1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE CHIEF JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 Hearing on Standing Only 23 24 April 21st, 2004 25


1 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Katherine Hensel ) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 --- Upon Convening at 9:30 a.m. 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 4 everybody. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This Standing 6 and Funding Hearing is now in session. The Honourable Mr. 7 Justice Linden presiding. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I presume 9 everybody has the schedule and knows the order or the 10 sequence that we're going in. The first applicant this 11 morning is the office of the Chief Coroner. 12 MR. AL O'MARRA: Good morning, Mr. 13 Commissioner. I am Al O'Marra and I appear on behalf of the 14 Chief Coroner for the province. In the materials that I've 15 filed, you'll see the applicant's grounds set out in Tab 1. 16 The Chief Coroner seeks standing for both Parts I and II of 17 the Inquiry to assist you in the discharge of your mandate. 18 As has been outlined, your mandate in the 19 Order of Counsel is to inquire into and report on the events 20 surrounding the death of Dudley George and secondly, to make 21 recommendations directed to the avoidance of violence in 22 similar circumstances. 23 As you know, sir, the Chief Coroner's mandate 24 is similar to that of your own although yours is much 25 broader. As well, the Chief Coroner is required to


1 investigate deaths that occur in circumstances as outlined 2 under Section 10 of the Coroner's Act to determine answers to 3 questions posed in Section 31; who died, when, where, how and 4 by what means and that occurred in this case, sir. 5 Coroner Dr. Gary Perkins commenced the 6 Coroner's investigation on notification September 7, 1995 7 when Mr. George had been pronounced dead, that was just after 8 midnight on September 7th, at the Strathroy Middlesex General 9 Hospital. 10 He also authorized, under the authority of the 11 Coroner's Act, the post-mortem examination of Mr. George 12 conducted by Dr. Michael Shrum (phonetic), forensic 13 pathologist, who conducted that examination at the London 14 Health Sciences Centre. And it is likely, sir, that both 15 doctors Perkin and Shrum will be witnesses before this 16 Inquiry. 17 The circumstances and events with respect to 18 the death of Mr. George, I submit to you, can be seen in two 19 (2) parts. The first part are those events that led up to 20 the shooting itself and the second part involves the events 21 in the immediate aftermath of the shooting up until the 22 pronouncement of Mr. George's death. 23 The Special Investigations Unit investigation 24 focussed primarily on the first part which led to criminal 25 prosecution relating to the shooting and as well, there was


1 OPP investigation that related to other criminal matters. 2 The results, certainly, of the SIU 3 investigation were provided to the office of the Chief 4 Coroner for its review and incorporation into its 5 investigation once those criminal matters had been completed. 6 The Chief Coroner, however, Mr. Commissioner, 7 conducted a separate investigation, separate and apart from 8 the SIU and the OPP which focussed on that second part, the 9 time when Mr. George was transported from the scene of the 10 shooting through to the hospital which focussed on the 11 transport, the response to that emergency, the receipt and 12 treatment for his grievous injuries. 13 You heard yesterday an application made on 14 behalf of Mr. Pierre Perry George, brother of the deceased 15 who was involved in the transportation of his brother from 16 the Ipperwash location to the Strathroy Middlesex General 17 Hospital. He raised with the office of the Chief Coroner 18 separate concerns regarding the medical treatment received by 19 his brother as well as emergency services response or lack of 20 response during that time period. 21 In terms of that second part, the review and 22 investigation was conducted under the direction of the 23 regional supervising coroner for southwestern Ontario, Dr. 24 Thomas Wilson, who engaged two (2) investigators from forces 25 separate and apart of the OPP and the SIU.


1 You will see at Tab 4 of the materials a table 2 of contents. In addition to obtaining the statements from 3 various Ontario Provincial Police officers, First Nations 4 persons, ambulance personnel, communication centre personnel 5 as well as hospital staff and personnel, documentation from 6 those various sources was obtained by the Office of the Chief 7 Coroner. 8 You will see, as well, that the Chief Coroner 9 engaged the services of Dr. Andrew McCallum (phonetic) who, 10 at that time, was the Chief of Staff of the McMaster 11 University Medical Centre. He has an expertise in emergency 12 medical response and he reviewed the medical records and the 13 responses that occurred that night. Dr. McCallum is now the 14 regional supervising coroner for Eastern Ontario and I 15 anticipate that you will wish to hear from him and his 16 evidence at this Inquiry. 17 I have been advised by your counsel, Mr. 18 Millar, sir, that you do intend to look at that second part 19 of the circumstances and events; what happened after Mr. 20 George was shot and what happened in Strathroy. 21 The Chief Coroner, of course, wishes to 22 facilitate your Inquiry by offering all of the materials, 23 statements and documents and witnesses at his disposal to 24 assist you in the discharge of your mandate. 25 All of that information would be used in the


1 event of an inquest if it were held. As you know, as well, 2 the Chief Coroner is to assess the benefits of an inquest 3 under Section 20. In order to answer those five (5) 4 questions and to fully inform the public of the circumstances 5 of a person's death, as is part of your mandate, sir, and 6 also whether likely recommendations may be fashioned and 7 directed to the avoidance of death in similar circumstances. 8 Of course, you mandate is broader incorp -- 9 incorporating violence -- violence generally. Two (2) 10 factors militated against or caused delay in determining 11 whether to call an inquest in this particular matter. 12 The first was, of course, outstanding criminal 13 charges. Inquests are not conducted in the face of -- of 14 those. Secondly, the issues that were brought to our 15 attention went beyond the scope of a Coroner's Inquest which 16 are a vital interest to the family of the deceased. Those 17 issues which you, sir, will cover. 18 However, those issues which can be properly 19 covered by an inquest will be covered by this Inquiry and by 20 participating in, one (1), assisting you in the exploration 21 of the facts and, two (2), being in a position to offer 22 recommendations directed to public safety it will diminish, 23 if not eliminate any need for an inquest or certainly that 24 public expense. 25 While the Chief Coroner administers an


1 investigative agency that permits for public inquiries 2 through inquests, he has participated as a party with 3 standing in other judicial inquiries to fulfil his mandate 4 where death has occurred. 5 And he has participated with assisting in the 6 factual exploration as well as, with providing information 7 concerning recommendations. And you will see, sir, for 8 reference at Tab 3, the Walkerton Report, in part, where at 9 page 89 Mr. Justice Dennis O'Connor granted the Chief Coroner 10 full standing at that Inquiry, and at page 499 where he 11 acknowledged that many of the Part I recommendations were 12 offered by the Chief Coroner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He was also 14 quite complimentary? 15 MR. AL O'MARRA: Yes, he was, sir, I think. 16 I have provided to your counsel a summary of the Chief 17 Coroner's investigation and my office is in the process of 18 coordinating and copying all of that documentation now, in 19 order to turn over to your counsel for use at this inquiry. 20 So, in sum, sir, I would sub -- submit that 21 the Chief Coroner is seeking standing, one (1), because there 22 will be witnesses called who were directly involved in the 23 investigation who acted under the Chief Coroner's 24 supervision, direction and control. 25 Secondly, there is material information that


1 the Chief Coroner has to offer into the circumstances and 2 events leading to Mr. George's death and, thirdly, the 3 overlapping mandates which will render, frankly, any desire 4 for an inquest, redundant. Those are my submissions, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 6 much, Mr. O'Marra. Thank you very kindly. 7 MR. AL O'MARRA: Thank you, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, I take it 9 you're not making any application for funding? You didn't 10 say anything so I presume you're not. 11 MR. AL O'MARRA: No, we're not, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. The next 13 applicant is Debbie Hutton, I believe, yes, and Heenan -- 14 Heenan Blaikie. Mr. David Roebuck, are you putting on behalf 15 of David Roebuck so, on behalf of Debbie Hutton? 16 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Yes, it's Anna Perschy. 17 Good morning Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good Morning. 19 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Yes, it's Anna Perschy for 20 the Applicant Debbie Hutton. 21 Debbie Hutton, sir, was the Executive 22 Assistant in the office of the Premier at the time of the 23 events in question in this Inquiry. Her exact title, in 24 fact, was Executive Assistant Issues Management. 25 In that capacity, Ms. Hutton communicated with


1 the Premier and other senior advisors in the office of the 2 Premier regarding the protest at the Ipperwash Provincial 3 Park. 4 As a representative of the Premier's office, 5 she also intended Inter-Ministerial Committee and other 6 government meetings at which the situation at the Ipperwash 7 Provincial Park and possible government responses to it were 8 discussed. 9 As you know, sir, there have been several 10 prior proceedings in the courts with respect to the matter 11 which is now the subject of this Inquiry. Some were criminal 12 cases, one of which I understand resulted in the conviction 13 of an OPP Officer of criminal negligence causing death. 14 There was also a civil action brought by the 15 family of Dudley George against the Queen in Right of Ontario 16 and a number of individual defendants including former 17 Premier Harris. 18 One of the specific allegations against the 19 former Premier was that he ordered the Tactical Response Unit 20 of the OPP to use force, including deadly force, against the 21 protesters. That allegation which has been strenuously 22 denied, has been repeated publically in various forms. 23 On a number of occasions, in Provincial 24 Legislature, and in the media, there has been speculation 25 that the previous Government interfered in -- in the OPP's


1 handling of the protest at Ipperwash and that the 2 Government's direction of the OPP resulted in the death of 3 Dudley George. 4 As you know, sir, the civil action never 5 proceeded to trial and no court made -- made any factual 6 determination with respect to that very serious allegation. 7 While Debbie Hutton was not a main Defendant 8 in the civil proceeding, her actions were an issue in the 9 civil litigation. When the Plaintiffs examined former 10 Premier Harris for discovery, they requested that he make 11 inquiries of Ms. Hutton. Those inquiries focus on comments 12 attributed to Ms. Hutton and certain notes that we understand 13 had been taken by part -- by participants at the 14 Inter-Ministerial meetings which Ms. Hutton had attended as a 15 representative of the office of the Premier. 16 In the Provincial Legislature, members of the 17 Opposition Party, on several occasions, asked questions 18 regarding those comments and what information Ms. Hutton 19 provided to the former Premier and what direction he gave 20 her. However, at that time the civil action was still before 21 the courts. 22 In calls for public inquiry, Members of the 23 Opposition specifically called for Ms. Hutton to come forward 24 and relay the chain of information that allegedly went from 25 former Premier Harris to her, to the Inter-Ministerial


1 Committee and finally to the OPP. 2 Clearly Ms. Hutton will be a witness at this 3 Inquiry. What she was told and when, what she knew, what she 4 didn't know, what the Government's concerns were, what she 5 communicated and to whom, these are all issues which will 6 likely form part of this Inquiry. 7 However, she is more than a witness. Debbie 8 Hutton's reputation has been affected. There has been 9 intense scrutiny and speculation in the media surrounding the 10 events regarding Ipperwash and her name has been publically 11 associated with this matter. 12 The very serious allegations that the previous 13 Government somehow interfered with the OPP, with the result 14 that a person died, have been reported by the media on a 15 number of occasions. I found over thirty (30) articles 16 expressly referring to Debbie Hutton in connection with this 17 matter; and I'd like to refer to just two (2) of them by way 18 of example. 19 I have copies for you if that would of 20 assistance. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: One (1) article is an


1 article from the Globe and Mail. It's dated July 31, 1997 2 and it's entitled: 3 "Notes Reveal Harris' Stand on Ipperwash. 4 Ontario Premier said Native Protestors 5 Should be Removed from Park, Minutes Say." 6 In that article, the Globe and Mail referred 7 to some of the comments attributed to Ms. Hutton expressly in 8 notes from the Inter-Ministerial Committee meetings. The 9 article then quoted Mr. Klippenstein, who was then council 10 for the plaintiffs in the civil action, in regards to the 11 documents and Ms. Hutton's comments. 12 And it's highlighted. It's on the second 13 page. 14 "It's the clearest evidence yet --" 15 fourth paragraph down: 16 "-- that officials from the Premier on down 17 decided to bypass negotiations and order 18 action that was bound to bring about 19 bloodshed", said Murray Klippenstein. 20 "It's amazing", he said of the papers. 21 "they suggest the Premier's personal 22 involvement and that the Premier directed a 23 no negotiation strategy of violence." 24 I note that Mr. Klippenstein is now Counsel 25 for some of the applicants for standing in this Inquiry and


1 submit that he or others will likely be advo -- advocating 2 similar views before you during the course of this Inquiry. 3 There's another article which also refers, 4 expressly, to Ms. Hutton and this one is from last year. 5 It's dated September the 6th, 2003. It's from the Canada 6 News wire and it's entitled "Ipperwash disgrace demands 7 Inquiry". 8 "The conservative --" 9 It starts as follows: 10 "The conservative government's deception 11 and dishonesty over the death of Dudley 12 George demands a full and public inquiry, 13 NDP leader Howard Hampton said today. The 14 conservatives are hiding the truth about 15 Dudley George's death to protect Mike 16 Harris and Deb Hutton, Hampton said, 17 standing in front of a Bay Street building 18 housing the office of the Attorney General, 19 Ontario's top justice official. There's 20 been no justice from this office for the 21 family of Dudley George. For eight (8) 22 years they've been kept in the dark about 23 who was ultimately responsible for his 24 death." 25 While asking for a public Inquiry in order to


1 determine what happened, in my submission, it's clear that 2 there's already been conclusory statements made in public 3 about who was responsible. 4 Similar to the views I've just referenced, 5 will likely be advocated before you during this Inquiry and 6 given the foregoing, I submit that Debbie Hutton's personal 7 reputation may be significantly affected by the evidence 8 given and the submissions made at this Inquiry and 9 consequently by findings or recommendations of the 10 Commissioner. 11 In my submission, therefore, Debbie Hutton has 12 a direct and substantial interest in the subject matter of 13 Part I of this Inquiry. Fairness, in my submission, requires 14 that Ms. Hutton have a full opportunity to participate in 15 these proceedings in regards to any evidence or submissions 16 that characterize or otherwise refer to her involvement in 17 the events in question. 18 Debbie Hutton also represents a distinct and 19 important perspective with respect to the subject matter of 20 Part I of this Inquiry given her position in the Premier's 21 office at the time and her attendance as a representative of 22 that office at the Inter-Ministerial Committee meetings which 23 dealt with the Ipperwash issue. 24 Accordingly, on both of these grounds, I 25 respectfully submit on behalf of Ms. Hutton that she be


1 granted standing at Part I of this Inquiry. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is Ms. Hutton 3 not seeking standing with respect to Part II? 4 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: No. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or funding? 6 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: No. Just -- just Part I. 7 Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 9 much, Ms. Perschy. Thank you very kindly. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we might, 14 simply for the purpose of those who weren't here yesterday, 15 advise the participants that your decision, as you announced 16 yesterday, will be reserved with respect to all of the 17 applications. Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that all 19 right? Do I need to say it again or has everybody heard it? 20 That's fine. Thank you very much. Thank you. 21 Okay, we are now moving right along again. 22 We've got another -- another binder here and the applicant is 23 Jeffrey Bangs and Paul Rhodes; McCarthy Tetrault, Mr. William 24 McDowell. Are you Mr. McDowell? 25 MR. WILLIAM MCDOWELL: Yes, sir. Good


1 morning. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 3 sir. 4 MR. WILLIAM MCDOWELL: I am seeking standing 5 on behalf of Messrs. Bangs and Rhodes. And much of what I 6 would have covered with you has been covered by My Friend on 7 behalf of Ms. Hutton. 8 Mr. Bangs was the Senior Advisor to the 9 Minister of Natural Resources during the material time. Mr. 10 Rhodes was -- that's the Book of Authorities I've just handed 11 up to you, Mr. Commissioner. 12 Mr. Rhodes was a senior media advisor -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. WILLIAM MCDOWELL: -- to the Premier and 15 it is for you to decide but I anticipate that you will grant 16 standing to Mr. Hodgson, the Minister of Natural Resources. 17 Mr. Hodgson, in the scheme of things, one would expect, will 18 indicate that he acted on the advice provided by his 19 officials and perhaps principally Mr. Bangs. 20 The interest of Mr. Bangs in this matter is 21 really limited to the crucial weekend of September 4th to 6th 22 of '95. In his case, he attended quite a number of meetings 23 during that weekend as the delegate of the Minister including 24 the inter-departmental meeting or meetings to which My Friend 25 has referred.


1 Mr. Bangs desire to have standing is in part 2 prompted by the previous civil action. In that action, the 3 George family was represented by able and experienced 4 counsel, Mr. Klippenstein. Mr. Klippenstein exerted a 5 reasonable amount of focus on the actions of Mr. Bangs. 6 Although there are no allegations made against him personally 7 in the statement of claim, in the undertakings process and so 8 on he was the subject of a considerable number of inquiries, 9 most of them focussing on the question of what he did in 10 relation to the meetings in question during the weekend and 11 what information he provided to Mr. Hodgson, what Mr. 12 Hodgson's directions to him were and so on. 13 Now, if I could just touch briefly on the 14 cases before I get to my submissions on behalf of Mr. Rhodes 15 which will be much more limited. I wanted first to turn to 16 Tab 3, the Consortium Developments case and then just to turn 17 up paragraph 41 within that case. This is Justice Binnie 18 (phonetic) dealing with a Section 100 inquiry pursuant to the 19 Municipal Act. And at paragraph 41 he made a number of 20 comments, that's page 33, paragraph 41 -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 22 MR. WILLIAM MCDOWELL: -- which I think are 23 apt in relation to public inquiries, generally. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 25 MR. WILLIAM MCDOWELL: He says:


1 "I want to emphasize that the concerns of 2 individuals caught up in judicial inquiries 3 are real and understandable. Unlike an 4 ordinary lawsuit or prosecution, where 5 there has been preliminary disclosure and 6 the trial proceeds at a measured pace in 7 accordance of well-exam -- well-established 8 procedures, a judicial inquiry often 9 resembles a giant, multi-party examination 10 for discovery, where there are no 11 pleadings, minimal pre-hearing disclosure 12 --" 13 And -- and I'm skipping ahead: 14 "-- and relaxed rules of evidence. The 15 hearings will frequently unfold in the 16 glare of pub -- of publicity." 17 And then moving ahead, he says: 18 "The inquiry necessarily moves in a convoy 19 carrying participants of widely different 20 interests, motives, information, 21 involvement and exposure." 22 And on the next page he makes the statement 23 which, of course, you will find yourself emphasizing as this 24 proceeds, that these are not adversarial inquiries and the 25 way that governments defend calling inquiries is by saying


1 there's no lisp between the participants. 2 Well, what I'm asking on behalf of both of 3 these individuals is to form a small part of this convoy; 4 that we won't be in the convoy very much, I suspect. We, 5 frankly, have a heightened interest in being here, having 6 regard to the way that the civil action proceeded which gives 7 us a -- a preview of how this procedure before you, Mr. 8 Commissioner, may unfold. 9 Now, in relation to Mr. Rhodes, once again 10 it's for you to decide but I anticipate that you will give 11 standing to Mr. Harris. 12 Mr. Rhodes was involved in the strategic 13 discussions through that weekend in the dissemination of the 14 position of the Premier and of the government after the 15 events of that weekend. If I might say so, in his case, the 16 way that the civil action unfolded very much prompts our 17 request for standing before you. 18 We've said in the written materials, both -- 19 and we have both these individuals, that we intend to use 20 that standing sparingly if granted. But if it isn't granted 21 now, I suspect we'll find ourselves in mid-stream back here 22 seeking standing and I'd rather be granted standing at the 23 outset and have the ability to obtain the disclosure of 24 documents in advance and Will Says in advance. And you may 25 see me here or Mr. Berbander (phonetic) here for very brief


1 cameo appearances on the way through but I don't anticipate 2 that those will be lengthy. 3 Lastly, of course, the rights which I could 4 exercise as Counsel, should standing be granted, are limited 5 by a degree of interest of each of these individuals. So 6 we're not intending to clutter up the proceedings before you 7 and undertake not to do so. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are Mr. Bangs 9 and Mr. Rhodes still in government service or are they 10 private citizens? 11 MR. WIL MCDOWELL: They are private citizens. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They make no 13 application for funding at this time. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 15 much. 16 MR. WIL MCDOWELL: Thank you, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 I don't think anybody's used to lawyers taking 19 less time than we've allocated so this is -- we're up to the 20 Municipality of Lambton Shores; Mckenzie Lake lawyer, Mr. 21 Nash. Sir, how are you? 22 MR. DAVID NASH: Thank you, sir. I'm going 23 to make a brief comment and then His Worship Kevin Ivy would 24 like to make a comment about standing and funding. 25 We're here for the same purpose as everyone


1 else. The Municipality is in a unique position. It's the 2 only -- it's the epicentre of all of these events. And as 3 tragic as the events are that you -- you are here to focus 4 on, the Municipality is a very integral part of all of that. 5 So, it's more than just the physical act of 6 the -- of the tragic death. There is a before, a happening 7 and an after; all of which the Municipality have a great deal 8 to participate in and a great deal to offer to this 9 particular Commission. 10 Also, it's felt that the residents of the 11 Municipality have vested their confidence in the 12 Municipality. You can see that by the number of people who 13 have come forward. The fact is there aren't a lot of 14 interest groups here and I think we can thank the -- the hard 15 work of the elected officials to be able to gather together 16 the municipal interests under one (1) -- under one (1) 17 umbrella. 18 They do represent the interests in a very 19 broad way but they also are the group that will probably be 20 the conduit through which residents are comfortable in 21 participating in this proceeding. 22 In order to get the broad picture, residents, 23 information, knowledge, the feelings of the residents are 24 really required in order to give the -- the full picture in 25 both parts of this Inquiry. And it is respectfully submitted


1 that those residents will feel much more comfortable if they 2 know that the Municipality has standing and funding with 3 respect to that particular aspect of the case. 4 There is a great deal to be added to this 5 Commission. And we know that there is a general tendency, 6 with respect to funding issues, to look at a Municipality and 7 say, hey, which should we fund you; and that's why the Mayor 8 is hear to speak to that particular matter. 9 This is a unique situation. The town of 10 Bosanquet, at the time of the event, had forty-nine hundred 11 (4900) residents in it but it was a lit -- a Municipality. 12 And one of the issues that this Commission, we sub -- submit, 13 needs to hear, is how that Municipality was included or 14 excluded historically from all of the proceedings, both with 15 respect to participation and both with respect to financial 16 issues; and also the issue of the impact on the Municipality, 17 of all of these events, both before and after and how the 18 people in this Municipality have been affected financially 19 and how this particular Commission is going to affect them 20 financially, both before and after. 21 So, I'm going to ask -- and hand the matter 22 over to His Worship, the Mayor because we know that the -- 23 there's an initial feeling here about funding, that we need 24 to stress with you and we need to stress with the Government. 25 Thank you.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 2 much. 3 MR. KEVIN IVEY: Good morning Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning to 6 you. 7 MR. KEVIN IVEY: Welcome to Lambton Shores 8 and the Community of Forest. Just to give you -- and I'm 9 sure most people know, that Lambton Shores is a amalgamation 10 of five (5) municipalities, which includes the -- the town of 11 Bosanquet where Ipperwash was located. 12 The area goes from Grand Bend in the North, 13 down to Forest here and then East into Arcona; and Kettle 14 Point and the army base and the former provincial park are 15 all surrounded by our community. 16 I'd also like to just state for the record 17 that we enjoy what we think are great relations with our 18 native neighbours. With respect to Kettle Point, we've had 19 many situations where we worked together and one as recent as 20 joint press conference, some two (2) weeks ago. 21 And in the case of the natives at the Camp, 22 our community services people work with them regularly to 23 deal with issues that impact on both of us. 24 I'll touch briefly on the request for 25 standing. To a large extent, outside circumstances or events


1 dictated what happened here and they happened within our 2 borders and at the end of the day, everybody goes home and 3 we're here. 4 And we think that we should be at the table 5 for that reason. We think it's important that you understand 6 what the Municipality went through and what its area 7 residents went through during the time of that event. 8 And I think, again, we're the ones that can 9 best do that. We are a level of government and historically, 10 both the Province and the Federal Government had tended to 11 ignore us. At least, that's what we feel. 12 I think you'll find evidence, as we go through 13 this, where as much as ten (10) or eleven (11) years ago we 14 were in constant contact with both the Federal Government and 15 Provincial Government with a variety of things that took 16 place and we were never at the table. 17 And I believe that if part of this process is 18 to identify procedures to -- that be put in place so that 19 this doesn't happen again, I think it's important that all 20 levels of government be there. 21 Hopefully this is a template to ensure that 22 process is -- that this isn't repeated. So, I guess in a -- 23 I could say that I'm hear for all other municipalities that, 24 in the future, might find themselves in this very unfortunate 25 situation.


1 We believe we're the local experts and, as Mr. 2 Nash had indicated, we don't have a lot of local groups who 3 have applied for standing here; there's one (1) after us. 4 But we feel that we have a very good communications system. 5 We communicate, for example, with the Centre 6 Ipperwash Community Association and we are prepared and will 7 commit to communicate with groups to ensure that their points 8 are brought forward. 9 If I may touch a bit on funding. We have had 10 some -- a couple of situations in the past where we have -- 11 an issue has been brought up between our native neighbours 12 and the Federal -- Federal Government. We currently have 13 outstanding, an issue in the area. We've incurred some legal 14 costs. 15 We were brought into this lawsuit just because 16 we're there. We're physically part of the area. And this 17 car -- this went all the way to the Supreme Court. So we've 18 incurred significant capital cost -- operating costs, so to 19 speak; I call them a capital cost and I guess maybe we'll get 20 some of them back. 21 But, we've been through this before and we, as 22 a community, we paid. We also feel that we've paid quite 23 dearly over the last eight (8) years since then. We've had 24 businesses severely impacted. We had situations, as a result 25 of this tragic event, where people coming across the border


1 were informed that you didn't want to go to that area. 2 We're a tourism area. And we were -- and this 3 impacted a number of our businesses and we'd be happy to 4 supply you with some information on that. The local people 5 in this area found their assessed values of their property 6 have been severely affected. 7 So, that obviously impacts them, but it also 8 meant that the greater area outside of Ipperwash also was 9 impacted because they had to pick up the higher -- a higher 10 proportion of the local taxes in order for us to provide 11 service. 12 We don't have any money in the budget. We 13 like to think that we run a pretty tight ship here but we are 14 a small rural municipality, and if I can just give you some 15 sort of perspective; if it's going to cost us, say, two 16 hundred thousand dollars ($200,000) to be -- have standing 17 here as we go through the whole process, that's going to man 18 -- mean something in the order of three and a half (3 1/2) 19 maybe as much as 4 percent of our local budget -- of our 20 local tax dollar levy and that's quite significant for a 21 community of our size. 22 That's my submission, Mr. Commissioner. Okay? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 24 much. 25 MR. DAVID NASH: If I might just wrap that


1 up, just so that the Commission is aware; the -- there was a 2 lawsuit where the municipality is involved, it's called the 3 West Ipperwash lawsuit. It involved a preliminary review by 4 Justice Colleen (phonetic) who dealt with some of the issues 5 and they were dealt with on a summary judgment application. 6 But, the municipality was not allowed out. 7 The Municipality ended up in the Supreme Court of Canada in 8 the -- in the particular case. 9 The matter, in the long run, has resulted in 10 some consultations and there is a settlement agreement that 11 is pending with the two (2) levels of government but in the 12 end, the Municipality had to fund all of that and although 13 they will receive some funding back, they'll never -- as 14 usual, you never get it all back. 15 When you go back to 1995, the Municipality 16 could not afford to participate in the legal matters that 17 were before them so, they held fundraising activities in the 18 municipality so, that they could actually participate from a 19 legal point of view. Time after time the municipality raised 20 the issue of funding with the Federal and the Provincial 21 Governments and they never even received an ear from the 22 Federal or Provincial Governments. 23 I was in attendance with the Minister -- with 24 the Federal Minister of -- of Indian Affairs in Ottawa with 25 the mayor of the time, pleading with the -- with the Minister


1 for funding, saying it's not fair and we hear -- we -- we 2 didn't even get a letter back. Even the request that got 3 made never even got responded to. 4 So, this Municipality has faced, since 1992 5 and you'll see the record that is presented by the 6 Municipality in this particular Commission, the Municipality 7 will show a written record and will show verbal records of a 8 request, of a plea to the -- to levels of government for 9 participation. 10 Things were going on that they knew nothing 11 about; activities were taking place. The only information 12 they could receive was actually from the -- from the Kettle 13 Point Band with whom they had a good relationship with. 14 The frustrations that you will hear about at 15 this particular hearing are frustrations of our native -- of 16 our native community, are the -- the frustrations you're also 17 going to hear about from this particular community. They -- 18 although they're different and no one is even attempting to 19 put the municipal frustrations in the same category as the 20 aboriginal frustrations. 21 The frustrations are real and they are 22 frustrating to the extent that they meant dollar-wise to the 23 municipal officials here, to the people, an extreme cost to 24 them; emotionally, with respect to their lives but 25 financially right in the pocketbook.


1 They've lost value in their homes and for us 2 to have to go to them now and say to participate in this 3 particular hearing, we're going to raise your taxes to do 4 this, is a really affront to them because we know before this 5 Commission that a number of the people who were formerly 6 elected officials are all being funded differently in 7 different ways. 8 You're not being asked, we sat here yesterday, 9 there's a number of people who say we're not requesting 10 funding. Well, they're not paying out of their own pocket. 11 These people are. 12 The residents here pay taxes Federally, 13 provincially and municipally. The tax base is spread across 14 the country. The whole country is paying for some of this in 15 terms of any Federal participation. The whole province is 16 paying for this in terms of provincial participation and now 17 we have to go to our residents and say, oh, you have to pay 18 for all of this just like any other citizen but by the way, 19 you're going to have to foot the bill. 20 It's not fair and so, we're asking this 21 Commission to make the plea that we've been making for ten 22 (10) year -- more than ten (10) years to make the plea and 23 make the recommendation that the Municipality be fully funded 24 for complete standing throughout these procedures because 25 they are an integral part and they will -- they will play an


1 integral role in assisting the Commission in providing -- 2 providing the services required. So thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have there been 4 only -- any overtures for funding in the last six (6) months 5 or year since the Government has changed? 6 MR. DAVID NASH: Well, not -- not in the pro 7 -- not on the provincial scene because -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 9 MR. DAVID NASH: -- there's been no 10 opportunity to do that. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The cycles 12 haven't come up -- the funding cycles or -- 13 MR. DAVID NASH: Wha -- no. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 MR. DAVID NASH: All you hear at this point in 16 time is there's no money in the budget for anything and, of 17 course, you've got a new budget year starting on April 1st. 18 With respect to actually going back to them and everything 19 else, this Commission, it was felt that the Municipality 20 needs a little bit of direction in terms of how to 21 participate because the Municipality felt once this was 22 announced -- remember that this -- that this Inquiry was 23 promised by the incoming government. 24 So, at that point the Municipality, 25 recognizing the importance of its relationship with its --


1 its native neighbours and recognizing its responsibilities to 2 not come forward in -- in any way because they felt that they 3 should work through the Commission. 4 So, rightfully or wrongfully, this is new. 5 This -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We may have to do 7 some more talking about this to figure this out. 8 MR. DAVID NASH: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand why 10 you may need some help to participate and I understand why 11 you should participate but I'm not sure that the way to do it 12 is through the Commission. So, we may have to do some more 13 discussion. 14 MR. DAVID NASH: We would -- we would love 15 some assistance and we would love the fact that perhaps we 16 might get an ear that would listen and we feel you have the 17 clout that we've never had. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 19 much, Mr. Nash, for your submission. 20 MR. DAVID NASH: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We are now up to 22 -- we're going a little faster again than we thought. Do you 23 -- do you want to take a break early? It might not be a bad 24 idea, I think. We're obviously not going to have a difficult 25 time getting through our list today.


1 So, I think rather than rush through and 2 finish very early we'll take a break now if that's all right 3 with everybody? It's almost a quarter after 10:00. We'll 4 take a fifteen (15) or a twenty (20) minute break. Thank you 5 very much. 6 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 7 Hearing will recess for twenty (20) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 10:14 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 10:35 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: Order. All rise please. 13 This Hearing is now resumed. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 15 Let me just get my bearings. Sir, the applicant is the Union 16 of Ontario Indians. 17 MR. EUGENE DOREY: No. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm sorry. 19 MR. EUGENE DOREY: We are the -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm jumping 21 ahead of myself. 22 MR. EUGENE DOREY: -- Centre Ipperwash 23 Community Association. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Centre Ipperwash 25 Community Association. And you're Eugene Dorey?


1 MR. EUGENE DOREY: Yes, I am. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 3 MR. EUGENE DOREY: I am the Chair of the 4 Centre Ipperwash Community Association, also known as CICA. 5 I am speaking on behalf of the CICA Association. Should our 6 association be granted standing for Part II, as requested, 7 and I am unable to attend the proceedings, our secretary, 8 Joyce McMaster, will appear in my place. 9 The Centre Ipperwash Community Association was 10 formed in July of 1993 to represent the -- represent the area 11 bounded by Army Camp Road, also known as the 4th -- 10th 12 Concession on the east, Lake Huron on the north, West 13 Ipperwash Road on the west, also known as the 14th Concession 14 and Highway 21 to the south. 15 Prior to 1993 there had been informal 16 organizations in the area. CICA is the first to be 17 incorporated. We are the people directly affected prior to 18 and following the events of September '95. The Association 19 represents both year round and seasonal residents. 20 CICA is an organization formed to investigate 21 and pursue property owner matters that affect the members; a 22 collective voice in addressing these issues with elected and 23 appointed officials and are formed provide information to the 24 members of the Association. 25 Over the past eleven (11) years we have worked


1 to improve the area with the municipal authorities, and the 2 Ministry of Natural Resources. 3 As the Municipality said, they were left out 4 of the loop, so were we. As the organization for the -- the 5 residents of Ipperwash, we believe we should be also included 6 with the Municipality. 7 As in immediate result of the events of 8 September 1995, property values plummeted, business suffered, 9 tourism -- tourism declined. Owners had financial problems 10 with their insurance companies and mortgage companies. 11 I am happy to report the good progress has -- 12 has continued to be made concerning the above-mentioned 13 issues. The Ipperwash area has become, once again, a 14 desirable place to live and to visit. 15 In requesting standing for Part II of the 16 Inquiry, CICA believes it has a direct and substantial 17 interest in the policy issues raised by the events of 18 September 1995. Because the residents of the area will be 19 affected by decisions made, CICA represents the interests and 20 perspectives of the people who will live with the policies 21 which are adopted. 22 With respect to the funding, if a member is 23 required to travel outside the Forest area, then we would be 24 requesting, for any of these, we would requesting a funding. 25 That is our submission, thank you.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How large is the 2 Community Association? How -- how many members are there? 3 MR. EUGENE DOREY: A hundred and twenty-five 4 (125). 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A hundred and 6 twenty-five (125). 7 MR. EUGENE DOREY: Yes. There's only allowed 8 one (1) per household of the area. So, that cuts down on our 9 numbers. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 11 much. 12 MR. EUGENE DOREY: Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Now -- yes Sir. Make 17 sure I'm on the right one. You're the Union of Ontario 18 Indians? 19 MR. FRED BELLEFEULLE: Good morning, Mr. 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Thank you and that's 22 the correct name or title is it? 23 MR. FRED BELLEFEULLE: That's correct. 24 I'm here on -- here on behalf of the Union of 25 Ontario Indians and I'd like to first off acknowledge the


1 Elder Lillian for her presence here today, as well as thank 2 her for the opening that she conducted yesterday. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry 4 Counsel, your name is -- is? 5 MR. FRED BELLEFEULLE: Fred Bellefeulle. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Bellefeulle. 7 Thank you Sir. 8 MR. FRED BELLEFEULLE: The Union of Ontario 9 Indians requests that standing be granted for Part II of the 10 Inquiry. 11 I'd like to discuss, first of all, who or what 12 is the Union of Ontario Indians. 13 The Union of Ontario Indians Inc. which we -- 14 we refer to the as the Union, is the oldest political native 15 organization in Ontario. It's roots can be traced back to 16 the mid-1800s. During that time, the -- the organization was 17 known as the Grand General Indian Council of Ontario. 18 In 1949 the association was reorganized, 19 renamed and incorporated as the Union of Ontario Indians. By 20 this time it represented most of the First Nations in 21 Ontario. 22 By 1972, three (3) other political territorial 23 organizations developed in Ontario and at present there are 24 forty-two (42) First Nations that are members of the 25 corporation.


1 The Union of Ontario Indians is not a creation 2 of the Federal or Provincial Government or of the Indian Act. 3 It's a corporation that was created by the voluntary volition 4 of those forty-two (42) member -- First Nation members. So, 5 with that, it comes with a lot of legitimacy. 6 Geographically, the territory that the 7 membership spans runs from communities in the North, Fort 8 William First Nation, along the north shore of Lake Superior, 9 Lake Nipigon, the north shore of Lake Huron, Manitoulin 10 Island, east to the Algonquins of Pikwaganagan which is 11 Golden Lake, through the south-central part of Ontario 12 including the communities of Chippewas of Aammjiwnaang which 13 -- which is also known as the Chippewas of Sarnia, First 14 Nation. 15 Now, the mandate of the Union of Ontario 16 Indians; there's two (2) general functions that it's mandated 17 to undertake and that's collective political advocacy and 18 secretariat support, by that I mean things such as policy 19 development in specific areas. 20 The Union of Ontario Indians undertakes 21 activities in relation to policing, treaty research, self 22 government negotiations, public and media relations and 23 issues concerning inter-governmental affairs. 24 That's bac -- that's the background on our 25 organization and to address why the union should be granted


1 standing in Part II, firstly I'd like to submit that we've -- 2 the Union of Ontario Indians is sufficiently affected by Part 3 II of the Inquiry. 4 The reason why is because often the Union of 5 Ontario Indians is called upon by its First Nation membership 6 to organize grassroots advocacy such as rallies, protests, 7 demonstrations, marches and other forms of activity that have 8 direct First Nation involvement on very controversial issues. 9 An example of this was the invo -- our 10 involvement in the Mock's (phonetic) fuel transportation 11 across northern Ontario where marches and rallies were 12 organized. 13 Although we facilitate these types of 14 activities, we prefer to focus on processes that avoid 15 potential conflict. The union has been an instrumental in 16 facilitating peaceful forms of advocacy on many of the most 17 pressing issues of First Nations, including issues that deal 18 with law enforcement, policing and government. 19 The kind of activities that we've undertaken 20 was the development and establishment of the Anishinabek 21 Police Services, the development and establishment of the 22 Ontario First Nations resource management council -- council 23 which is a joint discussion table between the Ministry of 24 Natural Resources and our member First Nations to address 25 issues such as hunting, fishing and other types of issues


1 dealing with resources and the whole purpose of this round 2 table is to try to resolve issues before they have the 3 potential of becoming potentially violent. 4 The -- the other activities that we undertake 5 include the Ontario Canada Anishinabek roundtable on health, 6 which is another table to address First Nat -- Nation issues 7 in a productive and practical way. 8 The Union of Ontario Indians mediates between 9 First Nations and governments on various issues including 10 election disputes, Casino Rama issues, third-party what -- 11 which is referred to as third-party management issues. We 12 mediate internal First Nation disapu -- disputes and 13 disagreements. We're involved in self-government 14 negotiations on behalf of member communities. We've been 15 involved in the Police Services Commission of Ontario. We've 16 also developed the Union of Ontario Indians and Indian 17 Affairs round table which is a forum to discuss policy issues 18 and make positive change for First Nation communities. 19 We also created the Niijii Circle of -- of 20 Friends which is an initiative in public education. It's a 21 proactive innovative program that aims to strengthen 22 relationships between natives and non-natives to promote 23 mutual respect and understanding of the shared history. 24 We conduct cross-cult -- cultural training for 25 government. We organize and implement meaningful discussion


1 around constitutional dip -- amendments in the '80s. 2 The Union has been involved for many years in 3 addressing the types of policy issues that will be addressed 4 in Part II of the Inquiry; as such will be affected by any 5 policy, procedural or legislative -- potential legislative 6 change that may result from this Inquiry. 7 Secondly, does the Union of Ontario Indians 8 represent distinct ascertainable interests? I respectfully 9 submit that we do. The Union of Ontario Indians represents 10 distinct and ascertainable interests primarily by the fact 11 that many of our First Nation communities are small in 12 population and lack specific capacity to be involved in 13 processes such as this. 14 When the events occurred in September of 1996, 15 when Dudley George was -- was killed, all First Nations in 16 Ontario were affected. First Nations were shocked. They 17 were scared. And the Union, if granted standing, would like 18 to participate in Part II to assist in the healing process 19 and potentially bring some closure to this issue for those 20 communities. 21 The second part of my submission deals with an 22 application for funding. It's a modest request. If the 23 Commission should see fit to approve the Union of Ontario 24 Indians for Part II, the Union proposes that a modest amount 25 be used for attendance at the Hearings, as well as


1 consultations on -- with our communities. 2 We have very strong communication systems in 3 place for our membership. They include two (2) general 4 assemblies a year; regional meetings, as well as the 5 Anishnabek News which is a monthly periodical that goes to 6 all communities. We have a 1-800 number just to speak to all 7 our membership and we have our website, e-mail, the standard 8 forms of communication. And that goes to the -- towards the 9 -- funding application. 10 The Union of Ontario Indians, of course, is a 11 non-profit organization. They're project or program based. 12 As such, a lot of the funds that they do receive are geared 13 specifically towards deliverables on projects or programs, so 14 there's not -- there's no money to -- to do -- to participate 15 in activities such as this otherwise. 16 To conclude and summarize, the Union of 17 Ontario Indians will be sufficiently affected by the issues 18 that are raised by the Inquiry. We have historical and 19 practical experience necessary to contribute to -- in a 20 valuable way to the Inquiry and we represent distinct 21 ascertainable interests. 22 As such, we respectfully request standing and 23 funding be granted in Part II so that we can effectively 24 contribute to the healing process that this Inquiry involves. 25 And subject to any questions, those are my submissions.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What -- what are 2 the other sources of funding for the Union? Where does the 3 principle funding come from? 4 MR. FRED BELLEFEUILLE: It's all project or 5 program based. So, for example, we have self-government 6 negotiations that we operate on behalf of our membership and 7 that's Federal funding. And it's specifically geared to 8 having so many negotiations per year, support for that, legal 9 support, research support, community consultations. 10 Other funding includes aboriginal healing and 11 wellness for our health department. Other funding includes 12 treaty research support under the specific claims process and 13 that's Federal funding. 14 Indian Affairs, what they call "political, 15 territorial organization funding" and that goes towards 16 communications, for example, the Niiji circle, public 17 education initiative that we have. They contribute towards 18 that. As well as other types of programs of that type. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there any 20 core funding? 21 MR. FRED BELLEFEUILLE: There is core funding 22 for the organization. That's for -- for -- to research 23 policy issues, to a certain extent. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where does that 25 come from? Just what source?


1 MR. FRED BELLEFEUILLE: Indian Affairs. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Indian Affairs? 3 MR. FRED BELLEFEUILLE: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Federal. That's 5 fine. 6 MR. FRED BELLEFEUILLE: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 8 much. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 13 sir. Perhaps you would describe who you are and who you're 14 appearing on behalf of. 15 MR. ROGER TOWNSEND: Good morning, Mr. 16 Commissioner. My name is Roger Townsend. I'm appearing for 17 the Chippewas of Nawash Unceded First Nation. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 MR. ROGER TOWNSEND: The Chippewas of Nawash 20 are applying for standing and for funding in Part II only of 21 this Inquiry. And we've set out why in the application in 22 the package that you're looking at right now. 23 Generally, the Chippewas of Nawash is a -- is 24 a related First Nation that shares cultural, linguistic and 25 kinship ties with the Chippewas of Kettle and Stoney Point


1 and it's a few hours drive away. It's on the Bruce 2 Peninsula. 3 But more specifically, the Chippewas of Nawash 4 experienced some events which, in a general sense, could be 5 thought of as similar-fact events. Not as dramatic or severe 6 as those at Ipperwash but have had a number of incidents, 7 including some occurring the very same weekend as the -- the 8 Ipperwash events. 9 Some of those, those points are -- are set out 10 in the -- in the application. They included a -- they're -- 11 they're events surrounding assertion of aboriginal fishing 12 rights. And some -- some of the events were the burning of a 13 -- of an aboriginal fisherman's boat, sabotage of their nets. 14 There was a violent confrontation in -- in 15 Owen Sound which, with the local non-aboriginal people, 16 including an elected politician. I'm not saying he was 17 involved in the violence but it -- it was a confrontation 18 which -- which resulted in the -- in the assault of Nawash 19 fish vendor, and there was also a stabbing of -- of three (3) 20 Chippewas Nawash youth Owen Sound, which appears related to 21 the assertion of aboriginal fishing rights. 22 In addition, the Chippewas Nawash have burial 23 ground concerns in their -- in their area and have had two 24 (2) incidents of occupy -- occupying burial grounds because 25 development was impending or had taken place.


1 So, they have things to say about relations 2 between First Nations and -- and non-aboriginal people in 3 relation to the assertion of aboriginal rights and 4 specifically in relation to aboriginal burial sites and how 5 they should be treated as a matter of policy. 6 There's also a link with the police that -- 7 that in the incidents, especially these '95, 1995 incidents, 8 the Chippewas Nawash were -- were disappointed in the level 9 of police support and protection that they received. 10 So, that -- the points we want to address are 11 -- are set out on page two (2) of the application at the 12 bottom; to address the role of police in dealing with 13 aboriginal and non-aboriginal parties when there is a 14 conflict regarding aboriginal rights, the relationship 15 between police and First Nations communities, the role of 16 provincial and Federal policy in relating to aboriginal 17 rights and how it may contribute to conflicts, including land 18 claims policy, burial grounds policy and policing policy, 19 also the role of non-aboriginal organizations that may 20 contribute to escalating tensions and the role of the public 21 education in reducing the potential for violent 22 confrontations. 23 That -- that is another matter that the 24 Chippewas Nawash, because of these events that they 25 experienced, took steps to try to decrease the -- the tension


1 and -- and they -- they would like to speak -- to share those 2 experiences about how that can be done and what effect it can 3 have with this Commission, because we submit that's -- that's 4 quite closely related to this Commission's mandate. 5 We are aware of other aboriginal groups and 6 have spoken with some of them who are applying, to the extent 7 we have general concerns that would be shared by any First 8 Nation. And we're content to work together with other 9 organizations such as the Chiefs of Ontario, which will be 10 making a separate application for -- for those. 11 But it -- it is specifically because of these 12 particular experiences, which have some similarities with the 13 Ipperwash incident, that -- that we are asking for separate 14 standing and for -- and for funding. 15 There is a -- a budget, which is in the 16 materials, of how we -- what we're proposing. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've also 18 provided a great deal of information regarding your financial 19 position and your financial statements and so on; they're all 20 in here. 21 Mr. ROGER TOWNSHEND: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, carry on. 23 Mr. ROGER TOWNSHEND: The -- the budget was 24 based -- sort of what it was going to cover -- I -- I realize 25 Part II of the Inquiry is quite undefined at present, so --


1 so we're suggesting if -- if this Inquiry views with favour 2 our -- our ideas of what is relevant, that there be, in fact, 3 evidence type hearings about some of these events. And -- 4 so, we've put in budget for collecting and -- and preparing 5 evidence for such events -- for such hearings and attending 6 at such hearings. 7 And in addition, participating in -- in some 8 of the more general forums which this Commission is -- is 9 proposing and -- and also preparing final submissions. And 10 the way the budget is -- is organized the -- the principle is 11 set out in -- in Budget Note 1 on the second page. 12 We're asking for funding for legal counsel and 13 for a researcher to work at the community level but that -- 14 and we're asking the Commission to fund that -- or the 15 Ontario -- Commission to recommend funding for that. 16 And we're -- we're asking and proposing that 17 Nawash pick up other costs such as the costs of the Chief, 18 community members, Elders participating in these -- in these 19 events and also covering the office and administrative costs 20 of the researcher including travel costs. 21 So, that -- that's how we came up with -- with 22 that budget and it's an estimate of how long it may take to 23 have the kind of hearing we're suggesting and that's how 24 we've divided it up. 25 The financial information I'm relying on


1 primarily is -- is contained in a letter from the financial 2 administrator of Nawash; it's dated April 7th. And it's by 3 way of explaining some of the -- the financial statements. 4 And you'll notice on -- on the first page, the 5 fourth paragraph down, saying that there's -- there's almost 6 no flexibility for new initiatives or unexpected costs and 7 that the budget reflects existing programs and -- and 8 obligations to those programs, most of which are -- are 9 Federally funded and -- and have restrictions on their use as 10 well. 11 And the fin -- the bottom paragraph in -- of 12 the first page of that let -- letter is talking about the 13 financial constraints the Nawash is now facing and, as a 14 result, has -- has laid off three (3) full time staff and 15 several short term staff. 16 They have a waiting list of forty (40) 17 families requiring housing that they -- they can't -- can't 18 provide because there is insufficient funding. And they have 19 cancelled some programs and services, mentioning that the 20 current unemployment rate in the community is over 60 21 percent. 22 And over on the -- the second -- second page 23 of that letter, stating that without funding they just can't 24 do that. They -- they have things that they believe would 25 assist this Commission and would like to -- and would like to


1 assist this Commission but aren't -- aren't able to do it 2 with -- without some -- some funding. 3 I've also included biographical precis' of the 4 -- of the two (2) lawyers proposed to work on this file, 5 using junior counsel where -- where possible. Although, the 6 junior counsel in question, although, recently called, has 7 had essentially already had a career in -- in areas related 8 to aboriginal rights and -- and, in fact, is co-editor of a 9 book, "On Nation to Nation Aboriginal Sovereignty and the 10 Future of Canada". 11 So, that's by way of -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is Lorraine 13 Land -- this is Lorraine Land? 14 MR. ROGER TOWNSEND: Yes, yes. That's -- 15 that's my way of supporting the -- the rates proposed which 16 -- which are consistent with the -- the government services 17 rates, I understand the Commission is -- is going by. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you -- 19 you've got rates in here that are -- are not consistent so, 20 for what -- you're making some claims for amounts that 21 wouldn't be, but the way it would work is -- id if I make a 22 recommendation for funding, the funding is provided by the 23 Government and it would probably be according to a -- a 24 tariff or schedule that they would develop -- or that -- that 25 they already have in place.


1 It wouldn't be something that we would 2 determine here. And there would be, as I mentioned 3 yesterday, an assessor of some sort in place to assess 4 individual claims. And the management board guidelines would 5 be operative and so on. 6 MR. ROGER TOWNSEND: Yeah. We've tried to 7 come within those guidelines. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 9 that. It's just some of the amounts that you've put in here, 10 you -- you've just indicated -- it's hard to tell at this 11 point how Part II will go -- 12 MR. ROGER TOWNSEND: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- in terms of 14 the number of days, but the amounts are also just amounts 15 that you have indicated. They don't bear any relationship in 16 some cases to what the government rates are. 17 MR. ROGER TOWNSEND: Oh, all right. Was -- 18 was there a particular item there -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, well just 20 looking -- just looking at them; for example, there are some 21 counsel fees here which would be far in excess of what -- 22 what the Government would allow. 23 The senior counsel at fifteen hundred and 24 twenty dollars ($1520) a day, for example. 25


1 MR. ROGER TOWNSHEND: That -- that was based 2 on one-ninety (190) an hour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it -- is it in 4 the -- is it in the rate? It start -- there's an hourly 5 rate -- 6 MR. ROGER TOWNSHEND: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- within -- 8 MR. ROGER TOWNSHEND: It is within that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Those are -- 10 those are taken from the guidelines? 11 MR. ROGER TOWNSHEND: Yes, they are. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. It's 13 certainly not an excessive request, in any event, all over in 14 terms of the grand total. Thank you, is there anything else 15 that you want to say on -- 16 MR. ROGER TOWNSHEND: Those are my 17 submissions, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 19 much. The -- the maximum hourly rate, as I understand it, is 20 a hundred and ninety-two dollars ($192). Is that correct? 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Under the government 22 regulation that we're bound by, that's correct, for ten (10) 23 years and more experience. We are bound by the -- the 24 Ministry of the Attorney General fee schedule with respect to 25 counsel and that is the maximum in that fee schedule.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 2 much, sir. 3 Shall we stay in order? Should we stay -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sir, the next person who is 5 scheduled to speak is Mr. Maynard T. George and he requested 6 a -- if we -- video facilities. 7 We've now been able to obtain some video 8 facilities but it'll take us a few minutes to set it up. So 9 if we take a five (5) minute break so that could be done, 10 they -- it could be set up and Mr. George could -- will be 11 able to show his video that he's requested. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can do it 13 that quickly? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The machine's -- we've 15 obtained the machine since he made the request this morning 16 and it simply needs to be set up in here. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm impressed. 18 He made a request this morning and we're able to -- you mean 19 -- you need -- he's now saying ten (10) minutes. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ten (10) minutes then. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 That's still remarkable. Okay, that's fine. I -- or we can 23 -- we can't go out of sequence because we have to vacate the 24 room so the facilities can be set up. Is that the -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it's -- it has to be


1 brought in. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can't go on 3 with other applications? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, because Mr. Rehak -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- has to set it up. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 8 worth waiting ten (10) minutes to accommodate -- 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. George. 11 Okay, we'll take a ten (10) minute or as long as you need. 12 Ten (10) minute recess. Thank you very much. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Hearing will recess for 14 ten (10) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon Recessing at 11:05 a.m. 17 --- Upon Resuming at 11:17 a.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Hearing is now resumed. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 21 sir. 22 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Good morning, Your 23 Honour. I presented, I believe, different members with 24 copies of this document here. 25 COMMISSIONER LINDEN: Yes Sir.


1 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: It's a written 2 submission. I have one (1) for Dudley George's family. I 3 realize there's a time frame going, so, I'll try to make this 4 brief. 5 I'll read it, basically what I've presented 6 here in writing. It's addressed to the Judicial Inquiry. It 7 says: 8 "I stand here today with a thought and 9 intention of the events of September 1995, 10 especially the reasons why the late Dudley 11 George was at the former Ipperwash 12 Provincial Park on this particular night in 13 question. I'm sure more learned barristers 14 and solicitors have come before this 15 Commission in the Ipperwash Inquiry which 16 will, ultimately, bring the late Dudley 17 George's physical being before, during and 18 after the death occurred and with accurate 19 findings. 20 My presence here today gives perspective to 21 the issues of Part I, circumstances and the 22 events surrounding the death of Dudley 23 George and later Part II, the relationship 24 between the police and government, the 25 interaction between the police and


1 protesters and the avoidance of violent 2 confrontations over aboriginal indigenous 3 land and our treaty rights with present day 4 laws protecting such lands and treaty 5 claims in the Province of Ontario." 6 Sirs and ladies, because I have only a limited 7 time to make this presentation onto these honourable learned 8 folks of the Commission, I would ask that the questions be 9 refrained until the presentation of the issues at hand be 10 presented, unless it conflicts with one of the rules of the 11 Inquiry. 12 Accordingly as per Rule I, I wish to submit 13 this overview of the area in question as an Exhibit marked, 14 Maynard P. George Exhibit, P-1. This plan was developed by 15 an Ontario land surveyor, Mr. John McDonald (phonetic) on or 16 about September 4, 19 -- 1835. It depicts the alleged area 17 which comprises of former Bosanquet Township, which had its 18 legal boundaries changed, I believe, in the year 2001, or six 19 (6) years after Dudley George was fatally shot by an Ontario 20 Provincial Police Officer. 21 As a person directly involved in the 22 Repossession Act of May 6, '93 at approximately 8:30 a.m., 23 which is filmed, documented and present; and I will use the 24 words, "circumstances and events," in this portion of the 25 presentation.


1 The circumstances and events surrounding the 2 death of the late Dudley George is the reason we are here and 3 the presentations of facts about my involvement will shed 4 light into Parts of I and II. 5 May 6th of 1993's films will show, as our 6 records, communications and testimonies that we were orderly, 7 law-abiding, non-violent and constructive. It will detail 8 how we advised the military, the local Members of Parliament, 9 the Ontario Provincial Police and certain RCMP that certain 10 dislodged Stoney Point Chippewa families who were not 11 compensated by Canada were returning home legally. 12 It shows that we didn't use idigeneous First 13 Nations laws or rights of ownership; rather, we used laws 14 such as the Proclamation dated November 8, 1850. This said 15 act is legally defined as an Indian Affairs' record of land 16 registry origin listed as Instrument Number 8740-292, sealed 17 into registry on or about October 1st, 1971 for approximately 18 one hundred ten (110) years after it was created. 19 Learned ladies and gentlemen, the day we moved 20 onto the lands at the former cadet camp Ipperwash site was 21 May 6 of '93. Dudley and his entourage moved into the rifle 22 range later that month. Everyone locally knew this event had 23 taken place by reason of media coverage and during the time I 24 and my entourage entered the said lands, we made films of all 25 the events, before, during and after the shooting because


1 this was history. 2 Our primary objective was to gain accurate 3 film footage, or records, which would be factual in the event 4 some unforeseen event took place. Plus, we wanted to see who 5 would come onto the lands with us from Stoney Point in 1942 6 as opposed to those who wouldn't. 7 This research involved, due to hearsay rumour, 8 certain Stoney Point Chippewa received payments from Canada, 9 via National Defence. From May 6th of '93 helicopters flew 10 over the camp sites of our aged and youth on a nightly basis 11 or at least until I personally met with the former Minister 12 of National Defence of the day, the Honourable Kim Campbell, 13 who was also seeking a post as Prime Minister from the office 14 she held as Deputy Minister. 15 She lost her election bid and the Liberal 16 Party took office. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. George, I 18 don't -- I don't wish to interrupt you. 19 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know you're 21 reading from the document and I'm reading along with you. 22 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 24 what you're reading -- 25 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and I'm 2 following it. 3 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: There is a purpose 4 behind it because there is a different change of hands of 5 parties and one successive party did not inform the other as 6 they should have and this is the point I was getting at. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I guess the -- I 8 just want to remind you, the purpose of these hearings is to 9 determine standing. 10 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're not 12 dealing with the evidence now. 13 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If -- if you're 15 called as a witness or if you are -- if you're giving 16 testimony -- 17 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- then some of 19 what you're saying will be important for us to hear. 20 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But the question 22 now is, simply standing. Whether or not you have sufficient 23 connection -- 24 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to the events


1 to be -- 2 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- granted 4 standing and -- and funding. And that's what this Hearing is 5 about. 6 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, if it's 8 possible to confine your remarks to that, I'd be very 9 grateful. 10 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay. The remarks on 11 this issue, basically outlines that we were present. That we 12 did take film of the issues and events which have shed light 13 to the Commission Inquiry itself. 14 But, it was also -- it also takes funding and 15 the need to present accurate records. They can't be just 16 confirmed simply by the oral history of our people alone. I 17 believe that there are documentation and records which do 18 exist but we don't have the finances to actually acquire 19 them. 20 A part of the materials is found at Canada 21 House in England. Another portion is found at the 22 Congressional Library in the United States of America. It 23 all has to do with the North American Free Trade Agreement 24 and so forth. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right.


1 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Because it goes through 2 native territory, and unceded at that. And if Dudley George 3 was, I believe, harmed -- I believe he was harmed as a result 4 of ulterior motives other than just occupying a particular 5 land. And it's what I would like to shed light on. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. Do 7 -- do you have a video to show us? 8 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Yes. I do have several 9 videos and I limited and restricted them to -- as to content 10 and time -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Rehak there 12 will help you with the -- with the technology. Just tell him 13 what to do. 14 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: This -- this film 15 depicts a time in 1994, it's a brief film at the Saugeen 16 Administration in Southampton, Ontario where approximately a 17 hundred (100) people fled -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unfortunately, 19 we only have one (1) monitor so people in the audience can't 20 see it. 21 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But, if you want 23 to come around and look at it, that's fine. I'm looking at 24 it. 25 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right.


1 (VIDEO SHOWN) 2 3 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: And we could change the 4 film at this point. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're trying to 9 keep this on the record. 10 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: The other film here, this 11 next film depicts the -- the intent of the military prior to 12 us moving on there. It's -- I got permission from The Fifth 13 Estate to show a portion of it and as well as the other 14 portions, I got it from a lady by the name of Lynette 15 Fortune. She's a producer with the -- or executive assistant 16 producer with The Fifth Estate. 17 18 (VIDEO SHOWN) 19 20 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: You can stop there and go 21 to the next film. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 23 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: This film identifies 24 that money was paid, but there was also a condition that 25 those that were moved weren't being affected and we have to


1 prove that to substantiate it. 2 The next film, play it, please. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many do you 4 have, Mr. George? 5 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Four (4). We're just 6 about done. 7 8 (VIDEO TAPE SHOWN) 9 10 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: That would be good 11 enough, right there. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: This was a recent tape. 14 Not to long ago, 1998. Binery (phonetic) Provincial Park. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What -- what is 16 this a tape of? 17 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: This depicts -- a crowd 18 dissatisfied -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 20 21 (VIDEO TAPE SHOWN) 22 23 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: We could stop it right 24 there. I think that's sufficient. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. Okay


1 Mr. George. 2 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: The films which we have 3 acquired, I have several boxes full of them, and I'm putting 4 together -- I've never handed it over the documents to the 5 Special Investigations Unit. They would never approached me. 6 I was never asked by them to make submission to them. 7 However, I thought everybody knew we had the 8 records and films of these events and the time frames. But 9 to put it together and appropriate dialogue and submission, 10 which would be evidential to the Inquiry, takes time and 11 money. I have a professional film crew that worked with me. 12 And because of the nature of the issue, 13 because it deals with international affairs, I took films, 14 approximately two (2) boxes, out of the country into Jordan 15 and another box went to France. I have to reacquire them 16 because I put them in hiding out of the country in the event 17 something happened to me before it became public. 18 Within these films I was, you know, given 19 financial bribes, or asked to take a bribe, but I didn't. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We would like to 21 have access to whatever you have and whatever contribution 22 you can make to the -- to the Inquiry. I'm going to 23 encourage you to be in touch with our counsel, I'm going to 24 encourage you to make available whatever you have to this 25 Inquiry so we can evaluate it and if it is relevant to have


1 it available to us during the course of the Inquiry. 2 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We do have some 4 resources and we do have a -- we do have an investigator and 5 perhaps more than one (1) -- 6 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and we're 8 prepared to take a role in -- in gathering this evidence and 9 making it available through this Inquiry. 10 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. I'd be more 11 than happy to help this Inquiry and to help the George family 12 to, you know, seek the justice and also that the immediate 13 people. Land claims is an important and integral part of the 14 First Nation people. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Certainly we've lost a 17 lot resources to that issue but I believe that through 18 education and knowledge, we can actually sit down and resolve 19 the issues rather than be confrontational about it. 20 I would sooner educate the public. I've tried 21 to use all the resources at hand with the limited 22 capabilities we had, but -- certainly Dudley's death was 23 unforeseen and he was going back, in my opinion, to acquire 24 his family's land. He didn't know the Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park was located in between Kettle Point and Stoney Point.


1 And that that's where the burial site is. 2 That's where we recorded it. He assumed that the Ipperwash 3 Provincial Park today is the actual burial site. There is a 4 burial site there underneath that one building. We filmed 5 that and we had an access to other areas that were -- had 6 cemeteries. 7 There's the main cemetery by the garbage dump. 8 There's a cemetery located off Highway 21. There's one on 9 Outer Drive and so forth. So I -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. George, that 11 -- as I said, Mr. George, I -- I think that the purpose of 12 today's hearing is just to determine standing. I can see you 13 have relevant evidence, perhaps testimony -- 14 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: But to put that 15 together, Your Honour, it will take financial help -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 17 suggesting you -- 18 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: -- and I do need the 19 help of a lawyer. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm suggesting 21 that you be in touch with our counsel -- 22 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and through 24 our counsel, through our investigative capacity and we will 25 do what we can to assemble and gather and present the


1 evidence that you have to make sure that it gets aired in 2 this public inquiry. 3 That's what we're saying. 4 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: All right. Thank you. 5 I appreciate your time. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, very 7 kindly, sir. 8 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Have a good day. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We -- do we just 10 keep going through the list in -- in the ordinary way? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. Mr. Cloud is next. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Cloud is 13 next. Again, Mr. -- Mr. Trevor Cloud is not represented. 14 He's speaking on his own behalf? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, Commissioner. Mr. 16 Cloud is speaking on his own behalf. Mr. Cloud's coming up, 17 sir. Thank you, very much, Mr. George. 18 MR. MAYNARD GEORGE: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're Mr. 20 Trevor Cloud. 21 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand, 23 Mr. Cloud, that you're making an application for standing for 24 Part II of the Inquiry? 25 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: Yes. I'm making


1 application for Part II of the public inquiry and I was a 2 little scared at first because I had nothing to say here 3 today until last night -- or until this morning, excuse me. 4 I -- when I woke up this morning I wrote out 5 my submission and this is all I have to say. 6 Your Honour, ladies and gentlemen, my name is 7 Trevor Leland Cloud and I am here to honour a noble man, 8 settle a score and make an application for standing and 9 funding for the Inquiry. 10 I am a Stoney Point native. You may ask 11 yourself, what's the difference between a Kettle Point native 12 and a Stoney Point native? I'll tell you. A Stoney Point 13 native is one who suffers oppression. Their lands were taken 14 from them long ago and the Government of Canada gave Kettle 15 Point the right to be their oppressors. 16 A true blooded, Stoney Point native is gifted 17 in many ways and they have so much to offer the world. Their 18 blood ties comes from a land that is very special. The land 19 I am referring to is Stoney Point First Nation Number. 20 This land is holy land and it has been known 21 by all natives who live in North America for thousands of 22 years. In the old days when neighbouring natives came to 23 trade furs, plant and seed, it was customary for them to lay 24 down their weapons before they entered the territory. Today 25 that custom is being restored. For the Stoney Point natives


1 are home to stay and all their traditional lands must be 2 returned. 3 Now, I would like to address the Commissioner 4 with grievances that I have with Ontario Provincial Police 5 and the Provincial Government. On June 28th -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not -- I'm 7 not sure, Mr. Cloud, how that bears on your application for 8 standing, grievances that you've had with the Provincial 9 Government regarding -- I'm sorry, I've read your submission. 10 Perhaps you would explain that. 11 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: It has direct relevance to 12 the lands that are known now as the Ipperwash Provincial 13 Park. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 Explain that for me, please. Thank you. 16 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: On June 28th, 1992 the 17 Ontario Provincial Police did maliciously violate my rights 18 as a Stoney Point native by charging me for rights I 19 exercised guaranteed to me, the Stoney -- in the Stoney Point 20 land surrender, dated June 27th, 1929 and I have -- I have 21 the surrender here available for -- for your Commission to 22 read. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want to 24 take a look at that? Thank you. Let me just take a look at 25 this. This is dated June 27th, 1929.


1 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: That is the original -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got a 3 copy? 4 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: -- land surrender. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got a 6 copy? 7 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want to 9 show this to our Counsel? Have we -- have we got a copy of 10 this? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We -- we have, of 13 course, thousands and thousands of pages of documents. I 14 don't know if we have this or not that we've been turned over 15 to us that we will make this part of the Inquiry. We intend 16 to produce as -- as much of these historical documents as are 17 relevant as we can. 18 MR. TREVOR CLOUD: But these charges were a 19 direct violation of my -- of my rights as a Stoney Point 20 native which were free use, passage and enjoyment of the 21 territory. For your information, I exercised these rights on 22 June 27th, 1992 and I abandoned my car because I was not 23 prepared to be arrested on my father's birthday. The charges 24 followed the day after. 25 Furthermore, Your Honour, I would like to


1 address these hearings, on the atrocities directed at me by 2 the Provincial Government. To start with, the Provincial 3 Court ticket division would not allow me to pay these charges 4 I received June 27th, 1992, leaving my driver's license in 5 limbo for tickets outstanding. 6 It has been twelve (12) years now and I am 7 still waiting for justice to prevail. Also I am accusing the 8 Provincial Government of threatening me through family 9 services. On June 20th, 2001 the Ministry and Community and 10 Social Services issued me a second notice of intention to 11 suspend my driver's license for money -- monies owed and the 12 first time they did suspend my license requiring me to pay a 13 thousand dollars ($1,000) for reinstatement. 14 But on the second notice of intention to 15 suspend my driver's license, they gave me until August 16th, 16 2001 to respond and make arrangements knowing I was in 17 college at the time and unable to pay. They advised me to 18 seek legal advice. 19 So I did as he said and seeked out a barrister 20 of high standings and explained to him my situation. He did 21 research on behalf -- on my behalf and realized the situation 22 I was in and wrote a letter of recommendation for legal aid 23 because he told me the government is not in the habit of 24 threatening people. 25 And they say -- when they say they're going to


1 do something like suspend your driver's license, they do it. 2 And to my astonishment, as well as his, the government 3 refused to grant me legal aid. It has been three (3) years 4 now and the Family Services office still has not suspended my 5 driver's license. 6 This atrocity has left me in fear every day 7 and is a clear violation of my constitutional rights as a 8 Canadian citizen. Also, a garnishee was put on my wages 9 which was imposed in 1990 and by their income tax division. 10 This has destroyed my ability to make a living. Even though 11 I have a college education, it has ruined my income tax plan 12 since I have not paid nor received income tax since 1990. 13 In fact, I still have the last refund dated 14 October 1990. So I ask you, Honour, that my application for 15 standing and funding be approved for a very troubled life and 16 today you and the ladies and gentlemen in this building are 17 going to witness a very historical moment. 18 Because I am prepared to light the seventh 19 fire in honour of Dudley. This fire will spread like 20 wildfire through the hearts of all natives who know what I'm 21 talking about. And it will eliminate oppression and it will 22 eliminate hardship and it will restore the traditional way of 23 life. 24 I know it seems like an unorthodox way of 25 approaching this Inquiry but I do have the Great Spirit as my


1 counsel. Thank you, Your Honour. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 3 much, Mr. Cloud. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, we 8 have -- we have two (2) more applicants, I think. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have, on our list to -- 10 for today, we have Anishinabek Police Services. The 11 Nishnwbe-Aski Police Services Board has been moved to Friday 12 as a result of the -- the request by Nishnwbe-Aski Police 13 Services Board; their counsel is not available until Friday. 14 And we then have the Aboriginal Legal Services 15 of Toronto and Mr. and Mrs. Neuts and Mr. and Mrs. Neuts 16 communicated with me and they will not be here until two 17 o'clock this afternoon. So, we again have gone faster than 18 we had scheduled but those are the applications we had listed 19 for today. 20 So, we have the Anishinabek Police Services 21 and Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto and then Mr. and 22 Mrs. Neuts after two o'clock. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How do you 24 suggest we proceed? Do we do the ones that are already here 25 and get them done and then adjourn for lunch and do Mr. and


1 Mrs. Neuts? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, I suggest we do that. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because the 4 people who are here may want to get their applications in and 5 move on. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's correct. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's do 8 that. It's just five (5) minutes to 12:00. The next 9 application is the Anishinabek Police Service. The 10 Nishnwbe-Aski Service -- Police Services Board has been put 11 over to Friday, so, we -- is there somebody here from the law 12 office of Hugh MacDonald? I'm sorry? 13 MR. HUGH MACDONALD: This is the entire law 14 office of Hugh MacDonald. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is Hugh 16 MacDonalds? Thank you. Thank you, sir. 17 MR. HUGH MACDONALD: Good morning, sir. 18 The Anishinabek Police Service is seeking both 19 standing and funding recommendation for Part II only, 20 although the Anishinabek Police Service was directly involved 21 in the confrontations that are the primary area of interest 22 in Part I. 23 Nevertheless, we believe that the involvement 24 of our police service really didn't begin until after the 25 fatal shooting and was -- although we have an interest in


1 that -- that particular aspect of your deliberations, it's in 2 the second stage that we believe our issues and interests are 3 directly affected. 4 The Anishinabek Police Service and similar 5 police service and similar police services are the new model 6 of native governed controlled police agencies that are taking 7 root both in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada. They are 8 referred to as Stand-Alone Police Service. And the -- the 9 APS or the Anishinabek Police Service has been in existence 10 now for some thirteen (13) years, funded by Canada and 11 Ontario under recurring tri-partite police agreements. 12 They are -- my client the APS is, I think, the 13 largest and certainly one of the most, long established of 14 these regional police agencies and as time passes, it has 15 expanded both its capability and the number of nations that 16 it represents. Currently it is policing seventeen (17) 17 different First Nation territories, one of which is Kettle 18 and Stoney Point First Nation. 19 The APS emerges as a response to an 20 overwhelming view that the former police models, primarily 21 the OPP, policing First Nations was not effective and not 22 culturally responsive and with the passage of time became 23 more and more an objectionable form of policing in First 24 Nations territories. 25 The Stand-Alone Forces, such as APS, have --


1 have taken on more and more First Nations and relieved the 2 OPP or RCMP, in other jurisdictions, from primary police 3 responsibility throughout Ontario; and it's recognized, I 4 think, by everyone including the Provincial Police that this 5 model is delivering a much better, more culturally 6 appropriate form of policing. 7 APS itself, has taken a lead role with both 8 Federal and provincial programs in developing policies, 9 implementing pilot projects, developing models, practices, 10 procedures, inter-police protocols that are being developed 11 and implemented across -- across the nation. 12 Among its basic goals, as is indicated in our 13 application, is to provide an effective, efficient and 14 culturally sensitive police service for the territories that 15 enrol. 16 The direct involvement that APS had in this 17 particular territory and in these particular events began 18 around the height of the crisis when the relations between 19 the OPP and the First Nations occupants of Camp Ipperwash 20 were at their worst. 21 Indeed, it was such a bad situation that the 22 APS were approached to by, not only the Kettle First Nation 23 but the Province of Ontario, to intervene and some fifteen 24 (15) officers, including the Chief, essentially moved a task 25 force into the community for some three (3) months of


1 continuous policing. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was that right 3 after the September incident or right at that time? 4 MR. HUGH MACDONALD: Very closely on the 5 heels of the shooting. 6 The -- the consequences of that intervention 7 and the change in the personalities, the change in the feel, 8 the change of the culture of the police officers who were 9 almost -- primarily native officers, defused that 10 confrontation and the -- the role that the APS took in that 11 three (3) month period was to provide both security for 12 negotiators, the community policing in general was taken over 13 by APS. 14 And in that period a second crisis developed 15 at Kettle First Nations' Band offices where a group of 16 protestors took over and occupied the Band offices and 17 another crisis ensued which the APS was able to negotiate 18 directly a vacating of the Band Offices and an alternative 19 method of dealing with the disputes that arose there; 20 avoiding injury, avoiding a further violent outcome. 21 APS was soon after recognized by the local 22 native community as a model and an option of policing that 23 was far better than either the OPP or even their own 24 partially independent provincially funded Kettle Police 25 Service. It was disbanded and they joined the APS and remain


1 a very active supporter and member of the -- the police -- 2 police nations of our service. 3 The interests of the police service may, 4 indeed, be directly impacted by a number of things that 5 occur. Indeed, there may be criticisms that do arise, either 6 in Part I or later in Part II about their model of policing, 7 their intervention, how -- how -- how they conducted 8 themselves and there may be suggestions for improvement that 9 we feel may require direct involvement and participation. 10 The thing that I think that would assist you, 11 Mr. Commissioner, is that they are in the business of an 12 alternative policing of First Nations and deal every day with 13 the reality of dealing with native and cultural conflict, 14 native justice, criminal occurrences on First Nations. They 15 are also dealing daily with the senior levels of government. 16 Your findings, your recommendations, may 17 directly bear on the growth and development of alternative 18 policing models including, but not limited to, an APS type of 19 model. I believe that our staff and the evidence, if 20 necessary, that is called at Part II by APS would greatly 21 assist you with on the ground insights into the realities of 22 recommendations that may be coming forward. 23 Certainly, they have years of experience and 24 perspectives on policing in First Nations and direct 25 perspectives on dealing with confrontations, barricades,


1 crises of that -- of that type. 2 Indeed, they would welcome opportunities to 3 see an enlargement of native policing both on territory and 4 in matters involving native interests off reserve. An 5 example, for instance, might be the tasking a more culturally 6 appropriate police presence at a native crime scene in an 7 urban area. Things of that nature where it's proven that a 8 response by persons of the same culture may be -- may be the 9 better alternative. 10 Certainly, on the issue -- I'll move to the 11 issue of funding. The balance of my comments and submissions 12 are in the written material. I'll simply state that APS is 13 funded simply for the delivery of its police service and -- 14 and nothing more is in its allocations from Canada or Ontario 15 to enable it to participate meaningfully in a lengthy Inquiry 16 process. 17 And our financial material indicates -- copies 18 of the financial statements, in fact, show accumulated 19 deficits over the years. There are no additional funds that 20 can be accessed by the Anishinabek Police Service to -- to 21 supplement the funding allocations that it has which are now 22 currently locked in for a three (3) year period. 23 And, therefore, we would ask that you 24 recommend funding if we are granted standing. Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, half


1 your funding is from the Government of Canada and half from 2 the Province of Ontario? 3 MR. HUGH MACDONALD: Approximately. It's 4 fifty-two (52) Canada, forty-eight (48) Ontario. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 Thank you very kindly. Your information is quite complete. 7 Thank you. 8 Okay. We move on. How are you, sir? 9 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. Brian Eyolfson on behalf of Aboriginal Legal 11 Services of Toronto. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: And ALST is applying for 14 standing in both Part I and Part II of the Inquiry and also 15 respectfully requests that a recommendation for funding be 16 made should standing be granted. 17 Now, the nature of ALST and its mandate is set 18 out in some detail in our materials, so, I'll try to avoid 19 repeating any of that but just would like to highlight a few 20 points. 21 ALST is a non-profit, multi-service legal 22 agency providing direct services to the aboriginal community 23 through a variety of programs. And ALST is governed by a 24 community-based board of directors. 25 Now, in terms of its mandate, ALST is


1 committed to assisting the aboriginal community and its 2 members to gain control over the justice-related issues that 3 affect them. 4 And ALST's mandate also includes seeking a 5 positive environment related to justice issues for the 6 aboriginal community based on mutual understandings with non- 7 aboriginal services such as police and other enforcement 8 agencies. 9 And consistent with its mandate, ALST also 10 seeks standing and participation before the courts and 11 tribunals where those proceedings will have a significant 12 affect on the aboriginal community. And, for example, ALST 13 has been granted Intervenor status by the Supreme Court of 14 Canada in approximately seven (7) cases in recent years in 15 which systemic issues affecting aboriginal peoples have been 16 addressed. 17 We have also participated as an Intervenor in 18 a number of cases before the Ontario courts where similar 19 issues have been addressed. And further information on these 20 cases is set out in the affidavit of Margaret Froe (phonetic) 21 which is attached to our materials. So I won't go into any 22 detail. 23 I'd also like to point out that ALST has also 24 recently participated in approximately six (6) Coroner's 25 Inquests in the Province of Ontario and a number of these


1 inquests have addressed issues related to the deaths of 2 aboriginal persons while in custody. 3 In addition to practical experience, it's 4 submitted that ALST has developed considerable expertise with 5 respect to Aboriginal peoples and the justice system through 6 working directly with clients in its various programs and as 7 a result of its litigation, its advocacy, law reform and 8 community development initiatives. 9 Now, ALST submits that it has considerable ex 10 -- experience and expertise with respect to a number of 11 issues which appear to be relevant to the mandate of this 12 Inquiry and I'll just list a few of those as follows. 13 First of all, the relationship between 14 aboriginal peoples and the police including police oversight. 15 And in addition to assisting clients with issues in these 16 areas, just to highlight some of the work that ALST has done, 17 much of it's set out in our affidavit so I'll just mention a 18 few things; ALST has appeared before the Toronto Police 19 Services Board on a number of occasions to make submissions 20 on police practices and on improving relationships between 21 the aboriginal community and the police through the work of 22 the aboriginal peace keeping unit. 23 In terms of police oversight, ALST has been an 24 active member of the community coalition concerned about 25 civilian oversight of police, has appeared before the Ontario


1 standing committee on justice to discuss the aboriginal 2 communities' concerns with respect to police practices and 3 also in the context of proposed changes to legislation 4 concerning police oversight in Ontario. 5 And finally, ALST has also participated in two 6 (2) consultations in relation to a review of reforms that 7 were made to the SIU and made recommendations for further 8 improvements to the SIU in recognition of the need for 9 civilian oversight in order to maintain public confidence in 10 police services and from the perspective of the aboriginal 11 community. 12 And with respect to policing in particular, 13 ALST has been concerned with some particular systemic 14 problems such as over-policing, under-policing, which have 15 all been identified as common sources of systemic problems in 16 the criminal justice system through research. As well, ALST 17 is concerned with issues particular to aboriginal victims of 18 violence. 19 In addition, ALST also has experience with 20 respect to aboriginal peoples in the justice system more 21 generally, including systemic problems and the role of -- of 22 things such as stereotyping which exists in society in 23 general and how that plays out in the context of the justice 24 system; in terms of how Aboriginal peoples are received or 25 portrayed in the justice system.


1 And lastly, ALST is also well aware of the 2 problems facing abor -- aboriginal peoples in terms of access 3 to justice in Ontario, in both the criminal and civil 4 context, and also in terms of the barriers that are faced in 5 terms of advancing aboriginal rights claims. And this is 6 another area in which ALST has considerable expertise. And 7 it's submitted that these areas and issues are relevant to 8 the mandate of the Inquiry. 9 So, in light of its practical experience and 10 substantive expertise concerning these issues, as well as 11 ALST's mandate, it's respectfully submitted that ALST has a 12 direct and substantial interest in the subject matter of Part 13 I of the Inquiry and it can make important contributions to 14 the exploration and circumstances of the events surrounding 15 the death of Dud -- Dudley George and the events leading up 16 to that and subsequent to that. 17 The subject matter of Part I of the Inquiry is 18 also of the utmost importance to ALST's clients and members 19 and the issues that will be raised by the Inquiry, the 20 process itself and eventual recommendations have the 21 potential to impact directly and substantially on ALST's 22 clients and members. 23 And we also submit that, in light of our 24 mandate and experience, we represent distinct ascertainable 25 interests and perspectives with respect to issues and areas


1 relevant to the Inquiry's mandate and could assist the work 2 of the Commission in dis -- in discharging this mandate under 3 Part I. 4 ALST could assist by addressing systemic 5 issues that are relevant to the Inquiry's overall 6 proceedings; and consistent with ALST's expertise and ALST 7 could thereby assist with evidence in Part I that would 8 provide a useful context to inform an examination of the key 9 policy and systemic issues relevant to the overall 10 proceedings including Part II. 11 And it's respectfully submitted that on 12 either basis, ALST should be granted full standing in Part I 13 relevant to its interests. 14 With respect to Part II of the Inquiry, ALST 15 submits that it is substantially affected in that it has 16 expertise concerning many of the issues that will be 17 addressed in Part II and it could, therefore, assist the 18 Commission in discharging its mandate. It can also offer a 19 unique and important perspective to the Inquiry. And ALST 20 remains flexible as to how it could assist with respect to 21 Part II. 22 We proposed a number of possible means of 23 assisting, as set out in our materials and further in our 24 materials, I just wanted to note that ALST recently assisted 25 the Ontario Human Rights Commission in their inquiry into


1 racial profiling by organising a consultation with the 2 aboriginal community and with the Commission's report which 3 included a specific section on aboriginal peoples and 4 addressed possible solutions to the problem in the context of 5 policing. 6 The ALST is also seeking funding should 7 standing be granted and we respectfully request that a 8 recommendation for funding be made. In particular, we are 9 seeking funding for disbursements, in particular, to cover 10 out of town travel expenses for one (1) lawyer and also to 11 retain the services of an additional lawyer to assist the 12 ALST's preparation for participation in the proceedings. 13 Those are my submissions. Are there any 14 questions? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As you know, in 16 my last life, I was the Chair of the Board of Legal Aid 17 Ontario. 18 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I am quite 20 familiar with the ALST. Is it factual that the majority of 21 funding comes from Legal Aid Ontario? 22 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: I would say the majority 23 of funding does come from Legal Aid Ontario. Any additional 24 funding that ALST receives is very program specific. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: From the Federal


1 Government and issue specific and program specific. 2 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Correct. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mentioned in 4 -- one of the Affidavits makes reference, the Affidavit of 5 Kimberly Murray (phonetic), they're receiving sixty-five 6 hundred dollars ($6500) a year disbursements from Legal Aid 7 but it makes no reference to the other funding that Legal Aid 8 provides. 9 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: There is reference to an 10 additional source of funding for out of town travel expenses 11 as well in the Affidavit of Kimberly Murray; and I believe 12 she explains that -- how these funds are generally used up on 13 a consistent yearly basis. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see that 15 but, anyway, I notice that it makes reference to the receipt 16 of sixty-five hundred dollars ($6500) a year - this is in the 17 Affidavit - for disbursements, which indicates it's used 18 primarily for medical records and that it's simply not 19 sufficient to cover the cost of three (3) lawyers. 20 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Right. Well, ALST 21 provides a great deal of direct services to low-income 22 individuals in the aboriginal community and we do, you know, 23 a great deal of disability applications and that sort of 24 thing. This is largely what our disbursements are used for, 25 is that type of work.


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 2 fine for now. Thank you very kindly. Thank you very much. 3 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Thank you. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes Sir. Given the 5 original decision that was made that launched the schedule on 6 Tuesday and given the -- that decision having been made, the 7 schedule is set and people were -- expect to come when 8 they're intended when they were listed on the schedule. The 9 only matter left for today is Mr. and Mrs. Neuts and they 10 said they would be here at two o'clock. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's just about 12 twenty after 12:00, depending on which watch you looked at. 13 That's still five (5) minutes faster; right? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's right. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 16 approximately quarter after 12:00, so should we adjourn now 17 until two o'clock? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes and I regret once 19 again that our schedule was set in such a way that, as I said 20 before, this time lawyers spoke more quickly than I thought. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No one could 22 have anticipated that, Mr. Millar. No one. 23 Thank you very much. Thank you very much, 24 again. We will adjourn from now until two o'clock. And 25 everybody is welcome to come back but you certainly don't


1 have to. Thank you very much. 2 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 3 Hearing stands adjourned until two o'clock. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 12:19 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Hearing is now resumed. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good afternoon. 10 Mr. Neutz, are you going to address us? Would you -- would 11 you please come up here to the podium. You know what we're 12 speaking -- we're speaking about standing now. That's the 13 issue -- 14 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- now. That's 16 the issue; right? That's fine. 17 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: I have a address here, 18 Commissioner and if you like, I will go through it for you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: To the Commissioner Justice 21 Sidney B. Linden, lead counsel Mr. Derry Millar and other 22 members of the Commission and other interested parties, good 23 afternoon. 24 With a great deal of apprehension, my wife and 25 I stand before you today to explain our application for


1 standing at this Inquiry. We do so with great respect for 2 the procedure, with our hearts heavy for the family of Dudley 3 George and apologies to the residents of these communities 4 where all this began nine (9) years ago. 5 Six (6) years ago our family was devastated 6 when our oldest son, Miles, died at school on February 6th, 7 1998 in Chatham, Ontario. We were subjected to a fourteen 8 (14) month investigation with a fourteen (14) minute 9 explanation on why there would be no charges. 10 We endured through the beginning and ending of 11 a formal civil action that we only had six (6) months to 12 launch suit but withdrew just prior to a Coroner's Inquest 13 twenty-five (25) months later. 14 We embraced a Coroner's Inquest in the Summer 15 of '99 when Coroner Dr. Thomas Wilson visited our home with 16 the expressed purpose of convincing us to look favourably on 17 the process and willingly seek it out for answers. 18 We were ready March 6th of 2000 when we stood 19 and sought standing as our own legal representatives in the 20 Inquest into the death of Miles Neutz - but we are not 21 lawyers. We did not do what lawyers do for a client for 22 remuneration for a verdict. 23 We were not aware of our rights in a number of 24 ways in regard to the procedure. We were aware of our loss, 25 our broken hearts, numerous inconsistencies throughout the


1 investigation and the Inquest and we were aware of talk of 2 suicide and homosexuality in regards to Miles. 3 And, most importantly, we were aware of the 4 death of a First Nation individual named Dudley George in 5 September 1995. We were aware the new government of Ontario, 6 its so-called strong mandate for the people of Ontario. The 7 inaction in defence of the handling of the events in the 8 tragedy known as Ipperwash. The implications of political 9 interference. 10 We are here to seek answers into what 11 transpired here cultumating (phonetic) in Mr. George's death 12 and to seek preventative recommendations for something like 13 this not to happen again. But, and I say this loud and 14 clear, we are here also to explore the possibilities of 15 similar inaction, similar silence and the failure of 16 bureaucratic Ontario to resolve all the inconsistencies and 17 the implications of political interference in the 18 circumstances surrounding all aspects of Miles' demise, the 19 investigation and the inquest. 20 We wish today to visit the political agenda of 21 the PC government under the leadership of Mike Harris in 22 Ontario. We would like to see if the government's mandate 23 for the people of Ontario and the coincidence of its part in 24 the job action taken by educators in 1997 reflects on Miles' 25 death.


1 We would like to know if the amalgamation of 2 school boards and communities in Chatham -- Chatham Kent as 3 it is known now, influenced the investigation's inabilities 4 or abilities to resolve Miles' death. 5 If the question over who would police the new 6 community, a municipal police force or the OPP, came to be a 7 problem in consolidating resources to find answers in Miles' 8 death. We know of offers of assistance from the OPP to the 9 Chatham police were not fully communicated and accepted in 10 the Chatham police force by its future outgoing chief of 11 police, Donald Roscant (phonetic), who when he was 12 unsuccessful in becoming the new community police chief, 13 received an appointment from the government with a six (6) 14 figure salary and to this day not once has spoken to our 15 family. 16 We question the use of some OPP, most notably 17 Detective Sergeant Jim Van Allen of the Orillia Behavioural 18 Unit and Constable Gary Scone (phonetic) of the Chatham 19 Detachment then, we believe, possibly another detachment now 20 but the offer of more men, more hours for a homicide 21 department just coming off of a January 6, 1998 murder in 22 Chatham involving a brother and sister not being passed on to 23 a lead detective in the question of our son's death leads to 24 the question, why, and that's something I'll come back to 25 later, Detective Sergeant Jim Van Allen (phonetic) not being


1 called to the inquest by numerous parties and the subsequent 2 denial of my request, so the detective being denied. Why? 3 Just another note on the above subject. When 4 Dr. Wilson arrived at our home to convince us that a 5 coroner's inquest would be a good way to go, he told us that 6 a police force would be sought out by the coroner's office 7 that would be absolutely free of the investigation, so as to 8 not compromise the proceedings. At the end of the day, after 9 telling us it would not be the OPP, the Toronto police or the 10 Chatham police, he used the OPP. Why? 11 More questions on policing include the use of 12 the Toronto police in the investigation after the October 13 1998 multi-disciplinary case conference at the Ontario Police 14 College. The key recommendation in that conference was for 15 an independent police review of the case from a fresh set of 16 eyes and a fresh perspective. Instead, Inspector Tony War 17 (phonetic) from the Toronto Police Service, after attending 18 -- was used after attending the conference and as we found 19 out later, so was coroner's counsel, Mr. Al O'Marra, used in 20 the inquest after also taking part in the October conference. 21 As I said in our initial application to Mr. 22 Millar, we feel the question in your mandate for the 23 Ipperwash Inquiry, the relationship between police and 24 government must be answered in our interest to attend. As 25 we've wrote, we feel but have no proof of political


1 interference. 2 This now takes us to our other significant 3 point of reason to ask for standing here in Forest, Ontario 4 on the Ipperwash Inquiry. As we implied earlier, we embraced 5 the coroner's inquest concept from day one when it was 6 suggested. We want, we need, today; we wanted, we needed 7 then, truth and closure. The inquest began, coroner's 8 counsel Al O'Marra had already met us, asked us to undergo 9 psychiatric evaluation to dispel the suicide theory. He was 10 warm, helpful and suggestive on how to proceed. He inferred, 11 in a strong way, that Detective Sergeant Jim Van Allen 12 (phonetic) would be called by the Chatham Kent police or 13 himself. It never happened. Why? 14 By the end of the process he was objective, 15 if we seemed to stray from his line of thought, he helped to 16 shut us down, refused our requests for witnesses, strayed 17 from the position of neutrality and dealt with us with 18 disdain and contempt. His final summation to the jury, along 19 with the coroners, gave half-truths, innuendo and talked 20 about things and people that were never discussed or called 21 as witnesses and can only be viewed as desperation and 22 foolish. 23 The jury was instructed they could not come 24 back with a verdict of homicide; it would not be allowed. 25 Based on those words as the reason, the only reason, we


1 received a verdict of undetermined instead of homicide. I 2 have that knowledge from the coroner's jury itself. 3 We still consider the undetermined verdict a 4 victory. The homicide verdict is a little harsh and the 5 accidental verdict completely unfair, disrespectful of us, 6 Miles and the process. 7 Also in the process a lot of information is 8 shared in the hopes of excellent thought exchange and 9 structured, informed dialogue for recommendations. I contend 10 that Dr. Wilson and counsel Mr. O'Marra both knew it was the 11 Coroner's Office itself and their mistakes that prevented 12 Brenda and I from being able to donate Miles' organs to the 13 needy via organ harvesting and transplanting. 14 But they allowed a recommendation to stand in 15 that regards towards policing knowing full well it was not 16 the police who impeded that decision with a criminal 17 investigation but the Coroner's Office itself with a 18 dereliction of duty to communicate with us. 19 We -- we can also add in the dereliction of 20 duty, how is it that the inquest transcripts can be shared 21 with some parties at the end of the inquest but in our case 22 we were denied and instructed to file under the Freedom of 23 Information Act, a process that took almost two (2) years 24 with much dialogue with that office, the Minister of Public 25 Safety and Security, and all sorts of hints from them when


1 they called to apologize to us for the delays that numerous 2 parties were involved in hindering our application that 3 eventually yielded next to nothing for us. 4 How is it that the Coroner's Office or the 5 Coroner's verdict into the death of Miles impeded our 6 application for compensation for victims of crime. Why? Why 7 is it we were never offered or directed to a judicial review 8 when the Coroner's Office knew of our displeasure. Ask them? 9 Why does all the regulatory hearing panels for 10 complaints from the people have no authority over the 11 Coroner's Office, including the Ombudsman's Office, the Upper 12 Canada Law Society, the Medical Tribunal, I believe it's 13 called the College of Physicians and Surgeons, all have no 14 power or control of criticism of the process? 15 Why is it the day after the Coroner's Inquest 16 into the Labour Day weekend car crash in Essex, Ontario on 17 the 401 in the Fall of '99 or 2000 - I'm sorry, I don't have 18 the exact date - ended with recommendations that the Premier 19 of the Province, Mr. Harris, stand up and say, I cannot and 20 will not comply with the recommendations towards improving 21 the 401 corridor. We cannot afford it. 22 Why was no Coroner's Inquest called here into 23 the death of Dudley George until Mr. Harris and his 24 Conservative successor and party were defeated in the 25 election?


1 The question of policing government and 2 inquests and the similarities in the two (2) completely 3 different situations, Dudley George and Miles Neutz, both 4 involving the former government and the prompt messages of 5 their mandate speak of issues to be discussed. 6 We do not wish to hinder, delay or distract 7 from the Ipperwash Inquiry or insult or deny justice for 8 Dudley's family. We do wish to explore solutions to prevent 9 such circumstances and to dispel or correct suggestions of 10 political interference. 11 A simple objective of which we feel we can add 12 to the solution to the betterment of all and the integrity of 13 the process and procedures. We lost our son. We lost our 14 lives for large periods of time. We lost money. We lost 15 over and over in the six (6) years since Miles died. 16 We might have lost in our request for funding 17 but we still have pride and determination to fight for what 18 is right. We thank you and bode thee well in the task ahead 19 of you and respectfully await your decision, whatever it will 20 -- may be on our request. From my wife and I, thank you very 21 much. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 23 much, Mr. Neutz. Mrs. Neutz, thank you very much. Anybody 24 can understand your pain and your grief, especially any of us 25 who have had children or sons. It must be a very difficult


1 thing for you. 2 There are lots of similarities between the 3 experience you've just indicated and the one we have under 4 investigation here and there may be some ways that we can be 5 of some assistance to you. 6 I was going to ask you, do you live in this 7 community? I'm just curious. Where do you live? 8 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: No, sir. I live on the 9 former -- we live on the former Number 2 Highway just outside 10 of Thamesville, Ontario between Thamesville and Chatham, 11 Ontario. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 13 access to -- to a website? 14 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Yes, we do. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- a computer? 16 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Mr. Millar and I have 17 communicated in that way. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you know that 19 the transcripts of our Hearing here are going to be on the 20 website pretty well every day? 21 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can follow 23 them. 24 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And there'll be


1 some parts of the Inquiry here which will be of much more 2 interest to you than others, I assume. 3 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Yes, sir and -- and as I 4 wrote Mr. Millar prior to April the 8th, the symposium about 5 police and government extremely interests myself and my 6 family. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I was going 8 to suggest that. It's towards the end of June and there may 9 be other things on the website that would be of particular 10 interest to you but I appreciate your submissions and 11 certainly understand your grief and -- 12 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: We thank you for your time 13 and we -- as I said to Mr. Millar, there will be very few 14 chances to express ourselves in the situation that happened 15 to our family with the loss of our son. 16 This was one of the things that, for a number 17 of years, my family has been in touch with the Dudley George 18 family. We have attended many, many things on their behalf 19 and shared an awful lot of thoughts and ideas and we've 20 looked for this day for quite some time. 21 Whether we have standing or not is something 22 we will await for but I concur with you, there is many other 23 things that might help us out through this process. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's hope that 25 happens.


1 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Thank you, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 3 much. 4 MR. MIKE NEUTZ: Thank you, everyone. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 6 much. I think that brings to a conclusion the applications 7 that we had scheduled for today. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, we have nine (9) more 9 applications scheduled for tomorrow morning starting at 9:30 10 and then there's the four (4) applications that could not 11 come until Friday that are going to be dealt with the Friday 12 morning starting at 10:30. So that's what we have for today. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 14 much. We're adjourned for the day then. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Hearing is adjourned 16 until tomorrow morning, Thursday, April 22nd, at 9:30 a.m. 17 18 --- Upon Adjourning at 2:17 p.m. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 2 3 Certified Correct, 4 5 6 7 8 ____________________ 9 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25