11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 5th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 20 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 21 Colleen Johnson ) 22 23 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 24 Walter Myrka ) (np) 25 Susan Freeborn )
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 Megan Mackey ) 16 17 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 18 Craig Mills ) (np) 19 20 David Roebuck ) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Affirmed 6 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 8 7 8 Discussion 163 9 10 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 186 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 197 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 200 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Susan Freeborn 206 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 226 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. David Roebuck 266 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 290 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-320 Bell telephone account number 4 519-652-5103 September 16/'95 pages 5 3 to 6 listing calls from 08/18/'95 6 to 09/15/'95 82 7 P-321 Document 1001772, 95-PFD-130, 8 12 Avenue 96, 3 Silver casings 9 turned over to Investigator Jim 10 Kennedy by Layton Elijah. 133 11 P-322 Document 1008977 e-mail November 24/'95 12 01:18 p.m., to Peter Sturdy from Les 13 Kobayasai, MNR-Parks & Recreation re: 14 Ipperwash Issue Meeting November 24/'95 158 15 P-323 Robert Isaac Interview with Mr. and 16 Mrs. Goldi video transcript 289 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Ms. Vella. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. The next witness for the Commission is 10 Layton Elijah. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Elijah, 12 how are you this morning, sir? 13 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Good morning. (NATIVE 14 LANGUAGE SPOKEN) 15 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 16 the Bible, affirm, or use an alternate oath, sir? 17 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Affirm. 18 THE REGISTRAR: You have the eagle 19 feather there? 20 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Yes, I do. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. Could you 22 state your name in full for us, please? 23 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Layton Harley Elijah. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 25
81 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Affirmed: 2 3 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Mr. Elijah, I understand that you 5 were born on August the 21st, 1950? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: And your current residence is the 8 Oneida of the Thames First Nation Territory? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: I understand that you were formerly a 11 resident at the lands that were known as Camp Ipperwash 12 and Ipperwash Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when did you commence your 15 residence there? 16 A: On September the 8th, 1995 until 17 September 15th, 2004. 18 Q: Where did you stay on that -- on that 19 territory? 20 A: Inside the Park. 21 Q: Do you remember what -- what building 22 you stayed at? 23 A: I think it was called the implement 24 shed or -- 25 Q: The maintenance shed?
91 A: The maintenance shed. 2 Q: Okay. I understand that you were 3 also -- you are a member of the Oneida of the Thames? 4 A: Yes, I am. 5 Q: And does your nation have any sister 6 nations? 7 A: Yes, we do. 8 Q: How many? 9 A: We have six (6) -- five (5) others. 10 Q: All right. And I understand that 11 it's part of a confederacy? 12 A: Yes, Iroquois Confederacy. 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: The Iroquois Confederacy. 15 Q: Thank you. What is Oneida's 16 relationship with the other five (5) nations within this 17 confederacy? 18 A: We are the younger brother to the 19 Mohawk. 20 Q: And what does that mean, "the younger 21 brother" to the Mohawk nation? 22 A: They're the one that established this 23 and founded this and we're the ones -- first ones that 24 come on board and recognized it and went along with them. 25 Q: All right. So in other words, the
101 Mohawk Nation established the concept of a confederacy 2 and your First Nation joined it? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And to your understanding does the 5 Mohawk Nation have a society called a Warrior Society? 6 A: It does. 7 Q: Can you just briefly describe your 8 understanding of the function of that Society, if you're 9 aware of that? 10 A: To my knowledge the Warrior Society 11 was founded in the late '80's and it was due to the way 12 they were being treated on their homelands and they 13 wanted to stand up and speak back. 14 And it was a bunch of young men and women 15 that got together and just more or less put their foot 16 down and trying to change the course of time for their 17 people. 18 Q: When you say "their people," are you 19 referring to the Mohawk people? 20 A: To the Mohawk people. 21 Q: Does this Warrior Society have any 22 formal relationship with the Oneida Nation? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Does the Oneida Nation have its own 25 association with similar objectives?
111 A: Similar? 2 Q: Okay. And what organization is that? 3 A: No. I mean, what did you mean by 4 "similar"? 5 Q: An association of men and women who 6 have similar objectives to the ones that you attributed 7 to the Mohawk Warrior Society? 8 A: Not really. No, I -- I just think 9 everybody's like that. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Nothing recognized anyway. 12 Q: I understand that -- we've heard some 13 evidence at least that the Oneida Nation has an 14 association called the Peacekeepers? 15 A: Yes, we do. 16 Q: Are you a member of the Peacekeepers? 17 A: Yes, I am. 18 Q: And how long have you been a member 19 of the Peacekeepers? 20 A: Since it's -- since it's founding. 21 Q: When was it founded? 22 A: In 1984. 23 Q: Can you describe generally why it was 24 founded and what the general objectives of the 25 Peacekeepers is?
121 A: Our people were taken off the reserve 2 by OPP in Beaton and let go and made to walk back all 3 kinds of weather and even if they were just drinking. 4 They would be taken off, let go, not nice and made it 5 back home and they used to complain and complain and 6 complain. 7 Finally they took it into the Long House 8 and asked if some people could take care of this and try 9 and stop it. Our treatment -- we were being treated 10 unfairly. 11 Q: And how does one become a Peacekeeper 12 at Oneida? 13 A: I don't really know. 14 Q: Okay. How did you become a member? 15 A: I just asked. 16 Q: Who did you ask? 17 A: The council. 18 Q: The council at the Long House? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you describe the general 21 organizational structure of Oneida and in particular the 22 roles and composition of Oneida's Long House? 23 A: It's composed of nine (9) chiefs, 24 nine (9) clan mothers, there's faith keepers and the 25 people.
131 Q: And the? 2 A: The people. 3 Q: The people, okay. Can you describe 4 the function of the -- the nine (9) clan mothers and how 5 that the clan component functions in the society? 6 A: If there's any problems or anything 7 like that, it first goes to the clan mothers to see if 8 they can sort it out because they have such high respect 9 in the community that everybody listens to the women, 10 especially the clan mothers. 11 And if she can't handle it, she will tell 12 her chief. And if her chief sees that it needs to go 13 farther, then it goes to the secretary and the secretary 14 calls together the rest of the chiefs. 15 Q: All right. And then that's when the 16 Council is called together? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what are the clans that comprise 19 the Oneida? 20 A: There's the Bear Clan, the Turtle 21 Clan and the Wolf Clan. 22 Q: And what clan do you belong to? 23 A: The Wolf. 24 Q: And what distinguishes your clan from 25 the Bear and Turtle clans, in terms of functions within
141 the Oneida society? 2 A: We hold all the -- all the roles of 3 security, guidance, steering, and just holding it 4 together. 5 Q: Now, going back to your own role as a 6 peacekeeper, first of all, is this something that you 7 would have consulted with your clan mother concerning; 8 that is, being appointed as a peacekeeper? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then it goes up to the Council 11 for approval? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you tell me what are your main -- 14 what have been your main roles within the Oneida 15 territory as a peacekeeper? 16 A: Well, I -- I'm in charge of policing, 17 all the EMS care, ambulance, anything that comes onto the 18 reserve being non-native, I bring them on, secure them 19 and watch them leave. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Including OPP. 22 Q: Is it fair to describe your role, 23 then, as a liaison between the First Nations people at 24 Oneida and various policing and emergency services? 25 A: Yes, for sure.
151 Q: How long have you acted as a liaison? 2 A: Since 1990. 3 Q: Do you continue to discharge this 4 function? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what types of situations would 7 you typically be involved in that would require the 8 presence of the OPP at your territory? 9 A: Anytime they call. The OPP call me 10 first and tell me of the situation that they were called 11 upon and then we get together. We meet on the end of the 12 reserve and then we go in, whether it be a warrant or -- 13 or an assault or -- I just let them do their business. 14 Q: All right. Can you describe your -- 15 the nature of your relations with the OPP generally, 16 during the course of your interactions with them at your 17 territory as a liaison? 18 A: Excellent. 19 Q: And so these have been constructive 20 relations that you've had -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- since 1990? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And on to today? 25 A: On to today.
161 Q: And is it fair to say that -- that 2 you have built a level of trust with the OPP in that 3 capacity? 4 A: Very much so. 5 Q: Now, as a Peacekeeper, did you have 6 any involvement with Aboriginal disputes prior to 1995 7 and the Ipperwash situation? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you tell me what disputes you 10 were involved in -- with? 11 A: I went to Oka and Kahnawake. 12 Q: And when was that? 13 A: 1990. 14 Q: And can you tell me at what point in 15 time during the course of that event you came? 16 A: I -- I -- I got to Kahnawake first in 17 July after everything took place and the bridge was taken 18 over and I was sent there to monitor the situation and to 19 try to keep the peace inside the Camp, so nobody flies 20 off the handle. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And then from there, there was 23 starting to be a buildup at Oka and I -- and it was 24 getting too big and there was no leadership, so they 25 asked me to take that role and be the head peacekeeper
171 within the peace camp right outside of Oka. 2 Q: And how long did you function as the 3 head peacekeeper within the Oka camp? 4 A: Right until the day it dissolved. 5 Q: And you said that you were sent to 6 Kahnawake. Who sent you? 7 A: Council. 8 Q: And is there a process that must be 9 followed before you can accept a request or position to - 10 - as a peacekeeper to go out of the community? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Can you describe what that process 13 is? 14 A: Someone has to come from that said 15 community with a wampum, not by telephone or mail, it has 16 to be in person, and they give their situation. They 17 tell the chiefs, clan mothers, what their situation is 18 and then they meet and then call us in for the end of the 19 meeting, and from there, they decide whether we would be 20 helpful or not. 21 Q: And do they define, that is the 22 Council, does the Council set parameters on the ways in 23 which you are permitted to assist in these situations? 24 A: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they always give me 25 direction on how -- what my role will be and how far I
181 can take it. 2 Q: All right, and for example, with 3 respect to Oka, what type of direction were you given? 4 A: I was given the direction just to 5 keep the crowd ruly. 6 Q: Keep the crowd? 7 A: Ruly, so they won't blow up and go 8 into that military -- the Army was right there, the SQ 9 was on the other side and then the KKK were directly 10 right across from us, so it was a tense situation where I 11 had to keep them calm. 12 Q: All right, so you -- your interaction 13 at Oka was with the aboriginal people inside the camp and 14 it was to try to keep things calm within the camp itself? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you have any direct interaction 17 with any members of any of the policing services or the 18 military? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you perform any investigative 21 role there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And are there -- are there certain 24 bottom line principles which you must adhere to, and 25 which you require the others to adhere to when you go
191 into a peacekeeping situation? 2 A: Yes. No drugs, no alcohol, no women 3 and most of all, no firearms. 4 Q: And why is that? Why are those -- 5 well, firstly, who sets those bottom line parameters? 6 A: The secretary. 7 Q: The secretary of the Council at 8 Oneida? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And -- all right. Now, 11 it's returning to the Long House itself, are you a member 12 -- oh, let me ask you this: were you involved in any 13 other aboriginal disputes outside of your territory prior 14 to 1995? 15 A: I was in Brantford for a day or two 16 (2) for their bingo. I was in Washington at -- for the 17 Oneida over in New York, that's about it. 18 Q: All right, now you said -- let me 19 just follow up on that. Brantford, that was -- was that 20 at the Six Nations in Brantford? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You said "for a day or two (2)", with 23 respect to the -- did you say bingo games? 24 A: Yes, they were exercising their 25 sovereignty.
201 Q: All right, by -- by running bingo 2 games within the territory? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were they receiving flack from -- 5 from any agency as a result? 6 A: Oh yeah. 7 Q: And so you were there to do what? 8 A: Keep the peace. 9 Q: Again, keep the peace within the 10 community itself? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when was that? 13 A: I can't remember the correct date. 14 Q: Okay, and with respect to Washington, 15 can you tell us what your role was there? 16 A: Pretty near the same thing, just to 17 keep the people in line and -- because we were there at - 18 - at the main buildings there in Washington, just to make 19 sure nothing happened, because there was other protesters 20 all around us. Just had to stay together and -- 21 Q: You -- 22 A: -- make sure everybody made it home. 23 Q: And just -- can you tell me what the 24 nature of that dispute was? 25 A: It was -- there were some land
211 rights, land claims. 2 Q: In relation to what... 3 A: Oneida Nation. 4 Q: Sorry? 5 A: Oneida Nation. 6 Q: Okay. And was there an occupation of 7 some sort? 8 A: No, no. 9 Q: And how long were you there and when 10 were you there? 11 A: It was 1986, about four (4) days. 12 Q: And you mentioned something about New 13 York, was that a different involvement? 14 A: New York -- that was for the New York 15 Oneidas. 16 Q: And so the same dispute as -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- the Washington one? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Were there any such 21 events that you attended? 22 A: Well, in New York, too; at Oneida New 23 York. I was there for a week or two (2) just as a 24 liaison. I -- I was a runner at that time. That was in 25 1988.
221 Q: All right. 2 A: I was a runner for about two (2) 3 weeks, just... 4 Q: And what is the -- what is the 5 function of a runner? 6 A: That's just to take messages in 7 person back and forth; we don't use telephones. 8 Q: Back and -- between what entities? 9 A: Between the Oneida Nation of the 10 Thames and the Oneida Nation New York. 11 Q: Okay. In relation to your Oneida 12 Nation of the Thames and the long house itself, are you a 13 member of its council? 14 A: No, I'm not. 15 Q: Were you, at any time, a member of 16 its council? 17 A: You mean the Chief's Council or 18 something? 19 Q: The Chief -- as I understand it, you 20 have the nine (9) chiefs and the nine (9) clan mothers. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: We'll rule out the clan mothers, but 23 yeah, the chiefs? 24 A: Oh, no, no, no. 25 Q: Okay. Were you a member of the
231 council, then, in the sense of the -- the people 2 component of it? 3 A: Oh, yes. 4 Q: All right. And all the members of 5 Oneida are, in that sense, the members of the council? 6 A: Yes, yeah. 7 Q: But the only ones who have any 8 decision-making power are who? 9 A: Are the nine (9) chiefs. 10 Q: The nine (9) chiefs? Okay, thank 11 you. Did you have occasion to visit what was then known 12 as Camp Ipperwash, prior to September of 1995? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how many occasions? 15 A: One (1). 16 Q: Do you recall approximately when this 17 occurred? 18 A: In May of 1995. 19 Q: All right, and that would be prior to 20 the occupation of the built-up area? 21 A: Oh, yeah. 22 Q: What was the purpose of attending? 23 A: A guy by the name of Bert Manning 24 come to visit me and told me how they were living and 25 they asked for some donations and asked me to go just see
241 what it's like out there and to see if I lived in -- in 2 any of those conditions before. 3 Q: Okay. And did anything transpire? 4 How -- how long were you there? 5 A: About an hour. 6 Q: An hour? Okay. And what did you do 7 while you were there? 8 A: I didn't get to meet none of the 9 people, nobody was home. We drove to the beach and 10 nobody was around, so we left. 11 Q: Okay. And you say, "we." Who else 12 was with you? 13 A: Just him and I. 14 Q: Mr. Manning and yourself? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Were you present at all 17 at the initial entry in -- by the -- the Stoney Point 18 Group members in May of 1993? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Were you present at the initial 21 occupation of the built-up area of Camp Ipperwash on July 22 29th, 1995? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Were you consulted by any of the 25 Occupants as to their plans or intentions to occupy Camp
251 Ipperwash? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were you present at the initial entry 4 into the Ipperwash Provincial Park on September the 4th, 5 1995? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Were you present at the Park at any 8 time between September 4th and 6th, 1995? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Similarly, were you present at the 11 Army Camp at any time between September 4th and 6th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you recall where you were on 14 September the 4th, 1995? 15 A: Yes, I do, I was home. 16 Q: And home was at Oneida? 17 A: At Oneida. 18 Q: When did you first learn of the 19 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 20 A: I think it was on that day. 21 Q: And how did you learn of it? 22 A: First of all I had a visit by a man 23 who claimed to be a newspaper reporter named Jim Moses. 24 He said he represented the St. Catherine's Standard, I 25 would think.
261 And he told me something along them lines 2 that Natives were taking over some park. 3 Q: Was he more specific with respect to 4 what park? Or did you have an understanding as to what 5 park? 6 A: Ipperwash -- 7 Q: The Ipperwash Provincial Park? 8 A: Provincial Park. 9 Q: And at what time of day was this 10 conversation approximately? 11 A: Between 2:30 and three o'clock. I 12 was cutting grass, cleaning my lawnmower when I see this 13 gentleman pull up and park on the road and I kind of 14 thought something was fishy because he wouldn't come up - 15 - drive up. He parked on the road and walked up and 16 asked if I was Layton and I told him I was. 17 And he told me who he was and then he went 18 onto say that there was Oneidas in Ipperwash Park. Could 19 I go and get them out of there? And I said, No. Why? 20 And he said there's a bunch of Natives, they got AK47's 21 and mini 14's and AR-15's. 22 And they're going to battle with the cops. 23 And I go, Why, you're crazy man. I said they're just out 24 there fishing. And he goes no they're not. And I said, 25 how did you know? And he says from my police
271 intelligence from police inside the Park. 2 And I go, Holy. And you're a reporter? 3 And he goes, Yes, I am. So then I said, Why are you 4 telling me this? He said because I -- I just come 5 speaking with your Chief, meaning the Band Chief. Who at 6 that time was Harry Doxtator. 7 And I said, Well what did he say then? 8 And he said that you were the man to talk to because the 9 guys at the Ipperwash camp won't listen to him, they 10 would listen to me. And I just took it as whatever, just 11 hearsay from this man I, you know, barely knew. 12 And he went onto say that if I didn't get 13 the Oneidas out, that they were -- they were going to 14 probably be dead. He said because the guns that the 15 Natives have, the police have more. They have the same 16 high power, but they have better and they have more and 17 it will be just like shooting fish in a barrel. 18 And I go, Holy shit. What are you talking 19 about man? And then he went on to say that this was the 20 last time he's going to tell me and he said, The shit's 21 going to hit the fan. And he started walking away and I 22 said, Are you really a reporter? I was getting made. 23 And he goes, No, I'm -- I'm a member of 24 the OPP. And I go, Oh. He walked away and left. So I 25 phoned the secretary and told him what I just heard and
281 he goes, Ah, that guy's been here. We can't believe 2 anything he says. So we never, until the 6th. 3 Q: All right. Well, before we proceed 4 to the 6th, I just want to explore this -- this 5 conversation a little bit more with you. You said that 6 you barely knew him? Had you met Mr. Moses before? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: And can you tell me when and what the 9 circumstances of that was? 10 A: It was in 1992. He come to our 11 Nation and asked for a meeting with all the chiefs and 12 chiefs and clan mothers. Both sides, both Band and like 13 the elected side and the Long House chiefs and with 14 myself present. 15 And it was over the Oka thing, the 16 aftermath, and they wanted to know if Oneida had any of 17 the guns and he wanted to write a story on how we were 18 doing after all our involvement in Oka. 19 And at that time, I asked for a copy of 20 that newspaper because he was directing the questions all 21 the time at me, and I asked him for a report, I asked him 22 for that newspaper and he said, We'll send it, I'll send 23 everybody a copy here. 24 We never, ever did get it, so I didn't 25 believe him too much after that.
291 Q: All right, and when you say 2 "newspaper", you asked for a copy of the article that he 3 was going to write? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you ever see the article? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And you indicated that he -- that you 8 said that -- that the -- that the Oneidas down at the 9 Park were just fishing? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: First of all, were there any members 12 from your First Nation at the Park, to your knowledge, on 13 the 4th of September? 14 A: To my knowledge, there were just two 15 (2), but I guess there was more than that. 16 Q: Well, to your knowledge, who was down 17 at the Park from your Nation? 18 A: To my knowledge, there was Buck and 19 Gabe. 20 Q: And what are their last names? 21 A: Doxtator, both of them. 22 Q: Okay. How did you know they were at 23 the Park? 24 A: Because they were coming back selling 25 fish.
301 Q: They were coming back and selling 2 fish? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: When did they come back? 5 A: A couple of days a week. 6 Q: All right, are you indicating that 7 they had been making routine trips down to the Park? 8 A: Yeah, like -- like twice a week or 9 something, yeah. 10 Q: And they were bringing back fish? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you saw that? 13 A: Oh, yeah, and I heard about it. 14 Q: Were they going to other places to 15 fish during that time, too? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And you said that, when you 18 asked him how he knew about the assault weapons that he 19 described to you, he said it was based on police 20 intelligence? 21 A: Yes, based on police intelligence 22 inside the Park. 23 Q: Did he actually use that term with 24 you? 25 A: Yeah.
311 Q: All right, and what did you 2 understand from that term? 3 A: I thought he was just lying. I never 4 believe nothing. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. And why didn't you believe 6 him? 7 A: Because it sounded farfetched, 8 because guys were fishing. Why would they need an AK-47? 9 Q: Now, you said that he was -- he 10 indicated that he was a member of the OPP? 11 A: The OPP or ex-OPP. 12 Q: Sorry? 13 A: Ex. 14 Q: What did he say? 15 A: I asked him, I says, Are you really a 16 reporter? And he stopped and turned around and he says, 17 No, I'm an ex-OPP. 18 Q: Did you have any knowledge as to 19 whether or not he was telling the truth? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do you have any -- did you take any 25 steps to determine for yourself as to whether or not what
321 he said was true, either in terms of him being an ex-OPP 2 officer -- 3 A: Oh, no. 4 Q: -- or in terms of his information 5 that there were assault weapons at the Park? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was anyone else present at this 8 conversation? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Approximately how long did this 11 conversation take place? 12 A: About ten (10) minutes. 13 Q: And you said that towards the end, 14 you were getting angry. What were you getting angry at? 15 A: Because I start remembering who he 16 was and I didn't really want to speak to him. 17 Q: Did you ask him for any 18 identification, showing that, for example, he used to be 19 allegedly a police officer? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you have any further contact with 22 Mr. Moses? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: When was that? 25 A: I would say -- I seen him in the
331 garage at Ipperwash about August 14th, 15th, 16th 2 something like that. I seen him in a garage and -- 3 Q: What year? 4 A: '95. 5 Q: And where was the garage? 6 A: I mean September -- September. 7 Q: Sorry? 8 A: September of 1995. 9 Q: All right. Which dates in September? 10 A: The second week I was there. 11 Q: Okay. So, this after the events of 12 September the 6th? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you say it was in a garage, 15 a garage located where? 16 A: On Stoney Point Territory. 17 Q: In the Park or the Camp? 18 A: The Camp. 19 Q: Okay. And did you have further 20 discussions with him at that time? 21 A: Not at that time, no, I just looked 22 at him and I knew who he was and I drove away. 23 Q: All right. Did you have any further 24 discussions with Mr. Moses with respect to this 25 conversation that you have reported about on -- that
341 occurred on September 4th? 2 A: Yes, later on about November or maybe 3 even into the next year he kept phoning my wife and 4 leaving his number for me to contact him, so I did. I 5 asked him, What's up? What does he want with me and he 6 said the police are treating him wrong; they're not 7 paying him for his services and he wanted to tell me what 8 was going on, what he knew. 9 Q: Now -- now when you say the -- you 10 said the police weren't paying him for his services, did 11 he advise you as to what services? 12 A: That he was an informant, he was an 13 informant. 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: He was an informant for the OPP. 16 Q: And did he tell you in connection 17 with what work he allegedly did? 18 A: He was gathering information on all 19 Natives in -- across Ontario or even Canada. 20 Q: And did he say what organization he 21 was allegedly working for, providing the services for? 22 A: CSIS. 23 Q: All right. Okay. Now, going back to 24 September the 4th of 1995, you indicated that you -- you 25 did contact someone from your community after this
351 conversation? 2 A: Yes, I phoned a secretary -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- and told him. 5 Q: And what was his name? 6 A: Howard Elijah. Excuse me. 7 Q: And what's his function as secretary? 8 A: He gets all -- he gets all the 9 debris. He gets all the phone calls. He gets 10 everything, he's a very busy man. 11 Q: Does he -- does he, for example, 12 organize council meetings? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And set agendas, things like that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And is he someone that 17 you would -- you would contact if you had a concern that 18 maybe needed to be brought to the attention of the 19 council? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And is that why you called him 22 on this occasion? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you said his response was... 25 A: We know that guy, he's just a liar,
361 just let it go. 2 Q: All right. Did you pursue the matter 3 any further with anyone else within the community? 4 A: No, just my wife. 5 Q: Do you know where Mr. Moses currently 6 resides? 7 A: Either in Six Nations or Brantford or 8 St. Catharines. 9 Q: Are you aware as to whether or not 10 Mr. Moses brought his claims to the -- the media? 11 A: Yes, he did. 12 Q: All right. Okay. Now, had you been 13 consulted in advance of the occupation of the Park by 14 anyone from the Stoney Point Group -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- or -- or from Buck or Gabriel 17 Doxtator in relation to plans or an intention to occupy 18 the Park? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Now, was either of Buck or Gabriel 21 Doxtator, were they at the Park under -- under some 22 official authority of the long house? 23 A: I -- I don't know. 24 Q: All right. Is that something that 25 you would expect to have been apprised of given your
371 later role? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And so, you don't -- do 4 you have any information which suggests that they were 5 there in a -- in a particular role on behalf of the Long 6 House? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Now did you have any contact 9 with anyone, any of the occupants or anyone from the Park 10 at any time between September 4th and 6th, 1995? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You indicate -- did you have any more 13 involvement in this -- in the -- did you have any 14 involvement in this matter at any time between September 15 4th and 6th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Do you -- at some point in time did 18 you receive any telephone calls originating which you 19 believe originated from the Park? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: Can you tell me first of all, 22 approximately how many telephone calls you received and 23 when? 24 A: I would say three (3), and then I 25 called once.
381 Q: Three (3) telephone calls that you 2 received? 3 A: Yeah, collect. 4 Q: Collect? Okay. Dealing with the 5 first telephone call then, can you tell me when, 6 approximately, you received that telephone call? 7 A: It was about ten (10) to 11:00. 8 Q: And how can you be certain of that 9 time? 10 A: Because of what he told me, I looked 11 at the clock and I said, Oh, I can still watch it on the 12 news. 13 Q: Okay. Watch what on the news? 14 A: What was going on. 15 Q: At the Park? 16 A: At the Park. 17 Q: Who called you? 18 A: Gabe Doxtator called me. But when 19 the operator told me they said it was a Buck Doxtator 20 calling collect. And I accepted the call and when I 21 said, Hello, it was Gabe. 22 Q: Okay. So the operator, first of all, 23 initiated the call? 24 A: Well, you know, when I pick -- yeah. 25 Q: Yeah, okay. Or at least the first
391 person you talked to was an operator? 2 A: Yeah, it was the operator. 3 Q: And said there was a collect call 4 from a Buck Doxtator? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. And you accepted the charges? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when you were connected it was 9 Gabriel? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And where were you when you received 12 this telephone call? 13 A: I was home. 14 Q: And do you know, did Mr. Doxtator 15 tell you where he was? 16 A: Oh, yeah. 17 Q: What did he tell you? 18 A: He said he was at Ipperwash and he 19 said that they were getting beat up by the police. And I 20 said, For what? And he went, I don't know, they are just 21 kicking the shit out of us. We're outnumbered here. 22 And I go, Well, what did you do? You had 23 to do something. You know, tell me man, what's going on? 24 Because he was breathing heavy and was nervous and scared 25 or something. So I had a tendency to believe him right
401 away. 2 And he said, We need help man, help us. 3 And he said, Here, talk to Buck. So Buck got on the 4 phone and he says, Yeah man, he says, They already come 5 in once and it looks like they're coming again. 6 He said, We need help. Gotta go. Bang 7 and he hung up. That's about the extent of the first 8 phone call. 9 Q: And you said that when Mr. Gabriel 10 Doxtator said something to the affect that they were 11 being beaten up, that you asked why, what did you do? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And why did you ask that? 14 A: Because you don't get beat up for 15 nothing. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And at least as far as I know. 18 Q: Okay. All right. And did you make 19 any response to either Gabriel or Buck with respect to 20 their suggestion that they needed help? 21 A: Yes, I did. I said, What I can do is 22 I can take it to Council and see what they suggest. He 23 become mad. He said, Fuck you, and hung up. 24 Q: Okay. And during the course of this 25 conversation, this telephone conversation, could you hear
411 anything in the background? 2 A: The first phone call, I don't know if 3 it was the first one or the second one. Gabe said, Do 4 you hear all that? And I go, Yeah. He goes, That's the 5 cops. He said, They're acting like fucking kids, because 6 I could hear all kinds of hollering in the background. 7 Q: Hollering? 8 A: Hollering. 9 Q: Could you hear any words? 10 A: No, not plain, no. 11 Q: Just a lot of hollering? 12 A: Just a lot -- a lot of hollering, 13 noise. And I think it was the second call, and Buck got 14 on the phone again. He said, Get some guys together, 15 come on down right away, quick, they're shooting at us 16 now, and they're shooting real bullets. They're using 17 real bullets, get some fucking guys together and get down 18 here. 19 And I repeated, I can't. I have to go the 20 proper procedure and he said, What the fuck you going to 21 wait for? Somebody to fucking die around here? You 22 fucking coward. 23 And I got kind of pissed off and I tried 24 to hold my cool. I said, I'm doing everything I can. 25 And we hung up.
421 Q: Now, approximately how much time had 2 elapsed as between the -- the end of the first call and 3 the beginning of the second call? 4 A: About five (5) minutes. 5 Q: And in the interim, had you -- did 6 you take any action or had you done anything in response 7 to receiving the first phone call? 8 A: Yes, I tried to phone the secretary, 9 which we all have to do. I tried to phone the secretary; 10 he wasn't home, I couldn't get through. So, I phoned the 11 OPP and the secretary on the OPP, a lady, who knew me 12 because I always made the calls on behalf of our nation, 13 and she just says, Oh, good evening, Layton, how are you 14 doing? 15 I said, All right. She says, How can I 16 help you tonight? And I said, I want to talk to anybody 17 around Camp Ipperwash wherever that is. I want to talk 18 to anybody in charge out that way. 19 And she goes, Well, there's no police 20 station out there, the closest one is Forest. Would you 21 like that number? 22 I said, Sure, just give me something. And 23 she says, Oh, did it happen already? And I goes, 24 Something happened, and I think you know. 25 And she said, Well, I got a better plan.
431 How about if I hot patch you right to the situation, 2 right to the command centre, right where it's going on. 3 Would you like that? 4 And I said, Sure, I would. So she did, 5 she hot patched me to the command centre and I talked to 6 Doug Babbitt. 7 Q: How do you know it was Doug Babbitt? 8 A: He identified himself and I asked him 9 two (2) more times. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: He identified him as Doug Babbitt, 12 command centre, OPP and I said, I want to talk to 13 whoever's in charge here. And he goes, I am. I said, 14 Are you sure you're in charge? 15 He goes, Yes, I am. Who is this? And I 16 go, Never mind who this is, I want to know who you are. 17 I said, What are you doing to our people out there? 18 And he goes, We're returning fire. 19 Returning fire? I says, That's a fucking lie. They 20 ain't got no guns out there. 21 He goes, who is this? And I go, never 22 mind who this is, I just need to know who you are. Why 23 are you doing that to our people? 24 He goes, As far as I know, they're just 25 shooting above their head, and just scaring them. And I
441 goes, Well, as far as you know, you're wrong. Are you 2 sure you're in charge? 3 And he goes, Yes, I am. Why do you want 4 to know? And I said, Because I want to know who I'm 5 going to be charging with murder in the morning. 6 And he said, Sorry, sir, I'm not the man 7 you want. The man you want is John Carson, and I said, 8 Well let me talk to John Carson. 9 He said, I can't do that. I go, Why not? 10 Because he's in the field. And I said, Well, he must 11 have communications with him if he's in charge. I want 12 to talk to him, I want this stopped right now. 13 And all he said was, I can pass a message 14 on. Who is this? He kept asking who I was and I 15 wouldn't answer what it was. 16 Q: Why not? 17 A: I was -- because of what I heard what 18 was going on, I was scared for myself and plus I knew -- 19 I knew it was being taped. 20 Q: How did you know that? 21 A: Because being involved with the OPP 22 and their communication centres, I know all the -- all 23 calls that go through there are taped. Anyways, we said 24 our goodbyes and I got one (1) more call from the place 25 and this time it was -- Gabe called again --
451 Q: All right, just -- just let me back 2 you up for a moment. Now, you said that -- initially I 3 thought you said this call happened in between the first 4 and second call. 5 Did it happen between the first and second 6 call or did it happen after the second call? 7 A: It happened after the second one, 8 because the third call, it was Larry French I was talking 9 to. 10 Q: Okay. And just before we get to the 11 third call, then, do you know approximately how long or 12 what time the call to Officer Babbitt was made at? 13 A: Right around 11:00, right -- right 14 quick. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Within minutes. 17 Q: And just so that I'm clear, what 18 number did you -- or what place did you initially call to 19 reach the female operator? 20 A: The London OPP. 21 Q: The London OPP Detachment? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And why did you call there? 24 A: That's where I -- I always call. 25 Q: In relation to your position as
461 liaison? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you said that you were, "hot- 4 patched," what does that mean? 5 A: To my knowledge, that means a direct 6 line right straight through, right from point A to point 7 B. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But she was in there on point A with 10 me. 11 Q: Meaning...? 12 A: Meaning she knew what was said all 13 along. 14 Q: She heard you -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- you believe she heard that 17 conversation -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- with Officer Babbitt? And why -- 20 how is it that you -- what's the basis of your belief 21 there? 22 A: That's what I believe that happens 23 there in that command centre -- 24 Q: Okay, is this -- 25 A: -- in that police building.
471 Q: This is an assumption on your part, 2 then? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And approximately how 5 long did the call with Officer Babbitt take place? 6 A: How long did it take? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: About five (5) minutes. 9 Q: All right. And you said to him that 10 -- something to the effect of he would be charged with 11 murder or you were going to charge him with murder. 12 Why would you say something like that? 13 A: Because I thought I could. 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: I thought I could. 16 Q: And what was the basis for you making 17 that statement? 18 A: I'm a peacekeeper; I'm recognized 19 through our territory and I think other Indian 20 territories. 21 Q: Yes, but I'm asking you what would be 22 the basis for you making such a statement to Officer 23 Babbitt? 24 A: Because I knew what was happening. I 25 believed those phone calls I got.
481 Q: All right. 2 A: That somebody was dying. 3 Q: Did anybody during the first -- 4 course of the first two (2) phone calls suggest to you 5 that somebody had been shot? 6 A: Oh, yeah, yeah, the second call. 7 Q: The second call? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Are you sure of that? 10 A: Yes, I'm sure of that, that's how I 11 knew -- the first call was just a fight and their coming 12 again and hung up. The second call was their shooting 13 with real bullets, no warning shots. 14 They didn't even say, Is there anybody 15 here we could talk to or nothing, there was no -- no form 16 of dealing back and forth, there was no negotiations, 17 nothing. 18 Q: Okay. In relation -- this is what 19 was reported to you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And during the course of that second 22 phone call with Gabriel and Buck Doxtator, did you hear 23 anything in the background? 24 A: All I heard was loud noises going on. 25 I -- I can't say for sure, I don't want to get stuck.
491 Q: Okay. And you said after you had a 2 phone call with Officer Babbitt you received a third 3 phone call? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And approximately how 6 much -- how long after the call with Officer Babbitt? 7 A: I would say about between five (5) 8 and ten (10) minutes. 9 Q: All right. What transpired during 10 the course of the third phone call? 11 A: The third phone call was, they don't 12 think that -- that Dudley was going to make it, he looked 13 pretty bad, they need help and guns, anything, just help. 14 I couldn't help them. 15 Q: Who initiated the third phone call? 16 A: Gabe. 17 Q: All right. And what did he tell you? 18 A: He said it's worse. It's bad. He -- 19 he couldn't talk. He was, like I am, and it was real 20 believable so he said here's Dutchy he -- he can explain 21 it better. 22 Q: And Dutchy is Larry French. 23 A: Larry French. 24 Q: Yes. And was he from your Nation? 25 A: No.
501 Q: No. 2 A: He's from Muncey. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Dutchy says, they're telling the 5 truth. They're shooting real bullets. People are 6 getting shot here. We don't know if they're going to 7 come back. There's a gun, it's a .22, but they ain't no 8 good to nobody. It's got no bullets. We need help. We 9 need guns. We need -- we need -- we need bodies here. 10 Help us. 11 And I just said, Hey, I'll do what I can, 12 man. There was nothing I could do but call back to the 13 OPP again. So I did. 14 Q: You called the OPP a second time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Oh, that's -- yes, the second time. 18 I called Doug Babbitt again and this time he must have 19 knew who I was. I mean recognized my voice and he said, 20 Sir, I'm serious, we were just shooting above their heads 21 and I says, Well, two (2) missed. 22 I said for all the high tech you guys got, 23 you missed. You missed a whole bunch. He didn't say he 24 was sorry, he didn't say nothing. Just said it happened. 25 I wasn't feeling too good, I couldn't help the guys, too
511 far away. 2 Q: How -- how did you reach Doug 3 Babbitt. In other words, how did you know how to reach 4 him? 5 A: Through the OPP again. 6 Q: The London Detachment? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you know if you spoke to the 9 same operator? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what precisely did Officer 12 Babbitt say to you in response to what you said? 13 A: Just that they were returning fire. 14 He kept saying that and he was sticking to his story. I 15 tried to tell him that I knew different and that we'd 16 meet again some day. 17 Q: You said that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what did you mean? 20 A: That I would meet him some place, I 21 thought it would be a courtroom. 22 Q: And how long -- what was the length 23 of this telephone call? 24 A: It was shorter. Probably two (2) to 25 three (3) minutes.
521 Q: Now these telephone calls occurred 2 some ten (10) years ago. 3 Did you make any notes at the time of any 4 of these telephone calls? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. Have you been -- were you 7 interviewed by anyone from either the OPP or SIU or 8 anyone else in relation to these telephone calls? 9 A: Yes, the SIU. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Do you recall when you were 14 interviewed by the SIU in relation to these telephone 15 calls? 16 A: Do I remember when? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you remember who conducted the 20 interview? 21 A: I think it was Wayne Allen. 22 Q: Do you recall whether or not that 23 interview was taped? 24 A: A lot of mine were, yes. 25 Q: Now, I'm asking you these questions
531 because we do have an anticipated evidence statement that 2 appears to reflect an SIU interview of you, but it dealt 3 with the handing over of potential evidence. 4 Was there a separate interview? 5 A: Oh yes, there was many, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And approximately when was 7 this particular interview concerning the telephone calls 8 done, in relation to the September '95 events? 9 A: I think I told them on the first -- 10 first meeting, because it was so truthful and -- 11 Q: All right, but can you give me a 12 sense as to how long after September 6th this occurred? 13 A: About the 12th, 13th. 14 Q: Of September? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you ever see a copy of -- of any 17 transcript or statement reflecting this interview? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And you're quite certain that 20 it occurred, though? 21 A: Oh yes, it occurred more than once, 22 too. 23 Q: All right. And have you made any 24 notes about this converse -- these three (3) telephone 25 conversations with -- with Mr. Doxtator, Gabriel and Buck
541 and Dutchy or the calls with Officer Babbitt? 2 A: To the SIU? 3 Q: Yeah -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: No, well no, to -- 6 A: Well, no -- 7 Q: -- have you -- 8 A: To myself, no. 9 Q: Okay. So are you operating then, on 10 your memory -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- primarily? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Thank you. Now, after your -- then 15 your second phone call with that Officer Babbitt, what if 16 anything did you do? 17 A: The second phone call, it was short. 18 It was pretty well the same as the first phone call. But 19 the third phone call, it was different. It was -- he was 20 really blaming John Carson. 21 Q: Okay, you said there's a third phone 22 call with Officer Babbitt -- 23 A: Yes, a third one. 24 Q: -- now? 25 A: Yeah.
551 Q: And when -- when did that happen? 2 A: That happened about 12:30, one 3 o'clock in the morning. 4 Q: Who initiated that phone call? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: All right. And how did you -- how -- 7 how were you able to be connected with Officer Babbitt? 8 A: The same way. 9 Q: Through the operator at the London 10 Detachment? 11 A: Yes, but it wasn't from my house. 12 Q: Where was it from? 13 A: It was from a cell phone. 14 Q: Your cell phone? 15 A: No, someone else's cell phone. 16 Q: All right. Do you recall whose? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: And what was the purpose of calling 19 Officer Babbitt a third time? 20 A: It's just that a lot of guys had 21 gathered and I don't know if they believed me or not. 22 Q: All right, so perhaps we can back up 23 for a moment then. You say a lot of guys had gathered, 24 my question was: What did you do, if anything, after 25 your second phone call with Officer Babbitt?
561 A: Nothing. 2 Q: All right. What guys had gathered? 3 A: Some of the Oneida people. 4 Q: Where -- where did they gather? 5 A: They gathered at, they called it the 6 smoke shop. 7 Q: And were you there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how did you know to go to the 10 smoke shop? 11 A: That's where we said we'd all meet. 12 Q: All right. So someone asked these 13 people to be there? 14 A: Yes, I phoned a couple of people and 15 everybody just phoned each other. 16 Q: Okay. In the meantime, did you make 17 further attempts to reach the secretary, Mr. Elijah, 18 Howard Elijah? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right, and why not? 21 A: Because he was not available. 22 Q: Okay. Did you make any attempts to 23 reach any members of the Council, any of the chiefs or 24 the clan mothers? 25 A: No, it was getting late.
571 Q: All right. What was the purpose of 2 calling the individuals who then met at the smoke shop 3 with you? 4 A: I just wanted to give them a head's 5 up on what happened to all our brothers out that way. 6 Q: What did you report to them? 7 A: I reported that some guys were shot 8 and the OPP were beating the heck out of them and we 9 could be next. 10 Q: Now, what was the basis for your 11 statement that you could be next, that Oneida could be 12 next? 13 A: Because that's where all my calls 14 were coming -- all their calls into their -- to their 15 Command centre was coming from Oneida. 16 Q: Now, did any -- during -- did you 17 find out information concerning what individuals had been 18 allegedly shot during the course of any of those three 19 (3) phone calls you had earlier in the evening? 20 A: Just Dudley. 21 Q: All right. And when did you find out 22 that -- which -- during which telephone call? 23 A: The -- the second and the third was 24 the bad one, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And the second phone call,
581 what was said about Dudley George? 2 A: That he was shot. 3 Q: And who told you that? 4 A: Gabe. 5 Q: And in the third telephone call, what 6 was said about Dudley George? 7 A: That he was gone, dead, that he was 8 gone. 9 Q: That he was deceased? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And who told you that? 12 A: Both Gabe and Dutchy. 13 Q: And you're quite sure about that? 14 A: I'm positive about that. 15 Q: All right. And approximately how 16 many people, then, did you meet with at the smoke shop? 17 A: About twenty (20). 18 Q: And this was somewhere between 12:30 19 and 1:00 or... 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And were they all men? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you come to any plans or -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what plan did you design?
591 A: Well, there were some there that had 2 family inside of Ipperwash, brothers and stuff like that, 3 so they wanted to know if they were okay and what all 4 happened. 5 And we knew that people were gone to 6 hospitals and we didn't know which ones, so we sent guys, 7 meaning a couple of guys, a couple of cars to London -- 8 Victoria Hospital, we sent two (2) cars to Strathroy 9 Hospital and we sent two (2) cars to see how close they 10 could get to Camp Ipperwash. 11 The guys that went to London, Victoria 12 Hospital, never had no problems, but there was no -- 13 nobody there that had been shot. At Strathroy they 14 couldn't get close, couldn't do nothing there. The guys, 15 the two (2) cars that went to Ipperwash couldn't make it 16 and all returned and we met about 2:30 and then everybody 17 started knowing how real it was and... 18 Q: Did you go in any of these cars to 19 any of the locations? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You stayed behind? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Why? 24 A: I always do. I just -- that's what I 25 do, I just --
601 Q: All right. 2 A: -- give the orders. 3 Q: And -- and how did you find out about 4 the results of the efforts of the people who you sent out 5 to the various locations? 6 A: They all come back. 7 Q: They all came back? 8 A: Oh, yeah. 9 Q: And reported? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Approximately what time? 12 A: I'd say about an hour. 13 Q: All right. So, just give me a sense 14 there, are we talking 2:30, 3:00 -- 15 A: Yeah -- 16 Q: -- somewhere in that vicinity? 17 A: -- 2:30, yeah. 18 Q: All right. And the report you 19 received from the individuals who went to the Strathroy 20 Hospital was that they couldn't get close to the 21 hospital? 22 A: They couldn't get close to the 23 hospital. 24 Q: Did they tell you why? 25 A: There was too many OPP.
611 Q: And similarly, did the people tell 2 you why they couldn't get close to the Park? 3 A: Too many OPP. 4 Q: All right. And do you recall the 5 names of the individuals or any of them who went out to 6 these two (2) locations? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Now I take it from your earlier 9 testimony that these actions that you were taking were 10 not actions that were sanctioned or authorized by the 11 Long House? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. So what was the basis for 14 your intervention at this point? 15 A: Because I -- I felt obligated. I 16 felt because I was being asked for help so many times by 17 so many different people, that we had to do something. 18 Q: All right. And then after the 19 individuals came back from these three (3) locations and 20 reported; what if anything did you do? 21 A: Nothing. We just took care of the 22 reserve and we waited until the next day and reported to 23 Council. 24 Q: All right. And the next day you were 25 able to contact Council?
621 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that would be September the 7th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And were you present at 5 the Council meeting? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now had you spoken with anyone from 8 either Camp Ipperwash or Ipperwash Provincial Park in the 9 meantime? 10 In other words, after the third call? 11 A: No, no. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: The last thing was you can't call 14 here no more. The phone is going to be gone. 15 Q: Somebody told you that? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Who told you that? 18 A: Probably Gabe. He was the most 19 talkative guy. 20 Q: Okay. All right. And what the 21 decision, if anything, if any -- of the Council the next 22 day? 23 A: The next day. Yeah, they just said 24 the same thing I did. Someone has to come in person from 25 the said community and bring their grievance or problem
631 or whatever it is to the Council. 2 Q: All right. And was that message sent 3 out to the community? 4 A: I -- I would think so. 5 Q: You don't know though? 6 A: I -- I never done it. 7 Q: All right. Did anyone come from the 8 Stoney Point community to attend before Council to your 9 knowledge? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you recall when? 12 A: September the 8th. 13 Q: September the 8th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Do you recall who came? 16 A: I just remember his last name was 17 Manning. 18 Q: All right. Were you present at the 19 Council when this individual came and made a 20 presentation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was the gist of his 23 presentation? 24 A: He more or less said what all 25 happened there. That there was a lot of families
641 involved. He was part of the family and he was on a 2 phone. He got all his direction from a phone. 3 And he presented all what they thought 4 they needed and Council met about it and agreed that 5 Stoney Point needed help. 6 Q: Now had you met this individual 7 before? 8 A: No. I think his name was Harvey. 9 Q: And do you know whether he was 10 actually or did he say whether he was actually at the 11 Park that night? 12 A: No, he wasn't. 13 Q: Okay. And as a result of the Council 14 deliberations, were you provided with any directions by 15 Council? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what were you directed to do? 18 A: To take as many men as possible to 19 Stoney Point, to the Park, meet with the people from that 20 territory and find out what all they needed, where they 21 needed us and to do the best job that we could. 22 Q: All right. And what -- in what role 23 were you being sent to the Stoney Point community from 24 the -- by the Council? 25 A: Well, I've always been the head
651 Peacekeeper, but I was to be an observer. 2 Q: An observer initially? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And as a result of this 5 direction, did you attend at either the Army Camp or the 6 Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: When? 9 A: We got there on September the 8th. 10 It was dark, so it must have been after 9:00. When we 11 first got there, we were met by some guys, I can't 12 remember who they were. We boarded a bus and went 13 straight to the Park. 14 Q: Now, in order to get -- well, let me 15 ask you this. Did you go to the Army Camp first? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right, and were there any -- did 18 you have to go through any barriers to get to the Park -- 19 A: Oh, yeah. 20 Q: -- or to the Army Camp, excuse me. 21 A: Yes, we did. 22 Q: Can you just tell me about that? 23 A: It was a lot of police standing in 24 ditches with -- they looked like to me, Mini-14's or 25 whatever, with some clips hanging off of them, looked
661 pretty mean. We met -- 2 Q: Well -- 3 A: -- three (3) road blocks. 4 Q: But this was at night time, was it 5 not? 6 A: Yes, it was at night time. 7 Q: How could you see that, then? 8 A: Because we had to come to a complete 9 stop. 10 Q: Was there a block? 11 A: Yes, the roads were blocked off -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- but as you come to a stop you look 14 over, and you can see OPP lined up on both sides of the 15 ditches. 16 Q: All right, and did you have to 17 identify yourselves to the police officers? 18 A: Yes, we identified ourselves. We 19 thought we'd have to go through a search, we didn't mind. 20 We just wanted to get there. 21 Q: Okay, well, we're you asked to be -- 22 to submit to a search? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. So once you gave your 25 names, did the police let you through?
671 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you have any sense that the 3 police officers who spoke with you knew who you were or 4 had a sense that -- of who you were? 5 A: I -- I would think so, because some 6 of the ones I looked at right directly in the face, were 7 from London. 8 Q: So these were -- some of these police 9 officers you had had a prior relationship with? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right, and you arrived, then, in 12 the Army Camp and you said you boarded a bus? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you recall what kind of bus you 15 boarded? 16 A: A school bus. 17 Q: All right. And did you make any 18 observations about the condition of that school bus when 19 you boarded it? 20 A: Just that I knew that it wasn't for 21 school anymore, you know, it was just a old bus, but it 22 ran pretty good. And it was shot up. 23 Q: Did you actually observe -- 24 A: Oh, yes -- 25 Q: -- holes?
681 A: We were shown that right away. 2 Q: By whom? 3 A: Some of the guys at the Camp. 4 Q: Do you recall who, though? 5 A: No, I can't. 6 Q: Did you know these people? Had you 7 met them before? 8 A: Never. 9 Q: All right. And can you just recall 10 what -- what holes they pointed you to or how many holes 11 they pointed you to and where they were located? 12 A: No, just some of the holes and some 13 of the one -- somebody that was driving got shot and... 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Not really, no. 16 Q: All right, and when you went into 17 that bus, did you -- did you notice any objects in the 18 bus? Any -- any weapons, any firearms -- 19 A: Oh, no, no. 20 Q: Any bullet casings, anything like 21 that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: It was dark, no. 25 Q: All right, and you went down to the
691 Park. What did you then do when you went down to the 2 Park? 3 A: We met the rest of the guys that were 4 there and I knew some of them. I knew -- there was a 5 couple of Oneidas there, a couple of guys from Walpole 6 Island, I knew them. 7 So we all met and just sat around and went 8 over what happened. 9 Q: Who did you speak to that you 10 recognized? 11 A: Robert Isaac from Walpole Island, 12 Alan George from Oneida, Les Jewel from Detroit. That's 13 about the main guys, I guess, that I talked to. 14 Q: And did you also see Buck and Gabriel 15 Doxtator at that time? 16 A: Yeah, probably the next day. 17 Q: The next day, okay. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: I'm just talking about that -- that 20 night. 21 A: No, not that I know. 22 Q: How about Dutchy French? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You saw him that night? 25 A: Yes.
701 Q: All right. And who went with you to 2 the Park from Oneida? 3 A: There was about thirty-six (36) of 4 us. 5 Q: All in the bus? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Thirty-six (36) men from 8 Oneida with you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And were these men who were 11 sent by the Council? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right, and I take it you must 14 have come in at least a few cars? 15 A: Oh, yeah. 16 Q: And to your knowledge, were all the 17 cars stopped? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: By the police, I mean, outside -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- the Camp Ipperwash? Okay, and 22 what -- what measures, if any, did you take in the 23 evening of September the 8th with respect to the Park? 24 Did you do anything or was it just to gather information? 25 A: It was just to gather information,
711 meet some of the guys, just to look around and just meet 2 guys, that's all. 3 Q: All right. And was there any visible 4 policing presence around the Park that night? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So it was only the -- the occupiers 7 and -- and the men you brought? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And could you see whether or 10 not there had been any measures taken to -- to preserve 11 the area where the -- the confrontation occurred? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. So people were -- were 14 people actually walking around that area? 15 A: All over. 16 Q: In the sandy parking lot along East 17 Parkway Drive as far as you could see? 18 A: Oh, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And did you also walk around 20 those areas? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And did you observe any -- any 23 residue from the confrontation that night? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Was it -- was the area
721 lit, the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: What was it lit by? 4 A: There was street lights. 5 Q: Street lights? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Are you sure about that? 8 A: Yes, positive. 9 Q: Did you any flashlights with you? 10 A: Flashlights, spotlights, they were 11 all over. 12 Q: All right. Did you have one? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Okay. And how long did you 15 stay in the -- in the area walking around the Park, the 16 sandy parking lot and -- and the East Parkway Drive area? 17 A: Oh, twenty (20) minutes, half an 18 hour. 19 Q: All right. And then what did you do? 20 A: We all just went and -- by the fire 21 and told stories I guess. 22 Q: Where did you -- where was the fire 23 that you sat around? 24 A: Just inside the Park. 25 Q: Okay. And at that time did you
731 notice the remains of a burnt structure? 2 A: Oh, yeah. 3 Q: And where was the fire that you sat 4 around in relation to that structure? 5 A: About twenty (20) feet. 6 Q: Did you understand that the structure 7 was -- used to be a store of some sort? 8 A: No, I never did. Just a building. 9 Q: Okay. And were you within eyeshot of 10 the sandy parking lot? 11 A: Oh, yeah. 12 Q: Now did anything else of significance 13 occur during the course of that evening? 14 A: No, not really. I was just surprised 15 how small that area was for that many people to be -- 16 Q: Okay. And I take it you had no 17 further exchanges with the police that evening? 18 A: No. No. 19 Q: Did you communicate back or report 20 back to -- to your Council? 21 A: Yes, I phoned back and told them we 22 made it in and we met the people and we're going to rest 23 until tomorrow. 24 Q: And that you were going to rest til 25 tomorrow. So you made this phone call that evening?
741 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you have a cell phone or 3 where did you make -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And where did you sleep that night? 6 A: In the bus. 7 Q: In the bus? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Did others sleep in the bus with you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you know where the remaining 12 men slept? I assume not all thirty-six (36) were on the 13 bus. 14 A: All over on the ground. 15 Q: Okay. Fair enough. All right. 16 A: And some stayed up keeping point 17 and -- 18 Q: Keeping point? 19 A: Yeah, watching, looking out. 20 Q: Now, were these men under your 21 direction? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you -- did you have a further 24 communication with Council concerning what it was you 25 should be doing?
751 A: Not until the next day. 2 Q: September the 9th? 3 A: September the 9th or 10th. 4 Q: All right. And what, if any, 5 conclusions had you come to in relation to what roles you 6 could best discharge. 7 A: Most of all was the people that went 8 through this, they weren't feeling too good. They didn't 9 look that great. Their hopes weren't too high. 10 And I asked them to move to the built-up 11 area, the Camp, and all the Oneidas stayed at the back in 12 case the OPP come back again, that would be us there 13 instead of them; they already went through enough. 14 Q: You recommended, then, to these -- 15 the occupiers that they go back to the built-up area on 16 the 9th? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Is that on the 9th? All right. And 19 that you and your men from Oneida would stay in the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what -- what was the basis for 22 your concern that the police might return? 23 A: Because they're getting to a point 24 where I don't trust them. 25 Q: A this point you -- you were
761 concerned about trusting them? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that was based on what? 4 A: Everything I seen there. 5 Q: And so did the -- did the -- did the 6 occupiers go back to Camp Ipperwash? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And did you -- 9 A: They all had places to stay in, like 10 houses and a place to stay, so it was no problem. 11 Q: All right. Did you have any 12 interactions with the police during the course of 13 September the 9th? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. What did you do on the 16 9th, then? 17 A: On the 9th some of our chiefs come in 18 and clan mothers and -- to look at the situation and 19 there was a meeting inside the gymnasium -- auditorium, 20 or whatever you want to call it. 21 Q: Where was that? 22 A: At -- at the built-up area. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And I don't know if it was Glenn or 25 Judas George -- Glenn George -- that asked Bruce Elijah
771 to see if the Oneidas could take the lead because they'd 2 never, ever been in a situation like that before with a 3 confrontation with police or -- anything like that. 4 They're a pretty peaceful people. 5 And knowing that that's what we do is try 6 and keep the peace in other communities and we had 7 experience at it, that's what we done. We said, Yes, 8 we'll take that role and we started right then and there. 9 Q: Okay. And just for clarification, 10 what role, if any, were you assigned within this context 11 on behalf of Oneida? 12 A: Head peacekeeper. 13 Q: All right. Commissioner, I'm 14 wondering whether it might be an appropriate time for the 15 morning break before I move on? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 19 the morning break now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:27 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:45 a.m. 25
781 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed, please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Mr. Elijah, before we move onto your 6 involvement in the post-September 6th event, I'd like to 7 return to the telephone calls that you testified 8 receiving in the late evening of September the 6th. 9 What telephone company did you use in 10 September of '95? 11 A: Bell. 12 Q: And in whose name was the telephone? 13 A: Veronica Nicholas. 14 Q: And who is she? 15 A: She's my common-law wife. 16 Q: Thank you. Did your spouse receive 17 her September '95 account from Bell? 18 A: Yes, she did. 19 Q: Did you review it? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: Did you notice anything peculiar? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: What did you notice? 24 A: That the -- the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 25 8th, it's just like those days never happened; they were
791 blacked out. 2 Q: Now, were they physically -- were 3 there entries that were physically blacked out or what 4 did you view? 5 A: Yes, they were physically blacked 6 out. 7 Q: Okay. And what if anything did you 8 do when you noticed this? 9 A: I asked Veronica to write a letter to 10 Bell Canada asking for receipts of our September bill; 11 that we needed them. 12 Q: And do -- do you know what the result 13 of those efforts were? 14 A: The first one was nothing. And the 15 second time was a telephone call and they send us a 16 different copy. It had those dates on there but it had a 17 cover letter stating that if anything is missed, don't 18 worry about it, we will not be billed for it later. 19 Sorry for the inconvenience. 20 Q: All right. And what -- what 21 information would you have expected to see on that 22 account which wasn't there? 23 A: I expected to see all those collect 24 phone calls that I was going to try to prove. 25 Q: Did you keep a copy of that bill?
801 A: Of the very first bill? 2 Q: The original account that your wife 3 received? 4 A: No. I was -- I was already up here. 5 When I talked to the SIU, they asked me for it and I said 6 yeah, no problem. So that's when I asked her to get it 7 and it was blanked out. So she asked for a new one. 8 Q: Now you're indicating that someone 9 from the SIU asked you to get a copy of your Bell 10 account? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: When was that? 13 A: I don't know. I -- I'm just -- 14 Q: Can you give me a general time frame? 15 Was it close to -- the September 6th events or -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- much later? 18 A: It was later. 19 Q: And who asked you for that in 20 particular from the SIU? 21 A: It could be Jim. 22 Q: Kennedy? 23 A: Jim Kennedy? 24 Q: And do you know why or what gave rise 25 to -- to the subject of the Bell account?
811 A: Because I kept telling them the story 2 over and over of what I knew. 3 Q: Okay. Did you provide a copy of that 4 blanked out account to the SIU? 5 A: I would think so. 6 Q: Well, when you say I would think so, 7 did you or didn't you? 8 A: I gave them something. I don't know 9 if it was the second one I received and I still wasn't 10 satisfied nor was my wife. So we asked for a third one 11 and that third one is the one we have today. 12 Q: All right. Well, I'm interested in 13 the original account that showed blacked out lines, I 14 assume. 15 A: I'm hoping -- I'm hoping that's the 16 one that the SIU got. 17 Q: Did you give that to them? 18 A: I gave them one. I gave them one. 19 Q: One (1) of them. You can't recall 20 which? 21 A: No, I can't recall. 22 Q: All right. And have you searched 23 your records to see if you have retained either the 24 original or a copy of that September account? Have you 25 looked for it?
821 A: No. 2 Q: You haven't looked for it? 3 A: Oh, well, yeah, we looked for it. 4 But this is ten (10) years down the road, nine (9) years. 5 Q: And so have you been able to find a 6 copy of that original account received in September? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. Did you receive any 9 subsequent accounts from Bell Canada reflecting the 10 September '95 time period? 11 A: Yes. On our third attempt. 12 Q: All right. I would like to show you 13 what appears to be an original copy of a Bell account, 14 account number 5196525103. It's dated September 16, 1995 15 and it's pages 3 of 6 through 6 of 6. Show that to you 16 right now and please advise me if this is a -- if you can 17 recognize that. 18 A: Yes, that's it. Yes. Yes. 19 Q: I would like to make this the next 20 exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-320, Your 22 Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-320. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-320: Bell telephone account number
831 519-652-5103 September 16/'95 2 pages 3 to 6 listing calls 3 from 08/18/'95 to 09/15/'95 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 6 Q: And this is a copy of the account 7 that we distributed yesterday to Counsel. Now you've 8 shown me some other bills and page 1 and 2 of this 9 account has not been produced. 10 Page 1, I understand has the general 11 billing information with Ms. Nicholson's name on it? 12 A: Nicholas, yes. 13 Q: Nicholas, excuse me, all right. Now, 14 as I look at this page 3 of 6, first of all are the 15 collect calls that you testified about receiving the 16 night of September the 6th, 1995, are they reflected on 17 this account? 18 A: No. 19 Q: I note on page 3, there are entries, 20 two (2) entries dated September 6th, one (1) at 19:26 and 21 one (1) at 21:10. It says from local public telephone. 22 Are those entries with respect to those 23 phone calls that you testified about? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And how do you know that?
841 A: Because the times would have been in 2 the 23:00 and 24:00. 3 Q: 24:00? You mean midnight? 4 A: Yeah, well all the way through, yeah, 5 from 11:00 to 12:00 to 12:30 'til 1:00. 6 Q: All right, and so you'd expect to see 7 an entry also from September the 7th on here? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I note that there's a charge of 10 seventy-five (75) cents for these particular phone calls 11 dated September the 6th. 12 What does that tell you, if anything? 13 A: That just tells me that somebody used 14 a public telephone that never had a quarter and when you 15 get -- ask the operator for a connection, they charge you 16 that extra fifty (50) cents. 17 Q: All right, and it says "local public 18 telephone". Would the -- would a telephone booth from 19 Ipperwash be considered local, public? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right, that would be long 22 distance? 23 A: That would be long distance. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
851 Q: All right, now as of September the 2 9th, 1995 then, did you assume the position as head 3 peacekeeper down at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And can you tell me what your prime - 6 - what your primary responsibilities were as head 7 peacekeeper? 8 A: First of all, we asked who's all from 9 which nation, because by then it was building up, it was 10 quite a few natives there. 11 And we put them in their perspective 12 Nations and we pointed them different points around the 13 territory and we held down the Park area. 14 Q: And you say you "held down the Park 15 area", first of all, what were the parameters of the area 16 that you were holding down? 17 A: From, I think, it's Matheson Drive 18 and then the whole Park. 19 Q: Did it include the sandy parking lot 20 area at the corner of Army Camp Road and East Parkway? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did it go beyond Army Camp Road and 23 along East Parkway at all? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: How far?
861 A: About pretty near to the next block. 2 Q: The next -- did it include the 3 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot, located off of 4 East Parkway Drive? 5 A: It was almost to that area. 6 Q: Almost to that area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: But it did not include that area? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Were you going to add 11 something to that? 12 A: I was just going to say that that 13 place was a little touchy at the time. 14 Q: Was sensitive? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. So, then, was that area 17 left, if you will, unregulated by your -- your person -- 18 your team? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. What about the cottages 21 that were located right on the corner there, adjacent to 22 the Park and the sandy parking lot -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- is that -- 25 A: That was --
871 Q: -- was that part of the area that you 2 secured? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can I ask under whose 5 jurisdiction or authority you secured the cottages? 6 A: On behalf of Chief and Council. 7 Q: Okay, of Oneida? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Did you consult at all 10 with the OPP with respect to the propriety of exercising 11 control over other persons cottages? 12 A: Not in the beginning, no. 13 Q: Did you subsequently? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what was the result of that? 16 A: They just asked if they could have a 17 member present when there was a walkthrough to see what 18 condition they were in, and then what condition they were 19 going to be in, in the after. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Whatever time it was. 22 Q: Is that later in September? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And was there any suggestion by the 25 OPP that you -- you shouldn't be patrolling the cottages?
881 A: No. 2 Q: And did you take up residence at the 3 maintenance shed, then, on -- on or about September the 4 9th? 5 A: No, we lived right inside the Park. 6 I never got that residence until, I think it was March 7 the next year. 8 Q: Okay, March of '96? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Were there any rules or 11 bottom-line principles established by you with respect to 12 the types of behaviours and conduct that were appropriate 13 or inappropriate at the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: What were those? 16 A: No drugs, no alcohol, don't go out 17 there without asking, make sure you know where everybody 18 is; you all have a buddy system, you have somebody on 19 your left and somebody on your right. You know who 20 you're with, you know your boundaries and stay within 21 those boundaries. Keep the peace. 22 Q: Now, as head of the peacekeepers and 23 in the role of security, to whom did you report? 24 A: To Bruce Elijah. 25 Q: What was your understanding of his
891 role and why would you report to him? 2 A: Because he's the one that was asked 3 by Stoney Point First Nation and he was acting on behalf 4 of the Natives in everything that was outside; all the 5 meetings with MNR and OPP and the Military. 6 Q: Okay. And you said that one (1) of 7 the measures you -- you instituted in terms of securing 8 the area that you've described was ensuring that you knew 9 who was in and out of the Park and that people would have 10 to check in? 11 A: No, they wouldn't have to check in, 12 just don't go out there -- 13 Q: Just don't go out there? 14 A: -- without -- without -- without me 15 knowing. 16 Q: Yes, okay, without you knowing? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. And did you have any -- 19 any system or systematic way of checking the parameters 20 of the area that you were securing? 21 A: Yes, we had people on there twenty- 22 four (24) hours a day. 23 Q: And were they patrols, essentially? 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: And could you just give me a sense as
901 to what the routine patrols would -- would consist of? 2 A: We'd just go around the outer edge. 3 We had a -- a car with two (2) people that went around 4 the whole territory and check in with the two (2) 5 spokespersons from each nation that had their place, make 6 sure everything was okay. And then we done the same 7 thing in our area, but we -- we continued -- we -- we 8 controlled it constantly. 9 Q: And when you say, "the whole 10 territory," are you including Camp Ipperwash as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. So, the parameters -- do 13 the parameters go out to Outer Drive on one (1) side? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Down to the lake on the other side? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then out to nearly the MNR 18 parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the cottage area? 21 A: That was -- that was in our boundary, 22 yes. 23 Q: And then was it up -- essentially up 24 Army Camp Road to Highway 21? 25 A: Well -- well, ours was from -- to, I
911 think it was Matheson Drive it was called -- 2 Q: Matheson Drive? 3 A: -- and then there was another team, 4 Moraviantown, that was from the corner to the front gate, 5 so they mean the -- the front gates, so if anything went 6 through there, which was hardly likely -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- they would know or we would know. 9 Q: All right. But you had routine 10 patrols, nonetheless, through the Army Camp? 11 A: Oh, yes. 12 Q: And how many people were involved in 13 -- in assisting you with the security detail? 14 A: Everybody. 15 Q: Thirty-six (36) people, then? 16 A: Everybody. I mean the hundred or so 17 that showed up. 18 Q: A hundred? 19 A: Oh, yeah, there was quite a few. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: From all Nations, up north, down 22 south, east. There was a lot of -- a good turnout for 23 the Stoney Point people. 24 Q: All right. And how -- for what -- 25 when -- for what period of time did this system of
921 patrols and securing the territory under your direction, 2 how long did it -- was this in place? 3 A: Until about November. 4 Q: November of '95? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: After that, it was sort of meetings 8 with the OPP and MNR, the Military and they were sort of 9 getting used to what we were doing and who we were and... 10 Q: And at that time -- 11 A: And it was becoming easy for the 12 people that lived there at Stoney Point and there was no 13 more need for that big of a build up. 14 Q: So by the -- by November, in any 15 event, the concerns that you identified on the part of 16 the Stoney Point group with respect to the possibility 17 that the OPP might still be coming to remove them; that 18 had dissipated? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And we've heard evidence that 21 a First Nation investigation team was established. 22 Are you aware of that team? 23 A: I am, yes. 24 Q: And were you a member of the First 25 Nation investigation team that was established?
931 A: I was and I wasn't, but I was in 2 charge of -- I was -- I was lead native investigator. 3 Q: You were lead native investigator? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right, and who appointed you as 6 lead native investigator? 7 A: Terry Doxtator. 8 Q: And who's Terry Doxtator? 9 A: He's from the barrack land, the 10 Chief. 11 Q: He was the -- was he the Chief at the 12 time at Oneida -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- of barrack land? All right, and 15 the investigation that you were the head of, when did 16 that take place? 17 A: Starting on the 10th or 11th or 18 September. 19 Q: Okay. And so was this like a 20 preliminary investigation to the -- to the joint 21 investigation that happened later? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: No?
941 A: No. 2 Q: What -- how would you characterize 3 this? 4 A: It was something that we done for 5 ourselves and for the people of Stoney Point. 6 Q: So it was a First Nation run 7 investigation? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right, and when did that 10 investigation end? 11 A: It's still going on. 12 Q: Okay. Did you have other members who 13 you designated to assist you with this First Nations 14 investigation? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And who were your primary assistants 17 in that respect? 18 A: Well, the ones that walked with me 19 and talked with me was Ben Pouget and Martin Doxtator. 20 The ones in the field was Dwayne Nicholas, Darryl 21 Chrisjohn, Charlie George, those was the ones that I -- I 22 trusted to leave the territory and go out and gather 23 evidence and bring it back. 24 Q: All right, so the role of this 25 investigation -- or the objective of this investigation
951 was to go and collect potential evidence? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you direct how that evidence 4 gathering was to occur? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay, and what direction did you 7 give? 8 A: Well, first of all I asked them to go 9 out and see if they could find out where they were -- 10 where they were, where they were situated, how many there 11 was, if they were still in the area, stay low, come back. 12 Q: And when you say "they", who are you 13 referring to? 14 A: The three: Dwayne Nicholas, Darryl 15 Chrisjohn -- 16 Q: I'm sorry, when you say, "to see if 17 they were still out there" -- 18 A: Oh, the OPP. 19 Q: Okay. Did you have reason to believe 20 they were still around the vicinity? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right, and what else were they to 23 do? 24 A: Just to go out and see what they 25 could do, make -- make me a map and see what I could make
961 of it. 2 Q: And what was supposed to be on this 3 map? 4 A: Areas where they were. 5 Q: Where the police -- 6 A: Where the -- 7 Q: -- were? 8 A: -- OPP were. 9 Q: And where they still were, or where 10 they -- 11 A: Where I thought, maybe, they still 12 might be. 13 Q: Okay. What was the result of this 14 initial -- well, did they walk through the territory then 15 in -- in an effort to determine this? 16 A: Not the territory but outside the 17 territory. 18 Q: Outside the territory? And did they 19 find -- what were the results? 20 A: The results were there was trailers, 21 an ambulance. You could see where they were gathering 22 and having their meetings. And just little things like 23 that. They never brought nothing physical back. Just 24 what they thought in their mind. 25 Q: So they reported to you on -- on
971 trailers and a St. John's Ambulance that was left behind; 2 is that fair? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And did they bring any reports that 5 there were actually -- that they came across any OPP 6 members in these areas? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And do you recall where the -- these 9 trailers and the ambulance where they were left? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Where was that? 12 A: Just up the road in another parking 13 area for MNR. 14 Q: Just off East Parkway Drive? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And was a map actually drawn? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you see that map? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Was it one (1) of the maps that was 21 shown yesterday? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You know where this map is? 24 A: No. It was just a rough sketch on 25 what I wanted them to tell me how far I could let them
981 go. 2 Q: Was anything else marked on the map 3 besides from the -- the vehicles that were located? 4 A: On -- on the map it was marked of 5 three (3) possible places where they -- we called it 6 play. But that's where they stayed. 7 Q: Okay. Over the -- were you believed 8 the OPP officers were positioned? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: During when? 11 A: During days leading up to this. 12 Q: The September 6th? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And this was based on -- 15 on what? 16 A: On what they saw. 17 Q: Okay. What did they see that led 18 them to believe that? 19 A: They found three (3) different areas 20 that were well worked up, padded down. Two (2) high 21 areas, one (1) not so high full of debris from OPP. 22 Q: What was assumed to be from the OPP? 23 A: We assumed it because the paths come 24 from the trailers. 25 Q: The trailers that you found in the
991 MNR parking lot? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Or that your team found. Okay. And 4 just give me a general sense as to what area of land -- 5 where the three (3) areas were that -- that what you 6 assumed were inhabited by police? 7 A: I would say it was about a good 200 8 feet behind those A-frames right directly across from the 9 Park to the left. 10 Q: Okay. And this is across East 11 Parkway -- sorry, across Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. You said that one of the tasks 14 of this team was also to collect potential evidence? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you have any protocols in 17 place for this process of collecting evidence? 18 A: After I found out what they had told 19 me, I told them next take a camera, go through whatever 20 you can, get everything written down, everything, any 21 writing that you see on the blackboards or whatever, I 22 want it. 23 Anything that looks like it's pertaining 24 to the 6th whether it was a planned attack or whatever. 25 Anything at all. Any writing left by the OPP, I want it.
1001 Q: Okay. You wanted it recorded on 2 tape? 3 A: Recorded and brought to me. 4 Q: And brought to you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now did they -- did your team 7 videotape the surrounding area then? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you see that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Were you there with them when it was 12 prepared? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. And were these the tapes that 15 were shown yesterday? 16 A: The one was, yes. 17 Q: Can you recall which one? 18 A: The one right inside the trailer. 19 Q: With the writing on the board? 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: For the record, that was Exhibit P- 25 315. All right. And did they bring you any physical
1011 objects as potential evidence? 2 A: They brought a lot, garbage bags 3 full -- 4 Q: Full of -- 5 A: -- and -- 6 Q: Full of what? I'm sorry. 7 A: Garbage bags, like green -- green 8 garbage bags. 9 Q: Yes, okay. 10 A: Full of different things and a lot I 11 could use and a lot I couldn't and a lot didn't make 12 sense to me at the time, so I asked Terry Doxtator to 13 give me a hand and he looked through some of the stuff 14 that I had and he had a room up here some place and he 15 said, I'll take this and this and this and put it 16 together, so he did. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: He come back the next day and he 19 goes, Holy Jesus. He says, The OPP's are going to be 20 after you and I go, Why and he said, You got their log, 21 you got their -- their maps. He said, You got pretty 22 near everything here that you need and I go, Holy Cow. 23 So, I just put everything away. 24 Q: Now, how many garbage bags were 25 there?
1021 A: Three (3). 2 Q: All right. And were they more or 3 less full? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And were -- were they -- you -- you 6 said there were logs in there and notes, anything else? 7 A: Maps. 8 Q: And maps? 9 A: Different maps of the area, different 10 maps of -- where different teams was they had Alpha, 11 Bravo, Charlie, Delta. I don't know how many were at 12 each site, but they were in different spots. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And was there a -- a log or 14 written record that you saw which -- which showed when 15 these things were found and what specific locations they 16 were retrieved from? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. And what did you do with these 19 three (3) garbage bags? 20 A: I kept them in my trunk. 21 Q: In your trunk? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: How come? 24 A: Because there was nobody I could hand 25 them too, like, there was nobody I could trust. There
1031 was nobody out there because it seemed like at that time 2 everybody was against the Stoney Point people, meaning 3 the Military, the RCMP, and the OPP. 4 Q: So -- so you, at least, didn't feel 5 comfortable in handing over this materials to any of the 6 authorities or policing agencies? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: What about the Aboriginal policing 9 agency? 10 A: No, because I did, I handed over -- 11 because on -- on, I think it was the 10th we noticed some 12 new vans -- at that time new vans were pulling up to the 13 area, the side door would open and about four (4) or five 14 (5) gentlemen from each van would jump out and they were 15 all camouflaged. And they'd run into that field and 16 wait. 17 About a half hour later, they'd come back 18 with garbage bags full of stuff and put in the van and 19 take off. So I said, Well, tomorrow be right there. 20 Take the licence plate numbers, count the people, see if 21 we can get a good look at them, who they were and -- and 22 the next day just like clockwork they showed back up, 23 they got the licence numbers and -- and I gave them to 24 the police and I asked who they were. 25 And they come back to me that evening and
1041 said the licence plates are unobtainable; everything you 2 gave me is no good for nothing. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: And I go, Wow, ain't that something, 5 so right from there I didn't trust them either. 6 Q: And when -- when did this sighting 7 and conversation take place? 8 A: The 10th and 11th. 9 Q: Of September? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. There -- I take it there 12 were no markings on these vans? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And you couldn't tell by the apparel 15 who these people were representing? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. What ultimately became of the 18 garbage bags? 19 A: Like I said, I could use some and I 20 couldn't use some. 21 It was getting to a point where I was 22 scared for myself. I knew the OPP knew I was there, knew 23 I was doing what I was doing and it was getting scarier 24 and scarier. I -- I couldn't even leave the territory. 25 I -- I didn't leave, that's how scared I
1051 was, because I was holding all that stuff. And I think 2 it was the 15th or 16th of September I finally got to 3 meet an SIU and I said, Where are you guys? I read in 4 the paper you're here to investigate and you won't -- you 5 won't even talk to us. What's going on? 6 And he goes, Well, we're -- we're being 7 threatened, we can't talk to you guys. I go, Why? He 8 said, Because you're supposed to be an angry mob with 9 guns and you hate white people. I go, Bullshit, that's 10 not -- that's far from the truth. I said, Who said that? 11 Q: Now, do you know who -- who you had 12 this conversation with? 13 A: Jim Kennedy. 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: Jim Kennedy. 16 Q: Have you met Mr. Kennedy or Officer 17 Kennedy before? 18 A: Never. 19 Q: And how do you know it was him? 20 A: Because I remember him. 21 Q: Did you meet him subsequently, then? 22 A: Yes, I did, the next day. 23 Q: And -- okay. And did he introduce 24 himself -- 25 A: Yes.
1061 Q: -- at some point? All right, well, 2 my question I guess, was: What ultimately happened to 3 the three (3) garbage bags full of maps and notes and 4 logs? 5 A: Eventually, SIU got most of it. 6 Q: You handed them over? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: A lot of the stuff you seen 10 yesterday, those maps and stuff. 11 Q: And to your knowledge, were all of 12 the documents, maps and -- and logs which you received, 13 were all of those provided to the SIU? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you keep carriage of the garbage 16 bags from the time they were handed to you by members of 17 your team? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Do you have any reason to believe 20 that members of your team kept any documents and didn't 21 give them to you? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And who -- who, primarily, was 24 involved in the team that actually went and collected 25 these documents that were in the garbage bags?
1071 A: From SIU? 2 Q: No, no, sorry, from your team. 3 A: Oh, it was Dwayne Nicholas, Darryl 4 Chrisjohn and Charlie George, and I think one (1) time, a 5 guy by the name of Wilf White went. 6 Q: Will? 7 A: Wilf White -- Wilfred White. 8 Q: Okay, okay. Was there any other 9 physical objects which were gathered by members of your 10 team or which you came into possession of, which -- which 11 were ostensibly associated with the events of September 12 the 6th? 13 A: Yes, whisky bottles and the thing 14 that really got my attention was a floppy disk. 15 Q: Floppy disks? 16 A: To a computer. 17 Q: One (1)? 18 A: I -- I did -- yes, one (1). I -- I - 19 - well there was a stack like that, but that went 20 straight into -- that was found inside the command centre 21 or whatever it was called. 22 One (1) that was found in the field come 23 into my possession and I -- I was wondering what that was 24 doing out in the field, that kind of caught my attention. 25
1081 So we had some guys come in from Kahnawake 2 who were -- what you call, hackers? And they played that 3 thing and took them a couple of days to get in, but they 4 got in and they called to me the front where they were 5 doing it and they said, Boy, you guys are bad in your 6 territory. 7 And I go, Why, what do you mean? He goes, 8 look at how many times the TRU team were in your place, 9 and I go, what? And they brought it up on the screen. 10 Five (5) times in March and April, and I told him, I 11 said, No way, because I'm in charge of security on that 12 Nation. 13 I know when a police officer is called, I 14 know when one steps on the territory, I know when they 15 leave. I know everything like that -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: Never has the TRU team came and five 18 (5) times? No way, they're lying. There's something 19 wrong here with this, so we started talking about it and 20 they said, maybe they're using it for their budget. 21 Q: Well, okay, what territory were you 22 referring to? 23 A: Oneida. 24 Q: The Oneida territory, okay. What 25 happened to the floppy disk?
1091 A: I think the SIU got it. 2 Q: Did you hand it over? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right, and did you also come into 5 possession of bullet casings? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And who -- who -- what -- did you 8 send somebody out to look for these things? 9 A: I don't think you had to, like, you 10 didn't have -- I think everybody was doing that, even the 11 OPP. 12 Q: And was it understood that any bullet 13 casings that were found were to be turned over to you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And as a result, did you receive 16 some? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Approximately how many, do you 19 recall? 20 A: I can't answer -- I don't know. 21 Q: All right, was it a lot? 22 A: Some days I'd get three (3) or four 23 (4), some days I'd get twenty (20). 24 Q: Okay. What did you do with these 25 bullet casings as you received them?
1101 A: I put them in separate bags and 2 handed it over to SIU later on. 3 Q: Do you recall what -- what types of 4 bullet casings you received? 5 A: Well there was 9mm, .223's, .38's, 6 .45 and I think a couple of .40 calibres. 7 Q: All right. And -- and are you able 8 to assist me with respect to what types of guns would be 9 used to discharge the 9 mm? 10 A: I think it's their 9mm Glocks, their 11 side arms. 12 Q: You're -- you're-- are you just 13 speculating? 14 A: I'm just speculating. 15 Q: Okay. All right. And you said you 16 put them into separate bags? 17 A: Yeah. Okay. Like if I got some on 18 Monday then they'd be in this bag, if I got some 19 Wednesday, they'd be here. 20 Q: Okay. So you separated them by day 21 received? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And over what period of time did you 24 receive the bulk of the bullet casings? 25 A: The first five (5) days.
1111 Q: Okay. So is that September 9th to 2 14th, that general time period? 3 A: Yes. Yeah. 4 Q: Or 13th or somewhere, okay. And you 5 say that you handed those over as well to the SIU? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And were there any other objects in 8 addition to the bottles, the floppy disk and the bullet 9 casings and the documents that you received? 10 A: Parts of shields, batons, parts of 11 radios, parts of -- just odds and ends but they all 12 belong to the OPP. 13 Q: That was your assumption? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And ultimately all of these objects 16 were handed over by you to the SIU? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now did you have any records of for 19 example, who turned over particular pieces, particular 20 bullet casings and where they were found exactly or -- or 21 did you just receive them and put them into a bag? 22 A: I just received them and put them in 23 a bag. 24 Q: Okay. Do you recall when it was you 25 turned over -- well, let me ask you this. Did you turn
1121 over all of these objects that you collected at once to 2 the SIU? 3 A: No. There was some even the next 4 year. 5 Q: Sorry? 6 A: There was even some the next year. 7 Q: The next year. Okay. But this first 8 lot that you collected or received in September? 9 A: Yes. It was all one (1) day because 10 I tried to -- I tried three (3) times for them to take 11 it. They couldn't touch it. They said they couldn't 12 touch nothing for ninety (90) days or they'd be sued. 13 Q: Do you recall where the transfer of 14 objects took place? 15 A: At the Army Camp. 16 Q: And who set that up? 17 A: I would say it was between the 18 lawyers, Tony Ross and Jim Kennedy and Wayne Allen, Colin 19 Brown, myself and Ben Pouget. 20 Q: Okay. So those were the people 21 present at this exchange? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you receive any written record or 24 receipt with -- 25 A: Yes.
1131 Q: -- respect to what was transferred? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Do you have a copy of -- 4 of that record -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- that you received? Was the 7 transfer videotaped in any way? 8 A: Yes, it was. 9 Q: Did you receive a copy of that 10 videotape? 11 A: I asked for it but I never got it. 12 Q: And who -- who made the -- who made 13 the videotape? 14 A: I think it was the Goldi's. 15 Q: The Goldi's? All right. They were 16 present? 17 A: I think so. I'm positive, yeah. 18 Q: Both John and Joan? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Was there anyone else present? 21 A: Maybe Judas might have been for a 22 couple for things but not -- 23 Q: I'm talking about the transfer of 24 this -- 25 A: Yes.
1141 Q: All right. Okay. And this was done 2 in the presence of -- of Mr. Ross and Mr. Brown? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And who did Mr. Brown represent, if 5 you know? 6 A: The Camp. 7 Q: The Camp? Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, I understand that there was also 12 a videotape made of -- of a tour of the cottages at which 13 Bruce Elijah and Gordon Peters were in attendance. 14 Are you aware of that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Were you present? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And do you recall when that 19 particular videotape was made? 20 A: I can't -- no, I can't remember the 21 day. 22 Q: Can you go to, please, in your book, 23 Tab 12... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1151 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And to page 13, it's Inquiry Document 3 Number 1001791 and the October 14, 1995 entry? 4 A: Was this page 2 or 3? 5 Q: Thirteen (13), I believe. 6 A: There's no page numbers on here. 7 Q: I'm sorry, actually page 12 -- the 8 October 12th, 1995 entry. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Oh, maybe I got the wrong thing here. 13 Q: The -- the last tab of your book, Tab 14 12. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And if you look at the page numbers, 17 it's page 12 and the date is October 12, 1995. 18 A: I don't know if we got the same kind 19 of book, I don't see October. I got page 4 of 15... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: And you'll see the entry at 12:42: 25 "Allen and Millar met with Marvin
1161 Connors, Layton Elijah and viewed 2 videotapes taken by Natives on the 9th 3 of September and the 13th of September 4 in relation to the incident scene. 5 Video 1 taken September 9, 1995 related 6 to OPP van, cottages and ambulance. 7 Video number 2 September 13, 1995 8 related to command post and party 9 place." 10 And do you recall meeting with these 11 gentlemen -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- and viewing these videotapes? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And does this refresh your memory 16 with respect to when the videotape concerning the 17 cottages was recorded? 18 A: Yeah, it would say the next day after 19 we got there. 20 Q: So, September the 9th, 1995 is 21 accurate? 22 A: September 9th, yes. 23 Q: Did you see the -- the second 24 videotape -- or were you present during the recording of 25 the second videotape, which was with respect to the
1171 interior of the command post and then the surrounding 2 area? 3 A: No, but I viewed it. 4 Q: But you did view it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Thank you. 7 Now, you indicated also that there were 8 certain bottles that were located. I think you referred 9 them -- to them as whiskey bottles? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And do you know 12 approximately how many such bottles were located? 13 A: No, I wish -- I wish we would have 14 counted. 15 Q: Did you -- did you actually see these 16 bottles when they were in their original locations? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No? So, this is something that was 19 reported to you afterwards? 20 A: Yes, I made it a point to stay out, 21 because I knew there would be a day in court that I 22 didn't want to be cross-examined saying that I put it 23 there. 24 Q: That you put the bottles there? All 25 right. And what kinds of bottles were -- were reported
1181 to you then? 2 A: Just mostly all whisky, vodka; 3 alcohol, all alcohol. 4 Q: Who reported that to you? 5 A: Darryl Chrisjohn. 6 Q: All right. And did he indicate where 7 it was that he saw these? 8 A: He called it their party place. 9 Q: Well, did he -- did he -- was he more 10 specific as to where these bottles were located, 11 generally? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Where? 14 A: He said out there. 15 Q: Okay. Where's "out there," you have 16 to describe it for the record; what area? 17 A: Behind the A-frame. 18 Q: Behind the A-frame? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And is this in the corner that was 21 bordered by East -- East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 22 Road? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Across from the cottages? 25 A: Yes.
1191 Q: All right. And were any of these 2 bottles provided to you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And approximately -- well, how were 5 they -- how were they given to you, in what kind of 6 container? 7 A: A garbage bag. 8 Q: Garbage bag, and how many garbage 9 bags? 10 A: One (1). 11 Q: One (1), and what did you do with 12 that? 13 A: Threw it in my trunk. 14 Q: Okay. And did you hand these over, 15 also, to the SIU? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: At the same time as you handed over 18 the bullet casings and documents, et cetera? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And did you advise the 21 SIU why it was you were giving to them a bag full of 22 alcohol bottles? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What did you tell them? 25 A: I just told them that I think they
1201 were drinking or drunk. 2 Q: Who? 3 A: The OPP. 4 Q: And what was the basis of -- of your 5 assumption? 6 A: Well, to do something like what you 7 done, I think you have to be not all there or drunk to do 8 that. 9 Q: Is it fair to say that -- that this 10 was an assumption on your part? 11 A: On my part, yes. 12 Q: And because of where you found them? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Or where they were located, 15 ostensibly? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You did not have any forensic 18 evidence suggesting that, in fact, who, if anyone had 19 consumed those bottle -- the alcohol? 20 A: No, no. 21 Q: Or when they were put there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Or when they were consumed? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And what was the -- the reaction of
1211 the SIU to your -- your hypothesis? 2 A: They just said, You're probably 3 right, but you're going to have a hell of a time proving 4 it. 5 Q: Who said that to you? 6 A: Probably Wayne Allen or Jim Kennedy. 7 Q: Now it's important that you do your 8 best to recall who said this to you. 9 A: I wouldn't know, maybe Jim Kennedy, 10 because I had a lot more meetings with Jim Kennedy than 11 Wayne Allen or Stan Thompson or any of the others. 12 Q: Well, did this conversation allegedly 13 occur at the time that you handed over the alcohol 14 bottles and gave them your hypothesis? 15 A: No, no. 16 Q: When did the conversation occur? 17 A: It could have been the first or 18 second meeting I had with them. 19 Q: And when, approximately, was that? 20 A: Maybe about a week to two (2) weeks 21 after I got there. 22 Q: All right. Is this before you handed 23 over the -- the alcohol bottles? 24 A: Oh, yes, a long time. 25 Q: All right, so I just -- we need to be
1221 careful about this conversation; where did this 2 conversation occur? 3 A: It -- it occurred on East Parkway 4 Drive; is that what that's called? 5 Q: The one -- 6 A: The road. 7 Q: -- bordering the cottages and the MNR 8 parking lot? 9 A: Yes, that road but further on down. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: It was Marvin Connors that finally 12 said, I had a talk with the SIU and they're willing to 13 talk to you, and I said, Good, it's about time. 14 But they couldn't come to the Camp, they 15 were under this restraint or this lawsuit, this threat 16 from Kettle Point, Tom Bressette. 17 The SIU was to have nothing to do with us 18 or they'd be sued. So after we cleared that hurdle, we - 19 - I told them everything I knew and thought I knew. And 20 he said, I want somebody else present and we'll go 21 through this again. Tomorrow, one o'clock, I'll pick you 22 up. 23 So they picked me up the next day. It was 24 him and Wayne Allen. Jim Kennedy and Wayne Allen and we 25 went to Kettle Point, the restaurant in Kettle Point and
1231 I briefed them both on what evidence I had and evidence I 2 was still collecting and -- and they told me how to do it 3 right. 4 To use brown paper bags instead of plastic 5 and things like that. They were more or less telling me 6 that it's still good, it's not spoiled in any way. 7 I told them I had some blood samples and 8 they said, It's still good, they have the best scientists 9 in the world and they can tell them what they had for 10 breakfast and that their team was that good. 11 To keep doing what I was doing but to stay 12 low and don't tell too many people what I was doing. 13 Q: So these individuals from the SIU 14 then told you to keep what you were doing, keep doing it 15 carefully, after you briefed them? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then what would happen 18 thereafter, that they would accept the materials or? 19 A: They would after this ninety (90) day 20 -- they had a ninety (90) threat against them. 21 Q: Okay. And at which of these two (2) 22 meetings, did Mr. Kennedy allegedly tell you that he 23 thought your hypothesis about the alcohol might be 24 correct? 25 A: Probably the second.
1241 Q: So in the presence of Wayne Allen? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did Wayne Allen make any response 4 to your hypothesis that -- 5 A: No. He was just shaking his head. 6 Q: Were notes made of this conversation 7 in your presence? 8 A: I -- I would believe so. 9 Q: You believe so? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did you make notes of this? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Now, ultimately, as you've said 14 already, you turned over the various garbage bags 15 including the bag with the liquor bottles; do you recall 16 now what date that was? 17 A: Not without reading it, no. It was 18 kind of long, far off. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall having a 20 meeting with Mr. -- investigators Allen, Wilson, Millar 21 and Kennedy and Colin Brown the lawyer, where you took 22 these investigators through the area and showed them 23 where there were liquor bottles? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Would you look at the same tab, Tab
1251 12, Inquiry Document Number 1001791, dated Saturday, 2 October 14, 1995? So it's page 13, the next page, 8:20 3 a.m. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: "Meet with Colin Brown, Marvin 6 Connors, Layton Elijah and a number of 7 other of Natives who directed us to a 8 wooded area where police were believed 9 to have been utilizing in conjunction 10 with their command post. This area is 11 located just north of Parkview Avenue 12 and runs parallel to Parkview and west 13 from the overflow parking area of to 14 Army Camp Road, a distance of about one 15 quarter (1/4) of a mile." 16 Now did you understand Parkview to be 17 Parkway -- East Parkway Drive; was it called Parkview at 18 that time? 19 A: I don't think so. But it could have 20 been, I -- I -- 21 Q: Is that generally an accurate 22 description though, about a quarter mile -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- from the overflow parking area? 25 And it says:
1261 "Investigators Allen, Wilson, Millar, 2 Kennedy and lawyer Colin Brown, walked 3 through the wooded area with Native 4 Peacekeeper Layton Elijah and three (3) 5 other Natives. 6 Several areas were pointed out which 7 were believed to be of great interest 8 but little value with insufficient 9 support evidence. Many empty liquor 10 bottles were scattered throughout the 11 grounds and long grass in the area the 12 police were believed to be occupying 13 for some period of time prior to the 14 incident at which times they pulled 15 out." 16 Now I should indicate that this is an SIU 17 report, but do you recall, then, taking this 18 investigators on that day through the area at which there 19 were empty liquor bottles? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall that, in fact, the 22 reaction of those investigators, including Mr. Kennedy, 23 was that they did not -- that there were -- that they did 24 not support or at least have enough evidence to support 25 your hypothesis?
1271 A: I didn't believe that they thought 2 that way, but maybe they did. 3 Q: To carry on in this passage, it 4 indicates that this area was videotaped by investigator 5 Don Miller. 6 Does that accord with your recollection 7 that -- that one (1) of the SIU investigators did? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Then it says: 10 "At 12:30 attend back at Canadian 11 Forces Base on Army Camp Road re: 12 interviews with Natives who wish to 13 give statements. Some problems were 14 encountered in locating the Natives for 15 interviews. The male in charge of 16 looking after the Natives for 17 interviews was Les." 18 Q: Would that have been Les Jewel? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Continues: 21 "It was also mentioned by Marvin 22 Connors that Layton Elijah was somewhat 23 displeased by our lack of interest 24 concerning the large amount of empty 25 liquor bottles located in the wooded
1281 area believed to be occupied by the 2 police prior to the incident in 3 question. 4 Once the evidentiary value was 5 explained to the Natives and why by 6 Wayne Allen and Don Miller, they 7 accepted this explanation without 8 further question." 9 Now, does that refresh your memory -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- that you were displeased on that 12 day at the SIU investigators' lack of interest in the 13 liquor bottles and what they might mean? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And that included Jim 16 Kennedy; correct? 17 A: All of the -- yeah. 18 Q: And did you, in fact, accept the 19 explanation as to why the liquor bottles were not of 20 sufficient evidentiary value? 21 A: They -- they said something, yeah, 22 and I said, Okay. 23 Q: And was the explanation that they had 24 been contaminated; in other words, that they have been 25 left in a field for some several weeks and had not been
1291 preserved? 2 A: Maybe those ones. 3 Q: Well, was that their explanation? 4 A: Yeah, but the ones I had, they were 5 taken right away. 6 Q: All right. Did you ever receive any 7 report or advice back from any of the SIU investigators 8 resulting any -- resulting in any -- from any follow-up 9 from the alcohol bottles that you handed over to those 10 investigators in the garbage bag? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. To you knowledge was any 13 forensic evidence or test, I should say, conducted on 14 those? 15 A: Yes, I would think so. 16 Q: No, do -- do have any knowledge? 17 A: No, I don't know, no, I wasn't there. 18 Q: All right. Fair enough. 19 Now, you indicated earlier that there was 20 another time at which you handed over further objects 21 that was -- were potential evidence from the sandy 22 parking lot area? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And do you recall when that occurred? 25 A: August the next year.
1301 Q: '96? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Do you recall the precise 4 date? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Do you recall what it was that was 7 located? 8 A: It was some .38 shells, cartridges, 9 empties, casings. 10 Q: All right. Were you present at the 11 time that they were located? 12 A: I was present when the -- yeah. 13 Q: Okay. Who -- was anyone else 14 present? 15 A: Pierre George and Buck Doxtator. 16 Q: And where were these located? 17 A: Right at the arbour. 18 Q: For -- for Dudley George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Is that near the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Yeah it is. 22 Q: And how many shells were located? 23 A: I thought there was four (4), but I 24 guess there's three (3). 25 Q: Okay. Do you remember who found
1311 them? 2 A: Pierre found the first one. 3 Q: And who found the other two (2)? 4 A: It's a toss-up. Just -- they were 5 all found there. 6 Q: Okay. And why were you -- you there 7 with Mr. Doxtator and Mr. George? 8 A: The -- the place had been vandalized, 9 some people disrespected the place and we were just 10 sprucing it back up and getting it ready for a first-year 11 ceremony. 12 Q: Okay. There was going to be a first- 13 year -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- ceremony to honour Dudley George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did you turn over these bullet 18 casings to the SIU? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And were you interviewed by the SIU 21 in that respect? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And would you go to Tab 4. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1321 Q: This is Inquiry Document Number 2 1002301, and were you -- were you interviewed on the same 3 day that you handed over the bullet shells? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: The casings? And this indicates that 6 the interview was done on August the 12th, 1996; does 7 that sound about right to you then? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And were you provided 10 with any written receipt or acknowledgement of the fact 11 that you had handed over bullet casings? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Would you go to Tab 5, please? It's 14 Inquiry Document Number 1001772. This appears to be a 15 copy of a handwritten note, headed by "95-PFD-130" and 16 dated 2:10 p.m., August 12, 1996. 17 Is that your signature at the bottom -- 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: -- of the page? And did Jim Kennedy 20 sign this document as well, in your presence? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And it indicates that he received 23 three (3) silver casings, Number 1, W and W, .38 Special 24 (centre fire)? 25 A: Yes.
1331 Q: Can you tell me what "W and W" means? 2 A: Haven't got a clue. 3 Q: Okay. Number 2, it says "the same", 4 in other words a second one like that. Is that right? 5 Is that right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the third bullet casing is 8 described as a "W-Super W .38 special centre fire." 9 Again is -- was that the third bullet casing you handed 10 over? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: I'd like to make that the next 13 exhibit, please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-321, your Honour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 321. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-321: Document 1001772, 95-PFD-130, 18 12 Avenue 96, 3 Silver 19 casings turned over to 20 Investigator Jim 21 Kennedy by Layton Elijah. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Are those the only two (2) meetings, 25 then, at which you turned over all of the objects that
1341 were collected by you or members of your team, relating 2 to your investigation? 3 A: Yes, I think so, all except for a 4 tire. 5 Q: Sorry? 6 A: All except for a tire. 7 Q: Except for a tire? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: A tire later on. 11 Q: Okay. And in fairness, the second 12 meeting wasn't the result of an invest -- of your 13 investigation team, it was something that you had 14 happened -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- upon when you were repairing the 17 arbour? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Now, were you also aware that 20 a joint police aboriginal investigation took place? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And this, of course, was different 23 from the internal te -- First Nation investigation that 24 you headed? 25 A: Yes.
1351 Q: Were you involved in the joint police 2 aboriginal investigation? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Were you apprised of the efforts of 5 those investigators? 6 A: Apprised? 7 Q: Yes, in other words, were you kept up 8 to date as to what they were doing? 9 A: Oh, yeah, yes. 10 Q: And why would that be? 11 A: Probably because I asked. 12 Q: Okay. Now, were there, to your 13 knowledge, any written guidelines or protocols which were 14 established which governed the relationship of the 15 aboriginal investigators with the SIU and the OPP? 16 A: I would think so, yeah. 17 Q: All right, but were these ones that - 18 - that you were aware of at the time? 19 A: I'd have to say no. 20 Q: Okay, fair enough. Perhaps you'd 21 just go to Tab 2 and this is Exhibit P-218 or Inquiry 22 Document Number 6000335. 23 Now, this is the three (3) day joint 24 investigation and Page 3 and 4 and 5 appears to be the 25 Memorandum of Understanding between the First Nations
1361 people at Stoney Point and the Ontario Provincial Police 2 on conditions for conducting a joint identification 3 investigation of the physical site and circumstances 4 relating to the death of Anthony Dudley George and 5 related incidents. 6 I just wanted to ensure that you've never 7 seen this document before. At least you didn't see it at 8 the time? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So you didn't see it, correct? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. Did you, 13 eventually, as head Peacekeeper, enter into any 14 understandings with either the OPP or the SIU, concerning 15 the patrolling that you were conducting of the parameter? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Were there any circumstances 18 in which either members of the OPP and members of the SIU 19 were entitled and able to go into the Park, under your 20 watch? 21 A: In the beginning it was the Native 22 police could. We were welcoming the SIU but they never 23 showed up. The OPP was to stay back for a while. 24 Q: And the Native police, can you tell 25 me what policing service provided or services provided
1371 the Native police that were welcome? 2 A: I think it was called the Anishnaabeg 3 Police. 4 Q: Policing service? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that was -- that service was from 7 another area outside of -- of Southwestern Ontario? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And what was your relationship 10 with them? 11 A: They would just come and ask 12 different things on different occasions, like, don't 13 shine the lights at the OPP no more. They were like a 14 mediator, like a liaison from the OPP to us and we were 15 the same going back the other way. 16 Q: All right. And how long did this 17 arrangement last where the Anishnaabeg police acted as a 18 liaison, if you will, between your peacekeepers and the 19 OPP? 20 A: I -- I don't -- I can't -- I don't 21 know. It was a while but I don't know. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I can't say. 24 Q: All right. For a while? 25 A: For a while.
1381 Q: Did it occur over September and 2 October at least? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And in order for the 5 Anishnaabeg Police to come onto the Park or into the area 6 that you were patrolling, did they require your 7 permission? 8 A: No. We just had times set up. Like 9 they'd say, We'll meet you at ten o'clock the next day. 10 Fine, I'll meet you at ten o'clock. 11 Q: Okay. And would that happen 12 typically inside the Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And how would you 15 describe your -- your relations with the Anishnaabeg 16 Police, during this time period? 17 A: We could see eye to eye, no problem. 18 Q: All right. And were there any 19 exceptions to this generally good relationship? 20 A: Yes, just once, just -- but it was 21 actually the OPP, but we thought he was RCMP, and that 22 was Jim Potts. 23 Q: All right. Tell me what -- what 24 those circumstances involved. 25 A: I think they knew that we were
1391 investigating and I think they knew -- 2 Q: I'm sorry. What are you saying? 3 A: I think they knew -- 4 Q: Okay. Are you speculating right now? 5 A: Is that what you want me to say? 6 Q: I don't want you to speculate. I 7 want you just to tell me about these circumstances 8 involving -- that you're referring to involving Jim 9 Potts. 10 A: Okay. I just -- I'm not speculating 11 I'm just telling you that Jim Potts hates us, that he was 12 very voiceful and hatred. He wanted to -- he said my 13 name and he -- I wasn't going to leave the Park alive, 14 because I was investigating his men. 15 And it was always his men, so I figured 16 him to be the top dog. 17 Q: Now, did you know Jim Potts prior to 18 this -- 19 A: No, I never set eyes on him before in 20 my life. 21 Q: All right. And how did -- what 22 circumstances gave rise to this conversation? 23 A: Like I was saying, but you called it 24 speculating -- 25 Q: No, I --
1401 A: -- so I better not speculate. 2 Q: Well, I didn't intend to -- it's just 3 the way you started off. You said, "I think," so -- 4 A: It was because of the bottles. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: He was blaming us for putting those 7 on TV, trying to put them on TV. And he was saying, My 8 men were not drunk that night, if you continue to say 9 that my men were drinking, you will never leave this Park 10 alive. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: And we parted ways right there. 13 Q: Where -- where did this conversation 14 occur? 15 A: In the Park, right at the bridge. 16 Q: At the bridge? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Was there anyone else present, aside 19 from yourself and Jim Potts? 20 A: Glenn Bannon. He was in charge of 21 Anishnaabeg police and Ben Pouget. 22 Q: Do you recall, approximately, what 23 day this conversation occurred? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1411 A: Oh, Jeez, it was -- it was before we 2 started handing back stuff, so it must have been about 3 the 15th. 4 Q: Of September? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Before you handed the garbage bags 7 over to the SIU? 8 A: No, no -- 9 Q: I'm sorry -- 10 A: -- that wasn't until December -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: -- no, we started giving stuff back 13 to them on -- during our meetings. Like we were getting 14 to trust each other, to know each other, the OPP, we were 15 starting to have working dialogue. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And were you involved in -- in the 20 earlier discussions in which you -- this working dialogue 21 was being built with the OPP? 22 A: I was present at a couple of 23 meetings, but to say I was lead, no. 24 Q: Okay. Now, you said you thought that 25 Jim Potts was from the RCMP?
1421 A: Yes. 2 Q: And why did you think that? 3 A: Something I read. 4 Q: Something you read? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was the Jim Potts that you met with, 7 native or non-native? 8 A: I believe he was native, but I'm not 9 sure. 10 Q: And when he referred to, "My men," 11 what did you understand him to be referring to, which -- 12 which men? 13 A: The police, the OPP. 14 Q: All right. So at that time, did you 15 form any impressions as to what police force he was from? 16 A: No, not really, no. I thought all 17 police were police. 18 Q: All right. And was this a planned 19 meeting? 20 A: Yes. Not with Jim Potts. 21 Q: Not with Jim Potts? 22 A: No, he -- he -- 23 Q: Okay , well, what -- 24 A: -- surprised us by getting there. 25 Q: Well, that's -- what -- what was the
1431 meeting -- it was a planned meeting time? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And who were you expecting to meet? 4 A: Glenn Bannon. 5 Q: All right. And what was Glenn 6 Bannon's reaction, so far as you could observe, to the 7 statements that you have attributed to Jim Potts? 8 A: I -- we never talked, you know, but I 9 could see it in his face that he knew that he thinks the 10 time has come for us to -- to cut ties off, and that they 11 overstepped their boundaries right there. 12 Q: He didn't say anything to you? 13 A: No, he never said a thing. 14 Q: And did Mr. Pouget say anything at 15 this conversation? 16 A: Well, yeah, he was mostly always just 17 blaming the police, like -- 18 Q: No, Mr. -- 19 A: -- he's like that. 20 Q: Okay, all right. And did -- was 21 anything else discussed or raised over the course of this 22 conversation other than the -- the words that you've 23 attributed to -- to Jim Potts? 24 A: No. Just that Ben just says, I 25 wouldn't want to be in your shoes, man.
1441 Q: Who said that? 2 A: Ben, to me. 3 Q: How long did this conversation last? 4 A: Not even five (5) minutes. 5 Q: And how far away from you from Mr. 6 Potts were you when this conversation occurred? 7 A: Three (3), 4 feet. 8 Q: And what was your reaction to Jim 9 Potts? 10 A: I wanted to say something but I 11 thought better of it. I didn't say nothing, I just 12 looked at him in surprise. 13 Q: And what if anything happened after 14 Jim Potts said his piece? 15 A: Nothing. They just jumped in their 16 truck and took off, left. 17 Q: And what kind of vehicle did they 18 arrive in? 19 A: A 4x4. 20 Q: And was it marked? 21 A: No. 22 Q: It was an unmarked vehicle? 23 A: Unmarked but it had a white hanky or 24 whatever on the antenna. 25 Q: I'm sorry, a white?
1451 A: All of their vehicles always had to 2 have a white flag, all of them. 3 Q: Okay. The Anishnaabeg vehicle -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- so that you would know -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- it was Anishnaabeg? Okay. And do 8 you have any idea as to how Jim Potts knew about the 9 alcohol bottles and your theory in relation to the 10 alcohol bottles? 11 A: I think they just have good 12 intelligence, they're the OPP. 13 Q: Have you disclosed the fact of the 14 alcohol bottles to anyone in the SIU or the OPP or the 15 Anishnaabeg police at the time of this conversation? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Were you surprised that the lack of - 18 - lack of reaction by Glenn Bannon? 19 A: No, I just seen that he was startled 20 by it. I know it wasn't planned. I mean by him anyway. 21 I could tell that, that he was surprised. 22 Q: Now it's obvious that at the time of 23 this encounter from what you've said, there had not been 24 any attempts to prove that the alcohol bottles -- or who 25 had consumed the alcohol from the alcohol bottles;
1461 correct? 2 A: No. 3 Q: The -- at this time you just had a 4 theory? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And the area that the 7 alcohol bottles had been acquired from had been unsecured 8 from at least September the 7th until the time that you 9 attended? 10 A: Yes, but that never had nothing to do 11 with us picking it up. 12 Q: I appreciate that. 13 A: We picked up ours up early. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: That meeting that you see on the 16 tape, that was -- even I didn't expect it to be there. 17 Q: Mr. Elijah, is it not possible that - 18 - that Jim Potts was concerned that, as yet unproven, 19 allegations against his colleagues which could be highly 20 damaging to their reputations might -- were being made 21 prematurely? 22 A: You could say that. 23 Q: And that he wanted to ensure that 24 allegations not be made public until there had been some 25 proper investigation?
1471 A: Well, he didn't ask in a nice way 2 like that. 3 Q: And you indicated you hadn't met Jim 4 Potts prior to this encounter? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you meet with him subsequently? 7 A: No. Well, once more he was in the 8 dining hall, it was a year or two later road. Him and 9 Glenn Bannon again and probably three (3) or four (4) 10 more Anishnaabeg police and -- and that's when they first 11 wanted to form a police force for Kettle Point. And they 12 wanted to take Stoney Point on board and it was a no. 13 Q: And at that time, was Jim Potts 14 identified to you as an OPP officer? 15 A: Yes, he was. 16 Q: Now, did Jim Potts, in any way, 17 follow up on the words that you've attributed to him? 18 A: He must have because he still 19 remembered that two (2) years down the road and he jumped 20 up in that meeting and he's the one that destroyed the 21 meeting. 22 Q: What do you mean? 23 A: He -- he jumped up and started 24 hollering, Who the hell wants to work with you guys 25 anyway or -- or something to that effect. He -- he's not
1481 a very good spokesperson for the OPP. 2 Q: And this meeting happened when, 3 approximately? 4 A: A year, or maybe even two (2) years 5 after in the dining hall. 6 Q: So, '96 or '97 -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- in the dining hall at Kettle 9 Point, did you say? 10 A: No, Stoney Point. 11 Q: Stoney Point? All right. And who 12 else was at this meeting? 13 A: There was a whole community or pretty 14 well the whole 80 percent of all the residents at the 15 Camp. 16 Q: And were there any other 17 representatives from the OPP there? 18 A: I would think there was and there was 19 Anishnaabeg police and I think Miles was there -- Miles 20 Bressette -- because Miles Bressette was the one that 21 said, You are just trying to take over policing. You're 22 coming to this area looking for more jobs or a longer arm 23 and you're not welcome. 24 Q: Was the purpose or one (1) of the 25 purposes of this meeting, then, to discuss the -- the
1491 issue of policing within the Stoney Point Territory? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And did you say Glenn 4 Bannon was there as well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was anyone from the Kettle and Stony 7 Point Band there? 8 A: Yes, I said Miles Bressette. 9 Q: Miles Bressette? He -- was he a 10 police officer at the time, though? 11 A: Yes, he was. 12 Q: Okay. But Jim Potts never -- never 13 followed through on any alleged threats, in other words, 14 he never approached you again or caused you any harm? 15 A: No, but wherever I go, and even when 16 I went home this last year, I made it public that I don't 17 drink, I don't do drugs, so if I'm found dead and if 18 that's in my system, I never put it there. I don't 19 believe in guns, so if I'm shot, I'm not guilty. I won't 20 run from police, so if they say it's a police chase, I'm 21 not guilty. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: That whatever happens to me from here 24 on in, I'm telling you that right now, I will not run, I 25 don't do drugs, and I don't believe in guns.
1501 Q: Okay. Now, following this 2 conversation on the bridge in September of '95, did you 3 make any complaints to either the OPP or this SIU? 4 A: To the SIU I did, but to the OPP, no. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Or the RCMP, no, or to the Military, 7 no. There -- at that time there was no police force that 8 was willing to even work with us, talk with us, nothing. 9 Holding all that evidence was the scariest thing in my 10 life and I've been against some difficulties in my life. 11 That was the worst, because you didn't know where they 12 were going to come from. 13 Q: And when did you make the complaint 14 to the SIU about this conversation? 15 A: Gees, I don't know. 16 Q: How long after the -- the 17 conversation did you do that? 18 A: Did I do that? 19 Q: Did you make a complaint, yeah. 20 A: It could have been our third or 21 fourth meeting. 22 Q: With whom? 23 A: Geez, it's -- it's hard to say. 24 Q: Do you remember who -- who you 25 communicated the complaint to?
1511 A: No. 2 Q: All right. Would it likely have been 3 one (1) of the four (4) individuals who you typically met 4 with? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And so that would include Kennedy? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Allen? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Wilson? 11 A: Yes, and Thompson. 12 Q: And Thompson, thank you. And was 13 this complaint put into writing? 14 A: Not from me no, I just told them 15 verbally. 16 Q: All right. What was the reaction of 17 the investigators to your advice? 18 A: Keep your head low, buddy. 19 Q: Did they advise you that they would 20 be taking any follow-up steps to pursue what you had told 21 them? 22 A: No. 23 Q: To you knowledge was any 24 investigation or follow-up steps taken to what you 25 reported was said to you by Jim Potts?
1521 A: I don't know. 2 Q: Okay. Did this topic ever arise 3 again? 4 A: Oh, yeah. Well, to me, yeah, I -- I 5 told everybody, but as far as -- no, not in public. 6 Q: Okay. And so, then, the matter was 7 more or less dropped at that point by you? 8 A: It was dropped, but not forgotten. 9 Q: All right. Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know 11 you're not quite finished, but I think this might be a 12 good place to take our lunch break. I know you don't 13 have a great deal -- 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, thank you. 15 This is an appropriate place, thank you, Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We'll take the lunch 18 break. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 20 adjourned until 1:30. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 12:12 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
1531 resumed, please be seated. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good afternoon. 5 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Mr. Elijah, I understand that as of 9 the fall of '95, at least as it progressed, the need to 10 winterize the Park became an issue. 11 To your knowledge was the Park winterized 12 that winter? 13 A: Yes, it was. 14 Q: Did you have any process in that -- 15 sorry, any involvement in that process? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: What was your involvement? 18 A: Well, it was first just talked about 19 and then a meeting was set up with MNR and OPP and the 20 Camp. MNR was concerned for their safety so they had OPP 21 present. I -- I think that the gentleman's name was 22 Hudson, and he was the liaison from the OPP to the 23 Natives and he's a good man. 24 Anyways, he was present, Les Kobayashi, 25 myself, Les Jewel and the workers for MNR.
1541 Q: And just for the record, MNR is the 2 Ministry of Natural Resources? 3 A: Yes, it is. 4 Q: Okay. And you indicated that the MNR 5 had safety concerns for their employees going into the 6 Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did the Stoney Point people have 9 any concerns with respect to the -- the MNR people coming 10 into the Park? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And how were -- were these concerns 13 ultimately resolved? 14 A: Oh, yeah, yes, they were. 15 Q: And how were they resolved? 16 A: That I was to -- to be with them with 17 -- through the -- with the -- through the walkthrough, 18 and the same with Les Jewel. 19 Q: Les Jewel? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And were members of the OPP allowed 22 to accompany you? 23 A: Hudson, I -- I believe and one (1) 24 more, but I don't know his name. 25 Q: All right. And do you recall how
1551 many meetings you had prior to the winterization of the 2 Park being done? 3 A: Two (2). Well, there was that 4 meeting right there, but I had two (2) subsequent 5 meetings with Les Kobayashi myself. 6 Q: Okay. Do you recall when the meeting 7 with the broader group, the OPP, the MNR and yourselves, 8 when that took place? 9 A: In November, 1995. 10 Q: And I wonder if you would go to Tab 6 11 of your brief of documents. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: This is Inquiry Document Number 14 1008977. It appears to be an e-mail addressed to Peter 15 Sturdy from Les Kobayashi dated November 24, 1995 and it 16 reflects a meeting at the Kettle Point and Stoney Point 17 police station at 12:00 noon on that day. And amongst 18 others, that yourself, a Detective Sergeant Speck -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- Les Kobayashi and Les Jewel are in 21 attendance at this particular meeting. Is this one (1) 22 of the meetings at which the winterization process was 23 discussed? 24 A: Yes, that was the first one. 25 Q: The first one? Okay. And it would
1561 appear that there was a plan to have a -- there was a 2 meeting later that afternoon at three o'clock for -- for 3 the walkthrough; or at least that there was a meeting at 4 Camp Ipperwash at three o'clock that day? 5 Do you recall? 6 A: No, not to my recollection, not the 7 same day, no. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: Not the walkthrough, itself. 10 Q: Okay. And I note there were 11 particular conditions that were agreed upon as 12 preconditions to the winterization of the Park. 13 One (1) was that there would be no MNR, 14 Stoney Pointers, OPP, or public would be allowed in to 15 the Park? 16 A: OPP what? Allowed in the Park? 17 Q: Yes. It says: 18 "Ipperwash Park would be unoccupied 19 until March." 20 A: Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah. 21 Q: So now the Peacekeepers were 22 obviously allowed in the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And that an OPP officer and a 25 Kettle Point police officer would be in attendance at all
1571 times during the course of the winterization, as well as 2 yourself. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that was to ensure the safety of 5 the staff of the MNR? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: There was also an agreement that 8 there would be a videotaping of the Park that would be 9 allowed on that day? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And was that by -- going to be by the 12 police or the MNR? 13 A: I believe it was the police. 14 Q: And was that to record the condition 15 of the -- the Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And there was a consideration of the 18 fencing of the concession site and then the main gate 19 site if it was deemed to be a hazardous situation? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: "The fencing of the roadway or access 22 point to the beach and Dudley George's 23 grave site was -- was discussed." 24 Do you know what the result of that 25 discussion was? Was it permitted --
1581 A: Everything to be fenced off. 2 Q: Okay. 3 "And that the Park sign then posted 4 'Closed' was acceptable to all parties"? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. I'd like to make that the next 7 exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-322, Your Honour. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. P-322. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-322: Document 1008977 e-mail 13 November 24/'95 01:18 p.m., 14 to Peter Sturdy from Les 15 Kobayasai, MNR-Parks & 16 Recreation re: Ipperwash 17 Issue Meeting November 24/'95 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 20 Q: You indicated that you also had 21 meetings with Les Kobayashi alone? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: And how many such meetings or 24 discussions did you have with him alone? 25 A: I had two (2) alone, two (2) with
1591 other people. 2 Q: Okay. And was one with the other 3 people, the November meeting we just reviewed? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And when was the other meeting 6 that included other people, do you recall? 7 A: December 3rd. 8 Q: December the 3rd. And how do you 9 know it was December the 3rd? 10 A: Because that was the day of the 11 walkthrough. 12 Q: Okay. Was that also the day that the 13 Park was winterized? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now the two (2) conversations that 16 you had alone with Les Kobayashi, do you recall when they 17 occurred relative to the December 3rd '95 walkthrough? 18 A: One (1) was about two (2) weeks 19 before that, and he picked me up at the Park and asked if 20 I wanted to go for a ride. I said, Sure. And we went 21 along the beach towards I think it's called Arbour Acres 22 or something -- some restaurant down in the beach way and 23 towards Kettle Point about halfway. 24 And that's where he just stopped and just 25 told me his life, his -- how he was growing up and how he
1601 liked his job, how he was racially attacked at school 2 growing up, how he made it through it. Just everything 3 like personal like that. 4 And he was -- at the same time he was 5 gathering information or intelligence from me on the 6 Mohawk Warriors. And were they present at the Park, had 7 they been there, are they going to come there, everything 8 was Warrior based, all these questions. And so I knew he 9 was -- he was looking for something. I couldn't give him 10 what he wanted. 11 So we just started to build a relationship 12 from there. And I told him how I was brought up and what 13 I believed in and how I lived to how I was that day and 14 how I became who I was that day and how long I was, who I 15 was that day. 16 And we just said, do you want to meet 17 again, and -- and we did. We just met again about a week 18 later. We went for another ride, same place, down the 19 beach way. This time he went a little further into his 20 childhood saying that he could understand how we felt at 21 the Park, how racist people are towards to people, and he 22 was glad that I wasn't like that. 23 And I told him the same thing; I said I'm 24 always involved with different cultures, it's just not 25 native. I have to keep this front; it's true, I'm not
1611 racist, I never will be. I'm glad you caught on and that 2 was about it, that was the extent of our second visit. 3 Q: Okay, and just for further 4 clarification, what else did he -- did he share anything 5 particular about his background, other than he had been 6 the subject of racial comments or treatment? 7 A: No, that was about the -- that was -- 8 Q: The extent of it? 9 A: He was quite clear on that. 10 Q: All right, so these were basically 11 two (2), can I call them personal visits? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And in relation to the questions that 14 Mr. Kobayashi asked you about the Warrior Society, how 15 did you respond to his questions about whether they -- 16 the Warrior Society was present or would be coming? 17 A: I just told him that what he read or 18 heard about the warriors was probably from Mohawk nation, 19 and they developed it and they carry it to this day and, 20 like, when people say Mohawks or warriors, they think of 21 all nations and that's not it. 22 And I told him that, No, there is no 23 Mohawks in the Park or on the territory, they weren't 24 expected, either. 25 Q: Okay. And you had a third
1621 conversation, as I understand it, with Mr. Kobayashi? 2 A: Yes, the third time was -- 3 Q: Can you just -- before you move on, 4 can you tell me the date of that conversation -- the 5 third private, not private but -- conversation you had 6 with just him alone? 7 A: December 3rd. 8 Q: December the 3rd. 9 A: 1995. 10 Q: All right. And I'm going to ask you 11 some questions about this particular conversations, but I 12 understand that there are -- there may be an objection? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 17 Roebuck...? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We're just going to 19 have a -- Mr. Elijah, we're going to have a discussion 20 about this situation. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay, no problem. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay, go ahead. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1631 MR. DAVID ROEBUCK: My Friend, actually, 2 all My Friends have been alerted that this -- this would 3 be an issue and the -- the basis has been described to 4 them. 5 We have the benefit of having some advance 6 information about the -- the evidence of the witnesses 7 and, because I'm objecting to the -- this -- only this 8 aspect of Mr. Elijah's testimony, I think it's necessary 9 for me to put, at least in a generic sense, what I 10 understand to be the -- the evidence that's being -- 11 that's being proffered. 12 The -- this -- this evidence deals with a 13 conversation approximately three (3) months after the 14 shooting of Dudley George on or about December 3rd, 1995, 15 where the Witness has a conversation with Mr. Kobayashi. 16 And the -- as I understand the 17 anticipated evidence, Mr. Elijah elicits an opinion from 18 Mr. Kobayashi as to who was responsible for the shooting 19 of Dudley George. Mr. Kobayashi expresses a type of 20 opinion or a conclusion and goes on to explain that the 21 basis for his opinion or his conclusion, relates to -- 22 flows from his immediate superior, his boss. 23 And for purposes of making the analogy, 24 I'm going to say Mr. -- Mr. Kobayashi I'll call "X", his 25 boss is "Y" and he says that -- Mr. Kobayashi says that
1641 his boss told him about a meeting, and about a purported 2 direction or order said to be given by an individual I'll 3 call "Z" for purposes of -- of my submissions, and a 4 direction or order said to be given by "Z" relative to 5 the facts that are at issue in this Hearing. 6 Mr. Elijah's apparently acknowledged to 7 Counsel or the Commission that Mr. Kobayashi didn't 8 directly say that his boss was present at a meeting with 9 "Z", although that was his assumption. 10 And so the -- the importance of that, in - 11 - in my submission, is that it leaves open the 12 possibility that, not only is this information third 13 hand, it may -- it may be fourth hand without 14 interviewing and -- and getting the information of Mr. 15 Kobayashi's boss, who I've called "Y" in this equation. 16 We -- we don't know whether this is third hand or fourth 17 -- fourth hand. 18 Counsel for Mr. Kobayashi -- Counsel 19 that's representing his interests in this Inquiry, were 20 alerted to the evidence that was going to be proffered by 21 this Witness. They interviewed Mr. Kobayashi. 22 I understand that the Commission Counsel 23 have interviewed him, but not on this particular point, 24 so there's no issue that he's not cooperating, but it 25 appears that he was never asked these particular
1651 questions and answers. 2 And what we anticipate will be the case 3 based on the information from Counsel is that Mr. 4 Kobayashi will deny making any such statement to Mr. 5 Elijah. So, the -- the -- not only is the information on 6 this point at least three (3) times removed, but the 7 immediate source denies making the -- the statement. 8 The -- the situation that confronts us on 9 this issue is analogous to a fact situation that led to a 10 ruling of Mr. Justice Wright in the Inquiry into the 11 matters relating to the death of Neil Stonechild. And I 12 believe I gave Mr. Millar the excerpt so that it could be 13 available to you, sir. 14 Do -- reading from pages 87 and 88 from an 15 Appendix to the report, and this is a Ruling with respect 16 to a request to call certain witnesses. And just to -- 17 to briefly set up the fact situation, there was a -- 18 there was a proposed witness, Butler, who said that 19 another proposed witness, Bluewater, who in my analogy, 20 I'll call "A" -- I'm going to call the links in the chain 21 "A", "B" and "C", witness Bluewater is -- is the first 22 step removed from the Witness that was proffered. 23 The Witness Bluewater, says that -- "A" 24 says that she was told by a Lucinda Smith Pratt, who I'll 25 call "B", that Lucinda Smith Pratt had made statements in
1661 the past that her husband Gary Pratt, who I'll call "C", 2 had admitted that he was involved in the death of Neil 3 Stonechild. 4 And at the time that the matter came 5 before the Public Inquiry, Lucinda Smith Pratt, "B" in my 6 equation, had retracted that statement. She said that 7 she was distressed at the time of making it and that she 8 was angry at her husband. 9 And so the -- that's the -- that's the 10 summary of the fact situation. The ruling is as follows: 11 "The Saskatoon City Police Association 12 apply to call three (3) witnesses, 13 Maggie Bluewaters, Judy Butler, and 14 Lucinda Smith-Pratt. 15 The application was based upon 16 information gathered by the RCMP from 17 Ms. Butler and Ms. Bluewaters. These 18 individuals informed the RCMP of 19 statements that Lucinda Smith-Pratt had 20 allegedly made in the past which 21 suggested that her husband, Gary Pratt 22 had admitted to her that he was 23 involved with the death of Neil 24 Stonechild. 25 In her interview with the RCMP, Lucinda
1671 Smith-Pratt denied making such 2 statements. 3 Commissioner Wright made the following 4 oral ruling on March 16th, 2004: 5 "The Commissioner: Very well. Well I'm 6 going to deal with this matter now. I 7 say initially and I say this with the 8 greatest of respect, but I don't think 9 in my time as a Judge I've ever had 10 Counsel proffer evidence that was 11 triple hearsay; that was the case here. 12 Judy Butler who is one (1) of the 13 proposed witnesses says that she was 14 told by a friend, Maggie Bluewaters 15 another proposed witness, that Gary 16 Pratt's present wife Lucinda Smith- 17 Pratt, had told Bluewater earlier that 18 Gary Pratt had admitted to his wife 19 that he had killed his earlier wife 20 Marie Lamoth (phonetic) and Neil 21 Stonechild. 22 The evidence is that Marie Lamoth died 23 of alcohol overdose. The report was 24 that Pratt was -- had been beaten up 25 [sorry] had beaten up Neil Stonechild
1681 and left him in the bush. As I noted 2 already that does not accord with the 3 evidence at this Inquiry, evidence 4 which is established independently the 5 nature and scope of his injuries and 6 where he was found. 7 Bluewaters refuses to repeat what Gary 8 Pratt's wife, Lucinda, is alleged to 9 have told her. Lucinda, when she is 10 alleged to have made the statements 11 implicating her husband, was mentally 12 distressed, she was arrested under the 13 Mental Health Act. 14 Mr. Pratt's wife now says that she 15 falsely accused her husband. Her 16 statements were made in anger. She 17 stated to the RCMP that that was the 18 case and that she does not believe Gary 19 Pratt was responsible for Neil 20 Stonechild's death. 21 The RCMP has accepted that retraction 22 or correction, as I understand the 23 report. In any event, it seems to me 24 on the face of it at least that she 25 could not be obliged to testify because
1691 of spousal privilege. I cannot imagine 2 evidence which would be more dubious or 3 suspect than the testimony that is 4 proposed to be given in this 5 application. 6 It is third hand evidence and, in my 7 respectful view, absolutely unreliable 8 and is inadmissible even under the most 9 expanded rules that I might apply. I 10 add, as an afterthought, that there is 11 a certain element of mischief in the 12 suggestion that this kind of evidence 13 be proffered at this late date. And I 14 can't say anymore than that but to 15 express my unhappiness that this has 16 been offered at this late point, late 17 time. 18 In any event the application is 19 dismissed as to the proposal to call 20 all three (3) witnesses." 21 Now in my submission the -- all precedents 22 have to -- have to operate by way analogy, no fact 23 situations are identical. But the analogy to the ruling 24 in the Stonechild case is striking, multiple hearsay. 25 In our case it's at least three (3) times
1701 removed and a link in the hearsay chain in -- in that 2 case it was Lucinda Smith-Pratt retracting her statement. 3 In this case as I understand the -- a link in the chain 4 will -- will deny having made the statement at all. 5 And the -- in my respectful submission, 6 this proposed testimony is at least as weak or weaker 7 than the proposed evidence tendered and rejected in 8 Stonechild. And I just want to -- to -- to make a couple 9 of other points with respect to circumstances because we 10 -- the Commission has already heard evidence of a -- of a 11 remote nature. 12 I'm -- I'm referring to the evidence of 13 Robert Bruce Watts who spoke about evidence that had been 14 given to him by what was then an unnamed sources and 15 attributed to, I believe, Julie Jai. And the -- in -- in 16 my respectful submission, the reasons for permitting that 17 evidence were very distinct from this fact situation. 18 This fact situation deals with a 19 conversation after the -- after the fact, not before the 20 fact. And it's a conversation about two (2) individuals 21 talking about responsibility and one (1) -- one (1) 22 individual, Mr. Kobayashi, allegedly giving an opinion 23 based on information sourced up -- up a chain, but it's - 24 - it's all happening after the fact. 25 In the case of the testimony of Mr. -- Mr.
1711 Watts, this related to statement -- a -- a statement that 2 occurred before the -- the shooting of -- of Dudley 3 George and it was -- it was part of the events; it was 4 part of the actual story. People changed their position 5 as a result of what happened. 6 Mr. Watts passed that on -- information on 7 to Chief Tom Bressette who, the evidence was, gave 8 information to a local radio station, all before the 9 shooting. And therefore, it was despite the -- the -- 10 the level of hearsay, it was -- it was part of the res 11 gestae, in -- in effect. It was part of the story, it 12 was something that the Commission reasonably had to 13 inquiry into. 14 And indeed, if -- if Mr. Watts hadn't been 15 called, there might have been a -- a question as to 16 whether or not his source would ever have been revealed, 17 because he -- he expressed his reluctance to revealing 18 the source, but yielded to -- to an order. 19 And so we -- we have a situation, we have 20 a situation in that circumstance where I say there is a - 21 - an appropriate use of hearsay evidence as an 22 investigative tool when no other route is available. But 23 in this particular situation, the evidence -- the 24 information, as I understand, is that Mr. Kobayashi, his 25 -- his superior, has similarly been interviewed by the
1721 Commission, although not on this particular conversation, 2 but there's no suggestion that any of the upstream 3 individuals are -- are cooperating. 4 So, the relevant fact, for purposes of -- 5 of the Inquiry in my respectful submission is: What is 6 the information that Mr. Kobayashi's boss has that bears 7 upon the -- the facts at issue? If he has -- if he was 8 at a meeting where relevant things happened, he should be 9 called and he should be -- he should testify. 10 But the -- when -- when the information 11 comes down the chain and there's a -- a break in the 12 chain, expressions of opinions repeated by this -- this 13 witness, in my respectful submission, has no evidentiary 14 value. It doesn't assist this Inquiry in -- in reaching 15 a proper conclusion. 16 And in my respectful submission to say it 17 may be a bit anticipatory, but let me anticipate, that 18 this information is put in for purposes of -- that you 19 can consider that in terms of -- of weight as opposed to 20 relevance, it is -- is inappropriate. There is -- there 21 is no relevance to the fact that these statements were -- 22 were being said, and there is -- it's not a matter for 23 analysis of weight. 24 If a line can -- should be drawn at any 25 point, accepting the broader latitude of a Commission of
1731 Inquiry, in my respectful submission, this is that type 2 of situation. Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. Before I call on Commission Counsel, does 5 anybody else have any comments on this? 6 Yes, Mr. Downard...? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Sir, my position is 11 different from that of Mr. Roebuck, but only slightly 12 different. I don't seek to prevent the testimony from 13 being heard if you wish to have it heard in this forum, 14 sir. 15 But for the reasons given by Mr. Roebuck, 16 in my view, and in my submission, this testimony, if led, 17 should be entirely disregarded. And if I may just make 18 one (1) general submission. 19 This is obviously a judicial inquiry, and 20 Counsel acting for the Commission act in at least a 21 quasi-judicial capacity. And this Inquiry is going to 22 derive its credibility from its fair process, the 23 exemplary fair process we've had to date, and as well 24 from, of course, the final report. 25 But it follows, in my submission, that if
1741 the credibility of the process is to be maintained, where 2 we are dealing with highly contentious evidence of a very 3 weak nature and of a personal nature, then one really has 4 to be satisfied, in my submission, that it has some 5 objective probative value. 6 And, in my submission, on the basis of all 7 that we know, and the quite reasonable disclosure we've 8 been given in advance about this, this is -- is testimony 9 that is of no use to you, sir. 10 Those are my submissions. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much. Yes, Ms. Vella...? 13 Oh, I'm sorry, some -- Mr. Ross wishes to 14 say something. I'm sorry, I didn't see you, Mr. Ross. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Understandable, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 Mr. Commissioner, I take a different 18 position to the last two (2) Counsel. With reference to 19 the Stonechild matter, I think that could be the -- the 20 decision of Justice Wright could have been very, very 21 different if he was not dealing with a witness who, 22 though competent, was not initially compellable, and who 23 obviously had an axe to grind in that situation. 24 Here we are dealing with a set of 25 circumstances which is supported by the famous tapes
1751 which have not yet been released. 2 We are dealing with proof of a statement. 3 It is not proof of the truthfulness of that statement at 4 this level. The question is whether or not the statement 5 was made by Kobayashi to this witness. 6 I think that's as far as we need to 7 investigate right now, because when one considers the 8 position of Mr. Kobayashi, when one considers the 9 circumstances in which the statement is made, I think 10 it's part of what you're inquiring into as to how do we 11 make sure that these things don't happen again. 12 When you take a senior government official 13 meeting with somebody like this witness, and if, in fact, 14 that statement was made, this Commission ought to be able 15 to rule on it, if it was made. 16 And then after that, you go to the next 17 level and determine whether or not it was a truthful 18 statement. So, at this stage, I think you should be 19 bound by relevance. 20 This is not a situation where a jury is 21 going to be making a determination; this is a Judge. You 22 can listen to it, you can hear it and then you can reject 23 it. But I think it would be inconsistent with your terms 24 of reference and inconsistent with our procedure to, at - 25 - at this stage, to start rejecting.
1761 It's almost like that strange situation in 2 Alice in Wonderland. Shall we give him a fair trial and 3 hang him or shall we hang him and give him a fair trial? 4 Here I'm saying, you've got to listen to it. Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Ross. 7 Yes, Ms. Vella...? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, our role 9 as Commission Counsel is to lead evidence, not to judge 10 the facts. In my submission it would be premature to 11 foreclose a line of inquiry where there is a material 12 dispute on a particular relevant issue. 13 One (1) of the issues being explored by 14 this Inquiry is what role if any, Mr. Harris played in 15 influencing certain policing decisions relevant to the 16 events of September the 6th, 1995. 17 While I acknowledge that Mr. Elijah's 18 evidence is based on hearsay, our rules specifically 19 provide for the admission of such evidence, if relevant, 20 recognizing that this is a public fact finding 21 investigation. Foreclosing this line of evidence before 22 it has been given a chance to be tested in the public 23 forum of the hearing might raise questions about the 24 integrity of the fact finding process. 25 In the ruling from the Stonechild Inquiry
1771 relied upon by Mr. Roebuck is as distinguishable in many 2 ways. First, I've had the benefit of reviewing the 3 transcripts from that ruling and have had the advice of 4 Mr. Worme who, you know, was Counsel to Neil Stonechild's 5 family. 6 This ruling was -- gave rise in the 7 context of an application made by the Police Association 8 to call additional witnesses aimed at identifying other 9 possible persons or suspects in the death of Neil 10 Stonechild. 11 The first relevant point is that it was 12 brought on the third last day of the Hearing in the 13 middle of the third last witness, when there would be 14 virtually no real opportunity for the other parties to 15 challenge the veracity of the proposed evidence. 16 That is not the case here, as we intend to 17 follow the chain of evidence to the source with ample 18 opportunity for all parties to test the credibility every 19 step of the way. 20 Second, there was no suggestion in any of 21 the evidence in the Stonechild Inquiry that the events 22 occurred in the manner which the proposed witnesses were 23 going to testify. Here there is a suggestion in the 24 evidence, commencing with Bonni Bressette and Chief 25 Bressette and then Bob Watt, to the affect that the
1781 former Premier wished the police to take a more 2 aggressive stance. 3 And that this information was allegedly 4 reported during the course of an inter ministerial 5 meeting either on September the 5th or 6th, 1995. We 6 have documents which suggest that Mr. Kobayashi's boss, 7 Mr. Peter Sturdy, and his supervisors or superiors were 8 in attendance at these meetings. 9 Third, in the Stonechild situation, 10 evidence had already been established in that Inquiry 11 that the events took place in a different manner than 12 what was going to be suggested in the proposed new 13 evidence. 14 As My Friend Mr. Roebuck read, the report 15 was that Pratt was or had beaten up Neil Stonechild and 16 left him in the bush. As I noted already, that does not 17 accord with the evidence that this Inquiry, evidence 18 which has established independently the nature and scope 19 of his injuries and where he was found. 20 Fourth and finally, it is my understanding 21 that the proposed testimony in Stonechild was being led 22 to establish the truth of the content of that evidence. 23 We do not intend to tender Mr. Elijah's evidence to be 24 admitted for the truth of the comments attributed by 25 others to the former Premier.
1791 He was not present when the statements 2 which he wishes to report were allegedly made. However, 3 he is part of the change of evidence, which must be 4 pursued in order to determine this important issue. 5 According, we would be leading this 6 evidence to establish the fact of the conversation, that 7 is the conversation with Mr. Kobayashi; that it occurred 8 and what was said during that. 9 We will call Mr. Kobayashi, Mr. Sturdy, 10 Ms. Hutton and ultimately Mr. Harris and possibly others 11 to put forward the full evidence, after which you may 12 then draw your own conclusions which will no doubt 13 require findings of credibility -- credibility with 14 respect to this Witness and with respect to the following 15 witnesses. 16 For these reasons, I submit that Mr. 17 Elijah should be permitted to testify about this 18 particular alleged conversation with Mr. Kobayashi. 19 Subject to your questions, those are my submissions. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I take 21 it that -- I'll give you an opportunity to reply, Mr. 22 Roebuck, but I take it that the basis for Mr. Roebuck's 23 objection is based on statements that are made in a Will- 24 Say or a statement of anticipated evidence. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's correct, yes.
1801 We circulated to Counsel our outline, as is our practice, 2 and then supplemented that by further particulars with 3 respect to this aspect of Mr. Elijah's testimony so that 4 Counsel could make their decisions about what position to 5 take today. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I noticed 7 that Mr. Roebuck went to some length to indicate "X", 8 "Y", and "Z", rather than attribute real names to the 9 events. I understand that, but -- 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- correct 12 me if I'm wrong, Ms. Vella, the essence of the statement, 13 the essence of the statement, that's an issue I believe 14 is already in evidence; am I correct? 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, there's certainly 16 similarities to evidence that we've already heard 17 advanced through Bonni Bressette, Chief Bressette, and 18 Bob Watts. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And there's -- there's 21 a suggestion that it may ultimately lead to the same 22 common source. At the end of the day we need to explore 23 this. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 25 know that yet, but that's a possibility.
1811 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We -- that's correct. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 3 that's fine. I just wanted to be sure that, sometimes 4 what appears in a Will-Say or a Statement of Anticipated 5 Evidence, isn't in fact, the evidence that we hear when a 6 Witness testifies, so what Mr. Roebuck is reacting to is 7 what was in that Will-Say. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And in the follow-up 9 further disclosure that was provided. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And in the 11 follow-up material with changes of correspondence; that's 12 fine. All right, Mr. Roebuck, I'll hear your 13 response now. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DAVID ROEBUCK: Well, the -- my -- my 18 position really is the same with respect to the 19 submissions of -- of Mr. Ross and Ms. -- Ms. Vella, and 20 that is to focus upon what is the real issue that you 21 have to decide. 22 Mr. Ross says that once a -- it -- there's 23 evidence of a statement made by Mr. Kobayashi to the 24 Witness, that's all we need to know. And -- and the 25 implication of that is that you should conduct -- that
1821 you -- you will ultimately have to make credibility 2 findings assuming that there's a conflict. 3 And in my respectful submission, we're -- 4 we're into an -- after the -- after the event 5 conversation there could be scores of such conversations. 6 We know, or there will be evidence, I believe, of 7 newspaper reports after the event and there will be 8 scores of people who potentially have used opinions based 9 on information that they have heard, perhaps references 10 to the same alleged statement. 11 And, in my respectful submission, it 12 doesn't -- it isn't going to fall to you at the end of 13 the day to make a credibility determination between Mr. 14 Kobayashi and Mr. -- Mr. Elijah; that isn't -- that isn't 15 necessary and this is in no sense an exercise in 16 preventing the important facts from coming out. The 17 people who have relevant information were people who were 18 at certain meetings. And the meetings are supposed to be 19 the source of the -- of the attribution of 20 responsibility. 21 So, that's -- that's the -- that's the 22 evidence. These -- this downstream evidence is not 23 something that you, in my respectful submission, have to 24 -- have to determine upon. And while, as I said, there 25 is no -- there's never a perfect analogy to a particular
1831 precedent, the -- the -- in the ruling, it's quite clear 2 that Justice Wright says that the element of this matter 3 coming out at the last minute, he says: 4 "I add as an afterthought." 5 I mean, the principle he says, he speaks 6 to is third hand information which has an unreliability 7 principle analogous to -- to this case. 8 The suggestion that it's put -- it's put 9 forward not for the -- for the truth but for the fact 10 that it was said, in my respectful submission, is an 11 argument you have heard hundreds of times as -- as a 12 sitting Judge. 13 There is no relevance to the fact that 14 downstream articulations of information upstream were 15 made. The issue is what was said at a particular 16 meeting, and not trying to follow the chain of that 17 information and how witnesses heard it, remembered it, 18 interpreted it, commented upon it, made opinions upon it. 19 Unless you have any questions of me, those 20 are my submissions. Thank you, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. 23 Yes, Ms. Vella...? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just a brief, brief 25 rebuttal, that is that the inter-ministerial committees,
1841 committee meetings had many, many people in attendance at 2 those meetings. And we don't know at this time whether 3 all of the members will have the same or differing 4 recollections of the statements attrib -- reportedly 5 made. 6 So, one (1) of the ways which you'll be 7 able to assess the credibility of those -- that evidence, 8 will be by what the people from that meeting tell others 9 shortly thereafter. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As I said, I 11 believe that the essence of this evidence is already in 12 our record and that gives me some concern, obviously. 13 It's not -- we can't put toothpaste back 14 in a tube. I believe that that information is out there. 15 It has been out there, as I understand it, as I 16 understand the essence of what Mr. Elijah is expected to 17 say, based on the statement of anticipated evidence, this 18 information has been out in the public arena for years. 19 And perhaps I'm wrong about that, but I 20 believe that's the case, and I had the impression that 21 one (1) of the objectives of this Inquiry is to either 22 confirm or deny that, once and for all. 23 We are trying to track down the source and 24 confirm or deny whether not that information was or ought 25 to have been out there at all.
1851 But it is out there; I mean, we can't deny 2 it. So, as I said when we allowed it in, in the first 3 instance, that it is not -- it was not allowed in, wasn't 4 allowed to be admitted for its truth. I made that very 5 clear, that it was being allowed, it was admissible only 6 for the fact that the statement was made and that I 7 believe, at this point, it has very little if any, 8 weight, but it is relevant in my view. 9 And I think that it ought to be admitted. 10 I understand that whenever evidence of this sort is 11 offered, there's a balance between its prejudicial impact 12 or potential prejudicial impact, which, unfortunately, 13 exists in this case against its probative value, which I 14 think I have to balance, and any Judge does in any case 15 where this situation arises. 16 And it is different in a Public Inquiry 17 which is basically an investigation. I say that over and 18 over again, Public Inquiry, the rules of evidence are not 19 the same as at a trial. 20 Perhaps this evidence would not be 21 admitted at a trial, but in a Public Inquiry, especially 22 in view of where we are in this Inquiry and the issues we 23 understand are relevant to this Inquiry, I believe that 24 this evidence is relevant and therefore admissible. 25 What I expect it to be, and again, we
1861 don't know what the Witness is going to say yet, but I 2 believe it is relevant and therefore admissible. Thank 3 you. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Now, Mr. Elijah...? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You are about to advise us with 11 respect to a particular conversation you say that you had 12 on December the 3rd, 1995 involving Mr. Les Kobayashi. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: I wonder if you would now tell the 15 Commission what transpired during the course of that 16 conversation? 17 A: The day started out about 9:30 in the 18 morning; that was the day of the walkthrough in the Park. 19 And all the workers from the Ministry of Natural 20 Resources, all were doing their thing. The OPP were 21 taping, watching the MNR, and one (1) of the guys from 22 the Camp were watching overall. 23 And me and Les Kobayashi were at the back 24 and he said, We're not needed here, let's go for -- let's 25 go for a ride. I said, Sure. He said, I'll show you our
1871 other park; meaning the Pinery Park. 2 So I jumped in and we went for a ride over 3 there and he showed me what all was Indian land and what 4 was bought off the Natives and where the river went 5 through it and separated the two (2) lands. 6 That one (1) side of that river was still 7 Indian land and the other side was sold. And then we 8 were just talking and all of a sudden I said, excuse the 9 language, I said, Do you think it was, think it was, that 10 fucking Potts that gave the order to kill Dudley? And he 11 goes, No, I know for a fact -- I know for a fact it 12 wasn't Jim Potts. He said it was Mike Harris. I know, 13 my boss was there at the meeting. And I says, Are you 14 sure? And he goes, Yes, I'm positive. And I go, Wow. 15 Q: And did anything else -- was anything 16 else said during the course of this conversation? 17 A: Yeah. He just said that you won't 18 hear him say that, never again. Meaning Mike Harris. 19 Q: Now you said this occurred on a -- on 20 a -- was it a car ride? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And whose car was it? 23 A: It was the Department of -- the 24 Ministry of Natural Resources. 25 Q: Do you recall what kind of car it
1881 was? 2 A: It was a Dodge Diplomat Chrysler, it 3 was a Dodge product, Chrysler product. 4 Q: And how long was this car ride? 5 A: About two (2) hours, til about 11:00, 6 11:30, and things were wrapping up in the Park. So we 7 went back and he got all his men and sent them out to 8 dinner and he done what he done with the OPP and they 9 left. And we went about our day, it was normal. 10 Q: And why -- well, first of all let me 11 ask you this. Did you take any notes of this 12 conversation? 13 A: No, but I'm positive I told the SIU. 14 I told people at home. All they could say was, Well, 15 that's what's in the paper anyway. 16 You know, it seemed like the people at 17 home didn't really want to hear that. The SIU said 18 that's in the paper anyway. 19 Q: Now who did you tell at the SIU? 20 A: I believe it was Wayne Allen. 21 Q: And do you recall when approximately 22 you told him this? 23 A: I would think about a week later. 24 Q: Okay. And do you recall where that 25 conversation occurred?
1891 A: At the Park. 2 Q: Now the conversation that -- that you 3 have reported having with Les Kobayashi, are the words 4 that you have used, words which represent a direct 5 quotation or is that your recollection now of the 6 conversation? 7 A: That's a direct. 8 Q: Sorry? 9 A: A direct. I remember it word for 10 word. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: Because I was really surprised. 13 Q: -- can you tell me again what -- what 14 your question was which prompted the response? 15 A: Well, what prompted it was because 16 every time Jim Potts was around or whatever, he always 17 seemed to be the boss. My men, our men, us guys, we, I 18 thought he was the boss. And that's why I asked, Was it 19 him? 20 Q: When you said, Was it him, can you be 21 more specific? What was the question now? 22 A: Was -- was it Jim Potts that gave the 23 order that night to kill Dudley? 24 Q: And did you actually say, Was it Jim 25 Potts who gave the order that night to shoot Dudley?
1901 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Is that what you said. 3 A: That -- that night. 4 Q: Exactly? 5 A: That's exactly. 6 Q: And you can remember that word-for- 7 word ten (10) years later? 8 A: Oh, yeah. 9 Q: How is it that you're able to 10 remember the words of this conversation so carefully 11 without the benefit of notes? 12 A: Because of his answer. 13 Q: And did Mr. Kobayashi mention who his 14 boss was? 15 A: No, I never asked either. 16 Q: Did Mr. Kobayashi indicate what 17 meeting these -- this statement was -- was allegedly made 18 at? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did he advise you as to the timing of 21 this alleged statement? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did Mr. Kobayashi actually specify 24 what it was that Mr. Harris allegedly gave the order to 25 do?
1911 A: No. 2 Q: So -- 3 A: He just said he gave the order, 4 that's it; that's -- that was -- 5 Q: All right. So, this -- so, you've 6 drawn an inference from that response? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, the Commission has been advised 9 that Mr. Kobayashi apparently intends to deny this 10 particular statement that you have attributed to him. 11 Does that alter your evidence in any way? 12 A: No, no. It's him that's going to 13 have a hard sleep, not me. 14 Q: Did you have any occasion to meet 15 with Mr. Kobayashi on a one-to-one basis after December 16 the 3rd? 17 A: No, I think he was transferred or 18 something. Because -- 19 Q: Did you -- I'm sorry. 20 A: Because about two (2) or three (3) 21 weeks later the -- the dams were getting built up and I - 22 - I called MNR and asked them how they managed it and 23 what they used to break apart the dams. And I asked for 24 Kobayashi and they said he was no longer there. 25 Q: All right. Did you ever have
1921 occasion to discuss this particular conversation with Mr. 2 Kobayashi again? 3 A: No. 4 Q: How long did you remain a resident at 5 the Park? 6 A: Until September of 2004. 7 Q: Were you there as a peacekeeper the 8 entire time? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you intend to return to the 11 Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Why not? 14 A: It's pretty well over; that's what we 15 were waiting for was this to start. I -- I got into a 16 car accident and got hurt and then I had to have some 17 operations, so I went home. 18 Q: Just one (1) moment, please. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Thank you, Mr. Elijah, that 23 constitutes my examination. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 Thank you. Now, having heard the evidence, this may or
1931 may not be the same statement as we have from another 2 source. It may or may not be, but whether it is or it 3 isn't, I want to caution the media or anybody that this 4 is not being admitted for its truth. 5 It has to be absolutely clear that if 6 anybody writes about this, this is an allegation and it 7 is hearsay, and we have to be particularly careful about 8 how we deal with it. And I have to be particularly 9 careful about how much weight, if any, we give to it when 10 we come to write our final report. And a lot will depend 11 on evidence that we have not yet heard from witnesses who 12 have not yet testified. So, I want to make that clear. 13 Now, does anybody wish to cross-examine 14 Mr. Elijah? 15 Yes, Ms. Esmonde? 16 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I'll just be a few 17 minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: A few 19 minutes? Ms. -- Ms. Perschy, is it? 20 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Johnson. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 22 yes, on behalf of the Band of -- 23 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's correct. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The Band. 25 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Twenty (20)
1941 minutes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 3 minutes. 4 Yes...? 5 MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: Twenty (20) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 7 minutes on behalf of the Province. 8 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, Mr. 10 Commissioner. I can indicate, sir, at this time it's 11 difficult for me to provide an estimate. As I indicated 12 to My Friends, Mr. Millar and Ms. Vella over the luncheon 13 break, as a result of some of the evidence that's come 14 forward this morning, I'm in the process of making some 15 inquiries. 16 It may be that I will be an hour with this 17 witness, but it really depends, sir, on the results of 18 those inquiries. And I can indicate as I've already done 19 so to My Friends, I won't be in a position to proceed 20 this afternoon, until I've received follow-up on those 21 inquiries. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would it 23 inconvenience your cross-examination if we continued 24 around you and called on your cross-examination later? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, I don't
1951 think it would, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, if we 3 finished everything else except for you? 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I don't think 5 so, although I anticipate, sir, that My Friend, Ms. 6 Jones, is in the exact same position as I am. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, okay, 8 okay so -- 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: So it may be 10 that -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: She's about 12 to say that, I think. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: The two (2) of 14 us will have to be skirted, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, well 16 let's get to that point and then see. 17 I presume you're going to say the same 18 thing? You're hoping -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I am. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 Thank you, Ms. Jones. 22 Mr. Downard, how long might you be? 23 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Fifteen (15) minutes 24 to half an hour. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15)
1961 minutes to half an hour. 2 Do you have any cross-examination, Mr. 3 Roebuck? 4 MR. DAVID ROEBUCK: I expect that it will 5 be covered by others and, at most, will be five (5) 6 minutes, but I think I'll not have any questions at all. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Roebuck. Well then, I think we should begin. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: May I just make a 10 comment -- suggestion? First of all, I'm wondering 11 whether it wouldn't be possible for Ms. Tuck-Jackson and 12 Ms. Jones to conduct those parts of their cross- 13 examinations that aren't dependent on Ms. Tuck-Jackson's 14 inquiries. 15 As I understand it, it's with respect to a 16 limited portion of the evidence. 17 And, secondly, I believe that the Witness 18 requires a brief break. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we'll 20 take a break, but we'll deal with that when we come to 21 it. If you can't, you can't, we'll deal with what we can 22 while we can and then we'll make a decision from there. 23 You want to take a break now? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Then we'll
1971 take a short break now. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for fifteen (15) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 2:32 p.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 2:48 p.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed, please be seated. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 11 Esmonde...? 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 14 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Elijah. 15 A: Good afternoon. 16 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde, I am one 17 (1) of the lawyers representing the Aazhoodena and George 18 family Group. There is just a few areas I wanted to 19 follow up with you on. 20 Now, I took it from your comments this 21 morning that you were concerned that there was some delay 22 in the SIU coming to the location of the shooting to do 23 their investigation. Is that right? 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: And you eventually learned from Jim
1981 Kennedy that the SIU had some concerns about people in 2 the Park being armed and hating white people? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that this was one (1) of the 5 reasons they had not come to the location earlier? 6 A: That is one (1) of the reasons, plus 7 the other one was, they were going to be sued. 8 Q: Right. Now, and I take it from what 9 you said this morning that you -- you were not opposed to 10 the SIU coming to the location to carry out their 11 investigation? 12 A: No, I was waiting for them. 13 Q: And you didn't set up any barriers to 14 their doing so? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And from what you knew from speaking 17 with the other people in the Park, was there any 18 opposition from other people in the Park, to the SIU 19 doing their investigation at that location? 20 A: None whatsoever. 21 Q: Now you described this morning, 22 finding three (3) bullet casings in August 1996? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I understand that these were 25 found while you were cleaning up the memorial site?
1991 A: Yes. 2 Q: Is -- it's also the case that that is 3 the location that had not been searched previously by the 4 SIU; is that the case? 5 A: That's the case, yes. 6 Q: That area had been marked off when 7 the SIU had carried out their investigation in September 8 '95? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay, and I just have a few final 11 questions about your role as a peacekeeper. Now I 12 understand that as a peacekeeper, you are committed to 13 finding non-violent resolutions of disputes? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you oppose the use of arms, on 16 principle? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you would not offer your 19 assistance or remain in a situation that involved 20 firearms; is that the case? 21 A: No. No. I wouldn't. 22 Q: And you did not see any firearms 23 while you were at Stoney Point? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you very much, sir. Those are
2001 all of my questions. 2 A: You're welcome. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. Ms. Freeborn? Oh, I'm sorry, yes. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 7 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Elijah. 8 A: Hi. 9 Q: My name's Colleen Johnson and I 10 represent the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point today. 11 I have just a few questions for you, sir. 12 You indicated the first time when you met 13 with Mr. Kennedy, I believe, that was the first meeting 14 that you had with the SIU; is that correct? 15 A: With Mr. Kennedy, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And you were -- indicated that 17 you would have liked to have had the SIU involved 18 earlier; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And you indicated that to Mr. 21 Kennedy; correct? 22 A: Oh, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And that was the first meeting 24 with SIU was with Mr. Kennedy? 25 A: Yes.
2011 Q: And who else attended that meeting, 2 sir? 3 A: Gabriel Doxtator. 4 Q: Okay. So Gabriel was with you and 5 you indicated that Mr. Kennedy stated that they had been 6 told that the occupiers were an angry mob. And you've 7 just confirmed that for My Friend, is that right? 8 A: That's true. 9 Q: Okay. Would you agree that there 10 trust issues between the SIU and the peacekeepers, or 11 yourself in general? 12 A: No. 13 Q: At that point? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. So there were no previous 16 trust issues on your part at least? 17 A: No. 18 Q: But certainly the SIU had some trust 19 issues; is that correct? 20 A: I -- I wouldn't think so. 21 Q: Well, they indicated that they 22 thought that -- that the Stoney Point people or the 23 occupiers were an angry mob? 24 A: That's what somebody tried to put in 25 their head, ma'am.
2021 Q: I'm just suggesting that at that 2 point while they were under that belief, that there were 3 trust issues? 4 A: I don't think they believed it, 5 because he come by himself. 6 Q: Okay. So if there were trust issues, 7 they seemed to get resolved at that point; at the point 8 of your meeting? 9 A: There wasn't any. But yes, there 10 wasn't any anyway. 11 Q: Okay. And then you indicated that 12 the SIU was restrained from coming to the Camp; is that 13 correct? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you've indicated that that was by 16 either Tom Bressette, Chief Tom Bressette or Kettle Point 17 had restrained them from coming to the Camp; is that 18 correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And where did you get the information 21 from that that had occurred? 22 A: From them, SIU themselves. 23 Q: From who specifically? 24 A: From Jim Kennedy the first day and 25 Jim Kennedy and Wayne Allen the second day.
2031 Q: So Jim Kennedy on the very first 2 meeting that you had with them -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- indicated what specifically, sir? 5 A: That they couldn't come to the Camp. 6 They couldn't meet with nobody, they couldn't pick 7 information about how it was, that we were supposed to be 8 armed, dangers, hate white people. 9 And if they did talk to us, there was 10 going to be a lawsuit filed by Chief Bressette. 11 Q: Now your giving me two (2) pieces of 12 information. You're talking about that they had heard 13 that you were armed and all of those kinds of things, and 14 I just submit that that didn't necessarily come from 15 Chief Bressette or the Kettle Point people or the Band; 16 is that correct? 17 A: That's what he said. 18 Q: So are you now telling me that all of 19 the information that SIU initially had, he indicated that 20 that came to him by way of Chief Bressette and the Kettle 21 Point Band? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And he indicated that directly to 24 you? 25 A: Yes.
2041 Q: And have you ever had a conversation 2 with Chief Bressette or any members of the Kettle Point 3 Council -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- in regards to this? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Do you have any first-hand knowledge 8 about the position that Chief Bressette or the Kettle and 9 Stony Point council took in this regard? 10 A: Just from what I've been hearing, but 11 like you say, first hand, no. 12 Q: Okay. So everything that you have 13 with regards to what Chief Bressette's position was in 14 the Kettle and Stony Point Council position, was in 15 regards to the occupation and the events that followed 16 and the investigation, are assumptions that you've made; 17 is that correct? 18 A: No, he quoted in the paper. 19 Q: In the newspaper? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. But you have no first-hand 22 knowledge, correct? 23 A: No, I wasn't sitting at no Kettle 24 Point office, no. 25 Q: So, you've got assumptions that
2051 you've based on general feelings and on trust or 2 distrust, but really no facts? 3 A: From -- from really trustful people. 4 Q: Such as the paper? 5 A: No, SIU. 6 Q: And certainly, if -- I would presume 7 that if SIU had provided you with that information that 8 there would be notes of that in their meetings, would you 9 agree? 10 A: It'll be here. 11 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to put to you, 12 sir, that you're one (1) of the last First Nation 13 witnesses to be called, that's -- you're -- you're -- 14 there have been a lot of First Nations evidence that's 15 come forward so far and this evidence has -- has not been 16 brought out at all previously. 17 A: Nobody talked to the SIU like I did. 18 Q: Okay. You indicated that you were 19 not the only person at that meeting; correct? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And I'm sorry, can you refresh my 22 memory, who else was at the meeting? 23 A: Gabe Doxtator. 24 Q: And these statements were made to you 25 both on the first day and the second day?
2061 A: Yes. 2 Q: So, your meetings were one right 3 after the other? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Two (2) days consecutive? 6 A: Yes. 7 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: All right. Those 8 are my questions, sir, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN FREEBORN: 15 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Elijah. 16 A: Good afternoon. 17 Q: My name is Susan Freeborn, I'm 18 Counsel -- one (1) of the counsel for the Province of 19 Ontario. And I just had a few questions with respect to 20 your conversations with Mr. Kobayashi? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I -- I didn't quite get all the 23 details down during your evidence. It's my understanding 24 that you had said you had two (2) personal meetings, just 25 you and Mr. Kobayashi alone --
2071 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and then you had two (2) meetings 3 when there were other people around; is that correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the -- the November 24th meeting 6 was one (1) of the meetings with other people around? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And then the December 3rd meeting, 9 the winterization meeting, was that considered one (1) of 10 the times when you went off in the car? Was that one (1) 11 of your personal meetings with Mr. Kobayashi? 12 A: I had two (2) along the beach. 13 Q: I'm sorry, I can't hear you. 14 A: I -- I had two (2) along the beach. 15 Q: Okay. All right; that's what I was 16 going to try to establish. 17 A: Yeah, yeah. 18 Q: So, you had, in actual fact, two (2) 19 meetings on the beach and then a third meeting when you 20 went to Pinery Park in the car? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to go 23 back to the very first meeting on the beach. Do you know 24 -- have any idea what the date of that first meeting was? 25 A: It was not very far after the 24th of
2081 November, not very far at all. 2 Q: So it's between -- 3 A: A couple of days. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: A couple of days after the 24th. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Because the 24th was our first 8 initial meeting. 9 Q: The 24th? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Sorry, what -- what happened? 12 A: It was our first initial meeting. 13 Q: All right. And can you tell me the 14 circumstances of how Mr. Kobayashi came to see you and -- 15 and took you in the car for the drive? 16 A: Because I was head of security in the 17 Park. 18 Q: So, did he drive into the Park? 19 A: No, he met me on the outside. 20 Q: Was that a pre-arranged meeting? 21 A: Yes, yes. 22 Q: So, he contacted you and -- and 23 suggested a meeting? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And how did he contact you?
2091 A: Through the -- the -- the police and 2 the team that drive around. 3 Q: Do you recall which police officer? 4 A: Probably Marvin Conners. 5 Q: Marvin Conners? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You say, "probably," are you not 8 certain? 9 A: Yes, yes, it was either Marvin 10 Conners of Les Jewel, because they were the two (2) that 11 rode with the police. 12 Q: So, Les contacted one (1) -- those 13 officers and suggested a meeting -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- between you and he? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what time of day was your 18 meeting? 19 A: About one o'clock. 20 Q: Okay. And you said you went in -- in 21 a car, was he driving then? 22 A: Yes, he was driving. 23 Q: And the vehicle that you went in on 24 that day, do you recall what car that -- that was? 25 A: I assume it was the same Dodge. It
2101 was the same car. 2 Q: So it was a Dodge? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what colour was that car? 5 A: Between a grey and green. 6 Q: Okay. And you drove down the beach 7 and did you say he -- you just parked and had your 8 conversation? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you may have said this, and I 11 didn't catch it, how long was that meeting in the car 12 that day? 13 A: Ten (10), fifteen (15) minutes. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: It was just to get to know each other 16 and just a little chit chat, because we knew we were 17 going to meet. 18 Q: And when Mr. Kobayashi set up the 19 meeting or when you started your, sort of, discussion, 20 did he indicate why he wanted to meet with you? 21 Was it because, as you've just said -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- to get to know one another? 24 A: Yes, just get to know one another. 25 Q: Okay. And was it during that
2111 conversation that he revealed a bit about his childhood 2 to you? 3 A: The second meeting. 4 Q: It's the second meeting. What was 5 the gist of the conversation then, during that first 6 meeting? What else did you talk about? 7 A: Oh, there was a sweat going on. He 8 asked me all what all I knew about the sweat lodges and 9 how it was run and everything in my background. 10 Q: Okay, and did he discuss anything 11 else with you about arrangements at the Park or -- 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. And then, at the 14 conclusion, did -- he just drove you back to the Park, 15 did he? 16 A: Yes, and said, Well, we'll see each 17 other again. I go, Right on. 18 Q: Okay, and what were the circumstances 19 of the second meeting? How did that come about? 20 A: We just met two (2) days later after 21 that. 22 Q: And again, how was that arranged? 23 A: The same way. 24 Q: Through police officers? 25 A: Yes, through the police officers,
2121 yeah. 2 Q: And which officers were that? 3 A: I don't know, I never -- I don't 4 know. 5 Q: Well, how did you -- 6 A: They were Anishnaabeg police. I 7 don't know, there was a number of them. 8 Q: Well, I'm just wondering how you 9 knew -- 10 A: If they were -- 11 Q: -- when to meet Mr. Kobayashi and 12 where? 13 A: Okay, every time they'd pull up 14 there, I'd walk out there to meet them, every time. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: It wasn't nobody else's job but mine. 17 Q: So you're saying on the day of the 18 second meeting, or sometime before the second meeting, 19 they pulled up and you went over to speak with them and 20 they told you about a meeting? 21 A: Yeah, said he was going to meet me 22 again today. And I said -- 23 Q: And when -- and when was the second 24 meeting in -- 25 A: Two (2) days after that.
2131 Q: Two (2) days later? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: So this is before December 3rd, then? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And on that occasion, what time of 6 day was your second meeting? 7 A: About two o'clock in the afternoon. 8 Q: And where did you go on that -- where 9 -- did you go -- 10 A: We went -- 11 Q: -- in the car? 12 A: Yeah, in the car, all the way down 13 the beach again, but we went further. 14 Q: How far did you go? 15 A: Almost to Kettle Point. 16 Q: Okay. And did you go in the same 17 car -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- as the last time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And how long did that meeting last? 22 A: That meeting was a little bit longer; 23 that's when he told me about his background and he 24 started asking me about mine. 25 Q: And in terms of the second meeting,
2141 did he give you any indication as to why he had set up 2 that second meeting with you in the car? 3 A: No. 4 Q: He didn't -- 5 A: No. 6 Q: -- say anything? 7 A: The drive -- when we left on the 8 first meeting, he just said, We'll meet again, and I 9 said, Right on, let's do it. 10 Q: All right. And -- so you indicated 11 that he had told you a little bit about some of the 12 racism he experienced in school, did you say? 13 A: Yes, growing up. 14 Q: Growing up. And did he tell you 15 where he grew up? 16 A: Not really, no. 17 Q: No? Did he tell you -- was this -- 18 what level of schooling he was at when this happened to 19 him? 20 A: No. 21 Q: What other things did he tell you, 22 sort of, of a personal nature? 23 A: Well, just that he had beliefs just 24 like we have beliefs and that he believed all his ways 25 and he was glad that people -- there was people alive
2151 that believed how we believed. 2 And he said he'd done a lot of reading and 3 -- on natives and he likes it. 4 Q: Okay. And did he reveal anything 5 else of a personal nature to you about himself? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No? And you indicated in your 8 evidence that he had -- was asking you about the Warrior 9 Society? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you said you felt he was 12 gathering intelligence? 13 A: Oh, yeah. 14 Q: And why do you say that? 15 A: Because he kept bringing it up. 16 Q: You mean in the way -- in his line of 17 questioning and -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: All right, and you had told us 20 earlier some of what you had told him, explained to him 21 about the Warrior Society -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Was there anything else that you told 24 him about the Warrior Society? 25 A: Yeah, I told him they weren't there
2161 or they weren't expected, either. 2 Q: You told him they weren't at the 3 Park? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And that you weren't expecting that 6 they would come? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did he have any response to that? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And what else did you talk about 11 during this -- how long did this conversation -- this was 12 a longer one, I gather? 13 A: Yeah, about twenty (20) minutes. 14 Q: Twenty (20) minutes? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And did you talk about 17 anything else? 18 A: Not really, no. 19 Q: So again, did you just -- 20 A: Just -- just gathering information 21 back and forth. Just chitchat between two (2) guys. 22 Q: Okay. So again, did you drive down 23 the beach, park and chat and then -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- he drove you back?
2171 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. Now so then your next meeting 3 was on December 3rd? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I gather that the -- so this is 6 for the winterization? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I gather people were gathering quite 9 early in the morning were they not? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And were you there first thing in the 12 morning as well? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: As was Mr. Kobayashi? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I gather there were a number of 17 MNR -- other MNR people there? 18 A: There was. 19 Q: And how long were you there before 20 Mr. Kobayashi suggested you go for another drive? 21 A: About fifteen (15) twenty (20) 22 minutes. 23 Q: So fifteen (15) to twenty (20) 24 minutes. So you're saying -- what did the -- do you know 25 what time you gathered; did you say so?
2181 A: About 9:30. 2 Q: 9:30? 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: It wasn't earlier than that then? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So shortly after that he suggested 7 you go for a drive? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Were you comfortable leaving under 10 the circumstances of -- of the fact that you, you know, 11 there was certain conditions set up about how this 12 winterization process would take place? 13 Did you have any concerns about leaving 14 the Park while this was going on? 15 A: No, there was a lot of people there. 16 Q: So you -- you felt it was fine for 17 you and Mr. Kobayashi to leave? 18 A: Yeah, it was his idea. 19 Q: It's his suggestions? And did he 20 make the suggestion in the presence of some of the other 21 people who were there that morning? 22 A: No, I think he sent all his workers 23 out already and we were just sitting at the back. 24 Q: Sitting where at the back? 25 A: In his car.
2191 Q: You were sitting in his car? 2 A: Yeah, it was cool so we were sitting 3 in his car, everybody else start work and doing their 4 thing and he just says Hey, there's no use -- need us 5 being here let's go for a ride? 6 Q: And did Mr. Kobayashi inform any of 7 his staff or -- or the OPP officers who were that you 8 were leaving? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So he just drove away with you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And what vehicle were you in 13 that time? 14 A: The same car. 15 Q: Same white -- was it white? No, it 16 was grey green? 17 A: Grey green. 18 Q: Grey green Dodge? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: I'm sorry? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Oh. And where did you go on that 23 occasion? I guess you said you went -- 24 A: Pinery -- Pinery Park. 25 Q: Did he pick that destination or how
2201 was it that you -- you went to Pinery Park? 2 A: He just said do you want me to show 3 you our other park? I said sure. 4 Q: You'd not been to Pinery Park before? 5 A: Never. 6 Q: And during the course -- I think you 7 said earlier in your evidence that he showed you the 8 boundaries of the Park and did he -- did you discuss 9 anything else? 10 And I'll come to the conversation about 11 the meeting his boss had but were there any other 12 discussions during that car ride? 13 A: No, just -- just showed me the 14 boundaries of -- of their park -- of that park and that 15 the Natives still owned it or part of it and they 16 probably didn't know, because it was a ninety-nine (99) 17 year lease. 18 But he was telling me stuff that the guys 19 from the Camp I think know. 20 Q: The guys from the Camp -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- knew you said? 23 A: Yeah; that the Pinery Park was 24 theirs. 25 Q: Now I was a bit unclear as to how the
2211 subject of Mr. Potts came up. You -- how was it that you 2 suddenly asked Mr. Kobayashi about Mr. Potts? 3 A: Because he -- he brought up the 4 Warriors one (1) more time. 5 Q: Mr. Kobayashi asked you some more 6 questions about the Warriors? 7 A: One (1) more time, yeah. And that 8 broke the needle or whatever, you know. Like that was 9 too many times and that I knew what he was doing. So I 10 just I thought I would return the favour to him. 11 Q: So this was -- you were saying this 12 was in the form of reaction to his questioning you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: I see. And I guess your question was 15 something to the affect of -- well, maybe you can tell me 16 what your question was to Kobayashi? 17 A: I just asked him. I said, Do you 18 think it was that fucking Potts that gave the order? 19 Q: And according to my notes -- well, 20 perhaps you can tell me what his response was because my 21 notes are a bit cryptic. 22 What did he say back to you in response to 23 that question? 24 A: He says, No, I know for a fact -- 25 Q: Yes.
2221 A: -- that it wasn't Jim Potts. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: It was Mike Harris. 4 Q: Okay. And then he went on to say how 5 he had that understanding? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that was because he said his boss 8 was at a meeting? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did he -- he -- he didn't say who his 11 boss was, I gather? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you pursue that at all after -- 14 in other words, did you follow up any further with him 15 and ask him any other information about his boss? 16 A: No, that was good enough for me. 17 Q: That was good enough for you? After 18 Mr. Kobayashi said this to you, did you just continue on 19 with your conversation -- regular conversation? 20 What happened after that? 21 A: Yeah. Yes, we just kept talking like 22 two (2) normal human beings and then we went back to the 23 Camp. He said, It's getting close to dinner time, let's 24 head back. 25 Q: So, you had been gone about how long?
2231 A: Until about quarter after 11:00 -- 2 11:30. 3 Q: This is in the morning, then? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And did Mr. Kobayashi say 6 anything to you as you left the -- the car? 7 A: No, just, Have a good day and nice 8 meeting you again and stuff like that. 9 Q: Quite congenial? 10 A: Yeah, he was a nice person. 11 Q: When you returned to the Park, were 12 any of the other MNR staff there? 13 A: They were already to go. 14 Q: So, did they see you return in the 15 car -- 16 A: With. 17 Q: -- with Mr. Kobayashi? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the OPP saw you return with Mr. 20 Kobayashi as well in the car? 21 A: The OPP returned? 22 Q: Did the OPP who were there attending 23 at the Park -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- did they see you come back as
2241 well? 2 A: Yes, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And after you -- after you 4 left Mr. Kobayashi, did you have a discussion with any of 5 your colleagues that were there about what had transpired 6 in your conversation with him? 7 A: Yes, but I mean, you -- you should 8 have asked me if I talked to anybody there, you know, and 9 I did, I talked to the OPP. I just asked them, I said -- 10 because I knew they were taping, I said, Do you think I 11 could get a copy of that? I said -- 12 Q: A copy of what? 13 A: The damages or whatever they were 14 taping. 15 Q: No, what I wanted to -- what I meant 16 to -- to -- my question was, after you had left the car 17 with Mr. Kobayashi, did you speak to any of your people 18 there about what he had told you about and who did you 19 tell? 20 A: Yes, yes. I told Ben Pouget. 21 Q: You told Ben Pouget and did you tell 22 anyone else? 23 A: I think I told Julius -- Julius 24 George (phonetic). 25 Q: Julius George? Anyone else?
2251 A: Probably a whole bunch of people, you 2 know, but at that time and that stage of the game, if you 3 want to call it a game, everybody was blaming Harris 4 anyway and -- and when I brought that to them, they just 5 says, What else is new, it's in the paper. 6 Q: So, they didn't seem surprised at 7 your -- at your information? 8 A: No, the only ones that told me to 9 behave and stay low was SIU. 10 Q: And you're saying that you told one 11 (1) of the SIU officers about your conversation with Mr. 12 Kobayashi? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you say you thought it was Wayne 15 Allen? 16 A: I -- I thought -- I'm not sure, it 17 could be somebody else. You'll -- you'll find out when 18 they get here. 19 Q: So, you're -- you're not sure which 20 SIU officer? 21 A: No, I'm not sure. 22 Q: Do you have any recollection of how 23 soon after you had your conversation with Mr. Kobayashi 24 that you spoke to the SIU officer? 25 A: Probably a couple of weeks.
2261 Q: A couple of weeks? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And did you pass the information on 4 verbatim? In other words, did you quote the words that 5 you quoted today that you're attributing to Mr. 6 Kobayashi? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Thank you, those are my questions. 9 A: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. I understand that Ms. Tuck-Jackson and Ms. 12 Jones would like to reserve their cross-examination for 13 the time being. 14 So, Mr. Downard, I'm going to ask you if 15 you would like to go in any event or if you'd like to 16 await your regular turn? 17 MR. PETER DOWNARD: No, I'll start, thank 18 you very much. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll still 20 go ahead. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 25 Q: Sir, my name's Peter Downard and I
2271 act for the former Ontario Premier, Mike Harris. And I 2 just want to ask you a few questions about your evidence. 3 Now, I'd like to ask you a few things 4 about the phone calls you say you got on the night of 5 September 6th, in which you spoke with Gabriel Doxtator 6 and Buck Doxtator, and I believe also, Larry French. 7 Do you recall giving that evidence? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, as I understood your evidence, 10 in the first call you received that from Gabriel Doxtator 11 about ten (10) to 11:00 at night on September the 6th; 12 right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And in the course of that call, 15 Gabriel Doxtator put Buck Doxtator on the phone, and Buck 16 Doxtator said to you, They already come in once and it 17 looks like they're coming again. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You recall that? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Did he say why he thought it looked 22 like they were coming again? 23 A: Because they never left, they were 24 just right there. 25 Q: Okay. The police had never left,
2281 they were right there? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And you said that you had a 7 conversation with Gabriel Doxtator in which, and I'm 8 quoting here as best I can, in which you said: 9 "Do you hear all that, that's the cops, 10 they are acting like fucking kids. I 11 could hear all kinds of hollering in 12 the background." 13 Unquote. You recall giving that evidence? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now was that in your first call at 16 ten (10) to 11:00 or on your second call? 17 A: That is my second call. 18 Q: And when did the second call take 19 place? 20 A: About five (5) to 11:00. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Or it could have been the first, too, 25 because the second one there was a shooting.
2291 Q: In the second one you could hear 2 shooting, is that what you're saying? 3 A: No, I didn't say that. 4 Q: Okay, well, I'm sorry. I thought 5 that was what -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- you just did. 8 A: Just go ahead anyway. 9 Q: All right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Well, I'm having some difficulty with 14 your evidence about these calls at around 11:00 p.m. on 15 the night of the 6th, because when Gabriel Doxtator 16 testified in this Inquiry, and this was on November 30th, 17 the second day of his evidence, at page 126. You'll bear 18 with me just for a minute please, sir. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Pardon me, at page 125 is where it 23 starts, the date is November 30th. 24 25
2301 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Pardon me, I'm going to refer instead 4 to the evidence of Buck Doxtator, which is on November 5 25th at page 188. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Buck Doxtator was asked: 10 "Did you make any other phone calls 11 that evening before the police marched 12 down?" 13 And the answer he gave was: 14 "I believe I called back to Oneida and 15 it might have been Layton Elijah that I 16 phoned and told him that something was 17 probably going to happen. There's 18 police everywhere. There was only a 19 handful of men there and they wanted 20 more guys down there, but they said 21 they can't come, you know?" 22 Q: Who said they can't come? 23 A: Layton. 24 Q: Okay, did he give you a reason why 25 they couldn't come?
2311 A: I can't remember at this -- right 2 now, but he just said they couldn't get 3 there 4 anyways because of the build up of 5 police, whatever -- whatever they got 6 the information. The said they 7 couldn't get there anyways. 8 There was no way they -- the roads were 9 blocked." 10 Now it appears that Buck Doxtator's 11 evidence is that he spoke to you on the 6th, but he spoke 12 to you before the police marched down to the Park and 13 there was the altercation at the Park. 14 Now is it possible, sir, that your 15 conversation with Buck Doxtator on the telephone occurred 16 earlier in the evening? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: If you'd just bear with me for a 23 moment, sir. And coming back to the evidence of Gabriel 24 Doxtator... 25
2321 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: He -- or neither he nor Buck Doxtator 4 gave any evidence about calling you on the night of 5 September the 6th when the police were still present at 6 the Park. 7 Now, would you agree with me that if these 8 people are calling you and they're -- they're telling you 9 that police are shooting and the police are right there, 10 that would be a very dramatic moment, right? 11 A: I told you of if you were listening - 12 Q: I was listening. 13 A: Okay. When Gabe called I could 14 hardly understand him. He was so -- I don't know how to 15 call it, hyperventilated. 16 Q: Okay. So would you agree with me it 17 was a very dramatic moment, right? 18 A: That's why he was like that. 19 Q: Right. And isn't it likely that he 20 would remember a thing like that and tell this Commission 21 about it if it happened? 22 A: Maybe he did. 23 Q: Well, no he didn't, sir; that's what 24 I'm putting to you. 25 A: Well, I know what -- I know what
2331 happened, I know the phone calls I got. I don't know who 2 they phoned but I know what I got, the times I got it and 3 that's about it. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm just having an 6 opportunity to review the transcript of Gabriel Doxtator, 7 and in fairness, unless I'm misunderstanding the 8 questions, Gabriel's evidence was that they called Layton 9 to tell him that Dudley had been shot and that he may 10 have called him earlier on to -- to get some help. 11 And the conversation's not very specific 12 or at least the examination in terms of what exactly 13 transpired. But there seems to be evidence of two (2) 14 calls. One (1) after Dudley was shot, one before. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: In other 16 words his evidence may not be inconsistent with what 17 we're hearing? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That insofar as I think 19 is being suggested. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 21 sure, Mr. Downard? 22 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Let me -- let me put 23 it this way. What I suggest to you, sir, that if Gabriel 24 Doxtator had said the sort of things to you, that you 25 describe him as saying on the night of the 6th, that was
2341 very dramatic and he would be expected to recall that and 2 tell this Commission about it. 3 THE WITNESS: Maybe he did. Maybe he 4 never, I don't know, I wasn't here. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 6 Ross? Do you want to refer to what Gabriel Doxtator 7 said? 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: It would depend on the 9 question that he was asked. He can be taken through his 10 direct and he does not ask the question in cross that can 11 account for the gap, if there's a gap. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 14 Q: Sir, I'm putting to you -- I'm 15 putting to you, that neither Gabriel Doxtator nor Buck 16 Doxtator told this Commission that they called you and 17 the police were right there at the Park. 18 What do you say about that? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, I -- 20 THE WITNESS: You can -- you can say what 21 you want. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 23 minute, Mr. Elijah. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, that's fair 25 enough but, you know, I really think that the evidence
2351 should be read. If we're going to go through this 2 careful analysis, there was a cross-examination by Ian 3 Roland, and Gabriel did say that he thought that he 4 called before, as well, to get some help. 5 It wasn't asked whether or not police were 6 present at that time, but it might be inferred if a call 7 was made before Dudley George was shot, that it -- that 8 it was in that time frame. And to say that it's a 9 dramatic contradiction, in my respectful submission, is 10 overstating it. 11 MR. PETER DOWNARD: My -- My Friend's not 12 listening to me. My -- what I'm -- what I'm saying is, 13 that there is no evidence that either Gabriel or Buck 14 Doxtator called this witness when the police were at the 15 Park, that's what this Witness is saying they did. And I 16 -- and I'm -- I'm putting it to the -- I want to put that 17 to this Witness and see what he says. 18 THE WITNESS: And I'm saying -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 20 hear what he says. 21 THE WITNESS: -- and I'm saying to you, 22 sir, they did. Sorry, for what you think. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 25 Q: Well, I'm putting to you, sir, that
2361 you're making it up. 2 A: Well, I'm going to say you're making 3 yours up. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. Okay. Now, you said that 8 when you called the OPP on the night of the 6th, that you 9 spoke to an operator, who you -- you knew; right? 10 A: A secretary. 11 Q: Right, and -- and you had called her 12 on previous occasions and you were familiar with her; 13 right? 14 A: I was familiar with all of the 15 secretaries up to that point. 16 Q: So, you were familiar with her; 17 right? 18 A: Well, I know if you're going to ask 19 me for a name, I don't know her name. 20 Q: I'm not asking you for her name, I'm 21 just asking you whether you were familiar with her? 22 A: I was familiar with that number, 23 how's that? 24 Q: Were you -- well, you just told me 25 you're familiar with all the secretaries, does that mean
2371 you were familiar with her? 2 A: It could be. 3 Q: Could be? So, now you're not sure; 4 is that right? 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: All right. So, you're not sure 7 whether you're familiar with her, but you said you wanted 8 to talk to anybody around Camp Ipperwash in charge of 9 that, and she said, according to you, quote: 10 "Oh, it happened, already." 11 Unquote. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Well, what did you think about that? 14 A: I said to her, Something happened, 15 yes. 16 Q: Well -- 17 A: Yes, something happened. 18 Q: Okay. Now, is that before or after 19 she said, Oh it happened already? 20 A: That was after. I said, Give me -- I 21 want to talk to somebody in charge, I want to talk to 22 anybody that's around there and she says, Oh, did it 23 happen already? And I go, Yes, something happened. 24 Q: So, when she said, Oh, did it happen 25 already, were you taking inference from that that she had
2381 been expecting something to happen? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did that cause you concern that -- 4 that she -- that this operator at the OPP had been 5 expecting something -- sort of say, something bad to 6 happen at the Camp? 7 A: I still had to call and try my best 8 to ask the OPP to back up. 9 Q: Sure, sure. I understand that 10 completely. 11 A: Thank you. 12 Q: But -- but did it cause you concern 13 that she appeared to have some -- have had some advance 14 knowledge that something bad was going to happen? 15 A: I reported it to SIU. 16 Q: You reported that to the SIU.? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: That's interesting, and when did you 19 report that to the SIU.? 20 A: Right away. 21 Q: So, within a day or two (2) days? 22 A: No, you heard when I first met him, I 23 first met him in about September -- it was about a week 24 after. 25 Q: About a week after? Okay. So, some
2391 time between the 10th and the 15th? 2 A: That's good. 3 Q: And what did you -- what did you tell 4 the SIU, in that regard? 5 A: I told them I was -- the way I said 6 it to them was, I think it was a plan. 7 Q: And when you said you thought it was 8 a plan, you mean a plan by the OPP to move in on the 9 occupiers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you told the SIU that one of the 12 -- at least one (1) reason why you thought it was a plan 13 was because of this conversation you had with the 14 operator? 15 A: Oh, yes. 16 Q: Okay. Now, we've received -- well, 17 first of all, first of all, let me just back up for a 18 second. 19 I take it you understood that what the SIU 20 was doing was as a body that was supposed to be an 21 independent investigative body, investigating the conduct 22 of the OPP; right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I can tell you, we've received an 25 immense amount of documentation that relates to the SIU
2401 investigation. But I believe it's fair to say, that 2 there isn't the slightest mention in any of this 3 documentation of this conversation with the operator. 4 Now, in light of that, is it possible that 5 you are incorrect in recalling this conversation with the 6 operator? 7 A: No, no way possible at all, never. 8 It happened. 9 Q: All right. Okay, now I want to step 10 into something else for a minute and maybe it's not my 11 function, but I'm too intrigued by it. 12 You said that there was a third -- you 13 talk about two (2) conversations with Doug Babbitt, the 14 OPP officer, and then you talked about a third contact 15 that you made, I think on a cell phone -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: In which -- I just want to make sure 20 I've got this right, in which there was a reference by 21 Babbitt to John Carson? Have I got that right? 22 A: In all three (3) calls, yes. 23 Q: Okay. Well, I guess what I'm -- I'm 24 a little bit unclear about what the content of the third 25 call was, and when you made the call on the cell phone.
2411 A: Did you hear it? 2 Q: Well, I didn't hear it, that's the 3 problem. I didn't hear enough about it, so -- 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: -- what I want to hear is everything 6 that was said in that third conversation with Babbitt on 7 the cell phone. 8 A: Okay, I started out the conversation 9 was, why they done what they done? It wasn't with John 10 Carson, it was Babbitt. 11 Q: It was Babbitt, right. 12 A: I asked if we could speak to John 13 Carson, because we already knew he was in charge. He was 14 still in the field and we asked what -- what's he doing 15 in the field? 16 He's cleaning up. 17 Q: Oh, he said he's cleaning up? 18 A: Yeah, he's cleaning up in the field. 19 Q: Oh, really? 20 A: Yes, and whatever that means, that -- 21 that could be getting his men out or cleaning all his 22 tarps and whatever out of there. He's police -- 23 whatever, out, at that time, the third call. 24 And then it went on, someone else jumped 25 on on, I'm not -- somebody else jumped on the phone and
2421 said, I demand you put John Carson on the phone. 2 And they go, No, we can't do that. John 3 Carson takes orders. 4 Q: Who was it who told you John Carson 5 takes orders? 6 A: Doug Babbitt. 7 Q: Who did he say he'd take orders from? 8 A: Probably Mike Harris. 9 Q: Probably, right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Yes. And that's just your 12 speculation, right? 13 A: You said it. 14 Q: That's right, so you can attack the 15 OPP and you can attack Mike Harris; right? 16 A: Did I say that? 17 Q: No, I'm putting to you that that's 18 why you said -- 19 A: I know you're saying that -- 20 Q: You're making it up again -- 21 A: -- I can hear you, no I'm not. 22 Q: You're making it up. 23 A: No, I'm not. I know everything that 24 happened that night, sir. 25 Q: I'm sure you think you do, sir.
2431 A: No, I do. 2 Q: Okay, so you were told in this third 3 call, that Carson was cleaning up, right? 4 A: Yes, in the field. 5 Q: Okay, now did you report this call to 6 the SIU? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Why not? 9 A: They knew -- they tried to get all my 10 phone calls. I told them how many calls were made from 11 my house and there was a cell phone that I couldn't be 12 responsible for. 13 Q: Okay, so -- 14 A: So I told them, we asked three (3) 15 times we called. 16 Q: Okay, so you -- okay, but you didn't 17 tell them about this call in which you were told that 18 Carson was cleaning up? 19 A: I think they know that. I think they 20 know that. 21 Q: Well, sir, you think a lot of things. 22 Now, I take it though, to be clear, you -- you didn't 23 tell them about this -- this reference to Carson cleaning 24 up; right? 25 A: Let's say no, just for -- to keep you
2441 happy. 2 Q: No, no, don't keep me happy. 3 A: That's what I'm here for. 4 Q: I want to be clear on this, sir, I 5 want to know -- 6 A: That's why I'm here, to keep you 7 happy, sir. 8 Q: No, no. You're not doing a very good 9 job. 10 A: No, well -- 11 Q: So -- 12 A: -- neither are you. 13 Q: I just want the truth from you, sir. 14 A: And I'm telling the truth, like we 15 said in the beginning. Why didn't you take an Oath? 16 Q: Sir, did you tell the SIU that you'd 17 been told in this call, after the -- yes, no problem. 18 Sir, were you told in this call, after the 19 violent events of the night of September 6th, did you 20 tell the SIU that you were told that Carson was cleaning 21 up? 22 A: I could have. 23 Q: Now, you could have? 24 A: Yes, I could have. 25 Q: Okay.
2451 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: But you don't recall? You don't 4 recall whether you did? 5 A: You'll be surprised. 6 Q: No, I just want to know whether you 7 were recall. 8 A: No, there's some things I can't 9 answer, sir, and that's one (1) of them. 10 Q: I see. Well, now, this reference to 11 John Carson taking orders -- 12 A: Yes, that happened. 13 Q: Well, did you report that to the SIU? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: You did? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: Well, again I have to tell, we 18 haven't received the slightest indication in any of the 19 SIU materials we've got, that there was any statement by 20 anybody in the OPP that John Carson was taking orders 21 from anybody that night. 22 Now, I put it to you that if that 23 statement had been -- had been made to you and reported 24 by you to the SIU, it would be in that material, and it's 25 not there.
2461 And I put it to you that you're making it 2 up. 3 A: I'm not making it up, sir, that's the 4 second time you asked me that. 5 Q: Sir, this is just what I'm going to 6 argue at the end of the day -- 7 A: I know -- 8 Q: -- on your -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- capability and I got to put it to 11 you to be fair. 12 A: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And as I understand it, you didn't 17 make any notes about any of these telephone calls that 18 you're talking about. You didn't make any notes about 19 any of these telephone calls you've been talking about so 20 far, right? 21 A: Right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: You mean right on the day or some
2471 time after? 2 Q: Right on the day or some time after. 3 A: Oh yeah, some time after, yeah. 4 Q: When? 5 A: Some time after -- 6 Q: Okay -- 7 A: -- about a month -- 8 Q: -- how -- 9 A: About a month, once it started to 10 become a real big issue. 11 Q: About a month after? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay, well where are those notes? 14 A: They're at home. 15 Q: Oh, well could you bring -- well, 16 that'd be interesting. You didn't provide those to the 17 Commission? 18 A: They're three (3) pages. I don't 19 know if they're outside. I don't think so, but, yes I 20 wrote it down on yellow paper. 21 Q: I see, would you -- 22 A: I wrote down the whole -- phone 23 calls, I wrote down when I got there. I'll mail it to 24 you. 25 Q: Well, don't mail it to me. Please
2481 bring it in to Commission Counsel if you can, because I'm 2 sure everyone would like to see these notes. 3 Would you be prepared to do that? 4 A: Probably sometime. 5 Q: Well, could you do it -- could you do 6 it this week? 7 A: Sure. 8 Q: Right, thank you very much. Now, 9 sir, you -- you talked about getting the phone bill for 10 September of 1995, and it being blacked out -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- physically, with black ink? 13 A: Yes, and they weren't there. It was 14 just a blank, it was -- just -- what do you call, 15 omitted, right out of there. There was -- it was just 16 like those days never happened. 17 So, my wife -- 18 Q: Well, okay, if I can just stick on 19 this point and I'll come back to what your wife said in a 20 minute or whatever your wife did. 21 So, was it like a white space or a black 22 space or what? What did it look like? 23 A: Okay, the first one was blacked out. 24 Q: Okay, did it look like there was 25 black ink applied to the paper or --
2491 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- was it -- 3 A: Black ink applied to the paper. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: But it was like a photocopy. 6 Q: It was a photocopy of what looked 7 like black ink having been -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- applied -- okay. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that was the original -- 12 A: Because it wasn't like right there. 13 Q: Right, and that was the first bill 14 that you got in the mail? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. You were going to say 17 something about your wife and I interrupted you. 18 A: Okay, no, she asked for a second 19 because the SIU wanted that bill, so she wrote away for 20 it. The first time, she wrote away and they sent back 21 one that the days were missing. 22 It wasn't blacked out. 23 Q: They sent back a second bill with 24 days missing? 25 A: Yes.
2501 Q: So what did the bill look like? 2 A: Like that. 3 Q: White space? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So white space in a list of -- of 6 phone records where you'd expect more phone records to 7 be? 8 A: Yes, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And -- all right, so after you 10 -- you see the -- the phone bill that's blacked out, and 11 then after you see the phone bill that's whited out, as 12 it were, what did you think was going on? 13 A: Same thing you would, probably, that 14 something was going on. 15 Q: Well, so what did you think? 16 A: I thought something funny was going 17 on, sir. 18 Q: Something funny like -- like what? 19 A: Like, there should have been days 20 there. 21 Q: So, why did you think there were no 22 days there? 23 A: I'd like to know that, too. 24 Q: You were -- but you were suspicious 25 that something was going on; right?
2511 A: Wouldn't you? 2 Q: Well, I'm just asking you, you -- you 3 told me, I thought you were suspicious that something was 4 going on and I'm just trying to get clear on -- on what 5 you -- what you thought was going on? 6 A: Yeah, I just thought something funny 7 was going on. 8 Q: All right. Well, okay, so, I'd 9 suggest to you that if you're getting these phone bills 10 with these mysterious obliterations or omissions of 11 information regarding the dates when the Ipperwash 12 occupation of the Park and the violence at the Park was 13 going on, that that would be a pretty significant 14 document, right? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And, all right, but you -- you didn't 17 keep a copy of this document, right? 18 A: No, I was at Camp Ipperwash, I never 19 moved from there. 20 Q: And you don't have a copy of this 21 document? 22 A: No, I was at -- no. 23 Q: And, you -- you say you -- you gave 24 this document to the SIU? 25 A: I think I gave them the second
2521 document. 2 Q: Which was the whited out document? 3 A: Yes, and we received a letter from 4 Bell Canada stating that, Sorry for the inconvenience. 5 If there's anything missed you will not be billed. And 6 we received a third one and that's the third one that you 7 have there. 8 Q: Okay. Well, sir, did -- did you keep 9 the letter that you got from Bell Canada? 10 A: I don't know. No, I don't think so. 11 Q: Why didn't you keep that? 12 A: It didn't help. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 14 didn't hear your answer. 15 THE WITNESS: It didn't help. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It didn't 17 help. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 20 Q: Now, you talked about seeing on 21 another day -- is that camouflaged guys with a van who 22 were -- they were running into the -- was it the MNR 23 parking lot and getting garbage bags and material and 24 taking it out? These are the -- these are the fellows 25 who -- who you made an inquiry about licence plates?
2531 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Do you recall that? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: So, I've got that right? These were 5 people you saw who'd pull up in a van, come out in their 6 -- their camouflage gear, go into the MNR parking lot and 7 come back with stuff in bags? I -- I got it wrong? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay, give it to me right, please. 10 A: I said it was right directly across 11 from the park behind the A-frame. 12 Q: Sorry, thank you very much. 13 A: You're welcome. 14 Q: So, as I understand, you -- you took 15 the licence plate number from this vehicle? 16 A: From two (2) or three (3) different 17 vehicles. 18 Q: Yeah, right, because -- Okay. So, 19 it's two (2) or three (3) different vehicles and so you 20 wrote down those licence plate numbers? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And you reported those licence 23 plate numbers was -- who -- who was that to, the OPP? 24 A: No, it was Native police. 25 Q: The Native police?
2541 A: Yes. 2 Q: And is -- is that the Kettle Point 3 police? 4 A: No, I think the Anishnaabeg police. 5 Q: Okay. And they came back to you and 6 told you those licence plates were unobtainable? 7 A: Unattainable. 8 Q: Unattainable? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: That you couldn't get them; you 11 couldn't find out any information on the basis of those 12 licence plates? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: So, all right, well, did you keep the 15 information as to those licence plates? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Why not? 18 A: The police had them. 19 Q: Well, you'd written them down. I -- 20 I take it you were suspicious that there was some sort of 21 police activity or something like that going on here? 22 You -- you wanted to know -- you wanted to know more 23 information about these license plates and -- and who 24 owned them right? 25 A: I found that at that time they
2551 couldn't be trusted. 2 Q: You found at that time you couldn't 3 trust who? 4 A: Anishnaabeg police. 5 Q: Okay. But you trusted the SIU, 6 right? 7 A: Oh yeah. 8 Q: Okay so why wouldn't you keep the -- 9 the information and give it to the SIU? 10 A: I didn't know if I would ever meet 11 the SIU. 12 Q: Okay. So -- 13 A: This was just happened days -- just 14 days after we got there. 15 Q: Okay. But you met -- sorry, you met 16 with the SIU the first time, what about? About a week 17 after you got there? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Why didn't you -- you keep it for -- 20 A: I didn't know I was going to. 21 Q: I see, okay. You just threw it away? 22 A: No. I lost it. 23 Q: You lost it. Yes, I see. And you 24 were talking about the floppy disk. And I -- I think you 25 were saying that in one of the trailers you looked at
2561 that there was a stack of floppy disks but this 2 particular floppy disk was of interest to you because it 3 was found out in the field. Right? 4 A: Yes. It was handed to me by itself 5 where the other ones came with about eight (8) or ten 6 (10). 7 Q: Okay. And so had you seen this -- 8 did you find the disk in the field? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Who found the disk in the field? 11 A: One (1) of the guys. I don't know 12 who. I don't know. 13 Q: Did you see them find the disk in the 14 field? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did they tell you they found the disk 17 in the field? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And -- all right, so there's 20 this disk out in the field. And I -- I take it you -- 21 you had some concern because there was a stack of disks 22 in the -- in the trailer but there's this one (1) disk 23 out in the field? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And what were you concerned
2571 about, in that regard? 2 A: I was just wondering how come it was 3 out there. 4 Q: You thought somebody tried to hide it 5 something? Is that what you're suggesting? 6 A: No. 7 Q: You were just wondering why it was 8 out in the field? 9 A: Yeah. I just thought maybe they had 10 a computer out there too. 11 Q: In the field? 12 A: Yeah. I didn't know. 13 Q: Okay. All right. And you called in 14 the hackers, the guys from Kahnawake? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you say it took them a couple of 17 days to get into the disk. And they called you back and 18 -- and they said, Gee, five (5) times in March and April 19 the -- the TRU team was in your place. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what was being referred to as 22 your place? 23 A: Oneida settlement. 24 Q: At Oneida settlement? I see. And 25 was that -- I -- I take it that information was of
2581 significance to you, right? 2 A: Was it ever. 3 Q: It was. It was a big significance, 4 right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And was there anything else 7 they told you was on that disk? 8 A: Nothing that would say they were 9 going to attack on September 6th. There was lots of 10 stuff on there but nothing that said that the OPP was 11 going to do that on September 6th; that's what we were 12 looking for. 13 Q: And the only information on that disk 14 related to Oneida. 15 A: Oh, no. Oh, no. A lot of places but 16 that's the only one that was the main interest to me. 17 Q: Well, did they tell you -- all 18 right. Did -- what did you do next with respect to this 19 disk after you got the information from the hackers? 20 A: I gave it to SIU. 21 Q: You gave the disk to the SIU? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And when did you do that? 24 A: Probably December 3rd or December 25 something. I don't know. I don't even know the date.
2591 It was a long time after. 2 Q: Was it -- do you think it was still 3 in 1995? 4 A: It could have been. 5 Q: But you're not sure. 6 A: No. 7 Q: So -- so what had happened? You just 8 -- you gave -- you gave the disk to these -- the hackers 9 and were the hackers in Camp Ipperwash or where were 10 they? 11 A: Yeah, they got there. 12 Q: Okay. And then after they did their 13 hacking, they gave you back the disk? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now I want to come to the 19 conversation with -- with Potts on the bridge for a 20 minute, about, You're not getting out of there alive, 21 which we've gone over. 22 You said you made a complaint about that 23 conversation to the SIU; right? Correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you say you trusted the SIU.
2601 Right? 2 A: I still do. 3 Q: And you still do? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: But I take it to your knowledge, they 6 did nothing to follow up on that complaint? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Didn't that concern you? 9 A: No. 10 Q: It didn't concern you? And, sir, I 11 have to tell you that the -- the first that we've heard 12 of this conversation is, again, this week in the evidence 13 of Mr. Pouget and in your evidence. And in all the 14 material we've gotten from the SIU, there's not the 15 slightest indication that -- that they ever learned of 16 any such conduct on the part of an OPP officer. 17 Now, does that cause you to reconsider? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: It -- it happened, sir. I'm sorry, 21 but it did. 22 Q: Don't be sorry, I just want to know 23 what the truth is sir. 24 A: That's the truth. 25 Q: Now, you talked about your
2611 conversation and you were very specific about the date of 2 December 3rd, 1995, with Mr. Kobayashi in which Mr. 3 Kobayashi made a statement about his boss being at a 4 meeting and about my client, the former Premier, making 5 an order. 6 And you said that you -- you told the SIU 7 about that conversation as well, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And when did you tell the SIU 10 about it? 11 A: As soon as I could. 12 Q: As soon as you could? So that would 13 have been within a matter of days after -- 14 A: Weeks -- a couple of weeks. 15 Q: A couple of weeks after December 3rd? 16 A: We didn't meet every day. 17 Q: Okay. Who -- 18 A: We don't talk on the phone. 19 Q: Okay. Sorry. 20 A: We didn't talk on the phone. 21 Q: What did you say about meeting every 22 day? 23 A: We didn't ever meet every day. 24 Q: Right. And who of the SIU did you 25 tell it to a couple of weeks after December 3rd?
2621 A: I don't know. 2 Q: You don't know? 3 A: No. Well, how did you tell it to 4 them? 5 A: Talked person to person. 6 Q: You don't recall who it was you spoke 7 to? 8 A: No, I -- I've spoken to three (3) or 9 four (4) of them. 10 Q: Do you have a -- okay, well, who are 11 the possible candidates? 12 A: Wayne Allen, Jim Kennedy, Stan 13 Thompson. 14 Q: Three (3) people? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Anybody else? 17 A: There was more, but they weren't 18 there this close. They got there later on. 19 Q: You mean this close in time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. All right, well, again we 22 haven't seen a scrap of paper from the SIU to support any 23 such allegation. 24 A: That's -- that's okay, you'll 25 probably hear it, though.
2631 Q: Well, I guess we'll see. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: Now, you -- all right. That -- that 4 doesn't cause you any concern about your evidence? 5 A: No, none whatsoever. 6 Q: Okay. And, you said you told Ben 7 Pouget about this conversation with Mr. Kobayashi? 8 A: Oh, yeah. 9 Q: All right. And Ben Pouget was here 10 this week and he had no hesitation about talking about 11 the conversation with Officer Potts with the -- the 12 threat, but Ben Pouget didn't say a word about this 13 conversation with Mr. Kobayashi. 14 A: Nobody asked him. 15 Q: I see. So, that doesn't cause you 16 any concern about your evidence, either? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I see. And you said you -- you told 19 Judas George about this conversation, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Roderick George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And Roderick George testified 24 at length, all these witnesses were interviewed by the 25 Commission for what -- whatever information they had in
2641 advance of their testimony. 2 A: I don't know if they were asked that 3 or not, sir. 4 Q: I'm not asking whether they were 5 asked that or not, all I'm telling you is that Roderick 6 George did not make any reference whatsoever in this 7 Commission where hearsay evidence is -- is being heard, 8 to this conversation. Does that cause you to reconsider? 9 A: No, it doesn't. 10 Q: And you said you told lots of people? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: Okay. And we are getting very near 13 the end of the many First Nations witnesses we have heard 14 and not one (1) Stoney Point witness has testified to any 15 such allegation being made, any such statement being made 16 by Mr. Kobayashi through you or anybody else. 17 A: I'm not -- 18 Q: Does that cause you to reconsider? 19 A: No. Can I say something? 20 Q: No, I'm cross-examining you, sir. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: I'm just cross-examining you as to 23 your credibility. All right? 24 A: Okay. Okay. That's -- that's just 25 fine.
2651 Q: All right. And I'm putting it to 2 you, sir, that you are an adversarial witness, you are 3 exaggerating these circumstances and that you are making 4 this up. 5 A: No, sir, no -- no way. 6 Q: All right. Now, you talked about the 7 reporter, Jim Moses, or the purported reporter, Jim 8 Moses, who seems to be a somewhat shady character. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Right? At least as he's described to 11 us, and he came by to see you at around 2:30 or 3:00 p.m. 12 You were cutting the grass in your yard? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And this was before the violence at 15 the Park, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And he talked about a 18 bunch of Natives being in the Park with AK-47s, Mini-14s, 19 AR-15s, various nasty military assault weapons, right? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Okay. And you said, you're crazy, 22 they're just out there fishing. He said, no, he knew 23 from his police intelligence that he'd just come from 24 speaking with the Band Chief, Harry Doxtator, he said you 25 were the man to talk to, because the guys at Ipperwash
2661 camp won't listen to him, they will listen to you. 2 Now, have I got that generally right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And you said -- your response 5 to that was: "That's -- whatever. It's just hearsay," 6 right? 7 A: I didn't believe him. 8 Q: Right, because it was just hearsay, 9 right? 10 A: Until two (2) days later and then I 11 really believed him, what he said -- 12 Q: Yeah, and I know sir, but what you 13 said this morning on your Oath, was that you didn't 14 believe him because that was just hearsay, right? 15 A: At the time. 16 Q: Thank you very much, sir, those are 17 my questions. 18 A: Thank you very much. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you have 20 any questions, Mr. Roebuck? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. DAVID ROEBUCK: 25 Q: Mr. Elijah, my name's David Roebuck
2671 and I represent Debbie Hutton. You've told My Friends 2 that when you got back to the camp after your drive to 3 Pinery Point with Mr. Kobayashi that you -- you told a 4 number of people about the comment about Mr. Harris' 5 responsibility -- 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: Ben Pouget and Roderick George and 8 others? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And they all said to you that they'd 11 heard that in the newspapers, right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: So had you, at that stage, heard that 14 theory in the newspapers as well? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: All right, so I want to go back to 17 the conversation that you had with Mr. Kobayashi, and I 18 take it from your description of the evidence that over 19 these number of meetings that you had with him, you'd 20 felt that you had certain things in common and that you 21 felt comfortable speaking to him openly? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in -- in -- you, of course, as 24 you've told us, you weren't present at the Provincial 25 Park or Camp Ipperwash on the night of September 6th,
2681 1995? 2 A: No. 3 Q: So, it's clear when you're having 4 this conversation about responsibility that you don't 5 have any first-hand knowledge about who gave orders? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And what you're doing is, in effect, 8 putting to Mr. Kobayashi, your personal theory -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- isn't that correct? Okay, and, 11 you know, you're just having that type of a conversation. 12 I'll tell you my theory, you tell me yours, is that fair? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And -- and you tell him your 15 theory and he tells you a theory that was openly in the 16 press for -- and which quite a number of people, 17 including yourself, had already heard -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- correct? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And he also tells you in the same 22 conversation that his -- his boss had attended a meeting 23 that had some relationship to his adoption of this 24 theory -- 25 A: Yes.
2691 Q: -- right? And that's really it; 2 you're trading theories. He gives you your theory, you 3 give him his, right? 4 A: Could be it, yes. 5 Q: Thank you very much, sir. 6 A: It's okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. I think that's all the cross-examination that 9 we could achieve with this witness. We're going to have 10 to, as I said, reserve on Andrea Tuck-Jackson and Karen 11 Jones for the OPP and the OPPA. 12 So, is there anything we can do this 13 afternoon? 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well we do have the 15 videotaped interview of Robert Isaac. It's about forty 16 (40) minutes. We could stay late and watch that. We did 17 provide the transcript of that interview to the parties. 18 So that's something that we could 19 certainly do now. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 21 should do that then, if we're done with -- 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Perhaps I could just 23 explain to Mr. Elijah what's happened. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Essentially two (2) of
2701 the counsel will be commencing their cross-examination of 2 you I expect tomorrow. Is that correct? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: They're just 4 conferring. Is it possible that you will conduct your 5 cross-examination of Mr. Elijah tomorrow? 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I did say that, 7 sir, yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And the same 9 for you, Ms. Jones, I presume? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Hopefully. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Well so 13 that we'll hold the witness over as a result and so 14 tomorrow at -- at 9:00 a.m. is when we'll resume your 15 cross-examination. 16 THE WITNESS: That's fine by me. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're free 19 to leave now, if you wish too, thank you. 20 THE WITNESS: Nice meeting you all. 21 22 (WITNESS RETIRES) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take - 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right.
2711 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We might as 2 well do it because we're going to have to see this at 3 some point. It's only four o'clock. I think we should 4 do it. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. It will 6 take a couple of minutes to do that. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Just for 11 the record this has been filed already as Exhibit 287 and 12 it is an interview conducted by John and Joan Goldi of 13 Robert Isaac who as was explained before is deceased and 14 hence we are playing this tape. 15 Mr. Elijah, you can leave. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can 17 leave. I don't have -- oh there it is; that's fine. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And you're welcome to 19 sit in the audience or to leave. 20 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: I will. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's just 23 hold it a second and give Mr. Elijah a chance to leave. 24 Just hold it for a second. 25 When this tape is over, we're going to
2721 adjourn for the day? 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right -- about 5 forty (40) minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you can 7 sit and relax or you can leave if you want to. I'm going 8 to sit and watch. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. May I start 10 then? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 13 (VIDEO TRANSCRIPTION COMMENCES) 14 15 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: And the cops were 16 really coming in. 17 They just had the whole Army Camp Road 18 covered and they were going down the road along the lake. 19 I don't know, the road; that's the road that turns off of 20 the corner of the Park going west. 21 And that night was the night they killed 22 Dudley. And we, you know -- because we had guys out in 23 the woods behind them watching them and our report that 24 came in is they're coming in full with tactical gear. 25 And they could count the weapons. The
2731 guys their weapons ready. This was maybe two (2) hours 2 before all those cops show up. Walls and walls of cops. 3 So I took it on myself to make sure that, 4 you know, we've been doing the same thing daily. Get 5 those fires going boys. Illuminate those roads and my 6 job was just going around in circles making sure the 7 young guys did their jobs. And a lot of time I'd spend 8 there right there in that corner of the Park where the 9 cops always been. 10 And when Glenn came down in the pickup 11 truck he said, Look, Robert, what do you think? I said 12 they're getting ready, they're coming -- because I seen 13 them loading up the guns, putting the clips in the guns, 14 you know. 15 They had maps out on the hoods of their 16 cars and they start moving around like they were in a 17 rush to do something. Folding up maps, jumping in their 18 cars, taking off. You know, he's going back and forth. 19 I said, Glenn, it's time, they're going to 20 come in now. So me and Glenn rode up in a dump truck. 21 We tried to wake everybody up in the Park -- I mean in 22 the base here. The ones that were bold enough to go, 23 which ended up maybe a couple more, the other ones stay 24 here up in the base part. And then I went down that 25 night.
2741 MR. JOHN GOLDI: You're okay? 2 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: I don't know. Okay. 3 All this time I would leave maybe every couple of hours 4 and come up to the base and the guys that were here, that 5 were supposed to be, I don't know, negotiations or 6 talking to the cops or whoever, the go-between was 7 between the cops and our people. 8 So I'd give a report, you know, just a 9 summary of what's happening and things are cool or you 10 know, what is going on. 11 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Okay. 12 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: Okay. Well, we all 13 re-grouped in the Park. We had a few words, you know, 14 that, you know, they were going to come in. We knew 15 this, we could feel it in your heart. And when you know 16 this, it's like smelling death. Just before something 17 happens, you have a gut feeling. 18 And I guess an hour before they came in, 19 they all disappeared off Army Camp Road. You know what 20 they did? They went down on the one road I was talking 21 about where all the cottages are. It seemed like vans 22 and everybody disappeared. You know what they doing? 23 They were gearing up. 24 And they say that the only cops they 25 called were from London, a special squad that takes care
2751 of things like that. Why did the other ones run? You 2 know, they all circled around. 3 But there's some -- a big -- one big block 4 that comes down on the one road over there. They all go 5 around and they have to come in that way behind their own 6 people to hide on us to go into where they were. They 7 were in, you know, through the trees back in there, it's 8 a sanded area. It's a good place to hide and set up and 9 get ready and sure enough, they did. 10 It was dark then, maybe an hour, two (2) 11 hours after dark and here comes Slippery, he shows up. 12 He says, I got some radios, two (2) way radios. He said, 13 I seen them. He said, I just rode by there; they -- they 14 tried to stop me, but I just went through. 15 And he said, Yeah, I've seen them. He 16 said, you know, there's hundreds of them down there. 17 There's vehicles -- that little parking area I'm talking 18 about where their command post was, the St. John 19 Ambulance and all that. He said, I'll run recon, Buck 20 stayed close to us, but he went, too, in through the 21 woods. 22 And apparently they knew that our guys 23 were there, but it was a little too dark and a little too 24 many bushes for them to get a clean shot at our guys. 25 And Buck came back first and I was standing at the gate,
2761 me and few other guys, and Slippery was still out there 2 and he was talking to us, he had his radio on all -- all 3 the time. 4 He said, Yeah, there's all kinds of them. 5 He said, I can't count them. He said, I can't see in the 6 dark, all I can see is the vehicles and the lights of the 7 vehicles and the -- through the -- they have a few 8 streetlights there. 9 And he said, There's this great big cable 10 lying across the road, electrical cable. He says, it's 11 not supposed to be there. He said, it must be, you know, 12 hooked up to one (1) of the cottages for communication 13 and he said, Well, he said, They're starting to come now 14 and he said, They're coming now. He said, I'm going to 15 stay ahead of them and I'll get back to you guys. 16 Within fifteen (15) minutes Slippery was 17 back and he -- he still wasn't on our side of the fence; 18 he was still hanging in the woods. We could hear him, we 19 had the radio on. He said, Here they come, walls and 20 walls of them. And I didn't -- really couldn't believe 21 it. And sure enough, I could see silhouettes down the 22 road in the dark, you know, there's one (1) light here on 23 the road and there's one (1) here. 24 In between you can't really see; you could 25 see the silhouette of the figures and we could hear them.
2771 They -- they were marching, not walking, marching, like 2 this Hitler's regime, you know. And they -- they stopped 3 out in the dark and all this time they were talking. 4 And Slippery said, They're almost to you, 5 you guys, they're right there now. You should be able to 6 see them; that's what he said, You should be able to see 7 them and that's when we started seeing them. 8 Then over the -- there was walls of them, 9 I can't say how many in one (1) wall, maybe forty (40). 10 And at that instant, the cops -- we picked up the cops on 11 our radio; they said, The badgers are in the Park, and to 12 this day, I believe there were assassins set up already. 13 They'd been there for nights, you know, in the bushes. 14 They said, The badgers are in the Park. I 15 said, Oh, oh, and started looking around and right then I 16 knew we were surrounded and there were snipers, plus 17 their -- their pawns, which I call, you know, their riot 18 people that line up in a line, and they come up to the 19 fence and they were swearing and calling us down and 20 telling us we have ten (10) minutes to leave. 21 Ten (10) minutes went by. Right on ten 22 (10) minutes, they moved in. They all came over to the 23 fence where we all were and they started beating with 24 their batons, beating on their -- their shields and one 25 (1) guy was calling out commands, I can't really say
2781 today what he was saying. 2 He was saying, Forward or something and 3 they all come marching right up to the fence beating on 4 the fence. Then he called them back and they went back 5 down the road maybe fifty (50) feet and that's when 6 Nigger -- I believe Nigger ran out -- out there -- Worm's 7 dog, that little puppy, that little black, you know, 8 mixed pitbull or whatever he is. 9 And Nigger started yelping; one (1) of the 10 guys must have kicked him or something and they moved in 11 a little further. They were in about the middle of that 12 service drive and Worm was -- got pissed off. He went 13 out there and said, Which one you guys kicked my dog. 14 And they, you know, they didn't care about 15 the dog. Then they start -- one guy started beating on 16 Worm. Then Worm said, Hand me a stick, because there was 17 a couple of guys standing behind -- behind Worm. 18 So Worm started beating on the -- those 19 cops too then they start swarming all over us and that's 20 when Slippery was down towards the lake, not very far. 21 Maybe fifty (50) feet away. And then all hell broke 22 loose. 23 They were going to beat Worm and beat 24 Slippery and the rest of us didn't do anything about it. 25 So we got all our sticks or whatever we grabbed a hold
2791 of, whatever was, you know, convenient. 2 And because we strongly believed it 3 wouldn't have ever came to that, you know; but it did. 4 Then they started getting the best of us. There must 5 have been, I can only speak for myself, maybe four (4) to 6 six (6) guys had me surrounded and beating on me. 7 Then some time while this was going on, 8 there was another wall start coming. And another wall of 9 police start coming. And you could see vans and the cars 10 start coming back, the police cars. 11 That's when -- all I could see was -- I 12 just happened to look over my right shoulder and there 13 was the bus. I had to get out of the way because they 14 were going to use vehicles too again like they did the 15 night before on the picnic tables. 16 That's when -- I guess Ugga (phonetic) was 17 driving the bus. Pushed a dumpster which we had that one 18 little gate blocked with. He ran into the dumpster, 19 pushing the dumpster, you know, it's not like -- I was 20 able to get out of the way. All our people were able to 21 get out of the way. 22 I don't know -- can't understand how it 23 endangered their lives, you know, because we were able 24 just to, you know, take one step forward -- the truck -- 25 the bus was going like that, slow. They were -- I
2801 believe they were so drunk, they were falling all over 2 each other. And all -- the next thing I knew was 3 gunshots. 4 It seemed like forever. But it was only 5 for an instant. All automatic weapons, and just like 6 popcorn popping. Then I heard a different sound fired 7 and it was like a piercing bullet, you know. Like I do, 8 you know -- I used to do a lot of hunting, like a rifle, 9 a long barrel makes a different noise than a short 10 barrel. 11 All the shooting and the bus was right 12 there. Then it seemed like somebody knocked me over but 13 there was nobody around me. I couldn't move. Then 14 Dudley said, Robert, I think I'm hit. Then I was able to 15 jump to my feet and get up. 16 Bullets were still, you know, fire was 17 still going on but they started retreating. Dudley came 18 towards me but he dropped maybe five (5) feet away from 19 me. And I took one look at his -- I could see the blood 20 coming from the heart area. And he started losing 21 consciousness. I ripped open his shirt. When I pulled 22 it down I could see. 23 He said I, you know, I'm hit in the 24 shoulder, he told me. I said, you know -- at first he 25 said -- I told him -- well I asked him, I said where are
2811 you hit? He said I think I'm hit in the shoulder. And 2 when I pulled his shirt I knew it was much lower. 3 That's when everything -- everybody 4 started going into shock. I kept my cool and the next 5 thing you know there was -- everyone there knew Dudley 6 had been shot. And before I knew it, there was five (5) 7 or six (6) guys surrounded by Dudley. 8 And I went -- my next move, I knew, was to 9 go get the "OPP WHO" car and get Dudley out of there as 10 fast as we could. Race back up to the camp area because 11 I knew that we'd never get out through Army Camp Road. 12 So we loaded Dudley up into the back seat. 13 By that time he was all bloody and slouched down. I told 14 J.T. to put some pressure on the wound. I believe it was 15 Joe sitting in the front seat with me. 16 And at that time there was cars. Our 17 people were in the way because they were coming down 18 where that one (1) building is in the Park; what they 19 call the maintenance building where the -- the garage is. 20 And I went through there. I didn't have 21 very good brakes but everybody seemed to get out of the 22 way just in time. We raced up to the front gate which is 23 right out here and I didn't want to take that car out, 24 you know, on a street out there, they'd shoot it up in a 25 minute.
2821 And Pierre happened to be watching the 2 front gate, Dudley's brother and sister Carolyn was 3 there. And I believe it was Marce (phonetic) and 4 Glenny's ma. And I took Pierre by surprise and Pierre 5 couldn't move. I had to tell Pierre, I had to get him 6 moving. He said, I ain't got no plates on that car. 7 I said, It doesn't matter. So just start 8 the car up. I said, Drive, just go. I said your brother 9 is -- might be dead now or he's dying. I said just go. 10 Don't even care. So they raced out the front gate, the 11 cops let them through. And that's the last I heard of 12 Pierre and them. 13 And somebody ended up calling the hospital 14 from -- from the restaurant in the Park. We found out 15 that Dudley was dead. And there it was probably good 16 half hour, I don't know, everybody to collect themselves. 17 And we said burn the -- burn the f'ing 18 restaurant. We lit it up and the cops never did return. 19 They never -- if they wanted the Park that bad they would 20 have came and got it, because we all evacuated the Park 21 because we didn't want anybody else getting killed. 22 The cops never did come back. If they 23 wanted the Park so bad I don't know why they didn't take 24 it after they shot Dudley. 25 Okay? Well that's -- can we take -- take
2831 a break. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Are you ready? 6 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: Yeah. I heard what 7 the cops said that -- we're out Army Camp Road in that 8 area of the Park and that we were -- we were happy just 9 contained in the Park. Just being present in the Park; 10 that was what we wanted to do. 11 It was a friendly occupation. They had 12 control of Army Camp Road. They were patrolling it. If 13 we went out on Army Camp Road they would've dragged us 14 one by one to jail. 15 They were the ones that evacuated the 16 people so it would there would be no white witnesses. 17 They were the ones that did all of this. We were -- we 18 didn't go on that side of the Park. 19 See, all this time the information we got 20 from our recon guys, they didn't come into the Park. 21 They didn't even enter the Base. In these situations, 22 there's guys, there's warriors that know what to do. 23 They'll stay behind the lines, behind the 24 cops and they'll snake through the woods and watch the 25 cops. And that's -- that's how we knew how many they
2841 were of -- you know, how many of -- there were of them, 2 basically. 3 And there's no way we went on -- went 4 beyond the fence, you know, that's a lie. The public has 5 to know this, you know. 6 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Okay take -- you're 7 saying the public has to know that we were behind the 8 fence of the Park the whole time, and talk about this. 9 Talk about this. MR. JOAN GOLDI: And the cops were 10 trying to get you to come out. 11 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Yeah, okay. The public 12 has to know, we never -- were in the Park behind the 13 fence the whole time. And they were trying to attack 14 and -- 15 MR. JOAN GOLDI: I mean, whatever -- they 16 can tell us whatever -- 17 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: I could say it that 18 easy. 19 Just use your words. 20 MR. JOHN GOLDI: No, this is -- 21 MR. JOAN GOLDI: No, we want your words. 22 We only want the truth. 23 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: Basically that's what 24 I was going to say anyway. 25 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Okay.
2851 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: Okay. All the time we 2 were in the Park there was a consensus amongst us that, 3 you know, our job was done, to occupy the Park. And the 4 public has to understand that we were being harassed, 5 provoked, whatever, to cross that line. 6 To us that was the line of death. And why 7 would we wander beyond that fence. Our job was done to 8 take over the Park. When the cops say that we were on 9 the road and that, that's one (1) big lie. 10 The days before this, they pulled the same 11 tactics daily, you know. Playing mind games with us. 12 Trying to get us over there. We didn't go. We knew 13 better. Because once we set foot across that fence we 14 would have been grabbed up because there was -- they were 15 there, you know. Humungous, big time. 16 Only a fool would venture out onto that 17 road and the dozen of us or so that were there, one (1) 18 out of a dozen is a lot of guys. I mean a lot, you know. 19 Maybe it's just a handful but when you start cutting your 20 fingers off, that hand becomes useless, you know. 21 So whatever they said about us being on 22 Army Camp Road or out of the Park, is a lie; that's all I 23 have to say about it. They can say whatever they want 24 but the truth will come out in the end. And the guilty 25 person, please
2861 stand up. 2 And they'll send one (1) of theirs, you 3 know. Why get, you know, get rid of one of theirs; 4 that'll settle everything and the same old game will 5 carry on again. They'll get rid of one to save their 6 regime so they can do this elsewhere in the country, the 7 different oppressed people. 8 You know, keep our mouths shut so we can't 9 do anything, keep our hands tied. 10 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Okay. Robert, that's 11 great. What do you say to people who say you had guns. 12 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: I say what guns? I 13 don't even own a gun. Guns weren't allowed in the camp. 14 The only way a handful of people can take back the land 15 is not by guns. We'd be -- just be committing suicide. 16 You know, we couldn't do that. 17 The whole -- coming home with the people 18 would've been thrown out the window if one (1) of us had 19 one (1) gun. We would've all been killed. You know, if 20 they seen one gun, that's how much they wanted us dead. 21 And after the cops left, they left behind 22 great behind great big floodlights, I guess they were 23 going to light up the murder scene with, or whatever you 24 call it. And why did they leave all this behind? Why 25 didn't they stand their ground if they're so right?
2871 Why did they run and leave vehicles and 2 get out of the areas as fast as they could? You know, if 3 we had guns, you know, we would have been dead. We knew 4 this. And to this day they're liars, they always will 5 be. Once they take that oath -- that oath, they become 6 another person; they become that badge. 7 And they forget about their families, 8 their people, just for a paycheque and that power that 9 they can push people around with, kill people. I seen it 10 all my life. And only a fool or somebody not in their 11 right mind would have gone on Army Camp Road any of those 12 days leading up to Dudley's death or after. 13 MR. JOHN GOLDI: What were the cops there 14 for that night? 15 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: They were there to 16 kill us. Why did they come after dark? Why couldn't 17 they do this when the sun was shining? What did they 18 have to hide? We had nothing to hide. We had bonfires, 19 they could see us sitting around the fires. 20 They knew damn well that we weren't -- 21 weren't going to leave that Park. Why did they have to 22 wait until after dark to do this? You know, that's a 23 cowardly way of doing things. Hopefully all the 24 people that they had evacuated that night along Army Camp 25 Road were gone. They spent much of two (2) days getting
2881 rid of them telling them they had to leave. 2 We didn't tell -- the Indians didn't tell 3 them they had to leave. The OPP did, so there would no 4 witnesses; that's what I believe. 5 MR. JOHN GOLDI: What about the SIU? 6 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: No, wait. What about 7 the ambulances that -- that were there? 8 MR. JOAN GOLDI: Tell us about, like did 9 the -- 10 MR. ROBERT ISAAC: Okay. After they 11 start shooting us up, there was ambulances parked down 12 the road from the immediate area -- were in the immediate 13 area, and after they shot us up they wouldn't even let 14 our people access to a telephone besides the one that was 15 at the restaurant or they -- it seemed at a time the 16 phone went dead. The phone went dead just after the 17 shooting. 18 Because we couldn't get through -- or they 19 had it scrambled. And the ambulances that were close by, 20 left. And if the cops knew there was shooting, right, 21 why didn't they tell the people in the ambulance to hold 22 on a minute. Somebody might have got killed. 23 You know what those ambulances were used 24 for? Command posts for the OPP. We knew that. Because 25 when they left behind that OP -- I mean the St. John
2891 Ambulance trailer all it was is, you know, just a command 2 post. There was cops in those ambulances. 3 Like today, at this date, there's 4 ambulances parked around the camp area now. And they sit 5 there all -- all day 'til one (1) of us approaches them, 6 then the ambulance takes off. If they're there to serve 7 -- save lives, I don't believe it. 8 No ambulance would respond. Like they 9 were told not to. That's the only 10 11 (VIDEO TRANSCRIPTION CONCLUDED) 12 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, that 14 concludes the excerpt of the interview that we were able 15 to retrieve from the Goldi's. I note that we have also a 16 nine (9) page transcription and it was done by our 17 reporter here and I wonder if we could make the 18 transcription the next exhibit. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What number 20 is that? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-323, Your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-323: Robert Isaac Interview with 24 Mr. and Mrs. Goldi video 25 transcript
2901 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That concludes the 2 evidence for today, Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll 4 adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. 5 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 6 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, April the 6th at 7 9:00 a.m. 8 9 --- Upon adjourning at 4:31 p.m. 10 11 12 13 Certified Correct 14 15 16 17 _____________________ 18 Dustin Warnock 19 20 21 22 23 24 25