing takes place with 13 this dispatching at all on the monitors. As soon as we 14 hit a certain key, it -- it brings up a screen, 15 basically, and that's when the time-zero clock starts 16 ticking. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And then, as soon as we -- the 19 Ministry has a policy that we have to action this -- this 20 call, this information here within a certain time period 21 into the ambulance system; it's less than sixty (60) 22 seconds, it has to be. 23 Q: Okay. And, just for the record, the 24 time of 23:27 hundred hours is -- is more or less 25 consistent with the -- the taped telephone conversation


1 that we had just listened to -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in terms of when we heard Mr. 4 Veens calling you? All right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now, go on to the next page, 7 please, 9521. 8 A: 9521. These are the -- what's known 9 as the dispatch details. As I stated earlier, it is -- 10 these times are reflective with the previous dispatch 11 information, dispatch details -- sorry, the emergency 12 details. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: And, the time-zero is also on there, 15 right in the left-hand corner. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And, so basically, it's -- it's 18 redundant; it carries information over from the previous 19 -- previous page. 20 Q: All right. But in this stage, it 21 indicates that the ambulance unit was notified by you or 22 Mr. Knight at about 23:31; is that right? 23 A: That's -- in indicates that it is 24 23:31, but that is an incorrect time. 25 Q: All right. Do you know what the


1 correct time is now? 2 A: It would be just seconds after being 3 input, because as -- as we heard on the tape earlier, it 4 didn't take three (3) minutes to contact the ambulance 5 crew. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Dispatcher Jack Knight called 1145 or 8 1146. And 1146 actually answered for them and it only 9 took the second call for them to respond, so there's no 10 delay of three (3) minutes. 11 Q: Okay. It's a -- it was close to the 12 23:27 time marker -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and then this indicates that they 15 were en route by at least 23:32; but is that accurate? 16 A: No, that time would not -- it 17 wouldn't be reflective of the true time, either. 18 Q: All right. 19 Q: And, the -- the time -- as I said 20 earlier it -- remember, there was an asterisk up there in 21 the other dispatch details on another time? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: It should have been like that had -- 24 and the dispatcher should have changed that but in his 25 haste with everything going on, it slipped his mind


1 obviously. 2 Q: All right. So, is it fair to say 3 that this unit was notified and enroute within about a 4 minute or so of the 23:27 call? 5 A: Oh yes. Oh yeah. 6 Q: All right. And that was borne out by 7 the tape we just listened to? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And in it indicates that this call, 10 that is the call to Nauvoo residence was cancelled at 11 23:55 which is -- appears to be significantly later than 12 was is indicated on the tape? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And can you provide us with an 15 explanation again? 16 A: Similar circumstance. I keep 17 referring to how -- how taxed we were in that centre that 18 night, things were busy. Now this time on the cancelled 19 time 6th of September '95 at 23:55, that is the time that 20 it was physically cancelled off of the system in the 21 computer. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: We know -- we're well aware that I 24 spoke with Ambulance 1145 and cancelled them myself on 25 the radio prior to that.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: So, this time does not reflect the 3 true time they were cancelled. This is the time that 4 reflects when Jack Knight was physically able to cancel 5 the dispatch. 6 Q: All right. Just for the record we 7 indicated through the tape that the -- the dispatch 8 appeared to be made at about 23:29 or thereabouts. And 9 the cancellation time according to that record was at 10 approximately 23:37. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And so what would the enroute time 13 have been? 14 What time was this ambulance enroute to 15 the Nauvoo Road residence before it was cancelled? 16 A: It would have been approximately 17 23:29, approximately. 18 Q: The total -- but the total minutes on 19 -- on the road? 20 How many minutes was this ambulance on the 21 road before it was cancelled? 22 A: Approximately eight (8) to ten (10) 23 minutes. 24 Q: All right. Thank you. And if you go 25 now to 9522, the next page. It's an emergency call


1 narrative. This is with respect to the Nauvoo Road 2 dispatch. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can you tell me what information 5 or new information is on here? 6 A: Okay. This information -- I'll start 7 at the top. This address comment; this has been put in 8 by myself in the database for all of Lambton and Kent 9 County. 10 Basically we identify this range of 11 numbers, there's a range of numbers that we -- we break 12 them down with and this number sixty-eight forty (6840) 13 can be found between Brickyard Line and Burnham Line. 14 It's just a -- a reference for the 15 dispatcher to pass it onto the ambulance crew who's 16 responding so they have a better idea of where they're -- 17 where they're heading to. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Now, the -- underneath that it says, 20 "DPCI Card 27 wound". 21 DPCI is -- stands for its an acronym for 22 dispatch card -- or sorry, dispatch priority card index. 23 What that means is it's -- it's a template also within 24 the ambulance system here that we're dealing with and 25 what the dispatcher or the call-taker does is when they


1 get a caller on the line, they ask various questions. 2 And if they get a response -- actually if 3 we can go bact to font -- I'm sorry, front 9520 -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- two-thirds (2/3) of the way down 6 where the -- I'm pointing now, there's basically spots 7 for three (3) questions -- three (3) primary questions 8 that the call-taker will ask the -- the caller: Is the 9 patient unconscious, any difficulty breathing or any 10 uncontrolled bleeding? 11 And if there's a 'yes' put into any of 12 those fields, it's -- obviously it's a -- it's a high 13 priority transport and -- or high priority call and the 14 call is immediately committed by the call-taker to the 15 dispatcher. 16 And we'll go -- 17 Q: And that's recognized by Code 4, is 18 it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And then go back once again, sorry, 22 over to 9522 -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- and I can't show you on the 25 information here that we even have in our books, but


1 further into this questioning, Card Number 27, it has 2 other specific questions which are asked by the call- 3 taker to the caller. And they basically tick off boxes 4 with a yes or a no, and then everything that it is 5 highlighted, once it's committed to the system, it comes 6 up as it does here; it's an injury to the chest -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- or is -- involves a wound. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Underneath this it says, "original 11 911 details by 98761"; that is my number, which means I 12 committed this -- this -- this call, this particular call 13 to the system. And at 23:28 and zero seconds I changed 14 the address. 15 Now, our database, there's various -- 16 there's a number of townships within Lambton County -- 17 Q: I think you indicated that it came up 18 on your screen as Arcona Warwick -- 19 A: Arcona Warwick -- 20 Q: -- township. 21 A: -- township. 22 Q: So, where -- how did you change it? 23 A: In order for this address to reflect 24 our database, we just -- there's just so many townships 25 in -- in the County of Lambton, that we just had to make


1 a decision once this -- this system, this computer system 2 came into play, and we decided that we would have -- 3 sorry, I'm going back again to 9520, we would call -- 4 call all the city, town and the municipalities, Lambton; 5 it's just easier to identify. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And so -- 8 Q: So you changed it from Arcona -- 9 A: We changed it from Arcona to Warwick 10 and it records the change. Anything that's changed or 11 altered -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- is flagged. 14 Q: All right. So, you changed it to 15 Lambton is my point. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay, fine. And then over at 9523, 18 Emergency Call Narratives; this relates again to -- 19 still, to the Nauvoo Road call? 20 A: That's correct. And it's just -- 21 it's policy that anything that's input regarding this 22 call, is put in a narrative fashion and I think you would 23 -- can recall that during our tape earlier, I mentioned 24 to Jack Knight, the dispatcher, I said make sure you put 25 that into the narratives --


1 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- to reflect it. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: That's what this means. Any 5 information that you put into this system for reference, 6 we type it in. As soon as you hit the enter button and 7 commit it to the system, it's -- it's part of it, just 8 the way this shows and it also reflects the time that it 9 was entered -- 10 Q: All right. Now -- 11 A: -- 23:38:19. 12 Q: -- you've already explained the 13 difficulties with the times that are recorded here, but 14 just for clarity, the first time that's recorded, 23:38, 15 the commentary is, "someone just showed up and asked to 16 call an ambulance". 17 So, that's your -- that's when you first 18 got the call from Mr. Veens? 19 A: No, I got the call at 23:27. 20 Q: I appreciate that, but -- 21 A: But, this is the -- this -- sorry, 22 this is the time when I was physically able to enter this 23 information. 24 Q: Yes, and I think I made the 25 qualification. Leaving the times aside, I just want to--


1 A: Oh. 2 Q: -- know the sequence of events. 3 A: Sorry, okay. 4 Q: The second time entry is when you 5 were on a landline to residents and advised the -- the 6 patient had left? 7 A: On landlining and finding out whether 8 they had weapons there. 9 Q: No, that would be the third, wouldn't 10 it? 11 There are three (3) contacts. 12 I know there were two (2) calls, but there 13 were three (3) different conversations within the two (2) 14 calls. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Am I wrong? 19 A: No, you're right. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. So, the second call is 21 when you are advised that the patient had left and then 22 the third is the call back with respect to do they have 23 visible weapons, because there were conversations in 24 between the first and second call that were unrelated; is 25 that fair?


1 A: But, you see, I -- I only 2 disconnected from them once. 3 Q: I appreciate -- all right. 4 A: And I didn't -- I just had them on 5 hold and -- 6 Q: All right. Well -- 7 A: Am I not understanding something, 8 or... 9 Q: No, it's your evidence. Now, you 10 tell me, then, what was this -- what was the first 11 indication, what's the first piece of evidence relate 12 to? 13 A: The LL (phonetic) residence? 14 Q: No, notes by CACC, September 6th, at 15 23:38:19; what does that narrative relate to? 16 A: Someone had -- someone had pulled up 17 the Nauvoo address and said they require an ambulance. 18 Q: All right. Okay. And what did the 19 entry, the second entry relate to? 20 A: Just speaking with the residents once 21 again. 22 Q: And the third entry? 23 A: Speaking with the residents again. 24 And it was just customary to -- once you contact the 25 residents, you put the phone number in there that you


1 used. 2 Q: Okay. And then the fourth reference 3 relates to what? 4 A: When the -- I put in there that the 5 call was cancelled at 23:54. And it was Jack's 6 responsibility -- the dispatcher's responsibility -- to 7 physically cancel that -- that dispatch on the computer, 8 so I didn't do that, but that was just a note saying that 9 the call had been cancelled. 10 Q: And, it says, "Cancelled unit by 11 11330"; that's Mr. Knight's number, isn't it? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And, we've -- as I said, we've 14 already dealt with the time discrepancy, so I just wanted 15 to get a sequence of events here. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: All right. That's fine. And, the 18 next page, 9524 is an emergency call narrative. This a 19 further narrative relating to the Nauvoo Road call. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. 22 All right. I think it would be very 23 helpful for the Commission if we -- if you would be able 24 to identify on the map that's behind you -- and we'll put 25 it up on the screen now; I wonder if you could do that


1 please? 2 Now, first of all, this is a -- a map that 3 relates to the Ipperwash area and we've marked it as an 4 exhibit already. It marks, specifically, all of the 5 roads in the region of the -- the former Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park, Kettle Point First Nation, Forest, 7 Arkona, Thedford, and at the bottom of the screen, the 8 address on Nauvoo Road where the Veen residence actually 9 is located. 10 And, there are a number of other locations 11 there; the -- the former Army Camp gate is located, 12 perhaps you can -- there, thank you; the Park is just to 13 the north; the Northville Fire Department to the right; 14 the Thedford Fire and Ambulance Station; and down below, 15 the Arkona Fire Department; the Nauvoo Road residence; to 16 the left and up, the -- the Forest Fire Station; and 17 above that the -- the Forest Ambulance Station and the 18 town of Forest, itself. So, that's just to give you a 19 bit of the sense of the orientation. 20 I wonder if you would now, show us with 21 your pointer starting with the original dispatch of 1146 22 to the MNR parking lot and -- thank you, we've just -- 23 we've just expanded the -- or focussed in on the map. 24 A: I believe the MNR parking would be 25 just down in here.


1 Q: All right. So, you're pointing to 2 East Parkway Drive? 3 A: Right. Just off of Ipperwash Road. 4 Q: Okay. So, can -- I'm sorry, were you 5 able to -- to catch that, Mr. Emery? 6 So, what we are marking is where the 7 approximate location of the MNR parking lot was and this 8 is where you dispatched 1146 and 1145? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Could you add that information to the 11 database. 12 And, the approximate time that they 13 arrived, according to the records, was at 21:53? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And would you mark that time as well, 16 please? 17 MR. KEVIN EMERY: Can you repeat that for 18 me, please? 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Sure, the time of arrival of 1146 and 22 1145 at the MNR parking lot was 21:53, and 1146 at 21:53. 23 Okay. I'm just trying to remember, do you 24 recall the time of dispatch of that call? 25 A: Sorry, which one?


1 Q: Sorry, the dispatch to the MNR 2 parking lot was at 20:56, wasn't it -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- for 1146? Sorry, that's when you 5 notified it. Perhaps we should go with the enroute. So, 6 we -- we have registered as enroute at 2141. 7 A: Okay, great. 8 Q: And, will you put the arrival time as 9 21:53. I'm just taking this from the exhibit at -- 10 documents at 9531 -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- of Exhibit 345. Okay. Thank you. 13 The next thing I would like you to show us 14 is the location of 1145 and 1146 when they are dispatched 15 to 21 Highway and Army Camp Road. Perhaps you could 16 focus in on that location, Mr. Emery; Army Camp Road and 17 21 or the former army camp base? 18 Okay. And can you give us the approximate 19 location then of where 1145 and 1146 were dispatched to 20 by -- by the OPP if you are able -- 21 A: I -- I'm believing they were at -- 22 right in this area here. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Probably on the north side of the 25 road.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: Just surmising. I'm not exactly 3 positive. 4 Q: Appreciate that and we'll have the 5 attendants here -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- next week. But we're just trying 8 to get a general sense of it. So, if you then the units 9 numbers, 1145 and 1146 and then the enroute time -- I'm 10 sorry. 11 The enroute time for both units is 23:11 12 according to the log, the ambulance log. And the time of 13 arrival is at about 23:16 according to the ambulance log. 14 Thank you. 15 Okay. Now, are you able to tell us the -- 16 we should -- can you now als -- tell us where the other 17 units were stationed at approximately 23:27? I'm taking 18 this time arbitrarily because this is the time at which 19 you received -- first are contacted by Mr. Veens and 20 before you dispatch any of the units. 21 A: Okay. At -- at 23:27 I started 22 speaking with Mr. Veens on a Nauvoo Road call. And at 23 that time we had two (2) ambulances at Army Camp Road and 24 21 Highway. And we discussed earlier that we were going 25 to have to move other ambulances down there.


1 Q: Right. So, let's -- let's proceed 2 with that. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And perhaps we'll start with Unit 5 1147. 6 A: So, we can say that 1146 is committed 7 to transport with Nick Cotrelle. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: 1145 is assigned the call to the 10 Nauvoo Road site. And so at that time we have to decide 11 -- we have to move some other ambulances down for 12 coverage. 13 Q: All right. And just for the record, 14 the starting points if you will, of -- of the enroute or 15 the transfer of Nick Cotrelle, you've already marked at 16 Highway 21 -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- and Army Camp -- 19 A: Yes, Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 20 Q: And the dispatch point, departure 21 point if you will, for 1145 the Nauvoo Road is already 22 reflected at Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 23 A: The same one, yes. 24 Q: So, now I understand you're moving 25 ambulances in position and we'll actually track the times


1 as well that they get moved into position? 2 A: Yes, yes, we will. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Okay. What we're doing is -- so as 5 we stated earlier like you had said as well, both 6 ambulances are committed there from 21 Highway and Army 7 Camp Road. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: And so what we are doing, we have 10 contacted an ambulance at the Forest base and that is 11 1147. 12 Q: And for the record, we're referring 13 to Log 9540 and we're still in Exhibit P-345. 14 A: That ambulance was contacted at the 15 Forest station and advised to go down towards the MNR 16 area. Actually, they were instructed, I think, to go to 17 the checkpoint on Ipperwash Road. 18 Q: All right. So Mr. Emery has put on 19 the board, the Forest ambulance station so can we mark 20 that as 11 -- with Unit 1147? 21 And it appears that this ambulance was on 22 route at about 23:25. And please, Mr. Connors, correct 23 me if you disagree. 24 A: No, you're right. You're right. 25 Q: And the arrival at the MNR parking


1 lot? 2 A: No. At the checkpoint on Ipperwash 3 Road. 4 Q: Ipperwash Road and 21? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: That's where we instructed them to 8 go, anyways. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: And they arrived there at 23:35 11 hours. 12 Q: So at 23:35. Thank you. All right. 13 A: Shortly after that, we contacted the 14 second ambulance that was at the Forest Station; and that 15 is Unit Number 1505. 16 Q: Okay. So, about -- 17 A: And -- and we instructed them to head 18 down to the Ipperwash Road checkpoint area as well. 19 Q: All right. And this is number -- 20 Document Number 9555 within the same exhibit. 21 A: They were on the way at 23:34 and our 22 information indicates that they arrived at 23:46; about 23 ten (10) -- approximately ten (10) minutes after the 24 first ambulance. 25 Q: The Unit Number is 1505, and we just


1 have to slow down a little bit, Mr. Connors, so that Mr. 2 Emery -- 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: -- can -- 5 A: I forgot about that. 6 Q: Did you get the enroute time then and 7 the arrival time and the location? Okay, thank you. 8 Thank you very much. All right. Let's 9 move on to the next unit. 10 A: Okay. So, at this point we have 11 coverage reinstated. We are instructed by Sergeant 12 Cousineau not to let it fall anywhere below two (2) 13 ambulances. And we have two (2) ambulances now for 14 coverage for the area. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: In addition to those two (2) 17 ambulances that we just discussed, we have a Parkhill 18 unit which we borrowed from London dispatch. 19 Q: All right. And we're looking at 20 document number 9548 in the same exhibit. 21 And where -- where were they? 22 A: That unit was brought into the 23 intersection of 21 Highway and Northville Road. 24 Q: All right. So, could we go to 21 and 25 Northville? And the -- you know, okay -- not general


1 location there. 2 And it's Unit -- 3 A: 1249. 4 Q: -- 1249. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And do you have an arrival time for 9 that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Do you have an enroute time? 12 A: Enroute at 23:27; that's when -- 13 you'll see the Front Number 9548. I can remember seeing 14 it -- some details there in the narratives and when the 15 London dispatcher acknowledges that he will send us a 16 unit, he put it in there that they were already on their 17 way -- already enroute. 18 Q: Okay. So, they're on their way but 19 we don't actually know when he got to that -- 20 A: No, we don't, because the -- the 21 ambulance is from a different area. They may not switch 22 over to our frequency. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And if they did, they didn't 25 acknowledge that they were there, so that's why we


1 wouldn't have a record of that. 2 Q: All right. So, let's move on to unit 3 1245 and it's at Document Number 9552 in the same 4 exhibit. 5 A: This ambulance also originated from 6 the London dispatch area. It's a Strathroy unit and we 7 had asked that they attend the area of Arcona, because in 8 addition to supplying coverage for this incident, we have 9 to maintain coverage for the general population in that 10 area as well. 11 Q: All right. So, this is coming from 12 Strathroy and do you know where in Arcona they were 13 going? 14 A: It's -- Arcona isn't very large and 15 they pretty much just -- as long as they're within in 16 that -- within that area, like within a kilometre, we're 17 satisfied with that. 18 Q: All right. So, Mr. Emery, you're 19 just doing the general vicinity? 20 Okay, and that's unit 1245. Again, we 21 don't have an arrival time because you've borrowed this 22 unit from another location, but they're enroute at 23:33? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Approximately? Is that right? 2 A: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Pardon me. 3 Q: That's okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. Shall we move on then, to 8 the next unit -- 9 A: The next unit, Front Number 9557. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: That unit's identified as 1141. That 12 is a car out of Petrolia and we moved them up to the 13 Forest ambulance station and they arrived just shortly 14 after midnight at 00:09 hours. 15 Q: Okay. So, we'll just go to the 16 Forest Ambulance Station. This is Unit 1141 and it 17 arrived 09:00 hours; zero zero zero nine (0009). And 18 that would be September the 7th; perhaps you would put 19 that in? Thank you. 20 All right. And then the next unit? 21 A: The next one, Front Number for the 22 document 9560 -- nine five six zero (9560) -- that's a 23 Brigden ambulance 1238, and we moved that one over to 24 Petrolia Base, to the Petrolia Station for coverage for 25 that area and they arrived one (1) minute after midnight


1 on September the 7th. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Okay, that's -- is this 1238? 7 A: Sorry, yes, 1238. 8 Q: Unit 1238 for Petrolia Base; arrival 9 at 00:01 hours at September 7th. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Okay. All right. The next unit -- 14 now, we come back to 1145. 15 A: 1145, Front Number 9568 -- ninety- 16 five sixty-eight (9568). 1145: They were cancelled off 17 of the Nauvoo Road call and they were subsequently 18 reassigned on a Code 8 and a Priority 8 for standby 19 coverage, moved to Ravenswood. 20 Q: Okay. Let's go to Ravenswood. Do 21 you know where in Ravenswood? 22 A: Ravenswood is just a -- 23 Q: Sorry, that's a street. 24 A: -- it's like an intersection. 25 Q: It's Ravenswood and where?


1 A: 21 Highway. 2 Q: Thank you. All right. So, this is 3 now 1145 -- no, no, sorry, it's Unit 1145 -- it's okay. 4 And, they arrived at this destination at 5 23:57 hours, is that right? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: All right. Okay. So, that's the 8 unit that was called off the Nauvoo Road call? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Okay. And, finally, the -- the 1146 11 Unit, where did it end up? 12 A: 1146: After they completed their 13 detail at Strathroy Hospital -- 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: -- and they cleared that location, 16 they returned back to our area and they were moved -- 17 sorry they were moved to Ipperwash Road; that's Front 18 Number 9571. 19 Q: Yes. Thank you. 20 A: They were moved to the Ipperwash Road 21 area and they -- they arrived at 1:14 in the morning of 22 the 7th. 23 Q: Do you know where on Ipperwash Road 24 they would have been stationed at? 25 A: Just like the -- the previous


1 coverage ambulances, it indicates Ipperwash Park and I 2 believe that would say -- or the other one said, 3 "Ipperwash Road," but I believe it would have been down 4 at the checkpoint. 5 Q: Sorry, go ahead. 6 A: It would have been at the checkpoint. 7 Q: Which checkpoint? 8 A: On Ipperwash Road, the OPP 9 checkpoint. 10 Q: On 21? 11 A: 21 Highway and Ipperwash Road. 12 Q: Okay. Yeah. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: That was 1146. The time of arrival 17 is 01:14:00 hours, September 7th. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: All right. Now, we should go back to 22 the MNR parking lot, as I understand you ultimately had 23 two (2) units move back to there? 24 A: At midnight they were moved down to 25 the MNR parking lot.


1 Q: All right. So, can we go back to the 2 MNR parking lot? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Are you there? Okay. 7 So, as I understand it, Unit 1147 and Unit 8 1505 were moved to the MNR parking lot at midnight? 9 A: That's right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And 1505, yeah. Thank you. All 14 right. 15 All right. Now, does that in a nutshell 16 give you -- obviously, we haven't gone through the 17 routes. We'll have the drivers to assist us with that, 18 but the -- the -- the various locations at which the 19 ambulances under your jurisdiction were stationed during 20 that evening? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Okay. At least in or around the 23 11:30 mark with the appropriate start time? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Okay. So, as I understand it, then,


1 you had two (2) units available at the Ipperwash Road and 2 21 OPP check mark at the time that -- that the 1145 and 3 1146 were dispatched onto the Army Camp Road and 21 4 Highway? 5 A: Shortly thereafter. 6 Q: Shortly thereafter? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right, I believe we've made the -- 11 the map already an exhibit, Commissioner, but I'll just 12 note right now that we will be filing both a hard copy of 13 this map, which will reflect the various dots, if you 14 will, and -- and an electronic copy of this map which 15 will include the fields of information that Mr. Emery has 16 been inputting so that we can understand why those dots 17 are there and who put them -- put them there. All right. 18 Perhaps we'll make those A and B 19 respectively. 20 THE REGISTRAR: 349(A) and 349(B). 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-349(B): Electronic copy of North East 24 section of Lambton County Map 25 No. 1


1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: All right, thank you. I'd like to go 3 back for a moment to the Nauvoo Road dispatch with 1140 - 4 - Unit 1145. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: And what I'd like to know is, was 7 there a concern that your ambulance was going to go into 8 a gunshot wound situation without police escort? 9 A: Yes. Yes, there was. 10 Q: And did that factor in your 11 instructions in cancelling this -- this ambulance? 12 A: They probably went hand in hand, but 13 primarily the patient had left the scene and that's why 14 they were cancelled off the call. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: It was a concern about the -- that 17 there was no police in the area. We did hear there was 18 no weapons -- or there was no weapons seen, but when 19 somebody is -- presents with an injury received from 20 violence which included a -- a possible weapon or a 21 gunshot wound, that would indicate that the police 22 presence was required. 23 Q: And so had your ambulance unit 24 arrived at the -- at the 6840 Nauvoo Road residence 25 address, would you have given them any further


1 instructions with respect to whether they should approach 2 the patient or stay back? 3 A: If they were -- if we didn't have 4 information that -- that they had left the scene, they 5 would have been instructed not to proceed. They would 6 have probably been instructed to hold back, approximately 7 a kilometre, and wait for -- for police intervention. 8 Q: All right. And would you have 9 resumed -- would you have made inquiries of the OPP as to 10 their -- their progress at this point? 11 A: Certainly. 12 Q: All right. And do you say that 13 that's standard procedure? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: Now, is that in writing anywhere? 16 A: I would imagine it is somewhere. 17 Just as -- on a call of nature of that description, the 18 police are -- are definitely necessary and mandatory to 19 attend. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And it's -- it's common practice that 22 we do hold ambulances back until the police enter first. 23 Q: Okay. All right. At this time I 24 would like to play two (2) more tracks of telephone 25 conversations which commence at about 11:45 on September


1 the 6th, 1995. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we have a 6 transcript for these tracks? 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No -- hang on. We do 8 have one of the transcripts. Thank you. 9 Go to Inquiry Document Number 2000598 10 please, and it's Tab 7. And if you would proceed to page 11 85. 12 And this particular excerpt is about two 13 (2) minutes and eighteen (18) seconds long and appears to 14 have been started at about 23:41. 15 These are transcripts from the command 16 post logger, so it's a different source with respect to 17 the transcripts. 18 The -- the second track which appears to 19 be at seven (7) minutes after midnight on September the 20 7th, I don't have a transcript for. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Say that it's marked on 23 my electronic copy as being 23:45 and this is supplied by 24 the OPP. 25


1 (911 CALL PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: All right. That's the end of that 5 conversation. 6 And so what -- what happens in this 7 conversation is -- is you're advising or just confirming 8 to Sergeant Cousineau that you made the transport of Nick 9 Cotrelle to the Strathroy Hospital? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that, you're inquiring as to 12 whether or not the car with -- with Dudley George has 13 been located yet? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, you're -- you're advised that it 16 -- it has not been, at -- at least as at this time? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: All right. And then, you're also 19 confirming at this point that there are no ambulances as 20 at about 11:45 at the MNR parking lot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, that you're receiving 23 instructions from Sergeant Cousineau to send two (2) 24 ambulance units down there? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: Okay. Thank you. 2 And then, the last conversation I'm going 3 to play for you is -- is track 10; it's September the 4 7th, 1995, and it occurs at about seven (7) minutes after 5 midnight. 6 This is three (3) minutes and four (4) 7 seconds long, but we don't have a transcript. 8 9 (911 CALL PLAYED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 12 Q: All right. So, here we -- we can 13 determine that as of seven (7) minutes after midnight, 14 you had approximately six (6) units still in the area? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Two (2) were in the parking lot? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And one (1) was in Forest and it 19 would appear three (3) were in the Northville area? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And the purpose of this phone call 22 was what? 23 A: Just to make an evaluation status of 24 how many ambulances we should have up in that area. 25 Q: All right. Now did you make any


1 further Ipperwash related dispatches after midnight on 2 the 7th of September? 3 A: Ambulance calls you're saying? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And do you recall what 7 the circumstances of that call was? 8 A: That was -- I believe they were doing 9 an evacuation of the Park and there was an elderly 10 gentleman which required or who required ambulance 11 transport as well as oxygen therapy. So, he was 12 transported by ambulance. 13 Q: Okay. And you go please to Tab 14 Number 5, Exhibit P-345 and it's font -- or Front Number 15 9582. And this describes dispatch details for Unit 1146. 16 And just note first of all that this crew 17 now seems to have switched partners with 1145 and -- and 18 Mr. Gilpin and Mr. Tedball are now on this crew? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: All right. And is this the -- the 21 request for the -- assistance in evacuating the elderly 22 gentleman from the Ipperwash area? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: All right. And that occurred at 25 about 5:31 in the morning; that's the arrival time at


1 least? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And left at about 5:56 a.m. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: So, we know that during that period 6 of time at least, there was an evacuation occurring by 7 the OPP of some Ipper -- local residents in and around 8 the Park. 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And the next page, 9583, is a 11 narrative and indicates OPP are evacuating the Park and 12 there's a patient in this area -- residence that's under 13 continuous care et cetera who requires transport. 14 So, was that the -- the last -- last 15 Ipperwash -- Ipperwash requ -- was it the last dispatch 16 that was related to this incident of that evening -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- or during your shift I should say. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay, thanks. And when did you go 21 off shift on September the 7th? 22 A: My shift was supposed to end at 7:00 23 in the morning and I -- I believe I left at 8:30 in the 24 morning. 25 Q: All right. And did you have any


1 further conversations with the OPP over the course of the 2 balance of your shift? 3 A: I believe I did. I -- I don't think 4 -- if I didn't hear from them for -- for some time I 5 probably would have contacted them and find out just for 6 a status check what's going on. 7 Q: Okay. So, for a status check by and 8 large? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: All right. 11 Commissioner, when would -- I -- I can 12 probably finish this by 12:30 but what's your pleasure? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 14 to break early today because it's Thursday. But I don't 15 know -- I -- I think we should try to finish it unless 16 you're tired. This is very tedious and very difficult 17 and -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tedious? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I 20 understand that. 21 Just for you I mean. I meant for you, Ms. 22 Vella. It's difficult for you to go through this detail. 23 Would you like a break now? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't require a break 25 but the Witness, are you all right to go until 12:30 and


1 we'll finish this -- the chief off at least? 2 THE WITNESS: I'm fine. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then let's 5 continue and finish. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 8 Q: All right. During the course of the 9 evening of September the 6th, were you aware that a St. 10 John's ambulance unit was at the site of the MNR parking 11 lot with your two (2) units; that is 1145 and 1146? 12 A: No. We had no knowledge of that at 13 all. 14 Q: Okay. Would you have had any means 15 of communication into that St. John's ambulance unit? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And during the course of that 18 evening, did you become aware of the fact that a St. 19 John's Ambulance unit was transporting a person with 20 injuries arising from the Ipperwash Park incident? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Can you advise us, as best you can, 23 as to any reason as to why as a matter of routine, you 24 would not have been alerted to the fact that the St. 25 John's Ambulance had been dispatched to transport a


1 patient to the -- the hospital from that area? 2 A: We have no idea why we were not 3 contacted in regards to that. 4 Q: Now, does the Wallaceburg ambulance 5 communications centre have jurisdiction over the dispatch 6 of all ambulance units within the Ipperwash area; 7 obviously, the MOH, I'm talking about? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Ministry of Health? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. What's your understanding of 12 the difference between the emergency services provided by 13 Ministry of Health ambulance units versus St. John's 14 Ambulance units, if you know? 15 A: St. John's is basically -- well, a 16 basic first aid mobile command post, if you want to say, 17 that is generally used at a -- as a setting for cuts and 18 scrapes and bruises at a -- maybe a -- a fairground type 19 atmosphere. 20 In something like this environment, we 21 were very surprised to learn that they were even there. 22 I think I heard days later that they were there, but we 23 had no idea why they would even be included in a venture 24 as this type. 25 Q: All right. And we've heard evidence


1 that a Mr. Cecil Bernard George was, in fact, transported 2 to Strathroy Hospital, commencing at about 11:45 p.m. -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- on September the 6th. Now, would 5 you have had any Ministry of Health ambulance units on 6 site or near that location which could have responded in 7 a timely manner to transport Mr. George from the MNR 8 parking lot in or around that time period? 9 A: Yes, we would have had at least one 10 (1) and most likely two (2). 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, having had the benefit of -- of 16 ten (10) years to reflect on this matter -- 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: -- and knowing what you know now, in 19 retrospect what, what, if anything, differently would you 20 have done that evening to assist in the orderly dispatch 21 of ambulances that night? 22 A: Definitely had more staff in our 23 centre. 24 Q: More staff to do what? 25 A: To assist in all the undertaking that


1 was -- we completed during our entire shift. 2 Q: Okay. And why do you note that to 3 have been a difficulty for you? 4 A: It's -- as taxing as we were with the 5 Ipperwash incident alone, we were dealing with the day to 6 day basis -- day to day business, rather, involving Kent 7 and Lambton counties. 8 And had we had at least one (1) more 9 person, they could have -- we have -- we had four (4) 10 stations, actually, set up in that -- in that room, and 11 they could have occupied one (1) station and -- and taken 12 over the dispatching in the other County, which would 13 have reduced the work load immensely. 14 Q: Okay. And you received your initial 15 briefing, I guess, from Sergeant Reid at about 21:00 that 16 there was going to be something that may occur -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- that evening. In retrospect, how 19 would you assess the adequacy of the briefing that you 20 were provided by Sergeant Reid with at that time? 21 A: It was just very general. If -- if 22 they had an indication what was going to take place that 23 night, they certainly didn't let us know about it or we 24 weren't made aware of it prior to commencement of our 25 shift.


1 Q: Okay. And would you have done things 2 differently, again, had you had further details about the 3 particular nature of what was going to transpire? 4 A: Definitely. We would have had more 5 staff called in to our centre as well as we -- we would 6 have ensured -- you can recall at one point, I was 7 phoning around trying to find additional crew members 8 which -- and that takes a very -- that -- and that takes 9 time from the -- the important business that basically 10 was -- was let go for the time being. 11 We would have called people in earlier or 12 else had them definitely standing by at their home so we 13 wouldn't have to go through a roster and try and find 14 somebody that was willing or able to attend. 15 Q: And, that's with respect to the 16 ambulance attendants you're speaking of? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Now, would it have been 19 helpful for you, if you can comment on this, to have 20 known the details of the contingency plan that had 21 apparently been developed prior to September the 6th? 22 A: It would have been a -- a great help 23 to know what -- what they had intended on doing or what 24 their mandate was. 25 Q: All right. Thank you. Those


1 complete my questions, thank you very much, Mr. Connors, 2 and perhaps before we break for lunch, Commissioner, 3 could we canvass Counsel with respect to 4 cross-examination? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, in the 6 usual way. Does anybody wish to cross-examine Mr. 7 Connors? 8 Mr. Orkin, yes...? 9 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I may use fifteen (15) 10 minutes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Katherine, 12 are you writing this down? Mr. Orkin, fifteen (15) 13 minutes. 14 Mr. -- sorry, Ms. Esmonde...? 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Half an hour to 16 forty-five (45) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Half an hour 18 to forty-five (45) minutes. 19 Mr. Scullion...? 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Again, it will 21 depend, but it will probably be fifteen (15) minutes or 22 so. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Andrea 24 Tuck-Jackson...? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Five (5) to ten


1 (10) minutes. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 3 Roland...? 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Five (5) to ten (10) 5 minutes. 6 MR. AL O'MARRA: Around the same time, 7 five (5) to ten (10) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 9 possible that we'll get completed this afternoon. So, 10 should we take a lunch break now? We will try to 11 complete it this afternoon. Thank you very much, we'll 12 take a break now. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 15 adjourned until 1:30. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 12:12 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I 23 think Mr. Orkin is first. 24 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, thank 25 you. Over lunch we had decided not to ask any questions.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 2 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you very much. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Esmonde 4 first. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE. 7 Q: Good afternoon. 8 A: Good afternoon. 9 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde. I'm one 10 of the lawyers representing a group from Stoney Point 11 under the name of Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 12 Now there are a few areas that I -- I'm 13 not sure I'm entirely clear on and I'm going to probably 14 go through this in chronological order if that helps you. 15 A: All right. 16 Q: But first of all, your colleague Mr. 17 Knight was here yesterday -- 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: -- and I thought I'd hear him make 20 reference to a problem of a missing tape from September 21 6th, 1995. 22 Do you know what he would've been talking 23 about? 24 A: No, none whatsoever. 25 Q: And the transcript that we spent the


1 bulk of the morning listening to, that's a phone line 2 that goes into the communication centre? 3 A: There's a number of phone lines and 4 at that time, right now it's a digital recording setting 5 and back then it was a reel to reel. And each phone line 6 has a separate recording and so there's different 7 channels on the -- on the controlled -- the logger, 8 basically, that it would be transcribed onto. 9 Q: Okay. So what we heard was different 10 lines that were -- 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That's why it's all cut up sometimes 14 is because they have to splice -- not splice things into 15 it but just tape different -- different occurrences. 16 If three (3) things -- three (3) separate 17 things happen at the same time, they have to be recorded 18 individually on your CD as an example. 19 Q: Okay. But what we heard is that in 20 real time? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All the conversations that happened-- 23 A: Oh yeah. 24 Q: -- there's no breaks and missing bits 25 or anything?


1 A: No, no. It's all continuous. 2 Q: I just wanted to make sure. And I 3 understand as well, there are Ministry guidelines in 4 place with respect to time lines in which you are 5 supposed to do certain things when you receive a call? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: So once you receive a call from 91 -- 8 that's put through to you from 911 or another source -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- what are you supposed to do next? 11 A: That has to be -- remember I spoke of 12 the time zero (0) -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- that has to be -- I think it's 15 within a -- I haven't been in that business for a number 16 of years. But back then I believe it was less than sixty 17 (60) seconds, the call had to be committed to the system, 18 to the computer system and basically getting underway. 19 So within that sixty (60) seconds, we have 20 to determine where the ambulance is required and a 21 priority that is assigned to it. 22 Q: Okay. And then -- then what's the 23 next thing that happens? 24 A: And at that time the -- the call is 25 committed to the system, the dispatcher would pick it up,


1 he would observe -- he would review it and then decide 2 within another minute I believe it was, that he would 3 have to pick someone -- sorry, an ambulance that was 4 close enough to respond. Or the most appropriate 5 ambulance to assign it to and that was within sixty (60) 6 seconds. 7 Q: Okay. So if I understand you then, 8 from within two (2) minutes from when you receive the 9 call, an ambulance is supposed to be dispatched? 10 A: Right. Contacted. 11 Q: Contacted? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Okay. And is there a time line then 14 within which it should be dispatched? 15 A: And then they -- they have for an 16 emergency call, they have two (2) minutes to respond. 17 Q: Okay. So then within four (4) 18 minutes someone should have responded? 19 A: Sorry. Sorry. They have one (1) 20 minute to respond after being notified depending -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- on the priority. But a high 23 priority 24 it's -- it's less than sixty (60), within sixty (60) 25 seconds they have to be on their way.


1 Q: Okay. And a Code 4 would be high 2 priority then? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And in one of the final clips that we 5 heard this morning, I thought that I heard you giving 6 Sergeant Cousineau a -- a different number to contact you 7 at and that's -- 8 A: Right. 9 Q: -- and that was because you were 10 having some problems with phone lines? 11 A: That -- we -- we normally have them 12 call, excuse me, back then I can't remember which number 13 we had them calling in on. I think we gave him a -- an 14 800 line or number to call which would be in on an In- 15 Watts line. 16 And we were having problems with those 17 according to what I said; I don't recall that though. 18 Q: Oh. 19 A: And so what I did was I gave him a 20 direct line, which is normally reserved for the police 21 and the fire departments and we had him call in on that. 22 It's -- it's more direct, since there was a problem with 23 the phone line that he was normally using. 24 Q: Okay. But, I take it you don't 25 recall today what the problem with that phone line was?


1 A: No, no. 2 Q: Okay. Okay. Now, you told us you 3 received your initial contact from Sergeant Reid 4 around 9:00 p.m. -- 5 A: Right. 6 Q: -- September 6th, and he initially 7 asked for one (1) ambulance; he called back and asked for 8 a second one? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And, in neither case did he give you 11 anything more than a general sense of why the ambulances 12 were needed? 13 A: No. 14 Q: So, all you knew was that there was a 15 developing situation and ambulances may be needed? 16 A: Exactly. 17 Q: Okay. So, you weren't told that 18 there was a police operation that was planned? 19 A: Oh, we knew there was a police 20 operation, but they said -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- regarding the Ipperwash situation. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: But we -- we knew there was a -- a 25 police operation going on, but he didn't get into


1 specifics about that. 2 Q: Okay. Was there anything more that 3 you knew than what you've told us? 4 A: No, I don't believe so. 5 Q: Okay. So, they -- you didn't have 6 any information about what kind of injuries were 7 anticipated or possible? 8 A: Well, if you're -- if you're -- with 9 a situation like that, if you have a confrontation which 10 involves police, you're going to -- you're going to 11 consider some serious injuries regarding -- and we -- we 12 didn't know about weapons and if there was a gunshot 13 injury or if they were using baseball bats or boards or 14 rocks or whatever, but those -- those can inflict serious 15 injuries. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: And so, as far as planning ahead for 18 that we couldn't, as dispatchers, nor could the ambulance 19 crew members. 20 Q: Right. So, your -- you had two (2) 21 crews at the MNR parking lot and you've since learned 22 that there was a St. John Ambulance crew there as well. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: Okay. Now, had you known that there 25 was a St. John Ambulance crew there, would that have


1 caused you some concern? 2 A: No, not really. 3 Q: No? 4 A: It would have been business as usual, 5 but it would -- I would have been wondering why they were 6 included in that or what their role was. 7 Q: And, would you have asked some 8 questions about that? 9 A: Certainly. 10 Q: Of the OPP? 11 A: Likely, or else I would have asked my 12 partner if he knew about it -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- or I would have called my manager. 15 Q: Now, had you known that they were 16 there to provide emergency medical services, would you 17 have, perhaps, stepped in and sent an additional one of 18 your ambulances to that location? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No? 21 A: Because we were advised to have two 22 (2) units on site. 23 Q: Okay. But generally, you wouldn't 24 think it appropriate for St. John Ambulance to be 25 providing that kind of service --


1 A: Right. 2 Q: -- as was required that evening? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Now, you've told us that your -- the 5 Communications Centre was responsible for dispatching 6 ambulances. 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And you had the ultimate authority 9 over all land ambulances in your district? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And yesterday your colleague Mr. 12 Knight had told us about how important it is for a 13 dispatcher to know at all times where his ambulances are? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And if they're attending to an 16 injured person or not? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And at some point, this -- in that 19 evening, the OPP directed your ambulances to -- to -- to 20 leave the MNR parking lot? 21 A: Okay, someone directed them. 22 Q: Someone did, you -- you don't know 23 who? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And, I'm just trying to -- I'm


1 a bit confused, I think, about when you knew that had 2 happened. 3 A: I presumed it happened because they 4 showed -- we directed them to go to one (1) place and 5 then they showed up at another place. 6 Q: Okay. Perhaps you -- it would be of 7 assistance to me if we could take a look at your Tab 8, 8 which is a transcript, the transcript we went over this 9 morning? 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And, if it's possible to pinpoint in 12 this transcript where it is that you realize that they've 13 moved. 14 A: We -- we realized they moved when Mr. 15 Knight asked what their 10-20 was at the request of 16 Sergeant Reid, I believe, or Cousineau, I'm not sure 17 which one. 18 Q: Okay, so -- 19 A: And -- and at that point, they said, 20 We're getting in position, we might be transporting. 21 Q: Okay, so that's on the first page, I 22 believe? 23 A: No, it's not. I'll find it for you, 24 though. 25 Q: I -- I see about three-quarters of


1 the way down on the first page, 1146 says: 2 "That's negative, we've just got in 3 position here." 4 A: Oh, there it is. 5 Q: "Over. We could be transporting."" 6 A: Okay. That's -- that's the first 7 time we realized that they had moved. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Because it does happen sometimes, 10 Jackie, that dispatch does have control over them, 11 however, there's times when movements occur and Dispatch 12 isn't made aware. 13 Q: Okay. But in the best case scenario, 14 you always know where your ambulances are? 15 A: In a -- in a -- exactly, yeah. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: We're supposed to anyways. 18 Q: So at this point where they say, we 19 could be transporting, what's your understanding today of 20 where they were? 21 A: At that point? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Ipperwash Road -- no, I'm sorry, Army 24 Camp Road and 21 Highway. 25 Q: Okay.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, normally your crew would have 4 contacted you to tell you that they had moved? 5 A: Normally. 6 Q: And I believe yesterday you had 7 suggested that there may have been -- had been instructed 8 not to? That was your theory? 9 A: That's a possible -- 10 Q: But -- 11 A: -- possibility. 12 Q: -- you don't have any information 13 that that is, in fact, the case -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- that's just your assumption? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: In a situation like that, especially 19 the crew members that were on, they were very diligent in 20 -- in -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- letting us know where they are. 23 Some people do and some people don't. Some people just 24 tell us the bare minimum and other people just give us 25 continuous amounts of information.


1 Q: Now, if I understood you yesterday, 2 what -- one of the issues you thought may have arisen is 3 the OPP may not have wanted that information to be 4 broadcast on a scanner? 5 A: Possibly. 6 Q: Is that what you were thinking of? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Would you have expected in that 9 situation, if the OPP had asked your ambulances to go to 10 a different location that they could have contacted you 11 on a secure line? 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: To let you know? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: But they didn't do that, right? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay, and if you had known that they 18 were moving, I assume you would have taken earlier steps 19 to have other units called up? 20 A: If -- 21 Q: To replace those -- 22 A: -- we knew -- 23 Q: -- two (2)? 24 A: -- that they were -- they were 25 committed, certainly.


1 Q: Yes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And now I'd like to ask you some 6 questions about the -- the 911 call that came from the 7 Park store. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: And I believe it's in -- at your Tab 10 5, this is Exhibit P-345. 11 A: I'm sorry, what's that number? 12 Q: Tab 5. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I believe the front number is 15 9525, that's the page I'd like you to take a look at. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Now it seems to me, is this the page 21 that's referring to the 911 call from -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: This is actually one (1) of them. 25 Q: It's one (1) of them?


1 A: Right. 2 Q: Okay, I'd like to ask you some 3 questions about this one. 4 A: Sure. 5 Q: This page, and if you think there's 6 another page we should look at, then you can let me know. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: Now, the time that this came in, 9 according to this page, is that 23:27? 10 A: 23:27 and thirty-six (36) seconds. 11 Q: But this may -- is this a case where 12 that may not be the correct time? 13 A: No, that is the correct time. 14 Q: That is the correct time? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: It came in at 23:27? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay, and I see it's identified, the 19 com place is identified as Ipperwash Park store. 20 A: Yeah, that stands for a common place. 21 Yes, it's -- 22 Q: Common place? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Right, okay. And the street number 25 is 9780 Army Camp Road?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, I take it you knew that that was 3 -- from that address in your system, you knew that was 4 the Ipperwash Park store? 5 A: As it come -- when it came up like 6 that, yes. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I didn't input that. That was -- let 9 me see. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Yeah, I would have changed it, 14 because it came up as -- in the page following that, font 15 9526, in the body of the print there, it says "Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park" -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: But I had the information, it was the 19 Ipperwash Park store and so that's what I changed it from 20 the Provincial Park to the Park store. 21 Q: Okay, so when it -- when it 22 originally came up, all it said was "Ipperwash Provincial 23 Park"? 24 A: Yes, with the address, of course. 25 Q: With the address, and --


1 A: Oh, sorry. I just realized now it 2 says -- above that it says "Ipperwash Park store". 3 Q: Right, okay. I was -- 4 A: All right, I didn't see that. 5 Q: You didn't see it at the time. 6 A: Just right now I didn't. 7 Q: Okay. I'm -- at the time, though, 8 that you received this call you knew then that it was the 9 Ipperwash Park store? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And did you have an 12 understanding of where that was? 13 A: Very -- 14 Q: Geographically? 15 A: -- very basic and -- geographically? 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: I wasn't very familiar with that 18 area. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: So I did my best to get an idea where 21 it was. 22 Q: And -- would there have been a map 23 you could have consulted that would have told you that 24 this was near the intersection of Army Camp Road and East 25 Parkway Drive?


1 A: No, not really. 2 Q: Did you understand that's where it 3 was? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I could've -- there was -- there were 7 maps that were available to us in -- in binders. But due 8 to the time constrictions I didn't -- I wasn't able to 9 get it out and have a closer view of -- a blowup of the 10 area. 11 We did have a huge map. It's probably 12 near the size of this but it doesn't -- it's not nearly 13 as detailed as you're referring to. 14 Q: Okay. And if you can go back to the 15 first page I've referred you to, 9525? It -- it appears 16 to have been assigned a Code 4? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And is that something that would have 19 happened automatically, or you would give it that code? 20 A: I put that priority in there. 21 Q: Okay. And that was because you had 22 information that there were two (2) -- two (2) gunshot 23 victims at that location? 24 A: We -- we had information that 25 somebody had called in and at that time the 911 operator


1 in Sarnia -- 911 Centre rather, said that they had hung 2 up. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: Now in order to have a record of that 5 call rather than just not producing anything in the 6 dispatch system, we -- we do produce this call and if we 7 don't action it, we just cancelled it off. 8 But it still has to go through the system 9 to indicate that we -- we did recognize there was 10 something there. 11 Q: Okay. But it was assigned a Code 4 12 because you had information that there were two (2) 13 people shot who were calling 911? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now it appears that no ambulance was 16 sent to respond to this call? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And why is that? 19 A: Because they were basically under the 20 control -- when we're in a situation as -- as we were, 21 when ambulances are at a checkpoint, we just can't -- I 22 couldn't get on the radio and just randomly direct them 23 to go to the Ipperwash Park store. 24 Just due to the -- how volatile the 25 situation was and we would have to go -- the first thing


1 I did was went through and spoke to Sergeant Cousineau. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: And let him know this. Because if we 4 had to go somewhere else in that vicinity, we would have 5 to be -- the ambulance would be directed by the OPP to 6 that location. 7 They wouldn't be able to go independently. 8 Q: Right, they would need the OPP to 9 escort them to that location? 10 A: Right. Right. 11 Q: Now I take it from the transcript on 12 the call we heard this morning, you -- you did call 13 Sergeant Cousineau, you advised him. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And apparently you're the person who 16 gave him that information. He had -- he had no knowledge 17 of -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- casualties prior to that? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: It doesn't appear as though he gave 22 you any instructions about answering that call? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And you didn't ask him about 25 providing an escort to go to that location?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay, and why is that? 3 A: Because there was -- when we tried 4 ringing it back and they had already said at one point 5 during the conversation, somebody on a telephone line 6 even told an operator, I can't remember whether it was a 7 Bell operator or a 911 operator, not to send the police 8 or I know -- you're thinking -- I'm thinking ambulance 9 but it wasn't type written in there. 10 We were told that and if we don't -- same 11 -- same as the Veens' residence; if we don't have a 12 patient to go to, we generally don't go. And we know 13 there was somebody there, but in order to get specifics 14 we would need to speak with them due to the nature of the 15 -- the whole situation down there involving the police, 16 the Park occupants, as well as the ambulance crews. 17 Nobody really knew where to be directed 18 to. The Park store is where it originated but by the 19 time we figured out exactly where it was, that was -- I 20 believe it's considerably -- that's over on Army Camp 21 Road. And at this time we were supposed to be on 22 Ipperwash Road. 23 Q: Okay. Let me back you up and I'll 24 have -- I understand you made reference to somebody 25 saying they didn't want the police.


1 A: Right. 2 Q: And I understand that was a 3 completely separate call that I'll ask you about in a few 4 minutes. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: The first call that you had, all the 7 information that you had was from the 911 operator in 8 Sarnia who told you that there were two (2) people shot 9 and they wanted an ambulance and you knew they were at 10 the Park store, right? 11 A: Right, right. 12 Q: And you called Sergeant Cousineau. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: There was no discussion about how you 15 would get there and you understood that they -- the OPP 16 were in fact confused about where that address actually 17 was? 18 A: Did you say weren't confused? 19 Q: They were confused. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: That's correct? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And you didn't assist them by telling 24 them where that was? 25 A: I did the best I could and I know


1 that I did hesitate on there. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: But understand we had so many things 4 going on. I'm not using that as an excuse -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- but that was one (1) of the things 7 that I just didn't get to. 8 Q: Okay. And, it appears from the 9 transcript that one (1) of the units later told you that 10 Sergeant Cousineau did want the units to respond to that 11 phone call; do you recall that in the transcript? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. If you could -- I'm going to 14 turn you now to -- back to Tab 8, the transcript, at page 15 7. 16 A: Okay, I don't have page numbers. Oh, 17 7 -- page 7 of this? 18 Q: Page -- page 7, there should be some 19 small numbers down at the bottom. 20 A: Oh, there, okay. 21 Q: Okay? 22 A: I didn't have the first one, okay. 23 Q: And then, there's -- near the top, 24 there's an entry for M. Gilpin; that's Mac Gilpin? 25 A: Yes, that's right.


1 Q: And, he says, 2 "Yeah, that cruiser or that Cousineau 3 guy came over to see us, he wanted us 4 to respond to that residence that you 5 had on Army Camp Road, 9780." 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And then, you say: 8 "Yeah, yeah, M. Gilpin. There were two 9 (2) injuries there; Geoff, hang on; 10 Mac, hang on." 11 And then, it appears you go to answer 12 another call? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And, it appears -- it appears that no 15 action was ever taken, then. You had information that 16 Sergeant Cousineau wanted ambulances to respond to that 17 address; no action was ever taken to respond to that 18 call? 19 A: Was that...no, sorry. See, at the 20 time, I remember in my Incident Report on Tab 3 -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- I indicated that we didn't respond 23 for a few reasons: 1) if the OPP -- 24 Q: Well, perhaps we should turn to that 25 document if people want to take a look at it and follow.


1 A: Sure. 2 Q: You're referring to the document at 3 Tab 3, which is at Volume 14 Document Number 5000214? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And, it's an Incident Report? 6 A: It's front number 5002676. And, 7 actually 2677's what I'm referring to. 8 Q: Okay, I'm advised this is also part 9 of P-345, so it's already an exhibit. So, you're looking 10 at the page with the number 2657 at the top? 11 A: 2677. 12 Q: 2677? Oh, at the font number. 13 A: Sorry, yes. 14 Q: Front number. Okay? 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: So, this was an Incident Report that 17 you prepared? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And, when was it prepared? 20 A: It was prepared -- I'll just go back 21 to the first of it, the 22nd of September. 22 Q: Okay. And, where do you get that -- 23 that from? 24 A: Oh, sorry, that's on front number -- 25 the last four (4) digits 2676.


1 Q: Okay. 2 A: And -- and the very -- it says -- you 3 see the address 9780 Army Camp Road, Lambton? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Just underneath that, it says, 6 "entered by 98761," that's my number and directly under 7 that is the report date. 8 Q: Right, twenty (20) -- okay, I see it. 9 A: Okay. Now, the following page in the 10 second paragraph, it's front number 2677, the last four 11 (4) digits. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: Is it all right if I read that? 14 Q: Certainly, yes. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: I'd like to ask you some questions 17 about it, so go ahead. 18 A: Okay. 19 "At the time, I made a decision not to 20 action this call for a couple reasons. 21 The commonplace of this call was for 22 the Ipperwash Park store, which is only 23 a short distance from where the first 24 two (2) ambulances were positioned and 25 subsequently committed onto emergency


1 calls. I had presumed the call at 9780 2 Army Camp Road was to be a duplicate. 3 The Ipperwash Park store (where the 4 call originated) happened to be inside 5 the Ipperwash Park. Due to the report 6 of gunfire within the immediate area, I 7 decided to contact the Command Post 8 first, then await direction from the 9 police." 10 Q: Okay. It goes on? 11 A: I don't know if it's -- oh, okay. 12 "Sergeant Cousineau, whom I was 13 communicating with at this time, stated 14 they had no -- they had not received -- 15 they had received no reports of any 16 casualties, however, I believed it was 17 not practical or..." 18 Q: Sensible? 19 A: "...sensible [sure], at the time to 20 notify a unit because they would not be 21 able to respond into the immediate area 22 with the police where the shots had 23 been exchanged. 24 I had already been advised to have 25 ambulances not proceed any further by


1 Sergeant Reid. 2 Oh, that was at least on Ipperwash Road. 3 "It was my understanding that when the 4 ambulances involved in .. " 5 I'm not sure what that is. 6 " Situations such as this, the injured 7 as brought to the medical crew for 8 treatment then transported out." 9 Q: Okay. So, this was your explanation 10 for not actioning that call? 11 A: Certainly, especially with the 12 location where it is. 13 Q: Okay. I'd like to ask you a few 14 questions, then, about -- 15 A: Sure. 16 Q: -- of clarification for that 17 explanation. 18 A: Sure. 19 Q: Now, we'll start at the top and we'll 20 go through. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: So, you say the common place of the 23 call was the Ipperwash Park store which was only a short 24 distance away? 25 A: Right.


1 Q: Now you understood that your 2 ambulances were at the intersection of Army Camp Road and 3 Highway 21? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: So in your view, that's a short 6 distance from the Park store? 7 A: I'm not sure of the geographical area 8 but it's -- it's not actually -- it's not a quick -- it's 9 not from here to the door, sort of thing. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: Driving distance, very short driving 12 distance per se. 13 Q: Okay. So you felt that was a good 14 location to -- to wait until they perhaps could get an 15 escort to the Park store; is that what you meant or...? 16 A: We just wouldn't proceed down without 17 being basically invited by the police or escorted. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: That's why I -- that's one reason why 20 I spoke with the OPP and advised them of that. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: And they would know the area, they 23 would know the police that were set up, their situation. 24 And if they did want us to proceed down that location, I 25 think they would have advised us.


1 Q: Okay, well it appears that they did 2 advise, at least the crew from 1146, that they wanted to 3 proceed -- they wanted an ambulance to answer that call. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: But, then -- but it doesn't seem to 6 have gone any further than that? 7 A: No, that's right. 8 Q: So when you received that information 9 from your crew in 1146 -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- should you not have contacted the 12 OPP to make arrangements to have an escort to go there? 13 A: I probably should have. 14 Q: Okay. Now you -- 15 A: I probably could have, sure. 16 Q: Okay. You made reference then, to 17 your presumption that it was a duplicate call and I'm not 18 sure exactly what that means. 19 A: That happens frequently. As an 20 example, if you get -- you get a car accident in an area 21 where there's a number of people, you may get upwards of 22 six (6) or eight (8) different calls on it. 23 And, coincidentally, it did come in around 24 the same time as these other two (2) ambulances, the 25 incident they were involved in.


1 Q: I see. 2 A: And just in my experience, you put 3 two (2) and two (2) together and it's -- and it is 4 possible it could have been related. 5 Q: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And you make reference to an order 10 not to have your ambulance -- ambulances proceed any 11 further on Ipperwash Road? 12 A: Steve -- Sergeant Reid said that at 13 one point, don't have them go any further. 14 Prior to us realizing that they had gone 15 to Army Camp Road and 21 Highway, that's why -- that's 16 when he called in and said, are your ambulances moving? 17 And Mr. Knight spoke with one (1) of those 18 ambulances and that's when we learned that they may be 19 transporting because they were in position. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: And I'm just wondering maybe Sergeant 22 Reid wasn't aware that they -- they actually had been 23 moved. 24 Q: Okay. So, at some point Sergeant 25 Reid had -- had told you not to have them go any further


1 down that road? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And -- and you would, of course, 4 follow such an order of the OPP -- 5 A: Certainly. 6 Q: But if they tell you a place is not 7 safe then -- 8 A: They didn't say -- 9 Q: -- that's the direction that you 10 follow? 11 A: They didn't say it wasn't safe -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- but they -- if they said don't go 14 down, there's -- there's obviously a reason for that. 15 Q: Right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Okay, now you also received a second 20 -- you also received information about a second phone 21 call that was from a woman -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- who had called the Operator -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the Operator had gotten in touch


1 with you? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And you can take it from me that 4 we've -- we've learned that that woman was Marcia Simon. 5 I don't think that's controversial. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: Now, she was asking for an ambulance 8 because there had been a -- a shooting and the police 9 were the ones doing the shooting; you recall that? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: And she -- as you had already 12 mentioned, she specified that she didn't want the police 13 to be contacted? 14 A: I do remember -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- that, yes. 17 Q: Now, you didn't take any action on 18 this call either? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And can you tell me why? 21 A: Well, it's pretty much the same 22 thing. If -- if -- number 1, they didn't want the police 23 to be contacted, we're not going to -- I'm not going 24 abandon them for that reason alone but I would've 25 presumed it was a duplicate call and we just simply can't


1 -- I -- I updated Sergeant Cousineau on that as well, so, 2 he had the information. 3 And we just can't independently decide 4 that we're going to go down to wherever this phone number 5 originated. 6 We could've collectively discussed it and 7 maybe -- maybe action something but I didn't do it, no. 8 And he didn't suggest to go down either I guess. 9 Q: Did you know where that call 10 originated from? 11 A: Without -- no, I don't right now. 12 Q: Okay. And it wasn't -- a report 13 wasn't created in your -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- system as it was for the other 16 call? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And is there a reason why you didn't 19 create a report for that phone call? 20 A: Probably just -- it -- it slipped my 21 mind, we were busy and there was -- there was no address 22 attached to that. 23 Q: Okay. So, you had a phone number? 24 A: Yes, nine eight (9-8) something. 25 Q: Right. And could you have gotten an


1 address from that? 2 A: Probably through Bell Canada in some 3 way. 4 Q: Okay. So, had you had more staff in 5 -- in your centre which is there something you would have 6 actioned? 7 A: Possibly. 8 Q: You would have located the address? 9 A: Possibly. 10 Q: And made some arrangements to try and 11 get an ambulance there? 12 A: Made some mention that there may have 13 been some other parties down in that location. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: And not -- this is not passing the 16 buck by any means. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: But, just coordinating everyone else, 19 letting everybody know what the other information was. 20 And in a situation like that, it's the police that are in 21 control of that scene and so ultimately they decide where 22 we're going to go. 23 Q: So, by the time you received the call 24 from the Veen residence -- 25 A: Okay.


1 Q: -- you had had a 911 call from the 2 Park store with respect to two (2) -- two (2) persons 3 shot? 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: You had information about an 6 individual who had been shot who was at the Army Camp at 7 Army Camp Road and Highway 21? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And you had a phone call from a woman 10 about somebody who had been shot; I don't think it says 11 how many -- how many people? 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just -- just for 13 clarification, if you're referring -- if you're referring 14 to Marcia Simon, I think it's clear that the Witness did 15 not speak to Marcia Simon, he spoke to a 911 operator. 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: No, I'm just trying 17 to establish what information he had. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 I think you made that clear but if you didn't... 20 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE. 23 Q: You had information that a woman had 24 called about a police shooting? 25 A: Hmm hmm.


1 Q: And then you have a call from the 2 Veen residence about one (1) person who's shot? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And at that time, I understand, 5 information is coming in very quickly almost all at the 6 same time, but you would have no way of knowing whether 7 those are all referring to -- whether those are duplicate 8 calls or not? 9 A: Or whether they're related; no, I 10 don't, no. 11 Q: Now -- so, moving on specifically to 12 the call from the Veens' residence. Now Ms. Vella and I 13 had an opportunity during the lunch break just to review 14 the tape to be more specific about the timing. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And you can take it from me and if 17 you want, we can play the tape again if you're not sure, 18 but it appears as though you received the call from the 19 Veen residence -- just one moment's indulgence while I 20 sort through my papers and find that transcript. 21 This starts at page 8, but according to 22 the tape, it's twenty (20) minutes and approximately 23 twenty (20) seconds into the tape that you received the 24 phone call -- 25 A: Right.


1 Q: -- from the Veens' residence. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And it's my understanding, and you 4 can correct me if I'm wrong that it's at page 9 where 5 Jack Knight says, "Code 4, Code 4 at 6480 Nauvoo Road"; 6 that's where the ambulance is dispatched? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: That's right? Okay. And that takes 9 place at twenty-three (23) minutes and eight (8) seconds 10 into the tape. So, it appears as though there's almost 11 three (3) minutes, in fact, between the time that the 12 call is received initially and the time at which an 13 ambulance is dispatched. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: And I'm just -- we heard from Mr. 16 Knight yesterday and he was trying to explain this three 17 (3) minute period. I'm not sure if you were here to hear 18 that evidence. 19 A: No, no. 20 Q: And he had said that he tried to 21 reach the -- the units, the 1145 and 1146, but 22 wasn't able to because they weren't in their ambulances 23 at the time he tried to contact them. 24 A: All right. 25 Q: And, do you have -- do you have any


1 knowledge of that? You were there. 2 A: I don't remember a significant delay 3 in contacting them. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: And, in listening to the tape that 6 you listened to, if there's a three (3) minute delay and 7 you're trying -- and you're trying to call somebody, 8 you're going to call them more than twice in three (3) 9 minutes. And we only -- we spoke -- we called them 10 twice and they responded; I believe it was twice, maybe 11 it was only once. 12 But, I honestly didn't realize there was a 13 significant delay of -- of that long in getting a hold of 14 them. 15 Q: Okay. Can you explain why it 16 would have taken three (3) minutes? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just, in fairness to 18 the Witness, it didn't take three (3) minutes to contact 19 the ambulance according to what she's just indicated. 20 The -- the call was initiated by Mr. Veens at the outset 21 of that three (3) minute period; the dispatch, of course, 22 happen -- couldn't happen until that call was completed, 23 And I think that Mr. Connors just 24 indicated by my calculation that from the point of 25 committing the call to the point of ensuring that an


1 ambulance was enroute was about a five (5) minute point 2 in time, so I don't think it's accurate to indicate there 3 was a three (3) minute delay because we're not using the 4 right start point. I'm not making myself clear, 5 obviously. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 7 what you mean, but anyway, perhaps -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well -- 9 THE WITNESS: The times are what -- 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- first of all, the 11 call has to be taken before you can start the clock 12 running. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The call has 14 to be completed; it's not when the call starts. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Or, at least the 16 information has to be gathered -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- before the -- the 19 information can be patched over to and dispatched, is 20 what I'm saying. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 22 So, we don't know -- 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 25 Q: Well, can -- can you clarify that for


1 me? Is it -- when does the clock running, when -- when 2 the call is received at the beginning or when the call -- 3 when is -- when does the clock start running? 4 A: As soon as it's committed to the 5 system. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: As soon as the call, itself, is 8 physically -- just so everybody understands, as soon as 9 you hit the enter button, that's when the clock starts. 10 Q: Okay. That's when the Ministry of 11 Health Guidelines start running? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: That you explained to me at the 14 beginning? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Okay. And, at what -- at what point 17 is the call committed? 18 A: The call is committed to the system, 19 like I said, as soon as I hit the enter button. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: As soon as I determine -- okay, maybe 22 I'm not understanding something, but as soon as I 23 determine -- 24 Q: I think I'm not understanding. 25 A: -- what the nature of the -- the


1 emergency is -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- and where it's required, as soon - 4 - at that point, the clock starts running because the 5 dispatcher knows and that information will be conveyed to 6 the ambulance crew. 7 Q: Okay. So, when you have an address 8 and you have an idea of the nature of the injury? 9 A: Right. You can simply do it just 10 with the -- an address, because if -- we get many calls 11 that we respond to where nobody knows what's going on. 12 Q: Okay. So -- and you had an address 13 from the beginning? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: That's the first thing he told you? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: So, would you have committed the call 18 right then or would you have waited until you had 19 completed the call? 20 A: No, I can tell you right now. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I'll be just two (2) seconds. If you 23 go down to -- on front 9520. 24 Q: So, you're back at Tab 5? 25 A: Yeah, sorry.


1 Q: P-345, I believe? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: Okay. On the left-hand side it 7 starts with, concession, short form for county, street, 8 apartment. 9 See those? 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Go down to, time-zero. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: That -- I explained this a while -- 14 maybe yesterday, that as soon as we hit a key and bring 15 up this template -- so we know there's -- there's -- 16 there's someone that needs an ambulance and so, what we 17 do is, as soon as we hit this one (1) key, it brings up 18 this template and then we start filling in the blanks and 19 that's when that clock starts running; time-zero. 20 So, that one, and then you compare that 21 one to the time in the top right-hand corner, at 22 23:27:59, there's only a ten (10) second difference 23 there. So, basically, within ten (10) seconds the call 24 was committed to the system. 25 Q: I see. So, you receive the call,


1 you're speaking with him and that's at 23:27:49? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Now, I had -- I'm wanting to ask you 4 some questions about what Mr. Knight had told us 5 yesterday, that he had tried to contact his units and 6 wasn't able to reach them initially. 7 And I -- I mean, I don't that see in the 8 transcript, I don't see that occurring here. I'm 9 wondering if there is another line that he may have been 10 doing that on, or -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- on radio -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- dispatch -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- or -- no? 17 A: Not at all. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: It is very possible that, in order to 20 -- remember I said you physically have to go through a 21 couple of different procedures in order to have the 22 ambulance -- to show the ambulance that has been notified 23 on this ambulance system, and it's possible that he was 24 delayed in doing that. 25 Because that's a -- that's a delay that I


1 just -- according to the transcript that we listened to, 2 I can't see that happening. 3 Q: You can't see what happening? 4 A: I can't see the delay of three (3) 5 minutes and four (4) seconds. 6 Q: Okay. Well, if you want, we can play 7 the tape. We -- we looked at the times over the 8 lunchbreak and I can assure you that there is almost 9 three (3) minutes between when the time is -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- the time -- the call is received-- 12 A: No, we don't need to do that. 13 Q: Okay. And you can't explain why it 14 would have taken that period of time? 15 A: No. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, the -- 20 A: See, what I'm saying is, I only heard 21 Jack Knight call the ambulance a few times. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: And I just don't understand -- I -- I 24 -- I'm not disputing it, but I just don't understand why 25 -- see, if -- I just don't understand why it would take


1 three (3) minutes. 2 Q: Because it normally wouldn't take 3 that long? 4 A: No. 5 Q: What normal -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, sir. I -- I 7 -- this is a very difficult area to be cross-examining 8 on, and --- and -- because there's a lot of inaccuracies 9 in the times, but if the call was rendered at -- was 10 committed at 23:27 and according to the transcript, the 11 realtime transcript, the dispatch went out at -- at 12 twenty-nine (29) something, which is about two (2) 13 minutes and that may be why Mr. Connors is saying, I 14 didn't hear that three (3) minute delay in the 15 transcript. 16 And so to persist and say, well take it 17 from me it's three (3) minutes, I think, may not fairly 18 put that piece of evidence to the Witness. 19 It could well have been more like two (2) 20 minutes, if we take his time-zero. 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, what I've told 22 this Witness is that, from the time the call is received 23 until that call goes out, it's almost three (3) minutes. 24 And he said he can't understand why it 25 would have taken that long. I don't think there's any


1 confusion about that, and I don't think I'm being 2 misleading here. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. I just want to let 4 you know -- 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: -- something that I -- just come into 9 my mind, too. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: The recording, the transcript that 12 you -- and you listened to over the lunch period, you 13 have to understand that this timeframe -- this time 14 source when the call came -- was committed to the system 15 at 23:27:59, is a separate time source than the logger 16 tapes. 17 We try to synchronize them both, and that 18 is usually done at midnight. 19 Now, and there is times when they are out, 20 they're not -- they're not together and we make every 21 possible effort to have them synchronized and they 22 automatically -- not automatically but they just -- they 23 don't always match up. 24 Q: Okay. You do understand, though, 25 when I'm putting these times to you, I'm not referring to


1 the clock, I'm referring to the realtime on the tape. 2 A: Okay, so you're not even -- 3 Q: I'm not even looking -- 4 A: -- you're not even looking at that? 5 Q: -- at that. Do you understand that? 6 A: Oh, I do now, yeah. I was -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- getting mixed up then. 9 Q: Does that change your answers in any 10 way? 11 A: Nope. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, I'm not sure if you'd know the 17 answer to this or not, but do you have any idea of how 18 long it would take an ambulance at Code 4 to go from the 19 intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road and the 20 Veens' residence? 21 A: No. No idea. 22 Q: You have no idea? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You have never done that yourself? 25 A: No.


1 Q: Now -- and you told us earlier this 2 morning that one of the reasons for cancelling the call 3 when you did, was because you didn't want to send the 4 ambulance without police protection? 5 A: Hmm hmm... 6 Q: Is that -- did I get that right? 7 A: It might have been a -- a concern, 8 but the primary reason was because there was no patient 9 there anymore. 10 Q: Right. I thought I'd understood you 11 to testify earlier that there were -- there were two (2) 12 reasons at the same time, one (1) of which was the 13 patient wasn't there and the other was your concern about 14 their being no police protection or police escort. 15 A: Well, if it was a -- if that was the 16 primary reason for not going, I would have advised the 17 crew not even to make an attempt to go any further in the 18 event this other car was doubling back for their own 19 safety. 20 Q: Right. But, I'd like to ask you 21 about the lack of police escort though. Now, you had 22 notified the OPP of the call -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: -- and you had expected that they 25 would send a cruiser?


1 A: I would have expected that, yeah. 2 Q: Okay. But, you didn't -- you weren't 3 sure? 4 A: Well just knowing that -- 5 Q: I'm just confused by your answer 6 because from what I understood, you thought that there 7 was an OPP escort that was going -- that the OPP was 8 going to that location. 9 A: I didn't -- 10 Q: Did I get you wrong? 11 A: No, I didn't expect the ambulance to 12 be escorted. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I -- I expected that the police -- I 15 expected the police to be on scene prior to the ambulance 16 arrival. 17 Q: Okay. And you had information that 18 they weren't there? 19 A: That they were not there; yes. 20 Q: So, you think it was -- you would 21 have expected them to be there and they were not there. 22 A: Yes. Don't forget that's -- that's 23 way out in the County. They just can't -- they aren't 24 sitting out throughout the County waiting for -- for 25 these things to develop.


1 They would have had to got their -- their 2 members and made -- made arrangements as well. 3 Q: Okay. And you've explained to us as 4 well that you couldn't send your crews out looking for a 5 white car with a flat tire? 6 A: Exactly. 7 Q: Now, did you -- you knew that they 8 were probably going to a hospital. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And Strathroy would have been the 11 closest? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you provided this information -- 14 you provided information about the car and the flat tire 15 to the OPP? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And would have expected them to be 18 looking for that car? 19 A: Possibly, but that's not my decision. 20 Q: Okay. I believe that you had 21 testified that you -- you thought if they would had 22 spotted that car they could have contacted you? 23 A: I would -- yeah, I would expect that. 24 Q: Okay. But, you never received any 25 call to either intercept the white car or to provide


1 assistance? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. You'd be pleased to know, 4 those are all my questions, sir. Thank you very much. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 You're on, Mr. Scullion. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Thank you, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 15 Q: Mr. Connors, my name is Kevin 16 Scullion. I'm Co-Counsel for the Residents of 17 Aazhoodena; it's also known as Stoney Point. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And I can tell you at the outset, I'm 20 not critical of your actions on the evening, we're simply 21 trying to understand how they came to be and how 22 decisions were made. 23 And what I would like to do is take you 24 back with a hypothetical which is, assume that we're on 25 an ordinary evening where you're responsible for the


1 dispatch of ambulances to the area that we have up on the 2 screen. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And that the occurrence at Ipperwash 5 is not actually occurring -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- it's simply a normal evening. If 8 you had had the same call from the residents on Nauvoo 9 Road, what would the response be from your end? 10 How would you take care of that? 11 A: We would have -- we consult a map and 12 determine geographically and sometimes it's just you're 13 measuring to see who would be closest. 14 Q: All right. So, you take out a map; 15 would it be very similar to the one we're looking at 16 here? 17 A: Quite similar, yeah. 18 Q: All right. And if you're looking at 19 that map and we have a number of locations mapped out of 20 ambulance stations, fire stations and police stations -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- taking a look at that map, how 23 would you respond to the call from Nauvoo Road in an 24 ordinary circumstance? 25 A: I can't see that one very well, I'm


1 going to look at this map. 2 Q: If you refer to the one behind you I 3 believe it's the same as what we have up on the screen. 4 A: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 It would look like the Thedford ambulance 9 would be the closer unit. 10 Q: It would be closer -- 11 A: From the Thedford station, sorry. 12 Q: That would be the closest station or 13 unit to the location on Nauvoo Road? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then would I be correct in saying 16 that the next closest location would be the Forest 17 ambulance? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes, it's -- it's pretty much half 22 way, this -- without really get down and measuring, but I 23 think by the looks of it, Thedford would have a more 24 direct route and that's something we have to consider as 25 well.


1 Q: Okay. And that's a consideration 2 that you have -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- and you take a look at your map 5 and then you dispatch the Code 4, which would have arisen 6 from a call like this -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- and expect it, assuming that your 9 ambulance from Thedford wasn't on another call -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- and your cue that you'd mentioned 12 that you have of them onscreen, would have let you know 13 if that was the case, if they were somewhere else -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- and, that ambulance would have 16 responded to the area on Nauvoo Road -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- the Code 4? 19 And, that would be with the lights on and 20 would it involve sirens? 21 A: If necessary, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Now, the fact that the call 23 came in and it reflected a gunshot wound, you'd indicated 24 earlier that if there's any indication of violence you 25 might call for police escort?


1 A: Not police escort, police to attend, 2 as well. 3 Q: Okay. If you'd had that same call on 4 an ordinary evening and there was an indication that it 5 was a gunshot wound, would that necessitate a call to the 6 police for them to attend on the scene as well? 7 A: Most definitely. 8 Q: All right. And, what station would 9 you have called for that assistance from the police; 10 would that be Forest or is there another location closer? 11 A: No, we -- we have a -- there's a 12 central number and, actually, it was -- at that time, I 13 believe they were dispatched out of Chatham. 14 Q: All right. So, you -- 15 A: That's -- that's where the 16 Communication Centre and that's who we usually contact 17 when we need OPP assistance. 18 Q: Okay. So, on a usual evening, you 19 would call the Central Dispatch if you're looking for OPP 20 assistance -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: -- and they would make the decision 23 as to who would be best to help you out in a situation 24 and they'd contact that car or station? 25 A: They have -- they have control over


1 their units and we have control of ours. 2 Q: Right. So, it's simply a 3 notification from you to the Central Dispatch and then 4 the OPP's on their own to send the unit that needs to be 5 there? 6 A: Well, they -- and normally in a 7 situation like that, they advise us to hold back until 8 they're in position. 9 Q: Right. But, it would be up to them 10 to send a unit to assist your ambulance in the situation? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: All right. And in an ordinary 13 evening if you'd gotten the same kind of call from the 14 Ipperwash Park store, from the pay phone there, what 15 would have been your typical response to that type of 16 call? 17 A: We would have notified the ambulance 18 to respond and notified a -- the OPP as well. 19 Q: Because there's an indication or a 20 possibility that there's violence involved? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And, taking a look at our 23 map, or the map behind you there, if you're looking at 24 the former Ipperwash Provincial Park area, would it be 25 the Forest ambulance that would be called, the Thedford


1 ambulance, or is there one even closer than that? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: I believe it would have been Forest 6 that would have attended? 7 Q: Okay. You would have done the same 8 sort of measurement and determined Forest is the closest; 9 you'd call them. As long as that unit or backup unit 10 that's at Forest isn't otherwise occupied, they would 11 respond? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: No, I think after measuring, I think 16 Thedford would have been the more appropriate response. 17 Q: Okay. So, Thedford would still be 18 closer and then, presumably, Forest would be the backup 19 location -- 20 A: I believe that, yes. 21 Q: All right. Now, when you reported 22 for duty on September the 6th, this was an ordinary 23 situation for you, there was no indication that anything 24 out of the ordinary was happening as of the time that you 25 started your shift?


1 A: Right. 2 Q: And, as of about nine o'clock, you 3 got a call from the OPP and Sergeant Reid -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- called you and said that tonight 6 they needed, and it's my words, second two (2) ambulances 7 and they needed to be in the MNR parking lot? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: When you receive that request do you 10 then call two (2) more crews to be available? 11 A: No. 12 Q: So, you just move two (2) to the MNR 13 parking lot that would otherwise be in surrounding 14 locations? 15 A: They -- we would move them, however, 16 it's standard practise that unless they're committed on a 17 call, we don't replace them. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know where those units 19 came from to go to that MNR parking lot? 20 A: The initial two (2) units? 21 Q: The initial two (2). 22 A: They came from Forest. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: The Forest Station. 25 Q: So, Forest had no ambulances at that


1 location, the two (2) were in the MNR parking lot? 2 A: Forest had two (2) units left at the 3 Forest station, after the first two (2) were requested. 4 Q: All right, so there's four (4) 5 usually at Forest, or there were four (4) that night -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- at Forest. Two (2) were in the 8 MNR parking lot at the request of the OPP? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And if I understood your evidence 11 correctly, those two (2) that were now in the MNR parking 12 lot were basically under the control or direction of the 13 OPP. It wasn't up to you to direct them where to go? 14 A: They're under their dispatch control. 15 However, their movements would be closely monitored and 16 directed at that location by the OPP. 17 Q: All right, they'd still be on your 18 queue, on your computer screen, but it would show them 19 being in the MNR parking lot unless you hear otherwise? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: All right, so the OPP would direct 22 those two (2) ambulances as to where to go, and you'd 23 still be responsible for the rest of the area for any 24 other incidents that occurred? 25 A: Right.


1 Q: All right, now you were also under 2 the additional direction from the OPP, and presumably it 3 was Sergeant Reid, that any incident that occurred in the 4 general area, had to be reported to the command centre. 5 Would that be accurate? 6 A: Well that's -- that was never -- that 7 was never -- that point was never brought forth. But it 8 was just commonsense and courtesy to notify them of any 9 developments. 10 Q: All right, that was an assumption on 11 your part that if something came up, given that you now 12 knew there was something going on at Ipperwash Park, that 13 you would -- you would contact either Sergeant Reid, or 14 later it was Sergeant Cousineau -- 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: -- and advise them of what was 17 happening? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So as opposed to a usual evening 20 where, if you got a call and required police assistance 21 you would call a dispatch centre, on this evening in 22 question you would call the command centre and let either 23 Sergeant Reid or Sergeant Cousineau know -- 24 A: Right. 25 Q: -- about this?


1 A: That's right. 2 Q: And just for my benefit, was Sergeant 3 Reid -- or my understanding is, Sergeant Reid was in 4 Forest and Sergeant Cousineau was at the command centre 5 at the MNR parking lot? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: That was your understanding? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: All right, and in fact you got calls 10 from both of them at around 11:00 p.m. that evening, one 11 from Forest and one from the MNR parking lot? 12 A: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, you'd indicated that ordinarily 17 you keep track of all your units on a queue but when 18 things get hectic, there can be a lot of movement and it 19 can be like doing a chess game, trying to keep track -- 20 A: Well that -- 21 Q: -- of everything? 22 A: Generally, that would reflect on the 23 crew or on the queue as well, though. 24 Q: All right, but it's a lot more 25 difficult with a chess game if you're not moving all the


1 pieces. 2 You need notification of where people are 3 going? 4 A: If we're not advised, you mean? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right, now for your benefit, we 8 do have -- we do have a lot more documentary evidence in 9 the background here and we -- it's anticipated that the 10 drivers from the MNR parking lot are going to testify 11 that they called back as soon as they received direction 12 from the OPP medic to attend out at Highway 21 and Army 13 Camp Road. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: Now, do you recall ever receiving a 16 call from them as they left the MNR parking lot or at any 17 time before they arrived at 21 -- 18 A: From the ambulances? 19 Q: From the ambulances. 20 A: No, not to my recollection. 21 Q: Okay, I didn't see it in the 22 transcript that we had from the tape. 23 A: No. 24 Q: if they had called in to notify you 25 of their change of location, would it not be on one of


1 the tapes? 2 A: Certainly. 3 Q: All right, so at some point and it 4 was reflected, I think, in the testimony this morning, at 5 some point you lost track and it's no fault of your own, 6 you lost track of the ambulances that were supposed to be 7 in the MNR parking lot and it seemed to relocate either 8 on their own or at the direction of the OPP, out to 21 9 and Army Camp Road? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And that movement caused you some 12 difficulties responding, because you didn't have the two 13 (2) units that you thought you had at the MNR parking 14 lot? 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Is that fair? 17 A: Yeah, I understand. 18 Q: And in particular, you got a call 19 from the Park store and you thought that you had two (2) 20 ambulances that were in the vicinity, a couple of hundred 21 feet away under the OPP direction that could have 22 responded to that call: is that fair? 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: No, I'm asking you, is that fair? 25 Was that your thinking was that one (1) or both of those


1 ambulance could have responded to that call -- 2 A: If -- 3 Q: -- that you received from the Park 4 store? 5 A: If we considered on sending them down 6 there, yes. 7 Q: Okay, well regardless if you 8 considered it, it seems from the tape that you called 9 Sergeant Cousineau, and you said, we've got a call from 10 the Park store, and he asks you a number of questions 11 about that? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: Correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: At some point on the tape, he seems 16 to indicate, don't send the ambulances, just give us a 17 number, a phone number, which you did; do you recall 18 that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. It seems to me from 21 listening to the tape that Sergeant Cousineau didn't know 22 the phone number for the Provincial Park, nor did he know 23 the location that you'd given him on Army Camp Road for 24 that Park store phone; is that fair? 25 A: I think he would have known the


1 location if he had to go up and go to the Ipperwash Park 2 store, it's the address he wasn't familiar with. 3 Q: Right. He would have understood if 4 you'd told him it was the Ipperwash Park store, but he 5 didn't know the address of -- 6 A: The address wasn't familiar to him. 7 Q: Right, the 7840 Army Camp Road? 8 A: 9780, yeah. 9 Q: Okay. From your discussions with 10 him, that address, for want of a better term, didn't ring 11 a bell with him; he didn't know where that was? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Okay. Then, the two (2) ambulances 14 were relocated to Army Camp Road and Highway 21 and you 15 received a call that they were tending to somebody that 16 was there? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: All right. And, it was an injury, 19 they thought it was a gunshot wound. Okay. 20 A: Yes, yes. 21 Q: Is it fair to say that you didn't 22 call the police at that point to request escort or 23 assistance because you already presumed they'd be 24 assisting because they were in the -- the area? 25 A: Definitely.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: Because the crew is -- the crew 3 would have let us know if the police were not there. 4 Q: Right, it was in the general vicinity 5 of this operation and you would have assumed they would 6 have been taking care of it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. You then get a call from 9 Nauvoo Road and you have a report of a gunshot wound. 10 You make a decision to send one (1) of the ambulances 11 that's otherwise occupied at Army Camp Road and Highway 12 21 down to Nauvoo Road; do you recall that? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: Is it fair to say that when you 15 received the phone call that there was a gunshot wound, 16 that you, in your mind, equated it with whatever was 17 going on at Ipperwash Park? 18 A: It was related to, you mean? 19 Q: It was related to what was going on 20 up there? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And, when you made that 23 connection, you decided one (1) of those ambulances, 24 which you already had committed to the area would have 25 been best to respond to the Nauvoo Road location?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. What I don't understand, 3 is there not two (2) ambulances sitting on standby at the 4 Forest location still at that point in time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Why didn't you call the 7 Forest Ambulance Station to have one (1) of those 8 ambulances come to Nauvoo Road? 9 A: I don't know. 10 Q: Is it fair to say it's because you 11 equated it with what was going on up in Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park? 13 A: Yes, I don't think that was the 14 reason why, though. 15 Q: Now, you -- you don't know why you 16 didn't call the Forest detachment? 17 A: No, but I don't -- I don't think it's 18 -- whether it was related or not, that's not why I didn't 19 send the Forest. 20 Q: You just don't recall why that 21 didn't happen? 22 A: No, that's right. 23 Q: All right. You made a call -- 24 A: Likely -- likely because I'm sitting 25 there talking with one (1) of the -- the crew members at


1 the time and being focussed in on that -- on that crew 2 member or that -- that ambulance, and we're already 3 speaking with them on the air through radio traffic, 4 sometimes we just get so busy and caught up that we 5 forget about other resources. 6 Q: All right. It made sense since you 7 were already online with them to tell them to relocate as 8 fast as they can, Code 4, down to Nauvoo Road? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. You did -- 11 A: As a matter of fact, I even 12 remember mentioning to use 1147. I did say that to -- to 13 Mr. Gilpin. 14 Q: To who? 15 A: Mr. Gilpin, that's who I was speaking 16 with, so I said, I think Thedford's going to be closer. 17 Thedford is the 1147 unit and they are at Forest base and 18 I even mentioned to Jack Knight, you can hear it on the 19 tape so, I'm just conversing like I am conversing with 20 this gentleman; 1147 is closer. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, just so there 22 isn't any confusing, the transcript indicates that Mr. 23 Gilpin, at page 8 indicates -- says to Mr. Connors, Give 24 that to 1147 and -- 25 THE WITNESS: Right.


1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- then Mr. Connors 2 responds, yes, we should and -- 3 THE WITNESS: Right. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- we reviewed that. 5 THE WITNESS: And then after that, here 6 I'm not passing the buck, but Jack Knight is in control 7 of the dispatchers at that time and he sends 46. 8 I have -- I can overrule him. However, it 9 didn't come to mind to do that. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 12 Q: All right, I'm not asking you to pass 13 the buck, I'm just trying to see how it came to be. 14 A: All right. 15 Q: So -- 16 A: So, Jack -- Jack picked up his -- he 17 looks at his resources and he was probably doing the same 18 thing as me. He picked the most accessible ambulance. 19 Q: Okay. At the same time, you've 20 called Sergeant Cousineau, you've let him know about this 21 call from Nauvoo Road and that there was a gunshot victim 22 that was in the driveway of this address? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: You didn't call main dispatch for OPP 25 assistance of any kind? Is it fair to say that you


1 relied on your call to Detective Cousineau or Sergeant 2 Cousineau to provide that assistance? 3 A: Certainly I did. 4 Q: All right, in fact one (1) of the 5 ambulances called you at some point and said, is -- are 6 the police there yet? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Can we assume that they had expected 9 some assistance because of the nature of the injury 10 called in from Nauvoo Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you also expected police to 13 respond? 14 A: I expected them to be on the way, 15 certainly. Whether they were or not, I'm not sure. 16 Q: No, and that's not for you to answer, 17 but -- 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Yeah. There'll be other witnesses we 20 can ask that of. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Those are all my 25 questions.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Scullion. 3 We're going to adjourn at 4:30. We still 4 intend to adjourn at -- I'm sorry, at 3:30 or 4:30? 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3:30. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At 3:30. 7 Shall we just keep going? I think so, I think we should 8 just keep going. 9 Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson is next. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good 14 afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 16 afternoon. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON 19 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Connors. My name 20 is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm going to ask you some 21 questions on behalf of the OPP. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Just so I understand, if you turn to 24 Tab 8, please, which is document 5000215. 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And I'll just


1 pause, Mr. Commissioner. I don't believe we've made this 2 an exhibit yet, and we've made extensive reference to it, 3 and I'm wondering if we could have it marked as the next 4 exhibit, please? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is the 6 transcript? 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, sir. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-351, your 9 Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-351. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you very 12 much. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-351: Document No. 5000215 15 transcript from tape of 16 September 6/7/'95 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: Just so that we're clear, because 20 obviously the answer you're about to give me affects the 21 time that has passed as we listen to this recording, 22 which has been transcribed here, is everything as we see 23 it, is it happening consecutive to one another or to each 24 event, or are any of the things that we see transcribed 25 here occurring concurrent with one another?


1 Do you know what I mean? 2 A: Hmm hmm, I do know what you mean. I 3 would -- I would believe it is -- it is co-current but -- 4 concurrent, rather, but I can't confirm that. 5 Q: Okay, so it's possible that some of 6 the things that we see recorded here are happening -- 7 happening simultaneously? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right, so when we've heard that 10 the duration of the recording that we -- we listened to 11 this morning is thirty-nine (39) minutes, that's not an 12 actual measure of real time, because what's happening is 13 we have thirty-nine (39) minutes with things that are 14 occurring simultaneously, but they've been reproduced on 15 the recording as if they're happening consecutively? 16 A: Right. 17 Q: All right. So in actuality the time 18 frame that's being covered and as recorded and 19 transcribed here is actually shorter than thirty-nine 20 (39) minutes? 21 A: I would believe it to be. That's the 22 way I explained it to this young lady here. 23 Q: Okay. The difficulty is, is that we 24 have no real way of identifying how much shorter it is? 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: Okay. Well that -- that affects a 2 lot of the times here. All right. I have a different 3 question though now. 4 My Friend, Ms. Esmonde asked you to look 5 at the transcript and try and identify for us when it 6 came to the attention of the Wallaceburg CACC that the 7 two (2) units that were at the MNR parking lot, had 8 actually relocated to the intersection at Highway 21 and 9 Army Camp Road. 10 And as I understood your evidence, and I 11 see you're pointing to it right now. You're looking at 12 page 1 of the transcript, about the last quarter down and 13 you're looking at an entry from Unit 1146 and I think we 14 know that's Mr. Tedball speaking? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: Okay. He's responding to a question 17 by Jack Knight: 18 "Are either of you moving at this 19 time?" 20 And Mr. Tedball responds: 21 "That's negative, we've just got in 22 position here, over, we could be 23 transporting." 24 And that's what you're relying upon to 25 conclude that at that point they had moved from the MNR


1 parking lot to the intersection? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay, because I'm going to suggest to 4 you that they're actually still in place in the parking 5 lot and they actually move closer to page 5 and page 6. 6 If I could take you there, please. We go 7 to the bottom of page 5 and you'll see at the bottom 8 there's an entry by OPP which presumably is -- is Officer 9 Cousineau and it says: 10 "Okay. Apparently someone is coming 11 out at the front of the Army Camp Base 12 at 21 Highway." 13 And Jack Knight is responding: 14 "Yeah, reporting somebody's been shot, 15 okay?" 16 Again Jack Knight says "okay". 17 Officer Cousineau: "So apparently 18 somebody from down at the scene is 19 going to come around and go to that 20 scene." 21 Then you see Mr. Knight saying: 22 "okay, sounds.." 23 And then you were about to move into a 24 conversation with Unit 1146. 25 And I'm particularly interested in the


1 next line. You've got 1146 saying to your office: 2 " 1146, 1145, 10-8, Code 4 to the.." 3 And then we can't decipher it. 4 Now start -- stopping just for a moment. 5 Is Mr. Tedball not communicating that the two (2) units, 6 1146, 1145 are leaving, that's what 10-8 means, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: On a Code 4 to wherever. Jack Knight 9 then says and that helps us -- I'm going to suggest to 10 you, put some context as to where the destination is: 11 "Roger, out to the main entrance. 12 Yep, they're both heading up to the 13 Army Camp main entrance." 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: Now isn't it more logical to conclude 16 that it's at this point that you're learning that they're 17 moving up to the Army camp and indeed that this suggests 18 that Mr. Tedball is communicating that, indeed, they're 19 about to move? 20 A: Certainly. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Okay. Could I ask you to turn to Tab 25 14, please? And in particular, sir, I'd ask you to turn


1 to page 8 of that document, but for the purposes of the 2 record I'm referring to Document 5000183. 3 It is a transcript of an interview, sir, 4 that I understand you participated in on July the 7th, 5 2003, with a Detective Armstrong and that was in relation 6 to an investigation by the Coroner's Office in relation 7 to this incident. 8 Do I have that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. You've told us in excruciating 11 detail about all the phone calls that you had that night 12 on September the 6th and it's quite clear that things 13 were happening fast and furiously; fair enough? 14 A: Oh, very fair. 15 Q: And, certainly it would appear that - 16 - that everyone was doing the best they could given the 17 circumstances they had to work under; would that be fair? 18 A: Very. 19 Q: Okay. I'm interested in a passage or 20 an exchange that you had with Detective Armstrong that 21 appears at page 8 because he asked you about, in your 22 view, whether or not the ambulance personnel appeared to 23 be in any way hindered in responding to victims who had 24 been identified in this context by the OPP. 25 And you advised Detective Armstrong, as


1 confirmed on page 8: 2 "No, the police were not hindrance 3 whatsoever. The communications between 4 the OPP Communication Centre and the 5 Ambulance Centre were second to none. 6 They were very efficient and very 7 detailed. There was, I noticed, no 8 hindrance whatsoever with the OPP 9 involvement." 10 And, I trust you still agree with that 11 today? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Detective Armstrong goes on: 14 "Did you hear any reports of your 15 ambulances being prevented from 16 attending to the victims by the OPP?" 17 And, you respond? 18 "No, there was -- to my knowledge, 19 there was no restriction to any areas 20 by the OPP of any ambulances." 21 And, I trust you still agree with that 22 today? 23 A: No -- yes, I do. 24 Q: Right. Leaving aside, obviously, 25 that the OPP was clearly under an obligation to provide -


1 - to address security concerns that your personnel -- 2 A: Thank you, yes. 3 Q: Right, I understand that, but apart 4 from that, from everything you learned of in the context, 5 they did nothing to prevent your personnel from doing 6 their jobs? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Right, okay. 9 You referred, sir, to the first 10 conversation you had of the evening with Officer Reid 11 that occurred at 21:00 hours and you indicated that he 12 provided you with very generalized information that there 13 was a potential need for ambulance services that night 14 and it was for that reason he wanted two (2) on standby, 15 correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And, you understood that there was 18 some type of a police operation going on, but as you've 19 indicated, you weren't provided with many details? 20 A: True. 21 Q: All right. What inquiries did you 22 make of Sergeant Reid during that call of any details 23 that, perhaps, would have assisted you in -- in making 24 contingency plans? 25 A: I could have asked him questions what


1 was going on, but having been in that business a long 2 time, when you're provided with general information like 3 that it's just understood that it's -- they're in control 4 of the security; it's a very secure area. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: And, basically I -- I can almost 7 assure you, you're going to hear from the ambulance 8 crews. I can almost assure that they didn't ask 9 questions, either. They just went down there and they 10 did as -- as they were asked and did what they had to do. 11 Q: No, I -- I understand that. You had 12 indicated at one (1) point today that -- that you had not 13 been apprised of potential weaponry that may be involved 14 and, of course, in -- in part it begs the question who -- 15 who could have been aware of what was going to happen 16 that night, or how events would have unfolded? We'll 17 address that issue at another time and on another day. 18 But, I guess my question of you is that, 19 you didn't ask them any specifics in terms of potential 20 weaponry or potential types of casualties? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Those are my questions, Mr. 23 Connors. Thank you for your time. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much.


1 Mr. Roland...? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: Mr. Connors, my name's Ian Roland and 9 I am here representing the Ontario Provincial Police 10 Association. 11 I have just one short area to followup 12 from Mr. Scullion's questioning of you this afternoon in 13 which he put to you the proposition of an ordinary day, 14 September the 6th, 1995, when there's no anticipated 15 activity at Ipperwash Park. 16 And you receive a call from Nauvoo Road 17 and you receive a call from Ipperwash Park store, a 911 18 call, which you did that evening at about 11:27 at night 19 and where you would, in the normal course, have 20 dispatched ambulances from. 21 Do you recall that -- those questions? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And your response in looking at the 24 map was that you would having, looked at distances, you 25 would have dispatched ambulances from the Thedford


1 ambulance station? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: We heard from Mr. Knight yesterday 4 that , when he reviewed, I think it's in Exhibit 345, 5 it's the -- it's the Central Ambulance Communications 6 Centre -- 7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: That's, I think, in your -- is that 11 in your Tab -- that's in your Tab 5, I think. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it's 16 Tab 5. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: And there -- you'll see this thing 20 called the, Central Ambulance Communications Centre, 21 September 8, Ipperwash incident; have you got that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And when he reviewed this, he pointed 24 out to us, and going down it, that the Thedford station 25 is only staffed from 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was that -- that was so, I take 3 it? 4 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 5 Q: And so to follow up Mr. Scullion's 6 question, then, would you -- if -- if there was no staff 7 at Thedford at eleven o'clock at night or 11:30 at night, 8 would you have still dispatched from Thedford? 9 A: They're not normally -- they're not 10 on site. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: After -- at that particular time, 13 they were staffed from -- what did you say, 8:00 until 14 6:00? 15 Q: Yeah, they're 8:00 to 6:00 p.m. 16 A: 8:00 to 6:00 and after that time, 17 they generally go home with their pagers or do whatever 18 they have to do; they are accessible by pager. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: And they are -- once -- if we require 21 them, they are paged in and they are required to respond 22 within an allocated time period. 23 Q: Well, in those circumstances when 24 they're not on site, following up from Mr. Scullion's 25 question, would you have still selected Thedford at 11:30


1 at night, or would you have picked, for example, Forest, 2 where there was staff on the -- on duty? 3 A: At that particular time, 1995? 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: They were on call back as well, which 6 meant that they weren't staffed right around the clock. 7 Q: I see. Som Forest was also on call? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I see. So, you would have been 10 calling on call either way? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what's the timeframe from calling 13 on call, to when you call someone on call to them to get 14 to the ambulance place -- ambulance station, I guess, 15 where the ambulance is located, before they can start the 16 call? 17 A: They have to be mobile within ten 18 (10) minutes. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: That's a Ministry policy. 21 Q: That is ten (10) minutes from the 22 time they receive the call at home to the time they reach 23 their ambulance and start driving it to the call? 24 A: From the time that they receive their 25 first page.


1 Q: All right. 2 A: Until the time they go mobile, yes. 3 Q: So, if this was an ordinary evening 4 then, as opposed to the evening we're talking about, 5 there would have been, potentially, up to a ten (10) 6 minute delay longer than the evening we are talking about 7 where there were ambulances staffed and ready to go? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 11 O'Marra, you're next. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. AL O'MARRA: Yes, thank you, 16 Commissioner. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 19 Q: Now, Mr. Connors, my name is Al 20 O'Marra and I'm appearing on behalf of the Chief Coroner 21 and I'm not going to be asking you any questions about 22 that night and the times and your involvement. 23 What I do want to ask you about, though, 24 is some of the information you related about contingency 25 plans and your experiences from that time, both as


1 supervisor in communications and as a paramedic. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now, with respect to the 4 contingency plans, as I understood your evidence, it 5 involved, at least from your service at that time, or at 6 your centre, your manager and his -- his assistant? 7 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 8 Q: But, that you, as staff, along with 9 the others, weren't brought into that as such? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: All right. And after September of 12 1995 and the events that we've -- we've heard about, did 13 that change? 14 A: To including the staff body? 15 Q: Yes. To including you in -- in -- 16 information about contingency plans about how -- how your 17 service -- 18 A: No not, not drastically, no. And 19 it's -- basically it did not change. And if there was 20 other staff included in the preparation of these plans, I 21 wasn't made aware. And if I was made aware, the 22 information that they'd created wasn't shared. 23 Q: So, there was no -- so not only did 24 attending or -- or being informed verbally, there was 25 nothing in writing that was provided to you in terms of


1 whatever plans there were? 2 A: Just that there was the occupation, 3 the police presence and the possibility of a number of 4 victims requiring transport. And basically it was -- if 5 -- if that's the case -- the only thing that -- that was 6 made, we were made aware of was that extra staffing of 7 personnel. 8 Q: Okay. Perhaps so I -- I'm being 9 clear, with you in terms of what I'm looking for. I'm 10 speaking -- the contingency planning in terms of how to 11 respond to an emergent situation where you had a number 12 of casualties and you had to provide services. 13 I'm not speaking about, sort of, a 14 debriefing or analysis of that event, what I'm speaking 15 about is were there a contingency -- was there 16 contingency planing going on afterwards in terms of, not 17 this event of course that had happened, but others 18 perspective future events and were you and other staff 19 brought into it? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Now you are currently a paramedic? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And -- and operating, I understand, 24 in -- out of Chatham. 25 A: That's right.


1 Q: Okay. And we've -- understand that 2 there are different levels of paramedics? 3 A: Yes there are. 4 Q: Primary care and advance care? And 5 I'm sorry, in terms of your -- your training? 6 A: Primary care. 7 Q: Primary care. And the service that - 8 - that you work with, is that the standard in terms of 9 your -- your crew members? 10 A: My level of training is the same as 11 theirs. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: There's -- we only have primary care 14 paramedics. 15 Q: That's what I'm asking, so -- your 16 service doesn't have the advanced care -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: And in your experience is that a 19 common feature of most of the services throughout the 20 southwestern Ontario area? 21 A: Yes, yes, it is. I gave a figure of 22 70 percent maybe are primary care but it's -- it's 23 probably closer to 80 or 90 I believe. I'm not sure. 24 Q: And is there any involvement, either 25 of yourself as a primary care physician -- paramedic, in


1 working with other services; either training or -- or 2 education along side fire personnel or police department 3 personnel? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And is that in -- in terms of 6 how you coordinate your services when responding to a -- 7 a situation? 8 A: Many fire services are -- they 9 receive training in a very basic level. A lot of fire 10 services back then were even trained in defibrillator 11 training. 12 That's a -- that's a very basic skill. 13 The -- the public is even involved in that -- in that 14 point, in that point and time. And at the time I think 15 it's just a few hour course in order to train the fire 16 service to use something like that. 17 Q: Is -- you've been with the -- I think 18 it's the Sun Power Emergency Services (phonetic) or 19 ambulance service in Chatham? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And do you do any joint 22 training with the local police service? The regional 23 police service -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- in terms of responding to


1 situations? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Are you familiar with any service 4 such as your own doing that kind of training in this 5 area? 6 A: With the police? 7 Q: Yeah, with the police -- 8 A: No, no, no. 9 Q: -- in terms of how you approach an 10 emergent situation and who has control and how you enter 11 into areas, those kinds of things? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I know there are larger centres like 15 -- like London. I'm not sure if London even has it. I - 16 - the tactical EMS -- it's EMS personnel that are trained 17 in tactical manoeuvres with the police. It's gen -- 18 primarily in the larger centres. 19 Q: You've only heard of that in terms of 20 the larger urban area? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. 23 Connors. Those are my questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much.


1 Ms. Vella...? 2 3 RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Unfortunately I have to go back to 5 Exhibit P-157 and Exhibit P-351. That's the -- that is 6 the tapes supplied by the Wallaceburg Central Ambulance 7 Communication Centre, which we played this morning 8 reflecting the events of September 6th, 1995. 9 And the transcript, P-351 is the 10 transcript supplied by the Wallaceburg Central Ambulance 11 Communication Centre. 12 Now, am I correct in those two (2) 13 assumptions? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And, this goes to a 16 question that my Friend Ms. Tuck-Jackson put to you with 17 respect to the accuracy of the timing of the events 18 within that tape. 19 Now, was any alterations made to the tape, 20 that is P-157, from the -- the time the -- the actual 21 recording took place in the evening of September the 6th, 22 1995? 23 Were any alterations -- in other words, is 24 the tape supplied by the Wallaceburg Central Ambulance 25 Communications Centre in the same form as was originally


1 recorded during the course of the night, September the 2 6th, 1995? 3 A: Was it altered you mean, or -- 4 Q: Right. Was it altered or is it a 5 duplicate of the recording as it was on September the 6 6th, 1955? 7 A: It is a -- I'm not sure if I 8 understand you, Susan. 9 Q: Well, I'm asking you if it's a copy; 10 it's clearly a copy. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: What I want to know is, is it a true 13 copy of the recording that was made -- 14 A: Like a thirty-nine (39) minute 15 recording, is what you're saying? 16 Q: Yes, concurrent with the events of 17 September the 6th, 1995? 18 A: Well, there are events in here which 19 were simultaneously... 20 Q: Clearly, and those -- anything that's 21 simultaneous is reflected on the tape. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You didn't go into the tape and


1 splice out simultaneous conversations, so now they're 2 consecutive? 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Is that fair? 5 A: I understand what you're getting at 6 now. 7 Q: Is that fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. So, for example, if the call - 10 - if the tape started transmission or recording at 11:06 11 or 23:06 that evening as indicated by Mr. Knight in the 12 first line of the transcript. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: Then, if a statement is recorded as 15 having been twenty-three (23) minutes after or in -- 16 after the commencement of the tape, then we can safely 17 say that statement occurred at 11:06 plus twenty-three 18 (23) minutes for 11:29? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is that fair? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, in that sense, this is a 23 recording in real time of the events as they occurred 24 that evening? 25 A: To my knowledge, yes.


1 Q: And so, the forty-nine (49) minute 2 tape reflected forty-nine (49) minutes of actual time in 3 the dispatch centre that night? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Meaning that the start 6 time was at 11:06 and the end time would have been 11:55 7 p.m., approximately; 11:06 plus forty-nine (49) minutes? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Yes. So, the last -- the last 10 statement in the tape would have been at 11:55, not in 11 the transcripts. Remember, the transcript doesn't cover 12 the -- that last part of the -- the statement. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm a little 14 confused. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: May I ask a 17 question here, without -- and you can stop me -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: By all means. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If two 20 events -- you indicated that events could occur 21 simultaneously? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If two (2) 24 events occurred simultaneously, how would they be 25 recorded on the transcripts?


1 THE WITNESS: See, that's what -- that's 2 what I'm getting at is that -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just would 4 like to know how -- 5 THE WITNESS: They -- if A -- if A and B 6 happened at the same time, A would be recorded, the 7 originating sources of -- of audio would be stopped, the 8 person doing it would go back and find the beginning of 9 B -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would it be, 11 sort of, on a hold pattern -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that B; 14 it would just sit there somewhere? 15 THE WITNESS: No, it just continues on, 16 because if there's -- if there's radio and telephone 17 conversations at the same time, as I indicated earlier, 18 there's different channels on the -- on the logger and 19 you can have them -- you can listen to one (1) channel at 20 a time, as an example, in order to copy your 21 conversations. 22 So, they're listening to both of them, the 23 telephone and the radio at the same time. They would go 24 back to the very beginning, they would shut off all the 25 other channels. They would tape A first. Once that's


1 done, they would go back to the beginning, shut A off and 2 start taking -- taping B, where A left off on their 3 reproduced tape. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's 5 possible that the real time was longer than thirty-nine 6 (39) minutes? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Is longer? No, it 8 would be shorter. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, shorter, 10 I'm sorry, shorter. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean 13 shorter. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Well, but with all due respect, Mr. 17 Connors, the tape speaks for itself, does it not? 18 The tape, in other words will indicate if 19 there's a simultaneous discussion going on; that's why we 20 don't have all of Mr. Knight's comments on this 21 particular tape. 22 Aren't you meaning to say that when the 23 transcription happened, the -- the transcriber would 24 rewind the tape to -- to see if she could discern the 25 other part of the conversation?


1 A: They would have to. 2 Q: But we're not altering the tape. 3 It's a -- this is -- this reflects a thirty-nine (39) 4 minute space period of time. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 6 we're all a bit confused. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, I know, and I -- 8 that's why I'm trying to clarify this. 9 THE WITNESS: Thirty-nine (39) minutes 10 indicates the -- the actual time of everything put 11 together, is that what you're saying? 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Well, we know that -- we know what 15 the duration of the tape is, because we -- we had a 16 counter and the duration of the tape is -- is thirty-nine 17 (39) minutes and some, I think, fifteen (15) seconds. 18 That's the duration of the tape, and we 19 know that it started, in terms of the time -- the time 20 that the recorded started, at 11:06. We know that from 21 Mr. Gilpin's identification. 22 And then you have a number of statements. 23 We hear all the statements that have been transcribed, we 24 hear those statements on the tape. 25 The statements we don't hear on the tape


1 are similarly not transcribed. 2 You've indicated that there was a shut 3 down and isolation of different channels and now they've 4 put all of the conversations into one tape, but we've 5 heard -- we've got -- we've heard -- we've heard the tape 6 with all of the statements on it, and all those 7 statements up until the end of the tape, anyways, are in 8 the transcript, up to the last nine (9) minutes of the 9 tape. 10 So what I'm trying to determine is, is the 11 tape a recording of what was recorded that night, or have 12 you altered the tape to take in different -- different 13 tapes, if you will? 14 How many tapes were running that night? 15 A: How many recording sources? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: There's one which can be broken down 18 to many different channels. 19 Q: Okay, so one (1) recording source? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right, and it accepts information 22 from different channels; is that what you're saying? 23 A: Yes, exactly. 24 Q: And so the tape that we have today, 25 is it a duplicate tape of what was recorded on that


1 single recording source? 2 A: No. Of -- oh, the single? Yes, 3 sorry. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And it's broken down. The reason I'm 6 saying that is because there are conversations in here 7 that are separated... 8 Q: I'm listening. 9 A: I'm just trying to put it in my head. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: You can hear them, as an example, you 12 can hear them over the telephone receiver. 13 Q: Yes, you can. 14 A: And then -- 15 Q: You can hear that. 16 A: And then it is recorded again with 17 only the -- with only the radio traffic, unless I'm 18 thinking -- referring to another transcript. 19 Do you follow what I mean? 20 Q: No, I'm sorry, I don't. 21 A: It just means that -- 22 Q: You've indicated there was one (1) 23 recording source on that night, accepting different 24 channels. So whatever the recording source recorded that 25 night from approximately eleven o'clock to midnight,


1 let's use that general time frame; is that what we have? 2 A: What you should do is ask the person 3 that recorded -- that -- that put it all together like 4 that. 5 Q: All right, and who would that be? 6 A: Well, Judy Carnegie signed it, but 7 she wouldn't have done the work. 8 Q: Right. And you signed it also, so 9 who would have done the tape; do you know? 10 A: It would have been another 11 supervisor. 12 Q: All right. All right. Then perhaps 13 that's the best we can do and we'll leave it at that. 14 Thank you very much, Mr. Connors, appreciated your time 15 here today. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much, Mr. Connors, for giving us your evidence. 18 It's now 3:10, do you want to start 19 another witness now? 20 21 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 22 23 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I'm 24 certainly in your hands on that note. I can tell you 25 that the next witness is present and has been on standby,


1 but they have also been alerted through their Counsel who 2 is also present with them, of the likelihood at this 3 point now that they may not get started today and so, 4 certainly I would leave it, Commissioner, in your hands. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 6 should begin and go as far as we can -- 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Because I can tell 8 you, if we -- if we start with him, we likely won't get 9 through, but I'm certainly happy to commence. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll still 11 be in your examination-in-chief. Well, your 12 examination's going to be longer than twenty (20) 13 minutes? 14 MR. DONALD WORME: Definitely. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we'll 16 just go as far as we can and then we'll break and 17 continue when we come back next week. 18 MR. DONALD WORME: And do you wish that I 19 should break, then, at 3:30? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll break 21 -- I'm sorry, I thought that I was getting some reaction, 22 but I think we should begin and go as far as we can. 23 We'll break at 3:30, but I think we should begin and go 24 as far as we can. 25 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Thank


1 you, then, Commissioner. 2 The Commission would then call Mark Watt 3 as the next witness. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps, I can just 8 take a moment as well, Commissioner, to introduce Mr. 9 Watt's Counsel, who are here. That is Ms. Kelly Graham 10 in the back together with her associate or assistant -- 11 pardon me, associate counsel Jill Simpson. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 afternoon. 14 MS. KELLY GRAHAM: Good afternoon, 15 Commissioner. 16 MS. JILL SIMPSON: Good afternoon. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 18 Watts, do you prefer to swear on the Bible, sir, or 19 affirm? 20 THE WITNESS: The Bible sounds good. 21 THE REGISTRAR: The Bible's to your 22 right, sir, if you'd just take that in your right hand 23 and give us your name in full, please. 24 THE WITNESS: Mark Arthur Watt. 25


1 MARK ARTHUR WATT, Sworn 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 4 5 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Watt. Mr. Watt, 7 your date of birth is May 5th, 1965? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: That makes you thirty-nine (39) years 10 of age at present? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You had, by way of your background 13 and training, you had received a diploma in emergency 14 medical care from the program at Fanshawe College in 15 London, Ontario? 16 A: Yes, that's right. 17 Q: And, when was that, sir? 18 A: 1985. 19 Q: And, by 1995, you had upgraded your 20 skills such that you were designated a Level 1 Medic at 21 that point? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: In 1995, sir, you were employed with 24 the Forest Ambulance Service? 25 A: Yes, that's right.


1 Q: And, your position at that time? 2 A: Medic 1. 3 Q: And, we've heard a little bit about 4 ambulances so far, but we haven't had occasion to speak 5 to anybody in -- in the capacity that you had served in 6 and I wonder if you might be able to just give us a 7 general outline of the duties of -- of a Medic 1? 8 A: Well, Medic 1 at that time you'd be 9 delivering patients to different transfers. Of course, 10 you'd do standbys and Code 4's, which are urgent, Code 11 3's -- or Code 3's are urgent; Code 4's are life- 12 threatening and anything to do with any emergencies. You 13 would do CPR; we were also trained in defibrillation and 14 we did a bit of, you know, anaphylactic reactions and -- 15 and different diabetes problems. So, it kind of -- 16 variety right across the board. 17 The only thing that we weren't completely 18 trained on was intubation or anything to do with major 19 drugs. 20 Q: Okay, and intubation meaning? 21 A: Well, putting a tube down in your 22 throat through your airway into your lung. 23 Q: Okay. And, that -- that wasn't part 24 of the training? 25 A: No.


1 Q: All right. We've also heard, Mr. 2 Watt, that your -- the ambulances that you and your 3 associates would staff would be dispatched from a central 4 dispatch and in this instance from the Wallaceburg CACC? 5 A: Yes, that's right. 6 Q: All right. How long were you 7 employed, then, with the Forest Ambulance Service? 8 A: Seven (7) years. 9 Q: And you -- and I understand had left 10 that employment in about 1999? 11 A: Around that, I'm not specifically 12 sure. I don't have the date but yes, very close to that. 13 Q: And since that date, you've been 14 employed as a truck operator? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: I want to take you to September the 17 6th, of 1995, sir. You will -- you've had an opportunity 18 to review various documents in the brief beside you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you will confirm that you were on 21 duty on that particular day, that is September the 6th of 22 1995? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: okay, I wonder if you can just tell 25 us if you can, what you recall about being called on duty


1 and what it was that you were advised or instructed to 2 do? 3 A: Well initially I was at home. We 4 were on -- it's called 'on call' or you're with your 5 pager. My pager went off to respond to the Forest 6 District Detachment for a Code 8, which is a standby. 7 Q: And as a result of receiving that 8 page and a Code 8 to go on standby, what did you do? 9 A: We remained at the Forest District 10 base until we were notified. Do you want me to -- 11 Q: Sorry? 12 A: We were at the Forest base, Code 8, 13 initially we were at the base until we were otherwise 14 identified to go anywhere else. 15 Q: All right, and when you say 'we' I 16 take it then that you were with somebody else, that you 17 were partnered up with somebody? 18 A: Yes. John Tedball. 19 Q: Okay. And we'll be hearing from Mr. 20 Tedball. So you and Mr. Tedball I take it were then 21 assigned to a particular unit were you; an ambulance 22 unit? 23 A: Yes, 1146. 24 Q: 1146? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And on being assigned that, are you 2 also given your various tasks that is to say who would be 3 the attendant and who would be the driver? 4 A: Most of the time what will happen is 5 that we would just switch. If I did this call as an 6 attendant, then he would be a driver and we might 7 possibly switch the next. 8 But that particular night he was the 9 driver and I was the attendant. 10 Q: All right. So there's no -- no 11 typical position that you're assigned to. You might -- 12 you might alternate in terms of the tasks? 13 A: Exactly. 14 Q: Perhaps I can just refer you, sir, to 15 Tab Number 5 in the Document Binder beside you. It is 16 marked in these proceedings as Exhibit 340 -- 17 THE REGISTRAR: 345. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME. 20 Q: -- 345 and that being Document Number 21 1002002. There's a number of documents in there but in 22 particular what I'm interested in having you look at, Mr. 23 Watt, is the ambulance dispatch logs. 24 And you'll note that there are -- there is 25 a small number which is accompanied by the word 'Front'.


1 I wonder if you might just look this way. There's a very 2 small number right up in the top right-hand corner -- 3 pardon me, left-hand corner. 4 A: What number are we look -- what 5 number am I looking for? 6 Q: We're looking for 009531. 1002002. 7 A: 2002? 8 Q: No, no. I'm sorry I was repeating 9 the document number for Mr. Orkin. 10 A: What was the other number you said, 11 9531? 12 Q: Yes. And do you have that in front 13 of you? 14 A: Not just yet. Okay, I am getting 15 close. 0009531, okay. 16 Q: Yes, sir. And I suggest to you that 17 that is a dispatch log record. You'll notice that the 18 unit number is 1146? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the next number there 51201, I 21 take it that that was your number that was assigned to 22 you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And you'll see that if 25 you continue along that line at 75894, I take it that


1 that was the number that is assigned to John Tedball? 2 A: I don't know his number but that 3 makes sense, yes. 4 Q: Certainly his name is there. 5 A: Yes, yes. That would be his number. 6 Q: The dispatch code as you've just 7 confirmed in your testimony is a Code 8 and we have 8 learned from other witnesses as well as confirmed by 9 yourself; that is a standby? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you were notified, it would 12 appear by that document, at 20:56? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So just before 9:00 p.m., is that -- 15 is that right? 16 A: That would be -- yes, that's right. 17 Q: Okay. I take it then, sir, that you 18 were awaiting at the Forest base for certain 19 instructions; and did you receive instructions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what were those instructions? 22 A: To proceed from there to Ipperwash, 23 code 8. 24 Q: And again, the Code 8 is simply to -- 25 A: Standby.


1 Q: -- to standby and when -- to proceed 2 to Ipperwash, were you given a location as to where you 3 would proceed to? 4 A: As I recall, from Ipperwash we got 5 further instructions to go to the MNR parking lot. 6 Q: And can you recall today, sir, where 7 that MNR parking lot is located? 8 A: We went down Ipperwash Road to, I 9 think it was Parkway Drive and proceeded down there, down 10 that road to the front gates of the MNR parking lot. 11 Q: Right, and in relation to the 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park, do you know whereabouts the 13 MNR parking lot is located? 14 A: From that area? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: I wasn't -- for -- I wasn't sure, no. 17 Q: All right. Once you arrive at the 18 MNR parking lot, what happens from there, Mr. Watt? 19 A: From there at the parking lot we were 20 stopped by a police officer, kind of a barricade they had 21 there. And from there he gave us directions to go 22 further in to the MNR parking lot and park our ambulance. 23 Q: Okay, might you just take a moment to 24 describe that barricade; as you put it? 25 A: At this point I can't recall. All I


1 remember is a police officer sitting there. I can't tell 2 you that -- if there was any -- anything else, I can't 3 recall. 4 Q: You recall if there was a police 5 vehicle or any such thing? 6 A: Can't recall. Only thing I can 7 recall as we were pulling in to the MNR parking lot, I 8 noticed quite a few police officers that were dressed in 9 their fatigues, if you want to say. 10 Q: And can you describe what you mean by 11 that, that they were dressed in their fatigues? 12 A: Well, I've never seen a SWAT 13 individual but I would assume that they had flak jackets 14 on, 'cause they were dressed completely black and you 15 could see that they had some kind of armour on or flak 16 jackets, and they also had helmets on. 17 Q: Besides the helmets, was there 18 anything by way of a visor or any such thing that you can 19 recall for us? 20 A: I can't recall that, though I knew 21 they had guns and -- and I didn't know what type or 22 anything like that, that's all I kind of recall. 23 Q: In terms of the guns that you've just 24 mentioned, were they long guns, sidearms? 25 A: Long guns.


1 Q: Right. 2 A: More or less like -- the only thing 3 I've ever seen those were like SWAT rifles. 4 Q: And where would you have seen things 5 like that, Mr. Watt? 6 A: That's when I was pulling into the 7 parking lot with the ambulance. I just noticed quite a 8 few police officers there. 9 Q: And when you say "quite a few police 10 officers", can you give us an estimate as to -- 11 A: Approximately -- 12 Q: -- what you mean? 13 A: -- twenty (20) to thirty (30). I 14 just -- approximately or -- 15 Q: And -- and the approximately twenty 16 (20) to thirty (30) officers that you observed, were they 17 all dressed in the same fashion? 18 A: They were dressed all in black, yes. 19 Q: Okay. Go on and describe what else 20 it is that you can recall? 21 A: There's quite a few vehicles. At 22 some point as we parked our ambulance there, we had a 23 John's -- St. John's ambulance arrived at the scene. 24 Q: Did you have any communication with 25 the St. John's Ambulance?


1 A: No, not at that point. 2 Q: All right, were you accompanied by 3 anybody else when you attended at the MNR parking lot and 4 were directed in from the barricade by a police officer 5 into the lot? 6 A: Say that again. 7 Q: Were you with anybody -- were you 8 with anybody else? Was your vehicle, was 1146 9 accompanied by any other vehicles? 10 A: Yes, 145. 11 Q: Or -- 12 A: 1145. 13 Q: And that would be -- 14 A: That would be Mac Gilpin and Ceasor 15 Diceasor. 16 Q: And they were operating another 17 ambulance? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right, you -- did you follow them 20 into the parking lot or did they follow you up to the MNR 21 parking lot? 22 A: They followed us, behind. 23 Q: All right, and you'd indicated 24 earlier that your partner, John Tedball, was the driver. 25 I take it that he would have taken the instructions,


1 then, from the police officer at the barricade? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Can you recall at all what those 4 instructions were in terms of going into the parking lot? 5 A: Just to follow into the MNR parking 6 lot and park our ambulance. 7 Q: Were you given instructions as to the 8 location of where you ought to park and what to do once 9 you have parked? 10 A: I can't recall exactly. 11 Q: Aside from seeing these various 12 police officers, did you come to any -- any conclusions 13 as to the mood, if I can put it that way? 14 A: The mood was calm. I didn't feel any 15 agitation or anything like that. 16 Q: And in terms of the time do you 17 recall what time that that -- that that was, Mr. Watt? 18 A: No. I don't -- unless you can direct 19 me to -- I don't know exactly that time was. Well it 20 says -- I'm just looking at my notes here that we were 21 approached by Mr. Slomer at 23:10. 22 Q: I -- I take it, sir, that you have no 23 independent memory first of all with respect to the time? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And when you say your "notes," I see


1 that you're looking at some documents from your brief in 2 front of you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And perhaps you might be good enough 5 to tell us what it is that you're looking at; which tab? 6 A: This tab would be Tab 6, the first 7 document, it looks like 933, it's the statement that I 8 made. 9 Q: For the benefit of Counsel, Tab 6 is 10 Inquiry Document 1002615. And that would be -- that 11 would appear to be a statement that -- first of all, do 12 you recognize that statement? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that is a statement that you had 15 provided on September the 8th of 1995 to Detective 16 Constable Martin? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And you've looked at the 19 first line of that statement and it would indicate that 20 you were approached by Mr. Slomer, the TRU team medic at 21 approximately 23:10 hours? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 25 that's a good point. I mean, I know we didn't get very


1 far but at least we got him into position and -- 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and ready 4 to go. So I think we'll adjourn now until Monday morning 5 at -- 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you very much, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- nine 9 o'clock. 10 11 (THE WITNESS RETIRES) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 14 adjourned until Monday, April 25 at 10:30 a.m. 15 16 --- Upon adjourning at 3:30 p.m. 17 18 19 Certified Correct, 20 21 22 ____________________ 23 Dustin Warnock 24 25