11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 4th, 2005 25
21 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) (np) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) (np) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Colleen Johnson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) (np) 23 Sue Freeborn ) 24 Maureen Smith ) (np) 25 Lynette D'Souza ) (np)
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian Smith ) (Np) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 Erin Tully ) (np) 20 21 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 22 Anna Perschy ) (np) 23 Melissa Panjer ) 24 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np) 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 BENJAMIN WAYNE POUGET, Resumed: 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 8 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 118 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 132 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 152 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 197 11 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 201 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 205 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-313 "Stan Thompson" Drawing, September 20/'95 4 marked by witness Mr. Ben Pouget 11 5 P-314 Three pages of Mr. Ben Pouget's DayTimer 6 September 04/'95-October 15/'95 15 7 P-315 DVD September '95 First Nations 8 Investigation Team Video Footage 2 of 2 9 Ipperwash Inquiry 25 10 P-316 Two original videotapes First Nation 11 Investigation Team Video Footage 12 (September '95) 1 of 2, Ipperwash Inquiry 13 V2 for SIU (Beach House) St. John 14 Ambulance, OPP Van; First Nation 15 Investigation Team Video Footage (September 16 '95) 2 of 2, Ipperwash Inquiry, V1, OPP 17 van fuelled at 15:42 on September 04/'95 18 We shot this scene at or about 07:42 p.m. 19 Sat. September 09/'95; houses scene shot 20 (afternoon) Sat. September 09/'95, 21 ambulance scene shot afternoon Sat. 22 September 09/'95; out in the bush September 23 13/'95 41 24 P-317 Document 3000380 - 019/042 to 042/042 Mr. 25 Ben Pouget's notes and maps. 60
71 EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-318 Five drawings made by Mr. Ben 4 Pouget 65 5 P-319 Notes of Mr. Ben Pouget September 6 04-October 27/'95, 55 pages 194 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
81 --- Upon commencing at 10:36 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Justice Linden presiding. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning, everyone. 9 10 BENJAMIN WAYNE POUGET, Resumed: 11 12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Sorry that we started a few minutes 14 late, but we needed to make some copies of some documents 15 and, for the benefit of My Friends, we've handed out this 16 morning a fifty-five (55) page -- actually it's fifty-six 17 (56) pages with the cover page, set of documents that 18 were notes made by Mr. Pouget that we'll talk about in a 19 few minutes, but were made some time in 1995. 20 Now, Mr. Pouget on Friday when we stopped, 21 we had reached September 8th, and your return to the Army 22 Camp on September 8th. And can you just tell us, 23 generally, what you did on September 8th, after you 24 returned to the Army Camp from Toronto and Sarnia? 25 A: I would have arrived at the Army camp
91 around -- probably around noon, 12:30, one o'clock. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: In the afternoon on the 8th. 4 Q: And what did you do on the 8th? 5 A: I first, then, would have talked to 6 Mike Cloud and then I would have went down to the 7 encampment inside the Park. 8 Q: Now, do you remember going down to 9 the encampment inside the Park? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And when you went down on September 12 8th, was there a -- did you go outside of the Park onto 13 the sandy parking lot to the west of the -- 14 A: Yes, there was a barricade on the 15 road. 16 Q: And, there was a barricade on East 17 Parkway Drive? 18 A: Yes, on both sides. 19 Q: When you -- 20 A: Blocking -- blocking the road. 21 Q: And when you say, "on both sides," 22 was there a barricade on East Parkway Drive and on Army 23 Camp Road? 24 A: Yes, there was. 25 Q: And behind you is a copy of
101 Exhibit 23, the Stan Thompson drawing, and can you just 2 point out, if you can -- 3 A: Do you want me to mark it or just 4 show -- 5 Q: Sure. where -- if -- if -- if the 6 location is on this exhibit, where the barricades were on 7 September 8th when you arrived? 8 A: It would have been about -- right 9 about here and here. 10 Q: And could you mark beside the first 11 one a number "1" and on the second one a number "2"? And 12 number 1 is a line drawn across East Parkway Drive to the 13 west of the sandy parking lot and number 2 is across Army 14 Camp Road to the south, approximately, of the sandy 15 parking lot. 16 And was -- were those -- do you recall 17 when those barricades were removed from East Parkway 18 Drive and Army Camp Road? 19 A: I believe they might have been even 20 moved that night or on September 9th. 21 Q: And on September 9th, was there a 22 barricade erected on the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And could you draw a line on Exhibit 25 23 and could you put the number "3" beside that, Mr.
111 Pouget? 2 And perhaps, Commissioner, we could mark 3 this drawing as the next exhibit? 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-313, Your Honour. P- 5 313. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-313: "Stan Thompson" Drawing, 8 September 20/95 marked by 9 witness Mr. Ben Pouget 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And did you participate in moving the 13 barricades back off East Parkway Drive and Army Camp 14 Road? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: And did you observe the -- the 17 removal of the barricades and -- from East Parkway Drive 18 and Army Camp Road? 19 A: Yes, I was present. 20 Q: And do you know who moved the -- the 21 barricades off East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road? 22 A: It would have been the guys from 23 Oneida and maybe Muncey. 24 Q: There was a group of people who had 25 come from Oneida and Muncey to assist; is that correct?
121 A: Yes. 2 Q: And they were the ones who removed 3 the barricades? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And do you know who -- were you 6 present when the barricade marked, "number 3" was built? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And who built that barricade? 9 A: That would have been the guys from 10 Oneida and the guys from Muncey. 11 Q: And do you recall any of the names of 12 the people from Oneida or Muncey? 13 A: I know Buck Doxtator was there -- or 14 Isaac Doxtator -- Layton Elijah, Layton's boy -- I can't 15 remember his boy, but I know Stefan Ireland, Darryl 16 Ireland, I don't know his name, but his name's 105 -- 17 another guy named, Slave. There was maybe thirty (30) or 18 forty (40) back there. 19 Q: Okay. And at some point the 20 barricade that's marked on -- as number 3 on Exhibit 313, 21 was moved. 22 Do you recall when that barricade was 23 moved out of the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: And --
131 A: That -- that was moved on -- on 2 September 13th, I believe. 3 Q: And your -- referring to your notes 4 and these are the notes from your DayTimer? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And is there a reference on September 7 13th that you're referring to? 8 A: Yes, it says: 9 "Major move -- major move Camp back to 10 -- to see what the media would do." 11 So, we moved it back to the bridge that 12 day. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: I don't know who ordered it, it just 15 -- they ordered it back to the bridge. So everybody did. 16 Q: We were working at 10:30. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I was going to throw up a -- a map of 21 the Park on the screen but the gremlin -- the gremlins 22 have got the machine. It was working at 10:30, 23 Commissioner, but... 24 Can you tell us when the barricade was 25 moved, where was the barricade moved to?
141 A: It was moved on September 13th, 2 reading in one (1) of my other books, but not the book 3 that I made these notes from, it said still September 4 13th we'd have moved the barricade at 07:30 hours in the 5 morning on September 13th, back to the bridge. 6 Q: And the bridge is the bridge that 7 runs across the creek inside the Park? 8 A: Yes, right by the water treatment 9 plant. 10 Q: And was it on the east or the west 11 side of the bridge? 12 A: It would have been on the water 13 treatment side which probably would have been -- 14 Q: It's the east side, the water 15 treatment side? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And when -- do you recall this 18 happening or do you have to -- are you relying on your 19 notes? 20 A: Well, actually I do recall it 21 happening. I'm just relying on my notes to see what time 22 it was. 23 Q: Because what I would like you to do 24 is if you can -- if you need -- if you remember, I would 25 like you to just tell us what you remember and if you
151 need to refer to your notes to refresh your memory, then 2 make sure you let us know that you're doing that. 3 A: Actually I haven't seen these in nine 4 (9) years. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Now, perhaps what 6 we'll do is mark as the next exhibit, the three (3) pages 7 of notes, Commissioner, from Mr. Pouget's DayTimer, and 8 you'll find that on the inside of your binder. 9 And it start's on September 4th and runs 10 through to October 15th this extract in 1995. And 11 perhaps we could mark that P-314. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-314, Your honour. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-314: Three pages of Mr. Ben 15 Pouget's DayTimer September 16 04/'95-October 15/'95 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And the notes that -- the second set 20 of notes that you're referring to that we handed out this 21 morning, Mr. Pouget, the top page is a copy of the first 22 page of Exhibit 314 from your daytime. 23 And then the next fifty-five (55) pages 24 are handwritten notes that appear to have come from a 25 three (3) ring -- or a binder that had rings at the top.
161 And can you tell me when you made these 2 notes if you can remember? And what -- and how they were 3 made? 4 A: These notes were made from another 5 notebook that I have no idea where it -- where it is. 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And I have a lot of stuff in these 8 notes but it's not the notebook that I was hoping it was 9 to be. 10 Q: And the -- this notebook -- the pages 11 are numbered from 1 to 55. I understand that you put 12 those numbers on after -- some time after the actual 13 notes were made? 14 A: Yes. When I handed it over to Geoff 15 House (phonetic) and Colin Brown wanted me to -- to 16 number them, so then he made these notes. 17 Q: And this was -- the notebook that 18 these fifty-five (55) pages came from, is a notebook that 19 would flip over, you could flip to any page? Because -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Is that correct? And I note that the 22 -- the pages are not in any particular order; they'll go 23 from -- they -- the first note is October 11th and then 24 at page 7 is September 4th and then at page 12, for 25 example, September 13th.
171 And were the notes made or dated on any 2 particular order, or you simply opened the book and -- 3 A: Well, I would have just opened it up 4 and started writing. But I know that I had another 5 notebook where I would have made these notes from. 6 Q: So, the book -- the pages that are in 7 front of you, were made from another notebook -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- after you had made the original 10 notes in the -- the first notebook? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And that notebook, you don't have? 13 A: I don't know where it's at. 14 Q: And the -- after September 8th, can 15 you tell us generally what you did, Mr. Pouget? 16 A: After September 8th, I would have 17 talked to Buck and -- or Isaac Doxtator and Layton 18 Elijah. Layton Elijah was head of security, and -- 19 Q: And what did you understand Layton 20 Elijah's duties to be? 21 A: He was to -- there was a lot of us, 22 so he was in charge of all of us. 23 Q: And -- but when you say he was "in 24 charge of all of us", Mr. Pouget, why was -- what was he 25 -- what was the task you were all supposed to be doing
181 that he was in charge of? 2 A: Well, I know there was no drinking, 3 no drugs, no weapons of any kind. 4 Q: And was he to make sure and the group 5 that you were with, to make sure that that was observed? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when did Mr. Layton Elijah arrive 8 at the Army Camp and the Provincial Park, do you know? 9 A: He must have arrived on the 8th 10 sometime also. I'm not 100 percent sure. I don't know 11 if we arrived at the same time or right around the same 12 time. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But he was down in the Park before I 15 was. 16 Q: He was -- so, he was -- he was in -- 17 at the Park when you arrived? 18 A: Yes, when I arrived he was -- we were 19 at 1 and 2 and they were -- they were standing right on 20 the road when -- 21 Q: When you arrived, so he was outside 22 the Park at the -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- barricades on the high -- 25 A: They were being put up right then.
191 Q: They were being put up when you 2 arrived? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then they were moved back the 5 next day? 6 A: The next day or that night some time. 7 Q: Yeah. And -- so the barricade on the 8 road -- East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road was there, 9 from your understanding, for no more than a day? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, what did you do on September 12 9th, 10th? Can you generally tell us what you did in 13 this period from September 8th to September 13th? 14 A: I was talking to a lot of my friends 15 and some people I just met and what happened down in the 16 Park -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- and we were -- some spent shells 19 were already picked up, some were being picked up. I was 20 present at a few of them that were picked up. We were 21 just gathering -- just gathering evidence. 22 Q: And did you, at some point, attend 23 with someone who was taking -- using a video camera? 24 A: Yes, Ted Harper. 25 Q: And Ted Harper was a -- the friend
201 who is a relative of your brother's wife? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And he came down from Toronto with 4 you to Sarnia and then to the Army Camp and the Park on 5 September 8th? 6 A: Yes, my brother, Ted Harper, myself 7 and another guy. I don't know who he is. 8 Q: And when did Mr. Harper start making 9 -- taking -- making a video? 10 A: We would have started as soon as we 11 got there. 12 Q: And do you know how many videos he 13 took? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And do you know where all the videos 16 are? 17 A: About 95, 98 percent of them, anyway. 18 Q: And we've got two (2) videos that are 19 in front of you, copies of videos, and we have two (2) 20 other videos that we received yesterday. The videos that 21 are in front of you, if you could take a look at those 22 for a moment, and there's one (1) that has a tag on it, 23 "number 2." 24 Do you see that on -- just on the cover, 25 Mr. Pouget?
211 A: Yes, V-2? 2 Q: It's -- the typed -- actually, the 3 typed -- on the back you'll see. Turn it over. Wait a 4 second. We've got to make sure they're in the right -- 5 that one came out -- 6 A: This one -- this -- this one's over 7 here. 8 Q: Okay. And if you could take the one 9 on your left and you'll see on the outside there's a 10 typed label. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what does that label say? 13 A: It says: 14 "OPP van fuelled at... [It looks like} 15 15:42 on September 4th, 1995." 16 Q: Okay. Turn it over for a minute; 17 there's another label. What's that one say? 18 A: "First Nations Investigation Team 19 Video Footage September 1995, 2 of 2, 20 Ipperwash Inquiry." 21 Q: And on the -- the box, there's a 22 handwritten note that says, "V something." 23 A: V-1. 24 Q: That's V-1? Okay. 25 A: Yes.
221 Q: So, that's -- number 2 is V-1 and 2 then if you -- could take you back to the other video for 3 a second and it's got a label on and the label that 4 you're looking at was a label put on by our office and 5 that one says, "1 of 2?" 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that's also got on it in 8 handwriting, "V-2?" 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And Exhibit -- the one that Mr. 11 Pouget has now, Commissioner, was marked Exhibit 277. 12 Now, the handwriting, Mr. Pouget on the 13 label for -- 14 A: It's not my handwriting. 15 Q: -- on the -- not on that label, but 16 on the actual videotape -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- the handwriting on that label is 19 your handwriting? 20 A: Yes, it's all my handwriting. 21 Q: And the -- the -- the label at the 22 end, as well? 23 A: Yes, that's my handwriting, also. 24 Q: And the handwriting on the large 25 label on the black videotape says:
231 "OPP Van (Gassed up September 4/95, St. 2 John Ambulance (both) houses (police 3 say we broke into) [quote] 'not true' 4 [close quote] September 9th/95." 5 Have I read that correctly? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do I take it that this particular 8 video was taken on September 9th, 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the -- do you want to slip it 11 back in, it's out and then on the outside it says: 12 "For SIU (Beach houses) St. John's 13 Ambulance OPP Van." 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And is that your handwriting? 16 A: Yes, it is. 17 Q: Then, the second video, the label 18 says -- the large label is -- I read it says: 19 "Time 06:50 a.m. September 13/95. This 20 is where we found the hard computer 21 disk out in the bush plus booze plus 22 inside St. John's ambulance and this is 23 where we saw unopened bottle of booze." 24 Now, is that label on -- that's the label 25 on the inside?
241 A: Yes. 2 Q: Let me just... Then there's a label 3 on that one on the outside as well. And is the label on 4 the outside your handwriting, Mr. Pouget? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And it says: 7 "OPP Van fuelled at 5:42 on September 8 11/95." 9 Is that what that says? 10 A: It might be 5:42 or 15:42. 11 Q: Okay. 12 "We shot the scene September 11 --" 13 Is that what the September 11th refers to? 14 "We shot the scene September 11th/95 at 15 or about 7:42 p.m." 16 And then there's a reference: 17 "Saturday, September 9/95, Houses 18 scene shot afternoon Saturday, 19 September 9, '95, ambulance scene shot 20 Saturday, September 9, '95 afternoon." 21 A: Yes. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we've 23 seen the Exhibit 277 but perhaps what we'll do is we'll 24 run the second video and perhaps we could just assign it 25 a number, it'll be 315.
251 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, P-315. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-315: DVD September '95 First 4 Nations Investigation Team 5 Video Footage 2 of 2 6 Ipperwash Inquiry 7 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It needed a rest, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Approximately 14 how long is this video? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's -- this video is 16 approximately forty (40) minutes. 17 THE WITNESS: Damn, forty (40) minutes. 18 19 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 22 Q: Now this is -- shows September 13th, 23 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what were you doing on September
261 13th, 1995? 2 A: I think we would have been going out 3 in the bush at 06:50. 4 Q: And what were you -- when you say you 5 were going out in the bush, Mr. Pouget, where were you 6 going in the bush? 7 A: We were going directly across the 8 A-frame, which is here. 9 Q: You're pointing at Exhibit 314 and on 10 the west side of Army Camp Road on the south -- south of 11 East Parkway Drive. There is an Exhibit 313, two (2) 12 buildings shown on -- in that lot. 13 Those two (2) buildings are now gone? 14 A: Yes. They're gone. We'd be going 15 somewhere around over here somewhere. 16 Q: So that on that -- that particular 17 lot, there were bushes to the west and trees to the west 18 and to the south of those -- the buildings that we see in 19 Exhibit 313? 20 A: Yes. It would be approximately two 21 hundred (200) metres from here to about here. 22 Q: Two hundred (200) metres to -- 23 A: From -- from the Park -- or the road 24 here. 25 Q: Yes.
271 A: To where we were going in the bush. 2 But we didn't come straight through here. We came -- 3 there's a little fence we came -- 4 Q: Okay. Mr. Pouget, I need you to pick 5 up this other microphone if you're going to turn away 6 from the microphone. 7 A: Sorry. 8 Q: So that what you did is you -- can 9 you just point out on this particular map Exhibit 313, 10 where you went when you took this photograph -- this 11 video? 12 A: We would have came down -- there's a 13 -- there's a fence, I guess a pathway that goes down into 14 here, then there's a fence -- 15 Q: Move the mike a little closer, Mr. 16 Pouget. 17 A: -- drove over the fence and then over 18 another fence then up the hill and you end up back in 19 here somewhere. 20 Q: And that's in the bush to the south 21 and west of those buildings? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And -- 24 25 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED)
281 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And, who was with you on that 3 morning? 4 A: Ted Harper. 5 Q: Yes? Anyone else? 6 A: Layton Elijah's son, Dwayne Elijah. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Or it was -- he might have a 9 different last name -- Dwayne -- 10 Q: Anyway, Layton Elijah's son? 11 A: Layton Elijah's son, Dwayne, a guy 12 named Chris John and I think Charles Doxtator or Chucky 13 Cheese. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Or Charles George. 16 Q: And you were following a path back in 17 the bush, is that what you were doing? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 Q: And I take it you observed liquor 23 bottles along this path? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And this is a shot of one (1) of
291 those bottles? 2 A: Yes. Right where we're going right 3 now there's a little hill that goes -- that's just 4 starting to go up. 5 Q: And this area has anyone -- this area 6 is accessible by anyone? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you don't know how long those 9 bottles were there? 10 A: Well, I could smell them; I could 11 smell the alcohol, so they weren't there that long. 12 Q: But you -- that's -- you observed 13 that, but that's all you know about how long they were 14 there? 15 A: When I got to this point, I could 16 smell alcohol. 17 18 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 19 20 Q: That was your supposition; that's not 21 something you knew took place on the night of -- on that 22 -- that night you're referring to, September the 6th? 23 A: Well, the reason why we went back 24 there is... 25 Q: We'll get back -- we'll get to that
301 for a moment. 2 A: All right. 3 Q: But the statement that you made, Mr. 4 Pouget, that the police were working on that -- drinking 5 on that night, was simply a supposition that you made? 6 A: We used their map to go back there. 7 Q: I appreciate that and we'll come -- 8 we'll come back to that -- 9 A: All right. 10 Q: -- but that's simply a supposition 11 you made when you made this statement on September 13th; 12 is that correct? 13 A: Yeah. Yes, I guess. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: Do you know what happened to that 19 particular disk -- the floppy disk ? 20 A: I hope we gave it to the SIU. 21 Q: Do you know if you gave it? 22 A: I don't know. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I don't know. 25 Q: Fine.
311 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: Now, Mr. Pouget, when you're -- when 4 this video is being taken, are -- can you tell us which 5 direction you were going? Are you going from west to 6 east or east to west back in the bush? 7 A: There's -- we went one (1) way and it 8 was going back towards -- towards these buildings here 9 and then there was another way. There was -- because 10 there was another little encampment over here and that 11 was just like blue tarps and -- 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: -- orange tarps. There was blue 14 tarps and orange tarps over here. It looked like there 15 was, like, a canopy during the day, because it was hot. 16 Q: So that -- and we'll get to this in a 17 moment, but do you -- the three (3) areas -- the -- the 18 video was taken walking west from Army Camp Road as well 19 as walking east towards Army Camp Road? 20 A: Yes, there's -- the terrain back 21 there, it's up and down and there's not really too many 22 flat areas, except for that area we were up there was a 23 elevated area. 24 Q: And does this path -- where does the 25 path lead to on the west side?
321 A: On the west side it leads to a house, 2 6767, and it's back aways. 3 Q: So that it runs along the back of the 4 lot that we've seen at the intersection of East Parkway 5 Drive and Army Camp Road -- 6 A: Yes, we'd -- 7 Q: -- west -- if you -- once you're back 8 in the bush, the path runs west towards the cottage -- to 9 the house located at 6767 East Parkway Drive? 10 A: Yes, it runs along East Parkway 11 Drive, like, almost parallel. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: So it would run almost in a straight 14 line. 15 Q: And -- and does it end at the house 16 at 6767? 17 A: That part of it does, and then it 18 continues back behind 6767. 19 Q: And when it continues back behind 20 6767, where does it lead to? 21 A: It would have came out at the back of 22 -- there's a parking lot back there, and the St. John 23 Ambulance was parked back there. 24 Q: And is that the Ministry of Natural 25 Resources parking lot?
331 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And does the path, then, continue 3 west of the parking lot? 4 A: Yes, it goes all the way to Kettle 5 Point. 6 Q: The path goes all the way to Kettle 7 Point? 8 A: Well, when you go back in there, 9 there's about four (4) or five (5) paths back there. 10 They're big -- big paths. 11 Q: And the paths -- some of the paths 12 lead past the MNR parking lot all the way to Kettle 13 Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: And then some of the frames that you 19 see of a fence, and is that fence along the paths on 20 either side? 21 A: Well, there's a -- there's a fence. 22 I think this area here is right behind -- right behind 23 these buildings right here. There's a fence that runs 24 right along back in here, kind of like a squared off 25 area.
341 The fence runs like this. There's 2 actually a couple of difference fences back there. 3 Q: Pardon me? 4 A: There's a couple of different fences 5 back there. 6 Q: So that there's a fence that runs 7 along the south side of the lot that's at the 8 intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road and 9 there's a fence that runs north and south on the west 10 side of that particular lot? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there are other fences as well 13 back there? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: And the spot that you're at there, on 19 -- this particular were the -- one (1) of your -- do you 20 know who's speaking at that point? 21 A: That might have been Dwayne Chris 22 John (phonetic) and -- or Dwayne Nicholas (phonetic). 23 Q: And is he pointing towards the lot, 24 the open lot, that's at East Parkway -- at the 25 intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp Road?
351 A: No, he's not, I think he's pointing 2 right here at -- right in there. 3 Q: Was he pointing towards the 4 buildings? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And for the record, it is -- 7 on Exhibit 313 it's -- Mr. Pouget was pointing from the 8 location off the left-hand bottom side of Exhibit 313 9 towards the square -- towards the buildings that are 10 shown in Exhibit 313 in the lower left-hand side. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 Q: Now, we see in this particular frame, 15 some -- what appear to be blue and yellow objects and 16 what are those? 17 A: Those are the blue and yellow tarps 18 that look like they were a canopy for the sun, to block 19 off the sun during the day. 20 Q: Well, when you were there -- when you 21 located these tarpaulins, the blue tarpaulin and the 22 yellow tarpaulin, they were on the ground like that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And were they made of canvas or 25 plastic, do you recall?
361 A: Plastic. 2 Q: Thanks. 3 4 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 5 6 Q: And the buildings at the -- you can 7 see in the background of this particular shot are the 8 buildings that are located on Exhibit 313? 9 A: Yes, they are. 10 Q: That were there back in September 11 1995 that are no longer there? 12 A: Yes. 13 14 (VIDEO PLAYING) 15 16 Q: What we see now is the west side of 17 the buildings that are located on -- were located on the 18 lot at the intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp 19 Road? 20 A: Yes, we're right behind them. 21 22 (VIDEO PLAYING) 23 24 Q: And in the shot that we see now, I 25 take it, you can see East Parkway on the right hand -- or
371 the upper part of the frame leading towards the sandy 2 parking lot? 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 6 7 Q: And in that frame there as of 8 September 13th, the barricade was still at the sandy 9 parking lot? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And it was on that day it was moved 12 back? 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 16 17 Q: And that's a shot of the A-frame that 18 we've seen in other photographs that used to be on the 19 20 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 21 22 Q: And that's a shot of the A-frame that 23 we've seen in other photographs, that used to be on the - 24 - on the lot? 25 A: Yes, it is.
381 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: Mr. Pouget, these buildings appear to 4 be abandoned. Do you know whether they were in use back 5 in September of 1995? 6 A: No, they weren't. 7 8 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 Q: The battery was going out on the 11 video, is that why -- 12 A: Yeah, just enough to think -- 13 Q: It changes colour here? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: We had a problem with that. 17 Q: And now you're walking directly 18 towards the intersection of East Parkway and Army Camp 19 Road towards the sandy parking lot; is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 Q: Is that the house at 6767? 25 A: Yes, it is.
391 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: The path leads east of that house 4 towards Army Camp Road though when you locate it? 5 A: Yes. 6 7 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 8 9 Q: And that shows the scene we've seen 10 before on the video on -- taken on September 13th, 11 leading towards the lot at the intersection of East 12 Parkway and Army Camp Road? 13 A: That's still -- that's still quite a 14 ways away. 15 Q: It's still -- 16 A: Yeah, because they got up to the 17 first fence, there's two (2) fences right in a row -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- and then you still have this -- 20 about -- almost 1,500 metres -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- from the St. John Ambulance to the 23 spot behind the building. 24 Q: Behind the -- 25 A: Yes.
401 Q: -- the buildings and the lot at East 2 Parkway and Army Camp Road? 3 A: Yes. 4 5 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 6 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: That's the end of that 8 particular tape, Commissioner. We -- for the benefit of 9 My Friends, we obtained over the weekend, two (2) more 10 videotapes from Mr. -- Mr. Ross, our -- and his office, 11 that were from Mr. Brown. 12 And as best as we can determine, the two 13 (2) videotapes which we will make available to anyone who 14 would like to see them, has some of the material that's 15 on the two (2) videotapes that have been marked -- the 16 DVDs that have been marked as Exhibits 277 and 315. But 17 there's also some other material, for example, a 18 discussion between Mr. Brown, Mr. Pouget, Mr. Layton 19 Elijah and some members of the SIU. 20 And -- but a good deal of it has the same 21 shots of going through the -- going through the bush. 22 Perhaps what we should do, Commissioner, 23 is mark these two (2) original videotapes that are in 24 front of Mr. -- Mr. Pouget, from which we made Exhibits 25 277 and 315, as the next exhibit. It would be Exhibit --
411 THE REGISTRAR: 316. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 316. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-316: Two original videotapes First 5 Nation Investigation Team 6 Video Footage (September '95) 7 1 of 2, Ipperwash Inquiry V2 8 for SIU (Beach House) St. 9 John Ambulance, OPP Van; 10 First Nation Investigation 11 Team Video Footage (September 12 '95) 2 of 2, Ipperwash 13 Inquiry, V1, OPP van fuelled 14 at 15:42 on September 04/'95 15 We shot this scene at or 16 about 07:42 p.m. 17 Sat. September 09/'95; houses 18 scene shot (afternoon) Sat. 19 September 09/'95, ambulance 20 scene shot afternoon Sat. 21 September 09/'95; out in the 22 bush September 23 13/'95 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
421 Q: Now, Mr. Pouget, your handwriting's 2 on the labels. Do you know who spliced these -- these 3 videotapes together, who put them together? 4 A: Yes, I do, Ted Harper. 5 Q: Ted Harper did? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he took the video that was -- the 8 video that you took as well as the video someone else 9 took inside the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 10 A: Yes, the second video is the one -- 11 the original tape, that's the one I gave to the Goldi's, 12 John and Joan Goldi, to make a copy for us and it went 13 missing. 14 Q: So you gave the original tape, an 15 original tape of a video to Mr. and Mrs. Goldie? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And when you asked for it back, you 18 didn't get it back? 19 A: It was about two (2) years later. 20 Q: And what did they tell you about it? 21 They said it's gone missing? 22 A: They couldn't find it. 23 Q: We've heard that before, Mr. Pouget. 24 A: I know. 25 Q: But in any event, you never received
431 the videotape back from Mr. and Mrs. Goldi? 2 A: No, I did not. 3 Q: Now the -- perhaps we could take a 4 short break? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 6 short break now, thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 8 for fifteen (15) minutes. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 11:58 a.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 12:16 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed, please be seated. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 17 Q: Mr. Pouget, could you on, Exhibit 315 18 that we just saw, that was taken on September 13, were 19 you present when a video was also taken that showed an 20 OPP van, as well as the houses? 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: And the -- when was -- do you recall 23 when the video with the OPP van was shot? 24 A: Can I look at my notes? 25 Q: Sure. If you'll look, it's September
441 9th? 2 A: Yes. September 9th. 3 Q: And was that the same day the video 4 was taken of the houses? 5 A: I believe it was. 6 Q: And perhaps if we could just take a 7 moment, the video that -- I'm going to just play a short 8 bit of Exhibit 277 which is the video of -- that we saw 9 before. 10 11 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 Q: Can you tell us where this is -- this 14 particular OPP van was found? 15 A: The only place -- it's kind of hard 16 to explain what we would call it. It's right by the 17 Flint Reef (phonetic) in between the two (2) big dunes. 18 Q: Okay. I'm going to put up on -- a 19 copy of Exhibit P-40. This is a copy of Exhibit P-40 20 which shows on the north, the Army Camp -- I mean, Lake 21 Huron, on the west the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 22 And it's the balance of it shows the Army 23 Camp and can you -- there should be a laser on -- can you 24 just point out where that -- where it was found? 25 A: This is the Flint Reef here --
451 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- and there's -- we call a pass 3 right in here -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- and then there's some dunes that 6 run right in here and I'd have to say he was right down 7 in here somewhere. 8 Q: So you're pointing to Exhibit P-40 9 and we see the -- there's a part that leads -- a little 10 arc that leads out into the lake below the number, I 11 think it's 80 and immediately to the east of that was the 12 area where the -- the van was found in the dunes? 13 A: I'm still trying to think back, 14 because there's two (2) areas that look like -- but I'm 15 pretty sure that this is the area here. There's also -- 16 it's called, "the marriage patch" in here. 17 Q: Yes, now, you're pointing -- 18 A: But -- but you can drive through 19 there, that was in a spot where you can't drive a -- you 20 need a four (4) wheel drive where that van was to drive. 21 Q: And the -- do you know when that van 22 was put onto the -- in -- in any event, the location it 23 was found in was on the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And do you know -- do you know when
461 that van was driven onto the Army Camp? 2 A: No, I don't, but I know who put it 3 there, or who says they put it there. 4 Q: We'll come back to that, but -- 5 A: All right. 6 Q: -- but the person who told you they 7 put it there, put it there after the events of September 8 6th? 9 A: Yes. 10 11 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 Q: Is that Mr. Harper? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And you're there with Mr. Harper? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And who else was there? That's okay, 18 but you're there and Mr. Harper? 19 A: Okay. I'm just trying to remember 20 who was driving the ATV's. 21 22 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 Q: That was you? 25 A: That's me; that's what time that is.
471 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 Q: And what's being held up there is a 4 gas bill? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And it was a gas bill from August the 7 10th, 1995? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I think the time -- you read out 10 the time, 7:43? 11 A: I believe I did. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 Q: Do you recognize who's in the shot 17 that's with the bill? 18 A: It could be Gabe. 19 Q: Gabe? 20 A: Gabriel Doxtator. 21 Q: Gabriel Doxtator. 22 23 (VIDEOTAPE PLAYED) 24 25 Q: Now, the video of the van, the
481 Exhibit 277, was taken on September 9th. At some point 2 after September 9th, I understand that you, personally, 3 went into the St. John's Ambulance van trailer? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And can tell us what day you went 6 into the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 7 A: Can I look at my notes again? 8 Q: Certainly. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I believe we were there on both days, 13 on the 9th and the 10th. Saturday, September 9th and the 14 10th. 15 Q: And -- 16 A: September 10th, was the Sunday. 17 Q: -- can you -- pardon me? 18 A: September 10th was the Sunday. 19 Q: And can you tell us what you saw when 20 you went into the St. John's Ambulance trailer, and by 21 the "trailer", I'm referring to the trailer with the 22 fifth wheel. 23 A: In the fifth wheel, it was pretty 24 messy because the guys were there before us. And we were 25 -- Ted and I and few other guys, we went back and we were
491 going through the garbage. And in the garbage, in the 2 bottom of the garbage, where there was one (1) full 3 bottle of vodka, Smirnoff, and an empty bottle of 4 Smirnoff, because we just poured the garbage out onto the 5 -- we put out some garbage bags and we poured it all out, 6 right outside the fifth wheel. 7 In the video, the second video, the guys 8 picked up a foolscap and they riffled through it, like, 9 two (2) or three (3) times but they just -- just did 10 this. 11 And on the bottom of those riffles, I 12 picked it up, and I looked at it and that's where these 13 notes came from, because they were on the bottom. 14 Q: Okay, we'll -- 15 A: Reverse side. 16 Q: Okay, we'll just stop for a moment. 17 When you went into the St. John's Ambulance trailer on 18 September 9th or 10th -- 19 A: Both days I was there. 20 Q: Both days? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: The first time you went in, had you 23 seen the video that was -- we watched a few minutes ago, 24 marked Exhibit 315? 25 A: Yes, I seen the video first --
501 Q: Before you went in? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: And when you arrived at the St. 4 John's Ambulance trailer, the doors were open? 5 A: Yes, the doors were open. 6 Q: And you don't know how many people 7 had been in and out of the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: And you located some notes that are 10 Inquiry Document 3000380 which appear at Tab 13 of the 11 book in front of you. 12 Now, perhaps, Mr. Pouget, just for -- to 13 help for our assistance, if one looks at Inquiry Document 14 3000380, in that notebook that -- at Tab 13 of the book 15 in front of you -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- the first page is -- right after 18 the tab number is a copy of your notes. Do you want to 19 just go back right to the beginning? 20 A: It says: 21 "St. John's a hundred and twenty-eight 22 (128) minutes -- 23 Q: "St. John's Ambulance command post. 24 We have a hundred and twenty-eight 25 (128) minutes of videotape September
511 7th to September 19, 1995." 2 Those are your notes? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you made these notes some time on 5 or after September 19th, 1995? 6 A: Actually, I would have made them 7 after because I see my phone number at the bottom here. 8 Q: Yes, that's what I mean. It was -- 9 A: Yeah, it was after, yes. 10 Q: It was after -- probably after 11 September 19th? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, there's a number of pieces of 14 paper attached and they actually have a fax number, it 15 starts at page 2. You'll see on the right-hand side, 16 page 2, page 3 -- page 2 is a document entitled, 17 "Official CB Ten (10) Code" and on the upper left-hand 18 side there's a number "984." 19 Where did you obtain this piece of paper? 20 A: I don't -- I don't recall obtaining 21 this piece of paper. 22 Q: Okay. What pieces of paper did you 23 find in the command post? Can you identify -- what about 24 the page that's identified on the upper left-hand corner 25 as "985"?
521 A: 985? 2 Q: You'll -- it's the next page. 3 A: Second page? 4 Q: It's the -- 5 A: Yes, this one -- this page? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And all of the pages after it. 8 There's one (1) page missing. There's one (1) page 9 missing. 10 Q: But there are -- starting with the 11 page that has, 12 "OPP-St. John's Ambulance command post 13 left their notes behind morning of 14 September 7/95 at or about 8:15," 15 The -- following that page, which is the 16 third page in this set of documents, the third, the 17 fourth, the fifth, the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, 18 tenth pages were pages you found in the command post? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then the eleventh page looks like 21 a drawing made by you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then there -- the twelfth and 24 thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth pages, again, are these 25 notes that you found in the St. John's Ambulance trailer?
531 A: Yes. 2 Q: And then the balance of -- 3 A: Those are all my notes. 4 Q: -- the document is your notes? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And at the last part of this, the 7 last two (2) pages of this particular document, or last 8 three (3) pages, there's one (1) that says, "Chronology 9 of Events, Incident at Ipperwash Provincial Park." Was 10 that a document that had? 11 Do you recognize that document? 12 A: I remember seeing this; I don't know 13 where it came from. 14 Q: Okay. And that's a two (2) page 15 document and then the third -- the last page -- is a 16 document that has the date on the bottom, September/96 17 and it has an OPP insignia with an arrow, do you know 18 where that page came from? Did you have that page? 19 A: Actually, I seen a coffee cup with 20 this emblem on it. 21 Q: But -- fair enough, I'll -- and I'll 22 ask you about that, but this particular page that's in 23 this document was not provided by you? 24 A: No, it was not. 25 Q: And the other -- the last -- the
541 third last and the second last page was not provided by 2 you as well? 3 A: No, it was not. 4 Q: Although -- 5 A: That's my handwriting on there, 6 though. 7 Q: That's your handwriting, "September 8 6th or early September 7th"? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when we go back to starting at 11 the third page, Mr. Pouget, the handwriting "OPP St. 12 John's Ambulance" in the right hand side, that's your 13 handwriting? 14 A: Yes, it is. 15 Q: And the handwriting that's on -- 16 immediately below it on the bottom right-hand side, is -- 17 that says: "Monday, March 18/96, Queen's Park crowd 18 management control", that's your handwriting? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: And is the circle with the insignia 21 immediately to the left of the "Monday, March 18th, '96", 22 is that your handwriting? 23 A: No, I believe that's Colin Brown's. 24 Q: Colin Brown's? 25 A: Yes.
551 Q: And on the left-hand side, there's 2 some handwriting about 11:10 p.m. then "Wednesday, 3 September 6th, '95, ERT, TRU, CMC, crowd management 4 control, Ipperwash", is that your handwriting? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: It should have been CMU. 8 Q: Yes. And the handwriting in the 9 middle, where there's a list of names, is that your 10 handwriting? 11 A: No, it's not, that's part of the -- 12 the stuff that I found. 13 Q: And the original of these notes, do 14 you know where the original of the notes that you 15 obtained from the St. John's Ambulance trailer are? 16 A: They would have been handed into the 17 SIU. 18 Q: Okay. And you kept a copy? 19 A: I must have, because I mailed out 20 seven (7) packages. 21 Q: You -- you created seven (7) packages 22 of the notes that you found? 23 A: Notes and all kinds of other stuff. 24 Q: And one (1) of the packages you gave 25 to the SIU?
561 A: I don't know, but they ended up with 2 it. 3 Q: The next -- at the fourth page, is 4 this a drawing drawn by you or was this located in the -- 5 it's a drawing that has East Parkway Drive on the top? 6 A: Yes, this is not mine, this is the 7 police, or whoever made these documents. 8 Q: Okay. These were -- this drawing was 9 with the notes that you found in the -- 10 A: In the fifth -- 11 Q: -- St. John's Ambulance -- 12 A: -- wheel. 13 Q: -- trailer? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: On the next page which would be the 16 fifth page, there's -- in the centre of the page, under 17 "C", there's some handwriting, "September 6/95": that's 18 your handwriting? 19 A: I don't see it. 20 Q: Right -- it's the -- after the map 21 it's a -- you'll see it says: "several vehicles, lighting 22 them up"; do you see that? 23 A: I'm on the wrong page. Oh, yeah. I 24 see it now, at the top? 25 Q: Yes.
571 A: In the centre? Yes, that's my 2 handwriting. 3 Q: And in -- and the balance of these 4 pages, there's a -- September 6/95 in the upper right- 5 hand corner, and that's your handwriting as well? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: And then on the ninth page in, it -- 8 at the top of the page you'll see the fax cover sheet 9 says -- the fax notation says: "27 of 42." Do you have 10 that page? 11 A: Yes, I have it. 12 Q: And you'll see the date September 13 6/95 and then there's printed beside it, "which is really 14 September 7/95" and those words "which is really 15 September 7/95", that's your handwriting? 16 A: Yes, it is. 17 Q: And again, on the page that has 18 "Number 30 of 42"... 19 A: 30 of 42. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: The twelfth page in, in the upper 24 right hand corner, there's "September 6/95", that's your 25 handwriting?
581 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And on the next page, "31 of 42, 3 September 6th, '95"? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then at the bottom of the page 6 that says, at 30 of 42, there's a number that says "5" 7 and a circle; do you know who's handwriting that is? 8 A: It looks like a 7 and a circle. 9 Q: Well, a 7 and a circle on 32 of 42, 10 yes; that appears on a number of -- there's a -- 11 A: Yeah, I -- I believe those are all 12 Colin Brown's. 13 Q: Colin Brown? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Collin Brown is a lawyer? 16 A: Yes, he is. 17 Q: And he was the lawyer acting on the 18 group's behalf back in '95? 19 A: Yes, Tony Ross and Colin Brown. 20 Q: And... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And out of this copy, if Mr. Brown 25 numbered the pages, were you present when the pages were
591 numbered? 2 A: Yes, I was. 3 Q: And did he number the pages from 1 4 through to 9; do you recall? 5 A: I believe he did. 6 Q: Because there appears to be some 7 pages missing; it goes from 1 to 3, to 9, to 4, to 5, 8 to 6, to 7, to 8, but we appear to be missing at least 9 page 1 and -- or perhaps page 1 and 2. Do you know where 10 they might have been? Might have -- 11 A: I don't know. I know there's one (1) 12 missing for sure. 13 Q: And when you say you know there's one 14 (1) missing for sure, Mr. Pouget, can you tell us -- why 15 do you say that? 16 A: Because it was -- it was a, like a -- 17 like a half moon with three X's on it. 18 Q: And it was a drawing, a piece of 19 paper with a half moon drawn it with three (3) X's? 20 A: Yes. What it looked like to us, we 21 were standing right -- right here along the edge of the 22 tarmac, and we put the paper down, we put it down, and it 23 looked like there was three X's, but in different spots, 24 and it looked like they were back behind these areas 25 here. And we went -- that's the only reason we went back
601 there, because we -- we just said, Do you think they 2 could have been back there? So we went over there. 3 Q: So you found a -- you found a piece 4 of foolscap in the St. John's Ambulance trailer; was that 5 piece of foolscap with these other notes that are part of 6 3000380, Inquiry Document Number? 7 A: Yes, it was. 8 Q: And perhaps we should mark this whole 9 group of Inquiry Document Number 3000380 at Tab 13, as 10 the next Exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-317, Your Honour. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-317: Document 3000380 - 019/042 to 14 042/042 Mr. Ben Pouget's 15 notes and maps. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: And, that prompted you to go back 19 into the bush, the area that we saw in the video? 20 A: Yes. Layton and I were standing at 21 the edge of the tarmac and we're -- we were looking at it 22 and then we were putting it down, looking at it, putting 23 it down, and we both said it at -- almost at the same 24 time, "You think they were back there?" 25 Q: And --
611 A: And it looked like a map. So he sent 2 the fellows back there. 3 Q: And then you went back with the 4 video? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you say that you were 7 standing with -- I take it you were standing with a 8 woman, you said -- 9 A: No, it was Layton Elijah I was 10 standing with, -- 11 Q: Oh, Layton. 12 A: -- yes. 13 Q: Now, if I could take you for a 14 moment, there's a bundle of drawings that you made, some 15 of which appear in Exhibit 317, but different -- for 16 example, in Exhibit 317, Mr. Pouget, there's a drawing 20 17 at the page that has on the upper right-hand corner, 18 "29 of 42," -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Do you recall when you made that 21 drawing? 22 A: This would have been about -- I -- I 23 was writing stuff down in my other notebook, which I 24 thought was this one but it's not. The guys were telling 25 me where they picked up the spent casings, .223's, 9mm's,
621 9mm's, five (5) 9mm's in one (1) spot, .38, two (2) 9's 2 on the driveway, .223 -- actually this would have been -- 3 because I got the .240's marked and the OPP search team 4 were the ones that picked those up. 5 So it would have been some time right 6 around the 18th of September. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: They have it marked wrong in -- in 9 the book where they picked it up. 10 Because they found a .223 on the grassy 11 knoll and the 40 cal was on a fence post and which they 12 got marked as a .223 and there was another on the fence 13 post. There's a little ditch there and there was a 40 14 cal found there that was the search team picked it up. I 15 was standing there when they did it. 16 Q: If you would just bear with me for a 17 minute, Mr. Pouget. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now you also have in front of you, a 22 group of pages -- five (5) pages that came out of your 23 blue -- 24 A: Yes. And -- and that book -- 25 Q: -- notebook --
631 A: -- they are in order but they're not 2 in order in here. 3 Q: -- and the drawings on the -- that 4 come out of your notebook and unfortunately they're not 5 in colour, does not include this particular drawing? 6 A: Like I said, this could have been in 7 one (1) of my other books and that's one (1) of the books 8 that are missing. 9 Q: And what you're trying to illustrate 10 with this drawing is where things are located and where 11 things were found? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And there is a -- on the drawing 14 that's on the screen from P-317, page 29 of 42, you will 15 see that there is drawn -- you'll see there's what 16 appears to be a black item marked "Nick", I take it 17 that's supposed to be the bus? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then there's a -- an item that's 20 marked "Waldo" -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- and I take it that's -- is -- be 23 the car driven by -- 24 A: Waldo -- or Warren George. 25 Q: -- Warren George? And then there's
641 an item "OPP van" and that represents an OPP van? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you weren't there on the evening 4 of September 6th. Someone told you that these vehicles 5 were located at the points you've marked them down on 6 this drawing? 7 A: Yes, they did. 8 Q: And do you recall who? 9 A: Waldo, Nick, Leland, Worm. Everybody 10 that was down there told me what they did and where they 11 picked stuff up and what they remember. 12 Q: And you were trying to record it on 13 this particular drawing and the other drawings that we'll 14 see? 15 A: Actually I was just trying to put it 16 in a circle to see where all the rounds were coming from 17 and see if they were -- just to see where these guys were 18 standing. 19 Q: But the information that you obtained 20 from others, you've put into these particular maps? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And the same map appears at page 34 23 of 42, it appears to be the same map in Exhibit 317 as 24 the one we just looked at; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
651 Q: Then, the next drawing at page 35 of 2 42 is again, a drawing based on what others told you? 3 A: Except for the lead fragments in the 4 .240 cals, because I was present when -- when those -- 5 when I saw those with the SIU and the OPP. 6 Q: Oh, you saw those when you were 7 there, that frag -- 8 A: Yes, yes, because on the day of the 9 investigation the lead and copper fragments were still on 10 the ground and the .240 cals were picked up by the search 11 team. 12 Q: Now, I note that on the drawings that 13 came out of your notebook, this group of five (5), and 14 perhaps we'll simply mark this group of five (5) 15 drawings, a copy of five (5) drawings, as the next 16 exhibit; it would be 318? 17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, P-318, Your Honour. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-318: Five drawings made by Mr. Ben 20 Pouget 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: That there is an addition to this 24 particular... 25
661 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: This particular drawing, there's 4 handwriting where it shows the car going into the -- 5 towards the side of the road. 6 "Bullet unknown, handed into SIU inside 7 rear driver's side..." 8 A: Oh, the back tire? 9 Q: "...tire shot out." Now is that your 10 handwriting? 11 A: No, that's -- that's not my 12 handwriting. 13 Q: Do you know whose handwriting that 14 is? I can give you the original, Mr. Pouget. 15 A: I don't recognize it. 16 Q: But that is on the -- the -- these -- 17 Exhibit 318 was taken from the copies of the drawings in 18 your notebook that you gave me the other day. 19 A: Oh, that is my handwriting; that's 20 mine. 21 Q: Pardon? 22 A: That's mine. 23 Q: Okay. Then that's -- this -- this -- 24 on the screen is a photocopy of what was taken from your 25 -- from that notebook and that's your handwriting?
671 A: Yes, it is. 2 Q: And that note, as well as the note, 3 "40 cal full metal jacket found," also that note is in 4 your handwriting? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And those two (2) notes that don't 7 appear in the Exhibit 317, the equivalent map at page 35 8 of 42; it's map number 4? 9 A: Yes, this was probably one (1) of the 10 -- one (1) of the seven (7) packages that I gave out 11 and -- 12 Q: This being Exhibit 317, the -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: Because I know in the first stages, I 16 mailed out just what -- what we had and then this stuff, 17 the tire, came back later on and the full metal jacket 18 was found in March of '96, Roderick George and myself. 19 Q: In March of '96? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what did you do with that than? 22 A: I -- I believe we handed it into 23 Delia Opekokew. 24 Q: Oh, Delia Opekokew? 25 A: Yes.
681 Q: Opekokew. 2 A: How -- how do you say it? 3 Q: Opekokew. 4 A: Opekokew, did I say it right? 5 Q: Opekokew. Delia Opekokew. She was 6 acting for Mr. George at the time. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And in Exhibit 317, the next 9 drawing... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: ...has a number "5" on it and you 14 numbered each of these drawings with the number in the 15 upper right-hand corner, or someone did. You'll see in 16 the original -- on the originals there's a note -- 17 there's a circle with a number in it. 18 Is that yours or somebody else put that 19 on? 20 A: I believe that's my handwriting. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Because it's in red ink and I was 23 using red ink in this. 24 Q: And this is a drawing that, again, 25 you made -- do you recall when you made these drawings;
691 they were sometime after the events? 2 A: Yes, they -- I would have take them 3 from my -- from my notes. It would have been -- have to 4 be after October 18th of '95. 5 Q: After '95? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And the five (5) drawings in Exhibit 8 318, this is number 5, and it is a drawing of the area, 9 the Park entrance, the area to the south of East Parkway 10 Drive, the area where the Ministry of National -- 11 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot area, and you 12 were trying to draw in the path that ran from the -- the 13 pathways that ran from the MNR parking lot east and west, 14 east towards the Park and the Army Camp and west towards 15 Kettle Point? 16 A: Yes, I went down all them paths. 17 Q: And you've -- there are three (3) 18 circles drawn on this map on the left-hand side that are 19 identified as OPP mini command post and bush area. 20 Are these the three (3) areas that you 21 indicate you saw in this piece of paper that's -- that's 22 gone missing, that had the half moon on it? 23 A: With the Xs, yes. 24 Q: And those are the areas that you -- 25 you visited and we saw when we looked at the video which
701 is marked 315, I believe? 2 A: Yes, the first area would have been 3 the St. John's Ambulance hard disk drive found on 4 September 13th, '95 at 06:50; right there. 5 Q: And the -- can you point out which of 6 these three (3) circles was the circle that had the blue 7 and yellow tarpaulin, plastic tarpaulin? 8 A: Actually, I didn't put that on this 9 map, but that is right in here somewhere. 10 Q: Okay. And the comments that you make 11 on these maps as being the mini command and the -- are 12 simply notes that you made based on what you thought, as 13 opposed to what you knew; is that correct? 14 A: I'd have to say that's correct. 15 Q: And on the right hand side of this 16 drawing number 5, there's a -- some -- the Ministry of 17 Natural Resources parking lot where there are a number of 18 drawing -- would appear to be vehicles drawn in on this - 19 - in the parking lot, Mr. Pouget. 20 What was the source of your information 21 for these drawings? 22 A: It was in my other notes, but I did 23 write them down in here, because I was going through 24 them. Can I review them again? 25 Q: Sure, but were those vehicles, for --
711 are these -- do these represent vehicles? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And did you see the vehicles located 4 in the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot like -- 5 as you've drawn them? 6 A: I seen -- I seen these -- the two (2) 7 marked with St. John's Ambulances, I seen both of those 8 and the fifth wheel. 9 Q: Okay, so that -- what you saw was 10 what is known as the -- on the left-hand side, there's 11 St. John's Ambulance that's, I take it, the larger 12 depiction is for the -- to be the fifth wheel -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- the trailer? And then on the 15 right-hand side at the bottom towards East Parkway Drive, 16 there are two (2) squares and they represent two (2) St. 17 John's Ambulance trucks or -- 18 A: Vans. 19 Q: -- vans? 20 A: They were vans. 21 Q: Vans similar to the OPP van we saw in 22 the video? 23 A: Yes, they were full size -- full size 24 vans. 25 Q: And then the OPP and TRU indications
721 that 2 you've got on this map; you did not see vehicles parked 3 there? 4 A: No, I did not. 5 Q: And what was the source of your 6 information? How did you decide to put TRU an OPP, on 7 this map, beside those square boxes? 8 A: This house right here, there was two 9 (2) ladies, one (1) Native, I think -- I'm not sure if 10 they're both Native, one was Sherry (phonetic) Cloud and 11 Barb Cloud. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And they were there watering plants 14 or cutting hair, but they were there on September 4th and 15 on the 5th, and they indicated to me what I -- what I 16 drew up here. 17 Q: So they told you what they saw? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you drew it. Now, when you say 20 the OPP command post, you've got a drawing, an arrow to a 21 square, a rectangular item at the top of the -- what 22 purports to be the Park; and did you see a vehicle in 23 that location? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: And the -- what's that -- who told
731 you there was a vehicle there? 2 A: The ladies also said there was police 3 going in and out of that -- out of that command post that 4 they said, that could have been. 5 Q: Well, you don't know if it was a 6 command post. Can you tell us what they told you the -- 7 the vehicle was? 8 A: They said they seen police going in 9 and out of it. 10 Q: But what kind of vehicle? 11 A: It was like a fifth wheel. 12 Q: It was a -- 13 A: They told me it was -- it looked like 14 the St. John Ambulance fifth fuel -- fifth wheel. 15 Q: So that -- it may have been -- it 16 probably was. Mr. Pouget, we know that -- that there was 17 a St. John's Ambulance trailer there, and that was, I 18 anticipate the evidence will be, that was the only 19 trailer such as that in this parking lot. 20 So you -- you personally don't know -- 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: -- you -- you saw the St. John's 23 Ambulance trailer there, that's the only trailer you saw? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then, if I could take you back to
741 page 1 of Exhibit 318, or page -- the next page of 2 Exhibit 317, which is the same drawing of -- a similar 3 drawing. 4 Now, this is again, a drawing of the same 5 area? 6 A: Yes, it is. 7 Q: And you've marked: 8 " St. John's Ambulance Command Post, all 9 evidence taken from here." 10 And what you're referring to is, among 11 other things, of the notes that form part of Exhibit 317? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And was there anything else taken 14 from there that is being referred to under the rubric, or 15 the word evidence, Mr. Pouget? 16 A: Taken from the fifth wheel? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: There was, I guess it was an ERT 19 computer that I saw. 20 Q: You saw that there was a computer and 21 a hard -- a computer, -- 22 A: The whole computer was taken out of 23 there, -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- and set up in the command centre
751 in, actually it's where Worm lives now, or Stewart 2 George. 3 Q: That was in the maintenance building; 4 no? 5 A: It would have been in the command 6 post, like, I remember seeing the command post in front 7 if it, or a Command, like, for the Army Base. 8 Q: Oh, oh I see, the -- one (1) of the 9 buildings on the, where -- where Stewart George now 10 lives, on the -- on the built-up area of the Army Camp -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- and it had on it -- a sign on that 13 particular building was command post? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: And the computer was set up in there? 16 A: Yes, we set it up. 17 Q: And what did you see on that 18 computer? 19 A: What I saw on that computer, it was 20 at the bottom of the screen was a purple ERT and in one 21 (1) of the, I'm not sure if it was the C drive or the D 22 drive, but there was a globe, it was just -- just looked 23 like a globe, and it had a truck, a white truck, that 24 went all the way around it, anywhere, anytime. 25 Q: Right.
761 A: And that was on there. 2 Q: And that was the computer that was 3 given to the Inquiry? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And, now, did -- there was also -- 6 there was a hard drive, did you -- did that hard drive 7 come from the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 8 A: Yes, it did. 9 Q: And did you see it come out of that 10 trailer? 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: You were told by someone it did come 13 out? 14 A: I believe I was told by the person 15 who took it out. 16 Q: And were you present when the 17 computer was taken out of the command trailer? 18 A: No, but I was present when it was 19 coming out of the vehicle and getting set up. 20 Q: Out of the vehicle somebody was 21 driving that had just come back from the MNR parking lot? 22 A: Well, that's where the computer was. 23 I don't know how long it was sitting in the car but I was 24 -- I was definitely in the building when it got set up. 25 Q: And who brought it from -- whose car
771 was it when it came -- when you saw it? 2 A: I believe it was in the Lois Loboast 3 (phonetic) car which was driven by Dave George. 4 Q: And that's the first time you saw it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you see this computer in the St. 7 John's ambulance trailer? 8 A: No, I did not. 9 Q: And the -- on this particular drawing 10 there's a note: 11 "This scene found September 16, '95, CBC 12 news Ms. Gates (phonetic)". 13 Let me just ask the question, these -- 14 this particular area was not found and is not part of the 15 video that we showed this morning? 16 A: No, it's not. 17 Q: And who is Ms. Gates? 18 A: Jennifer Gates is a reporter from CBC 19 News Windsor. And we wanted to bring the news crew in to 20 show the spot that we filmed on September 13th. 21 But in bringing her back there, I 22 stumbled on this -- this scene here which was not too far 23 from the scene that where we -- that's where I wanted to 24 go but I got lost back there. 25 Q: Where you wanted to go was the scene
781 St. John's ambulance hard disk found? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: In that area? 4 A: Yes, that's where I wanted to go. 5 Q: And the scene that you found on 6 September 16th with Ms. Gates was another area where it - 7 - an open area where people -- 8 A: Well, that was -- that was another 9 elevated area; that was higher than the rest of the area 10 back there. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And you could see from that position, 13 you could see straight on through right to the road. 14 Q: And the road being -- 15 A: Army Camp Road. 16 Q: -- Army Camp. Yes? 17 A: And it was actually a pretty good 18 position. 19 Q: And what did you see at that 20 location? 21 A: About a mound of beer, about maybe a 22 foot and a half high and circumference about 4 feet -- 3 23 1/2 feet around. 24 Q: So you saw some empty beer bottles? 25 A: Cans stacked up.
791 Q: And the scene that you have indicated 2 as this scene found Sunday, October 15, '95 is circled on 3 the immediate left, that was -- you went there on October 4 15th, 1995? 5 A: Yes, every day I was out there. I 6 was looking for -- going down these paths, going 7 everywhere from Kettle Point, walking everywhere back 8 there and we were looking for another high point back in 9 the bush. 10 And this area was right at the end of 11 Matheson Drive where it comes out and there's a little 12 fence that stands about -- about 2 feet high and it goes 13 right underneath the dune and you can actually -- I could 14 right now, go right underneath it. 15 And this elevated area just about maybe -- 16 it's just inside the bush. 17 Q: And what -- when you were there on 18 October 15th, 1995; what could you see from that elevated 19 area? 20 A: That was -- there was more beer cans 21 in that spot about the same as I saw on September 16th. 22 Q: And but what could you see? Could 23 you see -- you said you could see Army Camp Road 24 without -- 25 A: Yes, you could see Army Camp Road and
801 Matheson Drive from that -- from that particular spot. 2 It was also an elevated area. 3 Q: And that is just -- just to the north 4 or south of where you found both of these scenes -- the 5 September 16th and October 15th, there's a campground 6 just to the south of that area; is there not, a fairly 7 large campground? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: With a large number of trailers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And how close is the campground to 12 this area? 13 A: I'd have to say about anywhere's 14 between three hundred (300) and 400 metres. 15 Q: So it's reasonably close? 16 A: Pretty close. 17 Q: And you don't know how the beer 18 bottles that you saw at both these locations got there? 19 A: Well, when -- when I got to the ones 20 on September 16th I could still smell the beer. 21 Q: But you don't know how they got 22 there? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: And the same with respect to the -- 25 the beer cans, I guess there I said, "bottles," I'm
811 dating myself, it should be beer cans that you saw on 2 October 15th; you don't know how they got there? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: Now, on... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: September 9th or 10th, do you recall 9 which day you took the -- the notes that form part of 10 Exhibit P-317, Mr. Pouget? 11 Did you do it the first day or the second 12 day? 13 A: P-317? 14 Q: That's the notes at Tab 13. Do you 15 know which day you took them? 16 A: Tab 13, which page is that on? 17 Q: The notes that -- if you go to the 18 third page, you'll see the notes that came out of the St. 19 John's Ambulance trailer. I'm just trying to identify, 20 did you take them the first day or the second day, the 21 notes -- 22 A: We would have got them on the 9th. 23 Q: On the 9th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Then at Tab 2, there's a document,
821 it's 200 -- Inquiry Document 2003822 and these are again, 2 are some notes made by you? 3 A: What page? 4 Q: At Tab -- Tab 2 of the binder, Mr. -- 5 if you go back... 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: In the black binder that you've got 8 in front of you, Mr. Pouget, if you go back to Tab 2, 9 right at the beginning. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Now, these are some notes made by you 12 as well? 13 A: Yes, that's my handwriting. 14 Q: And these notes were made -- at least 15 some of them were made in March of 1996; is that correct, 16 if you look at page 2? 17 A: Yes, I -- I remember doing this, this 18 was after the OPSEU thing at Queen's Park. 19 Q: So, you made these particular notes 20 after the OPSEU -- there was a -- a rally at Queen's Park 21 by OPSEU which resulted in a confrontation with the OPP? 22 A: The OPP, yes. 23 Q: And you made these notes after that? 24 A: Yes, I would have. 25 Q: And this bundle of notes as well has
831 some of the same drawings that you -- we've looked at 2 just before? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And if you look at this document, the 8 fifth page, that's a -- a copy of the document. 9 That particular drawing came from the 10 notes that you found in the St. John's Ambulance trailer? 11 A: Yes, that's not mine. 12 Q: Then, the sixth page is one (1) of 13 your drawings that we've already looked at? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: The seventh page is, again, one (1) 16 of your drawings that we've already looked at? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: The eighth page is a drawing that is 19 not part of the earlier group of material. 20 Do you know whose drawing that is? 21 A: "Ask SIU for command -- command post 22 reports?" 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Yes, that's my handwriting. 25 Q: That's your drawing?
841 A: Yes. It could be in my other book. 2 Q: Actually, it is, it's in -- it's the 3 third page of the other -- drawing is there as well; 4 that's part of Exhibit 318. 5 And, there's a note on that drawing that 6 says, 7 "Two (2) native women on September 8 4/95, while watering plants, overheard 9 police talk to on-fire (phonetic) 10 people and --" 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And these are the two (2) ladies you 13 told us about earlier? 14 A: Yes, I -- I believe that's them. 15 Q: And what was the source of the 16 information that police were talking to "on fire people"? 17 A: They were just -- they said they 18 could -- there's a little building, a little house, that 19 little house right there, and there's a little -- in the 20 back of it, right back there, there's like -- like a 21 little porch; you could stand outside. 22 And that's where they told me they were 23 standing. 24 Q: The two (2) individuals? 25 A: Yes, it's either -- like I can't
851 remember now. I know there's a porch up there on the 2 second floor somewhere. 3 Q: Now, the -- when they say "On-Fire 4 people" they are people they identified as belonging to 5 the group called "On-Fire"? 6 A: I didn't know who "On-Fire" at that 7 time was, I just wrote it down. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, perhaps, 9 actually, I didn't realize, it's 1:15. Perhaps we could 10 break for lunch? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If this is a 12 good time? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Pouget and I just 18 keep on going if -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we 20 started late this morning, so it's not too bad. If this 21 is a good time, we'll break for lunch now. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, that's fine. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 24 adjourned until 2:30. 25
861 --- Upon recessing at 1:16 p.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 2:32 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed, please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. Pouget, we were talking about 11 September 9th and 10th and one (1) of the things that you 12 indicated was that you saw two (2) St. John's Ambulance 13 vans at the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: And did you look in those vans? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And what did you observe inside the 19 vans? 20 A: One (1) van had one (1) foot by one 21 (1) foot square lights. There was maybe half a dozen of 22 them -- 23 Q: Square lights? 24 A: Square lights, yeah, like they're big 25 lights.
871 Q: Yes. 2 A: And I seen a stretcher, a wooden 3 stretcher. Didn't see any first aid supplies, it was 4 actually kind of hollowed out, that van. There wasn't 5 any -- it looked like it was just like a cargo van, there 6 wasn't anything really -- a lot of the stuff was already 7 taken out of it by the time I got to see it. 8 The second van -- 9 Q: Did you go in the first van, did you 10 go into the van? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: So the door was open or -- 13 A: Everything was open, yeah. 14 Q: Okay. Yes? 15 A: Yes, everything was open -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- I looked in the back and the front 18 and the side. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And the second van, I don't know what 21 I -- I seen -- I don't know if they were body bags but 22 they appeared to be bags and like, there must have been 23 about, maybe twenty-six (26), twenty-seven (27) maybe. 24 There was a stack about -- about that high. 25 And when we went the second day, they
881 weren't there, so I don't know what day it was, but they 2 weren't there. A lot of stuff was already gone missing, 3 everything was taken out. 4 Q: So the first day you saw, in the 5 second van, some bags? 6 A: Well, they looked like -- when I 7 worked at Bob-Lo Island Security, I -- I was in the 8 ambulance and I seen body bags that looked like -- I 9 never seen them opened up, but that's what they looked 10 like. 11 Q: So -- but you saw bags, but you 12 didn't open them up and you assumed they were -- 13 A: Yeah, yeah. 14 Q: You've made an assumption -- 15 A: It was an assumption. 16 Q: What else did you see in that -- that 17 van on the -- on September 9th when you were there? 18 A: It looked like in that particular van 19 there was, I think, a square box in the centre and there 20 was, it looked like it might have been a radio, something 21 to do with radios. I can't remember that van. 22 The other van was -- there was police 23 shields, wooden batons -- 24 Q: In the -- 25 A: In the other --
891 Q: -- first van that -- 2 A: Yeah -- 3 Q: -- you -- 4 A: Yeah, but there was two (2) vans and 5 the second van there was police radios -- not police 6 radios, police shields, batons, didn't look like there 7 was anything -- I didn't see any first aid equipment in 8 that -- in that van. 9 Q: And the van that had the police 10 equipment, was it the van that had the stretcher in it? 11 A: It may have been. 12 Q: And when you went back -- and when 13 you went into these -- both of these vans, they were both 14 open? 15 A: Yes, they were. 16 Q: And when you went back the next day, 17 were they -- did -- you said that in the one van, the 18 bags were gone. Was there other -- 19 A: Yes -- 20 Q: -- things gone? 21 A: The bags were gone, the batons were 22 gone, the shields were gone. The second van, it -- with 23 the shields, they had little slots for the shields to go 24 in so they could stand straight up. There was a bunch of 25 little slots for them to stand in.
901 Q: And that was a -- was there a base 2 there that -- 3 A: It was like a wooden -- a wooden rack 4 for them to stand in. 5 Q: And on the second day you were there, 6 they were gone? 7 A: No, the wooden rack was still there-- 8 Q: But the -- 9 A: -- but everything else was gone. 10 Q: Now, you indicated when we were 11 watching the video or at some point earlier this morning, 12 that you observed a cord running from a cottage? 13 A: Yes, from 6767 -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: Actually it wasn't running from the 16 cottage, it was -- there was a spool of cable that could 17 have been running from the cottage. 18 Q: So you -- so it wasn't running from 19 the cottage. What you observed was a spool -- 20 A: A spool of cable, yes. 21 Q: And where did you observe this, sir? 22 A: That would have been on the video, on 23 the second video, there was a -- it looked like a -- like 24 an aerial that was laying down. And it would have been 25 over to -- it was right around that area, because there
911 was another spot there was -- there was a stand, there 2 was a tripod. And it looked like something fit on top of 3 it with a little lip on the bottom, and it -- it -- it 4 looked like something was -- was maybe some kind of 5 communication there. 6 Q: But -- so the cable that you saw was 7 not running anywhere, it was simply by 6767 and this 8 tripod? 9 A: Actually, that was about -- it would 10 have been about, maybe, forty (40), 50 feet away from the 11 fifth wheel itself. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: The cable, and the tripod and that -- 14 that looked like an antenna that was laying down or 15 something. 16 Q: So, the antenna, tripod and the cable 17 were about 50 feet away from the St. John's Ambulance 18 trailer, but -- and was the cable running anywhere? 19 A: The cable was running right to the 20 St. John -- the fifth wheel itself, the St. John's -- 21 Q: It ran to the -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- St. John's Ambulance trailer? 24 Okay, now, during this period of time the -- what else 25 were you doing? September 9th, 10th?
921 A: September 9th we were running low on 2 batteries, we were running low on film and -- or High 8 3 tape, that's what Ted needed, and I -- I had to make a 4 trip into town. 5 Q: And "into town" is Forest? 6 A: Forest, yes. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: We went to -- I don't know, it's not 9 a Black's, it's right on the main drag, past the bank, 10 the Royal Bank down here, Fuji, green. It was Fuji, and 11 we went in there, bought some High 8 tape -- I went in 12 there and bought some High 8 tape. 13 I got a ride from somebody from the Army 14 Camp and on the way into town, well, there was a large 15 police buildup. We got pulled over and they let us go, 16 but I seen -- in the back here, I seen a APC. 17 Q: And an APC is what? 18 A: An armoured personnel carrier. 19 Q: And whereabouts did you see this? 20 A: It was in the back in -- in the arena 21 somewhere. It was -- I could only see half of it; it was 22 just sticking out. 23 Q: Were you -- now, where were you 24 driving? 25 A: I was coming from Highway 21 and
931 actually, this store wasn't as big as it is now, the IGA 2 right here on the corner. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: And I could see it from over on this 5 side as we were coming in to town. 6 Q: So, you were -- you were travelling 7 on Highway 21, towards Townsend Road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And over on, I guess it would be 10 north of the highway, or at least towards Kimball Hall, 11 you observed what you thought was an APC? 12 A: It was a six (6) wheeled APC. 13 Q: But how -- how much of it could you 14 see? 15 A: I could see -- I could see the two 16 (2) back wheels and I've seen APC's before, so I -- I 17 kind of -- it was an APC. 18 Q: You knew what an APC was? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And that was on September the 9th? 21 A: September the 9th. 22 Q: Now, I note on your notes that on 23 September 14th, 15th and -- you -- you have a note: 24 "Waiting for SIU" 25 And what's that refer to, you were waiting
941 for the SIU to come? 2 A: Yes, we were waiting for somebody to 3 come and do an investigation and the most probable 4 people to do the investigation would be the SIU. 5 Q: And did you know what was going on 6 with the SIU, whether there were negotiations or 7 discussions going on with them? 8 A: I did not. 9 Q: You did not? And you played no part 10 in that? 11 A: No, I didn't. Well actu -- well I 12 went on the 18th, like, just before -- 13 Q: No, but, prior -- prior -- 14 A: No, no. 15 Q: Okay. Then, I note, on Exhibit 314, 16 you have -- on September 16th, talked to Jennifer Gates, 17 CBC reporter, brought her to OPP -- you've got a drinking 18 scene: 19 "It was already cleared -- cleaned up." 20 What's that refer to? 21 A: That was the first site we went to 22 because I ended up finding it after we went to the site 23 that I took her to and then the second site -- well, the 24 first site that was -- that we looked at on the tape, 25 that was already picked up.
951 Q: So that material that had been 2 there -- 3 A: A lot of it was picked up, all the 4 garbage and the cups, the coffee cups. 5 Q: And the -- what about the tarpaulins; 6 was that where the tarpaulins were? 7 A: No, that was -- would have been -- 8 would have been to the -- to the west, southwest, about a 9 hundred (100) yards away. 10 Q: Okay. Then, the SIU came on the -- 11 the 17th or 18th? 12 A: They came on the Monday and the 13 Tuesday. 14 Q: So, that's September 18th and 19th? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I note you have, in Exhibit 314, 17 a note: 18 "SIU and OPP and native investigation 19 team started investigations." 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what role did you play, if any, 22 with respect to that investigation? 23 A: I would have been Ted Harper's 24 assistant. 25 Q: And Ted Harper --
961 A: He was the -- he was the person that 2 was doing all the video. 3 Q: And Mr. Harper videotaped the 4 September 17th and 18th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you know what happened to that 7 videotape; is that the one that went to the Goldi's? 8 A: No. All that tape and all the 9 photos, the still photos, there was a guy named Jim 10 Tobias (phonetic), he was also a photographer. And we 11 left all that property at the gatehouse when we left, Ted 12 and I, and he was the last person we saw with it. 13 Q: At that gatehouse at the Army Camp? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you -- you left that in -- when, 16 in September? 17 A: That would have been right on the -- 18 it would have been on September 19th, that night. 19 Q: And you left -- did you return to 20 Toronto on September -- 21 A: Yes, we went to Toronto. 22 Q: And when did you come back? 23 A: Looks like I came back on the -- 24 maybe the 23rd or the 21st. 25 Q: There's a note:
971 "On the 23rd, went back to Camp 2 Ipperwash, bring van of supplies." 3 A: Yeah, it would have been the 23rd I 4 came back. 5 Q: And then the -- at Tab 12 of the book 6 in front of you, there's Exhibit P-268, copy of the three 7 (3) day joint investigation relating to the death of 8 Anthony Dudley George. 9 And when this investi -- the investigation 10 was going on, for at least two (2) of the days, you and 11 Mr. Harper filmed what -- what was happening? 12 A: Yes. Along with the SIU. 13 Q: Pardon me? 14 A: Along with the SIU. 15 Q: And the -- on page 8 of this document 16 P-268 there's a list of -- it's Inquiry Document 6000335, 17 a list of property returned to the OPP by First Nation's 18 people. 19 And did you participate in the 20 negotiations with respect to the return of this material? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And is this a list of the material 23 that was returned to the OPP? 24 A: Yes, it was. 25 Q: And that included, as noted, two (2)
981 ATV's, some radios, et cetera? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And prior to this September 18th or 4 19th, did you spend time in -- down in the Park? 5 A: Yes. Most of my time was down in the 6 Park. 7 Q: And I've put on the screen, a copy of 8 Exhibit P-63 I think it is -- 61. And you spoke to -- 9 you told us earlier that the barricade was moved back 10 from the sandy parking lot to the bridge over the creek 11 near the water treatment plant? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it was on the east side of the -- 14 east side of the bridge? 15 A: The bus would have been right there. 16 Right here, the sacred fire right about there and we were 17 all sitting right in here. 18 Q: And so that there was the -- what was 19 the barricade made of when it was set up on the bridge? 20 A: We were just -- everybody could pass 21 through. There was no barricade. 22 Q: Oh, there wasn't a barricade itself? 23 A: Yeah. We were -- our -- our camp was 24 right -- right here. 25 Q: Oh, I see. When you say you moved
991 back you meant -- you really mean that the camp moved 2 back to the east side of the bridge? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the bus -- the school bus was 5 parked there -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- by the water treatment plant? 8 A: Yes, it was. 9 Q: And you built a sacred fire near the 10 water treatment plant? 11 A: Yes. It was already there. 12 Q: And there was a group of you who were 13 manning that fire? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how many people manned the fire 16 and for how long? 17 A: Well, it was a twenty-four (24) hour 18 thing and there would have been anywheres from a half a 19 dozen to a couple of dozen. 20 Q: And how long was the sacred fire kept 21 going? 22 A: I guess until everybody left; 23 probably after the 18th some time, 19th. 24 Q: Okay. The 18th or 19th of September? 25 A: It would have been probably the 19th;
1001 everybody was clearing out by then. 2 Q: And by everybody, you mean the -- 3 A: Well, there was still a lot of people 4 there. 5 Q: But by -- but you're referring to the 6 supporters from Oneida and Munsee? 7 A: Oneida -- there was a lot of people 8 from -- from the States, from all over the place. And a 9 lot of people were going back home. 10 Q: And during the period of time in 11 September, when you were back at the bridge, which would 12 be some time, I guess, I think you said, after September 13 13th, when you moved it back? 14 A: Yes. At 7:30 in the morning we moved 15 it back to the bridge. 16 Q: And the -- did you have occasion to 17 speak with a Mr. Potts? Do you -- are you -- do you know 18 a Mr. -- 19 A: Jim Potts? Yes. 20 Q: And is Jim Potts, that you're 21 referring to, an Ontario Provincial Police officer? 22 A: Yeah, that's what he said he was. 23 But we heard he was an RCMP officer. 24 Q: And he was an Aboriginal officer? 25 A: He said he was an Aboriginal Officer.
1011 Q: And had you met Mr. Potts before? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And when you -- can you recall when 4 you met and spoke to Mr. Potts? 5 A: Yes, I do. 6 Q: And when was it, to -- to the best of 7 your recollection? 8 A: I would have seen him a couple of 9 different times. One (1) time with Miles Bressette up at 10 the gatehouse -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- when they were riding around and 13 setting up people to ride with them. Marvin Connor and 14 Jim Tobias were riding along with Miles. Jim Potts was 15 there that day, and also Glen Bannen (phonetic). 16 Q: And who's Glen Bannen? 17 A: Glen Bannen was Anishnaabek police, I 18 guess he might have been the boss. 19 Q: And did you have an occasion to see 20 Mr. Potts in the Provincial Park at some point, in 21 September? 22 A: Yes, Layton and I seen him right 23 there. Glen Bannen's truck, he had a SUV and it was 24 parked right on the bridge. Layton Elijah and myself, 25 Glen Bannen, and Jim Potts were having a little
1021 discussion in front of the vehicle. 2 Q: And when was this? 3 A: This would have been, probably -- it 4 was after the 13th and probably maybe even the 14th or 5 the 13th itself, maybe. All the days, they were all -- 6 Q: Sort of ran together? 7 A: Well, we didn't sleep. 8 Q: And how many days did you go without 9 sleeping? 10 A: Well, every day we slept at least an 11 hour or two (2) but that was every day for -- until the 12 18th. 13 Q: And so over the period you time, you 14 had a lot of days where you had very little sleep other 15 than an hour or two (2)? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what was the discussion that you 18 had with Mr. Potts? 19 A: Well, it started out as, We found a 20 St. John's Ambulance disk across the road and the only 21 ones that had the St. John's Ambulance disk was your 22 guys, the OPP. 23 Q: That's what you told Mr. Potts? 24 A: Yeah, and I said, And your guys were 25 drinking. And he got mad, he went off, If you try to
1031 prove our guys drinking and he then said something that, 2 You'll be lucky if you guys get out of here alive. 3 Q: Now the -- how long did this 4 conversation take place, Mr. -- how long was the 5 conversation, Mr. Pouget? 6 A: They pulled up -- maybe about twenty 7 (20) minutes it was all done. 8 Q: And this was simply a small part of 9 the conversation? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What was the rest of the conversation 12 about? 13 A: Layton and -- well, Layton was -- 14 because they were riding around with Miles and that's 15 what they were -- they were setting up, Jim Potts and 16 Glen Bannen, to make sure that everything was going to be 17 running smoothly on our side and their side. 18 Q: And the Anishnaabek police were going 19 to come in and do some of the security, the perimeter 20 security; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And act as the police -- 23 A: Liaison. 24 Q: -- liaison? 25 A: Yes.
1041 Q: And you were discussing with Mr. 2 Potts and Mr. Bannen the police liaison? 3 A: That's what we were discussing. 4 Q: And the -- 5 A: And waiting for the SIU. 6 Q: The statement that you attribute to 7 Mr. Potts, I note that you didn't make a note of that, 8 Mr. Pouget, in your notebook. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Are you sure that -- you're perhaps - 11 - there's not -- that -- are you sure that you remember 12 the words that were said, or are you just guessing at 13 them. 14 A: Well, that's pretty much what he said 15 and I didn't remember it until, actually, you brought it 16 up. 17 Q: So -- 18 A: But I remember being there, and I 19 remember what he said and I remember him going off. 20 Q: And so he -- but you didn't remember 21 that until I asked you about it? 22 A: Yes. It was just like a lot of stuff 23 that come out of here, I -- 24 Q: And when I asked you about it, you 25 then remembered it?
1051 A: Yes. 2 Q: But prior to that, you hadn't? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And the -- is it fair -- what you're 5 saying is Mr. Potts got annoyed when you accused the 6 Ontario Provincial Police of drinking across in the bush? 7 A: I just figured they -- they were 8 getting drunk. They had to do something to be acting the 9 way they were acting. 10 Q: Okay. Well, that's an assumption on 11 your part. 12 A: It was an assumption on my part, he 13 went off. 14 Q: And you said that to him -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- and he got angry at you? 17 A: Very angry. 18 Q: Now, on October 15th, the -- I note - 19 - I note from your notes that are marked, "Exhibit 314," 20 that you're going back and forth to Toronto from Camp -- 21 from the Army Camp to Toronto and back; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And then on October 14th or October 24 13th, Friday, October 13th, you're back at the Army Camp 25 actually, October 10th, 11th, there's a note, "SIU Re-
1061 enactment." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that was a re-enactment by 4 certain of the occupiers with the SIU? 5 A: I don't know if it was a re- 6 enactment, I guess the SIU just wanted to see what was 7 going on. 8 Q: And were you present when that 9 happened? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then there's a note: 12 "October 13th waiting to talk to SIU, 13 waiting for evidence from Toronto." 14 And what's that refer to? 15 A: I think that was -- after we handed 16 in the -- the bottles and we wanted some fingerprints off 17 of them to see whose they were and, off the record, of 18 course, the SIU said they did belong to some -- all -- on 19 all the bottles was police officers' fingerprints. 20 Q: Well, let me ask you about that. How 21 -- who -- who said that to you, Mr. Pouget? 22 A: Off the record? 23 Q: Well -- 24 A: It was Jim Kennedy. 25 Q: And -- but, Mr. Kennedy -- did Mr.
1071 Kennedy say that he had access to fingerprints of police 2 officers? 3 A: Off the record? 4 Q: Well, -- 5 A: He said -- he said, Off -- 6 Q: What exactly did Mr. Kennedy say? 7 A: He said everything was off the record 8 and he said that the fingerprints on those bottles did 9 belong to police officers. 10 And he said there was an easy way for them 11 to say that, Yeah, I picked it up and I handed it to him 12 and he handed it on and on and on and that was -- that 13 was his way of saying that nothing was going to happen. 14 Q: And how many -- how many bottles did 15 you give to the SIU? 16 A: We picked up six (6); I picked them 17 up. 18 Q: And you gave six (6) bottles to Mr. 19 Kennedy from the SIU? 20 A: I might have gave them to Wayne Allen 21 or James Harding himself. 22 Q: And where did -- do you know -- where 23 did the six (6) bottles come from? 24 A: Right from the first booze scene when 25 we were picking them up, on the first tape when we were
1081 going up the hill. 2 Q: And that was back on September 13th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the -- did any -- did Mr. Kennedy 5 say anything else about these bottles? 6 A: Not that I recall. 7 Q: And I note there's a reference on 8 October 14th and 15th: 9 "SIU meeting, walking bush, on 8:00 10 a.m. on October 14th." 11 What's that refer to? 12 A: That was -- we were in the -- right 13 in --standing in the middle of that bush, right where -- 14 on the first -- on the first tape that -- that Ted and I 15 took. Wayne Allen was standing in the middle of the 16 elevated spot back in the bush and he was just circling 17 around and watching and to see what he could see from 18 that position. 19 And then he wanted us to -- to walk him 20 the rest of the way through the bush where we walked to 21 6767 and right to where the fifth wheel St. John 22 Ambulance was. 23 Q: And did that take place on both 24 October 14th and 15th? 25 A: Yes, it did.
1091 Q: And the -- was that videotaped? 2 A: Yes, it was. 3 Q: And who by? 4 A: By Ted Harper. 5 Q: And was -- 6 A: And -- and the SIU, the -- the 7 identification guys. 8 Q: And where's that video -- Mr. 9 Harper's video tape? 10 A: It should be with the SIU. 11 Q: And, so that -- that was a separate 12 "walking the bush," from the one on the 13th; what you 13 did is, you went back and tried to re-enact what you had 14 done on September 13th? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, on or about October 15th you 17 told me that you found a NATO -- a piece of equipment 18 that had "NATO" on it? 19 A: Well, it was -- I don't have my -- 20 the piece of paper I had it on, but we went across the 21 road -- actually, Mike Cloud's brother, Blaine, was 22 hunting across the road and that was -- 23 Q: And, "across the road," is -- 24 A: Across the road would have been Outer 25 Drive and Highway 21.
1101 Q: Yes? 2 A: And directly across the road there's 3 a little pathway that runs away from Highway 21. 4 Q: And if you're looking at Exhibit P- 5 40, it's on the east side of the Army Camp? 6 A: It's down here. Move it up a little 7 bit? All right. Where are we at? There's a little gate 8 that runs right down here. Is this the -- this here's 9 the -- there's a little gate that runs right here. 10 Q: Yes? 11 A: See this little path over here? 12 That's a -- 13 Q: You're pointing to a dotted line that 14 runs from Highway -- 15 A: Yeah, there's like a farmer's -- 16 that's a farmer's road where they go back to all these 17 fields back here. Right about here there was a tower, it 18 had solar panels on it, it was -- it was actually on it. 19 It was a tower about maybe a foot by a 20 foot, went straight up, big round communication thing on 21 the -- on the top of it, a little board, big batteries, 22 the batteries were probably about that big and that wide 23 and there was two (2) of them. 24 Q: When you say that big, about four (4) 25 feet by two (2) feet?
1111 A: I'd say 3 1/2 feet by about a foot 2 and a half. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And there was two (2) of them. And 5 then there was a microwave jammer that was attached to 6 the tower. And Dave -- super Da -- or David George, he 7 said, Well we went out there with a bunch of guys and so 8 what do you want us to do. And he goes, Well let's take 9 it. 10 So we took the hacksaws out and we 11 hacksawed it down and brought it to the Army Camp and I 12 said, Let me see that microwave jammer. And I took my -- 13 my pencil, I didn't have any paper, I took actually a 14 piece of paper out of here and scribbled off the numbers. 15 And in the middle of it, I don't know if 16 it was NATO, but it said NATO, but the numbers were NATO; 17 that's what they said. And I don't know what happened to 18 that thing. It just went missing. 19 Q: And this was a piece of equipment 20 that was located south of Highway 21 on this path -- the 21 dotted path on P-40 that runs to the east of -- of the 22 army camp. 23 Now you don't know whose tower that was or 24 whose equipment that was? 25 A: Well after we cut it down -- no, we
1121 don't, we don't know whose it was. But after we cut it 2 down we went to go get the -- I said -- Dave said, Do you 3 want us to go and get the batteries? He goes, Yeah, 4 let's go and get the batteries. So when he went out 5 there to get the batteries, everything was gone. 6 Q: But you don't know whose it was, if 7 it was the army's or someone else's? 8 A: I wish we still had it because nobody 9 like -- nobody took claim to it to this day. 10 Q: And the Ontario Provincial Police had 11 asked for the equipment that they had lost to be returned 12 to them? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And no one asked -- the Ontario 15 Provincial Police didn't come to see you about some 16 equipment -- this equipment and say that they had -- 17 A: Nobody ever said a word. 18 Q: So you have no idea whose equipment 19 was? 20 A: Nobody. 21 Q: Now, you told us earlier about the 22 van that we saw in the first video Exhibit 277, the OPP 23 van that was parked on the Army Camp up by Lake Huron. 24 And you said that the person who drove it there told you 25 that he had driven it there?
1131 A: Yes. His name was Kevin Thomas. 2 Q: Kevin is -- Kevin Thomas? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And he -- do you know where Kevin 5 Thomas lives now? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: And was he at the -- living at the 8 Army Camp at this time? 9 A: He was staying there. I don't know 10 if he was living there. There was a lot of people there. 11 Q: And did Mr. Thomas tell you when he 12 drove the OPP van onto the army camp? 13 A: Well he -- we seen him sneaking in 14 about -- it was late one (1) night and he was coming in 15 from Wallygators or down East Parkway Drive coming into 16 the Park. 17 Q: Wallygators is at the intersection of 18 West Ipperwash Road and Ipperwash Road? 19 A: Yes. But he was coming right where 20 we were in the Park. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And he was on a 10 speed and it was 23 late at night and he didn't know we were still moving 24 around because we were moved back a little ways. And we 25 startled him and we asked him, you know, What are you
1141 doing? We thought he was breaking into cottages or doing 2 something. 3 And then on further questioning the next 4 day, we found out that he stole Hamster's or Abraham 5 George's pipe, Super Dave's Bastard Blaster or David 6 George and he -- he told us that he stole the van and he 7 put the holes in it. 8 Q: And that's the -- and can you tell me 9 when that was that you had this discussion with Mr. 10 Thomas? 11 A: I'd have -- it was -- I'd have to say 12 -- we were moved back, so it must -- after September 13, 13 maybe the 14th or the 15th of September. 14 Q: And in the fall of -- the balance of 15 the fall of 1995, did you go back and forth between 16 Toronto and the Army Camp? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the -- at some point, did you go 19 to a meeting with Mr. Bruce Catton in Thedford? 20 A: Bruce Catton? I don't know, maybe, 21 probab -- didn't -- 22 Q: There was a -- 23 A: I don't re -- I don't recall. 24 Q: Okay. And I note at Tabs 5 and 6 of 25 the book in front of you, there are some notes of
1151 meetings with the Kettle Point police service in February 2 of 1996 and you're shown to be present at both of these 3 meetings? 4 A: Yes, I was. 5 Q: And I take it that these meetings 6 were to discuss with the Ontario Provincial Police and 7 the Kettle Point police, the policing with respect to the 8 Army Camp and the Park? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: And the -- how often -- there are two 11 (2) meetings referred to at Tabs 5 and 6; were there more 12 meetings or were these the last two (2) meetings that you 13 recall? 14 A: I was at a lot of meetings. I know I 15 was at these -- at both of these meetings and where I was 16 talking about if they were going to get the Park back. 17 That was Les Kobayashi's main concern was they get the 18 Park back. 19 Q: And there was -- Mr. Kobayashi was 20 there and there were discussions with him about the 21 return of the Park? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Or -- and the re-opening of the Park, 24 I take it? 25 A: That's what they figured.
1161 Q: And the -- did you -- as a result of 2 these meetings, what decision was made with respect to 3 policing? 4 A: There was supposed to be -- we were 5 looking at a -- at a draft which the OPP said that they 6 used, and it was a -- it was a rough -- it was just a 7 draft, that's all it was. It wasn't no protocol or 8 anything, there was -- we were trying to set up some kind 9 of protocol between the OPP and Kettle Point police, the 10 MNR, some kind of protocol. 11 But the paper that they showed us, it was 12 just a draft and they said that they -- they went by that 13 draft. 14 Q: And this was the deal with policing 15 on the Army camp and on the Provincial Park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Thank you, those are my questions, 18 Commissioner. Thank you, Mr. Pouget. 19 Now, some of my colleagues may have some 20 questions for you. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does anyone 22 have any questions for Mr. Pouget? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1171 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Rosenthal, how long do you think you might be? 3 MR PETER ROSENTHAL: About fifteen (15) 4 minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 6 Jackson? 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: About fifteen 8 (15) minutes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then Ms. 10 Jones? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: About an hour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About an 13 hour? 14 And Ms. McAleer...? 15 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: We'll reserve five 16 (5) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you may 18 have some questions, Mr. Ross, in the end? 19 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I do not anticipate 20 any now, depending on what My -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Depending on 22 what happens. 23 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: -- Friend might do. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's get 25 into it, then.
1181 Thank you, Mr. Rosenthal...? 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 6 Q: Afternoon. 7 A: Hi. 8 Q: I think you know, my name is Peter 9 Rosenthal and I'm representing some of the Stoney Point 10 people under the name -- my Friend is suggesting that I 11 go over to here and I'm happy to accommodate him. 12 Q: As I was saying, I'm Counsel for some 13 people from Stoney Point under the name Aazhoodena and 14 George Family Group, as you know, I think. 15 Now, I'm going to ask you about some of 16 the locations of where some of the bullet casings were 17 evidently found. 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: You have the five (5) page document 20 of your drawings, that has been entered as Exhibit 318? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: If we look at page number 4 of that 23 document, towards the upper right-hand side, one sees the 24 number "223", does that refer to a .223 caliber casing 25 that was found at that location?
1191 A: Yes, it does. 2 Q: And were you actually present when 3 that was found? 4 A: No, I wasn't present at that. 5 Q: You were told that that was the 6 location by someone? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you recall who told you that? 9 A: I believe that was -- that would have 10 been Clayton George, or aka Kokomo. 11 Q: I see, thank you. And then below 12 that, you see it says ".40 cal"? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that would represent a location 15 where a .40 caliber casing was found; is that correct? 16 A: Yes, sir, it was. 17 Q: And do you recall who gave you that 18 information? 19 A: I was at -- I was there when -- when 20 the search team, the OPP search team -- 21 Q: I see. 22 A: -- picked that -- picked that .40 cal 23 up. 24 Q: So you personally observed a .40 25 caliber casing being found at that --
1201 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: -- location? And then to the right 3 of that it also says, ".40 cal"? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That refers to another .40 caliber -- 6 A: It's marked wrong in here, but it was 7 a .40 cal that was picked up at that. 8 Q: I'm sorry? 9 A: In -- in the book it says there was a 10 .40 cal and a .223 that were picked up there, but I 11 witnessed both of them, and it was a .40 cal in both of 12 them that were picked up. 13 Q: So you witnessed two (2) .40 caliber 14 casings picked up -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- at approximately the locations you 17 indicated on this document? 18 A: Yes, they were right on the 19 fenceposts in the grass, both of them. 20 Q: I see. And then to the left you have 21 a part called grassy knoll? 22 A: Yes, the grassy knoll. 23 Q: Not Dallas -- 24 A: A .223 was also -- 25 Q: -- not Dallas, but here in Ontario?
1211 A: Well, that's where Mr. Beauchesne 2 (phonetic) said he was. 3 Q: Yes. And you have a .223 on there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And was that for a .223 caliber -- 6 A: I believe -- I wasn't -- I wasn't 7 there, but I believe that the SIU picked that -- that 8 .223 up. 9 Q: I see. Now, at your Tab 12, I 10 believe, there are a number of documents, if you go -- 11 they're not numbered -- sorry? It's Exhibit P-268, My 12 Friend informs me. 13 And there are a number of documents there, 14 I hope I have the right one. And going from the back, 15 it's -- if you number -- if you go to the back page and 16 call that number 1, I want to count back to get to the 17 page that I'm interested in. 18 One (1), two (2), three (3), four (4), 19 five (5), six (6), seven (7), if I did it correctly, is a 20 page entitled, Evidence collected at south shoulder of 21 Parkway Road? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Do you have that -- that page, sir? 24 A: All the metal fragments? 25 Q: I'm sorry?
1221 A: All the metal fragments would be 3:33 2 or 3:35. 3 Q: I'm sorry? 4 A: 3:35, 600, 3:35, is that it? 5 Q: Yes. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'd say it's the third 7 page from the end -- 8 THE WITNESS: Third page from the end. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Of Exhibit P-268. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay, Thank you. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 14 Q: These documents occur in various 15 forms unfortunately. But in any event, it's the one (1) 16 entitled, "Evidence collected at south shoulder of 17 Parkway Road"; right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, do you know who made this 20 document? 21 A: I don't know, I didn't make this 22 diagram, but when I first immed -- when they just gave me 23 the book about twenty (20) seconds into it, I opened it 24 up and I noticed it was a -- it was supposed to be a .40 25 cal that was picked up there not a .223.
1231 Q: Yes. Well, this does list a -- and 2 number 20 is said to be a gun casing .223 caliber. 3 A: I saw a .40 cal. 4 Q: Sorry? 5 A: I saw a .40 cal. 6 Q: And you saw at the place where number 7 20 is, you saw a .40 caliber? 8 A: Yes. It matched the same one (1) -- 9 it was the same casing as -- as they found the other one 10 (1). 11 Q: And then number 24 says a gun casing, 12 .40 caliber? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that coincides with one (1) of 15 the .40 calibers that you observed; is that correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So your evidence is that you saw at 18 locations 20 and 24 on this diagram, .40 caliber casings, 19 not a .223 caliber? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Is that correct? 22 A: That's what I'm saying. 23 Q: Thank you. Now you told us as the 24 video was being shown or one (1) of the videos was being 25 shown, that you smelled alcohol as you approached some
1241 bottles; is that correct? 2 A: I smelled alcohol in the area, yes. 3 Q: In the area, and was that from one 4 (1) particular collection of bottles, or -- or more than 5 one (1)? 6 A: Just the whole area. 7 Q: The whole area? 8 A: Yeah, the area just smelled -- I 9 could smell alcohol, like hard liquor. I hadn't drank 10 since 1984, I don't smoke. 11 Q: But you remember what it smells like? 12 A: Well, just -- you know, yeah. 13 Q: Yeah. And just so as you approached 14 that area, you -- you smelled the alcohol, you say? 15 A: Yes, I could smell the alcohol. 16 Q: And that was in September -- 17 A: September 13th. 18 Q: -- 13th. And then you returned to 19 the area in October, by then you didn't smell any alcohol 20 I -- 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: Now you also told us you observed a 23 couple piles of beer cans? 24 A: And I could smell the beer also. 25 Q: I was going to ask, did you -- you
1251 smelled beer -- 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: -- at those locations? 4 A: Yes, I did. Except for on the 15th-- 5 Q: I'm sorry? 6 A: The third one (1), I didn't smell 7 those, but I just noticed the -- the pile of cans that 8 were there. 9 Q: But the first two (2) you did? 10 A: The first two (2) I could smell them. 11 The -- the last one (1) I did not. 12 Q: Thank you. Now you told us that Mr. 13 Jim Kennedy of the SIU told you, off the record -- 14 A: Off the record. 15 Q: -- it's now on the record. 16 A: That's -- that's what he said, Off 17 the record. 18 Q: And he told you, off the record, that 19 there were police fingerprints on alcohol bottles? 20 A: Off the record, yes, he did. 21 Q: Now, you told us that there were six 22 (6) bottles involved? 23 A: Yes, I picked the bottles up myself. 24 Q: And you -- you picked them up, you're 25 illustrating carefully, so that your fingerprints didn't
1261 end up on the bottles? 2 A: I put them in the bag. They told us 3 we should have picked them up and put them in paper bags, 4 so that's something I learned, instead of putting them in 5 a -- in a garbage bag. 6 Q: But you indicated that you had picked 7 up these bottles, if I understood your motion correctly, 8 by taking something like a pen or a stick and putting -- 9 inserting it into the front of the bottle, and then 10 lifting up the bottle so that it didn't touch your person 11 at all, just touched the stick, and then you put it into 12 a bag; is that correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that's why your fingerprints 15 would not have ended up on the bottles? 16 A: No, my fingerprints weren't on them. 17 Q: Now, did Mr. Kennedy inform you that 18 there were fingerprints that were identified as being 19 those of police officers on all six (6) bottles, or some 20 of them? 21 A: All six (6) bottles. 22 Q: All six (6) bottles? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And did he indicate approximately how 25 many different officers' prints were involved?
1271 A: He didn't say. 2 Q: He didn't say? 3 A: No. But he did give me a reason why 4 they would be, because they would be handing them back 5 and forth to each other, Oh, look at that, look at this, 6 look at that, and then discarding it. 7 Q: So he suggested that there would have 8 been a lot of prints -- a lot of prints of different 9 Officers on the bottles, because they were probably 10 handing them back and forth to each other? 11 A: Well, they were looking at, well, 12 look who's drinking or not, who's drinking, or who had 13 been drinking them, and they would just discard it. 14 Q: I see. 15 A: He didn't say that the police were 16 drinking, he just said that's what they would say if they 17 get questioned. 18 Q: Oh, I see. I misunderstood you. So, 19 you're suggesting that Mr. Kennedy said to you that if 20 the police were questioned about how their fingerprints 21 were -- were on the bottles, they would indicate they 22 weren't drinking, they were just passing them around to 23 look at the bottles? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: As they -- after they were already
1281 empty of course? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I see. And were those bottles 4 smashed in any way, or were they intact? 5 A: No, they were -- they were all 6 intact. 7 Q: All six (6) of them? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And on what day had you found those 10 bottles? 11 A: Those were on September 13th -- 12 Q: September -- 13 A: -- at or about 06:50 a.m. 14 Q: And do you recall if those bottles 15 themselves smelled of alcohol or not? 16 A: Yes, those bottles did smell of 17 alcohol. Actually they were still wet in the bottom, but 18 that could have been from the dew in the morning, but I 19 did smell alcohol. 20 Q: So in addition to smelling alcohol in 21 the area, you smelled alcohol on those individual bottles 22 as -- 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: -- you picked them up on that 25 occasion?
1291 A: Yes, I did. 2 Q: I believe you said that you saw a 3 coffee cup at some time with an offensive picture on it; 4 is that correct? 5 A: I did see the coffee cup, but I don't 6 remember where I saw it, and Jim Kennedy, again off the 7 record, asked if anyone saw any -- any police officers 8 with a T-shirt with a similar marking, off the record; 9 that he said he saw some police officers wearing the T- 10 shirts, at or about 2:10 a.m., three (3) hours after it 11 happened. 12 Q: At 2:10 a.m. on September 7th? 13 A: On September 7th, yes, when he -- 14 when he got to the scene. He said when he got to the 15 scene, he seen the T-shirts and he was wondering if any 16 of -- anybody in our area saw any -- any police officers 17 wearing the T-shirts. 18 Q: And the T-shirt that he was talking 19 about had what kind of a sign on it? 20 A: The same emblem, the one here on the 21 back. 22 Q: Which is at... 23 A: The very last page -- 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: -- in Tab 13.
1301 Q: I'm not sure if Tab 13 -- 2 A: Team Ipperwash '95. 3 Q: I'm sorry? 4 A: Team Ipperwash OPP -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- with the arrow through it, the 7 fallen warrior sign. 8 Q: And then an arrow? 9 A: Yeah. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Exhibit P-317. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Millar, it's 14 Exhibit P-317, evidently and you're telling us it's the 15 last page of that exhibit. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And Mr. Kennedy was describing that 18 to you as a possible emblem on a T-shirt -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- and he told you that he had seen 21 some officers wearing a T-shirt with that emblem on it 22 when he arrived early in the morning on September 7, 23 1995; is that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then you're indicating that you
1311 saw a coffee cup with the same -- 2 A: Which was later on. 3 Q: -- symbol, but that was some days 4 afterwards? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: Do you recall approximately when that 7 was? 8 A: It would have had to have been before 9 the SIU did the investigation, before the 18th and 19th. 10 It was in that week because I came to town. I was 11 getting film and batteries and more film, Hi-8 tape; 12 that's what Ted needed and I was going to the Fuji place. 13 Q: I see. And you don't recall where 14 you saw it; you say? 15 A: I don't -- I can't remember. 16 Q: Did you just see one (1) such coffee 17 cup? 18 A: I only saw one (1) cup. I only saw 19 one (1). 20 Q: Only on one (1) occasion -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- that's all you saw -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- that insignia on a cup? Thank you 25 very much, sir, those are my questions.
1321 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Rosenthal. 5 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK- JACKSON: Good 10 afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: Mr. Pouget, I want to pick up on your 14 very last piece of evidence, which is a claim by you that 15 Jim Kennedy advised that shortly after his arrival on the 16 7th, he saw an officer wearing a T-shirt bearing a 17 particular emblem, which I understand was the subject of 18 disciplinary matters after the fact, but that I 19 understand is the same emblem that you've just pointed to 20 that appears -- I'm sorry, what tab is it? 21 A: The last tab on -- 22 Q: Tab 13. 23 A: Tab 13 on the last page. 24 Q: Yes, sir, at Tab 13. 25 A: Something to that effect. I don't
1331 know if it's the same -- exact same one because I didn't 2 see the T-shirt. 3 Q: Thank you. Yes, and as my Friend, 4 Mr. Millar, just indicated, it's -- it's Exhibit P-317. 5 Sir, I anticipate that we're going to hear 6 that the T-shirts in question were made up quite a time 7 after the morning of September the 7th. 8 Is it possible, sir, that you're mistaken 9 as to the information that Jim Kennedy conveyed to you? 10 A: That would have been around the 11 October time when I first met him and that's when -- 12 that's when that conversation happened. 13 Q: That's not what I'm asking, sir. I'm 14 asking you, is it possible that you are mistaken, that he 15 conveyed to you that he saw, on September 7th, these T- 16 shirts? 17 A: I'm only saying what he said and when 18 he arrived at the scene, down at the fifth wheel that -- 19 at the St. John Ambulance, that's what he said off the 20 record. 21 Q: Off the record? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I trust you are as confident 24 about that as you are about his other off the record 25 comment --
1341 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- that the SIU had confirmed the 3 presence of fingerprints of police officers on the beer 4 bottles that you had turned over? 5 A: They were liquor bottles. 6 Q: Excuse me, yes, the liquor bottles 7 that you turned over. You're just as certain about the 8 accuracy of that conversation? 9 A: He said, Off the record, ma'am. 10 Q: Sir, I'm -- I'm not asking you 11 whether it's on the record or off the record. 12 A: I'm just saying what he said; that's 13 all he said. 14 Q: And so the answer to my question I 15 trust is, yes, I'm just as certain as to the accuracy of 16 the fingerprint comment as I am as to the accuracy of the 17 T-shirt comment. 18 A: That's exactly what he said, off the 19 record. 20 Q: Thank you, sir. I anticipate that 21 we'll hear from Jim Kennedy and we will hear his evidence 22 on these two points. 23 You saw today a portion -- the entirety 24 rather, of Exhibit P-315 which is a compilation of two 25 (2) videotapes. One (1) involves the videotaping of the
1351 bush area where one clearly sees quite a number of empty 2 liquor bottles. 3 And we've heard from you that that was 4 made on September 13th? 5 A: Yes, ma'am 6 Q: And we also see as part of that DVD 7 or recording, the videotape that was taken of the 8 interior of the St. John's 5th wheel trailer as we've 9 heard it referred to. 10 And as you've told us, you understood that 11 video was taken on September the 8th or the 9th; is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes; that was before we started 14 taking video. 15 Q: Yes, I understand. And from -- what 16 I understand of your evidence, sir, it was after viewing 17 that video of the interior of the mobile trailer or the 18 trailer, I suppose that's redundant, you attended at the 19 trailer to examine it yourself? 20 A: Yes. We were asked to go in and take 21 some more pictures. 22 Q: Okay. And I understand, sir, that 23 you attended for that purpose in the company of Ted 24 Harper and Gord Peters. 25 A: I don't know if Gord was there the
1361 first time or the second time. I know he was around in 2 the area. But I don't know if he was -- if he was -- I 3 know he watched our -- our videotape. 4 Q: If I could take you, sir, to page 21 5 of the fifty-six (56) page block of notes that were 6 provided to us this morning. 7 A: 21? Yes. 8 Q: And you'll see that the entry at the 9 top of the page is referable to Saturday, September the 10 9th, 1995 about 12:45 p.m? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you'll see that it starts off by 13 saying: 14 "Myself and Gord Peters and cameraman 15 Ted Harper went to St. John ambulance 16 command post." 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Does that assist you in refreshing 19 your memory as to whether or not Chief Peters was in 20 attendance with you? 21 A: Well, I guess he was since I wrote it 22 down. 23 Q: That's what I thought. All right. 24 A: Thank you. I've seen these for the 25 first time since I -- since I don't even know when.
1371 Q: No, I understand that, sir. And I 2 trust, sir, that he accompanied you into the St. John's 3 Ambulance trailer? 4 A: I can't remember, ma'am. If he was 5 there he must have went in. 6 Q: Okay. I assume that would be the 7 case as well. And I trust, sir, that upon discovering 8 the liquor bottle, the full liquor bottle and the empty 9 liquor bottle as you've described it, that you would have 10 pointed that out to him. 11 A: Actually, I think he went down there 12 the second time and -- because we already made the 13 videotape. I remember him watching it at Stuart -- 14 Stewart George's house right now where he lives. 15 And I remember him viewing the tape and 16 then he went down; that's -- that's my recollection. 17 Q: Viewing which tape, sir? 18 A: The -- the tape that Ted and I did. 19 The one where he taped over and that's why he went down. 20 Because we taped -- he taped over the inside of it. 21 Q: All right. Did you accompany him on 22 that second occasion? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And it was on that second occasion 25 that you again noticed these two (2) liquor bottles, one
1381 (1) full and one empty? 2 A: Actually by that time the garbage 3 would already been emptied and we picked all the garbage 4 up and I know we handed it to somebody. I don't -- I 5 just don't remember who we handed it to. We handed quite 6 a few bags to the SIU. 7 Q: All right. So your evidence is that 8 according to your notes, Gord Peters attended with you on 9 September the 9th at the command post -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: But you can't say whether or not he 12 went inside the command post? 13 A: It happened 12:45 p.m., I seen Rick 14 Smith around there too. So I'm not sure if he went in 15 either. He's a CKCO reporter. And he was there at the 16 same time also. 17 Q: But your evidence to me, sir, is you 18 can't be certain whether or not Gord Peters went in the 19 trailer? 20 A: I can't recall, ma'am. 21 Q: And I trust, sir, that upon seeing 22 for your own eyes, or with your own eyes the liquor 23 bottles, the two (2) that you've described today, you 24 reported it to Chief -- 25 A: In the garbage can.
1391 Q: Yes, sir. 2 A: Yes. Yes, I did. 3 Q: Yes, I understand what you're 4 allegation is. I trust, sir, you reported it to Gord 5 Peters? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: Okay. We've all viewed the video 8 that was taken September the 8th and the 9th, or the 9th, 9 because we can't tell what day it was taken, of the 10 interior of the trailer. 11 And you'd agree with me, sir, that there's 12 nothing in the video by way of a visual representation or 13 any -- any commentary to suggest the presence of any 14 alcohol or a liquor bottle? 15 A: I don't recall. I didn't hear 16 anything. 17 Q: No. 18 A: I didn't see anything. 19 Q: No. 20 A: But those guys didn't dump the 21 garbage can, we did. 22 Q: Well, perhaps this would be an 23 appropriate time to play an aspect of the video that I've 24 asked My Friend, Mr. Millar, to cue up. We'll watch it 25 carefully, because I'm actually going to suggest to you,
1401 sir, that indeed, the gentleman inside the -- the trailer 2 did dump the contents of the garbage can. 3 A: I'm remembering where the garbage can 4 is, and it was when you go straight in, it would have 5 been right to the right. There's a yellow note pad on 6 the table -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And it was -- the garbage can was at 9 the bottom to the right, of that yellow note pad on the 10 table, and that's the garbage can we went in. 11 Q: Okay, I'm going to ask, sir, that you 12 watch the screen carefully, please. 13 And for the purposes of the record, the 14 time is twenty-nine (29) minutes and five (5) seconds 15 into the recording; that's on the DVD timer -- player, 16 thank you. 17 18 (VIDEO PLAYING) 19 20 A: That was to the left. 21 Q: I beg your pardon, sir? 22 A: That was to the left. The garbage 23 can was over here to the right, the one we dumped. 24 Q: Now you're suggesting, sir, there was 25 more than one (1) garbage can?
1411 A: Well, no, I said where the -- when I 2 walked in there, ma'am, that yellow pad was right in the 3 middle of the table and the garbage can was to the right 4 of that pad, when you walk straight into the door, the 5 fifth wheel; that's the garbage can I dumped, ma'am. 6 Q: You see the difficulty that -- that 7 I'm having, Mr. Pouget, is that it would appear, as we've 8 watched this video, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, 9 that -- 10 A: But you see this here? All this 11 here, ma'am, right up -- right -- this here -- that 12 there, the door is right here when you come in. Okay, 13 this here is up against the wall on the door when you're 14 coming in -- into the fifth wheel. 15 Where I'm suggesting the garbage can was, 16 was over here when you first come in, there's a white -- 17 there's a yellow pad right -- dead smack, right in the 18 middle of the desk and it's to the right of that, that's 19 -- that's the garbage can I -- I dumped, ma'am, when I 20 first walked in there. 21 Q: You'd -- 22 A: I have the advantage, because I seen 23 this while I've been in there. 24 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that the 25 gentleman inside the trailer certainly appeared to be
1421 engaged in a very thorough search of the interior of the 2 trailer? 3 A: And there was more than one (1) 4 garbage can in there, ma'am. 5 Q: That's now your evidence; is it? 6 A: Well, there was garbage cans all the 7 way through there. There was -- 8 Q: Let's go back -- excuse me, Mr. 9 Pouget. I'd like you to answer my question. You'd agree 10 with me, sir, that it certainly appears in the video that 11 the gentleman inside the interior of the trailer were 12 engaged in a thorough search of its interior? 13 A: And I'm tell -- saying that I dumped 14 a garbage can that was directly at the desk, to the right 15 of that yellow pad and that's the garbage can I dumped. 16 Q: And are you suggesting, sir, that it 17 was a different garbage can from that which was captured 18 in the video? 19 A: That's what I'm saying, ma'am. 20 Q: I see, and you're suggesting, sir, 21 that the gentleman in the interior of the van wouldn't 22 have dumped all the garbage cans that were in the 23 trailer? Is that what you'd have us believe, sir? 24 A: They missed the yellow foolscap that 25 was on the top, right there. They picked it up three (3)
1431 times and when I went in there and picked it up, all that 2 stuff was on the bottom of it, the police logs, so they 3 didn't get everything. 4 Q: Sir, are you suggesting that -- that 5 if they had seen -- 6 A: They would have picked it up if they 7 saw it, I know they would have. 8 Q: And they would have made note -- from 9 your experience and your knowledge of those gentlemen, 10 they would have made note if they'd seen any indication 11 of alcohol present in that trailer; right? 12 A: Yes, they would have told me, ma'am. 13 Q: Right. You've told us today, sir, 14 that you observed a full bottle of Smirnoff vodker -- 15 vodka, excuse me, and an empty bottle of the same brand 16 in this garbage can, is that correct? 17 A: Yes, ma'am, it was at the bottom. 18 One (1) was empty and the other one -- the -- the seal 19 wasn't cracked. 20 Q: And you're quite certain about that, 21 I trust? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: I want to take you to page 22 of your 24 notes, sir. 25 And you'd agree with me that your purpose
1441 in keeping your notes was, to an effect, create a record 2 of -- of the significant things that you were observing 3 during the course of your investigation? 4 A: I wasn't investigating, ma'am, I was 5 just a guy writing down -- writing down stuff. 6 Q: You were a guy writing down your 7 observations? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Sorry, you have to verbalize your 10 answers. 11 A: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: Right. And you'll notice, sir, about 13 little more than halfway down the page, it reads: 14 "This is where I noticed a full bottle 15 of Smirnoff vodka in the garbage pail 16 and I made a question of it. Do you 17 think they were drinking, my remark to 18 myself. I hope not." 19 You'd agree, sir, that you don't make any 20 mention of an additional empty bottle in those notes. 21 A: No, because the full bottle wasn't 22 cracked. 23 Q: No, sir, what you're describing today 24 are two (2) bottles, one (1) -- 25 A: It was a brand new bottle, ma'am, the
1451 other bottle was empty. 2 Q: Mr. -- right, there were two (2) 3 bottles; correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you'd agree with me, sir, that 6 you only made reference to one (1) bottle in your notes? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: And there was also a few things that 10 were said that, sure we keep talking, I'm going to keep 11 remembering stuff. 12 Q: Are you suggesting your memory's 13 improving over time? 14 A: Well, not over time, but if we keep 15 remembering stuff, there's a few things I forgot to say 16 at the bridge. 17 Q: All right. I also noted, sir, that 18 on the handwritten note that you put on the videotape -- 19 do you have the videotape in front of you, sir? 20 A: No, I don't, but my hand -- I can 21 remember it. 22 Q: Yes, you might also remember that you 23 don't refer to any empty bottle, do you, sir? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: No.
1461 A: But I do remember it. 2 Q: And you just happened to leave out 3 that detail? 4 A: I remember it, ma'am. 5 Q: What we can be clear on, sir, is that 6 when you looked in the trailer for the first time, the 7 trailer was in no way secured or locked? 8 A: No, ma'am, the door was open. 9 Q: And accordingly, it was accessible to 10 just about anyone who wanted to go into it? 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: Thank you. Mr. Commissioner, I note 13 that the time is 3:40, I still have a ways to go, is this 14 an appropriate time for a break? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I was 16 hoping you might finish and then we'd take a break, but 17 if you think you need or want a break, we could do it 18 now. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'm content to 20 proceed, sir. Excuse me. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 23 Q: You've alleged today, sir, of a 24 threat that you claim was made by Inspector Jim Potts in 25 September of 1995.
1471 A: Yes, ma'am. 2 Q: And as My Friend, Mr. Millar, has 3 already drawn out on the record, you'd agree with me, 4 sir, that, notwithstanding the clearly copious notes that 5 you kept in relation to the incidents at Ipperwash, 6 nowhere in those notes do you record anything referable 7 to a threat made by Officer Potts? 8 A: Correct, ma'am. 9 Q: I trust it is your position that it 10 was a threat that caused you tremendous concern? 11 A: I wasn't afraid. 12 Q: I'm not suggesting that you were 13 afraid, but if we accept what you say is true, it amounts 14 to an attempt to obstruct justice. 15 Did that not concern you? 16 A: I wasn't obstructing justice. He was 17 obstructing -- obstructing justice. 18 Q: Yes, sir, that's actually my point. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Did that not cause you concern, if we 21 accept your allegation as truthful? 22 A: Well, let's see. The cops are 23 calling everybody f'ing that and f'ing this and 24 everybody's not playing on the same page and maybe they 25 were drinking, maybe they weren't. When I suggested it,
1481 he went off. 2 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 3 that there indeed was a conversation involving Officer 4 Potts and Mr. Elijah. 5 And the topic of an allegation made by the 6 First Nations investigators that the OPP officers had 7 been drinking did come up, and that Officer Potts did not 8 lose his cool, but he did make it clear in no uncertain 9 terms, that as fas as he was aware, the OPP officers 10 would not have engaged in such inappropriate behaviour. 11 A: No, ma'am, he went off. 12 Q: Sir, my question to you several 13 moments ago was, did the comment as you've attributed to 14 Officer Potts cause you any concern? 15 What is your answer to that question? 16 A: I was not afraid, ma'am. 17 Q: Did the purported attempt to obstruct 18 justice cause you any concern, sir? 19 A: Ma'am, they already murdered 20 somebody. They -- I'm sure -- he went off. 21 Q: I trust then, sir, that you didn't 22 take any steps to report this comment to the SIU -- 23 A: Well, actually -- 24 Q: Sir -- 25 A: -- I --
1491 Q: Let me finish my question. 2 A: Okay, go ahead. 3 Q: Is it your evidence that you did not 4 report this comment to any member of the SIU? 5 A: I didn't remember it until Mr. Derry 6 brought it up, Mr. -- 7 Q: Mr. Millar. 8 A: -- Mr. Millar brought it up 9 yesterday, or on Friday when we were talking about it, 10 that's when I remembered it. 11 Q: So -- 12 A: And I remember being in front of the 13 SUV with Glen Bannen, Mr. Potts, Layton Elijah and 14 myself. 15 Q: And so it's your evidence that 16 Inspector Potts, whom, I trust you had known, been an 17 officer with the RCMP for over thirty (30) years, were 18 you aware of that? 19 A: Thirty-six (36) years at -- 20 Q: Prior to his -- 21 A: -- that time. 22 Q: Prior to his joining the OPP. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: What you're alleging is that he made 25 a threat of physical harm, in front of the chief of the
1501 Anishnaabek police, that's what you'd have us believe? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you didn't write it down in any 4 of your notes? 5 A: I don't know how I didn't, but I 6 remember it. 7 Q: And you didn't convey it, at any 8 point, to the SIU? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: And the first time it just happens to 11 spring to mind, is when you learn from Mr. Millar at the 12 end of last week that this is an allegation that Mr. 13 Layton Elijah is making? That's the first time it 14 springs to mind? 15 A: I remember the conversation, ma'am, 16 and that's how it happened. 17 Q: You referred, sir, at the end of your 18 examination by Mr. Millar, to negotiations towards a 19 protocol -- 20 A: It was a draft. 21 Q: Sir, let me finish my question, 22 please. 23 A: Okay, ma'am. 24 Q: Are you aware, sir, that that 25 protocol was actually signed and finalized in April of
1511 2003? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Thank you, sir. Mr. Commissioner, 4 those are my questions, thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 Let's take a break now and we'll do Ms. Jones after the 7 break. 8 We'll do you after the break, we'll take a 9 break now. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: That's fine. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 12 okay? 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, sounds fine. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 3:44 p.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 4:02 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25
1521 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES. 2 Q: Mr. Pouget, my name is Karen Jones. 3 I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the Ontario Provincial 4 Police Association. 5 A: Yes, ma'am. 6 Q: And I wanted to take you back to 7 September the 7th, I think that's the day you said that 8 you arrived at Ipperwash? 9 A: Yes, ma'am. 10 Q: Is that right? 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: And you've talked a little bit -- Mr. 13 Millar had asked you some questions about the barricades 14 that you saw that had been put up when you arrived? 15 A: On the road, ma'am? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. And I wanted to ask you, it 19 sounds like during the entire time that you were at 20 Ipperwash -- 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: -- you spent quite a bit of time in 23 and around the Park and the base. 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: So I wanted to ask you some questions
1531 about some of the things that you saw in and around the 2 Park area. 3 And for the first part of it in terms of 4 the barricades, those were the sand bags that are filled 5 -- that were filled; is that right? 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: And did you have any knowledge or did 8 you talk to anybody about where the sand bags came from 9 or how they were filled or how they got there? 10 A: Well, they were green so I -- I 11 figured they were probably from the military, like extra 12 bags up in the Army Camp and they just got filled with 13 sand because there were shovels all over the place. 14 Q: Okay. And when you say there were 15 shovels all over the place, were the -- 16 A: Well, maybe we'll say -- we'll say 17 six (6) to ten (10) shovels. 18 Q: Okay. And where did you see the 19 shovels? 20 A: The shovels would have been, let's 21 see, probably by the nearest sand pile. There was some 22 to the right of -- 23 Q: If you -- if you turn around behind 24 you, Mr. Pouget -- 25 A: There was -- there was a sand pile
1541 here. 2 Q: And -- and just because what -- one 3 (1) of the things that will be helpful is they have a 4 record of what you're pointing to and you are looking at 5 the diagram behind you which is a version of P- -- 6 THE REGISTRAR: P-313. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 9 Q: Okay, 313 and you're pointing to an 10 area that is at the north end of the sandy parking lot 11 right by what looks like the driveway; is that right? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And there's sand -- 15 Q: So there was some shovels up there -- 16 A: Right here. 17 Q: -- and some digging had gone on? 18 And -- 19 A: And some sand right -- 20 THE REGISTRAR: Use the hand mike please, 21 Mr. Pouget. 22 THE WITNESS: Pardon me? 23 THE REGISTRAR: Could you use the hand 24 mike, please, sir? 25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
1551 There's some sand right in this area here. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Okay, and when you say, "this area 5 right here," what you're pointing to is an area at the 6 south end of the sandy parking lot and it's a sandy... 7 A: The grassy knoll? 8 Q: It looks like there's the little 9 sandy out-posting there, outcrop. 10 A: Yes, the grassy knoll area. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There's lots of sand in there. 13 Q: Okay. And there had been digging 14 going on in that area? 15 A: Well, there was -- there was little 16 holes everywhere. I don't know, maybe the sandbags were 17 already full and -- and they brought them down. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I never seen anybody digging or -- 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: -- or anybody transporting the 22 sandbags, all I know is that they were there. 23 Q: Okay. And when you say, "little 24 holes everywhere," I take it you mean holes both in the 25 sandy areas, both immediately inside the Park, the fence
1561 to the Park and outside in the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yes, ma'am. 3 Q: Okay. And we heard some evidence 4 earlier in this Inquiry about a backhoe being used to 5 move some sand around and to dig some holes; were you 6 around when the backhoe was being used for that purpose? 7 A: I seen the backhoe, but I never seen 8 it move. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I never -- like, I never -- I never - 11 - I never witnessed the backhoe driving around, like, 12 driving around in the Park. 13 Q: Okay. And when you got to Ipperwash 14 on September the 7th, can you help us understand a little 15 bit about the condition of the area in the sandy parking 16 lot? We've heard, for example, that at one (1) point in 17 time there was stones and shields and rocks and other 18 debris in that area. 19 Had that been cleaned up by the time you 20 got there? 21 A: When I was at the bridge when I first 22 came down -- 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: -- there was two (2) individuals, one 25 (1) I -- I got to know was Al George and the other was
1571 Gabriel Doxtator and they were at the bridge -- at the 2 bridge where the -- there -- 3 Q: By the water treatment plant inside 4 the Park? 5 A: -- by the water treatment plant and 6 they informed me that on the -- on the night of the 6th, 7 that when the building was burning, that they saw people 8 cleaning up -- 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: -- like picking up sticks and that -- 11 that's what they indicated to me. 12 Q: Right, okay. And one (1) of the 13 other things that you spoke a little about was, you said 14 at the period of time when the Camp was moved back to 15 the bridge by the water treatment plant, you talked about 16 the bus being parked there? 17 A: Yes, ma'am. 18 Q: And by, "the bus," I take it you mean 19 the school bus? 20 A: Yes, ma'am. 21 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you, in 22 the period of time between you got to Ipperwash on the 23 7th and during the course of time you were there, did 24 you, yourself, go into the bus? 25 A: No, I did not, ma'am.
1581 Q: Okay. Did you see others going in 2 the bus or using the bus to drive around in? 3 A: I didn't see the bus moving, ma'am. 4 Q: Okay. Did you see the bus get -- get 5 moved or how the bus got to the area by the water 6 treatment plant? 7 A: No, I didn't see the bus -- I seen 8 the bus there, but I don't recall anybody driving the 9 bus. 10 Q: Okay. And we've also heard some 11 evidence about Warren George's car. 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: And when you got to Ipperwash, do you 14 recall where the car was? 15 A: When I seen the car, it was parked 16 right here. There's a tree here, ma'am -- 17 Q: And, sorry -- 18 A: Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 19 Q: -- when you -- when you say here 20 again, this is try and make sure that it's clear for the 21 record what you're referring to. 22 You were talking about -- 23 A: This here -- 24 Q: -- an area that is east of the bridge 25 inside the Park by the water treatment plant.
1591 A: Yes, there's a -- there's a -- 2 there's a big -- maybe an oak tree or -- there's a tree 3 right there. It was -- the first time I seen the car, it 4 was parked right underneath it. 5 Q: Okay. And did you look at the car or 6 did you see others look at the car during the time you 7 were at Ipperwash? 8 A: Well, when I seen the car, I seen the 9 bullet holes and -- and that the window -- I really 10 wasn't -- I just seen the bullet holes in -- in the -- in 11 the passenger side. 12 Q: Okay. So, you just looked at it from 13 the outside? 14 A: Yes, I was really talking to 15 everybody when I showed up, well, anybody that would-- 16 that was going to say anything. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Most people I didn't know. 19 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the things that 20 you had told Mr. Millar was that you had discussions with 21 people and you got information about what had happened 22 before you got there. 23 And one (1) of the things I wanted to ask 24 you about is if you can give us some assistance on who, 25 if anyone, had found casings or bullets or slugs or that
1601 kind of thing and where they found them? 2 And I just wondered if we can sort of 3 slowly and carefully go through a list. You had first of 4 all -- can you tell us which people told you that they 5 had found casings or slugs or -- 6 A: Stewart Bradley George. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Aka Worm 9 Q: And what did Stuart tell you that he 10 found, what did he find and where did he find it? 11 A: Actually I didn't talk to anybody. 12 All -- I asked them where they found them and I just 13 wrote them down on a little map. And that's -- that's 14 what I did. I just asked them where they found stuff. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And -- and they told me where they 17 found them. 18 Q: Okay. When you say you wrote -- you 19 put them down on the little map, which little map did you 20 put them down on? 21 A: Well, it might have been -- the ones 22 where I made these out of, there was -- there was another 23 book. And I don't know where it went. But I know I made 24 a little map where everybody said -- 25 Q: Okay.
1611 A: -- or the people that -- the ones 2 that I had down here, those are the ones that they told 3 me where -- where they found them. 4 Q: Okay. Now we've looked at a number 5 of different maps that you put together and one was a map 6 that Mr. -- you were just asked some questions about. 7 And it's in that package of maps. 8 A: Page number 4? 9 Q: Yeah. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Does -- does that represent all of 12 the -- and -- and sorry, just to go back a little bit and 13 to be clear for the record. This is Exhibit Number -- 14 THE REGISTRAR: 318. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 17 Q: 318. And we're looking at the 4th 18 map there and you were -- you had pointed out some of the 19 areas where there were bullets or casings found. And 20 just to be clear, on the lefthand side of the map, up by 21 the area that says 'grassy knoll' -- 22 A: Yes ma'am. 23 Q: -- there's a .223? 24 A: Yes, that was found on top of the 25 hill.
1621 Q: Okay. And that was found by? 2 A: Like I said either it was the SIU or 3 someone told me it was there. I'm pretty sure it was the 4 SIU that found that one. 5 Q: Okay. You -- you're not -- you're 6 not sure. 7 A: I'm not 100 percent sure, ma'am. 8 Because I wasn't standing right there when it -- when 9 they picked it up. 10 Q: Okay. And than when we move to the 11 right of the diagram and this would be the south end of 12 the sandy parking lot where East Parkway and Army Camp 13 Road meet, it looks like there's some diagrams where the 14 A-frame and those buildings were; do you see that? 15 A: Yes. Yes, ma'am. 16 Q: And there's a -- it looks like a 17 ninety- nine (99). 18 A: Yes, that's a nine (9) and a nine 19 (9), a 9mm and a 9mm. 20 Q: Okay. Two (2) 9mm's? 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: And a .223? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And those you said were found by 25 Clayton?
1631 A: I -- I believe he found the .223, I'm 2 not sure who told me to put the 9mm's right there. At -- 3 next to it right in the A-frame. 4 Q: Okay. And then you've told us that 5 along side the south end of East Parkway where there's a 6 .40 cal and .40 cal? 7 A: Yes. I was present on those. 8 Q: Those were found during the SIU 9 investigation so -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- oh sorry, the joint investigation? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Around September 18th or 19th? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: Okay. And then if we look at the 16 north side of East Parkway, there's an area that says 17 "garbage bin" -- 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: And again there's two (2) 9's, does 20 that -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- mean that there were two (2) 9 23 mm's? 24 A: Yes, ma'am. 25 Q: And do you know who found those?
1641 A: There was a whole bunch of guys 2 there. I -- I could say it was either Dave, David 3 George -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I think Mikey was -- Mike -- Mike 6 George. 7 Q: But you're guessing. You don't -- 8 you don't -- 9 A: I'm not 100 percent. Because I 10 didn't know everybody then. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And I was just putting -- just 13 marking down where people picked stuff up. 14 Q: Okay. And to the left of that, it 15 looks like there's a laneway? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: Is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And again there's two (2) 9's? 20 A: Actually there was five (5) 9mm's 21 there. 22 Q: Five (5) 9mm's there? 23 A: Yes. And they were all in one (1) 24 spot. Like -- just like one little say a five (5) inch 25 diameter circle.
1651 Q: Okay. And who found those? 2 A: I -- I'm not sure if I seen them or 3 someone told me that they were there. 4 Q: Okay. And there's also a .223 there? 5 A: Yes; that's on the driveway. 6 Q: Okay. And was that found by the same 7 person or a different person? 8 A: Again, I mean -- 9 Q: You don't know? 10 A: No, ma'am, I don't recall. 11 Q: Okay. And then moving further to the 12 left and this looks like the laneway that's closest to 13 the sandy parking lot on the north side, there's a 9mm; 14 do you see that? 15 A: Sandy parking lot? 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: Oh, yes, the 9 and the three (3) 18 .38s? 19 Q: I -- I just see a 9mm on mine. 20 A: Right by the dumpster? Right -- 21 Q: No, no, by the -- no. If you move to 22 the right. 23 A: That one? 24 Q: Keep going. No, down to -- down to 25 the laneway, the first laneway by the sandy parking lot,
1661 so further to the right. Yeah. 2 A: Right here? 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: Yeah, those are the five (5) 9 5 millimetres I -- that's the five (5) 9 millimetres that-- 6 Q: That's -- that's the five (5) 9 mm's. 7 A: Yes, they were -- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I'm sure I seen these. I must have 10 seen them because, like, that's what I'm remembering, 11 they were about -- in a pack about that big. 12 Q: You saw these personally? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when would you have seen these? 15 A: It would have been -- heck, I don't 16 even -- because there was a big -- there's a big bush, 17 not a -- it's not a bush, it was about like -- it's not a 18 fern, oh God, like a pine tree that -- that kind of grows 19 up and, about maybe two (2) feet off the ground. It was 20 in the pines and on the grass right underneath. 21 Q: Okay. And that's something you found 22 yourself? 23 A: I was with people. I didn't pick 24 them up, I was with -- I was with people that picked them 25 up.
1671 Q: Okay. So, that would have had to 2 have been after September the -- 3 A: It would have been maybe on the 8th, 4 the morning of the 8th or in the afternoon or something - 5 - something around there. 6 Q: Okay. Some time around the 8th -- 7 A: Yeah, when I got -- when I got back 8 there. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I might have got there in the 11 afternoon. 12 Q: Okay. And then if we keep on going 13 to the left and that takes us to, it looks like the fence 14 line that runs between Ipperwash Park and the sandy 15 parking lot, there's a notation that says: 16 "Bullet in post bottom centre." 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Do you see that? 19 A: Yes. I believe the SIU pulled both 20 of those bullets out of those trees or the posts that 21 were there. 22 Q: Okay. There -- it says: 23 "Bullet in post bottom centre." 24 And above that it says: 25 "Bullet in tree --"
1681 A: Okay. Then that's -- 2 Q: "[something] bottom." 3 A: Okay. It says: 4 "Bullet in tree..." 5 Q: "Tree lower bottom." 6 A: "Lower bottom." 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And then the other says: 9 "Bullet in post bottom centre." 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: So, I -- I would have -- I would have 12 seen the SIU, I believe the SIU did pull them out. 13 Q: Those are both SIU's? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And then when we go above 16 that, which is, again, at the south end of the sandy 17 parking lot around the gate area -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- it looks like there's three (3) 20 .38's and one (1) 9mm? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you know who would have found 23 those? 24 A: Pierre was -- I believe it was -- it 25 might have been August of '96 when he was putting up the
1691 arbour. He was putting up the four (4) posts and he was 2 cleaning up and it was -- it was in the spring -- it was 3 -- I got it -- I think it might have -- might have been 4 in August and it was actually before September 6th, so it 5 must have been in August, late August -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- and he found -- he found the -- 8 the .38's and the 9 millimetre. 9 Q: And by, "Pierre" you mean Pierre 10 George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And -- 13 A: He turned them in. 14 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea, 15 then, of when you would have made this map? I take it it 16 would have been some time in -- 17 A: Actually, I made the map and I was 18 adding stuff to it. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: That's what I was doing. 21 Q: Okay. So, you continued to add stuff 22 in through the summer of August of '96? 23 A: Yes, ma'am. 24 Q: Okay. So, to your knowledge, then, 25 this is all of the casings or bullets or shells or any
1701 material of that kind that was found both by the 2 occupiers and by the SIU? 3 A: I know there's a few more -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- but I'm not 100 percent sure if -- 6 if -- if it was Dave George that has them. I'm not -- 7 I'm not sure, but I -- I believe there is a few more that 8 -- that didn't get handed in. 9 Q: Okay. Well, I was just going to ask 10 you some questions about what -- what was found versus 11 what was handed in because I take from looking at this 12 diagram that you've put together, adding them up, that 13 there would have been two (2), three (3), four (4), five 14 (5), six (6), eleven (11). 15 If I'm right, there would have been eleven 16 (11) casings or bullets or that kind of material that had 17 been found prior to the SIU coming in on September 18th 18 and 19th? 19 A: I've got eighteen (18). 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I didn't count Pierre's ones. 22 Q: No, no, that's right. 23 A: And -- 24 Q: Because, I -- the question I had for 25 you was how many casings or bullets, or that kind of
1711 material, had been found by the occupiers -- 2 A: I want to say -- 3 Q: -- prior to the SIU coming in? 4 A: -- I want to say I had forty-three 5 (43) spent shells in my hand, and I did have them in my 6 hand, and I'm not a 100 percent sure if they all got 7 handed in. 8 Q: You had forty-three (43) -- 9 A: Yes, ma'am -- 10 Q: -- in your hand? 11 A: -- there was forty-three (43) of 12 them. 13 Q: Okay. And when did you have forty- 14 three (43) in your hand? 15 A: It would have been -- they would have 16 been in my hand, and then I gave everything to Layton. 17 Layton had everything, so he had it before the SIU came 18 on the 18th and 19th. Layton -- 19 Q: And where did you get the forty-three 20 (43) in your hand from? 21 A: We knew that the SIU would be coming 22 in and gathering evidence -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and they said that the area was 25 contaminated. So we really didn't have much hope in --
1721 well, I felt that we didn't have -- that was my 2 assumption, that we didn't -- that there wasn't much 3 hope, because the area -- they said that was 4 contaminated. 5 Q: Because so many people had been in 6 the area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so many people had been picking 9 up so many things? 10 A: Yes, and -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: -- being a Military Base and there 13 was lots of rounds all over the place, and whose rounds 14 were whose. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: So I'm sure that -- I don't know how 17 many of the forty-three (43) that I had, got handed in. 18 Q: Okay. And is there some reason that 19 you can -- that you know of, or did you have any 20 information about why all forty-three (43) wouldn't have 21 been handed in? 22 A: No, but I know that there were some 23 that were in plastic bags, there was like three (3) or 24 four (4) in a plastic bag and two (2) in another plastic 25 bag, like little -- little tiny ziploc bags, but they
1731 weren't ziploc bags, they were just like plastic -- 2 plastic bags that they were in. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And those were handed in. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And that was all that was in my hand, 7 just -- just about like that. And I handed them all -- 8 we put them all in a big bag, like a little bag, and I 9 handed those to Layton. 10 Q: Okay. But again, my question was do 11 you have any knowledge or information or belief about why 12 all of the forty-three (43) weren't handed over to the 13 SIU? 14 A: I don't have -- I don't have an 15 answer for that, ma'am. 16 Q: Okay. And can I ask you to turn to 17 Tab 13 of your book, which is Inquiry Document 3000380. 18 A: Yes, ma'am. 19 Q: And it's P-317. Now, in my tab, and 20 I'm not sure what's in my tab is exactly the same as 21 yours. If I go about two thirds (2/3) of the way through 22 the tab -- this isn't there? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1741 Q: We're just going to take a minute, 2 Mr. Pouget, and Mr. Millar's going to be kind enough to 3 put some -- a document up on the screen. 4 One (1) of the things that happens 5 sometimes is the way that we get documents from the 6 Commission is a number of them can all have the same 7 number, but they're not necessarily all in your binder, 8 that have the same number. And so we'll just see if we 9 can find this. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Okay, and what you'll see behind you, 14 Mr. Pouget, is a typed page. And when I compared that to 15 your notes it looked like some of the information was 16 essentially verbatim from your notes, so I wanted to ask 17 you whether or not this was a document that you made or 18 you helped someone create? 19 A: No, I didn't make this, ma'am. 20 Q: No? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Have you ever seen it before? 23 A: No, first time. 24 Q: Okay. Well, we can pass on that, 25 then. Can I ask you then, Mr. Pouget, to look at your
1751 package of notes that Mr. Millar gave to you this 2 morning? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: Okay. And I wanted to see if you 8 could turn to the third page in, and that's the page that 9 is numbered "2" at the top right-hand corner. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And if you look about two-thirds 12 (2/3) of the way down the page, there's a reference to 13 something that came through the grapevine. And this 14 portion of your note looks like it's dated -- if you look 15 at the page before, it looks like it's from October 11th, 16 1995. 17 And I take it that at the time you were 18 making your notes, you continued to hear rumours or hear 19 information from people, and you put them down as you 20 went along, is -- 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: -- that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Would you like to know about that?
1761 Q: No, not if it's something that came 2 through the grapevine. But I wanted to ask you, then, to 3 turn the next page, which is page number 3. 4 A: Yes, ma'am. 5 Q: And if you look on the one (1), two 6 (2), three (3), four (4), five (5), six (6), sixth line 7 down -- 8 A: One (1), two (2), three (3), four 9 (4), five (5), six (6). 10 Q: -- it starts off with a listing of 11 casings or shells that were found. 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: And I take it that this list, because 14 it's going on from the October 11th, 1995, page 1 would 15 have been written in or around October of 1995? 16 Does that make sense? 17 A: Yes, I believe it -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- it was. 20 Q: And can you tell me whether this is a 21 listing of the casings that, to your knowledge, had been 22 found, to date? 23 A: Yes, I believe they were all handed 24 in, these particular ones. But, again, I'm not a 100 25 percent sure.
1771 Q: Okay. But -- just -- my question 2 was: does the listing of what had been found, and you've 3 two (2) .223 casings, six (6) 9mm casings and two (2) .40 4 calibre casings and one (1) lead shell in a post, and one 5 (1) lead shell in the bus. 6 Did that represent all of the casings or 7 shells, to your knowledge, that had been found as of 8 October 1995? 9 A: The one in the bus, I believe, the 10 OPP extracted that one. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And they were -- the SIU were putting 13 the long rods together to try to show the trajectory of 14 the -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- of the bullet. 17 Q: But my question, again, was: To your 18 knowledge, as of that time, did that represent all of the 19 casings or shells that had been found? 20 A: I believe there was more, but these 21 are -- I just wrote these ones down. 22 Q: Okay. Was there a reason that you 23 wrote these down and not all of them down? 24 A: I don't know. I think maybe it was 25 supposed to help me remember something, but I'm not
1781 remembering. 2 Q: Okay. And you go on, then, to talk 3 about a man counted six (6) rounds, hitting all around 4 him in the bush. 5 Who does that refer to? 6 A: I think that was David George. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Because he said he was standing right 9 behind the bus and he says, He got me, and he said he got 10 -- he could hear them whizzing by him. 11 Q: Okay. So when it says, "six (6) 12 rounds all around him", that refers to -- 13 A: Probably would be the sand behind 14 him. 15 Q: -- in the -- right by the bus area, 16 is that right? 17 A: He said he was standing -- he said he 18 was standing in this area here. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: And the rounds that he heard hit the 21 sand -- see is around here somewhere. He said they hit 22 in this sand area back here. 23 Q: And again what you're pointing to, is 24 you're pointing -- first of all where he was standing 25 which is at the intersection of Army Camp Road and East
1791 Parkway on the north side right at the corner as it 2 curves around. 3 And then you're saying where the bullets 4 were hitting, you've pointed to the area that we've 5 called the grassy knoll in the sandy parking lot -- 6 A: Yes, ma'am. 7 Q: -- is that right? 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: Okay. And if I can ask you then to 10 turn to page 13 of your notes. And this is an entry 11 that's dated September 15th, 1995. Have you got that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you've got an entry there that 14 talks about infiltrators coming in from Outer Drive 15 carrying automatic weapons with night vision. 16 And I wondered if you could help us 17 understand what that refers to? 18 A: Yes, ma'am; that was where the 19 Walpole, DFH guys were. 20 Q: I'm sorry? 21 A: Walpole Island; that's where the 22 Walpole Island guys were at -- right at this area. It 23 would have been on Outer Drive and -- 24 Q: Mr. Millar again is going to help us 25 and put the map of the base up. So we've got --
1801 A: Right on this side. 2 Q: -- P-40 up on the screen which is the 3 map of Ipperwash Military Reserve. 4 A: Right on Outer -- right on Outer 5 Drive, right in this area here. This is where -- 6 Q: Okay. And you're using your pointer 7 to show an area on Outer Drive that is and about the top, 8 what, quarter? 9 A: It's almost right by Port Franks. 10 Q: Almost right by Port Franks? 11 A: Yes. You can see -- you can see the 12 cottages from that. 13 Q: You can see the cottages from there, 14 okay. 15 A: And David Isaac which is Robert 16 Isaac's brother -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: --- Robert Isaac was -- it would have 19 been about -- okay on this day and it was about 3:00 in 20 the afternoon when -- we -- we were back, me and Ted had 21 an audio tape but I don't know where it went. 22 And Dave Isaac, which is Robert's brother-- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- and a bunch of the guys from DFH or 25 the Friendship and Honour Club, they were -- they were at
1811 that section on Outer Drive. 2 And Dave Isaac was hiding in the bush the 3 night before and he noticed or not noticed, he -- he -- 4 there was -- he couldn't count how many because he was 5 scared. He's the one that said he saw automatic weapons 6 and looked liked night vision, and they were dragging 7 stuff out to vans that were waiting on Outer Drive. 8 Q: Okay. So let me go back a little bit. 9 This entry is dated September 15th so it sounds like these 10 observations that David Isaac told you about, were made 11 during the evening -- 12 A: The evening or the morning -- the 13 morning hours -- 14 Q: -- or early in the morning when it was 15 still dark. 16 A: Actually it probably could have been 17 on the same day as the 15th, but the early morning hours. 18 Q: Okay. When it was still dark? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And he said he saw people with 21 automatic weapons -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- and night vision going from the 24 base -- 25 A: Yes.
1821 Q: -- out into -- out onto Outer Drive? 2 A: Yes, they were dragging big boxes or 3 like kind of like a barrack box. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: They were dragging stuff out to 6 waiting vans on Outer Drive and then they left. 7 Q: Okay. And did he tell you how many 8 people there were or how many automatic weapons he saw? 9 A: I just remember the story and how -- 10 how he said it and I haven't really -- we haven't talked 11 about it since then. 12 Q: Okay. And then you go on, further on 13 down in that same paragraph, to talk about: 14 "We the Peacekeepers taped some footprints 15 and one rifle butt imprint in the 16 sand." 17 And can you tell us what you're referring 18 to there? 19 A: That would have been -- 20 Q: And again, you're looking at P-40, the 21 diagram of Ipperwash Military Reserve? 22 A: There's -- there's a road that runs 23 right along the edge of Outer Drive, and the Army Camp. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: There's a road, they run parallel.
1831 Q: Okay. 2 A: About halfway down this -- halfway 3 down this road -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- right about in here. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: There was footprints coming in, and it 8 was -- and it was at three o'clock, because I've got it 9 noted in -- in my book here. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: And that it was in the afternoon, but 12 the sand -- the sun wasn't on that side yet, and it looked 13 like Army or Military boots and a rifle butt. And I'm 14 pretty sure we got a tape of it somewhere. I -- I know -- 15 I know Ted taped it. 16 Q: Okay, so a videotape was made of it? 17 A: Yes, there was a videotape. 18 Q: Okay, and -- 19 A: And it -- 20 Q: -- you don't know where that tape is 21 now? 22 A: I don't know if we handed it -- 23 Q: Have you seen it recently, did you 24 review it -- 25 A: No, I have not. I haven't seen --
1841 Q: -- what was -- 2 A: -- it since then. 3 Q: Okay. And you also talked earlier 4 about an audiotape, when you were speaking about the 5 incident with people going from the base out to Outer 6 Drive with automatic weapons? 7 A: Yes, we were -- there was -- there was 8 an audiotape, and we were -- we just had a tape recorder 9 sat down, and I'm not even sure whose it was but I know it 10 was playing. 11 Q: Okay. Okay. And so you captured on 12 that audiotape, David Isaac's version of events; is that 13 right? 14 A: Dave Isaac and his other brother 15 there, I don't know his name, I think it's his brother, 16 he's El Presidente, he's from the Friendship and Honour, 17 he's -- he's the president of the Friendship and -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- Honour Club. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And he was also talking about it. 22 Q: Okay. And do you know where that 23 audiotape is now; no? Okay. 24 A: No, I have no idea, ma'am. 25 Q: And then can I ask you to turn to page
1851 17 of those notes. And -- and before I -- I go a lot 2 further with the notes, can you help us at all about when 3 you put these notes together? 4 Did you make them at the time or did you 5 create them after the fact? 6 A: I had another book. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: And -- and I was just writing in it, 9 just like I've got lots -- lots of these things. 10 Q: Sure. 11 A: I've got another one (1) in here that 12 I made in 1997. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: Of stuff. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And I don't know what -- 17 Q: So in your other book you were keeping 18 notes as events happened? 19 A: As I was going along, yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And then I would just write stuff down 22 and when it come to me, and write it down. 23 Q: Right. And how then did this set of 24 documents get put together? 25 A: I remember this -- this one (1).
1861 Q: Well, let -- let me go back to when 2 you made these notes? 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: Because you've talked about in your 5 first book that you made notes -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- at the time of things happening. 8 And then it looks like at some point in time you copied 9 that down into another book -- 10 A: Yes, ma'am. 11 Q: -- is that right? And did you copy 12 down into the other book, everything that was in the first 13 book? 14 A: I could have left stuff out. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I can't even remember. 17 Q: I take it you would have copied down 18 things you felt were important? 19 A: Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: Okay. And do you have any 21 recollection at all about when you did that? 22 A: It would have been before -- before 23 Halloween that year. 24 Q: Okay. So before October 1995? 25 A: Right -- right in that area sometime,
1871 you know, Halloween '95, the 31st of October or first part 2 of November, right around that time. 3 Q: Okay. So we're back on page 17 then 4 of those notes, and there's an entry of August 26th, 1995. 5 And it says: 6 "Ask Buck what happened to 30-30 round." 7 Can you tell us what that entry's about? 8 A: Yes, well -- 9 Q: First of all, I take it Buck is Isaac 10 Doxtator? 11 A: Yes, ma'am. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: The 30-30 round, I remember this, the 14 30-30 round was found at the store, we call it at the hole 15 in the fence right along Army Camp Road, which would be -- 16 Q: And again, you're looking at P-40, and 17 you are looking at the diagram on the left hand side of 18 the diagram on Army Camp Road. And you're pointing to an 19 area that is south of Matheson Drive? 20 A: There's a little store right here. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: You know, that it's a -- it's a little 23 camp -- campground. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And there's a little store there.
1881 Q: Okay. 2 A: And that's -- and that's where that 3 30-30 round was -- was found in -- right on -- I don't 4 know what happened to it. 5 Q: And who found the 30-30 round? 6 A: I believe it was Terry Doxtator -- or 7 not Terry -- Terry George, but I'm not a -- 8 Q: Do you know -- 9 A: -- 100 percent sure. 10 Q: Do you know when it was found? 11 A: Probably right around that -- that 12 time. 13 Q: Some time around October of '95? 14 A: Yes, ma'am. 15 Q: Okay. And then you go on: 16 "Ask Martin or Layton about pipe and 17 sawed-off shotgun that was thrown over 18 the fence behind Dudley's house with a 19 handful of 20 30-30 casings September 11th or 21 September 12th, night time." 22 Can you tell us what that's about? 23 A: That's -- I never seen any of that and 24 I just heard about it and I just wrote it down. 25 Q: Okay. What -- what was your
1891 information about that? 2 A: Well, I was going to ask Martin or 3 Layton. 4 Q: Sure. 5 A: He's over there, he might know. 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: And -- but that's -- I wrote it down I 8 never did see the shotgun or see the -- the pipe or -- or 9 the rounds. 10 Q: Okay. And by, "Dudley's house," do 11 you mean the trailer -- 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: -- that Mr. George had? 14 A: That had been out on the highway. 15 Q: Okay. And do you remember who told 16 you that a pipe and sawed-off shotgun had been in the 17 fence -- had been behind Dudley's house on September 11th 18 or 12th? 19 A: I don't recall, but I -- I -- I see I 20 did write down Martin or Layton, so "Martin" would have 21 been Martin Doxtator. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And "Layton" would have been Layton 24 Elijah. 25 Q: Okay. And then you have an entry in
1901 brackets below that: 2 "Master Blaster was on it." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Can you tell -- can you tell us what 5 that's about? 6 A: That -- yes, that was when Kevin 7 Thomas told us that he stole the Master Blaster -- the 8 Bastard Blaster. It's actually supposed to be, "Bastard 9 Blaster." I didn't -- didn't know anything about it, I 10 just wrote it down and -- and he stole the pipe -- Abraham 11 George's pipe. 12 Q: Okay. And were you there when Kevin 13 Thomas said these things? 14 A: Yes, I was, ma'am. 15 Q: And when did that happen? 16 A: That would have happened -- I want to 17 say, probably about September 14th -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- only because there was a sentencing 20 circle and he -- I wasn't the only person there, there was 21 about maybe twelve (12) other native people that were 22 there -- 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: -- and he told everybody. 25 Q: Okay. And did you have any
1911 information about what happened to the pipe or the sawed- 2 off shotgun after they were found behind Dudley George's 3 trailer? 4 A: No, ma'am. 5 Q: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Now, Mr. Millar earlier had shown you 10 the portion of a -- of a video that dealt with the OPP 11 van? 12 A: Yes, ma'am. 13 Q: And I think that you had told us that 14 that was a van that, from your understanding, Kevin Thomas 15 had taken? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. 17 Q: And that it was found or you had seen 18 it in the beach area of the Base? 19 A: In the dunes. Yes, ma'am. 20 Q: Okay. Now, one (1) of the things I 21 wanted to ask you about was, when I looked at the video, 22 it looked like there were a number of holes in the van? 23 A: Yes, ma'am. 24 Q: Did you see that? 25 A: Yes, ma'am.
1921 Q: Did you -- when you were looking at 2 the van and videotaping it, did you count those holes or 3 did you ask Mr. Thomas about how they got there? 4 A: Well, actually, it was done by -- with 5 a -- do you know what a fire axe looks like? 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: The reverse side, the pick part? 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: That's what he used. 10 Q: Okay. And you had told Mr. Millar 11 that in March of 1996 you and Roderick George found a full 12 metal jacket? 13 A: Yes, ma'am, it was a .40 cal. 14 Q: Okay. And can you tell us where you 15 found it? 16 A: Yes, ma'am. We found it right in this 17 area. Actually, ma'am, all of this -- this whole terrain 18 here, the whole corner was changed. 19 Q: Okay. And just -- just to slow down a 20 bit, again, you're showing the diagram of the sandy 21 parking lot and you're pointing to an area right by the 22 grassy knoll. 23 A: Yes, ma'am. Right in here there's a-- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- there's a -- there's a telephone
1931 pole -- 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: -- and there's a light on it now. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: And we found it right by that 6 telephone pole. There's a big sand mound there now. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And that's where we found it, right 9 there. 10 Q: Okay. And did you find -- when you 11 say you found a full metal jacket, was that -- does that 12 mean that you found an empty rifle casing? 13 A: No, ma'am, it was the -- it was the 14 bullet itself -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- the slug. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And the tip of it was copper plated -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- and then -- and then lead. 21 Q: Okay. So you found a spent 9mm slug? 22 A: Yes, ma'am. 23 Q: And did you also find an empty rifle 24 casing at the time? 25 A: I don't believe we -- I don't believe
1941 we found one (1) then. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But the slug was -- it looked like it 4 ricocheted off the pavement, because it was -- it was 5 perfect like that, just it was dented in. It looked like 6 it hit the payment and then skipped up into the sand. 7 Q: Okay. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And I just want to -- okay. Then if 12 you look at your binder of documents that's in front of 13 you, I just had a few questions about other -- some other 14 documents here. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 16 sorry, before we go on, I'm wondering if we could have the 17 notes of Mr. Pouget that I've been referring to, made the 18 next exhibit? 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-319. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-319. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-319: Notes of Ben Pouget September 23 04-October 27/'95, 55 pages. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:
1951 Q: And if you look at Tab 3, of your 2 binder, and hopefully we'll be looking at the same thing. 3 A: Yes, ma'am. 4 Q: And for the assistance of Counsel, 5 it's Inquiry Document 1001816. 6 And if you turn to page 3 of that document, 7 which is the Special Investigations Unit Follow Up report. 8 A: Yes, ma'am. 9 Q: You'll see that the third paragraph 10 down on that page talks about on January 20th, 1996, 11 you're bringing to the attention of Investigator Kennedy, 12 that there was a tire with a bullet lodged inside it? 13 A: Yes, ma'am. 14 Q: Do you recall that? 15 A: Yes, I do, ma'am. 16 Q: Okay. Can you tell me when you 17 discovered that there was a bullet in the tire? 18 A: I can't recall when we discovered it. 19 But we made a question to Warren George of what happened 20 to that back tire and he said it got shot out, but he 21 wasn't sure, because it was flat. And he still had the 22 tire in the trunk, so we took it to the garage and we give 23 it a shake and it was still in there. 24 And I believe Roderick George, myself and 25 Warren George and we shook it, it was in there. So then I
1961 guess we called Jim Kennedy, or Wayne Allen. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I know -- I know we talked to them 4 both. 5 Q: Okay. And if you turn over to page 14 6 of 15 of that document, you'll see there's an entry from 7 February 11th of 1996, where it -- at the bottom, and it's 8 timed at 1:55 p.m. And it talks about being -- that 9 Layton Elijah handed over to Investigator Kennedy, a flat 10 tire and rim from Waldo's car. 11 Were you there or around during that period 12 of time? 13 A: I probably was. 14 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 15 that's the tire that you're -- 16 A: I would have to say that is the tire. 17 Q: Okay. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: And, Mr. Commissioner, I 19 think those are all my questions, thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 very much. 22 Ms. McAleer...? 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: We don't have any 24 questions. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...?
1971 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 5 Q: Mr. Pouget, from -- for the record 6 only my name is Anthony Ross. Now when you were being 7 questioned by Ms. Tuck-Jackson you made reference to 8 something around the bridge. Do you recall that? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And you said there was something that 11 you wanted to talk about but you didn't remember. 12 A: She helped me out on that. 13 Q: Well, could you perhaps just clear it 14 up for us. What -- what did you want to talk about? 15 A: Al George and Gabriel Doxtator when I 16 was speaking with them on -- on the bridge, they were -- 17 they were telling me that on the night of the -- it would 18 have been the morning of the 7th, when the building was 19 burning, they noticed people cleaning up around the area 20 in question at the sandy parking lot. And they said they 21 seen people picking stuff up. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: And it wasn't them because they were 24 still at the bridge. 25 Q: I see. So some people were at the
1981 scene apparently gathering -- picking things up. 2 A: Yes; that's what -- that what Al 3 George and Gabriel Doxtator told me. 4 Q: Now there was also reference to your 5 notes. The package of notes that you handed in, fifty- 6 five (55) pages. Now have you ever worked in law 7 enforcement? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: I see. So how do you -- did you have 10 any special training as far as compiling records from 11 perhaps an accident scene or some form of a problem area? 12 A: Only at Bahbou Island Security 13 (phonetic); that's it. 14 Q: Only what? 15 A: Bahbou Island Security, from 1986 to 16 1990. 17 Q: Yes. I want the nature of the work 18 that you were involved in. If you can give it to us in 19 just a short an -- a short answer. 20 A: Driving ambulance, handling fights and 21 alco -- when people drunk, you know, things that happen in 22 an amusement park. 23 Q: Yeah. Is it fair to say then that the 24 notes that you've compiled were not intended to be a 25 chronology of information as it came to you?
1991 A: I was just writing stuff down, no, 2 sir. 3 Q: You were just writing stuff down from 4 time to time to refer to maybe some time in the future? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Ms. Tuck-Jackson also asked you about 7 drinking and inappropriate behaviour of police officers 8 and why you didn't report this information to superiors. 9 Could you perhaps elaborate on that? 10 Did you see any point in making a report? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 12 Jackson may have some -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What -- Ms. Tuck- 14 Jackson asked the question in terms of Mr. Potts. Did Mr. 15 -- did he make -- say anything to the SIU of anyone else 16 about the allegation by -- the statement of Mr. Potts; 17 that's what was -- 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's entirely 19 correct, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 23 Q: Now that we have that clear, Mr. 24 Pouget, why didn't you think it was -- why didn't you make 25 a report to anybody?
2001 A: There was a lot of stuff going on and 2 honestly, I didn't remember until we were talking about it 3 on Friday. 4 Q: Yeah, but back then when it happened, 5 is there a reason why you didn't report it then? 6 A: There was a lot of reasons why I 7 didn't report anything then. 8 Q: Well, perhaps you can -- 9 A: Nobody was going to listen. 10 Q: Okay fine, thank you. In response to 11 questions from Ms. Jones, you refer to this slug, this -- 12 this bullet that you found which was a full metal jacket, 13 now where did you get those terms, full metal jacket. 14 A: I hear the police using them. 15 Q: The police? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: I see. So at the time that you found 18 the bullet, you didn't classify it as a full metal jacket 19 but you learned later it was a full metal jacket? 20 A: No. I would just, you know, pay 21 attention to when they were collecting evidence down -- 22 like when they were pulling out of the trees and out of 23 the -- out of the round post, and that it was a lead slug 24 and not a full metal jacket. 25 Q: I see.
2011 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, those 2 are my questions. Thank you, Mr. Pouget. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Ross. Mr. Millar any re-examination? 5 6 RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Just one (1) question following up on 8 this. A full metal jacket is a term, a military term for 9 military firearm isn't it, a bullet used in a military 10 firearm? 11 A: It would have been Roderick and 12 myself, we saw that there was -- it was definitely skipped 13 off the pavement and there was copper on the end of it and 14 -- and lead, and we may have came to the -- to the 15 conclusion at the same time. And he may have said it 16 first, or I may have said it first, but that's the term we 17 came up with. 18 Q: But the question I asked is do you -- 19 from your time in the military, is a -- the term full 20 metal jacket not refer to a copper -- slug with a copper 21 cover on it that's used by the military as opposed to 22 civilians and others? 23 A: I believe anybody can use a full metal 24 jacket. 25 Q: Okay. And the first time that you met
2021 Jim Kennedy was on or about -- in or around October, the 2 middle of October 1995, is that correct? 3 A: I'm not a 100 percent sure, there was 4 six (6) men from the SIU that came down to -- and they 5 came through to the army -- the gate, and we went down to 6 the park. And Jim Harding was one (1) of them, Wayne 7 Allen was one (1) of them, the two (2) Ident guys for the 8 SIU, and there was two (2) other guys. I'm not 100 9 percent sure if -- if Jim Kennedy was one (1) of them. 10 Q: And that's back in September of '95? 11 A: Yes, I would have -- 12 Q: But -- 13 A: -- yeah, I remember him in September. 14 Q: Kennedy in September? 15 A: Yes, because I -- I went to Kettle 16 Point with -- I was at the Council office in Kettle Point; 17 that's where we first met. I met Jim Kennedy in -- in 18 Kettle Point, in -- in the Band Office. 19 Q: I'm just trying to sort this out, 20 because I think you told My Friend, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, that 21 you first met Mr. Kennedy in October of 1995? 22 A: I believe -- because -- and I'm 23 remembering that he wore a brace, and I -- I believe I -- 24 I seen a person in -- in -- when we were meeting the OPP 25 and the SIU together, we -- we met at the -- at the Kettle
2031 Point Band Office first. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: And I seen -- I remember -- I remember 4 seeing a gentleman with a brace on, and I thought that may 5 have been Jim Kennedy. 6 Q: But you didn't know at the time? 7 A: That's what I'm thinking now. No, I 8 didn't know. 9 Q: And the first time you spoke to him 10 was in October of '95? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: The -- around October 15th -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- or 14th? 15 A: That would have been the time I would 16 have spoke to him. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 18 Commissioner, those are my questions. 19 Mr. Pouget, I wish to thank you very much 20 for coming, particularly since you had to work all last 21 night and then come here today. So, I wish to thank you 22 very much for attending. 23 THE WITNESS: You're welcome, thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much for coming and giving us your evidence, Mr.
2041 Pouget. Thank you for that. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 4 drive an hour and a half to get to Detroit everyday? 5 THE WITNESS: I'm not working tonight, I 6 called in at five o'clock this morning. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. 9 THE WITNESS: All right, sir. Thank you. 10 11 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before we 14 close, I just wanted to alert My Friends that I handed out 15 a two (2) page document at the break; that's a Bell 16 Telephone account, and it's actually four (4) pages, 17 because there's -- it's double-sided copied. And that is 18 the document that'll be referred to in Mr. Leighton 19 Elijah's examination tomorrow morning. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Shall we 21 adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. -- 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: At 9:00 a.m. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- and we'll 24 start with Mr. Leighton Elijah? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes.
2051 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 3 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, April the 5th, at 9:00 4 a.m. 5 6 --- Upon adjourning at 5:59 p.m. 7 8 9 10 Certified Correct 11 12 13 ________________________ 14 Dustin Warnock 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25