11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 4th, 2006 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) (np) 5 Katherine Hensel ) (np) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) 23 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) 18 Robyn Trask ) (np) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)
61 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 5 6 MARK KEITH DEW, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 11 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 191 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 199 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 222 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 275 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 312 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 336 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 355 15 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 383 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 386 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1273 Document Number 2000740. Camper's 4 notes (handwritten), P/C Ternovan 5 and P/C Blanchard and D/C Dew and 6 P/C Gast, August 23, 1995. 14 7 P-1274 Document Number 2000741. Handwritten 8 camper's notes, August 25, 1995. 18 9 P-1275 Document Number 1009042. OPP Release to 10 the Public re. Checkpoints. (undated) 59 11 P-1276 Transcript of Region 3, Bob Cousineau, 12 Chatham Communications Centre, September 13 06, 1995. 23:28 hrs. Chatham 14 Communications Centre, Logger tape 15 number 0146, Track 03, Disc 03 of 20. 120 16 P-1277 Reserved. 120 17 P-1278 Transcript of Region 7, Sgt. Peer, 18 Strathroy Hospital, Mark Dew, September 19 06, 1995. 23:33 hrs. London 20 Communications Centre, Logger tape 21 number 086, Track 18, Disc 18 of 20. 122 22 23 24 25
91 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1279 Transcript of Region 4, Mark Dew, London 4 Communications Centre, September 06, 5 1995. 23:51 hrs. London Communications 6 Centre, Logger tape number 0146, Track 3, 7 Disc 3 of 20. 127 8 P-1280 Transcript of Region 6, Sgt Peer, 9 Strathroy Hospital, Mark Dew, September 10 06, 1995. 23:52 hrs, London Communications 11 Centre, Logger tape number 086, Track 2, 12 Disc 2 of 20. 131 13 P-1281 Transcript of Region 5, Mark Dew, London 14 Communications Centre, September 07, 1995. 15 00:04 hrs, London Communications Centre, 16 Logger tape number 0146, Track 4, Disc 17 4 of 20. 137 18 P-1282 Transcript of Region 10, Mark Dew, Chatham 19 Communications Centre, Strathroy Hospital 20 Switchboard, Emergency Department, 21 September 06, 1995, 00:21 hrs, Chatham 22 Communications Centre, Logger tape number 23 0147, Track 7, Disc 7 of 20. 146 24 25
101 EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1283 Transcript of Region 12, Mark Dew, London 4 Communications Centre, September 07, 1995. 5 01:13 hrs, London Communications Centre, 6 Logger tape number 087 Track 6, Disc 6 7 of 20. 159 8 P-1284 Map of Ipperwash Checkpoints, September 9 6-7, 1995. 206 10 P-1285 Document Number 2003442. Statement of 11 J.M. Dellemonache, OPP Constable, 12 number 7761. 210 13 P-1286 Document Number 2004019. Statement of 14 Rich Grigg, OPP Constable, number 5699. 211 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
111 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. Good morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 11 we begin there's a housekeeping matter. The copy of 12 Exhibit P-1272 that was marked yesterday, was the 13 unredacted copy and I've provided the Registrar with a 14 redacted copy from the database that should be 15 substituted for the copy we marked yesterday as P-1272. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 18 19 MARK KEITH DEW, Resumed 20 21 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Good morning, Mr. Dew -- 23 A: Good morning. 24 Q: -- Constable Dew. I would like to 25 before we begin, just move back for a moment to July 31st
121 and page 7 of your notebook. And at 23:45 there's a note 2 about: 3 "Inspector Carson, Detective Sergeant 4 Wright, and some ERT members arrive. 5 Brief all as to what had gone on." 6 And do you recall what you discussed with 7 Inspector Carson, Detective Sergeant Wright, and the ERT 8 members? 9 A: I don't recall actually doing it but 10 -- but what had gone on was the -- the incident with the 11 -- the boater and the older couple. 12 Q: And the -- 13 A: So I suspect that's what I told them. 14 Q: -- and the older couple? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Now, we were moving on to August the 17 23rd when we stopped yesterday afternoon. And in your 18 notebook and in the exhibit copy of P-1272 Tab 4, it's at 19 page 12? 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: And I understand that you returned to 22 the Provincial Park as an undercover -- as a camper for 23 the period August 23rd to August 27th; is that correct? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: The first -- the first attendance was
131 for the period July 31st to August the 4th and then the 2 second August 23rd to August 27th? 3 A: Right. That's correct. 4 Q: And from a review of your notes on 5 August 23rd, 1995, it appears you were assigned with P/C 6 Brian Gast? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And that on August 23rd there were no 9 incidents -- 10 A: I don't believe so, no. 11 Q: -- that you observed? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And at Tab 5 of the -- excuse me, at 14 Tab 8 of the book, black book in front of you, there 15 appear to be -- it's Inquiry Document 200740 -- 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Two thousand (2000). 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 2000, excuse me, 18 740, camper notes for August 23rd, 1995, August 24th, 19 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And are those camper notes from 23 August 23rd and August 24th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the first page appears to be
141 camper notes made by Blanchard and Ternovan? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And then the notes made by yourself 4 and Mr. Gast start on page 3? 5 A: Yeah, that's the -- the handwriting 6 of Brian Gast. 7 Q: The handwriting of Brian Gast? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And I would ask that these 2000740 be 10 marked the next exhibit? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-1273, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1273: Document Number 2000740. 14 Camper's notes (handwritten), 15 P/C Ternovan and P/C 16 Blanchard and D/C Dew and P/C 17 Gast, August 23, 1995. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And on the public copy we need to 21 redact the licence plate numbers that appear throughout 22 these notes. 23 And if I could take you to August -- the 24 Brian Gast notes on August 23rd and August 24th it 25 appears that the -- part of the task of the people who
151 were camping was to simply to keep track of the cars that 2 were going in and out of the Army Camp? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And going in and out of the Army Camp 5 off Matheson Drive onto the beach? 6 A: As best we could, yes. 7 Q: And the -- on August the 24th were 8 there any incidents of note on August the 24th? 9 And in your notes, Exhibit P-1272, it 10 starts at page 13th, August the 24th. 11 A: August 24th I have a note that I had 12 a conversation with some campers who had heard that there 13 were coolers stolen in the Park and lawn chairs and 14 bicycles as well as dog shot the night before. 15 Q: And that was simply -- someone 16 reported that to you as having -- they having heard it 17 from somebody else. 18 A: That's the way I understood it, yes. 19 Q: And you hadn't received any other 20 information about that directly from the individuals who 21 allegedly lost their coolers or their dog? 22 A: No. And I made an inquiry with a 23 number of the MNR staff there and they had no idea what 24 that was about either. 25 Q: And they hadn't heard that either?
161 A: No. 2 Q: And that was simply a rumour that 3 someone had passed onto you? 4 A: Quite likely. 5 Q: And the purpose of the -- were you 6 told what the purpose of you and the other campers 7 collecting the license plate numbers of the cars, what 8 the purpose of that was? 9 A: I don't recall that directly, no. 10 No, I don't. 11 Q: Did you know or have an understanding 12 or a belief as to what was going to be done with the 13 license plate numbers? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Were they going to use them to 16 identify the drivers; was that your understanding? 17 A: It's possible but as I said, I -- I 18 don't know what they were going to do with it. It's just 19 -- my task was to -- to write them down and hand them in. 20 Q: So your job was to write down the 21 license plate numbers, hand them in and that's what you 22 did? 23 A: That's -- that's right. 24 Q: Thanks. Then at page 14 there's a 25 note at the bottom of -- just before 22:15. It starts,
171 "P/C Gast"; do you see that? 2 A: Page 14. 3 Q: It's one -- 4 A: Yes. Yeah. Its -- 5 "P/C Gast did not hear any gunshots 6 last night." 7 Q: And then the next entry? 8 A: Is: 9 "I asked MNR officer who -- who advised 10 he had not heard of any such activity." 11 And that's in reference to that 12 information about the -- the dog and the supposed stolen 13 lawn chairs and coolers. 14 Q: And so that's -- P/C Gast hadn't 15 heard any shooting during the last night and then that's 16 a reference to the MNR? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And then the -- the next entry 22:15? 19 A: "No traffic on Matheson Drive. No 20 fire visible down the beach and the 21 campground seems to be beginning to 22 fill up." 23 Q: And that's the campground, the 24 Provincial campground. 25 A: That's right.
181 Q: And then on August the 25th, you were 2 again a camper? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were there any incidents of note 5 on August the 25th? 6 And that's pages 15 and 16 of Inquiry 7 Document 2003453, P-1272. 8 A: No. 9 Q: And the camper's notes for August the 10 25th and August the 26th and August 27th appear at Tab 9 11 of that black book in front of you, Inquiry Document 12 2000741. 13 And do you recognize the handwriting as 14 that of Brian Gast? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And I would ask that this -- these be 17 marked the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1274, Your Honour. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1274: Document Number 2000741. 21 Handwritten camper's notes, 22 August 25, 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And again, it appears that on the
191 23rd and the 25th and 26th and 27th, principally 2 recording license numbers? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And on August the 26th, and it's page 5 17 of your notebook, is there any significant incidents - 6 - any incidents of note on August the 26th? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And on August the 27th, Sunday, 9 August 27th? 10 A: No, that was our last day there; we - 11 - we packed up and left. 12 Q: And there were no incidents before 13 you left? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And what time did you leave? 16 A: I have a note here: 17 "At twelve o'clock I met with Sergeant 18 Reid and Detective Constable Bob Martin 19 and Terry Streefkirk and Brian Gast for 20 a debriefing." 21 Q: Okay. And then did you make any 22 observations as to the atmosphere in the Park on the 23 second period of time, August the 23rd to August the 24 27th, when you were there? 25 A: No. I think it's fair to say that
201 the first camping session, for lack of a better term, 2 everything was new to us and -- and therefore, everything 3 may be more of note than the second time we came to 4 realize that certain things had become kind of routine 5 and maybe not as important to us as they were the first 6 time around. 7 Q: The first time around. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And the -- during the second time 10 around you identified, if one looks at the -- P-1273 and 11 P-1274, a number of vehicles from Michigan on the Army -- 12 going onto the Army Camp; is that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what sig -- significance if any 15 did that have for you? 16 A: None really. 17 Q: And when you were there the second 18 time were there incidents of jacklighting and night -- 19 lighting at night? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And jacklighting's -- how would you 22 describe jacklighting? 23 A: It was the shining of a -- of a high- 24 powered light, normally from Matheson Drive into the 25 Provincial Park.
211 Q: And the -- how often did that happen? 2 A: I wouldn't say daily but I would say 3 routinely; routinely enough that it was as I say not -- 4 not out of the ordinary. 5 Q: And then on August the 28th did you - 6 - there's a note in your book Monday -- Monday, August 7 28th page 18: 8 "8:25, set up motorhome on site." 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And was that a motorhome that was 11 moved onto the Provincial Park? 12 A: That was right. The trailer that had 13 been in use had to be returned to its owner and I was 14 able to get us a motorhome. 15 Q: And that's 10:25? 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I'm going to put up on the screen a 21 copy of the map of the Provincial Park and -- entitled, 22 Welcome to Ipperwash, and there's -- you'll have a laser 23 pen on the desk there. 24 Could you point out where you were camping 25 during the period of time you camped, August 23rd to
221 27th, if you can remember. 2 Was it in the main campground area on the 3 north -- 4 A: Yeah. It was -- 5 Q: -- which would be north of the top -- 6 A: -- somewhere -- 7 Q: -- northeast corner? 8 A: I believe it was somewhere around 9 here. I -- I couldn't say for certain. 10 Q: And you're pointing out the quadrant 11 that's in the northeast corner of the campground -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- on the top of this map? 14 A: I don't know what degree of certainty 15 I can tell you that with but it was certainly in that 16 part of the Park. 17 Q: In that part of the Park? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And the -- when you set up the -- the 20 motorhome, where was that? 21 A: Well -- 22 Q: In the same area? 23 A: Well, that's the same area. The -- 24 the first time that we were there, we camped closer to 25 this area over here.
231 Q: And you're pointing to an area on the 2 left-hand side of the campground area, over towards the 3 day use area? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And it's -- for the purpose of the 6 record, it's north of the road running east and west 7 across the bridge in the -- in the Provincial Park that 8 runs from Matheson Drive over towards the camp store. 9 A: That's correct. That's the way I 10 remember it, yeah. 11 Q: And during this period of time, did 12 you come to any conclusions as to whether or not you had 13 been recognized by the occupiers of the Army Camp or 14 other -- other campers as police officers? 15 A: I can say for certain that people in 16 the Provincial Park, some knew who we were because, in 17 fact, with that motorhome that I set up, it turns out 18 that a camper there knew the fellow who owned it, 19 recognized the camper immediately and came right over. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: But other than that, to know for sure 22 that people knew who we were, no, I don't think so. They 23 may have, but not to my knowledge. 24 Q: Okay. And then you returned to the 25 camper on August the 31st?
241 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And can you -- were there any 3 incidents of note on August the 31st? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And that's page 19 of your notebook. 8 And the camper notes appear to be -- it's at Tab 11, 9 Inquiry Document 7000243. These camper notes that are 10 here are not your camper notes, but those of Streefkirk 11 and Burrows. 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And there are, simply again -- 14 appears to be identification of automobiles? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when you went on duty in the 17 Camp, it was, approximately, in the afternoon? 18 A: Yes. Sometime after two o'clock -- 19 Q: And the note indicates... 20 A: 14:10 we were getting groceries in 21 Forest. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: So we would have gone to the campsite 24 after getting the groceries. 25 Q: After getting groceries. And were
251 there any incidents of note on August the 31st? 2 A: The only thing that I -- that I see 3 from my notes here is that there were -- there was a 4 trailer full of wooden pallets taken down the beach to 5 the campsite, further east on -- on the Army Base beach, 6 and that was about it. 7 Q: And I note there's a reference after 8 14:10, "Groceries in Forest": 9 "At campsite, met with P/C Ken Deane, 10 TRU." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what was that about? 13 A: I'm not sure that it was about 14 anything. It wasn't a scheduled meeting. Ken just 15 happened -- he just happened by and so we had 16 conversation and he left. 17 Q: And was he in uniform of out of 18 uniform, do you recall? 19 A: He was in civilian attire. 20 Q: And do you recall anything beyond 21 that about the -- the visit of Ken Deane? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Then on September 1st, page 20 of 24 Exhibit P-1272. 25
261 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Nothing of note that day. 4 Q: And on September the 2nd? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Tell us what happened on September 7 the 2nd that you observed. 8 A: It was a Saturday, and there was an 9 incident with -- with Dudley George and Constables Dougan 10 and Gransden that I observed. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And I'm -- I can't -- I can't really 13 recall what the circumstances were that brought them 14 together but at any rate, it appeared to me as though 15 their interaction was becoming heated. And there were 16 more occupiers or Natives arriving at the scene and the 17 two (2) officers were becoming outnumbered quickly and I 18 became concerned. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And I went back to the trailer to try 21 to use the cell phone to call the comm centre to get some 22 assistance for them. 23 Q: And the -- after when you went back 24 to get your cell phone to get some assistance, was there 25 only Dudley George down on the beach?
271 A: No. As I said there was -- there 2 were other Natives coming to the scene or at the scene 3 already and they were in my estimation, outnumbered and 4 it was -- I think it was -- it could be termed as less 5 than friendly exchange at that time. 6 Q: And how far away from this exchange 7 were you? 8 A: Boy. Close enough that I could hear 9 that there was a conversation between the two (2) but I 10 couldn't make out words exactly. At least I don't recall 11 the words. 12 Q: And -- I've put up on the screen a 13 copy of -- it's P-135 and it's photograph 7 that I'm 14 going to put up. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And if we could give the Witness the 19 hard copy of Exhibit P-135. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And it's page 6 of those documents 24 that... 25 A: Yes.
281 Q: And do you recognize that photograph? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And is that a photograph showing what 4 you observed on the -- on September the 2nd? 5 A: I have no -- no memory of this. 6 Like, no of memory of pictures if you will in my mind of 7 -- of that situation but -- and to be honest with you it 8 doesn't ring any bells with me. It may well have been 9 that situation. I -- I can't say for sure. 10 Q: So that from -- you don't have any 11 memory of any of that incident? 12 Do you have any -- do you recognize the 13 car that's shown in this picture? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And why do you recognize that car? 16 A: I saw a lot of it while I was there. 17 Q: And that car has written on it -- 18 does it have writing on it -- that car? 19 A: Yes, it does. 20 Q: And what was the writing, do you -- 21 A: It said, "OPP Who". 22 Q: And can you describe the car -- you 23 can't see at -- in this photograph, photograph 7, but 24 were there any distinguishing features of the car? 25 A: It was a large car, it was two-toned
291 and it had big wings affixed to the rear fenders. 2 Q: Big wings or -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And you say that you saw that car a 5 lot; what do you mean by that? 6 A: Well I don't know that I can say that 7 I saw it daily but I saw it routinely. 8 Q: And -- down on the Army Camp beach? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And where else? 11 A: I saw it certainly on -- on Matheson 12 Drive and from time to time when we'd be driving from the 13 campsite to Forest for groceries or the Pinery for -- for 14 firewood, we would see it occasionally on that -- I'm not 15 sure of the name of the road inside the -- the Army Camp. 16 Q: The road that's on the inside of the 17 Army Camp that runs parallel to Army Camp Road? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And did you observe from time to time 20 who the drive of the vehicle was? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And who was that? 23 A: Sometimes Dudley George. 24 Q: And the -- there's a note at -- in 25 your notes at page 20. Could you just read your note at
301 08:00. 2 A: "On-duty. Incident in a.m. with 3 Dudley George and police P/C's Dougan 4 and Gransden. Officers were checking 5 our Dudley's vehicle which was stuck at 6 the end of Matheson Drive. Dudley told 7 them to move their car and get it off 8 their land. More cars began to arrive 9 at the scene. 10 Dudley was becoming verbally abusive. 11 Officers were fast becoming 12 outnumbered. I went to the trailer to 13 the cell to call for assistance. In 14 the meantime Gast advised me that the 15 officers had gotten in their cruiser 16 and left or drove away." 17 Q: Then could you keep going? 18 A: At one (1) point I must have come 19 close enough to Mark Gransden to mention to him that I 20 had asked the Comm Centre to check -- 21 Q: Could you just read the note? 22 A: Yeah. 23 "I ask -- I advised Gransden in a 24 casual manner that I had asked Comm 25 Centre to check for north end car and
311 have it slide this way." 2 Q: And that's referring to a police 3 cruiser? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you have in your note... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: The -- you have in your notes on page 10 20: 11 "Dudley told them to move their car and 12 get off their land." 13 Now -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- did you hear that or did P/C 16 Gransden and Dougan tell you that? 17 A: I hadn't had conversation with 18 Gransden at that point so I'd have to assume that I heard 19 that but I don't recall that precisely. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: I don't recall that precisely when I 22 heard that but... 23 Q: And then in your notes the next 24 reference on page 21 is -- could you just read on, 25 "Briefed Sergeant Korosec"?
321 A: "Briefed Sergeant Korosec about 2 Brian's earlier conversation with 3 Dudley. Dudley told --" 4 Q: Brian is...? 5 A: Brian Gast. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: "Dudley told Brian they had people 8 here from Minnesota, Michigan, Georgia, 9 Saugeen Reserve to assist them with the 10 impending occupation of Ipperwash 11 Provincial Park. Brian made notes in 12 the log and collected plate numbers 13 during the afternoon." 14 Q: And the -- Brian Gast had a 15 discussion with Dudley George? 16 A: So he told me, yes. 17 Q: And did he -- can you tell us what if 18 anything you remember as to how this -- Brian Gast 19 indicated how this conversation came about? 20 Had he got to know Dudley George? 21 A: He had. At some point and I can't 22 say when but at some point Brian had -- had walked over 23 onto Matheson Drive or the Army -- Army Camp beach 24 somewhere in that area and had engaged Dudley in 25 conversation.
331 And they had, in fact, at some point and I 2 can't say if it's happened here already or not but at 3 some point they -- they struck up some sort of a 4 friendship where they -- they would say "hi" to each 5 other when they saw each other down by the beach. 6 Q: Yes. And Brian Gast reported the 7 conversation that you've just told us about in your 8 notes? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that Dudley George had told them 11 that the -- told Brian Gast the Park was to be occupied? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And do you recall Brian Gast telling 14 you why if Mr. George told -- told him why the Park was 15 going to be occupied? 16 A: No, I don't recall that. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And do you recall telling the -- Stan 21 Korosec that you had been told that the occupiers of the 22 Army Camp were going to take the Park as soon as the 23 campers leave? 24 A: No, I don't recall that. 25 Q: And do you recall telling him that
341 the occupiers have cell keys for the Military Base and 2 planned to lock up people trespassing on Army Camp? 3 A: No, I don't recall saying that. 4 Q: And do you recall telling Sergeant 5 Korosec on September the 2nd that the occupiers of the 6 Army Camp were harassing people on the beach, on the Park 7 side of the beach? 8 A: No, I don't recall saying that, 9 either. 10 Q: And did you observe that? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Largely in the form of verbal 14 confrontation. It was -- it was another one of those 15 routine things was -- and the common language was, Get 16 the fuck off our land. 17 Q: So that some -- some of the occupiers 18 from the Army Camp would tell me people on the beach and 19 from the Provincial Park to get off their land? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And how often did this happen during 22 the periods of time you were an undercover -- you were a 23 camper? 24 A: Well, once again, I would say not 25 necessarily daily, but certainly routinely.
351 Q: And the -- on September 2nd, was 2 there -- at 16:40, there's a note. Could you just read 3 that note for us, at the bottom of page 21. 4 A: "To Forest for groceries. Stopped at 5 Forest Detachment and spoke with Staff 6 Sergeant Charlie Bouwman, Detective 7 Constable Speck. Back in Park 8 approximately 18:00 hours. Fairly 9 quiet, a few cars up and down Matheson 10 Drive and down to the beach. All 11 quiet, no vehicles for hours." 12 That's the notation at midnight. 13 Q: And what -- do you recall the 14 conversation that you had with Staff Sergeant Charlie 15 Bouwman and Constable Speck? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And on August the 3rd, you were still 18 in the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 21 mean September. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: I mean September 3rd. 25 A: September 3rd, yes.
361 Q: September 3rd. And can you tell us 2 what you observed on September the 3rd? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: At eight o'clock there's a note that: 7 "On-duty. Dudley's vehicle, Merc with 8 white wings down to beach site in front 9 of CFB. Dudley pissed again. Kicks 10 kids off of beach. He's still --" 11 Q: And which beach are you talking 12 about? 13 A: That'd be the beach in front of the 14 Army Camp. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: "He still thinks Brian is his buddy. 17 Brian assured him he would keep people 18 off the end of Matheson Drive. Logged 19 new plates, et cetera. Brian entered 20 them on log. Quiet rest of the 21 afternoon. To Forest Detachment, drop 22 off Seadoo, parking garage, life 23 jackets and gas cans there as well and 24 then back to the Park." 25 Q: And what would -- did you -- what was
371 the Seadoo used for? 2 A: I guess it -- I guess the main 3 function of the Seadoo was to help us blend in with the 4 crowd there. The other thing that it offered us the 5 opportunity to do was, from time to time, check on that 6 campsite that was further down the beach on the Army Base 7 side. 8 Q: The campsite that -- used by the 9 occupiers of the -- 10 A: Yes, yeah. 11 Q: And Dudley's vehicle, Merc with white 12 wings, was that the vehicle we -- we saw in photograph 7 13 at -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- P-135? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you recall a vehicle being 18 called the batmobile? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Then did anything else of note happen 21 on September the 3rd? 22 A: "At 22:00 hours that night, I learned 23 that someone had been beaten up on army 24 beach and their dog killed. 25 I spoke to a camper who was camped
381 beside us and took a statement from him to 2 that effect." 3 Q: So you were told this camper came and 4 told you that he had observed -- what -- did he observe 5 this or he had been told this? 6 A: It says that: 7 "Bob saw the dog beaten to death by 8 four (4) Natives on the beach at the 9 end of Matheson Drive and that he then 10 spoke to a male, white camper, who's 11 first name was Curtis who had a swollen 12 and bloody nose and a cut over his left 13 eye -- under his left eye. 14 And Curtis kept saying, I went on the 15 wrong side, it's my fault." 16 Q: And then the next entry? 17 A: It's at quarter after 1:00 in the 18 morning. 19 "All Natives left the beach. Watched 20 beach area until 2:45 and then off- 21 duty." 22 Q: And on September the 4th you were 23 still down at the beach -- in the Park I mean? 24 A: Yeah. Yes. I should say that that 25 night, on the 3rd I believe, it was the night there was a
391 large bonfire on the beach at the end of Matheson Drive 2 with those pallets that I had mentioned earlier. At 3 least I assumed those pallets. 4 And we were concerned for the one (1) 5 person in particular who climbed on top of the pallets 6 while they were ablaze and we were afraid that he was 7 going to be hurt. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Just one of the reasons that we sat 10 and watched. This -- that seemed to upset people in the 11 Park, the campers. 12 Q: Which? The -- 13 A: The -- the bonfire and the loud 14 music. 15 Q: And how far from the Provincial Park 16 down east of Matheson Drive was the campsite? 17 A: How far down? Just a guess, half a 18 mile. I -- I'm not sure. 19 Q: But it was a substantial way down the 20 beach? 21 A: Yeah. But that bonfire was at -- was 22 at the end of Matheson Drive and not at that campsite. 23 Q: Oh, excuse me, I misunderstood. So 24 there's -- the bonfire that you're speaking of was on the 25 Army Camp side at the end, close to Matheson Drive?
401 A: I believe so, yeah. 2 Q: And then what did you do on the 3 morning of September the 4th? 4 A: In the morning at eight o'clock I was 5 on- duty and I observed two (2) people walking down the 6 beach in front of the CFB and that two (2) Native 7 vehicles went down and did donuts around them scaring 8 them. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And they were making -- those people 11 were making their way east -- easterly towards Port 12 Franks. I was concerned for their safety and at that 13 time I called the Comm Centre and advised. They called 14 Grand Bend Detachment, then called Detective Constable 15 Speck and advised him. 16 "Patrolled Park looking for Curtis, 17 last night's assault, with negative 18 results." 19 Q: So you never did find Curtis? 20 A: No, I did not. 21 Q: And so you were never able to verify 22 whether or not the facts that had been -- the information 23 provided to you by the other camper? 24 A: No, I never was. 25 Q: And did you stop being a camper on
411 September the 4th? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And then what did you do after -- 4 when did you pack up and stopped being a camper? 5 A: Well, there was an incident on the 6 beach in the late afternoon and once that had simmered, 7 Gast and I assisted people with loading their catamaran 8 up and -- and I walked around the campground asking 9 people to pack up and get out. 10 The -- the Park was going to close that 11 day at any rate and we just wanted people to get moving. 12 Q: People -- campers to leave? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And had you been instructed by anyone 15 to do that? 16 A: Not that I recall directly, but I may 17 have by Detective Sergeant Richardson. 18 Q: And were you reporting to Detective 19 Sergeant Richardson? 20 A: I hadn't been directly that -- until 21 that day he showed up at our campsite in the afternoon 22 that day. 23 Q: And did he tell you why he showed up 24 at your campsite? 25 A: No.
421 Q: And did he give you any instructions 2 other than -- do you recall him giving you any 3 instructions? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And at the time that you were camping 6 on the -- at the Provincial Park, the three (3) sessions 7 you were camping, did you observe any firearms? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And -- either on the Provincial Park 10 or on the Army Camp? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And the couple that you spoke of on 13 the morning of September 4th walking on the beach and the 14 -- the car's being driven around them, did -- did that 15 couple return to Matheson Drive or continue walking or do 16 you know? 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: But you were -- you called Grand Bend 19 because you thought they were going to the Port Franks -- 20 A: I -- I called the Comm Centre to have 21 someone check it -- check it out, yes. 22 Q: Then what happened at four o'clock on 23 the afternoon of September 4th? Do you have a note? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 "P/C Jacklin [Wayde Jacklin] pulls
431 cruiser down to bottom of Matheson 2 Drive." 3 Q: Now, do you have any independent 4 recollection of this incident? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Can you tell us what you recall 7 before you look at your notes? 8 A: Sure. As I said he pulled his 9 cruiser down to the bottom of Matheson Drive and -- and 10 parked. I believe he had turned his cruiser around so 11 that the -- the rear of his vehicle was facing the water. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: And shortly thereafter a Trans Am, 14 blue Trans Am, came down to the beach and the passenger 15 opened the front -- opened the -- the door, the passenger 16 door of the car, and hit the front bumper of the cruiser. 17 And as I recall at that time Jacklin is 18 out of his car and makes a move towards that person and I 19 see him put his -- his right hand I believe on that 20 person's arm. And -- and in my mind he was arresting him 21 for mischief but I couldn't hear that. I don't know what 22 words were being said but that's what I see. 23 And then rather quickly more cars and more 24 occupiers arrive as do more ERT members arrive. I don't 25 know who called them or where they came from but all of a
441 sudden there just a large number of -- of people and 2 there was a bit of a -- a stand-off I guess for -- for 3 lack of a better term. 4 And at one (1) point Stan Korosec arrives, 5 who's the Sergeant of the ERT team, and he took up a 6 position maybe a little bit further on the beach and at 7 one point then ended up in conversation with Roderick 8 George. 9 Q: And did -- how do you know it was 10 Roderick George? 11 A: I knew who he was, not by Roderick 12 George. At that time I knew him as Judas. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: And -- 15 Q: How did you know that? 16 A: Just -- he had been pointed out to me 17 by -- probably by Chris Martin, because as I said I knew 18 none of these -- these folks but he did. 19 After some conversation we were told to 20 stand-down and that was the end of it and that's when we 21 went about the business of asking the campers to leave 22 the Park. 23 Q: And do you recall where you, how far 24 away from the -- the two (2) cars when the cruiser and 25 the blue Trans Am, and you were observing this?
451 A: I was on the beach and I was near the 2 -- near the edge of the Park where those cement blocks 3 were that -- I guess defined the edge of the Park from 4 Matheson Drive. 5 Q: And... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I'm going to show you photograph 10 number 5 of Exhibit P-135. 11 And the -- you will see there are the 12 cement blocks in the foreground and stakes and then a -- 13 an open area and then it looks like large rocks in the 14 background and a car, a two-tone car in the background. 15 And do you recognize that scene? 16 A: I recognize that area and I would 17 have been this side of the first row of blocks. 18 Q: The first row of blocks that you 19 observe in the picture are the blocks that divide the 20 Provincial Park from Matheson Drive? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that's the row of rocks in the 23 foreground and the row of blocks in the background; what 24 did they do? 25 A: Well, I guess that they mark the
461 other side of Matheson Drive from the beach in front of 2 the -- the Base. 3 Q: And so they -- to your understanding 4 they divide Matheson Drive from the beach in front of the 5 -- in front of the Army Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the car that's in the background 8 is the car that you described earlier as the car with the 9 wings? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's a sign on the beach side 12 of the cement blocks that appears to say: 13 "No travel beyond this point"? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And was that sign up when you were 16 there in the -- in August of 1995? 17 A: I don't recall seeing it, but it may 18 have been there. I just don't remember it. 19 Q: And so during the incident with 20 Constable Jacklin's cruiser and the blue Camaro or Trans 21 Am, the -- you were standing along the blocks that we see 22 in the picture number 5 on the Provincial Park side. 23 A: Yes, and -- but closer to the water's 24 edge. 25 Q: Closer to the water's edge?
471 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And the incident took place closer to 3 the water's edge? 4 A: Well, I wouldn't say -- yes, sorry, 5 that's where the cruiser was, yeah. 6 Q: And I'm showing you again picture 7 7 and -- which shows again the cement blocks. This is the 8 photograph that has what we've been identified -- been 9 identified by P/C Gransden as himself and Dougan and Mr. 10 Dudley George and another person by the car driven by 11 Dudley George. 12 And using this picture as a reference, can 13 you tell us where you recall Wayde Jacklin's car was and 14 the cruiser? 15 A: Certainly in the general vicinity, 16 but in my mind, I think that his cruiser was parked 17 closer to the water. 18 Q: Closer to the water than the car in 19 this scene? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the -- you've got a note -- could 22 you read on page 25, the -- if you -- at the bottom of 23 page 24, could you just read your notes, starting at 24 16:00. 25 A: Sure.
481 "P/C Jacklin pulls cruiser down to 2 bottom of Matheson Drive, gets out of 3 cruiser. Couple of moments later a 4 blue Trans Am, Judas George driving, 5 male passenger. Opens passenger door 6 and strikes left front corner of 7 cruiser's bumper. 8 P/C Jacklin grabbed the guy. A 9 confrontation begins. 10 Other ERT members arrive. P/C Gast 11 Detective Sergeant Richardson and I 12 already on beach, ready to back up 13 officers if required. 14 Sergeant Korosec arrives and negotiates 15 with Judas George then their self- 16 appointed leader. 17 Judas claimed that Matheson Drive was 18 Indian land, that Ipperwash was Indian 19 land; that the police had no business 20 on the roadway and that he was going to 21 confiscate the cruisers and have the 22 police charged with trespassing. 23 The passenger of the vehicle, the Trans 24 Am, six (6) foot one (1), a hundred and 25 seventy (170) pounds, beard, no front
491 teeth. Orange t-shirt, Stuart Bradley 2 George, also known as Worm. 3 Things seemed to calm down then. ERT 4 dispersed, Gast, Richardson and I 5 returned to beach on park side of 6 Matheson Drive. 7 I then went to remaining campers and 8 urged them to leave. 9 Then went to the beach and urged 10 remaining sunbathers to leave. 11 Gast and I assisted people with loading 12 their catamaran. At this point, Judas 13 came over to the park side of the 14 beach, a strong odour of alcohol on his 15 breath. 16 He began telling the people who owned 17 the catamaran and the couple of 18 sunbathers about the unexploded 19 munitions that he claimed were in 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 21 One lady asked him some very pointy 22 questions. He replied with gibberish 23 which very seldom answered her 24 questions. When the last of the 25 campers were out of the Park, Gast and
501 I left the Park." 2 Q: And then, dropped motorhome off at -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 "Dropped motorhome off at Forest 5 Detachment. Then to Grand Bend to meet 6 with Sergeant Reid re. admin. [and at] 7 21:30, back at Forest Detachment." 8 Q: Okay. Would you just stop there for 9 a moment. 10 And the -- your note at the top of the 11 page 4, indicates that the passenger door opened, of the 12 car, opened and struck the left-hand corner of the 13 cruiser's bumper? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And had the car turned around so that 16 it was facing the same direction as the cruiser? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And was the cruiser at this point 19 pointed towards the lake? 20 A: No. I believe the back end of the 21 cruiser was towards the lake, the front end facing south 22 to -- he could -- if he was to engage into drive, he 23 would drive south on Matheson Drive. 24 Q: And so the -- the car pulled up on 25 the Park side of the cruiser when the door opened?
511 A: No. The Park -- the car pulled up 2 with its right side to the front of the cruiser. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: So when the passenger door was opened 5 it hit the front corner of the police car's bumper. 6 Q: And were you in the -- when the -- 7 were you in the Park on September the 4th when the 8 occupiers entered the Park? 9 A: When I left the Park there were some 10 Natives on the Park side of the beach just up off the 11 beach onto the -- onto the grassy area where the 12 campsites would begin -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- there's a park bench. And when I 15 left my last recollection is seeing ERT members and some 16 Natives both sitting and standing around that bench 17 talking. 18 Q: So that would be in the northwest -- 19 northeast corner of the Park just at the top of the 20 bank -- 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: -- from the beach? And so can you 23 tell us at approximately what time you left the Park? 24 A: I believe it was around 18:00 but I 25 don't see a note to that affect.
521 Q: But between the time you left and at 2 -- at 9:30, you had gone to take the motorhome back to 3 Forest, you'd gone to Grand Ben and then gone back to 4 Forest? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So that would take a substantial 7 period of time? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And then at 9:30 you're back at the 10 Forest Detachment? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then what happened? 13 A: I spoke with Acting Detective Staff 14 Sergeant Wright who advised me to report back to Forest 15 Detachment at 24:00 hours to be working nights at Forest 16 Detachment in the absence of Inspector Carson and Acting 17 Detective Sergeant Wright. 18 Q: And did he tell you why? 19 A: I believe the -- the word he used was 20 I was going to be the night-time crime guy. 21 Q: The night time...? 22 A: Crime guy. 23 Q: Crime guy. And by this time were you 24 aware of what was happening, if anything, at the Park? 25 A: No. No.
531 Q: Did you ask why he wanted you to work 2 the night shift? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 Q: And you were not in the Park when 5 there was the incident with -- that we've heard about 6 with Judas George breaking the cruiser window? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And prior to September the 4th or on 9 September the 4th, did you -- have you heard about the 10 name Project Maple? 11 A: Not that I recall. I may have, but I 12 don't recall that. 13 Q: Did you participate in planning for 14 Project Maple? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you receive a copy of Project 17 Maple which has been marked as Exhibit P-424? 18 A: No, not that I recall. 19 Q: You're not -- there's no indication 20 that you did -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: -- but do you recall did anyone 23 reviewed Project Maple with you? 24 A: I'm not even sure to be honest with 25 you, what exactly it is that Project Maple refers to.
541 Q: Okay. And were you told on September 2 4th or 5th what the OPP's plan was to deal with an 3 occupation of the Park? 4 A: The only thing that I could -- that I 5 could say about that is I can recall that there was a -- 6 a banner put up in the garage at Forest Detachment that 7 said words to the effect of, "To negotiate a peaceful 8 resolution" or words to the effect. 9 But that's all I can recall to that end. 10 Q: Did it read, "Objective to contain 11 and negotiate a peaceful resolution"? 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: That... 14 A: That sounds correct. 15 Q: And in your notes there's a 16 reference; it's to incident number, at 21:30 page 27 17 Exhibit P-1272 Inquiry Document 2003453, Incident 13055- 18 4? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Do you know what that refers to? 21 A: Not now I don't, no. It -- it may 22 have been the OMPPAC occurrence for the incident as a 23 whole. They had to have some kind of an incident number 24 to -- to tie all the information that was being received 25 together to put it onto the computer system.
551 Q: And the information from the -- the 2 campers or what? 3 A: I don't know, not my responsibility. 4 Q: So does that -- does the -- the fact 5 that there's an incident and an incident number indicate 6 that you did something with this incident? 7 A: No, not necessarily. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And so you worked all night? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it appears to say: 14 "All quiet all night [and then] 08:00 15 off- duty?" 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And so that as crime investigator you 18 did nothing over the night? 19 A: I was the fireman, yeah. I was 20 waiting for something that never came in. 21 Q: And during the period you were a 22 camper at the -- at the Provincial Park in August and 23 early September and late July of 1995, did anyone speak 24 to you or did you hear of anything with respect to the 25 burial ground in the Provincial Park?
561 A: No, not that I recall. 2 Q: And when the occupiers of the Army 3 Camp spoke of the Provincial Park as their land what was 4 your understanding if any as to what they -- they were 5 referring to? 6 A: I assumed -- on my own part I assumed 7 that that parcel of land in their mind was part and 8 parcel of the Army Base which was in fact their land as 9 well; that's what I assumed. 10 Q: That's what you assumed. And did you 11 play any role with respect to the attendance by Vince 12 George and Les Kobayashi at the Park on the evening of 13 September the 4th? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And where were you stationed, do you 16 recall? Were you in the -- in the Detachment or...? 17 A: The first night I was -- I was in the 18 Detachment for certain, and I don't believe the Command 19 Post had arrived just yet. But -- but at any rate I 20 didn't really take up a post at the -- in the Command 21 Post; it was for Command staff. So I was in the 22 Detachment. 23 Q: In the Detachment. So that from your 24 notes all was quiet and you went off-duty in the morning 25 of September the 5th and you -- there's a note at two
571 o'clock on September 5th you reclaimed and returned the 2 motorhome to its owner? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And then at -- there's a note: 5 "8:00 report for duty at Forest 6 Detachment. Briefed by Acting 7 Detective Sergeant Wright as to duties 8 for the evening." 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And do you recall what Detective 11 Sergeant Wright told you were to be your duties for the 12 evening? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And the -- there's a note at 21:00 15 hours and that -- can you read that note to us? 16 A: "Briefing in mobile command post led 17 by Inspector Linton. Composed release 18 to public to be handed at checkpoints 19 to motor and public. Letter approved 20 by Inspector Linton. Typed and copies 21 made. 22 And with the assistance of Rick 23 [there's no name there, but it's Rick 24 Zupanic of London TRU, cut stills from 25 a flyover video of Ipperwash Provincial
581 Park. Prepared two (2) folders showing 2 locations of Natives strong points and 3 access points to the Park from the 4 south and the west and heard the 5 reports of four (4) windshields broken 6 out of four (4) cruisers. 7 Then hear reports of automatic weapons 8 being fired, fifty (50) to one hundred 9 (100) rounds. Sounds of heavy 10 machinery. 11 Dump trucks, back hoe? [with a question 12 mark] Unknown location." 13 Q: And then we'll stop there for a 14 moment. The -- do you recall anything more about the 15 briefing by Inspector Linton and if -- please turn to Tab 16 13. 17 At Tab 13, is a copy of P-426 and there's 18 -- this contains simply extracts and if you would turn, 19 please, to page 44. And there's notes at 21:06 hours. 20 Do you have -- do you recall anything 21 beyond what you've just told us about the briefing? 22 A: No, other than I had been given those 23 two (2) assignments. 24 Q: And the -- did you attend with 25 Sergeant Cousineau, Kent Skinner, Sergeant Reid and Wayde
591 Jacklin. That's the note in the scribe note indicate -- 2 A: That's what it says there. I have no 3 recollection of who was there -- 4 Q: Okay. And the letter that you refer 5 to, 6 does that letter appear at Tab 44 of your book of 7 documents? 8 It's Inquiry Document 1009042. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: It certainly seems to fill the bill 13 for what I was tasked to do, but I don't recall exactly 14 what I wrote. But this -- this may well be it, yes. 15 Q: And there's a note that someone's 16 made that, I think it's Les Kobayashi made this note, 17 this is the release given to the public. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: But this appears to be what you did. 20 A: I believe it is, yeah. 21 Q: I would ask that that be marked the 22 next exhibit. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-1275, Your Honour. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1275: Document Number 1009042. OPP
601 Release to the Public re. 2 Checkpoints. (undated) 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And the other task that you were 6 asked to do by Inspector Linton, actually before we 7 finish with the letter task, I note in Exhibit P-426, 8 there's an entry at page 45: 9 "22:15, off phone. Mark Dew provided 10 letter." 11 It says "be prepared" but, He prepared as 12 directed? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Do you see that? 15 A: Yes, I do. 16 Q: And -- but you did prepare the 17 letter; you gave it to Linton, he approved it? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it was distributed? 20 A: Yes. I assume so, yeah. 21 Q: You simply gave it to him? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you didn't have any -- play any 24 role in distributing it? 25 A: No.
611 Q: And now the other task about 2 vulnerable points. The task where vulnerable points and 3 briefed lender -- letter for hand out. 4 The vulnerable points task, can you tell 5 us -- actually it says here: 6 "Letter approved by Inspector Linton. 7 Typed and copies made." 8 So that in your notes, you refer to the 9 letter having been made -- copies been made, so you -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- arranged for copies? 12 A: I may have, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And then the next note is: 14 "With the assistance of Rick Zupanic of 15 London TRU, cut stills in the flyover 16 video of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 17 Prepared two (2) folders showing 18 locations of..." 19 A: "Native strong points and access 20 points to the Park from the south and 21 the west." 22 Q: And the south would be the border 23 along Matheson that bordered then along Army Camp Road? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And the west would be along Army Camp
621 Road? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And what -- so what did you do about 4 -- what was this task about? 5 A: In -- in my opinion it was a task 6 that I was not qualified to do, and in fact I asked the 7 Inspector about that but he said to go ahead anyway; 8 that's why I enlisted the assistance of a TRU team guy. 9 Q: And why didn't you -- what you do 10 recall him asking you to do? 11 A: Just exactly what my notes there say, 12 to -- to examine the Park and try to identify points of 13 weakness or accessibility. And I'm not trained in 14 tactics and I couldn't understand why he had tasked me 15 with that. 16 However, I got Rick Zupanic to give me a 17 hand with this. He knew how to run the machinery to cut 18 stills from a flyover video that had been made earlier. 19 And I just simply marked gates. And I don't know how to 20 describe the exercise other than in my view, pointless, 21 but I did what I was told to do. 22 Q: So what you identified were gates 23 along the boundary? 24 A: I attempted to, yeah. 25 Q: And then do you know what happened?
631 You -- you printed the stills using this machine that 2 Rick Zupanic knew how to operate -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- and put the stills in the -- in 5 folders. 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Do you know what happened to the 8 folders? 9 A: I -- I believe somewhere in here I 10 have a note of handing -- handing packages over and I 11 believe that's what it's referring to; I handed them over 12 to Wright and Richardson. 13 Q: And we'll come to -- that's at the 14 top of page 30 where it says: 15 "06:10 give P/C McNally to Grand Bend 16 Detachment. Back to Forest at 6:53. 17 Briefed Detective Sergeant Wright and 18 Detective Sergeant Richardson and hand 19 over packages." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you believe the packages were the 22 photos that you had prepared? 23 A: I believe so, yeah. 24 Q: And did you ever see those packages 25 again, those photos again? Did you have anything to do
641 with them again? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And now at six (6) -- in your notes 4 you heard reports of four (4) windshields broken out of 5 four (4) cruisers, and where did you hear that and what 6 were you told, do you recall? 7 A: No I don't. 8 Q: And where you were located in the 9 Forest Detachment could you hear the radio 10 communications? 11 A: Not at that time I don't believe so, 12 no. 13 Q: At a later time? 14 A: Later the -- the night of the 15 shooting I was in the Detachment and there was a radio on 16 that I could hear because I was -- I was listening, but I 17 don't recall there being the opportunity to listen to 18 radio transmissions then. 19 Q: So the -- you have no further 20 information as of the evening of September the 5th about 21 the four (4) broken windshields, you simply had heard 22 that? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And what about the reports of 25 automatic gunfire being fired -- automatic weapons being
651 fired? 2 A: Same thing. I don't know where I -- 3 where I heard that or -- but I certainly never heard it 4 directly; it wasn't me that heard it. 5 Q: And why did you make a note of it in 6 your book? 7 A: I -- I guess it was -- I -- I saw it 8 as part of my duties to be able to report to Mark Wright 9 in the morning what had gone on in the evening, so I made 10 a note of it. 11 Q: Okay. And then: 12 "Sounds of heavy machinery. During -- 13 dump truck, back hoe? Unknown 14 location." 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Where did you get that information? 17 A: Maybe from the same source that I got 18 the other information, but I don't recall where that was. 19 Q: And again why did you make a note of 20 that? 21 A: For the same reason, just to let Mark 22 Wright know what had gone on. 23 Q: Then at the top of page 30 in the 24 morning of -- this would now be the morning of September 25 the 6th:
661 "Compile list of damaged autos." 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And you've listed the autos and the 4 damage to them? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: There was cruiser of Japp and Whelan 7 had damage to windshield, hood, both front fenders? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And then the damage to cruiser auto - 10 - operated by Hall and Horzema -- H-O-R-Z-E-M-P-A. 11 A: Horzempa. 12 Q: Horzempa had a damage to the 13 windshield and a cruiser operated by Bittner and 14 Aitchison. 15 A: Aitchison. 16 Q: Aitchison had a damage to windshield? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: So there were only three (3) cruisers 19 that you saw? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you examine the cruisers or 22 did somebody give you this information? 23 A: I don't -- I don't recall exactly. I 24 -- I want to say that I saw them, but it could be a 25 combination of both. I may have got the information
671 about who was driving. Who was assigned to those cars 2 from somewhere else but. 3 Q: Okay. And then do you recall what 4 you did next? 5 A: Next I was assigned to ride in the 6 MNR helicopter to monitor the seizing of picnic tables at 7 the end of Army Camp Road. 8 Q: And who went with you? 9 A: The MNR pilot. 10 Q: And was George Speck there, do you 11 recall? 12 A: I don't recall seeing him. He may 13 have been. 14 Q: And do you recall anybody else? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And so what did you do? 17 A: I went for a helicopter ride and I 18 observed the removal of the -- of the picnic tables. 19 Q: And where -- when you arrived over 20 the area, where did you observe -- can you recall the 21 scene and what it looked like; where the pic -- picnic 22 tables were, how they were arranged? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you recall if they're in a circle 25 around a -- a tent?
681 A: I remember that there was a tent. As 2 to the formation of the picnic tables, I have no memory 3 of that. 4 Q: And the -- do you have rec -- any 5 other recollection apart from your notes? 6 A: Apart from my notes, no. 7 Q: And what do your notes then say? 8 A: "Observed two (2) persons run from 9 area. One short with tan jacket ran to 10 the maintenance shed. Emerged a short 11 time later. A blue Barracuda which 12 drove through Park onto Matheson Drive 13 in the middle of camp and then down to 14 campsite on beach returning a short 15 time later to area where picnic tables 16 were moved. 17 Second person attired in blue shirt or 18 a jacket. Appeared to be taller. Ran 19 a short distance and then stopped and 20 observed. Stopped and looked up at the 21 helicopter." 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: "Stayed over the area for a few 24 moments after ERT dispersed. No 25 incident. Observed open gateway east
691 end of Park onto Matheson Drive. 2 Also observed several tire tracks 3 running from end of Army Camp Road onto 4 the beach..." 5 Q: "Through." 6 A: "...through creek and up into camping 7 area. And then I briefed Detective 8 Sergeant Wright. Coming off-duty." 9 Q: And the -- at the top of page 31 the 10 individual who ran to the -- that you observed going to 11 the maintenance shed and emerged a short time later, then 12 there's a reference to a blue Barracuda? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: Was the person drive -- getting -- 15 did the person get into a blue cre -- Barracuda? 16 A: I never saw that. And -- and what 17 the note says is he went into the maintenance shed and 18 then later a blue Barracuda came out. So I don't know 19 who was driving that car. 20 Q: You don't know who was driving? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And the person in the blue Barracuda 23 went -- drove through the Park onto Matheson Drive in 24 middle of Camp and then down to campsite on beach. And 25 that campsite on the beach you're referring to is on the
701 beach in front of the Army Camp? 2 A: I believe that's what I'm referring 3 to, yes. 4 Q: That was approximately half a mile 5 east of Matheson Drive? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And do you recall the person in the 8 blue shirt? Did you recognize either of these 9 individuals? 10 A: I thought that the -- the first 11 person in the brown jacket was Dudley. And I -- the -- 12 the second person in the blue shirt I thought might have 13 been David Abraham George. 14 And the only reason I say that is because 15 I thought I had seen him wearing a lumberjack style shirt 16 in the same colours but I couldn't say for sure who it 17 was. 18 Q: So you -- could you see their faces 19 or...? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No, okay. And the -- do you recall 22 how many officers attended in the sandy parking lot? 23 A: No. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
711 Q: And the -- how long were you up in 2 the helicopter, do you recall? 3 A: Not precisely. Moments. I don't 4 think it was terribly long, but I couldn't -- I couldn't 5 even guess how long it was. 6 Q: And when you were up in the 7 helicopter, did you observe other people in the 8 Provincial Park? 9 A: I don't recall that. 10 Q: And do you recall any people being 11 near the camp store; you know where the camp store was in 12 the Park? 13 A: Yeah. No, I don't recall. 14 Q: And did you observe anyone throwing 15 rocks or anything at the helicopter? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And the helicopter took off from 18 Forest? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And whereabouts in Forest? 21 A: It was being kept at a farm behind 22 the Detachment. Exactly where, I can't recall, but... 23 Q: And then you returned to the 24 Detachment? 25 A: Yes.
721 Q: And I note in your notes that you 2 went off-duty at ten o'clock? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Okay. This might be a good spot for 5 the morning break, Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. We'll 7 take a morning break now. 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 9 for fifteen (15) minutes. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 10:22 a.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 10:39 a.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 15 resumed. Please be seated. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: The -- I just want to step back for a 21 moment to the evening of September the 4th. And in the - 22 - your notes, you indicate that you arrived back at 23 Forest Detachment at 21:30. 24 And in the scribe notes, the copy that -- 25 of P-426 that you have, that appears at Tab 13 of your
731 material, at page 2 it -- it indicates at 21:09: 2 "Mark Dew arrived and spoke with Mark 3 Wright." 4 Do you see that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there's a slight difference 7 between the time that you have in your notebook and the 8 time in the scribe note. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: because in the scribe note there's an 11 entry at 21:30: 12 "John Carson advise, Mark Wright brief 13 as cruiser window smash. Troops 14 regroup." 15 Then 21:33: 16 "Trevor -- Mark Wright advised Trevor 17 Richardson of action to-date." 18 And Trevor Richardson refers to the 16:00 19 hours incident. And were you present when Mark Wright 20 and Trevor Richardson were speaking? 21 A: I don't recall that, no. 22 Q: And did you see anyone when you were 23 on the beach at 16:00? Did you observe anyone appear to 24 go into a trunk of a vehicle? 25 A: No.
741 Q: And on the -- when you returned at 2 midnight on September 4th to work the night shift into 3 the morning, the Command Post had not arrived when you 4 got there? 5 A: Yeah, I don't recall when it arrived, 6 but I don't think it was there yet. 7 Q: And I believe the evidence is that it 8 arrived some time over the -- during the night of -- the 9 morning of September 5th. 10 And the -- when you arrived back did -- is 11 it fair to say that you knew that something was up at the 12 Park? 13 A: I probably did but to be honest with 14 you I have no -- no recollection of that. 15 Q: Now, if we could move to September 16 the 6th. And if you go to your notes September 6th 17 starts in Exhibit P-1272 at page 32? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And it indicates -- your notes 22 indicate -- before you look at the notes do you have any 23 independent recollection of the evening of September the 24 6th? 25 A: Some.
751 Q: And can you -- do you have any 2 independent recollection of what you did when you first 3 arrived back at the Command Post or at the -- excuse me - 4 - at the Forest Detachment? 5 A: When I reported for duty that night 6 you mean? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I believe my first task was to go out 9 to Army Camp Road to see Constable Poole who was 10 interviewing a person who had some damage done to his 11 car, and so that is what I did. 12 Q: And on the way to see Constable 13 Poole, do you recall doing anything else on the way? 14 A: I had to stop at -- there were 15 checkpoints -- I had to stop at a checkpoint in front of 16 the main gate at Ipperwash on Army Camp Road and I had a 17 conversation with the ERT guys there. 18 Q: And do you recall what the 19 conversation was? 20 A: As I recall the gist of the 21 conversation was two (2) things. Number 1 was, at least 22 the person that I was speaking to if not all felt that 23 their -- their safety could be compromised because they 24 were in an open area; they were uneasy about their 25 position.
761 And number 2 was is that they told me that 2 women and children were leaving and they were leaving 3 because there was going to be trouble here tonight and 4 words to that effect. 5 Q: And do you recall who told you that? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And do you recall anything else 8 beyond that about the trouble? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And the ERT team man -- that were man 11 -- the team that was manning the roadblock was near the 12 entrance to the Army Camp north of the intersection of 13 Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 14 A: That's the way I remember it, yes. 15 Q: And you were stopped at -- you 16 stopped at the checkpoint? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were you stopped or did you just stop 19 to -- 20 A: I stopped to let them know who I was, 21 yeah. 22 Q: And the -- how long did it -- do you 23 recall how long it took you to drive from the Forest 24 Detachment to the Army Camp? 25 A: Not specifically, no.
771 Q: And do you have any idea how long it 2 would take to go that distance? 3 A: I would assume around fifteen (15) 4 minutes. 5 Q: And I note from your notes that you 6 report to duty, your notes at 19:55? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And then at Forest Detachment and -- 9 that: 10 "Assigned by Detective Sergeant 11 Richardson to head to scene of 12 mischief, Army Camp Road." 13 And the -- do you recall when you left the 14 Detachment? 15 A: Not specifically, but in my mind it 16 was -- it was right away. It was my first task and I 17 went to it. 18 Q: And the -- do you recall how long you 19 were at the Detachment before -- did you make the entry 20 19:55 when you were in the Detachment? Is that when you 21 arrived? 22 A: That's when I arrived, yes. 23 Q: And then you spoke to Detective 24 Sergeant Richardson and he said he would like you to go 25 down to see Poole --
781 A: Right. 2 Q: -- with respect to an incident which 3 Constable Poole was taking a statement for. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And then you drive down Army Camp 6 Road and Highway 21 and you stop at check -- the 7 checkpoint at the Army Camp? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And the -- do you recall when you 10 arrived at the checkpoint where Sam Poole was? 11 A: What time? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: No. 14 Q: And did you -- there's a reference in 15 your notes at page 33, 08:25, that's 8:25, I take it? 16 A: Should be 20:25. 17 Q: 20:25? 18 A: 8:25 p.m. right. 19 Q: It reads 8:25 but it should be 20:25? 20 A: That's correct, yeah. 21 Q: "Advised Inspector Linton of info 22 that female Natives were making -- are 23 moving children off the Base because, 24 [quote] 'something's going to happen 25 here tonight.' This information given
791 to me by ERT members at main gate, CFB 2 Ipperwash." 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And I'm just going to, if you turn to 5 Tab 17, there's a copy of Exhibit P-1136, and this is a 6 conversation that you had with, initially, Bob Cousineau 7 and then-Detect -- Inspector Linton. 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Excuse me for a moment, Commissioner. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And this is a call at 20:20 hours. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 16 17 Telephone Call: 18 19 Command Post Track 1 20 Date: 06 September 1995 21 Start Time: 20:20 hours 22 Duration of Transmission: 1 minute and 32 seconds 23 Conversation Involves: Sgt Cousineau, D/C Mark Dew 24 25 Cousineau: Command post Cousineau
801 Dew: Command post how are you doing 2 Cousineau: Not bad 3 Dew: Mark Dew 4 Cousineau: Yes Mark 5 Dew: Down at ah the beach to take a statement 6 off somebody the boys at the checkpoint up 7 at the main gate 8 Cousineau: Uh huh 9 Dew: Say that the women have come out and told 10 them they're removing all of the children 11 from the park tonight because something.s 12 supposed to happen in there 13 Cousineau: Okay uh 14 Dew: And we didn't think that was appropriate 15 for the airwaves so I don't know how it is 16 you handle it from there but 17 Cousineau: Okay do you want to talk to the Inspector 18 I'll let you tell that right to the 19 Inspector 20 Dew: Okay 21 Cousineau: Okay hold on 22 Cousineau: Inspector Mark Dew's got some information 23 they.re moving the women and children out 24 because something.s going to happen 25 Background: Move checkpoint B to checkpoint A
811 Linton: They're moving out the women and children 2 out 3 Cousineau: Yeah that's what he just told me 4 Linton: Okay what I want I want a message to ah to 5 the TRU team to stay suited at Pinery. 6 Can you get the TRU team 7 Linton: Yes Mark 8 Dew: Inspector I had no idea they would put you 9 on the phone for this but anyway the story 10 from the main gate is the women have come 11 across and told police that they intend to 12 remove all the children from the from the 13 Army Base tonight because something's 14 happening and they thought maybe that was 15 worthy of note and they didn't want that 16 broadcast across the airwaves they. I 17 don't know how their ah how their system 18 works for passing on information but ah 19 Linton: The women are saying they're moving all 20 the children out tonight something.s gonna 21 happening 22 Dew: They've got all the children it looks like 23 piled up at the main gate waiting for a 24 ride out of there 25 Linton: Who did they pass that on to
821 Dew: The ERT team guys right at the main gate 2 3 Linton: Okay 4 Dew: Okay 5 Linton: Yep 6 Dew: Right 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And there's a second transcript in 12 for the benefit of My Friends, it's 2000603, Inquiry 13 document that has the same conversation. 14 There's one (1) -- a couple of small 15 errors on Exhibit P-1136 that are picked up on 2000603, 16 but where it says "background," third from the bottom, 17 "move B to A" then [hyphen] "move Checkpoint 'B' to 18 Checkpoint 'A'," that's actually what's in the 19 background. 20 And on page 2 of 1136, the third entry for 21 Inspector Linton, "the woman are saying they're moving 22 out," should be inserted after "moving". 23 And how did you -- you indicated to 24 Inspector Linton that the ERT team members didn't want to 25 pass this message over the airways. I take it they
831 didn't want to use their radios? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And how did you make this call? 4 A: I thought that I had done exactly 5 that, called on the radio, but I apparently I made a 6 phone call. 7 Q: And the -- the call at 20:20, 8 Commissioner, is into the command post and it may be 9 subject to the seven (7) minute delay. And in the scribe 10 notes at -- for this telephone call, it's Exhibit P-426. 11 It appears as -- at page 74, Inquiry 12 document 1002419, at 20:26: 13 "Mark Dew called Dale Linton reporting 14 Native women and children moving out as 15 they report something is going to 16 happen." 17 And 20:29: 18 "Mark Dew reports kids are about to 19 picked up as women feel something is 20 about to happen." 21 So that there's a six (6) minute 22 difference for the first reference in Exhibit 426. 23 Now, did you have a mobile, did you have a 24 cell phone that night? 25 A: I may have. I don't recall
841 specifically having one and I don't know what good it 2 would be, frankly, that's terrible air space out there, 3 but I may have had a cell phone. I don't know how I did 4 that. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: I don't remember. 7 Q: Did you observe children at the main 8 gate of the army camp? 9 A: No, not that I recall. 10 Q: Not that you recall? You're simply 11 reporting what you had been told by the ERT members? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And did you make this call before you 14 went down to see -- drive north on Army Camp Road to see 15 Sam Poole? 16 A: I don't recall the timing of it, I 17 really don't. 18 Q: Do your notes help in any way to -- 19 or were these notes made subsequent to the events that 20 they're describing here? 21 A: It looks like that is the case, like 22 I made the notes after I'd had the conversation with Sam 23 Poole. 24 Q: And the notes both for the 25 conversation with Sam Poole and the telephone call?
851 A: Yes. 2 Q: You can appreciate what we're trying 3 to do is try -- 4 A: I understand. 5 Q: -- and piece together -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- what happened and when it 8 happened. And then your notes say -- do you recall the 9 attendance with Sam Poole? What do you recall when you 10 arrived at the checkpoint where Sam Poole is? 11 A: Very, very vague memory of -- of the 12 circumstances. I can't even remember the colour of the 13 car that was supposedly damaged. 14 I just remember the conversation with 15 Gerald George. And then I went to a private citizen's 16 residence to use the telephone to call the information in 17 that I obtained there. 18 Q: So can you tell us what you remember 19 -- what you remember? Tell us what you remember. 20 A: What I -- what I can recall of -- of 21 my conversation with Gerald George was this, is that at - 22 - at some point it's just the two (2) of us, and I don't 23 recall where we're standing or -- or what, but I remember 24 clearly he says the words to me, You didn't hear this 25 from me but those guys have in there, and then he listed
861 off some weaponry. 2 Q: And what else do you remember? 3 A: That's it. I remember him telling me 4 about -- about the types of guns and that they were 5 making Molotov cocktails and then I -- my next 6 recollection is standing in somebody's livingroom using 7 their phone. 8 Q: And the livingroom that you were 9 standing in to use the phone, do you recall where that 10 was? Was it...? 11 A: I can't recall if it was a house or 12 if it was a trailer but it was nearby. 13 Q: And do you recall anything about the 14 checkpoint, where the checkpoint was on Army Camp Road? 15 A: You mean other than at the main gate? 16 Q: The checkpoint where Sam Poole was 17 at? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Sam Poole was farther north towards 20 the lake? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And we understand that he was -- we 23 believe he was by Sunnyside Trailer Park? 24 A: Could be, I -- I don't recall. 25 Q: You don't recall?
871 A: Right. 2 Q: And the -- did you have a discussion 3 with Sam Poole about the statement? 4 A: Quite likely but I don't recall; I 5 don't recall doing that. 6 Q: And were you in uniform or in 7 civilian clothes that night? 8 A: Civilian clothes. 9 Q: And Sam Poole? 10 A: I don't recall for certain. I want 11 to say he was in his uniform but I can't say for sure. 12 Q: Okay. And perhaps you could read 13 through your notes about Sam Poole. You've read the 14 first part, then it says, start, "At scene", page 32. 15 A: "At scene received written statement 16 from PC Sam Poole." 17 Poole had taken statement from victim 18 George, Gerald C. and his address, date of birth, phone 19 number, and then there's a number to pass statement on. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: And the date. 22 Q: And then there's their telephone 23 conversation? 24 A: Right. With Inspector Linton. 25 Q: And then -- then you go on partway
881 down the page: 2 "Receive info..." 3 A: "Receive info from anonymous source 4 as to weapons. They have four (4) SKS 5 Russian semi-autos with thirty (30) 6 round detachable mags, one (1) or two 7 (2) have fixed ten (10) round mags, two 8 (2) Ruger mini 14's with thirty (30) 9 round mags, several hunting rifles with 10 scopes. Believes they may be making 11 gas bombs. He believes they will burn 12 some buildings on the Base tonight. 13 Advise Sergeant Rob Graham, ERT." 14 And then the next note is back at Forest. 15 Q: And you made a telephone conversation 16 -- call to Sergeant Graham. And please turn to Tab 18. 17 And this is a copy of P-1137. And as 18 well, for the benefit of My Friends, the transcript -- 19 the Inquiry Document of the transcript is 100013. 20 And the entry in the scribe note is at 21 20:43; it's page 75 of Exhibit P-426. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think the 23 document is 1000013. 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Pardon me?
891 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 1000013. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's four 3 (4) zeros. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, excuse me. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, 1 -- 1000013. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And I should ask you this: On the 10 last call we heard you recognized your voice? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that of Inspector Linton? 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 16 17 Telephone Call: 18 Command Post Track 1 19 Date: 06 September 1995 20 Start Time: 20:34 hours 21 Duration of Transmission: 2 minutes and 48 seconds 22 23 Conversation Involves: Peterman, D/C Mark Dew, Sgt Rob 24 Graham 25
901 Peterman: Command post Peterman 2 Dew: Hi how are you going it.s Mark Dew calling 3 again 4 Peterman: Yeah 5 Dew: I have some more information for the folks 6 there 7 Peterman: Okay uh who did you want to talk to 8 Dew: Well ah if if the ERT radio guy is 9 standing by there -- is there an ERT 10 Sergeant there 11 Peterman: Ah Yep can you hold on a minute 12 Dew: Yep 13 Peterman: Rob they want 14 Graham: Yeah Graham here 15 Dew: Hi Rob I can hardly hear you buddy 16 Graham: Yeah 17 Dew: Okay listen I just talked to ah a fella 18 down here who.s been in and eyeballed some 19 of the weaponry that they have do you have 20 an update on any of this stuff 21 Graham: I.m not sure 22 Dew: Okay they have 23 Graham: Who.s this 24 Dew: It.s Mark Dew 25 Graham: Okay
911 Dew: He has seen four SKS 2 Graham: SKS 3 Dew: yeah those are Russian semi-automatics 4 Graham: Yeah 5 Dew: They have thirty round detachable clips 6 and a couple of them have fixed ten round 7 clips 8 Graham: Yeah 9 Dew: They.ve got two Ruger mini fourteens with 10 thirty round mags 11 Graham: Two Ruger fourteens 12 Dew: Yeah he says ah 13 Graham: with how big of clips 14 Dew: Thirty. Three zero 15 Graham: Yeah 16 Dew: Hunting rifles with scopes of course 17 Graham: Yeah 18 Dew: He thinks they.re up to making gas bombs. 19 You heard the story about they moving the 20 children out the front is supposed to 21 happen tonight eh 22 Graham: Okay and ah gas bombs and they have been 23 moving the children out 24 Dew: Yeah the women the women from the Army 25 Base came across and told the ERT team
921 right there at the gate that they are 2 moving the children out tonight because 3 something.s supposed to happen in there 4 tonight 5 Graham: In the ah in the Army Base 6 Dew: Yeah 7 Graham: Maybe that.s why the unfriendlies are 8 showing up from Kettle Point 9 Dew: Absolutely positively now this guy that I 10 just spoke to says in his estimation what 11 they are going to do is they.re going to 12 start burning buildings in the army base 13 Graham: Who are 14 Dew: The people that are occupying it 15 Graham: The people that 16 DEW: I/A 17 Graham: yeah that makes a lot of sense 18 Dew: That.s what they.re going to do Apparently 19 if anymore of the Kettle Point Band 20 Council shows up there they.re going to 21 start burning buildings. I don.t know if 22 that.s a if that.s a rouse to draw your 23 attention away from that back corner down 24 there mumbly says there.s still a guy 25 inside the kiosk with the door shut and
931 the widows the curtains drawn eh 2 Graham: uh huh 3 Dew: You can.t see what he.s doing but every 4 once in a while he comes and flips out I.d 5 be worried about him being a sniper kind 6 of a guy 7 Graham: uh huh 8 Dew: And that.s everything I know for now Rob 9 Graham: Okay and that.s at eight forty three okay 10 thank you buddy 11 Dew: Now where do I go with this from for the 12 guys out here do you handle that from 13 there 14 Graham: I.ll let ah Stan know and he can he can ah 15 let them know what.s going on 16 Dew: super duper 17 Graham: Okay thank you Mark 18 Dew: Bye 19 Graham: Bye 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And Mr. Rob Graham puts the time at 25 8:43 at the end of the call. Do you see that in the
941 transcript P-1137? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Who's Mumbly? You refer to Mumbly. 4 A: Yeah. Mumbly's the nickname for 5 Chris Martin. 6 Q: And were you -- at this point in time 7 did you talk to Chris Martin? Where did you get this 8 information: 9 "Mumbly says there's still a guy inside 10 the kiosk." 11 Chris Martin -- 12 A: I thought -- I thought on that and 13 thought on that and I can't recall how I came across that 14 information. I may have talked to Chris by phone, I -- I 15 don't know. I can't recall how I -- how I got that. 16 Q: You may have talked to Chris by 17 phone -- 18 A: I may have heard it from someone 19 else, I -- I don't know. 20 Q: And do you recall where Chris Martin 21 was at this time of the night? 22 A: I think that he was monitoring from, 23 you know, a little room at Grand Bend Detachment. That's 24 what I think. 25 Q: And do you have recollection of
951 calling him in the period of time between eight o'clock 2 and either 8:34, 20:34 or 20:41 on the evening of 3 September the 6th? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And this call was made from a private 6 residence? 7 A: That's the way I remember it, yes. 8 Q: And at page 33 of your notes, you 9 refer to the anonymous informant? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that anonymous informant was 12 Gerald George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And why did you indicate in your 15 notes, didn't provide his name. 16 A: At that time I was concerned for his 17 safety. And he lives there, I couldn't see the point at 18 that time in giving his name up. 19 Q: And -- 20 A: It didn't effect the -- didn't effect 21 the information. 22 Q: Didn't effect. Now, do you recall 23 speaking to Gerald George sitting in a car? 24 A: No. No, my recollection is standing 25 on the roadway, but even that, to tell you where, I
961 couldn't. 2 Q: When you say you were "standing on 3 the roadway," the roadway at -- on Army Camp Road, near 4 the checkpoint? 5 A: That's what I want to say, but I 6 can't say for certain. I -- I recall standing and I'm 7 thinking I'm on a roadway, but where it is, what road it 8 is, I can't say. 9 Q: And the -- Gerald George testified 10 that he had driven up to the checkpoint and had been 11 asked to back in to the trailer park behind some hedges 12 and that he met with -- spoke with Sergeant -- excuse me, 13 with Constable Poole first and then with a second officer 14 in plain clothes, in his car behind -- parked behind the 15 hedges. 16 A: Well, as far as the location goes, I 17 -- I can't argue with you, because I don't recall. But I 18 really don't recall sitting down. 19 Q: And the car that he was driving was a 20 Pontiac Grand Am with bucket seats. 21 Does that assist? 22 A: No. No. 23 Q: And did you have a book of 24 photographs with you? 25 A: No.
971 Q: And had a book of photographs been 2 prepared that you were aware of, of the individuals in 3 the Park? 4 A: At that time, no, no. 5 Q: That -- do you know or you weren't 6 aware of it? 7 A: Not at that time, no. I've come to 8 know since because of my involvement with the file, you 9 know, years and years after the fact, but at that time, 10 no. I had never seen any album of photographs; I knew of 11 none. 12 Q: But subsequently, did you learn that 13 they had an album of photographs on the 4th, 5th and 6th? 14 A: No, sorry, that's not what I meant to 15 say. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: What I meant to say is later I found 18 out that there was an album of photographs. When it came 19 to be, I have no idea. 20 Q: Okay. And he -- Mr. George testified 21 that the person who spoke to him after the first police 22 officer, the uniformed police officer, spent 23 approximately twenty (20) to twenty-five (25) minutes 24 with him. 25 A: That's possible. I have -- I don't
981 recall how much time I was with him there. 2 Q: And that he asked -- Mr. George 3 testified, and this is at page 101 on January 13, page -- 4 January 13th, 2005, page 101 at lines 10 and following. 5 And at line 17, Gerald George says: 6 "He tried to ask -- first he asked me 7 who I was and why I was down there, so 8 I told him I was a councillor and I was 9 just down there to see what was going. 10 And then he said they were having some 11 trouble with some of the people in 12 there and if I could -- he pulled out a 13 book. I don't know where he got it, 14 but the pictures -- but they had a lot 15 of people's pictures in that book." 16 Page 102. 17 "Pictures of all the guys and he's 18 asking me who Isaac was, if I could 19 point him out. I said I didn't know 20 these people. So he asked you to point 21 out the people in the book? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: A book, they must have been taken, 24 because some of them looked like 25 helicopter shots or something. Anyway,
991 I just pointed, I said, That's Stuart 2 George, that's the guy who threw the 3 rock. 4 Q: And he had -- 5 A: His nickname's Worm. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: And I said his nickname's Worm. I 8 said that's the only one I pointed out. 9 Q: So he -- what he was trying to do 10 is to put names with other people? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And the one name that you remember 13 is Isaac, was it -- did he refer to? 14 A: Yes. Sam, Sam Isaac. I said I 15 didn't know, I didn't know who that 16 was." 17 Does that assist you -- 18 A: I had -- 19 Q: -- with -- 20 A: I had no photographs, no album of 21 photographs. It wasn't me. 22 Q: And then at page 103 he goes -- goes 23 on to say, starting at line 16: 24 "Q: And so the only person you 25 identified was Stewart -- Mr. Stewart
1001 George? Did you recognize any of the 2 other pictures that he had? 3 A: Yeah. They had a lot of pictures 4 of most of the guys in there. 5 Q: And you knew most of the people 6 that were there? 7 A: Yeah. They had some pictures of 8 the families in the book too, I 9 believe. 10 Q: And the -- and they had pictures 11 of other members of your First Nations 12 as well, I take it? 13 A: Yeah. [this is on page 104 line 14 3]. 15 Q: And then after he showed you this 16 book what happened? 17 A: And he said -- he said, Who's the 18 spokes -- I think he asked me, Who's 19 the leader of the group? And I said, I 20 don't know. And he said, Do you know 21 if they have any firearms in the Base 22 or in the Park? 23 I said, I didn't see any when I was 24 riding by there and I just said I saw a 25 guy with a stick.
1011 And then he said, Are there any -- do 2 you know if any of them own firearms? 3 I said, Well, I said, When I was in 4 there I used to hunt when I lived 5 there. I think these guys probably 6 hunt too. I said I used a Ruger mini 7 14 and I had a .12 gauge shotgun for 8 hunting ducks. 9 And he said, Do those guys have any of 10 that kind of stuff? 11 I said, They've probably got hunting 12 rifles in there too, you know, like 13 mini 14's and whatnot, like shotguns 14 for hunting around the duck pond, eh? 15 And then he asked me, Do they have any 16 anti-tank rockets? And I looked at 17 him, 18 I said, What do you mean anti-tank 19 rockets, you mean LAWS (phonetic) 20 disposable RPG 7? [and the transcript's 21 unclear] What are you talking about? 22 He said, We had reports that they have 23 an anti-tank rocket in here. I said -- 24 I said, There's got to be a connection 25 somewhere. I said, I don't -- I don't
1021 think so; that's kind of crazy." 2 And do you recall that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Does that -- when you say do you 5 recall it does it assist you in recalling the 6 conversation at all? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And do you re -- when you say you 9 can't recall it, is it that it didn't happen that way or 10 you don't remember if it happened that way? 11 A: In my mind it didn't happen that way 12 at all. In my mind it happened the way I described 13 earlier. 14 Q: And then he goes on to say, and this 15 is at the bottom of page 105 line 4: 16 "I thought he was just fooling around 17 with me and then he said, Are you sure 18 about the guns? I said -- I said, I 19 don't know. I said, I hunted in there 20 so I imagine they hunted in there. 21 There's probably guns up in the Base 22 somewhere but as for that... And then 23 it ended." 24 Q: Pardon me? 25 A: And then that was it.
1031 Q: And did you tell the constable 2 that the Natives occupying the Army 3 Camp were in possession of four (4) 4 Russian SKS semi-automatic rifles with 5 thirty (30) round detachable clips? 6 A: No, I didn't, because I don't 7 think none of them guys owned that kind 8 of stuff." 9 And then at page 107 line 16: 10 "And do you recall telling him that -- 11 referring to the four (4) Russian SKS 12 semi-automatic rifles? Did you tell 13 him that one (1) or two (2) of these 14 weapons have fixed ten (10) round 15 magazines? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you tell him that the Natives 18 occupying the Army Camp had two (2) 19 Ruger mini 14 rifles with thirty (30) 20 round clips and several hunting rifles 21 with scopes? 22 A: I told him I had a mini 14." 23 Then at line 9: 24 "Q: Did you tell him that the people 25 in the Camp had those?
1041 I told him -- 2 A: I told him people in the Army Camp 3 probably had similar -- similar guns 4 because they hunt deer in there in the 5 fall and they hunt ducks -- they duck 6 hunt." [excuse me] 7 Line 18 page 108: 8 And did you tell Constable Dew that gas 9 bombs were being built inside the Camp? 10 A: No, I read that and I don't know 11 where that came from because I wasn't 12 even allowed in the Camp; how could I 13 know what was going on in there?" 14 And then line 23: 15 "And did you tell Constable Dew that 16 you believed that some buildings on the 17 Base would be burned that night? 18 A: [page 109] No, I don't. And that 19 goes back to why would you burn down, 20 you know, places where you're living. 21 It don't make sense." 22 Does that assist your recollection? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And the -- do you disagree with that 25 conversation or --
1051 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: You don't remember anything beyond 3 what you've told us? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Then after you finished with Gerald 6 George you said that you went to a house and phoned from 7 a private house. 8 A: Yeah. Whether -- whether it was a 9 house proper or a trailer, I can't recall. But it was a 10 private residence. 11 Q: And why did you do that? 12 A: For a telephone. 13 Q: And why was that? Because there -- 14 A: I wanted to -- I want to call that 15 information into -- into the command post. 16 Q: And you're finished, according to Rob 17 Graham, on the conversation at 8:43? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: What did you do next? 20 A: I went back to Forest Detachment. 21 Q: And if I can take you to, please, at 22 Tab 19 of your book is a copy of Exhibit P-123, Inquiry 23 Document 2000549. And this is a copy of the statement 24 identified as Gerald George's statement taken by 25 Constable Poole on the evening of September the 6th.
1061 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was this the statement -- this is 3 the statement that you received from Constable Poole 4 that's referred to at page 32 of your notes? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the next entry at page 34, after 7 your entry about the telephone conversation with Sergeant 8 Graham, is at 21:57 hours, so that would be 9:57? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And what did you do between 8:43 and 11 9:57? 12 A: I don't -- I don't recall. 13 Q: And do you recall how long it took 14 you to get back to Forest from -- from the -- 15 A: No -- no, I would assume the same 16 fifteen (15) or twenty (20) minutes it took to get there. 17 Q: And do you have any recollection of 18 what you did after you returned to Forest between 8:43 19 and 21:57? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And did you -- after you made the 22 call to Sergeant Graham, Rob Graham, did you have any 23 further discussion with Gerald George? 24 A: Not that I recall. 25 Q: And when you returned to the Forest,
1071 what was the next thing you were asked to do? 2 A: I was asked to call the Sarnia jail 3 to speak with a supervisor there. I was to find out if 4 they had a wing or how many people they could accommodate 5 and if they could assist us in transport with a number of 6 people. 7 Q: And who asked you to do that? 8 A: Mark Wright. 9 Q: And what did you find out? 10 A: I found out that they had a van that 11 will hold ten (10), it says, question mark, so hold close 12 to ten (10) and that they could accommodate the people, 13 they could help us out. 14 Q: And what did you do with that 15 information? 16 A: I told Mark Wright that it could be 17 done. 18 Q: And there's a -- if you turn to, at 19 Tab 13 -- go to Tab 13, Exhibit 426, page 79. See an 20 entry 22:12? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: "Mark Wright advised Sarnia jail has 23 one (1) full wing for Natives and one 24 (1) prisoner van available for twelve 25 (12) at a time."
1081 A: Right. 2 Q: And that was the information you had 3 passed onto him? 4 A: More or less, yes. 5 Q: And then what did you do next? 6 A: I -- I think at that time, after 7 calling -- I called Diane Foster, the Assistant Crown 8 Attorney. 9 Q: That's the entry at 22:05? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And can you read that entry please? 12 A: "Spoke with Assistant Crown, Diane 13 Foster, re. charges for arrested 14 persons." 15 Q: Actually, it says: 16 "22:05, advised Detective Sergeant 17 Wright..." 18 And I take it that's with respect to the 19 information -- 20 A: From the jail. 21 Q: Jail? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then spoke with -- 24 A: "Assistant Crown, Diane Foster, re. 25 charges for arrested persons."
1091 Q: And what was that about? 2 A: I don't remember specifically, but I 3 want to say that it was going to be arrest for mischief 4 of some description. 5 Q: And arrest of who for mischief? 6 A: Natives or the occupiers from the -- 7 the sandy parking lot. 8 Q: And what did you know at 22:05 about 9 the sandy parking lot? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Not much more than that, that there - 14 - that there was a group of people on that sandy parking 15 lot and -- and there was going to be some engagement or 16 some kind of interaction with them and the police and the 17 likelihood that some would be arrested, and that's why I 18 was tasked with calling the jail to see what they could 19 accommodate. 20 Q: And... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: The -- when you returned to the 25 Forest Detachment, did you observe the -- any CMU
1101 members? 2 A: I may have. Not immediately, I have 3 no -- I have no direct recollection of that, no. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: Certainly later in the evening I did, 6 but... 7 Q: When you returned -- on your way back 8 from the checkpoint where Sergeant -- where Constable 9 Poole was located and you spoke to Gerald George, did you 10 drive by the sandy parking lot on your way back or did 11 you -- 12 A: No, I -- 13 Q: -- go back up -- 14 A: -- I went back up Army Camp Road. 15 Q: And could you observe the sandy 16 parking lot from the checkpoint that you were at with 17 Sergeant -- with Constable Poole? 18 A: I don't know. I don't know that I 19 recall -- I don't recall seeing it, so I guess that's my 20 best answer is I just -- I don't recall seeing it. 21 Q: And did you see Wade Lacroix on the 22 evening of September the 6th? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And when did you see him? 25 A: Closer to the time when the ERT team
1111 was going to go down to that area. 2 Q: And do you recall when the ERT team 3 was going to go down to that area? 4 A: No, not specifically, no. 5 Q: Was it before or after you called the 6 Sarnia jail? 7 A: It would be after that. 8 Q: And did you observe Wade Lacroix with 9 the Crowd Management Unit before they departed? 10 A: Yes. They -- I can recall seeing 11 them behind the Detachment; they were putting their gear 12 on. 13 Q: And were you inside or outside the 14 Detachment? 15 A: Outside. 16 Q: And did you observe or have an 17 occasion to hear anyone briefing them? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And what were you doing outside the 20 Detachment at that point? 21 A: Just walking around, I guess. I 22 don't recall specifically what my -- what I was doing. 23 Q: And were you told by anyone that you 24 can recall what the Crowd Management Unit was going to be 25 doing?
1121 A: I was never told specifically, no. 2 Q: Did you have any conversations with 3 any of the ERT members who were part of the Crowd 4 Management Unit before they left Forest? 5 A: Not that I recall, no. 6 Q: Did you have a conversation with Wade 7 Lacroix before you left Forest? 8 A: Not a conversation. I said Hi and he 9 said Hi back and that was it. 10 Q: And did you talk to Sergeant Wright 11 about what the -- Wade Lacroix and the CMU was going to 12 do? 13 A: I don't recall that, no. 14 Q: Inspector Carson? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Linton? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Sergeant Graham? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Sergeant Korosec? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And after you spoke to the Assistant 23 Crown Attorney regarding the charges, what did you do? 24 A: There was some time spent and I -- 25 and I wasn't doing it alone, setting up fingerprint and
1131 photographing stations in the Forest Detachment garage, 2 because we had anticipated there was a possibility of a 3 number of folks coming back to the Detachment under 4 arrest so we could fingerprint them, photograph them and 5 -- and get them loaded on the bus. 6 Q: And when you returned to the Forest 7 Detachment, do you recall if Inspector Carson was present 8 at the Detachment or not? 9 A: No. 10 Q: He -- his -- he usually stayed with 11 Linton in the Mobile Command Unit? 12 A: I guess, yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. And so do you recall what you 14 did with the statement, Exhibit P-123, Tab 19, after you 15 got back to the Forest Detachment? 16 A: No, I don't. The only thing that I 17 can say to you about that is that I have two (2) 18 notations. One is on page 32: 19 "At scene received written statement 20 from P/C Poole." 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And then on page 33 there's another 23 note at the top of the page that says: 24 "To past statement on." 25 And the best that I could tell you about
1141 that is that it sounds -- it reads to me like that was my 2 duty to pass that statement on. 3 But I have no -- I have no recollection of 4 doing that. 5 Q: Do you recall giving the statement to 6 Constable Speck? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Constable Speck says that he filed -- 9 testified that he filed a report which was Exhibit P- 10 1184, at 22:30 hours. And P-1134 is Inquiry Document 11 2005502 and there's a copy of it on the left hand -- yes. 12 And this incident report is -- is a typed 13 version of what Constable Speck said he had written out 14 on the evening of September the 6th relating to Gerald 15 George incident. 16 A: All right. 17 Q: Had you seen this before? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And so you -- after the call with 20 Diane Foster, you and others set up fingerprinting and 21 photographing stations in the Forest Detachment? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And then what happened? 24 A: At some point and I -- and I don't 25 remember how or exactly when I was in Forest Detachment,
1151 and I could hear -- hear the radio transmissions of the 2 ERT team as they made their way down Parkway Drive. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And my -- actually my first actual 5 recollection of -- of what was being said was at one 6 point they thought that they had identified a man on the 7 road with -- with a gun or a rifle and Lacroiox had 8 ordered the team to ground. And the next thing that I 9 can remember clearly hearing was the -- was the sound of 10 gunshots on the radio. 11 And that's -- that's what I remember from 12 the radio transmissions. 13 Q: And the evening of September the 6th 14 there was a communications radio in the Forest 15 Detachment? 16 A: I'm not sure what kind of a radio it 17 was. I'm not sure if it was a -- if it was a portable 18 radio or if they were -- I know at one time Forest 19 Detachment had a radio room; if that radio was -- was set 20 up to handle that, I -- I'm not sure where it came from 21 but I could hear radio transmissions. 22 Q: And where were you located in the 23 Forest Detachment? 24 A: I was seated at -- at a desk out in 25 the main office.
1161 Q: In the main, sort of, large open area 2 at the office? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And then do you recall where Mark 5 Wright was at this -- during this period of time in the 6 evening? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Now, there's an entry, if you turn to 9 Tab 13, the scribe note, P-426, page 79, 22:44. 10 "Mark Dew discussed the mischief 11 incident with Dale Linton to give 12 information to Superintendent, suspect 13 Stewart Bradley George hit car with 14 rock." 15 And this was during the period of time it 16 appeared that Dale Linton was on the phone with 17 Superintendent Parkin. 18 Do you recall this? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And do you recall having a discussion 21 with Inspector Linton about the mischief incident with 22 Gerald George? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And it would appear that if this is 25 accurate that Dale Linton was either in the Detachment or
1171 you were in the Mobile Command Unit. 2 A: So it would appear. 3 Q: And do recall being in the Mobile 4 Command Unit at this point in time in the evening of 5 September the 6th? 6 A: No, I don't recall that. 7 Q: Or do you recall Inspector Linton 8 being in the Forest Detachment? 9 A: As I said I -- I don't recall this 10 happening so to -- to say where I was is... 11 Q: Okay. Then what happened -- what 12 happened next? 13 A: Well, my next -- 14 Q: You -- you heard the -- over the 15 radio the sounds of gunfire? 16 A: Right. My next recollection was 17 being sent to Strathroy Hospital along with Detective 18 Constable Speck. 19 Q: And who sent you to Strathroy 20 Hospital? 21 A: I want to say that it was Mark Wright 22 but it may not have been, but that's my recollection. 23 Q: And when it says "23:48, 10-7 at 24 Strathroy" what does that mean? 25 A: It means that we're at the hospital.
1181 Q: At -- by 23:48 you're at Strathroy? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And do you recall when you left 4 Forest? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And you'll find on the inside of your 7 black binder there are two (2) transcripts. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the first is a transcript; it's 10 dated September the 6th, 1995. It's a radio 11 communication that's logged at 23:28. And because it's 12 not a telephone call I believe it doesn't suffer from the 13 seven (7) minute problem. 14 And I'm going to play that, Commissioner. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 17 18 [CP = Command Post, Jane] 19 [UK = Unknown officer] 20 21 CP: Ontario Provincial Police. 22 UK: Jane? 23 CP: Yeah. 24 UK: Need a log car - real quick. 1706. 25 CP: Yeah?
1191 UK: 30822. 2 CP: And a badge number? 3 UK: 505. 4 CP: What is it? 5 UK: 6505. 6 CP: Oh! That's you. 7 UK: No its not. Dew and Speck. And they'll be 8 heading to Strathroy Hospital. 9 CP: Oh, okay. 10 UK: Okay? 11 CP: Yup. 12 UK: All right. 13 CP: Okay bye. 14 15 End of Conversation 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And at -- I know that you're not on 21 that conversation but your badge number is 6505? 22 A: Yes, it is. 23 Q: And you went to Strathroy with 24 Constable Speck? 25 A: That's correct.
1201 Q: And I would ask that this be -- the 2 transcript of this call be marked the next exhibit? 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-1276, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1276: Transcript of Region 3, Bob 6 Cousineau, Chatham 7 Communications Centre, 8 September 06, 1995. 23:28 9 hrs. Chatham Communications 10 Centre, Logger tape number 11 0146, Track 03, Disc 03 of 12 20. 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And it might be an 15 appropriate time to reserve a number for the -- I'm going 16 to file an -- an audio CD with all of these audio calls 17 on it for Constable Dew. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-1277. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1277: Reserved. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then at 22:33 there's another call; 24 it's a communication between car 1706 -- 1706 and the 25 London Communications Centre and the person who is on --
1211 doing the -- on the radio is Constable Speck. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the wrong one. 6 Excuse me, Commissioner, it's Region 7. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 9 10 [LCC = London Communication Centre] 11 [1706=Speck] 12 13 1706: London 1706, London. 14 LCC: 1706 London 15 1706: London 1706. Would you have a Strathroy 16 unit meet us at the Strathroy hospital 17 with some statement forms? 18 LCC: 10-4 17067. What's your ETA there? 19 1706: We'll be there in about ten minutes. 20 LCC: 1706 - 10- 4. 21 1706: (inaudible) ...London. 22 LCC: 1706, 10-4. 23 End of conversation 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED)
1221 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And I would ask, do you recognize 3 Constable Speck on that? 4 A: Yes, yes. 5 Q: And that was a communication made by 6 Constable Speck from the cruiser that you and he were in. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I would ask that be the next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Which one is that. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's region 7. 11 THE REGISTRAR: 7. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23:33. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1278, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1278: Transcript of Region 7, Sgt. 17 Peer, Strathroy Hospital, 18 Mark Dew, September 06, 1995. 19 23:33 hrs. London 20 Communications Centre, Logger 21 tape number 086, Track 18, 22 Disc 18 of 20. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And at this point, you're on the way
1231 to Strathroy Hospital? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And how long did it take you to get 4 there from -- do you recall? 5 A: No. 6 Q: And what -- do you recall why you 7 were asking for some statements forms from Strathroy 8 unit? 9 A: I can only assume that that would be 10 a function that George anticipated we'd be completing, is 11 taking statements. 12 Q: Witness statement forms? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And so your notes indicate you 15 arrived at the hospital at 23:48? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And what did you do? 18 A: The first thing I did was locate the 19 supervisor -- 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Marlene Bergener (phonetic), and 22 Jackie Derbyshire and I think she's a nurse in Emerg. 23 And I learned that there was a second 24 gunshot coming by private vehicle and at that point, I 25 called the Comm Centre, requested a -- a two (2) man can
1241 attend the hospital for security purposes. 2 And I was awaiting arrival of ambulance: 3 "White vehicle, flat tire, numerous 4 Indians in vehicle. Chest wound. 5 Cleared emerge of all unnecessary 6 personnel." 7 Q: And the -- how did you learn of the 8 second gunshot wound? 9 A: I believe initially I learned of it 10 from the hospital staff themselves. 11 Q: And do you recall what they said 12 about that? 13 A: Just that a -- a second gunshot was 14 on its way by private vehicle. 15 Q: Okay. And please turn to Tab 20. 16 And Tab 20 is a call between yourself and the London and 17 Chatham Communications Centres. It's region number 4, 18 September 6th, 1995 at 23:51 hours. 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 22 23 LC= London Communication Centre] 24 [CC = Chatham Communication Centre] 25 [MD = Mark Dew]
1251 CC: Ontario Provincal Police 2 MD: How ya doin its Mark Dew. 3 CC: Hi Mark 4 MD: Im calling you from the Strathroy Hospital 5 CC: Yes 6 MD: We're gonna have apparently a second 7 gunshot victim on his way to the hospital 8 here coming in a private car. 9 CC: Okay 10 MD: We don't know how may ying yangs are gonna 11 be in the car. Can you call London and 12 have them send a Strathroy unit, maybe a 13 two man to stand out here in case we run 14 into some trouble here. 15 CC: Okay I'll let them know. 16 MD: Thank you very much 17 CC: Wait Mark. 18 MD: Yeah? 19 CC: Are you in uniform or plain clothes? 20 MD: We're in plain clothes but we're, visible 21 we've got identifiers on. 22 CC: Okay. 23 MD: Okay. 24 CC: Yeah thanks. 25 LC: Yes______(inaudible)
1261 CC: Okay, um I have a two-man unit at 2 Strathroy Hospital with a gunshot victim. 3 LC: Yeah. 4 CC: Apparently there's gonna be a second 5 gunshot victim coming in a private 6 vehicle. 7 LC: Yep. Yep. 8 CC: They were wondering if you could send a 9 possible two-man unit. 10 LC: We've already done it. 11 CC: Oh...you're a doll. 12 LC: Yeah. We're listening to the whole thing 13 up at Ipperwash here so. 14 CC: Oh God....Oh. 15 LC: We have it tuned right into our comm. 16 Center. 17 CC: Thank you very much. 18 LC: Okay 19 LC: Okay. Bye Bye. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And that's you, Constable Dew, on 25 that conversation?
1271 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the -- I would ask that that be 3 the next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1279, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1279: Transcript of Region 4, Mark 7 Dew, London Communications 8 Centre, September 06, 1995. 9 23:51 hrs. London 10 Communications Centre, Logger 11 tape number 0146, Track 3, 12 Disc 3 of 20. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And the -- does this assist you at 16 all in how you got the information about the second car 17 coming? 18 A: It appears that I got the information 19 from the hospital and I was calling the Comm Centre to 20 advise them and to get some assistance. 21 Q: And there's a reference: 22 "We don't know how many ying/yangs are 23 going to be in the car." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what does the reference
1281 "ying/yangs?" 2 A: It's a term for people. 3 Q: People? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And is that a term you use? 6 A: Quite routinely. 7 Q: Oh. So, and when you use it 8 routinely, what's it used for? 9 A: For people in general, and a lot of 10 times, probably in most cases, at that particular time, 11 given the ages of my own children, my children. 12 Q: Oh. And it's -- but is it a term 13 that you used for any particular group of people? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Then there's a -- at Tab 21 there's a 16 transcript, it's a call identified as being at 23:52 17 hours, region 6. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 20 21 [SH = Strathroy Hospital] 22 [DP = Sergeant Doug Peer] 23 [MD = Detective Constable Mark Dew] 24 25 SH: Strathroy Hospital.
1291 DP: Yes, this is Sergeant Peer of London OPP 2 Communications calling. How are you 3 tonight? 4 SH: Not too bad. 5 DP: Good. Did the ambulance arrive there yet 6 that's bringing in the gunshot 7 [inaudible]? 8 SH: Now they brought somebody in but I'm not 9 sure - Let me check with them. 10 DP: Oh, okay. 11 [Pause - with various background noises and 12 conversations] 13 SH: No they haven't arrived yet. 14 DP: They haven't eh. Okay. [inaudible] 15 SH: [inaudible] ... officers here though. 16 DP: Yup. Yeah. 17 SH: Would you like to talk to them? 18 DP: Well alright, yeah. 19 SH: Okay. I think they're just outside. Just 20 hold on, okay. 21 DP: Okay. 22 [Pause - with various background OPP Logger 23 conversations] 24 MD: Mark Dew. 25
1301 DP: Yeah, Mark. Sergeant Peer, London Comms. 2 MD: Good. 3 DP: Yeah. Just so you're aware. You're waiting 4 for the ambulance to get there I guess, 5 eh? 6 MD: Yeah. The hospital here advises that a 7 second gunshot coming in a private car. 8 DP: Yeah, it's a white vehicle with a flat 9 tire. There's numerous Indians in it 10 apparently besides the - the ah - victim 11 that's been shot in the chest. 12 MD: Okay. 13 DP: ?? all we've got is that it's a white car 14 with a flat tire. We've got a - three 15 officers heading to the hospital from the 16 Strathroy Detachment. And we've also asked 17 Strathroy PS to send a car over ah- 18 because ah - 19 MD: We're going to have trouble, eh. 20 DP: Well, they're - they're figuring there's a 21 possibility of it. And they're figuring 22 that there could be weapons in this white 23 vehicle too. 24 MD: Absolutely. Positively. Yup. Okay, thanks. 25 DP: Okay then.
1311 MD: Bye-bye. 2 DP: Bye. 3 4 End of conversation 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And do you recognize your voice in 10 that transmission? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And I would ask that this 13 transmission be marked the next exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1280, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1280: Transcript of Region 6, Sgt 17 Peer, Strathroy Hospital, 18 Mark Dew, September 06, 1995. 19 23:52 hrs, London 20 Communications Centre, Logger 21 tape number 086, Track 2, 22 Disc 2 of 20. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And just for the purposes of clarity,
1321 on the first page of the transcript, P-1280, six (6) -- 2 the sixth entry from the bottom, it's: 3 "SH Strathroy Hospital." 4 It says: 5 "[Inaudible] ...talk to them." 6 One can hear -- I heard over the -- when 7 it was being played: 8 "Would you like to talk to them?" 9 That's what it says. And then on page 2, 10 the sixth entry from the bottom: 11 "MD: We're going to have trouble." 12 And then it sounds like, "eh." 13 "We're going to have trouble, eh." 14 Did you hear that Constable? 15 A: I -- I think I did, yeah. 16 Q: So I think it should be, "eh" where 17 it says, "inaudible?" 18 And why did you think you were going to 19 have trouble? 20 A: Based -- based on the comment that I 21 had just received; they said that there was a second 22 gunshot coming. And I thought that somewhere in there 23 there was a reference to -- at any rate, that there was 24 just -- it was in response to the comment: 25 "We've got three (3) officers heading
1331 to Strathroy Hospital and we've also 2 asked Strathroy PS to send a car over 3 because..." 4 So that was me I guess kind of half 5 surmising and half questioning, Are we going to have 6 trouble? 7 Q: And then indicates that: 8 "Sergeant Peer fearing that there could 9 be weapons in this white car too." 10 And you respond: 11 "Absolutely, positively, yup. 12 Okay. Thanks." 13 And why did you say that? Why were you so 14 positive there would be guns in the car? 15 A: I wasn't. What I was doing there was 16 letting him know that I got what he had just said -- 17 Q: Oh, I see, I misread that. So you're 18 responding to what he had said? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Not responding that you believed 21 that -- 22 A: I was -- I was acknowledging what he 23 had told me. 24 Q: Then if you turn back, please, to 25 page 34, Tab 4, Exhibit P-1272, Inquiry Document 2003453
1341 at -- there's an entry, it's -- excuse me, it should be 2 at page 35 at 00:03. 3 A: "Spoke to Detective Sergeant 4 Richardson?" 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And then: 7 "Call Comm Centre." 8 Q: And do you recall the discussion you 9 had with Detective Sergeant Richardson? 10 A: I believe at that time I learned that 11 Trevor, and possibly with Detective Sergeant Bell, I 12 think at the time was a sergeant, were out looking for 13 that white car, that they hadn't found it, and that -- 14 that when they arrived persons in the car were to be 15 arrested for attempt murder, which prompted me to call 16 the Comm Centre to ask for help. 17 Q: And is that referring to the call 18 we've just heard? 19 A: I believe it does, yeah. 20 Q: Which was at... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: ...23:52, P-1280? 25 A: Hmm hmm.
1351 Q: Tab 21? 2 A: I don't know if that's the call or -- 3 or maybe a later one. 4 Q: Pardon? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: The next call we have is the 00:04 -- 10 there's a call at 00:04 and it appears at Tab 22? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: It's Region 5. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 15 16 [LC= London Communication Centre] 17 [CC = Chatham Communication Centre] 18 [MD = Mark Dew] 19 20 CC: Chatham OPP 21 MD: Hi Mark Dew again. 22 CC: Hi Mark 23 MD: Can you guys be aware of any stolen cars 24 up in the neighbourhood the north east 25 Lambton County. And can you drop a line
1361 to London OPP comm. center and have them 2 alert anybody out on the road for stolen 3 vehicles. We can't find this white car it 4 hasn't been spotted on its way to the 5 hospital yet. 6 CC: White car eh? 7 MD: White car with a flat tire. So they may 8 be trying to boost another vehicle to get 9 their buddy here. 10 CC: Oh okay. 11 MD: Okey dokey 12 CC: Notify you if ah.., 13 MD: Well yeah you can try... We're at 14 Strathroy Hospital, 245-1550. 15 CC: 245-1550...that's where you're at? 16 MD: Yeah 17 CC: Okay Mark 18 MD: Thanks 19 CC: Thank you. Bye. 20 MD: Bye. 21 LC: Chatham? 22 CC: Hi there. Had Mark Dew, one of our guys. 23 He's at Strathroy Hospital, and he wants 24 you guys to be alerted for any stolen 25 vehicles and just to let us know.
1371 LC: Okay I already got three cars out at the 2 Strathroy Hospital right now plus three 3 guys. 4 CC: Yeah. 5 LC: So, any stolen vehicles? 6 CC: Yeah 7 LC: Okay do you have any or....As far as I 8 know we don't have any right now. 9 CC: Okay but if you do get any let us know 10 ASAP. 11 LC: Okay 12 CC: Okay thanks 13 LC: Bye 14 CC: Bye 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 17 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would ask that 19 that call be marked the next exhibit. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1281, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1281: Transcript of Region 5, Mark 23 Dew, London Communications 24 Centre, September 07, 1995. 25 00:04 hrs, London
1381 Communications Centre, Logger 2 tape number 0146, Track 4, 3 Disc 4 of 20. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And so you made this call at four (4) 7 minutes after midnight on the morning of September the 8 7th and you're trying to determine if there are any 9 stolen cars? 10 A: Right. And this -- this is the phone 11 call I made to the Comm Centre in relation to my 12 conversation with Detective Sergeant Richardson. 13 Q: And now, the -- the conversation with 14 Detective Sergeant Richardson, you simply got a note: 15 "Spoke to Detective Sergeant 16 Richardson." 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And do you -- do you have an 19 independent recollection of what he told you on that 20 call? Oh, is Richardson there? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Oh, excuse me. I misunderstood, got 23 two (2) -- so -- thank you. So at this point in time do 24 you -- do you recall when Detective Sergeant Richardson 25 and Bell arrived? Was it at 00:3?
1391 A: Yes. 2 Q: And so the instructions that they 3 give you were what? 4 A: Well they told me -- 5 Q: Or Richardson gave you? 6 A: Yeah, they told me a couple of 7 things. Number 1 was that when the car arrives that the 8 people inside the car are to be arrested for attempted 9 murder. 10 And I -- I'm going to suggest, by the 11 content of this phone call, that he wanted me to call the 12 Comm Centre to check to see if there any stolen cars out 13 there. 14 Because I knew that he had not had success 15 yet in finding the white car. 16 Q: Okay. And then what happened next? 17 A: My next -- my next note is at 00:4: 18 "Ambulance arrives with an injured 19 party, Nick Cottrelle, who is seen by 20 Dr. Marr. 21 Laceration left side, minor abrasion to 22 left wrist." 23 And says: 24 "Passenger seat." 25 I'm not sure what that note refers to.
1401 Q: Okay. And were you inside or outside 2 the hospital when the ambulance arrived? Do you recall? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 Q: And then the next entry; what 5 happened next? 6 A: The white car arrives and -- no, 7 that's not true. Uniformed police officers arrived 8 first, just ahead of the white car. And then the white 9 car arrives. And when it comes to a stop, the persons 10 inside the car are arrested by the uniformed persons. 11 I see Anthony George in the back seat. 12 And then hospital personnel come out and put him on the 13 stretcher and take him into the hospital. 14 Q: And did you observe the -- any other 15 activity around the car? 16 A: I observed some of the arrests as 17 they took place. 18 Q: And what did you observe about the 19 arrests? 20 A: I can recall at -- I can recall 21 snapshots of what happened. And one of those snapshots 22 is officers wrestling with -- with one of the occupants 23 and falling into some bushes. 24 I can recall someone else being arrested 25 and -- and faced into a brick wall. And then my next
1411 recollection is looking into the back seat of the car and 2 seeing Dudley there. 3 Q: And did you recognize the person in 4 the back seat of the car? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And you recognized the person as 7 Dudley George? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And what did you observe of his 10 condition when you looked in the back seat of the car? 11 A: There was no question in my mind that 12 he had passed on. 13 Q: And why was that? 14 A: Well, I hate -- I hate to say terms 15 like this, I -- I don't think that I've seen a whole 16 bunch of dead people as opposed to some other folks who 17 may have seen more, but I -- I think I've seen enough to 18 recognize one when I saw one. In my mind, he was dead. 19 Q: And the -- did you participate in the 20 arrest of the occupants of the car? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: And was Detective Sergeant Richardson 23 there when these arrests took place? 24 A: In my memory, yes. 25 Q: And do you remember, was Sergeant
1421 Bell there? 2 A: I don't -- I don't recall Sergeant 3 Bell there. He -- he may have been, I don't recall. 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall how long it 5 took between the time the white car arrived and Mr. 6 George to be removed from the automobile? 7 A: To be able to say exactly would be -- 8 would be a stretch. I -- I just -- in my memory, it was 9 -- it was quick, I would say it was a minute to two (2) 10 minutes max. It was very quick. 11 Q: And were you outside when the white 12 car arrived? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And why were you outside? 15 A: We were waiting for the white car -- 16 Q: You were waiting for the car? Then 17 what happened next? 18 A: Then the St. John's ambulance arrives 19 with -- with a person suffering from head trauma, name 20 unknown. I didn't know who that person was then. 21 Eventually I came to know that he was Cecil Bernard 22 George. He arrives in the St. John's ambulance. 23 And then I have a note that the white 24 vehicle is to be towed to Strathroy OPP and secured in 25 the garage.
1431 Q: And did you attend to that, or 2 arrange for that? 3 A: I don't believe so, no. 4 Q: And why did you make a note of that 5 in your notebook? 6 A: I'm not really sure why I wrote that 7 down, other than just to know that it was there. I -- I 8 guess -- I guess at that point I didn't really know 9 exactly what my function was going to be. 10 I was doing my best to document what I 11 could, when I could, and there's the note. I can't tell 12 you more than that. 13 Q: All right. And then there's another 14 conversation that you had where you call the Chatham 15 Communication Centre -- or Chatham Communications centre 16 calls you and it's about a stolen car that was picked up 17 in Petrolia. 18 Do you recall that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: If you look in that -- the last 21 transcript in that, inside -- no, inside the black 22 binder. 23 A: In here? 24 Q: Yeah. It says region 10. I'm not 25 going to play this, but it's -- it says 23:50 on the --
1441 on the document, but it's 00:21 hours. 2 A: I don't have it. 3 Q: You don't have that one? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. If we just... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Thank you, sir. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Well, we'll just play it and then 14 we'll mark that copy as an exhibit. This is at 00:21 on 15 September the 7th. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 18 19 [SH = Strathroy Hospital Switchboard] 20 [MD = Mark Dew] 21 [CCC= Chatham Communication Centre] 22 [ED=Emergency Department] 23 24 SHS: Strathroy Hospital 25 CCC: Hi. Could I have your Emergency
1451 Department please? 2 SHS: Yes. Just one moment. (phone ringing) 3 CCC: (in background) Thank you for your help 4 Norm! 5 EM: Emergency. (inaudible)....speaking. 6 CCC: Yeah hi. It's the OPP calling back. I 7 need to speak to Constable Dew. 8 EM: Who? 9 CCC: Dew, Constable Dew. 10 EM: Dew. One Moment. 11 CCC: Dew (D E W) 12 EM: One Moment (In background) Is there a 13 Constable Dew? 14 MD: Mark Dew? 15 CCC: Mark. 16 MD: Yeah. 17 CCC: Yeah. You wanted to know of any stolen 18 vehicles. 19 MD: Yeah. 20 CCC: Well Petrolia picked one up about 20 21 minutes ago. 22 MD: Oh is that right? 23 CCC: Two suspects they were in the vehicle. It 24 was a pick up truck from Sarnia. 25 MD: Okay. Can't be, can't be related
1461 CCC: Okay then. 2 MD: Thanks buddy. 3 CCC: You're welcome. 4 MD: Bye bye. 5 CCC: Bye. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Perhaps we'll mark that the next 11 exhibit, just for the sake of completeness. And I'll 12 provide the -- a copy to the registrar and to the 13 reporter. That'll be -- 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1282, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1282: Transcript of Region 10, Mark 17 Dew, Chatham Communications 18 Centre, Strathroy Hospital 19 Switchboard, Emergency 20 Department, September 06, 21 1995, 00:21 hrs, Chatham 22 Communications Centre, Logger 23 tape number 0147, Track 7, 24 Disc 7 of 20. 25
1471 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: I'd like to just go back a moment. 3 When the white car arrived and you saw Dudley George in 4 the back seat of the car, can you -- do you recall what 5 his position was in the car? 6 A: Yeah. In -- in my mind's eye he's -- 7 he's kind of slumped in the rear driver's side seat. 8 Q: On the rear driver's side. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And do you recall anything other -- 11 anything else about his physical condition that you can - 12 - what he looked like? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did you see any blood? 15 A: Not that I recall. 16 Q: And do you recall how many people 17 were in the car when it arrived? 18 A: I think there was four (4) in total. 19 Q: Including Mr. George? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And do you recall -- can you -- what 22 happened when the car arrived? Did anyone get out of the 23 car? Who got out of the car first? Do you recall? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Do you recall who was arrested first?
1481 A: No. 2 Q: Do you recall anything that was said 3 by any -- either the officers or the people in the car? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you recall an ambulance attendant 6 coming up to the car and starting to help, not from 7 inside the hospital but from outside the hospital? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And how long was it between the time 10 the car arrived and Mr. Dudley George was removed from 11 the car? 12 A: As I said before he -- he was 13 quickly, in my mind, certainly no more than a minute to 14 two (2) max. 15 Q: And how far was it from the Emergency 16 Ward to where the car was? 17 A: The Emergency Ward is just in -- as I 18 recall it at least, through the doors and to the left; 19 it's right there. 20 Q: And how was Dudley George removed, 21 was he -- when he was removed, what happened to him? 22 A: I don't -- I don't recall watching 23 that. 24 Q: You don't recall watching him being 25 removed from the Car?
1491 A: No. 2 Q: Do you recall a stretcher being 3 brought out? 4 A: Yeah, that's what I recall. 5 Q: And where did the stretcher come 6 from? 7 A: From inside the hospital. 8 Q: And did you see Mr. George being put 9 on the stretcher? 10 A: No, I don't -- I don't remember 11 seeing that part. 12 Q: Do you recall anything else about the 13 scene with the white car outside the hospital? 14 A: Other than it being chaotic, no. 15 Q: It was chaotic? 16 A: In my mind, yes. 17 Q: And then you have just a minute later 18 the -- of an ambulance arriving with Cecil Bernard 19 George? 20 A: That's what my notes say, yes. 21 Q: And today do you recall the timeline 22 between the white car arriving and Cecil Bernard George 23 arriving? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And then we have the call at P -- at
1501 P-1282 at twenty-one (21) minutes after midnight. 2 What were you doing after the white car 3 arrived and the St. John's Ambulance arrived with Cecil 4 Bernard George? 5 A: I -- I don't recall. I have -- I 6 have no notes to assist me with that either, I don't 7 think. I -- I don't remember. 8 Q: And did you see Cecil Bernard George 9 when he came out of the St. John's Ambulance? 10 A: I believe that I -- I saw him in 11 passing in the doorway into the Emergency Department. 12 Q: And do you have any recollection of 13 what he looked like? 14 A: He looked like he had been in a 15 fight. 16 Q: And when you say, "He looked like he 17 had been in a fight," what did he look like? 18 A: Well, all I can recall really is that 19 his -- parts of his face looked red and swollen. 20 Q: And did you make any observations as 21 to how his face became red and swollen? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Then there's an entry at 00:59 hours? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And --
1511 A: At this time I'm -- I'm talking to 2 Maynard Sam George. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: "And he would like to know -- would 5 like to be notified when the body is 6 released. Family members in with body 7 for religious ceremony." 8 And then the next note is: 9 "Cecil Bernard George to be transported 10 to London. Boon to go with ambulance." 11 Q: And can you -- do you have any other 12 recollection of your discussion with Mr. Sam George? 13 A: I can recall that I was -- I was 14 struck by how much of a gentleman he was and how well he 15 treated me, given the circumstances. He was very 16 respectful, and a very quiet man, and -- and obviously 17 very concerned. 18 And I can't -- I can't recall -- I think 19 that he arrived with someone else and maybe it was Reg 20 George. I can't -- I can't recall the exact time of when 21 I got to talk to everybody in particular. 22 But I remember that there was a Reg there 23 and then eventually Ron George or Inspector George 24 arrived. 25 Q: I think you'll see in your notes that
1521 Reg George came with Ron. 2 A: Is that how it happened? 3 Q: And but do you recall -- did Mr. Sam 4 George ask you if a ceremony -- a religious ceremony 5 could be -- 6 A: He asked if he could do a sweet grass 7 ceremony of the body and initially I had balked because I 8 was concerned about the oxygen in the -- in the room. 9 And I believe that some of the staff of the hospital were 10 concerned about that too. But as I recall it -- 11 Q: You said the oxygen -- the fact that 12 there was oxygen and there might be a fire? 13 A: Right. And I think that at one point 14 everyone was overruled by Trevor Richardson who said, No, 15 it's going to happen and that's that. And so it did. 16 Q: And so was Trevor -- was Trevor 17 Richardson part of the conversation with Mr. Sam George, 18 or did you speak to him about it? 19 A: I can't remember. I can't recall how 20 that happened. It seems to me that I -- I told Trevor 21 and then -- and Trevor had said almost immediately, Well 22 then it happens and that's that. 23 Q: And it did happen? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what were your feelings when you
1531 were at the hospital the evening of September 6th, in the 2 early morning of September 7th? 3 A: I was -- I was -- I was overwhelmed 4 and I was a little bit in shock. I was extremely 5 frustrated with a couple of things. 6 One of the things that frustrated was -- 7 frustrated me was my lack of understanding of exactly 8 what it was that was expected of me while I was there. 9 I felt like I was kind of floating in 10 space, not really sure what to do next or why. 11 Everything happened so fast and in such a blur that to 12 this day, try as I might, I have a hard -- I have a very 13 hard time trying to put things into sequence in -- in my 14 mind. 15 And I don't know that my notes are of that 16 much assistance to me in -- in trying to do that. But 17 things seemed to just come so fast and everything was so 18 confusing and chaotic, in my mind at least. 19 Others may have perceived it differently, 20 but for me, that's the way it was. 21 Q: And you said you were in shock. And 22 why were you in shock? 23 A: I just -- I'd never been involved in 24 -- in anything quite like this before. And I -- I -- you 25 know, I guess I can -- I can describe it best as being
1541 sort of a sense of helplessness at -- and being upset 2 that I didn't feel better equipped to deal with things as 3 they came, because I -- I wasn't really ever clear on 4 what it was precisely that was expected of me there. 5 Q: And no one gave you any instructions 6 to clear that up? 7 A: You know what, they may have had some 8 understanding or they may have thought that I had an 9 understanding of what I was to do, and I understand that 10 there's a difficulty with time and there's only so much 11 time to pass instruction on. But at any rate, those are 12 my -- that was the way I was feeling at the time. 13 Q: And although there's not a note in 14 your book, Tab 23 there's a call that you made at 1:13 in 15 the morning of September 7th, it's Region 12. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 18 19 [LC = Chatham Communication Centre] 20 [MD = Mark Dew] 21 [LC= London Communication Centre] 22 23 LC: Ontario Provincial Police. 24 MD: Hi how ya doin', its Mark Dew calling from 25 the Strathroy Hospital
1551 LC: Yes Mark 2 MD: Can you patch me through to the Strathroy 3 detachment. 4 LC: Sure, just one moment. 5 LC: Just a sec I gotta try this again 6 MD: Okay 7 LC: It didn't take the first time. 8 LC: Hold on a sec, something's wrong with 9 Strathroy. 10 LC: Hold on a sec I'll try it here 11 LC: This goddamn thing doesn't want to work 12 MD: Can you pass a message to them for us 13 then? 14 LC: Sure 15 MD: Can you tell them that the brother of the 16 people that they have in the cells there. 17 His name is Maynard George. 18 LC: The brother of who Maynard? 19 MD: Sam is his name. Sam George is coming to 20 visit the people they have in the cells. 21 LC: Okay, Sam George. 22 MD: Tell them we don't have a problem with 23 that. He's a pretty reasonable fella 24 and.... 25 LC: Okay
1561 MD: And a we don't have a problem with him 2 having a visit. 3 LC: And who is this I'm talking to? 4 MD: Mark Dew. 5 LC: Okay. Arighty, I'll let them know that. 6 MD: Sure 7 LC: Right-o 8 MD: Bye. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Now you didn't hear the second part 14 of this call, but we'll play it. It's all part of the 15 same clip. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 18 19 GM: Constable Miller 20 LC: Yeah Gerry its Dave here. Mark Dew is at 21 the hospital and wanted us to let you know 22 that the brother of Maynard George who is 23 in your cell there... 24 GM: Maynard George? 25 LC: The brother of Maynard George.
1571 GM: I have a Perry George here. 2 LC: He told me it was Maynard. 3 GM: Well I got James and a Perry. I don't 4 know, they go by 16 different names. 5 Anyways, what 6 about it? 7 LC: Anyway, the brother Sam is on his way over 8 to visit with him and Dew said he has no 9 problem with that. Just so you are aware 10 of it. 11 GM: He's gonna let him visit him? 12 LC: Yep, he says he's got no problem with 13 that. This Sam is pretty reasonable sort 14 of person and he doesn't have any problem 15 with it. 16 GM: Hm...Well I do but. 17 LC: I tried to patch you over but I 18 couldn't...it wouldn't take for some 19 reason. 20 GM: And who is this guy that says its okay? 21 LC: Mark Dew... D E ..I think its D E W. But 22 he's at the hospital. 23 GM: And what's his title? 24 LC: I don't know. He'd be just one of the 25 officers but I didn't take that. Now if
1581 you want to call the hospital back. 2 GM: Yeah I think I might just do that. If 3 he's just a constable then I don't think 4 I'm going to let him in. 5 LC: Alright, let me just get you the hospital 6 number here. 7 GM: I'm sure I have it here. 8 LC: Should be right here, Strathroy, 245- 9 1550. 10 GM: 245-1550 11 LC: Yeah 12 GM: Okay, the Staff is here now so I'll maybe 13 ask him too. Alright thanks. 14 LC: Yep 15 GM: Okay Gerry 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And you're the -- you recognize your 21 voice on the first part of the call? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: I would ask that that be marked the 24 next exhibit. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-1283, Your Honour.
1591 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1283: Transcript of Region 12, Mark 2 Dew, London Communications 3 Centre, September 07, 1995. 4 01:13 hrs, London 5 Communications Centre, Logger 6 tape number 087 Track 6, Disc 7 6 of 20. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And listening to it, Commissioner, on 11 the second part, page 2, the third entry from the bottom, 12 "LC" where it says: 13 "He says he's a sound guy." 14 It sounds like he says: 15 "This Sam is pretty reasonable sort of 16 person." 17 If we could make that change. It's the 18 fourth line from the bottom, page 2. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: He says: 23 "This Sam is pretty reasonable sort of 24 person." 25 And then at the top of page 3, the second
1601 entry, where it says, "hope" it should be, 'think.' 2 'I think it's Dew' instead of, "I hope 3 it's Dew." 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And there's another change on page 1; 8 it's the tenth entry down where it says: 9 "Hold on a sec, I'll try it here." 10 It should be: 11 "I'll try it again." 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: So then, going back to your notes, 16 Exhibit P-1272, page 36, what did you do next? 17 A: At 1:21 I spoke to the Coroner, Dr. 18 Perkin. 19 Q: Yes...? 20 A: I gave him a brief explanation as to 21 what I knew of gunfight. 22 Q: And what do you recall telling him? 23 A: I don't -- I don't recall what I told 24 him. 25 Q: And do you recall today what you knew
1611 about what you put the gunfight -- described as the 2 gunfight? 3 A: I think that the only thing I knew at 4 that time was what I had heard over the radio, was that 5 the ERT team had been engaged and there was -- there had 6 been gunfire and obviously someone had been shot; that's 7 -- that's all I remember knowing. 8 Q: So what you remember was what you had 9 heard on the radio when you were at the Forest 10 Detachment? 11 A: Right, that's right. 12 Q: Then what did you do? 13 A: I then again: 14 "At 1:50 spoke to Assistant Crown Diane 15 Foster." 16 Q: What about 1:25? 17 A: Oh, sorry: 18 "Asked PC Murphy into room with 19 coroner." 20 Q: So the coroner was there in person? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: "And at 1:50 spoke to Assistant Crown 24 Diane Foster who advises to hold onto 25 people in custody."
1621 Q: And do you have anymore recollection 2 of this call with Assistant Crown Diane Foster, other 3 than this note? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Who asked you to call her? 6 A: I don't -- I don't remember if I was 7 directed to do that. I want to say that I was, but I -- 8 I don't recall. 9 Q: And why were you calling her? 10 A: To be sure that we were still on 11 legal footing. I should say that in -- in my opinion at 12 least, in many ways the OPP differs from municipal police 13 departments in this -- this area right here, is that we 14 routinely call and confer with the Crown Attorney before 15 we do things, and as we do things, to make sure that 16 they're okay with it. 17 What's been told to me over the years is 18 that the Crown Attorney is the chief law enforcement 19 officer for the area and that there's -- there's little 20 purpose in going off and doing things that they don't 21 support, because in the end they're the ones that have to 22 speak to it in court. 23 And so this phone call could have been 24 along the lines of keeping her apprised and just to make 25 sure that we were on track; that everything was okay.
1631 Q: Okay. And the advice that you 2 received is as notice -- noted here at 1:50: 3 "Spoke to Assistant Crown Diane Foster 4 who advises to hold onto people in 5 custody?" 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And do you have any recollection of 8 what information you provided to the Assistant Crown 9 Attorney about the people you had in custody? 10 A: I can't recall specifically what I 11 told her, but I -- I 'm sure that I would have told her 12 that there -- there had been an altercation involving 13 firearms, that there were shots fired, that someone had 14 been -- had been shot and that they had been transported 15 to the hospital by car and that we knew at some point 16 that a car had been involved in this altercation with the 17 police. 18 And I guess then in -- in her mind, as it 19 was in my mine, it seemed only reasonable and prudent 20 then that there was a good likelihood that the people in 21 that car had been involved in that and therefore may well 22 be witnesses. 23 Q: And why do say that the persons in 24 the car might well have been involved in it? 25 A: Well, frankly, because I wasn't
1641 there, I didn't know. I didn't know who was in the car. 2 Q: And then you said, Might very well be 3 witnesses? 4 A: Could -- 5 Q: You said that? 6 A: Could be, yeah. 7 Q: But people aren't arrested for being 8 witnesses are they? 9 A: People under arrest are -- sometimes 10 end up being accused and sometimes end up being released. 11 Q: But you said, Witnesses, Might be 12 witnesses. 13 A: Sure. 14 Q: I'm just trying to understand -- 15 A: I know, I understand that, too. I'm 16 -- I'm -- maybe I'm not doing a very good job of -- of 17 describing what it was that I was thinking. But at any 18 rate, that -- that, I think, is the gist of what I had 19 told Diane Foster. 20 Q: But in any event, the message you got 21 was to hold the people in custody? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And what did you do with that 24 message? 25 A: I have no note of what I did with
1651 that message. I'm -- I assume that I passed it on to a 2 supervisor, whoever that may have been. 3 Q: And was Richardson still there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Was he a supervisor for you? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Were there any other supervisors -- 8 of your supervisors there at this point, one o'clock on 9 the -- 10 A: Not yet, I don't leave -- 11 Q: -- almost two o'clock -- 12 A: No, not yet. 13 Q: That probably is a good time to break 14 for lunch. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 We'll break for lunch. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 18 adjourned until 1:22. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 12:22 p.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 1:23 p.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed, please be seated. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you.
1661 Commissioner, I know this won't get out but just for the 2 pur -- benefit of My Friends, the internet's down and 3 we're trying to work at getting it restored. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is the 5 webcast off for -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: When the internet is 7 down, yes, the webcast is down. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Webcast is 9 down too. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Now, before lunch we were discussing 13 you were at the Strathroy Hospital; and we're up to page 14 37. 15 And at 02:05 hours you had a discussion 16 with Mr. Spike George; is that correct? 17 A: That's what my notes say, yes. 18 Q: And do you have any recollection of 19 that meeting? 20 A: I remember speaking to him. I 21 remember speaking to him, yes. 22 Q: And what do you remember? 23 A: I -- I don't recall the conversation 24 even in the vaguest of terms; just know that I spoke with 25 him.
1671 Q: And what do your notes say? Could 2 you read your notes, please? 3 A: Yes. 4 "Had conversation with Spike George, 5 with three (3) other males, one whom he 6 introduced as Anthony O'Brien's 7 brother. They asked to see Dudley's 8 remains, the body had been -- was gone 9 for x-rays. Brother's name is Reg 10 George. Spike [and then in brackets] 11 (Ron George, father Bob). I advised 12 Reg and Spike they could view body as 13 soon as it came back from x-ray." 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And then: 16 "At 2:36 there was a briefing. 17 Detective Inspector Goodall had arrived 18 and assumed command of the situation 19 there." 20 Q: And the -- with respect to the 21 discussion with Ron George -- Ron George and Spike George 22 are the same person? 23 A: Yes, they are. 24 Q: Do you recall anything beyond what's 25 in your notes?
1681 A: No. 2 Q: And do you recall with -- while you 3 were there, whether Ron George and Dudley's brother, Reg, 4 were able to see the body? 5 A: I think that they were, yes. 6 Q: And the briefing at 02:36 hours on 7 the morning of September the 7th with Inspector Goodall, 8 and there's a number of other officers identified here, 9 what was that about? 10 A: I don't -- I don't remember 11 specifically. Frankly, at this point, my mind was still 12 spinning. I think at that time the inspector was letting 13 people know what their tasks would be from this point on. 14 There's a number of sergeants that are 15 there. And I think, as things went at that time, Trevor 16 Richardson had to leave, he had some kind of a funeral or 17 something to go to the next day. 18 And Randy Parent, Detective Sergeant Randy 19 Parent ended up being the guy that I -- that I would have 20 been dealing with. 21 Q: And anything else? 22 A: That's all I remember of it. 23 Q: And then there's a note: 24 "10-7, 2:46 to Forest." 25 A: Right.
1691 Q: "Brief Detective Sergeant Wright at 2 Detachment. Awaiting assignments." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And does the reference "2:46" refer 5 to the time you arrived in Forest? I take it in this 6 context the time you left Forest -- 7 A: Time we -- yeah, the time we left 8 Strathroy. 9 Q: And you say the time we left 10 Strathroy, who did you leave Strathroy with? 11 A: In all likelihood, George Speck, but 12 I don't recall. 13 Q: As part of Exhibit P-1122, and 14 there's a copy in front of you, just on the left hand -- 15 up at the left hand side, P-1122, there are two (2) 16 transcripts. 17 Do you see that? There's -- 18 A: Oh, yes. 19 Q: -- P-1122, then P-1063? 1122 is a 20 conversation between Mark Wright and Bob Goodall at 3:12 21 hours in the morning of September the 7th, and a third of 22 the way down the first page, Inspector Goodall tells Mark 23 Wright: 24 "What I've done is I've dispatched 25 George and Dewey back."
1701 And you're -- were referred to as Dewey? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And George, it's fair to assume, was 4 George Speck? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And on your way back, were you 7 stopped by -- go through -- did you go through any 8 checkpoints on your way back? 9 A: Not that I can recall, no. 10 Q: Not that you recall? And then what - 11 - you were waiting assignments, then there's a note, page 12 38: 13 "Spoke to Detective Sergeant C. 14 Medhurst (sic), who request info for 15 general..." 16 A: Yeah, that's Steve Smethurst. 17 Q: Smethurst. Can you read that note 18 for us, please? 19 A: "Spoke to Detective Sergeant Steve 20 Smethurst who requested info for 21 general warrant." 22 Q: And then...? 23 A: "PC Speck and myself gathered this 24 information to send to him." 25 Q: And then:
1711 "Contacted Detective Sergeant 2 Hudson..." 3 A: "...at home and called him in." 4 Q: And so do you know, what was the 5 warrant that he was looking to? 6 A: I have no idea. 7 Q: Then at page -- there's a transcript 8 of a call between Tony Parkin and Mark Wright at 4:31 9 hours on the morning of -- and on the morning of 10 September 7th. It's marked Exhibit P-1063. 11 And Mark Wright is reporting to Inspector 12 -- Superintendent Park what happened. And you'll see on 13 page 3, there's a reference at the top of page 3 to 14 Nicholas Cottrelle. And then Mark Wright said: 15 "But he's going to be just fine; right 16 Dewey? 17 Yep, he's going to be just fine." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And do you recall being with Mark 20 Wright when he had this call with Superintendent Parkin? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And it may be that -- I'm going to 23 play this call, Commissioner. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1721 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's the wrong one. 2 Excuse me, Commissioner. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 [GH = Sergeant Gary Hamilton, Grand Bend Police] 7 [MW = Acting Detective Staff Sergeant Mark Wright] 8 [AP = Superintendent Anthony "Tony" Parkin (retired)] 9 10 MW: ...thin guy... 11 GH: Huh? 12 MW: Big tall guy. 13 GH: Oh, I know Tony. Known him a long - Okay, 14 he'll be at 42-20. Hold on here. 15 MW: Won't Charlie be surprised when he walks 16 into Grand Bend? 17 AP: Superintendent Parkin. 18 MW: Hi sir, its Mark. 19 AP: Yeah! 20 MW: Got those answers for ya. 21 AP: Great! 22 MW: Okay. Ready? 23 AP: Yes I am. 24 MW: Vehicles, how'd they get - where they go 25 after the shooting?
1731 AP: Mmhmm? 2 MW: They went back into the Park. 3 AP: Okay. 4 MW: Okay. Dead, is Anthony O'Brien George. 5 AP: Okay. Dead. 6 MW: Yes. 7 AP: Anthony. 8 MW: Yeah. O'Brien. 9 AP: O'Brien. 10 MW: Yeah. George. 11 AP: Ahh - that's not Dudley George? 12 MW: Yes it is. 13 AP: Oh, it is? 14 MW: Yep. 15 AP: Oh, so "Dudley''s his nickname? 16 MW: Yup. 17 AP: Okay. 18 MW: Okay, in serious condition is Bernard 19 Cecil George. 20 AP: Bernard Cecil George. 21 MW: Being transferred to London hospital. I 22 don't know which one. 23 AP: Transferred to... 24 MW: [interrupting] Being transferred I would 25 say would be accurate because when our
1741 guys left, that was the information they 2 got but he hadn't actually been put in 3 anything and taken away when they left so- 4 AP: And he's serious? 5 MW: Serious. Would be accurate. 6 AP: Yup. 7 MW: The other guy is Nicholas Cottrelle. And 8 ah - I'm - he's described to me as ahh - 9 like a grazed - ahh - bullet to the lower 10 back. Looks like its grazed - both sides 11 of his back. I mean, on either side of his 12 spine you know? 13 AP: Yeah. 14 MW: But he's going to be just fine. Right 15 Dewey?- Yup. He's going to be just fine. 16 AP: Okay. Good. Do we have ages? 17 MW: Do we have ages? No. 18 AP: Okay. 19 MW: Not at this time. They're all adults. We 20 can tell - to say that, right, Nicholas? 21 No? 22 Dew: No. Cottrelle is a - is a young offender. 23 MW: Cottrelle is a... 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED)
1751 2 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 3 Q: That's your voice in the background? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 7 8 MW: ...young offender. 9 AP: Y.O. eh? 10 MW: Young person. 11 AP: Okay. Ummm- all right. So... 12 MW: 'kay... 13 AP: The vehicles leave. Now - 14 MW: I've got some more information if you want 15 it. 16 AP: Okay. Go ahead. 17 MW: Okay. Nicholas Cottrelle got to the 18 hospital via Forest District Ambulance. 19 AP: Okay. 20 MW: Bernard George got there via St. John's 21 ambulance. 22 AP: Yeah. 23 MW: And Anth - Dudley - got there by a white 24 car. 25 AP: White car.
1761 MW: Yeah, now. At the - in the white car when 2 it showed up at Strathroy Hospital, there 3 were four people in it. 4 AP: Yeah. 5 MW: Dudley. A guy by the name of James George, 6 he's a Y.O. - fourteen years. 7 AP: Yeah. 8 MW: And Kenny - and - sorry - Perry and 9 Caroline George, who are brother and 10 sister of Dudley. 11 AP: [whispered] Oh, Jesus. [long sigh] Yeah. 12 MW: Now James George, age fourteen, is charged 13 with mischief - 14 ??: Arrested. 15 MW: Arrested for mischief - pardon me. 16 AP: Yeah. 17 MW: And the other two are under arrest for 18 attempt murder. 19 AP: Do they think that they were in the car 20 when the shooting took place? 21 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. But don't hold your 22 breath for those charges ever sticking. 23 AP: Okay 24 MW: ...but that's the word hanging round. 25 AP: You got the vehicle.
1771 MW: We got the vehicle. 2 AP: Okay. Ahhh - All right. Now - so who - 3 MW: Who? 4 AP: ...was the individual that's being 5 transferred to London with the head 6 trauma? 7 MW: Bernard Cecil George. 8 AP: Okay. So he was - he was not in the 9 vehicle. He was - ours. 10 MW: He was ours. Yeah. He's got injury to his 11 head consistent with blunt instrument. 12 That's not from a doctor, that's from my 13 detective that was down there. Right 14 Dewey? 15 Dew: That's right. 16 MW: Yeah... 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And he asked you the question: 22 "Right, Dewey?" 23 And do you hear yourself in the 24 background: 25 "That's right?"
1781 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you advised him that you thought 3 the wounds were consistent with being hit with a blunt 4 instrument? 5 A: Apparently so, yes. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 8 9 MW: ...Front and back. 10 AP: [inaudible]... on the bus? 11 MW: Well. Maybe the bus, maybe while he was 12 under - being placed under arrest - who 13 knows. 14 AP: Okay. All right. So then - our officers 15 would have loaded him into the St. John's 16 ambulance? 17 MW: Yeah. 18 AP: Okay. Nicholas Cottrelle. He goes in 19 Forest ambulance. 20 MW: Yeah. And George disappears. 21 AP: [interrupting] But he left the scene in 22 the vehicle with Anthony George. 23 MW: Well we don't know - well - one - one - 24 well Cottrelle could have been in the bus 25 too. 'Cause he was shot - but he could
1791 have been in the bus too. Like I don't 2 know who they're trying - 3 ??: [interrupting] He may have been in the 4 bus. 5 Yeah. [may be Mark Dew] 6 [Dew?]: The story I overheard... 7 MW: Hang on a sec. 8 [Dew?]: The story I overhead was he was standing 9 beside the car, when he was shot - and 10 then he sat down on the passenger side of 11 the car but you know that's... 12 ??: So the car stopped? 13 ??: ...bullshit... 14 MW: Yeah... 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And do you recognize that voice; that 20 was you? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And where did you overhear the story 23 that the was standing beside the car when he was shot and 24 then he sat down in the passenger side of the car. Do 25 you know that's...
1801 A: I -- I have no idea. 2 Q: Did you hear that at the hospital? 3 A: I may have. I -- I don't really 4 recall. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONTINUED) 7 8 MW: Yeah, I - He could have been - he could 9 have been in the car. Unknown if he was in 10 the car or in the bus. I think that's the 11 most accurate description. 12 AP: Okay - Nicholas Cottrelle? 13 MW: Yeah. 14 AP: Okay. All right. 15 MW: Yeah. I have Inspector Carson here. 16 AP: Yeah. 17 ??: You had! 18 MW: I- [laughs] I had? Shit! He's made a liar 19 out of me again. He's busy bebopping 20 around here. ... but do you want me to 21 go track him down? It won't be hard and 22 you can go over this again with him 23 because he was at the TOC - as the 24 Incident Command and so he - 25 AP: What - what - what time did it take place?
1811 MW: Around elevenish is what we can best 2 figure. 3 AP: Best - or - best you can figure is around 4 eleven? 5 MW: [interrupting] Yeah. Around eleven 6 o'clock. 7 AP: Okay. Oh yeah, it was totally dark in 8 there? 9 MW: Yeah. 10 AP: Any overhead lighting in there? 11 MW: Where? 12 AP: Where - where that Park ground... 13 MW: [interrupting] No! No overhead lighting. 14 Not in that place. Not that I recall sir. 15 AP: Okay. Very dark. 16 MW: Yeah. 17 AP: Okay. So it took place around eleven 18 o'clock. 19 MW: Yeah. 20 AP: All right. - ahh - no, I don't - we'll 21 leave it at that for now. If you get an 22 opportunity to talk to John about it - If 23 there's something really different from - 24 that he - about how it took place, get 25 back to me, other than that, I don't want
1821 to keep bugging you with this stuff. 2 MW: Okay. 3 AP: Okay? 4 MW: Okay Boss. 5 AP: All right. 6 MW: Okay. We'll be here! 7 AP: Yeah. Okay. 8 MW: I - I don't know how much longer I'll be 9 here, 'cause I got to get ready - I got to 10 get ready for court. 11 AP: Yeah. 12 MW: But ahh - Andre Clelland is taking my 13 place up here. 14 AP: Andre? 15 MW: Clelland. C-L-E-L-L-A-N-D. 16 AP: C-L-E- L-L-A-N-D? 17 MW: Yeah. 18 AP: And he's a sergeant? 19 MW: No. He's a Detective-Constable. 20 AP: A Detective Constable. Okay. 21 MW: Okay? 22 AP: Yup! 23 MW: So be gentle. 24 AP: Okay. 25 MW: Okay? [laughs]
1831 AP: Thanks. 2 MW: Bye. 3 4 End of Conversation 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE CONCLUDED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And on the -- the morning of the 6th, 10 at 6:50, you have this -- you have a meeting with 11 Inspector Goodall? 12 A: At 6:50 I'm with Detective Inspector 13 Goodall and we attended at Staff Sergeant Lacroix's 14 residence. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And he tells us that he remembers one 17 male in four (4) door -- sorry: 18 "He remembers one male in white four 19 (4) door with handgun, believes two (2) 20 in bus." 21 Q: And did -- how long did you spend 22 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix at that point? 23 A: Not long, maybe ten (10) minutes. 24 Q: And where he was located. 25 A: At his residence.
1841 Q: And where is that? 2 A: In Petrolia. 3 Q: And then what did you do for the 4 balance of the 7th? 5 A: I spent the morning with Detective 6 Inspector Goodall. 7 Q: And what role were you to play? 8 A: "It still wasn't made abundantly 9 clear to me to -- a little bit later in 10 the morning, and then I was -- I was 11 assigned to assist Detective Inspector 12 Goodall speaking to involve ERT and TRU 13 members." 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: "I attended at bunkhouse in Pinery to 16 locate TRU members. Negative results. 17 Attended at Pinedale Motel, Grand Bend. 18 Detective Inspector has conversation 19 with Norm Peel." 20 Then the next note is: 21 "Spoke with members of ERT teams. 22 Unable to ascertain numbers of people 23 in bus or confirm story on rifle from 24 bus. 25 At 12:39 spoke to P/C Jacklin at
1851 Detachment. Remembers two (2) for sure 2 in bus. Unsure if more. 3 [and] At 14:00 off duty." 4 Q: And then the latter part of September 5 and beyond you were involved in the investigations with 6 respect to the charges that arose out of this incident? 7 A: I was -- I was tasked to be part of 8 an investigation that -- an investigation which was, at 9 the time, called the attempt murder of members of the OPP 10 which involved a car and the bus. 11 And the other purpose of that 12 investigation was para -- to do a parallel investigation 13 with the SIU investigation so that the Commissioner of 14 the OPP could be kept abreast of what was going on. 15 Q: And as part of the work that you did, 16 you seized the rifles of the -- obtained the rifle -- the 17 weapons of the police officers involved? 18 A: I didn't seize them. What I did is 19 turn them over to the SIU investigator. 20 Q: Somebody else had picked them up and 21 you turned them over to Stan Thompson? 22 A: That's correct. Yeah. 23 Q: And I understand that you also 24 attended on September 18 and 19 in the sandy parking lot 25 as part of the investigation that took place in the sandy
1861 parking lot? 2 A: For the search of the scene? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that correct? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And during the period of time that 8 you were on duty on September 5th and 6th, where did you 9 stay, Constable Dew? Did you go home, did you stay in a 10 motel, did you stay at the Pinery? 11 A: I went home. 12 Q: And where's your home, sir, Petrolia? 13 A: At that time was in Wyoming. 14 Q: Wyoming? And... 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Did you purchase a mug or a t-shirt? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And were you aware that mugs and t- 21 shirts had been produced? 22 A: Eventually, yes. 23 Q: Eventually? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And when you say "eventually" how did
1871 you come to -- 2 A: I -- I can't say what day it was but 3 I -- I think it was after they were available for sale. 4 Q: And did you have any involvement in 5 the investigation with respect to the mugs and t-shirts? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And did you stay on the 4th or the 8 5th, or after the 4th or the 5th at -- at the Pinery 9 Provincial Park? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And did you see a beer can -- did you 12 attend at the Pinery, from time to time? 13 A: Not in the -- not in the Pinery Park, 14 no. 15 Q: No? So did you see a beer can with 16 an arrow in it? 17 A: No. I'm -- I'm sorry I shouldn't say 18 that, I did attend at the Pinery Park from time to time 19 to get firewood -- 20 Q: Is that -- 21 A: -- and so on, but that was -- 22 Q: -- when you were a camper? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: But did you see a beer can in the 25 Pinery?
1881 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: Afterwards? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Or -- if she would wait, I'm getting 5 there. 6 And did you observe at any time at the 7 Pinery a police cruiser with an arrow stuck on the side? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And a target? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Or any cartoons at the Pinery? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And on the 5th and the 6th, did you 14 work with Constables Whitehead and Dyke? 15 A: I don't believe I ever worked with 16 Whitehead and Dyke. 17 Q: Okay. And did you have any 18 involvement in their investigation? 19 A: No. 20 Q: In the investigation relating to 21 them? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Thank you. Is -- before I close, is 24 there anything else you wish to add? 25 A: I can't think if anything.
1891 Q: And I wish to thank you on behalf of 2 the Commission for coming, Constable Dew, and testifying. 3 And some of My Friends will have some questions for you. 4 A: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, cross- 6 examination; who has questions for this Officer? 7 Ms. Tuck-Jackson, how long might you be? 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Fifteen (15) to 9 twenty (20) minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 11 to twenty (20) minutes. 12 And Mr. Alexander...? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Tuck-Jackson, 14 fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 16 Alexander...? 17 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Fifteen (15) to 18 thirty (30) minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 20 Rosenthal...? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An hour to an hour 22 and a half, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 24 Scullion...? 25 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Reserve an hour,
1901 might be less. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And how long 3 might -- 4 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Fifteen (15) to 5 thirty (30) minutes I'll be -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 7 Roy...? 8 MR. JULIAN ROY: Between forty-five (45) 9 minutes and an hour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How does 11 that add up? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Four (4) to five and a 16 half (5 1/2) hours, approximately. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 21 Tuck-Jackson? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon,
1911 Mr. Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 3 afternoon. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. TUCK-JACKSON: 6 Q: And good afternoon, Constable Dew. 7 My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and as you already know I 8 -- I'm one (1) of the counsel for the OPP. 9 And I'd like to begin, if I can, with the 10 direction that you received, at around 23:25 on the night 11 of September the 6th, to head off to Strathroy Hospital 12 in the company of George Speck. 13 And I can tell you, sir, that we've heard 14 from Mark Wright that indeed he did detail you and 15 Officer Speck to go to Strathroy Hospital in relation to 16 the individual being transported by ambulance, who was 17 being picked up at the main gate of the Base. 18 And we've also heard, sir, that you were 19 specifically told to effect an arrest for attempt murder. 20 And we've heard that he provided certain information 21 about the grounds to support the making of that arrest. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: I can also tell you, sir, that we've 24 heard from George Speck, and he also recalls that Mark 25 Wright detailed yourself and him to attend the hospital
1921 to effect an arrest in the nature of attempt murder, and 2 that George Speck told us about the information he 3 understood, which again supported, in his mind, the 4 effecting of an arrest. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: I can also tell you, sir, that I 7 anticipate we're going to hear from Trevor Richardson 8 that, once again, Mark Rest -- or Mark Wright, excuse me, 9 detailed yourself and Officer Speck to effect an arrest 10 of attempted murder in relation to the individual being 11 transported in the ambulance. 12 So, at this point, do you have any 13 recollection, sir, of being specifically told to effect 14 an arrest for attempt murder in relation to the 15 individual in that ambulance? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. I gather, sir, however, 18 that you're not in a position to dispute, at this point, 19 that indeed occurred? 20 A: No, absolutely not. I just don't 21 recall. 22 Q: That's completely fair. All right. 23 And again, along the same lines, sir, I gather at this 24 point you have no recollection of any articulation of 25 grounds to support that arrest, as conveyed by Mark
1931 Wright at that time, in other words -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- when you were being detailed to 4 head over and effect the arrest? 5 A: That's right, I don't -- I don't 6 remember that. 7 Q: And again, I gather just to -- to 8 finish off the loop, you're not in a position to dispute 9 that, indeed, those grounds were articulated to you? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Fair enough, okay. You've also told 12 us today, sir, that not that long following your arrival 13 at the hospital you had a conversation with Trevor 14 Richardson. 15 And during that conversation he told you 16 that in relation to the individuals arriving in the white 17 car, they, too, were to be arrested for attempt murder? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now do you have any recollection, at 20 this time, as to grounds, as conveyed by Trevor 21 Richardson, which would support that arrest for attempt 22 murder? 23 A: Not specifically, no, I don't. 24 Q: All right. At some point, did you 25 have an understanding, and when I say "at some point" I
1941 don't mean some point much later on, but -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- at some point within the hour of 4 when you first learned from Trevor Richardson that these 5 individuals were to be arrested, are you receiving 6 information and -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- and an understanding of the 9 grounds to effect that arrest? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And what is the 12 information that you're receiving? 13 A: As I recall it, the information was, 14 and part of it is, what I can recall from hearing the 15 radio transmissions at Forest Detachment, was that -- 16 Q: And that's before your departure? 17 A: That's before our departure, that 18 there had been an exchange of gunfire. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: And then I learned that there was 21 someone who had been injured and was on their way to the 22 hospital. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: So with that, in my mind, it's 25 reasonable and prudent to assume that if someone is on
1951 their way to the hospital with a gunshot wound, and the 2 time is so close to that incident as to likely be part of 3 it, that the people in that car likely had something to 4 do with that skirmish with the police. 5 Q: Okay. And again, you can't assist us 6 at this time because you -- you don't have any 7 recollection, but it may also be that part of your 8 putting that -- those pieces together, may in part have 9 been because of something Mark Wright said to you, even 10 before you left for the hospital. 11 A: That could well be and I wish, to 12 this date, that I could remember that, but I just don't. 13 Q: I understand. All right. You also 14 told us, and we see a reference to it in your notes, that 15 the white car was to be towed and secured. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I trust, sir, that you had an 18 understanding, at the point that you made that entry in 19 your notes, that you understood that that vehicle could 20 very well be a source of evidence in relation to this 21 exchange of gunfire, and that was the reason why it was 22 being secured and towed away? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: All right. And again, sir, that we 25 see that entry in your notes is -- is at 23:48 in
1961 relation to the car? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So it's face -- it's fair to assume, 4 sir, that by at least 23:48 you had an understanding that 5 that car could very well have been involved in the 6 incident? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: In the exchange of gunfire with the 9 police? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. I want to go back, if I 12 may, about the legal advice that you received, both on 13 the evening of the 6th and the early morning hours of the 14 7th. And that was the legal advice that you received 15 from Diane Foster. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And just to be clear, Diane Foster, 18 at that point, I don't know whether she -- she still does 19 this, but at that point she was an Assistant Crown 20 Attorney working out of Sarnia? 21 A: That's correct. She's now the Crown. 22 Q: She's now the Crown. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. All right. You told us, 25 sir, in general terms, the circumstances under which you
1971 would be conferring with a prosecutor. And I gather, 2 from what you're telling us then, this was not the first 3 time that you'd had an opportunity to speak with Diane 4 Foster, to get her view of the legality of a particular 5 situation? 6 A: Not at all. 7 Q: All right. And is it fair to say, 8 sir, that by the evening of September the 6th, to the 9 early morning hours of September the 7th, that you had 10 come to trust the soundness of opinions that she had 11 given you? 12 A: Absolutely. 13 Q: All right. We also see the entry in 14 your notes at 01:50, so ten to 2:00 in the morning, where 15 you have a conversation with her regarding the legality 16 of the arrest for attempt murder. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And you told us that at this point 19 you're not entirely sure how it came to be that -- that 20 you made that phone call. 21 A: Yes. I -- I can't recall if I was 22 instructed to make that phone call? I think that I was 23 but I can't -- I can't say for sure. 24 Q: Let me see if I can help your memory. 25 A: Okay.
1981 Q: We have some evidence before the 2 Commission that Mark Wright spoke with Randy Parent, and 3 that Mark Wright tasked Randy Parent to make a phone call 4 to the Crown to run by her, as to double check, in 5 effect, the legality of the arrests, and that -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- Randy Parent, in turn, delegated 8 that task to you. 9 Does that assist you in one way or the 10 other? 11 A: Well it certainly makes sense, yeah. 12 Q: All right, fair enough. Now you also 13 told us today that during your telephone call with Diane 14 Foster, it logically follows that you would have provided 15 her some information as to what the reasonable and 16 probable grounds were, from the perspective of the 17 police, to effect those arrests. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And it's your recollection that 20 having received that information she certainly appeared 21 to agree with you that it was appropriate to have 22 effected those arrests? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And to maintain those people in 25 custody, at least for this point.
1991 A: That's right. 2 Q: And just to -- to be clear, your 3 understanding of those arrested in the car, they were 4 arrested for the offence of attempt murder. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Were they arrested because they could 7 be witnesses, or where they arrested because they were 8 suspects for the attempt murder? 9 A: They were arrested because they were 10 suspects in the attempt murder. 11 Q: Thank you, Officer, those are my 12 questions. Thank you for your time. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. 15 Mr. Alexander...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 18 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Dew. 19 A: Good afternoon. 20 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 21 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 22 several members of the George Family, including Sam 23 George who's sitting here beside me. 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: Excuse me. And I have a few areas I
2001 would like to canvas with you. The first thing I'd like 2 to start of with is the afternoon of September 4th, 3 around four o'clock in the afternoon. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: Now if I recall your evidence 6 correctly, you indicated that you were present when a 7 confrontation was occurring on the north end of Matheson 8 Drive, in the area of the lake. 9 Does that sound familiar? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now you also indicated that you 12 didn't see anybody -- you didn't see anybody putting -- 13 going towards the trunk, or opening the trunk, or 14 anything like that? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you recall seeing any weapons, 17 aside from those on the OPP officers, at that incident? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did anybody ever tell you of seeing 20 any firearms or other weapons, aside from those on the 21 OPP officers at that incident? 22 A: At that time, no. 23 Q: And -- but it would be potentially 24 very important to what you were doing at that time, as 25 well as your safety, to be aware of that, if that was
2011 occurring at that time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I'd like to move ahead to the evening 4 of September the 6th. And the area I'm going to be 5 focussing on is the evening around 8:00 -- eight o'clock 6 to about 8:40, specifically when you were dispatched 7 from, I believe it was the Forest Detachment, to go and 8 get information for -- get information from Constable 9 Poole, and you stopped at a checkpoint along the way. 10 Do you -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- recall that? I'm going to start 13 with the checkpoint. And do you recall giving evidence 14 that when you stopped at the checkpoint you were informed 15 that the women and children were leaving the Base because 16 something was going to happen tonight? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: I would like to explore that a little 19 bit further with you. Do you recall where it was, now 20 you've indicated that that was probably the checkpoint 21 opposite the Army Camp entrance; does that sound correct? 22 A: That's the way I remember it, yes. 23 Q: So that would be Checkpoint Delta; 24 does that sound right? 25 A: Okay. I wasn't familiar with the
2021 names of the checkpoints, but sure. 2 Q: I'll assist you. If you look in the 3 -- on the top corner of your map -- of your desk. 4 Mr. Commissioner you should have a copy as 5 well. 6 For the reference of My Friends, this is a 7 copy of the map that Mr. Millar circulated earlier, the 8 checkpoint map. 9 The version I'm looking at is the 10 September 6/7 1995 map. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it has not been -- this version 13 has not been made an exhibit. I believe the one that's 14 been made an exhibit is September 5 and 6. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: There's a reason why I'm referring to 17 the 6/7 map, which I'll get to in a second. 18 Just so you know, Constable Dew, this has 19 been prepared -- my understanding is this has been 20 prepared by the OPP to assist the Commission in -- at the 21 Inquiry for various purposes that were going on. 22 Now, to help provide a little bit more of 23 a reference, if you look at where the 'D' is, that's an - 24 - that appears to be an indication of where Checkpoint 25 Delta was.
2031 A: Right. 2 Q: So that would appear to be the 3 checkpoint that you stopped at. 4 A: Yeah, that looks like the right area. 5 Q: Now, do you remember what was told to 6 you in terms of specifics of when the women and children 7 were leaving? 8 Were you told when they were leaving? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Or when they had left? 11 A: No. 12 Q: So it could have been any time frame 13 in terms of -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- when they left. Were you told 16 anything in terms of the number of people who left? 17 A: No. And, you know, in -- in response 18 to your first question there, it seems to me that this 19 was ongoing, that the -- the leaving of the women and the 20 children had -- had already begun or was in the process 21 of happening. 22 However, I did not observe any of that. I 23 think, to be fair, that's what my recollection was. 24 Q: No, that's fair enough. I think your 25 testimony has been that you were informed this by the ERT
2041 members. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And what I'm trying to get at is get 4 at what your information is in terms of what do you 5 remember you being told -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- in terms of the information about 8 the women and children leaving. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: So you don't have it -- you don't 11 have any idea of the timeframe? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And you don't have any idea of the 14 number of people who were leaving and going back and 15 forth? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And you don't have any idea who told 18 you, who might have told you that the women and children 19 were leaving? 20 A: I don't remember who the officer or 21 officers were that I spoke to, no. 22 Q: Okay. Now this is the reason why I 23 gave you this version of the map. If you look in -- Mr. 24 Commissioner, I'd suggest it might be appropriate to make 25 this an exhibit at this point, because I'm going to refer
2051 to the list of -- the list of names on the bottom right 2 corner. 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: A moment's 4 indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I have 9 no objection to this being marked as an exhibit. As I 10 indicated to all of My Friends when I distributed this, 11 this was provided as a guide to help everyone, it's not - 12 - it and of itself is not evidence; we have to hear from 13 the officers, as we have. 14 But it was provided by the OPP to the 15 Commission and I provided it to the parties to help as a 16 guide. And on that basis I have no objection to it being 17 marked as an exhibit. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I think it's a very 20 useful guide. I think it will assist us greatly in terms 21 of getting through this rather quickly, actually, so. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. 23 THE REGISTRAR: That's the September 6th 24 to 7th? 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yes, the September
2061 6th to 7th map. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-1284, Your Honour. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1284: Map of Ipperwash Checkpoints, 5 September 6-7, 1995. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 8 Q: Now, keeping in mind that this is a 9 guide, there is a list of names under 'D', and it 10 indicates the people who were on the night shift from 11 19:30 to 7:30 in the morning. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: And a list of names with their badge 14 numbers. 15 Does this assist you in terms of trying to 16 determine in terms of who may have told you that the 17 women and children were leaving that evening? 18 A: I can tell you that at that time I 19 probably do -- I knew personally four (4) or five (5) of 20 those officers, but it still doesn't -- it doesn't assist 21 me with who I spoke to. 22 Q: Okay. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
2071 Q: What I'm going to hand up to you is a 2 couple of documents that hopefully -- we'll see if it 3 prompts your memory a little bit more. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: You should have two (2) documents in 8 front of you; one (1) is the statement and attached notes 9 of J. M. Dellemonache. I apologize if I mispronounce the 10 name. 11 A: Dellemonache. 12 Q: Dellemonache? Thank you. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Inquiry Document Number 2003442. And 15 similarly there's a statement of -- statement and 16 attached notes for Rick Grigg -- Rick Grigg, Inquiry 17 Document Number 2004019. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Do you know these two (2) officers? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You do know these two (2) officers? 22 Now, there are other statements and notes of the officers 23 who are listed here, but they don't -- in the interest of 24 time I'm not going to take you to all of the notes 25 because they don't indicate any comments about the -- the
2081 women and children leaving; these are the two (2) 2 officers who do. 3 So in the interest of time I'm not going 4 to take you to the rest of them because they just -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: -- don't say anything on that point. 7 But I want to take you to these two (2), specifically. 8 If you look at the -- the statement of J. 9 M. Dellemonache at the second page, the second paragraph 10 down. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: It says: 13 "On the 6th of September, 1995 I was 14 assigned to Checkpoint 'D'. While at 15 this location I received information 16 that the women and children were being 17 removed from the Park." 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And I -- when I looked through the 20 notes for the similar area under September 6th, which is 21 about two (2) pages in from the back, or three (3) pages 22 in from the back, I didn't see any notes, any notation of 23 it -- any mention of the women and children at that 24 point. 25 Similarly, when I look at -- when you look
2091 at the statement of Rick Grigg, Inquiry Document 2004019, 2 the second page, right at the end of the second 3 paragraph: 4 "During the evening I checked a number 5 of vehicles operated by the First 6 Nation females entering and leaving the 7 Army Camp. 8 During conversation they said that the 9 reason they attended -- they had 10 attended was to remove the children, 11 which they did." 12 And there appears to be a similar notation 13 in the timeframe -- in the -- in -- sorry. There appears 14 to be a similar notation in the police notes that are 15 attached to this as well. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: Do these two (2) statements in the 18 notes assist you, in any way, in terms of who may have 19 had told you that the women and children were leaving? 20 A: No, I'm sor -- I'm sorry, they don't. 21 Q: They don't. 22 A: No. 23 Q: The one thing that's missing from 24 these notes, that the statement and the notes though, is 25 there's no mention of something's going to happen this
2101 evening or words to that effect. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Does that change your evidence in any 4 way? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Your evidence regarding that? 7 A: No. 8 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, I 9 -- my understanding from the witness list is that these 10 two (2) officers are not going to be called. So I'm 11 wondering if it's appropriate to make these two (2) -- 12 these two (2) documents the next exhibit? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have no objection to 14 the exhibits. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Statement of P/C 16 Dellemonache, P-1285. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1285: Document Number 2003442. 19 Statement of J.M. 20 Dellemonache, OPP Constable, 21 number 7761. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: Statement of Rick Grigg, 24 P-1286. 25
2111 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1286: Document Number 2004019. 2 Statement of Rich Grigg, OPP 3 Constable, number 5699. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 6 Q: Now there's one other aspect of your 7 -- of that issue when you first got to the checkpoint 8 that I'm interested in. And if you could turn to Tab 17, 9 which is Inquiry Document Number 2000603. And I missed 10 the exhibit number for this, unfortunately. 11 I wonder if Mr. Millar can help me out. 12 Tab 17? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Tab 17, that's P-1163 14 -- 1136. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 17 Q: Which I'm informed is Exhibit P-1136. 18 And in my copy, at the bottom of the first page, it says: 19 "DEW: And we didn't think that was 20 appropriate for the airway, so I don't 21 know how you'd like to handle it from 22 there, but." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: I was going to ask you, why did you 25 not think it was appropriate for the airway? What were
2121 you concerned about? 2 A: I don't -- I don't know that it was 3 my concern necessarily. It was the ERT guys hadn't 4 called it in because they didn't feel it should go over 5 the radio. That's why they stopped me. 6 Q: Sorry -- 7 A: So that's why -- I'm assuming that's 8 why they told me, because they had no other way to 9 communicate this information other than by radio. 10 Q: So it may have been that they were 11 concerned that others may have been listening into the 12 transmissions? 13 A: It could be. 14 Q: Including the occupiers? 15 A: Sure. 16 Q: Similarly, with the Gerald George -- 17 Gerald George information that you got subsequently -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- you indicated that you stopped at 20 a private citizen's to call back, rather than use your 21 radio. Was there a similar considerations in your mind 22 as to why -- why you used a telephone call instead of 23 using the radio, i.e., people could be listening in, 24 including the occupiers? 25 A: It could be. It could also be that,
2131 you know, I might get myself in trouble with the company 2 here, but I -- I'm not in the practice, routinely, of 3 turning my police radio on. 4 And as such I wouldn't have been logged in 5 to the -- the TAC, the radio program that they were 6 operating on. And it's, in my view, easier to carry on a 7 conversation on a telephone than it is over a police 8 radio. 9 I -- I want to say to you that I -- I 10 think it's because it's easier to use a phone and I 11 didn't have my radio on. 12 Q: But to be fair, you did go into a 13 private citizen's -- 14 A: Yes, I did, I went -- 15 Q: -- in order to do that -- 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: -- rather than using a checkpoint 18 radio or anything like that? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Okay. The other area I wanted to 21 nail down with you is just to make certain I've got the 22 timing right in terms of the Gerald George, what -- in 23 terms of the information that was conveyed. 24 I'm not going to go too much into this 25 because I anticipate My Friends are going to go into this
2141 with more detail with you. 2 Now, if I take you to Tab 18. And I 3 missed the exhibit number of this one as well, 4 unfortunately. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now it seems that this conversation 9 ended at 8:43 in the evening. If you turn to page -- the 10 last -- one of the second last pages there, it's one of 11 the last comments made by Graham. 12 Do you recall us going over that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And this information went 15 directly to the ERT leader, Rob Graham, correct, in the 16 command post? 17 A: Yeah, I -- yeah, I don't know if he 18 was the leader, but he was a sergeant in -- in ERT, yes. 19 Q: He was at least the one on the radio? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: In the command post? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: Now the timing I'm sort of looking at 24 is -- do you -- is, if you could turn to Tab 42. 25
2151 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And this is Inquiry Document Number 4 2004078. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it appears to be a Will State of 7 now-Detective Inspector Don Bell? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you know who Don Bell is? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: If you could turn to the -- the third 12 page, and there should be a heading, 06 September 1995. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And eight (8) bullet points from the 15 bottom. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: It starts: 18 "At 15:00 hours I continued the 19 intelligence function as per Maple." 20 You see that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then the next line: 23 "At 21:15 hours, I received source 24 information of unknown reliability from 25 Detective Constable Dew, Mark Dew. The
2161 CI advised you that the following 2 weapons were at CF -- CFB Ipperwash." 3 And then it recites what you told Rob 4 Graham in your phone call. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Now do you recall passing this 7 information directly on to Detective Inspector Don Bell? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So -- but either way, there appears 10 to be about a half hour difference between when the time 11 you called the information in, and the information seemed 12 to have gotten to Don Bell. 13 A: It would appear that way, yes. Yeah. 14 Q: The final area I would like to cover 15 with you is regarding your observations prior to the 16 event on September 6th, 1995 during the summer and the 17 fall of 1995, September of 1995. 18 You've talked about a couple observations 19 you had of Dudley George. 20 Do you recall that testimony? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And is it consistent in your 23 observations that when you interacted with Dudley, he 24 appeared to act and think as if he -- as if the land in 25 question was his land?
2171 A: Yes. 2 Q: And as far as you could see, he 3 considered you and the police to be trespassers, an 4 intruder on that land? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So it's possible that he may have 7 been defending his land, or he may have seen himself as 8 defending his land? 9 A: I can't really speak to what he was - 10 - what he was thinking, but all I can do is -- is say 11 that, in my mind, as a result of the things that he said 12 or that I heard him saying, that he certainly acted that 13 way, but -- 14 Q: And that was the impression -- 15 A: -- what he thought -- 16 Q: And that was the impression you had? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And also, as a police officer, you're 19 aware that the law recognizes the possibility of colour 20 of right in a trespass situation? 21 A: Sure. 22 Q: Given that Dudley George appeared to 23 think that, or you had the impression that he appeared to 24 have a right to -- let me start that again. 25 Given what you've said, in that Dudley --
2181 that your impression was that Dudley George appeared to 2 believe that he owned that land and that he was defending 3 that land; that was the impression you had. 4 Did you ever inquire of any of your 5 superiors, or of anyone else, whether the possibility of 6 colour of right had been properly looked into? 7 A: I don't recall asking any of my -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 9 minute, there's an objection to the question. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Hi. I'm just 14 wondering what particular piece of land we're talking 15 about right now. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 17 you're wondering about the -- 18 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: What piece of land 19 we're -- we're discussing right now. 20 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: It would be the 21 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 22 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Entirely? 23 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Yeah. 24 MR. ADAM GOODMAN: Okay. 25
2191 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Did you 4 understand the question? 5 THE WITNESS: I think I'm going to need 6 to hear it again. 7 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 9 ask the question again. 10 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'll cut the 11 preamble and cut straight to the question. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can use 13 that as a general rule, okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 16 Q: Did you ever inquire of any of your 17 superiors, or of anyone else, whether the possibility of 18 colour of right had been properly looked into? 19 A: I never asked anybody because it was 20 always clear in my mind. As far as I was concerned the 21 Provincial Park was the property of the Province of 22 Ontario and was being looked after by the Ministry of 23 Natural Resources. 24 And so I -- I guess I can equate it to the 25 story my wife often tells me, is that you can stand by a
2201 bus stop thinking that bus is going to take you to 2 Eaton's but if it doesn't take you to Eaton's, then I 3 guess you were wrong, right? 4 It doesn't matter how much you believe it; 5 if you're wrong, you're wrong. 6 My impression, my thought the whole time 7 was that the Provincial Park was the property of the 8 Province of Ontario. 9 Q: But you did testify earlier that when 10 they said it was their land, you understood them to think 11 that it was part of their land, in a sense it was part 12 of -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 14 you're in the area now of making an argument, Mr. 15 Alexander, I think you've -- 16 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: This was his 17 testimony, I'm just confirming -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 19 got that answer from him earlier. If you want to make 20 some argument from it, that's fine, but I think you got 21 that answer from him earlier. 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Thank you, 23 Constable Dew, I have no further questions. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I expect My Friends
2211 will be covering the other areas that are -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much. Thank you, Mr. Alexander. 4 Mr. Rosenthal...? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 afternoon, Mr. Rosenthal. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I want to show you, 13 sir, I'm going to be as expeditious as possible. I've 14 cut out all sorts of what I consider to be important 15 matters. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 17 understand. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm just down to 19 the bare bones, so. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And there 21 are lots of examiners, but you usually try to make a 22 reasonable estimate and you usually try to stick to it. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So let's 25 just try --
2221 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I think I have 2 made a reasonable estimate, and I will stick to it. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I shall begin. 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 8 A: Afternoon. 9 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm one 10 (1) of the counsel for some of the Stoney Point people 11 under the name Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 12 Now you told us that on the evening of 13 September 6th, 1995 you were frustrated by your lack of 14 understanding as to what you were doing, as to what your 15 role was at that point? 16 A: At the hospital, yes. 17 Q: At the hospital, yes. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you felt that it was a somewhat 20 chaotic situation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that was as opposed to your role 23 earlier as an undercover officer; that you understood and 24 felt comfortable with? 25 A: Yes.
2231 Q: Now looking back on it then, in your 2 view, should there have been greater direction given to 3 you as to what your role was at the hospital? 4 A: I think -- I think, to be fair to my 5 supervisors, there may well have been enough instruction 6 given. I -- I don't know how to -- how to put this into 7 words. 8 I like to say that I -- that what happened 9 to me was something short of coming unglued, but I was -- 10 I was very stressed and -- and I don't think I was coping 11 as well with the -- the scene, as it unfolded, as I would 12 hope that I would and -- and have in the past with other 13 scenarios. 14 Q: Perhaps, as we return to that moment 15 of time, we'll explore that little bit further. Let me 16 start at the beginning then, or more at the beginning. 17 In your role as an undercover officer you 18 observed Dudley George on several occasions, you told us? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you indicated that he stuck out 21 as a particularly outspoken person among the First 22 Nations people in the Park? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And even before the Park in the -- in 25 the course of the Army Camp occupation?
2241 A: Well -- 2 Q: Even before the Park was occupied on 3 September 4th -- 4 A: Oh, I see, during the summer months? 5 Q: -- he stuck out as a particularly -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- outspoken person? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And he sort of teased the officers a 10 lot, from time to time, isn't that fair, he had a sort of 11 teasing attitude, among other things. 12 A: I -- I don't know if that would be 13 fair or not because I'm not entirely convinced that he 14 knew who we were. 15 Q: But you observed him with other 16 officers who were in uniform, for example, who he -- he 17 knew were officers? 18 A: Oh, sure, sure. And the one (1) 19 occasion in particular that we talked about this morning 20 was with the -- the car stuck at the end of the beach, 21 and I -- I don't think that I would characterize that as 22 teasing; that was something different. 23 Q: You were aware of him doing things 24 like mooning officers earlier, and so on? 25 A: I'm aware of it, but I never saw it,
2251 yeah. 2 Q: No, you -- no, but in general the 3 officers were aware of him as somebody who -- who stood 4 out? 5 A: I -- I -- 6 Q: As far as your interaction with other 7 officers revealed? 8 A: My -- my interaction with other 9 officers was -- was largely confined to the folks that I 10 camped with, and I -- you know I honestly don't recall 11 other officers characterizing him that way. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, there was one 13 (1) other officer you told us you did interact with on 14 August 31st, I believe it was about 14:10, with Ken 15 Deane -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- you recall. I don't think your 18 notes say very much more than what you just said. 19 A: No they don't. They don't say much 20 more than that, that's right. 21 Q: And -- and evidently he was in 22 civilian clothes as he approached you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did he indicate that he was on 25 duty as he approached?
2261 A: No. 2 Q: Well was -- was he on duty or was he 3 just strolling through the Park, or what? 4 A: I'm not entirely sure but I can tell 5 you this, is that we did get visits, from time to time, 6 from members of the OPP in civilian attire because we 7 went to the grocery store and had food; often guys would 8 stop by to have a sandwich. I don't know if that was 9 Ken's goal or not. 10 I -- I don't know what the purpose of his 11 visit was and he never stated it. 12 Q: Well wouldn't it be dangerous for 13 officers to stop by and talk to you because somebody 14 might recognize them as an officer and then would blow 15 your cover, no? 16 A: I -- I would agree with you that it's 17 not the best practice but nobody came to visit us in 18 uniform, they were all in civilian attire. 19 Q: Yes, but it could be that it would be 20 an officer that some -- one of the Stoney Point people 21 had had previous interaction with, and if they saw such 22 an officer being friendly with you, they might begin to 23 suspect you, no? 24 A: Well, certainly. Certainly. 25 Q: So you don't recall considering that,
2271 as you spoke to Ken Deane or other officers? 2 A: Well the very first day that I was 3 there, or the first set of camping days that I was there, 4 I was with Chris Martin who -- who knew all these folks 5 and I'm assuming some of them could well have recognized 6 him too. 7 No, it never crossed my mind as a great 8 concern. 9 Q: Can you tell us about how long Ken 10 Deane spent with you on that day? 11 A: Maybe half an hour. I -- I can't 12 recall, to be sure. 13 Q: Okay. There was a Staff Sergeant 14 Charlie Bouwman? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And evidently at the time he was in 17 charge of the Grand Bend Detachment, I believe? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And while you were undercover, he was 20 also concerned with policing the situation in the Park; 21 is that fair? Were you aware of that? 22 A: I -- I'm not aware of what his duties 23 were. 24 Q: You weren't aware of that? I see. 25 A: No.
2281 Q: You didn't interact with him at all 2 in your undercover work, as far as you recollect? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Now, apparently on August 28th, 1995 5 there was a document produced, or it was produced before 6 then, but dated with that date, and it's part of Exhibit 7 P-1051. I should like to give you a copy, sir, and 8 Commissioner a copy. It's Tab Number 23 from P-1051. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, sir, this Tab 23 of P-1051 is a 13 document dated August 28, 1995 and says, "Subject, 14 Procedures dealing with First Nations people." 15 And it's a memorandum to all Park Wardens. 16 And the first paragraph indicates: 17 "First Nation person -- First Nations 18 person in contravention of the law. 19 Park Wardens are to be the eyes and 20 ears for the OPP when a First Nations 21 person has contravened the law. 22 Park Warden shall contact the OPP 23 immediately and advise the officers who 24 are dispatched what offences can be 25 charged and direct the OPP constables
2291 to lay the charges." 2 Now, sir, were you aware of this at the 3 time? 4 A: No. 5 Q: How could you be functioning as an 6 undercover officer, policing the situation, and not be 7 made aware of this procedure which was even to the Park 8 Wardens? 9 A: My work had -- had no direct ties to 10 what MNR Park Warden's job functions were. My -- my 11 assignment at the Park was clear, it was to gather 12 information, write it down and hand it in, which I did. 13 I -- I don't see how this relates to what 14 I was doing. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you. I'll move onto 16 other issues. Gerald George, September 6th. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now you -- you were aware, prior to 19 September 6th, that there was some dissension between 20 some of the people in Kettle Point and some of the people 21 in Stoney Point about the occupation, right? 22 A: I don't know. I don't know if that's 23 a fair comment to make. I don't know that I knew that. 24 Q: You weren't aware of that? 25 A: No.
2301 Q: As an undercover officer and then -- 2 and then as an officer afterward, you weren't aware of 3 any dissension like that? 4 You weren't aware of, for example, the 5 Chief making comments criticizing the people in the Park? 6 A: I -- I may have been, but I don't -- 7 I don't recall that, no. 8 Q: Now when you met with Gerald George, 9 he was obviously angry? 10 A: I don't -- I don't recall him being 11 angry, no. He was -- I don't know if I even made a note 12 of his demeanour but he seemed to me to be -- to be fine. 13 He was calm and cool and rational and sober. 14 Q: And you weren't aware that he had 15 written a letter to the local newspaper, denouncing the - 16 - some of the Stoney Point people? 17 A: No. No, sir. 18 Q: He described a number of weapons to 19 you. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You did a parallel investigation 22 afterward; there were no such weapons ever found, right, 23 and no bullets from any such weapons? 24 A: No, that's right. 25 Q: That's correct, right?
2311 A: Yes. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Moving ahead to later in the evening, 6 you told us that you phoned the Sarnia jail to ascertain 7 the availability of cells, and also the Crown to check 8 with respect to mischief charges. 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Now, Mark Wright advised you to make 11 those calls, sir? 12 A: As I recall it, yes. 13 Q: And you understood that he was 14 indicating that the CMU was going to be approaching the 15 people in the Park and were likely to make arrests for 16 mischief, and that's why he wanted you to make those two 17 (2) inquiries, right? 18 A: Don't think -- I don't think the Park 19 was part of it, I think it was the sandy parking lot 20 outside the Park. 21 Q: Yes. But he indicated that they 22 would go then to the sandy parking lot. 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And they were likely to arrest a 25 number of people for mischief.
2321 A: Right. 2 Q: And he wanted you to check on whether 3 or not mischief was an appropriate charge and that's the 4 purposes of phoning the Crown, right? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And he wanted you to check that there 7 were enough cells, so people could be put in them if 8 there were a large number arrested, right? 9 A: That's right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, going ahead to the hospital, you 14 acknowledged that it was a bit of a confusing situation. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: When Mr. Millar was asking you about 17 the arrests of the persons in the car accompanying Dudley 18 George, one of the things you answered to him was that 19 they might be witnesses. Do you recall -- 20 A: I recall saying that, yes. 21 Q: But then when Ms. Tuck-Jackson, 22 concerning the OPP, asked you why they were arrested, 23 were they arrested for being witnesses or suspects, you 24 indicated suspects. 25 A: That's correct. I believe when I
2331 made that answer this morning to Mr. Millar, that I had 2 indicated that perhaps I had gotten confused or wasn't -- 3 wasn't conveying my thoughts in a very effective manner. 4 But at any rate, yes, that's what I said. 5 Q: Well, all you knew about these people 6 is that they were driving an injured person to the 7 hospital, right? 8 A: Well there's more to it than that. I 9 knew that there had been an interaction with shots fired 10 and that there was somebody who had indeed been shot and 11 was suffering a gunshot wound and was on his way to the 12 hospital. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And that, in my mind, it only 15 reasonable and prudent to believe that the people that 16 were in that car were likely involved in that skirmish 17 with the police. 18 Q: I see. Now, when you did the 19 parallel investigation later, you found out the colour of 20 the car that had been involved in the incident, right? 21 A: Some time later. To be honest with 22 you, not 'til the search of the scene did I find out the 23 car was brown. 24 Q: Yes, it was a brown -- 25 A: For the longest time I thought it was
2341 the white car. 2 Q: Yes. If you'd known it was a brown 3 car, that would have reduced the suspicion of these 4 people driving in the white car, right? 5 A: It may well have, yes. It may. 6 Q: And nobody made a phone call to 7 anybody to find out what the colour of the car was that 8 was involved, did they, as far as you know? 9 A: As far as I know. I didn't make a 10 phone call, no. 11 Q: And you were not made aware of that 12 information? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And were you aware of anybody 15 investigating the colour of the car, from the time that 16 you saw these people apprehended at the hospital until, 17 say, the next morning? 18 A: I think it -- certainly by the next 19 morning, I think we saw a transcript of a conversation 20 with Mark Wright where he's telling the superintendent 21 that the car and the bus that had been involved had gone 22 back into the Park. 23 So investigation of those vehicles would 24 be impossible. 25 Q: But there were a number of officers
2351 who were involved in the confrontation, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And any one of them could have been 4 asked, 'What was the colour of the car that was 5 involved,' right? 6 A: I think that we made some effort to 7 that and -- and -- 8 Q: Oh, really? 9 A: Well, yeah, we -- myself and 10 Detective Inspector Bob Goodall went and talked with some 11 ERT members. 12 Q: Could -- could you indicate where 13 there's some reflection of you making an effort to -- to 14 try to ascertain the colour of the car by asking some of 15 the witnesses? 16 A: Oh, I -- I can't -- I can't point to 17 that in my notes, no. 18 Q: Well can you indicate what you 19 recollect about that effort? 20 A: That we got nowhere with it, no one 21 could remember. 22 Q: Sir, I would suggest to you that you 23 don't have to be a wonderful investigator for an effort 24 like that to have succeeded. There was some forty (40) 25 officers involved, surely you could have gotten to speak
2361 to one of them within an hour or two. 2 A: Well the one officer who did have 3 something to say about it was Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 4 Q: And what did he say? 5 A: And there's -- there's a note in my 6 book here that when Goodall and I were at his residence, 7 he remembers: 8 "One (1) male in white four (4) door 9 with handgun. Believes two (2) in 10 bus." 11 Q: So he identified the car as white? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what -- and what time was that, 14 sir? 15 A: 6:50 in the morning. 16 Q: 6:50 in the morning. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Do you have any other notations about 19 the colour of the car identified by -- 20 A: I don't' believe so, no. 21 Q: Now you indicated to Ms. Tuck-Jackson 22 that these people were suspects. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: But you agree that to arrest someone 25 you need reasonable and probable grounds, right?
2371 A: Right. 2 Q: And mere suspicion is not enough to 3 arrest someone, right? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Did -- in your view, did you have 6 reasonable and probable grounds to arrest these people? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what were those grounds? 9 Anything beyond what you told us, sir? 10 A: No. No, I was content with that. 11 Q: Thank you. Now you were assigned to 12 be -- to assist Inspector Goodall with his investigation, 13 right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Which was a parallel investigation 16 for the benefit of the Commissioner of the OPP, parallel 17 to the SIU investigation? 18 A: In part. 19 Q: In part. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And then also there was an attempt 22 murder investigation. 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And that was also done by Inspector 25 Goodall?
2381 A: Yeah. The -- the two (2) 2 investigations per se, are one (1) in the same. 3 Q: Okay. So there was an investigation 4 led by Inspector Goodall, it had two (2) components to it 5 we can say, is that a fair way to characterize it? 6 A: Yes, that would be fair. Yes. 7 Q: One was investigating the possibility 8 of attempt murder charges against some of the persons in 9 the Park? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the other was investigating what 12 happened vis-a-vis the shooting of Dudley George, 13 parallel to the SIU investigation? 14 A: Yeah. I think to be -- to be really 15 persnickety about it, is that the investigation into the 16 attempt murder of -- of the police officers during its 17 course, by the nature of it, it became a -- a parallel 18 investigation to the SIU. 19 It wasn't investigated as a parallel 20 investigation, per se. I was conducting the 21 investigation into the bus and the car, primarily, which 22 -- which turned out to -- to run amazingly parallel to 23 the SIU investigation -- 24 Q: Well did I misunderstand or mishear 25 your evidence earlier today, sir?
2391 A: No, I -- no, I don't believe so. No. 2 Q: Well didn't you tell us that there 3 was a parallel investigation for the benefit of the 4 Commissioner of the OPP? 5 A: Right. And -- and I just said that 6 they are one in the same. 7 Q: Now if you could, please, sir, turn 8 to your Tab 34. Tab 34 is an affidavit from you. It's 9 Inquiry Document 2005315 and it's an affidavit entitled, 10 "Code of Appeal for Ontario, Her Majesty the Queen and 11 Kenneth Deane." 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You recognize that document, sir? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: And you indicate in paragraph 2 of 16 that affidavit that: 17 "In January 1997 Officer Trevor 18 Richardson and I attended at the home 19 of Mr. Norm Peel." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now I'm going to stop there. Mr. 22 Norm Peel was the defence attorney for Kenneth Deane. 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: And when you attended, under what 25 auspices did you attend that meeting, sir? What brought
2401 you to that -- to his home? 2 A: At that time Trevor Richardson and I 3 had been assigned to assist Mr. Peel with -- not at -- 4 sorry, not at the time of the appeal but at the time of 5 Ken Deane's impending trial. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: We had been assigned to assist Mr. 8 Peel with his conducting Ken's defence. 9 Q: I see. And who gave you that 10 assignment, sir? 11 A: I can't recall exactly where it came 12 from, but at any rate, it was short lived and we were 13 taken off that. 14 Q: Now, for some short period of time -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- you were assigned, as part of your 17 official duties, to assist Mr. Peel -- 18 A: Right. 19 Q: -- with the defence of Kenneth Deane? 20 A: Yeah. More in an effort, I guess our 21 -- our role was more to help guide him through the files 22 and the officers and so on. 23 Q: I see. Yes, but by this time, of 24 course, you had learned an awful lot through whatever we 25 call that other investigation, one (1) and two (2)
2411 together -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- you had learned an awful lot about 4 what had happened on that evening, right? 5 A: Yes, yes. 6 Q: Because of your participation in the 7 investigation with -- led by Inspector Goodall? 8 And so the main service that you would 9 have done for Mr. Peel would have been to assist him to 10 understand the information that you had obtained in the 11 course of that investigation? 12 Is that what you -- is that what -- did I 13 understand you correctly? 14 A: I think that's fair, yes. 15 Q: And you say that your assignment in 16 that respect was short lived. What was the time period 17 of that assignment, approximately, sir? 18 A: Maybe two (2) weeks; a week to two 19 (2) weeks. 20 Q: I see. And the two (2) weeks would 21 have then included January 1997; that was in the course 22 of that assignment when you met with him? 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then why did that assignment end;
2421 had you completed your task or did someone replace you or 2 what? 3 A: We didn't complete our task -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's an 5 objection, Mr. Rosenthal. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I can 7 -- I can appreciate that Mr. Rosenthal starts asking 8 questions about this Affidavit and certainly nobody's 9 fussing about that. 10 My concern is we've now spent some time on 11 this, which is activities that happened long after 12 Ipperwash. I'm not sure, at the end of the day, Mr. 13 Commissioner, this is very helpful to you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, how is 15 this helpful, Mr. Rosenthal? 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How is this 18 helpful? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, I am often 20 forced, unfortunately, to reveal things that I don't want 21 to reveal when I'm cross-examining and this is one case 22 and I would ask that the Witness be excluded before I 23 speak to this. 24 I'm not going to be continually forced to 25 reveal the purpose of cross-examination. It doesn't
2431 allow proper cross-examination. I should like the 2 Witness to be excluded and then I shall explain. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, this is not a 4 trial. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was just 6 going to say that. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And My Friend -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This is not 9 a criminal trial, Mr. Rosenthal. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, but this is 11 attempt to get the truth, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but 13 the -- 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And in my view, 15 it's obviously relevant, but if it's not obviously 16 relevant, I should like to speak to it in the Witness' 17 absence, if I may. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, it might -- the 20 fastest might be to simply permit the Witness to answer 21 the question as to why he stopped working on the matter. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, I don't see 23 any possible objection to -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: May I --
2441 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 2 not going to turn this into a criminal trial, so I -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Nor am I going to 4 attempt to, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fair, 6 okay. I don't see the relevance, but I'm going to allow 7 you to ask the question. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: So you indicated you performed this 12 task for approximately two (2) weeks. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And then it came to an end and my 15 question was: Did it end because you'd completed the 16 task or because someone took over or what, and you said, 17 We didn't complete the task, but, and then there was an 18 objection. 19 So if you would continue from there, 20 please. 21 A: We were told to -- to cease. There 22 was, I -- I think at the time there had been another 23 investigation with another police force that was maybe, 24 in some way, similar to this kind of thing where officers 25 were helping with the defence and the optics weren't
2451 good, and so we were told that that would -- that was the 2 end of it, and we were done. 3 Q: And do you recall who told you that, 4 sir? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now, I presume that you still stand 7 by the contents of this Affidavit which you swore some 8 nine (9) years ago, sir; is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Still true? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And in paragraph 4 you indicate you 13 were interviewed by a Ron Piers -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And who was that person, sir? 16 A: Ron Piers is a retired OPP member who 17 had been retained, I believe, by Mr. Peel. 18 Q: I see. So he was an investigator 19 that had been retained to do an investigation by Mr. Peel 20 to assist in his defence? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And was he a former Commissioner of 23 the OPP or...? 24 A: Deputy Commissioner I think. 25 Q: Deputy Commissioner. So Ron Piers
2461 was a former Deputy Commissioner of the OPP? 2 A: I think so, yes. 3 Q: And during the two (2) week, 4 approximately, period that you were assisting you would 5 have worked with Mr. Piers as well? 6 A: I don't recall him being there. I 7 don't think -- I don't think he began his employment for 8 Mr. Peel until we were gone. 9 Q: I see. So you -- you would have been 10 working more directly with Mr. Peel? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then this affidavit was evidently 13 sworn by you on the 5th of August, 1998. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And so that was obviously in 16 preparation for the appeal of the conviction of Ken 17 Deane; is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now,... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Please look at Tab 4 which is -- or - 24 - or your notes -- 25 A: Okay.
2471 Q: For us it's Tab 4, for you it's your 2 notebook. 3 And I should like to look at pages 136 -- 4 approximately page 136 of that tab. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 6 which tab is this? 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: You don't have that 8 because we took out of and marked only as the exhibit up 9 to October the 4th of 1995. Page 136 is, I believe, '97 10 -- May 15th, 1997. And -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. So the 12 Commissioner doesn't have the same -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- documents that 15 we do? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, because -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, that's fine. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Commission Counsel 19 made a determination that these were not relevant. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's the 21 reason, Mr. Rosenthal. The reason I don't have them is-- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- they were 24 determined to be irrelevant. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, it -- it
2481 relates to the earlier question. But I should like to 2 ask him a question if I may and if there's an objection 3 I'll respond to it. Now -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. -- Mr. 5 Commissioner, for a start -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: -- this Witness needs 8 to have an opportunity to see what the notes are so maybe 9 we can just check and see if he has notes with him for 10 that date? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, certainly, I 12 -- I shall do that. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Do you -- do you have May 15, sir? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 17 don't see how the Witness -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He has his book. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, we 20 have -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We haven't 22 provided -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 May, 1997. It's 24 page 136 of the Inquiry Document Number 2003453. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we
2491 certainly don't have them and I don't know if anybody has 2 them. But he may have them, I don't know. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I presume he has 4 -- we have it if -- we just didn't make it marked as part 5 of the exhibit. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I believe he has - 8 - the Witness has his book here that probably contains 9 page 136. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 11 THE WITNESS: I do. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- we'd 13 better hear the question before we decide if it's 14 relevant or not. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We want to 17 hear your question -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- before we 20 decide if it's relevant. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: So, sir, do you have that in front of 24 you, sir? 25 A: Yes, I do.
2501 Q: So it -- it indicates that on 15 May, 2 1997, you attended a meeting in London and one (1) of the 3 -- several persons were present including Detective 4 Inspector Goodall and yourself; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then continuing to the next page: 7 "Detective Inspector Goodall explained 8 that we are to feel free to discuss 9 with Ron Piers names of witnesses and 10 the contents of their statements, 11 however we are not to give to him any 12 hardcopy information." 13 Now, am I correct, sir, that that refers 14 to your instructions with respect to your task that you 15 told us you did for a couple of weeks of assisting Mr. 16 Peel? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Once again, 18 Mr. Rosenthal, it's not obvious to me why this is 19 relevant. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I 22 haven't heard an objection but it's just not obvious to 23 me why this is relevant. Perhaps you should speak to it. 24 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 25 if you need to hear an objection, I'm here to make an
2511 objection. I don't see the relevance of this. We are 2 talking, whatever is going on, we're talking about things 3 that happened years after -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 5 how that's helpful. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the events in 7 question at this Inquiry and that is what you're 8 concerned about, Mr. Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, Mr. 11 Commissioner, perhaps I may -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I'll ask a 14 couple of other questions to lay further foundation and 15 then these questions, I don't believe, will object -- 16 will be objected to and then I'll make my argument and 17 I'll make it in front of the Witness. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 20 Q: Now, sir, you, I gather, felt 21 supportive of Ken Deane after he was charged; is that 22 correct? 23 A: Pardon me? 24 Q: You were -- you felt supportive of 25 Ken Deane, after he was charged; is that correct?
2521 A: Yeah, that's fair to say. 2 Q: That's fair to say. And that support 3 continued even after he was convicted, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And as far as you understood that was 6 pretty much the general feeling of the officers that you 7 were aware of, right; supportive of Ken Deane before and 8 after his conviction? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 10 can just ask him about what his views are, what -- 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, with great 12 respect -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know 14 if he can speak to anybody else's views. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, with great 16 respect, Mr. Commissioner, we have had a lot of evidence 17 of that type and -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, then 19 it's if we have it, we have it. You don't need to get it 20 from this Witness. We can each witness what their views 21 were. 22 You ask him what he did, you already did, 23 and he's already said -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But, with respect, 25 Mr. Commissioner, we're not going to be calling all the
2531 officers. We're calling only a representative sample and 2 in my respectful submission that was not an improper 3 question. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't -- 5 yes? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, I don't think 7 that personally, I don't think that question's un -- 8 improper -- 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- but the whole -- 11 this isn't -- the -- I agree with Ms. Jones that what 12 happened in '97 is not -- is beyond the issue of 13 relevance. There may be questions that -- that might 14 have some connection as we've had in the past, but I just 15 don't understand this nor its relevance. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, at first Mr. 17 Millar said he's not -- he didn't object to the question, 18 but then he doesn't understand its relevance. I presume 19 that is an objection. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He thought 21 the question -- 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: In any event -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- was 24 proper but it wasn't relevant, so. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, with great
2541 respect, Mr. Commissioner, this Witness has -- has 2 acknowledged that he was supportive of Ken Deane, both 3 before and after his conviction. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I 5 understand that. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And that must be 7 important for you, Mr. Commissioner, in evaluating his 8 evidence and -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you've 10 just made that point. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've made 13 that point. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I'm trying to 15 lay a further foundation, sir. If that is relevant -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and it must be 18 relevant, then I -- then I must be able to explore it 19 further and get further evidence about it. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 21 that it is -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, but he had -- 23 this man gave no evidence about Kenneth Deane. He wasn't 24 in the sandy parking lot to see what Kenneth Deane did. 25 If -- and he said that he met Kenneth Deane; he had a
2551 note in his book on one (1) day when he was a camper. 2 He wasn't in the sandy parking lot -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This -- 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the evening of -- 5 this man. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This Witness 7 wasn't. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Was not in the sandy 9 parking lot on the evening of September the 6th and how 10 can he -- he had nothing to do with what Kenneth Deane 11 did or did not do in the Parking -- sandy parking lot in 12 the evening of September 6th. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I frankly don't 14 understand these kind of objections, Mr. Commissioner. 15 It -- is Mr. Millar saying that the fact 16 that a witness might be totally supportive of Ken Deane 17 before and after his conviction, might not affect his 18 evidence in other respects than exactly what he saw Ken 19 Deane do; whether or not he saw Ken Deane do it? 20 Of course, it might colour his witness -- 21 his evidence about the entire matter, about the way 22 Dudley George was behaving as part of a justification, 23 perhaps, for Ken Deane shooting him and so on -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't
2561 understand these kind of objections. I was going to ask 2 a few questions. I -- I was about to finish the area, 3 with a few more questions. I don't see any proper 4 objections to those questions. They obviously relate to 5 credibility and not just on what Ken Deane did, but of 6 the entire evidence. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 8 how they relate to credibility and I don't see how 9 they're relevant, quite frankly. But anyway -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: If that's a ruling 11 then -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you -- 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- we'll move on, 14 Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You had a 16 couple of questions -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was -- I was -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that you 19 were going to ask. We don't need to hear from you on 20 this, Mr. Roy. You're going to have your opportunity to 21 ask your questions, I'm dealing with Mr. Rosenthal. 22 MR. JULIAN ROY: As long as I'm not -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 24 helpful to have other people who aren't involved in this, 25 object at this point.
2571 MR. JULIAN ROY: Well, all right. It's 2 just that I would have intended to cover some of these 3 same areas -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 5 fine. Then he'll cover it -- 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- as well and it just-- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- then 8 we'll deal with it. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- all right. Thank 10 you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I'm not sure 13 exactly what Mr. Roy has in mind, but -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Neither do 15 I. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I know what I 17 have in mind and I'm -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I'm 19 confused with what you have in mind with what Mr. Roy may 20 have in mind. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just carry 23 on, Mr. Rosenthal. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm trying my very 25 best, sir.
2581 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many 2 more questions do you have about this because sometimes-- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Just a -- just a 4 few if I may. I just would like to have the question 5 that I did and I was stopped on that Mr. Millar first 6 said he sees proper and then -- and then said it was not 7 relevant. I'd like to continue with that question if I 8 may. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sometimes -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And then I'd like 11 to just explore a little bit more of this in light of 12 several other aspects and I expect five (5) minutes 13 maximum if I am allowed to do so. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 15 think this is relevant but sometimes, Mr. Rosenthal, I 16 find that even having evidence that's not relevant is 17 better than having a large argument about why it may or 18 may not be relevant. 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Certainly sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if you 21 say you've got five (5) minutes to go, I would say ask 22 the question. So unless it's improper or unfair -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- then I'd 25 say go ahead and we'll deal with the relevance at some
2591 other time. Carry on. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you very 3 much, Mr. Commissioner. I -- I would suggest from a time 4 point of view that is -- it is sensible. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 7 Q: In any event, Sir, so you told us 8 frankly that you yourself were supportive of Ken Deane 9 both prior to and following his conviction? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then I had asked you from you 12 speaking to other officers was that the general feeling 13 as far as you observed. 14 OBJ MS. KAREN JONES: And I do object to that 15 question. This Witness can't say what a general feeling 16 among officers in general is. 17 It's not -- 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I said it's -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: It's not -- it's not -- 20 in the first place it's improper, in the second place, 21 Mr. Commissioner, it's not helpful. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I indicated -- I 24 indicated from his observation -- from his interchange. 25 And it's entirely proper in my respectful submission.
2601 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It may be, I 2 don't find it helpful what he thought other people 3 thought but... 4 MS. KAREN JONES: And -- and Mr. 5 Commissioner, just to be clear, there's some seven 6 thousand (7,000) people -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: OPP. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: -- employed by the OPP. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Questions like that -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't find 12 that -- 13 MS. KAREN JONES: -- do not give you any 14 assistance -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: -- and this officer 17 can't possibly answer a question like that. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar 19 thought it was a proper question but I don't think it's a 20 helpful question. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well I -- I thought it 22 -- it was what he observed. And I think that's -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- what he had said 25 before. And his perception and that's why I said that I
2611 had no objection to that question. 2 And we've asked that kind of question 3 before. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Of other 5 people. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But not as a whole. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- it's within 9 his limited sphere. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Absolutely. I'm 11 sure the transcript will show that I asked about his 12 interaction with officers, what he observed and that's 13 all of course I'm asking him. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 Carry on. 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So may I have an 17 answer then? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It may not 19 be helpful but it's not improper so ask him. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Well now, sir, from your interaction 23 with other officers and your observations, would you 24 agree that generally you seemed to find agreement with 25 your views that Kenneth Deane should be supported both
2621 prior to and after his conviction? 2 A: I think it's fair to say that some 3 officers agreed, yes. 4 Q: Did you find any officers who 5 strongly disagreed with that? To your observation? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Thank you. Now you did quite a lot 8 of obtaining of statements from military personnel who'd 9 been involved in Camp Ipperwash with interactions with 10 some of the Stoney Point people, is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You've moved 13 on, is that right? 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm sorry, sir? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I want to 16 make sure you've moved on -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. I -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to 19 another area. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well this is a 21 related point but -- but I moved it to a different -- I'm 22 not -- yes. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Now in the course of your -- you were
2631 seeking to obtain from those military personnel, 2 statements about what they regarded as wrong doing by the 3 Stoney Point people, right? 4 A: We were hoping to talk to them to get 5 statements about their involvement at Ipperwash, their 6 observations. 7 Q: And in particular, you were looking 8 for either unlawful or otherwise not laudatory behaviour 9 by the Stoney Point people? 10 A: I don't think that's fair at all. We 11 were looking to get statements from them as to their 12 observations while they work there. 13 Q: I see. And some of those statements 14 were among the matters that you turned over to -- or that 15 you discussed with Mr. Peel, Ken Deane's lawyer, is that 16 correct? 17 A: My notes says that we are to feel free 18 to discuss with him. I don't recall exactly what I 19 discussed with him. It does appear as though I did 20 provide -- well myself and Richardson did provide names 21 of MP's spoken to and the contents of their statements. 22 Q: And you continued to seek such 23 information even after the conviction of Ken Deane, is 24 that correct? 25 A: I'm not sure when the conviction of
2641 Ken Deane was, maybe you could... 2 Q: I believe -- your indulgence. I 3 believe that the conviction was entered on April 28th, 4 1997. Perhaps -- My Friend will correct me if I'm wrong 5 I hope. 6 MS. KAREN JONES: Well, Mr. Commissioner, 7 I think that what would be fair in this situation, if Mr. 8 Rosenthal intends to ask this Officer questions about 9 things that happened two (2) or three (3) or whatever 10 years later after 1995, the Commission had made a 11 determination of what was relevant. 12 I can tell you that this Officer had an 13 opportunity to review his notes in the area of what was 14 relevant. He hasn't looked at other information and so 15 for Mr. Rosenthal to put to him questions about things 16 that happened after the fact with no specifics, with no 17 opportunity to review his notes is quite frankly unfair. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But that -- 19 MS. KAREN JONES: And so if there are -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- doesn't 21 seem fair. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- specific statements 23 or specific things this Officer ought to have, for 24 example if Mr. Rosenthal is going to refer to statements 25 this Officer ought to have a chance to review the
2651 statements, he ought to have a chance to review his 2 notes, and without doing that frankly it doesn't assist 3 and it doesn't help you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 5 MS. KAREN JONES: And again, Mr. 6 Commissioner, at the end of the day I really question how 7 asking this Officer about things that happened years 8 after 1995 is going to assist you with your mandate at 9 this Inquiry. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 11 Ms. Jones. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, I 13 asked a very simple question. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And the Officer 16 wanted additional information in order to answer the 17 question and I supplied that information and he was then 18 going to answer the question. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What 20 information was that that you supplied? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He -- I -- I asked 22 did the investigation of -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- of Military 25 personnel with respect to incidents by Stoney Point
2661 people continue after the date of Mr. Deane's conviction? 2 And he asked me what was the date of the 3 conviction and I responded, I understand it was April 4 28th, 1997. And I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. 5 And then he was about to answer that; 6 he's looking through his notebook and he would have 7 answered it simply yes or no. It doesn't need any big 8 investigation like -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- My Friend 11 suggested. He would have answered it yes or no and I 12 would have gone on to one (1) other question I have and 13 we would have been done ten (10) minutes ago. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. That 15 question about what date Ken Deane was convicted is the 16 question and you've said it was April of -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, no. No, he 18 doesn't need that -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, and 20 that's where we are now. So you've got one (1) question 21 beyond that? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So my question was, 23 if he did any of this Military investigation after that 24 date of April 28th, 1997, when Ken Deane was convicted? 25 And then I have one (1) other question --
2671 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 8 Q: And then my last question is, when 9 did the other investigation, the combined attempt murder 10 and whatever investigation, when did that end, sir? 11 A: It never -- the -- the charges of 12 attempt murder against members of the OPP never 13 materialized and we ended up with charges against the 14 driver of the bus and the driver of the car and... 15 Q: I believe you misspoke yourself. You 16 said the charges of attempt murder against members of the 17 OPP never materialized. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: You meant -- you meant against Stoney 20 Point people or against -- 21 A: No, no. 22 Q: -- against the OPP? 23 A: I was investigating the attempt 24 murder of members of the OPP. 25 Q: Of members of the OPP?
2681 A: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, those 3 matters were resolved years earlier. 4 THE WITNESS: Right. 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: All right. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, as it turns out on 7 the -- like on the 26th of May Nick Cottrelle was found 8 not guilty as the driver of the bus and I don't have -- 9 I'm going to have to look to see when it was that the 10 trial of Warren George came to an end but... 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry, Mr. 13 Commissioner, I -- I realize I did have one (1) other 14 brief area that I hadn't gone into. I've -- I've done 15 less than an hour, Mr. Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not the 17 time, it's the relevance. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, well, the 19 relevance is -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's the 21 relevance. It's got nothing to do with time. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: The relevance will 23 be apparent. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it 25 isn't.
2691 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I -- I haven't 4 asked the question. I said it's a different area -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, all 6 right. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- than I had in my 8 notes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, but I 10 mean the last series of questions has not been that 11 helpful but carry on with your last question and we'll 12 see where we are. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: Bernard Cecil George we have evidence 16 was -- received at least twenty-eight (28) different 17 blows in the course of the evening. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, we 19 don't have evidence of that, that he had twenty-eight 20 (28) different blows. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: We do. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: What we have from Dr. 23 Marr is a chart. The chart sets out a number of areas 24 where Mr. Cecil Bernard George reported a number of 25 things, in some cases, including soreness, for which
2701 there is no obvious sign of anything. 2 There was no evidence that there were 3 twenty-eight (28) separate blows and Mr. Rosenthal ought 4 to put the evidence fairly and clearly to this witness. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Mr. 6 Rosenthal -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- is trying 9 to be -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There definitely 11 was such evidence, Mr. Commissioner, and I ask for your 12 indulgence. I will try to locate it. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know that 14 you sometimes try to be helpful in terms of asking a 15 question in a short form manner, but sometimes when you 16 do that, it's not fair. 17 So if you want to refer us to the 18 evidence, then go ahead -- 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But I'm often 20 accused -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're not 22 accused of anything. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I was accused of 24 putting improper evidence -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't take
2711 it as an accusation. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I do. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I take it as 4 a suggestion -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But in any event -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that 7 we're trying to be fair to the witness. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So if you 10 are, you got to put the evidence fairly, that's all. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I believe the evidence 15 was, My Friend reminds me, Ms. Vella, that Dr. Marr said 16 there was evidence of twenty-eight (28) marks of trauma, 17 physical trauma. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But at any rate, I'm 20 not... 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 22 enough for you to ask the question, Mr. Rosenthal, the 23 way in which Mr. Millar has recounted the evidence, 24 twenty-eight (28) marks of -- 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I recall --
2721 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- physical 2 trauma? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I recall -- I 4 recall specifically asking the doctor: Does that mean 5 that there were at least twenty-eight (28) different 6 blows, or words to that effect, and her answer, Yes. 7 But I'm happy to do it based on that -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 9 see if -- 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- in any event. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that's 12 satisfactory. If that's the evidence -- 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 15 Q: My -- my question, though, sir, is: 16 Did you, in your parallel investigation, or whatever 17 investigation, uncover any officer who acknowledged 18 striking Cecil Bernard George in any form with baton or 19 foot? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And you -- did you try to -- try to - 22 - did you interview any officers about that question, 23 sir? 24 A: Not that question in particular. 25 That -- there was an investigation conducted into that,
2731 but that investigation was conducted by the SIU, as I 2 recall. 3 My involvement in that was lining up 4 officers to be interviewed by SIU. 5 Q: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. Rosenthal. 8 I'd like to take an afternoon break now. 9 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 10 for fifteen (15) minutes. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 3:09 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 3:27 p.m. 14 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 16 resumed. Please be seated. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: First 18 Nation, you have no questions? No? 19 I thought that -- 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I don't think she 21 is. The order hasn't changed, I'm still -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The order 23 hasn't changed. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- before the First 25 Nations.
2741 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 Okay, Mr. -- 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: They should raise a 4 few things that they may follow me up on. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 6 Mr. Scullion. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 8 Commissioner. May I just read a portion of transcript to 9 verify that I did accurately reflect some of the evidence 10 with respect to Cecil Bernard George, that we did have 11 medical evidence that he did receive at least twenty- 12 eight (28) different injuries. 13 Shall I refer to that transcript? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 15 Millar already said that, or already said something to 16 that effect, if I'm not mistaken. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: The way I said it 18 there is evidence of. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 20 Mr. Rosenthal. 21 Yes, Mr. Scullion...? 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I also didn't pop up 23 at that point, but I think Mr. Rosenthal was accurate 24 with respect to the evidence that was given, which may or 25 may not be followed up on as we have the officers come
2751 up. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 4 Q: Good afternoon -- 5 A: Good afternoon. 6 Q: -- Constable Dougan. My name's Kevin 7 Scullion, I'm one of Counsel for the residents of 8 Aazhoodena. You probably know them better as the Stoney 9 Pointers. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: And just one (1) quick question, 12 following up Mr. Rosenthal's line of questioning: I take 13 it that in your parallel investigation that you were 14 doing at the request of the Commissioner, on behalf of 15 the OPP, all of the information that you were able to dig 16 up in any way, shape or form that related to these 17 events, you shared with the SIU? 18 A: I -- I don't know -- I don't know 19 that I can answer that question yes or no. I know that 20 they made requests for information and -- and we provided 21 the information that they requested. 22 Q: But outside of a request from them 23 for specific information, do I take it, then, it wasn't a 24 directive for you to simply share everything that you dig 25 up with the SIU?
2761 A: Not as I recall. Not as I recall, 2 no. 3 Q: All right. I'd like to take you 4 back, if I could, with a few more questions regarding 5 your undercover operations in the Park. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: And I take it, listening to your 8 evidence, it seemed to be that one (1) of the primary 9 objectives of this undercover operation was to gather as 10 much intelligence as possible and relate it back to 11 Sergeant Wright; is that fair? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And the purpose of doing that was to 14 assist in the drafting or the contingency planning in the 15 event that the Park was taken over Labour Day Weekend? 16 A: That wasn't communicated to me. That 17 may have been his goal but I knew nothing of what was 18 going to happen with the information that we collected. 19 Q: Okay. So they never -- those higher 20 up than you -- 21 A: Right. 22 Q: -- and I take Sergeant Wright as an 23 example, but those higher up never informed you as to why 24 they were seeking this intelligence from you? 25 A: No.
2771 Q: So I take it from that answer you 2 weren't able to sculpt what was coming back to them, you 3 simply gave them everything and anything you saw that you 4 considered to be of note? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: All right. I take it, at some point 7 in the briefings, leading up to or during these 8 undercover operations, you were aware of incidents that 9 were occurring on the beach between those in the Park and 10 those that were in the Camp? 11 A: I -- I'm sorry, I'm not sure that I 12 follow what you mean by that. 13 Q: We've heard, in the course of this 14 Inquiry, a number of confrontations or incidents, as we 15 call them, where there's some confrontation between those 16 that are in the Camp, in the Army Camp, and those that 17 are in the Park, presumably Park users, in the beach 18 area. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Were you aware of those incidents at 21 the time that you were doing the undercover operation? 22 A: No, I -- I was aware of what I saw-- 23 Q: I appreciate that. 24 A: -- and what I heard, but. 25 Q: But were you aware that there was a
2781 concern that that kind of incident or confrontation was 2 occurring? 3 A: I -- I don't know that I can say 4 that, other than to say, you know, that way back to '94, 5 when we were going to the beach, there was, I suppose, a 6 concern of some -- of some kind to cause us to go out 7 there to see if, in fact, anything was happening there, 8 but I -- I don't recall anything like that being 9 communicated to me. 10 Q: Okay. And I just take one (1) 11 incident as an example, back in July 12th, '95 there's an 12 incident that occurs on the beach, and part of the 13 resolution simply involves discussions with those in the 14 Park, and those in the Camp, and that that helped to 15 diffuse the situation. 16 And that one (1) of the follow-ups was 17 simply that we should have somebody in the area in case 18 this occurs again. 19 And I take that from an MNR note, but the 20 OPP, at least the higher-ups, were aware of that as well. 21 Do I take it from your evidence you 22 weren't aware of either the incidents occurring or the 23 goal to have somebody in the area? 24 A: No. No, I'm not aware of what 25 you're --
2791 Q: All right. Where did you set up your 2 undercover operations at the latter part of August '95? 3 A: I -- I think our -- our campsite 4 remained fairly consistent after the -- after the first 5 couple of weeks and that was in the northeast portion of 6 the campground. 7 Q: Right. Close to the border with the 8 Camp, correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. So part of what you were 11 watching, whether or not you knew that that was the goal, 12 was the area on the beach between the Camp and the Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And one (1) of the things 15 you were also looking for was whether or not the people 16 in the Camp side had weapons of any kind, correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And that's an issue that 19 Sergeant Wright brought up with you at the briefings; 20 that you should be on the lookout to see whether or not 21 they have weapons? 22 A: I don't recall him saying that, no. 23 Q: That would have been a concern for 24 you, and you would have reported it back, correct? 25 A: I -- I think as a police officer
2801 anyone with a weapon is -- is a concern. But I don't 2 recall Mark Wright voicing that specific concern to me. 3 Q: All right. And you never voiced any 4 concerns back to Mr. -- or Sergeant Wright regarding 5 weapons, because you never say any? 6 A: I never saw any, that's right. 7 Q: Okay. I didn't hear from you whether 8 or not your cover was blown at any point in time in 9 August of '95. 10 A: Well, I think very definitely it was. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: But maybe not with everybody in the - 13 - in the Park but I'm sure that there were campers in 14 that Provincial Park who knew who we were. There was one 15 (1) family in particular that was kind enough to bring us 16 coffee and muffins almost every morning that we were 17 there. 18 So there was no question at that time that 19 we had been compromised to some extent, yes. 20 Q: You're undercover but it was pretty 21 obvious what you were doing? 22 A: We were quite comfortably undercover, 23 yes. 24 Q: But those are park users, correct? 25 A: Yes.
2811 Q: All right. And from what I heard 2 from you, you thought it was your impression that Dudley 3 George didn't know that you were undercover and in fact 4 confided in one (1) of the officers at some point along 5 the line? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: All right. But that cover again was 8 blown as of September 3rd or 4th when there was an 9 incident on the beach involving the automobile? 10 A: Yes, that's right. 11 Q: Was there any discussion at any point 12 in time in any of the briefings that you had regarding 13 Serpent Mounds and the potential occupation of Serpent 14 Mounds Provincial Park on the Labour Day weekend? 15 A: I -- no. No, I have no idea what 16 you're talking about. 17 Q: You had -- you didn't know about it 18 then and you've never learned of it since? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right. So you've never been part 21 of any review by the OPP as to what went right or what 22 went wrong with the Ipperwash situation in comparison to 23 the Serpent Mounds? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Now, with respect to Dudley George,
2821 it sounded to me from your evidence that you were quite 2 familiar with him as a bit of a rabble rouser or 3 sometimes troublemaker. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that fair? 6 A: That's fair. 7 Q: Did you see him as a leader of the 8 group that was in the Camp? 9 A: I don't know that I ever -- I am -- 10 putting him in my mind as being a leader and I -- and I 11 don't know that I ever did put anybody in my mind of the 12 group as being a leader until that -- that confrontation 13 or showdown on the beach on the 4th where Judas stepped 14 forward to talk to Sergeant Korosec. 15 I think that was in my mind, the first 16 time that there was a -- a leader and whether he was just 17 the leader for that particular occurrence, I can't say 18 what, but... 19 Q: Okay. So you at not point in time 20 did you identify a leader and the incident that you refer 21 to you can't identify anybody as a specific overall 22 leader although he took the lead -- 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: -- in some discussions? 25 A: That's right.
2831 Q: All right. Who else did you know, in 2 terms of the occupiers of the Army Camp, leading up to 3 September the 4th in addition to Dudley? 4 A: Who else was I able to identify by 5 name you mean? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Worm, there was Stewart Bradley 8 George. And there was certainly faces that I recognized. 9 There was one fellow with long blonde hair whose name I 10 don't know. 11 But really very few that I could actually 12 put a name to. Faces that I recalled from seeing the 13 days before, many, but as far as names go, not many. I 14 wasn't familiar with these people. 15 Q: Okay. Were you every responsible for 16 taking pictures of any of the events or any of the 17 people? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. Did you report what you 20 knew or saw or found out about Dudley back to Sergeant 21 Wright; would that be part of what you did? 22 A: I did that certainly on the first 23 night that I was camping there, yes. 24 Q: Right. Well there's an incident that 25 you referred to involving Dudley George and you reported
2841 that -- 2 A: In what -- 3 Q: -- back to Sergeant Wright? 4 A: That first night the -- with the -- 5 the boaters and the older couple, yes. 6 Q: Right. And you reported it back as 7 Dudley George as opposed to simply one of the people 8 occupying the Camp? 9 A: Yeah. I believe I did. 10 Q: You referred to him by name? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Okay. And I take it that in the 13 course of your undercover operation, all the way up to 14 what we've seen in September 4th with a confrontation on 15 the beach, things were relatively peaceful other than a 16 few incidents that occurred? 17 A: Yeah, but by and large it was -- it 18 was fairly routine, I would agree with that. 19 Q: Okay. Would you agree with me that 20 for those things that did occur, it was the result of 21 people from the Park wandering onto the Camp grounds or 22 Camp area and being told to get back or get off the land? 23 A: If the incidents that you're 24 referring to are the -- the so called assaults and so on, 25 then yes, I would agree with that. But as far as the
2851 jacklighting on the campers and things like that go, that 2 was -- that was never brought on by actions of the 3 campers that I saw, that was just something that happened 4 routinely. 5 Q: Okay. Other than the jacklighting 6 which you're referring to which you -- 7 A: Yeah, right. 8 Q: -- appreciate is Matheson Road -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- area? 11 A: There was the two (2) stories. There 12 was the story that a dog had been -- had been shot at and 13 then there was some coolers stolen, there's that story, 14 and then there was the other one of on September 3rd, I 15 think, where the -- where a fellow was supposedly 16 assaulted and his dog beaten, and this Curtis fellow that 17 I could never find, that -- and -- and I think that same 18 weekend was the couple walking down the beach. 19 Those incidents, yes, were -- I would 20 agree with you, they happened as a result of people 21 walking on the Army side of the beach. 22 Q: All right. But that didn't stop you 23 from seeing what was going on in the camp area and in 24 fact getting on from what I understand your Seadoo and 25 going down the beach and checking out areas on the
2861 Military Camp side? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. In terms of your position 4 being close to the border between the Army Camp side and 5 the Provincial Park side -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- would it have been helpful if you 8 had been in uniform and had a cruiser for the purpose of 9 preventing what I've referred to as incidents on that 10 beach, in your view? 11 A: It's pretty hard for me to anticipate 12 what might -- what might have happened. Of course 13 conversely what might have happened is it might have 14 caused more problems. I -- I don't know how to answer 15 that question other than that. 16 Q: Well, I'm just asking whether or not 17 it came to mind -- 18 A: No, I -- 19 Q: -- for you -- 20 A: I never considered that. 21 Q: All right. You never talked about 22 that with your partner or with other people that were 23 doing the undercover operation? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Or with Sergeant Wright?
2871 A: No. 2 Q: Now, with respect to the intelligence 3 that you are reporting back, did you do -- did you put 4 any effort into verifying whether or not it was true or 5 accurate? 6 A: The only verifying that I ever 7 attempted to do was to find that camper named Curtis and, 8 no, it was not my function. 9 Q: All right. I saw in the notes a 10 reference to a fellow by the name of Andy, at -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- least somebody had referred it 13 back to you and there was an interview with someone at 14 some point -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- about statements that were made by 17 Andy. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Do I take it that that information 20 was simply relayed back to Sergeant Wright, as opposed to 21 follow- up to see if it was accurate? 22 A: I was never assigned to follow it up, 23 right. 24 Q: All right. And it would be up to 25 Sergeant Wright to assign you to follow it up?
2881 A: Right. 2 Q: All right. Were you aware of anybody 3 at the OPP that was taking the information from you or 4 from your fellow undercover officers, and analysing it? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Would you agree with me that it's 7 important that when you're provided with information, 8 that you verify that information involved including who's 9 giving you that information and whether or not it's 10 accurate? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And I raise that, because we've had, 16 as part of the Inquiry, access to a report that we've 17 referred at times as the Connolly report and that's an 18 investigation that took place at the instance of the OPP 19 to look in, at least on the surface, as to what occurred 20 or what appeared to occur to, for the Ipperwash incident. 21 Are you aware of any type of that -- that 22 investigation that occurred? 23 A: I was aware that something was going 24 on with, I think he was an inspector at the time, 25 Connolly, but I had no idea really what his mandate was
2891 and -- or what he was doing. 2 Q: All right. Because part of his 3 recommendations... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Mr. Millar assists me; it's Exhibit 8 P-483. 9 Part of his recommendations was a question 10 about the intelligence that the OPP was receiving and 11 whether or not it was authenticated before decisions were 12 made upon it. 13 Were you aware that that was one (1) of 14 the recommendations? 15 A: No. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Had you worked with Sergeant Wright 20 before this undercover operation? 21 A: Yes. He was my immediate supervisor 22 in the crime unit I worked in. 23 Q: All right. Had you worked with 24 Sergeant Korosec before? 25 A: I don't know that I ever did work
2901 directly with Stan, no. I knew who he was, but I had 2 been on some crowd control team functions with him years 3 earlier, before there was such a thing as ERT. We were 4 called a crowd control team and I was on that team. 5 And so I had done some things with Stan, 6 but I had not worked with him on a shift or on a daily 7 basis, no. 8 Q: All right. How about Lacroix? 9 A: Yes, I had worked with Lacroix, 10 initially, when he came out of TRU team, promoted to 11 Corporal he was a -- a Corporal who ran my shift from 12 time to time and then later he -- he had gone back to 13 TRU. He came back to Petrolia Detachment again as the 14 Staff Sergeant Detachment Commander and was, in fact, my 15 boss for a while. 16 Q: Okay. We have a meeting occurring 17 September 1, 1995, in which Project Maple is outlined to 18 a number of different OPP officers and I don't see your 19 name on the list of those present. 20 Do you recall whether or not you were 21 present for a meeting on September 1st hosted by 22 Inspector Carson? 23 A: I don't believe I was there. 24 Q: All right. Part of the discussion 25 involved a comment by John Carson that said when we
2911 approached the Natives to leave we always stayed in their 2 face. 3 Was that sentiment ever given to you by 4 either Inspector Carson, Sergeant Wright, or others? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now, you indicated you went up in the 7 helicopter? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You indicated for a couple of 10 moments, but I suspect it was a little bit longer than 11 that? 12 A: It may have been. I can't recall how 13 long we were in the air. 14 Q: Right. Do I take it then it was more 15 -- closer to half an hour than two (2) or three (3) hours 16 that you were in the air? 17 A: Closer to half an hour, yeah, I would 18 think, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: In -- in -- and I understand from 22 your evidence that part of why you went up in the 23 helicopter was to observe the removal of the picnic 24 tables? 25 A: Yes.
2921 Q: And that would have been the morning 2 of September the 6th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Are you aware of any 5 pictures having been taken from that helicopter of the 6 removal? 7 A: Well, there was only the -- the pilot 8 and myself in the helicopter and I never took any 9 pictures so... 10 Q: All right. There was nobody else, no 11 other OPP officers in the helicopter at that time? 12 A: No, it was a two (2) seater. 13 Q: So what was the purpose of you going 14 up in that helicopter at that time? 15 A: I don't know that the purpose was 16 ever stated to me. I was just told to go and observe. 17 Q: Okay. In your book in front of you, 18 if you can turn to Tab 18. 19 Do you have that in front of you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: That's a telephone call that we've 22 listened to over the speakers here and it basically 23 reflects your report after speaking with Gerald George. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. It's quite specific about
2931 weaponry that you're saying Gerald George told you was in 2 the hands of the occupiers -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- at that time. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Your notes also reflect that 7 information coming from Gerald George, right? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Mr. Millar cross-examined you to an 10 extent on what Mr. George testified was very general 11 statements he made to you, and certainly not to the 12 effect that he said what you're relating here. 13 I take it you disagree with his version of 14 the discussion that you had? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Now, you went on duty 17 that night at 7:55? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Tab 16? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: I see you checking your notes; it
2941 might be easiest just to go to Tab 16 on the front page. 2 A: Okay. All right. 3 Q: The 6th of September, 1955, you 4 report for duty? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Part of -- one of the first things 7 that you do when you report is that you're briefed, 8 correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Where does that briefing take place? 11 A: Well, actually it says that I report 12 duty and that I'm assigned by Detective Sergeant 13 Richardson to head to the scene of a mischief, is what my 14 notes say. 15 Q: I -- I see those notes but I'd also 16 ask you to take a look at Sergeant Richardson's, Trevor 17 Richardson's, notes which I understand your Counsel's 18 been able to provide you either with a copy or I can 19 provide you. 20 This is the copy here. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And I just provide this as perhaps of 25 assistance to you, Officer. If you look at --
2951 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What is it 2 though, Mr. Scullion? 3 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's the notes for 4 Constable Trevor -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 6 excerpt though? 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- Richardson. It's 8 not yet an exhibit. It's Inquiry Document 1000858. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 10 excerpt from his notes? 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's an excerpt. 12 It's page 30 from those notes. And I understand Officer 13 Richardson will be called. I don't know that it's 14 necessary at this point. I just want to see if it is -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- helps to refresh 17 his memory. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 20 Q: At eight o'clock there's an entry 21 that says "Updated with Constable Dew"; do you see that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It goes through a number of things. 24 It says: 25 "Advised of eight (8) to ten (10)
2961 Natives back at corner of Army Camp 2 Road East Parkway with baseball bats, 3 et cetera. They apparently damaged a 4 vehicle as it drove by. Constable Sam 5 Poole taking a statement. " 6 And there's a note: 7 "Discussion held re taking property 8 again by ERT [et cetera]." 9 Do you recall having that discussion with 10 Constable Richardson? 11 A: Or Sergeant Richardson -- 12 Q: Sergeant Richardson. 13 A: No, I'm sorry. I don't. 14 Q: You don't recall being briefed on 15 that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: There's an entry at 20:20 that says: 18 "Constable Dew to go and see Constable 19 Poole re statement to confirm damage, 20 I.D. anyone and strength." 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did you under -- what does that mean 23 "I.D. anyone and strength"? 24 Do you recall that instruction? 25 A: I don't recall that instruction. No.
2971 Well, I -- I mean, I recall that instruction to a -- to a 2 point. I mean he advised me or assigned me to go to the 3 scene of the mischief on Army Camp Road. 4 Q: Did he ask you to take a drive by the 5 sandy parking lot -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- on the way? 8 A: I don't -- no. I don't recall him -- 9 Q: And did you? 10 A: -- doing that. No, I did not. 11 Q: You went a different direction to 12 where -- 13 A: I went straight down Army Camp Road-- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: -- from 21 Highway. 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Again, Commissioner, 17 I'm in your hands. I don't know that it's necessary to 18 mark as an exhibit because I -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 20 think it is at this stage. 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think it'll all 22 probably go in with Sergeant Richardson. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 25 Q: If I go back to Tab 18. Do you have
2981 that before you? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: The third page, page 162? 4 A: I'm sorry, to page what? 5 Q: 162, top right corner. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually the Witness 7 needs to -- what I've -- the witness has in his book the 8 actual exhibit which is a little different than the 9 Inquiry Document in a different format. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So it's page 11 3. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: So it's page 3. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: If you go back behind 15 the yellow page -- 16 THE WITNESS: Oh, I see. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- Constable Dew. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's a copy of 1013 20 and it's page 3. It's 162 at the top of the page. In 21 essence they're the same but they're in a different 22 format. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think we're there. 25
2991 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 2 Q: Do you have page 3 in front of you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And in the first two (2) 5 pages you're relating the information that you've 6 received directly from Gerald George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Then you speak of women from the Army 9 Base advising they're moving children out tonight? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Then if you go down three (3) lines, 12 is it Sergeant Graham? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: It says: 15 "Maybe that's the unfriendlies are 16 showing up from Kettle Point." 17 And you say: 18 "Absolutely positively." 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And a few other things. Who are the 21 unfriendlies from Kettle Point that you thought were 22 showing up that night? 23 A: I don't -- I don't know. I don't 24 recall. 25 Q: All right. So you can't help us with
3001 what that term relates to or whether or not there was 2 some concern about people from Kettle Point coming -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- to the Provincial Park? 5 A: Could have been the case, I -- I 6 don't recall. 7 Q: Well, it certainly seems to be the 8 case, that there's a concern shared by both you and 9 Sergeant Graham about, quote, "unfriendlies," unquote, 10 coming from Kettle Point that evening. 11 A: I would agree with you. Yeah, right. 12 Q: But you can't help with where that 13 information may have come from? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 15 you have an objection? 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 17 hate to interrupt, but if -- if Officer Dew could be 18 directed to page 4 of that call, it may give him some 19 assistance about the information he had. It's just 20 helpful sometimes in these questions if the officer is 21 directed to the whole -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- call rather than a 24 little section of it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you
3011 for pointing that out, Ms. Jones. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: If you put that line, 3 especially the portion about halfway down where there's a 4 question: 5 "Yeah. That makes sense too." 6 And he goes on to relate what he's been 7 told. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would it be 9 helpful, Mr. Scullion, if you referred him to that 10 passage as well. 11 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's not unhelpful 12 for me. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's not 14 helpful for you? 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's not unhelpful. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unhelpful. 17 So if it's helpful to the witness -- 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 20 Q: So I'll -- I'll carry on. If you 21 take a look at the next page there's reference to 22 councillors -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- from Kettle Point, and threats 25 made.
3021 A: Right. 2 Q: Your counsel has referred you to that 3 section. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: No, I... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 9 Q: I have a lot of assistance. I'm 10 hoping that it helps the officer. 11 I have referred you to the comment about 12 unfriendlies, I've been asked to refer you to the comment 13 regarding councillors. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Does that assist, in any way, in your 16 recollection, of who the unfriendlies are that you're 17 referring to the page before, or where the information 18 comes from, that these are unfriendlies coming from KP? 19 A: I would say that I think that 20 information comes from Gerald George, and I say that 21 because it seems to be in context here, but also because 22 in the same notes that I make about the list of weapons 23 and so on that he told me about, I also have a note that 24 says: 25 "Making gas bombs. Believe they will
3031 burn buildings on the Base tonight." 2 And that's as -- that's as far as I could 3 go with that. I can't say anything more about it than 4 that. 5 Q: Right. So your -- your evidence, as 6 to the best that you can recollect, is that this 7 information regarding unfriendlies coming from Kettle 8 Point is again coming from your meeting or discussions 9 with Gerald George? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. At any point in time did 12 he tell you he was a councillor at Kettle Point? 13 A: I don't believe so, no. 14 Q: Right. At any point in time did he 15 tell you that he'd written a newspaper article 16 criticizing those that were occupying the Army Camp in 17 August, a couple of weeks earlier, one (1) week earlier? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. He never mentioned that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did he ever mention that the Chief 22 and Council were critical of the occupiers in the Camp 23 and in the Park? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Were you aware of that at the time
3041 that you met with Gerald George? 2 A: I don't believe I was, no. 3 Q: Sergeant Wright, Inspector Carson, no 4 one had indicated to you that in fact there was this 5 difficulty, this difference of opinion between the Chief 6 and Council at Kettle Point and those that were occupying 7 the lands? 8 A: No, I don't believe so. 9 Q: So you weren't aware of that when you 10 got all of this information from a councillor at Kettle 11 Point? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: All right. Looking back on it, would 14 that have influenced your decision whether or not to 15 refer to him as an anonymous source of this information? 16 A: I don't know that -- that it would or 17 wouldn't. I think I -- I probably immediately would have 18 had the same concern for his safety, that the information 19 he was -- he was giving us was certainly of a nature that 20 could cause him problems in the future. 21 Q: Oh, I appreciate that. But it would 22 only cause him problems in the future if it was disclosed 23 by the OPP? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Correct?
3051 A: Right. 2 Q: Because you were reporting internally 3 to your bosses about information that this person, this 4 councillor at Kettle Point, was giving to you on the 5 roadside. 6 A: Yeah. I agree. 7 Q: All right. You'd agree that at the 8 time, weapons in the Park were a concern for the OPP? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You're aware that the information 11 that was being provided to you, and that you were 12 referring over to your bosses, was important in 13 determining that risk of weapons in the Park. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did Gerald George ask you not to 16 reveal his name as the source of this information? 17 A: Not -- not in so many words. But 18 what -- what I recall him saying to me, his first words 19 were, You didn't hear this from me, but... 20 Q: But here's a lot of really 21 interesting information I'm about to give you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Right. Report it to your superiors 24 because I think it's important. 25 A: That's the gist of it, yes.
3061 Q: I also note, from your examination- 2 in-chief, and your notes, as well as the scribe notes, 3 that it -- I'll suggest to you a key time, 10:44 p.m. 4 that night, you had an opportunity to speak with 5 Inspector Linton about this information, this specific 6 information that you got from both Constable Poole and 7 Gerald George. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: Right? And that discussion, I take 10 it, from the notes, involved you informing Inspector 11 Linton that the incident that occurred at the Parking lot 12 was simply Stewart George throwing a stone at Gerald 13 George's car. 14 A: I -- I'm sorry I have to ask you do 15 that, can you run that question by me one more time? 16 Q: At 10:44 you had an opportunity to 17 discuss this incident with Inspector Linton. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: You shared with him your information 20 that it was an issue of mischief, that it was a stone 21 being thrown at a car. 22 A: I -- I don't recall that specifically 23 but I think we heard that tape this morning. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: Right.
3071 Q: What was Inspector Linton's response 2 or reaction when you told him that that was what you 3 understood the incident to be? 4 A: I -- I don't recall his -- his 5 response. I didn't recall having that conversation with 6 him until I heard the tape today. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: That's right, Mr. 8 Commissioner. Just to be clear, that was an entry from 9 the scribe note that was read to the officer. There was 10 no tape regarding that. That was simply an entry in the 11 scribe note. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It was an 13 entry in the scribe note? 14 MS. KAREN JONES: Yes. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think it's an 16 entry in the scribe note as well as the Constable's 17 notes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But it 19 wasn't a tape, I think -- 20 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It wasn't a tape. I 21 know he referred to it as a tape but it was simply a -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- a notation at 24 10:44. 25 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't have a note in
3081 my notes about that, sorry, that I can see. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 4 Q: I think we can argue about that 5 later. 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: It's in agreement that the -- 8 A: Oh sure. 9 Q: -- discussion took place -- 10 A: Absolutely it did. 11 Q: -- at 10:44. 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: All right. Were you aware at any 14 point in time of a photo album that was prepared by the 15 OPP with pictures of those that were in occupation of the 16 Park? 17 A: At some time, yes. 18 Q: All right. At what point in time 19 were you made aware of that? 20 A: It was well after the fact. 21 Q: You weren't involved in the 22 preparation of that photo album? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You weren't asked to ID any 25 individuals that were in the Park?
3091 A: No. 2 Q: You indicated that as of the point 3 and time that you were at the hospital, that things and I 4 forget your exact term, but they changed for you. And 5 that you didn't necessarily lose control but it simply 6 changed for you. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do I take it that part of that 9 change, or one of the reasons why that occurred, was your 10 witnessing what was been referred to at times as the 11 takedown of the passengers of the vehicle that arrived at 12 the hospital? 13 A: Well that was certainly part and 14 parcel of it. Things just seemed to come so fast. There 15 was very little time to try to make sense of it, I guess, 16 in my mind. 17 I was -- I was feeling overwhelmed. 18 Q: Right. You were asked to do a number 19 of things very quickly, following what occurred in the 20 Parking lot, correct? 21 A: Yes, yes. 22 Q: One (1) of those things was to track 23 what appeared to be, in your mind anyways, a white car 24 that was involved in that event, to the hospital, 25 correct?
3101 A: I don't know to track it is the right 2 word, maybe to -- to meet it, to see it at the hospital. 3 I was sent to the hospital not to track the car. I think 4 there were other officers who were tasked with that. 5 Q: Right. You made a call and asked 6 people to ask the dispatch to identify or at least advise 7 you if there was a report of a stolen car. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it was done for the purpose of 10 tracking whoever might be arriving at the hospital with a 11 gunshot victim. 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: Correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Why did you ask those 16 specific terms that they might be boosting a car as 17 opposed to simply saying -- asking for help from anyone 18 along the route? 19 A: I don't know why I chose that -- that 20 language. I don't know, I guess it's a possibility that 21 they wanted to have clear off. 22 I suppose that the possibility exists that 23 they could knock on the door and ask for help and if that 24 was the case, then maybe the police would find out about 25 that faster than if the car was stolen.
3111 Q: Right. And you'd want to know about 2 that, as well as if a car was stolen, correct? 3 A: Sure. Exactly. 4 Q: That's something you'd want to be 5 advised of? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: But you'll agree with me that that's 8 not the question that you asked. You simply wanted to 9 know if they stole a car en route, you wanted to be 10 advised of it? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Were you ever advised that they had 13 asked for help along the way? 14 A: I know that I found out that 15 eventually, but I -- that was days after. 16 Q: Okay. It wasn't at the time that you 17 found that out. 18 A: I don't believe so, no. 19 Q: All right. Thank you, Mr. 20 Commissioner, those are all my questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Scullion. 23 On behalf of the First Nation...? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
3121 2 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: Good afternoon. 3 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 5 afternoon. 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 8 Q: My name is Colleen Johnson, I 9 represent the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. I'm 10 here as agent for the Chiefs of Ontario and so represent 11 Gerald George. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: I just have a couple of areas that I 16 want to ask you questions about. With regards to your 17 note taking, you've indicated on a couple of occasions 18 today that you were just trying to document as well as 19 possible, the things that were going on and so there were 20 notations made that you weren't even sure why. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: I'm going to ask you to turn to Tab 4 23 at page 33 of your notes. These are from September 6th 24 and we'll start with 8:25. 25 A: Yes.
3131 Q: Now, just getting into that. If you 2 could just tell me with regards to your procedure for 3 taking notes, do you recall when these notes were taken? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: I don't recall exactly when I took 8 those notes, but they would have been some time in close 9 proximity to the event. 10 Q: Now, your note at 8:25 covers a 11 couple of areas; is that correct? 12 First with regards to the women or that 13 something's going to happen. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Female Natives leaving. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And then a point, some lines 18 below that, receiving information from an anonymous 19 source. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: Okay. And then there's not another 22 note and I believe Mr. Millar asked you about this, until 23 21:57? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: Would you agree that you didn't take
3141 the notes while you were speaking with Mr. George? I'm 2 sorry, I should back up here. 3 You agree that you've already identified 4 that the anonymous source referred to in these notes is 5 Gerald George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Would you agree that you did 8 not take these notes while you were speaking with him? 9 A: I don't know if I can -- if I would 10 agree with that or not. It's possible that I did, but I 11 simply don't recall. 12 Q: Okay. With regards to having an 13 anonymous source is it generally the practice to say "an 14 anonymous source" or would it be more regular procedure 15 to include that name in there and then redact it? 16 A: No, normally I wouldn't -- wouldn't 17 write their name in my notes. 18 Q: So this is the general procedure that 19 you would follow for a -- for an anonymous source? 20 A: Generally speaking, if you're dealing 21 with a -- with a confidential informant, let's say, you 22 keep a -- you keep that information in a separate 23 notebook. 24 Q: Okay. And did you have a separate 25 notebook with regards to these?
3151 A: No. 2 Q: Did anyone else know the identity 3 other than Constable Poole with regards to who the 4 informant was? 5 A: Oh, I think that people did come to 6 know who it was, yes. 7 Q: At the time did anyone else know? 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: How was it that you came to speak to 10 Mr. George? 11 A: Well, I was sent down there to -- to 12 do just that. And as -- 13 Q: You were sent because of the mischief 14 complaint? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 16 think -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you 19 finished your answer; did you? 20 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'm sorry. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 22 you've got to give him time. 23 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 25 THE WITNESS: I was sent down there
3161 because of the mischief and -- and while I was down there 2 I spoke with him. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 5 Q: Okay. You were sent down there 6 because of the mischief complaint? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And there was a statement taken by 9 Constable Poole with regards to the mischief? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: Were you present for that statement? 12 A: No. My memory is the statement was 13 complete when I got there or near complete. 14 Q: Do you recall reviewing the 15 statement? 16 A: I don't recall that I read the 17 statement there. 18 Q: Would it have been fairly normal for 19 you to review it given that you were investigating the 20 mischief? 21 A: Oh, no it's -- I wasn't investigating 22 the mischief. I was simply sent down there to get the 23 statement. 24 Q: But then a statement was taken and 25 you didn't read it?
3171 A: I don't believe I ever did. 2 Q: Then if the statement was already 3 taken there must have been another purpose for you to 4 speak to Mr. Gerald George at that point; is that 5 correct? 6 A: I don't know that I had another 7 purpose in mind to speak to Mr. George, no. 8 Q: Were you asked -- were you speaking - 9 - intending to speak to him specifically as an informant? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. So Constable Poole never 12 indicated that he had information for you? That Gerald 13 George had information for you? 14 A: Oh he may have. I don't recall him 15 saying that. But he may have, yes. 16 Q: Now, you've indicated that he was 17 calm, Mr. George? 18 A: Yes, that's my memory. 19 Q: You found him fairly forthcoming? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you have an independent 22 recollection of that? 23 A: Parts. Yes. 24 Q: Can you tell me who else was around 25 while you were speaking to him?
3181 A: When I think back to that -- to that 2 time it seems that in my mind, somehow, Sam Poole had -- 3 had drifted further -- he was drifted away from us and I 4 had -- I was talking to Gerald George almost privately, 5 the two (2) of us. 6 Q: Now, you'd agree that you take notes 7 to refresh your memory? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And that people's memories can play 10 tricks on them? 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: And that if something's in your notes 13 then you would agree that that's accurate? 14 A: I would hope. Yes. 15 Q: If it -- even if it's in conflict 16 with what you -- 17 A: Your memory. 18 Q: -- think you recall at that point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Would you agree that it's possible 21 that you spoke to Mr. George in a car? 22 A: It's really not my memory. My memory 23 is really standing talking to him but... 24 Q: Is it possible that you -- it's been 25 ten (10) years, that you were in a car when you had this
3191 conversation? 2 A: You know what, I would say that I 3 suppose that anything is possible. But it's really not 4 my memory. 5 Q: All right. So you're having a 6 conversation with Gerald George and you believe that 7 you're taking information with regards to a mischief? 8 A: I believe that I was sent down there 9 in regards to a mischief. But when I actually had my 10 conversation with Mr. George it's not about mischief. 11 Q: Okay. But initially you start -- is 12 it your evidence that you start that conversation as 13 being about a mischief incident? 14 A: I don't recall saying that. 15 Q: I'm asking if you were, again, 16 specifically speaking to him regarding the mischief, was 17 that your intent or were you speaking to him because he 18 had information to provide you? 19 A: I was speaking to him because he had 20 information to provide me. 21 Q: With regards to weapons? 22 A: I didn't know that that's what it was 23 going to be but when he started the conversation with me 24 that's -- he opened with the line: 25 "You didn't hear this from me but."
3201 And then he -- then he told me about the 2 weaponry inside the Park. 3 Q: Okay. And did Constable Poole give 4 you any indication as to why he wanted you to speak to 5 him? 6 A: As I said, he may have, I -- I simply 7 don't recall. 8 Q: And you didn't make any notes in that 9 regard? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Do you recall approximately how long 12 the conversation was? 13 A: No, I don't. Not long. 14 Q: You've indicated that you don't 15 recall any information about him being a Band Councillor 16 or writing an article to the paper or anything like that? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: At Tab 19 is the interview report of 19 Gerald George, and I would assume that you had that at 20 that point? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I would direct you to about the 23 middle of the page, it says -- you can see where it says: 24 "Stewart George, nickname Worm, 25 motioned for me."
3211 It continues on: 2 "And he was angry over an article that 3 I put in the -- in the Force Standard." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you see that? 6 A: Yes, I do. 7 Q: So is it possible that you actually 8 did have that information at the time? 9 A: I don't -- I don't recall that I read 10 this statement. 11 Q: But Mr. George was clearly 12 forthcoming with that, would you agree? 13 A: With Constable Poole, yes. 14 Q: It's not like he was hiding who he 15 was or what his relationship to these people were? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. So with regards to the 18 reliability of the information that you were receiving 19 from Mr. George, did you make inquiries as to how he got 20 this information? 21 A: No. No, I don't -- I don't think I 22 did. 23 Q: Did you make any inquiries as to when 24 the last time he was in the Park or the Camp? 25 A: I may have, I don't recall. I don't
3221 recall. 2 Q: Do you know if you made any inquiries 3 with regards to whether he had actually visualized these 4 weapons? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Would you agree that none of that 7 information is in your notes, as to whether you made 8 those inquiries? 9 A: No. I would agree with you, yeah. 10 Q: Would you agree that the notes are 11 fairly sparse for the kind of information that was 12 obtained that day? 13 A: I would say that -- that my notes 14 contain the pertinent information or at least what I 15 thought at that time was pertinent. 16 Q: Which is simply the existence of 17 weapons, not anything else? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Because that's really what you needed 20 to know, is that correct? 21 A: From what he told me that was the 22 most pertinent information, yes. 23 Q: But in your mind as an intelligence 24 officer it was very important for you to know whether 25 there were weapons there or not, would you agree?
3231 A: I -- I don't think it's fair to call 2 me an intelligence officer because I really -- I really 3 wasn't an intelligence officer -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: --- but certainly once I -- once I 6 received that information, to me it was worthy of note 7 and I wrote it down and -- and then called it in to the 8 command post. 9 Q: And it wasn't the first time that you 10 had received information in that regard; is that correct? 11 A: About weapons? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Right. I had heard -- I had heard a 14 -- sort of a third party story way back on July 29th, I 15 believe, 1995. 16 Q: Yes. And on July 29th the 17 information, and you can find that report at Tab 5, it's 18 Exhibit P-119 for Inquiry Document 2003761, with My 19 Friend's assistance, at page 2, just about the middle of 20 the page there's a line that starts with a single word 21 from the previous sentence: "Camp." 22 A: Right. 23 Q: "They proceeded to say that they had 24 some rocket launchers." 25 Do you see that?
3241 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, was this information made 3 public, that there was a suspicion of rocket launchers 4 being there? 5 A: Made public? 6 Q: Where would this information have 7 gone to from there? 8 A: I don't know where it went after the 9 statement was taken. 10 Q: All right. But it wasn't common 11 knowledge, amongst anybody other than a select few OPP, 12 is that a fair assumption? 13 A: I would think that would be fair, 14 yes. 15 Q: All right. Now, there's a 16 conversation between Graham and yourself at Tab 18 on 17 page 160. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And towards the bottom of the page, 23 it's you speaking and you say: 24 "Okay, listen." 25 A: Yes.
3251 Q: "I just talked to a fellow down here 2 who's been in an eye balled [and 3 perhaps that's 'been in and 4 eyeballed']" 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: "Some of the weaponry that they have. 7 Do you have an update on any of this 8 stuff." 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you recall making that statement? 11 A: I recall that I made the phone call, 12 yes. 13 Q: Okay. Now, you're indicating that 14 he's actually seen these weapons. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Okay. And then farther on to page 17 161, your second line: 18 "He has seen four (4) SKF's." 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And then: 21 "SKF's, yeah, those are Russian semi- 22 automatics." 23 And then you go on farther down: 24 "Two (2) Ruger mini 14s." 25 You don't indicate in your notes, back to
3261 page 33 of your notes, which are from Tab 4, anyplace 2 that he's seen those things. Is that correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And you don't recall making those 5 Inquiries as to whether he had actually visualized these 6 weapons; is that correct? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Would you agree that you were fairly 9 keen to get the information out about the existence of 10 weapons? 11 A: It was important to get that 12 information to the command post, yes. 13 Q: Would you agree that perhaps the 14 information that he specifically had eyeballed those 15 things was not completely accurate? 16 A: No. He told me he had seen them. 17 Q: But you indicated to me that you had 18 not made any inquiries as to -- 19 A: Right. 20 Q: -- whether he had really seen them. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: Would you agree that there's no 23 mention of unfriendlies from Kettle Point showing up any 24 place in your notes? 25 A: Yeah. The only note that I have of
3271 -- that is along that line is they will burn some 2 buildings on the Base at night that we talked about 3 earlier. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Yes, but there's no reference to 8 anything with regards to Kettle Point. 9 A: Not in my notes, no. I'm sorry, I'm 10 talking about the quest -- line of questioning earlier 11 this afternoon. 12 Q: And so the first place that I see the 13 unfriendlies from Kettle Point mentioned are with regards 14 to -- it's Graham on page 162, again at Tab 18. 15 A: Right. 16 Q: Towards the bottom of the page. And 17 where does that come from? 18 A: The term 'unfriendlies'? 19 Q: Yes. Where does the idea that -- 20 that -- and then on page 163: 21 "That's what they're -- that's what 22 they're going to do, apparently, if any 23 more of the Kettle Point Band Council 24 shows up there, they're going to start 25 burning buildings. I don't know if
3281 that -- if that's a ruse to draw your 2 attention away from that corner down 3 there." 4 Where does that information come from? 5 How is it all of a sudden there and Graham seems to have 6 this information, because he's the first one (1) that 7 brings it up. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You ask a 9 question -- 10 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: I'm sorry. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you have 12 to give the witness a chance to answer it. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: 15 Q: Where does that information come 16 from? 17 A: Which information is that, now? 18 Q: That there are unfriendlies coming 19 from Kettle Point, showing up from Kettle Point? 20 A: Well, from Rob Graham. 21 Q: You didn't have that information; is 22 that correct? 23 A: Not that I -- not that I recall and 24 not that I have a note of, right. 25 Q: So that information did not come from
3291 Gerald George, would you agree with me? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: That term -- that term probably did 6 not come from him, right. 7 Q: Now you've indicated you weren't 8 aware that he was a Band councillor; is that correct? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And yet on page 163 again at Tab 18: 11 "If anymore of the Kettle Point Band 12 council shows up there they're going to 13 start burning buildings." 14 A: Right. 15 Q: How does Kettle Point Band council 16 come into play here? 17 A: Well it had to have been information 18 that I got from him. But I -- I don't recall that. 19 Q: So you can surmise but you don't 20 know? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And you don't have anything to say 23 that Gerald George said anything about Band council 24 showing up there. 25 A: All I can tell you is that the
3301 information that I'm talking about in this conversation 2 with Rob Graham is in the context of my conversation with 3 Gerald George. 4 And no, I don't have any notes to -- to go 5 along with that but... 6 Q: You've indicated that you don't 7 recall having a book of pictures to show to Gerald 8 George? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: I'm reading from Gerald George's 11 transcript from January 13th, 2005 and on that page 101 12 and he's indicated that after speaking with Constable 13 Poole he spoke with a second police officer. And I would 14 suggest that that is you. 15 And starting at line 21: 16 "Then he -- he said they were having 17 some trouble with some of the people in 18 there. And if I could, he pulled out a 19 book, I don't know where he got it, but 20 the pictures, but they had a lot of 21 people's pictures in that book." 22 And then later, for My Friends assistance, 23 on page 102 at line 8. Well I'll start with line 7: 24 "A book of -- they must have been taken 25 because some of them looked like
3311 helicopter shots or something. 2 Anyway I just pointed. I said that's 3 Stewart George. That's the guy that 4 threw the rock." 5 Is it possible that there actually was a 6 book there and that you're not recalling that you had a 7 book of pictures? 8 A: I didn't have a book. 9 Q: How would he know the existence of a 10 book if there was not one (1) there? 11 A: I don't know. 12 Q: He would not be privy to some kind of 13 private information with regards to the OPP. 14 Would you agree with that? 15 A: Well you wouldn't think so, no. 16 Q: Would you agree that this is a 17 description of what sounds like a fairly official kind of 18 book of pictures? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you have -- you're absolutely 21 certain there was no book there? 22 A: Positive. I didn't have a book. 23 Q: And -- and you don't believe that 24 there were any other officers who spoke with him that 25 evening?
3321 A: Other than Sam Poole, no. 2 Q: Okay. Do you know if Sam Poole had a 3 book of pictures? 4 A: I don't know what Sam had. 5 Q: And then at page 104 he indicates and 6 I'm at line 8 that he was asked questions like whose the 7 leader of the group? That's at line -- starts at line 6 8 and then line 7 and he said: 9 "Do you know if they have any firearms 10 in the Base or in the Park?" 11 Do recall asking him those questions? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Or similar type questions? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And then at line 13 he says: 16 "I said when I was in there I used to 17 hunt." 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Do you recall him talking about 20 hunting when he was in the Park or in the Camp? 21 A: No, I don't but he may have. 22 Q: Do you recall him talking about his 23 own weaponry? 24 A: No. 25 Q: With regards to your notes, you would
3331 agree that there's no mention there of rockets? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Which however did come from the 4 interview from July 29th; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm now at page 104 of Mr. 7 George's transcript. And at line 21 he says: 8 "And then he asked me, Do they have any 9 anti-tank rockets? And I looked at him 10 and I said, What do you mean, anti-tank 11 rockets?" 12 Do you recall asking him about those? 13 A: No. 14 Q: He goes on to say: 15 "You mean laws..." 16 And that's phonetic, I don't know what 17 that is. 18 "...disposable RPG-7; what are you 19 talking about? He said..." 20 Mr. George says, "he said:" 21 "...we had reports that they have an 22 anti-tank rocket in here." 23 You don't recall having that conversation 24 with him? 25 A: No.
3341 Q: Is it possible that that conversation 2 occurred? 3 A: Really -- I really don't believe that 4 it did. I -- I have to tell you that on July 29th, when 5 we heard the story about that, I -- I dismissed it in my 6 mind. I didn't think that that was possible, but. 7 Q: Then if it didn't occur, how did 8 Gerald George get the information about the anti-tank 9 rockets? 10 A: I don't know. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 13 appreciate that there is, you know, big attempts being 14 made here to represent Mr. George and I'm sure we all 15 appreciate that -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: -- but this officer 18 can't say -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can't say. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: -- where Mr. George's-- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 22 right. 23 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: With the greatest 24 respect, this is not about representing Mr. George. This 25 is about how does Mr. George have this information. If
3351 what he's saying isn't -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He can't 3 answer that question. 4 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: -- so. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He can just 6 answer what he knows. Just answer what he knows. 7 MS. COLLEEN JOHNSON: That's fine. Those 8 are my questions, sir. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 10 very much. 11 Yes, Mr. Roy...? 12 MR. JULIAN ROY: Good afternoon, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 afternoon. 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: I'm right -- we're right 17 on schedule. I'm -- My Friends have been very thorough 18 in -- in -- I'm -- gratefully I'm going to be a lot 19 briefer than I'd expected, but I do have some -- some 20 questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Roy. 23 MR. JULIAN ROY: I have a hand out too, 24 which is a little bit unofficial. It's a -- I cut and 25 pasted it from the Net. It's Section 430(1) of the
3361 Criminal Code of Canada, regarding mischief. And the 2 issue may come up in my cross-examination. 3 I've circulated it to all counsel. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 MR. JULIAN ROY: But I have a copy for 6 you and for the witness. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 8 Mr. Roy. 9 MR. JULIAN ROY: I don't have one for Mr. 10 Millar, unfortunately, but I do -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 12 think Mr. Millar needs one. 13 MR. JULIAN ROY: I did circulate it by e- 14 mail, so I would refer My Friend to that. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 17 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 18 A: Good afternoon. 19 Q: My name is Julian Roy and I'm one of 20 the counsel for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto. And 21 what I want to ask you a little bit about is -- is your 22 entries at page -- pages 34 and 35 of your notebook, 23 which is at Tab 4 of your -- your documents? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And some of -- this issue has been
3371 canvassed very generally, but I have some very specific 2 questions about your entries at 21:57 and following? 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: All right. And it's the -- the 5 reference to calling the Sarnia Jail and speaking with 6 the supervisor. 7 You recall that it was Mark Wright that 8 gave you that instruction to do that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And did Mark Wright give you 11 any information as to why he was asking you to do that? 12 A: I think at that time I had an 13 understanding that there was -- they were proposing 14 marching an ERT team down to the sandy lane -- or the 15 sandy parking lot outside the Park -- 16 Q: Yes, 17 A: -- and that there was perhaps going 18 to be some arrests made of people there and he wanted to 19 know how many people the jail could hold and if they 20 could assist in transport. 21 Q: Okay. And it's at Tab 13, there are 22 some excerpts of your documents, there's some excerpts 23 from the scribe notes. And if you could go to page 79 of 24 that, please? 25 Are you at page 79?
3381 A: Yes. 2 Q: There's an entry at 22:12; you see 3 that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Which is less than fifteen (15) 6 minutes after -- or about fifteen (15) minutes after your 7 notes reflect that you make the call to the Sarnia Jail; 8 do you see that? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And it's -- the entry says: 11 "Mark Wright advises Sarnia Jail has 12 one full wing for Natives. One 13 prisoner van available for twelve (12) 14 people at a time." 15 Do you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: That's consistent with the 18 information that you received from the Sarnia Jail when 19 you spoke to the superintendent? 20 A: Fairly. Yes. 21 Q: All right. And did you have an 22 understanding as to how -- how many individuals can one 23 (1) wing of the Sarnia Jail accommodate? 24 A: I didn't. And that was part of the 25 purpose of the call.
3391 Q: Okay. 2 A: And they advised they had a van that 3 would hold ten (10), and in my notes there's a question 4 mark after that. 5 Q: Okay. But in terms of how many 6 people could be accommodated at the Sarnia jail, does 7 this note assist you in terms of how many individuals 8 could actually be accommodated there? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. Now, I'm right in assuming 11 that, ordinarily, when arrest is conducted on an 12 individual they're taken back to the police station 13 that's closest to where they're arrested; is that right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And then normally they're processed 16 there, correct? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: And then they're taken down to the 19 police lock-up that's within the police station, 20 normally, right? 21 A: Well in a big city police department, 22 yes. In the OPP Detachment it's around the corner. 23 Q: Okay. Well the OPP Detachment at 24 Forest has a lock-up facility there, right? 25 A: I think at that time they had two
3401 cells. 2 Q: Okay. And that was going to be my 3 next question. So there's two cells there? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And then there would also be the 6 Grand Bend Detachment in the general vicinity also, 7 right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you have an understanding as to 10 how many cells in the lock-up at the Grand Bend 11 Detachment there were? 12 A: I don't think that I ever worked out 13 of that new building. I'm not sure how many cells there 14 are in there. 15 Q: Okay. So in any event, in your mind, 16 what you were trying to figure out was to find out if you 17 could get more accommodations beyond what was in those 18 two lock-ups; is that right? 19 A: No, in my mind I was calling the 20 Sarnia jail, as I was instructed. 21 Q: All right. At -- in your notes at 22 22:05 there's a reflection of you advising Detective 23 Sergeant Wright of your information from the Sarnia jail, 24 correct? 25 A: Right.
3411 Q: Right. And it's right after that 2 that you speak to the Crown Attorney -- 3 A: Right. 4 Q: -- Diane Foster, right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And your evidence so far is that your 7 discussion about possible charges had something to do 8 with mischief; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you were directed to contact 11 Diane Foster by Mark Wright, correct? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Now, as a peace officer you don't 14 always consult a Crown Attorney concerning what charges 15 you're going to lay against somebody, do you? 16 A: Not always. 17 Q: No. It happens from time to time, 18 right? 19 A: Well it happens fairly routinely in 20 criminal matters, yes. 21 Q: Okay. When there's some kind of 22 legal complexity to the matter you might consult a Crown 23 attorney, right? 24 A: Well, I would say that, in fairness, 25 in Lambton County at least, we fairly routinely discuss
3421 with the Crown Attorney. 2 Q: Okay. Now when you were -- you were 3 the crime guy in terms of the evening of September 6th, 4 right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And one of the things that you were 7 directed to do was to go and gather a statement 8 concerning a mischief against Gerald George, right? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And you didn't consult a Crown 11 Attorney regarding that mischief charge, did you? 12 A: No, but I wasn't investigating that. 13 But, no, I did not call -- 14 Q: But, you're not aware of any -- any 15 consultation of the Crown -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- concerning that mischief? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And that's because that mischief 20 charge, as you understood it, was going to be a pretty 21 straight forward matter, somebody's broken something -- 22 A: Sure. 23 Q: -- right? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And that's the kind of simple offence
3431 that normally you wouldn't consult a Crown Attorney 2 about, right? 3 A: Sure, I'd agree with that. 4 Q: Now, do you have the Criminal Code 5 section in front of you, sir? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Now the type of mischief that 8 you were talking about in terms of the Gerald George 9 incident is the straight forward mischief in Section 10 430(1)(a) and (b). 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Where some type of property is 13 physically destroyed, right? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And that's mischief that -- the way 16 that mischief is committed, that's the one you're most 17 familiar with, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And if you look at (c) and (d) you 20 would probably have less familiarity with those two (2) 21 sections -- subsections of the Criminal Code, right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. You might have even have laid 24 that type of charge in your life, right? 25 A: I may have in Grand Bend, but, yeah,
3441 you're right, not very often. 2 Q: Yeah. That's sort of an exotic way 3 of committing mischief, it doesn't come up very often, 4 right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And in terms of consulting the Crown 7 Attorney regarding mischief, it's likely that you were 8 consulting her regarding subsections (c) and (d) of the 9 Criminal Code, right? 10 A: I would believe so, yes. 11 Q: Yeah. And that's a form of mischief 12 that can be committed without destroying any property, 13 it's just where you occupy or interfere with somebody 14 else's use of their property, right? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: And that refreshes you as to what you 17 were discussing with the Crown, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Thank you. And you would have 20 reported back what you discussed with Diane Foster to 21 Mark Wright? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That only makes sense because he's 24 the one that sent you on that task, right? 25 A: Right.
3451 Q: Okay. Now, you mentioned, and I 2 appreciated your candour in this, you mentioned that you 3 were becoming a little bit unglued at -- 4 A: At the hospital. 5 Q: -- the scene of the hospital? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Alright. And I'm going to suggest to 8 you that you seem like a pretty unflappable sort, that 9 this ungluing that you're describing isn't something that 10 just happened all of a sudden on the -- at the hospital, 11 was it? 12 A: In my mind, yes. I -- I like to 13 think that I was in fairly good shape until that point. 14 Q: Okay. Well I'm -- I'm going to 15 direct you to -- to something again in the scribe notes-- 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: -- which is at Tab 12, just to see if 18 this -- sorry, Tab 13, just to see if this refreshes your 19 memory on some of the things that might have been going 20 on. At page 59 of the scribe notes, are you with me? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: 59. And this is an entry -- at the 23 top of page 59, it's an entry at 10:19 hours, and I 24 understand that that's September 6, 1995. If you can 25 take a look at the -- do you see the second large block
3461 of typing there? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And if you look -- I don't want to 4 read the whole passage, but if you -- you see where it 5 says: 6 "In chopper getting a better look at 7 things." 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I want to take you to after that. It 10 says -- the next complete sentence: 11 "Today start on briefs, enter four (4) 12 mischiefs to cruiser --" 13 A: Right. 14 Q: "-- to update it on OMPPAC, get it 15 done today. 16 JOHN CARSON: If getting swamped, we 17 will get another steno up here." 18 A: Right. 19 Q: "Trevor". And just if I can stop you 20 there; who's Trevor? 21 A: Trevor Richardson. 22 Q: And he's the person who was your 23 immediate supervisor? 24 A: At times, yes. 25 Q: Okay.
3471 "TREVOR: Have to address getting Mark 2 Dew changed over." 3 A: Right. 4 Q: "Get someone to do video at night. 5 Replace Constable Dew for a few days." 6 Do you see that? 7 A: Yes. Yeah. 8 Q: You -- were you part of that 9 conversation reflected in the scribe notes? 10 A: I don't believe so, no. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: My Friend is right, I've skipped a 15 line -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 17 MR. JULIAN ROY: -- which is important. 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, I -- I see, yeah. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 21 Q: Okay. After it says "Get" -- I'm 22 going to just start at: 23 "Get someone to do video at night." 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Okay.
3481 "Get someone to do video at night. 2 Constable Dew needs some time off." 3 A: Right. 4 Q: "Constable Martin can replace 5 Constable 6 Dew for a few days." 7 Do you see that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Now, you don't recall 10 being part of this conversation, do you? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And in fact it's -- from your 13 evidence you were not on duty when this was going on? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Does this refresh you though, that 16 you might have had some kind of discussion with somebody 17 about you needing some time off? 18 A: I may well have. I had been -- I had 19 been camping and had not had a whole lot of sleep. 20 Q: Yes. And you wouldn't make a request 21 for some time off in these type of circumstances where 22 everybody is pulling very long hours, you wouldn't make a 23 request like that very lightly, would you? 24 A: No. 25 Q: So if you did make a request it would
3491 be -- there would be some kind of serious issue about 2 your stress level and your fatigue, right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And when you're stressed and fatigued 5 you might become concerned that -- that it might affect 6 your performance, right? 7 A: I suppose, yes. 8 Q: Yes. And your performance included 9 receiving and passing on information accurately, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: I want to ask you about an entry on - 12 - on September 3rd of your notes. It's at page 22 of 13 your notebook. It's at Tab 4 of your documents. 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And it's the entry right under where 19 it says: 20 "Sunday, 03 September '95." 21 Do you see that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it says: 24 "On duty." 25 And then my copy is -- is obliterated in
3501 terms of -- of the vehicle. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: "Vehicle --" 4 A: That's a: 5 "-- Merc with white wings --" 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: "-- down to beach side in front of 8 CFB." 9 Q: Okay. And the next line says? 10 A: "Dudley pissed again". 11 Q: Okay. Let me stop you there, because 12 I take it, as an OPP officer, you would have occasion to 13 investigate impaired driving offences? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And in the matter of -- in the case 16 where you're investigating an impaired driving offence, 17 you might may entries in your notebook, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And one of the things that you would 20 do is you would record your observations concerning the 21 condition of the driver, correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that driver might be intoxicated 24 by alcohol, right? 25 A: Right.
3511 Q: And you might make physical 2 descriptions of how that person's intoxication was 3 manifest, correct? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: You wouldn't say, driver pissed, 6 would you? 7 A: Probably not, but -- 8 Q: No. 9 A: -- these notes were not made in the 10 same sort of context. 11 Q: Okay. They were made in the context 12 of describing your observations concerning a First 13 Nations person, right? 14 A: They were made in my observations of 15 a person, yes. 16 Q: A First Nations person, right? 17 A: Well, he was a First Nations person, 18 yes. 19 Q: And you didn't have a lot of 20 experience in terms of dealing with First Nations persons 21 before this, you've already testified, right? 22 A: No, that's right. 23 Q: Do you have any concern having looked 24 at your notebook entry on how you described Mr. George's 25 condition that you --
3521 A: On this -- on this day, you mean? 2 Q: Yeah. On reflection, do you have any 3 concerns about how you chose to describe Mr. George? 4 A: I suppose, you know, on reflection, I 5 could have worded it differently, but that's -- that's 6 what I wrote, so that's -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- what I have. 9 Q: Right, well, thank you for that. I'm 10 not going to pursue it any further. 11 I want to follow-up on, and I'm very close 12 to finishing, Mr. Commissioner. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I want to follow-up on a -- on 17 something that Mr. Rosenthal asked you, because he was -- 18 he elicited some evidence from you concerning your 19 involvement in July and August of 1998, concerning 20 assistance to Constable Deane in his representative in 21 gathering evidence. 22 Do you remember that evidence? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. I take it that your 25 involvement in that, you weren't doing that in secret
3531 were you? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And I take it that you were 4 reporting to your superior about that? 5 A: I was with my boss at the time, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And but -- who was your boss? 7 A: At that time it was Trevor 8 Richardson. 9 Q: Okay. So Trevor Richardson was also 10 involved in this? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Right. And who would Trevor 13 Richardson be reporting to? 14 A: I don't know. I can't recall who -- 15 who it would have been. 16 Q: Okay. And you told us that you 17 stopped becoming involved in that investigation when 18 somebody expressed some concern about the optics, right? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Right. And what was the -- do you 21 recall who it was that expressed that concern? 22 A: It -- you know, it may have even been 23 the Commissioner. I don't recall exactly. 24 Q: Okay. So you had occasion to have 25 discussions with the Commissioner concerning --
3541 A: Oh, no ,no. No, no. No, no. Just 2 it may have come down to me from the Commissioner. 3 Q: All right. So you may have received 4 some direction or -- or guidance from the Commissioner 5 through other individuals, is that -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- right? Do you have a recollection 8 of that happening during the course of your work on this 9 case? 10 A: I recall that there was, as I said 11 before, that there was some kind of an incident that was 12 sort of similar in nature where officers were assisting 13 the defence lawyer of a fellow officer and it was deemed 14 to -- to not look so good, so we were -- we were told to 15 stop. 16 Q: All right. Those are my questions, 17 sir, Thank you very much, Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 19 Mr. Roy. 20 Ms. Jones...? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't 25 asked you, Ms. Jones, how long do you think you might be?
3551 MS. KAREN JONES: I think I might be 2 about twenty (20) to thirty (30) minutes at most. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 4 can finish with this Witness today. I mean, you'd like 5 to finish today rather than go over? 6 THE WITNESS: That'd be fine, sir, yes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's late, 8 but if we keep going, we finish -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: This is just going to 11 take me a minute, Mr. Commissioner, to set up. We have 12 paper galore. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 17 Q: Officer Dew, there's just a few 18 things that I would like to clarify, of things that have 19 arisen out of your examination-in-chief and cross- 20 examination. When Mr. Millar took you through your 21 police notes there is some mention from time to time in 22 your police notes about a blue Trans Am. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I note that on at least one (1) 25 occasion, if it helps to assist you I believe it's on
3561 page 24 of your notes, you have the license plate of 2 that -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- vehicle written down. And can you 5 tell us what the license plate number is? 6 A: 062 XCS. 7 Q: And, Officer, we have heard some 8 evidence from Mark Wright and we have looked at an entry 9 in the scribe notes about a black Trans Am that has the 10 license plate of 062 XCS? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I wanted to -- I'm sorry, it's 13 recorded in the scribe notes as a Black Camaro but we had 14 a picture of the car which we showed to Mark Wright and 15 he agreed that that was the same thing; he said the 16 Camaro looks very much like a Trans Am -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- and he was satisfied with that. 19 But the specific thing I wanted to ask you about is your 20 reference to colour. 21 A: Right. 22 Q: I note in your notes from time to 23 time the Trans Am is described as blue -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- on another occasion perhaps grey
3571 and once brown? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And can you tell us whether or not in 4 your notes you were refer -- you were referring to a 5 number of different vehicles or the same vehicle? 6 A: I would like to say that perhaps the 7 brown and the grey car are different cars, but I do have 8 a little bit of colour-blindness. I have trouble making 9 a separation between say, blues to the -- to the darker 10 end into black and I have trouble with some greens and 11 into greys. Yes. 12 Q: So, if we have evidence that the 13 vehicle with the license plate 062 XCS is a black Trans 14 Am you don't disagree with that? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: And we can take your eyesight 17 situation into account? 18 A: Thank you. 19 Q: Thank you. You had been taken to 20 some entries in your notes where you had talked about 21 noting an increase in license plates from Michigan -- 22 A: Right. 23 Q: -- and, sort of, places outside of 24 Ontario and you had been asked about the significance of 25 that too at the time and you said that that in your view
3581 at that time it wasn't significant? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Later on, and you'll see at page 21 4 of your notes if you want to have a look at your notes, 5 there's a reference in your notes to Dudley George 6 telling your partner at the time that there were people 7 coming from another -- a number of places outside 8 including Michigan -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- to support the takeover of the 11 Park? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Once you got that information, did 14 the -- did the fact that you had been seeing an in -- an 15 increased number of vehicles with out -- outsider plates 16 have any particular significance to you then? 17 A: Well, it seemed to lend some 18 credibility to -- to what we were told by the -- those 19 folks way back on July 29th and certainly added some more 20 meat to the information that we'd been given by Dudley 21 himself who had -- who had told us he was going to take 22 the Park -- or they were going to take the Park. 23 Q: You were taken by Mr. Miller to 24 September the 4th and your notes, if I can assist you 25 perhaps, that's at page 24?
3591 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there are a couple of things that 3 you talked about in relation to September the 4th; one 4 was reference to cars doing donuts around the couple? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And you had told us that you had some 7 concerns about that so you had called up to Grand Bend? 8 A: Well, I called the Comm Centre and 9 they had called Grand Bend, yes. 10 Q: I'm sorry. And they called -- and 11 what were your concerns in particular? 12 A: I was worried they were going to be 13 hit by one of the cars. 14 Q: Was this the first occasion or that 15 you had seen driving that you considered to be 16 potentially dangerous or unsafe driving either on the 17 beach at the Army Base on Matheson Drive or in the area 18 around the Army Base? 19 A: No, I -- I would say that fairly 20 routinely some of the driving on -- on Matheson Drive in 21 particular as they turned from what is Matheson Drive on 22 the beach and then to turn east on the -- the beach in 23 front of the Army Camp, they -- they would often 24 fishtail, be at high rates of speed. 25 And they would routinely come down and
3601 make the first corner on -- on Matheson at the -- it 2 would be the southeast corner of the Provincial Park I 3 guess, and come around that corner with such great speed 4 they would leave the hard, packed sand and end up stuck 5 in the sand up onto the -- the east side of the roadway 6 and so on. 7 So, no that erratic driving, I guess, it 8 would be a good word for it, had been seen from seen from 9 time to time. 10 Q: Okay. And I take it from the 11 evidence you've given that your understanding was that 12 Matheson Drive was a municipal road? 13 A: That was my understanding, yes. 14 Q: And that was an area that you and the 15 other officers -- where you and the other officers could 16 enforce the law? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I take it if you had seen driving 19 like that in other situations that may well be situations 20 where you would intervene? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us why you at least 23 didn't choose to do that when you were at the Park in the 24 summer of 1995? 25 A: Well, my primary function as it was
3611 explained to me when I first got to the Park by Inspector 2 Carson was to gather information and not to blow our 3 cover unless someone's personal safety was an issue. 4 And although you could say that this 5 driving was offensive or could be charged for I didn't 6 think that it was -- it was worth blowing our cover, 7 whatever cover we had, at any particular time for. 8 It was -- and it was routine and we noted 9 it. It was -- it became less and less shocking as the 10 camping experience went on and on and it just -- it just 11 didn't seem worthwhile to pursue. 12 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 13 about, on the morning of September the 6th you go out in 14 the -- up in the MNR helicopter -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- for a period of time. And can you 17 tell us if you recall how high the helicopter was flying 18 when you were in it? And it's hard to gauge this -- 19 A: Well, it's -- 20 Q: -- but sometimes were you above the 21 trees, below the trees, at least as a starting point? 22 A: We were -- we were well above the 23 trees. I would say, as difficult as it is to guess, I -- 24 I would guess that we were two hundred (200) feet. 25 Q: Okay. I then want to ask you just a
3621 couple of questions about the incident involving Gerald 2 George on the night of September the 6th and you may want 3 to turn to page 34 of your notes. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this is just a -- first of all, a 6 quick cleanup question. You were asked whether you had 7 documented anything in your notes about reviewing the 8 Gerald George matter with Inspector Linton. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: Do you want to have a chance to look 11 at your notes and confirm whether you've documented 12 anything or not. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Well, I know that I spoke to him at 17 8:25 when I called the information in to begin with. 18 Q: That's right, but after that. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I -- I don't see a --a reference to 23 it. I -- I mean there was -- there was opportunity. I 24 was back at Forest Detachment. 25 Q: Sure. And -- and what I understood
3631 your evidence to be, Officer, to be fair was that you 2 weren't disputing at all any entry in the scribe notes, 3 it was just something that you didn't recall. And I 4 think your evidence had been that you didn't think you'd 5 made any notes of it. 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: So I'm just providing you an 8 opportunity to look at your notes and confirm what in -- 9 what is there. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: You were asked some questions earlier 12 about whether you knew the names of, or whether you were 13 familiar with the names of the occupiers and you said 14 that there were a few names that you knew? 15 A: Right. 16 Q: You knew Dudley, you knew Worm, and 17 you knew Judas? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Now, one of the things that was put 20 to you in the context of Gerald George's evidence which 21 you've had that read now to you a number of times, one of 22 the things that he gave evidence about, was you 23 specifically asked him about the Isaacs. 24 And I wanted to ask you whether you knew 25 in September of 1995 whether or -- anything about Isaacs
3641 in the area or on the Base? 2 A: Not -- I don't recall hearing the 3 name Isaac until after the fact, like maybe around the 4 8th or the 9th. 5 Q: Right. I then wanted to take you to 6 the hospital on the night of September the 6th and into 7 the morning of the 7th. 8 You've told us in your -- and in -- in 9 your evidence and you also have some documentation in 10 your notes, that one of the first things that you did 11 when you went to the hospital was you spoke to staff 12 there. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: To talk to them about safety. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And can you describe for us, if you 17 recall, what specifically you were talking with them 18 about or asking them to do and what their response was? 19 A: What I wanted them to do was to 20 evacuate non -- all non-essential persons from the 21 Emergency Department and maybe even the floor above the 22 Emergency Department. And -- 23 Q: And -- and why was that? What -- 24 what were -- what were your concerns? 25 A: Well the biggest concern that I had
3651 is that I didn't know who was coming. 2 Q: Right. 3 A: Or how many people were coming. And 4 the nurses that I spoke to seemed to be quite receptive 5 and understood what I was asking and why. 6 And -- but there was a Dr. Marr who was, I 7 would say, a lot less than cooperative. 8 Q: Okay. Why -- why do you say that? 9 What -- what was your encounter, or discussion, or 10 discussions with Dr. Marr? 11 A: She -- she just didn't seem to, at 12 least outwardly understand or appreciate what I was 13 asking for and why. 14 Q: Okay. Did you make clear to her that 15 you had concerns for public safety? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And did you make clear to her that 18 there was, in your view, potential for significant risk 19 for people in the Emergency Department? 20 A: That's why I was asking, yes. 21 Q: Right. And what was her response to 22 you? 23 A: She didn't think that -- that it was 24 necessary and that -- I -- I can't recall her exact 25 words, but the overall impression was that she just was
3661 not receptive to us, being the OPP. 2 Q: Okay. Have you had experience, over 3 the course of your policing career, in working with 4 medical personnel at hospitals in order to address safety 5 concerns -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- in different situations? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Have you ever had a situation before 10 where a doctor was so unreceptive to your concerns? 11 A: No. 12 Q: I then just wanted to take you 13 briefly a little bit to the information that you had at 14 the time you were at the hospital. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And this is in reference to, you were 17 asked some questions about reasonable, probable grounds, 18 and grounds for an arrest, and that kind of thing. 19 And you had mentioned in your evidence, 20 but in a little bit of a fleeting manner, that you had 21 been listening to the transmissions that were coming from 22 East Parkway and sandy lot -- the sandy parking lot 23 through the CMU. 24 And you had that information in your 25 mind --
3671 A: Right. 2 Q: -- when you were considering whether 3 or not there were reasonable and probable grounds. 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And I -- in terms of helping refresh 6 your memory, what I wanted to do, and unfortunately the 7 excerpts from the scribe notes that I want to refer to 8 you are not in your book. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: And in the interest of time, Mr. 11 Commissioner, I just propose to read them to this 12 witness. It's already been made an exhibit. We've 13 already heard evidence about this and it'll just be a 14 little faster. If there's any problem we can deal with 15 that. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long is 17 that piece that you're reading? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: It is -- it is less 19 than two (2) sentences. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Go ahead. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 23 Q: On Exhibit P-426, which are the 24 scribe notes that were taken of this event, there is -- 25 starting from 23:05 hours I'll -- I'll read you two (2)
3681 excerpts from -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What page? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: It's on page 80, I'm 4 sorry. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: For September the 6th. At 23:05 8 hours there's -- there's starting to be entries in the 9 scribe notes that set out what is being heard in the 10 transmissions from the CMU. And it says: 11 "Ambulance requested. Shots overheard 12 being fired on radio transmission." 13 And then at 23:07 hours there is a note 14 saying: 15 "10-52 to behind the prisoner van. 16 Wants account order form up. Sergeant 17 Cousineau arranging for two ambulances. 18 We took gunfire from a car. Bus 19 attempted to run over members. No 20 casualties of ours reported. They 21 returned fire." 22 And does that assist you in terms of 23 refreshing your memory about what you heard when you were 24 listening to the transmissions? 25 A: Yes. Yes.
3691 Q: And does that assist you in terms of 2 your view or your understanding that a car was involved 3 in the incident in the sandy parking lot and that there 4 were shots or there was weapons or fires associated with 5 that vehicle? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And was that in your mind when you 8 were formulating whether or not there were reasonable and 9 probable grounds? 10 A: Yes, that's right. 11 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions 12 about your comments about it being chaotic at the 13 hospital. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you're sort of feeling a little 16 at sea there. And it's been -- you've talked a little 17 bit about some of the factors that made you feel that way 18 and I just wanted to make sure that we understand your 19 evidence about what was the source of that feeling in you 20 of being a little bit at sea and that it was chaotic. 21 I understand from your evidence and in 22 your view that there was potential for significant or 23 great danger at the hospital? 24 A: Yes. I think, in particular, after 25 the -- the phone call that I had received from the Comm
3701 Centre, the fellow there had advised me that they, 2 whoever "they" were, were figuring that there was a good 3 likelihood that there would be guns in that car. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: And it certainly heightened my 6 anxiety. The assistance from the uniform officers, both 7 from Strathroy Detachment and Strathroy PS, certainly was 8 not happening fast enough for my piece of mind. 9 Q: That's right. 10 A: And -- 11 Q: And I take -- I take it, in addition, 12 that there would have been a number of officers there 13 that you didn't know; the officers from Strathroy? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you hadn't worked with before? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And you -- and you weren't familiar 18 with working with them and they weren't familiar with 19 working with you? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And I take it, it gives one some 22 comfort in a situation when you know who you're dealing 23 with and who you're working with and who you can rely on 24 for what? 25 A: That's right. Yes.
3711 Q: And so you didn't have that comfort; 2 is that right? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: In terms of there was also a 5 significant number of unknowns; that is how many people 6 might be coming to the hospital? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: And what would happen when they got 9 there? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: And I take it from your evidence that 12 you were feeling a bit at the time like the weight of the 13 world was on your shoulders? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that you had to protect everyone 16 that was at the hospital and maintain safety and deal 17 with whatever came through the door? 18 A: Yes. And I -- I realize, as I 19 realized then, it was not my sole responsibility. But 20 it -- 21 Q: It felt like it? 22 A: -- it felt like it to me. 23 Q: Okay. And just to -- to be clear 24 about your state at the time, Mr. Roy read you some 25 entries from the scribe notes about you getting some time
3721 off. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And on reflection, on September the 4 6th, do you feel that there was anything about your 5 condition, i.e., that you were too tired or too stressed 6 so that it affected your performance as an officer? 7 A: No, I -- I don't -- I don't recall 8 feeling that stressed or that tired, or I didn't feel 9 that stressed until I got to the hospital. 10 Q: That's right. 11 A: And I didn't feel that tired until 12 after that was over with. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: But in terms of your ability over the 16 course of September 6th to observe things accurately, to 17 report things accurately and to take notes of -- of 18 events accurately? 19 A: I don't think it affected that. 20 Q: Okay. You were asked some questions, 21 and this is doing a little bit of a skipping around, and 22 I'm sorry about that, because I know it makes it 23 difficult; you were asked some questions about whether, 24 during the course of the investigation that followed the 25 events of September 6th, whether you or others found
3731 weapons, as reported by Gerald George in the Park or the 2 Base? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And I just wanted to ask you my -- if 5 you can confirm for us, my understanding, the 6 investigation conducted by the OPP was conducted entirely 7 outside of the Base and Park? 8 A: Yeah. Yes, largely. We went into, 9 when we were doing the search of the scene, we were into 10 the -- the Park to a certain point, just into the Parking 11 lots where we -- the bus and car were examined. 12 Q: Just inside to the entrance but you 13 never had an opportunity to look throughout the Park, 14 look throughout the Base? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: No. 18 Q: And my understanding, and we've heard 19 previous evidence that that investigation, in fact, 20 didn't take place until twelve (12) days after September 21 the 6th? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And at no time was the scene 24 contained? 25 A: No.
3741 Q: And there were many people who were 2 in and around that area during the period of time between 3 September the 6th and September the 18th? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I wanted to go back just briefly, 6 Officer, about information that you had during September 7 the 6th and the early morning of September the 7th. 8 And the reason I wanted to do that is 9 because Mr. Millar had played you a recording of a 10 telephone conversation that took place on September 7th, 11 1995 at 04:31 hours and that was between Superintendent 12 Anthony Parkin and Mark Wright. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And he'd played that for you because 15 there was a portion of that recording where you could 16 hear your own voice in the background. 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And I just wanted to -- and, Mr. 19 Millar, I'm sorry, but I -- I don't have the exhibit 20 number of that with me, and if it helps for the record, I 21 would be happy to deal with that, but I just don't have 22 it at my fingertips. I'm sorry. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's okay. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
3751 Q: While Mr. Millar looks for that, I 2 just wanted to take you through a section of that. 3 Do you have a copy of that document 4 before you? 5 A: I think I do. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: There's two (2) of them here. 8 Q: It'll say at the top, "Region 14". 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. If you turn -- 11 MS. DEBRA NEWELL: 1063. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: 1063. 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: Now, mine is not paginated. Oh -- 17 but if you -- I -- pardon me? Oh, I'm sorry, on page 5 18 of 8. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Just a -- just to move a little bit, 21 give you some context here. There is some discussion 22 about Nick -- Nicholas Cottrelle? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You'll see part way down the page. 25 And there's some discussion here about who Nicholas
3761 Cottrelle was, what his involvement is and where he is. 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And you'll see that there's a 4 reference near the bottom to Mark Wright: 5 "Well, we don't know. Well -- well -- 6 one (1) Cottrelle could have been on 7 the bus, too, 'cause he was shot. But 8 he could have been in the bus, too. 9 Like, I don't know what they're 10 trying." 11 And then in the background you can hear 12 someone say: 13 "He must have been in the bus." 14 Or, sorry: 15 "He may have been in the bus, yeah" 16 And then there's more attributed to: 17 "The story I overheard." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then Mark Wright says: 20 "Hang on a sec." 21 And then you say: 22 "The story I overheard was he was 23 standing beside the car when he was 24 shot and then he sat down on the 25 passenger side of the car but you know
3771 that's..." 2 And then there's some going on. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: We have heard some evidence from Dr. 5 Marr who was the physician at the Strathroy Hospital who 6 initially assessed Nicholas Cottrelle, that when she 7 obtained information from Mr. Cottrelle in the emergency 8 department about what happened with him, he had given her 9 a story that had included the following elements. 10 And she refers to her original history, 11 just to be clear, and that is found on -- at Exhibit 356 12 on page 2. And the history says: 13 "This is a sixteen (16) year old boy 14 who was at Ipperwash during a 15 confrontation with the police. He was 16 apparently standing by or sitting in a 17 car when he felt something strike him 18 on his side, just after hearing a 19 gunshot, and then he's brought to 20 hospital." 21 And when Dr. Marr was asked about that, 22 she said that in the original history he gave her, he had 23 said he was apparently standing by or sitting in the car. 24 He had a couple of different versions of events and he 25 seemed a little unclear about that.
3781 A: Right. 2 Q: And I'm wondering if we go back to 3 the conversation that's going on between Superintendent 4 Parkin and Mark Wright and particularly on page 6 of 8 at 5 the top, when you're talking about the story you 6 overheard -- 7 A: Right. 8 Q: -- whether or not that would be 9 consistent with what you might have heard at the hospital 10 either from Dr. Marr or other medical personnel or 11 hearing that conversation? 12 A: Sure. 13 Q: And is it fair to say that as of the 14 night of September the 6th and at this time, by 4 o'clock 15 on the morning of September 7th, the only information 16 that you would have had about what happened at the sandy 17 parking lot would have been what you heard over the 18 radio, the -- I'm sorry, the transmissions that you heard 19 at the Forest Detachment? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Any information that officers would 22 have given to you by telephone or by radio communication? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Or by what you heard or overheard at 25 the hospital, either from the people who had brought in
3791 or from medical personnel? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You didn't have any other source of 4 information? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. I then just wanted to ask you 7 a few more questions. I'm almost done, Officer. 8 Mr. Millar had played you a tape of a call 9 where you were calling the Comm Centre in order to try 10 and make arrangements for Mr. Sam George -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- to get into the jail and to see 13 family members there. And I just had a couple questions 14 to ask you about that. 15 I take it in your experience it would be 16 very unusual for someone out of the blue to attend at a 17 jail at night and have an opportunity to visit someone in 18 the jail? 19 A: Other than a lawyer, yeah. 20 Q: In fact it would be impossible? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so do I take it then that the 23 reason that you make that call is so that you can assist 24 Mr. George in seeing his family members? 25 A: Yes.
3801 Q: Yeah. And is that something that 2 would be usual or unusual to do? 3 A: I would say it would be unusual. It 4 was certainly the first time I'd ever done it. 5 Q: Okay. You were asked a number of 6 questions about the investigation and other activities 7 that followed the incidents on September the 6th, 1995. 8 And is it fair to say that as an 9 investigator, that you have a duty to be thorough? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And a duty to be fair? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And a duty to be honest in your 14 investigation? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you treat the investigation 17 into the attempted murder of the OPP officers any 18 differently than -- than any other investigation you've 19 conducted? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And did you treat your assignment 22 that Mr. Rosenthal took you to in terms of working with 23 the Defence lawyer -- 24 A: Right. 25 Q: -- in the Deane matter any
3811 differently than you took your job in general? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. And I take it from what you're 4 saying that any of your actions or activities in related 5 to Ipperwash you have tried to be fair? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And honest? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And accurate? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I take it that that's the case? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Finally you were asked about whether 14 you were -- you were asked some questions about Cecil 15 Bernard George investigation. 16 A: Right. 17 Q: And I take from I think what you said 18 that you were never tasked with investigating anything in 19 relation to Cecil Bernard George? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you talked about there being an 22 SIU investigation -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- because of circumstances around 25 his arrest?
3821 A: Yes. 2 Q: And are you aware of the results of 3 that investigation? 4 A: I think that their investigation 5 turned up inconclusive. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: I think it was inconclusive. 8 Q: Okay. We have some -- we have a copy 9 of the SIU report as an exhibit here and the conclusion 10 there is that no excessive force was used in Cecil 11 Bernard George's arrest, are you aware of that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Those are my questions. 14 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 Mr. Millar, do you have any re- 18 examination? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. I just have, 23 Commissioner, two (2) questions, basically two (2) or 24 three (3) questions. 25
3831 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: The first was, could I take you to 3 Tab 4 Exhibit P-1272 page 22, Sunday, September 3, 1995? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And there's an entry at 08:00 that My 6 Friend Mr. Roy took you to. It says: 7 "On duty. Dudley's vehicle Merc with 8 white --" 9 A: Wings. 10 Q: "-- wings down to beach site in 11 front of --" 12 A: CFB. 13 Q: "-- CFB?" 14 A: Right. 15 Q: And then it goes on. Could you read 16 the next two (2) lines please? 17 A: "Dudley pissed again. Kicks kids off 18 the beach." 19 Q: And can you tell us what behaviour 20 did you intend to convey by that description? 21 A: Just that he was -- that he'd been 22 drinking and was -- was drunk and that he was having 23 problems with kids on the beach. 24 Q: And have you ever used that term to 25 describe the behaviour of non -- non First Nations
3841 persons? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And My Friend, Mr. Scullion took you 4 to some notes, the notes of Mr. Richardson? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: The -- there's -- I think there -- 7 you may still have them there? 8 A: Somewhere, yes. 9 Q: Yes. And the -- there's a reference 10 at 20:10: 11 "Constable Martin advises a lone male. 12 And enters building, obviously hiding, 13 and keeps peeking out window." 14 Do you recall Mr. -- Trevor Richardson 15 telling you that on the evening of September the 6th? 16 A: Not -- not particularly, no. 17 Q: But -- and I'd asked you about this, 18 in your conversation with Mr. Graham at Tab 18 Exhibit P- 19 1137 on the third page of the -- where you refer to: 20 "DEW: That's what they're going to do. 21 Apparently if anyone -- anymore of the 22 Kettle Point Band Council shows up 23 there they're going to start build -- 24 burning buildings. I don't know if 25 that's -- if that's a ruse to draw your
3851 attention away from the back corner 2 down there. Mumbly says there's still 3 a guy inside the kiosk with the door 4 shut and the windows -- the curtains 5 drawn." 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And I'd asked you before if you knew 8 the source of that information and I hadn't drawn your 9 attention to this. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And -- 12 A: It seems likely I got it from Trevor 13 Richardson. 14 Q: But you can't recall? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions 17 and I wish to thank you very much, Constable Dew, 18 Detective Constable Dew, for attending and giving your 19 evidence. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much for coming and giving us your evidence and 22 you're finished now; that's it. 23 24 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 25
3861 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 Anything else for today, Mr. Millar? 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I suggest that 4 given the lateness of the day that we adjourn until 5 tomorrow morning. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You mean you 7 were thinking of calling another witness? We'll adjourn 8 now until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 11 adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, April the 5th at 12 9:00 a.m. 13 14 --- Upon adjourning at 5:22 p.m. 15 16 Certified Correct, 17 18 19 20 _________________ 21 Carol Geehan, Ms. 22 23 24 25