11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 7th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Susan Freeborn ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) 18 19 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 20 Anna Perschy ) (np) 21 Melissa Panjer ) 22 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 ROSE MANNING, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 7 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 111 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 119 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 133 10 11 MAYNARD DONALD GEORGE, Affirmed 12 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 157 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 206 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-332 Document 2003357 statement of Staff 4 Sergeant K. Bouwman, November 17/'94 5 11:55 hours to August 05/'95, 10:05 6 hours, re: contacts with people living 7 on CFB Ipperwash 68 8 P-333 Three photographs of "Sam" George and 9 his children in native dress. 174 10 P-334 Sarnia Observer article "Remembering 11 Dudley George" by Anne Kavanagh 12 Beachey 186 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Mrs. Manning. Good morning. 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good morning, Mr. 9 Commissioner. Good morning, Mrs. Manning. 10 11 ROSE MANNING, Resumed 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 14 A: Good Morning. 15 Q: My apologies. Before we broke 16 yesterday, you will recall that we were discussing the 17 events of 1993 and the movement of people onto the Army 18 Camp and the last topic we discussed was your walk to 19 Ottawa; the walk of many of you to Ottawa. 20 I'd like to move onto another topic now. 21 We've heard from other witnesses about allegations that a 22 Military helicopter flying over the -- the Army Camp was 23 shot during -- shot at during 1993 -- in August of 1993. 24 Were you aware of those allegations? 25 A: Is that where we broke off yesterday?
81 I don't -- I thought it was -- I think that's -- my story 2 begins before that. 3 Q: Yeah. And we had discussed 4 yesterday, or you had told us about going into the Army 5 Camp and you told us about walking to Ottawa or driving 6 to Ottawa, and so the next topic that I was going to ask 7 you about were the allegations concerning the helicopter. 8 A: Am I aware of the -- the first thing, 9 I would like to introduce myself. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: (NATIVE LANGUAGE SPOKEN) And I'm 12 known as Rose Manning. Miijwetch. 13 Q: Shall I continue? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: We have heard from other witnesses of 16 an allegation that a helicopter flying over the Army Camp 17 was shot at in August of 1993. 18 Were you aware of those allegations? 19 A: Yes, I was. 20 Q: Okay. And were you present at the 21 Army Camp when it -- when this incident was alleged to 22 have occurred? 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: Prior to that, though, there was all
91 kinds of helicopters flying over. There was police 2 helicopters at times and there was the Army and we had 3 nightly visits from the, I guess it's the army -- the 4 army. Too early in the morning for me. 5 But we have visits every -- nightly from 6 the helicopters so it wasn't a big surprise that wow, 7 there's a helicopter flying over. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: They -- they continuously fly over 10 about -- about every two (2) hours. 11 Q: Okay. And did you find those -- 12 A: And then shone their lights on us. 13 So that night wasn't any different. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And you were -- what 15 was the effect on you and your family of helicopters 16 flying overhead as you've described. 17 A: Well they were annoying because you 18 were just -- just getting to sleep and a helicopter would 19 fly over and wake you up. But, I guess that was their 20 intention was to keep us awake and maybe scare us off of 21 there because we weren't getting -- getting our rest. 22 You -- we weren't sleeping properly. 23 Q: Okay. So returning now to the 24 allegations we've -- I've referred to. On the night in 25 question, what were you doing?
101 A: I was babysitting -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- at my camp on the range. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: That's beside the quarry where I had 6 my camp and that's where I was with all the Manning 7 family, all the Manning children. 8 Q: Okay. And what else was going on in 9 the Army Camp that evening? 10 A: Well, they had -- they had a memorial 11 feast for my -- for my oldest daughter at the George 12 camp. 13 Q: Okay. And what was your daughter's 14 name? 15 A: Marena. 16 Q: And can you describe the 17 circumstances of that memorial feast, how it came to be? 18 A: Well, I suppose we were all there in 19 our -- finally all home in our home -- homeland and I 20 guess everybody was wishing she was there and somebody 21 suggested we have a memorial feast for her so -- and so 22 they were all invited. We had a medicine man there and 23 we -- I guess they had everything they needed so they 24 went ahead with -- but I didn't want to attend anyway 25 because it was still -- it is still a touchy subject for
111 me and was at the time so I volunteered to keep the 2 children. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And -- because the rest of my 5 children wanted to see her which they did. They seen her 6 dancing around the fire. 7 Q: And your daughter had passed away 8 some time before? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And we also understand from 11 other witnesses that the OPP conducted a search of -- of 12 the dwellings of the people occupying the camp shortly 13 after those -- the allegations were made that a 14 helicopter was shot at. Do you recall that search? 15 A: The night in question, you know, yes, 16 it was right the very next day. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: They searched the whole -- they 19 searched the whole camp from the back to the front 20 because they thought somebody shot the helicopter. But I 21 suppose you've seen pictures of it. It don't look like 22 it was shot. Maybe it was so low somebody may have throw 23 a stone at it or something. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And returning to -- 25 A: I remember that night because it came
121 over my -- my place with all the kids and -- and I was 2 trying to shine light back at them and I couldn't because 3 I couldn't connect the wires to the battery, putting the 4 wires in the wrong spot and it -- this began to spark. 5 Q: Okay. And, so, returning now to the 6 OPP search, can -- can you describe what happened? Did 7 they search your dwelling? 8 A: They searched everybody's. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: Like I said, they started off at the 11 -- the beach and they had dogs and -- and they walked all 12 through the bush and searched; it took them all day. And 13 they -- they had a helicopter that night, too -- that 14 day, too, and it -- and it landed in front of my -- my 15 camp. 16 Q: Okay. And they -- you mean the OPP? 17 A: The OPP searched all through there. 18 Q: Okay. And it was an OPP helicopter? 19 A: Yes, it was, and we -- we have a -- 20 we have a picture. We have a picture of that. 21 Q: Okay. Can you describe that 22 helicopter for us, Mrs. Manning? 23 A: Yes, it was white and blue. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: Or white and black, but it was -- and
131 it was marked, "OPP." 2 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. 3 A: And -- and I do have a videotape of 4 it somewhere. I was just talking to my daughter and she 5 was wondering where that videotape went of -- of this 6 helicopter that flew over because I went underneath it 7 and I know another -- I know a few people that have that 8 because they said they remember me going through the -- 9 past the helicopter, because I was getting my medication; 10 I was trying to get my medication. 11 Q: Okay. And did you have any 12 interactions with OPP officers that day? 13 A: Yes, I had one (1). 14 Q: Hmm hmm. And can you describe that 15 for us? 16 A: Well, I think I had two (2) of them. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: I had one (1) at the bridge, at that 19 Mud Creek bridge because they told me not to cross that 20 bridge. 21 Q: And that's -- 22 A: And I said I'm -- I said, I'm going 23 across and they said, No, you're not. And I said -- 24 someone said -- there was a few of them there, I said, 25 I'm going across and they said, We're going to shoot you
141 if you do and I don't know if they were jesting or if it 2 was trying to intimidate or -- I don't know. I -- I knew 3 they weren't going to shoot me, anyway, but I said, Well, 4 take your pick, either shoot me from behind or shoot me 5 going through, but I'm going through. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: So, I crossed the bridge and I had 8 one (1) kid in each hand, but myself, I didn't think they 9 would, it was just -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- and then I went past the -- there 12 was a lot of people there. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. A lot of people at the Army 14 Camp? 15 A: Right at that bridge as I was going 16 across, because we had a little -- little -- that little 17 building. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: It was on the news last night, that 20 little building and it was our -- our supply room -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- or house or whatever you want to 23 call it. And then I had another little encounter with a 24 female officer. I said, I'm going home because they were 25 digging around at my house now and I said, I'm going back
151 there because I had -- I was after my medication. 2 I just -- found out I was a diabetic and 3 I'd have my medication and I didn't have it and I was 4 getting shaky and -- and she says, You're not going back 5 there. I said, Yes I am and she got a hold of me and 6 somebody ran up and said, She's an -- she's an old lady 7 and she let go of me immediately. 8 And she said, Well, you shouldn't go back 9 there. But anyway, that was the -- that was -- she let 10 go of me and I went back to the -- I went back to my camp 11 and got my medication. 12 There they -- they even upset our garbage. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I seen garbage all over and they had 15 gloves on; they put all that garbage back. 16 So they really went through our camp with 17 a fine tooth comb. And they did find a broken bee bee 18 gun and a slingshot and flare gun. 19 Q: And where did they find that? 20 A: At our camp. So, they took those 21 with them. 22 Q: Okay. Okay. Moving now to a 23 different topic, I understand that you were acquainted 24 with an officer, an OPP officer named Bouwman? 25 A: Well, I knew him, I can't say I was
161 acquaint -- he was a close acquaintance. 2 Q: Okay. And where did you know him 3 from? 4 A: From near my home. He was my 5 neighbour. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm going to ask you about 7 a series of conversations that Officer Bouwman has made 8 notes regarding. If I could take you to Tab 3 of the 9 binder in from of you. 10 A: I'm not looking for it because I 11 can't see it anyway. 12 Q: Okay. I will read you then the 13 relevant passages of the documents. And that is Inquiry 14 Document Number 20 -- for the record, 203357. 15 A: Well, just before that, I would like 16 to say if -- if the -- it just dawned on me just now, if 17 the police were really -- they were looking a gun or 18 looking for something, a weapon of some sort, but if they 19 looked all through that camp and all through the bushes 20 and wherever, they -- they never found nothing, so there 21 couldn't have been nothing there because they were all 22 over the place; in everybody's place, it wasn't only my 23 place they searched thoroughly. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Thank you. Okay. Moving 25 now to the conversation that I described earlier, Officer
171 Bouwman noted that -- or reported that on November 17th, 2 1994 at 11:55 hours, so that's five to noon, he receive a 3 call from you and that you stated that people on the army 4 base were rounding up and shooting deer, not shooting at 5 MNR people as alleged. 6 He notes that you indicated that if 7 Officer Bouwman wanted to talk to the people occupying 8 the camp, he should come to the community hall on a 9 Saturday afternoon. He reported that you also stated 10 that you feel other people on the Army Base -- or, other 11 people are stealing cars and dropping them off on the 12 Army Base to make their people look bad. 13 Now, I'm going to ask you a couple of 14 questions a bout -- about those notes. Do you recall 15 people on the Army Base rounding and shooting deer? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: At that time we, you know, we always 19 have that deer call so we didn't need to round up deer. 20 Q: Where was the deer call? 21 A: I sure wouldn't ask -- I sure 22 wouldn't ask a police person to go and round up a deer or 23 three (3) deers. 24 Q: Okay. If I could ask you where's the 25 deer call that you referred to?
181 A: At the Pinery. 2 Q: At the Pinery? At the Pinery Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Do you recall having this 5 conversation with Officer Bouwman? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Okay. We have heard evidence from 10 other people at the Army Camp that they did hunt deer 11 while they were occupying during this period. 12 Did you -- were you aware of that hunting 13 activity? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I wasn't all over the place. The men 17 were probably aware of it. But, I -- I wasn't aware of 18 anybody hunting deer in the Army Camp, but I know they 19 were hunting deer off the camp -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- like in the Pinery. 22 Q: All right. And do you recall having 23 this conversation as I've recounted it to you, with 24 Officer Bouwman? 25 A: No.
191 Q: No? 2 A: No. There's no way I had that 3 conversation with him -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- regarding firearms or -- or deer. 6 Q: And do you recall -- 7 A: And I -- and I wouldn't say that they 8 were firing at the -- the -- what was it I was -- 9 Q: MNR, which is short for Ministry of 10 Natural of Resources. 11 A: No, there's no way I would say that 12 to them. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Why would I say such a -- 15 Q: Actually, what he noted is that you 16 said people were not shooting at MNR officials, but 17 rather that they were shooting at deer. 18 A: Not to my knowledge. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall inviting Officer 20 Bouwman at any point to attend a meeting on Saturday 21 afternoon at the community hall at the -- at the Army 22 Camp? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: No? Okay. And -- 25 A: Because we. as a rule, we never
201 invited any police officers into the Army Camp, but we 2 did speak to them outside of the gate. 3 Q: We have heard testimony from other 4 witnesses that some officers did attend meetings at the 5 Army Camp at the community -- 6 A: I thought it was off the Army Camp. 7 Q: That's -- 8 A: I thought they went other -- other 9 places other than the Army Camp; I -- I do know that. 10 They had meetings elsewhere, but not at the Army Camp, to 11 my -- this is to what I know, but they could have. I 12 know -- I wasn't aware of everything that went on there. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I wasn't there all the time. 15 Q: All right. And as to his observation 16 that you said that you felt other people were stealing 17 cars and dropping them off on the Army Base to make their 18 people look bad, do you recall having concerns about 19 stolen cars being dropped off at the Army Base? 20 A: Well, there was this one car that -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- and I took a whole roll of film 23 showing me that it was a white car someone brought in 24 there -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
211 A: -- and I don't know who it was. To 2 this day, I don't know who brought it there, but they -- 3 the police were right behind, almost skidding around 4 there chasing that white car and they threw belts at the 5 car, so it could have injured other people and -- or 6 whoever was driving it, but I don't even know whose car 7 it was and I still have those pictures of that. 8 Q: Okay. And when did that occur? 9 A: It was a stolen car. 10 Q: When did that occur? 11 A: Oh, I don't -- I have no idea. 12 Q: Okay. All right. All right, he 13 notes -- Officer Bouwman notes, on the second page of the 14 same document, that he attended at the community centre 15 at a meeting with Carl George, Rose and Bert Manning; 16 Bert, I -- I understand is your son, Judas George, 17 Marlene Cloud and other Natives. He says: 18 "Talked about illegal entrances, 19 criminal occurrences and background on 20 the Base. They were advised that we 21 would [by "we" he meant -- he would 22 have meant the OPP] would investigate 23 all criminal occurrences and apply the 24 law equally to everyone. He Stated 25 they would attempt to control their own
221 people." 2 First of all, do you recall that meeting 3 or do recall attending that meeting? 4 A: Well, that must have been real -- 5 very early on in our -- I do recall something like that, 6 but that was just prior to our... 7 Q: He reports that that meeting occurred 8 on November 19th, 1994. 9 A: Is that right after we went in? 10 Q: That would have been about a year and 11 a half after you went in. 12 A: No, I don't remember. But, we had 13 those meetings when we first went in. I remember all 14 kinds of meetings with -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- with the police. 17 Q: So, you have no recollection of that 18 meeting whatsoever? 19 A: No. Now that you brought it up, I 20 thought it happened way before. 21 Q: Okay. And, from what you can recall 22 -- so, you do now recall attending that meeting? 23 A: Well, I -- I might have, I'm not 24 positively sure, but -- 25 Q: And at any point -- point, do you
231 remember meeting with any OPP officers to discuss 2 criminal occurrences on the Base and how they were to be 3 policed? 4 A: Well, I might have -- I might have 5 sat in on them, but I don't recall having anything to say 6 about them. 7 Q: Okay. Okay. And moving now in the 8 same document in Page 4, Sergeant Bouwman -- Staff 9 Sergeant Bouwman advises that on My 16th, 1995, he: 10 "Called Rose Manning and advised her of 11 beach patrol. She stated they would be 12 setting up their trailers on the 13 beaches; they did last year, and did 14 not want whites or the police on their 15 land. Advised her we had the okay from 16 Carl George to use the beach. 17 Stated they would meet with Carl George 18 and get back to me." 19 Do you recall having that conversation 20 with Officer Bouwman? 21 A: Yes, I recall that meeting. 22 Q: Okay. And what did you do as a 23 result of that meeting? 24 A: Pardon? 25 Q: What did you do as a result of that
241 conversation? 2 A: Well, it was a pretty lengthy 3 conversation. Like we had -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- we did have a meeting. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And as I understand him, he wanted to 8 -- to use the -- the beach as going over to other -- on 9 the other side of the -- the Park and he didn't want to 10 bother to hitch up his trailers and -- and drive over 11 there. 12 He said he just wanted to cut across. 13 But, during the conversation, like, I listened to him and 14 -- and listened to this -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- listened to all this stuff and -- 17 and then I thought, well, you know, there's going to be a 18 lot of trouble if he starts cutting through there. He's 19 going to be watching us, too, and we wouldn't be -- you 20 know, there'd be -- somebody might say something to him 21 or something might happen and I said, No, I didn't want 22 him to do that. 23 But, I said, we have enough to -- we have 24 enough people to look after, let alone look after a 25 policeman that's going by to wherever he's going. So --
251 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- I said you can just continue to 3 hitch up your... 4 Q: We -- we have heard evidence from Mr. 5 Glenn George that his mother called him, and told him 6 that yo had called her -- 7 A: Yes, well I -- I did her call her. 8 Well, I didn't. I said when I -- when I made my -- after 9 I made my decision, I said I'll call somebody else 10 that'll -- you can talk to. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: And so I called Melva. I was looking 13 for Glenn and she -- she, in turn got a hold of Glenn and 14 he's the one that told Mr. Bouwman what we had decided 15 on. 16 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. And -- 17 A: I think he went to Carl George, as a 18 matter of fact, on the -- 19 Q: Okay -- 20 A: -- reserve and he -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- straightened all that -- all this 23 out and so -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- it --
261 Q: All right, he also -- Sergeant 2 Bouwman also reports that on May 17th, that's the next 3 day, you: 4 "Called him back to advise him they did 5 not want the cops on the beach at the 6 Army base. They will post no 7 trespassing signs." 8 By that, he means your group: 9 "Stated that Carl George has authority 10 over them and that Glenn George speaks 11 for them as their councillor." 12 Do you recall having that telephone 13 conversation with Officer Bouwman? 14 A: No, I don't, because I never, ever 15 called Officer Bouwman. I never had a phone to call him 16 and -- and -- but he might have got a -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: No, I don't recall that I had this 19 telephone conversation with him, because I did not have a 20 phone -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Nor I -- nor did I have ways of 23 contacting him. He always came -- you know, he always 24 came around and asked for someone. 25 Q: Okay. He came around to the Army
271 Camp and asked for someone? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So you don't recall having telephone 4 conversations with Officer Bouwman? 5 A: No, I never had no telephone 6 conversation with him. 7 Q: Okay. And -- 8 A: They had no phone at that time. 9 Q: All right. And were you spending -- 10 A: And my -- my house is quite a ways 11 away. I did have a telephone there but I sure wouldn't 12 be calling him because I was at the Camp. 13 Q: Okay. And I understand that during 14 this period, you had taken on the role of spokesperson 15 for the people living at the army camp? 16 A: At that time. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Right. And in that 18 capacity -- 19 A: No. It was before then. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I didn't -- I didn't take it on; 22 somebody just asked me to do it. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And because nobody else wanted to 25 talk to the media.
281 Q: Right. 2 A: And so I was asked. I -- I didn't 3 take on the -- I didn't take it on myself. 4 Q: But you accepted that task -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- when it was asked of you? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: Okay. And in that capacity did you 9 also act as an intermediary or a spokesperson with any 10 police forces, with the police? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Well I did if they were around. But 14 I didn't go out of my way to look for a policeman to talk 15 with and to ask, you know, to ask for anything or... 16 Q: Okay. And so would you have any 17 explanation for Officer Bouwman making these notes and 18 recounting these telephone conversations as -- with you 19 having called him? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Knowing him, maybe he just scribbled 23 them out to say well I -- I done this today. 24 Q: Okay. And also during this period, 25 this is I would say in 1994 and 1995, prior to your entry
291 in -- before you and your people moved into the built-up 2 area, can you describe the -- the leadership -- who was 3 taking on a leadership role at the Army Camp? 4 Actually if I could revise that from 1993 5 until 1995. When you went into the Army Camp until 1995 6 when you went into the built-up area, what was the 7 leadership structure like there? 8 A: Well, I can't say we had -- well we 9 did have a Council. 10 Q: Okay. And were you a member of that 11 Council? 12 A: I mean we did -- we did have a -- we 13 voted and I have that -- I have that paper where we 14 selected different people to act as councillors. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And we did have Carl as Chief for a 17 short time. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And -- but prior -- you said prior to 20 that? 21 Q: I said prior to your entering into 22 the built-up area some -- perhaps it would be helpful if 23 we started in 1993 when you went into the Army Camp. 24 A: Well I went into the Army Camp with 25 Maynard, M.T. George, as -- he want, you know, him and
301 Janet decided when we were to go in. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: And I took my marching orders from 4 them. 5 Q: Okay. And you also mentioned that 6 Carl George was acting as chief at that time? 7 A: No, he wasn't -- not at -- not when 8 we went in. 9 Q: Okay. But shortly after -- 10 A: But he was with Maynard when -- when 11 they gathered all the papers for him to -- for -- the 12 eviction notices. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: He -- he was with them to do all this 15 and we went in legally. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. And on what do you base 17 your belief that you went in legally, or your -- your 18 statement that you went in legally? 19 A: Because -- because Maynard said so 20 and he said he had done all the -- well we done all this 21 research and he said he finally found the loophole to get 22 in there. And so we were going in and no one would 23 bother us; no one couldn't kick us out of there. And -- 24 and he was -- it was all to be done in a -- in a peaceful 25 manner and we wouldn't be using any guns or any -- any
311 form of harassment. 2 We would just go in -- in and sit in -- in 3 just the way we -- we were forced out the first time. 4 Like, they just went in and praying and -- and they -- 5 and Janet still is a Christian person and she still prays 6 about everything and that's the -- the way we went in. 7 Q: Okay. And -- and again, with respect 8 to the leadership at the time, you -- you described 9 yourself as taking orders from Maynard T. George and you 10 also mentioned that Carl George, shortly after, took on 11 the position of Chief. 12 Did you, yourself, take on a position as a 13 councillor? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: I wasn't a councillor. I didn't 17 apply -- I didn't put my name -- I was nominated to be a 18 councillor. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I was too old to be a councillor. 21 Q: All right. And -- 22 A: But I supported it. I was -- I was 23 there when the whole thing went on. I was in that hall 24 and Carl's mother was there, so we were both there to 25 make sure everything was -- was done in decency and in
321 order. 2 Q: Okay. And, were you regarded by 3 others at that time as an Elder? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: Okay. Can you describe the role -- 6 A: And it didn't matter to me, I 7 wasn't there to be a Elder or to be a -- a leader, to be 8 anything. I was there to do a job and that's what I was 9 in there for. 10 And I done my job to the best of my 11 ability and that was to get our land back and get 12 recognized that they should be dealing with this problem 13 now instead of another fifty (50) years and that is -- 14 was the reason I went in there. 15 Q: And did people come to you for advice 16 about what they should do? 17 A: Why should they come to me for 18 advice, they got their own way of thinking. But I did 19 advise people on -- if they did ask me. Like... 20 Q: Okay. You -- you -- 21 A: I'm -- I'm not a -- I wasn't a leader 22 there. 23 Q: All right. And you described 24 earlier, an election of councillors at Stoney Point, how 25 long did that -- to the best of your recollection, how
331 long did that council continue to function in a decision- 2 making capacity after -- after it was elected? 3 A: How long? 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: I don't know, I think it just -- 6 everybody just -- I really don't know because I never 7 went to a councillor. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: I know Glenn -- Glenn got the most 10 votes even out -- out on Carl as Chief. Like, he could 11 have went for a Chief and I was just, You got more votes 12 than anybody, so I think... 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And we understand that 14 these elections, from other witnesses, these elections 15 took place in 1993. Do you recall them happening during 16 that timeframe? 17 A: Time stood still for me. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Just things happen and I just took 22 one (1) day at a time. 23 Q: Okay. I'm going to move now, Mrs. 24 Manning -- Oh, first of all, I have a question about -- 25 during the time that you were occupying the Army Base, I
341 understand that -- or we understand that people would 2 visit from other First Nations; do you recall that 3 occurring? 4 A: Yes, they -- they did visit. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: Like, we went in there and there was 7 supporters come from different reserves. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And they would visit different -- 10 their relatives or they would come bring in and like, you 11 -- you have to understand, we never had nothing -- no 12 ways -- no means of supporting ourselves, some of -- some 13 of them -- some of us. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: But, my -- but, my boys had to 16 continue to work and so they were our, you know, support 17 -- supported us through bringing our food in. And the 18 people that came to visit, they -- they brought in food 19 and -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- blankets and different things. 22 They were of great support, because we never had nothing, 23 but they never had no -- we were living there with 24 nothing and -- except for -- for the donations that came 25 in.
351 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: So, this is another reason why people 3 were there. 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall two (2) men 5 by the name of Russ or Royal Russ Jewel and Les Jewel 6 visiting the Army camp? 7 A: Oh, yes, they lived there for quite a 8 while. 9 Q: All right. And do you know why they 10 had initially come to live at the Army Camp or to visit? 11 A: Well, I think they were friends of 12 Glen's -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- and I, myself knew their father -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- because he was a preacher and he 17 used to come around preaching around -- well, he used to 18 preach at my daughter's place at one -- one time. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And I got to know him there, and -- 21 but he -- he never came to the camp with the -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 Q: -- father. But -- 24 A: To your knowledge, did -- did the 25 Jewel brothers, I understand they were brothers, did they
361 play any role in decision making at the camp during the 2 time they were there? 3 A: Not to my knowledge. They didn't -- 4 they didn't give me any orders. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: They might have someone else, but not 7 -- not myself. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Okay. Moving now to -- and one final 12 question about -- do you recall the arrival of -- 13 actually, I'll move on to another topic area right now. 14 We understand that on July 29th of 1995, a 15 number of people including yourself, moved into the 16 built-up area of the Army Camp. 17 Can you describe the planning that 18 occurred, prioring -- prior to your entering the built-up 19 area of the Army camp? 20 A: The planning? 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Well, we didn't have -- we didn't -- 23 actually, we didn't -- we were quite -- we were quite 24 happy to be where we were. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
371 A: And -- 2 Q: By that, you mean at -- in the 3 ranges? 4 A: In the -- on the range. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: And this -- I think it was the 7 Saturday, no, it was the Friday evening, we were having a 8 picnic of sorts in front of Clifford -- not Clifford, 9 Pearl George's cabin, in the -- where the school used to 10 be and the church. 11 So, we were having a -- we were having a 12 picnic there and I came from my own -- from my place 13 where I used to live. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And so as we were sitting there, this 16 media person from the Globe and Mail showed up -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. How did you know he was 18 from the Globe and Mail? 19 A: He said so. He said, I'm from the 20 Globe and Mail, and he thought we should give him -- give 21 him a story. 22 Q: Can you recall his name? 23 A: No, I didn't -- I can't. 24 Q: And what happened next? 25 A: Well, because I wouldn't give him a
381 story he got upset. Well, I was upset because he was 2 ruining our picnic and you know, when you like to have a 3 good time and not worry about media or any -- or the DND 4 people, the soldiers or whoever it was or the police. 5 We were just having a great time and he 6 came along and so I kind of maybe said some things I 7 shouldn't have said like, No, I'm not giving you a story, 8 why should I? He said, I'm from the Globe and Mail. I 9 said, So. 10 And he said this is a real important 11 paper, you know, it's a real good paper. You'll get a 12 lot of coverage. But this guy, he was -- I can describe 13 him. He was a tall slim man, he looked like more like a 14 policeman or a soldier. He was -- he stood straight and 15 tall and he had grey hair, well dressed, and he seemed 16 like he was a really important person. 17 Like -- and I just didn't like his 18 attitude about -- just about how he asked us about a 19 story. 20 Q: Okay. And -- 21 A: Then when I talked -- do you want me 22 to answer -- answer -- 23 Q: Yeah, please continue, Mrs. Manning. 24 A: Okay. So, now see I lost my train of 25 thought when you're getting -- when you're interfering
391 with my answer. So, now I got to think about it. 2 So, he said -- he got upset too. Which, 3 you know, if you're upset and you're going to get 4 somebody else upset. So, when -- when I got upset, I -- 5 I made him upset. So, he said, So what are you going to 6 do on -- come Monday when the special police move in? 7 And I said, Oh, the special police are 8 moving in? He said, Yes they are and, you know, what are 9 you going to do then, you know. He was kind of like -- I 10 said, Oh well we'll deal with it when -- when Monday 11 comes I guess. 12 And I said, Well we'll see you. And he 13 left. And as soon as he -- as soon as he left we said, 14 Well I guess we'll have to go in sooner than we had 15 expected to go in. I said, We'll have to go in on 16 Saturday. 17 And the reason I remember that, I said, 18 We'll go in at 12:30 because I have to do my yard-sailing 19 first. I have a -- I have a booth at the flea market 20 then. I had it then and I still do. And my yard-sailing 21 -- my job came first. That's the way I was helping with 22 things I was doing. 23 And we said -- we planned it then. It was 24 that quick. We were, one minute we were laughing and 25 carefree and everything, the next minute we were planning
401 to go into the built-up area. So, I said, We'll go in at 2 12:30 because everybody will have had their lunch and 3 they won't even expect us. They'll be sitting back -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- and patting their bellies and 6 saying, What a good meal we just had. So we said okay. 7 So, we hurried around and that was Maynard and Jan and -- 8 Maynard wasn't there but we got a hold of people that 9 went -- went in with us the first time. 10 Q: If I could just ask you -- I am sorry 11 to interrupt, Mrs. Manning, but just to go back to your 12 conversation with -- that you described with the man from 13 the Globe and Mail. 14 When he said, "Special Police moving in", 15 did you take that to mean special police moving into the 16 army camp -- 17 A: The built-up area. 18 Q: -- to the built-up area? And for 19 what purpose did you understand they would be doing that? 20 A: Well, I never asked them any 21 questions. I didn't want to give them a story and I'm 22 sure he wasn't going to give me any. He just said, 23 Special police. And I just figured, well, the police 24 would just slowly oust us out of there -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
411 A: -- if they came. And, like, they 2 would be right beside us. It was hard to live with Army 3 personnel when they were there, because they were 4 continually flying overhead with their helicopters -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- or shooting around there and... 7 Q: Did you understand that the special 8 police would be moving in specifically to deal with -- 9 A: Monday they were supposed to be in 10 there on Monday -- 11 Q: If I -- 12 A: -- Sunday or Monday. 13 Q: If I could finish the question, I'm 14 sorry. 15 A: Sure, okay. Sorry. 16 Q: And did you take -- did you believe 17 that the Special -- as a result of this conversation, did 18 you believe the Special Police would be moving in 19 specifically to deal with the occupiers or that they 20 would be moving in for some other purpose? Or did you 21 have a belief about that? 22 A: What do you think? Why would they 23 move in next to us? 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: Were they there to see that no harm
421 came to us? 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Or why would they be moving in next 4 to us? 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: They were moving in next to us 7 because they wanted to oust us out of there. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: That's the only reason that I... 10 Q: Okay. So, you had described the -- 11 you had begun to describe when I interrupted you, the 12 planning that went into moving into the built-up area 13 involving Maynard T. George and Janet Cloud, I believe? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And Nellie Rogers and there was just 17 a few of us. There wasn't too many men, there was just 18 mostly women and children. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And Melva and her family, like, Melva 21 and Marcia, Glenn and Bert and Erica... 22 Q: By Melva you mean Melva George; 23 Marcia, you mean Marcia -- 24 A: George, yes. 25 Q: Manning, sorry, Simon. And Bert, you
431 mean Bert Manning? 2 A: Marcia Simon -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- was her -- her name. 5 Q: That's right. 6 A: And, yes, we had got in contact with 7 them and they said, Sure, we'll help you and there wasn't 8 too many cars, there was mostly... 9 Q: Okay. So, you -- you had mentioned 10 earlier that you wanted to go yard-sailing prior to 11 going -- 12 A: I did go. I said, I'm going -- I'm 13 not -- I'm not going into -- in there until I go yard 14 sailing -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- because I said, Right after I go 17 yard sailing we'll go in and everybody should be gathered 18 here and I said, You -- you call whoever you want -- you 19 need to call to come and help us and so... 20 Q: So, what happened when you got back 21 from yard-sailing? 22 A: We went directly to the beach and met 23 there. 24 Q: Okay. About, roughly, how many 25 people met there, if you can recall?
441 A: You know, I don't really know. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: There was -- when you see them 4 running around, there's quite a -- quite a few, but they 5 were mostly children. They were my -- well, there were 6 some of my children, but mostly all my grandchildren. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And they were on the -- I'm getting 9 ahead of myself here -- and so we gathered at the beach, 10 all the people that was going to participate and there 11 was people there. 12 I said, We're going into the Army -- Army 13 barracks and I said, Whoever wants to go, you have to -- 14 you have -- you either have to stay or you can go home to 15 Kettle Point. And one (1) guy, he said, you know, he was 16 -- he was such a staunch Stoney Pointer, I'll never -- 17 I'll help you right until the end and he said, Oh, gosh, 18 I got fines on me, I got something on me, he says, and he 19 jumps into his car had he -- he says, I got to load my 20 boat up and -- and he loaded his boat on his little 21 trailer and it was kind of bumpy. 22 And the way you see this guy going and his 23 old trailer's just shaking the old boat. You thought it 24 was going to fall off his trailer; that's how fast he -- 25 he left.
451 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: He wasn't going to have nothing to do 3 with it whatsoever. 4 Q: And who was that? 5 A: I don't think I should say his name. 6 He was just a young fellow and he didn't want to get 7 involved with -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- going in to the -- he said, I 10 don't want to go there, I'm not going to get hurt or 11 anything. He said, I'm going home and I said, well if 12 you go home, I don't want you to tell nobody for at least 13 an hour. 14 I said, Give us an hour and don't tell a 15 soul. He said, I can do that. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And so -- so there's other people I 18 left, but I couldn't remember him, because of this -- how 19 fast he went in this old boneshaker and making a heck of 20 a racket. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: So we just kind of had a quick plan 23 there, as to who was going to go in the cars and who was 24 going to take the back and who was going to take the 25 side.
461 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And I -- I wasn't the only one that 3 was planning that. I was -- but I was there. 4 Q: Okay, and who else was planning that 5 with you? 6 A: All different people that were there. 7 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 8 A: I think Glenn, he -- he took the -- 9 he come round the back, there was Glenn and -- and Marcia 10 and her mother and my son Bert and -- and his woman. 11 They -- they come around the back on the Moses Hill ways- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: And -- and the -- the bus went in on 14 the side and it was full of children and a lot of my 15 grandchildren. 16 Q: And if we could just -- 17 A: And there was adults. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I was the first -- I was in the first 20 car and the next car was my car. It was full of people 21 and I think it was Janet's car with all her people and 22 Nellie -- Nellie -- Nellie Cloud, I think her name was -- 23 Q: Nellie Rogers? 24 A: Yes, Nellie Rogers. Well, her name 25 used to be Cloud.
471 Q: Okay. 2 A: So, and it was all just the older -- 3 older people, like maybe the youngest one was Bruce. He 4 -- Bruce and Maynard. 5 Q: Okay, and did the -- if you can turn 6 to Exhibit P-40 on the screen behind you and with your 7 pointer, point out the route that you took as you entered 8 the built up area or entered the -- left the beach. 9 A: I don't under -- I don't understand 10 your map here. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Now, which is the -- I wonder how you 13 turn -- now, that's not the one I -- that's my own -- 14 don't know how to turn on. 15 Okay, is that it? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And is this the -- the beach? 18 Q: Yes, the -- the lake is up on that 19 map. 20 A: This is -- this is the -- the beach 21 itself; right in here? 22 Q: Hmm hmm, yes, well -- 23 A: And this here -- oh... 24 Q: My Friend has indicated where the 25 beach is the line going across the top of the map on
481 Exhibit P-40. 2 A: Oh, right up there? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: That's the beach? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: And that's the water beyond? 7 Q: That's right. 8 A: So, okay then, there's this road, so 9 we were about in here, this kind of comes in. Is this -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Around in here and we came down the - 12 Q: Okay. and for the record, you are 13 pointing out -- 14 A: -- be on the Matheson -- 15 Q: -- the -- 16 A: -- is this Matheson Drive? 17 Q: That's right, at -- 18 A: Okay, well we came down -- 19 Q: -- the -- 20 A: -- Matheson Drive -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- and right down to the -- 23 Q: Okay, and for the record you're 24 indicating -- 25 A: Right to the -- is this the Army camp
491 -- the built up area? 2 Q: That's right. 3 A: And the -- what-you-call-it, should 4 be right about in there. 5 Q: And by what-you-call-it, do you 6 mean -- 7 A: The gate. 8 Q: The gate? 9 A: The gate itself where they -- where 10 there was people manning the gate. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: That's -- that's where I went into is 13 in that area there. 14 Q: Okay. And did you -- did -- and what 15 was the order of the vehicles that proceeded? 16 A: Well, I came in with my son Bruce. 17 Q: Okay. And -- and were you ahead of 18 the -- the other vehicles or? 19 A: Yes, we were the first vehicle in and 20 we were the first people to go in and say like -- we went 21 into this -- that little -- that little guard shack, I 22 guess they called it. 23 Q: Okay. And we understand from other 24 witnesses or some other witnesses have testified that the 25 school bus actually went in first.
501 But your recollection is that your cars 2 went in first? 3 A: No. My car -- our car went in first. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And I -- I know it did because we 6 were watching that bus because it had our grandchil -- it 7 had my grandchildren in it. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And I went in -- I was in -- I was 10 there where the, you know, I was right there with those - 11 - they were watching our kids, and my kids -- I think the 12 world of my kids and -- but they wanted to be there too. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. So -- 14 A: And my car was the next car. Like I 15 road in Bruce's car and my next car was my own car which 16 was also full. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: And -- and when we stopped I think 19 Bruce lifted the gate -- no, I lifted the gate and Bruce 20 and Maynard, he must have jumped out of his car and they 21 went in together to serve -- 22 Q: Into the guard shack? 23 A: -- to serve the eviction notice. And 24 I have a picture of that on -- on that tape I showed 25 you --
511 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- of them serving those papers to 3 the people at the gate. 4 Q: Yeah. I'm sorry, I don't recall 5 that. 6 A: You don't recall that? Well, I have 7 that tape and I showed it to you. Maybe you weren't -- 8 you were thinking how you were going to get a story from 9 me. So you didn't -- you weren't really paying attention 10 to that. 11 But I do have that tape with that -- with 12 him taking this picture. 13 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 14 A: Oh. Then the rest -- the rest of the 15 cars all went in while they were talking to the people in 16 that main gate. And they went right for the -- for the 17 bus. 18 Q: Okay. And so you were at the -- 19 A: Well, I -- I was at the main gate 20 still but the rest of the people went in and Nellie 21 Rogers, she drove back. She said, Rose, they're fighting 22 with our kids. So I jumped in with her and by the time I 23 got there it was pretty well kind of over with. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And so what did you 25 do? You proceeded then to -- to what area of the built-
521 up area? 2 A: Well, you know, when I -- when I went 3 out there I seen those kids. They were all pepper 4 sprayed and -- and there was a big hullabuloo about 5 getting the kids out. Somebody opened the back gate of 6 the -- no, not the back gate -- the back door to get all 7 the children out. 8 And the guy who was driving, he was all -- 9 he was all pepper sprayed and I think somebody drove him 10 to the beach real quick to -- to, you know, to wash him 11 all off and -- 12 Q: Okay. And who -- who was that that 13 was -- you said that the young man that was driving the 14 bus? 15 A: I think it was Harley. I'm not too 16 sure. I know it was one of the George boys and -- 17 Q: And where was this in the built-up 18 area? 19 A: It was right in front of the drill 20 hall. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And I know -- I know my -- my 23 grandchild got pepper sprayed too and he was just a 24 little fellow at that time and he said, well I got 25 sprayed accidentally he said. He didn't want to say.
531 Q: Okay. You mentioned your grandchild 2 and he had been -- he was on the bus? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And how old was he at the time? 5 A: I don't really know, he was around 6 six (6) years old, I think. He was just a little -- he 7 was the smallest one there. 8 Q: Okay. And -- 9 A: But there was quite a few kids in 10 that bus and there was a few adults in there; one (1) 11 adult for sure, I know. 12 Q: Okay. You said earlier that things 13 had pretty much settled down by the time you arrived? 14 A: Yeah, well, there were some -- there 15 were some other people there that was -- I made sure that 16 everything went the way it was supposed to. 17 Q: And were those military people or 18 who... 19 A: No, the military people weren't 20 helping us by no means. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: They were trying to detain us or get 23 us out of there and they were trying to attack our -- our 24 children and -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
541 A: -- and -- by using pepper spray on 2 them and -- and one (1) of the guys kicked that can out 3 of this guy's hand and there was -- somebody took up some 4 old brooms that were close by and -- and one (1) of my -- 5 one (1) of my daughters, she said, Just drop the brooms 6 and never mind using anything --don't -- and she told 7 them to drop the brooms; they just dropped the brooms 8 wherever. 9 Q: There were still -- how many military 10 personnel were present when you arrive? 11 A: Well, the guy that was in charge, he 12 went with -- he went back with -- that Rob Smith? 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: He went back with us and he -- he 15 told them guys to knock it off and -- and I think that's 16 what he told them and he said, You go back to -- to where 17 you were -- you were -- before this happened. 18 Q: Okay, and who was he talking to? 19 A: To his -- to the -- his fellow 20 officers. 21 Q: Okay, and when you said he went back 22 with you, when -- 23 A: Like, he came from the built-up area 24 -- I mean, from that little shack where I think he lived 25 around close to there.
551 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And, you know, when this took place 3 they were coming from different places, so he went in and 4 told them they couldn't do that. 5 Q: And, so and how many military 6 personnel were there that he was addressing at the time, 7 if you can recall? 8 A: Oh, gee, it looked like a busload, 9 but they were just some of us too -- they were most of 10 us, but I -- I couldn't tell you many; I didn't stop to 11 count. You know when something's going on, you don't -- 12 you don't look back and say, Well, how many of them are 13 they? 14 You know, I didn't even -- I just know 15 that they weren't really doing anything too much; they 16 weren't using their fists or anything or -- all they were 17 using was that old pepper spray, but they were trying to 18 scare the kids, too. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And I know that there was somebody 21 that said that somebody came out of the mess hall and 22 that was -- that wasn't the way the story went either, 23 they didn't go in there and start a machine up and -- and 24 ram the doors with it. 25 Q: Okay. Not when you were present?
561 A: I was present. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I was present at the time. They put 4 the door up and they brought that machine out to scare 5 the -- to scare the guys away from the kids. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: And -- 8 Q: - what -- what was that machine? 9 What kind of machine was it? 10 A: Forklift. 11 Q: Okay. And it was being driven by 12 military personnel? 13 A: No, I said it -- it was brought out 14 of the -- of this place to -- to -- to kind of scare them 15 so they wouldn't bother -- you know, to -- just so -- 16 instead of going after the little kids, then they would 17 have somebody else to -- to chase around. They were kind 18 of detaining them in a roundabout way. 19 Q: Okay, so, that was driven by a member 20 of your group of the -- of the occupiers? 21 A: Yes, and they didn't go through any 22 doors to -- to -- like they said they did. The door was 23 -- was open. They opened the door and drove it out and 24 just kind of drove it round and when -- when the Rob 25 Smith told everybody he was head man in charge...
571 Q: And can you recall who was driving 2 the fork lift? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right, and -- 5 A: There was so many people there, so 6 many -- everybody was around -- surround -- everybody was 7 -- the people like came in, like -- like they were coming 8 from all over there now, all gathered round in front of 9 the drill hall and -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- this Rob Smith said, well, we'll 12 have to have a meeting, so we went to the -- to the 13 church. 14 Q: Okay. And did you on -- later that 15 day, did you attend meetings with members of the 16 military? 17 A: Yes, we did. 18 Q: Okay, and what took place at those 19 meetings? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Well, they just asked us to gather 24 round at the church. They'd used the church and there 25 wasn't any water there, so they -- for bathroom use, so -
581 - so they had someone come in and -- and they put water 2 and -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- different -- different places so 5 you can use the bathrooms and they brought us water out 6 to drink and they set up tables and chairs and -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- and while I was in there, I was 9 kind of admired this cross -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- and I picked this cross up and it 12 was a huge cross. It was a nice cross and, you know, I 13 was holding that cross while -- while we were having the 14 meetings and I wasn't doing all the talking -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- I was just sat there, to kind of 17 on the side, and I was hanging on to that cross, and they 18 kept watching me with that cross. 19 Q: Hmm hmm, okay, and -- 20 A: And finally, you know, at the end of 21 the meeting they asked me for that cross. I said, 22 there's no way you're getting my cross. I already laid 23 claim to -- claim to this cross -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: And I figured then they -- they, for
591 some reason, they didn't want to do anything when -- when 2 I was hanging on to that cross and I figured, well, later 3 on I might need that cross, because it seemed to keep 4 them calm for some reason. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: And I left it behind. 7 Q: Okay, and at any point during these 8 meetings were you told to leave the built-up area? 9 A: No, we were never told to leave. 10 They just -- they handed over the keys and told us how to 11 maintain our -- the buildings. 12 They said, we have to keep up the 13 buildings and we were -- that they would be leaving. 14 Q: Okay. And -- 15 A: And they introduced us to the 16 caretakers. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: They were called in -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Prior to that the media came, and 21 everybody knew we were in -- we were in -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- in the barracks. And, you know, 24 it was an awful lot -- it was real dusty. I said -- 25 always said, they came in when the dust settled, 'cause
601 we made -- the dust is just -- everybody's all had -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- real dusty feet and it was really 4 dusty. So you could say that it was a lot of people came 5 after the dust settled, which was a -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- wasn't just a saying, it was how 8 it happened, because... 9 Q: Right, and what did you do for the -- 10 for the rest of that day, other than have meetings with 11 the military? 12 Did you enter into any of the buildings in 13 the built-up area? 14 A: Yes, we went to the -- we went to the 15 -- to the mess hall, to the kitchen -- the main kitchen, 16 and that main kitchen was the only one that was -- that 17 was really in use -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: All the other kitchens seem to be run 20 down and not -- not in use. There was only the main 21 kitchen and -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- the freezers, they were right full 24 of -- full of meat and chicken and fish and whatever you 25 want -- steaks. Oh, those guys they ate a lot of it.
611 So, we went there and some of the women started cooking. 2 And for the first time we had a gourmet 3 meal after -- that same evening. 4 Q: And did you move into a building 5 yourself or take up residence in the built-up area? 6 A: Well, I stayed with Melva for a 7 while. 8 Q: Okay. That's Melva George? 9 A: And Judas said, Well I have a -- I 10 have a place for you to stay so... 11 Q: And by Judas you mean Roderick 12 George? Just for the record. 13 A: What's his name? 14 Q: Roderick George? 15 A: Roderick. 16 Q: Yeah. Who's referred to as Judas 17 commonly, often. 18 A: Oh, okay. Well yes, it was . So, I 19 moved in there because I had a lot of kids. 20 Q: Yeah. Okay. And can you -- 21 A: By -- by kids, I mean my 22 grandchildren. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And can you identify on the 24 map behind you what building you moved into? The one you 25 were discussing that Mr. George had identified for you?
621 Roderick George or Judas. 2 A: I don't know. Is this the main gate? 3 Q: No. The main gate is actually in the 4 lower lefthand corner, or on the lefthand side there. 5 A: And that's the parade square is it? 6 Q: That's right. 7 A: Okay. Well, it must have been right 8 in here. That was the hospital so it was right in this - 9 - that's the hospital here? 10 Q: Yes. My Friend has pointed out the 11 hospital for you. Was it that building or -- 12 A: Well, I didn't move into the 13 hospital. I moved into that -- there was a -- I guess 14 right in here there was two (2) apartments where the pers 15 -- Army personnel stayed. Somewhere around in -- maybe 16 in here. 17 Q: Okay. And -- 18 A: Maybe right here. I'm not just sure 19 because it was part -- there's the hospital, and this was 20 -- oh, there's a road here. It must be right in here 21 then. 22 Q: All right. And for the record -- 23 A: Right there. 24 Q: -- you're indicating -- I can't see 25 the building number right there. But, there's a paper
631 map in front of you and you may be able to see what 2 building number you're indicating. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: That is building number 48 on Exhibit 7 P-41. 8 Okay. And you moved into that building 9 and took up residence? 10 A: Pardon? 11 Q: You -- you moved into that building 12 and took up residence? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did you move belongings into the 15 building? 16 A: A few. There was already a lot of 17 things in there. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. A lot of things -- 19 A: There was a washer and dryer and -- 20 and different things in there that the Army left behind. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: And so the things we needed we 23 acquired afterwards. 24 Q: Okay. All right. And we have heard 25 testimony from other witnesses that -- that at Kettle
641 Point -- the Kettle Point Chief and Council a few days 2 after you moved into the built-up area, so on August 3rd, 3 1995 attempted to deliver a letter or a stack of letters 4 to the people at the Army Camp. 5 We've also heard testimony that you were 6 present when that delivery attempt was made; do you 7 recall that? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: It was -- it was like this binder. 11 It was -- it was just all tied up and it wasn't a letter 12 or -- it was, I think, maybe notices to be handed out. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But -- 15 Q: Who delivered, or attempted to 16 deliver it? 17 A: It was -- it was -- everybody said it 18 was the chief. It was not the chief, because I was out 19 there and he didn't -- he wasn't the one that delivered 20 them, it was a councillor. 21 Q: Okay. And can you recall which 22 councillor? 23 A: And he --he threw them out of the 24 car, like it's a cab part -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
651 A: -- and somebody else grabbed them and 2 threw them back into the truck. So, I never knew what 3 they said or -- because I didn't read any of them. 4 Q: Just to go back, do you recall which 5 councillor attempted to deliver the letters? 6 A: No, I don't, because it was -- he was 7 just on Council a short time -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: He wasn't there for a --he isn't 10 there now or he wasn't there very long. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And, see, I didn't live in Kettle 13 Point -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- and there's a lot of people I 16 didn't know at the time in Kettle Point because I came 17 from Watford area. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: And I never -- I didn't know who the 20 Chief and Council -- I knew them, but I don't -- I didn't 21 know everybody and I still don't know everybody that 22 lives there, even though I've lived there for a while. 23 I'm all constantly asking, Who was that, 24 and -- 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall where this
661 incident took place, the attempted delivery? 2 A: At the main gate. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And there was a lot of kids around 5 there and I just happened to be hanging about there -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And just thinking, and it was -- it 8 was just -- it was just something that happened and I 9 guess they were -- they were delivered to the -- to the 10 gate, whoever's looking after the gate. I know I wasn't 11 looking after it. 12 Q: Okay. And you mentioned that 13 somebody threw the stack of letters into the back of that 14 councillor's truck? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall who that was that 17 did that? 18 A: It could have been anyone of the -- 19 but there was quite a few young fellows around. 20 Q: Right. And did you -- did you have 21 any conversation with the councillor beyond -- beyond the 22 one that you've described? 23 A: I didn't have any conversation with 24 him. 25 Q: Okay.
671 A: He just said, here's some mail for 2 you or something -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- like that, and I didn't say, Oh, 5 what's that, I'll take it, or nothing. It wasn't -- it 6 happened so fast, that I -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- I didn't speak to him. He didn't 9 -- that's about all he said was he was delivering -- 10 delivering some mail, so... 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And I just -- I think the case has 13 done out of it. It's just a spur of the moment thing, 14 like, I don't see -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- any big deal in it. 17 Q: Okay. And round about this time, 18 actually it was a couple of days earlier on August 1st, 19 1995, Staff Sergeant Bouwman again, his notes refer to 20 some -- a meeting he had. 21 This is -- for the record, it's at Tab 3 22 of the Brief of Documents and it's Document Number 23 2003357. And given our references to it so far, we 24 should probably make this an exhibit. 25
681 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And if we could get the next exhibit, 4 yeah? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-332, your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 332. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-332: Document 2003357 statement of 9 Staff Sergeant K. Bouwman, 10 November 17/'94 11:55 hours 11 to August 05/'95, 10:05 12 hours, re: contacts with 13 people living on CFB 14 Ipperwash 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: And for the record, we are only 18 making the first nineteen (19) pages of that document an 19 exhibit. 20 Okay. Staff Sergeant Bouwman describes, 21 and I'll just read it for you, Mrs. Manning. This is at 22 Page 15: 23 "Meeting at CFB main gate, present with 24 Sergeant Wright and Speck. Rose 25 Manning and Glenn George represent
691 First Nations; also Terry George. 2 Talked about fatal MVA." 3 By that I take it -- 4 A: Fatal what? 5 Q: Fatal MVA. I take that to mean, 6 motor vehicle accident. 7 "Glenn George agreed MVA could have 8 been prevented." 9 And then further on, he -- he reports that 10 you stated, it says: 11 "Rose Manning stated the road and the 12 Park was theirs and was never given -- 13 and was never given up by them." 14 A: Excuse me, could I ask you who's the 15 -- who -- where the -- the accident happened or... 16 Q: He doesn't describe that in his -- in 17 his notes, but we have heard from other witnesses 18 including Glenn George that an accident occurred in the - 19 - on the road approaching Army Camp Road approaching 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park some days earlier at the -- at 21 the end of Matheson the night before. 22 A: Oh, I see. Okay, I -- I knew -- I 23 know the people, yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Well, I didn't know the -- I didn't
701 know the -- the -- I didn't know the people, but since 2 then I met this man's wife. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: I met her in London, this Mandawoub, 5 I think they call him. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: I met his wife in -- in London while 8 she was still alive. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: But -- and he was with some Leslie 11 girl, I -- I think. 12 Q: Okay. And you were -- 13 A: And -- 14 Q: You were aware of the -- the motor 15 vehicle accident occurring? 16 A: Yes, I was, because they came in and 17 because -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: -- I guess they knew Bert -- Bert 20 wasn't -- he knew Bert from a long time back and he also 21 knew Glenn. 22 Q: Okay. And do you recall this meeting 23 with Staff Sergeant Bouwman taking place to discuss this? 24 He describes it as occurring at -- at the 25 main gate with a couple of other officers, Wright and
711 Speck, you and -- 2 A: No, I don't believe I was there. 3 That might have been Bert, but I had nothing to do with 4 that. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I was -- I was nowhere around. 7 Q: If I could just continue to read 8 his -- 9 A: Sure, go ahead. 10 Q: Okay. 11 "Rose Manning stated the road and the 12 Park was theirs and was never given up 13 by them. Manning again stated the Park 14 was theirs; they never agreed to give 15 up the Park because it contained their 16 cemetery and burial ground. 17 Glenn George told Rose Manning to shut 18 up twice before she finally did, 19 advised them we would not get involved 20 in their land disputes; that was for 21 them to work out." 22 First of all, do you -- do you recall this 23 conversation taking place? 24 A: Why -- why would he tell -- tell me 25 to shut up?
721 Q: Would that be unusual for Glenn 2 George -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- to speak to you in that manner? 5 And why would that be? 6 A: Because he never -- he never, ever 7 told me to shut up. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And likewise, I -- I had enough 10 respect for him to -- to tell him to -- you know, I 11 wouldn't tell him that. 12 Q: Okay. All right. Do you recall 13 stating to Staff Sergeant Bouwman that the road and the 14 Park was yours and was never given up by -- 15 A: No, I never said that, because it was 16 under dispute and -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- well, during our research, it was 19 supposingly sold somewhere along the line and I never 20 said -- well, it -- it should belong to us anyway, but -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- I never -- I never indicated that 23 it belongs to us, where... 24 Q: Okay, and -- 25 A: But we were using it.
731 Q: So, at that time, you didn't believe 2 that the Park belonged -- belonged to you? 3 A: Well -- 4 Q: Or belonged to your group? 5 A: Well, it was -- no, not at that time. 6 Q: Okay. He also notes -- Staff 7 Sergeant Bouwman, again, on August 3rd at page 18 of the 8 same document: 9 "I met with Captain Smith." 10 I would take that to be the same Captain 11 Smith you referred to earlier. 12 A: Rob Smith? 13 Q: Yeah. 14 "Stated Rose Manning had packed up and 15 loaded up and is supposed to have left 16 CFB." 17 A: Well, I did move all my -- a lot of 18 my belongings then, but I didn't -- I wasn't aware that 19 people were -- that knew I was -- I had my daughter down 20 and she moved a lot of my belongings into my mother's 21 place. 22 Q: Okay. And why did -- 23 A: And that -- 24 Q: -- you do that? 25 A: Because I had intended to move out --
741 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- shortly, because we were -- you 3 know, I have -- I have a life, too -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- outside of the Army Camp and we 6 were pretty well there just to -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- we done everything we set out to 9 accomplish. 10 Q: So shortly after you moved into the 11 built-up area, you made plans to move up -- to move out? 12 A: Well, I moved a lot of my things, 13 yes, I did. 14 Q: And did you stay in the built-up area 15 yourself? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But, I did move a lot of my things 19 out of there -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- because -- because my mother's 22 house -- my mother's house is empty and -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and there was things that I wanted 25 to protect, like my pictures and --
751 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- documents and different things. 3 Q: Okay. And at this time were you -- 4 did you continue to function as a spokesperson with the 5 media -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: having accepted that role? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I'm wondering, Mrs. Manning, and Mr. 12 Commissioner, if this might be a good time for a break. 13 Would you like to take a break right now? 14 A: No, I'd like to go on. 15 Q: You'd like to go on? 16 A: I'm just saying -- I see you watching 17 the clock, you must be getting -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 19 we're going to have to take a break at some time this 20 morning. 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, it's a 23 question of when. If this isn't a good time, we can go 24 on a little longer, but if -- 25 THE WITNESS: No, I'm finished.
761 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Hmm hmm. Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 3 continue for a while? 4 THE WITNESS: What time is it? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 10:30. 6 THE WITNESS: 10:30? 7 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. After 9 Ms. Hensel finishes, there maybe some other lawyers, may 10 have some questions for you, and that may take some time, 11 so we're going to have to have a break at some point. 12 Would you like to have one now? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:58 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
771 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, 7 Commissioner. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: Just before we move to the events of 11 September 1995, if I could ask you one (1) final question 12 about your time at Stoney Point. 13 I understand that you and others made many 14 efforts to establish a community there. Can you tell us 15 about those efforts? 16 A: Yes. After we -- we kind of settled 17 down in Stoney Point, then in a while, we -- we had to do 18 something, not just sit around, so, we -- and if -- we 19 had a community gardens -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- community garden at the -- right 22 at the main kitchen. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: Glenn, he dissed that all up. And we 25 had individual gardens --
781 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- like anybody that wanted a garden 3 and the seeds were donated from Lifespan (phonetic) in 4 London. And we had -- we formed a baseball game -- team, 5 the Anishnaabeg Wawas (phonetic). 6 And they play -- they went out playing 7 with other teams in Stratford and they come from Arcona I 8 think and Watford. 9 But they were in -- they were doing pretty 10 good. And we had -- we had -- I had contact with this 11 person I used to being I was in the flea market business, 12 so was he. So he had like he would buy -- they would go 13 to auctions and he would buy -- just to get one thing he 14 would get a lot of things. 15 And he would take whatever he wanted and 16 then he has to come by the Reserve and -- and sell tables 17 and chairs and coffee tables and dishes and stuff like 18 that real cheap. 19 And I thought that was pretty good. So, 20 and we had -- we had -- we started a school and we had 21 the nurse and the doctor come in and we had donations of 22 clothing brought to the -- to the building. 23 The kitchen has another room off of it. 24 And we had a telephone there for a short time. And -- 25 and I think you'll see those in the newspapers if anybody
791 that follows the news. But anyway I -- I have clippings 2 of those papers showing those different things that came 3 about in the community. 4 Q: So your intent in doing so was to 5 establish -- 6 A: A community. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: Like -- like the one I -- like the 9 one in Kettle Point where they had everything. So we -- 10 just starting to happen. And -- and we had a drum -- we 11 started a drum group of which I'm still part of. 12 This drum group we went to London. We 13 were taught by someone in London who came to -- she came 14 to Kettle Point -- or Stoney Point and we heard her 15 drumming and singing. So we said -- asked her if she 16 could teach us. And she said she could for nothing. 17 The only thing is she couldn't drive so 18 she couldn't come to us. So we went to her. And so the 19 drum group which is called, Ogichadakwe (phonetic) is 20 still in existence since -- since that time they have 21 picked up Natives in London who she teaches still. 22 And this outfit that I'm wearing I usually 23 -- we do openings and closings at different places. And 24 so this-- this is all that took place in Stoney Point. 25 This is where we started and we're still on the go and
801 whenever she has -- we go to jails and the last one I was 2 in was -- where's that jail? I think it's Waterloo, 3 Kitchener and Waterloo area. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: And we were invited there to a feast 6 and drumming. So it's just things like that and go to 7 the universities or different places to drum. 8 Q: If we could turn now, Mrs. Manning, 9 to the subject of Ipperwash Provincial Park. We -- you 10 had mentioned earlier that you had -- were aware of some 11 research into the -- the sale of the land that became the 12 Park. 13 Just turning further back, when you were a 14 child were -- were you told anything about the transfer 15 of that land, the -- the land that later became Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park? 17 A: Well, I think -- no, I don't -- I 18 can't say that I -- I recall. Well, in a way, I -- I do, 19 but in a way, I -- I can't really say for positively sure 20 I did hear -- hear, but I don't know what. You know, 21 they -- they moved that -- the Park used to be further to 22 the west than where it is now. Where the Park is now, 23 that wasn't always there, it was further -- further to 24 the west. 25 Q: And that's what you can recall from
811 when you were a child? 2 A: That's what I can recall. I'm saying 3 that -- and, but there was burial grounds in the Park. 4 Q: And when you were a -- 5 A: And my -- my father he was -- like I 6 said yesterday, he was the Chief and a councillor there 7 and continued to be a councillor in Kettle Point and he 8 said, when I was looking in the archives, that was -- I 9 was in with the negotiating team for a while and we 10 looked in some archives and they have those -- all -- all 11 those books and it's got Stoney Point and it's strictly 12 all Stoney Point stuff. 13 And I recall seeing my dad's name in 14 several places and he was saying, We have to have the -- 15 that burial ground fenced in. 16 Q: And he -- 17 A: He seemed to know where -- exactly 18 where the burial ground was because he wanted it fenced 19 in separate from the -- the Park because they were -- you 20 know, they were desecrating that -- that burial ground 21 also by, you know, they lived there, they had their dance 22 there, they -- whatever they done, you know, they were -- 23 you know, when you -- when you go camping, it's -- they 24 camped there right on our burial ground after the -- 25 after the Park was established there.
821 Q: And can you recall any -- any 2 conversations in your family when you were younger about 3 burial grounds in the Park? 4 A: Yes, I could. They always talked 5 about different ways that people were buried. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: Because I guess it was kind of 8 different to the way they -- they buried their dead back 9 then because they said there some people that were facing 10 west and they were sitting down and they put all their -- 11 put all their belongings in with them and -- and there -- 12 there were some that -- that were all bundled up like -- 13 and they were put in there and -- and they buried them 14 with all their -- what they needed for their travel and I 15 think there were some -- somebody said there was somebody 16 that was burnt and -- and buried also. 17 But that was the people that were 18 travelling through, this wasn't from the -- from our 19 Camp, itself -- I mean, from our home itself, because we 20 had our own separate burial ground and -- but this was 21 supposed to be the visitors that would stop in and -- and 22 they would stop in for flint -- trade for flint or 23 something else or. 24 And flint, in them days, we never had no 25 matches, so, you know, when you -- when you strike the
831 flint with a striker, it'll make a fire. And -- and this 2 is very necessary for the other Natives to have that 3 flint, so they always stopped there because there's a 4 large flint bed in Stoney Point and there's also a flint 5 bed in Kettle Point. 6 Q: And were you aware of the location of 7 any burial sites in the Park? 8 A: Was I aware? 9 Q: Personally aware? 10 A: No, I wasn't. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Because I went looking for -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I went looking for those burial -- 15 you know, for seeing if I could find them myself, but I - 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: There was like little indents, like, 18 where the ground had sunk in, but I was just wondering 19 were those the burial grounds and -- but I don't know if 20 they were or if they weren't, so I don't -- I'm not an 21 archeologist, so... 22 Q: Okay, and were you aware, growing up, 23 of any irregularities or were you told -- were there any 24 concerns in your family about the transfer of that land 25 that later became Ipperwash Provincial Park?
841 A: No, nobody seemed to be overly 2 concerned about -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- about it, because it wasn't their 5 property. 6 Q: Okay. Okay, now turning now to the 7 events of September 1995, were you aware of any planning 8 prior -- we understand from other witnesses that people 9 went into the Park on September 4th, 1995. 10 Were you aware of any planning about going 11 into the Park prior to that date? 12 A: Well, I wasn't -- I wasn't in on the 13 planning, no, it just -- I don't think, no -- no-one -- 14 no-one was planning to move in. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: And to my knowledge, anyway, I was -- 17 if there was, I wasn't -- I wasn't aware of it. But it 18 just -- things happened, like the last day of the -- of 19 the what you call -- they were supposed to leave at a 20 certain time. 21 Q: Labour Day weekend or -- 22 A: Yes. But they seemed to linger on 23 and they start harassing people on the -- on the -- on 24 our side of the fence. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
851 A: And they were trying to lay charges 2 on people. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And -- or they did. 5 Q: Okay, if we could just back up a 6 little bit. 7 Were you present when people first went 8 into the Park on that day, on September 4th, 1995? 9 A: No, I was not -- not -- not when they 10 went in, because -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- there was Les Jewel, he was 13 talking to some people. He said, we should just go right 14 in there, and I said, well, you shouldn't. 15 And -- because they were harassing the 16 people on our side -- our side of the fence. 17 Q: And by "they" -- 18 A: And I -- the police and, you know, 19 they always kept their word, they always stayed on their 20 own side and we stayed on our own side and -- and they 21 said that they should go in. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: But there was no planning, I think -- 24 I think we just set up. I don't think nobody said, okay, 25 now we're going to go in over the other side and how
861 shall we do this and what is the -- what can -- what will 2 we do. 3 I don't think there was anything like 4 that. It just -- 'cause I -- it could have been -- could 5 have been, somebody else might have done it, but I don't 6 -- I wasn't aware of it. 7 Q: Okay, and the comments that you 8 attributed earlier to Les Jewel, were you -- were you 9 present when he -- when he said that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay, thank you. Okay, so how did 12 you eventually on September 4th, I take it, you did go to 13 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: Hmm hmm, and how did you get there? 16 A: I drove in. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: There's a -- the gate was open and I 19 kind of under -- the way I understood it, I thought they 20 were -- somebody kind of left them open and they were 21 just -- the gates were just pulled aside, but I'm not 100 22 percent sure. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: Of -- but I just -- I know they were 25 -- there was no struggle to get in there, and I just
871 drove in and just to show support. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But I didn't -- I didn't -- I just 4 stayed long enough to get myself charged. 5 Q: And we'll come to that. You said 6 "show support" and -- who did show support for whom when 7 you said "show support"? 8 A: For the people that were already in 9 there. 10 Q: Okay. So when you arrived there were 11 people already inside the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And we have heard from many 14 other witnesses about an incident involving Roderick 15 George who -- whom you referred to as Judas, and OPP 16 officers in the Park on that day. 17 Were you present for that? 18 A: Yes, I was. Like they had I think 19 three (3) police cruisers there. And I think his name is 20 George Speck. I know his last name is Speck. But I told 21 him -- I just told him the party's getting kind of rough, 22 why in the heck don't you get out of here. 23 He said, we -- we can't, there's no way -- 24 there's no way out. I said you can just go over that, 25 what do you call those curbs -- those curbs. He said,
881 we'll damage the car. I said you'll damage your car I 2 said, it's not even your cars. I said it belongs to the 3 government. I'm sure they'll get you another one. 4 And I said just go over the curb and 5 leave. And while I was up there talking, Bert come along 6 too and he was almost saying, you know, just leave the 7 way she told you to leave. 8 And Roderick come along. He -- I think he 9 thought I was having a big dispute with this policeman. 10 And he hit the car and I'll say his car moved pretty fast 11 after that. He jumped that curb and so did the rest of 12 them. He just hollered at them and -- and they all got 13 in their cars and left and went over the curb so... 14 So that's -- he -- because I was talking 15 to him he -- he knew who I was and who Bert was and so it 16 resulted that we were charged with, I don't know what it 17 was now. I thought it was trespassing, it must have been 18 something else I was told later. 19 Q: And we've heard I believe from other 20 witnesses that were charged with forcible detainer of the 21 Park? 22 A: Well, it must have been but I wasn't 23 -- I wasn't too worried about it. 24 Q: And that those charges were 25 subsequently withdrawn?
891 A: Yes, they were, by Carla Albright 2 (phonetic). 3 Q: Okay. So you mentioned that you 4 weren't -- didn't spend a great deal of time in the Park 5 on September 4th. 6 Did you -- do you recall being in the Park 7 at all on September 5th; that's the following day? 8 A: It was getting on late -- quite late 9 in the evening, it was dark when the police left and I 10 left for home because I usually go to sleep quite early 11 about eleven o'clock, still do. 12 Q: So you're talking about September 13 4th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And the following day did you 16 return to the Park to your recollection? 17 A: I might have. No, that wasn't then. 18 I went to use the -- I went to use the -- no, that 19 wasn't. No, I -- I -- 20 Q: And it's understandable if you can't 21 remember specifically on that particular day. 22 A: Well, I know I wasn't there. 23 Q: Yeah, it was a very long time ago. 24 And do you recall seeing police cruisers on September 4th 25 the date you -- you went in -- did go into the Park, do
901 you recall seeing an increased police presence in the 2 roads around the Army camp and Ipperwash Provincial Park? 3 A: Yes, yes I do. 4 Q: And where -- what -- what did you 5 see? 6 A: I seen -- I seen quite a large number 7 of police, police cars as well as police -- police, the 8 policemen. 9 Q: Okay. And where did you see them? 10 A: Right around the front gate and right 11 clean around the -- the buildings and down in -- down the 12 side -- side. As far as I could see, they were all over 13 the place. 14 Q: Okay. And after you left the Park on 15 the evening of September 4th, did you return again at 16 any point prior to the events that took place on the 17 evening of September 6th? 18 A: When is that? 19 A: So, the day after. You said you -- 20 you didn't return to the Park on September 5th. On 21 September 6th -- 22 A: Well, when the police were there, we 23 had a meeting. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. On September 4th or... Are 25 -- okay, did you go --
911 A: I'm getting mixed up. 2 Q: On September -- maybe I'll rephrase 3 the question. On September 6th, the events of the 4 evening of September 6th are what's at issue -- what -- 5 what's at issue at -- in this Inquiry, but earlier that 6 day, do you recall going to the Park at all for a visit 7 or any other reason? 8 A: Was that the day of the shooting? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: No, because we were planning to meet 11 with Ron French. 12 Q: Okay. Okay. And you knew earlier 13 that day that someone named Ron French would be coming to 14 meet with you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And Maynard gave us this site. He 18 said in the afternoon some time, so he said, Don't wander 19 away too far, we're having this meeting. 20 Q: Okay. And who was Ron French? 21 A: Gee, I don't know who -- who he was. 22 He was somebody that was supposed to help us -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- help us to get established or help 25 us with our land claim.
921 Q: Okay. And we anticipate that we will 2 hear evidence that Ron French was a representative of the 3 Department of Indian Affairs at the time? 4 A: Well, see, we didn't even know that. 5 Q: Did he identify -- okay, first of 6 all, did that meeting take place? 7 A: Yes, it did. It took a long time. 8 We were -- we were in with this guy for a long, long 9 time. We had -- like, we ate -- we ate some time quite 10 early with -- it must have been around 6:00 or 7:00 that 11 we -- we ate together with him and Jan was busy. She was 12 running here and there preparing the meals. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: Preparing a meal. 15 Q: And Jan -- 16 A: And that was where all my family -- 17 we were all together in M. T. George's barracks. 18 Q: Maynard T. George's barracks? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And were there also members of the 21 Cloud family there as well as Janet Cloud? 22 A: Yes, they were all there and so her 23 whole family and there were some other -- another family 24 there; there was a few others there. 25 Q: And what did you discuss with Mr.
931 French during that meeting? 2 A: Well, he was supposed to help us 3 to... That's why he came. He said, We're going to -- 4 we're going to help you, I'm going to help you. 5 So, of course we -- we thought well, 6 here's somebody that's going to help us out to get this 7 land claim settled. 8 Q: Okay. That's what he told you? 9 A: So -- and, yes. And that's the way 10 we believed it. You know, and then he said, You should 11 go to Kettle point, because you know when we did see the 12 police he said -- well, he wanted us to leave because -- 13 and he was getting agitated and, you know, then he said, 14 You're surrounded by police. He said, They're all over - 15 - they're right clean around this camp. They're in the - 16 - they're in the boats out on the lake; they're overhead 17 with their -- with their helicopters and he said, You 18 should get right out here, right now. 19 And so he -- he really made us upset and 20 angry and I said -- and he said, There's something might 21 -- might happen here. And I said, Well, if anything does 22 then the blood will be on your hands. 23 You don't want it because the -- you have 24 the -- you have the authority and you have the -- he had, 25 what you call, he kept making little calls with his cell
941 phone -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: And -- and he also indicated that 4 somebody, there was somebody -- they had somebody 5 targeted for -- he didn't say who, he just said there's - 6 - they're after certain people here. 7 Q: And this conversation you're 8 describing about the latter -- other than the land claim 9 issue, did that happen -- what time in the evening did 10 that happen? Was that at the beginning of the meeting or 11 was it -- 12 A: Well you know, he was talking and 13 talking and trying to get us out of there in a calm and 14 gentle voice and what he was going to do, and then -- and 15 then later he's, you know, kept watching the clock and 16 talking to someone and -- and then he said we had to get 17 out of there right then. 18 But that's the night Bonnie came after 19 most of the people there. 20 Q: Okay, and -- 21 A: That was after the shooting. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: And so when Ron French left, it was 24 shortly thereafter. We stayed to see what, you know, to 25 talk about what happened and that's where we were.
951 That's why we didn't see -- I didn't see nobody going 2 through the gate. 3 I didn't know anybody, you know, that's 4 when he left, and like those -- there were -- they 5 started shooting at people. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And... 8 Q: How did -- do you recall what time he 9 left? 10 A: Round -- close to 11:00. 11 Q: Okay, and prior to that do you know 12 who he was -- did he tell you who he was talking to on 13 his cell phone? 14 A: Oh, no, he never said and we never 15 asked him. 16 Q: Okay, okay, and how did you become 17 aware, you said that you stayed behind in that building 18 to discuss the meeting. 19 How did you become aware that something 20 had happened at the Park? 21 A: Well, someone come and told us and 22 they said there's cars here for you to go to Kettle 23 Point -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- and -- but we lost track of two
961 (2) of our grandkids, they went back to the Park at that 2 time. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: He ran back to the Park, so we missed 5 our ride and -- and we had two (2) car loads so we were - 6 - but most of the people left to the-- to the -- 7 Q: Were you present in the area of the 8 main gate when Dudley George or Nicholus Cotrelle were 9 brought through that way? 10 A: No, no we were -- as I say, we were 11 still talking about this meeting and, you know, talking 12 about, well, what's going to happen now, because we're 13 surrounded by police and they're in the air and in the 14 boats, so -- and there was no one there to help us. So 15 what do you -- what's going to happen? You know, and -- 16 Q: Where did you spend the remainder of 17 that night? 18 A: When we finally found our boys, then 19 we went back to where -- to the stone quarry where I had 20 -- I had a small house there, a small shack, cottage or 21 whatever you want to call it. 22 Q: And why did you move out of the 23 built-up area that night? 24 A: Because I fully believed that the 25 police would come -- would come in.
971 Q: Okay, turning to the -- to the 2 following day, were you present when people arrived from 3 Kettle Point? We understand from other witnesses that 4 the next morning, on the morning of September 7th, people 5 marched along Highway 21 from Kettle Point towards Stoney 6 Point. 7 Were you -- were you present when they 8 arrived at the Army camp? 9 A: I was in my -- I was in the built-up 10 area. See, my son, he somehow got in through there -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- past the police. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: Because we had someone at the -- 15 there was someone on the outside. They said, Who do you 16 want -- what do you want us to do? Like, what -- Do you 17 want me to call someone? And I said, Yes, call -- call 18 my son Bruce and Harvey and so he called Harvey Manning 19 who in turn called the peacekeepers. 20 And -- and Bert he took off and he -- he 21 got in -- he got in past the police and -- and he came 22 over to where we were. 23 Q: When you were on the ranges or in the 24 built-up area? 25 A: When we were on the -- on the range.
981 Q: Okay. So, that was sometime that 2 night? 3 A: He said, Come on back up to the -- he 4 said -- because I had radio and I played this radio all 5 night long and every half an hour they would have updates 6 on -- on what was going on. 7 And I would sleep for a little while and I 8 would wake up and sleep and wake up and by the time 9 morning was -- was -- I kind of went into shock I guess 10 and -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- and I went home and I went to bed 13 and there I stayed for about two (2) weeks or so later. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. So, did you attend any of 15 the meetings that we understand -- understood took place 16 on September 7th or 8th in the built-up area or -- or 17 outside of the Army Camp? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And were you involved at all 20 in the investigations that was conducted by members of 21 the First Nation among others into the shooting death of 22 Dudley George? 23 A: No. No, I wasn't. 24 Q: Okay. And I just have one (1) 25 further area of questioning for you, Mrs. Manning. You
991 stated that -- so after September of 1995, did you 2 remain in the built-up area of the Army Camp? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: How long did you remain -- did you 5 continue to live there? 6 A: Well I was -- I -- I don't know but I 7 stayed there for a while. 8 Q: Okay. All right. And did you 9 eventually move back to Kettle Point? 10 A: Yes, I did. I -- I remember it was 11 on -- on Easter. 12 Q: Okay. And do you recall what year 13 that was? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Now can you describe why you 16 left the Army Camp? 17 A: Well, there was different reasons. 18 One (1) -- one (1) thing for sure, I was on the 19 negotiating committee in Kettle Point. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: And another thing is they had an 22 incident with our school teacher, Carolyn Hile 23 (phonetic). 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: While -- while we were in Waterloo,
1001 we were in Waterloo the day of this happening, we were 2 negotiating there for the cleanup of the camp. They were 3 trying to -- we were interviewing people -- or maybe they 4 did -- they were in the process of hiring two (2) men 5 from Waterloo -- Waterloo and Kitchener. 6 And this is where we were, Joanne and 7 myself, and -- and I guess they -- I guess they were 8 suspicious that the nun was a spy or something. And when 9 we -- when we come home that night she -- they -- she -- 10 she had left. She left everything behind. Her -- 11 Q: So, you weren't present when she 12 left? 13 A: Pardon? 14 Q: You weren't present when she left? 15 A: No, I wasn't there. It was just, two 16 (2) of my boys, I think, were there. 17 Q: All right. And that's why -- that's 18 one (1) of the reasons why you left the Army Camp? 19 A: Well, that was one (1) of the reasons 20 because she had -- she had the telephones -- she had the 21 telephones and she also had the -- the -- she helped us 22 out money-wise to buy our staples and -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- whatever. And she lent us -- and 25 she wanted to help everybody out and -- and I said,
1011 whenever -- and I -- I knew they didn't like her all 2 along, they were -- because they were always suspicious 3 that she was just there just -- just looking for 4 something to report to I don't know who. 5 But she was supposed to be a spy and I 6 said whenever they asked her to leave, then I'm leaving. 7 That'll be my -- my deciding -- you know, that'll be the 8 deciding factor that I shall leave when -- when Carolyn 9 leaves, because she was the only good thing that was 10 happening to me, anyway. It was -- 11 Q: Okay. And were you asked to leave by 12 any other Occupants of the Camp? 13 A: No, I was not. 14 Q: Okay. And... 15 A: And it's -- it was just all -- all 16 around the sister, Carolyn Hile. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And when she came back for her pills, 19 that one (1) of them -- one (1) of them couldn't sleep 20 without her pills, so we took her pills out and we still 21 had her phone. And there was a lot of things, that you 22 quickly went over all the different things. 23 There was still a lot of stories out there 24 and -- but this is why -- this is the reason -- and -- 25 and Carolyn Hile is still my friend and -- and she's a
1021 teacher and she's -- at the time, she come highly 2 recommended; it wasn't somebody we hired off the street. 3 And she has a -- she has a place where she 4 teaches special children. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: Like, if you don't have any money to 7 send your children to day camp, they -- they have a day 8 camp in the Barrie area and they also have a large farm 9 there where she hires different people and -- and I've 10 been there. 11 And I know that -- I didn't have the 12 chance to go there while I was at the Camp, but I've been 13 there recently and I -- I've seen her as recently as when 14 my -- my son-in-law passed away not too long ago, about a 15 month ago, and she -- I seen her that day, she was down. 16 So she still continues to be -- she's still my friend 17 and -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- she's still helping out wherever 20 she can. 21 Q: All right. I'm -- 22 A: And now she's -- she goes by the Army 23 Camp, maybe she's still spying on them there. 24 Q: Okay. Mrs. Manning, I'm just going 25 to give you a chance to -- to comment on some evidence
1031 that was entered earlier in these proceedings and has 2 been commented on by a number of other witnesses. 3 You'll find it -- if -- if you want to 4 refer to it, it's at Tab 35 of your binder, Inquiry 5 Document Number 2001636. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 7 Commissioner. If it was appropriate to allow Mrs. 8 Manning to describe why she left because it had been 9 referred to by the witnesses, however, certainly it's not 10 relevant to these proceedings at all. 11 There have been objections in the past 12 that to ask about anything about 1995, obviously some 13 things after 1995 are relevant because they might 14 influence your recommendations and so on, but to go into 15 detail and confront her with what other people have said 16 about this event, about her leaving, cannot be of any 17 possible assistance to this Commission, in my respectful 18 submission. 19 She indicated what she thought were the 20 reasons that she left and she described that and it was 21 appropriate to give her an opportunity to do that, but 22 that should end the matter, rather than getting into any 23 details of any disagreements that may have existed in my 24 submission, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where are
1041 you going, Ms. Hensel? I thought you were about 2 finished. Where are you going? 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: All right. Well, 4 I -- I certainly -- I can be finished. If -- I'm in your 5 hands. I was hoping to give the -- the Witness an 6 opportunity to comment on evidence that was entered 7 earlier out of -- out of fairness to her. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What 9 evidence is that? 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: At Tab 35, there's 11 a news article. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 13 look at it. What's the date of it? 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: It's dated April 15 22nd, 1998 and has been referred to a couple of times 16 earlier in this Proceeding. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mr. Clifford 22 George addressed it, as well as Ms. Simon. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1051 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 2 article already an exhibit? 3 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes, it is. I'm 4 not sure of the exhibit number at this moment, but... 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 6 think there's some merit to Mr. Rosenthal's objection, 7 but I think if you can deal with it in a sentence or two, 8 or in a minute or two, or I mean, if it's to -- 9 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Hmm hmm. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- give her 11 an opportunity or to be fair to her -- 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Hmm hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if it's 14 already in the record, but I certainly don't want to go 15 down this road very far. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: No. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sure you 18 don't, either. 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: No. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And just to make 24 it clear, Mr. Commissioner, Mrs. Manning is quoted 25 extensively in that article.
1061 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. And I will 3 just read briefly those portions where she is quoted, 4 some of which have already been entered into the record 5 here or read into the record. 6 At Page 2 of the article it states: 7 "In a prepared statement, Rose Manning 8 and her family allege that Oneida and 9 Walpole Island peacekeepers on the 10 Government payroll are among those 11 threatening and harassing original 12 Elders and their families arms." 13 And then they quote you: 14 "'We have been threatened with arms and 15 we have taken up arms to defend 16 ourselves', Manning's statement said. 17 'Last week, around midnight five (5) 18 men came to my home. I was there with 19 one of my granddaughters', Manning 20 said. 'They threatened us with...'" 21 And then on to Page 3: 22 "'...guns and said I had to leave. One 23 (1) of these men is an Oneida 24 peacekeeper, another was from Walpole 25 Island and the rest were from Stoney
1071 Point', Manning said. 2 The Stoney Point Elders said her family 3 persuaded her to leave for her own 4 safety but even as she prepared to 5 move, the threats continued, some by 6 men from other nations. 7 'Peacekeeper Layton Elijah was asked to 8 help resolve the situation but never 9 showed either', Manning said." 10 Then further on: 11 "Rose Manning said she left her Stoney 12 Point home on Good Friday morning, but 13 she vowed to return." 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: First of all, do you recall speaking 18 -- this is an article from the Forest Standard dated 19 April 22nd, 1998. 20 Do you recall speaking to anyone from the 21 Forest Standard? 22 A: Well, I -- I've -- I've spoken to 23 people all over. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: But what it -- what it says there,
1081 that there just myself and a grandchild, that is 2 completely false because I would not be staying there by 3 myself with just a young child. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: That was -- that was Joanne's child 6 and she was very young at the time and I was certainly -- 7 most certainly would not be staying anywhere by myself. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: I still -- you know, I -- right now, 10 I don't stay by myself. 11 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. 12 A: I'm too afraid of ghosts. 13 Q: Okay. And do you recall preparing a 14 statement to make to the media at any point? 15 A: No, I never prepared -- I never -- I 16 never prepare anything. I've never prepared a -- to -- I 17 never made preparations to say anything. I just say what 18 they asked me and -- and -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: -- the way I'd like to have it said. 21 And like we -- I heard yesterday of one (1) person I got 22 up and -- and really said that the media always misquote 23 the person that says something. 24 And it's always -- it's always, you know, 25 the -- they added those -- the things to sell the paper.
1091 It's not to -- it's not for my benefit. It's not for my 2 good feelings. It's not for -- it's what's going to sell 3 the papers not -- so, that is false. 4 Q: So you did not make the statements 5 that I read out to any number of the media? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: And you weren't threatened with guns? 8 A: No, I was not. 9 Q: Did your family have any guns at your 10 -- at the residence you were staying in? 11 A: No, I -- I didn't see any. I never 12 ever seen any guns throughout my stay there. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: I might have been -- I must have been 15 at the right place at the right time. But I, you know, 16 coming and going all the time I never ever seen any guns. 17 I never paid no attention to guns, eh. 18 Q: Thank you, Mrs. Manning. 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Mr. Commissioner, 20 those are my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much Ms. Hensel. Have a usual indication of -- it's 23 twenty-five to 12:00. Can we have a usual indication of 24 who expects to question Mrs. Manning? Okay. 25 Ms. Tuck-Jackson, how long do you think
1101 you might be. 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Maybe five (5) 3 minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe five 5 (5) minutes. 6 And Ms. Jones...? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Maybe twenty (20) 8 minutes at the most. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maybe twenty 10 (20) minutes. 11 And Ms. McAleer...? 12 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Fifteen (15), 13 maybe twenty (20) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I think 15 we should get right into it then. Thank you. 16 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is Ms. 18 Manning represented by anyone here? No. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 23 Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 morning.
1111 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON. 2 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Manning. 3 A: Good morning. 4 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and 5 I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 6 I wonder if we could have Document 2003357 up on the 7 screen. It's been marked as Exhibit P-332, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 And Mrs. Manning if it's easier for you to 10 look at, it's at Tab 3 of your binder. But, I'll read 11 out to you the passage that I'm interested in asking you 12 about. Okay? 13 A: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What page of 15 that document are you referring to, Ms. Tuck-Jackson? 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'm going to be 17 referring to the August the 4th, 1995 entry, sir, of the 18 table that appears towards the end of the series of 19 pages. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 21 on page 19. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It's got the 23 page number 19 on the bottom actually. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON.
1121 Q: Mrs. Manning, Ms. -- Ms. Hensel took 2 you to a number of meetings that Constable -- excuse me, 3 Officer Bouwman has reduced to writing that he had with a 4 number of those individuals who were living at the Base. 5 And I just wanted to refer you to one 6 other meeting to see if you have any recollection about 7 it. And it appears here, it's been dated as August the 8 4th and it may have occurred on August the 3rd, it was 9 either the 3rd or the 4th, and the indication is that 10 Officer Bouwman attended with -- at the base, meeting 11 with Glenn George and Les Jewel and also present were 12 Officer Speck, Officer Wright and Officer Lickman. 13 And according to this, you were present 14 along with Judas George, Clayton George, your son Bert, 15 Terry George, Joanne Jackson, Dexter Jackson and some 16 other individuals. 17 And it would appear that the primary, or 18 the main topic of conversation was an outstanding warrant 19 for the arrest of Lincoln Jackson, because at that point 20 there was an allegation that he had been the driver of 21 the school bus. 22 We now know that that wasn't accurate, but 23 at the time, it was believed that he was the driver of 24 the bus and you may recall that the OPP were trying to 25 make arrangements for him to surrender in accordance with
1131 the outstanding warrant. 2 Does any of this refresh your memory, Mrs. 3 Manning? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So you do recall a meeting of that 6 nature? 7 A: I wasn't -- I wasn't present at that 8 meeting, though. 9 Q: You were not present? 10 A: No, I was not, but I know -- I know 11 of the -- I know -- I know of the incident. But I was 12 not present there, I never was present at any meeting 13 with Les Jewel. 14 Q: All right. It says a little bit 15 further in that Officer Bouwman asked Glenn George and 16 Les Jewel about firefighters being allowed on to the Base 17 in the case of some type of a fire emergency. 18 And further in, there's an indication that 19 you had said that one car, meaning I gather, one car of 20 firefighters or fire equipment, would be allowed in, but 21 not more than that. Certainly not as many as ten (10) 22 Do you recall saying anything like that 23 during a meeting with -- with police officers? 24 And admittedly -- 25 A: Well, I don't think there would be
1141 ten (10) fire -- fire trucks at any time. No, I don't 2 recall saying that, but I know that we were supposed to 3 be protected by Kettle Point and Thetford. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: Where -- they -- we had asked them to 6 protect us. 7 Q: Do you recall having a conversation 8 with some OPP officers about the circumstances or the 9 conditions under which fire trucks or fire equipment 10 personnel would be permitted onto the Base? 11 A: Well, they were supposed to be 12 permitted onto the Base. They were supposed to be there, 13 but I didn't say two (2) or three (3) or four (4) because 14 it takes as many as it takes. 15 I didn't specify how many -- how many -- 16 how many trucks or how many, you know, how many -- you 17 know, I never specified at any time how many vehicles 18 should be on -- at the Base. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I just asked for help. 21 Q: All right. But something is -- is 22 jogging your memory that you had some type of a 23 conversation of this nature in general about access by 24 firefighter personnel, firefighters -- 25 A: No, I never -- I never even -- I
1151 don't recall that at all, but I -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I know that -- I know that -- those 4 were the conditions that we lived under and... 5 Q: All right. Mrs. Manning, I may have 6 misheard you and I wanted to -- to clarify. You were 7 speaking, when you were asked about the police build up 8 in the area around the Base -- 9 A: I beg your pardon? 10 Q: You were speaking of the police build 11 up in the area around the Base after a number of Stoney 12 Pointers had moved into the Park. 13 And I thought I heard you say something 14 about the police rifling around the buildings and I 15 wanted to clarify that you didn't mean that the police 16 were actually inside the Base, that they were outside of 17 the Base? 18 A: No, they were inside the Base. I 19 have a -- I have a picture -- I have a picture of those 20 police. They were really going through the documents and 21 they were -- they were photocopying documents and -- in 22 what we called the Argument Hall. 23 And I -- and I can prove that. 24 Q: I'm sorry, Mrs. Manning, maybe I 25 should have been more precise as to the time frame I'm
1161 speaking about. 2 I'm speaking, actually, of September the 3 4th, 1995, not when the helicopter shooting investigation 4 was going on. 5 And I just wanted to confirm with you that 6 when you were speaking of the increased presence of 7 police officers, that you meant that they were around the 8 Base. 9 There weren't police officers actually on 10 the Base? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Right, that's what I thought. Thank 13 you, and I just wanted to clarify that. 14 A: But they were always around and they 15 -- while we're on -- talking about police officers, they 16 were always giving us tickets for -- for -- for light -- 17 for not having any -- for not having a light -- a light 18 out -- a little tail light on a car or just -- just minor 19 things. 20 They were always -- every time we left our 21 -- our driveway, they would come along from -- from where 22 -- I don't know where, but they would come along and -- 23 and charge you and -- and we had to go and speak to those 24 charges and pay for a lot of those charges. 25 And -- and when you're -- you just jogged
1171 my memory of how they harassed us off the Base because 2 they were always around the Base waiting to pounce on you 3 for some -- some reason. Or they would follow you and 4 then they'd pull you over and they done that to me for a 5 long time. I got so I was so scared of them guys, like, 6 where do you go when you need help? 7 But I remember, you know, why would -- you 8 know, any other time you see -- you see cars even today, 9 they have one (1) -- one (1) light out, like, and yet 10 they're continuing to ride the highways really, but -- 11 with lights out, but we had one (1) little light out, 12 they were right there to give you a fine -- a fine. 13 Q: Ms. Manning, you -- you claimed this 14 morning that during the search of the -- the rifle range 15 area in connection with the helicopter shooting 16 investigation, that an officer threatened to shoot you -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- if you went into the bush area; I 19 gather it was? 20 A: Oh, no, it was the built-up area. It 21 was not the built-up area, it was right near my home. 22 There's the Mud Creek -- 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: -- right -- there's -- there's the 25 steel bridge there --
1181 Q: Yes? 2 A: -- and I was going -- I was going 3 home to get my medication and I had a bunch of kids with 4 me. 5 Q: And was it the female officer who 6 threatened to shoot you, or was -- 7 A: Oh, no, it was just some officers 8 standing there. I think they were just trying to 9 intimidate me or something. I wasn't afraid at -- at -- 10 and I didn't take them serious and I don't know how 11 serious they were, but I tested them out; they weren't 12 serious. 13 Q: Mrs. -- 14 A: I wouldn't be here today if they 15 were. 16 Q: Mrs. Manning, did you make a 17 complaint to anybody about that? 18 A: Pardon? 19 Q: Did you make a complaint? 20 A: No, but I -- I've told my story 21 around and I told them that and -- and it wasn't only 22 heard in Stoney Point, it was heard in -- in Windsor when 23 I went and spoke there. I'm thinking I've -- I've spoke 24 different places and I said, Those police threatened to 25 shoot me.
1191 Q: And I guess when I -- when I said, 2 "complaint," did you contact anyone -- 3 A: Oh, no, I didn't. Who do you 4 complain to when a police officer is going to shoot you? 5 The Pope's not going to come and save you and I think 6 they're the highest ranking -- who do you complain to? 7 Q: Did you complain to the Kettle and 8 Stony Point Police Service? 9 A: No, I didn't because I think they 10 were with the OPP at the time; they weren't Anishnaabek 11 police then. I think they were under the -- no, I -- I 12 did not. 13 Q: Thank you, Mrs. Manning, thank you 14 for your time. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 16 Ms. Jones...? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Manning. 22 A: Good morning 23 Q: My name's Karen Jones and I'm one (1) 24 of the lawyers who acts for the Ontario Provincial Police 25 Association and I wanted to ask you some questions just
1201 to follow-up on things that you had said yesterday and 2 today. 3 You had talked a little bit about being in 4 the range area in 1993 and 1994 and we've heard some 5 evidence from others that there was a concern in the fall 6 of 1994 about stolen cars coming onto the base, and I 7 know you just told us today that you were aware of one 8 (1) car. 9 What I wanted to ask you about, though, is 10 I understand that there was a proposal by the 11 municipality to try and do some work along Outer Drive to 12 stop vehicles coming in -- into the Base through that 13 area. 14 Did you know anything about that? 15 A: Who was the work being done by? 16 Q: So far as I know, by -- by the 17 municipality. 18 A: No, I don't know anything about the 19 municipality, but I do know that they hired some 20 Mennonites to do some fence work on --not on the 21 21 Highway. 22 Q: Okay. Did you know about any plans 23 to do work along Outer Drive to stop cars -- 24 A: Oh, no, I -- 25 Q: -- from coming in?
1211 A: I never -- nobody planned anything 2 that I know of. To my knowledge it's -- I don't -- I 3 don't know if there's any work being down now or there's 4 -- is there been fences put up? 5 Q: I'm not sure right -- 6 A: On Outer Drive? 7 Q: -- now, but I was just trying to get 8 some information about in 1994, it's quite a while ago. 9 A: Oh, no, there was no -- nothing 10 there -- 11 Q: Nothing there? 12 A: And there was no-one trying to 13 attempt to put anything up there. 14 Q: And no ditches were -- 15 A: But I know that -- 16 Q: -- being -- 17 A: -- they were trying to put a fence up 18 along the 21 Highway, but that was the Mennonites and 19 they were hired by the DND. 20 Q: Okay. You've told us that in the 21 spring of 1995, you had a discussion with Charlie Bouwman 22 about ATV's coming onto the beach in the Base area. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yeah, and I understand that the 25 police, that is the OPP, had patrolled that beach area in
1221 1993, because of -- 2 A: Is that prior to us going in? 3 Q: No, after you went in. 4 A: No, they did not. 5 Q: They were never on -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- that beach at all in 1993? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: They said before we -- before we 14 arrived at military, they used to use that road. They 15 used to use that sandy beach area, that was prior to our 16 arrival, that they would -- I don't know what -- where 17 they went, but they would have access to the beach and go 18 to -- to the other beaches, I guess. I don't know 19 right... 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I never seen them around anywhere 22 anyway. 23 Q: Okay, and you weren't aware of any 24 concerns about a camp that was established up on the 25 beach or any problems associated with those camps in the
1231 summer time? 2 A: The camps? 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: Well, speaking about the camp -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: The Provincial Park camp? 7 Q: No, a camp that was set up by some of 8 the occupiers on the beach at the military base. 9 Did you know anything about that camp? 10 A: There was camps -- I mean, people 11 slept out there and -- 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: -- in the summer. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: But there was no one big main camp. 16 There was just a little -- what would you call them? 17 They were made of -- they were just made of sticks and 18 arbour -- brush arbour. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: They would put new brush on top and 21 it was just -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- a place to have -- to get away 24 from the sun, if you wanted to sit underneath the brush 25 arbour, you can.
1241 Q: Okay. 2 A: But there was two (2) -- I think 3 three (3) of them. 4 Q: Okay. And how about the bus being 5 parked on the beach and the beach area? 6 A: Well, the bus is parked all over the 7 place. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: At different times, whatever it was 10 needed for. 11 Q: Okay. You talked -- 12 A: It wasn't only parked on the beach. 13 It was -- 14 Q: No? 15 A: No. It was parked wherever they 16 wanted. Because there was people living in it and people 17 if they wanted to go down there and change and you know, 18 it was -- it was used for multiple purposes. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: But it was like you would when -- 21 eventually they got trailers up there of their own. 22 Q: You also talked a little bit about 23 the day in which you and others went into the built-up 24 area. 25 A: Yes.
1251 Q: Yeah. And one of the things that you 2 told us is that some people, Glenn and Marcie and Bert 3 and maybe others were going to go in through the back way 4 into the built-up area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you say Glenn, I take it you 7 mean Glenn George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. And so he was one of the 10 people that was involved in the planning of the takeover 11 and was there? 12 A: No. He wasn't involved in the 13 planning. 14 Q: No? He was -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- just involved in the takeover? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. And so he came in and -- 19 A: Bert was not involved in the planning 20 of it either. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: It just -- there was just a very few 23 of us and we just told them what we were going to do and 24 they made their own decision of -- of what they were 25 going to do. It wasn't you can do it or you have to do
1261 it. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: It was just whoever wanted to -- 4 Q: I just wanted to check with you 5 though, Mrs. Manning, that Glenn George was at the base 6 and went in through the back way. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you see that? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: But he -- before he got there the -- 12 the military they put those spikes all across the back 13 and Glenn, he was on his tractor and he -- he hit one of 14 them -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- and he got a flat tire. So he was 17 detained and he wasn't -- all those things sprayed him. 18 Q: They bothered him, didn't they? 19 A: Yes. And he wasn't really too -- he 20 had to look after himself first. 21 Q: Sure. 22 A: Yeah, so he wasn't -- he wasn't 23 really involved in -- in anything but he come -- when the 24 dust settled he was there. But the other people like 25 Marcia and Melva, they took the road and there was no --
1271 there was nothing there at the time. 2 But they used to put those -- those belts 3 across the road. But, you know, he went across the field 4 and this is where he got this big tire -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- exploded. 7 Q: Yeah. Did you know in the summer of 8 1995 before you decided to move into the built-up area, 9 did you know whether the military was starting to pull 10 out of the built-up area? 11 Whether there were less people there than 12 there had been before? 13 A: Oh, yes. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: Ever since we arrived, they started 16 leaving. 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: Because we would see the big trucks 19 pulling -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- away more and more. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: And we just figured they were taking 24 everything out maybe -- maybe there was going to be -- 25 well you speculate too and like myself. And we said well
1281 maybe they're going to rent it to somebody else or -- or 2 somebody's going to -- DND's going to put someone else 3 there. We never knew what they were going to do. 4 Q: Right. But you knew that -- 5 A: Because it's run by DND and -- 6 Q: Right. You knew I guess in the 7 summer that there weren't many people left there anymore 8 in terms of the military personnel? 9 A: Well, yes, because they used to march 10 around the highway and taunt us all the time. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: Everyday pretty well they'd march 13 around and chant away and saying that we forgot to pay 14 our taxes and I said, hey, did I pay my taxes? And I 15 said, oh yes, I've paid my taxes. And I said they can't 16 mean me. So -- but they used to say things like that 17 just to -- I don't know why, just to taunt us I guess 18 trying to scare us away or. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I would holler at them but I knew 21 they couldn't hear me anyway because they were, you know, 22 they had nice little rhymes in there and different 23 things. 24 But I'd always -- I don't know that always 25 sticks to me about the taxes.
1291 Q: Okay. 2 A: Because I have to be reminded to make 3 sure I pay my taxes. So they... 4 Q: You were asked some questions about 5 the Park, and you had said at one point in time, the Park 6 was further west than where it is now. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah, and you'd also talked -- 9 A: This is hearsay only. This is what 10 my -- my dad and my grandfather used to say, that the 11 Park was -- was way over to the west and they also had a 12 store there. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: Right at the corner. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And also back on -- back where the -- 17 it's another story. It's -- has a... 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: There's many stories in this Stoney 20 Point. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: I know a lot of them, so I don't want 23 to get into that one. 24 Q: And you had said that your father 25 talked about their being burial grounds in the Park. Did
1301 he mean the old Park, the one that was further west? 2 A: No, we -- 3 Q: Was that what he was talking to? 4 A: -- we had our own burial ground. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: We had our own cemetery -- 7 Q: Yeah -- 8 A: I'm talking about the visitors. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: You know, when they came they usually 11 buried them in the Park area. 12 Q: Okay. And I just wondered, when you 13 were talking about the Park area, did you mean the old 14 Park, the one that your father and grandfather used to 15 talk about -- 16 A: I'm -- I'm -- 17 Q: -- further west? 18 A: -- talking about where the people 19 were -- or the Provincial Park now as it stands where -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- where they were doing all their 22 dancing round and their partying and everything else, and 23 I used to say, you know, what would they think if I went 24 to Ravenswood cemetery and put up a tent there and camped 25 there and -- and I said they'd have me out of there so
1311 quick. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And -- but, you know, they -- they 4 didn't have no respect for our cemeteries and they still 5 don't, because they're always digging -- trying to dig 6 the natives out and then examining the last bit of what's 7 left of them. 8 They're still doing that today. I speak 9 to people that are doing that. They go round taking 10 things and all those things that they can find, they're 11 worth a lot of money, that was buried with the dead. 12 Q: Mrs. Manning, when -- you were just 13 asked some questions about a meeting where, according to 14 the notes, it looks like you were one of the people at 15 the meeting and Les Jewel was one of the people at the 16 meeting, and you said that you were never present at any 17 meeting where Les Jewel was. 18 A: No, I wasn't. I know -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- that for sure. I never was with - 21 - at a meeting where Les Jewel was present. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Because Les Jewel was not a Stoney 24 Pointer. 25 Q: Okay, would -- in your view, should
1321 he have been at meetings? 2 A: No, he shouldn't have been. 3 Q: Where -- okay. You've told us that 4 you knew Les and Russ Jewel's father? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that you knew Les and Russ Jewel 7 lived at -- in the Base and for some time, before you 8 went to the Park. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Well, they came and they didn't -- 12 they weren't there every day, day in, day out. They 13 probably had a life, too. They were constantly moving 14 about. 15 Q: Okay. One of the things -- 16 A: And I knew their sister, Sandra. She 17 used to bring us really some -- really high class -- like 18 she would bring us fruit galore and, you know, they were 19 not -- they were supposed to be poor, but she would fill 20 a table up longer than this and -- and -- of all kinds of 21 fruit and vegetables and sandwiches and she would feed us 22 down at the beach and that was one of the Jewel girls. 23 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. 24 A: So I -- somebody must have -- we 25 always thought -- thought somebody was paying her to --
1331 to bring all this food to us. 2 For what reason, I don't know, but almost 3 every Sunday around four o'clock she would arrive with 4 all this good food. 5 Q: Okay, and those are all my questions. 6 Thank you very much. 7 A: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 10 Yes, Ms. McAleer...? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 15 Q: Good morning, Ms. Manning. My name 16 is Jennifer McAleer and -- 17 A: Good morning. 18 Q: -- I'm one of the lawyers who's 19 acting for the former Premier, Mike Harris. 20 You discussed a little bit, the leadership 21 at the camp and, just one moment... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Ms. Hensel had put to you a
1341 discussion with Sergeant Bouwman that's recorded or 2 Sergeant Bouwman's notes are recorded at Tab 3 of the 3 brief that Counsel's prepared. 4 In the first paragraph of that document, 5 the very last sentence indicates, and this is Sergeant 6 Bouwman indicating a conversation that he had with you. 7 And I'm just going to tell you what 8 Sergeant Bouwman says, and then I'm going to ask you 9 about it. 10 Sergeant Bouwman indicated that you had 11 indicated: 12 "No one really has control over her 13 people living on the base. They won't 14 listen to -- " 15 My copy's blanked out, but I believe 16 that's Carl George. 17 Do you remember speaking to Sergeant 18 Bouwman and telling him that Carl George no longer had 19 control over your people as of November of 1994? 20 A: Could you repeat that question? 21 Q: Sure. Do you recall speaking to 22 Sergeant Bouwman and indicating that as of November of 23 1994, Carl George no longer had control over the 24 occupiers? 25 A: No, I don't --
1351 Q: Okay. 2 A: I don't recall saying that. 3 Q: Do you recall -- 4 A: Except I didn't know as he -- as he 5 had -- you said "control" or what did you say? 6 Q: His word is "control", that Carl 7 George no longer had control over the occupiers. Was 8 that -- was that your view in November of 1994? 9 A: Well, I don't think anybody really 10 had control over... 11 Q: Okay, and was that the case from the 12 very beginning in 1993 or over time -- 13 A: Well, I took my marching orders from 14 -- from Maynard George. 15 Q: Okay, you did at the beginning in 16 1993? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did everybody take their marching 19 orders from Maynard T. George? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay, was there somebody else that 24 was leading the occupiers back in May of 1993? 25 A: It could have been. But it wasn't
1361 me. 2 Q: Okay. You took your marching orders 3 from Maynard T. George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Who did Carl George take his orders 6 from? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: Okay. Do you know who any of the 9 other occupiers took their orders from? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Okay. Now, as we progress, and you 12 were there in 1994, were you still taking your orders 13 from Maynard T. George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay, and did you at that point in 16 time notice anybody else taking a leadership role? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay, at any point in time did you 19 notice Carl George taking a leadership role? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: What about Glenn George? At some 25 point in time did Glenn George assume a leadership role?
1371 A: No. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now you mentioned Russ and Les Jewel, 6 and I believe Les Jewel you described him as Glenn 7 George's friend. 8 Did I understand that correctly? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And was Les Jewel staying with 11 Glenn George once you had actually occupied the built-up 12 area? 13 A: I don't know where he stayed. He was 14 -- maybe he stayed in the bus, I don't know. Like, I 15 know he was with Glenn a bit, but like I said, they came 16 and went. 17 Q: Okay, sorry, I can't quite hear you. 18 I think you may have said, he stayed with Glenn a bit, 19 but I may have misheard you. 20 A: Well, I can't move this thing. Well, 21 he wasn't there all the -- always, all the time. He was 22 just there, so I don't really know where he stayed. I 23 was at the back. I was way at the back, no, we don't 24 have that -- but I was at the back and I didn't -- I 25 couldn't see what was going on in front.
1381 I didn't see who -- who slept where or 2 who, you know, I didn't see any of that so I -- I can't 3 say that he was constantly with Glenn, but I said he was 4 a friend of Glenn's. But, he came and -- and I don't 5 know who he stayed with. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: But, I know his sister came. She was 8 always there like on Sundays. He could have came with 9 her on Sundays. 10 Q: Okay. I appreciate you -- you may 11 not know where he was at all times, but was it your 12 understanding that at least occasionally he stayed with 13 Glenn George? 14 A: I'm not sure. 15 Q: Okay. Now, we've heard from other 16 witnesses about a meeting that took place on August 1st, 17 1995 at the Kettle Point Reserve; that it was the Kettle 18 Point and Stony Point Council and their Chief who held a 19 meeting for the community to discuss the fact that the 20 occupiers had taken over the built-up area the previous 21 Saturday. 22 Now, did you know about that meeting that 23 was being held by the Kettle Point and Stony Point 24 Council? 25 A: I -- I'm missing something here. Do
1391 you mean the people that were -- the occupiers who called 2 themselves Stoney Point people or do you -- who do you -- 3 who are you talking about? 4 Q: I'm sorry. Perhaps my question 5 wasn't clear. After the occupiers took over the built-up 6 area, which I understand was on a Saturday and July 7 29th -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- I understand that after that the 10 Stony Point and Kettle Point council with their chief, 11 Tom Bressette, decided to hold a meeting to discuss that 12 issue. 13 Now, did you know about that meeting? 14 A: Is that when they had different 15 dignitaries there or? 16 Q: I don't believe so. I don't think 17 that's the meeting we're talking about. Perhaps I could 18 take to a newspaper article where you are quoted and that 19 might help refresh your memory. 20 A: Okay. Because there was many 21 meetings there. 22 Q: Okay. If we turn to Tab 1, and 23 unfortunately this article is not dated, Mr. 24 Commissioner, but based on facts that are -- or I should 25 say based on the facts that are recorded in the article,
1401 it appears to be some time shortly after the takeover of 2 the built-up area. 3 Now, if we look at the middle column, 4 halfway down, there's a -- there's a bold heading that 5 says, Sixteen Hundred (1600) Members. And if we just 6 scroll down that column to the last full paragraph it 7 reads: 8 "Stoney Point Natives who had taken 9 possession of the camp Saturday, had 10 said they would not attend the 11 meeting." 12 And the meeting that's being referred to 13 is -- is the meeting that we've previously heard evidence 14 about that took place on August 1st, 1995. And 15 continuing with the article: 16 "None was available for comment 17 Tuesday. But Monday, Rose Manning, a 18 Stoney Point Elder living at the army 19 camp said the group will not leave." 20 So, this article is talking about a 21 meeting that took place on August 1st, 1995. And the 22 reporter is reporting that the occupiers knew about the 23 meeting but decided they wouldn't attend. 24 Do you recall any discussions after you 25 took over the built-up area about a meeting at Kettle
1411 Point and whether or not somebody from your group would 2 attend? 3 A: Not that particular meeting because 4 when we first got there we had a lot of -- a lot of our 5 own things to take care of. We were still dealing with 6 Army personnel and -- and I wasn't aware of a meeting in 7 -- in Kettle Point. 8 Q: Okay. Now, you also told us about 9 the day that a councillor from Kettle Point came and 10 attempted to deliver something which you thought was a 11 binder and you assumed was filled with notices. 12 And you indicated that you didn't know 13 that councillor's name at the time. Did you recognize 14 him however as being a councillor from the Kettle and 15 Stony Point Council? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. So, you didn't know his name, 18 did you recognize him at all? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Well, I have about two (2) or three 23 (3) people in mind, but I don't know which one it was. 24 It was just -- like I say, it was a spur of the moment 25 thing they dropped some -- just to throw a bundle out,
1421 like -- like a mail man would. 2 They threw this bundle out and one of the 3 kids grabbed it and threw it back in the truck. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: So, I don't know what it contained 6 and I had no -- like I said, I had no conversation with 7 the person other than he had a green truck. 8 Q: Okay. Did you understand, however, 9 that that person was a representative of the Kettle and 10 Stony Point council or was he just a native -- 11 A: He could have been just sent there to 12 deliver a -- deliver the papers. 13 Q: Okay. But did you understand -- 14 A: But, I -- I thought -- I presumed 15 this is my own thinking, I presumed that he was a 16 councillor, but now knowing the Council, they always send 17 somebody else to -- to deliver their papers. They don't 18 deliver them themselves. 19 Q: Okay. But, on that day, was it your 20 understanding that he was somebody who had been sent by 21 the Kettle and Stony Point Council? 22 A: Well, I didn't really think about it. 23 I just -- I wasn't -- I didn't go into deep meditation 24 and say, and think, you know -- just remember, I was in a 25 position, myself, that I -- I had -- I was thinking, now,
1431 like, why -- what I have done? You know, what did I do 2 here? What am I doing now and what's going to happen? 3 Those were going through -- this was going 4 through my mind at all times. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: At all times when I was there. And 7 did I do the right thing? Those were the things that 8 were going through my mind. 9 And I wasn't worrying about something that 10 was happening elsewhere, because I was invited to several 11 places and I never went because of things that I had to 12 sort through. 13 But, I -- it could have very well been. 14 Q: Okay. You didn't think he was there 15 from the Muncie reserve, for example, or the Oneida 16 reserve? 17 A: Well, he could have been, because 18 they certainly were around there in great big groups 19 bringing all kinds of propaganda and all kinds of letters 20 and everything else. 21 He could have been from Oneida, he could 22 have been from Muncie, he could have been from Walpole, 23 he could have been from Saugeen, he could have been from 24 anywhere. 25 Q: Do you remember him asking to speak
1441 with Glenn George? 2 A: He never asked to speak to anyone. 3 He just dropped the papers off. He never said, Could you 4 give those to Glenn George. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: What he should have done is taken 7 them to the -- to the main gate. 8 I wasn't at the main gate. It was a few - 9 - a ways from the main gate. 10 Q: You also briefly discussed burial 11 grounds in the -- 12 A: Pardon? 13 Q: You also briefly discussed burial 14 grounds in the Provincial Park -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- and you indicated that you had 17 actually gone looking for them at one point in time. 18 When was that? 19 A: It was some times during my stay. I 20 don't know whether it was -- it wasn't when I first 21 arrived. It was maybe after towards -- when I read this 22 article. 23 And when -- and when -- when I was in 24 negotiations and I -- I was given this binder to read and 25 I was reading up on Kettle -- the Stoney Point -- I was
1451 only interested in Stoney Point, so I was reading the 2 things of -- on Stoney Point of where -- of different 3 things that happened. 4 And I seen my father's name, and he was 5 saying we have to put a fence around those burial 6 grounds, and that's the only reason I went trying to look 7 for the burial grounds, is after he -- I remember him 8 talking about them, but I thought, well, you know, he's 9 just talking. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: He's just talking just to be saying 12 something, but I seen them in the archives, so. 13 Q: And that was after the events of 14 September 6th, 1995 then? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: More than likely. 19 Q: Because your role in the negotiating 20 team was after the events of September 6th, 1995? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now you also testified about a 23 discussion that you had with Les Jewel about whether or 24 not the Park should be occupied. 25 Do you recall who else was present when
1461 you and Les Jewel were having that discussion? 2 A: Les Jewel -- I never discussed 3 anything with Les Jewel. He was a few feet away but I -- 4 I recognized him and -- but I don't know the children he 5 was with. They were just young -- young boys. 6 And he said, because of the harassment on 7 our side, he said, we should go in and we should go in 8 there and we should ask them to leave right -- right 9 away. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And I said, don't do it because they 12 were just young fellows. They weren't very old. 13 Q: So -- 14 A: But I don't know their -- I don't 15 know their names. 16 Q: That's fine. So you -- you overheard 17 this discussion that Les Jewel was having with some young 18 guys? 19 A: Yes, they were just passing in front 20 of me. I was there for another reason. I was there 21 because of Marlene. 22 Q: Okay. And you said one of the 23 reasons they talked about going in was because of 24 harassment? Did you -- did you understand that one of 25 the reasons why they wanted to take the Provincial Park
1471 was to establish a boundary? 2 A: I don't quite understand what you're 3 saying. 4 Q: Okay. When you overhead this 5 discussion about taking over the Provincial Park, I 6 understood you to say that -- 7 A: They were going to ask the police to 8 leave is what I'm -- is what I said. Because they were 9 over on our side harassing the people on our side. And 10 they were suppose to stay on the other side of the fence 11 and we were suppose to stay on our side and we wouldn't 12 have no -- 13 Q: Okay. But this was before the Park 14 was taken over on September 4th; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So when you talk about a fence, are 17 you talking about where Matheson Road comes down to the 18 beach? 19 A: Oh no. I'm talking about near the 20 beach. There was -- they had it all -- they had a fence 21 all around it -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- and they had a barbed wire fence 24 on top so you couldn't jump over or anything. 25 Q: So that was separating the Provincial
1481 Park beach from the Army camp beach? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now, Ms. Manning, I want to 4 put to you a statement that you may have made to a 5 reporter about the takeover of the Provincial Park and it 6 is at Tab 35 of the document brief. 7 And although this is an article from 1998, 8 in it you are apparently quoted with reference to events 9 that happened back in 1995. 10 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: So I know, Mr. 11 Commissioner, that we had referred to this order -- this, 12 thank you, it's Exhibit 27. We had referred to this 13 article earlier and you were somewhat cautious about its 14 use. 15 But if we could turn to the last page of 16 the article, the very last paragraph. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 19 Q: And Ms. Manning, this is apparently 20 after you had left the Army camp. You'll recall that 21 some of the lawyers were asking you questions about an 22 article where you and Nellie Rogers were talking about 23 the reason why you had left the army camp? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. So in that same article, the
1491 very last paragraph of that article, the reporter writes: 2 "Rose Manning made it clear she did not 3 support the Provincial Park takeover 4 "outside agitators" began to influence 5 events in the area she suggested." 6 Now, do you recall telling the reporters 7 that day that you had not supported the occupation of the 8 Provincial Park and that in fact the occupation had been 9 the result of outside agitators? 10 Do you remember saying that to the 11 reporters? 12 A: I could have said anything and they 13 could have written anything down. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: We all know that the way they -- they 16 tend to add -- add their own comments, you know, to make 17 a good ending. 18 Q: Okay. Well, was it your view that 19 the takeover of the Provincial Park had been the result 20 of outside agitators? 21 A: Well, I don't really know. I'm -- 22 I'm not -- I'm not too familiar with the Park. You don't 23 see my name all smeared all over the Park. It was -- it 24 was -- as far as I was concerned, you know, I -- I never 25 said I was going to take over the Park and that's why I
1501 kind of kept out of the Park area, but I was there to 2 support. 3 I -- I went in not too many times, but I 4 was in there to support, but in my mind, that would have 5 came later hadn't we been fired upon. And they probably 6 would have killed more people if -- if they wanted to 7 because, you know, they were all sharpshooters out there 8 and those people didn't have -- they were just young kids 9 and children. I know I was comforting those little kids. 10 Q: But, I do want to ask you about how 11 often you were in the Provincial Park after it was taken 12 over? 13 I understand from your evidence this 14 morning that after you went in, in support on the evening 15 of September 4th, that you weren't in the Park after 16 that; is that correct? 17 A: Oh, I was in -- in the Park; I went 18 in there to make phone calls and -- and -- but I wasn't 19 there too much, no, I wasn't because what really happened 20 was I took Gail during the -- when the police came that 21 night. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I had -- I had a nervous breakdown, 24 so I wasn't able to participate like I maybe should have 25 or maybe that was -- I had done my own -- my part.
1511 Q: Now, when you made your phone calls, 2 was that from the Park store? 3 A: Park store? No, it was from that 4 maintenance building. 5 Q: Okay, were you ever in the Park 6 store? 7 A: Yes, I was -- I looked around in and 8 I wasn't inside. I was in there when it -- it was -- to 9 go and buy things. 10 Q: Okay, but after the Park was taken 11 over by your group, did you go into the Park store? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: Okay. And did you remove anything 14 from the Park store? 15 A: No, not I, personally. There was 16 nothing to remove. They took everything. There wasn't 17 even a stick of gum left there, so they -- they were 18 moving -- they were moved out. 19 Q: When you say -- 20 A: So, that's why I say, this was a 21 setup all along, because that's why... 22 Q: When you say, "They took everything," 23 do you mean the MNR or do you mean your fellow -- 24 A: Whoever owned the store, I don't 25 know, who owned the store, probably.
1521 Q: Okay. Did you see any of your fellow 2 occupiers take anything out of the store? 3 A: Well, we took -- I didn't take it, 4 personally, but somebody brought a -- somebody in a brown 5 truck brought an old freezer to my house. 6 Q: To your house? Was that a family 7 member that had taken the freezer to your house? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Who was it? 10 A: He was just a young kid, his name is 11 Jeff Elijah. 12 Q: Okay. Because I -- I just wanted to 13 let you know that when Glenn George was here and when he 14 testified, he indicated that you had taken a freezer out 15 of the Park store? 16 A: Me; that I have taken it? This 17 freezer is about, I'd say, this big. It was a -- and it 18 was -- not one (1) -- not one (1) person -- not -- not 19 myself could lift a freezer. 20 Q: Okay. Did you ask somebody to take 21 the freezer out and bring it to your house? 22 A: No, I didn't. Who -- who should I 23 have asked? 24 Q: Well, perhaps, the young man who 25 actually did it. Did you ask him to bring you the
1531 freezer? 2 A: No, I didn't know there was a freezer 3 there. He just seen it lying about and threw it in the 4 car as did some other people that took some -- there was 5 only one (1) freezer there. 6 Q: Okay. So, some other people took 7 other things out of the store? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: What -- what did you -- what do you 10 know about that? 11 A: I don't know anything other than what 12 came into my house and I left -- I think I left it behind 13 when I left. It was just something to use. 14 So if you want -- if you want it, it's 15 still out there. 16 Q: You also spoke about your meeting 17 with Mr. French on the evening of September 6th, and as I 18 understood your evidence, you knew in advance that Mr. 19 French was going to come and meet with you and your 20 family that evening; is that correct? 21 A: Well, I didn't really -- really know, 22 I know that someone was coming. I didn't know it was Mr. 23 French or -- but I know there was somebody coming that 24 was supposed to -- supposedly going to help us... 25 Q: Do you know who set up that meeting
1541 with Mr. French? 2 A: Maynard. 3 Q: Okay. And you indicated that your 4 family and the Cloud family were, I think you said, 5 cooking in preparation for the dinner. 6 Were the -- was anybody from the George 7 family in attendance at that dinner or -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- that meeting? 10 A: No, there wasn't. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There was just the people that went 13 in the first -- the people that went -- that -- there was 14 a group of us that went in on our own. 15 There wasn't a -- we had no George. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Just Clifford George, but he wasn't 18 cooking up anything. 19 Q: All right. Do you know if either 20 Glenn George or Roderick George knew about the fact that 21 this person was coming to meet with you? 22 A: No, they didn't. 23 Q: Okay. Did either of the Jewel 24 brothers know that this individual -- 25 A: No, they didn't, as far as I'm
1551 concerned. I don't -- they didn't know anything about 2 it. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Manning, those 4 are all of my questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you very 11 much, Mrs. Manning for your time. I have no further 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much, Mrs. Manning. You're finished now -- 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've 17 answered all the questions that everybody has and are 18 free to leave. Thank you very much. 19 THE WITNESS: I hope they're all happy 20 now. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you as well,
1561 Mrs. Manning, for coming. 2 Commissioner, after lunch we will be 3 calling Mr. Sam George. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 6 adjourned until 1:45. 7 8 --- Upon recessing at 12:23 p.m. 9 --- Upon resuming at 1:46 p.m. 10 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 12 resumed. Please be seated. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 14 Commissioner, the Commission calls as its next witness 15 Maynard Donald Sam George. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 18 George. 19 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Could you please give us 21 your name in full for the record? 22 THE WITNESS: Maynard Donald George, also 23 known as, "Sam". 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. I 25 understand you wish to affirm?
1571 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 2 3 MAYNARD DONALD GEORGE, Affirmed 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 afternoon, Mr. George, I think I've seen you before. 7 THE WITNESS: Once or twice anyway. 8 9 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. George, your parents were Mr. 11 Reginald George; is that correct? 12 A: Yes -- 13 Q: Your father? 14 A: Reginald George, Sr. 15 Q: Yes. And your father died on April 16 the 13th, 1986? 17 A: Yes, he did. 18 Q: And your mother was Genevieve George? 19 A: Yes, Genevieve. Her maiden name was, 20 Rogers. 21 Q: Maiden name was, Rogers. And your 22 mother passed away on August the 2nd, 1971? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And in your family, there were -- 25 there are a number of children in your family, including
1581 your brother Dudley George and the oldest was your sister 2 Karen? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And I understand your sister Karen 5 passed away in a car accident in 1969? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And she was followed by your brother 8 Michael Patrick? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And Michael Patrick died as a baby? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then there's your -- your brother 13 Reg who is three (3) years older than you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you were born, I understand, on 16 July 1st, 1952? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And then after Reg, there's your 19 sister Carolyn? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Carolyn is two (2) years older 22 than you? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And then there's you. And you were 25 born, as I said, on July 1st, 1952. Then your next
1591 younger sibling is Pierre. And Pierre one (1) year 2 younger than you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then your sister Joan? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And then your brother Dudley? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And Dudley was born on March 17th, 9 1957? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then there's your brother David 12 and your brother David was one (1) year younger than 13 Dudley? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And your brother David passed away in 16 1980? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: And then David -- the next younger 19 sibling was your sister Sam -- sister Pam -- excuse me, 20 Pam? It's your sister Pam; is that correct? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And then the youngest in your family 23 was your brother Lavern, who was born in 1962 and was 24 adopted by your parents? 25 A: Yes.
1601 Q: And you're married to Veronica? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you have three (3) children? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: The oldest is Tammy, who was born in 6 February of 1970? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then Yvonne? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And she was born in 1971, I think? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And then Donald Jr., who was born in 13 1975? 14 A: 1974. 15 Q: '74, excuse me. And I also 16 understand that you have five (5) grandchildren? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: Your daughter Tammy has three (3)? 19 A: Three (3) grandsons. 20 Q: And your daughter Yvonne has -- 21 A: Two (2) grandsons. 22 Q: Two (2) grandsons. So, they're all - 23 - there are five (5) grandsons in the family? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, the -- your father grew up at
1611 Stoney Point; is that correct? 2 A: He grew up to in Stoney Point until 3 1942. 4 Q: Yes. And in 1942 I think he was 5 approximately sixteen (16) years old. 6 A: It would be around that age, yes. 7 Q: And as a result of the appropriation 8 of the land by the Government under the War Measures Act, 9 he and his family moved to Kettle Point? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And I understand that your parents of 12 both your mother and your father were members of the 13 Canadian Armed Forces? 14 A: Yes, they were. 15 Q: And they joined the Canadian Armed 16 Forces during the war, the Second World War? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And in fact that's where your parents 19 met? 20 A: That's my understanding, they -- they 21 met. 22 Q: And after the war your parents were 23 married in January of 1947. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: I think it was January 17th, 1947?
1621 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And the -- after your parents were 3 married, they lived for a period of time at Kettle Point; 4 is that correct? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And when you were born in 1952, you 7 were born while your parents were living at Kettle Point? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in 1955 your parents moved to the 10 Sarnia First Nation in Sarnia; is that correct? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And your moth -- your mother came 13 from the Sarnia First Nation? 14 A: Yes, she was a member of Sarnia First 15 Nations. 16 Q: And you lived in Sarnia at the Sarnia 17 First Nation until your family returned to -- to Kettle 18 Point in 1966? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And I understand that when your 21 family returned to Kettle Point your parents built a new 22 house? 23 A: No. When we moved back to Kettle 24 Point we moved into our grandmother's house. 25 Q: And the -- then at -- there was a
1631 fire in -- was it in that house the fire took place? 2 A: Yes, it was. 3 Q: And your grandmother's house was -- 4 was burned down? 5 A: It was -- it wasn't totally burned 6 down. The inside of it was burnt out. 7 Q: And that house was then rebuilt? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And then some time after that 10 unfortunately there was a second fire? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And the -- after the second fire, I 13 understand that the house was not rebuilt? 14 A: No it wasn't rebuilt at that time. 15 Q: And in 1970 your father and mother 16 moved to Forest? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the -- and lived -- your father 19 lived in Forest until he passed away in 1986? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And I think your father was -- I 22 believe he was -- he drove a transport truck? 23 A: Yes, he did. 24 Q: And the -- your mother passed away 25 after your family had moved to Forest?
1641 A: Yes. 2 Q: And when you were growing up, did you 3 have -- did your father discuss with you Stoney Point? 4 A: He would discuss Stoney Point with us 5 mostly we asked him any questions about it. It didn't 6 seem to be really common around the house. 7 Q: So, when you asked him about it, he 8 would answer questions? 9 A: Yes. He would answer the questions 10 we asked him. 11 Q: And when you moved back to Kettle 12 Point from the Sarnia First Nation, you were 13 approximately fourteen (14) years old? 14 A: Some place around there. 15 Q: And the -- when you returned your 16 friends were your cousins -- the people you socialized 17 with initially were your cousins? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: There was Vint -- your cousin Vince 20 George? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Your cousin Ron George? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Your cousin Luke George 25 A: Yes.
1651 Q: And your cousin Roderick George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And as I understand it, your family 4 lived between the house of your uncle -- uncle Robert 5 George, Senior? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your uncle Abraham George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And your uncle Robert George, Senior, 10 his nickname was Nobby? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And your uncle Greg -- Abraham 13 George, his nickname was Hamster? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: And the -- when -- I understand that 16 you and Veronica were married in the early '70's; is that 17 correct? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And that you did not live with the 20 family when the family moved to Forest, into the house in 21 Forest? 22 A: I lived there for a very short period 23 of time. 24 Q: Very short period of time? And I 25 understand as well, that you had -- you dropped out of
1661 school in Grade 10. You had been attending North Lambton 2 High School and -- or Grade 10 and then dropped out? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you dropped out because you 5 needed to support your own family? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And I understand that you worked in 8 road construction until 1977? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And in 1977, you -- actually, I may 11 have that incorrect. It was 1972 you worked on road 12 construction. 13 When did you start the training program 14 for being a carpenter? 15 A: That was around 1972. 16 Q: 1972? And while you were doing the 17 train -- training program, you were as well, working on 18 road construction? 19 A: No, I was just strictly on the 20 training program -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- for that period of time. 23 Q: And in 1974, you got your papers as a 24 journeyman carpenter? 25 A: That's right.
1671 Q: And you joined the United Brotherhood 2 of Carpenters and Joiners in Sarnia? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And you worked as a carpenter from 5 1974 to 1984? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And in 1984, you injured your back 8 and had to stop working as a carpenter? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, as well, I understand that in 11 1984, you, while at -- you were living after -- after you 12 got married, did you live at Kettle Point with your wife 13 and children? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And the -- while you were living at 16 Kettle Point, you finished your Grade 12 equivalency; is 17 that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you -- after you stopped working 20 in 1985, you applied for and were hired as the -- as an 21 educational councillor for the Kettle and Stony Point 22 First Nation? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you tell us what you did as 25 educational councillor, Mr. George?
1681 A: Well, some of my duties as -- working 2 with the education councillors is I would come into the 3 schools and I would work with any of the students that -- 4 that were having any types of problems in the school, 5 whether we could to -- work along with them, maybe to 6 improve their attendance or to look at see whether or not 7 they needed any additional help with any subjects, in 8 order to help them to get through and get their diploma 9 from Grade 12. 10 Q: And those were children -- young 11 people going to school in Forest and other surrounding 12 areas, the surrounding community? 13 A: Yeah, I went to secondary schools, 14 North Lambton here in Forest and we had some students in 15 Alexander Mackenzie Secondary School in Sarnia. 16 Q: Okay. And in 1986, I understand you 17 became the Youth Employment Counsellor for the Kettle and 18 Stony Point First Nation? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And the -- can you tell us what your 21 role was as the Youth Employment Counsellor? 22 A: My duties as a Youth Employment 23 Counsellor was to work with what they called, 24 "disadvantaged youth" at the time. They were youth that 25 were fifteen (15) to twenty-four (24) years of age. They
1691 were ones that were lacking education or any type of 2 skills in order to -- to look and -- and secure some 3 meaningful employment. 4 Q: And you worked in that position from 5 1986 to 1992? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And in 1992 you became the youth 8 worker at Children And Family Services for the Kettle and 9 Stony Point First Nation? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you remain in that position 12 today? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: And can you tell us what that 15 position involved? 16 A: That position -- I work with a lot of 17 the youth, I do youth programming with them, I'll do -- 18 I'll go -- I'll work -- still work along with them as we 19 go into the schools and once I start that then I come 20 back and I start to meet with the parents so that I can 21 also let the parents know as to the type of work that I'm 22 doing with their child so they can reinforce that for 23 them at home and so it's carried on, not only inside of 24 schools, but also at home. Then I try to do activities 25 with the parents and the children to help them so that
1701 they can maintain that communications. 2 Q: Okay. And I understand that -- as 3 well, that from the fall of 1992 to 1996, you attended 4 Loyalist College, which is based in Belleville, but your 5 actual course was at Sault Ste. Marie and you were 6 studying Social Work; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that involved going to the school 9 in Sault St. Marie one (1) week every three (3) months? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And -- over the four (4) years? 12 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And you obtained your diploma in 15 Social Services work in 1996? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And I understand that your interest 18 in children, as we can see from your career, has been 19 longstanding, but you've also been involved with children 20 through acting as a volunteer for hockey and volleyball? 21 A: That's -- that's kind of where my -- 22 my career started as I was working through -- through the 23 other employment as I was -- as I was coming -- working 24 through there, I would -- started to volunteer a lot of 25 my time with the -- with the youth; coaching hockey,
1711 helping them with volleyball, setting up any type of 2 sports program I could for the -- for the people, or the 3 youth in the community. 4 Q: And that was, when you say, "youth in 5 the community," it was the wider community? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I understand that as you said, 8 when your children were young you got involved in this, 9 but you coached a hockey team? 10 A: Actually, I coached a couple of 11 hockey teams. 12 Q: Hockey teams. But, one (1) of your 13 hockey teams went to the OMHA finals; is that correct? 14 A: Yes, I can't remember the year that 15 we went, but there was a group of young fellows from -- 16 from the reserve down there. There were seven (7) 17 players on this team and we -- we made it all the way to 18 the OMHA finals in which we -- we were defeated because 19 we had lack of players. 20 Q: You only -- you had only, I think, 21 seven (7) players? 22 A: That's right. We could win half of 23 the game, but we would ran out of gas. 24 Q: And one (1) of those players, I think 25 it was a pee-wee team, that --
1721 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: Yeah. And one (1) of your players 3 was Mr. Glenn George? 4 A: Yes, Glenn was probably -- top goal 5 scorer on that team. 6 Q: And as well, you played hockey when 7 you got to be twenty-five (25) years old; is that 8 correct? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: And you played on a team, I think 11 it's in -- out of Thetford or the league was out of 12 Thetford? 13 A: Yeah, the league was located in 14 Thetford and I played for the Kettle Point Chiefs. 15 Q: And you became a coach of a mens 16 team, I think it was here in Forest? 17 A: Some of them were based out of 18 Forest, here, but we travelled around and they were also 19 teams from fellows at home. 20 Q: So, it was a team from the whole 21 community? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And I understand as well, that over 24 the years among the many things that you've done, you 25 were very interested in the traditions of your people?
1731 A: Yes, I started, I guess, back some 2 time ago, starting to learn the traditions of our people 3 and I did that through the -- several different ways. 4 Q: And can you tell us about the ways 5 that you did that, Mr. George? 6 A: I guess probably the -- the most 7 common way I got interested is that I started to pick up 8 dancing through our -- through our First Nation. And -- 9 and I -- we -- me and my wife we started to travel to 10 different pow-wows around Ontario and in the United 11 States with our children, and we did that for some years. 12 Q: And, in fact, I've put on the screen 13 and in front of you there's a green folder, Mr. George, 14 and you'll see there's three (3) photographs in there. 15 The first is this photograph and that's 16 you in the middle? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And then the second photograph is you 19 and your three (3) children? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you tell me when those 22 pictures -- those two (2) photographs were taken? 23 A: I know this picture here was taken 24 outside of the Forest Post Office up there. 25 Q: Yes.
1741 A: We were in town, we were doing some 2 type of a demonstration dance for some type of activity 3 that was handing -- that was going on in the town here. 4 I don't know the year of it. I don't 5 know, maybe my daughter would know the year of it. She's 6 sitting out there. No, she said, no. 7 But, these are my three (3) children here 8 on the board. 9 Q: And the last picture is a picture we 10 know was taken in 1986 and that was a picture of you and 11 your son, Donald? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And perhaps, Commissioner, we could 14 mark those three (3) pictures as the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-333, your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-333. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-333: Three (3) photographs of 19 "Sam" George and his children 20 in Native dress. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: As well, Mr. George, you learned to 24 be a drummer; is that correct? 25 A: That's correct, yes.
1751 Q: And you have been a drummer for many 2 years? 3 A: Some years, yes, I have been. 4 Q: And as a drummer, you participate in 5 many ceremonies, as a drummer; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, our drum is invited out to 7 different functions. We may be called to -- to sing at 8 community feasts, birthday parties, just any type of 9 activities that may go on around in the community. 10 We have a Remembrance Day celebrations or 11 Solidarity Day celebrations. I -- I -- our drum is 12 usually asked to sing at funerals in their community. 13 We just -- we've been into Toronto to sing 14 at different things. I have a group of people who are 15 dedicated to the drum and help with it and -- and we take 16 opportunities, I guess, to keep that group together and 17 we go out and do these things just to -- to have fun. 18 Q: And, in fact, your drum was at the 19 Indigenous Knowledge Forum last October? 20 A: Yes, it was. 21 Q: And, if I could turn to a different 22 subject. Among all of the things you've done, you've 23 also been a politician? 24 A: I tried. 25 Q: And you were a councillor at the
1761 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation in 1978? 2 A: Yes, I was. 3 Q: That's when you were first elected 4 and you were re-elected in 1980 and in 1982; is that 5 correct? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: And then you ran again -- were 8 elected again in 2003? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then again in 2005; just this 11 past year? 12 A: 2004. 13 Q: So, it must have been 2002 and 2004? 14 A: We're -- we're a year ahead of 15 ourselves. 16 Q: We're a year ahead of ourselves. So, 17 you were -- the next after 1982 you were elected in 2002 18 and then in 2004? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Now, I wonder if you could tell us a 21 little about your brother Dudley George. I understand 22 that when Dudley was a young man, he and your brother 23 David were very close? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And they would spend a lot of time
1771 playing -- playing together and being together? 2 A: Yes they did. They -- they spent a 3 considerable amount of time together. 4 Q: And the -- Dudley as a young man or 5 as a child was called the "Clem" by your grandfather 6 Rogers? 7 A: Yes. He -- he would call him Clem 8 and how he got that name was because, I don't know, some 9 of you may have remember the Red Skelton Show. 10 There was a hobo that was on there they 11 called him Clem Kadiddlehopper and -- and for some reason 12 he picked that name up as well. 13 Q: And your -- that was your grand -- 14 your grandfather Rogers who called him that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I understand that Dudley went to 17 school at Johnson Memorial and the Woodside Public School 18 and North Lambton Collegiate? 19 A: Yes, he did. 20 Q: And he didn't finish grade 12, but 21 after he was finished -- after he left high school some 22 time later he joined -- he entered Fanchild (phonetic) 23 College as a mature student? 24 A: Yes, he did. 25 Q: And was there -- do you know how long
1781 he was at Fanchild College? 2 A: I don't know the exact length of time 3 he was there. But I know he took general arts and 4 science. It's a subject there I guess it's -- I don't 5 think he completed that. 6 Q: And I understand that he spent time - 7 - a lot of time with your grandchildren? 8 A: He spent, not only time with my 9 grandchildren, he spent a lot of time with his nieces and 10 nephews as well. 11 Q: And can you just tell us a little 12 about -- about his life and about the things that he did? 13 A: Well, he -- he seemed to really enjoy 14 the younger ones. I know even just sitting around here 15 talking even with my sisters over the last couple of 16 days, they started to talk and remember a lot of things 17 that maybe we haven't done for -- for a while. 18 But he was also very great and loved to 19 play street hockey. He did play ice hockey himself after 20 a while. 21 He seemed to support his nieces and 22 nephews in every way he could. He would support my 23 sister's if they were away at any time, he would babysit 24 for them, help them to get off to school and get the 25 meals cooked.
1791 But, he most of all loved being outside 2 playing with them; playing baseball or any type of sports 3 that he could. 4 Q: And in fact I understand he would 5 play road hockey with your sister Pam's boys and the 6 other children in the neighbourhood and the kids called 7 him Uncle Mario. 8 A: That's right. And I think some of 9 them still look and call him that name today. 10 Q: And the -- he liked to fish with his 11 cousins? 12 A: Yes, he did. 13 Q: And he liked to cook? 14 A: Oh, he loved to cook. 15 Q: And I understand he once told Pam's 16 children that -- about how to check spaghetti. He picked 17 up a piece and threw it at the ceiling to check to see if 18 it had been cooked enough? 19 A: That's right, to see whether or not 20 it stuck there. 21 Q: And if it stuck, it -- 22 A: It was done. 23 Q: And as you said, he liked hockey and 24 he enjoyed coming to this arena, actually, on Sunday 25 afternoons to watch three (3) of his nephews play hockey?
1801 A: Yes. The town here in -- before -- I 2 mean a few years ago, they would have -- all their travel 3 teams would play on a Sunday afternoon here, and he had 4 my -- he would come out and watch my sister Joan's boy, 5 Alan, my boy Don and Pam's boy, Ian. 6 We'd spend the whole afternoon here, just 7 watching hockey. 8 Q: And he liked to watch his niece, 9 Alexis, play baseball? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I understand, as well, he liked 12 to play jokes on his nieces and nephews? 13 A: He played lots of jokes on, not only 14 his niece and nephews, but everybody. 15 Q: That was a large part of his 16 personality, was having fun and playing jokes on people? 17 A: And being social. 18 Q: And being social. That -- the -- I 19 understand as well, that he was a bit superstitious? 20 A: I think he was as well as, I guess, 21 wouldn't be any more than anybody else is, but he was 22 superstitious. 23 Q: Yeah. And when your sister went back 24 to school, Dudley would come to her house and stay with 25 his -- with the children and their father?
1811 A: Oh, yeah, he would -- yes, he would - 2 - he would come and make sure the kids got off to school 3 and if there was no one there for them at supper time, 4 he'd be there to cook their supper and watch over them, 5 until -- until Pam got home 6 Q: And the -- once his niece, Lacey 7 (phonetic), needed to collect chestnuts for a class 8 project, so he went out with her and pulled the wagon for 9 her while she collected the chestnuts? 10 A: Yes, he did. 11 Q: And he would -- if someone asked for 12 his help, he would help the person, unless he had 13 something else to do that he couldn't avoid, he would try 14 to help the person? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And there's, in front of you, in that 17 green binder -- green envelope, Mr. George, an article 18 entitled, Remembering Dudley George. 19 And this is an article that, I understand 20 some time last year, appeared in the Sarnia Observer? 21 A: Yes, it did. 22 Q: And this was written by a lady by the 23 name of Anne Kavanagh Beachey? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And she wrote this article to --
1821 about her son and his relationship with your brother? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And the article is -- I don't have an 4 electronic copy, Commissioner, but I would -- I'd like to 5 mark this as the next exhibit, so I can't put it up on 6 the screen, but the -- the article -- do you know, Ms. 7 Beachey? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: And did you -- had you ever met her 10 son, Mike? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And it talks about -- it says: 13 "In the summer of 1995, my son, Mike, 14 camped at Stoney Point and participated 15 in a protest trek to Parliament Hill in 16 Ottawa. We lived near Kettle Point so 17 he often visited for mother's cooking, 18 despite being an excellent cook 19 himself. 20 Once he brought a friend. 'Hi, Mom, 21 this is Dudley George.' 22 Dudley put his hand under my elbow and 23 shook my arm up and down. 'Hi, Mom, 24 this is an Indian handshake', he 25 grinned. I'm still not sure if he was
1831 shaking my hand or pulling my leg. 2 The guys spent the entire summer 3 together. The Army still patrolled the 4 base and Mike, who used to be a cadet, 5 would get into conversations with the 6 soldiers, persuading one (1) to allow 7 them to look through the night goggles 8 and marvel how they could see in the 9 dark as if it were daylight. 10 Mike and Dudley had pitched their tents 11 beside a little lake. Daily a flock of 12 herons arrived to feed. Dudley would 13 reel in a fish and Mike would barbecue 14 breakfast. 'I love this place.', said 15 Dudley. 'I'd die for it.' 16 But, the Elders at the Camp were 17 worried about the safety of the young 18 men in such an isolated spot and 19 commanded they move in closer. 20 Mike, raised in a Caucasian home and 21 nicknamed, an [quote] "apple" [closed 22 quote], Indian red on the outside, 23 white on the inside, was reluctant to 24 move away from the little Eden. 'We 25 got to go.', said Dudley, so they did
1841 to an old trailer someone had donated. 2 Mike brought his two (2) young sons for 3 a vacation. They spent days in the 4 lake and on the beach where the 5 soldiers who trained for D-Day. 6 Evenings were enjoyed under the stars 7 around the campfire. 8 And when summer ended, the boys went 9 home to London and Mike headed for 10 flying school in Deseronto. He was 11 just beginning the course when he got 12 the news about Dudley. I consoled him 13 by telephone." 14 And the article goes on to talk about the 15 funeral and the -- then -- and at the end it said: 16 "Mike came home for Thanksgiving. He 17 gathered up his sons and they went to 18 pay their respects at Dudley's grave, 19 taking him the Indian gifts of food and 20 tobacco. They were all emotional, but 21 young Michael, ten (10) years old broke 22 his heart and was hard to console. 23 The next morning he arrived at a -- at 24 the breakfast table with a piece of 25 clothesline slotted through the loops
1851 of his pants and tied with a reef not. 2 'What's this?', I asked, 'Have you lost 3 your belt?'. It's a Dudley belt, said 4 his father, Dudley showed them how to 5 make one. Young Michael wore that belt 6 for months, a symbol of his mourning 7 for Dudley." 8 And do you -- I note that Mrs. Beachey's 9 son, Mike, participated in the trek to Ottawa. Do you 10 know if Dudley participated in that march to Ottawa? 11 A: I think he was around there at that 12 time. I don't know how far he went, though. 13 Q: Okay. Thank you. The -- when you 14 were growing up, did you participate in any efforts with 15 respect to the Army Camp -- demonstrations at the Army 16 Camp? 17 A: I can remember one (1) -- taking part 18 in -- one (1) in 1990, I think it was, where we were 19 standing along Highway 21 slowing traffic down enough to 20 hand the people pamphlets as they went by. 21 Q: Okay. And, Commissioner, I -- I 22 thought I'd ask to have that marked as an exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-334, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-334: Sarnia Observer Article,
1861 Remembering Dudley George, by 2 Anne Kavanagh Beachey. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's the article. 6 And you were handing out pamphlets near the -- outside 7 the Army Camp? 8 A: Yeah, along Highway 21. 9 Q: Highway 21? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you would -- you handed those -- 12 those pamphlets out to people who stopped and were 13 slowing down? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I understand that as a counsellor 16 from '78 to '82, you participated with the other 17 counsellors with respect to trying to get the land back? 18 A: Yes, we did. 19 Q: And during the period of time you 20 were on Council, the package that we've heard about with 21 the Federal Government was under discussion? 22 A: Yes, it was. 23 Q: And I guess you left Council in 1984? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what was your position about the
1871 package? 2 A: My position about the package was 3 when it was being negotiated, my understanding of it was 4 that it was a -- a form of a back rent that was -- that 5 was not paid in 1942 and -- and the amount -- and it was 6 just calculated over the years and the interest added on 7 and that's where they arrived at that figure that was 8 paid to the First Nations at that time. 9 Q: And so, you were not in favour of the 10 package? 11 A: No, I -- I didn't really feel too 12 comfortable with that package. And -- and I can remember 13 when we had a -- a meeting down at the ballpark, Council 14 and -- and the members of the community and -- and I was 15 one (1) of the ones that spoke against it at that time. 16 And it was just -- I guess I had an uneasy 17 feeling about the whole -- the whole situation. 18 Q: And the package was -- was approved 19 as we've heard? 20 A: Yes, the package, it went to a 21 community vote in which the vote was in favour of the 22 package and that's how that package arrived into our 23 community. 24 Q: Okay. And prior to 1990, had you 25 visited the Army Camp?
1881 A: Not very often. 2 Q: And when you say not very often, did 3 you go on occasion? Had you been on occasion to the Army 4 Camp? 5 A: A couple of times. I -- I never 6 really went there. 7 Q: Okay. And I understand that in 1990, 8 you attended the funeral of your Uncle Dan George who was 9 buried at the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: And between 1990 and 1993, were you 12 involved with any of the discussions concerning the Army 13 Camp? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: And in 1993 were you involved in any 16 of the discussions leading up to the members of the 17 community moving onto the Army Camp? 18 A: No, I wasn't. 19 Q: And did -- when did you learn that 20 members of the community had gone onto the Army Camp in 21 1993? 22 A: I learned through the -- through the 23 media, reading stories in the paper. 24 Q: In the papers. That would be shortly 25 after the --
1891 A: It would probably be following days 2 and a day or two after that. 3 Q: After May 6th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I understand that -- well we know 6 that your brother Dudley George moved to the Camp in 1993 7 and do you know if it shortly after May 6th or on May 8 6th? 9 A: I -- I would suspect it was probably 10 right after the May 6th date that he probably moved into 11 the camp as well. 12 Q: And between May 1993, May 6th, 1993 13 and July 29th, 1995, did you visit the rifle ranges 14 yourself -- the Army Camp? 15 A: I was trying to remember that the 16 other day. I think I went down there twice. I was 17 trying to -- to remember how many times. I think it was 18 twice I was down there. 19 Q: And the -- and can you remember, Mr. 20 George, when that was? 21 A: I can't recall the dates they were. 22 Q: And the -- during the period of time 23 May 1993 to July 29th, 1995, do you -- did you have 24 discussions with your brother Dudley George about the 25 Army Camp?
1901 A: I would see him periodically but I -- 2 I can't really recall whether we had any discussions 3 about the Camp or not. We talked about different things 4 and I just can't recall. 5 Q: And I understand that on July 1st, 6 1995, you were -- had a serious accident? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: And as a result of the accident, you 9 had a severely broken leg? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And as a result of the type of break 12 it was, a bone graft had to be done by taking a bone out 13 of your hip and putting -- grafting it onto your leg? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that as a result of that injury, 16 you were laid up most of the summer of 1995? 17 A: Pretty well the whole summer. 18 Q: And prior to July 29th, 1995, did you 19 have any discussions with anyone about the -- a possible 20 move to the built-up area of the Army Camp? 21 A: No, I never. 22 Q: And how did you learn about the move 23 into the Army Camp -- the built-up area of the Army Camp 24 on July 29th, 1995? 25 A: I would see it on the TV or read it
1911 in the papers. I was pretty well confined to my 2 recliner. 3 Q: And the -- during the period July -- 4 of, well, May 1993 to July 29th, 1995, the -- were there 5 any discussions that you were aware of at Kettle and 6 Stony Point about the return of the Army Camp? 7 A: No, I can't recall any. 8 Q: Okay. But, it was a topic of -- you 9 didn't participate, but I understand that it was a topic 10 of discussion by the Chief and Council? 11 A: According to what I've seen, it was. 12 Q: And as we know, in February of '94, I 13 think it was the Federal Government announced that they 14 were going to close Camp Ipperwash? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And -- so that while you didn't 17 negotiate -- participate in the negotiations you knew 18 they were going on and what was the -- did you have a 19 sense of the view of the -- the people in the community 20 about those discussions with -- about the Army Camp? 21 A: No, I never really got involved 22 through them period -- through that period of time. I do 23 remember when the announcement did come down and I do 24 remember the people were happy that -- that they were 25 finally going to get back the Stoney Point lands.
1921 Q: And, as I understand it, people over 2 the next period of time, the next year and year and a 3 half, were concerned about the length of time it was 4 taking to get these negotiations under way, or bring them 5 to fruition? 6 A: There was a concern, because once the 7 announcement was made, the people were very excited about 8 -- about the returns of them lands, and they were 9 starting to wonder, you know, when the clean-ups of these 10 lands were going to start to take place, or even when 11 they would actually get the lands back into First Nations 12 hands. 13 Q: All right. And prior to -- in the 14 summer of 1995, when the -- prior to September 4th, 1995, 15 did you have any discussions with your brother, Dudley 16 George? 17 A: I had one (1). 18 Q: Yes, can you... 19 A: Well, it was -- it was a Sunday 20 morning. I was sitting there, I was having my coffee and 21 he knocked on the door and he come in the house. And he 22 come over and he looked at me and he says, you know, he 23 says, I just heard about your leg, he says, so he just 24 come in to see -- see how I was doing and talked a little 25 bit about, you know, what he was doing down there.
1931 And he didn't stay very long and then he 2 was already to get up and go again. 3 Q: And what did he -- do you recall what 4 he told you about what he was doing down there? 5 A: He was mostly -- he mostly talked to 6 me in, again I'm trying to -- to recall what we actually 7 talked about, but as I -- as I think about it, he was 8 talking about getting a chain saw and a truck so that he 9 could get wood for the next winter. 10 Q: And do you recall anything else about 11 that conversation? 12 A: The only other thing I can recall 13 about that conversation was when he was getting ready to 14 leave, I told him to be careful down there. I told him 15 if, for any reasons anything was happening, to get the 16 heck out of there. 17 Q: And I know that this is difficult, 18 Mr. George, but if I could take you back in time. In 19 1980, when David died, can you tell us the effect, if 20 any, of David's death on Dudley? 21 A: That death, when it occurred was 22 very, very hard on Dudley. We'd just come through a 23 period of time where we had lost our oldest sister, our 24 mother, and these two (2) guys had been very close since 25 then.
1941 All our -- all our lives they'd been 2 close. And when that -- David died, it seemed to take a 3 lot out of Dudley. And from that point on we noticed the 4 change in Dudley. We noticed how, from there, he started 5 to wander more and he just -- he just -- like he lost 6 something. And he was looking for something. 7 Q: When you say he began to wander more, 8 can you tell us what you mean by that? 9 A: Well, he would be around in different 10 places a little more. I -- I know we have had people 11 tell us from time to time he'd be picked up hitchhiking; 12 he'd be going someplace but he would go and he wouldn't 13 stay too long. 14 Q: And was there any other change that 15 you observed in him? 16 A: That was probably the biggest change 17 that -- that we noticed -- I noticed in him. He -- he 18 still had his sense of humour, he never ever lost that. 19 But, you could almost feel or see that there was 20 something else missing. 21 I don't think that -- or I think maybe he 22 -- even though he would not come right out and say it, 23 that he may have been feeling that pain of -- of our 24 people that have left us; our mother, our sister, his 25 brother.
1951 Q: And the -- on September 4th, 1995, on 2 Labour Day, were you still recovering from your leg 3 injury? 4 A: Yes, I was. 5 Q: And some time at the beginning of -- 6 towards the beginning of September, you began therapy on 7 your leg in Sarnia; is that correct? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And was it before or after, do you 10 recall, the takeover of the Park on September 4th? 11 A: It would have been shortly before. 12 Q: And you would -- you had a travelling 13 companion who went to therapy at the same time in Sarnia? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: And that was your cousin Luke George. 16 A: Yes. He had had his knee operated on 17 and -- because I hadn't been out and he hadn't been out 18 from his operation that we really didn't know each other 19 had -- had sore legs, so all of a sudden we ended up at 20 therapy one day. So from that point on, we started to 21 ride together. 22 Q: And your cousin Luke George at -- at 23 the time was a member of the Ontario Provincial Police? 24 A: Yes, he was. 25 Q: As was your cousin Vince George?
1961 A: Yes. 2 Q: And while he wasn't at the time, he 3 had been your cousin Ronald George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And your cousin Ronald George is 6 again a member of the Ontario Provincial Police? 7 A: Yes, he is. 8 Q: As are -- and they're brothers aren't 9 they, Luke, Vince and Ron? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And can you tell us how you learned 12 about the takeover of the Provincial Park? 13 A: I learned about it through the media. 14 I would watch TV, I would read the papers. And that 15 would -- that's about how I learned what was going on. 16 Q: And did you attend at the Provincial 17 Park after September 4th? 18 A: I think I went by one morning. My 19 brother-in-law had come along and picked me up and we 20 went for breakfast and when we were coming back from -- 21 from Northville, we went down by there just to see what 22 was going on. 23 Q: You drove down Army Camp Road and 24 onto East Parkway? 25 A: Yes. Yes, we did.
1971 Q: And you didn't stop and go into the 2 Park? 3 A: No, I never. 4 Q: And were you aware that Dudley was in 5 the Park? 6 A: No, I wasn't aware he was in there. 7 Q: And had you had any discussions with 8 your sister Carolyn about the Army Camp and the 9 occupation of the Army Camp prior to September 4th, 1995? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Or your brother, Pierre? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And the -- from September 4th to 14 September 6th, did you have any discussions with your 15 brother Dudley? 16 A: No, I never. 17 Q: Or Carolyn? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And on September the 6th, can you 20 tell us how you learned that something had happened at -- 21 outside the Park? 22 A: On the evening of September the 6th, 23 I was, again, watching the news; Gustafson Lake was 24 taking place in British Columbia. I was watching what 25 was going on down at the Park at that time and I had -- I
1981 had the phone call. And I'm not really sure on -- on 2 what time that phone call come in; I know it was after 3 11:00. 4 And it was a phone call from -- from 5 somebody who I don't know. They never identified 6 themselves or nothing and all they told me that Dudley 7 had been shot and they had taken him to Strathroy 8 Middlesex Hospital. 9 Q: And what did you, then, do? 10 A: I grabbed my crutches. I was already 11 ready for -- to -- to go to sleep for the evening just 12 after watching the news, so I grabbed my crutches, I went 13 down the hall. My wife was already sleeping. I woke her 14 up. I told her Dudley got shot. I says, We got to go to 15 the hospital. She got dressed, my son got dressed, we 16 jumped in my van and we took off for Strathroy. 17 Q: And when you got to Strathroy 18 Hospital, what -- can you tell us what happened when you 19 arrived outside the hospital? What did you observe? 20 A: When I pulled into Strathroy, we 21 started to notice the police cars, but once we got to the 22 hospital there was a -- there was a lot of police cars 23 outside of that hospital. I pulled up outside of the 24 Emergency doors; I got out. They told me to get my van 25 out of there, so I asked my son to go park my van. Me
1991 and my wife, we went inside of the hospital at that 2 point. 3 Q: And do you have any recollection as 4 to the time that you arrived at the hospital? 5 A: The closest my timing would be, I 6 know it was after eleven o'clock that evening. I didn't 7 bother to watch any clocks, any speedometers, nothing; I 8 just headed straight for that hospital. 9 Q: And when you arrived at the hospital 10 and you went into the hospital, what happened? 11 A: When I went into the hospital, me and 12 my wife, we were greeted by a -- and -- and I -- I still 13 use the expression a -- a nurse or a nun, but I think I 14 have things -- different hospitals confused there with - 15 - anyway, they sent us into a little room so they could 16 talk to us. And being in that type of a situation 17 before, I knew exactly what they were going to tell me at 18 that point. 19 Q: And when you went in and the person 20 met you, had you announced who you were or how did the 21 person come to realize that she should -- that you were 22 you, that you were a relative? 23 A: I had asked where my brother was. 24 Q: Okay. And you spoke to the nurse and 25 asked how your brother Dudley was?
2001 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the nurse, then, took you into 3 this quiet room? 4 A: Yeah, they directed us into that 5 room. 6 Q: And what happened when you and your 7 wife Veronica were in the quiet room? 8 A: I think my sister Pam had arrived at 9 the hospital there, too, at that time, but once we were 10 in there, they -- they, in fact, informed us that Dudley 11 had passed -- passed away at that time. 12 Q: And the -- and who told you that 13 Dudley had passed away? 14 A: I can't remember the person's name; 15 it was a -- it was a female. I'm not too sure whether 16 she was a doctor or she was a nurse. I didn't bother, 17 again, to -- to get any names or if they did give me 18 their names, I just can't recall what it was. 19 Q: And did you -- when you were in the 20 hospital, either before or after you were in the quiet 21 room, speak to Nicholus Cotrelle? 22 A: When they directed and asked us to go 23 that room, when I was going by I noticed Nick -- Nick 24 lying there on a gurney on his -- he was lying on his 25 stomach, so I stuck my head in there and asked him how he
2011 was doing and he said he was -- he was doing okay. But, 2 I -- I really didn't know what had happened to him at 3 that time, but with -- and what type of treatment he was 4 receiving, so after he told me he was okay, I just 5 continued to that room. 6 Q: And, Nicholus Cotrelle was -- where 7 was he located, in a large emergency room or can you 8 recall? 9 A: I can't recall. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: He was in the hospital. 12 Q: And after you were told about the 13 death of your brother Dudley, what did you do? 14 A: After we were told about -- about 15 Dudley it -- it took a few minutes, I guess, to -- to 16 kind of settle in with -- with myself, my sister, my 17 wife, and once we did that we asked if -- if we could, in 18 fact, go in and -- and see Dudley at that point. 19 Q: Yes, and...? 20 A: We had to get permission to go in 21 there. The examination where -- where they had him, 22 there were two (2) officers outside the door. 23 Q: And so, when you asked to see -- when 24 you asked to see your brother, that permission was 25 granted?
2021 A: Yes, it was. 2 Q: And you went in and saw your 3 brother's body? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: We went in, I kind of had it in -- 6 you know, it -- it's -- it's sometimes... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Would you like to take a few minutes? 11 We could have the afternoon break, Mr. George? 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: Why don't we do that, sir? 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 2:48 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 3:12 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Mr. George, the -- when you visited 25 your brother's -- visited your brother, did you do
2031 anything when you were with your brother? 2 A: Yes. Once -- once we were allowed to 3 -- to go in and see him, we did, in fact, go in and -- 4 and he was lying there on a gurney, he was still kind of 5 sandy. We did manage to see the bullet wound in which 6 there was still a little bit of blood coming out of that 7 -- that wound at that time. 8 After -- we stayed with him for -- for a 9 little period of time there. I asked permission of -- of 10 some of the hospital staff to -- whether or not I could 11 do -- I could smudge his body down. 12 We do this -- this type of a ceremony to - 13 - to start to cleanse him. We knew at that point that -- 14 that was just his body that was there. His spirit had -- 15 had already started to do what it has to do from that 16 period of time. 17 So, in fact, they give me permission to do 18 that and I had to send my son outside to -- to actually 19 light the smudge from him because we couldn't use that 20 spark in that room because of the oxygen. 21 But, they did give me that opportunity and 22 I did smudge him down so that he could start that -- that 23 process in -- in -- I'm not too sure who I spoke to after 24 that, but I asked him if we could -- they could inform us 25 when his body would be released, then we started back for
2041 home. 2 Q: And the significance of the smudging 3 ceremony is to -- is this part of the -- in affect the 4 burial ceremony? 5 A: Yes. That's -- that's probably to 6 start that cleansing process for -- for that body and to 7 help that spirit now that it was going to start to -- to 8 prepare itself to make that journey back to the spirit 9 world. 10 Q: Okay. And after that, you left the 11 hospital? 12 A: Yes. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, that 14 might be an appropriate place to stop for the day. It's 15 a few minutes early, but we have -- we'll go switching to 16 another topic. 17 THE WITNESS: I could probably keep going 18 until about 8:00. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 I think that's fine. We'll break a few minutes early and 21 we'll come back -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10:30 on April 18th. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that okay 24 with Mr. George? 25 Okay. We'll adjourn now and we return on
2051 Monday, April the 18th at 10:30 a.m. Thank you very 2 much. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, excuse me, excuse 4 me. Excuse me, Mr. George. 5 Commissioner, I forgot, I wanted to remind 6 everyone about next Friday, April 15th; there's the 7 Emergency Measures Medical Procedures Educational 8 session. And this was designed to assist everybody with 9 respect to the Emergency Medical Services witnesses that 10 are coming up. 11 And it -- it's on Friday morning at -- I 12 can -- I think that everyone, all of the lawyers, it's 13 for the lawyers in Part 1 and Part 2. But, I think all 14 the lawyers in Part 1 will find it very informative and 15 helpful. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 17 they've all received an e-mail. They may not know about 18 it -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: They received an e- 20 mail this week. They were given a heads up a couple of 21 weeks ago but the agenda came out this week. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 25 (WITNESS RETIRES)
2061 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 2 adjourned until Monday, April 18th at 10:30 a.m. 3 4 --- Upon adjourning at 3:07 p.m. 5 6 7 8 Certified Correct 9 10 11 12 13 ________________________ 14 Dustin Warnock 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25