11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 6th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Susan Freeborn )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 10 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 71 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 157 9 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 161 10 11 ROSE MANNING, Sworn: 12 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 175 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 267 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-324 Document 1002556, October 15/'95 4 Transcript re: Anticipated evidence 5 of Robert Isaac, Document date: 1995- 6 01-12. 8 7 P-325 Document 1004590, Transcript re: 8 Anticipated evidence of Robert Isaac, 9 Document date: 1995-09-09 9 10 P-326 Document 2000961, 04 June 1956 Arrest 11 package of Isaac, Robert, Plan - Task 12 Force Project Maple 10 13 P-327 CD of phone call generated from an audio 14 tape September 07/'95 04:20 hours. 34 15 P-328 Xerox copy of audio cassette tape marked 16 07 September, '95 0420 hours, Number 3 17 u/k caller 35 18 P-329 Document 3000150 Hurontario telephones 19 Ltd. Long distance billing log identifying 20 "native use" Document date 1995-08-17 155 21 P-330 Document 1001822 follow-up report from 22 SIU, October 31/'95 submitted by Don 23 Miller re: A meeting October 24/'95, 24 SIU file No. 95-PFD-130 167 25
71 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-331 Document 1001816 SIU follow-up report 4 submitted by Jim Kennedy February 12, 5 '96 SIU File Number 95-PFD-130. 169 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just before we resume 13 with the cross-examination of Mr. Elijah, I wish to 14 tender three (3) documents into evidence, relevant to 15 Robert Isaac. 16 The first document is the SIU state -- 17 interview conducted October 12, 1995. It's entitled 18 "Anticipated Evidence of Robert Isaac" and it's Inquiry 19 Document Number 1002556. That could be the next exhibit 20 please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-324, Your Honour. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 324. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-324: Document 1002556, October 25 15/'95 Transcript re:
91 Anticipated evidence 2 of Robert Isaac, Document 3 date: 1995-01-12. 4 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The second document is 6 a further SIU interview conducted of Mr. Isaac on 7 September 9th, 1997 entitled "Anticipated Evidence of 8 Robert Allan Isaac." It's Inquiry Document Number 9 10044590. 10 That would be the next exhibit please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-325 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P:-325. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-325: Document 1004590, Transcript 15 re: Anticipated evidence of 16 Robert Isaac, Document date: 17 1995-09-09 18 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And the final document 20 is a document which is entitled "Arrest Package," Inquiry 21 Document Number 2000961, if that could be the next 22 exhibit please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-326, Your Honour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-326. 25
101 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-326: Document 2000961, 04 June 2 1956 Arrest package of Isaac, 3 Robert, Plan - Task Force 4 Project Maple 5 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. 9 We now will continue with the cross- 10 examination of Mr. Elijah I believe. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 11 and Karen Jones are still left to cross-examine. Good 12 morning, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 14 Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 16 you anticipate approximately forty-five (45) minutes, is 17 that correct? 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's correct, 19 sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 22 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Resumed: 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 25 Q: Good morning, Mr. Elijah.
111 A: Good morning, sibowee (phonetic). 2 Q: Sir, my name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. 3 I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 4 A: That's good. 5 Q: You told us yesterday, sir, that you 6 spoke with Doug Babbitt late on September the 6th and 7 during the early morning hours of September the 7th, 8 1995, do I have that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you understood Doug Babbitt to be 11 an officer with the OPP? 12 A: Yes, Doug Babbitt, OPP. 13 Q: Yes. And I trust that you are quite 14 certain, sir, as you told us yesterday that there were 15 three (3) calls that you had with Sergeant Babbitt? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And as I understand it, sir, that 18 first call was made by you sometime close to 11:00 p.m.? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the last call that you made was 21 made some time between 12:30 and one o'clock a.m. the 22 following day? 23 A: That could be real close. 24 Q: All right. And -- and I also 25 understand that the second call, obviously was made
121 sometime between, say, eleven o'clock or -- and one 2 o'clock in the morning, but could you tell us again how 3 close the second call was to the first call? 4 A: I'd say about fifteen (15) to twenty 5 (20) minutes because the first call from the Park and the 6 second call was about four (4) to five (5) minutes apart 7 and I called right after that. 8 Q: All right. And I trust, sir, that 9 you are also quite certain that in the first call you had 10 with Officer Babbitt, you demanded to know the name of 11 the officer who was in charge of the Ipperwash operation? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it was during that first call 14 that you first learned of the name, "John Carson?" 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, of course, it was Doug Babbitt 17 who provided you with that name? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 20 sir, from yesterday you're quite certain that in one (1) 21 or more of the calls, Doug Babbitt conveyed to you that 22 John Carson was out in the field cleaning up? 23 A: In the third call. 24 Q: It was the third call? 25 A: Yes.
131 Q: All right. So, in the call that 2 occurred, according to your evidence, sometime between 3 12:30 and a.m., Doug Babbitt conveyed to you that John 4 Carson was in the field cleaning up? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what did you understand that to 7 mean, sir? 8 A: Just getting these men out of there, 9 getting these vehicles, whatever. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Cleaning up. 12 Q: You weren't suggesting that Officer 13 Carson was in any way trying to tamper with the crime 14 scene? 15 A: No, I don't think they could see that 16 much, not at that time of the morning 17 Q: Okay. And I gather, sir, again from 18 your evidence from yesterday that you're quite certain 19 that in one (1) or more of the calls Doug Babbitt 20 conveyed to you that John Carson was taking orders from 21 someone? 22 A: It wasn't the first call, I think it 23 was the second call when I -- I -- he kept asking who I 24 was and then he asked me why and I said I just want to 25 know your name because I'm going to be charging you with
141 murder in the morning. And he just went right -- right 2 away right -- just defending himself saying, No, sir, 3 it's not me you want, it's John Carson. 4 Q: But I understood you to be saying 5 something different and you can correct me if I'm wrong, 6 I understood you to have alleged yesterday that Doug 7 Babbitt told you that John Carson was taking orders from 8 someone? 9 A: Yes, on the third call. 10 Q: On the third call? And that you were 11 led to believe or you inferred, perhaps, is a better way 12 of putting it that that person was Premier Harris? 13 A: That was Your Friend over here that's 14 putting the words in my mouth, I just agreed with him. 15 Q: Well, sir -- 16 A: I never asked who he takes orders 17 from. 18 Q: All right. You just understood that 19 he was taking orders from someone? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And as I also 22 understand your evidence, sir, you are -- you are quite 23 certain that Doug Babbitt told you that the officers 24 involved in the incident were simply shooting over the 25 heads of the occupiers?
151 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now I'm interested, sir, in knowing a 3 little bit more of the tone that Officer Babbitt used 4 with you. 5 A: He was -- he was nice. 6 Q: He was nice? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So he was not dismissive of you, in 9 any way? 10 A: No. Not until the third call. 11 Q: Pardon? 12 A: Not until the third call. 13 Q: All right. All right, that's good 14 because I want to clarify whether there was any change in 15 his tone. 16 A: No, not in the first two (2). 17 Everything was normal right until -- because he kept 18 saying, as far as he knew nobody was hit, shot whatever. 19 Q: I'm sorry, he said what? 20 A: That as far as he knew, nobody was 21 shot. And I kept telling him there was. And then when 22 the murder part came up, he just changed altogether. 23 Q: And tell me, sir, in the third call, 24 which as you've told us took place some time between 25 12:30 and 1:00 a.m., how did that tone or that approach
161 on the part of Doug Babbitt change? 2 A: He started blaming the Indians for 3 shooting first. He hung up, he wouldn't want to -- see, 4 when I got done talking to him -- I talked normal to him 5 like I'm talking to you. 6 Q: You weren't upset in any way? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No. You used a very calm tone? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You didn't use any strong language? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But see someone grabbed the phone 14 from me. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And he was a relation to one (1) of 17 the guys in the Camp and he started talking strong 18 language. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: And I think he got it back and then 21 they just disconnected, hung up. 22 Q: Okay. Is it your evidence, sir, that 23 at no time during these three (3) calls, did Doug Babbitt 24 demonstrate or convey any sympathy towards the situation? 25 A: No.
171 Q: So he never conveyed any sympathy? 2 A: No, I was surprised. 3 Q: Okay. And is it your evidence, sir, 4 that Officer Babbitt never raised the topic of 5 negotiation or opening up a dialogue with the people at 6 the Park? 7 A: No, I don't think so. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 9 Commissioner, I can indicate, sir, that it is my intent 10 now to play for Mr. Elijah a telephone call. And I wish 11 you to know, sir, that the context of how these calls 12 were recorded. 13 I anticipate you're going to hear evidence 14 from Doug Babbitt that he and a colleague by the name of 15 Jacques Arseneau were at the media centre that was posted 16 to the Pinery Park in the early evening of September the 17 6th. 18 And I anticipate, sir, that you're going 19 to hear that while a more highly technological system of 20 a Logger tape recording system was not used, they were 21 recording as many calls as they could as they were coming 22 in with a much lower tech system. They had, in effect, 23 something you'd find at Radio Shack, hooked up to the 24 telephone to record calls. 25 And I anticipate, sir, that you're going
181 to hear that as the evening struck the hour closer to the 2 incident in question and information was becoming 3 apparent in the community that there was something of 4 concern, they were flooded with telephone calls. And 5 they were not able to always change the tape such as to 6 preserve a complete record of all the calls that were 7 coming in. 8 I anticipate, sir, that you're going to 9 hear that the phone call that we're about to hear came in 10 at around 4:10 or 4:20 a.m. on September the 7th, 1995. 11 And I anticipate you're going to hear that 12 the call caused the officer sufficient concern that 13 immediately thereafter he called the command centre. And 14 I'm going to actually play that for you, sir, as well, so 15 that you have some evidentiary foundation for the timing 16 of the first call. 17 And I anticipate you'll hear, sir, from 18 Officer Babbitt that this was the only call of its 19 nature. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The only 21 call that they recorded; is that what you're saying? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, -- and of 23 its nature according to his recollection. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
191 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is our 2 technology up for this? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I never know 'til I 4 press the button. 5 6 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: Now, sir, you're hearing a voice, do 10 you recognize that voice? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: Whose voice is that, sir? 13 A: That's one (1) of the relations to 14 the guys in that Park, that wasn't me. 15 Q: That's not you? 16 A: No, it isn't. It's far from me. 17 Q: You were present for the phone call? 18 A: Not that one. 19 Q: So, what you're saying, sir, is that 20 this isn't the phone call... 21 A: That I had, no. 22 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, because it 23 is relevant to credibility, I would ask that we continue 24 to play the phone call. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long is
201 it? 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: About five (5) 3 minutes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 5 hear the end of it. 6 7 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 10 Q: Now, sir, you've had an opportunity 11 to listen to it. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it certainly will be up to Mr. 14 Commissioner to -- to determine whether, indeed, it -- it 15 is your voice. 16 A: Oh, no problem. 17 Q: But what you're telling me, sir, is 18 that the voice that we're hearing on the tape, you're 19 claiming that's not your voice? 20 A: Absolutely not. 21 Q: Okay. Do you recognize the voice of 22 the other male captured on the tape? 23 A: The OPP? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: No.
211 Q: Do you -- can you tell us whether or 2 not that sounds -- and I appreciate it's a long time ago 3 -- can you tell us, sir, whether or not that sounds like 4 the man that you were speaking to or is it just too long 5 to tell? 6 A: It's probably too long to tell. No, 7 I can't tell. 8 Q: All right. You told us, sir, that in 9 the phone call that you claim occurred between say, 12:30 10 and 1:00 a.m. that Officer Babbitt's tone changed with 11 you? 12 A: I never said that. 13 Q: I thought, sir, that you testified 14 earlier this morning that in the third phone call 15 Officer -- 16 A: In the third phone call -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- I talked normal, he talked normal. 19 When the other guy took the phone -- 20 Q: No, sir, I -- 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: Sir, was your testimony this 23 morning -- 24 A: Back it up. 25 Q: Was your testimony this morning -û
221 A: Back it up. 2 Q: Was your testimony this morning that 3 the tone by Officer Babbitt was very polite in the first 4 two (2) calls but that his tone and approach changed in 5 the third call with you? 6 A: Yeah, oh, with me. Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm not 8 sure that he said that. I -- I'm not sure that that's 9 what he said. It think this is important, better get 10 what he said. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I do want to 12 clarify then -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We better 14 get what he said then, can we get the exact -- 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA-JACKSON: 17 Q: I appreciate, sir, that you're 18 claiming that another man got on the phone and that he 19 was not terribly polite to Officer Babbitt. 20 Is that your evidence? 21 A: That's my evidence. 22 Q: And is it your evidence, sir, that in 23 response to that man that Officer Babbitt was impolite? 24 A: That's the way I took it, yes. 25 Q: All right. So then, you do agree
231 with me that, during the third phone call, Officer 2 Babbitt's tone changed, whether or not the tone was 3 directed to you or to this other person that you claim 4 got on the phone, your evidence is that the officer's 5 tone changed? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 7 Vella? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Unless this was on a 9 speaker phone, I don't see how this witness can testify 10 as to what the tone was of Officer Babbitt on a phone 11 call or at least for that part of the conversation he 12 wasn't party to. 13 He did say he assumed that the tone must 14 have changed. But I don't think one can go any further 15 than that. It's pure speculation. I assume he -- he's 16 basing that on the tone of the other individual's 17 conversation. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You are 19 trying to identify what he said earlier. I mean, my 20 recollection was he said that the tone was polite on all 21 three (3) calls. So I'm not sure. We better find out 22 exactly what he said. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I understood 24 him to say that the tone of the officer changed in the 25 third phone call.
241 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There was a 2 change and that's why I think it's important that we nail 3 down if it's important to you, exactly what -- 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It is important 5 to me, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So then I 7 think we should -- do we have the evidence of what he 8 said earlier? I'll just see what I wrote down. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think part of the 10 confusion and perhaps we should read it back. I thought 11 I -- I heard the witness say that the tone changed and 12 then he went on to expand as to what he meant by that -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and it had to do 15 with the content of the conversation. And that may be 16 the cause of the confusion. I think that both parties 17 are correct but perhaps we could read back. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How can we 19 do that? We haven't had to do this before. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Would you like a 24 playback? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Please? Yeah,
251 let -- let's arrange that please. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: He has to hook it up to 6 the system -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, then 8 let's just stay where we are. Let's just stay where we 9 are. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we 14 take a little longer break and give him a chance to sort 15 this out? Okay. Let's take a little longer break and 16 give him a chance to sort this out. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 18 for ten (10) minutes. 19 20 ---Upon recessing at 9:30 a.m. 21 ---Upon resuming at 9:40 a.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed, please be seated. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
261 I'm surprised that we haven't been called upon to do this 2 earlier in this Inquiry, so we might as well see if we 3 can do it. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well, the 5 technology is marvellous, Mr. Commissioner, and we have 6 queued up that part of Mr. Elijah's testimony in which 7 I'm interested. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? Just 9 wait for Mr. Elijah to sit down. 10 COURT REPORTER (PLAYBACK): 11 "Q: ...involved in the incident were 12 simply shooting over the heads of the 13 occupiers? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now I'm interested, sir, in 16 knowing a little bit more of the tone 17 that Officer Babbitt used with you. 18 A: He was -- he was nice. 19 Q: He was nice? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So he was not dismissive of you, 22 in any way? 23 A: No. Not until the third call. 24 Q: Pardon? 25 A: Not until the third call."
271 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until the 2 third call. 3 COURT REPORTER (PLAYBACK): 4 "Q: All right. All right, that's 5 good because I want to clarify whether 6 there was any change in his tone. 7 A: No, not in the first two (2). 8 Everything was normal right until -- 9 because he kept saying, as far as he 10 knew nobody was hit, shot whatever. 11 Q: I'm sorry, he said what? 12 A: That as far as he knew, nobody was 13 shot. And I kept telling him there 14 was. And then when the murder part 15 came up, he just changed altogether. 16 Q: And tell me, sir, in the third 17 call, which as you've told us took 18 place some time between 12:30 and 1:00 19 a.m., how did that tone or that 20 approach on the part of Doug Babbitt 21 change? 22 A: He started blaming the Indians for 23 shooting first. He hung up, he 24 wouldn't want to -- see, when I got 25 done talking to him -- I talked normal
281 to him like I'm talking to you. 2 Q: You weren't upset in any way? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. You used a very calm tone? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You didn't use any strong 7 language? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: But see someone grabbed the phone 11 from me. 12 Q: Right." 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 enough. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It is enough. 16 Thank you very much, Mr. Reporter -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- for 20 accommodating us. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, Mr. 22 Elijah -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 24 you start, you have to get back to where you were? Are 25 you right back on the beam?
291 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: He's way ahead 2 of us, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An 4 incredible system. Okay. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 7 Q: You'd agree, sir, that unlike your 8 claim just a few minutes ago that Officer Babbitt's tone 9 did not change with you, we've just heard, sir, that you 10 indeed testified this morning that his tone with you 11 changed in the third phone call. 12 You now accept that, that's your claim? 13 A: Not with me. I told you in the third 14 phone call I talked just like I'm talking to you right 15 now. When somebody else took the phone, that's a 16 different story. 17 Q: That's your position? That's how 18 you're going to explain to me the apparent inconsistency? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 20 know what inconsistency you're referring to. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'll -- I'll -- 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you're 23 talking about now. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, that's 25 not fair. That's fine, that's fine.
301 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 3 Q: You'd agree with, sir, that the voice 4 of the caller that we've heard in this phone call has a 5 certain aggressive tone? 6 A: The Native or the -- the police 7 officer? 8 Q: The -- what appears to be the First 9 Nations person who's calling in. 10 A: I would say he was upset. 11 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that he's 12 using strong language? 13 A: I would say that it's not really 14 super strong, but it's right to the punch, yes. 15 Q: Right. And, as I understand your 16 evidence, you're taking the position that you didn't, in 17 any such calls, use that tone or that type of language? 18 A: Well, that's not really that bad. 19 Q: Well, -- 20 A: But no, not that bad, no, no. 21 Q: No, no. And so your way of 22 suggesting, distancing yourself from this call, is to 23 suggest that it wasn't you? 24 A: No, that wasn't me. If you want me 25 to go outside and phone in here, I'll be glad to do that.
311 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Scullion? 3 THE WITNESS: Or I can even -- 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'd suggest the 5 question's unfair. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well -- 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He's already 8 testified as to what he did, what he heard, what he spoke 9 about. He specified that this isn't him on the tape that 10 we've now received, not all of us, but we've heard it in 11 the Commission. 12 I think it's unfair to suggest that he's 13 distancing himself from a phone call he wasn't part of. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That he says 15 he wasn't part of. I think unless you can tie him 16 somehow to this phone call, I think you'll have to be 17 careful, you -- 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I appreciate 19 that -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With the 21 questions you ask him. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- Mr. 23 Commissioner. My point is that, having been confronted 24 with a phone call, the substance of which contradicts the 25 evidence before you this morning, one (1) possibility and
321 explanation is for this witness to contend that it's not 2 his voice. 3 I've made my point, Mr. Commissioner, and 4 I will move on. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: See, I am going to suggest to you, 10 sir, and it will be up to Mr. Commissioner to make the 11 decision, I am going to suggest to you, sir, that that 12 call, indeed, is from you. 13 A: And I'll bet you a million dollars, 14 it wasn't. 15 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 16 that you only made one (1) phone call that night to the 17 police and that it occurred at or around 4:10 or 4:20 18 a.m. 19 A: And I'm going to suggest to you that 20 I made three (3). 21 Q: And, sir, you indicated that in this 22 third phone call that you claim that you made between 23 12:30 and 1:00 that another individual got on the phone 24 line with you, on your cell phone you said it was? 25 A: Yes.
331 Q: And what's the name of that 2 individual? 3 A: One (1) of the guys' relatives. I 4 think I've said it two (2) or three (3) times now. 5 Q: I didn't ask you what his 6 relationship was, sir, I asked you his name. What's his 7 name? 8 A: Do you really need to know? 9 Q: Well, unless Mr. Commissioner rules 10 that it's not appropriate, then yes. I'm entitled to ask 11 that, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which end is 13 this? Is this the Officer Babbitt end? The person got 14 on -- is this from the native end? 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: My 16 understanding is that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Somebody got 18 on this end? 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 21 think that's important for us to know who that is, if you 22 know. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't mind. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you 25 know --
341 THE WITNESS: If I have to, it's no 2 problem. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you know 4 it, I think you should -- 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- answer 7 this question. 8 THE WITNESS: It's Martin Doxtator. 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 10 THE WITNESS: You're very welcome. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, Mr. 12 Commissioner, I'd be proposing at this time to tender the 13 CD that captures this call, subject to further proof and 14 I anticipate that we're going to be hearing directly from 15 Doug Babbitt. 16 So if we could -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 I think it becomes 327. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-327. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-327. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-327: CD of phone call generated 23 from an audio tape September 24 07/'95 04:20 hours. 25
351 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, I can also 2 indicate, sir, that the CD was generated from an 3 audiotape. And I anticipate, sir, that we're going to 4 hear evidence that Officer Babbitt marked on the outside 5 of the audiotape a date of September the 7th, 1995, a 6 time of 04:20 hours, a designation of unknown caller and 7 then a number sign with a "3" after it. 8 And so I'm also going to propose at this 9 time, sir, is to tender a photocopy of the cassette tape, 10 again subject to further proof, of the audiotape from 11 which the CD was generated. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-328. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-328, thank 14 you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-328: Xerox copy of audio cassette 17 tape marked 07 September, '95 18 0420 hours, Number 3 u/k 19 caller 20 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, sir, as 22 further proof of the timing of this call, I anticipate 23 we're going to hear evidence that Officer Babbitt 24 immediately contacted the Command Centre. 25 That call is captured in a logger tape and
361 is time stamped. I'm happy to play that excerpt right 2 now; it's very brief. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 4 think it's necessary at this point. 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: But what I 6 would do, sir, is propose to tender that call at this 7 time, again it's subject to further proof and I'm only 8 doing it now just to keep everything together. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes?. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Obviously the 11 difficulty is that the tape hasn't been proven in any 12 way, shape or form. On the other hand, I'm cognizant of 13 -- of -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What we've 15 done in other situations. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, that's right. I 17 think for ident -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 19 reluctant to admit it yet until there's some evidence 20 that connects the tape to what we're doing. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Very well, sir. 22 Then what I will do is, we'll hang onto it and I 23 anticipate it'll be tendered through Officer Babbitt when 24 he comes to testify. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think
371 that's a better idea. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 4 Q: Sir, I gather from your evidence 5 yesterday, excuse me, that you trusted the SIU officers 6 with whom you dealt? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: And I also gather, sir, from your 9 evidence yesterday that you had no reluctance whatsoever 10 in speaking with the SIU officers? 11 A: None. 12 Q: Indeed, I'm going to suggest to you, 13 again based on what you told us yesterday that you were 14 actually anxious to get to him -- get to them, rather? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Because you wanted to be able to put 17 forth the First Nations perspective of what occurred on 18 the night in question? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And as we've heard, you had a certain 21 intimate knowledge of that perspective? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And as we've also heard, and again 24 I'm going to suggest it's a reflection of your desire to 25 be speaking with them, you regularly kept the SIU
381 officers up-to-date as to certain developments as they 2 occurred? 3 A: Pretty much. 4 Q: And you told us yesterday of specific 5 things that you claim that you told them about, for 6 example, this alleged threat by Jim Potts; correct? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: The mystery surrounding the phone 9 bills? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: You, I understand, also claim to have 12 told them about the phone calls that you had with Officer 13 Babbitt? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: The SIU reports, sir, that have been 16 produced to us to-date, suggest that your first contact 17 with SIU investigators took place on September the 19th, 18 1995. 19 Do you have any reason to disagree with 20 that day? 21 A: I never marked down no days, no. I 22 had no reason to. 23 Q: Does it sound about right? 24 A: It could be. I -- I know it was a 25 long time because I wanted to see them on the 9th or the
391 10th or the 1lth, I wanted to see them. 2 Q: And you wanted to talk to them? 3 A: Yes, I did. As a Native 4 investigator, I surely did. 5 Q: And you wanted to hand over the stuff 6 that you had picked up and collected as soon as possible? 7 A: I wanted direction, plus I wanted 8 that, plus I wanted more knowledge on what was happening, 9 what was going on. 10 Q: Okay. In the binder in front of you, 11 sir, I want to take you to Tab 12. For the purposes of 12 the record, that is Document 1001791. 13 And I'm interested in starting, sir, at 14 page 7 of that document. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: All right. And I'm only interested 20 in this page for the purposes of establishing the date of 21 what I'm about to ask you about. You'll see, sir, an 22 entry about a third of the way down referencing Tuesday, 23 September the 19th, 1995. 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes, I see that.
401 Q: And my understanding, sir, is that 2 this report was authored by a gentleman by the name of Ed 3 Wilson. Do you recognize that name? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: He was a man that you had dealings 6 with from time to time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: From the SIU? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And if you turn the page, I'm 11 interested in an entry time stamped 16:10, which I assume 12 is 4:10 p.m. in the afternoon. Do you see that, page 8? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the entry says: 15 "Meet with Marvin Conners.." 16 Now, pausing now because we haven't really 17 heard much about the name of Marvin Connors. Who was he? 18 A: I'm just like you. I -- I don't 19 really know. 20 Q: You don't know who Marvin Connors was? 21 A: No, ma'am. 22 Q: I understand, sir, that he was 23 actually a peacekeeper that was brought in. 24 A: Yes, he was. He was brought in from 25 somewhere. I -- I even asked just from two (2) or three
411 (3) days ago and the only thing I could come up with was 2 he was an American. 3 Q: An American? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. We also seen -- with Marvin 6 Connors, Jim Tobias. Who's Jim Tobias? 7 A: He's a -- a faith keeper from 8 Moraviantown. 9 Q: Okay. And two (2) other Natives at 10 Kettle Point Restaurant. The Natives identified 11 themselves only as Layton and it appears to a terrible 12 butchering of your surname, but Elijah. 13 Now clearly those aren't two (2) people and 14 you -- okay. My understanding, sir, is that you testified 15 yesterday that you attended with Gabe Doxtator. 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: All right. So it may very well be 18 that what the officers are referring to and -- and the 19 officer will have to -- to clarify it. But he's referring 20 to you and perhaps he's just misidentified Mr. Doxtator. 21 A: Yes. I -- I noticed that a while 22 back. 23 Q: It's your recollection, sir, that when 24 you first met with Mr. Wilson that you were in the company 25 of the gentlemen whose names I've just read out?
421 A: Yes. But they stayed in the other 2 part. 3 Q: Pardon? 4 A: Yes. But they stayed in the other 5 part of the restaurant. 6 Q: Oh. All right. So you met alone with 7 Mr. Wilson? 8 A: Alone with Gabe. 9 Q: Alone with Gabe? All right. Well, 10 that makes sense, because what I'm interested in is the 11 next couple of sentences. They spoke of evidence they had 12 seized and video -- sorry, they spoke of evidence they had 13 seized and a videotape they had taken after the incident. 14 So pausing there, I gather what you're 15 telling me is that you and Mr. Doxtator went aside with 16 Mr. Wilson. And I trust that you spoke to him about some 17 of the evidence that had been seized by the First Nations 18 investigators and some of the tapes that had been made? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And then it says, "they 21 asked if there was a charge for tampering with evidence." 22 Now do you recall asking that question? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And were you concerned about your own 25 jeopardy or the jeopardy of some of your fellow
431 investigators because they were collecting evidence? 2 A: No. 3 Q: What were you concerned about? 4 A: I was concerned about why we couldn't 5 meet the people that were holding them back. I was going 6 to ask if they were -- could be liable for -- for that 7 tampering with evidence to try and make that evidence no 8 good, is what we were talking about. 9 Q: So this conversation is about your 10 asking if the -- someone at Kettle Point such as Chief 11 Bressette or a councillor could be criminally liable for 12 tampering with the evidence because they prevented the SIU 13 from coming into speak with you? 14 A: Exactly. 15 Q: Okay. Well we'll hear from Mr. Wilson 16 about that okay? And it then goes on to say: 17 "They both showed concern of warrants 18 outstanding for themselves." 19 Well, do you recall a conversation about 20 that? 21 A: Warrants for the SIU? 22 Q: No. I'm taking it and again we'll 23 have to hear from Mr. Wilson, but I'm taking what's being 24 said is that he's attributing to you and Mr. Doxtator, a 25 concern about outstanding warrants, arrest warrants I can
441 only assume, that you were facing or that you had a 2 concern you were facing? 3 A: Oh, no. I wasn't facing anything. 4 Q: Well that would be my first question. 5 Do you recall raising this with him? 6 A: Not me, no. Maybe Gabe and not 7 myself. 8 Q: Well, you see it's interesting because 9 the officer hasn't recorded that it was Mr. Wilson. He 10 has suggested in this entry that it was both of you. 11 A: Oh, no. Not me. 12 Q: So he would have it wrong it would 13 appear? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you remember, specifically, Mr. 16 Doxtator raising this question? 17 A: No. 18 Q: So as far as you were concerned no 19 topic about outstanding warrants came up? 20 A: There could have been but not that I 21 would be aware of or concerned about. 22 Q: I'm sorry. When you say there could 23 have been are your referring -- 24 A: On myself, there was none. 25 Q: Just allow me to ask the question,
451 sir. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether or not the 2 topic came up? 3 A: It could have. 4 Q: It could have, thank you. And was 5 there any -- I gather from what you're telling me, sir, 6 that -- that you had no concern about coming forward to 7 the SIU investigators because you were concerned you might 8 be arrested. 9 Is that what you'd have us believe? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And as far as you were aware, 12 Mr. Doxtator didn't have any of those concerns. 13 A: No. 14 Q: See, I'm trying to find an explanation 15 as to why this was recorded -- 16 A: Well, maybe Mr. Doxtator did, but I 17 don't know about it. 18 Q: All right, and it also reflects here 19 that you were informed that this, meaning I only can 20 assume the dealing with outstanding warrants, did not fall 21 within the mandate of the SIU and that they were not 22 interested in what the two (2) of you had outstanding at 23 this point. 24 Do you recall any part of that 25 conversation?
461 A: No. 2 Q: No. And you'll agree, sir, that the 3 last entry reflects that everyone agreed to meet on 4 October the 2nd at the very same restaurant at nine 5 o'clock in the morning? 6 You see that there? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: The last entry, is it the next page? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's in the 12 same paragraph, I'm sorry. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Last sentence of 14 that paragraph -- 15 THE WITNESS: Oh, oh, okay, okay. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: It reads: 19 "Agreed to meet with above people on 20 October 2nd at Kettle Point Restaurant 21 at 09:00 hours." 22 A: Yes, that could have been. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 24 you, sir, that notwithstanding your purported eagerness to 25 meet with the SIU officers, you didn't show up for that
471 meeting. 2 A: Probably not, I don't know. 3 Q: If I could take you, sir, to page 10 4 of the same document... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: You'll see at the bottom of the page 10 the date, Monday October 2nd, 1995 and what I'm 11 interested, is what occurs or was reduced on the following 12 page, Page 11. 13 A: Page 11? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Okay, yeah. 16 Q: And you'll see there's an entry for 17 nine o'clock in the morning. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it says: 20 "Attend Kettle Point Restaurant, re- 21 scheduled meeting with Marvin Connors, 22 Jim Tobias, Layton, and Elijah and 23 possibly other natives who were to give 24 us statements concerning the shooting 25 incident and turn over a number of
481 exhibits." 2 Now I gather, sir, that in the meeting that 3 had occurred on September the 19th, it was agreed that the 4 purpose of that October 2nd meeting was to give you an 5 opportunity to turn over these exhibits that you claimed 6 were -- you were so anxious to turn over? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Right. And October 2nd rolls around 9 and you don't show up to deliver those exhibits, right? 10 A: That's when lawyer says, Don't go. 11 Q: Well, you'd agree with me that you 12 didn't show up -- 13 A: Yes, I just said a lawyer said, Don't 14 go. 15 Q: A lawyer said, Don't go? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Continuing on: 18 "These people failed to attend, with the 19 exception of Marvin Connors and another 20 male who identified himself as Chief Ray 21 John from Oneida who arrived at 10:05 22 a.m." 23 So it would appear that -- that they waited 24 around for at least an hour and five (5) minutes. 25 Now, pausing for a moment, and it may speak
491 for itself based on the notes, who was Chief Ray John? 2 A: That's exactly who he is, Chief Ray 3 John. 4 Q: Okay, and it says here: 5 "Marvin Connors apologized for the 6 inconvenience and said he did not know 7 until this morning that the others were 8 not going to come, as they had retained 9 legal Counsel by the name of Owen Young 10 who works out of Hamilton and 11 Brantford." 12 Now, before I go on, sir, I want to be very 13 careful, because I do not want you to convey to us 14 anything about any conversations you had with a lawyer, 15 Okay? That's subject to Solicitor/Client privilege and 16 nobody else here has any business knowing about anything 17 that was said, subject to that privilege. 18 But what I am interested in knowing about 19 is that you certainly a witness or a participant, perhaps, 20 is a better way of putting it. You weren't a participant 21 on the evening of the 6th at -- at the confrontation with 22 the police? 23 A: I was a participant? 24 Q: No, I'm saying you were -- 25 A: I don't think so.
501 Q: That's my point, you were not a 2 participant, right? 3 A: Oh, no, no. 4 Q: Right, okay. And so certainly you 5 didn't have any concerns that anything you might say to 6 the SIU would place you in any kind of jeopardy? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You had nothing to hide and -- and -- 9 or -- 10 A: Oh, no, never. 11 Q: -- nothing that you were concerned 12 about? 13 A: No, I had nothing to hide. 14 Q: Right. And yet you didn't show up at 15 the meeting? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I -- I also note -- and again, I 18 want to be careful how I ask you this and -- and I don't 19 want you responding when you ought not to be responding, 20 but if you carry on down, there's an entry that Wayne 21 Allen, and he was another of the SIU investigators with 22 whom you had contact? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: He indicates that at 12:30 p.m. he put 25 a call into Mr. Owen Young, Legal Counsel, who apparently
511 wasn't in, but a message was left for him. And at 16:30 2 or 4:32 p.m. Mr. Young apparently returned Mr. Allen's 3 call. And apparently during that call, Mr. Young stated 4 that he had not been retained, as yet, to represent the 5 Natives at Ipperwash, but would contact us if retained. 6 Now, what I'm essentially interested in 7 knowing, sir, is that notwithstanding your claim that you 8 -- you wanted to turn over this evidence, for whatever 9 reason, you did not come and attend this October 2nd 10 meeting, right? 11 A: Yes, we went through that. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I've -- I've let this go 13 on for a little bit, but the -- the Witness has indicated 14 as a consequence of receiving advice from a lawyer, he did 15 not go to a meeting. 16 There's other spins that are trying to be 17 put on this, I don't see the evidentiary basis for it. 18 The fact that he may have been in the process of retaining 19 Legal Counsel doesn't mean he didn't receive advice. And, 20 of course, in the next entry, a lawyer does confirm that, 21 in fact, he has now been retained, although it's a 22 different lawyer. 23 I just don't see where this is going. I -- 24 I - I don't think it's proper. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, perhaps
521 I should hear from you where you're going with this 2 because it does seem to me that it is part of 3 solicitor/client privilege. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I wanted to give 5 Mr. Elijah an opportunity, and it may be a very simple 6 explanation, to clarify why Mr. Young would have said -- 7 but again, if it's going to be getting into an area of 8 solicitor/client privilege, then I won't. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't think 10 it's helpful and I don't think it's necessary and I don't 11 think we should pursue it at this point. 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Fair enough, 13 sir. And as we've also heard from the Witness, he 14 indicated that he didn't have any concerns about his own 15 jeopardy, so I will move on. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's right. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: You described yesterday, sir, in 20 relation to Jim Potts, an incident that occurred, I think 21 you said 1996 or 1997 and you spoke, in particular, of a 22 meeting at Stoney Point where you claimed that Officer 23 Potts -- I'll use my words -- appeared to lose his cool. 24 Is that a fair way of characterizing it according to you? 25 A: In 1996 or '97, yes.
531 Q: All right. And you described a 2 meeting, as I said, that involved about 80 percent of the 3 Stoney Point community? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you indicated that Miles Bressette 6 was present? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you indicated that there were 9 members of the Anishnaabeg police service who were 10 present? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was one (1) of those individuals 13 present, Glen Bannon? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And I understand, sir, and I 16 anticipate that we're going to hear evidence that at the 17 material time, Miles Bressette, his employment was in 18 potential jeopardy as the Chief of the Kettle and Stony 19 Point police? 20 A: It could have been, yes. 21 Q: And I also anticipate, sir, that we're 22 going to hear that there were a number of members of the 23 community, both Kettle Point and Stoney Point, who were 24 publicly making an objection by way of protest, to that 25 possible eventuality?
541 A: I -- I'm not from that community. I 2 don't know. 3 Q: Were you aware, sir, that there were 4 protests going on at Kettle Point where views, strong 5 views, that Miles Bressette ought not have his employment 6 terminated, was going on? 7 A: I wasn't part of that, ma'am. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 9 Scullion...? 10 He's just said he wasn't part of it, that 11 may be the end of it. 12 OBJ MR. KEVIN SCULLION: The objection is to 13 the area of questioning. We've heard from Miles 14 Bressette -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He's been cross- 17 examined on his information. We didn't touch upon this 18 issue, it's obviously a significant issue. If I need to 19 bring him back to testify about all that went on in that 20 issue, I think that we're opening up a whole new world -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- for Mr. Bressette. 23 So, I don't think that's fair. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, this 25 witness has said he doesn't know anything about it, so I'm
551 not sure whether or not -- 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 3 Commissioner, it was this witness who brought this up 4 yesterday. I can indicate to you, sir, that -- that this 5 is -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Brought what 7 up yesterday, I'm sorry? 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: The 1997 9 meeting. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, the 11 meeting with Inspector Potts was -- 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He did bring 14 that up. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And he did bring 16 up the fact that Miles Bressette was a participant and 17 that Miles Bressette made an accusation against Officer 18 Potts. 19 In my respectful submission, I am 20 entitled -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- to pursue the 23 factual -- underpinnings surrounding that meeting and to 24 explore that with a view to challenging this witness' 25 claim as to the behaviour of Officer Potts.
561 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, so 2 you've asked -- the last question you asked he said he 3 didn't know anything about where you're going now. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: So his evidence 5 as I understand it, sir, is that he wasn't aware that any 6 type of a protest was going on. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: Is that your evidence, sir? 10 A: It's -- yeah. I didn't know until the 11 -- pretty well over. 12 Q: I -- 13 A: It lasted one (1) day or two (2) days. 14 Q: So you did know that something was 15 going on? 16 A: Yeah, but it had nothing to do with 17 anybody in the Camp. It was Kettle Point. It wasn't 18 Aazhoodena or the Oneida Peacekeepers. We were strictly 19 in Aazhoodena territory. Anything out there was out it 20 didn't have nothing to do with us. 21 Q: Well, sir, I'm going to anticipate 22 that there was a perception that it did have something to 23 do with you, and that was the reason that a meeting was 24 called -- I shouldn't say "perception" to do with you, 25 that it did somehow involve the Stoney Pointers, and that
571 as a result, Officer Potts suggested that a community 2 meeting take place at Stoney Point in which members of the 3 Stoney Point community attended, that Miles Bressette 4 attended, and that Chief Bannon attended and that Officer 5 Potts attended. 6 A: If you know, then tell me, because I 7 don't know about that -- what happened. I'm telling you I 8 don't know what happened. 9 Q: What you're -- what you're claiming, 10 sir, is that you don't know the purpose for which the 11 meeting was called? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. What I'm going to suggest 14 to you, sir, that at no time did Officer Potts lose his 15 cool. And what I'm going to suggest to you is that what 16 happened is there was a verbal confrontation between Miles 17 Bressette and Glenn Bannon where Miles Bressette accused 18 Glenn Bannon of coming in to take over his position. 19 Do you agree or disagree? 20 A: Okay. Is that to make him mad, is 21 that what you're trying to say? Is that the statement 22 that made him mad and get up and leave and break up the 23 meeting? Is that what you want me to answer? 24 Q: No, I want you to simply answer my 25 question, sir --
581 A: Okay, make it more clear. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, do you 3 want to try the question again? 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Certainly. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 7 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that 8 there was a verbal exchange between Miles Bressette and 9 Glenn Bannon in the presence of Officer Potts and others-- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was this 11 witness there? 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well, my 13 understanding from his evidence yesterday is that he must 14 have been there because he told us about the meeting. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: You were there, weren't you, Mr. 19 Elijah? 20 A: Yes, I was there. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: Yeah, that's why I said, Are you 23 saying that that's the statement that made Potts mad? And 24 you wouldn't answer me. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you've
591 got to answer the questions -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that the 4 lawyer asks, so continue your question -- 5 THE WITNESS: I was there. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 8 Q: What I'm curious in knowing is did 9 Miles Bressette and Glenn Bannon get into a verbal 10 exchange where Miles Bressette accused Chief Bannon of 11 trying to come in and take over his position and 12 essentially have the Anishnaabeg police come in and assume 13 the policing responsibility at the Kettle Point and Stoney 14 Point community? 15 A: Kettle Point, yes. 16 Q: So that verbal exchange did occur? 17 A: Yes, but that... 18 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 19 Glen Bannon got visibly upset by the accusation; do you 20 agree with that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 23 that at no point during that meeting did Officer Potts 24 lose control? 25 A: You didn't hear it all.
601 Q: So you're going to disagree with me? 2 A: What you said was true but you're 3 leaving some stuff out. 4 Q: So your evidence, sir, is that in 5 addition to a verbal exchange between Miles Bressette and 6 Glen Bannon, Jim Potts also got verbally upset? 7 A: Yes. Maybe two (2) minutes later, 8 three (3) minutes later after that between Miles and 9 Bannon. Yes, that did happen. 10 Q: Okay. Well we have your evidence on 11 that, sir. You claimed, sir, that Inspector Potts 12 threatened you with harm unless you stopped advancing the 13 theory that the OPP were drunk on the night in question. 14 Is that a fair way of -- of capturing your allegation? 15 A: That's fair. 16 Q: Okay. And I trust, sir, that you are 17 as certain about the occurrence of this threat as you are 18 that Bell Canada was tampering with your phone records 19 referable to the calls between the 4th and the 6th, 1995? 20 A: Around the 6th, 1995. 21 Q: And I trust, sir, that you are as 22 certain about the occurrence of this alleged threat as 23 your -- as you are about your claim that a secretary at 24 the London Detachment on the night of September 6th, was 25 aware of a plan to storm the Park?
611 A: You said that nice. But I said when 2 she said, Oh did it already happen, that's what I took it. 3 So if you want to say assumption, fine. 4 Q: And I trust, sir, that you are as 5 certain about the occurrence of this alleged threat by 6 Officer Potts as you are about your claim that men, 7 dressed in camouflage, entered the field behind the A- 8 frame on September 10th and 11th and removed garbage bags 9 full of items? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you are as certain about the 12 occurrence of this alleged threat as you are about your 13 claim that a floppy disk found in the field near the A- 14 frame contained false data about the number of true 15 attendances in March and April 1995 at Oneida. 16 A: Exactly. 17 Q: And I trust, sir, that you are also as 18 certain about the occurrence of that threat as you are 19 about your claim that an SIU officer told you that, You're 20 probably right, the OPP officers were drunk that night? 21 A: Did you hear that from me? 22 Q: I understood from your testimony 23 yesterday that when you told the SIU about your theory, 24 they said, You're probably right but you won't be able to 25 prove it.
621 A: There you go. 2 Q: Right. And tell me, sir, was that an 3 off-the-record comment? 4 A: It could have been. 5 Q: As represented to you? 6 A: It could have been because there was 7 lots. We just talked back and forth just like you and I. 8 Q: So are you saying to us that it could 9 have been that the SIU said to you, Off the record, 10 Layton, you're probably right that they were drunk but 11 you'll not be able to prove it? 12 A: They didn't say that, no. We were 13 just talking. 14 Q: So they didn't use the -- you see -- 15 A: No, no, no. 16 Q: -- we've heard. I'll tell you why I'm 17 asking this. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Ben Pouget testified that from time to 20 time the SIU would use the term, Off the record. 21 A: I never used that. 22 Q: I'm not asking you about whether you 23 used that. I'm curious as to whether the SIU ever used 24 that to you? 25 A: No.
631 Q: I trust, sir, that following this 2 purported threat by Officer Potts that you didn't trust 3 him very much? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And I trust, sir, that -- and, indeed, 6 you said it yesterday, in your view, he was not a very 7 good representative for the OPP? 8 A: No, not in the two (2) meetings. 9 Q: Pardon? 10 A: No, not in those two (2) meetings we 11 had. 12 Q: Right, two (2) -- right, not in those 13 two (2) meetings. 14 And I trust, sir, it was your position 15 that, as far as you were concerned, he wasn't a man who 16 could contribute to healthy relations between the Stoney 17 Point people and the OPP? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Now, I understand, sir, that he was 20 brought into the area and arrived on September the 7th, 21 1995. Do you have any reason to disagree with me? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And I understand his role -- and I'm - 24 - I'm curious to know what you believed his role to be -- 25 that he was there as a liaison between the OPP and the
641 Stoney Pointers; is that fair? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: You don't know what his role was? 4 A: No. 5 Q: But you certainly -- we know that he 6 was still involved in matters related to Kettle and Stony 7 Point in 1997, because you've told us about this meeting 8 in which he was present at that year? 9 A: I didn't know if he was involved, I 10 know he was at that meeting. 11 Q: Right. At the very least, he still 12 had a presence in the community up to that point? 13 A: That day. 14 Q: That day. We know, sir, and I 15 anticipate that we're going to hear that he was involved 16 in the community quite heavily in those first couple of 17 months following the shooting. 18 And he continued to serve as a liaison 19 officer at least until 1997; you were aware of that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You didn't see him around? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Never? 24 A: Well, I seen him, yeah, but not in the 25 capacity that you said, because it was Hudson.
651 Q: Okay. I understand and you quite liked 2 Officer Hudson, I gather? 3 A: I liked anybody that would meet me 4 like a man. 5 Q: All right, fair enough. See, what I'm 6 curious about, sir, is that you seemed prepared to allow a 7 man, an officer with the OPP whom you didn't trust, whom 8 you thought wasn't the kind of person who could contribute 9 to healthy relations between the Stoney Pointers and the 10 police, you appeared to simply allow him to continue to 11 have a role in the community for quite some time? 12 A: No, I never. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry -- 14 THE WITNESS: I never. I didn't even know 15 he was there. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all respect, I 17 don't think that any foundation for that question has been 18 laid. Whether Mr. Elijah had any ability to determine who 19 would play what role in terms of the OPP and -- and the 20 Stoney Point community. He was head of security. He was 21 a peacekeeper. 22 Now, if My Friend wishes to establish a 23 foundation and then we can see whether or not that 24 question is appropriate. 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'm happy to do
661 that, Mr. Commissioner. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 4 Q: As has been made clear, sir, you were 5 the head of security? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You had the ear of Bruce Elijah? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You had the ear of some of the -- what 10 has sometimes been referred to as the, principle men, at 11 Stoney Point, people like Judas George, Glenn George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You had the ear -- you could speak to 14 Mike Hudson? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And is it fair to say that at no time 17 did you raise your concerns about Officer Potts with any 18 of these individuals? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So you did raise your concerns? 21 A: No. 22 Q: So you didn't see that it would be 23 appropriate to raise your concerns with these people? 24 A: When you're dealing with an entity 25 like the OPP and you get threatened like that --
671 Q: Right. 2 A: -- you don't raise it with nobody, you 3 just -- you don't know who to trust, believe me. 4 Q: But -- but, sir, surely you trusted 5 Bruce Elijah? 6 A: Oh, yeah. 7 Q: Right, but you didn't tell Bruce 8 Elijah about your concerns about Inspector Potts, that's 9 what you've just told us? 10 A: Oh, yes, I did. 11 Q: Well, now you're changing your 12 evidence. 13 A: You're -- you're telling me that I 14 tell any of the OPP, which I never. 15 Q: No. 16 A: Yes, I told Bruce, I told Gord. 17 Q: You raised these concerns? You told 18 Gord Peters? 19 A: Oh, yeah, just like, Hey, man, I've 20 been threatened. 21 Q: And was it your evidence that they 22 didn't care? How did they respond when you told them 23 this? 24 A: Nothing, just -- nothing, just took it 25 in, I guess.
681 Q: So, you'd have us believe they were 2 prepared to allow this to -- to go unaddressed? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Thank you, sir. 5 A: You're welcome. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that 10 at no time did Inspector Potts threaten you. 11 You can agree or disagree. 12 A: Disagree. 13 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 14 that while he did have a conversation and you may have 15 been present at that conversation, he did have a 16 conversation to the effect of, You can't honestly believe 17 that the OPP were drunk in the night in question. 18 So, indeed, what I'm saying to you, sir, is 19 that there was a conversation in which he was involved 20 with Ben Pouget, possibly you were there. But I'm going 21 to suggest to you that what he said is that, No, you can't 22 honestly believe that the police were drunk in the night 23 in question, and that at no time during that same 24 conversation did he make a threat. 25 And you can agree or disagree.
691 A: I just told you. 2 Q: Is it your evidence, sir, that only on 3 the two (2) occasions that you've described that Officer 4 Potts "lost it" as you've said? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you have occasion to have dealings 7 with him at other times? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So the only two (2) times that you had 10 dealings with him, you found him very difficult to deal 11 with? 12 A: Yes. I met him in the Park, myself. 13 The second time, it was the whole community. So it wasn't 14 just with me, plus I never had nothing to say. I just 15 looked at him over there and I just minded my own 16 business. 17 Q: So, did it strike you that -- that he 18 was the type of person who could quickly fly off the 19 handle, from your experience with him on those two (2) 20 occasions? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you, sir. 23 A: You're welcome. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Those are my 25 questions, Mr. Commissioner.
701 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 3 Ms. Jones, how long do you think you might 4 be; does your estimate change as a result of the questions 5 we've just had, can you shorten, lengthen, or how long do 6 you think you might be? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: About the same, about 8 thirty (30) to forty-five (45) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 10 can't hear. Thirty (30) to forty-five (45)? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Thirty (30) to forty- 12 five (45) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 14 should take a break. I was hoping we could finish with 15 this witness before the morning break, but that was 16 unrealistic, so I think we'll take a break now. 17 Thank you very much, Ms. Jones. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:30 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:50 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.
711 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Good morning, Mr. Elijah. 5 A: Good morning, sibowee (phonetic). 6 Q: My name's Karen Jones. I'm one (1) of 7 the lawyers for the Ontario Provincial Police Association. 8 And, Mr. Elijah, I wanted to ask you some 9 questions about when you got to the Park. You had told us 10 you got there on the night of September the 8th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah, sometime -- it was dark, you 13 thought, after nine o'clock? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you talked about you and about 16 thirty-six (36) men getting on the school bus and being 17 driven to the Park -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- from the Base, and you talked about 20 you and others sleeping in the bus that night. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I wondered if you can tell us, 23 over the course of the next week or two (2) weeks that you 24 were in the Park, if you or others used the bus to get 25 around or used it to transport people over the course of
721 time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yes? Can you tell us a little bit 4 about that? 5 A: Well, there was no place for us to 6 live or sleep or whatever, so we just made beds in there 7 and we kept our food in there, because it was -- the sand 8 was blowing all over. 9 So it was like our kitchen, our bedroom -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- we had one (1) TV, we had power, 12 we had -- that was our -- our house. 13 Q: Okay. And you used it constantly for 14 a period of time as your house? 15 A: For a period of time, yes -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- until it started to get a lot 18 colder and then some people got invited to stay with other 19 people. And some people were lucky enough to get tents 20 and somebody donated a trailer. 21 But other than that the bus was our main 22 living... 23 Q: Okay. And you talked about the night 24 that you got there about you and others walking around the 25 Park in the sandy parking lot and down East Parkway and
731 Army Camp Road. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And I understand that you and 4 others also patrolled those areas over the course of the 5 time that your were there? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And we've heard from other witnesses 8 that there were a number of visitors to the Base and the 9 Park after September the 6th; people that came in to lend 10 support and that kind of thing. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I think we heard several hundred 13 people did that. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that some 16 of those people would also have come down to the Park, and 17 gone through the sandy parking lot and looked at the area 18 where the confrontation had taken place? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It was pretty heavily travelled? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And I just wanted to ask you 23 one (1) more thing about that sandy parking lot. You had 24 told Ms. Vella yesterday that you were sure that there was 25 a street light in the sandy parking lot?
741 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. I anticipate we're going to 3 hear evidence that no street light was put in the sandy 4 parking lot until 1996 or so; does that change your 5 recollection at all? 6 A: No. Unless somebody had just had a 7 bright light there, because we could see, you could see. 8 Q: Okay. But you can't tell us if it was 9 a street light or not? 10 A: Not for certain, but it was a bright 11 light. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: A bright light. Whether you call it a 14 street light or not, I'm not certain. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: It was lit up pretty good. 17 Q: Okay. And was it a light that was 18 there all the time that you were there? 19 A: At night. 20 Q: That light in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: At night, yes. 22 Q: At night. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. So it wouldn't, for example, 25 have been -- when you say the area was lit up, it wouldn't
751 have been someone's flashlight or a spotlight or something 2 like that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. 5 A: No. It was on one (10 of the 6 buildings. 7 Q: Yeah. So from -- it sounds like from 8 what you're saying, it must have been something like a 9 street light to be on at night all the time -- 10 A: Yeah. It was there -- 11 Q: -- in one (1) place. 12 A: Yeah. You can -- you can get those 13 from the hydro company. 14 Q: Sure. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Sure. And you've talked a little 17 about some of the defences that were in place and that you 18 continued on when you got there. And you spoke a little 19 bit for example, about patrolling around the Park and the 20 Base and on Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 21 And I wanted to see if you could help us 22 understand what, if any, other measures you had people 23 undertake in order to make sure that the Park and the Base 24 were protected or that you could maintain control over 25 them.
761 We've heard, for example, that there were 2 sandbags that had been put up in the sandy parking lot 3 area. Had that happened before you arrived or was that 4 something that you initiated? 5 A: I don't know. No, I wouldn't have 6 said sandbags, no. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall them being there 8 when you got to the Park on the night of September the 9 8th? 10 A: I can't even remember. 11 Q: Okay. We've also heard some evidence 12 that a back-hoe was used to move some sand into a sand 13 pile by the south end of the sandy parking lot and to dig 14 some holes, sort of bunkers, at the north end of the sandy 15 parking lot. 16 Were you involved in making the 17 arrangements for the use of the back-hoe? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Did that happen while you were 20 in charge of security? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you know that the back-hoe had 23 been used -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- in those areas? Okay. One (1) of
771 the other things that we've seen in this proceeding, is 2 we've seen some pictures of what looked like bunkers or 3 fox holes or holes dug into the ground by the grassy knoll 4 area at the south end of the sandy parking lot. 5 Did you see those when you were at the Base 6 or the Park? 7 A: Yeah, I think I did, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And were those things that you 9 had created or caused to be created -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- or were they there before you got 12 there? 13 A: No, I just knew they were there; I 14 just seen them. 15 Q: Okay. And you talked about, 16 yesterday, the First Nations investigation that you 17 undertook; and you said that it was something that was 18 done for yourselves and for the people of Stoney Point. 19 And can you help us understand what the 20 point of your investigation was; what were you trying to 21 find? 22 A: Anything and everything. 23 Q: Anything or everything -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- for what end, for what purpose?
781 A: There's some -- there had been some 2 wrongdoing happen there, and I wanted to find out what was 3 left. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Where it was left. 6 Q: Okay. And you said that the 7 investigation was still going on? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what measures 10 you or other people, if you know, are taking in terms of a 11 continued investigation? 12 A: No, just hear -- whatever we hear, we 13 just gather. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, there were a couple of instances 19 or things that happened that Ben Pouget told us a little 20 bit about. And I wanted to ask you if you knew anything 21 about those matters as well. And I had taken Mr. Pouget 22 to some entries from his notes and for the assistance of 23 the Commission, that was Exhibit P-319. 24 And if it helps you, Mr. Elijah, I can ask 25 that the document be put in front of you or I can just
791 explain to you what I wanted to ask you about. 2 A: Okay, no problem. 3 Q: Whatever your preference is. 4 A: It -- it can be read to me. 5 Q: Okay. There is an entry on page 17 of 6 those notes and it was dated -- it looked like October 7 26th,'95. And what you'll see, if you look at that, is 8 the first page isn't numbered. 9 And if you go to the second page, you'll 10 see on the top right-hand corner of each page there's a 11 number? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: So, if you go to page 17. 14 A: Got it. 15 Q: Okay? And in the second paragraph 16 down -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- it says: 19 "Ask Martin or Layton about pipe and 20 sawed-off shotgun that was thrown over 21 the fence behind Dudley's house with a 22 handful of 30/30 casings (September 23 11th, or September 12, nighttime), 24 'Master Blaster' was on it." 25 And, when I asked Mr. Pouget about this, he
801 said that you may be someone who would know about the pipe 2 and sawed-off shotgun thrown over the fence behind 3 Dudley's house. 4 Do you have a recollection of that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No? 7 A: No. My job was inside the Park. 8 Q: Okay. I can -- 9 A: My -- my job was entirely inside the 10 Park. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Entirely. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Even if they were gathering evidence, 15 I was not there, so -- because if there was ever a day for 16 us to enter a court room or anything they could never say 17 that I put it there. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: I understood from what you had said 20 that you organized, though, for example, security -- 21 A: Pardon me? 22 Q: -- during -- I -- I had understood 23 from what you said earlier -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- that as head of security, you
811 would have been responsible, for example, for organizing 2 the people that were patrolling the Park and the Base? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I take it that if people had 5 findings that they would come to you and tell you about 6 those findings? 7 A: Yeah, if it was evidence, yes, and -- 8 no, I never got that. 9 Q: Okay. You never heard about that? 10 A: No, no. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: The first time was yesterday 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But you can ask the other guy. 15 Q: We shall see. And similarly, if you 16 flip back to page 13. 17 A: Got it. 18 Q: You'll see that there's an entry that 19 starts, "Some of the peacekeepers noticed early that 20 morning," and it refers to September 15th, 1995, that: 21 "Some infiltrators coming in from Outer 22 Drive carrying automatic weapons with 23 night vision, because they saw these 24 guys so they took off, native men. But 25 that afternoon about 15:00 hours we, the
821 peacekeepers, take some footprints and 2 one (1) rifle butt imprinted in the 3 sand." 4 And I'm not sure if you were here where Mr. 5 Pouget was talking about this -- 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: -- but he -- okay, so you know he was 8 saying that there were people who were seen going from the 9 Base out onto Outer Drive, and that those people were 10 carrying automatic weapons? 11 A: I heard that. 12 Q: Okay. Now, did you know anything 13 about this prior to hearing Mr. Pouget; did anyone report 14 to you about this? 15 A: Yes, Ben did himself. But myself and 16 two (2) other people went and looked and I never seen 17 nothing, no evidence of dragging. Like, it would have 18 been left in the sand. 19 Q: Okay, so let me just go back a bit. I 20 take it, then, that you would have heard a report from 21 someone about this? 22 A: I heard the report from Ben. 23 Q: From? 24 A: Ben Pouget. 25 Q: From Ben?
831 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And as a result of that report, 3 you went to the area? 4 A: Yes, I went to the area -- 5 Q: Which was out -- 6 A: -- myself with a couple of other guys 7 and we walked around and that's why we didn't follow it 8 up, because I couldn't find nothing to -- to make me want 9 to spend more time on it. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And then the last thing I wanted to 15 ask you about, was you told us a little bit about men in 16 vans. 17 A: About? 18 Q: That you -- the men in vans that you 19 saw -- you had mentioned in your evidence yesterday, that 20 I think on September 12th and 13th, if I'm not mistaken, 21 that there were men in camouflage --- 22 A: Oh, okay, yeah. 23 Q: -- in vans. And I wanted to see if 24 you could describe, a little more fully, what you saw. 25 And first of all, can I just make sure that
841 this was something you observed or was it something 2 someone told to you? 3 A: Someone told me and then I observed 4 it. 5 Q: Okay. So can you walk us through from 6 the start, about who told you what and then what you did? 7 A: Okay. Is -- when they told me, they 8 said, There's those same vans. So I -- I -- we were about 9 at the bridge, so that's about a hundred (100) yards from 10 the road. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: We seen the vans pull up, some guys 13 jump out and just take off across the field and they only 14 gone ten (10), twenty (20) minutes and back in the van and 15 gone. 16 But the van went -- dropped them off and 17 left. So -- 18 Q: Okay. So let me just go back a little 19 bit, and I don't mean to interrupt you, but I sort of want 20 to take it step by step. 21 You had said that you were on the bridge or 22 by the bridge? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and someone came and spoke to 25 you, or people came and spoke to you?
851 A: Yes. 2 Q: Who -- who was that; who came and 3 talked to you? 4 A: I don't really know his name. He's -- 5 he's from -- he's from Kettle Point, but he lived in 6 London and he lived -- he was married to an Oneida, so 7 that's why he was with the Oneidas. 8 Q: Okay, so a person came and spoke to 9 you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And as a result, you and that person, 12 did you go closer to the -- 13 A: Yes, we did. 14 Q: -- sandy parking lot or the road so 15 you -- 16 A: Just -- 17 Q: -- could see? 18 A: Yeah, just close enough to get the -- 19 the colours of the vans -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- and that was it, and -- 22 Q: Okay, and what were the colours of the 23 vans and how many of them were there? 24 A: Two (2) -- two (2) vans. 25 Q: Two (2) vans.
861 A: A blue one with tinted out windows and 2 a purple one with tinted out windows. 3 Q: One (1) was -- had tinted, purple 4 windows? 5 A: Yeah, oh yeah, both of them. Real 6 dark tint. 7 Q: Okay, and what were their colours? 8 A: Pardon me? 9 Q: And -- they -- you -- sorry -- 10 A: Purple and blue. 11 Q: Purple and blue, okay. And you say 12 people got out of the vans? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you describe how many people 15 and what they looked like or what they were wearing? 16 A: I would say four (4) got out of the 17 one and five (5) got out of the other one. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Nine (9) people. 20 Q: And can you describe the people to us? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No, not at all? 23 A: Just that they weren't none of us. 24 Q: When you say, "they weren't none of 25 us," what does that mean?
871 A: Natives. 2 Q: They weren't natives? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Can you describe the people to 5 us? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No, not at all? 8 A: No, just that they weren't none of us. 9 Q: When you say "They weren't none of 10 us," what does that mean? 11 A: Natives. 12 Q: They weren't Natives? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Can you describe them any 15 further than that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And what were they wearing? 18 A: Camouflage. Like, they weren't 19 wearing army fatigue, they were wearing black fatigues and 20 grey fatigues. 21 Q: Okay. And you said they got out and 22 the vans left? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And where did the vans go? 25 A: I don't know.
881 Q: Did you see how the vans came in to 2 that area? 3 A: They come through Outer -- they come - 4 - they come down Army Camp Road, the guys jumped out and 5 then they went down I think it's East Parkway Drive. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And they come back the same way to 8 pick them up and left the same way. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: A circle. 11 Q: Okay. And was that -- that was the 12 first time that you saw any vans? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did you see -- you've told 15 us about the colour of the vans and the tinted windows. 16 Were you -- was that the occasion when you 17 got license plates? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. What was the next occasion that 22 you saw the vans? 23 A: The next day. I told everybody to be 24 prepared, get the license plate numbers and if you can get 25 pictures of their face.
891 Q: Okay. And who were you with? 2 A: Oh, gees. I can't remember right now 3 who it was. I had a couple of guys wait out there because 4 it was -- we didn't know, like if they were going to show 5 up at ten o'clock or 10:30 or eleven o'clock or one 6 o'clock. 7 So I didn't want to have too many men put 8 on that. 9 Q: Sure. But you had some people there-- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- and they had cameras? 12 A: Yes, and they got license plate 13 numbers. 14 Q: And they had cameras too? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And do you remember what time 17 the vans came back? 18 A: The same two (2) Chevy vans. 19 Q: Okay. Do you remember about what time 20 of day that was? 21 A: That was about 1:30, two o'clock in 22 the afternoon. 23 Q: Okay. And did you -- the cameras were 24 ready to take pictures? 25 A: No.
901 Q: No? What happened to that? 2 A: I don't know. I don't know. They 3 just got startled. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: They got startled, they didn't even 6 expect them. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Because I -- I asked them. I said 9 well why not, you know. I want pictures and all we got 10 was license plate numbers, that's good enough. 11 Q: Okay. Were you -- were you right 12 there when the vans came in? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No? Okay. So what, the vans came in 15 and you weren't there -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- at that point in time? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And so did you arrive? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You didn't see the vans the second 24 day? 25 A: No.
911 Q: You did not? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You were relying on what other people 4 told you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And do you recall who the 7 people were that were there the second day with the 8 cameras and with the paper and pens or whatever to take 9 down the license plates? 10 A: The one (1) guy's name is the same 11 guy, he's from Kettle Point. If I ever -- I'll find his 12 name and I think the other person was Randy Hill 13 (phonetic). 14 Q: I'm really having a hard time hearing 15 you, I'm sorry. 16 A: The same guy that told me in the first 17 place, he was one of them. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: And the other person was Randy Hill. 20 Q: Randy Hill? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And who's Randy Hill? 23 A: Just a guy. He's from Oneida. 24 Q: Okay. And they gave Randy Hill and 25 this Kettle Point person gave you the information about
921 the license plates? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And what did you do with it 4 after you got the information about the license plates? 5 A: I gave it to Anishnaabeg police. 6 Q: And who did you give it to? 7 A: I do not know. 8 Q: And was it one of the -- did you give 9 it to the person on that very day? 10 Sorry, did you give the license plate 11 number or numbers to the Anishnaabeg police the same day 12 that the van was there? 13 A: No. No. 14 Q: That is the second day? 15 A: The second day. 16 Q: Yeah, the second day. So you gave it 17 to the police that very same day? 18 A: The second day. No. 19 Q: The second day? 20 A: I got them and I had them for a whole 21 day. 22 Q: Okay. So the day after? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And was it one of the 25 Anishnaabeg police that was on patrol?
931 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And what did you do when you 3 gave that person the license plate numbers? 4 What did you say? 5 A: I -- I asked if he could run the plate 6 numbers and get whatever information he could for me. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: But I also told him why. So whoever 9 it was, if you can -- I think you have a way to find out 10 who it was, he'll verify everything I'm saying. 11 Q: Okay. And what happened after that? 12 A: He come back that night. 13 Q: That same night? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So the day after, he came back? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: The day after you saw the van, you 18 gave it to him, he came back to you that night? 19 A: That same -- I gave it -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- to him in the day time -- 22 Q: Right. 23 A: -- he come back that same night and 24 all he said was, It's unattainable, sorry. 25 Q: Okay. And did you ask him why it was
941 unattainable? 2 A: No, I just figured it was -- I hate to 3 say "assumption" or "assume" but I assumed it was OPP. 4 Q: And why would it have been 5 unobtainable for an Anishnaabeg police to run the licence 6 plate? 7 A: Well, maybe -- 8 Q: Do you know? What was your 9 assumption? 10 A: My assumption was that they were 11 working for the same guy. 12 Q: That the Anishnaabeg police were 13 working for the OPP? 14 A: No, they had the same boss and he 15 couldn't or didn't want to give me the names. 16 Q: Okay, when you say "He had the same 17 boss" are you talking about the Anishnaabeg policeman had 18 the same boss -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- as the OPP? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Maybe they're different, I don't know. 24 But I assume. 25 Q: That's what you thought. And you then
951 talked about giving that information to the SIU? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And I'm going to get to what 4 you gave to the SIU in a while, but can you remember at 5 all when you gave the SIU the information about the 6 licence plates? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Would it have been soon after you 9 started meeting them? 10 A: It could have been, it could have 11 been. 12 Q: You don't know? 13 A: No, I don't know. 14 Q: Okay. Now, you talked about the 15 people from the vans going out to behind the A-frames, and 16 I take it as part of the security that you were 17 responsible for, that you would have had people in and 18 around that area? 19 A: Oh, no, not the daytime. 20 Q: Okay, not in the daytime? 21 A: Oh, no, no. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: It was too tense. Our lives are worth 24 something. 25 Q: Okay.
961 A: My job was to keep them alive. 2 Q: Sure. Did you have people on a daily 3 -- let me just go back a little bit. 4 One (1) of the things I had understood 5 from Ben Pouget is that he and others spent some time, 6 some fair bit of time, going through the Ministry of 7 Natural Resources parking lot area and going through the 8 trails and the paths that were in and around that area, 9 leading to the A-frame and, on the other hand, going all 10 the way to Kettle Point. 11 I had understood from him and from his 12 evidence that he and others were out there fairly 13 frequently, keeping an eye on what was going on. 14 A: That was -- that was -- that was what 15 he said and that was true, but that wasn't like the next 16 day or the next day. 17 Q: Okay. So this happened after? 18 A: Yes, after we had more -- more 19 knowledge where the police were and people were talking. 20 Q: Okay. Do you know whether the first 21 time you got information about, for example, the Ministry 22 of Natural Resources parking lot area or the condition of 23 the area where the trails and the paths were by the A- 24 frame on that south side of East Parkway. 25 When did you first start getting
971 information about what was back there and what people had 2 seen? 3 A: The next day. 4 Q: The next day being the day -- 5 A: 9th of September, 1995. 6 Q: Okay. The night that you got there, 7 the -- that is the night of the 8th or the night after -- 8 A: The 9th. 9 Q: The 9th? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That was when people started going out 12 and giving you -- 13 A: No, that's -- 14 Q: -- information? 15 A: -- when I got information, that's what 16 you asked me. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: That's when I got information. 19 Q: You know, I don't think my question is 20 very clear and I'm sorry about that, but I'm trying to 21 just make sure that it's clear when you started getting 22 information from others about what was in the MNR parking 23 lot or the pit trap -- paths and the trails on the south 24 side of East Parkway? 25 A: The 9th.
981 Q: The 9th, okay. And would people have 2 gone out on a daily basis -- 3 A: Not really. 4 Q: -- through those areas? 5 A: Not really. Not to -- not to my 6 knowledge, now. 7 Q: Okay. And did you get any information 8 from anyone about whether or not anything had changed to 9 their knowledge during the period of time before, from -- 10 there was a period of time when people were going to the 11 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot and out in the 12 paths and the trails from the 9th on, that you knew of. 13 And then you've talked about this incident with the vans 14 that was four (4) or five (5) days later. 15 Did you get any information from 16 anyone about a change or changes that they attributed to 17 the people in the vans; had anything changed? 18 A: In the field? 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: What? 22 A: There was not as much stuff back 23 there. 24 Q: And what do you mean by, "stuff?" 25 A: Debris.
991 Q: Debris. So, litter, cans -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- bottles -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: That kind of thing? And was that the 6 only change that you were told about? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And I then wanted to move on, 9 Mr. Elijah, to the SIU investigation. And you told us 10 yesterday that you gave a number of interviews to the SIU 11 and I wanted to see if we could pin down a little bit 12 better when you gave interviews to the SIU. 13 And let me just step back from that a 14 little bit. I understand that you would have met with the 15 SIU on a number of occasions, you had a number of meetings 16 with one (1) or more of the SIU investigators? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes? And I take it that some of them, 19 from what you say, would have been conversations? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And during the time that you were 22 having conversations with the SIU, would they have been 23 taking notes -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- of what was going on?
1001 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. Now, were there times when you 3 sat down with the SIU and they did take notes or they did 4 tape the conversations? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So, can we call those periods of time 7 interviews just to distinguish them from regular chats? 8 A: Okay, okay. 9 Q: So, can you give us some idea, in your 10 view, about how many times you met with the SIU where they 11 took formal notes and taped the conversation? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Any idea at all? 14 A: No. More than one (1). 15 Q: More -- more than one (1)? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Could it have been more than five (5)? 18 A: I don't know; that's what I don't 19 know. 20 Q: Okay. And do you have any idea about 21 when this would have happened, you would have had 22 interviews -- formal interviews -- with the SIU? 23 And let me just go back a little bit. Did 24 you have any in the first two (2) months that you were in 25 the Park, so, in September or October of 1995?
1011 A: Gees, I talked to them. I don't know 2 if they wrote anything down or not. 3 Q: Okay. And would you have had any 4 interviews, and I'm just seeing if breaking it down helps 5 you a little bit, between for example November of 1995 and 6 the summer of 1996? 7 A: Oh, yeah. 8 Q: So, during that winter? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. And would you have had more 11 than one (1)? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And, again, can you help us at 14 all with -- 15 A: Two (2) for sure. 16 Q: -- the number of interviews? Two (2) 17 for sure? 18 A: Two (2) for sure. 19 Q: Two (2) for sure and these were -- 20 these were interviews that were taped? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And can you think back about 23 what the -- what you were talking about in those 24 interviews? 25 A: Evidence, handing over evidence.
1021 Q: Handing over -- 2 A: On both occasions. 3 Q: I'm sorry? 4 A: Both occasions, handing over evidence. 5 Q: Okay. And can you tell us about the 6 first interview that you gave to the SIU in November -- 7 some time between November and the summer of 1996, about 8 handing over evidence? 9 What were you talking about? 10 A: Just -- they were doing all the 11 talking, I was just doing the answering and -- 12 Q: Sure. 13 A: -- it was just about the evidence. 14 Where I got it, who handed it over. 15 Q: Okay. And that was generally the same 16 with the second taped -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- interview that you had? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And then can we move on -- I'm 21 sorry, taking you up to the summer of 1996, did you have 22 any taped interviews with the SIU during the summer 23 itself, of 1996? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And how many interviews did you have
1031 in the summer of 1996? 2 A: One (1), maybe two (2). 3 Q: One (1) -- 4 A: One (1) for sure. 5 Q: -- or two (2)? 6 A: One (1) for sure. 7 Q: One (1) for sure and maybe two (2)? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And after the summer of 1996, did you 10 have any further interviews with the SIU? So that would 11 have been the fall of 1996 into 1997. 12 A: Not -- not where they wrote stuff 13 down; just talks. 14 Q: Okay. So you met with them but you 15 didn't have formal interviews? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: After the summer of 1996 -- 18 A: Yes, we just met. 19 Q: -- is that right? Okay. And I just 20 wanted to try and make sure that it's clear, what evidence 21 you and others under your authority had gathered and what 22 was handed to the SIU? And you gave a list yesterday to 23 Ms. Vella, over the course of a number of questions. 24 And I want to go through that list with you 25 and see if there's anything in terms of evidence that you
1041 or others had gathered that you wanted to add or you 2 wanted to change now, because you've had some time to go 3 through it and think about it. 4 One (1) of the things you told Ms. Vella 5 that you had gathered was the floppy disk that had the 6 information about the five (5) TRU excursions into Oneida, 7 right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: One (1) thing that you told Ms. Vella 10 that you and/or others had gathered were green garbage 11 bags? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And I wanted to see if we could 14 make it a little bit clearer about what was in those bags. 15 And I'm not talking about the garbage with bottles in it, 16 alcohol bottles. 17 But you had talked about green garbage bags 18 that you had gotten that had maps and logs and that kind 19 of thing in it, and that you were keeping in the back of 20 your vehicle? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Now first of all, how many 23 green garbage bags did you have? 24 A: Three (3). 25 Q: Three (3). And had you either gone
1051 through those bags or had someone go through those bags 2 for you? 3 A: Myself and Terry Doxtator. 4 Q: Okay. And you told us yesterday, I 5 think, that included in the material were things like maps 6 and logs? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And can you help us understand a 9 little bit better what kind of maps and logs were there? 10 A: There was maps of -- well, really they 11 even mapped out where they stayed. We had that map. 12 Q: Okay. And when you say, they mapped 13 out where they stayed, what are you talking about? 14 A: Okay. It had the trailer, the command 15 post -- 16 Q: Yes. And by that you mean the trailer 17 that was in the MNR parking lot? 18 A: St. John's Ambulance. 19 Q: Yeah. The five (5) wheel. 20 A: And they had a trail going out to 21 three (3) separate locations like that. 22 Q: They had a? 23 A: Like lines -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- going out to three (3) different
1061 locations. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And that just helped us out lots, you 4 know, to help find their -- 5 Q: And that -- that was the map that was 6 found? 7 A: Yeah. That was one (10 of them. 8 Q: Okay. Now Ben Pouget talked a little 9 bit in his evidence about seeing something on a piece of 10 paper that looked like a semi-circle with three (3) 11 squares or three (3) different areas marked from that. 12 Is that what you're talking about? That 13 you saw? 14 A: Not that -- well, I saw that but I 15 mean the one I had was, the trailer was on it. 16 Q: There was a clear picture of a 17 trailer? 18 A: No. Well, you know, like a drawing. 19 Q: A drawing, okay. 20 A: And then three (3) lines like that. 21 Q: Okay. So that was one of the maps? 22 A: That was not what Ben described. Ben 23 described a half moon with three (3) X's. 24 Q: Yeah. No, he described something 25 different.
1071 A: Yeah. 2 Q: So there was a map of that. Were 3 there other maps that you can recall? 4 A: Yes. There was maps of the roadway. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: There was maps where the garbage bin 7 was, the bus, so they were recent maps. There was maps on 8 -- from the trailer to the Park, the road. It had the map 9 of the outside of the territory -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- Highway -- Army Camp Road right to 12 21 and 21 right to Outer Drive, it had that. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But they were pretty -- lots, there 15 was lots of them. There were more than one (1) so they 16 must have handed some out like that. 17 Q: Okay. Can you give us some idea about 18 how many maps there would have been in your three (3) 19 garbage bags? Would there have been like fifty (50) -- 20 A: No, I don't know. 21 Q: -- or a hundred (100) or twenty (20)? 22 A: I can't say, I can't say. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I don't want to say a number and then 25 you find out --
1081 Q: No, no, I understand -- 2 A: -- there was more than that and -- 3 Q: -- that, I'm just trying to get a 4 sense of -- 5 A: No, I don't know then, no. 6 Q: Quite a few, is that fair enough? 7 A: There was enough to catch my attention 8 for sure. 9 Q: Okay. And then in terms of logs, what 10 kinds of logs were in your three (3) garbage bags? 11 A: It was entries of who come on duty, 12 Area A, clear; B, clear; C, clear; D, clear. Different 13 time entry -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Car went by -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Stuff like that. 18 Q: Okay. And was there one (1) log or 19 was there more than one (1) log? 20 A: It was one (1) log. 21 Q: Okay. And were there a lot of pages 22 in the log? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. So you've told us about a 25 number of maps in a log with a number of pages in it.
1091 What else was in the three (3) garbage bags that you can 2 recall? 3 A: Garbage. 4 Q: Garbage? 5 A: Yeah, one (1) was -- yeah, garbage. 6 And there was gauze with blood on it. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And I figured -- 9 Q: One (1) -- one (1) gauze square with 10 blood on it? 11 A: Yeah, yeah. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But you don't want to hear what I 14 thought, no? 15 Q: Sure, tell us. 16 A: Okay, I thought that there wasn't 17 enough blood for them to care for Slippery, for it to be 18 Slippery's blood. I thought maybe it was one (1) of their 19 own and they were cleaning themselves up and they had 20 cleaned themselves up and put it in the bag and zip locked 21 it, because it was in a zip lock -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: So when I handed it over to SIU, I 24 said I think this belonged to the OPP and they just said, 25 Good, we got the best scientists in the world and --
1101 Q: Okay. 2 A: -- so on. 3 Q: And do you know if that gauze square 4 with blood on it had come from the trailer, the MNR 5 trailer, or was it found somewhere else? 6 A: Trailer. 7 Q: In the trailer itself? Okay, and were 8 there other things of note in the three (3) green garbage 9 bags? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No, that was essentially it? The 12 maps -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- the logs and the gauze square in a 15 zip lock bag? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And then you told us that you 18 had a phone bill, the phone bill that you had obtained, 19 that had the blanked out or white-out sections in it? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Your -- 22 A: Oh, yeah, my own, yeah. 23 Q: Your own phone bill. 24 A: But that wasn't in the police -- 25 Q: Okay. And then there were casing and
1111 you told us yesterday that there were 9mm's, .223's, 2 .38's, .45's, and .240's? 3 A: That I knew of. 4 Q: Pardon me? 5 A: That I knew of? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And I wanted to find out if I 9 could, how many casings you had, or you or others had 10 collected or people had handed to you, because I take it 11 at the end of the day, you were the ultimate person to 12 receive this evidence, because you were the person who 13 would be handing it over? 14 Is that fair? 15 A: That's fair. 16 Q: People knew that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: They knew to give things to you, so it 19 could be handed over? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. So, in terms of casings or 22 shells or material related to ammunition, can you tell us 23 today how many ultimately of that kind of material you 24 ended up with, before you were ready to hand it over to 25 the SIU?
1121 A: No. 2 Q: No? Do you have any idea? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. You told us yesterday that, I 5 think there's a period of maybe four (4) or five (5) days 6 and perhaps after, where people would be handing you in 7 that kind of material? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You said some days you would get two 10 (2) or three (3) and some days you could get twenty (20) 11 or so? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: So, I take it at the end of the -- at 14 the end of the period of time that people were handing 15 ammunition or casings into you that you would have quite a 16 lot? 17 A: I would have had at least twenty-five 18 (25). 19 Q: At least twenty-five (25)? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Now, Ben Pouget, in his 22 evidence before here, had said that at one (1) point in 23 time he had forty-three (43) spent shells in his hand and 24 those forty-three (43) spent shells that was in his hand 25 would have been handed over to you; do recall that?
1131 A: I recall him saying that. 2 Q: But the question I had, though, is do 3 you recall getting forty-three (43) spent shells? 4 A: Not right now, no -- 5 Q: No? 6 A: -- but you're going to have to think, 7 you know, like, I'm telling the truth and about forty- 8 three (43) shells in one (1) person's hand, gees, you 9 know, that would be a big hand. No, I don't remember. 10 Q: Okay. Now, can you help us out at all 11 with who gave you shells or casings or other ammunition- 12 related material? 13 A: No, not really -- 14 Q: Where that came from? 15 A: -- I lost the papers. 16 Q: Okay. And can you help us -- us out 17 at all with where the material would have come from, that 18 is the ammunition or casings? Did you -- did people tell 19 you or did you keep any kind of a record or do you recall? 20 A: Yes, I kept a record, but lost it. 21 Q: You kept a record? Okay. And tell us 22 about the record that you kept. 23 A: I just kept whose name it was and how 24 many they gave me and where they found it. 25 Q: Okay. And was that something that you
1141 handed over to the SIU? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No? 4 A: No, I lost it. 5 Q: Did you lose it before you met with 6 the SIU? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And you've told us, moving on 9 to another subject, you've told us that there shields and 10 radios and batons and other kinds of other equipment like 11 that that were collected? 12 A: Parts. 13 Q: Parts of them, yeah? And you've told 14 us about the garbage bag full of bottles; yes? 15 A: The garbage bag with bottles in it. 16 Q: Yeah, and then there would have been 17 the licence plate numbers from the vans that had been -- 18 A: The SIU never got that. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: The SIU never got those numbers. 21 Q: The SIU never got the numbers, the 22 licence plate numbers? 23 A: No, no. 24 Q: Okay. You just told them about the 25 licence plates.
1151 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the vans, but you never actually 3 gave them the numbers? 4 A: They wouldn't -- I gave it to the 5 Anishnaabeg police -- 6 Q: Right, yeah. 7 A: -- that night. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: They come back and said they were 10 unattainable and that was the end of that. 11 Q: Okay. And so what you did then, was 12 you told the SIU about the vans -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and the licence plates, but you 15 didn't give them the number? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Now, was there anything that I 18 missed, or anything that you recall further about evidence 19 that was gathered in the First Nations investigation in 20 the first week or so after you got to the Park? 21 A: No, you -- you done a good job. 22 Q: Okay. And, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, this 23 morning took you through a meeting with the SIU, now, I've 24 just got to find it in my book. 25 A: I think it's eleven (11) or twelve
1161 (12) or something. 2 Q: Yeah, yeah, it was twelve (12), you're 3 right about that and I think that you agreed with Ms. 4 Tuck-Jackson that likely the first time that you met with 5 the SIU was on September the 19th, 1995. 6 And if you want to go in the binder that 7 you've got, and look at Tab 12, which is Inquiry Document 8 Number 1001791, and you look at page 8 of 15 -- 9 A: Yeah, I got it. 10 Q: -- that was the section that she took 11 to the entry dated 1610 hours and I think you agreed with 12 her that would have been the first meeting that you had 13 with the SIU? 14 Q: No? You met with the SIU before then? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. When did you meet with the SIU 17 before September the 19th? 18 A: It would have been the 18th. 19 Q: You met with the SIU on September 20 18th. Okay. And then you met again on September 19th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And if I've missed this, Mr. 23 Elijah, you'll have to forgive my slowness, but who did 24 you meet with on the 18th? 25 A: Jim Kennedy.
1171 Q: Jim Kennedy. And you met with him 2 alone? 3 A: Alone. Oh, myself and Gabe. 4 Q: You, Gabe and Jim Kennedy met -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- on the 18th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And you had met on Army Camp 9 Road? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No? Where? 12 A: East Parkway. 13 Q: East Parkway. Okay. And did you meet 14 with Mr. Kennedy for -- first of all, how did it end up 15 that you and Mr. Doxtator met with Jim Kennedy on the 16 18th? 17 Who arranged that? Do you recall? 18 A: I can't remember if it was Marvin 19 Connors or who it was. But somebody -- 20 Q: Somebody had set it up? 21 A: -- arranged it, yes. 22 Q: Okay. And did you talk with Jim for 23 some time or was it pretty short? 24 A: It was pretty short because -- 25 Q: Pretty short.
1181 A: -- because we weren't supposed to be 2 seen together at this time. 3 Q: Okay. And why weren't you supposed to 4 be seen together at this time? 5 A: They were scared of a lawsuit. 6 Q: Oh. This is the -- the ninety (90) 7 days that you were talking about -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- yesterday? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That you told us the SIU told you that 12 they couldn't gather any evidence for ninety (90) days -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- or they'd be sued. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay, and you heard that from Jim 17 Kennedy? 18 A: From someone. I -- 19 Q: From someone? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And Jim Kennedy, did he confirm that 22 for you that he wasn't supposed to be meeting with you 23 because of that lawsuit or potential? 24 Did you guys have a chat about that? 25 A: We had a chat.
1191 Q: Did you -- did you talk -- 2 A: No, no. 3 Q: -- to him about that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Did you get it confirmed by Jim 6 Kennedy or any of the other SIU investigators that they -- 7 that they were afraid to meet with you because of this 8 lawsuit or this threatened lawsuit? 9 Did they tell you that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And just so it's clear, when -- 12 who told you that? 13 A: Gees, I hate to put him on the spot, 14 you know. 15 Q: Go ahead. Go ahead. Let us know what 16 happened. 17 A: It was probably Jim Kennedy. 18 Q: Jim Kennedy again. Okay. 19 Now I -- we went back and we talked about 20 when you had formal interviews with the SIU. And I think 21 we agreed that you never were formally interviewed by the 22 SIU during the period September 7th to October 15th; that 23 is in the first couple of months -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- that you were there? Okay. Over
1201 that period of time though in that couple months, you met, 2 I take it, on a number of occasions with Jim Kennedy or 3 other SIU investigators? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I take it that you had a 6 relationship with them. And you've told us how you 7 trusted them? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you've also told us that you 10 wanted to further their investigation and pass over the 11 evidence to them? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yeah, okay. Now there is a document 14 in the document database that we have and it's Inquiry 15 Document Number 100182. And it is a report from the 16 Special Investigations Unit and it is dated October 31st, 17 1995 or it was submitted by Don Miller on October 31st, 18 1995. 19 And what this document speaks to is it 20 talks about a meeting that occurred on October 24th, 1995 21 when you handed over evidence to the SIU. And I'm 22 wondering if we could get that put up? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1211 Q: Oh, maybe there is. 1001822. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And what I wanted to do here, Mr. 6 Elijah, was take you through this and see if you agree 7 with the contents of this document, if it accords with 8 your recollection; and if it doesn't, what you would say 9 is different. 10 Can you -- can you read what's on the 11 screen there, Mr. Elijah? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yeah? Okay, I'm sorry if that's 14 uncomfortable for you. 15 So it talks about a meeting on October 24th 16 with the writer in the company of investigators, Allen and 17 Wilson, attending Camp Ipperwash, and at 12:30 we met with 18 lawyer Colin. 19 And it says, "Crown" but at later on it 20 says "Brown", with -- I think it should be Colin Brown, 21 and Layton Elijah who was co-ordinating exhibits. 22 And do you recall that meeting with two (2) 23 -- three (3) of the SIU investigators and Colin Brown? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yeah? Okay, and it says the exhibits
1221 were turned over to the writer and at this time an SIU 2 exhibit collection report was completed for each exhibit. 3 And it says a copy of the form had been 4 given both to you and to Colin Brown on October the 12th, 5 1995. 6 Do you recall getting that form from the 7 SIU before you handed over the evidence? 8 A: I don't know. I don't know, I -- I 9 don't know. 10 Q: You don't remember? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Now, it talks about some of the 13 evidence that was turned over to the SIU, but it says you 14 could only supply the finders of three (3) of the exhibits 15 and it says that you would get the finders names later. 16 Do you recall having a conversation with 17 the SIU investigators about trying to find out who had 18 obtained certain of the evidence and where it came from? 19 A: Yes, yes. 20 Q: Yeah, okay. And it goes on, and if we 21 can just move a little bit down the list here. It looks 22 like it lists all of the evidence that you handed over to 23 the SIU and I just wanted to go through and see if this 24 accorded with your recollection. 25 And first of all, I'm -- I'm not going to
1231 deal with the first item which is Exhibit 701, because 2 that was found by investigator Miller, it says, so it's 3 not something that apparently came from you. 4 And then it goes on to Exhibit 702, which 5 is documents found near the command post of the St. John's 6 Ambulance vehicle on the 8th of September. 7 And would that be the maps and the log and 8 that -- that was from your garbage bags? 9 A: I don't know. I can't remember. 10 Q: You can't remember what -- 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- that was? 13 A: No. 14 Q: What you handed over? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you recall whether or not you 17 handed over all of the maps and the log? All of the, sort 18 of, material that you thought was valuable, if you handed 19 that all over to the SIU? 20 A: I would think so. 21 Q: Okay. And then it goes on to talk 22 about Exhibit 703, a .223 brass casing. Do you -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- remember handing that over? 25 A: Yeah.
1241 Q: Okay. And Exhibit 704, a .40 calibre 2 Winchester brass casing, yeah? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And then if we flip over to the next 5 page, there's another .40 calibre Winchester brass casing, 6 do you recall that? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And then Exhibit 706, a 9mm Luger 9 brass casing and lead slug, do you recall that? Okay, and 10 then we go on 707 which is -- it looks like two (2) 9mm 11 Luger brass casings in a copper jacket fragment, yes? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you recall that? And 708, Exhibit 14 708 is a gauze pad found at scene. And does that refer to 15 the gauze pad with blood on it -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- that you said was in the zip lock? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And then we go on to Exhibit 20 709 which is a watch that said "Found at the scene by Alan 21 George on September the 7th". 22 Do you recall that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. Going on to Exhibit 710, 25 plastic shield piece. I take it that was one (1) of the
1251 pieces that you had talked about earlier? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And Exhibit 711 is six (6) 4 various liquor bottles in a bag and it says: 5 "Found and collected at the scene by 6 [question mark], date unknown." 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you have any other information 9 that you could provide to the SIU about when those bottles 10 had been collected or who collected them; did you know? 11 A: They were collected on -- on the 10th 12 or the 11th of September, 1995. 13 Q: Okay. Then we go on to Exhibit 712: 14 "Two (2) empty boxes of Claritin found 15 at the scene by [question mark], date 16 unknown." 17 And then, lastly, we go to Exhibit 713, 18 which is a 9mm FC Luger brass casing found on the north 19 side of East Parkway Drive in front of the empty billboard 20 on the evening of September 6th, 1995 by Isaac Doxtator. 21 Now, Mr. Elijah, when I looked through that 22 list, it seemed to me that at the very least, not all of 23 the casings or ammunition or shells or that kind of 24 related material that was collected got handed over to the 25 SIU.
1261 Can you help us whether or not that's the 2 case? 3 A: That's probably the case on that day. 4 Q: And can you tell us why -- 5 A: No, I can't tell you why. 6 Q: -- you wouldn't have handed it over to 7 the SIU? 8 A: If I didn't have it. 9 Q: I'm sorry? 10 A: If I didn't have it. 11 Q: Okay. But you've told us about the 12 period of time after you got to the Park, people handing 13 you ammunition casings and ammunition-related material and 14 you've talked about some days there would be twenty (20)-- 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: -- or two (2) or three (3), quite a 17 volume. 18 A: That's twenty-five (25). I said 19 twenty-five (25). 20 Q: Yeah, so where are the rest of -- 21 where's the rest of the ammunition or casings? 22 A: I do not know. 23 Q: Okay. Did you know as of October 24 24th, 1995 when you met with the SIU that you weren't 25 giving them all of the evidence that had been collected by
1271 the First Nations investigators? 2 A: I knew there were some missing. 3 Q: Okay. And did you talk to the SIU 4 about that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you tell them there were some 7 missing? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you tell them that this was all 10 the evidence that had been collected? 11 A: No, we were going to meet again. 12 Q: Okay. Can you help us in 13 understanding where the rest of the evidence went? 14 A: No. If I knew, I would have known. 15 Q: Okay. So, I take it when -- I just 16 wanted to walk through the -- sort of evidentiary pathway. 17 I take it that when people found evidence, 18 they passed it onto you? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And you would have kept it in safe 21 keeping? 22 A: As safe as I could. 23 Q: Okay. And that that process of people 24 gathering evidence and giving it to you happened over a 25 period of at least a couple of weeks and maybe more?
1281 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And so, can you explain to us 3 where the evidence went or what happened or when some of 4 the evidence went missing? 5 A: No, I didn't know. 6 Q: You have no idea at all? 7 A: No, I have no idea. 8 Q: At all? 9 A: If I had known, I would know. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But I don't know. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But everything I told you is there 14 except the number didn't reach twenty-five (25), I'm 15 sorry. It's misplaced or something; somebody took it. 16 Q: Something happened to it? 17 A: Something happened. 18 Q: Something happened? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. And I think that you 21 told Ms. Vella yesterday that when you handed evidence 22 over to the SIU that that handover was videotaped by the 23 Goldi's; do you remember that? 24 A: I thought it was. Yeah, I remember 25 saying that.
1291 Q: Okay 2 A: I know somebody did, but I don't know 3 who had the camera. 4 Q: Okay. So, is it -- have you changed 5 your position a bit, because you sounded -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- pretty certain yesterday that both 8 Goldi's were there? 9 A: Okay, I'll still say, "Goldi's," 10 because they had a camera. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: But it could have been the SIU taping 13 it. 14 Q: Okay. But from your recollection -- 15 A: Somebody taped it. 16 Q: No, no. I just want to -- I just want 17 to see what you have to say about the Goldi's, because 18 yesterday you sounded very certain that both Goldi's were 19 there taping. And today I hear you say somebody taped. 20 A: Yeah. Somebody taped -- 21 Q: Do you recall -- 22 A: -- I think it was the Goldi's. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: They taped so much stuff, I don't know 25 which --
1301 Q: You don't know one (1) way or other. 2 A: They were there. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: They were there. 5 Q: Okay. Because I look at the listing 6 on the first page of this document and it doesn't appear 7 as though anyone else was present at this handover of 8 evidence except the SIU, Colin Brown and yourself. 9 A: Well, then there's a different -- 10 there's a different handover again too. 11 Q: There was another handover? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Now can you tell us when that 14 other handover took place? 15 A: I thought it was winter because it was 16 cold and snowing unless it was that day. 17 Q: Okay. And what -- what do you think 18 happened on the second handover? And one (1) of the 19 things for this handover of evidence, there's an SIU 20 document that I can refer you to and walk you through and 21 see if it accords with your recollection. 22 But I can tell you from what I've been able 23 to find, there is no SIU report that talks about a 24 handover of evidence during -- after this or during the 25 winter of 1996. So if you have a recollection of
1311 something, you're going to have to tell us what you 2 remember? 3 A: Okay. I'll say nothing then. 4 Q: Do you remember handing over evidence 5 to the SIU after October 24th, 1995, later in the fall or 6 in the winter of 1996? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You don't remember anything? 9 A: Because I can't prove it now the way 10 you're talking. But I'm positive. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: No. Just leave it simple. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Well, there -- there's just -- just to 17 be clear here, Mr. Elijah, that it's helpful for the 18 Commission to look at documents and hear what witnesses 19 have to say about documents. And it's also helpful for 20 the Commission to hear what people recall. The 21 Commissioner gets evidence from both sources. 22 So if you have a recollection about handing 23 over evidence to the SIU in later in the fall of 1995 or 24 the winter of 1995, '96, if you can tell us that would be 25 helpful?
1321 A: I handed over a tire? 2 Q: I'm sorry? 3 A: A tire, will that help? 4 Q: The tire? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. There actually is a report of 7 the handing over the tire but it was later on. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: That -- that was -- okay. From your 10 recollection then, but for the .38 casings that you 11 provided to the SIU in August of 2996, was this the only 12 occasion that you handed ammunition or spent shells or 13 casings to the SIU? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't want 17 to interrupt you, Ms. Jones, you estimated a hour to 18 forty-five (45) minutes, you've passed an hour now. How 19 much longer do you think you might be? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm very close to being 21 done, Mr. Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then 23 let's continue. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: And I -- I apologize for 25 taking --
1331 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine 2 carry on. 3 MS. KAREN JONES: -- for taking longer 4 than I had said. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just carry 6 on. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, yeah. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 10 Q: And I wanted then to move onto August 11 of 1996 and just -- you had told Ms. Vella a little bit 12 about the circumstances when the three (3) .38 -- my 13 language is not good here -- shells or casings were found. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And first of all, I understand from 16 looking at the documents that this was a -- in or around 17 this time was when you had a -- one (1) of at least, the 18 formal interviews with the SIU. 19 And if you open up your binder and you turn 20 to Tab 4, you'll see a document, hopefully, that is 21 Inquiry Document Number 1002301. And it says: 22 "Anticipated Evidence of Layton Harley 23 Elijah." 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yeah.
1341 Q: And it refers to an interview of 2 August 12th, 1996, okay? Now, do you remember sitting 3 down with Inspector -- see we got Kennedy; on that day? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Okay. Now have you had -- I know that 6 you've got that -- have had that binder and for you and 7 the Commissioner -- the Commission had given it to you. 8 Have you had a chance to look at that 9 document and have you had chance to review it at all? 10 A: I just go through it as you guys talk. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: I just go through it as you guys talk. 13 Q: Okay. Have you read it -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- through and through before? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Some of the statements that we 18 see that are like this have been signed by different 19 people. And I don't -- I couldn't find a document with a 20 signature on it, so I -- it's not clear to me if -- it 21 wasn't clear to me if it was something that you had 22 reviewed before. But I just -- if you can turn to the -- 23 I guess it's the two (2) -- fourth page. Oh, sorry, let 24 me -- let me just go back here a little bit. 25 If we go to the second page of this -- of
1351 the document, and if we can just go through this page 2 you'll see that there's a question about the 3 circumstances. You'll see the fourth point down under 4 "Kennedy", can you for the record, describe the 5 circumstances in which you found these casings? 6 And there's a paragraph from you saying: 7 "We were cleaning up the site here, 8 because it was vandalized and upon 9 clearing it up, one (1) of the guys was 10 swatting mosquitos and his earring fell 11 off." 12 Is that accurate? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I take it that was Buck Doxtator-- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- whose earring fell off when he was 17 swatting at mosquitos? 18 And you say: 19 "It's a silver turtle and we all pitched 20 in and looked for the silver turtle, 21 looking for anything silver and we 22 uncovered one (1) shell, a .38 special 23 and after that we searched the area a 24 little better with rakes and we under -- 25 uncovered two (2) more in a three (3)
1361 foot circumference, all of the .38 2 specials, but of different -- there's 3 two (2) of one (1) kind and one (1) of 4 another kind." 5 And does that describe what happened when 6 you were there, that is, at or around the site of Dudley's 7 arbour and were looking for Buck Doxtator's -- 8 A: Pretty well. 9 Q: -- earring? Pretty much? Was there 10 anything that you wanted to add to that? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And if you go on to -- and if 13 you need to take time to read more, you ought to. 14 A: No, no, go ahead, no, no. 15 Q: I'm just going to skip through, but 16 you let me know if you want -- if you flip over two (2) 17 more pages, at the top you'll see under "Kennedy": 18 "During the discussion you mentioned you 19 had a theory as to how those shell 20 casings may have got there. Can you 21 elaborate on that?" 22 Have you found that? 23 A: On page 2301? 24 Q: At the bottom of the page it should 25 say "4", at the very bottom of the page.
1371 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: 684? 5 Q: No, the bottom of the page it should 6 just say "Page Number 4." Each -- each of these -- the 7 pages of this transcript are numbered at the bottom and 8 you'll -- 9 A: Okay, okay. 10 Q: -- just see a "4" at the bottom. 11 A: Yeah, okay. 12 Q: Okay? So you see where I was looking 13 at up top where it talks about Kennedy? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And then it goes "Elijah", and it 16 talks about this -- your theory about how the shell 17 casings got there. 18 And can -- do you -- do you recall that you 19 had a theory at the time -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- about how the shell casings got 22 there? And can you tell us what your theory was? 23 A: I thought it was the shells that -- 24 that shot Nicholas Cotrelle. 25 Q: Okay. If we go back to the paragraph
1381 that says "Elijah", it talks there about: 2 "That you've been following the matter 3 and when it came to court, that is 4 Bernard's trial, an officer named 5 Lacroix offered evidence saying he fired 6 four (4) shots, two (2) in the bus door 7 and two (2) in the car door. 8 And when I read that and heard that, I 9 called it a lie because it's impossible 10 to shoot the door the car without going 11 through the bus or vice versa." 12 And was that the basis of your theory -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- that your view was that Lacroix was 15 lying? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And so your view was, because he was 18 lying there must have been something else going on, 19 something else that happened? 20 A: Something else had happened. 21 Q: Okay, and I take it if you recall, 22 that in or around this time, that is of August 1996, that 23 people were preparing for more trials? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: One (1) of the trials that people were
1391 preparing for was Ken Deane's trial. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I take it, in your view, that it 4 would be important to check out a theory? 5 A: Okay, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. 6 Q: Okay. And I take it, according to 7 your theory of what must have happened with Wade Lacroix, 8 there ought to be -- to fit into your theory, there ought 9 to have been thirty-eight (38) shells, in or about a 10 certain area. 11 That would -- if that was true, that 12 would help support your theory? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that would be good evidence from 15 your perspective. 16 A: For me. 17 Q: Yeah. And for other people -- 18 A: For whoever. 19 Q: -- in your group and for other Stoney 20 Pointers, that would be important? 21 A: Well, the way it was said, yes. If 22 you can go back to what you said, now, and let me ask you. 23 Where I called it a lie, was he said he shot two (2) in 24 the door of the bus and two (2) in the door of the car; 25 that's impossible.
1401 Q: In your view it's impossible? 2 A: In anybody's view, because the bus, is 3 the door is on the right-hand side and the car door is on 4 the left-hand side. Unless he was standing right dead 5 centre between the bus and the car and shot two (2) times 6 this way and then turned around and shot two (2) times 7 this way, it could have never, ever been happening unless 8 he shot through the car and into the bus or vice versa. 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: That -- that's why it caught my 11 attention. 12 Q: That -- that was -- that was your 13 theory? 14 A: That's -- that's it. 15 Q: Okay. Now, you had told us -- or told 16 Ms. Vella earlier that as the head of security you would 17 have been one (1) of the people that was associated with, 18 or took part in, or was responsible for some of the people 19 who took part in the joint investigation in September of 20 1995. 21 We've heard that there was an investigation 22 on the 18th and 19th that included both OPP and First 23 Nations people; is that right? 24 A: Yeah, that happened. 25 Q: Yeah, and did you take part in that
1411 investigation at all? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you get reports from people who 4 took part in the investigation? 5 A: Oh, yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And did you see the final 7 investigation report that was put out? 8 A: No, not really, it just -- no. 9 Q: Okay. And I take it that you 10 would have received information from the people who took 11 part in that investigation about the areas and the sites 12 that they investigated? 13 A: Yeah, I know where they done it. 14 Q: Pardon me. 15 A: I know -- I know where they done it. 16 Q: Okay. And I take it, for example, 17 that you knew that the joint investigation included 18 looking carefully in and around the area of Dudley 19 George's memorial, the arbour? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You didn't know that? 22 A: It never happened. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: It never happened. 25 Q: You're saying that there was no
1421 investigation done? 2 A: No. 3 Q: By the OPP -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- or by the First Nations in or 6 around the area -- 7 A: No, it was off limits. 8 Q: Okay. So, if we hear from some of the 9 OPP investigators that that area was, in fact, 10 investigated and documented, the investigation was 11 documented, you would disagree with that? 12 A: Yes, I would and I think the whole -- 13 Q: And you didn't take part in the 14 investigation? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No? Okay. So, when you were speaking 17 to the SIU, in August of 1996, from your knowledge no one 18 had looked there before? 19 A: To my knowledge. 20 Q: In that area? 21 A: To my knowledge. 22 Q: Okay. And there's an SIU report, Mr. 23 Elijah, that talks about when the -- you turned over the 24 three (3) .38's to the SIU and there's some mention in 25 that document, and I anticipate we'll hear it from the SIU
1431 investigators, that they had some significant doubts or 2 questions about how those .38's came to be in that area, 3 and to come from you. 4 Did they talk to you about their concerns-- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- or about their suspicions? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No? Okay, and Mr. Elijah, is it 9 possible that those .38 shells, the three (3) that were 10 found in or around that area, got there some time after 11 September the 6th, 1995? 12 A: It's possible. 13 Q: Okay. And I've taken up a large 14 amount of your time and the Commission's time, but I just 15 had one (1) more area that I wanted to ask you about. 16 A: Okay, go for it. 17 Q: I know, it doesn't end. 18 Now, you were asked -- you gave some 19 evidence with Ms. Vella and you were asked some questions 20 yesterday about the telephone calls that you said you had 21 with Gabriel Doxtator and Buck Isaac, okay? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the gist of that, as I understand, 24 was that you say that you got three (3) calls over the 25 course of a fairly short period of time.
1441 The first one, you said, was at about ten 2 (10) to 11:00 and you said you spoke to both Gabe and 3 Buck, and Buck said in that that -- in that call they were 4 getting beaten up by the police. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Is that right? 7 A: Yes, that's true. 8 Q: And you said about five (5) minutes 9 later there was a second call from Gabe, and Buck got on 10 the line and said they were shooting real bullets. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you had a discussion with him 13 about his request for help and you hung up on him? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And then you said shortly after that, 16 you got another call from Gabe, saying that they didn't 17 think Dudley was going to make it, and that -- 18 A: I don't know -- I don't know if it was 19 Gabe that said that to me, but that was Dutchy. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: But I did hear that, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Now did you get any telephone 23 calls from Gabriel Doxtator or Buck Isaac before either in 24 the afternoon of -- 25 A: No.
1451 Q: -- September the 6th or the early 2 evening -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- of September the -- 5 A: None whatsoever. 6 Q: -- 6th? Okay. So the first call that 7 you got from either of them, in your recollection, was at 8 ten (10) to 11:00? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: When the police were already there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. Now, you were some -- you were 13 challenged on that yesterday. 14 A: Yes, I was. 15 Q: Okay, and I wanted to make sure that 16 you had an opportunity to hear very clearly what both 17 Gabriel Doxtator and Buck had said about those calls. And 18 it won't take a very long time, but I just wanted to make 19 sure you understood what they said, to see if that changes 20 your recollection at all. 21 And Mr. Doxtator, Isaac Doxtator, was asked 22 on November 25th, 2004, about phone calls that he had 23 made. And starting on page 187, he talked about a call or 24 calls that he made to his girlfriend because he wanted her 25 to know that he was fine, he knew that she'd be worried.
1461 And then there's a question that starts at 2 Page 188, that says: 3 "Q: All right, and did you make any 4 other phone calls that evening before 5 the police marched down? 6 A: I believe I called back to Oneida 7 and it might have been Layton Elijah I 8 phoned and told him that something was 9 probably going to happen, there's police 10 everywhere. There was only a handful of 11 men there and they wanted more guys down 12 there, but they say they can't come, you 13 know? 14 Q: Who said, "they can't come?" 15 A: Layton. 16 Q: Okay, did he give a reason why they 17 couldn't come? 18 A: I can't remember at this right now, 19 but he said they couldn't get there 20 anyways, because of the build-up police, 21 whatever -- whenev -- wherever they got 22 the information. They said they 23 couldn't get there anyways, there was no 24 way, they -- the roads were blocked." 25 And so what you hear there is him saying he
1471 had a conversation with you and about getting more people. 2 And that conversation took place before the police marched 3 down to the Park. 4 A: I never -- I never got that call. 5 Q: You never got that call? 6 A: No. 7 Q: That call didn't happen? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. And then Gabriel Doxtator was 10 asked some questions on November the 30th, 2004. And the 11 -- the initial question that was put to him, which is on 12 page 124 of the transcript, now I'm just saying that 13 because you may want to be checking to make sure I'm 14 saying this right, said: 15 "Q: Had you spoken to Layton Elijah 16 about what role you were to play in the 17 occupation? 18 A: I didn't know I was going. 19 Q: No, but once you're there did you 20 speak to him? 21 A: No, I never. 22 Q: You didn't speak to him in any way? 23 A: I phoned him on September 6th. 24 Q: I see. What was the purpose of 25 calling him on September 6th?
1481 A: To tell him that the police came in 2 and shot Dudley. 3 Q: I see this is after the incident on 4 the September 6th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: But you hadn't spoken to him before 7 that? 8 A: I think we might have phoned before 9 2:00. 10 Q: All right. What was the purpose of 11 the call? 12 A: We were going to try -- try to get 13 some more people down there to support 14 us. 15 Q: I see and the reason, I take it, 16 you phoned Layton Elijah was because he 17 was your War Chief, he would be the one 18 that -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- would send more warriors down? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did he indicate he would do 23 that? 24 A: Well, he said they had to go 25 through the process first of getting
1491 other warriors set up to come down here 2 first. 3 Q: Can you tell what process is that? 4 A: They have a meeting between Clan 5 Mothers and the Chiefs. 6 Q: Hmm hmm? 7 A: To see if their help is needed, 8 they'll send the guys. 9 Q: And was that telephone call on 10 September the 6th or was it earlier? 11 A: It was on the 6th I do believe. 12 Q: Early in the day. 13 A: Yeah. Before we knew that police 14 were coming in." 15 And so when you look at Gabriel's evidence 16 and you look at Buck's evidence, it looks like they are 17 both saying they had a conversation with you prior to -- 18 sorry. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me. My 20 Friend should continue with that transcript. On the same 21 page, on page 126, it says, brief pause: 22 "Q: And you say 'We made the call to 23 Layton Elijah'? Was it you that called 24 or was it one of (1) your fellows? 25 A: I made the call but somebody else
1501 talked. 2 Q: Talked to him? 3 A: Yeah." 4 So according to this evidence, somebody 5 else spoke to Layton Elijah, not Mr. Doxtator. That was 6 the very next paragraph as My Friend stopped, Mr. 7 Commissioner. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 10 Q: Let me, let me -- do you recall prior 11 to -- do you recall receiving any phone calls in the 12 afternoon or in the evening prior to nine o'clock or ten 13 o'clock, for example? 14 A: No. 15 Q: At all? 16 A: No. None at all. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And he come and told me that he told 19 you's that. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And he said he was sorry. 22 Q: Okay. And it also appears from 23 Gabriel Doxtator's evidence that he said he recalled there 24 were two (2) conversations to you, not three (3). And is 25 that possible?
1511 A: That's very possible because we called 2 back too. So maybe he dialled twice. 3 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the reasons that 4 I was asking you about that, Mr. Elijah, is because one 5 (1) of the documents that the Commission has circulated is 6 the Inquiry Document Number 3000150. And it is a listing 7 of telephone charges that were placed from the Ipperwash 8 Park store. 9 And what I'd like to do is hand a copy of 10 this up to you and I have one (1) for the Commissioner. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And if you look on the second page of 15 that bill, on -- in the middle block, you'll see that the 16 dates starting on the far left hand side, you'll see 17 Number 77. You see the block I'm looking at? 18 A: 77? 19 Q: Yeah, on the far left. It says 20 "Number 77" and then the date is 9/06 and the time. 21 A: Okay, yeah. 22 Q: You're following along there? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: If you go down to 80 -- it looks like 25 82 or 83, you'll see that at 23:10 there was a call placed
1521 to Lambeth, Ontario and it looked to me as though that is 2 your number; is that right? 3 A: Yes, it -- 4 Q: Do you see that? 5 A: -- is, yeah. 6 Q: Okay. And that is the only time in 7 this phone record that your phone number appears. So, 8 when -- 9 A: It's only one (1) minute, so nobody 10 was home. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: Nobody was home, it's only one (1) 13 minute. There no -- I never got no calls. 14 Q: You never got a call from Ipperwash 15 Park at -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- or about 23:10? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. Now, you've told us that in or 22 around that time, you remember getting calls from -- 23 you've told us there were three (3) calls from Gabriel and 24 Buck in a fairly short period, or Gabriel and -- 25 A: Yeah, that was around --
1531 Q: -- Larry French? 2 A: -- eleven o'clock, yeah. 3 Q: And it was around that time? 4 A: Around 11:00, not 10:00, not 9:00, not 5 8:00; 11:00. 6 Q: Right, which -- which is 23:10, that's 7 11:10 in the twenty-four (24) hour clock. 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And I'm just wanting to ask 10 you: Is it possible that, in fact, Gabriel was right when 11 he said that he called you once after the shooting and 12 told you that there had -- that there had been a shot and 13 that was -- that was that call? 14 A: At 23:10? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And again, on the twenty-four (24) 20 hour clock, that would be ten (10) after 11:00 at night. 21 A: Yeah, I don't see my number on there. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Do you? 24 Q: If, again -- if you look at -- 25 A: Oh, just wait, just wait. I'm on the
1541 wrong page. 2 Q: Oh, well, no wonder you're having a 3 problem. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: That's my number, yeah. 8 Q: Yeah. And so I'm just asking you, is 9 it possible that Gabriel's evidence was accurate when he 10 said he called and spoke to you, once, after the shooting? 11 A: Once after the shooting? 12 Q: Yeah, once. 13 A: Well, yeah. 14 Q: And is it possible that it was at or 15 about ten (10) minutes after 11:00? 16 A: It's real close. 17 Q: Yeah? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, could I have 20 this document made the next Exhibit, and that is the two 21 (2) pages from the bill from HurOntario Telephones 22 Limited? 23 And I have a clean copy. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-329, your Honour. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.
1551 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-329: Document 3000150 Hurontario 4 telephones Ltd. Long distance 5 billing log identifying 6 "native use" Document date 7 1995-08-17 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 10 Q: And, Mr. Elijah, those are all my 11 questions. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: I'm sorry, Mr. 13 Commissioner, to have taken up so much more time than I 14 anticipated. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 16 Ms. Jones. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you very much. 18 THE WITNESS: Can I say one (1) thing 19 about this? 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 21 THE WITNESS: If we talked that much, it 22 would have been longer than a minute. We talked about 23 five (5) minutes. It says a minute here. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's all.
1561 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 3 Ms. Jones. 4 Do you have any questions, Mr. Scullion...? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I didn't think I was 9 going to have any questions, but I'm just trying to sort 10 out one (1) thing with Commission Counsel. And I 11 understand that, perhaps, we'd be best able to address 12 that just after a lunch break. I note that it's -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'd 14 like to do that now, if we could. Is that possible, we 15 can do it now? 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm going to have some 17 re-examination but I do have to check on something in the 18 document base and, therefore, would request the lunch 19 break. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine, let's 24 break for lunch. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands
1571 adjourned until 1:35. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 12:21 p.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 1:46 p.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 I just want to apologize for the delay. Our copy machine 10 was playing games on us in there and so we had to take a 11 few minutes longer. I'm sorry. 12 Yes, Mr. Scullion? 13 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I can advise that I 14 think I'll be quite brief, Mr. Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Elijah. 18 A: Good afternoon, sibowee (phonetic). 19 Q: When Ms. Jones was finishing off her 20 questioning, I heard you add a comment regarding the 21 telephone call being longer in your memory than the one 22 (1) minute that seems to be cited on the phone bill. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: How long did you think that that 25 phone call was?
1581 A: That's the phone call where I talked 2 to three (3) different parties. 3 Q: So it was in excess of one (1) 4 minute? 5 A: Oh, yes. For sure. 6 Q: Did I hear you correctly you thought 7 it was about four (4) or five (5) minutes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. So it's very likely that 10 that phone call that you're remembering occurring at that 11 time is different from the one that's cited on the phone 12 bill? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: All right. Could -- do you recall if 15 the phone call that you're referring to that lasted four 16 (4) or five (5) minutes, do you recall whether that was a 17 direct call to you or whether it might have been one of 18 the collect calls? 19 A: It was a collect call. 20 Q: It was, okay. Secondly, you were 21 referred to a call that was made about 3:10 in the 22 afternoon on September 6th. 23 And I understand that you've had a chance 24 to take a look at the phone bill that was provided to you 25 and you had a correction or a comment to make regarding
1591 that particular call? 2 A: Yes, I do. I looked at it and I 3 recognized the phone numbers as Ted Doxtator; that's 4 where Isaac and Gabe quite frequent, that's their friend 5 or relation; that's around the same time so I think there 6 was just a simple mistake that they made. I never made 7 no mistakes. 8 Q: All right. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: The document that's 10 being referred to, Mr. Commissioner, is the phone bill I 11 understand is Inquiry Document 3000150 from the Park 12 store. And the call that was being discussed took place 13 in or about three o'clock in the afternoon. It's just 14 been clarified. 15 THE WITNESS: And -- and may I add that 16 there was two (2) telephones. 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: That's Exhibit P- 18 329? 19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Okay. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION. 23 Q: Sorry, you just indicated that -- 24 A: There was two (2) telephones because 25 I was given two (2) telephone numbers to call back.
1601 Q: Okay. You recall that there were two 2 (2) working phones in the Park -- 3 A: There was two (2) working telephones. 4 Q: -- right about that time? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And then lastly, there was 7 some discussion with Ms. Jones regarding shells and a 8 meeting that you had in '95, in about October '95 and 9 then there was some discussion about how all the shells 10 weren't turned over at that point in time. 11 Do you remember that discussion? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And I anticipate we're 14 going to have evidence later in the Inquiry regarding a 15 further meeting that took place with the SIU in which 16 further shells were turned over, and that Colin Brown, 17 counsel, was present at that turnover of shells. 18 Do you recall whether or not you were 19 present when that turnover of shells took place to the 20 SIU? 21 A: I'm positive I was, but I can't make 22 sure because I remember when she mentioned the names, 23 that when I handed stuff over there was more names. 24 There was more people in that room. 25 Q: Okay. You recall more people being
1611 in the room when -- 2 A: Yes, I do. 3 Q: -- the turnover occurred? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you recall Mr. Brown being there 6 at that time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And you recall being 9 there when that took place? 10 A: Yes. 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: All right. Those 12 are all my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much, Mr. Scullion. 15 I just want to make sure I've got the 16 right exhibit. Is it P-329, did you say or 325? 17 THE REGISTRAR: 229 is our last exhibit, 18 Your Honour, before. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 Yes, Ms. Vella...? 21 22 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Just a couple of questions, Mr. 24 Elijah. You indicated yesterday in cross-examination or 25 in -- in examination-in-chief that the meeting at the
1621 Park on December the 3rd, the winterization process that 2 you thought that that commenced at about, I believe you 3 said 9:30 a.m.? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I'd like you to go to -- is it 6 possible that you're mistaken in that time? 7 A: I could be by a little bit, but it 8 was in the morning. 9 Q: I'd like you to go to Tab 8 of your 10 brief of documents? 11 A: Tab 8? 12 Q: It's Inquiry Document Number 2001401 13 and it's a note that appears to be authored by an 14 individual named -- named, "Mike" who I believe is Mike 15 Hudson. It indicates that they -- they, the police, 16 entered the Park at 8:26 a.m. on December the 3rd and 17 that -- with the MNR, Peacekeepers and Stoney Point 18 Occupiers present. It also indicates that the entire 19 Park was videotaped and that you requested a copy of this 20 tape. 21 Is it possible that this meeting started 22 at approximately 8:30 a.m. 23 A: Yes, it could have, yeah. 24 Q: Thank you. You also testified 25 yesterday that the last time you had a one-on-one visit
1631 or session with Les Kobayashi was December the 3rd '95. 2 Do you recall having any meetings at 3 which Les Kobayashi was present subsequently to December 4 3rd '95? 5 A: No. 6 Q: It is possible that you're mistaken 7 in that? 8 A: What's that, that somebody was 9 present with us? 10 Q: Yeah. No, no, that there was -- you 11 had a meeting -- attended a meeting at which Les 12 Kobayashi was present and others were present subsequent 13 to December the 3rd? 14 A: Yeah, yeah, we were at our meeting at 15 Kettle Point, I believe. 16 Q: All right. And would you kindly go 17 to Tab 3? Sorry, Tab 9. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Not Tab 9, excuse me. I was right 20 the first time, Tab 3, Inquiry Document Number 2000330 21 entitled: "First Draft Kettle Point Police Service 22 Special Meeting, Saturday, February 10,1996." 23 And various things were discussed, 24 including establishing a policing protocol and I see that 25 in addition to a number of persons, both Mr. Les
1641 Kobayashi and yourself are -- are noted as being present. 2 Is this the meeting that you're referring 3 to? 4 A: No, this was later on -- 5 Q: All right. 6 A: -- the next year. 7 Q: Yes, subsequent to December the 3rd 8 of '95. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. Do you recall being 11 present at this meeting? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And that Mr. Kobayashi was present at 14 this meeting? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. You were asked some 17 questions by, I believe, Ms. Jones concerning why it was 18 you hadn't met with the SIU earlier than you did. I just 19 have one (1) question in follow-up to that. 20 As of September the 19th, 1995, did you 21 have any outstanding warrants for your arrest? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Thank you. I wonder, can you put up 24 Inquiry -- we're going to look at Inquiry Document Number 25 1001822 next.
1651 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: You'll recall this is a document that 5 Ms. Jones took you to earlier with respect to a meeting 6 on October the 24th -- I believe that's 1995. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: All right. And these documents -- 11 and these were -- this was one (1) of the -- this was the 12 -- the meeting at which you and others turned over 13 particular pieces of evidence that you had received and 14 you'll recall that Ms. Jones took you to the various 15 items? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you advised us that you did not 18 attend or arrive at the Park until September the 8th, in 19 the evening; at dark? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: As I look at the dates on which these 22 documents and various things were collected, they appear 23 to be collected on September the 7th and 8th -- just 24 scroll up through the pages. 25 It looks like also one (1) on September
1661 the 9th, but most of the dates appear to be around 2 September the 7th. 3 Did you -- did I understand your evidence 4 yesterday that -- that further objects were collected 5 after you arrived at the Park on September the 8th, by 6 individuals under your direction? 7 In other words, after September the 8th 8 did you collect further evidence? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right, and so these ones clearly 11 deal with the -- the evidence collected primarily prior 12 to your arriving at the Park; fair enough? 13 A: This stuff, yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. And Mr. Scullion has indicated 15 to you, or suggested to you, that there may have been a 16 further meeting at which further objects or evidence was 17 handed over to the SIU? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And this is a meeting other than the 20 August '96 meeting at which you turned over three (3) 21 bullet casings? 22 A: Yes, I think so. Yeah, I think 23 that's what she was talking about -- 24 Q: So this is -- this is a third meeting 25 at which evidence was handed over?
1671 A: There was a third meeting, yes. 2 Q: And was Mr. Colin Brown involved in 3 the turnover of that additional evidence? 4 A: I would think so. 5 Q: Okay, and do you recall whether at 6 the turnover of that further evidence, there were further 7 bullet casings turned over? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I'd like to put up on the screen, 10 please, and perhaps actually, before we move on, this 11 document should be made an exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-330, your Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-330. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-330: Document 1001822 follow-up 16 report from SIU, October 17 31/'95 submitted by Don 18 Miller re: A meeting October 19 24/'95, SIU file No. 95-PFD- 20 130 21 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And perhaps -- I have a 23 copy of the document for the Commissioner and for the 24 witness, please. It's Inquiry Document Number 1001816. 25
1681 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: And it's a document entitled: 3 "Special Investigations Unit: Follow-up 4 Report." 5 And if you would go to Page 5, second 6 paragraph, and I should indicate this relates to an entry 7 that appears to be dated January the 20th, 1996. 8 It reads as follows: 9 "At 1:40 p.m. Ben Pouget stated that 10 the First Nations and their lawyers, 11 Colin Brown and Tony Ross were 12 tentatively setting up a meeting with 13 the SIU. 14 They were going to have the doctors 15 present and they wanted to review the 16 OPP computer disk and turn over 17 remaining casings that they had -- 18 still had in their custody along with 19 the tire that was spoken of earlier in 20 this follow-up report, and SIU would be 21 notified when they confirmed date was 22 set up." 23 Now, was a meeting, to your knowledge, set 24 up to hand over the remaining bullet casings and to 25 review the OPP computer disks referred to in this
1691 passage? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you recall approximately when 4 that was? 5 A: No, I don't. All I know, it was 6 winter. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: That's all I can say. 9 Q: I'd like to make this the next 10 exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-331, your Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 331. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-331: Document 1001816 SIU follow- 15 up report submitted by Jim 16 Kennedy February 12, 17 '96 SIU File Number 95-PFD- 18 130 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Did you turn over the additional 22 bullet casings to Mr. Ross or Mr. Brown from your 23 custody, the ones that were in the bags that were in your 24 trunk that you talked about yesterday? 25
1701 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I know they got everything. 4 Somebody's got it, either SIU or the lawyers. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I haven't got any. 7 Q: All right, thank you. Those are my 8 questions on re-examination. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. I think that completes your evidence, Mr. 11 Elijah. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much for coming in. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. Elijah. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'd like to take the 17 time to thank everybody that came here and supported this 18 thing and all you guys doing your jobs, thank you very 19 much. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 THE WITNESS: No problem. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 23 24 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 25
1711 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Hensel, 2 I think you have the next witness. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Commissioner, I asked 7 -- well, I -- Mr. Millar, whether I might make a brief 8 submission before we move on to the next witness and if I 9 may, sir, I'd just like to -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir. 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: It would be better if 12 I could find my notes, anyway. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then it will 14 be very brief -- 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you 17 don't. 18 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Yes, yes. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: This is supplementary 23 to the submission I made yesterday, and it relates to 24 some of the media coverage of yesterday's evidence and I 25 want to preface the submission by saying that I am not
1721 being critical of any reporter involved in this and, in 2 fact, I discussed what I am about to say with the 3 reporter in question. 4 And, I do want to point out, though, that 5 we are engaged in a process that is very different from 6 many legal proceedings. It is indeed an investigative 7 process. It is also fundamentally characterized by the 8 fact that it is subject to a much higher level of ongoing 9 publicity than most legal proceedings. 10 Whereas in many legal proceedings, the 11 publicity is with respect to the findings of fact or the 12 process of finding of fact within a very short period of 13 time, so that you can follow the chain. We are here 14 engaged in a much longer process and a much more extended 15 degree of media coverage, long before any decisions as to 16 the facts can be made. 17 And I wanted to provide you, sir, with a 18 copy of the -- the banner story on Page 5 of the front 19 section of the Sarnia Observer today, and I have some 20 other copies that I can provide My Friends. 21 And the realities of the -- the process of 22 -- the journalistic process is that the -- the reporter 23 writes the story, the reporter will always try to put 24 both sides in. But the reporter doesn't write the 25 headlines, and doesn't decide on the play. And so we
1731 have a banner headline based on yesterday's evidence 2 that, quote: 3 "Inquiry told Harris ordered OPP 4 action." 5 Now, a lot of people will see that 6 headline and they won't have in mind what you were very 7 clear about yesterday, sir, in terms of what, if any, 8 weight you could give to the evidence in question; how it 9 had to be approached very cautiously and so on. 10 And the other reality of the -- the other 11 reality of the journalistic process is that there is a 12 person who carries out a function which, it's an old 13 term, called a Stringer, so that the local reporter will 14 write the article on site, and their organization will be 15 affiliated with the Canadian Press Organization, which -- 16 pursuant to which, the story is transmitted by wire 17 across the country for use by any of the subscribers. 18 And, the reporter again, doesn't have any 19 control over the editing of the story he or she puts on 20 the wire, or the abridgement of the story or the 21 headlining of the story. 22 But today we see an example of this 23 process in action in the London Free Press. And the 24 London Free Press simply puts, "Harris Linked to 25 Ipperwash Action." And that's how people are damaged in
1741 the Inquiry process. 2 And I -- I only raise this because it 3 struck me as being illustrative of the concern that I 4 raised, which is that, in my submission, due to the 5 particular nature of the process which, indeed, properly 6 involves moving away from strict rules of evidence in the 7 court. 8 That, in my submission, on a going forward 9 basis, I would suggest that the realities be borne in 10 mind in making an assessment of the real probative value 11 of evidence before it is led. 12 And that's the only submission I wish to 13 make. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I appreciate 15 your comment, Mr. Downard. 16 Carry on. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good afternoon, 21 Commissioner. 22 The Commission calls as its next witness, 23 Mrs. Rose Manning. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Ms. 25 Manning.
1751 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 2 afternoon, Ms. Manning. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 4 the Bible, affirm, or use an alternate oath? 5 THE WITNESS: I wish to affirm by oath. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, ma'am. Please 7 give us your full name, your name in full, please. 8 THE WITNESS: (NATIVE LANGUAGE SPOKEN) 9 and I'm known as Rose Manning from Stoney Point and 10 Kettle Point area. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, ma'am. 12 13 ROSE MANNING, Sworn: 14 15 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: Good afternoon, Mrs. Manning. 17 A: Good afternoon. 18 Q: Can you state for the record, your 19 date of birth? 20 A: Yes, it's December the 3rd, 1933. 21 Q: Thank you. So in 1942 you would have 22 been ten (10) years old? 23 A: Yes, going on twelve (12). 24 Q: Okay. And your parents were 25 Willington Elijah, also known as Cob (phonetic)?
1761 A: Yes. 2 Q: And Marjorie Elijah, formerly Henry? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I understand that you also had -- 5 your mother also had an aunt named Lina Lunum (phonetic) 6 that you regarded as a grandmother? 7 A: Yes, I did. But I also had my -- my 8 own grandmother from my -- from my dad's side, was Annie 9 Henry Elijah. And my grandfather's name was John Elijah 10 from the Stoney Point Reserve. 11 Q: Okay. And your father's side of the 12 family was from Stoney Point? 13 A: No. My mother came from Kettle Point 14 as a young woman. 15 Q: But your father's -- 16 A: Pardon? 17 Q: -- your father's side of the family? 18 Your father was from Stoney Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 Q: My father, my grandfather and the 22 three (3) of -- four (4) of us in my father's side, well, 23 I mean my -- my mother and father. 24 Q: Okay. So, your mother was born at 25 Kettle Point?
1771 A: Yes. 2 Q: And later moved to Stoney Point? 3 A: Yes, she did. 4 Q: When -- was that on her marriage to 5 your father? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Thank you. I understand you also had 8 a number of siblings? 9 A: Yes, I did and they were -- I had -- 10 I had -- besides myself I had Doreen -- Florence Doreen 11 Elijah, and I've had -- I had Adrianne Annie. There was 12 just -- that was that -- that were born in Stoney Point, 13 but I had -- also I had Vira Sandra (phonetic). Oh no, I 14 had Vasene Joanne (phonetic), but she died in Kettle -- 15 in Stoney Point, Vasene Joanne Elijah. 16 Q: So, she was born in Stoney Point as 17 well? 18 A: She was born in Stoney Point. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And moving to Kettle Point, we had 21 Vira Sandra -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- and John Olan Elijah (phonetic). 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Who is still alive today, all the
1781 rest of my -- my sisters are deceased. 2 Q: Okay. And how many children do you 3 have, Mrs. Manning? 4 A: I have -- I've had twelve (12) 5 children and now I have ten (10) living children 6 Q: Okay, two (2) deceased. And 7 approximately how many grandchildren and great- 8 grandchildren do you have? 9 A: Approximately sixty (60) 10 grandchildren. 11 Q: Okay. Can you describe for the 12 Commission what you can remember of life at Stoney Point? 13 A: Well, I remember an awful lot from 14 Stoney Point because I -- I was raised in -- on like I -- 15 I had my best years in Stoney Point. I went to school in 16 Stoney Point. I also went to church in Stoney Point. I 17 also seen people that died and were buried there. I also 18 went to marriages. 19 I also took part in all the quilting bees, 20 the buzz bees, the -- you know, they used to do 21 everything like they should today. Canning and making 22 layettes for the babies. They didn't have to worry 23 about, you know -- nowadays they kind of worry about 24 where their babies' clothes are coming from sometimes. 25 But they -- they were prepared ahead of
1791 time and my -- my both grandmothers, my grandmother Annie 2 Elijah was my maternal grandmother and my other 3 grandmother that I speak about is -- who was with me til 4 -- til my oldest daughter was married, that was Lena 5 Lunum, she also was a midwife and -- and a medicine 6 woman, but I -- I do believe that they were both together 7 when I was born. 8 But I know they done a lot of things 9 differently back then. And -- and my -- my first 10 language was the Anishnaabe language, the native 11 language. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That was what was spoken in -- in our 14 home. 15 And I remember all the -- the good things 16 and -- and I remember that my parents and my 17 grandparents, we -- we shared a big old house which later 18 caught fire before we moved to Kettle Point. And they 19 helped each other to raise -- to raise -- to raise us and 20 we always had a good time, they always played with us and 21 told us stories and took us for walks and took us to 22 church and we had -- we had prayer meetings in my -- in 23 my home. 24 And also, I remember at two (2) years old, 25 I know I -- you know, that I remembered at two (2) years
1801 old, there was a lot of people there and my Mother and 2 grandparents used to feed those people at -- that came to 3 our house. 4 So, I -- there was a pot of soup on the 5 stove and I was thinking there's an awful lot of people 6 here. I was saying, I wonder how we're going to feed 7 them all, you know? 8 I went up to take a little peek. It was 9 in back behind the stove and I peeked in that pot and 10 when I pulled it, it came all -- it splashed over top of 11 me. 12 I could remember people screaming and that 13 was it. I don't -- I didn't even -- it didn't even hurt 14 me. I don't remember a thing about the pain. It could 15 have been myself screaming, but -- but I survived with 16 just a few scars under my arm and across my chest area. 17 But I do remember that, I recall it so 18 plainly, so you -- I'm saying myself, we must have good 19 memories if you can remember at two (2) years old. This 20 happened to me when I was two (2) years old. 21 I was standing on a chair, so I always 22 remember that. 23 Q: Mrs. Manning, so would it be fair to 24 say that you have a very clear recollection, what you 25 would -- what you would regard as a clear recollection of
1811 your childhood and early childhood? 2 A: Yes, well, if I could remember this 3 event, then I'm sure I could remember a lot of other 4 things that happened. 5 If I could remember from two (2) years 6 old, this is why I'm telling you this, is because I -- I 7 could remember that. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: That far back. 10 Q: Okay, and you lived at Stoney Point 11 until you were ten (10) years old; is that correct? 12 A: Well somewhere around there. I'm not 13 for sure exactly -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- when I moved. 16 Q: And prior to that move, how did 17 people living at Stoney Point, as you can recall, how did 18 they provide for themselves? 19 A: Well, they always -- they were a 20 smart people and they -- the Native people are smart 21 people. They were put in there and they were -- they 22 made -- they sold bolts to the basket factory. 23 You had to have baskets, you had to have 24 baskets for everything. Bushel baskets, eleven (11) 25 quart, six (6) quart, four (4) quart, all kinds of
1821 baskets, and they even sold them in the hospitals for 2 laundry baskets. 3 And everybody took part in -- in their 4 livelihood. Like in season, they'd pick berries in 5 season. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And they worked. The bogs were -- 8 the celery gardens, we'd call them, because you can't 9 grow celery just anywhere. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: So they used to go to the celery 12 gardens and work there, there was always work. And there 13 was always work all around the farmers. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: So everybody's working and they all 16 had bush lots and they cut those bolts to make those 17 baskets and they sold them to the basket factory. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: And they made axe handles and all 20 kind -- numerous types of handles, not just axe handles, 21 and -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- and they were grey ash, but a 24 hickory handle was the best handle and the most 25 expensive.
1831 Q: Hmm hmm. And did -- 2 A: And even from those same trees, you 3 got your nuts, hickory nuts and -- and walnuts, 4 butternuts. You know, there was all kinds of things like 5 that in -- in the bush you could survive on. 6 There was all kinds of rabbits and small 7 game, like squirrels and I wasn't into -- we didn't eat 8 too much squirrels, but we liked the rabbits, rabbit 9 stew. 10 And of course we had our little farm too. 11 We had a few chickens and -- and we had milk, we had one 12 or two cows but I remember we had the one cow and we had 13 horses and they sold -- they skinned them horses and sold 14 the hides after. 15 Like my dad was -- and my grandfather was 16 getting on in years and our, you know, there was talk of 17 us moving away and so they sold -- you know, they -- that 18 horse was kind of ill I think anyway. But I remember 19 seeing them skin -- skinning that rabbit, not a rabbit 20 but squirrel -- of the horse. I'm getting as bad as you 21 are. 22 And they skinned this horse and sold -- 23 sold the hide for something and some truck come a way -- 24 come along and took the old dead horse away. I don't 25 know what for but they took it away.
1841 And you know, there was all kinds of 2 things, especially basket making and there was all kinds 3 of things like berries in season, morels in season. I'd 4 crush morels and sand morels and the -- the berries they 5 were like the biggest thimble berries that you can see, 6 you know, find anywhere. 7 Q: So people didn't go hungry? 8 A: No, they never. And they worked for 9 -- like the farmers that give them something they didn't 10 want like maybe the pig's head and used it to make head 11 cheese out of it. They used to make their own soap. I 12 was going to say soup but they probably made that too. 13 But no, they never went hungry. There was 14 always plenty of food there and they were always well 15 dressed. My grandmother owned a -- she owned the first 16 fur coat in -- in Stoney Point. I didn't know this til 17 lately. I think Dave Bressette was telling me that. 18 But she was the one that -- but she was a 19 midwife. She had to get out and dress warm so she could 20 deliver babies. And -- or going to help the sick 21 somewhere. And -- and she could make really nice 22 baskets, real pretty baskets and she -- she sold baskets 23 all the time. 24 And my grandfather was always working 25 somewhere and so was my dad. My mom had to stay home but
1851 she made baskets also for a living. 2 Q: All right. You mentioned that your 3 family had a farm? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I'm wondering if we can get a map. 6 I'm going to put a map on the screen; that's a doc -- 7 it's a map that's been identified in these proceedings as 8 Exhibit P-40. You also have a paper copy of that map in 9 front of you, Mrs. Manning underneath the other map 10 there. 11 Now I realize that this is a map of what 12 later became the military reserve. And I believe we have 13 a pointer on the desk there. It's a black -- it looks 14 like a pen on the desk in front of you. Our court 15 officer will just come and assist you in finding that. 16 A: Where's D sec -- we lived on D 17 Section. If it's marked D Section that was our home. 18 Well where's your D Section, I asked you? 19 Q: We -- it's actually not divided up in 20 the same way that it used to be. But it does, it is 21 oriented north -- north is upwards roughly. 22 A: And this line across here, is that 23 the Outer Drive? 24 Q: Which line is that, Mrs. Manning? 25 A: Let's see. Where's Highway 21 on
1861 that map? 2 Q: Highway 21 runs across the bottom. 3 A: Right this way? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: And this is -- must be the one 6 running -- 7 Q: Yeah, Army Camp Road would be on the 8 far side, there. 9 A: Over right -- Okay. 10 Q: Yeah. And -- 11 A: And we lived in -- we lived in this 12 area -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- where that pond is. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Right in this corner. 17 Q: And could you describe for us the 18 extent of your family's land holdings; approximately? 19 A: We -- we have -- we have location 20 tickets for three (3) -- three hundred (300) acres of 21 land in this -- in this area -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- and also in the -- I forget what 24 section -- where this range is up in here where they were 25 -- where they were shooting, so we -- it's right up
1871 against the fence, but it was seventy-nine (79) acres 2 there. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. For -- for the record -- 4 I'm just going to describe for the record where you're 5 pointing with the pointer. 6 A: Well, this -- is this the centre? 7 They had a road running from -- from east to west or west 8 to east. 9 Q: Yeah, that's a road there. 10 A: This is a road? Okay, then we had 11 our land right in -- right in around this area. 12 Q: Okay. So, you're pointing to -- to 13 an area to the immediate south of the road running east 14 to west across the centre of the map? 15 A: Yes, and my grandfather also gave 16 Stewart Elijah a piece of land around here -- right 17 around in that area. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: That was right next to the burial 20 ground. 21 Q: And Stewart Elijah was a relative? 22 A: Yes, he was my -- he was my dad's 23 first cousin, but my -- my father -- or, not my father, 24 but my father's father, adopted him and, well, he didn't 25 adopt him he raised him as his own because his father
1881 died. So, he didn't have anybody, so there was my dad 2 and Stewart Elijah, so -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- we had a large -- we had lots of 5 land there -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- and we had a good life there. 8 Q: Okay. And -- 9 A: Like, I was a happy child. We were 10 all happy there, everybody in the -- you know, we all 11 have -- have our ups and downs, but we were pretty happy 12 as -- as a family growing up there, you could kind of 13 say. I knew all the people there and I trusted all the 14 people there and they trusted each other. 15 You went to visit somebody, they'd give 16 you a drink of water as soon as you entered their house 17 and -- and it didn't matter -- didn't matter who -- what 18 time of the day or -- or night. 19 And, you know, it was a sharing, caring 20 community, but it was a small one. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. And you attended school at 22 Stoney Point as well? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And that was day school, I 25 understand?
1891 A: Pardon? 2 Q: That was day school? 3 A: Yes, and my sister Doreen -- Florence 4 Doreen, she also -- she was another child that was born 5 there. She's second to myself. She attended there also. 6 Q: And do you recall visiting Kettle 7 Point when you were a child, prior to 1942? 8 A: Oh, yes. We visited Kettle Point all 9 the time. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: My -- my father, he was the Chief 12 Councillor for Aazhoodena. I didn't call it, 13 "Aazhoodena". Somewhere along the line its name got 14 changed, we always called it, "Aazhoodena". 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: So that was the name of the -- of our 17 reserve. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: And he has to go -- he has to be a 20 Chief and -- and a Councillor and he had to go to Kettle 21 Point, so we -- we had good relations with people from -- 22 from Kettle Point. 23 Q: So, for a time he was Chief of both 24 Kettle and Stoney Point? 25 A: No, he was never a Chief for -- for
1901 Kettle Point. But he was a Councillor til pretty well 2 when he died, he was still -- he was, you know, he was 3 the Councillor to -- into his old age in Kettle Point. 4 Q: Okay. And how would you describe 5 relations between the people at Kettle Point and at 6 Stoney Point during this period? 7 A: Well I thought, myself, being in a 8 position I was in, I thought they were very good, because 9 I walked over there and I had lots of relatives there. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Like my mother's family came from 12 there. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So we always had, like a -- my 15 grandmother was my Mother's aunt. She lived in Kettle 16 Point so when we went to Kettle Point we always had a 17 place to go. There was a lot of places to visit and we 18 always went to church there. 19 And we -- you know, and they would help 20 out and, like, when there was help needed, they would 21 help out there with their camp meetings that they were 22 famous for. 23 Q: And I understand that your -- your 24 family also rented lands to non-aboriginal farmers in the 25 area?
1911 A: Yes, that's after -- after everything 2 was gone. Like, after our horses -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- and well maybe we had a few 5 chickens, we had a couple of dogs -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- too. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And -- 10 Q: And that was the source of income -- 11 A: They started renting their lands to 12 Ralph Elliott and Wes Oliver. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: It was prior to our moving. When I 15 was in -- looking through the archives, I found where 16 they were really concerned about their -- about the 17 things they'd planted there. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: They said, are we going to get paid 20 for our -- can we go and take our crops up or get our 21 money back? I gave -- 22 Q: This is -- 23 A: Wellington -- 24 Q: -- just interrupt -- sorry, I'm sorry 25 to interrupt; that's the -- by "they" you mean the non-
1921 aboriginal farmers? 2 A: Yes. Was not who you were talking 3 about? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: Just to clarify. 7 A: Just so as we understand each other. 8 Yes, so -- yeah, so that was Wes Oliver and Don Elliott. 9 They were -- they didn't want to lose their money and it 10 was something like eighty dollars ($80), I -- like I've 11 seen a lot of things in the archives -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- when I was looking around. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And -- 16 Q: I under -- 17 A: -- of course, they got paid. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: They were allowed to take their -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: They were allowed to take their -- 22 they were allowed to harvest their -- their plants, I 23 guess. 24 Q: That's after -- after 19 -- or after 25 the appropriation of the land --
1931 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- they were renting? Okay, we will 3 come to that, but just prior to that, I understand that 4 your grandfather passed on some land to you and your 5 father? 6 A: Yes, verbally. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: He said if -- he said he'd be going 9 home pretty soon. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: I didn't know where he was going, but 12 he was going home. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: And -- and he said I want to leave 15 you some -- some of my property. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: And so my dad's passed on, you now 18 how he's Jewish, no, just kidding, but anyway, he said, 19 well, you can have my land. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: You know, you can do whatever you 22 want to do with it. Do something, make some money off of 23 it. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: SO I said, well I wanted the front
1941 property, because I don't want to live in the bush. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: So he said -- he said, Yeah, sure. 4 But, I guess he did give us some of that land. And I 5 have the location tickets to that land there, just like a 6 deed which you would call a deed today, but back then 7 they were called location tickets. 8 And I have -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- in there it specifies the amount 11 of land on those tickets -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- and so that's why I know how much 14 land we owned and where, because it specified the land 15 and the ranges, what right -- exactly where it was. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: So. 18 Q: All right, and just coming to -- now, 19 to 1942, when did you first learn or come to -- how did 20 you first come to learn that your family would be leaving 21 the land at Stoney Point? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Well, there was talk of it. You
1951 know, when something happens, people are talking all 2 over, you know? They -- they -- at first -- the first 3 sign was that non-Natives were on the land poking around 4 and drilling around and saying they were going -- they 5 wanted the land for something else or doing some -- 6 looking for oil or doing something. 7 So people didn't mind them just digging 8 around and stuff, oh well. They're not hurting anybody. 9 They're not hurting anything. They were digging around. 10 And they started in that range that was -- a guy last 11 pointed at -- in that area. 12 Q: Okay. If you could take the laser 13 pointer and identify for the Commission. 14 A: Right in this area. They started 15 around in that area, digging around because that was -- 16 that was kind of a clear land there. There was just one 17 person lived back there. 18 Q: Okay. And just for the records, 19 you -- 20 A: Johnson land. It was Johnson's that 21 lived there. 22 Q: -- and just -- 23 A: And on my dad, my grandmother was a 24 Johnson before she became Elijah and this is why this -- 25 this part of this parcel of land that belonged to the --
1961 to the Johnsons in that area. 2 Q: That's the land you've identified to 3 the south of that road? 4 A: Yes. And it belonged to my -- my 5 grandmother first. And then when she was married to John 6 Elijah, the land was transferred over to her name because 7 they weren't suppose to be able to hold location tickets 8 in their name. 9 Q: And who's -- who's 'they'? 10 A: The women. The non -- well, she was 11 a Native woman she -- she was a woman but they were 12 discriminated against because they were not married and 13 they figured a man should be holding a location ticket 14 even though it wasn't his. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. So that location ticket 16 passed onto your father? Or -- no, I'm sorry, to your 17 grandmother. 18 A: My grandfather. 19 Q: Your grandfather on her remarriage -- 20 on your grandmother's remarriage? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And can you recall hearing 23 adults discussing leaving Stoney Point or the government 24 taking -- 25 A: No, they didn't say they were going
1971 to leave Stoney Point. I heard them discussing that they 2 wondered what those people were doing on -- non-Native 3 people are doing digging around their land. 4 But there was talk about a lot of gold 5 being around there and they said, maybe they're trying to 6 find that gold that's suppose to be buried out here. So 7 they were kind of worried they might find this gold out. 8 My grand -- my dad used to say, don't talk about that 9 gold, you know, bad luck. 10 Q: And did there come a time when the 11 adults began discussing the government taking the land? 12 A: Well, they must have because I can 13 recall my -- my people, like my -- my immediate family 14 talking about they might make us move temporarily. And 15 so there was meetings about that. 16 Like my -- beings my dad was the Chief, I 17 mean while he was Chief Councillor. But he had to go to 18 Council and they were talking about taking our land from 19 us. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall how long it 21 was before your family actually moved that you first 22 heard of that? Heard those discussions that you've 23 described? 24 A: Well, it was a long -- it was a long 25 -- good -- a long while.
1981 Q: So there was some time. 2 A: Oh, yeah. It wasn't just -- they 3 didn't just come in and start moving people off the land 4 right away but... 5 Q: Okay. And what was your family's 6 reaction? What was the reaction of the adults in your 7 family or what was their state? 8 A: Well, they didn't want to move, you 9 know. They didn't want to move, they were settled there, 10 they were happy there, they had everything they wanted 11 there and -- and why move and they were quite upset. 12 And I remember them having little council 13 outside of my house at one time and they were all saying, 14 well, you know, we might have to move and there was a lot 15 of mosquitoes out there. They made -- they used to make 16 those smudge pots. They would throw Burdock into the 17 fire and -- and it would cause smoke so that they could 18 endure it, because there wasn't enough room in the house. 19 Well, it was hot, anyway. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: So, they were out there getting 22 chewed up by the mosquitos, but yet having this meeting 23 and -- and that night there was a big northern lights and 24 instead of it being like ordinary lights, it was all red 25 right across the sky and in the middle there was an
1991 eagle, while they were having this meeting and you know, 2 they were crying and praying at that time, too. 3 And my -- and there really was and my -- 4 and they said, Well, the United States is going to win. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: So, we might just as well go 7 peacefully because the United States is going to win so 8 we're going to get our land back shortly. 9 Q: So, they understood that -- 10 A: Because they were promised that they 11 would be given back this land -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- before -- right after the war. 14 Q: Okay. And that was conditional on 15 the Allies or the United States winning the war? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Was there any discussion of what 18 might happen if that didn't occur? 19 A: Well, we would be in the hands of the 20 enemy, which was the Germans at that time. I -- I spoke 21 some place and I said, Somebody really gave me the 22 dickens for saying that -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- but that was -- this is what was 25 told to me and I'm just telling you what they thought.
2001 They thought, well, you know, which is it going to be? 2 Are we going to be -- take a chance or... Well, we were 3 taking a chance anyway, whichever way you looked at it. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: But as you know the war was over 6 before then, but these are things that happened prior to 7 the -- to the war and prior to them taking our land. And 8 this is their deciding factor. 9 Q: Okay. So, your family did 10 understand, though, that if Canada won the war -- and you 11 understood that if Canada -- if our side won the war, 12 that the land would be returned to you? 13 A: Certainly. The land was supposed to 14 be returned. They -- they emphasized that over and over 15 again. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: It was just temporary -- a temporary 18 move in order to train their soldiers so they could go 19 and win the war and come back and give us back our land. 20 Q: Okay. And prior to your moving over 21 to Kettle Point, was there any activity or -- I 22 understand that the -- the Military did go in and begin 23 doing some construction; is that correct? 24 A: Well, yes, they -- they started at my 25 -- at my place.
2011 Q: Hmm hmm. And what did they do? 2 A: They built -- they brought in big 3 machinery -- some big machinery and they started chopping 4 in the -- in the ground and they got the finest of stone 5 out of that stone quarry. It was crushed stone. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. And did -- 7 A: And we -- we were still living there. 8 They were -- and they were starting to build an army camp 9 at that time. They -- you know, they -- they went in -- 10 well, they -- they done a number of things, they posted 11 an eviction notice at the Church and said -- you know, 12 they just came in and pounded on the wall and left a 13 notice saying, well, everybody has to move and we were -- 14 Q: Did you see that notice yourself? 15 A: Pardon? 16 Q: Did you see that notice yourself? 17 A: Yes, but I couldn't read it. 18 Q: You couldn't read it? 19 A: But I was there and -- but I remember 20 they were -- everybody was -- thought they were very 21 disrespectful to come in and do this while they were 22 having service. 23 Q: So, that notice was put up while you 24 were -- while there was a service? 25 A: While they were having service, yes.
2021 And they had lots of services, that was a Methodist 2 church, but there was a Native -- Native person 3 preaching. So, as far as they were concerned it must of 4 been all Natives. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: And so they had no respect for us. 7 Q: Okay. And you mentioned that -- can 8 you pinpoint on the map that's up on the screen there 9 with the pointer, where they -- they began mining? 10 A: Right in the very corner -- 11 Q: For the record, you're indicating -- 12 A: What is this here? Is it that -- 13 Q: I believe that's -- 14 A: -- that pond? 15 Q: -- called the stone quarry. 16 A: Yeah, well they started in that 17 corner. 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Right in that very corner and we 20 lived about on this side, right in around there. There's 21 still -- I still know where we lived. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. For the record, Mrs. 23 Manning is indicating a point in the lower southeast 24 corner of Exhibit P-40. 25 A: It's still there also. It was really
2031 dug way deep -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- they started digging and -- and my 4 Mother was -- she was really -- 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: -- concerned, because she said, if 7 you fall down there, you're going to break your necks. 8 But she -- and she used to talk in her own language. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: We talked nothing but our own 11 language at that time. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: And, of course, I had to go and have 14 a swim in that -- because it started filling up with 15 water immediately. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: And it's still -- and it's still -- 18 there's still a big waterhole there. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: You call it a pond, but there's fresh 21 water that's always flowing. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. And were there also 23 buildings constructed prior to your family moving off -- 24 A: Oh, yes. 25 Q: -- Stoney Point?
2041 A: My grandfather and father worked at 2 the Army -- Army barracks. Like, they were building -- 3 they were helping build this -- it's supposed to be a 4 temporary buildings. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. And where were those 6 buildings located? Are they the buildings that are 7 standing today? 8 A: Yes. They are the same buildings. 9 They were just -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: But together, time and time again, 12 they were... 13 Q: Okay. And I understand that your 14 grandfather passed away prior to your leaving Stoney 15 Point, prior to your family leaving Stoney Point? 16 A: Yes, he did. Like he was working at 17 the camp and -- and it was fairly cold, and... 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Would you like to take a moment, Mrs. 22 Manning, or take a short -- are you... 23 A: Yes, and he worked there and they 24 worked in the rain and they weren't given any rain coats. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
2051 A: Or anything to keep them dry. So he 2 got pneumonia and he died. And he was the last man that 3 was buried there. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: And my sister died also. She had -- 6 she had something -- she had water in the brain, she died 7 prior to my grandfather passing on. 8 Q: Okay. And where was your grandfather 9 eventually buried? 10 A: He was buried in the old cemetery. 11 They only had one -- one (1) cemetery right near where I 12 pointed out where that -- my grandfather gave that -- 13 Stuart Elijah land. 14 Q: Okay, so that's -- 15 A: He was buried there. 16 Q: Just to the south -- 17 A: And I remembered when I went to the 18 funeral, I remember all those people that were working 19 there, they came to the fence as we went by -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- to pay their last respects to my 22 grandfather. 23 Q: And how long after -- you mentioned 24 also that you sister passed away? 25 A: Yes, she did. It was about a short
2061 time, I don't know, really, how long it's -- within a 2 year anyway, she passed away and she was buried there. 3 And my grandfather, well, he got sick from working at the 4 Army -- Army camp. 5 Q: Hmm hmm, and -- 6 A: Anyway, he didn't have to worry about 7 where he was moving to or he didn't have to worry about 8 things we worry about -- we worried about. 9 Q: Okay. And -- 10 A: He was a good, strong man. He was a 11 very strong person and he was very strong in his belief. 12 He taught me a lot of things. 13 Q: And was he aware -- prior to his 14 passing, was he aware that the land -- had the land been 15 appropriated at that point? 16 A: Oh, yeah. 17 Q: But -- 18 A: Well they -- they wouldn't have that 19 Camp if it wasn't. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: So, it was -- it was in DND's hands. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. But your family was still - 23 - still living there? 24 A: We were still living there because we 25 were no -- I guess we were making no trouble for them or
2071 we were in -- we were out of the way far enough. Because 2 they never did use that -- that part of my land for -- 3 for anything except for all that stone that they -- they 4 removed to -- to build the Army Camp and to fix the roads 5 all over, or make roads. 6 Q: Okay, and just for the record, you 7 had indicated that your -- your grandfather and your 8 sister were buried in a -- a graveyard in an area that 9 your father had promised to Stewart Elijah or given to 10 Stewart Elijah? 11 A: Oh, he had given it to him. 12 Q: Yeah, and that was located -- 13 A: On that sandy road. It was -- he was 14 -- Stewart -- there was a number of people that lived on 15 the -- on what is called Crown land or we called it -- we 16 had another name for it. I forget the other name, but 17 they had another name for it back when I was a child 18 other than Crown land that is... 19 Q: I'm just talking about the location 20 of that land, it's to the immediate south of the -- the 21 road? 22 A: Yes, but they had this middle road -- 23 Q: Yeah, yeah. 24 A: -- that was all Crown land and that's 25 where Stewart Elijah was living.
2081 Q: Right. 2 A: But he did have -- my dad -- my 3 grandfather did give him some land -- 4 Q: Right. 5 A: -- but he was still on that road 6 allowance is what they called it, because you can go and 7 cut your wood there, you can go and do anything you want 8 to do. You could live there, you could -- you know, and 9 eventually everybody living in -- in Stoney Point, they 10 were all taken in, because there were some non-band 11 members. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: But they were all taken in as band 14 members. 15 Q: And was that prior to people moving 16 over to Kettle Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And just -- in terms of the 19 location of your father's gravesite, it would have been 20 to the south of the -- the road running east-west across 21 the middle of the map on Exhibit P-40 on the westerly 22 side of that map? 23 I'm just describing it for the record, so 24 that when people read the transcripts, they'll know what 25 you've described on the map.
2091 A: It was on the east -- on the east 2 side. No, it was on the west side of the -- of the -- 3 the cemetery, yes, on the west side, and down that -- 4 that road that was always there. 5 Q: Okay. And how long after -- if you - 6 - if you can recall, I realize it is a very, very long 7 time ago, but I understand that your family did 8 eventually move to Kettle Point or was moved to Kettle 9 Point? 10 A: Yes, we were -- we eventually were 11 moved to Kettle Point. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: By Mr. Tremain (phonetic). 14 Q: And who was Mr. -- 15 A: He was a truck driver that moved all 16 the people. Some were moved forcefully; some were -- 17 while they were at work, they were -- they jacked up 18 their house and took them without even them wrapping 19 their dishes up and they come home with broken dishes on 20 the floor and -- and no handles on their cups. And there 21 was a lot of stories like that. 22 And there was another person that was 23 supposingly -- I didn't see it, but I mean I heard all 24 the stories that she was -- put herself in front of 25 Tremain's truck because she didn't want to move.
2101 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And -- but I guess my -- my parents 3 took me to Kettle Point ahead of the -- ahead of being 4 moved, but when I woke up, I woke up in this big swamp 5 with -- with our house just on boulders and when you -- 6 when you tried to go outside, there was just nothing but 7 reeds and weeds and everything else. But it looks good 8 now after years of... 9 Q: So, your family's home was -- was 10 moved from Stoney Point to Kettle Point? 11 A: Yes, my Mother's -- on her property 12 that was given to her when she was a young girl. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. At Kettle Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Where I reside now. 17 Q: And can you recall -- 18 A: Well, it's not the same house, but I 19 reside the same -- the same place -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- we -- we moved to -- during our -- 22 during the move. 23 Q: Okay. And were there any concerns or 24 discussions that you can recall, amongst your family 25 members, about your family's grave sites at Stoney Point;
2111 your grandfather's and your sister's, and leaving them? 2 A: Well, well it's sad to leave -- to 3 leave anyone behind. Like, it is a sad situation when 4 you have to leave your -- your grandfather and your 5 sister behind and -- and -- and I know that both of them 6 were sad, my Mom and dad and I know the rest of the 7 people in Kettle -- in Kettle Point were sad to leave 8 their -- and the Army promised us that they would look 9 after the grave -- the graveyard and they would take good 10 care of it -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- but they never did. It was all 13 shot to pieces and there was no regard for the people 14 that was buried there. I guess they just thought, well, 15 it was -- they're dead and they don't know anything. 16 They're just natives. 17 But if I were to go and dance on somebody 18 else's graveyard I think they would jail me, right off -- 19 right away, but -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- you know, it's -- it's a sad 22 situation. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: And -- 25 Q: When you moved to Kettle Point, can
2121 you recall how your life, your day-to-day life changed? 2 A: We went swimming first thing in the 3 morning. 4 Q: At Kettle Point? 5 A: Pardon? 6 Q: At Kettle Point? 7 A: Yes, we would jump out in the lake. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: In the swamp, 'til we got that all -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- filled in with gravel or 12 something. We had to walk out in bare feet and -- and we 13 had plenty of floods back then, too. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And the neighbour, he would run out. 16 He would say, (NATIVE LANGUAGE SPOKEN), and he would 17 holler out to my dad and say -- this was in the winter 18 and the ice came over the ditch. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And my dad would look out. Even in 21 the -- in one of -- there was a lot of water, so we would 22 have to go and live -- live a little while with Stewart 23 or my uncle Ash who lived right across the way from us in 24 -- in Kettle Point. 25 Q: Okay. And you mentioned that your
2131 family held approximately three hundred (300) acres at 2 Stoney Point. What was the size of the piece of land 3 that your family moved onto at Kettle Point? 4 A: It was about, I'd say, roughly ten 5 (10) acres, because it's been sold over -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- or -- I don't really know what 8 happened there, but I know my mother had a chunk of land 9 and my mom trusted everybody that came along. 10 And I think she sold some of her share to 11 her brother, one of her brothers, so of course our land 12 decreased and -- 13 Q: Was this after you moved over in 14 1942? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. But, in terms of the land -- 17 the size of the piece of land, your family's land 18 holdings or the land you had at your disposal, decreased 19 during the move by a great deal? 20 A: In Stoney Point or Kettle Point? 21 Q: When you moved from Stoney Point to-- 22 A: Oh, yes. 23 Q: -- to Kettle Point. 24 A: It was -- it was nothing compared to 25 where we lived.
2141 Q: Okay. 2 A: We lost the land right where we lived 3 and it was all cleared and -- 4 Q: Were you able to farm -- 5 A: -- we could play around. 6 Q: Were you able to farm when you moved 7 to Kettle Point? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No. 10 A: Barely had enough room to make a 11 garden, but we had a -- well, we had a nice big garden, 12 but not as big as the one we had in -- in Stoney Point. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Just one moment. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 15 to take a break now? 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I can continue for 17 fifteen (15) more minutes or -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 19 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 21 Are you all right to continue for another 22 fifteen (15) minutes before we take a break? 23 THE WITNESS: Well I can take a break. 24 I'm -- I'm a little bit older than she is. She can stand 25 there all day and it wouldn't hurt her.
2151 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I have to stand. 2 Thank you, Mrs. Manning. 3 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 3:02 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 3:17 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good afternoon, 13 Mr. Commissioner. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 16 Q: Mrs. Manning, immediately before the 17 break, we were discussing the 194 -- your family's move 18 in 1942 from Stoney Point to Kettle Point. 19 Can you recall efforts after that -- when 20 you were young, on the part of your family members or any 21 community members for the return of -- to have the land 22 at Stoney Point returned? 23 A: Could you ask that again please? 24 Q: Sure. When you were young -- 25 A: Yes.
2161 Q: -- do you recall members of your 2 family or your community making efforts to have the land 3 at Stoney Point returned? 4 A: Is that after the -- after the war? 5 Q: Or -- or during the war, at any 6 point? 7 A: It was after the war that I can 8 recall that they started -- right directly after the war, 9 they started trying to get the return -- return of Stoney 10 Point to its rightful owners. 11 Q: And who -- who did that; who made 12 these efforts? 13 A: Well there were several people. 14 There was -- there was my dad and Frank Bressette, Ike 15 Shawno (phonetic), I remember them and Harry Henry or 16 Harry George as he calls himself now. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: Or his family all call -- he's passed 19 away so. Yes and right immediately after the war there 20 was efforts being made by the Stoney Point people all 21 over, like, not just -- like different -- like somebody 22 would head it up and somebody would, you know, they were 23 always getting together. 24 And they had to raise money to send 25 lawyers to -- for litigations and a lot of letter
2171 writing, writing letters to the government. And, later 2 on, there was protests, like demonstrations. But that 3 was -- this was early. They didn't have that in -- when 4 I was a young -- youngster. 5 Q: Okay. And -- 6 A: I was a teenager then. 7 Q: To your knowledge, what was the -- 8 what were the results of the efforts that you've 9 described? 10 A: There was nothing; there was no 11 response. There might have been a few because there was 12 a lot of -- there was a lot of information we received 13 but, you know, there was always a promise. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: But it was never carried through, 16 like, they -- they'd come by and they said, Well, the 17 Government said this, the Government said that and, you 18 know, You have to wait a little longer. 19 And -- but you know, they -- if one (1) 20 group quit then there was another group that started 21 right up and, you know, they were just off and on. They 22 were always negotiating for the -- for the return of 23 Stoney Point. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: So, they -- so what I can recall.
2181 Q: Okay. And that's as -- you came by 2 this knowledge because you were told it by older people? 3 A: No, I was then -- I was then on -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. 5 A: -- I was old enough then. They -- 6 they used to hold dances where my dad and -- and another 7 -- my dad, he used to call for those dances -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- and they would charge so much per 10 person to get in and there was another guy, his name is 11 Angus George, he used to do the same thing and he would 12 call for dances and they had box socials and they had 13 different ways of raising money back then as they do now 14 in your yard sales or bake -- well, I think they might 15 have had bake -- bake sales, too, for us. You know, 16 some -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- some other way, but I just know 19 definitely of two (2), is that -- the dances and the box 20 socials to raise money and they -- and, of course, going 21 from house to house and asking for donations of money to 22 send somebody to the -- to the government -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- to wherever they were, Ottawa or-- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
2191 A: -- at that time. But there was -- 2 there was never a letup, as far as I know, because I was 3 in on this myself, but -- but I didn't -- I didn't -- 4 couldn't -- I -- I wasn't in it continuously, it wasn't 5 at the biggest share of my life. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And not consistent -- consistent. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: As, you know, different -- different 10 parties would -- would... 11 Q: And during this period, after the end 12 of the war, did you visit the Army Camp or Stoney Point? 13 A: Well, I was -- I was in the Army Camp 14 while the Army was there. 15 Q: Even during the war? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And after your family moved to 18 Kettle Point, while you were young, did you -- did you go 19 back to the Stoney Point lands? 20 A: Yes, I did, I -- I went back through 21 with my grandmother Lena Lunum who was -- used to go back 22 there picking her medicines or her berries or bittersweet 23 or... 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: So, it was mainly the three (3) items
2201 that we were after. She didn't want to go alone and I 2 just went with her. I couldn't reach the berries to -- I 3 wasn't too interested, but she gave me -- shared with me 4 the berries that she had picked. 5 Q: And did she teach you about the 6 medicines that could be found at Stoney Point? 7 A: No, she didn't. I didn't want to... 8 Some of them she did. I didn't -- I wasn't into that 9 right then. 10 Q: Okay. And did you -- 11 A: I was too young to -- to even think 12 about ... 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And did you -- 14 A: But I remember playing around and 15 picking berries and eating them. 16 Q: And did you ever feel you were in any 17 danger from any of the activities that were being 18 conducted by the Military there? 19 A: No, I didn't, because I was used to 20 being in the bush back there, so I never felt -- I never 21 felt threatened. I always figured that was my land 22 anyway. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And then when they would start 25 shooting, she'd say, Let's get out of here. And we
2211 didn't even know that at time they used to have -- raised 2 flags up and say, Well, they're shooting and don't be in 3 that area. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: But, we never -- we weren't in the 6 front. So we never knew when there was going to be 7 target practices or whatever they were shooting at -- 8 target practices, I guess. 9 Q: But you never came to any harm? 10 A: No, never, never. 11 Q: And were there any difficulties -- 12 returning now to Kettle Point; were there any 13 difficulties in that community as a result of absorbing 14 all the people that moved from Stoney Point? 15 A: Well, they -- one (1) of those -- one 16 (1) guy said -- we said we were in great -- we were in 17 great pain. We said Stoney Point was in great pain and 18 we suffered. He said, How can you measure suffering and 19 great pain, we took you in, we suffered just as much as 20 you did. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: That was -- one younger chief 23 said that. 24 Q: And do you know what -- what kind of 25 suffering he was referring to?
2221 A: Overcrowding. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: And... 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall band members 5 being hire -- returning to the Army camp to work; being 6 hired by -- 7 A: Pardon? 8 Q: Do you recall band members, during 9 this period, being -- returning to the Army camp to work 10 for the military? 11 A: Well, they started working when -- 12 when the buildings started going up. They were hired 13 both from Stoney Point and Kettle Point. There was 14 people that worked there for years and years. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. And that happened 16 continuously -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- from the time of your move? 19 A: Right -- 20 Q: Or before? 21 A: -- to one of my daughters worked 22 there as a salad girl. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: She didn't like it. She... 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
2231 A: And then one of my grandchildren 2 worked there as... 3 Q: Hmm hmm. And in addition to -- to 4 that role, what else did band members do when they were 5 hired by the military there? 6 A: Well, we had -- we had boys from our 7 area and Watford. I had three (3) or four (4) boys that 8 went into -- went in as cadets. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: And one of them was a -- was a cadet 11 leader. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: He graduated to cadet leader and they 14 were always in that bush. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: So -- and the -- they would feed all 17 those cadets. They had cadets from all over the place, 18 all over and they would pay them. I think it was a 19 hundred dollars ($100) or a hundred and fifty (150) and 20 it would give them their -- their uniforms that they 21 had. 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: And they would buy shoes for them, so 24 as I had a lot of children, I put them -- as many as I 25 could in -- in that cad -- in for cadets. Just my boys.
2241 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: They had girls there, too, but I 3 never wanted my girls there. 4 Q: And can you recall other -- other job 5 functions that people took over at -- as employees of the 6 military during this period? 7 A: Well, they worked in the bush -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- and they kept roads clear and they 10 kept all the roads maintained. Like, using the gravel 11 for -- and they'd gravel the roads and kept everything 12 cut back because they were training the cadets there. 13 And the cadets used to run from one end of 14 the camp to the other, like to one -- one -- from the 15 bush to the front, from -- like, from the beach to the 16 front. 17 Q: Okay. And I understand that you, at 18 some point, moved away from Kettle Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: When was that? 21 A: Well, I was -- I was away at that 22 time when my boys came from Watford. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: I moved away and I was married and 25 off the reserve.
2251 Q: Roughly when was that? 2 A: Well I don't know. It's been so long 3 ago. My daughter just asked me that not so long ago, I 4 said I never really kept track of time, like -- 5 Q: Can you recall roughly how old you 6 were? 7 A: I was in my teens, I think. 8 Q: In your late teens? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yeah. And where did you move? 11 A: I moved in -- around the Watford 12 area. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I don't want nobody to know. I 15 still -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. And when did you -- and 17 when did you eventually return to Kettle Point? 18 A: When my mother died, which was -- 19 well I rented -- I -- I -- she made me -- what do you 20 call it, Power of Attorney. She wanted me to -- she 21 wanted to give me the land -- her house and everything 22 and I said, No, I said they'll too many people fighting 23 over it, I'll just -- I'll just be the power of attorney. 24 And as a result I -- I still have that 25 house and I started renting it out.
2261 Q: Hmm hmm. And that's at Kettle Point. 2 A: Yes. And that's where I reside now. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: But -- and I still own my house and 5 property. I still own house and property where I raised 6 my children. It was out in the farm. 7 Q: Okay. And can you recall roughly 8 when you would have returned to Kettle Point; like what - 9 - what year or what decade? 10 A: No I don't. 11 Q: Okay. Can you recall when your 12 mother passed away? 13 A: She passed away before I went into 14 Stoney Point. 15 Q: Okay. So it was prior to -- 16 A: But we never even went -- mentioned 17 anything about moving back into Stoney Point. 18 Q: And -- and we'll come to that in a 19 little while. 20 You mentioned earlier, Mrs. Manning, that 21 there came a time when people began demonstrating and 22 undertaking other activities aimed at having the land at 23 Stoney Point returned? 24 A: Well, yes, there was a lot of 25 demonstrations. A lot of them here and there and mostly
2271 around the army camp. 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall when those 3 demonstrations happened? 4 A: No, I don't. But I have them 5 documented somewhere. You know, we kept documents and... 6 Q: And do you currently have access to 7 those documents? 8 A: No, I don't. Purposefully I don't. 9 Q: And -- but these demonstrations took 10 place prior to your -- 11 A: Prior to our returning back into the 12 army camp. 13 Q: Okay and -- 14 A: We -- we even had the Japanese -- 15 Canadian Japanese or Japanese Canadians coming to our 16 demonstrations and we have pictures of them demonstrating 17 around the entrance to the army barracks. 18 Q: Okay. And what -- what were the 19 objectives of these demonstrations? 20 A: To bring awareness to the people 21 around the surrounding areas and also to the government 22 officials. So that they would say, Well it's about time 23 we gave those Stoney Point people back their land. 24 So this is -- and you know, that all our 25 people were starting to die off then. Our older people
2281 that wanted to go home. And so this is why we were 2 demonstrating and doing everything we could. There was 3 nothing else to do. 4 We'd tried everything. We tried -- we 5 tried letter writing, talking to the government officials 6 and we tried everything to get our land back. Everything 7 that we could possibly try, we tried it, you know, they 8 just turned a deaf ear. 9 And they had their own agendas and our 10 agenda was always to go back to our home. Because it was 11 our land, it was our home, it was everything to us. It 12 wasn't just a piece of property out in nowhere. It was 13 where we were happy. 14 And we wanted that land back that was 15 promised to us. And we wanted the land that was promised 16 by our forefathers that was going to belong to us and so 17 we would give it to our children and they could give it 18 to their children. 19 Like that's -- like in a seventh (7th) 20 generation you don't necessarily say, Well it's just for 21 me. I -- I have to think of my children and their to 22 come for the land that was taken away. And this is 23 primarily why we -- what we were doing. And that wasn't 24 just -- it wasn't just my family, it was for everyone 25 because all our older people couldn't do anything anymore
2291 but they wanted to return to their homeland, you know, to 2 be there. 3 They weren't going to move there, but they 4 wanted to enjoy their -- their last few years in their 5 homeland and also to look after the burial grounds. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It seemed that the burial grounds 8 then were very sacred to the -- the older Native people. 9 Like, I think I was maybe sixty (60) when I went in 10 there. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: And I had -- so this is why I was 13 concerned and you know, I -- when my -- when my dad was 14 passing away, not in the songs somebody wrote about it. 15 I promised him that I would continue the fight to get 16 back our homelands because he wanted to -- to be in his 17 homeland again and -- but this wasn't to be and I said, 18 Well, I would -- I would be the -- I said, I'll do it. 19 Q: Hmm Hmm. 20 A: Never knowing I was going to do it, I 21 said, I'll do it, I'll get it back. We'll see that it's 22 -- I said, Maybe we'll take you back there. I don't even 23 know where he's buried, he's -- he's in a graveyard at 24 Kettle Point, he's very proud and -- so... 25 Q: So, he wasn't able to...
2301 A: He wasn't able to see his homeland 2 again, the -- the land that was promised to him was never 3 to be as with other many people that lived in Stoney 4 Point. 5 Q: Okay. You mention demonstration -- 6 demonstrations aimed at raising awareness with the public 7 and government officials about the land issue with Stoney 8 Point. 9 Were -- were there any other activities 10 during this time around the time of these demonstrations 11 directed at persuading the government to return the land? 12 A: You mean in our neighbourhood or 13 elsewhere? 14 Q: Yes, yeah. In your community, or by 15 your community members. 16 A: I think we -- I think we almost got 17 it back there at one (1) point in time. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: Because they had a big demonstration 20 in the Park. They said they got loss and use, they were 21 paid loss and use of our land. 22 Q: Okay. Are -- are you referring to an 23 agreement that was reached between the Band -- 24 A: And the DND. 25 Q: -- and the Federal Government? Yeah,
2311 okay, and were you living at Kettle Point during this 2 time? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: No, I was else... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Sorry, I just had a lapse. 10 A: Pardon? 11 Q: I just had a brief lapse. To 12 continue, you hadn't returned at this point to Kettle -- 13 to live at Kettle Point at the time of the agreement? 14 A: No, I -- and I don't know where 15 you're going with this. 16 Q: You were describing an agreement 17 earlier or we were talking about an agreement between the 18 Band and the Federal Government, you said it was to 19 compensate for use of the land and... 20 A: Well, I think that comes much later 21 than... 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: I guess we -- we had done all we 24 could to get the land back. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. We understand from other
2321 witnesses that that agreement was ratified in 1982. 2 A: But it wasn't -- I heard about it -- 3 I mean it was -- it was ratified in '82 and it came to be 4 in '85 that -- is that -- that must be what they call the 5 '85 Agreement. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 7 A: Well -- well, they got money for it 8 and they had a vote -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- of which I was notified, but I 11 didn't go. 12 Q: You didn't go? So, you didn't -- 13 A: And it was at the ball park and the - 14 - it wasn't done properly. It was done -- 15 Q: Were you actually at the meeting, 16 Mrs. Manning? 17 A: No, I wasn't, I didn't have to be. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I always had telephone. 20 Q: Okay. And -- 21 A: So, I know that there was people 22 that, instead -- when they voted, they didn't vote 23 properly. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: They just had a show of hands and
2331 hands went up to have more -- to have their money instead 2 of -- like, this guy that got it back, the Chief of the 3 day, he was going to build houses for everybody. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: But instead of building houses, then 6 he -- he gave them back their land. You know, if 7 somebody had -- 8 Q: Their land? 9 A: There was -- no, he gave them money, 10 sorry. 11 Q: That's all right. 12 A: And like, if one person had twelve 13 (12) kids on one -- one side of the road, then they got 14 twelve thousand dollars ($12,000) and if another family 15 had -- had one or two (2), they only got three thousand 16 (3,000), so I don't care which way you slice it, it 17 wasn't a fair deal. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I got seven hundred (700) -- seven 20 hundred dollars ($700) out of it and I still have that 21 cheque. It's still in my bank -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- with -- it said "part payment" on 24 it. 25 Q: And why did you only received part
2341 payment? 2 A: I don't know. I asked, but -- well, 3 I've received monies after, just as lately as a year ago. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: About ten thousand dollars ($10,000). 6 Q: Yeah, and that's after -- after the 7 period that we're looking at here. 8 Were you aware of research that was 9 conducted around that time, or after that agreement by -- 10 into the legal issues or land issues surrounding Stoney 11 Point? 12 A: Well, there was the legal documents 13 right from Day 1, you know, right from the start they 14 were looking at documents galore and we helped look for 15 those. 16 They was -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- all over. They went all over to 19 all the archives -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- in -- like the newspaper offices 22 or what do you call it, the newspapers and looked at the 23 old newspapers. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: And this was concerning Stoney Point.
2351 Q: Okay. 2 A: This is a tedious job, is going from 3 place to place and looking at documents, so you couldn't 4 see anymore and -- and some of them were just 5 disintegrated in your hand. 6 Q: Did you do any of this research 7 yourself? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: Not all of it. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: It was a lot of other people. I 13 think everybody has a -- has some documents around -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: Probably around the Stoney Point 16 issues. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: They're altogether. I know Maynard 19 George has a lots and lots of documents and he had -- he 20 has a -- 21 Q: Maynard T. George? 22 A: M.T. George. 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: He is empty George, yeah. No, I'm 25 just kidding. But -- but he is a good lawyer, and like--
2361 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- if he -- he picked -- he's not a 3 lawyer, but he's -- in his own eyes, he is a lawyer, but 4 he does -- he picked up papers all over the place and he 5 has them and I think he shipped them away somewhere. 6 But he -- he took over all the papers. He 7 has all the legal documents, like you ask him something 8 that happened, he'd just close his eyes for a minute and 9 he would give you the year and the day and -- and, you 10 know. 11 I don't know much about treaties or 12 anything. He knew all about treaties and the maps and, 13 you know, he's a pretty smart man. I have to give him 14 credit for that. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: And he was kind of our leader on the 17 start when we went into Stoney Point and he said, well 18 this is all legal, like I -- 19 Q: Yeah, and we will come to that very 20 shortly. 21 A: Oh, okay, sure. 22 Q: Prior to that, I understand that you 23 visited Stoney Point with Melva and Dan George and 24 others? 25 A: Yes.
2371 Q: Do you recall -- and what was the 2 purpose of that visit? 3 A: Oh, just to try the waters, see if -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- see if there was going to be any - 6 - any fuss about us going in. But I had been in there 7 before -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: Like, I -- I didn't live on the 10 reserve and whenever I wanted to go in, I went in, just a 11 little ways. 12 We used to go and look in the junk pile 13 over there, to see if there -- to see what was there. 14 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. 15 A: I don't know what we were looking 16 for, but we were there. That's what we'd tell the 17 people then we would go and see -- go and see the graves. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: But for some reason, they always let 20 you in. 21 Q: All right. 22 Q: I took my husband there before he 23 died. 24 Q: And did you have any conversation 25 with Dan George about returning to Stoney Point once he
2381 had passed? 2 A: Yes. We were there -- well Clifford 3 was there also. And two (2) of my children. 4 Q: That's Clifford George? 5 A: Clifford George was there and Dan 6 picked out his spot and so did Clifford. He wanted to be 7 buried by the -- in the corner. He had a mission for 8 that corner. And there was some others. I can't -- 9 Melva and Dan and I can't recall that other person. 10 There was another person with us. I don't 11 -- I don't want to say the name because I -- I might be 12 telling you a lie but, you know, there was another 13 person. I have a good idea who that person is but I'm 14 not 100 percent sure. 15 So we sat there all afternoon. We were 16 getting hungry because nobody -- I guess we didn't think 17 they were going to -- they didn't think we were going to 18 be let in so we didn't even take chairs. We were just 19 sitting around. I think Dan and Melva had their chairs. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: We didn't take no lunch but we had a 22 good time back there. Dan picked out his -- his 23 gravesite and so did Cliff. But I never. 24 Q: And we understand from other 25 witnesses that Dan George did pass away and was
2391 eventually buried at Stoney Point. Did you -- in 2 relation to that at that time, do you recall when that 3 visit was that you're describing? 4 Was that shortly before? 5 A: A year or two (2). I'm not exactly - 6 - there was a lot of things happening. We took over 7 before he -- no, it was -- it was before. It was before 8 we took the Camp. 9 Q: Yes. We understand from other 10 witnesses that -- that Mr. George passed away in 19 -- 11 A: Like he went ahead of us. 12 Q: He went -- and did you attend his 13 funeral? 14 A: I think so. I'm pretty sure I did 15 because I -- because there was a lot of people there, 16 standing room. I didn't get up too close because there 17 was so many people there. 18 Q: Okay. Turning now to the 1993 19 occupation of Camp Ipperwash. Can you describe for us 20 the planning -- any planning and research that you 21 undertook or participated in prior to people going into 22 the Army camp in May of 1993? 23 A: That was -- that was when I was 24 saying Maynard, we helped him gather all this information 25 from various places and I think they took over a place in
2401 Brantford. We went and looked in there, archives also. 2 But we didn't find nothing. Wherever we went we looked 3 at archives, you know. 4 Q: Okay. And in terms of the people 5 that were participating in this planning, you mentioned 6 Maynard T. George. 7 Were there others that assisted in this? 8 A: Oh, yes. There was -- well all along 9 -- I told you all along there was people that were -- 10 that were planning a way to get in or a way to get land 11 legally or, you know, so they wouldn't have to come to 12 forcing -- well maybe not forcing, I won't say that 13 because it wasn't a forceful thing. It was -- it was 14 legal. 15 But I -- I wanted to say that, I think it 16 was-- under Melva's when we got that -- when we almost 17 got that land, she was resear -- doing a lot of research 18 and we went to Council. 19 I think she might have been a councillor 20 at that time. They were going to give us the trailer to 21 put in there. 22 Q: Okay. You say that you almost got 23 the land, what do you mean by that? 24 A: Oh, they got the money, they took the 25 money instead.
2411 Q: Okay. So, you're referring to the 2 1985 agreement? 3 A: The agreement, yes, and that was loss 4 -- loss of -- of use. 5 Q: Okay. So, on May 6th of 1993, we 6 understand that a number of people entered into the Army 7 Camp on that day. 8 Did you go into the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: And it was -- well, we had planned 12 prior -- we didn't just -- we didn't just say, you know - 13 -we planned to go in there. And there was about seven 14 (7) of us that went in, originally that -- we just went 15 to the front. Well, there was -- there was my -- 16 Clifford George, Pearl George, my daughter... 17 Q: And who's your daughter? 18 A: Just one (1) of my daughters and -- 19 and myself. 20 Q: And yourself? And there were seven 21 (7) of you all tolled? Can you recall who the other 22 three (3) people were? 23 A: Well, I thought it was Marlene, but 24 somebody told me no, it wasn't her, but there was -- if I 25 asked someone they probably would know.
2421 Q: Just what you can recall right now -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- is -- and we understand that this 4 was twelve (12) years ago, so, it's a very long time and 5 very difficult to remember details. 6 A: Well, I can remember Cliff and Pearl 7 and myself, you know -- you know it was -- we had a 8 little carload. We went in with -- with Clifford driving 9 and I was -- when I went and asked them if they could -- 10 that we were going to -- we were going to camp for the 11 day, they said, Sure, go ahead, there's no problem. 12 Q: Where -- where did you go in? 13 A: We went through the front gate. 14 Q: So, you were speaking to people 15 manning the front gate? 16 A: Yes. And they said there was no 17 problem for us just to go and have a picnic and stay for 18 the day and he said, You go over to the orchard; there 19 was a little orchard there -- apple orchard. He said, 20 You're going to go under the trees over there in that 21 little orchard. But -- but on the outside there was 22 Maynard George, there was Carl George and M. T. George. 23 And they were -- they were -- what do you 24 call that when you -- photocopying papers -- eviction 25 papers. So, they told us, Just go on and park somewhere
2431 and we'll come along later and -- and give those papers 2 to the right people. 3 So -- but I felt that we were too close to 4 the Army Camp. I said, Let's go out on the range and we 5 went out on the range where there was -- there was a 6 place where you could park a car but there was nothing -- 7 no place to go across. This is near -- near Range "D". 8 Q: Can -- if you could identify that on 9 the map it would be very helpful. 10 A: Right in here. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There's a ditch going through there 13 and they had a bridge right in there. It's still there, 14 an iron bridge. 15 Q: Hmm hmm 16 A: And we went right in here is where 17 our first camp -- first camp was. 18 Q: And -- 19 A: That's where we -- we picked a spot 20 and that's where we -- we -- camped. 21 Q: Okay, and -- 22 A: So, we -- we stayed there and then we 23 stayed in our cars, my car never went out of that camp - 24 - for -- for a number of days and I slept next to 25 Clifford, but he -- he was in his car and I was in my
2441 car, so... 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And... 4 Q: And we understand that other people 5 also came in that day? 6 A: Yes, they did, after they served the 7 papers they came in and people are bringing in food and 8 somebody got my medication. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: 'Cause I just found out I was 11 diabetic. 12 Q: And you mentioned that Maynard T. 13 George and Carl George had been off photocopying papers-- 14 A: And -- and Janet -- 15 Q: Yes -- 16 A: But she said her brother was there, 17 too, so -- 18 Q: By "Janet" do you mean Janet Cloud? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Thank you. 21 A: And I don't -- like she said, he was 22 there but I -- I don't remember him being there, but he 23 could have been there. 24 Q: And it's important, as you're 25 testifying here, to just to testify as to what you can
2451 recall directly yourself, okay? 2 And you say that people had served papers. 3 Was that Maynard T. George and Carl George, the papers 4 they'd been photocopying? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: They served them to the people at the 8 -- at the barracks. 9 Q: At the barracks? 10 A: At the gate. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And -- and they posted -- posted them 13 all across the front that this is now disputed land or 14 something -- that this was our land or something. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And, you know, they -- every post had 17 a sign on it and they made some bigger signs and that is 18 the way our occupation first started and it was because 19 we wanted our -- our Elders to go in and into the Army 20 camp -- into the camp or into the -- the Reserve. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: To me, it's still was Reserve for 23 other people, but it is all our Reserve. 24 Q: And -- and you mentioned earlier that 25 other people joined you on the Army camp or on the
2461 Reserve, as you -- as you termed it. 2 A: Yes, soon as they seen us they 3 started coming in and pretty soon they had Tent City all 4 across the Range. 5 Q: Just to back track a little bit, what 6 -- do you recall what time of day it was when you arrived 7 at the main gate with Clifford -- 8 A: Well, it was -- 9 Q: -- George -- 10 A: -- morning, it was early morning. It 11 was, I'd say, about ten o'clock. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: We never had breakfast yet, it was -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: And I was diabetic, so I know it was 16 pretty early and my daughter was concerned, because she 17 said you never had breakfast and she said I'll have to 18 get out some way and I think, like where we were, they 19 cut a hole in the fence and so then they -- they ordered 20 a johnny on the spot -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Right that day, too. We had -- we 23 had one that wasn't inside, it was on the outside. So 24 eventually they had two (2) of them on the outside of the 25 fence.
2471 Q: Okay. 2 A: And this was all done by Maynard and 3 Janet. 4 Q: Janet -- 5 A: But I think that Maynard was the one 6 that -- was the brains behind all that. He -- and I 7 think Janet just kind of, you know, followed his orders, 8 because he -- he had been studying for a long, long time, 9 too. 10 Q: And -- so can you recall roughly how 11 many people entered into the Army camp that day -- 12 A: Oh -- 13 Q: -- through the hole in the fence 14 you've told us about? 15 A: Well, they didn't all come that day. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: But over the course of a week, they - 18 - they came. A week or two (2) but it wasn't that many 19 on the start, just -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And can you recall -- 23 A: Immediate family, like Jan's family 24 and -- 25 Q: By "Jan" you mean Janet Cloud?
2481 A: Janet Cloud and my family. And you 2 know, because Pearl was there too. And, you know what, 3 there was another older person there but I can't recall 4 who it was -- who it is. 5 Q: Okay. And Mr. Clifford George was 6 also -- 7 A: Yeah, Cliff was there. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: And he had somebody looking after 10 him, so he'd -- and I know it was quite cool. It was 11 nice when we arrived but it come up a north wind and we 12 were pretty cold and they had to make a fire on all night 13 and they had young -- young -- younger people making fire 14 for us. 15 But even though we sat around with 16 blankets over us. I was still cold. I had to crawl back 17 into my car and I started the car every little while. 18 And our intentions -- it was like those people they were 19 preachers and they still do a lot of praying. 20 And our intentions was always a good 21 intention that we would, like a last ditch stand, and we 22 were going to open this up for like other -- I always 23 remember think about that because they used to pray about 24 it that other people could go home before they all passed 25 away. Now there's not too many. Since then there's been
2491 a lot of people that's gone on and never knowing their 2 homeland which they -- they grew up on. 3 Q: And during -- on the first day other 4 than the conversation you had with military personnel at 5 the main gate, can you recall having any other 6 conversations with members in the military about your 7 entry into the camp? Or the entry of other people into 8 camp? 9 A: No, I never had any. Never had any, 10 but I do recall talking to the media. 11 Q: Okay. So you had mentioned that your 12 family accompanied you or joined you on the ranges. Did 13 you set up a camp or -- 14 A: Yes, we set up a camp but not 15 immediately. We went right back to where -- by that 16 stone quarry. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Where your family had 18 originally held land? 19 A: Yes. And we still have our -- we 20 still have a little shed back there anyway. 21 Q: Okay. And during -- you said that 22 people joined over the next week or two (2) came and -- 23 A: Yeah. Well, see my -- my kids were 24 all working somewhere. They just took time off to -- 25 just to come for a short while. And that's the same
2501 today. My kids are all working, they're going to school 2 and I have -- my grandson brought me here. 3 That was the same then. Everybody was 4 working. And they couldn't afford to -- Doleen 5 (phonetic) just happened to be down from -- from wherever 6 she was. And when we got that call, today's the day 7 we're going in. 8 Q: And who did you receive that phone 9 call from? 10 A: From Janet. 11 Q: Janet Cloud? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And Doleen for the record is your 14 daughter? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And she accompanied you into 17 the Army camp? 18 A: Yes. She drove my car and I -- I 19 rode with -- we got in with Clifford and she was behind 20 us. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And I -- and I had some things in my 23 car too. So my car had to go in with me because there 24 was some -- some necessities I had. 25 Q: Some necessities that you didn't --
2511 that you needed to have with you? 2 A: Yes. But I didn't know that was the 3 day we were going in til that call in the morning. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: It was fairly early. We just got in 6 and -- and came. Came to the main gates at the Army 7 camp. And -- we always maintained it was peaceful all 8 along. Like we didn't say hurtful words to the people 9 that were there at the main gate. 10 And it was pretty good when we first 11 arrived. Like everybody was pulling for each other and 12 we went all over. We went, you know, went to different 13 places to ask for help just to be able to stay there and 14 asked for help for our lodgings. 15 Like we -- everybody had a little trailer 16 or a little something. My son bought mine for me. 17 Q: And so you'd mentioned earlier that 18 there was a tent city, at first? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay, did your family set up tents 21 and a camp to stay at? 22 A: Yes, right behind that quarry they 23 had worked a long time, eh? 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: Somebody brought three (3) of those
2521 hedgehogs and -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- you can cut all like great big -- 4 like very big bush like that, and -- and it -- well, they 5 had to do all that. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And it was some people that -- they 8 were -- they were not natives, but they owned those or 9 bought one of them or some -- rented them, I don't know, 10 but they -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: They made our camp for us. So it's 13 still clear where they took those big hedgehogs. 14 Q: Okay, and eventually you moved 15 trailers and -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- I think you mentioned, and moved 18 into trailers to be more comfortable? 19 A: Yes, I -- they moved in a trailer for 20 me. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: And I did -- I did stay in a tent, 23 also. I first -- my first few days was -- was in a tent 24 and they -- they used to have to really pad it, because I 25 -- I got cold easy and --
2531 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- and they made sure I stayed warm. 3 Q: During -- during the first month that 4 you were there, do you recall any contact with Military 5 personnel? 6 A: Oh, yes, yes. They used to go by on 7 the main road and they used to chant away that we forgot 8 to pay our taxes. Sounded kind of nice the way they sang 9 it, you know, and -- 10 Q: Were they marching or jogging -- 11 A: Yes, they were marching and they were 12 chanting at the same time. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: And saying that we forgot to pay our 15 taxes. I said, Well, I'm a taxpayer. I already paid my 16 taxes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And I used to try and yell them, but 19 I know they couldn't hear me anyway, because they were 20 too busy chanting away. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: But they were trying to intimidate us 23 and -- and I remember that we went away to -- we had a 24 meeting in Oaksend (phonetic) and Grand Bend -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.
2541 A: With who, I don't even remember, but 2 it was pertaining Stoney Point and us staying there, but 3 it was legal. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: And everything we done so far was 6 legal and -- and somebody rented this place for us and 7 invited us there for a meeting. And -- and one (1) of my 8 daughters, she was at camp looking after all the kids and 9 -- and while we went to this meeting. 10 And those guys were going by and chanting 11 away and hollering as usual. And she took ill, she had 12 to have her gallstones removed, her gall bladder. 13 And she had to dress all them kids and 14 drive them into Sarnia and get someone to look after 15 them. And she went to the hospital and had surgery while 16 we were at Oaksend -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- trying to have meetings to get our 19 land returned. And no, I don't remember, I don't recall 20 what MP we were talking to there. 21 But we did -- I remember talking to Roger 22 Galloway (phonetic) time and time again. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: He always said, Well, you know I'm 25 doing all I could. I'm writing the letters and phoning
2551 different people. You're going to get your land back 2 pretty soon. 3 And we believed him. 4 Q: And do you recall having 5 conversations, as well, with a woman named Rosemary Err 6 (phonetic)? 7 A: Well, yes. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: But I remember -- not myself -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Like I remember Janet talking to her 12 all the time. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: But she didn't seem -- like, when I 15 listened to her, she didn't seem like she was really 16 sincere -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: And I didn't waste any effort talking 19 to her, because I figured, well, she's not going to do 20 anything anyway. Roger Galloway, on the other hand, 21 seemed like the kind of guy that would -- he was going to 22 do something about it. 23 But I think he was a lot worse than -- so 24 it was -- the poor judgment of people, I think. I think 25 Rosemary Err tried or might have tried.
2561 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: At least Janet thought the world of 3 her. 4 Q: And can you recall meetings amongst 5 the people occupying the Camp at that time in a building 6 that we've heard other witnesses refer to as the 7 Community Hall or Argument Hall? 8 A: Well, we used to have our own 9 meetings. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: When we first arrived there we had, 12 like, Janet, she -- she -- her first place was in -- 13 right near that bridge. I'll show you where it is. 14 Q: Okay 15 A: There's a -- there's a -- the bridge 16 here, yeah. Take it off there, will you? 17 Q: Mr. Millar's just putting it back up 18 for us. 19 A: He don't want me to tell that story, 20 that's why. Yeah, so -- so there's this here -- Mud 21 Creek is the name of it. 22 Q: That's just to the east of the 23 grenade range? 24 A: Yeah, yeah and she was right in here; 25 right in "D" range, right -- there's a bridge there. She
2571 -- they camped in there for -- for quite a while. 2 Q: For the record, Mrs. Manning is 3 describing an area to the immediate east of the creek 4 that's to the east of the grenade range. 5 A: To the east? To the west of the -- 6 well, maybe they would -- okay, I don't know what you're 7 talking about, but -- 8 Q: It would have been the west of the 9 stone quarry. 10 A: -- this is -- as I say, this is Mud 11 Creek here -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- and this is also known as "D" 14 Range and this is -- 15 Q: That's the area surrounding the -- 16 the stone quarry. 17 A: Yeah, that's the stone quarry and 18 this is where we had our camp right in there. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: Yeah, right -- right all through -- 21 right where the red area is; that's where we had our 22 camp. And Janet and her group had a camp right in there 23 when we first arrived and they stayed there for a long 24 time, they had -- they had a, what you call, little 25 building. We brought in a building --
2581 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- just to make a -- somebody -- I 3 guess somebody said, If you take a little building in, 4 it's -- it's yours, so you had to have a little building. 5 And so they brought that little building in and that's 6 where all the supplies were kept. Like, people would 7 bring supplies, like, and then if you wanted some, so you 8 went to that little building and picked up your -- 9 whatever you needed. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: So, they stayed there a good while. 12 And we -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And -- and in that -- it 14 was in that building that people -- that you had meetings 15 amongst yourselves? 16 A: Yes, we -- we had meetings there just 17 with ourselves for a long time. 18 Q: And can you recall -- can you recall 19 having meetings with anyone else in that -- in that 20 building, police officers, for example? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? 23 A: There was no police officers, there 24 was just us. The -- the original people that went in and 25 Carl was there and it was just a small -- just what small
2591 concerns we had is what we talked about. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: And I have some of them tapes and I - 4 - I know that -- well, I showed you a couple of the tapes 5 that -- that had -- but that's some place that place -- 6 one (1) of the things that -- a lot of the meetings took 7 place there. 8 Q: For the record -- 9 A: And we didn't have our Argument Hall 10 up yet. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: That didn't come til -- til we got 13 some -- some -- somebody to give us some land -- some 14 materials to build that. 15 Q: But -- 16 A: It was quite a while later that come 17 about, but we used to have our meetings there and they 18 had a big tent. We used to go and sit and -- and have 19 meetings. 20 Q: For the record, Mrs. Manning is 21 referring to a tape produced by the Canadian Auto 22 Workers, which I believe has been -- okay, it -- it has 23 been produced. 24 All right, I'll address this again in 25 the morning as well. Okay, I understand that you also
2601 participated in a walk to Ottawa in 1993, during that -- 2 A: I certainly did. I walked from 3 Stoney Point to Ottawa, believe it or not. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And what was -- what 5 was your objective in doing that? 6 A: No, I didn't walk all the way there. 7 I just drove my car to Ottawa. So -- but I did 8 participate because we had to have places to stay at 9 night and Pearl and I kind of went ahead and -- and I 10 asked for places to stay like I think it was OAC picnic 11 grounds that let us stay for nothing. 12 And some people heard of us coming and 13 they would invite us to their homes, different places. 14 And we were well received along the way but we -- there 15 was some of them boys that walked all the way. 16 Like they had blisters galore. I think 17 Glenn and -- I know that Danny -- Dan, he walked all the 18 way. But they're young fellows. 19 Q: And what was your objective in doing 20 -- in having that march? 21 A: To -- to make aware -- to bring 22 awareness to the people, to the non-Native people and 23 also to the Native people because we went through all the 24 reserves. We took the Number 7 all the way to Ottawa. I 25 think we just jogged off a bit in Toronto there. So --
2611 but it was -- we took the Number 7 and we put -- we had a 2 lot of pamphlets that were about Stoney Point and about 3 our plight. 4 We would like if they would support us in 5 getting our land back. And the reserves they, you know, 6 we stayed there maybe two (2) days because they would 7 raise money for us to carry on. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: Have a blanket dance and they would 10 feed us, have a feast for us. And we were -- we had some 11 pretty good places in the white communities too. I know 12 one (1) place there was a like a big dance floor. They 13 had all the, you know, they had a real good meal. 14 And, you know, they wanted people to have 15 a drink too. And so I thought it was, you know, nobody 16 drank but -- nobody that I seen anyway. I don't think 17 they offered them enough they might have offered them a 18 glass of wine or some kind of thing. 19 It was a swanky place here out in the 20 middle of nowhere but I mean there were people there, 21 good people that took us in. 22 Q: And what was your -- and you 23 eventually arrived in Ottawa? 24 A: Well, yes. 25 Q: And what happened when you arrived in
2621 Ottawa? 2 A: Oh, there was nothing. We had a big 3 party when we arrived in Ottawa right on Parliament hill. 4 A lot of picture taking and but there was no media, there 5 was no, there was no one. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: There was just First Nations people. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: So I guess they all -- they knew we 10 were coming so they all went and barricaded themselves 11 somewhere. But we never seen them. We looked around, 12 but it's so high we looked all around so we stayed there 13 for -- for a while. 14 And had -- we had a picnic there. You 15 know, there was a lot of our people from different -- 16 like our relatives. They drove up there because they 17 couldn't walk -- walk with us and we received a lot of 18 gifts along the way. 19 Like we received a lot of feathers and a 20 lot of -- lot of different things and blankets and 21 donations. Like we took Bert's van up and it was right 22 full of stuff. So I mean we touched the hearts of some 23 people. It wasn't futile. It was -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: We -- I thought we done very well --
2631 even for the -- even for -- what, you know, getting up 2 and going there and getting along, because every morning 3 we would get up, every single morning, you had -- when we 4 got up and the first thing we done was -- was greet -- 5 and greet each other and we smoked a pipe and we drank 6 the water and ate the berries, every single day, even -- 7 even the Christians. 8 Everybody -- everybody done it except for 9 maybe, Pearl. We stuck here -- she didn't want that 10 tobacco taste in her mouth. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: So this is the way we done -- or even 13 if we didn't do anything, we made -- we had closer 14 contact with each other and we prayed every day, every 15 morning before we even ate. 16 So a lot of people, if they weren't 17 dressed, they just got up and ran for the -- for the 18 sunrise service. 19 Q: And you referred earlier to Bert's 20 van, that's Bert Manning's van? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And he's your son? 23 A: Yes. He just loaned us his van -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: Somebody else drove it.
2641 Q: And -- so turning back to when you 2 arrived in Ottawa, did you -- did you make any efforts to 3 meet with politicians, federal politicians at -- while 4 you were at Parliament Hill? 5 A: Well, we tried to, different people 6 tried to. 7 Q: And were those efforts successful? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. So you -- 10 A: I was -- I was -- I didn't plan this, 11 myself -- I never talked with anyone. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: I just -- could say -- walked a 14 little ways. I was pretty winded by then, I -- when I 15 walked a last -- the last mile of the way, I guess you 16 would say. 17 And by then I was -- didn't care who I was 18 meeting, as long as I sat down and caught my breath at 19 that time. Somebody else drove my car. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: So... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I'm moving on to a slightly different
2651 topic area, which -- 2 A: What time's your -- what time do you 3 close here? 4 Q: Usually 4:30, so I can press on for 5 another half an hour or so. 6 A: What time is it? 7 Q: It's 4:25, 4:24. I'm in your hands, 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's up to-- 10 THE WITNESS: Well, I think I've had 11 about enough of this. 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: I was here all morning and 14 nobody asked me a single thing and, you know, I was at -- 15 I'm not late and -- 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Hmm hmm. 17 THE WITNESS: -- I think it's 4:30, I 18 think I need my rest, 'cause I have a -- I have a swollen 19 leg and I don't want to overdo it. 20 If I'm going to come back again, I want to 21 come back and be able to converse with you. 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mrs. 23 Manning. 24 THE WITNESS: Or answer your... 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think
2661 we'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: All right, thank 3 you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 5 something you want to do before we leave; some 6 housekeeping matter, no? 7 Okay, we're adjourned now until tomorrow 8 morning, nine o'clock. 9 Thank you very much. 10 11 (WITNESS RETIRES) 12 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you for listening. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until 16 tomorrow. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, April the 7th, at 19 9:00 a.m. 20 21 --- Upon adjourning at 4:25 p.m. 22 23 24 25
2671 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 8 _____________________ 9 Dustin Warnock 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25