11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 6th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) (np) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 6 STANLEY FRANK KOROSEC, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 14 8 9 10 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 310 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1303 Transcript of Region 1, Kobayashi, V. 4 George, Zacher - One sided; September 5 04, 1995, 23:56 hrs, Chatham 6 Communications Centre, Logger tape 7 number 0143, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 54 8 P-1304 Transcript of Region 2, Stan Korosec, 9 John Carson, September 05, 1995, 00:35 10 hrs, Chatham Communications Centre, 11 Logger tape number 0143, Track 2, 12 Disc 2 of 20. 57 13 P-1305 Transcript of Region 3, C.P. Forest, 14 Stan Korosec, September 05, 1995, 01:00 15 hrs, Chatham Communications Centre, 16 Logger tape number 0143, Track 12, 17 Disc 12 of 20. 59 18 P-1306 Transcript of Mobile Command Unit, 19 September 05, 1995, Tape 1, Track 20 number 2, Elapsed time: 4:31:00, 21 Real Time; ?. Foreground conversation, 22 Archibald and unknown male, Background 23 conversation involves Korosec and 24 unknown male. 76 25
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1307 Transcript of Region 04, Stan Korosec, 4 Ed Robertson, September 05, 1995, 19:51 5 hrs, Mobile Command Unit: OPP Logger 6 tape number 2, Track 1, Disc 1 of 3. 116 7 P-1308 MCU recording transcript, Korosec and 8 Cousineau, September 05, 1995, 22:50 hrs. 127 9 P-1309 Transcript of Region 6, Rob Huntley, Stan 10 Korosec, September 06, 1995, 8:01 hrs, 11 Mobile Command Unit: from OPP Logger 12 tape number 3, Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 150 13 P-1310 Transcript of Region 07, Rob Shaw and Stan 14 Korosec, September 06, 1995, 08:25 hrs, 15 Mobile Command Unit, Logger tape number 3, 16 Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 156 17 P-1311 Transcript of Mobile Command Unit, 18 September 06, 1995. Tape 3, Track 1, 19 Disc 2 of 3, Elapsed time 02:23, 20 Real Time: 10:09, Conversation between 21 Lima 2 and Archibald and Command Post 22 unknown male. 165 23 24 25
101 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1312 Transcript of Mobile Command Unit, 4 September 06, 1995. Tape 3, Track 1, 5 Elapsed time: 02:13:02, Real Time: 6 09:59, Conversation involves Archibald, 7 Brian and Command Post, unknown male. 174 8 P-1313 Transcript of Region 8, Stan Korosec, 9 Lima 2, September 06, 1995, 11:09 hrs, 10 Mobile Command Unit: From OPP Logger 11 tape number 1, Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 177 12 P-1314 Transcript of Region 9, Lima 2, Stan 13 Korosec, September 06, 1995. 11:30 hrs, 14 Mobile Command Unit: from OPP Logger 15 tape number 3, Track 1, Disc 2 of 3 181 16 P-1315 Transcript of Region 13, Stan Korosec, 17 Lima 2, September 06, 1995, 16:38 hrs, 18 Mobile Command Unit: from OPP Logger 19 tape number 3, Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 187 20 P-1316 Transcript of Region 14, Stan Korosec, 21 Clark, September 06, 1995, 16:48 hrs, 22 Mobile Command Unit: from OPP Logger 23 tape number 3, Track 3, Disc 2 of 3. 193 24 25
111 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 P-1317 Transcript of September 06, 1995. 3 18:27 hrs, Track number 1827, Lima 2, 4 Check point Alpha. 210 5 P-1318 Transcript of September 06, 1995, 18:30 6 hrs, Track number 1830, Lima 2 from 7 Lima 1. 212 8 P-1319 Document Number 1001992. Transcript of 9 20:05 hrs call, Archibald, Martin, and 10 Korosec. 227 11 P-1320 Document Number 1000008. Transcript of 12 20:13 hrs call, Archibald, Skinner and 13 Korosec. 233 14 P-1321 Transcript of Region 20, Stan Korosec, 15 September 06, 1995, 20:19 hrs Chatham 16 Communications Centre, from OPP Logger tape 17 number 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 238 18 P-1322 Transcript of Region 22, Rick Zupanic, 19 Bob Cousineau, Stan Korosec, September 06, 20 1995, 20:29 hrs, Mobile Command Unit from 21 OPP Logger tape number 4, Track 3, Disc 22 2 of 3. 255 23 24 25
121 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1323 Transcript of Region 24 and 24A, Stan 4 Korosec and London Communications Centre, 5 September 06, 1995, 20:47 hrs, London 6 Communications Centre, Logger tape number 7 086, Track 6, Disc 6 of 20 and Track 2, 8 Disc 2 of 20. 264 9 P-1324 Transcript of Region 25, Stan Korosec, 10 Lima 2, Delta, September 06, 1995. 23:11 11 hrs. Chatham Communications Centre: from 12 OPP Logger tape number 0146, Track 12, 13 Disc 12 of 20. 278 14 P-1325 Transcript of Region 26, Stan Korosec, UA, 15 September 06, 1995. 23:27 hrs, Chatham 16 Communications Centre, Logger tape number 17 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 280 18 P-1326 Transcript of Region 27, Stan Korosec, 19 Comm, September 06, 1995, 23:41 hrs, 20 Chatham Communications Centre, Logger 21 tape number 0146, Track 7, Disc 7 of 20. 285 22 P-1327 Transcript of Region 32, Stan Korosec, 23 Bob Slack, September 07, 1995, 01:16 hrs, 24 Mobile Communications Centre, Logger tape 25 number 4, Track 3, Disc 2 of 3. 291
131 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1328 Transcript of Region 34, Stan Korosec 4 and London Communications Centre, 5 September 07, 1995, 02:10 hrs, Mobile 6 Command Unit, Logger tape number 4, 7 Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 294 8 P-1329 Transcript of Region 35, Stan Korosec, 9 Lyle Johnston, September 07, 1995, 5:58 10 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, from OPP Logger 11 tape number 4, Track 2, Disc 2 of 3. 300 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
141 --- Upon commencing at 9:06 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just before we begin, 11 Ms. Johnson on behalf of the First Nation and the Chiefs 12 of Ontario advised me last night that she couldn't be 13 here this morning but that Mr. Roy was going to act as 14 her agent, if necessary, and she'll be back this 15 afternoon. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 18 STANLEY FRANK KOROSEC, Resumed 19 20 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: We stopped yesterday, Mr. Korosec, at 22 the evening of September the 3rd and I would like to now 23 turn to September the 4th. And this is -- I'm going to 24 refer to Exhibit P-1302, your notebook. 25 And can you tell me in the afternoon of
151 September the 4th, what you did? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you have any independent 4 recollection of the afternoon or...? 5 A: I have -- I have some and I will have 6 to refer to my notes to help -- help refresh. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: 15:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon I was 9 on duty and had noted that all the ERT members, the eight 10 (8) plus myself were on duty at this time. We're on duty 11 at this time because we -- this way our scheduled last 12 day to -- to be in the area. 13 And after -- after today's events if -- if 14 nothing were to happen we were -- we were to go home. 15 Q: So you were scheduled to be on duty 16 from three o'clock until...? 17 A: Until some time after midnight if 18 everything was quiet and we were to pack up our things 19 and head home. 20 Q: All right. Okay. 21 A: I briefed some of the -- the members 22 on, I've noted here, on the enforcement of the HTA, 23 Highway Traffic Act, on Matheson Drive. 24 Q: And what's that refer to? 25 A: Well I -- I'm trying to recall. I
161 don't know if there was just some -- some question as to 2 what we were -- what we were doing on Matheson because 3 there was still -- there were still people in the Park 4 and -- and using that area. 5 Q: And you told us yesterday that you 6 had asked the officers after the incident on the 3rd, to 7 not be as visible I think you said on Matheson Drive or 8 words to that affect. 9 A: Yeah. Just -- we wanted to have -- 10 as much as possible avoid any confrontation or -- or any 11 escalation of any -- of the situation down there. So I'm 12 not exactly sure what the briefing was then that, you 13 know, let's just -- let's just keep an eye on it. 14 And -- and again the officers have -- have 15 discretion to use as they normally would in the normal 16 course of duties as far as Highway Traffic Act 17 enforcement. 18 Q: So then what happens? 19 A: At about 4:07, 16:07 in my notes 20 here, Constable Myers requested assistance down at the 21 beach and Matheson Drive. 22 At that time I attended down there and I 23 had a conversation with who I knew as -- as Judas George. 24 Q: And how did you know Judas George's - 25 - his proper name is Roderick George?
171 A: Yes. That's correct. 2 Q: And how did you know Roderick Judas 3 George? 4 A: I knew him through my past dealings 5 at --when I was posted at Forest Detachment for eight (8) 6 years. 7 Q: When you lived and -- when you lived 8 and worked in Forest? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: I attended down there and -- and had 12 a conversation with him. My recollection, there -- there 13 was a cruiser there and -- and another vehicle right 14 close to it. Apparently there had been some damage done 15 to the cruiser, by --by who at that point I don't know; 16 there was -- there was I believe a dent or -- in -- in 17 the door of the cruiser. 18 The two (2) vehicles were -- were very 19 close to each other and it was somewhere in that area, 20 maybe between the two (2) cruisers that I spoke with 21 Judas. And actually he -- he did most of the talking. 22 He -- he relayed to me that the Matheson Drive belonged 23 to them, not a township road and the road in the 24 Provincial Park were Federal property and that we had no 25 jurisdiction, that the Park belonged to them.
181 I explained to him that it was a township 2 road as -- as far as -- as far as I knew and it was 3 subject to Highway Traffic Act enforcement. 4 He told me that he -- he wanted a meeting 5 with my superiors and so I gave him Inspector Carson's 6 name and -- and said that we'd be willing to meet at any 7 time. He said that he would contact Charlie Bouwman who 8 was the Staff Sergeant at the time to set up a meeting. 9 He moved his car and told us to -- to 10 leave. We stayed for about fifteen (15) minutes and 11 after which time I -- I told Inspector -- I called 12 Inspector Carson to inform him of -- of what had gone on. 13 Q: And did you receive a report about -- 14 at 16:45 or approximately quarter to 5:00 from, I believe 15 it was Constable Whelan with respect to a weapon? 16 A: Yeah. Constable Whelan was there as 17 well. He was -- as I recall he was positioned -- 18 Matheson Drive, it -- because it goes down to the beach, 19 it -- it slopes down and he -- he was on the upper part 20 of that slope I believe. 21 After I finished talking with -- with 22 Judas he -- he informed me that -- there was -- there was 23 other vehicles in the area at the time, police cruisers 24 in on -- in on the Army Camp side. I recall at least one 25 (1) but at maybe two (2) other vehicles on the beach
191 there on the Army Camp side. 2 And he told me that he observed what he 3 thought to be a -- a butt of a long gun. The trunk 4 opened up and -- and one (1) of the -- an individual 5 there had reached in and he observed what he thought was 6 the butt of a -- of a long gun. 7 Q: Okay. And then before we go on I'm 8 going to show you a photograph and make sure that we're 9 talking about the same thing, an automobile -- this is 10 part of Exhibit P-135, Commissioner, which is Inquiry 11 Document 1003031. 12 And do you recognize the vehicle that's in 13 the -- in the picture? 14 A: Yeah, that's what we refered to as 15 the "finmobile" or the "batmobile". 16 Q: And it has written on the side, "OPP 17 Who?" 18 A: Yes, I see that, yes. 19 Q: And do you recognize that scene, 20 perhaps not with the car there, but the location? 21 A: That would be down at the -- at the 22 area where I believe I was having the conversation with - 23 - with Roderick. 24 Q: With Roderick George? 25 A: Yes.
201 Q: And the car's on the end of Matheson 2 Drive with the Park in the foreground and the Army Camp 3 in the background? 4 A: Correct. Correct. 5 Q: And I'm... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I believe that was photo 7 that we 10 were just looking at. I was just trying to -- so after 11 what did you do -- can you just tell us again what you 12 recall Constable Whelan saying to you, if anything? 13 A: He explained to me that while I was 14 speaking with -- with Judas or Roderick -- that -- that 15 conversation with him he was -- Roderick was very, very 16 agitated at the time. We were very close together if I 17 recall we're almost within a couple of feet of each other 18 nose to nose and he -- he was very loud and yelling at 19 me. 20 I don't know, I think maybe at one point I 21 -- I tried to calm him down and says, you know, I'm right 22 here. There's no need to yell. 23 My -- my focus was -- was -- was on him 24 and with him and trying to calm the situation. So I -- I 25 didn't observe what was going on there -- what Constable
211 Whelan saw. But what he told me was that the trunk was 2 open or someone opened the trunk and -- and reached in 3 and what he saw was what he thought was the butt of a -- 4 of a long gun. 5 Q: Okay. And what if anything, did you 6 do with that information? 7 A: I relayed that information and the 8 entire -- of what happened down there after we left, to 9 Inspector Carson. I called him on the phone. 10 Q: Okay. And what happened next that 11 you can recall or that's in your notes? 12 A: Yeah. We -- we left the area about 13 fifteen (15) minutes after -- after the end of the 14 conversation. I was informed or I saw and I -- and I 15 don't know but I was -- I was aware that the -- the gate 16 at Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road had been locked. 17 And then I noted that I also -- I called 18 Carson again to let him know that. 19 Q: And that's in your notes at -- 20 A: At 17:30. 21 Q: At 17:30. And there's a reference to 22 something after Car -- 23 "At 10:21 t call Carson, advised 24 Grand --" 25 A: "Grand Bend units and tow truck
221 cleared at 10:19." 2 I can't recall whether there was a tow 3 truck in the -- in the area. And the Grand -- in 4 relation to the Grand Bend units we may have informed 5 them that things looked like they were heating up or just 6 to make them aware of it. 7 I know I had some -- there were some ERT 8 members who were not part of this operation but they were 9 working up in Grand Bend on the Labour Day weekend. 10 Just -- just to let them be aware of what 11 was going on. 12 Q: And then you have an entry at 18:00 13 hours? 14 A: Yes. I have Gransden advises a tree 15 has been cut down across -- across Matheson near the 16 maintenance building. 17 Q: And what if anything did you do with 18 -- after you heard that information? 19 A: Well, I -- I just noted it. I -- I 20 thought to myself that things seemed to be heating up a 21 little bit. As I was leaving the Park at 18:58 hours it 22 looks like, I took note of a vehicle that entered the 23 Park. 24 I did a CPIC check, a computer check, on - 25 - on the plate. It come back registered to an Arnold
231 George of London. There was there (3) occupants in the 2 vehicle. 3 Q: And so that's around at 18:58 hours? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And then what happened? 6 A: At -- 7 Q: When you left -- when you left the 8 Park, excuse me -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- when you leave -- going to leave 11 the Park, where -- where did you go? 12 A: I don't -- I don't recall where -- I 13 -- I stayed in the area obviously but I was outside the 14 Park. Maybe I wanted to get some further information 15 from -- from Whelan and Gransden. 16 Q: And then there's an entry at 19:30? 17 A: Yes. Constable Whelan sugges -- 18 requested assistance at the -- at the east gate; that 19 would be close to where that photo was there -- 20 Q: And I'll just show you -- 21 A: -- about -- 22 Q: -- on the -- you've got a laser -- 23 this is a copy of Exhibit P-40. And it's -- you'll see 24 in the upper left-hand corner what is identified as 25 Ipperwash Provincial Park. And the -- Matheson Drive as
241 I understand it ran off East Parkway Drive -- I mean, 2 Army Camp Road east to the end of the Park and then north 3 to the beach? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And the east gate is located -- that 6 you're referring to -- would be located where on Exhibit 7 P-40? 8 A: I think it was somewhere in here. 9 Q: Near the -- just to the right of the 10 number, I think it's 590, there appears to be a road that 11 runs through the Park from east to west at that location 12 and was it at the end of the road that -- that ran east 13 to west through Park? 14 A: I -- I think so. 15 Q: Yes. Okay. So that it's the gate at 16 the 17 18 east end of the Park off Matheson Drive? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And what happened? 21 A: I attended down there and I had 22 conversation. I spoke with Bert Manning who was inside 23 the Park fence. Again I had known Bert from my previous 24 history and experience up in that area. 25 I asked him what he was -- what he was
251 doing, what he was up to. He said they were going to 2 come into the Park. They were concerned about the water 3 filtration system and wanted to check it out and he also 4 stated to me that they were going to occupy the Park. 5 Now, those may not have been his words but 6 this is my notes that I -- I took from there. 7 And I talked to him, I said, Well, you 8 know, Bert, unless you have some official document or 9 something as -- as far as I was concerned that -- and as 10 far as I'd been briefed that the Provincial Park was -- 11 was still a Provincial Park and it'd be closed at ten 12 o'clock that night and -- and after that it would be -- 13 it would be trespassing -- it would be considered 14 trespassing. 15 Q: And where did you get the time ten 16 o'clock? 17 A: I think that was in my -- my 18 briefings and our planning prior to -- to this incident. 19 Q: There's a reference in the document 20 we looked at yesterday, the September 1 minutes of the 21 meeting, the planning meeting, which appear at Tab... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: ...14. It's Exhibit P-421, I
261 believe, refer to the Park closing at six o'clock. And 2 if you -- the fourth page in at the bottom of page -- 3 Monday evening at 6:00 p.m.: 4 "All campers have to leave as the Park 5 completely closes." 6 A: I think that was... 7 Q: But in any event at this point in 8 time you thought it was -- 9 A: I -- I think the trailers and all 10 that had to be out at a certain time and then for the day 11 use it was -- it was later. 12 Q: Okay. And it was your understanding 13 it was going to close at 10:00? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 16 A: Hmm. 17 Q: Can you -- and -- and you told Mr. 18 Manning that after ten o'clock they would -- people in 19 the Park would be trespassing? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Okay. Then what happened? 22 A: He mentioned something to the effect 23 that this was -- was their land. We -- we had some more 24 discussion. Bert was very, very calm and as was I. 25 We had some discussion and we talked about
271 -- I said, Bert, look, there's -- what's the hurry in 2 doing this? You know, I said, Why don't -- why don't we 3 get together and talk about this? I said I'll get you 4 who you need to talk and negotiate this. I don't know if 5 I used the term 'negotiate' but let's just talk about 6 this and no big hurry to do this now. Why do you want to 7 do this now? Why don't we get together? I said, I'll 8 get you who you want to talk to. 9 And I was confident from -- from all our 10 briefings before, Inspector Carson, the Incident 11 Commander, wanted to ensure no confrontation and -- and 12 try and resolve this in a peaceful manner. So that's 13 what I was trying to do at this point knowing Bert and he 14 was -- he was very calm. 15 I said, Let's -- let's talk about this. 16 I'll get you who you want and -- and hopefully we can -- 17 we can resolve this situation. 18 And he agreed to this. And he -- he said 19 something to the fact that they were -- they were in no 20 hurry. At this point I was... 21 Q: And there's a reference to Tuesday at 22 10:00 a.m. -- ten o'clock? 23 A: Oh, at -- yeah, to have a meeting at 24 Tuesday at ten o'clock. 25 Q: Okay.
281 A: And at -- at this point I was pretty 2 happy. We thought that wow, maybe we can just get this 3 resolved and -- and nothing else was going to happen. We 4 can go home and that we -- we can get this settled 5 tomorrow at a higher level of course and get some 6 discussions going around this whole issue. 7 A very short time later Glenn George, who 8 I also knew from -- from past dealings, he showed up on - 9 - on Matheson Drive on -- on the other side of the fence. 10 Several other vehicles and individuals showed up too; 11 might have been two (2) other cars I -- I don't recall. 12 He gets out and immediately begins, he's 13 quite agitated, yelling and swearing at us and I have 14 note, "claiming the Park", and that might not have been 15 his words. 16 But he said they were coming to take the 17 Park and he told me to tell all the people who lived west 18 of the Park to Ravenswood that they would be taking their 19 land next. 20 Q: Yes. At the bottom there's a note: 21 "They began to..." 22 A: Yeah. 23 "They began to cut the chain that was 24 on the fence and said they were taking 25 over the Park."
291 Now, it might have been just prior to this 2 as my notes might not be quite chronological but there 3 was some brief discussion between Bert and Glenn. Bert 4 relayed to him that -- that Hey, we -- you know, we're 5 going to -- we've set up a meeting for tomorrow to talk 6 about this to which Glenn replied, No meeting. 7 So the chains were starting to get -- to 8 get cut. There were some -- one (1) individual who I 9 don't know or I don't remember had some bolt cutters of 10 some sort and started cutting the chain to the fence. 11 Bert started to walk away and he -- he 12 mentioned something of a power struggle and started to 13 walk away. 14 Q: Then what happened? 15 A: Well, prior to this I was pretty 16 happy that a meeting -- and now -- now things had changed 17 quite a bit. 18 Numerous vehicles started entering the 19 Park and scattering all about. I instructed the ERT 20 members who were there, probably over the radio, to -- to 21 start clearing out. 22 here were some -- there were still some 23 people in the park, some -- some day use people or people 24 going for a walk in the Park. So now my concern toward -- 25 turned towards them because this situation obviously has
301 gotten -- has escalated and gotten a lot more tense. 2 So my concern was to get those people out 3 of the Park so I instructed the -- the remaining ERT 4 members to get them out of the Park as quickly and safely 5 possible. 6 I have noted at 19:35 I called the Comm 7 Centre to notify Detective Constable Speck and Detective 8 Sergeant Wright to advise them an -- the occupation is 9 taking place. 10 We had some sort of and -- and I can't 11 remember -- we -- we agreed to some sort of code word or 12 phrase to -- to activate the plan in the event that the 13 occupation of the Park was taking place. I don't recall 14 what the exact phrase was but we wanted something that 15 media or scanners couldn't pick up so we wouldn't want to 16 draw any attention to the public at that point what was 17 going on. So I used the -- whatever that phrase was. 18 I noted that women and children as well as 19 approximately the twenty (20) to forty (40) Natives in 20 total were in the Park at -- at some point. 21 At 19:45, I -- I had a phone patch through 22 the radio with Inspector Carson; updated him on -- on 23 what was going on. He told me that it was possible to 24 secure the maintenance building for our use and I told 25 him at that time we were -- we were busy evacuating the
311 Park -- Park visitors. 2 Once that was done we assembled at the 3 entrance road by the -- the kiosk where people would pay 4 to come into the Park. And I noted that the -- the 5 batmobile was blocking the entrance to the Park at the 6 kiosk. 7 Q: On the Park side of the kiosk or the 8 entranceway side? 9 Was it blocking exit -- the exit from the 10 Park or the road past the kiosk into the Park? 11 A: I believe the road kind of split 12 there as you -- you come into the Park so people would 13 leave and people would come in one way, so there was -- 14 I'm not exactly sure where it was. It was somewhere in 15 that area. 16 Q: Sure. Okay. 17 A: And I have noted the remainder of the 18 Number 1 ERT was activated. And these were guys who were 19 up in Grand -- Grand Bend, Sergeant Graham, Constable 20 Zacher and Poole. And they arrived at some point. 21 Q: And do you recall asking I believe it 22 was Constable Whelan to -- and someone else's name, 23 escapes me, to go to the maintenance building? 24 A: I -- I have here the plans were made 25 for two (2) four (4) man units to -- to secure the
321 maintenance building. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I believe Inspector Carson's concern 4 there was that -- I think there was from what I recall, 5 there was a lot of gasoline and equipment stored in the 6 maintenance building and possibly be a -- a place for -- 7 for the police to be able to gather and maintain a 8 presence. 9 Q: Yes. And the maintenance building 10 was located off Matheson Drive. There's a -- on Exhibit 11 P-40, there's a road that appears -- a black line that 12 appears to run north and south inside the Provincial Park 13 just to the left as you're looking at the 'P' in 14 Provincial. 15 And do you know is -- is it was your 16 understanding the maintenance building is in the area 17 near Matheson Drive? 18 A: Yeah I think it was pretty close from 19 what I recall. This might indicate it, I don't know, but 20 it -- it wasn't -- I don't recall it being too far off of 21 Matheson Drive. 22 Q: On this road that led from Matheson 23 Drive up to -- 24 A: Yeah, correct. 25 Q: The pump house is up at the end of
331 this road here; is that not correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So then what happened? 4 A: At this point it was dark. We were 5 all assembled there. I believe Les Kobayashi from the 6 MNR was there as well. I have noted that there was 7 people all over the place. 8 It -- it was -- it was probably the most 9 difficult situation I've ever been in with the OPP. It's 10 -- even recalling it -- it's tough. 11 I was responsible at that time for all the 12 officers that were there for their safety. There was 13 women and children in the Park as well. 14 And at some point some flares get thrown 15 in our direction. These were the flares that look 16 similar to what we've used to do -- or used to use in 17 traffic control at highway accidents scenes or 18 roadblocks. 19 They were -- they were the white 20 phosphorous type. You strike them and they burn. Any of 21 these embers that -- that will burn on you will burn you. 22 At least a couple of them were -- were thrown in our 23 direction while we were gathered there by the kiosk. 24 So this gave me great concern. 25 Q: And how many do you recall -- how
341 many officers were by the kiosk at this point in time? 2 A: Well there was the eight (8) of us, 3 or the nine (9) of us counting me, and I've noted that 4 the three (3) other arrived so there was twelve (12). 5 Les Kobayashi was there. I don't know if Don Matheson 6 was there or not, I'm not sure. 7 Q: Don Matheson was the Assistant 8 Superintendent? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Les Kobayashi, we've heard he was 11 the Superintendent? 12 A: Correct. I don't know if George 13 Speck was there at that time, he may have been. 14 Q: And the officers who were at the -- 15 in the area of the kiosk or the gatehouse had their 16 cruisers with them? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And so the cruisers were parked and 19 the officers -- where were the officers in relation to 20 the cruisers? 21 A: We were pretty well standing by our 22 cruisers. I mean, we had to -- kind of gathered there, 23 so at least I knew where everybody was and we could keep 24 an eye on each other and keep an eye on the cruisers. I 25 mean, there's all kinds of equipment in there and there
351 might have been long guns in the trunks of the cruisers. 2 I remember one point that one officer was 3 getting something out of his cruiser, it would be a 4 flashlight or something, and one of the occupiers was 5 right there. I mean, there's bushes around, there's 6 trees, it's dark. There were people wandering all over 7 the place. It was not a good spot. 8 Q: So then what happened? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Well, at 21:20, I have noted that 13 Judas George appeared, appeared out of nowhere to me, 14 anyway. I mean, he immediately started yelling something 15 like, I thought I told you fuckers to get off our land. 16 Now, get off. 17 And about this time, he was carrying some 18 sort of large stick, I couldn't tell exactly what it was 19 but it was a large stick. And he struck the back 20 windshield of one of the cruisers that was parked there, 21 smashing it. 22 Now I'm really concerned. We have flares 23 being thrown at us, we got the windshield, we got women 24 and children in the Park, our officers in the Park; it 25 was not a good spot to be and I'm the one in charge.
361 So I had some real concerns. If we're 2 going to take any action, and I knew I had the ERT 3 members that I had there were -- they weren't going to do 4 anything on their own, they were good officers. 5 A lot of things were running through my 6 mind at the time. I didn't want to escalate things any 7 more or get anyone hurt on either side. 8 If we were to take some action against 9 Judas, there probably would have been a fight. To effect 10 a proper arrest would require several officers and I'm 11 thinking, well, what if some of the women and children 12 get involved in this, too or innocent bystanders, and 13 whatever would have occurred. 14 I spoke with Inspector Carson on the phone 15 and suggested, basically get -- painted the picture as 16 best I could as to what was going on, given what was 17 going on at the time. 18 I said, for safety concerns that we're 19 outnumbered, didn't know all the locations of where 20 everybody was, the women and children, flares, the 21 windshield being smashed, I suggested to him that we 22 withdraw and regroup as -- as planned at Forest 23 Detachment. 24 Now, that as planned part might have been 25 from, I think I'd made a couple of phone calls to him
371 immediately when this was going on and later on as -- as 2 things seemed to escalate. 3 At that point he told me to withdraw from 4 the Park and regroup at Forest Detachment. I was very 5 happy to do so. 6 So at about 21:38, left the Park and I 7 attended at the Forest Detachment to brief Inspector 8 Carson. At that time, a plan was formulated to have P/C 9 Vince George and Les Kobayashi from the MNR attempt to 10 serve a written notice to a spokesperson there at the -- 11 at the Provincial Park re. the Trespass to Property Act, 12 that's the TTPA. 13 And because of the concerns of what we'd 14 just gone through, and having the MNR and an officer 15 attend to serve these papers, Inspector Carson thought it 16 was best to have some -- some of the ERT officers there 17 to accompany them but out of sight, just for their own 18 protection. 19 Q: And that's what your note says: 20 "And ERT stood by and in [something] 21 area." 22 A: Hmm hmm. In the -- in the bush area. 23 I think they -- they used the main entrance road into the 24 Provincial Park. 25 Q: To the kiosk area?
381 A: To the kiosk area and the ERT teams 2 were split -- the ERT team was split four (4) and four 3 (4) on -- kind of in the bushes on the side so again if 4 you -- if they were going to go up the road with them 5 that it might escalate the situation even more so it was 6 thought just best to just have two (2) go up there and 7 attempt to serve some sort -- some sort of notice. 8 Q: Okay. And we'll come back to that in 9 a moment but if I -- I would ask you to please turn to 10 Tab 17 in your book? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, the scribe notes are -- have 15 been marked, Mr. Korosec, as Exhibit 426. 16 And the -- there's an entry starting at -- 17 the first entry is at 20:18 hundred hours and there's an 18 entry 20:56 hours: 19 "Stan Korosec called back to Mark 20 Wright briefing and spoke to John 21 Carson. Advised Stan Korosec to 22 control bridge. Keep control of 23 maintenance shack. Advised we have 24 nine (9) cruisers in Park. Advise them 25 personally to gain their position.
391 Safety issue for ERT is number 1. If 2 safety threatened use cruiser to go 3 through a fence. Sergeant Korosec to 4 re-advise of course of conversation." 5 And does that help us -- does that help 6 you --assist you with recalling a conversation with 7 Inspector Carson? 8 Do you recall being asked to control the 9 bridge? 10 A: I -- I don't recall that. I -- no 11 reason to doubt that that -- that was asked of me, but at 12 this time lots was going through my mind and 13 Q: And -- 14 A: -- I don't recall. 15 Q: -- then after you -- there's a note 16 in the scribe notes at page 2, 21:26: 17 "Sergeant Korosec called 10-78." 18 And that's a code for need assistance I 19 believe, 10-78? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And at 21:28 hours Inspector Carson 22 speak to Sergeant Korosec: 23 "Don't get anyone hurt, just back off. 24 Do what is safe. Everyone report to 25 Forest."
401 And that's as you've told us what you did? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And then you returned to Forest and 4 at this point the Mobile Command Unit was not at Forest? 5 You can take that from -- if you don't 6 recall. 7 A: Right. I -- I have -- 8 Q: And -- 9 A: -- no reason to doubt you. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: I have no reason to doubt you; I 12 don't recall. 13 Q: You don't recall. And so the 14 discussion about the plan that you've got in your notes 15 took place between you and who else? 16 A: The plan to regroup at Forest? 17 Q: No, the plan to -- a plan was 18 formulated to have P/C Vince George and Les Kobayashi 19 attend. Who...? 20 A: Oh, that would have been Inspector 21 Carson. 22 Q: Okay. And -- 23 A: He was the Incident Commander, so. 24 Q: And when you get back do you report 25 to Inspector Carson; there's a note at page 5 of Exhibit
411 P-426 Inquiry Document 1002419 at 22:34 hours? 2 A: At 22 -- pardon me? 3 Q: 22:34 hours. It's page 5, sir. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And in the second sentence of that 6 entry: 7 "Stan Korosec arrived again briefing 8 John Carson as Natives were throwing 9 flares at us. The maintenance building 10 had been -- had been broken into. Stan 11 Korosec indicated it wasn't safe as 12 people were coming from everywhere." 13 John Carson to Stan Korosec: 14 "We will patrol the area for the night 15 continuing just a perimeter patrol. 16 Stan Korosec advised that the Natives 17 told P/C Specks and P/C Parks that they 18 would be arrested if anyone stepped on 19 the Park and they will be confronted." 20 John Carson to Stan Korosec: 21 "Select who you believe is best to 22 serve papers and we will have a cruiser 23 standing by." 24 Does that assist you to -- in recalling 25 that -- do you have any other recollection of this
421 conversation with John Carson? 2 A: No, I don't, but basically that 3 appears to be what -- what occurred. 4 Q: And then at 22:38, there's an entry: 5 "John Carson asked who the spokesperson 6 is, and that we will serve them. This 7 has to be done so that the injunction 8 [it should be injunction] can be made. 9 Stan Korosec replied, maybe we can 10 serve Bert as he seems receptive. One 11 of the other guys, Judas or someone 12 else, will grab one of [else] will grab 13 one of our guys, arrest them as they 14 said they would. 15 JOHN CARSON: We have to get the 16 papers served, so by daylight we are 17 operational. Stan Korosec advises 18 David George some women and kids are 19 present. 20 Advised they will just be hanging 21 around for the night, and then Mark 22 Wright talks about guarding the scene. 23 [Then] Stan Korosec advises they want a 24 meeting set for 10:00 a.m. tomorrow 25 after other Natives have arrived.
431 Confirmed a gun was observed in one 2 their vehicles earlier." 3 And that's a reference to the... 4 A: Incident on the beach with the -- 5 with Judas. 6 Q: And where --- Whelan, Constable 7 Whelan reported to you what he had seen? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Then what the -- at -- up at the top 10 of page 6 at 22:45: 11 "JOHN CARSON: Any discussion, i.e. 12 trespassing when first entered. 13 STAN KOROSEC: When they first 14 arrived, the Park wasn't closed. Glenn 15 showed up, threatening that they were 16 going to take Ravenswood next." 17 John Carson asks Stan Korosec: 18 "Do you feel okay with this regarding 19 serving papers -- the papers? 20 Stan Korosec replied: 21 "Yeah, that's fine. We should be okay, 22 John. 23 Carson indicated that safety is number 24 1. If need be , if problems are 25 encountered, get out."
441 And then 22:46: 2 "John Carson indicated, Let's get 3 Vinnie to meet with them and Stan 4 Korosec advised to brief him. 5 John Carson indicated, I want two (2) 6 two (2) man vehicles on either side of 7 entrance to help if needed. Then asked 8 Stan, okay, and Stan agreed. 9 Mark Wright advised that ERT -- the ERT 10 guys are available to do this. 11 And Stan Korosec indicated that if we 12 deal with Judas there will be problems. 13 Mark Wright indicated if this doesn't 14 work, we can use the press release 15 indicating that they have been served 16 verbally. 17 JOHN CARSON: I want us to do what we 18 can then do a press release. Let 19 everybody know we're doing the best we 20 can and we're being gentlemen about 21 this. 22 Then asked Stan Korosec, are you okay 23 with that? And he acknowledged. 24 Mark Wright is to brief the ERT with 25 Stan Korosec. Stan Korosec indicated
451 yeah, that's good." 2 Now, does that assist you in recalling -- 3 do you agree with this, does it assist you in 4 remembering -- 5 A: Yeah, I -- and I noted earlier, they 6 formulated a plan to -- to serve the papers at John 7 Carson's instructions that he wanted to get this done 8 and, you know, be gentlemen about this and to take the 9 first -- well, I guess the next, legal step is to serve 10 written notice of trespassing on the occupiers. 11 Q: And then at the top of page 7, 12 there's a note 22:58: 13 "Stan Korosec advised Mark Wright and 14 John Carson that he was leaving to meet 15 with Vince George regarding briefing." 16 And do you recall meeting with Vince 17 George that evening? 18 A: No, I don't and I don't know where. 19 Q: And there was no note in your book 20 about meeting Vince George? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And the -- then at some point Vince 23 George arrived at the Command Post or did he arrive? Did 24 he come to the Forest Detachment, Vince George, do you 25 recall?
461 A: I'm assuming he did, but I -- 2 Q: You don't recall? 3 A: -- we'd drive down together, but I 4 don't know for sure. 5 Q: And do you recall who -- there was 6 Vince George and Les Kobayashi -- 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Did they drive with you or did they 9 drive in a separate vehicle or do you recall? 10 A: I don't -- no, they didn't come with 11 me, because when we went down to serve the papers, I 12 positioned my cruiser at the -- at the MNR parking lot 13 there on East Parkway Drive just -- just to monitor what 14 was going on and so I wasn't part of that physically 15 serving of the papers. So they -- I'm assuming they went 16 in -- in another vehicle. 17 Q: So that the -- the scribe notes 18 indicate that -- on page 7 at 23:02, that the -- the 19 reference: 20 "Les Kobayashi and Vinnie going to 21 serve papers down at the maintenance 22 building." 23 Do you recall when you went down to -- 24 approximately when you went down to the area and you went 25 to the MNR parking lot?
471 A: I don't -- I don't have it noted but 2 I know that we went down there and it was unsuccessful. 3 I didn't note the time that this occurred. 4 Q: Okay. And if you could turn to Tab 5 15 of your book, this is a radio communication and we 6 believe it's you and Vince George at 23:56 hours on 7 September the 4th. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Here, we'll start again. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Unfortunately there's a lot of space 16 in this and it's hard to find. 17 Commissioner, I'm going to fast forward it 18 but I may have to backup and -- because it's a thirteen 19 (13) minute clip and this is all that's captured on it. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: So at this point you're in -- you 24 think you're at the MNR parking lot on East Parkway? 25 A: I believe so, yes.
481 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: The problem is, Commissioner, if I 4 fast forward it -- it too much -- I actually am fast 5 forwarding it but if it's too much you -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go right 7 past it. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- you can go right 9 past it and I didn't appreciate that this was such a long 10 transmission. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We 12 understand there's lots of times on the tape where 13 there's blank air space. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There is that. 15 THE WITNESS: Maybe to explain that I 16 mean -- 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes? 18 THE WITNESS: -- you -- you don't want to 19 be doing too much chatting on the radio, especially in a 20 situation where you want to be, you know, where you don't 21 want to give yourself away or -- or -- because the -- the 22 guys at that time just had the -- the portable radio and 23 that, it's very quiet out there, so you want to maintain 24 communication to a -- to a bare minimum. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The bare minimum, I
491 appreciate that. 2 THE WITNESS: So that's going to happen. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 7 [VG = Vince George] 8 9 SK: Zacher from Korosec ... inaudible ... come 10 in. 11 ??: Yes ... Entrance to the park? 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: That was very quick but did you 17 recognize that voice? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: "Entrance to the Park?" 20 A: I -- I don't know, it was pretty 21 quick. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 24 25 ??: Yes ... Entrance to the park?
501 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 2 3 THE WITNESS: Sounds like it could have 4 been me. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Do you have -- do you think it might 8 have been you? 9 A: Yeah. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 12 13 ??: Just go right up. Cars are blocking 14 entrance to the park 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 20 "Just go right up, cars are blocking 21 entrance to the Park? 22 A: I -- I don't know for sure. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 25
511 ??: inaudible . . . just go right up there. 2 ??: Okay, Vinny. Mark, they're en route - 3 Vince is en route now. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And that voice? 9 A: Might have been mine. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 12 13 ??: Why don't you talk directly to Vince ... 14 inaudible ... directly to Vince George. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Is that you? 20 A: It might be. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 23 24 VG: I'm at the main gate now. I'm pulling in 25 with a cruiser.
521 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: That was Vince George? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Getting near the end, Commissioner. 10 We're just about there. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 13 14 ??: inaudible ... ahead Mark. 15 ??: Go ahead, Vince. 16 ??: Yeah. Come out to the main gate there. 17 Send a spokesman out. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 23 A: It might have been mine. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED)
531 2 ??: Inaudible . . . Okay. 10-4. And they 3 were going to send somebody out? Okay. 4 Mark, you guys are withdrawing back, are 5 you? Inaudible . . . your portable's 6 going. Get someone else to do the 7 talking. 8 9 End of conversation 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And do you recognize the last voice 15 in the last -- 16 A: That might have been mine. 17 Q: It might have been you? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And the reference to Mark appears to 20 be one of the officers who is there at -- at the Park? 21 A: It might have been because in -- in 22 the first reference I got Zacher and there was a Mark 23 Zacher on our team so that might have been him. 24 And portables going -- probably what -- we 25 didn't hear much of his conversation, the battery was
541 probably going low on his portable radio. So I'm telling 2 him to get someone else, to use their portable to 3 communicate. 4 Q: Use their portable. And so the Mark 5 was probably Mark Zacher. It clearly would not be Mark 6 Wright? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And I would ask that -- that -- the 9 transcript be marked the next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1303, Your Honour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1303: Transcript of Region 1, 14 Kobayashi, V. George, Zacher 15 - One sided; September 04, 16 1995, 23:56 hrs, Chatham 17 Communications Centre, Logger 18 tape number 0143, Track 12, 19 Disc 12 of 20. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And then if you please turn to Tab 19 23 and this is a communication at thirty-five (35) minutes 24 after midnight on the morning of September the 5th, and 25 it's with you and John Carson.
551 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 4 [JC = Inspector John Carson] 5 6 SK: John, you reading? 7 JC: Yeah. Go ahead, Stan. I got you. 8 SK: They've attempted service and were told 9 that there not - it's too late tonight to 10 do any dealings. Ah come back at noon 11 tomorrow. What are your wishes? 12 JC: Come on back to the detachment. We'll go 13 into Plan B. If they won't accept it, 14 we'll just consider it - service as being 15 completed anyway, verbally. 16 SK: Okay. Stand by a second. [Talking to 17 someone else: "They won't accept service, 18 but come back tomorrow at noon."] 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And do you recognize that voice. 24 A: No. 25
561 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 2 3 SK: You still there? 4 JC: Yeah. Go ahead, Stan. 5 SK: Yeah. Vinny's talking to somebody else 6 there right now. We might be able to get 7 it done now. But if not, we'll 10-19. 8 JC: Yeah. Okay. That's good, Stan. We'll 9 see you when you get back here then. 10 SK: 10-4. 11 JC: Is everything okay? Is everything okay 12 other than that? 13 SK: Yeah. 10-4. They blocked the front 14 entrance with a car. We had to walk in 15 and make some other arrangements. 16 JC: Okay. We'll see you back here. 17 SK: Yeah. Clear Chatham. 18 19 End of conversation 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 25 the next exhibit.
571 THE REGISTRAR: P-1304, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1304: Transcript of Region 2, Stan 4 Korosec, John Carson, 5 September 05, 1995, 00:35 6 hrs, Chatham Communications 7 Centre, Logger tape number 8 0143, Track 2, Disc 2 of 20. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And when the reference to "We had to 12 walk in and make some other arrangements" is that 13 referring -- is that referring to you or it's not 14 referring to you? 15 A: No. I -- I'm -- 16 Q: Referring to the officers? 17 A: Yeah. I -- I'm getting information 18 from -- from them, either in person and probably in 19 person there or maybe over the radio. I don't know, But 20 they're telling me what happened, they had to walk in, 21 make some other arrangements. 22 Q: And then at one o'clock and so did -- 23 do you recall what happened, this is at -- it's thirty- 24 five (35) minutes after midnight, at twenty-five (25) to 25 1:00 and then the next communication is at one o'clock,
581 it's at Tab 20. 2 And... 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 [CP = Forest] 7 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 8 9 CP: 24-06 from 24-01. 10 CP: Sergeant Korosec from Forest Command Post. 11 12 SK: 24-01, 24-80 13 CP: Go ahead, 24-80. 14 UNM: 24-06 radio's not working very well. 15 We're right behind him. Is there a 16 message for him or others? We're all 10- 17 19 to Forest. 18 CP: 10-4 this from OIC. He's looking for an 19 ETA back. 20 21 Static / inaudible 22 23 SK: Okay. I'm reading you now. 10 minutes. 24 ??: 20 - 25
591 End of conversation 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 6 that be the next exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1305. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't think that -- I'm 9 sorry. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1305, Your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1305? 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1305: Transcript of Region 3, C.P. 16 Forest, Stan Korosec, 17 September 05, 1995, 01:00 18 hrs, Chatham Communications 19 Centre, Logger tape number 20 0143, Track 12, Disc 12 of 21 20. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Excuse me. Mr. Korosec...? 25 A: Yeah. I don't think that was me that
601 were -- not that it matters, but the "2406 radio is not 2 working well" it didn't sound like me, but... 3 Q: So you don't think that's you? 4 A: No, I think somebody else is saying 5 that 6 my radio's not working very well and then later on they 7 say: 8 "Okay, I'm reading you now, ten (10) 9 minutes." 10 Q: So the second entry is -- 11 A: "SK", I don't believe it was me. 12 Q: So we'll change that to UNM, unknown 13 male. But you're just simply reporting -- you're 14 reporting that you'll be back in ten (10) minutes? 15 A: Yes. It looks like Inspector Carson 16 wanted to know when we're -- when we're going to be back. 17 Q: Okay. Then you go back to the 18 Command Post and there's a reference to the first call we 19 listened to, that thirty-five (35) -- at 00:35 at page 11 20 of Exhibit 426 at 00:37 hours. 21 And do you see that at the bottom of page 22 11 of a -- if you go to Tab, excuse me, the -- it's in 23 your book at Tab 17. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
611 2 A: Excuse me, what page? 3 Q: Page 11. 4 A: And at what time? 5 Q: At 00:37. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yeah -- 10 Q: And that's it. But if I could take 11 you back to the page before, page 10, 00:20, John Carson 12 to Sergeant Cousineau: 13 "Check with Korosec. Cousineau called 14 Sergeant Korosec, advised 10-3 -- 10-3 15 has stopped transmitting." 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And: 18 "JOHN CARSON: Okay, as long as they're 19 okay." 20 And do you recall a conversation with 21 Sergeant Cousineau? 22 A: I don't recall it, no. 23 Q: And the: 24 "Sergeant Korosec advised 10-3 stopped 25 transmitting."
621 Is that because of your concerns? 2 A: Yes, we would have keep -- now was 3 not the time to talk. They were in the middle of 4 attempting service so we wanted to be quiet on the radio. 5 Q: And then the -- at page 13, there's a 6 reference at one o'clock, Bob Cousineau to John Carson: 7 "Stan Korosec's ETA is ten (10) 8 minutes." 9 And then the -- there's a reference at 10 1:10 hours: 11 "Vince George arrived. 12 JOHN CARSON: Bert Manning, intoxicated 13 with other male, attended. Wouldn't 14 speak under flashlight. Will meet 15 tomorrow around noon. 16 VINCE GEORGE: There appears to be no 17 one in the Park. 18 Vince George said Dave George was going 19 to serve. They backed up, refused to 20 be served. 21 MIKE WRIGHT: Access points are open, 22 do we go in?" 23 And were you back in the -- in -- at the - 24 - the -- at Forest at this point? Do you recall this 25 conversation?
631 A: No, I got -- I have in my notes I'm - 2 - I'm back at Forest at 02:00. 3 Q: If the -- 4 A: I -- I don't recall -- 5 Q: This conversation? 6 A: -- that conversation at all, no. 7 Q: If the one o'clock transmission is 8 right, that you were going to be back there in ten (10) 9 minutes, and the note at the bottom -- top of page 13 10 you're going to be back in ten (10) minutes; is it fair 11 to say that your note's probably wrong? 12 A: It could have been, or something -- 13 we ended up doing something else. I -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I'm, you know, non-operational but... 16 Q: The -- there's a reference to you in 17 the entry starting at 1:13. There's a -- John Carson 18 says: 19 "Established checkpoints. Will hold 20 tight tonight, then look at tomorrow." 21 And then at the bottom of the page, page 22 13, Exhibit 426: 23 "JOHN CARSON: Trailer should be here 24 shortly. 25 STAN KOROSEC: I'll use some 2
641 District. 2 JOHN CARSON: Let some guys rest if 3 quiet. If problems I want guys there, 4 let them rest nearby. 5 JOHN CARSON: Don't be right in front 6 of Park. 7 STAN KOROSEC: Park at Sunnyside 8 Trailer Park. 9 JOHN CARSON: Okay. 10 JOHN CARSON: Les Kobayashi will hang 11 onto service if we get a chance and -- 12 officially and sit down with them and 13 give it to them, but they know." 14 And then there's an entry at 1:25: 15 "John Carson -- [excuse me] Sergeant 16 Korosec showed map to John Carson. 17 Advised there are two (2) by two (2) 18 officer units -- will be -- where two 19 (2) by two (2) officer units will be." 20 And do you recall that discussion setting 21 up the checkpoints that evening? 22 A: I don't recall the discussion. 23 Q: And did you arrange for checkpoints 24 to be set up on the evening of -- the morning of 25 September the 5th?
651 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And can you recall today where they 3 were? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And Sunnyside Trailer Park's on Army 6 Camp Road? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: And it's north of, I think it's 9 Gratton Drive? It runs north from -- Gratton Drive runs 10 east off Army Camp Road and Sunnyside Trailer Park is the 11 trailer park to the north of -- 12 A: Yes, somewhere in that vicinity 13 there, yes. 14 Q: And the -- there's an entry at the 15 top of page 15 at 1:40 hours -- :48 hours: 16 "Returned to briefing by Stan Korosec. 17 JOHN CARSON: We stopped everyone to 18 ID. We can't stop press." 19 And do you remember briefing the ERT 20 officers the morning of -- early in the morning of 21 September the 5th? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And there's actually a note in your 24 notes on that? 25 A: That's correct.
661 Q: And could you just tell us what your 2 note says again? 3 A: For the 5th of September? 4 "Six o'clock I was on duty at the 5 Command Post." 6 Q: Now this is a briefing actually at -- 7 it appears to be at 1:48 hours in the morning of 8 September 5th? It's page 15. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: "Return to briefing by Stan Korosec." 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: My Friend points out at the bottom of 15 that page: 16 "02:09 hours, uniformed members called 17 back for debriefing. Night shift and 18 Administrative Supervisor Steve Reid 19 (phonetic). Communication Unit Bob 20 Cousineau, ERT Command, George Van 21 Damme." 22 Do you recall anything with respect to 23 that? 24 A: George Van Damme was the Number 2 25 District ERT leader.
671 Q: When you were there -- when John 2 Carson gave the -- the instruction that he wanted to 3 establish checkpoints early in the morning of September 4 the 5th, that instruction appeared to have been given to 5 you because there's a note that you showed him where the 6 checkpoints were going to be. 7 A: Yeah. And -- and -- I mean these are 8 -- these are scribe notes so I -- I don't know if -- if 9 George Van Damme was present at that, or not. 10 Q: I'm actually just using -- trying to 11 use the scribe notes to help refresh your memory because 12 I -- 13 A: I know. 14 Q: -- know it's a long time ago. 15 A: It is a long time ago and -- I mean 16 it's in there, he told me to stop to ID. And I -- and I 17 know that's the instructions that were -- were given to 18 the checkpoints. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: At 1:27 on page 14 there's a 23 reference to a briefing by -- of Number One and Two ERT 24 by Mark Wright and with John Carson. And -- but at any 25 rate, do you recall being at that briefing? Or you may
681 not have been at the briefing, actually, if I read the 2 scribe notes now. 3 A: No. Now looking at this, there was - 4 - at some point I was staying at the Pinery -- at the 5 bunkhouse and now that the occupation occurred we're into 6 Project -- into Maple, into the plan. 7 And that required me now to -- I was no 8 longer to be staying at the bunkhouse. Anyone working 9 out of the Command Post was suppose to stay at the Forest 10 motel here. 11 And I don't know if it was at that time 12 that I -- I grabbed all my gear that I had at Pinery and 13 took that opportunity to whisk it down to Forest, so -- 14 because that's -- that's where my accommodations would be 15 for -- for the duration of this. So -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- it may have been at that time. 18 Q: It may have been. Okay, fair enough. 19 And I understand from your notes in your notebook that 20 you went off duty at three o'clock? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And then you stayed as part of the -- 23 the command team stayed at Forest? 24 A: That's where I -- I was assigned to 25 stay anyway.
691 Q: And so you stayed at the Forest Golf 2 and Country Club hotel in Forest here? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Now there's a transcript in front of 5 you, and there's one in front of you, Commissioner, as 6 well, that has the time September the 5th, 1995. 7 We believe this may be at approximately 8 2:45 in the morning, but the -- I'm going to play this. 9 Ms. Tuck-Jackson has -- is attempting to ascertain the 10 time. One of My Friends had pointed this conversation 11 out to me this morning. So when we get the time we'll 12 advise. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And I'm advised that -- that this is 17 a very faint call. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And what we're listening to is the 22 background conversation. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
701 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: What's happening there is they're 3 talking about putting someone -- Mark Wright on -- 4 talking about people on the tactical -- the 5 communications network? 6 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 9 10 Mobile Command Unit 11 September 5, 1995 12 Tape 1, Track #2 13 Elapsed Time: 04:31:00, Real Time: ? 14 Foreground conversation involves Archibald and unknown 15 male. 16 Background conversation involves two unknown males. 17 (Foreground conversation already in progress) 18 Background conversation: 19 20 SK: Well, they threw it at Parks and we know 21 who did it. We got the eyeball on 'em 22 and uh, he's gonna get charged. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 25
711 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 3 A: I think that's mine. 4 Q: Okay. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 7 8 SK: So, um, now I got the 12 ERT there and I 9 can't be, you know, it's dark, they're all 10 in the bushes, I can't... ones I could I 11 see, 12 of them - yeah, I mean you want 12 two to one. So, uh, then all of a sudden 13 Judas shows up. He's about six four, 14 gotta be close to 300 lbs and he's the one 15 that was nose to nose with on the beach... 16 in that little operation there. He 17 just... He came outta' fuckin' nowhere. 18 "What the fuck is going on here?" Ker-rash 19 with his walking stick smashed the back 20 window of the cruiser. Don't cha' think 21 we all wanted to jump him, but... Boy, it 22 woulda' been, the fight woulda', woulda' 23 been on and I don't know if we woulda' 24 come out on top. I didn't want to take 25 that chance...
721 (foreground conversation) 2 3 Background conversation continued: 4 5 SK: he smashes the window... suggest we will 6 pull out and go with the original plan and 7 (indecipherable) Forest. 8 9 (foreground conversation at the same time) 10 11 RH: I think you coulda' expedited the plan 12 because you told them you'd leave your 13 (indecipherable) 14 15 (foreground conversation at the same time) 16 17 SK: No we're not. 18 RH: So that's what they did, eh? And that was 19 (indecipherable) 20 21 (Foreground conversation continues) 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
731 Q: The -- it's very brief and faint at 2 the back, but the main part of the conversation 3 describing what happened at the kiosk or gatehouse in the 4 Park, was you? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: And does that assist -- did you -- do 7 you have any recollection of this discussion? I believe 8 it was approximately 2:45 in the morning of -- of -- 9 A: No, I don't. 10 Q: Oh, it's not correct. Somebody... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: We'll have to get the time because 15 this -- Mr. Archibald wasn't on duty until the morning of 16 the 5th. So it must have been on -- some time on the 5th 17 at eight o'clock, but we're still trying to track down 18 the time. 19 Do you remember having this conversation-- 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: And there's a reference: 22 "He smashes the window, suggest we pull 23 out and go with the original plan and 24 [something] Forest." 25 It was very difficult to hear, but did --
741 did you hear that part? 2 A: The -- that main paragraph there -- 3 Q: You heard the main paragraph and not 4 the rest? 5 A: Yes, I heard that, yes. Yes. 6 Q: But not the -- it goes down, 7 background conversation continued, unknown -- 8 A: Yes, I heard that as well, yeah. 9 Q: Yeah. And that's you? 10 A: Yeah. I don't know who the unknown 11 two (2) was. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Whoever I was talking to there. 14 Q: And you're simply -- it would appear 15 you're telling somebody what happened at the gate? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And it talks about wanting to jump 18 in, and I take it that's -- 19 A: Well -- 20 Q: -- Roderick Judas George? 21 A: Yes, to arrest him for -- for that. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: But then I -- I go on to say that it 24 wouldn't have been a good idea, I didn't want to take any 25 chances.
751 Q: And you went off duty, I believe, at 2 three o'clock? 3 A: About then, yes. 4 Q: That's what Exhibit -- your notes at 5 Tab 13 say, and that's Exhibit 1302. And then you come 6 back on duty the next morning at, as I see it, at -- 7 A: Six o'clock. 8 Q: -- six o'clock and that's page 21 of 9 Exhibit -- the 1302 at Tab 13, Commissioner. And so you 10 had about three (3) hours sleep only? 11 A: Well, less -- 12 Q: Probably less than that? 13 A: -- less than that. Probably about 14 two (2). 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we take 16 a morning break now? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:33 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:49 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
761 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Thank you, Commissioner. Now, I -- I 4 forgot to mark the transcript that we just played. The 5 one with Mr. Korosec, identified himself in the 6 background. It's identified as Take 1, Track 2, a lapsed 7 time 04:31:00, and the real time we're still working on. 8 But I would ask that that be the next 9 exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1306, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1306: Transcript of Mobile Command 13 Unit, September 05, 1995, 14 Tape 1, Track number 2, 15 Elapsed time: 4:31:00, Real 16 Time; ?. Foreground 17 conversation, Archibald and 18 unknown male, Background 19 conversation involves 20 Korosec and unknown male. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then you came back on duty -- you 24 were on duty, according to your notebook, page 21 of 25 Exhibit 13 -- P-1302 at six o'clock in the morning.
771 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And then you worked until -- it 3 appears to be ten o'clock on the -- the 5th? 4 A: 20:00 it would be. 5 Q: I mean eight o'clock? 6 A: Eight o'clock, yes. 7 Q: Eight o'clock. And the -- your notes 8 indicate: 9 "Brief 3 and 6 ERT, duties at Command 10 Post." 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And those are the notes you kept for 13 the day? 14 A: Correct -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- that was -- I was now into -- I 17 was no longer an ERT team leader because we -- we go into 18 our Project Maple plan that we had talked about earlier, 19 where my duties now consisted of those roles and 20 responsibilities as a co-ordinator for the ERT teams. 21 Q: And so at this point in the morning, 22 the mobile command unit's in Forest? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And can you just -- do you recall the 25 set up of the Mobile Command Unit, that particular one?
781 A: I believe it was a big trailer and 2 when you -- when you walked into it, you turned right, 3 that's where the communications set up was, the radios. 4 In the centre might have been a little bit 5 of a kitchen or some sort of storage area. And then if 6 you walked to the left there was a meeting room type room 7 there. 8 Q: Yes. And could you just repeat that 9 again for me. I'm sorry, I just missed that. If you 10 turn left you -- there is a large room? 11 A: Yes. There is a larger room there 12 and it was -- looked like there was -- I recall a table 13 set up there, or something to have -- that you could have 14 meetings or whatnot in there. 15 Q: And at the -- do you recall if at -- 16 Inspector Carson said that at the back of the trailer 17 there was a small office? 18 A: That -- that might have been what 19 I'm referring to. I can't remember. 20 Q: At the -- at the -- 21 A: At the back -- 22 Q: He says that when you -- 23 A: -- I guess it would be on the left. 24 Q: He said when you walked in, you turn 25 -- you turned to the right, it was the communications
791 room. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: On the left there was a large room 4 and then behind the larger room was a smaller room that 5 he could use as an office if he wanted to. 6 A: I have no reason to doubt that. 7 Q: But you don't recall? 8 A: I don't recall that, no. 9 Q: And where did you spend the bulk of 10 your time? 11 A: Most of my time was on the right 12 there, in the communications area, as one of my duties 13 was to report back to the Inspector anything that was 14 going on, that I overheard on the radio. 15 Q: So that -- and in the -- as I 16 understand it, in the command post, the Inspector Carson 17 had indicated that there should be you, the CRO, which is 18 the civilian radio operator? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And the ERT leader? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And then John Carson, Mark Wright and 23 the scribe in the rear? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: Is that your understanding?
801 A: That's right. 2 Q: And so that on the -- the day shift - 3 - you were basically on the day shift, in theory anyway, 4 at this point on September 5th? 5 A: Yeah. I'm basically in that radio 6 room, I might be communicating with the -- I mean, we 7 have now -- we have ERT teams -- 3 and 6 ERT team that 8 have come in now, so I may have been communicating with 9 the -- the other logistics, whoever's in charge of 10 logistics and accommodations and whatnot. 11 So I might be meeting with them over in 12 the Detachment side of things, to make sure that these -- 13 the teams are -- are looked after, as far as 14 accommodations, if there's any equipment requirements, 15 when they're going to get fed, how they're going to get 16 fed, and those types of things. 17 Q: So that as a -- under Project Maple, 18 Exhibit P-424, your role was -- was one of a -- as noted, 19 administrative, and to provide the administration -- 20 administrative and operational requirements of the ERT 21 teams present. 22 That was one of your roles? 23 A: Correct, that was -- that was one of 24 them. 25 Q: And then get the required equipment
811 and -- and personnel? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then act as a conduit of 4 information to John Carson, the incident commander? 5 A: Correct. That -- I think I said 6 earlier, I was -- I was no longer a -- in the ERT team 7 leader role. Sergeant Graham had taken that role over 8 for the number 1 district ERT team. 9 So I was no longer in that capacity; I 10 assumed this role that was laid out in the plan. 11 Q: Okay. And just so that we can -- so 12 that I can understand, the -- would the -- in your role 13 under Project Maple as the -- the four (4) items that 14 have been identified, that you identified for us 15 yesterday, would instructions, in the normal course, flow 16 from John Carson to you to Sergeant Graham as the head of 17 the ERT team; or John Carson, Mark Wright, to you, to 18 Sergeant Graham? 19 Or would they flow Sergeant -- John Carson 20 to -- or Mark Wright to Sergeant Graham, as an example? 21 I'm just trying to understand how it 22 worked. 23 A: Yeah. The -- the chain of command 24 was set up and I mean it's -- the OPP was structured and 25 that's why you have different ranks on -- on how
821 decisions are made and who makes them and who implements 2 them. 3 And basically, Inspector Carson was -- was 4 the Incident Commander, so any decisions regarding 5 anything that happened down there were his. And most of 6 the time -- I shouldn't say most of the time, the way it 7 was supposed to flow is the decision would come from him. 8 And -- and if it concerned something to do 9 with the operations on the ground, you could come 10 directly to me or -- or through Mark Wright, depending on 11 what was going on and how busy he was and -- and the 12 nature of -- of whatever decision was made, but it was -- 13 it was a top down flow. 14 Q: And would -- from time to time the 15 Incident Commander could go directly to the ERT team 16 leader? 17 A: He could, sure. And, as well, then 18 there's your -- you've got two (2) ERT teams on -- on the 19 ground, as we say, and -- and down at the checkpoints. 20 And you had a -- a leader at the TOC, down 21 at the MNR parking lot, and he could -- you know, he was 22 supervising the -- the ERT leaders or the ERT teams on 23 the ground if there were some minor adjustments made or - 24 - or the smaller details, so that there was that 25 structure down there, too, that they would look -- they
831 could look after those things there. 2 Q: And on September 5th, the date -- the 3 day teams were 3 and 6 ERT? 4 A: During the day shift, yes. 5 Q: And so that would the -- was Mr. 6 Graham the -- when you had 3 and 6 -- the 3 and 6 ERT 7 teams out, there would be two (2) that -- they would each 8 have a team leader and each have an assistant team 9 leader, in the normal course? 10 A: Yes. If they were all there. I 11 don't know if all the assistants for each team were 12 there, I don't recall. 13 Q: And how was it decided which one 14 would be Lima 1 and which one would be Lima 2? 15 A: Lima 2 was the ERT leader at the -- 16 at the TOC and Lima 1 would be the ERT leader that's at 17 the Command Post. 18 Q: But -- and it could have been either, 19 in this case, from the 3 or the 6 ERT? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Now -- 22 A: I think -- I think we left it to them 23 to identify who would be -- 24 Q: Who would be doing it? 25 A: Yeah. That was their -- that was
841 their decision. 2 Q: And do you recall the briefing that 3 you gave to the 3 and 6 ERT on the morning of September 4 the 5th? 5 A: I -- I don't recall it specifically, 6 but certainly when the -- they -- they had just shown up 7 there, so checkpoint locations, maps... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Checkpoints, maps, administrative, 12 there's, you know, any incidents reported, the -- kind of 13 there were -- were any reports, if they needed any 14 equipment, radio frequencies. We had some -- some 15 communication problems in the area, as you could hear 16 from some of the -- the previous calls. 17 What radio frequency they were using, who 18 would be at the TOC, when they're going to get their 19 lunches and what -- 20 Q: Those kinds of things -- 21 A: -- where they can get gas for their 22 cruisers, those kinds of -- some of the -- some of the 23 team members may have been there before, as a result of 24 the rotation ERT teams through the summer, and some 25 members may have been new, so we had to go through kind
851 of those administrative and -- details for them. 2 Q: And actually at Tab 17, if you just 3 go to page 18 of Exhibit P-426, there's a reference 4 starting at 7:11 running down to 7:50 on the next page. 5 It appears that Trevor Richardson, John 6 Carson, you and Mark Wright met with the ERT teams. And 7 I take it this was the -- the briefing that you have 8 noted in your book? 9 A: Yes, well, there was a meeting, "re. 10 ERT". I don't think we were meeting with -- with the ERT 11 teams. 12 Q: If you go down to 7:29: 13 "John Carson stood in on Mark Wright's 14 debriefing of 3 and 6 ERT's." 15 Then -- that's at 7:29. At 7:40, John 16 Carson briefing: 17 "All we want at this point is to 18 contain the area." 19 But that may -- you don't know if that was 20 -- that may simply be a briefing among the command team 21 as opposed to the ERT teams? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Well, at the 7:29, of the scribe
861 notes, it's probably wrong there. 2 "John Carson stood in on Mark 3 Wright's." 4 It should have been the briefing of 3 and 5 6 ERT. 6 Q: Because there was a day team? 7 A: Yes. They were -- they were going 8 out; when you come back you get debriefs. So, at six 9 o'clock I would have looked after the, what I just talked 10 about, that kind of administrative stuff. 11 And now Mark Wright is briefing 3 and 6 12 ERT on -- on their duties. 13 Q: And then there's a note, John Carson, 14 at the top of page 19, starting at 7:40 at the bottom of 15 18, John Carson briefing: 16 "All we want at this point is to 17 contain the area. Today we have to 18 access everything, just control the 19 area. We don't want to get ambushed. 20 JOHN CARSON: Nobody will be alone. 21 MARK WRIGHT: Distributed 8x10aerial 22 photographs to sergeants, ERT's. 23 MARK WRIGHT: We want everyone in greys 24 in the road. 25 JOHN CARSON: Plan on being here for a
871 few days." 2 And that's with respect to people being in 3 attendance for a few days? 4 A: Yeah. So it looks like they were -- 5 John Carson and Mark Wright were -- were briefing -- both 6 involved in briefing the 3 and 6 ERT. 7 Q: And "in greys"; it means their grey - 8 - their grey ERT -- 9 A: Their grey tactical ERT uniforms -- 10 Q: -- ERT uniforms? 11 A: -- yes. 12 Q: And the -- then there's a note that 13 at 7:55 that -- excuse me, at 8:27 that: 14 "John Carson received call from Wade 15 Lacroix, advised 4 ERT we're trying to 16 contain it. 17 [And the] Objective to contain and 18 resolve it peacefully. No one in 19 community is in any danger as we have 20 adequate services present. At this 21 point request intendent (sic) is aware 22 of plans." 23 And the -- there's a comment, if you just 24 move forward to page 21, at 8:34: 25 "Inspector Carson advised that Marcel
881 Beaubien had been in contact with Staff 2 Sergeant Wade Lacroix and he advised 3 that he was calling the Premier." 4 Do you recall being told by Inspector 5 Carson that Wade Lacroix had spoken to Marcel Beaubien 6 who advised that he was calling the Premier? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: And do you recall any discussions on 9 the 5th or the 6th involving either the Premier, Marcel 10 Beaubien, the Solicitor General or the Minister of 11 Natural Resources? 12 A: No, sir. That -- that would have 13 been beyond my scope of what -- what I was involved in 14 this site; that was up for the incident commanders and 15 the higher levels of the OPP to deal with. I was not 16 privy to any of that. 17 Q: You weren't privy to any of that? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: And you didn't -- did you, on 20 September 5th or 6th, before the incident, speak to the 21 Premier or anyone on his behalf? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: Or the Attorney General or anyone on 24 his behalf? 25 A: No, sir.
891 Q: Or the Solicitor General or anyone on 2 his behalf? 3 A: No, sir. 4 Q: Or the Minister of Natural Resources, 5 other than perhaps Les Kobayashi, but anybody from the 6 Ministry -- the Minister's office? 7 A: No, sir. 8 Q: And so that do you recall being told 9 about any of the information or discussions that were 10 going on about the politicians? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: And were you a part of or do you 13 recall being told about the process for getting an 14 injunction? 15 Were you involved in that? 16 A: No, I wasn't involved in that, no. 17 Q: But did you hear anything about it? 18 A: Well I knew what an injunction was -- 19 was -- was a step in to -- the Inspector wanted to -- 20 wanted to pursue. 21 Q: And but there are references in the 22 scribe notes and we've evidence about the Blockade 23 Committee and the Blockade Committee being -- meeting. 24 Did you know anything at the time on the 25 5th and the 6th about what was happening at the Blockade
901 Committee? 2 A: I -- I didn't -- and I know in 3 preparing for this that I -- I seen that term and -- and 4 there was some -- some discussion about it but I -- I 5 really wasn't privy to -- to that as well. I was -- I 6 was focussed in doing what I was -- was suppose to do 7 here. 8 Q: You were doing -- you were focussed 9 on your job. 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And do you recall being told about 12 conversations that Ron -- that Inspector Carson had with 13 then-Inspector Ron Fox on the telephone? 14 A: No, sir. 15 Q: And did you know who Inspector Ron 16 Fox was at the time? 17 A: Yes I knew who he was. 18 Q: And the -- I -- from reading the 19 scribe notes and the testimony of -- of John Carson and 20 others, it would appear that there were fairly regular 21 meetings. I think John Carson said he wanted one, 22 approximately each -- an hour. 23 A: Yes. That's in my recollection. 24 Especially on -- on the first day when we're -- we're 25 getting setup and -- and -- and you know, the plan is
911 falling into place and he just wanted to be updated. 2 I think, we wanted about a five (5) minute 3 meeting on -- on every hour from each of the unit 4 commanders or however we were referred to in -- in the 5 chart that we're just to keep him informed as to our 6 progress and what was going on, if there was any 7 problems. 8 Q: And there's an entry at page 23 at 9 09:10 hours. 10 "Inspector Carson gave Sergeant Korosec 11 a kit containing checkpoint cards for 12 Sergeant Korosec to handle at his 13 discretion." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you -- can you recall today what 16 that was about? 17 A: I think it was referred to -- in the 18 OPP it was as a matter of course. There were certain -- 19 and I think they were called 'contact cards', again these 20 scribe notes so, that if you -- if you stopped a vehicle 21 that might have been suspicious or -- or you're a little 22 -- or -- or if -- depending on the circumstances in the 23 middle of the night and -- and a car with some 24 individuals had a criminal record and you weren't quite 25 sure what they're up to there is a -- what was called a
921 'contact card'. 2 And basically you filled out the details 3 of who, what, when, where. I believe the form number I 4 can even remember that, is an LE88, I think it was 5 referred to. 6 And that -- that would be used for -- for 7 intelligence purposes, that you turn it in at Detachment 8 and it would go to the Intelligence Branch. And so if 9 any crime happened to be committed overnight or the next 10 day, they -- they may have some suspects because this car 11 was checked on -- on a certain date. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And the -- in fact Mark Wright had 16 raised that issue at 9:02, the issue of intelligence logs 17 -- that's a little higher up the page. I don't know if 18 you were part of that conversation about the intelligence 19 logs but that correlates with what you just told us. 20 Now there's a meeting at page 24 at 9:25 21 in the morning of September the 5th and you appear to be 22 present along with Trevor Richardson, Mark Wright, John 23 Carson, Bill Dennis, Don Bell and Brad Seltzer? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And there's a note:
931 "Trevor Richardson states we have 2 people doing surveillance using the 3 binoculars and taking pictures to try 4 and identify people." 5 And did you have any -- play any role in 6 trying to identify people? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Did you have any role in dealing with 9 photographs that were taken? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Did you know if a photo -- photograph 12 book or photograph folder was created? 13 A: I know there was -- was some 14 discussion of -- about that, exactly what I can't recall. 15 Q: We may find out a little bit more. 16 Then there's a reference in the course of this briefing 17 at page 25 at the top of the page: 18 "John Carson discussed issue -- issue 19 about injunction. Stated that the 20 party the injunction is against has the 21 option to appear. Doubtful it will 22 happen today. Advised that Staff 23 Sergeant Lacroix has been in contact 24 with Marcel Beaubien, local Member of 25 Parliament. He is updating the Premier
941 on the situation." 2 That's in the scribe note. And from what 3 you've told me you don't recall that? 4 A: I -- I don't recall that. 5 Q: And what effect, if any, did that 6 knowledge have on you? 7 A: That was -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said he 9 didn't recall it. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's right. You 11 didn't recall. You're right. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I was 13 wondering how that question -- 14 15 CONTINUED BY DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: That he can't recall. So now, then 17 there's a note down the page: 18 "Stan Korosec said last night they 19 wanted to meet at noon today. 20 JOHN CARSON: Gather information on 21 what's going on in the Park, whether we 22 can get people in there. Want to get 23 ERT members in the Park and keep them 24 there." 25 And that's with respect to ERT team
951 leaders going back into the -- ERT members going back 2 into the Park; that's your understanding? 3 A: Yes, it's -- that's what I understand 4 from that, yes. 5 Q: Do you recall any of this discussion? 6 A: No. Eleven (11) years ago, I'm 7 sorry. 8 Q: Yeah, you -- you recall just what's - 9 - I appreciate it's eleven (11) years ago. 10 And then there's a note at the bottom of 11 the page about barriers; that MNR were arranging for 12 barriers to be delivered and ultimately they were going 13 to be delivered, if you look at the scribe notes the next 14 day, actually on the 7th, ultimately. 15 Now, do you recall anything about the 16 barriers? 17 A: I think there was some concern or 18 reports from some of the ERT members that vehicles had 19 been driving from Ipperwash Beach and gaining access into 20 the Provincial Park. 21 Q: So coming from the -- 22 A: From the Ravenswood -- from -- 23 Q: Area. Coming from the -- the west 24 and going east into the Park at the bottom of Army Camp 25 Road and the sandy parking lot?
961 A: Correct. 2 Q: And the barriers were going to go in 3 there? 4 A: That's my understanding, yes. 5 Q: And then at the top of page 26 Trevor 6 Richardson suggested that: 7 "Any vehicles we can get to can be 8 towed. 9 JOHN CARSON: Tow the cars out of 10 there. Ask Sergeant Korosec if there 11 was any ERT concerns. 12 Stan Korosec advised good bodies will 13 be a confrontation if it goes." 14 And does that assist -- do you have -- it 15 would appear that John Carson wanted cars towed and you 16 indicate that there might be a confrontation? Is that -- 17 A: Well, based on what I'd gone through 18 the last couple of days, I had some concerns that any -- 19 any vehicle that we're going to tow, you know, with -- 20 with police officers present may -- may draw some -- some 21 attention from -- from the occupiers and -- and that 22 could -- that could be a -- a flashpoint. 23 "Good bodies;" I mean we'd -- we'd have to 24 have a sufficient number of officers present if we're 25 going to tow a vehicle from anywhere -- location anywhere
971 outside the Park. 2 Q: And then if I could just turn you 3 back to page 24 there's a reference to Trevor Richardson, 4 the third paragraph down at 9:25: 5 "Trevor Richardson advised they are 6 preparing warrants for Roderick George, 7 Abraham David George, and Stewart 8 George. Window of a cruiser was 9 smashed out last night and also flare 10 was thrown at Constable Parks. Trevor 11 Richardson states they are going 12 through photographs." 13 And then there's a reference on page 26, 14 John Carson, the second paragraph: 15 "If you get an opportunity to get in, 16 arrest sus -- suspects, get in get out 17 with them. 18 Mark Wright advises getting a warrant 19 for Glenn George. Get pictures to show 20 the number 3 district officers who have 21 just arrived. 22 Stan Korosec advises that District 23 number 6 and Number 3 officers are out 24 there today. John Carson asked Korosec 25 if the communications were okay. Stan
981 Korosec advised that things were fine." 2 And do you have recollection today, after 3 having read this note, of what the photographs that were 4 being referred to were -- of who those photographs were? 5 A: Well, I think they were with respect 6 to what happened in the Park that night with -- with 7 Roderick and I guess David -- that was David George, 8 whoever was identified -- 9 Q: The three (3) individuals who were 10 identified plus Glenn George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the -- then there's a note, 13 second, third from the bottom: 14 "JOHN CARSON: Once we get in the 15 Park, remember public safety. 16 STAN KOROSEC: Put as many people in 17 the Park as possible." 18 And that was -- can you recall what that 19 was with respect to, going back into the Park to stay? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: It's hard to say, reading from -- 24 from the scribe notes, if there's any -- if -- if this 25 was referring to the injunction or not, I -- I don't
991 know. 2 It's snippets from that meeting. I don't 3 have any independent recollection of -- of that actually 4 -- that conversation. 5 Q: And then before we go on, I've been 6 advised by Ms. Tuck-Jackson that Mr. -- Constable Evans 7 has identified the call that's at P-1306 as having 8 started at 12:13 p.m. on September 5th, and it's 6:59 in 9 duration. 10 And Mr. Korosec has identified it. We 11 heard about four (4) minutes into the call. And Mr. Evan 12 -- Constable Evans thought the other person speaking in 13 the background at that time was -- I guess it would be 14 Sergeant Huntley. 15 Do you recall being on duty with Sergeant 16 Huntley on the 5th? 17 I think it's sergeant... 18 A: Yeah, it is sergeant. On the 5th? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Sergeant Huntley was the team leader 21 for the 6 district ERT team, so that makes sense. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: They were -- his team was on duty. 24 Q: And I'd like to thank Constable Evans 25 for doing that on very short notice.
1001 Now, on page 27, there's a note: 2 "Stan Korosec asked about the use of 3 the TRU team. 4 JOHN CARSON: Get an assessment of the 5 situation. Every hour have a briefing 6 so everyone knows what's going on." 7 Do you recall a discussion about a TRU 8 team? 9 A: I think I was just asking if -- if 10 they were in the area or if they were on standby. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I don't know if I had that question 13 asked of me from one of the ERT teams or from somebody 14 else. 15 Q: And at page 28, second entry: 16 "Mark Wright wants to have Vinnie 17 George meet with the occupants at noon 18 hour. John Carson instructed Brad 19 Seltzer go with him. Mark Wright to 20 check with Stan Korosec and have Vinnie 21 attend here at 11:00 hours." 22 And do you recall doing anything about 23 that? 24 A: I don't recall, but I may have made - 25 - placed the phone call to Vinnie.
1011 Q: And then at 11:04, there's -- at page 2 31. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Sergeant -- it's the third entry 7 down. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: At -- at 11:04 is a briefing meeting 10 and the third entry down: 11 "Sergeant Korosec sent the check sheets 12 out to the ERT members to fill out. 13 Also asked ERT members, is anyone 14 capable of operating a front end 15 loader. 16 Inspector Carson suggested Sergeant 17 Korosec to have his members go door to 18 door and make the public aware of their 19 presence. 20 Sergeant Korosec stated that any 21 comments they have received are 22 positive. 23 Inspector Carson stated to have some 24 discussion ahead of time because it's 25 the public's benefit that we are here.
1021 Sergeant Korosec states that duty 2 rosters for members working in Lampton 3 County will be faxed here. 4 Suggested that we get a list of Number 5 2 and Number 6 Districts and Inspector 6 Carson wants them to fax them in." 7 And did anything happen with respect to 8 the suggestion that you have the ERT team members go door 9 to door to make the public aware that you were there? 10 You seem to reply that they are aware that 11 you were there and there was a good reception? 12 A: That was the feedback I'd been 13 getting, from the ERT leaders anyway. 14 Q: And then at the bottom of the page, 15 there's a reference: 16 "Sergeant Korosec brought up the issue 17 of night vision glasses. Inspector 18 Carson states that TRU has six (6) 19 sets. Sergeant Korosec will look into 20 it." 21 And you were tasked to deal with the issue 22 of night vision glasses? 23 A: Correct. That may have come as a 24 result of requests from the ERT leaders to have that 25 available at night.
1031 Q: At night? 2 A: For the night, yes. 3 Q: And if you could turn to page 35 and 4 at 13:12 hours: 5 "Sergeant Korosec advised that 6 Constable Cossitt, Number 6 District, 7 can operate a front end loader. Also 8 advises there are no night visions 9 available." 10 And do you recall today why the -- you 11 wanted to know if someone could operate a front ender 12 loader? 13 A: That was in relation to the barriers 14 that we wanted to -- the Inspector wanted to -- to put up 15 at the end -- on the beach area there at the end of Army 16 Camp Road. 17 And I think the discussion was that given 18 the nature of the -- the situation and that down there, 19 that it might not be a good idea for a civilian to -- to 20 be doing that, because it may cause problems. 21 So not to put a civilian in -- in that 22 position and to find out if there was any ERT team member 23 -- I was asked to find out if any ERT team member could 24 do that. 25 Q: Okay. Then at 13:26 there's a note:
1041 "Inspector Carson asked Sergeant 2 Korosec to make sure Sergeant -- Staff 3 Sergeant Dennis is aware that TRU team 4 is reporting tonight by 7:00 p.m. 5 hours." 6 And that was with respect to -- what does 7 that refer to; just to make Bill Dennis aware? 8 A: Yeah. I believe Bill Dennis was 9 looking after accommodations, that was his task. So I 10 was asked to check with him and -- and let him know that 11 a TRU team is reporting so they had a place to stay. 12 Q: Okay. And then there's a reference 13 at page 36, 14:13 hours: 14 "Stan Korosec states that marine 15 patrols are being conducted. Also 16 states that Rob Shaw is a tank 17 commander." 18 And there are some entries and -- and that 19 you had some discussions with Rob Shaw about operating a 20 armoured personnel carrier. 21 Do you recall that? 22 A: Yes. I think I was asked to -- again 23 to find out who could operate -- which -- which -- what 24 police officer could operate one of these APV's, I think 25 they were.
1051 Q: And one of the -- you called -- what 2 were the initials. 3 A: I -- I thought it was an APV or -- 4 Q: Armoured personnel vehicle? 5 A: -- or -- or -- yes. 6 Q: And the -- and you identified -- 7 A: Rob Shaw? 8 Q: -- Rob Shaw and the -- did you 9 arrange for the marine patrol? Was that part of your -- 10 A: I don't know who called -- who called 11 them, but they did show up. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: And Rob Shaw was -- I worked with Rob 14 at -- at Forest Detachment, he was posted there early on 15 in my career. And I knew from getting to know him, like 16 you know guys, that he was involved in the Military, and 17 I -- I say tank commander, it might not be the right term 18 but that -- that's -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- probably why I thought of that. 21 Q: Then on page -- at page 38, the 22 second entry from the bottom, that is -- should be 15:42, 23 just above that: 24 "Sergeant Korosec advised the 25 Kincardine boat has arrived. Inspector
1061 Carson wanted Sergeant Korosec to 2 advise the Kincardine unit to keep 3 their eyes and ears open. Check boats. 4 Be out there from 19:00 hours until 5 7:00 hours -- 07:00 hours." 6 So they wanted them there overnight? 7 Do you recall that? 8 A: Yes. I don't recall that 9 conversation but... 10 Q: And on this page is also a reference 11 to Ron Fox and John Carson saying: 12 "We're on the right track with respect 13 to the injunction and Ron Fox sitting 14 on the Blockade Committee." 15 Do you have any recollection of that? 16 A: Where was that again? 17 Q: It's on the bottom of page 37, the 18 top of page 38 down to the entry at -- that I just read, 19 that involved you? 20 A: I -- I don't recall that 21 specifically, no. 22 Q: Okay. Then at page 40, 16:45 there's 23 a -- it appears to be the beginning of a briefing that 24 starts at page 39 actually: 25 "16:45, Staff -- Detective Sergeant
1071 Richardson advised warrants have been 2 issued; entered on CPIC. A search 3 warrant is not needed for videos. ERT 4 members have gathered check sheets. 5 Going to be run on CPIC." 6 Then there's reference to the vehicle 7 checks and a note that trees were knocked down. And then 8 at the top of page 40, the third paragraph down: 9 "Sergeant Korosec to request that 10 Detective Sergeant Richardson provide 11 his ERT members with a copy of 12 photographs of the accused and copies 13 of the warrants." 14 So that the -- you were asking that your 15 ERT team should be given photographs of the people that - 16 - for whom warrants had been issued, along with the 17 warrants? 18 A: Yeah, again, that may have been a 19 request made of me from probably -- from the ERT leaders, 20 that they have a copy of this, since they didn't -- they 21 may not have known -- be able to recognize people. 22 Q: Recognize? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then two (2) paragraphs down: 25 "Sergeant Korosec advises that Sergeant
1081 Graham has been briefed for this 2 evening." 3 And I take it Sergeant Graham was taking 4 over from you for the -- the night? 5 A: Well, there was no real -- there was 6 no person taking over for me that night. He would have 7 been the -- the Lima 1 -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- the ERT leader in the Command 10 Post. 11 Q: In the -- in the Command Post? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: There was only one (1) of you doing 14 the -- the overall work that you were doing? 15 A: Yes, there was. 16 Q: Sounds like -- 17 A: It -- 18 Q: -- they could have used two (2) of 19 you? 20 A: Well, and -- and really, during -- 21 during the -- during the night there wasn't that -- the 22 administrative, there's not -- there's not that much to-- 23 Q: Not much? 24 A: -- to look after. 25 Q: Then there's an entry that:
1091 "Staff Sergeant Dennis (phonetic) 2 inquired about whether TRU team is 3 being briefed. Inspector Carson 4 reported that they will be at the Park. 5 They will not be reporting here. 6 Carson advised Sergeant Korosec to 7 utilize the TRU team if needed. Also 8 advised debriefing members to make the 9 debriefs quick and get them on the 10 road. 11 John Carson asked Bill Dennis 12 (phonetic) if we were okay for rooms, 13 and replied, Yes." 14 Now, the -- in the -- "be at the Park" I 15 take it refers to Pinery Park? 16 A: They were at the Pinery Park, yes. 17 Q: And the reference: 18 "Carson advised Sergeant Korosec to 19 utilize the TRU team if needed." 20 A: I wouldn't be the one who utilized 21 their TRU team, make the call, that's -- that's -- that's 22 wrong. I -- I don't know what the scribe meant when they 23 wrote that, but it certainly wouldn't be -- the only one 24 who can activate a TRU team is -- is an incident 25 commander.
1101 Q: So that -- 2 A: An inspector rank or higher, and 3 that's certainly nothing that I would do or would even 4 consider doing. 5 Q: Nor -- 6 A: Nor could I do. 7 Q: -- from what you say, could you do. 8 A: I mean, a TRU team would not take 9 instructions to activate from -- from a sergeant. 10 Q: Okay. Then at the bottom, again: 11 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles." 12 This was on a telephone -- I take it this 13 was a call that John Carson had. 14 Did you overhear a call, Carson speaking 15 to Chief Coles about Marcel Beaubien and the Premier? 16 A: No, sir. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Then at -- if I can ask you to turn 21 at -- to page 41. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And at the bottom of the page there's
1111 an entry, 16:07, but that's an error. It's been 2 corrected to 18:07. 3 And these... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: At the top of page 42, there's a 8 note: 9 "Sergeant Korosec states that Dan Rioux 10 will be providing him with five (5) 11 sets of night vision glasses. They're 12 arranging Outer Drive patrols. They're 13 being well received. Inspector Carson 14 wants people with night vision glasses 15 to be out and around Outer Drive to get 16 a sense for what's going on in the 17 area. 18 Detective Sergeant Wright suggests that 19 eight (8) hours officers be put at 20 Highway Number 21 as he fear First 21 Nations may be bolder tonight. 22 Inspector Carson stated if the First 23 Nations get lippy, don't take too much. 24 If they become pushy, arrest -- 25 arrested them and get them out of
1121 there. 2 Detective Sergeant Richardson states 3 that one hundred (100) arrest packages 4 have been prepared. 5 Photographs of the suspects given to 6 Sergeant Korosec, suspects put on CPIC. 7 If arrests, taken to Justice of the 8 Peace for release, not officer in 9 charge." 10 And the suspects that are be -- referring 11 to, do you recall today who they were, this -- were 12 they -- 13 A: I think they're referring to that -- 14 the incident in the Park -- 15 Q: Roderick George and David George and 16 the Stuart George -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- and Glenn George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And did you get some photographs of 21 the suspects? 22 A: I don't recall, but I imagine I did 23 and... 24 Q: And then there's a report from 25 Sergeant Skinner, who was the head of the -- the TRU team
1131 at the time, do you recall that; Kent Skinner? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And there's also a reference on -- 4 it's in the handwritten notes at -- for this meeting. I 5 don't need to take you to it, but it says: 6 "Getting heat from political side. 7 Made strong comments in the House." 8 Do you recall hearing those comments? 9 A: No, sir. 10 Q: Then according to your -- just before 11 you went off duty, and I've provided you with a -- if you 12 look at that blue folder, Sergeant Korosec, you'll find a 13 -- some additional -- if you go down past that page 14 there's a whole series of additional telephone 15 transcripts. 16 And this is one that is identified as 17 being at 19:51 hours, it's a conversation between 18 yourself and Ed Robertson. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: At... 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 25
1141 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 2 [ER = Inspector Ed Robertson] 3 4 SK: Sergeant Korosec. 5 ER: Stanley. 6 SK: Yes? 7 ER: Ed Robertson. 8 SK: How ya doing? 9 ER: Good. 10 SK: What can we do - 11 ER: The night vision is on its way. 12 SK: Okay. 13 ER: What I think they've done, Stan, is, there 14 was 15 a special battery for these things, a 6.5 16 volt. But it looks like a "D" cell, like 17 a flashlight battery. 18 SK: Right. 19 ER: It looks like they've manufactured a 20 battery pack that takes four pen lights in 21 lieu of. 22 SK: Okay. 23 ER: So just make sure nobody uses "D" cells in 24 it because it won't be powerful enough. 25 SK: Okay. We've got the pen lights. The
1151 double "A's"? 2 ER: Yeah. They're double "A's". 3 SK: Okay. 4 ER: But it takes four pen lights, which is - 5 SK: Okay. 6 ER: ... inaudible. 7 SK: Okay. We've got a box of them right here. 8 ER: Okay. It looks like they've made these 9 little battery packs that fits in where 10 this other battery used to go. 11 SK: Okay. 12 ER: Okay. These are U.S. military. 13 SK: Yeah. 14 ER: Okay? 15 SK: Okay. 16 ER: Good man. 17 SK: All right. We're having fun. 18 ER: Oh, I know you are. 19 SK: Yeah. 20 ER: Keep your head down. 21 SK: We will. 22 ER: All right. 23 SK: Thanks. 24 ER: Bye. 25 SK: Bye-bye.
1161 End of conversation 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And that conversation you had with 7 Inspector Robinson about the -- Robertson, excuse me, 8 about the night vision glasses? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And about the batteries for the night 11 vision glasses? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the -- that occurred just before 14 you went off duty at eight o'clock? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And I would ask that be the next 17 exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1307, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1307: Transcript of Region 04, Stan 21 Korosec, Ed Robertson, 22 September 05, 1995, 19:51 23 hrs, Mobile Command Unit: OPP 24 Logger tape number 2, Track 25 1, Disc 1 of 3.
1171 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And when you went off duty, you -- 4 can you recall today where you went? 5 A: I imagine I probably got something to 6 eat and went back to my -- back to my room, probably had 7 a nice shower, called home. I'd been busy for the last 8 couple of days so I probably called home and talked for 9 awhile there. Get ready to get some sleep, finally. 10 Q: And by this time you had been -- you 11 had -- the break you had had was between three o'clock 12 and six o'clock on -- you were on duty on the 4th of the 13 -- morning of the 5th at three o'clock and then back on 14 duty at six o'clock on the morning of the 6th? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Then at 22:50 you get a call, and 17 it's also in the little package of material that you have 18 there, at 22:50 hours from Sergeant Cousineau. 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 Unknown Female: Forest Golf and Country 24 Hotel, may I help you 25 Cousineau: Yes, can you tell me what
1181 room, or can you put me 2 through to Stan Korosec's 3 room? 4 Unknown Female: Just a moment please. 5 Cousineau: Thank you. 6 Korosec: Hello 7 Cousineau: Stan? 8 Korosec: Yes 9 Cousineau: It's Bob Cousineau 10 Korosec: Yes Bob. 11 Cousineau: Listen, you made arrangements 12 for the night vision 13 equipment? 14 Korosec: Supposed to be there about 15 midnight. 16 Cousineau: Yeah, it's here, 17 Korosec: OK 18 Cousineau: Can you explain what we're 19 supposed to do about 20 batteries? 21 Korosec: Can you see where the 22 batteries go in? 23 Cousineau: Yeah 24 Korosec: Ok, are there batteries in 25 them?
1191 Cousineau: No, well one of them came 2 with a 6.5 volt battery, 3 Korosec: OK 4 Cousineau: Expired Š84 5 Korosec: OK, then toss those, 6 Cousineau: Yeah 7 Korosec: And we'll put in the new ones 8 that are there. 9 Cousineau: Which new ones? 10 Korosec: The double "A"s in the 11 little box 12 Cousineau: How many? 13 Korosec: There's supposed to be four. 14 Inspector Robertson said that 15 it looks like they've 16 modified it to fit four 17 double "A"s in there. 18 Cousineau: Oh, so it's supposed to work 19 if we shove four double "A" 20 batteries in. 21 Korosec: Yeah. 22 Cousineau: OK - Four double "A"s that 23 give us 6.5 ? That's not 24 gonna work Stan. That's not 25 gonna work either because if
1201 we put them all together, 2 you're only gonna get a 1.5 3 volts, but you'll get the 4 amp, like the.. 5 Korosec: He said they modified them to 6 fit the,.. those double "A" 7 batteries. Like a little,... 8 is there anything else that 9 came with them? 10 Cousineau: No. 11 Korosec: Did you try...They don't fit 12 in there or what? 13 Cousineau: Well I, like it's a two inch 14 hole..Like if we put a pen 15 light in there like the 16 double "A", what do I do 17 with the other inch and a 18 half worth of space? 19 Korosec: Is this a....maybe there's 20 another compartment on there, 21 I doubt it eh. 22 Cousineau: We can't find anything, 23 Wade's looked at it. Who did 24 you talk to, is there a phone 25 number I can get in touch
1211 with him at, or..? 2 Korosec: Ed Robertson, he's an 3 inspector in Field 4 Coordination Branch. He told 5 me over the phone they were 6 supposed to fix these. One 7 came with a 6.5 volt battery 8 or something? 9 Cousineau: Um Hum 10 Korosec: OK. He says it looks like 11 they've, and that's almost 12 the size of a "D" cell isn't 13 it? 14 Cousineau: Yeah, it's actually bigger 15 than a "D" cell. 16 Korosec: Yeah 17 Cousineau: Yup. 18 Korosec: But he said it looks like 19 they've modified it to fit 20 four double "A"s. They've 21 made something up for them. 22 Cousineau: They've made something up for 23 them. 24 Korosec: Yup 25 Cousineau: Apparently there supposed to
1221 have been made something up 2 that will hold four double 3 "A" batteries in that. 4 Obviously they didn't send 5 that piece down. 6 Korosec: Well, where are we gonna.. 7 I've haven't even heard of a 8 6.5 volt battery. 9 Cousineau: Yeah, it's a great big 10 monster. I've never seen one 11 before either. I don't even 12 know where we could get one 13 of those. 14 Korosec: Yeah, that's why I think 15 they've... 16 17 MCU background conversation: 18 19 ...been a special battery and I don't even know what 20 they're talking about with these "D" cells and double "A" 21 cells because...one or two of them have.. batteries in 22 them and the rest of them don't. And they're a real odd 23 battery. 24 Cousineau: OK, I just thought you might 25 know some secret that I
1231 didn't. 2 Korosec: That's, that's all he told 3 me,.. 4 Cousineau: All right, 5 Korosec: Bob, they've done something 6 to modify it to fit those in. 7 So, I don't know, but if you 8 can't do nothing with them, 9 we'll wait till the morning 10 and.. 11 Cousineau: Call them 12 Korosec: ..call them in the morning 13 Cousineau: OK 14 Korosec: Okey-Doke 15 Cousineau: Just to let you know, three 16 of your cruisers have been 17 damaged. 18 Korosec: By what? 19 Cousineau: Rocks 20 Korosec: From where? 21 Cousineau: Inbound from the park, or 22 outbound from the park. 23 Korosec: Which checkpoint was that? 24 Cousineau: It's down by the main 25 entrance.
1241 Korosec: The store area? 2 Cousineau: Can you hear this 3 Background in MCU: The guys went down there 4 because they 5 had moved some picnic tables, 6 had them onto the roadway 7 area I guess, to block the 8 road. They went down there 9 to check it out, and when 10 they went down there the 11 rocks started coming in. Rob 12 said some big rocks, from the 13 trees. But he can't see 14 anybody of course. He's 15 cleared them out of there. 16 One of the guys from "C" they 17 sent down there as well with 18 him. And that's when they 19 got hit. They're not getting 20 hit at "C". 21 Cousineau: OK, did you hear that? 22 Background in MCU: He says that if they start 23 firing rocks 24 at him on "C", he's going to, 25 you know, may have to move
1251 "C". 2 Cousineau: Did you hear all that? 3 Korosec: Checkpoint "C" 4 Cousineau: It was actually right down at 5 Army Camp and East Parkway, 6 where it happened, 7 Korosec: Right, 8 Cousineau: Three cruisers, windshields 9 Korosec: Alright, 10 Cousineau: So, 11 Korosec: OK, get them the usual, get 12 Standard Auto Glass in, in 13 the morning 14 Cousineau: Yeah, no problem, Speedy or 15 whoever it is, 16 Korosec: I think Standard has the 17 contract 18 Cousineau: Is it Standard, OK, it's been 19 so long, 20 Korosec: Yeah, that'll be written 21 somewhere, I'm pretty sure 22 it's Standard Auto Glass. 23 They were there today, 24 actually, 25 Cousineau: Were they? They'll probably
1261 get a lot of business from us 2 while we're here, so 3 Korosec: OK 4 Cousineau: OK, well, if you don't know 5 anything that we don't know 6 about these, then 7 Korosec: That's, that's what he told 8 me on the phone, 9 Cousineau: Expensive paper weights. 10 11 Background in MCU: They've taken the batteries 12 together... 13 14 Cousineau: Where'd you get that? Well, 15 Kevin just found something 16 special, we may have 17 something 18 Korosec: There you go. 19 Cousineau: I'll let you go. 20 Korosec: OK 21 Cousineau: Bye 22 Korosec: Bye, Bob. 23 24 End of conversation 25
1271 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And that's a conversation you had 5 with Sergeant Cousineau with respect to the batteries? 6 That was Sergeant Cousineau? 7 A: Yes. A very frustrating 8 conversation. 9 Q: And the person in the background, did 10 you recognize his name? 11 A: That was Wayde Jacklin. 12 Q: Wayde Jacklin? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I would ask that be marked the 15 next exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1308, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1308: MCU recording transcript, 19 Korosec and Cousineau, 20 September 05, 1995, 22:50 21 hrs. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And when he was telling you about the 25 -- the rock incident, that cruiser being damaged, he
1281 asked -- Cousineau says -- you asked: 2 "Which checkpoint was that?" 3 That's on page 4. And Mr. -- Sergeant 4 Cousineau says: 5 "It's down by the main entrance." 6 And then you say: 7 "The store area." 8 And what you're referring to is the camp 9 store? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And were you referring to the exit in 12 the fence that leads onto the sandy parking lot, there 13 was a fence, there was a -- there was a gate at the... 14 A: Yeah. I believe the store was 15 located right in that area. 16 Q: It was located right in that area. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: All right. 20 Q: -- there was a fence along the east 21 side of the sandy parking lot. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And had a gate in -- a gate at one 24 end, the south end, and then a turnstile, in the sandy -- 25 do you recall that?
1291 A: Not -- not specifically. I knew the 2 store was in that -- in that area. 3 Q: Then at Tab 21 of your book, there's 4 another conversation that you had, and this one has been 5 marked as Exhibit P-1154. And this one now is at 23:32 6 hours, and it's from Wayde Jacklin who was in the 7 background in the conversation at P-1308. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 10 11 [CP = Command Post] 12 [SK = Stan Korosec] 13 [WJ = Wade Jacklin] 14 15 CP: Command Post, Molly. 16 SK: Hi. Is Bob there? Cousineau? 17 CP: No. Where did Bob go? 18 Unknown: He's out doing a line check. 19 CP: He's out doing a line check. 20 SK: Could I talk to Wade, please? Jacklin. 21 22 CP: Pardon me? 23 SK: Wade Jacklin, please. 24 CP: Wade Jacklin ... 25 SK: He's right beside you.
1301 CP: Hold on. 2 WJ: Hello. 3 SK: Wade? 4 WJ: Yes? 5 SK: Stan here. 6 WJ: Stanley. You're not in bed yet? 7 SK: No, I was. I think this is a pager that 8 went off an hour late. Again. 9 WJ: Oh, yeah? 10 SK: 'Cause it says, "Bob Cousineau, Comm. 11 Centre" - or "call me at Command Post." 12 WJ: Oh, really? 13 SK: I think it was probably that conversation 14 we had whenever. 15 WJ: You were sleeping? 16 SK: Yeah. 17 WJ: Oh, isn't that nice. No, he never 18 mentioned anything to me, Stan, at all 19 about, you know, you calling here. 20 SK: I think it was probably before when he 21 asked about the night vision. 22 WJ: Right. 23 SK: When he was talking with me. 24 WJ: We just got the - okay. We just put the 25 night vision out.
1311 SK: Okay. 2 WJ: It's the old style that I'm just used to. 3 SK: Yeah. The old I - I Scope. 4 WJ: No, he never - he never paged you in the 5 last little bit. 6 SK: Yeah, he probably paged me before. 7 WJ: Yeah. 8 SK: This fucking thing. I'm going to fucking 9 give McLean Hunter shit tomorrow. 10 WJ: Well, I have your - I have your room. 11 Well, of course ... 12 SK: Well, he ended up calling me. 13 WJ: Hm-mmm. 14 SK: This was - I'll have to give McLean Hunter 15 shit. Okay. We got some rocks thrown at 16 our cruisers? 17 WJ: Yeah. We've got three cars - damaged 18 cruisers. 19 SK: Windows? 20 WJ: Yup. To - there's damage to windshields 21 and they did a little damage to some of 22 the hoods of the cars, too. 23 SK: Little fuckers. 24 WJ: Yeah. The Inspector's in here anyway. 25 SK: Rocks?
1321 WJ: He's aware of it. Yeah. I - well, I 2 guess somewhere between a rock and a 3 boulder. A pretty good size I guess. 4 SK: Yeah. Where did this happen? In front of 5 the gate? 6 WJ: No. By the - more towards the main gate 7 of the Provincial Park. 8 SK: Yeah. The main gate. 9 WJ: Oh, that's what you were thinking? Oh, 10 okay. Yup. 11 SK: Okay. Well, did the guys go down there 12 for something? 13 WJ: Well, yeah. There was some stuff they 14 put, you know, on the road I guess. And 15 there was a fire down there. 16 SK: Yeah. 17 WJ: So they went down to check it out and got 18 pelted. 19 SK: Yeah. They were baited. 20 WJ: Yup. 21 SK: Well, live and learn, live and learn. 22 This - their day will fucking come. 23 WJ: Yeah. 24 SK: I was talking to Mark Wright tonight. 25 WJ: Hm-mmm.
1331 SK: We want to amass a fucking army. 2 WJ: Hm-mmm. 3 SK: A real fucking army and do this - do these 4 fuckers big time. But I don't want to 5 talk about it because I'll get all hyped 6 up. 7 WJ: And you won't be able to sleep. 8 SK: And I won't be able to sleep. Okay. What 9 time is it? Quarter to twelve. Okay. 10 WJ: Back to bed. 11 SK: Steady up 12 WJ: Okay. 13 SK: Fine. 14 WJ: Have a good night." 15 16 End of conversation 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And that's your voice on that call, 22 and Wayde Jacklin? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And the reference to the night vision 25 glasses as being the old style, what did that refer to?
1341 A: I guess there's -- there was a 2 different, what they call, generation of night vision 3 glasses. There was probably the original issue and then 4 as they -- they -- you know, new and improved, there -- 5 there was -- 6 Q: And these were -- 7 A: -- a second generation. I think 8 these were -- were the old ones. 9 Q: Okay. And then you sound quite 10 annoyed here, and could you tell us why? 11 A: Well, to put this call in 12 perspective, first of all I -- I don't recall the 13 conversation at all. As we know I'd been up for a couple 14 of days now and a lot has happened, and maybe two (2) 15 hours sleep in the -- in the last couple of days. 16 Certainly the incident at the front of the 17 Park was really a -- it really bothered me a lot. And I 18 don't know if you can tell when I talk about it, I'm 19 still a little bit emotional about that. 20 So I've got -- I've got very little sleep 21 and a lot has happened to me and I'm -- I'm exhausted; 22 physically and mentally and probably emotionally too. 23 Then we -- I'm trying to get to sleep. 24 And this phone call prior to this one, as 25 I listened to them, sounds like I hadn't gotten to bed
1351 yet, but it's a very arduous and frustrating phone call, 2 as we're dealing with these stupid batteries that they're 3 -- they're trying to figure out. 4 I just want to get some sleep and, you 5 know, it's -- it's clear that Wayde Jacklin is in the 6 background of the call and I can -- I know Wayde's voice, 7 I worked with him for many years. 8 And they tell me, in the -- in the phone 9 call previous to this last one, about the incident that 10 occurred with the rocks. And my response is, All right, 11 whatever, let's get Standard Auto Glass or wherever we 12 have to to get them fixed up and make arrangements to get 13 it done in the morning, very matter of factly, Okay, 14 we'll look after it. 15 I don't know the duration of that call but 16 when I get called again, I can tell from my voice that 17 I've been woken up out of the sleep I was -- I was dying 18 to get. 19 Q: It appears that you got a page. 20 A: Or a page, yes. Now, I do recall 21 that our -- our pagers, for some reason, and maybe it was 22 the area we were in, if you had paged somebody it -- it 23 would -- the -- the pager would not go off for -- for 24 some time. And I think I -- I referred to that in the 25 call, it's going off an hour late again.
1361 So I call in and find out that that's 2 exactly what it was, that I really didn't need to call in 3 and get woken up. And I'm even cursing the pager and 4 McLean Hunter was -- and I hope they're not still in 5 business, but they were -- they were the ones that 6 supplied the pagers to us. So I'm even cursing McLean 7 Hunter a couple of times. 8 And then for some reason, the conversation 9 we had earlier, I'm -- I'm going through it again about 10 finding out what happened with the windows and the 11 cruisers and -- and the rocks, and I'd been told about it 12 before. This goes, I think, to what my state of mind was 13 at the time. 14 And, yeah, I -- I'm grumpy and I'm tired 15 anyway. I'm grumpy but this was -- I was beyond tired at 16 this point and woken up for -- for no good -- well, for 17 what I found out is no good reason anyway. 18 This discussion about amassing an army and 19 do these -- do these guys big time, arrest them, charge 20 them, whatever, I don't recall any discussion and I say I 21 talked with Mark Wright. I don't even think I saw Mark 22 Wright that night. After leaving Forest I say I get back 23 to my hotel, eat, shower, call home and -- and get some 24 sleep. 25 So I'm -- I'm real grumpy and then on
1371 paper, yeah, it doesn't -- it doesn't look good, but when 2 you put it in the context of what I'd been through, the 3 physical, emotional, mental state I was in. 4 I'm sure the next morning and -- and from 5 -- from Wayde Jacklin, I'm talking to Wayde Jacklin, the 6 constable in the Command Post, so I'm not telling this to 7 an inspector or -- or to a briefing of anybody. 8 It's a middle the -- middle of the night, 9 for me, anyway, phone call. I think he understands and 10 could tell that I was very tired and pretty grumpy at the 11 time. 12 I don't recall even the next morning if I 13 -- I probably didn't even remember this call. Probably 14 didn't have any discussions with anybody about it. I 15 went about the next day doing the job I was suppose to 16 do. 17 Q: And I appreciate it, that it's eleven 18 (11) years later that we're looking at this, but when you 19 read the words on the paper it would -- it appears that 20 you wanted to get together a number of officers and go 21 down and arrest all of the people in the Park. 22 A: I -- I don't know if I was referring 23 to those that threw the rocks at fellow officers. I 24 think -- my -- my actions prior to this point, when I was 25 a decision maker and when I was with ERT on the ground,
1381 was always to keep the peace. 2 I tried to avoid confrontation on many 3 occasions when there was the fire, and when Gransden and 4 Dougan dealt with individuals drinking on the beach, 5 certainly with Judas and the confronta -- verbal 6 confrontation we had there, when the Park was entered. 7 And more importantly that night in the 8 Park when we were gathered by the front kiosk there, I 9 did everything I could, even to negotiate there at the 10 last minute at the gate when they come in. 11 So confrontation and -- and stirring up 12 trouble and going and arresting people was -- was not my 13 philosophy, not in my philosophy in my policing career 14 and -- and -- and even at this time. 15 So I -- I demonstrated that that's the 16 approach I wanted to take in the support of Inspector 17 Carson's mission of containing and negotiating a peaceful 18 resolution. 19 I didn't want to see any -- any -- any 20 trouble or fights break out or confrontation. I tried to 21 do the opposite. It bothers me to hear this tape, every 22 time I hear it, because even though it's my voice, it's 23 not me. 24 Q: Okay. And you attribute that to your 25 lack of sleep and being wakened up by a pager that was
1391 not necessary. 2 A: And -- and certainly -- I mean I've 3 always shown concern for officers under my command or 4 fellow officers, and I guess to hear that they were 5 assaulted with boulders, you know, with enough force or 6 size that may have -- that broke windshields, you know, I 7 was thinking what happened if it hit one of them in the 8 head. 9 Q: Did -- 10 A: So it -- it was a combination of 11 those things and hearing that officers were -- were 12 assaulted with these boulders. 13 Q: Were you ever advised that one of the 14 -- at least one of the cruisers was damaged by a picnic 15 table? 16 A: I didn't know that. 17 Q: And that one of the cruisers, 18 actually the cruiser operated by Constable Whelan was 19 used to push into the picnic tables? 20 A: I don't think I was aware of that. 21 Q: And that according to Constable 22 Whelan they were three (3) to four (4) -- piled three (3) 23 to four (4) high and one of them fell on the hood of the 24 car as he was pushing it with his cruiser? 25 A: No.
1401 Q: You weren't aware of that? 2 A: I wasn't aware of that. 3 Q: And no one told you that on the 4 evening of the 5th? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Then you -- after this call you went 7 back on duty on the morning of September the 6th at 6:00 8 a.m.; is that correct? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And that's at page 21 of your 11 notebook. Exhibit -- Commissioner, at Tab 13, Exhibit P- 12 1302. 13 A: Page 13? 14 Q: Yes. It's -- it's Tab 13, it's not - 15 - it's Tab 13, page 21. 16 A: Oh. Sorry. Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And just before I go to that, if you 21 could turn back -- now, I'll just tell you, at page 44 of 22 the scribe notes, there's an entry at 21:06, although it 23 doesn't appear that you're at this meeting. 24 The meeting: Sergeant Cousineau, Kent 25 Skinner, Wayde Jacklin, Inspector Linton, Mark Dew and
1411 Steve Reid. 2 And it refers to Wayde Jacklin: 3 "Have four (4) arrest warrants for 4 persons. No concerns by anyone." 5 And it would appear you weren't part of 6 that discussion. 7 A: I don't think so. 8 Q: But the arrest warrants refer to the 9 four (4) individuals we discussed before? 10 A: I imagine so. 11 Q: Now, the -- there's a note in your 12 book: 13 "On-duty at command post, 06:00, 06:30. 14 Briefed day shift number 3 and 6 ERT. 15 CP duties at Forest." 16 And then the next entry is: 17 "18:30, briefed night shift at first 1 18 and 2 ERT." 19 Is that correct? 20 A: Correct, yes. 21 Q: And then the next entry is 17:30 -- 22 A: Well -- 23 Q: 19:30, excuse me. 24 "Debriefed day shift." 25 And then we'll get back to that in a
1421 moment. But if I could ask you to open the scribe note, 2 Tab 17, Exhibit P-426 and turn to page 47. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And at the bottom, at 6:34 it appears 7 that -- the entry is: 8 "Mark Wright and Stan Korosec and John 9 Carson meeting with Inspector Linton 10 briefing. Three (3) vehicles damaged 11 in Army Camp Road. Bonfire. They back 12 off. Five (5) night glasses were 13 distributed. Constable Parks, of fifty 14 (50) to a hundred (100) rounds of auto 15 fire. Back hoe and dump trucks 16 running. 17 CHRIS MARTIN: Activity all night. 18 Male, females, children. Very little 19 action at kiosk." 20 And then at page 48: 21 "Cruisers damaged, three (3) vehicles." 22 Then John Carson asks about whether 23 Superintendent Parkin knows that. Then John Carson says: 24 "I think we should have them here now." 25 Referring to K-9.
1431 "JOHN CARSON: Regarding armoured 2 vehicle. We need to get some training 3 for the guys. Inspector Linton, we 4 should have them here. I know it's 5 hard to do." 6 John Carson to Kent Skinner: 7 "Can you see if you can look into the 8 Pinery for storing them and also some 9 police identity, some stuff from 10 transport van, want it clearly marked 11 as police." 12 And what was your understanding of the -- 13 why John Carson wanted a armoured personnel vehicle? 14 A: I think that was for the purposes of 15 -- of an emergency, an extrication if somebody got hurt, 16 they would be able to quickly and safety remove them, if 17 it happened near the Park or even in the Park at some 18 point, or whatever. 19 It was more for a defensive purpose, I 20 guess, more than offensive purpose. 21 Q: And the -- Chris Martin who's 22 referred to in this entry was monitoring the video at the 23 -- in the kiosk or gate house in the maintenance 24 building; was that your understanding? 25 A: I believe so.
1441 Q: And the fifty (50) to one hundred 2 (100) rounds of auto fire, do you have any recollection 3 beyond what's in -- do you have any recollection of what 4 was said about the gunfire? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: And the -- there's a reference at 17 7 -- 7:18 hours about potential problems with fires near 8 adjacent houses. 9 Were -- and at that's in a telephone call, 10 it appears, with Inspector Fox. What -- did you -- do 11 you recall any discussions with you or Mark Wright or 12 Inspector Carson about fires and concerns about fires in 13 the sandy parking lot? 14 A: Not that it was so much fires, but I 15 know there was discussion on -- on -- on the picnic 16 tables when getting rid of them so maybe to prevent them 17 from being set on fire. 18 Q: Then there's an entry at 7:25, John 19 Carson to Stan Korosec: 20 "Can you see if we can have the 21 helicopter up to keep an eye if we 22 remove the tables." 23 By this time there's a report that there's 24 picnic tables in the sandy parking lot, John Carson to 25 Mark Wright:
1451 "I want you to go and see what there is 2 and report back." 3 Then 7:29: 4 "STAN KOROSEC: Report chopper will be 5 ready in ten (10) minutes." 6 A: Thirty (30) minutes. 7 Q: In thirty (30) minutes, excuse me. 8 And the -- there was a -- ERT teams were sent down along 9 with -- to remove the picnic tables from the sandy 10 parking lot? 11 A: Yeah. Apparently that was a plan. I 12 wasn't involved in the -- in that plan, but between the 13 ERT leaders and I think Inspector Linton. 14 Q: They devised a plan to -- 15 A: They devised a plan to get -- remove 16 the -- remove the picnic tables. 17 Q: So this wasn't part of your -- you 18 didn't have anything to do with the planning, you just 19 assisted -- you were asked to get a -- get the helicopter 20 up and you did? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: Then at Tab 22 of the book, there 23 should be a call at 8:01; is that there? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this is a call between -- a radio
1461 transmission, I think, between yourself and Rob Huntley? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: The computer's on strike. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: This is Region 6 at 8:01 hours. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 12 13 [RH = Sergeant Rob Huntley] 14 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 15 16 SK: Sergeant Korosec. 17 JC: Hi. It's Rob. 18 SK: Hi. How are you? 19 RH: Good. 20 SK: Just to let you know, we're going to get a 21 high-gain antenna for that thing so it'll 22 work better. 23 RH: For the cell phone? 24 SK: What's that? 25 RH: For the cell phone?
1471 SK: Yeah. We're getting one down there. If 2 you can get ahold of IDENT, we're going to 3 have them attend down there and videotape. 4 They're going to remove those picnic 5 tables. You still there? 6 7 Busy signal - call terminates - phone rings 8 9 SK: Hello? 10 RH: Stan? 11 SK: Yeah. 12 RH: Yeah. He's already videotaped. 13 SK: Yeah. We want him to videotape the 14 operation. 15 RH: Yeah. Okay. 16 SK: Is he still there? 17 RH: He's around here. I'm just about to talk 18 with Stan and George. 19 SK: Okay. 20 RH: Inaudible ... and ah ... Inaudible 21 SK: Yeah. You're cutting out on me here. 22 RH: Okay. 23 SK: Can you call your two Outer Drive units to 24 assist in this operation? 25 RH: Yeah. We'll plan it. We'll just all met
1481 with them here. And we'll move that 2 checkpoint out to the corner of East 3 Parkway and Outer Drive, once we're 4 through? 5 SK: Yeah. 6 RH: Okay. 7 SK: Well, you know, not too close. We'll play 8 it by ear. And ah - and the truck is 9 coming down there to load the tables on. 10 Okay? 11 RH: Okay. 12 SK: It'll be at the TOC site. Once it's 13 there, let me know. Okay? 14 RH: Okay. 15 SK: And then can you somehow let your other 16 checkpoints know what's going on? 17 RH: Yeah. 18 SK: Just in person. 19 RH: Yeah. We're doing that right now. 20 SK: Okay. And then just use some sort of 21 signal when they're 10-8 so everybody 22 knows that they're going in to move the 23 tables. 24 RH: Okay. 25 SK: Okay, Rob.
1491 RH: Right on. 2 SK: Okay. I'll wait to hear from you. 3 RH: Right-o. 4 SK: Bye bye. 5 6 End of conversation 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And that was your voice? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, Commissioner, that was at 8:01 14 in the morning of September the 6th. 15 And the other person was Sergeant Rob 16 Huntley? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And was Rob Huntley at the -- the ERT 19 sergeant -- he was an ERT sergeant, I believe? 20 A: Yes, Number 6 District, yes. 21 Q: And he was in -- was he down at the 22 TOC Centre in the MNR parking lot? 23 A: I believe so, yes. 24 Q: Would he be Lima 2 at this point? 25 A: Yes.
1501 Q: I would ask that this be the next 2 exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1309, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1309: Transcript of Region 6, Rob 6 Huntley, Stan Korosec, 7 September 06, 1995, 8:01 hrs, 8 Mobile Command Unit: from 9 OPP Logger tape number 3, 10 Track 1, Disc 2 of 3. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And this is with respect to having 14 the removal of the picnic tables videotaped? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you ever see a videotape of the 17 actual removal? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: And there's a reference on page 2 to 20 -- you ask him about calling the Outer Drive units to 21 assist in this operation. And Outer Drive was on the 22 east side of the Army Camp running up to -- it ended at 23 Port Franks? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then Rob Huntley says:
1511 "Yeah, we'll plan it, we'll just all 2 meet with them here and we'll move that 3 checkpoint out to the corner of East 4 Parkway and Outer Drive once we're 5 through." 6 And I take it that he meant to say Army 7 Camp -- Army Camp Road because East Parkway would have to 8 go through the Park, the Army Camp, Port Franks to get to 9 Outer Drive. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you would agree with me that's 12 probably an error? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And do you know if it was moved, the 15 checkpoint, down towards East Parkway Drive? 16 A: I -- I don't recall. 17 Q: And as I understand it, other than 18 the evening when you drove down to the MNR parking lot of 19 -- the evening of September the 4th in the early morning, 20 that on the 5th and the 6th you didn't go down to the 21 area around the Provincial Park, or the Army Camp, or the 22 MNR parking lot? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: Then you'll find in the blue binder 25 another call. It's a call you made with Rob Shaw at 8:25
1521 in the morning. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 4 5 [SK= Stan Korosec] 6 [RS=Rob Shaw] 7 [IA=Inaudible 8 9 SK Hello Rob 10 RS Hello Stan 11 SK How are you? 12 RS Good how are you. 13 SK Good 14 RS Up bright and early this morning 15 SK Yep, Jacklin 16 RS Yes 17 Sk Jacklin's your man 18 RS Is he? 19 Sk Yea, drove a grizzly 20 RS Hey, perfect 21 SK Says he needs about five minutes of 22 training 23 RS Excellent 24 SK So, ah, you guys may be 10-8 to Meaford 25 tomorrow but wait until you hear from me
1531 RS Okay 2 SK Okie dokie 3 RS Any idea when we'll get the word? 4 Sk Some time today 5 RS Alright 6 Sk The way everything is around here it's 7 last minute 8 RS Everything else is on stand-by, question? 9 Sk Yep 10 RS Ah, those vehicles are ah.. they have an 11 intercom system so you are wearing a set 12 of headphones, the driver and the crew 13 commander 14 SK Right 15 RS They have radio installation trades here. 16 They have their own radio system 17 SK Right 18 RS I have no idea how you are planning in 19 utilizing them or what you want to do with 20 them 21 SK Right 22 RS But, if you want to communicate with each 23 other the best way is for them to have 24 radios and if you want that then I can 25 bring, I can just sign a couple radios out
1541 from here and take them up with me. 2 SK Okay 3 RS Let me know 4 SK Okay, will we be able to have comms with 5 you in there? 6 RS Not on the army radios 7 8 SK No, but I mean if we give you a portable 9 in there like it's all, I don't know metal 10 like these things or something we'll be 11 able to get in touch , you won't be ,like 12 the troops will be behind you when this 13 happens I imagine so. 14 RS Yeah, it won't be that.. as long as it's 15 not a great distance the portables should 16 probably work in them 17 SK Yea 18 RS It's just that there is a lot of metal in 19 them 20 SK No, you'll have all the troops around ya 21 RS Yea 22 Sk Like you'll be busting down the fence 23 whatever we're going to do. 24 RS And if we want to talk to, like I say we 25 wanna talk vehicle to vehicle
1551 SK Yea 2 RS Then it ahh might be an idea just to have 3 them just in case they're needed. 4 SK Okay, we'll talk 5 RS It's just a matter for me signing them out 6 from here in Windsor 7 SK Okay 8 RS I'll sign a couple out and get the radio 9 kits with them 10 SK I might just leave that in your hands if 11 you think that's what we should have then 12 you can do it and we'll go ahead and do it 13 but let me clear that with sitcom 14 RS Okay 15 Sk You don't know what that is but 16 RS I have no idea but it sounds really 17 impressive 18 (laughing) 19 SK Yea, 10-4, okay we'll be in touch 20 RS Okay 21 SK Okay, ERT comm. Out 22 RS Bye. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 25
1561 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And that was your voice on that tape? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And Rob Shaw's voice? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And Rob Shaw was post -- he -- he was 7 in Windsor, with the OPP in Windsor at the time? Or he 8 talks about being in Windsor at least in that tape. 9 A: Yeah, he -- he might have been. He 10 might have been with the Casino Unit at that time. He 11 may have -- 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: He may have been with the Casino 14 Unit, the OPP Casino Unit in Windsor at that time, if... 15 Q: Oh. I believe that is the case. 16 A: Out here from -- in Windsor, yeah. 17 Q: Yeah. And I would ask that this be 18 marked the next exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1310, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1310: Transcript of Region 07, Rob 22 Shaw and Stan Korosec, 23 September 06, 1995, 08:25 24 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, 25 Logger tape number 3, Track
1571 1, Disc 2 of 3. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And the -- Rob Shaw was going to be 5 the commander of the armoured personnel carrier and Wayde 6 Jacklin was going to be the driver; is that -- 7 A: I -- I think that's how it worked. 8 Q: But there's -- at the top of page 2 9 there's a reference -- he's asking you about when you're 10 going to get the word for the training and you say, at 11 the top of the page, the second line, all right, Rob 12 Shaw, then you, the way everything is around here, it's 13 last minute. 14 And what are you referring to there? 15 A: Well, I mean we're -- as this rolls 16 out, we're making adjustments and plans. The picnic 17 tables are being moved and there's a lot -- a lot of 18 things going on and still a lot of planning going on so I 19 -- there wasn't any definite plans for when they would 20 have to go to Meaford, I think it was referred to earlier 21 that they might be going the next day up for training. 22 So, I just -- I -- you know, I wanted to 23 let him know there's no long range plans, but we're going 24 to see how things go. 25 And that's as far as all the information I
1581 got from me -- to me from the inspector. 2 Q: And it sounded a bit critical to me. 3 Were you being critical about things happening at the 4 last minute? 5 A: No. There was lots -- I mean, you 6 can see I'm tasked with a lot of things and -- and you 7 have to react. Do we need this, do we need that? 8 There's contingency planning going on and you know, the 9 night visions, for crying out loud, was -- was enough for 10 me, but you know, do we need this or where -- we're 11 trying to anticipate our -- our needs and our 12 requirements going to be and I don't know if this was 13 ever addressed in the -- in the pre-planning about having 14 this type of vehicle and who can drive it, so, you know, 15 things are -- decisions are -- are being made and I'm 16 tasked to call people and hang on. Hurry up and wait. 17 Q: So you're doing what you're asked to 18 do, instructed to do by your superiors? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: And then on page 3, there's at the 21 top of page 3, the -- you say, talking about the radio 22 communications, in the third line you -- second line, 23 starting at the second line: 24 "You won't be like, the troops will be 25 behind you when this happens I imagine,
1591 so." 2 Then down: 3 "No, we'll have all the troops around 4 you. Then: 5 "Like you'll be busting down the fence 6 whatever we're going to do." 7 And what were you referring to there, Mr. 8 Korosec? 9 A: Well, thinking back to what Inspector 10 Carson wanted this used for is to rescue someone or, you 11 know, rescue someone or remove an injured person from 12 somewhere. If it happened to be in an area like -- like 13 the Park where it was fenced and the Park entrances were 14 blocked, you know, busting down the fence would be the -- 15 the easiest way to get in and out, or -- or in some other 16 area. 17 And there's going to be -- have to be 18 troops, I'm meaning the officers, of course, would have 19 to be there to assist in extricating this person. 20 So more for -- for -- for my 21 understanding, anyway, is more for protection of the 22 officers to get somebody out of the situation. 23 Q: Okay. Then if you -- there's a -- 24 the next conversation that is in the material you have 25 there, this is one (1) that has been identified as being
1601 at 10:09 and I'm going to play this and if you could -- 2 if you recognize any of the voices as you're listening to 3 it, I would be obliged if you could let me know when 4 we're finished, Mr. Korosec. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 7 8 Mobile Command Unit 9 September 6, 1995 10 Tape 3, Track 1, Disc 2 of 3 11 Elapsed Time: 02:23, Real Time: 10:09 12 Conversation between Lima 2 and Archibald and Command 13 Post unknown male 14 15 Archibald: Command Post, Archibald. 16 L2: It's uh, Lima 2 here. 17 A: Yes Lima 2 here! 18 L2: Uh, Lima 2 top page of the photo folder is 19 present at Alpha. 20 A: Yeah, ah, hang on one sec. 21 (??) (indecipherable) 22 (??) (Boys are pretty excited.) 23 (??) (So where'd ya sleep?) 24 (??) (Pretty happy.) 25 CP: Brian?
1611 L2: Yes. 2 CP: How are ya? 3 L2: Good, top page, photo album... 4 (??) (Oh, is that right?) 5 L2: ...present at Alpha 6 (??) (didn't have a camera) 7 CP: I'm sorry... 8 (??) (indecipherable) 9 CP: Oh, top page... 10 L2: Hmm-mmm. 11 A: Yeah. 12 L2: Photo album. 13 A: Yep. 14 L2: Present at Alpha. 15 (??) (Lima One) 16 CP: Okay, ah just hang on. 17 CP: (to someone in background) Where's the uh, 18 your photo album that you hand out this 19 morning? Top page, uh... 20 21 CP: I haven't got mine here, I've left it out 22 in the friggin' barn there. 23 CP: (to someone in background) He's present at 24 Alpha right now. 25 (??) Top page.
1621 CP: Top page, yep. 2 (??) Okay. (indecipherable) 3 CP: Should he be, uh scooped? Do ya know? 4 L2: No no, they're all inside... ATV 5 CP: Oh, I see. Okay, inside the Park. 6 L2: They're all inside... ATV 7 CP: ATV, yes. 8 L2: McGraph 9 CP: Yes. 10 L2: Spencer. 11 CP: Yes. 12 L2: Osbourne. 13 CP: Yes. 14 (??) Command Centre 2410 15 CP: What was the last one? 16 L2: Cossitt 17 CP: Cosa? 18 L2: C-O-S-S-I-T-T 19 CP: Okay. 20 L2: Okay? 21 CP: Yep, thank you. 22 L2: Oh, wait, hang on... Adams. 23 CP: Adams. Okay. 24 L2: Okay? 25 CP: Yep. Bye.
1631 L2: Bye. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: Do you recognize the -- any of the 7 voices on this tape? 8 A: No, I don't, no. 9 Q: And the -- I take it from this 10 conversation that one (1) of the persons identified in 11 the photo folder or photo album was at Checkpoint Alpha? 12 A: That's what it sounds like he was 13 trying relay that information without giving out a name. 14 Q: And the -- 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And the -- if you can turn to page 19 10, excuse me, page 59 of the scribe notes. It's at -- 20 in your tab that's Tab -- 21 A: 17? 22 Q: -- 17. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: This appears to be just after this 25 call.
1641 "10:19 briefing meeting to begin with 2 members. Stan Korosec advises that one 3 of the suspects we are looking for is 4 just inside the fence, David George." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it would appear that someone must 7 have advised you that the -- one (1) of the suspects, 8 David George was just inside the fence? 9 A: Yes. Someone must have told me that. 10 Q: And do you have any recollection of 11 it being Mr. Archibald? Mr. Archibald would appear was 12 the -- on the communi -- the communications -- in the 13 communications part of the trailer? 14 A: I -- I don't think that would have 15 been his -- I know he -- he answered the call originally 16 then someone else was talking and whoever -- 17 Q: You -- 18 A: -- because I don't think he would 19 have -- he would have told me. That wasn't his -- his -- 20 his obvious job to do. He would just stay in that -- in 21 the room there. 22 Q: But at this point -- 23 A: Someone told me anyway. 24 Q: Yeah. And at this point from our -- 25 the earlier call we had heard Rob Huntley was talking
1651 about moving the Checkpoint 'A' down to East Parkway and 2 Army Camp Road. I was just trying to see if they fit 3 together. 4 A: It -- it may. 5 Q: Now was it a folder or an album or 6 what -- what -- do you recall what it was? 7 A: I don't recall what it was. 8 Q: But it was your understanding it was 9 of the suspects that had been identified the day before? 10 A: That's my understanding, yes. 11 Q: And this we believe is at 10:09 in 12 the morning of September the 6th and I would ask that it 13 be the next exhibit? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1311, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1311: Transcript of Mobile Command 17 Unit, September 06, 1995. 18 Tape 3, Track 1, Disc 2 of 3, 19 Elapsed time 02:23, Real 20 Time: 10:09, Conversation 21 between Lima 2 and Archibald 22 and Command Post unknown 23 male. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
1661 Q: Then if I could step back; don't 2 close that. Could you turn back to page 56 at 9:10 3 hours? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: "STAN KOROSEC: Mission accomplice-- 8 accomplished. CBC French carried it 9 live. ERT members are out." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you see it on the CBC? 12 A: No, someone must told me that. 13 Q: Somebody must have told you? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Then the next page, 57, 9:39: 16 "STAN KOROSEC: Any problems with 17 Constable Evans going out to the 18 checkpoints and taking some 19 photographs? John Carson wants 20 Constable Evans to go back up in the 21 helicopter to take some videos." 22 So that there were more videos taken? Do 23 you -- what was your understanding? I believe Constable 24 Evans did go back up in the helicopter? 25 A: He may have. Sir, could we have a
1671 quick minute washroom break? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 3 break; it's time for a lunch break. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, well, then it's even 5 better. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's time 8 for a lunch break. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Fine. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 11 our lunch break now. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thanks. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: By all 14 means. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's fine; that's 16 great. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 18 our lunch break. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 20 adjourned until 1:30. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 12:28 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
1681 resumed, please be seated. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: If I could ask you, Mr. Korosec, to 5 go back to the scribe notes again, please, at Tab 17 of 6 your book and turn to page 51 at the entry at 8:11. 7 And there's an entry: 8 "Stan Korosec advises that backhoe and 9 dump truck in there last night. Mark 10 Gransden pepper sprayed someone, thinks 11 he got him with spray. John Carson 12 asked Kent Skinner if he has the big 13 cannister of pepper spray with him. 14 Stan Korosec advises an extra case of 15 OC Spray. Bill Dennis to get it. Also 16 suggests getting ASP batons if we go in 17 there. John Carson brings up the issue 18 of training for the ASP batons. Stan 19 Korosec advises that Dave Stankevich 20 can do training. John Carson asked 21 Stan Korosec to find out how many we 22 need. Call Stores to get them." 23 And with respect to the pepper spray, it's 24 reported that -- at least recorded in the scribe notes 25 that you thought you -- you -- at least John Carson
1691 wanted to -- wondered if Kent Skinner had the big 2 cannister of pepper spray with him. 3 Do you recall a discussion about pepper 4 spray? 5 A: No, I don't recall -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- a conversation. 8 Q: And does this help you at all? 9 A: No, not really, no. 10 Q: Not really? And what about the ASP 11 batons? It says here that you suggest getting ASP batons 12 if we go in there? 13 A: I -- I don't know if that was a 14 request put through to me from -- from the ERT team 15 leaders about the availability of ASP batons. I know 16 they had been rolled out or distribute -- distributed 17 within the OPP prior to this, and -- and during this time 18 not everybody had them there or not. 19 So I -- I'm not sure if someone would -- 20 requested me, through the channels, to go up -- up to the 21 chain to ask about getting them. 22 Q: And the ASP baton is the collapsible 23 metal baton? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And can be worn on a belt?
1701 A: That's right. 2 Q: And it's a lot smaller than the 3 wooden -- traditional wooden baton? 4 A: Yeah. It's -- it's certainly a lot 5 easier for the officers because they're readily available 6 to them. If you're sitting in a car you -- you can't be 7 wearing it; there was a holder in the car and you had to 8 get out of your car quickly or something and may not be 9 able to -- to have access to it. 10 So it was just -- it was a lot more easily 11 accessible because it was right on your belt. 12 Q: Yeah. And whereas the wooden baton - 13 - it's the wooden baton, the traditional baton that 14 wasn't readily accessible? 15 A: Well, correct. 16 Q: That's what you're referring to? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what about the training? You 19 indicated -- it's reported that you indicated Dave 20 Stankevich can do the training? 21 A: Yes. I knew him to be in one (1) of 22 our in-service training instructors. And I -- I don't 23 recall if he was -- if he was up there, certainly -- if 24 he was up there but that was the name I knew of someone 25 who was qualified to do such training.
1711 Q: And we'll come back to that a little 2 later in the scribe notes. Now you'll find in the 3 material that's in front of you a -- in the blue binder, 4 a conversation -- a radio transmission a 9:59 in the 5 morning of September the 6th. 6 And I'm going to play it. It's in the 7 blue folder, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I'm 9 taking it out. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: We've lost our -- I'll have to -- 15 I'll start it again. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 18 19 Mobile Command Unit 20 September 6, 1995 21 Tape 3, Track 1 22 Elapsed Time: 02:13:02, Real Time: 09:59 23 Conversation involves Archibald, Brian and Command Post 24 unknown male 25
1721 Archibald: Command Post, Archibald. 2 (???) (indecipherable) 3 (???) YeahÓ 4 (???) (indecipherable) 5 Brian: Hello. 6 CP: Yeah, go ahead, Brian. 7 B: Okay. I canĂt hear you too well. 8 CP: I can hear you 10-2. 9 B: Okay. Uh, two with bats, two with poles, 10 all inside the fence, 12 males, one 11 female, one child, nine vehicles, one ATV. 12 CP: Did you say two with, two with bats and 13 two with bows? 14 B: Poles. P-O-L-E-S. 15 CP: Oh. 16 B: Longer bats. 17 CP: Yeah and what it what is it they appear to 18 be up to? 19 B: What I can gather theyĂre just inside the 20 fence, uh, around the fence line there, 21 just as the ah, ah, in response to our 22 people at A. 23 CP: So, theyĂre setting up a camp again right 24 just inside the fence where we took the 25 tables from?
1731 B: Yeah, they, they were uh, moving the other 2 tables that were left inside the fence, 3 they were moving them back around the 4 building. So theyĂre just sort of 5 standing there in case youĂre cominĂ again 6 by the looks of it. 7 CP: Okay, thatĂs fine. 8 B: Okay? Other than that I can get the other 9 car to come back and tell you what heĂs 10 seen. 11 CP: Yeah, okay. Also, if you have floater car 12 could you, ah, have them patrol the beach, 13 west of the Park, and to check to see if 14 thereĂs any access from the beach to East 15 Parkway and also just do some random 16 patrols once in a while try to fold er um 17 show the colors, keep some area people 18 happy? 19 CP: Okay. 20 B: All right? 21 CP: Yep. Okay. 22 B: Thanks. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 25
1741 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And do you, Mr. Korosec, recognize 3 any of the names on the -- this transcript? 4 A: Well Archibald was the CRO. Brian I 5 don't -- I don't know who that is. And who's identified 6 as CP. It sounded to me at the beginning like it was 7 Inspector Linton. Although I -- I can't say for sure. 8 Q: Okay. And were you aware of this 9 information in the morning of September the 6th? 10 Did someone advise you of this? 11 A: I -- I don't recall. 12 Q: I'd ask that be marked the next 13 exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1312, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1312: Transcript of Mobile Command 17 Unit, September 06, 1995. 18 Tape 3, Track 1, Elapsed 19 time: 02:13:02, Real Time: 20 09:59, Conversation involves 21 Archibald, Brian and Command 22 Post, unknown male. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Then if you could go to Tab 23 in the
1751 binder, there's a call at 11:09 hours. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 4 5 [SK = Stan Korosec] 6 [LIMA 2 = LIMA 2] 7 8 LIMA 2: Lima 2. 9 SK: Yeah. Hey, can you find out for me, 10 probably from Alpha there, did they draw 11 their guns today? This morning, when 12 these guys were down with the baseball 13 bats and all that stuff. 14 LIMA 2: Okay. Our people? 15 SK: Yeah. 16 LIMA 2: Okay. I will. I'll get back to you. 17 SK: Okay. I want to confirm that so I can 18 pass it on to the Inspector. 19 LIMA 2: Okay. 20 SK: Okay. 21 LIMA 2: Right-o. 22 SK: Thanks. 23 24 End of conversation 25
1761 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: The -- why were you asking about, do 5 you recall -- firstly, that's your voice? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Do you recall why you were asking if 8 the guns were drawn? 9 A: I -- I believe, it looks like from 10 there, the Inspector asked me to inquire about whether 11 the officers down there -- I take it, it's in relation to 12 the -- to the picnic table removal, whether they had 13 their guns drawn, and he wanted to know that, so I made 14 that -- 15 Q: So you made -- 16 A: -- phone call. I made the call. 17 Q: And Lima 2 is down at the tactical 18 operations centre in the MNR? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And they were the people who ran that 21 operation? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And I would ask that be marked the 24 next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1313, Your Honour.
1771 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1313: Transcript of Region 8, Stan 2 Korosec, Lima 2, September 3 06, 1995, 11:09 hrs, Mobile 4 Command Unit: From OPP Logger 5 tape number 1, Track 1, Disc 6 2 of 3. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And if I could just take you back to 10 the scribe notes again, Tab 17, and at approximately nine 11 (9)... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: At page 58, 9:42, just before 9:55 16 hours: 17 "Stan Korosec advised that there are 18 twelve (12) people heading for the 19 store. John Carson requested that the 20 helicopter attend and take a video. 21 Mark Wright send Constable Evans down 22 to get video. Ed Vervoort will also 23 attend." 24 Ed Vervoort was from MNR? 25 A: I think so, yes.
1781 Q: And I -- does that have any 2 connection with the telephone -- the radio transmission 3 that we just played at P-1312? 4 That's -- P-1312 was in the blue binder, 5 about the poles, you couldn't bring -- 6 A: Oh, the poles and that, yeah. Hang 7 on, let me just look at it again. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: It's a -- sounds like that's in 12 relation to -- those two (2) are interrelated. 13 Q: And you're interpreting that just 14 from the time -- 15 A: I'm looking at the times and what was 16 going on down there. 17 Q: And if I could take you -- you doing 18 -- you don't have any recollection -- 19 A: No, sir. 20 Q: You're simply...If you could turn to 21 Tab 24, please. And this is a call at 11:30. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 24 25 [CP = Command Post]
1791 [LIMA 2 =LIMA 2] 2 [SK = Stan Korosec] 3 4 CP: Command Post, Archiebald. 5 LIMA 2: Yes. Is Sergeant Korosec there, please? 6 CP: Just a moment, please. 7 SK: Sergeant Korosec. 8 LIMA 2: Yes. This is L-2 9 SK: Yeah. 10 LIMA 2: Approximately 10 long guns. No handguns. 11 SK: So the guys had long guns? 12 LIMA 2: They had long guns with them, yeah. 13 SK: Okay. Ten of them? 14 LIMA 2: Approximately 10. 15 SK: So they already had them out? 16 LIMA 2: Pardon? 17 SK: They already had them out at the time? Or 18 did they get them out of the trucks when 19 this kind of happened? 20 LIMA 2: I think they had them out. 21 SK: Okay. And this was when? 22 LIMA 2: When? 23 SK: Yeah. When they were moving the picnic 24 tables around or was this - 25 LIMA 2: Yes.
1801 SK: ? during the removal of tables that we 2 did? 3 LIMA 2: No. During the removal of tables that we 4 did. 5 SK: Oh, okay. 6 LIMA 2: Yes. Nothing later on, no. 7 SK: Okay. So we're moving the tables, our 8 boys are standing - keeping an eye with 9 the long guns. 10 LIMA 2: Yeah. That was protection for our 11 officers. 12 SK: Okay. 13 LIMA 2: Yeah. 14 SK: Okay. Anything like that, where guns are 15 drawn that you hear about, give us a call 16 here and let us know. 17 LIMA 2: Yeah. I didn't know about it. I didn't 18 know what went - 19 SK: Okay. 20 LIMA 2: - on down there. 21 SK: All right. 22 LIMA 2: Okay. 23 SK: We'll do it at a briefing anyway. 24 LIMA 2: Okay. 25 SK: Thanks very much.
1811 LIMA 2: Right-o. 2 SK: Bye. 3 4 End of conversation 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And that's you -- that's your voice 10 on that -- 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: -- recording? And you were being 13 advised that the officers simply had long guns, no hand 14 guns? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I would ask that be the next 17 exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1314, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1314: Transcript of Region 9, Lima 21 2, Stan Korosec, September 22 06, 1995. 11:30 hrs, Mobile 23 Command Unit: from OPP 24 Logger tape number 3, Track 25 1, Disc 2 of 3.
1821 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: Then the -- do you recall Chief 4 Superintendent Coles and Chief -- and Superintendent 5 Parkin coming to the Forest Detachment? 6 A: Not specifically, no. 7 Q: And if you would turn to Tab 63 of 8 the scribe notes at Tab 17 of your book please? Page -- 9 A: 63? 10 A: -- page 63 at Tab 17? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And there's an entry 15:55 hours: 15 "John Carson asked Stan Korosec how the 16 search for the crew of the tanks is 17 coming. Stan Korosec gave him the 18 names of qualified persons. Stan 19 Korosec gives John Carson all the 20 information. Stan Korosec advises John 21 Carson that concrete blocks to be put 22 in place tomorrow at 07:00 hours at 23 shift change. John Carson states that 24 we have to talk about this. John 25 Carson wants to know if we ourselves
1831 will be hampered by these barriers. 2 John Carson wonders from the tactical 3 point of view would we want to come 4 here. Kent Skinner believes he doesn't 5 believe so. Stan Korosec suggests the 6 blocks be dropped at the TOC tomorrow. 7 ERT report to TOC to keep the guys at 8 the checkpoints while the blocks are 9 placed. John Carson states it sounds 10 fine." 11 And the TOC would be -- it says "talk" 12 there, t-a-l-k but it means TOC? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And you're talking about putting the 15 blocks on the beach the next morning? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And then at 16:15 it's determined to 18 have the blocks taken to Pinery Park? Do you see that 19 entry on page -- 20 A: Yes, I see that. 21 Q: Then there's an entry at page 66 at 22 16:44 hours? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "OPP Who car stuck in sand on our 25 side. John Carson advises troops to go
1841 and get them. Have ERT back up four 2 (4) guys in vehicle." 3 And -- and Mark Wright advises: 4 "Car has MNR lights on it. Arrest them 5 for stolen vehicles." 6 And then Mark Wright: 7 "Talked with First Nation person in 8 Ontario marker 062 XCS. Operator 9 states that quote, 'They will settle 10 this with guns'." 11 Do you recall this discussion, the report 12 by Mark Wright? 13 A: I -- I don't recall that part. I 14 recall about the -- the car stuck in the sand. 15 Q: And the instructions that were 16 received by you was that John Carson wanted the -- the 17 people to be arrested in the car? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And would you please turn to Tab 25? 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 22 FOLLOW) 23 24 [SK = Stan Korosec] 25 [LIMA 2 = LIMA 2]
1851 SK: Sergeant Korosec. 2 LIMA 2: Yes. L-2. 3 SK: The Batmobile is stuck in the sand at the 4 Port 5 Frank's beach. 6 LIMA 2: Oh, yeah? 7 SK: On our side, apparently. 8 LIMA 2: Oh. 9 SK: There's 4 guys around. 10 LIMA 2: Yeah. 11 SK: Four guys in it. 12 LIMA 2: Yeah. 13 SK: Get some bodies rolling down there. Get - 14 Trevor Richardson, we're trying to get a 15 hold of him in plain clothes to - 16 LIMA 2: Okay. 17 SK: - to get out. But I think you guys can 18 get there first. 19 LIMA 2: Okay. 20 SK: But don't let them see you until we get 21 some bodies - enough bodies down there. 22 Just get them to eyeball them first. 23 LIMA 2: Yeah. 24 SK: Okay? 25 LIMA 2: Okay.
1861 SK: And we can arrest them for possession of 2 stolen property. 3 LIMA 2: Okay. 4 SK: Because there's MNR lights on there. 5 LIMA 2: Okay. 6 SK: So don't do that - try, as much as you 7 can, not to do it over the air. 8 LIMA 2: Okay. 9 SK: And get sufficient bodies to go down 10 there. 11 LIMA 2: Okay. 12 SK: There's 4 of them. Okay? So we want 8 of 13 us. 14 LIMA 2: There's 2 cars leaving from here and maybe 15 they'll pick up some more on the way. 16 SK: Okay. 17 LIMA 2: Okay. 18 SK: All right. Let us know how it's going. 19 And - 20 LIMA 2: Inaudible 21 SK: Okay. And we'll get a - we'll try and get 22 a tow truck rolling somewhere down there. 23 LIMA 2: Okay. 24 SK: As soon as you let us know where it's at. 25 LIMA 2: Okay.
1871 SK: Okay. Bye. 2 LIMA 2: Right. Bye. 3 4 End of conversation 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And that's your voice on the trans -- 10 on the radio transmission? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And that radio transmission is at 13 16:38. And I would ask that be marked the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1315, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1315: Transcript of Region 13, Stan 17 Korosec, Lima 2, September 18 06, 1995, 16:38 hrs, Mobile 19 Command Unit: from OPP Logger 20 tape number 3, Track 1, Disc 21 2 of 3. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And -- and did you make that call in 25 response to the instructions by Inspector Carson; that's
1881 noted at 16:44? 2 A: Yes, that's correct. 3 Q: And the Port Franks Beach was located 4 on the -- can you show, using your pointer at Exhibit P- 5 40 is on the map -- up on the screen I mean. It's map of 6 the military base and the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 7 A: It is -- I think it -- 8 Q: Outer Drive is the dotted -- Outer 9 Drive is now where the dotted line is. 10 A: Okay. Here? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Okay. So -- well the Port Franks 13 Beach would -- would start here to the east of -- 14 Q: Outer Drive and run -- there are 15 cottages I understand to the west of Outer Drive in the 16 area -- the border of the -- 17 A: Yeah. Outer Drive curves -- curves 18 around down here. I don't think it's -- not shown on 19 here. 20 Q: It curves around and there are 21 cottages in this area? 22 A: I don't believe there's any -- this 23 would be the -- well -- 24 Q: There's this area in here. You may 25 not remember --
1891 A: I -- I -- I don't remember. Outer 2 Drive runs here to curve -- this is all former Army base 3 here on this side. I don't recall any cottages here. I 4 know there's quite a -- quite a number on the east side 5 here. 6 Q: And do you recall where the cottage - 7 - where the car was? Do you have any idea where the car 8 was today that you're referring to here? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Actually it's my belief there are 11 cottages in this area onto the west of the little square 12 out of P-40. But you can't remember that? 13 A: There may be. 14 Q: Anyway the -- you then called for a 15 tow truck and there's an entry at -- at Tab 26, there's a 16 call at 16:48 hours. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 19 20 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 21 [CLARK = Clark] 22 23 Phone ringing 24 25 SK: [To someone in his location: The guys are
1901 roaring down there. I'll try and get a 2 hold of a tow truck. So if he's ready to 3 rock.] 4 CLARK: Clark. 5 SK: Clarkie. 6 CLARK: Yeah. 7 SK: Stan Korosec from the OPP calling. How 8 are you? 9 CLARK: Yeah. All right. 10 SK: You sound like you ran to the phone. 11 CLARK: Big Stan, I'm a natural born athlete. 12 SK: If required, would you be able to go out 13 and do a tow for us right away? 14 CLARK: Yes, sir. 15 SK: Okay. How quick to get you to Port 16 Frank's? I don't need you right now. 17 I'll know hopefully in a few minutes. 18 CLARK: Yeah. 19 SK: Okay? 20 CLARK: Yeah. 21 SK: I just want to know if you're available. 22 CLARK: Yeah. 23 SK: Stay by your - no, don't stay by your 24 phone. But I could be calling you back in 25 a couple of minutes.
1911 CLARK: Yeah. 2 SK: It's at the Port Frank's beach, just off 3 the Army Camp beach. It's a car we would 4 like towed very, very much. 5 CLARK: Is this something that I could get to? 6 SK: Well, that's what I'm trying to find out 7 right now. 8 CLARK: Yeah. Like, is it on the road part or? 9 SK: I don't know. That's all the information 10 we've got now. We're having cars going 11 right now to go check it out. Okay? 12 CLARK: Yeah. 13 SK: You're familiar with that area down there? 14 CLARK: Well, I know where the Port Frank's ... 15 SK: ... beach is? 16 CLARK: I know where the beach is there at Mud 17 Creek and Rayburn Road. 18 SK: Okay. I'll find out exactly where it is 19 when I get back to you. I'll find out as 20 much as I can where it's at, and how far 21 it's stuck, and whatnot. 22 CLARK: Yeah. 23 SK: Okay? 24 CLARK: Okay. 25 SK: There's no concern about damaging this
1921 vehicle, to tow it out. 2 CLARK: Oh, my goodness. Does that mean they 3 don't have any insurance? 4 SK: Ohhhh. That'd be a good guess. 5 CLARK: Uh-huh. 6 SK: Okay. I just wanted to touch base to see 7 if you were available, and I'll call you 8 back if I need you. Okay? And it could 9 be shortly. 10 CLARK: Yeah. 11 SK: Just so I can prepare you. 12 CLARK: Yeah. Okay. 13 SK: Okay? 14 CLARK: Yeah. 15 SK: Thanks, Clarkie. 16 CLARK: Yeah. Okay. 17 SK: Bye bye. 18 CLARK: Bye. 19 20 End of conversation 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And do you recognize your voice on
1931 that tape? 2 A: Yep. Yes. 3 Q: I would like to mark that the next 4 exhibit. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1316, Your Honour. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1316: Transcript of Region 14, Stan 8 Korosec, Clark, September 06, 9 1995, 16:48 hrs, Mobile 10 Command Unit: from OPP Logger 11 tape number 3, Track 3, Disc 12 2 of 3. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And this is with respect to the car 16 parked down at the beach? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And do you see on page 2: 19 "There's no concern about damaging this 20 vehicle to tow it out." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And why do you say that? 23 A: Were instructions from -- from the 24 inspector where we're going to arrest somebody, you're 25 going to -- you want to do it quickly and -- and get out
1941 of there. 2 So, first of all, the concern was to make 3 sure we have -- if there was four (4) people in the car 4 what was reported to us, we wanted to make sure that we 5 had sufficient officers there to effect a safe -- a safe 6 arrest. 7 And knowing from our past experience down 8 there, we didn't want to draw any more attention to that 9 area or be any more -- or be in that area any longer than 10 we had to. 11 So my concern was -- is not so much -- not 12 the damage of the car -- Clarkie, I knowing him for many 13 years and he's a -- he's a very tow tuck -- tow truck 14 operator, as many area, and you know, they don't want to, 15 when they do any tow for us in the past for whatever it 16 would be, you know, they -- they don't want to be liable 17 for any damages. 18 My concern -- Port Franks beach is -- is 19 very small. It's not a very -- not a very big area 20 before you get to the water. So, my concern was just to 21 get that vehicle out there as quickly as possible, so our 22 officers could get out there as quickly as possible, so 23 there wouldn't be -- so wouldn't draw any attention to 24 that area and have a confrontation on -- on the other 25 side of the former Army Base.
1951 Without trying to tell him too much of 2 that, I just said, you know, just -- we want to get it 3 towed out there as quickly as possible. 4 Certainly, if there was any damage, then 5 the OPP would have been liable for it because we're -- 6 we're telling him we want it towed out of there quickly. 7 And if there was damages -- and it's happened in the past 8 where the OPP would look after any damages or the 9 repairs. 10 Q: So if -- 11 A: But the idea was to get down there 12 with the guys, get in and get out as per what Inspector 13 Carson had told us earlier. 14 Q: And if it was damaged, then you're -- 15 the OPP would look after that, that's -- 16 A: Yes. We haven't -- it's happened in 17 the past. 18 Q: And as it turned out, the -- if you 19 go to page 67 at Tab 17 of the scribe notes, at 16:55 20 there's an entry: 21 "Regarding car in sand. John Carson, 22 we will know if they have a police 23 monitor or not. Stan Korosec advised 24 that they got out of the sand and went 25 back to the Army Camp."
1961 A: Correct. 2 Q: So that they, the car was -- came 3 unstuck and went back to the Army Camp? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: Then... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Please turn to Tab 27, and this is a 10 copy of a transmission with Rob Graham and yourself at 11 17:13 hours on September 6th. It's been marked, 12 Commissioner, as P-1156. 13 And Mark Wright identified himself as 14 having been a person in the background and... 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 17 17:13 exhibit p-1156 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 [CP = Command Post] 21 [RG = Sergeant Rob Graham] 22 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 23 [MW = Sergeant Mark Wright] 24 25 Phone ringing
1971 CP: Command Post, Dave McLean. 2 RG: Hi, Dave. It's Rob Graham. Is Stan Korosec 3 in? 4 CP: Right here. 5 SK: Steady Up. 6 RG: Hey. 7 SK: How are you? 8 RG: Good. 9 SK: You okay? You guys get some sleep? 10 RG: Oh, yeah. I got some sleep. 11 SK: Okay. I need 2 guys. 12 RG: Yeah. 13 SK: Okay. 14 RG: I already assigned them. I got - I assigned 15 Mortimor and Whelan. 16 SK: Okay. In greens? 17 RG: Yeah. 18 SK: Eagle headsets? 19 RG: Yeah. 20 SK: They're going to be doing some - doing an 21 Oscar position. I'll tell you where and when 22 and all that. 23 RG: Yeah. 24 SK: So bring them - or have them come down in 25 greens.
1981 RG: Yeah. 2 SK: Okay-doke? 3 RG: All right. Anything else going on today? 4 SK: We almost had the Batmobile. 5 RG: Almost had it? 6 SK: It was stuck in the sand on the beach near 7 Port Frank's 8 RG: Oh, yeah? 9 MW: [To SK] inaudible 10 SK: [To MW] What's that? 11 MW: [To SK] inaudible 12 SK: He's in the permanent code of silence, so it's 13 okay. 14 RG: Who the fuck's that? 15 SK: Who's that asshole? Mark Wright. 16 RG: Fuck off. Suck my dick. 17 SK: Suck what? 18 ????: Inaudible 19 SK: Yeah. So it was stuck in the sand on the Port 20 Frank's beach there. 21 RG: Oh, yeah. 22 SK: A guy called it in, and then we're roaring 23 troops down there, and then they got out and 24 buggered off back towards the Base side. 25 RG: Oh, yeah.
1991 SK: So we may have to keep an eyeball on that area 2 tonight. 3 RG: Yeah. 4 SK: If they try - 5 RG: They build up that area again? 6 SK: [To someone else: It's in our package.] 7 Anyway, I'll see you at 6:30? 8 RG: Yeah. 9 SK: We got ASP batons in. We'll get trained in 10 them tonight. 11 RG: We've already been trained in them. 12 SK: We have? 13 RG: Last personal safety training, everybody was 14 trained. 15 SK: Oh, did they? 16 RG: They were told they could buy them. 17 SK: Oh, that's right. 18 RG: Yeah. 19 SK: Okay. 20 RG: Inaudible ...got carriers for them? 21 SK: Yeah. The two district guys, I don't know if 22 they've been trained. Oh, that'll save us 23 some time. 24 RG: Okay. 25 SK: So we got those. The Nomex things are coming.
2001 RG: What is that? 2 SK: The Nomex. 3 RG: I don't know what that is. 4 SK: The fireproof stuff we put on when we go in. 5 RG: Oh, all right. 6 SK: Those are all going to be ours. 7 RG: Okay. 8 SK: And I got a fogger pepper-spray from TRU. 9 RG: Okay. 10 SK: For Checkpoint Charlie. 11 RG: Yeah. 12 SK: Tell Gransden. 13 RG: Okay. 14 SK: And ... 15 RG: Have they built up that area again? Or is 16 that - 17 SK: No. 18 RG: No. 19 SK: Not really. 20 RG: Okay. 21 SK: So we have a lot of things to talk about. 22 RG: All right. 23 SK: So make sure everybody's here for 6:30. 24 RG: Yeah. Oh, yeah, they'll be here. 25 SK: Not any later.
2011 RG: Inaudible ... right now. 2 SK: Okay. 3 RG: All right. 4 SK: Okay. So get those guys changed into greens. 5 RG: Yeah. 6 SK: Okay. So [noise like a parrot?] 7 RG: Bye. 8 SK: Bye. 9 10 End of conversation 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And Sergeant Graham was going to be on- 14 duty in the evening? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And the -- you were asking for two (2) 17 officers to be dressed in greens and he said Mortimer and 18 Whelan. And you indicate they're doing an Oscar position and 19 that meant an observation position? 20 A: Correct, yes. 21 Q: And we know from Constable Whelan that 22 they were deployed later on in the evening and what was the 23 purpose? Why did you want people in the Oscar position? 24 It was because of instructions you had 25 received from John Carson?
2021 A: That's correct. Inspector Carson asked 2 me to get a couple of ERT from the night shift to be in that 3 Oscar position or observation position -- position for that 4 evening just to keep an eye on the -- on that area there at 5 the sandy parking lot. 6 Q: And in fact the -- if you turn to page 62 7 of the -- at Tab 17 of your book, page 62, 14:27 hours; this 8 is a meeting with Mark Wright leading the meeting. 9 You indicate: 10 "STAN KOROSEC..." 11 The third paragraph down: 12 "Things aren't too bad today. Chains down 13 from Army Camp Road to Ipperwash Road. ERT 14 given TRU team's large pepper sprayer. 15 John Carson wants a couple of guys to sit 16 on beach with night vision to see if 17 they're coming near property at night." 18 And that was the source of the instructions 19 with respect to the Oscar team? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And then Stan Korosec talked to Sergeant 22 Seltzer regarding training and ASP's. 23 And do you recall talking to Sergeant Seltzer 24 about the training and the ASP's? 25 A: I don't recall specifically talking to
2031 him about it. 2 Q: But when you spoke to Sergeant Graham he 3 indicated that his group had already been trained? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you recall today if the other 6 group -- it would be number 2 ERT or number -- you were 7 getting ASP's for everybody? 8 A: Well, they were coming down and we -- we 9 didn't know who had been trained in them or not and -- and 10 Sergeant Graham reminded me, I guess, that there -- there had 11 already been some training because you had officers in from 12 different districts, the training and the -- and allocation 13 of -- of the ASP's were -- were rolled out at different 14 times. So there would had been trained and some who hadn't. 15 So Sergeant Seltzer I think at the time was -- 16 was another -- I think he might have been the head of the in- 17 service training for Number 1 District. 18 Q: And how long did it normally take to be 19 trained in the use -- use of an ASP baton in the regular 20 training? 21 A: I -- I don't recall. There -- there was 22 really no difference between them and the wooden baton as far 23 as how you would use them to fend off an attack or whatever 24 the tactics for it. It was more in the deployment of them 25 because they were collapsible and -- and how you had to open
2041 them. And again and how you had to close them. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I think that -- so I -- how long the 4 training was that we're suppose to be, I don't recall but I 5 -- I don't think it was too much. 6 Q: And do you recall a discussion with Mark 7 Wright on the afternoon of September 6th about a meeting of 8 citizens? 9 A: No, I don't recall that conversation. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And would you please turn to Tab 28? 14 This is a copy of Exhibit P-1105. It's a conversation 15 between you and Mark Wright. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 18 FOLLOW) 19 20 Region 08 21 Mark Wright - Command Post - Korosec 22 September 6, 1995 17:39 hrs. 23 Chatham Communications Centre Logger Tape #0146 Track 12 24 Disc 12 of 20 25
2051 [CP = Command Post] 2 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 3 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 4 5 MW: Command Post from Sergeant Wright. 6 SK: Yeah Mark. Its Sergeant Korosec. I did 7 make contact with the spouse of that party. 8 She is unaware of any - of that meeting. As 9 far as she knows there isn't one and that 10 other party is away at another meeting. That's 11 not related to this at all. 12 MW: Okay 10-4. I'll go down to where we talked 13 about anyway and wait til 1800 and see what 14 happens. You've advised Inspector Carson I 15 expect. 16 SK: Yeah, that's 10-4 I have. 17 MW: Okay 10-4. Unless if he says otherwise 18 I'll go down there just in case something's 19 going to happen I'll wait til maybe quarter 20 after, something like that. 21 SK: 10-4. I figured that's what you did - or 22 were going to do and I told him that. 23 MW: 10-4. We're clear. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED)
2061 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And this transmission it actually -- 3 we've only captured on this clip the first part of the 4 transmission. There's another part that we played when Mark 5 Wright was here. 6 But does this help you? It appears that you 7 had had some discussion with someone about a meeting and Mark 8 Wright was going down to see about a meeting. Does that 9 refresh your memory? 10 A: It -- it doesn't refresh my memory. It 11 says that I was -- but I don't recall what that was all about 12 -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- from my own memory at all, I'm sorry. 15 Q: And then there's the part of -- that were 16 not -- we haven't played and won't play, but the bottom part 17 of it, there's a communication between Mark Wright and 18 another car about a meeting and where the person down at 19 Checkpoint 'B', which is on East Parkway by Ipperwash Road at 20 that point and time as I understand, and we -- we know that 21 Mark Wright goes to the MNR parking lot. 22 And if you could please turn to Tab 29. This 23 is Exhibit P-1106. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO
2071 FOLLOW) 2 3 September 6, 1995 4 18:20 5 Track # 1820 6 Lima One, Lima Two. 7 8 Lima Two, Lima One ű go. 9 10 Lima One, Lima Two - they've been found they're at Lima Two. 11 I was unaware of what's going on. 12 Sergeant Wright is here now. 13 14 Who's that? 15 16 Lima One, Lima Two are you ten four? 17 18 Negative. You just kind of lost me - try it again. 19 20 Lima One, Lima Two - advise Sgt. Korosec, Sgt. Wright is 21 speaking right now with the person he's looking for. They're 22 presently at Lima Two. 23 24 Ten four. Thanks. 25
2081 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And -- at this point 18:20 Sergeant 5 Wright has asked for a message to be given to you that he's 6 at the MNR parking lot? 7 Presently at Lima 2? Lima 2 was -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- that the MNR -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- parking lot? 12 A: Yes. That's correct. 13 Q: And did you -- do you recall today 14 whether you got that message? 15 A: I don't know. I'm -- I don't know. 16 Q: And then in the blue folder in front of 17 you, there's a -- there are two (2) separate pieces of paper; 18 one (1) at 18:27 and one (1) at 18:30. These are radio 19 transmissions. 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Excuse me. 25
2091 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 2 FOLLOW) 3 4 September 6, 1995 5 18:27 6 Track # 1827 7 8 Lima Two, Checkpoint Alpha. 9 Lima Two, get my number? 10 11 Just heard what sounded like one gunshot and if it was, it's 12 a small calibre. 13 14 Lima Two, ten four. 15 16 Lima Two, 2464. 17 18 2464 Go. 19 20 Alpha heard the same thing. 21 22 Ten four. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 25
2101 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And then I'm going to play the next -- I 3 would ask that transcript be marked the next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: The two (2) as one (1) 5 exhibit? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 18:27 is the next 7 exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1317, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1317: Transcript of September 06, 1995. 11 18:27 hrs, Track number 1827, 12 Lima 2, Check point Alpha. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And then at 18:30... 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 18 FOLLOW) 19 20 September 6, 1995 21 18:30 22 Track # 1830 23 24 Lima Two from Lima One. Reference that last message on the C 25 phone, I've got a direction it came from.
2111 Alpha, Lima Two. 2 3 Lima Two (unclear) crackle (unclear) back of the campground 4 towards north south of Matheson Road. 5 6 Lima One, Lima Two. (Unclear) campgrounds north, towards the 7 Matheson Road area. 8 9 Ten four Lima Two. 10 11 Lima Two. Checkpoint Alpha. 12 13 (Unclear) appears the (unclear) from your end. These are the 14 people (unclear). 15 16 Ten four. IĂll double check that. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And I think where it said LIMA 1, LIMA 2, 22 back, where it says unclear I believe I heard back of 23 campground. 24 Was this information provided to you, do you 25 recall, Sergeant Korosec?
2121 A: I think it was. But I can't say for 2 sure, just from my own recollection. 3 Q: Okay. And I would ask that be marked the 4 next exhibit, P-1818? 5 THE REGISTRAR: 1318, Your Honour. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 1318, excuse me. I'm 7 getting ahead of myself. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1318: Transcript of September 06, 1995, 11 18:30 hrs, Track number 1830, 12 Lima 2 from Lima 1. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Then there's a small group of transcripts 16 that you'll find, starting at -- it has on the front 19 -- 17 1107. It's -- the first one's 1925; it's Exhibit 1107 and 18 it's a message passed on from Lima 2 that: 19 "Would you advise Lima 1 that everything is 20 10-4 here at Lima 2 from Acting Detective 21 Sergeant Wright." 22 And the -- did you get that message that it 23 appears that Sergeant Wright is finished at -- at -- down at 24 Lima 2? 25 A: Yeah. I may have.
2131 Q: And then the next transcript is a 2 transcript, it's P-1110. It's track 1937B; that's -- it's 3 time is 19:37B. And it's from a car 2464, who asks: 4 "Are you aware we're still down at the 5 beach area right adjacent to the Park 6 there?" 7 And the car then goes on: 8 "We've got a gathering of males down here. 9 We're a lone vehicle here. Advise can you 10 get another vehicle down here. 11 10-4. Your Lima 2 advises you can leave. 12 What kind of people are gathering there? 13 We've got four (4) males gathering right 14 down in this area here." 15 And it appears that they're talking about the 16 area at the end of the Army Camp Drive through the sandy 17 parking lot down on the beach. Is that...? 18 A: That's what it sounds like, yes. 19 Q: And there are four (4) people then. 20 These two (2) individuals are identified in P-1111; it's Mr. 21 Spence -- Constable Spencer and Weverink who then in -- at 22 19:39 indicate that they: 23 "We're leaving the beach. We came up to 24 where Alpha Checkpoint was. There were 25 four (4) males outside on the Army Camp
2141 Road. A few with bats. Go ahead." 2 Then 2464 goes on: 3 "It's got to be the comms. When we came up 4 past where Checkpoint 'A' was there were 5 four (4) males on the Army Camp Road; four 6 (4) Natives outside the Provincial Park. 7 Go ahead." 8 And were you advised of that information? 9 A: I believe so. 10 Q: And then at Exhibit P-1113 is a 11 transcript of a call at 19:50 hours between Mark Wright and 12 Sergeant Cousineau, where Mark Wright is trying to get a hold 13 of the -- Inspector Linton. 14 And then there's a call, Exhibit P-1114. It's 15 Mark Wright at 19:51 and he's referring to -- is he -- Wright 16 says he's at Checkpoint Delta. 17 "Okay. 10-4. Somebody take him aside. I 18 think -- I think you've got Sammy Poole 19 down there. Take a quick statement from 20 him and I'm roaring back. Just let me get 21 my Sierra together here at the Command 22 Post. You know what I am after. Just 23 stand by. All right." 24 And Sergeant Wright indicate that referred to 25 the incident with respect to Gerald George's car. Were you
2151 aware of an incident of a car being damaged at -- by the 2 sandy parking lot? 3 A: At some point that evening I was -- I was 4 aware that there was damage to a car. 5 Q: And then there's a communication, it's 6 Exhibit P-1115 and it's a transmission from Mark Wright at 7 19:54 hours. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 10 FOLLOW) 11 12 Radio Transmission: 13 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 14 Date: 06 September 1995 15 Start Time: 19:54 hours 16 Duration of Transmission: One minute and 7 seconds 17 Conversation Involves: Mark Wright 18 Bob Cousineau 19 20 Wright: Command post ah from Sergeant Wright, 21 command post from Sergeant Wright 22 Cousineau: Go ahead Sergeant Wright you got the 23 command post 24 Wright: Yeah we got about ah, up to eight 25 individuals, ah, at the picnic table area, I
2161 assume you know what that is, and they're just 2 about on the edge of the road. They got some 3 bats and stuff in their hands and apparently 4 they've damaged some ah, an individual's 5 vehicle so we got some mischief right now or 6 willful damage. And I talked to them for a 7 while they weren't sure who I was, and it 8 appears to me, it appears to me that they're 9 ah up to something so can you talk to ah your 10 ERT guy in there with the Inspector, I'm on my 11 way back and I'll give you a full rep when I 12 get back but I think we should be moving ah, 13 some people down that way, I think we should 14 be moving some people down that way, I'm about 15 ten away, ten minutes away from the command 16 post 17 Cousineau: That's ten four Lima one is standing right 18 by here heard it all and so did the Inspector 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And do you recall hearing that 24 transmission, Sergeant Korosec, on the evening of September 25 the 6th at approximately 19:54 hours?
2171 A: I -- I may have heard that conversation, 2 yeah. 3 Q: And it indicates -- Mark Wright indicates 4 there are up to eight (8) individuals at the picnic table? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then the -- P-1116 is a conversation 7 between Linton and Wright, and it's at -- there's a 8 reference, I'm not going to play this but it's a long time, 9 it's... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Well it's -- Mark Wright says: 14 "Yeah, I have the identified people. Hey, 15 Arch, all I want to know if they identify 16 the stones coming from the individuals at 17 the curve there, I don't give a shit if 18 they can identify particular people." 19 And do you recall hearing a communication from 20 Sergeant Wright to the checkpoint that all he want to know is 21 if they can identify the stones coming the individuals at the 22 curve. 23 A: No. I don't recall that at all. 24 Q: And it's my understanding -- do you 25 recall when Sergeant Wright gets back to the Command Post?
2181 A: At what time he gets to the Command Post? 2 Q: Yeah, what time he gets to the Command 3 Post? 4 A: From my memory, no, I -- I don't recall. 5 Q: There's a reference in Tab 17, page 73. 6 "19:55, Mark Wright reports via police 7 radio ten (10) Natives with baseball bats 8 near the road who apparently have damaged a 9 private vehicle." 10 And that, presumably, is referring to P-115 11 where it's identified as eight (8) 12 individuals. And then: 13 "20:02, Dale Linton, Mark Wright, Rob 14 Graham and Stan Korosec. 15 Mark Wright reports Natives off Park area 16 with baseball bats. 17 CONSTABLE ZACHER: A personal vehicle 18 being damaged. 19 DALE LINTON: Lets take over 'B' team with 20 helmets and K-9." 21 And do you recall a discussion when -- between 22 yourself, Mark Wright, Rob Graham and Dale Linton when Mark 23 Wright returned to the Command Post? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2191 A: No. I -- I do not recall that 2 specifically, no. 3 Q: Do you recall having a discussion with 4 Mark Wright about keeping back the day shift ERT teams? 5 A: Yeah. At some point that was discussed 6 because I had been -- I had noted at 19:30 I was debriefing 7 the day shift for -- for them to head to back -- to get a 8 bite to eat and go to sleep. 9 And so from -- from this discussion now at -- 10 at 20:02, it was either Mark or myself or Inspector Linton 11 said, better not let these guys -- not get away, we may -- we 12 may have to keep them here -- may have to -- we may need 13 them. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: So there would have been some discussion. 16 Q: What I'm trying to -- the time 19:30, 17 when did you -- do you recall when you made these notes? 18 A: Oh, geez, that night? No. 19 Q: And it might have been later in the 20 evening, because there's... 21 A: It -- it could have been. I mean I -- I 22 have, 19:30 debriefed the day shift, and some other 23 information's coming in so I may have not looked at my watch 24 exactly what time it was, and it could be off. 25 Q: Now, Mark Wright -- and this, for the
2201 benefit of My Friends, said at February -- on February 23rd 2 at page 58: 3 "Well, before I got into the Command Post I 4 spoke to Sergeant Korosec. 5 Q: Yes? 6 A: That's my best recollection; that I 7 know I had a conversation with Korosec and 8 my best recollection is I -- that 9 conversation took place once I got to 10 Forest and he had the day shift. There was 11 going to be the change of the ERT teams 12 because it was that time of day, and I told 13 him to hold back or hold onto that shift; I 14 didn't want him letting them go. 15 Q: And why didn't you want him to let 16 them go? 17 A: Well, because I was -- I was cognizant 18 that we had a potential problem down there. 19 I am very concerned about what was going on 20 and I was harkening back to exactly what, 21 in my mind, what had taken place around 22 seven o'clock that very same day when we 23 had the people with the picnic tables out 24 on the road." 25 And then on page 59, line 15:
2211 "Q: Now Sergeant Korosec was in the -- 2 where was Korosec -- Sergeant Korosec when 3 you arrived? In the garage, outside the 4 garage? 5 Yeah, that's my recollection he was between 6 the Command Post and the garage. 7 Q: And then what happened? 8 A: So he went and told -- he went off to 9 do that and I quickly went into the Command 10 Post to speak to Inspector Linton." 11 And: 12 Q: And did anyone come out -- anyone come 13 into the Command Post at the same time? 14 A: Well, there were a number of people in 15 there but I don't really recall all the 16 people. I know at some point Korosec comes 17 into the Command Post and I really can't 18 recall who else was there." 19 And does that help refresh your memory? 20 A: Well, it -- it does -- it does a bit. If 21 I was -- I briefed the night shift at -- at 18:30, and then 22 once they go out the night shift comes back in for their 23 debriefing. And we normally did that in the -- in the garage 24 there, and depending if it was a nice night or not, the doors 25 may have been opened, I -- I don't remember.
2221 So that would make sense that I'd been in the 2 process of -- of getting ready to debrief them or already 3 having debriefed them on -- on whatever administrative or 4 whatever their needs were going to be for the day. 5 And so I take -- I take no issue with -- with 6 Mark's recollection of that. 7 Q: Now, -- 8 A: It's better than mine. 9 Q: -- do you have any recollection -- 10 specific recollection of the events over the next half hour, 11 with respect to the evening of September the 6th; the next 12 hour? 13 A: Of the next hour? Let me just take a 14 look at my -- what I have notes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Nothing real -- real specific. 19 Q: Okay. And could you read your notes 20 starting at 19:30? 21 A: "Debrief day shift on information 22 received about large amount of activity 23 outside the Provincial Park on the roadway, 24 army camp and East Parkway Drive. 25 Mischief to vehicle report. And Checkpoint
2231 'C' reports from Oscar 1, Whelan, Ternovan. 2 Inspector Linton in the command post. I 3 advised 3 and 6 ERT to prepare for possible 4 CMU function in case they had to react 5 quickly they would be ready. Remain at 6 Forest Detachment for the remainder of the 7 shift." 8 Q: And you remained at Forest Detachment? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And the information from -- reports from 11 Oscar 1, Whelan, and you put Ternovan? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I think it was Mortimer? 14 A: Yeah, I got that wrong. 15 Q: And that comes -- we'll see at about nine 16 o'clock. So what I'm -- all of this is not happening at 9:00 17 -- at 7:30 -- 18 A: No. 19 Q: -- 19 -- 20 A: No, absolutely not. 21 Q: And the -- do you recall getting -- 22 having a discussion about the use of the B team with helmets 23 and K-9, as noted at 20:02? 24 A: I don't know what the reference to the -- 25 to the B team is.
2241 Q: Sergeant Wright thought it was to the 2 officers at Checkpoint 'B'. 3 A: Take over B team with helmets and K-9. I 4 -- that -- that doesn't make sense to me. 5 Q: Okay. And you received a call -- or you 6 had a call with Constable Martin. Please turn to Tab 20 -- 7 Tab 30, and this is a part of Inquiry document 1001992. 8 It's a call at 20:05 hours which would be 9 potentially 20:12 hours. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 12 FOLLOW) 13 14 Archibald Archibald. 15 Martin Bunk how ya doing. 16 Archibald Not worth a shit how you doing? 17 Martin Oh well, I guess a little better. Is, who's 18 the E.R.T. guy in there, that's on the radio. 19 Archibald Ah Rob Graham, but we're really busy at the 20 moment. 21 Martin Well this is what, this is what I had for him. 22 Archibald Okay, hold on. 23 Korosec Go ahead Mumbley. 24 Martin Yeah, Rob. 25 Korosec Stan.
2251 Martin Stan. 2 Korosec Yes. 3 Martin In the gatehouse. 4 Korosec Yeah. 5 Martin Ah it looks like a male Native it's pretty, 6 it's got dark in there now, I can't tell. 7 Korosec Yeah. 8 Martin He's entered that gatehouse, he's closed the 9 door, he's put the blinds down, he's not, I 10 can't see him right now, he's not on screen, 11 but he is in that gatehouse. 12 Korosec Okay 13 Martin He has closed them blind, and periodically 14 he'll peek through there, so I don't know if 15 he's armed or not. 16 Korosec Okay, we weren't gonna go anywhere near that 17 thing. 18 Martin Okay, well just, it's an FYI for your guys. 19 Korosec Okay. 20 Martin In case anybody's. 21 Korosec One, one Native. 22 Martin Well from what I can tell. 23 Korosec Okay. 24 Martin It's one, like it's really hard to tell cause 25 there's no lighting in that, in that gatehouse
2261 from the camera eh. 2 Korosec Yeah, okay. 3 Martin And ah somebody's entered and they're peeking 4 out, now I don't know if they've got weapons 5 in there or not, but that's obviously ah 6 Martin would be good spot to be barricaded if it was. 7 Korosec Okay, you keep updating us, okay. 8 Martin All right. 9 Korosec Okay, thanks. 10 Martin Okay 11 Korosec Bye. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And I would ask that this be marked the 17 next exhibit. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this is 19 part of an exhibit -- 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, but it's -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 22 separate exhibit for it? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, it's part of 24 1001992, but 100992 (sic) is about -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, it's part
2271 of -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- many, many pages. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I've got it 4 marked as part of Exhibit 347. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, but 347 is a very 6 long -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is a long 8 exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1319, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1319: Document Number 1001992. 12 Transcript of 20:05 hrs call, 13 Archibald, Martin, and Korosec. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And you indicate on page 2: 17 "Okay. We weren't going to go anywhere 18 near that thing." 19 And at this point in time of this conversation 20 at either 20:05 or 20:12, that's subject to the seven (7) 21 minute lag, was there any decision had -- had a decision been 22 made about the use of officers down at the Park area? 23 A: No. I was referring to that from our 24 checkpoints and what we've done in the past, we weren't going 25 to go anywhere near that anyway.
2281 No decision that I was aware of and nor as for 2 what happened later in the night, I wasn't privy to any 3 planning or decisions that -- that were made; that this was 4 going to be, if you want to call it, a regular night anyway 5 and that we weren't going to go anywhere near that anyway, 6 and we haven't done in the past. 7 Q: And where he's -- what he's talking about 8 is the kiosk or gatehouse inside the main entrance of -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- the Park. That's correct? 11 A: I -- I believe so, yes. 12 Q: And Mumbley was the nickname for -- 13 A: Chris Martin. 14 Q: -- for Chris Martin? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then in the scribe notes at your 17 Exhibit 7 -- Tab 17, Exhibit 426. 18 A: What page? I'm sorry. 19 Q: At page 73. And up at the top of page 74 20 at 20:14 hours: 21 "Stan Korosec reports one (1) person in 22 kiosk and closed blinds." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I take it that's a report of what you 25 -- that you received from Chris Martin?
2291 A: Part of my job was to relay the 2 information to the Incident Commander, yes. 3 Q: And so that indicates that -- at least 4 the scribe had you doing that at 20:14 hours. And is it fair 5 to say you would have done immediately after you spoke with 6 Chris Martin? 7 A: Pretty well, yes. 8 Q: And it corresponds with the seven (7) 9 minute addition to the times, Commissioner. 10 Now did -- had you heard by this time that 11 there is a report at 20:02: 12 "Trevor Richardson arrived..." 13 This is page 73. 14 "...in the meeting, reporting Brian Byatt 15 reports lots of activity in kiosk area. 16 They took the gas to fill the bus. 17 Mark Wright briefing Inspector Carson on 18 telephone. 19 DALE LINTON: Let's wait and see what 20 Provincial Constable Poole's statement 21 reveals." 22 Brian Byatt, do you know who Brian Byatt was? 23 A: Yeah. He was a -- he was an OPP officer. 24 I -- he was in the Crime Unit or Intelligence Section -- I -- 25 I'm not sure.
2301 Q: And do you recall if he was a day time 2 monitor for the video logs -- the videos -- 3 A: Oh, I don't know. That wasn't -- that 4 wasn't part of my function. 5 Q: Okay. And the -- at some point you call 6 Wade Lacroix. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And why do you call Wade Lacroix? 9 A: Well I -- I recall a discussion about the 10 Crowd Management Unit, having 3 and 6 prepare for possible 11 Crowd Management Unit functions. 12 Inspector Linton, I wanted to inform him 13 because I knew -- because I attended Crowd Management Unit 14 training but I don't recall he had, and I know Mark Wright 15 hadn't, that if a Crowd Management Unit is going to be 16 deployed you need an Incident Commander within the Crowd 17 Management Unit. 18 That's part of the Unit. It's made up of 19 Constables and Sergeants and a trained Incident commander. 20 And the job of that Incident Commander is to -- once they're 21 deployed, he makes the calls as to how the CMU, the 22 formations they take and actions they can take or don't take. 23 So I informed Inspector Linton of that, that, 24 you know, you just can't have a Crowd Management Unit go out 25 there, you need a -- an incident commander; that's the
2311 policy, that's the training. 2 So he was unaware of that, and whether he 3 asked me who was available or whatnot, I don't know, but I 4 told him that Staff Sergeant Lacroix is a trained incident 5 commander for CMU and that, you know, he's only about twenty 6 (20) minutes away, being in the Petrolia area. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And so he -- he instructed me to -- to 9 call him and have him come up to Forest. 10 Q: And so did you call him? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And do you recall what time you called 13 him? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And if you could turn to... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me for a moment, 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 25
2321 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- Commissioner, I 4 wanted to take you to -- it's another one of the loose 5 transcripts, it's 10008. It's Inquiry Document 10008. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: It's 20:13 hours, if you look in the blue 9 folder there, Sergeant Korosec. I mean, Mr. Korosec. Did 10 you find that one; 20:13? It looks a little different than 11 the others. 12 A: Oh, I got it. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Starts with Archibald? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I can't seem to place the tape, but 18 before we go on, 20:13 is probably 20:20. 19 But at 20:21 in the scribe notes at page 74, 20 there's the entry: 21 "Stan Korosec called Wade Lacroix to 22 attend. Advised Mark Wright and Dale 23 Linton." 24 And that's a reference -- is that a reference 25 to your call to Wade Lacroix?
2331 A: Yeah, looks like I -- I told the -- I 2 told the scribe that whoever it was, that I had called Wade 3 and let Mark Wright and Dale Linton know. 4 Q: And this call at 20:13, which I would ask 5 that the transcript be marked the next exhibit... 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-1320, Your Honour. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1320: Document Number 1000008. 9 Transcript of 20:13 hrs call, 10 Archibald, Skinner and Korosec. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: ...is probably at 20:20 hours and it 14 refers to your speaking to Kent Skinner. 15 "ARCHIBALD: Yes. We want the TRU team 16 down here at the command post. 17 SKINNER: The whole team at the command 18 post. 19 ARCHIBALD: Yeah. Hang on, I'll let you 20 talk to Korosec. 21 KOROSEC: Yeah. 22 KENT SKINNER: Yeah. 23 KOROSEC: Ah, Inspector Linton wants the 24 whole down. 25 SKINNER: Whole team where?
2341 STAN KOROSEC: Do -- down here to Forest? 2 SKINNER: The team in Forest. 3 KOROSEC: Yeah, well, to get briefed, to 4 go up there. We've got about twelve (12) 5 of them down at the Army Camp Road where it 6 turns to, ah, East Ipperwash. 7 SKINNER: Yeah. 8 KOROSEC: Or to East Parkway. And they 9 got baseball bats and they -- a car came by 10 and they trashed it as it went by, and 11 there's activity inside the Park there and 12 the bus just -- 13 KOROSEC: No. The dump truck's back, 14 going back into the camp, I just heard. 15 SKINNER: Okay. 16 KOROSEC: The big school bus is down 17 there, too. 18 SKINNER: All right. 19 KOROSEC: And he wants you down. 20 SKINNER: We'll come down to Forest then. 21 KOROSEC: Yeah. 22 SKINNER: Okay. 23 KOROSEC: Okay, we'll see you. 24 SKINNER: Yeah, bye." 25 And do you have a recollection of a --
2351 speaking with Kent Skinner that evening? 2 A: I -- I do recall because it was -- 3 communications were -- were tough. I remember -- I remember 4 talking to Kent at some point. 5 Q: And on Exhibit P-1320 you've got a 6 reference to: 7 "We've got twelve (12) of them down at Army 8 Camp Road where it turns into East 9 Ipperwash." 10 But then you correct it: 11 "East Parkway." 12 And what was the source of that information? 13 A: I'm not sure where -- where I got that 14 from or -- or who told me. There was -- there was a lot of 15 information and that going around in the -- in the Command 16 Post at that time. 17 Q: You've got in Exhibit P-1115 Mark Wright 18 had said there were eight (8) individuals in the parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Up to eight (8)? And where did you get 21 the information that: 22 "They've got baseball bats and a car came 23 by and they trashed it as it went by?" 24 A: Well, I was made aware earlier about the 25 baseball bats and the mischief to a -- to a vehicle, I
2361 believe. 2 Q: And did you make the assumption that the 3 baseball bats and the mischief were one (1) in the same? 4 A: I believe I said they had baseball bats 5 and they trashed a vehicle. I -- it may have been and it may 6 -- may not, like, this information was coming in and I was 7 just trying to give him a sense of -- it wasn't no official 8 briefing but just a sense of it. 9 Where -- where it got the twelve (12), I don't 10 know where I got that information from. 11 Q: And did you know at this time again that 12 it was a stone thrown at the car? 13 A: No, I -- I didn't know at that time. 14 Q: And then there's a radio transmission at 15 20:19 hours. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And it's in the little blue file. 20 A: Yes, I have it. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 25
2371 [SK=Stan Korosec] 2 3 SK: Korosec to 3 and 6 District ERT that just 4 left Forest. 10-19 to Forest okay. 10-19 to 5 Forest. 3 and 6 District teams 10-19 to 6 Forest. 7 8 End of conversation 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And that's your voice? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And you're asking the 3 and 6 District 16 ERT teams to return to Forest? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And the 3 and 6 District ERT teams had 19 been the day shift? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And at 20:19 you're asking them to come 22 back? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And why is that? 25 A: Well, I think that relates to a
2381 conversation with -- with Mark Wright, at whatever point, to 2 have these guys -- have the day shift stick around and some 3 of them may have already left by then. I mean, two (2) teams 4 there, that's, I don't know, twenty (20 -- twenty (2) some 5 people, so some -- some may have already gone to -- to go 6 have some dinner. 7 And so the information about them, holding 8 them back, wasn't relayed to me until -- the debriefing was 9 already done for the day and they -- they were on their way 10 back. So I got on the radio to tell them to 10-19, which 11 means come back to the detachment. 12 Q: And I'd ask that to be the next exhibit. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1321, Your Honour. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1321: Transcript of Region 20, Stan 16 Korosec, September 06, 1995, 17 20:19 hrs Chatham Communications 18 Centre, from OPP Logger tape 19 number 0146, Track 12, Disc 12 of 20 20. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: So for those who weren't there, you were 24 asking them to come back? 25 A: Correct.
2391 Q: Then at Tab 31 of the book in front of 2 you there's a conversation that you're heard on. This is a 3 telephone conversation that you're making. It's Exhibit P- 4 111; its recorded time is 20:25 -- P-1155, excuse me, and 5 it's at 20:25 hours but if you add the seven (7) minutes it 6 would be 20:32. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 9 FOLLOW) 10 11 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 12 [OPTR = Operator] 13 [Pinery = Pinery Meeting Centre] 14 15 [Multiple unidentified voices speaking in the office.] 16 17 Phone ringing 18 19 [Unidentified speaker: When we were waiting to take his 20 statement from him ... inaudible] 21 22 SK: [To someone else: Lacroix is on his way up to 23 do these guys.] 24 OPTR: Operator, Marilyn speaking. 25 SK: Operator, this is Sergeant Stan Korosec with
2401 the Ontario Provincial Police at Forest. I 2 need an emergency cut-in on a phone, please. 3 The area code (519) 243-8131. It's busy and 4 it's imperative that I get a hold of the 5 person on that line. 6 OPTR: Stan Core, right? 7 SK: Pardon me? 8 OPTR: Your last name is Stan Core? 9 SK: Korosec. K-o-r-o-s-e-c. 10 11 [Unidentified speaker: . . . inaudible . . . that has 12 nothing to do with it.] 13 14 [Unidentified speaker: . . . take a step back, okay? 15 inaudible ...] 16 17 OPTR: Thank you. 18 SK: Thank you. 19 OPTR: And who are you trying to reach, sir, please? 20 SK: Kent Skinner. 21 22 [Multiple voices. Unidentified speaker: inaudible . . . 23 these guys?] 24 25 [Unidentified speaker: Yeah.]
2411 OPTR: Thank you. 2 3 [Unidentified speaker: inaudible ... our objective before 4 this build up came along ...] 5 6 [Unidentified speaker: Now we've had this shit ... 7 inaudible.] 8 9 [Unidentified speaker: ... start making arrests.] 10 11 [Unidentified speaker: What happens if we just draw back 12 here, okay? And evacuate to ... inaudible] 13 14 [Unidentified speaker: Absolutely not.] 15 16 [Unidentified speaker: We can do that, too.] 17 18 [Unidentified speaker: Okay.] 19 20 [Unidentified speaker: But basically ... inaudible] 21 22 OPTR: I'll be glad to interrupt for you. There is a 23 charge of four dollars and - 24 SK: That's okay. Don't worry about that. 25 OPTR: - twenty ... Thank you. One moment.
2421 SK: [To someone else: There's a charge.] 2 3 [Unidentified speaker: If you're right, then the sniper's in 4 here and there's a ... inaudible ... and shots fired, 5 somebody's ... inaudible.] 6 7 [Multiple voices] 8 9 [Unidentified speaker: ... I don't know what's happened ... 10 inaudible . . . TRU because of this action.] 11 12 [Unidentified speaker: Well, but I'm suggesting to you, if 13 you believe that kind of threat is real, then my 14 understanding is we shouldn't be putting anybody in there 15 until we have better information or are better prepared to 16 handle that ... inaudible . . . Okay?] 17 18 OPTR: Hello? 19 SK: Yes? 20 OPTR: They hung up on it. I didn't interrupt on it. 21 Just a minute. 22 SK: Okay. 23 24 [Multiple unidentified people speaking in the office.] 25
2431 [Unidentified voice: ... get some information and if all 2 they do is end up on the . . . inaudible . . . I suggest . . 3 . inaudible] 4 5 [Unidentified voice: 24-40, Lima 1. 24-40, Lima 1.] 6 7 OPTR: That's long-distance, right? 8 SK: Yes. 9 OPTR: Right. Thank you. 10 11 [Unidentified speaker: ... Both sides of the fence are down 12 there now.] 13 14 [Unidentified speaker: Yeah. Where? Down in here?] 15 16 [Unidentified speaker: But what about evacuating these 17 people before - ] 18 19 [Unidentified speaker: That's what I'm talking about.] 20 21 [Unidentified speaker: We're not trained in evacuation.] 22 23 SK: [Wade Lacroix is on his way up.] 24 25
2441 [Unidentified speaker: You've only got one house here?] 2 3 [SK: Well, there's ...] 4 5 [Multiple unidentified voices] 6 7 [Unidentified speaker: There's a house here and right behind 8 there's a house here. I would suggest you ... inaudible] 9 10 [Unidentified speaker: They're pretty much all like that 11 along there.] 12 13 [Unidentified speaker: Double, double-blind, yeah.] 14 15 [Unidentified speaker: Unless you have some particular 16 business in here, you're going to have to be out, please.] 17 18 [Unidentified speaker: I just want to give a quick message: 19 Don will be at the video post in 10 minutes.] 20 21 [Unidentified speaker: Okay. Thank you.] 22 23 [SK: You want TRU, get it up, stay at Pinery.] 24 25 Phone rings
2451 [SK: Okay. I've got to - ] 2 3 Pinery: Pinery Meeting Centre. 4 SK: Hi. I'd like to talk to Kent Skinner, please. 5 Pinery: They're all gone. 6 SK: They're all gone? 7 Pinery: Yeah. 8 SK: They're pulled out of the parking lot? 9 Pinery: Yeah. I think they went up to - [to someone 10 else: Did they go up to Ipperwash, all the 11 policemen, do you know?]. I think that's 12 where they went. 13 SK: Okay. 14 Pinery: Okay? 15 SK: Thanks. 16 Pinery: All right. 17 18 End of conversation 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And that's your voice on the radio 24 transmission? 25 A: Yes.
2461 Q: And in the background the voices include 2 Inspector Linton and John Carson? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And you were calling to Kent Skinner to 5 do what? 6 A: I believe we wanted only -- not the whole 7 team down. I was instructed to get a hold of him because for 8 some reason the whole team come down; maybe just Kent Skinner 9 to come down. 10 So I was told to get a hold of him and not 11 have the whole team come down, just Kent. 12 Q: And if you look at page 75, Tab 17, 13 Exhibit 426, Inquiry Document 1002419, at the entry at 20:34 14 hours. 15 "TRU has left Pinery. John Carson 16 attempting to call on cell phone." 17 Do you see that entry at page 75? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And would it be fair to say that that's - 20 - you report that they had already left the Pinery? 21 A: Right. 22 Q: And you're reported on this conversation 23 to -- at the beginning, and if you look at the transcript P- 24 1155, you're speaking to someone: 25 "Lacroix is on his way up to do these
2471 guys." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what did you mean by that? 4 A: To lead the Crowd Management Unit. 5 Q: And had a decision been made to deploy 6 the Crowd Management Unit at 20:32? 7 A: Not -- not as far as I was aware, no. 8 Q: And it seems to be more than -- than just 9 to lead the Crowd Management Team, Mr. Korosec. 10 It says: 11 "On its way up to do these guys." 12 A: Yeah. In police terms and in -- in our 13 talking, we're going to do this or do the -- do the Crowd 14 Management thing or -- or if you're going to do someone, you 15 -- you can charge them. There's many different ways that it 16 could be used. 17 If it -- if it's interpreted that to do 18 something down at the Park, you know, but I said he's going 19 out the way to do those guys. 20 These guys were the guys -- I was at the 21 command post and the ERT team guys or the CMU guys were -- 22 were there. 23 But that's as much as I can explain, I think. 24 It was -- it was a snippet of a -- of a conversa -- of a 25 conversation.
2481 Q: And the -- but at this point Wade Lacroix 2 was on his way in. The day shift, which was 3 and 6 -- 3 A: 3 and 6, yes. 4 Q: -- ERT had been asked to stay behind -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you had radioed for those who had 7 left to come back. 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: By this time were you aware that John 10 Carson had returned? We heard his voice in the background, 11 so -- 12 A: Ob -- obviously I was aware, because I 13 hear his voice in the background there, yes. 14 Q: And then if you would please turn to Tab 15 32. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And this is a conversation between you, 20 Bob Cousineau and Rick Zupancic. And Rick Zupancic was part 21 of the TRU team? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it's the time, Commissioner, is at 24 20:29 hours, but if you add the seven (7) minutes, it would 25 be 20:35.
2491 And perhaps I'll play this one and then we 2 could have the afternoon break. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 5 FOLLOW) 6 7 [RZ = Constable Rick Zupancic] 8 [BC = Sergeant Bob Cousineau] 9 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 10 11 RZ: Zupancic here. 12 BC: Hi, Rick. 13 RZ: Yeah? 14 BC: It's Bob Cousineau at the Command Post. 15 [To someone else: Okay. I got him.] Hold on 16 here. I need to talk to Kent Skinner right 17 now. Have you got him? 18 RZ: No. He's on 670-5686. 19 BC: 670 ... 20 RZ: 5 ... 5686. 21 BC: 86. Okay. Thanks. Wait a minute. Okay. 22 Hold on. 23 SK: It's Stan Korosec. Have you got Comms. 24 with Kent? 25 RZ: I ... just a second. "Kent, can you read
2501 me?" 2 3 Background: radio, multiple voices 4 5 RZ: No, I don't. If I was to - 6 SK: John's talking to him right now on the 7 phone. 8 You guys are not to head down here. 9 RZ: Not to? 10 SK: Yeah. 11 RZ: Okay. 12 SK: You're going to be told to turn around. 13 Stay kitted up at the Pinery. 14 RZ: Okay. We'll do that. 15 SK: Okay? 16 RZ: Yeah. 17 SK: Okay. While I got you on the phone here, 18 can you talk? Are you driving? 19 RZ: Yeah, I'm driving. It's fine. We're at 20 Northville. We're going south of 79 right 21 now. 22 SK: Okay. Well, turn - you'll be turning 23 around and going back. 24 RZ: Yes, we will. 25 SK: [to someone else: Did you get a hold of
2511 Kent? Are they going back?] 2 John Carson: Well, Kent's coming here. The rest of the 3 team's going back. 4 SK: [Okay. Because I've got the other unit 5 here. I'll tell him they're heading back.] 6 RZ: Okay. What you have here is - you have 7 all the men in my convoy? 8 SK: Okay. 9 RZ: Okay. And you have Skinner and Tex that 10 should be nearing Forest right now in their 11 car. 12 SK: Okay. Can you guys get - get yourselves 13 logged on? 14 RZ: Yes. 15 SK: We're trying to get a hold of you. 16 RZ: Yeah. We can log on to a TAC. 17 SK: Yeah. You're still in the District 2, I 18 guess. Get logged on to TAC. 19 RZ: Actually, we're running on our - 20 SK: Oh, you're not logged on anywhere. I'll 21 give you the Comms. guy in a minute here. 22 RZ: Yeah. 23 SK: So you're turning back. 24 RZ: Yeah. 25 SK: Okay. What we got is, we got a big
2521 gathering down at the end of Army Camp Road 2 and East Ipperwash. Baseball bats. They 3 trashed a private vehicle that went by with 4 the bats. We got - how many we got down 5 there, Natives? It's changing all the time. 6 Unknown: ... inaudible ... turn around here, 7 fellows. 8 Unknown: Okay. What's that? 9 Unknown: I'm just telling my guys ... 10 SK: Yeah. They're armed with baseball bats 11 and whatnot at this intersection. We got - 12 people opposed to them are coming down from 13 Kettle Point. 14 RZ: Okay. 15 SK: They're opposed to these guys occupying 16 the provincial park. 17 RZ: Okay. 18 SK: We got a turf battle - not a turf battle 19 but a... 20 RZ: Internal battle. 21 SK: Yeah. 22 RZ: Yeah. 23 SK: That's forming down there. 24 RZ: Okay. 25 SK: We got - we've got the TRU or the ERT
2531 Teams that were - the dayshift are kitting up 2 in their crowd management gear. And Wade 3 Lacroix is coming up as well to handle them. 4 RZ: Okay. 5 SK: We're making a plan. 6 RZ: Okay. 7 8 Background: conversations and radio 9 10 Unknown: ...three vehicles. We're keeping them 11 under observation. One of them's Judas 12 George. 13 SK: [to Unknown: We've got warrants out for 14 him.] 15 Unknown: And they're sitting right there on them. 16 On the opposite side, but - 17 SK: [to Unknown: At Charlie?] 18 Unknown: At Charlie. 19 20 Background: radio and multiple voices 21 22 SK: Yeah. Okay. I'll let you talk to the 23 Comms. - 24 RZ: Okay. 25 SK: My Comm. Advisor, and get you logged on.
2541 RZ: Now, who's this I'm talking to? 2 SK: It's Sergeant Stan Korosec. 3 RZ: Okay, sir. 4 SK: Okay? 5 RZ: Yeah. 6 BC: Hi, Rick. 7 RZ: Hi. 8 BC: Do you have all your vehicle information, 9 badge numbers and all that happy stuff? 10 RZ: Not on me right at the moment. I can get 11 it for you. 12 BC: Okay. That's what I need to log your 13 vehicles on to the system. 14 RZ: Okay. 15 BC: And that way we'll be able to get in touch 16 with you. 17 RZ: Okay. Do you want to do that over the 18 cell phone? 19 BC: Well, we have no other way. Do you - 20 RZ: Okay. 21 BC: Do you have access to a hardline? 22 RZ: Okay. I've got to tell my guys what's 23 going on. Okay? 24 BC: Okay. 25 RZ: Hang on.
2551 2 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And the balance of that call is logging 6 on the individual members of the TRU team onto the TAC, they 7 have to give their badge numbers and -- and be assigned a -- 8 a number; is that correct, Sergeant Korosec? 9 A: Yes, I think so, that's what they were 10 looking for. 11 Q: And -- pardon? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And I would ask that -- I'm not going to 16 play the balance but it's all part of the same conversation. 17 That transcript is the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1322, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1322: Transcript of Region 22, Rick 21 Zupanic, Bob Cousineau, Stan 22 Korosec, September 06, 1995, 23 20:29 hrs, Mobile Command Unit 24 from OPP Logger tape number 4, 25 Track 3, Disc 2 of 3.
2561 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: And the -- on page 2 where it says -- the 4 one (1), two (2), three (3) -- fifth line down: 5 "RZ (RICK ZUPANCIC): Yeah, I'm driving. 6 It's fine. We're at Northville. We're 7 going south." 8 And it says "on" in the transcript but it 9 should be "of" 79 right now. And that's what I heard. 10 And the unknown person where it says: 11 "Did you get a hold of Kent? Are they 12 coming back?" 13 Then it says: 14 "UNKNOWN: Well, Kent's coming here; the 15 rest of the team is going back." 16 Do you recognize that voice; it sounded like 17 John Carson. 18 A: That's -- it sounded like John Carson to 19 me, yes. 20 Q: So it's no longer unknown, it's John 21 Carson. And so what you were asked to do was to try to stop 22 the TRU team from coming and at the point where they -- you 23 spoke to Rick Zupanic they were in Northville? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: So that would be east towards Grand Bend
2571 from Ipperwash Provincial -- from the -- the Army Camp? 2 A: Yes. Yes. 3 Q: And now -- in this conversation at page 4 3, Mr. Korosec, you've got: 5 "They trashed a private vehicle that went 6 by with the bats." 7 And again, where did you get that from? 8 A: I don't know. There was -- as -- as you 9 could hear in this phone call that was going on, there was -- 10 there was a lot going on in -- in the background in the 11 Command Post, and -- and that -- that continued on probably 12 through the night. And I think even heard someone getting 13 someone out of there. 14 So there was lot of information floating 15 around. This certainly wasn't any -- any briefing for -- for 16 Zupancic or anything, I was just trying to give him a lay of 17 what -- what was going on there. 18 I said it's changing all the time and 19 information was being confirmed and others -- and others -- 20 other information wasn't. I certainly wasn't privy to all 21 the information that was coming in as to whatever plans were 22 being made. 23 Q: And then there's a reference to the 24 people opposed to them. 25 "We've got people opposed to them coming
2581 down from Kettle Point." 2 And what was the source of that information? 3 A: I -- I'd heard that somewhere in our -- 4 in our discussions or in what was going on. Again, there was 5 a lot of information going on at the time. It might have 6 been a reference to this Blockade Committee; I don't -- I 7 don't know. I don't know where I got that from. 8 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the things that the 9 -- the -- were -- were you aware that the -- the Ontario 10 Provincial Police, when it put out a press release, indicated 11 that the -- what was happening down in the -- at the sandy 12 parking lot was that a woman's car was trashed with baseball 13 bats? 14 A: Was I aware of the press release? 15 Q: Yeah. Later on the evening, after they - 16 - 17 A: Oh. I don't know. 18 Q: That would perhaps be a good time for the 19 afternoon break. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess for 22 fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 3:05 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 3:20 p.m.
2591 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 2 Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Before the break, Mr. Korosec, I was 6 asking you about Exhibit P-1322, the conversation with Rick 7 Zupanic -- Rick Zupancic, excuse me, and I asked you about 8 the source of the information that people from Kettle Point 9 were -- people close to them are coming down from Kettle 10 Point. 11 And there's a reference in Exhibit 2022 -- 12 excuse me a reference in the scribe note page 74 at 20:22, 13 Exhibit P-426, you'll see that reports of Kettle Point people 14 in pick up who are opposed have arrived. 15 And there was a -- at 20:21 I haven't played 16 it but there's a radio transmission that people in a blue 17 pick have arrived and the officer who made the transmission 18 has made the assumption they are opposed to the -- the -- the 19 occupation. 20 And is this 20:22 the basis of the information 21 about the people arriving who are opposed? 22 A: That -- that's where I probably got it 23 from. Like I said, there was information coming in all the 24 time. 25 Q: And then when -- at 13 -- at Tab 23 of
2601 your book, it's the P-1322... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: There's a reference to -- on page 2 6 you'll see -- 7 A: Where -- where are we at, I'm sorry. 8 Q: It's Tab 32. 9 A: Oh, 32. I thought you said 23. 10 Q: I may have said 22. 11 A: I may have heard 23, okay. Page 2? 12 Q: It says: 13 "SK: Okay while I got you on the phone 14 here, can you talk, are you driving?" 15 And you -- you were talk -- you had called him 16 on the telephone and not by a radio? 17 A: I -- it sounds like it. 18 Q: And the -- in fact the call -- the 19 conversation -- later conversation with Bob Cousineau is to 20 get the members of the TRU team onto the communication 21 system, is that correct? 22 A: Yeah. I think they were on a -- I 23 believe our radio system at that time, if you dialled into a 24 different district and now you moved to another one, you had 25 to -- had to dial into that district and that meant getting
2611 logged on and all that communication stuff I don't 2 understand. 3 But -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- that's what that refers to, I believe. 6 Q: And then in the little book, the little 7 group of transcripts that's in the blue folder, there's one 8 at 20:47 and it's Region 24 and then Region 24(a), they 9 should be together. 10 Do you see that, sir? It says Region 24 on 11 the top. 12 A: Oh, yes, I see that. Yes, I got it here. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 [SK] = Sgt. Stan Korosec] 17 [LC] = London Communication Centre 18 19 LC Ontario Provincial Police 20 SK Hi, Sgt. Stan Korosec from Petrolia OPP 21 LC Ahha 22 Sk We got a major emergency up here at CFB 23 Ipperwash at the Provincial Park I'm looking 24 for some bodies, some uniforms two-man units 25 LC Okay, just hold a second I better put you
2621 over to Sgt. Peer here. 2 3 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 4 [SP = Sgt. Peel] 5 6 SP Sgt. Peer 7 SK Hi, it's Stan Korosec I'm up here at 8 Ipperwash 9 SP Yes Stan 10 SK Authority of John Carson 11 SP Yea 12 SK I need to find out what kind of two-man 13 units you got and how close they can get here 14 to Forest. 15 SP Okay, Strathroy we got one two-officer 16 unit, St. Thomas let me see, St. Thomas we 17 haven't got anybody doubled up yet but we can 18 do that, ahh Tilsonberg we got one doubled up, 19 London hasn't got anybody doubled up yet 20 SK Well okay, how many are working then we 21 can double them up. 22 SP Okay, what we got, we've got one officer 23 at Dutton that we can send, one, two officers 24 from Strathroy, two from St. T, two from 25 London, two from Tilsonbery and there's three
2631 that we can send from Woodstock 2 SK Okay, can, I'll get back to ya I just need 3 to know just in case okay 4 SP Okay, what is your fax number there and 5 I'll send the officers names through to you 6 and everything if you want 7 SK I don't know the fax number..........it's 8 786-2141 9 SP 786 10 SK 2141, 11 SP 2141 12 SK Okay just advise them to get doubled up 13 and prepare to head to Forest Detachment. 14 SP Okay 15 SK Okay 16 SP Alrighty 17 SK Just have them stand-by 18 SP Okay 19 SK If you don't hear from me we don't need 20 them. 21 SP Alrighty then 22 SK I'll try and remember to get back to you 23 SP Okay, thanks Stan 24 SK Bye 25
2641 End of conversation 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And that's your voice on the -- those two 5 (2) -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- transcripts? I'd -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- ask that be the next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-1323, Your Honour. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1323: Transcript of Region 24 and 24A, 13 Stan Korosec and London 14 Communications Centre, September 15 06, 1995, 20:47 hrs, London 16 Communications Centre, Logger 17 tape number 086, Track 6, Disc 6 18 of 20 and Track 2, Disc 2 of 20. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And the -- there's a reference in the 22 scribe note at -- scribe notes at page 76 under 20:49 hours. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2651 Q: "Stan Korosec, five (5) times two (2)" 2 Where the entry reads: 3 "JOHN CARSON: We're using TRU to go in 4 and get an eye. If they're just having 5 campfire, let's leave them. Why go in the 6 dark? 7 STAN KOROSEC: Five (5) by two (2) man blue 8 uniforms en route. Here for checkpoints. 9 JOHN CARSON: Why don't Mark Wright look 10 at video to see if the kiosk is in view? 11 MARK WRIGHT: I see eight (8) people at 12 the corner and at least four (4) with bats 13 or something like that." 14 Now the -- in your conversation we just 15 listened to, it appears that you were still waiting to see, 16 it would be 20:47 plus seven (7) minutes, I guess, and the -- 17 do you have any recollection at this point what the five (5) 18 times two (2) man blue uniforms en route refers to? 19 A: Yeah, we -- we may have called in other 20 officers from our county up at that -- 21 Q: First. 22 A: -- time to assist. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: And then at the request of Inspector 25 Carson, I think, I was -- was checking to see what was
2661 available outside the district. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So there may have been units coming from 4 within the District 1 was Lambton, Essex, Kent. So there may 5 have been some units coming up anyway to check before duty -- 6 Q: And so you were just checking about-- 7 A: -- and to see what else was available in 8 the neighbouring district. In case we needed them. 9 Q: And just before I forget when I referred 10 to Exhibit P-1322, it's been pointed out to me that I said 11 20:29 plus seven (7) was 20:35. It should be 20:36. So I 12 just want to make -- correct that error. 13 Now on page 75 of the scribe notes, there's an 14 entry at 20:41. 15 "STAN KOROSEC: My team is dressed and 16 ready in rear of office." 17 And does that refer to your ERT team Number 18 one? 19 A: No. I -- I don't know why it's referred, 20 why the scribe put my team. That was the Three and Six 21 District ERT team. 22 Q: Oh so Three and District -- Three and Six 23 ERT teams were ready and awaiting for whatever order came. 24 A: Wherever instructions that they were 25 going to be given.
2671 Q: And at this point in time at 20:41 had 2 any instructions been given with respect to those teams? 3 A: Not that I was aware of. 4 Q: And then if I could take -- you -- you've 5 got a small little group of material. It's P-1124 -- it 6 starts with P-1124, it's in the little blue binder there -- 7 little blue folder. 8 A: Yes, I have it. 9 Q: And this is a -- some transmissions 10 between Constable Whelan and with respect to -- they were the 11 Oscar team down near the Provincial Park? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And had you determined where they would 14 go or did someone else determine where they would go? 15 A: I believe Inspector Carson wanted them in 16 -- in an area where they could observe the sandy parking lot 17 area there. 18 Q: And we actually looked some -- a little 19 while ago at the entry about he wanted someone down with 20 night vision glasses? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And the first one is Exhibit 1124 at 23 21:25 hours this transmission. It talks about twelve (12) 24 people around a fire, got a lot of vehicular traffic behind 25 and around towards the beach.
2681 And do you recall whether you were aware of 2 that. The vehicle activity behind me coming in from the back 3 of the Park. 4 A: I believe I overheard this or would have 5 been aware of it anyway. 6 Q: And then the next, it's at 21:26, P-1125, 7 it's a transmission from Lima One to Whelan and they want to 8 know the confirmation of the location of the fire. 9 And Whelan reports it's: 10 "Outside the Park. There's a lot of 11 traffic down there and lots of people 12 down there. There's at least probably 13 another fifteen (15) now. There seems to 14 be more coming in." 15 And were you aware of this transmission? 16 A: I -- I believe so. Can't say for sure. 17 Q: And when he testified, Mr. Whelan 18 indicated that he wasn't as sure whether it was inside or 19 outside of the Park now. And his evidence was that he 20 thought it was outside of the Park but it might very well 21 have been inside the Park. 22 And then at P-1129, there's a transmission 23 between Whelan and Lima 1 and Lima 2 at 21:41 hours and the 24 report is: 25 "Got a lot of traffic down here. Got ATV's
2691 on the beach that are coming up (in 2 audible) position. We've moved back a 3 little bit. Vehicular traffic on the road 4 (inaudible) stop. I don't know people 5 (inaudible) in the general area also. 6 We've got people all over the place. 7 Here we've moved back a little bit. It's 8 getting henky." 9 And then do you recall being advised of that 10 transmission? 11 A: Perhaps probably. 12 Q: And then at P-1130 this is a transmission 13 I'm going to play. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 16 17 Radio Transmission: 18 Chatham Logger 0146 Track 12 19 Date: 06 September 1995 20 Start Time: 21:42 hours 21 Duration of Transmission: One minute and 1second 22 Conversation Involves: Lima One (Korosec) Oscar 1 (Whelan) 23 24 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 25 Lima 1: Go ahead Lima one
2701 Whelan: Can you confirm that the people ah 2 ...I/A... in our area. If we've got people 3 close by I'd like to know 4 Lima 1: Got the dayshift down, coming down right 5 now, ah, in crowd management ah formation, 6 they're driving down right now 7 Whelan: Lima one Oscar one 8 Lima 1: Oscar one go ahead 9 Whelan: Can you confirm the delta people are in 10 the area, we got people in our area all around 11 here it's getting henky and I just want to 12 confirm that ah delta's around here 13 Lima 1: Oscar one from Lima one, if you got to get 14 out of there get out of there ten four 15 Oscar 1: Ten four 16 Lima 1: And advise when you have 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And was that your voice that we heard? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at this point in time at 21:42 you 24 report: 25 "Got the day shift down. Coming down right
2711 now in Crowd Management formation. They're 2 driving down right now." 3 And at this point in time the day shift was 4 driving down to the MNR parking lot? 5 A: Yeah. I believe they were in their 6 vehicles heading down that way. 7 Q: And had a decision been made to deploy 8 them? Did you know if the decision had been made to actually 9 use them by this point? 10 A: No, I'm -- I'm unaware of that. 11 Q: Unaware of whether a decision had -- 12 A: Whether a decision was made. I was not 13 part of that planning process there. 14 Q: But you knew that they were driving down 15 to the MNR parking lot? 16 A: I knew they were on their way down there, 17 yes. 18 Q: And... 19 A: Whether they were going to be deployed or 20 not I -- I don't know. 21 Q: And at 1120 -- Exhibit 1127 which is 22 actually at 21:32 there's a report about the fence being 23 pulled down and vehicles driving right through the -- from 24 the Park and a large number of people removing objects from 25 their trunk.
2721 Were you aware of this transmission at 2 approximately 21:32 on September the 6th? 3 A: I believe so, yes. 4 Q: And the -- were you part of any briefings 5 that were held with Wade Lacroix or the -- the two (2) ERT 6 teams that were going to form the Crowd Management Unit 7 before they left Forest? 8 A: I -- I don't think so. At this time I 9 was back in the -- in the Command Post monitoring the radio 10 transmissions. I don't recall being part of the -- or 11 overhearing any briefings to -- to Wade or to the -- or to 12 the ERT teams there. 13 Q: And the references in your notes to -- 14 Commissioner, it's Exhibit P-1302 Tab 13 page 21 I believe, 15 22. Your references to Whelan and Ternovan are references to 16 Whelan and Mortimer and the transmissions we've just heard 17 from? 18 A: That's correct. And they're a little bit 19 out of order in my notes so... 20 Q: So when did you learn that a decision had 21 been made to deploy the CMU? 22 A: By "deployed" you mean to go -- 23 Q: To use them; send them down the road. 24 A: Send them down the road? When that 25 decision was made I don't know.
2731 Q: And the -- at 21:42 in the transmission 2 that we just heard and Exhibit P-1130: 3 "They're on their way down to the MNR 4 parking lot." 5 And at or about this time we -- we know from 6 John Carson that he was going down to the MNR parking lot and 7 the -- what did you do at or about -- in this period of time 8 21:42 and later? 9 A: From this time on I'm -- I'm basically in 10 the -- in the Command Post in the radio -- in the radio room 11 side. Sergeant Graham was there. I believe at some time, at 12 some point Detective Sergeant Wright was in there as well and 13 that was the remainder of the evening and the rest of that 14 day; basically, that's -- that's where I was the whole time. 15 Q: And there's an entry at Tab 78 in the 16 scribe notes at 21:32 hours: 17 "STAN KOROSEC: Almost all uniforms we 18 have. They will set up a DNA. 19 DALE LINTON: No one is to enter. An 20 order was made to close down the roads." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the Checkpoint 'D' was up by the army 23 -- entrance to the army camp? 24 A: I think so. 25 Q: And -- according to the original plan, it
2741 was. And 'A' -- there are a number of transmissions but by 2 this time 'A' had been moved back to the MNR parking lot. 3 A: Yes. Somebody had made that decision way 4 back. 5 Q: And then at twenty (20)... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Approximately 22:27 hours we have Exhibit 10 P-438. Perhaps we could give the witness a copy of Exhibit 11 P-438. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And Exhibit P-438 is a copy of the logger 16 tape, the advance of the crowd management unit down the road. 17 And did you listen to this taking place in the command post? 18 A: I -- I recall hearing -- hearing radio 19 transmissions from Wade Lacroix, whether it -- because of the 20 communications, the way they were, whether I heard everything 21 I don't know, but I -- I certainly recall hearing -- hearing 22 some of Wade Lacroix. 23 Q: And can you tell us today what you recall 24 hearing from Wade Lacroix and what you recall hearing over 25 the radio?
2751 A: Just -- just from -- from memory, because 2 I was trained in CMU I could hear some of the -- the 3 commands, like "forward." 4 I heard a split command, and then I heard -- 5 I -- I think I heard the conversation about where there was a 6 -- they thought someone was -- was standing there with a gun; 7 maybe that was with the split formation, 'cause a split means 8 you go off to the sides. 9 And I -- and I -- I can't recall if they said 10 it was only a stick or not, or if I recall that from other 11 briefing materials. 12 And then them reforming on the roadway. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I think I also recall hearing -- well, 17 that's from -- from Wade Lacroix, anyway, what I -- what I 18 heard there. 19 Q: Yes. Did you hear any shield chatter? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: Did you hear any gunshots? 22 A: Yes, I believe I did. 23 Q: And what was your reaction when you heard 24 the gunshots? 25 A: It was really hard to describe.
2761 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: It's very hard to describe the feeling at 5 that time. I think from the work we -- was done before and 6 myself, anyway, to try and make sure there was no 7 confrontation or -- or an escalation of the situation, 8 hearing the gunshots was -- was pretty traumatic. 9 Like that incident in the Park that night, 10 it's something that still bothers me to this day. I was 11 concerned about what was going on down there and it's really 12 tough listening to it -- listening to something like that 13 over the radio and subsequently what happened after that. 14 Q: And did you hear over the radio, any 15 references to the arrest of an individual, we know now was 16 Cecil Bernard George and what happened to him during the -- 17 A: I -- I don't recall hearing that on the 18 radio. 19 Q: And there's a transmission. It's in the 20 small book that -- the blue book you've got. It's at 23:11, 21 Region 25. 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 25
2771 [DELTA= Checkpoint 'D'] 2 [LIMA 2 =ERT Sgt at TOC ] 3 [LIMA 1= Stan Korosec at Command Post] 4 5 LIMA 1: Lima 2 Lima 1. Lima 2 Lima 1 6 LIMA 2: Lima 1. Lima 2 go ahead, 7 LIMA 1: Lima 2 do you have comms with Delta? 8 LIMA 2: I believe so. 9 LIMA 2: Delta, Lima 2. 10 DELTA: Delta (inaudible). This is Delta, go 11 ahead. 12 LIMA 2: Lima 1. What's your wishes? 13 LIMA 1: Yes Delta if you're reading or Lima 2 14 Delta. I want you to back off to where the 15 uniforms are. Back off to where the uniforms 16 are. 17 LIMA 2: Delta do you read? Back off to where the 18 uniforms are. 19 DELTA: Lima 1. Delta. Confirmed. 20 LIMA: Yes, Delta from Lima 1. Back off to where 21 your uniforms are at the highway. 10-4. 22 DELTA: Lima 1 from Delta 10-4. 23 24 End of conversation 25
2781 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And I'd ask -- that's your voice on the 5 transcript? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I would ask that be marked -- made the 8 next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1324, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1324: Transcript of Region 25, Stan 12 Korosec, Lima 2, Delta, September 13 06, 1995. 23:11 hrs. Chatham 14 Communications Centre: from OPP 15 Logger tape number 0146, Track 16 12, Disc 12 of 20. 17 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And you were asking the Checkpoint 'D', 21 the Delta checkpoint to move from Army Camp Road out to 22 Highway 21? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And there were uniformed officers at the 25 intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road?
2791 A: Yes, I believe so. 2 Q: And then at 23:27, there's a 3 transmission. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 6 7 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 8 9 SK: Sgt. Korosec to the ..to the uniforms. 10 One two man car to meet at 21 and Army Camp 11 Road to escort a prisoner in the 10-52 12 (ambulance) 13 14 End of conversation 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And 10-52 is an ambulance? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And an ambulance had picked up an injured 22 person at the -- at the intersection of Army Camp -- 23 A: I believe so, yes. 24 Q: -- Road and Highway 21? Can we make that 25 the next exhibit?
2801 THE REGISTRAR: P-1325, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1325: Transcript of Region 26, Stan 4 Korosec, UA, September 06, 1995. 5 23:27 hrs, Chatham Communications 6 Centre, Logger tape number 0146, 7 Track 12, Disc 12 of 20. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And I'm not going to play it, but we've 11 heard some -- a transcript when at -- a transmission -- 12 recording when Mark Wright was here that -- about the looking 13 for a highway on -- an address on Army Camp Road that there 14 was a call that came in from an address on Army Camp Road 15 that turned out to be in the Provincial Park. 16 Do you recall a discussion about trying to 17 find out where the address was? 18 A: Yes, I do recall that. 19 Q: And did you assist -- were you assisting 20 in trying to find out where the location was? 21 A: I -- 22 Q: What can you remember about it? I don't 23 want to go through that transcript, because... 24 A: Yeah, I don't recall if it was myself or 25 Mark Wright or Rob Graham or someone else there that was
2811 trying to -- trying to do that. 2 Q: And at some point, do you recall getting 3 an instruction from Inspector Carson to change the locations 4 of the checkpoints? 5 A: Yes, I do. 6 Q: And the -- I can't find the entry in this 7 scribe note; I know it's here but -- that was after the 8 events in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And the checkpoints were moved farther 11 back, is that correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: It's my understanding -- can you tell us, 18 this is a copy of P-437B and it was marked during the 19 examination of Inspector Carson and it shows the checkpoints; 20 that the checkpoints had been moved. There was one (1), 'D' 21 was initially moved to Highway -- just west of Highway 21 and 22 Army Camp Road and it was eventually moved back to Ravenswood 23 Road -- Ravenswood/Ipperwash Road and Highway 21? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then -- and there was a checkpoint at
2821 the -- at -- it's called 'E' here but at -- as you can see I 2 don't know the crossroad. It's down the road from 3 Ravenswood. If you go south you would hit that Checkpoint 4 'E'? 5 A: Yes, I see that. 6 Q: And then another checkpoint at Ipperwash 7 -- at Ravenswood Line and Army Camp Road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then there was a checkpoint 10 established at Jericho Road and Ravenswood Line, is that...? 11 A: I see that, yes. 12 Q: And does that accord with your 13 recollection? 14 A: Yeah. I -- the exact locations, I -- I 15 don't recall them from memory but I know they were -- they 16 were moved back and -- and that looks familiar to me. 17 Q: And there was a checkpoint at Highway 21 18 in Northville? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And what was the purpose of moving back 21 the checkpoints? 22 A: Inspector Carson advised me to -- to have 23 the units moved back to these -- to these checkpoints and I 24 think it was to -- an attempt probably to -- to de-escalate 25 the situation and -- and create a -- a larger perimeter.
2831 Q: Okay. And at -- please turn to Tab 33 of 2 your book? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: This is a transmission at 23:41. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 9 10 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 11 [COMM = Communications Centre] 12 13 COMM: Hello. 14 SK: Hi. Stan Korosec. 15 COMM: Hi, Stan. 16 SK: Things are bad here. 17 COMM: Yeah. 18 SK: I want you to get on the horn to Forest 19 Detachment people and tell them to report to 20 the office. 21 COMM: Everyone available? 22 SK: Yeah. Except - 23 COMM: Donny's supposed to be heading in and 24 Crane. 25 SK: Okay. Tell them to report to Forest
2841 COMM: Forest? Okay. They were heading 21 and 2 Ipperwash. Okay. 3 SK: Oh, no. We've got people there. 4 COMM: Okay. 5 SK: I think they've got uniforms there. 6 COMM: Okay. 7 SK: Have them here, to Forest 8 COMM: Uh-huh. 9 SK: Don't call Luke George, Vince George, 10 don't call Speedy, and that's it. 11 12 COMM: Okay. 13 SK: Okay? 14 COMM: Okay. Everybody report to Forest? 15 SK: Yeah. 16 [SK: To someone else: Yeah. I was just saying, I'm going 17 to call the extra Forest guys in here.] 18 19 [Unidentified Voice: Why not, eh?] 20 [SK: You heard the threats against Phil, 21 Luke, Vince. Rob Graham got ... 22 inaudible.] 23 24 SK: Yeah. Call those guys in and have them 25 report to Forest.
2851 COMM: Okay. 2 SK: Bye. 3 COMM: Bye bye. 4 5 End of conversation 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And that's your voice on that 11 transmission? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I would ask -- that's at 21 -- 23:41 14 but if we add seven (7) minutes it's 23:48. And the -- at 15 this point in time I would ask that it be marked the next 16 exhibit. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1326, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1326: Transcript of Region 27, Stan 20 Korosec, Comm, September 06, 21 1995, 23:41 hrs, Chatham 22 Communications Centre, Logger 23 tape number 0146, Track 7, Disc 7 24 of 20. 25
2861 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And at that point -- at this point in 3 time there had been a threat received against some of the 4 officers, Phil George, Luke George, Vince George? 5 A: Carmen Bressette who's Speedy. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: And -- and when I said "don't call 8 Speedy' I'm assuming Carmen Bressette too. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And those communications were made and 12 the officers attended? 13 A: I believe so, yes. 14 Q: And then at -- in the scribe note at page 15 81, it's Tab 17 of your book I think, at page 81. You'll see 16 -- excuse me, at page 82, you'll see at 00:27 hours the 17 reference "Armed takedown outside included." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Do you recall that happening? 20 A: I -- I recall it happening, I don't know 21 -- I wasn't part of it. I knew it happened and I was aware 22 of it. Exactly where I was I -- I don't know if I was at the 23 Command Post or outside or at the Detachment side. 24 But I was aware that it had happened somewhere 25 in the vicinity of the Detachment there.
2871 Q: And where -- were you aware -- did people 2 react to this event happening? 3 A: I -- I really don't remember. 4 Q: Then at page 83 there's an entry at 0:38. 5 Excuse -- there's firstly an entry at 0:34. 6 "STAN KOROSEC: I've got the surrounding 7 area -- surrounding are security [I presume 8 that's suppose to be area security]. 9 John Carson to Dale Linton - We have to get 10 the firearms and identify officers." 11 And the "surrounding areas are security" is 12 that with respect to the -- the Detachment or what do you re 13 -- do you have any recollection what that refers to? 14 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. It might have been 15 in relation to the Detachment. 16 Q: Okay. And then -- 17 A: It might have been. 18 Q: -- at 0:38 there's an entry that: 19 "Kent Skinner arrived advising he brought 20 back Wade Lacroix." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do you -- did you speak to Wade 24 Lacroix? 25 A: I don't believe I did.
2881 Q: Or did any of the other team members that 2 came back? 3 A: Oh. I -- I don't know. In the -- in the 4 Command Post in the radio room it was -- it was very, very 5 hectic for many hours after this. 6 Q: And did you have anything to do with the 7 arrests at Strathroy Hospital? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: Or dispatching officers to the Strathroy 10 Hospital? Mark -- there was -- 11 A: I -- I don't recall if I -- if I did. 12 Q: And then at -- in the little book in 13 front of you, there's a transmission at 1:16 hours you with 14 Bob Slack and Bob Slack is calling in. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO 17 FOLLOW) 18 19 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 20 [BS= Bob Slack] 21 22 SK: Command Post Sgt. Korosec. 23 BS: Is inspector Carson available to speak to 24 me please? Its Bob Slack from the SIU. 25 SK: Okay, um, I don't know where he is right
2891 now. He's extremely busy. He's not in the 2 command post now. Can I get a number to get 3 you back at you Bob? 4 BS: You sure can. 5 SK: Okay 6 BS: I'm at 905 7 SK: 905 8 BS: 575 9 SK: 575 10 BS: 2981 11 SK: 2981 12 BS: Yep 13 SK: Okay Bob, whenever he gets a chance, I 14 can't promise you. Whenever. Okay? 15 BS: Ummmm 16 SK: I know its urgent... 17 BS: Yeah, I understand that, I was just gonna 18 try and find out where your at so I can 19 probably start phoning one of my people to at 20 least head that way. 21 SK: Okay we're at Forest Detachment. 22 BS: Forest...okay. 23 SK: That's where the command post is. Ah, you 24 will be, tell your person, whoever is coming 25 here, they will be met by checkpoints when
2901 they get near Forest Detachment. 2 BS: All right. 3 SK: And please follow the instructions of the 4 officers. 5 BS: No problem. 6 SK: And have some identification. 7 BS: Yep. 8 SK: Okay and I'll have him give you a call 9 back when he can. 10 BS: Good. 11 SK: Okay 12 BS: Okay thanks 13 SK: Bye 14 BS: Right, bye. 15 16 End of conversation 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And that's your voice? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that call was at 1:16 plus seven (7) 24 minutes, it would be approximately 1:23. I'd ask that be the 25 next exhibit?
2911 THE REGISTRAR: P-1327, Your Honour. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1327: Transcript of Region 32, Stan 4 Korosec, Bob Slack, September 07, 5 1995, 01:16 hrs, Mobile 6 Communications Centre, Logger 7 tape number 4, Track 3, Disc 2 of 8 3. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And the -- you're asking him to tell his 12 -- person who's coming to the detachment to -- that they'd be 13 met by checkpoints? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And why was that? 16 A: I think that was part of the -- the 17 security that we had set up at the detachment -- 18 Q: And -- 19 A: -- command post. 20 Q: -- at Region 34 there's a conversation 21 you have with the London Communications Centre at 2:10 hours 22 and I don't know if this is a telephone call or a radio 23 communication. If it's a telephone call we would have to add 24 the seven (7) minutes but... 25
2921 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 [SK] = Sgt. Stan Korosec] 4 [LC] = London Communication Centre 5 6 SK Sgt. Korosec 7 LC Hello Command Post this is London Comm 8 Centre 9 SK Yes London 10 LC Got some information my Sergeant wanted me 11 to pass along 12 SK Okay 13 LC Detective Inspector Goodall 14 SK Yes 15 LC Is attending now in our district 16 SK Okay 17 LC His unit number is 31-887 18 SK Okay 19 LC His cell phone number is 670-6749 20 SK 670-6749 21 LC He had me pass a message to Cst. Speck at 22 Strathroy hospital to phone him on his car 23 phone 24 SK Okay 25 LC So he's briefing him now as he drives to
2931 the district 2 SK Can he, he's coming to Forest I take it? 3 LC I don't know he didn't indicate to me 4 SK Okay, when you get a chance can you get in 5 touch with him, we have security set up around 6 the detachment, okay and so tell him just to 7 be prepared to meet a check-point near the 8 detachment okay 9 LC Okay 10 SK And these guys are checking every vehicle 11 very very carefully so just make sure 12 LC Are you on simm or are you on tac 13 SK We're on the tac 14 LC Okay, I'll tell him what's going down 15 SK Just tell him to be prepared to be met by 16 checkpoints and identification and the whole 17 ball of wax, okay we're not taking any chances 18 down here 19 LC Gotcha 20 SK k 21 LC I'll look after that 22 SK I'll let, well okay 23 LC Okay, your comm. center also has his phone 24 number in case they need to reach him 25 SK Okay
2941 LC Thank you 2 SK Thanks, bye 3 4 End of conversation 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And -- and that's you on that 10 transmission? 11 A: Yes, it is. 12 Q: And I would like that marked the next 13 exhibit? 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1328, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1328: Transcript of Region 34, Stan 17 Korosec and London Communications 18 Centre, September 07, 1995, 02:10 19 hrs, Mobile Command Unit, Logger 20 tape number 4, Track 1, Disc 2 of 21 3. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And when did you learn that Dudley George 25 had died?
2951 A: I -- I don't recall. 2 Q: You don't recall? And it was early in 3 the morning of September the 7th? 4 A: Yeah. At -- at some time, I -- I just 5 don't know. 6 Q: And when did you learn -- or did you 7 learn of the injuries to Cecil Bernard George? 8 A: Again I -- I don't know. 9 Q: And the -- during the evening or the 10 early morning of September 7th after two o'clock do you 11 recall today what types of things that you were doing? 12 A: Well, in -- in addition to taking these 13 calls and -- and maybe a lot of others and getting additional 14 units out and getting them deployed to where -- where the 15 Inspector wanted them deployed and -- and the detachment 16 security, I believe we had to make -- make some arrangements 17 for additional ERT teams to come down. 18 So, those arrangements had to be made through 19 different Comm Centres and who we were going call and what 20 teams were going to come down, where they were going to 21 report to and -- and I think that -- that took quite a bit of 22 time, too, to arrange that, get these teams activated and to 23 go where they are. 24 I just remember a lot of phone calls, lots of 25 radio transmissions and -- and trying to do that -- that kind
2961 of stuff. 2 Q: Okay. And at Tab 35 of the book in front 3 of you, there's a transmission at 5:58 or a telephone call at 4 5:58 in the morning, so it would probably be 6:05 and it's -- 5 I believe it's yourself and Lyle Johnston. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Do you know who Lyle Johnston is? 8 A: Yeah, he's a -- he's a Walpole Island 9 police -- I don't know if he was the Chief down there at that 10 time or not. But I knew Lyle very well from my -- my days on 11 the -- at Sombra Detachment. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 [SK = Sergeant Stan Korosec] 17 [LJ = Lyle Johnston] 18 19 LJ: Hello. 20 SK: Lyle? 21 LJ: Yeah. 22 SK: Stan. 23 LJ: Stan. 24 SK: What's the bad news? 25 LJ: What's the bad news? Dennis and I - I'm
2971 not sure how much involved, but apparently 2 Bill called me earlier tonight and said Robert 3 was on reserve up there and Perry's supposed 4 to be up there. 5 SK: Right. 6 LJ: They may or may not have been involved in 7 some of that shooting stuff. 8 SK: Right. 9 LJ: But he's going around the reserve - Ed is 10 going around the reserve waking people up. He 11 went to Joey's place and told Joey that there 12 is warriors heading up there from other 13 places, that he's been called. The warriors 14 are on their way up there and they are armed. 15 SK: Told Joey warriors are on their way up. 16 LJ: And they're armed. And that he wanted 17 Joey to call an emergency Council meeting. 18 He's got to do something. 19 SK: Okay. 20 LJ: And Joey says he's got hold of the 21 Councillors to have some kind of a meeting set 22 up first thing this morning. 23 SK: Right. 24 LJ: But to what - what do you think? What 25 should they be considering? Because Tom's
2981 been calling him. I'm not sure what Tom's 2 asking him, whether or not he wants to help 3 put a delegation together to send them in to 4 negotiate or what the deal is. But where 5 would the police stand on this, Stan? 6 SK: Well, certainly we don't want armed 7 warriors coming up here. 8 LJ: Yeah. Well, we've got no control over 9 that part. 10 SK: Yeah. Well, any help we can get from 11 Joey, you know, keep people away from here. 12 Tom Bressette has been here and been talked to 13 by Inspector Carson who is running this thing 14 and everything. Maybe Joey wants to touch 15 base with him. 16 LJ: Do you got a number where he can call 17 Carson? 18 SK: Oh, he's so busy. 19 LJ: Yeah. 20 SK: You know, maybe Joey can get in touch with 21 Tom Bressette. 22 LJ: Yeah, okay. He's been calling - well, 23 Tom's supposed to call him back I guess. 24 SK: Okay. And they can talk. 25 LJ: So right now they don't want any more
2991 people up there than necessary. 2 SK: As far as - 3 LJ: As far as negotiators going inside. The 4 radio says there's someone in there now. Some 5 Councillor, a woman Councillor. 6 SK: Yeah. Bonnie Bressette. 7 LJ: That's who I figured it was. 8 SK: Yeah. Kettle Point has sent somebody up 9 there. Okay? 10 LJ: So she's inside? 11 SK: Yeah. She's been allowed through, and 12 she's in there now. Nobody else we're letting 13 through, unless they get the okay out of here. 14 LJ: And a daughter with her. 15 SK: Yeah. Yeah. 16 LJ: Okay. 17 SK: Okay? 18 LJ: So no - even if the Walpole Council wants 19 to send a delegation up there, they're not 20 going to let them through the line? 21 SK: Well, they'll have to clear it with us, 22 and probably through Tom too. Okay? So have 23 Joey touch base with Tom. Okay? And, yeah, 24 anybody that might help us, sure. But we have 25 to know about it before they go. And, you
3001 know, Tom Bressette should say, "Yeah, we want 2 them there," or "No, we don't." 3 LJ: Yeah. 4 SK: And then Tom knows how to get ahold of us. 5 LJ: Okay. 6 SK: Okay. I'll pass this on. 7 LJ: All right. I'll pass this on to Joey. 8 SK: Okay. 9 LJ: Okay. 10 SK: Bye. 11 12 End of conversation 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And that's your voice on the 18 transmission? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: And I would ask that be made the next 21 exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1329, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1329: Transcript of Region 35, Stan 25 Korosec, Lyle Johnston, September
3011 07, 1995, 5:58 hrs, Mobile 2 Command Unit, from OPP Logger 3 tape number 4, Track 2, Disc 2 of 4 3. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And you were calling -- it would appear 8 that you had called Mr. Johnston before this transmission or 9 this radio -- telephone call? 10 A: Yeah or -- or I got a message to call 11 him. 12 Q: And Joey was -- Joey... 13 A: Joey Gilbert, I believe, was the Chief 14 down at -- 15 Q: He was the Chief? 16 A: -- Walpole Island at that time, yes. 17 Q: And you wanted them to talk to Chief Tom 18 Bressette at Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 19 A: Well not -- not necessarily that -- that 20 I wanted him to. 21 Q: But you -- your reference in here to Tom 22 Bressette is Chief Tom Bressette of -- 23 A: Oh, I'm sorry, yes. 24 Q: -- Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 25 A: Yes.
3021 Q: And I note from your notebook that you 2 went off duty at 14:00 hours, two o'clock? 3 A: Yes, on the 7th. Yes. 4 Q: And did you have anything more to do with 5 this incident in the days following September the 7th? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: And I note in your notebook that on 8 September 13th, 1995 there's a reference with respect -- it's 9 page 23, Commissioner, at Tab 13, Exhibit 1302. 10 You were to provide VIP security for Mr. -- 11 Grand Chief Ovide Mercredi? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And you returned to Forest with respect 14 to that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the notes that are following deal 17 with that security for Grand Chief -- the Grand Chief? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And at the back of your notes there's a - 20 - at page 34, there's a call out sheet, 31 August, 1, 2, 3, 4 21 September. Is that the call out sheet for when your ERT team 22 was called out to come down to Forest on August 31st? 23 24 Is that what that refers to? 25 A: That was our -- our four (4) day stint,
3031 if you will, at -- at Ipperwash. 2 Q: And then at page 33, do you know what the 3 -- this -- this was something done by Sergeant Graham, the 4 call out sheet, the second last call out sheet. 5 There's one -- 6 A: For the 19th. 7 Q: 19, 20, 21, 22 and there's a check beside 8 Rob -- R. A. Graham. 9 A: Yes. I -- I -- well I mean, I think that 10 -- that's my writing but -- I wasn't there at the time but I 11 wanted to record, for administrative purposes, who was out 12 during that time period. I think I was -- I was on -- I back 13 in Petrolia at that time, regular duty. 14 So Sergeant Graham was in charge of the team 15 for those days. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: So I just wanted to check off who would - 18 - who was there during that time period, just so I knew. 19 Q: And then on the -- at page 32, the next 20 page forward in your book, I think. Your book is -- my 21 book's -- 22 A: Great. 23 Q: No, the other way. It says September 12 24 -- 12 September '95 VIP security. Do you see that one? 25 A: No. I'm -- I'm looking at my notes so --
3041 I got it here. Yes. 2 Q: And that relates to the visit by the 3 Grand Chief? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And did you purchase a mug or a t-shirt? 6 A: No, sir. 7 Q: Were you aware that mugs -- that there 8 had been mugs and t-shirts created some time after the events 9 of September the 6th? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And -- but you didn't purchase one? 12 A: No, sir. 13 Q: And during this period of time in 14 September, did you stay at the Pinery Park after the events 15 of September the 6th? 16 A: We were out on the 7th, we had a -- 17 Q: The VIP security, were you at the Pinery 18 Park for that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No? 21 A: No, no. We secured a -- a motel room for 22 Mr. Mercredi. 23 Q: And did you have any involvement in the 24 investigation with respect to the mugs and t-shirts? 25 A: No, sir.
3051 Q: And did you have any knowledge of a -- a 2 beer can at -- being at the Pinery Park with a tape around it 3 -- police tape around it and an arrow? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: Or excuse me, a feather? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did -- did you hear about that-- 8 A: I -- 9 Q: -- beer can? 10 A: I can't recall if I did. I was -- 11 because I was back at the -- I was at the Forest -- the golf 12 course, that's where I stayed at. 13 Q: Now this is after September 7th? 14 A: Oh. Well I -- 15 Q: Well past -- 16 A: Well I wasn't. No. 17 Q: And -- 18 A: Not -- not back there. 19 Q: -- what about later in September, 20 cartoons at the Pinery Park? 21 A: I had no occasion to return back there, 22 so I didn't see any, anyway. 23 Q: And did you have any -- did you work, 24 during the 4th or the 5th or the 6th, with Constable 25 Whitehead or Dyke?
3061 A: Pardon me? 2 Q: Did -- during the 4th, 5th or 6th of 3 September, did you have anything to do with Constables 4 Whitehead and Dyke? 5 A: Dwight, no. 6 Q: No. And did you have anything to do with 7 a subsequent investigation into certain comments they made? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And before we close, did you have 10 anything else you wished to add, Mr. Korosec? 11 A: No, I do not. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I'd like to 13 thank Mr. Korosec for his attendance. My Friends may have 14 some questions. 15 And thank you very much, Mr. Korosec. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 18 much. 19 Can we get an indication of cross-examination, 20 please? 21 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately five 23 (5) minutes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Tuck-Jackson five (5) 25 minutes.
3071 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Perschy...? 2 MS. ANNA PERSCHY: Five (5) to ten (10) 3 minutes, probably less. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Perschy, five (5) to 5 ten (10) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Alexander...? 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Two (2) to three (3) 9 hours. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Alexander, two (2) to 11 three (3) hours on behalf of the Dudley George estate and 12 family group. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 Rosenthal...? 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Approximately two (2) 16 hours. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Rosenthal, two (2) 18 hours. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Ninety (90) minutes to two 21 (2) hours. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Ross, ninety (90) 23 minutes to two (2) hours. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Johnson...? 25 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Half an hour.
3081 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Johnson, a half an 3 hour. 4 MR. JULIAN ROY: Between two (2) and four (4) 5 hours, depending on what other Counsel cover. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What does that 7 total up, Mr. Millar? 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's four hundred and 9 ninety (490) minutes to seven hundred and five (705) minutes, 10 so that's seven (7) to ten (10) hours. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're not 12 going to start now. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, I was wondering if we 14 might start with the short ones. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm not 16 going to start now. I'm going to -- I feel that it's too 17 late and I'm too tired, quite frankly. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's been a 20 long, difficult week. And I think that I'd like Counsel to 21 think about their time estimates over the break and see if we 22 can't try to complete the examination in one (1) full day. 23 But it's just a little over a day the way it 24 is now. And Counsel have been very responsible and the 25 estimates have been a little more generous than the reality,
3091 so perhaps we will be able to finish in a day. 2 I think if we have a break for cross- 3 examination we'll be more effective. And I'm just too tired. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Certainly, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's only 6 4:15 and I know we've been pushing ourselves hard all week, 7 we're starting earlier than most Courts and finishing later 8 than most Courts, and I'm going to adjourn now for the week 9 and we have a week that we're not sitting. 10 Now, you won't be under cross-examination over 11 the break; if we start now, you will be. 12 So we're going to adjourn now until next 13 Tuesday, not this coming week, but the week following, at ten 14 o'clock, 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, that would be April, 16 Tuesday April 18th, at ten o'clock. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 18 we're still on our schedule in terms of how we performed this 19 week, so I want to thank everybody and hope we can keep it 20 up. 21 Have a good break. We'll see you in a week or 22 so. 23 24 (WITNESS RETIRES) 25
3101 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 2 Commissioner. 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 adjourned until Tuesday, April the 18th at 10:00 a.m. 5 6 --- Upon adjourning at 4:18 p.m. 7 8 9 10 11 Certified Correct, 12 13 14 15 16 ____________________ 17 Carol Geehan, Ms. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25