11 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 September 22nd, 2004 25
21 Appearances 2 3 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 4 Susan Vella ) 5 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 6 Katherine Hensel ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) George and George Andrew 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 12 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 13 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 14 15 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 16 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena 17 (Army Camp) 18 19 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stoney 20 Jonathon George ) Point First Nation 21 22 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 23 Walter Myrka ) 24 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 25
31 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 4 David Nash ) (Np) Lambton Shores 5 6 Peter Downard ) (np) The Honourable Michael 7 Bill Hourigan ) Harris 8 Jennifer McAleer ) 9 10 Nancy Spies ) (Np) Robert Runciman 11 Alice Mrozek ) (Np) 12 13 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 14 Jacqueline Horvat ) 15 16 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 17 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 18 19 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Police 21 22 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 23 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 24 Debra Newell ) K. Deane 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 7 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 8 Francine Borsanyi ) (np) Coroner 9 10 William Horton ) (np) Chiefs of Ontario 11 Matthew Horner ) 12 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 13 14 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 15 Craig Mills ) 16 17 David Roebuck ) (Np) Debbie Hutton 18 Anna Perschy ) (Np) 19 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 20 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 21 22 23 24 25
51 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 YVONNE BONNIE BRESSETTE, Resumed 6 7 Continued Examination-In-Chief by 8 Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 53 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 106 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 126 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Walter Myrka 161 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 187 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 210 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
61 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-45 Inspection and search report 4 of school bus and Chrysler 5 New Yorker. 43 6 P-46 Memorandum of Understanding 45 7 P-47 Memorandum of Understanding 8 between the First Nations People 9 at Stony Point and the Ontario 10 Provincial Police dated September 11 17, 1995 46 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 11 YVONNE BONNNIE BRESSETTE, Resumed 12 13 CONTINUED IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Bressette. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: We were yesterday at -- in August of 17 1995 and I would like to now move to September 1995 and 18 ask you when did you first learn of the occupation of the 19 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 20 A: I think it was the morning after. 21 The morning after they were sitting at the Park. 22 Q: And would that have been the Tuesday 23 morning, the -- as I understood the Park was -- the 24 occupiers entered the Park on the evening or the 25 afternoon -- late afternoon of September 4th which was
81 the Monday Labour Day and then did you learn it the next 2 morning, Tuesday, September 5th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the -- how did you learn of the 5 occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 6 A: I really can't recall how I -- who 7 told me. It could have been anybody at Kettle Point but 8 I really can't remember who told me. 9 Q: Yes. And did you know on September 10 5th who were among the people who would -- had occupied 11 the park? 12 A: I just assumed it was my cousins. 13 Q: When did you first go to the park? 14 A: I went to the -- 15 Q: Firstly, did you go to the park? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And when did you first go to the park? 18 A: I went to the park on the day that -- 19 the morning that Dudley was shot. 20 Q: And that was the morning of September 21 6th? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: You'll have to say "yes". 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And can you tell us why you went to
91 the Park? 2 A: I went -- went down to talk and ask 3 them why they were in the Park and I wanted to just talk 4 with them. 5 Q: Okay. And can you tell us a little 6 bit about your journey to the Park? You left -- you were 7 at Kettle Point and you left Kettle Point to -- to go to 8 the Park. How did you go? 9 A: I drove down by myself. 10 Q: And you went along Highway 21. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you encounter any Ontario 13 Provincial Police officers on Highway 21? 14 A: Not on Highway 21. It was -- I -- 15 they stopped me just after I turned off Highway 21 on 16 Army Camp Road just before you get to the army camp gate. 17 Q: And how many Ontario Provincial Police 18 officers stopped you? 19 A: There was about maybe four (4) or five 20 (5). You've got to remember, I wasn't looking at numbers 21 on anybody. I just seen there was more than one (1) 22 police officer and they had the road blocked and then 23 they asked me where I was going and I told them I was 24 going in to the Park. 25 Q: Okay. And what did they say?
101 A: Nothing, they just said, Okay. They 2 let me -- asked me who I was and I told them and they 3 let me through. 4 Q: Okay. And as you were driving down -- 5 you then drove down Army Camp Road? 6 A: No. I went into the Park gate and 7 took the road that you seen on the -- I took the boundary 8 road -- road on the -- next to Army Camp Road. Inside of 9 the Stony Point there's a road that goes all the way 10 back, right to the end where the Park would begin. 11 Q: So, you -- you took -- you went into 12 the entrance of the army camp and then you drove on the 13 road that runs parallel to Army Camp Road -- 14 A: Right. 15 Q: -- and -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: We've seen it before on the map and 18 did you go through -- once you got to the Park, did you 19 go on the road past the maintenance building? How did 20 you -- do you -- 21 A: I don't know what the maintenance 22 building is. I assume it's those buildings that's right 23 along on the edge -- closest to Army Camp Road, I assume 24 that must be the buildings you're talking about because I 25 drove straight back all the way back.
111 Q: Okay, and when you arrived at the 2 Park, what -- or on your way to the Park, did you observe 3 anything unusual? 4 A: Yes, there was a helicopter following 5 me. It was up over top of the car. 6 Q: And how long did this helicopter 7 follow you? 8 A: All the way there. 9 Q: And when you got to the Park where was 10 the helicopter? 11 A: It -- I met with Glenn -- I was 12 sitting with Glenn and Dudley and there was Judas 13 (phonetic) and we were sitting there and the helicopter 14 was right over top of us. 15 Q: And when you were sitting there, you 16 were sitting at a picnic table? 17 A: At a picnic table. 18 Q: And where were -- were you -- can you 19 tell us in relation to the store that was on the Park. 20 You know the store that was on the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Were you near the store that was on 23 the Park? 24 A: Not too far from it. Where I was 25 sitting -- if I was sitting here, the store was a just
121 little ways over there. 2 Q: And so was the picnic table beside 3 the -- one (1) of the roads leading towards East Parkway 4 Drive? One (1) of the interior roads? 5 A: The picnic table was -- how do I 6 describe this? The picnic table -- there was a couple of 7 picnic tables there and it was I'd say closest about from 8 here to that wall from the road. Maybe not that far. 9 Q: And you said there was Glenn and is 10 that your cousin Glenn George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then Dudley George was there? 13 A: Yes. Dudley was my cousin too. 14 Q: And your cousin as well. And Judas 15 is Roderick George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And is Mr. Roderick George related to 18 you as well? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: He's a cousin as well? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And how long did the helicopter stay 23 above you? 24 A: It stayed above us for quite a while 25 because at that time when I was feeling uncomfortable
131 because I could see the -- somebody up there with a 2 camera and I could see somebody with a gun pointed down 3 at us. 4 And it stayed there for quite a while and 5 then it would kind of go away and then would come back 6 again. Never really left the area but go away and then 7 come back. 8 Q: Okay. And did you see any police 9 officers of -- where you were down -- when you got down 10 into the Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And where was the police officers? 13 A: And -- they were across the road from 14 where we were sitting. 15 Q: And they were across the road, the 16 road you're referring to is the road from East Parkway, 17 the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army Camp Road 18 that leads down to the -- 19 A: Beach. 20 Q: -- the beach? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you recall how many police 23 officers were outside the Park? 24 A: No. I -- I can't -- I didn't count 25 them but there was sure a lot of them.
141 Q: And what did you learn -- before I go 2 there, what were the police officers wearing? Do you 3 recall? I know it's a long time ago but do you recall 4 what the police officers were wearing? 5 A: They had on blue clothes, I don't -- 6 can't really recall the hat, it wasn't a police hat and 7 they had on a vest. 8 Q: Was it a -- okay. And what were the 9 police officers doing? 10 A: They were just standing along in a 11 line, big long row. 12 Q: Okay. And you had a discussion with 13 Mr. Glenn George and Mr. Dudley George and Mr. Roderick 14 George, is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And what did you learn from your 17 discussion? 18 A: That they were there because they 19 wanted to bring attention that this Park was located on 20 our ancestors' burial ground and that they wanted it to 21 stop. That we couldn't be doing that anymore. And it 22 had to stop. That's why they were there was to bring 23 attention. 24 And that's -- I'd like to add my comments 25 that that's what causes all the problems. When people
151 who have the responsibility to address things like this 2 never address it until there's been a protest, a 3 demonstration or whatever. And that's what it was, to 4 say this is our ancestors' burial ground and it should 5 not be a Park where people can party and carry on 6 anymore. 7 Q: Now do you know if anyone raised the 8 issue of the burial ground with the authorities prior to 9 the occupation on September 4th, 1995? 10 A: No, I'm not -- I wasn't aware of it at 11 the time but I've since then seen where our members of 12 council have, in records, brought attention to it, but I 13 never really knew at that time that there was a burial 14 ground there. I knew because Mrs. Matheson who -- her 15 husband run the Park down there -- I don't even know if 16 she's with us now -- but when I was -- I used to go 17 housecleaning. I used to clean cottages, also, down the 18 beach. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And Mrs. Matheson, who was the Park 21 superintendent's wife, told me just in our conversation 22 one (1) day, she said, Did you know that when they dug -- 23 were putting in the pumphouse that there was Indian 24 remains that was dug up? And I told her I did not know 25 that.
161 So that's -- I'm just making that comment 2 because Mrs. Matheson -- I don't even know if she's with 3 us today -- she made -- and that's -- and I really never 4 even thought. I didn't think it was true -- 5 Q: And -- 6 A: -- so I never paid no attention to it. 7 Q: And the documents that you just 8 referred to a few minutes ago were the documents that we 9 have seen earlier back from the '30s and '50s. 10 A: Yeah, I've seen them in our research 11 but I didn't see them at that time. 12 Q: And can you tell us what time of day 13 was it, Mrs. Bressette, when you first went down to the 14 Park? 15 A: It was in the morning, probably around 16 about 10:00 or 10:30 that I first went -- when I first 17 went down there. 18 Q: Okay, and did you have any discussions 19 with Mr. Dudley George -- while you were at the -- in the 20 Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what did Mr. Dudley George tell 23 you? 24 A: Well, first when we were sitting there 25 talking -- because I was feeling uneasy with the
171 policemen behind with all the guns and the helicopter 2 overhead and they had a gun there and Dudley says, Don't 3 be afraid. I -- I actually started crying and he said 4 don't be afraid. 5 He said, they're not going to -- they're 6 not going to do anything to us in here. He said, They 7 have -- I don't know how to -- he said, They have 8 something that can -- they know that there's just men in 9 here and they know we've got no weapons. He said, They 10 don't shoot anybody that don't have no weapons. They 11 have something that can tell how many's in here. It 12 shows, he said, body mass. I remember that. It tells -- 13 it can tell you whether that's an adult or a kid and he 14 said, Don't -- don't be afraid. 15 So I went to my car and I got a couple of 16 eagle feathers I've always had in my car that was given 17 to me by an elder from up north and that person told me 18 to carry them and -- eagle feathers to us are a number of 19 things. It even gives you safety and you feel real good 20 when you have -- and I had two (2) small ones and I gave 21 them to Glenn and I said, Glenn, I want you to have 22 these, you and the boys down here and when the helicopter 23 seen me going to the car, it came real low again and then 24 I could see them again. 25 They were right over us, so low that the
181 dust was all around. It was really dry weather and the 2 dust -- the sand was -- and they were taking pictures but 3 it was two (2) eagle feathers on a -- a piece of hide 4 that I gave to them and Glenn held them up in the air to 5 them so they could see what it was and I felt comfortable 6 then leaving them my -- with my feathers. 7 Q: And did Mr. Dudley George say anything 8 else to you when you were there in the Park in the 9 morning? 10 A: He was -- he was kind of laughing 11 because he said they really get mad at him because he 12 teases them. Dudley was that kind of a person. He -- 13 matter of fact, he even yelled at them and they'd yell 14 back at -- you know -- him and tell him something but he 15 says they told him that when they get into the Park he's 16 going to be the first to get it. 17 Q: And did he say who told him that? 18 A: No. I -- he just told me the -- the 19 guys who were there, he says they told me that when they 20 get in here, he's going to be the first to get it. And I 21 told him, doesn't that scare you? And he says, no. It's 22 like I told him -- told you he says, they know all the -- 23 what's in here. And there wasn't. When you read the 24 reports that was in the newspaper, it was all blown out 25 of proportion.
191 You know, there wasn't more than a dozen 2 people there. And most of them were kids and they were 3 family. 4 Q: And there were women and children? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when you -- how long 7 approximately did you stay at the Park on your first 8 visit? 9 A: I was probably about a couple of 10 hours. 11 Q: Mmm hmm. And you left the Park? 12 A: Yes because I asked Dudley and Glenn 13 and them what could I -- how can I help you out? What do 14 you need? And they said we need some food and 15 cigarettes. So I said okay I'll go and get some and 16 that's when they said, why don't you bring the kids back 17 and we'll have a picnic, he says, we'll all eat together. 18 So I said okay. And I left there and I 19 had my, it was this little, a puddle jumper, my little 20 Mazda. And I left there in my little Mazda and I went 21 home, stopped at the grocery store and I bought whatever 22 that I figured we'd like to eat and got some cigarettes. 23 And I went home, and I told my husband, I 24 said, let's go back, I says, down to see the boys at the 25 Park and let's go back. And I got food and we'll go and
201 have a eat with them and visit with them. 2 And so then my husband Fred, my daughter 3 Gail, my daughter Barbara and then my grandchildren, 4 Chelsea, Adam. We took about eight (8) of my 5 grandchildren in and we went and I told them when we were 6 leaving. I says, the police is going to stop us and 7 there's a helicopter but it's okay. 8 So we got our food and we got pop and 9 everything and we went all the way back in and they 10 stopped us again, right at the same stop -- 11 Q: Just between Highway 21 and the 12 entrance -- 13 A: And the gate. 14 Q: -- of the Army camps? 15 A: And they asked again who we were and 16 we told them who we were and they said -- they didn't say 17 anything, they just opened the gate. And we went into -- 18 all the way, the same way in, in through the gate all the 19 way back and we went back and we set up a table right 20 close to where you refer as the Park store. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And that's where we sat and we had 23 our eat with everybody that was there. 24 Q: And when you went back in the 25 afternoon, I take it was in the afternoon?
211 A: Mmm hmm. 2 Q: Can you tell us approximately what 3 time it was? Early, late afternoon? 4 A: I'd say around about 3:30, four 5 o'clock. 6 Q: And did you travel in your Mazda or 7 in another vehicle? 8 A: No, we had my husband's van. 9 Q: And the -- when you returned to the 10 Park, did you notice anything unusual on your way into 11 the Park? Was the helicopter still there? 12 A: Oh, yeah. 13 Q: And what did the helicopter do? 14 A: They followed us back in again and 15 then when we got back -- we got down there, the kids were 16 all getting out and the helicopter was right over -- over 17 top of us. And -- they were taking pictures again. And 18 all those pictures must be some place so they knew who 19 went in there. 20 And it would come back periodically again 21 real low and the dust would all come up and -- but we 22 still ate our -- ate our supper. 23 Q: And when they -- you were having your 24 supper, did the helicopter come by when your -- the food 25 was on the table?
221 A: Yeah, yes. 2 Q: And what happened then? 3 A: We -- we were kind of onto the area 4 that wasn't all soft so the wind didn't -- the wind from 5 the helicopter didn't bring up that much dust because we 6 were on the side by -- near that store. 7 Q: And so -- and were there still police 8 officers outside the Park on the entrance road from the 9 intersection to the beach? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And were there's -- can you tell us 12 how many police officers were outside the -- on the road? 13 A: I can't tell you how many but there 14 was a big line of them. 15 Q: And how long did you stay at the Park 16 the second time? 17 A: We were going to stay for the evening 18 because the little kids that was there wanted my 19 grandchildren to go swimming with them and we -- I was 20 thinking about it and then there was a lot of 21 yellowjackets because we had -- there was watermelon and 22 other stuff that we were eating and there was a lot of 23 yellowjackets around there because there was a garbage 24 bin right close -- close by there. 25 And my husband is highly allergic to bee
231 stings and so is my granddaughter, Chelsea, and they were 2 with me and I said to Fred as soon as I seen the bees and 3 everybody knows this time of the year the bees are really 4 out there and I said to Fred, Have you got your epi-pen? 5 That's what he has to use -- carry with 6 him -- and he didn't have it. So I sat there for a while 7 and I said -- you know -- I thought what if somebody gets 8 stung back here and we got that long road out there. 9 Because the last time Fred got stung I could only keep 10 him in the car until I met the ambulance in Forest and 11 they had to put him on oxygen. 12 So I was afraid for that to happen so I 13 told him we are going to have to go home and take the 14 kids home. And I did -- like -- the kids got all upset 15 because they wanted to go swimming with the kids that was 16 there. 17 And Glenn and Dudley and the ones that was 18 there and they says, Well, why don't you come back later 19 on. We're going to have a fire and I said, Okay, we'll 20 come back later on. I'll take the kids home and then 21 we'll come back later on. 22 Q: And when you were there in the 23 afternoon, can you tell us how many people were in the 24 Park when you were there the second time? 25 A: There was no more than twelve (12).
241 Q: And -- 2 A: I try -- I try to remember everybody 3 and that's just about -- and that was kids, too. It was 4 probably about twelve (12). 5 Q: And do you -- did you see any rifles 6 or guns of any kind? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And did anyone speak to you about 9 rifles or guns of any kind? 10 A: No, they just said when I was in there 11 in the morning, they said, People are saying we've got 12 guns. We don't have no guns and Dudley had a stick, that 13 was all. 14 Q: And after you left the Park the second 15 time and returned to your home at Kettle Point, what did 16 you then do? 17 A: I went home and I -- I can't remember 18 -- I know I had some canning to do and I think it was 19 beets and I done them because you've got to get them 20 done. And then my -- by the time I got them done and we 21 were going to go back down there and my daughter come 22 along and she says, Mom, let's go play the ten o'clock 23 round of bingo in Sarnia. 24 And I said, Hey, I told the guys I'd be 25 back down the Park and then, being as I love bingo, it
251 got the best of me and I went to the bingo game and Fred 2 says, Well, me and Buck and will go down and visit with 3 them. So, that's what I did, I went to the bingo. 4 Q: So you went to -- to Sarnia with your 5 daughter, Gail, and your husband, Mr. Fred Bressette and 6 your son, Mr. Buck Bressette, returned to the Park. 7 A: They -- that -- when we left, that's 8 what Fred said, Well we're going to go down and visit the 9 guys at the Park and we'll be back later on. 10 Q: All right. And how old was your son - 11 A: Same -- 12 Q: Mr. Buck Bressette? 13 A: Same age as Dudley, they played hockey 14 together. 15 Q: And so he was thirty-seven (37)? 16 A: Around -- but I know him and Dudley, 17 they were hockey -- hockey playmates. They played right 18 from when they were kids. 19 Q: And can you tell us approximately 20 when the -- you left Sarnia? 21 A: Quarter after 12:00 when the bingo's 22 over. 23 Q: And when approximately did you get 24 back to Kettle Point? 25 A: It would have been about quarter to
261 1:00 -- between quarter to 1:00 and one o'clock. 2 Q: And did you observe anything unusual 3 on your way back to Kettle Point? 4 A: Yes, I did. I -- I was wondering 5 because there was two (2) police cars on the corner of 6 Lambton 26 and Lakeshore -- Lake Road I think it's 7 called. And then when we got up to Sunnydale there was 8 four (4) police cars on the corner of -- I think it's -- 9 I don't know the name of the road, but there's a 10 lakeshore settlement that's called Sunnydale. 11 And on the corner there right by the old 12 Hodgison (phonetic) farm, that's where -- like a 13 crossroad there and there was three (3) police -- three 14 (3) police cars together and then one (1) on the opposite 15 side of the road. I was thinking, what's all these 16 police cars doing? 17 Q: Cars? 18 A: Yes, police cars. 19 Q: If we could just stop for a minute. 20 I wanted to show you an exhibit and, Commissioner, it 21 will just take a moment to get -- 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Mrs. -- Mrs. Bressette, if I could
271 show you Exhibit 21 which is a map from -- a 2 topographical map that shows the -- the roads from Sarnia 3 to Forest. 4 Can you tell us how you came back? I'm 5 just trying to identify the corners that you saw the 6 police cars at. Was it between Sarnia and Forest or 7 Forest and Kettle Point? 8 A: Between Sarnia and Forest. I mean, 9 Sarnia and Kettle Point. 10 Q: Between -- did you go through Forest 11 on your way back? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Oh, okay. And when you said that -- 14 the first, did you go along Lakeshore Road? 15 A: Lakeshore -- I came Mondomin 16 (phonetic) and to Lakeshore Road Mondomin crosses right 17 over and becomes the Lakeshore Road and we turn right on 18 Lakeshore Road and once you're on Lakeshore Road you're 19 there till you come to Kettle Point. 20 Q: And the Lakeshore Road intersects 21 with Highway 21 at the mall at Kettle Point? 22 A: Just past the curve. 23 Q: Just past the curve at the mall? And 24 the first police cars that you saw were at the 25 intersection, can you tell us again?
281 A: Lampton 26 and Lakeshore. 2 Q: Okay. And unfortunately this map 3 doesn't give the -- the road numbers, but how far was 4 that from Kettle Point, approximately? 5 A: I -- I never hardly ever think of 6 miles, it's time. 7 Q: Well how much time then? 8 A: Twenty (20) minutes. 9 Q: Okay. And the next intersection that 10 you saw the police cars at along the road was? 11 A: At about fifteen (15) minutes -- no, 12 about ten (10) -- fifteen (15) minutes ride from there. 13 Q: And I think you said it was 14 Sunnydale? 15 A: Sunnydale. 16 Q: And -- so that's about..? 17 A: Fifteen (15) minutes from where I 18 first seen them. 19 Q: And so that's five (5) minutes or so 20 away from? 21 A: Kettle Point. 22 Q: Kettle Point. And then the third set 23 of cars? 24 A: No, there was just those at Lakeshore 25 when we come on to Lakeshore and then when we got to
291 Sunnydale and then when I got back to Kettle Point there 2 was two (2) sets. 3 Q: And at Kettle Point, was that at the 4 intersection near the mall? 5 A: When -- yes, at Kettle Point at the 6 little -- our little mall plaza. 7 Q: And were the police officers on -- 8 police cars on Highway 21 or on the -- the Concession 14, 9 I think you call it, the road down to the lake or on 10 Lakeshore? 11 A: I didn't -- there was no police cars 12 there. When I'd come up there was a lot of people. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And that's why I wondered what was 15 going on because at the corner of there where our mall 16 is, that was late at night and it was a lot a people 17 there and I pulled in there and I said, what's going on? 18 And they said, that's when they told me Dudley was shot 19 and Bernard got beat up. 20 Q: And how many people were in the area 21 near the mall, can you -- 22 A: It was lot of -- lot of people. I 23 would estimate probably hundred and fifty (150), two 24 hundred (200). 25 Q: And the -- was there any obstruction
301 on Highway 21 when you returned? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And what did -- who told you that Mr. 4 Dudley George had been shot and Mr. Bernard George had 5 been beaten up? 6 A: Chief Tom Bressette. 7 Q: And did Chief Bressette tell you 8 anything else? 9 A: No, he just said the police went into 10 the Park and Dudley was shot and Bernard got beat up. 11 Q: And what did you then do? 12 A: I asked him, Who's been down there to 13 see what's going on and to see what is -- what our people 14 -- what's going on down there? It was -- I wanted to 15 know what about my cousins, what really happened. Was 16 this gossip or what, we didn't know for sure and he said, 17 We can't get down there, it's all blocked off. 18 Q: And it's all -- did he tell you who 19 it was blocked off by? 20 A: He said, The police got it all 21 blocked off. You can't get in. 22 Q: And what did you then do? 23 A: I told him, I said, You're the chief 24 of this community. You have a right to see what's 25 happening on -- with our people on the other tract of
311 land. I said, You just can sit here and let people block 2 you out. You are the chief. You have a right to go down 3 there and find out what needs to be done. 4 Q: And what, if anything, did Mr. -- 5 Chief Tom Bressette ... 6 A: He said, You know I couldn't go down 7 there. I said, Well, somebody's gotta go. I said, I 8 will go. And he said -- he was by his car and he got on 9 -- got a cell phone out, and he was talking to a Carson 10 and then he said, Well, who's going down with you, and 11 there were just me there and I said, Well, I'll go down 12 by myself. 13 And then my daughter Gail was right -- 14 then she come along and -- because somebody said, Don't 15 go down there. And I said, That's my family down there 16 and I'm going down there. So Gail went with me and Tom 17 said to give them a piece of paper and I'll tell you, to 18 this day, I didn't look at it. He said, There's a phone 19 number on here and it's Carson's phone number and when 20 they stop you, you tell them Carson, whatever his title 21 was, but I know the name Carson, and they will let you 22 through. 23 Q: And you -- how old was your -- back 24 in 1995, was your daughter Gail? 25 A: Well, she was born in '56.
321 Q: So she was about thirty-nine (39) 2 years old. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And so you and your daughter left to 5 go to Stony Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And what were you driving when you 8 left? 9 A: My Mazda. 10 Q: And was it a four (4) door Mazda? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what did you do; you left the -- 13 the mall at Kettle Point? 14 A: Yes, I left the mall at Kettle Point 15 and I went and started to Stony Point and when I got to 16 Ravenswood -- 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: There was -- those barricades were 19 across the road and there was a police car on one side 20 and a police car on this side but there was nobody 21 standing round there. 22 So I stopped because that -- I call like 23 the carpenter's sawhorse was across the road. 24 Q: So the barricade was made out of -- 25 A: Yes.
331 Q: Out of a sawhorse type? 2 A: Right. It was a -- across the road 3 and I stopped and I said, hello, hello. And -- because 4 there was nobody there. And all of a sudden these real 5 bright white lights come on and they -- all of a sudden 6 there was -- I know there was three (3) police in the 7 front with guns at us and on the side, right at the car, 8 and on this side and they had them guns pointed at us. 9 Q: So that there were police officers in 10 front of the car and police officers on the passenger 11 side of the car -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And police officers on the driver's 14 side of the car? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And could you see what type of guns 17 did they have; were they rifles or a long gun? 18 A: They were a long gun. 19 Q: And do you know -- there were three 20 (3) at the front. Do you know how many were at each side 21 of the car -- 22 A: I know there was -- there was three 23 (3) on this side -- 24 Q: And "this side" being? 25 A: On my side and three (3) on Gail's
341 side and three (3) in the front. I didn't look in the 2 back. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: 'Cause I don't know where they came 5 from. I never seen them. They just -- when the lights 6 came on and you couldn't see for a minute, and then all 7 of a sudden they were there. 8 Q: And what -- did one of the police 9 officers speak to you? 10 A: After a while. We sat there and I 11 said, Why are you pointing those guns at us? And nobody 12 said anything and they just let us sit there like that 13 and I thought, Why did I bring my daughter? 14 And then finally one man said, what's your 15 name and I told him Bonnie Bressette and he says, do you 16 have -- was there another name given to you? 17 So, I just said, Carson, let us go 18 through. And they -- he stood there for a while, never 19 really answered. And then he said, let them through. So 20 they let -- and they let us through. 21 Q: And where did you go after you left 22 the barricade at Ravenswood? 23 A: When I left there, I was driving down 24 21 and right by Denny Scott's. All of a sudden these 25 policemen, they were on the road, was about four (4) or
351 six (6) of them. They were right on the road and I 2 stopped and they said, where are you going? I said, 3 Carson, let me go through here. 4 Q: Did you tell them that you were going 5 to the army camp? 6 A: Yes. And then they just went back 7 into the weeds. 8 Q: And now Denny Scott's, where is that 9 in relation to the intersection at Highway 21 and Army 10 Camp Road? 11 A: Denny Scott's is about -- from here 12 to Tim Horton's, from the Army Camp Road 13 Q: So, it's very close. It's -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- just west of the Army Camp Road. 16 And how many police officers stopped you there? 17 A: About four (4) or five (5) was there. 18 Q: Excuse me. And did they have guns 19 or -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- rifles? 22 A: Rifles. 23 Q: And what types of -- were they long 24 rifles or short -- 25 A: Yeah, they were the -- 'cause they
361 were holding them, those ones, they weren't pointing them 2 at us. 3 Q: They were just holding them this 4 time? 5 A: Like this. 6 Q: Okay. And you're describing holding 7 your hands. So they were holding their guns in front of 8 them? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And do you recall how many there 11 were? 12 A: About four (4) or five (5). 13 Q: And when you were at Ravenswood 14 barricade, if I could just back up for a second, did you 15 tell the people at the -- the officer at the barricade in 16 Ravenswood that you were going to the Army Camp? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And, after you passed through the 19 officers near Denny -- is it -- 20 A: Denny Scott's. I don't know who 21 lives there now. 22 Q: And did you see any other police 23 officers -- were there any other police officers on the 24 road on either Highway 21 or Army Camp Road? 25 A: No.
371 Q: And so, what -- you went to -- to the 2 entrance to the Army Camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And when you got in, you drove in, I 5 take it? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then what happened? 8 A: I went looking around for Glenn and 9 Judas and my relatives, and I -- and I come up and I 10 said, What happened, and Glenn told me what happened and 11 he said -- I said, well, what -- what are we -- I need to 12 do, and he said, we need to get the women and children 13 out of here. 14 Q: And when you say, Glenn, that's your 15 cousin, Mr. Glenn George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And so Mr. Glenn George said that he 18 wanted to get the women and children out of the Army 19 Camp? 20 A: Because they said they didn't know if 21 the police were going to come into the -- into the -- 22 into the Base. 23 Q: And, so what did you say to Mr. Glenn 24 George? 25 A: I just said, okay, I'll take -- take
381 them, and they -- there was -- whoever. I really don't 2 know they just climbed in the car and as soon as the car 3 -- it was a small car, as soon as it was full I left and 4 went to Kettle Point and let them off and went back 5 again. 6 Q: And the first, on the way back from 7 the Army Camp to Kettle Point, were you stopped by any 8 police officers? 9 A: When I -- there was nobody on the 10 Highway by Denny's, when I got to Ravenswood, the 11 barricades were up, but as soon as I pulled up there, 12 they just moved them aside, they never, never stopped me 13 or anything, just let me go on by. 14 Q: And, when you got back from your 15 first trip to Kettle Point, was the Highway 21 obstructed 16 at that point? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And then where did you -- did you go, 19 you went -- did you go to the Mall at Kettle Point? 20 A: I just pulled up at the Mall and 21 whoever was in the car got out and I left and went back 22 to Stony Point. 23 Q: And, when you got to Ravenswood, what 24 happened. 25 A: I stopped again, and I told them,
391 it's me, and I'm going back to Stony Point. And they 2 said -- just move them things aside again. 3 Q: And did the police officers point any 4 guns at you again? 5 A: Not that time. 6 Q: And, were you stopped between 7 Ravenswood and the Army Camp, were you stopped again? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And, you picked up more children and 10 women at the Army Camp? 11 A: Mm-hmm. Yes. 12 Q: And you returned to Kettle Point? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And at Ravenswood on your way back on 15 your second trip, what happened? 16 A: They just, as soon as I come, they 17 come along, I had kind of -- my car wasn't that quiet, 18 they then just moved those things aside. They didn't 19 even have -- they had them across there but when I was 20 just slowing, getting there slow, they just moved them 21 aside and I went on through. 22 Q: And did they have any bright lights 23 on at that point? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And how many trips did you make back
401 and forth to -- between the Army Camp and Kettle Point? 2 A: At least four (4). 3 Q: And when was your last trip? 4 A: Probably close to after 4:00 in the 5 morning. 6 Q: And on one of your trips back, was 7 there a bonfire on Highway 21? 8 A: Yes, it had started then, they were 9 starting a bonfire on Highway 21. 10 Q: And that was after your -- at least 11 after your second trip? 12 A: It was after my second trip. 13 Q: And, did you personally, on the 14 morning of September 7th, have any discussions with Mr. 15 Carson? 16 A: I wouldn't know Mr. Carson to this 17 day if I met him. I don't know who he is. It was just a 18 name that was given to me that night. 19 Q: And that was the name given to you by 20 -- by Chief Tom Bressette? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You need some water? 23 A: Yes. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
411 Q: And after the September 7th Mr. 2 Dudley George was buried at the Army Camp? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you and the community -- both 5 communities participated in the ceremonies with respect 6 to his burial? 7 A: I -- I was there at the burial but 8 there was so many people and I could -- I really don't 9 know who conducted Dudley's funeral, but there were 10 people from both tracts of land and as well as all other 11 First Nations there too. 12 Q: And after the funeral, did you 13 participate in -- with respect to the police or the 14 government or the SIU? 15 A: Chief Tom had asked -- told me that 16 because the SIU was going to be down in there, he asked - 17 - he said somebody had to be there and would I mind being 18 down there to observe what they were doing while they 19 were down there. 20 Q: And by observing, you were going to 21 act as an observer with the -- with the SIU? 22 A: Yeah, I just watched them all day. 23 Q: And that was in -- on September 20th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And if I could take you -- there's a
421 document book in front of you, Mrs. Bressette, and there 2 is a document at Tab 10 -- and that document dated 3 September 19th, and I may have misspoke myself. It was 4 either September 19th or September 20th you were there. 5 Were you there more than once? 6 A: Yes, they were -- I was there for 7 each day that they were there. 8 Q: Okay, and does your signature appear 9 on this document? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And your signature appears on the 12 first line? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I note that there's a reference 15 in the first paragraph that refers to you and Mr. Marvin 16 Connor as being liaisons. Is that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And Mr. Marvin Connor was -- can you 19 tell us who Mr. Marvin Connor is? 20 A: I just met him when we were at Stony 21 Point. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: So I don't know any -- any other than 24 who Marvin Connor is. I don't -- didn't ask him what he 25 does, who he -- who he is.
431 Q: Okay, and the -- perhaps this simply 2 refers to the -- the search with respect to the -- not 3 search, but the inspection of -- and search of the school 4 bus and a Chrysler New Yorker. Is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 7 exhibit. It would be P-45. 8 THE REGISTRAR: P-45, your Honour. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-45: Inspection and search report of 12 school bus and Chrysler New 13 Yorker. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: And the -- did -- were you ever 17 appointed as a mediator between the community -- your 18 community during this period of time? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And did you participate in any 21 discussions with the Federal Government with respect to a 22 memorandum of understanding? 23 A: I was at the meeting and it was at 24 Kettle Point in the old school where Minister Irwin came 25 and it was after Dudley was shot. He came down to Kettle
441 Point and they had -- I didn't participate in the 2 wording, I was at that meeting that resulted in the MOU. 3 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 7, is 4 that the Memorandum Of Understanding that resulted from 5 the meeting with Minister Irwin? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And perhaps if we could -- that was 8 signed on behalf of the Chippewa, Kettle and Stony Point 9 by Chief Thomas Bressette? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And Mr. Ovide Mercredi signed it on 12 behalf of -- as National Chief of the Assembly of First 13 Nations. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And Mr. Ron Irwin signed on behalf of 16 the Ministry of Indian and Northern Affairs. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And Mr. John Adams signed as Assistant 19 Deputy Minister of National Defence? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Perhaps we could mark the next 22 exhibit. It's P...? 23 THE REGISTRAR: Forty-six (46). 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-46: Memorandum of Understanding
451 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Forty-six (46). And at Tab 9 of the 3 book that's in front of you, there is a Memorandum of 4 Understanding entitled, "Memorandum of Understanding 5 between the First Nations People at Stony Point and the 6 Ontario Provincial Police." 7 Did you participate in any discussions 8 with respect to this Memorandum of Understanding? 9 A: Can I have a minute to read this -- 10 Q: Certainly. 11 A: -- because I -- I've signed it and I'm 12 looking for the date and everything on it. 13 Q: Did you -- is your signature on the 14 third page? 15 A: My -- yes, my signature's on the third 16 page. Okay, this was when the SIU were down -- going 17 down into where Dudley was shot and this was the -- the 18 Memorandum of Understanding that both myself and Marvin 19 signed. 20 Q: And that permitted the SIU to go down 21 to -- into the -- down to the -- into the Park and it was 22 -- and you and Mr. Connor signed as the observers. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that's dated September 17, 1995. 25 A: Yes.
461 Q: Perhaps that could be the next 2 exhibit. It would be 40...? 3 THE REGISTRAR: Forty-seven (47). 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-47: Memorandum of Understanding 6 between the First Nations People 7 at Stony Point and the Ontario 8 Provincial Police dated September 9 17, 1995 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Forty-seven (47). And so you and Mr. 13 Connor attended on three (3) days with the SIU. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you tell me, Mrs. Bressette, 16 what effect the events of September 6th and 7th had on 17 you? 18 A: I think the -- the effects of 19 September 6th and 7th -- I'm not the only one and -- that 20 has these -- and I -- I think about the people that were 21 in there. I was only in there always visiting. 22 Just a minute. 23 Q: We can take a short break, Mrs. 24 Bressette. 25 A: No, I want to -- I want to get this
471 done. 2 Our communities are always portrayed as -- 3 like they're trying to do here, that there was violence. 4 And when people are brought up as our parents brought us 5 up, and you try to think about everybody wants to be 6 happy, everybody wants to be safe, everybody wants to be 7 comfortable. 8 But when you went through situations like 9 our people did, and I did that night, when those 10 policemen just stood there with those guns pointed at us 11 and there was not another sole around anyplace, I was 12 never so scared in my whole life. 13 Indian people, that's what we're called by 14 outside society, we are not Indian people. We are the 15 Anishnaa people, Anishnaabek, and we were placed on this 16 land by the creator, and we were given this land to look 17 after. 18 And all these years, my dad did it, 19 probably his dad before that, and if I am not around, I'm 20 confident that my kids, that they will battle for what is 21 ours. Like so much has been taken from our Indian 22 people. Why should my dad have been never even allowed 23 to be buried where he wanted. 24 To this day I cannot even watch the 25 television when there's violence. And that's all you see
481 outside of our community is violence, it's not in our 2 communities, it's outside. 3 But to go through that, and I think of 4 Cully (phonetic) and everybody who went through that, 5 down at Stony Point, and nobody -- all the -- Judas, 6 Glenn and everybody, that's a heavy load to carry. Me, I 7 just visit there. They are my family. 8 But you don't know what -- what the 9 feeling is until you went through it yourself, and none 10 of you sitting here have went through it. 11 If I turn the T.V. on and I see any 12 violence, I shut it off. I don't -- I can't even -- I 13 bet you I haven't watched T.v. an hour in a year, because 14 until you've experienced violence, and I didn't -- we 15 don't experience among my people, the violence was 16 outside of us. 17 You had men, women and children down 18 there, and I took my children down there because I had no 19 fear, why would I take my children where the -- where the 20 newspapers and everything said there was guns. I knew 21 who was there, I knew there was no guns, they were my 22 family that was there. And any mother or grandmother 23 would never take their kids where it wasn't safe. 24 When those officers crossed there, they 25 knew that there was just women and kids and just the
491 family in there. 2 You talk about warriors, you don't even 3 know what warriors are in our society. Warriors are our 4 protectors, they're not the violence you portray in -- in 5 T.V. and that. But it's had such an affect on me, I've 6 got -- in our family we've got a lot of police officers. 7 But ever since then, I look at policemen 8 in a different way, because you look in a person's face 9 and you can see when somebody don't like you. 10 And because I was down there and it was 11 during the day and you could see the policemen, those 12 were a specially trained group of policemen, in my 13 opinion, that were there to deal with Anishnaabe people. 14 They weren't -- I didn't see not one officer from the 15 local area here. 16 But life has never been the same and it 17 will never be the same for the people that's there and I 18 want to see that community built up to what it should 19 have been if my mom and dad and my aunts and uncles and 20 grandma and grandpa had of been able to live on their own 21 land. 22 We signed a treaty to share the land with 23 the people in this area. Even today I don't tell my 24 neighbour to get off the property. That land was set 25 aside for the use and benefit of all of our people in our
501 community. That's why land don't -- it don't mean money 2 to any of us. It means our -- seven (7) generations will 3 be able to enjoy the land. It's not money to us. So 4 none of us have been able to enjoy that -- that land down 5 there. 6 When my daughter wanted to get married 7 back there in Stony Point on my dad's property, we had to 8 go through a whole big red tape to get -- just to have 9 people go in so she could be married back there. And 10 that should never in a country where the Creator put us 11 here on Turtle Island, North America for us to continue 12 living like this after all these years. 13 I feel bad but I also feel proud. If I 14 wasn't here tomorrow, my kids would pick this up. That's 15 why Anishnaabe people, you don't see us in other 16 countries, we didn't move to Africa, we didn't move to 17 France, we didn't move to Germany. We were placed here 18 in North America, Turtle Island, that's why the land 19 means so much to us. 20 And when I'm doing something I'm not doing 21 it for myself. I do it for my mom, my dad, all my 22 relatives and for the next generation that's not even 23 born. That's the way our life is. And it's hard that 24 experience at Stony Point, I never ever thought I'd see 25 the day that my family, all the boys and girls that was
511 down at Stony Point, would ever have to live with it. 2 I find it hard, it must be twice as hard 3 for them because they were there and I'm so proud of them 4 because they're not what was portrayed in the papers, in 5 the writeups and stuff like that and all the lies. 6 That's all I got to say but it's dumped everybody's life. 7 Q: Thank you very, Mrs. Bressette. 8 It might be appropriate, Commissioner, to 9 have the morning break. Mrs. Bressette, My Friends, the 10 other lawyers, will now have the opportunity to ask you 11 some questions. And Mr. Bill Henderson and Mr. Jonathan 12 George are counsel for Mrs. Bressette and so under our 13 rules, they will cross-examine last and then I can re- 14 examine after them. So if we could perhaps take a -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 16 break now. 17 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 18 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 19 20 --- Upon recessing at 11:08 a.m. 21 --- Upon resuming at 11:25 a.m. 22 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 24 resumed. Please be seated. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know it's
521 always difficult to make estimates but in keeping with 2 our practice I would like to try to get an indication of 3 who's expecting to cross-examine and how long you're 4 expecting to be just so that we can keep some idea of 5 where we're going. 6 Now who is expecting to cross-examine? 7 Mr. Orkin. Anybody else? Mr. Ross. Mr. Orkin before I 8 go on, how long might you be? 9 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I think we'll be two 10 (2) hours. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About two 12 (2) hours? 13 Mr. Ross...? 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Maximum one hour. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Maximum one 16 hour. The Government of On -- no the Government of 17 Ontario? 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I will be cross- 19 examining about twenty (20) minutes to half an hour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 21 and Mr. Myrka..? 22 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Commissioner, I 23 anticipate just over half an hour -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Half an hour to
531 forty-five minutes on behalf of OPP. 2 MR. BILL HOURIGAN: Fifteen (15) 3 fifteens on behalf of Mike Harris. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And 5 Aboriginal Legal Services, Mr. Eyolfson? 6 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Perhaps twenty (20) 7 minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 9 Henderson, you're at the end. 10 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Five (5) to 11 fifteen (15) I think, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. And that's just before Mr. Millar re- 14 examines. That's fine, if we keep to that -- we may not 15 finish today, but we'll see how it goes. 16 All right, Mr. Orkin, do you want to 17 start? 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 20 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Bressette. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: As you know I'm Andrew Orkin and I'm 23 co-counsel for the Dudley George estate and the Sam 24 George family group. 25 Mrs. Bressette, first of all, I would
541 like to acknowledge your lifetime of tireless service as 2 community worker, as a First Nations' Development 3 officer, as a citizen and an advocate for your people's 4 rights, as an educator, as a mother, as a grandmother, 5 as a councillor and as a chief. 6 I would also like to acknowledge how 7 difficult this is for you even all of these years after 8 the death of Dudley George to testify as you have and 9 thank you for your stamina and your willingness to be 10 questioned in this way. 11 You mentioned earlier that you had four 12 (4) children, Gail, Barbara, Buck and Shelly? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that you also now have how many 15 grandchildren? 16 A: Twenty-six (26). 17 Q: That's marvellous. I'm not going to 18 ask you to name them. It was a question I had planned 19 but I won't burden the record with twenty-six (26) 20 beautiful names. 21 You mentioned this morning that you'd 22 gone to Ipperwash Park at least twice on September 6th, 23 1995, once in the morning from maybe about 10:00 or 24 10:30 a.m. until what time? 25 A: Just a little after dinner -- dinner
551 -- a little after twelve o'clock, probably 12:30. 2 Q: And then again later in the 3 afternoon around 3:00 or 4:00 p.m? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And for how long? 6 A: We were there about two and a half 7 (2 1/2) hours. 8 Q: When you went there for the second 9 time, you brought along two (2) of your daughters and 10 eight (8) of your grandchildren? More or less? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: What were the ages of the 13 grandchildren you took with you? 14 A: The youngest was about two (2) years 15 old and the oldest was about fourteen (14) or fifteen 16 (15). 17 Q: How long have you known, or did you 18 know Dudley George? 19 A: All his life. 20 Q: All his life. So you knew him from 21 when he was a babe in arms? 22 A: I was his babysitter. 23 Q: Was Dudley his real given name, do 24 you know? 25 A: That's all I ever knew him as
561 Dudley. We -- that was -- that was our name, our 2 nickname for him. 3 Q: A nickname for him. That meant if 4 you were his babysitter and you'd known him since he was 5 a babe in arms, you knew him really well. 6 How often did you see him on -- on an 7 average basis as he grew up? 8 A: Not as often when -- when they moved 9 into town. I'd just see him in town but he played 10 hockey with my son. My husband had them as a hockey 11 team from when they were just starting on skates. 12 Q: I would like you to reflect with us 13 for a moment about what kind of a child and then what 14 kind of a young man and then what kind of a man Dudley 15 was. 16 He -- he was said to be a good natured 17 and joking personality? 18 A: He was. 19 Q: He was happy-go-lucky a lot of the 20 time? 21 A: I in all my life, even babysitting, 22 I never ever seen Dudley as anything except just the 23 ordinary happy-go-lucky kid. 24 Q: He loved children? 25 A: Yes.
571 Q: Would you like to tell us a little 2 more about that? 3 A: Dudley -- when I would see Dudley, 4 he was one that always would -- he didn't just talk to 5 me if one of the kids was with me, grandchildren -- he 6 would talk to them too. He wasn't one -- kids were very 7 important to Dudley because he was always playing around 8 with kids. He reminded me of a kid himself even as he 9 grew older. 10 Q: How did your grandchildren get along 11 with Dudley? 12 A: My grandchildren, the only time 13 they'd see Dudley is when they were with me and I never 14 took them all the time with me to Stony Point. It was 15 mostly myself just went down there so the last time my 16 grandchildren ever seen Dudley was the day he was shot. 17 Q: And they were pleased to him? 18 A: Yeah, they were all -- all around 19 there. 20 Q: Is it fair to say that Dudley would 21 never knowingly put your grandchildren or anyone else's 22 children in harm's way? 23 A: No. He would never. 24 Q: You last saw Dudley on the afternoon 25 of September 6th, 1995, a few hours before an OPP
581 officer shot and killed him? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: You, in fact, saw him a few times in 4 the morning and again in the afternoon? 5 A: The last time I seen Dudley, they 6 were sitting on the corner of the picnic table talking 7 to us, my husband and I. 8 Q: At what time approximately would 9 that have been? 10 A: When we were having supper. 11 Q: What kind of a mood was he in 12 through that day? And what was his -- his general 13 attitude? 14 A: He was proud of himself by having a 15 sit-in down there to create and let people know that 16 this was a burial ground for our ancestors and that 17 being part of creating this awareness and saying, This 18 has to stop. He was -- he was proud of himself. 19 Q: Had he lost his normal spirit of -- 20 of liveliness that day? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No. You know that Dudley George's 23 father was Reginald George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that his father was Robert
591 George? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that Robert George's father was 4 Albert George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that Albert George occupied a 7 portion of the lands that were taken and turned into -- 8 into Ipperwash Provincial Park, a large portion? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You were present yesterday and 11 through the course of -- of the recent time of the 12 Inquiry for the cross-examination of one of your 13 people's distinguished Native veterans, Clifford George, 14 by legal counsel representing some of the parties; but 15 particularly, legal counsel representing the Ontario 16 Provincial Police and the Ontario Provincial Police 17 Association? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You've testified that from your 20 knowledge of the people who were occupying the Park in 21 early September 1995. And from your knowledge of what 22 they were doing and saying on September 6th, 1995 that 23 as far as you were concerned there were no weapons or 24 firearms in the Park. 25 Is this correct?
601 A: Right. 2 Q: Mrs. Bressette, in their cross- 3 examination of Mr. George, the lawyers for the Ontario 4 Provincial Police and Ontario Provincial Police 5 Association made numerous references to whether Cliff 6 George knew or believed that there were weapons in the 7 Park or at the Base or at the occupiers' homes or even 8 elsewhere. 9 Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: They even showed some photographs of 12 gun-like objects that may have been found somewhere. 13 Did you hear that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you see that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Mrs. Bressette, in the nine (9) 18 years since Dudley George was shot by an OPP sniper, 19 have you ever heard any evidence that came from the OPP 20 or anyone else, which convinces you that Dudley George, 21 or any other of the First Nations' occupiers in the 22 Park, had weapons in the Park on the evening of 23 September 6th, 1995? 24 A: There is nothing and nothing will 25 ever make me believe that because I would never, and any
611 mother that thinks of her children and the protection of 2 them, 'cause I do, would ever take their children where 3 there was guns. 4 I took my children down there and my 5 grandchildren to show my cousins that me and the family 6 supported their sit-in down there. 7 Q: You are aware that after you left 8 the Park, in the evening of September the 6th, 1995, OPP 9 riot police and snipers confronted the occupiers on the 10 night with massive force? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you're well aware that a police 13 sniper, Sergeant Kenneth Deane shot an unarmed Dudley 14 George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you're aware that a number of 17 OPP were called out about having lied to a Court of Law, 18 which concluded that the OPP story about guns in the 19 Park was an after-the-fact story to disguise the fact 20 that an unarmed man had been shot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: In light of the three (3) things 23 that I've just mentioned, of which you're aware, do you 24 think that officials efforts are still being made by 25 some parties --
621 A: Yes -- 2 Q: -- to create and maintain an 3 impression in the public's mind that Dudley was armed on 4 the night of September the 6th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Do you feel what -- that what I 7 might now refer to as a chorus of guns, guns, guns, 8 guns, guns, which certain official parties have put 9 forward over the last few days, and over the last nine 10 (9) years, is an effort to villainize or to dishonour or 11 to stigmatize Dudley as violent? 12 A: It sure is, yes. 13 Q: Do you believe that that 14 stigmatization is an effort to stigmatize all of what 15 you have referred to as your family and your people? 16 A: It always is. There's always that 17 coming across Anishnaabe people. Anishnaabe people are 18 the easiest going people, other than that we wouldn't be 19 here. We've survived so much and we will continue to 20 survive. 21 Q: Mrs. Bressette, you testified in 22 your main testimony that as a little girl you 23 accompanied your father to meetings and took notes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that you were introduced to the
631 issue of the loss of your land and your father's land 2 and your grandfather and grandmother's land in the 3 pictures that we were shown yesterday. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you, as a very young person, 6 came to know that that was a very, very important 7 issue -- 8 A: Yes -- 9 Q: -- in your people's lives. And that 10 as you grew older, you witnessed your father working 11 tirelessly as a Councillor and as a community person 12 attempting to raise money and make efforts to get the 13 land back? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And to hire lawyers and to send 16 messages to any officials they possibly could to try and 17 get the land back? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that you, yourself, when your 20 father was no longer a Councillor, almost immediately 21 took up that task? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And started working tirelessly to 24 try to get your people's land back? 25 A: Yes.
641 Q: And that as a Chief, you went more 2 than once to Ottawa and met with officials who seemed 3 not to listen, or if they listened, seemed to do nothing 4 at all to help you get your land back? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that you tried to get meetings, 7 and that you tried to publicize, and that you tried to, 8 in an Anishnaabek way, expressed this grievance and this 9 concern over months and months and years and years to 10 try to work with other people to get your land back? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And yet, Mrs. Bressette, as the '60s 13 and the '70s and the '80s rolled on, and into the '90s, 14 your land had still not been returned? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: In spite of all of these efforts? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Would it be fair to say that this 19 left at the least, a sense of -- of frustration -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- in you and some of the other 22 people who were working so hard to try and turn this 23 around? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And would it be fair to say that
651 when Dudley and Cliff George and others finally occupied 2 the land, and when they said they were so proud of you, 3 that this was an end or a beginning of an end to that 4 sense of frustration? 5 A: I didn't say I was proud of me, I 6 said I was so proud of them. 7 Q: Yes, that's -- that was what -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- I meant in my question? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And this was a -- this was a turn 12 that perhaps promised an end to some of the frustration 13 that had been felt for all of those years and running 14 into decades? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I'd like to ask you 17 a few more questions about the events of September 6th 18 and, in doing so, I may have to touch on some of the 19 things you've already told us, in order to give it -- 20 give some of my questions context, but I'm going to do 21 my utmost to avoid repetition. 22 Tell us about the day on September the 23 6th, the weather, the sun and the sense in your mind 24 about that day? 25 A: The weather that day, it was a
661 really a nice day out, there was a nice breeze coming 2 off the lake, the sun was shining, it was just a 3 beautiful day. 4 And after I settled down, I really 5 enjoyed just sitting along down the beach, knowing that 6 Dudley and Glenn and Judas and them were down there, and 7 they really had a reason to be down there. 8 The weather -- the weather was ideal, it 9 was a beautiful fall day. 10 Q: So you were enjoying sitting out in 11 the sun at that picnic table where you sat with Glenn 12 George and with Dudley next to you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you found that the people who 15 were in the Park, Glen and Dudley and others -- and 16 others who were there, you've mentioned they were there 17 to assert that the land and the particular Parkland that 18 they were on was sacred land, including a burial ground? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Would it be fair to say that they 21 were present there, as you may have touched on earlier 22 this morning, present there asserting your people's 23 rights to your Treaty lands and to your burial ground 24 lands? 25 A: I think more than -- more than that.
671 It was just the fact that it was our ancestor's burial 2 grounds and that nobody should be on anybody's burial 3 grounds. 4 And everybody has a right to have a sit- 5 in or a protest, there's nothing wrong with that. It's 6 to create an awareness. When people have the ability to 7 address things and don't, then you have to rely on the 8 old system of creating awareness and having the media 9 come out. That's what that was, to let people know. 10 Q: And that's what they were doing 11 there? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: In the case of Dudley, in 14 particular, were you aware that he may actually have had 15 direct ancestors buried in the Park, because his great 16 grandfather, Albert George, lived on those lands? 17 A: Yes, but that's one (1) thing that's 18 also -- what I heard about that Park before from -- and 19 I've heard it from an elder that went way out west, he 20 was -- now he's now an elder, he's a hundred and nine 21 (109) years old. 22 And he was down in the area and he said 23 that when he was a young boy that was also known as 24 neutral territory where we had set aside land where 25 people could come and there was -- First Nations had
681 differences, they could always come there, knowing they 2 were safe and they were going to settle whatever issue 3 it was, it was the area for that too. It's sacred 4 ground. 5 Q: Now, with respect to their concerns 6 about that sacred ground, you asked them, did you not, 7 why they don't just go through the Courts with their 8 concerns? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what did -- 11 A: Courts don't -- Courts don't listen 12 to us, by the time we get anything into the Court system 13 the money that we -- we don't have the economy to 14 continually keep supporting the high legal costs of 15 anything. 16 We had the -- with us we've tried the 17 Court system for our beach frontage that was taken at 18 Stony Point -- or Kettle Point, for other land issues, 19 and by the time the Courts deal with it more time goes 20 around and more seasons. 21 Q: Did you talk to Dudley about that, 22 that day? 23 A: No, all my -- my only question was, 24 why don't we just go into the Courts? And they said, 25 we're here to let people know that this is our ancestors
691 burial ground and we want it stopped and -- so that was 2 their way of making it known. 3 Q: And they told you that they thought 4 this was perhaps the only way to make this known? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And they said that if they did not 7 do anything about it, people would just continue to use 8 this place where their grandfather's are buried, just as 9 a place to party and camp? 10 A: Yes. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And when you visited Dudley in the 15 Park, on September the 6th, he had -- still had some of 16 that happy go lucky attitude that day? 17 A: Never seen him without it. 18 Q: And that playfulness was the way 19 Dudley tended to respond in many situations? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Would you feel that this was true 22 even on September 6th, 1995, with the Police presence 23 outside of the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You said that Dudley told you about
701 some interaction he had with some OPP Officers in the 2 morning, before you arrived at the Park? 3 A: Yes. He told me about it. 4 Q: In fact, did he tell you that the 5 Police at the Park got mad at him now and then because 6 he was teasing them? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: We've seen some documents which 9 suggest that he or other occupiers of the Park were 10 mooning some of the OPP Officers. Are you -- were you 11 aware that Dudley had mooned any of the OPP Officers? 12 A: I didn't see it, but I heard it. 13 Q: Is that the kind of thing he might 14 have done? 15 A: Yes, he's pretty silly. He would do 16 things, that's what he told me, he said they got mad 17 when he mooned them. But, I wasn't -- it didn't happen 18 when I was there, he was just telling me. 19 Q: Did he mention that he and others 20 had run over to the fence from time to time, near where 21 the Police were standing? 22 A: He did it when I was there once, 23 just -- and they yelled at him. He just did it once and 24 then he come back and he said, see how mad they get at 25 me. And he sat back down on the table.
711 Q: So you saw him -- 2 A: Just run over there, he had a stick 3 and they yelled something at him, I just try to ignore, 4 they were behind me, 'cause I kept my back to them. 5 Q: But you saw this as a teasing 6 activity? 7 A: Yeah, that's the way he was, he 8 loved teasing. 9 Q: So in a way, Dudley was basically 10 telling the OPP Officers, boo or some kind of teasing -- 11 A: I think in his actions, he was 12 saying, you don't scare me and you know, he wasn't 13 afraid of them. 14 Q: Do you think he was also trying to 15 send them a message to get out of the area and leave 16 them and their lands alone? 17 A: Yes, that's why he was there. 18 Q: This morning you mentioned that 19 Dudley told you that one time when he ran up to where 20 the police were, one of the officers told him something 21 like, Dudley, you're going to be the first to get it 22 when we come in? 23 A: He didn't say when he ran up there. 24 He just told me, well, they told me when they get in 25 here that I'm the first that's going to get it. That's
721 what he had told me. 2 He didn't tell me he ran up there. He 3 just said he was sitting on the table and he said they 4 told me when they get in here, I'm going to be the first 5 to get it. 6 Q: Did Dudley take that question -- 7 that comment seriously? 8 A: No. Because I told him well aren't 9 you frightened and scared? And he says, no, he said 10 they're not going to bother us. They know we've got no 11 weapons in here. 12 Q: So he felt that the OPP officers 13 don't shoot people that are not armed? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did Dudley point out or mention to 16 you who had made that comment to him about he's going to 17 get it first? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did he point to any of the officers 20 standing outside the Park when -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: So it would have been around 3:30 or 23 4:00 that afternoon that you returned to the Park -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- with your daughters and
731 grandchildren? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you've said that you were quite 4 certain that they didn't have any guns in the Park when 5 you took your -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And you trusted that Dudley and 8 Glenn and the other occupiers would never have suggested 9 or invited you and your grandchildren back to the Park 10 if they thought there would be any danger to them? 11 A: I didn't say that. What I said was 12 my feelings -- I knew there was after talking with them 13 and they were comfortable, I was comfortable, there was 14 nobody with any weapons in the Park, so. 15 Q: And you and your grandchildren 16 proceeded to have a picnic with the supplies that you'd 17 bought. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: With Dudley and Glenn and the others 20 exactly as you'd planned? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And that you stayed for how long 23 before the yellow jackets made you leave? 24 A: Probably about -- we must have been 25 there about a little over two (2) hours, two and a half
741 (2 1/2) hours. 2 Q: So that might have been until 5:30 3 or 6:00. 4 A: Yeah, 5:30, six o'clock. 5 Q: And at the point you left what you 6 were most concerned about was the danger of insect 7 stings, bee stings. 8 A: Bee stings, yes. 9 Q: And after you'd loaded your 10 grandchildren back into the vehicle and your daughters, 11 and as you drove away from the Park and were leaving, 12 did any OPP officer or any other official that at a 13 roadblock or anywhere else, ask you why you were leaving 14 the Park with your daughters and grandchildren? 15 A: No. 16 Q: So nobody stopped you to inquire 17 whether there was a strategic reason you were leaving or 18 whether this was about bee stings and time to get the 19 brand new fourteen (14) month grandchild to bed? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I think you know 22 well that in spring 1995, Maynard and George -- and this 23 of course is the Maynard that's not to be confused with 24 Maynard Travis George or the other two (2) Maynard 25 George's and a number of his brothers and sisters filed
751 a civil lawsuit against Premier Mike Harris and the OPP 2 and a number of other defendants -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- arising out of the shooting of 5 Dudley George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And to help you understand my next 8 questions, let me explain that in that lawsuit starting 9 in 2001, Sam George's lawyers got to examine the 10 defendants in that lawsuit under oath in a process 11 called discovery. You may, if you watch TV, which you 12 told us that you don't very much, you -- you may have 13 heard it referred to as depositions. 14 But it's a process whereby, this is just 15 an explanation, the plaintiffs in a case get to ask 16 questions of the people that they're suing, under oath. 17 And that process began in 2001. 18 And in July 2001 under that process, 19 Murray Klippenstein, one of Sam's lawyers examined Chief 20 Superintendent Chris Coles of the OPP under oath to find 21 out what he knew about the circumstances surrounding the 22 death of Dudley George. 23 By way of further explanation, 24 Superintendent Coles was the Chief Superior of the 25 Inspector Carson that you mentioned who was the Incident
761 Commander in the Ipperwash area at the time. 2 What I'd like to do is read you a few 3 statements that were made by Chief Superintendent Coles, 4 under oath in that process for discovery, concerning the 5 situation in Ipperwash Park and the vicinity on the 6 afternoon of September 6th, around the time you were 7 visiting the Park. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: On the day that the OPP snipers shot 10 Dudley George. And I'd like to get your reaction to 11 each of these statements and to see whether you agree or 12 disagree with Chief Superintendent Coles' assessment of 13 how things were down there at the Park that day? Has my 14 explanation been reasonably clear? 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: In the first statement that Chief 17 Superintendent Coles made, Mr. Klippenstein, was asking 18 him about the reports that were prepared for the OPP's 19 Commissioner -- or the Commissioner's office. 20 And Inspector Coles stated and I believe 21 I've given Counsel copies of the -- of the transcripts, 22 and they've been distributed, have they. Okay. 23 I've got the page number of the document 24 itself, unfortunately I don't have the document number 25 with me and I'd understood we were going to keep
771 distributing copies. I'm sorry -- 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I didn't realize that 3 My Friend wanted me to distribute to everyone. We'll 4 have to make sure that there's no breakdown in 5 communications. But, I've got some extra ones so. 6 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: The quotations are 7 very short that I'm going to be using, but I'll refer to 8 the line numbers that I'm on. In on lines 22 to 23 on 9 page 64. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Page 64? 11 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 64. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The excerpt 16 I have starts at page 64. All right. Read it out and 17 we'll -- 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 20 Q: Inspector says: 21 "I was there on September the 6th and 22 all was quiet up to four o'clock in the 23 afternoon anyway." 24 In this case, "there" appears to be 25 Ipperwash Park or the command post or somewhere in that
781 vicinity. Mrs. Bressette, you were in the Park around 2 3:30 or 4:00 p.m. on September the 6th and earlier in 3 that day. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: It seems to me that the Chief 6 Superintendent Coles is expressing a similar view to the 7 one you were expressing, that all was quiet, at least up 8 to four o'clock in the afternoon, anyway? 9 A: Yes. The noise, if there was any 10 noise, was from my kids. 11 Q: Later in the same transcript, Chief 12 Superintendent Coles was discussing details of a 13 telephone call between senior OPP Officers around 2:00 14 p.m. on the afternoon of September the 6th and that call 15 is at page 74, lines 11 through 16. 16 And Superintendent Coles said at lines 19 17 through 25, on page 75: 18 "At this time the only situation that 19 we have is that some occupiers have 20 occupied the Provincial Park and there 21 are roadblocks that have been set up to 22 contain the situation." 23 Mrs. Bressette, do you agree with 24 Inspector Coles' statement, that the only situation that 25 existed at the Park at that time is that some occupiers
791 have occupied the Park and that some roadblocks have 2 been set up by the OPP? 3 A: That's on the morning of the -- 4 Q: That's in the early afternoon of 5 September the 6th -- 6 A: Early afternoon -- 7 Q: -- around 2:00 p.m. 8 A: Yes -- 9 Q: You got there at around 3:00, 3:30? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: On the next page, which is on page 12 76, Mr. Klippenstein asked Chief Superintendent Coles, 13 again in the context of that telephone call in the early 14 afternoon, he asked Superintendent Coles if it was fair 15 to say, that it didn't seem like there was anything 16 particularly happening, out there at the Park. 17 And he asked him whether that was fair 18 and Chief Superintendent Coles responded: 19 "That's fair." 20 Do you agree with Inspector Coles that it 21 was fair to say, that it didn't seem that there any 22 anything particularly happening out there at the Park, 23 in the early afternoon of September 6th, 1995? 24 A: The only difference would be with 25 the road block and the police across the road, other
801 than it was just an ordinary day. 2 Q: The last statement I'd like to read 3 is Mr. Klippenstein asking Chief Superintendent Coles, 4 and this is at page 76, lines 20 to 21, in which Mr. 5 Klippenstein asked: 6 "It didn't seem like an urgent 7 situation at that time?" 8 And Chief Superintendent Coles' response 9 was: 10 "No, not at that time," 11 which was the early afternoon. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Would you agree with his statement, 14 that it did not seem like an urgent situation in the 15 early afternoon at the Park that day? 16 A: Yes. 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, I'd 18 like to mark the transcript that you have with you there 19 as an exhibit at this time? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm not certain that 21 My Friend -- I don't know -- I'm not certain that we 22 need to mark the transcript. My Friend put the 23 statements to the witness and the witness has answered, 24 with respect, to the questions that My Friend put to 25 her.
811 And perhaps I could have a discussion 2 with My Friend afterwards, but it seems to me that -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 4 sufficient. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- we don't really 6 need to have the transcript marked. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does 8 anybody feel disadvantaged by not having the actual 9 transcript in front of you while the cross-examination 10 was taking place? Or did the reading out of the 11 questions suffice? 12 Mr. Ross...? 13 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I do, Mr. 14 Commissioner, I do not have a copy. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend, 16 Commissioner, read the questions verbatim. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. And 18 they're on the record. I can't see how having the 19 transcript in front of you wouldn't have made much 20 difference, that's why I'm asking -- I assume that there 21 would be no disadvantage to not actually having the 22 excerpt in front of you. But if somebody feels 23 otherwise, perhaps they would say so, and we'll get them 24 for you. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, we can get
821 copies at the lunch break for other counsel. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 3 Myrka was trying to say something, and I want to give 4 you a chance to say it. 5 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Good morning, Mr. 6 Commissioner. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning. 9 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Commission Counsel 10 has read my mind. All I would add to this is that from 11 the perspective of the Province, there is no need 12 whatsoever to make this transcript an exhibit. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: At this 14 time. 15 MR. WALTER MYRKA: The questions have 16 been read in, the answers, they're very short and sweet, 17 all we're going to do is clutter up the record. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 19 that's fair, but we'll let Mr. Orkin and Mr. Millar 20 speak about it and -- and see if they can resolve it 21 outside. I think that's sufficient myself, but... 22 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I'd like to apologize 23 for the misunderstanding that led to My Learned 24 Colleagues not having copies. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's
831 fine. 2 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: There was a 3 communication there, and I had anticipated that they 4 would. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 6 fine. 7 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, Ms. 8 Bressette. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It may 10 surprise you to learn, we have a copy machine in that 11 room there, but it doesn't always work as well as we 12 would like it to. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It takes a long time 14 to make copies. 15 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, I 16 knew it was there, and I thought I had accessed it. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, the 19 mis-communication, I apologize to My Friend that I 20 misunderstood and -- because I would have -- 21 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I share the 22 responsibility, thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 24 fine, let's move on. 25
841 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 2 Q: Mrs. Bressette, you talked earlier 3 today in your testimony in-chief, about what the meaning 4 of the reserve land at Stony Point to your people. 5 You described how your people were 6 reliant on the land, and self-reliant at Stony Point, is 7 that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That your parents had a cleared lot 10 and forest lands, and that your family maintained a 11 garden there? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: That your family and their 14 neighbours survived without social assistance and 15 largely lived off the land? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: That after your family was moved to 18 Kettle Point in 1942, your family no longer had a garden 19 -- garden allotment of its own, but had to rely on 20 others, is that correct? 21 A: The first year we -- grandma Flora 22 shared with us. 23 Q: And that the size of land allotment 24 that you managed to get at Kettle Point, your family, 25 was smaller than what -- what you'd had at Stony Point?
851 A: Yes. 2 Q: Was that adequate in the same way 3 for your family to be self sufficient? Off the land. 4 A: No, because my -- my dad relied an 5 awful lot on the bush, but in at Kettle Point at that 6 time he didn't have no bush. 7 Q: And it was not the particular land 8 to which your family had this deep attachment, when you 9 moved to Kettle Point? 10 A: I think everybody that -- and 11 through what I've learned, because I was just small and 12 mine was just being with mom and dad, but the attachment 13 that my aunts and my uncles and my grandparents had for 14 the land and all the other people that moved from there, 15 it was -- it was their life, their life was on that 16 land. 17 Q: You've been the Economic Development 18 Officer for the Kettle and Stony Point Band, as well as 19 its chief; is that correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I have an article 22 here which, I'm in the hands of the Commission as to how 23 we treat it on it being an exhibit or not, but it was 24 part of the documents that were circulated by Commission 25 Counsel, relating to his examination. It's Inquiry
861 Document Number 1007627, from Vol. V, headlined, "Land 2 Settlement Key to Survival." 3 And in this article, you're quoted as 4 stating that the land, I'm looking for the particular 5 quotation, forgive me, yes, 6 "Economic development on the Reserve is 7 also a key to building the Aboriginal 8 self image," 9 Said Kettle and Stony Point Economic 10 Development Officer, Bonnie Bressette. Is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the article talks at some length 13 about the relationship between economic development for 14 your people and the land, and in the article, Barbara 15 said: 16 "Land Administrator for the Kettle and 17 Stony Point band, says: 'In 1827 we 18 surrendered 2.2 million acres,'" 19 And then the article proceeds to talk 20 about the small amount of land that your people now try 21 to survive on and make do with. Is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Could you talk a little more about 24 the relationship between economic well-being and the 25 amount of land that your people have?
871 A: When we were met throughout the 2 years with Department of National Defence, they'd always 3 come up with some -- some way for us, a thing we had to 4 do to get our land back. And because I was Economic 5 Development Officer, they wanted to know if we gave, 6 close the Camp back -- close the Camp, gave the land 7 back to you, what would you do with it? 8 And the Band put together, we hired a 9 consultant out of, I think it was Winnipeg, who worked 10 with us and said how we could build an economy there. 11 Well, that was -- economy is important for people to 12 have a satisfactory, enjoyable life. They gotta have 13 jobs, good homes, be able to provide for their families, 14 and that's what we wanted to do, is build an economy so 15 that our -- people could have jobs. 16 We did the study, like our little mall 17 down at Kettle Point, we have a -- there's a grocery 18 there, there's a restaurant, a little shop -- gift shop, 19 there's an arcade in there. So we've the little mall 20 built, see, because we did studies, we've done lot of 21 studies. 22 At that time we knew that our community, 23 and we are just looking at our people, we are spending 24 $6 million a year in grocery stores. A third of that 25 went into Forest, into the IGA in Forest, and a third
881 went to Boyd's in Forest, and a third went either to 2 Sarnia or London, or everywhere. 3 So we're spending $6 million a year in 4 groceries, not getting one (1) job out of it. 5 So that's when we started to look at 6 putting businesses and services where jobs would result 7 and the dollar that I had I may spend at the grocery 8 store. You know the old story of a dollar going in the 9 -- creating different -- more jobs than one (1). 10 So that's what we were looking at but 11 now, later studies show even in living at Kettle Point, 12 we don't have -- and you've got to look at the people at 13 -- at Kettle Point and the people that moved from Stony 14 Point and now are large families. Like, if I looked at 15 the family my mom and dad brought from Stony Point there 16 was only my -- my sisters -- three (3) of my sisters and 17 myself. 18 Well, we've all got so many -- our family 19 has grown so much that those that are living Kettle 20 Point and look at -- that happened to every family that 21 moved to -- to Kettle Point from Stony Point. The land 22 base at Kettle Point is not going to support much more 23 growth because there's no place to put houses anymore 24 and we -- we're trying to build our economy on that 25 mall.
891 And we have since then purchased land 2 elsewhere. But the community at Stony Point, if it had 3 been left there, if they didn't force the families off 4 there in 1942, that land -- the people could have been 5 living there with very well satisfied homes -- not the 6 base there. They -- we had a whole community down there 7 of people that would have -- from Stony Point that were 8 living there. 9 They would have had a whole community and 10 I know they would have had an economic base built out of 11 what's at that -- on that tract of land. But that's -- 12 everything that we do when you talk about the returned 13 land. And now you've -- well you can see it's just a 14 stalling tactic for the government, every time they have 15 to address the fact they have to clean that up and 16 return it, is they come up with an excuse on what needs 17 to be done before they can even -- even the thing of the 18 cleanup we're looking at now. 19 I -- I worry about because I've had the 20 opportunity to look at information on what could 21 possibly at that base. I worry about our -- my family 22 that is at the base now if it's true what's in the 23 information that I've been able to see. But that whole 24 -- without an economic base, people become dependent on 25 the social system and the social system creates no happy
901 life for anybody whether they're on the reserve or off 2 the reserve. 3 The social system creates dependency and 4 then people are never happy in that dependency unless -- 5 if they're disabled or not well or -- it's fine for 6 that, but when it becomes the only way of existence 7 because there's no jobs. And that's what -- when we 8 look at building an economy, it's to build jobs to 9 support family -- family life. 10 Q: That's very helpful. So, to put this 11 another way, if you -- one might say in summary, if you 12 believe that your people, your Anishnaabek people should 13 be able to prosper and thrive socially and economically 14 and culturally as an Anishnaabek people, on the land 15 upon which you said you were originally placed. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you believe that in order to do 18 that and for your people to prosper and thrive, that 19 they need an adequate land and resource base to make 20 that possible and that that is -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- your peoples' birthright? 23 A: It is. It's -- I always think about 24 my ancestors who, when they signed the treaty, like 25 people will say, well, this is your reserve over here --
911 forty-three (43) or forty-four (44), whichever tract of 2 land you're talking about. They said was set aside for 3 the use and benefit of our people. 4 But, you know, when they signed the 5 treaty, my ancestors chose that piece of property, it 6 could be at Kettle Point or Stony Point. And I look and 7 I think, how wise they must have been to chose that 8 beautiful place at Kettle Point, the beautiful place at 9 Stony Point, they had to been wise because they didn't 10 have all the fancy stuff they have now to look at land. 11 But that's the land they choose to keep 12 for us when they sign the -- the treaty surrendering the 13 other land for the newcomers to live. 14 Q: And would it be fair to say that 15 that beautiful piece of land that you've just referred 16 to at Stony Point that in a way, the economic 17 development and survival of your Anishnaabek people 18 requires getting that Stony Point reserve back? 19 A: Yes, it does. It -- but it -- the 20 people that are living there, and there have been 21 Anishnaabek people that will decide on what goes on that 22 land, but they need that land to survive for the next 23 generations. 24 Q: Thank you. Mr. Commissioner, I 25 have, I think perhaps done with the revised plans in
921 another fifteen (15) or twenty (20) minutes. Shall I 2 proceed at this time? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, please 4 do. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 7 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I take it that you 8 know and are aware, that in 1928 there was a vote that 9 was held under the Procedures of the Indian Act and 10 supervised by the Indian Agent at the time, in which the 11 treaty lands which later became Ipperwash Provincial 12 Park were given up for sale by your community? 13 Were you aware of that vote? 14 A: I've read the records on it. 15 Q: Well of course, from 1928 that's 16 probably the best that you could have done. 17 Do you, today, as a -- as a leader in 18 your community, believe that that 1928 surrender vote 19 occasioned as it was, by the Indian Agent at the time, 20 was a fair and valid transfer of those treaty lands? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: Do you today, as a leader of your 23 community, accept that the 1928 surrender about which 24 we've just talked was morally and politically legitimate 25 or correct?
931 A: I believe it's one (1) of the many 2 wrongs that was done in -- for our people when they knew 3 how important land is for life. And when the new camer 4 -- comers came over to this land, that's why they shared 5 the land with them for their -- it's our meaning of the 6 land. The land is our life. Our life here today and 7 it's life for the future generations. 8 So I believe that's why people shared the 9 land. But that 1928 surrender, as far as I'm concerned, 10 was just another way -- another rip off that we have to 11 address. 12 Q: I'd like you to ask -- I'd like to 13 ask you to make an assumption with me for a moment. I'd 14 like you to assume that under Canadian or non-native 15 law, that Indian Treaty lands are under federal 16 jurisdiction and I think you knew that in going to 17 Ottawa as many times as you did, or you indicated that 18 you had. 19 But that a surrender process, such as the 20 1928 surrender ends that federal jurisdiction and under 21 Canadian non-native law, is said to then give the 22 Province legal jurisdiction and legal ownership of those 23 lands. 24 And this is under Canadian non-native 25 law. Would you like me to repeat that assumption?
941 A: Yes. 2 Q: The assumption I'm asking you to -- 3 to make with me, is a legal one. And it's that under 4 Canadian non-native law, Indian treaty lands and an 5 example of that would be the entire Stony Point Reserve, 6 are under federal jurisdiction. 7 A: Mmm hmm. 8 Q: But that a surrender process like 9 the 1928 surrender, brings that federal jurisdiction to 10 an end and gives the Province legal jurisdiction and 11 ownership of the land. 12 Now, this is an assumption I'm asking you 13 to join me in making -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 17 Q: -- and the -- the surrender which 18 you've just talked about and characterized in 1928 -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 20 do you want to -- 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sorry to interrupt 22 My -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- challenge 24 the assumption? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, I'm not
951 challenging, but I -- it seems to be My Friend's going 2 to ask this Witness -- you have to assume certain legal 3 principles and then ask and answer -- 4 Sorry, My Friend's asking the witness to 5 assume certain legal assumptions, which people may or 6 may not agree with, and then he's going to ask a 7 question that by necessity, will, I believe, require a 8 legal answer. And I'm not -- I don't believe that Mrs. 9 Bressette for all of her experience, is qualified to 10 give a legal answer. 11 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, if 12 that were correct I wouldn't have gone there, with 13 respect. And the -- the question I'm going to ask is 14 about fairness. 15 And what I'm simply trying to establish 16 for the purpose of this question is that the order of 17 government that we're dealing with on the question I'm 18 about to ask is not the Federal Government, but with 19 respect to the Park lands is the Provincial Government. 20 So the -- I may have unnecessarily complicated the 21 point. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 23 may have made it a little more -- 24 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: But -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- awkward,
961 but I'm not sure how to get that. I mean, I think 2 that's a fair question to ask her, I'm just not sure how 3 you -- how you got about -- how you went to it. 4 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Well, I apologize 5 both to the Witness and to the -- to the Commission for 6 having complicated that issue. And if I can put it in 7 another way, at My Learned Colleague's prompting, and 8 perhaps in a more helpful way, is that after the 1928 9 surrender under the system of laws that at least we on 10 this side of the river operate, the Provincial 11 Government became responsible for those Parklands and 12 claimed that it owned those lands. 13 And what I'd like to ask you is that 14 under the assumption -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 16 excuse me again, Mr. -- 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Yes. Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 19 Henderson may have some -- 20 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With all due 21 respect to My Friend, that question is not directed to 22 the evidence that you have heard as to the history, 23 assuming that the 1928 surrender is a matter of interest 24 to you in this Inquiry. 25 The Provincial Government did not assume
971 control, except in the constitutional sense, after the 2 1928 surrender. The Province of Ontario purchased the 3 land later, now that is the evidence that's before you. 4 I don't think it's fair to the witness to state the 5 proposition differently. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Mr. 7 Henderson has put it correctly, and now Mr. Myrka wants 8 -- one (1) assumption has raised a number of issues. 9 Mr. Myrka...? 10 MR. WALTER MYRKA: I'm confused. I'm 11 trying to understand the assumption and how it applies 12 to the facts of this case. I echo My Friend's point, 13 which is the Province was not involved, factually in the 14 matrix, until later. It is the 1928 surrender. 15 If My Friend is referring to the 16 Ipperwash Park lands, and I'm not sure that he is. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 18 is. 19 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Okay. If that's the 20 case, those lands aren't purchased by the Province until 21 some years later. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 23 MR. WALTER MYRKA: And I don't see the 24 remotest relevance to this Inquiry of this line of 25 questioning. Now, I haven't heard what the question is
981 going to be yet -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 3 MR. WALTER MYRKA: -- but the assumption 4 is making it difficult for me. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 6 MR. WALTER MYRKA: I think it's making 7 it difficult for other Counsel, and I think it's making 8 it, with respect, difficult for you, Mr. Commissioner, 9 and for this witness. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 11 perhaps we can simplify the question so we can all -- 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 13 going to simplify the questioning, by abandoning this 14 line of questioning. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That makes 16 it very simple, Mr. Orkin. 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Which makes it very, 18 very simple. I have no intention of causing these 19 difficulties. My question was going to be a very simple 20 one. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 22 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: And but it's one (1) 23 that we will pursue at another time. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 25 Mr. Orkin.
991 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 2 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I have just a few 3 minutes more of your time if I may take that. And 4 you've been extremely helpful and I'm grateful for that. 5 I would like to return to September the 6 6th before closing my cross-examination. After 7 midnight, and I believe that was between 12:00 and -- 8 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. on the night you shot -- Dudley 9 George was shot. You had arrived back at Kettle Point 10 after your bingo excursion to Sarnia, is that correct? 11 A: It would have been at last quarter 12 to 1:00, between quarter to 1:00 and one o'clock. 13 Q: Thank you. You pulled into the 14 Parking lot you said at the Plaza at Kettle Point 15 because did you not -- you noticed there were many 16 people in cars there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that you wanted to find out what 19 was going on? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You mentioned that you had stopped 22 there and got out of your car and that was where people 23 told you that an OPP officer had shot and killed Dudley? 24 A: They just said that the police moved 25 in at the Park and Dudley got shot and Bernard George
1001 got beaten up real bad. And then that's when I started 2 talking to Tom, Chief Tom. 3 Q: And when you spoke to Chief Tom 4 there were other people there with you? Or were you and 5 Chief Tom -- 6 A: I really didn't look around because 7 I wanted -- I wanted to know what was going down -- on 8 down at Stony Point. 9 Q: And you referred to part of the -- 10 of the conversation with Chief Tom but that was not the 11 whole part you referred this morning to part of your 12 conversation with Chief Tom -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- Bressette. But that was not your 15 whole conversation with him? 16 A: No. 17 Q: No. 18 A: I had asked him why -- why wasn't he 19 going down there, what was wrong, we had to get somebody 20 down there and he -- he said he could not go down there. 21 Q: During your conversation with the 22 Chief, did he mention to you that he had received a 23 disturbing telephone call earlier in that day from 24 someone in the Provincial Government? 25 A: Yes.
1011 Q: And he told you did he not, that the 2 person who called him was passing on something that 3 somebody connected with the Premier or the Premier had 4 said? 5 A: What he said was he got a telephone 6 call and he said he was trying -- he tried to get 7 something done because of this telephone call. But it 8 was where everybody was trying to figure out what we had 9 to do but yes, he had told me a telephone call had came. 10 He didn't tell me who called him or where 11 he was when he got the call. He just told me what the 12 call was about. 13 Q: And the Chief told you about what 14 was said to him on that phone call, did he? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Would you be willing this afternoon 17 to tell us what words Chief Tom Bressette said to you 18 then he was told? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 20 minute. 21 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: I hate to 22 interrupt. We're now clearly -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please come 24 forward and indicate on whose behalf you're asking. 25 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: Clearly asking
1021 questions that are calling for double, triple hearsay 2 here. And I just think we're going to hear from the 3 parties involved and I think that's a better course. 4 The parties who are involved in this alleged 5 conversation -- this witness was not involved. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry - 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We will be calling 8 Chief Thomas Bressette to the stand. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And he'll 10 be able to tell us about that call? 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sufficient 13 to know that she -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I anticipate that 15 we will be calling the other side of the call. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So this 17 telephone call will be put in evidence from both sides. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does that 20 satisfy you, Mr. Orkin? She knows that the call was 21 received. 22 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, if 23 -- I -- I suspect there may be some other views on this 24 and if I could reserve before responding to your 25 question, could we perhaps have views from other
1031 counsel? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good morning, Mr. 4 Commissioner. Peter Rosenthal. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning, Mr. Rosenthal. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: My -- my view is 8 the following: Hearsay evidence is admissible at this 9 Inquiry. We don't know what the other witnesses may or 10 may not say when they're called. Maybe Chief Tom 11 doesn't remember what -- what happened. This Witness 12 has some knowledge about it. It will shed light on what 13 happened. 14 We'll see at the end of the day how it 15 compares to the evidence of other witnesses and it's 16 clearly admissible at this proceeding. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, 18 there's no question that hearsay is admissible in an 19 Inquiry. This isn't a trial. I keep reminding you 20 that, it's not a trial. The rules are different -- very 21 different. As long as their evidence is useful, is 22 relevant, it's weight can be determined at a subsequent 23 time. 24 We've heard all kinds of hearsay an I 25 expect we will hear all kinds of hearsay as we go
1041 forward and I think it's going to come from all sides 2 and I really do not want to start making fine 3 distinctions with respect to hearsay unless it's 4 outrageous and this evidence is going to come out. 5 It's not as if we're not going to hear 6 it. If it comes out in a different format we can decide 7 what weight to give it or not at that time. I'm 8 prepared to hear it at this time. 9 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, Mr. 10 Commissioner -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: Thank you. 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- and I think the 13 last question I ask will -- will add to Mr. Rosenthal's 14 comments as to why I wish to go there. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 17 Q: Mrs. Bressette, to return to the 18 question, would you be willing now to share with us the 19 words that Chief Bressette said to you that he had been 20 told on that call? 21 A: When I -- he said -- I said, What 22 happened? And he -- I don't know -- he said, I got this 23 telephone call and he didn't tell me who the call was 24 from. He didn't tell me who made it, who told him or 25 anything and what he said was, he got a call that
1051 Premier Harris had said, I don't care what it takes, get 2 those fucking Indians out of that Park. 3 Q: So -- 4 A: And I just left it at that. I just - 5 - my concern was the people at Stony Point. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 7 understand that statement is not being put forward for 8 its truth. That's what she was told at that time. 9 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Yeah. 10 THE WITNESS: That's what I was told at 11 that time. 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: That's been 13 understood, Mr. Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 15 assuming that there will be other evidence so we'll be 16 able to evaluate it. 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, Mr. 18 Commissioner -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- for that reminder. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 23 Q: Mrs. -- Mrs. Bressette, one (1) last 24 question and this was the reason I wanted you, if you 25 were willing to share those words with us, is at the
1061 time did those words in any way affect your thinking and 2 the actions that you felt that you then needed to take 3 as a leader of your people -- as one of your peoples' 4 leaders in any way? 5 A: At that time my thoughts were not on 6 anything anybody said. My thoughts were on our -- our 7 people at Stony Point. I knew that later on we would be 8 addressing, as Chief and Council would be -- and the 9 leadership would be looking at what was said, if it was 10 said, and what needs to be done because of what was said 11 and that area of responsibility is with the Chief now. 12 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I thank you for your 13 patience and your stamina in dealing with all of these 14 questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. Who's the next cross-examiner on behalf of 17 Aazhoodena? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just for the record, 19 Mr. Hourigan spoke on behalf of Mr. Harris. It's 20 important for the record that when everyone comes up 21 that they identify themselves because the reporter 22 doesn't know everyone. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE:
1071 Q: Good afternoon, Mrs. Bressette. My 2 name is Jackie Esmonde, I'm here representing the 3 Aazhoodena and George family group. I'm sure you know 4 most of the people in that group -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- it includes Pierre George and a 7 number of Dan and Melva George's children. 8 I'd like to begin by asking you some 9 questions about the appropriation in 1942. Do you know 10 how many families were moved? 11 A: I think it was fourteen (14). 12 Q: Now, we heard in the Fifth Estate 13 program that was aired yesterday, they said 14 approximately one hundred and thirty (130) people were 15 moved. Does that sound right to you? 16 A: I really -- you know, I've never 17 thought about it as people, I just thought about as 18 families, so I really couldn't say a hundred and thirty 19 (130) or a hundred (100). 20 Q: And you've told us that there was an 21 individual who was paid to move your home? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And your family did not receive any 24 other funds, as a result of the forced move? 25 A: It showed the records, like dad
1081 never talked about it, but I've seen records where say 2 my dad might have got seventy (70) some dollars or 3 something like that, anybody else that moved a home. 4 Q: Were you given any money to purchase 5 land at Kettle Point? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And the land where the home was 8 placed, was that given to your family? 9 A: From my grandmother and grandfather 10 at Kettle Point. 11 Q: And you're aware that other families 12 who were forced to leave Stony Point had to purchase 13 land at Kettle Point? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And in your testimony yesterday, you 16 told us about going back to Stony Point from time to 17 time, with your family? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you said that there were trees 20 at the back of the reserve, that were damaged by 21 bullets? 22 A: I was -- meant anyplace in there. 23 Q: And do you know how those trees came 24 to be damaged by bullets? 25 A: I had -- I don't know, but I assume
1091 from when the army was -- the soldiers were shooting 2 around back there. 3 Q: You've also described for us a 4 number of the strategies that were employed to try to 5 have the land returned, and that you yourself made 6 several trips to Ottawa? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yes? And you met with -- you never 9 met with any high level bureaucrats, is what I 10 understand? 11 A: No, that's -- no. 12 Q: And in the Fifth Estate video, they 13 showed an individual from the Department of National 14 Defence, I believe his name may have been Mr. Hill? 15 A: John Hill. 16 Q: And did you meet with him? 17 A: I've met with John Hill. 18 Q: And I don't suppose you got very far 19 with him, based on the comments he made in that 20 documentary? 21 A: Oh, the John Hill you see on the doc 22 -- on the Fifth Estate video is not the John Hill that 23 was at a meeting at Kettle Point. 24 Q: Could you tell me about that? 25 A: The John Hill you see on the Estate
1101 is -- he came across like trying to say, well, we did 2 this, we did that, you know, and that's all, they're not 3 getting it back until we're ready to close it down. But 4 when he was at a meeting at Kettle Point in the ball 5 grounds, that's where they set it up, the tables and 6 stuff, it was outdoors. 7 And he was at that meeting, his attitude 8 was so promising to the people, because he was wanting 9 to get them to vote yes on this '81 -- in 1981 when they 10 offered I think it was two point (2.) -- oh, I'll 11 probably get it wrong, two point six (2.6) or two point 12 eight (2.8), something like that. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: And he wanted them so much to vote 15 yes on that, because they wanted to keep the base open 16 longer, oh he was really nice on that video, totally 17 different not on the video, he was totally different at 18 Kettle Point talking to the people about accept this 19 money, because it's the last time I'm coming back down 20 here and offering you any money. 21 We need that base, and we're going to 22 start future discussions on things that's going to 23 benefit you, and that's -- it was after that we started 24 to look into the catering business, because that came as 25 part of -- you know, more jobs in there, and stuff like
1111 that. 2 Oh, he was totally different at the 3 meeting, seeking the vote from the people of a yes, on 4 that money. And then totally opposite on the man you 5 seen on the video. And they did get a yes vote that 6 time, but you've got to remember there was still fifty- 7 four (54) of us in that vote, fifty-four (54) of us that 8 said no. 9 Q: And you told us that over the years 10 there were always excuses, why the land couldn't be 11 returned? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And I believe at some point you were 14 told that there was a problem because there were 15 unexploded munitions on the land? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you know when that started to 18 be a reason that was given why the land couldn't be 19 returned? 20 A: I think they've kind of always used 21 that -- that -- after their fences went up, that was 22 always kind of an excuse if you're -- if they come back 23 there and then I know times we would be back there and 24 they'd be yelling at us and telling us to get out of 25 there, there's a lot of explosives -- unexploded
1121 ammunition around here and you know you'd get blown up 2 and, you know, and they'd send us out of there. 3 But you know, if they have a -- that many 4 cadets running all over back there, why are they sending 5 me out of there? 6 Q: That's right, there were cadets that 7 were using the entire property as far as you knew? 8 A: Hmm mmm. 9 Q: And there were also people coming in 10 -- the military came in on weekends and had to -- all 11 over the land on those weekends? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it was also an area -- the land 14 was also being used as a summer vacation land for 15 military officers and their families? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: So it would appear that the 18 Department of National Defence was fairly unconcerned 19 about the safety of the cadets or the families that were 20 running all over the base? 21 In terms of unexploded munitions? 22 A: Well that was their excuse for all 23 this putting us out was unexploded ammunitions and we 24 did point out to them, well you have cadets in here all 25 the time and they said, well, we only have them in
1131 designated areas. 2 But when you're back in there, we used 3 to come -- come up from across or along the lake and -- 4 or come in off the other -- outer drive, then you see 5 cadets all over the place. 6 Q: Now in addition to the meetings with 7 Ottawa and discussions with government officials, there 8 were also demonstrations over the years. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: To demand the return of the land. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I'm sure you remember Dan and 13 Melva George being very active in holding demonstrations 14 at -- 15 A: Very. 16 Q: -- Stony Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Over the years? Sometimes just the 19 two (2) of them sitting out there? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: With their signs and they'd take 22 their children with them? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And there were other Stony Pointers 25 who had been forced to leave the land in 1942 who were
1141 also very active in demonstrations and letter writing 2 campaigns to have the land returned? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that would include your father? 5 A: Yes. All those brothers that was 6 their life. 7 Q: And Robert George and Clifford 8 George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you would recognize, now, that 11 the Stony Pointers who were forced off the land have a - 12 -have a distinct and separate interest in that land? 13 A: Okay, I -- I moved from there but -- 14 and I -- I respect anybody's ways but I look the way my 15 dad taught me and that was we had two (2) tracts of 16 land. You lived at Kettle Point or you lived at Stony 17 Point. 18 Q: You have seen the statement of 19 principles for negotiations that was prepared? I 20 believe that was shown to you yesterday? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And would you agree with me that one 23 (1) -- one (1) statement of principles, if you want to 24 turn to that -- 25 A: Which -- which page.
1151 Q: It's at Tab 5. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: One principle that's listed there 4 recognizes a distinct and separate interest in the Stony 5 Point land on the part of, I believe it says, Stony 6 Point locatees. 7 A: Yes, because all the -- all the 8 years I've been sitting there, we've always said there 9 would be no one down at Stony Point and the locatees 10 that were -- and we have all got copies of our parents' 11 location tickets that they would ever be taken from 12 them. 13 Q: I understand that you were on the 14 current negotiating team? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And as part of the negotiations for 17 the return of the land there was recently a pay out to 18 Elders? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you're aware that there are some 21 Stony Pointers who are extremely concerned about not 22 having information about those negotiations? 23 A: The -- 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Mr. 25 Commissioner, --
1161 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Henderson? 3 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With all respect 4 to My Friend, the -- the subject of the claims 5 negotiations is not a matter before this Commission. 6 This is 2004. 7 Councillor Bressette, of course, is one 8 member of the negotiating team. I'm not aware that 9 she's authorized to come forward and discuss those 10 negotiations in this forum and no such request has been 11 made of that negotiating team nor has it been before 12 chief in Counsel so I suggest that -- that unless 13 there's some pressing reason for doing so, that this 14 area be left alone. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 16 that's a correct statement of where we are with that 17 issue. 18 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: I can rephrase and 19 move on to another area. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 23 Q: You would agree with me that there 24 are differences of opinion? 25 A: There always -- there more than
1171 likely will always be. 2 Q: Now moving on to the date of 3 September 6th, 1995, can you tell me what the atmosphere 4 was like when you first went there in the morning? 5 A: To me? The atmosphere to me...? 6 Q: To you. 7 A: It was, I was kind of leery because 8 of, first of all, of the -- blockade on -- just off the 9 Highway, and then I thought, well, that's okay, that's 10 their business, so I went on in and then it was the 11 helicopter, even that kind of, I was thinking, they're 12 sure watching everything. 13 And it wasn't 'til the helicopter would 14 come down real low and I could see, and then it -- it 15 had become a kind of a eerie, scarey thing for me, not 16 knowing what was going on, 'til I was able to sit and 17 talk and have my crying jag. 18 It was -- it was kind of scarey to begin, 19 but it wasn't 'til after talking with Dudley and Glenn 20 and whoever else was around there, that it was okay, it 21 was -- the atmosphere among the people was good. 22 Q: And you've told us that there were 23 police officers on the road...? 24 A: Across the road. 25 Q: Across the road...
1181 A: There -- there -- it's not really a 2 road, I'd say it's a lane down to the beach, and they 3 were standing on -- along the road -- edge of that. 4 Q: And did you -- could you see if they 5 had -- if they were carrying weapons? 6 A: Yes, they had the long guns, the 7 rifles. 8 Q: And how were they holding them? 9 A: I don't know whether they were 10 standing there like that or whether they had them out, 11 but they did have -- they did have the guns there. 12 Q: And they had them out and visible? 13 A: Pardon? 14 Q: They had them out and visible, to 15 you? 16 A: Yeah, you could see them. 17 Q: Can you tell me why you felt so 18 confident that it was safe at the Park, that you could 19 bring your grandchildren down there for a picnic? 20 A: The police were on the opposite side 21 of the road and we are on this side over in the Park, 22 there was -- nobody was talking in anger, nobody was -- 23 they weren't yelling or -- nobody was mad, it -- there 24 was a good -- there was no -- I didn't sense no anger, 25 there was nothing around there that told me there was
1191 anything why I shouldn't bring the kids in. 2 Q: Now I'd like to get a little bit more 3 detail from you about the checkpoints that you went 4 through, during the day? 5 A: Mm-hmm. 6 Q: Now you've told us about that there 7 were some checkpoints when you first went to the Park 8 that morning...? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: There was -- sorry there was one 11 (1)...? 12 A: One (1). 13 Q: And could you describe the uniform 14 of the officers who were at that checkpoint? 15 A: It was a police uniform, but I just 16 never really -- I know they were policemen, they had the 17 -- they stopped you, and he asked me where I was going? 18 I said I'm going in to Stony Point down to the Park. 19 Q: And when you went back later in the 20 day, was it the same type of officers at the checkpoint? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And when you went in the evening 23 after you had heard of the shooting, when you saw there 24 were -- you described barricades? 25 A: Yes.
1201 Q: And was it the same type of officers 2 that were at those roadblocks, as you had seen earlier 3 in the day at the checkpoints? 4 A: They were the same as what I'd seen 5 down at the beach, now I don't know whether they all had 6 the same uniform on or not, but they were the same, 7 dressed the same as they were down at the beach across 8 from the Park. 9 Q: Now when you went back after they -- 10 you had heard of the shooting and you described that you 11 went back and forth quite a number of times? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do I understand from your evidence 14 that you were never -- your car was never searched? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And at various times you were just 17 waved through? 18 A: Okay, when I first come, no, but 19 when I was coming back even -- there was nobody at -- 20 along the highway there by Denny's anymore, it was just 21 up at the Ravenswood, the blockades was there, but -- 22 and I just -- as I was pulling up there and I told them 23 it's Bonnie Bressette, and they turned around and they 24 said okay, and they just moved those and I went on 25 through.
1211 But when I come back again, they were 2 there, but they -- I didn't -- I slowed down, 3 practically stopped, and then they would move them. So, 4 they knew it was my car going by there. 5 Q: So they weren't -- but after a while 6 they weren't stopping you to see who was in the car? 7 A: No. I told them I'm just picking up 8 kids and the women from there. 9 Q: And I just have one (1) other area 10 that I'd like to ask you questions about. 11 You've told us about how these events 12 affected you and your community. I'd like to ask you 13 about one (1) person in particular who's no longer with 14 us? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Ms. Melva George, she was your aunt, 17 I understand? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I understand that you were a 20 caregiver to her in her final years? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell us what impact the 23 events of September 6th had on her, if she conveyed 24 anything to you? 25 A: Aunt Melva was a -- a strong person,
1221 who throughout all her life fought for what would be -- 2 and we called it fought, even we didn't. She was very 3 vocal in -- for the return of the land. 4 I said a little while ago that I was 5 affected, well, anybody that had a gun pointed at their 6 head is affected. It's something that never leaves. 7 It's just like the Buckley's cough syrup I got to drink 8 right now to -- it stays with you, the taste. 9 But I -- I know my aunt and she's like my 10 mom, they had certain actions, and my aunt, whenever she 11 would start moving with her fingers like that, I'd say, 12 oh oh, I wonder what she's going to talk about now. 13 And I remember the first time she ever 14 brought it up it hurt me so much. She had said, do you 15 know I am so glad -- you know, I'm around there cooking 16 her breakfast, she said, I am so glad to be alive today. 17 We're always glad to be alive another day. She told me, 18 I thought they were going to kill me that night at 19 Northville, the night Dudley died, and that's when she 20 told me about what she went through. And my aunt would 21 have been, I think, probably close to seventy (70), if 22 not seventy (70) at that time. 23 And I spent a lot of time with her until 24 she left us, and left this world, and so many times, it 25 must have been like it gets with me and probably other
1231 people, it comes back when you least expect it, the 2 fear. 3 We were going to -- her and I liked 4 ragging, that's going to second-hand stores and looking 5 what you can find for your kids or material. She even 6 got scared one time when we were getting stopped by the 7 police and I think it was me going too fast, I picked up 8 a number of speeding tickets after that, probably -- my 9 car got known for picking up speeding tickets. I think 10 they were just doing that to me. 11 But, she got scared, she -- she did, she 12 got scared. And that -- that woman carried that fear 13 right until she left, and I -- I seen it, because even 14 when I was no longer caregiver, I used to go up and sit 15 with her. 16 But that -- that's what she had, this 17 fear, she thought she was going to be shot that night 18 because she had arthritis, and she couldn't put up her 19 hands and when they ordered her to put up her hands, she 20 -- she was -- that fear would come back quite often with 21 her. 22 And when you least expect it, you -- you 23 wouldn't even be talking about Stony Point and it would 24 come up. 25 Q: I expect we'll be hearing evidence
1241 from her daughter, Marcia Simon about the events you're 2 speaking about. But I thank you for telling us, that 3 she can't, how it affected her. Those are all my 4 questions. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 6 very much. Okay, is it a good point to adjourn for 7 lunch. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, sir. I was 9 going to suggest that we adjourn to 2:15? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 11 we do, I just want to say a word of caution to the 12 media. It may not be necessary but I'm going to say it 13 anyway. 14 This is an Inquiry, not a trial. It 15 sometimes looks like a trial, it sometimes feels like a 16 trial. But it is not a trial and an Inquiry has 17 strengths, it has potential weaknesses as well. We're 18 going to hear evidence in this Inquiry because an 19 Inquiry is essentially an investigation in public. 20 We're going to hear evidence from time to 21 time that hasn't been proven and it's important that the 22 media recognize, if they report on it, the distinction 23 between certain kinds of evidence, hearsay and other 24 things that haven't yet been proven. And that they not 25 report as if it were.
1251 So, I think we all know that, including 2 the media, I just want to keep that thought in our 3 minds. Thank you very much. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 5 adjourned until 2:15 p.m. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 12:57 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 2:15 p.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, I've had 14 a request by some of the parties that, to the extent 15 possible where a document is referred to, if we could 16 throw it up on the screen and we will try to do that 17 where we know what the document number is, if there is a 18 document number, but, 19 so ... 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 Okay, who is the next cross-examiner? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think it's Mr. Ross 23 is next. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross...? 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I believe that the
1261 Ontario Provincial Police Association wishes to be added 2 to the list. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. How 4 long does the Ontario Provincial Police Association 5 expect to be? 6 MS. KAREN JONES: About forty-five (45) 7 minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Thank you very much. Okay, Mr. Ross. 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 14 Q: Good day, Ms. Bressette. 15 A: Hello. 16 Q: First, I would like to thank you for 17 your evidence so far, and I would also compliment you on 18 what appears to be thirty-six (36) years of service on 19 Council, or as a Chief for your community. 20 Now, Ms. Bressette, as you're aware, I'm 21 representing quite a few of your nephews, Glenn George, 22 Robert George and others, who, for want of better terms 23 spearheaded the occupation of IR-43. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: I'd like to take you back a bit to
1271 your understanding of what it was like at Kettle Point 2 and Stony Point, probably from information passed down to 3 you by your parents, around the time of the taking of the 4 lands in 1942. 5 Now, my understanding is that before the 6 taking of the lands, what you had was two (2) communities 7 which involved themselves in reasonable discussion and 8 decision by consensus on matters in which they had a 9 joint interest. 10 Am I -- is my information correct in that 11 regard? 12 A: I -- I don't know whether it was by 13 consensus or how they handled it, but I know there was 14 meetings between, and representation from people on both 15 tracts of land. 16 Q: That is true, yes. Thank you. And 17 I'm further advised that these people constituted two (2) 18 self-relied communities, each with their own unique 19 attachment to the land on which they resided. 20 Is this your understanding? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So, that the people who resided at 23 Kettle Point were, for all intents and purposes, a 24 cohesive Kettle Point community with a special 25 relationship to IR-44?
1281 A: Yes, that -- because that's where 2 they lived. 3 Q: Yes, and to the same extent, those 4 who resided on IR 43, known as Stony Point, they 5 constituted the Stony Point community with a special 6 relationship to their lands as a community, IR-43. 7 A: Yes. But the thing that you got to 8 understand is, each one had a special relationship to the 9 land because as a Anishnaabek person, I've said it 10 before, the land is life for the families that's not even 11 here. 12 Q: Absolutely. I understand that and to 13 even take that a step further, the lands that we've 14 talked about, IR-43 and IR-44, they were never ever 15 surrendered as part of any treaty, were they? 16 A: They were -- my understanding was, 17 those tracts of land -- and I always said the person that 18 -- my ancestor that chose the land at Kettle Point and 19 the one that chose the land at Stony Point, they must 20 have been very smart people because on that land was 21 everything we needed to survive. 22 Q: And those two (2) parcels of land, 23 they were unceded territory? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: So, that -- and this is to the same
1291 extent as lands that were occupied by other Anishnaabe 2 groups which right -- now fall into the -- the United 3 States. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: So, that in 1942 when there was the 6 taking of lands at Stony Point, is it fair to say that it 7 resulted in grave inconvenience, both for the people 8 resident at Kettle Point, the day before the taking and 9 the people at Stony Point from whom the lands were taken. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: For example, the people at Stony Point 12 reacted to be uprooted from their lands that they'd 13 occupied from time immemorial to be put in another area 14 that they did not agree to go to; is that a fair 15 statement? 16 A: Yes, they did not agree to go to 17 Kettle Point. 18 Q: And to take it further, when the 19 surrender counc -- when the surrender meeting was held 20 at which the notion of selling Stony Point was rejected 21 it involved voters from both the Kettle Point land base 22 and the Stony Point land base; is this your 23 understanding? 24 A: That's my understanding. 25 Q: So, there was the two (2) groups who
1301 were saying to the Government, no, we do not want Stony 2 Point taken. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And after the decision had been taken 5 and the people from Stony Point uprooted, and for all 6 intents and purposes dropped onto the Kettle Point lands 7 to fend for themselves the best way they could, created 8 difficulties for the people normally resident at Kettle 9 Point. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And I take it there was a substantial 12 period of so-called adjustment as between those who were 13 taken from Stony Point and taken over to Kettle Point 14 along with those who normally resided at Kettle Point. 15 A: Say that again. 16 Q: A substantial period of adjustment for 17 the two (2) groups now relocated onto just the Kettle -- 18 Kettle Point lands. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Yeah. And is it fair to say that 21 there is still some of that adjustment which is still to 22 be completed? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Were you here for the evidence of Joan 25 Holmes, Ms. Bressette?
1311 A: No, I wasn't. 2 Q: Okay, I will still tell you some 3 things that -- one (1) thing that she mentioned. In her 4 research she says that as a result of the dislocation of 5 the people who were resident on Stony Point over to 6 Kettle Point that many residents of Kettle Point saw the 7 newcomers as refugees. That was the word that was used. 8 Have you heard that from time to time when 9 you were growing up? 10 A: Oh, I heard it, but, I don't know 11 where the word, I often wished we'd have looked where the 12 word, refugee, came from because it came, it's not -- not 13 in our language. I think maybe if we look -- the -- they 14 a lot of times, and there's still people in our community 15 at Kettle Point that -- I don't think they'll ever adjust 16 to the fact that they were moved from Stony Point. 17 I don't have to mention names, everybody 18 knows there's still people there -- 19 Q: Absolutely. So, right now, how many 20 ever of years it is; I think it's about what, sixty-two 21 (62) years after the fact, we have still adjustment 22 problems? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, tell me, in your experience as a 25 Chief and as a Councillor, are you satisfied that Canada
1321 made sufficient effort to address this adjustment problem 2 which has been festering for over sixty (60) years? 3 A: Which efforts? They haven't made no 4 efforts. 5 Q: I see. I guess that answers my 6 question in the superlative. 7 Now, as far as the lands taken pursuant to 8 the War Measures Act, at the time of their taking, I have 9 read the Order in Council, and Mr. Commissioner that 10 appears in Volume VIII, document 4000282. 11 And in the first paragraph it says clearly 12 that these lands are taken because Canada needs an 13 advanced training centre. Now, we have seen a Fifth 14 Estate video yesterday, which seems to show that these 15 lands were used more for entertainment than for any form 16 of real training, much less advanced training. 17 Would you agree with that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: A way to keep kids -- children, busy 20 during the summer? Agree with that so far? 21 A: I always like summer camps for kids. 22 But, they could -- there's so many other places they 23 could have done the same thing. They have army bases 24 elsewhere, but, I doubt it they're located along the lake 25 like Ston -- at Stony Point. I think that was -- to me
1331 that was the location and the fact that it -- it was home 2 and they didn't consider it our home, it was just 3 Anishnaabe people on there. 4 So that -- to me, in my opinion, that's 5 why it was -- the location and the terrain, it's -- it's 6 so beautiful back in there, you go for a ride back there 7 and then the fact that it was Anishnaabe property. 8 Q: It was easy to take? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Yes. So, in paragraph 1 of the Order 11 in Council, we had it say it was for an advanced training 12 centre. 13 Now, in your term as Chief or Councillor, 14 it has never been brought to your attention that there's 15 any change to the wording of that Order in Council to 16 authorize any use other than an advanced training centre; 17 am I correct with that? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And in paragraph 5 -- sorry, 20 paragraph 3 of the same Order in Council, it makes 21 reference to circumstances under which the land could be 22 returned. 23 Now, what I want to get at is, the land 24 was taken for a specific purpose, an advanced training 25 centre; correct so far?
1341 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, when it was no longer used for 3 an advanced training centre, I would take it, that the 4 purpose for taking had expired; would you agree with 5 that? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And these being special lands, never 8 ceded to the Crown, apart from the question of whether or 9 not, there was an authority to take in the first place, 10 the purpose for taking had expired and no effort was 11 made, to restore the lands to the Kettle Point people? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And as a matter of fact, I refer also 14 to Volume VIII, Document 4000287; that is a reply from 15 Indian Affairs to Mrs. Greenbird. 16 Have you ever seen that letter? 17 A: Yes, I recall it. I recall seeing 18 it. 19 Q: Where the writer is referring to so- 20 called Treaty obligations. That's what -- that's his 21 words, "so-called Treaty obligations". 22 Now in your experience as a Councilor 23 would you agree with me that there has been very little 24 change as far as the attitude toward the treaties are 25 concerned? Still, there's this "so-called Treaty
1351 obligation" attitude; would you agree with me? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: That letter goes on to say, speaking 4 to Mrs. Greenbird: 5 "You have treated fairly and generously 6 for upward of one hundred (100) years." 7 Now this was written in 1942 and you must 8 excuse my smiling because it just -- I -- I find it 9 almost like a crude joke. 10 So, they're suggesting that from about 11 1842 to 1942 at least you have been treated fairly and 12 generously. Just in the top of the second paragraph. 13 That's good -- yes, yes. 14 The second paragraph reads: 15 "The Indian people of Stony Point are 16 Canadians and loyal subjects of His 17 Majesty. As such, and in accordance 18 with their rights as Canadian citizens 19 and quite regardless of any so-called 20 treaty obligations you have been 21 treated fairly and generously for 22 upward of one hundred (100) years." 23 Could you tell me your view on that 24 statement and how fairly you think your people have been 25 treated for in excess of one hundred (100) years by
1361 Canada? 2 A: If we didn't have to live under the 3 conditions that our parents had to live under, life would 4 have been so much different. There is no -- they didn't 5 help anybody. I'll give you a fine example of what they 6 did. 7 They destroyed more families than anything 8 having to live like that. I'll speak of my grandmother 9 and my grandfather at Kettle Point, Morris and Flora 10 George. 11 Morris and Flora George had Uncle Bishop, 12 Aunt Phyllis, Uncle Alvin, Aunt Gussie (phonetic), Uncle 13 Puddy (phonetic), Uncle Cabbage, Aunt Melva, my mom. 14 There wasn't one thing that they needed, 15 that they weren't provided for. I can -- and I'm going 16 to do this before I kick the bucket, I'm going to draw a 17 picture so my kids can see what I was able to see. My 18 grandma and grandpa had a house and it was a two (2) 19 storey house and it had the little scrolls where one of 20 the carpenters at home cut through the front of houses 21 all nice. 22 Beside the house there was grape vines and 23 there was two (2) cherry trees out the back; the sour 24 cherries. I'm telling you there was everything there. 25 Peaches, pears, apples, plums. There was a chicken coop,
1371 there was a granary, there was a barn with pigs, horses, 2 cows. There was ducks, chickens. 3 They had a root house that was -- I just 4 loved that root house. You could go in there and there's 5 big bins were filled with all your food for the winter. 6 And there was a garden and my brother 7 still plants in the same garden that my grandmother Flora 8 planted in. My brother plants there now. There was 9 everything there. But when the Indian Agent come along 10 and told -- took my -- they left Uncle Bish because he 11 was needed to help grandma and grandpa, but all the rest 12 of them went to residential school. My mum and all of 13 them -- and aunt Melva and -- not -- Calvin, I call him 14 uncle cabbage, they were the youngest and they were the 15 last to go. 16 And my mother was quite a bit older than 17 they were and she was -- they were at residential school 18 and my mum told me because she was older she was needed 19 in the summertime to stay there and sew uniforms for the 20 kids, 'cause she was a good sewer, for the -- the kids 21 for the winter and then the older boys were kept on this 22 farm to farm, you know, what everything else has to with 23 farming, the planting, the harvesting and everything. 24 They were kept there and my mum didn't 25 have no English language when she went there. She only
1381 spoke Anishnaabe language and they were beaten whenever 2 they were -- spoke the language. 3 My mother, one time, she got a sewing -- 4 she was sewing, they had these big sewing machines and 5 she was sewing this thick material. And she said 6 needles, when she was pulling on that thick material - 7 and it happened to me a couple of years ago, same thing - 8 the needle went right through her thumb and she forgot 9 her English and starting yelling for help in the language 10 and the headmistress that was there told her she was not 11 going to help her till she spoke in English and my mum 12 said that was the hardest thing when she was hurting to 13 remember English to ask for help. 14 So in -- they all took the kids to 15 residential school and then it come time for Melva and 16 Uncle Calvin, he went -- he was a veteran. He went away 17 in the war, too. 18 When it come time for them to go, they 19 didn't even tell my mum her baby brother and baby sister 20 were brought to that residential school. 21 And because she was the only one working 22 in the kitchen, they told my mum there's a boy we're 23 worried about. They divided -- they had a fence in that 24 school dividing the girls from the boys and they told my 25 mother, there's a boy that we're kind of worried about.
1391 The boys come along by the fence when they -- nobody's 2 watching. They said he's going to get sick if he don't 3 eat. 4 And they said, if we get you girls to talk 5 to him and get him to eat. So when they brought him, it 6 was my mum's baby brother that they brought there to that 7 fence. So she used to have to sneak and they -- because 8 pant -- underpants are homemade and they had no pockets. 9 They didn't put pockets on nothing in them schools, 10 because you could put things in your pocket. 11 But they used to sneak bread out in 12 elastic on those big baggy things. I guess your fancy 13 name is pantaloons, I don't know what they are. 14 But that's where at -- they -- my mum had 15 to sneak food out because he would not eat with the boys. 16 And at night, those boys used to sneak my uncle to see my 17 mum so that he could learn to get by and I was talking 18 not too long ago and he was talking about how things were 19 for him. 20 Q: Pretty bad those days? 21 A: Yes, and that's what it did. 22 Destroyed a whole family when you had to live under 23 Indian Affairs, that's the way life was. There wasn't -- 24 they could dictate to you on practically who you could 25 have as a neighbour.
1401 They -- wherever -- there was people at 2 Kettle Point. They didn't even ask if they can move 3 somebody's house on there at Kettle Point, they just went 4 and moved it on that land and never even asking that 5 family if they could put that house here. 6 So all of that, there's -- there's nothing 7 in there of the talks about the -- the good life we had. 8 The only life we had good was what we built ourself out 9 of what my parents had. 10 Q: So I take it you do not agree, then, 11 that you've been treated fairly and generously? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: I see. Now, it goes on to say "in 14 common -- "in common with all Canadians, sorry -- 15 "in common with all other Canadians, 16 you've enjoyed full liberty, freedom of 17 speech and freedom of worship." 18 Do you agree with that statement? 19 A: No. No, no, sir. 20 Q: Okay. It goes on to say 21 "educational facilities have been 22 placed at your disposal and in time of 23 need, your material wants have been 24 supplied." 25 Do you agree with that?
1411 A: There was schools, there was one (1) 2 at Kettle Point and there was one (1) at Stoney Point, 3 but that was -- I could write you a book about some of 4 the teachers we had come in there. 5 But no, the education facilities were 6 there, although one (1) room building, and I don't know 7 what they mean by in -- 8 "in time of need your material wants 9 have been supplied." 10 That I don't even know what they would be 11 talking to her about. 12 Q: It goes on to say: 13 "You have been given a measure of self 14 government through your headmen..." 15 Which -- sorry: 16 "...whom you yourselves select and 17 under them the uninterrupted use and 18 enjoyment of your good lands." 19 These were the good lands at Kettle Point 20 and Stoney Point that you could use until the 21 interruption in 1942? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. He then goes on to say: 24 "These lands and your money and 25 personal property have been
1421 safeguarded on your behalf." 2 Were the lands being safeguarded on your 3 behalf? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And then he says: 6 "In other words, irrespective of any 7 Treaty, you have been treated in every 8 way as the good Canadian citizens that 9 you are." 10 What is your reaction to that statement? 11 A: Well, I -- I don't -- I don't 12 consider myself a Canadian citizen, I'm a North American 13 Anishnaabe. 14 Q: So that was the situation, in a 15 nutshell, up to the time of the move and immediately 16 after when the people from Stony Point were placed over 17 on the Kettle Point lands? 18 A: That was the situation, but it wasn't 19 as I see it. What he puts in the letter is his opinion, 20 I have my opinion. 21 Q: You do not agree with his opinion? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No. Ms. Bressette, in anticipation 24 for the examination of Ms. Marcia Simon, counsel was 25 provided with some documents, one (1) of which, document
1431 number 6, is a letter... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Just a moment please. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: For counsel, it is a letter and 10 signed by Marvin Travis George, and Chief George 11 addressed to Fred McGuire of National Defence. 12 Well they're finding the document, Ms. 13 Bressette, I'll tell you why I'm trying to get there. 14 There is a list which shows apparently -- which 15 apparently shows what was moved, what and who was moved 16 from Stony Point to Kettle Point. 17 And I'll ask that it be put up on page 2. 18 And the list reads: 19 "These are the homeowners in 1942 at 20 Stony Point Reserve Number 43. It is 21 John Elijah, Wellington Elijah, Marjory 22 Elijah." 23 You recognize those names? 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: As people who were living -- who were
1441 moved over from Stony to Kettle? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: There's also Joseph Johnson, Harry 4 George, and R. Pearl George. Do you recognize those 5 names also as having been moved over? 6 A: Right, yes. 7 Q: Then there's William George and Mabel 8 George. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Do you recognize -- yes? And then 11 we've got Stewart Elijah and Elizabeth Elijah. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Then there's Bruce George and Hilda 14 George. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Then there's Elizabeth MacKinnon 17 Johnson. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Then there's Moses George and Rosie 20 George. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Then Robert George and Laura George. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Sheldon Cloud and Jeanette Cloud. 25 A: Yes.
1451 Q: John Johnson and Mary Johnson. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: James White. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Hanna White and Joseph White. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Mrs. Lucy Cloud. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Dorothy Thomas and Leonard Thomas. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Julia Bressette and Earl Bressette. 12 A: Earl Oliver. 13 Q: Earl Oliver, sorry. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Simpson George and Fanny George. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then it goes on to read, 18 "Working relationship with Kettle Point 19 member resident on Stoney Point 1942. 20 Renting-owning land in principle from 21 Stoney Point IR-43, Archie Bressette 22 and Anna Bressette. 23 A: yes. 24 Q: You recognize those. And then there's 25 Gilford Henry. Recognize that name?
1461 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yeah, so although this list may not be 3 exhaustive, you recognize the names of those that I've 4 drawn to your attention as people who were moved from 5 Stony Point over to Kettle Point. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, Mrs. Bressette, do you hold the 8 view that there was an obligation to return those lands 9 after the war? 10 A: Yes, definitely. That's what my dad 11 told me. 12 Q: So just leaving apart whether or not 13 they should have been taken in the first place, you were 14 brought up with the understanding that they were to be 15 returned after the war? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now would you agree, Ms. Bressette, 18 that between 1942 and 1949 that there was a general 19 failure of the authorities, whoever they may be, to 20 meaningful negotiate in good faith any return of the 21 Stony Point lands or to arrive at any proper settlement? 22 A: That's true. 23 Q: And would you agree with me also that, 24 while on the one (1) hand, you had this failure of the 25 system to meet your expectations for the return of the
1471 land, at the same time there was growing frustration 2 within the community? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And please correct me if I'm wrong. I 5 believe that during your evidence when you were speaking 6 -- when you were responding to Mr. -- to Commission 7 Counsel, you indicated that there was a time when the -- 8 when the base which we will call for a moment, the lands 9 IR-43, were not really being used for a military purpose. 10 There was some time when that -- that situation existed. 11 A: Yes, they were going to close it down 12 in 1961. 13 Q: Now, with all these explosives that's 14 supposed to be there and all the cadets that were 15 supposed to -- that -- that occupied the premises and all 16 the great people from the marriage patch and the Club 17 Fed, have you ever heard of any accidental discharge of 18 any explosive resulting in hurt to anybody? 19 A: No, I haven't. 20 Q: So, wouldn't you agree with me then 21 that Indian Affairs in Canada were being particularly 22 kind and helpful when they decided they wanted to protect 23 the First Nation people from these terrible hazards at 24 Stony Point? 25 A: I agree with you.
1481 Q: And with this -- with this 2 frustration that was building up in the community, would 3 you agree with me that it resulted in a sense of 4 helplessness and/or hopelessness on the part of some 5 members of the community? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And when you think back at the letter 8 written by Mr. Chretien as Minister of Indian Affairs 9 back in 1972, that he foresaw the concept of an 10 occupation, is this consistent with the thinking that 11 members at Kettle Point had about re-occupying those 12 lands? 13 A: Yes, because I know there was another 14 time somebody important came into the area and they -- we 15 were up there again. But, no, I -- the letter from 16 Chretien clearly spelled out something has to be done. 17 Q: So, is it fair to say that in 1993, 18 when there was an entry upon a certain section of the 19 lands, it was not really surprising to the people at 20 Kettle Point? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Is it fair to say that they really 23 expected that something had to happen sooner or later, 24 that the status quo just couldn't continue forever? 25 A: Yes.
1491 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I understand also, that as part of 4 the efforts of the protestors in 1993, to bring attention 5 to the problem, that they organized a walk from Stony 6 Point to Ottawa to present a petition? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: They walked all the way and they got 9 there and they got no audience with anybody of real 10 power? 11 A: I wasn't on there, but I heard that's 12 what happened, or I was aware that's what happened after 13 I was told. 14 Q: And during that time, there were 15 efforts to involve the Member of Parliament for this 16 area, to see if they can get some resolution to the 17 problem? 18 A: Okay, like I said, I wasn't in on any 19 part, I just knew the walk was going to Ottawa and I 20 would assume they would have taken that -- that step to 21 see -- 22 Q: Yes -- 23 A: -- about support from the local 24 Member of Parliament. 25 Q: My information is that they was
1501 contacted somebody the name of Mrs. -- by the name of 2 Rosemary Urr (phonetic). Do you recognize that name? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And do you know whether or not there 5 was any contact with her appealing for assistance as far 6 as addressing this -- the Stony Point land return 7 problem? 8 A: She's been contacted numerous times 9 and she's aware of it, but when we're speaking 10 specifically with the walk, I don't know if she was 11 contacted at that time. 12 Q: All right. We'll I wasn't speaking 13 about the walk, I was speaking about general contact? 14 A: Oh, yes, she's -- she's totally aware 15 of our feelings about that land being given back. 16 Q: And I'm further given to understand 17 that there was some effort in 1993 for -- as between the 18 governance of the Chippewa, Kettle and Stony Point, Chief 19 and Council, as well as, the occupiers to try to work out 20 something whereby they can deal collectively with Ottawa 21 for the return of the land? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And it's my information, my -- the 24 position of my clients is that this discussion and 25 consensus as between the two (2) groups is necessary as
1511 part of the resolution of this entire problem; is this 2 consistent with -- and not speaking of, you know, as a 3 Councillor, as a member of the current Kettle Point 4 lands, formerly of Stony Point, that it needs discussion 5 between all sides with respect to return of the land? 6 A: There's no other way to do it. 7 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, my understanding is that after 12 the occupation in 1993, that the Department of National 13 Defense and the occupiers came to some negotiated 14 position whereby certain defined areas of land were 15 identified for Clifford George and the others to occupy. 16 Is this your understanding? 17 A: Okay, now repeat that, I -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- my mind wandered a minute there. 20 Q: My understanding is that in 1993, 21 after the initial occupation of the lands along 22 Highway 21, that there was negotiation between the 23 occupiers and National Defence, the members inside the 24 Base, whereby, as a result of which a certain of land on 25 Highway 21, there was, for all intents and purposes, a
1521 permission given by the Base Commander, to occupy a 2 section of the -- the lands bordering on Highway 21. 3 A: Yes. I wasn't there but I'm aware of 4 it. 5 Q: Yes, I understand, yes, thank you. I 6 understand further that part of the discussion, and tell 7 me whether or not this came to your attention one way or 8 another, was that there was a general belief: Leave them 9 and let them occupy for the summer, winter will come and 10 that will end the occupation. Did you hear of any 11 discussion of that nature? 12 A: No, I did not. 13 Q: Okay, thank you. Now, is it fair to 14 say then that after the occupation in 1993, it remained 15 really at quite a low level, not much activity in the 16 latter part of 1993 and throughout 1994, and through to 17 the first part of 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I'm not going to go 20 through a lot of the details of what happened in July, 21 August, and early September of 1995, I believe, that has 22 been fairly well covered. But there are one (1) or two 23 (2) things I want to ask. 24 One of them is, my information is that 25 part of what was happening as between the military and
1531 the occupiers, was that the military would have their 2 helicopters drop so low over the tables when some people 3 were having picnics at the park, on the -- on or about 4 August or September 1995, so as to blow food off the 5 tables. Were you aware of that? 6 A: Well, pretty near what's happening to 7 us, when were there they went so low, and then you had 8 all the dust you had to cope with. We just covered 9 everything up. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Ms. Bressette, I want to just read to 14 you one (1) little sentence of a position taken by my 15 clients, they characterized the occupation of the Base, 16 that incident, as part of a resistance by themselves to 17 being dispossessed of their lands and being denied the 18 opportunity to protect a sacred -- a sacred piece of land 19 which was the cemetery. 20 Is this consistent with your understanding 21 of the occupation? 22 A: That was my understanding of the 23 occupation. 24 Q: So they hadn't even -- 25 A: I don't call it occupation, it was a
1541 sit-in. 2 Q: A sit-in. So that these individuals 3 were not looking to get this land for themselves 4 personally, it was part of an effort by an interest group 5 to bring full attention to bear on the problem at the 6 site? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And an effort to alter the course of 9 Government policy towards themselves? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So it appears they take the position 12 that they were occupying tribal lands to achieve the 13 political goal of achieving Native sovereignty over those 14 lands? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And this is consistent with your 17 understanding? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And just a couple more things please, 24 Mrs. Bressette. 25 On a going forward basis, is there
1551 anything that you'd like to tell the Commissioner, in 2 your own mind, in your own -- in your own words of -- why 3 did this problem have to go so far? Let's separate into 4 two (2) things, because he's got two (2) sections on his 5 terms of reference. 6 Why did it have to go on until you had to 7 have a sit-in before you get attention, in your view? 8 A: I've seen this as a pattern for 9 years, because nobody listens. You remember reading 10 about a few scraggly Indians. Well there's not only a 11 few now, there's a lot of us, and we are educated, and we 12 know what is rightfully ours, and this would not have 13 happened if people would have been willing to sit down 14 and talk and find out what's the problem. You've seen 15 it, and I can't -- I don't know any examples, but nobody 16 -- they have a Cemeteries Act that protects everybody 17 else, but it don't protect us. 18 So when we know -- and we know that our 19 ancestors that's gone on, they were the teachers that 20 taught our people who teach us now. And our teachers 21 still say to us, you have to keep everything up in here, 22 and with your heart and that's why your feather is always 23 in your left hand closest to your heart. 24 And we have never had the opportunity to 25 really have talking circles, where everybody has a chance
1561 to say, the people that were sitting down there in the 2 park that day didn't even get a chance to say to anybody 3 why they were there. But that's the way I see it. 4 Who protects our burial grounds, if we 5 don't stand up and protect them? Any other place, you 6 look at the attention that was given to some place in St. 7 Thomas, other places where they have found burial 8 grounds. And our burial grounds are very important to 9 us. 10 Q: So, just to take it to the other 11 level now. We understand, as I understand your view, 12 there's a question about the taking of the land in '42? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: As I understand you further, there 15 was an obligation to return, which didn't happen? The -- 16 the microphone does not pick up -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yes. As I understand further yet, 19 this led to a substantial level of frustration, resulting 20 in a sit-in at the lands? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yes. Now, recognizing that all of 23 those things did happen, I must now ask to turn to 24 another section. After the sit-in occurred, what can the 25 Commission understand from you? You see, we understand
1571 all that could prevent the sit-in, but we now know the 2 sit in has happened? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Now, the sit in can go on for a very 5 long time, or it can come to the kind of end that it came 6 to. What can you tell the Commissioner is necessary to 7 prevent this violent end in the event of a sit-in? 8 A: Violence -- violence never solves 9 anything, that's why there was no violence on our side 10 down there, that don't solve anything. 11 The thing is for people to sit down and 12 say, okay, let's try to straighten this out in the best 13 interests of both parties. One (1), that there's nothing 14 that's going to be solved by them putting together forces 15 like this, because this -- this is one (1) claim. It's 16 not going to stop. We have a list of other things that 17 have to be addressed. 18 Not only -- in our area, you look at it 19 all over. And that does not solve it by going in there, 20 you have -- you have any place there was an occupation, 21 or what you call it, of Indian people, it's Anishnaabe 22 people. 23 And there is no way anything is going to 24 be resolved until the parties sit down and talk about it 25 and try to resolve it that way.
1581 One (1) of the things that I learned from 2 our elders is, it didn't matter how long it took, there 3 were -- when there was issues that had to be resolved, 4 they sat there 'til there was -- everybody come to a 5 level of agreement satisfactory, and it don't take no 6 violence to do that. 7 And it takes the feelings of the heart of 8 wanting to resolve what was wrong and knowing at some 9 times all wishes can't be granted. And -- but let's come 10 to some agreement on how to address where even a piece of 11 paper would have said, we have bones that's been dug up 12 that show this has been a burial ground that was all 13 covered up and that's what happens in life, when people 14 get covered up. 15 Dudley did not die in vain. He's going to 16 make changes. His death is going to make changes so that 17 the future with our educated people, our knowledgeable 18 people, we can know -- we know how to do our own research 19 and we know our ways and that's the way things are going 20 to be handled from now on. 21 We've got no other way, we have to go. 22 And sometimes this Country is going to realize -- and 23 it's been said by our older people, look at how many 24 complaints there is -- everybody in Canada has about 25 their government. And we have them about our Councils.
1591 Something is wrong. 2 What we need to do is look at the old 3 Anishnaabe way, how we governed things long before they 4 ever come out over here with -- even the voting. 5 I didn't want to run into Council for 6 another term. But one (1) elder told me, Bonnie you 7 don't have that right to withdraw your name. Right now 8 we're in a foreign way of doing things, because it's 9 under the Indian Act you vote. 10 In our way, your name is put there if 11 there's a job that needs to be done. And it will stay 12 there until the people tell you, you've done your job, 13 now we're going to put somebody else. 14 You know it's kind of a bit -- if you 15 think about the way people conduct themselves, our 16 politicians in Ottawa yell at each other and the way they 17 act up there. All that has to change, and it's time the 18 people who call themselves Canada citizens looked at that 19 conduct because you have to deal with things from the 20 heart and when you're yelling and shouting at each other, 21 that's not from the heart. 22 You know you have in our old way, we 23 haven't that way at Kettle Point, some times we do and 24 my brother has circles and we pass the feather around, or 25 some people call it a talking stick.
1601 And that gives everybody the opportunity 2 to say what they want to say and it's from their heart. 3 And it goes around and then you'll -- you keep going 4 around until you finally come to a way to resolve that. 5 And that's what -- nobody went to talk to them down at 6 the Park. 7 They just went in there and did what they 8 did. But, if somebody would have talked, somebody would 9 have listened and realized and admitted they knew there 10 was a burial ground there, this would not have happened. 11 And it's not -- it's not going to stop, 12 what we have to do is find a way to ensure that nothing 13 like this ever happens again. 14 Q: If I try to capsulize what you -- 15 this whole thing, would it be fair to say to the 16 Commissioner, that to prevent situations or sit-in's, 17 there's got to be a level of fairness, does that 18 capsulate? 19 A: A level of what? 20 Q: Fairness, a fairness, an honest 21 approach to a problem. 22 A: Yes, yes. 23 Q: And to prevent the violent outcome is 24 a matter of discussion and consensus? 25 A: Yes.
1611 Q: Thank you very much. Those are my 2 questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. Thank you. 5 I suppose Aboriginal Legal Services is 6 next. 7 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I ask 10 you to please try not to go over the ground that has been 11 adequately covered. 12 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Actually, in light 13 of what's been covered, we have no questions. Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 Thank you very much. 16 Then, I think just the Province of 17 Ontario. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTER MYRKA: 22 Q: Good afternoon, Mrs. Bressette. 23 A: Good afternoon. 24 Q: My name's Walter Myrka and I 25 represent the Province of Ontario in this Inquiry.
1621 Mr. Ross took you back to events in 1942 2 when Stony Point was taken over by the Federal 3 Government, and I wanted to ask you some questions about 4 that, but dealing specifically with some of your memories 5 of the cemetery, -- 6 A: Mmm hmm. 7 Q: -- that was within at Stony Point. 8 Now, the land was taken over. Stony Point was taken over 9 in 1942, you were five (5) years old at the time, were 10 you not? 11 A: Yes, I have an incredible memory. 12 Q: And we earlier saw the picture of you 13 being held in the arms of your uncle on the day your 14 house was moved. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Do you have any recollection 17 of visiting the cemetery at Stony Point with your family 18 before 1942? 19 A: No, I never went back to the cemetery 20 until when we would go in, when I would go in with my 21 dad, and sometimes with Sheldon. 22 Q: Okay. Do you think it's possible 23 that you might have gone in but just you were very young 24 and you may not remember? 25 A: No, I don't recall every going to a
1631 cemetery, the cemetery or -- we didn't call it cemetery, 2 we called it the graveyard in at Stony Point. The 3 earliest I can recall is when I went back with my dad, 4 when there was gravestones still there, and then we went 5 back later on and there wasn't. And that's when he -- he 6 was saying that they said that was one (1) area that was 7 -- nobody was supposed to go in and he said, look at -- 8 look at this. 9 Q: And do you recall how old you were at 10 the time? 11 A: I was probably about six (6) or six 12 and a half (6 1/2). 13 Q: So that would have been perhaps 14 during the war, not long after the Camp Ipperwash was set 15 up by the Federal Government? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And you -- 18 A: Because there was no fence over there 19 then. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: The fence came later. 22 Q: And you went in with your father...? 23 A: My father, sometimes my mom and the 24 rest of the kids, but most of the time with dad and 25 Sheldon Cloud.
1641 Q: Okay. 2 A: And Abe and Dan. 3 Q: Okay. And do you recall what the 4 Cemetery looked like the first time you saw it? 5 A: It's just small, it -- the first time 6 I saw it was when we went in and it was -- there was 7 probably about six (6) -- five (5) or six (6) of those 8 round -- somebody must have made them in the community, a 9 little headstone, they were round-like, and then when we 10 went back the next time there was only one (1) that I 11 seen laying on the ground. 12 Q: And how long after the first time you 13 were there, did you come back and -- and you saw just the 14 one (1) headstone lying on the ground? 15 A: I really don't know. It -- it'd be 16 quite a while later that I went back in. 17 Q: Okay. Would it have been two (2) 18 years, do you think, or -- 19 A: I'd say a year -- year and a half. 20 Q: All right, and did you go with your 21 father -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- that time as well? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Both these times, the
1651 headstones that you've described, you mention they were 2 round. Could you assist us in describing them further? 3 Would -- would they be, you know -- 4 A: They were shaped like this. 5 Q: So they would be a square shape? 6 A: No, the square ones were in the 7 ground. 8 Q: I see, okay. And were they -- were 9 they stone markers? 10 A: Yes, they were made of stone. Some I 11 -- when -- when I first seen them, they reminded me out 12 of -- something out of a magazine that you had seen or a 13 book but they weren't -- they weren't like the ones that 14 you would see if you went to buy a headstone in -- 15 Alapaws (phonetic) in Forest. They weren't fine granite 16 ones. 17 Q: Were they inscribed with the names of 18 the -- the people? 19 A: Yes. There was markings on them. 20 Q: So the soldiers at the army base, it 21 must -- it would have been obvious to them that these 22 were headstones. 23 A: Even with the fence there, it must 24 have been obvious to them because after a while the fence 25 was down.
1661 Q: Okay. The first time that you went 2 with your dad, was the fence still there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay, and the second time? 5 A: It was -- part of it was down. 6 Q: Okay, and what do you remember? Did 7 it look like it had parts that were missing or they'd 8 fallen over or what do you recall? 9 A: I just -- you know, things that don't 10 mean -- young person doesn't pay that much attention 11 except what you hear people say and it was my dad and 12 Sheldon -- if you knew my dad, my dad could -- I hate to 13 say it but he could swear when he got mad and that's why 14 you always remembered to listen. 15 So, to look around -- me, I was listening 16 to what he was saying and he was very upset. I wouldn't 17 repeat what he even said but he was really upset because 18 of somebody damaged the graveyard and they weren't 19 supposed to be in there. 20 Q: Now, I understand that in that 21 graveyard, you father's brother -- your father's sister - 22 A: Sister. 23 Q: -- that would have been your Aunt 24 Marlene, she was buried there. 25 A: Yes.
1671 Q: Okay, and would she have been buried 2 before 1942? 3 A: I have -- yes, it would have been -- 4 she was buried before 1942 because I don't even know -- 5 never even asked them but her grave was there so it was 6 there from -- before 1942 because Uncle Dan was the first 7 one that was buried there after that. 8 Q: And, so your Uncle Dan was buried 9 after your Aunt Marlene? 10 A: Her grave was there already in 1942. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And Uncle Dan just passed away. He 13 was the first one that was buried there that they allowed 14 people to go into the -- into the graveyard. 15 Q: Okay. And then your Uncle Abraham was 16 also buried there? 17 A: Just a few years ago. 18 Q: Okay, so these are recent. Now, do 19 you recall when you were with your father, and it's the 20 second time you were at the cemetery and now instead of 21 five (5) or six (6) headstones, there's only one (1) and 22 it's lying on the ground. 23 Was that the headstone of your Aunt 24 Marlene? 25 A: No, her grave, as far as I can
1681 remember when -- it was over in the one (1) corner and 2 it was a -- as marker in the ground. There was a flat 3 piece of cement in there. 4 Q: Okay, so was that marker still there, 5 do you recall? 6 A: It was then. I haven't been -- the 7 only time I've been back there is when my two (2) uncles 8 was buried there. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And you couldn't miss the graveyard 11 because every time we went in because we had to come in 12 the back way, we always went past the -- the graveyard. 13 Q: Now, after 1942, the first time you 14 went in with your -- with your father and the second 15 time, do you recall whether you could go in whenever you 16 liked because it was within the army camp, or did you 17 have -- have to ask anybody's permission to go in there? 18 A: Well, when I went back in the first 19 time, we didn't go -- we just drove in the first time we 20 drove in off of the side of the they call it Army Camp 21 Road now, we came in that way. 22 And there was soldier there and dad just 23 was going to get wood. So nobody bothered us. It wasn't 24 until after they put up fences along there that they said 25 that we had to go through the gate and we would get
1691 firewood and then after that, even that -- because we -- 2 they started in on the -- that's when the shallows become 3 dangerous for us to go in there. 4 And they said, you know, people weren't 5 going to be allowed back in there. So after that, we 6 came from the beach area. 7 Q: Okay. And generally, were you 8 allowed to go in from the beach area or did anybody 9 challenge you in any way? 10 A: Oh, yeah, they'd come and send us 11 out. 12 Q: They would force you to leave? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And these would be Canadian Military 15 personnel? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. The time you described where 18 there was only one (1) headstone left that had been 19 knocked over, your father was upset. Do you recall what 20 happened after that? That is, did you father complain to 21 anyone? Was -- was anything done by the Federal 22 Government to fix what was wrong? 23 A: I don't -- he probably brought it up 24 at Council, I haven't seen any records of it, but I know 25 they talked about it, because the men always would sit
1701 around and they would talk about -- when they had a 2 meeting and it didn't necessarily be Chief and Council, 3 it sometimes was meetings of people who wanted to get 4 together and try to hire a lawyer and find out how much 5 money they needed and what they had to do to earn the 6 money. 7 And they would talk about situations and 8 changes that they had noticed down at Stony Point since 9 they left there. They always kept an eye on it and they 10 seen the changes and they -- they would talk about them. 11 And that's more than likely where my dad talked about 12 them. 13 Q: Is the cemetery, in your view, 14 properly cared for today? 15 A: I haven't been back there, just like 16 I said, I've rode past and when I went back, I would see 17 that Uncle Abe's and Uncle Dan's -- that area, that in 18 the cemetery is kept by the people that are residing at 19 Aazhoodena. 20 Q: And indeed they've taken care of the 21 cemetery since they went in? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
1711 Q: In addition to the cemetery at Stony 2 Point, was there a graveyard at Kettle Point, as well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: A matter of fact, I know of two (2). 6 Q: And is some of your family buried 7 there, as well, your ancestors? 8 A: Yes, that's where my dad is buried. 9 Q: Okay. And if I recall your evidence, 10 your dad, because he was from Stony Point, his last 11 wishes would have included to be buried there, if 12 somebody would have let him be buried there? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And he died in 1968? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: So even in 1968, you were not being 17 permitted to bury people at the cemetery at Stony Point? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Did the Federal Government ever 20 provide you with a reason why you couldn't use that 21 burial ground during all those years? 22 A: Just the signs, as the signs say, 23 unexploded ammunition, you can't go back in there. 24 Q: So by implication, the suggestion 25 was, that the Federal Government in carrying on its
1721 military activities, that there may have been unexploded 2 ammunition even in the cemetery? 3 A: Well, that was always -- has always 4 been their excuse. Every time they -- people would even 5 -- it was the hardest thing for us to even get permission 6 prior to the occupation to go back in there and get 7 firewood and then even then when we went to get firewood, 8 you had the army right on our backs. 9 I remember they tried to kick me and my 10 husband out of there. They blamed us for cutting some 11 white ash that had fell in the swamp and he was yelling 12 at us to go and cut that wood that -- he said we're 13 cutting all over the place and he said we're to cut that 14 wood. 15 Well, even an Anishnaabe woman knows what 16 side the tree to cut her tree so that it don't flop in 17 the swamp, you know. Somebody else cut that tree, not 18 us. It was laying in the swamp. Whoever cut it couldn't 19 get it and -- 20 That -- that's what they would do. Even 21 when we went to get our wood, and then there was -- I 22 took Bessie -- Bessie Bressette and Rachel who were 23 actually from there. Bessie married a -- a man at Kettle 24 Point -- so did Rachel. 25 But they were elders and I used to take
1731 them to get their medicine and we had a hard time to get 2 back in there. They let us go back in but they sent a 3 jeep with two (2) soldiers to follow us around back in 4 there all these women was doing was picking our herbal 5 medicines. 6 Q: Do you remember approximately when 7 that was? 8 A: It was in the -- it was in the fall of 9 the year. I know that, and probably in -- in the early 10 seventies. 11 Q: Now, Mrs. Bressette, I understand 12 you've been on the Council -- you've been a Councillor 13 since 1968. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, particular to that period, 1968 16 and following, was the cemetery at Stony Point something 17 that was discussed at Council? 18 A: I think the way -- it's something 19 that's always been discussed but I don't think -- maybe 20 if we looked in our records there'd probably be a couple 21 of areas where we discussed and brought up the condition 22 of the -- of the graveyard in at Stony Point at that 23 time. 24 Q: And as part of that, because you're on 25 the Council, would you -- do you recall Council possibly
1741 writing the Department of Indian Affairs about that issue 2 or the Department of National Defence or somebody in 3 Ottawa trying to rectify those kinds of problems? 4 A: No, but I've sat at meetings where 5 it's been brought up, we'd meet with Department of 6 National Defence that the situation at the cemetery has 7 been brought up. 8 Q: And do I understand your evidence to 9 be that while you were a Councillor, the situation was 10 never satisfactorily addressed by Ottawa. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: Is that fair? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, I'm going to 15 move on to a different topic. I'm going to suggest this 16 is a good time for the afternoon break. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 Thank you very much. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 3:30 p.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 3:45 p.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now
1751 resumed. Please be seated. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Please carry 3 on. 4 MR. WALTER MYRKA: Thank you, 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. WALTER MYRKA: 8 Q: Mrs. Bressette, I'd like to take you 9 to September 6th and your first going into Ipperwash 10 Provincial Park and meeting with Dudley George and Glenn 11 and with Roderick. 12 Now, that first meeting that you had with 13 them, within the Park, do I understand that you had gone 14 to the Park because you heard of the sit-in, as you 15 described it. You knew that the people there were your 16 family. They were your relatives? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you were concerned for their 19 welfare? 20 A: No, I wanted to go down and find out 21 why they were in the Park. 22 Q: Okay. And you asked Dudley and Glenn 23 and Roderick why they were there, is that fair? 24 A: Glenn was the first one I sat down 25 with and then Dudley came over. I pulled my car up
1761 closest where Glenn was and I -- we were sitting there at 2 a table and then Dudley came over and then I was talking 3 to Roderick. 4 Q: And you were sitting at a picnic 5 table within the Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And while this was going on, 8 you described how there was a helicopter flying over? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, can you tell us, as best as you 11 can recall, what Dudley said to you about why he and the 12 others were there? 13 A: Because it was -- it was our 14 ancestors were buried there and they explained to me that 15 they had talked with -- and I don't know the man, his 16 name was Les, who run the Park and they told him about, 17 that they were going to come in there and be -- have this 18 sit-in, there and get this addressed, the fact that there 19 was a burial ground within the Park -- the area known as 20 the Park. 21 Q: Would this have been the three (3) of 22 them talking to you together? 23 A: Mostly it was Glenn and Dudley, now 24 and then for a while, Roderick would be there. And 25 that's all it was -- was just sitting and talking about
1771 what it was that they were -- they were aware of that 2 this was a burial ground. 3 Q: Now, do I understand correctly that 4 before you had this discussion with them, you weren't 5 aware of any burial ground within the Provincial Park? 6 A: The only -- what I was aware of, was 7 when it was -- I -- truthfully I did not know there was a 8 burial ground there. I knew they dug up remains because 9 it was mentioned by the older people when they were 10 building some kind of a pump house. 11 And then when Mrs. Matheson who was the 12 Park Superintendent's wife had mentioned that she had 13 heard that. 14 Q: Would that have been before the sit- 15 in in September? 16 A: Oh, yes, long before. 17 Q: Do you recall what she told you about 18 what had been found and -- 19 A: She had told me, Mrs. Matheson, said 20 they had -- when they were digging to put in a 21 foundation, that a skull and the remains of a body was 22 found in that area. 23 Q: Now, we've heard evidence earlier at 24 this Inquiry about a finding like that, that happened 25 around 1950. Might that have been what she was
1781 describing to you? 2 A: I think that may be what she was 3 describing, because before that building even went in 4 there, see we used to be able to drive from Kettle Point 5 all along the beach, and when you got to the area known 6 as the Park, there was a little creek there and it's not 7 there anymore, there used to be a creek there and there 8 was a wooden bridge across that creek. 9 And we'd go through what is known as the 10 Park and we'd get along the beach and we could go right 11 to Port Franks on there. But, that's when -- they put 12 that building in there, then the bridge was no longer 13 there. 14 Q: And was the building the pump house? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And when this was described to 17 you by Mrs. Matheson, well first of all, was it she who 18 told you or did you hear it from somebody else? 19 A: No, I heard it from her. But at the 20 time I paid no attention to it. 21 Q: Okay. Was it something that ever 22 came up at Council meetings before September 1995? 23 A: You mean about the -- finding the 24 remains when they were digging for the pump house? 25 Q: Yes.
1791 A: Not that I can recall in the time 2 that I was in Council. 3 Q: Okay. Now, we've also heard evidence 4 about a series of letters back in 1937. I believe that's 5 the year you were born. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And also in addition to the letters, 8 there was a band Council resolution about a burial ground 9 within the lands, which at the time were being developed 10 for the provincial park. 11 When did you first hear about those 12 letters, those documents? Do you know? 13 A: The first time I heard about those 14 letters was probably -- wasn't till recently I'd heard 15 about those letters. I didn't know about them before. 16 Q: Now you said during the questions 17 that Mr. Ross posed to you, you'd mentioned as I 18 understood it, you said that the burial ground issue was 19 covered up. Do I have that right? Is that fair? 20 A: I think it was. And 'cause -- why 21 would they -- if -- if it wasn't covered up, why didn't 22 they stop the building of that and check to find out what 23 was there? 24 Instead they just -- I had heard stories 25 and these -- and these are like -- these are just what I
1801 had heard that there was even artifacts and stuff taken 2 and placed at the University of Western Ontario and 3 different places that came from Stony Point, and from -- 4 in that area, but I can't say for sure, because I never 5 seen it, but I know I've heard of it. 6 Q: And where did you hear that from? 7 A: I heard -- I heard that from -- okay, 8 I -- one was heard from Mrs. Matheson that -- about the 9 skull and other bones. But I heard about stuff taken out 10 and put some place in -- in the University of Western 11 Ontario, I -- at one time we hired a person to do a video 12 on Kettle Point in regards to the -- the kettles there 13 and the kettles -- there's only two (2) places those 14 kettles are in the world and that's at Kettle Point and 15 New Zealand. 16 And we were -- because we have geologists 17 come down there by the buses we were try to put together 18 a package from them. 19 And this was some professor from -- he 20 work -- worked at Western and he was helping us put 21 together the content of what would be on this video and 22 he's the first one that ever mentioned that there was 23 somebody that was in the army and took some stuff out of 24 -- he had Indian artefacts out of -- out of Stony Point 25 Camp Ipperwash.
1811 Q: And when did he mention this to you? 2 A: Okay, it's -- somewhere in -- in the 3 late 70's or early 80's. 4 Q: And this -- was this something that 5 was talked about -- 6 A: No. 7 Q: -- in Council? 8 A: No. No, it wasn't talked about in 9 Council. And I never -- I never -- you heard about this 10 -- it's something that went on all the time and we did -- 11 at that time didn't know how to deal with it. 12 Now we know how to deal with it, because 13 there was also like, it was about the same time that 14 there was a burial ground that was -- they were digging 15 in Port Franks someplace, and there was a burial ground 16 there and it was an Anishnaabe burial ground, so there's 17 both about that same time. 18 But we didn't know what to do, and you 19 have to look at the circumstances in our situation is, 20 most of our people, especially in our area, were sent to 21 residential school and they didn't have our teachings 22 about our responsibilities. 23 So, a lot of that because it's like a 24 learning process for all of us, a lot of like, they had a 25 conference out in B.C. that, so they called it a
1821 repatriation, like, how do -- we've never had to deal 2 with that, how do you bury someone again? 3 And it came up about the incident at the 4 Bluewater Bridge, where the Omjinan (phonetic) people had 5 to do burials for people that was buried years ago, but 6 they had to be buried a certain way. 7 So those are -- it's all a learning 8 process and because our people were taken into 9 residential schools, they never had that chance to learn 10 our traditions, our culture, our responsibility, our 11 history, our language, and we have a big responsibility 12 to rebuild that, because you look -- you go someplace, 13 and I'm trying to give you an example, you go someplace 14 and the Scottish people are dancing and they have their - 15 - their kilts and they're playing their bagpipes and we 16 all sit back and we can enjoy that. 17 Well, the same is with us with our -- our 18 dance, our drum and our song and stuff like that. 19 Because that was almost lost, especially in this area, 20 it's taken -- our people have come a very long ways. We 21 now know our responsibilities and we now know the hard 22 part of reburying somebody when a grave is dug up. 23 But that's the way that I think that maybe 24 even myself never addressed it back there was because my 25 mom and dad didn't have -- really have anything, they
1831 didn't mention ever that happening, and we didn't know 2 it, we just know that our graveyard at home, people don't 3 go in there and -- and do damage and stuff like that. We 4 know that it's a place where our relatives are buried, so 5 we don't. 6 And we don't have a Cemeteries Act but 7 everybody else has a Cemeteries Act that protects their 8 Cemeteries. So, now we know what our responsibilities 9 are and we're -- we're building that to where -- and 10 we'll probably fall back an awful lot if it ever happens, 11 on the Omjinan First Nation, who have went through that 12 for the last few years. 13 Q: Now, in connection with that First 14 Nation, you mentioned the Bluewater Bridge. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: I'm not from around here, is that the 17 bridge in Sarnia? 18 A: Yeah. It's just over -- for the last 19 two (2) or three (3) years, the people there, because 20 when they started work building the expansion to the 21 bridge, they dug up burial site and that had to be -- all 22 those individuals had to be taken to Omjinan First Nation 23 for their burial there. 24 Q: And what's happened with the burial 25 ground that you described that was found at Port Franks?
1841 A: I don't know what, I think they just 2 quit digging, they just covered everything back up again. 3 Q: And for the record, Port Franks is 4 just up the road a little north of here? 5 A: Port Franks is just past Stony Point. 6 Q: Okay. You mentioned that with Dudley 7 and Glenn and Roderick, they mentioned the name, Les, to 8 you, one of the park employees? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Might that have been, because we have 11 one M&R employee... 12 A: Oh no, M&R employee, he worked for 13 the park. 14 Q: He worked for the park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: That would be M&R, for the Provincial 17 Park? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. We have one (1) individual who 20 was responsible for the Park and who likely will give 21 evidence here at this Inquiry, his name is Les Kobiashi 22 (phonetic). 23 Does that assist you in remembering who 24 they were talking about? 25 A: Yes, that's the name.
1851 Q: Okay. Did you ever deal with him? 2 Did you ever meet him? 3 A: No. I've seen him since then, but, 4 I've never really met him. 5 Q: Okay. And in all the years that 6 you've been on Council, if I could just deal with the 7 last point with you, is the responsibility of Council and 8 the Chief, in part, to represent the Band in dealing with 9 outside parties, such as the Ontario government or the 10 Federal government? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And so that if M&R staff, be it Mr. 13 Kobiashi, or someone else had a concern or an issue or 14 something that they wanted to raise with the First 15 Nation, would it have been appropriate for them to do 16 that through the Chief and Council? 17 A: It would have probably been a better 18 thing if -- now I don't know, because there's kind of a - 19 - with -- not all members of Council, there's kind of a 20 split with our people at Stoney Point and Band Council. 21 So it probably wouldn't have been because 22 we got to be able to work our issues out locally to come 23 to an agreement on addressing the differences in the best 24 interests of all. 25 Q: And --
1861 A: Sorry -- it might have created -- no 2 that's the wrong wording, the ones that occupied and went 3 for the sit-in, I was confident and I was comfortable 4 with them. 5 And it have -- probably the best way would 6 have been, if Ontario and the people there at the sit-in 7 and whoever from Council would have met, and resolved 8 that. But, they didn't allow that time to take place. 9 Q: Well, when you say Council, are you 10 referring to the Council at Kettle? 11 A: Yeah, whoever would have come. 12 Q: Let me just ask you mention that in 13 September of '95, there were about twelve (12) people 14 within Ipperwash Park, as far you could determine? 15 A: When I was there that day, there was 16 twelve (12) probably no more than that. And then we -- 17 with my kids, that would have been -- there was just 18 about as many come out of my van as what was there. 19 Q: Did you have any sense, when you were 20 there that day, was there one (1) person or persons, who 21 could speak for everybody else, within that group? 22 A: If I would talk with anybody, it 23 would be Judas -- Roderick and Glenn. 24 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Bressette, 25 those are my questions.
1871 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much. I think we're up to the OPP. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 5 Q: Thank you Mr. Commissioner. Good 6 afternoon, Mrs. Bressette. 7 A: Good afternoon. 8 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and as 9 Justice Linden has indicated I act for the OPP. 10 I want to begin, by asking you about some 11 of your evidence yesterday. You indicated the fact that 12 there was a time when the OPP made use of the firing 13 range at Stoney Point, did I have that correct? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: And I should -- and I'm sorry, Madam 16 Reporter gets frustrated with all of us when they don't 17 remind witnesses that they have to respond verbally. 18 A: Oh, yes. 19 Q: Thank you. All right. And I should 20 indicate to you at the outset I don't take issue with 21 that, all right? Your awareness that the OPP made use of 22 the firing range, was that personal knowledge to the -- 23 to the extent that you actually observed it or did you 24 learn about that through others? 25 A: My sister was a cook there.
1881 Q: All right. So, I take it what you're 2 telling me is that your sister could -- 3 A: And when you rode by, if they were out 4 there you could see them. 5 Q: You could see them. All right. Did 6 you actually see them? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay, fair enough. Now, was it your 9 understanding that they appeared to be using it for 10 training purposes or did you know the purpose for which 11 it was being used? 12 A: No, my understanding from my parents 13 and that was that -- that base was to be used for -- 14 well, as long as the army needed it -- for military 15 purposes. 16 Q: I understand. My -- my question to 17 you was poorly worded. My question was, to the effect: 18 Was it your understanding that the OPP were using the 19 range for training purposes for their own officers? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. Now, and I gather that this 22 occurred in the -- what I would call -- the very early 23 1990s. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And as you indicated yesterday, either
1891 expressly or implicitly, this was of a concern to you and 2 to the people who were interested in Stony Point. 3 A: Yes, because I didn't consider that 4 military purposes. 5 Q: All right. I'm going to suggest to 6 you that there may very well have been another concern 7 and that was that the use by the OPP of the firing range 8 may serve to validate the need to keep the base 9 operational. 10 In other words, if the Federal Government 11 saw that the OPP was using it for that purpose that may 12 give them another excuse that they would pass on to the 13 people interested in Stony Point that they could not 14 return the land to you. 15 A: It could have been another excuse but 16 common sense would have told them; $6 million that's an 17 awful lot for target practice because that's what it 18 cost. $6 million was their budget they needed to keep 19 that base open. 20 Q: I understand. Were you aware at any 21 time about somebody from the First Nations community 22 contacting the OPP to express the concern over their use 23 of the firing range? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. So, then I gather then you
1901 wouldn't be aware of whether or not the concern that I 2 just articulated for you was ever conveyed -- conveyed to 3 the OPP? 4 A: No, I wouldn't. I was not aware of 5 any of it. 6 Q: That's fair. Fair to say that the use 7 of that firing range ended prior to 1993 -- by the OPP. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Thank you. All right. And I gather 10 then from what you're telling us, you don't have any 11 knowledge, either directly or indirectly as to why that 12 came to be? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. If I were to suggest to 15 you that -- that the OPP heard and listened, indeed 16 listened carefully to the concerns expressed in this 17 issue, and for that reason terminated the use of the 18 range, you couldn't comment on that one (1) way or the 19 other. 20 A: I couldn't comment on that. 21 Q: All right. Yesterday in your 22 evidence, Mrs. Bressette, My Friend, Mr. Millar led you 23 through a general Band Council meeting that took place on 24 August 1, 1995. 25 A: Yes.
1911 Q: And if you turn to the black book 2 beside you at Tab 3, you'll see a document and I wonder, 3 Mr. Registrar, if Exhibit P-43 could be placed before the 4 Commissioner. Thank you very much. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm looking 6 at a hard copy of it -- 7 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but, I 10 mean, we should have it up on the screen if we can. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Just wait a 15 moment until we put it up on the screen so that my 16 colleagues can follow along with us. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 21 Q: There we go. Now we see from the face 22 of these notes, that a meeting took place during the 23 evening of August the 1st, 1995 for about four and a 24 quarter (4 1/4) hours, commencing at seven o'clock that 25 night; that fair, Mrs. Bressette?
1921 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And we see, as a result of the list 4 at the top of the notes, we know who was in attendance 5 and we know, as you've already indicated that you were in 6 attendance on that evening, ma'am. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right, thank you. My Friend, Mr. 9 Millar is reminding me that the people at the top of the 10 page that are noted represent the Councillors and the 11 chief who were present. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. But as I understood it, 14 when I was reading through the notes, clearly there were 15 other members of the Kettle and Stony Point band that 16 were not only present but they -- indeed, they 17 participated in the meeting. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And their voices were recorded in 20 notes that are contained in the document before you. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And as you told us 23 yesterday, Mrs. Bressette, the purpose of the meeting was 24 to find a healthy and constructive way to deal with 25 differences that inevitably arise in a community when a
1931 difficult issue faces its members. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Is that a fair way of putting it? 4 And you also mentioned yesterday, that during the course 5 of the meeting, there was some members of the Kettle and 6 Stony Point band who raised concerns about the presence 7 of non-band members at Stony Point -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do I have that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And I'd like to take you, if I 12 might, to a number of excerpts relating to those 13 individuals who expressed their views and I just want to 14 ask you a little bit about each. And if we could begin, 15 please, I'd like to take you to page 7. 16 And I'm curious, Mrs. Bressette, from a 17 purely administrative procedural perspective, are the 18 band Council meetings, are they tape recorded? 19 A: We -- we don't tape record them, we 20 have a recorder there. 21 Q: Well, the stenographer reporter 22 there -- 23 A: Okay, we must have had a tape 24 recorder for this meeting. 25 Q: I was going to say --
1941 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- otherwise that individual has a 3 miraculous ability to capture a great deal of content. 4 A: Yes. They -- this would have done -- 5 been done by a tape recorder and then transcribed. 6 Q: And it would be fair to say that the 7 reason that this particular meeting was taped is that 8 those present recognized its importance, and therefore it 9 would be necessary to ensure that there was an accurate 10 capturing of what everyone had to say that night? 11 A: Repeat that, please. 12 Q: It was a rather long question. Would 13 it be fair to say that the reason that this particular 14 meeting was audio taped is that the Councillors and the 15 Chief recognized that the meeting was of sufficient 16 importance and relevance that it would be necessary and 17 appropriate to audio tape it to ensure that everybody's 18 views were accurately captured. 19 A: Yes, that's probably why we done it 20 because a lot of people will say, I didn't say that. 21 Q: Exactly. Okay. If I could take you 22 then to page 7 and at the bottom of the page there is an 23 individual whose voice is heard and it's identified 24 initially as "First Woman" and then I'm having a bit of 25 trouble reading the handwritten notation beside it.
1951 Does it say, "Marja George"? 2 A: Marja George. 3 Q: How do you spell Marja? 4 A: M-A-R-J-A. 5 Q: All right. And if we turn the page -- 6 I'm just pausing for a moment -- she is not a -- a 7 Councillor, is that correct? 8 A: No, she isn't. 9 Q: She's -- so she's a member of the Band 10 Council? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Excuse me. Sorry, a member of the 13 Band. I just repeated myself. She's a member of the 14 Band? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. When towards the end of 17 her comments, she raises a number of questions and then 18 she ends with the following: 19 "With great sorrow, I don't feel safe 20 to go on to Stony Point. Fear because 21 of other Anishnaabe brought in to 22 strongarm, represent criminal element. 23 We are Ojibway. We can have land 24 returned peacefully." 25 Now, first of all, I should ask in
1961 fairness, does that represent an accurate account of -- 2 of what Marja George said that night to the best of your 3 recollection? 4 A: If it's there, that would be -- come 5 from the tape and it would be transcribed to this paper 6 so it must have been what she said. 7 Q: Thank you. All right. And then I 8 won't repeat that question in respect to the other 9 passages that I want to highlight. 10 Ms. George, obviously is speaking from the 11 heart and I'm wondering if you can shed any light for us 12 as to why she felt fear about going on to Stoney Point. 13 A: Probably read too many newspapers. 14 That's my niece. 15 Q: That's your niece. All right. Had 16 you spoken to her about her concerns prior to the 17 meeting? 18 A: No, because she -- these were her 19 feelings and most of what -- when I've seen people that 20 have expressed that, they never went there. I can't ever 21 recall them talking about going to visit. 22 And there was -- at that time there was so 23 much writeup -- negative writeup -- about our people that 24 were at Stoney Point. 25 Q: And the negative writeup, I gather, is
1971 referring to -- for example, she refers to a strongarm -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- representing the criminal element. 4 A: That's what -- that's what was -- she 5 would have probably -- you know, that's what was in the 6 newspapers. They were talking about a warrior society 7 coming from wherever and people coming in there and I -- 8 and all the times I went there and I say it truthfully, I 9 never seen any guns. 10 I didn't hear anybody, you know, speaking 11 with anger. They were quite content to be where they 12 were. That's where they wanted to be and that's when -- 13 when they moved there and it came out in the newspapers 14 and there's only one (1) newspaper man I'll ever talk to 15 -- I don't know if he's still here -- I won't talk to a 16 newspaper person because of the lies. I won't say lies. 17 They mis -- twist things around when they 18 go to put it in the paper but this one (1) gentleman 19 here, he's always been a good person to write our side of 20 it. But all the writeups, if you -- and you've probably 21 looked through all the newspapers -- there wasn't -- the 22 Oka situation and the Gustafson Lake, that created 23 pictures of people that could have caused fear, but it -- 24 it wasn't that situation here. It was -- I don't ever 25 recall Marja going down to the Base, so hers, I would
1981 assume, and I can ask her because, like I said, I've read 2 this. 3 But really never paid that much to that 4 part because that's all we ever heard, you know, was when 5 people were complaining about other First Nation members 6 being in there. And it goes to a, kind of like an old 7 situation where you and I might have grew up together, 8 and we didn't -- we didn't get along, we might have some 9 hard feelings against each other, -- 10 Q: We didn't see eye to eye. 11 A: Okay. So all of a sudden, you're 12 down at Stony Point and I'm at Kettle Point and all of a 13 sudden you're down over there. And maybe you're going to 14 get even with me, and you could say, you know Bonnie, get 15 out of here, you didn't come in with us, you don't belong 16 here. Now that could have happened. 17 And this is what people just don't 18 understand, when somebody has placed themselves in that 19 position and gave of themselves and the time to go in, in 20 1993, and then expect all the doors be open without any 21 sitting down and talking, you know, that don't take place 22 in life that way. 23 Q: Perhaps that would be naive, is that 24 a fair way of putting it? 25 A: Yes.
1991 Q: I understand. And I should make it 2 clear to you, Mrs. Bressette, that I -- I in no way 3 challenge your evidence that as far as you are concerned, 4 you've neither saw any type of weaponry at Stony Point,-- 5 A: No, I never did. 6 Q: -- nor heard of any weaponry at Stony 7 Point, all right. So I want you to make -- make it clear 8 and understood to you, I don't challenge that, all right? 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: Okay. I want you to turn the page, 11 several pages, actually, let's go to page 17. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: There we go. Dropping down mid-page, 16 it would appear that the Council heard from Carl George. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I gather, having regard to the 19 list of Council Members that appears at the first page, 20 Carl George was not a Councillor, but he was a Band 21 member. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And we've heard some 24 evidence that in the early period when First Nations 25 persons moved onto Stony Point, Carl George assumed a
2001 leadership role for them. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. So there's going to be no 4 doubt that he actually spent quite a bit of time at Stony 5 Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. I want to read, if I can, 8 from what Carl George has to say. First of all he's 9 saying, "I would like to speak on this paper here," and 10 just pausing for a moment, to what paper is he referring? 11 Is he referring to the Statement of Principles that was 12 being discussed that night? 13 A: I -- I would think that's what he was 14 talking about in here. 15 Q: All right. 16 "Three (3) years ago we started talking 17 about this here. A lot of people don't 18 like me right now but I pushed for this 19 because I thought everyone should be 20 treated fairly. There was a lack of 21 communication. The only thing we were 22 trying to do was to get people to pull 23 together. With this paper here, I had 24 a few friends, or I thought I had, but 25 they are against me now. But I don't
2011 know what else to do. I work with 2 Tom..." 3 In pausing, I presume he is speaking of 4 Chief Tom Bressette? 5 A: I assume that's... 6 Q: Okay. 7 "I work with Tom and I'm hated for 8 that, called a traitor. I know I've 9 made a lot of mistakes but I'm man 10 enough to admit that." 11 Excuse me, 12 "... admit them. I hope we can try to 13 pull together. I feel sorry for the 14 people at Stony Point but I'm not 15 wanted there anymore. People are 16 coming in from other reserves and from 17 the States. It was suggested that the 18 Council go there and exert their 19 authority, but everyone has to be 20 behind them, everyone on this reserve. 21 We have to get something resolved here 22 and fairly fast. This has gone on long 23 enough. I lost a brother over this. 24 It's not easy." 25 Now again, these are words spoken from the
2021 heart and are spoken from a man who spent considerable 2 time, I'm going to suggest, at Stony Point. 3 You'd agree with that, Mrs. Bressette? 4 A: Yes, he spent time at Stony Point. 5 Q: And there's an indication here that 6 he was not welcome at Stony Point any more. Are you 7 aware that there was some type of dissension that arose 8 between Carl George and other people who were now living 9 at Stony Point? 10 A: I was not till he came to the meeting 11 and -- and had his voice at the meeting. 12 Q: So this is the first time you had 13 heard any of that? Did you speak with him afterwards? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: About this issue? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Have you ever spoken to him about 18 this issue? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So then I gather you can't assist us 21 as to what he was referring to? 22 A: No. 23 Q: May I ask, was there a particular 24 reason why you didn't follow up with him about that, 25 because to be quite candid, you -- you strike me, and I'm
2031 sure all of us here as someone who is very fair and very 2 empathetic. 3 A: I am always fair and I said in my -- 4 when I assumed what responsibilities was given to me at 5 Kettle Point, I was -- it's my family that's been the one 6 that has had the least of my consideration in most times. 7 But when people get into areas that I consider a 8 conflict, and I can see the way one addresses the other, 9 and one is looking for more support, I'm not going to 10 become part of support on either one of the sides. 11 Q: You, in effect, had been -- did not 12 want to put yourself in a position where you had to 13 choose sides? 14 A: Not choose sides, this needs to be 15 sat and it's our -- in our community, with the community 16 from Aazhoodena needs to sit and discuss this, but you 17 have to go to those kind of discussions with an open mind 18 and a good heart. 19 Other than that, you're just not going to 20 resolve anything. 21 Q: Okay. The next person who speaks is 22 a woman by the name of Barbara George. And again, she is 23 not a Council member, but she is a member of the band. 24 Is that correct? 25 A: Yes.
2041 Q: All right. She states the following: 2 "The past few days what's happening at 3 Stony Point my son has died over Stony 4 Point and what we believe in." 5 I'm pausing there for a moment. Do you 6 know what she's referring to? 7 A: Her son died of some -- his death was 8 up in Owen Sound and it wasn't natural and I don't know 9 the circumstances on it. 10 I just know how he died but I didn't know 11 the circumstances what she's talking about. 12 Q: All right. When you say that he did 13 not die of natural causes, was there a police 14 investigation into his death? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: To your knowledge? All right. 17 "What Nicole said their walk" -- 18 And then I can't read what follows there, 19 "was long. This tragedy is my son-in- 20 laws family, one (1) of his sister-in- 21 laws that got killed." 22 Do you know what she's referring to there? 23 A: I have no idea. 24 Q: Okay. 25 "I don't like those people who are on
2051 our land. I have my birth certificate 2 to prove I was born there. So many 3 things. I am sixty-two (62) now and my 4 dream is some day that I can go back 5 home. Even though I cannot walk that 6 good, I stand behind you and support 7 you. I agree with you, the people who 8 call themselves members of Stony Point 9 are not all from Stony Point. 10 The way they crash through there, my 11 heart is so heavy, it is my home too. 12 I don't believe in violence. I don't 13 want these outsiders who are causing 14 all this disturbance. I used to walk 15 that beach last summer but I don't feel 16 safe now and I hear the gate is locked 17 now so I can't go there. I stand in 18 remembrance for my son. He believed in 19 the return of Stoney Point. How many 20 more deaths are there going to be with 21 those warriors I hear they are called, 22 from the States? I don't like them 23 down there. I think they should be 24 removed." 25 Now, apart from what you have told us
2061 about your knowledge that her son came to pass perhaps as 2 a result of a criminal act, do you know what else she is 3 referring to which causes her to fear attending at Stoney 4 Point? 5 A: No I don't. 6 Q: Did you have any discussions with her 7 about this after she expressed these views? 8 A: Yes, and I just asked her what are 9 you scared of and she said, those warriors down there. 10 And because I did not see any warriors when I was down 11 there, I've seen people from other First Nations, but, 12 the way that she was describing is not what I see when I 13 go down there. 14 So whether that was -- Barbara is Carl's 15 mother. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: So I really -- she talks in here 18 about -- and when she was speaking, she was speaking 19 about the tragedy is my son-in-law's family and one of 20 his sister-in-laws that got killed. I have no idea what 21 she's talking about there. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Because we don't cut somebody off and 24 you know, to get to the point of what we're talking 25 about. She was talking about her fear. And that's --
2071 and I've -- since then, you know, still asked her, but, I 2 think they're in a -- she may have her fear, she says she 3 does, but, I still think there's a lot of -- what people 4 don't understand is personal. 5 Q: I understand. And it may be that her 6 fears are influenced by other experiences that she's had 7 in life as opposed to what she's observed. Is that what 8 you're saying? 9 A: I -- hopefully what she's talking 10 about here is personal, maybe not getting along with one 11 individual or because this one don't get along. There is 12 that person -- there's a lot of personal conflict. 13 Q: I understand. But, in fairness, and 14 I don't say this in any way to be critical, it's more of 15 an observation, you did not explore with her, in any 16 detail, what the basis of her fears was? 17 A: No, because at the time they had -- 18 they had a psychologist and people that are qualified, 19 they had them at the Health Centre there, available for 20 people that wanted to go over and talk. Because I've 21 always felt the worse thing that I could do is give 22 somebody advice that may -- when I know people, give them 23 advice that may do more harm than good. 24 So I always feel, it's better to listen 25 and let that person think about that problem they're
2081 talking about, and try in their own way to resolve it, as 2 long as they've got somebody to support them and listen 3 to them. 4 Q: Okay. 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 6 Commissioner, I know the time is 4:35 and I will be a bit 7 longer obviously with this witness. Would this be an 8 appropriate time to break for the day? 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 10 prefer to break now and finish your examination tomorrow? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I can certainly 12 tell you that I will be a good chunk longer than 5:00 13 p.m. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Past 5:00 15 p.m.? 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well I think 18 we should break now. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That would be my 20 preference, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. It's been a long day. It's time to break for 23 the night. Thank you very much. Ms. Bressette, thank 24 you very much. We'll be back here tomorrow morning at 25 10:00 a.m.
2091 MR. DERRY MILLER: Mr. Commissioner, 2 tomorrow is the last day -- 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Why don't we 4 talk about that for a minute. 5 MR. DERRY MILLER: So perhaps we might 6 want to start at 9:00 and end at 3:30, that would give us 7 the same length of day. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that the 9 preference of everybody in the room? Anybody who's 10 opposed say, aye, or indicate no. Everybody is onside. 11 All right, we'll start tomorrow morning at 12 9:00 and finish at 3:30. 13 MR. DERRY MILLER: Thank you. Ms. 14 Bressette, is nine o'clock okay with you tomorrow 15 morning? 16 THE WITNESS: I was wondering why you 17 don't start every day at nine o'clock. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 19 adjourned until Thursday, September 23rd, at 9:00 a.m. 20 21 (WITNESS RETIRES) 22 23 --- Upon adjourning at 4:36 p.m. 24 25
2101 2 3 4 Certified Correct 5 6 7 __________________________ 8 Wendy Warnock 9 Court Reporter 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25