11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 18th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) 25 Susan Freeborn ) (np)
31 2 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 12 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 13 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 14 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 15 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 16 17 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 18 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 19 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 20 21 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 22 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 23 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 24 Ian McGilp ) (np) 25 Annie Leeks ) (np)
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) (np) 21 Melissa Panjer ) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 MAYNARD DONALD GEORGE, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 39 8 Cross-Examination by Andrea Tuck-Jackson 88 9 Cross-Examination by Ian Roland 92 10 Re-Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 120 11 12 WALTER PETER HOLMES HARDING, Sworn 13 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 127 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 228 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-335 Anthony O'Brien George DOB March 17, 4 1957, Criminal convictions, conditional 5 and absolute discharges and related 6 Information 1974-11-08/1994-11-07 19 7 P-336 July 17th, 1996 letter of apology to 8 Maynard (Sam) D. George from Mr. Thomas 9 O'Grady, Commissioner OPP 30 10 P-337 December 16, '95 Ottawa Citizen article 11 "Something To Die For" document 2001748 95 12 P-338 Official medical certificate of "Dudley" 13 George's death 123 14 P-339 St. John Ambulance London-Middlesex Corps 15 Emergency Services Support Team Manual of 16 Services. 158 17 P-340 CD-Rom of 23 photographs of St. John 18 Ambulance vehicles. 162 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Good morning, Mr. George. 10 11 MAYNARD DONALD GEORGE, Resumed 12 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: When we left off on April the 7th, you 17 had told us about the smudging ceremony that you 18 performed with your Dudley George at the Strathroy 19 Hospital. 20 After you completed the ceremony, what did 21 you do next Mr. George? 22 A: My wife and my son we -- we got in 23 our van and we started to head back for home. I did -- I 24 think met with one officer and asked if we could be 25 notified as to when the body would be released.
81 Q: And when did you learn that your 2 brother Pierre and sister Carolyn had been arrested by 3 the OPP? 4 A: Again, I -- I don't know -- I can't 5 remember at what time I asked where they had went -- 6 where my brother and sister, the one that drove him in 7 had went or where they were at that time. And that was 8 then I was informed that they were taken to the police 9 station. 10 Q: And did you at some point that 11 evening visit your brother and sister at the police 12 station? 13 A: Yes. After I left the hospital I 14 went over to the Strathroy Police Department there, the 15 OPP Detachment and asked -- I had to talk into some kind 16 of little night box there to -- to ask permission to go 17 in and see them. 18 I wasn't granted permission right away. I 19 had to -- to keep requesting that to -- in order just to 20 get in and see them. 21 Q: And so when you finished the smudging 22 ceremony, your wife and son, Donald, got in the van and 23 with the intention of going back to Kettle Point as well 24 as stopping at the OPP Detachment? 25 A: That's right.
91 Q: And had anyone -- do you recall what 2 if anything anyone at the hospital had said about why 3 Pierre and Carolyn had been arrested? 4 A: I hadn't known of any charges that 5 they were going to lay. I guess my concern was why -- 6 why were they taken to jail at that time. 7 Q: And did anyone explain to you before 8 you got to the OPP Detachment why they had been arrested? 9 A: Not that I can recall whether they 10 said there was any charges laid or not. 11 Q: So, you arrived at the OPP Detachment 12 in Strathroy and in order to gain entry you used a night 13 intercom system, is that -- or an intercom system? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And when you -- eventually you were - 16 - you were granted admittance into the Detachment? 17 A: Yes, I was. 18 Q: And how long did that take or can you 19 recall how long? 20 A: No, I can't recall how long that 21 took. But, I know I eventually got in and was allowed to 22 go in and -- and see my brother and sister. 23 Q: And prior to going in to see your 24 brother and sister, had you been advised as to -- by 25 anyone at the -- any of the police officers at the
101 Detachment why they had been arrested? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And who did you see first; Pierre or 4 Carolyn? 5 A: I went in -- I went in and I talked 6 to Pierre first. They allowed me to go into his cell. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And his first concern was to -- to 9 find out how Dudley was. So. it was at that time that I 10 informed him that Dudley had passed away. 11 Q: And what else happened? How long did 12 this meeting with Pierre take? 13 A: I got -- I got no idea. I didn't 14 take notes of any time or anything. 15 Q: Do you recall what else was said by 16 either you or your brother Pierre? 17 A: Not really other than I -- I just 18 knew I had to tell him. 19 Q: And do you recall -- did Pierre say 20 anything to you that you can recall as to why he had been 21 arrested? 22 A: Not that I can recall. 23 Q: And after you saw Pierre, you were 24 then allowed to see Carolyn? 25 A: Yes, I was.
111 Q: And that was in her cell too? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And can -- can you tell us what you 4 recall about your discussion with your sister Carolyn? 5 A: It was just basically -- just the big 6 concern was that how Dudley was doing. And again, I had 7 to inform her that -- that he in fact passed away. And 8 from there I really can't remember what the rest of our 9 conversation was about -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- or how long it took. 12 Q: Okay. And then after visiting your 13 brother Pierre and your sister Carolyn at the Detachment, 14 what did you do next, Mr. George? 15 A: Well, I went outside and -- and I'm 16 pretty sure my sister Pam was -- was also outside, but I 17 went out and I talked to them and let them know that 18 Pierre and Sully (phonetic) were -- were okay, but they 19 weren't going to release them. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: They weren't going to let them out of 22 jail and to me that didn't seem right, because our 23 brother had just been -- been killed and -- and I felt 24 really bad about having to leave them in -- in the jail 25 cells while we went back to home.
121 Q: And how did you know they weren't 2 going to be released? Did -- 3 A: Because the officer had told me and I 4 don't remember his name, neither. 5 Q: Okay. And then you proceeded to 6 return to Kettle Point; is that correct? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And on your way to Kettle Point, did 9 you have any interaction with police officers? 10 A: Yes, I did. As we were driving home, 11 I -- as I was getting closer to the town of Forest, 12 here, out on Rawlings Road and Townshead Line, there was 13 a roadblock there. 14 Q: And you were travelling towards 15 Forest on Townshead Line? 16 A: Yes, I was. 17 Q: And can you describe what happened? 18 A: Well, as we pulled up to the 19 roadblock, there was an officer laying on the -- on the 20 hood of a police car that had a gun pointed at us and 21 when I stopped the vehicle, another one came up on the 22 driver's side from -- I don't know where he came from, 23 but he told me to turn the engine off and to put my hands 24 out the window, then get out of the vehicle. 25 I was on crutches at that time and I
131 remember hollering out that I'm on crutches and they're 2 coming out first. I didn't really know what would have 3 happened if I wouldn't have said anything. 4 But, I just recently talked to my wife 5 about it, because we really didn't discuss that evening 6 until quite recently and I -- I asked her what she 7 remembered of it and she says that there was another 8 officer on the other side of the van. 9 Q: On the -- on the passenger side as 10 well? 11 A: Yes, and I asked her if they had guns 12 pointed at her and she wouldn't answer me, but my son 13 said, yes, they did. 14 Q: And the officer that you observed on 15 the driver's side of the van had a -- had a rifle or a -- 16 what kind of weapon did he have? 17 A: It was a -- it was a long gun, I -- I 18 don't know what kind it was. I wasn't going to ask him 19 any questions. 20 Q: And do you recall the officer who was 21 on the hood of the car; what -- did he have a long gun? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And was the car -- the car that you 24 observed across -- across Townshead Line to impede the 25 progress, it was parked across the -- across the highway?
141 A: Yes, it was. It was parked there so 2 that they could, I guess, start to direct traffic down 3 Rawlings Road. 4 Q: And when you arrived, if the car was 5 parked perpendicular to the highway, so it was across the 6 highway, its headlights would not have been shining on 7 you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And were there any lights on inside 10 the vehicle, your vehicle? 11 A: Inside of my vehicle? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: No. 14 Q: So, that as far as you're aware, the 15 police officers at the roadblock or the police officer at 16 the roadblock did not know who was in the vehicle? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And the -- so the police officer 19 asked you to put your hands out the window, which you 20 did? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And then what happened? 23 A: Then I reached out and pushed the 24 button and opened the door to -- and then I got out of 25 the vehicle.
151 Q: And you'd already told him that you 2 were going to come out with your... 3 A: My crutches were coming our first. 4 Q: And they were a metallic colour as I 5 understand it? 6 A: Yes, aluminum crutches, aluminum. 7 Q: And, so you got out of the car -- out 8 of your van; then what happened? 9 A: Then I talked to the officers for a 10 little while and then we proceeded to -- to come to 11 Kettle Point. Again, I didn't know that they'd opened 12 the van and -- and talked to my son, just asked him who 13 else was in the van. 14 Q: And, so they asked you to -- the 15 police officers asked you to identify yourself and where 16 you were going? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And they asked your son and your wife 19 to identify themselves as well? 20 A: Yes, I guess that's what they asked 21 them. 22 Q: And your wife and son were not asked 23 to leave the vehicle? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And the police officers asked you to
161 proceed to Kettle Point by taking Rawlings Road; is that 2 correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And Rawlings Road is a road that runs 5 between Townshead Line and Highway 21, east of the 6 intersection of -- where the light is at Townshead Line 7 and King Street? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And itĂs on the east side of town and 10 it takes you out back onto Highway 21, so that you can 11 proceed east --northeast, I guess, towards Kettle Point? 12 A: ThatĂs correct. 13 Q: And do you recall anything that the - 14 - the officers said to you, with respect to why there was 15 road block or why you were being asked to go along 16 Rawlings Road? 17 A: No, I donĂt. 18 Q: And -- so they simply asked you -- 19 they asked you to identify yourself and then directed you 20 to go along Rawlings Road to Highway 21 to Kettle Point? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And can you describe for us the
171 demeanour of the OPP officers, as you recall, the OPP 2 officer that you -- you spoke to? 3 A: They were pretty stern in the way 4 they directed their questions at us, wanting to know and 5 IĂm trying to remember what the questions they were 6 asking me, but IĂm not recalling them too well right now, 7 but I can remember they were very stern in the way they 8 were asking them. 9 Q: And do you -- I may have asked you 10 this, and I apologize, but do you recall -- did you 11 recognize any of the officers at the checkpoint? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Then after you left the checkpoint, 14 you proceeded on Rawlings Road to Highway 21? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And then proceeded to Kettle Point 17 along Highway 21? 18 A: ThatĂs correct. 19 Q: And what did you do when you got to 20 the intersection of Highway 21 and the road that leads to 21 Kettle Point? 22 A: Well, we travelled down twenty-one 23 (21) until we got to County Road 7, and as we were 24 turning to go into the community, our plazaĂs there on 25 the corner --
181 Q: Yes. 2 A: And I noticed a large -- large amount 3 of people there. So, I pulled in and our -- and Chief 4 Tom Bressette came out and he --he asked me, you know, 5 how Dudley was and I told him that Dudley had passed 6 away. 7 So, he asked me if I would address the 8 crowd that were there. So, I just basically told the 9 people that -- that it was Dudley that was shot and -- 10 and that Dudley did die from a gunshot wound. 11 Q: And what -- when you arrived back at 12 Kettle Point, and at the plaza, was there a bonfire at 13 this -- at that point on Highway 21? 14 A: No, there wasn't. It wasn't until 15 after I told the people what had happened that -- that 16 this bonfire appeared. 17 Q: Okay. And what did you do next, Mr. 18 George? 19 A: I went back to my home. My sisters 20 had already started to go to my home. There were some 21 people already gathering over there so we just went over 22 to -- to my place just to, I guess, sit. 23 Q: Okay. And before we go on, Mr. 24 George, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. You 25 were asked to consent to the disclosure of your brother's
191 criminal record; is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you consented to that disclosure? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And were you familiar, prior to the 6 receipt of a copy of the criminal record, as to the 7 criminal record that your brother, Dudley George, had? 8 A: I knew he had a criminal record, but 9 I didn't know what was all on it. 10 Q: Yeah. And perhaps, Commissioner, we 11 could mark as the next exhibit, Exhibit P-335, the 12 criminal record of Dudley George? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-335, your Honour. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 335. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-335: Anthony O'Brien George DOB 18 March 17, 1957, Criminal 19 convictions, conditional 20 and absolute discharges and 21 related Information 1974-11- 22 08/1994-11-07 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And there's a copy on the desk in
201 front of you, Mr. George. The charge -- there's a charge 2 of -- in November of 1974 of bigamy, were you aware of 3 that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And at that time your brother would 6 have been seventeen (17); 1974, seventeen (17) or 7 eighteen (18)? 8 A: Around there, yes. 9 Q: And then he was convicted of arson in 10 December of 1974 and that's the charge that you were 11 aware of? 12 A: Yes. It's a charge -- probably it's 13 the most -- one of the ones that stick in my mind the 14 most because of what had happened there. 15 Q: And that was as I understand it, he 16 was arrested along with some other young people and he 17 was the only one who was charged? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And then the -- there are a number of 20 charges in the '70's down to '78, then there's a charge 21 in 1982, June 1982, a conviction of assault. Were you 22 aware of that? 23 A: No, I wasn't. 24 Q: And were you aware that in 1982 your 25 brother was sentenced to prison. Do you recall that?
211 A: I can remember him going to jail but 2 I don't really know what the charges were that led to 3 that. 4 Q: And then in 1990 -- the next 5 conviction is in 1990 some eight (8) years later and 6 that's driving while impaired? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And failure to provide a breath 9 sample? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then the next -- and the last 12 charge was in November -- a conviction was in November of 13 1994, theft over one thousand (1000) dollars and failure 14 to attend Court. Were you aware of those convictions? 15 A: I wasn't aware of that last one. 16 Q: Okay. Now, after the -- you -- after 17 the evening of September 6th and the morning of September 18 7th, I understand you and your family prepared for the 19 funeral of your brother Dudley George? 20 A: Yes. We -- we had to go out to pick 21 a funeral director and start to make them arrangements. 22 Q: And were there some issues as you 23 recall with respect to the release of your brother's body 24 for burial? 25 A: Yes. After we chose a funeral
221 director and he was going out to pick -- to get the body, 2 Dudley's body, he phoned me and I can't remember the day 3 about five o'clock and he said he was going to come back 4 home because they weren't going to release the body that 5 day. 6 Q: And that was Mr. Gilpin? 7 A: Yes, it was. 8 Q: And he was the funeral director from 9 the funeral home here in Forest? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what then happened? 12 A: I told him just to hang on and I was 13 going to go over and I was -- to see the Chief. And I 14 went over to the school, Hillside School, and there was a 15 large gathering of -- of Chiefs, I know Ovide Mercredi 16 was there and Chief Tom and there were some -- some of 17 the higher ranking OPP officers in there and there was 18 just several people I guess meeting there. 19 And I asked the Chiefs for their help to - 20 - for me to get this body released so we could bring it 21 home and start to prepare it for burial. 22 Q: And what then happened? 23 A: I got a call about an hour and a half 24 later and they said in fact that the body was going to be 25 released and Mr. Gilpin could then bring it back to start
231 to prepare it. 2 Q: Okay. And did you then -- after your 3 brother's body had been returned to the funeral home -- 4 home in Forest did you learn anything from the funeral 5 director about your brother's body? 6 A: Yes. When he first brung the body 7 down, he -- usually you have this small period of time 8 for the family to -- to view the body before people 9 started to come in and he talked to us about it and he 10 said -- he says, I think your brother was shot twice. 11 And I said, No, they only told me once. 12 He says, No. He says, I think there was 13 something -- something unusual here because there was a - 14 - a piece gone out of his leg and he asked us to feel 15 that spot and he says there was a chunk cut out of there 16 and there was packed with cotton batting and there was 17 some bandage over it, but he says he's never seen that 18 before and this is why he thought maybe he had been shot 19 twice. 20 Q: So, he had -- had a bullet -- he 21 thought a bullet had hit your brother in his leg? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you, as I understand it, tried to 24 obtain an autopsy -- a copy of the autopsy report and 25 were unable to attend one -- obtain one until the Kenneth
241 Deane trial; was that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And the, as I understand it, at the 4 time -- at the Kenneth Deane trial when the autopsy 5 report was going to introduced, you and -- through your 6 Counsel, asked for time to review it before it was made 7 public? 8 A: Yes, we wanted to -- to check that 9 one (1) area on the autopsy report to see if it had 10 mentioned anything. We went through a period of time 11 there trying to get this report because usually we can 12 get them within a month after the -- a person passes 13 away, but as we tried to get that, we had a verbal report 14 from a Dr. Perkins and -- but we never did get the 15 written report because they said we were caught in some - 16 - some grey area of the law at that time and if we -- we 17 wanted it, then we would have to go to the Coroner's and 18 either take them to court or whatever, so, we chose at 19 that time not -- not to do that. 20 Q: And the -- you had -- Dr. Perkins had 21 given you a verbal report as his findings? 22 A: Yes, but that spot was never 23 mentioned at that time and -- and it wasn't until we seen 24 that report that -- that it talked about that under 25 unusual findings on the body.
251 Q: Now, the -- before we go on, 2 Commissioner, I just realized that -- that Mr. Downard's 3 not here and normally someone from his office is -- 4 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'm here. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, sorry. Thank you. 6 I just realized that they weren't there and I thought I 7 might -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 9 realize it either. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Okay. Before we -- at some point you 13 received a visit after your brother's death from Chief 14 Superintendent Coles and Mr. Jim Potts? 15 A: Yes, we did. 16 Q: And, was that before the funeral of 17 your brother? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: And can you tell us what was the -- 20 was your -- what did Chief Coles -- Chief Superintendent 21 Coles and Mr. Potts say when they came to your house? 22 A: They just come over to -- to see the 23 family and -- and -- and I guess our -- our hopes of -- 24 when -- when they asked if they could come and meet with 25 us is -- is that at that time maybe we were going to get
261 some answers as to -- as to what had happened that night, 2 but when -- there was nothing said, really, about that. 3 And -- and it was -- it was, I guess, a -- 4 just a meeting to come and see, you know, how we were 5 doing and so forth and -- and then they left, but we 6 never did get no answers that day as to what had 7 happened. 8 Q: And had you asked that day, the Chief 9 -- do you recall asking Chief Superintendent Coles as to 10 what happened. 11 A: I'm pretty sure I asked him. 12 Q: And Chief Superintendent Coles was 13 there to express condolences about the death of your 14 brother and -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And Mr. Jim Potts was a member of the 17 First Nations policing branch of the OPP; is that 18 correct? Did you know Mr. Potts at that time? 19 A: I didn't know Mr. Potts at that time, 20 but that's what he'd -- he'd mentioned. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: That's what he'd said when he came. 23 Q: That's what he said when he came? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: You hadn't met him before?
271 A: No. 2 Q: And prior to the death of your 3 brother, can you tell us a little bit about your 4 relationship with the Ontario Provincial Police? 5 A: Well, my relationship with the 6 Ontario Provincial Police, I guess, probably goes back a 7 ways. As you know, I'm a youth worker for my community 8 and even when I was doing my job as Employment Councillor 9 for the -- for the youth in the community, I would -- I 10 would work along with the police, trying to get either 11 some of our youth into law enforcement or customs or 12 security type jobs. 13 Even as I go through the -- the Children 14 and Family Services now, I do a lot of work with young 15 offenders and I'm also into the Family Courts in which, 16 sometimes, I have to work along with the police, not only 17 Anishnaabeg police, but the OPP, Sarnia police or London 18 police. 19 So, I have to -- to work along with the 20 police and I've had a pretty good relationship with them. 21 I used to play hockey with some of them during the years 22 as we -- as we grew -- I guess, were going through our, I 23 guess, our age where we could still play. 24 But, I had a -- probably a pretty good 25 relationship with them, as well as a lot of my family
281 members are OPP members. 2 Q: And since the shooting, was there -- 3 has been there -- has there been a change in your 4 relationship with the OPP? 5 A: There's not been too much of a -- of 6 a change. I still have to maintain my work in the Courts 7 in Sarnia and all over, so I have to be on a -- on a 8 working relationship with the police. 9 Q: And the -- were you -- do you know if 10 your brother, Dudley George, was a hunter? 11 A: Not to my knowledge. 12 Q: And we've heard that -- some evidence 13 that he did go hunting from time to time when he was on 14 the Army camp, but you had never seen him hunt? 15 A: I've never seen him hunt, but as I 16 listen to and learned about it as we come through these 17 proceedings, I -- I certainly have an understanding, too, 18 that if they would go out and hunt it was for survival, 19 as well, and also learning to do that, because maybe food 20 wasn't that great at that time and they just went and did 21 that to get the meat. 22 Q: But you, personally, had never seen 23 him with a -- hunt, or had you ever seen him with a 24 firearm? 25 A: No.
291 Q: And the -- in the book in front of 2 you, there's a -- on the left, to your left, yes, at the 3 beginning, there's -- you'll find a letter dated July 4 17th, 1970 -- '96. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: It should be -- I think the third -- 9 oh, it's -- I think, Mr. George, it'll be in the, 10 hopefully... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I got too many documents here. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: This is a letter from Mr. Thomas 19 O'Grady, who at the time was the Commissioner of the 20 Ontario Provincial Police, and it's a letter of apology 21 to you and your family for the inappropriate memorabilia 22 created during the incident at Ipperwash and it reads: 23 ˘On behalf of the Ontario Provincial 24 Police and its members, I wish to 25 apologize to you and your family for
301 the inappropriate memorabilia created 2 during the incident at Ipperwash. 3 While I am assured that it was never 4 intended to offend anyone, it ought 5 never to have been created and it is 6 not representative of the 7 professionalism of the Ontario 8 Provincial Police. Please accept my 9 apology and be assured that appropriate 10 action is being taken.÷ 11 And did you receive a copy of that letter, 12 Mr. George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And perhaps, Commissioner, we could 15 have that marked the next exhibit. It would be P-336. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-336, your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-336: July 17th, 1996 letter of 20 apology to Maynard (Sam) D. 21 George from Mr. Thomas 22 O'Grady, Commissioner OPP 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And did you, personally, see any of
311 the memorabilia that's being referred to in that letter? 2 A: I never seen any of the cups or any 3 t-shirts that was made. I did see a copy of the little 4 cresting that was being put on the -- on the cups though. 5 Q: And when did you see that, Mr. 6 George? 7 A: I would -- I don't know the exact 8 date. I received a copy of it from I think one of my 9 sisters who had got it from the little store that was 10 making them or something. 11 Q: Which -- and the -- your brother was 12 buried on September 11th of 1995? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And he was buried at Stoney Point? 15 A: Yes, he was. 16 Q: At the cemetery at Stoney Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you tell us about his burial? 19 I take it -- I understand there were many people who 20 attended? 21 A: I really can't recall a whole lot 22 about the funeral. I know that we -- we buried him on 23 that day and he is buried back in the cemetery in Stoney 24 Point. 25 Q: And I understand that after your
321 brother was shot, the Ontario Provincial Police took the 2 position that your brother had been armed and shot at the 3 police; is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the Government of Ontario took 6 the position that the Park occupation was illegal and 7 your brother Dudley George had been an illegal occupier 8 at the time of his death; is that correct? 9 A: That was their position. 10 Q: And what was the affect of those 11 positions and you and on the members of your family? 12 A: Well, I guess first of all, knowing 13 Dudley and knowing that he never used firearms or 14 anything that we could not believe that he would -- he 15 would use firearms particularly at a time such as that. 16 We knew from his statements before that, 17 that he thought the police wouldn't shoot unarmed 18 people. So, that told me he was -- he wasn't armed at 19 that time and that he wasn't going to have any arms. 20 So, for the statements that come out that 21 the police were returning fire, we -- we couldn't believe 22 that. And although it was the official police statement 23 at the time, or I should say it is still on record as -- 24 as that even though through the courts it's been proven 25 that Dudley was unarmed, they have never changed that
331 neither. 2 So -- but we couldn't believe that -- that 3 what they were saying that he was armed. 4 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner the 5 impact that the death of your brother at outside 6 Ipperwash Provincial Park has had on you and your family 7 and your community? 8 A: Well, the impact it's had on -- I 9 guess I'll start when I look back on it right from the 10 beginning, it had a very big impact on my family. I 11 guess just -- just the thought of losing -- or losing 12 someone, your brother or your sister, that always puts a 13 big impact into one's life. 14 It always, I guess, breaks your heart when 15 that happens. So, we had to look at that and we had to 16 think and listen to all the reports that were going on. 17 We had to start to make decisions whether or not we were 18 just going to -- to let things go or we're going to try 19 to find out what had happened. Maybe try and get the 20 record set straight on it. 21 So, it started to have a very big impact 22 on -- on my brothers and sisters just for what was 23 saying. As far as our community, we could see the impact 24 with the children and some of the families around there. 25 There was a lot of fear as to the unknown;
341 not knowing what was going to happen next; not knowing 2 whether they were going to come in to the other 3 communities and start to -- to look for people or we'd 4 just -- I know at one time we moved our mother-in-law out 5 into another community because we just were uncertain of 6 what would happen at that time. 7 It was just about like --I don't know, 8 when you went out it was almost like a war zone you see 9 on TV. If you go and watch where these cement barricades 10 and stuff were all up, everyone in the town -- these were 11 -- this is what the atmosphere was like and that's what 12 it seemed like to us and so... 13 Q: And over the -- after the immediate 14 time passed and the barricades -- the barricade that 15 you're referring to is the barricade that had been 16 erected in the, what we've referred to as the 'sandy 17 parking lot', the access road from the intersection of 18 Army Camp Road to -- and -- and East Parkway Drive north 19 to Lake Huron? 20 A: I'm not referring to that blockade, 21 I'm referring to the ones that were outside. I'm 22 referring to the ones that were over here on Townshead 23 Line where you -- 24 Q: Oh, the -- the -- 25 A: -- come into town every day and you
351 were reminded about what had happened. 2 Q: And, how long were the barricades and 3 the -- what you mean -- the checkpoints that were 4 established by the OPP; is that what you're -- you're 5 referring to, those? 6 A: Those were also outside of the -- the 7 boundaries of our community as well and you were stopped 8 whenever you went into -- come out of the community or 9 went into the community. 10 Q: And, how long did those checkpoints 11 or barricades -- how long were they up, Mr. George? 12 A: I would think for a couple of weeks. 13 I'm not exactly sure on that. 14 Q: And, can you tell us the longer term 15 impact on you and your family of the events of September 16 6th, 1995? 17 A: Well, it -- it -- the longer term 18 effects were that -- that it became very hard on us as we 19 started to proceed through this. From the beginning 20 trying to -- to get legal counsel was even -- even very 21 hard. 22 We had counted on Ron who was, at that 23 time, practising law and he had introduced us to a -- a 24 professor by the name, I think it was Bruce Feldthusen 25 from a University and he come down and he talked to us
361 about this case before we even started it. 2 And -- and I can remember him asking us 3 one (1) question before we even got going: Are you -- 4 are you guys doing this for money or are you doing it to 5 find the truth? And we all said, We're doing it to find 6 the truth. 7 So, we started to proceed along in that 8 area, but -- but we have a very, very hard time finding a 9 lawyer. We couldn't find one in this area. And it was 10 my brother-in-law Gary George who -- who said he knew a 11 lawyer in -- in Toronto by the name of Delia Opekokew. 12 And we set up an appointment with Delia 13 and we went down. We met with her and we told her our 14 story. Pam, Pierre, and myself went down. We talked to 15 Delia, we told her our story and she said she thought she 16 could help us. 17 Q: And, the -- I don't want to get into 18 the lawsuit or what happened with the lawsuit, Mr. 19 George, but you did, as we know, commence a lawsuit and 20 it was ultimately settled. 21 And, as well, you had asked for a Public 22 Inquiry and ultimately this Public Inquiry was -- was 23 called, but can you tell us, if anything else, about the 24 effect on you, personally, of the events or on your 25 community of the events?
371 A: Well, it's -- it's taken, I guess, a 2 lot of -- a lot of time, a span out of my life; one that 3 I could probably use to -- to spend with my grandsons or 4 -- or more so with my wife, my children, because it -- 5 it's a lot of work and it's a lot of hard work to -- to 6 do this and when I started I did not think it was going 7 to be this much. 8 We had some very simple questions in the 9 beginning; somebody tell us what happened. All we want 10 to know is the truth. If somebody would have sat up and 11 said this is what had happened; that's all we were 12 asking. 13 We didn't want it to carry on for years 14 and years and years and -- and finally get to the point 15 where we're at now, but go through that -- then ten (10) 16 year span, that -- that's rough on a person. 17 Q: Thank you. And before I close, is 18 there anything else you wish to add, Mr. George? 19 A: Not at this time. 20 Q: And are there any recommendations 21 that you wish to have the Commissioner consider? 22 A: Could I withhold on my 23 recommendations for a while and maybe address them to the 24 Commissioner at a later date? 25 Q: And, why is that? Do you want to
381 hear the other evidence? 2 A: I think it would -- I think I would 3 rather sit and listen to -- to all the evidence and make 4 recommendations after that time rather than to just sit 5 and listen to half of it. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Perhaps, 7 Commissioner, that concludes our examination. And I 8 understand that Mr. Klippenstein will be asking as Mr. 9 Rosenthal had done before, to lead and Mr. Orkin did with 10 Mr. Mercredi to lead some evidence. 11 And then we will be doing a cross- 12 examination and perhaps it would be appropriate, I 13 understand that Mr. Klippenstein thinks he'll be about an 14 hour, but we could canvas the -- who we -- who intend to 15 cross-examine Mr. George and get an estimate as to their 16 time? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we 18 do that after Mr. Klippenstein? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we'll do that 20 after Mr. Klippenstein. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 24 to take your place at the table, Mr. Downard? Why don't 25 we just hold ourselves in place here while you do. Okay.
391 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Mr. George, I 2 wish to thank you very much for coming today and giving 3 your evidence and -- today and the last day. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 6 Klippenstein? 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 8 Commissioner. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 13 Q: Well, Sam, finally after ten (10) 14 years here we are. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Are you okay with that? 17 A: I'm quite okay. I have one request 18 for the Commissioner before I get going with this. It's 19 kind of a nice day outside, can we move outside for the 20 rest of the day? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would be 22 a good idea but I think it will be difficult to keep our 23 attention focussed. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN:
401 Q: Sam, just out of curiosity, you've 2 been through some seven (7) years of litigation in the 3 Courts and now you've been part way through an inquiry; 4 which do you like better? 5 A: I think the Inquiry. I think if we 6 had went through the Inquiry first, I think it would have 7 been a lot better. 8 Q: I'd -- I'd like to begin by picking 9 up on a few things that My Friend, Mr. Millar, raised in 10 his examination-in-chief. And I would like to go back to 11 a time before Dudley was shot and ask you a bit about 12 some of your activities before then and see whether they 13 are connected to what happened after Dudley was shot. 14 And Mr. Millar put on the projection, a 15 number of photographs of you and your family and some 16 traditional dancing costumes; do you recall that? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: And perhaps Mr. Millar can locate 19 those, and I -- I haven't given him a warning to do so, 20 but there were some photographs of you in some 21 traditional dancing costumes; do you recall that? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: Can you describe a little bit about 24 that dancing? You were a fairly -- a fair bit of a 25 younger man in some of those photographs.
411 A: I was only -- there are only two (2) 2 years old. 3 Q: How old? How old? 4 A: I said the photographs are only two 5 (2) years old. 6 Q: Okay. We have one on the screen now. 7 Thank you, Mr. Millar. And can you tell us a bit more 8 about those costumes and -- and what you're doing there? 9 A: Well we refer -- we refer to them as 10 regalia. 11 Q: As what? 12 A: Regalia, not as costumes. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But, I'm dressed in what they refer 15 to as a fancy dancer. It's more of a modern style type 16 dancing. It has a lot of movement and so forth with it. 17 But, my son who's standing in the middle of my daughters 18 there, he -- he was what we refer to as a traditional 19 dancer, as well as my daughters, they were both 20 traditional dancers as we went through the pow-wow 21 circuit. 22 Q: And Mr. Millar has kindly reminded me 23 that's Exhibit 333 for the record. Now, you mentioned 24 the pow-wow circuit; what's -- what's that? 25 A: Pow-wow circuit, we go from
421 community, supporting their pow-wows as they have them 2 each week. And usually, the communities, they all have 3 their own pow-wows on different weekends. 4 You very seldom see them running -- 5 butting head to head, so each one goes so that everybody 6 can go and support each other as they -- in their 7 community events that they have. 8 Q: So, what kind of communities would 9 you go visit? How far? Which ones? 10 A: I've travelled as far as -- out to 11 Marquette, Michigan. I've been up to Eagle Lake, which 12 is up near the Dryden area in Ontario. I've been down 13 into Ann Arbour Michigan, I've been out to Ottawa and all 14 the communities within Ontario whenever they have their 15 events. 16 Q: And what time period are we talking 17 about, when you made some of these trips? 18 A: Well it would be before 1995. It 19 would be, probably, I think Tammy was about two (2) years 20 old when we started -- or four (4) -- two (2) or four (4) 21 years old when we started. I'm not going to say how old 22 she is now. She's sitting out there looking at me. 23 But, we were involved in it for a good 24 twenty-five (25) years. 25 Q: And what got you started in -- in
431 pow-wow dancing? 2 A: It's just as a group of young people 3 in our community. There was a -- what they -- they held 4 their first princess pageant they called it, down at 5 Kettle Point, and we had a dancer come in and that 6 started to get us involved in starting to think about 7 wanting to do that. 8 So, my wife and a group of us started to 9 get together and we started to put regalia together and 10 started to go out to different communities and learn the 11 dances and dance from there. 12 Q: When you say, ˘put the regalia 13 together÷, what do you mean? 14 A: Well, there's a lot of work to -- to 15 putting them together. As you can see, I have a lot of 16 beadwork on my -- on my stuff and that takes a long time 17 to -- to put that all together. There's a lot of sewing 18 to put dresses together and so forth. 19 Q: So, who -- who made some of those 20 regalia that we see in the photograph? 21 A: My sister-in-laws and my wife and -- 22 and just different people. Some friends that help -- 23 whoever could do beadwork, they asked if they could help 24 me put that together. 25 Q: Did Veronica, your wife, do some of
441 those costumes, the regalia? 2 A: Yes, she did. She did some of the 3 beading, too, as well. 4 Q: And what about the regalia you're 5 wearing; is that custom made for you? 6 A: Pretty well, yeah. My colours, I 7 picked my own colours and the bustles there, the things 8 on my back, you order them to the colours that you want 9 and you match your beadworks and stuff to that. 10 Q: Do you still have that regalia -- 11 you're -- your outfit? 12 A: Yes, I do. I'm not going to do a 13 demonstration though. 14 Q: Can you describe very quickly what 15 you would actually do when you danced? 16 A: Just dancing. There's different 17 types of dancing; there's dancing with couples, there's 18 ones they -- social dancing, there's competition dancing, 19 there's -- they may do different dancing for -- for -- 20 for eagles or whatever. 21 There's just all kinds of them. I 22 couldn't even begin to -- to name them all. There's 23 intertribal dancing in which everybody comes out, even 24 your -- your spectators come out and get involved in the 25 dancing as they sing the songs.
451 Q: Did your -- did your family seen to 2 enjoy that activity? 3 A: I -- yeah, they enjoyed it. We 4 travelled every weekend. We would go and we'd meet up 5 with the -- the people that -- you know, just like a 6 great big huge family. You know, you'd just move around, 7 you'd go home, you'd do your work in the week and the 8 weekends you'd take off and -- and go to the pow-wow. 9 Q: And you'd what, get in a car and 10 travel together as a family or -- 11 A: Yeah. Cars, vans whatever. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. And did Veronica dance as 13 well? 14 A: No, she -- she was the one that 15 always stayed back and made sure that everybody was 16 prepared to go out. We had to make sure that once you 17 were out there, that you didn't drop nothing, so she was 18 back to make sure that the girls' hairs were braided and 19 everything was put on right and -- and then she would 20 send them out. 21 Q: Now, did the -- did the dances have 22 any particular meaning for you and your family or any 23 significance other than being enjoyable, I presume? 24 A: Later on, I -- I started to -- to 25 take notice in -- in some of the dances that were taking
461 -- they were having in regards to maybe someone having 2 someone passed on stuff and I started to watch what they 3 were doing there and became a little more interested in - 4 - in the traditional sides of it and the ceremonial 5 sides. 6 Q: And, when you say, "ceremonial side," 7 what do you mean? 8 A: Well, because they -- a lot of times 9 they have to -- to before you go in and -- and you 10 welcome your guests into the community, you always make 11 sure everything is all done right. They'll do a ceremony 12 for -- for people's travel there and people's travel home 13 and to watch over them while they're dancing there and 14 just -- just different ceremonies like that. 15 Q: And, do you still dance? 16 A: I haven't. Periodically I will, but 17 not too often. 18 Q: When did you last dance? 19 A: Probably about a year ago. I think 20 last July I went to Mount Pleasant, Michigan, and went 21 and attended their pow-wow. 22 Q: And you danced? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: I didn't know that. 25 A: You might have asked me if I would
471 and I would have said, no. I do it mostly for social 2 now. I'm not into competition dancing no more. 3 Q: You mentioned some ceremonies. Are 4 there any other ceremonies of a traditional nature that 5 are connected to -- to the dancing activities or that you 6 have done with your family? 7 A: There's lots of ceremonies that are - 8 - would be connected, particularly if you're going to go 9 through and do what -- they go from a competition pow-wow 10 to a traditional style pow-wow, there's -- there's more 11 ceremonies in the traditional pow-wow. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: It's a totally different layout in 14 how you enter the arena and how you do things. There, 15 they have ceremonies to prepare the grounds before you 16 go, they have feasts that do that to make sure the 17 grounds are safe for everyone as they come in. And they 18 talk to the spirits to -- to watch -- again, watch over 19 the people that are going to travel there. 20 Q: Have you been participating in 21 ceremonies such as that over the -- the period of the 22 last ten (10) years after Dudley's death as well? 23 A: Yes, I have. 24 Q: What sorts of ceremonies? 25 A: I've been involved in a lot of
481 different ceremonies, particularly since the time of 2 Dudley's death. I -- I started to work with the Elders 3 beforehand, because when I was going through my schooling 4 and that, I was also taking training on -- on traditional 5 counselling as well. 6 And so the Elders are -- they knew -- knew 7 me and they knew what -- what had happened, so they 8 started to prepare me for this -- this journey, this path 9 that I was going to go down they worked a lot with me. 10 Q: In what way? What do you mean? 11 A: They -- first of all, they -- they 12 had to talk to me about -- and what I can remember, one 13 (1) of the first things they talked to me about was fear, 14 because I was going to go into a path that they referred 15 to as the "unknown" and when you go into them, there's a 16 lot of fear there. 17 So, they talked to me about -- about fear 18 and what it could do to me if I didn't get a handle on it 19 right off the -- right from the beginning, because they 20 said if you let it -- the fear get a hold of you, it's 21 going to take you down a lot of paths where you don't 22 want to go and you might eventually not make it to where 23 you want to eventually end up. 24 Q: Now, what -- what do mean fear? Fear 25 about what? Fear in relation to what?
491 A: Fear about anything. I could have 2 feared the police, I could have feared the people. It 3 would have been just paranoia that got a hold of me and 4 that could have dragged me down. It wouldn't have given 5 me the -- I would have used all my strength and energy to 6 fight that off instead of putting it and channelling it 7 into something positive and moving forward. 8 Q: And, what did you channel it into? 9 A: I channelled it into finding out the 10 truth. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. And, did the Elders' advice 12 help you in -- in fighting for the truth? 13 A: Yes, it did very much. They would 14 take me and put me into sweat lodge ceremonies and they 15 would help me to deal -- they would get me to talk and by 16 talking that would help them to build that energy. They 17 would ask me to talk about any of the negative things to 18 get that negativity out of the way and -- and move 19 forward. 20 Q: What do you mean by "negativity"? 21 A: Negativity would be that I would 22 eventually start to -- to look at someone and start to do 23 a lot of blaming and a lot of hatred. They told me if I 24 was going to go down that path that I -- I would never 25 get to where I wanted to go.
501 Q: You know, Sam, you've been involved 2 in litigation for something like seven (7) or eight (8) 3 years and you brought legal action against the former 4 Premier of the Province and against a number of OPP 5 officers including an officer who was convicted of 6 killing your brother, but I must say I've never heard you 7 say a word in bitterness or express any amount of anger 8 towards any of those people. 9 Can you -- can you tell us about that? 10 A: Well in the beginning, all we asked 11 them to do was tell us the truth. Just someone tell us 12 something. I would've much rather not have went down 13 that path myself. I didn't expect to be into litigation 14 for seven (7) years. 15 I just didn't think that by asking for the 16 truth that it would become such a -- such a hard thing to 17 -- to get at. And I certainly found -- found things 18 different and difficult as we went through there. 19 Q: But, what -- what sort of 20 difficulties? Do you mean were -- you were personally 21 involved in a lot of the lawsuit stuff? 22 A: Well, we -- we did get into a lot of 23 -- a lot of difficulties trying to -- trying to get some 24 answers. You know, we -- we were into the Courts a lot 25 and -- and not being a person that was ever involved in
511 the Courts too much, I -- it was hard for me to 2 understand, you know, why -- why can't they just do this. 3 You know, why can't somebody just stand up 4 and say, Yeah, we did this and so forth. But, it's -- 5 that was like pulling teeth to try and get that out and 6 it -- it just became very difficult and frustrating at 7 times. 8 They -- just to try and get a simple 9 answer, we were sometimes eighteen (18) months in the 10 Courts so... 11 Q: Did -- did the OPP or the Provincial 12 Government ever apologize to you for the -- for the death 13 of your brother even after all the appeals and the 14 conviction had -- had run their course? 15 A: No, they haven't. 16 Q: You mentioned sweat lodges. Is there 17 any connection between them and what you did over the 18 years after the shooting of Dudley? 19 A: Just for my own personal well being 20 is why I went to -- to sweat lodges and seek the -- the 21 help of the Elders. 22 Q: Well, how is that helpful to you? 23 A: It helped -- it was helpful to me 24 because -- because I had the opportunity to -- to talk 25 what was on my mind and get out what I needed to get out
521 of me at that time. So, again -- so I could maintain 2 that -- that path where I wanted to end up -- eventually 3 end up. 4 Q: When -- when you say "talk," you mean 5 inside the sweat lodge? 6 A: Yeah. The sweat lodge -- and again, 7 I -- I've been cautioned by my Elders not to -- to say 8 about this but it was there to help me and to help me to 9 do that -- some of that healing I needed to do as I went 10 through this process. 11 Q: Do you -- do you still do sweat 12 lodges? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: How often? 15 A: I do them as -- I guess as often as I 16 need to. We just did one Saturday night. 17 Q: This Saturday night? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Where? 20 A: I -- I have a sweat lodge at my 21 place, my home and that's where we go and I can -- I have 22 I guess been given that right to conduct them and so I 23 have them at my home whenever I need to -- to have one. 24 We just go in and -- and do the work we need to do. 25 Q: Where is it; around your house; the
531 backyard? Where is it? 2 A: It's in my backyard. It sits in my 3 backyard. I -- I took the stand that I wasn't going to 4 put it in the bush or nothing. I was just going to have 5 it close where -- because I'm responsible for that -- 6 that lodge, so I have to keep it where I can keep an eye 7 on it, as well. 8 Q: Who built it? 9 A: I did. 10 Q: With what? 11 A: Myself and, I guess, the Elders 12 helped me build the first one; they showed me how to 13 build it. But, I have a lot of people that come in to 14 help us put this together. There's a lot of people 15 sitting out in the audience there that come in -- they 16 help us to do this? 17 Q: And when was that? 18 A: We built this one two (2) years ago 19 and it's now getting time to re -- re-do one, again. 20 Q: Did you have one before that? 21 A: I've had one there for approximately 22 ten (10) years now. 23 Q: And were you doing sweats all the 24 time since Dudley's death? 25 A: Not for a while, because I didn't
541 have that right to do them for a while. 2 Q: And what's the connection between 3 doing a sweat and -- and Dudley's death? You said you -- 4 you talked out what was on your mind, how does that 5 happen in a sweat? 6 A: We can talk to the spirits and the 7 Creator. 8 Q: And what -- I guess it's -- it also 9 includes a ceremony of, or an atmosphere of -- sweat, 10 what does the word ˘sweat÷ mean? 11 A: I guess the closest way I can come to 12 that is to look at a -- a counselling group, like a bunch 13 of people and they get together in a circle to do some 14 counselling, whether it'll be for alcohol or -- or 15 something. They get in that circle and they talk about 16 what things are bothering them and other people lend 17 their support to help them and give them that incentive 18 to keep moving on for whatever they're doing. 19 So, that's, I guess, the best way I can 20 refer to that, is like a counselling group in -- in -- 21 the same as -- is a counselling group. What is said 22 there, stays there, so I can't say anymore about what -- 23 what is being said in there for individuals or even 24 myself. 25 Q: And why is it called a sweat lodge?
551 What's the sweat? 2 A: You sweat in there. It's -- it gets 3 warm in there. 4 Q: How does it get warm in there? 5 A: It gets warm in there because we use 6 rocks. We heat rocks and take them in there and we put 7 them in a pit and we use water on them to create that 8 sweat, and that's what -- what helps you. 9 It's a purification type thing. It'll 10 open your pores and -- and bring out a lot of -- of stuff 11 that are in there, in your bodies as well. 12 Q: And so you heat the rocks for your 13 own sweats at home? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: How do you do that? 16 A: With a fire. 17 Q: Behind your -- behind, in your back 18 yard? 19 A: Yes, I have a fire keeper that comes 20 in and sets the fire up in a certain way and he does all 21 that for me, and that's -- that's his job. I don't 22 interfere with how he sets the fires up. 23 He cuts his own wood and does everything - 24 - gets the -- I go out and pick the -- the rocks. I pick 25 certain rocks from -- that I want to use that night and
561 he puts them altogether and he starts the fire and when 2 they're ready, he comes in and tells me they're ready and 3 then we go out and we go into the sweat lodge and he 4 brings them in. 5 Q: Can you tell us about the rocks? Do 6 they have any significance or -- 7 A: The rocks are -- the first ones that 8 are brought in, there's five (5) of them that come in, 9 and the first one is set in the middle and that's for the 10 Creator and then you have your four (4) directions that 11 come in behind them, then after that they come in the 12 four (4) and they fill in the circle to represent that 13 circle of life, then you build them in. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. And who comes into the 15 sweat with you? 16 A: Anybody that needs to come in. The 17 people come for -- for different reasons, different 18 health, and they'll come into the sweat lodge. 19 Q: But -- 20 A: It doesn't matter whether they're -- 21 they're babies or elderly people. If it -- usually they 22 all come into the sweat. 23 Q: What kind of people have you had in 24 your sweats? 25 A: I'm not too sure what you mean by
571 what kind of people. 2 Q: I mean have you -- have you had non- 3 natives in your sweat lodge? 4 A: I have a lot of non-natives that come 5 to my sweat lodge. They -- whether they hear from a 6 friend or whatever, and they come down with them, if they 7 need some type of help in some way. I just don't take 8 people in for curiosity reasons. 9 Q: What kind of non-natives have -- have 10 come to you and had sweats with you? 11 A: I've had people that are in 12 institutions like jails. I had youth from youth 13 facilities in there. I had people from psychiatric wards 14 in there. Just anybody that needs any type of help. 15 Q: Any lawyers? 16 A: Yes, I've had lawyers in there. I've 17 had police officers in there. I've had elderly people in 18 there. I had different kinds of people. Like, I was 19 told that when people come to you for help that Creation 20 knows no colour and the people that are there have come 21 and seek you out for some reason and they're looking for 22 help. 23 Q: You -- you mentioned OPP officers. 24 Without breaching any confidences, can you tell us 25 anything about having a sweat with an OPP officer or
581 officers? Was this after the shooting of Dudley? 2 A: Pardon me? 3 Q: Was this after the shooting of 4 Dudley? 5 A: Yes. There was -- well, my cousins 6 come so and -- 7 Q: And they're officers? 8 A: Yes, they are. I usually don't talk 9 to them too much about their occupations and -- and stuff 10 because it's -- we're not there for that reason. We're 11 there for -- to -- to look for help and that's where we 12 go. 13 Q: Do you -- do you have youth in there 14 sometimes, in the sweat lodge? 15 A: Yes. I put on a couple of sweats for 16 -- for children. Not too often. They don't -- they 17 don't come too often and ask you for a lodge but now and 18 then it happens. 19 Q: And how long is a sweat; an hour or 20 five (5) hours or what? 21 A: It all depends. You can't put no 22 time limit on it. 23 Q: Give us an idea. What -- 24 A: It depends on how many people. It 25 could last up to eight (8) hours.
591 Q: What's your longest sweat? 2 A: Never really timed it. But, I don't 3 know, maybe eight (8) hours. 4 Q: And this -- does this take place in 5 the evening or the night? 6 A: Mornings, evenings. I've had some 7 people come to me at midnight saying that they needed 8 help right then. So, that's what we did. We got things 9 ready at midnight. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. Do you wear any clothes in 11 the sweat or are you naked? 12 A: We wear clothes. 13 Q: What do you wear? 14 A: I wear my shorts and I have a towel 15 and the women wear their blouses and their dresses and we 16 go in that way. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Do you have them summer, 18 winter? 19 A: Summer and winter. 20 Q: Isn't it cold in winter? 21 A: It gets very cold. Particularly we 22 got to walk through the snow bare foot -- bare feet and - 23 - but if you have to do it, you have to do it that's all. 24 Q: Are there other people in your 25 community that have sweats?
601 A: Yes, there is. There's a -- I don't 2 even know how many's in the community now. There's a few 3 around the community. 4 Q: Is that something that's happening 5 more or less or...? 6 A: It's starting to happen more and more 7 now as people -- people get back and start to look back 8 into the traditional teachings and so forth. 9 Q: And were there sweats happening when 10 you were young that you knew of? 11 A: None that I knew of. I can't ever 12 remember when I was a child or even hearing about a sweat 13 lodge. 14 Q: Do you know why that -- why that was? 15 A: My thoughts on -- because it's been 16 just recently that a lot of our traditions have been 17 coming out and -- and people are talking about them more. 18 Our drums are starting to come back out now. 19 I know in earlier parts that we weren't 20 allowed to do a lot of this stuff. They were -- we 21 weren't allowed to do any ceremonies or have sweat lodges 22 or dance or anything and that wasn't to -- probably 23 withing the last fifty/sixty (50/60) years that maybe we 24 were allowed to do this. 25 And that's why I made the comment. I put
611 my sweat lodge in the backyard and not in the bush. I 2 wasn't going to hide it for no -- for nobody. 3 Q: So, you're making a statement by 4 putting your sweat lodge in your yard? 5 A: I guess I kind of made a small 6 statement by it but -- but people don't mind it being 7 there. 8 Q: You mentioned drums and I understand 9 you work with the drum as well? 10 A: Yes, I'm a drum keeper for -- our 11 drum has a name, Anumnimke' Ozozowin (phonetic). And 12 that refers to this drum comes from where the 13 thunderbirds nest and that's how it got its name. 14 But, I am the drum keeper of that and I 15 have a group -- there's a group of people that come and 16 they sing with the drum and there's ladies that -- that 17 follow with the drum and also help the guys that are 18 singing, they help to sing as well. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. So, why do you do that? 20 A: I do that for enjoyment and 21 relaxation. We also do it to -- to help people. It 22 helps the people. 23 Again, there's many different songs you 24 can -- you can sing. There's healing songs. There's 25 songs for -- for -- for just about everything; we have
621 flag songs, we have veteran songs, we have birthday 2 songs, we have social songs, we have -- we have, I guess, 3 there's some songs that refer particularly for -- 4 specifically for children. There's some guys that can 5 put the songs together; they -- they may talk about, 6 "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star". So, there's all 7 different kinds of songs there and they're used for all 8 different occasions. 9 Q: What sort of occasions? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Do you do -- do you drum at 12 occasions? 13 A: Yes, we -- we sing at funerals. 14 We've actually did a couple of weddings where -- where we 15 sing for the -- for the bride coming down the aisle. 16 We've done that before. We sing at wakes. We sing at 17 birthday parties. We sing just to -- to get -- just to 18 get together and sing. We do our drum feasts and 19 everybody gets involved in them, so there's lots of 20 activities to do with a drum. 21 Q: So, do you spend a fair bit of time 22 doing drumming? 23 A: Not as much as I --I want to right 24 now, but yes, I'd like to be at the drum more. 25 Q: Do you practise?
631 A: We practise once -- once a week. We 2 get together and it's kind of just like a social evening 3 for us. We practise our songs, but we also have a lot of 4 fun. We tease other quite a bit. Usually -- usually 5 somebody gets tease pretty heavily every week and I know 6 they like to -- to tease me quite a bit for one (1) 7 reason or another, but -- 8 Q: What reasons? 9 A: Well, we won't go into that right 10 now, but it's -- it's all in fun. It's for fun, that's 11 all it is. 12 Q: But, how -- how do you get a drum? 13 A: A drum is given to you. It's given 14 to you for -- for a specific reason. This one was given 15 to me. It was given to us shortly after -- after Dudley 16 had passed away and it was to -- to help with the 17 healing. 18 Of course, helping with the healing means 19 that you also have to learn the songs to sing on it. 20 This drum I have here, has a lot of songs that -- 21 different kinds of songs that I can't sing on it and I've 22 been told not to sing on it because it's -- it's there 23 for the people and it's there to help them with that 24 healing that they need. 25 Q: Who gave it to you? How did you get
641 it, if you can say that? 2 A: I can say how I got it. I'm never 3 ashamed about how I get stuff and who gives it to me. 4 I was talking to a guy from -- and he's an 5 Anishnaabeg police officer. I think his name was Les 6 Cloutier or George Cloutier (phonetic). I can't 7 remember what his name was, but -- 8 Q: When was that? When was that? 9 A: That was probably about four (4) or 10 five (5) months after -- after Dudley had -- had died. 11 And I asked him if he's from the Nipissing First Nations 12 where they get moose and asked him to get me a hide so we 13 could -- we could make a drum. 14 Q: You wanted to make a drum? 15 A: Yeah. And he said he would do that. 16 Then, I think, the following week he come in and he 17 presented us with this drum because he asked me -- 18 Q: A whole drum? 19 A: -- he asked me to get all my singers 20 together and -- and he brung that drum and they made a 21 presentation to us and that's how we got the drum and 22 from there everything just comes as a -- as they go 23 along. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Why had you decided to try 25 and get a moose hide for a drum just after Dudley was
651 shot? 2 A: Because it's usually the kind of hide 3 you use to put over your -- your drum hubs, is moose, 4 because it's a little thicker. 5 Q: And why, at that particular time 6 after Dudley was shot? 7 A: Well, we'd -- we'd been singing 8 before that, or starting to sing, and -- and we used a 9 small bass drum that we had gotten, the kind to go along 10 with that drum set, and we got one (1) of them old ones 11 and that's what we were using, so we decided we were 12 going to make one, but we never got around to it. We got 13 that one presented to us and that's what we're still 14 using today. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Still using it? 16 Commissioner, I don't know if this would 17 be an appropriate time to take a break. I'll be a little 18 bit longer yet. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure, it 20 would be a good time. We've been an hour and fifteen 21 (15) minutes since we started. Let's take a break. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 -- Upon recessing at 11:46 a.m.
661 --- Upon resuming at 12:05 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now resumed. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: Before the break we were talking about 8 the drum -- 9 A: And what and for different age 10 categories and stuff like that. But Twinkle, Twinkle 11 Little Star is, I guess, a song that you sing for -- for 12 nursery rhymes and stuff like that and they incorporate - 13 - made it into a song that you can sing on a drum. 14 Q: So they would take a non-native song 15 and incorporate it, to some extent? 16 A: Yeah. They would use the wording in 17 it and they would use the chanting to fit it so the song 18 sound good. I don't know how to sing it, but I got some 19 people with their hands up out there. 20 But, no, we don't know a lot of them songs 21 like that, but they are out there. I was just trying to 22 give you examples of different songs that are -- are 23 there for -- to help the people. 24 Q: You mentioned, I think, at one point, 25 that in your view, the Creator knows no colour; is that
671 right? 2 A: That's the way it was explained to 3 me, yes. 4 Q: I take it you've done some work in 5 non-native communities as well and you've, for example, 6 you've coached a hockey team off the reserve; is that 7 right? 8 A: Yeah, a lot of my -- I guess, it's 9 just more to -- to help myself. I volunteered to coach 10 different hockey teams and I've coached here in this 11 arena with a house league team, not having any kids from 12 our community on that team, but also just to come out and 13 -- and do something different, and that's to -- to help 14 them little guys. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. And so that was a team here 16 in Forest that had no native kids on it? 17 A: No, there was none. Just little guys 18 that were learning to skate and -- well, I guess they 19 knew how to skate but they weren't on any of the 20 travelling teams, so... 21 Q: And why did you do that? 22 A: Just to, I guess, give myself 23 something else to do. It's not that I don't have lots to 24 do, it's just that I -- sometimes I have to -- to find 25 something different to do, to occupy my mind and my time
681 and -- and just to put something else, I guess, into -- 2 instead of thinking all the time about certain things. I 3 do that, it'll take my thoughts and give me some -- some 4 -- something fun to do. 5 Q: Can you tell me a little bit about 6 the activities you do for -- for kids or youth in your 7 community? 8 A: Well, right now I'm not really too 9 active, but before I was -- I worked a lot with the -- 10 the native youth Olympics, which is all the first -- 11 seven (7) bands in the area. 12 They get together and they have Olympic- 13 style events running, and high jumping and all that kind 14 of stuff and -- and we do that once a year. 15 I was instrumental in the Santa Claus 16 parade for our community, just so that the kids had that 17 opportunity to be -- to take part in a parade and they 18 don't have to go way out to -- to do that. 19 So, there's -- there's them type of 20 activities for them to do there. Like, I may take them 21 out to -- to things like Monster Gam (phonetic); that's 22 these big truck -- truck things and stuff like that. 23 Just giving them different opportunities to get out there 24 and see what else is available to them out there. 25 I know I was running a program there and I
691 called it ˘Boys to Mens club÷ and it was for -- for boys 2 that were seven (7) to thirteen (13) years of age and 3 their fathers to help them build that communication gap, 4 so once they got over that magic age of thirteen (13), 5 that they would know how to communicate at that time. 6 Q: So, you organized a Santa Claus 7 parade on the reserve; is that it -- 8 A: Yes, it's gradually getting -- it's - 9 - I think it will be into its twelfth year this year, and 10 it's gradually getting bigger. 11 Q: Were you ever Santa Claus? 12 A: I guess not a good one. 13 Q: Can you tell us, overall in relation 14 to the death of Dudley George, the things that you've 15 talked about that touched on your traditional ceremonies 16 including the dancing that you've participated in and the 17 drum and the sweat lodges and -- were there others -- 18 very quickly, were there other similar ceremonies or 19 activities that you were involved in? 20 A: There were our feasts that we were 21 involved in. We've always when -- when we bury our 22 people, we all send a dish of food along with them for 23 their journey. 24 Q: Did you have a feast for Dudley? 25 A: Yes, we did. We had one the day he -
701 - he was buried and usually for on that anniversary for 2 the next four (4) years we -- we also have one which is 3 because the people there we know they -- they're going on 4 a long journey and a hard journey and there's lots of 5 times it becomes difficult for them as -- as they are 6 travelling onto the spirit world. 7 So, we continuously feed them as they go 8 through that period of time. 9 Q: So did you have four (4) anniversary 10 feasts for Dudley after his death? 11 A: Yes, we did. 12 Q: And at the feast you -- did you give 13 food to Dudley's spirit; is that what you're saying? 14 A: Yes. There's always when you have 15 them type of feasts there's always a spirit dish that's 16 put out first before anybody else eats to -- to honour 17 them spirits and thank them. 18 Q: What do you put on the dish for 19 Dudley? 20 A: Usually we'd -- with Dudley's we put 21 all his favourite foods down on his -- particularly on 22 his first feast, just whatever he liked to eat. 23 We made sure we had them foods available; 24 banana cream pie and hamburgers and stuff like that. So, 25 you -- you honour them by giving them what their
711 favourite foods were. 2 Q: And how do you give it to them? 3 A: We usually take it to a fire and put 4 it into a fire that's built specifically for that 5 purpose. And -- and our beliefs are -- our teachings are 6 that it goes instantaneously to that person and to the 7 spirits when it's put into the fire. 8 Q: And that's what you did for Dudley? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Is there a connection between the 11 various ceremonies and activities that you've mentioned 12 in a traditional sense; your drumming, your dancing, the 13 feasts and so forth, and the attempt after Dudley's death 14 to -- to find out what had happened? 15 A: The healing part of it. If you don't 16 take care of yourself as you -- as you go through 17 particularly this -- this type of process I've been 18 through, I wouldn't have taken care of myself, I don't 19 think -- I don't know if I would have achieved what we -- 20 we're trying to do, and that was to get at the truth. 21 I know you can set all kinds of goals and 22 objectives when you're looking at something. I know I 23 put three (3) forward just particularly for myself and -- 24 and we haven't reached them three (3) yet. But if you 25 don't I guess take care of yourself, you won't -- you
721 won't achieve it. 2 Q: What are the three (3) objectives you 3 mentioned? 4 A: My three (3) objectives when after we 5 met with my family and that was, the Number 1 was to make 6 sure my brother never ever got forgotten because I don't 7 think he deserves to be forgotten. 8 And Number 2 was to get a public inquiry 9 and that is what -- where we are at today. 10 And the third one was to have the truth. 11 And we're still working towards that one. 12 Q: Are you saying that your traditional 13 ceremonies gave you strength for that process? 14 A: Yes, it did. It kept my spirituality 15 alive within -- inside of me in order to help me maintain 16 that and keep going through this. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. We've heard evidence about 18 the lands that became Ipperwash Provincial Park and 19 Dudley's connection to those lands. We've heard evidence 20 that your great grandfather I believe, Albert George 21 lived in what later became Ipperwash Provincial Park. 22 Do -- do you remember hearing that? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: What -- what does that mean for you? 25 A: What that means for me is that I know
731 that that's where my great grandfather lived. I know 2 that's where my brother died. 3 It's what took place in between that 4 periods of time, I guess, is what the important parts are 5 in all of this, and was to -- to look at how the lands 6 were taken and where they ended up -- eventually ended up 7 and -- and just exactly what Dudley was doing there that 8 night when he was -- when he was reclaiming them, so... 9 Q: We've heard evidence that Dudley 10 moved back onto the Stoney Point lands and lived there 11 for some time in some -- for a couple of years in 12 circumstances of significant hardship, in the sense of 13 not having electricity or plumbing or heating as we 14 normally know it. 15 And then we heard evidence that he and a 16 friend spent time this summer, I think before he was 17 killed, near the lakes that are near the parklands, and 18 that at one point he said that he would be willing to die 19 for those lands. Do you remember hearing that? 20 A: I remember hearing that just the 21 other day through that article that that lady had wrote 22 it. I guess it was titled, Remembering Dudley George. 23 Q: Yeah. When you hear evidence that 24 Dudley was saying he'd be willing to die for those lands, 25 how does it make you feel?
741 A: I know he -- by listening to the 2 article that he made the statement, but I didn't ever 3 think it would happen, not in these times and days. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. What do you mean? 5 A: Well, I didn't think in -- in today's 6 society that -- that things would ever come to -- to what 7 had happened there. I know that we -- we just mentioned 8 this not too long ago, where he didn't have no fear of 9 being shot and I don't think his statement falls into -- 10 his statement would fall into that category as well, 11 so... 12 Q: You mentioned that Dudley was 13 reclaiming the land. We've heard evidence that the lands 14 in the subsequent Provincial Park had originally been 15 treaty lands, guaranteed to your people by the Crown in 16 perpetuity. 17 Do you recall hearing that evidence? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And we've heard evidence that there 20 was a process called a surrender in 1928 whereby the 21 lands that became the Park were allegedly removed from 22 your people's control and became non-native lands. 23 Do you recall hearing that evidence? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: Yeah. I'd like to ask you, based on
751 some of your experience and knowledge in your First 2 Nations community, a bit about that. 3 Now, you were a Band Councillor in your 4 community elected for a number of terms; is that right? 5 A: Yes, I was. 6 Q: Yeah. And I think four (4) terms or 7 something like that? 8 A: I was elected earlier on, and I was 9 just re-elected again a couple of years ago. But there 10 was a period I think around in 1978 or something where I 11 did sit for a couple of terms as well. 12 Q: And I understand it was during your 13 term as a Councillor that a possible agreement came 14 forward between the Federal -- Federal Government and 15 your First Nation relating to some compensation for some 16 of the Stoney Point lands; is that right? 17 A: Yes, there was. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And that involved some 19 payment for -- for those lands? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you support that agreement? 22 A: I didn't -- even though I sat on 23 Council, I didn't really support that agreement because I 24 didn't really know how -- or we didn't have really good, 25 clear direction on -- on where that would take us in the
761 future. 2 I know the -- the agreement was to be that 3 there was supposed to be back-pay that was supposedly 4 paid in 1942 then recalculated as years and interest 5 growing and that's how they arrived at that figure. 6 Q: I'd like to ask you, based on your 7 experience as a Councillor and your experience as a 8 traditional participant in -- in some of your various 9 ceremonies including your dancing and your drumming, 10 about your assessment of some of the conditions 11 surrounding the time of the Park lands when they were 12 surrendered back in 1928. And I would like to put to you 13 in a simplified form a number of excerpts from the Indian 14 Act that applied at that time. 15 Now, you were sitting here for the 16 testimony of Mr. Ovide Mercredi, former National Chief; 17 is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you heard him speak about the 20 Indian Act in his -- 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah. And I 23 would like to distribute some copies of that, Mr. 24 Commissioner. I've circulated them before and given 25 notice to Counsel.
771 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 2 send one up? I'm not sure if I have one. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 10 Q: First of all, Sam, I've put before 11 you some -- a few excerpts from the 1927 Indian Act which 12 was enforced from 1927 to 1951, approximately a quarter 13 century. 14 You've talked about some of your 15 traditional dancing and it's importance to you and I 16 would like to refer you to Section 140 of the Act at that 17 point. Do you have that? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And I think it's uncontroversial and 20 not -- not in any way a -- a technical legal 21 interpretation or comment that well know over the decades 22 that this Section basically prohibited a lot of Indian 23 dancing. Let me just read the -- the underlined parts to 24 you which say quote: 25 "Every Indian who engages in
781 celebrating any Indian festival dance 2 or other ceremony of which the giving 3 away or paying or giving back of money, 4 goods or articles of any sort, is 5 guilty of an offence and is liable to 6 imprisonment for a term not less than 7 two (2) months." 8 Do you see how that appears in that 9 Section? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: Now it mentions festivals where 12 there's giving away of -- of articles. Does the -- the 13 idea of giving away articles mean anything to you in -- 14 in connection to festivals or feasts? 15 A: Yes, it does. We do have ceremonies 16 that are -- are specifically for that and I'll go back to 17 the first one we had for Dudley in which we -- we 18 acknowledge all the people we could remember at that time 19 that helped us. And -- and when we were going through 20 that -- that first year of mourning and what we did what 21 they refer to as a giveaway. 22 And we tried to -- to show our thanks to 23 the people, my family and myself, by giving them 24 something small whether it was a set of cups or -- or it 25 was a hat, or just something like that. Just something
791 that would give them some type of -- we could give them 2 some type of appreciation for -- for what they did for us 3 over that -- that first year of mourning. 4 So, that -- that would into that -- they 5 claim the giveaways. And giveaways are quite common even 6 at the pow-wows and every place you attain their goal 7 anymore. 8 Q: So, based on what you say, it would 9 appear that in the old days the feast you had for Dudley 10 at which there was a giveaway probably would have 11 contravened this Section and you might have been liable 12 for imprisonment. Did -- were you aware of that? 13 A: I heard some -- I used to hear some 14 of it before but I never really -- I've never really seen 15 this until now and that's what it looks like, if we were 16 to do that in this period of time that we most certainly 17 would have been in jail for -- for doing that and -- 18 because we've always believed that -- that when they 19 pass, it's not --it's a celebration of life and that's 20 why we do that type of stuff, is we -- we give for 21 their... 22 Q: Following up on that, turn the page 23 if you would, to Section 154 of that 1927 Indian Act, and 24 that says in the parts I've underlined, quote: 25 ˘If any Indian is convicted of any
801 crime punishable by imprisonment, the 2 costs incurred in procuring such 3 conviction may be paid out of an 4 annuity or interest coming to the 5 Band.÷ 6 So, that looks like if there's a 7 conviction including if somebody who's convicted or 8 having an illegal Indian dance, the costs of it are 9 charged to the Band. 10 Do you see that? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: What do you think of that? 13 A: I think that they would -- if one was 14 to break the law, they would -- they would charge 15 everybody, they would punish everybody by having them 16 take it out of their monies as a whole, and paying the 17 fines to whatever extent they may be. 18 Q: Can you tell me, as a -- someone who 19 -- whose ancestors lived on the lands that were allegedly 20 surrendered in 1928 and as someone who's participated a 21 great deal in some aboriginal ceremonies, and as a former 22 political leader in your community, whether this kind of 23 prohibition would have any effect on how a community 24 would see a proposal to surrender land? 25 A: I would -- I guess I would look at
811 that as a way of -- of our people not maybe -- not really 2 having a choice in this. They're giving -- they're given 3 the information, but not really having the say to -- to 4 whether or not the land is -- is being sold or not. 5 I don't think it gives them much choice. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I'd like to ask you a number of 11 questions related to the way the Indian Act in 1927 dealt 12 with First Nation community leaders, and if you could 13 turn to Section 177 of that excerpt. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: It refers to a -- a Council and 18 that's the kind of -- that's a Band Council, that's what 19 you sat on yourself, as an elected leader; is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, 177 in that Act says: 22 ˘The Council shall meet at such place 23 on the reserve and at such times as the 24 Agent for the reserve appoints.÷ 25 And then the next section, 178, says:
821 ˘At such meeting of the Council, the 2 Agent for the reserve shall preside, 3 control and regulate all matters of 4 procedure and form, report all bylaws 5 and other Acts and proceedings of the 6 Council to the Superintendent General 7 and address the Council and explain and 8 advise the members thereof upon their 9 powers and duties.÷ 10 Now, that seems to describe the role the 11 Indian Agent at the time had in the meetings of the First 12 Nation Council. 13 Now, as a Councillor, how would you feel 14 if an Indian Agent was sitting in one of your meetings 15 doing those things? 16 A: Well, I don't see where the Band 17 Council had any -- any powers at all. The Indian Agent 18 here has all the powers and -- and to tell them when -- 19 what they can do, when they can do it and how they can do 20 it. 21 It says it that -- they explain to them 22 their powers and duties and what are them, if the Indian 23 Agent controls all of that? So, they really didn't have 24 any. 25 Q: And can you tell me, as a modern day
831 Band Councillor, how that makes you think about the 2 process in 1927 when a surrender allegedly occurred under 3 this Indian Act of the lands that your great-grandfather 4 was living on and the lands that Dudley later died for? 5 A: Now, would this -- give me an idea on 6 how -- how much power that -- that Indian agent did have 7 at the time in -- in -- in surrenders of them lands, what 8 we known as the Ipperwash Provincial Park, because to me 9 it looks like whether or not they didn't want to 10 surrender it, the Indian Agent had that power to -- to go 11 ahead and -- and agree to any surrenders that -- that may 12 come forth. 13 Q: Can you refer, then, to Section 141 14 of that same excerpt of the 1927 surrender or Indian Act, 15 rather. And that Section 141 says: 16 "Every person who receives from any 17 Indian, any payment for the prosecution 18 of any claim which the Tribe or Band of 19 Indians has for the recovery of any 20 claim or money for the benefit of the 21 said Tribe or Band, shall be guilty of 22 an offence." 23 Now, this section, I think, is pretty much 24 universally recognized as making it difficult or 25 impossible for bands to hire lawyers to defend their land
841 rights at that time. Can you tell me, as a modern-day 2 band Councillor, how you view the 1928 surrender when, at 3 that time, it seemed pretty much prohibited for First 4 Nations people to hire lawyers? 5 A: It basically left them defenceless, 6 because they weren't really in control. The Indian Agent 7 was in control. They had lawyers that would help them 8 and our people just had to sit back and -- and watch what 9 was going on. 10 Q: If you could turn to the other page, 11 Section 138, the Indian Act at that point says: 12 "Every Agent who knowingly and falsely 13 informs any person applying to him to 14 purchase any land that the same has 15 already been purchased or who refuses 16 to permit the person so applying to 17 purchase the same according to existing 18 regulations, shall be liable, 19 therefore, to the person so applying." 20 Now, that seems to suggest that a person 21 who wants to buy Indian land can sue the Indian agent if 22 the Indian agent declines or refuses to sell it to them 23 in accordance with the regulations. As a -- as a -- as a 24 band Councillor, what -- what does that leave you 25 thinking with respect to a surrender such as the 1928
851 surrender if the Indian agent is potentially liable to be 2 sued by the person who wants to buy the land? 3 A: That would just tell me that -- that 4 if the Indian Agent, himself, did -- did not want to -- 5 to be put in jail, that he would do everything in his 6 power to make sure he could get that sale of land moved 7 through and that -- that would be for his own protection 8 so that he wouldn't end up in jail, again, leaving our 9 people sitting on the side watching what was going on. 10 Q: I've asked a number of witnesses, I 11 believe prior in this Inquiry, Sam, and I'll ask you as 12 well, what -- what would your thoughts be if the result 13 of the shooting of Dudley George was that the Provincial 14 Government ended up saying to your community that with 15 respect to the Ipperwash parklands, You folks do some 16 healing, we'll keep the land? 17 What would you think of that? 18 A: I don't think it would work. I think 19 the healing that needs to be done amongst our people, of 20 both communities, before that can -- can start to take 21 place that they -- they need to -- to look at what is 22 hurting our people. And if you don't go back and find 23 the source that is making a person hurt, then you can 24 never heal it. 25 Our people have been hurting since these
861 lands had been taken. I think it would look at the only 2 way healing can -- can possibly start amongst our people 3 is to have the lands returned to them. And that would be 4 the whole section. 5 All the lands have to come back and I 6 think at that time there may be a healing process that 7 starts amongst the people. And then because the land 8 itself also has to heal -- the land itself is probably 9 hurting right now from -- from the activities that have 10 taken place on there. 11 The land was taken for conflict, conflict 12 reasons. It was taken by conflict, used for conflict and 13 I'm talking about the wars. And people were trained 14 there to -- to go and do that and that conflict is still 15 very much alive there. 16 That's the part where I talk about the 17 healing has to take place in order for -- for the 18 peoples. But as long as that land is in other people's 19 names, that healing won't take place and you can't heal 20 that conflict. So, it has to come back into the First 21 Nations people's hands. I'm talking about the whole 22 section of land there. 23 The Park, the part that's known as the 24 Base, that whole square that you see on that map, that's 25 the part I'm talking about. And it has to do that and I
871 think the people at that point can start a process of 2 maybe trying to -- to heal themselves and look at each 3 other and look at what the land needs also to be -- to be 4 fixed back up. 5 Q: And when you -- finally when you -- 6 when you look at down the road and Dudley is no longer 7 part of your family, what do you hope Dudley will be 8 remembered for since he can't be with you anymore? 9 A: Well first of all Dudley will always 10 be part of my family. He'll always be in my heart and in 11 my -- in my mind. He will never leave there. I hope 12 that in the future my brother will -- will be remembered 13 for what he stood up for and why he stood up for it. 14 He stood up for the rights of our people. 15 He paid the price for standing up for them rights. And 16 this is why I say in my -- my objectives, I -- I don't 17 want my brother ever ever forgotten for what he'd done. 18 He paid that price and I don't think he 19 deserves to be forgotten. He will -- he will always be 20 remembered and -- and that's the way I'd like to see it. 21 And listen to the people talk about it is that yes, he 22 did stand up for First Nations people's rights and -- but 23 he paid that price. 24 Q: Thanks, Sam. No further questions, 25 Commissioner.
881 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. Does anybody wish to cross-examine Mr. Sam 3 George? Please indicate. 4 Ms. Tuck-Jackson and Mr. Roland. Ms. 5 Tuck-Jackson, how long do you think you might be? 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Will be two (2) 7 to three (3) minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) to 9 three (3) minutes. 10 And Mr. Roland...? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: It'll be thirty (30) 12 minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe thirty 14 (30) minutes? That's do it then. 15 Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 afternoon. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 23 A: Good afternoon. 24 Q: It seems silly at this point for me 25 to introduce myself to you but for the purposes of the
891 record, I'm Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm going to ask you 2 some very few questions on behalf of the OPP. 3 If we could turn, sir, to the letter from 4 them Commissioner O'Grady. It's been marked as Exhibit 5 P-336 in these proceedings. And what I wanted to 6 clarify, sir, was how it was that you came to receive 7 this letter? I understand, sir, it was hand delivered to 8 you. 9 A: Yes. But I don't recall who -- who 10 brought it to me. I don't know whether it was the 11 investigating officer at the time that was doing the 12 investigation into this. It could have very well been. 13 Q: I'm going to refresh your memory. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, it 16 was then Chief Superintendent Gwen Boniface that 17 delivered the letter to you. 18 A: Okay. Well, that's helpful. I 19 couldn't remember or couldn't recall who brought it. 20 Q: Okay. Does that refresh your memory 21 in any way that it was -- it was Chief Superintendent 22 Boniface who attended at your home to deliver the letter? 23 A: I can't really recall it, but... 24 Q: In fairness to you, sir, it's been a 25 long time.
901 A: Yes, it has been. 2 Q: Okay. You also indicated, sir, that 3 Chief Superintendent Coles visited you in the company of 4 then-inspector Jim Potts. 5 A: Yes, he did. 6 Q: And, on that occasion, Chief 7 Superintendent Coles expressed his condolences on behalf 8 of the OPP to you for the loss of your brother Dudley? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, you told us, sir, that you 11 recall that that occurred prior to your brother's 12 funeral? 13 A: I thought it did. 14 Q: I anticipate we're going to hear that 15 actually that took place on September the 21st. Would 16 you have any reason to disagree? 17 A: No, I wouldn't. I just can't recall 18 the dates. 19 Q: I also understand, sir, I wanted to 20 follow up on some things you had to say about Jim Potts. 21 You mentioned that that meeting with Chief Superintendent 22 Coles was the first occasion that you'd had to meet 23 Inspector Potts? 24 A: That I can recall, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And, have you had occasion
911 since that time to meet with Mr. Potts? Mr. Potts is now 2 retired from the OPP. 3 A: Yes, I've had the occasion to sit 4 down and sit down with -- I've seen Jim probably at some 5 of the court cases we were -- were involved at and I've 6 always stopped and talked -- talked with him and -- and 7 shared a coffee with him or something, but, yeah, I've 8 had -- I've seen him on different occasions after that. 9 Q: And would it be fair to say, sir, 10 that in all of your dealings with Jim Potts, you have 11 found him to be a very respectful person? 12 A: To me he was, yes. 13 Q: A very reasonable person? 14 A: To me, yes. 15 Q: And a very kind person to you? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: I also understand, sir, there was an 18 occasion where you approached Jim Potts with a view to 19 securing some funding through the OPP to assist in 20 bringing in some Elders into the community to assist with 21 healing; do you recall that? 22 A: I'm trying to. I think -- I recall 23 it and I -- and I think I -- I think it was one (1) of 24 the times when Jim was around and asked, you know, if 25 there was anybody or anything that he could do to help
921 and I talked to him about an Elder and he said that they 2 could -- they could help bring him in and they did. 3 Q: And, would it be fair to say that the 4 OPP did -- did assist financially? 5 A: If that's where the funds come from, 6 yes. 7 Q: I anticipate, sir, that indeed, we're 8 going to hear that upwards of five thousand dollars 9 ($5,000) was -- was dedicated to help bring in those 10 Elders to help the community by the OPP. 11 A: I knew they put some money there. If 12 that's where -- but Jim did offer when we talked with 13 him, yes. 14 Q: Thank you. Sir, those are my 15 question, thank you for your time. 16 A: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 Mr. Roland...? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 24 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 25 A: Good afternoon.
931 Q: As you know, my name's Ian Roland and 2 I represent the Ontario Provincial Police Association. 3 There is, before you I believe, on the table, and article 4 from the Ottawa Citizen dated December 16, 1995, 5 entitled, Something to Die for. It's Document Number 6 2001748. I'd ask you to have a look at that. 7 Have you had an occasion to read this 8 article? 9 A: No, I haven't. 10 Q: You haven't seen it before? 11 A: Not that I can recall. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Mr. 13 Commissioner, I'm going to ask the Witness a good deal 14 about the contents of this article, because it appears to 15 be an article written, you'll see, in December '95 and 16 from the content of it, it appears that there were 17 interviews given by Mr. Sam George and some of his 18 siblings for the purpose of this article. 19 It may be -- it's a long article, it's 20 about five (5) pages. It may be that the Witness should 21 read the article first and given that it's quarter to 22 1:00, it might be useful to allow him to do that and we 23 could come back after lunch and I could ask him some 24 questions about it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That doesn't
941 sound like a bad idea. I mean, normally we wouldn't 2 break this early when we start at 10:30, but otherwise 3 we'd sit here for ten (10) or fifteen (15) minutes or 4 more -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- while he 7 read the article, so I think that's a good suggestion, 8 Mr. Roland. 9 Is that all right, Mr. George? We'll 10 break now for lunch and you can take the time to read the 11 article? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. We'll 15 break now for lunch. Thank you. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 18 adjourned until 2:00 p.m. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 12:46 p.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed. Please be seated. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
951 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: Thank you. Mr. George, when we broke 4 for lunch we agreed that you'd have a look at the article 5 that I'd referred you to before lunch that's published in 6 the Ottawa Citizen December 16, 1995, titled, Something 7 to Die For. It appears to be written by an Ottawa 8 Citizen staff writer named Jack Aubry. 9 Have you had a chance to read this 10 article? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Perhaps we -- we should mark it as an 13 exhibit and I'm going to take the Witness through some 14 parts of it. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Can I 16 have the number? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-337, Your Honour. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-337. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-337: December 16, '95 Ottawa 21 Citizen article "Something To 22 Die For" document 2001748 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: Mr. George, as I understand it from
961 both your evidence and from the article, that Dudley was 2 born March 17, 1957 and we know -- and you've testified 3 you were born July 1, 1952, so you're about five (5) 4 years older than your brother Dudley? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yeah. And, he's the eighth of ten 7 (10) children. Who are the -- who are the younger two 8 (2) children? 9 A: That would be my sister Pam. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And there was David. 12 Q: And David? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And we do have now, an adopted 16 brother by the name of -- of Lavern. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: He goes by Raz. 19 Q: All right. He'd be -- he'd be, then, 20 the eleventh, would he? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And Dudley is described in this 25 article as -- well, first of all, before we get to it, do
971 you remember being interviewed by Mr. Aubry for the 2 article? It appears that you're quoted in it from time 3 to time as is your brother Pierre and your sister. Do 4 you recall being interviewed? 5 A: I don't recall being interviewed, but 6 I -- I was refreshing my memory as I -- as I went 7 through the article. 8 Q: Yes. All right. And, Dudley is 9 described as a -- as a young child as a hyper kid. Do 10 you remember him that way as a -- as a hyper kid? 11 A: Yes, him and my brother were pretty 12 active. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: Him and my younger were pretty active 15 together. 16 Q: Yes. And, the article indicates 17 that when Dudley was seven (7), which means you would 18 have been twelve (12), this was in 1964, that he started 19 sniffing gas and was once found unconscious lying beside 20 a car with an open gas tank. 21 Do you remember that incident? 22 A: I think it was a one (1) time thing 23 that had happened. 24 Q: I see, but you were twelve (12). You 25 remember that as a --
981 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- as a family event, I take it? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And then the article goes on 5 to say that -- that your mother was an alcoholic. And I 6 know that in an earlier proceeding, you'd indicated that 7 she died at age forty-two (42) from physical -- for 8 physical reasons you think related to alcohol. 9 Do you recall looking back that she had 10 difficulty handling alcohol? 11 A: Yes, she did. 12 Q: All right. And the article says that 13 -- and I'm not sure whether it's referring to you or 14 Pierre recall drinking beer in the home when he was only 15 twelve (12) and he says this was the same for Dudley. 16 Do you remember that? 17 A: It wouldn't have been me. 18 Q: It wasn't you? Do you remember 19 drinking beer when -- in the home when you -- when Dudley 20 or Pierre were twelve (12) years old? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: All right. All right. When did you 23 leave the family home? How -- how old were you when you 24 left? 25 A: I left the family home probably when
991 I was about seventeen (17). 2 Q: Okay. That would have been about 3 1969? 4 A: Yeah. Maybe it would have been a 5 little before that. 6 Q: All right. And so you were living I 7 take it with the family when it moved from Sarnia to 8 Kettle Point in 1966? 9 A: Yes, I would. 10 Q: And you were part of the family home 11 when your grandmother's house burned down nine (9) days 12 later? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Or burned I should say. You've told 15 us I think it didn't burn down but it was seriously 16 damaged? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that you and your other siblings 19 were -- were required to live with aunts and uncles? 20 A: Yes, we were. 21 Q: And I take it that was pretty 22 disruptive to the family, was it? 23 A: It was pretty disruptive. 24 Q: Yeah. And then about the time you 25 left or maybe a little after in 1969 your elder sister
1001 Karen died in a car crash? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: Dudley would have been about twelve 4 (12) and I take it that was pretty upsetting to Dudley 5 and you and the other family members? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: It was really a tragic occurrence for 8 all of you? 9 A: I would say that, yes. 10 Q: And then it was shortly after that I 11 gather the house burned again? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Now, the article describes the 14 family, all of the children and -- and parents living in 15 one room and a kitchen with no running water. 16 Were you still living there at that time 17 or had you left? 18 A: No, I was still there. 19 Q: You were? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I take it that was pretty hard on 22 everybody. 23 A: Yes, it was. It wasn't a very large 24 room. 25 Q: Yeah.
1011 A: And we decided that we weren't going 2 to be all separated again and we'd make things do. 3 Q: Yeah. And then I gather the next 4 year, in 1970, your mother bought a house in Forest? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you would then be about eighteen 7 (18). Did you move to Forest with your mother? 8 A: For a short period of time. 9 Q: All right. And I gather Dudley lived 10 with your mother in Forest as did the other children? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And then the next year 13 unfortunately your mother died; that was in 1971? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And Dudley was then fourteen (14). 16 Were you still living at home at that stage? 17 A: No. I was down at the old homestead. 18 Q: All right. So, by that stage you've 19 moved out from your parent's home and I gather you didn't 20 return thereafter. You lived on your own thereafter? 21 A: Pretty much, yeah. 22 Q: And did Dudley continue to live in -- 23 in the home in Forest after your mother's death? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And he, I gather, went to school in
1021 Forest until he was seventeen (17). He completed grade 2 10 according to the article? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And in -- in September of 1974 the 5 Lambton Cartage Warehouse in Forest burned to the ground. 6 The article puts the damage at about two hundred thousand 7 ($200,000) and as a result of that, Dudley was charged 8 and plead guilty to arson? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, before that, before at least he 11 plead guilty to arson, we have on Exhibit 335 the 12 criminal record that he was convicted of bigamy which as 13 I understand it, it means you're married to two (2) women 14 at the same time. 15 You have no knowledge or recollection of 16 the fact that Dudley was married to two (2) women at the 17 same time? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: Not at all. You have no -- 20 A: No, I can't remember either wedding. 21 Q: All right. And so I take it this 22 surprises you, does it? 23 A: Yes it is. And we -- and I kind of 24 looked at that when I seen it myself. 25 Q: He was -- he was then living as I
1031 understand it in For -- in Forest and where were you 2 living at the time? 3 A: Kettle Point. 4 Q: Okay. And did you see one another 5 much? 6 A: On the occasion we would. 7 Q: Like once a year, twice a year? 8 A: Oh no, more than that. We didn't see 9 each other daily. We would see each other as we bumped 10 into each other weekly, because I'd come out and visit my 11 dad. 12 Q: Yeah, okay. And we know that your 13 brother Dudley was sentenced to twenty-one (21) months in 14 jail for arson in 1974. And the article indicates that 15 he was released from jail in 1976 and returned to live 16 with his family in Forest. 17 Do you -- did you visit him in jail? 18 A: No, I never went to visit him. 19 Q: No. But you -- you were aware that 20 he was in -- he was in jail or prison that period of 21 time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then in -- in 1976, it looks like 24 December '76 he was convicted of assault causing bodily 25 harm in Court in Sarnia.
1041 Were you aware of that conviction? 2 A: No, I wasn't. 3 Q: So, you don't know anything about 4 that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. And he was sentenced to 7 thirty (30) days in jail. Did you know that he'd spent 8 some time in jail in 1976? 9 A: I would know when he was in jail, but 10 I've at sometimes wouldn't know why he was in jail. 11 Q: I see. And did you ask him why? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No. All right. And then we'll -- we 14 -- if we go to 1977, he was jailed for five (5) months 15 for break and enter and theft. 16 And did you know about that? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you know that he was in jail at 19 that time? 20 A: I knew he was in jail but, again, I 21 didn't know what for. 22 Q: Okay. And then we see in 1978 he had 23 three (3) convictions, numbered 1 to 3. You'll see 24 January '78 and then in February '78, just below that 25 another one, and if we total those months up, we get ten
1051 (10) months consecutive jail term. 2 Did you know about the fact that he -- in 3 early '78 again, was sentenced to what appears to be a 4 total of ten (10) months in jail? 5 A: Yes, I knew he was in jail. 6 Q: Yeah. And did you visit him in jail? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No. And, again, did you know why he 9 was in jail at the time? 10 A: No, I didn't. 11 Q: No. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, the article indicates that your 16 brother, who was the closest brother, he was younger I 17 gather, than Dudley, named David, committed suicide in 18 October 1980, and I gather that was hard on everybody, 19 and especially on Dudley? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Dudley was quite close to David, 22 I understand? 23 A: He was. 24 Q: And the article says that his -- he 25 was having a hard -- Dudley appeared to having a hard
1061 time coping with the loss of David and would disappear 2 for periods of time as a result. 3 Do you recall that? 4 A: Yes, I do. 5 Q: Yeah. I take it those were difficult 6 times for all of you, and particularly for Dudley? 7 A: Yes, it was. It was very difficult 8 for all of us. 9 Q: Yeah. And then in -- the next 10 tragedy was in 1986. I gather your father died? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And -- of pancreatic cancer? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And it's described in the article 15 that that was really hard on Dudley, that he became a 16 transient after your father's death and -- and would show 17 up unannounced for meals and sometimes for a short stay, 18 and he often had to be asked to leave, because he wore 19 out his welcome. 20 Do you remember that period of time? 21 A: Yeah, I remember him showing up, but 22 I don't ever remember asking him to leave. 23 Q: I see. Did he -- did he show up on 24 your doorstep from time to time? 25 A: He would show up time to time. Drop
1071 and visit and -- 2 Q: Yeah. All right. 3 A: -- tease my children and -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- away he'd go. 6 Q: And did you see him much in this 7 period of time, in the '80's? 8 A: I would see him from time to time, 9 yeah. 10 Q: And would that be more than once or 11 twice a year? 12 A: Yeah, I'd -- 13 Q: How often did you see him? 14 A: -- probably the longest stretch, if 15 he wasn't in jail it would be about -- I'd see him 16 monthly or weekly. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I would see him around town. 19 Q: And during this period of time, Mr. 20 George, I understand from your evidence that you were 21 employed at Kettle Point, that you began -- in '85, you 22 began employment as an Education Councillor at Kettle 23 Point, and '86 you became a Youth Employment Councillor, 24 again at Kettle and Stony Point and then in '92 a youth 25 worker at -- at Children and Family Services.
1081 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did -- during this period of 3 time, in the '80's and early '90's, did you participate 4 in the sweat lodge kind of ceremonies you've told us 5 about this morning? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: All right. And did you -- as you've 8 said this morning, did you have other people participate 9 with you in those sweat lodge ceremonies? 10 A: I would go to them. 11 Q: You would? 12 A: I would go to them at someone else's 13 home; that's -- 14 Q: I see. 15 A: -- that's what I'd do in that time. 16 Q: And did you use it as a kind of 17 therapy or counselling or assistance, kind of service, to 18 others as you described this morning? 19 A: No, I was -- I was involved in 20 learning a lot about my -- I was going through school at 21 the same, going through my social service workers 22 diploma, plus I was taking traditional counselling with 23 my Elders and they would teach me how to -- to work with 24 that. 25 Q: All right, and during the time from -
1091 - from 1985 when you became an Education Counsellor and 2 through to 1993, when you were a youth worker at Children 3 and Family services, all at Kettle Point, in any of that 4 period of time did Dudley come to you and ask for 5 counselling or assistance from you? 6 A: No, he'd come and visit me as a 7 brother. 8 Q: But, did he ever come -- 9 A: But, he never come to me to ask me 10 for any help of any sort. 11 Q: He didn't? And did you offer any 12 help to him? 13 A: No, I never. If people come to me 14 and ask for help, I'd help them. I don't run to them and 15 ask them if they want me help them. 16 Q: I see. And, we've heard evidence 17 that Dudley drank alcohol frequently and excessively. 18 Did you understand that period of time that he was an 19 alcoholic or consumed alcohol to excess? 20 A: I knew he -- 21 OBJ MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, 22 I'd like to object to the question as it -- as it was 23 phrased and I wonder if My Friend, if he -- if he is 24 relying on evidence, could state a little more 25 specifically.
1101 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: All right. Well, let me just ask 5 instead of leading you. Did you recognize in the period 6 of time that Dudley was using alcohol or had a problem 7 with alcohol in the -- in the '80's -- the latter part of 8 the '80's and through the '90's? 9 A: I knew he drank. 10 Q: Yeah. And did you offer him any 11 assistance for that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you direct him to any others to 14 assist him? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No, okay. And, I gather you were 17 aware as well that from time to time he consumed 18 marijuana? 19 A: I wouldn't know that. 20 Q: Well, you -- you did know at least on 21 one (1) occasion he consumed it, I think, in your 22 presence, didn't he? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1111 A: I -- I can't recall. 2 Q: You don't recall that? 3 A: No. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. I'm -- I'm going to read 8 to you from the transcript of your Examination for 9 Discovery in the Civil Proceeding. It's from December 10 12, 2001, page 70 -- sorry, page -- page 79 beginning at 11 Question 511: 12 "Question: Did Dudley have difficulty 13 with drugs? In other words, was he a 14 frequent drug user or a drug abuser?" 15 Your answer: 16 "I think he tried them every now and 17 then as far as to my knowledge anyway." 18 Now, stopping there, do you remember being 19 asked that question and giving that answer? 20 A: Well, if that's the answer I gave, 21 I was under oath at the time, too. 22 Q: Okay. Next question: 23 "All right, and your knowledge is made 24 up of what? How did you acquire this 25 knowledge of him trying drugs every
1121 once in a while?" 2 Answer: Just with the occasion that 3 I've seen him, he would tell me 4 something other than that. 5 Question: What would he tell you; 6 that he had experimented with a 7 particular drug? 8 Answer: Smoked a joint or something 9 like that. 10 Question: Like, that he was smoking a 11 joint when he came to see you? 12 No, he smoked a joint." 13 He -- he had smoked a joint. So, I stand 14 corrected. He didn't -- he didn't do it in your 15 presence, that your answer seemed to indicate that he 16 told you he'd smoked a joint. 17 A: You'd asked me if I've seen him smoke 18 it? 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: And I said that I didn't recall, but 21 it says there that he told me that he did try it, so... 22 Q: Okay. And, did you offer him any 23 counselling for that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No. Did he ask for any?
1131 A: No. 2 Q: Now, when -- when Dudley moved into 3 the Ipperwash range in his trailer in May 1993, I gather 4 you didn't visit him much there? 5 A: No, I didn't. 6 Q: In fact, I think you only -- you said 7 in the earlier proceedings that you'd only twice gone to 8 -- to visit him during the time that he occupied the 9 range. 10 A: Something like that. 11 Q: And that he also only visited you 12 very occasionally while he lived on the range at Stoney 13 Point, that he didn't visit you often, either, did he? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No. So, you didn't really see him 16 much in the years between May '93 and September '95? 17 A: No. Not a whole lot. 18 Q: He did come to see you when -- at 19 your home in August '95 when you'd broken your leg? 20 A: Yes, he did. 21 Q: And he stayed for a few minutes? 22 A: Yeah. Yes. 23 Q: Now, can you -- can you tell us, Mr. 24 George, was -- was Dudley right handed or left handed? 25 A: He was right handed.
1141 Q: He was right handed. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And did he participate at any sweat 4 lodges with you in the period 1993 to '95? 5 A: Not with me he didn't. 6 Q: All right. You were asked this 7 morning by Mr. Klippenstein about apologies from the OPP 8 or from the -- and the Province I think the other was. 9 And I want to ask you, did you attend the 10 hearing involving Ken Deane that occurred in September 11 2001 in London at which time he was being disciplined for 12 having been convicted of criminal negligence causing the 13 death of your brother Dudley? Did you attend that 14 hearing in London? 15 A: No, I couldn't that day. 16 Q: You couldn't attend? It went over a 17 couple of days. Did you not attend any of them? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And did you -- did you learn or read 20 the newspaper or were you told about the statement of 21 apology that Ken Deane gave at that? 22 A: I heard about it. I think I heard or 23 read it in the paper. 24 Q: Let me read it to you and see if this 25 refreshes your memory. This, for the purpose of the
1151 record, this in Document 6000367. It's the Judgement of 2 Deputy Chief Loyall Cann, C-A-N-N of January 18, '02 and 3 it quotes from the evidence given by Ken Deane at the 4 Hearing on September 19, 2001. And it reads this way: 5 "This is..." 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Got the page 10 number there? 11 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's at page 15. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 15? 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND. 15 Q: And it reads: 16 "This is a statement of apology 17 regarding the incident at Ipperwash on 18 September 6th, 1995. [This is Ken Deane 19 speaking]. 20 I accept the finding of the Court as I 21 must 22 that I was criminally responsible for 23 the death of Dudley George. I 24 profoundly regret this tragic incident 25 that has caused so much pain and
1161 anguish for Mr. George family, friends 2 and his community. 3 I sincerely apologize to the family and 4 friends of Dudley George and to his 5 community for causing the terrible loss 6 that they have been forced to endure." 7 And does that refresh your memory at all? 8 A: That sounds like the statement I read 9 out of the paper. 10 Q: And I take it you'd agree that 11 appears to be a complete apology doesn't it? 12 A: It appears to be a statement. I 13 wasn't there to accept apology or neither was -- no 14 members of my family weren't either. 15 Q: I see. But he -- he -- you 16 acknowledged, did you not, Mr. George, that in a public 17 setting reported broadly that Mr. Deane appears to have 18 apologized to you and your family. 19 A: He apologized to somebody, but he 20 didn't apologize to us. We -- we had to read it in the 21 paper. I mean if I'm going to make an apology, I'll come 22 to you face to face and say what I'm going to say to you. 23 I won't send you a letter. 24 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, 25 out of fairness to the -- to the Witness, if My Friend is
1171 going to refer to an apology, he should, to complete the 2 picture in my submission, include the statement from the 3 -- from the -- from the ruling that Mr. Deane said he 4 continued to believe that he was justified in discharging 5 his firearm -- firearm on that night and that belief 6 remains today. 7 So, if it's supposed to be an apology to - 8 - to make the question fair, My Friend, should say that 9 Mr. Deane apparently continued to maintain at the same 10 time that he believed his discharge of the firearm was 11 justified. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND. 14 Q: So, is it -- is it then, Mr. George, 15 that you don't treat this as an apology because Mr. Deane 16 didn't say it to you, didn't come to your home or say it 17 to you face to face; is this why you don't accept his 18 apology? 19 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Mr. 20 Commissioner, I don't believe My Friend appears to have 21 listened to my objection. 22 My Friend is suggesting there was an 23 apology and there was an apology with saying I still 24 believed I was right in shooting your brother, so that 25 should be the complete question.
1181 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 2 to read that part in or is it enough that Mr. 3 Klippenstein -- 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, Mr. Klipp -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- 6 paraphrased it? 7 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Klippenstein has 8 paraphrased it, but I'm -- Mr. George, I take it, says 9 that his problem -- he testifies his problem with it was 10 that it wasn't given directly to him. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Commissioner, I 12 -- Mr. -- My Friend has not put the question to Mr. 13 George in an entirely accurate way; that is in my 14 submission. It's not fair to say Mr. George said this 15 when the question wasn't put to him and the question 16 being: Mr. Deane apologized, but he still believed he 17 was right in shooting your brother? 18 And maybe if My Friend wants to put that 19 question to him, we can see what Mr. George says. 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: That wasn't it, but I 21 read the apology. Mr. -- Mr. George said that the 22 apology wasn't acceptable to him because it wasn't 23 delivered to him. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: That's what he said.
1191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then Mr. 2 Klippenstein -- 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- pointed 5 out that there was -- 6 MR. IAN ROLAND: I understand. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- part that 8 you hadn't read and so if you put the question now, you 9 should put the whole thing there. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 12 Q: Mr. George -- okay, I think this is 13 what Mr. Klippenstein and the Commissioner seems to be 14 inviting me to -- to do, is that -- is to ask you why it 15 is you have a difficulty with accepting Mr. Deane's 16 apology? 17 A: Because I don't feel it was sincere 18 and from his heart. 19 Q: All right. And why is that? 20 A: Because it wasn't given to us 21 personally. It was given to the newspapers, then that's 22 how we found out. No one even phoned and said, do you 23 this has happened? When you think about it, we just read 24 it in the paper the next morning. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are my
1201 questions. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 3 Mr. Roland. 4 Where are we now? Do you have some 5 questions, Mr. Klippenstein, or were your questions all 6 asked in your -- 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN Just one (1) 8 question. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 14 Roland...? 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry to interrupt. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 17 fine. 18 19 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN 20 Q: Mr. George, My Friend for the Police 21 Association took you through some reports of some aspects 22 of your brother Dudley's life that included a glue 23 sniffing incident, having fire hit your family -- family 24 home, that Dudley did some drinking, had some criminal 25 record and so forth.
1211 Now, we've heard evidence as well that as 2 a background to that, your father and Dudley's father and 3 his family and his community was entirely dispossessed 4 from your ancestral homes and forcibly moved and removed 5 before your father and his family moved around several 6 times. 7 Do you think there's any connection 8 between those two (2) things, the dispossession and -- 9 and some of Dudley's actions? 10 A: There could be some of it; that could 11 be some of the -- of what was going on. Of course, we 12 cant -- we cant go into Dudley and -- and figure out just 13 exactly what was happening with his inside -- inside of 14 him. 15 I've looked at all the evidence that -- 16 that we've heard from Dudley, and about Dudley, and we 17 looked at -- we were aware that he would drink and so 18 forth and I've never claimed in all my times that I've 19 been seeking the truth as to what happened to him, that - 20 - that Dudley was an angel. 21 But, I can guarantee you one thing right 22 now, that he is now. 23 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, 24 Mr. George. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
1221 Thank you, Mr. George. 2 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. 3 Millar? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, no, I 5 don't. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I wish to thank you 8 again, Mr. George. 9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Millar, just before I - 10 - I step down, I would like to take an opportunity to -- 11 to thank a few people for -- I guess my family, for 12 standing by me, my friends, my legal team, to all the 13 legal counsel in here for their help to try and get at 14 the truth as to what happened that night. 15 And I'd also like to say thank you to the 16 protesters, the ones that were there that stood up that 17 night, for their courage and their bravery, and also to 18 the Oneida Peacekeepers for giving up so much of their 19 time to help our communities in the protection of that 20 land over the period they were there and to their Chiefs 21 for allowing them to down. With that I'd like to say 22 thank you to everybody. Miijwetch. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 24 Mr. George. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
1231 Mr. George. Thank you. 2 3 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 6 we proceed to the next -- next witness, I would like to 7 mark as the next exhibit, it would be Exhibit -- 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-338. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 338, the official 10 medical Certificate of Death of Mr. Dudley George. 11 There's one (1) in the -- in the database, but this is a 12 clearer copy. And why don't we -- while Mr. George is -- 13 I believe you can leave any time, Mr. George. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-338: Official medical certificate 16 of "Dudley" George's death 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: While Mr. 19 George is leaving. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I might advise 21 everyone -- I've advised all the Counsel, but I advise 22 the Public and the members of the Fifth Estate who are 23 here that we're going to have a change in the order of 24 witnesses that I had announced before. 25 The new order, in broad terms, will be as
1241 follows: After we're finished with the Emergency and 2 Medical Services personnel, we will proceed to the senior 3 OPP commissioned officers as we had originally planned. 4 The first will be now-Deputy Commission Carson, now- 5 Superintendent Fox, then Chief Superintendent Coles, 6 who's retired and Commissioner O'Grady, who's retired. 7 Whether we have one (1) other senior police officer I 8 haven't determined -- it has not been determined yet. 9 We will then move to selected 10 interministerial meeting participants at the September 11 5th and 6th meetings including Ms. Julie Jai (phonetic), 12 Ms. Hutton, Mr. Sturdy, Mr. Fox -- Superintendent Fox 13 will have already testified; he was at those meetings as 14 well. 15 Then were the -- hopefully the individuals 16 who made notes of the meetings, and those notes are in 17 the database, and Ms. Currie, the person who spoke to Mr. 18 Watts. We will then call Mr. -- Senior Civil Servants 19 such as Ms. Elaine Todres (phonetic) who was the Deputy 20 Minister of the Ministry of the Solicitor General, Mr. 21 Larry Taman (phonetic), who was Deputy Attorney General; 22 Mr. Kobayashi, who we've heard about. 23 And then I think as well, although he's on 24 the political side, Mr. King and then the politicians 25 including Mr. Beaubien, Mr. Harnick, Mr. Hodgson, Mr.
1251 Runciman, and Mr. Harris. And then after we're -- that 2 group, we'll revert back to other police officers, other 3 civil servants, Federal and provincial community members 4 and at some point, Stan Thompson will be back. I just 5 wanted to let everybody know that. 6 Now, I've had some questions. We're still 7 working the -- for my Friends who are in the room who 8 have asked, we're still working on the schedule and as 9 soon as we can work it out a little better, we'll let 10 everybody know. 11 And, Mr. Worme is going to deal with the 12 next witness, sir. And the next group of witnesses, as I 13 said, are emergency and medical personnel. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Mr. Millar. 16 Yes, Mr. Worme? 17 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I 18 wonder, just before we get to the next witness who will 19 be Superintendent Harding, I wonder if we might just take 20 a few moments, I'll need to -- to get set up. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we -- 22 MR. DONALD WORME: Perhaps if we could 23 take a break for five (5) minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- take a 25 break? We'll take a very short break then; a five (5)
1261 minute break. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for five (5) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 2:35 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 2:46 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 11 we move on, there's one (1) small housekeeping matter I 12 wanted to just deal with. The Municipality of Lambton 13 Shores has assisted us with a number of maps that Ms. -- 14 that are going to be referred to this week. 15 I've been trying to send them out via e- 16 mail and it -- I think there are six (6) maps. Even 17 sending the first one out, it's not working. I think 18 they're too large for most of the e-mail systems. 19 I've gotten so many messages -- I sent one 20 out at the break and I've gotten so many messages back 21 that's it's undeliverable that my e-mail's gone down as 22 well. So I've tried but we're not going to get them out 23 to everybody. 24 MR. DONALD WORME: The Commission calls 25 as the next witness, Walter Peter Harding.
1271 And Mr. Registrar, the Witness will swear 2 on his oath. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Harding, 4 just come right up. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 6 Harding. 7 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 8 THE REGISTRAR: You prefer to swear on 9 the bible. Please state your name in full. 10 THE WITNESS: Walter Peter Holmes 11 Harding. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 13 14 WALTER PETER HOLMES HARDING, Sworn 15 16 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME. 17 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Harding. 18 A: Good afternoon, Mr. Worme. 19 Q: Mr. Harding, just by way of your 20 personal history and background. You were born and 21 raised in London, Ontario? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And you were educated in London. 24 A: That's true. 25 Q: That is your elementary and secondary
1281 school. And I understand you went to college in 2 Kitchener? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: St. Jerome's College as a matter of 5 fact. 6 A: That's right, yes. 7 Q: What did you study when you were 8 there, sir? 9 A: Business administration. 10 Q: And once you had completed your 11 studies at St. Jerome's College, I understand then that 12 you went out and took on your first job in the work 13 force. 14 A: I did. I was with the first 15 professional service, ambulance service in the City of 16 London was Bellingham (phonetic) Ambulance, yes. 17 Q: And from there you went on indeed to 18 take on a position with another ambulance operation. 19 A: Yes. Thames Valley Ambulance and I 20 managed it for about two (2) years. 21 Q: And during the same time, sir, I 22 understand that you had taken on part-time positions at 23 St. Joseph's Hospital in London? 24 A: To further the educational end, yes. 25 Yes, sir.
1291 Q: And what education was that? 2 A: Well as -- as an OR technician 3 working in the operating rooms. 4 Q: Okay. And your functions as an OR 5 technician, what would those consist of, sir? 6 A: Looking after large operations. I 7 would look after the -- the nitro gasses. All the gasses 8 for the anaesthetics when they were having the large 9 operations. Looking at the -- at the assistant's copy 10 room, circulating in that room and then also in the 11 orthopaedic room being available for the application of 12 body splints, et cetera, breaking the tables, and so the 13 mechanical end of it. 14 Q: And part of all of this training in 15 the -- in the medical field I think in a generic sort of 16 way, that would be fair? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that was meant to assist you in 19 what became your career choice? 20 A: That's true, yes. 21 Q: And as I understand it, that you 22 commenced with your career with the London Fire 23 Department in 1960? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: I wonder if you could just tell us a
1301 bit about that, sir? How you started and the -- the 2 times that you would have served there and what 3 capacities, what your duties would have been? 4 A: In most professions you start at the 5 bottom and work up and I started as a 5th class 6 firefighter, to 4th to 3rd to 2nd to first class over a 7 period of that many years -- five (5) years. 8 At that time then you're eligible towards 9 -- work towards a part of the department that you would 10 like to see yourself in. That could be actual 11 firefighting, on a pump or an aerial ladder. 12 Mine was towards the heavy rescue because 13 the background on that would be medical besides 14 mechanical. 15 Q: All right. Just let me go back a 16 bit. You would have started initially as a probationary 17 employee -- 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: -- with the London Fire Service? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And I take it, as you were describing 22 this, that each year of service there would be a set of 23 examinations that you would be required to take and -- 24 and to pass? 25 A: Yes, you had to qualify for each one
1311 of the levels, yes. 2 Q: And once you received the designation 3 as a Level 1 firefighter, you then make a choice within 4 the service as to which area you wish to focus on; is 5 that fair? 6 A: You try to work towards that course. 7 Only when positions come open that you try to put 8 yourself in the best light and to be able to fulfil that 9 position when it's open. 10 Q: And in terms of the position, or the 11 area that you sub -- ultimately focussed upon, sir, in 12 your -- terms of your career, you've identified that as 13 heavy rescue? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And because that had some element of 16 a medical background requirement; is that right? 17 A: That's right. That's at the time, I 18 was fortunate to get because that was one of the 19 backgrounds to it. They were still doing medical runs, 20 medical calls, mostly heart, but there was various calls, 21 yes. 22 Q: Now, just so I'm clear on this, sir, 23 when you say they were doing ˘medical runs÷ back then, I 24 take it that there's a distinction, certainly from now, 25 is there?
1321 A: Quite a distinction. At that time, 2 there was no provincial service as such. There was 3 still -- 4 Q: Provincial ambulance service. 5 A: Provincial ambulance service -- 6 Q: And I'm sorry for interrupting. 7 A: -- at that time, yes. It was mostly 8 private enterprise throughout the various areas, whether 9 it be a gas station or whether it be some other services. 10 A lot of funeral directors were running 11 the services et cetera. In our location -- in the City 12 of London there were, actually, three (3) services and 13 the City also took on responsibility of responding to 14 trauma, too, through their rescue. 15 Q: Okay. And you have spent, as I 16 understand sir, some fifteen (15) -- or you spent some 17 fifteen (15) years in the heavy rescue department of the 18 London fire service? 19 A: I -- yes, I rode as a First Class 20 firefighter and then I was appointed as an officer on the 21 -- on the heavy rescue, also. 22 Q: All right. Now is there any 23 particular reason, other than of course as you've told 24 us, because of your medical background and training that 25 you would have acquired over the years previous, that you
1331 would have went into heavy rescue, as opposed to some of 2 the other areas that you've described for us? 3 A: I don't know. It's -- it -- really, 4 it's -- it's the knowledge you carry with you, but also 5 there is a tremendous satisfaction in being able to help, 6 specifically when everyone else is standing there, 7 waiting; the police department, the ambulance service and 8 that and they have something that they can't dealt with 9 and your unit with the heavy equipment is about the only 10 one that can -- is going to resolve the problem, and 11 sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. 12 Q: And when you say "bad", sir, what -- 13 what do you mean by that? 14 A: Well, it's very difficult looking 15 into someone's eyes and you're trapped, and realizing 16 that as soon as you release him from that, he may die 17 from the depressional pressure. 18 Q: And I take it that during your 19 fifteen (15) years of service in this particular area of 20 the fire department, that you would have had occasion to 21 experience some of those more traumatic events? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1341 Q: okay. You began to -- to ascend up 2 through the ranks, if I can put it that way, in terms of 3 the fire department? 4 A: Yes, I was promoted at times. 5 Q: And one of those promotions was 6 partly when you had been assigned to implement the first 7 911 service that had been set up outside of the province 8 of Quebec? 9 A: The first 911 system that was brought 10 into Ontario was tested in London, Ontario and it was a 11 three (3) phase situation. 12 But I was promoted to what they call a -- 13 assistant communications officer at -- with -- assigned 14 to the London City police to implement the system, 15 because it was a united system, police and fire. 16 Q: Okay. You'd integrated the 17 communications systems -- 18 A: That's correct -- 19 Q: -- for the fire department, the 20 police department -- 21 A: Yes. And I was assigned to the 22 police department as liaison officer with responsibility 23 as assistant communications officer. 24 Q: And you received your captaincy in 25 that position?
1351 A: I did, yes. 2 Q: You were -- you were the captain for 3 the London fire department some three (3) years; is that 4 correct, sir? 5 A: Well, as a captain longer than that. 6 But, I was three (3) years in Communications. 7 Q: I see. 8 A: And then I went back out onto the 9 street. After that three (3) year period was up -- a 10 test period, the implementation period was up and then 11 went back out on the rescue unit as a rescue officer -- 12 Captain of the rescue. 13 Q: And following that, sir, you became 14 Platoon Chief? 15 A: A number of years after that, a 16 Platoon Chief, yes. 17 Q: And beyond that? 18 A: No, I became a District Chief first 19 and then a Platoon Chief and then I retired as Deputy 20 Chief of the City of London Fire Service. 21 Q: And that retirement -- your 22 retirement as Deputy Chief of the London Fire Service in 23 1998? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Now, throughout this
1361 period of time as well, sir, you had been involved with 2 the St. John's Ambulance in a volunteer capacity? 3 A: That is correct, yes. 4 Q: And you would have commenced as a 5 volunteer with the St. John's Ambulance in approximately 6 1969; is that fair? 7 A: In 1969 I commenced as an instructor 8 and then I -- then was incorporated into the, what they 9 called Community Service end, which is a uniformed end, 10 which is St. John's Ambulance brigade yes, in about three 11 (3) years after that. So, it was about '70 -- around '70 12 that I became involved with the -- the volunteer end. 13 Q: And how was it that you became 14 involved with St. John's Ambulance, sir? 15 A: As I mentioned to you before, the 16 Ontario government was looking at bringing a system into 17 play that would cover ambulances throughout the Province 18 of Ontario. Because I was a rescue officer for the City 19 of London, they took various people and asked them to 20 come to St. Thomas, for the St. Thomas Elgin Medical 21 Association was given the task to come up with a course 22 to train the first ambulance officers. 23 And what happened was, that they asked us 24 to critique that course, you know, they'd go through it 25 and critique it to see if that would be a reasonable
1371 course that would be, I'd say, those would learn at and 2 those would be able to take advantage of it. 3 We did do that and how I became involved 4 in teaching was very simply, one (1) of our guest 5 lecturers, one (1) of the lecturers they brought in was a 6 Coroner for Middlesex -- for Elgin County, Dr. Green at 7 the time, and he arrived one (1) day and slammed his 8 briefcase on the table. 9 We thought we were all in for a -- kind of 10 a rough ride, but the first thing he said to them, and he 11 says, Most of you are from the medical field or -- or in 12 the service end. He said, Would you do me a favour? He 13 said, Would you please go out and train people on how to 14 respond to accidents? He said, Get into the training 15 area. 16 He said, I just came from an autopsy of a 17 young girl who was thrown from a motorbike on Number 3 18 Highway at Roseland Dance Hall area. They came around 19 the corner, hit the back of a car and came up over the 20 bike and hit the back windshield of the car, rolled onto 21 the ground and died of a broken nose. 22 He said, Gentlemen, young people don't die 23 of broken noses. And he said, I imagine none of you 24 could offer the reason why and -- with a broken nose, of 25 course you haemorrhage if you're unconscious -- you drown
1381 in your own blood if you're not rolled onto your side for 2 it to drain. And that's exactly what happened. 3 Twenty-five (25) people standing around 4 and no one did everything. Everyone said, Stand back and 5 don't -- don't touch her until the ambulance comes. 6 That's not the way to -- that not should have happened. 7 And he said, Would you get out and train 8 people to respond and do the right thing when they come 9 across an accident? That's basically how I got involved 10 in going in to St. John and asking them if they would -- 11 if they needed any instructors. 12 Q: So, in terms of your involvement, it 13 was -- or commencement of your involvement, it was as 14 simple as walking into the local St. John's Ambulance 15 offices? 16 A: True. Well, as simple as walking in, 17 asking and then taking their instructor -- their courses, 18 their instructors' courses and going from that point, 19 yes. 20 Q: And you have spent, sir, some thirty- 21 two (32) years as a volunteer? 22 A: I spent three (3) years as an 23 instructor, which is a -- is a semi-honorarium type of 24 situation and then the last twenty-nine (29) years as a - 25 - strictly a volunteer, yes.
1391 Q: Sir, in the promotional material, 2 which is -- one (1) of which is located at Tab 19 of the 3 document in front of you, it talks a bit about the 4 historical background and I realize and I note from that 5 promotional material that the history of St. John's 6 ambulance is traced back to 600 AD. 7 And I'm hoping you might be able to give 8 us a historical perspective of that, not necessarily 9 going into detail from that period of time, but in order 10 to assist in understanding a bit more about this 11 organization. 12 A: That is correct. It -- It does trace 13 it's history back to 600 A.D. when the Benedictine Order 14 was given responsibility of looking after their pilgrims 15 travelling the holy lands at the time by Pope Gregory -- 16 at the time. The Benedictine Order then were there 17 looking -- doing their work. 18 They had set up what they call hospecs 19 (phonetic) throughout the countryside and looking after 20 the pilgrims at that time. St. John became really 21 chartered or under the -- was granted a charter by the 22 papacy at that time, about the ten hundreds (1000) during 23 the crusades. 24 When the crusaders arrived in Jerusalem 25 and they were given the -- the people looking after them
1401 were really known as the first firefighters. And this 2 was when the crusaders ran into the Turks using boiling 3 oil being poured over the parapets of their 4 fortifications and no one to look them and the 5 Benedictine Order did. 6 They went in and took these people and 7 dealt with them. And that was their first -- sort of the 8 first hospital type of medical person. In the ten 9 hundreds (1000) then when they applied to -- to start a 10 special order because many of the knights and many of the 11 soldiers said this is a good thing, we should become part 12 of it. 13 And they did grant them and that's why 14 it's called the Order of St. John. It's an order of 15 chivalry. And it -- our headquarters was in Acres or 16 (phonetic) in Jerusalem which our hospital is still there 17 today, Acres, Rhodes and then Malta. Our headquarter's 18 in Malta for three hundred (300) years and only gave it 19 up when Napoleon made his walk across Europe. 20 And the various langues use went back to 21 their own countries very simply. The English langue went 22 back to England; was under the Church of England. The 23 German langue, the Prussian langue went back to Germany; 24 was under the Johan Etre (phonetic). And the Italian and 25 the predominantly RC countries, they went back to Rome
1411 and are now called the Maltese. 2 They're all the same family. They all 3 have the same cross and it's just on different 4 backgrounds. The Order of St. John is on a black 5 background, a white cross. It's worn by the Lieutenant 6 Governor, Governor General and the Queen. And there are 7 heads of our Order as that goes -- as it goes through the 8 system. 9 Q: All right. And I take it that this 10 organization then is established in various locations and 11 indeed there is an office in London and that is where you 12 work out of? 13 A: Yes. It's the priory Chapter for the 14 English langue is in England and it comes to Canada, the 15 Canadian priory. There's priory's in Australia, priory's 16 in New Zealand, priory's all through the world. And the 17 Canadian priory is in head office in Ottawa and then 18 provincially Toronto and then the London branch is in 19 London, yes. 20 Q: And you have talked, sir, that at 21 least when you were an instructor there was a part 22 honorarium and I take it there is some remuneration for 23 the services for certain aspects of St. John's Ambulance 24 service -- 25 A: You might -- you might think of St.
1421 John as an umbrella -- as an umbrella and three (3) hands 2 hanging onto that umbrella. One hand is the Order of St. 3 John, the second hand is the educational end which does 4 the training and the third hand is the brigade which is 5 the community service unit which is the unformed end. 6 Yes, the Order is -- is a order of 7 chivalry. It is all volunteer; specifically volunteer. 8 The -- the St. John's Brigade is volunteer, there is no 9 one paid to the highest level of St. John in the 10 organization to wear the uniform. 11 Q: Let me just interrupt you there if I 12 may, sir, before you go onto the third, and that would be 13 the order that you are superintendent of? 14 A: The brigade, yes. 15 Q: Pardon me, the brigade. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And I -- I'm sorry I 18 interrupted you. 19 A: And the third part would be the -- 20 the St. John Ambulance Association. St. John Ambulance 21 Association's a teaching body. It's the educational body 22 whereby they charge a certain number of dollars for 23 training and any money they make goes back into the 24 street work if they can. 25 St. John Ambulance receives no funding
1431 from the Provincial Government, Federal Government or the 2 municipalities in London. And we are totally separate 3 from any government body whatsoever. 4 Q: And given the service that is 5 provided, and I'll ask you a bit about that in a moment, 6 how is it that the organization is able to sustain itself 7 financially? 8 A: It sustains itself financially 9 through the work that they do. When they attend event, 10 they ask for consideration for donation at the end. They 11 have a number of fundraisers, such as three (3) on three 12 (3) basketball, they have some corporate sponsors that 13 will -- that will be very -- are very generous in -- in 14 helping sponsor the work of St. John. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: There's one (1) other point, too, 17 that I'm not sure -- you didn't ask, but one (1) other 18 way we do is that the -- St. John Ambulance brigade in 19 London is a special unit. It's probably the only unit in 20 Canada that has the amount of equipment we do, and we do 21 run on a letter of understanding with CN/CP for all the 22 major derailments between Toronto and Windsor -- 23 Q: Okay, and we'll come to some of those 24 things. 25 A: Okay.
1441 Q: I'll ask you about the various 2 services that you provide, but if I can just ask you at 3 this point in time about the street operations of which 4 you are the core superintendent. 5 I -- as I understand it, there are a 6 number of divisions that you oversee, that you are in 7 charge of? 8 A: Yes, there are seven (7) -- in 9 London, Middlesex County, there are seven (7) divisions. 10 Each one of the divisions are specialist in -- in the 11 category they have been assigned. 12 The Number 1 Division is a unit that is -- 13 responds to public duties. In other words, you see them 14 at the football games, at the hockey arenas, at all that 15 type of situation; that's what they... 16 Then there is what they call London -- 1-C 17 is a youth division. There's two (2) youth divisions. 18 There's also Number 28 Division; it's a 19 technical unit. A technical unit looks after all the 20 radios, our vehicles, light repairs, defibrillators, all 21 that type of equipment. It looks after the maintenance 22 and upkeep of those. 23 Then there is the bike patrol unit. The 24 bike patrol works with parks and recreation system and 25 patrols all through the parkways in the -- in London
1451 itself. 2 Then there is the therapy dog unit that 3 works with twenty-seven (27) institutions for the 4 visiting -- not visiting, but going into the hospitals 5 for Alzheimer's and various situations whereby therapy is 6 needed to -- to -- for a patient. 7 And then there's our SAR unit, search and 8 rescue unit, in another -- that's a seven (7) now isn't 9 it? 10 Q: That is seven (7), sir. When you say 11 the public duty unit, which you've described as Number 1 12 and you've assigned various numbers to this, is there any 13 relevance with respect to the numbers that you'd 14 indicated or assigned to each of these units? 15 A: As a unit comes online, and is 16 chartered, in Toronto, and in national headquarters, they 17 are assigned a number and it's the numbers as they go up 18 through the system. 19 Q: So, I take it the public duty unit 20 would have been the first unit -- 21 A: Unit in Canada, was in London, 22 Ontario, yes, from England. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And that was in 1909. 25 Q: The -- the public duty unit, what
1461 exactly would -- would they be doing, when you say they 2 were at various public functions, football games and so 3 on? 4 A: Well, John Labatt centre. They could 5 be at a walkathon today, it could be at a football game 6 tomorrow, they could be at a picnic coming up at summer. 7 They could -- it's any duty that people may gather at and 8 they are asked to attend for standby medical coverage. 9 Q: Okay. And that's what I was getting 10 at, sir, is it just a St. John's ambulance, at the public 11 duty unit that you have a -- a record or some indication 12 of public events coming up and you attend at them, or is 13 it a matter that you would -- 14 A: They -- 15 Q: -- have to be requested to attend -- 16 A: -- they have to be asked by -- in 17 writing -- written -- usually you call, but then we ask 18 for a letter of confirmation from them to attend, yes. 19 Q: All right. And are there any 20 functions, for example, in this area in Lambton County or 21 -- or hereabouts that you would have been attending at or 22 your public duty unit would have been in attendance at? 23 A: There are special duties during the 24 winter time. They used to have a winter carnival at -- 25 at Ipperwash -- or at -- at Grand Bend.
1471 They used to have -- there's been a number 2 up through here. Their have fairs, we used to cover, 3 sometimes, not always. 4 The Unit from Sarnia used to come in 5 sometimes for this area, specifically. Unless it was a 6 specific request for something specialized, we usually 7 stayed in -- within Middlesex County. 8 Q: Okay. What about any dealings with 9 respect to aboriginal people and -- 10 A: We do very much, pow-wows, we work 11 with a N'amerind on a number of situations. We must work 12 with the aboriginal people at least thirty (30) or forty 13 (40) duties a -- a year, of various things. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Fundraisers and what have you that 16 they do have, usually through N'amerind, though. 17 Q: All right, and so for those of us 18 that are unaware, what is namarind. 19 A: N'amerind is the -- is the native 20 community, council in London and they are open to helping 21 the -- anyone who is in the City and trying to do and 22 trying to make cope with what has happened. 23 Q: All right. So, wherever you 24 requested to come in and provide these public duties, 25 that is where St. John's --
1481 A: Yeah, we could end up -- 2 Q: -- ambulance -- 3 A: -- at Long Woods (phonetic) to 4 something happening there, we could be at the Muncie, we 5 could be at -- even to the community area opposite Muncie 6 there, too, and -- 7 Q: Oneida? 8 A: Oneida, yes. 9 Q: All right. All right. Sir, beyond 10 the services that you provide, I understand that there is 11 an element known as the Emergency Service Support team. 12 A: Yes, the Emergency Service Support 13 team is a unit made up of the seven (7) divisions. If 14 someone feels they had the time and -- to be able to 15 devote to this, because what it requires is carrying a 16 pager and responding on fifty-five (55) minute call, at 17 any hour of the day or night, and to respond to some 18 specific need. 19 That need could be anywhere from -- well, 20 I wont -- unless, do you want to -- 21 Q: Yes, please tell us what sort of 22 needs might arise that one would obliged to -- 23 A: Any community disaster. For 24 instance, the London fire. They run a canteen service 25 for London fire. As soon as they reach the third alarm,
1491 they will then despatch a canteen unit to that alarm. 2 The firefighters today are in encapsulated suits. 3 They lose so much body fluid that they 4 have to have that electrolyte replacement and they have a 5 canteen to be able to do that, and they get them away 6 from doughnuts and that. They go to granola bars and 7 that type of thing. 8 They give them breaks, change their mask, 9 get them back in. That way, they can keep on the 10 fireline and they don't go down for two (2) or three (3) 11 after. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And so it's a community service that 14 St. John provides to London fire service and the twenty- 15 one (21) other departments throughout Middlesex County. 16 Q: All right. You provide light 17 equipment? 18 A: Our heavy light generator units, yes. 19 We have 8,000 watt diesel generators on trailers. We 20 supply those to various activities. 21 The reconstruction unit for City of London 22 fire service -- for the City of London police department 23 requires them on an ongoing basis for things that may 24 happen on the street that they want to open up for the 25 next morning.
1501 If it's a side street, then they can bring 2 their crews in and have it investigated after -- during 3 the regular hours -- during regular business hours. 4 So, that is one point. London Fire 5 service will bring them in for large conflagrations 6 whereby it could be fire, it could be some kind of leaks 7 whereby they could have to light up the area. 8 These are thirty-five (35) foot towers 9 that raise up and maybe you've seen them along the 401 10 Highways when they're doing road construction. That's 11 much what they're like and they will light up the area 12 and make it much easier for them, rather than tie up a 13 piece of important fire equipment. 14 They -- the trailer can just sit there and 15 operate. 16 Q: You have communication support 17 capacity as well? 18 A: Yes, we do. We have a low profile 19 tractor trailer unit -- as a fifth wheel. It carries 20 CN/CP, London fire, London township fire service, twenty- 21 one (21) departments in London township, our own system, 22 the Ministry of Health CAC system in it. 23 It carries -- 24 Q: The CAC system; let me just interrupt 25 you. You've used an acronym there.
1511 A: Oh, that's the provincial -- 2 provincial ambulance system. It's called CAC, Central 3 Communications System for the Provincial Government. 4 Q: Okay. So, this fifth wheel and we'll 5 see some pictures that you were good enough to provide, 6 in a bit here, Superintendent, but it does have -- it 7 does have linkages to these other communications systems, 8 for example to -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- CN and CP? 11 A: Yes, they do. Because of -- it's put 12 into -- into play when a required communications -- see, 13 this type of emergency service support team was brought 14 into effect -- when you look at our training end, it 15 always says the Government's always told and has always 16 done -- has done studies on the fact that if you train 17 people in first aid, it lessens accidents within the 18 factories. 19 We take the other hand that, sure, and if 20 you have proper equipment on the street, proper lighting, 21 you feed people properly, at the disaster situations and 22 that, you also save the -- them going down, causing the 23 problems and causing accidents also. So, we take the 24 proactive on that and this equipment is designed to do 25 that.
1521 There is no better equipment than good 2 communications equipment and to have communication with 3 everybody involved. It is very important at large scenes 4 and we have been in quite a few large scenes. 5 Our first one, with the Ontario Provincial 6 Police was -- that I can account for -- was in 1984 at 7 Hardy Farms (phonetic), was the first time I was called 8 by OPP, and the last one was just a couple of weeks ago 9 at Lucan (phonetic) when we did this plane search. And 10 then just prior to that, the tractor protest at Ingersoll 11 was that they used some parts of our equipment. 12 Q: All right. And when you say, "They 13 used some parts of your equipment," I take it that it 14 isn't St. John's Ambulance personnel that are involved in 15 using this equipment onsite, you're simply responsible 16 for delivering and perhaps maintaining it? 17 A: It depends on what the situation is 18 and it depends on if we take it into -- and it's a 19 situation whereby they use it as a communication 20 situation, no. It's their communication system, all that 21 we do is support that -- that system while it's in play. 22 Q: And the communication system would 23 consist of what? 24 A: Of -- it would consist of phones, 25 modems, computers, it could be radios, high-
1531 frequency/low-frequency radios; that's what in our -- 2 that's what in ours. 3 For instance, if we went into one (1) 4 location and for instance, there was a -- in Komoka there 5 was a derailment in Komoka whereby the fire hall had to 6 be evacuated -- I'm sorry, in Kerwood, had to be 7 evacuated. We brought that unit in, set it in and they 8 set their pumps right beside it and they operated out of 9 that unit for three (3) days while they -- they dealt 10 with the leakage track side. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: And they worked out of that unit. 13 They had -- Bell Telephone dropped in five (5) lines; one 14 (1) was a modem line, one (1) was a fax line and three 15 (3) of them were phone lines. 16 Q: All right. Do you provide any of 17 these services to the Military? 18 A: If they asked. 19 Q: All right. Have they asked? 20 A: During the ice storm back -- I can't 21 remember the year it was now -- in London and we also 22 sent our units, five (5) of our units to Quebec and they 23 were there for five (5) weeks in Quebec in the Nouian 24 Richelieu (phonetic) area in the eastern townships. 25 Q: Outside of London you've provided
1541 these services? 2 A: Yes, we do. We do, on the request -- 3 it has to clear our Province and if it goes outside of 4 our Province, it has to clear our national headquarters. 5 Q: All right. Just before I move onto 6 the types of support that you provide, there are also 7 medical units within St. John Ambulance? 8 A: In London we have fifteen (15) 9 different types of units and five (5) of those are 10 medical units. The rest are -- are various lights, 11 generator units, power supply units, communications 12 equipment, canteen or rehabilitation units we call them. 13 Q: And what, sir, is the connection 14 between the medical units operated by St. John Ambulance 15 and those operated provincially? 16 A: None. 17 Q: There is no connection? 18 A: Only through this -- the -- there is 19 no connection whatsoever. They're not supported by them 20 and they -- we -- we do not go under their -- their 21 guidelines in any way, shape or form with exception that 22 if there is a disaster, there is protocol in place by the 23 Provincial Government to -- to utilize St. John as an 24 auxiliary unit if they -- if they have to. 25 Q: All right.
1551 A: And, in fact, just as recent as the - 2 -the lights -- loss of power in London, we sent units to 3 the CAC system there to help them with their air 4 circulation and that type of thing at the Community 5 Central Communications. 6 Q: And, sir, in -- in terms of a request 7 for assistance and support by a community group or an 8 organization, what is the guidelines? 9 A: First come, first serve. In other 10 words, if you ask, and the equipment's available, you 11 will receive the equipment no matter who you are unless 12 it's some illegal operation that should not happen. And 13 it's the first -- once our equipment is used up, then 14 that's pretty well it. We -- we can't service if we 15 don't have the equipment. 16 Q: And is there a fee for that? 17 A: There's no fee. Well, I should 18 qualify that only in this light, that if a promoter comes 19 into town, it promotes an activity. And even if it's for 20 a Rotary Club or a Lion's Club, if they hire a promoter 21 to do it, we've had problems that we cannot depend or ask 22 people in the community to support an operation whereby a 23 promoter walks away with most of the funds. 24 So, they are then levied a cost on the -- 25 on the equipment. But if the Rotary Club comes to us and
1561 the members provide the service, in other words, they're 2 putting on the activity, that is no cost to them 3 whatsoever. We only say to them, please remember at the 4 end, would you consider a donation for us because this is 5 what we live on. 6 Q: So, where an event has a commercial 7 aspect to it, then there may well be some fee attached to 8 it or -- 9 A: Promoted ac -- promoted ac -- yes, 10 an activity. 11 Q: You may have already spoken to this, 12 sir, but you had mentioned that there is as part of your 13 com. equipment, your communications equipment, linkages 14 to CN/CP? 15 A: Yes, we do, yeah. 16 Q: And you have provided community 17 support and equipment to incidents involving the 18 railways? 19 A: The railway between Windsor and 20 Toronto excluding Mississauga. In the last twelve (12) 21 years there's been nine (9) major derailments. Mostly 22 happening between Glencoe and Woodstock. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And in those major derailments we 25 will support them in three (3) manners. We'll send our
1571 canteen service, we will send our medical standby and 2 we'll send the communications unit and we'll send our 3 heavy light generators. 4 Q: And under Tab 20, sir, of the 5 materials in front of you, there is a document entitled, 6 St. John Ambulance, London, Middlesex Core Emergency 7 Services Support Team Protocol -- 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: -- do you see that? Is that the 10 protocol that you had referred to us earlier? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: Now, I -- I don't have copies of 13 those for My Friends. This book was supplied to me just 14 this morning by Superintendent Harding, but what I would 15 do, Mr. Commissioner, is perhaps simply have this marked 16 as the next exhibit and it will be available for Counsel 17 to look at. 18 I don't think that anything arises out of 19 it, but certainly they ought to be afforded an 20 opportunity to review this. I don't intend to refer to 21 it in any particular detail. It is simply information 22 that details the St. John's Ambulance services. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 24 What's the title of the -- 25 MR. DONALD WORME: The title is, St.
1581 John's Ambulance London, Middlesex Core Emergency 2 Services Support Team. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-339. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-339: St. John Ambulance London- 6 Middlesex Corps Emergency 7 Services Support Team Manual 8 of Services 9 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Commissioner, that 11 would be a book that's issued to all communication 12 centres, whether be police, fire, so that they can 13 reference the material that may be available to them if 14 they may need it. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME. 17 Q: Thank you, sir. And I was just going 18 to ask you to speak to that. And as you point out that 19 that is a document that essentially contains the menu of 20 the services that are available through St. John's 21 Ambulance? 22 A: That's correct, yes. 23 Q: All right. There is a letter of 24 understanding, sir, between St. John's Ambulance and the 25 Ontario Provincial Police is there?
1591 A: Yes and no. We do have a letter of 2 understanding in our search and rescue, our SAR Unit, has 3 a letter of understanding with the Ontario Provincial 4 Police and five (5) other police forces within this area 5 outside of Middlesex actually. It does take in a couple 6 of other police forces; that's only in the search and 7 rescue area. 8 Q: Right. And is there a protocol with 9 respect to the Ontario Provincial Police requesting 10 assistance from St. John's Ambulance? 11 A: We have -- it's -- it's always been 12 there. It's a -- it's a fact that we've always made 13 ourselves available to any police service. Given the 14 fact that the OSARVA they've had to have special letters 15 of understanding to deal with the search and rescue end 16 of it, because there's air search and rescue ground 17 search and rescue et cetera, and they have a special 18 requirement. 19 Our other areas have always been open to 20 anyone. And we have dropped off one of those folders to 21 each one of the police departments and made them aware 22 that they can ask for the equipment any time they want, 23 because it is equipment of the community. 24 It belongs to the community, owned by the 25 community and should be used in the service of the
1601 community, and that's what we're asking them to do. 2 Q: You've already described for us, sir, 3 the role of the fifth wheel, I think you've described it 4 as. It probably has a more formal name than that, does 5 it? 6 A: It's a communications -- 7 communications unit and we refer to it, our ownselves, 8 our own command unit but when it goes with anyone else 9 it's -- we refer to it as a communications unit, because 10 most other large agencies has their own command unit, but 11 they want that to further their -- their reach, as it 12 were. 13 Q: All right. And this would be used to 14 supplement whatever facilities other organizations may 15 have? 16 A: If you get into a very large 17 operation, usually it's a three (3) ringed operation. 18 You usually have about three (3) different commands and 19 this is in large centres and that. You'll have the fixed 20 command, usually a central location looking after the 21 whole picture. 22 Then you set the second command structure 23 down, looking after what may be coming into the local 24 area and then you have a third one advance, whereby you'd 25 have a -- what happening just at that specific location
1611 where all the ones, sort of, broaden out in our planning 2 at various stages. 3 Q: And this command unit would be used 4 where, typically? 5 A: Well, when you're working with 6 railway, they bring in their own large, command unit. 7 You're looking with -- so it's usually either the very 8 advanced area. Our unit usually goes to the very front 9 and the heavier commitment will go to the back to, in 10 other words, to the -- the larger units would take on a 11 greater role. 12 So, usually the -- the -- for instance, 13 the -- they call it CM Command 1, they would be stationed 14 -- say, for instance, there is a problem in or around 15 Komoka it would be probably stationed right in Comoca and 16 then up the track a little ways would be the command -- 17 our command unit, which would be onsite type of 18 operation. 19 Q: All right. I'm going to show you a 20 series of -- of photographs. I have these, Mr. 21 Commissioner, on disc and I have circulated a number of 22 these to other Counsel over the weekend, having received 23 them, I believe, on either late Friday or early Saturday 24 from Mr. Harding. 25 And perhaps what I can do is simply put
1621 those up on the screen. I would ask that the -- the CD 2 be marked as the next exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-340, your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-340. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-340: CD-Rom of 23 photographs of 7 St. John Ambulance vehicles. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: It's a series of twenty-three (23) 11 photographs. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I realize, sir, that you may have to 16 -- there is a handheld mic there on the table besides 17 you, Superintendent Harding, and these are a little bit 18 out of focus. As someone has quite correctly pointed 19 out, digital photography I don't think, was available 20 then. 21 But in any event, this is one of the St. 22 John's ambulance units and I regret that it is somewhat 23 out of focus, but that is the best that we could get this 24 picture. 25 A: That is a -- that is a medical unit.
1631 Q: Yes. 2 A: As you see is designated right up 3 here in the corner; it's a medic. And it carries the St. 4 John cresting and also the sponsor cresting. 5 It's a -- we do not buy any brand new 6 units. We can't afford to do that; we don't have that 7 capital with which to do that. 8 So, what we rely on is the -- at one time, 9 the Ontario government to help us out and which they did, 10 throughout Ontario, by providing us the opportunity to 11 purchase units at a reduced cost for service within the 12 community. 13 Since that has gone by the boards, and now 14 it's pretty well localized, we go to the County now and 15 if you notice, that these units are the very same design 16 as the -- now the County units, usually what's in now as 17 the -- and they carry almost the very same equipment now, 18 but that was not at the time of the incident that we're 19 referring to at the Ipperwash Inquiry -- 20 Q: Yes, and we'll come to that in a 21 moment. 22 A: This is now -- they carry 23 defibrillators, they carry -- and our fellows could be -- 24 they could be doctors, they could be nurses, they could 25 be -- now, RT's, they could be EMT's, they're all from
1641 all walks of life. 2 And if we know we're going into and we 3 have a specific service requirement, then we cater that 4 specific service requirement such as a JLC then where 5 there were a certain number of fellows on duty all the 6 times, for the defibrillators or certain number of this, 7 to be able to be able to use the various equipment that's 8 required, right. 9 Back in the time of -- of the Ipperwash, 10 no that was not the case. Nor -- although we could have 11 put crews on that could deal with major incidences but 12 that's not what we were there for. 13 Q: Okay. And we'll -- we'll come to 14 that, sir -- 15 A: -- that's a medical unit. Now that's 16 today's medical unit. 17 Q: This is 2005? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: This particular picture that is up 20 there which is the first picture on the -- on the twenty- 21 three (23) or so pictures that we have. You did indicate 22 and I think there may be a laser pointer there on the 23 witness table somewhere. I don't know if you that there, 24 sir. 25 A: Yes.
1651 Q: There is a marking just below the 2 emergency light on the top. 3 A: Right here. It's -- if it was clear 4 you would see it. It says, 'Medic' on the side of it and 5 that's on -- on either side of the unit. 6 Q: Now, you mentioned the distinction 7 between 2005 and 1995, that is a distinction with respect 8 to the material, was that marking on that particular 9 vehicle or a similar vehicle in 1995? 10 A: No, it was not. 11 Q: Perhaps you can describe this vehicle 12 for us, sir? 13 A: This is a service vehicle. We have a 14 tender unit that goes along on all major incidences that 15 would possibly carry -- it would carry diesel, gas. It 16 may not be carried in the same type of vehicle that we'd 17 carry food or anything like that. It has to be kept 18 totally separate. 19 And this unit would do that. It would 20 carry -- it's a tender vehicle. Back in at the time of 21 the Ipperwash it was a much smaller unit. Same design. 22 A window type van and but this -- knows here it's mobile 23 support unit, that's on all, and on the side there is no 24 medical department referring to -- the St. John 25 Ambulance. St. John Ambulance is our name.
1661 Q: And that -- that -- 2 A: There's no 's' on it by the way. 3 Q: -- we're looking at which is the 4 second photograph in this series, that you say is a -- a 5 support vehicle or a tender vehicle? 6 A: Yes. To support -- it would carry -- 7 carry equipment that we other than food or equipment that 8 would be used in servicing such as gas, oil, diesel, that 9 type of thing -- 10 Q: And aside from the name -- the name 11 of your organization, St. John's Ambulance, on the side 12 and the fact that it does have what appear to be 13 emergency lights fixed to the top of the vehicle, that is 14 not a medical vehicle? 15 A: No, it's not. The emergency lights 16 are for the safety of -- of the crews when they're placed 17 in situations that they may be working at an accident 18 scene or where other heavy equipment's moving around the 19 lights are used for warning, for safety. 20 And -- and then if the Government calls us 21 to respond and they give us a code, they want us to 22 respond at, and the lights or sirens can be used. It 23 does carry a siren. 24 Q: All right. The third photograph; 25 that would appear also -- it's Unit Number 103 which
1671 would appear also to be a medical unit. 2 A: Yes, it is. It's 'Medics' -- 3 'Medics' on the side of it, yes. 4 Q: Is that the same photograph that we 5 had just looked at earlier? 6 A: Yes, one zero three (103) is the same 7 one. It's just up closer that's all. 8 Q: All right. The fourth photograph 9 then, sir? 10 A: This is a SAR unit. This unit is 11 equipped with -- well at this time of year, just coming 12 out at this time of year, it has toboggans, et cetera, et 13 cetera on it. Push type -- military type toboggans, it 14 has climbing gear, it has rigging; it -- it's a special 15 search and rescue. 16 The fellow that run this unit are trained 17 in Barrie with the OPP; they take special courses, also 18 some of the London City Police. And this vehicle last 19 time was out was at the plane search here in Lukan just a 20 couple of weeks ago. And that was with the Ontario 21 Provincial Police. 22 Q: All right. The next photograph, sir? 23 A: And that is today's -- that's the 5th 24 wheel unit we're talking about today. Today they have, 25 they're carrying the county crest of London Middlesex
1681 County and the city crest of the City of London. It has 2 'Communications Unit' on there. It's pretty -- it's a 3 little hard to see, but it's quite evident. 4 On over the cab here you'll see it's has 5 'Mobile Support'. 6 Q: And you're pointing to the cab over 7 top of the tractor trailer unit? 8 A: Right. Right over top of the window 9 of the trailer unit on the cab unit. This is the trailer 10 unit here and this is the cab, right here. It's a small 11 cab. It's a Grumman unit, built by Grumman and it's -- 12 it's not a home made built thing, it's an actual... 13 Q: All right. And if we can just stay 14 with that for a moment. Unfortunately we cannot read the 15 words at the top of that -- of the unit, itself; what 16 does that say? 17 A: Across here, it's 'Mobile Support'. 18 'Mobile Support, across there. 19 Q: And the identification on the tractor 20 trailer unit itself next to the -- 21 A: It should be right down here; it's 22 four forty-four (444). 23 Q: Okay. And on the -- and on the fifth 24 wheel next to the -- what you've described as the City of 25 London crest, which is located at the --
1691 A: City of London -- 2 Q: -- top right hand corner? 3 A: That's right. That's with the -- the 4 deer and the bear? 5 Q: And immediately adjacent to that is - 6 - is some writing. What does that say? 7 A: You've got me, 'Communications Unit', 8 is down here, 'Communications,' and that, I believe is, 9 'Command Unit.' 10 Q: All right. And you've indicated I 11 believe, sir, that this photograph is circa or from 1995 12 -- pardon me, 2005? 13 A: That's to-date, yes. 14 Q: This would appear to be a photograph 15 depiction of the same item? 16 A: That is correct, yes. 17 Q: That is the Communications Unit, 18 together with the tractor trailer? 19 A: This is true; that's -- the trailer's 20 here and the cab is here. 21 Q: Now, we've heard something about a 22 communications unit being employed by the Ontario 23 Provincial Police in 1995 at the Ipperwash incident; what 24 relation is this unit to the one that was employed in 25 that...
1701 A: That's the very same unit. 2 Q: Okay. And does that unit -- is that 3 how the unit appeared in 1995? 4 A: With the exception of the two (2) 5 crests here. 'Communications' and 'Command' were not on 6 either side. 7 Q: So, the -- 8 A: Just the St. John Ambulance, St. John 9 around the -- and 'Support Unit' up there. The other 10 cresting was not on it. 11 Q: And when you say, "The other 12 cresting," for the purposes of our record, 13 Superintendent, the two (2) crests that you've identified 14 were not on that unit in 1995? 15 A: They were not on the unit in 1995. 16 Q: And the words, 'Communication Unit' 17 and 'Emergency Support' were not on the unit? 18 A: They were not on the unit. 19 Q: And, can you tell us when they were 20 added? 21 A: When we -- some time after we 22 received the unit back and it was basically reconstructed 23 and then we added that to the -- we added this too. 24 At the time, the unit was assigned to 25 Ipperwash, the request for the County and the City were
1711 still in -- in County Council and in City Council being 2 approved. We didn't have it at that time -- to use our 3 cresting, right. 4 Q: I see. And what about to use the 5 words, 'Communication Unit' or 'Emergency Support'? 6 A: That was sort of part-and-parcel of 7 the next application. 8 Q: And just so I'm clear, sir, the next 9 application would -- would mean what? 10 A: The placing of the crests and the 11 identification of the vehicle. 12 Q: All right. The next photograph would 13 appear to be the interior and perhaps I'll just get you 14 to describe that. 15 A: The interior, looking to the rear, 16 this door here -- behind this door, it's a sort of a 17 small alcove and it has a coffee machine; it also has a 18 washroom and it has -- on one (1) side and then this side 19 it has a sink and sort of a little coffee area. 20 As you come up the side here, there's a 21 telephone system in it. There's -- there's five (5) 22 positions, two (2) on this side and three (3) on this 23 side and the phones are the same as an office-type 24 situation, you can transfer calls back and forth. 25 Along the top -- along the top of here, is
1721 one (1), two (2), three (3), four (4), five (5), six (6), 2 seven (7) radios along the top there and there are, you 3 see coming down here and back, right here there's a mic - 4 - there's mics for each one of these radios that go up 5 underneath to the radio and that each one (1) of these 6 positions you could use one (1) or two (2) of these, 7 whichever radio should happen to be calling. 8 Q: And what is the significance of the 9 number of -- of radio units that are installed there? 10 A: The first unit is CN/CP, the second 11 unit is London Fire, the third and the fourth unit are 12 the County of Middlesex. And that unit can be switched 13 back and forth. 14 It's in the range that County of Middlesex 15 Fire -- there's six (6) frequencies for the ambulance 16 service for the County of Middlesex, are also on those -- 17 those two (2) -- two (2) radios, those two (2) 18 frequencies there and the last one down there is air -- 19 air -- we can monitor planes in the air. 20 Q: All right. And those phones can be 21 hooked up through Bell and -- 22 A: What happens, at the -- the rear -- 23 the other side there were -- Bell running a line and they 24 have three (3) lines for the phones, one (1) modem line 25 and one (1) fax line.
1731 Q: Okay. So, the modem would -- would 2 give you computer capacity and such? 3 A: That's correct. And that's in -- 4 you'll see in a minute, I would think, if it's on your 5 tape -- 6 Q: Perhaps we can turn, then, to the 7 next photograph? 8 A: Oh, just as you go up past there 9 again, you'll see the computer here sitting -- that's 10 what the computer was prior to its response to Ipperwash 11 and after the response to Ipperwash we use laptops now. 12 We don't use the big computer. 13 Q: Okay, so these last two (2) 14 photographs being the interior of Unit 444; am I 15 correct -- 16 A: That's correct -- 17 Q: -- so far? 18 A: -- yes. 19 Q: These were taken before September 20 1995? 21 A: That's correct, yes. 22 Q: All right. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1741 Q: The next photograph, I would suggest, 2 is -- appears to be the interior again, looking forward? 3 A: That's the interior of -- in other 4 words, if you turn completely around and look the other 5 way in the trailer, this is a small room. This is a 6 small room that's off the communications area. 7 This unit -- you'll notice there's seating 8 around, sort of in a semi-circle. On the far side 9 there's a fax line. There's another phone and then up 10 here is a -- although it can be used as a TV, but usually 11 it's used as a VCR for filming such as an accident. 12 We used to have a lot of times, if there's 13 a valve fitting or something, they had to go up and take 14 pictures, come back, and they would assess what they've 15 going to do to move a truck or upright a truck whatever 16 the case may be. 17 And once they decided what they're going 18 to do, then they would call and make arrangements with 19 chemical handling or whatever the situation would be. 20 But, this would be a room in which they 21 can conduct briefings and that -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- in that trailer. 24 Q: It's a bit of a conference room? 25 A: Yes.
1751 Q: And the dark, rectangular -- 2 A: Oh, here? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: If you look out through those crests, 5 that's the cab of the -- that's a window and that right 6 there is just a -- is a light; it's sort of a desk light. 7 See that there? 8 Q: The next photograph would appear to 9 the be computer that you had referred to earlier? 10 A: Yes, that's just outside. That -- 11 that room we were looking at, that's the door right here 12 to it and that's -- 13 Q: You're indicating -- 14 A: -- just outside. 15 Q: -- just off to the right side of the 16 photograph? 17 A: Yes, that's the door to that room 18 going in and this is just outside that room along that 19 wall there. And it's a computer and then there's a phone 20 set and on the wall there, you can plug in cell phones. 21 There's antennas on the unit and you can 22 plug in cell phones if you're in a bad area, and you can 23 kind of pick up. 24 Also, it gives you 12 Volts -- there's 25 also a 12 Volt system there, if you had some kind of a --
1761 that you had to use 12 Volt system on it, rather than one 2 hundred and ten (110). 3 Q: Okay. Well, let's just stay with 4 that for a moment. The 12 Volt and the 110 Volt systems, 5 those are operated how, sir? 6 A: There are two (2) generators. There 7 is a 7,000 Watt -- or a 1,000 Watt gas generator, and a 8 5,000 Watt gas generator mounted on the bottom of that 9 unit that operate independently, those two (2) units. 10 One's a backup to the second. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And they're governed right here. 13 These two (2) panels right here, one (1) is the 7,000 14 Watt unit, and then this unit here is the 5,000 Watt 15 Unit, and that's the control for those -- those units. 16 Q: And how do those units that is, the 17 generating units, how do they operate? 18 A: Towards the back of the -- the front 19 of the unit and under, there's a -- it carries its own 20 gas tanks. In other words, it doesn't work off the tanks 21 of the tendering the -- the tractor, okay? 22 It carries its own gas tanks and those 23 individually, they would work off the tank on the unit 24 itself. 25 Q: And when you say -- you'd mentioned
1771 earlier the tender unit, and we'd seen a depiction of 2 that in one of the photographs, you've indicated that 3 those tender units would carry gasolene and such and I 4 take it that that would be to service this vehicle as one 5 of the functions? 6 A: Yes, that -- that tender unit would 7 carry gas to refill this unit's tanks. Yes. The tractor 8 could be taken somewhere and filled at a gas station, but 9 this one probably once it's in play, couldn't probably be 10 moved. 11 Q: All right. So, there are no 12 independent batteries on this, such that if the 13 generators were to go out, then your electrical functions 14 would -- 15 A: There isn't -- 16 Q: -- would cease. 17 A: -- there is now. There -- at that 18 time, no, there was not. The only battery we have on it 19 was a battery mounted under the unit to start it. In 20 other words to start the actual unit. There was no 21 makeup for a drop of twenty (20) minutes or whatever the 22 case may be. No, there was no backup to that. 23 Q: And when you loaned out this 24 particular vehicle, did it come accompanied by the tender 25 vehicle?
1781 A: That was the agreement that I asked 2 for at the time that we loaned the unit out that we would 3 have to have two (2) things happen; we'd send a unit and 4 personnel to -- to maintain the -- this vehicle. 5 In other words, refuel it and then deal 6 with whatever had to be dealt with. 7 Q: All right. Let's move onto the next 8 picture. I've forgotten which -- which number this but-- 9 A: This is Unit 100. The number is 10 right there and it's a medical unit also. A little 11 different style; long nose, a Chev unit. And it's a 12 medical unit as of this date. 13 Q: As of 2005? 14 A: That's correct, yes. 15 Q: Just again so I understand. Were 16 your medic units in 1995, were they similarly lettered? 17 That is to say, did they have 'Medic' stamped right on 18 the vehicle itself? 19 A: No, they did not. 20 Q: All right. And what would 21 distinguish then a medic unit from a tender unit back in 22 1995 if -- if not for those specific designations? 23 A: The number system -- the number 24 system is a provincial numbering system. They can tell 25 provincially on the computer what that unit can do; not
1791 normally known to the public what that unit could do or 2 what that unit would be able to do. 3 Q: It's fair to say though that a lay 4 person not knowing those codes might not know the 5 function of a particular vehicle? 6 A: That's very true, yes. The one 7 hundred (100) system is medical units then it goes to the 8 two hundred (200) systems and some are people transport 9 units. In other words, there's a two hundred (200) 10 system; it's a stretcher transport unit but it's not 11 medical. It's an inter-hospital transport which is a 12 very low priority. 13 And then it goes into three hundreds 14 (300's) and four hundred's (400's). Seven hundred's 15 (700's) are trailers. So, the dispatcher if you're 16 talking -- we found that out in Mississauga and that's 17 where the first recognition was the numbering system on 18 the vehicles. It could tell us what that vehicle could 19 do. 20 Q: Okay. Thank you for that, sir. Now, 21 Superintendent Harding, in late August of '95 or early 22 September 1995, you had received a call from the Ontario 23 Provincial Police enquiring about the use of the mobile 24 command unit? 25 A: I did, yes.
1801 Q: And I wonder if you would tell us 2 about that. From whom the call was received and the 3 discussion if you can recall? 4 A: I'm not sure who the first call was 5 received from. But eventually I did have appointment and 6 arrangements were made to speak with John Carson at the 7 time which was -- I believe he was new in the area; 8 moving from Forest here in and assigned to regional. 9 Q: Okay. And what did he request of you 10 -- of your organization? 11 A: He heard about the various vehicles 12 we had. Actually he wanted to see what -- what they were 13 like and what they were. He asked if he could have a 14 look at the vehicles and to inspect them and see them. 15 Q: Did he attend to your facility in 16 London for that purpose? 17 A: Yes, he did. Yes, he did attend in 18 London. And he had a chance to be shown through all the 19 vehicles and what all the various things, 20 responsibilities for each one was. 21 Q: And do you recall the -- the time 22 when this might have occurred? 23 A: I did in -- when the -- at the very 24 first here of three (3) years ago. I can -- right off 25 the top of my head, I think it was about a week to a week
1811 and a half prior to us being called a second time. 2 Q: Perhaps if I can refer you to Tab 3 Number 11 in the Book of Documents before you, and for 4 the assistance of Counsel, that is Inquiry Document 100- 5 2290 at pages 1 and 2. 6 A: I have pages 1 and 6. 7 Q: If you could look -- 8 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 9 Q: If you could look at the bottom of 10 the first page which is a statement, anticipated evidence 11 of Peter Harding, first of all, can you identify that 12 that is a statement that you would have provided? 13 A: It seems so, yes. 14 Q: And, if I can draw your attention, 15 then, just to the bottom of the page in terms of your 16 response: 17 "During the week of August the 28th we 18 were approached prior to a request for 19 the equipment." 20 Does that assist, sir, in terms of 21 refreshing your memory as to the time when this request, 22 pardon me, would have come? 23 A: Yes, I think that would be it, 24 because I have much better recollection at that time, 25 yes.
1821 Q: And, do you recall, sir, what it is 2 that Mr. Carson had requested of you aside from an 3 opportunity to inspect these vehicles? 4 A: He was looking for support and -- and 5 if they were going to have to provide facility in Forest 6 for the Ontario Provincial Police operations. 7 Q: And, did he mention to you that it 8 was an operation relative to Ipperwash at all? 9 A: He said there was -- that there quite 10 possibly and he wasn't sure whether there was going to be 11 something happening or not happening. He said that he 12 was just trying to prepare himself in case that they may 13 require support and he wanted to look at the various 14 pieces of equipment that we had to be able to help them 15 in that regard. 16 Q: Did he make any requests of you with 17 respect to whether or not what he was asking you about 18 ought to be kept confidential or not? 19 A: We're always cautioned by both 20 police, fire and CN employees that we're not to speak to 21 anyone about anything that we deal with because there's 22 only one (1) person can speak; you get all kinds of 23 different things. Only one (1) person can speak at any 24 type of operation and that's the Public Relations Officer 25 and that's common no matter were you go. And, yes, we're
1831 always cautioned each time. I would -- I would be very 2 surprised if we weren't by a police officer. 3 Q: And, did Inspector Carson, as he then 4 was, advise you ultimately what equipment that was being 5 requested and the purposes to which such equipment would 6 be put? 7 A: He thought that he would like 8 something that would help him in the communications area 9 to provide better communications and -- and he favoured 10 the Unit 444. 11 In doing so, I explained to him that that 12 unit, plus a tender unit would have to be dispatched at 13 that time if -- if it was required and if he required it. 14 That was the agreement that he agreed to. 15 Q: All right. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Worme, 20 we're going to go through to five o'clock, perhaps this 21 would be a good point to take a short five (5) or ten 22 (10) minute break now -- 23 MR. DONALD WORME: I was just about to 24 ask you that, sir. Thank you kindly. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
1841 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for ten (10) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 3:55 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 4:07 p.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: Superintendent Harding, just before 12 the break you had confirmed for us that Inspector Carson 13 had advised you that it was his wish to use your -- or to 14 use the St. John's Ambulance communication unit? 15 A: If it would be required, yes. 16 Q: And, in fact, it was delivered at 17 some point in time. Do you recall when that was? 18 A: I'd have to refer to the notes, 19 delivered to -- to Ipperwash? 20 Q: Yeah, perhaps I can refer you to Tab 21 8. It's Inquiry Document 1005177 and it is the 22 anticipated evidence of Bob Muir (phonetic) and if you go 23 to page 2 of that in the middle of the page, there is an 24 indication that at 10:45 hours, at St. John's Ambulance 25 Service, that you were interviewed.
1851 You were then the platoon chief with the 2 London fire department, but also the Superintendent for 3 the St. John's Ambulance Corps, for the -- for London, 4 Middlesex. 5 That you've already confirmed for us, sir, 6 in your testimony? 7 A: Yes, that's correct. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And if you look just at the bottom of 12 that paragraph, in the last full sentence, and this is in 13 reference to the mobile command unit, he advised us, it 14 was taken to the Park approximately 00:30 hours on the 15 5th of September. 16 I'm sorry, I think I'm referring to -- to 17 the van. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that Tab 19 8? Were you referring to a statement at Tab 8? 20 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah, which was the 21 evidence of -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Bob Muir? 23 MR. DONALD WORME: -- of one Bob Muir, 24 and I was -- I was going to try to see if that would 25 refresh this witness' memory, Mr. Commissioner.
1861 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I just 2 couldn't find what you were reading in that. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: I was looking at the 4 second page of that -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The second 6 page? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: -- Commissioner, 8 towards the middle of the page. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see it 10 now, thank you. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: In any event, it indicates that it 16 was taken approximately September the 5th. Does that 17 assist you, sir? 18 A: The -- before I went to the Park, it 19 -- it -- it travelled to Forest, first. It didn't go to 20 the Park immediately. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: It left our location much -- quite a 23 long time before that, although we were notified, we must 24 have had two (2) or three (3) hours to respond. There 25 was no great urgency, there was no rush. It's just that
1871 they wanted it up so we had to bring in the driver, we 2 had to make sure that everything as was to go and it did 3 go to Forest first, before it went to the Park. 4 Q: And who would have been operating 5 that vehicle, sir? 6 A: At that time it would probably -- it 7 would have been Paul, Paul Harding. 8 Q: Any relation? 9 A: Yes, he is my son. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: So that vehicle was taken initially 15 to the Ontario Provincial Police detachment in Forest? 16 A: Yes, it was. 17 Q: Okay -- 18 A: And to rendevous with an officer 19 there. I cannot give you his name, because I didn't -- I 20 wasn't there to make the rendevous. 21 Q: You weren't there to deliver the 22 trailer? 23 A: No, I was not. 24 Q: All right, and would the trailer have 25 been left with the accompanying tractor unit?
1881 A: Yes, it would have, and the crew, 2 with the tender unit. 3 Q: And again, the tender unit was the 4 unit that is equipped with gas and other facilities that 5 would nurse that situation? 6 A: That's correct. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Now, did the tender unit -- am I 11 correct in saying that that was Unit 406? 12 A: At the time that was Unit 406, yes. 13 Q: And we'll come to some photographs of 14 that in a moment. It carried additional lighting 15 equipment, did it? 16 A: It carried two (2) extra -- no, well 17 it carried two (2) large lights that would go on 18 substantial steel tripods and then it carried a little 19 lighter lights, so much as the construction lights for 20 carpenters and that, three (3) of those lights that would 21 be used for -- on tripods also, but not quite as high. 22 Q: I wonder if you might just describe 23 those a little -- a little -- in a little more detail for 24 us, if you would, please? That is, these lights. 25 A: They were sodium vapour lights, they
1891 would be about two (2) -- three (3) feet across and about 2 four (4) feet in height. They -- so they'd be quite a 3 large light, but they're on a very -- they're on a very 4 substantial steel tripod when they're set up, much like 5 these camera, but much heavier, type of thing. 6 And they could raise them up to about, oh, 7 maybe six (6), seven (7), about eight (8) foot I suppose 8 they'd go up. 9 And they were -- but they were mercury 10 vapour type of light, I'm sorry, sodium light. And then 11 there were lighter units, such as this camera stand here, 12 that were -- with three (3) lights on them. 13 I don't know if you've ever seen them for 14 carpenters and that, they used around where they're 15 working in a house without the lights in it. 16 Q: The halogen type light? 17 A: Yeah, halogen type light, yes. And 18 there were three (3) of those in the -- 19 Q: What is the power source for these 20 lights? 21 A: That unit also carried two (2) 22 generators; two (2), 3000 Watt generators. They were 23 hand generators, they could be lifted up and moved 24 around. 25 Q: And that was the next question I was
1901 going to ask you, were these lights mobile in the sense 2 that, could they be move along? 3 A: Yes, they could be moved around and 4 that's in fact, what they used to do with them, just take 5 them and move them to wherever these lights were being 6 used. 7 Q: Aside from the fuel and the lights, 8 do you recall what other equipment might have been in the 9 tender unit? 10 A: Probably about two thousand (2000) 11 foot of cord wrapped in a spool that we used for 12 cordoning off, it was yellow, rather than the tape, we 13 used this cord sometimes. There must have been at least 14 two thousand (2000) feet, if not more. 15 There was -- probably -- there was some 16 shovels, pick head axes. There were -- I'd have to look 17 at the equipment list on the -- do you have it in that 18 book? 19 You have the equipment list in that book 20 that you ..? 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: If you look at tab 12 of the document 24 of your brief, sir, there's a list of various equipment 25 that bears Inquiry Document Number 2001400. It's
1911 initially a faxed cover sheet and indeed it is a fax to 2 George Speck -- 3 A: There it is. 4 Q: -- from yourself? 5 A: It is -- yes. It is Unit 406 missing 6 items: One (1), five (5) pound dry powder extinguisher; 7 two (2) pound CO2; 500 Watt ground lights; two (2), 400 8 Watt ground lights; 400 Watt ground lights; 200 Watt 9 explosive ground lights, in other words, explosive proof, 10 two (2) of them; extension cords; extension cord reels; 11 box of caution tape; battery charger; 1400 Watt Kawasaki 12 generator -- 1400 watts; custom made large steel tripods; 13 500 gallon gas can or five 5 gallon gas can; 5 gallon 14 diesel can; round-mouth shovel; pry bar; pair of work 15 gloves; safety vests; twenty (20) minute flares; large 16 First Aid kit; KED extrication device; poly twenty-four 17 (24) -- that's the line; two (2) piece rain suit; one 18 hundred (100) foot of rope with snaps -- and I can't 19 read the other one; metal cord reel with cable; set of 20 heavy duty booster cables; 200 Watt bulbs; there were 21 extra watt bulbs for the lights, 500 Watt and 400 Watt. 22 Auto parts for Frampton Auto -- auto parts 23 from Frampton Auto Parts. Okay -- sorry -- 24 Q: It carried a full schedule of other 25 equipment aside from the gasoline and such?
1921 A: It was pretty well full, yes, of 2 equipment. 3 Q: And in terms of personnel, you've 4 indicated that there was someone to drive that vehicle, 5 obviously? 6 A: Yes, we had asked that two (2) 7 personnel go with that vehicle just to help, if they had 8 to take off the generator or anything like that type of 9 thing. It was sometimes a little heavy for one person. 10 And at that time we had not anticipated any problems 11 whatsoever and there was -- we manned that unit after a 12 couple of shift changes -- or one (1) shift change 13 anyway, I believe, with personnel that were fairly new. 14 Q: Okay. And do you know who those 15 were? 16 A: Karen Baker was one of the young 17 ladies, was a nursing student and the other chap was -- 18 Q: Mr. Morgan, perhaps? 19 A: Glenn Morgan, yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And they were fairly recent people to 22 St. John Ambulance, without -- hadn't been involved in 23 too much of, large instances. 24 Q: Now, I take it that there would have 25 been other crews assigned to the tender vehicle, you
1931 wouldn't have these two (2) individuals manning the 2 tender vehicle on the twenty-four (24) hour basis? 3 A: No. They had about three (3) or four 4 (4) changes at the time. And given the fact that it was 5 a tender vehicle and there was no other requirement, we 6 use the less trained staff, because it's just a gas 7 filling and oil checking and that type of thing. 8 Q: Of the generators that you already 9 described for us. 10 A: The generators on the -- yes, yes. 11 It's more mundane type of responsibility. 12 Q: And aside, sir, from the provision of 13 this equipment and the personnel for those limited 14 purposes, did St. John's Ambulance have any other 15 involvement in the OPP's operational plan or whatever was 16 going on at that time? 17 A: No, just to furnish a good 18 communications facility for them so that they could 19 better understand and make sure things were safer for 20 everyone involved. 21 Q: And as I understand it, the 22 individuals that you've indicated that were there for the 23 purposes of operating the tender vehicle, that is Baker 24 and Morgan, isn't it the case that they arrived in 25 separate vehicles; that is one arrived in a medical
1941 vehicle? 2 A: Yes. When -- they took one (1) 3 vehicle down and they brought another vehicle back, so 4 that they could then return to London when their shift 5 was changed. 6 And it was just -- it was -- they weren't 7 really scheduled. We were starting to get -- run low on 8 vehicles so they took a medic unit to -- so they could 9 back to London after their shift was over, because the 10 next shift coming up would bring a unit up. 11 And so it was just fortunate or 12 unfortunate whatever the case may be, that we had a medic 13 unit sitting there; it was not scheduled to be there. 14 Q: There was not request for a medical 15 unit? 16 A: No, no. 17 Q: And you've indicated earlier, sir, 18 that the provision of services by St. John Ambulances to 19 organizations would not come unless requested. 20 A: That's correct, yes. 21 Q: And it was -- you were telling us a 22 matter of coincidence that these two (2) individuals 23 because of a shortage of vehicles for transportation had 24 taken a medical vehicle? 25 A: Yes, we had two (2) units signed
1951 there. There was other duties going on in our -- our 2 area and so they had to take a medical unit up for 3 transport because the other unit was coming back at the 4 same time they were going up type of thing so... 5 Q: Was there any agreement in place to 6 your knowledge, sir, for the provision of medical 7 services at that time; that is, from St. John's Ambulance 8 to the organization that was requesting? 9 A: Well, there is a standing regulation 10 in St. John that anytime a police officer, doctor or 11 anyone in the fire -- fire department requests us to 12 transport from an accident, fire scene or any disaster, 13 that we would do so. 14 But, they have to be with someone of 15 authority. We would not do it outside that. The only 16 other time we would transport and we do, when we do 17 inter-hospital transports in London, we do transports all 18 the time. 19 But, they are more senior people that are 20 assigned to those responsibilities, and some of them 21 could be MT's, some of them could be paramedics, some of 22 them could be even surgeons, doctors. Some of them can 23 be nursing students, some are full nursing -- the diploma 24 nurses, or the BSCN's (phonetic) now. 25 So, you really don't know. We know how to
1961 tell the difference but you and the public wouldn't know. 2 But, if we knew we were going to get into transport or 3 medical requirements, there would have been someone else 4 assigned; that was not our case and that was not the 5 reason why we were there. But, once they were there, 6 there is sort of an agreement that we would try to help 7 where we can. 8 Q: Okay. And I expect that we'll here 9 from -- from these two (2) individuals and that in fact 10 that they were requested to provide medical assistance 11 and transport. 12 A: In the debriefing operation to me, 13 yes, they indicated to me that they were asked to provide 14 it. I certainly agreed that they did not do anything 15 wrong in providing it if there was no other source by 16 which they could. 17 And at the time of debriefing with them, I 18 understood they were assigned and standing right beside 19 two (2) Ministry units, and one Ministry unit left, the 20 second Ministry unit left, they were there by themselves 21 and then they were -- they were asked to help in the case 22 that came up. 23 Q: Okay. Just so -- again, so I 24 understand, under the protocol with the Ministry of 25 Health and your own protocol that was existing at that
1971 time and date, that if you were asked by a police 2 officer, a doctor or anyone else in charge of a scene, 3 and the Ministry was not readily available, then you 4 would fall into step and provide those kinds of services? 5 A: That is request -- that is -- that is 6 quite correct. If we were in the City of London, we 7 would radio, because we could, back to the Central 8 Communications, find out if there was a vehicle on its 9 way. 10 And if there was a vehicle on its way, 11 then we'd just maintain the situation and stabilize where 12 we could and -- and then somebody else would transport, 13 but if there wasn't, then we would transport to the 14 closest immediate help. 15 Q: And just further to that, it was your 16 understanding from your earlier communications with 17 Inspector Carson that the only request being made was for 18 a communications centre? 19 A: That's -- that's all we had spoken 20 about, yes. 21 Q: And that was all the expectation that 22 you had? 23 A: Yes, that's correct. 24 Q: All right. And, hence, you took no 25 measures to assign, perhaps, more senior or -- or more
1981 qualified, if I can put it that way -- no disrespect to 2 Baker and Morgan, but you would have assigned someone 3 with, perhaps, more seniority? 4 A: Well, not so much more seniority, but 5 a little more experience. And -- and, yes, but with more 6 -- a little more experience and then -- and that's -- any 7 kind of experience comes with street smarts in every way, 8 shape and form and -- and by doing so, you become much 9 more versatile and -- and able to handle situations no 10 matter what status you are. 11 Q: All right. And, again, in respect to 12 these individuals, to Ms. -- Ms. Baker and Mr. Morgan, 13 you had occasion to debrief with them following their 14 return after the events of September the 6th, 1995? 15 A: This is always our procedure, much 16 like in many of the emergency services, especially with 17 volunteers and especially if it's a -- it's a traumatic 18 situation, we certainly always like to try to read the -- 19 read where they're standing and how -- how they -- how 20 they feel about the thing. 21 Q: And certainly this was a traumatic 22 situation? 23 A: It turned out to be, yes. 24 Q: All right. And what was it that you 25 had learned as a result of engaging in this debriefing?
1991 A: Well, talking to Ms. Baker, that she 2 was -- she was a nursing student and she was a little 3 concerned, she was a little shaken up at the time of the 4 completion and well she should be, because she was pretty 5 -- she was pretty new. They agreed to help when they 6 were required to. 7 There was no other resource around. 8 Probably, talking resource, maybe Sarnia would be the 9 closest unit maybe get to come and I don't know how many 10 -- how long that is away travelling. So, they reacted 11 when the police asked them to. 12 It's a very difficult thing working in the 13 back of a unit if you're not used to it. If you're a 14 physician and, in fact, probably of some assistance here, 15 if you use a stethoscope for blood pressure cuff or to 16 use -- take blood pressure and that, you can get red -- 17 road noise generated right up through the whole system, 18 especially if you're travelling along the highway, and 19 it's very difficult for trained people that are doing it 20 all the time to get a good reading sometimes. 21 And it was most difficult for her and I 22 could see it; I could read it in -- in the way she was 23 placing it towards me and she had some qualms. And being 24 a young lady at the time, she had just come out of 25 training, just going to write her exams, I certainly
2001 didn't want her walking way with the idea that -- that 2 she was failing -- had failed in some way. 3 But I -- I also could empathize with her 4 that it was most difficult to deal with a situation, 5 especially when the adrenaline and your own pulse is 6 pounding in your ears. 7 Q: And, do you know the name of the 8 individual that she and Mr. Morgan were transporting? 9 A: Mr. George. And I -- I can't go any 10 further than that. I don't know -- I just -- I know it 11 was Mr. George. 12 Q: Does the name, Cecil Bernard George, 13 -- does that assist you at all, sir? 14 A: Yes, that sounds familiar. 15 Q: All right. And you're aware that Ms. 16 Baker, as she then was, had reported that she was unable 17 to locate a pulse on Cecil Bernard George during the 18 course of transport? 19 A: That's what I was concerned about. 20 The -- she had reported to me directly in her briefing 21 that the paramedic -- and each OPP team is assigned a 22 paramedic on the unit -- had checked Mr. George and found 23 him, at the time, hurting in some cases, but stable at 24 the time. 25 And when he was brought to a unit and
2011 placed on the stretcher or we placed -- the stretcher 2 taken to them and placed in the unit, that upon 3 transporting the person in, she was unable to get a good 4 reading or get a reading of the -- when she tried to take 5 a blood pressure from the stethoscope and she, sort of, I 6 believe was left with the feeling that she didn't do the 7 job she should have done. 8 And I just tried to reassure her that it 9 was a difficult thing to do, if you weren't used to doing 10 it, getting a -- because she had to report to the front 11 that she was unable to get a pulse and a heartbeat. 12 Q: And that was interpreted I'm -- 13 A: But, then immediately after -- 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: Mr. Worme, then immediately after, no 16 so far later on, it was all fine and good. And she 17 couldn't figure out, in her own mind, why that would 18 happen and how it could happen. 19 And I just tried to assure her that it 20 could happen to -- in my experiences and experiences of 21 other personnel that I'd worked on, units, and road 22 vehicles are bad and so are helicopters, very bad. 23 Q: Okay. So, Mr. Cecil Bernard George 24 may or may not have had a pulse? 25 A: That's -- as far as -- yes --
2021 Q: All right. And that was interpreted, 2 at least by Mr. Morgan, as that vital signs were absent? 3 A: It was interpreted by the driver 4 because he was in the front with an officer, and then he 5 went into a much -- what should I say, upped-code, to 6 lights and siren -- 7 Q: That's a code four (4)? 8 A: Yes -- 9 Q: Yes -- 10 A: -- and proceeded to Strathroy 11 Hospital in quick time. 12 Q: All right. Now, am I -- am I 13 correct, sir, in assuming that at that particular time, 14 that is in September of 1995, the diagnostic equipment 15 that might be available today, was not present? 16 A: No, at that time, defibrillators 17 weren't in play. I suppose, really even the professional 18 service didn't have much more than a CO2 and that was 19 oxygen with a resuscitator on it, a head, and in the 20 course, they had blood pressure cuffs and that type of 21 situation, suction and that, but, that's pretty -- that's 22 not too advanced. 23 Q: Pulse metres; any such thing? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Were those available at that time?
2031 A: No, no, we weren't using -- we 2 weren't using pulse readers, and I do not believe the 3 Ministry was using pulse metres either at that time. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: They are now, there's lots of them 6 and all kinds of stuff around. Defibrillators; you could 7 read off a strip on the defibrillators what you would get 8 and you could see it right there, but, it was not -- 9 Q: So, the difficulty that Ms. Baker had 10 experience, whether in fact, Mr. Cecil George had a pulse 11 or not, would have been apparent today? 12 A: Oh yeah. Yes. 13 Q: But, not by the measures of the day? 14 A: No, no, it wasn't -- the overall 15 equipment is much more progressive the last few years. 16 Q: I'm going to take you back to the 17 photographs which are marked as P-340. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: The next photograph we have here, I 22 wonder if you might just describe for -- describe that 23 for us? It would appear to be the St. John's Ambulance 24 window van that bears the marking four zero six (406) on 25 it?
2041 A: Four zero six (406); that -- the van 2 you saw, the high-rise unit before, this is the one that 3 was prior to that. This is the unit -- the tender unit 4 that I used to have a ladder on top of there and then the 5 equipment was carried inside this vehicle, yes, and 6 that's referred to as four zero six (406). And it also 7 had a set of lights on it. 8 Q: It had a set of lights? 9 A: That's correct, yes. 10 Q: And when was this photograph taken? 11 A: Upon immediately returning to us from 12 Ipperwash. 13 Q: And do you recall what date, 14 approximate, that might be? 15 A: When it came back -- no I'm sorry -- 16 is it in the notes? I believe it's in the notes, sir. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Your next photograph would seem to be 21 the same vehicle? 22 A: It's just at a different angle, it's 23 looking down at the vehicle a little closer. Actually 24 the door was pried open and -- 25 Q: And you're noting what appears to be
2051 damage on the two (2) side doors? 2 A: Yes, these doors here were all pushed 3 in and they had been pried open and had been -- had been 4 sprung. They had been jammed back in there and so that 5 we could have it pulled back down by a tow truck. 6 Q: All right. You mentioned that there 7 were emergency lights on it that are no longer, at least 8 in the photograph? 9 A: On the photograph, no, there's no -- 10 and I believe you do have some other photographs; there's 11 no battery in it. 12 Q: Yeah, we'll come to that. 13 A: Okay, sure. 14 Q: We'll perhaps turn to that now. Oh, 15 I'm sorry, the next picture we have, that -- perhaps you 16 can just tell us about that? 17 A: That is the Command Unit as of the 18 day. Again, you notice that it does not have markings on 19 it. There's no markings, there's no crest. Today it has 20 the two (2) crests -- County and City crests with 21 'Command' and 'Communications.' 22 It did carry the, 'Mobile Support Unit' on 23 it, but that's as it was before it left for Ipperwash. 24 Q: And, mobile command -- pardon me, 25 'Mobile Support' --
2061 A: 'Mobile Support' -- 2 Q: -- is written about the cab. 3 A: -- is just above the door on the 4 tractor's side. 5 Q: All right. So, this is a -- this is 6 a photograph of the Command Unit that was ultimately 7 delivered, you say, to the Forest Detachment? 8 A: That's correct, yes. 9 Q: All right. This is the -- 10 A: That's a side view. 11 Q: -- a picture of the same vehicle? 12 A: That's a side view of it showing the 13 same vehicle, yes. 14 Q: And, again, absent are the markings. 15 A: Markings as it is today up here, the 16 City crest and the County crest and 'Communications' -- 17 I'm sorry, 'Command' and 'Communications' on it. 18 Q: All right. The next photograph is 19 the interior in somewhat disarray; would you just tell us 20 about that, please? 21 A: This -- you saw the pictures prior to 22 it being returned, the computer and all the equipment is 23 gone. The phones have been taken off, cut off the wall. 24 All the radios have been taken out and -- of the unit. 25 The weather station that was in the rear
2071 of the unit was taken out. The -- the fax lines, the 2 VCR's, everything was stripped from the unit, I believe 3 it was thirty-one thousand dollars ($31,000) worth of 4 equipment. 5 Q: All right. We'll come to that in a 6 moment. It would appear that in that room in the front, 7 which I think you might have referred to as a debriefing 8 room or a conference room -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- there would seem to be something 11 on the floor, orange in appearance. This is not shown, I 12 would suggest to you, in other photographs? 13 A: That was on the floor. That is a 14 mattress. That -- that's a mattress and on the -- on the 15 top of it -- on here, there was supposed to be a purple 16 type of bench seats; they're about -- probably about two 17 (2) inches thick and they're probably about a foot -- two 18 (2) feet and a half wide and about six (6) foot long. 19 And there would be one (1), two (2), three (3), four (4), 20 five (5), six (6) of them and they're gone. 21 In this photo they're gone; they're not 22 there. And there's just this one -- and that unit was 23 being carried in the -- in the four zero six (406) in 24 the -- 25 Q: The auxiliary unit?
2081 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. The orange item on the floor 3 in the conference area? 4 A: Yes, that's a cushion, a mattress 5 cushion. 6 Q: Okay. The next picture? 7 A: The next picture is the steering 8 column, the smashed out steering column, in the inside of 9 the driver's side of the vehicle. 10 Q: Some debris on the floor? 11 A: That's the steering column. The 12 pieces of the steering column are on the floor here, yes. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: This is the back portion. As I said 15 before, we were looking through that closed door. The 16 coffee maker -- the coffee maker, someone has suggested 17 that there was a bullet hole in it, but no, there wasn't. 18 Someone had put a -- ran a pen or a pencil through it 19 and, of course, made it null and void, it's no good to 20 us. 21 The fridge was down here and so that was 22 still in the vehicle, everything else was gone. 23 Q: So, in the galley-type area, there 24 was -- other than the damaged microwave... 25 A: Yes, the microwave and -- and some of
2091 the other utensils were gone out of -- out of the galley. 2 Q: The next photograph would appear to 3 be, again, that front area, that is the interview or 4 conference area? 5 A: That's true. And in -- under the -- 6 under the seats here are these books and they're the -- 7 much the same as the books that you had there showing the 8 various different types of equipment. But, we used to -- 9 we -- every large event we went to, we used to have them 10 there so we could explain to people what we did and how 11 we did it. 12 So, they were there, they had been pulled 13 out. You notice that there's nothing on the benches here 14 and in the original shots, there was the pads were all on 15 here, all the around. And again, the mattress cover -- 16 mattress cushion. 17 And underneath here -- 18 Q: oh, I'm sorry. Let me go back to 19 that. 20 A: Right here, that little box, that 21 goes in that hole right there and up on top of there, the 22 -- VCR used to be stored in there. So that box was 23 lifted and the VCR taken out. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: That -- the absence of the battery
2101 was taken out. 2 Q: That's just the engine compartment of 3 four zero six (406)? 4 A: That's the engine compartment of four 5 zero six (406) with the battery cables unhooked. That's 6 also the driver's compartment of four zero six (406), the 7 siren unit, the REO unit. It had been pulled out and 8 smashed, both -- both units. 9 Q: Do you have any idea, sir, what that 10 item is that would have -- sitting on the -- 11 A: That there? 12 Q: -- on the seat of the passenger? 13 A: That's what they refer -- case for a 14 KED extrication device. That is a device used if 15 someone's in a car accident, it opens up and it goes down 16 to the back, it comes around and it will keep their head 17 straight while they move the person out and lay them down 18 onto a fracture board. 19 That's why they call -- it's referred to 20 as a KED, extrication device. It's specially for someone 21 sitting and they're moving them into the prone position. 22 Q: As opposed to a back board? 23 A: Yeah. Because you can't bend a back 24 board when somebody's sitting down. You have to put the 25 neck protection there, then move them around under the
2111 back board and then release them so they can use the back 2 board as the means of holding the neck in position. 3 Q: And can you describe how that -- how 4 that looks and unfortunately we only see a piece of that 5 in the photograph? 6 A: It's sitting on the seat and it's 7 actually -- it's folded over. The KED extrication device 8 is out of it, so it's just a bag itself. The bag is 9 about a foot and half wide and it's about -- it would be 10 about five (5) foot long. It's a long narrow bag. 11 Q: I see. How many of those extrication 12 devices might be carried either in the tender units or as 13 part of the equipment that might have been loaned on that 14 occasion. 15 A: Only one (1) in the tender unit. 16 Q: All right. The next photograph -- 17 A: The front of the vehicle, the front 18 windshield's smashed. That is of today that's a -- a 19 rehabilitation unit. That has a canteen unit that's used 20 and it's marked in red and black. 21 Q: Just -- just again if I may, sir. In 22 1995 that canteen unit was in service? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did it have those markings 25 specifically designating it as a canteen?
2121 A: We were just coming on over top of 2 all the doors of the vehicles, putting support vehicles, 3 some we had done and some of them we didn't have done. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: But it was just over top of the 6 doors, we were putting it. And since that time of the -- 7 of Ipperwash we've moved it to red so it stands out a 8 little more red and black. So it stands out a little 9 more. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And you had described for us, sir, 14 the damage and we've seen depictions of the damage done 15 to the various units. I think you've alluded to a figure 16 that is a figure of the monetary loss. 17 A: Yes. It -- the Ontario Government 18 reimbursed us for twenty-one thousand dollars ($21,000) 19 and then the other we had to absorb ourselves. 20 Q: And how was it that you became 21 informed and when did you become informed that your 22 organization had occasioned this loss? 23 A: I was informed by -- was it Inspector 24 Carson at the time? 25 Q: Right.
2131 A: That it had -- and I was to attend in 2 Forest to speak with him. 3 Q: And did you do so? 4 A: I did so. 5 Q: And what happened? 6 A: He was -- he was -- he apologized. 7 He had -- I think he was taken aback himself with the 8 situation. He had not expected it and he was -- he was 9 very concerned about the -- how it was going to affect 10 the community as a whole. 11 Q: And if I refer you to Tab Number 12 12 which you've had an opportunity to refer to earlier, it's 13 Inquiry Document 2001400, and I'm referring to your page 14 7 or it's the faxed stamp page 7, 15 "Total damage and missing equipment for 16 Units 406 and 444, nineteen thousand, 17 one hundred and eleven dollars and 18 thirteen cents ($19,111.13)"? 19 A: That's on the one (1) vehicle, yes, 20 four zero (40) -- it keeps going up, there was another 21 one (1), there should be another... 22 Q: Or perhaps that was the initial 23 assessment of loss? 24 A: That was the initial one (1). I 25 don't believe the vehicle damage was on that. That was
2141 just what was in the vehicles. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: It was just the equipment that was in 4 the vehicles, I don't believe the -- and I see the auto 5 parts that Clark's Towing was in that and Watt's Towing 6 apparently they were towed under an OPP direction to 7 various locations. 8 And what happened was that Fanshawe 9 College, in our predicament and limited resources, they 10 had agreed to repair the unit and repaired it totally. 11 And the cost to that repair was fifteen -- the fifteen, 12 one thousand five hundred (1,500), for the parts were. 13 Q: If I refer you to Tab 13, it was an 14 interview that you had provided to Detective Armstrong on 15 January 2nd of 2003, Inquiry Document 500170, at pages 16 16 to 18, you indicate sir that some twenty-six thousand 17 dollars ($26,000) worth of equipment was lost? 18 A: The total yes. The total that was 19 submitted to -- was asked for by the Ontario Provincial 20 Police and submitted to them was for that amount, yes. 21 Q: That the radios were taken, the 22 telephones were taken? 23 A: Like the one (1) radio alone was 24 something like five thousand dollars ($5,000) and then 25 they went down from there.
2151 Q: All right. Some of those items we 2 note from the Document at Tab 12, which we've referred to 3 earlier were, in fact, returned? 4 A: There were three (3) -- three (3) 5 radios returned to us, that's correct. 6 Q: Okay. But, for the most part, your 7 indication in that statement was that the vehicle was 8 essentially stripped? 9 A: That's right, yes. 10 Q: And you indicate in that particular 11 statement that there was a hole shot through the 12 microwave or something piercing anyways and now you've 13 told us now that your assessment of that is that it 14 wasn't a gunshot, but, in fact something -- something 15 else? 16 A: Something very sharp, it was about the 17 size of a pencil or a pen. It had to be something very 18 substantial to jam it through it, yes. 19 Q: And the mobile command unit itself, 20 once you got to Forest to discuss the matter of the loss 21 with -- of equipment with Inspector Carson, what happened 22 after that Superintendent Harding? 23 A: He tried to suggest to us at that 24 time, none of the equipment had been returned, he had 25 suggested that -- that possibly there was a chance for
2161 negotiation of some of the equipment back. And that he 2 would keep us informed of when the vehicles were released 3 and when they could move them. 4 But, as things unfolded, he would keep us 5 informed because at that time he had no idea, they had 6 not recovered anything as at that point. 7 Q: And I take it that subsequent to 8 that, through these negotiations that various items of 9 equipment were returned to you and those are noted in 10 your document at Tab 12? 11 A: That's correct, yes. I think they 12 refer to it as they negotiated the equipment back, I 13 believe. 14 Q: In terms of the command unit itself, 15 did you -- well I take it you eventually got that back, 16 we've seen pictures of it? 17 A: We rebuilt it, yes, with the help of 18 a number of firms and individuals, yes. 19 Q: And I, of course, had the occasion to 20 look at that unit when I visited with you in London some 21 time ago? 22 A: That's correct, yes. 23 Q: You had indicated, at that point, 24 that there was additional damage that was not included in 25 your reports to the OPP?
2171 A: That's correct. We did not know that 2 the inners -- when the unit was dropped, it cracked the 3 inner frame and when we had to -- we had to look at 4 repairing all that structure. 5 Q: When you say the unit was dropped, 6 there was some attempt to move the unit; I take it? 7 A: That's correct. At the time 8 apparently the tractor was separated from the vehicle, it 9 was parked across from where the actual trailer and side 10 was. Someone had -- the keys were in it -- someone had 11 started the unit, brought it around, backed it under the 12 trailer. 13 This is a reverse coupler, it's not like a 14 regular transport truck. The plate is reversed to the 15 regular transport, the pin's reversed, and unless you put 16 it in position properly and then put the safety on, you 17 do not lock it and what had happened, they put it into 18 position and then lifted the landing gear on it and drove 19 away and the whole -- the whole unit dropped. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And, apparently from what I gather 22 was, the tractor was taken into the Park, but the -- the 23 trailer was not. 24 Q: Aside from items belonging to your 25 organization missing, is it not also the case that there
2181 were items there that weren't there before, for example, 2 an OPP radio tower or radio system with a charger? 3 A: Someone else would have to speak to 4 that. I did not know, although one (1) of the -- one (1) 5 of the investigating officers -- the Ident. officer asked 6 me if one (1) of the radios was ours and I said, No, it 7 was not. It was too high -- it was not ours, but I 8 understood him to say that there was some radio equipment 9 over and above ours there. 10 Q: Okay. There was some graffiti as 11 well? Do you recall, sir, whether -- 12 A: Yes, I recall the graffiti. 13 Q: Do you recall the nature of that 14 graffiti? 15 A: I do. 16 Q: And what was it? 17 A: Do I have to read it in? 18 Q: I think it's -- you know, it's 19 something that you observed. 20 A: Well, it's -- it's some -- somebody's 21 -- I don't think this would be a credit to everybody, but 22 someone had put on it, and they just put down, "Pigs 23 Suck" and then carried on with various things. 24 Q: And, did it seem to you, sir, from 25 that indication that there was an equating of the
2191 services or, at least, the provision of this equipment by 2 St. John's Ambulance to the OPP with, in fact, the OPP 3 operation? 4 A: Yes. Yes, very much so. It... 5 Q: All right. 6 A: And we have suffered over that for 7 the last X number of years, so they had -- someone from 8 this community has made it a point to have that happen. 9 Q: And part of your purpose here today, 10 sir, is to speak to that. 11 A: True. We -- our headquarters is 12 situated in the City of London and many of the 13 community around us are Aboriginal people that live in 14 that area. Our equipment was burnt on two (2) occasions, 15 considerable damage to -- in fact the unit was repaired 16 by Fanshawe and put back on the road. It was completely 17 destroyed again, completely burned out and one (1) of the 18 trailers beside it, another quite a few thousand dollars 19 was -- happened. 20 I -- my wife is from this area, we lived 21 on the town line. My mother-in-law taught on Kettle 22 Point Reserve. My father-in-law, as a boy, lived right 23 next door to the Kettle Point Reserve, I know a lot of 24 the natives personally; used to come to the farm out on 25 the Ajura (phonetic) side road and I was very surprised
2201 at what had happened, but given the circumstances, I 2 could see -- I could see their frustration. 3 Q: Just in fairness, Superintendent 4 Harding, the fact that your equipment was burned and that 5 there were Aboriginal people in the neighbourhood, in the 6 vicinity, you're not equating that damage to these 7 individuals, are you? 8 A: No, I don't think so, but in Forest 9 here, itself, just out on the Rawlings Road, there is a 10 car that is painted up with the St. John colours and has 11 been there for some time. The Bell Telephone was also in 12 the same ilk as we were and it was removed and taken 13 away, but that car has -- has been there for some time 14 for a number of years and it just has, 'St. John Who?' on 15 it and it's -- it's -- I think a symbol of someone's 16 concern about it and we were very -- we didn't want that 17 to happen because there was no intent on our part 18 whatsoever to confuse or mislead anyone whatsoever. 19 Q: And, what would you say, sir, to 20 those people who might be of that impression, who might 21 think that there was somehow some involvement by your 22 organization? 23 A: There was involvement by our 24 organization in trying to make the whole operation a lot 25 safer. That's what the communication equipment was for.
2211 That's what the advance communication equipment was for. 2 So everyone knew what was happening. 3 So there would be nothing go astray. 4 That's what our aim and that's what Carson's aim was. I 5 think that's what we were asked to do, to make it and 6 make it -- what should I say, better. So everyone knew 7 what was happening and that's all I can say, is that 8 there was no intent to do anything otherwise. 9 Q: One (1) of the things that did go 10 wrong, sir, that we've been told about and I'm sure we'll 11 hear more about, is that the generators had gone out at 12 some point in time, you've described those generators as 13 being a 7000 and a 1000 Watt? 14 A: Five thousand (5000) -- 15 Q: Pardon me, my -- 16 A: Seven thousand 7000 and 5000 Watt. 17 Q: And these are gas generators that are 18 located underneath the command unit? 19 A: The command unit and it's attached -- 20 they drain off a tank that's with that unit specifically. 21 Q: And the back up unit, does it run on 22 the same -- 23 A: It runs off the same gas tank, yes. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: And, of course, if they run out of
2221 gas then neither one (1) of them will work. And the one 2 (1) main one (1) that was operating at the time, would 3 then stop. What are -- and I can't speak to this because 4 with the exception that, the understanding was that the - 5 - we would not go in any place, as long as a unit was 6 being used by another agency, unless we were asked to 7 come and attend to something specific. 8 And that's exactly what we did and we were 9 asked to attend to re-service the unit. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Although the times were marked down 12 on the board for the Ontario Provincial Police to that -- 13 running times and that, they were trying to keep track of 14 them, but, I guess there was a lot of things happening at 15 the time. 16 Q: And the people that were manning the 17 tender unit were not alerted in time and consequently 18 there was a power loss suffered by this unit? 19 A: That's correct, that was correct. 20 Q: And you were informed of that? 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: The last area I want to just cover 23 with you, sir. There were a number of carpets or floor 24 coverings that you -- that were in the command vehicle? 25 A: On the --
2231 Q: I noted in the photographs that they 2 were not present? 3 A: In the photographs I mentioned that 4 there was seats, there were the seats where there were 5 cushions. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Approximately about two (2) inches, 8 maybe about two (2) inches foam rubber in them. But, 9 they're very pliable, they're very pliable. They're 10 approximately two (2) feet, two (2) feet wide. And 11 they're approximately six (6) feet long. 12 And, yes, there was about six (6) of them, 13 I believe. 14 Q: And we noted that those were absent 15 in the photographs -- 16 A: Yes -- 17 Q: -- that depicted some of the 18 destruction? 19 A: Yes, they were absent. 20 Q: All right. Were those ever returned 21 at all, sir? 22 A: They were returned, but, they were in 23 the other vehicle. 24 Q: I see. There were floor runners, as 25 well?
2241 A: They're mats, much the same as the 2 mats you rent from companies, just like this one (1) 3 here. A little wider -- 4 Q: Black rubber? 5 A: Black rubber ones that are sitting in 6 the -- there were one (1), two (2), three (3), four (4) 7 of them, yes. 8 Q: All right. And there had been some 9 testimony that we've heard here in these proceedings, 10 Superintendent, that there were observed within the 11 command unit, body bags. 12 What do you say about that? 13 A: No. No, no there was no -- nothing 14 that we had. 15 Q: Is that equipment that normally would 16 be carried in such vehicle, or indeed, in any of the 17 units that you might loan out? 18 A: No, nothing. In fact, the only ones 19 I've seen carry them are heavy -- our heavy rescue unit 20 carry them because of our -- when I was with the Fire 21 Service and they carry them because of diving situations, 22 eh, body recovery from water. 23 Most of that is relied upon the removal 24 service of the area to deliver unless it's a mass 25 casualty situation and they're ordered by the government.
2251 Q: And might you describe those that 2 you're familiar with, at least from the heavy rescue 3 unit, from your days with the London Fire Department? 4 What might these bags look like? 5 A: Well, I've seen them, some are black. 6 I've seen some orange. I've seen some purple. Those are 7 the three (3) colours that I've seen them in. It depends 8 on who was using them and in what, you know, a lot of the 9 funeral directors had sort of a purple one that they 10 brought in for body removal from homes and that type of 11 thing. 12 You'll see a lot of removal services, some 13 today, will have zip up black ones. There are various 14 types. And also there's some plain ones now, like a -- 15 like a plastic, a vinyl or a plastic type of bag. 16 Q: And the purples that you've seen, 17 would they be similar in colour to the cushions that -- 18 that we have seen in the earlier depictions in the front 19 or the conference area of the communications unit? 20 A: A lot of colour is used, Ferno 21 (phonetic) Washington, their colour is purple and a lot 22 of their stretchers and their blankets and some are 23 purple and because you're dealing in both areas of 24 transport, both by transport and... 25 Q: All right. What about anything else
2261 in the unit that might be perhaps even mistaken for a 2 body bag to -- to a layperson or the uninitiated? 3 Were there any blankets for example? 4 A: Oh. Yes, there were three (3) grey 5 blankets under the seats in the -- in that compartment -- 6 the compartment we showed you at the front of the 7 compartment. Those seats lift up and there were three 8 (3) army blankets, like the grey army blankets. 9 There were three (3) of them folded 10 sitting under that seat. That's the only blankets I 11 believe that were there. 12 Q: I think those are all the questions 13 that I have, Superintendent Harding, and given the hour 14 it's likely that we will be adjourning for the day and 15 you would be asked then to return tomorrow. 16 Other counsel have the right to cross- 17 examine and perhaps before we adjourn for the day, 18 Commissioner, you may want to canvas counsel on that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we do 20 that now? Do any counsel wish to examine -- let's get an 21 idea how long you might be? 22 Yes, Mr. Orkin...? 23 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Ten (10) minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 25 minutes. Can somebody make a note of it?
2271 Mr. Rosenthal...? 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About an hour and a 3 half, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About an 5 hour and a half. 6 Mr. Ross. I'm surprised. Yes, Mr. 7 Ross...? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Scullion. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I thought half an 11 hour depending on how much -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Depending on 13 what else is going on? 14 Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 16 ten (10) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 18 Roland...? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Five (5) minutes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 O'Marra...? 22 MR. AL O'MARRA: Perhaps fifteen (15) at 23 the most. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 25 Eyolfson...?
2281 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Maybe five (5) 2 minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 We'll start nine o'clock tomorrow morning. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: 9:00 a.m. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We will 7 adjourn now until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. Thank you 8 very much. 9 10 (WITNESS RETIRES) 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 13 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, April 19th at 9:00 14 a.m. 15 16 ---Upon adjourning at 5:01 p.m. 17 18 19 Certified Correct 20 21 22 ________________________ 23 Dustin Warnock 24 25