11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 18th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) 24 Maanit Zemel ) (np) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) (np) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 STANLEY FRANK KOROSEC, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 10 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 20 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Anna Perschy 22 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 30 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 88 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 138 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jonathan George 165 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 170 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 271 15 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 295 16 17 18 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 307 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1330 Transcript of Mobile Command Post Logger 4 tape number 1, Track 1, Disc 1 of 3, 5 start 07:43 hrs, Sept. 05, 1995. Sgt 6 Stan Korosec, Const. Randy Burch. 14 7 P-1331 Reserved. 20 8 P-1332 Document Number 1005315. Mark Dew's 9 Affidavit re. Ken Deane, August 05, 1998. 88 10 P-1333 Affidavit of Gerry W. King, November 08, 11 2005. 306 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
91 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Nice to see everybody again. Hope everybody's 10 refreshed after a week at home. Nice to see you all. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: All right. Before we 12 begin the cross-examination there's just one (1) small 13 matter that I wanted to deal with. 14 And I'm going to play a part of a 15 transmission that -- I guess it's a telephone call 16 between Sergeant -- then Sergeant Korosec and Constable 17 Randy Burch, Commissioner, and Constable Burch was a crew 18 member of the vessel H.H. Graham. 19 And the extract that we have -- this is an 20 approximately nine (9) minute long call and the extract 21 that we have this morning deals with -- is just an 22 approximately one (1) minute and forty-five (45) second-- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 24 an extra copy of a transcript of it? Thank you. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We do. You should
101 have -- you should have had one there but we've got 2 another one. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 5 STANLEY FRANK KOROSEC, Resumed 6 7 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And the extract that we've got is one 9 (1) minute and forty-five (45) seconds. It's one (1) 10 minute and forty (40) seconds into the call. 11 And where it begins, Commissioner, because 12 it -- it was captured just a little bit too -- I would 13 have preferred it to have been captured just a few 14 seconds before, but Sergeant Korosec is telling Constable 15 Burch what the instructions from Inspector Carson were 16 and it was to patrol off the Army Camp and check vessels 17 at night. And then there was a question and then it 18 begins, "if they're of the Native type." 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 21 22 [Excerpt of conversation in progress at elapsed time 23 08:43:20 . Call Starts at 16:23 Hours . this extract 1:40 24 into the Call] 25
111 SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec (ERT leader) 2 RB = Constable Randy Burch (Crew of OPP vessel H.H. 3 Graham) 4 5 SK If they're of the native type 6 RB Hm Hm 7 SK Ah. Just jot down as much information as 8 you can, who they are... 9 RB As we possibly can get 10 SK Yep 11 RB OK 12 SK And ah, he wants you, and I quote, "not 13 too damned close" 14 RB Right 15 SK OK 16 RB Where do....Does he have any suggestions 17 where we hide the fiberglass boat? 18 (laughs) 19 SK (laughs) Stay out. Stay out a ways. 20 What..what we really want to do is is, 21 we've got them land sea and pretty soon 22 air 23 RB Right 24 SK Ahm A little psychological tactic here. 25 We've got the place pretty well rimmed
121 with ERT guys and cruisers at at 2 checkpoints.... 3 RB Right 4 SK checking vehicles. Just like you guys 5 might be doing out there so, so we're 6 letting them know that we haven't gone 7 away 8 RB Right 9 SK And uh we uh we just want to make that 10 presence felt. Like at night time your 11 not going to be seen out there but get out 12 there at 1900 or so. Grand Bend, I think 13 the Grand Bend boat is out there now 14 RB OK 15 SK So you guys will be kind of relieving them 16 RB OK. We'll touch base with J.J. just to 17 ahm... 18 SK OK 19 RB get a feel for the area 20 SK OK 21 RB (inaudible) 22 SK Yep 23 RB What kind of armament are they playing 24 with? Any idea? 25 SK (Sighs) We, we you know. They're
131 natives. 2 They all got long guns 3 RB Yep 4 SK Ahm. There's some intelligence or some, I 5 shouldn't even say intelligence, or some 6 ah or some word they got AK 47s or what 7 not, rifles and everything. Hasn't been 8 confirmed at all 9 RB OK 10 SK In fact, we've never been, in this whole 11 month we've been doing this thing, and 12 even yesterday when it hit the fan, been 13 confronted by a native holding a long gun. 14 And he'd probably be a dead native by now 15 RB Right 16 SK Ahm, ah. To let you know, TRU, London TRU 17 is moving into, moving into Pinnery Park 18 19 [Conversation continues about meals and other mundane 20 matters] 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And that's the end of the segment.
141 And I would ask that this segment of -- of this call be - 2 - the transcript be marked the next exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1330, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1330: Transcript of Mobile Command 7 Post Logger tape number 1, 8 Track 1, Disc 1 of 3, start 9 07:43 hrs, Sept. 05, 1995. 10 Sgt Stan Korosec, Const. 11 Randy Burch. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And Mr. Korosec, the call is -- 15 apparently you're giving instructions to Constable Burch 16 with respect to what the H.H. Graham is to do? 17 A: That's correct, from Inspector 18 Carson's orders. 19 Q: You were passing on what you were 20 told by Inspector Carson to Constable Burch? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And as I understand it, the boat from 23 Grand Bend was on the day shift and in effect the H.H. 24 Graham was going to be on the night shift? 25 A: I believe so, yes.
151 Q: And the purpose of -- one of the 2 purposes of the boat from this extract marked Exhibit P- 3 1313 (sic) is to check -- check vessels much like cars 4 have been checked? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And the -- on the second page 7 Constable Burch -- to you recognize Constable Burch's 8 voice? 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Okay. And we're instructed however 11 that is Constable Burch. On the second page you're 12 asked: 13 "What kind of armament they're playing 14 with? Any idea?" 15 You respond: 16 "We -- you know, they're Natives. They 17 all got long guns." 18 And do you recall this conversation -- 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: Does listening to it assist you in 21 bringing it back at all? 22 A: Not -- not the call. No, sir. 23 Q: And the reference to long guns can 24 you help us today with what you would have been referring 25 to; "They all got long guns"?
161 A: Well, certainly there was -- prior to 2 this and in briefings and even from Inspector Carson you 3 know there was no doubt that there was -- there was long 4 guns and might have been shotguns, hunting -- hunting 5 type guns, on the Base, on the former Base, and certainly 6 reports of -- of shots being heard from inside the Base 7 or in -- in the Park -- or inside the Base during the -- 8 during the -- during the summer -- summer period. 9 Q: And you were aware that the people on 10 the Army Camp were hunters? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And as hunters they had hunting 13 rifles? 14 A: Sure, as did many people out in -- in 15 the rural area where we police. 16 Q: Yeah, in the rural area many people 17 have hunting rifles? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And there are many hunters in any 20 particular rural area whether they're Aboriginal or 21 otherwise? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: And then you indicate some 24 intelligence with respect to AK-47's. Do you have any 25 recollection today what that's being referred to --
171 what's being referred to? 2 A: I -- I don't know exactly where or 3 from whom I heard that. At a briefing or -- or something 4 there was some mention of it. 5 Q: And you indicate it hadn't been 6 confirmed? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And that -- that is your voice on 9 that call? 10 A: Yes, it is, yes. 11 Q: Yes. And then you go on to say: 12 "In fact we've never been, in this 13 whole month we've been doing this and 14 even yesterday when it hit the fan, 15 been confronted by a Native holding a 16 long gun. [and] He'd -- he'd probably 17 be dead Native by now." 18 So that in August when the various 19 undercover campers and the ERT teams were on the ground 20 in the Provincial Park the -- you're indicating here that 21 no one had ever been confronted by one (1) of the 22 occupiers or -- of the Army Camp with a long gun? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And then the phrase, "And he'd 25 probably be a dead Native by now," what were you
181 referring to there? 2 A: Well, in -- in hear him talking 3 about, "and even yesterday when it hit the fan," it 4 refers to the -- 5 Q: September the 4th? 6 A: -- September the 4th incident on the 7 beach with Judas George when Constable Whelan, after -- 8 after that verbal confrontation we had down there advised 9 me that he'd seen the -- the butt of a long gun in the 10 trunk of the car. 11 That's what I'm referring to and certainly 12 if -- if whoever is holding that -- that gun in the trunk 13 of the car pulled it out or if Constable Whelan had let 14 us know verbally that, you know, a gun was seen the first 15 reaction of a -- of a police officer when you hear gun, 16 gun, gun or -- and that's -- that's how training goes, 17 certainly that -- that situation could have got a lot 18 worse. 19 We were very fortunate, very lucky that 20 Constable Whelan took the actions that he did. I -- I 21 think it was proper in what he did. 22 He had an -- he had an eye on what was 23 going on there and had he -- like I said two (2) 24 situations had that gun come out of the trunk and at that 25 point it probably would have been proper for him to let
191 the rest of us know down there given the situation that a 2 gun was out, there's no doubt in my mind from our 3 training that our guns would have come out too in -- in 4 defence of our lives and that the situation could have -- 5 could have turned very, very tragic. That -- 6 Q: And -- 7 A: -- that's kind of what I was trying 8 to relay -- relate to him at that point. 9 Q: And that didn't happen then, nor had 10 it happened during the whole month? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And those are my questions. The 13 conversation continues, Commissioner, on matters with 14 respect to meals and other sort of administrative things. 15 Thank you very much, Mr. Korosec. 16 A: You're welcome. 17 Q: Those are my questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. First cross -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, I need to reserve 21 an exhibit number for the CD. We'll -- we'll be marking 22 a CD with all of the calls that we've played and there 23 are some extra ones so I -- I have to burn a new CD. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1331, Your Honour.
201 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-1331 will 2 be the CD. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1331: Reserved. 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 8 Jackson? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 10 Mr. Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 15 Q: Good morning, Mr. Korosec. 16 A: Good morning. 17 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and as 18 you likely know I'm going to ask you some questions on 19 behalf of the OPP. And I have one (1) area that I do 20 want to question you about and only one (1) area. 21 You were asked during the course of your 22 examination-in-chief by My Friend Mr. Millar whether 23 references to the Premier or other politicians during the 24 course of Command Post briefings in any way influenced 25 your exercise of discretion as a police officer.
211 You remember those -- those types of 2 questions? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I want to ask you something about the 5 same area from a slightly different perspective. It's 6 quite clear from the evidence, that you spent a 7 considerable period of time with then-Inspector John 8 Carson, between September the 4th and September the 7th. 9 And I want to ask you the following: Did 10 anything, from his words or actions suggest to you that 11 his decisions as a police officer were in any way 12 influenced by the views of politicians? 13 A: No. 14 Q: I want to ask you the exact same 15 question in respect of then-Acting Detective Sergeant 16 Mark Wright, or Acting Staff Sergeant Mark Wright. 17 Did anything from Mark Wright's words or 18 actions suggest to you that political views were in any 19 way influencing his exercise of discretion as a police 20 officer? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Thank you, sir, those are my 23 questions. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much. I think Ms. Perschy had some questions.
221 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Good morning, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANNA PERSCHY: 9 Q: Good morning, sir. 10 A: Morning. 11 Q: My name is Anna Perschy and I'm one 12 of the Counsel for Deb Hutton who was, at the time in 13 question, the Executive Assistant to the Premier, and I 14 just have a few minor questions to put to you this 15 morning. 16 You testified that you attended at a 17 meeting with Inspector Carson and others -- other members 18 of the OPP at London District Headquarters on August 19 29th, 1995 where you discussed the possible occupation of 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You recall giving that testimony. 23 Inspector Carson testified for the Inquiry -- and for the 24 benefit of My Friends, I'm referring to his testimony on 25 May 12th at pages 191 and 192.
231 He testified that he regarded any 2 occupation of the Park as different from the issues at 3 West Ipperwash beach, where the Kettle and Stony Point 4 Band had initiated a land claim, and that he regarded a 5 possible occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park as an 6 illegal occupation and that he had communicated those 7 views at this meeting on August 29th. 8 Do you recall him communicating anything 9 along those lines to you? 10 A: Vaguely, I do. Exactly what he said, 11 I don't know. 12 Q: Fair enough. Now, you testified 13 about the planning meeting on September 1st, 1995 and I 14 believe Mr. Millar took you to your handwritten notes of 15 that meeting, which are at Tab 13 of Commission Counsel's 16 documents. 17 And I won't -- I won't take you to the 18 notes themselves, but they -- they refer, and again Mr. 19 Millar took you to this, they refer to MNR obtaining an 20 objection and that that could take twenty-four (24) 21 hours. 22 And I take it that that was your 23 understanding at the time; that's what you took from the 24 meeting with respect to the timeframe for an injunction? 25 A: Correct.
241 Q: Mark Wright testified at the Inquiry, 2 and for the benefit of My Friends I'm referring to his 3 testimony on February 22nd of this year at pages 107 to 4 108, that he understood and expected that when the OPP 5 received the injunction Order, the OPP would then enforce 6 the injunction and take back the Park. 7 And I'm wondering, was that your 8 understanding? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Yes, it was. 13 Q: When the occupation occurred on 14 September 4th, you testified that you had your officers 15 withdraw, after communicating with Inspector Carson, you 16 had your officers withdraw from the Park as a result of 17 the behaviour of the occupiers, in order -- in order to 18 avoid further confrontation with them. 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: You recall giving that testimony? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You had concerns about safety at that 23 point in time? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: Nevertheless, you also testified that
251 you and other members of the OPP accompanied MNR later 2 that night to -- in order to serve notice on the 3 occupiers? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And My Friend, Mr. Millar, took you 6 to page 5 of the scribe notes and I was wondering if you 7 could turn that up. It's Tab 17 of your materials. It's 8 P-426, page 5. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: It's the entry at 22:38 on September 11 4. And it's the exchange between you and Inspector 12 Carson. 13 "John Carson..." 14 And I'm reading from the scribe notes. 15 "...asked who the spokesperson is and 16 that we will serve them. This has to 17 be done so that the [it says junction 18 but I'm assuming it's injunction] can 19 be made. 20 Stan Korosec replied, maybe we can 21 serve Bert as he seems receptive. Grab 22 one of our guys, arrest them as they 23 said they would. 24 John Carson..." 25 And this is what I wanted to draw your
261 attention to: 2 "We have to get the papers served so by 3 daylight we are operational." 4 And it appears from this passage that 5 Inspector Carson was conveying the need to serve the 6 papers that night so as to be able to proceed with the 7 injunction so that the OPP could proceed to enforce the 8 injunction the next day. 9 And I'm wondering was that your 10 understanding at the time? 11 A: Yes, it was. 12 Q: Now I want to take you back to 1994, 13 just briefly. Mr. Millar took you to some training 14 materials for the West Ipperwash Beach situation dealing 15 with occurrences there where there were issues of Colour 16 of Right. 17 And I understand -- and I'm referring to 18 P-1093, Exhibit P-1093, sorry. And Mr. Millar took you 19 to that exhibit and I believe you testified that you 20 didn't recall attending the training for dealing with the 21 occurrences. 22 But your signature was on the training 23 materials as having attended and I just wanted to 24 clarify, I take it you don't -- you don't dispute that 25 you were in attendance.
271 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: In part of the training package 3 there's a memorandum from Sergeant Wright regarding the 4 West Ipperwash Beach situation and he noted that the OPP 5 was a neutral entity and that the OPP would take 6 enforcement action against anyone who breaks the law 7 regardless of race. 8 And as I said, I gather you don't recall 9 seeing the training package but I take it that this is a 10 concept that you were well aware of both in 1994 and in 11 1995, namely that in enforcing the law the OPP doesn't 12 treat some people differently on the basis of race? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And finally, I was wondering if you 15 could turn to the typed scribe notes again, P-426 at page 16 68. And I don't believe Mr. Millar took you to this. 17 It's the briefing at 18:12 on September 18 the 6th. And it appears from the typed notes that there 19 are references to you, so it appears that you were in 20 attendance at the briefing. 21 And I wanted to draw your attention to the 22 last paragraph where it states: 23 "Les Kobayashi heading off to Sarnia 24 tomorrow at 18 [sorry] at 8:15, court 25 at 9:00 a.m. for emergency injunction.
281 Want this kept quiet. Arranging for 2 extra court security. Hopefully an 3 injunction tomorrow." 4 And I wanted to ask you first, sir, do you 5 recall being present for the briefing? 6 A: I don't recall it. 7 Q: But as I said, it does appear in the 8 notes from the briefing there are references to you 9 earlier, above on page 68, there's a reference to Stan 10 Korsec -- Korosec, sorry: 11 "No sight of protesters." 12 And then again: 13 "John Carson telling Stan Korosec to 14 brief his guys." 15 And then at the end of the briefing on 16 page 69: 17 "Stan Korosec advises that they can..." 18 Sorry, this is a reference to night 19 vision. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: "John Carson have night vision there. 22 Make sure they pay attention. 23 Stan Korosec advises that they can 24 bring more in. 25 Stan [sorry] John advises you're giving
291 them another target. 2 Stan Korosec use night vision and keep 3 an eye." 4 So even if you don't recall, I take it you 5 -- you would have been present at this briefing? 6 A: I would have been present, yes. 7 Q: Now, this briefing occurred at 18:12, 8 6:12 p.m. shortly before you would have briefed the night 9 shift. And Inspector Carson testified before this 10 Inquiry and again, for the benefit of My Friends, I'm 11 referring to his testimony on May 19th of 2005, page 113, 12 that when he went off-duty on the evening of September 13 6th at approximately 7:20, 19:20, he expected that things 14 would be similar to the previous evening and it was his 15 intention that the OPP would maintain the checkpoints, 16 monitor with night vision, and wait for the injunction 17 the next day. 18 And what I wanted to ask you, sir, was 19 before you started receiving various reports from the 20 scene later on that evening, at around, you know, 18:00 - 21 - 18:00 hours, 18:30, was that your understanding of the 22 plan for the evening, that the OPP would simply proceed 23 as it had done the night before and wait for the 24 injunction the next day? 25 A: That's correct. That -- it was just
301 another day. I was planning on going home after briefing 2 the -- briefing the night shift. 3 Q: Those are all of my questions. Thank 4 you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 Mr. Alexander...? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: A moment's -- Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 13 didn't hear. 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Just a moment, to 15 set up. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 21 Q: Good morning, Mr. Korosec. 22 A: Good morning. 23 Q: My name is Basil Alexander, and I am 24 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 25 several members of the George family, including Sam
311 George, who's sitting here beside me and I have a number 2 of questions to ask you this morning. 3 Mr. Commissioner, I can advise that with 4 respect to my estimate, my estimate has been compressed a 5 little bit. I expect to probably be in the range of an 6 hour to two (2) hours, instead of my original estimate of 7 two (2) to three (3) hours. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Alexander. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 12 Q: To start off with, I'm to ask you to 13 turn your mind back to something you talked about this 14 morning, and that's the afternoon of September 4th, 15 around four o'clock with respect to the gun butt -- 16 supposed gun butt that Constable Whelan reported to you. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, as I understand it, that 19 occurred about 4:10 in the afternoon; does that sound 20 about right? 4:07 is what it says in your notes. 21 A: That's correct, approximately. 22 Q: And you testified that Whelan told 23 you about the gun, but he didn't tell you about the gun, 24 and this is one of the clarifications this morning, until 25 much later.
321 In fact, there was no comment of gun, and 2 given your training the incident is what would have 3 occurred as a result of that; is that correct? 4 A: He -- he told me of that as soon as 5 we started -- as soon as we finished -- I finished 6 dealing down there when -- when Judas left. We stayed 7 for a few minutes, I walked back to where my cruiser was 8 and I believe Constable Whelan was at the top of the ramp 9 or the hill that goes down to the beach, and that's when 10 he -- he told me of it. 11 Q: So it was after you were done with 12 Judas, and that would have taken a few minutes, at the 13 very least. Constable Whelan indicated it probably took 14 about forty (40) minutes or so; that's approximately when 15 he told you. 16 A: I don't -- as soon as I finished 17 dealing with -- with -- with that -- with Judas down 18 there, he told me about it, before I got back to my car. 19 Q: Okay. And I want to be fair to you, 20 because you don't mention the supposed gun butt in your 21 notes, so I want to make sure that this is an independent 22 recollection you're getting, this isn't something you 23 have in your notes. 24 A: That's correct, I do recall it. 25 Q: But you didn't observe it yourself;
331 Constable Whelan is the one who observed it? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And did he tell you about the 4 location of the car? 5 A: It was on the -- on the former Army 6 Base side. He may have pointed it out to me where the 7 car was but -- maybe the general direction I'm not sure. 8 Q: Okay. It was his testimony that it 9 was about -- that he saw it from approximately forty (40) 10 to fifty (50) feet away for about a split second. Did he 11 inform you of that when he informed you that saw a 12 supposed gun butt in the trunk of a car? 13 A: I don't recall exactly what he told 14 me. 15 Q: But that doesn't ring any bells in 16 terms of anything he told you? 17 A: No. 18 Q: He may have just told you it was a 19 gun butt in the car? 20 A: He -- he mentioned that the trunk was 21 -- was opened or it had opened and that someone had 22 reached in and what -- pulled out or had in his hand 23 something that in effect what he thought was -- was the 24 butt of a long gun. 25 Q: But he didn't mention that -- you
341 don't recall him mentioning the distance or how long he 2 saw the butt? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did he mention the fact that another 5 -- that the other person apparently mentioned not to take 6 it out? 7 A: I don't recall that. 8 Q: The other part I wanted to clarify 9 with respect to this is what you told Inspector Carson. 10 Now, if I understand you correctly you informed -- did 11 you inform Inspector Carson of this immediately when you 12 had your phone call with Inspector Carson? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And that would have been 15 approximately 4:45 that afternoon? 16 A: I don't recall what time I called it 17 in but it was right after this event. 18 Q: Could I ask that Exhibit P-410 be 19 given to the Witness please? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: For the reference of My Friends this 24 is Carson's handwritten notes. 25
351 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And if I could ask you to turn to 4 page 53 which is just behind Tab 4. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you'll see what appears to be 9 John Carson's notes about a phone call with you and we've 10 had him -- John Carson was here to testify about this and 11 the handwriting's a little bit difficult to read and -- 12 but Inspector Carson was kind enough to read this into 13 the record so we have an idea of what it is. 14 So for the benefit of My Friends I'm going 15 to read what he said in order to assist you with what it 16 says there. 17 So during his examination-in-chief by Mr. 18 Millar on May 16th, 2005, at page 158 starting at line 19 16: 20 "Q: And can you tell us what that 21 conversation was with Sergeant Korosec? 22 A: I got a phone call from Sergeant 23 Korosec at 4:45 in the afternoon. He 24 advises a confrontation -- of a 25 confrontation with natives on Matheson
361 Drive. Judas George was involved in a 2 verbal confrontation with Korosec. 3 George told that vehicles on Matheson 4 Drive must have licences and insurance, 5 et cetera. George indicated that 6 Matheson Drive was theirs. The Natives 7 moved their vehicle on the Base. 8 There was a discussion about ownership. 9 The discussion of ownership obviously 10 upset the Natives. Possibly want a 11 meeting with superiors. Korosec 12 indicated that that could be arranged. 13 He informed me that there were -- that 14 they're eight (8) ERT members in the 15 area. 16 Grand Bend officers were standing by 17 the Park campers for the most part. 18 The Park was vacant and the undercover 19 trailer was in the process of being 20 moved out and that there will be 21 continued ERT patrol for tonight." 22 Now, that seems largely consistent with 23 your testimony of what occurred -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- that afternoon?
371 A: Yes. 2 Q: However, there's no mention of you 3 mentioning a gun butt -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- in the trunk so I want to be fair 6 to you and see if that and -- and give that to you and 7 see if that changes your evidence at all. 8 A: No, it doesn't. I'm sure I told him 9 of that afterwards and in -- in the scribe notes later on 10 it's -- it's confirmed in the -- in the scribe notes -- 11 it says it was confirmed a gun was seen in the trunk of a 12 car or something to that effect. 13 Q: Yes, and that is in Exhibit P-426 -- 14 A: So that tells me -- 15 Q: -- at page 5. 16 A: -- I must have told him at -- I'm 17 sure I told him at this phone call and it's confirmed in 18 the scribe -- it's confirmed that he was aware of that. 19 Q: That's your -- your interpretation of 20 the -- 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: Are you aware of anybody else you may 23 have told about the supposed gun butt? 24 A: I don't recall if I -- if I had 25 mentioned it to the other -- to other ERT officers that
381 were working that day with me. I'm not sure. 2 Q: Okay. I want to move forward a 3 little bit now on September the 4th. And you gave some 4 testimony in your evidence in-chief, on last Thursday I 5 guess was when we were here, about flares that were 6 supposedly thrown at officers. Do you recall that? 7 A: Yes. Yes. 8 Q: Now do you recall the size of the 9 flares? 10 A: They looked to me to be what we have 11 in -- in the trunks of -- of the cruisers for -- for 12 accident scenes, highway flares. That's what I -- what I 13 saw them to be. They'd be twelve (12) inches long, some 14 -- something like that. 15 Q: Okay. So in your -- they're the kind 16 of things you could pick up and move around and do that 17 kind of stuff even after they were thrown? 18 A: Pardon me? 19 Q: They're -- they're fairly large is 20 what you were saying at the end of the day? 21 A: Yes. And then they -- they burn down 22 as they're -- as they're being used. 23 Q: Now again, I want to be fair to you 24 because we've heard evidence from several of the 25 occupiers about what was thrown at the officers that
391 evening. 2 And three (3) occupiers in particular, 3 Wesley George, David George and Kevin Simon, I can give 4 specific dates and citations if they're required, 5 specifically say that what they were throwing were 6 firecrackers that were about the size of water -- of pop 7 bottle caps or water bottle caps. 8 A: They were not firecrackers. 9 Q: And you believe they were not 10 firecrackers? 11 A: They were not firecrackers. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Have you ever heard the term 'strobe 16 firecrackers' before? 17 A: Pardon me? 18 Q: Have you ever heard the term 'strobe 19 firecrackers' before? 20 A: No. 21 Q: So you're not familiar with what 22 those are? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you remember what colour of the 25 light of the firecrackers get the -- the supposed fares -
401 - flares gave off? 2 A: I believe they were put to be -- to 3 be white because the ones that we use are -- we just use 4 are -- we used to use they were orange but they were 5 white and they burn. There was certainly no popping 6 sound like a firecracker would make or anything. They 7 were -- they were burning. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Would it change your evidence at all 12 if I refer to them as 'fireworks' instead of 13 'firecrackers'? 14 A: Fireworks? 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: No they -- they appear to be highway 17 -- the type of flares that we use on -- like accident 18 scenes and whatnot. They -- you know, they just burned 19 and it wasn't a -- a fireworks that would glow or shoot 20 off anything. They landed on the ground and they burned. 21 Q: And they just gave off light? 22 A: Yes, and heat. 23 Q: I'd like to move ahead now to the 24 evening of September the 6th. And this is Exhibit P-1317 25 which is a recording that you indicated that you may have
411 heard. 2 And particular the line I'm interested in 3 -- this is at -- in the transcript at page 209 of 4 Thursday's evidence. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Mr. Korosec, if you'd like to look at 9 a copy. I'm only going to refer to one line of this but 10 if you want a copy of it, it should be in your blue 11 folder right there beside you. 12 A: Let me know what it is and if I have 13 to see it I'll ask for it. 14 Q: What it is it's the radio 15 transmission about what sounded like one (1) gunshot. Do 16 you recall that? 17 It's a track at 18:27 on the evening of 18 September the 6th. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Why don't we just give 20 him Exhibit P-1317 now? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1317? 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes, it is Exhibit 23 P-1317. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25
421 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a very 4 short one. 5 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: It's a very short 6 one. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 11 Q: Now, what I'm focussing on is the -- 12 the line of: 13 "Just heard what sounded like one (1) 14 gun shot and if it was -- it was -- 15 it's a small calibre." 16 Now, as you indicated, you often heard 17 that there were hunters in the area and Mr. Millar took 18 you through a whole bunch of issues with that this 19 morning about hunters and guns and that kind of thing. 20 Do you recall that this morning? 21 A: Well, I don't know if there was any 22 active hunting going on in the area at the time, but we 23 did talk about hunters, yes. 24 Q: What I'm going to is whether or not 25 this action was a gunshot and whether or not it was
431 actually significant. 2 I have a -- I can take you through all of 3 the notes. What I'm going to do is I'm going to ask that 4 -- were you familiar with the people who would have been 5 -- I'll try this again. 6 Are you familiar with the people who would 7 have been at Checkpoint Alpha that evening -- 8 A: Would I -- 9 Q: -- in light of your role with the -- 10 with the policing situation? 11 A: Yeah, I didn't know exactly who was 12 at what checkpoint; that was up for the ERT leaders to 13 decide who was where. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Can I ask that Exhibit P-1284 be 18 given to the Witness, please? 19 For the reference of My Friends, this is 20 the guide that has been prepared by the OPP with respect 21 to the people who were at the various checkpoints at the 22 evening -- on the evening of September 6th and September 23 7th. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
441 Q: Do you have it, sir? 2 A: Yes, I have it. 3 Q: And if you look under (a), the 4 obvious person, given the time of this -- when this 5 occurred, would be the day shift. So, I'm curious as to 6 whether or not this refreshes your memory at all with 7 respect to the people who would have been at the 8 checkpoint that evening. No? 9 A: No, it doesn't. 10 Q: All right. Now, I can take you 11 through the various notes and statements of each of these 12 -- each of these individuals, but it appears that only 13 one (1) person has made mention of this gunshot. 14 So it does not seem to be -- would you 15 accept that? If you like, I could take you through each 16 of the notes and the statements. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes...? 19 MS. KAREN JONES: This witness cannot say 20 what other people put in their notes or what they put in 21 their notes or why they put in -- its notes, so I don't 22 see how this is going to assist you. 23 And in addition, it's clear from the phone 24 calls, that two (2) different people reported calling in, 25 hearing the gunshot.
451 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 2 what I'm suggesting is whether or not this was actually 3 significant in the grand scheme of things or whether or 4 it was viewed that way. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 6 how you can -- well, I understand what you're saying, but 7 I'm not sure how this Witness can help you. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Part of the issue 9 is that most of these officers, is my understanding, are 10 not going to be called, so the question is, is where is 11 the appropriate place to be able to do this in the grand 12 scheme of things. 13 I think I can do this very quickly. I'm 14 trying to -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 All right. 17 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- shorten it out, 18 rather than have to go through the pile of -- the pile of 19 notes which is sitting on my table, in order to do that. 20 But -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I -- 22 if you ask the right questions, then perhaps we can 23 shorten it. Go ahead. 24 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Hmm hmm. 25
461 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 4 Q: So it appears that only one (1) 5 person has -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: See, I'm not 7 sure that's a good way to start the question. I mean, 8 I -- 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's try it 11 again. You can put it to him. You can put it to him the 12 way -- 13 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you think 15 it is. 16 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And if it's 18 not accurate then Ms. Jones or somebody will indicate 19 that. 20 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 25 Q: Given that the -- given that this
471 only seems to reported in one (1) person's notes is -- I 2 see the Commissioner shaking his head. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 4 having difficulty with the way you're phrasing the 5 question. 6 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Hmm hmm. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I mean, we 8 would have to go through it all. If that's your 9 understanding, if you're summarizing the evidence and 10 you're putting that to him as your understanding of the 11 evidence, if it's inaccurate I say somebody will indicate 12 it. But I think that's what you're trying to do, you're 13 trying to put your interpretation of the evidence to him. 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'm trying to 15 summarize the evidence is what -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 17 trying to summarize it and as long as you do it 18 accurately -- 19 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Hmm hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I don't 21 think anybody will object. 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I -- I gave a 23 document notice -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- with all of the
481 -- with all of the -- with all of the notes that refer to 2 these individuals so I can summarize the evidence this 3 way. 4 From those notes there is no reference to 5 a gunshot except in one (1) statement. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 7 Then ask the question. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 11 Q: Does that provide any information to 12 you about the significance of the supposed gunshot? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: And -- and again, Mr. 14 Commissioner, how can this Witness answer a question like 15 that? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm having a 17 hard time understanding that, Ms. Jones. I'm not sure 18 that that's a piece of information that this Witness can 19 offer and would be in any way of assistance to us. 20 I mean, I don't see it, Mr. Alexander. 21 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Well, perhaps I'll 22 leave it for final argument then with -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For final 24 argument it's quite appropriate. 25
491 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 2 Q: There is one (1) other thing I did 3 want to mention with respect to this. 4 In several of the notes it mentions that 5 people were on patrol on the beach during the time in 6 question yet those people do not appear to mention this 7 gunshot. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, the-- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: -- officers who were on 11 the beach are the ones who radio in -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: -- hearing the gunshot. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You just 15 have to ask this Witness things that he knows and that he 16 can say. You're trying to draw links that may be 17 appropriate for your argument but not in questions for 18 this Witness. 19 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'm not sure that 20 the -- that the -- that it's clear from the radio 21 transmissions that it was the officer from the beach. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 23 don't want to get into the argument about what the 24 evidence is. 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: No, no, but I --
501 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's for-- 2 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- I do want to 3 respond to that statement. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 5 if it assists you're looking at the September 6th, 1995, 6 18:27 hour transcript of the logger tape and it clearly 7 identifies the -- the officers who called in as 2464. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 9 MS. KAREN JONES: And it's clear from 10 other transcripts that those are the officers who were on 11 the beach. 12 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Well, my apologies, 13 Mr. Commissioner, I missed that. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it's just -- 16 Exhibit P-111 is a copy of a transmission at 19:39 from 17 Messrs Spencer and Weverink; they're at car number 246 -- 18 their call number is 2464 and there's another -- they 19 were down at the beach and -- at the bottom of Army Camp 20 Road. 21 There was another transmission that I just 22 don't have it here where they said -- they asked if they 23 could leave because there were people coming around their 24 car. And that was -- and -- at 18:27; it's 2464 that 25 reports in Exhibit 1317.
511 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then Alpha reports 3 that it heard the same thing. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 That's the problem with putting this sort of a 6 generalized statement as a prelude to your question. 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: No, and that was -- 8 I apologize. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: That was my 11 misunderstanding -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- of the -- of the 14 number on that one. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 19 Q: Mr. Korosec, do you remember from 20 your evidence in-chief when you were providing some 21 information to Mr. Millar about why you don't want to be 22 chatting too much on the radio. I believe your -- the 23 evidence that you gave on Thursday, April the 6th at page 24 48 was: "You don't want to be doing too much 25 chatting on the radio especially in a
521 situation where you want to be -- you 2 know, where you don't want to give 3 yourself away or because the guys at 4 the time just had the portable radio 5 and that it's very quiet out there. 6 You want to maintain communication to a 7 bare minimum." 8 Now, I'm trying to understand -- now I'm 9 trying to understand, is one of the other reasons for 10 this the possibility that other people may be listening 11 in on the radio frequency and have scanners and know 12 what's going on? 13 A: No. We had how many officers on -- 14 on one (1) channel. I mean, we had two (2) ERT teams 15 down there and -- and whoever else was in the tactical 16 channels that was called. So you might have, I don't 17 know how many we had, you might have twenty (20) some 18 officers all on the same frequency. There was only one 19 (1) frequency for this. 20 So and -- and depending on -- on the 21 situation and what's -- what's going on -- on at the 22 time, you want to maintain some radio discipline so that 23 you're not unnecessarily talking while someone else is 24 trying to -- maybe something serious is going on. 25 So it's a matter of all these people
531 sharing -- it's like sharing one (1) phone, you know. 2 You want to -- once someone talks in the radio and keys 3 their mic, it blocks everybody else out from -- from 4 communicating. So that's the main reason for it. 5 Q: I'd like to take you then to Tab 25 6 of your brief which is Exhibit P-1315 and is a 7 conversation between yourself and Lima 2 at 16:38 hours 8 radio transmission. 9 And this appears to be a discussion about 10 sending some people down to the area, arrest them for 11 possession of stolen property because there's MNR lights 12 on there and then the next line on the back of the second 13 page, so this is the fourth line down, second "SK": 14 "So don't do that. Try as much as you 15 can not to do it over the air." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So again I'm asking you, it appears 18 from reading this that the concern is, is that the 19 occupiers may overhear what the officers are intending to 20 do. 21 A: In that case, yes. 22 Q: And so your concerned about ensuring 23 that you don't lose what's going on and that they don't 24 have an idea of what you're up to at that particular 25 point?
541 A: For the -- for the reason is that if 2 -- if some of the occupiers hear what's -- what's going 3 on down there, they may get drawn to that area and we're 4 going to have -- we're going to have a bigger 5 confrontation, or trying to avoid a confrontation and -- 6 and do it as quickly and safely as possible. 7 So there's the reason where -- where a 8 scanner -- someone's scanning it, you wouldn't want it 9 done over the air. 10 Q: I'm going to move ahead a little bit 11 more now and focus on the timeframe of the evening of 12 September the 6th. Mr. Millar took you through this in a 13 fair amount of detail and I don't expect to do that 14 again. 15 But what I want to do is, I want to make 16 sure I understand the series of events that occurred in a 17 very short timeframe and just make sure I've got it 18 right. 19 So as I understand it, on the evening of 20 September the 6th around 7:30, that was around the shift 21 change between the 3 and 6 ERT and the 1 and 2 ERT; does 22 that sound right? 23 A: Correct. The -- the night shift had 24 gone out and the day shift was just getting back to 25 Forest.
551 Q: And when you sent off the 3 and 6 ERT 2 that evening, you had no expectation they would be needed 3 until tomorrow -- the next morning shift. 4 A: That's correct because in fact I had 5 to -- once I was told to have them stick around, I had -- 6 there was a radio transmission where some of them were 7 going back to their hotel or wherever or to eat and I had 8 to call them back. 9 Q: And I will get to that but I want -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- to make sure I've got the 12 chronology and the timing down specifically on this. 13 A: It's approximately 7:30. 14 Q: Okay. And you yourself were 15 preparing to leave and go off at that time because 16 there's -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- no reason -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And so at that point there was 21 nothing particularly going on at that point, at 7:30? 22 A: Not that I was aware of anyway, I 23 don't think. 24 Q: And then at 7:54 approximately is 25 when you've got the radio call from Mark Wright about
561 people down in the corner -- down in the sandy parking 2 lot. Does that sound correct? 3 A: I won't -- I won't dispute that. I - 4 - I don't have those in front of me. 5 Q: Okay. Then at 8:02 he speaks to you 6 and radio -- via radio, I believe it is. No, sorry, he 7 speaks to you in the command post; that was his evidence, 8 and he wanted you to hold down the ERT day shift. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then Mark Wright proceeded to 11 give Linton, yourself and other people in the command 12 post, his report of what had occurr -- what he observed 13 at the sandy parking lot. 14 A: At what time was that? 15 Q: That would have been just shortly 16 after 8:02. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Again, this was -- 21 A: Yeah, look -- I'm looking at the 22 scribe notes, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And then after that occurred 24 at 8:08, or 20:08, Linton decides to call in TRU. 25 A: Yes.
571 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And then you implemented the decision 5 -- then you talked about the radio calls, so 20:19 is 6 when you called out to call back the day shift? 7 A: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And then your evidence was at 20:26, 12 when the tape was played, that Lacroix is on his way up 13 to do these guys -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- is that was the decision to do the 16 CMU at that point. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So it appears between 7:54 -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry. Mr. 20 Commissioner, I think this Witness' evidence was the call 21 about Wade Lacroix was that Wade Lacroix was coming in 22 for -- to lead or to handle or to be -- to do the CMU. 23 His evidence was not that a decision was 24 made at that time for the CMU to be engaged. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. I
581 think that's right. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Just to be clear. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 4 that's correct. 5 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: That's fine. It 6 doesn't -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- effect where I'm 9 going with this. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 12 Q: So it would appear by 8:26, even 13 though the decision had not been made to engage the CMU, 14 apparently, although -- well, it appears that all -- the 15 OPP had mobilized all of the resources it had available 16 to them at that point, including four (4) ERT teams and 17 the TRU team and was prepared to go into -- and had the 18 resources prepared to go into a CMU formation. 19 A: Well, I -- all I was told was when 20 the day shift -- to hold them back, a possible -- I think 21 it was possible CMU function and my -- my comments to 22 Inspector Linton was, Well, if you're going to have the 23 CMU here, you need a CMU trained incident commander. 24 Q: But everybody was there by 8:26 in 25 the evening, by 20:26 in the evening.
591 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, that's -- the 2 call is at -- it's Exhibit P-1155. It's at 20:25 hours 3 and you have to add seven (7) minutes, so it's 20:32 4 hours. It's at Tab 31 of the brief. That's when the 5 call where -- the call where it says: 6 "Lacroix's on his way up to do these 7 guys." 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: The point that I'm 9 getting at -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 11 the point, but it -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Commissioner, one 15 more correction. It's clear also from the calls that 16 were played, was that TRU was told to return to Pinery, 17 and you can also see that indicated in the scribe notes. 18 So they weren't in attendance at that time. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Regardless, it 24 appears that a great mobile -- a large mobilization had 25 occurred by that point.
601 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but -- 2 THE WITNESS: Whether you call it 3 immobilization or people were told to stick around. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 6 Q: And this had all occurred 7 approximately within half an hour from when Mark Wright 8 had called in about the -- what he had observed in the 9 sandy parking lot. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not a 11 question. It's not evidence from this Witness. You can 12 make that argument when you come to make it. 13 I mean, you're kind of -- you're not 14 asking questions I think is what I'm suggesting, I mean. 15 I mean, if that's a fact, it's on the -- 16 are you asking him to confirm that? I'm not sure -- 17 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'm asking him to 18 confirm it. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: See, I'm not 20 sure that -- well, I don't know if he can. I guess if he 21 can, he will; if he can't, he won't. 22 I'm just finding that you're kind of 23 reciting the evidence as you see it now, right? 24 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Well, the issue I'm 25 trying to do is I'm trying to get this half hour
611 chronology clear because Mr. Korosec -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- was in the 4 Command Post at this point. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- yes, but 6 from his perspective only. 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Hmm hmm. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's the 9 Witness. There's events that occur in that half hour 10 that he's not a party too or not -- 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: No, but he's 12 confirmed -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- that -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 16 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- there was a 17 mobilization by 8:26 and that the radio call -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he 19 hasn't confirmed that. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He didn't read it the 21 term, 'mobilization'. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, you're 23 using a term -- 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And if -- if the 25 Witness doesn't agree with the term --
621 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Counsel shouldn't 3 then -- you know he keeps using the term. It doesn't -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- make it a 6 mobilization -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 8 right. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- because it's a -- 10 Counsel uses it. The Witness said, If you mean holding 11 back people from the day shift -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which is 13 his -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- that's what we did. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's his 16 evidence and that's exactly what I mean. You're putting 17 your spin on it as it were now. The time for that is 18 when you make your argument. All you can do is ask this 19 Witness questions; get him to answer the questions as 20 best he can. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 23 Q: So the time between when all the 24 people were held back and when the radio call occurred 25 with respect to Mark Wright was about half an hour?
631 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 2 think... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 7 started -- well, you're talking between 8:02, right? Is 8 8:02 your starting point? 9 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: It might be 7:54. 10 7:54 is when it originally happened. 8:02, yeah. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, the first -- the 12 radio transmission from Mark Wright to -- was at 19:54 13 hours. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, the question 16 again was? 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 19 Q: I'm talking about the timeframe 20 between when you gathered people, I believe was the term 21 you used, or held people back which was approximately 22 8:26 or approximately 8:30 versus the radio transmission 23 that Mark Wright came in; it was approximately thirty 24 (30) -- about half an hour? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How does his
641 evidence help? We could do the math. We could add that 2 up. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you with 7 him? Are you able to say -- 8 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it was 10 approximately a half hour? 11 THE WITNESS: What time does Mark Wright 12 call me at, 19:54? 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 19:54. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 16 Q: 19:54 is the initial radio call, is 17 the evidence we've heard. 18 A: To hold people back? 19 Q: No, to -- the report with respect to 20 what he observed at the sandy parking lot. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At five (5) 22 to 8:00. 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Roughly. 25
651 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 2 Q: Roughly. 3 A: Okay. And you want to know the 4 time... 5 Q: That it was approximate. I'm asking 6 you to confirm that it was approximately half an hour 7 between that radio call -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can do the 9 math myself. 10 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I really 12 can. I think any of us can, with respect. I don't think 13 we need the Witness' testimony regarding the time that's 14 expired between one point on the clock and another. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 17 Q: Now, one of the things that happened 18 during that timeframe is Linton called in TRU. Do you 19 recall that? 20 A: I -- I recall it from reading the 21 scribe notes, not from rec -- my own recollection. 22 Q: We've heard evidence that he called 23 in TRU to make arrests. Was that your understanding as 24 to the reason why TRU was called in? 25 A: I don't know.
661 Q: Could I have Exhibit P-444B placed 2 before the Witness please? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Mr. Korosec, if I could ask you to 7 turn please to Tab 52. This is a conversation between 8 Dale Linton and John Carson at 20:15 and we've been 9 advised to add seven (7) minutes to that so it occurred 10 at 20:22. 11 And if you turn to the back of the second 12 page it says: 13 "LINTON: Well, TRU is probably going 14 to end up going and -- and doing an 15 arrest." 16 Does that refresh your memory as to your 17 understanding as to whether TRU was called in to do an 18 arrest? 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner -- 20 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'm just seeing if 21 it refreshes his memory. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 23 minute, just a minute. 24 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: -- I object. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
671 MS. KAREN JONES: In the first place, it 2 seems to me, in order to lay the foundation, you need to 3 ask this Witness whether or not he ever hears the call, 4 because absent that, how can he comment or how can he say 5 anything about a conversation that two (2) other people 6 have. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is 8 between Linton and Carson. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: That's right, and -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that's the concern. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'm 13 trying to follow it and I'm having -- 14 MS. KAREN JONES: So the foundation has 15 to be -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: -- Did you hear the 18 call? If he doesn't hear the call, how can he comment on 19 it? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's a 21 conversation between Linton and Carson; I just want to be 22 sure that's what you're asking him about. 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I do understand 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.
681 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: However, Mr. 2 Korosec is the one who did make the initial call to Mr. 3 Skinner about calling in TRU, so this is -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: To Mr. whom? 5 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: To Mr. Skinner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: About calling in 8 TRU. This is the reason why I am putting this to him to 9 see if this assists him in refreshing his memory about 10 why TRU was -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, how 12 can a conversation that he may not have heard between 13 Linton and Carson refresh his memory? 14 If there's a fact that you have that you 15 want to put to him that may help him or information or 16 evidence, to help him refresh his memory, that may help. 17 But asking him to comment on a phone call between two (2) 18 people that he may not have heard, how could that refresh 19 his memory? 20 I don't think that's a question that he 21 can answer. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER:
691 Q: Mr. Korosec, I'm going to take a step 2 back now, and move on to a different area. And I'm going 3 to ask you to turn your mind to some meetings that 4 occurred on the day of September 5th and September the 5 6th. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: To start off, I'd like you -- to turn 10 you to Tab 17 of your -- of Commission Counsel's binder. 11 This is Exhibit P-426, a copy of the scribe notes, and 12 I'd you to turn to page 25, now. 13 Mr. Millar covered this a little -- a 14 little bit and I'm going to cover it -- get a couple of 15 key things for each of these things, just to be clear. 16 A: It's page 25? 17 Q: Page 25 is where -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- I'm going to start. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, at the top of page 25, I believe 24 you were taken to the issue that... 25
701 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: It says: 4 "Staff Sergeant Lacroix has been in 5 contact with Marcel Beaubien, local 6 Member of Parliament. He's updating 7 the Premier on the situation." 8 Now, you indicated, I believe, that you 9 didn't -- you didn't recall that statement? 10 A: No, I don't recall that statement. 11 Q: However, if I look at a couple -- 12 this appears to be a briefing, if you look at page 24, 13 and it has your name among those present at the meeting. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So it would appear likely -- so, do 16 you believe it would have been likely that you would have 17 heard that statement? 18 A: I don't recall but it -- I was 19 obviously present at the meeting, for some parts of it. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Now, if I move ahead again to page 38 24 or page -- page 38, and the page right before it at page 25 37 at 15:07, starting there. It appears that this
711 section of the scribe notes is again a meeting. 2 Does that seem fair? Looking at the entry 3 starting at 15:07 on page 37. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then it goes until 15:52 on page 6 38. And that again appears to be a meeting, correct? 7 A: Pardon me? 8 Q: That again appears to be a meeting. 9 A: Yeah, it appears so. 10 Q: And again if we look at your -- one 11 of the entries, the second last -- the second last entry 12 on page 38, your name is there. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you're providing information on 15 that. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now I'm going to hand up some 18 documents here. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And looking at the first page, these 23 are excerpts from some things I'm going to take you to 24 and Mr. Millar has advised that this is in your -- in 25 your brief. I wasn't aware of that but I'll stick to
721 this because there's only a couple of pages I intend to 2 refer you to. 3 At page 438, this is the handwritten 4 scribe notes for the partic -- for the same time. It 5 says 4:38 in the corner, this is Exhibit P-427. And this 6 again seems to be from that meeting. 7 And if you go to the last entry on the 8 page: 9 "JOHN CARSON: Premier's no different 10 treatment from anybody else." 11 Which didn't appear to make into the 12 scribe notes. 13 Now given that you were -- you appear to 14 be at this meeting, correct? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: You would have likely heard this 17 statement. 18 A: I may have. 19 Q: Given that it was a comment that was 20 made by the Incident Commander, is that not something 21 that you would have paid attention to in a meeting of 22 this sort? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25
731 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If I can ask you to turn ahead in 4 your binder to page 40 of Exhibit P-426. This is Inquiry 5 Document 1002419 which is the typed scribe notes. 6 This again appears to be a meeting. It 7 starts on page 39 at 16:45 and continues to page 41, 8 correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And we again see your name at the top 11 of page 40, mentioned, and giving information. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: So you were present at this meeting? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And if we go down to the second last 16 paragraph on page 40. 17 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles 18 that Marcel Beaubien has contacted the 19 Premier. There's to be a press release 20 by the Solicitor General stating that 21 this is not an Indian issue, it is an 22 MNR and a Provincial issue." 23 Do you recall that statement being made 24 A: No. 25 Q: Would you have likely heard that
741 statement? 2 A: I may have, yes. 3 Q: Again, this appears to be a statement 4 by the Incident Commander. You would have likely paid 5 attention to the statement by the Incident Commander in a 6 meeting of this sort? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: If you look at the bottom of page 41 9 where it says 16:07 hours. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It should be 11 18:07. 12 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I was about to get 13 to that. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 17 Q: We've been advised that that is a 18 typo and that should actually be 18:07 hours. And again, 19 this appears to be a meeting that goes for the next 20 couple pages. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Correct? And again, you're mentioned
751 in the meeting giving information. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So you would have been present in the 4 meeting? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And if I ask you to turn to the 7 second page I handed up to you, which is page 400 -- 8 marked page 450, of Exhibit P-427 which is the 9 handwritten scribe notes, Inquiry document number 10 1000152. 11 The middle of the page we have an entry of 12 the scribe by John Carson. 13 "Heat from political side. Made strong 14 comments in the House." 15 Do you recall that statement being made in 16 this meeting? 17 A: No, I don't. Not -- 18 Q: Did you -- 19 A: No independent recollect -- 20 recollection of it. 21 Q: Would you have likely heard that 22 statement in this meeting? 23 A: I may have. 24 Q: Given that this was a statement by 25 the Incident Commander, would you have likely paid
761 attention to a statement like this in the meeting? 2 A: I may have, yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: If you turn to the next page, which 7 is Exhibit P-1008, Inquiry document number 1007879. This 8 is an excerpt of Ed Vervoort's notes of the same meeting. 9 If you go down to the last entry, right 10 before September 6th: 11 "Lots of political pressure. Strong in 12 House comments by Premier/Sol Gen." 13 Do you recall that statement being made at 14 the meeting? 15 A: No. 16 Q: But you would have been present at 17 the meeting? 18 A: Was he at this meeting? 19 Q: We understand that he was present at 20 this meeting. 21 A: He was? 22 Q: We -- we understand that he has -- he 23 was present at this meeting. 24 A: Oh. 25 Q: His notes indicate that he was
771 present at this meeting. The evidence is that he was 2 present at this meeting -- 3 A: I don't recall it; I may have heard 4 it. 5 Q: Okay. Given that John Carson was 6 making the comment previously about strong comments in 7 the House, does that assist you at all with who may have 8 made this statement? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No? If I can move ahead to page 62 11 and 63, please, of the typewritten scribe notes, Inquiry 12 document number 1002419, Exhibit P-426. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Again, at the top of page 62, at 17 14:27 hours it indicates that this is a briefing. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Your name is indicated as giving 20 information, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So you were present at this meeting? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
781 Q: If we go down to the bottom of the 2 page 62, going on to 63. 3 "Concerns raised that the longer it 4 goes, more may be around." 5 Do you have any recollection of that 6 statement being made? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Do you have any recollection of who 9 may have made that statement or where that information 10 may have come from? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. If you can go to the last page 13 of the package I gave you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Exhibit P-536, these are the notes of 18 Julie Jai for the Interministerial Committee, Inquiry 19 document number 1012579. This is page 3 of the September 20 6th notes. 21 If we go down to about a third of the page 22 from the bottom. 23 "DEB: Premier feels the longer they 24 occupy it, the more support they'll 25 get. He wants them out in a day or two
791 (2)." 2 Does that assist you in where you may have 3 received this information? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 5 Perschy...? 6 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Commissioner, this 7 Witness wasn't at this meeting -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 9 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: -- and there has been, 10 as I've mentioned before -- I've objected to this before. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: There has been 13 evidence that the police wanted to contain the area. 14 We've had conversations between Superintendent Parkin and 15 Inspector Carson dealing with concerns about the ability 16 to access the Park. 17 The issues been raised that this Witness 18 spoke to -- to concerns by ERT members with respect to 19 access to the Park from the beach. It was raised by a 20 number of people. 21 This question seems to imply a source, and 22 as I've said, this Witness wasn't even at the -- the 23 meeting to which My Friend refers to. On both of those 24 basis I object to the question, it's simply not fair to 25 the Witness to suggest that there's a particular source.
801 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 Yes, Mr. Millar...? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend can make his 4 argument but this -- this Witness can't -- can't answer 5 the question. Firstly, he had indicated he -- he doesn't 6 remember hearing what was at page 62 and 63, but I don't 7 think he would disagree with hearing. He couldn't 8 remember who said it. 9 And he wasn't at this meeting and it's -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So this 11 can't help refresh his memory. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It can't help refresh 13 his memory and it can't assist him as to what happened at 14 a meeting that he wasn't at. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 16 that's right, Mr. Alexander. 17 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'll move on. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll move 19 on? 20 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'll move on. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 25 Q: Now if I recall your evidence from
811 yesterday, you indicated that -- actually let me try that 2 again. 3 You indicated that you were aware who Ron 4 Fox was, correct? 5 A: Of Ron Fox, yes. 6 Q: Yes. Were you aware of the Blockade 7 Committee; what was known as the Blockade Committee? 8 A: I don't recall that. 9 Q: No. Do you -- you don't recall that 10 name or...? 11 A: I don't recall a Blockade Committee 12 from my independent recollections, other than from what I 13 read in the scribe notes. 14 Q: Do you recall any information coming 15 down, aside from what I've pointed down? 16 A: Pardon me? 17 Q: Never mind. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: I'll move on. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's coming 21 up to the time where I think I'm going to need a break, 22 so I'm going to ask if there's a convenient part or are 23 you near the end? 24 You indicated between an hour and two (2). 25 You're still under and hour but I'm just in need of a
821 break. So if you would find one soon that would be 2 helpful. 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I only have a few 4 more questions -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 6 Then let's continue. 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- and then I'm 8 done. So I'm in your hands. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's 10 continue until you're finished then. 11 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 16 Q: So having gone through those five (5) 17 instances, there appears to have been four (4) instances 18 where you and the others -- and others in the Command 19 Post received information about the views of the Premier. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 21 I didn't hear the last part of the question but others 22 did. What was the last part of the question, please? 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: About the views of 24 the Premier. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About the
831 views of the Premier. All right now -- 2 MS. KAREN JONES: In -- in fairness to 3 this Witness, he has said he doesn't recall hearing them. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. He 5 doesn't recall any of it. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: He can look at the 7 scribe notes. He doesn't have any recollection of it at 8 all. He may have been there -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He may have 10 been there. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- he may have heard 12 it, but he can't tell you -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He may have 14 heard it but he has no recollection. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- one way or the 16 other. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 18 how you can draw the conclusion or the summary statement 19 that you just put. If you have a question for him, fine. 20 But if you want to put a summary statement, it better be 21 accurate. That's the problem. 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. I'll move 23 on. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
841 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 2 Q: Now you've indicated you were not 3 able to recall the statements that I put to you, correct? 4 A: Which statements are we talking 5 about? 6 Q: The ones in the handwritten notes 7 that we just went through, a series of four (4) to five 8 (5) statements. 9 A: No, I do not recall. 10 Q: You don't recall any of those, 11 correct? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Are you able to recall any instance 14 where you received information about the views of the 15 Premier and the policing situation? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Are you absolutely certain today, 18 under oath, that the information that you likely heard 19 had no affect consciously or subconsciously on you? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 21 he says he doesn't recall. He -- 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: He's -- he has -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That he 24 likely heard. 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: He did say --
851 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That he may 2 have heard. 3 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: -- He said he -- he 4 did say he -- I -- I -- made a point of asking him would 5 he have likely heard them and would he have likely paid 6 attention to it? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He can't say 8 that he heard it. I don't see how he could say whether 9 or not it influenced him. It's twice removed. I just 10 don't see how he can answer that question. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually I think I 12 asked the question and you told me the same thing. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A similar question. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just don't 16 see how he can answer the question. If he heard it, if 17 he recalls it then it's a different story. He doesn't 18 recall it. 19 He may have heard it but he may not have 20 so I don't see how he can be asked whether it influenced 21 him because he may not have heard it. It's a question 22 that I don't think his answer is helpful anyway in any 23 event. 24 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes, to be clear 25 the reason I was asking is, is he did say he may have
861 heard it -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, he did 3 say that; he may have heard but I mean that's as high as 4 you can get. 5 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Well -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If he heard 7 it then it may have influenced it. He may not have heard 8 it. I mean, I think if he says he may have heard it you 9 can infer that he may not have heard it. I don't know 10 what you can infer and I don't know what you can conclude 11 from it. Anyway, I don't think his answer -- 12 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I think we'll leave 13 -- I think we'll leave the remainder for final argument 14 in that case. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In final 16 argument you can make that argument that he did say he 17 may have heard it. 18 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: And those are my 19 questions. Thank you, Mr. Korosec. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much, Mr. Alexander. We'll take a morning break 23 now. 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 25 for fifteen (15) minutes.
871 2 --- Upon recessing at 11:25 a.m. 3 --- Upon resuming at 11:45 a.m. 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 6 resumed. Please be seated. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay. Good 11 morning, barely, still. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Barely. 13 Good morning, Mr. Rosenthal. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner. 15 When I was cross-examining Mark Dew there 16 was a document that I was asked him about and -- somewhat 17 extensively and didn't make it an exhibit and I spoke to 18 your Counsel Mr. Millar, he suggested I make an exhibit 19 now -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- if I may. It 22 was the affidavit that he had sworn with respect to the 23 appeal of Kenneth Deane. He was examined about it on 24 April 4th, 2006, beginning at about page 239 of the 25 transcript.
881 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 2 remember that. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And it was Tab 34 4 of his documents at the time and it's Inquiry Document 5 Number 2005315. It's headed, Court of Appeal for 6 Ontario, Her Majesty the Queen and Kenneth Deane 7 Affidavit. And it says, "I, Mark Dew" and so on. 8 So I should like to make that an exhibit, 9 if I may. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1332, Your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1332? 13 THE REGISTRAR: 1332. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1332: Document Number 1005315. 16 Mark Dew's Affidavit re. Ken 17 Deane, August 05, 1998. 18 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 20 Commissioner. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: Good morning, sir. 24 A: Good morning. My name is Peter 25 Rosenthal. I'm one of the Counsel for a group of Stoney
891 Point people under the name Aazhoodena and George Family 2 Group. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now, sir, I'd like to begin by asking 7 you about your meeting with Ken Deane on August 31st, 8 1995. You -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- recall you told us about that? 11 And you told us something about the nature of that 12 meeting. 13 Why Ken Deane? Why was he chosen to meet 14 with you? 15 A: I don't know. 16 Q: What was his title at the time or his 17 special role within TRU that had him meeting with you? 18 A: I believe he was an Acting Sergeant 19 in TRU at the time. 20 Q: And do you know who arranged the 21 meeting between you and Officer Deane? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You don't recall how it came to be he 24 that you met with? 25 A: I don't know why he was selected, if
901 that's what you're asking. 2 Q: And did you have the understanding 3 you were meeting with him as a representative of TRU, 4 that he was representing TRU in the meeting with you? 5 A: Well, certainly that's the unit he 6 was -- he was assigned to. 7 Q: Was this because of his own special 8 interest in the -- in the scene or because he'd been 9 required to report back to TRU? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. -- 11 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 12 object. This Witness has already said he doesn't know -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 14 know. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- why Ken Deane was. 16 And he can't speculate and it's not helpful -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: -- about why Officer 19 Deane -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He can't get 21 into Deane's head. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- would have been 23 there? 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 25 fine.
911 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 2 he can't speculate. I'm not asking him to speculate, 3 but -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 5 asking him -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I can probe a 7 little bit further in a question of this type. The fact 8 that he says he doesn't know, doesn't mean I can't try to 9 approach it from a different angle to try and get some 10 information here. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can try, 12 but you can't get into Ken Deane's head, unfortunately. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Taking your mind back to your meeting 18 with Officer Deane on that occasion, you told us that you 19 -- that you didn't know if he'd been down there at all 20 and you gave him the lay of the land and so on. 21 Do you recall, did he take any notes? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: And you don't recall if he indicated 24 in any way whether he was going to report that 25 information to anyone else or whether it was just for his
921 own use? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now, we had evidence from P/C Mark 7 Dew that Officer Deane visited him at some point while he 8 was involved in an undercover operation in the Park. 9 Were you aware of that occurring, sir? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Now, you told Mr. Millar, I believe, 12 that you played no role in setting up the underground 13 operation with respect to the campers, right? 14 A: The undercover operation? 15 Q: Yes. You played no role in that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: But you were aware that there were 18 undercover officers? 19 A: There was campers in the Park. Yeah, 20 undercover -- 21 Q: Undercover officers -- 22 A: -- officers in the Park. 23 Q: -- posing as campers in the -- 24 A: Yes, correct. 25 Q: -- Park?
931 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that Mark Dew was one of them? 3 A: Yeah, I guess he was. 4 Q: So you played no role in setting that 5 up; did you have any role in monitoring that operation 6 or -- 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: -- in any way? Would you have been 9 concerned about other officers visiting undercover 10 officers in the Park? 11 A: That was -- whatever they were doing, 12 that had nothing to do with what I was tasked to do down 13 there. 14 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, we had some 15 evidence from you about your trying to get night vision 16 available for the officers, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that was over a period of a 19 couple of days preceding September 6th? 20 A: Yes, it was at some time before that, 21 yes. 22 Q: So was -- it was anticipated, was it, 23 that you might have to go down to the Park at night in an 24 operation such as eventually did eventuate? 25 A: No, sir.
941 Q: That wasn't anticipated? 2 A: For the night vision, no. 3 Q: And so why did you want the night 4 vision? 5 A: I believe that may have been a 6 request from -- from the ERT leaders who were working the 7 night shift, better see -- they could see what's going 8 on. 9 Q: And do you recall what -- 10 A: For their own safety and -- and keep 11 tabs on what was happening. 12 Q: Do you recall what ERT leader that 13 might have been? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: Now, if we could turn please to Tab 16 21 of your document brief which is Exhibit P-1154. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Which is a transcript of a telephone 21 call between you and Officer Wayde Jacklin on September 22 5th at 23:32. 23 And on page 3 of that transcript Officer 24 Jacklin is explaining to you about damage that had been 25 done to cruisers and you at the top of that page say:
951 "Windows?" 2 And he responds: 3 "Yeah. There's damage to windshields 4 and they did a little damage to some of 5 the hoods of the cars too." 6 And you say: 7 "Little fuckers." 8 Right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you were referring to the Stoney 11 Point people generally or the people who did the damage 12 or -- or the people occupying the Park or can you tell 13 us? 14 A: I -- I don't know. I imagine I'm 15 referring to those who damaged the cruisers. 16 Q: And then you continue later on 17 towards the the bottom of the page: 18 "Well, live and learn, live and learn. 19 This -- their day will fucking come." 20 Officer Jacklin says: 21 "Yeah." 22 And then you say: 23 "I was talking to Mark Wright tonight." 24 He says: 25 "Hmm hmm."
961 And you say: 2 "We want to amass a fucking army." 3 He says: 4 "Hmm hmm." 5 And you say, continuing the next page: 6 "A real fucking army and do this, do 7 these fuckers big time. But I don't 8 want to talk about it because I'll get 9 all hyped up." 10 Now, you testified about this a bit in- 11 chief. Now, there -- when you say, "fucking army," I 12 assume you mean a lot of officers, right? 13 A: Well, like -- like I explained in- 14 chief I don't -- I don't recall the phone call so I'm not 15 sure. I -- 16 Q: Well -- 17 A: -- this -- 18 Q: -- would -- would -- 19 A: -- I was half asleep. 20 Q: Sorry? 21 A: I was half asleep when this phone 22 call was made so I -- I don't know. 23 Q: By a "fucking army," you didn't mean 24 the Military? 25 A: I did not, no, I probably did not
971 mean the Military. 2 Q: You didn't mean the Military? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: So what you would have meant would 5 have been a large number of officers, right? 6 A: I may have, yes. 7 Q: There's nothing else you could have 8 meant other than a large number of officers, right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Thank you. And when you say, "Do 11 these fuckers big time" I would put it to you there are 12 two (2) possible meanings of "do" and probably you meant 13 the first in that context. 14 One (1) possible meaning would be beat 15 them up and the second meaning would mean kill them. And 16 I presume you weren't thinking of killing everybody were 17 you, sir? 18 A: Neither of those was what I meant 19 from that. 20 Q: Well, can you give me another 21 possible meaning of "do these fuckers big time" in this 22 context? 23 A: Yes, I will. In -- in police talk, 24 Your Honour, and -- and back in 1995 it was -- it was -- 25 you've heard language from police officers here about
981 Road Warriors and -- and Bravos and Limas and Badgers and 2 in police talk you have your language which -- which 3 means certain things and in other professions I'm sure 4 they use -- they use terms that other people wouldn't 5 understand that they use for their own meanings. 6 Back then in '95 and -- and maybe -- I 7 don't know, even to this day or not but I'm not involved 8 in it anymore, it would be common practice for say, when 9 I was a sergeant where somebody would, you know, have 10 arrested somebody and, What did you do him for, or, What 11 are you going to do him for? 12 In that reference it meant, What are you 13 going to charge him with? Okay, are you going to go -- 14 are you going to go do these guys? It never meant -- 15 there was never -- I have never heard the word to do 16 somebody to go and beat them up or to kill somebody. 17 That was -- if you're going to do somebody 18 or you brought him in, Sarge, what should I do this guy 19 for? Do him for impaired driving, based on the facts. 20 And that was to charge someone or to arrest him. 21 Or if there was some sort of task that had 22 to be done, a search warrant was going to be executed, 23 You're going to do this house. That's in -- in policing 24 how we use that term. 25 It was never meant to do -- to go beat up
991 somebody because we didn't do that, or to go and kill 2 somebody for crying out loud. 3 Q: Or if you're going to arrest 4 somebody, you don't say I'm going to do them big time, do 5 you? What does 'big time' mean. 6 A: You -- you could say -- well if -- if 7 I'm referring to a -- a lot of officers that we're going 8 to go arrest a lot of people. 9 Q: It says: 10 "Do these fuckers big time." 11 I put it to you, sir, that you were very 12 angry and you meant we're going to fight with them. 13 There's no other reasonable explanation of that. 14 A: Angry, tired, and grumpy, yes. To 15 beat them up, no. 16 Q: Now you refer to the fact, in the 17 previous page, you were talking to Mark Wright tonight. 18 I believe you said in-chief you don't recall having 19 talked to Mark Wright that night; is that correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: But we can't take it from your 22 saying, "I was talking to Mark Wright tonight," that you 23 must have talked to Mark Wright that night, right? 24 A: I may not -- I may not have. I don't 25 recall.
1001 Q: You might have made that up to 2 Officer Jacklyn? 3 A: I was -- like I said, I'm -- I'm 4 awakened in the middle of the night after having two (2) 5 hours sleep over a two (2) day period. Why I said that; 6 I was grumpy, sure I was. I don't recall talking to Mark 7 Wright that night at all. 8 I was off at -- I believe at eight o'clock 9 at night, something to eat and back to my hotel room, 10 call home, shower. And then there was a phone call 11 previous to this about the batteries. 12 Q: Sir, I would put it to you that it's 13 inconceivable that you would have told Officer Jacklin, 14 "I was talking to Mark Wright tonight, we want to amass a 15 fucking army," if you hadn't had some conversation with 16 Mark Wright, either that night, or perhaps earlier, about 17 getting a large number of officers to deal with the 18 situation. 19 Is that not fair, sir? 20 A: I do not recall any conversation with 21 Mark Wright about anything in -- in that nature. 22 Q: I appreciate that you -- your 23 evidence is that you don't recall it, sir. 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: But I'm suggesting to you that you
1011 hear your voice saying this and you know that you must 2 have had some such conversation with Mark Wright, or else 3 you wouldn't have told Officer Jacklin that, right? 4 A: I don't -- I don't know, sir. 5 Q: You don't know that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: I see. Now let's turn to Tab 31, 8 which is Exhibit P-1155, another transcript. There is an 9 entry identified as unidentified speaker, and then it 10 says S.K., which is you, and it indicates you're talking 11 to someone else rather than on the phone, rather than 12 directing your remarks to the phone. 13 And attributed to you is: 14 "Lacroix's on his way up to do these 15 guys." 16 And I believe you were played this in- 17 chief when Mr. Millar was examining you. And you 18 indicated that was your voice saying that, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And this was -- you were in the 21 Command Unit at this point. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So you were -- if you're saying it to 24 someone else other than a person on the phone, you were 25 saying it to someone else in the Command Unit, evidently;
1021 is that correct? 2 A: In the -- in the radio room there of 3 the Command Post, yes. 4 Q: Somebody in -- in the radio room at 5 the Command Post? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now this is at September 6th at 20:25 8 hours. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Can you tell us who you might have 11 been saying that to in the sense of who was in the 12 Command -- in the radio room with you? 13 A: I don't recall who was... 14 Q: Might it have been Inspector Carson? 15 A: I don't recall who was in there. 16 Q: Now again you use the terminology: 17 "Lacroix's on his way up to do these 18 guys." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: This is a day later from the earlier 21 phone call, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I put it to you that these guys 24 must have meant the occupiers of the Park? 25 A: No, I was referring to the Crowd
1031 Management Unit. 2 Q: So he was going to "do" the Crowd 3 Management Unit? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: In what sense of the word "do" was he 6 going to do the Crowd Management Unit? 7 A: To lead the Crowd Management Unit. 8 Q: To lead the Crowd Management Unit? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you would use that phrase to mean 11 lead the Crowd Management Unit? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you're absolutely certain under 14 oath that you did not mean: 15 "Do these guys, the same guys that you 16 were doing twenty-four (24) hours 17 earlier?" 18 A: This was a -- this was a -- it was a 19 different scenario, a different set of circumstances. We 20 were talking about different things. 21 Q: Yes. Can I put it to you that the 22 terminology is so similar and the context so related that 23 it's clear that you must have meant the guys in the 24 Park -- 25 A: No.
1041 Q: -- as the guys that were going to be 2 'done' by Lacroix? 3 A: Like I explained earlier, we -- in 4 police talk you can mean -- you can mean different 5 things. If we were talking about some training and -- 6 and there's a task to be done and -- and one (1) unit was 7 going to get trained on this, Do you want -- do you want 8 to do these guys, lead these guys? That's how you 9 referred to it. 10 I believe in the conversation I had with 11 Zupancic from TRU I referred to, Lacroix's on his way -- 12 when we talked about the Crowd Management Unit being 13 assembled, I said, He's on his way to handle these guys; 14 same thing, in reference to the Crowd Management Unit. 15 Q: You indicated, with respect to the 16 previous tape, that it bothers you to hear that tape. 17 "Every time I hear it, because even 18 though it's my voice, it's not me." 19 Right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You're embarrassed when you listen to 22 it in the calm, quiet of some other situation, other than 23 that motel room that night, right? 24 A: I think I'm more embarrassed that it 25 -- it was played publicly.
1051 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And the profanities; that's what 5 bothers me. 6 Q: The profanity bothers you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I see. So, for example, going back 9 to the -- the conversation of September 5th, if it just 10 said we want to amass an army, a real army, and do these 11 people big time, you wouldn't be so embarrassed by it? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: So it's the profanity that bothers 14 you? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: So you acknowledge, though, that you 17 even calmly, now, then, don't feel embarrassed by saying 18 you want to do these people big time and amass an army to 19 do it? 20 A: Am I embarrassed by that? 21 Q: You say, No. 22 A: No, I'm not embarrassed by it because 23 I -- like -- like I said, I know that's not me; that's 24 not my -- my demeanour or my manner. 25 It -- when we refer -- when this was --
1061 the -- the phone call prior to this, when I'm -- when I - 2 - when I hadn't been asleep and I was awake and this -- 3 this was told to me, my response was, Well, we'll get 4 Standard Auto Glass, they have the contr -- it was very 5 matter of fact, administrative, Okay, get the cars fixed, 6 here's where you get them fixed, here's whose got the 7 contract to fix these cars. 8 Now, a half hour after -- it looks like 9 about a half an hour sleep, I'm into the same 10 conversation again but it's -- it's a completely 11 different -- my manner is completely different, my 12 demeanour is different, I can tell my voice is different; 13 I'm very tired and very grumpy. We're recalling where 14 our officers were -- were -- had rocks and boulders 15 thrown at them. Yeah, I was upset. 16 Q: And -- 17 A: And that was probably more the lack 18 of sleep. 19 Q: You were upset, and your reaction was 20 you wanted to fight. 21 A: No, sir. 22 Q: Wasn't that your reaction? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: That's what these words indicate. 25 A: That's not what they were intended to
1071 do. My actions all prior to this event had been to try 2 and avoid confrontation. Why would I want to -- why 3 would I want to start a fight over some rocks being 4 thrown at the -- at the cruisers? 5 Q: Now, you told us that at this point 6 you weren't aware that Constable Whelan had pushed picnic 7 tables with his cruiser; is that correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: You found out about that afterward? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I don't know when I found out about 14 that. I think that might have even been until -- 15 Q: I'm sorry? 16 A: -- last week. 17 Q: I see. Well, the evidence from some 18 of the people -- the Stoney Point people who were at the 19 scene was that he pushed the picnic tables, including 20 some with people on them and that got people upset. 21 A: I don't know that. 22 Q: No, you don't know that. If you had 23 been aware of that, you might have been less angry at the 24 people's reaction to the cruiser, right? 25 A: I -- I don't know.
1081 Q: Now, you -- you told us that you were 2 not aware, at this point, that -- am I correct, that you 3 were not aware that the Premier indicated that he was 4 concerned about the OPP having given up the Park? 5 A: I don't -- I don't recall that. 6 Q: Do you recall any feeling that some 7 people didn't understand why you prudently decided to 8 yield rather than fight it out for the Park on September 9 4th, 1995? 10 Do you recall your feeling concerned that 11 some people didn't understand that? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 13 minute, before you answer. Yes, Ms. Jones...? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Again, Mr. 15 Commissioner, I'm not sure how this Witness can answer a 16 question about "some people". Is there someone specific 17 and is it -- is there a foundation that, for example, it 18 would someone Mr. Korosec had spoken with? 19 Other than that, it's a question out in 20 the air about some people out there and their views and 21 how can this Witness speak to that? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It might be 23 more helpful if -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I asked him if he 25 felt -- do you recall feeling concerned. Mr.
1091 Commissioner -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I don't 4 understand objections like this, it just wastes time. 5 Did he feel concerned? He can answer if 6 he felt concerned or not -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- about anyone. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'm not 10 sure -- do you want to ask the question again. Let's see 11 if -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. The question-- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- he can 14 answer it. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- was, sir: 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: Do you recall, during this time 19 period, after the events of late afternoon September 4 20 and up to, say, the evening of September 6th, feeling 21 concerned that some people didn't understand how sensible 22 it was for you to prudently lead your officers to 23 withdraw from the Park, rather than fighting it out on 24 the afternoon of September 4th? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's gotten
1101 to be a very difficult question. I'm not sure if you 2 made it more difficult or if you clarified it. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But it's built on an 4 assumption that he has to ask the Witness. He -- the 5 question is: Did you feel that some people may not 6 understand? 7 Well, the -- the assumption is that some 8 people didn't understand. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 10 know that. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- we don't know that, 14 and he could ask that question -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, ask 16 that question. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, we do have 18 evidence that some people didn't understand but -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But that -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- but that -- not 21 that he knows. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That was implicit 24 in my question, in my view, but in any way, obviously if 25 he would -- if he didn't know of anyone he'd say, No, I
1111 wasn't aware of anything. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, all 3 right. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: But in any way -- in any event, were 7 you aware that anybody was critical of your withdrawing 8 from the Park on September 4 rather than holding your 9 ground; that there was any -- any criticism in any 10 quarters during that time period? 11 A: No, I was not aware of any. 12 Q: Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, there were a number of people, 17 presumably, who were trained to lead an ERT team who were 18 in the -- in the rough general area; is that fair? 19 A: I was aware -- to -- to -- 20 Q: Are you aware that -- 21 A: -- to lead what? 22 Q: To lead an ERT team. 23 A: To lead a ERT team? 24 Q: Yes. We're talking -- 25 A: Yeah. There were several ERT team
1121 leaders, yes. 2 Q: Yes. Were you, yourself, qualified 3 to lead the ERT team on that evening, if -- if you had 4 played that role instead of Inspector Lacroix? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend is -- is 6 confusing the Crowd Management Unit and an ERT team. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There are four (4) 9 different ERT teams on the ground, each had a leader and 10 a -- and an assistant leader of which Mr. Korosec was 11 one. 12 What I think My Friend is talking about is 13 the CMU, Crowd Management Unit. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, that's - 15 - I do appreciate the clarification for a change, sir. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: So, with respect to the Crowd 19 Management Unit, were you, yourself, sir, trained in a 20 way that would have allowed you to lead the Crowd 21 Management Unit that -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- evening if you -- 24 A: No, sir. 25 Q: No. And who were some other officers
1131 that were so trained? 2 A: Well, staff -- Staff Sergeant Lacroix 3 and there was another staff sergeant; I believe he came 4 on the training with us. I -- I forget his name now and 5 he was from I believe what was 6 District at the time and 6 that would have been here in County -- up that way. I'm 7 not sure. I don't recall his name. 8 Q: It was another one whose name you 9 don't recall now? 10 A: No. That's correct. 11 Q: And it was -- were those the only two 12 (2) in the vicinity? 13 A: I -- I'm sure -- or in the vicinity? 14 No, they were the only two (2) that I can recall 15 Q: That you can recall eleven (11) years 16 later now? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: But would you -- well can you assist 19 us as to about how many potential Crowd Management Unit 20 leaders would there have been in the vicinity at that 21 time even if you don't recall who they were. 22 A: No, I don't know. 23 Q: Would it be likely half a dozen, a 24 dozen? 25 A: Oh, no. There was probably very --
1141 from what I can recall, very few. 2 Q: Do you know of at least two (2) or do 3 you think that -- 4 A: I know of at least two (2) in the 5 Southern Ontario part. I'm sure there was others in -- 6 up in the GTA region, in Northern Ontario. I don't know 7 for sure. 8 Q: And you don't know if there were 9 others in the nearer vicinity? 10 A: I don't recall -- I'm sure -- I'm not 11 sure. I know Staff Sergeant Lacroix because he trained 12 with us for -- when we did Crowd Management Unit along 13 with the -- I think it was -- I believe it was the 2 -- 2 14 District Team and 3 and 6 may have trained with us as 15 well. 16 So I remember Staff Sergeant Lacroix and 17 this other Staff Sergeant from Huron County. 18 Q: And you don't know how many others 19 available? 20 A: I know there was not any in our old 21 district of Essex County and Lambton. 22 Q: In -- in your own district? Meaning 23 -- was -- was Lacroix in your own district? 24 A: Yes he was. He was in Petrolia. 25 Q: Sorry?
1151 A: He was with Petrolia Detachment. 2 Q: Now, you are the person who 3 recommended Lacroix in particular? 4 A: I suggested him because he -- I knew 5 he was trained and he was the closest one that I knew of; 6 the closest to Forest. 7 Q: You were also aware that he had been 8 involved in a previous incident where someone had gotten 9 shot and killed? 10 A: I don't think I was aware of that. 11 Q: I see. Now, if you could turn please 12 to your Tab 17 which are the scribe notes, Exhibit P-426, 13 the handwritten scribe notes and page 73 thereof. 14 At 20:02 hours, this is on the evening of 15 September 6th 1995, an entry at the end of the third 16 paragraph under that time period reads: 17 "DALE LINTON: Let's wait and see what 18 Provincial Constable Poole's statement 19 reveals." 20 And then later on at the fourth paragraph 21 of the entry at 20:08 hours: 22 "DALE LINTON: I want something in 23 writing and that statement from the 24 victim so we have something then I'm 25 prepared to act on it."
1161 Do you see those entries, sir? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you would have been aware of that 4 at the time that there was this discussion going on as to 5 whether one should wait for a statement or proceed 6 without the statement? 7 A: I may have been. I don't recall it. 8 I may have been. 9 Q: And we know that the -- the statement 10 gave an accurate account as to what happened, namely a 11 Band Councillor, Gerald George had been attacked by one 12 (1) person throwing a stone at his car as opposed to 13 another version that was going around, that a woman 14 unrelated to anything had been attacked by eight (8) 15 people with baseball bats, right? 16 You're aware of that distinction now? 17 A: Yeah. At that time I wasn't aware -- 18 Q: Right. 19 A: -- of all the information that it 20 happened. In fact I only saw the statement last -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- or the last time I was here. 23 Q: Yes. But at least in retrospect, 24 Inspector Linton had a good point didn't he? He's not -- 25 A: I -- I guess --
1171 Q: -- here, unfortunately, to tell us 2 about it but -- 3 A: I don't know all the information that 4 he may have gotten that's not in here or what. I -- I 5 don't know what his thought process was. 6 Q: Now, in general, you recognized that 7 operations at night would tend to be more dangerous than 8 in the day time? 9 An operation such as eventuated of 10 marching on people in the Park? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: It's probably something you might -- 15 you don't plan, unless to somehow it's going to be to 16 your advantage. 17 It depends on the situation and this set 18 aside, just tactically, I don't know. There may be times 19 where you want to go -- 20 Q: If you wanted to sneak up on people 21 it might be better at night, for example? 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: But an operation of this type, where 24 you have some large number of officers marching on people 25 occupying a Park, you'd rather do that during the day
1181 when you could see what's going on, wouldn't you? If you 2 had a choice? 3 A: If -- if you have a choice? 4 Q: If there wasn't any emergency that 5 had to be dealt with at night, you'd rather do it during 6 the day, right? 7 A: Are you talking about this or in 8 general? 9 Q: This kind of an operation. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I mean, there's -- you know, there's 14 so many variables that go into, you know, when you're 15 going to do something and -- and -- and, you know, when 16 you are and when you aren't, it's hard to say. 17 Q: Okay, that's fine. Now, I'd like 18 your views on the following as somebody who was in the 19 Command Post that night. 20 There were concerns about possible 21 violence, is presumably the reason that the CMU was 22 deployed that night, right? To prevent violence, not to 23 start it, presumably, but the goal was to prevent 24 violence, right? 25 A: I don't know what the discussions
1191 were on how they were going to be used and what -- what 2 their role was going to be used in this particular 3 situation. I was not a party to any of those 4 discussions. 5 Q: You were aware that the checkpoints 6 were still in existence, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And one of your responsibilities was 9 overseeing that operation, right? 10 A: Not from an operational point of 11 view. 12 Q: From what point of view was -- 13 A: Well, the checkpoints were managed by 14 the -- by the ERT leaders and they -- they adjusted them 15 and moved people around as they saw that they needed from 16 -- from -- from the ERT leader probably at the TOC in 17 communication. 18 My job was not to -- unless I was 19 instructed to, was not to have them -- not to tell people 20 where to go or how many officers to put at what 21 checkpoint or where to move them; that wasn't -- that 22 wasn't my responsibility in this operational plan. 23 Q: Were you aware of any discussion 24 from, say, 6:00 p.m. on September 6th on, of the 25 possibility of alerting people at the checkpoints to
1201 alert people who might be going near the sandy parking 2 lot, that they should not go there because it might be 3 dangerous? 4 A: I don't recall that. 5 Q: If you could please turn to your Tab 6 14. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Tab 14 is Exhibit P-421, Inquiry 11 document 3000574, and it's minutes of a meeting of 12 September 1st, 1995. You were asked about this briefly 13 during your direct examination. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, if you turn to page 4 of that 16 document, the very last line: 17 "Monday evening at 6:00 p.m. all 18 campers have to leave as the Park 19 completely closes. This is expected 20 when this happens." 21 So it was your understanding at the time 22 and the understanding of the other people, as far as you 23 understood, that as of 6:00 p.m. the Park was going to 24 close, right? 25 A: Yes.
1211 Q: And in fact, although you were aware 2 beforehand, as you've told us, that the Stoney Point 3 people were planning to enter the Park, they waited until 4 around that time to do so, right? 5 A: Can you say that again? 6 Q: On September 4? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that was Monday evening; that was 9 the Monday that was referred to was September 4, the end 10 of Labour Day, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And didn't you conclude, sir, at the 13 time, that the fact that the people waited until the Park 14 was closed was an indication that they wanted to avoid 15 violence and disruption? 16 A: I did not conclude that, no. 17 Q: You did not conclude that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: I see. What did you conclude from 20 their waiting until the Park was closed? 21 A: I -- I had no opinion on that. 22 Q: Didn't think -- 23 A: I made no conclusions. No, I didn't 24 think about that. 25 Q: And that wasn't discussed at all at
1221 this meeting of September 1st, several days before 2 September 4? As far as you recall that wasn't discussed 3 at all at that meeting or other meetings of high ranking 4 officers? 5 A: Not that I can recall. 6 Q: Excuse me, Mr. Commissioner. Would 7 you please turn to Tab 17, the scribe notes again, 8 Exhibit P-476 -- 426, sorry. 9 If you could look at page 40 of the scribe 10 notes, approximately in the middle of the page, in at 11 least my printing of it, in the middle of a notably long 12 paragraph, it reads: 13 "Carson advised Sergeant Korosec to 14 utilize the TRU team if needed." 15 Do you see that entry, sir? 16 A: No, I haven't got it here. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Which -- which paragraph are you at? 21 Q: Yeah, there are a couple different 22 printings of these scribe notes; I hope we have the same 23 one. 24 It's a paragraph that begins: 25 "Staff Sergeant Dennis inquired
1231 about..." 2 And in my printing it's right in the 3 middle of the page. 4 A: Oh, okay. 5 Q: Do you see that one, sir? 6 A: Yes, okay, I've got it now. 7 Q: Thank you. Is it -- is it the middle 8 of your page, so I know if we have the same printing? 9 A: Yeah. Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And in the middle of that 11 paragraph it says: 12 "Carson advised Sergeant Korosec to 13 utilize the TRU team if needed." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes, I see that. 16 Q: So that appears to give you the 17 authority to call in the TRU team if you, in your 18 estimate, feel it's needed? 19 A: No, sir, that -- that's incorrect. 20 There is absolutely no way that a sergeant can -- can 21 utilize, activate or otherwise instruct -- instruct a TRU 22 team. 23 Why -- why that's in there and how the 24 scribe put that in there, there's no way I could do that, 25 would want to do that, nor would the TRU team even --
1241 knowing how they operate, nor would the TRU team even 2 take any direction or call out from me. 3 They know it's got to come from an 4 incident commander and from -- I believe at that time it 5 was the rank of Inspector or higher that could only 6 activate a TRU team or utilize them in any manner. That 7 was not for a sergeant; a sergeant could not do that. 8 Q: So you have no explanation as to why 9 we see that in the scribe notes? 10 A: No, that's wrong. 11 Q: Turning to page 42 of the scribe 12 notes. Excuse me. There's a lovely long paragraph about 13 a third of the way down the page beginning: 14 "Inspector Carson wants people..." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the next last -- the third -- 17 third from last sentence of that paragraph reads: 18 "Inspector Carson stated that if the 19 First Nations get lippy, don't take too 20 much. If they become pushy, arrested 21 them and get them out of there." 22 Do you see that paragraph, sir? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Do you recall then a discussion of 25 First Nations people being lippy, or words to that
1251 effect? 2 A: I don't recall that. 3 Q: Well you do recall, don't you, that 4 Dudley George was regarded as lippy, or words to that 5 effect, by some officers, in the sense that he talked 6 back to them a lot. 7 Isn't that true? 8 A: I don't know that. 9 Q: You don't recall that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: If you could turn to your Tab 24 12 which is Exhibit P-1314 to these proceedings. It's a 13 transcript of a phone conversation. 14 You're enquiring about the use of guns by 15 officers. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you're informed that there were 18 approximately ten (10) long guns used on that occasion. 19 And my question for you is the following: It's my 20 understanding that at the time, and presently, if an 21 officer draws a handgun, he must report that on the Use 22 of Force Report, whether or not he fires the gun. 23 Is that correct? 24 A: Back then it may have been the case. 25 I -- I don't know if it's still in effect today, I don't
1261 know, but... 2 Q: You don't if it's in effect today? 3 A: No. I don't work for the OPP 4 anymore. I don't know if it's -- 5 Q: I'm sorry. 6 A: I don't work for the OPP anymore so I 7 don't know if that -- 8 Q: Yes, but -- 9 A: -- is still in effect. But back then 10 I believe it was. 11 Q: And until you left the OPP that was 12 the case, was it not? 13 A: Yes, yes. 14 Q: That anyone who draws a handgun, 15 whether or not he or she fires it, must report that on a 16 Use of Force Report? 17 A: I believe if -- if it was -- if it 18 was in view of the public or some -- to some effect, yes. 19 Q: In view of the public, okay. And 20 what about if one had long guns that were in view of the 21 public; was it required that that be reported? 22 A: I -- I can't remember. 23 Q: You don't recall. 24 A: No. 25 Q: You were making enquiries about the
1271 use of the guns there, according to this telephone 2 conversation. And on the next page, the second page of 3 it, you -- you say: 4 "Where guns are drawn that you hear 5 about, give us a call and let us know." 6 So you wanted to know about it, right? 7 A: Yes, I believe that Inspector Linton 8 asked me to enquire about this. He heard about it and so 9 he asked me to get this information on -- on what 10 happened down there and were guns drawn. So that's -- 11 that was why I made the phone call. 12 Q: Yes. In that particular incident, 13 but then also in the second page, in the middle of the 14 page, you seem to indicate that you want to know, more 15 generally, anytime that guns are used in any -- in any 16 sense, you want to know about it, right? 17 A: I guess, yeah, and so we wouldn't 18 have to go back and find out what happened. If we heard 19 it later we -- 20 Q: You want to know right away. 21 A: -- hear about it -- inform the 22 Inspector right away. 23 Q: Right. But you don't recall if it 24 then had to be reported in some more formal ways such as 25 the Use of Force Report or --
1281 A: I don't recall. 2 Q: If you could turn to your Tab 27, 3 please, which is Exhibit P-1156, a conversation between 4 you and several other officers. 5 And I'm interested in page 2. In the 6 middle of the page, attributed to Mark Wright, is -- as 7 saying to you, is inaudible. But then it's -- you 8 answer: 9 "He's in the permanent code of silence, 10 so it's okay." 11 And then -- well -- yeah, and then it was 12 listened to and Mark Wright said and it was generally 13 agreed that it was probably -- he's in the permanent 14 'cone' of silence. Did -- did you agree with that as 15 well? 16 A: Cone? Yes. Well -- yes. 17 Q: I mean it's your words and do you -- 18 when you listed to it you hear 'cone' as well? 19 A: Cone. Yes. 20 Q: So he's in the permanent cone of 21 silence. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that was you who said that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what did you mean by that?
1291 A: We're joking around here. It was a - 2 - from looking at this. If you ever watch the old TV 3 show Get Smart, they talked about the cone of silence 4 where they'd actually put cones on their heads so it was 5 -- it was just some -- I don't know who came up with that 6 phrase and how it got to -- used. 7 I know it was used before not just in this 8 incident, so we're doing some joking around with Mark 9 Wright. Mark Wright was right there with me and talking 10 to Rob Graham on the phone. 11 Q: Mark Wright is next to you and you -- 12 A: I believe he was. 13 Q: Right. And -- but you -- you're 14 describing who is in the permanent cone of silence? Mark 15 Wright or -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- someone -- someone else that Mark 18 Wright referred to that we -- we can't make out on the 19 tape. 20 A: Let me have a read of this, first. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: There's parts of it there inaudible 25 there, so I -- I don't know who I'm referring to there
1301 but it was -- it was -- it was just some joking around 2 there between me and Rob and Mark. 3 Q: And the next tab, 28, I believe it's 4 P-204. Oh, no, sorry. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 28 is 1105. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, yeah, yeah. 7 1105? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Yes, 10 thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Conversation on September 6th between 14 you and Mark Wright at 17:39 hours and Mark Wright is 15 indicating to you in the third entry: 16 "I'll go down to where we talked about 17 anyway." 18 So, whatever else we can take from this, 19 there had been some preplanning of something related to 20 this between you and Mark Wright that he's referring to, 21 as you having talked about in some previous conversation; 22 right? 23 A: Obviously, yes. 24 Q: And you don't recall now what that 25 had to do with?
1311 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: This -- it may have -- because I -- 5 as I recall she's unaware of that meeting. This might 6 have been in reference to a meeting of people opposed to 7 -- to the occupation. I'm not a 100 percent sure, but 8 "she's unaware of any -- of that meeting." 9 Q: And "Go down to where we talked 10 about", might have meant go down to a place where that 11 meeting was conjectured to possibly take place? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: I'm sorry, the question again was? 16 Q: The -- Mark Wright saying to you, 17 "I'll go down to where we talked about anyway and wait", 18 might have been going down to a place where you had 19 anticipated such a meeting might take place? 20 A: Where the -- yeah. I think we might 21 have had some information about this meeting taking place 22 at a particular place and he's going down to check it 23 out. I'm not a 100 percent sure, but it seems to me 24 that's -- might be what that's referring to. 25 Q: Now, there are several references to
1321 pepper spray in the course of these several days, 2 including getting large canisters and including -- we 3 have evidence that it was used on one -- small, ordinary 4 canister was used on one (1) occasion. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Now, with respect to the use of 7 pepper spray, was it required at the time that one must 8 fill out a Use Of Force Report if one does so? 9 A: I believe so, that was use of force, 10 yes. 11 Q: And I know there's a wheel, there 12 used to be, at least, a wheel that police officers are 13 given as showing different kinds of force, right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what's considered more serious 16 use of force and less serious use of force would appear 17 in various ways on a wheel and it's -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- discussed in police training. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Where does pepper spray fit as to how 22 serious a use of force that's regarded as, compared to, 23 for example -- certainly, it's less serious than a 24 firearm? 25 A: Yes.
1331 Q: And how does that compare to the use 2 of a baton? 3 A: You're testing my memory on this. I 4 believe it's -- it's -- it would be a level below the 5 baton. 6 Q: I see. And you're old enough to 7 recall when pepper spray was first introduced in Ontario, 8 right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: At the time it was argued that using 11 pepper spray would be something that could take place in 12 some situations where otherwise firearms might be used 13 and therefore it would save lives. Do you recall that 14 kind of argument? 15 A: Oh, I don't recall that. 16 Q: You don't recall that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I see. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, you were -- when did you first 23 get concerned with the Ipperwash situation, the Ipperwash 24 and the Army Camp situation? 25 You were concerned for the entire summer
1341 of 1995 were you, sir? 2 A: I don't know what you mean by -- by 3 "concerned"? 4 Q: Among your duties was for at least 5 the entire summer of 1995 was -- had some relation to the 6 occupation of the Army Camp and then subsequently the -- 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, that 8 actually wasn't Mr. Korosec's evidence. He had explained 9 that there was a period of time he was on holiday and 10 then he returned and he gave the dates in August that he 11 returned and he had some involvement in Ipperwash. He 12 certainly wasn't involved or concerned the entire summer. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. He -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, well, he would 15 have answered that presumably. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 17 going before August? 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 20 looking at the period -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm going to ask 22 something more specific, but in particular by the end of 23 -- say from August 15, 1995, through September 6th, 1995, 24 were you -- your duties included duties in relation to 25 the Park and the Camp; is that correct?
1351 A: Well, for periods of time some 2 members of my ERT team when I was in charge of them at 3 that time were assigned general patrol duties around the 4 Provincial Park. 5 Q: Right. And the Camp? 6 A: Well, yes, in that area. 7 Q: Now, did you interact with -- I 8 believe he was Staff Sergeant at the time, Bouwman? 9 A: Bouwman? 10 Q: Bouwman? 11 A: Did I interact with him? 12 Q: Yes, in the course of those duties? 13 A: In the course of those duties. Not 14 officially and I -- I don't even remember. I may have 15 casually bumped into him here and there but we -- I 16 reported back through the channels through to Forest. 17 Q: Now, -- 18 A: As far as, you know, the policing and 19 that was concerned and -- and what was going on. 20 Q: In anticipation of the possible 21 occupation of the Park before it took place, say in late 22 August, you were aware of concerns, that trying to 23 prevent that occupation from taking place, right? 24 A: I was aware of concerns? 25 Q: You were -- the OPP was going to try
1361 if -- if reasonably possible without undue danger to 2 life to prevent an occupation from taking place; is that 3 correct? 4 A: I -- that -- those discussions may 5 have taken place at a -- at a higher level. 6 Q: You weren't aware of that? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Well, what was your understanding as 9 to why there were undercover officers in the Park? 10 A: Why they were -- the -- it was not my 11 decision to place them there or why they were there. I 12 can -- I can only imagine they were there to be an extra 13 set of eyes and -- and ears down there other than the 14 uniformed officers that we had down there. 15 Q: But wasn't that with the goal of 16 trying to prevent an occupation from taking place? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: You don't -- didn't know that? 19 A: No, I don't know that. 20 Q: I see. And where you aware of 21 enlisting MNR personnel to try to assist the OPP in 22 monitoring the situation? 23 A: I wasn't aware of any of those plans. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1371 Q: Now, we've had some evidence about 2 the arrest of a man named Cecil Bernard George on that 3 evening. You were -- you are aware of who that person 4 is? 5 A: After the fact, yes. 6 Q: After the fact. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you're aware of allegations that 9 he was beaten? 10 A: After the fact, yes. 11 Q: Yes, after the fact. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you become aware, after the 14 fact, of any officers who indicated that they had struck 15 Cecil Bernard George in any way? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Thank 18 you, Officer. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. 21 I think you're up Mr. Ross. Would you 22 like to take a lunch break now or get started and -- 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I'm in your hands, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do
1381 you think you're going to be? Perhaps that will be a 2 good place to start. How long do you estimate? You 3 estimated an hour and a half (1 1/2) to two (2). Do you 4 still estimate that you're examination will be that 5 length? 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No, Mr. Commissioner. 7 Perhaps half that time. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 9 half? 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps half, maximum 11 forty-five (45) minutes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 13 should get started then and see how far we go. We didn't 14 start until ten o'clock so we should be able to go until 15 at least one o'clock. Thank you, Mr. Ross. 16 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 17 Commissioner. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 22 Q: Mr. Korosec, my name is Anthony Ross 23 and I represent the people now resident at Aazhoodena. 24 And there are one (1) of two (2) questions that I would 25 like to -- one (1) or two (2) matters I'd just like to
1391 have cleared up. 2 Today, sir, Exhibit 1330 was put before 3 you, and that is the transcript of an exchange between 4 yourself and Constable Randy Burch. 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Yeah. Now tell me, sir, before today 7 had you heard that transcript? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Sorry, have you -- had you heard the 12 tape, not the transcript, sorry? 13 A: No. 14 Q: So this conversation took place in 15 1995. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: The first time you're hearing it was 18 today? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: And, sir, is it fair to say that you 21 were unaware at the time that this conversation was being 22 taped? 23 A: Back in '95? I -- I don't know. 24 Q: I'll put it another way. Were you 25 conscious of the fact that your conversation was being
1401 taped? 2 A: I don't know because I don't know -- 3 I -- I don't know. I can't speculate. I don't know. 4 Q: I don't think you understood my 5 question, Officer. I'm asking you, it is a simple thing, 6 is are you -- were you conscious of the fact that you 7 were being taped? 8 A: In '95 was I conscious that I was 9 being -- I don't know, I don't recall. 10 Q: I see. Now, as far as the other 11 conversations that were put to you during this Inquiry, 12 do you remember the one where you were suppose to be 13 asleep and somebody's waking you about the broken glass-- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- and so on? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Were you conscious then that you were 18 being taped? 19 A: That phone call while I was -- when I 20 was woke up in the middle night, probably not. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: I -- I was -- you know, I wasn't 23 aware of what lines, which phones lines were -- were 24 being taped or recorded or not, and I don't know. 25 Q: I see. Now, as I look through the
1411 logger tapes, it appears as though you were heavily 2 involved with Inspector Carson and Sergeant Wright, 3 Inspector Linton, from about the 4th to around the 7th of 4 September 1995. 5 You were quite involved in what was 6 happening; is that a fair statement? 7 A: I was involved in -- in -- in certain 8 matters, and in other matters I wasn't involved in. 9 Things that had to do with my -- with what my role was in 10 this plan, receiving information and transmitting 11 information back and forth, the request for night vision 12 and all that stuff; that I was involved with in -- with 13 them. 14 Other aspects of any meetings or higher 15 level planning that took place, I was not involved in any 16 of those. 17 Q: So you weren't involved in any -- any 18 -- any meetings or any decisions at which policy 19 decisions were taken? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And were you involved in any meetings 22 at which strategic decisions were taken? 23 A: If they were minor ones, if we talked 24 about those barriers that we were going to move, or the 25 picnic tables incident, I wasn't involved in that plan.
1421 Depending what it was. If it was some 2 minor things that we -- that we wanted to do or that was 3 requested up through me from the ERT -- ERT team, moving 4 checkpoints or something, that I would have been involved 5 in. 6 Q: So you were a fairly low level 7 operative during these four (4) days from around the 3rd 8 to the 7th of September, 1995? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Were you involved in making any 11 tactical decisions as a low level operator? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: And were you involved in identifying 14 or deploying personnel? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Well, I was asked on that night of 19 the 6th to -- to get some extra uniform members up, those 20 kind of things, to deploy to, like, to checkpoints. 21 I know I made some calls to get -- and 22 certainly on the night of the 6th, to get more ERT teams 23 in after -- after -- after the shooting and everything, 24 getting personnel up to Forest. 25 I was --
1431 Q: Did -- 2 A: I was tasked with making those phone 3 calls and getting them up here. 4 Q: So your level of involvement was 5 really following instructions that came down the line to 6 you? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Rather than being a part of any 9 planning unit? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: I see. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, your Counsel -- sorry, perhaps 16 not your Counsel. Mrs. Tuck-Jackson asked you whether or 17 not -- sorry, got you to confirm that the OPP does not 18 treat people differently because of race. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Oh, sorry. If I may -- oh, very 23 sorry. No, no, no, I must apologize. It was Ann 24 Perschy, she got you to confirm the OPP does not treat 25 people differently because of race.
1441 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you confirmed that. And I take 3 it that you're speaking about in the environment of law 4 enforcement? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes, I suppose -- 9 Q: So whatever the law is, you just go 10 in and you enforce it? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Depending on what you mean by 15 "enforce," but I'll -- yes, apply -- it should be applied 16 equally, I guess is what... 17 Q: Now you spoke about what I mean by 18 the word "enforce." Now you told us that in police 19 language certain things mean -- I don't want to get 20 involved in a translation process with you. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And law enforcement, you've got a 23 concept of it; am I correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: My concept is enforcing the laws of
1451 the land as written and not inconsistent with the spirit. 2 Is that your understanding? 3 A: Yes. And how you enforce those laws 4 could -- could be different, but I agree. 5 Q: A certain amount of police 6 discretion? 7 A: Correct, yeah. 8 Q: So as far as enforcing the laws and 9 treating -- and -- and not treating people differently 10 because of race, would you agree with me then that if a 11 certain law is crafted in a particular way that applies 12 to a specific race, then that in applying the law there 13 must, of necessity, be a race component? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 17 Q: I'm not asking the Commissioner, I'm 18 asking you so don't -- 19 A: I know but I'm having trouble -- 20 having trouble understanding. 21 Q: Well, you can tell me that -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm trying 23 to follow it. He may understand it, I'm having 24 difficulty but -- 25 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Okay, fine.
1461 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I don't 2 want to interrupt because he may understand it. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I was going to just 4 put it another way -- 5 THE WITNESS: I know -- 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- to you and -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- I just want him to 9 know that he's the one that's under oath. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat it again for 12 me? 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 15 Q: No, sir, I'm just going to put it 16 another way. Are you aware that an Indian in Ontario is 17 not allowed to trade some potatoes that she grew in 18 Ontario with an Indian on the prairies for meat or 19 something else? 20 Do you -- do you understand that is an 21 offence against the Indian Act? 22 A: I -- I'm not aware of that law. 23 Q: I see. But in such a case, if you're 24 aware of it, you'd recognize then that enforcement of the 25 law, just by the way the law is drafted, has a racial
1471 component? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Without knowing what the intent of 6 the law is, if it -- just on the face of it, it may, but 7 I -- what you're refer -- I don't know what the intent of 8 that law is. 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: So -- but -- okay. 11 Q: And then would you agree with me, 12 sir, that situations, like what happened here at 13 Ipperwash, could very well be addressed by both levels of 14 government getting their own act together, so that when 15 it comes down to policing there's a clear understanding 16 of what is expected of the police, rather than leaving 17 the police to try to interpret policy or political 18 positions? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I suppose you're saying the police 23 are stuck in the middle of a situation like this? Is 24 that...? 25 Q: I am suggesting to you that you were
1481 stuck in the -- in the middle of a situation, and that it 2 would be much easier for policing if the Government had 3 gotten their act together to have set out some clear 4 lines as what you're supposed to be doing and what you're 5 not supposed to be doing. 6 A: Well maybe not so much as what we're 7 supposed to be doing but it -- you know if -- if there 8 were to be have been something from the -- from either 9 level of government to say, you know, this -- and -- and 10 some clear evidence that, you know, there is a burial 11 site here or -- it would make our -- it would make the 12 police job much easier. 13 Q: And if there was such a 14 clarification, it would be -- it would really affect the 15 approach that would be taken to the people who were 16 occupying the range, and then the Camp, and later the 17 Park; is that fair? 18 A: It may have. 19 Q: Yeah. So that rather than start with 20 the proposition that the Park is absolutely belonging to 21 the Province, no question, therefore they are 22 trespassers, so we will get a hundred warrant packages, 23 the police could look at it a different way and recognize 24 there -- there could be a valid claim, some validity to 25 the presence of these people in the Park?
1491 A: I -- I don't know and I'm not aware 2 of what research and what -- what legal work was done 3 prior to August, September of '95 to try and determine. 4 I mean, I'm a Sergeant down on the road, I'm at the low 5 level. 6 What -- what research was done, what 7 questions were asked with respect to the Provincial Park 8 or -- or even the Base prior -- prior to this, I don't 9 know what was done, what meetings were held, who talked 10 with who, what research was done. I was unaware of any 11 of that. 12 Q: Well, I'm very -- 13 A: I -- I got to go by what top down 14 approach, what I'm told to do and what I'm told is the 15 case that this is the way it is and -- and so I've got to 16 follow my instructions. 17 Q: Well, I'm very happy to hear that. 18 So then what I'm saying to you, sir, is that if you as 19 Sergeant Korosec back in 1995 was aware that there is a 20 good and proper Colour of Right argument for the 21 individuals who occupy the range and later the Camp and 22 later the Park, that in all probability the police action 23 would have been less aggressive. 24 Is that a fair statement? 25 A: If -- if you're saying it as me as a
1501 Sergeant having that information? That would be 2 communicated down to me by someone at a much higher 3 level. And I'm sure our instructions may -- may have 4 changed, I don't know. And what we were suppose to do, 5 I'm -- my level back then, I wasn't -- I wasn't a 6 decision maker so I don't know... 7 If there was some Colour of Right, that 8 would have been known to the higher levels in -- in our 9 organization and our approach and our planning may have 10 been different. 11 Q: Officer Korosec, as I look through 12 the logger tapes which appears under your Tab 17. 13 A: Tab? Pardon me? 14 Q: Tab 17. 15 A: 17. 17? 16 Q: 1-7. 17 A: The scribe notes you mean? 18 Q: Yes and it's Exhibit 426. I look 19 over on the first page at 20:56 hours and you're 20 mentioned there. I go through to page 5 and here it is 21 22:34 hours. 22 "Stan Korosec's arrived and began 23 briefing John Carson as Natives were 24 throwing flares at us and the 25 maintenance building had been broken
1511 into. Later Stan Korosec indicated 2 there was -- it was unsafe as people 3 were coming from everywhere. 4 Later at 22:34 Stan Korosec advised 5 that they wanted a meeting set for 6 10:00 a.m." 7 And I can go on numerous instances where 8 you are mentioned and it appears from just reading the 9 transcript, that the operation was being run by Carson, 10 Wright and yourself. 11 Is that a wrong reading? 12 A: That is a wrong reading, yes, sir. 13 Q: I see. So with all that there is in 14 transcripts it takes -- your of the position that you are 15 fairly low down as far as authority is concerned and you 16 were just following instructions as handed down? 17 A: Yes, sir. 18 Q: I see. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now as far even getting night vision 23 glasses was concerned, wasn't it you -- wasn't it your 24 idea to see about getting night vision glasses? 25 A: I don't -- I don't recall but I -- I
1521 don't think so. That call may have come or that request 2 may have been called from -- from some of the night shift 3 ERT leaders. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: I mean, they're the ones that are 6 down there at night time in dealing with the situation. 7 They -- they may have felt that they... 8 Q: So they call that information back to 9 you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then you would implement it? 12 A: I would -- brought it up to -- at a 13 meeting or to the Inspector saying that this is a 14 request. 15 Q: Now, as I read your police 16 involvement, it appears that you spent from 1985 to 1993 17 at Forest? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And around that time I take it 20 you would have gotten to know quite a few of the 21 individuals, First Nations individuals? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And from the time that you were at 24 Forest, can you tell this Commissioner of any one (1) 25 individual that you classified as sufficiently dangerous
1531 as to think that this person would come against the 2 police with firearms? 3 Can you think of any of them? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Specifically names? You know, we 8 knew of people in -- the entire commun -- when you first 9 get to a Detachment as a probationary, you're -- one of 10 the -- one the things in -- in -- your taught and when 11 you learn the area not only geographically but you're, 12 you know, you're told certain residences or certain 13 people you got to be careful when you're -- when you're 14 dealing with them, because they've been known to be 15 violent against police in the past. 16 So it's an officer safety issue. 17 Specifically, I don't know. 18 Q: Well, I'll tell you -- 19 A: As far as firearms is concerned, I 20 don't know. 21 Q: Well, I -- 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: If I could be of assistance to you. 24 Without going back to the transcript and the exact words, 25 I asked Officer Carson the same type of question and I
1541 put to him the names of all the individuals who were in 2 the camp and the Park at that time that we had. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And asked him individually whether or 5 not there was any concern about any of them and his 6 answer to each question was no. 7 Would this be consistent with your 8 understanding of the people? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 10 minute. Before you answer, yes, Ms. Jones...? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, it 12 may be more -- of more assistance if this Witness was 13 told who Mr. Ross was speaking of and he can say what his 14 knowledge, if any, of those individuals is. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, 16 that's going to take too much time and it's not worth the 17 answers. So what I'm going to do is just ask him... 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 20 Q: I guess sir, it's fair to say that 21 you had -- that you had a fair amount of contact with the 22 individuals in the Camp and in the Park between the 4th 23 and the 7th of September, 1995? 24 A: I had a fear of...? 25 Q: Amount of contact.
1551 A: A mode of contact? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Amount. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Amount. 4 THE WITNESS: Amount of contact, I'm 5 sorry. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 A fair amount of contact. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think he 9 misunderstood the question -- 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A fair amount -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Amount of 13 contact. 14 THE WITNESS: A fair amount? Myself, 15 personally? 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: There was only probably a few 20 individuals that I -- that I dealt with. 21 Q: You knew the people who were in the 22 Park? You knew a quite a few of them? 23 A: I did not know -- see, because I was 24 -- I was away from Forest for a couple of years, so -- 25 being down in Sombra from '93. I knew a couple of them,
1561 not a fair amount of them, no. 2 Q: Okay. But of those that you knew, 3 and of those that you dealt with, is it -- is it your 4 honest evidence that you didn't classify them as 5 dangerous in the extent that they -- they would be 6 physically dangerous to you? 7 A: Well, I -- you know, I think we had - 8 - there was concerns, obviously, but I mean you got to -- 9 you got to take it given in the context of what was going 10 on. I had -- I had some concerns for officer safety and 11 for mine, obviously, knowing some of the individuals 12 there. 13 But so I would have to say there was -- 14 there was some concern and it was never written off 15 completely that we're not going to have any problems 16 here. 17 Q: But -- but if there was a threat, it 18 was not a high level threat? 19 A: Well, I -- I don't know what you mean 20 by a high level threat. 21 Q: Perhaps you can then tell me and try 22 to explain to me, did you see this operation as -- as a 23 high level threat from a point of view of a -- of being 24 physically assaulted or being shot at by any of the 25 people who were in the Camp?
1571 A: Certainly in the summer of '95 if -- 2 if we felt that way we wouldn't be -- wouldn't be driving 3 around there, and the Park would have been -- the 4 Provincial Park would have been evacuated. 5 So from that perspective, no. 6 Q: No. And as a matter of fact, sir, I 7 will take it a little further and suggest to you that if 8 it were that the police were really concerned about 9 people shooting at them, they would never have gone down 10 at night the way the Crowd Management Unit attended on 11 the night of the 6th of September 1995. 12 A: Well that -- that was not my 13 decision, so I -- I don't know. 14 Q: Well I could imagine it was not your 15 decision, but you were a Sergeant at the same time, I 16 mean, you know, I -- I -- would you agree with me that it 17 would be foolhardy for any officer to really put people 18 in harm's way by sending them at night into an area where 19 there is suspicion that there's going to be shooting. 20 A: Where there was a -- a high degree of 21 suspicion or knowledge, yeah, I agree with you. 22 Q: Sure. So that is it fair to say that 23 the whole operation between the 4th and the 7th of 24 September was just to contain the individuals in the Park 25 as a number one step?
1581 A: Yes. 2 Q: And number two to get control of the 3 Park? 4 A: To get control of the Park? 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Physical control you mean? 7 Q: Yeah. To occupy -- for the police to 8 occupy -- or have a police presence within the Park. 9 A: No. That was not the mission. 10 From -- 11 Q: I see. 12 A: From September 4th on it was 13 Inspector Carson who told us was to contain and 14 negotiate. 15 Q: Contain and negotiate? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And in containing the Park, I take it 18 you were just following instructions which came from 19 Linton and from Carson as far as what -- what forces were 20 mobilized. 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: I see. Now I do not propose to go 23 back through those well worn tapes and the conversations 24 and the language, but I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 25 and I'm going to ask you, and please if you cannot help
1591 me, save me the trouble of having to go back through all 2 of these tapes. 3 The language that was used, would you 4 agree with me that the general public would not 5 understand the police meaning that you have given in your 6 evidence? 7 A: The general public? Probably not. 8 Q: For instance, if a member of the 9 press would overhear a conversation where it is that 10 Laroque (sic) is going to go up and he's going to be 11 doing them big time, that that would have -- that a 12 general understanding would be very different to what 13 police meant? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And also that we're going to amass an 16 army, that also would carry a very different impression 17 to what the police meant? 18 A: And if it's taken out of the context 19 in which it was -- in which it was stated -- 20 Q: Oh no, sir. I'm going to keep it in 21 the context, because I really like the context, I'm going 22 to admit that to you. I'm saying if you just take what 23 was said, and it was heard by the general public, it is 24 heard by the press -- 25 A: Sure.
1601 Q: -- it needs a police explanation -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in order to diffuse it. You would 4 agree with that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And if it were that members of the 7 First Nation Group had scanners, and they picked up that 8 information on scanners, it would be enough to provoke 9 serious concern, if not panic? 10 A: It could. 11 Q: Would you take it further and say it 12 probably would? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I would say it could. I don't know 17 if it probably would. I don't know. 18 Q: I see. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you're 20 going to be much longer, Mr. Ross, we're going to take a 21 break, if you're not then let's go until you finish. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 23 believe that it would be a good idea to take a break 24 because when I come back I know I can wrap up in ten (10) 25 minutes.
1611 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 2 then let's take a break. I don't want to push you. 3 Let's take a break for lunch now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until 2:15. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 1:12 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 2:17 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed, please be seated. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 13 we begin with -- continue with Mr. Ross, I just -- 14 there's one (1) small housekeeping matter. P-1332 is 15 Document Number 2005315 and not 2005135. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 17 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, 18 Commissioner, just a couple of wind-up matters. No need 19 to look at your watch, Mr. Commissioner, I'll be long 20 gone before you can write down the time. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 23 Q: Mr. Korosec, on the information that 24 has been handed out it is said -- it is stated that you 25 attended a First Nations awareness training course in
1621 1993? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. Did you find that course in 4 any way helpful for what you had to put up with in 1995? 5 A: I -- I knew it was helpful at the 6 time to me, given my -- my role as liaison officer with 7 the Walpole Island First Nation. I remember commenting 8 to the Staff Sergeant that it was -- it was very 9 informative. 10 I -- it probably was but specifically I -- 11 you know I can't recall exactly what was -- what was 12 covered in that, some of the history and -- and the 13 teachings. I'd say -- let's put it this way, it didn't 14 hurt, but it probably was somewhat helpful. 15 Q: Yeah. You see and as I look under 16 Tab 1, glancing through what appears to be your CV, the 17 only mention of this was on the last page where under 18 Professional Development it said First Nation Awareness 19 Training 1993. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And as I looked at the rest of your 22 CV I was wondering whether or not if it was sufficiently 23 important to -- to at least be honourably mentioned any 24 other place, or is it something that, you know, there -- 25 there is no market for after you leave the -- the police?
1631 A: Well, I mean, it's just the way I -- 2 I structured it; it was -- these are the -- these are the 3 -- the courses that I took. I just -- I just listed 4 them. It was back in 1993; I don't know how much more I 5 could expand upon it. 6 Q: No, that's fine. Now finally, sir, 7 on page 5 under Tab 17, which is the scribe notes, the 8 second to last entry. And let me tell you ahead where 9 I'm going, so you don't get surprised. 10 There's a mention here that the reader 11 would conclude that you were confirming that there was a 12 gun in one of the vehicles, and I believe it is the same 13 situation where somebody reported as the butt of what 14 appeared to be a gun. And I just want to confirm which 15 version is correct. 16 As I read it here, 22:38 hours, second 17 paragraph: 18 "Stan Korosec advised that they went to 19 a meeting set for 10:00 -- that they 20 want a meeting set for 10:00 a.m. 21 tomorrow, after all the Natives have 22 arrived. And he confirmed a gun was 23 observed in one of their vehicles 24 earlier." 25 A: Yes.
1641 Q: You actually observed a gun in one of 2 the vehicles? 3 A: Now, what the scribe wrote and what I 4 said, I don't know, I -- 5 Q: Well then let's forget about the 6 scribe for a minute. As far as you're concerned, you 7 didn't see a gun in any vehicle, did you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Thank you very much. Mr. 10 Commissioner -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much, Mr. Ross. 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's the end of my 14 ten (10) minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. Ross. 17 Mr. George...? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Thank you, Mr. 22 Commissioner. I'm just going to be a few moments. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1651 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JONATHON GEORGE: 2 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Korosec. 3 A: Good afternoon. 4 Q: My name is Jonathon George and I 5 represent the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation and 6 today I'm also appearing for the Chiefs of Ontario. 7 I'm just going to -- as I indicated, I'm 8 just going to be a few moments. 9 Now Mr. Rosenthal earlier asked you 10 whether or not you became aware of an individual by the 11 name of Cecil Bernard George. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I believe your answer was you 14 didn't become aware of that name until some time after 15 September the 6th; is that right? 16 A: Aware of the name? 17 Q: Of the name. 18 A: I don't know if I said I -- if I was 19 aware. I might have been aware of that name before, but 20 in the context of what -- what happened that night, I 21 didn't know it was Cecil Bernard George that was involved 22 or -- 23 Q: Okay. You didn't make a connection 24 that this person, Cecil Bernard George, was in fact the 25 one who was involved in the altercation in the sandy
1661 parking lot? 2 A: No, I don't -- I don't know when, if 3 ever, I was aware that that was him. 4 Q: In any event, Mr. Korosec, forgetting 5 about the name Cecil Bernard George, I take it you, like 6 others, including Inspector Carson and Mark Wright, 7 became aware that three (3) individuals were injured as a 8 result of the altercation on September the 6th? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Generally speaking -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- you were aware immediately 13 thereafter that someone had been shot, that a young 14 person was injured in the bus and was ultimately taken to 15 the hospital, and that a third person, forgetting about 16 the name Cecil Bernard George, you were aware of a third 17 person who was ultimately arrested, who also was injured 18 during that altercation? 19 A: Hmm. 20 Q: You became aware of it? 21 A: Yeah, I -- at -- but I -- I don't 22 know about the person on the bus being -- I don't -- 23 don't recall. There was so much going on afterwards, but 24 -- so the person on the bus, I'm not sure, but the other 25 -- other two (2), yes.
1671 Q: Okay. You were aware someone was 2 arrested? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that person who was arrested was 5 injured as a result of that altercation in the sandy 6 parking lot? 7 A: The person that was arrested was the 8 one that was injured? I -- 9 Q: You didn't know that? 10 A: I don't recall that, no, I don't. 11 Q: Now, what I want to know, Mr. 12 Korosec, is in the -- again, sticking with the immediate 13 aftermath of the shooting, and prior to the SIU becoming 14 engaged, were you directly involved in any attempts to 15 determine who exactly was involved in the arrest of Cecil 16 Bernard George, or that third person we are talking 17 about? 18 A: No, I was not involved in that. 19 Q: Okay. Were you aware of any attempts 20 by anyone else in the command staff to get to the bottom 21 of that? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Okay. Now again, just taking Mr. 24 Rosenthal's questions a little further, again sticking 25 with the immediate aftermath of the shooting, during the
1681 briefings or perhaps even informal encounters with 2 officers after the shooting, is it your testimony that 3 you didn't overhear anyone speak of their use of the 4 batons and their involvement in the arrest of that other 5 person? 6 A: Involved in the arrest of that 7 person? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: No. 10 Q: No? No one spoke to you about that; 11 you didn't overhear anything like that? 12 A: No, sir, not that I can recall. 13 Q: Okay. And just wrapping up, Mr. 14 Korosec, and just moving beyond the time immediately 15 after the shooting, do you know Vince George? 16 A: Pardon me? 17 Q: Do you know Vince George? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And at the time that you were 20 an ERT team leader, Vince George was not a member of the 21 ERT team? 22 A: No, he was not. 23 Q: Okay. Now Vince George, as you may 24 be aware, was here and gave testimony back on April the 25 5th.
1691 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: And he indicated that at some point 3 after September the 6th, Wade Lacroix had relayed to him 4 that he was in fact the first person to hit this person, 5 Cecil Bernard George. 6 Now my question for you is: Were you at 7 the local Detachment in the aftermath of September the 8 6th? Did you remain at the local Forest Detachment? 9 A: I wasn't there prior to. I was at -- 10 in Petrolia. 11 Q: Okay. I take it you still had 12 significant contact with many of the officers who were 13 involved in -- in the Ipperwash occurrence, after 14 September the 6th? 15 A: Only those officers that worked in -- 16 in the Petrolia Detachment area. There was many from 17 outside the areas. 18 Q: And did you, like Vince George, 19 overhear anything like that; participant officers 20 speaking of their involvement and their use of the baton 21 or whether or not they were involved with Cecil Bernard 22 George? 23 A: No, sir. We were -- we -- how it was 24 conveyed to us, that there was an SIU investigation going 25 on and nobody was to say anything to anybody.
1701 Q: Those are my questions, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. George. 5 Mr. Roy...? 6 Good afternoon. 7 MR. JULIAN ROY: Good afternoon, Mr. 8 Commissioner. Your counsel points out that it's not 9 4:30, so I suppose -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- I have no excuses if 12 I'm irritated, given the time of day. Mr. -- Mr. Millar 13 likes to be helpful like that just before we start cross- 14 examining. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 19 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Korosec. 20 A: Good afternoon. 21 Q: My name is Julian Roy and I'm one of 22 the lawyers for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto. All 23 right? 24 A: Can I -- the fan's here. I'm having 25 a little difficulty hearing, sir.
1711 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it is 2 difficult. We'll just try to keep our voice up. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'll try and speak up 4 without -- without shouting. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you 6 don't -- 7 THE WITNESS: Without yelling at me, 8 okay. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well, if you promise not 10 to yell back. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 13 Q: I want to ask you a little bit by way 14 of background in terms of your experience before you were 15 the ERT leader in connection with the Ipperwash incident. 16 All right? 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Because I take it this isn't the 19 first time that you were appointed as an ERT leader 20 concerning a serious incident, right? 21 A: Well we were trained in the fall of 22 '94 was when we first started as -- as an ERT team. 23 Q: Okay. So is that first time that the 24 ERT concept was instituted in 1994? 25 A: That's when we were trained; our
1721 Number One District Team. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: In the fall. 4 Q: So prior to that your district didn't 5 have an ERT team; is that right? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Okay. So you were on the ground 8 level in terms of -- of the Number One District ERT Team 9 being formed, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you were the first leader of that 12 ERT team, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. But by 1995 presumably 15 you would have responded to a number of significant 16 incidents prior to the Ipperwash incident? 17 A: We had a few calls; some -- some were 18 evidence searches, some witness protection, I believe, 19 and maybe a containment call or two (2). 20 Q: All right. So your -- your point is 21 is that you wouldn't have had any kind of experience 22 analogous to what you were facing in Ipperwash, correct? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: All right. And would there be -- 25 there would have been other districts or other levels
1731 that had more experienced ERT teams; is that right? 2 A: I -- I don't know when the other 3 teams were -- I know we trained up with the -- in the 4 fall of '94, I believe, the Two District Team was 5 training the same time as us. 6 Q: All right. So the first two (2) 7 responders in terms of ERT teams were District One and 8 District Two, correct? 9 A: Responders to? 10 Q: To this incident. In terms of the 11 operational plan as I -- as I recall, I don't want to 12 stick my nose in the documents -- 13 A: Yeah. There -- there were four (4) 14 teams that summer. 15 Q: Yeah. There were Three, Six, One and 16 Two, correct? 17 A: That -- that's correct. 18 Q: All right. And -- and they worked by 19 way of rotation where One and Two would be on call and 20 then they would go off and Three and Six would -- would 21 be on call. Is that right? 22 A: During August? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: During August we were in for four (4) 25 -- in for four (4) days and out for eight (8). So I
1741 think it was just the three (3) teams -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- One, two and Six maybe -- 4 Q: If we -- if we can move forward to 5 September, my recollection of the evidence is that -- 6 that One and Two were on duty together. Is that right? 7 A: Yeah. Once -- once we rolled into 8 the plan here, once the Park was taken over -- 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: -- yeah, there was One and Two, Three 11 and Six and there was two (2) teams at a time working 12 twelve (12) hour shifts. 13 Q: Okay. And in -- what about District 14 Three and Six, when were they formed, to your 15 recollection? 16 A: I don't know. 17 Q: All right. Did you have the sense 18 that -- that those teams were more experienced than 19 District 1 and 2 ERT's? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: Okay. Now, you've told me that -- 22 that District 1 ERT that you led was only formed about a 23 year prior to the Ipperwash incident; is that right? 24 A: In the fall of '94. 25 Q: Okay. Was there any discussion that
1751 you recall in terms of the planning leading up to this 2 because my understanding is you were in charge of all 3 four (4) District ERT's; is that right? 4 A: No, I was not in charge of them. 5 When we -- after -- after the Park was -- was occupied I 6 was not in -- in charge of them. I had set duties 7 according to the plan and I think I went through those in 8 -- in-chief, what roles and responsibilities I would have 9 as a -- as a coordinator if you want to call it that. 10 Q: All right. But you had overall 11 responsibility for all the four (4) ERT teams and you 12 were reporting directly to Inspector Carson concerning 13 their activities; isn't that right? 14 A: As -- yeah, as far as reporting their 15 activities and acquiring equipment for them and liaising 16 with whoever's in charge of logistics and -- and those -- 17 those types of things and with the Communications people. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: As far as directing them -- as far as 20 directing them operationally that -- that was not my 21 call. 22 Q: All right. Now, the other district 23 ERT leaders, did they have more experience than you? 24 A: As ERT leaders? 25 Q: Yes.
1761 A: Not -- not knowing when -- I don't -- 2 I don't know when they were formed. I don't. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Or when they had their training I 5 should say. 6 Q: All right. Now, even though you'd 7 only been an ERT leader for about a year previous to this 8 incident I take it that you would have been involved in 9 situations where you would have been in charge and 10 responsible for a number of officers where officer safety 11 was a serious concern, right? 12 A: At an ERT call? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Well, it depends on what we were -- 15 if it was an officer safety issue it would have been a 16 containment call and there would have been an Incident 17 Commander there. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: So the Incident Commander is 20 ultimately in charge. 21 Q: Yes, and through the Incident 22 Commander you would be responsible for your men and women 23 as part of the ERT; is that right? 24 A: Sure. 25 Q: And you would have carried a heavy
1771 burden of responsibility concerning their safety; isn't 2 that right? A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. So that -- bearing that 4 type of responsibility wasn't something that was totally 5 new to you as of the Ipperwash incident was it? 6 A: Well, no, and -- and as a sergeant as 7 well. I mean you have a -- you have a platoon, a team if 8 you want to call it that you're responsible for every 9 shift that -- that you're working on. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: It's the same thing. 12 Q: And in terms of being an ERT leader, 13 in addition to being responsible for the officers who 14 were in your command you would also be responsible -- 15 responsible for the civilians who were at the scene of 16 the incident that you were responding to; isn't that 17 correct? 18 A: Depending on the incident, yes. 19 Q: Okay. But you could have been, 20 right? 21 A: Depending on the incident, yes. 22 Q: All right. And nobody ever raised 23 any concerns about your level of performance prior to 24 this incident did they? 25 A: Not that I'm aware of anyway.
1781 Q: Okay. Now, I take it that -- that as 2 a OPP officer of many years long hours are not something 3 that are unusual to you are they? 4 A: No, there's many long hours, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And quite often or from time 6 to time you would be required to remain on -- on-duty 7 after the expiration of your shift; isn't that correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And from time to time you'd have to 10 operate without a lot of sleep; isn't that right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And I can imagine that from 13 time to time you might even have been woken up in the 14 middle of the night to come and attend for work; is that 15 right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, there's been -- you've given 18 some evidence concerning what it was precisely you were 19 responsible for in terms of the planning leading up to 20 the Ipperwash incident and I'm -- I'm talking about the 21 planning meeting that happened September 1st. 22 I want to clarify some of your evidence 23 about that because I'm -- I'm unclear as to what it was 24 precisely, and you might be able to tell from my 25 questioning earlier I'm a little bit confused as to what
1791 it was you were -- you were responsible for. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: If -- if you turn to page -- if you 4 go to Tab 14 which is the -- the memo, be concerning the 5 September 1st meeting, and if you -- are you on page 2 of 6 that memo please. 7 And if you go to the bottom of page 2, 8 three (3) paragraphs up. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "All the ERT teams fall under 11 Korosec." Do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And what was your 14 understanding as to what that responsibility entailed? 15 A: Well, I think, as we've -- we were 16 trying -- we were preparing an organizational chart -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- to see what -- where everybody 19 would -- some planning to be done, and so the -- the ERT 20 -- yeah, the ERT teams would fall under me, but under -- 21 later on, and it's in the plan, they'd fall under me for 22 these response -- my responsibilities for -- for the ERT 23 teams. 24 Q: All right. And presumably each ERT 25 team leader would be responsible for devising some kind
1801 of operational plan; is that right? 2 A: Yeah, they would -- they would -- 3 they assisted me in the operational plan once -- once we 4 had a -- kind of a general idea of where checkpoints and 5 -- and we sat down together and those kind of things and 6 then as well, while in operation, they would -- they 7 would have control over -- over their teams as to moving 8 checkpoints or moving personnel around -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- those kind of things. 11 Q: But as I understand your evidence, as 12 -- as -- from what you've just said, is that your 13 responsibilities go beyond just the administrative 14 matters, you're now reviewing and discussing operational 15 plans with the ERT team leaders; isn't that right? 16 A: Yeah. By operation -- this was prior 17 to, of course -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- in the planning stage; what radio 20 frequencies they work on, call signs -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- that kind of operational -- what 23 we called operational planning. 24 Q: Okay. And operational planning would 25 also include things like how many officers were to be
1811 deployed at a given time, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And operational planning would also 4 involve where the officers were going to be positioned, 5 right? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And the operational plan would be -- 8 would include some direction to the officers as to what 9 precisely they were going to do, right? 10 A: In general terms, yes. 11 Q: Yes. And -- and the operational plan 12 would try to give them some direction as to, if a certain 13 situation arose, what was expected of them, correct? 14 A: I don't know if we -- if we got into 15 that much detail because once this plan was put together, 16 it had to go to Inspector Carson for his approval. 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: I don't know if we got into that -- I 19 mean, if arrests were made, maybe where we transport -- 20 if they had to arrest somebody, who would do the 21 transporting, those kind of things. 22 Q: All right. And also there would be 23 instructions or direction given to ERT team officers 24 concerning what they were to do at -- at checkpoints, for 25 example?
1821 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that would fall under -- under 3 what we call an operational plan; is that right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Now, could you go to page 4 of 6 -- of the memo, please. And this again, this is the memo 7 September 1st which is Exhibit P-421, it's at Tab 2 -- 8 sorry, Tab 14 of Officer Korosec's documents. 9 If you go down to the fourth -- sorry, 10 yes, the fourth complete paragraph on page 4. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: "If the ERT goes in and they take the 15 place, we will move at least two (2) 16 ERT team units inside the perimeter of 17 the Park. Stan and TRU will come up 18 with this part of the operational 19 plan." 20 Do you see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. "Stan" is a reference to 23 you, is it not? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay, you're not aware of any other
1831 Stans that would be involved in this type of operational 2 planning? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. And what did you 5 understand you were to do with respect to this direction? 6 A: I believe this is what -- when I went 7 down with Ken Deane to the Park, this is what we were 8 looking at. Perimeters and where officers would be 9 placed. 10 That's assuming that -- I mean, this was 11 done of course, prior to, and we weren't sure what was 12 going to happen. 13 Q: Sure. 14 A: So I don't recall this specifically 15 but from reading of it. 16 Q: All right. And what you would have 17 been doing with Officer Deane is you would have been 18 taking a look at the lay of the land, correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you would have been seeing entry 21 points to the property -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- being the Park, yes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you would be looking at optimal
1841 positions from a tactical point of view as to where you 2 would be placing officers, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And this was placing officers inside 5 the Park, correct? 6 A: It says inside the perimeter of the 7 Park, so. 8 Q: This is before the takeover, 9 obviously. 10 A: Yeah, obviously and I -- I don't know 11 if when Ken and I discussed this whether -- I thought we 12 had took -- see where office -- officers would be on the 13 outside of the perimeter, the outside of the fence or at 14 access points is what we -- we kind of looked at. 15 Q: Okay. And -- and in terms of where 16 you were with Officer Deane, Acting Sergeant Deane, you 17 were reviewing the property with a view to -- where you 18 would place officers to prevent an occupation; is that 19 not correct? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: I'm not -- I'm not sure if that was 24 whether we were going to keep people out or -- or contain 25 people that were in.
1851 Q: All right, but they're not in there 2 yet, correct? This is September 1st. 3 A: I know but I don't know what we're 4 planning for. I don't recall if we're planning on we're 5 going to prevent people from coming into the Park or 6 they're already in the Park and we're trying to contain 7 it. 8 I don't -- I don't know -- I can't recall 9 what the reference -- reference was around this -- this 10 discussion here. 11 Q: Okay. Well do you recall a briefing 12 where you would have delivered the ERT operational plan 13 to the various ERT team leaders or members for that 14 matter? 15 A: We did sit down at some point and I - 16 - I don't know when, to present the plan to -- that's -- 17 that's been produced here to Inspector Carson for -- for 18 his approval and at some point the consensus among the 19 ERT -- ERT team leaders was this was where we should have 20 people, this is where checkpoints should be. 21 Q: All right. Well we -- we've 22 obviously were well familiar with operation -- or sorry, 23 Project Maple, the Project Maple document. Is that what 24 you're discussing? 25 A: Yes.
1861 Q: Okay. But in terms of -- this is how 2 it gets delivered to Inspector Carson for his review. 3 How does it get delivered to the ERT team leaders and to 4 the individual ERT team members as to what -- what is it 5 precisely they're suppose to be doing in any given 6 situation? 7 A: In any given -- well I mean -- I 8 think once the plan was -- was done up, everybody got a - 9 - got a copy of it obviously. The ERT leaders anyway and 10 so they all had to communicate to their -- to their 11 members what they were suppose to do. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: If you go to -- if -- do you have 16 Project Maple in front of you? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: That was a document that Commission 19 counsel directed you to. 20 A: Unless it's in this binder. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, it's a 22 separate. 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: I -- I apologize, Mr. 24 Commissioner. I thought that that was going to be still 25 -- because it was one of Commission counsel's documents.
1871 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. We could just ask 2 -- it's Exhibit P-424 if we could just provide it. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 8 Q: Could -- could you go to the page -- 9 I understand there's some disparities in terms of the 10 order of pages. Perhaps if you could go to the page 11 Emerg -- it's titled, Emergency Response Team's 12 Operational Plan. 13 A: Yes, I got it. 14 Q: All right. And under, Initial 15 Response, it reflects the District 1 and District 2 ERT 16 were going -- are going to be the immediate responders 17 and meet at Forest Detachment; is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And District Number 3 and 20 Number 6 are also going to be activated and presumably 21 they're going to be taking over from District 1 and 2 22 after the initial response; is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And the deployment, if you 25 look under the, Deployment, heading:
1881 "It's to contain the Provincial Park 2 and protect [sorry] prevent members 3 from entering the Park." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: "A total of twenty-four (24) ERT 6 members will set up an inner 7 perimeter." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you see that? Inside the Park 10 then. Does that assist you in terms of -- of what you 11 and -- and Sergeant Deane were preparing in terms of an 12 operational plan? 13 A: That -- I don't recall it but I -- I 14 don't disagree with what's -- what's here. 15 Q: All right. And -- and that just 16 makes sense to you from a common sense point of view and 17 from the discussions that you had with the command team 18 was that it was going to be preferable to keep people out 19 as opposed to trying to remove them after they're already 20 there; is that right? 21 A: I don't recall that specifically but 22 I -- I don't take issue with it. 23 Q: You don't take issue with it? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. If you can go back to the memo
1891 on -- on -- at Tab 14 then. Are you on -- if you can go 2 to page 1 of the Exhibit P-421. If you go to the 3 paragraph -- the first -- the second paragraph from the 4 bottom of the page, the last sentence. 5 "The problem is to keep the people out, 6 rather than trying to get them out." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So does that refresh your memory that 10 that issue of trying to keep people out as opposed to 11 removing them once they're there was something that was 12 being discussed among command circles, prior to the 13 incident? 14 A: It doesn't refresh my memory, but I 15 don't take issue with what's here. 16 Q: Thank you. And I've taken you to a 17 number of references to inner perimeter being set up. Do 18 you -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- recall that? And inner perimeter 21 means that you were setting up officers inside the Park 22 facing out to prevent people from coming in, ideally? 23 That only stands to reason, right? 24 A: Yeah. Oh, I -- yes. An inner 25 perimeter can mean anything. When you're talking a
1901 containment, there's an inner perimeter, there's an outer 2 perimeter. It Doesn't necessarily refer to a fence line 3 or anything, but in this case that's what it -- that's 4 what it sounds like. 5 Q: All right. Now, you as part of this 6 September 1st meeting, what prompts it is some 7 intelligence that the occupation of the Park is about to 8 happen, right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, in fact, the int -- intelligence 11 that you receive is that the occupation is going to 12 happen sometime toward the end of the Labour Day weekend, 13 right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. So you were given a 16 pretty clear heads-up, this is all going to happen, 17 correct? 18 A: It may happen, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And that certainly kicks your 20 operational planning into gear and that's why we had the 21 September 1st meeting, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, I also -- I'm going to suggest 24 to you that in terms of the discussions that were going 25 on at this meeting, that you were also on notice that
1911 women and children were potentially going to be involved 2 in the occupation and that was going to present some 3 difficulties for the officers. 4 A: I don't recall that. I recall 5 reading that somewhere in the package that that could be 6 the case. 7 Q: If you could go to page 3 of the 8 September 1st memo. And if you go to the fourth 9 paragraph. 10 A: Yes, I see that. 11 Q: "Kids and women may be used on the 12 front line by the Natives." 13 Do you see that? 14 A: Yes, I see that. 15 Q: All right. So -- because you're one 16 of the people who's responsible for the operational 17 planning of this inner perimeter, that's something -- 18 that piece of information is certainly going to be 19 something that got your attention, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And also, I'm going to suggest 22 to you, that you were aware that in terms of the numbers 23 that could become involved in the occupation, you were 24 talking about at least twenty (20) people; is that right? 25 A: I don't recall that from my own
1921 memory. 2 Q: All right. If you can go to 3 September -- the September 1st memo, page 1. If you go 4 to the -- under the title, Objective: To contain and 5 negotiate peaceful resolution. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: If you go to the second paragraph 8 after that heading. 9 "If the Park is taken over, possibly 10 approximately twenty (20) people will 11 enter the Park and not willing to 12 leave." 13 A: Yes, I see that. 14 Q: Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. So in terms of the 17 numbers of people that were potentially going to be 18 involved in this occupation, you were well aware that it 19 was in the order of magnitude of twenty (20) people, 20 right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Could be more, could be less, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So that's another piece of 25 information that would have been -- really got your
1931 attention in terms of your job to prepare the operational 2 plan, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I'm also going to suggest to you 5 that as of September 1st -- 1st, you were cognizant of 6 the potential for violence, at least from the perspective 7 of the police that there was a potential for violence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, I want to ask you some questions 10 about the events of the evening of September 4th, when 11 you and your officers left the Park. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Now, just so you 14 understand where my questions are coming from, I'm not in 15 any way -- you're not going to hear from my client any 16 criticism concerning your decision to leave the Park on 17 September 4th, all right? 18 A: Fine. 19 Q: Just so you understand where I'm 20 going. For whatever reason, in terms of how the 21 circumstances happened there, the planning that you 22 conducted didn't result in the OPP maintaining a presence 23 in the Park; isn't that fair? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And that's not an earthshattering
1941 proposition to you, sometimes you make plans and they 2 don't work, right? 3 A: We weren't exactly sure what was 4 going to -- you could only plan as much as you can plan, 5 but circumstances dictate what -- what you're going to do 6 next. 7 Q: Yes. But in any event, in terms of 8 this plan that didn't work out, you were the one who was 9 responsible for the plan, right? 10 A: This was one (1) portion of the plan 11 that some of us, we -- we put together -- 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: -- and submitted for -- for -- up to 14 Inspector Carson for approval, yes. 15 Q: Okay. But Inspector Carson wasn't in 16 the business of micro-managing what your particular job 17 was, he was going to ask his people in his command team 18 to come up with plans in the areas of their 19 responsibility and then he would just vet them, right? 20 A: Yeah, and if he didn't agree with 21 what the plan might have been he would have asked us to 22 change it -- 23 Q: Sure. 24 A: -- or make some corrections to it. 25 Q: Sure. But you understood that he was
1951 relying on you, to some extent, to devise this plan, 2 right? 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: Okay. We -- we -- I took you to the 5 reference earlier about Stan and TRU being responsible -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- for operational. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes. So in terms of this plan not 10 working out, it was your plan, to put it bluntly, that 11 didn't work out, correct? 12 A: Oh, I -- I don't think it was the 13 plan, it was the -- the circumstances were -- were 14 different, where things unfolded as they did -- 15 Q: Sure. 16 A: -- and obviously we couldn't do what 17 we had planned on doing so you -- we -- we modified and 18 changed afterward and -- and put our guys at the 19 checkpoints. And, you know, some of the rest of the plan 20 was -- was still the same, but initial response and 21 deployment was -- was -- had to be adapted to the 22 situation. 23 Q: No, I -- I appreciate that and that 24 was something that was also discussed at the September 25 1st meeting, that you couldn't be just locked into your
1961 plan, you had to -- have to deal with any situation as it 2 arises, correct? 3 A: And in fact we noted these positions 4 are subject to -- to change, to adjustments. 5 Q: Okay. Now, in any event, your plan, 6 however, didn't account for the circumstances, didn't 7 successfully account for the circumstances that arose 8 that -- that evening? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And again, I'm not being critical -- 11 A: I -- 12 Q: -- of you, sir. 13 A: I understand. 14 Q: And not only is it your plan but you 15 were also the one who is present when this all happens, 16 correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you're the one who's actually in 19 charge of all the OPP officers who are present? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you've testified to a number of 22 reasons as to why you did what you did, but as I 23 understand your evidence, one of the reasons, one of the 24 most important reasons, was that you were outnumbered at 25 the time; is that right?
1971 A: That, with many other reasons, but -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: -- certainly that was a factor. 4 Q: All right. Now, according to -- to 5 what we've gone through on September 1st, you already 6 knew the order of magnitude of the people that were going 7 to be coming into the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You -- you weren't surprised that you 10 were outnumbered, were you? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I -- I don't know if I was surprised. 15 I don't think I was surprised, no. 16 Q: Okay. So in terms of your 17 operational planning you would have been alive to the -- 18 the numbers of people that you expected and this issue 19 about being outnumbered, and the plan was supposed to 20 account for that, right? 21 A: The plan for that -- for that Labour 22 Day Monday, in fact the four (4) days we were there, from 23 before, from Inspector Carson, was maintain the same 24 number of -- of people, and that if nothing was going to 25 happen by the end of Labour Day, that night -- at some
1981 point that night, whether it be midnight or one o'clock 2 in the morning, we were -- we were going to go home. 3 There was -- there was no plans made for 4 additional members to be there, no instructions or no 5 instructions for another ERT team to be there after -- 6 after Labour Day. If all was quiet we would have packed 7 up and gone home. 8 Q: Okay. And -- and in terms of -- of 9 assembling all of those officers there, those four (4) 10 ERT teams, these officers don't come from thin air, 11 they're drawn from various detachments throughout the 12 general area; is that right? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And that places quite a demand on -- 15 on the local detachments, does it -- does it not? 16 A: Well not everybody's going to be 17 working at the same time and they're -- I know in our 18 district, when we get called out, they get -- they get 19 used to it and backfill with -- with overtime or -- or 20 whatever. 21 Q: Sure. But the longer a -- a 22 situation -- the longer it takes for a situation to 23 unfold, it starts to become pretty onerous on the local 24 detachments when you're deploying that -- that number of 25 people, isn't that right?
1991 A: There's -- not all ERT teams come 2 from -- from one (1) Detachment; there -- 3 Q: Sure. 4 A: -- may be two (2) from this 5 Detachment, so it's not -- it's not a huge burden on -- 6 on one Detachment where you're going to have twelve (12) 7 guys gone. 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: You know, it's going to be a couple 10 from here, maybe one (1) from there, one (1) from here -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: So it's -- it's not that -- but they 13 -- they end up covering for it because it's not the first 14 time that lots of officers have been called to -- to go 15 to something. 16 Q: And the longer the incident takes, 17 the more onerous that becomes in terms of coverage; isn't 18 that right? 19 A: The Detachment commanders make plans, 20 just like we had to make plans. 21 Q: All right. Now another reason that 22 you gave, in terms of -- of why you recommended to 23 Inspector Carson that -- that you withdraw from the Park, 24 was the presence of women and children. 25 A: Yes.
2001 Q: And again, that's something that you 2 had already accounted for in terms of developing your 3 operational plan? 4 A: Well, yes, but we didn't -- we didn't 5 count on the situation where there would be activity 6 taking place that was -- such as the windshield being 7 smashed or the flares being thrown at us, where you could 8 get into a -- a real physical confrontation where women 9 and children may get mixed up in it, and we didn't want 10 that to happen. 11 So say -- you can't plan for -- for every 12 circumstance. Certainly we didn't plan for that to 13 happen. 14 Q: I understand. But you -- you did 15 anticipate the potential for violence back in September 16 1st, we've already been through that. 17 A: There was always that possibility, 18 sure. 19 Q: Combined with women and children? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And combined with at least twenty 22 (20) people? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Now you -- the withdrawal 25 from the Park, as I understand your evidence, sort of
2011 happens in -- in two (2) stages. First of all, the 2 protesters enter the Park and you contact John Carson. 3 Mr. Millar took you through this in the scribe notes. 4 And -- and you contacted him and gave him 5 an update as to what was happening and he asked you to 6 maintain the maintenance shed or the bridge. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do -- do you want to take a look at 9 that? It's at Tab 17. 10 A: No, I recall that. 11 Q: All right. Tab 17, the entry at 12 20:56: 13 "Stan Korosec called back to Mark 14 Wright. Briefing and -- and spoke to 15 John Carson." 16 Do you see that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And then: 19 "Advised Stan Korosec to control 20 bridge." 21 Do you -- do you know what he was talking 22 about in terms of 'bridge'? 23 A: I think there was a -- there was a 24 creek or something running through, and I don't -- no, it 25 wasn't the middle of the Park, it was maybe a third of
2021 the way into the Park from -- from Army Camp Road, and 2 for vehicles to get across, there was -- there was bridge 3 there. 4 Q: I see. Now, in -- in terms of it's 5 location, how -- where was it in relation to the 6 maintenance shed; the bridge? 7 A: I don't -- I don't recall if you had 8 to cross the bridge to get to the maintenance building. 9 You might have to. I -- I don't recall. 10 Q: All right. From Army Camp Road? 11 A: If you enter the Park -- the way a 12 normal visitor would, you would probably have to cross 13 the bridge to get to the maintenance, although I'm not 14 sure. 15 Q: Okay. And you understood, when -- 16 when John Carson gave you that direction, that the bridge 17 had some sort of tactical or strategic significance? 18 A: I would assume so. 19 Q: Okay. You understand that, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And it's significance you 22 understood was a means of conveying vehicles from one 23 part of the Park to another, right? 24 A: I think he wanted us to -- to control 25 that so none of the occupier's vehicles could come to the
2031 other side of the Park, to the west side, I guess. 2 Q: Okay. And the maintenance shed, 3 you've already given evidence about its significance in 4 terms of what was in it and how it might be useful to the 5 OPP, and I don't want you to -- to go over that again. 6 But, in any event, even as -- as matters 7 were starting to unravel on September 4th, in the 8 evening, and the report that you gave back to John 9 Carson, you understood your direction that -- that you 10 were to do your best to try and maintain some sort of OPP 11 presence within the Park. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that's consistent with the parts 14 that I've taken you through in the September 1st meeting 15 and in the operational plan -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- that the whole idea of Project 18 Maple is for the OPP to -- whether or not the occupiers 19 are actually inside the Park, the OPP's got to be there 20 as well, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I think you told Mr. Millar that 23 in fact there was no operational plan for going in and 24 taking back the Park if the OPP had left and the 25 occupiers had it, right?
2041 A: That's correct. 2 Q: Okay. So in terms of the eggs being 3 in a particular basket, the eggs of the OPP seemed to be 4 in the basket of maintaining a presence in the Park, 5 right? 6 A: Yes. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, you talked -- you gave evidence 11 about how you experienced that event of that 12 confrontation in the evening of September 4th, and it 13 still upsets you today, right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what upsets you about it, partly, 16 is the feeling of -- of not having control of the 17 situation, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: The violence that you witnessed in 20 terms of the rear windshield being broken out of the OPP 21 cruiser, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And also the concern for the safety 24 of the women and children, right? 25 A: Yes.
2051 Q: And you were also concerned about 2 your -- the safety of your own officers, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And because you're the man in charge, 5 you're the one who's responsible for the safety of all 6 these individuals, right? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, I'm going to suggest to you what 9 -- what also upsets you, in terms of how this incident 10 happened, was the importance of maintaining a presence in 11 the Park, in terms of the expectations of you and the 12 planning that went into this operation, that it upsets 13 you that you weren't able to -- to maintain the presence 14 in the Park as was planned. 15 A: At that point I -- that -- that was 16 not a concern to me at all. I -- at that point I did not 17 care at all about that. 18 Q: And at "that point" you're talking 19 about the evening of September 4th, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: But in the hours after you left the 22 Park you became -- you came to appreciate the 23 significance of the OPP not having a presence in the Park 24 and that -- it's importance for the operational plan? 25 A: It didn't cross my mind, I don't
2061 think, at all. 2 Q: So you never felt any -- any need to 3 sort of explain your actions or justify what you did that 4 night? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. If you could turn up P-1306. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: It's one of the loose documents in 11 your -- in your -- I think it's in your blue folder. 12 It's one of the -- the transcripts that were -- that were 13 not part of the original binder, Mr. Commissioner. 14 And this is the one, it's September 5th, 15 1995, Tape 1, Track number 2. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: It's Exhibit P-1306. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 22 Q: Now if you -- if you look under the 23 heading that says, "Background Conversation." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You've identified UK-1 as yourself,
2071 right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And this is a background conversation 4 where you're talking to somebody; is that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And I take it from the type of 7 language that you're using there, and the content of what 8 you're saying -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- you're not -- this isn't some kind 11 of formal report to John Carson, is it? 12 A: I don't -- I doubt it. 13 Q: Okay. And you'd already given a 14 debrief -- you'd already been debriefed by John Carson 15 the night before as to what happened in the Park, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And Mark Wright was there, too, 18 right? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: Yes. And all the command -- the 21 significant command team members would have had an 22 understanding from -- in terms of the debriefing, what 23 had happened the night before, right? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2081 A: Well, certainly Inspector Carson and 2 if Mark Wright was there; I don't know if anybody else 3 was aware of all the details. 4 Q: All right. And you're -- you've 5 already told me you're not reporting to John Carson in 6 this background conversation. And you're likely not 7 reporting to Mark Wright about this, are you? 8 A: I don't know who I'm talking to here. 9 Q: Okay. It's not somebody that you 10 formally report to, is it? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: Well who else would you formally 13 report to, other than Mark Wright or John Carson? 14 A: Yeah. But I don't know who I'm 15 talking to in this conversation, so. 16 Q: Yes. But what we can -- because it's 17 not Mark Wright or John Carson, we know it's not somebody 18 who's north of you in the chain of command, is it? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Yeah. You're talking to somebody 21 that you're not under any kind of duty or obligation to 22 give an account of what you did at the Park the night 23 before, right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And you're giving some kind of
2091 explanation as to what happened, right? 2 A: Partially, yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And I -- I'm going to suggest 4 to you that what you're doing here is out of some kind of 5 need to give an explanation to your fellow officers as to 6 why you weren't able to hold up your end in terms of what 7 the operational plan was for maintaining a presence in 8 the Park. 9 A: I don't think so. I think I'm just - 10 - just kind of giving him a brief -- a brief -- not a 11 briefing but just a brief chatter about -- about -- 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: -- partially about what happened that 14 night in the Park. 15 Q: And the brief chatter includes: 16 "He's about six (6) foot -- six four 17 (6'4"), got to be close to three 18 hundred (300) pounds and he's the one 19 that was nose to nose with on the beach 20 in that little operation there. He 21 just -- he came out of fucking nowhere. 22 What the fuck is going here? Crash 23 with his walking stick. Smashed the 24 back window of the cruiser." 25 Do you see that?
2101 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what you're emphasizing in terms 3 of talking to this officer that you don't report to is 4 you're giving an explanation as to how dangerous the 5 situation was, right? 6 A: I was just telling him what happened. 7 Q: And how really you wanted to effect 8 an arrest but -- but then the fight would have been on, 9 right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you're kind of giving an 12 explanation for why you didn't effect arrest when 13 somebody's breaking the window of a cruiser right in 14 front of you, right? 15 A: Yeah. I'm not trying -- I -- I don't 16 think from this conversation I'm trying to justify 17 anything or justify my actions because I -- I didn't have 18 to to whoever I was talking to. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: So it wasn't -- because it wasn't an 21 official briefing or anything, I'm just telling him this 22 is what -- what happened that night. 23 Q: Now, you -- you respected John Carson 24 as an Incident Commander didn't you? 25 A: Yes.
2111 Q: And as a leader, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it's often said that part of a 4 subordinate's job is to make their boss look good, right? 5 Are you familiar with that notion? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you would have understood that -- 8 that part of what your responsibilities included was to 9 try and do your best to make your boss look like he was 10 in control of the situation? 11 A: No, I would not say that. 12 Q: You understood that if you were able 13 to -- to maintain control of the -- or maintain an OPP 14 presence in the Park that would reflect well on your -- 15 on you, correct? 16 A: No. 17 Q: That would reflect well on your 18 supervisor? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you have any awareness that John 21 Carson was going to have to account to his superiors 22 concerning why Project Maple wasn't -- could not be 23 implemented in terms of maintaining an OPP presence in 24 the Park? 25 A: You know I -- I really didn't care
2121 about what anybody thought about my actions and -- and my 2 -- my conversations with John about what happened in the 3 Park that night and -- and that's -- that if it made 4 somebody look -- I -- I didn't care. My -- I relayed 5 what my concerns were about that night and what the 6 ramifications were after and nobody got hurt. 7 Q: Again, sir, I'm not being critical of 8 you -- 9 A: I know and neither am I -- 10 Q: -- what you did. 11 A: --but I'm just telling you that what 12 anybody thought, even if some of my own -- even if some 13 of my own ERT members thought it wasn't the right move to 14 get out the -- that didn't matter to me. They were not 15 in my shoes. They were not -- had the responsibility 16 that I had that night and I had no problem with what we 17 did that night. 18 Q: Okay. I appreciate your evidence but 19 my -- my question was, did you understand that John 20 Carson was going to have to account to his superior 21 concerning -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- the failure to maintain a presence 24 in the Park? 25 A: No.
2131 Q: All right. If you could -- this is a 2 -- a document I gave late notice on because of some 3 questions that arose in Mr. Rosenthal's questioning and 4 that's Tab 6 of Exhibit 444A, if the Registrar could 5 please put that in front of the Witness. I apologize, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 8 That's fine. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: These are 13 the tapes? The -- 14 MR. JULIAN ROY: These are the original 15 logger tapes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: Exhibit 444A. We 18 haven't heard about them for a long time. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know them 20 almost off by heart but carry on. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 23 Q: Are you at Tab 6? 24 A: No. 25 Q: It'll be a great relief to the -- to
2141 Mr. Commissioner, that I'm not going to ask for the tape 2 to be actually played. 3 But if you could look at the first couple 4 of lines, there's somebody identifies themselves as 5 Sergeant Korosec. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you're not taking any issue that 8 that's you, right? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Okay. Now, if you could -- have you 11 had an opportunity to look at this document? What I'd 12 like you to do is actually -- if you could read the first 13 page and over to the part where Carson takes over, when 14 Carson says "hello", about half way down the second page, 15 page 22, if you could read that -- that portion please. 16 A: Where Carson says, "hello"? 17 Q: Up till that part. 18 A: Oh, okay. 19 Q: If you can read from the beginning up 20 to that part. 21 A: Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Okay.
2151 Q: All right. Now in terms of situating 2 this conversation in -- in the whole series of events, 3 this is the following morning after you and the officers 4 leave the Park on September 4th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you're manning the phones as 7 you've discussed in the -- in the trailer, correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And this is a phone that this comes 10 in on, isn't that right? 11 A: Yes, it sounds like it. 12 Q: Okay. And there was a phone with a - 13 - you didn't have a cordless phone I take it in the 14 trailer, did you? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. So your recollection is that 17 it's a phone with a cord on it, right ? 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: Okay. And -- and the phone would 20 have been located in that communications area on the 21 right side of the trailer as you enter, right? 22 A: If I was -- if I was in the trailer, 23 I mean, there were times where I was inside the 24 Detachment too. 25
2161 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yeah. I could have been inside the 4 Detachment or -- or in the -- or in the trailer. I don't 5 know where I was. 6 Q: Okay. But it appears from the 7 conversation that you hand over the phone to John Carson, 8 right? 9 A: "I'll get you -- I'll get you on the 10 Inspector right now." 11 Q: It's not a situation where you put 12 him on hold for example? 13 A: I -- I don't know. That's what I'm 14 trying to figure out if I -- when I say "I'll get you on 15 the Inspector right now" whether I put it on hold and he 16 picked it up somewhere else, I don't know. 17 Q: Okay. Now, in terms of the 18 conversation, the part of the transcript that I've asked 19 you to read at this stage, you exchange a number of 20 pleasantries with -- with Mr. Parkin and halfway down the 21 page 21, you say: 22 "Oh yeah, well we're -- it's actually 23 kind of settled down now, uh, the plans 24 kicked into effect so everybody's out 25 doing their thing."
2171 Do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And actually above -- the line above 4 that, you say: 5 "Well I'm lying saying -- when I'm 6 saying I'm okay, but..." 7 And then you laugh. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that's likely when you say you're 10 not -- when you allude to being not okay, you're 11 referring to what happened the night before, right? 12 A: Yeah. I imagine so. 13 Q: Yeah. And then you mentioned that 14 everything's sort of settled down, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And Parkin then tells you he wants to 17 speak to Inspector Carson, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then there's a reference to 20 somebody in the background saying, "he's out in the 21 garage"? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then you're saying to that person 24 that Superintendent Parkin's on the phone for him. Do 25 you see that?
2181 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then you say: 3 "We're just getting him now. He's out 4 in the garage." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then, does that assist you in 7 terms of where you might have taken this call? 8 A: No. Well, the garage was attached to 9 the Detachment or it was where the -- where the trailer 10 was parked was outside, next to the garage. 11 So I -- I don't know where I was when I 12 took this call. 13 Q: Okay. So it's impossible for you to 14 tell whether or not you were physically with John Carson 15 as he continued this call after? 16 But you may have been? 17 A: Yeah, I'm sure Tony Parkin was the 18 superintendent, I think, at the time for the District and 19 I don't think Inspector Carson would have taken the call 20 in the radio room in the Command Post, only because of 21 all the noise there. And I'm -- he may have taken it in 22 the back -- in the back of the trailer where there's an 23 office back there and I put it on hold for him, I don't 24 know. 25 I don't think he would have taken the call
2191 or talked with inspect -- with the Superintendent in such 2 a public and busy area. 3 Q: Okay. And in any event, on the 4 second line on -- on page 22. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Inspector Parkin says, somewhat 7 innocuously: 8 "How -- so how are you keeping?" 9 You see that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then you say: 12 "Oh, not bad, not bad. It was a little 13 tense last night." 14 Do you -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- see that? And again, you're 17 referring to the night before, in terms of leaving the 18 Park; is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then Parkin says, "Yeah". And 21 then you go on to give an account as to what happened 22 when you left the Park. Do you see that? 23 A: Just -- yeah, a brief -- very brief. 24 Q: Now, Inspector Parkin wasn't asking 25 you to explain to you what happened, was he?
2201 A: No. 2 Q: He was just saying, how are you 3 keeping, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And for whatever reason, you went on 6 and gave an explanation as to why you left the Park, 7 right? 8 A: I give him a couple of lines. Not 9 the whole briefing. 10 Q: Yes. But the couple of lines 11 included that "they outnumbered us", right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And at the one point there, "so we 14 had no choice but be safe"; you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So again that's -- in terms of the 17 two (2) lines that you're giving him, there are two (2) 18 explanations that are given in terms of why you left the 19 Park, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Inspector Parkin has not asked 22 you for an account, right? 23 A: No. 24 Q: But you're offering it? 25 A: Yes.
2211 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, in 2 terms of simil -- consistent with the earlier transcript 3 that I took you to, that you felt being the one who was 4 there at the time and the one who was responsible for 5 planning, that you had some -- felt some responsibility 6 in terms of why the OPP were not able to maintain a 7 presence in the Park, and you felt a need that you had to 8 give some explanation. 9 A: The only explanation I had to give 10 was to Inspector Carson which I did, well, on the phone 11 with him that night, or the next day. I didn't feel like 12 I had to justify anything to anyone else and there was no 13 need for it. 14 Q: All right. Now, if you could to -- 15 there's some portions of the conversation between Parkin 16 and Carson that I'd like to direct you to, to see if that 17 refreshes your memory as to whether or not you might have 18 been present and heard the John Carson side of the 19 conversation. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll ask 21 him that? Ask him that question. 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well, he doesn't recall 23 right now and I'd like to refresh -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- his memory about
2221 that. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If he heard 3 it. 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: If he doesn't remember, 5 that's -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- that's fine, but I'd 8 like that opportunity, Mr. Commissioner. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 11 Q: If you could go to page 28 and 29. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: If you go about half way down that 16 page. Carson says as follows: 17 "Ah, none, ah, it's just -- it's their 18 land. The Park and Matheson Drive, ah, 19 our information is we -- okay, just to 20 give you the kind of Reader's Digest 21 version of what happened last night, 22 like, ah, they're, like, they swarmed 23 in there and they got into a verbal 24 barrage. A back window of a cruiser 25 was, ah, smashed out. Ah, there was a
2231 flare thrown at one of our guys and..." 2 Do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Does that refresh your memory as to 5 whether or not you might have heard the John Carson side 6 of this conversation? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: Okay. Page 35, please. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, this 13 Witness' evidence is that he doesn't recall this call. 14 And further, he said it's unlikely that John Carson would 15 have taken this call in an area he was at. 16 And so to go through this exercise now 17 with this Witness, I'm going to suggest to you, is simply 18 for the purpose of reading out onto the transcript and 19 onto the record excerpts from a call that this Witness 20 knows nothing about. 21 I don't see, Mr. Commissioner, how this is 22 going to assist you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 24 not sure either, but he's asking him if it's helping him, 25 and if it isn't then it isn't. I --
2241 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well, he can't -- he -- 2 he -- I did -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 4 do you have any observations? I can't see how this is 5 helping, quite frankly. I'm not sure how it's hurting 6 either so I'm not -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, but I think what 8 Mr. Roy's simply trying to do is to ask him if -- if -- 9 he can't remember the call but does this assist him, and 10 I think that's an appropriate -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. That's 12 why I think it's -- 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: It may up being a 14 fruitless exercise but I -- I do -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: It has some 17 significance. This -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 19 indicated you wouldn't be very long so that's why I'm 20 assuming this isn't going to take all that long. I had 21 heard that your estimate at the time was considerably 22 shorter than originally, so I'm assuming that you don't 23 have much longer. 24 Is that a fair assumption on my part, Mr. 25 Roy?
2251 MR. JULIAN ROY: It's -- it is fair. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. JULIAN ROY: I -- I don't think -- if 4 we broke at the ordinary time for the afternoon break, I 5 don't think I'd be finished. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well 7 you've been about an hour, so that's fine. Carry on. 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: I -- I think it's -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You started 10 about 2:25 and you're almost at 3:25, so you're almost an 11 hour but -- 12 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yeah. I think I'd -- 13 I'd given a revised estimate of an hour to an hour and a 14 half, I think. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 16 fine. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: So I don't think I'll 18 finish it by 3:30 but -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 We'll continue until you do. Carry on. We're not in any 21 great hurry because I understand that -- well you'll hear 22 later, I understand that our next witness may not be 23 available so I'm not pushing you. But neither do I want 24 that to be a reason for you to extend your examination 25 into the afternoon, because we do have another way to
2261 spend the time. Carry on. 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: For once we're not a 3 hurry and I -- I -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Not in a 5 hurry. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 8 Q: All right. Page 35 and 36 of the 9 transcript? There's a question from -- from Inspector 10 Parkin that Carson answers on the following page? 11 "Ah, well, it was a matter of safety. 12 Like somebody is going to get their 13 head caved in if we stayed in there." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then the next thing that John 17 Carson says is: 18 "Because they were really getting irate 19 with our guys and, ah, ah, I would 20 suggest the damage to the cruiser was, 21 you know, indicative of what more we 22 were going to get into." 23 Do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then further down:
2271 "No, no, they smashed the back window 2 out of it." 3 And then his next utterance is: 4 "I'm not sure what -- what, you know, 5 device they used but somehow or another 6 they smashed -- threw a rock through it 7 or a baseball bat or something, but 8 they were prepared to take us on at 9 that point and we just didn't have the 10 numbers to do it because we had -- all 11 we had was the 1 District ERT at that 12 time with ah -- with ah eight (8) in 13 one (1), you know, ah, ah." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, Mr. 17 Roy, this is Mr. Carson, right? This is Inspector 18 Carson -- 19 MR. JULIAN ROY: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- explaining 21 to Superintendent Parkin? 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: That's right. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we don't 24 know if he was there or heard it. 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: And I'm canvassing with
2281 him whether or not this refreshes his memory that he 2 heard this side of the conversation -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That he 4 heard it. 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- with John Carson. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 7 fine. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 10 Q: Does this refresh your memory? 11 A: I did not -- I don't recall hearing 12 this conversation at all. 13 Q: Okay. One (1) last very short entry 14 on page 42, if I could ask you about? Page 42. 15 About halfway down John Carson says as 16 follows: 17 "Well, that's right and we -- we could 18 have maintained the Park if we had 19 every, you know, the numbers that 20 people have here now. At that time we 21 probably could have maintained it but, 22 you know, it would have -- it would 23 have meant somebody getting hurt last 24 night." 25 Do you see that?
2291 A: Yes, I see it. 2 Q: Does that refresh your memory? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Were you present when Chief 5 Superintendent Coles attended at the trailer on the 6 afternoon of September 6th? 7 A: I was there. I don't recall when he 8 showed up or if he showed up. 9 Q: Okay. Do you remember the meeting 10 that he had with John Carson, being a closed door 11 meeting? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: Do you remember any discussion during 14 Chief Superintendent Coles attendance concerning whether 15 or not the scribe would attend the meeting between 16 Superintendent -- 17 A: No, sir. 18 Q: -- Coles and John Carson? 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: What was you understanding of the 21 practice concerning where the scribe was to be located, 22 vis-a-vis an Incident Commander, during an incident? 23 A: I -- I don't know what -- what 24 Inspector Carson's instructions were as far as scribing. 25 Q: Were there parts of -- of Inspector
2301 Carson's interactions with people that -- for which he 2 did not have the scribe in attendance? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: The term 'Road Warrior', is that 5 something you're familiar with? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And what does it refer to? 8 A: That's a -- it was a term used to 9 describe constables, uniformed officers, road officers, 10 the guys who worked the road, not specialty units or 11 detectives or anything. They were just the regular guys 12 out on the road. 13 Q: I want to ask you about your 14 conversation at Tab 21, the -- with the defective pager 15 from McLean Hunter. It's at Tab 21. It's P-1154. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now you've -- in terms of your 18 descriptions of how this conversation unfolded, you've 19 described being woken up in the middle of the night. Is 20 that fair? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Now, as I understand how 23 this conversation takes place, this isn't a phone call 24 that gets placed to your hotel room, that wakes you up 25 from a dead sleep, does it?
2311 A: No, I believe it was my pager went 2 off. 3 Q: Okay. So it's your pager that would 4 have woken you up from a dead sleep, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then you would have gathered 7 yourself together and checked the message on the pager, 8 right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So that would have taken you several 11 minutes to do that, right? 12 A: I don't think it would have taken 13 several minutes. It's a matter of looking at it and see 14 what it said, or if it was a number, and I would have 15 called it up. If my pager goes off it's usually 16 something serious. 17 Q: Okay. And then after listening to or 18 looking at your pager after being woken up, you would 19 have taken a few minutes to dial the number and call into 20 the Command Post, correct? 21 A: It would have taken thirty (30) 22 seconds to dial into the Command Post, yeah. 23 Q: All right. But the bottom line is 24 you're not talking a few seconds out of being fast asleep 25 are you?
2321 A: Pretty close, probably. 2 Q: Okay. I'm going to suggest to you, 3 sir, that in terms of picking up the pager message, 4 gathering yourself together and making a phone call, 5 that's going to be several minutes, is it not? 6 A: I probably would have called in right 7 away. 8 Q: Now, in your evidence, the last time 9 we were here, you said that even though you recognized 10 that as your voice, you said, It's not me. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you remember that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you also said that it doesn't 15 look good in terms of what's recorded here. 16 A: If you just read it, someone not 17 familiar with what was happening before or after at the 18 time, yeah, it doesn't look good. 19 Q: And in terms of it -- it being not 20 you, as -- as you described it, what -- what you're 21 saying is that you haven't heard yourself talking in this 22 way either before this incident or since; is that 23 correct? 24 A: No. It's not the hear myself talking 25 that way, it's just -- I guess I've never heard myself
2331 half asleep on a -- on a tape recording before, and just 2 the manner and demeanor. 3 The phone call before was more likely how 4 I would normally handle it when the same information was 5 presented to me, it was administrative and matter of fact 6 and get them fixed and here's who was going to fix the 7 windshields on the cruiser. 8 We went back to the battery conversation 9 and that was it. 10 Q: But in terms of what you actually 11 say, what's reflected in Exhibit P-1154 doesn't sound 12 like the kind of person that you are, does it? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And you've already told us that you, 15 in terms of the way you have conducted yourself as a 16 police officer, you're the kind of officer that likes to 17 avoid confrontation, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you told us what went in -- was 20 going through your mind in terms of what happened 21 September 4th. And your actions on that evening seem 22 consistent with the idea that you try and avoid 23 confrontation? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So it's not in term -- it's not in
2341 your style to talk about amassing armies, is it? 2 A: No. 3 Q: But nevertheless, that's exactly what 4 you're saying in Exhibit 11 -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- 54. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, you've been stressed out in 9 terms of doing your job as a police officer before this 10 conversation, right? 11 A: Well, stressed out, but there's many 12 stressful situations, sure. 13 Q: Sure. And you've been tired before, 14 when you've worked as a police officer, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And even though you've been stressed 17 out and tired, you don't hear yourself talking like 18 you're talking here, right? 19 A: I don't understand the question. 20 Q: Sure. Despite the fact that as a 21 police officer you've been in many stressful, intense 22 situations -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and have been tired -- 25 A: Yes.
2351 Q: -- you haven't heard yourself talking 2 like you're talking here in Exhibit 1154? 3 A: As far as hearing a tape recording of 4 myself talking like that? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: No. 7 Q: But you don't -- you don't recall 8 ever talking like this in response to being stressed or 9 tired in the course of doing your duties as a police 10 officer? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I don't understand. 15 Q: Do you always talk about amassing 16 armies and -- 17 A: No, no, no. 18 Q: -- doing people when you're stressed 19 out and tired on the job? 20 A: No, no. 21 Q: No. So it's not the being stressed 22 out and tired that's causing you to talk about amassing 23 armies and doing people, is it? 24 A: I don't know what I was saying that 25 night because I was tired. I had two (2) hours sleep
2361 over a two (2) day period. 2 Q: Well I'm going to suggest to you that 3 it's a little more than just being tired and stressed out 4 that's causing you to say -- talk about amassing armies 5 and doing people. 6 A: I don't know what else it would be. 7 Q: All right. Now, in terms of the 8 expression, "Do these guys," in -- in Exhibit 11, P, 54. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: At a minimum, you're talking about 11 effecting an arrest, are you not? 12 A: In -- oh, in this same conversation? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: At a minimum, you're talking about 16 effecting an arrest, right? 17 A: No, that's what I was talking about. 18 Q: Yeah. And the people that you're 19 talking about arresting, you knew that they were in the 20 Park, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And given what you had seen in terms 23 of September 4th, it wasn't your expectation that 24 effecting an arrest within the Park was going to happen 25 without some level of force being applied, right?
2371 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: It was your expectation that people 6 in the Park were just going to submit to arrest if you 7 asked them to? 8 A: No. There could have been other ways 9 of being done. I -- you know, again, in the context -- 10 context of the phone call I was saying a lot of things 11 there. 12 Q: Okay. Their day will -- 13 A: I wasn't clearly thinking about how 14 an arrest would be done. 15 Q: Okay. "Their day will come." What 16 does that mean? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: It doesn't mean their day in Court, 19 does it? 20 A: The day they -- I don't know. The 21 day they get arrested, I don't know. 22 Q: You mentioned being all hyped-up, 23 that you want to stop talking about this 'cause you're 24 all hyped-up. 25 A: I might get all hyped-up.
2381 Q: Yeah. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: You don't get all hyped-up about 4 people going to Court, do you? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: No. I think I was referring to the 9 fact that the officers had the rocks thrown at them and 10 the boulders thrown at them, that that's what I was 11 getting hyped up about. 12 Q: Okay. What you're actually getting 13 hyped about is: 14 "A real fucking army and do this -- do 15 these fuckers big time, but I don't 16 want to talk about it because I'll get 17 all hyped up." 18 What you're getting hyped up about is: 19 "The real fucking army and doing these 20 fuckers big time." 21 A: I -- I don't know. 22 Q: And you don't get all hyped about 23 issuing a promise to appear or a summons to a -- for a 24 summary charge, do you? 25 A: That's not the context we're -- we're
2391 talking about here, at this time of night and in that 2 situation, again when we talk about the rocks being 3 thrown at the guys, yeah, I got very upset and very 4 emotional about it. 5 Q: And in being emotional and being 6 upset about it what you're talking about is applying 7 force to these individuals? 8 A: No, I wanted them -- it sounds from 9 that I wanted them arrested and charged for what they 10 did, for assaulting police. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, you mentioned in your evidence, 15 one (1) of the things that you said was that you weren't 16 talking like this to an inspector at a formal briefing. 17 Do you remember that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And your point was that the type of 20 language that you might use in front of the Inspector or 21 at a formal briefing might be different than this, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And your point was that 24 if you're just talking officer to officer, to one (1) of 25 your subordinates, for example, it might be appropriate
2401 to talk like this, right? 2 A: No, I'm not suggesting that, it -- 3 it's just how the phone call happened, and who answered 4 the phone happened to be a constable there. 5 Q: All right. So it would be 6 inappropriate to talk like this to a constable? 7 A: I -- I'm saying to a constable he -- 8 this was probably not -- he probably -- well, I can tell 9 from -- from listening to the tape and from what he says 10 there that he knows I'm half asleep and that it's -- it's 11 not like I was -- yeah, it's not like I was talking to 12 someone in charge of something, that we want to get this 13 done or something. He just happened to answer the phone. 14 Q: Okay. So would part of the reason 15 why it's no big deal is because it's a subordinate 16 officer, right? 17 A: Amongst other things, yes. 18 Q: Okay. So if it's no big deal to talk 19 like this in front of a subordinate officer, you might 20 very well have spoken in this fashion in front of other 21 subordinate officers? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Well, if there's nothing 24 inappropriate about it, why not? 25 A: It -- again, this call was -- was --
2411 I clearly was not thinking properly or awake and -- and 2 he happened to be the one answering the phone call. 3 Yeah, I'd been through a lot in the last couple of days 4 with no sleep. Clearly, I'm talking to -- in -- in the 5 phone call before that I'm talking to a -- a radio 6 operator and I think I heard Jacklin in the background 7 there. 8 And I don't make any -- I don't go on 9 about this and -- and the profanities and everything. 10 It's very clear, I'm very -- I'm very matter of fact 11 about it, Get the cars fixed, this is who does it. 12 Q: You didn't get a lot of sleep 13 September 5th into September 6th, did you? 14 A: From this night? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: About five (5) hours. 17 Q: Okay. And that's not a lot of sleep, 18 correct? 19 A: A lot more than two (2). 20 Q: All right. And the type of stress 21 that you would have been -- been facing on September 6th 22 would have been similar to the pressures that you were 23 facing September 5th, right? 24 A: It was different. I mean when you -- 25 when you go back into work you try and get back into --
2421 back into what you're supposed to do, you get back into - 2 - into your work mode and -- and you leave the past in 3 the past because, as you can -- you can see from all the 4 things I had to do, I was a pretty busy guy, I didn't 5 have a lot of time to think about things. You just get 6 back to work and do what you're supposed to be doing. 7 Q: All right. The reference to talking 8 to Mark Wright about amassing the army? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You would have had -- immediately 11 prior to this phone call, you would have been in the 12 company of Mark Wright at the Command Post, right? 13 A: I left the Command Post I believe at 14 eight o'clock that night. I don't know -- I -- I don't 15 recall seeing Mark at all after that time and I don't 16 know when I saw him before, what time he went off at, or 17 where he went. 18 Q: Typically during the currency of this 19 incident, you were in the company of Mark Wright in the 20 Command Post, right? 21 A: Now, he was not always there but I 22 certainly saw him there, yes. 23 Q: He was often there, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And in Septem -- on September 5th
2431 prior to this conversation, you would have had 2 opportunity to speak to Mark Wright? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: If you could go to Tab 31, your 5 comment: 6 "Lacroix's on his way up to do these 7 guys." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The reference "to do these guys" it's 10 quite possible that that relates to the same way that you 11 used "do these guys" in the conversation earlier, right? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No? And how is it that you can be so 14 sure that -- that it's used in one sense with respect to 15 arrest in the conversation previously and used 16 differently in this sense? 17 A: Well, because I'm -- was instructed 18 to call Wade Lacroix up because he was going to lead the 19 Crowd Management Unit. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: So this is the context in which I'm - 22 - I'm using it. 23 Q: And the Crowd Management Unit was 24 going to be deployed, right? 25 A: I don't know if they were going to be
2441 deployed but he was on his way because he's an Incident 2 Commander for Crowd Management and they required him 3 there. 4 Q: Yes. And they required him there 5 why? 6 A: If the Crowd Management Unit was to 7 be deployed it had to have an Incident Commander for 8 crowd management. 9 Q: Okay. So it was in your mind that -- 10 that the Crowd Management Unit could have been deployed 11 against the occupiers, right? 12 A: I was asked to call him -- after I 13 spoke to Inspector Linton I was asked to call him to have 14 him come up here. 15 Q: So it was in your mind that the Crowd 16 Management Unit could have an interaction with the 17 occupiers? 18 A: They could have been deployed, sure. 19 Q: Yeah. And that would have been in 20 your mind from the moment that you were asked to go call 21 Wade Lacroix about the Crowd Management Unit? 22 A: Could have been, yeah. 23 Q: Yeah. So the reference to "do these 24 guys" could have been with respect to the occupiers? 25 A: No.
2451 Q: How is that your memory can be so 2 clear on that -- 3 A: We did not -- we don't -- "do these 4 guys" in the reference what I was talking about before 5 and I think I've answered this already was -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: -- in police talk you 'do 8 guys' it -- it's common in the language, that's what did 9 you charge them for. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: Or it could be used like I 12 explained earlier, if -- if there's a task at hand, are 13 you going to do this, are you going to do that house with 14 respect to a warrant, are you going to lead this -- lead 15 this search warrant team, are you going to do these guys, 16 do you want me to do that. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 He has answered this question at least two (2) or three 19 (3) times. 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know your 22 right to cross-examine, Mr. Roy, but no one should be 23 asked the same question more than two (2) or three (3) 24 times. 25
2461 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 4 Q: When you talked to Wade Lacroix about 5 heading the CMU team -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- did he mention anything about the 8 Premier? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. And what did he tell you? 11 A: What did he tell me? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: When I called him on the phone? 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: I don't recall exactly what the 16 conversation was. It was pretty well that Inspector 17 Linton wants you to come up here to Forest and bring your 18 CMU stuff. 19 Q: Okay. So you don't recall really the 20 specifics of the conversation? 21 A: No, sir. No, sir. 22 Q: Did he talk about -- about a signal 23 that we were going to be evicting; something long those 24 lines? 25 A: I -- I don't recall any -- what the
2471 conversation was with him. 2 Q: So it's quite possible that -- that 3 Wade Lacroix could have talked about evicting the 4 occupiers? 5 A: I -- I don't recall any conversation 6 with him. 7 Q: Now, you were asked earlier about a 8 number of references in the scribe notes to Marcel 9 Beaubien and the Premier. Do you remember that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you do not have a recollection of 12 hearing about those but you may have heard those 13 interactions; is that right? 14 A: I may have heard those interactions? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: No. I don't recall hearing any of 17 those. 18 Q: Your evidence as I understand it, 19 sir, is that you may well have heard during those 20 briefings, references to Marcel Beaubien. 21 A: I may have, yes. 22 Q: Okay. And I take it that -- that as 23 an ERT leader dealing with politicians isn't an ordinary 24 part of your job, right? 25 A: No, sir.
2481 Q: If that's going to happen, that's 2 going to happen at some level way above your rank, right? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q: There's no need for you to know 5 anything about, in terms of you doing your job, what 6 politicians' views are and what they're up to, right? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: And you had no experience of having 9 any interactions with politicians in terms of doing your 10 job, right? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: So if you heard those discussions 13 regarding Marcel Beaubien and the Premier, it would have 14 been the first time, in terms of your experience as a 15 police officer, right? 16 A: In regards to an operational -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- issue? I don't recall any other 19 times that any politician -- regarding an operational 20 issue, I don't -- I don't recall any. 21 Q: Okay. So if you did hear those 22 things, and it's quite possible that you did, it would 23 have been the first and only time you've ever heard about 24 what a local MPP and the Premier, what their views are, 25 concerning a police operations?
2491 A: Yes. 2 Q: If you could go to page 68 of the 3 scribe notes, please. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 8 that's Tab 17. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: It is, sir. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 12 Q: Tab 17, the typed scribe notes, 13 Exhibit 426. Page 68. 14 There's an entry: 15 "Briefing at 18:12 hours with command 16 members." 17 A: And the date, is this on the 6th? 18 Q: Yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: There's a reference to a briefing of 23 the command team members. Do you -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- see that, sir? And I'm not going
2501 to take you line by line through this, but halfway down, 2 there's a reflection of you participating at this 3 briefing? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And towards the end of the -- there's 6 a number of times that this briefing that you're 7 reporting information to the -- to the meeting, do you 8 see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And if you go to the next page, page 11 69, it appears that the meeting ends in and around 12 18:37. 13 You see that? 14 A: Meeting -- yes, I got that, yes. 15 Q: And that would be consistent with 16 your memory in terms of how long these meetings took? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: They might take twenty (20) minutes 19 to half an hour? 20 A: I don't know. Some may have been 21 longer, some may have been shorter. I don't recall. 22 Q: Okay. But this is not, in terms of 23 approximately half an hour, that's not unreasonable in 24 terms of how long a meeting would -- would take in terms 25 of your recollection?
2511 A: Yeah, I don't know. 2 Q: All right. And if you look at 18:42 3 about five (5) minutes after the meeting appears to end. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: There's a reference to Inspector 6 Linton, Inspector Carson, Les Kobayashi and Member of 7 Parliament, Marcel Beaubien, meeting in command trailer. 8 You see that? 9 A: Yes, yes. 10 Q: Now, you were ordinarily in the 11 command trailer in terms of your duties? 12 A: Normally, yes. 13 Q: And if a meeting with Beaubien -- 14 Marcel Beaubien happened in the command trailer, if you 15 were in the command trailer you would have had to walk 16 past your location to get into the command trailer, 17 right? 18 A: I do recall that he was there at some 19 point during these days. I don't know exactly when. 20 Q: All right. So it's quite possible 21 that your recollection relates to this attendance by 22 Marcel Beaubien at around 18:42 hours on September -- 23 A: It may have been -- 24 Q: -- 6th? 25 A: -- because I do recall -- I don't
2521 recall if I saw him there or I was told he was there. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: But I was aware that he was there. 4 Q: All right. And you were stationed 5 with Petrolia Detachment from time to time, correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And Marcel Beaubien was the Mayor of 8 Petrolia, right, at some point? 9 A: Yeah, I think before my time there, 10 yes. 11 Q: I beg your pardon? 12 A: Before my time there, I believe. I 13 don't think he was the Mayor when I was there. 14 Q: All right. And you -- in any event, 15 you would have been familiar with Marcel Beaubien, 16 generally? 17 A: The name, yes. 18 Q: Yes. And you would have been 19 familiar with him as a prominent local person in a 20 community that you policed for many, many years, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So you might even recognize him if 23 you saw him, right? 24 A: I might have, I don't know for sure. 25 Back then, I -- I can't recall.
2531 Q: And in terms of -- of having a 2 recollection of seeing Marcel Beaubien there you would 3 have appreciated at the time that he was a local MPP, 4 right? 5 A: Whether I saw or was told there I 6 believe that was his role at the time. 7 Q: And in terms of your recollection 8 what do you remember Marcel Beaubien doing in terms of 9 what you saw? 10 A: I -- like I say I don't recall if I - 11 - if I saw him or somebody told me he was there; that -- 12 that's the only recollection I have. I didn't have any 13 dealings with him or -- or was part of any meetings that 14 -- that he attended there. 15 Q: All right. If you can go to page 70 16 we have Marcel Beaubien attending at 18:42. If you look 17 halfway down page 70: 18 "John Carson advised that before the 19 Park was taken over that he originally 20 had members there but had to leave for 21 safety reasons. We were outnumbered. 22 Les Kobayashi was present when the 23 Natives took over. He confirmed that 24 the officers were swarmed. There was 25 approximately twenty (20) to forty (40)
2541 Natives. Agreed with the decision for 2 the officers to leave." 3 Do you see that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall being present when John 6 Carson is giving some kind of account for your decision 7 to leave the Park on September 4th? 8 A: No, I don't recall. 9 Q: Do you recall being told about that? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Now, when you saw or when you recall 12 being told about or seeing Marcel Beaubien attend at the 13 Command Trailer I take it that at the time your mind 14 would have gone back to the briefings that you had where 15 Marcel Beaubien was mentioned? 16 A: Can you just repeat that one (1) more 17 time? 18 Q: Sure. When you were either told that 19 Marcel Beaubien was in attendance or you saw him were you 20 shocked that you saw him? 21 A: It -- I -- I don't remember feeling 22 anything either way. It wasn't my -- wasn't my concern. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 24 you that it wasn't shocking to you to see Marcel Beaubien 25 is because you -- you had heard reference to him in some
2551 of your prior briefings? 2 A: I -- I don't recall. 3 Q: But that's possible? 4 A: I -- I -- it is possible. It -- it - 5 - he wasn't there to see me obviously so I -- it really 6 had nothing to do with my job or what I had to do. 7 Q: I'm going to suggest we take about a 8 five (5) minute break and I -- I've got about ten (10) or 9 fifteen (15) minutes left. I'm a little longer than I 10 anticipated but... 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 12 Jones...? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, if 14 we're taking a break I wonder if we could actually take 15 our afternoon break now. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 17 it's a better idea to take our afternoon break and then 18 you have about ten (10) or fifteen (15) minutes. 19 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'm -- I'm going into a 20 new area and I'm about ten (10) or fifteen (15) minutes 21 from being done. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right 23 then let's take a break and then come back and you'll 24 finish. Thank you. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess
2561 for fifteen (15) minutes. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 3:53 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 4:08 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you very much for 12 that, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on, 14 Mr. Roy. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 17 Q: Mr. Korosec, the -- I take it that 18 you were from time to time during your involvement on -- 19 in August and early September 1995 that you were 20 conscious of the fact that the local cottagers had some 21 very significant concerns about what was going on at the 22 Provincial Park? 23 A: I -- I don't recall if I knew a lot 24 about that or -- or much about the concerns. I don't 25 recall how much I knew or -- or what -- what was going on
2571 with that. 2 Q: All right. You -- you made reference 3 to earlier in your evidence about showing the doors to 4 the -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- local people. 7 A: Yes. Yes. 8 Q: All right. And when you say showing 9 the door, that's the OPP decal on the side of the door of 10 the cruiser, is it? 11 A: Showing the door, is it just refers 12 to having some visibility out there, a presence out 13 there. 14 Q: Right. And the visibility and the 15 presence was for the local cottagers, right? 16 A: For the most part I guess. 17 Q: Yeah. And you -- the idea was that 18 TRU being visible in the community. You were to bring 19 home to the local cottagers that the police were alive to 20 their concerns about what was happening at the Park, 21 right? 22 A: I imagine so, yes. 23 Q: And while not knowing a lot about 24 what the specific concerns of the cottagers were, you 25 knew they weren't happy about the situation, right?
2581 A: Are we -- at what point -- what 2 situation? 3 Q: The occupation of the Park. 4 A: Okay, so we're talking after 5 September 4th then? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Yeah, I was obviously somewhat aware 8 of that. 9 Q: All right. And in terms of Mr. 10 Beaubien, you understood that he was the local MPP for 11 the cottagers, correct? 12 A: I believe so, yes. 13 Q: And you would have connected his 14 presence to the concerns of the cottagers; is that right? 15 A: I -- I'm not sure if I made any 16 connection of that at all, I don't. Like I say, why he 17 was there, when he was there, it didn't have much concern 18 to me. 19 Q: Okay. Now, in your evidence, I put 20 one page of evidence -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- from April 5th, 2006 -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- before you, and that's on page 25 328, April 5th, 2006. And you make a reference -- and
2591 this is -- you're testifying about the bonfires that were 2 observed on September 3rd in terms of context. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what you say in your evidence is 5 you say that there's a potential for the presence of 6 uniforms to make a matter worse. Do you see that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what you're talking about there 9 is that from time to time the -- the very visible 10 presence of police may have a negative impact on the 11 tensions in a given situation, correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that's because the people that 14 are seeing the police officers present in their uniforms 15 may misinterpret what the intentions of the police are, 16 correct? 17 A: Yeah and it also may draw more people 18 down to see what's going on. I mean, that happens in a - 19 - in many situations. You see several police cars or -- 20 or police officers show up anywhere, it's -- it's going 21 to draw attention to a lot people who want to see what's 22 going on. 23 Q: And in this situation you don't 24 necessarily want to draw attention to what's going on, 25 correct?
2601 A: Correct. 2 Q: And but this -- this notion that the 3 people who the police officers are confronting 4 potentially misinterpreting what the police are doing 5 there. That's a risk in terms of -- of how the presence 6 of police can make matters worse. 7 A: They may assume we're down there for 8 a different reason than what we're really going down 9 there for, that could happen, yes. 10 Q: And in terms of leading an ERT team, 11 you had that consideration in mind when you decide when 12 and whether to deploy uniformed police officers to a 13 given location, right? 14 A: Taking into affect a lot of other 15 variables, sure. 16 Q: Yes. And this notation that -- that 17 the presence of uniforms can actually make a situation 18 worse, that's not something that you learned since 19 September 6th, 1995. It's something that you were aware 20 prior to that, correct? 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: Now you've told us that you had no 23 role in -- in the decision or no knowledge even of the 24 decision to send the S -- the CMU down the road; is that 25 correct?
2611 A: I had no knowledge...? 2 Q: That the decision had even been made. 3 A: No. 4 Q: And am I right in saying that this -- 5 this perspective that you have about this downside of 6 having uniforms present, you never had an opportunity to 7 put that point before any of the people who were making 8 this decision, right? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: And had you had that opportunity, 11 that's something that you might have raised as a 12 consideration. 13 A: In -- in this specific instance I -- 14 I don't think it would have been my place, number 1, not 15 knowing all the facts that the decision makers may have 16 had, and as to what exactly was going on and what they 17 were -- if they were going to be deployed, what they were 18 going to do. 19 I don't think that I would have -- I don't 20 think it would have been my place to -- to suggest that 21 to the incident commanders. 22 Q: All right. So even if you had that 23 concern, you wouldn't have raised it, correct? 24 A: For those reasons, probably not. 25 Q: At the various briefings that were --
2621 you were at, did you have a -- did you hear any 2 discussion amongst the command team about that issue, 3 about the presence of uniforms potentially making the 4 situation worse and not better? 5 A: I didn't -- I don't think I was privy 6 to any of their meetings and decision making, what their 7 thought processes were and what they were -- what they 8 were talking about, and how to deploy, if they were going 9 to deploy. 10 Q: All right. The last thing I want to 11 ask you about is Exhibit P-1330, which is the transcript 12 that was handed out this morning, that Mr. Millar 13 examined you about the first thing this morning. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: About half way down on the first page 19 of that transcript. The transcript reflect -- reflects 20 that you laugh when you say: 21 "Stay out, stay out a ways. What we 22 really want to do is -- is -- we've got 23 the land, sea and pretty soon, air." 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes.
2631 Q: And what's that a reference to? 2 A: I think it was talking -- we had ERT 3 teams on the ground, these guys were just new to the 4 area, and a boat in the water, and I know there had been 5 some discussion about a helicopter as well, so we were 6 referring to the containment. 7 Q: Okay. And who's the "them" in "we've 8 got them land, sea, and pretty soon air?" 9 A: Well, probably the occupiers I'm 10 referring to. 11 Q: And then if you look, your next 12 utterance in this transcript: 13 "A little psychological tactic here." 14 Do you see that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the psychological tactic that 17 you're referring to is the tactic of showing force; is 18 that right? 19 A: I don't know if they're showing 20 force, or showing a presence, anyway, in order to 21 contain. 22 Q: The reference to land, sea and air, 23 it's almost like a military type of reference, isn't it? 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: No. Now the psychological tactic
2641 that you're talking about doesn't involve going and 2 speaking to the occupiers, right? 3 A: I don't know what I meant by that. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now if you go over the page, you're 8 asked by Officer Burch: 9 "What kind of armament are they playing 10 with, any idea?" 11 Do you see that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you understood that he was asking 14 you about the occupiers of the Park, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what kind of armament did they 17 have available to them at that location, correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you understood that -- that that 20 question -- he was asking you a serious question and 21 requesting important information, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: He wasn't joking around or anything 24 like that, right? 25 A: I don't believe so.
2651 Q: And your response is: 2 "We -- we know [sorry] we -- we, you 3 know, they're Natives, they all got 4 long guns." 5 Do you see that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And on reflection, do you have any 8 concern about your response to Officer Burch? 9 A: You know, we were telling them to 10 stay -- stay back, and I think I heard Inspector Carson 11 in the background of the tape saying, Stay well back. 12 They're out in a boat, they have no -- no 13 cover. You know, just stressing the fact to them that, 14 you know, just play it very, very safe. 15 Q: Okay. But your utterance: 16 "They're Natives, they all got long 17 guns." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You have the sense that John Carson 20 was in the background when you were talking to Officer 21 Burch? 22 A: I think at one point I -- earlier in 23 the conversation, I heard him -- his voice, Stay -- Stay 24 way back or stay well back. 25 Q: All right. But the utterance:
2661 "They're Natives, they all got long 2 guns." 3 Do you have any problem with what you said 4 there? 5 A: That's probably a generalization. We 6 talked about earlier about we had information that there 7 were guns at the Base, that they were hunters and there 8 would be long guns there. 9 Q: All right. But hunters at the Base 10 is a little different than when being asked about 11 armament in the Park: 12 "They're Natives, they all got long 13 guns." 14 A: Well, if they -- they had them in the 15 Park and we'd heard reports of -- of gunshots coming -- 16 or if they had them at the Base and we heard reports of 17 gunshots coming from the Park, one would assume that 18 they're one (1) in the same. 19 Q: You had reports of gunshots in the 20 Park? 21 A: What I -- from what I can recall from 22 -- from briefings, that there were gunshots coming from 23 the Park. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Or report of gunfire anyway.
2671 Q: And that gunfire was not, for 2 example, coming way back in the Base, was it, in terms of 3 your understanding? 4 A: Not in terms -- not what I 5 understood. 6 Q: You were being told that there was 7 gunfire in the Park? 8 A: From what I recall from -- from 9 reading the material over here, there was reports of 10 that, yes. 11 Q: Okay. But you also recall being told 12 that at the various briefings? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And they were the briefings that Mark 15 Wright and John Carson were at, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: The notion that, "They're Natives, 18 they all got long guns," do you not see that as a little 19 bit of a... 20 A: Well, it was certainly no -- when we 21 talked earlier about hunters and -- and Natives being 22 hunters and there's many hunters out in rural areas and 23 there's many guns and long guns for hunting in any rural 24 area that -- that we policed. 25 Q: All right. But the -- the statement
2681 that they all got long guns, don't you think that that's 2 a little -- 3 A: Well, that -- that was probably a 4 little much. 5 Q: Okay. And it's a little much in a 6 context when an officer is asking you a serious question 7 about a potential threat, right? 8 A: Yes, but again, wanting them to be on 9 the safe side it was probably stressing it a little more 10 because of for -- for only that reason. 11 Q: All right. So this statement, 12 "They're Natives, they all got long guns," might have 13 been the kind of thing that you would have said at any 14 briefing to your ERT members? 15 A: Not -- not particularly, no. Why I - 16 - why I used that phrase, I don't know. I don't recall. 17 Q: Now, if you look further down in the 18 transcript: 19 "In fact we've never been -- in this 20 whole month we've been doing this thing 21 and even yesterday when it hit the fan 22 being confronted by a Native holding a 23 long gun." 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes.
2691 Q: This statement that you're making to 2 Officer Burch happens after the report that you get from 3 Whelan -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- concerning the gun butt, right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And the next statement: 8 "And he'd probably be a dead Native by 9 now." 10 Do you see that? 11 A: Yes, yes. 12 Q: And then right after that there's a 13 reference to the TRU team; do you see that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Can you tell me why it is that you're 16 referring to the TRU team right after you're making this 17 odd reference to a dead Native? 18 A: There's no connection there. I think 19 I was just letting him know, or letting them know, you 20 know, who was there and that the TRU team was -- was 21 moving into Pinery, just for their information. 22 Q: Okay. Now your reference to being 23 confronted by a Native holding a long gun; do you see 24 that? 25 A: Yes.
2701 Q: The reference is not to a Native 2 person pointing a firearm or shooting at officers, it's 3 the mere holding of a firearm. 4 A: And being confronted by -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- a Native holding a long gun. 7 That's true, we'd never been. 8 Q: Okay. And -- and what you're saying 9 here is that anybody who's thought to be holding a 10 firearm is likely to be shot; is that right? 11 A: No, I think I was referring back to - 12 - when I say, And even yesterday, referring to that 13 incident down on the beach when Neil Whelan sees the butt 14 of a long gun in the trunk. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Again, Mr. 16 Roy, we've been over this, but I assume you're almost 17 done because you said fifteen (15) minutes. 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: I -- I am. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You are 20 done. 21 MR. JULIAN ROY: I am finished. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 Thank you very much. 24 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you very 25 much.
2711 Thank you very much, Officer. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 6 do you have any questions? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: I do, thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long do 12 you anticipate you might be, Ms. Jones? 13 MS. KAREN JONES: Twenty (20) minutes to 14 half an hour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: You've -- Mr. Korosec, you've been 19 asked a number of questions about the planning for 20 Project Maple and some questions about the ERT and the 21 CMU, and I just wanted to follow up on some of that to 22 start off with. 23 And just to assist you a little bit, if 24 you turn to the notes in your book that you were referred 25 to about the meeting in London. And that's at Tab 14 of
2721 your book and that's in reference to the September 1st, 2 1995 meeting. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you were asked some questions and 5 I just wanted to make sure that your evidence about that 6 was clear, about the planning that was going on. And it 7 was suggested to you that each ERT leader developed an 8 operational plan. 9 And first of all, if we look at the 10 minutes of the September 1st, 1995 meeting, are there 11 other ERT leaders there in addition to you? 12 A: Yes, there are. 13 Q: And in terms of planning on September 14 the 1st, 1995, would you and those other ERT leaders have 15 sat down together? 16 A: Yes, we did. 17 Q: In terms of developing an operational 18 plan? 19 A: Yes, we did. 20 Q: And in terms of the content of that 21 operation plan that you developed, is that what we see at 22 the end of the day in the Project Maple document? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if you -- you were also asked a 25 question about whether or not the operational plan that
2731 was developed, for example, would set out what 2 instructions would be given to ERT members at the 3 checkpoint? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And if you want an opportunity to 6 look at your Project Maple book, you ought to do that. 7 But I wonder if you do that, if you can then tell us 8 whether or not there's any reference in the Project Maple 9 operational plan to what instructions would be given to 10 ERT members at a checkpoint. 11 A: No. 12 Q: And in fact would that be something 13 that you and the ERT -- the other ERT leaders would 14 decide or would that be something that would be 15 determined by the Incident Commander or someone in charge 16 in an operation? 17 A: By the Incident Commander. 18 Q: Okay. You were also asked some 19 questions about the minutes from September 1st, 1995, 20 about what it was you were actually planning for, and it 21 was suggested to you that the plan was to keep people out 22 of the Park. 23 And I just wondered if on review of the 24 minutes of September 1st, 1995, and in particular, the 25 paragraph that talks about if the Park is taken over it's
2741 possibly approximately twenty (20) people will enter the 2 Park and will not be willing to leave. 3 There's some discussion there about MNR 4 role and then the OPP role, and then there's some 5 discussion after that about keeping people out. 6 Was it your understanding that the purpose 7 of the planning for Project Maple was to keep people out 8 of the Park, or if the Park was occupied, to try and keep 9 other people from coming in? 10 A: I believe that's what -- from what I 11 read in the minutes and in my notes and the chronology of 12 what was to take place, that that was the case, yes. 13 Q: Which one was the case? I'm sorry. 14 A: If the Park was taken over and people 15 come in, yes. 16 Q: Okay, okay. Were you at any point 17 told, prior to September 4th, that your purpose, vis-a- 18 vis Project Maple, were around a possible occupation of 19 the Park, that your purpose was to keep occupiers from 20 entering the Park in the first place? 21 A: No. 22 Q: You were also asked some questions 23 about the priority. First of all, your priority, what 24 was of concern to you vis-a-vis Project Maple, and also 25 what was of concern to John Carson. And I wanted to take
2751 you to the scribe notes which are at Tab 17 of your book. 2 And on page 1, at 20:56 hours, there is a 3 mention there of Stan Korosec calling. And I take it 4 September 1st, '95 at 20:56 hours you would have been in 5 the Park at that time? 6 A: September 4th, yes. 7 Q: I'm sorry, September 4th. And the 8 advice that you get there is: 9 "Advise Stan Korosec to control bridge, 10 keep control of maintenance shack. 11 Advised we have nine (9) cruisers in 12 Park. Advised them personally to gain 13 their position. Safety issue for ERT 14 is number 1. If safety threatened, use 15 cruiser to go through the fence. 16 Sergeant Korosec to re-advise of 17 conversation." 18 Mr. Korosec, in your recollection, were 19 your instructions from Inspector Carson primarily to 20 ensure safety? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Was that consistent throughout the 23 period of time you were involved in Ipperwash? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Was that your primary concern?
2761 A: Absolutely. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And just a few more questions about 7 ERT and CMU. You were asked some questions originally 8 about a kind of kit that ERT members would have, and 9 there was evidence that you gave about the ASP batons -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- had been handed out on September 12 the 6th. Can you give us any background or any 13 information on how it was that the ASP batons became 14 available on September the 6th? 15 A: The OPP at -- prior to that, prior to 16 September of that year was -- already started to roll out 17 or issue ASP batons to -- to all -- to all uniformed 18 members. And some officers had already gone through the 19 training and it's province-wide, so it doesn't -- not 20 everybody gets them on the same day, obviously. 21 So some officers in some districts would 22 have had them, others had the training but didn't get 23 them and others were still waiting for training before 24 they -- before they were received. 25 Q: In your understanding, in using the
2771 use of force continuum as the baseline, is an ASP baton 2 placed any differently on the use of force continuum than 3 the wood baton? 4 A: No, it's the same. 5 Q: Okay. In terms of potential 6 advantages to officers, are there any potential 7 advantages to officers with an ASP baton versus the 8 regular wood baton? 9 A: The advantage to them is they were 10 more readily available since they -- they collapsed and 11 they were able to be able to be put on your duty belt in 12 a holder rather than being in a cruiser or a lot of times 13 they ended up, because they were so bulky and kept 14 falling out of -- there was holders in the doors of the 15 cruisers, I remember they -- you'd open the door and the 16 baton would fall out, so now you got something out in a - 17 - there may be a situation where you don't want it out, 18 where somebody could use it against you, or they'd be put 19 in trunks or officers just wouldn't take them with them 20 because it was too cumbersome. 21 So the advantage was, they were available 22 to them at all times as a -- as an alternate use of 23 force. 24 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 25 about the CMU and training of the CMU and use of the CMU.
2781 In your experience as of 1995, through the 1994 training 2 of ERT, and the CMU training you got, was it a standard 3 operating procedure or was it a practice in the CMU to 4 say, Move back, move back, move back, when you were using 5 a formation? 6 And this is the CMU after 1994, as opposed 7 to that Crowd Control Unit prior to 1994? 8 A: I don't believe that was in the 9 training after 19 -- after 1994. 10 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 11 about whether or not the presence of police could 12 sometimes escalate a situation. 13 Has it been your experience from time to 14 time where an increased police presence can diffuse or 15 quell a situation? 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: You were asked some questions about 21 your information about the occupiers potentially having 22 guns, were you involved at all in 1993 during the -- 23 after the helicopter shooting or the attempted helicopter 24 shooting at the Base? 25 A: Yes.
2791 Q: And did that make any difference to 2 you in terms of your views about people in occupation 3 having guns? 4 A: Well, it was certainly -- 5 Q: The occupation of the Base, I'm 6 sorry. 7 A: Yes, yes. It was. Certainly I was 8 there and that was in my mind. 9 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 10 about the effect if any of -- on you of either seeing or 11 hearing of Marcel Beaubien attending at the Command Post 12 and did it make any difference to you in terms of what 13 you were doing, whether you either saw Marcel Beaubien or 14 you heard he had been at the Command Post? 15 A: It made no difference to me. 16 Q: It didn't alter or change your 17 actions in any way? 18 A: No, ma'am. 19 Q: Similarly, it's been suggested to you 20 that you might have known about information about the 21 Premier's views about the matter or a Blockade Committee. 22 Did that alter or change your actions in 23 any way at Ipperwash? 24 A: No, ma'am. 25 Q: I'm sorry, I had one (1) more
2801 question -- actually two (2) questions for you about your 2 equipment. 3 Can you tell us whether or not any of the 4 guns that were carried by ERT team members had laser 5 sights on them? 6 A: No, they did not. 7 Q: Did they have any sights at all that 8 could be useful at night? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. You were also -- it was 11 suggested to you or you had some questions asked of you 12 of scanners and what a scanner could pick up -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- do you recall that? And the 15 telephone call, and if you look at Tab 22 of your 16 materials, the telephone call -- whoops. I'm sorry, it's 17 Tab 21, it's Exhibit P-1154. It's the call between 18 yourself and Wayde Jacklin. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: That was a call that you made on the 21 telephone? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: To your knowledge is there -- is it 24 possible on a scanner to pick up telephone calls? 25 A: No, ma'am.
2811 Q: Similarly, you were played a number 2 of calls in which you called -- telephone calls in which 3 you called Kent Skinner and then you called Rick 4 Zupancic, both who were members of TRU and to your 5 knowledge could those telephone calls be picked up on a 6 scanner? 7 A: No. 8 Q: I just had one (1) more question to 9 ask you about the call between yourself and Wayde Jacklin 10 that took place on September 5th, 1995. 11 I take it that you had worked with Wayde 12 Jacklin on other occasions? 13 A: Yes, I'd known him for many years. 14 Q: And you knew him quite well? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that you knew whatever comments 17 you were making to him would be taken with a grain of 18 salt? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You were asked a number of questions 21 about laws and whether the enforcement of laws could 22 somehow be unfair to people or whether or not if you had 23 known about a colour of right it might have changed 24 actions and I think the term was 'aggressive police 25 actions'.
2821 And I wanted to take you back to September 2 of 1995. 3 Was it your understanding in September of 4 1995 that the Park was owned by the Province? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was it your understanding in 7 September of 1995 that Matheson Drive was owned by the 8 Municipality? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And going back to your notes, you 11 gave some evidence on -- that on September the 2nd of 12 1995 there had been -- and if you want to look at your 13 police notes, please do that. 14 You spoke about your notes indicating on 15 September the 2nd that you had two (2) ERT officers 16 report to you about Dudley George yelling, harassing 17 people and drinking on the beach? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And at that point in time from your 20 understanding of the situations, could the officers have 21 taken some steps against Mr. George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did that happen? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And in your view was that the
2831 appropriate course of action by those officers? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And why was that? 4 A: Well they seemed to -- the situation 5 seemed to diffuse itself and there was -- there was no 6 need for them to do -- to aggravate the situation 7 anymore. They used their discretion properly I thought. 8 Q: And was that consistent with your 9 view that whenever possible, situations ought to be 10 diffused so long as safety could be maintained? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And similarly at 13:50 hours on 13 September the 2nd you gave instructions to ERT officers 14 to stay off Matheson Drive? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And you told us in your evidence you 17 did that because you didn't want things there to 18 escalate. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And from your understanding at that 21 time that was Municipal property? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you could have give instructions 24 to the ERT officers to enforce the law vigorously on 25 Matheson Drive?
2841 A: Yes, I could have. 2 Q: And you chose not to do that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Because you want to diffuse the 5 situation as much as possible. 6 A: Correct. Or prevent it from -- 7 Q: Or prevent it from -- 8 A: -- escalating. 9 Q: -- happening in the first place. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And on September the 3rd at 14:10 12 hours, you gave some evidence that you were at the end of 13 Matheson Drive and you saw someone there giving 14 directions to the campers. One of the occupiers was 15 giving directions to campers and you noticed that Brian 16 Gast was speaking to that person in that he resolved that 17 situation without a confrontation. 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And was that a situation where 20 Constable Gast could have taken further enforcement 21 action? 22 A: He could have, yes. 23 Q: And he didn't? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you agree with that course of
2851 action? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And is that consistent with your view 4 of diffusing the situation? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Similarly you talked about on 7 September the 3rd later on in the day, the bonfire down 8 at the end of Matheson Drive? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: That was something you could have 11 intervened in? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you didn't. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Because you wanted not to escalate 16 the situations? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And you've told us at length the 19 occurrences on September the 4th, the issue in the 20 afternoon at the end of Matheson Drive and again in the 21 Park. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And throughout the entire course of 24 time, you were at Ipperwash, was that your view that you 25 wanted to maintain safety and diffuse situations?
2861 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was everything you did towards 3 that end? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You were asked some questions about 6 whether or not in your view people in the Park or people 7 in the Base were dangerous or potentially dangerous. 8 And as of September and specifically 9 September 4th, 5th or 6th, did you know who was in the 10 Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: On September 4th, 5th or 6th, did you 13 know who was in the Base? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And I wanted to take you to Tab 35 of 16 your binder and this is a transcript of a call. It's 17 Exhibit 1329, Your Honour. This is between yourself and 18 Lyle Johnston that took place on the morning of September 19 7th, 1995. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Mr. Millar played this for you 22 during your evidence in-chief and to save time, I'm not 23 going to ask him to play it again. 24 But you have the transcript in front of 25 you. And you'll see near the top of the first page, you
2871 say, you -- you've got on the phone with Lyle Johnston 2 and you say, "What's the bad news?" 3 Well, Johnston says: 4 "What's the bad news? Dennis and I -- 5 I'm not sure how much involved, but 6 apparently Bill called me earlier 7 tonight and said Robert was on the 8 reserve up there and Perry's supposed 9 to be up there." 10 And you say: 11 "Right." 12 And Lyle Johnston says: 13 "They may or may not have been involved 14 in some of that shooting stuff." 15 And you say: 16 "Right." 17 And Lyle Johnston says: 18 "But he's going around the reserve. Ed 19 is going around the reserve waking 20 people up. He went to Joey's place and 21 told Joey that there were warriors 22 heading out there from other places, 23 that he's been called. The warriors 24 are on their way up there and are 25 armed."
2881 Can you tell us, if you know, who "Robert" 2 and "Perry" and "Ed" were? 3 A: Perry and Ed, I know, were Isaac, I 4 believe is who he is referring to. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And Robert -- Robert might be as 7 well, I'm not sure on that. 8 Q: And would you have had concerns if 9 you knew that Perry or Ed or Robert were at Ipperwash 10 based on what you knew of them -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- from your time on Walpole? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And why is that? 15 A: Like I said earlier, when I -- when I 16 first got down to the Sombra Detachment and I was given a 17 tour of the area, it was a new area to me. And I spent 18 some time down Walpole Island and I don't know which one 19 of the Walpole Island First Nations officers I was riding 20 with for a while, and -- and there were certain 21 residences that, for officer safety, they -- they let you 22 know if you were going to get called down here to assist 23 us or don't go by yourself. 24 And -- and these names were mentioned to 25 me, as others, as an officer safety issue. There could
2891 be problems if you go to this residence or deal with 2 these individuals. 3 Q: Okay. And those concerns potentially 4 could be with violence? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And Mr. Millar has kindly offered to 7 play a portion of a track for us. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, this 9 is from Exhibit 1254 (sic). 10 And I'm just going to ask Mr. Millar to 11 play a portion of this, so that we have -- when this tape 12 has been played before, there's been an unidentified 13 voice on it, and I suspect that Mr. Korosec can help us 14 in terms of identifying that voice. 15 What I'd like to do is pass up a copy of 16 the transcript to you so that you can follow along. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 18 an extra copy for me too? 19 MS. KAREN JONES: I absolutely do. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have I got 21 it? 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that the 24 one(1) you gave me earlier? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes.
2901 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It has 1254 on it. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Ron. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1254. I'm 4 not sure where I have 1254. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 9 thought we were all set up, but -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: -- we're relying on Ms. 12 Newell's expertise yet again. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 [Lima 1 = Lima 1] 17 [MG = Constable Mark Gransden] 18 19 Lima 1: Gransden, go. 20 MG: Are you inquiring about that female? 21 Lima 1: 10-4. One was brought in to here, and 22 then there was another female with her. 23 We want to know what happened. 24 MG: 10-4. We dropped her off... 25 ------
2911 12:54 2 3 CP: Well, if they're going to arrest them, 4 send a prisoner van up and bring them down 5 to Forest Detachment for now. 6 Lima 2: 10-4. They're inquiring. It's an elderly 7 female. Can she be dropped off at the 8 Army Camp or bring her in? 9 CP: Just a . just stand by one. Stand by one. 10 I'll check with the Detective Sergeant. 11 CP: Lima 2 from Lima 1. If the . the young 12 female, was she the driver, then? 13 Lima 2: 10-4. ...inaudible ... 14 CP: 10-4. Okay. Arrest the driver and make 15 arrangements for the elderly one. We'll 16 get her identified and then run her back 17 to the Army Base there. 18 Lima 2: 10-4. 2411, did you copy? 19 Delta 2411: Yeah. In reference to the prisoner van if 20 it's still in the area, we can relay or 21 transfer our prisoner to the van... 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
2921 Q: And, Mr. Korosec, this is from the 2 Chatham Communications Centre logger tape on September 3 the 6th at 23:14 hours? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You would have been in the Command 6 Post at that time? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And can you help us with whether or 9 not the portion of that recording where Lima 2 is asking 10 -- is indicating that: 11 " 2411 has one (1) female in custody 12 from that vehicle --" 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- asking whether you want her 15 dropped off or not, the instructions are: 16 "Well, if they're going to arrest them 17 send a prisoner van up and bring them 18 down to Forest Detachment for now" 19 Lima 2 then says: 20 "10-4. They're inquiring. It's an 21 elderly female, can she be dropped at 22 the Army Camp or bring her in?" 23 And the Command Post: 24 "Just -- just stand by, 1. Stand by, 25 1. I'll check with the Detective
2931 Sergeant." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: "Come back Lima 2 from Lima 1. If 4 the young female -- is she the driver?" 5 Then Lima 2's inaudible and from the 6 Command Post: 7 "10-4. Okay. Arrest the driver and 8 make arrangements for the elderly one. 9 We'll get her identified and run her 10 back to the Army Base there." 11 Can you tell us whether or not you 12 recognized the Command Post voice? 13 A: That was me. 14 Q: And would you have sought 15 instructions from the Detective Sergeant about whether or 16 not to arrest the driver of the car? 17 A: Yes, I believe I -- I checked with 18 the Detective Sergeant on that, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And did you get instructions 20 to arrest the driver? 21 A: Yes, two (2) lines down I'm relaying 22 the instructions from the Detective Sergeant on what to 23 do. 24 Q: Okay. All right. Do you recall who 25 the Detective Sergeant was that you -- you got the
2941 instructions from? 2 I take it the Detective Sergeant would for 3 the purposes of an arrest be the officer in charge? 4 A: Yes, the Detective Sergeant looked 5 after the -- the crime side -- 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: -- of whatever happened. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know who the 9 Detective Sergeant was who you got the instructions from 10 that you relayed or not? 11 A: I don't -- I can't say for sure. 12 Q: Okay. So you don't specifically 13 recall who the Detective Sergeant was in the Command 14 Post? 15 A: No, there could have been other ones 16 up there -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- in addition. 19 Q: That's fine. Those are my questions. 20 Thank you very much, Mr. Korosec. 21 A: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 23 Ms. Jones. 24 Mr. Millar, do you have any re- 25 examination?
2951 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. I just have one 2 (1) question. 3 4 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: My Friend Mr. Roy, Mr. Korosec, asked 6 you about September 6th at 18:42 and the attendance of 7 Mr. Beaubien and the reference is in Exhibit 426. I 8 think it's your Tab 17 at page 69 and 70. 9 Do you recall Mr. Roy asking you about 10 that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you tell us where you were at 13 18:42 on the evening of September 6th and to assist, you 14 might wish to look at your notes, Tab 13. It's Exhibit 15 P-1302, Inquiry Document 2005529 on September 6th. It's 16 actually page 21 in the upper right hand corner. 17 A: I was -- I was briefing the -- the 18 night shift, Number One and Number 2 ERT. 19 Q: And there's an entry 18:30 and that's 20 brief -- 21 A: Night shift Number 1 and Number 2 22 ERT. 23 Q: And where did that take place? 24 A: We did that in the garage at the 25 Forest Detachment.
2961 Q: And how long did that take? 2 A: I don't recall. There were probably 3 twenty (20) minutes to half an hour -- 4 Q: And the next -- 5 A: -- the -- the official briefing part. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: The official briefing part, yes. 8 Q: And then the next entry is 19:30 and 9 what were you doing at 19:30? 10 A: "Debriefing the day shift." 11 Q: And where did that take place? 12 A: In the garage as well. 13 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions 14 and I wish to thank you very much, Mr. Korosec for 15 attending and giving evidence at the Inquiry. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 18 repeat that. Thank you very much, Mr. Korosec -- 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- for 21 coming and giving us your evidence. Thank you. 22 23 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the next
2971 item, Ms. Vella's going to deal with the matter of and so 2 I'll turn it over to Ms. Vella and tomorrow morning we'll 3 start with Mr. Kent Skinner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At 9:00 a.m. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At 9:00 a.m. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 7 Vella. Does anybody else know what you're going to do or 8 you have to explain it all? 9 Okay. How long do you think it's going to 10 take just before you start? 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly I'll finish 12 by or before 5:30. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. What I 15 propose to do now is to file with the Commission an 16 affidavit. It's the Affidavit of Gerry W. King which was 17 sworn on November the 8th, 2005. 18 I did -- we did distribute the Affidavit 19 and the attached exhibits to My Friends some time before 20 Christmas but we -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- haven't had an 23 opportunity to file this Affidavit and I wonder if I 24 might first of all provide copies of it to the Registrar. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now that we
2981 have all this free time, you've decided to fill it with 2 this. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well we're trying to be 4 efficient. This is the original to be filed and this is 5 for the court reporter and the Commissioner has a copy 6 already. Thank you. 7 In any event what I propose to do, I don't 8 propose to read the whole Affidavit but just for the 9 benefit of the public who are listening, you will recall 10 that we heard evidence with respect to the timing of the 11 dispatching of ambulances over the course of the evening 12 of September the 6th. 13 And there was an issue with respect to the 14 accuracy of the time of some of the transmissions. Mr. 15 King was at the time the manager of the Wallaceburg 16 Central Ambulance Communications Centre and as such he 17 has able and qualified to review and provide evidence 18 with respect to the timing of these communications. 19 So I'm going to summarize the Affidavit 20 and read some of the attached entries just for the 21 benefit of the public as follows. 22 And Mr. King deposes that he was the 23 Manager of the Wallaceburg Central Ambulance 24 Communication Centre from May 1990 until September 2004 25 when he retired. He attaches as Exhibit 'A' to the
2991 Affidavit, a copy of his curriculum vitae. 2 He further deposes that in May 1990 when 3 he was the Manager of the CACC, that is the Wallaceburg 4 Central Ambulance Communication Centre, he noted that it 5 supplies emergency call taking and dispatching of 6 ambulances to the Municipalities of Chatham-Kent and the 7 County of Lambton. 8 He supervised approximately twenty-five 9 (25) communicators which included call takers and 10 dispatchers but did not supervise the paramedics. 11 He provides an explanation of the CACC 12 dictaphone or audio recording operation. He deposes that 13 he has a complete understanding of the tape recording 14 process. And I'm going to quote now from paragraphs 9 15 through 12 where he explains that process: 16 "During the time of the Ipperwash 17 incident all communications from both 18 the radio transmissions 19 [bracket](ambulance and dispatch) 20 [close bracket] and telephones at the 21 CACC were and still are recorded on a 22 master dictaphone recorder. The master 23 Dictaphone recorder which is 24 approximately the size of a telephone 25 booth, records twenty (20) channels
3001 constantly, five (5) multi-line 2 telephone sets and five (5) radio 3 channels with spares for each. 4 The recorder has two (2) tape decks; 5 one (1) records and the other is on 6 standby for the tape change over that 7 occurs automatically every twenty-four 8 (24) hours at 23:59:59. 9 The CACC Dictaphone recorder has a time 10 read out and it's time is synchronized 11 with the other two (2) time sources in 12 the operations room. 13 The other time sources are the 14 telephone sets, time set by Bell Canada 15 and the computer dispatch program known 16 as the ambulance response information 17 system or ARIS which times is set by 18 the mainframe computer located in 19 Toronto. 20 If there is a discrepancy, the 21 Dictaphone recorder time read out is 22 synchronised with the ARIS time. 23 The Dictaphone time read out cannot 24 generally be seen by the communicator 25 because it is located in a different
3011 area of the operations room than the 2 work stations. 3 During regular operations the 4 communicator verbally indicates the 5 time from either the telephone or the 6 computer screen. 7 For example, it is common practice at 8 the CACC for the communicator to answer 9 the telephone by stating, [quote], 10 '21:31 hours, ambulance communications, 11 what is your emergency', [end of 12 quote]. 13 ARIS logs the times of calls 14 automatically, and the time recorded is 15 generated by the main frame computer 16 located in Toronto." 17 Now, Mr. King next deposes with respect to 18 his personal review of the tapes recorded at the CACC 19 during the evening of September 6th and into the early 20 hours of September 7th, 1995, relevant to the Ipperwash 21 matter, and I propose to quote again from paragraphs 13, 22 14. 23 He says -- he deposes: 24 "I have reviewed the two (2) original 25 reel to reel Dictaphone tapes that were
3021 recorded at the CACC on September 6th 2 and 7, 1995. In particular, I have 3 reviewed the portions of the tapes 4 relating to the incidents that occurred 5 at and around Ipperwash Provincial Park 6 during that time period. 7 I listened to the tapes at a meeting 8 with Inspector Rick Moss, RCMP, lead 9 investigator Ipperwash Inquiry, and 10 Maud Asante-Nimako Ministry of the 11 Attorney General, Crown Law office, 12 Civil. 13 The Excel chart attached to my 14 Affidavit as Exhibit B, accurately 15 reflects the date and time embedded in 16 the tapes by the CACC Dictaphone 17 recorder, the corresponding reel and 18 track number of the tapes and the 19 corresponding summarized content of the 20 recorded calls, to and from the CACC. 21 I confirm that the CACC Dictaphone 22 recorder, recorded the correct date and 23 time based on the practice employed and 24 the automatic nature of the date and 25 time recording.
3031 I am advised by Susan Vella, Commission 2 Counsel and verily believe that Exhibit 3 B also reflects the exhibit and Inquiry 4 document number where available, of the 5 corresponding transcript or log of the 6 taped communication noted. 7 Furthermore, where times have been 8 stated by the dispatch personnel in the 9 taped communications, example 10 dispatcher Jack Knight, they accurately 11 reflected the times that appeared on 12 the CACC's Dictaphone recorder, based 13 on my personal review of the respective 14 times embedded in the tape and 15 displayed on the Dictaphone recorder." 16 Now then attached, as Exhibit A, is the 17 curriculum vitae of Gerry King and then as Exhibit B and 18 most importantly, is a transcription of the times of all 19 of the calls relevant to Ipperwash which went through the 20 CACC, commencing with 19:59:48 on September 6th, 1995; 21 that's the time, and through to 5:30 a.m. September 7th, 22 1995. 23 Now, I don't propose to go through all of 24 these listings, however, some are of particular 25 importance and to clear up some of the ambiguity that was
3041 perhaps left by the testimony surrounding this, I'll read 2 the following. 3 "On September the 6th, 1995, at 23:07 4 hours, Sergeant Cousineau called Jeff 5 Connors for two (2) ambulances at 6 Highway 21 and Ipperwash Road. 7 At 23:12 hundred hours on September the 8 6th the 911 Operator calls Jeff Connors 9 regarding a call from an address at 10 9780 Army Camp Road [bracket] 11 (Ipperwash Park Store) reporting two 12 (2) people shot. 13 At 23:20 hundred hours on that evening 14 there is a communication between Jack 15 Knight and the OPP wherein two (2) 16 ambulances are requested to the main 17 gate of the Army Camp. The OPP request 18 more ambulances -- ambulance units 19 cover back at Ipperwash Road 20 checkpoint. 21 At 23:20 on September the 6th a Windsor 22 -- the Windsor Operator calls with 23 respect to a call received from a pay 24 phone from a woman needing an ambulance 25 as people are shot and it was the
3051 police doing the shooting." 2 We have referenced this with respect to 3 the -- as the Marcia Simon incident. 4 "At 23:20 September 6th, forty-five 5 (45) seconds, the Forest ambulance 6 units 1145, 1146 respond to the main 7 gate of the Army Camp Code 4. 8 At 23:27:12 hours September the 6th 9 Connors receives a call from Hank Veens 10 at 6840 Nauvoo Road for a gunshot 11 victim. Confusion over this call and 12 the call to Ipperwash Park Store. 13 At 23:30:40 Jack Knight dispatches an 14 ambulance to 1145 -- sorry, ambulance 15 1145 to Nauvoo Road. 16 At 23:32:18 ambulance 11:45 is en route 17 to the Nauvoo Road address. 18 At 23:33:18 Connors notifies OPP of 19 gunshot call to Nauvoo Road. 20 At 23:37:37 Connors speaks with a 21 female [who we now know as Mrs. Veens] 22 at Nauvoo Road call. 23 At 23:38:46 Connors advised that white 24 car with a flat tire has left with -- 25 has left the Nauvoo Road residence with
3061 direction of the travel unknown. 2 At 23:39:43 Connors advises Unit 1145 3 that the vehicle has left the Nauvoo 4 Road residence and will call OPP, 5 however Unit 1145 is to continue to 6 that destination. 7 At 23:40:17 Connors advises OPP Command 8 Post vehicle has left Nauvoo Road 9 address. 10 At 23:41:18 Unit 1145 call to Nauvoo 11 Road is cancelled." 12 And that is -- those are the excerpts I 13 propose to read in for the benefit of the public record, 14 however I would at this time request that the entire 15 affidavit and exhibits of Gerry W. King be entered as an 16 exhibit at this time. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1333, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1333: Affidavit of Gerry W. King, 20 November 08, 2005. 21 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And with that, 23 Commissioner, as Mr. Derry Millar has indicated we will 24 commence tomorrow with Inspector Skinner at 9:00 in the 25 morning. Thank you.
3071 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 all very much. We'll adjourn for the day. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, April the 19th at 5 9:00 a.m. 6 7 8 --- Upon adjourning at 5:08 p.m. 9 10 11 12 13 Certified Correct, 14 15 16 17 18 _________________ 19 Carol Geehan, Ms. 20 21 22 23 24 25