11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 5th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) (np) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) (np) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 James K. McDonald ) Larry Vincent George Sr. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 LARRY VINCENT GEORGE SR., Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 11 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 168 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 172 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 177 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Adam Goodman 181 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 183 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 204 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 224 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 230 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. James McDonald 237 16 17 STANLEY FRANK KOROSEC, Sworn 18 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 246 19 20 21 22 Certificate of Transcript 332 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1287 Resume of Larry Vincent George Senior. 12 4 P-1288 Handwritten notebook. Excerpts of Cst. 5 Vince George, May, 1993 to June 1995. 28 6 P-1289 Series of Photographs (14) taken by 7 Vince George. 59 8 P-1290 Evidence of Vince George, June 02, 1995, 9 August 22, 1995, and August 08, 2003 and 10 handwritten notebook entries of Cst. 11 Vince George. 69 12 P-1291 Document Number 2004077. Statement of 13 Vince George and handwritten notebook 14 entries (July 24, 1995, September 27, 15 1995; October 07, 1995; November 01, 16 1995, November 14, 1995). 77 17 P-1292 Handwritten notebook excerpts of Cst. 18 Vince George, August 03, 1995, September 19 29, 1995. 82 20 P-1293 Transcript and audio CD of Region 01, 21 Vince George, Comm Centre, September 07, 22 1995, 01:24:42, Chatham Communications 23 Centre, Logger tape number 147, Track 05, 24 Disc 05 of 20. 150 25
91 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1294 Document Number 2005531. Resume of 4 Stan Korosec. 247 5 P-1295 Document Number 2005162. OPP 6 handwritten notebook entries of Stan 7 Korosec, August 24, 1993. 263 8 P-1296 Document Number 2003658. OPP Statement 9 of Stan Korosec re. Military Helicopter 10 shooting incident, typed statement 11 August 24, 1993. 264 12 P-1297 Document Number 2005491. OPP Occurrence 13 Report, Korosec is notified of incident 14 as supervising NCO, June 29, 1994. 269 15 P-1298 Document Number 2005577. Handwritten 16 notebook entries of Stan Korosec, 17 February 26, 1995. 271 18 P-1299 Document Number 2005577. Handwritten 19 notebook entries of Stan Korosec, August 20 07 to 10, 1995, August 07, 1995. 275 21 P-1300 Document Number 2005576. Handwritten 22 notebook entries of Stan Korosec, 23 August 07 to 14, 1995. 277 24 25
101 List of Exhibits (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-1301 Document Number 2000833. OPP 4 handwritten Interview Report by Stan 5 Korosec, August 07 to 10, 1995. 281 6 P-1302 Document Number 2005529. OPP 7 handwritten notebook entries of Stan 8 Korosec, August 29 to September 16, 9 1995. 285 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. Good morning, everybody. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, we call 11 next Larry Vincent George Sr. And Mr. George will swear 12 on the Bible, Mr. Registrar. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. George. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, could you state your 16 name in full for the record please. 17 THE WITNESS: Larry Vincent George, Sr. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 19 20 LARRY VINCENT GEORGE SR., Sworn 21 22 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: Mr. George, you were good enough this 24 morning, to provide me with a copy of your CV. I have 25 distributed a copy, Commissioner. There's a copy in
121 front of you as well. You'll note that there is certain 2 personal information that I've redacted before copying 3 and distributing to My Friends. 4 I would take Mr. George through this very 5 briefly this morning, however, before doing so perhaps we 6 might have that marked as the first exhibit of this -- of 7 this morning. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1287, Your Honour. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1287: Resume of Larry Vincent 12 George Senior. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 15 Q: The first thing I note on your -- on 16 your resume is that you hold the current position of 17 Sergeant within the Ontario Provincial Police. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I'll address you therefore as 20 Sergeant George, is that okay? 21 A: If you like, yes. 22 Q: Let me just go back -- but you were - 23 - you were first of all born and raised in Kettle Point 24 First Nation and you've lived in the Kettle Point First 25 Nation up until the age of twenty-four (24), as I
131 understand? 2 A: Yes, that's correct. 3 Q: Your parents are Robert George who 4 we've also known and heard of within this Inquiry by 5 another name and that is 'Knobby'. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Your mother is Sylvia 8 George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And she was originally from the 11 Chippewas of Sarnia? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: You worked, as I understand it as 14 well, Sergeant George, firstly as a social worker in the 15 early 70's with the Kettle Point First Nation? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you joined the OPP in 1975 and 18 I'll take you now to your -- your resume; that is P-1287. 19 I see that on the second page of that you were initially 20 stationed at the Sombra OPP Detachment which is along the 21 St. Clair River? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I take it as part of that you would 24 have had policing duties in the Walpole Island First 25 Nation?
141 A: Yes, we provided support to them. 2 Q: Your role at that -- at that point in 3 time I take it was a -- as a general law enforcement 4 officer? 5 A: Yes, general duties. 6 Q: I wonder if you might just tell us 7 briefly if you would, sir, about your experience in First 8 Nations policing. I take it as an OPP officer and -- and 9 some of the policing duties you've just confirmed for us 10 with Walpole Island First Nation you had some interaction 11 there? 12 A: Yes. Yes, I've always had some 13 dealings and working with the First Nations people 14 throughout my career. I have brothers that worked with 15 the Kettle Point Police, cousins that worked with the 16 Walpole Island Police, et cetera. 17 Q: In fact, we've had one (1) of your 18 brothers here as a witness in these proceedings and that 19 is Ron George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Inspector George? 22 A: Yes, he's an inspector with the OPP. 23 Q: You mentioned as well you have 24 another brother that's also a member of the OPP? 25 A: Yes, I have a brother, Luke George,
151 who's with the Lambton Detachment. 2 Q: Following your -- your term at the 3 Sombra Detachment I understand you left there in 1984? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you were transferred then to the 6 Forest Detachment? 7 A: Yes, I -- I was asked by my brothers 8 to -- there was a position available there, an opening, 9 so my brothers who were working for the Kettle Point 10 Police Department at that time encouraged me to come 11 across so I did. I transferred to Forest. 12 Q: I'm going to ask you if you just 13 might speak up a bit. I'm not sure if -- if the recorder 14 is getting -- getting this. 15 If I turn then again to your resume, and 16 I'm just looking at the entries under 1984 to 1996, 17 Sergeant George, in 1990 you were assigned to duties at - 18 - of Ipperwash Community Policing Officer during the West 19 Ipperwash Beach land claim matters, 1990 and onwards. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And subsequently you were assigned to 22 assist with the investigation on the West Ipperwash land 23 claim dispute? 24 A: Yes. Correct. 25 Q: And might you tell us about that,
161 again just briefly if you would, please? 2 A: The -- that was a land claim dispute 3 between the Kettle Point First Nations and the cottage 4 owners, West Ipperwash Beach at the end of Concession 14 5 or Rawlings Road, whatever it's referred to, in Bosanquet 6 Township. And there was a -- a land claim issue in 7 relation to the cottage property and the -- the travelled 8 portion which would be the beach. 9 Anyway, 1990 it came to a head. The 10 cottagers had begun to erect a post to prevent people 11 from using the beach and so the Band took issue with that 12 and it -- it eventually came to a crisis. We were sent 13 down there to -- to investigate it. 14 I was sent down to take photographs and 15 make notes as to the people involved because we knew 16 ahead of time that the Band would be pulling the post 17 back out. So as a result of that there were a number of 18 charges laid. 19 Q: And as I understand the posts that 20 you've described were erected by the -- by the cottagers 21 to impede the flow of traffic along the beach? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it -- and it is that the members 24 from the Kettle Point First Nation took issue? 25 A: Yes.
171 Q: And we'll probably come to that, I 2 think, as we go through some of your notes during that 3 period of time and I just wanted to touch on that briefly 4 at this point. 5 Following your tenure at the Forest 6 Detachment I understand that you then went to work for 7 the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario at Casino -- 8 Casino Rama? 9 A: Yes, in 1996 I applied for a position 10 at Casino Rama with the Alcohol and Gaming Commission 11 which was fairly new at that time and was successful in 12 obtaining a position inside the casino. 13 Q: And essentially your duties at that 14 point I take it were policing the gaming activities 15 within the facility itself? 16 A: Yes. We -- we were an enforcement 17 unit of about ten (10) personnel inside basically 18 enforcing cheating at play initiatives. 19 Q: And I note further, from your resume, 20 Sergeant George, that in 1998 you went to the London 21 Registration and Enforcement Unit, again with the Alcohol 22 and Gaming Commission? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You stayed there for approximately 25 one (1) year, I take it, from your resume?
181 A: Yes. It was for approximately one 2 (1) year and then I went back into uniform from there and 3 got a position back in Forest. 4 Q: And at that point in time in 1999 you 5 were promoted to your current rank of sergeant. 6 A: Yes. I believe I went on an acting 7 position -- acting sergeant position for a year and then 8 in 2000 I was promoted. 9 Q: All right. And in 2000 and 2002, you 10 became the platoon sergeant as I understand. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that would be for the Lambton 13 County? 14 A: Yes. They amalgamated in Lambton 15 County around that time so most of the supervising staff 16 ended up at the General Headquarters in Petrolia. So we 17 supervised a platoon of ten (10) to eleven (11) officers 18 from that location. 19 Q: And as of 2003, Sergeant George, I 20 note from your employment history that you are involved 21 in what is -- you've described as the Integrated Support 22 Services Unit. 23 A: Yes, that's where I'm presently 24 working. 25 Q: And can you tell us about that if you
191 would, again briefly? 2 A: Yes. That's a -- that's a team of 3 six (6) RCMP Members and six (6) OPP Members that were -- 4 they're in partnership with the stand alone First Nations 5 Police Departments throughout the Province. And our job 6 mainly is to offer support to First Nations department 7 police services in terms of community -- community 8 support, that type of thing. 9 Q: Are you also involved with First 10 Nations themselves in terms of any policing activities? 11 A: Not operational stuff. We're -- 12 we're more community services type support. 13 Q: Okay. And just before I leave this 14 area with you, Sergeant, I understand that in 2004 you 15 had training as a Facilitator and Restorative Justice and 16 that's something that you have a keen interest in. 17 A: Yes. I -- I took a keen interest in 18 alternative measures in terms of policing and judicial 19 matters; reading some of Rupert Ross' books and then I 20 had an opportunity to get trained at the Cape Croker 21 First Nations as a facilitator. 22 Following that I was -- I was trained as a 23 trainer to deliver that training. 24 Q: All right. Let me just move then if 25 I may, Sergeant George, to the events around Camp
201 Ipperwash and I want to talk to you a little bit about 2 the events up to 1993. 3 Before that I wonder if you would tell us 4 about what your connection is, as you understand it, to 5 the lands that have been described variously as CFB 6 Ipperwash or Stoney Point. 7 A: Well that -- that land -- I grew up 8 knowing as our ancestral territory through my father. He 9 was, I think, ten (10) years old when he was moved off of 10 that. 11 Q: Okay. You were told I take it about 12 the expropriation of that -- that territory in 1942? 13 A: Yes. We were told of that 14 expropriation with a -- with a promise attached to that 15 to return it when -- when the Army was finished using it. 16 Q: And I understand that you would have 17 had occasion to attend at those lands for the purposes 18 of, among other things, visiting the -- the cemetery 19 that's located at the Army Camp. 20 A: Yes. As a child I -- I visited the 21 cemetery within the Base itself. I think my father had 22 young brothers and sisters that have passed and were 23 buried there. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: And as well I recall my grandfather
211 taking me through the -- the Provincial Park to get water 2 and so forth. So we had access to -- to both. 3 Q: All right. Just on that note, you 4 mentioned the Provincial Park, had you ever been advised 5 or did it ever come to your attention that there was a 6 burial site within the Provincial Park boundaries? 7 A: No. Not up until I think 1995 when I 8 was -- 9 Q: Okay, we'll -- and we'll come to 10 that. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: You'd also had occasion to take on 13 various jobs at Camp Ipperwash during your -- your teens 14 perhaps? 15 A: Yes, as a teenager I obtained various 16 jobs there working as a dishwasher, a pot scrubber, a -- 17 I worked with the engineers cutting grass and so forth 18 and surveying, so. 19 Q: Okay. Dishwasher and pot scrubber, 20 those are separate jobs I take it? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Not in my house. 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. Okay. 25 A: Pot scrubber being the worst.
221 Q: Had you been aware of any activities 2 that either your family or relatives had been involved in 3 with respect to seeking the return of those lands as 4 you've -- you've indicated that there was a promise of 5 some -- of some nature that the lands would be restored? 6 A: Yes. As early as the 1970's I recall 7 when I was employed by the Kettle Point Band there was 8 some interest in it at that point. In fact I was 9 interviewed by -- by I think it was a Chief Shawkence at 10 that time. They were looking to interview people 11 regarding their involvement, work activities and so forth 12 on the Base itself. 13 And then father was always interested in 14 that property so he -- he often, you know, protested and 15 so forth creating an awareness for the return of 16 property. 17 Q: And when you say, "protested," what 18 can you tell us about that? 19 A: Well, protesting, I mean, to an 20 extent he would -- he would attend, let's say, Highway 21 21 at Army Camp Road and -- with a group of people and with 22 our placards and so forth and walk up and down the 23 shoulder of the highway trying to create awareness for 24 the return. 25 Q: Was there any interaction to your --
231 to your knowledge or recollection as between your father 2 and the others who may be involved in this and the 3 Military? 4 A: You mean aunts and uncles and so 5 forth? 6 Q: Yeah. Who -- who lives there? 7 A: Yeah, well -- yes, aunts and uncles. 8 Dan and Melva George were active in that. Maynard, 9 Travis George were active in that. Cliff George, you 10 know, active in trying to create awareness for the return 11 of the Camp. 12 Q: All right. And -- and what if any 13 was your involvement in this? 14 A: Well, I would go and support them. I 15 -- I wouldn't pick up the placard or anything because I 16 was a police officer but I would go and support them and 17 stand there with them. 18 Q: Did you have any involvement insofar 19 as policing those activities whether by way of traffic 20 control or any such -- 21 A: No, no. 22 Q: We are told during these proceedings, 23 Sergeant George, that during the -- during the 70's is 24 when this interest became initially more visible, if I 25 could put it that way?
241 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that is the type of thing that 3 you've just described for us; there was these sorts of 4 protests or creating awareness, as you've described it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did that change at any point in 7 time? 8 A: In terms of...? 9 Q: In terms of either lessening or 10 increasing that sort of activity? 11 A: No, I -- I think -- yes, it -- it 12 increased. In the 70's they interviewed me, like I said, 13 regarding my involvement as an employee of the Army Base 14 of the Department of National Defence and then I think in 15 '93 it began to intensify. 16 Q: We -- we understand during the course 17 of these proceedings, Sergeant George, that in May of '93 18 there were members of the Kettle and Stony Point First 19 Nation that entered and -- and occupied CFB Ipperwash as 20 it was then... 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Had you been aware that this 23 event would be taking place? 24 A: I -- I can't recall whether I knew in 25 advance that they were going to move onto the range area
251 of the Base. I can't say for sure whether I was aware of 2 that but I became aware of it after it happened. 3 Q: All right. And do you know some of 4 the people that -- that did actually move onto the -- 5 onto the range as you've described it? 6 A: Yes, I think -- I can recall my 7 parents taking a trailer to go down and symbolically move 8 back onto the land with the trailer and so forth. Cliff 9 George, I think maybe the Mannings were involved there 10 and I'm not sure if my aunt, Dan and Melva were involved 11 but... 12 Q: And we're talking about the initial 13 move onto the range area -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- in '90 -- May of '93? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. You have a number of 18 other relatives that were occupying that area, some of 19 whom we've 20 -- we've heard from in these -- in this Inquiry. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Roderick George? 23 A: Roderick George, otherwise known as 24 Judas, yes. 25 Q: And what relation is he to you?
261 A: He would be a first cousin. 2 Q: All right. You've already mentioned 3 Dan and Melva; that would be your aunt and uncle, I take 4 it? 5 A: Aunt and uncle, yes. 6 Q: Okay. Reg George Sr.? 7 A: Reg George Sr., I -- I don't know, he 8 moved on, but I think subsequent to that symbolic moving 9 back on there were -- were some of his children moved on. 10 Q: And who might those be? 11 A: I think Pierre and Caroline. 12 Q: Right. And that would include Dudley 13 George as well? 14 A: Dudley, yes. Dudley George, yeah. 15 Q: What was your relationship given that 16 you were a uniformed officer at that time, with your 17 relatives who had moved onto the Base? 18 A: I think my relationship was still 19 fairly good up until 1995. 20 Q: All right. Had you ever gone there 21 to visit or have any interaction with them? 22 A: Oh yeah. I had interaction, 23 conversations with -- with people that were on the 24 inside. 25 Q: Your brother Ron was here to testify.
271 He was not an OPP officer at the time as we -- as we 2 understand from him. 3 A: Yes, I believe he was Band lawyer at 4 that time. 5 Q: Okay. During the period of 1993 to 6 1995, Sergeant George, did you have any involvement again 7 in policing the Army Camp during that period? 8 A: Yes. I would have been responding to 9 calls as they were happening. 10 Q: All right. One sec please. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Sergeant George, I'm going to ask you 15 to speak up. Apparently some of the -- some of the 16 parties cannot hear you. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Thank you. Commissioner, what I -- 19 what I would like to do is I'd like to refer the -- the - 20 - Sergeant George to his notes and you have them in -- in 21 your binder at Tab 1. There is a series of notes that 22 Sergeant George had recently provided to us. 23 These have been distributed electronically 24 to the parties and they are redacted versions. And 25 perhaps before I do that, then refer -- that is, refer
281 Sergeant George to these notes, I'd ask that they be made 2 the next exhibit please. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1288, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry. 5 Which book of notes is that your putting in now? The one 6 at Tab 1? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: The one at Tab 1, 8 that's correct, Commissioner. And they go from May the 9 30th of 1993 to July 17th of 1994. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: That exhibit number 11 again, Mr. Registrar: 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1288. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1288. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1288: Handwritten notebook. 16 Excerpts of Cst. Vince 17 George, May, 1993 to June 18 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 21 Q: And, Sergeant George, I don't -- I 22 don't expect to take you through these in any particular 23 detail but there's a number of areas that I want to touch 24 upon with you, partly because it -- it is your notes, you 25 produced these as -- in relation to the Ipperwash matter.
291 A: Yes. 2 Q: And secondly, because some of them 3 are quite difficult to read. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And if I could ask you to refer to 6 your entries and at May 30th of 1993 of your -- of your 7 notes, that is P-1288, pages 87, I see the page number at 8 the bottom on the first -- through to page 94. 9 Those all deal with the -- the 30th of May 10 1993. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I take it from -- from the review 13 of these, that you were investigating a break and enter 14 in the -- in the Ipperwash area. 15 A: Yes. I believe this was in the West 16 Ipperwash beach area. 17 Q: Perhaps I could just have you 18 describe again, in general terms, that investigation and 19 what became of it. 20 A: Yeah. This -- this investigation was 21 in the West Ipperwash beach area in behind what I know as 22 Arbour Acres on West Ipperwash beach area. It's right 23 across from the Kettle Point Reserve. 24 A number of youth had committed a break 25 and enter and my investigation as a result of that led to
301 charges with some of these youth. 2 It involved some of the people that are 3 presently now or were inside the Camp. 4 Q: And so you would have had attendances 5 inside the Camp to -- to speak to people as part of this 6 investigation? 7 A: No, I don't -- I'm not so sure that 8 they were inside the Camp at this time. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Just the last page of that, before we 14 -- we -- before the first blue page and -- that separates 15 your notes, Sergeant George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Looks like Wednesday, June the 2nd of 18 1993. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the entry at the bottom of the 21 page, "16:15 hours", I take it that is in association, 22 still, with the previous B&E occurrence that you'd 23 investigated? 24 A: Yes, that would be one of the 25 subjects that were -- that was charged.
311 Q: All right. Perhaps I'd ask that -- 2 and I will be asking from time to time that Mr. Registrar 3 simply redacts some of those names in the same fashion as 4 we've redacted other names, those that haven't been 5 called as witnesses or not otherwise involved. 6 There's just a couple of names at the 7 bottom of that page, Mr. Registrar. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: If I can ask you to turn over to the 12 -- to the next page of your notes, Sergeant George. 13 A: June 9th? 14 Q: Is that -- that is June the 9th of -- 15 Wednesday, June the 9th, 1993? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And it looks like, again you are -- 18 there's an entry there as well, Mr. Registrar, at 08:40 19 hours, "Spoke with Mr..." and there's a name there, I'd 20 ask you to redact that as well, please. 21 A: Yes, that's -- that's in relation to 22 an individual complaining that were -- Natives were 23 wandering around, four o'clock in the morning. And this 24 -- this call came to me at 8:40 a.m. that morning. 25 Q: Okay. Did anything become of that
321 investigation or your attendance at that complaint? 2 A: No, I don't believe so. I mean, the 3 conversations were such that I implied to him that he 4 should be calling at four o'clock in the morning, so that 5 we can attend to these matters then as opposed to 8:40 6 a.m. in the morning, four (4) hours later. 7 Q: And by that point in time, I take it, 8 whatever he complained of had resolved itself? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. If you can turn nextly just 11 to, two (2) pages over, there's page 92 at the bottom of 12 the page. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: That's Sunday, 4th of July 1993. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And this is the matter that you had 19 described earlier to us, is it not, the West Ipperwash 20 beach relationships? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I take it that this is your 23 investigation in some fashion, and perhaps I should just 24 ask you what -- what this is about? 25 A: Would that be the Sunday, 4th of July
331 '93 at 17:54? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yes. That had to do with the Kettle 4 Point police responding to a call on West Ipperwash 5 beach; probably for us, they were doing that call. 6 And I was dispatched to assist him. He 7 had -- he had been threatened by one of the cottagers, so 8 he needed our assistance to go down and assist him with 9 the matter. 10 We arrived and he arrested one (1) of the 11 cottagers for uttering threats to him. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And I take it that what you have 17 noted here is that it was symptomatic of some of the -- 18 the relationships as between perhaps maybe the First 19 Nations community and some of the people that were 20 resident in that area? 21 A: Yes, that's correct. I think that -- 22 and again, in the 1990's there, with the West Ipperwash 23 land claim and continued on. 24 Q: Okay. And I'm just looking at the 25 entry that is adjacent to your -- your notation 17:55
341 hours. You're talking about a cottager threatening to 2 shoot any Indians who came on his lawn and would shoot 3 Kaznowski. 4 I take it that is the officer that you're 5 speaking about? 6 A: Yes, Officer Kaznowski's with the 7 Kettle Point police services, now known as Anishinabek 8 Police Services. 9 Q: And you attended there for the 10 purposes of, as you've just testified, of assisting him 11 in that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Can I ask you, then, sir, to turn to 18 the -- just beyond the next blue page that separates... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: And it's noted as your book 121. 23 This is the 7th of July, 1993. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you see at -- the entry at 09:00
351 to one thousand (1000): 2 "With Intelligence re. ID pictures?" 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what is that in relation to, 5 Sergeant George? 6 A: It's probably in relation to, I would 7 imagine, the occupation of the Camp happening at that 8 time. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Probably pulled aside by Intelligence 11 Officers to -- to look at pictures. 12 Q: Beyond this entry do you have any 13 independent recollection of -- of this event or of -- of 14 performing those tasks? 15 A: No, not at that specific time. 16 Q: I'll take you then, Sergeant George, 17 if I may, through a series of other entries that you have 18 just following that. 19 You have an entry at July 13th; it's 20 marked as July 13th, 1993? 21 A: Yes, at 21:21 hours? 22 Q: Yes, I believe it's your page 16? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it's barely legible, perhaps you 25 might just read that for us if you would?
361 A: I'll -- I'll pull out mine -- my book 2 here which is at one twenty-one (121). 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yeah, at 21:21 hours on Tuesday, the 7 13th of July, 1993, I was to proceed to Matheson Drive, 8 the Department of National Defence area which would be 9 the Army Base, regarding ATV's driven by First Nations 10 people with no plates. The caller wished to remain 11 anonymous. 12 Q: All right. And what if anything 13 became of that complaint? I take it you attended for the 14 purposes of investigating? 15 A: Yes, it looks like I was at Matheson 16 Drive at about 9:33 p.m.; that had been gated and lock so 17 with that information, I believe, according to my notes 18 here, that I passed it onto the Provincial Park people as 19 well as the Military Police. 20 Q: All right. The next entry -- perhaps 21 just before I go on let me just take a moment. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: If you turn over to the next page of
371 that, your entry at 04:00 hours and perhaps just above 2 that, I wonder if you could tell us what that's about, 3 03:54 hours? Again, July 13th, of 1993. 4 A: Yeah, it was at 3:54 a.m. in the 5 morning. I was advised to proceed to Forest Detachment; 6 there was a man on the outside phone. He was perturbed 7 about the Indians staging on the beach area. 8 And then at 4:00 a.m. I arrived and spoke 9 to him. He complained that the DND beach was a public 10 beach and that the Indians couldn't charge a fee to get 11 on it and wanted -- and wanted us to get down there and 12 stop them from doing that basically. 13 Q: And what -- what happened as a result 14 of that? 15 A: I think -- according to my notes 16 here, I think I advised him that until Kim Campbell, who 17 was the Prime Minister at that time, and Sidden were 18 advise what direction they were going to go with this we 19 -- we would be keeping a low profile on the matter. 20 Q: You -- you have a notation of that -- 21 that advice that you would have given this particular 22 complainant? 23 A: Yes, it's on the next page over, page 24 23. 25 Q: All right. And would you just read
381 that for us? 2 A: Yeah, my notes indicate that I 3 advised him that until Kim Campbell and Sidden advised we 4 would be -- we, meaning the OPP, would be keeping a low 5 profile, to keep the peace and so forth. 6 Q: All right, thank you. 7 A: And until there was an injunction 8 ordered, we wouldn't -- we would be keeping a low profile 9 on it. 10 Q: All right. Thank you, sir. Again, 11 just for Mr. Registrar, the entry on the page previous at 12 04:00 hours, there's a name there again, I'd ask that 13 that be redacted, please. 14 Just before I move on to the next -- to 15 the next entry, I want to just take you back if I may, 16 please, Sergeant George. If you go to the first page, 17 past the first blue page, and that is the entry at 9th of 18 June, 1993. 19 And I apologize for that, I neglected just 20 to raise this one (1) issue at 10:30 hours -- the one 21 entry, rather, at 10:30 hours and I'd ask you to tell us 22 about that. 23 A: 10:30? 24 Q: Right. 25 A: Yeah, that was -- that was a
391 complaint that there was a bailiff at the main gates of 2 the Army Base, serving notice on the Military to get off 3 the property. 4 I arrived there at 10:47 a.m. and spoke to 5 Commissioner Smith, and apparently Sergeant Major Taylor 6 was served with this notice by this bailiff to get off. 7 There were fifteen (15) to twenty (20) people there which 8 included Channel 10 News and two (2) news TV crews. 9 And they've since left and the bailiff 10 with them. 11 Q: By the time you had arrived? 12 A: By the time I arrived. 13 Q: And did you get a copy of this or did 14 you see the notice that was served? 15 A: I may have, but I didn't get a copy 16 of it. 17 Q: All right. Did anything happen as a 18 result of your attendance there? 19 A: Not that I'm aware of. 20 Q: Once again, I apologize, but let me 21 take you then back to your entry at, it looks like the 22 2nd of August, Monday the 2nd of August. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
401 A: Yes. 2 Q: And would you just tell us about 3 that, please. 4 A: I'm going to get out my other book 5 here, one twenty-one (121), second... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Okay, Monday the 2nd of August, '93 10 at 8:52 p.m., I was advised to proceed to the Army Base 11 regarding a blue and white pick up; Natives spray 12 painting the signs there. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And I believe that was on the -- the 15 north -- northeast corner of the beach Army Base and the 16 Port Franks cottage area, extreme west end. 17 Q: As a result of your attendance there, 18 was anything, did any -- what happened? 19 A: No, I got a description of what was 20 done, but I don't think there was any charges or anything 21 laid out of there. 22 Q: Okay. The next page that I have in 23 the -- in the note -- copies of notebooks is May the 2nd 24 of 1993. 25 And the entry at the top of the page
411 simply reads, "Four signs". 2 A: May the 2nd, '93? 3 Q: And that may well be out of order, 4 and obviously it's out of order. I'm just... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And it looks like you -- you would 9 have attended at -- at this and again, it looks like 10 there were signs that were spray painted. 11 A: Now, do you have a book number that I 12 can refer to and -- 13 Q: Book 121. 14 A: And a page number, yeah? 15 Q: I'm sorry, I cannot read the page 16 number at the bottom of that. We have it up on the 17 screen right now. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: No, I think that's the same entry 22 where we're talking about, page 58 of my notes. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I just took a general description of 25 what -- there were four (4) signs, spray painted -- four
421 signs; "Proceed at Your Own Risk" sign, "Warning" signs, 2 there were two (2) English signs, two (2) French signs 3 and it was spray painted "Stoney Point Number 43" and 4 "Indian Land" and "First Nations Territories" and "Stoney 5 Point". 6 Q: And that completes the entry that you 7 had spoken to us earlier where you attended and 8 investigated? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. If you can just flip to 11 the next page then. The entry there is August the 2nd of 12 1993. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: It would appear to be another 15 attendance. And can you just tell us about that? 16 A: At 1:10 -- 01:10? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Yes. I believe I notified the 19 military police after speaking to councillors of the 20 Stoney Point people there; John George, Maynard George, 21 probably Maynard T. George, Travis George, Glenn George 22 and keeping the group under restraint in terms of this 23 kind of activity. 24 Q: That's with respect to spray painting 25 signs and that sort of thing?
431 A: Yes. 2 Q: And this would be indicative of the 3 relationship that you had continued with -- with these 4 people that were in occupation, some of whom you're 5 related to? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. You can turn to the next 8 page August 23rd of '93. I believe that's your page 76, 9 Sergeant George. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: There's an entry there at 09:30 hours 12 to 12:30 hours in relation to one Marlin Simon. 13 A: Which date do you have again, Mr. 14 Worme? 15 Q: August 23rd, 1993. It looks like 16 your page 76, I believe. 17 A: Yes. Monday 23rd of August, 1993. I 18 believe that entry's in relation to attending court 19 proceedings regarding Marlin Simon in the case that he 20 got seven (7) days for obstruct police and charged two 21 (2) times failed to comply with recognisance. 22 I'd been called to -- recalled to duty to 23 go to court. 24 Q: All right. Do you have any 25 recollection of that attendance and what that was in
441 relation to, the actual incident that he was in court 2 for? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: So you couldn't tell us if that was 5 in relation to anything in connection with the Army Camp 6 at all? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Can you turn to the next page, it's 9 your page 77, Officer. Tuesday 24th of August '95. And 10 the entry at the top of the page there and... 11 A: Yes, I have an entry here on Tuesday 12 the 24th of August 1993; to proceed to the concession 14 13 beach area which is the West Ipperwash beach area we 14 referred to earlier. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: And there was a complaint of people 17 pulling out posts there. And at 10:19 a.m. I arrived at 18 that location, observed a young male and a female coming 19 from the east side of the posts. 20 Had a discussion with them about whether 21 they made any observations to post pulling and there were 22 none. 23 Q: I take it nothing became of that as 24 well. 25 A: Nothing became of that.
451 Q: The next page that I have is your 2 page 89, 26th of August 1993. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And it would appear that you had some 5 interaction with an individual; I would ask, Mr. 6 Registrar, to redact that name. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I had received a call. 9 Thursday the 26th of August 1993, I'd received a call 10 from a Kettle Point Band member. She didn't want to talk 11 to the OPP but preferred to talk to Kettle Point Police 12 Services. 13 So there were discussions about -- she 14 would have to wait until they came on duty at 7:00 a.m. 15 in the morning. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: All right. And this is just 19 indicative to -- of the working relationship, 20 professional relationship you had with the Kettle Point 21 Police Services? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it continues on the next page. 24 Is there anything there of particular relevance, sir, 25 that...
461 A: Other than the Kettle Point police 2 eventually came out earlier than first thought -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- and attended to the matter. 5 Q: Again, Mr. Registrar, there's two (2) 6 names there, one (1) at 03:03 hours and the other at -- 7 I'm not sure what that entry is but there's a name there, 8 again I'd ask that those be redacted. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: The next page that I have, sir, is, I 13 think it's your page 93 and perhaps you can tell us what 14 date that is; I don't have a date on it. 15 A: I have Saturday the 28th of August, 16 1993. 17 Q: August 28th? 18 A: Yes, at 11:00 a.m. in the morning. 19 Q: Yes. And the name there, is that 20 Marlin Simon? 21 A: Yes, I made a stop with Marlin Simon 22 in the -- in the vehicle, the plate number and so forth, 23 registered to another party from Moraviantown. 24 Q: And aside from making that entry is 25 there any relevant to this? Is there anything that --
471 that arose out of this that -- that you reported on? 2 A: Well, I have a -- a notation in the 3 marginal side of this book that I passed it on to Neil 4 Morris who I believe was an Intelligence Office at that 5 time. 6 Q: All right. Next entry I have, 7 Sergeant, is February the 18th, Friday, 1994? 8 A: Do you have a book number, Mr. Worme? 9 Q: Book 125, sir. 10 A: The 18th of February -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- '94 is Friday? 13 Q: At 00:41 hours there is an entry. 14 Again if -- just generally you might tell us what this is 15 in relation to? 16 A: That -- that was in relation to an 17 impaired driver the Kettle Point Police were -- and a 18 sort of a slow speed pursuit on Indian Lane, Kettle 19 Point. I was asked to come and assist. 20 The vehicle made a turn in front of me. I 21 identified the passenger of that vehicle. It ended up at 22 a residence on Tecumseh Drive at Kettle Point. The 23 Kettle Point Police had arrested the driver for impaired 24 driver. There was some resistance and -- and obstruction 25 there so -- so people were charged with those.
481 Q: And this is again indicative of your 2 working and professional relationship with the Kettle 3 Point Police Service? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Nextly, at February 25th. 6 It's your book 125. I believe it's your pages 24 and 25? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: You mean at Friday, the 25th of 11 February, 1994? 12 Q: Yes, the 25th of February. Thank 13 you. 14 A: Yes, I -- I was called to the Army 15 Base at 12:24 p.m. regarding problems at the main gate. 16 I think that entry had to do with some of the folks 17 inside there trying to erect some sign at the main gate 18 area. 19 And the names that I have for that were 20 David George, who was the driver of vehicle, Kevin Simon 21 was in the middle, Joe George was in the front right, 22 Warren George, Jr. was in the back right, and Marlin 23 Simon was in the back left of that vehicle. 24 Q: And as a result of your attendance 25 there on the complaint of an attempt to erect signs what
491 happened? 2 A: There seems to be an entry there that 3 I was -- I'd left that location. Well, at 12:39 I -- I 4 arrived, 12:46 I was at the Military Police Office and 5 then 12:55 p.m. I'd left from the Camp and I advised them 6 of a comment that Marlin Simon had made. 7 Q: And what was that comment? 8 A: Well, according to my notes here it 9 looks like he was reporting that they'd be burning 10 buildings down if -- if the property was ever turned over 11 to Kettle Point. 12 Q: All right. And do you have any 13 independent recollection of that at all, sir, -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- aside from your notes? 16 A: No, aside from my notes I don't. 17 Q: And at page 25 of your notes do you 18 see where it says at the top of the page, "Friday, 25th 19 February, '94"? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your entry at 13:32 hours, "10-8 22 spoke to Cliff George"? 23 A: Yes. Spoke to Cliff George and spoke 24 to Carl George, probably again to have -- have them talk 25 to the boys and, you know, in terms of restraint in these
501 matters. 2 Q: And then at the -- your entry at 3 14:00 hours, that is your reporting relationship to 4 Inspector Carson. 5 A: Yes. It looks like I reported that 6 information to Inspector Carson. 7 Q: All Right. Thank you. The next page 8 we have is your entry at Friday, 17th of June 1994. 9 A: Do you have a book number, Mr -- 10 Q: Book 129. It's your page, I think 11 it's 81. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Do you see that? And I'm interested 16 in the entry at 18:30 hours, briefing at -- well, perhaps 17 you can read that for us and tell us what, if anything, 18 you can recall about that? 19 A: Yes, it looks like I was briefed at 20 6:30 p.m. on the 17th of June, Friday, 1994, by Sergeant 21 Korosec regarding the possibility of a pow wow at Stoney 22 Point that weekend. 23 And then I don't have any further entries 24 to that other than I was doubled up with P/C George, 25 Officer George at that time.
511 Q: All right. Do you know whether or 2 not any such event ever occurred? 3 A: I can't recall. 4 Q: Next entry we have that I want to 5 draw your attention to is that at June 17th, pardon me, 6 June the 19th. It's your pages 90 and 92 at your book 7 127. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: There's an entry at 21:10 hours, it 10 commences at that point in time. 11 A: Yes. That was a call Sunday, 19th of 12 June, 1994 at 9:10 p.m. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: It was in relation to a complaint of 15 explosions being heard. 16 Q: Okay. Just tell us about that if you 17 would. 18 A: Well, that turned out just to be 19 people in the cottage area letting off firecrackers, 20 fireworks. 21 Q: And the complaint came from where? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Again, if you -- you have a name
521 entered there and I'd -- I'd ask you not to read that 2 name to the record. 3 A: Yeah, no, my -- my indication that 4 I'd called Lance Corporal with the Military Police just 5 to find out if there was anything going on at the Army 6 Base. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: He hadn't heard anything and then my 9 subsequent investigation revealed that it was cottagers 10 setting off fireworks. 11 Q: Perhaps I can ask you to turn to the 12 document at Tab number 3 which is CFB Ipperwash Incident 13 Report -- Reports, rather. It's marked as P-411 in these 14 proceedings. 15 And if you turn to page 5, you'll see that 16 there's some entries at the 19th of June, '94 at 21:05 17 hours. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you see that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and the first one, there's 25 your name. I take it that's you?
531 A: Yes. 2 Q: L.V. George? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And there appears to be an occurrence 5 number which would correspond to the occurrence number in 6 your notebook? 7 A: Yes, that corresponds with the 8 occurrence number I have at the side as well. 9 Q: That report reads: 10 "Anonymous reports hearing explosives 11 in the area of CFB Ipperwash. Patrols 12 made. Found to be fireworks by 13 cottagers east of Cobblestone Lodge." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: It corresponds, essentially, to what 16 you've just told us. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Perhaps we could just go to the next 19 entry following that. It again appears to be an 20 occurrence number, ninety-four zero one one zero three 21 seven (94-01-1037). 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It's redacted: 24 "Reports a prowler near the cottage, 25 West Ipperwash beach. Patrolled area
541 with night vision goggles for one (1) 2 hour. Negative results." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that is indicative of the kinds 5 of patrol activity, the policing that you would be 6 engaged in, in that area? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: There's an entry just at the bottom 13 of that same page, Sergeant George. I'm sorry, just... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Pardon me. Perhaps I can take you 18 back to your -- to your notebook if I may; that is at Tab 19 Number 1, the entry at your book 128, page 44 and 50. 20 And that is the entries for the 17th of July, 1994. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And I see in the margin 23 of that it reads, "David George arrested, charged." 24 Perhaps you can just tell us about -- what 25 this is about. It continues onto the next page as well.
551 A: Yes. I -- I had been -- Sunday the 2 17th of July 1994 at 1:57 p.m., I'd been dispatched to 3 assist Officer Wadegen with -- with a complaint at the 4 northeast corner of the Army Base and the cottage area 5 known as Port Franks. 6 It originally started out as a volleyball 7 net type complaint. There was dis -- discussions and 8 information taken based on that -- that complaint. And 9 Terry George was there, Dudley George was there. 10 Q: And I see the entry at 14:02 at the 11 bottom -- at the bottom of your page 45, just before the 12 entry at 14:09 hours there's a name there. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Les Jewell? 15 A: Yeah. Les Jewell. There's a Phil 16 Thomas name entered there and Les Jewell as well. 17 Q: And who's Les Jewell. 18 A: Les Jewell is a -- a fellow that I 19 sort of came to know through Glenn George. He just sort 20 of appeared from somewhere and ended up, very much, in a 21 relationship with Glenn George and one of the occupiers 22 in the Army Base. 23 Q: Okay. So you're attending on a 24 complaint of a volleyball net, what was the nature of the 25 complaint involving the volleyball net?
561 A: Well, it was just basically, a 2 volleyball net had been taken down or missing or 3 something of that nature. When I arrived there were 4 people on the beach obviously having some discussions. 5 And -- and in the process of all that, we 6 observed a 4X4 truck approaching the area. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: Dave George was in that truck and he 9 exited the truck and starts spray painting some cement, 10 some signs and some cement barricades there that were -- 11 that were owned by the cottagers. 12 Q: All right. Yeah, continue. I -- I 13 take it that that's your notation at 15:03 hours? 14 A: 15:03, 17th of July? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You have the notation "David --" 18 pardon me, "Abraham David Alvin George". 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Date of birth there at the bottom of 21 the page. 22 A: Yes. David was eventually arrested. 23 He didn't know we were there. We're standing in the sand 24 dunes watching this activity when -- and he come up and 25 spray painted and so as a result of that I walked down
571 and arrested him. Mind you, we had cottagers standing 2 around watching this as well. 3 So he was eventually arrested for 4 mischief, spray painting the -- the sign and the 5 barricades. 6 Q: And the entry at 19:22 hours starts: 7 "Seized property re. George David. 8 Armour Coats spray primer." 9 A: Yes. At 7:22 seized property in 10 relation to that and that was the Armour Coat spray 11 primer aerosol can, 340 grams. Received it from Officer 12 Wadegen. 13 Q: And I see the name towards the -- the 14 middle of the page, Kevin Simon. 15 A: Yes, it says there that David George 16 was with the can and when I went to arrest him, he threw 17 it over to Kevin Simon. 18 Q: And so you -- 19 A: I directed -- 20 Q: I'm sorry. 21 A: I directed Officer Wadegen to seize 22 that can at that time. 23 Q: And, sir, you took a number of 24 photographs as part of the investigation of the incident 25 you're just describing to us?
581 A: Yes. 2 Q: We're going to put some photos up on 3 the screen and I know that you've been good enough to 4 provide those photos to us. We have copies and I think 5 those have been distributed to the parties 6 electronically. 7 We have copies up on the screen and I'm 8 going to take you through them if I may. If you want to 9 just look at the screen and if you can tell us what these 10 are? 11 A: Yes, this -- this is the cement 12 barricades that I spoke of. 13 Q: Now -- 14 A: And that's at the northeast corner of 15 the Army Base and the cottage area known as Port Franks. 16 Q: All right. Perhaps what I'll -- what 17 I should mention for the record, Commissioner, is I have 18 a series of seven (7) pages of photographs. Most of them 19 have four (4) pictures on them, there's one (1) with two 20 (2). 21 They are -- they appear in different -- 22 different order as they will on the screen. What I'll do 23 is I'll simply enter my copy which are numbered in the 24 order that they will come up on the screen and simply 25 have the -- have Sergeant George just describe what it is
591 as they -- as they come up on the screen if I may? 2 Maybe we can mark those as the next 3 exhibit at this point as well? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1289, Your Honour. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1289: Series of Photographs (14) 8 taken by Vince George. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: The next picture we have -- sorry. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Again if you can just go ahead and 16 describe what -- what is depicted in that photograph, 17 Officer? 18 A: Yeah. This -- this is a -- I took 19 these pictures myself. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: This picture is some distance back 22 into the -- the cottage area showing a shot heading west 23 toward --towards where the barricades were -- 24 Q: All right. 25 A: -- and where the activity was. The
601 barricades there is where the activity was. 2 Q: Next picture? 3 A: And this picture's another scene of 4 the barricades, taking the picture from up in the sand 5 dunes area to give you some kind of idea what it looked 6 like. 7 Q: Okay. Would this be the area that 8 you've indicated you were standing in when you observed 9 David George spray painting signs on the -- on the cement 10 blocks? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there's -- there's two (2) signs 13 that would appear in approximately the center of that 14 photograph -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- which I've marked as number 3? 17 There's a number of what appears to be again cement 18 blocks towards the right-hand middle of the photograph; 19 are those the cement blocks you refer to? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. The next picture appears 22 on the next pa -- number 4; there is a series of cement 23 blocks. And it's hard to see on the screen, sir, but it 24 would appear to be spray painting on the cement blocks as 25 you've described
611 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And can you read that? 4 A: It's difficult to see from here, I'll 5 refer to my... 6 Q: If I -- if I tell you it reads: 7 "Stoney Point Number 43." 8 And then: 9 "Indian Land." 10 Can you -- can you make that out? 11 A: Yes, I can make it out. 12 Q: All right. The next picture would 13 appear to be a closeup of two (2) of the signs that are 14 standing in front of the cement blocks. 15 Can you see that sign from your vantage 16 point, sir? And I've marked this as number 5. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Can you read what's -- what's on that 19 sign? 20 A: The sign says, "You're on Indian 21 land." 22 Q: All right. And then the next 23 picture, I'm going to suggest to you, is the sign that is 24 adjacent to the one that you've just described and I have 25 this marked as number 6.
621 A: Yes, I can't read that. 2 "On this land you're not a pedestrian 3 but a trespasser to be..." 4 I -- I can't see. 5 Q: It might read: 6 "So be-fucking-ware." 7 Is that -- is that consistent with you can 8 -- can read on that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. The next picture would 11 seem to be a depiction of that; that's also shown in 12 photograph number as well as the sign that we have just 13 described in number 5 from a little further back. 14 Do you agree with that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: The next picture is those same two 17 (2) photographs, pardon me, the same two (2) signs, 18 rather, again from a -- a vantage point just a little 19 further back and it shows a number of cement blocks that 20 run from the bottom right-hand up towards the middle 21 toward -- directly towards the signs. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I have that marked as -- 24 A: Now these -- 25 Q: -- number 8 in mine and photograph
631 num -- I'm sorry, were you going to say something? 2 A: I was just going to say that these 3 cement blocks were -- were set there by the cottagers. 4 Q: All right. And do you know for what 5 purpose? 6 A: Probably to prevent people from 7 coming on to their side. 8 Q: All right. Photograph number 9, 9 again it is similarly the two (2) signs, the cement 10 blocks. 11 You can read, perhaps, the -- the writing 12 on those blocks? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: There's one additional that you can 15 see; I think it reads, "Aazhoodena"? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: At the far right. 19 Q: I have that marked as number 9 in the 20 -- in the exhibit I have. Photograph number 10 is, I'll 21 suggest to you, the same depiction, although this one is 22 facing south; is that correct? 23 A: Yes. That would have been taken 24 closer to the water's edge. 25 Q: And that's facing inland.
641 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what were you -- what is shown on 3 the right hand of that photograph; that would be the DND 4 beach, I think is -- as has been described? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Photograph 11, again is 7 the cement blocks -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- again, closer to the water? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And photograph 12 would be a 12 depiction of -- of that just to the left of that depicted 13 in photograph 11. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Photograph 13 -- and perhaps you can 16 just describe that for us. That's taken, I would suggest 17 to you, from the water's edge, facing inland or 18 southbound. 19 A: Yes. That would be Officer Wadegen 20 and the complainants, the cottagers. 21 Q: All right. The ones that were -- 22 that were discussing the volleyball net incident? 23 A: Yes, some of them. 24 Q: All right. 25
651 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I think you can see there as well 4 that the -- there's -- there's other people enjoying the 5 beach there, indicated by the amount of boats and so 6 forth, parked just off the water. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And the last picture that I have in 11 this set, perhaps you can just describe that. 12 A: Yes, that would be further down the 13 beach again. I'd be taking that picture east of that 14 location on the beach, pointed towards the Army Base, DND 15 beach, Stoney Point. 16 Q: All right, thank you, sir. And I 17 misspoke earlier, Commissioner, when I indicated that 18 there were seven (7) pages. In fact, there are -- pardon 19 me, 8 pages. There are, in fact, 5 pages of photographs, 20 a total of 14 pictures that we've marked as Exhibit 1289. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: In August of 1994, Sergeant George, 25 were you aware of an investigation involving the shooting
661 of a helicopter and -- within the -- the Army Base? 2 A: Yes, I was aware of it, but wasn't 3 involved in the investigation. 4 Q: All right, and that was my next 5 question. Pardon me, '93, I stand corrected. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: You'll agree that that was, in fact, 10 the date, August of '93? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. I understand as well, 13 sir, that you would have responded to other complaints in 14 the Army Base and in particular the ramming of a military 15 vehicle? 16 A: Yes, I was aware of that. I can't 17 say whether I responded to that specifically, but I was 18 aware that some military police vehicles had been rammed. 19 Q: All right. And you don't have any 20 notes on this, but it's something that you seem to have 21 recalled for us, is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not 24 there were any charges as a result of this? 25 A: No, I can't -- I wouldn't know that.
671 Q: You had also recalled on an earlier 2 occasion for us, Officer George, following or pursuing a 3 vehicle into the Army Camp. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you know what, if anything, 6 became of that? 7 A: No, it was just a vehicle that -- 8 that I followed or -- up to Dudley's place on Highway 21. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: I removed the plates off of it, 11 couldn't identify the driver or -- and that was the 12 extent of it. 13 Q: We were told something of an incident 14 involving the attendance of -- of the OPP and in 15 particular, the -- the TRU to the Kettle and Stony Point 16 First Nation involving an individual in February of '95 17 that had barricaded in a residence. 18 Did you have any involvement in that at 19 all, sir? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: All right. Let me take you to some 22 documents that had been provided to us through -- through 23 your Counsel. 24 They are, it looks like, entries and it 25 reads:
681 "Evidence of Vince George, Friday 2nd 2 of June, 1995." 3 There's three (3) pages, the second page 4 at the top reads: 5 "Evidence of Vince George, Book 134, 6 page 69." 7 And the third page at the top of it reads: 8 "Evidence of Vince George, book 172, 9 page 37." 10 Do you have that in front of you, sir? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: No, I don't have that. 16 Q: We'll put a copy in front of you. 17 A: Okay, I have it here, sorry. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 19 that I have a copy. I'll take that one. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 24 Q: Do you have that in front of you now, 25 sir?
691 A: Yes. 2 Q: Perhaps I can ask that that be made 3 the next exhibit, and I'm going to ask the Witness about 4 that. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-1290, Your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, what 7 number was that? 8 THE REGISTRAR: 1290. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1290. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Hmm hmm. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1290: Evidence of Vince George, 13 June 02, 1995, August 22, 14 1995, and August 08, 2003 and 15 handwritten notebook entries 16 of Cst. Vince George. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: Okay, and these were provided to us, 20 Commissioner, and distributed electronically to the 21 parties. 22 I wonder if you could just tell us, first 23 of all, the -- how these were created, when they were 24 made? 25 A: What happened is when I got searching
701 through my notebooks again, I found these extra entries 2 in there that I'd overlooked and recalled that I had, and 3 so I -- I typed them up with the intention of -- with the 4 intention of giving them to you when -- when we had our 5 interview on the 26th. 6 Q: All right. And in fact you had gone 7 back, and at our request provided us with the actual 8 entries which we've distributed to the parties this 9 morning. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And the entry for June 12 the 2nd of 1995, perhaps you can just tell us about that. 13 A: June 2nd; do we have a book number? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: June the 2nd, at 8:34 hours I'd 18 received information for a caution and observation. It 19 was in relation to an Isaac Doxtator; information about 20 him making comments that he was coming to Ipperwash to 21 make a name for himself and he was a known associate to 22 AK-47s, Glocks, M.16 and prohibited from driving. 23 He was associated to plates TB 1832 that 24 were unattached and could be used on a GMC or Ford 25 pickup, also another vehicle, a 1980 Cadillac DeVille 4-
711 door brown, possible plate 324 AHA. 2 And subsequent to that, at 11:49 hours, we 3 had an update on that, that -- and that I received that 4 from acting Sergeant Shawn Johnson. 5 Q: When you say 11:45 hours in your 6 notebook at page 40, it reads 23:49; twenty-four (24) 7 hour clock. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yeah. Yeah, continue, I'm sorry. 10 A: So I was advised by acting Sergeant 11 Shawn Johnson that Doxtator has been on the reserve since 12 9:00 p.m. And the information was reliable but no 13 reference to which reserve, whether that was Kettle Point 14 or -- or Oneida. 15 And it would appear that that information 16 was true, according to him, and he's a known gun dealer 17 in semi- auto weapon -- semi-auto -- semi-automatic 18 weapons. 19 Q: All right. And I notice that you're 20 reading from the -- the typed version, and this is the 21 version that you'd prepared upon reading your notes that, 22 again, were distributed today? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the reference that you -- that 25 you've just made, no reference to what reserve, Kettle
721 Point or Oneida, that is not contained in your note -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- in your notes, is it? 4 A: No. 5 Q: So you would have added that -- 6 A: I would have added that in brackets. 7 Q: Is there anything else in connection 8 with this entry, sir, that you wish to tell us about? 9 A: That I was told that this individual 10 was ten (10) plus dangerous wise on the scale 1 to 10, 11 and also known to handle AK47's and 9 millimetres. 12 Q: And perhaps what I'll do is I'll -- 13 I'll simply take you -- I'll simply take you through the 14 next entry in the typewritten notes that again reads at 15 the top of the page, "Evidence of Vince George, Book 134 16 page 69". 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. That's an entry that you 19 received a call from Tina George; you recognized her 20 voice. Perhaps you can just tell us briefly what that 21 was about. 22 A: Briefly that was -- she had her car 23 towed in, I think, around the 26th of June 1995 and she 24 was there at Dudman's Towing in Forest here to -- to try 25 and get it back.
731 In any event she wasn't having much 2 success. She'd called me. I happened to be the guy on 3 the telephone at that time. 4 So we had a discussion about what are 5 certain rules and regs out here that she needed to comply 6 with before she got that back and -- and that I would 7 need to check on the computer reports to see whether or 8 not that was used in a crime before it was released. 9 Q: Okay. And what if anything, became 10 of that? 11 A: It turns out, my understanding is 12 they -- they stormed out and left the towing -- the 13 towing premises and that was the extent of it. 14 Q: All right. And then the last page of 15 these notes that you've provided us, sir, it's the 16 evidence of -- it reads at the top of the page. "Evidence 17 of Vince Georg, Book 172, Page 37." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And if you can just tell us about 20 that. And while he's doing so, Mr. Registrar, perhaps we 21 can take a look at and put in front of the Witness, 22 Exhibit P-42A. 23 Just tell us about what that entry 24 indicates if you would please, Sergeant George. 25 A: Yes. That was on the 8th of August
741 2003. I was summoned to the office of Detective Sergeant 2 George Speck. I was unaware of why I was being called 3 there until I got there. 4 Anyway, the -- I was asked to look at a 5 photograph, obviously a black and white photograph, a 6 still shot from a video of some nature. 7 Q: Okay. You have in front of you 8 what's has been marked as Exhibit 42A; is that the 9 photograph that you were asked to look at? 10 A: That would appear to be it. A 11 smaller version though. It would have been a smaller -- 12 Q: And you're indicating with your hands 13 just held in front of you -- 14 A: Yes, it would be a 5x7 or something 15 of that nature. 16 Q: -- a smaller dimension. And the one 17 in front of you that would appear to be similar to the 18 one that you had a look at that -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- that you're reporting on at page 21 37 of your notebook. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I take it that you were asked to 24 determine who this individual perhaps might be and what 25 it was that he had?
751 A: Yes. 2 Q: And were you able to assist in that 3 regard? 4 A: No. The -- 5 Q: And your notes would indicate that it 6 was because of the poor picture quality. 7 A: Poor picture, yes. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I couldn't say who that was or -- or 10 what he had in his hand. 11 Q: Commissioner, there are the three (3) 12 additional notes that Sergeant George had provided this 13 morning and I'd like to enter those simply as a package, 14 an exhibit as well. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: These are 16 the notes that we've been referring to; the typed 17 version? 18 MR. DONALD WORME: That's correct. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 20 put the written notes in now? 21 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, sir. So if we 22 can just simply attach those to P-1290 and they can all 23 be a complete exhibit. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 The three (3) handwritten sets of notes attached to the
761 typewritten notes and the whole thing is Exhibit 1290. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 5 Q: I want to move then, Officer George, 6 to the occurrences in late July and August of 1993. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And I understand that on 9 the 29th of August you were assigned to patrol with 10 Constable Wardell (phonetic). 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I wonder if you can just go ahead and 13 tell us that -- tell us about that rather. 14 A: Yeah. Based upon reviewing my notes 15 it would appear that I was dispatched to the main gate 16 area; that the -- for security reasons, the -- the Army 17 personnel were moving out. I was the first office on the 18 scene. 19 Q: All right. And you when you were 20 referring to your notes -- Commissioner, I should 21 indicate that at Tab Number 10 there appears Inquiry 22 Document 2004077. There are a number of typed pages at 23 the end of which seem to be typed by yourself, Sergeant 24 George? 25 A: Police Summary?
771 Q: Yeah, a typewritten summary. And 2 then following that there are a -- a series of, what 3 appears to be a copy of your notebook? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that would commence at front num 6 -- front number 0039546. Do you see that? 7 A: 39546, yes. 8 Q: And the entry at the top of that copy 9 is Saturday, 29th of July, 1995? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I appreciate, Commissioner, that 12 this might be a bit awkward but what I'm going to ask is 13 that this entire package of materials which comes 14 together be marked as the next exhibit, please? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-1291, Your Honour. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1291: Document Number 2004077. 18 Statement of Vince George and 19 handwritten notebook entries 20 (July 24, 1995, September 27, 21 1995; October 07, 1995; 22 November 01, 1995, November 23 14, 1995). 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:
781 Q: And for the present then I would ask 2 you simply to look at those entries in your notebook of 3 July 29th, 1995. 4 If you can just tell us what happened as a 5 result of your attendance. 6 A: Yeah. Basically that was at 10:46 7 p.m. that evening, I was to proceed to the Army Camp and 8 assist with Army personnel leaving. I arrived there at 9 10:49, so I was in the area. And the place, the Army 10 Base, was vacated by Department of National Defence 11 personnel. 12 And yes, following that I -- I made a 13 report to Inspector Carson that the Army Base had been 14 vacated and then that -- well, my notebooks indicate that 15 Antone and Elijah were present. I'm -- I'm presuming 16 that was Bob Antone, Layton Elijah or Bruce Elijah. 17 Q: All right. Do you have an actual 18 recollection of your attendance at the Army Base, the 19 29th of July, 1995? 20 A: Yes, to some extent. 21 Q: Can you tell us anything beyond what 22 you've recorded in your notes? 23 A: Yes, it was -- seemed pretty 24 emotional, exciting at that time; you know, yelling and 25 hollering going on as the people are -- are filing out,
791 while people jeering me as well. 2 Q: And what can you tell us about that 3 when -- 4 A: That was -- that was a comment made 5 by a non Aboriginal person married -- married to a -- a 6 native girl. He was making comments like, Why don't you 7 come over to this side and, you know, stuff like that. 8 Q: All right. And I take it from that 9 comment that you were not inside the -- the Army Base? 10 A: I don't believe so. 11 Q: Did you ever enter the Army Base 12 during this particular attendance? 13 A: I don't think so. 14 Q: Can you tell us anything about the -- 15 the manner or the fashion of the DND personnel exiting? 16 A: I believe they were -- were quite 17 orderly leaving; filing out single file, so forth, 18 personnel and vehicles. 19 Q: If I can just ask you briefly to turn 20 to Tab Number 3 and that is the document marked as P-411. 21 If you go to page 25 of that document there's an entry at 22 29th of July at 23:55 hours by Carson and it reads: 23 "Advised by P/C Vince George that 24 Military vacated CFB Ipperwash. 25 Officers consisted, peaceful vacancy."
801 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that's consistent with what 3 you've just told us? 4 A: Yes, consistent with my notes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I understand, Sergeant George, that 9 in early August you had occasion to meet with Officer 10 Speck and he -- and he asked you to perform certain 11 functions. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Could you tell us about that? 14 A: I was asked by Officer George Speck 15 to specifically approach a person that had been living 16 inside the Army Base -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- and to develop some kind of 19 relationship there, a dialogue, in terms of finding out 20 what's going on in the inside. 21 Q: Okay. And if I can ask you to turn 22 to the document at Tab 10, the first page of that, 23 Exhibit P-1291. This is your handwritten -- or pardon 24 me, your typewritten notes. 25 A: Yes.
811 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: Okay, and just towards the -- the 5 third or fourth sentence, full sentence, it reads: 6 "During this time, I was asked by Crime 7 Unit members to cultivate a 8 relationship with a person's name who I 9 will leave out to protect the 10 identity." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And in fact, throughout this, that 13 name has been -- has been left out and indeed, in your 14 notes, you have redacted that -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- that name? All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: At Tab 2, is a further set of notes, 21 Sergeant George. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I'm going to ask that these be marked 24 as the next exhibit, please, and I'll be referring the -- 25 the Witness variously between these notes and the -- the
821 exhibit that's now on the screen. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1292, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1292: Handwritten notebook excerpts 5 of Cst. Vince George, August 6 03, 1995, September 29, 1995. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: Perhaps you can just tell us about 10 these notes. 11 A: These notes -- 12 Q: And they date, incidentally, from 13 August the 3rd, 1995, to September the 29th of '95. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: yeah, these -- these notes are in 17 relation to my meetings with that individual we spoke of. 18 Q: All right, and why would you -- why 19 would you maintain a separate notebook? 20 I mean, perhaps it's obvious, but would 21 you tell us, please. 22 A: Yeah. To keep them separate from any 23 other notes so as not to confuse the note taking and so 24 forth with other notes. And it was special request, I 25 felt it necessary to keep a -- a separate book.
831 Q: All right. And we'll see that some 2 of the entries, if we can just look at page 1 of that, 3 and that's August the 3rd of 1995. First entry would be 4 from 21:30 to 23:30. 5 And again, I don't intend to take you 6 through every entry in this, but we will touch on a 7 number of them. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: "Bert runs to" is that Akwesasne 14 area? 15 A: Yes. This is the information that 16 I'm receiving from this person. 17 Q: Okay. There's an entry, two (2) -- 18 two (2) entries down, "Snail plane"? 19 A: Yes: 20 "Snail plane involved in oil springs 21 explosion -- explosives." 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I think there was an investigation on 24 the go at that time regarding explosives. 25 Q: All right. And just before we go on,
841 did you have any role in beyond obtaining this 2 information? 3 What -- what did you do with the 4 information, what was your role insofar as what you did 5 with this? 6 A: Well, my role would be to report back 7 to George Speck with this information, since he -- he was 8 a member of the crime unit at that time working out of 9 the Forest Detachment. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: The entry at the bottom, it says 15 "guns" and then something "rifle"? 16 A: Yeah, it says: 17 "Marlin -- Marlin [who I would presume 18 to be Marlin Simon] had a rifle, maybe 19 more powerful than a 30-30." 20 Q: And it continues on the next page. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: If you could just read that entry at 23 the top of the page, please. 24 A: "And then the individual reported to 25 me that Dave George had a sawed-off
851 shotgun that he referred to as the 2 master blaster. 3 And then there's unknown male, now 4 identified to me as Michael Lundehn and 5 then another individual by the name of 6 Ray with no last name." 7 And then there's an entry there, the 8 information that I was receiving that Les Jewell was 9 controlling Glenn George. 10 And Les Jewell has -- he's never known -- 11 Les Jewell. Yeah, Les Jewell was never known to the 12 people on the inside before. 13 Q: All right. And there's a reference 14 to Cross Village, Michigan, talk of taking over the 15 Provincial Park, but maybe next year. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: This is information that you would 18 have passed along on the 3rd of August or thereabouts? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Again, if we -- if we turn over to 21 August the 8th, Tuesday, there's an entry at 16:00 hours. 22 This is your page 3. 23 A: Yes, 8th of August -- Tuesday, 8th of 24 August '95. There was some concern over guns and a fort 25 and a bunker being built inside the Army Base.
861 Q: Now, where would that information be 2 coming from; fears about guns and a fort and bunker? 3 A: That information I believe came from 4 George Speck. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it then that you 6 would receive this, you would enter into your notebook 7 and then as part of your task would be attempt to find 8 out what was going on in relation to those concerns? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And just in relation to -- to the 11 concerns about a fort or a bunker, were you ever able to 12 establish anything? 13 A: Yes. We -- we learned that it wasn't 14 actually a fort or a bunker being constructed there, it 15 was a -- a dump truck hauling sand or... 16 Q: And sand for what purposes? 17 A: I'm not sure. 18 Q: Okay. Beyond passing this 19 information to George Speck, did you have any role in -- 20 in attempting to verify any of this information? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Do you know what happened to this 23 information once you passed it along? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: And some of the names that you've
871 mentioned and are mentioned in your notebook, did you -- 2 do you know these individuals personally? 3 A: Names such as? 4 Q: Well for example, if you turn to page 5 4, at the bottom of page 4, the entry at 17:42 hours, 6 there's the name Ed Isaac there. 7 Do you know that individual? 8 A: Yes. I -- I know Ed Isaac's name but 9 I don't know him personally. 10 Q: He was mentioned earlier. The -- Les 11 Jewell; is that somebody that you had -- that you had 12 known? 13 A: Well Les Jewell I -- I come to know. 14 He -- he hung around quite a bit with Glenn. Glenn was 15 in and out of Kettle Point and the Army Base talking to 16 me occasionally. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So it wasn't like they were avoiding 19 me or anything. So I come to know Les Jewell. 20 Q: Commissioner, I'm going to move 21 nextly to the occupation of the Provincial Park and 22 perhaps this might be an appropriate spot to take the 23 morning break. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 25 it is. Let's take a morning break.
881 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 10:47 a.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 11 Q: Sergeant, you'd indicated that at 12 least by the 3rd of August, you had some information that 13 there was talk about taking over Ipperwash Provincial 14 Park coming to you through the source -- through your 15 sources. 16 A: Yes. There was some discussion. 17 Q: Although they didn't necessarily 18 indicate a time. I think -- I think the time that you 19 have at page 2 of Exhibit P-1292 would indicate that it 20 was -- there was some suggestion that it might happen 21 next year. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you at anytime prior to the 24 actual takeover of the Park, receive any further 25 information in that respect that you would have passed
891 along in the manner and fashion that you've already 2 described? 3 A: In terms of my second notebook? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Yes, there was other information that 6 I passed along. 7 Q: No, I mean just in relation to the 8 takeover of the Park that we know occurred on the 6th of 9 -- pardon me, on the 4th of September, 1995. 10 A: Nothing specifically. 11 Q: Okay. And indeed there was also 12 planning on the OPP side for the possibility that the 13 Provincial Park might be taken over. You were aware of 14 that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And had you any role in terms of that 17 preparation? 18 A: None whatsoever other than my job was 19 to facilitate this relationship. 20 Q: Okay. For example we are told that 21 there was planning that was named, Project Maple; were 22 you aware of that first of all? 23 A: I was aware of the name but that only 24 came to me by it -- being in and out of the Forest 25 Office.
901 Q: If I can ask you to turn to Tab 2 Number 4 of the book of documents in front of you. It's 3 Inquiry Document 2002839. It's a single page from, we're 4 told, Project Maple; it's P-424. 5 And this is an excerpt from page 31 of 6 that. And you see just towards the middle the heading, 7 Detention and Release Centre? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it says: 10 "Scribe, Karen Shaw." 11 And below that: 12 "Members to identify and process?" 13 If you go down, "Provincial Constable Phil 14 George" and then your name appears, "Provincial Constable 15 Vince George". 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And part of your job was to be 18 involved in the detention and identification I take it, 19 of people that might come into custody as a result of 20 whatever occurred in -- in connection with the -- in 21 connection with this project? 22 A: Yes, I never understood it in terms 23 of -- of the detention of people other than my role in 24 many situations was identifying people through 25 photographs and video.
911 Q: All right. Were you -- did you ever 2 see this page or this document before? 3 A: I've never seen this document. 4 Q: All right. And as you've indicated 5 you had no role in the planning of -- of Project Maple or 6 indeed any of the operational plans that might have taken 7 place -- operational planning rather that -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- might have taken place? 10 You'd indicated, sir, that your office -- 11 certainly you were at -- you were stationed at the Forest 12 Detachment? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And in the time preceding September 15 the 4th of '95 did that change? 16 A: Yes, there -- there was a build-up of 17 personnel at the -- the Forest Office so I have notations 18 and -- and recall work -- moving over to the Petrolia 19 Office where I could work. 20 Q: And I take it that you continued on 21 with your regular general duties? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
921 Q: I'm going to ask you to turn to your 2 notebook that's marked as P-1291; that's the notes found 3 at Tab 10. Commissioner, that will be -- that will 4 appear at front number 0039548. 5 There's an entry there for the 4th of 6 September, 1995; do you see that, Sergeant George? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that's page 29 of your -- of your 12 notebook? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And just tell us what it reads and 15 tell us how you came to that information that's indicated 16 there. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: At Tab 10, Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 22 that I have that at that -- at Tab 10 is that Exhibit 12 23 and -- 24 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, and then if you - 25 - if you go in approximately --
931 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Keep going? 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, go to 3 approximately eight (8) or ten (10) pages or so, you will 4 come to the copy of the handwritten notes -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The number 6 you were quoting was the font number not the -- 7 MR. DONALD WORME: That's right. That's 8 right, sir. I apologize. It's a little bit cumbersome 9 but that is the -- the manner in which they appear on the 10 database. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 12 to repeat that front number? 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Yeah. The front 14 number is 0039548. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 16 it now. 17 MR. DONALD WORME: It's approximately ten 18 (10) pages from the back. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it 20 now. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 23 Q: Yes. The notation at the top is 24 Monday, 04 September, '95, Sergeant George? 25 A: Yes.
941 Q: Perhaps you can just go ahead and 2 read that entry that you have there? 3 A: Yeah. Monday the 4th of September, 4 1995 at 10:25 p.m. I was assigned to patrol the Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park area re. Natives had taken it over. 6 And I was -- I was assigned with Sergeant 7 Cottingham to patrol that area. 8 Q: And first of all, would it be typical 9 that you would be assigned with another member to patrol? 10 A: Not during the day shift, but 11 sometimes in the evenings. In this circumstances 12 probably doubling up was -- was normal procedure. 13 Q: All right. Okay, carry on and what 14 does -- what does it read? 15 A: I think this entry has to do with 16 serving a notice with Les Kobayashi at the Provincial 17 Park. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I was asked to assist him and go in 20 behind the barricades. 21 Q: And who would have asked you to do 22 this? 23 A: Probably would have been command 24 staff, John Carson assisted by Mark Wright, Sergeant 25 Korosec.
951 Q: All right. And do you have any 2 independent recollection of receiving those instructions? 3 A: No. No independent recollection. 4 Q: You don't have any notation on that. 5 A: The conversation, no. 6 Q: Right. So carry on, what -- what was 7 it that you were to do? 8 A: We were to essentially go in -- in 9 behind the barricades, engage someone to try and attempt 10 to find out who their spokesperson or leader was, so to 11 speak, and if we could establish that we would serve a 12 trespass notice on them. 13 Q: Okay. And when you say the 14 barricades, was there literally a barricade, or what are 15 you describing? 16 A: I -- I believe they were, if I 17 recall, they were cement blocks, similar to -- similar to 18 what we seen in the -- 19 Q: Similar to -- 20 A: -- photographs. 21 Q: -- the ones that you've described as 22 being put up by the cottagers? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Yeah, continue. 25 A: So I agreed to do that, assist Les
961 Kobayashi who was a superintendent of the Provincial Park 2 at that time. 3 Q: And Superintendent Kobayashi, had you 4 known this individual, had you met him before? 5 A: No. No, so there was an introduction 6 done. 7 Q: I'm going to ask you, just before you 8 carry on with that, if you refer to Tab 6 in front of 9 you, that's Exhibit P-426. And those are scribe notes. 10 What I have is an excerpt from that and 11 that's what you will have as well, Mr. Commissioner. 12 This Exhibit is some one hundred and forty-eight (148) -- 13 eighty-four (84) pages in total. 14 But I'd ask you to turn to Tab -- pardon 15 me, page 5. It's marked as page 5 at the top of that. 16 Do you see that, Sergeant? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the entry at 22:38 hours, just at 19 the bottom of that. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you see the entry where it reads: 22 "Mark Wright indicated he spoke to 23 Vince George. He agreed he felt 24 comfortable being first one in with Les 25 Kobayashi to serve the papers."
971 A: Yes. 2 Q: And does that assist you in -- in 3 recalling as to who you might have spoken to insofar as 4 receiving the instructions you've described? 5 A: No independent recollection, but I'm 6 presuming that I would have had conversation with Mark 7 Wright, Carson or Stan Korosec. 8 Q: And if we just turn to the next page 9 of that same -- pardon me, page 7 of that same -- same 10 document, at 22:58 hours. You see the entry there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: 22:58 hours at the top of the page: 13 "Agreed Stan Korosec advised Mark 14 Wright and John Carson that he was 15 leaving to meet with Vince George 16 regarding briefing"? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And does that assist you in terms of 19 recalling that you would have perhaps met with Stan 20 Korosec? 21 A: Yeah, I wouldn't have any independent 22 recollection but that's -- that's what I'm presuming, 23 those -- those individuals would have been the person I-- 24 Q: Right. 25 A: -- met with.
981 Q: If we just carry on to the entry at 2 23:02 hours. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You see toward the middle, the -- the 5 bullet that begins, "Les Kobayashi and Vinnie..." 6 I take it Vinnie is yourself? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "...going to serve papers down at the 9 maintenance building." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And was that, in fact, where this -- 12 this attempt to serve papers occurred at the maintenance 13 building? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Let me just ask you, then, if you'd 16 continue and tell us what happened. 17 A: Well, what happened is we -- we went 18 in behind the barricades. I'm not sure which road it is. 19 I think it's the road leading up to the kiosk in the 20 Park. We went behind -- we were flanked by ERT team 21 members and approximately eight (8) to ten (10) ERT team 22 members in full gear. 23 It was a dark location and so they had 24 flanked us for safety reasons, each side of the ditch as 25 Les Kobayashi and I walked down the dark paved road
991 there. 2 Q: When you say safety reasons, do you 3 yourself, sir, have any concerns in that respect? 4 A: No. I -- I didn't. 5 Q: And why not? 6 A: Well I mean, you're dealing with 7 relatives and so forth, so I didn't have that much of a 8 concern regarding going in. 9 Q: Okay. You had some -- some 10 information that you had passed along, as you've told us, 11 to Officer Speck regarding the prospect of weapons being 12 in the vicinity. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that didn't concern you? 15 A: Well I -- I mean it always does but 16 none of this information was confirmed, as far as I know. 17 Q: Do you have any recollection then of 18 making this -- walking up, as you put it, with Mr. 19 Kobayashi? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you tell us what, if 22 anything, you can remember about Mr. Kobayashi's demeanor 23 and perhaps how he might have felt? 24 A: Yeah. I don't recall any concerns by 25 him. At least they weren't addressed when I was present.
1001 Q: Tell us about what happened, if you 2 would then. 3 A: Well we went in behind the 4 barricades. It was dark, flanked by ERT team members and 5 I -- we could hear a car coming from -- coming towards 6 us, a loud exhaust and so forth. It ended up it was a 7 pickup truck driven by Bert Manning. 8 There was a couple of other people in the 9 vehicle who I couldn't identify because of the darkness. 10 Q: Right. 11 A: So we were trying to establish who 12 their spokesperson was and so forth. And -- 13 Q: Okay. How did you -- how did you 14 attempt to establish who the spokesperson was? 15 A: Well it was dialogue with Bert 16 Manning about, you know, just -- just up front trying to 17 establish who -- who the spoke -- spokesperson was for -- 18 for the people that were inside so that we could talk to 19 them and -- and serve them notice. 20 Q: Was there anything remarkable about 21 that conversation you would have had with Bert Manning? 22 A: No. Other -- other than I recall he 23 -- he said he would go up and back into the main Army 24 Base and -- and find out -- have this discussion with 25 whomever and -- and come back and report to us.
1011 We could hear the -- we could hear the 2 vehicle, the truck heading back through the Park, all the 3 way back, in the stillness of the night hear the -- the 4 vehicle go back to the Army Base. 5 And then it returned a short time later. 6 There were other people, other vehicles there when they 7 returned. Bert Manning didn't seem to be there the 8 second time around but eventually showed up and refused 9 to be -- refused to be served. 10 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you there, if 11 I may, and ask you to turn to the document at Tab 5 of 12 the brief in front of you. It's Exhibit 5 -- pardon me, 13 459. And I'd just ask you to look at that first page, 14 it's dated September the 4th of '95 and it appears to be 15 under the hand of Les Kobayashi. 16 Do you recognize that, first of all? 17 A: Yeah. I don't have any independent 18 recollection of -- of this, although I -- I recall having 19 a document in my hand that night. 20 Q: Okay. And you wouldn't dispute that 21 that would be the document, one in the same, or a copy of 22 the one in the same that you would have had in your hand? 23 A: Yes. That -- that may very well be. 24 Q: Did you have any -- any role in 25 drafting this, other than what you've described about
1021 attempting to serve it? 2 A: No. 3 Q: If I can ask you to turn to your 4 notes again at Tab Number 10, and the notes again under 5 the entry of 04 September of '95. 6 And you see the entry at 00:6 hours? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And does that say 'meeting' with -- 9 perhaps I should just ask you to read them, if you could, 10 please. 11 A: Okay, let me just begin at 10:25. 12 "Assigned to patrol Ipperwash area." 13 I think we went through that. 14 "Met..." 15 My handwriting's pretty bad. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: "Met with Bert Manning driving a pick 20 up truck, accompanied by two (2) other 21 unknown to me. They ordered us out to the 22 main gate. I asked for their 23 spokesperson, he said he would go and get 24 him. I don't have a notation of who he 25 was referring to at that time, and --
1031 Q: Do you have an independent 2 recollection of who he might have been referring to? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And when you say, "they ordered us 5 out," you mean out of the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the main gate being the main gate 8 of the Park? 9 A: The area of the kiosk, so forth, 10 where we were standing. 11 Q: All right. And did you accede to 12 that? 13 A: Yes, I think we -- we left. 14 Q: All right. Just continue, if you 15 would. 16 A: So I have another notation here at 17 1:50 a.m., that would be the 5th of September. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: Making notes in relation to that: 20 "Finished with same party that was with 21 Bert. Bert didn't seem to be present. 22 Joe George was driving a vehicle. 23 David George was driving another 24 vehicle. When we approached to attempt 25 to serve [and then I see another] David
1041 Roth, vehicle here was pulled away from 2 us when we tried to serve, or at least 3 approach him. 4 We then left. All of those we 5 encountered as well tried to approach 6 them, they moved away and Bert refused 7 to accept any papers when he returned - 8 - or when he rolled up the second 9 time." 10 Q: All right. And if you'll just turn 11 then to the next entry at 20:35 hours, this is now the 12 early morning hours -- pardon me, this is now Tuesday the 13 5th of September, is it? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: What -- what time? 18 Q: I'm just looking at the next page 19 that -- that we have, sir. It looks like the next entry 20 we have would be the following day, Tuesday the 5th of 21 September. 22 Do you have any further involvement, I -- 23 on the early morning hours of Tuesday the 5th of 24 September, following this attempt to serve? 25 A: No, I -- I -- we -- we had a bus --
1051 by the road, discussion about I felt that there wasn't 2 anybody in the Park, so I thought maybe it would be -- 3 there was a window of opportunity there to take it back. 4 So we had those discussions at the 5 roadside, and then we went back to the Forest office and 6 had discussions with Inspector Carson about -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- that concept. 9 Q: And this discussion at the roadside, 10 who was that with? 11 A: Les Kobayashi would have been there, 12 Stan Korosec, ERT sergeant at that time. 13 Q: Okay. Just with respect to your 14 attempt to serve Bert Manning, can you tell us anything 15 about his demeanour, particularly with reference to 16 whether or not you made any observations as to his use of 17 alcohol. 18 A: I think there's some note, but not in 19 my notebook, that he was intoxicated. 20 Q: And do you have any recollection of 21 that, sir? 22 A: No, other than notes. 23 Q: Okay. Can I ask you to turn to the 24 scribe notes again at Tab 6, that is P-426. 25 There's an entry at 01:10 hours.
1061 A: Which page, sir? 2 Q: Page 13. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Are you with me? 7 A: 1:10 hours? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. It reads: 11 "Vince George arrived. 12 JOHN CARSON: Bert Manning intoxicated 13 with other male attended. Wouldn't 14 speak under flash light. Will meet 15 tomorrow around noon. 16 VINCE GEORGE: There appears to be no 17 one in the Park. 18 Vince George saw Dave George was going 19 to serve, they backed up, refuses -- 20 refused to be served. 21 MARK WRIGHT: Axis points are opened. 22 Do we go?" 23 And I take it that's in connection with 24 what you've just testified to, that -- 25 A: Yes.
1071 Q: -- corresponds to that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the entry at 1:13 hours, just 4 following that: 5 "John Carson established checkpoints. 6 Will hold tight tonight then look at it 7 tomorrow. I don't want anyone going in 8 and getting ambushed." 9 You see that? 10 A: Yes. That would have been in 11 relation to our conversation, yeah, he made a decision 12 not to -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- not to do that. 15 Q: Yeah. At this point, Sergeant 16 George, had you been aware that there was an altercation 17 earlier, on the evening of September the 6th? 18 A: No. 19 Q: September the 4th, pardon me. 20 A: No, I wasn't aware of any altercation 21 that -- that took place prior to that. 22 Q: All right. Can we move then to 23 September the 5th, and I'm going to ask you to turn back 24 to your notes at Tab 10; that's Exhibit P-1291. The 25 front number on that ends in 550, Tuesday the 5th of
1081 September, 1995. 2 And it looks like the first entry is at 3 20:35 hours; is -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Had -- can you perhaps, first of all, 8 tell us when you might have reported to work on that day? 9 A: September 25th... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I would have reported to work 14 Tuesday, the 5th of September, 1995 at 7:00 p.m. in the 15 evening. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: I was also working on a fatal motor 18 vehicle file. 19 Q: Was that in connection with the 20 Ipperwash matter? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. Continue. 23 A: And so I think it was at 20:56 I 24 received a call from the Comm Centre to meet Don Bell who 25 was an intelligence officer.
1091 Q: All right. 2 A: So I -- 3 Q: Did you meet with him? 4 A: Yes, I believe I did. I have a 5 notation here that: 6 "At 9:09 proceed to Forest to see Don 7 Bell." 8 And then: 9 Finished with him at 10:45 p.m. that 10 night. Reviewing some photos." 11 Q: All right. And I take it this would 12 be in connection with the occupation of the Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you have an independent 15 recollection of reviewing photographs or any such thing 16 to attempt to make that identification? 17 A: Not -- not for that specific time but 18 I do have independent recollection that I was viewing 19 photographs, seemed like on a regular basis. 20 Q: All right. In and around this time, 21 Sergeant George, were you asked to become involved as a 22 negotiator or in some fashion involved in attempting to, 23 what you had described earlier in the evening, to serve 24 papers or identify a leader? 25 A: That's the only independent
1101 recollection I have going in behind the barricades 2 regarding the Trespass Notice, but I understand there was 3 some conversation about... 4 Q: Okay. And we'll come that in a 5 moment. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I -- I wanted to ask you, however, 8 were you trained as a negotiator at that point in time? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Perhaps I can ask you to turn 11 back to the document at Tab Number 6; that's the scribe 12 notes. And at page 32 in particular, there's an entry at 13 11:17 hours at the bottom of the page there. Do you see 14 that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: It reads: 17 "A discussion regarding negotiators 18 took place. Sergeant Seltzer once 19 again stated that the same person 20 should negotiate all the way through. 21 Inspector Carson agreed. Sergeant 22 Seltzer suggested talking to Vince 23 George. Inspector Carson said that he 24 is hesitant to do this because Vince 25 George has to live here with these
1111 people. Sergeant Seltzer also talked 2 to Lorne Smith, he's not sure whether 3 he wants to negotiate because he also 4 lives in the area. He does not want to 5 cause concern for his family. 6 Detective Sergeant Wright suggested 7 bringing in Sergeant Marg Eve." 8 And I take it you weren't part of this 9 discussion? It seems that they were having this 10 discussion in your absence? 11 A: Yes. No, I had no part of that 12 conversation. 13 Q: And if we go over to page 33, the 14 following page, it looks like part of the same entry. 15 You see at the top of the page it reads: 16 "Brad Seltzer suggested to John Carson 17 that we use a Native negotiator in the 18 negotiations." 19 First of all, were you aware at all that 20 there was some suggestion that a Native negotiator might 21 be employed? 22 A: No, I -- I don't have any independent 23 recollection of -- of this conversation going on at all. 24 Q: And I appreciate that. 25 A: Yeah.
1121 Q: I take it that you weren't present 2 for that, as you've just indicated. 3 A: No. 4 Q: It goes on to read: 5 "Inspector Carson advised Sergeant 6 Seltzer to contact Vince George. 7 Inspector Carson brought up concerns 8 about Vince George. He doesn't want 9 him to suffer after we leave." 10 That sort of thing. Were you ever 11 contacted by Sergeant Seltzer? 12 A: Not that I can recall. He may have. 13 Q: Okay. And I should just perhaps 14 continue on with -- with that entry. Do you see... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: They go on to talk about perhaps 19 using Mike Hudson as a negotiator, then it reads: 20 "John Carson would like initial contact 21 with Vince George and then switch to a 22 negotiator. It was decided to bring 23 Sergeant Eve in on Sept -- on 6 24 September '95, have Marg Eve and Vince 25 George and then change Vince George to
1131 Mike Hudson. Brad Seltzer to check 2 with Vince George. John Carson 3 stresses to Brad Seltzer that if Vince 4 George is uncomfortable helping us, we 5 respect that." 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And again, you have no recollection 8 whether or not you were actually contacted? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Would you have been uncomfortable, or 11 can you tell us today? 12 A: I don't -- I don't think so. I mean, 13 I still had a relationship with - with people that were 14 in there. It was after 1995 that it -- that it tilted. 15 So I probably would have had -- felt comfortable going 16 in, doing some dialogue, but not as a negotiator. 17 Q: Okay. And if we just continue with 18 that entry, it reads: 19 "Discussion on whether Vince George 20 should be used as a negotiator or as 21 someone to help us behind the scenes in 22 identifying people. 23 Sergeant Seltzer to make arrangement 24 for communication..." 25 And it simply goes on. And again, I take
1141 it you weren't aware that these discussions were going 2 on? 3 A: No. 4 Q: I just want to continue with this 5 same exhibit, if I may, Sergeant George. At page 41 6 there's an entry at the bottom of 16:07 hours, the bottom 7 of the page, and it reads: 8 "Detective Sergeant Bell updated that 9 they were identifying the First Nations 10 occupants. Stated Constable Vince 11 George will be in at 19:00 hours." 12 And you've already indicated to us that 13 you reported to work at 7:00 p.m., that's 19:00 hours. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And it goes on to read: 16 "he is going to swing some shifts to 17 help profile the bad guys. Make a call 18 to Brantford, they may know a couple of 19 the guys." 20 And I'll just read the next entry on that. 21 It says: 22 "Sergeant Seltzer advises there will be 23 no negotiators over night. Constable 24 Dowell can be here in two (2) hours if 25 he's required. Sergeant Eve will be
1151 hear at 08:00 hours, 6 September '95. 2 Constable Vince George has been 3 contacted." 4 Now, you see that that entry is at 16:07 5 hours. The next entry is at 8:42 hours, so some time 6 between that, presumably, the suggestion at least from 7 the scribe notes, is that you were contacted. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And where were you during that period 10 of time; we realize you reported to work at 7:00 p.m. or 11 19:00 hours? 12 A: There's a good possibility that I was 13 asleep. I mean, I was working the night shift. And if 14 there was any contact made they would have woke me up 15 from a sleep. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And if that event would have 20 occurred, I take it you might not have made notes of 21 that? 22 A: No. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1161 Q: And if I can just continue with that 2 same entry. It says: 3 "Constable Vince George has been 4 contacted. He is going to think about 5 our request. Make it clear to him that 6 he is not being pressured to be a 7 negotiator." 8 Again, that doesn't assist you in terms of 9 recalling whether or not you were in fact contacted, as 10 is indicated there? 11 A: No, I don't remember being contacted 12 at all. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And if we turn back to your notes, 17 for that same period of time there is no indication in 18 those notes that you would have been contacted? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You agree with that, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Let's turn, then, to September the 23 6th. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1171 Q: And perhaps just before we go there, 2 I want to ask you to turn to the scribe notes, Exhibit 3 426. There's an entry on page 32. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Pardon me, page 54 and 55, sorry. 8 Bottom of the page at 8:47 hours. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "Sergeant Seltzer arrives. John 11 Carson wants to know what Constable George has 12 decided to do. He has just arrived 13 here now. Discuss with..." 14 And it continues on the next page. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Which I don't seem to have. Just 17 hang on one second if you would please. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Okay. 22 "If it feels comfortable or not, to 23 negotiate. 24 Brad Seltzer feels negotiations will be 25 just dialogue. Have to have someone
1181 that they will talk to. 2 JOHN CARSON: From Constable George's 3 point of view, have him as an 4 introduction person. Have him take 5 them in and have Marg Eve do the 6 talking. Constable George provides a 7 bit of safety to us. Suggest to 8 Constable George that he go in, 9 facilitate the dialogue, not be seen as 10 a dialogue person; just to help us get 11 in there. 12 Sergeant Seltzer agrees with the idea. 13 Sergeant Seltzer feels that First 14 Nations have some acceptance of the 15 female. 16 JOHN CARSON: Do we have anybody else 17 on our negotiation team that is more 18 appropriate? 19 John Carson advises Brad Seltzer that 20 we should have Lorne Smith talk to Bob 21 George." 22 All right. Again, does this assist you in 23 terms of recalling any communications you might have had 24 with Officer Seltzer? 25 A: No.
1191 Q: Or anybody else? 2 A: No. Not in terms of... 3 Q: And at page 56, the entry at 09:03 4 hours again of the scribe notes. Do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: "John Carson wants them to know that 7 we are there. Keep pressing them. 8 Keep some dialogue going. Sergeant 9 Seltzer ask --asks if there's time to 10 introduce Marg Eve. 11 John Carson advises yes, take her in 12 and keep her in there. 13 SERGEANT SELTZER: Any support to 14 thinking that Marg Eve is the one we 15 want them to talk to, let them know 16 that she is a negotiator. 17 JOHN CARSON: We should cross the 18 fence. If we do go in they will come 19 up and talk to us. We have lots of 20 video there and lots of officers. 21 If you go in, someone has to go in and 22 tell you to go out. 23 Sergeant Seltzer agrees that there's 24 enough support there. 25 John Carson stresses to Brad Seltzer
1201 that he wants Vince George to be the 2 introduction guy. Have a lot of 3 respect for his read of the people." 4 I take it you knew -- I'll stop there. I 5 take it you knew John Carson? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what -- in what capacity? 8 A: Well, he was the Detachment Commander 9 while I was in Forest. So we worked right under his 10 supervision. 11 Q: Okay. And it goes on to read: 12 "John Carson stresses to Brad Seltzer 13 that if he wants Vince George to be the 14 introduction guy. Have a lot of 15 respect for his read of the people. 16 SERGEANT SELTZER: Some cultural 17 things, he will be able to keep us at - 18 - he will be able to help us with." 19 Can you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And does that assist you at all in 22 recalling that -- what function you might -- you might 23 serve? 24 A: No. I -- I don't remember having 25 conversations about any further dialogue following that
1211 night with the trespass notice. 2 Q: Let me last -- almost lastly, take 3 you to page 58 if I may. There's an entry at 10:06 4 hours. It reads: 5 "Brad Seltzer is leaving. Constable 6 Vince George making a contact in Grand 7 Bend." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And it goes on at the middle - 10 - at the middle of that -- that entry it says: 11 "SERGEANT SELTZER: Constable George 12 is on board with the plan. Advised we 13 need him to facilitate our presence. 14 Constable George feels it's time for an 15 arrest. 16 Show them it's a big plan happening. 17 Show them that we have a plan. Will 18 give us a psychological plan and may 19 encourage them to talk because if one 20 of their people is gone arrested, they 21 may talk. 22 Sergeant Seltzer left for Kettle 23 Point." 24 Does that assist you, sir, in terms of 25 recalling any of the discussion or what your input might
1221 have been? 2 A: No, that doesn't help at all in terms 3 of this whole topic. 4 Q: And is that something that you have 5 an independent recollection of that you might have made 6 those kinds of suggestions? 7 And not necessarily at that point in time 8 but at any time? 9 A: Which suggestions? 10 Q: The suggestion that it's time for an 11 arrest that -- show them it's -- it's a big plan. 12 A: Yeah. I mean, somebody's walked into 13 the room while someone's scribing and -- and obviously 14 may have had some conversation with me. I -- I don't 15 know what context of those comments were made. 16 They may have been throwing ideas around 17 how to resolve this and -- and yeah, arrests are just a 18 normal part of policing in -- in these kinds of 19 circumstances. 20 Q: And just lastly in this area, 21 Sergeant George, at page 59 there's an entry at 10:19 22 hours. I want to ask you to look down to the fifth full 23 paragraph. It starts, "Marg Eve advised". 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes.
1231 Q: "Marg Eve advised Brad Seltzer went 2 to Kettle Point. Vince George went to 3 Grand Bend to meet with a contact." 4 I take it that this is the -- the 5 individual that you were obtaining information from 6 regarding the goings on within the -- the Army Camp and 7 now the Park,I take it? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it goes on to read: 10 "John Carson doing community background 11 with Earl Bressette and Knobby George. 12 Get them online to what we are doing." 13 Do you see that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you have any involvement in terms 16 of doing that background with Earl Bressette and Knobby 17 George? 18 A: No. 19 Q: It goes on to read: 20 "Lorne -- Lorne Smith is helping Brad 21 Seltzer. Want to use Sergeant Eve as 22 contact person. Constable George with 23 -- be involved with them as a contact 24 person. Only to be introduction guy, 25 not a spokesperson. Constable George,
1241 try to find out who their spokesperson 2 is." 3 Okay. And I take it that doesn't assist 4 you as you've already indicated in response to my earlier 5 questions? 6 A: Yeah, no. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 A: That doesn't mean -- I mean if -- if 9 they did have that conversation with me I would have felt 10 comfortable doing that but I don't recall. 11 Q: You don't take issue with what's -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: -- with what's reported there? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Perhaps I can take you 16 back to your -- to your notes. These are the notes at 17 Tab 10 Exhibit 1291. 18 And for that period of time, do you see at 19 page 33? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Tab 10? 24 Q: At Tab -- the notes at Tab 10, yes; 25 that's for Wednesday the 6th of September, 1995, the
1251 entry from 08:30 to 12:30 hours? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: General Intelligence, Ipperwash 4 Incident? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: If I can ask you just to recall for 11 us what -- what does that mean; General Intelligence, 12 Ipperwash incident? 13 A: I've been thinking about that. It 14 probably has to do with meeting this person. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: Obtaining more information and then 17 doing some other -- some other inquiries around Kettle 18 Point at that time. 19 Q: Okay. Well, let me -- let me ask you 20 to turn to the front part of that same document at Tab 21 Number 10. And if you go into the fourth page the entry 22 at the top; these are the typewritten notes, 06 23 September, '95? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you see that?
1261 "My duty notebook that I kept indicates 2 that at 08:30 to 12:30 hours I was 3 working to gather general intelligence 4 information and probably spoke to 5 [there's question marks to indicate the 6 individual you had spoken to]. Notes 7 about those were kept in a separate 8 notebook that I was keeping." 9 And we've already had a chance to look at 10 those, right? Those are the notes at Tab Number 2 marked 11 as Exhibit 1291? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: 1292, pardon me. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And if you -- if you want to just 18 keep following with me: 19 "Contact with [blank]. Talked about 20 Les and Russ." 21 I take it that's Les and Russ Jewel? 22 A: Where are we at? I'm lost, Mr. 23 Worme. 24 Q: Sorry. Do you see where -- 25 A: Okay.
1271 Q: -- where it says that you were to 2 gather general intelligence information? 3 "I probably spoke to [blank] at this 4 time. Notes about those conversation 5 and meetings were kept in a separate 6 book I was keeping." 7 A: Okay, yes. 8 Q: "Contact with [blank]. Talked about 9 Les and Russ." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. 12 "Went to Grand River last night." 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 "Buck Doxtator said he had guns in the 16 Park with about six (6) guys from 17 Muncey. Chris wasn't with Buck. I 18 don't recall who Chris is regarding 19 this comment. Spoke of the vehicle, a 20 van, Ontario plate [it's described]. 21 Said he was at Oka. I presume that 22 [blank] was talking about Chris or Buck 23 Doxtator. Talk of coming into the Park 24 through the camp side. Rus and Tina 25 were staying in the maintenance
1281 building and MNR jacket was being worn 2 by Marion, Caver's woman's kid. He was 3 the only one wearing an MNR jacket. 4 He's about fourteen (14) or fifteen 5 (15) years old." 6 You see that? This is the kind of 7 information, I take it, that you would have been putting 8 directly into the separate notebook that you were -- you 9 were maintaining? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that's the notebook at -- at Tab 12 number 2? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: If I ask you to turn to that exhibit 17 at 1292, and you see the entry on your page 10, September 18 the 6th of '95? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It reads: 24 "Les and Rus went to Grand River last 25 night. Buck Doxtator said he had
1291 enough guns in the Park with..." 2 A: "With about six (6) guys from 3 Muncey." 4 Q: Right. 5 A: Do you want me to read that? 6 Q: Well, you can just tell us if, in 7 fact, the information you recorded there simply 8 corresponds to that that you have on the typewritten page 9 that I've just taken you to. 10 A: Yes. These -- these notes here in 11 the second -- 12 Q: Right. 13 A: -- notebook which you -- 14 Q: Go to the bottom of the page, I'm 15 sorry, Sergeant. I may have cut you off there. 16 A: No, go ahead. 17 Q: The bottom of page 10 reads: 18 "A white car, old white [is that] 19 flag"? 20 A: Yeah: 21 "White car, old white flag, General Lee 22 flag." 23 Q: Okay. Then on the next page there's 24 a -- a bit of a map and I wonder if you can describe 25 that?
1301 A: Yeah, that's where the -- the subject 2 I was talking to was -- was discussing how -- how they 3 thought there were further -- there was another land 4 claim issue across from the Ipperwash Park, so we're 5 talking about Ipperwash Park which is the subject of this 6 discussion. And he indicates on the opposite side of 7 Army Camp Road to the west of there, by the dotted lines. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: By the dotted lines and that there 10 may be another land claim issue there. 11 Q: And that's with respect to the -- the 12 beach side, if I can put it that way? 13 A: Yes, that's right on the corner of 14 Army Camp Road where it turns into East Parkway Drive. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: Right on that corner. The -- I think 17 it's the south -- 18 Q: All right. You see the entry right 19 at the bottom of the page, it says, "OPP Who." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: What's that about? 22 A: I think that's about the vehicle that 23 had OPP Who on it, it was related to Robert Isaac from 24 Walpole. 25 Q: All right.
1311 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Perhaps you can just go ahead and 4 read the balance of those entries, from 10:49. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: 10:49 -- 9 Q: And there's just a couple of entries 10 in there -- 11 A: Yeah. Obviously, I was driving by 12 Dave's place, I seen Tracey George there, who I presume 13 is Tracey Elwood George, at Dave's place on Highway 21 14 near the range area. 15 And then at eleven o'clock, I was probably 16 coming back from Grand Bend then, when meet with this 17 individual. 18 Spotted Tracey there and then at eleven 19 o'clock I went to the Hector Smith residence at Kettle 20 Point to -- to find out if he had heard anything about a 21 car load coming from Walpole. 22 And I don't think we had any information 23 about anybody coming from Walpole -- 24 Q: Then the entry at 13:15 hours. 25 A: 13:15 hours, that's I went -- as a
1321 result of a request from Mark Wright, I began 2 interviewing people at Kettle Point, some of the older 3 people, about whether or not they have ever heard of this 4 burial site in the Park. 5 And that's as far as I got with Mervin, 6 the only person that I had an opportunity to speak to, 7 and then later on with my father. 8 Q: Okay. Well we'll come to -- we'll 9 come to that in a moment. You've indicated that 10 Detective Sergeant Wright asked you to look into the 11 burial ground in the Park issue; is that -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- is that fair? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you know when that might have 16 been asked of you? 17 A: I'm thinking that's early in the day 18 at the Forest Office. 19 Q: We know from your notes that you 20 reported to the Forest Office at 8:00 a.m. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And then your notes would also 23 indicate that you then went on general intelligence from 24 8:30 hours to 12:30 -- or 12 -- 12:00 hours? 25 A: Yes.
1331 Q: I take it you don't have any specific 2 recollection as to the time when you might have received 3 this request from Detective Sergeant Wright? 4 A: No, no specific time, but I would -- 5 I would think that it was in the morning when I arrived. 6 Q: And as a result of being asked to 7 perform this task, did you have any comment or did you 8 have any -- any observations in that regard? 9 A: Well, I do remember that specifically 10 I had a conversation with him about, you know, about why 11 are we making this request right now, meaning we've -- 12 we've known of this impending thing of going into -- to 13 the Ipperwash Park. 14 And I sort of asked him, you know, Why are 15 we doing this now, isn't it kind of late? And he 16 indicated, Well, we -- we sort of did something about it. 17 And my concern was the colour of right implications. 18 Q: And the -- those implications, that 19 is colour of right implications, how -- why did that 20 concern you? 21 A: Well, because I -- I had previous 22 experience with the West Ipperwash land claim situation, 23 as we spoke of earlier. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: And the charges relating to the West
1341 Ipperwash case were -- were dismissed by the Crown 2 because of colour of right. And that's -- that's all 3 associated to the Bob Rae, Temagami incident. We didn't 4 -- been instructed as investigators that -- that we need 5 to be mindful of colour of right issues. 6 I presume that, you know, we -- we ought 7 to be looking at that at the onset, embarking on an 8 investigation to find out whether or not there is any 9 colour of issues. 10 Q: And just so I understand clearly on 11 this point, Sergeant George, the West Ipperwash Beach 12 incident, you've described that for us earlier this 13 morning, that there was posts that were taken down. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And as I understand it you had laid 16 some charges as a consequence of that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what became of those charges? 19 A: The charges were withdrawn because of 20 the colour of right issue. 21 Q: I see. And I take it that that's 22 what you were inquiring of Detective Sergeant Wright, and 23 you've indicated as you've spoken to him, Why are we 24 doing this now? 25 A: Yeah. It just seemed odd that we
1351 were beginning to get an interest in the colour of right 2 issue at that late stage, when we knew some time in 3 advance that the Park may be occupied, the Ipperwash Park 4 -- Provincial Park. 5 And as you can see by my note taking there 6 was a shift in my -- a shift in -- in what I was doing in 7 terms of information gathering and then heading down to 8 Kettle Point to begin to talk to people about whether 9 they've ever heard of any -- 10 Q: When you say there's a shift in your 11 note taking you're -- you're talking about your notes at 12 Exhibit P-1292? 13 A: Well, September the 6th -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- 1995, yes. 16 Q: All right. If I can ask you just to 17 turn back to the entries that -- that are included at P- 18 1291; that's the document at Tab 10. If you go in four 19 (4) pages, and I had you look at this earlier, Sergeant 20 George, that's the entries under September the 5th of 21 '95? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And if we can just -- if I can just 24 ask you to turn down to approximately the middle of that 25 page:
1361 "11:00 hours I spoke to Hector Smith at 2 this -- at this time regarding a group 3 of people." 4 I think you've already told us about that? 5 A: "11:00 hours spoke to Hector Smith at 6 this time regarding a group of people 7 heading this way from Walpole Island?" 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then you go on to say: 11 "Note at 13:15 hours spoke to Mervin 12 Lunham about any stories he could tell 13 me regarding a burial site in the 14 Provincial Park. The only one he knew 15 of was near the dump." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: "This is the only one I was aware of 18 as well." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And is that in relation to the Park? 21 A: The burial site at the dump would be 22 inside the Army Base. 23 Q: All right. And that's the one that - 24 - one you've described to us earlier this morning that 25 you had occasion to attend that with your father.
1371 A: Yes. 2 Q: And perhaps I can just ask you to go 3 to -- towards the bottom of that page. And I think you 4 were indicating earlier when I was asking you whether you 5 made any further inquiries, and in fact you did make 6 further inquiries about this possibility, as per 7 Detective Sergeant Wright's request to you. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I'm going to take you just to the 10 middle of that paragraph that commences with, 11 "Maintenance area." 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Do you see that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Just following the sentence: 16 "I was off-duty at 20:00 hours." 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay? And perhaps I might ask you if 19 you would just go ahead and read that, if you would, 20 please. 21 A: "I was off-duty at 20:00 hours as it 22 was around this time that Mark Wright 23 asked me to interview people as to the 24 legitimacy of the burial site; that 25 issue at Ipperwash Provincial Park.
1381 I'd asked him as to why he hadn't 2 followed this up before." 3 I called my parents later on that night. 4 Although I don't have that in there, I called my parents: 5 "Discussed ID's in terms of resolving 6 this issue with them. We talked about 7 whether or not an organized community 8 feast would help. Something of that 9 nature." 10 And I guess I'm speaking with my mother: 11 "She heard from someone that apparently 12 there was a report of one there. I 13 then spoke to my father who advised me 14 that Cliff George told him that a 15 backhoe driver had dug up bones on 16 Matheson Drive near the maintenance 17 shed area. The bones were just buried 18 again." 19 And we talked about grandfather, about 20 my grandfather Robert George Sr. ever 21 talking about it and he said that -- 22 that his dad never talked about those 23 things." 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: That was the extent of it.
1391 Q: That's the extent of the 2 investigation that you would have undertaken pursuant to 3 Detective Sergeant Wright's request of you to look at the 4 issue. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Can you tell us then, 7 sir, what you would have done next in terms of the 6th of 8 September 1995? And perhaps you might want to turn to 9 your notebook entries, it's the same tab, front number 10 ending in 551. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. See the entry at 12:03 hours? 13 A: 12:03? 14 Q: Is that -- oh, I guess I should ask 15 you, is that 12:03 there? 16 A: Which date are we on, the 5th? 17 Q: We're on the 6th of September 1995, 18 it's your page 33. 19 A: It's page 33? Yes, after 8:30, 20 12:03, 17:03. 21 Q: Pardon me. 22 A: "17:03 I finished photos of suspects 23 at the Forest OPP station." 24 And then I went there for a helicopter 25 detail.
1401 Q: Okay. 2 "Forest OPP station to helicopter." 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And do we take from that that that's 5 where you would have boarded the -- the helicopter? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what can you tell us about, 8 firstly the helicopter and what happened? 9 A: The helicopter was a Ministry of 10 Natural Resources helicopter. It was in the back -- the 11 back farm field area of the Detachment at that time. 12 Q: And who are you with and -- and what 13 happened? 14 A: I was with -- there was a Ministry of 15 Natural Resources helicopter pilot. I was with Phil 16 George who was also a member of the OPP, and with 17 Constable Paul Evans. He was a forensic officer at that 18 time taking photographs or video, I can't recall what he 19 was taking. 20 Q: All right. And your -- your duty? 21 A: Our duty was to go up and identify 22 people from the helicopter who are inside the Provincial 23 Park. 24 Q: So I take it from that, you flew to 25 the Provincial Park?
1411 A: Yes. 2 Q: And tell us about that flight? 3 A: We -- we went on a helicopter, we did 4 a -- the helicopter pilot did a sweep of the, let me see, 5 the camping area and then the maintenance building area. 6 Q: Was there anything remarkable about 7 that flight that you can tell us? 8 A: He was flying pretty low, too low for 9 my liking at that time. 10 Q: All right. Why was he doing that? 11 A: I thought he was trying to tick off 12 the -- the people on the inside there. 13 Q: And what was the effect of flying too 14 low, as you've put it, too low for your liking I think 15 was the way you put it. 16 What was the effect on the ground, if you 17 could -- if you could see? 18 A: Well, there were like stones flying 19 all over the place, in terms of that -- the manoeuvring 20 there. 21 Q: And as a result of -- of that 22 particular flight, do you know what, if anything, 23 happened? 24 A: I think he was sent home following 25 that, as a result of that. That's the information I had,
1421 the helicopter pilot was sent home as a result of that, 2 the manoeuvre. 3 Q: I'm sorry? 4 A: As a result of that manoeuvring, the 5 way he was flying. 6 Q: If I can ask you then just to turn 7 back to your notes at page 33, at 17:57 hours. I take it 8 this is the notations that you would have made as a 9 result of this helicopter flight? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: You see where it says "the Park area" 12 after -- I should ask you to read that. 13 A: Yes. So it was a note made at 17:57 14 which is 5:57 p.m. 15 "We were back on the ground after 16 viewing the Park area near the store 17 and then the maintenance area. And the 18 store area I identified Pierre George, 19 Les Jewel, Bonnie Bressette, Fred 20 Bressette. Bonnie being a band 21 councillor. Sitting on a picnic table 22 with -- with the folks there. 23 Roderick George, Robert Isaac, Tracey 24 George [which would have been Tracey 25 Elwood George, Abe's boy]. Sherry
1431 George [which would have been Tracey's 2 girlfriend] Anthony O'Brien George, 3 [which would have been Dudley] and 4 young children, young children about 5 there and Dave Abraham George. 6 That was in the store area. And then 7 the maintenance area, I observed Marlin 8 Simon, out pumping gas, into the yellow 9 Warren George bus. 10 Then into a five (5) -- a blue, five 11 (5) gallon gas can. He had a purple 12 shirt on, maroon baseball cap. Tina 13 Rene George was there leaving in a car. 14 There was another male with her, a 15 camouflage jacket, long hair and 16 baseball cap." 17 I didn't know who he was. That was the 18 extent of the helicopter ride. 19 Q: All right. And at 18:10 hours, you 20 engaged in looking at photographs with Provincial 21 Constable Phil George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you went off duty at 20:00 hours? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay.
1441 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And, sir, when you went off duty on 4 that evening, did you have any expectation that anything 5 might further develop? 6 A: Well my note -- notes indicate that I 7 -- I called -- probably called my parents from -- from 8 home and I was a little concerned as to, at least my 9 recollection a little concerned as to, you know, how -- 10 how we might resolve this thing. 11 We talked about, you know, generating a 12 community feast or something to go talk and so forth. 13 And then we got on to the -- the idea of, you know, the 14 burial site. 15 Q: Okay. When you say that you were 16 concerned, what were you concerned about? 17 A: Well, the build up, I think, you 18 know, the build up of personnel, our personnel, the OPP 19 personnel and I don't have any recollection of why, you 20 know, or note taking in terms of -- of that. 21 But I was concerned at that point that, 22 you know, we needed to resolve that. 23 Q: And can you help us out in terms of 24 what do you mean by a community feast and how would that 25 assist in resolving?
1451 A: Well, I thought, like, we were still 2 on speaking terms with -- with family members that were 3 in there. I thought maybe if we all, you know, generated 4 in mass to go talk to them and -- and generate some kind 5 of community feast or something where we can sit down and 6 talk about this, that might help resolve the issue, but 7 it never got that far. 8 Q: Okay. What's the next thing that 9 happens? 10 A: Well, the next thing that happens is 11 I think I get woke up in the middle of the night. I get 12 woke up in the middle of the night regarding threats. 13 Q: Tell us about that. 14 A: Yeah it was -- I think it was about 15 2:45 or 3:00 in the morning. 16 Actually, it was Thursday the 7th of 17 September '95 at, I think it was 12:46 a.m. 18 I have a note here that Sarnia police were 19 at my front door. 20 Q: You're looking at your notebook at 21 page 35, Exhibit 1291? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And aside from the entry in 24 your notebook, do you have an independent recollection of 25 that?
1461 A: Of that? Yes. I was woke up. They 2 had to be pounding on the door because I had my door bell 3 disconnected because of being a shift worker. 4 And I went to the door where there was red 5 lights flashing and so forth. I opened the door and 6 Sarnia police officers were there indicating they had 7 been sent there by -- by the OPP, our people, to -- to 8 the First Nations officers that were members. At that 9 time they had received threats. 10 So following that I -- I listened to a 11 taped conversation about -- about that. 12 Q: Okay. And perhaps we might just play 13 that taped conversation and you can tell us if that's the 14 conversation you would have heard. I should also 15 indicate that there should be inside the inside cover, a 16 transcript of what appears to be a transcript of Chatham 17 Communications Centre logger tape number 147 track 5. 18 It is marked Vince George Comm Centre, 19 September 7th, 1995 and the time on that is 01:24:42. 20 All right. Perhaps we can go ahead and play that. 21 22 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 23 24 [VG = Constable Vince George] 25 [CC = Comm. Centre]
1471 CC: You there? 2 VG: Yeah. 3 CC: Okay. 4 5 Recorded call is played: 6 7 CC: OPP in Chatham. What is your emergency? 8 Unknown: You fucking cocksuckers. You shot my 9 cousin. 10 CC: Hello? 11 Unknown: You guys fucking shot 'em. You guys are 12 going to fucking pay for this. 13 CC: It's the OPP in Chatham. Can I help you? 14 Unknown: Yeah, fucking OPP. Down here, you 15 cocksuckers. You shot my cousin. ... 16 inaudible ... Luke, Vince, Speedy, ... 17 inaudible 18 19 End of recorded call 20 21 VG: At the very end there ... inaudible... the 22 word Phillip. 23 CC: Oh, is that right? 24 VG: Yeah. 25 CC: Yeah.
1481 VG: Nothing else? 2 CC: That's it. 3 VG: I didn't hear him say they're coming after 4 us. Other than Luke, Vince, Speedy. 5 That's Tracy George. 6 CC: That's Tracy George? 7 VG: Yeah. Well, it sounds like him. 8 CC: Yeah. It came in on the 911. 9 VG: And that came out of the park apparently, 10 according to Sarnia. 11 CC: Yeah. It came - I have - I've got it 12 written down in my notes. It came from 13 the Ipperwash Park Store, 9780 Army Camp 14 Road, and the phone number. 15 VG: Oh, yeah. Is anybody saying what 16 developed? 17 Because I just spoke to Mark Wright 18 briefly, other than ... 19 CC: Hm-mmm. You mean the extent of injury? 20 VG: No, no. I know that. But - 21 CC: Well, we don't know that. 22 VG: Oh, okay. 23 CC: Is he dead or what? 24 VG: No. Well, I was just wondering whether we 25 knew at the Comm. - well, you guys are not
1491 connected with them, right? 2 CC: No. We're in Chatham. 3 VG: Yeah. 4 CC: And the only time we hear from them is a 5 request: get this, get that, da-da-da, 6 da-da-da, da-da-da. And we don't - and 7 then I happened to take this 911 call. 8 VG: Yeah. 9 CC: And that's it. And I told the boss - my 10 Sergeant here, two Sergeants, he's saying 11 this ... inaudible ... he's saying that. 12 VG: Yeah. He didn't mean it. 13 CC: Yeah. So. 14 VG: Okay. 15 CC: And then you know that we've got your 16 names on the board, the addresses. If 17 there's any calls whatsoever, it's your 18 top priority. 19 VG: Yeah. 20 CC: Okay. 21 VG: All right. 22 CC: And all the PD's are made aware of it and 23 they're watching, you know. 24 VG: Yeah. Okay. 25 CC: So you think it's Tracy George, eh?
1501 VG: It sounds like it. 2 CC: Okay, then. 3 VG: Okay? 4 CC: Thanks. 5 VG: Bye. 6 CC: Bye-bye. 7 End of conversation 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: And perhaps I could ask that the -- 13 this transcript be marked as the next exhibit and we'll 14 mark as well a copy of the disk together with this as one 15 (1) exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1293, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1293: Transcript and audio CD of 19 Region 01, Vince George, Comm 20 Centre, September 07, 1995, 21 01:24:42, Chatham 22 Communications Centre, Logger 23 tape number 147, Track 05, 24 Disc 05 of 20. 25
1511 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: And Sergeant George, is that your 3 voice on that conversation? Do you recognize your voice? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that is the conversation that you 6 would have listened to? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. You were able to follow 9 along in the transcript as well? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Is anything there that doesn't 12 correspond to the transcript that you might have heard? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And you see just at the 15 bottom of the transcript then that is marked -- you see 16 where it says: 17 "VG: I didn't hear him say they're 18 coming after us." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And just before we go back -- let me 21 go back to the -- where the recorded call is played. It 22 says: 23 "Yeah, fucking OPP down here. You 24 cocksuckers, you shot my cousin. 25 (inaudible) Luke, Vince, Speedy
1521 (inaudible)." 2 And who is this they're describing? 3 A: Pardon me? 4 Q: Who are those names; Luke, Vince, 5 Speedy? I take it Vince is you? 6 A: Yeah. Luke George would be brother. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Vince, myself. Speedy would be 9 Carmen Bressette; he's also a member of the OPP. 10 Q: And then your comment at the bottom 11 of the page: 12 "I didn't hear them say -- I didn't 13 hear him say they're coming after us." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then you -- other than Luke, 16 Vince, Speedy, and you go on to say, That's Tracy George. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And is that who you described earlier 19 as Tracy Elwood? Tracy George? 20 A: Tracy Elwood, yes. 21 Q: All right. And beyond having this 22 identification that you've made here in this transcript, 23 did you have any further involvement in dealing with this 24 particular incident? 25 A: No, other than I met the individual
1531 that I'd been speaking to again following that. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: Following the shooting. 4 Q: Do you know whether or not there were 5 any charges brought as a result of what is said on this 6 tape and your identification of Tracy George? 7 A: No, I -- I don't think so. I don't 8 think there were any charges laid. 9 Q: And just at the end of that same 10 document -- pardon me, at the bottom of page 2 of 3 where 11 the Communication Centre says: 12 "Yeah. And that's it. I told my boss, 13 my sergeant here, two (2) sergeants. 14 He's saying this [inaudible]. He's 15 saying that." 16 And you comment: 17 "Yeah. He didn't mean it." 18 Do you know what that's about? 19 A: It probably had to do with Tracy's 20 comments. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: You know, probably just upset at -- 23 at the time and wouldn't -- wouldn't actually be a threat 24 to me. 25
1541 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: If I can take you to just to the top 4 of that page, if I may. And -- and I'm looking at your 5 comment: 6 "Oh yeah, is anybody saying what 7 developed, because I just spoke to Mark 8 Wright briefly other than -- 9 Hmm hmm. You mean the extent of 10 injury? 11 VINCE GEORGE: No, no. I know that but 12 -- 13 Well, we don't know that. 14 VINCE GEORGE: Oh. okay." 15 And then Chatham Communications: 16 "Is he dead or what? 17 VINCE GEORGE: No, I was just 18 wondering whether we need a Comm." 19 What are you talking about at this point? 20 I take it you would have had some discussion with 21 Detective Sergeant Wright at that point? 22 A: Yeah. I don't -- I don't remember -- 23 I don't remember any of that, I mean it was pretty 24 emotional, eh? 25 Q: All right.
1551 A: We discovered that, you know, Dudley 2 was shot. 3 Q: And did you know at that point in 4 time that he was dead? 5 A: I made a call to the Strathroy 6 Hospital and -- and found out. 7 Q: If we take a look at your notebook, 8 your -- your entry for September the 6th, '95 at 02:09 9 hours; it's Exhibit P-1291? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you want to just go ahead and read 12 that to us please? 13 A: Yes, I -- 14 "At 2:09 a.m. I called the Strathroy 15 Hospital, telephone number 245-1550, 16 and spoke to Spike George [which is my 17 brother Ron] and George Speck [they 18 were at the hospital] and Reg George 19 there, [which is Reg George, Jr., my 20 cousin, he was there]. [And] Dudley 21 was deceased. He was shot in the 22 chest. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1561 A: And then I called Brad Seltzer to try 2 and get an update. He wasn't offering too much 3 information. 4 Q: I take it at some point in time you 5 would have -- you would have understood that besides 6 Dudley dying from the shot in the chest, that there were 7 others that were perhaps injured? Did you learn any of 8 that other information, and if so, when? 9 A: Yeah. I learned later on that other 10 people were injured in that -- that process, ERT team 11 members, I think Nick Cottrelle was -- was hurt as well. 12 Q: All right. And can you tell us, 13 Sergeant George, about what your involvement was 14 subsequent to this event you've just now described? 15 A: Subsequent to that I was -- I was 16 asked to view some more video footage regarding two (2) 17 damaged vehicles and so forth. As a result of viewing 18 some video footage charges were laid against an 19 individual from Kettle Point. 20 Q: That would be Jeremiah George? 21 A: Jeremiah George, yes. 22 Q: Do you know what happened insofar as 23 that charge as against Jeremiah George? 24 A: Yeah, the charges were withdrawn, 25 relying heavily on my identification of individual, but
1571 the -- the video coverage was so inconsistent in terms of 2 -- of how it was being delivered. 3 We had one (1) -- one (1) seg -- segment 4 that was Jeremiah George in similar clothing without a 5 bandana. And then we had another segment with a similar 6 person with the same clothing with a bandana on. 7 And the final result was I indicated to 8 the Judge that, without -- without the one segment, I 9 wouldn't be able to identify the individual with the 10 bandana. 11 So the charges were dismissed. 12 Q: All right. And if I ask you to turn 13 to your document, your notebook at Tab number 2, Exhibit 14 1292, or the intelligence notes, if I can put it that 15 way. 16 At your page 14 of that, there's an entry 17 Friday, 29th September '95. 18 A: 29th of September? 19 Q: 29 September '95. You with me there, 20 page 14? 21 A: Page 14, yeah. 22 Q: And I'll suggest to you that that is 23 the last entry in -- in this intelligence notebook; 24 that's right, is it? 25 A: Yes.
1581 Q: And I take it from this that you 2 would have then met with the individual that you told us 3 about and this is again additional information that you 4 would have obtained from him, pursuant to your task? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And can you tell us, just briefly, 7 sir, what the contents of these last -- of this last 8 entry? 9 A: The contents of the last entry there 10 on Friday the 29th of September, 1995 was that the 11 subject was relaying information to me that Martin 12 Doxtator was inside as a Mohawk in camouflage, and 13 Patrick -- a guy named Patrick from Sault Ste. Marie in 14 the Park. 15 Robin Maness was looking after the fire. 16 No talk that he -- 17 Q: What -- what fire is that? I'm sorry 18 to interrupt you, sir. 19 A: Probably a -- a spiritual fire. 20 Q: All right. And continue. 21 A: No talk that he knew of regarding the 22 Pinery Park being the next one. And there's thirty (30) 23 -- thirty (30) to seventy (70) more people there on 24 weekends; all Henry's from Muncey and Oneida. 25 And Buck Doxtator is there with
1591 girlfriend. And then I have that redacted. 2 And people working in the kitchen; Gina, 3 Cully and Marcia. And there's some guy running from Six 4 Nations with supplies, like gasoline. That's page 14. 5 Q: All right. In terms of the 6 information that would be of particular value, that is 7 information about weapons, or the sort, you have no 8 entries in that respect? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So you received no information, can 11 we take from that that there were these sort of items 12 around? 13 At least through your informant, that 14 that's the information he would have been providing you? 15 A: This information here? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And I take it you had no 19 other involvement with this matter, up until -- following 20 that last entry? 21 A: No, that was the extent of it. 22 Q: Okay. Just a couple of final 23 questions, Sergeant, if I may. 24 We have heard something about mugs and t- 25 shirts that had some relevance or some connection to the
1601 Ipperwash incident. 2 Were you aware of any of that; did you 3 have any involvement in any respect insofar as mugs and 4 t-shirts? 5 A: Yeah. In relation to the mugs and t- 6 shirts, they were -- we heard that ERT team members were 7 wearing them around and so that it became an issue. 8 Following that information, I was in the 9 Forest office one day and t-shirts and mugs were being 10 sold there openly, in the -- the office. 11 I pulled George Speck aside and told him 12 to, you know, get these things out of here, it wasn't 13 appropriate. 14 Q: Did you actually see the mugs and 15 T-shirts? 16 A: Well they -- yeah, they were sitting 17 -- I didn't see the logo, but I seen the T-shirts and the 18 mugs sitting there. 19 Q: When you say it's inappropriate, what 20 was inappropriate about it? 21 A: Well it was inappropriate that -- I 22 mean it was offensive to me that we would be selling T- 23 shirts and mugs as some kind of souvenir following 24 someone's death. 25 I mean I was involved in the -- the
1611 Woodstock tornado disaster area, they were selling T- 2 shirts and mugs there for, you know, for a fund raising. 3 But in this circumstance I just thought it was 4 inappropriate to be selling them as souvenirs for the 5 event. 6 Q: All right. I want to ask you lastly, 7 Sergeant George, whether you might have any 8 recommendations or any observation, through your 9 experience, that might be of assistance to the 10 Commissioner in discharging his mandate. 11 However, I -- I also want to ask you 12 before I -- before I get you to answer that question, 13 just to tell us how this event has impacted on you? How 14 did this make you feel? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Well it's destroyed relationships, 19 you know, first of all. 20 Q: I -- I recognize, Officer, that this 21 is difficult for you and perhaps, Commissioner, I wonder 22 if we might take the lunch break at this moment and if 23 Sergeant George has anything further to -- to reply, that 24 we give him that opportunity upon returning this 25 afternoon.
1621 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, that's 2 fine. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll do 5 that. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: And perhaps just 7 before we do that, might we canvass the -- the parties as 8 to their estimates in what they might see in taking by 9 way of cross-examination. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 11 Anybody have any questions of Sergeant George? 12 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Five (5) 14 minutes or less. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Roland...? 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: The same. Five (5) 18 minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 20 where you fit in the scheme of things. You're not 21 representing him, so I guess you would come now. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Five (5) minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 24 minutes. 25 Ms. Esmonde...?
1631 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Fifteen (15) to 2 thirty (30) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're the 4 other way around. 5 Mr. Scullion...? 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think you missed a 7 couple. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 9 McAleer...? I'm sorry. I haven't got a page in front of 10 me and I'm mixed up with the order. 11 Ms. McAleer...? 12 MR. DONALD WORME: Sorry, Commissioner, 13 I -- 14 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Two (2) minutes or 15 less. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 17 Scullion...? 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: There's one (1) more 19 over there. 20 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Two (2) minutes or 21 less. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now Mr. 23 Scullion...? 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'm on now. Half an 25 hour.
1641 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 2 Johnson...? 3 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Half an hour, 4 please. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: Perhaps half an hour 7 depending on what others cover. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have a 9 pretty good idea then of where we are. We should be able 10 to finish today without any problem. 11 All right. Are we ready to adjourn for 12 lunch? 13 MR. DONALD WORME: I think it would be a 14 good time. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 16 we do, I understand and everybody here knows we have a 17 mathematician in our midst, and as I understand it some 18 significant event may occur, depending on when we come 19 back after lunch, or perhaps even during lunch. 20 Perhaps I'll have Mr. Rosenthal explain 21 what the significant event is. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I wouldn't 23 have phrased it quite that way, Mr. Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And it has nothing
1651 to do with my being a mathematician. Actually one of my 2 sons, Michael Rosenthal, sent me an e-mail about this. 3 I'm told it's been on the radio. But it turns out that 4 if we were to reconvene at say two (2) minutes and three 5 (3) seconds after one o'clock today, then if you look at 6 the time and the month and the day and the year, it would 7 be 01-02-03-04-05-06. 8 Now when I sent out an e-mail about this 9 to people this morning, Mr. Henderson pointed out we have 10 another opportunity in May. If you do the order of the 11 month and day differently in May, there'll be a similar 12 opportunity. 13 Unfortunately, we won't be sitting on May 14 4th, so this is the only opportunity for the Inquiry to 15 note this. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's 17 quite an unusual configuration -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- of 20 numbers? Thank you very much, Mr. Rosenthal. 21 MR. DONALD WORME: It seems like as good 22 a reason as any. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're not 24 going to come back at two (2) minutes after 1:00, we're 25 going to come back at ten (10) minutes after 1:00, is
1661 that right? 2 THE REGISTRAR: Right on. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: All right. Thank you. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 7 adjourned until 1:10. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 12:10 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 1:10 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DONALD WORME: I think our witness 18 just stepped out for a moment. He'll be here 19 momentarily. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, carry 24 on. 25
1671 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 2 Q: Sergeant George, I had asked you, 3 again, just how this whole event, how did it impact on 4 you, how did it make you feel? I believe you were -- you 5 were providing a response that, again you'll correct me 6 if I'm wrong, but that a lot of relationships were 7 impacted, were destroyed, I think were your words? 8 A: Yes. Relationships with family, 9 extended family, as well as the community, and 10 relationships with other OPP officers. 11 Q: Do you want to elaborate on any of 12 that? 13 A: In terms of -- well, I mean it's -- 14 it's self-evident, you know, the relationship of having a 15 family member taken down by a police bullet, and working 16 for an organization, you know, that was responsible. 17 And, of course, relationships with OPP 18 officers and their -- their position they've taken with 19 Ken Deane in terms of, you know, being some kind of hero 20 for what he did. 21 Q: Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And the last question I'd asked you,
1681 Sergeant George, whether or not you might have anything 2 by way of recommendations? 3 A: Not specifically. I know the OPP are 4 moving forward in some positive manners to -- in terms of 5 issues like this, moving forward with ways of dealing 6 with these kind of future events. 7 Q: All right, sir. Thank you for those 8 comments. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much, Mr. George. 11 MR. DONALD WORME: That is it, in-chief, 12 Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 14 I think we're starting with the OPP, Andrea Tuck-Jackson. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 16 Mr. Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 18 afternoon. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 21 Q: And good afternoon, Sergeant George. 22 A: Good afternoon. 23 Q: My name, sir, is Andrea Tuck-Jackson, 24 excuse me, and I'm going to ask you some questions on 25 behalf of the OPP.
1691 A: Yes. 2 Q: I wanted to clarify, first of all, 3 because your -- there's a reference in your notes that 4 indicates one (1) time, and you've told us another time 5 today, about a conversation that you had with Mark Wright 6 on September the 6th where he asked if you would be able 7 to make some inquiries with some of the people that you 8 know at -- knew at Kettle Point, regarding the existence 9 of a burial ground on the Park. 10 And I just wanted to make sure that the 11 record was clear. Your notes reflect an entry at 13:15, 12 I believe it is. Yes, 13:15, where you spoke with Mr. 13 Lundehn about his knowledge on that issue? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it obviously stands to reason, 16 then, that the request must have been made of you prior 17 to 13:15 on that day? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Because the only reason I raise it, 20 sir, is that there's also a reference later on that it 21 was around 20:00 hours that you thought that the request 22 had been made. 23 And I gather today, when you put 24 everything together, it makes more sense to you that the 25 request was made of you by Mark Wright early that
1701 morning? 2 A: Yes, that would be -- that would be 3 most correct, I think. 4 Q: Okay. And you'd indicated that when 5 you had spoken with -- with then-Acting Staff Sergeant 6 Wright, that you raised with him a concern about why was 7 this type of inquiry only being made now. 8 And as I understood your evidence, he 9 replied that the police had sort of done some inquiries 10 up to that point, but nonetheless, he was asking you to 11 make this additional inquiry. 12 A: Yes, that could very well be. 13 Q: Okay. Did he -- and maybe that -- 14 having regard to the passage of time that you -- you 15 can't answer the question. 16 Did he indicate to you during that 17 conversation that -- that Inspector Carson, for example, 18 had made inquiries of the Ministry of National -- Natural 19 Resources about the title to the Park? 20 A: No, I wasn't -- I wasn't privy to 21 that information. 22 Q: Okay. Or did he make you aware of 23 the conversation -- excuse me -- that Inspector Carson 24 had had with Chief Tom Bressette the morning of the 5th, 25 that related to the issue of title and actually to the
1711 issue of whether or not there was a burial ground in the 2 Park? 3 Did he mention any of that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: No. 7 Q: Fair enough. You were asked by My 8 Friend Mr. Worme about what your expectations were the 9 evening of the 6th at around 21:00 hours when you signed 10 off for the night. 11 And I gather, sir, you quite fairly 12 expressed some concerns about the build-up of police and 13 your desire to speak to your family to see if there was 14 some other way to try and diffuse the situation that was 15 existent at Ipperwash; I have that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. I trust, sir, that -- that 18 when you signed off that night and headed home, you had 19 absolutely no reasonable expectation that three (3) hours 20 later there would be a Crowd Management Unit marching 21 down East Parkway Drive toward the Park? 22 A: That would be correct. 23 Q: Thank you. Thank you very much for 24 your time, sir, those are my questions. 25 A: Thanks.
1721 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. 3 Mr. Roland...? 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant George. My 7 name is Ian Roland, I represent the Ontario Provincial 8 Police Association. 9 I have a couple of questions to ask you 10 about September the 5th around six o'clock in the 11 evening, 18:00 hours. 12 And the reason I ask you this is because 13 you've -- you've been asked about whether or not you 14 recall being spoken to by Mr. -- he was then -- I'm not 15 sure whether he was a sergeant or not, Seltzer. 16 A: Seltzer? 17 Q: And -- yeah, he was a -- I think a 18 Staff Sergeant or a Sergeant at the time, Brad Seltzer. 19 In any event, whether you were spoken to him about a -- 20 the possibility of you filling the role of negotiator or 21 a facilitator to try and commence some discussions with 22 the occupiers. 23 And you indicated you had no recollection 24 of Brad Seltzer speaking to you about that; is that 25 right?
1731 A: Yes. 2 Q: You don't recall him doing that. And 3 let -- let me take you, if I could, to Brad Seltzer's 4 notes, which I've, over the lunch break, pulled up. 5 I think in fairness to you -- I apologize 6 to My Friends for not giving notice, but having heard 7 that evidence this morning I thought I'd better look up 8 Brad Seltzer's notebook to see what he says, if anything, 9 about that time period. 10 It's Document Number 2003866, all right? 11 And I'm just going to read you his notebook entry at that 12 time to see if this helps refresh your memory, all right? 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: It's on page 87. It's September the 15 5th, '95 at 18:00 hours. Sorry, let me back up. At 16 17:00 hours he indicates that he called David Dowell. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you just 18 slow down a little bit, Mr. Roland -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we might 21 be able to get the document on the screen while you're 22 asking the question. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Right. That's fine. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:
1741 Q: Do you -- who -- do you know who 2 David Dowell was? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Who -- who was he at the time? What 5 was his role? 6 A: Dave Dowell was an officer working 7 out of Petrolia. 8 Q: And did -- did you work with him or 9 have any relationship with him? 10 A: During the...? 11 Q: At that time on September the 5th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's on the 15 screen now. 16 MR. IAN ROLAND: Right. Sorry, no, it's 17 the -- 18 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: What page are we 19 doing? 20 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, it's -- it's... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 25 Q: Okay. It's 18:00 hours. There we
1751 are. 2 "Talked to Vince George..." 3 And there's a telephone number, that 4 shouldn't be part of the public record, I assume. Was 5 that your telephone number? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: It's listed anyway so. 9 Q: "...Requesting his presence in the 10 morning. He has a fatal report due 11 tonight but will leave early if I can 12 see his relief NCO." 13 Was that Shawn Johnson? 14 A: Yeah, I think it was Shawn Johnson. 15 Q: All right. 16 "Vince will also chat with Glenn 17 tonight. Vince will determine from his 18 family as to whether anyone [I presume 19 of the occupiers] would talk to him and 20 if he wants to act for -- with us as a 21 negotiator. He has to work here after 22 it is done." 23 Now, does that help refresh your memory 24 that you had that conversation? 25 A: No, I mean, it -- it could have -- it
1761 could have happened. I'd have been preparing for work -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- the night shift that -- if it 4 occurred that time. 5 Q: Okay. And then on the next page, 6 that's at page 88, at nine o'clock it shows that you 7 arrived. 8 "Nine o'clock Vince George arrival." 9 And then a 9:20 meeting with Carson. Now 10 I understand the evidence will be from Brad Seltzer that 11 you weren't part of that 9:20 meeting, but that you did 12 arrive at the -- at Forest at about nine o'clock. 13 A: That -- that could be. 14 Q: Okay. And then on the next page, at 15 9:20 hours, it records: 16 "I spoke with Marg and Vince." 17 And I think that's where there's the plan 18 for you to attend at Grand Bend and to speak to your 19 contact. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that's consistent with your 22 recollection, I take it. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
1771 Mr. Roland. 2 Ms. McAleer...? 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 5 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant George. My 6 name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one of the lawyers who's 7 acting for the former Premier Mike Harris. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Mr. Worme asked you this morning if 10 you had ever been advised of burial grounds in the 11 Provincial Park, and you indicated, No, not until 1995. 12 I just wanted to confirm with you that 13 you, in fact, didn't hear that until after the occupation 14 of the Provincial Park in 1995. 15 Is that correct? 16 A: The occupation was -- when did -- 17 Q: September 4th of 1995. 18 A: You're suggesting I didn't hear that 19 'til after that? 20 Q: That's correct. 21 A: No. There was conversation with the 22 party that I was dealing with about the occupation of the 23 Park. 24 Q: Right. You -- you told us that there 25 had been some discussion with the informant that you had
1781 been dealing with on August the 3rd of 1995 about the -- 2 the potential of a takeover of the Provincial Park. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: But was there any reference to burial 5 grounds at that point in time? Or was the first 6 reference to a burial ground only after September 5th of 7 1995? 8 A: No. There was -- there was dialogue 9 about a burial site. 10 Q: And who did you have that dialogue 11 with? 12 A: That would have been with -- with the 13 informant, so to speak. 14 Q: And did he or she provide you with 15 any basis for the source of that information? 16 A: No. Not that I recall. 17 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you 18 that's no reference to that in your notes that are 19 produced at P-1292 which is Tab 2, unless I've missed it, 20 Mr. George. 21 Perhaps you could take a minute to just 22 review your notes. Tab 2. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1791 A: I -- I don't think this book, in 2 reality, had anything to do with the burial site 3 conversations, per se. This book had to do with 4 receiving information about what's going on, guns, et 5 cetera, et cetera. 6 But in terms of specific to the burial 7 grounds, I know we spoke of it during our conversations. 8 Q: And is it your memory today, Sergeant 9 George, that when you discussed it, you discussed it at 10 the same point in time on August 3rd, 1995 where you've 11 made a reference to a potential takeover of the 12 Provincial Park? 13 A: I -- I think we -- I think we would 14 have known. I'm not saying -- I don't have any 15 recollection of that but we would have known why they 16 were going on. We knew in advance that they were going 17 on -- into the Park. 18 Q: Right. You -- you had an 19 understanding in advance that the occupiers intended to 20 take over the Provincial Park. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: But are you certain that prior to 23 September 4th of 1995, there had been a reference to a 24 burial ground in the Provincial Park? 25 A: Yeah, I'm pretty certain of that.
1801 Q: Are you pretty certain, or are you 2 now just, ten (10) years later, looking back and thinking 3 that you -- 4 A: No. No, I'm certain of that. I had 5 conversation with the subject, as we dialogued on -- on a 6 number of occasions. 7 Q: And did -- was it your practice to 8 usually take notes of the matters that you discussed with 9 the informant? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: In fact, that's what's produced at 12 Tab 2, isn't it? These notes all pertain to your 13 discussion with the informant? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And again, in these notes, there's no 16 reference to a burial ground; isn't that correct, 17 Sergeant? 18 A: Not a burial ground, no. 19 Q: Okay. And when you discussed with 20 your contact in August of 1995, the -- the potential for 21 a takeover of the Provincial Park, do you recall him or 22 her telling you of any other potential reasons as to why 23 the Provincial Park might be taken? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And had you, prior to August
1811 of 1995, ever heard about a claim to the Provincial Park, 2 by any of the Stoney Point and Kettle Point people? 3 A: Prior to '95? 4 Q: Right. 5 A: No. 6 Q: Thank you. Those are all of my 7 questions. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 12 Goodman...? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Good afternoon, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 19 afternoon. 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ADAM GOODMAN: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant George. 23 A: Good afternoon. 24 Q: My name is Adam Goodman, and I'm 25 Counsel to Deb Hutton, who was an aide to former Premier
1821 Harris -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in 1995. I have a very narrow 4 area that I would appreciate your help in clarifying. 5 You tested -- testified, in-chief, that you were trained 6 with respect to the doctrine of colour of right in 7 relation to West Ipperwash beach; is -- do you remember 8 that? 9 A: Yeah. No, I didn't say we were 10 trained. We -- we had -- we were informed that colour of 11 right would be an issue in terms of investigation -- 12 Q: Oh -- 13 A: -- investigating land claims. 14 Q: Right. And so it was your 15 understanding that colour of right could pose a problem 16 in sustaining certain criminal charges that flowed from 17 the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park; that was 18 your understanding? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Well I take it that it was not 21 your understanding that colour of right could be used as 22 a defence for every single criminal charge that flowed 23 from the occupation; was -- wasn't that your 24 understanding? 25 A: Yes.
1831 Q: Okay. Thank you very much. Those 2 are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 Ms. Esmonde...? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Sorry. Good 9 afternoon. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 12 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde. I'm going 13 to be asking you some questions on behalf of some of the 14 Stoney Point people under the name Aazhoodena and George 15 Family Group. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now -- pardon me. You've told us 18 about information that you received from a confidential 19 informant, and am I correct that your role was to gather 20 information from this informant? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you were not an intelligence 23 officer? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And it was not your role to analyse
1841 the information that was given to you? 2 A: No, I've never been trained as an 3 intelligence officer. 4 Well, at that time -- 5 Q: At -- 6 A: Following that, I had some training 7 in intelligence training. 8 Q: Following that, but not in 1995? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And it was not your role to try to 11 confirm the information that was given to you? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And you've told us that your role 14 would be to report back to Constable George Speck about 15 the information that you had learned? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And how would you do that; would that 18 be verbally? 19 A: Probably telephone. 20 Q: Okay. So after you've had -- you had 21 contact with the informant, you would telephone Constable 22 Speck and advise him verbally of what you had been told? 23 A: Yes. I -- I had to rely on that 24 person to call me, as I had no way of contact, so the 25 arrangements were usually made by the individual calling
1851 me. 2 And then we would take drives in a 3 vehicle, so forth, and discuss what's going on. And that 4 information would eventually be passed over to George 5 Speck. 6 Q: And I take it you wouldn't provide 7 Constable Speck with copies of your notes from those 8 meetings -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- or discussions? So all he had 11 were your verbal reports? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And he was not an intelligence 14 officer either? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And you've told us you don't know 17 what he did with that information? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: In fact you don't know that he did 20 anything at all with the information? 21 A: That'd be correct. 22 Q: This informant that you met with was 23 he paid for providing information to you? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And I take it no intelligence officer
1861 ever came to you and asked for further information or did 2 any follow-up with you to respect to the information you 3 provided from the informant? 4 A: Yeah, not that I'm aware of. 5 Q: Would your practice have been the 6 same then on September 6th? 7 You've told us you had contact with your 8 informant on that day. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Your practice would have been the 11 same; you would have reported verbally to Constable 12 Speck? 13 A: Probably. 14 Q: Okay. Do you know if you even had a 15 chance to do that on September 6th? 16 A: Well, I -- I don't know whether I 17 would have had that chance or not. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: So I take it you can't assist us with 22 respect to what if any role the information you obtained 23 on that date would have had in any of the decisions that 24 were made subsequently? 25 A: Yeah, I couldn't say that for sure.
1871 Q: You told us this morning about 2 reports of explosives in the CFB Ipperwash area that you 3 found to be fireworks? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the fireworks were by cottagers 6 east of Cobblestone Lodge? 7 A: East of Cobblestone Lodge -- 8 Q: Is that correct? Is that in one of 9 the -- 10 A: -- yes, on East Parkway Drive, yes. 11 Q: Okay. Mr. Worme has assisted me by 12 putting up a map. I'm not sure if this will -- will help 13 at all, but is Cobblestone Lodge even on this map 14 anywhere? 15 A: Pardon me? 16 Q: Is Cobblestone Lodge on this map? 17 This is P-40, the map of the former CFB Ipperwash. 18 A: No, it would be -- it would be 19 further to the... 20 Q: To the west? 21 A: To the west, yes. 22 Q: Okay. Down East Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And how far down East Parkway Drive? 25 A: Oh, a kilometre max.
1881 Q: Okay. So the report that you had was 2 that there were explosives in the area of CFB Ipperwash? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you found that it was at least a 5 kilo -- kilometre away from CFB Ipperwash when you 6 investigated? 7 A: Well, the report said there were 8 explosions and the -- 9 Q: Explosions? 10 A: Yes. The sounds of explosions so 11 subsequent queries found out that it was cottagers just 12 in the area of Cobblestone Lodge. 13 Q: Now, I have some questions about your 14 attempt at service with Les Kobayashi on the evening of 15 September 4th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I take it your instructions were 18 to identify a spokesperson and serve them with the Notice 19 of Trespass? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And -- and that was the extent of 22 what you were to do that night? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You told us you weren't trained as a 25 negotiator and you didn't see your role that evening as
1891 commencing negotiations? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Now, Les Kobayashi has been a witness 4 at these proceedings and he also described this -- this 5 occurrence. 6 He told us about -- I'm looking at his 7 evidence from October 24th, 2005, pages 229 through 235. 8 In his description of the conversations that he had with 9 Bert Manning he told us that -- I want to get the words 10 exactly right... 11 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: I wonder if the 12 Witness might be seeing the trans -- might see the 13 transcript. Unfortunately, I wasn't on the distribution 14 list. I understand that notice was given that this 15 document might be put to the Witness -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: -- but I didn't have 18 an opportunity to provide it to the Witness. 19 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 21 a hardcopy of it or can we put it on the screen? Which? 22 MR. DONALD WORME: We'll put it up on the 23 screen. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll put it 25 on the screen. Just...
1901 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: One (1) other just 4 matter of clarification. In one (1) of the questions to 5 Sergeant George about the informant the word, "he" was 6 used in the question. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Oh. 8 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: Sergeant George 9 hasn't acknowledged as to whether -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hasn't 11 identified the gender. 12 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Yeah. And I don't 13 have any knowledge as to -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- the gender either 16 of the -- that was... 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I do have a printout 21 here I can put -- give to the Witness. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that 23 would be helpful. 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I just -- it's my 25 printout so I won't --
1911 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: I have a printout. 2 I was given one over the lunch break. I might be able to 3 give it to Sergeant George. He can be at least looking 4 at while we're trying to sort out the -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 6 trying to pull it up on screen? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So perhaps 9 you could be reading the hardcopy. 10 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can you just 12 pass it up here. You don't have to run all the way 13 around. Just the configuration of this room isn't very 14 conducive to that. 15 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: I was noticing that. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 18 Q: Okay. You'll see in your -- I 19 believe it's the copy you have is the same one that I 20 have and in the right hand margin occasionally there's a 21 page number? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm looking at a page that 24 falls underneath the number 234. 25 A: Yes.
1921 Q: Okay. Now Ms. Vella had been 2 examining Mr. Kobayashi and she provided him with the 3 document that refreshed his memory and asked him some 4 questions about the conversation with Bert Manning. 5 And do you see there's a question "What 6 did he say?" It's at line 22. 7 "A: He said that Elders had not been 8 appointed yet and that that's when he 9 came back. He said to us that there 10 had not been anybody appointed as an -- 11 as an Elder to accept the notice." 12 A: Okay. I'm lost here. 13 Q: Okay. Do you have the page where 14 there's a 234 -- 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: -- in the right hand margin? 17 A: I got 235. 18 Q: Okay. Then look above that and 19 you'll see above the 235 there should be at line 21? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And then, it's line 22: 22 "Q: What did he say?" 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Do you see where I am? 25 A: Yes.
1931 Q: Okay. And then the answer: 2 "He said [that the answer about the 3 Elders] had not been appointed yet." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Now does that refresh your 6 memory? Do you remember now that when Bert Manning came 7 back the second time he advised you that an Elder had not 8 been appointed yet to be a spokesperson? 9 A: Yeah it may -- it may have been 10 Elders. My notes just indicate there was no one. 11 Q: Okay. You understood that they 12 hadn't appointed anybody yet but were in the process of 13 doing so? 14 A: That -- that could be. 15 Q: Okay. And do you recall that he -- 16 he advised you to come back the next day? 17 A: That's possible, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you told us about 19 returning then to the Command Post and you had some 20 discussions there about what to do next. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the nature of that discussion was 23 whether or not to move in and take the Park back that 24 night. 25 A: Yes.
1941 Q: And that was in part because you had 2 advised that you believed there was no one in the Park at 3 that time? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you recall Detective Sergeant 6 Wright was supportive of the suggestion to move into the 7 Park that night? 8 A: I -- I think we -- we talked about 9 that at the roadside that I thought that there wasn't 10 anyone in the Park and that it would have been a good 11 opportunity. So obviously we're interested in -- on 12 having that discussion with Inspector Carson so we went 13 and did that. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: So we had that discussion back at the 16 -- the office there about whether or not we should take 17 it back now. And Inspector Carson decided that this 18 wasn't -- wasn't a good time. 19 Q: Right. Now Detective Sergeant Wright 20 was not present at the conversation on the side of the 21 road. Is that -- that was my understanding. 22 A: I -- I can't say for sure whether -- 23 Q: You can't say for sure. He was 24 present at the Command Post? 25 A: I -- I believe so. I couldn't say
1951 for sure. I know we had discussions with Inspector 2 Carson. 3 Q: Okay. But from what you recall of 4 the conversation, it was whether or not to take the Park 5 back? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And there wasn't discussion of -- the 8 term 'cohabitation' was not used? 9 A: No, not that I recall. 10 Q: And there was no discussion about 11 waiting for an injunction? 12 A: I don't recall that. 13 Q: Inspector Carson -- you said 14 Inspector Carson decided not to do it that night. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you've told us that you don't 17 recall any conversations with Brad Seltzer about whether 18 you should be a negotiator or not, or whether you should 19 be an introduction man. 20 I take it, though, you're quite sure that 21 at no point between -- on September 5th or 6th, did you 22 play the role of approaching the people in the Park to 23 try and introduce a negotiator? 24 A: No. Whatever discussions transpired 25 or whatever discussions I had, none of that transpired.
1961 Q: Okay. And you're quite certain that 2 you were not asked about this before September 4th, the 3 day that people moved into the Park? 4 A: September 4th. I can't be certain of 5 whether or not I was asked. You know, the only thing 6 that I recall being asked to do was -- vivid in my mind, 7 was being asked to go behind the barricades and serve the 8 notice with Les Kobayashi. 9 Q: Okay. You were taken to an entry in 10 the scribe notes where it's attributed to Sergeant 11 Seltzer, that he's reporting on a conversation with you 12 in which you had suggested that it was time for an 13 arrest, to show that you have a plan. 14 You recall that entry in the scribe notes? 15 A: Yes, I remember that. 16 Q: And am I correct from your responses 17 during direct exam -- your direct examination that you 18 didn't recall making such comments but that you might 19 have? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Do you recall, at the time, having 22 that cross your mind? 23 Do you remember thinking about that as a 24 possibility during the period September 4, 5, 6? 25 A: No, I don't remember it. I mean,
1971 it's quite possible that I did say something like that. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And it's like I said before, we might 4 have been throwing ideas around about how to best resolve 5 this thing and then someone entered the room with the 6 scribe writing and I repeat something that was said 7 outside the room. 8 You know, arresting people in 9 circumstances like that, goes along with just police 10 work, so it may have been in a conversation that we had. 11 Q: Okay. And arrest who? Can you help 12 me at all with what would have been -- arrest who and for 13 what? 14 A: Could have been people arresting for 15 trespassing, damage to the property; those types of 16 things. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: You've assessed -- assisted us with 21 what you might have meant by, if you said it, what people 22 might be arrested for, but arrest who? 23 A: I couldn't say. 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: Like occupiers of the -- the Park, I
1981 mean -- 2 Q: Anybody in the Park? 3 A: Well, people had -- well, 4 trespassing. I mean, from my view at that point, we had 5 trespassers within a Provincial Park. 6 Q: Okay. And -- 7 A: And -- 8 Q: Sorry, I didn't mean to -- 9 A: Yes. And had there been damage going 10 on, so forth, then arresting for that type of thing. 11 Q: Now, you told us that you had some 12 concerns that developed around the issue of colour of 13 right, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that would have made it difficult 16 to arrest for trespass, at least, if there was a defence 17 of colour of right. 18 A: Yeah, you could have presumed that, 19 yes. If one had all the documentation and was looking at 20 all the documentation, was privy to all the 21 conversations, and the bigger plan, which I wasn't. 22 Q: Now, at the time you perceived that 23 there were several people in the Park who had played the 24 role of spokesperson in the past, or assumed the role of 25 leader.
1991 A: In -- in terms -- 2 Q: But had you, for example, Glenn 3 George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You had known him to act as a 6 spokesperson for the people in the Camp? 7 A: I don't know if I knew him as such. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I know he was active in... 10 Q: You knew he was active? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You knew he had taken a leadership- 13 like role on occasion? 14 A: Yeah. I'm not so sure that was the 15 case. 16 Q: You're not sure of that, okay. What 17 about Roderick George? 18 A: Roderick, I'm not sure of that, 19 either. 20 Q: Okay. Now, you were aware at the 21 time of September 4, 5, 6, that one reason people in the 22 Park might be reluctant to be a spokesperson would be a 23 fear of being arrested? 24 A: Yes, that's possible. 25 Q: And had that occurred to you at the
2001 time? 2 A: No. 3 Q: It didn't occur to you at the time? 4 A: No. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: You were asked some questions earlier 9 about when you were aware about allegations that there 10 was a burial ground in the Park. 11 Can you recall when -- when was the first 12 time that you heard that there may be a burial ground in 13 the Park? 14 A: I think the first time would have 15 been after August 3rd when I engaged the informant. 16 Q: And would you have talked about that 17 information with Inspector Carson or Detective Sergeant 18 Wright? 19 A: I -- I think we all knew that. 20 Q: Your impression was that every -- 21 that those two (2) individuals that I have named were 22 aware that there was a claim there was a burial ground in 23 the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And your impression was they were
2011 aware of that in August? 2 A: I think we were all aware of that, 3 yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you've told us about some 9 inquiries that you made on September 6th. I wanted to 10 clarify one (1) aspect of your evidence with respect to 11 the conversation you had with your parents. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, you -- there's a typed statement 14 and then there's your handwritten notes and there's a 15 slight difference in the -- in the wording that's used in 16 -- in your description of this conversation. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: In your typed statement which is at 19 Tab 10, which is marked as P-1291 Inquiry Document 20 2004077, which is I believe the one (1), two (2), the 21 fourth page in is your description of your conversation 22 with your parents. 23 And the very last two (2) sentences there 24 you say: 25 "We talked about my grandfather ever
2021 talking about [I assume it should be] 2 this. He never talked about these 3 things." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: I'm trying to locate it here. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Okay. What was the question again? 10 Q: I -- I just took you to what the 11 taped statement says about your conversation with your 12 parents, the last two (2) sentences on that page: 13 "We talked about my grandfather ever 14 talking about this. He never talked 15 about these things." 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then in your handwritten notes 18 for that same incident, the same conversation, which is 19 page 35 of your notebook? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: I believe it says: 22 "Talked about my dad's father. My 23 grandfather took me there, never told 24 me. He replied that my grandfather 25 wasn't the type to talk about these
2031 things." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I read that correctly? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And these -- the typewritten and the 6 handwritten are not inconsistent but I think you would 7 agree with me your -- your recollection is that your 8 father told you that your grandfather never -- wasn't the 9 type to talk about these things? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That -- that being the burial 12 grounds? 13 A: Yes, I presume that's what it was 14 about. 15 Q: You were asked this morning about the 16 still video photo? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I under -- I understand from your 19 notes that your RCMP partner was with you on that day? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And that she could not identify the 22 object in the person's hand either? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Thank you very much, Sergeant, those 25 are all my questions.
2041 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Ms. Esmonde. 3 I think, Mr. Scullion...? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Good afternoon, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 afternoon. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 13 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. George. 14 A: Good afternoon. 15 Q: My name is Kevin Scullion and I'm one 16 of counsel for the Residents of Aazhoodena who you -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- obviously know as the Stoney 19 Pointers -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- many of whom are you extended 22 family, correct? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: All right. And many of the occupiers 25 at the time this occurred August/September of 1995 were
2051 members of your extended family, correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Do I take it from your 4 evidence today that you did not play, in your mind, a 5 major role in the planning or the execution of Project 6 Maple? 7 A: That'd be correct. 8 Q: All right. And part of what you've 9 referred to as the shattered relationships, the 10 difficulties you've experienced since, in part relates to 11 a lot of accusations or feelings that somehow you played 12 a major role in what occurred; is that fair? 13 A: I don't understand the question. 14 Q: You've talked about the family 15 splitting apart to an extent as a result of what 16 occurred. 17 A: Some of the families, yes. 18 Q: Some of the families. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Right. There's been a division of 21 the families as a result of what occurred that night? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And some of the comments have related 24 to the fact that you were an OPP officer while at the 25 same time being a Stoney Pointer?
2061 A: Yes. 2 Q: Right. And the difficulty presumably 3 that you felt working for the OPP but at the same time 4 having extended family members occupying both the Camp 5 and the Park; is that fair? 6 A: Difficulty. I don't know if I would 7 describe it as a difficulty. 8 Q: Did you experience any difficulties 9 in acting as an OPP officer and dealing with members of 10 your extended family who were occupying the Park -- 11 A: I -- I -- 12 Q: -- in September of 1995? 13 A: I don't think so. I think we still 14 had a relationship to some degree and then it tilted 15 September of '95. 16 Q: Right. I -- I don't disagree that 17 you had a relationship and it sounds to me from your 18 evidence today, that you felt that you still had the 19 ability to speak with those that were in occupation of 20 the Camp and the Park; is that -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- fair? All right. In fact your 23 parents were part of the protest that occurred back in 24 1993 when people moved onto the Camp lands, correct? 25 A: Yes.
2071 Q: All right. They didn't stay over the 2 winter. They didn't set up their own permanent location 3 but they certainly visited and they were sympathetic to 4 what the people were doing that were occupying the Camp; 5 is that fair? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And I thought I heard you 8 say that the protests from 1990 onwards was in part to 9 create awareness of the situation; is that correct? 10 A: With my father you mean? 11 Q: With your father, yes. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you were aware that that was also 14 why many of the people were occupying the Camp, was to 15 raise awareness of an issued that had been festering for 16 sixty (60) years. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And you were sympathetic 19 to that issue if not, the occupation itself? 20 A: Sympathetic, I would say yes. 21 Q: Right. The return of the Stoney 22 Point lands? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. You agreed that that was 25 an issue that had to be resolved whether or not you
2081 agreed with how some thought it should be resolved, was a 2 different issue; is that fair? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. You were aware that Chief 5 and Council of the Kettle and Stony Point were 6 negotiating at times anyways, with the Federal Government 7 for the return of those lands. 8 A: Yes, ongoing from I believe 1970 on. 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: In the '70's, yes. 11 Q: Sure. There a couple of promises 12 that occurred in the '70's, '80's and '90's that it would 13 be returned. You were aware of those promises? 14 A: I believe so as a community member I 15 would have been aware of, generally. 16 Q: Sure. Not only as a community member 17 but as a Stoney Pointer -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- it was important to you that those 20 lands be returned? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. You're aware of the 23 division between the approach by Chief and Council and 24 the approach that was being undertaken by the occupiers? 25 You were aware of that division?
2091 A: I may have been. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I think there was a rift there. 4 Q: All right. As an OPP officer, were 5 you aware that part of the focus as you got into July and 6 August of 1995, when the occupiers took over the barrack 7 area that the conflict that had occurred up to that point 8 in time between the Military and the occupiers may turn 9 to be in between the Kettle Point Band and the occupiers. 10 A: I couldn't say for sure. 11 Q: You can't remember whether or not 12 that was a shift in focus at that time? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Obviously some of the 15 concern for some of your extended relatives, or comments 16 that are attributed to you in the course of September 4, 17 5, and 6, at least in the scribe notes, that you were 18 advocating that the OPP arrest some members of your 19 extended family in order to make a point. 20 A: Did I say extended family? I don't 21 think I did, I said we were talking about arrests in 22 general. If somebody walks into the room and -- and 23 doing scribe taking and mentions that I said this, and I 24 said that, that's possible. And -- and the every day 25 work of police officers is to, you know, toss those ideas
2101 around about arresting people. 2 I didn't say whether or not it was 3 extended family. There were other people there as well. 4 Q: Right. You'd agree it's a drastic 5 step to take at that point in time, in what -- which had 6 been a peaceful protest, correct? 7 A: I don't know if it's drastic. 8 Q: You didn't think -- 9 A: Is arresting people drastic? I don't 10 necessarily -- 11 Q: I'm just asking for your view -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- at the time of how to deal with 14 this situation. You've talked in your evidence about 15 possible resolutions, and I suggest to you that simply 16 arresting people would have been a drastic step for what 17 had occurred up to that point in time. 18 A: Yeah, it could -- yeah, it could be-- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- a drastic step. 21 Q: Right. And you were aware that the 22 occupation of the camp, people said, No arms, correct? 23 We're not going to take up arms. It's going to be a 24 peaceful protest. 25 A: Yeah, I don't know whether that was
2111 said or not. 2 Q: You weren't aware of that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You weren't aware of that from 5 discussions with your parents? 6 A: No, I don't recall those discussions. 7 It started out as peaceful. 8 Q: Well, let's move on. You've had 9 discussions with what you referred to as a confidential 10 informant -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- about what was going on, both in 13 the camp and in the Park, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: But from what I'm hearing from you, 16 you didn't necessarily need the information from the 17 informant, you could have simply asked people that were 18 in the camp and in the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. So the information coming 21 from this confidential informant could supplement 22 whatever other information you could get from other 23 sources, correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Did you ever talk with
2121 anybody in the camp, or in the Park, in regards to any of 2 the information you were receiving from the informant? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. Why not? 5 A: No opportunity. 6 Q: Well why do you say that? Couldn't 7 you have just gone to the camp or to the Park to talk 8 with them? 9 A: That's a possibility. It's probably 10 something I didn't really think about, walking in and 11 doing that. That's a possibility. 12 Q: Right. You could have gone up to the 13 gate and said, Is this true, correct? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: There was nothing preventing you from 16 doing that. And from what I've heard from you, you would 17 have been comfortable doing that act. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. It just didn't come to 20 mind and that's why you didn't do it? 21 A: That's probably true. 22 Q: All right. Were you aware or were 23 you told that the information that you were gathering 24 from this informant, or otherwise, and relating back to 25 Sergeant Speck at the time, was used for intelligence
2131 purposes in the preparation of Project Maple? 2 A: No, I was never told that it was 3 being used for that. 4 Q: Okay. They never told you why they 5 wanted to know information from this informant? 6 A: No. I was never involved in the -- 7 the planning of any operational plan. I was still 8 working my normal shift duties and being pulled in and 9 out to do various tasks. 10 Q: I appreciate that. But you were 11 never told that the information that you were getting 12 from this confidential informant would be used by those 13 higher up for the preparation or execution of Op -- or 14 Project Maple? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: All right. So without knowing what 17 it's being used for, you weren't able to cull it in any 18 way for accuracy? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Right. You just related it back -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- as and how you received it? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Now, Ms. Esmonde asked 25 you if you were aware of the concern with the occupiers
2141 about identifying a leader among their group. 2 Do you remember that line of questioning? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now, at the time, in September, were 5 you aware that that was a concern for that group? 6 A: No, I wasn't aware of that. 7 Q: All right. Nobody ever told you, as 8 a result of the occupation of the camp, that they didn't 9 want to identify leaders for fear they might be arrested? 10 A: Yeah, not that I'm aware of, I -- 11 Q: Not -- 12 A: -- I don't recall that. 13 Q: Looking back on it, is that 14 consistent with information you did have at the time? 15 A: Yeah, I'd say that was correct. 16 Q: Okay. When you went with Mr. 17 Kobayashi for the purpose of serving notice on the night 18 of September 4th, did it seem a little odd to you that 19 you were trying to serve notice at midnight? 20 A: Yeah. The whole notice thing seemed 21 odd to me, yes. 22 Q: It seemed odd in the timing. And did 23 it seem odd that you needed eight (8) ERT members 24 flanking you as you went to talk with the people -- 25 A: No.
2151 Q: -- that were occupying the Park? 2 A: No, it wasn't odd that we had eight 3 (8) ERT team members with us in -- in view of the fact of 4 the information we were getting. 5 Q: Well you testified that you had no 6 fear for your own safety. 7 A: No. 8 Q: Right. Because they were relatives, 9 if I recall your evidence correctly? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: Right. There's no fear that anything 12 was going to happen other than they were going to say, 13 Get off the land, correct? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Right. You're an OPP officer, get 16 off the land. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Right. I heard your evidence 19 regarding the colour of right, and part of it struck me, 20 that you said you were surprised or you were concerned 21 that Sergeant Wright was asking you to look into this 22 issue at this late stage. 23 Do you remember saying that? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Was it your view and is it your view
2161 today that thirty-six (36) hours after the occupiers 2 moved into the Park, that it was late, and too late in 3 the process to look into whether or not they had colour 4 of right to be there? 5 A: Well I'm not saying they didn't look 6 into it, all I'm saying is that at that late hour I was 7 asked to -- to make queries in regards to this burial 8 site. 9 Q: But why did you think it was a late 10 hour, in your view? 11 A: Well I figured that it was something 12 we would be looking at from the get go, you know, once -- 13 once we discovered that -- I received information that 14 there was going to be an occupation of the -- the 15 Provincial Park, then that would be something that we 16 would be looking at right away. 17 Q: You would think it would be a very 18 important issue -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- because if they -- if there was 21 grounds, whether reasonable or otherwise, for the people 22 to think they're entitled to be there, then that's a 23 concern for the police, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Right. It's an issue in trying to
2171 execute warrants or to arrest people, because it would 2 have been a valid defence? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Right. You were surprised that you 5 were being asked at that point to look into an issue that 6 you thought should have been finalized months earlier; is 7 that fair? 8 A: At least looked into, yes. 9 Q: Right. You mentioned to Ms. McAleer, 10 when she asked you whether or not this is the first you 11 heard of the burial ground, you indicated August. 12 You heard that from this confidential 13 informant? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Are you saying that 16 before you heard it from the confidential informant that 17 it's something that had never come up in conversations, 18 either in your family or with extended family? 19 A: Colour of right, or burial site? 20 Q: Burial grounds, burial sites? 21 A: I don't recall having burial site 22 conversations with my family. 23 Q: Okay. In your investigations of West 24 Ipperwash you became aware of questions about the 25 surrender of certain lands, correct?
2181 A: Yes. 2 Q: In that investigation and the 3 discussions that surrounded West Ipperwash, did you 4 become aware that there were also similar questions about 5 the surrender of lands by Stoney Point? 6 A: I may have. 7 Q: Yeah. It's a similar surrender that 8 occurred a year later, correct? 9 A: Yes. I -- I can't say for sure 10 whether I -- 11 Q: But you -- 12 A: -- whether I was privy to that kind 13 of information. 14 Q: But you were aware that there was a 15 surrender of land by the Band called -- 16 A: For West -- 17 Q: -- West Ipperwash. 18 A: -- West Ipperwash, I was aware of 19 that. 20 Q: And -- and were you aware that there 21 was also a surrender by the Band of lands by Stoney 22 Point? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You weren't aware of that, in any of 25 your research leading up to September of '95?
2191 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: At some point you spoke with your 7 family about ways that this issue could possibly be 8 resolved, this occupation. And you mentioned something 9 about a feast. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Right. Who raised that issue? 12 A: I -- I think I did. 13 Q: Okay. As a possible way of dealing 14 with issues that were out there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. A way of discussing the 17 issues, and whether or not it led to resolution, it was a 18 way to get the people together to talk about it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Right. And that would have been a 21 traditional way of dealing with it? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Right. A way of discussing the 24 issues, and whether or not it led to resolution it was a 25 way to get the people together to talk about it.
2201 A: Yes. 2 Q: Right. And that would have been a 3 traditional way of dealing with it? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Right. In that discussion, and I 6 understand that it was part of the same discussion, the 7 issue of burial grounds also came up, correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You were advised, I think by your 10 father, that Cliff George had mentioned that burial 11 grounds were in the area of the maintenance area, 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. I think he mentioned something 14 about a backhoe digging up bones and then this 15 information come to him by Cliff George. 16 Q: Right. Well just let me help you a 17 little bit. You have a typewritten note, I'm assisted, 18 it's Tab 10. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: At the bottom of... 21 A: The maintenance area? 22 Q: It looks like page 4 certainly of my 23 copy. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 25 font number at the top? Maybe that way we can find it.
2211 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 542, I'm told. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 5 -- 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: The last line being 4 "grandfather." 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 8 Q: Do you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And if you go up five (5) lines -- 11 six (6) lines. This is as a result of the inquiries by 12 Mark Wright about burial grounds, right? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And you asked your parents, it says: 15 "I called my parents and discussed 16 ideas in terms of resolve this issue. 17 We talked about whether or not an 18 organized community feast would help. 19 She heard from someone that apparently 20 there was a report of one. I then 21 spoke to my father who advised me that 22 Cliff George told him that a backhoe 23 driver dug up bones on the Matheson 24 Drive near the maintenance shed area. 25 The bones were just buried again."
2221 Do you see that? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. That's information that 4 your father provided to you that day. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. As -- as in response to 7 the question that you put to him about burial grounds in 8 the Park. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Did you ever follow that up with 11 Clifford George? 12 A: No, I didn't. 13 Q: Why not? 14 A: I don't know why not. 15 Q: All right. You'd agree with me that 16 there was an issue that related to the colour of right 17 defence that may have been available to those occupying 18 the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And you were aware of the 21 importance of that particular issue at that time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: But you can't help us as to why you 24 didn't follow it up further with Clifford George? 25 A: Yeah, that's correct. I couldn't say
2231 why I didn't follow it up. 2 Q: Did you relate -- 3 A: I think -- I think I was at home when 4 I made that call. I had gone to bed. And then I think 5 it was that following night that -- or that evening 6 Dudley was shot. 7 Q: Dudley George was shot at 11:00 p.m. 8 at night. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. You'd agree with me that 11 after you spoke with your parents there was ample time, 12 both to speak with Clifford George, and to refer this 13 information back to Sergeant Wright. 14 A: There could have been, yeah, drove 15 back to Kettle Point and do that. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So two (2) parts to my question were: 19 Did you follow it up with Clifford George? And I 20 understand your answer is no. 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you relate this information, the 23 specific information from your parents, back to Sergeant 24 Wright? 25 A: I don't think so.
2241 Q: Again, why not? 2 A: I don't know why not. 3 Q: Those are all my questions, Mr. 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Scullion. 7 Ms. Johnson...? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Good afternoon. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 afternoon. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 16 Q: I'm Colleen Johnson and I represent 17 the Kettle Point and Stony Point First Nation, as well as 18 appearing as agent for the Chiefs of Ontario today. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: I just have a few questions for you. 21 You've testified that you were in a helicopter ride and 22 that the helicopter flew, to your liking, fairy low. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You were concerned about that? 25 A: Yes.
2251 Q: Would you agree that it was somewhat 2 of an antagonizing kind of behaviour on the part of the 3 helicopter pilot? 4 A: Yes, I felt it was. 5 Q: And he was sent home following that, 6 to the best of your recollection; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you know if there was any further 9 steps taken with regards to that activity? Was he 10 reprimanded in any way or anything like that, other than 11 being sent home? 12 A: No. I -- I wouldn't know that. 13 Q: You also testified to observing, 14 personally, some souvenir material at the Forest 15 Detachment; is that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you spoke out about that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: What -- what happened in the 20 aftermath of your speaking out about it; was the material 21 removed immediately? 22 A: Yes. It was being sold inside the 23 Forest Detachment and like I said, I pulled George Speck 24 aside and said they need to get this stuff out of here, 25 and they did. It was gone.
2261 I came back a short time later and it was 2 gone and I know subsequent to that there was an 3 investigation done on that. 4 Q: You also alluded to the OPP 5 organization treating Ken Deane as a hero. 6 A: I'm not -- I guess I should restate 7 that and say the OPPA, in my view, treated him as a hero. 8 Q: Would you like to expand on that? 9 A: Well, the reason I say that is 10 because I think it was October -- October of 2003 I was 11 at an association meeting. I rarely go to association 12 meetings. That particular night, it was announced that 13 he was given a -- a lifetime membership to the OPPA and 14 given a golden -- a gold watch. 15 And I didn't think that was appropriate 16 for -- for someone that had been convicted of a criminal 17 offence. 18 Q: My Friend, Mr. Scullion, asked you 19 about, was it difficult to be in the middle of the OPP 20 and family members prior to the events of September 6th. 21 Was it difficult to be a member of the OPP 22 following the death of Dudley George? 23 A: Yes, I think so. 24 Q: Can you tell me why? 25 A: Well, I think it's primarily because
2271 of the position many of the OPPA members took on Ken 2 Deane that he -- he was an innocent party. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Certainly a very different position, 7 I would suspect, than you're used seeing people convicted 8 of a crimes being viewed by the OPP? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Or... 11 A: I know what you're getting at. 12 Q: Thank you. In the aftermath of the 13 events of September 6th, did you ever overhear any of the 14 participants speak with bravado, regarding their 15 involvement, either with Dudley George or with any of the 16 other persons that were harmed on that evening? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: Bravado? 21 Q: Bragging. 22 A: I wouldn't say bragging. I've heard 23 people only in relation to the beating of Bernard George. 24 Q: And what did you hear? 25 A: Well, I heard individuals say that he
2281 was the first person to hit him. 2 Q: And how was that said? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I don't remember exactly how it was 7 said, but I remember that it -- it was sort of relayed to 8 me that -- that he was the individual that first hit 9 Bernard. I don't know why he was telling me that. 10 Q: Was it said apologetically or was it 11 said... 12 A: I don't recall. I just remember 13 vividly it was -- was mentioned to me. 14 Q: Okay. Directly to you? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And can you identify who that person 20 was that said that to you? 21 A: Well, I can. Do we need to? 22 Q: I'm asking you to. 23 A: Yes, it was Staff Sergeant Wade 24 Lacroix. 25 Q: You have a wealth of experience as an
2291 OPP officer as well as a First Nations person, would you 2 agree? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you have any other things that you 5 think that the Commissioner ought to know here for this 6 proceeding? 7 A: Not that I can -- unless you got 8 something specific that may jog my memory. 9 Q: Thank you, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. I think we'll take an afternoon break now. 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 13 for fifteen (15) minutes. 14 15 --- Upon recessing at 2:15 p.m. 16 --- Upon resuming at 2:32 p.m. 17 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 19 resumed. Please be seated. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 21 afternoon, Mr. Roy. 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: Good afternoon, sir. 23 I'm going to be much briefer than what I'd estimated for 24 the assistance of My Friends. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
2301 Thank you. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 4 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 5 A: Good afternoon. 6 Q: My name is Julian Roy and I'm one (1) 7 of the lawyers for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And -- and I just have a few 10 questions for you very, very briefly. 11 I notice that when you were asked about -- 12 for Wade Lacroix's identity in the questioning that 13 happened just before the break you paused a little bit 14 and you were a little bit reluctant to provide Mr. 15 Lacroix's name. Do you -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- remember that? And you were a 18 little reluctant to do that because it's very, very 19 difficult for a serving police officer to give evidence 20 that might be damaging to another officer; is that right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And that's because you have to 23 work with your fellow officers, right -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- in the future and you have to rely
2311 on them, right? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And if you give evidence again -- 4 that might be damaging to another officer that can give 5 you a bit of a bad reputation on the Force is that not 6 right? 7 A: That's possible, yes. 8 Q: Okay. And that's something that -- 9 that in terms of your impression of how officers interact 10 with one other that's a consideration that's in the mind 11 of -- of you as an officer and perhaps other officers? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, can you tell me anything about 14 Wade Lacroix's demeanour when he made this disclosure to 15 you? 16 A: I -- I think it was just general 17 conversation. 18 Q: Okay. And in terms of what he told 19 you, he told you he was the first one to hit Cecil 20 Bernard George; is that right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And from your impression of what he 23 was telling you there was more than just him because he 24 was just the first, right? 25 A: Yes.
2321 Q: Okay. And did he happen to mention 2 to you who the other officers were -- officer or officers 3 that applied force to Mr. Cecil Bernard George that 4 night? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did he happen to mention anything 7 else about the whole incident with Cecil Bernard George? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did anybody else other than Wade 10 Lacroix happen to mention anything to you about Cecil 11 Bernard George? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Aside from Wade Lacroix 14 talking to you about Cecil Bernard George do you recall 15 any other conversations that you might have had with 16 other members of the OPP, members of the CMU for example, 17 about the incident? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And -- and when I say, 20 "incident" I mean the whole events of September 6th, 21 1995, in the evening. 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. What about from the TRU team? 24 Did you have any contact with anybody from the TRU team, 25 any discussions with them concerning what happened?
2331 A: No, I very rarely have any contact 2 with TRU team members. 3 Q: All right. Now, aside from your 4 dealings with -- with Mark Wright in September of 1995 5 did you have any other experience working with Mark 6 Wright? 7 A: Yes, he was -- he was a Detective 8 Sergeant, head of the Crime Unit for Forest and Petrolia. 9 Q: All right. So you would have had a 10 reasonable amount of contact with him prior to the events 11 of September '95 right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you would have continued to have 14 contact with him after, right? 15 A: After '95? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Not so much, no. 18 Q: All right. Now, were you familiar 19 with the -- with the fact that he -- one (1) of Mark 20 Wright's nicknames was Popcorn? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was your understanding as to 23 how Mark Wright got the nickname Popcorn? 24 A: Just that he was energetic; all over 25 the place type of guy.
2341 Q: Okay. And we all -- we've also heard 2 evidence that he had the nickname Mouse. Do you know 3 where he got that from? 4 A: No. 5 Q: I just want to ask you a little bit 6 more about -- about what you've described as damaged 7 relationships -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- both with your family and with the 10 OPP after the events of September 6th, 1995. And I don't 11 want to ask you about family, I want to focus on -- on 12 the OPP side, all right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Your -- your -- you developed the 15 impression that certain members were elements within the 16 OPP viewed Ken Deane as a hero as a result of what 17 happened, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that's obviously very troubling 20 for you, right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And your impression was that -- that 23 impression largely came from the OPPA as opposed to the 24 OPP as an official institution, correct? 25 A: Yes.
2351 Q: Now, we've heard evidence, in fact we 2 heard evidence at the end of the day yesterday, that 3 Officer Dew was assigned in an official capacity to 4 assist at Ken Dean's defence team in advance of his 5 criminal trial. 6 Were you aware of that? 7 A: No, I wasn't. 8 Q: All right. And that this was done 9 with full knowledge of his superiors; that's obviously 10 not something that you'd be aware of either, right? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And now that -- are you troubled by 13 that, now that you've heard it? 14 A: Defence team? 15 Q: Yes. His -- his criminal defence 16 lawyer and perhaps an investigator that was privately 17 retained by Mr. Deane to assist him in preparing for his 18 criminal defence. 19 A: I -- I don't think I ever had any 20 issue with -- with the Association defending anybody in 21 terms of -- of charges, so forth. I mean, it's the old 22 saying that you're -- you're innocent until proven 23 guilty. 24 Q: That's right. 25 A: So -- so it was after the conviction
2361 that I began to have problems with that. 2 Q: Just in terms -- and your lack of 3 difficulty with it is based on the notion that it's the 4 OPPA that's providing some sort of assistance, right? 5 A: Some which? 6 Q: The O -- it's the -- your last answer 7 was premised on the notion that it's the OPPA that's 8 providing the assistance to Mr. Deane's defence. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. What I'm talking about is that 11 the actual -- the OPP assigned somebody, two (2) 12 officers, in an official capacity to assist Ken Deane in 13 preparing for his criminal defence. 14 You didn't know that that was happening, 15 right? 16 A: No. But I think they would do the 17 same thing for me. 18 Q: You would be under the impression 19 that the OPP would assign an officer or officers to 20 assist in gathering evidence concerning a criminal 21 defence? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. All right. Those are my 24 question, sir. Thank you very much, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you,
2371 Mr. Roy. 2 Yes, Mr. McDonald, do you have any 3 questions of your client? 4 MR. JAMES MCDONALD: I will be very 5 brief, Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JAMES MCDONALD: 9 Q: Sergeant George, if you might just 10 turn to your notes which are at Tab 10 of your -- of the 11 material that's in front of you. And I want to ask you 12 just a few questions about that last evening and -- and 13 your conduct on the night of September the 6th. 14 And Mr. Scullion had asked you a number of 15 questions and he had implied that after you obtained this 16 information about the burial site from your parents, that 17 you didn't follow it up with Cliff George and that you 18 didn't -- sorry, and that you didn't contact Mark Wright 19 or -- or Carson or -- or anybody after that. 20 And if I just can get the sequence of the 21 events correct. We can straighten that out. I think 22 it's been clarified that you were asked by Mark Wright in 23 the morning on September the 6th to ask -- seek out some 24 information about the burial site; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
2381 Q: And at that time was there any sense 2 of urgency that was communicated to you in terms of your 3 obtaining that kind of information and your reporting 4 back to -- to Mark Wright or to anybody else? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And did you yourself believe that 7 there was any sense of urgency to you obtaining that 8 information and communicating it back to somebody else? 9 A: No real urgency other than I better 10 get on it, you know. 11 Q: And it was an assignment that you 12 took -- you assumed as in -- in the course of your other 13 assignments at least similar -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- to your other assignments? And I 16 assume that when you took on those assignments, you 17 reported in the ordinary course when you obtained 18 information, is that -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- is actually what happened? And as 21 I look at your handwritten notes, and it seems to be the 22 document that's at the font -- if we look at that evening 23 of September the 6th, I think it's the font at -- font 24 39552. 25 Do you see that in your handwritten notes?
2391 Are you there? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay, in your handwritten notes at 4 Tab 10. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: For September the 6th, and I'm 7 looking particularly at 20:45. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. So you went off duty at 20:00 13 and that'd be at eight o'clock, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And it was after you went off 16 duty that you then phoned your parents? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: So that was at 20:45? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Right. And it seems at that time 21 that, according to your notes, you raised a couple of 22 issues; one was the issue about having the feast -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: -- and about potentially scheduling a 25 feast. And did you, at that time, think that there was
2401 any urgency to scheduling a feast or setting up a feast? 2 A: No, I think, just in trying to 3 develop some kind of mechanism for trying to resolve 4 this. 5 Q: Right. And that was something that 6 you were discussing with your parents as something that 7 you might want to pursue in terms of just decreasing the 8 tension that you seemed to believe was occurring. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right. And then -- and then you 11 asked the information about the burial site and you got 12 that information in the course of this conversation with 13 your parents? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right. And so that was at 8:45, nine 16 o'clock on that evening. 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. And had anything been 19 communicated to you by Inspector Mark Wright or was there 20 anything from your -- from how you felt when you left 21 work at eight o'clock that evening that led you to 22 believe you ought to get that information immediately to 23 Inspector Wright? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And did you feel there was any
2411 urgency to it? 2 A: No, not right away. 3 Q: And would you have communicated that 4 information in the ordinary course of the events that 5 hadn't -- that occurred that -- later that evening, 6 hadn't occurred? 7 A: Probably, yes. 8 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Scullion, also in one 9 of his questions he -- he said that there had been some 10 concern or at least there was something, he asked you 11 whether it was true that you did not play a major role in 12 the planning or execution -- execution of Project Maple. 13 Do you remember him saying -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- that? Well let alone a major 16 role, did you play any role whatsoever in the planning or 17 execution of Project Maple? 18 A: None whatsoever. 19 Q: And I believe that -- that Mr. Worme 20 showed you the exhibit where your name was set out as 21 part of a team in the planning document for Project 22 Maple. 23 I'm not going to take you to that 24 document -- 25 A: Yes.
2421 Q: -- but you recall that? 2 A: Yes. I was totally unaware of my 3 name being on that doc -- document. 4 Q: You weren't -- you had never been 5 asked or it had never been suggested to you or you had 6 never been told that your name was even in that document; 7 isn't that correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And when did you first become aware 10 that your name was in that document as part of Project 11 Maple? 12 A: I think this process over the next -- 13 past couple of days I became aware of it. 14 Q: And one question, Sergeant George, 15 with respect to the information that you were obtaining, 16 Mr. Scullion suggested or asked you that, because you 17 weren't told about what the information was used for, you 18 weren't able to cull that information for accuracy. 19 Did you believe that you were supposed to 20 in anyway whatsoever, cull it for accuracy or did you in 21 any way, in effect, screen the information that you were 22 obtaining from the informant? 23 A: Well, I think as a police officer, 24 you try not and corroborate any information that you're 25 getting, but that to me was left up to the people I was -
2431 - I was giving it to. 2 Q: So your role, as you understood it, 3 was simply to obtain the information, pass it on and then 4 it was up to somebody else to -- to corroborate that 5 information or use it for whatever purposes? 6 Or that -- was that your understanding -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- of what you were to do? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I think you said that at that 11 time, you hadn't been train -- you hadn't received any 12 training as an intelligence officer? 13 A: Correct, no training. 14 Q: And at that time, you were just going 15 about doing your regular duties as a -- as a sergeant in 16 addition to doing this one assignment that had been 17 assigned -- 18 A: Yes -- 19 Q: -- or given to you? 20 A: -- I was a constable at that time. 21 My regular duties -- 22 Q: That's right, you were a constable 23 then, correct. 24 A: -- shift work and so forth, yes, so. 25 Q: Okay. You were also asked by Mr.
2441 Scullion about your remarks about making an arrest? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Do you even recall making 4 those comments? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. And do you recall, would it 7 have bene something you said on one (1) occasion or more 8 than one (1) occasion or do you even remember that? 9 A: Yeah, I'm not denying I said that. I 10 just don't recall, you know, that conversation. 11 Q: And was that something that you were 12 pursuing in any way or that you did pursue in any way, or 13 do you know -- 14 A: No. No, I wasn't pursuing that. It 15 might have been just conversation outside, like I said 16 before, a conversation, tossing ideas around as to how to 17 resolve the issue of dialogue and negotiations. 18 Q: Okay. And just -- you were asked at 19 the -- just before we went off for the lunch break, about 20 -- you were asked about the impact that all of this had 21 had on you. 22 Do you have anything more that you wish to 23 say about the impact of what happened on September the 24 6th and the death of Dudley George and all that flowed 25 from that?
2451 Is there anything more you wish to say 2 about the impact of all of those events on you, both as a 3 member of the community and as a police officer? 4 A: Nothing more than that other than I - 5 - I guess one would really hope that relationships could 6 be built again, you know, in view of everything's that's 7 happened. 8 Q: And relationships with both family 9 members and police officers -- 10 A: Yes. Yes. 11 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. 14 Any re-examination, Mr. Worme? 15 MR. DONALD WORME: I have no re- 16 examination but I wish to thank Sergeant George for his 17 attendance here and sharing his testimony. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much, Sergeant George, for giving us your evidence. 20 Thank you very much. 21 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 22 23 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a
2461 very short break now to give the next witness a chance 2 and the next Counsel a chance to set up. We'll take a 3 short break. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess. 5 6 --- Upon recessing at 2:48 p.m. 7 --- Upon resuming at 3:08 p.m. 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 10 resumed, please be seated. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, thank 12 you. The Commission calls as its next witness Stan 13 Korosec. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 15 Korosec. 16 MR. STANLEY KOROSEC: Good afternoon. 17 18 STANLEY FRANK KOROSEC, Sworn 19 20 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Thank you. Mr. Korosec, if you would 22 take the black book in front of you and turn to Tab 1, 23 please? 24 And at Tab 1 is a copy of Inquiry Document 25 2005531. And that is your curriculum vitae?
2471 A: Correct. 2 Q: And I would ask that this be marked 3 the next exhibit? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1294, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1294: Document Number 2005531. 7 Resume of Stan Korosec. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And I understand, Mr. Korosec, that 11 you obtained a Bachelor of Commerce with Honours in 12 Business Administration from the University of Windsor in 13 1982? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And that you worked from 1982 to 1983 16 as an immigration officer at the Blue Water Bridge in 17 Sarnia? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And that you joined the Ontario 20 Provincial Police in January of 1985? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you were assigned to the Forest 23 Detachment? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And you served at the Forest
2481 Detachment, first as a probationary constable, then a 2 regular constable, until 1993? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And during this period, '85 to '93, 5 you were seconded for two (2) years to assist Sarnia 6 Police with a major investigation? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And you were a member of the Crowd 9 Control Unit from 1990 until 1993? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And that's the unit that evolved into 12 the Emergency Response Team? 13 A: Yes, it did. 14 Q: And I understand that you attended 15 First Nations awareness training in 1993? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And can you tell us a little bit 18 about that, what that involved? 19 A: I believe it was at the Curve Lake 20 First Nations, just outside of Peterborough, I believe. 21 That was in relation to my role, I got promoted in '93 22 and took a sergeant position at the Sombra Detachment -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: -- at that time, and I was asked to 25 be the liaison officer, the OPP liaison officer for the
2491 Walpole Island First Nations police. 2 So as a result of that, it was sometime in 3 -- after that spring, early summer of '93, I believe, 4 that I attended that seminar up at the Curve Lake First 5 Nations. 6 Q: And I understand that was a two (2) 7 to three (3) day training session. 8 A: I believe it was. 9 Q: And prior to that, had you had any 10 training in First Nations issues? 11 A: I don't believe so, no. 12 Q: And I understand, as you've just 13 said, that you were promoted to sergeant and reassigned 14 to Sombra Detachment in 1993? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And as you've just advised us, you 17 were appointed First Nation liaison officer dealing with 18 Walpole Island First Nation? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner a 21 little bit about what you did, your duties as the First 22 Nation liaison officer? 23 A: Well I worked -- I worked closely 24 with the Chief of Police down there on -- on any concerns 25 or issues where -- where the OPP could be of assistance.
2501 I attended the -- was a -- I believe it 2 was a Civil Authority they were called, or sort of a 3 police services board, and that's what they were called 4 down there. I attended those meetings and basically was 5 a, you know, to see whatever help we could be, the OPP, 6 operationally or administratively in assisting them with 7 their policing. 8 Q: Okay. And I understand that in 1993, 9 as well, you completed a fraud investigations course, 10 Level I and II at the Ontario Police College? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And what did that involve? 13 A: The first level I course was -- it 14 was something I was interested in at the time because of 15 my work with the Sarnia police on a -- on a fraud 16 investigation, and my schooling, that we would be in the 17 area I'd want to pursue. 18 So I expressed some interest in attending 19 fraud investigations courses. So first one was -- was a 20 basic introductory level, dealing with fraudulent cheques 21 and false pretences and whatnot. 22 And the -- the second fraud course, I 23 believe, was -- was a little more detailed, going into 24 some types of forensic accounting and that -- those types 25 of issues.
2511 Q: And I understand, as well, and this 2 is at page 3 of your CV exhibit -- page 4, excuse me, 3 Exhibit P-1294, that you had a -- took a management 4 training course, an advanced patrol training course, as 5 well as an emergency site management and emergencies 6 operation centre management course from the Canadian 7 Emergency Preparedness. 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And when were those courses taken? 10 All in the mid -- early to mid '90's? 11 A: Yeah. I can't recall exactly when -- 12 when I took those. 13 Q: And in 1994, I understand you 14 attended a ERT training course in, I believe it was CFB 15 Meaford? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that -- and can you tell us -- I 18 understand that was a six (6) week course? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it involved crowd management 21 training? 22 A: Yes, that was one -- one of the -- 23 Q: Some VIP security training? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And search and rescue training?
2521 A: Correct. 2 Q: And the course that you took was a 3 basic introductory course. Can you tell us a little bit 4 about the course, what it's purpose was and... 5 A: Emergency response teams had been 6 formed. I'm trying to remember, but to -- to provide the 7 OPP with some additional resources and training of 8 specific personnel to -- to assist operationally in -- in 9 those areas, search and rescue and crowd management and 10 give some -- some formalized training and structure to 11 these -- to these teams. 12 Prior to that crowd -- crowd control unit, 13 it was pretty well the only function we did. We maybe 14 did some evidence searches as part of those duties. 15 So these -- these were courses to some 16 formalized training, give some expertise to our team 17 members on -- on how to perform those various functions. 18 Q: And was there ongoing training of ERT 19 team members after they completed the course? I take it 20 all ERT team members took this course? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And was there ongoing training for 23 ERT team members? 24 A: Yeah. There was a requirement to do 25 ongoing maintenance training, as they called it, and I
2531 think it was twelve (12) days a year that the -- the team 2 had to do refresher -- refresher training on -- on -- I 3 think it was broken down to so many days for crowd 4 management, so many days for search and rescue and so 5 many days for the other things over a course of a year. 6 Q: Okay. And I understand that you were 7 a -- after you had been promoted to Sergeant, you acted 8 as a Sergeant in Sombra Detachment, Petrolia and Point 9 Edward Detachments? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And that was for the period 1993 to 12 2003? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And in 2003 you left the Ontario 15 Provincial Police? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And became Vice-President of 18 Operations at the Blue Water Bridge Authority? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And that's where you are today? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now in 1995, as an ERT team leader -- 23 you were an ERT team leader in 1995? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And can you just describe your role,
2541 generally, not with respect to Project Maple, we'll get 2 to that, but, generally, as an ERT team leader? 3 A: Well there was two (2) functions: I 4 guess first, administratively, ensuring that the team's 5 had its proper training. If there were new members -- if 6 there were vacancies on the team, to ensure that, you 7 know, you'd have new members identified and trained; 8 equipment issues, maintenance training. 9 And then on the operational side of things 10 when you went -- when there was an incident that required 11 ERT team activation, that, as the ERT leader, you would 12 be in -- in the Command Post or with an Incident 13 Commander, receiving instructions on what the situation 14 was, where should to deploy personnel, and -- and a 15 general review of what -- what the incident was what we - 16 - they asked us to be doing. 17 Q: And the -- an ERT team in 1995 18 consisted, as I understand it, a typical ERT team of 19 fourteen (14) constables and an assistant leader and a 20 team leader? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And the assistant leader and the team 23 leader would have -- was a sergeant? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And can you tell us -- do you know
2551 when the Crowd Control Unit became the Crowd Management 2 Unit? 3 A: It was all part of that six (6) weeks 4 of training we had at Meaford. There was a whole new 5 vision for what Crowd Management Units were and -- and a 6 whole philosophy on how they would -- how they would 7 handle crowd situations. 8 So that's what this training was. Once we 9 completed that training I guess we were given the name of 10 Crowd Management. It was a Crowd Management Unit within 11 the ERT team; it was -- it was a function of ERT. 12 Q: It was one of the functions of an ERT 13 team? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And a Crowd Management Unit, as I 16 understand it, was typically made up of at least two (2) 17 ERT teams? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And what was the philosophy, as you 20 recall it, of the Crowd Management Unit when that 21 philosophy came into play in 1994? 22 A: They picked up -- I think the OPP 23 picked up on the new training, a new philosophy from -- 24 from overseas, and it might have been over in London, 25 England or -- where someone come up with this new
2561 philosophy. 2 A lot of more of it was -- was proactive; 3 getting to -- to get to a situation, I guess, and try and 4 -- try and diffuse it or keep it calm before it got out 5 of hand, instead of reactive and -- and marching down the 6 road against a picket line or -- or whatever the 7 situation might be. 8 To be a little bit more proactive and -- 9 and maintain or -- or show a presence prior to any 10 disturbance, maybe try and talk to some people and -- and 11 say, Listen, we don't want any problems here, let's just, 12 you know, try and negotiate some things ahead of time, 13 before it got out of hand. 14 So it was a real -- an emphasis on -- on 15 proactive and maybe showing a presence, although not a, 16 you know, a wall of officers type presence as maybe 17 scattered more about and trying to maybe identify any 18 leaders or if there was any potential troublemakers. 19 So that was a -- a real shift, I think. 20 And then the equipment that -- that came with that was -- 21 was a lot different than what we used to have in the old 22 Crowd Control Unit days. 23 Q: And what was -- can you tell us what 24 the difference in the equipment was? 25 A: I -- there was better -- better
2571 helmets. I think in the Crowd Control days we used to 2 have these overalls that we -- we joked about we could 3 mistaken for -- change people's oil with them. It was 4 just a one (1) piece. It was -- it wasn't fire resistant 5 or fire retardant. 6 There was more protective equipment, 7 better communications through the -- through the helmets 8 that were provided. 9 Q: And when a Crowd Management Unit was 10 deployed, was there a change in philosophy with respect 11 to the use of a Crowd Management Unit? 12 A: Along with the training, with the two 13 (2) -- the two (2) ERT teams to form one (1) Crowd 14 Management Unit, there was also an Incident Commander 15 that had to be, what we called, on the ground or with the 16 Crowd Management Unit. I forget where his position was, 17 probably somewhere in the centre of -- of the unit in a - 18 - in a certain formation. 19 And that Incident Commander for crowd 20 management would be the one directing the entire team on 21 -- on whether they should advance or move this way, move 22 that way, or -- or retreat. So he, the Incident 23 Commander for the Crowd Management Unit, would basically 24 call the shots on the ground as to what was happening. 25 Q: And that Incident Commander for a
2581 Crowd Management Unit was a position filled by a staff 2 sergeant? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And in 1995 you were the team leader 5 for the Number 1 District ERT team? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And I know that the OPP was going 8 through a re-organization during this period of time, but 9 Number 1 District ERT team was composed of officers from 10 Petrolia, Sombra? Can you tell us... 11 A: The old Number 1 District was 12 Lambton, Kent, it was back then in Kent County and Essex 13 County, so officers from those three (3) counties, that 14 detachment. And for the purposes of just identifying 15 ourselves, I think after -- even after the re-org it was 16 still the Number 1 ERT -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- just to kind of differentiate 19 yourselves from the other teams. 20 Q: And so the officers for your ERT team 21 were drawn from -- from those three (3) areas -- 22 A: From those three (3) counties. 23 Q: -- from Lambton, Kent, Essex? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, when you were posted to the
2591 Forest Detachment, the -- what work, if any, did you do 2 with the Kettle Point Police? 3 A: We worked very closely with the -- 4 with the Kettle Point Police. I remember, during my -- 5 my probationary period anyway, my coach officer would 6 ensure that I got down to Kettle Point, just like any 7 other communities that we have here, and get to learn the 8 area, learn the -- you know, who were the people were, 9 try and meet as many people as you could. 10 And after -- after my probationary period 11 was done, I remember, we call it "doubling up," but at 12 nighttime I'd jump in -- in the cruiser, in the Kettle 13 Point cruiser, on many occasions, with the officers there 14 and -- and go on patrol with them. 15 Q: And so is it fair to say that you 16 assisted the Kettle Point officers and the Kettle Point 17 officers assisted you? 18 A: Yeah. If it wasn't for the -- for 19 the shoulder flashes we all pretty well worked together. 20 If there was, you know, a larger incident on Kettle Point 21 we'd go down there and help out. 22 And occasionally they'd come out and help 23 us too, out in -- pretty well in the surrounding area, 24 Ipperwash and -- and sometimes down to Forest. If there 25 was a serious situation they'd come and help us out too.
2601 Q: And at some point during the period 2 of time when you were at -- stationed at -- posted at 3 Forest, did that relationship change? 4 A: It seemed to change at some point; 5 not so much on the constable, the constable level or on 6 the operational level as -- as much as maybe on higher 7 up. 8 Q: And what -- do you have any 9 understanding as to what changed, to cause this change? 10 A: I believe it was around the time that 11 Miles Bressette was -- was the chief down there, when he 12 first became the chief. And I don't recall exactly what 13 year or when this happened, but I was -- I was aware 14 that, now, especially the First Nations OPP officers or 15 any of us that wanted to go onto the reserve, we had to 16 notify --notify them that we were -- we were coming onto 17 -- onto Kettle Point and for what reason. 18 In the past, we used to go down there as a 19 matter of patrol and I saw Shirley George her earlier. 20 Used to go see her down at the -- at the office all the 21 time. 22 That changed and there was some sort of 23 policy or something, I remember, that was -- that we were 24 made aware of that we weren't allowed to do that any more 25 without first asking or advising.
2611 Q: And you said that Mr. Miles Bressette 2 became chief, you meant Chief of Police? 3 A: I -- sorry, yes, Chief of Police. 4 Q: And when in 1993 did you leave Forest 5 to become the sergeant in Sombra? 6 A: I believe it was February or March of 7 '93. 8 Q: And prior to leaving Forest, were you 9 aware of any issues surrounding the Army Camp lands? 10 A: I can't recall if I was aware of that 11 prior to leaving or -- 12 Q: At some point prior -- 13 A: At some point -- 14 Q: -- to -- 15 A: At some point I was aware there was 16 some -- some issues of -- of the land being returned to 17 the First Nations people, probably more than anything 18 from media reports. 19 Q: And were you familiar with a incident 20 where people were handing out pamphlets along Highway 21? 21 A: I recall something like that, yes. 22 Q: And that was with respect to the Army 23 Camp? 24 A: I believe it was. 25 Q: And was it your understanding that
2621 the members of the community, First Nations community, 2 wanted the land back? 3 A: That's my understanding, yes. 4 Q: And were you aware of the -- of there 5 a -- a burial site being on the Army Camp? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: And had you -- up to 1993, had you 8 heard anything about a burial site on the Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And did you have anything to do with 12 the occu -- the policing of the occupation of a portion 13 of the Army Camp in May, June or July of 1993? 14 A: No, I was down in Sombra at that 15 time. 16 Q: And I understand that your 17 involvement arose when the Crowd Control Unit was called 18 out to assist in the execution of a search warrant in 19 August 1993? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And at Tab 2 are your notes -- it's 22 Inquiry document 2005162, are your notes with respect to 23 that being called out; is that correct? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And that took place on August the
2631 24th, 1993? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And the search -- were you aware that 4 the search was as a result of the alleged shooting of a 5 helicopter? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And I would ask that those notes be 8 marked the next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1295, Your Honour. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1295: Document Number 2005162. OPP 12 handwritten notebook entries 13 of Stan Korosec, August 24, 14 1993. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And can you just briefly tell us what 18 you did? 19 A: Mark Wright was the -- was the team 20 leader at that time, I think I was his assistant. We 21 viewed the -- viewed the search warrant, I believe, at 22 the Forest Detachment. 23 And then about -- 24 Q: You're referring to some -- the notes 25 -- a separate set of notes at Tab 3. This is Inquiry
2641 Document 2003658. Is that right? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And this was a statement that you 4 prepared for what reason, sir? 5 A: Well anytime we were involved in -- 6 in any incident, we always provided a copy of our notes 7 and a written or a typed statement in case any charges 8 that we included in a brief. 9 It's just our own -- our own evidence. 10 Q: So this was a routine -- it's routine 11 to create these -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- types of documents? Perhaps I'll 14 ask that that be marked the next exhibit. It's Tab 3, 15 Inquiry Document 2003658. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1296, Your Honour. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1296: Document Number 2003658. OPP 19 Statement of Stan Korosec re. 20 Military Helicopter shooting 21 incident, typed statement 22 August 24, 1993. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And I take it, from P-1296, that you
2651 were briefed by Sergeant Wright and then attended with 2 members of your -- your ERT team? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: To assist them -- 5 A: Well -- yes. 6 Q: To assist in the search? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And I understand that the search went 9 on most of -- all day until late afternoon? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And Sergeant Wright indicated that in 12 his evidence, and this is found in Exhibit P-1092, that 13 what was seized were several high voltage handheld 14 lights, one (1) pellet pistol, one (1) flare gun and 15 several rounds of ammunition of various calibres? 16 Do you recall that being -- 17 A: I -- I don't recall anything being 18 seized, but I have no reason to doubt that. 19 Q: And after the search was completed, 20 what role, if any, did you play with respect to the 21 investigation after August 24th? 22 A: I had no further involvement in -- in 23 that investigation. 24 Q: And did you have any further 25 involvement with the CFB Ipperwash, the Army Camp lands
2661 in 1993? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: And in 1994? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: And if I might ask you to take a look 6 at -- excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 7 You'll find in front of you on the -- at 8 the top of the left hand -- right at the top of the table 9 there, Mr. Korosec, that's a copy of Exhibit P-1093. 10 And this related to a training course that 11 was put on in June 14th and 15th, 1994, and again in 1994 12 with respect to issues at West Ipperwash Beach and the 13 Ipperwash Provincial Par -- the Army Camp beach. 14 And do your recognize this document, sir? 15 A: I -- I don't recall it, no. 16 Q: And do you recall attending the 17 training? 18 A: No, I don't. 19 Q: We note that you did attend, if you 20 look about a third of the way from the back, at -- on 21 June the 15th, 1994 there's a list and your sign-in sheet 22 for the afternoon of June 15th, 1994 and your name 23 appears. 24 A: Yes, it does, yeah. 25 Q: And your name does not appear in
2671 1995. But you don't recall any -- the training. 2 Did you have anything to do with 3 patrolling West Ipperwash Beach or the Army Camp or 4 Ipperwash Provincial Park on a regular basis in 1994? 5 A: No, sir. 6 Q: And at Tab 4 there's a document, it's 7 dated June 29th, 1994 and it relates to an incident on 8 Matheson Drive in -- I'm trying to find the date -- 9 A: The 24th of June. 10 Q: June 24th? 11 A: Or 29th, I'm sorry. The 29th of 12 June. 13 Q: June 29th, 1994. And it -- on the 14 second page of this document which is Inquiry Document 15 2005491 there's a reference to: 16 "Supervising NCO Sergeant Korosec 17 notified of this occurrence." 18 And this occurrence involved a car pushing 19 the gates open at the Provincial Park and the Army Camp. 20 And do you recall being involved in this 21 incident? 22 A: Well, I -- I don't -- I don't recall 23 this specific incident. I do know at that time that we'd 24 gone through a reorganization in Lambton County where the 25 Sombra, Petrolia, and Forest. and I don't know if Pinery
2681 was -- was still in existence back then, where we kind of 2 started to amalgamate and there was a -- a county wide 3 schedule that -- that we had done. So this may have been 4 -- I may have been the supervisor on duty for the entire 5 -- for the entire county at that point. 6 I don't recall attending there and -- and 7 reading from this. It looks like I was notified either 8 by a phone call or -- or by radio that -- that this had 9 occurred. 10 Q: So that as part of your duties as a - 11 - the supervisor for the area when you were on -- 12 assigned to that post you would be routinely told of this 13 and I take it other incidents that occurred? 14 A: Correct. There was -- it was a big 15 county so there was as -- officer you never can get to -- 16 to every call unless it was really serious but I would 17 expect the constables would keep me informed of what -- 18 of what was going on. 19 Q: And the -- did -- do you recall being 20 told that the individual involved, Mr. David Abraham 21 George, indicated to the officers that the land was 22 Stoney Point land and the OPP had no jurisdiction; that's 23 on page 2? 24 A: I -- I don't recall that. I -- 25 Q: And perhaps just for identification
2691 we'll mark this the next exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1297, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1297: Document Number 2005491. OPP 5 Occurrence Report, Korosec is 6 notified of incident as 7 supervising NCO, June 29, 8 1994. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And at Tab 5, Mr, Korosec, there are 12 some notes and these notes are dated February 26th, 1995. 13 And the notes relate to an incident, as we understand it, 14 in Kettle Point in February of 1995 involving a gentleman 15 by the name of Daryl George? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And I see that these notes are on a 18 different size of paper than a regular police notebook. 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And can you tell us why that's so? 21 A: In -- we were allowed -- and -- and 22 other units within the OPP may -- may have been as well, 23 like special units, I -- I don't know for sure, but we 24 were allowed to keep a book for all our -- like the one I 25 have here, of all incidents involving just ERT
2701 activities. 2 It's just easier to keep all -- all -- any 3 ERT functions that were performed or callouts for ease of 4 access in -- in one (1) book, as separate from a -- from 5 a police book where you might be flipping in between non- 6 ERT duties and ERT duties. So those were recorded in 7 most cases in -- in my book here for -- for ERT 8 functions. 9 Q: And so that was a three (3) ring 10 binder type -- small three (3) ring binder type book? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And as opposed to your regular police 13 notes? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And on this incident what were -- 16 what was your ERT team asked to do? 17 A: We were asked to do outer perimeter 18 duties, to form an outer perimeter before this incident. 19 Q: And that's what you did? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And do you recall who was the 22 Incident Commander? 23 A: Inspector Linton. 24 Q: And this took place during the night? 25 A: Yeah. I was initially called at --
2711 at 10:00 the night before. 2 Q: On February 26th? 3 A: Yes, and I arrived at the Forest 4 Detachment shortly after midnight. 5 Q: And the incident ended as I -- 6 actually, these notes are -- I'm sorry, I apologize to My 7 Friends, Inquiry Document 2005577. And My Friends, just 8 for the purposes of My Friends, the book of -- that 9 Sergeant Korosec has that has been scanned into the 10 database, we've divided it up into a couple of different 11 groupings, just for the ease of -- of use. 12 And I would ask that these notes be marked 13 the next exhibit, these four (4) -- five (5) pages. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1298, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1298: Document Number 2005577. 17 Handwritten notebook entries 18 of Stan Korosec, February 26, 19 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And I note that on the third page 23 that the -- there's a note at 06:25. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
2721 A: Yes. 2 Q: Could you read that note. Aft -- 3 starting "after". 4 A: "After TRU Thunderflash, several 5 civilians began to walk towards 6 suspect's house. They moved several of 7 the units. Wanted to come see drive 8 area to help contain the civilians. 9 FNC Miles Bressette drew up to 10 suspect's residence and eventually 11 talked him into surrendering." 12 Q: And as a result of Miles Bressette's 13 attendance, the suspect surrendered. And the last line 14 "10:19" -- 15 A: For debrief. 16 Q: That's -- for debrief. Incident 17 ended at -- sometime after 6:25? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And what's a TRU Thunderflash? 20 A: It's a -- it's a device they use to - 21 - it makes a loud sound, it's almost like a large fire 22 cracker or something, to -- to wake up, maybe, someone 23 who's in a house or -- or who's passed out. 24 Q: That's the idea behind it? 25 A: That's the idea behind it, from my
2731 understanding of it, anyway. 2 Q: And at 8:15 on the fourth page there 3 was a debriefing with Inspector Linton? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And there's a note: 6 "Get white board [brackets] (cop 7 shop)..." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: "...?[Question mark, close bracket]. 10 Tighter outer perimeter for..." 11 Can you just read that, please? 12 A: Yeah. 13 "The -- a tighter outer per -- outer 14 perimeter for ERT and have uniforms. 15 Close down roads, especially in 16 unfriendly areas/communities." 17 Q: And what was the note with respect to 18 the white board and the cop shop? 19 A: White board is something we can -- 20 you draw roads and maps on it with dry erase markers. 21 And the cop shop is a -- or was at that time, anyway, a - 22 - a business, I think, in Ingersoll or Woodstock that 23 provided police equipment and police related materials. 24 So those were one of the things we 25 identified or maybe I identified, that we needed
2741 something like this when we go to incidents so we can 2 draw out a map of where we are. 3 Q: And then the next, the tighter outer 4 perimeter, that was a recommendation? 5 A: Yeah, no, I -- I know we discussed 6 that because of the civilians breaching the outer 7 perimeter and our job was to keep that -- keep that area 8 secure. 9 And I remember it was difficult to do in 10 this situation because of the -- the big area that it was 11 and open fields and whatnot. 12 Q: And there's a reference, "especially 13 in unfriendly areas/communities"; what's that refer to? 14 A: I think normal -- normally in -- in 15 other situations if there's a serious police situation 16 going on, people would maybe go away from the scene if 17 there was a danger or something. 18 And in this case, we had people going 19 towards the scene and the thinking was there that we got 20 to do something better to protect them and to protect the 21 officers inside the inner perimeter, which was TRU at 22 that time, to protect them from civilians and, like I 23 said, to protect civilians from getting into harm's way. 24 Q: Okay. And if I could move on to the 25 summer of 1995, I understand you were on vacation on July
2751 29th, 1995? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And your ERT team was called out to 4 the Ipperwash area on August the 7th, 1995? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And the ERT notes for this period of 7 time, August the 7th and the following days, you were 8 there from August the 7th to August the 10th; is that 9 correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And the notes appear at Tab 6 from 12 your ERT notebook, again, part of Inquiry Document 13 2005577 and it's five (5) pages. Those are from your ERT 14 notebook, Mr. Korosec? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: I would ask that they be the next 17 exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1299, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1299: Document Number 2005577. 21 Handwritten notebook entries 22 of Stan Korosec, August 07 to 23 10, 1995, August 07, 1995. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
2761 Q: And I also note that you've got what 2 appear to be at -- if you look at Tab 9, regular notes 3 for the period, August the 7th, 1995 to August the -- 4 beyond actually August the 10th to August 11th and 14th. 5 And the -- can you tell us why you have 6 two (2) sets of notes for the same period of time. And 7 the second set of notes is, for the benefit of My 8 Friends, from the regular notebook, 2005576. Frankly, 9 they appear to be the same, more or less. 10 A: They're just about, yes. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: What I tried to do, and obviously not 13 all the time, but what I try to do is keep -- in -- in my 14 regular police notebook for -- for administrative 15 purposes, on-duty, off-duty time, any -- any overtime 16 hours accumulated or whatnot. 17 For -- for ERT incidences here I obviously 18 I -- I put notes into -- into both books. 19 Q: And your note making practice, can 20 you tell us what your usual note making practice is in 21 terms of when you made the notes in relation to the 22 incident? 23 A: Well you try and make your notes as 24 soon as practicable after -- after any incident and that 25 can -- you know, that can arrange from immediately after
2771 to several minutes or a half hour, hour after, depending 2 on what -- on what you're dealing with at the time. 3 Q: And did you follow this practice in 4 making the notes at Tab 6 and Tab 9? 5 A: As best I could, yes. 6 Q: And for the completeness of the 7 record, if we could mark 2005576 as the next exhibit, it 8 would be 9 P-1300. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1300: Document Number 2005576. 13 Handwritten notebook entries 14 of Stan Korosec, August 07 to 15 14, 1995. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And what was -- what role was 19 assigned to -- if I could take you back to Tab 6, Exhibit 20 P-1299, on August the 7th, 1995, to the ERT team that you 21 led? 22 A: Basically our duties were basic 23 general policing duties in the area of -- of the Army 24 Camp and Ipperwash beach area, Highway 21. 25 We were just tasked with doing regular
2781 policing duties. 2 Q: And where did you stay when you were 3 down there for those three (3) days? Did you go back and 4 forth? 5 A: We -- we stayed at the -- with the 6 Pinery Provincial Park at the bunkhouses there. 7 Q: In a bunkhouse. 8 A: All the ERT teams that were there 9 stayed there for the duration of the four (4) days. 10 Q: And the -- using -- can you tell us 11 generally what you did during this period of time? 12 A: Well a lot of my duties were just 13 what you would normally associate with -- with a 14 sergeant. I -- I had a platoon of eight (8) officers 15 there and we had to set up a schedule being where we were 16 at, and kind of setting up your own little -- little mini 17 detachment thing; so there's scheduling, administrative 18 duties. 19 You'd assign the officers their shifts, 20 what cars they would be in, what -- what call signs their 21 cars would be and send them on their way. 22 Q: And I note at the bottom of page -- 23 the first page, August 7, it says: 24 "V -- VEH [I take it, vehicle] 25 stopped."
2791 A: Yes. 2 Q: "Complete vehicle --" 3 A: Check sheet. 4 Q: "-- and place in tray for Sergeant 5 Reid?" 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And do you know what that was about? 8 A: We had in the OPP and I don't know if 9 it refers to that but they had what was called contact 10 cards or contact sheets to fill out any time you're going 11 to stop -- any time you stop a -- maybe a suspicious 12 vehicle or -- or something you may not quite feel right 13 about. It was more an intelligence gathering document. 14 And so that was done through out the 15 course of the OPP no matter where you were. We just had 16 a system set up; there'd be a tray at the -- at the 17 Pinery, at the bunkhouse there where these -- where these 18 check sheets would be placed and Sergeant Reid would pick 19 them up. 20 Q: And I note that on page 2 you were 21 off- duty at 04:00 hours and the -- the reference is: 22 "No incidents. Quiet night." 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And the note before it was -- is at 25 19:30. Can you read that for us?
2801 A: "At 19:30 I briefed team members. 2 P/C Martin advised of gunshots in the 3 Army Base." 4 Q: And did he say anything beyond that-- 5 A: That -- that's all I -- that's all I 6 have noted and -- and he may have called me or how he 7 relayed that to me that he heard some gunshots. 8 Q: And was Constable Martin part of your 9 ERT team? 10 A: No, he was not. 11 Q: And I believe he was an undercover 12 camper at the time; were you aware of that? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: And did you play any role in setting 15 up the undercover camper operation? 16 A: No, sir. 17 Q: And then at Tab 7 there's a copy of 18 Inquiry Document 2000883 and this is a -- it's on an 19 interview report, but this is a report that you prepared 20 for -- while you were down at the Army -- patrolling this 21 area? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And do you recall what was done with 24 these -- with this report? 25 A: Again any -- any incidents were to be
2811 -- to be written out and put on a -- put on this form and 2 again there was a -- a tray set up at the -- at the 3 bunkhouse where they were supposed to be picked up and -- 4 and relayed back to -- to Forest. 5 Q: And at Tab 8 and at Tab 12 -- at Tab 6 8 you'll find extracts from Exhibit P-411 was -- which 7 has been identified as the CFB Ipperwash Incidents Log 8 and Tab 12. It's Exhibit P-413 which is the CFB 9 Intelligence Report. 10 And P-413 starts principally at July -- 11 starts on July 29th, 1995. 12 And did you have any role in maintaining 13 either of these two (2) logs? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: And I would ask that 2000833 be 16 marked the next exhibit? 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-1301, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1301: Document Number 2000833. OPP 20 handwritten Interview Report 21 by Stan Korosec, August 07 to 22 10, 1995. 23 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And there's a 25 citizen's name that appears on August the 10th, 1995, at
2821 22:45 hours. There's a name and an address. 2 The second line, Mr. Registrar, that 3 should be whited out -- 4 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- on the public 6 copy. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And as your notes indicated, on 10 August the 7th there were no incidents. If you turn to 11 Tab 7, your report. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Got it. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And was your practice to simply note 17 on the form that's now P-1301, significant incidents, Mr. 18 Korosec? 19 How would it get to this form from your 20 notes? 21 A: I don't understand. 22 Q: How did you decide what would go on 23 the form that you handed in? 24 A: On -- are we at Tab 7? 25 Q: We're at Tab 7, yes.
2831 A: Yeah. Well, anything, I guess that 2 we felt was -- that -- that should be -- should be known 3 or maybe information that decision makers or -- or -- or 4 someone in intelligence would want to know about would be 5 put into that -- would be put on that form and sent up. 6 Q: And on August the 9th, you were on -- 7 August the 8th you were on duty from, as can be seen from 8 Exhibit P-1299, from 4:00 -- 16:00 hours to 4:00 in the 9 morning. 10 And the -- there's one incident in your 11 notebook at 16:00 hours that's also noted on Exhibit P- 12 1301 at Tab 7; is that correct? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And that's -- was someone -- can you 15 just tell us what that incident was at 22:30 hours. 16 A: Yeah. I was on -- I was on general 17 patrol. I was northbound on Army Camp Road and there was 18 a vehicle, I remember, on the -- in the former Army Base 19 and there's a road that runs parallel with Army Camp Road 20 on the Army Base. 21 Spot light was being shone on my vehicle 22 from -- from that vehicle, emanating from that vehicle 23 onto mine, as I continued on down towards the Provincial 24 Park. 25 Q: And that's the note that you make for
2841 August the 8th? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And then August the 9th, you were 4 again on duty from 16:00 hours to 14:00 hours? 5 A: To 04:00 hours. 6 Q: 04:00, excuse me. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I note that you have no 9 incidents? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And then August the 10th, the -- in 12 your notes at Tab 6, P-1299, it appears you're on-duty at 13 16:00 hours, off-duty at 04:00. 14 "Patrol all quiet." 15 But in the note at Exhibit P-1301 there's 16 a reference to an incident with respect to a rock. 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And someone advised you that a rock 19 had been thrown at their car as they drove by the Army 20 Camp? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And this is an incident -- instance 23 where it appears in your notebook, your regular police 24 notebook, P-1300, but not in your ERT book? 25 A: That's correct.
2851 Q: Then the -- as I understand it, your 2 next involvement with the Ipperwash area was on August 3 the 29th, 1995? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the notes -- your notes for the 6 period August 29th, 1995 down to September 14th, 1995 7 appear at Tab 13 and again are part of Exhibit 2005529? 8 Is that correct, those are your notes? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And I would ask that they be the next 11 exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-1302, Your Honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1302: Document Number 2005529. OPP 15 handwritten notebook entries 16 of Stan Korosec, August 29 to 17 September 16, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, 21 the font number is -- for the pagination on the database 22 is 2900256. And at the top of the page it says August 23 29th, '95. 24 Can you tell us what happened on August 25 the 29th, 1995.
2861 A: Yeah, I attended a meeting at 9:00 2 a.m. at -- at London OPP, at the district headquarters, I 3 guess it was still called back then, with Inspector 4 Carson. 5 Q: And do you recall who else was at the 6 meeting? 7 A: Oh, I believe there was many others 8 at the meeting I didn't -- I did not note. 9 Q: Do you recall if Detective Sergeant 10 Wright was there? 11 A: Yeah, he was there. I had some names 12 of some ERT -- ERT team leaders. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And what about Acting Sergeant 17 Kenneth Deane? 18 A: Yes, I believe he was there. 19 Q: And Sergeant Grant? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Inspector Hutchinson? 22 A: Yeah, I'm -- I'm recalling this from 23 scribe notes, I think, that I've -- I've seen prior to 24 this so -- 25 Q: And what --
2871 A: -- I don't recall from my own memory 2 exactly who was there. 3 Q: What do you recall, from your memory, 4 and with the use of your notes, happened on August the 5 29th? 6 A: I think we were doing -- we were 7 doing some -- some planning regarding Ipperwash and the 8 Provincial Park. There was some assignments given. I 9 have noted in my book to -- to contact Canada Customs 10 Immigration, and names and vehicles of Natives entering 11 from the United States. 12 A note here to call Charlie Bouwman about 13 Pinery Park Detachment as a possible command post. 14 Looking at locations for command post, TOC's, a number of 15 ERT members needed for -- for perimeters. 16 And that I was to -- made arrangements to 17 meet Tex here, that's Ken Deane, at eight o'clock on the 18 31st of August. 19 Q: Yes. And do you recall what that was 20 for? 21 A: I think we were just going to go down 22 there and take a look at -- at the Provincial Park, I 23 don't know if he'd ever been down there at all, to kind 24 of give him the lay of the land and look at where we 25 could -- we would set up checkpoints, about how many
2881 officers we might need to man these checkpoints, 2 depending on what happened, looking at locations for -- 3 for TOC's, communications. 4 Q: And there's a note under the 5 reference to meet Tex 08:00, Thursday, August -- 31 6 August '95. 7 "THU [I take it, that's Thursday] 08:00 8 comms check with Victrix." 9 A: Victrix. 10 Q: And that related to checking 11 communications? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And then what else? 14 A: Again, exact number of ERT, perimeter 15 roadblocks where 21 Highway and Army Camp. Army Camp 16 near -- I can't read my own writing. 17 Looking at roadblock locations basically 18 for the TOC as well. 19 Q: And were you told why this -- why you 20 were called to this meeting and what the concern was? 21 A: The concern there was -- we have 22 possible occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 23 Q: And who were you told that by? 24 A: Inspector Carson. 25 Q: And do you recall him telling you
2891 anything else about what they expected to happen and what 2 the source of their information was? 3 A: I don't recall if he got into details 4 of the intelligence or whatever information and how -- 5 how it was gathered. I think he just basically told us 6 that this may occur, and should it -- should it occur we 7 -- we have to do some planning, some contingency 8 planning, just in case. 9 Q: And you were there as the team leader 10 for Number One District ERT? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: And the -- on the top of the third 13 page there's a note. Can you read that note? Check on 14 something on the third page of -- it's the page with 15 number 3 on the top. 16 A: Oh. 17 "Check on bus, Command Post." 18 I've got: 19 "Sarnia Radio Club." 20 Q: And do you know what that refers to? 21 A: I know the Sarnia Radio Club had a -- 22 had a bus that was outfitted for -- for any major 23 incidents, whether it would be communications in there 24 and work areas or whatnot. 25 It's basically a command post on wheels
2901 that -- that was mobile. So I was asked to check on the 2 availability of that, if it was needed. 3 Q: And were you aware what -- where that 4 bus might potentially be used? 5 A: Where it might be -- 6 Q: Where -- where it was going to be 7 used if -- if -- 8 A: If -- if we had to get into a 9 situation in our planning here where we needed the 10 command post down near Ipperwash, to check on the 11 availability of it, and the suitability of it too. 12 Q: And the Command Post; which Command 13 Post? We've now -- we've heard that eventually there was 14 -- there was a Command Post at Forest and then a Tactical 15 Operations Centre at the MNR parking lot? 16 A: Correct. I -- I don't know which I - 17 - I have as Command Post but it -- it could have been 18 referring to the TOC, the Tactical Operations Centre. 19 Q: And then your next note, at least as 20 part of Exhibit P-1302, is August 31, 1995? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And can you tell us what you did on 23 August 31st, 1995? 24 A: Well, I was on duty at 7:00 in the 25 morning and about eight o'clock I was at the Forest
2911 Detachment. 2 At 9:30 I met -- I met with -- with Ken 3 Deane from TRU, went down to the, I've got recon area, 4 redeployment positions, which means went down to the 5 Provincial Park to take a look at the different access 6 points and just introduce him to -- to the area, and -- 7 and to -- to get his -- his expertise on -- on the 8 possible deployment locations, checkpoints, and where we 9 could located the Tactical Operations Centre. 10 Q: And the -- when you say that you were 11 looking for checkpoints -- to locate checkpoints, what 12 was the purpose of the -- what was your understanding, at 13 that point, on August 31st, the purpose of the 14 checkpoints? 15 A: Well, originally, from -- from 16 Inspector Carson, he wanted us to take a look at where -- 17 where access points were to the Park. And -- and 18 originally we had looked at locations like right at the 19 main gate, down by the maintenance centre, the 20 maintenance building on Matheson Drive, those type areas 21 right -- right on the property line with the Park. 22 So we -- we -- on his instructions we -- 23 we took a look at how many officers would have to be at 24 each checkpoint location with regards to that. Then we 25 also took a look at other checkpoints for uniformed
2921 members on the roadways coming up to the Park. 2 Q: And the -- I note under August 31 you 3 have: 4 "09:30 met with Ken Deane from TRU." 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: "Recon area of deployment positions 7 ERT 2412 - two (2) man cars. Uniform 8 eight (8), four (4) two (2) man cars." 9 And that refers to the number of officers 10 that you thought was necessary? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And then at this point the -- what 13 was the idea with respect to the deployment of the 14 officers? 15 A: I think we looked at locations out on 16 Army Camp Road and East -- East Ipperwash Road. 17 Q: East Parkway Drive? 18 A: East Parkway Drive, I'm sorry. 19 Q: There's a note here: 20 "014 Beach. End of Army Camp Road." 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: To -- that refers to checkpoints, 01, 23 02? Do you see that on page 3? 24 A: Yeah. I'm looking. These -- these 25 would be at the -- right adjacent to the Park. 'O1' is
2931 referred to Oscar 1, an observation position. 2 "Beach at the end of Army Camp Road. 3 The main entrance to the Park, the 4 maintenance building and access roads 5 from Matheson and Matheson at the 6 curve, the access." 7 And then talked of the fence line to the 8 beach. 9 So those were the locations for -- for the 10 ERT members that -- we were just trying to get a general 11 idea of -- because we really didn't know what the 12 scenario was going to be at where we might need officers 13 and if we do how many we need. 14 Q: And an Oscar, the 'O' for Oscar 15 refers to observation? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: So at this point these were, in 18 effect, observation teams? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then there's a reference to the 21 MNR lot as the TOC? 22 A: Correct, on East Parkway Drive. We 23 did some communication testing there on a -- on a TAC 24 channel, which is a tactical channel, and the -- the 25 communications were good. That's the note at 10-2 around
2941 Provincial Park. 2 Q: And then on page 4 there's -- what's 3 that refer to? 4 A: The TOC site, obtain -- that's a -- 5 that's a unit number for a van from Essex so I -- we're 6 starting to get into some of the equipment or vehicles we 7 might need, prisoner van. 8 Soft ID numbers, or which would be call -- 9 call numbers for -- for the ERT team, and so those -- 10 those are the numbers and the range of numbers we would 11 use for those members. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: It's not photocopied that well here. 14 Ground units would -- and those would be the uniformed 15 members would be 01 and up. 16 And then checkpoints we -- we just 17 numbered for this purpose, 1, 2, 3 and 4. 18 So it was just kind of getting the general 19 idea and putting -- putting some things in place to form 20 a plan right now. 21 Q: Okay. Excuse me for a moment. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And do you recall, did you meet with
2951 ERT team members at Pinery Park? Do you recall that day, 2 on August 31st? 3 A: Meet with ERT team members? 4 Q: Yes. I think Constable Dougan 5 indicated that he met -- there was a -- with you on 6 August the 31st. 7 A: I -- well, yeah. We were -- we were 8 performing -- they were -- we were on -- on duty there 9 for that -- for that period of time, so I would have been 10 staying with him at the -- at the Pinery. 11 And Constable Dougan, he was there during 12 that time period so I would have seen him there as I got 13 back to -- back to Pinery. 14 Q: And did you stay that night, on 15 August 31st, at the Pinery? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Oh. And the -- then your next entry 18 is for the next day, September the 1st, briefing at 19 London District Headquarters. 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And in this period of time where was 22 your home, at -- in Sombra? Where were you living? 23 A: Where was I living or where was I 24 working out of? 25 Q: Where you were working out of? How
2961 far away -- I'm just trying to understand. You stayed 2 over night, that's because you were living somewhere 3 else, is that -- 4 A: No, I lived in the area. We just 5 wanted all the -- all the -- the arrangements were made, 6 and the instructions were that all the ERT members who 7 are working all stay together at -- at the Pinery -- 8 Q: Oh, I see. 9 A: -- working shifts. So everybody's 10 available, close by, in case. 11 Q: Okay. And on September the 1st, what 12 happened? 13 A: I was at London District Headquarters 14 again for a briefing by Inspector Carson. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: I -- I -- there was quite a few 17 people at the meeting. From -- from my notebook, what I 18 -- what I noted and knowing that there were minutes 19 probably being taken, anyway I have noted the objective 20 was to contain and negotiate a peaceful resolution. And 21 again, we're talking about if the -- if the Park had been 22 occupied. 23 And I have in my notes that -- and I wrote 24 it down step by step here: 25 "If -- if Natives enter, MNR ask them
2971 to leave. And if no, the OPP ask them 2 to leave. If no, MNR obtain 3 injunction, could take twenty-four (24) 4 hours. 5 And then I have: 6 "Then contain, keep people out. Follow 7 the organizational chart." 8 And then: 9 "Define my role, what preparations I've 10 made, uniforms. You have arrest teams 11 of male, female. Road sergeant if 12 required. 13 I have names of Rick Darius (phonetic) in 14 Essex, Steve McDonald down in Strathroy. 15 Have noted: 16 "The Provincial Park closes 18:00 hours 17 Labour Day. Get elevation views for 18 TRU." 19 Which I think refers to a topographical 20 map. 21 Q: Topographical maps, yes. 22 A: Yes. 23 "List of operational administrative and 24 personal items needed. Names of the 25 team leaders, assistants, home phone
2981 numbers, pager numbers. Twelve (12) 2 hour shifts [written down here]. Port- 3 a-johns." 4 And I have noted: 5 "Prepare ERT operational plan with 6 other ERT leaders and present it to 7 Inspector Carson." 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: And I have: 10 "At 17:30 I'm back at the Pinery 11 bunkhouse." 12 Some notes, make some phone calls. 13 "At 20:00 hours attended MNR wardens' 14 briefing at Pinery Park. At 20:30 I 15 briefed Sergeant Graham and P/C Jacklin 16 on the operational plan for Ipperwash." 17 I've got 21:30 as off duty. 18 Q: And as a result of -- what was your 19 understanding on September 1st of the operational plan 20 for Ipperwash? 21 A: Well I was given -- I was tasked with 22 some -- some details and some duties to -- to look after 23 in relation to what ERT would do. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Given the parameter set out by
2991 Inspector Carson about, you know, containment and -- and 2 negotiating a peaceful resolution. Defining roles, what 3 my role would be should this plan be implemented. 4 And I think at that time I met with the 5 other ERT leaders who would be there because -- and Rob 6 Graham with Dennis, in the plan, assume my role as the 7 Number One District ERT leader because I no longer, in 8 this plan, was -- was an ERT leader, and I had different 9 roles and responsibilities in this plan. 10 And so with the ERT leaders we refine what 11 Ken Deane and I had talked about as far as checkpoint 12 locations. Those other ERT leaders had all been there 13 during that summer so they knew the area. And they 14 worked four (4) days in and then it was eight (8) days 15 out, as we rotated between the different ERT teams. 16 So got their input and presented an ERT 17 operational plan for Inspector Carson so -- 18 Q: And that was on September 1st as 19 well? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the -- if I could take you to Tab 22 14, it's a copy of Inquiry Document 3000574, Exhibit P- 23 421. 24 And this is a copy of the notes that have 25 been identified -- the minutes that have been identified
3001 as the notes of the meeting on September the 1st. 2 And have you seen those before, other than 3 preparing for this Inquiry? 4 A: Other than preparing for this, no. 5 Q: No? And the -- I note your name's on 6 the list along with a large number of officers. There 7 was a large number of people at the planning meeting? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And the -- what was your 10 understanding if the Park -- what was your understanding 11 on September 1st of the role of the ERT team members if 12 people entered the Park? 13 A: Our role was to make sure that the 14 area was contained and try and identify -- maintain a 15 presence there is -- for the people who live down in that 16 area too, to ensure them that, you know, that the police 17 were around. 18 To identify vehicles. Inspector Carson 19 wanted the people in vehicles who were coming to the 20 scene to be identified. 21 Q: And what about the Park? What was 22 your -- if people entered the Park, what was -- what were 23 the ERT team members to do with respect to the Park? 24 A: Oh, well, we were not to prevent them 25 from entering the Park. I think in my -- in my first set
3011 of notes here, it was almost a step-by-step, that we were 2 -- we were just to ask them to leave. MNR were suppose - 3 - first -- the first ones, depending on the situation of 4 course, to ask them to leave and -- and we would ask them 5 to leave but we were not to prevent them physically from 6 entering the Park. 7 Q: And what were you to do? Were you to 8 leave the Park, stay in the Park, do what? 9 A: I have to look at the -- I -- I... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I know it's only lawyers ask these 14 questions from ten (10) years ago, but if you could turn 15 -- or eleven (11) years ago, if you could turn to the 16 last page. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And there's a reference: 21 "John does not want to be in a verbal 22 barrage when they are sitting in there. 23 You can cohabitate if you want without 24 any major problems; that would be fine. 25 The more in the face you are the less
3021 risk you are. If the people inside the 2 Park want to leave, that's fine." 3 Does that assist? 4 A: Let me just read it again. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yeah, I guess from his explanation 9 there, he's leaving some -- some room here for, you know, 10 to -- to avoid confrontation, I mean: 11 "You can cohabitate if you want without 12 any major problems; that would be 13 fine." 14 Q: And to be fair, the evidence of 15 Inspector Carson was that if there was a takeover then he 16 expected the officers to remain in the Park with the 17 occupiers; is that your understanding? 18 A: I -- I won't doubt that. 19 Q: But you can't -- 20 A: I just -- 21 Q: You don't remember today? 22 A: Not specifically, no, sir. 23 Q: And the reference, if you look back 24 at page 1 of Exhibit P-421, there's the objective that 25 you've indicated, that you had in the notes. And, in the
3031 third paragraph, refers to the steps that you've referred 2 us to: 3 "The MNR asked people to leave. OPP 4 asked the people to tell them they're 5 trespassing and then if people don't 6 leave then MNR will issue a court 7 injunction." 8 Then it says: 9 "The problem is to keep the people out 10 rather than to try to get them out." 11 And do you know -- do you have any 12 recollection today what that was referring to, if you go 13 on the next paragraph? 14 A: You know, I don't -- I don't know 15 what is referred to to keep the people out, whether it's 16 occupiers or -- or others from -- from coming into the 17 Park. 18 Q: And then on page 2 -- or at the 19 bottom of the page 1: 20 "Natives in the Military Base do have 21 weapons. There has never been any 22 situation where the OPP have been 23 challenged with a firearm. No 24 confrontation with any Native during 25 the recent fatal MVA motor vehicle
3041 accident at Ipperwash. The outsiders 2 are the concern." 3 Do you recall being told that by Inspector 4 Carson at the meeting or that being discussed? 5 A: I don't recall it but it's fair to 6 say that I have no doubt that he said that. 7 Q: And there's a reference to you, the 8 third paragraph from the bottom: 9 "All the ERT teams fall under Korosec. 10 The team leaders can communicate with 11 each other but Wright, Carson have to 12 know what is going on. All personnel 13 under the team leaders should be 14 advising their team leaders with any 15 information or suggestions." 16 And is part of the plan you were going to 17 be in charge of the ERT teams? 18 A: That's correct. It was an 19 organizational chart that was -- was done up should this 20 plan have to -- have to go into effect. And each unit 21 leader had certain roles and responsibilities that were - 22 - were approved by Inspector Carson. 23 Q: And then on page 3 there's a 24 reference: 25 "Uniformed members, Korosec, and the
3051 ERT leaders will be in charge of these 2 uniformed members." 3 So that the uniformed members fell under 4 the care of yourself and the other ERT team leaders? 5 A: For -- for different -- for different 6 duties or different responsibilities, I guess. I had the 7 more administrative role with -- with the ERT teams. 8 The ERT leaders were more, since there was 9 two (2) ERT teams working at a time, there -- there could 10 be four (4) ERT lead -- oh, two (2) leaders and two (2) 11 assistants on the ground as we say, they would be more in 12 charge of -- of maybe moving personnel around or what was 13 happening on the ground. 14 My duties were -- were somewhat different, 15 non-operational, in this plan. 16 Q: And then there's a reference: 17 "Suggestion passive situation. Korosec 18 could look after that. Serious 19 situation another sergeant could look 20 after this problem." 21 Does that -- do you have any recollection 22 today what that refers to? 23 A: I'm not -- I'm not sure. 24 Q: Okay. Then on the next page, in the 25 fifth paragraph down, if the:
3061 "If the ERT goes in, and they take the 2 place, we will move at least two (2) 3 ERT team units inside the perimeter of 4 the Park. Stan and TRU will come up 5 with this part of the operational plan. 6 The area around the Park will be 7 cordoned off with ERT as well as road 8 blocks by uniform. Stan will be the 9 overall person in charge of ERT. 10 There will be two (2) ERT sergeants, 11 one (1) inside the Park and one (1) 12 outside the Park. 13 The serging -- Sergeant outside of the 14 Park could also look after the uniform 15 members outside the Park. 16 It's going to be a tough job. With 17 command trailer you would be able to 18 communicate with the trailer. 19 Communications should not be a 20 problem." 21 And so that at this point in time, does 22 this assist you in -- it appears that the plan was to 23 have one (1) ERT team inside the Park and one (1) ERT 24 team outside of the Park? 25 A: I don't know if this is going to --
3071 if this refers to a -- this refers to after an injunction 2 is sought or granted. 3 Q: It was the evidence of Inspector 4 Carson that it was during the period of time before an 5 injunction -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- if there was an occupation. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Okay. We -- we never did come up 12 with, as I recall, anyway, any operational plan specific 13 to going into the Park. 14 Q: But aft -- if there was an 15 occupation? 16 A: According to what -- if ERT goes in 17 and they take the place we will move at least two (2) TRU 18 teams and it says we'll come up with an operational 19 plan. 20 We never did come up with any operational 21 plan to address this. 22 Q: To go into the Park? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: To take back the Park? 25 A: Correct.
3081 Q: Oh, I see what you mean. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And the -- there's a reference to -- 4 the bottom of the page, the... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: "The Monday evening at 6:00 p.m. all 9 campers have to leave the Park. To 10 leave as the Park completely closes. 11 This is expected when this happens. 12 Number 1 District ERT is in there now 13 and they are not leaving until 14 Tuesday." 15 And that referred to the officers that you 16 had on patrol in the Park from your ERT team? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And do you re -- the -- on the next 19 page, there's -- fifth page, the -- there's a -- there -- 20 in the first full paragraph: 21 "Logistics, two (2) white board 22 required for ERT by Korosec, one (1) 23 for ground at Park and one (1) at 24 Forest Detachment. Logistics requires 25 a duty roster from Korosec when
3091 officers are being brought in the 2 garage of Forest Detachment will be 3 used as a briefing centre. 4 No one should assume that this incident 5 will occur a certain way. There may be 6 many variables that could change the 7 situation. There's no hurry to contain 8 the Park when and if the Natives take 9 over the Park. 10 All our members will be reporting to 11 Forest Detachment in the beginning for 12 a briefing. Not the incident site." 13 And then there's a reference to ERT and 14 TRU down below. 15 "[hyphen] -STAN: Inner perimeter 16 requires twenty-four (24) men, two (2) 17 teams. Map will be attached with the 18 location and uniform and equipment 19 issues will be the grey tactical 20 issues, long guns to ERT in the trunk. 21 We're going to be on the outside of the 22 fence because if for some reason we are 23 not trapped -- some reasons we're not 24 trapped inside, John's perception is 25 the main emergency concern is from the
3101 camp. Discussion occurred and will be 2 discussed further later. Gate at 3 maintenance yard will be open." 4 And then I take it that's a reference to 5 something that you brought up at the meeting? 6 Do you recall that, sir? 7 A: About the gate -- 8 Q: No. About -- 9 A: -- or ERT? 10 Q: -- Stan inner perimeter requires -- 11 A: Oh. Yeah I was -- I was probably 12 updating the Inspector on part of our operational plan. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: That I got together with the ERT team 15 members. 16 Q: "JOHN: When we approach the Natives 17 to leave we always stay in their face." 18 What did you understand that to mean? 19 Do you recall him saying that? 20 A: Oh. I don't recall him saying that. 21 I'm trying to interpret what he -- what he was saying. 22 And it may have been just to maintain a presence with 23 them. 24 Q: And then the -- the last page there's 25 a reference again and I read this before, but:
3111 "John does not want to be in a verbal 2 barrage when they're sitting there. You 3 could cohabitate if you want without any 4 major problems, that would be fine. 5 The more in the face you are, the less 6 risk you are. If the people inside the 7 Park want to leave, that's fine." 8 And do you recall John Carson saying that? 9 A: I don't recall him saying that. 10 Q: And the reference to 'the more in the 11 face you are, the less risk you are' do you have any 12 understanding of what was being referred to? 13 A: I don't know what he -- I don't know 14 what he meant by that. 15 Q: And beside you, there's a copy of 16 Exhibit P-424 which we're told is Project Maple -- was 17 Project Maple as it was developed. 18 And the -- if you turn to the first page -- 19 I take it -- did you receive a copy of Project Maple. I 20 can't remember if you were on the list, Sergeant Korosec. 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: You did not? 23 A: No. 24 Q: But are you -- have you seen this 25 document before?
3121 A: In preparation for this and -- and 2 certainly some -- some sections that I prepared, yes. 3 Q: And the objective is noted to' contain 4 and negotiate a peaceful solu -- resolution,' that's what 5 you had noted in your notes? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And then there's a -- a chart, an 8 organizational chart, that was the chart that was -- was 9 that chart discussed during the planning? 10 A: It was presented at some point in our 11 planning. 12 Q: And you're noted under ERT, Sergeant 13 Korosec? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And along with Sergeant Skinner under 16 TRU as emergency services? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And then what part of the plan did you 19 help prepare? Now that -- 20 A: I believe it's under the ERT/TRU tab. 21 Q: Okay. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And the -- under the 23 ERT/TRU tab, Commissioner, there's a page and I think we 24 went through this before, but I've forgotten. 25 The next page after the tab that says
3131 'Emergency Response Team's Operational Plan', the next 2 page that says "Administration and Support"; that's in the 3 wrong place. 4 When the photocopying at some point was 5 done, that page should actually be -- the -- after the 6 'TRU Operational Plan' page which is the last page before 7 the heading, Response Plan Negotiations. 8 So can you tell us the pages that refer to 9 the ERT team with the -- the first page, the page 10 entitled, Channel Tactical, and then the page that has on 11 the top, "Prisoner Van;" is that correct? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And the... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: ...ERT units, the role that you were 18 to play is on the -- on the page: 19 "Prisoner Van Role, Emergency Service 20 ERT, Sergeant S. F. Korosec." 21 That's you? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And your role was to facilitate the 24 administration and administrative and operational 25 requirements of the ERT's present?
3141 A: Yes. 2 Q: And secondly: 3 "To assess and acquire additional 4 personnel and/or equipment as the need 5 arises?" 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Third: 8 "Update and report to the CIT commander, 9 or his assistant, all activity taking 10 place at the scene?" 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And: 13 "Liaise with other Unit Commanders as 14 required?" 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And the other Unit Commanders were the 17 heads of other parts of the plan, the TRU team? 18 A: The logistics people, the 19 administrators, file coordinators. 20 Q: And the -- you're one (1) of -- you're 21 job was to report activity to the Incident Commander, 22 which was Inspector Carson or his assistant? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And his assistant, once the incident 25 began, was Sergeant Wright?
3151 A: Correct. 2 Q: And I note that the checkpoints, at 3 least as noted in the plan, were to be -- 'A' was to be at 4 East Parkway at MNR parking lot, the TOC location? 5 You see the Tab that says, ERT Team? 6 A: I got it, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And then East Parkway at 8 Ravenswood Road? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And I think that's also called 11 Ipperwash Road. 'C' was to be Army Camp Road, north of 12 trailer park? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And then 'D', Army Camp Road at the 15 fifty (50) kilometre zone? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And the number of ERT team members 18 available for the plan was to be fifty-eight (58); is 19 that...? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: That's how many were available. 24 Q: And at -- just before "Investigation," 25 the tab that says "Investigation," there is a number --
3161 there are a number of maps. And the fourth map from the 2 tab, "Investigation," is headed, "Map 4, Kettle Point and 3 Ipperwash," and it shows the location of four (4) 4 checkpoints. 5 A: The fourth one from the tab? 6 Q: Yes. The fourth -- excuse me, the 7 fifth page. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And the location of -- do you recall 13 if the location of the checkpoints were on -- did you 14 prepare this map? 15 A: No, sir, I did not. 16 Q: And the map that's referred to in the 17 part of the plan that you prepared, it says, "Map 18 attached," do you have -- do you know what that: 19 "ERT units on the perimeter will be 20 referred to as Oscar positions. See 21 attached map." 22 Do you recall today what that map was? 23 A: No, I don't. I don't know what 24 happened to it. 25 Q: And then:
3171 "I note that the TOC will be manned by 2 an ERT leader and referred to as Lima 2 3 and responsible for all units on the 4 ground." 5 So Lima 2 was located at the Tactical 6 Operations Centre in the MNR parking lot? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And a team leader will also be 9 stationed at the Command Post and will be referred to as 10 Lima 1? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And that was again a sergeant -- a 13 sergeant -- an ERT sergeant? 14 A: Correct. That was -- that was a 15 standard operating procedure for -- for ERT, the ERT 16 leader was -- for communication purposes, anyway, was 17 always referred to as Lima 1 or leader, so it's Lima 1 and 18 the assistant was always referred to as Lima 2. 19 Q: And so the leader would be Lima 1 at 20 the command post and Lima 2 was at the tactical operations 21 centre? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And then if I could take you back to 24 Tab 13, exhibit P-1302, and take you to the notes on 25 September the 2nd which appear to be a little different
3181 than the other notes in the segment of the notes. 2 And it actually has a different Inquiry 3 Document Number, 2005264. It may at some point this page 4 -- the -- it was determined this page was missing and it 5 was inserted into this group of... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I think we did this. There was a page 10 missing. Do you have page 7 in your original notebook or 11 the page 4, September the 2nd? 12 A: Yes, I do. 13 Q: And is it the same as the one that's 14 Inquiry Document 2005264? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: It's -- it's a copy of my notes. 19 Q: But reduced. 20 A: It's reduced, yes. 21 Q: Okay. But it's the same as in your -- 22 your book? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Yeah, what we did, apparently, in the 25 -- the copy 2005529 this page was missing and it was found
3191 as part of 2005264. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it was put 3 in. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And so it was put in. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And can you tell us what you did on 8 September the 2nd, 1995. 9 A: I was on duty at 12:30. I checked out 10 the TOC with the district technologist, Robson. I forget 11 his first name, it might have been Kevin, about hydro to 12 the site. 13 He said he would contact Don Matheson. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Regarding a plug in for -- for that. 19 Some -- some electrical thing. 20 "At 13:10, I was requested to attend at 21 the -- at the Provincial Park regarding 22 a verbal confrontation between OPP and I 23 got Gransden and Dougan, Natives. 24 [I arrived at] 13:20 and Gransden 25 advised that they were on Matheson
3201 Drive, checking out a vehicle. Then 2 they observed the fin mobile stuck in 3 the road with Natives drinking beer. 4 They approached but had put the beer 5 away. 6 Dudley George was present, yelling and 7 swearing. Soon after, another vehicle 8 and an ATV attended so Dougan and 9 Gransden backed off." 10 Q: And then on the next page? 11 A: "At 13:40 I spoke with P/C Dew, 12 [Constable Dew,] and he stated that 13 Provincial Constable Gast spoke with 14 Dudley who advised that people in from 15 Saskatchewan, Michigan and Minnesota and 16 Saugeen reserve. 17 [In brackets have] (Saskatchewan plate 18 was observed by Dew on Army Camp). 19 Definitely taking the Park as soon as 20 campers leave. They have cell keys for 21 Military Base and plan to lock up people 22 trespassing on Army Camp and tow any 23 vehicles. 24 Dew stated today they are harassing 25 people who are on the beach on the Park
3211 side." 2 Q: And do you have any independent 3 recollection of what happened on September the 2nd other 4 than what's in your note? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: And at this point in time on September 7 the 2nd, 1995, you've got in your notes, Dudley -- the 8 name Dudley George. 9 Did you know Dudley George on September 10 2nd, 1995? 11 A: I knew who he was, yes. 12 Q: And how did you know who he was? 13 A: I spent from '85 to '93 at -- 14 Q: Oh, you knew him from your time in 15 Forest? 16 A: That's correct, yes. 17 Q: And you'd come to know him when you 18 lived in Forest? I'd forgotten, I'm sorry. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: But that's how you knew Dudley George? 21 A: Yeah, from my time policing in the 22 Forest Detachment, yes. 23 Q: And what if any were your instructions 24 to the ERT team meters -- members with respect to policing 25 at this period of time in the Provincial Park and Matheson
3221 Drive? 2 A: Well, certainly they were -- they were 3 told they were going to do general policing duties down 4 there, do what they would normally do while on patrol 5 anywhere else. They were certainly aware of the situation 6 because most of them had been there prior to -- to me 7 getting there when I was -- I was -- was on vacation. 8 They knew -- they knew the situation so 9 they were there to perform general policing duties, you 10 know, as we call "showing the doors" to the campers and 11 the people who lived around there that the police were -- 12 were in the area and just to do -- do their job. 13 Q: Okay. And on your notes at -- we've 14 marked it in the -- in the -- the copy, the photocopy as 15 page 8, at 13:50 there's -- an entry that I can't frankly 16 read. 17 A: "Activated -- at 13:50 activated 18 another ERT unit [and that was] Whelan 19 and Japp and instructed all -- all of 20 them to -- to stay off of Matheson 21 Drive." 22 Q: And why was that, sir? 23 A: Well, there had been a confrontation a 24 half hour earlier with -- with Dougan and Gransden down 25 there. I didn't want things to escalate at all. I -- I
3231 wanted to ensure that we were not the cause of -- of 2 anything escalating and -- and anything getting out of 3 hand. 4 I thought what Gransden and Dougan, the 5 actions that they took was what I expected. It was -- in 6 fact I -- I think I probably -- I don't know if I did but 7 I probably would have told them that, that that was a good 8 thing what they had done. 9 Q: By leaving when -- avoiding a 10 confrontation? 11 A: That's right. I mean there was -- so 12 there was some yelling and swearing and drinking beer 13 going on at the end of the day; nothing escalated beyond 14 that point and I was -- I was very happy with -- with the 15 actions that -- that they took. 16 Q: Then at 14:50 hours there's a note? 17 A: Yes: "I spoke with Inspector Carson 18 and just advised him of -- of the 19 situation, [what -- what had gone on to- 20 date]." 21 Staff Sergeant Bouwman I have as present 22 also. This must have been at the Forest Detachment. 23 "I met with Staff Sergeant Bill Dennis. 24 I requested a -- a quantity of flex 25 cuffs."
3241 Those are just flexible handcuffs, not the 2 -- the metal type. 3 Q: They're plastic? 4 A: Yes, that type of material. 5 "Advised him that a minimum of twelve 6 (12) uniforms required for roadblocks 7 and prisoner van. Prepared a list of 8 duties for uniformed officers manning 9 the roadblocks. Prepared list of 10 roadblock locations and reference names 11 for P/C Grant to include in the package. 12 Met with Staff Sergeant Bouwman." 13 Q: And what was this preparation for? 14 A: I think this was probably -- I don't 15 recall but it might have been some -- some tidying up of 16 the -- of the operational plan that we were doing at the 17 time. 18 Q: Okay. Then at 16:00 hours? 19 A: I left -- I was at -- I left the 20 Forest Detachment. And from the day shift, from Gransden 21 and Dougan, they reported to me as very quiet after the 22 incident at 13:00 hours or so. 23 Q: Okay. Then at the top of the next 24 page? 25 A: "The afternoon shift was Myers and
3251 Dellemonache. They said it was very 2 quiet. And at 11:30 the night shift 3 reported into me that it was Myers and 4 Jacklin." 5 Q: And -- 6 A: I was off duty at -- at 13:00 but that 7 should be 01:00. 8 Q: Okay. And then on September the 5th 9 you're back on -- I mean September -- 10 A: 3rd. 11 Q: -- the 3rd, 1995, you're back on duty 12 at 12:00 hours. 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And can you tell us what happened -- 15 do you have any recollection -- independent recollection 16 of September the 3rd? 17 A: Without looking at my notes, no. 18 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what you 19 did on September the 3rd? 20 A: I was on duty at noon. At 12:30 I was 21 at the Forest Detachment. 22 "Prepare operational sheets re Ipperwash 23 plan." 24 I don't know what that refers to. Maybe 25 just again, some more -- we were tidying up.
3261 "14:00 I was back at the Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park. At 14:10 I observed 3 male Native end of Matheson at the beach 4 get out of the fin mobile. And asked 5 several members of the public to move 6 back into the Park area of Matheson 7 Drive. 8 Noted there was no problems. P/C Gast 9 present and was speaking with him." 10 I take it that was whoever was the Native 11 male -- the male Native down there. 12 Q: Yes? And the fin mobile, can you 13 describe it for us? 14 A: That was a vehicle that was modified. 15 You can call it the -- I don't know who gave them the 16 names, but it was modified -- there was these big fins on 17 the back like you can see on maybe some older cars. It's 18 referred to the fin mobile or the bat mobile. There was 19 several officers. 20 So when this incident occurred down there, 21 I -- I could see that Constable Gast was speaking with him 22 and it looked like the situation had resolved itself or he 23 -- he helped resolve it. 24 I didn't think any further action on my 25 part was required, that everything was calm and -- and
3271 there was no confrontations. 2 Q: Did you recognize the person who was 3 on the beach? 4 A: I -- I don't have it noted and I don't 5 recall. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, I 7 would like to stop for the day around five o'clock. So 8 just keep that in mind. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: The -- then what happened next after 13 this? 14 A: I have 15:30 I'm back at the -- at the 15 bunkhouse which was the Pinery Park. Off duty. And then 16 eight o'clock I'm back on duty again. 17 "And at 21:50 I met Constables Parks and 18 Dellemonache at Ipperwash Park down by 19 the boat launch. He advised me Natives 20 are piling up pallets at the end of 21 Matheson at the beach. 22 I activated the night shift patrol." 23 Probably a little bit earlier. I don't 24 recall what time they were suppose to start but I must of 25 called back to them to have them come out a little bit
3281 earlier. 2 Q: And do you have any independent 3 recollection of this without the use of your notes? 4 A: Well I -- I know that eventually the 5 pallets turn into a -- into a bonfire that evening. I can 6 recall that. 7 And that nothing significant occurred that 8 night with respect to this bonfire. 9 Q: Okay. So the bonfire took place -- it 10 was a large bonfire but nothing significant happened? 11 A: That's correct. We did -- we didn't 12 take any action. Again we had Constable Dew down there 13 and -- there -- there was no need for us to go down there 14 and do anything if everything -- if everything was fine. 15 Sometimes -- sometimes a uniform presence 16 can -- can cause more problems than solve it and we 17 certainly didn't want that to happen. So I -- I pretty 18 well kept -- kept our people back and there was no need 19 for us to be down there and -- and reports I got from 20 Constable Dew that everything was fine, and I was happy 21 with that. 22 Q: Okay. And then there's a reference 23 you spoke at 22:17 with Inspector Carson? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And can you tell us what that was
3291 about? 2 A: I -- I spoke with him on -- on what 3 was going on and: 4 "He instructed to speak with the 5 Natives re. warn them of the fire and 6 the hazards associated with -- with it. 7 If it gets out of hand, the fire 8 department will douse it. 9 At 22:25, I called George Speck at 10 Grand Bend and he said he would come 11 down and attend. Constable Parks 12 reported approximately twenty-five (25) 13 Natives at the lake and approximately 14 twenty-five (25) campers were on the -- 15 on the Park side. 16 At 22:50, I spoke with Detective 17 Constable Dew at the main gate. He 18 advised there were approximately fifty 19 (50) Natives including children. 20 I attended near the area with Constable 21 Speck. The music was not loud. The 22 fire and the smoke was blowing away in 23 some strong winds. 24 [I have noted] playing ceremonial 25 music.
3301 P/C Gast advised that Terry George had 2 spoke to some campers and explained to 3 them Native culture and issues. 4 Speck and I do not feel necessary to 5 speak to the Natives." 6 Q: And were you in plainclothes or in a 7 uniform -- 8 A: No, I was in uniform. 9 Q: Okay. But you -- so you didn't go 10 down to the beach? 11 A: No, we -- I think -- I'm trying to 12 recall, we were inside the Park but well back so that -- 13 so we just observed what was going on. 14 Q: So Constable Gast had said -- 15 indicated, advised the -- that Terry George had explained 16 to the campers the cultural significance of the fire and 17 what was happening? 18 A: Yeah, I had noted Native culture and 19 issues, yes. 20 Q: Then at 23:35, you spoke to Inspector 21 Carson? 22 A: Yes, I updated him at 23:35. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
3311 Q: Yes. 2 A: "Had one (1) car parked at the boat 3 launch parking lot." 4 Q: And then was there anything of 5 significance that happened after that? 6 A: "We received -- checked the area at 7 00:45, so only one (1) camper -- only 8 one (1) camper watching. The number of 9 Natives decreased. The music wasn't 10 loud. 11 I had the occasion -- [I noted] they 12 occasionally shone spotlight into Park. 13 1:15, P/C Jacklin advises most of 14 Natives have left. 15 1:25, Jacklin advises all have left now 16 and myself, Parks and Dellemonache went 17 back to the bunkhouse and at two 18 o'clock we were off duty." 19 Q: That -- we're now going to go to 20 September 4th. This is probably an appropriate time to 21 stop for the day. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. Stop for the day now and come back tomorrow 24 morning at nine o'clock. Thank you. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you,
3321 Commissioner. 2 3 (WITNESS RETIRES) 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday April the 6th at 9:00 7 a.m. 8 9 --- Upon adjourning at 5:00 p.m. 10 11 12 13 14 Certified Correct, 15 16 17 18 _________________ 19 Carol Geehan, Ms. 20 21 22 23 24 25