11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 20th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 KENT THOMAS SKINNER, Resumed 6 Continued Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Falconer 11 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 203 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 299 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 337 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 340 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 346 12 13 ROBERT ADAM GRAHAM, Sworn: 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 374 15 16 17 18 19 Certificate of Transcript 403 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1361 Transcript of Region 4, Wade Lacroix, 4 Brian Deevy, September 07, 1995. 18:45 5 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, Logger tape 6 number 7, Track 1, Disc 3 of 3. 75 7 P-1362 Document Number 1005295. Transcript of 8 Ken Deane cross- examination, page 133 9 and 134. 76 10 P-1363 Document Number 2003536. Statement and 11 handwritten notes : December 10, 1995 to 12 February 20, 1996. of Robert J. Goodall, 13 OPP Detective Inspector. 132 14 P-1364 Document Number 3000408. Answer to 15 Undertakings, June 19, 2003, Item 528. 202 16 P-1365 Reserved. 229 17 P-1366 Document Number 2005548. Resume of Sgt. 18 Robert Adam Graham. 374 19 P-1367 Handwritten notebook entries of Robert 20 Graham, February 16, 1995 382 21 P-1368 Handwritten notebook entries of Robert 22 Graham, July 29, 30, 31 , August 01, 23 02, 19, 20, 21 and 22, 1995 385 24 25
91 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1369 Document Number 2003547. Interview 4 Report, R. Graham re. July 29 to 5 August 02, 1995 392 6 P-1370 Handwritten notebook entries of 7 Robert Graham, August 31, September 8 01, 1995. 399 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
101 --- Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 KENT THOMAS SKINNER, Resumed 8 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning, Mr. Falconer. Good morning, everybody. 13 Just before you start I understand that 14 you've got a bad back and a number of us have had bad 15 backs over the course of this Inquiry so if you need to 16 stand up or stop just let us know. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, Mr. 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 22 morning. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Mr. Commissioner, 24 yesterday you made a direction in respect of a manner in 25 which I was questioning the Witness and I inappropriately
111 responded to your direction and I simply wanted to 2 apologize in respect of my response this morning. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Falconer. Let's just carry on. Thank you. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 8 Q: Good morning. 9 A: Good morning, sir. 10 Q: May I ask you to turn back to the 11 transcript that I had in front of you with respect to a 12 conversation that was had with your equivalent, the head 13 of the Barrie TRU team Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy. 14 I'd asked you about it yesterday and I had 15 one more area to cover off with you about it that I 16 didn't touch on yesterday. Do you have it in front of 17 you? 18 A: I believe I do, sir. 19 Q: All right. It says Region 4, it's a 20 conversation September 7th, 1995 at 18:45. 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: I'll just wait for the Commissioner 23 to -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 25 where I've got that. Just a minute, I'll find it. Okay,
121 I've got it. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4 Q: Thank you. Now what I want to ask 5 you is, you were quite candid with the Commission about 6 your view of the inappropriateness of the inquiries by 7 Lacroix and/or potentially, it says "Tex and the boys are 8 here" but -- but the inquiries by Lacroix, correct? 9 A: Inquiries by Lacroix, yeah. 10 Q: Yes. And what I wanted -- what I 11 didn't ask and -- and you also indicated why it was 12 inappropriate, if those inquiries had been made of you as 13 the senior officer of TRU, you see how these inquiries 14 are being made of the team leader of TRU the next day? 15 A: They're being asked of Brian Deevy 16 who's a team leader, yes. 17 Q: Of TRU? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: He's your equivalent? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: If they were asked of you as team 22 leader of TRU, these inappropriate inquiries, how would 23 you have responded? 24 A: I'm not sure I would have been aware 25 of the information, sir. If I was in Brian's place that
131 had the information -- 2 Q: That's right. 3 A: -- is that you're asking me? 4 Q: Whether you have the information or 5 not. If the inquiry's inappropriate, how would you 6 respond? 7 A: I would like to think I would respond 8 that that would be inappropriate for me to comment on. 9 Q: And when you say you'd like to think 10 that, is that your view that that's how you would have 11 dealt with this? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that's because, first of all, I 14 take it that if it's brought to your attention some of 15 your subordinates of TRU are present for the inquiries, 16 you'd want your subordinates at TRU to know that this 17 isn't right, correct? 18 You'd want them to know that you think 19 that it's not right, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Number 2, you'd want Lacroix to 22 know you think it's not right, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Because again you lead by example. 25 A: Well, sir, I think the potential of
141 that kind of information being exchanged would lead to 2 something we're facing right here. It's -- even -- if it 3 leaves the impression that it's inappropriate, not that 4 it isn't, but it leaves to the impression that there's 5 something else there which -- 6 Q: And I'm glad that you said not that 7 it isn't because it's not just perceptions. In fact 8 aside from creating a perception of -- of impropriety it 9 actual is improper because information relevant to the 10 investigation is passed onto witnesses, right? 11 A: Right. Correct. 12 Q: Okay. Now and we dealt with that and 13 that's not where I want to retread. What I want to ask 14 you is this. 15 Could you please direct yourself to the 16 last line -- two (2) of the first page where Staff 17 Sergeant Deevy, your equivalent says, in answer to: 18 "We want to know what the inquiries are 19 from Wade Lacroix." 20 Brian Deevy says: 21 "Do we know specifically what the 22 injuries were on the three (3) 23 suspects?" 24 And then he appears to speak in the 25 background:
151 "Oh yeah, that was the guy shot in the 2 ass. I heard that one (1) guy had some 3 type of head injury but I'm not sure if 4 I heard this in the press or where I 5 heard it. 6 And the other guy I heard got shot in 7 the chest, the left side of the chest 8 above the heart, two (2) -- two (2) 9 shots that's what I heard. I don't 10 know where I heard it, it could be a 11 crock of shit." 12 Do you see all that? 13 A: I do. 14 Q: Do you see anywhere where Staff 15 Sergeant Brian Deevy, your equivalent, tells Wade Lacroix 16 or Tex and the boys that these inquiries are 17 inappropriate? 18 A: No. Not in that conversation, sir. 19 Q: All right. And then you see: 20 "Q: And you don't know what the 21 autopsy results are or --" 22 Answer, by Brian Deevy: 23 "I don't know that yet. And as far as 24 the type of round or anything, they 25 don't know that yet."
161 Again, it's fair to say that aside from 2 Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy indicating he can't help him 3 with that information because they don't know, do you see 4 any reference to it being an inappropriate inquiry? 5 A: No. 6 Q: You'd agree with me, and again I'm 7 asking you to give evidence in respect of your position 8 as team leader of TRU and your equivalent's position, 9 that is Staff Sergeant Brian Deevy, he ought to have 10 indicated to the person making these inquiries that it 11 was inappropriate to make them, correct? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: And as the team leader of TRU you'd 14 agree with me that he ought not to have in fact told them 15 information about what injuries he knew or didn't know 16 about, correct? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Now, I want to go on to something I 19 wanted to understand from you in terms of a conversation 20 that you had with Ken Deane. You testified about this in 21 answer to questions from Ms. Vella. And if you'll give 22 me an indulgence, Mr. Commissioner, I just want to get 23 the proper site for this. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
171 Q: My apologies, Mr. Commissioner. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And what I'm trying to direct your 6 attention to and I apologize because I lost the tab 7 number is a conversation you have with Kenneth Deane in 8 which there is a discussion about the revelation of the 9 automatic gunfire and how Carson is going to handle it. 10 And I apologize, the tab number, it's in 11 and around Tab 16 but when I turned it up it does not 12 appear to be the right one. 13 A: In my tabs, sir, I think that's Tab 9 14 if I'm -- if we're on the right -- 15 Q: Tab 9? 16 A: -- talking about the right -- same 17 thing. 18 Q: That's right. Thank you very much. 19 I appreciate it. 20 All right. It's Exhibit P-1343 and it's 21 Region 3 that appears at Tab 9 of Commission Counsel 22 documents. This is a September 6th, 1995, conversation 23 at 7:27 in the morning. 24 Now, if I could at the same time ask you 25 this, sir, you -- you testified yesterday that you had
181 this conversation with Kent Skinner -- I'm sorry, with 2 Ken Deane and that you testified about the references you 3 made to Mark Wright at page 2, do you remember talking 4 about that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now, it was your evidence as I 7 understand it that the reference to people doing things 8 differently in essence was a reference to Mark Wright 9 wanting to as a criminal investigator go in, investigate 10 the sounds of automatic gunfire and investigate it and 11 potentially make arrests; that was your point about Mark 12 Wright? 13 A: Yeah. I don't have a -- obviously 14 there were people from different units there all offering 15 different opinions on many different incidents that 16 happened. My recollection is that that's the type of 17 thing Mark was talking about. 18 Q: But looking at page 2 you -- looking 19 at page 2 of this and I'm just -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- trying to focus you so I can get 22 you back to your evidence of yesterday -- 23 A: All right. 24 Q: -- to Ms. Vella, it's the fourth 25 paragraph that says:
191 "KENT SKINNER: And we'll get him to 2 pick them up too so before he goes back 3 make sure he gets in touch with me 4 first." 5 A: All right. 6 "Other than that I think the automatic 7 weapons fire changes things around here 8 probably. 9 KEN DEANE: No doubt. 10 KENT SKINNER: There's other people 11 here who are wanting to do things but I 12 don't think that will happen. 13 KEN DEANE: Ah, Mark Wright? 14 KENT SKINNER: That'd be one (1) of 15 them." 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And do you see that? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And you were asked -- well, and -- 20 and Ms. Vella specifically said to you, I take it you 21 were -- or she asked it in a probably a more -- less 22 leading fashion than I'm about to say it but Mark Wright 23 was more aggressive and you -- and you differed with her 24 somewhat, correct? Your point -- 25 A: I think I did, yes --
201 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- to my recollection. 3 Q: And the way you differed from this 4 meaning that Mark Wright was more aggressive is you said, 5 No, Mark Wright just had a different approach as a 6 criminal investigator. He wanted to go in, investigate 7 the automatic gunfire that was heard and potentially make 8 arrests? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right. And that's your memory of it? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it's not about Mark Wright being 13 more aggressive or more difficult to control, right? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: It's not about that? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: It's about the notion that Mark 18 Wright in terms of the automatic gunfire wanted to go in, 19 investigate and make arrests? 20 A: That's my recollection. I think -- 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: -- he had a different focus. 23 Q: But that was the different focus? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Right. Now, you and I are agreed
211 that your knowledge of the incident was such that you 2 knew that prior to occupying the Park the occupiers had 3 been in the Military Base for a number of years? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You knew that? 6 A: I knew that. 7 Q: And there was no issue. You weren't 8 proposing to have TRU go into the Military Base? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: All right. And there was also no 11 issue about CMU going into the Park? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: You actually told CMU, you personally 14 told CMU, don't go in the Park? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Kent Skinner personally told that to 17 CMU? 18 A: Yeah. I relayed that from Inspector 19 Carson, yes. 20 Q: Right. So there was no notion of CMU 21 going into the Army Base Camp? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: That's two-fold remote, right. 24 A: Correct. That -- on the -- on the 25 night of the 6th, yes.
221 Q: Or the 5th, or the 4th, going into 2 the Army Base Camp. There was no notion of CMU going 3 into -- 4 A: That was not in the plan, no. 5 Q: No. The Army Base Camp was Federal 6 property that had nothing to do with why you were there, 7 correct? 8 A: True. 9 Q: All right. And did Mark Wright ever 10 tell you, I -- I want to go into the Army Base Camp? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No, that -- that's completely 13 inconsistent with your memory of anything that happened, 14 correct? 15 A: Yes, yes. 16 Q: Right. There was no notion of ever 17 going in and making an arrest at the Army Base Camp, 18 right? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Could Exhibit P-426 be put in front 21 of the Witness. It's the typed scribe notes. 22 Just the -- the full -- I'm just going to 23 read you a three (3) liner; it's not going to necessitate 24 everybody turning them up. I'm at page 47. It's an 25 entry for September 5th, 1995, at 23:43. It's the
231 September 5th, 1995, typed scribe notes P-426 at page 47, 2 time 23:43. 3 Do you have that in front of you? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: All right. This is a reference to 6 the hearing of the automatic gunfire and it states the 7 following, quote: 8 "Radio message of large amounts of 9 automatic gunfire back in Army Camp. 10 Inspector Linton, can you -- Wayde 11 Jacklin confirm what they mean, 12 automatic?" 13 Constable Parks replies: 14 "Yeah. Fully automatic. One (1) 15 firearm, fifty (50) to a hundred (100) 16 rounds." 17 Constable Parks advised: 18 "It's way back in the Camp." 19 Do you see that? 20 A: Yes. Yes, I do. 21 Q: All right. Now, that's the report of 22 the automatic gunfire, all right? Do you see that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the automatic gunfire is reported 25 as being way back in the Camp. Did you know that?
241 A: No, sir. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I didn't know if it came from the 4 Camp or the Park or which direction it came from. 5 Q: Now in addition, during his 6 examination-in-chief Mr. Millar asked Mark Wright about 7 his knowledge about the gunfire that morning, the morning 8 of September 6th because what happened so you know the -- 9 the gist of the evidence is Mark Wright comes back on 10 duty early in the morning on September 6th and gets the 11 briefing about the automatic gunfire, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And in particular -- and I'm just 14 simply setting this up so I can read a very small 15 passages to you. In particular he asks Mark Wright about 16 his conversation; that is Derry Millar asked Mark Wright 17 on February 23rd, 2006, at pages 179 and 180, he asks 18 Mark Wright, you know you had a conversation with other 19 people about the automatic gunfire and Mark Wright says, 20 That's right, yes, I did. And then here's what -- what 21 they exchanged. 22 It's a line -- it's page 179 February 23 23rd, 2006, Derry Millar's examination of Mark Wright. 24 And this is a conversation that Mark Wright is having 25 with the Crown about the latest information, line 24 page
251 179: 2 "Q: And then if you could turn to 3 page 18 at the top of the page there's 4 a reference." 5 And they're in a transcript between 6 McCabe, who's the Crown Attorney, and Mark Wright. 7 Quote: 8 "Yeah, Christ, if it's like we were -- 9 if we have to give that out okay, but 10 we had a report of automatic weapon 11 fire in the Park." Close quotes. 12 And Derry Millar then asks, quote: 13 "Now that's the report that you 14 received was automatic weapon fire in 15 the Army Camp." 16 Mark Wright answers: 17 "Right. 18 Q: And so that you simply misspoke 19 yourself?" 20 Answer by Mark Wright: 21 "Right. 22 Q: You told them that. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I take it you appear to be 25 reluctant to have this information be
261 made public." 2 Right. And then they -- they have a 3 discussion about that and then the conversation goes onto 4 other information on the following page. 5 But Mark Wright acknowledges, (a) that his 6 information was consistent with the information in the 7 scribe notes. That the shots, the automatic gunfire, 8 came from the Army Camp. 9 Do you hear that in what I've just read to 10 you? 11 A: I heard it. 12 Q: Right. And we know that that's in 13 fact the information, way back in the Army Camp, right? 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: Now if you could turn to that 16 transcript we were working on, I'm sorry to flip you 17 around but I -- I need the transcript P-1343, the two (2) 18 pager between you and Deane. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Where you describe people wanting to 21 do things but I don't think that will happen? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Right. By the time you have this 24 conversation at 7:27 there's absolutely no doubt that you 25 already know that Mark Wright's heard about the automatic
271 gunfire; that's your point to Ms. Vella yesterday. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Right. And it's your -- your 4 recollection of what Mark Wright wanted to do is that he 5 wanted to go back and make arrests in respect of that 6 automatic gunfire; that's what you told Susan Vella. 7 A: Not necessarily the same, You go into 8 the Park to make arrest -- make investigations into it 9 and potentially make arrests. 10 Q: Well with respect, sir, I can take 11 you back to yesterday's transcript that you told Ms. 12 Vella that Mark Wright wanted to go in there, investigate 13 and if appropriate make arrests. 14 Do you -- do you -- 15 A: I wasn't referring to going into the 16 Park to investigate and make arrests. 17 Q: Oh, all right. And you're saying 18 that Mark Wright wanted to make arrests in respect of 19 automatic gunfire from way back in the Army Camp? 20 A: No, what I'm saying, sir, is his 21 focus would have been on investigation and arrest because 22 he's a criminal investigator. 23 Q: Do you think Mark Wright wanted to 24 make arrests in respect of automatic gunfire set off way 25 back in the Army Camp? Is that what you're saying?
281 A: My recollection is that his focus was 2 in the area of an investigation, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 4 how useful this exploration -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I'm about to 6 get there. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is, I'm 8 really not. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I know, but I'm 10 about to get there if you'd bear with me -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you? 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- through a 13 question or two (2). 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: Is it possible, sir, you're doing 17 your best to -- to reconstruct what you recall about why 18 Mark Wright had a different position than Carson? 19 Are you just -- are you doing your best to 20 put that together in terms of ten (10) years ago? 21 A: I'm not sure I understand your 22 question, sir. 23 Q: All right, let me rephrase it this 24 way. You've testified that what you didn't mean when you 25 said, "Other people here who want to do things but I
291 don't think that will happen", what you didn't mean by 2 that was that Mark Wright was more aggressive. You said 3 that. 4 A: I -- I don't think he was aggressive, 5 sir. Anything I saw Mark do was in line with the 6 objective of the -- of the mission statement. 7 Q: It wasn't about Mark Wright sort of 8 being more difficult to control; it wasn't that? 9 A: Mark was not difficult to control in 10 my viewpoint, sir. 11 Q: As far as you were concerned, he was 12 a steady individual? 13 A: Yeah, he was passionate, outspoken. 14 Q: But a steady individual? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And so was John Carson? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So it wasn't about trying to draw 19 distinction between one being steadier than the other; 20 that wasn't about that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. All right let's read on at what 23 you say at page 2. 24 "KENT SKINNER: There's other people 25 here who are wanting to do things but I
301 don't think that will happen. 2 KEN DEANE: Ah, Mark Wright? 3 KENT SKINNER: That would be one of 4 them. 5 KEN DEANE: How about Carson? 6 KENT SKINNER: He's a little more 7 steady." 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yeah. Now on September 6th, 1995 at 10 7:27 when you were talking to Kent -- to Ken Deane about 11 Mark Wright, you described him as less steady than John 12 Carson, right; that's what you said? 13 A: I suppose if you want to -- if you 14 turn that around you could look -- view it from that, 15 sir, but -- 16 Q: Well I -- 17 A: -- that's not my intent in this 18 conversation. 19 Q: Okay let me do the exact words you 20 used so that I capture your exact intent. Do you -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 22 sure, Mr. Falconer, that this is leading to anything 23 useful. I really don't see the value of this exploration 24 at all. I mean you've made some points and I can't see 25 where you're going from here.
311 I mean, isn't it possible for me to draw 2 an inference from what we've heard that when he says 3 "more steady", that's all he said. 'More steady' it 4 means perhaps Mark Wright was steady and Carson was more 5 steady. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, 8 where are you going with this? 9 I mean, how much time is this particular 10 issue worth exploring in this Inquiry? 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I don't expect to 12 be more than a minute or two (2). 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you've 14 already been close to a half hour. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: With this issue? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 17 haven't done much else, you just did a little bit at the 18 beginning that you did yesterday. I mean it's a half 19 hour. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I understand. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm just 22 trying to pay attention to, you know, you estimated a 23 considerable amount of time for your examination and 24 that's fine if you're asking useful, relevant, helpful 25 questions. If you spend a half hour on something that's
321 so on the fringe it's hard for me to justify it. 2 So I'm just saying what else do you have 3 to do at this point? 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 6 Q: Would you agree with me, Mr. Skinner, 7 that if the second in command at Ipperwash was 8 inappropriately aggressive in terms of how he discharged 9 his duties that would be problematic for the integrity of 10 the operation? 11 A: It could be, sir, but I didn't -- I 12 never saw the second in command at this operation be 13 anything but making his actions towards the peaceful 14 resolution of this occurrence. 15 Q: And would you agree with me that the 16 reference to John Carson being more steady is a reference 17 you made in relation to him being more steady than Mark 18 Wright? 19 A: John Carson is a very calm, very 20 intelligent, very deliberate individual with a lot of 21 experience as an incident commander and I think yeah, 22 he's -- he's a very steady individual. 23 Q: And my question to you was, that that 24 description was made in relation to Mark Wright who you 25 described differently in contrast to John Carson,
331 correct? 2 Right here in this transcript at page 2 3 you make the point to your second in command that John 4 Carson's second in command is somebody who wants to do 5 things differently, right? 6 A: As I said I think his focus was 7 different than mine at the time. 8 Q: And you know, testifying here today, 9 if you acknowledge that you found Mark Wright to be 10 someone more aggressive who wanted to take a different 11 role than the steady John Carson that that would hurt the 12 integrity or the appearance of the operation. You know 13 that. 14 A: I didn't find that though, sir. I 15 never found that. 16 Q: You recall answering my questions not 17 minutes ago before I drew your attention to your 18 description of John Carson as more steady, you recall 19 answering my questions saying that you thought they were 20 both equally steady? Do you remember telling that to the 21 Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 23 remember him saying that they were both equally steady. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't remember saying 25 that either.
341 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 2 remember that. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The evidence given 4 by the Witness five (5) to eight (8) minutes ago -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is not 6 -- this is going -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- was I asked the 8 Witness -- I asked the Witness if -- if you wanted me to 9 finish? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I asked the Witness 12 if it was a question of one (1) of them being more steady 13 than the other and the Witness specifically testified 14 before I drew his attention to page 2 that he thought 15 they were both steady. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, yes, 17 both steady. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. Did you -- do 19 you know -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That doesn't 21 mean that one (1) couldn't be more steady than the other. 22 I mean how much is this worth? 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. I'll 24 move on. 25
351 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: You described Mark Wright as dynamic? 3 A: He's an energetic individual, yes. 4 Q: And -- and would you agree with me 5 that this notion of a calm, thoughtful individual the way 6 you described John Carson is an important hallmark of a 7 decision maker who has to make decisions in the heat of 8 the moment? 9 A: It's important for someone to reflect 10 on all the information they get before they make their 11 decision, yes. 12 Q: And in terms of how you encountered 13 Mark Wright that wasn't the first words you used to 14 describe him were they, a thoughtful individual -- 15 A: Well -- 16 Q: -- who takes the time. That -- 17 those weren't the first words you used to describe him. 18 When you talked to Ms. Vella you talked about him being 19 dynamic, do you remember? 20 A: Yes, yes. 21 Q: You talked about energy? Do you 22 remember that? 23 A: Him being passionate, yes. 24 Q: Yeah. You talked about passionate, 25 right?
361 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: But didn't explain the thoughtful, 3 slow, deliberate side did you? 4 A: That didn't -- I didn't express that, 5 no, sir. 6 Q: No. All right. I'll move on. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: You testified on a number of 11 occasions that you received information but you had no 12 reason, in essence, to question the reliability of the 13 information; it was passed on to you and you acted on it, 14 correct? 15 A: Which information are you referring 16 to, sir? 17 Q: I'm referring to Natives with 18 baseball bats trashing a car. I'm referring to Natives 19 having imitation AK-47's, Molotov cocktails, long arms. 20 A: Yes, I received that -- 21 Q: You remember all those things? 22 A: I received that information, yes. 23 Q: And you had no reason to question its 24 reliability? 25 A: No, sir.
371 Q: And that was the gist of what you 2 told the Commissioner? 3 A: Yes, sir. I had to take the 4 information as it's given to me. 5 Q: In fact, what you told Ms. Vella, is 6 you used the words that there was a probability in your 7 mind that this information was accurate. 8 You used the word 'probability'. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Would you agree with me that there is 11 a distinction between good intelligence and bad 12 intelligence? 13 A: Well, there's a distinction between 14 good information and bad information, sir. I think 15 intelligence and information are two (2) different 16 things. 17 Intelligence has some level of 18 confirmation to it, as opposed to information. 19 Q: Well, you testified that this 20 information, whether it's the trashing the car with 21 baseball bats by Natives or the possession by the 22 occupiers of imitation AK-47's, Molotov cocktails, scoped 23 hunting rifles, that this information had a probability 24 of being reliable and you had no reason to question it. 25 You were acting on it.
381 So it was fair to say that you saw this as 2 intelligence, right? 3 A: No, it's not, sir. It's -- 4 Q: Oh. 5 A: -- fair to say that it's information 6 that came to another officer's attention that they were 7 passing on to me. 8 Q: And you know and you accept, I take 9 it, that some kinds of information can just be pure 10 rumour-mongering, right? 11 A: Sometimes information can be found 12 out later to be not accurate or inaccuracies within it. 13 Q: Well, in fact, as an experienced 14 officer, I put it to you there are times when you hear 15 information being passed around that on its face you know 16 is simply nonsense, right? That happens? 17 A: I suppose you might hear rumours and 18 stuff, sir, but in a situation like a TRU team occurrence 19 per se, information being passed to the Incident 20 Commander or passed to a team leader, it's not been my 21 experience that I would immediately dismiss that kind of 22 information. 23 Q: Accepting you wouldn't immediately 24 dismiss it, would you agree with me that information can 25 fall in several categories?
391 There can be information that appears good 2 and reliable on its face and information that on its face 3 is suspect? 4 A: Yes, that -- there certainly is 5 potential there. 6 Q: All right. And would you also agree 7 with me that one of the methods for making the 8 distinction between good information and bad information 9 is proper intelligence gathering and analytical 10 techniques; would you agree with that? 11 A: Yes. Investigating the information 12 you -- that's been received. 13 Q: And I take it your approach in this 14 matter was to simply assume that that was being done; is 15 that correct? 16 A: It's not my role at that time, sir, 17 to investigate the intelligence or the information that's 18 received. 19 Q: But you assumed that that was being 20 done, correct? 21 A: I would assume that if someone was 22 passing that information, they'd made some effort to 23 verify it or that time constraints permitted -- or caused 24 them to pass the information along as quickly as they 25 could.
401 Q: Because it's fair to say that this 2 kind of information is information you're expected to 3 incorporate and act on, right? 4 A: It's certainly the kind of 5 information that would affect our actions, yes. 6 Q: So you'd want to know that it was 7 good information, versus bad information? 8 A: I -- well, if that -- if you had the 9 time to make that investigation beforehand, yes. 10 Certainly, if the information comes to light, you know, 11 very close to the time of your occurrence when you're 12 about to deploy, that information's going to get passed 13 along. 14 We aren't going to wait for that 15 information to be investigated. 16 Q: Let me ask you this: Wouldn't you 17 expect, if you're being passed information by senior 18 officers, like the head of ERT, Stan Korosec, that if 19 this was information that was unconfirmed, unverified and 20 not checked out, that he'd let you know? 21 A: I suppose in the manner he expressed 22 it that, you know, this information came from so and so, 23 that that may lead me to understand that. 24 Q: But -- 25 A: I don't -- it's not been my
411 experience that I would get information from an ERT 2 leader and he would tell me if that was verified or 3 unverified information. Unless it was something that 4 was witnessed by his officers, I would take it as a 5 probability. 6 If it was information being passed along 7 by a civilian who said something or information they 8 received somewhere. Unless it had been confirmed by a 9 police officer, I would consider it a probability. 10 Q: You would consider it a probability? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Unless it had been confirmed by a 13 police officer? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Then it would be a certainty? 16 A: It could be depending on what he 17 found, yes. 18 Q: Right. So if information is 19 unconfirmed or unverified, there is still a probability 20 to that information; is that right? 21 A: Certainly. If you haven't confirmed 22 it, sir, it may be true, it may not be true. 23 Q: That's why I'm asking about the word 24 'probability' sir. Probability tends to mean it's more 25 likely to be true than not. You know that.
421 A: Yes. 2 Q: It's not just a possibility, it's a 3 probability, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Right. So you're saying that when -- 6 when faced with information that's unverified or 7 unconfirmed -- or am I misunderstanding you? Am I 8 misunderstanding you? 9 A: No, sir. You're -- we're referring 10 to this circumstance where we had heard the sound -- 11 officers had heard the sound of automatic gunfire the 12 previous day and now I receive information of the type of 13 weapon that could do that -- make that sound so the 14 information to me becomes probable. 15 Q: Now, what I would like to analyse and 16 understand is how you -- if at all create a filter for 17 this information as it's passed onto your TRU members. 18 First of all, do you pass onto your TRU 19 members that it's your understanding that this 20 information has not been confirmed or verified? Do you 21 tell them that? 22 A: No, sir. I say we have information 23 that 'X'. 24 Q: Nothing else, fair? 25 A: Correct.
431 Q: And for example, if the list of 2 weapons comes from someone who hasn't been at the Army 3 Camp for a year and that same someone is actually someone 4 with an axe to grind, a civilian with an axe to grind 5 against the occupiers, this would all be information that 6 would go to the reliability of that information, correct? 7 A: It could, yes. 8 Q: Right. But you wouldn't yourself 9 know that there's any of these potential problems or 10 deficiencies with the information, right? You didn't 11 know that? 12 A: I didn't know that. 13 Q: And in fact I'm going to suggest to 14 you that based on my review of what Korosec says to you 15 in the transcript, there's not even a reference to who 16 saw the weapons, right? There's not actually a reference 17 to who saw them, who eye-balled them? 18 A: No, sir, there isn't. 19 Q: There's just, We have information 20 they have these weapons. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: Based on what you passed on, it could 23 have been a police officer who saw the weapons or not, 24 right? 25 A: It could have been.
441 Q: Right. So -- 2 A: Although I -- 3 Q: -- for example -- 4 A: I'm sorry. 5 Q: Go ahead. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 7 to finish your answer. 8 THE WITNESS: I would expect, sir, that 9 if a police officer had seen it, he would have said for 10 instance, Checkpoint 'B' reported seeing. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 13 Q: You made no inquiries, you don't know 14 one way or the other, correct? 15 A: I didn't inquire. 16 Q: No. And you didn't pass on to your 17 people which category this was. Weapons that had been 18 seen by police officers or not, right? 19 A: Correct. I pass that on as 20 information received. 21 Q: What I want to ask you about then is 22 in the circumstances of this information received where 23 it's not categorized into good information or bad 24 information, it's fair for someone like Ken Deane to 25 operate on that information being reliable because lives
451 are at stake; isn't that true? 2 A: Well, I think the information is part 3 of what he has to take into consideration when he's out 4 on the ground, yes. 5 Q: Well as a member of Alpha team, right 6 -- and -- and they're also called IAD. 7 A: P. 8 Q: IAP? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Immediate Action...? 11 A: It stands for Immediate Action Plan 12 is what it actually stands for. 13 Q: Okay. But they're also called that? 14 A: Yes, the IAP team. The team 15 responsible for the Immediate Action Plan 16 Q: All right. As a member of Alpha, the 17 IAP team, his role was to actually provide protection to 18 these thirty (30) to forty (40) officers who are burdened 19 or laden with riot gear and who are not trained or setup 20 to defend themselves against gunfire, correct? 21 A: Well, because of their equipment it 22 makes it difficult, yes, sir. 23 Q: So his role is to protect these 24 thirty (30) to forty (40) people? 25 A: That was his role.
461 Q: In the dark? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the information he has is 4 information that's been passed on by you through the 5 channels to him, yes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But he has to treat the information 8 as reliable because he has no basis to treat it 9 otherwise, right? 10 A: He -- he has to treat it as it is a 11 potential. He has -- he has the information the same way 12 as I have about the sound of the automatic gunfire 13 previously. He now has the information that we -- about 14 the weapons and you have to take that all into 15 consideration when you're out there, yes. 16 Q: But you didn't know the automatic 17 gunfire was heard way back in the Army Camp? 18 A: Well, sir, I didn't know and there 19 are no barriers between the Army Camp and the Park so it 20 wouldn't be relevant to me if it was in the Camp or the 21 Park. You could easily traverse between the two (2) 22 places. 23 Q: Well, in fact, the people who have 24 access to way back in the Army Camp are hardly just the 25 occupiers are they? I mean, we're now -- we're now into
471 a huge tract of land -- 2 A: Well, you're -- 3 Q: -- where people hunt. 4 A: -- you're absolutely correct but not 5 many people hunt with automatic weapons, sir. 6 Q: So the automatic gunfire heard way 7 back in the Army Camp, you don't know and neither does 8 Ken Deane know that it actually wasn't automatic gunfire 9 heard in the Park? You don't know that, right? 10 A: I'm sorry, sir? 11 Q: Your impression is that the automatic 12 gunfire was heard in the Park, correct? 13 A: It was heard in the area, sir. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: I don't know if it was the Park or 16 the Camp. 17 Q: And number 2, Ken Deane has no idea 18 that the list of weaponry comes from someone who hasn't 19 been to the Camp for at least a year and is a civilian 20 with an axe to grind against the occupiers? He doesn't 21 know that? 22 A: We didn't know that. 23 Q: In all the circumstances the first 24 report that happens is one by Ken Deane where he sees 25 someone with what he perceive to be a weapon in their
481 hands as he goes down the road. Do you remember? 2 A: It was something that could be a 3 weapon, yes. 4 Q: He says it could be a weapon and he 5 describes it as a long arm or a bow, correct? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 7 minute. Yes, Ms. Jones...? 8 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 9 object to the question in what Inspector Skinner 10 testified to was he received a report from Officer Deane 11 on the radio and he explained -- Officer Skinner had 12 explained that he would have expected Officer Deane as a 13 senior member of that team to be responsible for 14 communications not that everything Officer Deane 15 communicated was his own observations. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's correct. I 17 asked specifically because this was an issue whether he 18 knew who saw the -- the weaponry and that was the answer. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Okay. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm going to ask 21 that -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- in answer to My 24 Friend's objections I want to direct you, Mr. 25 Commissioner, to pages 133 and 134 of the criminal trial
491 transcript of Kenneth Deane which I understand is being 2 filed as an exhibit in these proceedings. 3 Pages 133 to 134, it's questions and 4 answers of Kenneth Deane in cross-examination by Mr. 5 Scott. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We're at Tab 39, 7 Exhibit P-1359. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 9 minute, let us turn that up. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: This is of Kenneth 11 Deane -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Not -- 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh, Ken Deane -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 16 Deane's testimony in the binder? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's not in the 18 binder -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Could we pull up 20 from the database pages 133 and 134 of the Deane criminal 21 trial? I'll move onto another area and we'll put it up 22 on the screen in a minute. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Do you have an Inquiry 24 Document Number because I don't have it? 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Inquiry Document
501 Number 5001170. This is where Mr. Scott specifically 2 asks Mr. Deane about what he saw in the first place. 3 So I'll -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you have 5 it there how long is it? 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I'll move -- 7 I'll move on. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, how long 9 is the passage that you were going to read? 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's -- it's two 11 (2) pages, pages 133 and 134 but the portion that I 12 pulled up to be -- to be honest with you, Mr. 13 Commissioner, is I've flipped it open. I've got the 14 opening question, it says: 15 "Alpha radios seeing person on roadway. 16 Something seen in individual's hand 17 which could be a long gun or bow. And 18 you told us that indeed that's what you 19 did, you communicated to Staff Sergeant 20 Skinner that initially you saw somebody 21 with what might have [and then I'm 22 missing 134]" 23 And -- but the point is Mr. Scott clearly 24 is encapsulating evidence that Deane gave at his trial 25 that he saw this but I've -- all I'm inviting Ms. Vella
511 to do is when she pulls it up we can all see it that this 2 was the evidence -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- of Deane at his 5 criminal trial. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 9 Q: And it's fair -- it's fair to say -- 10 it's fair to say just so we're clear about this, Ken 11 Deane is going down the road as part of Alpha team and 12 there's four (4) individuals, right? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Two (2) individuals on one (1) side 15 of the road, and two (2) individuals on the other side of 16 the road, right? 17 A: I don't know where they were located 18 on the road, sir. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: I don't know - if you're talking 21 about the Alpha team, I -- 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: -- don't know if they were split two 24 (2) and two (2) on either side of the road; I don't know 25 that.
521 Q: All right. And do you know if anyone 2 was beside Ken Deane -- 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: -- when he made the radio reports? 5 A: I don't know. 6 Q: Did you hear any radio reports from 7 any individual other than Ken Deane making reference to 8 somebody with a long gun or a bow? 9 A: No, the radio communications from the 10 Alpha team were from Ken Deane. 11 Q: And in terms of the usage of the 12 radio, they each had a radio -- portable radio set that 13 would have permitted them to have direct communications 14 with you? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And permitted them also to have 17 communications with one another? 18 A: Amongst each other, yes. 19 Q: And you would hear that? 20 A: If they used the radio. If they may 21 be communicating verbally, I wouldn't hear it. 22 Q: No, but -- 23 A: If they didn't -- 24 Q: -- that's not what I asked. 25 A: -- press the mic.
531 Q: You hear the radio communications -- 2 A: No, sir. As I said, Ken Deane was 3 the only one I heard from the Alpha team. 4 Q: So it's fair to say that the one 5 thing you do know, is no other member of the Alpha team 6 radioed prior to Ken Deane radioing this to you, no other 7 member of the Alpha team radioed that they made such an 8 observation, correct? 9 A: Not that I heard. 10 Q: Right. And it would be something 11 that you'd be listening for. I just saw a guy with a 12 long arm or a bow; that's something you'd hear and be 13 listening for, from your TRU team members? 14 A: Well, sir, I wasn't a radio operator 15 at the time. I'm not listening to specifically every 16 single radio communication. I -- I missed some of the 17 radio communication because my attention would be drawn 18 elsewhere. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 20 Jones, you have some light to shed on this? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, just 22 in terms of if it's of assistance, the other thing that 23 Mr. Falconer might refer to, for example, is the 24 anticipated evidence of Mark Beauchesne. 25 My concern, Mr. Commissioner, is a
541 proposition is being put to this Witness about somebody 2 who saw what -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and he's clearly not 5 the person who's in a position at all to say anything 6 about that, because he's not there and he's not on the 7 road. 8 We have coming up, Officer Beauchesne, and 9 I anticipate he will testify. He's the person who -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's the one 11 who saw -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: -- makes the 13 observation. He's the person who communicated to Officer 14 Deane in the expectation that Officer Deane would radio 15 that observation in. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: So there's that coming 18 down the pipes, Mr. Commissioner. But in terms of asking 19 this Witness to try and confirm who saw what down on the 20 road versus who saw something and then someone else 21 communicated, I don't think he can help you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 23 you're right then, Ms. Jones, regardless of what Mr. 24 Deane may or may not have said, yes. 25
551 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless he 4 says he saw it. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Ms. Vella and Mr. 9 Millar kindly pulled up the criminal trial transcript 10 that I was referring to. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, 15 again, we have -- we have this section of the transcript 16 from Officer Deane's trial. I'm not sure that gets you 17 anywhere. 18 The underpinning is, who sees the 19 individual versus who reports it; this Witness can't help 20 with that. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 22 why it's important to your questioning of this Witness to 23 establish that point at this point. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, it turns out 25 that --
561 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It might 2 turn on it -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- clerk can't be 4 faulted for leaving out one thirty-four (134). It seems 5 it's off the database, in terms of where we've looked. 6 So I will wait until we track it from the 7 database, the missing page, before I respond -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: You won't be able to. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- to Ms. Jones. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If it's not in the 11 database, we can't get it, but... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If it's not in the 16 SuperText database, then I don't know -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What do 18 mean? A page of the transcript -- 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- how we're going to 20 be able -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is 22 missing? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- to pull it up, 24 unfortunately. It's -- the transcript in the database is 25 missing two (2) pages. The two (2) pages that Mr.
571 Falconer wants. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The question -- I 3 mean, it's quite ironic, Mr. Commissioner, because the 4 last line is: 5 "You communicated to Staff Sergeant 6 Skinner that initially you saw somebody 7 with what might have..." 8 And then it stops. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where -- 10 okay. 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's Mr. Scott -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you 13 ever seen the pages that follow that? 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That -- the next 15 page -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But have you 17 ever seen that page? 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- is missing from 19 my materials. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you 21 ever had that page? 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, so -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's why I raised 25 it the way I did.
581 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 4 think you got to move on with this Witness. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, that's right. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, that's fair. 8 Hopefully, we'll track it down. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, carry 10 on. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 13 Q: Your answer to me, prior to Ms. 14 Jones' objection was to the effect that things might have 15 been said by others not on the radio. 16 A: Correct. Correct, I'm sorry. 17 Q: Then -- then I put it to you, fine, 18 but you were monitor -- you were in the TOC, yes? 19 A: Yes, I was. 20 Q: You were in the Tactical Operational 21 Centre, TOC? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 23 already asked this series of questions. You've already 24 asked this. Move on. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I am moving on.
591 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No but 2 you're going back over the questions you've already -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, because I -- 4 I'm seeking to challenge his credibility -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's all 6 right. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- on a claim, Mr. 8 Commissioner. So I'm -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 10 you're just rehashing what you -- 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, I'm not. I'm 12 about to -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 14 the impression I have. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- something -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 19 Q: The physical setup of TOC, you gave 20 some general broad lines to Ms. Vella, you said it was a 21 cube van. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I -- I'd like to put a little more 24 meat on that bone if I could. 25 A: Sure.
601 Q: You were in a cube van that is 2 basically a two (2) seater in the front with a separate 3 inaccessible box from the seats in the back for carrying 4 equipment, right? It's accessible only by the back door. 5 A: No, sir. It's open between the cab 6 and the box. 7 Q: It's open between the cab and the 8 box? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: All right. So in this two (2) seater 11 you're sitting in the passenger seat, yes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you have radio speaker behind 14 your head emitting sounds from CMU, yes? 15 A: No, it's the other way around, sir. 16 The -- the speaker in the front was -- the seat would be 17 the CMU one, the speaker in the back was the TRU radio. 18 Q: Both emitting sounds that you're 19 listening to. 20 A: Both emitting sounds that I could 21 hear from where I was, yes. 22 Q: And you actually not only hear 23 exchanges, you actually give and issue orders as a result 24 of what you hear. 25 A: True.
611 Q: And the first reference you hear that 2 someone's carrying or might be carrying a long arm or a 3 bow, a long gun or a bow, the first reference you hear to 4 that is from Staff Sergeant Deane -- I'm sorry, Sergeant 5 Deane. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Acting Sergeant Deane? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And the only part that we got a 10 little bit off the rails is when you seem to suggest that 11 was the first time you heard it but it might have been 12 said earlier on the radio; that was the part I was trying 13 to understand. 14 A: No, sir -- 15 Q: Is that what you meant to convey? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 17 what the impression I have -- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well that's fine. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for what 20 it's worth. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: If it's not what you meant to convey, 24 just tell me that. Is that what you meant to convey? 25 A: No, sir. You referenced that I would
621 have heard if it had been said. And my -- my -- 2 Q: On the radio. 3 A: Yes. And my response was I wasn't 4 constantly listening to the radio. 5 Q: In any event, your evidence comes 6 down to this. You hear this report of a long gun or a 7 bow and then Beauchesne, right, using night vision -- I 8 take it's a scope on his MP-5; is that correct? It's a 9 night vision scope? 10 A: I don't recall if Beau had a handheld 11 piece of night vision or if it was on his weapon, sir. I 12 honestly don't remember. 13 Q: All right. Using his night vision 14 ascertains that it's not? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Now, all in all what's happened, 17 whether it's Dean who sees it or Beauchesne who sees it 18 and we're going to get there eventually when we find the 19 pages I suggest to you, whether it's Beauchesne or 20 whether it's Deane, you have a situation that's somewhat 21 expected, isn't it that in the dark it's hard to tell the 22 difference between a stick, a long gun or a bow without 23 the assistance of night vision ware, right? 24 A: In the dark, yes, that's entirely 25 possible, absolutely.
631 Q: And it's a real danger that as 2 trained officers you have to be alive to. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And not everyone of your officers 5 carried night vision ware because of funding limitations, 6 right? 7 A: Yeah, we just didn't have the 8 equipment at that time, sir. 9 Q: For example, Ken Deane didn't have 10 night vision ware right? 11 A: He did not. 12 Q: And so in addition to the risk of 13 mistaking a stick or a gun or a bow, that risk is 14 enhanced because there are people, Alpha members, who 15 don't have night vision ware, agree? 16 A: It certainly would make it easier for 17 them if they had night vision, but yes, they had to be 18 cautious. 19 Q: Well, the risk is enhanced isn't it? 20 A: The risk is enhanced that they may 21 have a harder time identifying that? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: I suppose you could phrase it that 24 way, yes. 25 Q: And so the -- and the next thing that
641 happens is that Ken Deane discharges his firearm against 2 someone who certainly from every other perspective other 3 than him and maybe one other officer, wasn't carrying a 4 gun, right? 5 It -- there was never a finding of Dudley 6 George having a weapon? There was no weapon found, 7 right? Am I right? 8 A: I didn't do the investigation. To 9 the best of my knowledge there was no weapon found, yes. 10 Q: And so ultimately Ken Deane's 11 convicted at a trial that you testified at where his 12 version of events isn't accepted about seeing Dudley 13 George with a gun, correct? 14 A: That was the finding of the judge, 15 yes, sir. 16 Q: Yeah. So the risk starts when you 17 march in the dark, right? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's when the 20 first risk starts, isn't it? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 22 Falconer, I'm going to ask you politely, please just ask 23 questions. Don't make argument and don't -- 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- try to
651 put -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I mean 4 too much into one (1) question -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- because 7 it's too hard to answer it. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that that 11 chain of events we're talking about, first you have 12 information that isn't distinguished between good and 13 bad; remember we talked about that? 14 A: Yeah, we talked about that. 15 Q: Right. We have information that 16 isn't distinguished between good and bad as to whether 17 the occupiers have actual imitation AK-47's, long guns 18 with scopes or Molotov cocktails. 19 You have that information being passed 20 onto your people, right? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Then you have your people marching in 23 the dark without night vision in some cases, correct? 24 A: Some of them do not have night 25 vision, that's correct.
661 Q: Including Acting Sergeant Deane? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Then you have one (1) of your people 4 and we'll work it out later if it was actually Deane or 5 another member of the Alpha team, you have one (1) of 6 your people actually mistakenly identifying a stick as 7 either a long gun or a bow, right; that happens? 8 A: They identified it that it could be, 9 yes. 10 Q: Right. And then within minutes 11 Acting Sergeant Deane fatally kills someone on an 12 unaccepted premise that they were holding a gun, right? 13 Isn't that what happened? 14 A: That's what it was found, yes, sir. 15 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 16 Ken -- Ken Deane would have been grossly negligent if he 17 had not been worried, very worried that what he saw as a 18 stick in the dead of night was an AK-47. He would have 19 been negligent, wouldn't he have, because he had no way 20 of distinguishing -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You -- 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- between whether 23 the AK-47 -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, Mr. 25 Falconer, you ask a question and then you just keep
671 going. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sorry. Sorry. I 3 apologize. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I don't 5 see how anybody can -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No, no, that's 7 fair. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- respond 9 to your question. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll back up. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 13 Q: I'm going to suggest to you based on 14 the thin information passed onto Ken Deane he would have 15 been grossly negligent not to have been worried that that 16 stick was an AK-47 as he marched down in the dark? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As he 18 marched down in...? Just ask the question. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I just needed 20 to put him in the dark. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He wasn't marching. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We know 23 that. Just ask the question. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: As he crept, as he 25 walked.
681 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 Can you -- 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 5 Q: Would you agree with that? He would 6 have been grossly negligent if he hadn't worried that 7 that stick was an AK-47? 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, 9 again, I mean the rhetoric in the argument in this is 10 significant -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's just 12 necessary. It's unnecessary and it's unhelpful. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: And it is -- it's not 14 fair to the Witness -- 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll rephrase it. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and it is not -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, just-- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- a fair 19 representation in any event. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We -- we were able to 22 locate the page 30 -- 134 of the cross-examination -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- of Officer Deane. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right.
691 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Could we get that - 2 - is it possible to get it on the screen? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sure. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. If 5 the... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: For the benefit of My 10 Friends it's 1005295 -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Inquiry Document 13 Number. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: If this could be 15 handed to Mr. Commissioner, please? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you see 17 that? 18 THE WITNESS: I can -- I can see it. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's pretty 20 hard to see from your angle. 21 THE WITNESS: I can see it, sir, thank 22 you. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: If you go to 133, 24 please. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it page
701 133 that you wanted us to look at? 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes, start at 133 3 at the bottom. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I only have 5 133. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: You should have 7 both pages. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you 9 got -- 10 THE WITNESS: I have 134. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 12 should both have both so you take them, I can see them on 13 the screen. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Oh, all right. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You take 16 them, I'll look at them on the screen. You can read it, 17 what you want us to read, Mr. Falconer. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I believe I gave 23 Ms. Vella my 133. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
711 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I got it. So 2 focussing on line 27 at the bottom of 133 -- and, Mr. 3 Commissioner, with assistance from others, I now have a 4 133, 134 for you as well. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 8 Q: Do you see the question Mr. Scott, 9 the Crown Attorney, asked Ken Deane? 10 "Q: It says Alpha radios seeing 11 person on roadway. Something seen in 12 individual's hand which could be a long 13 gun or bow. And you told us that 14 indeed -- that's what you did. You 15 communicated to Staff Sergeant Skinner, 16 that initially you saw somebody with 17 what might have been a long gun or bow 18 and immediately thereafter you saw the 19 CMU unit divide and hide, correct? 20 A: Yes." 21 Now, that was put to Ken Deane who 22 acknowledged its accuracy; do you see that? 23 A: I see that. 24 Q: And you don't have any reason to 25 doubt that Ken Deane was accurate when he said he saw
721 that, do you? 2 A: I don't have any reason to doubt 3 this, sir. I don't know who saw it first. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: I only know what was reported on the 6 radio. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's all 8 this Witness can say. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 11 right. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 14 Q: Now, what I would like to understand 15 from you, sir, is what I initially posed to you and I 16 will try to, if I may use the vernacular, clean up in 17 terms of my question, Ken Deane, with the slim 18 information he had about the weapons, without any 19 qualifiers, Ken Deane would have been grossly negligent 20 in his duties, not to have worried that the sticks in 21 people's hands might be AK-47s as he approached the 22 occupiers in the dark. 23 A: That was -- his role, sir, was to be 24 there for the potential threat of firearms. Seeing 25 somebody was -- which -- what -- with -- I'm sorry,
731 seeing somebody with what could potentially be that, yes, 2 he was right to be cautious and have that confirmed. 3 Q: And you'd agree with me that in an 4 ideal world, right, the fact that the information about 5 AK-47s ultimately did not come in as a reliable a fashion 6 as it might have, would have been useful information for 7 you to have to pass on to your officers at the time? 8 That would have been, in an ideal world, a 9 useful thing to have passed on to them? 10 A: Well, sir, if I had known beforehand 11 the information was unreliable, if it was unreliable, I 12 wouldn't pass along unreliable information. 13 Q: And you never got an opportunity to 14 make that assessment? 15 A: It wasn't my role, sir. 16 Q: Well, you went at length to talk 17 about the role of independent thinkers as TRU members, 18 capable of thinking and leading for themselves. 19 A: Yes, sir, but given the timeframe the 20 -- from when the information was received to the time we 21 were deployed, I don't have time to go and investigate to 22 ascertain if the information is correct or not. 23 Q: I understand. 24 A: And it's not my role. 25 Q: Fair enough. I accept it's not your
741 role. But if you had known -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's already 3 said that. He's already answered that question. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What I'm going to 9 suggest, Mr. Commissioner, because of the references in 10 the transcripts now to both the exchange between Wade 11 Lacroix and Brian Deevy, that transcript, and the 12 references to pages 133, 134 of the Ken Deane trial, that 13 each of those documents be filed as exhibits for the 14 purposes of the record? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 16 there's no problem with that. Those two (2) pages should 17 be part of -- but they haven't been filed as an exhibit 18 yet? 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: As a precaution, 20 because it's missing in some parts of the database, I 21 think it might be the wise thing to do -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, and 23 the Deevy transcript hasn't been marked as an exhibit 24 yet? 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No.
751 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: So the Deevy 3 transcript, which is Region 8. No, I apologize, I've 4 been given the wrong -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Region 6 4. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Region 4. I'm was 8 going to -- September 7th, 1995. If that could be marked 9 as the next exhibit, please. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1361, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1361: Transcript of Region 4, Wade 13 Lacroix, Brian Deevy, 14 September 07, 1995. 18:45 15 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, 16 Logger tape number 7, Track 17 1, Disc 3 of 3. 18 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And then if the 20 pages 133, 134 of the Ken Deane trial which represents 21 the cross-examination of Ken Deane by Crown Attorney Ian 22 Scott, could be made the next exhibit, please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: The document number is, 24 on that? 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 1005295.
761 THE REGISTRAR: P-1362, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1362: Document Number 1005295. 4 Transcript of Ken Deane 5 cross- examination, page 133 6 and 134. 7 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 13 try to space out your cross-examination, Mr. Falconer. 14 I'd like to work with you on this if I could. 15 I assume from the time estimate that you 16 made that if it's accurate, you should be finished around 17 lunch time -- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's correct. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or 20 roughly. So we have to have a break sometime this 21 morning, whenever an appropriate time is. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I have about ten 23 (10) minutes in this area -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- fifteen (15)
771 minutes and then that might be the time for a break. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would 3 be good. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 6 Q: I want to direct your attention to 7 some questions asked by Mr. Millar of John Carson on May 8 31st, 2005 concerning intelligence gathering. And I 9 raise it first so that Mr. Millar and Ms. Vella might 10 have an opportunity to track it in the transcript. It's 11 page 191. And then I'll ask you a few questions before 12 we get to the actual transcript. 13 May 31st, 2005 evidence of John Carson 14 examination-in-chief pages 191 and on, and -- and we'll 15 get to it in a minute. 16 But I first want to ask you this: You're 17 now qualified, indeed, to act as an Incident Commander, 18 yes? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And in addition to that you've got 21 extraordinary experience as a team leader of TRU. 22 A: I have ten (10) years experience as a 23 team leader of TRU. 24 Q: So it's fair to say that in terms of 25 your experience, there is little or no doubt that you've
781 had to, in once capacity or another, utilize and resort 2 to intelligence, and had exposure to intelligence 3 gathering techniques, correct? 4 A: I don't know that I've had exposure 5 to the techniques of gathering intelligence, sir. 6 Q: Okay. Would you agree with me that 7 as an Incident Commander you're expected to put together 8 operations that have intelligence gathering components? 9 A: There are units within the operation 10 that are responsible for intelligence gathering, yes, 11 sir. 12 Q: And that furthermore, as the head of 13 TRU, you're suppose to operate on the basis of 14 intelligence, at times, passed onto you? 15 A: As any police officer is. 16 Q: So it's fair to say -- well, you say 17 as any police officer, but to be fair, sir, you're the 18 one in charge or were in charge of placing people into -- 19 in high risk situations where life and death are very 20 real possibilities, right? 21 That's actually the function of TRU. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So intelligence gathering and the 24 access to information becomes especially critical for 25 your job, yes?
791 A: Well certainly. 2 Q: And it was in September 1995? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. I had a few questions 5 that I wanted to ask you then. You reviewed the Project 6 Maple plan? 7 A: I did. 8 Q: All right. And you would have seen 9 that Project Maple provided, for among other things, for 10 an intelligence section to -- to simply identify people 11 that were in the Park. Are you aware of that? 12 A: I recall that to an extent, sir. 13 Q: But I'm -- I'm going to suggest to 14 you that intelligence, in general, can -- can be actually 15 a more sophisticated process than simply one of 16 identification, and that's why I asked if the transcript 17 of Mr. Millar's examination be -- be tracked down. 18 If you could -- if it could be put on the 19 board please. First of all, page 191 of May 31st, 2005. 20 Page 191, line 19. Now this question's asked twice so 21 we're going to skip past a few -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 191? 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Page 191, line 19. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER:
801 Q: Mr. Millar is asking Mr. Carson some 2 questions. 3 "Q: Now in your evidence the -- we 4 talked about intelligence and the use 5 of intelligence. And intelligence was 6 part of Operation Maple, at least in 7 terms of identifying people. And I 8 believe that you said you would not 9 make, back in 1995, an operational 10 decision based on intelligence." 11 Do you see that question? 12 A: I do, sir. 13 Q: All right. Now, immediately after, 14 now Deputy Commissioner Carson goes into another area 15 about a piece of information he wanted to clarify and Mr. 16 Millar brings him back to the intelligence issue. 17 And I -- and I -- what I wanted to do now 18 is ask you to -- to go to page 196, line 3. I apologize, 19 page 195, line 3. 195, line 3 because the question 20 simply continues after this sort of sidebar exchange. 21 Question 195 -- page 195 line 3: 22 "Q: Now if I could turn to the 23 question of intelligence, and I believe 24 that what we're talking about is back 25 in 1995 now, that your view, when we
811 look at Project Maple, Project Maple 2 provided under the Intelligence Section 3 for identification of people in the 4 Park and in the Camp; is that fair? 5 A: That was their primary role, yes. 6 Q: And that I believe you said that 7 you wouldn't back then make an 8 operational decision based on 9 intelligence? 10 A: No, intelligence is something that 11 I may use to confirm, deny, or support 12 other suppositions or facts. 13 Q: And that back in 1995 you were 14 more concerned about simply asking 15 people directly about issues. 16 A: Yes. And I think the situation's 17 a little different than most from the 18 point of view that we certainly had the 19 ability to know who the participants 20 were for the most part and we had a 21 number of officers who could provide us 22 some of the background information on - 23 - on some of the individuals because 24 the officers had worked their whole 25 career and some of them had grown up
821 there themselves. 2 Q: And would you agree that in the 3 period September 4th to September 6th 4 and afterwards, but particularly in the 5 period September 4th to 6th, there were 6 many rumours circulating in the 7 community on both sides? 8 A: That's fair. 9 Q: And the police heard rumours that 10 concerned them? 11 A: Oh, yes. 12 Q: And back in 1995 had you had any 13 specific training with respect to 14 intelligence? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And back from, so that with 17 respect to the intelligence aspects of 18 the project, you relied on Messrs 19 Richardson and Bell or Mr. Bell? 20 A: Yeah. Detective Sergeant Bell was 21 a supervisor of the London Intelligence 22 Unit. And so -- so he was a primary 23 contact. 24 Q: And it's my understanding..." 25 And this is the part I really want to
831 direct your attention to, sir, line 22 page 196: 2 "Q: And it's my understanding that 3 the components of intelligence can be 4 broken into a number of components: 5 Planning and direction, the collection 6 of information, the collation of that 7 information, the evaluation of the -- 8 that information, the analysis of that 9 information, the reporting and 10 dissemination of that information, and 11 the re-evaluation of that information. 12 Is that a fair -- would you agree with 13 that as that is a fair statement of the 14 steps involved in intelligence 15 collection and the use of intelligence? 16 A: Sure, yes. Absolutely." 17 Now stopping there, and that's where I 18 want to direct you. Would you agree with the analysis 19 just given by the question and the answer which is that 20 those are the components of intelligence gathering? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And as a -- now an incident commander 23 and then a long-time leader of TRU, that was your 24 understanding of how intelligence gathering worked? 25 A: Start with the information you
841 receive and then you have to evaluate it. 2 Q: Right, through the cycle that we've 3 just described? I'm being very specific now. It's line 4 22 that I read to you, that the components of 5 intelligence can be broken into a number of components, 6 did you hear that -- that: Planning and direction, 7 collection, collation, evaluation, analysis, and 8 reporting and dissemination? That's how you understood 9 it as well? 10 A: I -- well, I don't think I understood 11 it at that time, sir. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But I have a better understanding of 14 it now, but -- 15 Q: As an incident commander? 16 A: As -- yes. 17 Q: And you agree with that? 18 A: I agree that that is the process that 19 an intelligence officer would use, yes. 20 Q: And there is nothing about Ipperwash 21 or that incident that made it an exemption from that 22 process, was there, that you knew of? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Today or back then? 25 A: No.
851 Q: No, as you sit here today as incident 2 commander, that's what you'd expect the intelligence 3 process to undertake in a -- in a major situation such as 4 Ipperwash, yes? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes...? 6 OBJ MS. SUSAN VELLA: I have to object here. 7 My -- Inspector Skinner has already indicated that -- 8 that he didn't have that level of detail of knowledge 9 with respect to the intelligence cycle in 1995 and we do 10 know that the intelligence has advanced since then. 11 To ask this individual, as an incident 12 commander today, to second guess what the Incident 13 Commander in 1995 ought to have done or ought to have had 14 in place, in my respectful submission is -- is not 15 helpful and not appropriate. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 17 Tuck-Jackson...? 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 19 Commissioner, I have a slightly different point. The 20 concern that I have is that notwithstanding the very 21 background that this Witness has, he does not have a 22 background in intelligence and, therefore, is not in a 23 position to meaningfully assist you as to what would have 24 been appropriate and what processes would have been 25 appropriate.
861 Those questions are fair but asked of -- 2 of an appropriate witness -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- not of this 5 Witness. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 7 we've planned to call a witness who will be able to help 8 us with these questions, or we may, we may. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I shouldn't 11 say we will, we may, depending on time. 12 Yes...? 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. Commissioner, 14 it's anticipated that Inspector Don Bell will be 15 testifying. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 17 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: He is the 18 appropriate person -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- to be asking 21 these questions of. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 Ms. Jones, did you have something you wanted to add? 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, my -- 25 my concern was based more on the evidence given by this
871 Witness, that to his knowledge and what he understood 2 about the intelligence function was in Project Maple, 3 which was to identify people. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: And when these -- when 6 these questions were being asked of the witness by Mr. 7 Millar previously, he -- the sort of prelude to it is 8 that, you know, the -- the intelligence at Ipperwash was 9 primarily to identify people and then they go into a 10 different discussion about intelligence completely. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In general. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: In general. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In general, 14 yes. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: And it seems to me 16 completely unrelated. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: To what this Witness 19 has said and what he says he knows of. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 Yes, Mr. Falconer...? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I have a different
881 way. It may spark the same problem, but -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I have a 4 potentially different way -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 6 know that the issue -- 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- of approaching-- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- of 9 intelligence is important in this Inquiry and these are 10 legitimate questions. We just want to make sure we ask 11 them of witnesses who can -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- help us. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But I -- the reason 15 I bring it home to this witness might -- by my rephrasing 16 the question, it might be clear why I am trying to bring 17 it home to this witness. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 20 Q: The reason you didn't have for -- you 21 told Ms. Vella that it wasn't your role to second guess 22 the intelligence process, right? 23 That wasn't -- 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Okay. But as a leader of TRU, you
891 knew then, and you know today, that the reason, in part, 2 you don't second-guess is you expect others to be doing 3 their job while you do yours, right? 4 A: Certainly. 5 Q: Because people's lives are at stake 6 if one part of the machine doesn't do their job, right? 7 A: That's a potential, yes. 8 Q: Okay. So the reason you don't sort 9 of engage in this critical analysis of the information 10 coming your way, is in reliance that the other people are 11 doing their job? 12 A: I would hope that all the units are 13 doing their job, yes, sir. 14 Q: Yes, okay. Now, I say, Mr. 15 Commissioner, that's the foundation. Now I move to my 16 next question which is this. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well... 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 20 Q: My next question is: In September 21 1995 you assumed that the intelligence people were doing 22 their job; that's why you didn't question or critically 23 analyse the information that was going your way. 24 Isn't that right? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I may be
901 mistaken, but I think you've gone over this. You may be 2 coming at it from a different angle, but I think -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I'm about 4 to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, carry 6 on. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: You -- that's -- that's why you 11 didn't critically -- you assumed somebody else was doing 12 that job, yes? 13 A: I don't know if my thought -- that 14 was my thought process at the time, sir, that, you know, 15 I'm sure this information is true because somebody has 16 already looked at it. 17 My inform -- my thought process at, you 18 know, if I can think back that eleven (11) years, is that 19 this is information that came very recently to the 20 attention of the officers, and they're passing it along. 21 I don't think at that time I had any 22 inclination that they had verified it or not verified it. 23 Q: Did it matter? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Did it matter?
911 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sure 2 we've been over this, Mr. Falconer, some time -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Whether they 4 verified or not -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 6 think you did this -- am I mistaken? I think we've 7 covered this area. 8 I believe we've covered this area some 9 time ago. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I'll move on. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 I think this is a good time to take a morning break. 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I actually 14 want to finish -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I 16 thought you were -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- the intelligence-- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- then, if 19 you're moving on. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I was going to move 21 -- when I said I'll move on, I meant I'll move to the 22 next question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 24 All right. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I still need to
921 know -- I still want to seek to elicit from this witness, 2 if you say, Mr. Commissioner, I can't, then I can't. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 4 not sure what -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I want to -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you're 7 trying to elicit. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I want to tell you 9 what I want to elicit from him. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I thought 11 you did already. That's all -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Right, but I want 13 to tell you -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'm 15 saying -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- what I want to 17 elicit from him. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 19 see. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm going to flag 21 it, so that we can move as quickly -- if I'm not to do 22 it, I'm not to do it. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: What I want to 25 elicit from this witness is whether he expected a process
931 similar to what's on that transcript that Mr. Millar put 2 to Mr. Carson, similar to, and it doesn't have to be 3 identical, but a process similar to that was going on, 4 whether he expected generally that that was what was 5 happening. 6 That's what I want to simply ask him. As 7 the head of TRU, who 's getting information -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I just want to 10 ask him whether at the time he expected a process like 11 that or similar to that was going on. 12 He may say he didn't know, didn't think -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- about it and 15 then we'll go on. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 17 Jackson...? 18 OBJ MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Again, I renew 19 my objection, Mr. Commissioner, on the basis that, 20 respectfully, this witness, because he doesn't have an 21 intelligence background, isn't able to meaningfully 22 answer that question. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 24 know what, if anything, was going on to -- 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: But he wouldn't
941 know what -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- analyse 3 or evaluate -- 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- to expect 5 because he didn't -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Wouldn't 7 know what to expect. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- have that 9 background. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Given what 11 his answers so far have been. 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I mean, in 13 fairness, this witness indicated already that the scale 14 that Mr. Millar put to the Incident Commander was not 15 something that he was familiar with. 16 So then to ask him whether he expected 17 that that was going on -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is just -- 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- is an 20 extraction. Also, you know, it's in the abstract as 21 well, with respect to the particular information that he 22 was being given, which we already went through yesterday. 23 He indicated he'd assumed, you know, a 24 degree of reliability and that's why he passed it on. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's his--
951 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's what's 2 important. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 4 he's already said, too. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, that's a -- 6 that's -- that's certainly true, but it's quite unfair 7 for Ms. Vella, with respect, to not include in the 8 question she just objected to, the fact that I said that 9 process or something similar to it. 10 Because I understand what his answer was 11 that I don't know the cycle and so I want to know given 12 his high level of responsibility and high level of duties 13 whether he thought something similar to that. 14 Now he can say I don't know, fine, I'll 15 move on. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 17 don't think it's helpful at this point. We've had enough 18 evidence on this. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. That's 20 fair. That's why I flagged it and if I -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- if I'm not to 23 ask it, I won't ask it. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 25 we should move and take our morning break.
961 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:24 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:43 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 13 from some of the counsel that if we take this Inquiry 14 outside, they guarantee to cut their examinations in 15 half. So that's an idea worth giving serious 16 consideration to. 17 Carry on. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, it's right 19 improper that today's a very, very sunny and clear day 20 since forty-seven (47) years ago today I was born, Mr. 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Happy 23 birthday, Mr. Falconer. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 25
971 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: If I could ask that your attention be 3 directed to something slightly different, Inspector 4 Skinner. And you and I, Inspector Skinner, now share 5 something which is one of -- for either of us or both of 6 us, the same time may have to take a break on the fly. I 7 seemed to have started to develop a bit of a stomach bug. 8 So when you're ready to go, you tell me 9 and when I'm ready to go, I'll tell you. 10 A: Fair enough, sir. 11 Q: All right. There's a document that's 12 to be found at Document Number 2003536. And I just -- 13 before -- I -- I flag it for counsel so that they can now 14 track it down. 15 And I want to ask you some questions just 16 briefly by way of introduction. Would you agree with me 17 that when you were called as a defence witness at the 18 trial of Kenneth Deane, you had an obligation to come to 19 court and simply tell the truth no matter who called you 20 as a witness? 21 A: Certainly. 22 Q: And that your role there as a defence 23 witness didn't mean you were an advocate for Ken Deane, 24 did it? 25 A: No.
981 Q: No. Because that's your obligation 2 as a police officer whether you're friends with Ken Deane 3 or not. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it that in addition 6 -- that you were friends with Ken Deane? 7 A: Yes, I was. 8 Q: And again, I repeat my condolences. 9 In terms of -- it must have been a little bit awkward 10 though in the time period of the investigation and the 11 charges and the trial to not only be his friend but be 12 his superior officer; yes? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And it must have also been somewhat 15 awkward to not only have been his friend, his superior 16 officer, but actually a material witness in respect of an 17 investigation in which he was the subject officer; that 18 must have been awkward? 19 A: It was unusual, sir, I'd never 20 experienced it before or since. 21 Q: All right. And so I take it that you 22 were minimally in a situation where you had to be careful 23 about how much you let your personal relationship -- you 24 just had be cautious about it, you had to instruct 25 yourself how much you let your personal relationship with
991 Mr. Deane or Officer Deane impact on how you dealt with 2 the fact that he was the subject officer on a -- on an 3 incident with TRU team. 4 You had to make sure you kept some line 5 between the two (2), correct; between your personal 6 friendship and his -- his status as a subject officer in 7 a case TRU was on? 8 You had -- you had to be careful about 9 that didn't you? 10 A: I had to maintain my -- the aspects 11 of my job, sir, yes. 12 Q: And -- and that meant maintaining a 13 certain distance from Kenneth Deane, agreed? 14 A: I'm not sure what you mean by that, 15 sir. 16 Q: All right. I'll rephrase. Is it 17 fair to say that that meant to some extent maintaining 18 some independence from the subject officer and not simply 19 weighing in as his friend? 20 A: Again independence in what manner, 21 sir, -- 22 Q: Well, -- 23 A: -- I -- we continued to work together 24 for sometime. 25 Q: Did you work together on his defence?
1001 A: I would say no to that. 2 Q: Sorry? 3 A: I would say no. 4 Q: All right. And the reason you 5 wouldn't work together on his defence would be? 6 A: I wasn't part of his defence team, 7 sir. 8 Q: Well, that's kind -- would -- would 9 you agree with me that's kind of circular? If you 10 decided to work on his defence you would be part of his 11 defence but if you decided not to work on his defence you 12 wouldn't be. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, that's not -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm simply asking 15 you -- 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- that's not fair. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- is there -- is 18 there -- let me back up. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's not fair. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's an 22 objection to the way you put that I assume. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm just saying -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 25 question.
1011 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. Let me just 2 simply rephrase. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not a 4 question. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 7 Q: Whether you were formally part of his 8 defence team you knew it wouldn't be appropriate to be 9 informally part of his defence team, correct? 10 A: Yes, I -- I was a potential witness 11 in the -- in the case, sir. 12 Q: And you were his superior officer? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And those are two (2) -- and I'm -- 15 and I'm asking you this carefully because there's a 16 certain question I have for you about this. 17 At any time did your superiors direct you 18 to assist Mr. Deane in his defence? 19 A: I don't have any recollection of that 20 being done, sir. 21 Q: Right. And -- and let me give you an 22 example. One (1) of your superiors certainly would have 23 been Chief Superintendent Coles, yes? 24 A: Yes, he was a superior. Yes. 25 Q: And he didn't direct you to assist
1021 Kenneth Deane in his defence? 2 A: Not that I recall, sir, no. 3 Q: Superintendent Parkin, he didn't make 4 such a direction? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. So it's fair that you 7 don't -- and you'd recall if somebody called you up or 8 instructed you in writing or verbally to assist Kenneth 9 Deane? You'd recall that? 10 A: Likely, yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Three (3) 12 questions ago he said no senior officers directed, that 13 he could recall -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Right. It's the 15 "that he can recall"; that's the reason I have to then 16 follow-up. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but 18 that's -- that's what you've just asked him. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah, that he would 20 recall it if they did. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 22 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's all because 23 the, "not that I recall" -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- always has this
1031 problem, Mr. Commissioner, which is it requires the 2 lawyer to then make sure that this isn't a memory 3 problem, this is something he'd remember, that's all. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you 5 could ask that in one (1) question then. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 8 Carry on. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. Let 10 me try to do it in one (1) question. This isn't a memory 11 problem -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 13 don't want you to go over it -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- this is 15 something you'd remember if it was directed to you -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- wouldn't it? 18 THE WITNESS: I suppose if I didn't 19 remember it I -- I don't remember it, but I have no 20 recollection of it, sir. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: Okay. I'll move on. Now, -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 25 Jones...?
1041 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, 2 further and above that this is an Inquiry dealing with 3 the events surrounding September of 1995, and it appears 4 as though we're now talking about events that occurred 5 far after that period of time. 6 It may be that there is some relevance 7 here for you, Mr. Commissioner, and of course you want to 8 here what's relevant -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- but it may be also 11 that we're spending a lot of time dealing with something 12 that is not going to assist you -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- at all in the terms 15 of your reference for this Inquiry. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 17 my concern all the time, Ms. Jones. And I guess we have 18 to listen to each question to make that decision I guess 19 but I'm very concerned about that. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 24 Q: Now, I'm going to simply read to you 25 a passage. I'm going to hand it up. It was provided by
1051 way of a notice already to you and your Counsel and I 2 believe that you should already have a copy. I have a 3 copy here for the Commission. I'll simply put a sticky 4 on the page that I want you to look at because there's a 5 quote I want to put to you. 6 And if you -- 7 MR. SUSAN VELLA: What's is -- 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's the Odhavji 9 paragraph. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's case? 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah, it's a case. 12 You just put it in front of the Witness. There's one (1) 13 paragraph -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is 15 this? 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I want to read 17 to you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 19 what this is. Do you know what this is, Ms. Vella? I 20 don't, I'm just -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's a -- it's a Motion 22 to Strike Court Case is what it is with respect to causes 23 of action that are maintainable against police officers 24 with respect to the way they conducted SIU 25 investigations.
1061 I believe that's what it's about. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's correct. 3 And I have one (1) paragraph and the paragraph I read to 4 him will make it immediately apparent why I'm asking him 5 the question. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 8 Q: The paragraph I'm reading to you, 9 that I gave you notice on, is paragraph 36 when Justice 10 Day says the following. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 12 who said it? Justice...? 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 15 Q: Justice Gerald Day, ultimately upheld 16 in the Supreme Court of Canada. Quote: 17 "I understand fully the tremendous 18 sense of conflict police officers must 19 feel when they are required to provide 20 potential evidence against a fellow 21 officer. But the brutal truth is that 22 police officers have an obligation to 23 uphold the law which must supercede any 24 sense of loyalty they may have to one 25 of their own who may have committed a
1071 criminal act." 2 Do you agree with that proposition laid 3 out by Justice Day? 4 A: Yes, sir. I have a duty, a sworn 5 duty. 6 Q: And in fact, at paragraph 33, those 7 duties are actually laid out under the Police Services 8 Act by Justice Day. Do you see that? 9 "The duties of a police officer 10 include, under Section 42 of the Police 11 Services Act." 12 Do you see that? 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, I don't -- I 14 don't understand -- 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, he said that 16 -- I was just following up. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't under -- he 18 already said that he'd have to tell the truth whether he 19 was called by the defence or the Crown. 20 Now, we have a paragraph read to him that 21 effectively says the same thing and now he's being 22 directed to the source of the duties which he's already 23 admitted he has. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. At the 25 end of the day you're right where you were at the
1081 beginning, it seems to me, that's what we're saying. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm -- I'm getting 3 there, but I'll -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I'll just keep 6 moving. If Ms. Vella wants me to move faster, I'll move 7 faster. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but 9 we're not saying that what you're doing isn't useful. 10 We're saying it's been done. I mean you're just doing it 11 again, or in a more elaborate fashion. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, the 14 point that you made has been made. Move on. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Now -- Thank you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: Do you agree with that proposition? 19 It made reference to the position you were in. And you 20 said specifically to me that you understood that it 21 wouldn't be appropriate to assist Mr. Deane in his 22 defence, right? 23 A: If it was outside my duties, sir, as 24 a police officer. 25 Q: Right. And -- and we've established
1091 that you were not instructed, as part of your duties, to 2 assist -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- Mr. Deane? 5 A: That's -- I don't recall being 6 instructed by -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, that's -- 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fine. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you've 11 established it -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you've 14 established it, why do you need to ask him if you've 15 established it? 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: See, that's 18 what I'm saying. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's just 21 taking us a lot longer to get to where we want to go. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 24 Q: I'm putting in front of you a 25 statement by Officer Bob Goodall, that is Document Number
1101 2003536, the one I direct Counsel's attention to 2 previously. 3 Could this be put in front of the witness. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Thank you. 8 Q: And there's a copy for you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 15 Q: Now, this statement by Mr. Goodall is 16 a document that was used in the Court of Appeal and it's 17 on the database, but I want to ask you something 18 specifically in relation to your relationship with 19 Kenneth Deane and the matters before the Court. 20 Specifically, first of all, what did you 21 understand the function of Officer Goodall to be; that's 22 Bob Goodall from CIB, what was his function? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 24 Jones...? 25 Just stop for a second, Mr. Falconer.
1111 Yes, Ms. Jones...? 2 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Again, Mr. 3 Commissioner, I object on the basis of how is this 4 officer's knowledge of Bob Goodall's evidence in a 5 particularly -- there -- you have a statement there 6 outlining what his duties are. 7 How is that going to assist you in this 8 Inquiry? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I certainly 10 don't know at this point and that's for sure. I -- 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm not even -- I'm 12 not even -- I've only asked one (1) question. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I say, I 14 give Counsel an opportunity to demonstrate that it's 15 relevant and it's helpful because at this point, I agree 16 with you, I can't see how it is. But if it doesn't 17 become relevant or helpful we'll stop him. But I guess 18 we have to hear the questions. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: What -- could you answer my question, 23 please? 24 A: Could you repeat your question, sir? 25 Q: Yes. What did you understand
1121 Detective Inspector Bob Goodall's duties to be in 2 relation to the investigation of the shooting of Dudley 3 George? 4 A: He was conducting a parallel 5 investigation. 6 Q: And is it fair to say he was among 7 other things, he was carry -- conducting a parallel 8 investigation with respect to charges of attempt murder? 9 A: He's conducting an investigation, 10 sir. I'm not sure if he was looking at it as attempt 11 murder at the time. He was conducting a parallel 12 investigation into what happened at Ipperwash. 13 Q: And in -- 14 A: It was a standard practice -- a 15 standard policy when there's an SIU investigation, there 16 is also a parallel investigation conducted by CIB. 17 Q: And the CIB investigation is a 18 criminal investigation in relation of conduct not of 19 police officers but of non police officers, right? 20 A: Not necessarily, sir. 21 Q: All right. So you don't know, is the 22 bottomline? 23 A: No, I'm saying that's not necessarily 24 the case. 25 Q: In this case, did you know what --
1131 A: He was investigating what happened as 2 far as the shooting goes. 3 Q: Okay. And I take it, it's fair to 4 say that as an investigator, you understood that his role 5 when he interacted with you and your fellow officers, his 6 role was to be an objective professional investigator; 7 yes? 8 A: Absolutely. 9 Q: And like you, he was not to be an 10 advocate for Ken Deane, right? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: Okay. Now, in this statement by 13 Detective Inspector Goodall, he says the following and 14 this is what I want to ask you about. It's seven (7) or 15 eight (8) lines from the bottom of the page, first page, 16 when it says: 17 "When Acting Sergeant Deane was found 18 guilty of criminal negligence." 19 Do you see that? If you count eight (8) 20 lines from the bottom. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Eight (8) 22 lines from the bottom? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: You see that? 25 "When Acting Sergeant Deane was found
1141 guilty of criminal negligence." 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I've 3 got it. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 6 Q: "When Acting Sergeant Deane was found 7 guilty of criminal negligence, a 8 meeting took place at Mr. Peel's 9 residence. 10 I met with Mr. Peel. Other persons 11 present were Wade Lacroix, George 12 Hebblethwaite, Trevor Richardson, Brian 13 Adkin. There were others present but I 14 cannot recall who they 15 were. 16 The conversation revolved around the 17 outcome of the trial and the tactics of 18 the Crown during the prosecution. 19 Mr. Peel was distressed and angered 20 that Mr. Scott reneged on the pretrial 21 agreement and introduced the issue of 22 muzzle flashes during the trial. 23 The conversation with Mr. Peel lasted 24 about one (1) hour. I left the room at 25 that point."
1151 Stopping there. Detective Inspector 2 Goodall makes reference to the fact of certain 3 individuals being present in relation to the incident, 4 Lacroix, Hebblethwaite, Richardson. 5 Can you assist me, were you present at 6 that meeting at Mr. Peel's house? 7 A: I recall there was a time after the 8 trial was concluded that we all went to Norm Peel's 9 house. I'm not sure if that is the meeting he's 10 referring to though. 11 Q: All right. So it's fair to say that 12 there was a meeting. There was a meeting at Mr. Peel's 13 house and you attended such a meeting? 14 A: That's not what I said, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He didn't 16 say that he attended. He didn't say that. So it's not 17 fair to say -- 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Oh I'm sorry, then 19 I missed it. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: You said you remember there was a 23 meeting at Mr. Peel's house after the trial. 24 A: No. That's not what I said, sir. 25 Q: Oh, I apologize then. Then I
1161 misunderstood. Can you please say it again? 2 A: I said we went to Norm Peel's house 3 after the trial. 4 Q: Who went? 5 A: Members of the team. There were 6 other people present as well. I don't recall who all was 7 there. 8 Q: Do -- do you recall -- 9 A: It was quite a large group. 10 Q: Okay. Do you recall -- 11 A: But I'm not sure that this meeting 12 that Detective Inspector Goodall is referring to is the 13 same meeting. 14 Q: Fair enough. Do you recall if Ken 15 Deane was at that meeting? 16 A: No, sir, he wasn't. If my 17 recollection is this was right after his conviction. He 18 was taken into custody at that time. 19 Q: And do you recall Detective Inspector 20 Goodall was at that meeting? 21 A: I'm sorry, sir, I -- I could not tell 22 you who all was at this meeting. There was a large 23 number of people there and the trial had just come to a 24 conclusion and I don't know who all was there. 25 Q: Fair enough. So what we get from
1171 what you said is, that you can't rule out your presence 2 at the meeting that Detective Inspector Goodall refers 3 to, you simply can't confirm it either, correct? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He has no knowledge. 5 THE WITNESS: Are you referring to this 6 meeting he's specifically talking about? 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 9 Q: Yeah, you can't rule it out. You 10 can't rule it out nor can you confirm it. That's what 11 you're telling us. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: What's the date of this 13 meeting? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir, if I was 15 at this meeting. My name isn't on the list, I don't 16 recall it. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 19 Q: Fair enough. Now if you continue in 20 this document to the third page; these are handwritten 21 notes of Bob Goodall. Do you see those? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, in the period of December and 24 January 1996, Inspector -- Inspector, in the period of 25 December and January 1996 there was an investigation by
1181 SIU and this parallel investigation by CIB, yes? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And decisions were going to be made 4 about whether to charge Acting Sergeant Deane about the 5 shooting of Dudley George. 6 A: That's what they were investigating, 7 yes, sir. 8 Q: And you knew that. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. I want to read to you 11 passages of these notes, in particular, that refer, sir, 12 to you. You'll see at the top of the handwritten notes 13 of Bob Goodall, there's a reference to a meeting with 14 SIU, Bob Goodall and Tex Deane, right? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And then if you go down the page, 17 January 18th, '96, this is Bob Goodall's handwriting: 18 "I was contacted by Norm Peel. He 19 advised me that SIU were considering 20 charge of dangerous use of a firearm in 21 regards to Deane shooting at muzzle 22 flashes. No charges contemplated in 23 death of Dudley George." 24 Do you see that reference? 25 A: I see it.
1191 Q: Now, going down, January 24th, '96, 2 quote: 3 "I have discussions with Norm Peel 4 about having Ted Ryzcko conduct a 5 recreation of the observations of Deane 6 regarding muzzle flashes." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: I see that. 9 Q: Now do you know who Ted Ryzcko is? 10 A: There's some familiarity to the name, 11 sir, but I couldn't -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- be specific. I -- 14 Q: Now, January 25th, 1996, quote: 15 "I set up a demo with Kent Skinner and 16 Tex Deane for January 29th, 1996. No 17 other persons to be involved." 18 Close quotes. 19 Do you see that? 20 A: I see that. 21 Q: And then going to the next page, 22 February 01/'96: 23 "Demonstration takes place. Goodall, 24 Skinner, Deane. Muzzle flashes from 25 .308 calibre, .223 calibre, .22
1201 calibre shotgun. Viewed from direct on 2 and from side view. Observation 3 Starburst from direct on. Ecliptical 4 and long from side. No muzzle flashes 5 observed from .22 calibre. Video 6 camera need to record. Not a good 7 idea, recording very poor. 8 February 7th, '96. Norm Peel advised 9 that the 01 February demo was a 10 success. I will call Ryzcko. 11 February 9th, '96. Ryzcko agrees to do 12 a demo re. muzzle flashes for OPP and 13 SIU. SIU, Wayne Allen, agrees to 14 attend." 15 Stopping there. Do you now recall 16 assisting Bob Goodall and Tex Deane, starting in and 17 around January 25th, 1996 with a demo in relation to 18 muzzle flashes that Ken Deane alleged occurred at the 19 scene on September 6th, 1995? 20 A: I recall doing a -- assisting in a 21 demo at the direction of Detective Inspector Bob Goodall, 22 to assist in the investigation. 23 Q: How many investigations have you been 24 involved in, in your career, where the results of the 25 investigations are recorded to the defence lawyer in the
1211 criminal case? 2 How many have you done where that happens? 3 I mean, that they're reported first to the defence lawyer 4 in the prosecution? How many criminal investigations 5 have you participated in where that's been done? 6 A: Criminal investigations where your 7 evidence is reported -- 8 Q: To the defence lawyer. 9 A: -- not to the Crown first, but to 10 the -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I don't recall any, sir. 13 Q: No. 14 A: Usually it's reported to the Crown 15 and disclosure provides it to the defence. 16 Q: Absolutely. But these notes, if 17 they're accurate, and I suppose we can hear from 18 Detective Inspector Goodall or not, but these notes seem 19 to indicate that the call is made to Norm Peel, at which 20 point a decision is made to convene OPP and SIU, right? 21 Isn't that what the notes seem to 22 indicate? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 24 Jones...? 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, you know,
1221 I'll withdraw that. I can -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, you've 3 withdrawn it. He's withdrawn the question. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'll move on. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's just 6 keep going and move on. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 9 Q: Accepting the unusual nature, as you 10 referred to in your evidence, this would be one of those 11 situations where you were assisting in a demo and the 12 results of the demo were being reported to the defence 13 lawyer, right? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 Ms. Jones is up again, so -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: I am up again, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: If there is any merit 20 to such questioning, surely a foundation has to be laid 21 about whether or not this officer knew or had any 22 knowledge of what was reported by who. These are not his 23 notes. This -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: -- is not his matter.
1231 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 2 right. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: And once again, 4 somebody else's notes, without ever having established 5 any foundation that he knows about it -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: -- are being used to 8 make propositions to him as though it's true and other 9 than something based on Mr. Falconer's inferences that 10 he'd like to draw. It's not fair and it's not an 11 appropriate use of the quest -- of the document. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but if 13 he tries to establish that foundation, it's going to take 14 some considerable time, Ms. Jones. I'm not sure if it's 15 necessary or not. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I've asked this 17 witness about his involvement in something and I have 18 notes referring to his personal involvement; that's what 19 I'm asking about. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So far he's 21 acknowledged that he had some involvement and I guess 22 we'll have to deal with this on a question by question 23 basis. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER:
1241 Q: In January of 1996, when you were 2 involved in this demonstration, did you, at the time, 3 address your mind to the fact that the only persons 4 present were Goodall, Deane, and yourself? 5 Did you -- did you address your mind to 6 that at all? 7 A: No, sir, my recollection and 8 understanding was we were doing this demo to be provided 9 for the SIU. 10 Q: And -- and you were helping in 11 organizing the demo? 12 A: I was helping at the direction of Bob 13 Goodall. 14 Q: And in helping at the direction of 15 Bob Goodall, is there a reason that you didn't invite SIU 16 to the first demo? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's not his call. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, let's see -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- again, 21 I'm not sure that that's a question that -- he didn't 22 organize the meeting. He didn't -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, he just said 24 he helped in organizing it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm
1251 not sure if he's the one -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I didn't -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- who 4 issued the invitations or any of that. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, he can tell 6 me that. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all 8 right. All right. 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: So did -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 11 putting it to him as if certain facts are so and -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. Let me 13 rephrase it. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 16 Q: You were involved in carrying out 17 directions of Detective Inspector Goodall about 18 organizing a demo, yes? 19 A: Organizing it from the end of the -- 20 the firearms and their availability to the range, sir. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall discussing 22 with Detective Inspector Goodall who would or would not 23 attend at the demo? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Do you recall wondering, or
1261 pondering, or discussing the fact that neither the SIU 2 nor the OPP, because it says here: 3 "Contact SIU and OPP about attending 4 later." 5 That neither formal representation was 6 there? 7 A: Detective Inspector Goodall was 8 there, sir. He was representing the investigation he was 9 conducting. 10 Q: And I take it you don't recall any 11 discussion directed at why SIU wasn't invited to that 12 demo; you don't recall that? 13 A: I think the first demo was done to 14 see if you could actually see what was happening, if -- 15 if the demo would be effective. 16 Q: Right. And effective for what 17 purpose? 18 A: That you could actually see the 19 muzzle flashes, that type of thing. 20 Q: Sure. And would you agree with me 21 that if the muzzle flashes happened and you couldn't see 22 them, that that would be information that could be 23 relevant to criminal investigators of Acting Sergeant 24 Deane who claimed he saw them? 25 That would be relevant, wouldn't it?
1271 A: Can you start your premise again 2 there, sir? 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: If the muzzle flashes happened and 5 you couldn't see them -- 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: You -- you lost me in there. 8 Q: Well, your answer to me was that the 9 point of the demo was to see if you could see the muzzle 10 flashes. Do you remember you said that? 11 A: Yes, if you could present that in a 12 manner that someone would be able to see what a muzzle 13 flash looked like and -- 14 Q: Right. 15 A: -- see it from different angles. 16 Q: And if it turned out that one 17 couldn't see them, that would be relevant, wouldn't it, 18 to -- to the credibility of the claim of Deane seeing 19 muzzle flashes; that would be relevant? 20 A: It could be. 21 Q: Yeah. So whether or not you could 22 see the muzzle flashes in the demo, or you could -- 23 whether you couldn't or you could, either way that demo, 24 the results of it would be relevant to an SIU 25 investigator, wouldn't it?
1281 A: Well, sir, that's -- the purpose of 2 us doing the demo was to see if we could aid in the 3 investigation. 4 Q: Or is it aid in the defence? Which 5 one? 6 A: It was to aid in the investigation 7 put on by Inspector Goodall. 8 Q: The reason I ask you about aiding in 9 the defence is would you please direct your attention, 10 and that's why I'm asking you this, could you direct your 11 attention to January 24th, 1996, the handwritten note: 12 "I have discussions with Norm Peel 13 about having Ryzcko conduct a 14 recreation of the observations of Deane 15 regarding muzzle flashes." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: I see it. 18 Q: All right. Do you see any reference 19 -- well, first of all, can I ask you, did you have any 20 discussions with SIU about conducting this demo? Did 21 you? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Did it come to your 24 attention that prior to or in and around January 24th, 25 1996, that Detective Inspector Goodall raised with SIU
1291 his intention to do this demo? 2 A: I'm sorry, sir -- 3 Q: No? 4 A: I -- I lost that somewhere along the 5 line. 6 Q: Did it come to your attention, did 7 you learn whether Goodall told SIU they were going to do 8 the demo of January 20 -- 9 A: I -- I don't know. 10 Q: -- or February 1st, '96 before they 11 did it? Did they? 12 A: I don't know that he did or he 13 didn't, sir. 14 Q: Right. The notes don't show it, 15 right? Agreed? Look carefully at the notes. 16 A: No. 17 Q: But they do show he told the defence 18 lawyer about it, right? 19 A: It shows he had a discussion about it 20 with Norm Peel, is what it says. 21 Q: Yes. And then you notice the 22 reference February 7th '96: 23 "Norm Peel advised that the 01 February 24 demo was a success?" 25 A: Yes.
1301 Q: Do you see that? 2 A: I see that. 3 Q: How do you determine what's a 4 success? Do you know? I'm just asking. You were there, 5 you were there for the demo. 6 What's a success? You were there. 7 A: I'd be surmising, sir -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- I don't know what they're 10 talking -- 11 Q: You might not know -- 12 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 13 object. He cannot comment on somebody else's language 14 used in a document that's not his document -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He just gave 16 that answer -- 17 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and he doesn't have 18 knowledge of. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He just gave 20 that answer, Ms. Jones. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He gave that 23 answer. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER:
1311 Q: At the demo of February 1st, 1996, 2 where you were personally present, was it discussed that 3 the demo was a success? 4 A: I don't recall discussing if it was a 5 success or not a success, sir. 6 Q: Do you recall, subsequently, any 7 discussions that you participated in with Norm Peel where 8 you communicated to him that the demo was a success? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. And if you look at the later 11 notes, February 20th, 1996, the next page: 12 "Demo with SIU takes place. SIU 13 appears content with demo." 14 Do you see that, February 20th, 1996? 15 A: I see it. 16 Q: And I guess other than telling us you 17 were following the direction of Detective Inspector 18 Goodall, you can't actually assist us on why SIU wasn't 19 at the first demo, right? You don't know. 20 A: Other than, like I said, sir, I think 21 our role to help out was to see if a demo could be 22 conducted that you could effectively see the muzzle 23 flashes or whatever it was they were to see. 24 Q: Thank you. I propose to file this 25 document, the Goodall statement along with the Goodall
1321 notes, as the next exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1363, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1363: Document Number 2003536. 5 Statement and handwritten 6 notes : December 10, 1995 to 7 February 20, 1996. of Robert 8 J. Goodall, OPP Detective 9 Inspector. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: You were asked by Ms. Vella about a 13 reference at Tab 6 of your Commission Counsel binder, if 14 you could just flip open Tab 6, please. 15 It's the scribe notes and -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- in particular, if you could look 18 at page 34. 19 A: Page 34. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: A brief indulgence. 25
1331 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: At page 34, there's a reference, if 4 you could find it, to the issue of the negotiations; do 5 you see that? 6 You actually asked about it, page -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- 34. 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And the reference is: 11 "Inspector Carson gave Sergeant Skinner 12 a background plan of the situation." 13 It's the last three (3) lines of the 11:42 14 reference. 15 "Kent Skinner asked about negotiations 16 and John Carson said that he wanted to 17 talk to them shortly." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You see that? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Now, did -- was the gist of your 22 evidence that you never heard anything more about that? 23 A: I don't recall. I'm sure it came up 24 in a subsequent meeting again, but I don't have any 25 recollection of it, sir.
1341 Q: Okay. And so it's fair to say you 2 weren't personally, in the discharge of your functions, 3 brought into any negotiation steps? 4 A: As part of a negotiation team, no. 5 Q: No. As part of this -- you said a 6 function you had was to facilitate negotiations. 7 A: To assist in the facilitation. 8 Generally, that's done in the physical sense. 9 Q: Right. But -- and that's a very 10 common part of your job; that's what you told Ms. Vella. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Was that common aspect of your job 13 employed in this case? 14 A: No, it wasn't. 15 Q: All right. And you actually directed 16 your mind to that early in the process, what's going on 17 with negotiations, because in your planning mind you're 18 going, What have I got to do to facilitate that, right? 19 A: Well, I think it was more, not 20 necessarily for me how -- how you facilitate that, but to 21 ascertain where are we in this occurrence? 22 Q: In negotiations? 23 A: In negotiations and in the 24 relationships here. 25 Q: And do you recall ascertaining,
1351 subsequent to this chat -- and this chat would have 2 happened September 5th, 1995, yes? 3 A: Yes, it did. 4 Q: Do you recall determining, 5 subsequent, in between 11:42 on September 5th, 1995 and 6 11:00 at night on September 6th, 1995, where you were at 7 in negotiations? 8 Do you remember ascertaining that? 9 A: I can recall that we were having 10 difficulty. People were not talking to us, they would 11 not talk to the people who went down to talk to them. 12 Q: Fair enough. Did you ascertain 13 anything else? 14 A: I don't recall anything else, sir. 15 Q: All right. And -- and in particular, 16 you've already testified you weren't asked to do anything 17 formal, as TRU. 18 A: As far as facilitating negotiations? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: No, we were not. 21 Q: Okay. Let me give you an example of 22 what I'm thinking of. For example, you gave evidence 23 about installing hard telephone lines in different places 24 where a -- in a hostage taking, for example, a person 25 might have destroyed the communication lines, yes?
1361 A: Yes. You may have to take a land 2 line to the house, yes. 3 Q: And I take it it's fair to say that 4 these aren't always, and often are not, amicable 5 situations, they're dangerous situations, yes? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Sometimes you're called upon to put 8 in communication lines where the person on the other 9 side, you have no idea whether they even welcome such a 10 communication line, right? 11 A: Correct. They may not even know of 12 our presence as yet. 13 Q: And you have to deal with a life 14 threatening situation where you put those hard lines in, 15 in order to open the process, yes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And secondly, there is no assumption, 18 going in, when you put those hard lines in, that the 19 other side wants to talk, correct? There's no -- you 20 don't know. 21 A: We don't know. 22 Q: Right. And your skills are 23 particularly relevant to this because you can operate, 24 for example, invisibly. 25 A: If the situation allows for that,
1371 yes. 2 Q: You can use tactical steps to protect 3 yourselves. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And so you're not your standard 6 officer, you have special skills for setting up these 7 communications, yes? 8 A: In those scenarios, yes we do. 9 Q: Do you recall presenting that option 10 to John Carson? 11 A: No, sir. I don't believe that option 12 was applicable in this case. 13 Q: Well -- 14 A: That we would -- if you're suggesting 15 that we would, through invisible deployment, sneak into 16 the Park and leave a land line there, I -- I don't think 17 that was -- would have been applicable in this case. 18 Q: Why? 19 A: Well, we had face-to-face 20 opportunities but people were refusing to talk. It's not 21 that the ability to communicate wasn't there. 22 Q: Now, let's -- let's be fair though. 23 When you're in a hostage scenario you may well have face 24 to face, but you may well choose to retreat or move away 25 for different reasons and that doesn't remove the
1381 usefulness of subsequent communication abilities, does 2 it? Does it? 3 A: Well, you -- in a hostage situation 4 face-to-face negotiations are not ideal. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: Obviously. 7 Q: And so -- 8 A: What I'm referring to in this case, 9 sir, is we had people -- we're not in a hostage 10 situation, were in a different kind of a conflict. 11 We had people who stood at the fence and 12 had perfect opportunity for people to communicate back 13 and forth. There wasn't -- there wasn't a physical 14 inability to do that. And they were -- they weren't 15 answering. 16 The value of us taking on a risky 17 operation of sneaking into the Park to leave a land line, 18 I -- I don't see the value in that. 19 Q: Okay. And that's what I want to 20 explore with you. And that's why you didn't present the 21 options to John Carson, correct? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: It's late at night, it's September 24 6th, 1995. And instead of having CMU march, the phone 25 rings near the kiosk and an occupier answers. And one of
1391 the things John Carson or another in charge says on that 2 phone, If you folks don't get back inside the Park, we're 3 going to have to march on you. It's going to get 4 violent. Please get back in the Park. 5 That's viable if a hard line's put into 6 the Park; that can happen. The phone can ring because 7 you've put it in there, and a direct communication from 8 the guy in charge right to the people in the Park, We 9 don't want to have to march on you but if you don't get 10 back in the Park we have a problem. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 12 putting a hypothetical to him? 13 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 18 Q: That could -- you said you don't see 19 how it would help and I'm not putting a hypothetical to 20 you. That would be instant communication if the person 21 picked up the ringing phone line, yes? 22 A: That's a potential. If the person 23 picked up the ringing phone line and if they're -- if 24 they decided to listen to the person on the other end and 25 if they decide to go along with it, it's a potential.
1401 Q: Sure. And, in fact, if you go to the 2 hostage scenario, where we put the phone line in in the 3 dangerous situation, it's only useful if the hostage 4 taker decides to pick up the phone, yes? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It's only useful if the hostage taker 7 decides to listen, yes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it's only useful if the hostage 10 taker decides to act on it. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes. In all cases it's an effort to 13 open up communications. 14 A: That's -- that is, yes. 15 Q: And it would be an effort that wasn't 16 undertaken in this case. 17 A: Not in this case. If you're 18 referring to the night of September the 6th. 19 Q: That's right. Now you also made 20 reference to a bullhorn, that one of the ways that you 21 resort to communications is facilitating to hard 22 telephone lines, bullhorns, et cetera. That was the gist 23 of your evidence. 24 A: True. 25 Q: Explain the bullhorn approach. What
1411 is it that you do that facilitates negotiations with 2 bullhorns? 3 A: Essentially you're -- once you have 4 containment and isolation you get on the bullhorn and ask 5 them to pick up the phone. 6 Q: All right. So -- and it doesn't just 7 have to be the ringing, it's also you announce -- let's 8 use the hypothetical with the occupiers again -- you 9 actually -- they're -- they're down there and you 10 announce from a distance on the bullhorn, Look, we 11 installed a phone line near your kiosk, near the gate, 12 near the fence line, would you please pick it up before 13 somebody really gets hurt; that's an option you could do, 14 yes? 15 A: You'd have to get close enough to 16 allow for the bullhorn to be heard. 17 Q: Right. And you'd agree with me that 18 again that would not be an option that was used? 19 A: It wasn't used, no. 20 Q: And when you say you have to be close 21 enough to allow the bullhorn to be heard, thirty (30) to 22 forty (40) police officers got close enough to engage the 23 occupiers near the fence, yes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. So in terms of getting
1421 close to the occupiers people did get close to them, they 2 simply didn't get close to them for the purposes of 3 opening up communication that night, correct? 4 They did get close to them -- 5 A: They did. 6 Q: -- but they didn't get close to them 7 for the purpose of opening up communications, correct? 8 A: They didn't go down there as a 9 negotiator, no. 10 Q: That's right. And all I'm asking you 11 is that part of your job is to present options in which 12 communications are facilitated for negotiation? 13 A: That's true. 14 Q: And John Carson never asked you about 15 it? 16 A: No. When we -- 17 Q: And you never offered it up? 18 A: If I could explain, sir. When we lay 19 a hard line down you're talking about a three hundred 20 (300) foot wire that runs from one (1) handset to another 21 handset. 22 So you'd have to be down close -- in close 23 proximity. You'd have to get down there unseen. You'd 24 have to lay the handset. I assume you're referring to 25 some time prior to or during the confrontation?
1431 Q: You're -- are you asking me? Well -- 2 A: Well, it's your -- it's your 3 scenario, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: The hypothetical 6 was prior to the confrontation. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 10 Q: The idea is -- 11 A: So if I laid -- if I laid a 300 foot 12 wire out, where would I lay it to? Again, prior to this 13 I didn't know they'd be in the parking lot. 14 Q: All right. And so I take it it's 15 your evidence that there is a maximum distance of 300 16 feet to which a hard line can be laid; that's your 17 evidence? 18 A: It's a hard wire, a limited wire. 19 It's a spool of wire with two (2) phones on either end. 20 Q: And the maximum distance is 300 feet? 21 A: I think it's 300 feet, yeah. 22 Q: And there is no other available 23 technology other than the 300 feet? 24 A: That's the -- that's the equipment we 25 had at the time, sir.
1441 Q: Fair enough. So what you're saying 2 to me is that if you had a longer distance you might have 3 thought of it but because you had a 300 foot limit it 4 wasn't viable; is that your evidence? 5 A: That's not exactly what I said, sir. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: I'm -- I'm saying I didn't -- that 8 thought never entered my mind because I didn't think it 9 was an appropriate option. 10 Q: Fair enough. So it had nothing to do 11 with the 300, 500 or 600 feet issue, it had to do with 12 you not considering -- 13 A: No, I'm just explaining, sir, your 14 presentation of it being an option has -- has its 15 difficulties because of the limitations of the equipment. 16 Q: Would you agree with this that you 17 testified to Ms. Vella that between the hours of I think 18 it was 4:00 and 11:00 on -- am I -- was it September 5th 19 or September 6th that there wasn't a lot of activity? 20 You were at the Command Post between 4:00 21 and 11:00 but there wasn't a lot going on? 22 A: That wouldn't have been the 5th, sir, 23 I didn't -- 24 Q: That would be the 6th? 25 A: I'd have to look at the notes again.
1451 Q: Okay. 2 A: There was -- I think there was a 3 notation in my notes but I think it's the night of the 4 5th there is not -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- little noted activity in the Park 7 or something like that. 8 Q: All right. And there were also 9 opportunities to look at possibilities for developing 10 hard lines prior to September 4th, 1995, prior to even 11 the occupation of the Park, correct? 12 A: I wasn't there, sir. 13 Q: Well, your second in command attended 14 an operational meeting of September 1st, 1995, did you 15 know that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: In addition your second in command, 18 we've heard evidence that he, along with I believe 19 Officer Stan Korosec, attended at the site prior to 20 September 4th, 1995, did you know that? 21 A: I -- I know that now. 22 Q: And we also have evidence from 23 Superintendent Parkin that he was quite anxious that 24 certain technologies be inserted, he was talking about 25 video surveillance, at the Park --
1461 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- prior to the occupation that was 3 anticipated for September 4th. Did you know that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: He was anxious that the Technical 6 Services -- 7 A: I -- 8 Q: -- Branch get in there. 9 A: I know that now, sir. 10 Q: All right. So would you agree with 11 me that all of those factors that I just listed, the 12 three (3) of them, speak to the -- an opportunity to 13 address some of the 300 foot limitations or otherwise 14 prior to any dangerous scenario post September 4th? 15 All of them spoke to the issue of being at 16 least free to have an opportunity to analyse those 17 problems and address them. The problem of putting a hard 18 line in from a distance. 19 A: Well, I'm sure there are other phones 20 in the Park, sir. 21 It wasn't the issue that there are no 22 phones in the Park and we need to put one (1) phone in 23 the Park. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I'm only surmising --
1471 Q: Tell me about -- 2 A: -- that, but it's a Provincial Park 3 with offices and everything else and pay phones, I'm 4 sure. But there would be phones in the Park. 5 Q: Sir, could you please explain to me 6 which phone you're thinking of because -- 7 A: I'm not -- 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I'm just saying that your surmising 10 back to this meeting I wasn't at that we would think then 11 to put a 300 foot phone line in somewhere into the Park. 12 Q: I'm actually not suggesting to you. 13 But I'm suggesting to you engaging plan directed at 14 establishing hard line communications with those who 15 occupied the Park with a view to facilitating 16 negotiations as is your function. That's what I'm 17 suggesting to you. 18 That preplanning in relation to hard line 19 communications was an option, it simply wasn't 20 considered; true? 21 A: Prior to the occupation of the Park? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: To prewire the Park, so to -- 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: I'm not aware of that being
1481 discussed. 2 Q: Okay. And then you've just referred 3 to a number of telephones. 4 Is it fair to say that you don't recall 5 any discussions with John Carson about accessing any 6 phones within the Park? 7 A: I have no recollection of that. 8 Q: And again, that bull horn, assuming 9 what you say, the speculation that you engage in is 10 correct, that bull horn could have been used to tell them 11 to pick up another phone? 12 A: Could have been. 13 Q: And again, that would not be an 14 option that you assisted in facilitating? 15 A: I did not. 16 Q: Thank you. Now, whether we're 17 talking intelligence, you're an incident commander now. 18 Whether we're talking intelligence and 19 intelligence gathering practices or we're talking about 20 negotiations and the step towards negotiations, there's 21 no doubt that those are all properly matters that are 22 under the competence and supervision of the Incident 23 Commander, right? 24 A: He takes information from all those 25 points and develops a plan, yes.
1491 Q: Right. And the buck stops with the 2 Incident Commander in terms of it's his responsibility? 3 A: Yes, sir, it is. 4 Q: And to the extent, intelligence or 5 negotiations aren't handled competently and properly, it 6 can very negatively affect the handling of an incident; 7 would you agree? 8 A: Absolutely. 9 Q: And so we've heard from Commissioner 10 O'Grady that he commissioned a report that said there 11 were serious intelligence frailties with Ipperwash and 12 the handling of the incident between September 4th and 13 September 7th, 1995. 14 Were you familiar with that fact that a 15 report subsequently found there were intelligence 16 gathering frailties? 17 A: I don't believe I was, sir. 18 Q: All right. You do know and you 19 pretty well assisted me on that, that the issue of 20 negotiators in terms of its exploration when you were 21 there, wasn't a particularly in depth exploration, 22 certainly with you or that came to your attention, 23 correct? 24 A: It wasn't with me, sir. I know there 25 were attempts to make contacts.
1501 Q: Right. All of those things reflect 2 on how good a job an incident commander does, agreed? 3 You're an Incident Commander right now. 4 I'm just asking you, all of those things and how they're 5 managed reflect on how good a job an Incident Commander 6 does; isn't that true? 7 A: Certainly. 8 Q: Yeah. Could you turn to your duty 9 report. It's in the materials and I'll give you the tab, 10 my apologies. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Thank you very much. Tab 23, please. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Tab 23 reflects a duty report and it 19 may be that it's -- and it's P-1352. I just want to 20 confirm something. 21 I may be missing where you've put the date 22 in and/or you may have testified as to the date of it. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He did testify. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah. I just want 25 to clarify that with you.
1511 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He did testify. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He testified that it 4 was within several days, I believe. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: But he couldn't be more 7 specific than that. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And that's what I'm 9 about to address. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It was shortly 11 after the incident. How long, I don't recall. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 14 Q: Would you agree with me, excuse me, 15 and I'm looking at Exhibit P-1352, the duty report. I'm 16 looking at your handwritten version which accompanies the 17 typed version. 18 The only reason I'm doing that is to be 19 fair to you, sir. You're not responsible for making the 20 typed version, so I don't want to speak to you about 21 that. 22 I want to speak to you about the 23 handwritten version. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: You're an extremely experienced
1521 police officer, even as of September 1995. You are 2 giving a duty report about a use of lethal force. It is 3 the first time lethal force has been used under your 4 charge as -- and you don't put a date on your duty 5 report. 6 Would you explain that please? 7 A: I can't, sir. 8 Q: Would you agree with me that the 9 contemporaneity and I -- don't ask me to say it twice 10 please, of a report, it's timing of the production of a 11 report in the handwriting of the officer in charge is a 12 highly relevant issue to it's reliability? 13 The timing of the production of the 14 report? 15 A: As far as your liability goes? I 16 don't know that, sir. I think it's -- it's probably 17 important to have a date on it, if that's what you're 18 asking me. 19 Q: And you've given us -- 20 A: An undated report could be just as 21 reliable as a dated report. I think that's the 22 difference of the topic. 23 Q: You train police officers as part of 24 your job, yes? 25 A: I trained tactical officers as part
1531 of my job. 2 Q: You're a leader and you're not going 3 to suggest to this Commission are you, that it's 4 insignificant that reports from the point of view of the 5 reliability have dates on them. 6 A: No, sir. I -- I'm agreeing with you 7 that I should've put a date on this report. 8 Q: But as a -- as a matter of 9 reliability, not just administrative filling out a paper. 10 If this report is made out in October or November of 11 1995, that is different than if it's made out the night 12 of or the next morning? There's a difference isn't 13 there? 14 A: There's a difference in its timing, 15 sir. I'm not sure that one may be more reliable from the 16 other. 17 Q: Thank you, I have your answer. 18 Now, the production of this report, I want 19 to direct your attention to a -- a paragraph. We can -- 20 if you don't -- do you mind working with the typed 21 version? Are you satisfied they're identical? 22 A: I'm fine with this, sir. 23 Q: All right. Because I -- I looked at 24 them and they looked identical but if you're at all 25 uncomfortable I'm happy to work with the handwritten.
1541 A: I have a hard time reading my own 2 writing too, sir. 3 Q: Fair enough. Thank you I appreciate 4 it. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would be 6 a lot easier for the rest of us to work with the typed 7 version. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah, yeah. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 11 Q: So it's page 1 of 13:52 that I want to 12 direct your attention to. You said -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 14 what page? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Page 1 of the typed 16 version. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 1. Is 18 that 15:01? 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize. So 22 should I use -- is it more useful to My Colleagues and 23 you, Mr. Commissioner, if I use the top right hand corner 24 page number -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I
1551 don't -- oh, I'm sorry, there is another number. There 2 is another page number. Whichever. There didn't seem to 3 be a number on page 1 except 15:01, but that's the one. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And the next pages 5 that follow you'll see -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 2, 7 that's fine. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 11 Q: So at page 1, the third paragraph, it 12 says: 13 "Approximately 20:30 hours, myself and 14 my team were recalled to respond to an 15 incident near the Park. Approximately 16 20:40 I attended the Command Post at 17 Forest. 18 I was briefed by Inspector Carson and 19 Inspector Linton that a group of First 20 Nations people had attacked a civilian 21 vehicle with baseball bats at the end 22 of Army Camp Road." 23 And then you go on to talk about what you 24 did. Do you see that? 25 A: Yeah. I see that.
1561 Q: Now, what I want to ask you is this: 2 You said to Ms. Vella that the issue of the usage of 3 baseball bats, and I think Ms. Vella said beaten 4 yesterday, the car was beaten with baseball bats, but I'm 5 going to use the term Mark Wright used, 'trashing'. 6 The trashing of a civilian vehicle with 7 baseball bats, Ms. Vella put to you was a major factor in 8 the actions you undertook. And you said it was a factor. 9 Do you remember that exchange between you 10 and her? 11 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 12 Q: The factor of the trashing of the 13 vehicle with baseball bats is the first thing you 14 referred to in your duty report, isn't it? 15 A: It's in my duty report in that order, 16 yeah. 17 Q: And it's also apparently, based on 18 your duty report, the first thing you're told about. 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: Now I can take you to the press 21 release, but the press release of Incident Commander 22 Carson right after the incident, it's the trashing of the 23 baseball bats -- I apologize, it's the trashing of the 24 motor vehicle by Natives with baseball bats that features 25 most prominently in his first press release about the
1571 shooting. 2 I can take you to it, but that's what he 3 names first. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: I can also tell you that when 6 Superintendent Parkin at the time, when Mr. Parkin was 7 asked questions by me about what caused him most concern 8 in -- in the information relayed to him by alternate 9 Incident Commander Linton was the trashing of the car 10 with baseball bats, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So can we all agree that it wasn't 13 just a factor, it was a very significant factor? 14 A: Well, certainly, sir, it was 15 significant. 16 Q: And can we also agree that when you 17 did this duty report it's the first thing that came to 18 your mind is what trouble was relayed to you. 19 A: I think if you were to compare the 20 duty report, sir, and my notes, you'd find that I made my 21 duty report by writing out my notes. 22 Q: Then so -- well your notes get 23 written on September 7th in a hotel while waiting with 24 other TRU officers to see Normal Peel? 25 A: Yes.
1581 Q: So -- so your notes don't help us in 2 terms of that night other than telling us what you 3 recounted the next day and the duty report does just 4 about the same thing doesn't it? 5 A: It does just about -- 6 Q: Right. 7 A: -- the same thing because it was done 8 from my notes, yes. 9 Q: Fair enough. And so all I'm putting 10 to you is that what the statement reflects is in your 11 mind it was the first thing you were told about the 12 incidents on the ground? 13 A: I believe in the order of events that 14 I was told when I arrived that that was one (1) of the 15 first things I was told, yes. 16 Q: And when you say one (1) of the 17 first, I have to be picayune and say does your memory 18 suggest to you you were told something about another 19 incident before the trashing of a car by Natives with 20 baseball bats? 21 A: I -- I think I knew they were out 22 into the parking lot, that type of thing, sir. 23 Q: Because you don't put that first, 24 right? 25 A: No, I didn't.
1591 Q: No. And what I also want to ask you 2 about is that you then talk about what was done 3 immediately after. You say: 4 "Our assistance would be to place two 5 (2) of our two (2) man Sierra teams 6 into a position which they could view 7 the ongoing disturbance at that 8 location." 9 Do you see that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you see how it says: 12 "A group of First Nations people had 13 attacked a civilian vehicle with 14 baseball bats at the end of Army Camp 15 Road?" 16 And then it refers to the ongoing 17 disturbance, yes? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Would you agree with me that that 20 conveys the impression that the ongoing disturbance 21 you're referring to is the trashing of a civilian vehicle 22 with baseball bats; that conduct; that's the ongoing 23 disturbance? 24 Do you see how they follow one another? I 25 was briefed --
1601 A: No, sir, I think that -- I'm not sure 2 that "ongoing disturbance" doesn't refer to the trashing 3 of the vehicles with baseball bats, that had happened 4 already and the people were still in the parking lot 5 area; that's the ongoing disturbance. 6 Q: Fair enough. And now moving to the 7 next thing you refer to. What's the very next thing that 8 you refer to as the information that came to your 9 attention that night in the deployment of your TRU team? 10 What's the very next thing you refer to? 11 A: The next information was the -- about 12 the weaponry, sir. 13 Q: And you -- you ultimately know that 14 that's a list that came from Gerald George otherwise 15 nicknamed Booper to the attention of Officer Dew? That - 16 - you ultimately know that? 17 A: Sometime later, yes. 18 Q: Right. So we'll call it the Booper 19 list, all right? All right? 20 So the Booper list comes to -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 22 think that's a good way to refer to it. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right, the 24 Gerald George list? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
1611 2 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 3 Q: The Gerald George list comes to your 4 attention -- or I apologize, the Gerald George list is 5 the second thing you list as the information that came to 6 your attention that you relied upon in deploying TRU, 7 right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Right. And then if you could flip 10 the page do you see -- and -- and it continues about this 11 information on the top of page 2, yes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Then you go directly to attending at 14 TOC. Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then you refer to the deployment 17 of CMU. Do you see that? 18 A: The deployment of the Sierra teams. 19 Q: And CMU. If you go to the second to 20 last paragraph of page 2 -- 21 A: Okay. You're jumping ahead, yes. 22 Q: I apologize. I'm simply -- you've 23 got Sierra and then CMU. Quite right, I apologize. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: But it's deployment -- further
1621 deployment of TRU and deployment of CMU, correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so it's safe to say that the two 4 (2) items that you in your duty report raise as the basis 5 for movement is the trashing of the car by Natives with 6 baseball bats and the Gerald George list of weaponry; 7 those are the two (2) items you list? 8 A: That's the two (2) I have in this 9 report, yes. 10 Q: And this is a duty report so it's not 11 some idle piece of paper you created, right? 12 It's -- it's your official version as the 13 team leader of TRU on how you discharged your functions, 14 right? 15 A: It reflects my involvement that 16 night, yes. 17 Q: So you knew when you were making out 18 this report the gravity of this report, yes? 19 A: It's a standard report, sir, that you 20 would have to prepare a copy of your notes and a copy -- 21 and a duty report to provide to investigators. 22 Q: So do you want to agree with me 23 though that with a use of lethal force, a death, that 24 creating your duty report in the wake of a death that was 25 caused, or could have been caused by one (1) of your TRU
1631 members made that report of particular gravity in your 2 mind? 3 Can you go with me on that or is that not 4 true? 5 A: I don't think at that point in time, 6 sir, that I thought this was -- this was particularly the 7 most important document in relation to that 8 investigation -- 9 Q: I didn't say the most important, sir, 10 I said it was of gravity, that's all. 11 A: It was part of my role to provide a 12 copy of my notes and my duty report, sir. 13 Q: Thank you. And... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: In terms of that information, the 18 trashing of the car with the baseball bats, and the 19 Gerald George list, now with the benefit of hindsight, we 20 know that both of those major factors were either 21 completely inaccurate or based on very slim information, 22 correct? 23 A: There was difficulties with both 24 pieces of information, yes. 25 Q: Well, could you be fair to me a
1641 little bit? Let me break it down. 2 Have you ever heard or determined that it 3 was actually true that Natives trashed a private 4 citizen's vehicle with baseball bats? 5 Has that ever been proven, to your 6 knowledge -- 7 A: No. 8 Q: -- to be true? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you accept the evidence of 11 numerous witnesses before the Commission that, in fact, 12 that never happened? 13 A: Certainly. 14 Q: All right. So number 1 is completely 15 inaccurate, right? 16 A: Well, if you -- it's in -- it's 17 inaccurate in that the vehicle was trashed with baseball 18 bats, yes. 19 Q: Right. And then number 2, is a 20 reference to a list of weaponry by someone with an axe to 21 grind against the occupiers who hadn't been at the 22 property for a year, right? 23 A: As I'm led to believe sir, yes. 24 Q: Yes. And since September 6th, 1995, 25 no one's ever found all this weaponry, right?
1651 A: Not that I know of. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. I can 4 move on -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've made 6 the point. 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 12 Q: Now, you gave some evidence in 13 respect of the issue of what you perceived about officers 14 and whether they did or did not react to political 15 influence. 16 Do you remember talking about that? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Okay. And in particular, you were 19 asked about John Carson, yes? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You were asked about Mark Wright? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you were asked about Wade 24 Lacroix, do you remember? 25 A: Okay. I'm not sure I remember about
1661 Wade, but -- 2 Q: I thought I did, but if I got the 3 evidence wrong, then I got the evidence wrong. 4 A: It's possible, sir. 5 Q: Well, let me ask you. Let me ask 6 you, the starting point, do your answers that you gave 7 about John Carson and Mark Wright and not appearing to, 8 in any way, give in to political influence, do they also 9 apply to Wade Lacroix? 10 A: Yes, sir, and I didn't see Wade 11 Lacroix at the Command Post until the night of the 6th 12 when he was there preparing for the CMU there, so. 13 Q: All right. Now, I want to talk about 14 your personal involvement. If Exhibit P-427 could be 15 placed in front of the Witness. It's the handwritten 16 scribe notes. It's just one (1) passage that you're very 17 familiar with, Mr. Commissioner. 18 P-427, the handwritten scribe notes. If 19 they could be placed in front of the Witness, please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: You have it in the binder 21 there, sir. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what Tab is 23 that? 24 THE REGISTRAR: 427. 25 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's not the whole
1671 thing though. I'm not -- 2 THE REGISTRAR: No, I've given him the -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Oh, the -- you 4 already have the handwritten version of the scribe notes. 5 If you look at a binder that's beside you, sir, on your - 6 - I believe, on your left. 7 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do we have 9 it somewhere in our binder, no? 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't know what 11 passage My Friend's referring -- 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's the one page - 13 - it's page 450 of the handwritten notes. If it could be 14 put on screen, please. I don't believe it's in the 15 passage that's reproduced at Tab 5. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Page what? 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 450. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: Do you remember much discussion about 23 the political influences, who thought what in the 24 Premier's office or the Solicitor General's office? 25 Do you remember much discussion about
1681 that? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: Is that something that you would be 4 interested in? 5 A: I wouldn't care about it. 6 Q: Should the Premier's views or the 7 views of other politicians about the situation at 8 Ipperwash affect how an officer conducts himself or 9 herself? 10 A: It should not. 11 Q: Is there any reason on earth you can 12 think of why an incident commander -- as an incident 13 commander now and as part of the command team then, was 14 there any reason on earth you can think of why the 15 political views and the political climate would be 16 something that would be communicated, political views of 17 the Premier or others, would be communicated to the rest 18 of the Command Team? 19 A: I can't think of one, sir. 20 Q: Okay. Now at page 449, I just want 21 to satisfy you, if you flip back enough, you should get 22 to a time and a date. 23 That's the trouble with my efforts, on 24 some of these things, they -- I don't have the date. 25 A: I think this is somewhere around the
1691 5th of September. 2 Q: It is, it's September 5th, 1995 and 3 the reference that I am referring to is something that 4 occurs at 6:05 p.m. 5 If you flip back, you'll find -- you'll 6 find a reference to 6:07 p.m. at 448. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: What page, please? 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm at 448 right 9 now. Flip back to 448, you'll see 6:07. 10 THE WITNESS: I see that. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 13 Q: And then if you keep flipping back 14 you'll find the September 5th reference. So if you take 15 my word for it, that it's in and around 6:08 p.m., based 16 on the evidence to date. 17 You're participating in a briefing and 18 John Carson's there. Do you see all that? If you just 19 flip backwards -- 20 A: No, I'm sorry. 21 Q: -- in the previous 449. 22 A: I'm on 448. 23 Q: All right. Now you flip to 449. 24 A: 449. 25 Q: Right.
1701 A: Okay. 2 Q: It's been the evidence of John Carson 3 that SK stands for you. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: And then TR: 6 "A hundred (100) arrest packages, three 7 (3) photos of suspects. Gave to Stan." 8 I apologize, I'm incorrect. That was not 9 the evidence. I apologize. When I said SK standing for 10 you -- 11 A: It could be Stan Korosec. 12 Q: Korosec, yes. I apologize. I was 13 wrong. Keep moving, please. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: To 450. 16 "Advised dinner was good. Advised 17 Skinner of paperwork." 18 And you see: 19 "SKINNER: Have ten (10) guys staying 20 at Pinery with ERT." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: I do. 23 Q: That would be you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So you were participating in this
1711 briefing? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Right. Then: 4 "JC: Video printer. [then] Skinner to 5 get it. 6 JC: If someone can get it tonight 7 being here to office. Skinner be part 8 of command team." 9 Do you see that? 10 A: Hmm hmm. I see that. 11 Q: Right after that instruction that you 12 be part of command team, quote: 13 "Heat from political side. Made strong 14 comments in the House. Court 15 injunction moving along. Keep tonight 16 quiet. Keep on checkpoints; wherever 17 you are, let logistics know." 18 What did you take that to mean, quote, 19 "Heat from the political side, made strong comments in 20 the House," from John Carson? 21 A: I don't recall that at the meeting, 22 sir. 23 Q: Okay. Accepting you don't recall it, 24 looking at it now, do you have any basis to contest that 25 was said by John Carson?
1721 A: I have no basis to contest that. 2 Q: All right. And looking at it, and 3 knowing what you know, is it fair to say, and we've heard 4 from John Carson already about it, but just reading it 5 and looking at it, it's apparent he's talking about the 6 views of political masters, right? 7 A: Hmm. 8 Q: Sorry? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 10 Jones...? 11 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I can rephrase it, 12 so that we don't have to -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- waste any more 15 time on it. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, rephrasing or 17 not, Mr. Commissioner -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it may 19 not -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: This is a -- this is an 21 issue this witness has said he doesn't recall those 22 comments. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: And so to ask him to 25 interpret somebody else's notes and come up with some
1731 kind of an interpretation about what they might mean -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When he 3 can't recall -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: When he can't recall 5 them at all, I -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 7 that helpful -- 8 MS. KAREN JONES: -- really question 9 whether or not that's -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- going to help you -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that 13 helpful. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Mr. Commissioner. 15 Whether it's phrased in this way or that way, it's not of 16 assistance. It's -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 18 why we at least have to hear the question. 19 He said he can't recall it. 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: No. He was present 21 for the meeting and I'm now seeking to refresh his 22 memory. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: About the comments 25 and the context --
1741 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You did. 2 You read it to him and he said -- 3 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- he can't 5 recall it. 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. But 7 with great respect, Mr. Commissioner, I might argue at 8 the end of the day in terms of credibility, that that 9 answer, that pat answer, ought not to be accepted for 10 reasons I'm going to try to bring out from -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 12 don't want to hear your argument now. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: But again -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 15 to hear your argument -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: But that's -- but 17 that's my -- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Mr. Commissioner -- 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- entitlement to 20 challenge -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 22 what -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- his credibility 24 of not recalling it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's your
1751 question, Mr. -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's what I want 3 to do, ask -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, we'll 5 hear -- 6 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- him a question. 7 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 8 object to the language of -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- saying that the 11 evidence provided by this witness is a pat answer. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That is -- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: That kind of offensive 14 language in this proceeding is really unfortunate. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's fine. I 17 don't -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- have to 19 agree with you -- 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Ms. Jones 22 and I do not appreciate that. So let's carry on. 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Fair enough. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25
1761 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 2 Q: You would agree with me, sir, that -- 3 I'm sorry, now I forgot my question. So let me -- 4 because I was going to rephrase something, but in our 5 exchanges, I've forgotten my question. 6 Let me back up. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It couldn't 8 have been all that important, then. No, carry on. You 9 were going to rephrase it. 10 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 13 Q: You had interactions with both John 14 Carson and later Wade Lacroix, correct? 15 A: On the 5th? 16 Q: On the -- subsequently the 6th, Wade 17 Lacroix, and the 5th, John Carson. 18 A: When he came in as part of the CMU 19 team, yes. 20 Q: All right. Could Exhibit P-444A, Tab 21 22 be placed in front of the Witness? P-444A. 22 And please leave that passage open. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1771 A: What tab again, sir, I'm sorry. 2 Q: Tab 22. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 22? Are 4 you talking about P-1341? Is that the -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm referring to 6 P-444A. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I -- 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And there's Tab 22 9 in that. It's -- it's in -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I see. 11 It's in that tab. All right. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: That's right. It's 13 in the separate -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 I'm sorry I don't have that. 16 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I apologize, but 17 it's only one passage I'm reading to the Witness. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 21 Q: At page 182 of Tab 22 the following 22 is said. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry. Can you just -- 24 since none of us have the document, maybe you can just 25 identify what you're reading from?
1781 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Sure. It's the 2 transcript of a conversation of September 5th, 1995 at 3 16:24 between Wade Lacroix and John Carson. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 6 Q: "Lacroix" page 182: 7 "Harris is involved himself and quite 8 uptight about it. 9 CARSON: Okay." 10 A: I'm sorry, sir. In my copy it says 11 male, it doesn't say Lacroix. 12 Q: The evidence is that that's Lacroix. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 14 how reading this is going to help. 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well I -- I first 16 want to put the passage to him then ask him whether this 17 information, as part of the command team, is subsequently 18 conveyed to him by either Carson or Lacroix. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 22 Q: "LACROIX: Harris is involved 23 himself and quite uptight about it. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 LACROIX: And the Ministry, I guess
1791 the Solicitor General, I imagine, is to 2 do a press release momentarily or soon 3 saying law will be upheld no matter who 4 is involved. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 LACROIX: So I would say the signal is 7 that we're going to end up evicted. 8 CARSON: I would suspect." 9 A: End up evicted? 10 Q: Evicting. That word was corrected -- 11 A: It says, "going to end up the 12 victim," it says actually. 13 Q: Right. And it was corrected to 14 evicted. You should know that, that's the evidence, all 15 right? 16 A: All right. 17 Q: So that statement about the Premier, 18 Harris, has involved himself, and that the signal is 19 we're going to end up evicting. 20 What I want to know is whether that 21 information, passed on by Lacroix to Carson, first of 22 all, would that be a consistent with the obligations that 23 the leader of CMU or a high ranking staff sergeant would 24 have in dealing or communicating with the Incident 25 Commander?
1801 Would it be consistent, to your knowledge, 2 as to his functions? 3 A: Well, sir, I -- at this time Wade 4 Lacroix was the Detachment Commander in Petrolia, I 5 believe. Detachment Commanders are constantly involved 6 in the politicians in their area. So I imagine he 7 received the information from that source. 8 I -- I don't -- I'm just surmising and it 9 would be a general discussion with John Carson who is 10 charge of the incident. 11 Q: And the general discussion gets to 12 the point of actually referring to what the officers are 13 going to do as a result of Harris' feelings, correct? 14 "We're going to end up evicted -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 16 minute. Just a minute. Now you're going way beyond 17 asking him if these were brought to his attention. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Okay. That's fair 19 enough. I'll withdraw that. Let me go to the next 20 question. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: Do you recall John Carson discussing 24 with you, or the rest of the command team, we have one 25 (1) note of John Carson raising in your presence, do you
1811 see that? 2 "There's a heat from the political 3 side. Made strong comments in the 4 House." 5 A: I saw that, sir. 6 Q: That was done in your presence, yes? 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No. I'm sorry. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. No. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: This witness has 10 already -- there's an attempt to refresh his memory, he 11 has no memory of this statement. My Friend has to be 12 content with that answer and -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- not keep going back 15 and asking him this was made -- he's asking him to 16 speculate on something he has no recollection of. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 18 right. He said he had no recollection. 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I see My Friend's 20 point. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: You were present at the meeting for 24 which the scribe note refers to those words, correct? 25 A: Yes, those are the scribe notes of
1821 the meeting I was at. 2 Q: Thank you. Did Mr. Carson or Wade 3 Lacroix pass onto you, the view that Harris is involved 4 himself, first of all? Was that passed onto you? 5 A: I have no recollection of that, sir. 6 Q: Would it be appropriate to tell you 7 about that? 8 A: I -- if it was in general 9 conversation and it's just a by the by, I suppose. I 10 don't know if that it's appropriate or inappropriate at 11 that point. If it's -- if it was done as an intent, 12 because they said this, we're going to do this, then 13 maybe that would be inappropriate. 14 Again, as I said, I -- it was no never 15 mind to me if a politician had one thought or another on 16 any tactical operation. 17 So if it was said, I don't remember it. 18 Q: And secondly, were you -- or was it 19 communicated to you that Premier Harris was, quote, 20 "uptight" about the situation? 21 Was that communicated to you? 22 A: Again, I have no recollection of 23 that. 24 Q: And again, my question: Would it be 25 appropriate to communicate that to you, that Harris is
1831 uptight about the situation? 2 A: I don't know what benefit it would be 3 to me as a tactical team leader, sir. 4 Q: Would you agree that in addition to 5 not being of any benefit, for a person that doesn't have 6 your degree of detachment or neutrality, that it could 7 actually pose the risk of creating a political pressure 8 or imperative unnecessarily on an officer who has to 9 exercise their discretion; it could create that danger, 10 couldn't it? 11 A: I suppose in -- hypothetically it 12 could. I think it's made clear to police officers, 13 throughout their career, they are not to react to 14 political pressure. 15 Q: Now, the next thing I want to ask you 16 about was: Was it ever communicated to you by either 17 Lacroix, or Carson, or any other member of the command 18 team, that in view of Harris' feelings that the OPP would 19 end up evicting? Was that communicated to you? 20 A: No, not that I recall. 21 Q: Did you know about these 22 conversations prior to my drawing them to your attention? 23 A: Well, in the subsequent years since 24 the incident happened there's been a lot of press about 25 these types of conversations, sir, so I have heard it
1841 before. 2 Q: Did you know the specifics of what I 3 drew to your attention in Tab 22, P-444A, before 4 testifying yesterday, the specifics of Lacroix's comments 5 about Harris -- 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: -- and evicting? 8 A: No, sir. No. 9 Q: No. And so I take it when you told 10 the lawyers before me about John Carson giving into 11 pressure, Lacroix giving into pressure, or today, it 12 wasn't with the benefit of that conversation, because you 13 didn't know about it, right? 14 A: I don't recall saying anything about 15 anybody giving into pressure, sir. 16 Q: Well, I said when you talked about 17 them not giving into pressure, not appearing to you to 18 give into pressure, right? You said that to My Previous 19 Friends. 20 A: Okay. I -- 21 Q: And you said that without the benefit 22 of this information; isn't that right? 23 A: I'm trying to follow back to your -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- where you're coming from, sir.
1851 Q: Fair enough. 2 A: Yes. No, I -- 3 Q: You said those things. 4 A: -- I've never -- I've never seen this 5 before. 6 Q: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whereabouts 8 are you now, Mr. Falconer? 9 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Almost finished. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 11 almost finished? 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. 14 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: And the time -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're just 16 about four (4) hours -- 17 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So you're 19 almost done? 20 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I expect to be 21 finished in the next five (5) to ten (10) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. Carry 23 on. Then we'll take a lunch break and then I think 24 you'll be up next, Mr. Rosenthal. 25
1861 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 4 Q: I -- it's just me and my notes, but 5 when you made reference to the -- the reconnaissance 6 title or code or Greek lettering, what was the 'R' letter 7 that you used? 8 A: Romeo. 9 Q: Romeo. Thank you so much. Now, 10 Romeo -- I'm not going to -- the term 'Romeo' -- 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: -- it's also to be applied to who 13 within Alpha or who within Sierra? Who was Romeo? 14 A: Traditionally -- or that's -- that's 15 probably the wrong term, usually Mark Beauchesne was one 16 (1) of the officers assigned that. 17 Q: Okay. Well on -- 18 A: And at that time I -- I'm -- off the 19 top of my head I can't recall who his -- his partner -- 20 Romeo was a two (2) man element, so if I could -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Klym. 22 THE WITNESS: -- relate to any other 23 general containment occurrence, I'm not exactly sure. I 24 can't -- 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Beauchesne's partner
1871 was Klym, I believe you testified. 2 THE WITNESS: Klym. Yes, that -- that -- 3 I believe that's correct. Mark Beauchesne, Bill Klym 4 were our reconnaissance team at the time. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 7 Q: And so on -- but in your -- and this 8 was the part that I was a little bit confused on, it 9 could be me. In respect of the night of September 6th, 10 1995, as people were deployed, were they deployed as 11 Romeo? 12 A: No, they were deployed as Alpha -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- as part of the IAP team. 15 Q: So Romeo didn't -- Romeo -- Romeo is 16 not involved? 17 A: No, they are always part of the IAP 18 element and once the -- that element would be established 19 in a position at a -- at an occurrence, Romeo would then 20 go about doing its task of reconnaissance and return 21 probably to the IAP location after. 22 Q: For reasons we've already heard that 23 never happened? 24 A: That's not what they went out as in 25 this case.
1881 Q: All right. Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: You had testified that there was a 6 concern that the appearance of the gun trucks could 7 create an escalation; is that right? 8 A: I think that was Inspector Carson's 9 concern. 10 Q: It's a reasonable concern? 11 A: It can be, yeah. Yeah, it can be. 12 Q: And in a community such as the 13 community that spans Forest, Ipperwash, Northville, Grand 14 Bend, that would be a small enough community that I take 15 it the concern being expressed to you is if gun trucks 16 are on the road, it would soon get from one place to 17 another. 18 A: Certainly. 19 Q: All right. And that night, there is 20 no doubt that you got to Northville with the gun trucks, 21 right? 22 A: I think that's in one of the logger 23 tapes, sir, yes. 24 Q: Yeah. And you're not -- I take it 25 you didn't engage in any speculation, but it's not a
1891 stretch of the imagination for you that someone in 2 Northville who sees the gun trucks might pick up the 3 phone and phone somebody in Forest that are their friends 4 or the community or their family, it's no stretch for you 5 to think that that might have happened? 6 You don't know that it didn't, right? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: All right. And there -- can you 9 please -- you're the best opportunity we have for this. 10 What is the site one would have seen in Northville before 11 you turned around? 12 What -- how many vehicles? One (1), two 13 (2), three (3), how many? 14 A: Well, we had three (3) cube trucks. 15 One was the TOC which is already down at the parking lot. 16 So again, I wasn't there but I would assume the two (2) 17 trucks were travelling, so you'd see two (2) cube trucks. 18 Q: Okay. And what would be the 19 insignias on the cube trucks? 20 A: Large -- the trucks are white with 21 reflective striping, and on the side of the cube truck, 22 in large blue bold print, is the word "Police." On the 23 back of the trucks, on each door, it says "OPP." And 24 again, it has the police insignia all around it and it is 25 marked with emergency lights.
1901 Q: All right. Hence the concern by John 2 Carson about escalating the police presence? 3 A: I can only assume that, sir, it's his 4 concern. 5 Q: All right. Now, the process of -- 6 actually, I withdraw the question, sorry. That assists 7 me. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: The placing of the gun trucks at the 12 Pinery, that was meant to keep it quieter, correct? 13 That's where they -- 14 A: Well, it was our staging location, 15 sir. 16 Q: Right. Did -- 17 A: So if we had to -- I'm sorry. If we 18 had to respond, if we were called out to support a 19 checkpoint, our equipment was there for us to grab to go. 20 Q: And the folks at the Pinery, there 21 would be the officers who were staying there but there 22 would be employees, civilians -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- who would look after you? 25 A: Yeah, that's correct.
1911 Q: Do you recall whether there was any 2 form of confidentiality requirement by the people at 3 Pinery? I mean, I find it hard to envisage, but did you 4 bring people in and say, I -- we're here but we want to 5 keep ourselves low profile. Please don't say anything? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And in fact, to be fair to you and to 8 my question so the world doesn't think I'm an idiot, in 9 fact doing that would probably cause the information to 10 be spread faster; is that right? 11 A: I don't -- I suppose it could, sir. 12 Q: Yeah. And -- but so there was no cap 13 on what the local community that might have worked at 14 Pinery would pass on around the community, right? 15 There was no effort to control that? 16 A: No. Not that I know of. 17 Q: The Pinery was right in the middle of 18 the community. 19 A: Depending on where you place the 20 community, I -- in my view, it was the at the north end 21 of the area we were concerned, so. 22 Q: Okay. But it's between Grand Bend 23 and Forest? 24 A: Yes, it is. 25 Q: And that's where your staging
1921 operations were and so it's not just about the gun trucks 2 in Northville the night of September 6th, 1995. You 3 would have been at the Pinery for how long now? 4 A: Well, we arrived there on the night 5 of the 5th. 6 Q: All right. And so all day on the 7 6th, for those who were at the Pinery and for those who 8 would have received information from those at the Pinery, 9 it would have been apparent that there had been an 10 increased police presence, yes? 11 A: As far as us arriving, yes. 12 Q: And the number of officers arriving 13 as part of this TRU team were ten (10) in number, yes? 14 A: Including myself yes, ten (10). 15 Q: And when they arrived at the Pinery, 16 they would have arrived initially with three (3) or four 17 (4) vehicles, yes? Because you've got your white SUV, 18 yes? 19 A: Probably more than four (4), sir. 20 Q: How many? 21 A: Three (3) cube trucks, two (2) 22 Suburbans and a van, seven (7). 23 Q: Seven (7) ? I got six (6) there. 24 A: Six (6), yes, sorry. 25 Q: All right. Do you know anything
1931 about, you may know nothing about it, or you may know 2 something, I don't know, so I'm asking you, do you know 3 anything about Chief Tom Bressette going on public radio 4 and cautioning the occupiers that there was going to be a 5 movement of police to remove them on the 6th? 6 A: No, sir, I'm not aware of that. 7 Q: Okay. And I didn't finish my 8 question, I just have to finish. 9 A: I'm -- 10 Q: It's okay. It's no problem. 11 A: -- terribly sorry. 12 Q: I'm trying to move quickly. You 13 don't know anything about Tom Bressette going on local 14 radio stations and cautioning the occupiers that the 15 police are going to move against them in the Park? You 16 don't know anything about that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Do you recall any discussions 19 about the fact that women and children were leaving the 20 Park that evening? 21 A: I recall that information. 22 Q: Coming from where? 23 A: I -- I think it was relayed from one 24 (1) of the checkpoints, sir, but... 25 Q: Do you recall whether anybody raised,
1941 in the context of that information, that it might relate 2 to Tom Bressette's announcement on the radio -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- that the police were moving in? 5 A: No, sir. 6 Q: So you don't know? 7 A: That it related to that announcement? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: No. 10 Q: One (1) way or the other? 11 A: I wasn't aware of the announcement, 12 sir. 13 Q: Okay. Thank you. It's -- it's just 14 a gnawing fact so I have to ask you, you made reference 15 to one (1) of the gear that Officer Beauchesne would be 16 carrying would actually be a bag for a long arm? Do you 17 remember? 18 A: No, sir, it wasn't Officer 19 Beauchesne, it was in reference to the snipers. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: They'll sometimes use a -- a bag to 22 carry in their sniper rifle if they're deploying at the-- 23 Q: But there was no sniper rifle? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: So there was no bag?
1951 A: Not that I know of. It may have been 2 a backpack, carrying some other gear -- 3 Q: I just wanted to make sure that I 4 understood your evidence, that's all. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Thank you. Now, I can do this now; 7 it -- it won't take long I just have to look at my notes. 8 But you were unclear on the form of night vision that 9 Officer Beauchesne was using that night. I'm sure it 10 will come from Officer Beauchesne, but referred in the 11 criminal trial is an actual description of a night vision 12 scope on the assault rifle of Officer Beauchesne. 13 And I'm not expert -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- on firearms so if I get this wrong 16 please forgive me. 17 A: Sure. 18 Q: But does that sound consistent with 19 your memory? 20 A: It could be, sir, we had two (2) 21 forms of night vision, one (1) would be a weapons mounted 22 night -- piece of night vision and one (1) would be hand- 23 held. 24 Q: Okay. So we'll leave it to deal with 25 Officer Beauchesne, but I simply wanted to give you that
1961 opportunity to refresh your memory. 2 You testified that -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's been 4 five (5), ten (10) minutes since you said it would -- 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: All right. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- be five 7 (5) -- ten (10) minutes. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm -- I'm in the 9 last -- I'm in my last area. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you just 11 seem to be scratching around, so you're at the end? 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well, I am, when 13 I'm scratching around it means I'm doing my checklist. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 17 Q: When you testified about legal 18 obligations on a police officer and legal 19 responsibilities of a police in discharging his or her 20 firearm, you made a point of saying that a TRU member has 21 no different powers than other officers in terms of 22 discharging their firearm, correct? 23 A: They're governed by the Criminal Code 24 and the Police Services Act, yes, sir. 25 Q: Which is the same for both.
1971 A: Yes. 2 Q: TRU's and non TRU officers, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You made a point of saying that even 5 if a superior officer made a direction to an officer to 6 discharge his weapon, the officer would still have to be 7 satisfied, in his or her own mind, that there was a 8 threat of the nature that would be justified under the 9 Criminal Code for using lethal force? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I take it that was meant to 12 convey that any officer exercising that kind of power has 13 to be satisfied in their own head about the criteria 14 being met for the discharge of the force? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Falconer, is this a question you're asking at the very 17 end of your examination? I don't understand where this 18 is coming from? 19 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I'm -- you'll -- 20 you'll know -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You said you 22 were just about finished. This is a -- 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I am just about 24 finished. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- pretty
1981 important question asking some pretty -- 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 4 fundamental issues involved. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I -- and I'm going 6 to be closing with this and I agree it's primary. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 8 Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 11 Q: You'd agree with me, correct, that 12 was meant to convey that an officer, in their own mind, 13 has to be satisfied with the grounds having been met for 14 the discharge of force? 15 A: Yes. If I could example, sir, if -- 16 if I may, in selection there's -- there's a question 17 that's sometimes posed to potential candidates and they 18 are put into the role of a -- a sniper and they're 19 advised that the suspect is leaving the residence or 20 premise and moving away. 21 And the scenario is put to them that the 22 Incident Commander has ordered you to shoot the 23 individual, would you do it? That's the question that's 24 posed. 25 The correct answer is, of course, no, you
1991 wouldn't, because you don't have the grounds to shoot the 2 individual. 3 The question is then continued: 4 "Information is relayed to you that the 5 persons carrying a body pack bomb and 6 they have indicated to us they're 7 heading for the school which is a 100 8 metres away from his position. Does 9 that now prevent you -- provide you 10 with the grounds necessary to stop this 11 person from potentially killing many 12 children?" 13 And the answer of course would be, yes, it 14 is. 15 Q: And that example, that very helpful 16 example clarified for us that orders are one thing but 17 the officer has to, by way of indirect information, or 18 direct, satisfy him or herself in their own mind as to 19 the necessary grounds for the use of force? 20 A: Or through their own observations. 21 Q: Yes. And you'd agree with me that 22 whether you're talking about discharging a firearm or, 23 for example, exercising the power of arrest, they're each 24 levels of force, aren't they? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you
2001 finishing? 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I am, and I -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It doesn't 4 seem like you are. 5 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well I am. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please bring 7 it to a conclusion. 8 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: With respect I am 9 within -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right, 11 carry on. 12 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: -- I am within -- I 13 am within my time. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Your 15 questions are raising issues of great fundamental 16 importance. I just don't see this coming at the end of 17 your examination. 18 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Well -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's hard 20 for me to follow you. Carry on. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN FALCONER: 23 Q: Okay let me backup. What I last 24 asked you was the use of force in respect of the rules 25 you just talked about, it applies for whether we're
2011 talking about a discharge of firearms or the power of 2 arrest, correct? They're both forms of use of force. 3 A: An officer has to reasonable grounds 4 to make an arrest as well, and if you were advised to 5 arrest somebody you would have to have those grounds 6 supplied to you. 7 Q: In your own head, whether it comes by 8 way of observation or what you're told, correct? 9 A: Or there comes -- by whatever means 10 would come by radio report or a response to a query or 11 your own observations, you would have to have grounds to 12 do it. 13 Q: An officer would be equally wrong on 14 that test if you reframe the word and simply change the 15 words to power of arrest. 16 If someone ordered you to arrest 'X' and 17 simply made the order without giving you the grounds, you 18 would be wrong to make that arrest, wouldn't you? 19 A: Yes. My response should be what am I 20 arresting him for? 21 Q: And then you would have to satisfy 22 yourself those grounds existed. 23 A: I would have to find out what the 24 grounds were, yes. 25 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions,
2021 sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Mr Falconer. 4 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you, Officer. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will 6 adjourn now for lunch. 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 8 Commissioner, I'm just rising on a minor housekeeping 9 issue. You will recall yesterday that I put Inspector 10 Skinner's answer to an undertaking to him that I was 11 remiss in actually asking that it be filed as an exhibit. 12 I only ask that be done now, thank you. 13 Marked as an exhibit, thank you. I provided a copy to 14 Mr. Registrar. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And it's 17 Document 3000408. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What number 19 please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1364, Your Honour. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1364: Document Number 3000408. 24 Answer to Undertakings, June 25 19, 2003, Item 528.
2031 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just one 3 second. Thank you very much, we'll adjourn now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until 1:10. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 12:12 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 1:20 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 afternoon, Mr. Rosenthal. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, 15 Commissioner. Good afternoon, Inspector Skinner. 16 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal. I'm one 20 of the counsel for a group of Stoney Point people under 21 the name Aazhoodena and George family group. 22 You spoke yesterday about police use of 23 force, and especially lethal force, in a way that was 24 very cogent and indicated your concern, even when you're 25 dealing with situations such as TRU deals with sometimes
2041 of where you're dealing with a person who might be doing 2 a terrible thing, like threatening the life of someone 3 else. You're concerned with all life, including even the 4 suspect, right? 5 A: That's correct, sir. 6 Q: Now, police officers are called upon 7 to use force in various situations from time to time. 8 The use of force that has the most potential to be lethal 9 is firearms, obviously, right? 10 A: Obviously. 11 Q: Now, if someone on -- when you were a 12 commander of the TRU team, if someone on the TRU team 13 were to, for example, point a rifle at someone in the 14 course of his duties but not discharge it, you would want 15 to know about that, would you? 16 A: Well, that would be quite common in 17 the course of our duties, sir. 18 Q: Yes. But you would want to know 19 about it? 20 A: I -- I don't -- I -- I would expect 21 it to happen in many circumstances. 22 Q: Yes. It -- 23 A: So I would know it was happening 24 based on the scenario. But as to an individual officer 25 reporting to me at -- at this time I pointed my rifle in
2051 the direction of the suspect, that doesn't happen. 2 Q: Yes. In the course of a TRU 3 operation that would happen dozens of times, perhaps? 4 A: Yes. Yes. 5 Q: Suppose that officers were out 6 somewhere doing something, and in the course of doing 7 something that wasn't a full TRU operation, they had 8 occasion to point a fire -- a rifle at someone, and you 9 were their superior officer, you'd want to know about it, 10 would you? 11 A: I would -- I would probably want to 12 know what the circumstances were of the -- of the 13 incident that they were involved in. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And -- 16 Q: Suppose -- well, suppose officers are 17 making an arrest, say. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And they have a -- and they focus a 20 shotgun on a suspect in the course of making the arrest, 21 and you were the commanding officer of the officer who 22 did that, you would want to know that the arrest included 23 pointing a shotgun at someone, right? 24 A: Well, I suppose if it was a high risk 25 take down, sir, pointing of a firearm during a high risk
2061 take down, it would be a matter of course, I would think. 2 Q: Yes. And you would want to know 3 that -- 4 A: I'd want to know how the take down 5 took place. 6 Q: It's recognized that even pointing a 7 firearm at someone is a serious matter, right? 8 A: Well, yes, sir. 9 Q: Now, as I understand the current 10 regulations under the Police Services Act, if an officer 11 draws a handgun in the presence of a member of the 12 public, he must report that, right? 13 A: That's part of the requirement to -- 14 on a use of force report, yes. 15 Q: Yes. But if an officer points a 16 firearm that's not a handgun, such as a rifle or a 17 shotgun at someone, there's no requirement that he report 18 it, right? 19 A: You're correct. 20 Q: And similarly the Police Services Act 21 has a restriction on the drawing of a handgun -- rather 22 the regulation to the Police Services Act -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- that an officer can only draw a 25 handgun or discharge a firearm, it says, right?
2071 A: Yes. 2 Q: Draw a handgun or discharge a 3 firearm, more general -- 4 A: Right. 5 Q: -- if he believes that it's necessary 6 to protect against loss of life or serious bodily harm, 7 right? 8 A: There are other circumstances as 9 well, that's one of them, sir. 10 Q: Well, what other circumstances are 11 there? 12 A: Could dispatch a wounded animal. 13 Q: Okay. Any other circumstance? 14 A: Or for use as sig -- pardon me -- 15 signalling device. 16 Q: I'm sorry, my hearing -- 17 A: Signalling device. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: I see. Okay. Any other? 21 A: That's what comes to mind, sir. 22 Q: Yes. But am I correct that there 23 doesn't appear to be any regulation that governs when an 24 officer can point a firearm that's not a handgun at 25 someone?
2081 A: It's not covered under that area, no, 2 sir, it's not. 3 Q: It's not covered under the 4 regulations, as far as you're aware? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now, given the -- the concern for 7 protection of life that you indicated, wouldn't you agree 8 that it would be reasonable to have a regulation that 9 would at least somehow circumscribe the pointing of 10 firearms at human beings? 11 A: It -- it may be, sir. It would be a 12 difficult thing to write out, I think, because there's so 13 many variables in that why a person may have that firearm 14 out. But, yes -- 15 Q: But -- 16 A: -- it may be useful. 17 Q: But generally -- generally it would 18 be the same as a handgun wouldn't it, that one shouldn't 19 point a rifle at a human being, nor a handgun, unless 20 there's danger of serious injury or -- or death, right? 21 A: There has to be some threat level 22 there, yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And now the TRU team members, 24 of course, are often in that situation and that's why 25 they often point rifles at people?
2091 A: It's the nature of the occurrences 2 they deal with. 3 Q: But on the other hand, there's no 4 reason that the same restriction that there is for 5 handguns, in that respect, shouldn't apply for rifles 6 pointed at people too, right? 7 A: I don't know why it's written that 8 way -- 9 Q: You don't know why that's omitted? 10 A: I don't know why. 11 Q: Thank you. Now, if you could please 12 turn to Tab 9 of your document brief, it's P-1343. And 13 you've been asked several questions about this, I want to 14 ask a slightly different question. 15 A: Yes, sir? 16 Q: If you turn to page 2 it's a 17 transcript of a telephone call on September 6th, 1995 in 18 the morning at 7:27. 19 On page 2 you're discussing with Acting 20 Sergeant Deane, about a third of the way down you say: 21 "There's other people here who are 22 wanting to do things but I don't think 23 that will happen." 24 Then Acting Sergeant Deane says: 25 "Mark Wright?"
2101 And you say: 2 "That would be one (1) of them. 3 How about Carson? 4 He's a little more steady." 5 Now, I want to ask you the following, 6 which you weren't asked about this. You say there are 7 other people who are wanting to do things and Officer 8 Deane says: 9 "Mark Wright." 10 And you say: 11 "That would be one (1) of them." 12 So can you take your mind back and assist 13 us as to who some of the others might have been, who 14 wanted to do things? 15 A: I'm sorry, sir, I can't be helpful 16 there, I don't recall. 17 Q: It is eleven (11) years later and -- 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: You said, though, with respect to 20 Mark Wright that, taking your mind back you thought, and 21 I -- I gather you can't be really sure about this, but 22 what you might have meant was he might have meant to 23 investigate further the reports of the automatic gunfire, 24 right? 25 A: Yes.
2111 Q: But you're -- you're not sure, eleven 2 (11) years later, that that's what you were thinking of 3 when you said Mark Wright was one (1) of the ones who 4 wanted to do things, right? 5 A: I -- I think you're very accurate in 6 that statement sir, that's -- the best of my recollection 7 would be that, yeah. 8 Q: But do you really have a recollection 9 of that, or are you just sort of putting everything 10 together and thinking that might have been what he was 11 thinking? 12 A: I seem to recall that that's the 13 avenue I was thinking on. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: But you didn't -- it wouldn't have 17 been that all the people were going to investigate the 18 automatic fire when you say other people were wanting to 19 do things, so presumably -- isn't that fair? 20 A: That's fair. 21 Q: So, presumably, you were aware that 22 there were some officers who wanted to take some more 23 actions of various of types; you can't now recall eleven 24 (11) years later what types, is that fair? 25 A: That's fair.
2121 Q: And -- but then Carson was not among 2 the ones that you were thinking of, evidently, who wanted 3 to do more things? You indicated when he asked, How 4 about Carson, you said, He's a little more steady. 5 He wasn't in the group that you were 6 thinking of who wanted to do more things, whatever that 7 might have been, correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Thank you. Okay. Now, I'm going to 10 play for you, if I may, and I'm sorry, Mr. Commissioner, 11 I apparently had the wrong document number on this, and 12 so on, but there is a tape of a transcript of a telephone 13 call, Region 6. 14 On -- on the transcript it says Region 6 15 Kent Skinner/unknown female/Jen Edwards/Alex Dagastino, 16 September 6th -- September 6th, 1995, 07:42 hours. 17 And it's Mobile Command Logger Tape Number 18 2, Track 2, Disk 1 of 3. Now I don't believe this -- I 19 was confused and I -- I checked with Ms. Vella. 20 I don't believe this has been made an 21 exhibit as a transcript, but what I'm interested in is if 22 this Officer can assist us with who is talking in the 23 background as he's talking on the phone. 24 So, sir, I should like -- Ms. Vella's 25 going to play this and there are two (2) passages that I
2131 would like you to particularly listen for. One (1) 2 towards the beginning and one (1) towards the end. 3 A: Is this in my folder to follow along, 4 sir? 5 Q: And it's not in your folder but I -- 6 well I -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: It's at Tab 12. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I thought it was 9 at Tab 12, but it's not at Tab 12 in Ms. Vella's folder. 10 Is it at Tab 12 in your folder, sir? 11 Does -- does the one at Tab 12 say 'Region 12 6' on the top? 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir. It says Region 14 4. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It says Region 4 16 so, yes, it's in Tab 12 in some of our binders but not 17 in -- not in the Commission counsel's and in this 18 Officer's, so perhaps -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the 20 time -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- do you have an 22 extra copy -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the time 24 7:42? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Okay,
2141 so -- 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The transcript in 3 question is not in the Commission counsel brief. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Do we 5 have a copy of it somewhere that we can look at while 6 you're -- 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I -- I only have it for 8 the screen. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. So, Mr. 10 Commissioner with -- well, I'll give you my copy. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, no, it's 12 all right, I'll listen -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: Now, Officer, we're going to play the 17 tape and -- 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: -- what I should like you to pay 20 particular attention to, I'll warn you ahead of time so 21 you can listen as it's playing. You see at about six (6) 22 lines down it says KS, and that's you evidently, saying, 23 Okay. 24 And then there's -- in the background 25 there's some discussion and I should like you to assist
2151 us as to who is speaking in the background. 2 And I can tell you that several persons 3 think it's Mark Wright. But I want to know what you 4 think. 5 A: All right. 6 Q: And then similarly, with respect to 7 page 3 of the transcript -- 8 A: Page 3. 9 Q: It says K -- about a third of the way 10 down: 11 "KS: Sure will." 12 And then in the background, and again, if 13 you could assist us as to who apparently is behind you 14 speaking as you're speaking on the phone. 15 So thank you and with that introduction we 16 can play the tape. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 20 [KS = Sergeant Kent Skinner] 21 [TS = Transport and Supply] 22 [MW = Sergeant Mark Wright] 23 [JE = Jim Edwards] 24 [JC = Inspector John Carson] 25 [AD = Alex Deagastino]
2161 TS: Good morning, Transport and Supply. 2 KS: Hi. It's Kent Skinner calling again. All 3 I've got there is voice mail. I need to 4 talk to somebody if I could. 5 TS: I guess you didn't - you don't have any 6 time to wait for them to call you back? 7 KS: Well, no, I don't. 8 TS: Just a moment. I'll try another line. 9 KS: Okay. 10 Background conversation: 11 12 MW: That little gate back there, that's open. 13 Unknown: Okay. 14 MW: So what I would suggest you do, those 15 fucking kids are trespassing. We grab 16 those fucking kids. 17 Unknown: .... inaudible 18 MW: Well, teenagers. Grab - arrest them and 19 we'll bring them back here and we'll give 20 them a ticket, Trespass to Property Act. 21 Unknown: ... inaudible 22 MW: Yeah. They're parked there. 23 Unknown: ... inaudible 24 MW: Well - 25 JE: Hello?
2171 KS: Hello. How are you? 2 JE: Good. 3 KS: It's Kent Skinner calling, TRU Team out of 4 London. 5 JE: Yes, sir. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: Okay, thank you. And Ms. Vella just 9 informed me she can pause it and she has. So -- I don't 10 know what's -- what's possible here. 11 Now, sir, do you recognize any of the 12 voice in the background there as you're speaking? 13 A: The one voice appears to me to be 14 Mark Wright. 15 Q: It does appear to you to be Mark 16 Wright? 17 A: Yes. There's another person talking 18 as well that I can't tell who that is. 19 Q: I see. Can you -- of the words that 20 are transcribed here, can you tell us which ones you hear 21 the voice that you recognize as Mark Wright as saying? 22 A: The most -- most of them are. I 23 think the sentence starts with, Are you talking, I don't 24 think that's Mark's voice saying that. 25 Q: Okay. So in the transcript, which I
2181 will propose to make an exhibit after, Mr. Commissioner. 2 Oh, thank you very much. Somebody is handing me a copy 3 for you, Mr. Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Got an extra 5 copy? Good, thank you. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry for the 10 confusion, Mr. Commissioner, but -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 12 That's okay. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- some of us have 14 it at Tab 12 and some don't. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Now, sir, so then looking at the 18 transcript, page 1 thereof, am I correct in understanding 19 you that you're saying that beginning, "That little gate 20 there," and continuing up to, "We grab those fucking 21 kids," you identify as Mark Wright; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then, "Are you talking," is 24 someone else? 25 A: Yes.
2191 Q: And do you recognize that someone 2 else or no? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: Okay. And then -- then does Mark 5 Wright again take up with the, "Well Jesus?" 6 A: That's what it sounds like to me, 7 sir. 8 Q: Okay, so -- and then from, "Well 9 Jesus grab them, arrest them" and so on, "Good work 10 there" is -- is Mark Wright? 11 Is that correct, sir, according to your -- 12 A: That's what it sounds like to me, 13 sir. 14 Q: Now, Ms. Esmonde, who can hear, as 15 opposed to me, I'm very hard of hearing -- says that when 16 she listens to the tape she hears, instead of "Well 17 Jesus", she hears "well, teenagers"; is that what you 18 heard, sir? 19 A: To me that sound -- I would agree 20 with her. It sounds -- 21 Q: You agree? 22 A: -- more like, "well, they're 23 teenagers" than it's saying "well Jesus". 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, thank you. So 25 this transcript should be corrected --
2201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can I mark 2 this one up -- 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: -- instead of "well Jesus" it should 6 say "well, they're teenagers" or "well, teenagers" or 7 something to that -- 8 A: That's what it sounds like to me, 9 sir. 10 Q: Well teenagers. Thank you. 11 Okay. So then we're going to then 12 continue with the tape with the goal of reaching page 3 13 and with a similar request that you identify the voice 14 if -- 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: -- you can? 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 19 20 KS: Who have I got here? 21 JE: Jim Edwards. 22 KS: Jim Edwards? 23 JE: Yeah. 24 KS: Jim, I'm up in Forest Detachment. Right 25 now we've got that Ipperwash thing going
2211 on. 2 JE: Okay. 3 KS: And what I'd like to get is four sets of 4 the police markings for cruisers. 5 JE: Okay. For what reason? 6 KS: Well, we need them to put them on our - 7 some vehicles. 8 JE: Okay. You're going to have to go through 9 Alex Deagastino [phonetic]. If he gives 10 me permission, I'll send them out to you. 11 Do you want to hold on one sec? 12 KS: Yeah. 13 JE: I'll transfer you up to him. 14 KS: Thanks. 15 JE: Thanks. 16 KS: [To someone else: You can't make me move 17 anywhere.] 18 19 Background conversation - multiple voices 20 21 MW: Well, it's wide open, eh? 22 JC: Yeah, I know. But ... inaudible ... 23 24 Background - muffled, inaudible 25
2221 MW: Do you want to take some guys down to take 2 those guys away from the arrest? 3 JC: And the other thing is, make sure Evans is 4 there with at least one video camera and 5 video it. Because if anybody starts 6 moving towards us, I want it on video. If 7 any rocks are flying or anything, I want 8 it on video. 9 JE: Hello? 10 KS: Hello. 11 JE: I'm just going to transfer you now. 12 KS: Okay. Thanks. 13 14 Background conversation 15 16 MW: Do we put him up in the air with a camera? 17 That would be the best shot. 18 JC: Well, I think we need somebody in the air 19 but leave the video on the ground. I want 20 somebody up in the air with the eye. You 21 could put Speck or you can arrange for 22 somebody to be up there. 23 Unknown: Speck is going to be the - 24 Unknown: He's going to be - 25 Multiple voices
2231 Unknown: ...inaudible ... chopper here shortly. 2 Multiple voices 3 JE: I'm having a hell of a time getting hold 4 of him. He's on his way over here now. 5 Can you hold on one more second? 6 KS: Sure will. 7 JE: Thanks a lot. 8 9 Background conversation 10 11 JC: ... those guys standoff until we're ready 12 to go ... inaudible ... wake up the whole 13 town, and then when the guys are ready to 14 roll . . . inaudible . . . 15 Unknown: ... inaudible from here. 16 JC: Well, even if he's out - back out of the 17 way, we can't hear him. 18 Multiple voices 19 20 Unknown: It's going to take a bit of time to get 21 the . . . inaudible . . . and the wagons 22 . . . They'll have to make two loads, 23 though. 24 Unknown: Okay. 25 JC: Maybe they can just grab them, haul them
2241 down to the TOC site, and dump them off - 2 Unknown: Yeah, all right. 3 JC: Okay? 4 Unknown: Yeah. That's fine. 5 6 Multiple voices 7 8 AD: Hello? 9 KS: Hello. 10 AD: Yeah. 11 KS: Alex? 12 AD: Yeah. 13 KS: It's Kent Skinner, TRU Team out of London. 14 AD: Yeah. 15 KS: How are you today? 16 AD: Not too bad. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: Now, sir, with respect to that 22 passage on page 3, can you assist us as to who might be 23 speaking there? 24 A: Well, I hear John Carson's voice. 25 Q: You hear John Carson's voice?
2251 A: Yes. 2 Q: Can you tell us which part of the 3 transcript that says, "in background" you attribute to 4 John Carson's voice? 5 A: You're referring to the section in 6 the middle of page 3, sir, where it starts -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- "in background, inaudible". 9 Q: We can play it again if it would be 10 of assistance? 11 A: I don't want you to do it again. The 12 section where it talks about it'd "take a bit of time to 13 get the half-ton wagon down there", that's not John's 14 voice. I'm not sure who that is. 15 Q: So, "it's going to take a bit of time 16 to get the half-ton wagon down there" sounds like Carson 17 to you? 18 A: No. It does not sound like Carson. 19 Not -- 20 Q: Does not sound like Carson, I'm 21 sorry. But the part before that does? 22 A: The part before that does -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- and -- the part after that. 25 Q: Sorry, sir just to clarify, it
2261 appears to be Carson saying "those guys to stand off 2 until we're ready" up to -- 3 A: Up to -- 4 Q: -- "so you can't hear it"? 5 A: -- up to, "it's going to take a bit 6 of time" -- 7 Q: And then, "it's going to take a bit 8 of time" is someone else speaking -- 9 A: It is. 10 Q: -- not Carson? Okay. 11 A: Yeah. I'm not sure about, "They'll 12 have to make two (2) loads"; that may be somebody else. 13 And then I think it's Carson again that finishes off 14 the -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- next couple of lines. 17 Q: And the -- the other person speaking 18 there, can you assist us? 19 A: I -- I couldn't when I heard it the 20 first time, sir. 21 Q: I see. And could you be quite 22 certain it's not Mark Wright for example or...? 23 A: To me that does not sound like Mark 24 Wright in -- 25 Q: It doesn't sound like Mark Wright in
2271 the middle? Okay. 2 A: Not on -- on page 3, sir, it doesn't. 3 Q: Yes. So Carson on either end of it 4 and in the middle someone who you can't assist us with? 5 A: Yeah, I'm not sure who that is. 6 Q: And then there is another portion of 7 background material that I hadn't drawn your attention to 8 on page 2 which includes someone calling you, "Hey, Kent" 9 and so on. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: I -- I should have perhaps for 12 completeness asked you to listen carefully to that part 13 too. Did you happen to notice who was speaking there? 14 A: I -- I think that's Mark Wright. 15 Q: I see. The "I ain't moving away" and 16 so on -- everything that you see in that excerpt there 17 you think is Mark Wright? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No. I see. 20 A: Not everything, sir, I think the, "I 21 ain't moving away," that sounds like me. 22 Q: That sounds like you? I see. 23 A: I might be in the way of somebody 24 trying to walk by or something, I don't know. 25 Q: Okay. So the, "I ain't moving away.
2281 You can't make me move away," and so on up to, "We're 2 going to need that," is Kent Skinner as far as Kent 3 Skinner's concerned; is that right? 4 A: To -- the first part, "I'm not 5 moving. You can't make me anyway" that's me. After that 6 I'm -- I'm not certain but the part in the next section, 7 the -- 8 Q: Where it says -- the other part that 9 says, "Hey, Kent" -- 10 A: Do you want -- 11 Q: -- and so on -- 12 A: I think -- I think that's Mark -- 13 Q: -- up to on video is Mark Wright -- 14 A: I think that's Mark Wright. 15 Q: -- speaking to you? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Thank you. Thank you, sir, I'm sorry 18 for the confusion. Thanks for getting us out of some of 19 the confusion anyway. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 21 going to make this an exhibit? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir, I -- I 23 should like to -- I don't have a good copy for it but 24 perhaps the Witness copy if we could -- we could make 25 that the next exhibit.
2291 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1365, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1365: Reserved. 5 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And it just needs to be 7 corrected to reflect what the Witness' evidence is. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. Thank you. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Now... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now the -- sorry, the -- the part -- 18 part of the transcript of that previous exhibit that you 19 identified as John Carson for us, I believe, included: 20 "When the guys are set to roll [and 21 then] they'll be jumping off." 22 You recall that part, sir? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: So you were evidently present during 25 this?
2301 A: Yes. 2 Q: And, "And the guys are set to roll," 3 sounds like when somebody's doing an operation of some 4 kind? 5 A: Yes, it does. 6 Q: Can you assist us as to what 7 operation was being discussed at that point? 8 A: I hate to use the word 'I think' but 9 I think it is the operation to remove picnic tables that 10 were in -- piled up in the Park -- parking lot. 11 Q: I see. Thank you. Now, you were 12 asked by Mr. Falconer about the possibility of 13 negotiations that you had flagged for Inspector Carson at 14 one point and in the course of your discussions with Mr. 15 Falconer you mentioned the bullhorns use in order to get 16 someone to get on the telephone for example. 17 There'd be other uses for bullhorns 18 sometimes too, right, to direct people in some way? 19 A: Yes, you could. 20 Q: Now -- so the TRU team would carry a 21 bullhorn as standard equipment would it, sir? 22 A: Yes, sir, they do. 23 Q: And more than one (1)? 24 A: I think there were two (2), yes. 25 Q: Two (2). And it would be important
2311 that those be in good working order if you're going out 2 to a call of this type? 3 A: As it is with all of the equipment, 4 it should be in working order, yes. 5 Q: But that -- that is something that 6 might be used in various situations to communicate with 7 people and that would be an important way of diffusing 8 situations perhaps, right? 9 A: Yes, and the experience of -- that I 10 had on TRU it was generally used as method to initiate 11 negotiations; that's the only experience I had with -- 12 Q: To initiate negotiations? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Or perhaps to warn people, to 15 instruct them to do certain things, gave you -- you know, 16 if -- if you don't put that -- if you don't put down that 17 gun we're going to shoot you or something like that? 18 A: No, sir, I've never had it used for 19 that purpose. 20 Q: You don't -- they don't ever say, 21 Drop it or we'll shoot, through a bullhorn -- 22 A: I don't recall ever being -- 23 Q: -- to somebody holding a hostage? 24 A: -- that ever being done through a 25 bullhorn, sir.
2321 Q: I see. 2 A: I -- it's usually done verbally but 3 not through a bullhorn. 4 Q: I see, okay. So as -- as an Incident 5 Commander, which you now are too, you would know that TRU 6 teams carry bullhorns as a matter of course, right? 7 A: I -- I guess I had that familiarity 8 since I have the background of being a member of TRU, 9 sir. An Incident Commander may not be familiar with 10 every piece of equipment that a TRU team carries. 11 Q: Was -- was there any discussion at 12 all that you can recall and again I appreciate the time 13 delay but about use of a bullhorn to communicate with the 14 occupiers in this event? 15 A: No, sir. Not that I recall. 16 Q: Now with respect to the possibility 17 of negotiations, you told Mr. Falconer earlier today you 18 recall something about the difficulty of finding people 19 to negotiate with or words to that affect, right? 20 A: Yes. I re -- I recall officers would 21 go to the fence line and wouldn't get a response. 22 Q: Do you also recall any indication 23 that there was some politicians who were taking the 24 position that there shouldn't be any negotiations? 25 A: No, sir.
2331 Q: Were you aware of any such 2 indication? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: Now again Mr. Falconer asked you 5 about the incident involving a car that had driven by and 6 that where the facts were -- turned out to be quite 7 different from the facts initially thought, right? 8 When initially it was thought at least in 9 some police circles that there was a woman driving by 10 attacked by eight (8) people with baseball bats. It 11 turned out there was a man in a car with a rock, right? 12 I'm just setting the stage for my question 13 on that. 14 A: Yes, sir. I'm not -- I don't recall 15 it being a male/female, but yes -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- as far as the baseballs go. 18 Q: In any event there is evidence -- 19 it's in the scribe notes I won't turn you to that 20 Inspector Linton took the position that -- early that 21 evening, September 6th, that before acting he wanted a 22 written report of that incident which it was understood 23 an officer by the name of Poole was in the process of 24 compiling. 25 Okay? I'm just telling you that's
2341 evidence we have. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Now you told us that Inspector Linton 4 was methodical kind of person. 5 A: That's my experience with him, yes. 6 Q: Yes. And that would perhaps be an 7 indication of that, that he would want to see a report 8 before acting on some information that he wasn't sure 9 about, right? 10 A: It would cer -- it could certainly be 11 an indication of that, yes. 12 Q: And you weren't aware though of 13 Inspector Linton's concern in that respect that evening 14 or -- or do you not recall whether or not you were aware? 15 A: I don't believe I was aware of that, 16 sir. 17 Q: Were you aware that evening of the 18 allegation that something had happened with a car and 19 that's one of the things that led to the concern about 20 that night? 21 A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir, I was aware 22 about the -- 23 Q: You were? 24 A: -- civilian. My information that I'd 25 received was a civilian car had been trashed by baseball
2351 bats by -- 2 Q: I see. 3 A: -- a group of the occupiers. 4 Q: And were you aware that there was a 5 constable who was in the process of finding out more 6 information about that? 7 A: I -- I don't believe at the time I 8 was. 9 Q: I see. Well in retrospect now, 10 Inspector Linton had a good point, didn't he; let's wait 11 and find out and verify that information before we act? 12 A: I -- I suppose we would have received 13 a more accurate story. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And it's hard to tell how that would 17 have affected the operation that night. 18 A: It is hard to tell. 19 Q: Yes. I'm sorry? 20 A: It is hard to tell, you're correct. 21 Q: But it might well have made a 22 difference, right? From your understanding? 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 24 how this Witness can say or anybody can say that. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, sir, with
2361 great respect -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You ask a -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- if anybody can, 4 he can. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 6 don't know if he can. We can -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And -- I mean, he 8 was somebody in the Command Centre and he's now an 9 Incident Commander and he -- but in any event he's given 10 us an answer. I'll move on. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Now you told us that from what you 14 observed, you didn't observe Staff Sergeant, I guess he 15 was at the time, Wright, acting aggressively although he 16 was energetic and dynamic, I think were the words you 17 might have used, right? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: Now, were you aware that he, in 20 discussing Inspector Linton's behaviour on that evening 21 with Inspector Carson on the telephone, said words to the 22 affect of that when Carson asked him what's Linton want 23 to do, he said, Oh, he's waffling, and he said -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes...? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm
2371 sorry, but I think it's clear from the record that 2 Inspector Skinner wasn't even at the TOC at that time. 3 So to put a question to him are you aware of this phone 4 call when he's not even there, I'm not sure is going to 5 give you very much help. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm not suggesting 7 he heard the phone call. If I could finish my question 8 perhaps -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, start 10 again -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- a proper 12 objection can be made. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and let's 14 see if he can finish the question. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: In fact, I'll -- 16 I'll phrase it in a way that accommodates My Friend. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: I take it you were not aware, were 20 you, that Staff Sergeant Car -- Wright had responded to 21 Inspector Carson's question as to what's Linton want to 22 do, with words to the effect of, Oh, he's waffling and 23 Why don't we just go get those fucking guys; you were not 24 aware of that, right? 25 A: Not at the time, sir. I wasn't aware
2381 until this kind of evidence was starting to be made 2 public. 3 Q: Yeah, until the Inquiry? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And if you'd been aware of that you 6 might not have answered so definitively that Mark Wright 7 was not acting aggressively that night, right? 8 He says, "why don't we just go get those 9 fucking guys" might sound aggressive to you as it does to 10 me, no? 11 A: Well, perhaps the terminology is not 12 appropriate in the manner in which he says it but he 13 could be referencing let's -- let's go make some arrests. 14 It's the language that's not appropriate. 15 Q: Well, even if he just said, Why don't 16 we just go get those guys, without any expletives, that 17 would suggest -- 18 A: That he wanted to -- he would -- 19 Q: -- perhaps a level of aggression, 20 would it not? 21 A: I'm not sure the term 'aggression' is 22 -- is appropriate, sir. I mean, if you're going in to 23 make an arrest I don't consider that to be aggressive. 24 Q: I see. What about if he tells 25 someone on that evening, We're going to fucking war;
2391 again, even without the expletive would you agree that 2 sounds aggressive? 3 A: I would agree that that sounds 4 aggressive, sir. 5 Q: If you say, We're going to war, with 6 or without an expletive, that sounds pretty aggressive, 7 right? 8 A: It's an aggressive statement. 9 Q: Yes. Now, if you could please turn 10 to your Tab 6 which has part of the scribe notes, the 11 printed ones which are -- the entire version of which is 12 Exhibit P-426, if you could turn to your Tab 6 and page 13 77, please, of the scribe notes. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: Excuse me a moment. I have to get to 16 page 77 too. 17 At 21:00 hours there's the entry which you 18 corrected during your examination-in-chief. It reads: 19 "Kent Skinner request roads entering 20 from both areas" 21 which doesn't make sense and you corrected 22 it to what you obviously meant was that the roads 23 entering from both areas be closed, right? 24 A: Yes, that's correct, sir. 25 Q: And that was because of your concern
2401 for the safety of the public, right? 2 A: Yes, sir. Part of the -- I think as 3 I expressed, a part of the principles of containment 4 would be to isolate the scene from the rest of the 5 community. 6 Q: Absolutely. And you weren't sure 7 exactly what was going to happen that night but you knew 8 it was a serious enough matter that TRU was there and 9 that was enough to say let's keep people out of this area 10 if we can, right? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: For safety's sake? 13 A: Yes, sir. Absolutely. 14 Q: And it wasn't your responsibility, 15 however, to ensure that that was done? You made the 16 suggestion -- 17 A: I would make the request of the 18 Incident Commander and he would then -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: -- in turn request -- if he agreed 21 with me, have it done. 22 Q: Yes. And you don't know, in fact, 23 whether it was done or not? 24 A: I -- I seem to recall, sir, it was 25 sometime later I asked about if they had been closed off.
2411 Q: You did? 2 A: I think there's somewhere in the logs 3 that I did make that request, but... 4 Q: Well, we have evidence from various 5 officers which suggest that that was not done. In 6 particular, Stan Korosec was in charge of the checkpoints 7 and he was asked if the checkpoints were told to stop 8 people from going on the road and he said he didn't 9 recall that? 10 A: All right. I seem to recall having 11 asked -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 13 minute, before you answer the question your Counsel -- 14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- has an 16 objection. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, the 18 first thing, that is not in any way, shape or form, a 19 fair or accurate rendition of Stan Korosec's evidence. 20 He was asked a variety of questions about checkpoints and 21 one of the things he made clear, for example, is that the 22 Sergeants, the ERT Sergeants, would be responsible for 23 moving checkpoints and other activities related to them. 24 I think he said, from time to time, he 25 didn't know what was going on at certain checkpoints.
2421 I -- I don't recall any evidence from him 2 on the -- on the evening of September the 6th that there 3 were -- that the roads were not closed. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I can assure you 8 that Stan Korosec was asked about the checkpoints by me 9 and he indicated that he wasn't given any such direction 10 to the checkpoints. But in any event, I'm -- I'm willing 11 to move on though -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 13 willing to move on. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- because -- 15 because he doesn't know about this. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's no 17 point arguing if you're moving on. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I -- I would 19 request that if somebody accuses me of not saying the 20 evidence correctly that they then state the exact 21 evidence -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would 23 be -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- that they say 25 I'm -- I'm mis-stating.
2431 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Usually we 2 do that, Mr. Rosenthal, you're right. They shouldn't 3 accuse you of being inaccurate unless they can tell us 4 what is accurate so. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In any 7 event, you're moving on, so let's move on. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: In any event, I'm 9 moving on. I -- I am trying to be very expeditious, Mr. 10 Commissioner, I hope you realize that. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 12 that. I had forgotten what your time estimate was, so. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I had said one (1) 14 to two (2) hours and I'm -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- but no matter 17 what my estimate I'm always trying to shorten it. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but 19 you're going to at least be no longer than that, in any 20 event. Is that right? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I expect, although 22 objections can't be planned for. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Now, if you could turn -- we were at
2441 page 77 of the scribe notes and if you could turn back 2 one (1) page please, sir? 3 A: Yes, sir? 4 Q: And there are two (2) entries. I 5 just want to set the stage for something that we've heard 6 much about on page 76 at 20:49: 7 "JOHN CARSON: All we are doing is 8 observation, we're not going tactical. 9 Let's get that straight." 10 And then a couple of paragraphs down: 11 "JOHN CARSON: We are using TRU to go 12 in and get an eye. If they are just 13 having a campfire let's leave them. 14 Why go in the dark?" 15 That's what I particularly wanted to flag 16 for you, sir. And I gather that those instructions from 17 the Incident Commander never changed really; is that 18 right? 19 A: As far as which aspect, sir? 20 Q: Well, the instructions that -- 21 A: They were the instructions given to 22 the Sierra -- for me to deploy the Sierra teams in that 23 manner, yes. 24 Q: Yes. But when he says: 25 "All we're doing is observation, not
2451 going tactical." 2 But then particularly important, the next 3 one: 4 "We're using TRU to go in and get an 5 eye. If they're just having a campfire 6 let's leave them." 7 So the aspect that never changed, as far 8 as you were aware, is if they're not doing anything 9 dangerous let's just not interfere, right? 10 A: That didn't change. 11 Q: That's what you understood by him 12 saying, If they're just having a campfire let's leave 13 them. You didn't require a campfire, exactly? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: What -- what he meant by that was as 16 long as they're not threatening anybody else let's wait, 17 it's dark, it's night, let's not do anything, right? 18 A: I believe that's what he meant. 19 Q: And as far as you were aware, that 20 never changed? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2461 Q: Now, it appears that nowhere in the 2 scribe notes is there recorded the decision to put the 3 CMU on the road, as far as anybody's been able to tell up 4 to this point. I don't know if you can contradict that? 5 A: On the scribe notes from the Command 6 Post, sir? 7 Q: In the scribe notes, which you just 8 have an excerpt in your binder, there doesn't appear to 9 be any sentence to the effect of CMU ordered to go out on 10 the road or anything that says that in that clear way? 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And we've had various evidence from 13 different people as to when they thought that decision 14 might have been made, and so on. 15 Now we do have, however, a contemporary 16 account in your notebook. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Where you told us it was not as 19 contemporary as it should have been -- 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: -- but it was within a day of this 22 event, which is more contemporary than eleven (11) years, 23 right? 24 A: Right. Yes, sir. 25 Q: And so I should like to look at your
2471 notes and highlight a couple of things, if I may. So 2 that's at Tab 22 of your binder Exhibit P-1341. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And I should like to look at 7 beginning page 32 of your notes. 8 A: Yes, sir? 9 Q: And this is of course the evening of 10 September 6th. And towards the bottom of that page, I'm 11 not going to deal with everything here by any means, but 12 you indicate: 13 "The Sierra report still difficult to 14 advance. Determined to move. [Sorry] 15 Determined to move CMU into position 16 onto roadway about 400 metres from 17 scene." 18 Did I read that correctly, sir? 19 A: You did, sir. 20 Q: And I believe your evidence was that 21 it was your estimate that it was about 800 metres between 22 the TOC and the sandy parking lot; is that correct? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: So what you recorded here is the 25 decision to move CMU roughly halfway down the road?
2481 A: Correct. 2 Q: And then it continues that: 3 "Perhaps that will divert Natives from 4 Sierra team to enable them to move into 5 position." 6 Right? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: So this is all totally consistent 9 with the command of the Incident Commander that we looked 10 at earlier about, observe, find out what's happening, 11 don't attack, right? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And turning to the next page then. 14 You indicate there, about a third of the way down the 15 page, that you: 16 "I advised CMU to form up again." 17 This was after it was determined that it 18 was not, in fact, a weapon, right? 19 A: I think it says: 20 "I advised CMU and they form up again." 21 Q: Thank you. But then again, it was 22 your understanding they were staying away from the sandy 23 parking lot at this point, right? 24 A: At that point, yes, sir. 25 Q: Did you know at that point, when you
2491 had them form up again, how far they were from the sandy 2 parking lot? 3 A: No, sir, I didn't. 4 Q: But you assumed they were following 5 the instructions of going, at most, halfway? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: And then, similarly, a little bit 8 further down you see it says: 9 "CMU advances." 10 And again I would put it to you, you had 11 no indication they might be advancing closer than four 12 hundred (400) metres in the sandy parking lot, right? 13 A: Yes, sir. I -- I'm just having a 14 hard time finding where you are here again but -- 15 Q: Yes. Well -- and the line begins 16 "Radio," slightly below the middle of the page there. It 17 says: 18 "Radio, CMU advances." 19 A: Yes. Yes, sir, I'm sorry. I found 20 it now. 21 Q: Right, but in any event, however it 22 appeared on this page, no where on this page did you 23 expect did you expect them to go beyond the four hundred 24 (400) metre limit, right? 25 A: Not at that point, no.
2501 Q: And then slightly later on: 2 "I hear a CMU advance." 3 And then you have parenthesis: 4 "(Radio Lacroix)." 5 So you're indicating that you could tell 6 from what you heard Officer Lacroix say on the radio that 7 the CMU was advancing? 8 A: Or he was ordering them to advance. 9 I don't recall exactly, sir -- 10 Q: Or he ordered them to advance? 11 A: -- but yes. 12 Q: And again, though, still not closer 13 than 400 metres, though. There's no indication that 14 they'd go closer than 400 metres. 15 A: I think -- at this point I wouldn't 16 know exactly where they were out -- 17 Q: No. 18 A: -- on the roadway, sir, but. 19 Q: No. But you were assuming, were you 20 not, that they were still obeying the order to go 21 halfway. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then the next entry after that: 24 "I hear Lacroix giving commands on 25 radio."
2511 And then a little bit later it says: 2 "CMU backup." 3 Am I reading that correctly? 4 A: Backs up. 5 Q: Back up. 6 A: Backs up. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: With an 's' on the back, yes. 9 Q: And so at this point you have no idea 10 that they are closer than 400 metres to the sandy parking 11 lot. 12 A: At that point I didn't know that, no, 13 sir, you're right. 14 Q: And then the next entry you have -- 15 A: Well -- 16 Q: "I hear a commotion on the radio --" 17 A: I guess I should backup -- I should 18 backup a little, sir. If -- when I wrote this on -- my 19 order is perhaps incorrect. Obviously they have a 10-92 20 so I note at that point they're up and made contact. 21 Q: I'm sorry, you knew at which point 22 they made contact? 23 A: Well where you -- where we read, "CMU 24 backs up," if you look at the line above that: 25 "Report of one 10-92."
2521 So somewhere in there I -- in before that 2 area of the backing up, I knew that they were now in 3 contact with the occupants. 4 Q: I see. Okay. So that's -- so you 5 knew -- 6 A: Because they -- 7 Q: -- they had made some contact -- 8 A: -- because they -- 9 Q: -- somehow? 10 A: Somehow, because they'd taken a 11 prisoner. 12 Q: But you had never, before that time, 13 authorized them to go more than 400 metres down that 14 road, right? 15 A: No. It wasn't my authority to 16 authorize them, but I had -- that information had not 17 been relieved -- relayed, to the best of my recollection, 18 sir. 19 Q: And you weren't aware of anybody 20 countermanding the order of stop 400 metres from the 21 Park? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: Okay. Well then perhaps we could go 24 then to your Tab 21, which is the Exhibit P-438, which is 25 the logger tape for the very crucial time from 10:27 p.m.
2531 to 11:10 p.m. 2 A: Yes, sir. I have that. 3 Q: And the second entry on that page, 4 attributed to Lacroix -- on the first page, attributed to 5 Lacroix is: 6 "TOC to CMU. We're advancing to 7 within, ah, three hundred (300)." 8 Isn't that odd, shouldn't it be CMU to 9 TOC, if Lacroix is talking, or do I misunderstand? 10 A: No, you're correct. 11 Q: But in any event -- 12 A: It's -- if it's Wade Lacroix talking, 13 you should have that the other way round. 14 Q: He's the CMU informing TOC that he's 15 advancing to within 300 metres. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So you had a notion of 400 metres, he 18 evidently had 300 metres. Same ball park, correct? 19 A: Pretty much, yeah. 20 Q: And 300 metres would still be 21 sufficient to stop any direct engagement? 22 A: Well -- 23 Q: One would think. 24 A: It's a substantial stand off, anyway, 25 sir.
2541 Q: I'm sorry. 2 A: Stand off of distance, anyway. 3 Q: Yeah, it's quite a distance in the 4 dark. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Down a country roadway. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: 300 metres is -- is sufficient, so 9 you wouldn't fault -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- Lacroix for going 300 metres 12 instead of 400 -- 13 A: Apposed to 400-- 14 Q: -- metres? 15 A: No, sir, I wouldn't. 16 Q: And then the next entry -- sorry, two 17 (2) entries below for Lacroix, but still on this same 18 page, it says: 19 "Good news. They've got rocks and 20 sticks piled up and we all know that we 21 can beat that. Rocks and sticks, 22 that's in our bailiwick. All we have 23 to worry about is little brown stocks 24 and black barrels." 25 Now that much, I'm going to take up the
2551 rest in a moment. That much you were asked about in- 2 chief and you indicated your understanding that he was 3 indicating that guns are something we have to be careful 4 about, but -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- rocks and sticks are something 7 we're equipped to handle, right? 8 A: That's correct, yes. 9 Q: But then he says: 10 "Okay, we're going advancing in a 11 moment, advance." 12 Now, you would have heard this, 13 presumably, in the TOC? 14 A: Again, it would have come across the 15 radio in the TOC, but at that moment in time I may not 16 have been listening to the radio. 17 Q: I see. Do you recall if you heard 18 this, or not? 19 A: No, I don't, sir. 20 Q: I see. In any event, if you had 21 heard it, you would have assumed, would you not, that he 22 was going to advance no more than 400 metres, perhaps 300 23 metres from the sandy parking lot, right? 24 Because that was the last -- 25 A: That's --
2561 Q: -- order, right? 2 A: Yes. Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now if you could turn to page 6 of 7 that transcript, please. 8 About in the middle of the page there's an 9 attribution to Hebblethwaite that says: 10 "Contact squad." 11 A: Yes. Contact squad, back up contact 12 squad. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: What was your understanding of what 16 was meant by "contact squad?" 17 A: Well, as I -- I didn't have a good 18 knowledge of CMU at the time, but they're broken into 19 eight (8) man elements; left flank, right flank, contact 20 squad and an arrest element. 21 Q: So the -- the contact squad, as the 22 name suggests -- 23 A: Would be the front group. 24 Q: Would be the front group that would 25 make initial contact if contact were to be made?
2571 A: Yes. 2 Q: But at no time, did you, in the 3 command centre, get any indication that there was 4 anything other than a campfire going on in the sandy 5 parking lot that would require contact, right? 6 A: Yes. We did not receive intelligence 7 or information on what was happening in the parking lot, 8 correct. 9 Q: But then at the -- towards the bottom 10 of that page of the transcript, you say, according to the 11 transcript: 12 "Take up a defensive position." 13 Right? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And that's after Lacroix informs you 16 that they're on provincial property, which you explained 17 to us you understood to mean they were back in the Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: At this point I take it you still 20 would have thought that they were some 300 or 400 metres 21 from the sandy parking lot; the CMU. Is that correct? 22 A: Well, I -- I'm not sure, sir, but I 23 would think if Wade was giving me information they're 24 back onto the Park property, that he would be, at that 25 point, obviously closer than that to have seen that.
2581 Q: Well, if you had thought that 2 wouldn't you have been concerned about them going -- 3 getting too close and perhaps -- perhaps provoking a 4 confrontation? 5 A: I suppose I could have, sir, but at 6 that point I also asked him to get back into his -- 7 Q: You asked him to get back? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes. So you -- you didn't see 10 anything that justified a confrontation and you didn't 11 want one to occur? 12 A: Well, if they had moved back onto the 13 Park that was the objective the Incident Commander 14 desired, sir, was to put them back into the Park and at 15 that point -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- pull back. 18 Q: But then on the next page of the 19 transcript, attributed to Hebblethwaite, at the top of 20 the page it says: 21 "TOC from CMU..." 22 Again, there's only -- it should be CMU -- 23 oh, sorry, that is correct, TOC -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- from CMU. Sorry.
2591 "...Be advised that we're at the 2 perimeter." 3 Now, I don't know if you recall whether or 4 not you heard that transmission, sir? 5 A: Well, I -- I responded to it, sir, so 6 I would imagine I heard it. 7 Q: You -- you say: 8 "Request hold your position." 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So you did hear that? What did you 11 think the perimeter meant? Did you think it meant the 12 perimeter of the 400 metre or 300 metre zone? 13 A: No, sir, at that point -- 14 Q: Or the Park? Or the -- 15 A: -- I think I thought they were a lot 16 closer than that at that point. 17 Q: The perimeter of the sandy parking 18 lot? The perimeter of the Park? 19 A: Yes, I -- I think in my mind I think 20 that that was the perimeter of the parking lot; they were 21 at the edge of the parking lot. 22 Q: And you -- you asked them if they 23 were in a position of cover and they indicate that they 24 were not in a position of cover and you tell them to take 25 cover; is that right?
2601 A: Yes. 2 Q: When it says: 3 "TAC 1 there. Take cover." 4 Who -- who is TAC 1? 5 A: TAC 1 -- well -- 6 Q: Or would that be you? 7 A: I -- I should -- I'm using the wrong 8 vernacular myself, sir, sorry, I should have been talking 9 to Lima 1. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: But that's you when it says -- the 13 entry that says -- 14 A: Are -- 15 Q: Sorry, I'm -- I'm talking about -- it 16 says: 17 "Skinner." 18 And then it says: 19 "Hebblethwaite." 20 And then it says: 21 "TAC 1, take cover --" 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "-- and maintain your position." 24 Do you see that entry, sir? 25 A: Yes, I do, sir.
2611 Q: So I'm -- I'm wondering is that you-- 2 A: That -- 3 Q: -- saying take cover -- 4 A: No, that -- 5 Q: -- and maintain your positions? 6 A: No, I don't believe that is, that 7 would then be -- well, it's one of the CMU members, 8 whether it's Hebblethwaite or Lacroix, I'm not sure. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: Obviously they're repeating what I 11 had said to them a couple of lines earlier. 12 Q: But then at the top of page 8 it 13 says, attributed to Lacroix? 14 "Get ready for it. Get ready." 15 And then: 16 "Ready, ready, go, go." 17 Right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, do you recall hearing those 20 commands? 21 A: I don't have a recollection -- a 22 specific recollection of those exact commands, no, sir. 23 Q: But words to that effect? 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: But that -- that would suggest that
2621 that's when they were advancing? 2 A: Some -- something is about to happen 3 there, yes, he -- whether -- he's responding to something 4 he sees, by the sound of it. 5 Q: Now, in your examination by Ms. Vella 6 she asked you about: Were you aware of a punch-out by 7 the CMU? And would it be your understanding, knowing 8 everything you know now, that this probably was the time 9 of the punch-out? 10 A: This probably would be -- could be 11 described as a punch-out, yes, sir. 12 Q: And you certainly didn't order that 13 punch-out? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: And as far as you were aware, neither 16 did Inspector Carson? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And you were right near Inspector 19 Carson at the time? 20 A: We were standing close to each other, 21 yes. 22 Q: And do I understand correctly that 23 Inspector Carson was making the formal decisions, but you 24 and he were very seriously consulting about those 25 decisions and you were the one who relayed them; is that
2631 correct? 2 A: That's correct, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: So throughout this entire episode up 7 to and including the punch-out and then including the 8 shooting you were not aware of any information that would 9 have justified the CMU making contact with the people in 10 the Park, right? Or the sandy parking lot? 11 A: I didn't receive information at the 12 TOC about that, sir. I -- 13 Q: That would've -- you didn't receive 14 any information that would have suggested changing the 15 order that we agreed was in place at some eight o'clock 16 that evening or whenever about, Find out what's 17 happening, if they're having a campfire, leave them 18 alone, right? 19 A: That -- that information -- the 20 information like that did not come back to the TOC. I 21 don't know what Wade Lacroix saw on the ground that made 22 him do that. 23 Q: You don't know why he did what he 24 did -- 25 A: That's correct.
2641 Q: -- but you didn't have any 2 information that suggested changing that original order. 3 A: You're -- you're right, sir. 4 Q: And in parti -- and then therefore, 5 it's obvious but just to clarify, there was no order that 6 emanated from you or Inspector Carson as far as you're 7 aware, for them to do that advance -- 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: -- make contact with them, correct? 10 A: You're correct. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now you told Inspector Carson after 15 the event the essence of what Sergeant Ken Deane had told 16 you. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: Namely, you told him in particular 19 that he had shot a man who he understand was holding a 20 gun and he had seen that man drop to the ground and be 21 carried back or get back into the Park, correct? 22 A: Yes. Yes. 23 Q: Did you tell him anymore detail than 24 that you recall? 25 A: I don't believe so.
2651 Q: But you would have told him that much 2 at least? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now, if you could turn to Tab 26 5 please. Tab 26 has been entered as Exhibit P-1355 and 6 this was put to you. This is a phone call from Rob 7 Graham relaying a message which he says is from Lacroix 8 about meeting Norm Peel, right? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: Now you just say thank you. It's 11 apparent I would suggest to you that you were aware ahead 12 of time before this that you were likely to be meeting 13 with Norm Peel at some point, right? 14 A: I don't recall, sir, to be honest. 15 Q: Well, I would suggest to you 16 otherwise you would have said, Who's Norm Peel, What am I 17 meeting with him about, What are you talking about, 18 right? 19 A: Well I -- I knew Norm Peel was a 20 lawyer, sir. 21 Q: You knew he was a lawyer? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: This is -- 24 A: Obviously this was after the shoot -- 25 after the shooting.
2661 Q: Yes, this is only a little bit after 2 the shooting though. It's at -- according to the time on 3 the transcript it could be off by seven (7) minutes but 4 September 7, 1995 at 1:28 hours. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: So it's within two and a half (2 1/2) 7 hours of the shooting and -- 8 A: We would have know by that point 9 that -- 10 Q: Did you say -- he informed you that 11 Norm Peel's going to be at your barracks tomorrow at 8:30 12 and you'd say, Thank you. You don't ask anything else. 13 So you must have had some prior indication had known that 14 Norm Peel -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You said 16 between one (1) and two (2) hours, would this not be 17 eleven (11) or twelve (12) hours I think? Wouldn't that 18 be 1:28, 1:00 in the afternoon or in the morning? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, sir? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's that 21 1:28 refer to? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I believe that 23 means just after midnight. I believe they use a twenty- 24 four (24) hour clock. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just after
2671 midnight, is at night is that what it is? Okay, I'm 2 sorry. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Am I correct, sir? 4 THE WITNESS: It's 1:30 -- almost 1:30 5 a.m. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: It's 1:30 a.m. so 7 it's two and a half (2 1/2) hours after the shooting. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. By that time, sir, we 9 would have known there was going to be an SIU 10 investigation. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER FALCONER: 13 Q: Yes. You knew there was an SIU 14 investigation? 15 A: Certainly. Or there was going to be, 16 yes. 17 Q: And was Norm Peel a lawyer that you 18 were familiar with because he'd been used in similar 19 circumstances previously? 20 A: No. No. I was just -- I knew the 21 man before that. Of the man anyway. 22 Q: You knew -- I'm sorry? 23 A: I knew of him. 24 Q: You knew of him before then? 25 A: Yes.
2681 Q: You knew he was a lawyer? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: But you hadn't requested a lawyer? 4 A: Not that I know of that I could 5 recall, sir. 6 Q: So Norm Peel was not retained by you 7 to be your lawyer? 8 A: No. 9 Q: But -- 10 A: At -- at this time, sir, if my memory 11 serves me correct, I was en route with Inspector Linton 12 to receive -- recover weapons. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: So I would have been in the car with 15 Inspector Linton at the time. 16 Q: At the time you received this call? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And now when he said, "Be at your 19 barracks tomorrow at 8:30" even though it was the 20 beginning of September 7, you would have assumed it was 21 that evening, right? 22 A: I'm not following that question, sir. 23 Q: He says he's going to be at your 24 barracks at eight o'clock, 8:30/8:30, you would have 25 taken that to mean 8:30 p.m., September 7, 1995 or 8:30
2691 a.m. September 8 -- 2 A: a.m. 3 Q: -- 1995? 4 A: a.m. 5 Q: You would have taken it to mean a.m.? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I see. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Yeah. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: So you never retained Mr. Peel as 15 your lawyer? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: And so you did, as you told Mr. 18 Falconer, meet with members of the TRU team and Mr. Peel 19 in a hotel? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Did Mr. Peel tell you who he was 22 representing; who had retained him as their lawyer? 23 A: Yes, Ms. Jones...? 24 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: I object, Mr. 25 Commissioner. This quest -- this type of questioning
2701 about people's lawyers, what advice they're given by 2 their lawyers, what they know about a lawyer is 3 completely inappropriate in this proceeding. 4 It's privileged information. He doesn't 5 get to ask this Witness about that kind of matter. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With great respect, 7 Mr. Commissioner, he said that he never retained Mr. Peel 8 as his lawyer. There is no privilege that pertains as 9 far as I know. 10 If My Friend is aware of a privilege, she 11 should state the nature of it. It's not solicitor/client 12 privilege, evidently. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 14 don't see this -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 17 solicitor/client privilege -- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the fact of a 19 retainer actually is privilege information and asking 20 this Witness about what other people's -- other people's 21 retention, this Witness' retention is not, in my 22 submission, appropriate questioning. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 24 said, Ms. Jones, that this is not his lawyer. He's never 25 retained him.
2711 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- do I need to 2 respond, Mr. Commissioner? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 4 not sure. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The fact of who Mr. 6 Peel eventually represented is a matter of public record, 7 since he went on the record for the late Ken Deane, so I 8 don't see there is privilege to that. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 10 haven't seen any privilege or issues of privilege so far. 11 We'll see how it goes. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, this 13 is not talking about who represented Ken Deane at his 14 trial. This is talking about a circumstance on the night 15 of September the 7th and in terms of who retained Norm 16 Peel and any other questions like that, in my submission, 17 it is inappropriate questioning. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Now it's -- it's 20 gone down from being privileged to being inappropriate. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I need 22 to -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- basis for -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- hear the 25 next question.
2721 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- appropriate -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I need to 3 hear the next question. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I need to 6 hear the next question. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if it's 9 a question that's objectionable, Ms. Jones, you'll 10 object. Yes...? 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Now, sir, you were, very frankly, 14 told Mr. Falconer that it's important that witnesses not 15 have their evidence perturbed, perhaps unconsciously, by 16 learning about what other witnesses have said and so on, 17 right? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: You recall all that? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: I'm not going to remind you of the 22 whole discussion. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. You're 24 not going to repeat the evidence -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I'm not going
2731 to repeat -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that Mr. 3 Falconer went through, yes. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I'm just 5 setting -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- a context so 8 you'll understand the relevance of this line of 9 questioning. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Okay. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner. 12 And hopefully to forestall further objections that don't, 13 in my respectful submission, have any merit. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: Now, you -- so evidently, he didn't 17 come to the barracks as -- as this was stated, but you 18 met at a hotel instead; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: What -- or -- what did -- what did 21 the barracks mean to you? 22 A: The Pinery. 23 Q: At the Pinery, I see. Now, when you 24 spoke with Mr. Peel, what did he ask you about? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, now
2741 we're getting into areas that I'm not sure -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- may hold 4 some question of privilege. 5 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: -- this is privileged 6 between a person and a lawyer and these questions are 7 privileged. The questioning is inappropriate and, Mr. 8 Commissioner, I'm going to object and I'm going to ask 9 that you rule and cut off a line of questioning where 10 this Counsel is trying to solicit information from a 11 witness about that kind of area. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just let me 14 hear from Ms. -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- there is no 16 basis -- if she can assert the basis of privilege, I 17 would respectfully request that she point to some area of 18 law that suggests that. 19 A lawyer is no more privileged than anyone 20 else with respect to this conversation expect -- except 21 with respect to his or her client. 22 And it's the client's privilege only and 23 the client is not this person and as it's well known if 24 you divulge information to other persons the privilege is 25 feciated and I don't understand the nature of this
2751 objection. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: As far as the 4 relevance, I'm happy to speak to it as much as necessary, 5 Mr. Commissioner, but I don't believe that that -- My 6 Friend has attacked it on that ground. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 8 Vella...? 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Rosenthal is right 10 in his submission as to what falls within the scope of 11 solicitor and client privilege; it's communications with 12 respect to legal advice given in the context of a 13 solicitor and client relationship. 14 However, I think that the first question 15 that must be asked before you can rule on this is whether 16 or not Mr. Peel was in fact retained to be the 17 Inspector's lawyer and I, with respect to My Friend, 18 great respect to My Friend the fact of a retainer in my 19 submission is not covered by solicitor/client privilege; 20 it's the communications which transpire which are. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: So first we have to 23 know whether or not he was his lawyer. If he was then -- 24 then of course the Witness must be cautioned with respect 25 to privilege.
2761 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I 2 thought he already -- 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If it's a matter of 4 litigation privilege and I haven't heard that, that 5 privilege expires when the litigation concluded and 6 unless there's some other litigation I'm unaware of then 7 that doesn't apply. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Ms. Vella might 9 have missed it with respect but I did ask him at the very 10 beginning -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- did he retain 13 you as his lawyer -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and he indicate 16 -- did you retain him as your lawyer and he indicated he 17 did not retain him. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said no. 19 I thought you did. Yes, Ms. Jones...? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Just -- just in comment 21 about the scope of privilege, Mr. Commissioner, the 22 privilege applies to anyone seeking legal advice 23 irrespective of a retainer. I actually -- the privilege 24 is actually broader I believe than that stated by your 25 Counsel.
2771 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, there's no 3 assertion of privilege here, Mr. Commissioner, and I 4 should like to move on if I may and the relevance is 5 obvious in my respectful submission. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 7 relevance is -- you were going to address the relevance. 8 You want to do that? 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I would happily 10 speak to that. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 12 to do that? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: As -- as this -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At this 15 point I don't see a privilege, at this point. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I'm 18 making a ruling that this is a proper question. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, what 21 about its relevance? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: As far as 23 relevance, as this officer has acknowledged and any 24 officer would acknowledge, information that flows between 25 witnesses can change their story even if they're honest
2781 witnesses. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is the 3 area -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And that -- and 5 that doesn't matter if it flows directly from one (1) 6 witness to another or it goes through a third person. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And if that third 9 person is the lawyer representing a defendant in a case I 10 wish I had that privilege -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- when I'm 13 representing someone -- when I'm defending someone to 14 have all the possible witnesses come to see me and talk 15 to me before they talk to anybody else and tell me what 16 they learned and I tell them what I learned. 17 In any event it obviously affects -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But you're 19 not -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- credibility of 21 all the evidence and I should -- as this -- as this 22 person can I cite as a witness in support of that and I 23 just want to explore it a bit. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 25 using the word 'privilege' in the sense that it was used
2791 in the legal sense when you said you wished you had that 2 privilege? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, when I said I 4 would like that privilege I meant -- yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You meant 6 that opportunity. Yes. Now, this is an area Mr. 7 Falconer covered at some -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- but he 9 didn't -- he didn't ask the question I'm asking because 10 otherwise it would have been objected to before. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He -- he didn't ask 13 what happened in that room. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That's -- that's 16 what I had asked and I'm not -- I'm not being repetitious 17 at all, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, Ms. 19 Jones, what's your objection now? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 21 as -- if I understand what Mr. Rosenthal is saying and -- 22 and I might not, he's talking about what happens between 23 witness -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: -- potential witnesses
2801 and a third party being the lawyer. I'd really like to 2 be in that position he says. 3 And this is really a concern, Mr. 4 Commissioner. You have apparently, someone asking a 5 witness about information, dealings with a lawyer, other 6 people are involved with the lawyer. This is not the 7 appropriate subject for this Inquiry, Mr. Commissioner. 8 This is -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On the basis 10 of relevance or on the basis of privilege? What are you 11 arguing? Or you -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: If -- if -- as I 13 understand Mr. Rosenthal's question, his area of concern, 14 is what various people told Mr. Peel and Mr. Peep -- told 15 -- and what Mr. Peel told various people. My objection 16 is that of privilege. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I'm 18 not sure it's privilege but I'm not sure how relevant or 19 helpful it is to our investigation. Ms. Vella, would you 20 like to comment on that? 21 I mean, I could see where Mr. Falconer was 22 going and try and establish some of the questions that he 23 asked seemed to me to be relevant, but to go into the 24 substance of what was discussed at the meeting I'm not 25 sure --
2811 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- how that 3 helps me. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: First -- first of all, 5 I think we need to establish whether or not the 6 communication was in the nature of a provision of legal 7 advice. It may be that the bounds of privilege have gone 8 beyond a formal retainer -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- as long as the -- 11 the conversation or communications is in the form of 12 providing legal advice to the person who's being spoken 13 to. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well we -- 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm not -- I don't know 16 if that's been absolutely established. But if the 17 suggestion is, were you provided with a summary of 18 evidence... 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If you were provided -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're just 22 saying all you have to do is say 'privilege'. Just say 23 the word 'privilege' and just watch lawyers rise -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah no. I -- I -- no, 25 no, I --
2821 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- a red 2 flag -- 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- I appreciate. The 4 relevance as I understand it has to do with whether or 5 not this Witness' evidence, a recollection of events, was 6 somehow influenced however by what transpired in a 7 lawyer's office. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's why 9 the questions that Mr. Falconer asked seemed to me to be 10 relevant and we -- there were no objections and I 11 certainly thought they were relevant. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And I thought that 13 that's what Mr. Falconer was doing and -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- I think Mr. 16 Rosenthal is pursuing that. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But he seems 18 to be going beyond that and seems to be going into -- 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Are you going beyond 20 that? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- the 22 substantive -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Of course I'm going 24 beyond Mr. Falconer. I'm not asking the same questions. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well but --
2831 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I'm pursuing 2 that line to try to find out more information which will 3 be of great assistance to you, Mr. Commissioner. 4 We have -- we have a tip of an iceberg 5 here. And we've seen the -- seen other parts of the 6 iceberg previously. But I think there's more objection 7 and perhaps I should wait for that and deal with it all 8 at once... 9 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Commissioner, good 10 afternoon. The wonders of technology. I have taken the 11 liberty of pulling up the rules of Professional Conduct 12 from the Law Society because as you're aware, 13 Commissioner, this area of law is not governed only by 14 solicitor/client privilege. It's not the only area that 15 governs the subject matter. But obviously lawyers are 16 responsible according to the Body that governs us. 17 Rule 2.03 governs confidentiality or the 18 current rule does. And what it states is: 19 "A lawyer at all times shall hold in 20 strict confidence, all information 21 concerning the business and affairs of 22 the client acquired in the course of 23 the professional relationship and shall 24 not divulge any such information unless 25 expressly or impliedly authorized by
2841 the client or required to do so." 2 The commentary goes on to indicate that 3 this is distinguished from solicitor/client privilege. 4 And this duty extends not only to communications from an 5 ultimate client, for example, Sergeant Deane, but would 6 also extend to information gathered in the course of 7 meeting with potential clients. 8 I respectfully disagree with Mr. 9 Rosenthal's characterization that as a lawyer taking on a 10 case, if you meet with a witness, that information is not 11 confidential. It is indeed confidential and certainly I 12 would never be, permitted as a defence, when acting in my 13 role as a defence counsel to disclose information that 14 was provided to me through a witness because it would be 15 potentially to my client's detriment. 16 I think also what the Commission has to be 17 aware of or be sensitive to with respect, is the context 18 in which the meeting with Mr. Peel takes place on the 7th 19 of September. 20 You've got to be clear, Commissioner, with 21 respect, he's not acting as Ken Deane's lawyer, he is 22 giving legal advise. It is not clear what the retainer 23 is and frankly I don't think that Inspector Skinner has 24 that information to provide. 25 Aside from that, it's in the context of a
2851 potential SIU investigation. At that time my 2 understanding is no one knows who was a subject officer, 3 no one knows who's a witness officer, they are consulting 4 counsel receiving legal advice and that is all in my 5 respectful submission, covered by privilege. That 6 privilege cannot be pierced. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 8 My Friend reads from the Law Society Rules governing what 9 a lawyer can reveal. If Mr. Peel was on the Witness 10 stand and I was asking him questions, that might be 11 relevant. 12 I would hope that you would not count the 13 last twenty (20) minutes of objections by these people as 14 my time, sir. There's no objection that's valid in law. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's a 16 more fundamental issue than time. We're going to have 17 deal with this. I need to think about this. I need to 18 think about this. I'm going to take a short break now. 19 You've said all you want to say on this? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've said 22 all you want to say? Do you want go ahead and ask the 23 questions now? 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well I -- I can 25 indicate -- I can speak more about the relevance if
2861 that's a concern for you, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There's been no -- 4 and also I -- I should -- I could make some more 5 foundational questions about privilege and relevance if - 6 - if it would assist. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 8 think you should make your submissions because I want to 9 go out and think about this and decide whether to pursue 10 this or whether or not to. I mean you should. I mean 11 I'm -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I -- it might 13 be helpful if I were to ask the Inspector a couple other 14 questions, sir, as a basis for those submissions. 15 Not -- not about the -- not about the 16 allegedly privileged information but to lay a foundation. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 18 Go ahead. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: To take into 20 account all those concerns. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 24 Q: Now, sir, did you at any time feel 25 that you were a possible suspect or a subject officer, as
2871 it's called in this investigation? 2 A: Entirely possible that I could be a 3 subject or a witness officer in this case, sir. 4 Q: I see. A subject or a witness 5 officer? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: But you would have expected witness 8 officer, right? 9 A: In this case I would have expected 10 witness -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- probably. 13 Q: And you didn't at any point feel that 14 you had to retain a lawyer to help you to deal with 15 possible problems -- 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- about your being 18 a subject officer? 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 20 would like to request a short recess for a couple of 21 minutes. I need to talk to Mr. Skinner. If there are 22 questions that are going to be coming up about his 23 retainer and his legal retainer -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 25 short break.
2881 MS. KAREN JONES: I need an opportunity-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want a 3 short break. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- to do that. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like a 7 short break. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Mr. 9 Commissioner, I don't believe that his Counsel should be 10 able to advise him as to how to answer these kind of 11 questions at this point. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Given the nature of 14 the objection, sir. 15 We're talking not about this Counsel, this 16 lawyer. We're talking about Norman Peel as lawyer and he 17 told us he did not retain Mr. Peel in any way. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: I am not advising -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She should 20 or shouldn't? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Pardon me? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: One question that 24 hasn't been asked is whether he went to see Mr. peel in 25 order to get legal advice. But in any event, I think
2891 that Counsel -- a privilege has been raised and I think 2 it's appropriate for Counsel to have a moment with her -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So do I. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- client to discuss 5 the issue of -- of privilege -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So do I. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- within all the 8 bounds of the rules of professional conduct. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So do I. I 10 think it's perfectly proper for Counsel to speak to him. 11 I'm going to call an adjournment right now. Thank you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 2:37 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 3:03 p.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Everybody's 20 on their feet. Do you have some more that you want to 21 say? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: I do, Mr. Commissioner. 23 Thank you very much for the brief adjournment. I've been 24 advised by Inspector Skinner that when he went to meet 25 with Mr. Peel he did so for the purpose of obtaining
2901 legal advice. 2 He did obtain legal advice and he is 3 claiming privilege over that meeting. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's move 8 on, Mr. Rosenthal. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I -- may I 10 ask the Witness if he would consider waiving that 11 privilege. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: His Counsel 13 has got an observation. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I've 15 stood up and I have made Inspector -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A claim 17 for -- 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Skinner's position 19 clear. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: He is claiming 22 privilege over that meeting. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's move 24 on. 25 MS. KAREN JONES: And to go -- try and go
2911 around that is really, really inappropriate. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're not 3 going there. Would you please then move on, Mr. 4 Rosenthal. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's move 9 on. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I shall, indeed. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I know, 12 I know. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I just have to see 14 exactly where I'm moving. It could take me a minute -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Now, sir, evidently after the 20 shooting and the immediate aftermath, you drove Staff 21 Sergeant Lacroix back to the Command Post from the TOC; 22 is that correct? 23 A: Yes, sir, that's correct. 24 Q: That would be a fifteen (15), twenty 25 (20) minute drive, perhaps?
2921 A: It's approximately that. 2 Q: And in the course of that drive, did 3 Officer Lacroix explain to you why he had gone all the 4 way to make contact with the people in the parking lot? 5 A: I honestly don't recall the 6 conversations we had on the way back, sir. 7 Q: I see. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now you told us in your evidence 12 yesterday, I believe it was, about the importance of 13 debriefings from incidents so that you can learn from 14 them for the future, right? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And you expressed a regret that there 17 hadn't been a debriefing of this incident so that you 18 could have learned from it? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And you explained that it wouldn't be 21 appropriate to have a debriefing during the criminal 22 trial or as long as the criminal matter is still 23 outstanding, and I think we can all appreciate that, that 24 particular -- well, given the concerns about perturbing 25 witnesses and so on, that would be important, right?
2931 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: But then did you indicate that you 3 had similar concerns with respect to a possible civil 4 action? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And is that -- was that your personal 7 concern or did some supervisor tell you not to have a 8 debriefing, or how did that go, sir? 9 A: I don't recall if there was specific 10 direction or not, sir. I know the -- the atmosphere at 11 the time was still that we should not have a debrief, and 12 I don't recall if that was from ourselves or from our 13 supervisors. 14 Q: Now, I don't recall the exact date 15 but the Deane matter was appealed all the way up through 16 the Supreme Court of Canada. 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: And then it was concluded certainly 19 before the year 2000. Wasn't that correct, 20 approximately? 21 A: I think you're approximately correct. 22 I honestly don't recall the dates either. 23 Q: But the civil matter went -- was only 24 concluded in the year 2003, I believe. 25 A: The civil matter concluded at the
2941 start of this, I believe. 2 Q: Well, just before this -- 3 A: The start of the Inquiry. 4 Q: -- Inquiry was announced. 5 A: Or some time around -- 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do -- can you recall, during that 9 several year period, any discussions about whether or not 10 there should be a debriefing? 11 A: Well, I think the discussions were 12 that there wasn't -- there wasn't a debriefing because, 13 again, of proceedings that were ongoing. 14 Q: And who did you have those 15 discussions with? 16 A: Other team members. 17 Q: Other team members? 18 A: You know, there was often the 19 question, Are we ever going to have a debrief? Well, 20 when the -- when the litigation ends, then we'll have a 21 debrief. 22 Q: I see. And you can't assist us as to 23 whether that was your decision or a superior officer's 24 decision? 25 A: No, sir, I can't, I'm sorry.
2951 Q: Who was your immediate superior 2 during that time? 3 A: Over all those years, sir? 4 Q: It varied over the -- 5 A: It changed, yes. 6 Q: And say from 2000 to 2003? 7 A: 2000 to 2003. Well, sir, at some 8 point in time there the management of the Tactics and 9 Rescue Unit changed from a regional management to a 10 centralized management model. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: So my supervisor would have been in 13 Orillia at the time. 14 Q: I see. Okay. If you could please 15 turn to Tab 27 of the Commission brief? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: This is, I believe, if I have it 18 correct, Exhibit P-1356 to the proceedings, and it's a 19 transcript of a telephone call between you and two (2) 20 other officers on September 7th. 21 I just wish to direct your attention to 22 one (1) part of this. On the first page, three-quarters 23 (3/4's) of the way down, you're -- well, you're talking 24 about your book, and then you refer to your black binder 25 and you're instructing Officer Zupancic to please try and
2961 locate it for you, right? 2 A: Yes, that's correct. 3 Q: Now, you told us yesterday that that 4 black binder had all your contact numbers, your schedule 5 and other information, right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: What other information was in it? 8 A: At that time I think I had some 9 policy statements in it, that type of thing. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: Formats for setting out schmeacs 12 (phonetic), situation mission, operational planning 13 templates, that type of thing. 14 Q: I see. And what happened to that 15 black book after it was retrieved? 16 A: It was left -- I had left it at the 17 TOC site. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: So I did retrieve it. 20 Q: And you did retrieve it? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And where is it now? 23 A: I don't utilize it anymore, sir. 24 Q: Was that -- do you know if that was 25 turned in as part of the voluminous documents that we
2971 have in this proceeding? 2 A: No, sir, it wasn't. 3 Q: It was not? 4 A: No. 5 Q: I see. Why would that be? 6 A: Well, it wasn't my notebook, sir, it 7 wouldn't have anything written down about the occurrence 8 itself. 9 Q: I see. So you were -- when you were 10 asked for material to prepare for this proceeding or for 11 the civil proceeding for that matter -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- you -- you were told what kind of 14 material to provide, in general? 15 A: Yeah, I'm sure there was a descriptor 16 there, yes. 17 Q: Yes. And can you assist us as to the 18 descriptor that would have -- 19 A: No, I can't. 20 Q: -- precluded the black book? 21 A: I'm sorry. 22 Q: Evidently, in your opinion at least, 23 the description you were given as to what you should turn 24 in did not include the black book? 25 A: That's correct.
2981 Q: And can you assist as to how the 2 black book would have been outside the scope of whatever 3 description you had? 4 A: Well, sir, the -- the book had 5 nothing to do with the individual occurrence I was on, 6 this was a book I carried all the time. It was like -- 7 as I said it would be like a modern day blackberry, it 8 had my contact numbers in it, that kind of thing. It 9 didn't have anything related to this particular 10 occurrence. 11 Q: But it had policies that you thought 12 were important enough to carry around to operations, 13 evidently, for example? 14 A: Policies such as a little SIU card, 15 that type of thing. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: Those kinds of things. 18 Q: Thank you very much, Officer. Thank 19 you, Mr. Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Rosenthal. 22 Mr. Scullion...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2991 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you make 2 a current estimate, Mr. Scullion? 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I had made an offer, 4 but we're still inside so -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know 6 that. I understand that. 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: We'll -- we'll be 8 done today. I think my estimate's still accurate, 9 probably a little high. And I -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which was? 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It was 45 minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: And I mean I'll just 14 move through my topics and I think -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just take 16 your time, Mr. Scullion, if that's your estimate that's 17 not unreasonable. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think it's fairly 19 accurate. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Inspector. 23 A: Good afternoon, sir. 24 Q: My name's Kevin Scullion, I'm one (1) 25 of the counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena.
3001 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And coming up as I do after a number 3 of cross-examinations, it may be a little piece meal but 4 there's a couple of areas I want to ask you some more 5 question about. 6 One (1) -- one (1) thing that I found 7 interesting was your impression. It sounded like you 8 came back from vacation and sort of was parachuted into 9 this situation on September the 5th; is that fairly 10 accurate? 11 A: I -- I guess I came back to find the 12 situation ongoing, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And you met with Inspector 14 Carson and you were advised at that point in time that 15 the goal of Project Maple was the peaceful resolution and 16 for the people to leave the Park; is that fair? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. At no point in time I expect 19 were you told that there was an issue of colour of right 20 for the people to be in the Park itself? Were you ever 21 told that by Inspector Carson or anybody else that that 22 may be an issue? 23 A: At that time, sir, I don't think I 24 had in my mind or was advised that there was a disputed 25 issue about the Park itself.
3011 Q: Okay. You were never advised that 2 there was a dispute over land? 3 A: Not as far as the Park goes, no. 4 Q: Okay. Now I took interest when you 5 referred -- you were referred in your examination-in- 6 chief at Tab 7, you had a discussion with Brian Deevy. 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Do you have that before you? 9 A: I do. 10 Q: Which I believe, if my notes are 11 correct, is P-1339. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 13 right. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 16 Q: And I note from that conversation, 17 about halfway down, you're asked how long you think 18 you're going to be there. And your reference was: 19 "Uh, how long was Akwesasne?" 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And that's the first thing that came 22 to you mind. 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Do you recall why? 25 A: Well, it was a -- a similar event, in
3021 my mind. It was a -- a land issue, it involved First 2 Nations people. And we were on a similar mission to 3 standby to standby, in case we were needed. 4 Q: And it took an awfully long time to 5 resolve. 6 A: It did, we were there for pretty much 7 the summer of 1990. 8 Q: Okay. Were you aware, at that point 9 in time, of an occupation that had just come to an end at 10 Serpent Mounds Provincial Park? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: Okay. Have you ever become aware of 13 such an occupation? 14 A: I -- I've heard of it discussed. 15 Q: Through this Inquiry, or otherwise. 16 A: Through the Inquiry, yes. 17 Q: All right. No other discussions 18 within the OPP in relation to Serpent Mounds? 19 A: Not that I can recall at that time, 20 sir, no. 21 Q: All right. Do I infer from that that 22 TRU was not involved in any way, shape or form, to your 23 knowledge, with respect to the Serpent Mounds occupation? 24 A: No, they weren't. 25 Q: All right. And you were one (1) of
3031 three (3) commanders at the time? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you were in -- it would appear to 4 be in contact with other commanders and you presumably -- 5 A: On a regular -- 6 Q: -- would have been aware of it. 7 A: On a regular basis, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And I noted from your 9 discussion with Brian Deevy that when you go through it, 10 he goes on and on about a reconnaissance mission that 11 seemed fairly interesting in that it took about three (3) 12 hours. 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And much of that reconnaissance 15 involved members of the TRU team in daylight, maintaining 16 their position because there were dogs that were sniffing 17 around them, but didn't find them. 18 Do you recall that conversation with Mr. 19 Deevy? 20 A: Yes. I'm not sure it was daylight 21 though or not. 22 Q: Well if you turn to page 3 -- 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: -- the third comment down, Mr. Deevy 25 says:
3041 "And it was daylight." 2 A: Okay, yes, I see that. 3 Q: And your response: 4 "Oh geez." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Because reconnaissance is 7 a little more difficult in daylight. 8 A: Yes, sir, it is. 9 Q: Right. Especially for this invisible 10 deployment that you referred to earlier. 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Right. It's very difficult. And the 13 fact is, in this one, he's relating to you difficulties 14 that they ran into because they -- the subject noted that 15 there was something going on and came out there with his 16 dogs, correct? 17 A: He -- he thought there was something 18 going on. I don't know what was in his mind, sir, but he 19 came out with the dogs, yes. 20 Q: Fair enough. You don't know what the 21 subject -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- knew or thought, but it's related 24 to you that these dogs are out there for quite a while -- 25 A: Yes.
3051 Q: -- looking for something. 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Right. So one of the options for the 4 TRU team, when they're on this reconnaissance or 5 surveillance and they're detected, is to remain still and 6 wait for whoever detects them to move along. 7 A: In -- in this case they were 8 intelligence gathering, yes. 9 Q: Right. And in this case they 10 exercised the option of simply remaining still and 11 waiting for the person who may suspect that there's 12 something going on, to move along? 13 A: Yes -- 14 Q: Right? 15 A: -- that's correct. 16 Q: And that fits well into your 17 training, which seemed, from the evidence that I was 18 hearing from you, that it's important for the safety not 19 only of the officers, but of the subject, that they not 20 be seen or that the subject not know that they're being 21 watched, correct? 22 A: True. 23 Q: Right. And it sounded to me that 24 from your evidence was one of the potential risks is that 25 the subject may react in a way simply to the fact that
3061 there might be somebody out there watching them, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So it can spiral, simply because one 4 is watching and the other one's noticing somebody 5 watching them, correct? 6 A: Yes, yes. 7 Q: And that can be a dangerous 8 situation, right? 9 A: It can be. 10 Q: Okay. You also indicated in the TRU 11 training, that one of the parts of the training, and it 12 seemed to be stressed but you can advise me whether this 13 is the case, that working under exertion is important in 14 assessing whether or not somebody should be on this TRU 15 squad? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Right. And the -- I trust that the 18 reason why you put them through physical exertion is to 19 see how they react when they're tired and their judgment 20 may be affected. 21 A: To see if their judgment is affected, 22 yes. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: When they're tired, yes, sir. 25 Q: Both -- both in their individual
3071 actions and how they react as a team to a certain 2 stressful situation? 3 A: Exactly correct. 4 Q: All right. Now you were asked by Ms. 5 Vella about an incident in February of 1995. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And we've referred, or at least I've 8 referred in a number of cross-examinations to it as a 9 Daryl George incident. 10 Do you remember that being the suspect's 11 name in that case? 12 A: I believe so from looking at my 13 notes, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And your notes, if you want to 15 take a look at them, are at Tab 3. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Yes, sir, I have that. 20 Q: Okay. And we've heard from Miles 21 Bressette and Mark Wright that the incident, or at least 22 the TRU involvement in this incident originated with Mr. 23 Bressette who was Chief of the Kettle Point police at the 24 time, contacting Mark Wright and asking or seeking 25 assistance, and Mark Wright calling TRU.
3081 Is that consistent with your recollection 2 of this event? 3 A: No. Mark Wright wouldn't have been 4 the one to call out TRU, sir. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: He wouldn't have had that authority. 7 Q: You would have been called by the 8 Incident Commander? 9 A: Or -- yes. 10 Q: Okay. At page 2 of your notes, half 11 way down at the time 01:00? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 Q: I assume that is a twenty-four (24) 14 hour clock and it's 1:00 in the morning? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: Correct. Perhaps you can just read 17 that note for me. I think I can make out your writing, 18 but I'm sure you -- 19 A: I don't blame you if you can't, sir. 20 It says: 21 "Send Zup/Beau McCormick out with 22 Special Constable Miles Bressette to 23 view scene." 24 Q: Okay. So that was one of the first 25 things that TRU did which is set up some reconnaissance
3091 to assess the situation? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. The next thing you would 4 have done, presumably, was to set up an inner perimeter? 5 A: Yes, to set up containment. Yes, 6 sir. 7 Q: Okay. And -- and the purpose for 8 that would be safety? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right. And TRU would manage that 11 area, correct? 12 A: TRU is responsible for the inner 13 perimeter, yes, sir. 14 Q: Right. And it was set up because 15 there was talk of an AK-47 in the suspect's possession. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Your note at page 2 says access to -- 20 A: I'm sorry? 21 Q: -- AK-47. Your note above what you 22 just read. 23 A: Yes, sir, I'm sorry. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: I was looking for that was in my
3101 notes, and it's right there. 2 Q: All right. So one of the reasons why 3 you set up this inner perimeter and managed the inner 4 perimeter, is for safety reasons and to make sure that 5 nobody is in range of a possible weapon? 6 A: Yes. The principles of containment 7 are to isolate the area, contain the -- contain the area 8 and evacuate anybody who's in area of jeopardy. 9 Q: Right. And when TRU's called in, 10 that's the process that they follow? 11 A: You're correct, sir. 12 Q: Right. And this is almost a text 13 book example for TRU, but for daylight comes along and 14 people start to breach the inner perimeter. Do you 15 remember that with this incident? 16 A: Yes, sir. I'm not sure that it was 17 daylight that initiated that breaching of the perimeters. 18 Q: Okay -- 19 A: But -- 20 Q: So it could have come earlier than 21 that. We just have testimony that daylight was when the 22 perimeter was being breached? 23 Did you have a debriefing with respect to 24 this particular incident? 25 A: Yes, we did.
3111 Q: All right. And what was the finding 2 or the discussion about the resolution that occurred? Do 3 you recall? 4 A: This -- I recall, sir, that the 5 occurrence did not end the way we would want the 6 occurrence to end. It -- other than the fact that it 7 resolved itself peacefully, that's not what I'm referring 8 to. 9 What I'm referring to is that the officer 10 -- the First Nations officer went through the perimeter 11 without the knowledge or approval of the Command Post, 12 and drove into the driveway of the residence; went in 13 speaking to the suspect without our knowledge, which, in 14 our view, placed himself in jeopardy and again placed the 15 suspect in jeopardy. 16 And the reason I would say that is when we 17 are in our position of containment and observation the 18 suspect may make some kind of a movement towards the 19 officer which would then create a -- a belief in a TRU 20 team member's mind that the officer's in jeopardy and 21 his life may be in danger and he may now have to react to 22 that. 23 So he may have placed the suspect's life 24 in jeopardy by doing what he did. 25 Q: Right. So you had concerns about the
3121 way that it was resolved although the end result was 2 peaceful? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: In your notes if you check at page 4 5 at a time of 06:56 -- 6 A: 06:56. Yes, sir? 7 Q: Do you see that? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: Can you read that for me? 10 A: Yes. It's "IC" which is short for 11 Incident Commander. 12 "Okays deployment of diversionary 13 device." 14 Q: And then at 06:57? 15 A: "Device deployed. Sierra 1 and 2 16 advised no reaction observed." 17 Q: What was the device that was employed 18 by the Incident Commander? 19 A: It was a Flashbang diversionary 20 device, sir. It's a -- makes a loud sound and a bright 21 flash of light. 22 Q: Were you part of the decision to 23 implement that particular diversionary device? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: All right. And what was the response
3131 you expected to occur? 2 A: The purpose of deploying it, sir, 3 would be to again get this -- get this individual back on 4 the phone, get them to pick up a phone for -- to talk to 5 negotiators; that's what we would hope to accomplish by 6 deploying that device. 7 Q: All right. Didn't happen? 8 A: Didn't happen. 9 Q: All right. We've heard from Mark 10 Wright that he was concerned about certain instructions 11 being given by the Incident Commander who we understand 12 was Inspector Linton at the time. 13 A: It was Inspector Linton. 14 Q: It was. For members of TRU to arrest 15 those that were breaching the inner perimeter. Is that 16 consistent with your recollection of this event? 17 A: I don't recall that, sir. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I don't recall that -- that 20 instruction being given. 21 Q: What is your recollection of what 22 your instructions were when Mr. Bressette breached the 23 inner perimeter and effected the end of this particular 24 situation? 25 A: Our -- my instruction from the
3141 Incident Commander at that time, sir? 2 Q: And your instructions to your TRU 3 team at that time? 4 A: Well, they were in positions of 5 observations, sir. I didn't give them any further 6 instructions at that time. 7 Q: Just so that I'm clear we've heard 8 from Mr. Bressette and we've heard from Mr. Wright that 9 in fact those instructions had been given to TRU 10 personnel and they caused concern to Mr. Wright. 11 A: Which instructions are those, sir? 12 Q: To -- for TRU members to effect 13 arrests within the inner perimeter. 14 A: I have no recollection of that, sir. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: My recollection is that members 17 reported they were having difficulties with the perimeter 18 and we were looking to bolster the other perimeter with 19 more ERT members. 20 Q: Right. But do you -- is your 21 recollection in conflict with that of Mr. Wright and Mr. 22 Bressette or is it simply you don't have any recollection 23 of -- 24 A: I don't have any recollection of 25 that, sir.
3151 Q: So you don't dispute what they're 2 saying, you're simply saying, I don't recall that 3 particular detail? 4 A: Well, sir, I -- if -- if I try to put 5 myself back into that timeframe I think I'd be advising 6 it would be a difficult role for the TRU team officers to 7 leave their positions of concealment to make arrests and 8 still maintain containment. 9 Q: It doesn't make a lot of sense does 10 it? 11 A: It doesn't make a lot of sense. 12 Q: Right. It puts the TRU members in 13 jeopardy? 14 A: It puts the risk of losing 15 containment on -- on the table as well, sir. 16 Q: As well, but besides losing 17 containment it puts them within the inner perimeter 18 within an area that you're concerned about the safety of 19 anybody within that perimeter? 20 A: The TRU team members are already on 21 the inner perimeter, sir. 22 Q: Effecting arrests within the inner 23 perimeter puts them in jeopardy would you not agree? 24 A: Well, potentially, sir, but that is a 25 role of TRU. When they make arrests it's generally
3161 within the inner perimeter. 2 Q: So you wouldn't be concerned just so 3 I understand -- you wouldn't be concerned if the Incident 4 Commander was giving those particular orders to members 5 of the TRU team to effect arrests within the inner 6 perimeter of anybody that was breaching the perimeter at 7 that time? 8 A: If they were breaching the perimeter 9 the officers near the people doing it would likely be the 10 Sierra members. I -- the Alpha team may not be in a 11 position to make those arrests. 12 If Sierra members were to leave their 13 position of containment to make arrests you would 14 effectively lose containment. So I would be advising not 15 to do that, that I -- if -- if that were to happen I 16 would be advising we could hopefully get some ERT members 17 in to make those arrests. 18 Q: All right. So there's more to the 19 issue than simply making arrests? 20 A: There certainly is. 21 Q: All right. Fair enough. On 22 September 5th I understood from your evidence that you 23 were presented with a copy of the Project Maple 24 paperwork. 25 Do you remember giving that evidence?
3171 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And you were provided with a copy of 3 Project Maple; if can give that back to you it's P-424. 4 I'm not sure you have it in front of you but we can have 5 help here. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Thank you, sir. 10 Q: Do you have that before you? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Now, there's a tab and there should 13 be a tab on yours that refers to ERT and TRU? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And if you open it up, the first four 16 (4) pages of that deals with ERT and intelligence and 17 then you get to TRU Operational Plan. 18 Do you see that? 19 A: I'm getting there. Yes, sir, TRU 20 Operational Plan Ipperwash. 21 Q: Right. Across the top it says, "TRU 22 Operational Plan Ipperwash". 23 You were able to review that page and the 24 following page at that time, September 5th? 25 A: The following page is missing from
3181 this copy, sir. 2 Q: It doesn't say, "Administration and 3 Support" at the top of it? 4 A: No, sir, it has, "Response Plan for 5 Negotiations" on the next page. If I go back -- if I go 6 back a few pages I can find the -- it's -- it's this 7 file. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Back farther. 10 Q: So it may be misfiled but you've got 11 it in hand? 12 A: I've got it, yes. 13 Q: All right. And at the top it says, 14 "Administration and Support"? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And both of those relate 17 to TRU and then TRU equipment? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You had an opportunity to take a look 20 at these at that point in time, September the 5th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: When you arrived did any of these 23 points in your mind apply to the situation at that point 24 in time? 25 A: Which points are you talking about,
3191 sir? 2 Q: Let's walk through it. 3 "There's a situation to resolve through 4 negotiation a peaceful solution." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: That was -- Carson told you that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. The next is: 9 "Mission to be utilized as an needed -- 10 on an as needed basis." 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: That's what you were told? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. When it says: 15 "Execution main action plan Western 16 Region TRU to be activated if weapon 17 usage occurs." 18 A: Yes? 19 Q: What does that mean from a TRU 20 perspective? What does activation mean? 21 A: Called out in response to whatever 22 the situation is, sir. 23 Q: All right. So as opposed to standby, 24 that's when you're called out and it would occur with 25 weapon usage?
3201 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Immediate Action Plan is the 3 next line. It says: 4 "To extricate if need arises utilizing 5 one (1) element supported by cover 6 element." 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: What does that mean in TRU or police 9 language? 10 A: It -- 11 Q: What did you understand that to mean? 12 A: What do I understand it to mean, sir? 13 It means if there's a need to perform a rescue, to 14 perform -- the team is broken into two (2) elements as -- 15 as I believe I mentioned before. One (1) element would 16 attempt to make the rescue and the other would provide 17 cover for that. 18 Q: Okay. I don't see anything in the 19 two (2) pages we've referred to here from an observation 20 point of view? 21 A: No, it's not listed, sir. 22 Q: All right. Did you understand that 23 morning regardless of what's in these two (2) pieces of 24 paper that TRU might be called upon for the purposes of 25 observation?
3211 A: I -- I suppose I understood we could 2 have been called upon for anything within our mandate, 3 sir. 4 Q: Okay. Whether it's listed in these 5 two (2) pages -- 6 A: Whether it's listed here or not, yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, we talked a little bit earlier 12 about this invisible deployment -- 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: -- and how important that is in order 15 to make sure that the suspect or suspects don't react in 16 a way that escalates the situation? 17 A: That's one (1) of the benefits of it, 18 yes. 19 Q: Okay. You were asked a number of 20 questions by Mr. Falconer and a couple by Mr. Rosenthal 21 about these trucks that the ERT -- or sorry the TRU team 22 has. 23 A: Yes? 24 Q: I think somebody referred to them as 25 "gun trucks" but they're for transporting people for
3221 equipment, for guns, et cetera. 2 A: Yes sir, you're correct. 3 Q: All right. You're staying at the 4 Pinery? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: There's reference in certain logger 7 tapes that when you're called out by Inspector Linton -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- there's a mobilization of forces, 10 a call's made and the TRU team is in Northville and 11 they're on their way down to meet Ken Deane in 12 Ravenswood. Do you recall that -- 13 A: Yes, I do recall that. 14 Q: The Pinery, Northville, Ravenswood 15 and Forrest they're all on Highway 21, correct? 16 A: They are. Yes. 17 Q: Was the route from Pinery to Forrest 18 along Highway 21? 19 A: That night, sir? 20 Q: That night. 21 A: I have no idea which route the 22 members of the team took, sir. 23 Q: Okay. So there's no discussion of 24 the route that they should take if they're called out 25 with these trucks?
3231 A: There wasn't that night that I can 2 recall no. 3 Q: Okay. You realize that if they're 4 driving from the Pinery on Highway 21 they drive right 5 by -- 6 A: I realize that, sir. 7 Q: -- the Army Camp? 8 A: And it was an area that we did not 9 drive by. 10 Q: Right. And they drive right by 11 checkpoints that the ERT members are at? 12 A: If they went down Highway 21, yes. 13 Q: Right. It kind of defeats the 14 purpose of invisible deployment if you're seen by people 15 at the Army Camp and by ERT members with these trucks 16 rushing by, correct? 17 A: Well, invisible deployment, sir, does 18 not necessarily mean en route to the area of the 19 occurrence. If I was called out to a barricaded person 20 call in Owen Sound it would be practically impossible to 21 be invisibly deployed all the way from London. 22 Q: I appreciate that. But in the 23 circumstances did it make a lot of sense to drive right 24 by the Army Camp? 25 A: And I -- I don't know that they did,
3241 sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 3 know the route. Yes, Ms. Jones...? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I was 5 going to say, this Witness doesn't know the route and, in 6 any event, we already have Officer Zupanic's phone call 7 where he talks about the route he did take. So we 8 actually have evidence already about that before the 9 Commission. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 11 He doesn't know the route. He didn't know the route they 12 took. 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Right. And Zupancic 14 is coming up. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, 16 Zupancic. 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: And we'll ask that 18 question. I'm simply asking the Commander if there was a 19 plan -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said 21 "no". 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 24 Q: And my understanding is that there 25 wasn't a plan?
3251 A: There wasn't a specific direction 2 that night. There was previous direction not to be 3 driving by the Camp. 4 Q: There was previous direction to that 5 effect? 6 A: I recall there was. Yes. 7 Q: And when was that given? 8 A: It would have been when we arrived on 9 the 5th. 10 Q: All right. From Mr. -- or Inspector 11 Carson? 12 A: From myself. 13 Q: From you to your group -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- that's in Pinery? 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: All right. And, again, you talked 21 about a tactical error in employing this white van in 22 dropping off members of the TRU team halfway to where 23 they were supposed to occupy observations posts, correct? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And it's a tactical error because it
3261 then, and as it turns out, allowed those that you were 2 supposed to be observing to know that they were in -- 3 somewhere in the bush? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And is it true -- 6 A: Or at least attract attention to 7 something coming down the road. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Something was going on and, as it 11 turns out, people came out to take a look? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Right. So as opposed to just having 14 people in the parking lot which may have been what you're 15 supposed to be observing, you now have people that have 16 come out on the road to see what else might be going on, 17 correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the potential and the problem 20 that you're referring to with this action/reaction is 21 that there's potential for the group that's being 22 observed to then react simply to the presence of the TRU 23 team observing them? 24 A: Yes, that's a potential, sir. 25 Q: Okay. Was that not also a potential
3271 by moving the ERT and the CMU squad down the road? 2 A: Well, the reaction we were hoping to 3 have, sir, is by moving them down they would back up, at 4 least into the parking lot, and away from the Sierra team 5 members. 6 Q: Right. But isn't there also a 7 potential that they're going to react to this massive 8 deployment of the CMU force down the road, however far 9 they go? 10 A: I did not anticipate that they would 11 react by coming out to meet the CMU, sir. I anticipated 12 they would go back. 13 Q: Right. At the time did you turn your 14 mind to the potential that the deployment of the CMU 15 halfway down the road could cause more harm than simply a 16 distraction? 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: One part of your evidence that I 19 found interesting but may not be correct is you referred 20 to the snipers in an observation situation as, and I'll - 21 - I'll just quote what you said. 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: "As you can imagine looking through 24 the scope of a rifle your field of 25 vision is narrowed considerably so the
3281 observer is there to have a wider field 2 of view and -- and to provide 3 protection for the sniper himself." 4 That's page 29 from yesterday's 5 examination. 6 A: That sounds pretty accurate to what I 7 said, sir, yes. 8 Q: Okay. Do I take it then that at 9 least one if not more of the TRU members that are then in 10 the bush observing the parking lot, are watching through 11 the scope of their rifle? 12 A: That's not what I referencing in 13 that, sir. We were talking in generalities, you know, 14 when a Sierra team goes out and they're deployed as a 15 sniper unit and the sniper takes a sniper rifle, he is 16 then observing through, in most likelihood, observing 17 through his rifle scope. 18 In this case the sniper rifles didn't go 19 out. 20 Q: Okay. So it's a long way to get to 21 the answer which I presume is they weren't sent out there 22 to use their rifle scopes for observation purposes? 23 A: They were sent out to observe, sir. 24 They have made utilize their optics to enhance their 25 ability to do that.
3291 Q: And what did they have available to 2 enhance their optics? 3 A: Well, they would have had the scopes 4 on their rifle. I'm not -- 5 Q: Okay, so -- 6 A: -- I'm not certain if they would have 7 had binoculars with them. They had night vision 8 capability. The night vision capability was on -- for 9 the Sierras was on the weapons. 10 Q: So it's possible that the TRU members 11 that are in the bush observing whatever it is they're 12 able to observe from where they are, could be using the 13 scopes on their rifles -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- for that purpose. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And you don't know 18 because you haven't had a debriefing, whether or not that 19 was the case? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: If I can turn to Officer Zupancic. 22 A: I'm sorry? 23 Q: Officer Zupancic -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that
3301 correctly. 2 A: You are. 3 Q: All right. He's in charge in the van 4 of recording communications. 5 A: It was his responsibility to set that 6 up, yes. 7 Q: Right. And his responsibility is to 8 simply push the record and the play button on this 9 particular recorder? 10 A: You -- you would normally start the 11 recorder, push the play and record button and you would 12 announce on the radio for the purpose of identifying the 13 tape where you are, what the date and time is and what 14 the occurrence are on that. 15 Q: Right. And is the tape in front of 16 you when you're pushing these buttons? Are you able to 17 see the tape moving? 18 A: It's -- the tape at that time if I 19 can describe it, is like a video tape for a VCR. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And would be capable of recording for 22 I believe it was a twenty-four (24) hour period, so the 23 tape moves very, very slowly. But, yes, if you look 24 carefully you could see it. 25 Q: Okay. You said that there were two
3311 (2) buttons on the recording device, play and record -- 2 A: Well there was more buttons than 3 that. But those -- 4 Q: I -- 5 A: -- are the two (2) you had to push. 6 Q: I was about to ask if there was a 7 stop button, a fast forward or rewind -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- a normal tape recorder? 10 A: Well it's more than a normal tape 11 recorder, sir. There's also buttons for the channels, et 12 cetera, that it records. 13 Q: Normal -- normal functions for a tape 14 recorder plus particular functions that you've just 15 listed. 16 A: That's fair, sir. 17 Q: All right. So it would have been 18 possible for Officer Zupancic to press stop with that 19 recorder and prevent the tape from proceeding further 20 with the record, right? 21 A: Could you read the last part of your 22 question, sir. I'm not sure I quite follow that. 23 Q: It would have been possible if it was 24 recording or playing for him to press stop? 25 A: Yes.
3321 Q: All right. And it would have been 2 possible for him to rewind the tape? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you ever ask him if he did that? 5 A: No, I didn't, sir. 6 Q: And if he rewound it, to state the 7 obvious, if he rewound it and pressed record again, it 8 would erase whatever's on that particular tape, right? 9 A: I -- I suppose if he did that I -- I 10 think that's the function it would record over what he 11 had previously recorded. 12 Q: Right. Your knowledge of -- 13 A: Thereby erasing what was there 14 before. 15 Q: It would have erased what was there 16 before, correct? 17 A: I suppose if you did that, yes. I 18 think that's the way it would work. 19 Q: All right. And only because I need 20 to touch this subject. You testified that you didn't 21 complete your notes until after, the majority of your 22 notes, until after your meeting with this Norm Peel, 23 correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Were you aware that Norman Peel had
3331 previously represented members of the Kettle and Stony 2 Point First Nation? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: You weren't aware that he had I think 5 successfully defended them in terms of fishing offences? 6 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 7 Q: All right. You then completed your 8 notes at some point following that meeting and your 9 incident report, correct? 10 A: Not on the same day. 11 Q: No, but -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- sometime -- 14 A: Sometime later. 15 Q: -- following? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: In your testimony-in-chief you said 18 you did that in terms of the delay because it was a 19 stressful, complex situation, that you should wait some 20 timeframe to make sure your notes to get your head 21 straightened around and let yourself think things out? 22 A: I said that was the common thought at 23 the time, yes. 24 Q: Right. But then you followed it up 25 in your evidence to Ms. Vella by saying that:
3341 "In retrospect I don't think that 2 worked well for me." 3 And your explanation for that was that the 4 notes are not a complete rendition of things that 5 occurred that night. They're not a complete rendition of 6 my memory of things that happened that night. 7 Do you remember testifying about that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Why are these notes not a complete 10 rendition of what you experienced that evening? 11 A: Well, my experience at that time, 12 sir, my notes were made to refresh my memory. There were 13 some things that were not -- are not in need of being 14 refreshed, I recall them. Certainly obviously not 15 everything. 16 Subsequent -- my subsequent experience 17 through the trial I came to the conclusion that was 18 insufficient. 19 Q: Okay. Did you recall any further 20 details following the preparation of these notes before 21 you got to trial? Any other details that should have 22 been in these notes that you'd omitted at the time? 23 A: Well, I had a memory of other details 24 that were not in the notes, sir. 25 Q: All right.
3351 A: And I think we went through that at - 2 - at trial. 3 Q: Well, -- 4 A: -- but -- but -- 5 Q: I appreciate that a lot of things 6 happen at trial. My only question is, when you recalled 7 other or more details about this event and whether it 8 occurred before the trial or in preparation before the 9 trial occurred? 10 A: I'm sorry, sir, what's the question? 11 Q: Did you recall further details about 12 this night in question before your preparation and 13 testimony at the trials that you're referring to? 14 A: No, I don't think I recalled further 15 details, sir. 16 Q: All right. And if you had there 17 would have been an obligation to put those details into 18 your notes? 19 A: Well, I'd have to make notes on the 20 date that I remembered that and reference it back, sir. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: I wouldn't be able to go back and 23 slip them in so to speak to the notes that I had made at 24 the time. 25 Q: All right. That's not something that
3361 you would do? 2 A: No, sir. 3 Q: If -- and I'm just seeing what's 4 possible and what's not possible with the police 5 officer's notes. 6 You're saying that it's an absolute 7 preclusion to adding anything to your notes after they're 8 down on paper? 9 A: To go back and write in if I could in 10 between the lines of ever -- that shouldn't be done, no, 11 sir. 12 Q: All right. But is it a possibility 13 and you just put your initials and the date beside any 14 additions -- 15 A: No, sir, I -- 16 Q: -- an absolute conclusion? 17 A: -- I think the proper technique if -- 18 if you were to do that would be to write your notes in 19 reference on the date you recalled that; reference it on 20 that date and say in reference to this occurrence I 21 recall the following. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: If you were going to do that. 24 Q: Okay. Those are all my questions. 25 Thank you.
3371 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Scullion? 3 Ms. Johnson...? 4 What is your current estimate, Ms. 5 Johnson? 6 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'm sorry? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do 8 you estimate you might be? 9 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'm not sure how 10 long My Friend estimated for me yesterday but I 11 anticipate being five (5) to ten (10) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 16 Q: Good afternoon. 17 A: Good afternoon. 18 Q: My name is Colleen Johnson, I'm here 19 today representing the Kettle and Stony Point First 20 Nation. 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: And I'm acting as agent for the 23 Chiefs of Ontario. 24 I just have one (1) area that I'd like to 25 cover with you, sir.
3381 And with regards to your notes at Tab 22 2 now the page number at the top that I'm looking at, it's 3 towards the back of Tab 22 and it says 580 at the very 4 top? 5 A: Yes, ma'am, I'm there. 6 Q: Now, those notes are fairly full of 7 serious activity beginning at the top with you 8 indicating: 9 "I clearly hear numerous rounds fired." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And "radio CMU call. Deane asks for 12 an ambulance. " 13 All the way down to the bottom and: 14 "I stay to assist possible 15 evacuation..." 16 "Evac" it says and I'm assuming that's 17 "evacuation"? 18 A: You're correct. 19 Q: Okay. And then it says: 20 "Transport Lacroix to CP"? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And tell us again how long a ride 23 that is? 24 A: It's approximately fifteen (15) 25 minutes.
3391 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what kind 2 of conversation occurred between you and Wade Lacroix on 3 that ride? 4 A: No, I can't, ma'am. 5 Q: On April 5th we heard testimony from 6 Vince George and for My Friends' assistance, at his 7 transcript at page 227, line 23, he referred to hearing 8 conversation or discussion or being told in regards to 9 the beating of Bernard George and the beating of Bernard 10 George are Vince George's words. 11 And then on page 228 at line 7 he 12 indicates, these are his words again: 13 "It was relayed to me that he..." 14 And "he" refers to Wade Lacroix. 15 "... was the first individual -- was 16 the individual that first hit Bernard." 17 Can you tell us if you had any 18 conversation with Wade Lacroix with regards to his 19 involvement of the beating of Bernard George that 20 evening? 21 A: Not that I recall, ma'am. 22 Q: I'm sorry? 23 A: Not that I recall. 24 Q: Can you tell me if you had any 25 subsequent conversations with Wade Lacroix with regards
3401 to the beating of Bernard George? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Can you tell me if you had any 4 conversations with any of Wade Lacroix's team with 5 regards to what happened to Bernard George that evening? 6 A: No, ma'am, I didn't. 7 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Those are my 8 questions. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 Thank you very much. 11 Mr. Alexander, you still have some time. 12 With all the questions that have been asked, how long 13 have you got? 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I will be very 15 brief, Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long? 17 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I would say five 18 (5) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: To protect myself 21 I'll say five (5) to ten (10). 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Inspector Skinner. 25 A: Good afternoon.
3411 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 2 one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George 3 and several members of the George Family, including Sam 4 George who, unfortunately, couldn't be here for the 5 remainder of the day as he had, unfortunately, a previous 6 commitment out of town. 7 And you'll be happy to know that almost 8 all of my areas have been covered by My Friends and I 9 have two (2) areas that I want to briefly go over with 10 you and just to get some further information on. And 11 both of them have to do with September 6th. 12 So if I can ask you to turn to your notes 13 at Tab 22 which has been previously marked as Exhibit P- 14 1341? 15 A: Yes. sir. 16 Q: And if I look at your notes it looks 17 like they start at 06:00 and then it goes up to -- 18 there's a few entries on the bottom of the first page 19 which has a 576 in the top right corner. For My Friends' 20 reference and the record this is Inquiry Document Number 21 5000057. 22 And then on the second page -- sorry, at 23 the bottom of the first page there's an entry at 10:15? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then on the next page there's an
3421 entry at 18:30? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So I'm focussing on that gap in time 4 during there. So I just want to find out what you were 5 doing at that point? 6 Were you, at that point, in the Command 7 Post for most of the -- 8 A: I was, sir. 9 Q: So you weren't taking notes because 10 that was just generally whatever was going on in the 11 Command Post? 12 A: At that point, sir, there was nothing 13 noteworthy that I can recall. 14 Q: But you were in the Command Post and 15 you would be attending briefing meetings -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- as requested by Inspector Carson? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. I'd ask you to turn to the 20 black binder which is there on the corner and I'm going 21 to ask you to look at Exhibit P-426 which is Inquiry 22 Document Number 1002419. And I'm going to ask you to 23 turn to page 62 which I do not believe is included in 24 your binder. 25 A: Yes, sir.
3431 Q: And if you notice the entry is 14:27 2 hours and there's a mention of briefing: "Mark Wright 3 meeting." 4 Do you recall if you attended this 5 briefing? Feel free to look at it. The briefing -- the 6 minutes -- the scribe notes for this briefing goes from 7 this page to the top of the next page. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: It doesn't really refresh my memory 12 too much, sir. But it's quite likely I was at the 13 briefing. 14 Q: Okay. The phrase -- I just want to 15 take you to one (1) specific phrase in this. And that's 16 at the bottom of page 62. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: "Concerns raised that the longer it 19 goes more may be around." 20 Do you have rec -- 21 A: Concerns raised -- 22 Q: At the very bottom of page 62, it 23 goes over to page 63. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: "Concerns raised that the longer it
3441 goes, more may be around." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you have any recollection of that 4 phrase being said? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Any recollection that of maybe not 7 necessarily in this meeting but words to that affect, 8 while you were there? 9 A: No. I'm sorry, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. And then if I look at your 11 notes again which is back to Exhibit -- Tab 22, Exhibit 12 P-1341, Document Number 5000057 and I'm not looking at 13 the second page at 577. 14 And if I look at the top of the page, it's 15 19:30, "10-8 to Pinery" so I'm assuming at that point you 16 were returning to Pinery, correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you would have been off duty. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you weren't expecting anything to 21 happen that night. 22 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 23 Q: And there was nothing noteworthy at 24 that point? 25 A: Correct.
3451 Q: And then at Tab 17. 2 A: Tab 17? 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: Which is Exhibit P-1320, Inquiry 6 Document Number 1000008. And then there's the phone call 7 from Korosec to yourself at what's marked as 20:13 hours 8 which we understand there's a seven (7) minute addition 9 occurred at 20:20. 10 Correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it's as a result of -- this call 13 says is a request to you to bring the entire team down to 14 Forest? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the result was that TRU was 17 mobilized at this point? 18 A: I believe so. I think I was also 19 paged I think too, yes. 20 Q: Thank you, Inspector Skinner, those 21 are my questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 23 Mr. Alexander. 24 Ms. Jones...? 25
3461 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: May I ask 4 Ms. Jones what your reasonable estimate is? 5 MS. KAREN JONES: My reasonable estimate 6 is twenty (20) to thirty (30) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 12 Q: Inspector Skinner, what I would like 13 to do is hopefully so it's a little less jumpy, move 14 through some of the events chronologically and so I 15 wanted to start back in August of 1995 when you were on 16 your annual leave of absence. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: And we know from other evidence in 19 your evidence that during that period of time Officer 20 Deane would have in essence stepped into your shoes. 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And during that period of time there 23 would have been a number of functions that he was 24 responsible for. 25 A: Certainly.
3471 Q: And we also know from other evidence 2 and from your evidence that you knew during that period 3 of time for example, that he attended the meeting at 4 London Headquarters regarding some of the planning for 5 what was to become Project Maple. 6 A: I would have known that when I 7 returned from my holidays, yes. 8 Q: That's right. And can you help us 9 with -- in terms of planning or pre-planning? 10 Are you the only person on the TRU team 11 that can do planning or pre-planning? 12 A: No, no, Ma'am. All the members of 13 the team are generally involved in planning excer -- 14 planning operations as they come about. 15 Q: Okay. And we know for example from 16 the evidence of Stan Korosec that on August 29th he met 17 with Ken Deane in Forest and they went to Ipperwash Park 18 together. And they did a number of things. 19 They looked at access points, they looked 20 at a possible TOC site, they looked at checkpoint 21 locations, thought about a number of officers, looked at 22 observation sites, thought about the number of type and 23 vehicles that might be required. 24 And is that kind of activity consistent 25 with pre-planning?
3481 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And are -- were you satisfied when 3 you got back from your annual leave in September of 1995, 4 that sufficient pre-planning had been done for this? 5 A: I don't have a specific recollection 6 of that, ma'am. 7 Q: Of? 8 A: Of having a satisfaction or a memory 9 of that even, sorry. 10 Q: Okay. Can -- can I take it if you 11 had concerns that something should have been done that 12 hadn't been done, you would have addressed it at the 13 time? 14 A: Yes, ma'am, I would have. 15 Q: And do you recall whether or not you 16 addressed anything at the time in terms of pre-planning? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You don't recall or you didn't take 19 any steps to address any -- 20 A: I didn't take any steps. 21 Q: Okay. And similarly in terms of the 22 planning that was done by TRU for Project Maple and you 23 have a copy of the Project Maple document in front of 24 you. 25 I take it that you didn't have any
3491 concerns about the planning that had been done with 2 respect to that for TRU? 3 A: No. It was pretty open ended because 4 we didn't know exactly what we were going to be used for. 5 Q: Sure. And that leads me into another 6 area. You were asked a number of questions regarding -- 7 once you get called out to Ipperwash on standby, would 8 there or could there or should there have been other 9 things that you would have -- that you would have done 10 with respect to planning or pre-planning? 11 And a couple of options or possibilities 12 were put to you. And I wanted to ask you a little bit 13 further about them but first I wanted to know, when you 14 are standing by in a situation, what is your role and 15 what is TRU's role? 16 A: If in this case we were standing by 17 we would have prepared vehicles to respond if we were 18 called. 19 Like in an IAP role, Immediate Action, so 20 one of the vans would have been prepared with equipment, 21 members would have their equipment laid out ready to go. 22 And they would be in a position where they could respond 23 in a fairly rapid fashion if called for. 24 Q: And while you and the TRU team are 25 standing by ready to respond quickly if need be, would it
3501 be usual for you to be out somewhere looking at terrain 2 or being out somewhere doing some kind of a 3 reconnaissance? 4 A: It wouldn't be normal. If -- if it 5 had been done before or if there was a concern that we 6 may have to be -- or respond fairly quickly to something, 7 we wouldn't be out doing that. 8 Q: Okay. You were also asked some 9 questions about whether or not you or other members of 10 TRU prior to the night of September the 6th, 1995, ought 11 to have spent more time in terms of looking at terrain or 12 evaluating terrain. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And in terms of that, is TRU trained 15 to work in terrain that -- which it is not intimately 16 familiar? 17 A: It's often part of the training to 18 put people into unfamiliar areas, yes. 19 Q: And I take it in fact that would be 20 the norm and not the exception when you're actually 21 deployed that you would be in an area that you're not 22 intimately familiar with? 23 A: Absolutely. Given the geographic 24 area we have to cover it's nigh on to impossible to be 25 familiar with the entire area.
3511 Q: And in terms of the area around 2 Ipperwash Park, I take it that's the kind of situation 3 where it would be impossible to be familiar intimately 4 with the terrain around it. It's a large area. 5 A: Yes. It is a large area. 6 Q: And would there be any benefit in 7 your view to spending time doing that when you don't know 8 what you're going to be responding to? 9 A: When I don't know what I'm going to 10 be called for and specifically where in that large 11 geographical area, it makes it fairly -- it would be 12 extremely time consuming and take them away from their 13 standby role. 14 Q: Okay. Another question you were 15 asked in terms of pre-planning was whether or not you had 16 in your mind to put a hard line into the Park -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- for negotiations. And would it be 19 usual or your norm to try to put a hard line in an area 20 where there are already telephones? 21 A: No it would not be normal. 22 Q: And in any event did you ever have 23 authority to go into the Park? 24 A: Well exactly the opposite. In fact 25 we were directed not to go into the Park.
3521 Q: Okay. I wanted to ask you a little 2 bit to flush out some of the questions in particular that 3 you've been asked about in the last couple of days. 4 You've been asked to speculate about a 5 number of matters. You've been asked, for example, about 6 a statement that was put to you that Mark Wright said 7 about "amassing a fucking army". 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And whether or not that's an 10 aggressive statement or not. Can you help us with, in 11 your view, if it's helpful to know the context in which 12 something is said? 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Nobody said that 14 Mark Wright said "amassing a fucking army". She should 15 get the evidence accurate. It was Korosec who said that 16 and Mark Wright's statements accurately were put to this 17 Witness. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 19 -- did you have that accurately? Mr. Rosenthal -- 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Maybe -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is 22 calling you on the accuracy of your recollection of 23 evidence. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Perhaps what I can do, 25 Mr. Commissioner, is just put this question to the
3531 Inspector. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: In your view, is it helpful to know 5 the context of circumstances, when you're asked to 6 evaluate a comment or someone's actions? 7 A: It would certainly be helpful, yes. 8 Q: And as part of that is that, for 9 example, if you were asked to consider the intent or to 10 describe a comment, would it be of assistance to you to 11 know whether or not any action was taken that was 12 consistent with that comment? 13 A: Certainly. 14 Q: In terms of your evaluation of it? 15 A: Certainly. It would help to know if 16 it was an off the cuff comment or if that was the actual 17 intent of the individual. 18 Q: Sure. And in the same line as that, 19 you were asked a number of questions about a telephone 20 call between Brian Deevy and Wade Lacroix, and I think 21 that you indicated to us you didn't know about that call? 22 A: I did not. 23 Q: And I take it from your comments that 24 you, for example, weren't one (1) of the people who was 25 with Wade Lacroix when he refers to Tex and the boys?
3541 A: Correct. 2 Q: And is this -- and so you don't have 3 any knowledge of the circumstances of the call? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: And is it fair to say before you're 6 asked to pass judgment on someone else's conduct, you 7 would like to know all the information around it and the 8 circumstances? 9 A: That's fair to say. 10 Q: Okay. The third example of that, 11 Inspector, that's happened today is questions you were 12 asked about a statement that was given by Inspector 13 Goodall, and about a demonstration that was given. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Is it fair to say that you had no 16 knowledge or responsibility for organizing the 17 demonstration on any of the days set out in that memo? 18 A: Other than the assistance I gave to 19 Inspector Goodall. 20 Q: And is it fair to say you had no 21 knowledge or responsibility for who was informed and 22 when, about the demonstrations? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And is it fair to say you had no 25 knowledge or responsibility of what information was used
3551 or by who? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And, Inspector, I'm sorry to use your 8 time like this, but there was one (1) housekeeping matter 9 also that I wanted to attend to. 10 It was suggested to you today and I 11 believe that you agreed with it, that the information 12 that you got about the potential for certain weapons on 13 the evening of September the 6th, came from Stan Korosec. 14 And I wondered if you would be good enough 15 to turn to your binder, Tab 17. And this is Exhibit 16 1320. It's a transcript of a call between Inspector 17 Skinner and Mr. Korosec. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And does it help you in reviewing 20 that to determine whether or not the information that you 21 got about any potential weapons came from Mr. Korosec? 22 A: No, the information I got for weapons 23 came from Inspector Linton. If I stated that 24 incorrectly, I apologize. 25 Q: No, no, it's fine.
3561 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: In terms of that information that you 4 got about guns and you've been asked a number of 5 questions, so I don't want to spend a lot of time with 6 it. 7 Is it fair to say that you and other 8 members of TRU when you're out on a call, always have in 9 mind the possibility of guns and violence? 10 A: That's the nature of the work that is 11 called upon by the TRU team to do. 12 Q: That's right. And can you tell me if 13 you receive information about the possibility or the 14 probability of there being guns in a situation whether 15 you can just choose to ignore it because -- 16 A: Well -- 17 Q: -- it hasn't been investigated? 18 A: It would be foolhardy on my part to 19 ignore it. I'd be putting potentially members of the 20 team at jeopardy and I'd be putting potentially members 21 of the community in jeopardy if I ignored that 22 information. 23 Q: Okay. I then want to move to the 24 night of September the 6th and I believe that you've told 25 us that when you were at the Command Post there were
3571 discussions about what might happen down in terms of 2 concerns about the sandy parking lot -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- and when you had left the Command 5 Post the view was that the CMU might be deployed to go 6 down the road and clear the sandy parking lot? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Okay. And then when you get to the 9 TOC there is a view that -- that the Sierra teams ought 10 to be sent out to see if there can be eyes and ears? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And I think you've told us too that 13 you weren't involved in any briefings with Staff Sergeant 14 Lacroix at the time or the -- the instructions or 15 directions that he was given? 16 A: I -- I wasn't involved in the 17 briefing for the ERT members. 18 Q: Okay. And at the time that Sierra 19 goes out to see if they can get an eye at the end of the 20 road I take it that there are two (2) things going on, 21 one (1) is the hope that Sierra might be able to see 22 what's going on at the end of the road? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the other is that the Crowd 25 Management Unit is there to use if that's not possible?
3581 A: Correct. 2 Q: And that depending on what happens 3 there may need to be a change in tactics? 4 A: At any tactical occurrence they're 5 not a static event they're dynamic so a change is 6 possible if not likely. So you're always think -- trying 7 to think ahead to what could happen and how you could 8 react to it. 9 Q: Okay. You were -- just -- just 10 before I go through a little bit about that you were 11 asked some questions about concerns for safety of the 12 cottagers at East Parkway. 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: And I think that you've told us 15 before you went out to the TOC there was information 16 about the occupiers being out on the road with baseball 17 bats? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I think you've told us that as 20 Sierra 1 and Sierra 2 were going down the road trying to 21 get into position they were unable to do that because 22 there were occupiers out hunting for them? 23 A: Yes, there were. 24 Q: And that would have been on both the 25 north and the south side of the road? Sierra 1 was on
3591 one side of the road and Sierra 2 was on the other? 2 A: Yes, I'm not sure exactly the 3 position of the people who were out looking for them -- 4 Q: Right. 5 A: -- but... 6 Q: And what was -- what effect of any 7 did that have on your concern for the cottagers, that the 8 occupiers weren't just out on the road with baseball bats 9 but were out along the road hunting for -- what you 10 understood to be hunting for the Sierra teams? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 12 Scullion? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Simply terminology. 14 He keeps using "looking for" and Ms. Jones keeps 15 referring to it as "hunting for" people. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did one of 17 the witnesses use the word, "hunting"? 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He keeps using the 19 word, "looking" each time she indicates that and I -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes I know, 21 but did he use that word? "Looking" would be a -- 22 MS. KAREN JONES: No, no, Mr. 23 Commissioner -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- a more -- 25 MS. KAREN JONES: -- sorry about that.
3601 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 2 appropriate word. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Okay. So there are occupiers who are 6 out looking -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 8 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. JONES: 11 Q: -- for the Sierra teams? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Going beyond the corner of East 14 Parkway -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- and Army Camp Road and actually 17 out looking for them -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- so far as you understand? And 20 again in terms of your concern for the cottagers given 21 the fact that there are people out in that area around 22 the cottages how did you view that development? 23 A: The fact that the occupiers had come 24 out of the Park into the parking lot and even were moving 25 beyond that, that's one (1) of the concerns we had for
3611 the cottagers, that they were now potentially in 2 jeopardy. 3 Q: Okay. And given that concern and 4 given those circumstances in your view would it have been 5 prudent, for example, simply to withdraw the Sierra 1 and 6 Sierra 2 teams and maybe sometime later try again in the 7 hopes that they might get somewhere? 8 A: Well, no, if we had done that we 9 would have absolutely no observation of what was 10 occurring down the roadway. The ERT members had gone 11 back, if we brought Sierra back we'd have nothing down 12 there, nothing by way of informing us of potentially 13 something happening to the cottagers or other events. 14 Q: And similarly, in your view, given 15 that concern for the cottagers, would it have been 16 prudent not to try and establish or clear that area, 17 including the area of the sandy parking lot? 18 A: That was -- the goal was to clear 19 that area out for the security -- the security of that 20 area, yes. 21 Q: Sure. Which I take it would have 22 been, at least in part, why the CMU was deployed? 23 A: Yes, ma'am. 24 Q: Yeah. 25
3621 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You were asked a couple of questions 4 about equipment that the TRU members had and particularly 5 whether or not they had a bullhorn, and I think you said 6 that they had a couple. 7 And can you help us out? Would the 8 bullhorns be equipment that, for example, would be 9 available in equipment trucks, or would someone on Sierra 10 1 or Sierra 2 carry a bullhorn with them as they're going 11 into position? 12 A: No, they -- they wouldn't carry a 13 bullhorn out to ground with them, if the bullhorn was 14 required -- often the members will deploy utilizing one 15 (1) of our plain vans partway into a scene with some 16 equipment in it, and they would have to come back to 17 retrieve the bullhorn if they were going to use it. It 18 would be kind of a cumbersome thing to -- 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: -- take along with you. 21 Q: And in terms of how the CMU was 22 deployed on the night of September the 6th, I take it 23 that Inspector Carson, as you knew, was an experienced 24 incident commander? 25 A: I knew him to be an experienced
3631 incident commander, yes. 2 Q: And in order to do that he would have 3 to be familiar with CMU, its operations, its functions, 4 and deploying it? 5 A: I -- I don't know that he was a CMU 6 commander or how familiar -- 7 Q: Oh, I'm -- 8 A: -- he was with CMU practices at the 9 time. 10 Q: Okay. Sorry, I didn't mean he 11 himself was a CMU commander, what I meant as an incident 12 commander deploying a specialty unit -- 13 A: He'd be -- 14 Q: -- he would have to be familiar with 15 the usage of that unit and what it could do? 16 A: He -- he'd be familiar with the role 17 and function of each of the units under his command, yes. 18 Q: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 20 Scullion...? Just a minute. 21 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He's now guessing at 23 what Inspector Carson is familiar with, his -- I mean 24 it's -- it's six (6) of one (1), half dozen the other. 25 We have objections to Mr. Falconer asking this type of
3641 questions and then in re-examination we have the same 2 kind of questions from a different angle. 3 It just seems to me that he's being asked 4 to assist Inspector Carson's credibility and his 5 approach. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With what 7 Carson may or may not know? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: And it's very 9 difficult for somebody who we've heard a number of times 10 from a number of counsel isn't qualified to do exactly 11 what he's now being asked to do. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, I'm 13 not sure how helpful his view on this is. 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, okay. If it -- if 15 it's of any assistance, we have P-1340 which is the 16 Emergency Responses Manual, and it describes the role of 17 the Incident Commander -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and what an Incident 20 Commander must do, and Inspector Skinner has already said 21 that that is accurate. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: And that an Incident 24 Commander would be required to have those abilities and 25 fulfill those functions.
3651 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Did you have any concerns, on the 6 night of September the 6th, about the appropriateness of 7 a decision made by the Incident Commander to deploy the 8 CMU? 9 A: No, ma'am. 10 Q: Okay. And just to be clear, because 11 it's been suggested on a number of occasions today that 12 you're the one giving commands or orders to the CMU, the 13 Incident Commander would have been responsible for 14 deploying and directing the CMU? 15 A: Yes, he would. 16 Q: And you may relay some orders. 17 You're not the person making those decisions? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And so we understand a little bit 20 more too, you've been asked a bit about discretion, and 21 can you help us out in the chain of command in an 22 incident? 23 You've told us the Incident Commander is 24 overall responsible for the direction and that element 25 leaders then have a certain role. You -- you've
3661 described your role as the TRU leader and I take it that 2 the person in charge of the CMU would have some 3 responsibilities? 4 A: Yes, he would. 5 Q: And then -- and would be giving 6 direction to people below? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And in the midst and -- and even with 9 that sort of box of direction, if I can take it, that 10 sets out what people are to do, individual officers still 11 have discretion? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that's because they may have to 14 respond to situations? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: You were asked a question by Mr. 17 Falconer and he referred you, again, to P-1340 which is 18 the manual that I was just speaking to. 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And he took you specifically to the - 24 - to page 27 of that document, and he took you to point - 25 - bullet point 13.
3671 A: Yes. 2 Q: To confirm with you that, as the TRU 3 leader, you would have responsibility for controlling the 4 inner perimeter. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you tell us whether or not, 7 on September the 6th, there was ever an inner perimeter-- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- at Ipperwash? 10 A: No, ma'am. There was never any, what 11 would normally be thought of as an inner/outer perimeter, 12 set up in this case. 13 Q: Okay. You were asked a bit about 14 describing what goes on in the TOC, and the two (2) 15 channels, and I just wanted to make sure that your 16 evidence is clear about what your role is with respect to 17 information coming in. 18 I take it that you would -- you've got -- 19 you're hearing the ERT channel? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You can hear the TRU channel? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Are you responsible for monitoring 24 the information for being the sole monitor, let me put it 25 that way --
3681 A: No, that -- 2 Q: -- of information coming in on either 3 the ERT channel or the TRU channel? 4 A: No, that wasn't my role that night. 5 My role was to be with the Incident Commander, to provide 6 him options based on what was occurring. 7 Q: Okay. And it's fair to say, I take 8 it, that you would have heard some things at some times? 9 A: I heard some things and other things 10 I probably didn't hear. 11 Q: And you've talked about a period of 12 time, after you heard shooting over the radio, when you 13 then became engaged in doing other activities? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And during that period of time, when 16 you were engaged in other activities, would you have been 17 listening to the radios? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: Okay. And were you confident at that 20 time, that information that was coming in would be 21 recorded on the logger? 22 A: That was my belief at the time, yes. 23 Q: And can you tell us your views or 24 your feelings when you found out that the logger wasn't 25 functioning during that time?
3691 A: Devastated would be an 2 understatement, ma'am. I felt like I'd been punched in 3 the stomach when he told me. 4 Q: And why was that? 5 A: Well, I -- at that point it was a 6 pretty easy to recognize how valuable the recording of 7 the incidents would have been and the fact that it was 8 gone or unavailable now was not very good. 9 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 10 about your notes and your recollections that -- you've 11 told us that your note keeping practices have certainly 12 changed over the course of time. 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: Have you ever been in a position 15 before where you've been asked to testify about certain 16 events, eleven (11) years after they occurred? 17 A: Never. 18 Q: Would it ever have occurred to you, 19 back in 1995, that that could ever be the case? 20 A: No, ma'am. 21 Q: Okay. Finally, you were asked a few 22 questions about the discovery of weapons, whether or not 23 weapons were ever discovered or a gun for Dudley George 24 was ever discovered. 25 Following the shooting, and after on the
3701 night of September the 6th, and after the units returned 2 to the TOC, was the area of the sandy parking lot, or 3 East Parkway, or Army Camp Road, or the Park, ever secure 4 or contained? 5 A: No, ma'am. 6 Q: And in your understanding, how does 7 that affect or impact an ability to, for example, look 8 for evidence? 9 A: Well, I believe it was a considerable 10 time before the scene was searched for evidence, and at 11 that time evidence could be lost, contaminated or moved. 12 Q: And similarly, you were asked whether 13 -- since 1995, whether or not any of the guns, as 14 identified by Gerald George, were found. 15 And to your knowledge, since September 16 6th, 1995, has the Ontario Provincial Police ever been in 17 the Park looking for guns? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: Have they ever had the opportunity to 20 do that? 21 A: To go into the Park to look for guns? 22 No, ma'am. 23 Q: Have they ever been on the Base 24 looking for guns, to your knowledge? 25 A: No. I understand they've been on the
3711 Base looking for evidence in another case -- other cases, 2 but not in a search for weapons, no. 3 Q: And Inspector, those are my 4 questions. And thank you very much. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Ms. Jones. 7 Do you have any re-examination, Ms. Vella? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, I don't have any 9 re-examination, but on behalf of the Commission, I would 10 like to thank Inspector Skinner for giving your 11 testimony. Thank you. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I would also 14 like to thank you for coming and giving the Commission 15 your evidence, thank you. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 20 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where are we 24 now, Mr. Millar. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have Rob, Sergeant
3721 Rob Graham who is here and we could start him tonight or 2 we could start him tomorrow morning; as you wish, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I think 4 we should get some evidence in today. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm prepared 7 to take a short break. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Why don't we take a 9 short break. But before we take the break I was -- I 10 thought that it would be helpful to tell everyone that 11 the witnesses for next week, they're going to Constable 12 Zupancic, George Hebblethwaite, Wayne Jacklin and Rob 13 Huntley. 14 Staff Sergeant Wade Lacroix will be called 15 on May the 8th. And that change had been made and I -- I 16 don't know -- I thought I'd let everybody know but I got 17 an e-mail today and it -- it seems that I didn't let 18 everybody -- I didn't send an e-mail around, so I wanted 19 to just let everybody know. And I'll -- if you just give 20 me five (5) minutes, we can get started. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We could 22 start in about five (5) minutes? I'd like to finish 23 Officer Graham's evidence before the end of tomorrow. So 24 I -- 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That should not be a
3731 problem. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I think 3 it's important that we start now. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Let's 6 take a short break. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 4:25 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 4:30 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, good 16 afternoon. The Commission calls as its next witness 17 Sergeant Robert Graham. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 afternoon, sir. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 21 Graham. 22 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 23 THE REGISTRAR: I understand you wish to 24 swear on the Bible, sir. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
3741 THE REGISTRAR: Would you take the Bible 2 in your right hand please. And would you state your name 3 in full, please, for the record. 4 THE WITNESS: ROBERT ADAM GRAHAM. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 6 7 ROBERT ADAM GRAHAM, Sworn 8 9 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Could you open the book in front of 11 you, Sergeant Graham and turn to Tab 1, please. And I 12 understand that's a copy of your curriculum vitae? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: I would ask that that be the next 15 exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1366, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1366: Document Number 2005548. 19 Resume of Sgt. Robert Adam 20 Graham. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And I understand that you joined the 24 Ontario Provincial Police on June the 7th, 1982? 25 A: Yes.
3751 Q: And you were posted to Chatham 2 Detachment as a Provincial Constable? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And it's my understanding that while 5 at the Chatham Detachment you performed general policing 6 and traffic duties? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And in March of 1987 you were 9 transferred to Blenheim Detachment? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that's a Municipal Detachment? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: And in Blenheim the OPP was under 14 contract to police the town as a -- as the police 15 department for the town. 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And again, your duties were general 18 policing? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then you were promoted to 21 Sergeant in July of 1989 and transferred to Chatham 22 Number One District Communication Centre where you were 23 the shift supervisor? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: A shift supervisor.
3761 A: A shift supervisor, yes. 2 Q: And can you just tell the 3 Commissioner what your duties would have been as a shift 4 supervisor at the District Communication Centre? 5 A: I was supervisor of a group of four 6 (4) dispatchers on my shift. I would supervise them 7 during their -- during their duties as call takers or -- 8 or dispatchers. 9 At that time, actually, in 1989, the new 10 communications centre opened up in Chatham. It was going 11 across the Province and that's when Chatham came on line 12 with the new communication system. 13 So there was a supervisor on each -- a 14 police supervisor on each shift. 15 I would be responsible, for example, if a 16 high speed pursuit came in and was called in by an 17 officer within our dispatch area. I would be responsible 18 to oversee the supervision of that -- of that pursuit and 19 either have it continue or terminate, as the case may be. 20 Q: So the shift -- the sergeant in 21 charge of the shift, back at that time, would have the 22 responsibility to supervise a high speed chase? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And as the sergeant in charge, you 25 could terminate that -- that high speed chase?
3771 A: I could, yes. 2 Q: Yes. And -- 3 A: I would also -- I would also provide 4 guidance, if necessary, policy direction. Many of the 5 Detachments, such as when I worked in Blenheim in the 6 municipal Detachments didn't have supervisors working 7 twenty-four (24) hours. 8 So if a -- if an officer was at a -- was 9 at an incident or at the Detachment and had a question 10 regarding policy, if requested or required, I would 11 assist. 12 Q: So that if there were questions 13 arising on the road, or in a small Detachment, you were a 14 resource to help the officers -- 15 A: Yes, that's right. 16 Q: -- on the -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then I understand that on October 19 -- in October 1991, excuse me, you were transferred to 20 the Chatham Kent Detachment, where again you were a shift 21 supervisor? 22 A: Yes, a shift supervisor on the road. 23 Q: And this was with respect to officers 24 who were on the road? 25 A: That's right.
3781 Q: And in 1984 you joined the emergency 2 response team? 3 A: 1994. 4 Q: 1994, excuse me. And that was the 5 emergency response team for the Number 1 District? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And Chatham Kent was in -- back in 8 those days, in Number 1 District? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And I understand as well that prior 11 to joining, or as part of joining the ERT team, you 12 underwent training? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I understand that that training 15 was approximately six (6) weeks? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And I think it took place in Meaford? 18 A: Yes, it did. 19 Q: And then you remained at Chatham, 20 Kent Detachment until September of 1998 when you were 21 transferred to the Dufferin Detachment, again as a shift 22 supervisor? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And in January of 2005 you were 25 transferred to Collingwood Detachment where you are
3791 presently a shift supervisor? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And taking you back to 1995, what 4 training, if any, had you had with respect to -- prior to 5 September 1, 1995, training with respect to First Nations 6 issues or occupations? 7 A: Nothing, sir. 8 Q: And what experience did you have 9 prior to September 1995 with respect to First Nations 10 policing and First Nations issues, if any? 11 A: Well, I was at Chatham Detachment, 12 within the Chatham Detachment boundaries the Moraviantown 13 reserve was located in our Detachment area. 14 When I actually joined in 19 -- sorry, 15 1982, we -- we handled the policing responsibilities for 16 Moraviantown. 17 They had no officer there at that time. 18 Shortly -- shortly thereafter, Officer Miles Melnyck 19 (phonetic) was -- was hired, and we would -- we would 20 assist Officer Melnyck with any -- with any calls that he 21 required assistance. 22 Q: So you would -- you worked with 23 Officer Melnyck -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- to help him when necessary, to
3801 police in Moraviantown? 2 A: Yes, we did, sir. 3 Q: And the -- with respect to Kettle and 4 Stony Point First Nation, prior to -- well, let's take it 5 prior to 1993. 6 Had you worked with Kettle and Stony Point 7 First Nation or the police officers at Kettle and Stony 8 Point? 9 A: Not actually worked with them. I was 10 familiar with some of them as a result of my time in the 11 communications centre, but I didn't work with any of 12 them. 13 Q: And when you were in the 14 communications centre, you may have interacted with some 15 of the officers in your role as shift supervisor? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And we know that in May of 1993 there 18 was an occupation of a portion of CFB Ipperwash, the army 19 camp on Highway 21. And what knowledge, if any, did you 20 have with respect to that occupation? 21 A: Very little. Just what I may have 22 read in the local newspapers. I -- I had no -- no other 23 knowledge of it. 24 Q: And did you have any involvement as a 25 police officer in 1993 with Camp Ipperwash?
3811 A: No, sir. 2 Q: And the... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And in 1994, did you have any 7 involvement with policing in the Forest or Ipperwash 8 area? 9 A: 1994, no, sir. 10 Q: And I understand that in 1995 you 11 were the assistant team leader of the Number 1 District 12 ERT? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: And the leader of Number 1 district 15 ERT was Stan Korosec? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And that in 1995, in February of 1995 18 the Number 1 District ERT team was called out to an 19 incident in -- at Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And the incident took place on Kettle 22 Point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And inside the front cover of your 25 book there's a one (1) page set of notes for February of
3821 1995. And those are your notes, sir? 2 A: Yes, they are. 3 Q: And back in 1995, can you just tell 4 the Commissioner what your note taking practice was? 5 A: Well when we were involved in 6 incidents, I would take notes in order to later refresh 7 my memory of certain specific instances such as if I made 8 -- made arrests, issued traffic tickets, et cetera, that 9 type of thing. 10 Q: And in the normal course, when would 11 you, back in 1995, have made your notes, sir? 12 A: You make them as soon as practicable 13 after the incident. 14 Q: And was that the practice that you 15 followed in 1995, sir? 16 A: As best I could, most of the time. 17 Yes, sir. 18 Q: And I would ask that this one (1) 19 page of notes from February 26th, 1995 be marked the next 20 exhibit, please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1367, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1367: Handwritten notebook entries 24 of Robert Graham, February 25 16, 1995.
3831 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And I take it that you were at -- on 3 February 26th at 11:00 -- at 23:30 hours, you were called 4 out to Kettle Point as part of the ERT team? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And the -- you remained in the area 7 until the next morning at 09:50 you returned to Forest, 8 or 08:00? 9 A: 08:00 returned to Forest OPP, yes. 10 Q: And can you just briefly tell us what 11 was your role during -- as a member of the ERT team 12 during the morning of September, I guess, 27th in this 13 incident. 14 A: I -- I actually was in the -- in the 15 Command Post area. At that time, I wasn't on any of the 16 -- of the point duties that were -- that were assigned. 17 Q: So your role was in the Command Post? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: And the -- as -- in the Command Post, 20 were you assisting in the communications? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 "Communications handled, reference 23 ERT." 24 Q: Okay. And then in the summer of 1995 25 I understand you were posted to the Grand Bend Detachment
3841 as a shift supervisor? 2 A: Yes, as a summer posting, yes, sir. 3 Q: And that you weren't really leaving 4 your regular post at Chatham Kent, but simply being 5 posted to Grand Bend for the summer? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And in the summertime there was a 8 Grand Bend Detachment that was opened? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And it was, I take it -- back in 1995 11 it was officers from different areas in the District 12 would assist at Grand Bend? 13 A: Yes, sir, 14 Q: And that's what you were doing? 15 A: That's what I was doing, yes. 16 Q: And what was your first involvement 17 with the -- any of the issues at Camp Ipperwash or 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 19 A: I'd say my first involvement would 20 have been on the 29th of July when I was called out. 21 Q: And you were called out as part of 22 the ERT team, Number 1 District ERT team? 23 A: Yes, sir, I was. 24 Q: And at Tab 2 of the book in front of 25 you are notes. And are these your notes for the period
3851 July 29th to August 2nd, 1995, and August 19th to August 2 23rd, 1995? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes, sir, they are. 7 Q: And I would ask that those notes be 8 marked the next exhibit? 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1368, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1368: Handwritten notebook entries 12 of Robert Graham, July 29, 13 30, 31 , August 01, 02, 19, 14 20, 21 and 22, 1995. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And the -- can you tell us what you 18 did on July 29th when you were called out? 19 A: Yes, sir, if I could read from my 20 original notebook, I find it easier to follow. 21 Q: Sure, do you have any independent 22 recollection? 23 A: Of being called out that day? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: A little bit. Yes, sir, I do.
3861 Q: Perhaps you could tell us what you 2 remember, then refer to your notebook. 3 A: I remember that we were called to 4 Forest Detachment as a result of a -- an incident that 5 had taken place at -- at the Army Camp, that we responded 6 to Forest OPP. And eventually I had officers remain 7 behind to possibly assist or be in the area if -- if the 8 local detachment officers required any assistance. 9 And, in fact, later on that day, as a 10 member of the ERT team, I was dispatched to another 11 incident down in Essex County, actually. 12 Q: So that on your notes, and if you 13 refer to your notes it appears at 14:30 you were 14 activated by the Communications Centre to attend in 15 Forest with respect to CFB Ipperwash, and at 16:30 you 16 were -- if I've read this correctly you were in Forest 17 and you -- were you briefed by Acting Superintendent 18 Carson? 19 A: Yes, sir, I would say we were 20 briefed. 21 Q: And what about Mark Wright? Do you 22 recall Mark Wright being there? 23 A: I don't recall him being there. 24 Q: And there's a note in -- at Tab 4... 25
3871 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: There's a copy of -- this is a copy 4 of Exhibit P-411. Prior to preparing for your attendance 5 at the Inquiry had you seen this document before? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: I don't -- I don't recall seeing this 10 one in particular -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- but I've seen so many documents 13 lately I... 14 Q: Well, that's fair enough and if -- 15 the -- there's a number of references to you in this 16 document. But there's one (1) that refers to Mark Wright 17 July 29th, 1995, page 23, it's the fourth page in. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Where -- it's a note of what Mark 20 Wright did on July 29th and one (1) of the last points 21 was Sergeant Graham called in and briefed? 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: And does that assist at all with your 24 recollection of whether or not Mark Wright was there? 25 A: It doesn't assist my recollection but
3881 I -- I certainly don't quarrel with the fact that he -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- would have been there then. 4 Q: And when you attended and were 5 briefed by Acting Superintendent Carson, and whoever else 6 was there, can you recall what you were told had 7 happened? 8 A: Just that the -- the Natives had come 9 out into the -- the front area of the -- of the -- the 10 Park. 11 Q: And that's -- 12 A: Or, I'm sorry, not the Park, the -- 13 the Army Camp. 14 Q: And by that you're referring to the 15 built-up area of the Army Camp? 16 A: The built-up area, yes. 17 Q: And the occupiers had moved into the 18 built-up area? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And so that your notes say: 21 "Advised to stand down." 22 And then: 23 "En route to Chatham at 19:00." 24 Is that -- have I read that correctly? 25 A: Yes, sir.
3891 Q: And so at -- between 16:30 and 19:00 2 you were on standby, is that -- do I read that correctly? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And then subsequently you were -- you 5 went to a different -- responded to another matter in 6 Gosfield? 7 A: Gosfield South Township, yes. 8 Q: And so did you return that evening to 9 the Ipperwash area? 10 A: No, sir, I didn't, not that evening. 11 Q: And there's a reference at 24:50, 12 could -- oh, I take it Inspector Carson attended at the 13 Gosfield item with you; is that correct? There's -- 14 A: Down -- down there as well. Not with 15 me in particular, but yes. 16 Q: But he attended at that incident? 17 A: I -- I would -- I would say so by my 18 notes, yes, sir. 19 Q: Because it refers to debriefing -- 20 A: To a debriefing. 21 Q: -- held by Carson? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Then on July 30th you -- your notes 24 indicate you were activated in the afternoon regarding 25 Ipperwash?
3901 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then at 16:55 you met with 3 Carson, your notes indicate, and advised you were to bunk 4 at Pinery bunkhouse, to be ready at moment's notice. 5 "Jacklin/Poole to be relieved for 6 night. Back in 09:00." 7 A: That's actually Zacher. 8 Q: Zacher, excuse me. 9 A: Zacher and Poole. 10 Q: And so what did you do that night, 11 from the afternoon and evening? 12 A: I don't -- other than what's -- 13 what's noted that I actually contacted Sergeant John 14 Moffatt (phonetic) requesting ERT personnel from Number 2 15 District, and that I contacted 6 District team leader Rob 16 Huntley. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And then at 21:30 I have a note that 19 I bunked in at Pinery -- or Pinery Provincial Park, and 20 at 23:00 I was off duty. 21 Q: And then on July 31st you were again 22 on standby at Pinery Park regarding CFB Ipperwash? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And then it appears at 23:00 you were 25 called out and became involved in a fatal motor vehicle
3911 accident? 2 A: No, sir, I did not. 3 Q: Okay. What -- 4 A: At 23:00 Jacklin, Dellemonache, 5 Parks, and Dougan were activated for Park patrol. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: And at 03:40 hours as a result of 8 fatal MVA, Ternovan, Whelan, Root, Gransden, Poole, and 9 Zacher were activated. 10 Q: And so you did not attend at the -- 11 the accident? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: And -- but you were -- I -- I believe 14 you were the team leader at this point because Stan 15 Korosec was off on vacation? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And then August -- August 1st there's 18 a note: 19 "Standby at Pinery Park re. CFB 20 Ipperwash." 21 And what did you do with respect to -- on 22 August the 1st? Your notes indicate that you conducted 23 patrols from 22:00 to 01:00 hours, I believe. 24 A: "With PC Lorch patrol Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park. All --"
3921 Q: And the notes indicate all quiet with 2 no incidents? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And then on August the 2nd? 5 A: I was on duty again and basically 6 cleaning up the -- the bunkhouse, the Pinery bunkhouse in 7 order to turn it over to Number 6 District. 8 At 12:00, we left Pinery Provincial Park 9 and at 17:00 I was off duty. 10 Q: And at Tab 3, there's a report and 11 it's dated August the 2nd, 1995 and it's a one (1) page 12 report of what you did during the period July 29th and 13 August 2nd with respect to Ipperwash? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And this was a report that was 16 prepared by you? 17 A: Yes, sir. That's my handwriting. 18 Q: And I would ask that this be the next 19 exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1369, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1369: Document Number 2003547. 23 Interview Report, R. Graham 24 re. July 29 to August 02, 25 1995.
3931 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And this report, you were requested, 3 as I understand it, to make this report and hand it in 4 for use by your superiors in your chain of command? 5 A: I don't remember why I was asked to 6 do this. 7 Q: But you prepared it and do you recall 8 handing it in, putting it somewhere, giving it to 9 someone? 10 I understand that -- 11 A: Yes, I -- 12 Q: -- there was a place at Pinery Park 13 to put these things at the end of your shift but -- 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: -- but you can't remember? 16 A: I don't remember. 17 Q: Okay. Then you returned -- your team 18 was activated again, I think, for August the 7th to the 19 11th, I believe. 20 But you didn't attend when the team went 21 back, August -- on August the 7th? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: And you returned on August the 19th? 24 If you -- 25 A: Yes, yes.
3941 Q: -- go to page -- Tab 2, page 4. Your 2 notes start for the period August the 19th to...and in 3 the notebook, you'll see at the bottom of the page, it's 4 page 74. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: So we're all on the same page? 7 A: Thank you. Yes, thank you. 8 Q: And can you tell us basically what 9 you did on the period August 19th to the 23rd? 10 A: On August the 19th, I reported to 11 Pinery Park at 9:30 in the morning and at 19:00 hours I 12 went on patrol with PC Larry Parks. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Ipperwash Park area. I have a few -- 15 a few notations here in my notes: 16 "Vehicle check at 19:50 hours." 17 Q: Yes. And that was on Army Camp Road? 18 A: It was actually on Highway 21, by 19 Army Camp Road. 20 Q: And then at 22:06? 21 A: 22:06 I have noted as: 22 "Advised by Comm. centre, Ternovan 23 reports five (5), six (6) gunshots from 24 CFB side." 25 Q: Yes.
3951 A: And at 22:15: 2 "Beach area -- beach area. Speak to 3 Ternovan and Blanchard." 4 Q: And why did you speak to Ternovan and 5 Blanchard? 6 A: Ternovan was the officer who reported 7 the five (5) or six (6) shots. 8 Q: And what, if anything, do you recall 9 Constable Ternovan saying to you about the shots? 10 A: I don't recall anything he said to 11 me, sir. 12 Q: Excuse me, at 23:00? 13 A: 23:00, "West Ipperwash patrol." 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: 00:20 hours I have noted a highway 16 Traffic Act charge that Constable Larry Parks issued -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- and some evidence pertaining to 19 that. 20 Q: And at 00:54? 21 A: 00:54, I noted: 22 "Notified by PC Mortimer of damage to 23 a cruiser in Pinery Provincial Park." 24 Q: And that's as a result of something 25 that happened at the Park?
3961 A: At Pinery Provincial Park, yes. 2 Q: And then you went off duty at three 3 o'clock in the morning of -- 4 A: It would have been the 20th, 5 actually -- 6 Q: The 20th. 7 A: At zero -- at 3:00 in the morning, 8 yes. 9 Q: And the accident -- the damage to the 10 cruiser at Pinery Park had nothing to do with the events 11 at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 12 A: No, sir. No, it did not. 13 Q: It did not. And then again, on 14 August the 20th, you were back on duty, I take it again 15 for the night shift? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: And the -- among other things you did 18 patrols and I note that just before 03:00 that it was 19 very quiet? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: And there were no incidents that you 22 made a note of? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And then on August the 21st, you were 25 again on duty at 19:00 and there's an incident that
3971 starts after 20:30 and carries on, 21:17, but it appears 2 that that was an incident in Grand Bend? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And had nothing to do with either the 5 Park or the army camp? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And the -- later, from zero (0) -- if 8 you turn to page 78 of your notebook or page 8 of the 9 notes, you patrolled Ipperwash from 00:30 to when you 10 went off duty at 03:00? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And there were no incidents at -- 13 during that patrol? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And then on August 22nd, you again 16 worked the night shift from 19:00 hours to 03:00 hours. 17 It was very quiet and there were no incidents? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: That's what you've noted in your -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- book? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: And on August the 23rd, you were off 24 duty? 25 A: On August 23rd?
3981 Q: It appears off duty -- on duty at 2 Grand Bend? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: But you weren't involved down at 5 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: Then I would ask that you turn to Tab 8 5. And Tab 5 is simply a -- one (1) of the reports that 9 was filled out by you for August the 19th. 10 A: It wasn't filled out by -- no. This 11 particular piece of paper here is not my handwriting 12 and -- 13 Q: This one (1) is -- excuse me, it's 14 Constable Parks. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: But you were with him that day? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And that's Exhibit P-1221, Inquiry 19 document 2000801. 20 Then if I could ask you to look in the 21 inner part of your book and there's a handwritten -- 22 there's a loose piece of paper. It's a part of your 23 notebook. 24 It's page 82 of your notebook and it -- 25 there's an entry August 31st, 1995 and these are your
3991 notes? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: And I would ask that this page of 4 notes be marked the next exhibit. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1370, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1370: Handwritten notebook entries 8 of Robert Graham, August 31, 9 September 01, 1995. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And August 31st says: 13 "Attend DHQ ERT negotiation meeting." 14 And then I think it says: 15 "Authorized Inspector Carson."? 16 A: A-U-T-H, which would be authority. 17 Q: Authority? 18 A: Inspector Carson. 19 Q: Do you have recollection today what 20 that meeting was about? 21 A: No, sir, I don't. 22 Q: Do you have any recollection today 23 whether it had anything to do with Ipperwash Provincial 24 Park? 25 A: I don't have a recollection of the
4001 meeting, so I don't. 2 Q: And prior to September 1, 1995, did 3 you have any information or had been told about any 4 information about the possibility of a takeover of the 5 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 6 A: I -- prior to September 1st? 7 Q: Yes. Or prior to September 4th, 8 let's say. 9 A: Yes, sir. Yes, I -- I had heard some 10 information or some talk about the possibility, yes. 11 Q: And can you recall today what you 12 heard, sir? 13 A: Just the gist of it was that it was 14 possible that once the Park closed, that the occupiers 15 from the army camp may come in to the -- may come in to 16 the Provincial Park. 17 Q: And there's a part of Exhibit P-1370, 18 there's a note: 19 "Friday, September 1, 1995. On duty, 20 Grand Bend Detachment." 21 And the -- that was part of your duties as 22 a shift supervisor at Grand Bend during the summer? 23 A: I'm sorry, when? 24 Q: On September the 1st? 25 A: Yes. Yes, I was working at Grand
4011 Bend. 2 Q: And we know there was a meeting with 3 respect to Project Maple, as it became known, on 4 September the 1st. 5 Did you attend the planning meeting -- 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: -- for Project Maple? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: Did you play any role in the planning 10 for the possible take over of the Provincial Park? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: And there's a reference on -- 18:15, 13 on September the 1st. 14 "Meet with Sergeant Korosec re: ERT." 15 And then it -- at 20:00 hours: 16 "Meeting with MNR staff re: patrol at 17 Park." 18 And then: 19 "21:00 patrols Pinery Park." 20 Do you recall what that refers to? 21 A: No, sir. I don't recall what took 22 place. 23 Q: And then there's: 24 " A vehicle was stopped at Riverside 25 trailer area on Highway 21."
4021 That is down by Pinery Park, is that 2 correct? 3 A: Are you talking about 23:20 hours? 4 Q: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 9 A: Yes, sir. This is the impaired 10 driver I dealt with that I had to chase. 11 Q: And -- but that had nothing to do 12 with -- 13 A: No. No. 14 Q: -- Ipperwash or -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- Provincial Park? And perhaps that 17 would be a good time to stop, because we're moving to 18 September the 4th. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A good time 20 to stop. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 23 adjourn now and reconvene tomorrow morning, thank you. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: See you nine o'clock 25 tomorrow.
4031 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Nine o'clock 2 tomorrow morning. 3 4 (WITNESS RETIRES) 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 7 adjourned until tomorrow, Friday April 21st at 9:00 a.m. 8 9 --- Upon adjourning at 5:04 p.m. 10 11 12 13 14 Certified Correct, 15 16 17 18 19 _________________ 20 Carol Geehan, Ms. 21 22 23 24 25