1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 3rd, 2006 25


1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Megan Ferrier ) (np) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) (np) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) (np) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) (np) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) (np) Residents of 17 Cameron Neil ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 Kevin Scullion ) (np) 19 20 William Henderson ) (np) Kettle Point & Stony 21 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 22 Colleen Johnson ) (np) 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kim Twohig ) Government of Ontario 4 Walter Myrka ) (np) 5 Susan Freeborn ) (np) 6 Sheri Hebdon ) (np) Student-at-law 7 8 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 9 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 10 Nora Simpson ) (np) Student-at-law 11 12 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 13 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 14 Jennifer McAleer ) 15 16 Ian Smith ) (np) Robert Runciman 17 Alice Mrozek ) (np) 18 19 Harvey T. Strosberg, Q.C.) (np) Charles Harnick 20 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np) Marcel Beaubien 4 Mary Jane Moynahan ) (np) 5 Dave Jacklin ) (np) 6 Trevor Hinnegan ) 7 8 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 9 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 10 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 11 12 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 13 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 14 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 15 Ian McGilp ) (np) 16 Annie Leeks ) (np) 17 Jennifer Gleitman ) 18 Robyn Trask ) 19 Caroline Swerdlyk ) (np) 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 3 Brian Eyolfson ) (np) Services of Toronto 4 Kimberly Murray ) (np) 5 Julian Roy ) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Linda Chen ) (np) 8 Chris Darnay ) (np) 9 Sunil Mathai ) (np) 10 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 11 12 Al J.C. O'Marra ) (np) Office of the Chief 13 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 14 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 15 Matthew Horner ) (np) 16 Kathleen Lickers ) (np) 17 18 Mark Fredrick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 19 Craig Mills ) (np) 20 Megan Mackey ) (np) 21 Peter Lauwers ) (np) 22 Erin Tully ) (np) 23 Michelle Fernando ) (np) 24 Maanit Zemel ) 25 Patrick Greco ) (np)


1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 4 Anna Perschy ) (np) 5 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 6 Adam Goodman ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 8 4 Opening Comments 10 5 6 MICHAEL JOHN DOUGAN, Sworn 7 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 11 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 157 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 162 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 200 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Cameron Neil 205 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Julian Roy 236 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer Gleitman 259 14 15 MARK KETIH DEW, Sworn 16 Examination-In-Chief Mr. Derry Millar 272 17 18 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 307 21 22 23 24 25


1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1228 Ipperwash Checkpoints map, September 4 05-06, 1995, Exhibit entered 5 April 03, 2006. 6 P-1260 Document Number 2005544. Curriculum 7 Vitae of Michael John Dougan. 12 8 P-1261 Document Number 2005590. Handwritten 9 notebook entries of Mike Dougan, 10 February 27, 1995. 20 11 P-1262 Document Number 2005592. Handwritten 12 notebook entries of Mike Dougan, 13 July 29-30, 1995. 26 14 P-1263 Document Number 2005590. Handwritten 15 notebook entries of Mike Dougan, July 31, 16 August 01,02, 07-11, 31 and September 01, 17 1995; July 31, September 01, 1995. 33 18 P-1264 Document Number 2003460. Handwritten 19 Interview Report of Make Dougan, 20 July 29-31, 1995. 43 21 P-1265 Document Number 2000832. OPP handwritten 22 Interview Report of Mike Dougan, 23 August 11, 1995. 47 24 25


1 EXHIBITS (con't) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-1266 Document Number 2003459. OPP 4 handwritten notebook entries of 5 Constable Mike Dougan, August 31 to 6 September 08, 1995; August 31, 1995 7 to September 08, 1995. 54 8 P-1267 Document Number 2003459. Typed and 9 handwritten statements fo M.J. Dougan 10 (undated). 230 11 P-1268 Document Number 5000018. Interview of 12 Const. Dougan by Det. Armstrong, 13 London Police, for the Office of 14 the Chief Coroner, March 11, 2003. 259 15 P-1269 Document Number 2005551. Curriculum 16 Vitae of Mark Keith Dew 275 17 P-1270 Document Number 2005588. Handwritten 18 notebook entries of Mark Dew, May 19 28-29, 1994. 277 20 P-1271 Document Number 2005587. Handwritten 21 notebook entries of Mark Dew, May 20, 22 1995. 282 23 P-1272: Document Number 2003453. Handwritten 24 notebook entries of Mark Dew, Project 25 Maple, July 29, 1995 to October 04, 1995. 284


1 --- Upon commencing at 10:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everyone. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin today, 11 there's just one housekeeping matter. We marked, I think 12 it was last week, a copy of one of the checkpoint maps 13 for the period September 5 and 6, 1995 as Exhibit P-1228. 14 And at the time we did not a coloured copy 15 nor did we have a copy that had the correct nomenclature 16 for the East Parkway Drive and West Parkway Drive. We 17 have a copy of all three (3) of the checkpoint maps this 18 morning; the coloured copies which I've distributed to My 19 Friends. 20 And I would ask that we mark the coloured 21 copy of September 5-6 checkpoints as the actual Exhibit 22 P-1228; we had reserved the number for it. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Ms. Hensel's going


1 to be doing the next witness, Mr. Dougan. 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good morning, 3 Commissioner. The Commission calls as its next witness, 4 Michael Dougan. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Dougan. 6 MR. MICHAEL DOUGAN: Good morning. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, do you prefer to 8 swear on the Bible or affirm. 9 MR. MICHAEL DOUGAN: On the Bible. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Would 11 you state your name in full for the record please. 12 MR. MICHAEL DOUGAN: MICHAEL JOHN DOUGAN. 13 14 MICHAEL JOHN DOUGAN, Sworn 15 16 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 17 Q: Good morning, Mr. Dougan. I 18 understand that your current rank is Acting Sergeant? 19 A: That's correct, yes. 20 Q: All right. Thank you. And I'm going 21 to take you -- or refer you to the Brief of Documents in 22 front of you. We're going to start off with a few 23 questions about your professional background. 24 If you turn to Tab 1 of the Brief of 25 Documents, can you identify the document that appears


1 there? 2 A: Yes. It's a background of my 3 policing career. 4 Q: All right. And for the record that's 5 Inquiry Document Number 2005544. 6 A: Yes, that's correct. 7 Q: Okay. And I'd ask that that be 8 entered as the next exhibit. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-1260, Your Honour. P- 10 1260. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1260. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1260: Document Number 2005544. 14 Curriculum Vitae of Michael 15 John Dougan. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 18 Q: And I see from that document, 19 Sergeant Dougan that you've been a Member of the Ontario 20 Provincial Police since March of 1986? 21 A: That's correct, yes. 22 Q: And that you were a Provincial 23 Constable from 1986 to 2001 and that you were made an 24 Acting Sergeant in 2001? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. And that document also 2 provides a summary of the -- the courses that you've 3 taken as an officer? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And is the information that's 6 reflected there correct? 7 A: There's one (1) change to be made, I 8 was a Breathalyzer technician in September of 1988 -- not 9 '88 -- '98. 10 Q: All right, thank you. And I also see 11 that you were assigned to the Sombra Detachment in 1986; 12 is that correct -- 13 A: That's correct, yes. 14 Q: -- as a Constable? And that you 15 moved to the Petrolia Detachment in 1994? 16 A: That's correct, yes. 17 Q: Okay. I also see that from 1988 to 18 1994, you were a member of the Crowd Management Team? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that in 1994 you became a member 21 of the Emergency Response Team? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: We understand from other witnesses 24 that the Crowd Management Team was -- that the name of 25 that particular team merely changed to Emergency Response


1 Team. 2 So it was the same -- essentially the same 3 unit or team; is that correct? 4 A: I -- to a certain extent there was 5 some people that chose not to take the training. 6 Q: Okay. And can you describe if you 7 will, the -- first of all, the initial training that you 8 received as a member of the Crowd Management Team? 9 A: The Crowd Management Team met on a 10 monthly basis to conduct training exercises. We also met 11 once a year for a provincial wide training exercise. 12 Q: Okay. And you also -- you received 13 your -- I see in your -- your CV or your curriculum vitae 14 here that you received initial Crowd Management training 15 in Petawawa in June of 1989; is that correct? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: Okay. And how long was that 18 training, if you can recall? 19 A: That was one (1) week. 20 Q: A one (1) week training? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And you also received 23 Emergency Response Training in Meaford, Ontario in 24 October of 1994? 25 A: That's correct, yes.


1 Q: Okay. And did the -- in your view 2 did the role of the team change when it changed from 3 Crowd Management Team to the Emergency Response Team? 4 A: It changed quite drastically. We had 5 added responsibilities, so there was six (6) weeks of 6 actual training at Meaford. 7 Q: Okay. And can you describe, in a 8 summary fashion, what those added responsibilities were 9 in your view? 10 A: Sure. Part of the training was crowd 11 management which was the first week, and we spent two (2) 12 weeks of containment training, two (2) weeks of search 13 and rescue, and the last week was made up of VIP 14 security, witness protection. 15 Q: Okay. And did your role, as a member 16 of the newly formed Emergency Response Team, did you view 17 that as different as your role as a member of the Crowd 18 Management Team? 19 A: Yes, quite a bit different. 20 Q: How so? 21 A: More training, more responsibility. 22 Q: All right. Were you trained to deal 23 with a wider variety of situations in your view? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And how did you come to be selected


1 as a member of the Crowd Management Team in 1988? 2 A: Say that again? 3 Q: All right. Do you know how you came 4 to be selected as a member of the Crowd Management Team 5 in 1988 when you first joined that team? 6 A: There was a member from our office 7 who -- who had left the Crowd Management Team and I was 8 interested so I applied. 9 Q: All right. And at that time what 10 sort of screening process did you go through? 11 A: There wasn't much of a screening 12 process when it was Crowd Management. 13 Q: All right. And did that change in 14 1994 with the change in the teams? 15 A: To a certain extent, you had to pass 16 a physical fitness test and you had to have satisfactory 17 scores in your Emergency Response Team training. 18 Q: All right. Thank you. So in 19 September of 1995 you were a provincial constable with 20 the Lambton OPP Detachment; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And prior to 1995 did you have 23 experience in dealing with policing of First Nations 24 communities? 25 A: Yes, I -- most of my career has been


1 spent working in and around the communities of Walpole 2 Island. 3 Q: And that was when you were assigned 4 to the Sombra Detachment? 5 A: That's right, yes. 6 Q: And can you describe the work that 7 you did in relation to that community? 8 A: During the time I worked in Sombra 9 the Walpole Island Police Force was -- wasn't adequate 10 enough to respond to calls 24/7 so when an officer on 11 Walpole Island wasn't working we would respond to the 12 calls. 13 So it was just part of our zone. And when 14 they were working, when the officers were working, we 15 worked with them, backed them up on calls; they would 16 back us up at calls in our south end. We had a good 17 working relationship with the officers on Walpole Island. 18 Q: Okay. And how would you characterize 19 -- so you had direct contact with community members at 20 Walpole Island First Nation as well? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And in your view did -- what 23 was your relationship with -- with the community members 24 you had contact with? 25 A: It was a good relationship. I got


1 involved in a few charitable events when we were off- 2 duty. When we were working we were well received on 3 Walpole Island by most of the people that were down 4 there. 5 Q: And at any point in your career have 6 you received any training with respect to policing First 7 Nations communities or any other aspects of First Nations 8 culture? 9 A: I did receive some training but I 10 can't recall exactly when that happened. 11 Q: Okay. And can you describe the 12 nature of that -- that training, understanding that it 13 sounds like you don't have really great recollection of 14 it but... 15 A: No. 16 Q: Prior to September of 1995, or rather 17 the summer of 1995 more correctly, what did you know 18 about the situation in the Ipper -- Ipperwash area 19 relating to CFB Ipperwash? 20 A: Most of my information came from 21 media coverage. And my understanding of the situation 22 there was the Military Base, the property there, belonged 23 to the First Nations people prior to the Second World 24 War. 25 The Government took it during that time to


1 train their -- their military personnel and -- with the 2 promise that they were going to give the property back 3 and they never did and it dragged on and it didn't seem 4 there was an end in sight and the people in the area were 5 rightfully so being -- were becoming frustrated with the 6 process. 7 Q: Okay. Did you ever receive any 8 information prior to the summer of 1995 from the OPP 9 about the situation in Ipperwash? 10 A: I don't remember if I -- if I did 11 receive any information. 12 Q: And did you ever have any discussions 13 with your fellow officers or superiors about that 14 situation? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. So prior to 1995, and I'm 17 speaking specifically about February of 1995, which we 18 will come to, prior to February of 1995, did you ever 19 have occasion as a member of the crowd management team or 20 emergency response team to attend at either Kettle and 21 Stony Point First Nation or CFB Ipperwash? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And did you ever have any -- any 24 other reason as a constable, any of your other policing 25 duties, to be called to either location?


1 A: No. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Turning now to February of 1995. I 6 understand you were called out as a member of the 7 emergency response team -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- to respond to an incident at a 10 house at Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: Okay. And if I can take you to Tab 2 13 of your notes, or Tab 2 of the brief of documents in 14 front of you. Sorry, getting ahead of myself. 15 For the record, what appears there is 16 Inquiry Document Number 2005590. Can you identify that 17 document? 18 A: Yes, those are my notes from the 27th 19 of February, 1995. 20 Q: Thank you, and I'd ask that those 21 would be entered as the next exhibit. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1261, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1261: Document Number 2005590. 25 Handwritten notebook entries


1 of Mike Dougan, February 27, 2 1995. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 5 Q: Thank you. And first of all, do you 6 have independent recollection of that particular callout? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: And what can you recall? 9 A: I recall that -- that we were going 10 to contain an area round a residence, so that officers 11 could execute a -- an arrest warrant. 12 Q: Okay. And where were you stationed, 13 in relation to the -- to the house that was at the heart 14 of the incident? 15 A: From my recollection, I was on the 16 outer perimeter. 17 Q: How far was that from the house? 18 A: I don't -- I don't' remember. 19 Q: And what was your role at the outer 20 perimeter? 21 A: The outer perimeter was to contain 22 and not allow anybody into the scene or anybody to leave 23 the area. 24 Q: Okay. And what was your -- what was 25 your knowledge as to what was happening within the inner


1 perimeter and at the house itself? 2 A: My understanding, they were 3 negotiating with the person to -- to give themself up. 4 Q: Right. And that there was a person 5 barricaded within the house? 6 A: That's right, yes. 7 Q: And what was your role -- or, I'm 8 sorry, you've described your role on the outer 9 perimeter, how did that go for you? 10 A: I was -- it was -- it was frustrating 11 because in a normal containment scene -- we hadn't been 12 deployed as a ERT unit for very long, because the 27th of 13 February was -- we just had the training back in October 14 of the previous year, so we hadn't had that many 15 containment calls. 16 And most of the calls I -- you'd get 17 cooperation from -- from people coming to your road -- 18 roadblock. In this case, people were ignoring us and we 19 were getting very little cooperation. 20 Q: Okay. And so there were people -- 21 you did have contact with community members at Kettle and 22 Stony Point? 23 A: There was people -- were coming by 24 and they -- they weren't really recognizing our authority 25 to be there or -- and they were questioning us as to why


1 were there as well. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So it was something new to me to -- 4 to deal with. 5 Q: Okay. And did people proceed past 6 the -- inside, rather, the outer perimeter? 7 A: There could have -- 8 Q: Did they get past you? 9 A: -- there could have been, yes. 10 Q: There could have been? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And just to go back, had you 13 ever, as a member of the crowd management team, had you 14 ever participated in a containment call? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And had you ever participated in a 17 containment on a -- on First Nations territory or on a 18 reserve? 19 A: There was one (1) occasion, but I 20 don't remember if it was before or after this incident. 21 Q: Okay. So, you've described that 22 you've worked in and near a First Nation from 1986 23 through 1994. Did you experience at Kettle Point, with 24 respect to Band members' attitudes or maybe issues with 25 respect to your presence there, did that come as a


1 surprise to you -- 2 A: It was something new. 3 Q: -- based on your -- 4 A: Yes, it was, a bit of a surprise. 5 Q: Why was it surprising? 6 A: You're used to a certain -- certain 7 number of people in society who will question why you're 8 there and won't recognize your authority and will give 9 you a hard time, but it seemed that it was everybody who 10 was giving us a hard time. 11 Q: Or everyone you encountered. 12 A: Everyone I encountered, yes. I 13 wouldn't say it was everybody, but everyone I 14 encountered. 15 Q: Okay. And can you recall your -- 16 your departure from Kettle Point or how that situation 17 resolved -- was resolved? 18 A: The -- the person that they were 19 trying to arrest gave himself up. 20 Q: And at some point, you left the 21 reserve? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And prior to your leaving the 24 reserve, it sounds from your description anyway, or is it 25 fair to say that you didn't feel welcome as a police


1 officer there? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. And what -- so what was 4 your next involvement in the -- in the area with First 5 Nations communities in the area of Ipperwash? 6 A: My next involvement would be on the 7 29th of July, 1995. 8 Q: Okay. And at that point, I 9 understand you were called out to CFB Ipperwash and the 10 surrounding area; is that correct? 11 A: Yes, that's correct, yes. 12 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 3 of 13 your notes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: What we have there is Inquiry 18 Document Number 2005592. And Sergeant Dougan, do these 19 represent your -- your notes from July 29th, 1995? 20 A: Yes, I recognize these as my notes. 21 May I refer to my note -- actual notebook as well? 22 Q: Yes. Yes, you may, as long as you 23 can confirm that what is -- appears in your notebook also 24 appears at Tab -- at the document at Tab 3. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. I see, also, that your notes 5 from July 30th, 1995, just for completeness of the 6 record, are included at that document at Tab 3. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Can you also confirm that those are 9 your -- your complete notes from that time? 10 A: Yes, they are. 11 Q: Okay. If I could make the document 12 at Tab 3 the next exhibit. Those are the notebook 13 entries of Sergeant Dougan from July 29th to 30th, 1995. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1262, Your Honour. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1262: Document Number 2005592. 17 Handwritten notebook entries 18 of Mike Dougan, July 29-30, 19 1995. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 22 Q: And first of all, do you have 23 independent recollection of the callout on July 29th, 24 1995? 25 A: Yes, I do.


1 Q: All right. Can you tell us what you 2 can recall? 3 A: Yes. I -- from my -- 4 Q: And I note that you're -- you're 5 referring so -- you're relying on your notes at this 6 point to refresh your memory? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: At -- at 22:49 I attended the 10 Ipperwash Military Camp to standby while the military 11 personnel left. 12 From what I can remember, it was -- wasn't 13 very eventful in that there wasn't any issues or problems 14 that occurred at the time. The military personnel had 15 left and we were there mainly just to be a presence to 16 ensure everyone's safety. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall receiving any 18 briefings or information prior to your attendance at CFB 19 Ipperwash? 20 A: I remember attending the Forest 21 Detachment at 16:10 hours for a briefing. I don't 22 remember exactly what the contents of that briefing were. 23 Q: And at any rate, when you attended at 24 CFB Ipperwash, do you recall what you understood about 25 what was taking place there?


1 A: My understanding was that there had 2 been some ongoing tension between the occupiers and the 3 military personnel, that the military personnel did not 4 feel safe with the situation as it was, so they decided 5 to leave. 6 Q: Okay. And again, you've described 7 this earlier, but your role as a member of the ERT there? 8 A: Standby and keep the peace. 9 Q: And did you proceed onto the Army 10 Base at any point? 11 A: No, we -- we remained at the front 12 gate. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether you 14 received any instructions about whether you should go 15 onto the Army Base? 16 A: My understanding was we were told not 17 to go onto the Army Base. 18 Q: And were you told why? 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: And where were you situated in 21 relation to the front gate or the main gate at -- at CFB 22 Ipperwash? 23 A: We would have been standing just 24 outside of the gate. 25 Q: About how far if you can remember?


1 A: I don't remember. 2 Q: All right. And could you hear any or 3 did you -- did you communicate with -- first of all with 4 any members of the Military? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. And did you overhear any -- 7 any officers or -- or overhear any -- any words spoken by 8 members of the Military? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And did you have any conversation 11 with any First Nations people who were present at the 12 time? 13 A: No, just trying to remain neutral so 14 I really wasn't making any conversation or talking with 15 any -- either party. 16 Q: And can you describe for us if you 17 will the -- the scene, how many people were there and 18 where they were located, if you can recall? 19 A: I don't remember exactly where 20 everybody was standing. 21 Q: Okay. Do you remember how many 22 people were there? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. All right. And you'd already 25 described that you did not recall observing any incidents


1 with respect to the Military's departure; it proceeded in 2 a relatively orderly and calm fashion? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you recall observing any tension 5 of any kind? 6 A: I seem to remember there was -- there 7 was tension there. 8 Q: Can you describe what that tens -- 9 what you observed that led you to believe there was 10 tension? 11 A: No, I can't remember. 12 Q: And at that point your team leader 13 was Sergeant Korosec; is that correct? 14 A: Yes, that's correct. 15 Q: And would it have been him that 16 provided you with -- with orders and -- and information 17 about the situation? 18 A: That's -- that's quite possible it 19 was, yes. 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall either on July 21 29th or during the -- the period that -- that time period 22 being told of any -- any concerns about occurrences off 23 CFB Ipperwash, outside of CFB Ipperwash? 24 A: I can't remember specifics as to -- 25 far as what type of occurrences but I do know there had


1 been several incidents around the Military Base. 2 Q: Okay. And what did those incidents 3 involve? 4 A: Confrontations between First Nations 5 people and the military personnel. 6 Q: Okay. All right. And what about 7 outside of CFB Ipperwash and the surrounding community; 8 anything that would impact on your policing in the area? 9 A: I believe there had some reports of 10 break-ins in the area, vandalism. 11 Q: Okay. And did you know anything at 12 the time about the relationship between the people 13 occupying the Army Base and people living at Kettle and 14 Stony Point or... 15 A: I know there was, from police 16 information that I'd received, that there had been 17 disagreements amongst family members as to the legalities 18 of occupying the land as opposed to waiting for the 19 process. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. And is there anything else 21 that you can recall of significance on July 29th, 1995, 22 the day of your first attendance in the area? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You were also on duty on July 30th, 25 1995?


1 A: Yes, I was. 2 Q: Okay. And your notes from that -- 3 from that shift appear in Exhibit P-1262 on the second 4 page, beginning on the second page and going onto the 5 third; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, that's correct. 7 Q: And did anything of significance 8 happen on that day? 9 A: No. 10 Q: What were your duties in the area? 11 A: Just to attend the Pinery Provincial 12 Park meeting place for a meeting with the rest of the 13 team. 14 Q: Can you recall the content of that 15 meeting? What was discussed? 16 A: No. I don't remember. 17 Q: And it's not recorded in your notes? 18 A: No, it isn't. 19 Q: All right. And did you go on patrol 20 on July 30th, 1995? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. Turning now to July 30 -- July 23 31st, 1995, you were also on duty in the area there on 24 that day? 25 A: July 31st did you say?


1 Q: I'm sorry. Thank you. July 31st, 2 that's correct. 3 A: Okay. Yes. 4 Q: And if -- if I can turn you to Tab 5 5 of the Brief of Documents in front of you. For the 6 record, what appears there is Inquiry Document Number 7 2005590. 8 And I see, Sergeant Dougan, it appears to 9 be notes from a period encompassing July 31st, 1995 10 through August 31st, 1995; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Do these represent all of 13 your notebook entries, having reviewed your notebook, 14 relevant to the -- to your duties at or near CFB 15 Ipperwash? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And if I could have that 18 entered as the next exhibit. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-1263, Your Honour. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1263: Document Number 2005590. 22 Handwritten notebook entries 23 of Mike Dougan, July 31, 24 August 01,02, 07-11, 31 and 25 September 01, 1995; July 31,


1 September 01, 1995. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: Okay, returning then to July 31st, 5 what were your duties on that day? 6 A: I was on general patrol with ERT 7 members around the Ipperwash Camp. 8 Q: Okay. And I'm sorry, Sergeant 9 Dougan, if I could ask you to speak just a little bit 10 louder -- 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: -- just for the -- for the benefit of 13 reporter. 14 And when you say the area of Ipperwash 15 Camp, what area did that encompass? 16 A: That encompassed the Ipperwash 17 Provincial Park and the area surrounding the Military 18 Base. 19 Q: All right. So the roads? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And in general, what were you doing 22 while you were on patrol? 23 A: Just conducting normal vehicle 24 checks. 25 Q: Okay. Can you describe those


1 vehicles checks? 2 A: A normal vehicle check would consist 3 of stopping motor vehicle, checking the driver on our 4 CPIC system, ensuring that they're a licensed driver. 5 And normally I would ask the names of the occupants of 6 the vehicle. 7 Just any observations that I have observed 8 that I would note were unusual. 9 Q: What -- what was the purpose of these 10 vehicle Checks? 11 A: The vehicle checks -- there had been 12 an increase of break-ins in the area and we were advised 13 to conduct patrols, to have a police presence so that 14 people in the -- lived in the area felt comfortable and 15 to make observations of anything unusual, and to provide 16 calls for service, because calls for service had 17 increased in the area and the Forest Detachment wasn't 18 adequately staffed to deal with the increase. 19 Q: Okay. And were you also checking at 20 that point for weapons in vehicles? 21 A: That would be a normal -- yes, if we 22 saw weapons certainly we would deal with it. 23 Q: All right. And which vehicles were 24 you stopping? 25 A: Any vehicles.


1 Q: Any vehicles that you saw? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Were you stopping all vehicles? 4 A: I believe so, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And I take it that you were 6 performing these vehicle checks -- were you ordered to do 7 so or instructed to do so by your team leader or anyone 8 else? 9 A: Those were our instructions, yes. 10 Q: Okay. And on July 31st... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Just turning back to your notes, July 15 31st, 1995. Those are at the first two (2) pages of the 16 notes that we have at Tab 5. 17 I see -- see there that there also appears 18 to be a reference to you being in the Park. Would that 19 be Ipperwash Provincial Park? 20 A: That's correct, yes. 21 Q: Okay. And can you describe for us -- 22 that's noted at 23:00. Can you describe for us what -- 23 what you were doing in the Park? 24 A: Just on foot patrol. And the reason 25 that -- why I noted here it's Ipperwash Camp is that


1 growing up in the area, I used to camp there, so that's 2 what I called it. 3 Q: And what were you doing on foot 4 patrol in that -- in the Park or Camp area? 5 A: Just walking round with Constable 6 Parks, just showing a presence and being available if 7 there was any calls. 8 Q: Okay. Okay, and I understand you 9 also attended at the scene of a motor vehicle accident 10 later that evening, so that would have been early on the 11 morning of August 1st, 1995; is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And describe for us, if you 14 will, what -- what your duties were there or what you did 15 when you attended. 16 A: At 02:42 hours, I attended a motor 17 vehicle collision at the corner of Matheson Drive and 18 Army Camp Road which is a T-intersection. The motor 19 vehicle had been travelling at a high rate of speed down 20 Matheson Drive and went through the stop sign and into a 21 deep ditch. 22 When I arrived on the scene, there were 23 several occupants of the vehicle still in the vehicle, 24 there was four (4) feet of water in the ditch. Myself 25 and Constable Dellemonache waded into the water and


1 assisted with removing the occupants of the vehicle. 2 Q: All right. And I understand that 3 there was some fatalities as a result of that accident? 4 A: Yes. Two (2) of the three (3) 5 occupants were dead at the scene. 6 Q: And were there -- were there any 7 other people on scene, non-officers, civilians? 8 A: Yes, there was. The accident was 9 attracting attention from a lot of people in the area. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: And it was -- it was difficult to 12 assist with the investigation with a lot of people 13 wandering around. We did the best we could. There was 14 also a lot of people there that obviously were distraught 15 over the loss of -- of their friends or family members, 16 so we had to be cognizant of -- of that situation. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So during that time that we were 19 pulling people out of the ditch, we were allowing those 20 people -- they were on-hand to conduct ceremonies -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- with their deceased. 23 Q: Sorry, please continue. 24 A: And so we allowed that to -- that 25 situation to -- we respected their -- their rights to --


1 to deal with that issue. 2 Q: And just -- what did you observe in 3 terms of those -- what people were doing? 4 A: There was, I believe, some smudging 5 ceremonies -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: -- conducted. 8 Q: And you had no difficulty with 9 permitting that to occur? 10 A: No, I didn't, because we often have 11 situations where we have both people that are -- are in a 12 car accident and other people trying to deal with the 13 losses, so we have to -- it's our job to help them out 14 with that respect of things. 15 Q: Okay. And did you have any further 16 involvement beyond your assistance at the scene early 17 that morning, with the investigation or in dealing with - 18 - with that particular incident? 19 A: No, that was the extent of our 20 involvement. 21 Q: Turning back now to the information 22 that you'd received from other members of the OPP had you 23 received any information during this general time period 24 about the presence -- suspected presence of weapons in 25 the area?


1 A: We had received information from our 2 intelligence people regarding weapons on the Military 3 Base. 4 Q: Okay. And can you be -- can you 5 provide any more detail about the -- the nature of the 6 information that you were given? 7 A: Just that there had been automatic 8 gunfire heard in the Park by some of the residents in the 9 area -- 10 Q: Okay. And when you -- 11 A: -- and that -- 12 Q: -- say "Park" what do you mean? 13 A: I -- in the Military Base. 14 Q: The Army Base? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that was by residents in the 17 area? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And had you received any other 20 -- any information or did you have any information about 21 people attending in the area or attending at Camp 22 Ipperwash from other reserves? 23 A: There had also been information in 24 our briefings of people coming from outside the area, 25 from other areas to the Military Base and that caused a


1 great concern for the officers because we felt that some 2 of those people would agitate the situation and cause 3 more -- more serious problems. 4 Q: And were you aware at the time of the 5 practice amongst First Nations people of visiting from 6 community to community, perhaps with -- at a higher rate 7 of frequency than the members of the non-Aboriginal 8 community, or it being a -- a frequent practice at any 9 rate? 10 A: Yes, I was aware of it just from the 11 -- the time I spent working out of the Sombra Detachment. 12 Often you would stop people and they would be going to 13 different reserves to visit family, friends. It was 14 pretty common, yes. 15 Q: And did that knowledge and awareness, 16 first of all, did that have any impact on your assessment 17 of the concern about people visiting from other reserves? 18 A: I didn't see it a problem as far as 19 people going to visit. My concern was with certain 20 individuals that their sole purpose was to go to the Base 21 to agitate the situation. 22 Q: All right. And did you give any 23 direct information as to people having that specific 24 purpose? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. Where did you get that 2 information? 3 A: It would have been at briefings. 4 Q: Okay. Did other officers that you 5 were -- either on your team or had any dealings with 6 appear -- appear to be -- appear to you to be aware of 7 the practice of frequent visiting from community to 8 community in the First Nations communities? 9 A: I'm not aware of what the other 10 officers would know. 11 Q: Okay. Thank you. 12 Okay. And turning back... 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Just one (1) moment please. Just for 17 the record if I could turn you to the document at Tab 4 18 which is Inquiry Document Number 2003460. 19 Do you recognize that document, Sergeant 20 Dougan? 21 A: I recognize the -- this statement as 22 my handwriting, yes. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recall filling out this 24 or writing this -- these words? 25 A: Not offhand, no.


1 Q: Okay. And for the record the 2 document 2003460 is titled, Interview Report. 3 And, Sergeant Dougan, does it appear to 4 capture in a summary fashion your activities on this 5 particular callout from July 29th to July 31st, 1995? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And do you know why you would 8 have filled out this interview report in addition to your 9 notes? 10 A: Well -- 11 Q: The notes in your notebook? 12 A: It looks like it's just a statement 13 form, just a summary, for -- for my sergeant I believe. 14 Q: Okay. And if I could have this 15 entered as the next exhibit? 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-1264, Your Honour. 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1264: Document Number 2003460. 20 Handwritten Interview Report 21 of Make Dougan, July 29-31, 22 1995. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 25 Q: Turning now to Tab 7 of the brief of


1 documents in front of you. And if I could take you to 2 the -- your handwritten notes appear approximately two- 3 thirds (2/3's) of the way through that document. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: I'm sorry, I'm skipping ahead. 8 Sorry, we're still on Tab 5. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: All right. I see from your notes, 13 during that period, that appear at Tab 5 in Exhibit 14 number 1263, that you were on duty on August 1st and 2nd, 15 1995 as well? 16 A: Yes, I was. 17 Q: All right. And you were on patrol in 18 the area? 19 A: On the 1st of August -- 20 Q: No, I apologize. It appears you were 21 at Pinery Provincial Park on standby. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And on August 2nd, the same. So you 24 didn't leave Pinery during your shift that day? 25 A: Yes, that's correct.


1 Q: Okay. And then turning to August -- 2 your notes on August 7th. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I was on patrol -- 7 Q: I apologize. Okay. 8 A: -- on the 7th. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Okay. On August 7th. You've already 13 described, and just to correct the record on August 1st, 14 it was early in the morning of August 1st that you 15 attended at the scene of the motor vehicle accident; is 16 that correct? 17 A: That's correct, yes. 18 Q: Okay. Right, and on August 7th, I 19 see on the fourth page of that document, you were on 20 patrol. 21 A: Yes, I was. 22 Q: All right. Did anything of 23 significance happen on that day? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Similarly, on August 8th you were on


1 patrol in the area. You appear to be on patrol at the 2 Ipperwash camp ground with P/C Myers; is that correct? 3 A: That's correct, yes. 4 Q: And that was a foot patrol? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Nothing of significance happened on 7 that day? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And similarly on August 9th you 10 patrolled the area of Ipperwash Camp? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was there anything of 13 significance that occurred on that day? 14 A: Just a few vehicle stops I noted in 15 my notebook. 16 Q: And turning to the sixth page of that 17 document at Tab 5, I see on August 10th you were on duty 18 on standby at Ipperwash Camp, ERT detail, and you 19 patrolled the Ipperwash area starting at 12:31 with P/C 20 Myers. Do you -- have nothing noted there. 21 Can you recall anything of significance 22 happening on that day? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And similarly on August 11th, you 25 were on duty, Ipperwash camp, ERT detail, and have


1 nothing noted there other than going off-duty. 2 A: That's correct, yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And if I could turn you to the 7 document at Tab 6 of the brief of documents in front of 8 you, we have another interview report. It appears to 9 capture the period August 7th to August 10th, 1995, and 10 describe in summary fashion your activities and patrols 11 in the area. 12 A: Yes. And the -- that document is 13 dated the 11th of August, 1995. 14 Q: Okay. And I also note that on August 15 9th there is a description of you stopping a vehicle and 16 there are some names listed there and I'd ask that this 17 document be entered as an exhibit, and that the names 18 under the heading August 9th, be redacted from this 19 document. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-1265, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1265: Document Number 2000832. OPP 24 handwritten Interview Report 25 of Mike Dougan, August 11,


1 1995. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 4 Q: Okay. Do you recall filling out this 5 particular document? 6 A: Not offhand, no. 7 Q: All right, thank you. But you do 8 recognize that as your handwriting? 9 A: Yes, I do. Yeah. 10 Q: Okay. So from August 11th, 1995, 11 after that what was your next involvement with the 12 situation in the Ipperwash area? 13 A: The 31st of August, 1995. 14 Q: Okay. And your notes from that -- 15 that date appear at Tab 5 in the -- Exhibit 1263. It 16 will be the last two (2) pages of the document at that 17 tab; is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you describe for us if you 20 will, what you can recall about your attendance in the 21 area on August 31st, 1995? 22 A: I went on duty at 09:44 hours -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- for an ERT detail at Ipperwash 25 Provincial Park. Attended at Petrolia Detachment at


1 10:04 with Constable Dellemonache on route to Pinery 2 Provincial Park. 3 Arrived at Pinery Provincial Park at 10:51 4 hours and met with ERT members. Had a briefing with 5 Sergeant Korosec. And at 13:00 hours attended location 6 off of Jericho Road to set up the radio tower and also 7 set it up at another location on -- West of Ipperwash 8 park at the parking area. 9 We were testing out different locations 10 for radio communications. 11 Q: Okay. And just to take you back a 12 little bit. Prior to August 31st, 1995, did you have any 13 information or belief about a potential occupation of the 14 Park by the people -- by people occupying the Army Camp 15 Base? 16 A: I'm not sure exactly when I first 17 heard that there was going to be an occupation of the 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 19 Q: Do you recall whether it was 20 discussed at -- first of all, can you recall what you 21 were told at the briefings on August 31st? 22 A: No, I can't. 23 Q: Okay. At that point though did you 24 understand it to be a risk that the Park might be 25 occupied?


1 A: My understanding that it was going to 2 happen at the end of the camping season, that the 3 occupiers were going to take over the Park, that the 4 OPP's plan was to allow this to happen and to seek an 5 injunction in court at a later time to have them removed. 6 Q: Okay. And is it your belief that you 7 came by this information and understanding on August 8 31st? 9 A: I'm not sure if it was on August 10 31st. It was some time during that -- those days. 11 Q: By those days, you mean August 31st, 12 perhaps September 1st or September 2nd? 13 A: That's right, yes. It could have 14 been one of those briefings. 15 Q: Okay. And what did you understand 16 your purpose at that attendance to be on August 31st in 17 the area; the purpose of your attendance and other 18 members of the ERT? 19 A: The same as before; to maintain a 20 police presence, ensure that everyone felt safe, conduct 21 patrols, make observations. 22 Q: Okay. And you mentioned that you 23 were setting up a -- assisting with the setup of a radio 24 tower? 25 A: Yes. Our radio system, we had a


1 portable tower for the ERT team that could be set up and 2 taken down. It was fairly portable, so it allowed us 3 better communications in an area where the normal radio 4 system wasn't adequate to -- to handle. 5 Q: For the record that was the Victrix? 6 A: That's right, yes. 7 Q: V-I-C-T-R-I-X; is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And on August 31st, you 10 mentioned you were -- you were assessing suitable 11 locations -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- for the set up of that radio 14 tower? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you identify a suitable 17 location? 18 A: Yes. At the parking area on 19 Ipperwash Park Road. 20 Q: Can you be a little bit more specific 21 about the -- the location? 22 A: It would be -- there's a parking area 23 on East Parkway Drive and it would be just west of 24 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 25 Q: All right. Is it the same parking


1 lot where -- on -- later that week the Tactical 2 Operations Centre was set up? 3 A: That's right, yes. 4 Q: So that was -- other witness have 5 described it as an MNR parking -- or Ministry of Natural 6 Resources parking lot? 7 A: Yes, that'd be the location. 8 Q: And why was that identified at the 9 time -- first of all, was there any other equipment set 10 up on August 31st in that parking lot? 11 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. 12 Q: Why was that identified as -- as a 13 suitable location for your radio tower? 14 A: We did some testing with our radio 15 communications and that seemed to be a good spot. 16 Q: Okay. And was it a good spot -- a 17 good spot for detecting -- picking up radio transmissions 18 from members of your team in which locations? 19 A: It was just a good central location 20 for in and around the -- the Military Base so when 21 officers were on patrol -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- it was good. 24 Q: And at that point were you assessing 25 a good location in relation to transmissions coming from


1 the area of the Park? 2 A: Yes. Yes. 3 Q: So on August 31st was there anything 4 other than your activities that you've already described? 5 Did anything else of significance occur? 6 A: No. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And you were also on duty on 11 September 1st, 1995; is that correct? 12 A: Yes, I was. 13 Q: All right. And now I'm going to take 14 you to Tab 7 of your brief of documents. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And you'll see that your handwritten 19 notes appear partway through that document, it's 2003459. 20 Those are your handwritten notes. I'm looking at your 21 officer's notebook entries first of all. We will return 22 to the document that's at the first part of that tab but 23 we'll do so later. 24 Beginning with -- the number at the bottom 25 of the page, it's 0032914, in very small numbers at the


1 very bottom; have you identified that page? 2 A: Yes, those are photocopies of my 3 notebook entries. 4 Q: And the notebook entries included in 5 this document appear to capture notebook entries from 6 September 1995 through to September 8th, 1995; is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And if you can confirm for me, if you 10 will, Sergeant Dougan, that these are your entire -- all 11 of your notebook entries during that period? 12 A: Yes, they are. 13 Q: So they correspond with what is in 14 your notebook, which you have in front of you as well? 15 A: That's right, yes. 16 Q: If I could have the portion of 17 Inquiry Document Number 2003459 beginning with page 18 number 0032914 which is Sergeant Dougan's officer's notes 19 from September 1st to September 8th, 1995, entered as the 20 next exhibit? 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-1266, Your Honour. 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1266: Document Number 2003459. OPP 25 handwritten notebook entries


1 of Constable Mike Dougan, 2 August 31 to September 08, 3 1995; August 31, 1995 to 4 September 08, 1995. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 7 Q: So I see that on September -- based 8 on your notes, September 1st, 1995, which appears at page 9 42 of your notes there -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- you were on patrol in the 12 Ipperwash area with Constable Gransden? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And -- and I see at 21:24 you checked 15 out a possible disturbance around the MNR maintenance 16 building at Ipperwash Provincial Park. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A: Yes, there was a report of someone 19 hiding in the bushes in and around the MNR building. 20 Q: All right. And what happened when 21 you -- you attended on the scene there? 22 A: Yeah, we -- we patrolled the area. 23 We didn't find anyone. 24 Q: Okay. Did anything else of -- did 25 you observe anything else or do anything else of


1 significance on September 1st, 1995? 2 A: Just conducted regular patrols; 3 stopped motor vehicles. I did note at 22:31 hours while 4 patrolling the Ipperwash Provincial Park observed a brown 5 pickup in the dunes east of Matheson Drive. Several 6 Natives were around the vehicle drinking and yelling. I 7 did observe this also through night vision glasses from 8 Constable Japp. 9 We were standing at the fence by the 10 Provincial Park -- on the Provincial Park side. 11 Q: And approximately how far were you 12 from -- from the people on the other side that you've 13 described? 14 A: Far enough away that I couldn't 15 identify who they were. 16 Q: You couldn't identify who they were? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You did observe people drinking 19 directly, though? 20 A: I -- yes. 21 Q: Okay, and what happened next? 22 A: Another vehicle came along; a tan 23 coloured, large car, similar to a -- like a Lincoln, with 24 "OPP Who" painted on the doors. 25 Both vehicles then left.


1 Q: Okay. And had you ever seen that car 2 before? 3 A: I'm not sure if that was the first -- 4 Q: The OPP Who car? 5 A: -- time or... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And did you do anything as a result 10 of your observations? 11 A: No. We continued on patrol at 00:12 12 hours -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- and then went off duty at 03:00. 15 Q: Do you recall if you passed 16 information about what you'd observed on to any other 17 members or your superior officers? 18 A: I'm sure the information was passed 19 on. I -- I don't recall myself. 20 Q: Okay. Turning now to September -- I 21 see from your -- your notebook entry, it appears you went 22 off duty at 03:00 hours; is that correct? 23 A: Yes, it is. 24 Q: Turning now to September 2nd, 1995. 25 It appears from your notebooks that went on duty at 11:00


1 hours and you were patrolling the area of the Provincial 2 Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And what -- describe for us, 5 if you will, what your recollections are of that 6 particular day and your activities. 7 A: Yes, at 12:51 hours, while on patrol, 8 I observed a motor vehicle on Matheson Drive down by the 9 beach. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Two (2) male Natives were standing 12 around the vehicle drinking beer in the -- out in the 13 open, with people sunbathing and campers around. We 14 approached them to tell them to put their beer away and 15 one of the male Natives, who I learned later was Dudley 16 George, began yelling at us to get off his -- off his 17 land; telling us if we don't leave, that several people 18 would be -- would come to forcibly remove us. 19 Several vehicles did show up at which time 20 we decided to leave the scene to prevent a -- to prevent 21 an escalation of the incident. 22 Q: Okay, and regarding your decision to 23 leave, but first of all, who were you with -- you were 24 with another officer at that point? 25 A: I was, but I don't have it noted who


1 I was with. 2 Q: Okay. We've heard from Constable 3 Mike Bran -- Mark Gransden who testified last week on 4 March 30th that he was also in attendance that day. 5 Does that refresh -- 6 A: It's quite possible, because we were 7 partnered up the night before, so. 8 Q: Okay. And with respect to the 9 situation that you were dealing with there, you said that 10 you left so as not to escalate the situation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: What could you have done? What other 13 avenues were open to you as a police officer to deal with 14 that situation? 15 A: Well, when we arrived on the scene 16 there, I -- and as we approached the two (2) male 17 Natives, they began yelling and screaming at us, so we 18 could have arrested them for causing a disturbance. They 19 were also drinking out in public; could have seized their 20 alcohol and charged them for those offences as well under 21 the Liquor Licence Act. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: But decided not to in the situation 24 because more people were arriving on the scene. It was 25 obviously creating a scene amongst the campers because


1 they were watching as well. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And rather than arrest them and 4 charge them and possibly escalate the situation, we 5 decided to leave. 6 Q: All right. And I'm going to -- we 7 also showed Officer Gransden a number of photographs that 8 are Exhibit P-135; if that could be provided to the 9 Witness, the hard copy. 10 And we'll also be projecting that up on 11 the screen in a moment. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now if you turn through Exhibit P- 16 135, partway through the document there are a number of 17 photographs, and if I could take you to the seventh 18 photograph in that series. And we should tell you we 19 will try and get it up on the screen for the Commissioner 20 as well as for other counsel. 21 A moment's indulgence, Commissioner, we 22 have some technical problems. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Regrettably, Commissioner, I think it 2 is important that we have these photos up on the screen 3 so people can know what we're talking about. Oh, I see, 4 Mr. Millar is here to assist us. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: You might take this time, Sergeant 9 Dougan, to just have a look at the photos in front of 10 you. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: If you can have a look at that 15 photograph that's up on the screen there, I note that 16 it's the sixth on -- the sixth page of eleven according 17 to the document there, but it's the seventh photograph in 18 the series. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: And tell us -- first of all, before 21 today had you seen these photographs? 22 A: No, I haven't. 23 Q: I can advise that they were produced 24 to the Commission and taken by a civilian who was in the 25 area.


1 First of all, do you recognize the scene 2 that we see there? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: And can you describe what you see 5 there? 6 A: Okay. The -- the car in the scene 7 here is Dudley George's car. It has on the -- on the 8 doors, "OPP Who". The picture would be taken from the 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park side -- 10 Q: Sorry, Sergeant Dougan, there's also 11 a laser pointer right in front of you and it would be 12 helpful if you could point out -- just... 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: There you go. 15 A: Okay. This here would be the 16 Ipperwash Provincial Park side. 17 Q: The area in the foreground in the 18 picture? 19 A: Right. When you get past these 20 cement blocks, you're now onto the Matheson Drive. And 21 then there's some cement blocks along the back here 22 indicating the Military Base side. 23 So the -- the car was stuck in the sand on 24 Matheson Drive, the -- the end of Matheson Drive. And as 25 you can see, there's several people from the campsites


1 watching -- 2 Q: All right. 3 A: -- while we're dealing with the -- 4 the two (2) male Natives by the car. 5 Q: Okay. And can you identify who the 6 people you see there in the area of the car are for us? 7 A: The only one that I can -- I can say 8 for sure would be -- that would be Dudley George there. 9 Q: For the record he's indicating the 10 man wearing a -- a lighter coloured t-shirt standing 11 beside the car in that photo -- or behind the car in that 12 photograph. 13 Okay. And do you recognize -- I know the 14 photo is rela -- fairly grainy and taken at a distance, 15 do you recognize yourself in that photo? 16 A: It -- it's hard to tell. I'm 17 thinking that that's myself there, but it's kind of hard 18 to see -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- in the picture. 21 Q: And for the record you're indicating 22 the uniformed officer on the right. 23 And who are the other people that you see? 24 A: I really can't tell for sure who the 25 other people are.


1 Q: Do you recall -- all right. Perhaps 2 if we could just go to the next photograph. And what do 3 you see there? 4 A: Myself standing in front of the car. 5 Q: That's the uniformed officer standing 6 on the right-hand side. 7 A: And Dudley George. 8 Q: Standing behind the car. 9 A: Mark Gransden. 10 Q: Standing to Officer Dougan's left. 11 A: And I don't know who this individual 12 is. 13 Q: All right. Is that a police officer? 14 A: This one here? No -- 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: -- that was one (1) of the other 17 Native persons on the scene. 18 Q: All right. And did you at any point 19 learn who that person was? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And turning now to the next 22 photograph, the third photograph, or ninth of the series. 23 What do you see there? 24 A: It looks like everybody's walked away 25 from the vehicle, but I -- I can't tell really who is --


1 who is who from the picture. 2 Q: All right. And in relation to the 3 conversation that you described with Dudley George, where 4 you described him yelling, can you recall whether that 5 occurred when you were standing around the vehicle in the 6 -- in the first two (2) para -- two (2) pictures? 7 A: Yes. It would -- it would have been 8 when we first approached and he was standing around the 9 vehicle that -- that he was yelling at us. 10 Q: Okay. And at this point you're all 11 walking away from the vehicle you'd -- you'd mentioned? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Do you recall that? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: All right. And what was happening 16 there? 17 A: Dudley was continuing to yell at us. 18 Q: And perhaps if we could proceed to 19 the next picture. Can you describe or recall what -- 20 what you see happening there? 21 A: This is when -- as I was saying 22 before that several more people arrived from the Military 23 Base side. 24 Q: Did your recognize or know any of the 25 people who arrived?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And so those are the people 3 that you see in the vehicles that you see pictured there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And turning now to the next 6 photograph, which I believe is the eleventh photograph in 7 the series. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Do you recall what we see depicted in 12 this photograph? 13 A: I believe that is probably our police 14 car there. 15 Q: All right. And where was it parked? 16 A: On Matheson Drive. It would be 17 directly south of the scene where the -- where Dudley's 18 car was. 19 Q: Okay. So Dudley's car was between 20 your cruiser and the lake? 21 A: That's right, yes. 22 Q: Okay. And who were the people in the 23 photo? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: I recognize Dudley but I don't -- I 2 don't recognize anyone else in that photo. 3 Q: Okay. And for the record there -- 4 there appear to be four (4) people sit -- or standing on 5 the left-hand side of the photograph. 6 And what is happening during -- in that 7 picture? 8 A: We're back in our police car and 9 we're leaving. 10 Q: All right. And what are the people 11 that -- that you see in the photograph doing? 12 A: I'm not sure at this point what 13 they're doing. They're -- they're obviously standing 14 there, but I don't know what they're saying. I can't 15 remember. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: All right, moving on now. Did you do 21 anything as a result of -- well, you'd already -- already 22 mentioned that you'd left the scene in order to avoid an 23 escalation of circumstances. 24 Moving now to September -- and did 25 anything else of significance happen on September 2nd,


1 1995? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did you pass your observations 4 and information about the incident that you've described 5 on to anyone else? 6 A: Yes. At 13:20 hours, I met with 7 Sergeant Korosec and advised him of the situation. 8 Q: And did he tell you to do anything as 9 a result of the information that you gave him? 10 A: Not that I remember, no. 11 Q: Moving now to September 3rd, 1995. I 12 see that you were on duty? 13 A: Yes, at 22:00 hours went on duty and 14 patrol with Constable Gransden in and around Ipperwash 15 Provincial Park. 16 Q: Okay. And I see there that you have 17 a vehicle stop noted, beginning at 00:50 hours. 18 A: That's correct, yes. 19 Q: Okay. I see there's a name noted 20 there. If we could have that redacted from the exhibit 21 copy of Sergeant Dougan's notes and similarly with 22 respect to the vehicle stop that occurs at 1:09 you have 23 noted there. 24 A: Yes, that's correct. 25 Q: Okay. Are there anything in


1 significance in relation to either -- either of those 2 vehicle stops that, in your view, would be relevant to 3 the situation that was occurring at -- in the Ipperwash 4 area, at Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay, and can you describe for us 7 what you did for the remainder of that shift? 8 A: We continued our patrols. I did note 9 a bonfire down at the boat ramp on the Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park at about 01:49 hours. 11 Q: Okay. And I see noted in your notes 12 it says, "Bonfire on the beach at Matheson Drive"; is 13 that correct? 14 A: That's correct, yes. 15 Q: All right. So, was that within the 16 Park or -- or on Matheson Drive? 17 A: That was on Matheson Drive. 18 Q: Okay. And did you do anything as a 19 result of that observation? 20 A: No. 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay, we're coming 22 now to September 4th. 23 I'm wondering, Commissioner, would you 24 like me to proceed at this point or shall we take a break 25 now?


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I suppose 2 this as good a time as any to take a break. Let's take a 3 break now. 4 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, 5 Commissioner. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 11:17 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 11:35 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Welcome back, 15 Commissioner, Sergeant Dougan. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 19 Q: Turning back -- we were at September 20 4th, before the break. And I see your notes are included 21 in -- from September 4th, are included in the document 22 that is at Tab 7 and has been marked as Exhibit 1266 in 23 these proceedings. Is that correct? Starting at page 24 46? 25 A: Yes, that's correct.


1 Q: All right. So what were you doing on 2 -- on September 4th, 1995? 3 A: I started on duty at 15:00 hours with 4 Constable Gransden, and at 16:01 was on Army Camp Road at 5 Gratton Drive. 6 Q: Just -- just to stop you for a 7 moment, do you recall what uniform you were wearing on 8 that particular day? 9 A: I believe it was just regular 10 uniform. 11 Q: All right. Thank you. And that 12 would be a blue uniform? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Thank you. Please continue. 15 A: At 16:07 hours I was advised to 16 assist Constable Mars and Jacklin at Matheson Drive for 17 the disturbance. We arrived at 16:08 and observed a dark 18 coloured Trans Am where several Natives were around 19 cruisers arguing with the officers at the scene. 20 Q: Did you know any of the -- the people 21 that you saw there? 22 A: Yeah. Sergeant Korosec was speaking 23 with Judas George, I guess, which is Roderick George. 24 Constable Jacklin was speaking with Stewart George. And 25 the gist of the -- the argument amongst the officers and


1 the Natives on the scene was a dispute over the right to 2 Matheson Drive. 3 Q: All right. And so the individuals 4 you've described, Roderick George and Stewart George, 5 were claiming that First Nations owned Matheson Drive? 6 A: That's correct, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And could you overhear that 8 conversation directly? 9 A: There was a lot of yelling going on 10 so I really wasn't able to understand one particular 11 conversation. 12 Q: Okay. And what else did you see 13 going on? 14 A: There didn't seem to be a whole lot 15 of cooperation or -- at this time so we left at 16:43. 16 Q: Okay. And prior to that departure, 17 did you see any of the Messrs. George that you approached 18 the trunk of the vehicle you've described? Or go into 19 the trunk of the vehicle you've described? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 Q: Okay. And did you observe any 22 weapons present? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Other than those that the officers 25 had?


1 A: I didn't see any weapons, no. 2 Q: Okay. And you've described yelling 3 and the lack of cooperation. Was that a stressful point 4 of contact for you, personally, or did you have any 5 concerns for your safety? 6 A: No. Not that time, no. 7 Q: And was -- did you or any of the 8 officers you spoke to -- you spoke to -- first of all 9 there was Sergeant Korosec and you were on duty with...? 10 A: Constable Gransden. 11 Q: Right. Did any of the other officers 12 express any concern for -- for their own safety or the 13 safety of officers? 14 A: Not that I can remember. 15 Q: Okay. So you left the beach area, 16 you said at approximately 4:43 p.m.? 17 A: That's correct, yes. 18 Q: And where were Stewart and Robert 19 George at that point? 20 A: Everyone kind of left at the same 21 time. 22 Q: All right. And did you do anything 23 else as a result of that incident by way of follow-up or? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And what's the next event of


1 significance that occurred that day? 2 A: At 17:52 hours I attended Army Camp 3 Road at Matheson Drive and observed Natives locking the 4 gate to Matheson Drive. Then I observed Natives cutting 5 down trees and felling them across the road. 6 Q: Across Matheson Drive? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And did you -- where were you 9 standing at that point? Or where were you at that point? 10 A: I would have been at Army Camp Road 11 at that time. 12 Q: All right. And could you -- did you 13 recognize any of the people involved? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. And please continue. 16 A: "We remained there and observed 17 several vehicles travelling up and down 18 the gravel road parallel to Army Camp 19 Road, viewed them through binoculars 20 and took down several licence plates. 21 At 19:30 hours patrolled through 22 Ipperwash Park and stood by the east 23 end while Sergeant Korosec spoke with 24 Bert Manning." 25 Q: Okay. Where was Sergeant Korosec and


1 where was Mr. Manning? 2 A: They were up closer to the -- to the 3 east gate. 4 Q: And could you hear what they were 5 saying? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: "Glenn George arrived and began 9 shouting. The gate locks were cut and 10 the Natives took over the Park." 11 Q: Okay. Just to take you back a bit, 12 what was Glenn George shouting, if you can recall, and 13 where was he? 14 A: I don't -- I couldn't hear what he 15 was shouting because we were a ways back from -- from 16 where he was; he was standing at the -- the gate to the 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 18 Q: Which gate was that? 19 A: The east gate. 20 Q: Thank you. Okay. And then you said 21 the -- the gate was -- the locks on the gate were cut? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you see who did that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And how many people were there? Were


1 there other people in the area -- 2 A: About -- 3 Q: -- other than Glenn George and you've 4 described Bert Manning? Were there other First Nations 5 people in the area? 6 A: When they cut the locks, yeah, there 7 was about eight (8) to ten (10) vehicles came into the 8 Park. I'm not sure exactly how many Native persons were 9 in attendance. 10 Q: Okay. At that point were there any - 11 - any campers left in the Park? 12 A: The majority of the campers had gone 13 home. There may have been some people using the day use 14 areas that were left, and that's when we received 15 instructions from Sergeant Korosec to escort those people 16 from Ipperwash Provincial Park. 17 Q: Okay. So you -- you participated in 18 that? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: Do you remember communicating with 21 any of the campers or speaking to them, or what 22 conversations did you have with the campers, if you can 23 recall? 24 A: Just advising them that they had to 25 leave the Park.


1 Q: Okay. And did you tell them why they 2 had to leave the Park? 3 A: I -- I don't remember if we told 4 them. 5 Q: Okay. And what was your 6 understanding at that point about -- you understood, you 7 had mentioned prior to this that a Park occupation was 8 possible and that plans were being made to deal with it; 9 is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What was your understanding at this 12 point about what would happen next to deal with the Park 13 and the -- and its occupation? 14 A: Our instructions were to main -- to 15 remain in the Park, just to provide a police presence and 16 wait for the courts to deal with the matter. 17 Q: Okay. And while you were in the 18 Park, for example when you were escorting day users from 19 the Park, did you have any concerns about your safety or 20 the safety of any of your fellow officers? 21 A: No, not at this time, no. 22 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 23 A: I remained at the -- the front gate 24 with Sergeant Korosec and other ERT team members. At 25 21:20 hours, while at the front gate, several of the --


1 the Natives that were occupying Ipperwash Provincial Park 2 began throwing phosphorous flares at ERT members. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Three (3) or four (4) were thrown and 5 the last one just missing some of the members of the ERT 6 team. 7 Q: Okay. Were any flares thrown at you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: How far were you standing from that 10 activity, from where the flares landed, first of all? 11 A: It was hard to tell because it was 12 getting dark at this time. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: So visibility was becoming poor. 15 Roderick George came over towards us yelling to get off 16 their land. At this time Roderick was -- was yelling, he 17 was not being rational, wasn't listening to Sergeant 18 Korosec who was trying to talk to him in -- in a calm 19 manner to try and ease the situation. 20 At one point, Roderick became upset and 21 slammed a stick through the back window of the cruiser. 22 Q: And what happened next? 23 A: We decided to leave at this point 24 because the situation was escalating. 25 Q: Approximately how many officers were


1 in the Park at that point? 2 A: I'm not sure of an exact number that 3 were at -- at the gate with us. 4 Q: Were there significantly fewer 5 officers than there were other people in the Park? 6 A: It appeared to be, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And at that point, in terms of 8 your positioning, were you -- were officers and non- 9 police officers, essentially intermingled? 10 A: Yeah -- 11 Q: Or were all the officers in one (1) 12 area and -- and the non-officers in other areas? 13 A: The officers were all, like, kind of 14 standing in -- in one (1) area. I'm not sure exactly 15 where the -- the Native people were standing. 16 But it was becoming a great -- a great 17 concern for us, for our own personal safety, I know for 18 myself with flares being thrown at us, and the yelling 19 and screaming and the stick going through the back window 20 of the car. 21 Q: Okay. And you mentioned earlier, you 22 said, "We decided to leave." Did you actually receive 23 any instructions from Sergeant Korosec or anyone else 24 that you were to leave? 25 A: Yes. We would have waited for


1 Sergeant Korosec, as our team leader, to advise us of 2 next instructions. 3 Q: Okay. So you left the Park on his 4 instruction? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And what, if any, 7 conversations can you recall having with other officers, 8 once you left the Park, about what had just occurred? 9 A: I -- I don't remember what the 10 conversations were. 11 Q: All right. And just a quick question 12 about your notes on that day. I see from pages 51 13 through 55 of Exhibit P-1266, in your notebook entries. 14 The entry on page 51 starts at 19:29 hours 15 and then it runs continuously, without margin times 16 noted, through to page 55, which appears to be sometime 17 the following day. 18 Can you comment, did you make these note 19 entries all at the same time, if you can recall? 20 A: They would -- I'm not sure exactly, 21 but it would have been shortly after the events. 22 Q: All right. So your description of 23 the -- the events after 19:29 hours would have been made 24 shortly after 7:30 that night? 25 A: Which notes are you talking about


1 now? 2 Q: Okay. I'm talking about -- if you 3 see from pages 51 through 55. 4 A: Right. Yeah, it would have been some 5 time after -- after the time. 6 Q: Okay. But prior to the end of your 7 shift? 8 A: That's right, yes. 9 Q: Okay. So you were making notes 10 contemporaneously as you went along on that evening? 11 A: No. 12 Q: When were you -- when did you make 13 these notes? 14 A: Oh, the notes would have been made -- 15 Q: Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm 16 referring to the wrong page, page reference, pardon me. 17 A: Okay. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Okay. Please disregard my -- my 22 earlier questions. I was referring to the wrong pages. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Okay. Okay. And so where did you go 25 on leaving the Park?


1 A: At some point after leaving the Park, 2 several ERT members and myself attended the front gate of 3 the Ipperwash Provincial Park and stood by while they 4 served the eviction notice on the occupiers. 5 Q: Okay. And prior to that, what were 6 you -- what were you told or what discussions did you 7 have about what was going to happen there? 8 A: The -- the plan was to issue them an 9 eviction notice and then wait for the Court process to 10 take place. 11 Q: Okay. And what was your role in 12 attending there? 13 A: Just to provide back up in case there 14 was any situation that we needed to deal with; provide 15 cover for the officers serving the notice. 16 Q: Okay. And what did you do in 17 fulfilment of that -- that duty or role? 18 A: Just remained in the bushes along the 19 entrance to the Park. 20 Q: How far were you from -- from the 21 entrance to the Park or from the -- the people who were 22 trying to -- first of all, we understand it was Les 23 Kobayashi and Constable Vince George who attended -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- and attempted to serve?


1 A: That's correct, yes. 2 Q: How far were you from -- from those 3 individuals as they attempted to serve that notice? 4 A: It was really tough to -- to 5 determine a distance because it was very dark, there was 6 no lighting in that area. So I couldn't really tell you 7 what the distance was. 8 Q: Okay. And could you -- could you 9 hear the conversations they were having? 10 A: I could hear there was conversations 11 but they weren't audible. 12 Q: All right. And what did you observe? 13 A: Just that it -- a notice was -- was 14 to be served, I didn't really observe anything out of the 15 ordinary. 16 Q: Okay. And were you aware as to 17 whether they were actually able to serve that notice? 18 A: I'm not sure. 19 Q: Okay. That's fine, Sergeant Dougan. 20 Okay. And what did you do after that? 21 A: At 01:25 hours there was a briefing 22 in a garage with Detective Sergeant Wright and Inspector 23 Carson. As well there was District Two ERT members in 24 attendance as well. 25 Q: Okay. And can you recall what --


1 what the content of that particular briefing was; what 2 you were told? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Can you recall who provided the 5 briefing? 6 A: Who provided the briefing? 7 Q: Yes. Who gave the briefing to you? 8 A: Detective Sergeant Wright. 9 Q: Okay. And any other officers? 10 A: That gave the briefing? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: I'm not sure. 13 Q: Okay. And if I could turn you, 14 Sergeant Dougan, to -- there's a loose document that 15 should be in front of you on the desk. I can tell you -- 16 or inside your binder there tucked in. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: It's scribe notes, typed scribe 19 notes. I can tell you that these have been identified as 20 the scribe notes from early in the morning of September 21 5th, 1995. They're Inquiry Document Number 1002419, 22 Exhibit P-426. 23 Do you see page 14 of that particular 24 document in front of you? 25 A: Yes, I do.


1 Q: Okay. And you'll see described there 2 as you've indica -- consistent with what you've indicated 3 at 01:27 hours: 4 "Mark Wright briefing one and two ERT 5 in presence of John Carson." 6 Can you recall John Carson being present? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: The scribe notes have noted: 9 "JOHN CARSON: Be careful, media will 10 be everywhere. A lot like situation in 11 BC." 12 Can you recall John Carson having reviewed 13 this, John Carson cautioning officers to be careful 14 because the media would be everywhere? 15 A: I don't recall that exactly but 16 that's quite possible. 17 Q: And do you recall any comparisons 18 that evening, or at any other time, to the situation that 19 was occurring, to any situations happening in British 20 Columbia? 21 A: Not off hand, no. 22 Q: All right. Were you aware at that 23 time of the situation in Gustafsen Lake? 24 A: I seem to vaguely remember there was 25 a situation in BC, I can't remember the details.


1 Q: All right. And just to continue: 2 "JOHN CARSON: On hours off be careful 3 of your safety, don't speak about this 4 anywhere, coffee shop, et cetera. A 5 lot of planning into this. 6 Safety is important, rather than have 7 two (2) -- ten (10) guys too many than 8 one (1) not enough -- or rather have 9 ten (10) guys too many than one (1) not 10 enough. No big deal with damaged 11 vehicle. If you get caught in jackpot 12 I'd rather have one (1) bent metal than 13 you injured, and drive the Crown 14 Victoria through the fence." 15 Do you recall Carson saying any of what 16 I've read out loud to you or words to that affect -- 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: -- understanding that these scribe 19 notes are somewhat cryptic? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Just to continue, at 01:34 hours it's 22 got indicated -- or the scribe has indicated: 23 "MARK WRIGHT: We need structured chain 24 of command. 25 JOHN CARSON: Forest will be only a


1 command office." 2 Do you recall Officer Wright emphasizing 3 the need for a structured chain of command in dealing 4 with this incident? 5 A: No, I don't. 6 Q: Okay. And: 7 "JOHN CARSON: Forest will be only a 8 command office. We want to do this 9 right, everyone from here to Federal 10 people." 11 That's the second indication in those 12 scribed notes of John Carson emphasizing the need to do 13 things properly and -- and referencing the -- the 14 planning that had gone into this. 15 Do you recall any discussion that evening 16 to that affect? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: Mark Wright -- and just to continue. 19 "MARK WRIGHT: I'm not telling what to 20 carry or not to carry re. firearm, long 21 guns; use common sense. That -- that 22 tactical part is Stan Korosec's call." 23 First of all, as an ERT member are you 24 normally provided instructions, with respect to what 25 weapons you would be carrying with you, from any superior


1 officers? 2 A: It would be a standard set of 3 operational policies as far as what we carry. 4 Q: Okay. And what are those policies? 5 A: That we -- during ERT calls we carry 6 both our sidearm and our long gun or mini Ruger. 7 Q: Okay. And were you carrying both 8 that evening, or throughout this operation? 9 A: I would have had my sidearm with me; 10 the long gun probably would have been in the car. 11 Q: All right. And so it wouldn't be out 12 of the ordinary for a superior officer to -- to leave it 13 to your discretion whether to have your long gun with you 14 at any point? 15 A: That's possible, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And there's an indication 17 there that the tactical part would be left to Stan 18 Korosec. Is that consistent with, first of all, with 19 your experience with ERT team leaders, that tactical 20 issues were left to the team leaders? 21 A: Yes, we take our orders from Stan. 22 Q: Okay. And then just continuing on 23 page 15 at 01:40 hours: 24 "St. John explain option of meals being 25 provided. Paul Herding driver.


1 Introduced P/C Parks to show him the 2 location." 3 Do you recall any discussion of the role 4 of St. John Ambulance that night or the services they 5 might be providing? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: And then at 01:48 hours: 8 "Return to briefing of Stan Korosec. 9 JOHN CARSON: We stop everyone to ID. 10 We can't stop press." 11 I take that to be in reference to 12 instructions to officers with respect to checkpoints, 13 vehicle checkpoints. Do you -- do you recall receiving a 14 briefing that night with respect to the operation of 15 checkpoints at roadblocks? 16 A: My understanding from the checkpoints 17 was to stop everything that came through the checkpoints 18 and note driver and occupant identities on our log 19 sheets. 20 Q: Okay. And do you recall any -- any 21 discussions about how to deal with the press that evening 22 at checkpoints? 23 A: I do believe that we weren't to talk 24 to the press, that there would be officers who would deal 25 with the press at the Command Post.


1 Q: Okay. And was it your impression 2 that you would be letting people through any checkpoints 3 or turning them away at that point? 4 A: My understanding is that we were to 5 let people through. 6 Q: Okay. All right. Can you recall 7 anything else from that briefing or your attendance at 8 the Command Post? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. All right. And what did you 11 do next? 12 A: We, after the briefing, went to the 13 MNR parking lot to set up the Victrix and the TOC unit. 14 Officers that were in attendance with me were Constable 15 Parks, Dellemonache, Japp, Whelan, Gransden, and Jacklin. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: We remained at that site until we 18 were relieved by Districts 3 and 6 ERT members. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And returned to Forest Detachment at 21 8:25. 22 Q: All right. And so the portable tower 23 that you had been using, you described setting up in that 24 location earlier, you hadn't left it there? 25 A: No.


1 Q: Okay. You brought it back. What 2 else was going on in that parking lot that night? 3 A: I don't remember. 4 Q: Okay. You were next -- I understand 5 you went off duty on the morning of September 5th -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- at 8:25 a.m.? 8 A: At 10:00 hours. 9 Q: Oh, sorry, 10:00 a.m. And after 10 going to Forest for a debriefing. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you have any recollection of 13 attending at the Forest Detachment that morning? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Beyond what's noted in your notes? 16 A: Yes, that's correct. 17 Q: You returned to duty at 6:00 p.m.; is 18 that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And attended at the Forest Detachment 21 for a briefing? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Do you recall what the substance of 24 that briefing entailed? 25 A: Just our instructions to conduct


1 checkpoints, and there were identified locations for each 2 checkpoint. 3 Q: And you were assigned, I understand, 4 with Constable Gransden to attend at -- to man Checkpoint 5 'A'; is that correct? 6 A: Yes, that's correct. 7 Q: Where was that located? 8 A: Checkpoint 'A' was on East Parkway 9 Drive. It would just be -- be west of Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park. 11 Q: Okay. And how far was it from the 12 Park? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I'm not sure of an exact distance. 17 Q: Okay. All right. And we do have a 18 map, an aerial, overview that we can put up on the screen 19 for you with -- in order that you can identify where that 20 checkpoint is, and I'd ask -- Ms. Vella is my -- is 21 assisting me in this -- this morning. She's just pulling 22 it up. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: A moment's 2 indulgence, Commissioner, we're just getting it up on the 3 screen. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And I do see Mr. 8 Millar approaching to assist us. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Oh, there we go, 13 thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 16 Q: If you could take a moment to orient 17 yourself with that map. Or it's not a map, I'm sorry. 18 It's an aerial photograph of the area. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You'll see, in the upper right hand 23 corner, it's got noted, "Ipperwash Provincial Park, Army 24 Camp Road". 25 Do you see that --


1 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: -- Sergeant Dougan? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And if you could point out for 5 us where you were sent on the evening of September 5th to 6 staff Checkpoint 'A'. 7 A: Well, my understanding is it would be 8 right around here was where our Checkpoint 'A' was. 9 Q: Okay. And for the record, he's 10 indicated where we have marked, "Checkpoint A-1" and 11 this, also for the record, been entered as Exhibit P- 12 437B. 13 All Right. And what did you understand -- 14 so you were east or -- I'm sorry, west on Parkway Drive 15 there, west of the Park? 16 A: That's right, yes. 17 Q: Or towards Kettle Point at any rate. 18 Okay, could you observe the Park directly from Checkpoint 19 A-1? 20 A: No. We were far enough down the road 21 you couldn't see the entrance. 22 Q: Where were you in relation to the MNR 23 parking lot? 24 A: Hmm. 25 Q: It appears from the photo that you


1 were some distance away. 2 A: Yeah, I'm not sure exactly if the 3 parking lot was here. 4 Q: If you -- if you look to your -- to 5 the left on there, there's an area that's been in -- 6 identified previously here as the MNR parking lot. 7 A: As of right where? 8 Q: No, it's further to the left where 9 the -- 10 A: Okay, right. Yes 11 Q: -- Ms. Vella -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- has a hand. 14 A: Yeah, that does make sense. 15 Q: Okay, right. So you were far closer 16 to the Park than the MNR parking lot on that evening? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what were your responsibilities 19 and duties at that checkpoint? 20 A: Just to check every motor vehicle 21 that came through and make observations, document the -- 22 who the driver was. 23 Q: Okay. All right. Were you also 24 checking for weapons? 25 A: Yes. Each vehicle that came through,


1 we'd do a visual of the interior. 2 Q: Just a visual scan of the interior? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: Okay. Okay. And how long did you 5 stay at that -- that particular checkpoint? 6 A: At 22:15 we were advised by another 7 unit of a disturbance at the beach access area beside 8 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 9 Q: Okay. And -- 10 A: So we proceeded to that location to 11 assist. 12 Q: And what did you observe there? 13 A: On arrival we observed a group of -- 14 of Natives, maybe around twenty (20). They had attempted 15 to block the access to the beach with picnic tables. 16 Q: Okay. Roughly how many picnic tables 17 did you observe? 18 A: I remember seeing at least a dozen 19 picnic tables. 20 Q: And how were they positioned? 21 A: They were across the -- the beach 22 access so that it was blocking anyone from accessing the 23 beach. 24 Q: Okay. And what happened next? I'm 25 sorry, first of all how many -- how many First Nations


1 people did you see there or you observed First Nations 2 people there? 3 A: I -- I believe there was about twenty 4 (20). 5 Q: All right. And what did you do next? 6 A: We got out of our car and approached 7 the -- the Natives that were blocking the beach access 8 with picnic tables and told them to -- to leave. There 9 was a lot of yelling going back and forth so it was -- it 10 was hard to -- to understand what conversations were 11 taking place. 12 Q: Okay. You mentioned that you told 13 them to leave, did you tell them to -- merely to leave or 14 did you tell them to go anywhere? 15 A: I don't remember if we actually 16 directed the onto the Ipperwash Provincial Park. We told 17 them to leave. 18 Q: And was it your objective in doing so 19 to have them return to the inside of the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And why was that your 22 objective? 23 A: We were trying to keep that access 24 clear because it is owned by the municipality so it's a - 25 - it's a public access; that was just how we were dealing


1 with it. 2 Q: Okay. And were there any other 3 concerns? Beyond their activities in blocking access, was 4 there any other concerns that you had or that you 5 believed other officers had with respect to the presence 6 of the people occupying the Park on the sandy parking 7 lot? 8 A: In and around that time there had 9 been -- a lot of the neighbours adjoining the Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park were expressing concerns about being 11 nervous, about people going onto their property and there 12 was concern that with these picnic tables across the 13 beach access that the occupiers were expanding their 14 territory and it was causing some of the neighbours to be 15 quite concerned for their safety. 16 Q: Okay. Were those concerns that were 17 expressed directly to you or did you -- 18 A: No. No, they weren't. 19 Q: Okay. Where did you hear about them? 20 A: They were to come up at briefings. 21 Q: So you mentioned that you and other 22 officers began directing people to leave? 23 A: Yes, we did. 24 Q: What happened next? 25 A: There was a lot of yelling going back


1 and forth. The -- the Natives that were there with the 2 picnic tables they left, they went back onto the 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park side of the fence and continued 4 yelling back and forth with the officers. 5 Q: Did you see any attempts to -- to 6 move the picnic tables at that point prior to people 7 going back into the Park? 8 A: I don't remember if our officers 9 actually started to remove picnic tables because they 10 were still dealing with the -- the Natives that were 11 there yelling at us. 12 Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing any 13 police cruisers make contact with picnic tables with 14 their front push bars? 15 A: I don't remember that, no. 16 Q: All right. So people returned to the 17 inside of the Park. You remained in the area? 18 A: When they went back over the fence 19 some of the Natives began throwing rocks at our cruisers 20 so we retrea -- retreated back to our cars and left the 21 scene. There -- some of the cars did get damaged from 22 the rocks. 23 Q: Okay. Just to go back a bit, prior - 24 - prior to your departure, first of all did you recognize 25 any of the -- the individuals, the First Nations people,


1 that were present? 2 A: No, I didn't. 3 Q: Okay. In particular did you see 4 Dudley George that evening? 5 A: I don't remember seeing him. 6 Q: And do you recall where -- where you 7 were standing at -- when people were yelling from inside 8 the fence -- the fence line you've described, where you 9 were standing in relation to Constable Gransden? 10 A: There were several officers there. 11 Officers were moving about dealing with the -- the group 12 that were yelling at them. I'm not really sure exactly 13 where he was standing in relation to me. 14 Q: Okay. And how many officers were 15 there? 16 A: I'm not sure. 17 Q: More than two (2) at any rate? 18 A: Yes, there was. Yes. There was at 19 least one (1) other cruiser that was there with us. 20 Q: Okay. And at any point did you see 21 anyone throw sand at Constable Gransden? 22 A: No, I didn't see that. 23 Q: All right. Did you see Constable 24 Gransden discharge his pepper spray? 25 A: No, I didn't.


1 Q: Did you hear any officer make remarks 2 to the affect of, "Welcome to Canada"? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Did you hear any officer say anything 5 to any of the people present to the affect of "You'll be 6 first"? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. So you mentioned that 9 rocks were being thrown? 10 A: Yes, they were. 11 Q: All right. And they were making 12 contact with cruisers? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Was your vehicle damaged? 15 A: I believe our -- our cruiser did 16 receive a couple of rocks, yes. 17 Q: Okay. All right. And did -- did it 18 sustain -- did your cruiser sustain any damage as a 19 result? 20 A: Yeah, I can't remember. 21 Q: And what did you do on leaving that 22 scene? 23 A: At 22:58 we returned to our 24 checkpoint -- 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: -- and remained there until 7:14 a.m. 2 Q: You were relieved at that point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then you returned to the Forest 5 Detachment I see, for a debriefing? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then you were assigned to return 8 to the sandy parking lot to clear picnic tables; is that 9 correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you describe what happened on 12 your attendance back at the sandy parking lot that 13 morning? 14 A: At 08:40 hours we returned to the 15 beach access. The ERT Team 1, which is the team I belong 16 to, returned with our shields because we were concerned 17 about more rocks being thrown. 18 When we arrived there was two (2) male 19 Natives sitting on the picnic tables. When they saw us, 20 they ran back onto the Ipperwash Provincial Park side of 21 the fence. 22 Q: Did you recognize either of those 23 individuals? 24 A: I didn't, no. 25 Q: Okay. And what were you -- first of


1 all, do you recall what -- what uniform you were wearing 2 that morning? 3 It would have been the same uniform as the 4 night before given that you were still on the same shift? 5 A: It was still my police uniform, blue. 6 Q: Okay. And what were you -- did you 7 have any equipment with you? 8 A: Just our shields. 9 Q: And why did you have your shields 10 with you? 11 A: At -- in case there was more rocks 12 thrown. 13 Q: Okay. And were you also -- did you 14 also have with you batons? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Were you carrying your baton, 17 or was it -- 18 A: It would have been on my belt, my 19 duty belt. 20 Q: Okay. And -- okay, so what happened 21 next? 22 A: ERT Team 1 remained on the scent just 23 to provide coverage. We just observed while the District 24 2 ERT team removed the picnic tables on a flatbed 25 trailer.


1 Q: Okay. Where did you provide coverage 2 from? 3 A: Just where we were standing around, 4 just kind of watching. 5 Q: All right. So you and your team 6 didn't actually have to move any picnic tables 7 yourselves? 8 A: No. 9 Q: ERT Team 2 members did all the heavy 10 lifting? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: Okay. All right. And where were the 13 picnic tables moved to? 14 A: I don't know. 15 Q: All right. Did -- was that removal - 16 - were there any other incidents that occurred during 17 that removal? 18 A: No, there weren't. 19 Q: Okay. So what did you do once it was 20 completed? 21 A: At 09:05 hours we left the scene and 22 went off-duty at 10:00 hours. 23 Q: Okay. Just to sidetrack for a 24 moment, Sergeant Dougan, at that point had you received 25 any information about Project Maple?


1 A: At one of the briefings, I remember 2 hearing refer to the operation as Project Maple, which 3 was the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 Q: All right. And did you -- were you 5 aware that there was an operational plan that had been 6 developed and that it was termed Project Maple? 7 A: I never saw the operational plan. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Okay. And so at that point, on going 12 off duty on the morning of September 6th, you returned to 13 -- you returned to the Pinery; is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And you were next on duty at 16 6:30 p.m.? 17 A: At 18:00 hours on the 6th of 18 September. 19 Q: 18:00 -- 20 A: I was on duty -- 21 Q: -- hours. And then you attended a 22 briefing at the Forest Detachment at 18:30? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Is that correct? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Okay. And do you recall who provided 2 that briefing? 3 A: Sergeant Korosec. 4 Q: Do you recall what the content of the 5 briefing was? 6 A: I don't remember exactly what the 7 content was. I -- at this time, we were received our ASP 8 batons. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know why you received 10 ASP batons at that point? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 Q: All right. You were instructed as to 13 their use, at any rate? 14 A: Yes, how to open them and how to 15 close them. 16 Q: Okay. And did you receive any 17 information, or did you come by any understanding as to 18 the degree of force that was -- would be conferred 19 through the use of an ASP baton, as opposed to the baton 20 that you carried previously? 21 A: I don't remember. 22 Q: At that point, did you form any 23 expectation about how that evening would be proceeding; 24 whether it would be different from the evening previous 25 or whether events had intensified by that point?


1 And I'm speaking at the briefing that you 2 received at the Forest Detachment. 3 A: I don't remember off hand. I know we 4 were instructed to -- we were instructed to attend 5 certain checkpoints. 6 Q: And did you have the same 7 instructions with respect to your -- your staffing of 8 those and your duties at the checkpoints, as on previous 9 evenings? 10 A: I believe so, yes. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And which checkpoint were you 15 assigned to? 16 A: Checkpoint 'D'. 17 Q: Where was that located? 18 A: That was at the front gate of the 19 base. 20 Q: Okay. And just one moment, we're 21 going to pull up Exhibit P-437B again. If you could pick 22 up the pointer. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: There we go. And perhaps if we could 2 move down a little bit. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Okay. And can you see on -- I don't 7 believe that the area that we have up actually captures 8 the location of the front gate. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Can you identify for us, if you will, 13 Sergeant Dougan, where you went on leaving the briefing 14 at -- that began at 6:30 p.m. that evening? 15 A: Yeah, we would have gone to 16 Checkpoint 'D'. 17 Q: 'D', okay. And can you describe, 18 with a bit more detail, where that -- that first 19 checkpoint there was in relation to -- it was just 20 outside the Army Camp, what was it opposite inside the 21 Army Camp? 22 A: It was opposite the front gate. 23 Q: The front gate? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: How far were you from the front gate?


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Maybe forty (40) or fifty (50) feet. 4 Q: Okay. And that was forty (40) or 5 fifty (50) feet down towards the Park and the lake? 6 A: Well, the -- the front gate would be 7 forty (40) or fifty (50) feet from the roadway that was-- 8 Q: From Highway 21? 9 A: Yes. No, from Army Camp Road. 10 Q: Okay. All right. So you were 11 immediately opposite the front gate? 12 A: That's right, yes. 13 Q: And who were you assigned there with? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I believe I was with Officer 18 Gransden. 19 Q: Okay. And were there other units 20 also assigned to that checkpoint at that time? 21 A: Yes. Yes, there were. 22 Q: Do you know which officers were -- or 23 which units those were? 24 A: No, I don't. 25 Q: And what did you observe from that


1 checkpoint? 2 A: Nothing out of the ordinary from that 3 checkpoint. 4 Q: Okay. What's the next thing of any 5 significance that occurred? 6 A: At some time later we were advised to 7 attend Checkpoint 'C' to assist other units, as they were 8 having problems with Natives at this location. 9 When I attended Checkpoint 'C' I observed 10 a lot of traffic up and down the Army Base Road. Some of 11 the vehicles were stopping and shining their headlights 12 and spotlights on the cruisers. 13 Q: Okay. We're just going to try and 14 get that -- that location narrowed down on the map for 15 you. 16 A: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Can you make out, from the way we 21 have the map situated there, where the checkpoint that 22 you proceeded to, after you left Checkpoint 'D', was 23 located? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 A: Yeah. I'm seeing two (2) Checkpoint 2 'C's on here but I'm not sure which one we were at. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: It was either one (1) of these two 5 (2). 6 Q: All right. And is that -- is that 7 map sufficient for you to be able to identify the 8 location or do we need the magnify it more for you, 9 Sergeant Dougan? 10 A: Maybe if you could magnify it a bit 11 more. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: There we go. Is that sufficient for 17 your purposes, or for our purposes here? 18 A: Yeah. I -- I can't -- I'm not sure 19 which one we were at. 20 Q: Okay. Can you describe what was 21 opposite that checkpoint or what was in proximity to it? 22 Specifically I'm thinking -- I know there are trailer 23 parks along Army Camp Road on the left-hand side. 24 A: Yeah. My attention was more so 25 towards the Military Base side, so I really don't


1 remember in relation to the trailer parks where we were. 2 Q: Okay. All right. And could you see 3 the -- the Park or the sandy parking lot from the 4 checkpoint? 5 A: I'm sorry? 6 Q: Could you see the -- the Park or the 7 sandy parking lot from that checkpoint? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Okay. And what did you 10 observe from that checkpoint? 11 A: Vehicles kept stopping and shining 12 their headlights and spotlights on the cruisers. 13 Q: And those were vehicles inside the 14 Military Base? 15 A: Yes. A brown pickup stopped on the 16 Army Base Road in front of us and shut out the headlights 17 and just sat there for a while. Vehicles -- vehicles 18 kept going up and down the road. Pickup -- the pickup 19 let about fifteen (15) minutes after it had stopped. 20 At this time -- I don't have a time noted 21 here but I was -- we were advised of radio -- by radio 22 communications of a large crowd gathering on the beach by 23 the beach access. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Several officers that were at our


1 Checkpoint 'C' were advised to attend the Command Post as 2 an arrest team. 3 Q: Okay. Did you recognize any of the 4 other vehicles that you -- that you saw inside the -- the 5 Military Camp? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. And in particular did you -- 8 did you see the OPP Who car that evening? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Okay. But -- and you would have 11 recognized that vehicle? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. Okay. And I had asked you a 14 question earlier when I was referring you to the wrong 15 page range, you may recall. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: You note -- your notes from September 18 6th on pages 51 through 55 of Exhibit P-1266. 19 Now, I'll repeat the question that I asked 20 in relation to that passage. I note that for those four 21 (4) pages there are no times marked beyond the initial 22 time at 19:29, and they appear to proceed continuously 23 for the next four (4) pages, until page 55 when there's a 24 notation of 12:30. 25 Do you see that?


1 A: Yes, I do. 2 Q: Okay. This appears, Sergeant Dougan, 3 to deviate from your -- your normal practice of making 4 notations of times rather frequently in your notes. 5 Do you recall when you made these notes? 6 A: These notes would have been made 7 later on during the evening, when I had the opportunity 8 to make notes. 9 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether that 10 -- that opportunity would have arisen, say, after 11 midnight or after 12:30, which is the next entry? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: They would have been made prior to 16 12:30 the next day. 17 Q: That would be 12:30 in the morning -- 18 early morning of September 7th? 19 A: That would be 12:30 in the afternoon, 20 the next day. 21 Q: Just after -- just after noon, then? 22 A: Yeah. There was -- there was -- I 23 didn't note the times but entries would have been made 24 periodically during that night -- 25 Q: All right. So they were --


1 A: -- when I had the opportunity. 2 Q: All right. Thank you. To continue, 3 did you observe anything else from Checkpoint 'D'? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: 'C', I apologize, while you were at 8 that location. 9 A: No. At one point we were advised to 10 return to Checkpoint 'D' as they were shutting down Army 11 Camp Road. 12 Q: Okay. Prior to that, did anything of 13 significance occur? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. And they -- you mentioned they 16 were shutting down Army Camp Road. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you receive instructions to 19 assist with that enterprise? 20 A: Yeah, that's why were advised to 21 return to Checkpoint 'D'. 22 Q: Okay. And what was the location that 23 you returned to? Was it the same location at Checkpoint 24 'D', opposite the main gate of the army camp, that you 25 described earlier?


1 A: Checkpoint 'D' would have been moved 2 right up to -- be right up to 21. 3 Q: Right up, so you were on Highway 21 4 or still on Army Camp Road? 5 A: We'd just be on Army Camp Road but 6 right at 21. 7 Q: All right. Okay. And what was your 8 -- what was your role once you got to Checkpoint D? 9 A: Not to allow any vehicles down Army 10 Camp Road. 11 Q: Okay. Were you given any explanation 12 as to why Checkpoint 'D' would be closed? 13 A: No. I assumed it had something to do 14 with the large gathering on the beach access. 15 Q: Okay. And My Friend has helpfully 16 pointed out that in your notes from that evening... 17 A moment's indulgence. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: You appear to receive some radio 22 communications? I'm looking at -- at the top of page 52. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 A: You're referring to the radio comms. 2 advising us to return to Checkpoint 'D'? 3 Q: Yes, that's right. Also I see 4 several officers at Checkpoint 'C' were advised to attend 5 to assist at the TOC site. 6 A: Yeah. I'd mentioned that before, 7 that several officers at Checkpoint 'C' were advised to 8 attend the command post as an arrest team. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: So at this point I knew that they 11 were going to be activating the Crowd Management Unit. 12 Q: Okay. And then you were advised to 13 return to Checkpoint 'D' and then on the following page 14 it was -- what happened next? 15 A: "Observed a lot of vehicle traffic on 16 the Army Base road. Several vehicles 17 were stopping, shining their lights on 18 our cruisers. I was at Checkpoint 'D' 19 with Constable Dellemonache, Parks, 20 Bell, Sergeant Slack, Gransden." 21 I noted the dump truck on the Army Base 22 road. 23 "Returned and shone headlights at 24 us." 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: I also do note I should make a 2 correction there: 3 "At Checkpoint 'D' at this time was 4 opposite the north end of the fenced 5 in gravel yard." 6 Q: All right. That would be the fenced 7 in gravel yard on the Army Camp? 8 A: Army Camp, that's right. 9 Q: Okay. And if you could identify on 10 the map where that would be. 11 A: I'm not sure -- I think that there 12 would be the gravel yard there. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: So our Checkpoint 'D' would be right 15 in here. 16 Q: Right. April 3, 2006And for the -- 17 for the record, Sergeant Dougan is indicating an area at 18 the northern most or lakeside most end of what appears to 19 be the built-up area in the surveillance -- or the aerial 20 photograph, sorry. 21 Okay. So that's actually closer to the 22 lake than the checkpoints that we have indicated already 23 on the map. 24 Is that correct, Sergeant Dougan? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. All right, please continue. 2 A: I did observe several Natives who I 3 couldn't identify. Were too far away. It was rather 4 dark at the time. Were gathering wood pallets and straw 5 and setting -- setting fire. The dump truck with the 6 occupants. 7 At this time I heard over the radio that 8 the crowd at the beach was larger and growing and the 9 crowd was now blocking the beach access. 10 Then I heard that the -- Districts 3 and 6 11 were on the ground and could hear Crowd Management 12 commands over the radio. 13 Q: Okay. And can you recall what 14 commands if any, you actually overheard? 15 A: No. I -- I don't remember exactly. 16 Q: Okay. And if you could speak 17 directly into the mike, Sergeant Dougan, and again, maybe 18 try and speak to the back of the room just in terms of 19 projection. 20 A: Sure. 21 Q: All right. And so what happened 22 next? 23 A: During the time that there were some 24 commands over the radio, I also heard gunfire over the 25 radio. A short time later several vehicles were observed


1 southbound on Army Base Road so they would be coming from 2 the are where the -- the beach access was towards the 3 front entrance to the Base. 4 Q: Okay. And just to take you back a 5 little bit, you -- you mentioned that you heard gunfire 6 over the -- over the radio? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: First of all, do you have independent 9 recollection of that over and above your notes? 10 A: Yes. Yes. 11 Q: Can you recall what you heard over 12 the radio? Was it anymore specificity than what you have 13 described there? 14 A: Just -- just a lot of shouting and -- 15 and some gunshots. 16 Q: All right. Do you recall how many 17 shots you heard? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And were those shots audible to your 20 ear outside of over the radio? 21 A: No, I don't remember hearing anything 22 outside of the radio. 23 Q: All right. And you mentioned with 24 the vehicle travelling at a high rate of speed? 25 A: Yes. There was several vehicles


1 observed southbound so they'd be heading away from the -- 2 the beach access towards the front entrance to the -- to 3 the Base. 4 At this time we were advised to move the 5 Checkpoint 'D' up to Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 6 Q: Okay. And can you identify where -- 7 where you were instructed or where -- where that 8 checkpoint was eventually set up? 9 A: It would be right at Army Camp Road 10 and 21. 11 Q: So right on the -- on the corner 12 there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did you recognize the 15 vehicle, first of all, that you'd seen travelling at a 16 high rate of speed, or can you describe it? 17 A: No, I -- I couldn't describe it. It 18 was -- it was dark at the time. 19 Q: Okay. Right, and what happened next? 20 A: A -- one (1) of the cars came off of 21 the army base. I observed another cruiser pursue after 22 that vehicle. 23 Q: Do you recall who was in that 24 cruiser, who's cruiser that was? 25 A: It'd be Lorch and Bell, I believe.


1 Q: Okay. And did they leave from your 2 checkpoint or were they coming from another location? 3 A: They were from our checkpoint. 4 Q: Okay. And you, by that point, were 5 situated at the new location you've indicated, for 6 Checkpoint 'D'? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Right, and can you describe 9 the vehicle that you saw, the non-police vehicle? 10 A: No, I don't remember. 11 Q: Okay. All right, all right. And so 12 what did you do next? 13 A: We followed the other cruiser that 14 was pursuing the -- the vehicle that came off of the army 15 base to provide back up. 16 Q: Okay. And when you say "we", that 17 was you and Constable Gransden? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Do you recall who was driving the 20 vehicle? 21 A: I believe it was Constable Gransden 22 was driving. 23 Q: And why did you -- were you ordered 24 to follow along in that pursuit? 25 A: No, that was just something we took


1 the initiative on. 2 Q: And why did you do that? 3 A: The concerns I had at the time were 4 there had been a shooting down at the beach. We'd had 5 very little information as to what transpired down there. 6 There was a vehicle leaving a scene of a 7 shooting, as far as I was concerned. It was an officer 8 safety issue and that would be -- our standard procedure 9 would be to give assistance. 10 Q: Okay. And at that point, you -- did 11 you have any further information about the circumstances 12 surrounding the shots that you'd heard over the radio? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Okay, what happened next, 15 on leaving your checkpoint and joining in the pursuit? 16 A: We followed after the -- after the 17 other cruiser that was pursuing the -- the car. 18 Q: Did your vehicle have its lights on? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. How about its siren? 21 A: I don't remember if the siren was 22 activated on our vehicle. The other car had its lights 23 on. 24 Q: Okay. Had its cruiser lights on? 25 A: Yes, the lights were activated.


1 Q: Okay. And do you know if it had its 2 siren on? 3 A: I'm not sure. 4 Q: All right. What happened next? 5 A: The vehicle wouldn't pull over, which 6 was a concern. I -- we weren't really sure what was 7 going on. The vehicle continued on to Northville and 8 stopped at a restaurant. 9 Q: Okay. Just prior to that, at any 10 point along the -- along the way there, did you engage in 11 any radio communications? 12 A: I don't remember. 13 Q: You don't remember? Do you recall 14 Constable Granden -- Gransden engaging in any radio 15 communications? 16 A: I don't remember, no. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall receiving 18 instructions at any point to deactivate your -- your 19 flashing lights? 20 A: I don't remember that, no. 21 Q: Okay. All right. So you mentioned 22 that the vehicle stopped or pulled into a restaurant on 23 Northville? 24 A: Yes. It pulled up to the -- it would 25 be the west corner of the -- corner of the building where


1 there was a pay phone. 2 We positioned our cruiser, because we 3 considered -- I -- we considered it a high risk take 4 down, we -- we positioned our cruiser to the left of the 5 initial cruiser that was pursuing the vehicle. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: To provide cover. 8 Q: Okay. Is that standard practice in a 9 high risk take down situation? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: Okay. And what's the purpose of 12 positioning your vehicle in that manner? 13 A: It allows both officers -- the 14 occupants of both cruisers to have clear view of the 15 suspect vehicle. It enhances the -- your visibility as 16 to what occupants are in the vehicle, because there are 17 concerns that how many people are in the vehicle; are 18 there weapons in there? 19 That was a concern we had; we didn't know, 20 what were the occupants doing. So that's the purpose of 21 having two (2) vehicles staggered. 22 Q: Okay And what happened next? 23 A: I got out of the car and remained 24 behind the vehicle for coverage with my sidearm out. 25 Q: Okay. And your sidearm was out?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Where -- and what could you observe 3 at that point in terms of the -- the vehicle you'd been 4 pursuing? 5 A: It had stopped at the -- the pay 6 phone and one (1) of the officers, I believe it was 7 Officer Gransden, was giving commands to the driver. 8 Q: All right. What were those -- you 9 mentioned that you had your sidearm out where was -- 10 where it pointed, in what direction? 11 A: It was pointed in the direction of 12 the driver. 13 Q: Okay. And where were the other 14 officers at that point? You've mentioned Lorch, 15 Constables Lorch and Bell? 16 A: Yeah. I'm not sure exactly where 17 they were standing. 18 Q: All right. And so Constable Gransden 19 was issuing directions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you recall what directions he was 22 issuing? 23 A: He was ordering the driver away from 24 the -- the phone. All the while, while he was giving out 25 those commands the driver wasn't -- wasn't listening to


1 what he was saying, wasn't cooperating. 2 Q: What -- 3 A: We weren't sure when the vehicle 4 first stopped if the driver had any weapons on them. It 5 was very low light conditions at this location. It was a 6 very small street light so the visibility was very poor. 7 Q: How far were you from the payphone? 8 A: I'm not sure exactly how far I was. 9 I don't remember. 10 Q: Could you hear Officer or Constable 11 Gransden clearly and what he was saying? 12 A: Yes, he was very clear. 13 Q: And did you hear the -- the driver of 14 the car say anything? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Okay. What happens -- what happened 17 next? 18 A: Constable Gransden and Constable 19 Lorch arrested the driver. During the arrest I did note 20 that: 21 "The driver was not cooperating, 22 flailing her arms around, refusing to 23 listen to what the officers had to 24 say." 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: So the officers had to take physical 2 control over her to arrest her. 3 Q: You've already described that you had 4 your handgun out. At any point did you pick up your -- 5 your long gun? 6 A: No. 7 Q: What long guns did you have with you 8 at that time? 9 A: They would have been our mini Rugers. 10 Q: And they remained in the vehicle -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- in your vehicle? Did you see what 13 Constable Gransden had with him? 14 A: No, I didn't. 15 Q: Okay. And did you speak to anybody? 16 Did you issue any directions -- 17 A: No, I didn't. 18 Q: -- to either occupant of the car? 19 Did you hear any other officers speaking 20 or -- or directing either the driver or the other 21 occupant of the car? 22 A: I -- I don't remember. 23 Q: Okay. Okay. You said that Constable 24 Gransden and Lorch took control or arrested -- affected 25 the arrest --


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- of the driver? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can you describe how they did 5 that? 6 A: I don't remember exactly how they 7 took control of her because I was concerned about where 8 the passenger was and what they were doing so I was 9 keeping an eye on the passenger as well as trying to 10 monitor their situation. 11 Q: And you could see the -- the 12 passenger at that point? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how much could you observe about 15 her? 16 A: She was seated in the vehicle, wasn't 17 causing a problem as far as I could see. 18 Q: Okay. Did you see Ms. Simon or -- 19 I'm sorry, the driver of the vehicle who has testified at 20 these -- at these proceedings, did you see Constables 21 Lorch or Gransden put handcuffs on Ms. Simon? 22 A: I don't remember, no. 23 Q: All right. So you were focussing on 24 the passenger at that point? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. And did you hear during this 2 period, during the period of the arrest any 3 communications from either the passenger or the driver of 4 the car? 5 Did you hear them say anything? 6 A: At some point I did hear the driver 7 saying, "I'm on the phone". 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: That's all I can remember. 10 Q: And do you recall her saying anything 11 about why she was on the phone? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 14 A: Both occupants were transported to 15 Highway 21 at Ipperwash Road. And the driver was turned 16 over to the prisoner van. 17 Q: At some point, that driver was 18 identified to you as Marcia Simon? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And first of all, did -- the 21 passenger in the car, at what point did she exit her 22 vehicle -- that vehicle? 23 A: I don't remember. 24 Q: Do you recall her being ordered out 25 of the vehicle at any point?


1 A: No. 2 Q: At some point the passenger in the 3 vehicle was identified to you as Melva George? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And we've heard that Ms. 6 George was quite -- quite advanced in years? 7 A: Yes. She was -- 8 Q: Did you observe this? 9 A: -- appeared to be older than the 10 driver. 11 Q: Older than the driver and -- and 12 generally fairly elderly? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. At what point would you have 15 observed that characteristic? 16 A: I'm not sure when that was. 17 Q: Okay. And so the driver and the 18 passenger were put -- placed in your cruiser, is that 19 correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Just -- I have one (1) more question. 22 Prior to the arrest when Officer -- you described 23 Constable Gransden as issuing directions to the driver of 24 the car. 25 Can you describe his tone when he did so?


1 A: It was clear. The standard procedure 2 when you're giving someone directions, is make it clear 3 and loud enough that they can hear you in an 4 authoritative tone -- authoritative tone. 5 And Officer Gransden was following that 6 method of giving out the commands. 7 Q: All right. So the arrested driver 8 and as well as the passenger in the car were placed in 9 your vehicle. 10 Do you have recollection as to how -- 11 how the passenger got from her vehicle into yours? 12 A: I -- I believe she was escorted. I 13 don't recall there ever being any handcuffs on her. 14 Q: Did you communicate with her while 15 she was in her car? 16 A: I don't remember. 17 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether 18 there any other officers communicated with her -- or just 19 to go back. 20 Did you communicate with her once she was 21 outside of your car -- or her car and yours? 22 A: At some point I did have 23 communication with -- with both of them. 24 Q: Okay. And that was prior to their 25 entering your cruiser?


1 A: Possibly, yes. 2 Q: Can you recall what the nature of 3 that communication was? 4 A: Both were saying the same thing that 5 someone had been shot on the Base and needed an 6 ambulance. And wouldn't ask our help because we never 7 helped before. 8 Q: Okay. I have a couple of questions 9 about that. First of all, did you do anything as a -- a 10 result of the information you received from them that 11 people had been shot and that they required an ambulance? 12 A: My understanding from radio 13 communications that there were -- there was an ambulance 14 had been dispatched. I don't know where it was 15 dispatched to but. 16 Q: And what did you understand -- you 17 indicated that they told you that they wouldn't ask for 18 your help because -- correct me if I'm wrong, because 19 they -- because you'd never helped them before, is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Is that roughly what 23 they -- 24 A: That was a statement. 25 Q: That was what they told you?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: What did you understand that to mean? 3 A: I really didn't know what that meant. 4 Q: Okay. At any point did you or 5 Officer Gransden while the two (2) women were in your 6 cruiser, engage in any questioning of the women? 7 A: I don't remember that. 8 Q: Okay. Do you recall you or Constable 9 Gransden asking the driver of the car anything about her 10 failure to stop? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 Q: Okay. And also just for the record, 13 the arrest that was affected, what -- what was the -- 14 what were the grounds for that arrest on the driver of 15 the car? 16 A: Under the...? 17 Q: What did you understand she was being 18 arrested for? 19 A: The Highway Traffic Act for failing 20 to stop for police. 21 Q: Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And so they were taken to the -- I'm


1 sorry, the location again where -- 2 A: They -- 3 Q: -- the transfer was effected? 4 A: We transported them back to Highway 5 21 and Ipperwash Road. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: Where we met with a prisoner van. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And the driver was transferred to 10 their custody. 11 Q: Okay. And what happened with the 12 passenger in the car? 13 A: We drove her back to Kettle Point. 14 Q: And to her residence at Kettle Point 15 or some other -- what location did you drive her to? 16 A: I don't have it noted. I'm not sure 17 whose residence it was. 18 Q: Okay. Do you recall roughly what 19 time that occurred? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: Okay. 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Commissioner, 23 this is a little bit of an awkward time, but I do have a 24 whole other set of questions for Sergeant Dougan in 25 relation to the incidents he's just described, I'm


1 wondering if this might be -- be the best time, otherwise 2 it'll likely take another half an hour or so. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 4 fine. We'll break now for lunch. 5 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: All right. Thank 6 you, Commissioner. 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 8 adjourned until two o'clock. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 12:52 p.m. 11 --- Upon resuming at 2:06 p.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 14 resumed. Please be seated. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Commissioner. Good 18 afternoon, Sergeant Dougan. 19 You'll recall right before lunch, we were 20 -- you were describing the pursuit of a vehicle along 21 Highway 21 and then the arrest of the driver of that 22 vehicle who was later identified as Marcia Simon, as well 23 as the transfer of Ms. Simon and taking the passenger of 24 that car, Melva George, to her home at Kettle Point. 25 I just have a few -- I have a few more


1 questions relating to that. You may be aware that Ms. 2 Simon, the driver of the vehicle, has testified at this 3 Inquiry? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I thought I'd give you a chance 6 to comment on -- on some of her evidence about the same 7 set of events. Okay. She testified on September 23rd, 8 2004, that she stopped at the stop sign at Highway 21 and 9 Army Camp Driver after leaving the Army Camp and before 10 turning left towards Northville. 11 Do you recall seeing the vehicle stop at 12 that stop sign? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: And is it that you don't recall 15 seeing it or that you saw -- saw her pass that point and 16 she did not stop? 17 A: I didn't actually see her at the stop 18 sign. 19 Q: Thank you. She also testified that 20 one (1) of the cruisers pulled up beside her while she 21 was driving along Highway 21 during the course of the 22 pursuit. 23 Do you recall that happening? 24 A: I don't recall it, but that's quite 25 possible.


1 Q: She indicated that once at the 2 Northville Plaza officers hid behind gas pumps and had 3 their guns levelled towards her and kept advancing 4 towards her; that would be more than one (1) officer. 5 Do you agree with that statement? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Okay. That's not consistent with 8 your recollection? 9 A: No, it isn't. 10 Q: Okay. She testified that the phone 11 she was holding in the phone booth was violently taken 12 out of her hand. 13 Do you recall seeing that? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you -- and I'll ask you to 16 specify whether -- did you just not see the -- the 17 sequence of events during which that would take place or 18 did you see it and that's not what happened? 19 A: I didn't actually see that sequence 20 of events. 21 Q: Thank you. And that's just for 22 clarity of the record. 23 A: Sure. 24 Q: Did you hear Ms. George, who was 25 identified to the Inquiry as Ms. Simon's mother, that's


1 the passenger in the car yelling to officers at any 2 point? 3 A: I don't recall her yelling. 4 Q: Okay. Ms. Simon testified that her 5 mother was yelling to officers warning them about the 6 fact that Ms. Simon had a bone graft in her wrist? 7 A: I don't remember that as well. 8 Q: Okay. Do you recall learning at any 9 point, or ever coming to know that Ms. Simon had a 10 painful condition in her wrist of any kind or injuries - 11 A: No. 12 Q: -- to her wrist? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Ms. Simon testified that she was put 15 over the hood of the car and then put to the ground 16 during the course of her arrest. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A: I know there was a scuffle. I don't 19 remember that sequence of events. 20 Q: Okay. And I am going to read to you 21 a portion of Ms. Simon's evidence just because it -- it's 22 better than me summarizing it. It's from, for the 23 record, page 172 of the transcripts on September 23rd, 24 2004, in these proceedings. It begins with a question 25 from Commission Counsel:


1 "At that point did you see what if 2 anything was going on with your 3 mother?" 4 And that's in reference to after her 5 arrest. Okay. Her answer is: 6 "Yes, after I was in an upright 7 position I was aware of her right down 8 on the ground trying to pray. She had 9 her medicines with her and they 10 wouldn't allow her to use them. And 11 they had shotguns levelled right at her 12 head yelling at her to put her hands in 13 the air and she was pleading that she 14 couldn't because she had arthritis and 15 I thought they were going to blow her 16 away. 17 I pleaded with him -- with them. I 18 said, Leave her alone, she's just -- 19 she's been just riding with me. She 20 didn't do anything wrong. I asked them 21 if that's how they were trained to 22 treat old grey-haired widows and they 23 seemed to calm down a little. They 24 couldn't answer that question." 25 Now, just to go back through that


1 quotation, did you ever see Melva George down on the 2 ground in any position that could be described as down on 3 the ground -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- outside of the car? 6 A: No, I did not. 7 Q: Okay. Did you ever see her making 8 attempts to pray -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- or anything that looked like 11 praying to you? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Did you see her at any point with 14 anything that could have been traditional medicines in 15 her hands? 16 A: I don't -- it's possible she did. 17 Q: Okay. Did you search Melva George at 18 any point, or did Constable Gransden, in your 19 observation? 20 A: I didn't personally search her, no. 21 Q: Okay. Were you aware of any other 22 officers searching her? 23 A: None that I can remember, no. 24 Q: Okay. And with respect to -- to the 25 next statement,


1 "They had shot guns levelled right at 2 her head." 3 Did you ever point any weapon at Melva 4 George? A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Did you see any other 6 officers -- 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: -- pointing weapons? All right. And 9 when you say you didn't see -- see any other officers, is 10 it possible that other officers did? 11 A: It's possible. I don't see it as a 12 logical, given the context of the situation. 13 Q: And what context would that be? 14 A: Well, the driver failed to stop, so 15 they were dealing with her. You've got an elderly 16 passenger. It doesn't seem logical that there would be a 17 whole lot of force required, once you've contained the 18 driver. 19 Q: Okay. All right. And Ms. Simon 20 testified, as I've read, that she pleaded with officers 21 to leave her mother alone and said that, She's just been 22 riding with me, she didn't do anything. 23 Do you recall hearing that? 24 A: No, I didn't. 25 Q: Do you recall Ms. Simon asking if you


1 were trained -- That was how you were trained to treat 2 old, grey-haired widows? 3 A: I don't remember that statement, 4 either, as well. 5 Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing Ms. Simon 6 wearing glasses at any point? 7 A: No, it was -- it was fairly dark, so 8 I don't remember if she had glasses on or not. 9 Q: Okay. And the reason why I ask, I'm 10 sorry, is that she testified that her glasses were broken 11 during her arrest. 12 So you never saw glasses? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. And, Sergeant Dougan, I'm just 15 going to play for you right now, we have a 911 recording 16 that's been entered in these proceedings as Exhibit P-48. 17 It appears to capture some of the 18 conversations that night. The transcript is in front of 19 you. It's Exhibit P-49. Do you have that in front of 20 you? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: Okay. And, Commissioner, that should 23 be in the front -- front of your binder. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I have 25 it.


1 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. And 2 I'm just going to ask Ms. Vella to play that recording. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 5 6 TAPE-RECORDED MESSAGE 911 CALL 7 OPERATOR: Police, Fire and Ambulance. 8 CALLER: Send an ambulance down to Stoney Point, we 9 got two guys down, two guys shot. 10 OPERATOR: Okay, I'm going to patch you through, okay 11 sir. 12 AMBULANCE: Ambulance. 13 OPERATOR: Hello are you there. 14 AMBULANCE: I'm here ma'am. 15 OPERATOR: No that's me, it's Terry. 16 AMBULANCE: Who's Terry. 17 OPERATOR: From the police. 18 AMBULANCE: Sorry, okay. 19 OPERATOR: I just got some guy that said they had two 20 people shot down at Stoney Point, and they 21 wanted an ambulance. 22 AMBULANCE: Stoney or Ipperwash there. 23 OPERATOR: All he said was Stoney Point. Did you, 24 did you guys already get a call on that. 25 AMBULANCE: Yea, we've got two ambulances on


1 (inaudible) down there. 2 3 911 CALL 4 -2- 5 OPERATOR: You do. 6 AMBULANCE: Hang on there Terry. 7 OPERATOR: Okay. 8 AMBULANCE: Terry... 9 OPERATOR: Hi... 10 AMBULANCE: They're calling in from 9780 Army Camp 11 Road, right. 12 OPERATOR: Yep, that's what I've here too, he must 13 have hung up. 14 AMBULANCE: Okay, I've got a Sergeant on the line here 15 anyway. 16 OPERATOR: Are they needed. 17 AMBULANCE: We've got two ambulances right there now. 18 OPERATOR: Are they Natives, Jeff, or are they Police 19 Officers. 20 AMBULANCE: Oh I don't know. I've got to go. 21 OPERATOR: Okay, okay, bye now. 22 OPERATOR: Police, Fire and Ambulance. 23 24 911 CALL 25 -3-


1 CALLER: (in the background) don't make a move 2 lady. 3 I'm just talking on the phone, get the gun 4 out of here. 5 OPERATOR: Do you need the police, fire or ambulance. 6 CALLER: Ambulance. 7 OPERATOR: Okay, I'm going to patch you through, 8 okay. 9 OPERATOR: Okay, what's your address there. 10 (in the background) get on the ground. 11 What's your address. 12 Okay this is the operator you're talking 13 to now. 14 OPERATOR: What is the address there, do you know. 15 OPERATOR(1): I don't know, I've only got a phone number 16 OPERATOR: Alright what's the phone number. 17 OPERATOR(1): It's 243-8953. 18 AMBULANCE: There's ambulance there now, and another 19 ones been called. 20 OPERATOR: Okay. 21 AMBULANCE: Hello, who's this. 22 23 911 CALL 24 -4- 25 OPERATOR: You're talking to the operator now.


1 AMBULANCE: Okay from where. 2 OPERATOR: I'm in Windsor... 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 7 Q: All right. Sergeant Dougan you had 8 an opportunity to listen to that call and review the 9 transcript, first of all did you recognize any of the 10 voices on that tape? 11 A: No. 12 Q: No. At various points in listening, 13 did it sound to you as if there's more than one (1) 14 officer speaking at a time? 15 A: It did sound like that, yes. 16 Q: All right. And were you able to -- 17 you've already testified that you didn't actually 18 communicate directly with the -- the driver of the car? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Okay. So you didn't hear your voice 21 on that tape? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And you had testified earlier 24 that it was only Constable Gransden that was issuing 25 directions to -- to Ms. Simon.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Does this refresh your memory with 3 respect to -- to that particular point, whether there was 4 ever more than one (1) officer issuing directions? 5 A: There could have very well have been 6 more than one (1). 7 Q: Okay. And with respect to the 8 conversation that was captured during that call, do you 9 recall overhearing that particular conversation? 10 A: I do remember -- remember her saying 11 that she was on the phone. 12 Q: Okay. While -- and that was while 13 she was in a phone booth -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- in the phone booth? 16 Those are all my questions on that 17 particular incident. You've testified that you -- you 18 took Ms. George to Kettle Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: What did you do after that? 21 A: I returned to Highway 21 and 22 Ipperwash Road and remained there at Checkpoint 1. The 23 road was blocked off at this location, so there were 24 officers in police uniforms conducting the roadblock. 25 And myself and other ERT members provided coverage for


1 the officers. 2 Q: Okay. Did -- did any vehicles 3 actually approach the roadblock or the checkpoint? 4 A: There were some vehicles, yes. 5 Q: And were they turned away? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And where did you -- you test 8 -- or you described providing coverage, where were you 9 located? 10 A: I would have been off the road, on 11 the north side of the road, off in the shadows. 12 Q: Okay. And were you standing or 13 prone? 14 A: Sometimes standing, sometimes prone. 15 Q: All right. And what weapon did you 16 have with you at that point? 17 A: I had both my side arm and my mini- 18 Ruger. 19 Q: Okay. And at any point while you 20 were at that checkpoint, did you learn anything further 21 about the events of the previous evening? 22 A: I'd known, of course, there was a 23 shooting, but I don't recall how much information I knew 24 at that point. 25 Q: All right. Okay. And how long did


1 you remain at that checkpoint? 2 A: I was there until in the morning, 3 there was a protest march from Kettle Point up 21 Highway 4 to the Army Base. 5 Q: Do you have note or a recollection of 6 what time that march occurred? 7 A: It would have been some time first 8 thing in the morning. It was daylight at that time. 9 Q: All right. And you were -- you were 10 still at the new location for Checkpoint 'D' at that 11 point? 12 A: Checkpoint 1, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And what did you observe? 14 A: A group of people, about fifty (50) 15 or so, some First Nations people, some that I recognized 16 from Walpole Island. Officer -- 17 Q: I see. I'm sorry, you said some you 18 recognized from Walpole Island? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yeah. 23 A: Officer Parks did try to speak to the 24 group to tell them they couldn't -- we couldn't guarantee 25 their safety if they continued in the direction they were


1 headed, but no one was listening. 2 Q: Where were you standing during that 3 particular exchange? 4 A: Just on the shoulder of the road. 5 Q: Where was Officer Parks standing? 6 A: He was nearby. 7 Q: All right. And what effect did -- 8 did his words have on the people that were marching? 9 A: They wouldn't -- they didn't listen, 10 they just kept on walking. 11 Q: Okay. And approximately how may 12 people would you say participated in the march? 13 A: I estimated fifty (50) or more. 14 Q: Okay. And was that only people on 15 foot? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Did you observe any 18 vehicles participating in that demonstration? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And did you have your grun -- gun 21 drawn at any point -- 22 A: no. 23 Q: -- during that -- that exchange? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And had you received any


1 instructions on how to deal with the march? 2 A: No, I was just -- I was just standing 3 by. 4 Q: All right. And how long did you 5 remain at the checkpoint? 6 A: I'm not sure what time we left there, 7 I don't have it documented in my notebook, because as 8 some point we returned to the Command Post in Forest for 9 a debriefing. 10 Q: Okay. Okay. And what did you do 11 after that? 12 A: At 12:30 we left the Command Post to 13 return to our rooms but enroute received information over 14 the radio that Native protestors were attacking the TOC 15 site. We proceeded in that direction but were called 16 off. 17 Q: And so you didn't actually attend in 18 the -- the TOC site? Were you told why you were called 19 off? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. And did you have any 22 further on-duty involvement with the situation at 23 Ipperwash? 24 A: No, I didn't. 25 Q: And at any point, Sergeant Dougan,


1 did you become aware of the -- the availability of 2 certain mugs and t-shirts to OPP officers? 3 A: I believe there were some mugs and t- 4 shirts that were sold, yes. 5 Q: Okay. And where did you observe 6 them -- 7 A: Hmm. 8 Q: -- or did you observe them yourself? 9 A: I did purchase one, but after I 10 purchased it I realized it wasn't very sensitive to the - 11 - to the issues at hand and -- and destroyed it. 12 Q: Okay. And you say you purchased 13 one (1) -- 14 A: T-shirt. 15 Q: -- t-shirt? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And can you tell me when you 18 purchased that? 19 A: I'm not sure exactly when it was. It 20 was just shortly after. 21 Q: Okay. And where did you purchase it? 22 A: I believe it was in -- in Forest. 23 Q: In Forest from a store? 24 A: No, from -- from the office or from - 25 - from another officer who -- who placed the order.


1 Q: Okay. And can you recall who that 2 officer was? 3 A: No, I can't, offhand. 4 Q: And can you describe the t-shirt for 5 us? 6 A: It was a black t-shirt with, "Project 7 Maple". It had an anvil with -- with an arrow. I can't 8 remember exactly how it was. It just -- it -- you know 9 regretful at the time that I -- I purchased it and I -- I 10 didn't keep it. 11 Q: Okay. And -- and did you observe 12 any -- any of the mugs that -- 13 A: I do remember -- 14 Q: -- were mentioned? 15 A: I do remember there were mugs. I 16 didn't really look that close at them and I didn't 17 purchase one. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And did you have any 19 involvement in -- or were you aware of an investigation 20 into -- into the existence of those mugs and t-shirts? 21 A: I think I heard later on that there 22 was an investigation into it. 23 Q: And did you participate in that 24 investigation in any way? 25 A: No.


1 Q: All right. And at any point did you 2 become aware of the results of that investigation? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. Thank you. 5 Thank you, Sergeant Dougan, those are all 6 my questions I have for you. I anticipate My Friends 7 will have some questions for you as well this afternoon. 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: If -- perhaps we could canvass, as is 10 our normal practice, to get estimates of the -- from the 11 parties or Counsel for the parties? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 Ontario Provincial, Ms. Jackson...? 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No more than 15 fifteen (15) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 17 minutes? 18 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Fifteen (15) 19 minutes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 Alexander...? 22 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: Mr. Commissioner, 23 I'll be switching with Ms. Esmonde for this Witness, and 24 I'll be -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry?


1 MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: I'll be switching 2 with Ms. Esmonde for this Witness and I will reserve 3 fifteen (15) minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 5 minutes. 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Ms. Esmonde....? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 8 Esmonde...? 9 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Forty-five (45) 10 minutes to an hour. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Forty-five 12 (45) to an hour. 13 Mr. Neil...? 14 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Forty-five (45) 15 minutes, Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Roy...? 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: That was -- 18 MR. JULIAN ROY: Forty-five (45) minutes 19 to an hour also, sir. 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. And just 21 for the record, Mr. Neil indicated forty-five (45) 22 minutes as well. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 24 see, we've got -- I'd like to finish this witness today, 25 if possible.


1 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: It appears to be 2 roughly between two and a half (2 1/2) and three (3) 3 hours, Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, we 5 should be able to finish. 6 Yes, Ms. Jackson? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good afternoon, 11 Mr. Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 afternoon. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 16 Q: And good afternoon, sir. My name is 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm going to ask you some 18 questions on behalf of the OPP. 19 And if I can begin, sir, did you know, 20 back on the evening of September the 5th, 1995, Ken 21 Deane, to see him? 22 A: Back during this investigation? 23 Q: Back in September -- 24 A: September -- 25 Q: On the evening of the September the


1 5th, 1995 would you be able to recognize Ken Deane? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. We've heard some evidence 4 before this Inquiry that on the evening of September the 5 5th, 1995, that a number of officers responded to deal 6 with the -- the blocking of the sandy parking lot, which 7 culminated in the throwing of rocks towards cruisers; 8 that Ken Deane was present during that incident. 9 Can you -- 10 A: No, he wasn't. 11 Q: Thank you. You've given us an 12 overview, sir, of your participation in relation to 13 Ipperwash-related events, starting around July 29th, 1995 14 up until the early morning hours of September the 7th. 15 During any point in your involvement over 16 that period, did you see any firecrackers being set off, 17 either in or around Ipperwash Provincial Park, or in or 18 around the army base? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you hear any firecrackers being 21 set off in the vicinity of those two (2) areas? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you learn of any reports of 24 firecrackers being set off in either of those areas? 25 A: No.


1 Q: You told us, sir, that, and I can't 2 remember the precise time, it was either very late on 3 September the 4th or early morning hours of September the 4 5th, you received certain instructions during the course 5 of a briefing in relation to your duties at checkpoints. 6 And in particular, you were instructed to 7 stop every vehicle who came through the checkpoint that 8 you happened to be manning. 9 Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. I want you to bear that 12 in mind and I want you to compare those instructions with 13 the instructions that you may or may not have had in 14 relation to the vehicles that you told us you stopped in 15 August and in early September, prior to the 4th. 16 You recall that you gave us some evidence 17 of certain vehicles that you stopped during the course of 18 your patrols? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And I trust, sir, that in stopping 21 those vehicles, you were doing so, not pursuant to any 22 type of instruction, similar to what you received early - 23 - the morning hours of September the 5th, you were 24 stopping those vehicles for unrelated reasons? 25 A: That's correct, yes.


1 Q: Thank you. Well, finally, sir, I 2 want to ask you about your two (2) attendances at the 3 sandy parking lot, the first on the evening of September 4 the 5th and the second on the morning of September the 5 6th. 6 And as I understand your evidence, sir, in 7 relation to your attendance on the evening of September 8 the 5th, it's fair to say, from your observation, that 9 the mere presence of officers attending at that scene, 10 was sufficient to move the occupiers from the parking 11 lot, back behind the fence line into the Park? 12 A: Yes. Between our commands and our 13 presence, yes. 14 Q: Exactly. In other words you were 15 able to achieve that goal without the need of any type of 16 a physical confrontation with the occupiers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. And similarly, sir, as I 19 understand your evidence, on the morning of the 6th you 20 attended at the sandy parking lot with the instruction to 21 provide cover for other officers to remove picnic tables 22 that had accumulated in that parking lot. 23 Do I have that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Would it be fair to say


1 that there were approximately twelve (12) of you in total 2 in attendance to affect that goal? 3 A: Between the two (2) ERT teams? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: That would be fair to say, yes. 6 Q: And as you've told us, sir, a number 7 of you were there carrying shields. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And again, as I understand your 10 evidence, sir, there were two (2) First Nations occupiers 11 initially seated on a picnic table in the sandy parking 12 lot? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: From your observation, when your 15 group of officers attended at that parking lot, those two 16 (2) individuals immediately fled back into the Park; is 17 that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And they did not return back into the 20 parking lot while you were there? 21 A: That's correct, yes. 22 Q: And again, that affect occurred 23 without any physical confrontation between the officers 24 and those two (2) individuals, correct? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Thank you. Thank you very much, sir, 2 for your time. 3 Those are my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 5 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 6 Ms. Esmonde...? 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 9 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant. My name is 10 Jackie Esmonde. I'll be asking you some questions on 11 behalf of the Aazhoodena and George Family Group -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- which includes Marcia Simon. 14 Now, beginning with the pursuit and arrest 15 of Marcia Simon, you would agree with me that at no time 16 was Ms. Simon's vehicle going above the speed limit? 17 A: Yes, that's fair to say. 18 Q: And did you find that at times she 19 was travelling below the speed limit? 20 A: I don't remember how fast she was 21 going. 22 Q: Okay. Apart from the fact that she 23 wasn't above the speed limit. 24 A: She wasn't going very fast, no. 25 Q: And the speed limit on Highway 21 is


1 eighty (80) kilometres an hour? 2 A: I believe so, yes. 3 Q: Now you've described how the vehicle, 4 which was staffed by Constable Lorch and Bell, they began 5 the pursuit. And did they activate their lights 6 immediately? 7 A: I'm not sure when they activated 8 their lights. 9 Q: When your vehicle began to follow 10 them, were their lights on? 11 A: Our lights were on, yes. 12 Q: Okay. Were their lights on? 13 A: I don't know. 14 Q: You don't know? Now I understand, 15 from evidence we're heard previously at the Inquiry, the 16 protocol is when officer -- officers are engaged in a 17 pursuit, that there should be a sergeant who's monitoring 18 that pursuit. 19 You're aware of that protocol? 20 A: Yes, I am. 21 Q: And one of the reasons for having 22 such a protocol is the inherent danger involved in a 23 pursuit of this nature? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So the protocol would have required


1 the lead vehicle to have radioed in to have a sergeant 2 monitoring; is that correct? 3 A: The protocol is for the -- the 4 initiating officer to let the supervisor know, let the 5 comm. centre know. 6 Q: And you heard that call being 7 radioed, very shortly after the pursuit began? 8 A: I don't remember that at all. 9 Q: Now I take it from the evidence 10 you've given, you don't recall receiving a command to 11 deactivate the lights? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: We have had -- heard a radio 14 transmission that suggested that did, in fact, occur. 15 Given that you can't recall, I -- I assume -- can I 16 assume, sir, that it would have been your policy, once 17 you receive such a command, to have immediately 18 deactivated -- deactivate your lights? 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: And is it not fair to say, sir, that 21 deactivating your lights would have sent a signal to the 22 driver being pursued that the officers no longer required 23 her to pull over? 24 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Sorry, 25 Commissioner, my one (1) problem with that is that it --


1 I have a little bit of a difficulty with asking this 2 officer to assume what the driver of another vehicle 3 would have in their -- in their mind. 4 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I didn't ask 5 what was -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- in the driver's 8 mind I -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I'm sorry 10 I -- 11 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- asked whether -- 12 did he not agree that that would send a signal to the 13 person driving the vehicle being pursued that they no 14 longer needed to be -- that they no longer needed to pull 15 over. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 17 didn't get the question. Could you ask the question 18 again please? 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 21 Q: You testified that your lights were 22 activated at some point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Would you not agree that by turning 25 off your lights that that would send a signal to this


1 person you were following that the -- the vehicle that 2 was being pursued, that they didn't have to pull over? 3 A: If the lights were deactivated, yes, 4 that would confuse the driver. 5 Q: Of course. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Is that good? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 12 Q: Now, prior -- prior to the pursuit 13 beginning you've described to us that you could see some 14 vehicles that were driving on the roadway inside the Army 15 Camp? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you also said that it was -- it 18 was dark at that time? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that you couldn't describe any of 21 the vehicles that you saw? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And you saw more than one (1) 24 vehicle? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Okay. And how many vehicles did you 2 see? 3 A: I don't remember an exact number. 4 Q: Okay. Was it more than five (5)? 5 A: I -- I couldn't say for sure. 6 Q: And were they close together? 7 A: I don't remember that either. 8 Q: But you couldn't have kept your eye 9 on all of those vehicles simultaneously to see where they 10 went, right? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And from your checkpoint were you 13 also able to see that there were some vehicles that were 14 parked at the entrance of the Army Camp? 15 A: I don't remember if there were 16 vehicles there or not. 17 Q: And then you saw the vehicle, that 18 you since learned was being driven by Ms. Simon, you saw 19 it leave the Army Camp? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you can't be sure that this was 22 one (1) of the vehicles that you saw driving up the road 23 inside the Army Camp, correct? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And is it fair to say that you


1 believed at the time that the reason the vehicle was 2 being pursued was because of a possible connection with 3 the shots that you had heard over the radio? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And that was the only reason that it 6 was being pursued as far as you were aware? 7 A: As far as I was aware. 8 Q: And you had absolutely no knowledge 9 at that time of the circumstances of the shooting that 10 you had heard? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And you had no knowledge that this 13 vehicle was involved in that incident? 14 A: I just assumed that's where it was 15 coming from. 16 Q: Right, that was an assumption that 17 you made? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you understood that the Park and 20 the sandy parking lot area was two (2) to three (3) -- 21 sorry, 3 to 4 kilometres down the road? 22 A: That's -- that possible distance, 23 yes. 24 Q: And how long did it take you to go 25 from that checkpoint, Checkpoint 'D', to the restaurant


1 in Northville? 2 A: It would have been maybe just a few 3 minutes. 4 Q: And during that time you could have 5 radioed in using your radio to find out whether a car 6 such as the one you were pursing was suspected of being 7 involved in the shooting incident you had heard? 8 A: I didn't have any of the information 9 on the vehicle. 10 Q: That's right, but you didn't seek any 11 information about that vehicle, correct? 12 A: From -- from my viewpoint we were 13 behind the pursuing cruiser, and so I -- I couldn't 14 exactly see what the car was doing. 15 Q: So in your view then would it have 16 been the responsibility of the lead vehicle to have 17 initiated -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- those inquiries? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you're not aware that they did? 22 A: Well, they would have had the 23 information as far as the description of the car they 24 were pursuing. I don't know what they did with that 25 information.


1 Q: Okay. You don't have any information 2 that they called in a description and asked to find out 3 if there was a link between that vehicle and the 4 shooting? 5 A: I don't recall what information they 6 -- they sent over the radio. 7 Q: So it is it fair to say then, 8 Sergeant, that the only thing Ms. Simon did wrong was she 9 failed to stop for the police while you were pursuing her 10 that night? 11 A: That I observed, yes. 12 Q: And on what grounds -- what grounds 13 did you have for asking her to stop in the first place? 14 A: Under the Highway Traffic Act, 15 there's a section in there for failing to stop for 16 police, and that's what I believe we were acting on when 17 she was arrested. 18 Q: But what grounds did you have to ask 19 her to stop in the first place? 20 A: Under the Highway Traffic Act, we 21 have provisions in there to stop motor vehicles for 22 certain reasons, one (1) of them being to ensure that the 23 driver is properly licenced, also to check for driver 24 sobriety. 25 Q: Are you suggesting, sir, that that


1 was one (1) of the reasons you were pursuing Ms. Simon 2 was to check if she was -- check for sobriety and to 3 check that she was properly licenced? 4 A: I'm not sure. 5 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Sir -- 6 Commissioner, Sergeant Dougan's evidence is that he's not 7 in the car that actually initiated the pursuit. He is 8 acting in a back up capacity in relation to that car, so, 9 I don't -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, 11 that's -- 12 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: -- I don't think 13 that these questions are properly directed at -- at this 14 Witness. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may be 16 right, but he didn't make the decision to pursue Ms. 17 Simon. 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Fair enough, but I 19 had asked this witness what Ms. Simon had done wrong that 20 night. He's told me that it was -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- his -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- her failure to 25 stop for police and I'm trying to understand --


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As far as he 2 was concerned. 3 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- on what grounds 4 he -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So far as he 6 was concerned. 7 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: So far as he was 8 concerned, what grounds he had to stop her in the first 9 place. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 11 not sure if he was the one who stopped her. 12 THE WITNESS: I wasn't the one that 13 stopped them, so. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 16 Q: Okay, did you have any -- in your 17 mind, at the time, I'm asking -- I'm not asking you to 18 read anybody else's mind. 19 In your mind, you've told us that your 20 understanding was that the reason that she was being 21 pursued was because of possible connections she may have 22 had with the shooting you heard over the radio. 23 A: That was one (1) of the things I 24 thought was going on, yes. 25 Q: Okay.


1 A: But I'm just -- I was providing 2 backup for the other officers. 3 Q: I understand you were providing -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- back up. But in your mind, then, 6 you believed that those were sufficient grounds for you 7 to pursue and stop that vehicle? 8 A: I was assuming that's what the other 9 officers were stopping the vehicle for. 10 Q: Okay. And assuming that that was so, 11 that they had the authority to stop a vehicle for that 12 purpose. 13 A: Yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: But she was -- she was never 18 ultimately charged with failing to stop for police, 19 correct? 20 A: I don't know. 21 Q: You don't know? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Did you make any enquiries as to what 24 had happened with her after you dropped her off at the 25 prisoner van?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Now, you've described the scene at 3 Northville, and you've described the lighting as poor? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is it not the case that you had your 6 headlights on, pointed in the direction of the phone 7 booth? 8 A: Still, the lighting is poor there. 9 Q: Okay. Your headlights were pointed 10 at the phone booth? 11 A: I don't remember where our lights 12 were pointed. I was assume it was on the car. 13 Q: Okay. We heard evidence from your 14 partner that evening, Officer Gransden, who described the 15 lighting as well, and he said that the cruiser 16 headlights, from both vehicles, were pointed -- were 17 lighting up the area. 18 Would you agree with that? 19 A: I'm just telling you what I saw, that 20 I -- from my perspective, the lighting was poor at that 21 location. 22 Q: You had the option of using your 23 headlights to light up the area? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You were concerned that the people in


1 the vehicle were armed? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Are you saying that you didn't use -- 4 employ your headlights in those circumstances, to light 5 up the area? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Now, Ms. Simon was in the phone 8 booth, you saw her make a phone call? 9 A: I saw her in the phone booth and I 10 assumed that's what she was doing. 11 Q: Okay. But you saw her -- she was 12 holding on to a telephone receiver? 13 A: I couldn't see that, no. 14 Q: Couldn't see that. And at one point, 15 you heard on the tape, you heard her -- her yelling, "I'm 16 just making a phone call"? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And she was leaning out of the -- if 19 you can turn your mind back to that night, do you recall 20 she was leaning out of the phone booth as she said that? 21 A: I could only hear her saying that. I 22 couldn't see what she was actually doing. 23 Q: Okay, was there something that was 24 blocking your view? 25 A: As I said, the lighting wasn't --


1 wasn't good and I was watching the passenger as well. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now -- and it was your partner, 6 Officer Gransden, who ultimately got her out of the phone 7 booth, correct? 8 A: I don't remember who actually got her 9 out. 10 Q: Okay. Did you observe Officer 11 Gransden approach Ms. Simon while she was in the phone 12 booth? 13 A: I don't remember that, no. 14 Q: Okay. Do you remember he had his 15 pistol drawn? 16 A: I don't remember. 17 Q: He pulled her out of the phone booth? 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: And the fact that you have -- you 20 seem to have very little recollection of exactly how Ms. 21 Simon came out of the phone booth; is that because you 22 were observing Melva George? 23 A: I was kind of -- I was providing 24 coverage, so I was watching what the passenger was doing. 25 So I was switching back and forth.


1 Q: And you know now that Melva George 2 was the mother of Marcia Simon? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you knew that that evening? 5 A: No. 6 Q: When did you learn that? 7 A: I -- I don't know when I first 8 learned about it. 9 Q: Now when the -- Ms. Simon's vehicle 10 pulled into the -- the parking lot, she pulled up to the 11 pay phone, both occupants got out of the vehicle at that 12 time; is not the case? 13 A: I don't remember it that way, no. 14 Q: Okay. Can I turn you to your notes? 15 These are at Tab 7 of the Commission brief, it's your 16 page 53. If it's easier for you, you can look at your 17 original notes. 18 Okay. Now your reading is a bit difficult 19 but it appears to me that it says: 20 "Motor vehicle stopped at restaurant in 21 Northville." 22 Do you see where I am? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: "Occupants got out and driver went to 25 the pay phone."


1 A: Okay. 2 Q: And you made those notes, you said, 3 shortly after this incident occurred? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And your notes would seem to indicate 6 that Ms. Melva George got out of her vehicle at the same 7 time as Ms. Simon. 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And does that assist you to recall 10 that that was the sequence of events? 11 A: But as far as going to the payphone, 12 my understanding it was only Marcia that went to the 13 payphone. 14 Q: That's right. Both occupants got out 15 of the vehicle -- 16 A: Right. 17 Q: -- and Ms. Simon proceeded to the 18 payphone. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Now you may -- did you hear in the 23 recording that was played to you, right near the very end 24 you can hear a female voice saying, Leave her alone. 25 Did you hear that?


1 A: I didn't hear that, no. 2 Q: Commission counsel are going to help 3 me by playing a portion of P-48 again. And if you could 4 listen, near the end I think you'll hear a female voice. 5 A: Okay. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 8 9 TAPE-RECORDED MESSAGE 911 CALL 10 OPERATOR: Police, Fire and Ambulance. 11 CALLER: Send an ambulance down to Stoney Point, we 12 got two guys down, two guys shot. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 17 18 TAPE-RECORDED MESSAGE 911 CALL 19 OPERATOR: Police, Fire and Ambulance. 20 CALLER: Send an ambulance down to Stoney Point, we 21 got two guys down, two guys shot. 22 OPERATOR: Okay, I'm going to patch you through, okay 23 sir. 24 AMBULANCE: Ambulance. 25 OPERATOR: Hello are you there.


1 AMBULANCE: I'm here ma'am. 2 OPERATOR: No that's me, it's Terry. 3 AMBULANCE: Who's Terry. 4 OPERATOR: From the police. 5 AMBULANCE: Sorry, okay. 6 OPERATOR: I just got some guy that said they had two 7 people shot down at Stoney Point, and they 8 wanted an ambulance. 9 AMBULANCE: Stoney or Ipperwash there. 10 OPERATOR: All he said was Stoney Point. Did you, 11 did you guys already get a call on that. 12 AMBULANCE: Yea, we've got two ambulances on 13 (inaudible) down there. 14 15 911 CALL 16 -2- 17 OPERATOR: You do. 18 AMBULANCE: Hang on there Terry. 19 OPERATOR: Okay. 20 AMBULANCE: Terry... 21 OPERATOR: Hi... 22 AMBULANCE: They're calling in from 9780 Army Camp 23 Road, right. 24 OPERATOR: Yep, that's what I've here too, he must 25 have hung up.


1 AMBULANCE: Okay, I've got a Sergeant on the line here 2 anyway. 3 OPERATOR: Are they needed. 4 AMBULANCE: We've got two ambulances right there now. 5 OPERATOR: Are they Natives, Jeff, or are they Police 6 Officers. 7 AMBULANCE: Oh I don't know. I've got to go. 8 OPERATOR: Okay, okay, bye now. 9 OPERATOR: Police, Fire and Ambulance. 10 11 911 CALL 12 -3- 13 CALLER: (in the background) don't make a move 14 lady. 15 I'm just talking on the phone, get the gun 16 out of here. 17 OPERATOR: Do you need the police, fire or ambulance. 18 CALLER: Ambulance. 19 OPERATOR: Okay, I'm going to patch you through, 20 okay. 21 OPERATOR: Okay, what's your address there. 22 (in the background) get on the ground. 23 What's your address. 24 Okay this is the operator you're talking 25 to now.


1 OPERATOR: What is the address there, do you know. 2 OPERATOR(1): I don't know, I've only got a phone number 3 OPERATOR: Alright what's the phone number. 4 OPERATOR(1): It's 243-8953. 5 AMBULANCE: There's ambulance there now, and another 6 ones been called. 7 OPERATOR: Okay. 8 AMBULANCE: Hello, who's this. 9 10 911 CALL 11 -4- 12 OPERATOR: You're talking to the operator... 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 17 Q: Did you hear it? At -- near the end, 18 there was a female voice yelling -- 19 A: I could hear -- yeah, I could hear a 20 female voice at the end, I just couldn't understand what 21 they were saying. 22 Q: You didn't understand what they were 23 saying? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. We'll try it one more time.


1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 2 3 OPERATOR: You're talking to the operator now. 4 AMBULANCE: Okay from where. 5 OPERATOR: I'm in Windsor... 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED) 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT TO FOLLOW) 10 11 OPERATOR: Okay, what's your address there. 12 (in the background) get on the ground. 13 What's your address. 14 Okay this is the operator you're talking 15 to now. 16 OPERATOR: What is the address there, do you know. 17 OPERATOR(1): I don't know, I've only got a phone number 18 OPERATOR: Alright what's the phone number. 19 OPERATOR(1): It's 243-8953. 20 AMBULANCE: There's ambulance there now, and another 21 ones been called. 22 OPERATOR: Okay. 23 AMBULANCE: Hello, who's this. 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE STOPPED)


1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 3 Q: Did you hear it that time, sir? 4 A: I did hear that, yeah. 5 Q: Okay. So you heard a female voice 6 saying, "Leave her alone?" 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And can you assist us whether 9 that was Ms. Simon or Ms. George? 10 A: I -- I don't know who that would be. 11 Q: Okay. Do you recall now, does this 12 help to refresh your memory that one of the women was 13 yelling, "Leave her alone?" 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And having used this to assist 16 your memory, can you remember which of the women was 17 yelling, "Leave her alone?" 18 A: I don't know who was saying that. 19 Q: Now you've told us that you weren't 20 concerned about Melva George, once you had -- once you 21 saw who she was. 22 A: I -- I don't -- 23 Q: Not that you used those words, but -- 24 A: -- I don't recall any -- any concerns 25 I


1 had, no. 2 Q: Your concern was with the driver? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So I take it you weren't concerned 5 that the passenger, Melva George, was involved in the 6 shooting? 7 A: I was concerned about the officer 8 safety at the scene when we had them stopped, and because 9 the passenger wasn't giving anyone a hard time, that's 10 what I was concerned about. 11 Q: Okay. But when you were -- when you 12 began to participate in the pursuit -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- you understood that one of the 15 reasons was that there was a possibility that the 16 occupants of the vehicle were involved in the shooting. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I take it you no longer had that 19 concern with respect to Melva George, once you saw that 20 she was an elderly woman? 21 A: I really didn't know what was going 22 on at the time. That was one of the reasons why we were 23 pursuing the vehicle, was a concern for -- were they 24 involved in the shooting. but once we got the vehicle 25 stopped and we were trying to arrest the occupants and


1 secure the situation my only concern was officer safety 2 at the scene. 3 Q: Okay. And you checked the vehicle 4 and found there were no weapons? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there were no weapons found on 7 either Ms. Simon or Ms. George? 8 A: None that I'm aware of. 9 Q: And you had no concerns that Melva 10 George was involved in the shooting? 11 A: At that time I don't know. 12 Q: And did you have a concern that Ms. 13 Simon was involved in the shooting? 14 A: I didn't know. 15 Q: Okay. Well, why didn't you let her 16 go at that point, Ms. Simon that is? 17 A: I wasn't the arresting officer. 18 Q: I see. Your partner was? 19 A: Yes. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 24 Jones? 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I


1 think it's important to put the evidence to this Witness; 2 and what Officer Gransden said was that Officer Lorch was 3 the arresting officer. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 6 Q: I had understood that both Officer 7 Gransden and Officer Lorch participated in the arrest. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Ms. Simon was placed in your vehicle? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you and your partner were 12 responsible for transporting her to the prisoner van? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So you must have had a conversation 15 with your partner about why it was that Ms. Simon wasn't 16 simply being let go? 17 A: None that I remember, no. 18 Q: You don't remember that? 19 A: No. 20 Q: In your mind what -- what was your 21 understanding of why she was being taken to be -- to a 22 prisoner van rather than being let go? 23 A: Well, she failed to stop for police 24 so I assumed that was the reason why the arrest was being 25 continued.


1 Q: Okay. So your understanding was that 2 the reason for continuing the arrest was because of 3 concerns that she had failed to stop for police? 4 A: Yes, and the officers were going to 5 continue their investigation. 6 Q: Continue the investigation of what? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: Now, you had her name at this point? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you had her identification? 11 A: I didn't, no. 12 Q: All right. You were aware of her 13 address? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Was she asked for her address? 16 A: I don't know. I was providing 17 assistance in transporting a prisoner. 18 Q: Now, the vehicle was left behind in a 19 parking lot? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Did -- did you check to make sure 22 that it was locked and secured before you left the 23 parking lot? 24 A: No, I didn't. 25 Q: Did any other officer do so?


1 A: I don't know. 2 Q: Do you know where the keys were? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: And what investigation did you 5 undertake following the transport of Ms. Simon to the 6 prisoner van to determine what, if any involvement she 7 had in any offence? 8 A: I wasn't the investigation officer so 9 I didn't pursue it any further. 10 Q: Are you aware of any other officer 11 that carried out any investigation? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Are you aware -- aware of whether any 14 instructions were given to anyone to make sure to conduct 15 an investigation? 16 A: I wasn't aware, no. 17 Q: Now, you did become aware at some 18 point that Ms. Simon's goal had been to get an ambulance 19 for someone that was shot? 20 A: Afterwards, yes. 21 Q: And can you -- can you assist me with 22 when you became aware of that fact? 23 A: Well, from my notes it was probably 24 in the ride from Northville back to the prisoner van. 25 Q: Okay. While -- while she was being


1 transported to the prisoner van? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 4 didn't take any steps to ensure that an ambulance was 5 called? 6 A: As I said before there was radio 7 traffic indicating there was an ambulance and so I -- no, 8 I didn't call one because there was already one being 9 called. 10 Q: Okay. You also said that you didn't 11 know where the ambulances were? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And at that time were your superior 14 officers aware that a First Nation person had been shot? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 16 how he can answer that, what's in -- 17 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Were you aware 18 whether -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Ms. 20 Esmonde. 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: -- that was -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 23 how he can answer that. 24 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I understand the 25 objection. I'll -- I'll rephrase question.


1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 3 Q: Were you aware whether your superior 4 officers were aware that a First Nation person had been 5 shot? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 7 that's the same question, isn't it? 8 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well, I don't 9 understand why he can't answer that question. 10 THE WITNESS: Because I wasn't aware. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 12 the same question, isn't it? Were you aware of what they 13 were aware of? 14 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Well he could have 15 been made aware by direct communication from them, by 16 hearing radio transmissions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Okay. 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I'm not asking for 19 what was in their mind but what -- from what he was 20 observing and what he was hearing, whether he was aware. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That they 22 were aware. 23 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: That they were 24 aware. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right.


1 Let's see if he can answer that. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I was aware 3 of who was shot at that point. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 6 Q: Did you radio into the mobile command 7 unit or -- or to any of your superior officers, to advise 8 them of what Ms. Simon had told you? 9 A: There was already enough radio 10 traffic, and no, I didn't. 11 Q: You didn't think that was important 12 information to relay? 13 A: I -- like I said, there was already 14 talk on the radio of ambulances being dispatched, so I -- 15 I didn't, no. 16 Q: Now you're required to complete a use 17 of force report anytime you un-holster your firearm; is 18 that correct? 19 A: Certain circumstances we're suppose 20 to use -- or submit a use of force report. 21 Q: Okay. And in the circumstances that 22 you've described to us in the parking lot at Northville, 23 those are the kind of circumstances in which you would be 24 required to complete a use of force report? 25 A: Yes, that's correct.


1 Q: And did you complete a use of force 2 report? 3 A: I don't remember off hand whether one 4 was completed or not. 5 Q: Now turning to the picnic table 6 incident, as we've come to call it here, on the evening 7 of September 5th. Now you told us that when you arrived 8 the picnic tables were blocking the road and there were 9 Stoney -- there were people -- First Nations people in 10 the sandy parking lot. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And some of them were sitting on the 13 picnic tables? 14 A: I don't remember off hand if they 15 were actually seated at the picnic tables or they were 16 just standing around. I'm not sure. 17 Q: Okay. But they were close to the 18 picnic tables? 19 A: Yes. Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And the picnic tables, were they set 21 up in a line? 22 A: They were scattered across the -- the 23 access to the beach. 24 Q: Okay. So when you say they were 25 scattered across, they weren't kind of nose to nose


1 touching each other? 2 A: Some of them could have been, yes. 3 Q: Some of them could have, but there 4 were gaps between others? 5 A: I don't know about gaps. I just -- I 6 just know that they were blocking the access. 7 Q: And was it a single line of picnic 8 tables or were they stacked one on top of another? 9 A: I don't recall -- I don't remember 10 how they were configured. 11 Q: Okay. Do you remember if there were 12 picnic tables stacked ten (10) feet high? 13 A: Ten (10) feet high? No, I don't 14 think so. 15 Q: Yeah. That -- that doesn't seem 16 likely. 17 A: It doesn't sound credible, no. 18 Q: Okay. Now you said you don't recall 19 any cruiser making contact with the picnic tables; do you 20 recall, when you arrived, that there was a cruiser in 21 amongst the picnic tables? 22 A: I know there was another unit at the 23 scene, but I don't remember exactly where that cruiser 24 was. 25 Q: And it was Constable Whelan's cruiser


1 that was at the scene when you arrived? 2 A: Constable Whelan, I believe, yes. 3 Q: At any point did you see any picnic 4 tables being thrown on cruisers? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Now you said that there was shouting 7 back and forth. I take it then that Stoney Pointers were 8 yelling at officers and officers were yelling back. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the Stoney Pointers were yelling 11 that, amongst other things, that the sandy parking lot 12 area was their land? 13 A: It was hard to make out exactly what 14 was being said because there was a lot of yelling. So I 15 don't remember that. 16 Q: Okay. So it was very loud. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you couldn't hear everything that 19 was being said? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And what were the OPP officers 22 yelling back, that you could hear? 23 A: We were trying to instruct them to 24 get off of the sandy beach access. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now we also understand that of the 4 officers there, all of the officers were constables. 5 Does that accord with your memory? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So there was no superior officer who 8 was in charge and directing the operation in the sandy 9 parking lot? 10 A: Not that I remember. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And that evening you would have known 15 Dudley George by sight, I take it? 16 A: I'd only seen him a few times, so 17 yes. 18 Q: Yeah. You had seen him as early as 19 the day before? 20 A: Yes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Did you see -- you said that you 25 didn't see anybody throw sand in Officer Gransden's face.


1 2 Did you see sand being thrown in any other 3 officer's face? 4 A: I didn't see that, no. 5 Q: Did you see any other officers with 6 pepper spray in their hands? 7 A: I did not. 8 Q: Did you have pepper spray out? 9 A: I -- it was on my belt. 10 Q: Was it -- but did you have it -- 11 okay, it was on your belt. 12 And you didn't see any officer with pepper 13 spray in their hands? 14 A: No, I didn't. 15 Q: Now, when you went back to your 16 cruiser and left the scene, you were with Officer 17 Gransden? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And did he not tell you that he had 20 discharged his pepper spray? 21 A: I don't remember that incident at 22 all. 23 Q: You don't -- you don't remember him 24 saying that to you at all? 25 A: No.


1 Q: You understand there's a distinction 2 between not remembering or saying that it didn't occur? 3 A: I would have noted it if I -- if I'd 4 seen it. And I don't remember him actually saying 5 anything when we get back to the car. 6 Q: And your vehicle was one of the 7 vehicles that was damaged? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: How many other vehicles were damaged 10 that evening, during that incident? 11 A: I don't know an exact number. 12 Q: Is it fair to say you're not aware of 13 any other incident that occurred that evening that 14 resulted in damage to cruisers? 15 A: That's the only one I'm aware of. 16 Q: Did you ever see -- was there a fire 17 in the sandy parking lot when you arrived there? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Now the next morning you had a 20 debriefing? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And would that have been with


1 Sergeant Korosec? 2 A: Yes, it was. 3 Q: And I take it there would have been 4 discussion about this incident that you -- the picnic 5 tables incident, during that debriefing? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Can -- turning your mind back, can 8 you recall now whether any of the officers who took part 9 in that debriefing advised Sergeant Korosec that a 10 cruiser had been used to move picnic tables? 11 A: I only remember the instructions that 12 we received. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Oh, and I remember the instructions 17 we received to go back and remove the picnic tables. 18 Q: Okay. Do you recall if the use of 19 pepper spray was discussed during that debriefing? 20 A: I don't recall that. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Thank you, Sergeant, those are my 25 questions.


1 Thank you Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Ms. Esmonde. 4 Mr. Alexander...? 5 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 7 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant Dougan. 8 A: Good afternoon. 9 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I'm 10 one of the lawyers for the Estate of Dudley George and 11 several members of the George family, including Sam 12 George who's sitting here beside you -- beside me, I 13 should say. 14 And I just have a few areas I'd like to 15 canvass with you. 16 To start off with, I have some questions 17 about burial grounds in the Park. First off, were you 18 aware of any claims regarding burial grounds in the Park? 19 A: Not prior to the -- the incident. 20 Q: When did you become aware of the 21 claim of burial grounds in the Park? 22 A: It would have been after -- after 23 September 6th. I don't know when it was. 24 Q: But prior to September 6th, no one 25 told you anything about it?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And it didn't come up in any of your 3 briefings? 4 A: Not that I remember, no. 5 Q: And the people who would have been 6 giving you those briefings would have included now- 7 Inspector Wright, Deputy Commissioner Carson, Officer 8 Korosec. 9 Is there anybody else who I've missed who 10 would be giving you those briefings at that time? 11 A: Those would be the main officers that 12 would have given the briefings. 13 Q: I'd like to turn your mind now to the 14 morning of September 6th. As I understand your evidence 15 you were present during the removal of the picnic tables 16 at the sandy parking lot. 17 Do you recall giving that evidence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: It's a very simple question. We've 20 had an exhibit tendered here, Exhibit P-66, which appears 21 to show some video footage before the picnic tables were 22 -- were removed and after the picnic tables were removed. 23 And I was just curious, do you recall 24 anybody videotaping the actual removal of the picnic 25 tables that morning?


1 A: I don't remember offhand, no. 2 Q: Do you recall any other OPP 3 operations that you were involved in with respect to 4 Ipperwash Park during the September 4th to 6th period and 5 any videotaping of anything? 6 A: No. 7 Q: On a different note the other thing I 8 wanted to ask you about is was -- when I was looking 9 through your notes I noticed you referred to the OPP Who 10 car and Dudley George's car interchangeably; is that 11 fair? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, I'm just a -- a little bit 14 curious as to how did it -- how did that car come to be 15 known as Dudley George's car? 16 A: I -- I can't say offhand. I would be 17 saying that it was probably from a briefing or from other 18 officers. 19 Q: So it would have been another officer 20 who told you most likely that that's known as Dudley 21 George's car? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Now, I'm going to turn -- turn your 24 mind a little bit further back and go to the afternoon of 25 September the 4th around 4:07, 16:07 in 24:00 hour time.


1 And I'm referring to the incident at the 2 north end of Matheson Drive. And I believe that you 3 testified that you never saw any weapons aside from -- 4 aside from those on the officers, correct? 5 A: That's correct, yes. 6 Q: And nobody told you about any weapons 7 on anybody else aside from those that you saw on the 8 officers, correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And it would have been potentially 11 very important for you to be aware if anybody had seen 12 any weapons aside from those on the officers due to your 13 policing duties at that particular time as well as 14 officer safety, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Finally, Ms. Tuck-Jackson asked you a 17 couple of questions regarding firecrackers and you 18 testified that you didn't see, hear, or were aware of 19 firecrackers that were set off in the Camp or Park during 20 the period in question which would be September 4th to 21 6th. 22 Does that sound familiar? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, we've heard evidence that there 25 were firecrackers in the Park and the Camp and I just


1 want to check with you that you don't take issue with 2 that evidence. 3 You're just not aware of hearing 4 firecrackers or seeing it or being told anything along 5 those lines? 6 A: I wasn't aware of any firecrackers, 7 no. 8 Q: But you don't take issue with the 9 evidence, just that you're not aware of it? 10 A: I'm not aware of it, no. 11 Q: Thank you, Sergeant Dougan, those are 12 my questions. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. I think we'll take an afternoon break now. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 16 for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 3:15 p.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 3:37 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed, please be seated. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 24 afternoon, Mr. Neil. 25 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Good afternoon,


1 Commissioner. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CAMERON NEIL. 4 Q: Good afternoon, Sergeant. 5 A: Good afternoon. 6 Q: My name is Cam Neil. I -- I'm one of 7 the lawyers for the Residents of Aazhoodena, also known 8 as Stoney Pointers. 9 If I could first take you to Tab 1 of your 10 Book of documents, which is Exhibit P-1260, which I 11 believe is your resume, or your CV; is that correct? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: To start off, I'm interested in your 14 role as a Crowd Management Team member. And I understand 15 from your evidence that that role changed over the years? 16 A: I -- well a Crowd Management Team 17 member -- 18 Q: To -- 19 A: -- to the ERT? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: To ERT. Yes, it did. 22 Q: When you were in the Crowd Management 23 Team, one of your duties, I take it, was to form crowd 24 management formations? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: Were you aware of a standard 2 operating procedure, when in that formation, to yell 3 back, back, back, to the people you were approaching? 4 A: Back when it was a Crowd Management 5 Team they used a totally different philosophy and used 6 different techniques for dealing with crowds than they do 7 with ERT. 8 Q: And I take it, then, that in the -- 9 the Crowd Management era, the protocol was not to yell 10 back, back, back, when approaching a crowd? 11 A: I don't remember exactly what -- that 12 was quite a few years ago, so I don't remember what -- 13 Q: You don't remember? 14 A: No. 15 Q: What about when you became a member 16 of -- of ERT, was that standard operating procedure? 17 A: That would be part of it, yes. 18 Q: What else would it entail, generally 19 speaking? 20 A: There was certain methods used in 21 dealing with crowds, different formations. 22 Q: One of the things you could do was 23 engage in what's called 'shield chatter'; is that 24 correct? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And the purpose of shield chatter is 2 to what? 3 A: Is get the attention of the crowd. 4 Q: And another tool for the ERT team, in 5 that kind of a formation, that CMU formation, would be to 6 yell back, back, back? Was that your understanding? 7 A: I can't remember if that was used or 8 not. 9 Q: You can't recall if that was ever 10 taught to you that that was one of the tools that could 11 be used? 12 A: I don't remember, as an ERT member, 13 if that was our technique or not. 14 Q: And you also don't remember if that 15 was part of the CMU? 16 A: It sounds familiar, but I don't 17 remember if it was when it was Crowd Management or when 18 it was ERT, that we used that -- that language. 19 Q: And did you ever have occasion to be 20 part of an ERT or CMU team which did yell, Back, back, 21 back, when engaging a crowd? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Now do I understand your evidence 24 correctly, that you first had experience with the Kettle 25 and Stony Point First Nation back in February of 1995,


1 with the incident involving someone who had blockaded 2 themself in a residence? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That was your first involvement? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Had you had any involvement with Mark 7 Wright prior to that incident? 8 A: Involvement with Mark Wright? 9 Q: As your superior officer. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you know where he got the nickname 12 'popcorn?' 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: Did you ever refer to him as popcorn? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you ever refer to him as Mouse? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Do you know how he got the nickname, 19 Mouse? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: While under Mark Wright's 22 supervision, did you know him to curse and swear in your 23 presence? 24 A: I can't think of any incident off 25 hand. I'm sure he must have at some point.


1 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I'm sure he would have at some -- in 3 certain situations, but I don't know when that would be. 4 Q: It doesn't strike you as surprising 5 to say that if he did tend to curse, it wouldn't surprise 6 you? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And, in fact, cursing while engaging 9 in your duties as an officer was sort of par for the 10 course, was it not? 11 A: I wouldn't say that, no. 12 Q: Not for you. 13 A: No. 14 Q: For others? 15 A: I can't answer for them. 16 Q: You never heard any cursing or 17 swearing while engaged in your duties with your fellow 18 officers? 19 A: For time -- from time to time, yes. 20 Q: Just from time to time? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Sorry? 23 A: I didn't say anything. 24 Q: Just from time to time? 25 A: Yes. Yeah.


1 Q: It wasn't the norm? 2 A: I guess it depends on when you're -- 3 when you're refer -- what instances you're talking about, 4 as far as -- 5 Q: What about the Ipperwash incident? 6 A: No, I don't remember anything there 7 at Ipperwash. 8 Q: You just don't recall? 9 A: I don't remember it, no. 10 Q: If I could take you back to that 11 incident in February of 1995 at Kettle and Stony Point. 12 I take it Mark Wright was one of your 13 supervising officers at that time, for that incident? 14 Do you recall? 15 A: I don't remember Mark being my 16 supervisor, no. 17 Q: What about Dale Linton? 18 A: My supervisor at the time was Stan 19 Korosec. 20 Q: Now I've seen your evidence, and I've 21 seen your notebook, and I take note of the fact that at 22 certain points in time you were aware of at least the 23 names of Judas George, Glenn George, Dudley George and 24 Bert Manning. 25 And I take you through them one by one.


1 Do you call -- do you recall when you first became to 2 know Judas George? 3 A: It would have been during the 4 Ipperwash incident. 5 Q: Does that go for Glenn George as 6 well? 7 A: Yes. I should say not so much for 8 Glenn George, because I would have known of him earlier, 9 before my policing career. 10 Q: Sorry, I didn't hear you. 11 A: I would have known Glenn George, not 12 on a personal basis, but I would have known of him prior 13 to my policing career. 14 Q: Can you give me a rough estimate as 15 to when that would have been? 16 A: Back when I played minor hockey. 17 Q: And Dudley George, did you learn of 18 Dudley George through this incident or did you know him 19 prior? 20 A: During the Ipperwash incident. 21 Q: And does that go for Bert Manning as 22 well? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: Now throughout the months of July and 2 August and into early September, we've heard from you 3 that you were engaged in various patrols of the Ipperwash 4 area, correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: I take it you were aware at the time 7 that there were signs down by the beach to prevent Park 8 users from straying onto the Military side of the beach? 9 Were you aware of those signs? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Were you aware that campers would, 12 from time to time, go onto that portion of the beach, 13 regardless of those signs? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that this sometimes led to 16 confrontations between campers and occupiers of the Base 17 at that time? 18 A: And who are you referring to the 19 occupiers as? 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: Who were the occupiers you're 22 referring to? 23 Q: The Stoney Pointers, generally. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: The people who had taken over the


1 former CFB. 2 A: Yes, I had heard rumours or 3 information on that basis. 4 Q: And I take it you were also aware 5 that the First Nations people, those Stoney Pointers, 6 those occupiers were frustrated with those campers 7 straying onto the Military side of the beach? 8 A: I don't know about that. 9 Q: And if I could go ahead to September 10 the 2nd, 1995, I believe it's page 44 of -- of your 11 notebook, this is an incident involving a car stuck on 12 the Matheson Drive extension on the beach. 13 Are you with me? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And one of the things that you gave 16 in your evidence today, was there was beer being drunk in 17 public and there was -- it was causing a disturbance. 18 And these were two (2) possible charges that you could 19 have laid on the people, drinking and causing what you 20 called to be a disturbance? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the reason for that is because in 23 your view that was public property, correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So I take it then, if it was private


1 property, those charges wouldn't have been available to 2 you? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: A couple days ahead, September 4, 5 1995, this is -- it's particularly 16:08 hours. I have 6 that in my notes as Tab 7, I'm not sure what page it is 7 in your notebook. This is where there was a 8 confrontation, or I shouldn't say a confrontation. 9 My Friend assists me; at page 46 and 47. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Is that where you are right now, sir? 12 A: That's right, yes. 13 Q: There was an interaction, we'll call 14 it, between Judas George and Stan Korosec, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you'd also said that Wade Jacklin 17 was speaking to Stewart George; is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yes. Now, I'm interested in the 20 physical proximity between, in the first case, Judas 21 George and Stan Korosec. Obviously they are speaking 22 face to face, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Would you characterize their 25 interaction as being nose to -- nose to nose?


1 A: They were within an arm's length of 2 each other. 3 Q: Within an arm's length but not -- 4 would you -- would you say that it was not closer than 5 ordinary people talk when they're discussing -- not 6 ordinary people, but people talk when they're ordinarily 7 discussing something. 8 A: I'm not sure how close that would be. 9 Q: Well, let me put it this way, they 10 weren't so close that they could smell each other's 11 breath and things were getting very intense; is that 12 correct? A: Yes. 13 Q: And does that go the same for Officer 14 Jacklin and Stewart George? 15 A: I would say so, yes. 16 Q: They weren't nose to nose in the way 17 that I've just described? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Now, Sergeant, eventually the 20 occupation occurred around September the 4th, later in 21 the day. And I take it you didn't have any briefings 22 prior to your arrival at -- at the Park that had just 23 been occupied? 24 A: No. No, we didn't. 25 Q: Right. But at some point earlier, I


1 believe you've given your evidence that your 2 instructions, generally speaking, were to allow the 3 occupation to happen and an injunction would be sought. 4 A: Yes, that's correct. 5 Q: Right. But you were also told to 6 stay in the Park for the sake of having a police 7 presence, correct? 8 A: Later on we were, yes. 9 Q: Pardon me? 10 A: Later -- later on we were told to do 11 that, yes. 12 Q: That was after the initial occupation 13 or during that initial occupation? 14 A: I think it was during the initial 15 occupation. 16 Q: Leading up to the cruiser being 17 smashed? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: That timeframe? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Now, did you ever come to know that 22 police presence as part of a plan for cohabitation? 23 A: I wasn't aware of that, no. 24 Q: That term cohabitation doesn't mean 25 anything to you?


1 A: No. 2 Q: And at least it doesn't now? 3 A: No. 4 Q: You don't think it did back then? 5 A: No. 6 Q: When that occupation was initially 7 occurring you had already known in your mind that was 8 what taking place was a trespass; am I right, there? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that the police were acting on 11 behalf of the Ministry of Natural Resources? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And as you've testified today, you 14 weren't aware of any issue of a burial ground at that 15 time? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Do you recall being told around this 18 timeframe that what was taking place was not a First 19 Nation issue but strictly a trespass? 20 A: I'm sorry you -- repeat that question 21 please. 22 Q: Do you recall being told, during this 23 time frame of the initial occupation, slightly prior or 24 during, that this was not a First Nations issue; the 25 occupation?


1 A: No, I don't remember that. 2 Q: Part of your mandate at that time 3 though was, if possible, to arrest the occupiers; is that 4 not the case? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Do you recall the importance of the 7 maintenance shed at this time, tactically? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: So you're telling me that you don't 10 recall that it was important to keep control of the 11 maintenance shed? You were never told that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you recall that Les Kobayashi from 14 MNR was at that initial occupation that led up to the 15 window being smashed? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: You don't recall that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: We've had some evidence from Mr. 20 Kobayashi and from My Friends -- I'm referring to October 21 26th, 2005 in cross-examination on page 197. I'm just 22 going to tell you what -- basically what -- what he told 23 us and see if it accords with your recollection. 24 Mr. Kobayashi said that initially people 25 were getting along then it escalated to a confrontational


1 situation. Does that accord with your memory that 2 initially things weren't confrontational? 3 A: No, I -- I don't agree with that. 4 Q: You don't recall that initially the 5 police and the occupiers were milling about fairly 6 peacefully before things started to get heated? 7 A: There was a delay between the time 8 they entered the Park and when things got heated, yes. 9 Q: And do you recall that that delay was 10 about an hour in length? 11 A: That would be about right. 12 Q: And that Mr. Kobayashi, I'm 13 summarizing here, but he also stated that in large part 14 the discussions that ensued involved the occupiers 15 demanding the police to leave the Park. 16 A: I wasn't aware of that. 17 Q: You weren't aware of that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: You weren't aware that the occupiers 20 were making demands for the OPP to leave the Park? 21 A: Just my own personal experience when 22 we were at the front gate and they were telling us to 23 leave. 24 Q: But not in the incident that led up 25 to the window being smashed?


1 A: Well, that's what mean. We were at 2 the front gate -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- that's when the window got 5 smashed. So leading up to that window being smashed, 6 they were telling us to leave. 7 Q: Yes. Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: So we're still on September the 4th. 12 Later that evening, you were involved in the operation to 13 serve the trespass notice? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And prior to that, I believe your 16 evidence is that you had a briefing with -- with Mark 17 Wright and John Carson at 01:25 hours? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you don't recall cohabitation 20 being discussed during that briefing? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, was it your understanding that


1 part of your role was to see what was going on inside 2 that Park during the operation? 3 A: My understanding is we were to 4 maintain a presence in the Park. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And do you know who it was that 9 decided to serve -- to make this attempt at service in 10 the evening? 11 A: No, I don't. 12 Q: Who were you taking instructions from 13 at the time? 14 A: Sergeant Korosec. 15 Q: And do you recall whether they -- the 16 issue was raised as to why don't we wait until the 17 morning? 18 A: What was to wait until morning? 19 Q: To serve the notice. Do you recall 20 anyone raising that issue, why don't we wait until the 21 morning? 22 A: No, I didn't hear -- remember that. 23 Q: You didn't raise that? 24 A: No. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I take it at that point, you're - 4 - you do recall instructions as far as attempting to take 5 back the maintenance shed that night? 6 A: No, I don't remember that. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: If I told you we've heard some 11 evidence that that is the case, would you dispute that 12 fact? 13 A: It'd be the first I've heard of it. 14 Q: The first you've heard of it? 15 A: Yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: You also -- so now we're on to 20 September the 5th, 1995. You attended a briefing at 7:29 21 -- sorry, I believe it's September -- September the 6th 22 at 7:29, were you briefed by Sergeant Korosec? I think 23 that's page 50 of your notes. 24 Do I have that aright? 25 A: I've got it on page 51 at 18:24:


1 "Received a briefing from Sergeant 2 Korosec." 3 Q: So maybe then, it's September the 4 5th? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Okay, so we're still on September the 9 5th, my apologies. Page 50 of your notes. I guess the 10 trouble is, is that that's now the morning of the 6th, 11 right? 12 A: Yeah, that's right. 13 Q: So the note on the previous page said 14 the 5th, but we go past midnight. You're -- you're 15 working the night shift? 16 A: That's right, yes. 17 Q: Okay. During that briefing, do you 18 recall any discussion about amassing an army? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do you recall any discussion about 21 negotiating? 22 A: No, I don't remember that either. 23 Q: And definitely no cohabitation? 24 A: No. 25 Q: What about the objective -- your


1 objective, the OPP's objective now that you were -- the 2 OPP was no longer in the Park; do you recall that? 3 A: My understanding was that -- to deal 4 with it through the Courts. 5 Q: Waiting for an injunction? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what did you understand would 8 happen once you obtained that injunction? 9 A: I wasn't given any instructions on 10 what the procedure would be at that point. 11 Q: Did you discuss it with your fellow 12 OPP members? 13 A: No. 14 Q: The fact that there is this impending 15 injunction? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you have any suspicion as to what 18 it would do? 19 A: No, I'd never dealt with the 20 situation before, so it was new to me. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do you recall being given any 25 instruction as far as not taking too much lip from First


1 Nations people? 2 A: I don't recall that at all. 3 Q: Do you call -- do you recall being 4 told to arrest them if they get pushy? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Do you recall whether you were given 7 the use of a photo album or a photo brief at that time? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Do you recall being given that kind 10 of an album or brief at any time? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Not even while at a checkpoint? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Let's talk about checkpoints for a 15 second. 16 Your checkpoint -- if -- if people were 17 wanting to go to the beach on September the 5 -- the 5th, 18 would they have had to go through your checkpoint? I 19 believe you were at Checkpoint 'A' on September the 5th, 20 at least initially. 21 A: Yeah, and East Parkway Drive. No, if 22 they were coming down Army Camp Road we wouldn't have 23 seen them. 24 Q: Over the course of your manning 25 checkpoints, were you ever at a checkpoint that would


1 have given access to the beach? 2 A: I don't understand what you're 3 saying. 4 Q: I want to know if a checkpoint you 5 manned -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- would have been a checkpoint that 8 people wanting to go to the beach would have to go 9 through? 10 A: No. 11 Q: That never occurred? 12 A: No. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I'm going to move on to the -- what 17 we call the picnic table incident, on the night of 18 September the 5th, not the operation to remove them but 19 the initial -- seeing the initial barricade. 20 Now we've heard some evidence that there 21 were no people really in charge of that situation. 22 Does that accord with your recollection? 23 A: Just the officers that attended the 24 scene. 25 Q: And they were just constables at the


1 time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recall if any of those 4 constables gave a direction to remove those picnic tables 5 from that position? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: Do you -- are aware if anyone called 8 Command to say, Is there something we should be doing? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And you didn't? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And as far as you're aware, your 13 partner didn't at the time? 14 A: As far as I know. 15 Q: I take it none of the officers that 16 were involved said, Well, we're getting an injunction, 17 let's just leave this alone for the time being; that 18 wasn't said? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So eventually you got out of your 21 cruiser, along with the other officers, and your evidence 22 today is that you told the occupiers to leave that area; 23 that's right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Did you tell them, Listen people,


1 just stay in the Park, or words to that effect? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you hear anybody say that to 4 them? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Were you given a directive to tell 7 the occupiers that if they stayed in the Park everything 8 would be okay? 9 A: It doesn't sound familiar to me, no. 10 Q: Would you agree with me that the end 11 result of that was a confrontation? 12 A: Yes, there was. 13 Q: Rocks were thrown? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, you're not aware of pepper spray 16 being deployed at that time by an officer? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Would you consider the deployment of 19 pepper spray to be a physical confrontation, in any 20 event? 21 A: Well the situation with the occupiers 22 yelling at us, and the officers yelling back, was a 23 confrontation in itself. 24 Q: Verbal confrontation? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: I'm pushing you towards physical 2 confrontation. Would you consider the deployment of 3 pepper spray to be part of a physical confrontation? 4 A: Yes. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: If I could quickly take you to your 9 Tab 7, which is your notes, but it's also your statement. 10 On page 4 of your statement; if you could put that in 11 front of you. 12 And perhaps, Commissioner, we could mark 13 that statement as an exhibit. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-1267, Your Honour. Is 15 that the typed portion or both? 16 MR. CAMERON NEIL: I'm just going to 17 refer to the typed. 18 THE REGISTRAR: The typed. 19 MR. CAMERON NEIL: And for the record the 20 Document Number is 2003459. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MR. CAMERON NEIL: Actually we'll make 25 both group -- tender it -- I don't get the opportunity to


1 make too many exhibits, Commissioner. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1267: Document Number 2003459. 5 Typed and handwritten 6 statements fo M.J. Dougan 7 (undated). 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. CAMERON NEIL: 10 Q: So I have you at page 4, the first 11 paragraph, halfway through. I'm just going to read from 12 it: 13 "Advised by Sergeant Korosec to return 14 and clear picnic tables from parking 15 lot. 16 At 8:40 a.m. attended beach access with 17 ERT Number One and Number Two with 18 sticks and shields." 19 Now what I'm interested in getting from 20 you, Officer, is what did you mean by the word 'sticks?' 21 And before you answer that, I think I know the answer. 22 Sticks refer to batons, correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And sticks was a common term, amongst 25 the OPP at that time, and still today, to refer to


1 batons, correct? 2 A: At the time it was, yes. 3 Q: It's not anymore? 4 A: No, it's not the same. Back then it 5 was an actual piece of wood, now it's a metal collapsible 6 baton, so it's -- 7 Q: So what do you call them now? 8 A: ASP baton. 9 Q: But at the time, if I were to refer 10 to, or say to an OPP officer, I'm going to use my stick, 11 he would have no doubt that you were talking about your 12 wooden baton? 13 A: He would know what you meant -- 14 Q: And, in fact, even if he was going to 15 use an ASP, and he called it a stick, you would still 16 know that that's a baton, whether it's wooden or an ASP? 17 A: You would still understand it, yeah. 18 Q: Over the course of this incident, did 19 you come to know any vehicle as the batmobile? 20 A: I do remember the term, yeah. 21 Q: Do you know which vehicle that 22 referred to? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Was it the OPP Who car or did that 25 have its separate name? OPP Who car?


1 A: I -- yeah, I can't remember. 2 Q: You can't help me out there? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Do you recall any incident about the 5 -- the bat mobile on September the 6th getting stuck in 6 the sand, with officers being rushed down to arrest? 7 Do you have any recollection of that? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Over -- over the course of September 10 6th, did you have any occasion to watch news reports on 11 television? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Listen to the radio? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you happen to see any local 16 politicians roaming the area? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Now I've asked you about briefings 19 earlier in the incident. I now want to talk about 20 September the 6th. I have a feeling the answers will be 21 the same, but in your briefing, which was at 6:29 p.m. on 22 September the 6th, I believe it's page 4 of your notes, 23 do I have that right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you recall any instruction to not


1 take too much if the occupiers get lippy? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You don't recall the directive to 4 arrest if they get pushy? 5 A: No, I don't remember that. 6 Q: Do you recall the directive to keep 7 pressing them, let them know we're here? 8 A: No. 9 Q: But that would be consistent with 10 what you understood your direction to be, which was to 11 have a general police presence? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And you understood that you were 14 still acting on behalf of MNR at that time? 15 A: That-- 16 Q: Did that not change? 17 A: That hadn't changed, no. 18 Q: I'm going to go back a second. The 19 idea that you were letting the occupiers know that you're 20 there, that's at least consistent with having a police 21 presence wouldn't you say? 22 A: It would be an end result of our 23 police presence, yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 Q: On September the 6th when you manning 2 your particular checkpoint did you have a sense that 3 things were escalating? 4 A: I had a -- a feeling that things were 5 -- had changed. There was a lot of traffic up and down 6 the Army Base Road. 7 Q: And that was different from -- 8 A: Different -- 9 Q: -- previous in September? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And at one point you changed 12 checkpoints; you were called to assist at a different 13 checkpoint. Do I have that right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you recall who asked you to go 16 down to the other checkpoint? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: My final area, Commissioner, I'm 22 going to want to take you to the -- what I'll call the 23 arrest of Marcia Simon, the evening of September the 6th. 24 That pursuit that you engaged in, the -- 25 we'll call it the low speed pursuit; it wasn't a high --


1 high speed pursuit, that's right? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: Do you recall whether there was any 4 oncoming traffic while you were engaged in that pursuit? 5 A: I don't remember if there was any 6 other traffic. 7 Q: Do you recall whether the option was 8 discussed to overtake the vehicle, in other words pass it 9 on the left? 10 A: No, I don't remember that. 11 Q: And no one made use of that option? 12 A: It's quite possible someone did, yes. 13 Q: But you don't recall? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Thank you, Officer. Thank you, 16 Commissioner. Those are all my questions. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Neil. 19 I think, Mr. George, you don't have any 20 questions? 21 Mr. Roy...? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good


1 afternoon, Mr. Roy. 2 MR. JULIAN ROY: Good afternoon, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 6 Q: Good afternoon, sir. 7 A: Good afternoon. 8 Q: My name is Julian Roy and I'm one (1) 9 of the lawyers for Aboriginal Legal Services Toronto and 10 I have just a few questions for you this afternoon. 11 I want to start by following up on some of 12 the questions that you've already had about the arrest of 13 Marcia Simon on September 6th -- 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: -- and in particular your notebook 16 entries. 17 It -- it's Exhibit 1266, Mr. Commissioner, 18 and the pages that I'm most interested in are pages 53 19 and 54, both for your reference and for the Witness. 20 Now, I believe you've already testified to 21 this but I -- I take it that you -- that the notes that 22 you made regarding the arrest of Ms. Simon, at the time 23 that you took those notes the events were fresh in your 24 mind were they not? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And just generally speaking about how 2 you prepare your notes, you do your best to -- to make 3 sure that your notes are accurate, correct? 4 A: From what I can remember, yes. 5 Q: Yeah. Well, regardless of whether or 6 not you remember it, generally speaking when you make 7 entries in your -- in your memo book you try your best to 8 be accurate, right? 9 A: Sure. 10 Q: Okay. And you do that because you're 11 cognizant as a police officer that you may be called on 12 to testify about the events that are reflected in your 13 notebook perhaps weeks, perhaps months or even years 14 later; is that not correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you used your notes freely during 17 your examination-in-chief earlier today did you not? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And in doing so you didn't develop 20 any concerns about the accuracy of your notes did you? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. Now, I -- I take it that 23 you'd be aware that when it comes to the circumstances 24 surrounding how an arrest is affected, that the issues 25 surrounding an arrest may become contentious in the


1 future in terms of having to testify about those matters 2 in court? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. So when we talk about 5 recording in your memo book about the circumstances 6 surrounding an arrest you would be aware that it would be 7 particularly important to get those facts accurate, 8 right? 9 A: As an any arresting officer, yes, -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: -- I would be very... 12 Q: All right. Or -- or an officer 13 witnessing an arrest by another officer correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Now, Ms. Esmonde who is 16 counsel for, among others, Marcia Simon, took you to a 17 passage at page 53 of your notes where your notes reflect 18 that the occupants got out and driver went to the 19 payphone. 20 Do you see that, about two-thirds (2/3's) 21 of the way down your notebook, entry on page 53? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Yes, I do see it.


1 Q: Are you -- are you with me? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. So we have: 4 "Occupants got out and driver went to 5 the payphone." 6 And then the next line, if I'm not 7 mistaken, reads: 8 "Other cruiser, Ron Bell and Steve 9 Lorch." 10 Is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Could you read the next line for me, 13 please? 14 A: "Long guns were pointed at them while 15 Constable Gransden ordered the driver 16 away from the phone." 17 Q: Okay. If I can just stop you there 18 for a second. Your notes reflect, "long guns pointed at 19 them;" is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And when you used the term "them" you 22 use it in its ordinary meaning, that it means more than 23 one (1) person, right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And there were only two (2) occupants


1 in the vehicle, were there not? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So when your notes reflect that long 4 guns were pointed at "them," what you were recording was 5 that long guns were pointed at both the driver and the 6 passenger, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And your notes refresh 9 your memory about that, right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Now you've already testified 12 that from the time that you laid eyes on the passenger, 13 it was immediately apparent to you that she was a 14 elderly, First Nations woman, correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now after it says, "long guns were 17 pointed at them," right after that it says: 18 "Until P/C Gransden ordered the driver 19 away from the phone." 20 Do you see that? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I've got: 25 "Long guns were pointed at them while


1 Constable Gransden ordered the driver 2 away from the phone." 3 Q: Okay. So that -- you read that as 4 "while?" 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And it took several minutes -- 7 PC Gransden was ordering the driver away from the phone 8 for several minutes, correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So the long guns that were pointed at 11 both the passenger and the driver were pointed for 12 several minutes, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now, your -- your notes here don't 15 reflect any observations about a struggle, on respect to 16 Marcia Simon, do they? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 A: No. 21 Q: Right. And the typed statement that 22 Mr. Neil took you to, they don't reflect any notation 23 regarding a struggle, do they? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And you were later interviewed by the


1 Coroner's Office, by a police officer on behalf of the 2 Coroner's Office, at Tab 8 of your documents; do you see 3 that? 4 A: Where about's on Tab 8. 5 Q: Okay. Tab 8, there's a refer -- 6 there's an interview of you by Detective Armstrong; do 7 you see that? 8 A: I'm looking at it now, yes. 9 Q: Are you there? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And that -- the date of that 12 interview, according to the first line, is March 11th, 13 2003, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the first line -- the first line 16 reflects, or rather the first entry reflects that PC 17 Armstrong, or rather Detective Armstrong, I don't want to 18 demote Detective Armstrong, he is an officer with the 19 Peal Regional Police Homicide Bureau {phonetic), and he's 20 assigned, presently, to the Office of the Chief Coroner; 21 do you see that? 22 A: Yes, I do see that. 23 Q: And you recall giving this interview, 24 right? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And in this interview, you're asked 2 about the incident concerning the take down of Marcia 3 Simon and -- and her mother, correct? 4 A: I'm just looking for it now. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: If you take a look at page 124 and 10 onwards. 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. And you can take a look 13 at this statement and let me know if at any time during 14 the statement you refer to a struggle on the part of 15 Marcia Simon in the course of her arrest. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I'm still looking for where he asked 20 me if there was a struggle or not, 'cause I don't -- I 21 don't remember it. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: For ease of


1 reference, the topic arises on page 5 of that statement, 2 Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: On page 5? 4 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: On page 5. 5 THE WITNESS: All right. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Or 126, is 7 that the same page? 8 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: That is correct. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whereabouts 10 is it? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Whereabouts, 15 so I don't have to read the whole page. 16 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: It's at one (1) 17 question -- it's -- if you -- if you look at Dougan, it's 18 one (1), two (2), the question is -- his answer is three 19 (3) Dougan's down. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2) 21 Dougans down? No, I -- 22 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Three (3) 23 Dougans. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- don't 25 have any of that information. All right.


1 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: "Mr. Armstrong, 2 what action did you take in relation to 3 that vehicle." 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I see 5 it. 6 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: And then there's 7 his answer that follows. 8 THE WITNESS: They asked -- they asked me 9 what I did during the pursuing of the vehicle and I 10 provided cover. But no one asked about the -- how the 11 arrest went or how -- if struggled, or if there was a 12 struggle or anything like that. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. JULIAN ROY: 15 Q: You're not suggesting that the only 16 reason why you didn't tell them is that -- 17 A: I -- I was asking their questions as 18 they -- as they asked me. 19 Q: All right. But in any event in the 20 course of an interview where you're giving evidence or 21 information concerning how that arrest is being affected, 22 you don't mention any struggle; is that correct? 23 A: They asked me what action did you 24 take in relation to that vehicle that you followed out of 25 the Camp.


1 And I responded with we were the second 2 vehicle pursuing after it, it came right up to the 3 restaurant at Northville Road to a payphone. I just 4 provided cover for the officers who were dealing with the 5 occupants of the vehicle. 6 Q: All right. You were doing your best 7 to be forthcoming when you gave this interview, right? 8 A: Sure. Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. Now, in terms of after the 10 arrest, I want to ask you about some of the conversation 11 between you and your partner and the two (2) individuals 12 in the back of your cruiser at -- following the arrest 13 and that would be Marcia Simon and Melva George. 14 And it's on the top of page 54. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: And if you'll look about five (5) 17 lines down, your notes reflect both states: 18 "Someone on the Base had been shot and 19 needed ambulance." 20 Do you see that? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: Now, their suggestion that somebody 23 had been shot, that was consistent with what you'd heard 24 earlier in the night in terms of gunfire, correct? 25 A: That was consistent with -- yeah,


1 just prior to the pursuit, yes. 2 Q: All right. So at the time, you would 3 have made that connection in your mind, correct? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, just in terms of my 6 understanding of how you go about doing your duties. You 7 would be aware that -- that the police officers isn't 8 required to charge and arrest somebody for every offence 9 they see in every circumstances, are they? 10 A: It depends on what type of an 11 offense, but yeah. 12 Q: But you have some discretion in terms 13 of deciding who to charge, correct? 14 A: There is some discretion, yes. 15 Q: Yeah. And given that you -- you'd 16 heard from these two (2) individuals the reason why they 17 failed to stop and that it had some basis in your mind, 18 was there any discussion between you and your partner in 19 terms of reconsidering whether or not an arrest was 20 appropriate in that circumstance? 21 A: In this instance, I don't have any 22 recollection as to why we proceeded to the prisoner van 23 other than we were told to go to the prisoner van. But I 24 don't know who told us to transport her there. 25 Q: All right. But you don't recall any


1 discussion between you and P/C Gransden concerning 2 whether or not it was appropriate to maintaining arrest? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Given the information that -- 5 A: No, that's -- that's right. We -- I 6 don't remember. 7 Q: So Ms. Marcia Simon remained in 8 handcuffs, handcuffed to the rear in the back seat of 9 your vehicle, correct? 10 A: That's correct, yes. 11 Q: And beyond that, she was transferred 12 to a paddy wagon, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now, right after the mention of the - 15 - the -- the ambulance at the top of your notes, there's 16 a reference: 17 "Wouldn't ask our help because we have 18 never helped before." 19 Do you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that's a reference to something 22 that either Marcia Simon or Melva George told you, 23 correct? 24 A: That's right, yes. 25 Q: And I believe your evidence in-chief


1 was that you didn't understand what they were talking 2 about, right? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: Now the 'we' that you have referenced 5 in your notes, I take it you didn't understand that -- 6 that Marcia Simon and Melva George were referring to you 7 personally, were they? 8 A: No. I was -- I assumed that that -- 9 they were referring to police in general because I had 10 never dealt with either one of them before. 11 Q: Yeah. So you took it as a reference 12 to how they feel they were treated by the police 13 generally, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, in terms of your training prior 16 to having this interaction with these two (2) 17 individuals, can you tell me is there -- was there 18 anything in your training that would have alerted you to 19 any difficulties concerning the relationship between 20 First Nations people and the police? 21 A: No. 22 Q: So you wouldn't have been alerted to 23 any problems concerning trust on the part of the 24 community in policing? 25 A: My understanding was there's a


1 certain segment of society that don't trust the police, 2 but that was in general; that's not just First Nations 3 people, that was -- that was any similar group. 4 Q: So you -- in terms of how you 5 understood that issue, you didn't see it as an issue that 6 was specific to First Nations people, did you? 7 A: No, no. 8 Q: I'm not being critical, sir, because 9 you can only do what you're trained to do. 10 A: Sure. 11 Q: Just so you understand the thrust of 12 my questioning. Now -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Leaving aside who's right or wrong 15 when a relationship breaks down between a community and 16 the police, you would agree with me that a lack of trust 17 on the part of the community and policing is -- is -- 18 makes your job a lot more difficult, does it not? 19 A: Sure it does, yeah. 20 Q: And, in fact, a good relationship 21 between the community and the police is essential for the 22 police to do their job properly, correct? 23 A: Absolutely. 24 Q: Now, so what about since the 25 incident, since the incident at Ipperwash, have you


1 received any further training concerning the issue of the 2 relationship between First Nations and the police? 3 A: There was some training, but I'm not 4 sure when exactly that was. 5 Q: All right. And did it -- does it 6 give you assistance in terms of trying to understand what 7 Marcia Simon and Melva George might have been getting at, 8 that night, in the back of the cruiser? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you consider the impact that the 11 interaction that you and your partner and the other two 12 (2) officers had with Marcia Simon? 13 Did you consider the impact that that 14 interaction might have had on her perception of the 15 police? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: I guess it wouldn't help their -- her 20 perception. 21 Q: Yes. On reflection, you understand 22 that now, right? 23 A: Oh, sure. Yeah. 24 Q: Okay. Now, in terms of your -- the - 25 - the various debriefings that you had, after the


1 Ipperwash incident with your superiors, did your 2 superiors ever discuss the issue of trust in the 3 community and perceptions by the community in the context 4 of how this arrest was effected? 5 A: No, it was never ever discussed. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Just a couple of housekeeping 10 matters. I want to direct you to page 45 and 46 of your 11 notes, which again is Exhibit P-1266. 12 And these are your notes of September 3rd, 13 1995. 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: Are you with me? 16 A: Sure. 17 Q: Okay. At the bottom of page 45, 18 there's a notation concerning a second motor vehicle 19 stop. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And if you look, there's a name there 22 which I don't want you to -- to express. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: And there's also an address that I 25 don't want you to express.


1 A: That was at 01:09 hours? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And it's a Forest, Ontario address, 5 correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Do you have any recollection 8 of whether or not that was a First Nations or a non-First 9 Nations person? 10 A: I do believe that was the -- not 11 First Nations person. 12 Q: Okay. So, but you would agree with 13 me that that wasn't a vehicle that you and your partner 14 decided to stop, was it? 15 A: That was a vehicle we found on the 16 side of the road, broken down. 17 Q: All right. You didn't have to stop 18 it, it was already stopped then, right? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Okay. And the two (2) first non- 21 First Nations person who were associated with this 22 vehicle, were both intoxicated, correct? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And you didn't see any other 25 individuals around that vehicle, did you?


1 A: No. 2 Q: I beg your pardon? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right. They weren't charged with 5 impaired driving, or over eighty (80), or anything like 6 that? 7 A: We couldn't establish who was the 8 driver. 9 Q: All right. So you just picked them 10 up and drove them into town, correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I want to ask you about your training 17 concerning use of pepper spray, and I take it that one of 18 the problems in terms of using pepper spray is that when 19 it's deployed it has the ability to affect other people 20 than just the intended -- the person that it's intended 21 to be used against, correct? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And that can go for other civilians 24 who are in the general vicinity but also other police 25 officers, correct?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And in a -- in a situation of a 3 stand-off given that it can affect other police officers 4 it -- it can be -- it can be dangerous to apply pepper 5 spray because it might interfere with other officers' 6 ability to defend themselves, correct? 7 A: It's one (1) of those factors that 8 you take into consideration when you're deploying pepper 9 spray, yes. 10 Q: And that's why when you're about to 11 deploy pepper spray there's some sort of secret signal 12 that's given to alert all the other officers without 13 telling you what the word, the code word, is. 14 I take it there's some sort of secret word 15 that's uttered to alert all the other officers in the 16 vicinity that pepper spray is about to be deployed, 17 correct? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Is -- what -- is there any training, 22 concern of a warning to be given to other officers right 23 before it's about to be deployed? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Now, you've told us that with respect


1 to the mugs and T-shirts -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- that you -- you don't recall 4 participating in any way in the investigation concerning 5 those items; is that correct? 6 A: That's correct, yes. 7 Q: In other words nobody came to you on 8 behalf of the OPP and interviewed you about why you 9 purchased the T-shirt correct? 10 A: They probably weren't aware I even 11 had one. 12 Q: I beg your pardon? 13 A: They probably weren't -- no one was 14 probably aware I had one. 15 Q: Okay. Were you aware that there was 16 an investigation ongoing concerning these t-shirts? 17 A: I had heard at one (1) point there 18 was an investigation, yes. 19 Q: All right. Did you contact anybody 20 to disclose to them your involvement? 21 A: No, I didn't. 22 Q: And why not? 23 A: Because at the time I bought the t- 24 shirt I realized afterwards it wasn't an appropriate 25 thing. I never wore the shirt; I disposed of it.


1 Q: But isn't that an explanation you 2 could have given to the investigators? 3 A: Oh, sure. 4 Q: You chose not to do that? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: If I could have just five (5) seconds 7 to look at my notes? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. JULIAN ROY: Those are my questions. 13 Thank you very much, Mr. Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 15 Mr. Roy. 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: Thank you very much, 17 Officer. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 19 Mr. Roy. 20 Do you have any questions on behalf of the 21 OPPA? 22 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: I do 23 Commissioner. I -- just a matter -- to begin with a 24 matter of housekeeping -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before


1 you start could you give me some indication of how long 2 you might be? 3 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Ten (10) to 4 fifteen (15) minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 The housekeeping matter that you're dealing with is...? 7 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Pardon me? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which is the 9 housekeeping matter? 10 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Sergeant Dougan 11 was referred to the statement that is at Tab 8 of his 12 binder and I'm wondering if that should be made an 13 exhibit. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, it 15 wasn't made an exhibit. 16 MR. JULIAN ROY: I apologise for that. 17 Mr. Commissioner, I -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 You'd better come up, Mr. Roy, I can't hear you. 24 Yes? This -- 25 MR. JULIAN ROY: I was thinking that


1 there might have been -- no, there is only one (1), just 2 the -- the statement to the Coroner's office, that ought 3 to have been made an exhibit and I apologize. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want 5 that an exhibit too? 6 MR. JULIAN ROY: Please. 7 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: That's -- that 8 what that is, P-1268. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. JULIAN ROY: I apologize. 11 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: That's okay. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-1268. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1268? 15 That's fine. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1268: Document Number 5000018. 18 Interview of Const. Dougan by 19 Det. Armstrong, London 20 Police, for the Office of the 21 Chief Coroner, March 11, 22 2003. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 25 Q: Sergeant Dougan, you have given


1 evidence today that towards the latter part of July, 2 specifically July 29th and 30th and then again in early - 3 - throughout August, and in early September you conducted 4 certain patrols of the Ipperwash area, right? 5 A: That's correct, yes. 6 Q: And what time of day were those 7 patrols conducted? 8 A: Night-time. 9 Q: And I take it that those patrols the 10 -- the -- would have taken place when it was dark 11 outside, right? 12 A: Yes, that's right. 13 Q: And would you have been in a position 14 to observe who was driving the vehicle prior to the stop? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And was it your practice -- prior to 17 this incident had you ever worked with Constables 18 Gransden, Lorch, or Bell? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So when you were played the audiotape 21 of Ms. Simon's call to 911, that being Exhibit P-48 are 22 you in a position to accurately identify the voices on 23 that tape? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You were not a member of the Crowd


1 Management Unit on September 6th, 1995, correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And I take it that other than the 4 fact that you were aware that officers had been gathered 5 from your checkpoint at Checkpoint C, you can offer no 6 evidence about what took place with the crowd management 7 unit that evening, right? 8 A: That's correct, yes. 9 Q: My Friend, Ms. Esmonde, was asking 10 you some questions regarding the pursuit of Marcia 11 Simon's vehicle; do you remember that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And she asked you about your 14 recollection of whether the lead vehicle, I'll call it 15 the lead vehicle, that being the vehicle that Constables 16 Lorch and Bell were driving, whether that vehicle had its 17 lights on. 18 Do you remember those questions? 19 A: Yes, I do. 20 Q: And could you please turn to page 53 21 of your notes. This is in Exhibit 1266, Commissioner. 22 And just to assist you, Sergeant, it's -- 23 I'm referring to the top half of the page, say the last 24 five (5) lines before the break, before the page break. 25 A: Okay.


1 Q: Does that help you refresh your 2 memory as to whether the lead vehicle had its lights on? 3 A: Yes. The lead vehicle did have its 4 lights on, according to my notes. 5 Q: Okay. And as a police officer, what 6 is your expectation once you activate your roof lights? 7 A: When we activate our roof lights, 8 it's to indicate to the driver of the other motor vehicle 9 to pull over, and they have a right to do so, by law. 10 Q: An obligation to do so, by law. 11 A: Obligation, yes. 12 Q: And from the time that you observed 13 the lead vehicle with its roof lights on, to the time 14 that the lead vehicle turned its roof lights off, was 15 there sufficient time for the driver to have pulled over? 16 A: Definitely. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 18 there's an objection. 19 MR. CAMERON NEIL: I believe his evidence 20 is that he wasn't aware whether the lights were turned 21 off at all. In fact, I think he may have thought the 22 lights were on the entire time. 23 So I'm not sure he can answer that 24 question. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want


1 to -- 2 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Sure. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- clarify 4 that? 5 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Ms. Esmonde's 6 point, during cross-examination, Commissioner, was in the 7 event that the lights -- the roof lights were turned off, 8 would that have confused the driver. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, but he 10 may not have known -- 11 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: Pardon me? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 13 that was her question. 14 MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: That was, and -- 15 and the officer had given an answer in that regard. So, 16 based on that answer, I do think that this is a fair 17 question to put to him. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it 19 depends on how you put the question to him. Do you want 20 to put the question with some precision so you don't 21 raise any objection? 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. JENNIFER GLEITMAN: 24 Q: Are you aware of the -- of the 25 direction that was given to -- for vehicles to turn the


1 roof lights off? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. From what you observed on that 4 evening, when this vehicle was being pursued, was there 5 sufficient time for that vehicle to have pulled over? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: When the vehicles -- when you follow 8 -- when Ms. Simon's vehicle was followed into the parking 9 lot at the restaurant, and you pulled in behind, were you 10 aware of -- at that time, of how many occupants were in 11 the vehicle? 12 A: No. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Ms. Esmonde, in her cross- 17 examination, asked you some questions about efforts to 18 obtain information regarding the vehicle that was being 19 followed. 20 Do you recall those questions? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I just want your evidence to be 23 clear on this point. Would it have been your role, as 24 the support officers, or the second police car, to have 25 obtained that information?


1 A: No, it would be the lead vehicle. 2 Q: Were you in a position from where you 3 are -- where you were, sorry, following the lead vehicle, 4 to make observations of that vehicle? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So were you able, for example, to see 7 the licence plate number? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And are you aware of whether the lead 10 vehicle did make any such inquiries? 11 A: I do remember that the lead vehicle 12 did radio in that information. 13 Q: Okay. That's your recollection? 14 A: That is, yes. 15 Q: Now, your evidence is that you were 16 not involved in the arrest of Ms. Simon, correct? 17 A: That's correct, yes. 18 Q: And were you aware of a call made by 19 the arresting officers to the command post, where 20 instructions were given to arrest Ms. Simon and take her 21 into custody? 22 A: I can't remember that instruction, 23 personally? 24 Q: And you don't recall that call -- 25 such a call being made?


1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. I take it that your evidence 3 today was that from the time that you became involved in 4 the events at Ipperwash on July 29th of 1995, it was your 5 understanding that your role, as a police officer, was to 6 remain neutral, correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you gave some evidence in cross- 9 examination that -- to the effect that the police were 10 acting on behalf of the Ministry of Natural Resources, 11 right? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And I take it that when you say that 14 the police were acting on behalf of the MNR, what you are 15 saying is that the MNR had a complaint and you were 16 responding to that complaint, right? 17 A: That's correct, yes. 18 Q: And I take it that in responding to 19 that complaint, as police officers you continued to act 20 in the same neutral fashion in which you would respond to 21 any other complaint? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: My Friend asked you -- a moment's 24 indulgence. 25


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: My Friend asked you some questions in 4 cross-examination regarding your knowledge of some of the 5 people that you encountered when you were on patrol. 6 For example, you were asked how you knew 7 Roderick George; do you recall that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you were asked how you knew 10 Dudley George. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you were asked how you knew Glenn 13 George, right? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: Can I take you, please, this is, 16 Commissioner, Exhibit P-1265. Sergeant, it is at Tab 6 17 of your materials. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Okay? And this, you've testified, is 20 a report that you would have filled out following your 21 patrols in August of 1995. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And in your entry dated August the 24 9th of 1995, you make reference, starting four (4) lines 25 down from where the date is, to certain individuals.


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I'm sorry, but I have a bit of a 3 hard time with the names. A moment's indulgence. 4 How is that you knew these individuals? 5 A: I knew these individuals from -- from 6 Walpole Island. 7 Q: Okay. And what did you know about 8 them? 9 A: I knew that we had troubles with them 10 on Walpole because they -- in the past, they disputed our 11 authority to be there as well. 12 Q: So what if -- in light of that 13 information, what, if any, concerns did you have? 14 A: My concerns there, they were 15 attending the Military Camp for the purpose of agitating 16 the situation. 17 Q: I'd also like to take you to Exhibit 18 P-1267. Commissioner, this is at Tab 7 of the witness' 19 binder. Right at the beginning is your statement. Could 20 you please turn at page 5 of that document? 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: The third line from the bottom, you 23 indicate: 24 "Observed Native protest walk, and 25 observed Ed Isaac involved in the walk


1 from Kettle Point to CFB Ipperwash." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did you know Ed Isaac? 4 A: Yes. I knew him from Walpole Island. 5 Q: Pardon me? 6 A: I knew him from Walpole Island as 7 well. 8 Q: And what infor -- what did you know 9 about him? 10 A: I had had many confrontations with Ed 11 in the past to -- questioning our authority to be on 12 Walpole. 13 Q: And in light of your experiences, 14 what concerns, if any, did you have? 15 A: I had concerns he was there for the 16 same reason. 17 Q: I take it from your notes, of the 18 events of September the 6th, that following your 19 involvement with the pursuit of Ms. Simon's vehicle, you 20 were immediately assigned other duties, correct? 21 A: After that incident? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yes, we were. 24 Q: And am I correct that those duties 25 kept you -- kept you occupied for a significant period of


1 time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Now My Friend Mr. Roy asked 4 you questions regarding your note taking practices and 5 the fact that notes -- police notes are often used in the 6 event that you have to testify in court later on, right? 7 A: That's correct, yes. 8 Q: And I take it that your notes do not 9 constitute a complete transcript of everything that you 10 experienced during this time, right? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And I take it that in most cases, 13 when a police officer is called to give evidence, it's 14 usually not ten and a half (10 1/2) years after the 15 events take place, correct? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Thank you. Those are all my 18 questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you any 20 re-examination, Ms. Hensel? 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: No, I don't, 22 Commissioner, but I would like to take this opportunity 23 to thank Sergeant Dougan for his time and his assistance 24 here today. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you


1 very much -- 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 4 Sergeant, for coming and giving us your evidence. Thank 5 you. That's it. 6 7 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 10 to take five (5) minutes or are you ready to go right 11 into it? Are you ready to go right into it? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We're ready to go. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. We'll 14 call the next witness. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'll 20 just be a couple of minutes getting the next witness. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume Mr.


1 Millar will go to approximately half past 5:00, is that-- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, that would be 3 fine. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You'll find 5 a convenient spot to stop -- 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- around 8 then. That's fine. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Thank you, 10 Commissioner, the next witness the Commission calls is 11 Detective Constable Mark Dew. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Mr. Dew. 13 Sir would you give your name in full for us, please, for 14 the record? 15 MR. MARK DEW: Mark Keith Dew. 16 THE REGISTRAR: And could you -- you can 17 sit down and speak into that microphone. 18 MR. MARK DEW: Okay. Yeah. Mark Keith 19 Dew. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 21 22 MARK KEITH DEW, Sworn 23 24 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Good afternoon, Constable Dew. If


1 you could take that black binder, the large witness brief 2 binder that's there and put it in front of you, and 3 please open it at Tab 1. 4 And I understand that you became a member 5 of the Ontario Provincial Police in November 1984? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And you started your police work at 8 Petrolia Detachment? 9 A: That's true. 10 Q: And can you tell us a little bit 11 about the work that you did in Petrolia? 12 A: I spent the first two (2) or three 13 (3) years of my career in uniform. And then for the next 14 few years, from approximately '87 to '93, in and out of 15 uniform, from time to time doing criminal investigations. 16 And then in 1993 I became a full-time criminal 17 investigator. 18 Q: And when you were in uniform, you 19 were doing general police duties? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And that was -- during that period of 22 time you were based in Petrolia? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And I understand that in 1995 you 25 held the rank of Detective Constable?


1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And again, you were based, in 1995, 3 in Petrolia? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And the -- prior to September 1995, 6 did you have any training with respect to Aboriginal 7 issues? 8 A: Not specifically. No, the only kind 9 of training, that I can -- I can recall, would be a day 10 or so at the Ontario Police College, during the routine 11 training you have to do to become a police officer. 12 Q: When you became -- your -- back in 13 1984, when you became a police officer? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And did you have any experience 16 policing with res -- prior to 1995, policing with respect 17 to any First Nations? 18 A: Very, very limited. From time to 19 time personnel from Petrolia Detachment would be 20 dispatched to assist Sombra units on Walpole Island, or 21 likewise Forest or Kettle Point units at Kettle Point. 22 Q: And so that from time to time you 23 would respond? 24 A: Yeah. I would anything but 25 routinely; very -- every once in a while.


1 Q: Every once in a while? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And at Tab 1 of the book in front of 4 you is a copy of a resume that you prepared? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And I would ask that that be marked 7 the next exhibit. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-1269, Your Honour. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1269: Document Number 2005551. 11 Curriculum Vitae of Mark 12 Keith Dew. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And I understand that in 1993 -- were 16 you aware of the issues involving -- step back for a 17 moment. 18 Prior to September 1995, or August 1995, 19 were you aware of the issues surrounding Camp Ipperwash? 20 A: Vaguely. 21 Q: And what was the source of your 22 information? 23 A: Well, I heard at work, and probably 24 more what I read in the local paper. 25 Q: And in 1993 were you involved in any


1 policing activities with respect to the occupation of 2 Camp Ipperwash? 3 A: Not with respect to the occupation of 4 the camp, no. 5 Q: And I understand that in 1994, in May 6 of 1994, you began your -- your -- really your first 7 involvement with respect to Ipperwash? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And I understand that you were 10 assigned to patrol the army camp beach and the West 11 Ipperwash beach area? 12 A: That's right. On a couple of 13 occasions I did, yeah. 14 Q: And at Tab 2 are some of your notes. 15 As I understand it, those are your notes? 16 A: Copies of, yes. 17 Q: Copies of your notes. And these are 18 notes for May 29th, 1994 and May 28th, 1994? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, 21 it's Inquiry document 2005588. And were those notes made 22 at or about the time of the events in -- in the -- 23 depicted in the notes? 24 A: Yes, they were. 25 Q: And what is your normal note taking


1 practice? 2 A: I endeavour to make my notes at the 3 time or as soon thereafter as I can. 4 Q: I would ask that these notes be -- 5 for May 28th and May 29th, 1994, be marked the next 6 exhibit. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-1270, Your Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1270. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1270: Document Number 2005588. 11 Handwritten notebook entries 12 of Mark Dew, May 28- 29, 13 1994. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And I note from your notes you were 17 called to Forest and briefed by Detective Sergeant 18 Wright? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And do you recall what you were told 21 by Detective Sergeant Wright? 22 A: Not specifically, no. 23 Q: And were you working in uniform or 24 not in uniform? 25 A: Not in uniform; civilian attire,


1 appropriate for the beach. 2 Q: And what were -- what were you 3 supposed to do? 4 A: My understanding was we were to go to 5 the beach and just observe to see if there were, in fact, 6 any -- any problems, any difficulties there on the beach 7 at all. 8 Q: And any difficulties -- were there 9 any other instructions given? 10 A: None that I recall. 11 Q: And the West Ipperwash beach is the 12 beach near Kettle Point? 13 A: Nearer Kettle Point than -- than the 14 Provincial Park, yes. 15 Q: Yes. And the army camp beach is the 16 beach next -- east of the Provincial Park? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And I understand that you attended at 19 both of those beaches on May 28th and May 29th? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And that there were no particular 22 incidents at -- on either of those days? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And that when you were on CFB 25 Ipperwash beach, you understood, from some of the First


1 Nations people you encountered, that your presence wasn't 2 appreciated? 3 A: That's not correct. The people that 4 I ran into were actually military policemen. 5 Q: Oh. Okay. 6 A: And they were not crazy about our 7 attendance there. 8 Q: Did you identify yourselves as a 9 police officer? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And they were still not crazy about 12 your attendance there? 13 A: No, in fact we -- we packed up and 14 went to the other side, to the -- the beach in front of 15 the Provincial Park. 16 Q: Okay. Did anything else of note 17 happen during those two (2) days? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And now, I've -- do you recall 20 attending a briefing in June of 1995, held under the 21 direction of Mark Wright and Brad Seltzer? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And I put in front of you, Detective 24 Constable Dew, a copy of Exhibit P-1093, it's Inquiry 25 Document 2000341, and this is the document that refers to


1 some training that took place in Petrolia on June 15th, 2 1994. 3 Excuse me, excuse me, that's a -- 4 A: That's it. 5 Q: -- separate document that you've got 6 there. And do you recall -- do you have any recollection 7 of seeing this document before? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And do you have any recollection of 10 attending a briefing in June of 1994? 11 A: No, I do not. 12 Q: And if I could take you to -- it's 13 about fifteen (15) pages in from the back, there's a row 14 -- a list of names, Detective Constable, it's a sign-in 15 sheet. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: And the first one is -- says: 18 "Petrolia June 15th '94 p.m." 19 It may be the -- 20 A: There's a few here. 21 Q: Keep going back. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that -- your name appears as 24 having attended the meeting? 25 A: Yes, it does.


1 Q: But you have no recollection of the 2 meeting? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Do you have any recollection of being 5 given instructions as to what you should or should not do 6 with respect to issues at West Ipperwash Beach or CFB 7 Ipperwash? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And the next time that you attended 10 in the Ipperwash area with respect to the issues of the 11 Army Camp or the Provincial Park of West Ipperwash Beach, 12 as I understand it, was in May of 1995? 13 A: That sounds correct, yes. 14 Q: And at Tab 3 are your notes, as I 15 understand it, for May 20th and 21st, 1995? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what were you asked to do on May 18 20th and 21st of 1995? 19 A: It was the same assignment as before; 20 to attend the beach to see if there were -- if there was 21 anything going on. Just to observe. 22 Q: And I note from your notes that there 23 was not much activity to report? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And that's the same for both days?


1 A: Yes. 2 Q: I would ask that that be the next 3 exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-1271, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1271: Document Number 2005587. 7 Handwritten notebook entries 8 of Mark Dew, May 20, 1995. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Then, as I understand it, your next 12 involvement is on July 29th, 1995? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And at Tab 4 there's a series of 15 notes. And are those your notes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And Commissioner, for the benefit of 18 My Friends, I apologize, Exhibit P-1271 is Inquiry 19 Document 2005587. 20 And at Tab 4 you will -- it's Inquiry 21 Document 2003453. And the group of notes that we have 22 here, Commissioner, are part of what is found in Inquiry 23 Document 2003453, it's the notes that go down -- actually 24 the first eighty-two (82) pages that go down to October 25 the 4th, 1995. This was part of the -- actually the


1 Inquiry Document 2003453 has approximately a hundred and 2 twenty-three (123) pages and goes down, I think, to some 3 time in 2001. 4 And on the first page of Inquiry Document 5 2003453, it says: 6 "Project Maple Ipperwash '95." 7 And when did you put that on this group of 8 documents? 9 A: It was after the fact. 10 Q: After the fact? 11 A: I -- I can't recall exactly when I 12 wrote that in there, but. 13 Q: And was it at the time you were asked 14 to put together your notes for this period of time? 15 A: Quite likely. 16 Q: And with respect to page 2, the names 17 Dudley, Waldo, Nick? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: When did you create this piece of 20 paper? 21 A: I'm not sure when I created that. 22 That was for my reference so I knew who I was talking 23 about. These are obviously people of interest in the 24 investigation that I was involved in. 25 Q: And...


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Commissioner, you should have -- the 4 first page of that document should say, "Project Maple." 5 Or your page doesn't have that? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I don't 7 have that. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Start on the second 9 page. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The gremlins have -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, it's 12 all right. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Mr. Registrar, 14 does yours...? 15 THE REGISTRAR: No. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The -- I would ask 17 that this group of notes be marked the next exhibit and 18 we'll get you the front page of that. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think I 20 have all the other pages, but not the front page. 21 Yes...? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-1272, Your Honour. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-1272: Document Number 2003453. 25 Handwritten notebook entries


1 of Mark Dew, Project Maple, 2 July 29, 1995 to October 04, 3 1995. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: So can you tell us what happened on 7 July 29th? 8 A: July 29th I was on a day off. I was 9 called into work by Detective Sergeant Hudson and met 10 eventually with Detective Constable Chris Martin, and we 11 were assigned to invest -- or to interview a couple who 12 had some information that they had received from their 13 son. 14 Q: And you then attended -- what did you 15 do? 16 A: We met that couple at Grand Bend 17 Detachment, and in the cafeteria there, Chris Martin 18 conducted an interview, and I accompanied him there. 19 Q: And at Tab 5, Commissioner, there's a 20 copy of Exhibit P-1194, it's Inquiry Document 2003761. 21 And the names of the individuals have been redacted from 22 the public record, but this was the interview -- a copy 23 of the interview that was conducted by Mr. Martin? 24 A: It's a transcript of the tape, yes. 25 Q: Yes. And can you just briefly tell


1 us, we've heard from Constable Martin so just briefly 2 tell us what happened -- 3 A: To the best -- yeah, to the best of 4 my recollection their son had told them that he and 5 friends had been on the beach, and in my mind it's the 6 beach down by Wally Gator's. At any rate, they had -- 7 Q: Wally Gator's is located at the 8 bottom of Ipperwash -- 9 A: I think it's called -- yeah, I think 10 it's called Ipperwash Road now. 11 Q: And it runs from Ravenswood, north to 12 the lake? 13 A: That's correct 14 Q: And Wally Gator's is a -- an 15 establishment, at least back in 1995 was at the 16 intersection of Ipperwash Road and West Ipperwash -- 17 A: Parkway Drive you mean. 18 Q: Parkway? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: West Parkway Drive. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: West Parkway Drive? 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: It's east -- on the east side of 25 Ipperwash Road and west -- on the west side of Ipperwash


1 Road; is that your recollection? 2 A: That's -- that's the general area I 3 had in mind, yes. 4 Q: And so he was on the -- their son was 5 on the beach at the end of Ipperwash Road, near Wally 6 Gator's? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And they encountered a male Native 10 who they described as being rather large, as I recall, 11 over -- over six (6) feet tall and around three hundred 12 (300) pounds, that he had a Mohawk haircut and that his 13 name was Andy. 14 And they -- the boys had had a 15 conversation about snowmobiling, I believe, on the Army 16 Base. And that this fellow had told them that that was a 17 bad idea and words to the effect that there was going to 18 be a small Oka there; that they had a large amount of 19 weaponry and a lot of support and that they were -- they 20 were going to take over the Park, or words to that 21 effect, I think. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And what, if anything, did you do


1 after -- with the information you obtained at the 2 interview. 3 A: I'm not sure where that tape went to 4 at that time. As I said, then-Detective Constable Chris 5 Martin was conducting the interview. I'm not sure what 6 he did with the tape. I don't think I had anything to do 7 with it. 8 Q: Okay. And at Tab 13 -- Tab 12 of 9 your book of documents, is a copy of Exhibit P-413. 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And this is a CFB intelligence log. 12 Have you seen this document before? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And did you have anything -- so 15 you've not seen it before so it -- so I take it you had 16 nothing -- no part in maintaining the actual document 17 that's P-413? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: And after the interview what did you 20 do? 21 A: As I recall, we were asked to stay in 22 the neighbourhood, in fact, booked into a hotel in 23 Forest, and then went home the next day. 24 Q: And back to the Petrolia area? 25 A: That's right.


1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Then what were your -- now, you never 4 did talk to the son -- 5 A: No, I did not. 6 Q: -- just to the parents? And I 7 understand that the parents made it clear to you they 8 didn't want their son involved? 9 A: That's the way I recall it, yes. 10 Q: And the information as you indicated, 11 was passed on by Chris Martin. Do you know who he passed 12 it on to? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: And after he passed the information 15 on, did you have any -- play any part with respect to 16 what happened to that information? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Now, if I -- at -- please turn to 19 page 3 of Exhibit P-72. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: It's Tab 4, excuse me. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)


1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1272, I 2 think -- 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 1272 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- according 5 to -- to -- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 1272. 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What did I say? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 72 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Oh, excuse me. P-1272. Sometimes 12 haste makes -- it's Tab 4 and page 3, Detective 13 Constable. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And these are your notes from June 16 the 30th, 1995? I mean -- 17 A: July 30th. 18 Q: -- July the 30th, 1995? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you were -- can you tell us what 21 you did on July 30th, 1995? 22 A: Once again, I was on a day-off and 23 called in to work and eventually tasked with camping at 24 the Ipperwash Provincial Park along with Sergeant Eve and 25 Detective Constable Martin and P/C Karen Dunn.


1 Q: And who briefed you as to what you 2 were to do in -- as a camper in the Park? 3 A: Inspector Carson. 4 Q: And what do you recall today that you 5 were told was your role? 6 A: As I recall it, that our function 7 there was to observe; to do our best if -- if need be, to 8 ensure public safety and to report anything that seemed 9 noteworthy or our of the norm to Mark Wright. 10 Q: And were you also asked to keep a 11 campers' log? 12 A: The campers' log was -- no, I was not 13 asked to do that directly. I don't recall any specific 14 instruction about how to take notes. So in fact what 15 happened was, I made notes and then I believe we, as a 16 group, came to realize that someone might want to read 17 these. 18 So I made another set of notes up that -- 19 that were handed in and that eventually became the 20 practice for all the people that went into the Park in 21 that role was to write down their observations in what 22 became known as the camper's notes or camper's log. 23 Q: And I know we're jumping ahead but -- 24 so after you made the camper's notes, what did you do 25 with the camper's notes?


1 A: At the end of each session of -- of 2 camping, those notes would be turned in at Grand Bend 3 Detachment normally. 4 Q: Okay. We -- did you take them up? 5 We've heard from Const -- I think Constable Martin, he 6 said that there would be some left at the Pinery and then 7 someone else would take them up to Grand Bend? 8 A: That could have happed as well from 9 time to time, sure. 10 Q: And do you know a civilian employed 11 by the OPP back in 1995 by the name of Janet Vandenberg? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And were you aware of what role what 14 Janet Vandenberg played with respect to the camper's 15 notes in August of 1995? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Now, the -- I note on page 3 that on 18 -- you were in place on July 30th at 23:30? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And then it says: 21 "P/C Dunn and Martin took the first 22 watch." 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And then at 04:00: 25 "Detective Eve and I"


1 And then it says something I can't read 2 that. 3 A: It's "Sergeant Eve and I on patrol". 4 Q: And when you say you're on patrol, 5 what were you doing? 6 A: We had paired up and decided the -- 7 the way to do this was to work in pairs and to work 8 around the clock until we got our feet under us I guess, 9 to understand exactly what would be the normal happenings 10 in the Park and whatnot and to observe, rather than four 11 (4) of us staying up twenty-four (24) hours a day. 12 Q: And the -- went you went on patrol, 13 can you just give us a sense of what you did? 14 A: We just -- at nighttime we walked 15 around the Park. In the daytime we maintained 16 observations, normally down at the beach. 17 Q: On the Beach. And the -- there's a 18 note July 31, 1995, late entry. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And can you read that for us please? 21 A: It says: 22 "Failed to note that Inspector Carson 23 had advised our primary function was 24 intelligence gathering. Public safety 25 was imperative as well as our own and


1 not to blow our cover unless someone's 2 safety was in jeopardy." 3 Q: And at this point in time on July 4 31st, 1995, your primary role was as a criminal 5 investigator, as a police officer? 6 A: I'm -- sorry. Could you ask me that 7 one (1) more time? 8 Q: On July -- In July of 1995 your 9 primary assignment as a police officer was as a criminal 10 investigator? 11 A: Yes, that's true. 12 Q: And had you had any training with 13 respect intelligence gathering? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And did Inspector Carson tell you 16 what he meant by intelligence gathering? 17 A: I don't think that he described it 18 necessarily. I -- I think that there -- he assumed that 19 we understood what he meant by intelligence gathering. 20 Q: And what did you understand? 21 A: In my mind intelligence gathering is 22 merely the collection of observations of -- of facts of 23 evidence; what you see and what you -- what you hear 24 other people do or say. 25 Q: And did you have, during the course


1 of -- of your career up to September the 6th, 1995, play 2 any role of any -- have any intelligence role in the OPP 3 other than gathering information? 4 A: Not that I recall, specifically. But 5 I may have at -- at bike meets and so on where we would 6 assist at say Twin Creeks for a while. At Twin Creeks 7 south of Inwood there were bike meets and I would -- 8 Q: So you would attend those? 9 A: I would take part in things like that 10 from time to time. 11 Q: But your role would be to gather 12 information as to who was present, what they were doing, 13 what you had heard? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And did you play any role in Septe -- 16 August or September 1995, in the collation of the 17 material that you gathered? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did you play any role in the 20 evaluation of the information that you gathered? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you play any role in the analysis 23 of the information? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you play any role, beyond the


1 camper's note, in reporting and disseminating the 2 information? 3 A: Not that I recall, no. 4 Q: And did you play any role in re- 5 evaluating the information that had been gathered? 6 A: No. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And did you play any role in the 11 verification of the reliability of the information that 12 you were gathering? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And did you have an understanding, in 15 the end of July and in August and early September 1995, 16 as to who was dealing with the information that you and 17 your fellow campers gathered? 18 A: No. 19 Q: So your -- you had been instructed to 20 gather information and, as we will see, you gathered the 21 information and passed it on as instructed? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Now, the -- who did you report to -- 24 who was your direct report, as an undercover officer, as 25 a camper?


1 A: In my opinion, the person that -- 2 that we reported to first was Mark Wright. 3 Q: And was -- do you recall, was Mark 4 Wright present on the briefing on July 30th? 5 A: I -- I don't recall for sure. 6 Q: And your first period of time as a 7 camper was July 30th to August the 4th? 8 A: I think that's correct, yeah. 9 Q: And at page 4 of Exhibit 1272, at 10 20:20 hours on July 31st, 1995, there's a note and 11 there's a reference to, Get off our land. 12 Can you tell us what happened here? 13 A: Yes, I -- there was a blue Trans Am, 14 at least a car that I thought was a blue Trans Am, down 15 there with three (3) male Natives, and I'm talking about 16 the area there at the end of Matheson Drive, at the 17 beach. 18 Q: And that's the area at the end of 19 Matheson Drive where Matheson Drive opens up into the 20 beach? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And on the east side, towards Grand 23 Bend, there's the Army Camp, and on the west side, 24 towards Kettle Point, is the Provincial Park? 25 A: That's correct.


1 Q: Yes? 2 A: The passenger in that car told an 3 older couple that was sitting there to, "Get off our 4 land," quote, unquote. 5 Q: And where were the -- do you have any 6 specific recollection of this beyond -- apart from your 7 notes? 8 A: The gist of the conversation I can 9 recall, yes. 10 Q: Okay. Why don't you tell us first 11 what you can recall and then we'll go to your notes? 12 A: As I recall, the person from the car 13 said to this -- this fellow, Get off our land. And the 14 old -- it was an older gentleman and his wife and he -- 15 he took exception and said something to the words of, 16 This is a Provincial Park and we can be here. 17 There was some bantering back and forth. 18 I think at one (1) point the -- this older gentleman 19 actually approached the car, went right to the car and 20 spoke to the person who was talking to him from the 21 passenger side of that car. 22 And when he came back from having that 23 conversation I went over and spoke to the older fellow 24 and he told me what he had said, which was that, you 25 know, he had fought for this country and that he wasn't


1 afraid of that guy in that car or anybody, and if he 2 wanted to come to the Park he was going to, or words to 3 that effect. 4 Q: And was the gentleman -- where was 5 the older gentleman when you observed him, was he...? 6 A: I can't recall exactly where he was, 7 but I want to say that he was near the -- the cement 8 blocks that -- that ran from basically the fence line of 9 the Provincial Park down along the beach, right to the 10 water's edge, somewhere in that vicinity. 11 Q: And was he in the -- in the 12 Provincial Park side of those cement blocks or the end of 13 Matheson Drive? 14 A: He was on the Provincial Park side 15 until he approached the car. 16 Q: And then what happened? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I note on page 5 you report that to 21 Detective Sergeant Wright? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And the -- another incident took 24 place between the blue Trans Am and the same couple? 25 A: Yes. That's -- and that's where I


1 guess I'm -- I kind of jumbled two (2) conversations 2 together. I think it's at this point where the older 3 fellow gets -- goes over and approaches the guy in the 4 car and has the conversation with him, I think. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: The -- at the bottom of page 4, the - 9 - you note: 10 "He advised me that the Native had 11 said, Get off our land. The man 12 responded, This is a Provincial Park. 13 Native said, This is Indian land. One 14 day, if not this year, next year you'll 15 be paying us to camp here because we're 16 taking this over. Then we're 17 taking..." 18 A: The Pinery. 19 Q: "Taking the Pinery?" 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And that was the first -- part of the 22 first conversation? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25


1 Q: Because it then goes on -- can you 2 just -- 3 A: Yeah, then it goes on to -- 4 Q: Can you just read that part of your 5 notes? 6 A: It says: 7 "So returned to the beach. Blue Trans 8 Am reappears. This time same Native 9 says to same retired couple, Get the 10 fuck off our land. Just at this time 11 there were some people, some men taking 12 their boat out of the lake, trailering 13 their boat. 14 And this same Native gets out of the 15 car, he places his beer bottle on the 16 roof and urinated on the beach. And at 17 this time there were several families 18 on the beach who could both hear and 19 see what was happening. 20 The Native said to the boater, Get the 21 fuck off our land. And the boater said 22 something to the effect of, We're just 23 taking our boat out and we'll be gone." 24 This Native person, I came to know who he 25 was eventually, but he was persistent in antagonizing or


1 egging this -- the one fellow in particular, the boater, 2 on. 3 And there was -- there ended up being no 4 problem, no altercation. They loaded up their boat and 5 they left. 6 Q: And the individual who you -- you -- 7 at the time of this altercation you didn't know the name 8 of the individual involved? 9 A: I had no idea who the people were 10 that were occupying the -- the army base because I didn't 11 work up in there, but Chris Martin had. 12 You know, it was, in fact, Chris Martin 13 who identified that fellow to me as being Dudley George. 14 Q: And when did he identify him to you 15 as Dudley George? 16 A: I can't recall exactly when it was, 17 but I believe it was that evening. 18 Q: And I note at page 7 that -- at the 19 bottom of page 6, that you returned to the trailer, the 20 four (4) of you, and armed ourselves. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And why did you do that? 23 A: Why? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: I don't recall, to be honest. If we


1 were told to by Sergeant Eve; it may have been, I don't 2 recall the exact reason. 3 Q: And at the top of the page 7 it says: 4 "Sergeant Eve and I went to phone to 5 advise Wright. Martin and Dew -- " 6 A: Dunn. 7 Q: "-- Dunn went back to boat launch 8 area to monitor any further activity." 9 A: Right. 10 Q: And then you ultimately spoke to 11 acting Detective Sergeant Wright? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And I see a note at 23:45: 14 "Inspector Carson and Detective 15 Sergeant Wright attended?" 16 A: Right. 17 Q: With some ERT members? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And the -- by that time the matter 20 had resolved itself? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: The boaters had left? 23 A: It was quiet. 24 Q: It was quiet? And did you 25 participate in the -- there was an accident at the end of


1 Matheson Drive as it -- at Army Camp Road on the evening 2 of -- the morning of August the 1st, were you aware of 3 that, at the -- 4 A: Not until well after the fact, I 5 wasn't. 6 Q: Not until after the fact. Then on 7 page 8 you have your notes for August the 1st. And did 8 anything significant happen on that day? 9 A: No, I don't believe so. 10 Q: And page 9 on August the 2nd? 11 A: The first note says: 12 "All quiet during the a.m." 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Nothing of note. 17 Q: And there's some references to cars 18 on page 9. And were those cars on the Army Camp side of 19 the beach? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Including the blue Trans Am? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And then August -- you were present 24 again on August the 3rd; you were still in the Park? 25 A: Yes.


1 Q: And did anything significant happen 2 on August the 3rd? 3 A: Well, the first -- no, it says: 4 "All quiet during the day. Heavy 5 rain." 6 Q: Yes? And then on August the 4th you 7 left the Camp, packed up and left? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: That's at page 12? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you keep a separate notebook 12 for your time at Ipperwash? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And -- because I note that the next 15 entry's August the 23rd? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that's because the work you did 18 down there, you kept a separate notebook? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And at Tab 6 of the black binder in 21 front of you is a copy of Exhibit P-1195. And do you 22 recognize these notes? 23 A: These are camper's notes. 24 Q: And these, in fact, I believe, are 25 your camper's notes?


1 A: I prepared these notes and they very 2 closely mirror my notebook entries, yes. 3 Q: And you made these notes actually 4 from your notebook entries? 5 A: I believe I did, yes. 6 Q: And... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Commissioner, this might be an 11 appropriate place, it's almost 5:30, to stop before we 12 move to August 23rd. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 14 We'll stop now and we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at 15 9:00 a.m. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 18 adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, April the 4th at 9:00 19 a.m. 20 21 (WITNESS RETIRES) 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 5:28 p.m. 24 25


1 2 3 Certified Correct, 4 5 6 7 8 9 _________________ 10 Carol Geehan, Ms. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25